APEX Express – 11.13.25 – Obbligato with Violinist Shalini Vijayan

13 marras 2025 · KPFA - APEX Express

00:22:23

How has the classical music industry approached representation and how has the new music community forged new paths to embrace diverse musics? On tonight’s episode of Obbligato on APEX Express, Isabel Li is joined by violinist Shalini Vijayan, who discusses her vibrant career and reflects upon the ways contemporary classical music can build community.
Violinist Shalini Vijayan, deemed “a vibrant violinist” by Mark Swed of the Los Angeles Times is an established performer and collaborator on both coasts. Always an advocate for modern music, Shalini was a founding member and Principal Second Violin of Kristjan Jarvi’s Absolute Ensemble, having recorded several albums with them including 2001 Grammy nominee, Absolution. Shalini was also a founding member of the Lyris Quartet, one of Los Angeles’ most beloved chamber ensembles. With Lyris, she has performed regularly at Walt Disney Concert Hall on the Green Umbrella series, for Jacaranda Music and helped to found the Hear Now Music Festival in Venice, California, a festival dedicated to the music of living composers in Los Angeles.
Shalini performed for over a decade with Southwest Chamber Music and can be heard on their Grammy nominated Complete Chamber Works of Carlos Chávez, Vol. 3. She has been a featured soloist with the Los Angeles Master Chorale in Chinary Ung’s Spiral XII and Tan Dun’s Water Passion, including performances at the Ravinia Festival. As a chamber musician, Shalini has collaborated with such luminaries as Billy Childs, Chinary Ung, Gabriela Ortiz, and Wadada Leo Smith on whose Ten Freedom Summers she was a soloist. Shalini joined acclaimed LA ensemble, Brightwork New Music in 2019 and also serves as the curator for Brightwork’s Tuesdays@Monkspace series, a home for contemporary music and performance in Los Angeles. As a teacher, she has been on the faculty of the Nirmita Composers Workshop in both Siem Reap and Bangkok and coaches composition students through the Impulse New Music Festival.
Shalini received her B.M. and M.M. degrees from Manhattan School of Music as a student of Lucie Robert and Ariana Bronne. As a member of the New World Symphony in Miami Beach, Florida, Shalini served as concertmaster for Michael Tilson Thomas, John Adams, Reinbert de Leeuw and Oliver Knussen. She was also concertmaster for the world premiere performances and recording of Steven Mackey’s Tuck and Roll for RCA records in 2000. Shalini was a member of the Pacific Symphony Orchestra for ten seasons and also served as Principal Second Violin of Opera Pacific. She lives in Los Angeles with her son, husband and two dogs and spends her free time cooking Indian food and exploring the culinary landscape of Southern California.
Check out more of her work at:
https://brightworknewmusic.com/tuesdays-at-monk-space/
https://www.lyrisquartet.com/

Transcript
Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the APEX Express.

00:01:03 Isabel Li
You’re listening to Obbligato, which is a segment about the Asian American Pacific Islander community, specifically in classical music.
00:01:11 Isabel Li
I’m your host, Isabel Li, and today joining me is Shalini Vijayan, who is a violinist, established performer, and always an advocate for modern music.
00:01:21 Isabel Li
Shalini is also a founding member of the Lyris Quartet, one of Los Angeles most beloved chamber ensembles. With Lyris, she has performed regularly at Walt Disney Concert Hall on the Green Umbrella series for Jacaranda Music, and helped to found the Here and Now Music Festival in Venice, California, a festival dedicated to the music of living composers in Los Angeles. She joined acclaimed LA ensemble Brightwork New Music in 2019, and also serves as the curator for Brightwork’s Tuesdays at Monk Space series. She currently lives in Los Angeles with her son, husband and two dogs, and spends her free time cooking Indian food and exploring the culinary landscape of Southern California.
00:02:04 Isabel Li
Well, Shalini, thank you so much for joining me in this conversation today.
00:02:09 Shalini Vijayan
I’m so happy to be with you.
00:02:11 Isabel Li
Awesome. I’d like to just get to know you and your story. How do you identify and what communities do you consider yourself a part of?
00:02:18 Shalini Vijayan
I use the pronouns she, her, and I. Um, I identify as South Asian. I grew up in an Indian family. My parents immigrated to the US in the sixties to teach at medical school. And I grew up with a great deal of Indian culture. And I’ve spent a lot of time going back and forth to India from the time that I was very young. You know, it’s interesting because I feel like in LA, where I live and work specifically, there is so much overlap between all of our different musical communities. You know, I went to school in New York, and I feel like there I was much more, I’m very connected to the new music community in New York and felt really kind of entrenched in that at the time I was there. And after coming to LA, I realized that, um, there are a lot of musicians doing so many different things. That’s one of the things I love about Los Angeles, actually. And, you know, I’m definitely very, very rooted in the new music community in LA. And that was where I made my first sort of connections when I first moved to Los Angeles. But I also, you know, worked in an orchestra when I first came to LA. I played in the Pacific Symphony for almost ten seasons, and so I became a part of that community as well. And you know, as the years went on, I also became much more involved in the studio music community of LA studio musicians playing on movie scores, playing on television shows, records, what have you, Awards shows, all sorts of things. And these are all very distinct communities in LA in music. But I see a ton of overlap between all of them. There are so many incredibly versatile musicians in Los Angeles that people are able to really very easily move from one of these groups to the other and, you know, with a great deal of success. And I feel like it gives us so much variety in our lives as musicians in LA, you don’t feel like you’re ever just in one lane. You can really occupy all these different kinds of spaces.
00:04:23 Isabel Li
Right, yeah. So you’re classically trained, from what I know, and you describe yourself as an advocate for modern music. So why modern music?
00:04:33 Shalini Vijayan
That’s a great question. I have have had to answer this question quite a bit over the years, especially to non-musicians. And it’s always an interesting story for me. You know, as a violinist in particular, you know, we have such a storied history of repertoire and pedagogy, and there is such an incredible, um, library of music that we have access to from the very standard classical repertoire. And there is a great deal to be learned about the instrument and about music from playing all that repertoire. I think at some point when I was in high school, I started to become interested in more modern music. And actually I grew up in Davis in Northern California.
My parents both taught at the university there, at the medical school and in Sacramento. Nearby there was a festival of modern American music that I think still goes on to this day at Cal State University, Sacramento. And it was really a great festival. And at that time, you know, they would bring professional artists, they’d have composers, they’d have commissions, all sorts of things. But at the time that I was like in high school, they also had a junior division to the festival, and I was asked to play a couple pieces in the Festival of, um, Modern Works, and I can’t remember at this time what the pieces were, but it left such a huge impression on me. And I think what I really took away from that experience as a kid is that in my studies as a violinist, I was always being asked to sort of live up to this history and this legacy of violin music and violin playing in Western classical music. And it’s a very high bar. And it’s, um, you know, of course, there’s so much great stuff there. But there was something so freeing about playing this music that had either never been played or not been recorded. So there was nothing to reference in terms of listening to a recording, um, and listening to how you, you know, quote, should be playing it that it made me feel, uh, you know, all this, this freedom to really interpret the music, how I felt, rather than feeling like I had to live up to a standard that had been set for me, you know, decades or centuries before. And I think that really something really clicked for me with that, that I wanted to have that kind of freedom when I, when I was playing. And so from there on out, um, you know, when I went to college and I really sought out opportunities in new music as much as I could.
00:07:00 Isabel Li
So you were first exposed to new music when you were in high school. Did that influence your decision to become a musician at all? Or were you already set on becoming a musician and that was just part of what shaped your works over the years.
00:07:15 Shalini Vijayan
I think by that time, I had already decided that I wanted to be a musician. I mean, as you know, so many of us as musicians and I think particularly string players, we decide so young because we start our instruments at such a young age and we start studying so early. Um, that I think by that time I, I had decided I wanted to do music, but this sort of opened another door for me that made me realize that it wasn’t just one path in music necessarily. I think it’s very easy as a, as a kid and as a violinist to think you admire these great soloists that you see and, you know, people like Perlman and, you know, Isaac Stern, who were the stars of the time when I was growing up. But, you know, you get to be in high school and you realize that hasn’t happened yet. It’s probably not going to happen. And so, you know, what’s then then what’s your path forward? How do you find a life in music if you’re not going to be one of these stars? And I think, you know, new music really opened up that opportunity for me. And yeah, made me look at things a little differently for sure.
00:08:18 Isabel Li
And currently you’re in the contemporary classical music ensemble, Brightwork newmusic, and you curate the ensemble’s concert series, Tuesdays @ Monk Space. So how do you go about curating concerts with music by contemporary or living composers? What do you look for?
00:08:33 Shalini Vijayan
Well, right now I’m really focused on trying to represent our new music community in LA at Monk Space, which is such, you know, we have such a diverse community of musicians, not just in the makeup of who the people are making the music or writing the music, but also in just the styles of music. And so I think I try to really represent a very diverse set of aesthetics in our season. Um, you know, everything from, you know, last season we had, uh, Niloufar Shiri, who is a traditional Persian kamancheh player, but she also she can play very in a very traditional way, but she also plays with a jazz pianist. And, you know, it does all this very improvisatory stuff. And, you know, then we would have other programs where everything is very much written out and very through, composed and you know, it’s been a very wide variety. And, you know, when I try to build the season, I try to make sure that it’s really balanced in terms of, you know, the different types of things you’ll be hearing because not every audience member is going to want to engage with every type of music. Um, or, you know, if we if we really stuck to one style and it was just in that language for the whole season, then I feel like we would, you know, alienate potential audience members. But with this, I feel like if we can bring people in for one concert and they’re really into it, then hopefully they’ll come to something else that is new and different for them and be exposed to something that they may really get into after that. So yeah, I think diversity and variety is really where I try to start from.
00:10:09 Isabel Li
How does that engage the community? Have you observed audience reception to this type of new music when there are composers from all different types of backgrounds?
00:10:20 Shalini Vijayan
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that each composer and each artist brings their own community into the space, which and so that’s another. I feel like another strong reason why I try to make things very different from concert to concert. And, you know, we have some younger players who come in and bring in, you know, everyone from college students to, you know, their friends and family. And then, you know, really established composers. Like this season we have Bill Roper, who is kind of a legend in the music community in LA. Mult instrumentalist and composer who has been around for decades. And, you know, I think people will come out just because they want to see him and he’s such a draw. And, um, you know, I, I also would love to be able to incorporate more world music into the series. Like I said, we did do Niloufar concert, which I felt like I really hoped would like engage with the Persian community in LA as well. And a couple seasons ago we had Rajna Swaminathan, who is, I just think, an incredible artist. Um, she plays mridangam, which is a South Indian percussion instrument, but she also writes for Western instruments, uh, and herself. And we had her and a pianist and then Ganavya, who’s a vocalist who’s amazing. And, you know, Ganavya had her own following. So we had and Rajna has her own following. So we had a whole full audience that night of people who I had never seen in the space before. And that was for me. That’s a success because we’re bringing in new friends and new engagement. And, um, I was really excited about that. When I’m able to make those kinds of connections with new people, then that feels like a success to me.
00:12:05 Isabel Li
Certainly.
00:12:06 Isabel Li
Let’s hear one of Shalini’s performances. This is an excerpt from the 10th of William Kraft’s “Encounters”, a duologue for violin and marimba, performed here by Shalini Vijayan with Southwest Chamber Music.
00:12:20 [MUSIC – Encounters X: Duologue for Violin & Marimba]
00:17:18 Isabel Li
An excerpt from William Kraft’s Encounters, the 10th of which is called Duologue for Violin and Marimba, that was performed by Shalini Vijayan, the violinist, with Southwest Chamber Music.
00:17:31 Isabel Li
And Shalini is here with me in conversation today. We’ve been discussing contemporary music and her involvement in the new music scene, specifically in Los Angeles.
00:17:40 Isabel Li
Music is all about community, drawing people together. So going back to how you describe yourself as an advocate for modern music, what are other ways that you have advocated for modern music besides curating the concert series?
00:17:53 Shalini Vijayan
Well, over the years, um, you know, I feel like in all the ensembles I’ve been in, there’s been a real focus on commissioning composers and on performing works that have not been, uh, either performed or recorded before. And I feel like the only way to really get the music out there is to, obviously, is to play it and hopefully to be able to record it. We’ve worked especially with the lyrics quartet. We’ve worked with so many young composers in LA either just strictly, you know, contemporary classical composers or even film composers who, um, have works that they’d like to have recorded. And, you know, it’s been great to see a lot of those people go on to really amazing things and to be a part of their journey, uh, and to help support them. And, uh, the other thing that the quartet has been heavily involved in and now Bright Work Ensemble has been involved in as well, is the Here Now music festival, which has been going on in LA for well over a decade now. We were involved in the first, um, seasons of that festival. We’ve been one of the resident ensembles since the very beginning, and that festival is dedicated to the music of LA and Southern California composers. And, um, we have a call for scores every year that we, the four of us in the quartet, are part of the panel that reviews all the scores, along with a lot of our other colleagues, um, who are involved with the festival, and Hugh Levick, who is the artistic director of the festival and has we’ve worked side by side with him on this for a very long time. And that’s also been a fantastic avenue for, um, meeting new composers, hearing new works, having them performed. And the thing I always say about that festival every time it comes around, usually in the spring we have at least three concerts. It’s this incredible coming together of the new music community in Southern California, where all these great composers and all these amazing players come together and play these series of concerts, because there’s such a vast number of pieces that end up getting programmed. They can’t rely on just like one group or one or two groups to play them. So it really pulls in a lot of players from all over town. And I don’t know, it always just feels like a really fun time, a fun weekend for all of us to see each other and connect. And, um, and again, just build our community to be even stronger.
00:20:20 Isabel Li
That’s really cool. How do you ignite interest in new music? Because this is a genre that I think is slightly underrepresented or just underrepresented in general in both the classical music community and the music industry as a whole.
00:20:35 Shalini Vijayan
That’s a great question, and I think it’s a really important question for our whole industry and community. How do you engage people in new music and get them into a concert? Um, you know, I think one of the biggest hurdles for classical music in general, I will say, um, when I talk to people about why they don’t want to come to a concert or why they don’t want to, you know, let’s say, go see the LA Phil or, you know, wherever, whatever city they’re in, the major cultural music institution. I think there is a misconception generally that, oh, it’s, you know, I have to be dressed a certain way or I it’s going to be really stuffy. And, um, I, you know, I don’t know what to wear or I don’t know how I’m supposed to dress or how I’m supposed to act when I’m in the concert. Am I going to clap at the wrong time? You know, is it going to be really long? And, you know, and I and I get it, you know, I mean, I understand why that would be uncomfortable for a lot of people.
And it’s not, um, it’s something that necessarily everyone has grown up with or that it’s been a part of their life. So I think it’s really up to us, as you know, when we’re on the side of programming concerts or putting together festivals or whatever, um, that we make things more accessible in terms of, um, concert length and interaction with audience. And, um, you know, I think it’s I know I’ve been told so many times and I really think it’s important that I think audiences love it when performers talk to them, when they talk about the music and, and set things up for a listener. I think that puts a kind of context on things that makes it so much easier for perhaps a new audience member, someone who’s never come to a concert before to feel at ease and feel like, okay, I know what I’m getting into.
One of our, actually our former executive director at Brightwork, Sarah Wass, who was fantastic, and I was very happy to work with when I was just starting out programming, Monk Space had the idea of putting on the program the running time of the pieces, and I think even that is just something that, like, can prepare people for what they’re getting into when they’re about to listen to something new. And in terms of the music itself, I think that if someone, especially a younger person, doesn’t feel like they have any connection to Beethoven or Brahms or Mozart, they might actually feel more connected to someone who is their age or a little older.
Someone who has had similar life experiences to them, or grown up in the same era as them, rather than someone who grew up, you know, in the seventeen hundreds. You know, there can be more of a real connection there, and that that person is writing this music and reflection of their life and their experiences. And, um, you know, again, I think that kind of context is important for a listener. And yeah. And then just lastly, I would say also, I feel like our space at Monk space is very inviting. It’s very low key. It’s, um, you know, it’s casual, it’s comfortable. Role. Um, we have, you know, snacks and a bar and, you know, everyone is very relaxed at intermission and has a good time. And I mean, for me, every time we host one of those concerts, I feel like I’m hosting a little party, you know? That’s what it feels like for me. And that’s what I want it to feel like for the audience as well.
00:23:52 Isabel Li
That brings up a really good point in that new music can make classical music or a new classical music, contemporary music, more accessible to different audiences. And certainly I’ve definitely heard the complaint from people over the years about classical music being a little too uptight. Would you say that these are two different genres?
00:24:11 Shalini Vijayan
I think that there is overlap, and I think, you know, for an ensemble like ours, like Brightwork, we have chosen to make our focus new music. So that’s our thing. That’s what we do. Um, and, uh, all of our concerts and our programming reflect that. Very rarely do we do anything that’s not considered a contemporary piece. Um, but, you know, if you do look at some of our major institutions, like I think the LA Phil and I think the San Francisco Symphony, um, earlier, you know, like in the nineties under MTT, really started to pave the way for incorporating contemporary music into a standard classical format. And, you know, I think that’s been very important. And I think it’s really changed the way that orchestras have programmed across the country. And there has been such a nurturing of contemporary music in larger spaces. Now that I think that kind of overlap has started to happen much more frequently. I think that in more conservative settings, sometimes there’s pushback against that. And even even, you know, in some of the places that I play, you know, sometimes with with the lyrics quartet, um, we are asked to just purely program standard classical repertoire, and we will occasionally throw in a little short piece, you know, just to try and put something in there, you know, something that’s very accessible. Um, and, uh, you know that we know the audience will like so that we can help them, you know, kind of get over that fear of connecting to a newer piece. And I, I think in some ways, that’s where the path forward lies, is that we have to integrate those things, you know, in order to keep kind of the old traditions of classical music alive. I think we have to keep the newer tradition alive as well, and find a way to put them in the same space.
00:26:00 Isabel Li
I certainly agree with that.
00:26:01 Isabel Li
Let’s hear more of Shalini’s work in new music. This is a performance of the first movement of Atlas Pumas by Gabriela Ortiz. Violinist Shalini Vijayan is joined by percussionist Lynn Vartan.
00:26:18 [MUSIC – Atlas Pumas, mvt 1 by Gabriela Ortiz]
00:29:21 Isabel Li
The first movement of Gabriela Ortiz’s Atlas Pumas played here by violinist Shalini Vijian, and Lynn Vartan plays the marimba.
00:29:30 Isabel Li
And Shalini is actually joining us here for a conversation about new music, performances, identity, and representation.
00:29:38 Isabel Li
Many Asian American Pacific Islander artists in music have varying relationships between their art and their identity. I was wondering, to what extent do you feel that perhaps your South Asian identity intersects or influences the work that you do with music?
00:29:54 Shalini Vijayan
Growing up, um, you know, I grew up in a in a university town in Northern California and, you know, a lot of highly educated and, you know, kids of professors and, you know, but still not the most terribly diverse place. And then going into classical music. And this was, you know, in the early nineties when I went to college, um, it still was not a particularly it was very much not a diverse place at all. And, um, there certainly were a lot of Asian students at, um, Manhattan School of Music where I did my my studies.
But I would say it was a solid decade before I was ever in any sort of classical music situation where there was another South Asian musician. I very, very rarely met any South Asian musicians, and it wasn’t until I went to the New World Symphony in the early late nineties, early two thousand, and I was a musician there. I was a fellow in that program there for three years that I walked into the first rehearsal, and there were three other South Asian, I think, of Indian descent musicians in the orchestra, and I was absolutely blown away because I literally had not, um, other than here and there at some festivals, I had not met any other South Asian classical musicians.
So it was really like that was the hallmark moment for me. It was a really big deal. And coming with my family, coming from India, you know, there is such a strong tradition of Indian classical music, of Carnatic music and Hindustani music. And, um, it’s such a long, long tradition. And, you know, the people who have studied it and lived with it are, you know, they study it their whole lives to be proficient in it. And it’s such an incredible, incredible art form and something that I admire so much. And I did as a kid. Take a few lessons here and there. I took some Carnatic singing lessons, um, and a little bit of tabla lessons when I was very young. Um, but I think somewhere in middle school or high school, I kind of realized that it was, for me at least, I wasn’t, um, able to put enough time into both because both of them, you know, playing the violin in a Western classical style and then studying Indian classical music require a tremendous amount of effort and a tremendous amount of study. And I at that point chose to go with Western classical music, because that’s what I’d been doing since I was five years old. But there has always kind of been this longing for me to be more connected to Indian classical music. Um, I’ll go back again to Rajna. When I presented Rajna Swaminathan on Monk Space a couple of years ago, it was a really meaningful thing for me, because that’s kind of what I’d always wanted to see was a joining together of that tradition, the Indian tradition with the Western tradition. And, um, I’m so happy that I’m starting to see that more and more with a lot of the artists that are coming up now. But at the time when I was young, it just it felt almost insurmountable that to to find a way to bring the two together. And, um, I remember very clearly as a kid listening to this, um, there was an album that Philip Glass did with Ravi Shankar, and I thought that was so cool at the time. And I used to listen to it over and over again because I just again, I was so amazed that these things could come together and in a, in a kind of successful way. Um, but yeah, there is, you know, there there’s a part of me that would still love to go back and explore that more that, that side of it. Um, and but I will say also, I’m very happy now to see a lot more South Asian faces when I, you know, go to concerts on stage and in the audience. And, you know, a lot of composers that I’ve worked with now, um, of South Asian descent, it’s been, you know, I’ve worked with Reena Esmail and Anuj Bhutani and Rajna and, um, there’s so many more, and I’m so glad to see how they’re all incorporating their connection to their culture to, to this, you know, Western kind of format of classical music. And they’re all doing it in different ways. And it’s it’s really amazing.
00:34:22 Isabel Li
That’s fantastic.
00:34:24 Isabel Li
I was wondering if you could maybe describe what this merging or combination of different styles entails. Do you think this makes it more accessible to audiences of two different cultures?
00:34:36 Shalini Vijayan
For me, one example, before I started running the series at Tuesdays at Monk Space, Aron Kallay, who is our Bright Work artistic director, had asked me to come and do a solo show on Monk Space, which I did in November of 2019.
00:34:52 Shalini Vijayan
And at the time, I wanted to commission a piece that did exactly that, that, that, um, involved some sort of Indian classical instrument or kind of the language of Indian classical music. And so I actually did reach out to Reena Esmail, and she wrote me a very cool piece called blaze that was for tabla and violin. Um, and I really had so much fun doing that. And Reena, Reena really has a very fluid way of writing for the violin, which she actually was a violinist, too. So she’s she’s really good at doing that. But being able to write for any melodic instrument or for the voice, which she does quite a bit as well, and incorporating sort of the tonality of Indian classical music, which obviously has its own scales and, um, has its own harmonic, harmonic world that is different from the Western world, um, but finds a way to translate that into the written note notation that we require as, uh, Western classical musicians. And, you know, I think that’s the biggest gap to bridge, is that in Indian classical music, nothing is notated. Everything is handed down in an oral tradition, um, over the generations. And for us, everything is notated. And in Indian classical music, you know, there’s much more improvisation. And now, of course, with modern classical music, there now is a lot more improvisation involved. But in our old standard tradition, obviously there isn’t. And in the way that we’re trained, mostly we’re not trained to be improvisers. And um, so it’s it was great. She has a great way of writing so that it kind of sounds like things are being tossed off and sounding sounds like they’re being improvised, but they are actually fully notated, um, which I really appreciated.
00:36:50 Isabel Li
Yeah.
00:36:51 Isabel Li
So your career has spanned orchestras, recording ensembles, chamber music. Having had so much experience in these types of performance, what does representation in classical music mean to you?
00:37:04 Shalini Vijayan
Well, representation is is very important because we’re talking about a tradition that was built on white men from centuries ago, European white men. And and it’s again, it’s an incredible tradition and there’s so much great repertoire. But I’m going to circle back to what you were saying or what you asked me about connecting to audiences and, you know, connecting to audiences with new music. It’s I think people like to see themselves reflected in the art that they choose. They choose to consume. And, you know, whether that’s movies or television or music, I think that’s how you connect with your audience is by being a bit of a mirror.
I think the only way that we can really continue to connect with a diverse audience is by having that type of diverse representation on our stages and on our recordings. And again, also not just the people, but the types of music, too. You know, musical tastes run wide, genres run wide as well. And it’s I think It’s good for all of us to be exposed to a lot of different kinds of music, to figure out what we connect with the most. And, um, yeah, the only way we can do that is by really, you know, opening our arms to a, a much wider variety of styles of music. And so I, you know, I mentioned improvisation, improvisation earlier. And I think that is something that’s now starting to happen so much more in modern classical music. And, you know, I think there’s something about the energy that a player has when they’re improvising that is maybe not something that an audience member could quantify verbally, but there’s a looseness and a freedom there that I think, you know, for a lot of audience members, they probably really can connect to. And, you know, that’s a lot of why people go and listen to jazz is because there’s so much freedom and there’s so much improvisation.
I’ve been very lucky to be able to work with, um, Wadada Leo Smith, who’s a trumpet player and composer. I’ve worked with him for probably almost ten years now. And um, through Wadada, actually, I have learned to become much more comfortable with improvising on stage and not within a jazz language of any kind or any kind of harmonic structure necessarily, but within the language of his music, which is very unique and very open and very free and, um, but also has a really strong core in its connection to history. And, um, you know, he’s written a lot of amazing works about the civil rights movement and about a lot of, you know, important moments in history for our country. And, um, that’s been a real learning experience for me to connect with him in that, in that way and learn from him and learn to be more comfortable with improvisation. Because I think growing up, improvisation for me always meant jazz, and that was not a language I was comfortable in. And um, or even, you know, jazz or rock music or folk music or whatever, you know, it was just not something that came naturally to me as a kid to, I mean, I listened to all of it. I listened to everything when I was a kid, but I never played in any of those styles. And I think the older you get, the scarier it gets to start branching out in those ways. But, um, I think, uh, that’s been a an incredible, like, new branch of my life in the last decade has been working with Wadada.
[MUSIC – “Dred Scott, 1857,” from Ten Freedom Summers, by Wadada Leo Smith]
00:42:23 Isabel Li
An excerpt of Wadada Leo Smith’s music to give you a sense of the jazz influences in these types of contemporary new music pieces that also touch on pieces of history. This was an excerpt from his album, Ten Freedom Summers, which also consists of compositions based on pieces of American history. For example, what we just heard was from a piece called Dred Scott, 1857.
00:42:49 Isabel Li
Now that I realize that we’ve been having a conversation about new music, I realize that, hmm, when does new music really start? So if you take a look at maybe music history, when does new music really become new music?
00:43:07 Shalini Vijayan
I guess it depends on who you ask, probably. Um, it’s it’s pretty recent. You know, it has to be really legitimately pretty new. And, um, again, you know, if you ask an audience member, um, and I think of some of my friends or family who are maybe who are not musicians who come to concerts, and I’m always so interested in talking to them and hearing their opinions about things. Um, you know, they will listen to Bartok and say, oh, that sounds like new music to me. But, you know, Bartok, Bartok passed away a long time ago, and it’s, you know, and for me, that’s more like canon now. You know, that’s like now for me, part of the the standard repertoire. But there was a time when Bartok was new music. And I think for, you know, maybe the listeners who are more comfortable with the very diatonic, you know, world of Beethoven, Brahms, Mozart, then something like Bartok really does sound so modern for me. Boy, maybe around the time that minimalism started, you know, John Adams and Steve Reich, Terry Riley, Philip Glass, all of that for me feels like maybe that’s the older like the The edge of new music now even though that was that would be the eighties, probably seventies 80s, you know, but that we’re talking about like, you know, fifty years ago. So yeah, I mean, it’s not that new, but those are all still living composers. So maybe, maybe that’s part of what it is for me is that it’s the composers of our era, the composers who are alive, who we can communicate with and ask questions of. And, um, you know, at the very least, if you can’t talk to John Adams, you can talk to somebody who has worked directly with him and get their impressions of how something should be played, um, as opposed to composers who have been gone for hundreds of years. And you can’t have that level of communication with them. I think that, for me is what new music, new music is about. It’s about working with living composers and, um, having that type of interaction.
00:45:15 Isabel Li
Yeah. So would the word or the phrase contemporary classical music, be a little oxymoronic in a sense?
00:45:26 Shalini Vijayan
No, I don’t think so. I think it’s still part of the same tradition. Um, yeah. I really do think it is, because I think there is a lineage there. Um, for a lot of composers, not all of them, um, that I mean, I think particularly if you’re writing for, let’s say, an orchestra or a string quartet or sort of one of these very standard classical ensembles. Um, even if you’re writing in a very new language and you’re writing in a very different way, I think there is still a through line to the canon of classical music. I guess for me, new music and classical music are not mutually exclusive. I think they can be the same. So I don’t I don’t think they’re totally different. I think that there is a lot of a lot of overlap.
00:46:16 Isabel Li
For sure, considering how new music fits into the classical music or the classical music industry as a whole. Have you noticed any sorts of shifts in the classical music industry in the past several decades in regards to diversity, equity, inclusion? And have you just noticed any changes?
00:46:35 Shalini Vijayan
I have noticed some changes. I mean, I think that most organizations in this country are making an effort to be more inclusive in their programming now. And, um, you know, another another South Asian composer who I just think is fantastic is Nina Shekhar. And, um, she has had pieces played by the New York Phil for the last couple seasons. I mean, you know, so on on major, major stages, I feel like now I’m seeing more representation and that is definitely Encouraging and, um, you know, uh, same for Anuj and Rajna and Reena. They’ve all, you know, had their works done by major ensembles. And, um, I think I think there is definitely movement in that direction, for sure. I think it could always be more.
I think also for women and women composers, women performers, I think that has also always been a struggle to find enough representation of women composers and you know, especially if like as I mentioned before, when you’re in a situation where an organization asks you to program a concert, like, let’s say, for our quartet and wants much more standard repertoire than it does limit you, you know, how because there isn’t much from the older canon. You know, there is. You know, there’s Fanny Mendelssohn and Clara Schumann and, um, you know, I think in the last five to ten years they’ve both been played a lot more, which is great. But, you know, I think, uh, there’s so many amazing female composers right now that I think are starting to get much more recognition. And I think that just needs to be more, more and more, um, but, uh, you know, that is why, again, like on those programs, sometimes we try to just sneak one modern piece in because it’s important for those voices to be heard as well. But yes, I do see some forward movement in that direction with, um, classical programming. And, you know, you just have to hope that the intent is always genuine in those situations. And I think, um, you know, I think that’s the most important thing. And giving a platform to those voices is really important.
00:48:59 Isabel Li
How would you go about arts advocacy during this current time when, well, the arts are being defunded and devalued by our current administration and how everything is going on right now?
00:49:10 Shalini Vijayan
Yeah, it’s really, really difficult right now. And, um, you know, I think a lot of arts organizations are losing a lot of government funding. Obviously, I know of a couple projects that lost their NEA funding because of DEI, and which is so disheartening. And, um, I think, you know, there’s going to be a lot of leaning on private donors to try and, uh, make up that difference or, you know, private foundations to make up the difference in funding, hopefully. And, um, uh, you know, it’s yeah, it’s scary. It’s a scary time. And I think, you know, even for private funding and, um, private donors, it’s, you know, everyone is feeling stressed and feeling concerned about our future right now, just as a country. and there’s so much uncertainty. And, um, but I think people who really rely on the arts for all the things that it can provide, you know, an escape and pleasure and, you know, stimulation of a different kind. And especially in a time like this, when you want to be able to get away from maybe what’s going on around you, you know, I’m hoping we can find a way to really come together and, um, kind of, you know, rally around each other and find a way to support each other. But, um, I think it is going to be hard for the next few years if we can’t find ways to replace that funding that so many people have lost. And I certainly don’t think that anyone wants to back away from the progress that’s been made with inclusion and representation, you know, just to get funding. So I know we have to be very creative with our path ahead and find a way to, to keep doing what we’re doing in this current environment.
00:51:07 Isabel Li
Yeah, on a brighter note, I read about your work with Lyris Quartet earlier this year when you presented a concert with Melodia Mariposa called Altadena Strong with the Lyris Quartet, raising funds for those who have been affected by the LA fires. Can you talk a bit about the power of music? And we’re going to end on a stronger note here about the power of music in bringing communities together and accelerating community healing.
00:51:31 Shalini Vijayan
Well, I have to say that concert was really a special one for us. You know, um, so many musicians were affected by the fires in LA. And, you know, I, I’ve lived in LA for over twenty years now, almost twenty five years and, um, certainly seen my share of wildfires and disasters, but this one hit so much more close to home than any of the other ones have. And, you know, I know at least twenty five people who lost their homes in between the Palisades and Altadena and Altadena in particular.
When I moved to LA, it was a place where a lot of musicians were moving to because you could it was cheaper and you could get a lot of space, and it’s beautiful. And, you know, they really built a beautiful community there among all the musicians out there. And it’s just heartbreaking, um, to see how many of them have lost everything. And I have to say, Irina Voloshina, who is the woman who runs Melodia Mariposa, and just an amazing violinist and an amazing, wonderful, warm, generous person. You know, she started that series in her driveway during COVID as a way to just keep music going during the pandemic, and it really turned into something so great. And she’s, you know, got a whole organization with her now and puts on multiple concerts a year. And when she asked us if we would play that concert for the community in Altadena is, you know, there’s no question that we were going to do it. I mean, we absolutely jumped at the chance to support her and support the organization and that community. And people really came out for that concert and were so excited to be there and were so warm and, um, you know, and and she talked to the crowd and really connected with everybody on a very personal level, because she also lost her home in Altadena and, um, you know, it was it was a really meaningful show for all of us. And again, those are the moments where you realize that you can use this art to really connect with people that you may have never met before and show your your love for them, you know, through music, as corny as that may sound, but it’s true.
00:53:54 Isabel Li
Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much, Shalini, for sharing your visions, your knowledge with new music and community building with us today. Thank you so much for being on Obbligato.
00:54:07 Shalini Vijayan
Thank you so much for having me, Isabel. It was really a pleasure.
00:54:10 Isabel Li
What a wonderful conversation that was with LA-based violinist Shalini Vijayan. If you go to kpfa.org, you can check out more of her work. I put the links to two of her ensembles, Brightwork New Music and Lyris Quartet up on kpfa.org. And thank you for listening to our conversation here on Obbligato on Apex Express.
00:54:32 Isabel Li
We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.
00:54:42 Isabel Li
APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, and Cheryl Truong. Tonight’s show was produced by Isabel Li. Thanks to the team at KPFA for their support. Have a great night.
[OUTRO MUSIC]
The post APEX Express – 11.13.25 – Obbligato with Violinist Shalini Vijayan appeared first on KPFA.

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APEX Express – 6.4.26 – Food Justice
4 kesä· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight’s APEX Express show is focused on food justice and Asian America. First, Host Miko Lee talks with artist Macy Tran about their work on food as a form of resistance, and then she speaks with researcher Dr. Milkie Vu around her work on food insecurity and Asian American communities.

Show TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:30] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we’re talking about food justice and Asian America. First, we talk with artist Macy Tran about their work on food as a form of resistance, and then we speak with researcher Dr. Milkie Vu around her work on food insecurity and Asian American communities. Join us tonight as we delve into food justice. Welcome to Apex Express, Macy Tran, I’m so happy to meet you.

[00:01:03] Macy Tran: I’m happy to meet you as well, Miko. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:06] Miko Lee: I just wanna start with the question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:01:13] Macy Tran: I come from a legacy of powerful Vietnamese people who were born and raised in Vietnam and now are part of the diaspora in Minnesota. I come from food peoples and healers and chefs and creatives of all sorts who have learned how to make ends meet and to adapt and to work with what they have. I come from a long line of people who have loved through food and who have used food as a means of cultural preservation and education and survival, which has now been passed on to me. There’s so much to say about who I come from. My grandparents have stories of survival and resilience throughout the American War in Vietnam. And it’s only because of just their love and the decisions they’ve made on behalf of their love that I am here today. My parents own a restaurant in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Vietnamese restaurant called Pho 79/Caravelle That has a 40 plus year legacy of serving Chinese and Vietnamese food to the Minneapolis community. It started with my grandma’s brother, and then it passed down to my grandma. And now my grandma has since passed and has passed it down to my father and my mother. And so I like to say that it’s restaurant people who raised me. I grew up sleeping in the booths and all of the aunties, even though they weren’t blood aunties were my aunties. Because our survival was just so foundationally just predicated on food and what we served and shared with others, and also what we ate at home and the celebrations that we would have both at the restaurant and at home. This is really what makes me.

[00:03:20] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. Do you wanna talk more about the legacy part?

[00:03:24] Macy Tran: I carry a legacy of peoples who really know the importance of food and the way we use food to care and support each other. Even in the most hard of times when my family was. On a boat with 200 other people and didn’t know if they were going to survive when they kind of landed abroad. The shores of Indonesia, food has been with them throughout it all, and it is how I was raised to love and care for people. I see the ways that food is not just a means for sustenance, but also as joy, as creativity, as love, and I carry all of those, decisions and skills with me.

[00:04:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I learned first about your book when I read a piece that you wrote for 18 million Rising, and I’m wondering if you could just talk about how that piece around food as a form of resistance, how did that come about?

[00:04:33] Macy Tran: I have a friend who works with 18 million Rising, and since the federal occupation in Minneapolis, I’ve been doing a lot of food justice organizing here. And it has been a way in which I have seen and expressed just the skills and love that I give to my community. I was just feeling compelled to give food. That was what I knew. In the past two months as my friends have been going out on the streets following ICE agents around legally observing, I have felt that my role in this movement is to feed frontline folks who are out doing the work and also feeding our community during a time in which it’s very scary and difficult to leave your home without fear of being abducted. In Minneapolis we have created systems of, food resource sharing that have been really powerful to witness and experience and to get engaged with. And so one way that I’ve been doing it is I’ve been cooking community meals most Sundays, sometimes Saturdays that feed 200 plus people.

[00:05:47] I am providing delicious food for my friends who are out on the streets and coming home and hungry and cold. And I also helped facilitate and organize a food distribution at my parents’ restaurant after the murder of Alex Preti I really wanted to not just be involved in like acting and responding to what was happening but as an artist, as a creative, I felt the need for also remembering and preserving and reflecting about what’s been going on in Minneapolis. I kept being pulled in all these different directions and was organizing over here and supporting this community and doing this. And then when my friend reached out to me at 18 million Rising,. It was such a great opportunity for me to really reflect on my practice of food as resistance and food as justice. I’ve been a food writer in the Twin Cities for about the past three years. Food, events, I mostly cover restaurant stories and festivals and theater and all that sort of stuff in the BIPOC community here in the Twin Cities. And I realized writing this piece that this was the first time in a while, that I had written something actually for myself from my heart that was in my voice. Without an editor saying, no, you have to say it this way. No, we have to cut that part out. No, you use too many words here, and so I really took this piece as an opportunity to share what my life was like here in my own words and my own experiences. And just use it as a moment to really reflect and share the things that I’m learning and the way that I am practicing and using food as a bridge to healing and transformation during this time in which we are ripe for needing that.

[00:07:47] Miko Lee: Can you roll back a little bit and talk to me about how you got started as an organizer? What, when you first learned about social justice work and what pulled you in?

[00:07:56] Macy Tran: It definitely wasn’t the way that I was raised. I was born in the us my parents were born in Vietnam and then came over to the US and they really raised me with the mentality of you just put your head down and you work hard and you don’t really get involved. And like, yeah, you care for others, but mostly you care for your family. I was actually someone who was always butting heads with my family because I was like, do you not see all of these issues that are happening in the world? Like the issue, the systems that were implicated in. We have to care beyond just ourselves, and we would always butt heads about that.

[00:08:33] Miko Lee: At what age did that start?

[00:08:35] Macy Tran: Oh, probably when I was a teenager. around that time I was finding my voice. and it wasn’t until college that I really started putting words and frameworks and theory into what I have already witnessed in my family and my community, which is just community care and the ways that facilitates justice and transformation I would say since college that I really started actively organizing primarily on campus. I went to a smaller liberal arts school. So organizing and just getting involved in our community in that way was pretty easy. And like after I graduated college, I spent five years in Southeast Asia, one year in Vietnam, and then four years in Thailand where I was primarily working at the intersections of education and refugee justice and environmental justice. I got to meet all sorts of organizers and activists from across the region who have taught me. Really everything, a lot of what I know about organizing and what it means to show up specifically within a Southeast Asian context and how to use kind of my feet in both worlds, both my American political identity and my Southeast Asian political identity.

[00:09:59] And to merge those for the better and for my community. So I would say that. I’ve always had a big heart ever since I was little. And actually my parents were always like, you are too trusting. You people are gonna take advantage of you in the world. And I was like, I just wanna live in this world with so much love. And the way that they taught me to do that was. Through food and through reliability and just what it means to show up consistently for my people. And so in some ways it was all baked into me, even though they might not see that and they might not have raised me in that way. I see the ways in which they have sacrificed for love and nourished their families through food and made incredibly scary risks for the freedom of their family and for their people, and for a new life. And I just feel like I’m walking in their footsteps, doing the same even if they might not feel that way.

[00:11:09] Miko Lee: So did you have to talk your family and the restaurant into getting involved in the food support work for activists in Minnesota?

[00:11:18] Macy Tran: it wasn’t a challenging conversation to have and I was surprised by that.

[00:11:22] Miko Lee: Oh, great.

[00:11:23] Macy Tran: Um, yeah, my parents have been, actually, this is the most politically active and vocal I have seen them. It’s really incredible. I would say that for a lot of actually the Vietnamese community that I’ve been witnessing in Minneapolis, like they’re saying things that I never thought that they would say. They’re putting analysis like what together? The Vietnamese community is, I would say, skews at least the older generation, I should say. The older generation of Viet folks skews pretty right wing, conservative Republican, Trump supporting. And I’m just seeing dissent for the first time. It’s not always like that explicit, but it is, I would say in the past what I’ve seen is just like. When kind of rightwing or more Republican opinions come up, if people disagree with that, it’s just like you’re just quiet. But now I’m seeing a way in which like people are responding, commenting on social media, like posting publicly about it. It’s just been really, really powerful. When I first started organizing in response to the federal occupation, my parents were really quite worried and they did not want me to get involved. And they didn’t really understand why I felt compelled to do this. And then when Alex Prety was murdered, I. It was actually my auntie, my mom’s youngest sister that brought up the idea of a food distribution because she was feeling like I just wanna do something and like, what is an avenue in which we can do something? Well, we have this restaurant. Mm-hmm. And so she proposed it to my parents first, which Oh

[00:13:05] Miko Lee: wow.

[00:13:06] Macy Tran: Love, shout out to her because

[00:13:09] Miko Lee: Thank you, auntie.

[00:13:10] Macy Tran: She did right. She did the hard work for me. I think I would’ve been a little more hesitant or would’ve taken a little bit more time to just process, like how to go about asking them, because there’s just a different power dynamic there. Sure. But because my auntie is more of a peer mm-hmm. And she had this idea and she has also worked at the restaurant mm-hmm. For many, many years of her life. I think it really spoke to my parents and I think it really was a moment for them to connect the ways that this restaurant is so important to not only our family and how we show up in community, but also to our community in Minneapolis. Mm-hmm. I have traveled all across the world and have met people who have eaten at Pho 79 and have told me stories of getting engaged there, of getting a tattoo of the, like restaurant on their, on their arm. The, the logo. Yeah, the logo. It’s crazy, you know, like people, and I’ve also heard generations of families like growing up on my parents’ food. Mm-hmm. As we share food with people and they support our business, it’s only because of our community that we’ve been able to survive this far you know?. My parents came to Minnesota with nothing, and it’s only because of the kindness of other Minnesotans and other Vietnamese Minnesotans that we were able to get anywhere.

[00:14:35] In this moment they saw that and they saw that. We can, we have these resources. This won’t be hard for us. We have everything here that we need. This is the channel in which we can work in. And yeah, they were just ready to do it. I think also my parents were ready to take a risk because the business was not doing well, we weren’t, there were not people coming out to eat. Everyone was scared to go out to eat. People were not really spending money. And this was really ever since the pandemic and the way that has impacted the restaurant industry and particularly immigrant businesses, and then also the George Floyd uprisings and the way that just the, violence and also the transformation that happened to the street that we were on Eat Street. It just really changed the ways people saw that corridor, that business corridor. And it was a really big business impact. And so my dad was just, I think, in a place where he was really willing to take a risk and a stand for what he believed in. And my mom as well. As a way to also just like. Really be present in community and show that, hey, like we are out here and we believe in loving our community and seeing the ways that people are showing up for our community as and for our business as well. And honestly, since the food distribution business has been steady and I think. My parents are, I mean, they’re definitely feeling relieved, but I’m just feeling so grateful that they stood on their values, you know, and they stood grounded in that. And as a result, like the community is reciprocating. and that is such a beautiful thing that I don’t, I think my dad took a risk not knowing what would happen, because more exposure is not always good. And I’ve been telling him that, you know, especially with the Vietnamese community being, of, of his genera generation being more right wing and more conservative. He recognizes that and he recognizes that we had to do something. So I feel so proud of them for just being really chill and okay, and actually impassioned and compelled to do something.

[00:16:57] Miko Lee: It sounds like it brought you a little bit closer with your family too.

[00:17:00] Macy Tran: Definitely. Definitely did. Yeah. I feel like me and my family have never really been able to sit at a table and talk about politics and what’s going on in the world without one of us just like getting activated or feeling defensive or not seeing each other. It is a terrible thing what has happened and what continues to happen in our city, under federal occupation and so much beauty and creativity and love has come from it. And I even feel that at the most micro scale between me and my parents.

[00:17:39] Miko Lee: Can you, share with us that are not located in Minnesota, what the experience is like of this federal occupation on a day to day? Like, we’re talking today on March 2nd, and I say that because our world, everything’s changing every day and this is gonna air on a separate day. So I wanna name that. So right now, what is it like when you’re just walking through the streets in downtown Minneapolis ?

[00:18:01] Macy Tran: Yeah. It’s interesting because when you ask me this, I think about my experience like a month ago and how different it was and it felt to walk around a month ago compared to now. A month ago. It. I was seeing a neighbor on every corner of major streets, like looking for ice. You know, I was seeing car caravans, honking and following ICE agents. It’s interesting ’cause like I actually just had a friend visit from Milwaukee and. She was nervous about ice. She’s Asian American as well, and she was like, should I be scared? What’s actually going on? And I told her, actually, yes, what’s going on is scary and violent. And I feel so safe because I am meeting neighbors I have never met before. I’m making small talk with people who are just. Out on the streets walking their dog in a way that they would not normally, I’m talking to business owners, we’re talking about the impacts of this occupation. Everywhere I go, there were eyes and that felt really powerful and strong. And now that operation Metro Surge is technically over they are supposed to be withdrawing ICE agents from the city. I would say there is definitely a decrease in the number of ICE agents in our city. Activity is much slower. However I would say out in the suburbs of Minneapolis and St. Paul, they are seeing action and enforcement from ICE agents. That is. Either at the, kind of the same amount that we were receiving or escalated. The concentration is higher out in the suburbs And so even though things were quieter in the city, they were elsewhere. And

[00:19:57] Miko Lee: yeah, I just saw videos this morning of protesters that were peacefully marching that just got tackled. Actually by Minnesota Sheriff’s department working in conjunction with ice. I know every state in every region is a little bit different. But I thought that was something that Governor Waltz was working on right?

[00:20:15] Macy Tran: So actually the city ordinance that you are talking about is actually on a Minneapolis City level. So that was a decision made by Mayor Fray. Oh, that’s only city. So it’s only MPD, Minneapolis Police Department, who is not supposed to assist in, federal and right. Federal enforcement. However, on a county level, that’s different. I see. So sheriffs might be working with, I know it’s like, so complic, what a mess complicated. I

[00:20:41] Miko Lee: know. This is the same, I mean, this is the same everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. It’s all broken down. Okay. So, so I think I hear you saying that ICE has kind of moved on with the targeted big city approach and they’re going out into the suburbs instead. Is that right?

[00:20:57] Macy Tran: Yes. There are still protestors, and observers going every day to the Whipple building. The Whipple building is where ICE agents are coming from, and so they have definitely recorded a decrease in the number of ICE vehicles. So the volume isn’t as high, but the cars are still coming and we’re still seeing enforcement and violence in our neighborhoods. Just the other day, just a few streets down, a person was abducted in our neighborhood in Minneapolis. And because the volume isn’t as high, they’re not as easily able to track. And so they’re working a lot more under the radar. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And their tactics have become just a lot more. Under the radar as well. In the early days in January, it was really easy to identify ICE out-of-state license plate, tinted windows. Big vehicles like super easy. Nowadays they’re putting like coexist bumper stickers and little things on their dashboards and like, you know, driving little sedans and it’s definitely not as easy and they’re moving a lot more covertly. And because Operation Metro Surge has technically decreased and because many of our frontline activists have been working at this for months and are getting tired. Mm-hmm. There is a really interesting transition period happening here. Mm-hmm. Where I think we’re all trying to align on what is the next.

[00:22:31] What’s the next step? Mm-hmm. How? How are we, what is the best way to move given that this is the way that ICE is operating now? Yeah,

[00:22:40] Miko Lee: right. Just

[00:22:41] Macy Tran: under reflection. Mm-hmm.

[00:22:42] Miko Lee: Under such sneaky circumstances, like what they recently did in New York at Columbia, showing up at Columbia University with a missing child picture of a little kid. And that’s how they got entry into the dorms, which is so wrong to terrible get a student. So that’s actually illegal to like misrepresent being a police officer when they’re not, they’re a nice officer and

[00:23:05] Macy Tran: mm-hmm.

[00:23:06] Miko Lee: Showing a photo, I mean, it’s so awful.

[00:23:08] Macy Tran: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:09] Miko Lee: I’m wondering how people that don’t live in Minnesota can get involved.

[00:23:14] Macy Tran: Hmm. The, greatest frontier currently that is in need of support is rent support. There are, probably hundreds of maybe thousands of people who are likely at risk of eviction in the Twin Cities, because they have not been able to work for the past two months without fear of being abducted. We’re calling on Governor Waltz for an eviction moratorium, which would prevent folks from being evicted. Governor Waltz is the only person who really has jurisdiction to implement an immediate rental moratorium, and he’s done that before during the pandemic, and so we’re trying to make arguments that this is. A state of emergency people are like not able, they weren’t able to work. Like people are going to get evicted putting calls to his office, sending emails. So that’s one way to get involved from abroad, uh, or not abroad outside of Minnesota, but also abroad if you’re abroad And listening to this. The other way was, is that there’s a lot of hyper-local organizing that is happening within Minneapolis that I can speak to every. Neighborhood and corner, I feel like, of Minneapolis is being accounted for usually by a team of just volunteer mutual aid groups who are fundraising for rent, who are fundraising for groceries who are fundraising for utilities.

[00:24:45] And these are all like live fundraising pages on the internet. And if you have even just 10, $20 to spare to help a Minneapolis resident, um, not get evicted in the next month. Um, every dollar matters. In this moment, rent is due. Soon, we’re just at the beginning of March. And if folks aren’t able to pay rent now and they haven’t been able to pay rent in the last couple of months, like this is only going to have a snowball effect. We cannot risk vulnerable neighbors migrants, immigrants being, like more of them being unhoused at this moment. We already in our city have so many unhoused people who are not being cared for by our city officials, who are having their encampments being taken down and who are already not receiving adequate support. Our system cannot handle an influx of more unhoused people and we can prevent this. I would say that is kind of the biggest frontier at the moment in terms of what I’m seeing organizing on the ground.

[00:26:01] Miko Lee: Would you have links that you could share with us definitely for rent support. That would be really great if, and I’ll definitely, I’ll add them to the Apex Express show notes so folks that wanna get involved can contribute and help support community. You wrote in your piece about books, lovely books and podcasts and things that inspired you, which I always love hearing about those things. And one of the books you wrote about was Rice and Baguette, A History of Food in Vietnam. Can you talk a little bit about it, how it deepened your understanding of food legacies and resistance?

[00:26:33] Macy Tran: Mm So I read that book while I was living in Vietnam actually. So it was really cool for me to, what I love about that book, it’s a little like academic. I will say that it is a food history like you are reading history, you know, it’s a little bit like dense at some points, um, for

[00:26:49] Miko Lee: the real foodie audience.

[00:26:51] Macy Tran: For real. I’m like, if, yeah, exactly. And luckily that’s me. I was into it. What I loved about it were, the legends, like there were some what I, so in Vietnam when I was living there, something that I loved and was learning more was that like Vietnamese people have so many legends about folk legends about food, like the origins of the watermelon,, the origins of our bunte cake, which is the cake that we eat, the sticky rice cake we eat during, lunar New Year. There are so many Food origin stories that I just did not grow up being raised on. And so, this book talked about some of like, how did pho even get started, you know, is pho even truly Vietnamese? It’s, that’s a debate I’m not gonna have right now. But. I loved just hearing the greater context in which all of this existed, especially not growing up with those stories and being,

[00:27:55] Miko Lee: Hey, wait, what is the origin of watermelon?

[00:27:58] Macy Tran: So it’s this like funny little. Story where, this prince essentially gets banished to an island with his wife. And then on this random island, he finds this like incredible fruit, the watermelon, and he’s like, whoa, this is so delicious. I want I must show this to the people back at home, but they won’t have me because I’m banished. And then he basically floats the watermelon back to the mainland and they find it and they’re like, oh my gosh, this is so incredible. We must, invite this man back to the mainland.

[00:28:38] Miko Lee: How did they know it was from him? Did he like carve his name in the watermelon?

[00:28:43] Macy Tran: I don’t know. It’s actually been a while since I’ve heard this story, so I could be just like. You know, I don’t know all the details. That’s

[00:28:50] Miko Lee: okay. That’s always better anyway.

[00:28:53] Macy Tran: just stories like that. I love to hear them. I also learned about what it was like to eat and cook during foreign occupation when, oh, you know, the French were colonizers mm-hmm. When the Chinese were colonizers. Mm-hmm. And just the incredible Vietnamese food ways that emerged from those periods of colonization. Mm-hmm. They were both brutal and violent and also full of adaptation and creativity and survival foods. And so the book just talked about all of that, and I just love knowing those stories that help me know the ways in which our people have been able to survive for this long and are now free under, foreign
occupation.

[00:29:40] Miko Lee: Speaking of, you mentioned creativity and adaptability, and you are a multihyphenate person, as an artist, as an organizer, as a writer, as a visual artist, collage maker, I’m wondering how your artistry impacts your organizing and vice versa. How do they speak to each other? How do they influence each other?

[00:30:01] Macy Tran: Hmm. I am someone who, when there is an issue or a problem that arises, I’m often just confronting it with what can I do? What can I like feasibly do? How can I show up? And I think my artistic practices actually help me slow down. Even the ways that I can show up in community and do things in community, I’m very responsive. I’m always like, okay let’s do a thing. Let’s organize it. Let’s get our hands dirty. I am out there, I am organizing people, you know, like tangibly. And I think the ways that my artistic practices partner with that is that my artistic practices help me reflect and remember and deepen and find spiritual grounding and purpose. my art is a way that I bridge conversations with my ancestors and I bridge what it means to know myself and be a person, a community member, a Vietnamese American daughter in this moment, right? And it reminds me of the skills that I have and wanna bring to the world. It also helps me create different narratives for understanding what’s happening and. For finding creative solutions and for collaborating with others. So I think I would honestly be so burnt out and exhausted and sad if it were not for my artistic practices. I think it’s because of my artistic practices that I find energy, that I find belonging, that I find meaning in the work that I’m doing.

[00:31:51] Miko Lee: I love that answer. Can you share, because you brought this up, can you share about a conversation or an interaction you’ve had with an ancestor and how that’s influenced you recently?

[00:32:03] Macy Tran: Hmm. That’s such a great question. I’m going to tie this answer into Lunar New Year because, lunar New Year is a time in which our material world and the spiritual world really can converge in a meaningful way, at least for me. And every year when I celebrate Lunar New Year, I will do something different. I deepen my practices. I just kind of deepen what I know about. Folk tradition and ancestor worship. And every year I learned new things and I wanna try new things. And so this year was the first year that I built a public altar space in my living room. Usually I just have it in my bedroom or in a small corner of my home somewhere that’s like usually private. But I built like. It wasn’t like a tiny little altar, like it was big, you know, like I had photos of all my relatives on there. I had flowers, I had five kinds of fruits. I had, you know, little, every time I ate a meal, I was putting a meal aside for my family to eat with me. And, Some cultures you don’t eat the food that you leave on the altar, but in my family we do. And the reason for that is because we get to become one with our ancestors. We get to embody what our ancestors are and eat as well and their spirits, and so this past Lunar New Year, I actually threw a, I had celebrations on both sides of the family. And then I organized a new year party for my chosen family who came from all walks of life. And the prompt for the party, it was a potluck. The prompt for the potluck was cook something or bring something that your ancestors would be just delighted to eat on the altar. And so we

[00:34:00] Miko Lee: love that.

[00:34:01] Macy Tran: Oh yeah. It was so sweet. People came out with their best work, I should say, like the food was fantastic. Our ancestors were eating well, and I was sitting there. And this altar was full of tiny little plates of food, beautiful flowers. I also asked people to bring pictures, photos of their ancestors or people that they wanna honor. Incense were lit. The room was filled with incense smoke, and I was just, there was a moment where I was just, kinda in the corner of the room just watching, you know, and I had a feeling like, wow, all of our ancestors are hanging out right now. Not only are me and my chosen family, you know, building a community and belonging for ourselves but also like. I could have never, and probably they could have never predicted that my friend’s like Jewish grandpa was hanging out with my Vietnamese grandmother and grandfather, you know, or yeah, my friends like grandparents from Antigua are now hanging out with like my family members and it’s, it was just a moment where I just felt not just the joy.

[00:35:16] And love in the space of connecting with my real, like my friends in that moment. But also just the miraculousness of what it meant to hold all of our ancestors in that space. And so, after that I ended up writing a piece on my substack, actually as a letter to my ancestors. I, I kept the altar up for a week, a week and a half. And on the last day I was ready to take it down and move it back upstairs into my room. But on the last day, I thought, I’m gonna light the incense one more time. And have my ancestors in the space as I write this piece to them. There were so many things I wanted to say to them. And also at the same time, I felt like as I was writing, they were saying things to me, this is what I have to teach you in this moment, is kind of what they were saying to me. This is like, this is what it’s like to celebrate that under occupation. This is what it was like when we thought it wasn’t even possible to celebrate Tet. Like we had literally nothing but rice and water and yet we still did, and my grandma recently passed a I mean, it’s not so recent anymore, but it’s been just over a year now. And she was like, One of the first like major deaths of the elder generation in my family. And Tet was the time that I could commune with her and share love with her. And, I could just feel her presence in the space and I would even, memories felt like a way that she was talking to me. The memory of just the crackle of her sesame balls, like she made the best sesame balls. They were like. Thin and crispy and fluffy, but also like so like they were not skimping on the mung bean on the inside. It was fantastic. So I’m just like, I haven’t had a sesame ball from her in over a year, but I can remember how it tastes and feels, and my mouth and that memory itself is a message from her. To remember what has fed me through so many years, and how important it is to just remember the, not only just the foods that we eat, but the people that have loved that food into existence. And now me, you know,

[00:37:38] Miko Lee: have you made it the dish, the sesame balls.

[00:37:43] Macy Tran: I actually have her recipe books, so I planned to I just didn’t have time, this past Tet, but me and my brother were going to, and then I think we decided we wanted to do it on just like on a lower key day, like instead of like in the midst of just like so much family celebration, there was so much to prepare and we were like, let’s just plan a low key weekend where it’s just me and you and there’s no timeline and we don’t have to get this anywhere and they don’t have to be perfect. Like

[00:38:14] Miko Lee: that sounds lovely. So it’s personal and it’s family and Exactly. And if for a one year anniversary, death anniversary is coming up, that might be a great time to honor her.

[00:38:22] Macy Tran: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:38:24] Miko Lee: I’m wondering what was like some standout dishes from that lovely event to you?

[00:38:29] Macy Tran: Ooh. I mean, I will talk about the dish I made.

[00:38:33] Miko Lee: Okay.

[00:38:36] Macy Tran: Which I thought was fantastic and I think my friends also thought were delicious. Was delicious. Um, but a dish that is commonly eaten during the lunar new year for Vietnamese people is a tit ka, which is a caramelized, braised pork belly. This caramelized, braised pork was stewing for probably three hours. Wow. And so, yeah, and I used coconut water with it. I didn’t like, straight up coconut water and it

[00:39:04] Miko Lee: no Coca-Cola.

[00:39:06] Macy Tran: No Coca-Cola not in this one. And I just made a huge, huge pot and it was basically almost all gone by the end of the night. So that was like a really good feeling. Um, my brother made an incredible duck heart lap. He works at Diane’s Place, actually, it’s a famous Hmong restaurant in Minneapolis. And they processed duck on the menu. And so he had like access to all these duck organs and he made an incredible loup that he brought to the party. And my, one of my little sisters, Iris, she’s Puerto Rican and she made like tostones, like fried plantains and then she also made Puerto Rican rice, and she, she made like three or four dishes. So like, people really went above and beyond for their ancestors. I could really, I mean, it was probably like 20 people who came to this party, so there were so many dishes and they were all. So good. So I, I don’t wanna, once I get into it, I’m gonna go into it, so I’m not gonna chat your ear off.

[00:40:13] Miko Lee: Sounds lovely. Sounds yummy. Mm-hmm. And my last question is, I’m wondering what manifestation for the year of the horse you have for yourself.

[00:40:23] Macy Tran: The 18 million rising essay that I wrote came, it was right before the lunar new year that it got published. And it came during a time where I was already thinking a lot about my creative practice and how in, in relationship my creative practice in relationship with also the ways that I organize and the ways that I cook and, organize around food. And when this opportunity for this essay emerged and just the way it has been received has been such an honor, like, because I haven’t written for myself, you know, in so long and like really with my own voice I just didn’t realize that people were going to resonate with it so much and find like an invitation to engage in food justice themselves and their own ancestry. And also the ways that it made them think about food and their relationship to food. And it was such a blessing for me to receive that resonance from people, you know, and to receive, just the stories that I’ve heard and the way it spoke to them. And I felt like that has been a blessing for me to just really expand my creative practice and be more public with it. I’m like, dang, if this little thing that I wrote impacted people in the way that they think about the world, like. I have so many more ideas I wanna share and like be in partnership with others about.

[00:41:57] And I just launched my Substack, right after the Lunar New Year and I was like, all right, you’re the fire horse. Let’s freaking go. I am ready, I am running. So, I just wanna be creating so much and like act manifesting and actualizing a lot of the dreams that I have, my creative dreams that I have continued to put on the back burner. Things about hosting supper clubs and doing more work around my parents’ restaurant, like helping them create narrative around the restaurant and sharing our restaurant story with people. And just using my words and experiences as a way to connect with the world and also be open to the ways that people wanna connect with me. So that’s kind of the ways that I’m, I’m seeing this year unfold already, and it’s already started with a bang. I also wanna add that year of the fire horse for me is just a lot about movement and progress. And so in this sense movement, I think of social movements and the ways that social this particular social movement against ICE in our city will fundamentally. Impact us for the next lunar year. It happened right at the beginning of the lunar New Year and it’s going to have deep effects into the year, and we will forever be changed by this. And I am so excited to see the ways in which we harness this energy for transformation, for care into something that’s really meaningful.

[00:43:37] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us on Apex Express. It was a delight to talk with you.

[00:43:42] Macy Tran: Thank you, Miko. This was so great. Thanks for having me.

[00:43:45] Miko Lee: Next up, listen to researcher professor, Dr. Milkie Vu, speak on her exploration on Asian Americans and food insecurities. Welcome, Dr. Milkie Vu, assistant professor at Northwestern. Welcome so much to Apex Express.

[00:44:04] Dr. Milkie Vu: Thank you. I’m delighted to be here.

[00:44:07] Miko Lee: Dr. Milkie is a mixed methods researcher focusing on community engagement and health issues, and I’m excited to talk with you today. I wanna start by first asking the question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:44:24] Dr. Milkie Vu: My people are the Vietnamese community, and when I think of my people, the first word that comes to my mind is resilience. I was raised in Vietnam. I speak Vietnamese fluently and I embrace my culture very deeply. I carry the memory of my parents and grandparents who have lived to colonization multiple world. And the challenge of post-war poverty and the ability to, endure all these hardship is the legacy that I bring with me and in my day to day life it acts as a personal life of hope for me and then professionally in the. Work that I do is really a foundation and it drives my dedication and commitment to working on health solution with Asian American and immigrant communities who have similar stories of hardship, but also perseverance.

[00:45:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. I really appreciate how your background has informed the work that you’re doing, and I wonder if you could talk a little bit more about this study, this scoping review on food insecurity among Asian Americans. Can you one first start off by breaking down what a scoping review is.

[00:45:37] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, I’m happy to talk about that. So a scoping review is essentially a methodology that we use to be able to summarize existing scientific literature and try to understand how this literature. Answer research questions that we have.

[00:45:56] Miko Lee: Can you tell me what inspired this study?

[00:45:59] Dr. Milkie Vu: I’ve done community engaged research with, Asian American population for over a decade. In doing so, I have come to realize , as an anecdotal evidence, how food insecurity is a issue in the community. And yet that’s very little that has been, done in terms of research or policy that target this problem., So for example, the US Department of Agriculture, will publish annually a report on food insecurity in America and it will include several, racial and ethnic populations, but Asian Americans are frequently ommitted from that report. So, you know, at the national level, that data doesn’t exist, which then, makes it very difficult to understand what is the severity of the problem and what are some of the solutions that could be done to address them. So that’s why we were interested in doing a deeper dive into summarizing the literature too be able to see what has been done about this problem and what are some of the barriers that exist, towards food security for community members, and what are some of the literature gaps? Our review was published in 2024 was the first scientific review of the literature on food insecurity among Asian Americans.

[00:47:27] Miko Lee: And what did your study uncover?

[00:47:31] Dr. Milkie Vu: We documented several important findings. There is a lack of existing data on this problem. Due to this myth of Asian Americans being the model minority. Assuming that Asian Americans are uniformly successful socioeconomically and thus not experiencing, any challenge including food insecurity. One of the things that we found is the importance of data disaggregation and looking at food insecurity in different Asian origin groups. We found that food insecurity really varied. So for example, if you look at some groups like Japanese Americans, we found the prevalence of between two to 11% of the population reporting food insecurity. But then if you look at some of the Southeast Asian groups, for example, Filipinos or Hmong American or Vietnamese, the rates are much higher. So the studies that we found report, between eight to 41% of food insecurity and among Filipino population. Close to 48% for more Hmong American, and then between 14 or 28% for Vietnamese Americans, so much higher than the rates for other groups.

[00:48:48] Data Dion is important and there shouldn’t be this grouping of different Asian groups in research because then it really erased like the struggles specific communities with food insecurity. I think the other finding that was really important is looking at more systemic or structural barriers that prevent people from being food secure. Our review found that limited English proficiency is a important driver of food insecurity. The lack of appropriate language services, whether that’s food pantry or for things like snap navigation. These could be important target point infusion policy or interventions that could help address food insecurity, community members. We also look at a couple of qualitative studies that found really interesting things. So for example, even when Asian American community members do use food assistance programs like snap, the benefits are often not sufficient. And they have a negative experience. There’s also fear of how that might negatively impact the immigration status or application. Those are important barriers that should be acknowledge.

[00:50:08] Miko Lee: Some of these numbers are so high. You mentioned 48% with Hmong folks with, it’s just so surprising, and I wonder if there’s a sense of the why some of these communities have a higher food insecurity than others.

[00:50:21] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, one of the things that we did point out in the conclusion was the need for just more studies focusing on these, smaller Asian groups or smaller Asian population that are done in like the appropriate language to be. From some of the experience I’ve had, part of it is probably shaped by, the historical conditions to which some of these, communities might have come to the us. For example, thinking about my community Vietnamese, coming to America as refugees, fleeing persecution or free fleeing war and how that, historical conditions might create structural and socioeconomic challenge in Britain, in the community. I am also curious about is the availability of service and program that are linguistically appropriate or, providing culturally relevant food for these communities. So those are important points that we can hypothesize, but obviously more research is needed to understand, the root cause of these challenge and how to address them.

[00:51:28] Miko Lee: And were you focused on specific regions or this was national?

[00:51:34] Dr. Milkie Vu: I’m really glad that you asked about this. So the review itself is, summarizing all published literature focusing on Asian Americans. All of the studies take place in the us. A lot of the, studies probably focus on data that are from the coast. So either on Asian American, on the east coast or the west coast. , But we looked at the study like from a nationwide angle and I’m also happy to talk about some of the new committee organizations in Chicago looking at food insecurity and community-based solutions to address that among Asian Americans. Part of the motivation for the follow-up study was just thinking about the lack of data focusing on the Midwest or Chicago where I live.

[00:52:20] Miko Lee: Please, I’d love to hear more about that
.
[00:52:23] Dr. Milkie Vu: The COVID pandemic, had brought a lot challenges for food insecurity. For people nationwide in general, but then for Asian American, there’s also this, so what I call like the double, almost like a double pandemic, like the waves of entire Asian violence and hate crimes. And so thinking about how that impact food insecurity in general among, Asian American community members. About two years ago, we interviewed around, 13 organizations in Chicago. All of them are either community based organizations, social services or food pantry, working with, primarily with Asian American community members, from diverse groups: korean, Chinese, Vietnamese, Filipino, south Asian, Mongolian, et cetera throughout Chicago. And the question that we asked them was, thinking about what programs they have offered during the COVID pandemic that aim at reducing food insecurity among community members. How did they implement this program? Who are some of the vulnerable populations served by the program? How did the pandemic as far as anti-Asian racism impact the program organization? That was the first study that looked at how community organization in Chicago help address this issue of insecurity on this, the COVID pandemic.

[00:53:57] Miko Lee: And so what is the next step for this study or what is the next piece that you’re working on as connected to this?

[00:54:05] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah. Think about the role of the community organization as grassroots organizations that work from the ground up , as opposed to more top down program structure. They’re doing a lot of the heavy lifting to help community members address food insecurity, because they know the community very well. They are able to provide the in language service that community members need. They’re also trusted by community members. So a lot of the time,, certain populations especially say if those with limited their English proficiency or, more newly arrived immigrants, might feel more comfortable going here as opposed to going to this organization as opposed to, another one that are more generic and don’t have the staff that speak the right language. I think the other thing is, staff with the similar cultural backgrounds are able to understand. There was one quote from the study that I did in Chicago. That stuck with me. When we tell them you could go to the food bank, the American food is not quite tailored to their taste. So they will get a big chunk of cheese and they will be like, what is this? Nobody wants to eat this. Again, thinking about the role of committee organization as so important in knowing the language, knowing the cultural preferences. And then just thinking of ways that we can further support, the programs and operations that they do. This is a really challenging time for nonprofits, social service organization, both in terms of providing food as well as other social service to Asian American and immigrant communities. How can research from a place like, researchers, from academia like me, are able to partner with them to further the service that they do and be able to find the funding that support them and community members. I think that’s the important step for me.

[00:56:02] Miko Lee: Dr. Vu, how can folks find out more about your work?

[00:56:06] Dr. Milkie Vu: Yeah, In order to understand more about the work that we do, so we have a website, for our lab that frequently include, you know, like our current projects as well as publications. So you can go to site, so SI ts.northwestern.edu/vu group. and you’ll be able to find more information about the research that we published. We’ve also recently, in the beginning of the year start, to find ways to disseminate research on social media. So we also have a Facebook group for our lab that disseminates our research findings as well as include information about the community members and partners Other trainees in the lab that make this work possible. The labs Facebook group is at facebook.com/maybe give research. and then you can always reach out to me via my email [email protected] So I’m glad to connect with people who have similar research interests or would like to learn more about the work that we do.

[00:57:06] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us and sharing your information about your important work that you’re doing on research with Asian American community. Appreciate hearing from you.

[00:57:15] Dr. Milkie Vu: Thank you so much.

[00:57:18] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 6.4.26 – Food Justice appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 5.28.26 – Building South Asian Power
28 touko· KPFA - APEX Express
APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
On this episode, host Miata Tan is joined by guests from the South Asian Coalition, an emergent national network committed to collective liberation and solidarity.
Together they explore what it means to build South Asian political power in this moment—and how cross-movement solidarity can shape a more just, multiracial future.

Learn more about the South Asian Coalition
Website | Instagram | Policy Priorities

The South Asian Coalition was convened in October 2024 by:
Manavi, Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, Muslims for Just Futures, and Raksha.

Transcript
[00:00:00]
Miata Tan : Hello and welcome. You are tuning in to APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight, we’re focusing on South Asian communities and the organizers working to build political power. South Asians are one of the fastest-growing racial groups in the United States, Over six million people [00:01:00] and roughly a quarter of the Asian American population.
South Asian is used as a broad umbrella term for people with roots in countries such as India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Sri Lanka, and sometimes Afghanistan. Though exact definitions can vary across communities and organizations. And as we’ll talk about tonight, within the South Asian diaspora who call the United States home, you have a mix of nationalities, religion, immigration status, and more.
Tonight, I’m joined by four people working to address the issues impacting South Asian communities in the US and beyond.
At a time when questions of belonging, safety, and political power continue to shape immigrant communities across the country, South Asian organizers are building new forms of solidarity while also grappling with the diversity and complexity within their own communities.
The first voice you’ll hear is Sabiha Basrai Sabiha is the daughter of Muslim Gujarati immigrants and has been [00:02:00] organizing with the Bay Area-based Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, since 2009. Here’s Sabiha helping us to understand how South Asian political organizing has evolved in the United States, especially in the post 9/11 era
Sabiha Basrai: Thanks for the opportunity to do some reflection this year marks the 25th anniversary of 9/11, which was a real a political flashpoint that absolutely changed my life because I was a 19-year-old college student trying to figure out a lot of things about how the world works and my place in it, and my own identity and the multiple identities I hold.
Uh, and also where my responsibilities lied in solidarity, not just with other Muslims who were being targeted, but our broad immigrant diasporas and allies, uh, who have experienced discrimination in different forms from the state. So thinking about the ways in which- organizing happened in the, months and years after 9/11 to support immigrant [00:03:00] rights that was really a time in which new projects formed, um, or existing projects kind of found a new focus.
ASATA as an organizing project, as a group of volunteers, has both done things like shown up to support folks being called up for the NCR’s Special Registration Program and also participate in direct action protests in solidarity against the war, and has continued to be part of coalitional work regionally in the Bay Area.
And, you know, more recently, uh, when we think about the ways in which our communities under, are under increased pressure with the Trump administration’s immigrant policies, there have been also opportunities to build more relationships and make sure that as we advocate for our community’s rights, we’re doing so in formation with others, not just focusing on one particular bad piece of legislation, but connecting that to a larger story, to really build towards liberation for all of us.
I’ll [00:04:00] just add, too that those relationships that were kind of seeded and invested in in that moment of crisis and anxiety and fear have endured in many ways to now.
The fact that that very ecosystem is actually growing in this moment is a testament to the relationships that were built in those days.
Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai grounding us in the history of South Asian political organizing in the US. As she mentioned, for many South Asians, 9/11 marked a particularly mobilizing moment, one that helped our communities organized and built solidarity. To help us better understand how that moment influenced the evolution of progressive South Asian activism, we now turn to Deepa Iyer,
South Asian American writer, strategist, and lawyer.
Deepa leads projects on solidarity and social movements at Building Movement Project and brings more than 25 years of experience in Asian American organizing and advocacy
Deepa Iyer: I think that I would say that there [00:05:00] were, looking back, a couple of trends and themes that we can pull out from that time. one is that there was definitely a shift in the general consciousness of South Asian communities about our place in American society, our understanding of racism, Islamophobia, and also the role of the state.
And so we had a situation where both hate violence and state violence were actually being endured by South Asian, Muslim, Arab communities. And so I think that there was a shift in the ways in which our communities began to think about ourselves in the United States. A second piece is the growth of a field, an ecosystem of South Asian organizations in the wake of the attacks and the global war on terror.
So we began to see a lot of groups that were actually formed or becoming more staffed up in the weeks and months after 9/11. For example, the Sikh [00:06:00] Coalition was actually birthed the evening of the attacks, and an organization that I was close to, SALT, was also emerging and forming in the months after 9/11 as well.
So we began to see that a, a field was growing. And the third, sort of theme I would point out that Sabihah alluded to is this sense of solidarity, that instead of sort of being siloed as, you know, South Asians working within just our communities and just talking about certain specific issues, there was real sense that we needed to collaborate and build bridges with Arab, Muslim, Sikh, and, Black communities in the United States to understand the trajectory of racism and xenophobia, and how they were all kind of coming together in the weeks after 9/11. Those three themes and trends are what, when I look back, I see coming up over and over again in our messaging and in our advocacy.
Miata Tan : [00:07:00] That was Deepa Iyer, as you heard from Deepa, collaboration across movements was essential in helping South Asian communities to understand and respond to the waves of xenophobia in the wake of 9/11.
Now we turn to Rajiv Narayan and Farah Mahesri, who lead national policy work at the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA
together they launched and now co-lead ASATA’s new political base building group, ASATA Power. Rajiv begins by reflecting on what South Asian communities are facing today and what has and hasn’t changed since 9/11.
Rajiv Narayan: I think unfortunately many of the challenges present in the early 2000s remain today. They take new form. Some have evolved and transformed, but they were ex- existed in, in much the same form following 9/11. One of the, the instances in which I, I learned about that is at the recent South Asian Coalition convening where we did this exercise in mapping a number of [00:08:00] historical and present day events, as well as a future vision of things that are important to our organizations and to our movements.
And something that we reflected on together in the convening is that a number of these attacks on our communities have waxed and waned, uh, at different periods in time, dating back to the, the 1960s and truly at, even at the beginning of, you know, the 19th century and the late 18th century. And so, to answer your question specifically, in the early 2000s, like Deepa and Sabihah mentioned, we’ve dealt with, uh, an incredible expression of Islamophobia of, uh, anti-Brown and anti-Black racism and hate speech.
There was a, in, in general a skepticism and unwelcoming of South Asian communities. And unfortunately with the current federal administration and political discourse in our country, uh, a number of those same themes are relevant today and take on similar forms, whether they’re in [00:09:00] response to what the federal administration is doing in countries like Iran or previous administrations have done in Afghanistan or Pakistan.
I think all of those events underscore all the more so that it’s important for our organizations to, organize together, much as we did in the early 2000s, to address these harms, to remember what they look like at previous stages of history, and to fight to prevent them again from happening in the future.
Miata Tan : Farah, perhaps you could speak a bit to the organizing. What did that look like, a few years ago, and what does that look like today? How has that changed?
Farah Mahersi: Rajiv and I started ASATA Power a couple of years ago specifically to be able to look forward to practice radical imagination, and fight for not just protection of our communities, which we will always do.
That is built into our DNAs. It’s what we know. It’s how we move. And also to fight for things that we want, to build the world that we want to live in so that we’re not constantly caught in these cycles. And as we’re doing [00:10:00] that, we are learning a lot about how organizing is happening today, the BLM movement, Black Lives Matter, and incredible street power, but also that movement’s ability to change our national discourse and change what is baseline, what we should be demanding, and how we are visioning a future that is built on policies governance and hard material changes in our lives is profound.
beyond that, also the Palestine solidarity movement over the last couple of years has rewritten every book about organizing. And so I think that it is an interesting moment of both a little bit of sadness, to be honest, that we are still fighting some of these same fights and we are still in some of these same dynamics that we have been for 25 years, and the profound opportunity that we have to build power and to look forward, and I think that is, more true in the Bay Area than it is almost everywhere else.
Uh, because of what our workforce looks like, because of the sheer [00:11:00] amount of wealth that is accumulated in this little corner of our world, and also when you look around at the political power and people who hold political power or are running for political power and elected office around the Bay Area, you could really start to see not just how South Asians are increasingly politicized and increasingly looking to build electoral and political power, but also s- very specifically progressive political power.
And so when you look to Congress now, The progressive caucus is full of South Asian progressives who are leading the charge, who are doing some of this critical work, that’s part of our organizing strategy, is to be part of those conversations and to continue to push and to continue to, again, advocate for policies and changes at that big level to make the future we want possible.
Miata Tan : I love that. Coming together to dream and really fight. Rajiv, you are leading this work at the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action. Can you speak more to why the Bay Area [00:12:00] is a, like, a distinct microcosm in this progressive South Asian movement?
Rajiv Narayan: Of course. So Farah and I, we both work together at ASATA Power, and ASATA is sort of political power building project within the auspices of, uh, ASATA which has been operating in the Bay Area for more than 25 years now. I think what makes the Bay Area a microcosm of the South Asian diaspora is a tremendous amount of diversity and, uh, a set of interrelated intersectional challenges.
So you have, uh, folks of South Asian descent with all different immigration histories. So I’m, for example, a person, um, who has birthright citizenship in the United States as I was born here. But there are folks who immigrated here, like my parents and had to attain their citizenship uh, through the, the US legal system, and folks beyond that who are refugees or asylees or are undocumented due to a variety of political and social and economic pressures.
And so we all coexist in this same space across an economic gradient. So there are folks [00:13:00] who are very well compensated in the tech sectors and healthcare sectors sometimes, uh, characterized, uh, as part of a, a model minority myth, um, as representatives of the South Asian diaspora, um, within the San Francisco Bay Area and the United States broadly.
And then there are whole variety of South Asians who are working in less well-compensated, often quite exploited industries. For example, in, care industries as people who are providing childcare or senior care services, people who are working in the restaurant industry folks who are lesser compensated within healthcare as well as in tech industries and other ways.
Of course, those economic positions interact with the political and legal system. So for example, even if a person might be, um, well-compensated in a tech job in the Bay Area, um, which they attained by way of an H-1B visa that person might be subject to exploitative labor conditions based on the, uh, the legal configuration of how H-1B [00:14:00] visas are treated.
For example, that you depend on your employer for your immigration status in this country, which changes the worker-employer relationship in a way that makes it very difficult to identify workplace abuses. beyond that, we also have a diverse range of South Asians across the age gradient. So we have folks who are quite young, who are in Gen Z, and are entering politics in a completely different way than somebody like myself or Deepa entered politics at, in earlier in, in our lives and experience it today, which provides an opportunity for us to learn from earlier generations and to also share lessons from our political experience.
So like with many things, the Bay Area has it all, the good and the bad, and ASATA and ASATA Power work within that, that space to identify opportunities for solidarity.
Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan and Farah Mehestri. Through their work with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, Rajiv and Farah are helping to build South Asian political power here in the Bay Area and [00:15:00] nationwide.
The ASATA team and all four of our guests tonight are connected through the South Asian Coalition, a network of local and national organizations focused on advancing policy issues affecting South Asian communities and building shared spaces for strategy and collaboration.
To better understand this evolving movement of progressive South Asian action, let’s return to Deepa Iyer, who shares how and why this coalition came together
Deepa Iyer: Yeah. I really appreciate Rajiv bringing up, um, how- what is happening in the Bay Area is part of a larger movement. And what I would say about this ecosystem, this field that I talked about earlier, and I’ve been able to understand this through the course of the work I’ve done, but also a book I’ve written about post 9/11 America, is that so much happens on the coasts, and we often forget that there are organizations and are communities that are really [00:16:00] growing in other parts of the country, right?
You know, I grew up in Kentucky, um, and there are places like Kentucky and Indiana where you are seeing, um, more South Asians settle and build their lives there. So one of the things that I think has been important in thinking about as we come up on this 25th anniversary of 9/11 is how our coalition of South Asian groups, how that field has grown with these additional organizations, in geographic areas that are different, as well as the ways in which folks are organizing. So now we’ve got, for example, groups that are working with Bhutanese refugees or Nepali-speaking community members, or groups that are organizing around the exploitation of community members based on caste.
These are, um, really important movement interventions and organizations that are growing. one of the key aspects of network infrastructure is the ability to connect with each other, [00:17:00] not to flatten our experiences and say we’re all the same, but to actually find some threads of commonality in our shared struggle and our experiences, and to also know that together as collectives, as Farah mentioned earlier, we can actually build the futures that we wanna see.
One of the really, I think, inspiring pieces of coalition building that I’ve been fortunate to work with and support along with, um, everyone here is the South Asian Coalition, which is this emergent network of now 35 organizations around the country, and this coalition really seeks to build relationships and strengthen relationships, engage in peer learning and skills building, make it clear that there are certain policy issues that we need to uplift and to advocate around, and to create opportunities and pathways for solidarity with larger movements. This coalition and the infrastructure that it’s been [00:18:00] creating is a way for us to look at our ecosystem of South Asian organizing in this moment, and to really see what happens when we galvanize our power collectively.
Miata Tan : and Deepa, can you share a bit about the various co-conveners that make up the South Asian Coalition?
Deepa Iyer: So the South Asian Coalition, um, as we’ve mentioned, is this emergent network of groups that address various issues but are aligned around shared values. And the groups that really came together to co-convene it include Asad the Power, as well as Muslims for Just Futures, Raksha, which is an organization in the South, and Manavi, which is based in New Jersey.
And these four organizations really had the vision to set up the structure for the coalition. the organization where I work at, Building Movement Project, supports the coalition through infrastructure, so providing facilitation, providing resources, policy analysis, and creating the container to support [00:19:00] movements in that way, which is so critical for coalitions.
Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer a South Asian American writer, strategist, and lawyer. after the break, we’ll hear more from organizers and advocates working to address issues shaping South Asian communities today. Stay with us
[00:20:00] [00:21:00] that was “Phenom” by Thao and the Get Down Stay Down. You are tuned into [00:22:00] APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miada Tan. Tonight, I’m joined by four people who are working to address the issues impacting South Asian communities in the US and beyond.
Back in March, organizers, advocates, and community leaders from across the country gathered in Washington, DC, for a national convening focused on the challenges and possibilities facing South Asian communities today.
Here’s Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA. She speaks about how this coalition of progressive South Asian groups formed and why this moment called for it.
Sabiha Basrai: So this new emergent South Asian Coalition had its first convening in Washington, DC in March, and this was, the culmination of, a little over a year of monthly Zoom calls which started because [00:23:00] we knew we were on the verge of a Trump re-election.
Uh, we knew that there was this ecosystem of South Asian activism and organizing across the country. Some of us knew each other from previous collaborations, but some of us didn’t. New organizations were forming, and there was this recognition that we need each other in order to face what’s coming, and we are stronger together.
And we know that being South Asian is not a monolith, uh, that we deal with within our own communities based on labor exploitation, caste discrimination, anti-Muslim violence. And when we talk to each other, when we connect, we give ourselves the best chance at being able to move through those pieces of pain and build towards a future where we can all feel a sense of belonging, feel represented, and an agency in shaping that future together.
So what started with a few conversations with a few folks, grew steadily [00:24:00] and, um, and through some intentional work to, to kind of invite each other in, which is of course an ongoing process, we were able to unite under this umbrella called the South Asian Coalition. Uh, we committed to some shared political points of unity and kind of community agreements to really set some expectations with one another on how we could move well in formation.
And, made sure we had pathways to share information with each other so that someone like me working in Oakland could understand what, uh, someone working in Texas or in Georgia was facing, what local policy positions they were needing to, to navigate. And, uh, we could give each other advice, give each other moral support, and also sharpen our political understandings.
So, uh, these kind of, uh, regular check-ins was one way of just understanding what we were all facing and feeling connected. But, actually being together in person was remarkable. I cannot overstate how much of a difference it makes to be able to share [00:25:00] space and see each other as whole people and not just representatives of a particular organization or a particular issue area, and, have those in-between moments where we actually build, build some friendships.
One of the things that was also really important for me to understand when we met together was just how important that intergenerational work is. we had folks in the room who were, in their 50s and 60s who had been doing this work for decades. And we had folks in the room who were in their 20s for whom 9/11 was, something that happened in history. The conversations that were happening across generations informed the way that we think about ourselves as a coalition and helped me also to let go of some of the constraints that, kept my imagination small about what we were capable of.
I was really grateful that so many people attended and chose to prioritize that work. It’s hard, you know, to take a pause from The daily work to leave, fly to [00:26:00] DC take those risks as well because for many of us, uh, going through TSA is no small thing.
There’s a lot of harassment and racism that still permeate, you know, these institutions. So not to minimize just the effort that ta- it takes to convene and really make the most of our time together. One of the things that we did while we were in DC together was hold a congressional briefing to really, uh, amplify and share the issues that were coming up for our communities that folks were already working very hard on.
Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA. Now let’s return to Rajiv Narayan, another member of the ASATA team and co-lead of their political action group, ASATA Power. Rajiv will take you inside the congressional briefing that Sabiha mentioned and how South Asian organizers from across the country shared the issues shaping their communities and what support is needed now
Rajiv Narayan: We in ASATA Power worked in [00:27:00] collaboration with a number of the organizations in the South Asian coalition, to put together a congressional briefing on the issue of South Asians and immigration in the heart of Washington, DC, in the halls of Congress in Capitol Hill.
And we were fortunate to do so in collaboration with Representatives Pramila Jayapal and Grace Meng. we had a number of, speakers representing, different perspectives and political struggles within the South Asian, uh, space in the United States, especially as it relates to immigration.
So, for example, we had representatives from the Dalit Solidarity Forum talking about the plight of oppressed workers, caste-oppressed workers, in New Jersey working in a Hindu temple.

Dr Roja Sunganthy-Singh – Dalit: I stand here as a Dalit, formerly known as an untouchable in India’s caste system, speaking for over two hundred skilled Dalit artisans who were brought to the US from India to build the largest Hindu temple in New Jersey.
In their words, ” We are the Indian stone workers of America, workers [00:28:00] rescued by the FBI in twenty twenty-one from forced labor conditions constructing the BAPS temple in New Jersey. we were brought to the US on R one visas and compelled to perform construction labor for over eighty-seven hours a week and paid just a dollar twenty an hour.
Rajiv Narayan: We heard from, um, the executive director of the Sikh Coalition talking about Sikh truck drivers and religious workers and their experience under the federal regime’s, uh, rule-making efforts.
Harman Singh – Sikh Coalition: Uh, Punjabi Sikhs began entering the US trucking industry in large numbers during the nineteen eighties, and Sikh truck drivers and business owners have played a critical role in addressing driver shortages over the past several years.
Unfortunately, Sikhs in this critical industry have become the subject of harmful rhetoric and policy from this current administration.
These drivers are being excluded solely because of their specific immigration status and regardless of their driving histories, skills, knowledge, or English proficiency.
Rajiv Narayan: We heard from, the executive director of Asian Refugees United, who [00:29:00] spoke about the experience of Bhutanese refugees who have been rendered stateless by the current administration’s, deportation efforts
Robin Gurung – ARU: Because of the ethnic cleansing campaign of Bhutan government, more than hundred thousand Bhutanese citizens were forced to flee the country.
For twenty years, I lived in a refugee camp in Nepal. In 2008, the government of this country came to rescue us. We were promised safety and security. But last year, that promise was broken. As of March 2025, over seventy of our community members are deported to Bhutan, the same country that persecuted us and made us refugees.
These community members are kidnapped from their homes and jobs. They have been taken from their routine ICE check-ins. We know due process was not followed.
Rajiv Narayan: We also heard from the executive director of Raksha, a domestic violence organization based in the Southern United States that has played an instrumental role in supporting South Asians who have been the victims [00:30:00] and who are now survivors of domestic and intimate partner violence, about the needs for supporting these kinds of organizations, with federal dollars and through the grant-making systems conditions.
Aparna Bhattacharyya – Raksha: For thirty years, we have supported community members in navigating interpersonal violence, but also waves of racism and policy backlash.
South Asian and Indo-Caribbean survivors need safe places to turn, safe places that speak their language, understand their unique immigration and cultural needs.
Raksha recently had $700,000 in OVC grants terminated by DOGE.
additionally, we are still waiting for OVW sexual assault cultural funds for five months, where we have gotten no determination of whether we’re getting that funding or not. Five months.
Rajiv Narayan: We also heard from, the director of the South Asian American Justice Collaborative, which is currently, before the US Supreme Court in the birthright citizenship case, and [00:31:00] filed this foundational amicus brief detailing the story of South Asians in the United States going back to the 1600s.
Klapana Peddibhotla – SAAJCO: Our brief pushes back against this notion that we are forever foreign.
South Asians actually arrived on these shores in the sixteen hundreds, and by the seventeen hundreds, South Asians were already asserting their rights here.
In an Afghan immigrant actually fought in the Civil War in the Union Army. by the late nineteenth century, the largest farming group in Central California was formed by Punjabis.
Today, South Asians are one of the largest immigrant populations in the US, but many families are caught in immigration backlogs that last for decades and make them vulnerable to the President’s executive order restricting birthright citizenship.
Rajiv Narayan: Across all of these speakers, you know, the, the, the message became very clear that we have so many different struggles, but they’re all [00:32:00] united by a sense of solidarity for each other’s political experiences under the same system of exploitation and oppression, and that there, there’s so much that Congress can do in this moment to support the South Asian diaspora in the United States and, and even abroad in some cases. for ASATA Power’s part, we, had the opportunity to put together over the course of the last year a policy brief on undocumented South Asians, and it was during the congressional briefing that we shared some pretty startling statistics that we, collected and collated from a number of public sources.
And so what we were able to identify for the room is that there are about eight hundred thousand to nine hundred thousand undocumented South Asians in the United States, and because there are only six point five million South Asians in the US, both those who are undocumented and those who have birthright citizenship or are otherwise naturalized, refugees, asylees, and, and everyone in between.
Of those six point five million South Asians One in eight of [00:33:00] them is undocumented, which is shocking and not something that somebody would understand at the outset given these problematic narratives like the model minority myth and whatever you see these days on X or Twitter about South Asian immigrants.
So it’s important for us not only to, to set the narrative straight and to identify both the diversity and opportunity for solidarity across our struggles, but to do so in the halls of power and to speak that truth to power directly.
Miata Tan : That’s Rajiv with ASATA Power reflecting on a recent congressional briefing in Washington, DC he helped to organize alongside other progressive South Asian leaders, organizers, and activists. Here’s a snippet of Rajiv’s opening remarks at the briefing
Rajiv Narayan: I want to draw your attention to the slide behind me,
they’ll show a couple of images of South Asian community members who’ve been impacted recently by the horrific policies and practices of the federal administration. These members include Sheraz Fatehali Sachwani, a forty-eight-year-old citizen of Pakistan who died in ICE [00:34:00] detention last December. They include seventy-three-year-old Harjit Kaur, who was arrested during a routine ICE check-in, separated from her family, and deported to India without notice.
I should say, I grew up seeing Harjit Kaur behind the counter at Sari Palace in Berkeley. She would help my mom try on saris. Her home was here. Her community was here. You know, these are just some of the names and stories of community members who have been affected by immigration policy as of late, and we hope that you will keep them in mind as you hear from our speakers today.
There are many more we were not able to picture or name, but their stories are just as important.
We’ll be making many asks over the course of today’s briefing. Some of those include the following: Congress should not increase funding for ICE or Border Patrol, including providing funds for detention facilities, especially in this funding moment.
We have to remember that ICE is not a long-standing American institution. It was created in two thousand and two, recently, as part of the Homeland Security Act following nine [00:35:00] eleven.
Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan with ASATA Power speaking at a recent congressional briefing in Washington, DC.
The briefing was part of a larger national convening organized by the South Asian Coalition, bringing together progressive South Asian groups from across the country.
Now let’s return to Deepa Iyer, who leads projects on solidarity and social movements at Building Movement Project here’s Deepa reflecting on her takeaways from the congressional briefing
Deepa Iyer: I think that there were so many pieces in that briefing that maybe people didn’t know about that organizations are struggling with, and part of it is that, um, our communities, and Sabihah said this earlier, are not a monolith, right?
And there are so many different ways in which we are experiencing what is happening right now in the United States, the fractures and the fissures that we’re seeing. Rajiv spoke so well about the community needs and issues. One thing I’ll lift up is actually the impact on nonprofit [00:36:00] organizations.
Several of the groups that were, uh, speaking at the briefing noted how the attacks on nonprofits that are specifically working on issues like immigration in terms of losing federal funding and grants, being forced to certify that they are not addressing issues work that deal with undocumented immigrants, as well as the ways in which, um, nonprofit organizations are being, in some ways, seen as doing risky and un-American work.
there is the, the exploitation of domestic terrorism as a frame that is being used right now to target certain nonprofit organizations. This is something that I think is not necessarily known to many people in terms of the ways in which national security, immigration issues are also affecting the nonprofit sector as a whole.
And where I work at the Building Movement Project, we really look at the nonprofit sector and the health of the nonprofit sector, and we’re [00:37:00] seeing that these types of external threats, the spotlight on organizations that are on the front lines, including South Asian groups, um, Muslim groups, Palestinian groups, that are working with, um, immigrant communities, queer and trans community members that are providing- Vital language access, service provision, community safety are really under threat right now, and this includes many of the organizations that were present at the, coalition’s convening.
So that’s something that I also wanna lift up, that in addition to our communities who are facing the impact of the current moment in really acute ways, our nonprofit sector and our organizations are also dealing with a range of constraints and threats and difficulties. So that is one thing that came up over and over again.
Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer with the Building Movement Project, highlighting the pressures facing the nonprofit sector right now, [00:38:00] especially as it relates to South Asian organizers, advocates, and communities.
Let’s return to Farah Mahesri with ASATA Pawa.
Farah Mahersi: One of the other things that I am very proud of for this congressional briefing that we did was that it was us telling our own stories and us presenting our own policy recommendations. There was no need to have, like, an expert come in and talk on behalf of our communities or try to represent our communities.
We were the experts in the room, and we were really recognized and seen as that. As Rajiv mentioned, you know, there, the room was packed with Hill staffers and congressional staffers who were taking diligent notes as we spoke our truths
Miata Tan : That was Farah Mahesri with ASATA Pawa reflecting on the recent congressional briefing she helped to organize, one that brought greater visibility to the experiences of South Asian immigrants. You’ll hear more on how South Asian activists, organizers, and community groups [00:39:00] are mobilizing after this. Stay with us

Miata Tan : [00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] That was Lion on the Hunt by Thao and the Get Down Stay Down. You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight, we’re talking about South Asian organizing in the United States and how community leaders are responding to immigration challenges, political representation, and the shifting landscape of civil rights
back in March, organizers and advocates from across the country gathered in Washington, DC for a national convening focused on the challenges and possibilities facing South Asian communities today.
Here’s Rajiv Narayan with the Alliance of [00:43:00] South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA, reflecting on the importance of honoring both the diversity of the South Asian diaspora and the shared struggle that connects these communities
Rajiv Narayan: Something I appreciate about, your work, Miata, at APEX Express, is to highlight both that diversity of the South Asian diaspora and the many struggles and experiences that unite our political experiences and our commitment to social justice.
It, it used to be, and in, in some places it still is the case, that folks will use an over-broad group to represent all of the South Asian diaspora. For example, talking about all Brown people as Indian or Desi or to, to collapse all the differences in our community. And part of the power of the congressional briefing is that we are able to show that what it means to be South Asian is at once an incredibly diverse expression and at the same time a collective expression of solidarity.
We can do two of these things at the same time. We can recognize our differences and fight for each other. One of my [00:44:00] favorite takeaways that I, I heard from Deepa at the briefing is that there are some staffers that came up to her and said, “I’ve never heard my story, my experience, my political struggles represented in a panel in this building in front of other congressional staffers.”
And that’s something that we can do, and we should do more of. There are so many ways in which we can tell the stories and highlight the campaigns of folks from different parts of the South Asian diaspora who are all fighting for a better life for all of us.
Miata Tan : That was Rajiv Narayan with ASATA, in the recent congressional briefing that Rajiv helped to organize through the South Asian Coalition, organizers also pointed toward the future of South Asian organizing in the United States and the role of a new generation shaping it.
back to Deepa Iyer with Building Movement Project. Here,
Deepa Iyer: Some of the young folks that are entering or working at nonprofits now, supporting South Asian nonprofits don’t have a living memory of 9/11 and the global war on terror, [00:45:00] and they have been politicized in different ways, right, over the last eight years, for example, the pandemic global wars, et cetera.
And so there are a couple of ways in which I’ve been thinking about how we can support South Asian young people. so for example, how can we share historical analysis and political analysis so that young people understand that they are part of a trajectory of South Asian activism that actually started well before 9/11, before the 1960s, right, and that continues to today, so they don’t feel fragmented.
So that’s something I’ve been sitting with a lot.
Another is around pathways into public service and community service and into the nonprofit sector. So how could we support young people in terms of building their skills, in having pathways open to them into our nonprofit organizations? And then finally, how do we support them, um, so that they, can do this work for the long run?
You know, we all struggle with burnout, we all [00:46:00] struggle with sustainability. what are some lessons learned that we can pass on? What are some best practices? that’s something that’s been sitting with me quite a bit since the gathering that we had, and I hope that the coalition will really think about, supporting young people’s leadership and finding different avenues and pathways to do that.
Miata Tan : That was Deepa Iyer reflecting on how movements can better support the next generation of South Asian organizers. Within the South Asian coalition, that work also means building long-term infrastructure for better collaboration. Now back to Sabiha Basrai with ASATA.
Sabiha Basrai: I’m also really appreciating that the South Asian Coalition is this model for creating a container for many, many organizations to unite as a group while maintaining regional focus and individual issue priorities. I also wanna name that the place where I first learned how to do national coalition work was as a member of the National South Asian Coalition that ASATA had been part of.
[00:47:00] It was facilitated by a group called SALT which played such a critical role in the post 9/11 era and continued to then work on DACA, creating resources for undocumented South Asians, along with other issues facing our diverse diasporas. And SALT closed a few years ago. It was a decision that I don’t understand and was- has really left me with a lot of sadness and confusion.
but I al- I know that sometimes institutions do end, but that the work does not end and the relationships do not end. And the South Asian Coalition is this emergent space that, um, is not led by any one organization. it is a space that is being invested in collectively, and we’re really moving at the speed of trust so that we can be really laying that strong foundation that supports the work ahead.
I’m really sitting with the ways in which sometimes this labor of Building the container, creating the container, [00:48:00] investing in the network.
It’s sometimes invisible labor, but it is the most critical because without it we can have moments of mass mobilization, but then that wasn’t actually building any power over the long term. And I’m really looking forward to all of the very good work ahead, because I trust the relationships and the containers that we’re building.
Miata Tan : That was Sabiha reflecting on the collaborative infrastructure that the South Asian Coalition is helping to build. Now let’s return to Deepa Iyer. I asked Deepa what campaigns are on the horizon for the coalition, especially as this year marks 25 years since 9/11.
Deepa Iyer: As Sabiha mentioned, the coalition is a space for invested leadership, and so there are lots of different campaigns that groups within the coalition are eyeing and taking on. One of them Rajiv mentioned already is the fight around birthright citizenship. And so there are groups like SACHCO and others that showed up with a South Asian [00:49:00] delegation at the Supreme Court on April 1st when that case was being heard, and it was really great to see so many South Asians out there in a delegation along with other communities, to raise their voices on this really vital, pivotal issue.
And so that is a campaign that some of the groups within the coalition are going to continue to be lifting up as we get the results of that case and moving forward. Another one that you mentioned, is around the 25th anniversary of 9/11, and there are groups that are considering, along with others in other movement spaces what does narrative strategy look like as we go into this time period?
How do we think about the fact that we’re marking the 25th anniversary in the same year that we’re marking the 250th anniversary of the United States, right? how do we use 9/11 and its anniversary as a lens through which we understand empire, through which we understand the ways in which domestic [00:50:00] policies are being recirculated against other communities?
And also this piece around awareness and education. this is an opportunity to share some of the personal experiences that many of us have around that moment in time, but also the ways in which our communities have built up themselves as well as the solidarity with other communities. So I think there are lots of ways in which organizations are thinking about that anniversary and how they can, utilize that moment, to draw greater attention to our community’s experiences.
Miata Tan : Rajiv, Farah, would you like to add anything about upcoming campaigns and how you’re thinking about the South Asian political power movement moving forwards?
Rajiv Narayan: Yeah, I’m happy to talk about one sort of continuing campaign, which is that, like I mentioned, we put together this policy brief on undocumented South Asians, and we had this great opportunity to circulate and talk about it on Capitol Hill in DC.
But it’s also important for us to bring that story home. And so part of [00:51:00] what we’ll be doing, um, for the remainder of, of this year is identifying opportunities to do town halls both, with community members and potentially with elected officials to help educate, do political education about the nature of undocumented peoples in the South Asian community.
A large part of what we did in that policy brief is to collate all these numbers to tell you, how many folks might be undocumented, what is the proportion of undocumented people in the South Asian community. But an important, equally important contribution of that report is the nature of undocumented experiences.
Why do people become undocumented? What are the factors that put them in that position, and what does it mean for a person to become undocumented? How can we support them, not just in different policy prescriptions, but also the ways that we talk about undocumented people and the South Asian community as a whole?
So that’ll, that’ll be, um, a focus that we have, uh, and a contribution that we hope to make both in the, the Bay Area and beyond.
Farah Mahersi: I’ll add to that, that it is election year. It is [00:52:00] a… I feel like we say every election is a critical election, and I do believe that that is very true this year. And so ASATA Power, as a political organization, will be making endorsements and talking through not just that it is important to vote, but it is really important and critical for us in this moment to vote for progressive candidates who are part of our, what is often called like a build coalition, who are here to help us build this world that we are dreaming of, who are aligned on policy positions.
The other thing that we are working on locally and nationally is around the war budget. So as a group that has been so directly impacted by the global war on terror 4.5 million Muslims around the world who have been killed by US war-making in that global war on terror, and just watching kind of what the United States foreign policy in particular over the last couple of years has been, we have a particular point of view and a particular interest on tracking and watching things like the [00:53:00] largest, request for a defense budget in US history.
How are those dollars being spent, And how those dollars that are being spent abroad to do war-making are also having a boomerang effect and coming back to impact our communities at home. So the same technologies that were developed and used in war-making through the global war on terror that impacted, uh, so many of our communities around the world for 25 years, a lot of that is the same technology that ICE is now using to go after undocumented South Asians in the United States, right?
And so that’s another way in which we really see our struggles are interconnected, and that we are wanting to dismantle als- a lot of these systems of harm, and also, again, at that intersection between both hate violence and state oppression that’s happening.
Miata Tan : That was Farah Mahestri with ASATA and ASATA Power. As she shared, ASATA Power is focused on the midterm elections and how war spending and post 9/11 policies continue to affect South Asian communities today.
[00:54:00] To close out, we return to another ASATA organizer, Sabiha Basrai.
Sabiha Basrai: So I wanted to bring the conversation back locally to the Bay Area again, and just thinking about, the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, which is, part of a network of AAPI and Asian organizing in the Bay Area as a space where South Asians progressive South Asians can actually build community, sharpen our political analysis, embrace our responsibilities here in the Bay Area in this political moment.
And just also, lifting up that ASATA currently is working on things like the Oakland Arms Embargo or local community defense against ICE , environmental justice projects, and also looking for more ways to fight supremacist ideologies of Hindutva but in collaboration with anti-Zionist Jewish community activists.
these are opportunities that we have here in the Bay Area. And also thinking about ways that we participate in mobilizations. Like, we show up for Reclaim MLK Day, [00:55:00] International Working Women’s Day, May Day, the Trans March every year because we understand our responsibility to show up and to show up consistently.
And so when I think about the South Asian Coalition and this moment of, okay, we’ve been trying to- we’ve built- been building towards this convening and this congressional briefing, and now we’re on the other side of this moment, and we are kind of reflecting and coming back together around how we maintain this energy.
Also wanted to highlight, Some of the amazing work that many of our coalition members are, are already doing. One is Savaira, so Savaira United Against Supremacy is actually a coalition of work as well, they focused, their energy on addressing Hindu nationalism and and Hindutva ideology and the, and the many ways in which, the supremacist ideology is kind of insidiously part of institutions, policy even cultural work, uh, within our diaspora.
they’re so committed to both, like, [00:56:00] resisting the tides of hatred but also combating all forms of supremacist politics and the intersections between them. so their, their work has been a big part of my political education, and I’m really glad that they’re part of this coalition. Every member of the coalition is bringing analysis and experience that cross-pollinates to the rest of us.
So I’m looking forward to just more of that also considering what ASATA’s role is and how ASATA working in the Bay Area alongside so many other amazing organizing projects here can be strengthening those relationships nationally.
Miata Tan : That was Sabiha Basrai with the Alliance of South Asians Taking Action, or ASATA.
This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. APEX Express airs every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM. And with that, we’re at the end of our time here [00:57:00] tonight.
We really appreciate you for tuning in to listen, and a huge thank you to our wonderful guests. For a transcript of tonight’s episode, please visit our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/apex-express
We’ve also added links on the episode page for tonight’s show so you can learn more about the South Asian Coalition, ASATA, and all of the organizations we’ve talked about tonight, along with their upcoming campaigns as well.
APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.
Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan.
Get some rest y’all.
The post APEX Express – 5.28.26 – Building South Asian Power appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 4.30.26 – Bruce Lee and the Manosphere
30 huhti· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight on APEX Express, Host Miko Lee focuses on Asian American Men, Bruce Lee and the mano-sphere. She chats with renowned author and thinker Jeff Chang about his new book: Bruce Lee & the making of Asian America, Water Mirror Echo. Then she talks with Rachel Koelzer the Communications Director for Nakasec about their new study of Asian American men and the manosphere.
How are images of Asian American male identify being shaped and formed in our current society and what does Bruce Lee have to do with this? Listen in.
More in tonight’s show
Jeff Chang’s book: Water, Mirror, Echo
Nakasec ReportAsian American Men and Mano-sphere
CAAMFest 2026, running May 7-10, 2026, San Francisco’s AMC Kabuki Theatre
Show Transcripts
[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:40] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Mika Lee, and tonight we are focusing on Asian American men, Bruce Lee and the Manosphere. I chat with renowned author and thinker Jeff Chang about his new book, Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America Water Mirror Echo. Then I speak with Rachel Koelzer, the communications director for NAKASEC, about their new study of Asian American men and the Manosphere. So how are images of Asian American male identity being shaped and formed in our current society, and what does Bruce Lee have to do with all this? First, listen to my conversation with author Jeff Chang. Welcome Jeff Chang to Apex Express.

[00:01:24] Jeff Chang: Ah, it’s so great to be here. Miko. So happy.

[00:01:27] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to talk with you about your latest book. You’re such a prolific writer, and here you have written a big Bruce Lee and the Making of Asian America Water Mirror Echo. Such a mighty title. I wanna start first just a question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:01:49] Jeff Chang: Oh my gosh. What a great question to start with. You know, my family, my communities, they all kind of blend together, the blood family, the kin family, and the chosen family, for me. I guess I’m always [laughs], I’m first born Chinese Kanaka, you know, I’m always aware that I am, representing, I guess, So I, you know, I carry that family with me wherever I go.

[00:02:16] Miko Lee: I, I think I know what that means. But for our audience that might not know what a firstborn Chinese kanaka means, can you break that down a little bit? What does that mean to you when you say that?

[00:02:25] Jeff Chang: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s just the, i, it it’s just a thing of, you know, you’re gonna go out and represent the family and, you’re thrust into Taking on responsibilities and stuff for your folks, your siblings, your, younger cousins, those kinds of things. I was always very aware of that within the family. My dad’s from a really big family, had six siblings and, my mom’s from a large extended, family. so that’s, That’s such a fantastic question Miko. Bruce was the second child, which, you know, birth order and all that kind of stuff. It also squares, I think with, a Chinese family. He felt like he was always in the shadow of his older brother.

[00:03:10] Miko Lee: Okay. Hold on. Let’s get to Bruce in a second. I wanna finish with you as an author, creator person.

[00:03:16] Jeff Chang: Okay.

[00:03:16] Miko Lee: Wait, so you are the number one son.

[00:03:18] Jeff Chang: I’m the number one son. Yeah.

[00:03:19] Miko Lee: Ooh, okay. I get it. Yeah. And then what is the legacy that you carry with you?

[00:03:24] Jeff Chang: The legacy. I just have to represent, in a point, a kind of a way, in a proper kind of a way. You know, the family , and those kinds of things. I was also very rebellious. I came back after my freshman year as the Berkeley Radical. My Uncle Fungi was like, oh, here comes the Berkeley radical. Okay. Then of course, you gotta sit down and drink beer and tell ’em , all the stories and that kind of thing. So, you know, just being able to, carry on, a legacy of being upright and being, just, right. And sort of being appropriate in all that you do. just aware of that. Grew up aware of that. Yeah.

[00:04:02] Miko Lee: And then what was your first memory of Bruce Lee?

[00:04:06] Jeff Chang: Ah, I don’t have a first memory. He was just part of the ether, you know what I mean? He was part of the

[00:04:10] Miko Lee: Ah, yeah.

[00:04:11] Jeff Chang: Yeah. He was part of the air. I think I came of age, after the generation, like my older cousins who were able to see Bruce in the theaters. We came up the next generation, we saw Bruce on tv. Return of the Dragon would come on and everybody would stop everything and just watch that. During the commercial breaks we’re jumping around and kicking each other and stuff like that. I mean that, that kind of thing, right?

[00:04:34] Miko Lee: Yeah, totally. When I was growing up, people would always ask me if I was related to Bruce Lee, because Lee, because that was like, right, yeah, Lee. Yeah. Yeah. There’s not a billion Lees’ in the world.

[00:04:44] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

[00:04:45] Miko Lee: Yeah. So I get it and I try to explain to my daughters, and our kids are around the same age, the cultural phenomenon that he was, and it’s hard to explain it to this generation because there wasn’t really other Asian American representation than Bruce Lee when we were growing up.

[00:05:03] Jeff Chang: Yeah. Yeah. And now they have Alysa Liu, you know, they have eileen Gu, they have all of these different folks. So if you don’t like Alysa, you could like Eileen. Or if you don’t like, if you like Eileen, you don’t have to like Alysa. Right. Or you can like ’em both. They have choices.

[00:05:14] Miko Lee: You could like Chloe.

[00:05:16] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They like Chloe, right? There’s choices. Yeah. Like Chloe’s on the Olympic stand with two other Asians. It’s just wild. It’s a beautiful thing. and it’s not like the kind of reality that we grew up in. It’s true.

[00:05:29] Miko Lee: Yeah. So what made you decide to write this book? you’ve written many books about pop culture and around theory and around Americana, and what made you decide to write a book about Bruce Lee?

[00:05:41] Jeff Chang: So the book came to me actually, it was an Asian American editor back during a time, not so long ago, but a while ago, when there weren’t a lot of Asian American editors in the business. And he came to me and that was amazing in and of itself. And he said basically, Hey man, you did this book on hip hop. This is back in, the latter part of the two thousands. I wanna imagine I haven’t gone back and looked at the date. ’cause it, it actually hurts me to think about it. But he saw you did this book like. Do you think you could do a book on Bruce Lee? And I was like, yeah, I could do that. I was hyped to do that. Please. Because Yeah. ’cause Bruce was our hero. Yeah. Just like we were talking about. The most famous Asian American who’s ever lived. It took me a long time to get going and I gotta admit I lost the plot at some point. I just was like, what am I doing? There were books that came out, about Bruce in the interim. there was one other biography that had come out, in the late 2010s,

[00:06:37] Miko Lee: and I think I told you about one of the books. I think it’s that book that I read written by a white guy and I wrote about it in good reads because I read a lot and that’s how I keep track of the books I read. I don’t think about anybody else reading those reviews that I write? It’s like writing in a journal or something. Now I use story graph ‘ it’s amazing. Not commercial, but at the time I used Goodreads and the author wrote back to me, I think I told you this story.

[00:07:04] Jeff Chang: Yeah, yeah. Tell me. Tell, so what did you write and what did the author write back to you?

[00:07:08] Miko Lee: I wrote that I thought that this author did not understand what an icon Bruce was to the Asian American community, and it was written in a way that didn’t, grasp the whole complexity of what he meant to us. He wrote this really, mean note back to me about how he had Shannon, Bruce’s daughter’s support and he was the one that could tell the story. And I thought, whoa, I was just shocked. That was the first time. Since then, I’ve had many different authors write back to me, but that was like the first one and wrote back in a mean way. So anyways.

[00:07:39] Jeff Chang: Was it public or this was a private, A private email back to you.

[00:07:43] Miko Lee: I think it’s public. I don’t know. Have to go look. I was shook at the time. Like what?

[00:07:49] Jeff Chang: Wow. Okay.

[00:07:50] Miko Lee: Anyway, so when I heard you were writing a book, I said, okay, finally, finally. Yay.

[00:07:55] Jeff Chang: Hmm. Yeah. You know, and I’ll be honest, I, I had this sort of crisis of confidence. I was sort of like, you know, this is, okay, we’ll put it out there. ’cause you already went there. It’s Matthew Polly’s book, Bruce Lee Life. I read it, he had done amazing research. He had spoken to a lot of people. I thought I was supposed to do this kind of a book. Now there’s a particular kind of genre, that folks who are maybe in the industry recognize and, it’s called I’m putting scare quotes around this, like the definitive biography,

[00:08:27] Miko Lee: right.

[00:08:28] Jeff Chang: In this particular case, the definitive biography, because he’s a movie star s. Sort of coincides or converges with this other genre, which is the celebrity biography. I’m putting scare quotes around that too. So, the mission of a celebrity biographer is really to tell a story of, this celebrity. Is not as cool as you think they are. Like, their crap stinks. They cheated on their spouses. They like didn’t file their taxes, they kicked their dog, they said mean things to different people. That’s a celebrity biography. It’s basically to tarnish the star. and if not, then it’s sort of a hagiography, which is sort of a whole other kind of thing. And we don’t wanna do that as writers. We wanna approach the truth. But there’s sort of a certain kind of thing that comes into play, with Bruce. There’s a sort of genre of the take down of Bruce where it’s usually men that are writing this, and the men are usually like, well, Bruce was my hero when I was a kid, but now I’ve gotta take him down. You know what I mean? It’s, and so you see it over and over again and, you know, there’s a sort of a weird thing going on, especially I think with, white males who have loved Bruce Lee in the past feeling like they need to take him down.So let’s say

[00:09:50] Miko Lee: Quinton Tarantino.

[00:09:52] Jeff Chang: Okay, you said it. I didn’t, but I was gonna say like Albert Goldman, who was a journalist who famously wrote a take down of Elvis Presley.

[00:10:00] Miko Lee: Right.

[00:10:01] Jeff Chang: and did one of Bruce that was unbelievably racist. Now, I’m not saying that Matthew was trying to do this at all. I think that his scholarship and his work was really, really good. But I, I felt crowded out a little bit. You know, I felt like, gosh, I don’t know what there is to say? I was very aware that there were a lot of books that had been written about Bruce and that I was writing into or out of, or in opposition to a tradition.

[00:10:30] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:31] Jeff Chang: These are the Bruce. Lee Stories. and so at that particular point, in the late 2000 tens, I just said, what am I gonna do? And Lourdes, my partner, walked me up to the park and just tore into me like, what, you’re gonna give up now? You can’t give up now. You gotta do this, you have to. Who else is gonna do this? And I’m just feeling all that, Chinese Kanaka, firstborn, guilt, responsibility. she’s about the only person that I can take a tongue lashing like that from. We walk back the mile to the house and my head was between my legs and I was like, all right, I’ll do it. I’ll do it. But I didn’t know what I was gonna do to be completely real. I didn’t know what I was gonna do. So the other thing that was kind of happening at this particular point was I was noticing, and you and I both have, children who are now adults, but at that time they were younger. They were like coming into their own, they’re in their teens and that kind of thing, and that particular generation was coming up in some ways. Like we talked about, like they had all of these folks that they could look to.

[00:11:34] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:34] Jeff Chang: Right. you know, our kids have opportunities in media that we never had.

[00:11:39] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:11:39] Jeff Chang: We’ve had to break through in a lot of ways. And there was also, in a weird way, this sort of entropy around this notion of Asian America. Like young people who call themselves Asian American would also sit around and be like, what even is an Asian American? How do I relate to these other types of folks who are also classed as Asian Americans, or who describe themselves as Asian Americans as well. Like politically, culturally, the kind of food we eat, the way we dress, who we hang out with. Like all of the diversity that we’ve celebrated for so many years felt like entropy, I think, to them like this is, there’s no center to this anymore. Then the pandemic happened and the violence, Was one way of saying this is it’s the ice cube moment. This is what they think of you. You know what I mean? Yeah. And, and I think that was what galvanized, especially a lot of young people to find a new sense of purpose, a new sense of activism, a new sense of, how to be in the world And

[00:12:43] Miko Lee: for maybe some young folks who had never felt that they had experienced direct racism before, to suddenly see it really blatant in the community.

[00:12:52] Jeff Chang: Right. And, it was personal. It touched all of us. I know everyone has stories about how we were treated during the pandemic, and especially the women and especially, the queer folks. In a lot of ways it was paradigm shifting and it was paradigm shifting for me too, you know, so I’m writing about this guy who considers himself a martial artist.

[00:13:13] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:14] Jeff Chang: And he’s teaching people about self-defense.

[00:13:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:19] Jeff Chang: And in his career being accused of fomenting violence, like a lot of. Folks in hip hop have been over the years.

[00:13:27] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:13:28] Jeff Chang: I’m suddenly like looking at this in a completely different light. What does it mean to think about self-defense and violence and training to be a warrior, right? I have a lot of folks who are in the military. My mom worked for the police department, like what does that mean? For somebody like me who’s, essentially anti militarist, who has critiques of the police, as we all should. who’s a deep supporter of Black Lives Matter, like how do we think about what it means to, to be a warrior, and also to understand like the dignity, right in wanting to be a protector.

[00:14:04] Miko Lee: Right.

[00:14:05] Jeff Chang: Right. And to, uplift what that means, but to kind of think about all of these existential questions and then at the same time to see Bruce popping back up on our walls and murals and popping up on our feeds as a symbol, right. Of pride. Especially during this particular period, near us in the bay, like in San Francisco, Chinatown or Oakland Chinatown, young people bringing back the image of Bruce as a symbol of pride and also this sort of cry for like, can you see us? This sort of underlying desire to find solidarity. All of this mixed up with this like identity crisis that is now taking a different type of turn. So it was a lot to think about and suddenly I was just like, oh, oh, oh, wait a minute. Maybe that’s what I’m supposed to write about. So the book became, about Bruce, but also about Bruce as an Asian American and about him kind of traveling parallel to the rise of the Asian American movement.

[00:15:04] Miko Lee: Yeah, I think it’s so powerful that way, that it does tell this whole Asian American history for folks that might not know from, the very beginning of our, coming from the exclusion act to I hotel, to Vincent Chin and not just like politically, but then also cinematically because he crossed over so many barriers for us. So we’re also getting Asian American cinema history with Anna May Wong and Sessue Hayakawa, and even the Hong Kong industry. So I love how you combined all these different elements. It’s such a wonderful way to look at that. And I’m wondering what made you decide to organize the book into these three categories of water, mirror, echo.

[00:15:44] Jeff Chang: The line came first, Bruce’s famous. Epigraph is, be water my friend, and, me being the nerd that I am, I wanted to trace the origins of that and found it pretty quickly, in a sort of, Daoist type of text. called the leads and the full, Section that, had influenced Bruce so much was moving be like water, still be like a mirror, respond like an echo. This is a line that actually resonates through Zen Buddhism as well. It was one of those things where when I first read it in Bruce’s Dao Jeet Kun Do, I fell outta my chair. It was amazing. It blew me away. We’d all heard “be water.” We’d heard athletes say it. we’d heard, business leaders, say, we saw the activists in Hong Kong, using it, in the streets. and. Yet to see all of this together was even deeper. That was a window into wow. We think of Bruce as the great popularizer of martial arts. Bruce, he’s not recognized as the great popularizer of Asian philosophy, in a lot of ways. It happened during this particular period during the sixties where, views of Asians and Asian Americans were beginning to shift dramatically, opening up in a lot of ways. So we had this phrase, my editor, Akia Clark, and I. She was like, all right, “how are you gonna organize this Jeff?” I was like, I don’t know, help me. And she’s like, all right, there’s a water, there’s a mirror, there’s an echo here. And it actually tracks to his life and the arc of his story and I was like, “oh, wow. Yeah.” So I can’t take any credit. I have to give it to my editor, who is,

[00:17:24] Miko Lee: that’s a good editor.

[00:17:25] Jeff Chang: Amazing. Yo, she was amazing. Rekia was like, I signed you because, I grew up and the only Asian I knew was Bruce Lee. She grew up in largely black communities. She was like, I need to know more. , I really want to hear your take on this. And, and So it was a, an incredible collaboration in that way because it was the type of here’s where we meet. She was literally giving me free reign to be able to tell me a story. Tell me why we’re meeting here. Right. Why were we meeting through Bruce? That ended up giving me so much confidence and focus after I’d had, all of these years of being in the woods and, uh, what am I gonna do? And then, Lourdes is trying to shake me up That’s kind of how it,

[00:18:09] Miko Lee: it took that time, that time to simmer, and your creative juices to be able to come up with this.

[00:18:15] Jeff Chang: Yeah. Yeah. It didn’t feel. Like it at the time, but looking back now, I’m not the fastest, ho nu in the water.

[00:18:22] Miko Lee: Because you talked a little bit about confidence and how much Bruce shared about, Asian philosophy, which I think is really true. I wonder if you could speak a little bit more about his sense of confidence, both in himself, and then a sense of destiny, like the mark that he was gonna leave on the planet.

[00:18:38] Jeff Chang: It’s very interesting to me because I think that this has been kind of, a part of the Bruce Lee legend. It was like he was born for a purpose. I was going through his papers and talking to, his, surviving family members and friends, like it was all improv.

[00:18:55] Miko Lee: Really him saying all those things was improv. What was all improv?

[00:18:59] Jeff Chang: Yeah. I think part of it, I think, well, maybe it wasn’t an all improv, certainly he was driven.

[00:19:04] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:04] Jeff Chang: He was incredibly ambitious and he was incredibly driven and he knew where he wanted to go. Absolutely 2000%, I think he entered this journey, like all of us in our journeys, you know, like we’re maybe packed for the journey, but we might find along the way that we don’t have what we need. I was attuned to the points where that narrative would break down. To all of the vulnerabilities that he was feeling in different moments. and especially because I got to talk to folks, who knew him, who maybe hadn’t necessarily been interviewed in like, the years. His very close Asian American friends, the folks who knew him, off the martial arts training floor. the folks who thought he was weird and kind of corny, folks at UW. All of these folks knew him at the University of Washington. And the, the common thing was, this guy’s goofy. He’s just had a one track mind. Like, he just wants to like show us like. Like Gung fu things all the time. Like who does that?

[00:20:08] Miko Lee: Like Bruce stop already. We heard that.

[00:20:10] Jeff Chang: right, right. Like punch me like, you want me to punch you? That was funny. You know, I was just, and that was sort of also a mind shift, you know, like

[00:20:19] Miko Lee: Yeah.

[00:20:19] Jeff Chang: It was like, oh, so there was a time before

[00:20:21] Miko Lee: he was revered,

[00:20:22] Jeff Chang: the cool guy. Yeah, before he was the cool guy. Then before he was the guy that was like super suave and like all the, whatever all the ladies wanted and all the guys wanted to be like, that’s been the Bruce narrative. So I was attuned to those parts and what strikes me is how much at the end he stuck to his guns. Like folks will read this in the last section of the book, and I don’t want to give it away, but this is when Destiny kicks in and Bruce rises to the top and he makes another dragon. He becomes this global star and it was meant to happen. And I was like, no. He was actually fighting every step of the way. Like every day of his life. He felt like this thing was gonna fall apart. At one time, he boycotted his own movie because they weren’t giving him what he wanted. Some of his closest friends say the real thing that killed him. People talk about the coroner’s report conspiracy, like evil spirits that, but what he really did was like sacrifice himself in a way. That’s how a lot of his friends talk about it, you know? From a sense of this deep personal loss of somebody whom they loved so much and who was like there one day and suddenly gone the next, And so, you know, to deal too with that, question of the melancholia that comes with what we experience when we’re the survivors of someone we love, who suffers a premature death. In that regard, like I feel like the last part of the book too was deeply informed by. All of the stuff that’s come before, with the Black Lives Matter movement. You know, and understanding, that these came from deep sources of grief and mourning and loss. Thinking about what it’s meant for Asian Americans to have to look at two generations before we get to the things that Bruce was fighting for representationally

[00:22:14] Miko Lee: Yeah.

[00:22:14] Jeff Chang: You know, before we can get to everything everywhere, all at once. And Michelle Yeoh, receiving the Oscar for that. Like it took two generations. It took Brandon passing away one generation after his father, and then it took a whole bunch of other work that, a lot of folks needed to do in order for us to be able to. Get the kinds of representations that we hoped that we might see after, another dragon. and that, something that, has produced a melancholia in us, you know?

[00:22:48] Miko Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:49] Jeff Chang: So.

[00:22:50] Miko Lee: You are talking a little bit about the people that you interviewed and there’s so many clearly that you did, and when I was reading it, the backstory of Taki, that was when I thought, oh, this is an Asian American author. I mean, I know you, but it like, including that whole backstory I thought was so powerful and actually helped to build out the story of who he is, who his friends were and how he worked with them. I’m wondering if there’s an interview that you didn’t get.

[00:23:14] Jeff Chang: So many. So many.

[00:23:16] Miko Lee: Oh really?

[00:23:17] Jeff Chang: Yeah. I mean, I haven’t gone back to look at the original contract and the date because so many people passed away. I got started on this, I had three other books that I had to complete from my, publisher at the time this book was signed out of, those contracts. I had had a full-time job then, and then when the, pandemic and BLM sort of reached that inflection point, it was a much more than full-time job. I didn’t have time to be able to actually devote the book that I really needed to. I did research over a very long course of time. I did interviews over a very long course of time, but I started the interviews too late, so I couldn’t interview Taki.

[00:23:54] Miko Lee: oh wow. Okay.

[00:23:55] Jeff Chang: I couldn’t, yeah. Taki, was, alive. He lived to a very old age, but Alzheimer’s. Um,

[00:24:01] Miko Lee: oh wow.

[00:24:02] Jeff Chang: Took him, you know? By the time I started reaching out, it was a little bit like too late. I spoke to his son instead at great length. and a lot of other folks around, him. There wasn’t just one, there were a million interviews. I didn’t get. Taki, I didn’t interview Jesse Glover. I would’ve loved to have interviewed some of his friends From Hong Kong, but we couldn’t access them because of the pandemic. I had an amazing researcher on the ground, Winnie Fu who, did a lot of amazing work there and was able to source a lot of stuff for us. There was so many people, and even now, like I was just up in Seattle for the unveiling of the Bruce Lee postage stamp, and I got to meet a friend of his from high school, and so I’m gonna sit down. I’ve been talking with Shannon’s, cousin, Bruce’s niece who has been keeping the genealogies of the family. We’ve been talking a lot. I’m gonna go back and interview her, and so hopefully maybe by the time the paperback edition comes around, I might be able to have some new information that I might be able to throw in in that edition.

[00:25:03] Miko Lee: Yeah. What surprised you most about the research?

[00:25:06] Jeff Chang: I think that Bruce was vulnerable. He felt very lonely a lot of the time. he had set himself out like this huge impossible dream in some ways. he knew his destination. He had no idea how he was gonna get there. That’s where I talk about it was all improv. and at different points he despaired. I don’t know if these folks are really seeing me, I don’t think they really understand me. After the Green Hornet, he couldn’t get a job. That he felt was befitting him, you know? So he’s taking whatever work he can get. He’s working as a fight choreographer for Nancy Kwan. And, just doing what he can and he’s relying upon people to put him on. He’s doing Gung FU training of a lot of the Hollywood top brass. So he can reach out to them, but even they don’t believe in him. They don’t believe in him like that. That’s why he decides he has to leave. But it takes him literally four years to realize, oh, they don’t see me as a main character. They don’t see me the way I see myself. Yeah. So I gotta go. Even then he’s still trying to get on the TV show, Kung fu. When that door slams and they cast David Carradine yellow face, he’s like, oh, that, and that’s when the ice cube moment really sets in for him. Like, that’s how they see me. That’s how they really understand me. After that, he’s fighting this battle to try to get back to Hollywood. That’s, one of the things he feels like he really wants to do. his thought is that I need to build up as much capital as I possibly can in order to be able to negotiate from a point of, strength. It’s just very hip hop. It’s very wutang clan. He’s able to kind of get there. But he’s still gotta fight these battles at the end. They just wanted him to shut up and kick. They gave him a black CoStar and a white CoStar because they were afraid that an Asian lead wouldn’t make it. They wanted to name the movie Hans Island. Not Enter the Dragon because, Oriental villains were easier to understand than an Asian American male lead. So

[00:27:00] Miko Lee: that’s such a horrible title too.

[00:27:02] Jeff Chang: Oh my God. How can you imagine we would not be talking about Hans Island.

[00:27:07] Miko Lee: I don’t know how they thought that was a good idea.

[00:27:10] Jeff Chang: Yeah, it’s true.

[00:27:11] Miko Lee: Is there anything else that you would like your audiences that to understand about Bruce Lee?

[00:27:16] Jeff Chang: What I tried to do is portray him in the context that he actually lived in, We’ve got the legend of Bruce, we’ve got the stories, of Bruce that have kind of burnished the legend. What I tried to do was to try to put him back as a human being, as a young person walking through Hong Kong streets and the streets of China, you know, down Grant and then, down King Street in Seattle. making it up to the studios, in Hollywood. and what that meant, for him to, actually accomplish all this kind of stuff. Because when we take away the legend, and this is one of the things I was worried about too, back in the late 2000 tens when I was like, I don’t know what I’m gonna write. When you take away the legend. I was worried that people were gonna be like, oh, you just want to drag down this guy? And you’re like the guy that’s just throwing water on our hero. But what I’m, really understanding now is. when you look back at what he went through and what he overcame, he actually becomes even more heroic, to all of us. He wasn’t a perfect person. but I think he remains a hero like more than a half century after his passing because of the things that he did.

[00:28:28] Miko Lee: I think that’s right and I think you do an amazing job in the book of incorporating this powerful Asian American history and putting, his experience in a time and place that helps the broader world understand what an icon he is and remains. And I really appreciate you for writing this book and taking this time and the amount of energy it took to Percolate really pays off.

[00:28:52] Jeff Chang: Thanks so much. I so appreciate you.

[00:28:55] Miko Lee: So I’m gonna be interviewing NAKASEC on their new study on Asian American Men in the Manosphere. Are you familiar about this?

[00:29:02] Jeff Chang: Oh, I can’t wait to read this. I cannot wait to read this. It’s so,

[00:29:06] Miko Lee: do you know about this? No. To this report.

[00:29:08] Jeff Chang: I didn’t know about it. I didn’t know about it. I’m, I’m glad somebody’s doing it.

[00:29:11] Miko Lee: Yeah. So they did a whole survey and they found that there is a lot of Asian American men that are part of the manosphere. Mm-hmm. And I’m wondering for you, who’s written about Asian American male identity, if you have thoughts about this?

[00:29:26] Jeff Chang: So many thoughts. I was very much thinking about the Asian American manosphere as I was writing this book, because these are my cousins, these are my friends, these are, folks who I’ve sparred with.

[00:29:39] Miko Lee: Right.

[00:29:40] Jeff Chang: These are conversations I’m having with folks, at the bar over a meal. I’m really interested in seeing how we’re able to understand what the appeal of the far right has been around questions, of masculinity in this moment and to win these folks back. I’ve also seen on the flip side, shifts and changes, around, how Asian American masculinity is displayed sea on social media in this era of a crackdown in immigration.

[00:30:19] Miko Lee: Yeah.

[00:30:20] Jeff Chang: We really do need solidarity. We really do identify with, what Latinos, are going through. What I worry about is that, the Asian American left, our first in instinct would be just to be like, ah, I can’t talk to them. it’s Gonna like upset me too much. I can’t deal with this. Somebody has to,, because that, those are our folks and we’ve lost them over the last, five years or so and we’ve gotta get ’em back.

[00:30:45] Miko Lee: And are there folks that you know of that are working specifically on ways to pull this community back?

[00:30:50] Jeff Chang: I imagine that there’s a lot of work on the ground that’s happening. because this is the, world that I’m in, I look to the folks who are, doing podcasts or doing social media work and, who are, often, men who. Are, you know, kind of like me, like troubled by this development and trying to find a way to speak to their folks as well. I’m monitoring that. I’m not, deep within it, but, like I said, I wrote this book, understanding that, that particular subset of our community. those are the folks that, are the Bruce Lee fans.

[00:31:22] Miko Lee: Yeah.

[00:31:23] Jeff Chang: and are the folks who are, involved in, mixed martial arts and, involved in, athletics and, all these other kinds of things. And, and they’re not too far away.

[00:31:33] Miko Lee: Yeah. It feels like there’s a disconnect between that kind of loving of Bruce Lee and that world, and interaction with politics, interaction with the current events and how that’s impacting them and their families.

[00:31:48] Jeff Chang: Well, I think it’s. Yeah. I put that down to the fragmentation of the way that we receive media.

[00:31:54] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:31:55] Jeff Chang: You know, and also, of course, the ways in which social media is geared towards the extremes. The way it’s geared towards the extremes and towards lifting up the. Loudest crudest voices sometimes. Mm-hmm. That’s exactly where the manosphere originates from. Right? That’s where it

[00:32:15] Miko Lee: lives.

[00:32:15] Jeff Chang: Yeah. That’s where it lives, is inside that pocket. It’s about again, trying to get inside of that and what’s causing that. What’s the melancholia that’s behind that? What is generating this rage, this fury, and being able to channel that, fury, that anger into, ways that will actually help not just all of us, but specifically them.

[00:32:39] Miko Lee: Yeah.

[00:32:40] Jeff Chang: That’s an organizing problem that we have to take up.

[00:32:43] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I’m gonna send you the research, the report so you can read it and,

[00:32:48] Jeff Chang: uh, I can’t wait to break this open. Oh,

[00:32:52] Miko Lee: okay. I appreciate you. Thanks so much.

[00:32:54] Jeff Chang: Thank you.

[00:32:55] Miko Lee: Next up I speak with Rachel Kelzer, the communications director for NAKASEC, about their new study of Asian American men and the manosphere.Welcome Rachel Koelzer, communications Director for NAKASEC. Welcome to Apex Express.

[00:33:12] Rachel Koelzer: Hi. Thank you so much for having me today.

[00:33:15] Miko Lee: Can you first explain for our audience, your organization that you work with NAKASEC

[00:33:19] Rachel Koelzer: So NAKASEC is short for the National Korean American Service and Education Consortium. We are a national network of five affiliated organizations in six states.

[00:33:32] Miko Lee: Thank you. I wanna start with the question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:33:41] Rachel Koelzer: This is a great question. My people are the dreamers. They are the community rooted, change makers who believe that we are accountable and responsible to each other. For our collective wellbeing, our collective liberation, and our collective joy and care for each other. My people are also Korean adoptees, part of the Asian diaspora, and people who have survived challenges of life and still seek joy and to thrive.

[00:34:23] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. Through your work at NAKASEC, you recently released this report with a big old title, Asian Men, the Manosphere and Social Media, an Inflection Point for Asian American Advocacy and American Democracy. Wow. Can you first talk about what inspired this study?

[00:34:43] Rachel Koelzer: I became aware that there was this ongoing trend and challenge that we were having of not reaching young Asian men. Our followers were predominantly non men. Based on gender and significantly more women following us. Something like 70 30, 80 20. I talked with other organizations who also do advocacy and community based work who also faced similar challenges. I just wondered why. What is it that is preventing us from effectively reaching this large portion of our community that we serve? So from there we went and partnered with Dr. Tom Wong, and really started to dive into exploring the reasons behind it.

[00:35:34] Miko Lee: So let’s back up for a second. Can you explain for our audience what the manosphere is?

[00:35:40] Rachel Koelzer: The manosphere in kind of simplified terms, it’s a loosely connected network, of online communities, influencers and content creators who focus on men’s issues, masculinity, dating, health and fitness, financial wealth, and gender dynamics. It includes this wide spectrum of content, that range from like the more everyday fitness self-help. To more controversial topics, like anti-feminism, traditional gender roles and critiques of modern women in society. The common thread across these, loosely connected, communities and spaces is this underlying thread of traditional gender norms and expectations.

[00:36:30] Miko Lee: So is the manosphere inherently misogynistic?

[00:36:34] Rachel Koelzer: Yes.

[00:36:35] Miko Lee: Well that was a really quick response. Yes. No question.

[00:36:38] Rachel Koelzer: [Laughter] I being real here, you know? Yeah. It is.

[00:36:46] Miko Lee: Okay.

[00:36:46] Rachel Koelzer: So within the broader manosphere, there’s also men’s rights activists. Some more like toxic masculine type views. There is a little bit of a range, but yes, inherently, there’s deep rooted misogyny.

[00:36:58] Miko Lee: So how did you find people for your Study were they self-described people that participated in the manosphere?

[00:37:06] Rachel Koelzer: We partnered with Dr. Tom Wong, who is at the University of California, San Diego to conduct this survey. He used the voter file. They are self-identified Asian men and we set the parameters to be between the ages of 18 to 45. They identified across political ideology, across political party, and started with more general questions around their social media use. What platforms were they on? What, were the reasons that they were on social media. Who did they follow? To get a baseline understanding of where and what they’re consuming. We know that they’re online. There were questions about engagement with the manosphere.

[00:37:52] Miko Lee: What did this study reveal? What was surprising to you?

[00:37:57] Rachel Koelzer: What was really shocking is that one in five young Asian men are regularly engaging with manosphere content. That’s 20% one in five.

[00:38:07] Miko Lee: That’s a huge number.

[00:38:08] Rachel Koelzer: It’s a huge number. Yeah. They’re engaging with this content that is, starting off pretty innocuous like, you want to look better, you want to feel better, you want to have better relationships. What’s being embedded in that to varying degrees of, subtlety are these values of more traditional expectations and roles. It’s alarming that this that this many young Asian men are regularly engaging with it. We defined engaging, as, commenting, following, sharing. There were questions about how often they’re seeing it across their feed, whether or not they’re looking for it or not. We found that 35% of young Asian men are encountering manosphere content on their social media feeds several times a week.

[00:39:00] Miko Lee: Are they identifying it as manosphere content?

[00:39:04] Rachel Koelzer: They identified it, yes. In the survey we did provide a definition. Beforehand of what the manosphere was, and so anything within that would have to fall under this category.

[00:39:17] Miko Lee: Are most of those influencers and content creators, Asian American men also?

[00:39:23] Rachel Koelzer: That’s a really good question. When both Dr. Wong and our team, NAKASEC team, were doing some research there, we didn’t actually come across when we were looking at like the bigger names, right? Tens of thousands, upwards of millions followers. We didn’t really come across many of those large followers that are Asian men. The men that are perpetuating it, regardless of their race or ethnic background. I think what that points to, you mentioned white supremacy earlier, but there’s this idea and value that’s perpetuated of colorblindness. And so in this space, the gender kind of supersedes the race. What was really curious is, later on in the study we also asked, about early childhood experiences and lessons, from the adults in their lives around masculine values, around showing and expressing emotions, and around representation of asian men in the media. A large portion agreed that the overall representation of Asian men is harmful. We know for those of us who have been interrogating our experiences in the world for a while. We know that Asians and Asian men in particular, we’re stereotyped, we’re troped in a lot of ways, right, of these feminine, unattractive, nerdy, geeky, or you’ve got the other side, you’ve got the Bruce Lees, you’ve got the Jackie Chans, right? There’s a flattening that happens and . I think that is where the manosphere is dangerous and potentially even more appealing to communities who feel that they’ve been overlooked and undervalued, because it offers answers and those answers are really harmful to other communities, but they’re still providing answers.

[00:41:28] Miko Lee: Can we speak a little bit more about the perceptions of Asian Americans in the media There’s the stereotypes around women being either the dragon woman or the sexual exotic kind of play toy. Asian men, as you were pointing out, it’s either the kung fu guy or the nerdy guy or the effeminate guy. Right. There’s like not that much distinction. Is that your perception as well?

[00:41:57] Rachel Koelzer: Yes. I think there’s been, even from when I was a child and growing up, over the past 30 years, there’s been, improvements. But I think overall yes.

[00:42:08] Miko Lee: When I grew up, the only images were movies and television, and there just was not that much. So we did have those stereotype visions, but it was so limited in scope and content. There just was not as much content. Now it’s everywhere. There’s content in your phone, there’s all these different social media apps, there’s all these different channels you can watch. I’m wondering how that has impacted Asian Americans men’s perspectives on how they see themselves and if that. Just looking at social media and the manosphere and how that impacted, the reason why you did the study and the outcomes of the study.

[00:42:46] Rachel Koelzer: The study showed that 26.7% of the men who were surveyed feel that Asian men are portrayed favorably in social media. That’s actually still a very low percentage. 71.6% agree that Asian men are often underrepresented or stereotyped in media and popular culture. Even though yes, there’s still greater representation, that there’s still the portrayals and the quality and caliber or what that representation actually is, or how it’s developed is still significantly lacking. What the manosphere offers, one, it offers answers as to how you might get away from, from those, right? You might be able to get out of that, which is to be this hyper quote unquote, masculine, dominating, character. It points the blame directly away from systems like patriarchy and white supremacy. It doesn’t really interrogate what internalized misogyny, internalized racism, looks like and is doing. It’s saying. You know what the problem is actually that women are becoming too independent. The problem is that, men are becoming too effeminate, and so there’s this combination of race blindness and naming another villain in a way that punches down.

[00:44:32] It’s a combination of looking for genuine insight and information to better understand their experiences and they’re finding answers, but the quality of those answers and the ways that they’re getting pushed to those are very problematic, very concerning. Not just for what that means for women in queer rights and immigrant rights and marginalized communities rights. These kinds of values that are being espoused and normalized. But what that means for, , how someone starts to view themselves and, their role in the world and the impact that that has on the systems, and structures of our society.

[00:45:13] Miko Lee: There’s so many interesting things that you said. I heard you say the men are finding a sense of belonging in the manosphere, and they’re getting answers and the answers being right wing propaganda, which is being fed to them. Is that right?

[00:45:26] Rachel Koelzer: Yeah, I think that’s right. The problem is the quality of the answers that they’re receiving. The values that are embedded within that, whether or not they’re being explicitly named, it’s not. There are, again, if you go further, deeper, there are folks that are very proud to be part of the manosphere. That is a known and a shared identity as far as like we are part of the manosphere.Then there are those, I think Joe Rogan himself is like, I’m not part of that, but if you listen to his content and his messages, right? There’s a lot of those traditional right wing, very violent and misogynistic roots that are coming out in there.

[00:46:13] It starts off very innocuously looking for answers, looking to better understand your life, your experiences, and what you can do about it. That’s innocuous enough. Right. And there’s even, like, there’s a lot to be said about that kind of,, what’s the word I’m trying to think of,, initiative, right? To better understand and seek resources and things. But unfortunately through a combination of the algorithm. Through investments into these kinds of content creators, , and spaces we’re seeing that those proliferating a lot more. And so whether or not young Asian men are intentionally seeking this type of content, they’re being fed it regularly.

[00:46:54] Miko Lee: I also heard you this comment about race blindness. I get that it because it’s like men, men, men we’re men and we’re bounding together. But race blindness feels like a rube, if you will, for, white supremacy and misogyny. It’s this way of saying we are all one, but very much targeting, specific folks that are not in positions of power and control.

[00:47:21] Rachel Koelzer: Yeah, absolutely. It flattens and erases the experiences of people who have been marginalized through, our laws, our policies, and it stops the need. It stops the self-reflection and interrogation too that is asked of us otherwise, which is to reflect on what power do I hold and what is my responsibility with that power, whether it’s, having more privilege because I’m a citizen. Having privilege because you are a man. Even if you are also, historically and presently marginalized because of your race as an Asian person, it reduces that depth and again, that responsibility for self-reflection and interrogation.

[00:48:22] Miko Lee: So given all that, your report says this is a warning sign, which clearly it is and an opportunity. I wonder if you could talk a bit more about what is the opportunity here as we’re in this time of great change. Great revolution, the year of the fire horse. Talk about how we can actively disrupt that pipeline to radical extremism.

[00:48:46] Rachel Koelzer: It’s an important question and it’s an important conversation that we need to have. There needs to be an awareness and an understanding of what it is that, is threatening the health and wellbeing of our community and of our country. What this study showed is we’re at an inflection point. The percentages, the numbers, we’re not so far down the rabbit hole, but we’re like right on the edge. We’re like at this tipping point, and so intervention is necessary now. This is a great opportunity for organizations, for community leaders to be having these conversations. To be engaging in political education with their community members to be, educating and informing and connecting with members of their community, particularly young Asian men. And it’s an opportunity for these in-person spaces and these digital spaces to be countering the manosphere with our own answers.

[00:49:51] I think that’s one of the biggest things, especially when we’re talking about a digital space, to be investing in content creators, to be investing in artists, to be investing in doing the work of putting out our own answers and solutions. Explanations and analysis of what is happening. It’s a call to action and an opportunity for funders, donors for people who have the ability, to put money behind these kinds of spaces online. There’s just this significant disparate investment. It’s an opportunity to be really investing in community, really investing in recreating spaces, building out spaces, I’m thinking particularly again, community-based organizations who can be understanding what the risks and threats are and understanding their communities where they are, and not necessarily adding to, but, with this threat in mind, how does that inform the spaces that you’re creating or the strategies that you are engaging?Whether it’s online or in person.

[00:51:13] Miko Lee: We need to gather up our brothers, our nephews, our uncles, gather ’em all up, talk about our real, Asian American history of resistance, our power, our ability to move forward, connect with that in person, pull them outta the manosphere, connect all together so that we could move forward as a community in solidarity with each other.

[00:51:37] Rachel Koelzer: Absolutely. There’s opportunities across the board regardless, of where your particular position is. Even if you’re not a part of a community organization or you’re a teacher, a parent. One of the things that also came up in this study was that across ideologies, across the political spectrum and across age groups, there was a significant number. It was like close to 70 or over 70% had shared experiences, of being discouraged from showing emotions, from being, from seeing, modeled from the men in their lives, examples of stoicism. Of, more traditional masculinity, more traditional gender norms. And so there is this also aspect of, yeah, bringing in folks, bringing in our nephews, our brothers, our cousins, our friends, our uncles, and a reflection upon what can we do to be, raising our next generations, our current and our next generations, to value themselves and those around them who are different.
To be able to express emotions, be able to have deep, reciprocal relationships, , and to have respect and understand what it means to reflect on one’s privilege that comes as a result of, an identity in this very hierarchical world, whether it’s, as a man under patriarchy or white, under white supremacy. These are skills that can be taught and can be learned. I think that this is also an opportunity to be reflecting on how we as a society understanding these

[00:53:33] Miko Lee: Well, Rachel Koelzer, thank you so much for joining me and sharing about your report. How can people find out more about your work?

[00:53:42] Rachel Koelzer: Thank you so much for having me. You can follow NAKASEC on most social media platforms. Visit our website. We’ve got tons of resources and information there and check out our local affiliates. You can find out more about them on our website and on our socials. If you are, you know, in the area, would love to see you.

[00:54:01] Miko Lee: Thank you so much.

[00:54:03] Rachel Koelzer: Thank you.

[00:54:04] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us. Just a note that Apex Express will be off air for fundrive until May 28th, but we wanna acknowledge that May is Asian American, native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, and there are film festivals and cultural events happening all around the country that celebrate our diverse experiences. One Bay Area one to note is CAAMFEST. It’s back! The center of Asian American media returns for its 44th year and its festival from May 7th through the 10th is at the Kabuki Theater, a MC in San Francisco with an amazing program of impressive filmmakers. Check it out, maybe I’ll see you there and happy AANHPI month. Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night..

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APEX Express – 4.23.26 – Nurses of The Pitt
23 huhti· KPFA - APEX Express
APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight, host Isabel Li speaks with actresses Amielynn Abellera and Kristin Villanueva, who respectively play Nurse Perlah and Nurse Princess on the HBO Max medical drama, The Pitt. Abellera and Villanueva talk about their Filipino heritage and backgrounds and how they represent Filipina healthcare professionals on the show.
See also: Filipinos on the Frontline
Amielynn Abellera: Instagram
Kristin Villanueva: Instagram
Transcript
[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.
00:00:52 Isabel Li
Thank you for tuning in to Apex Express. Last Thursday, season 2 of the HBO Max medical drama The Pitt released its season 2 finale, including a hectic season following medical professionals in the emergency room and giving a realistic depiction of real-world issues in hospitals. I’m Isabel Li, one of the hosts here on APEX Express, and I’m so honored to be joined by two members of that cast tonight who play the two Filipina nurses on The Pitt. They were recently awarded the Actor Award for Outstanding Performance by an Ensemble in a Drama Series.
00:01:28 Isabel Li
First, let’s hear from actress Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perla, a Muslim Filipina nurse on the show.
00:01:36 Isabel Li
Hi Amielynn, what an honor it is to be speaking to you today. Welcome to Apex Express.
00:01:41 Amielynn Abellera
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be speaking with you, too.
00:01:45 Isabel Li
So many of our listeners might know you from the HBO Max show, The Pitt, which I have so very much enjoyed. This is actually the first medical show that I have watched, and I really, really admire, like, all of the ensemble casts and, you know, everything coming to life. And you play the Muslim Filipina nurse, Perlah Alawi. We’ll talk more about your performance and your character in a little bit, but first, this is a question that I ask all my guests: Can you tell us, how do you identify? And is there a story that you think really encapsulates your identity?
00:02:17 Amielynn Abellera
Gosh, I identify as Amielynn Dumac Abellera. She, her, hers. I’m a Filipino American, daughter of two immigrants. And I’m so thrilled and happy to be talking to you and to sharing my experience of my life.
00:02:42 Isabel Li
Absolutely. Of course, The Pitt is a medical show. And is it true that you come from a medical background yourself? Like I heard that you were a psychobiology major in undergrad.
00:02:51 Amielynn Abellera
Yeah, I was pursuing medicine for a long time. I studied pre-med in undergrad at Santa Clara University, majoring in psychobiology, which is psychology with basically a minor in biology. I really wanted to get into neuroscience and or be an oncologist. And I was pursuing that all the way till I graduated and applying to medical school and getting interviews. But ever since I was a kid, for as long as I can remember, I was really also passionate about acting and theater and film and television and being on stage. But it was really just seen as a hobby in my mind and in sort of my environment’s mind. I never really prioritized it as a career, and it was never seen as a possible career. Um, so I just had it on the back burner. And, you know, I was getting, getting closer and closer to medical school and getting more and more anxious that I would regret not pursuing acting. And so sort of after waffling for many years, I decided to audition for a master’s in fine arts and acting. And that was because I didn’t really have any formal training in acting. I didn’t study it in undergrad or, you know, in my younger years. It was just all through life experience and being in plays and art and everything like that. And so I thought if I get into one of these programs, maybe that means I have something to offer. And I was going to take that as the sign that I needed to give myself a chance. And so I got into two programs, and I was thrilled. And I moved to LA to attend the University of Southern California’s MFA program. And the rest is history. Here I am.
00:04:47 Isabel Li
Wow. How does being a former pre-med influence your current role as a nurse on the show? Do you remember any like terms from science classes that you’re like, oh, wow, I remember that in those lines.
00:05:00 Amielynn Abellera
Yeah, yeah, totally. And you know, I spent a lot of time in hospitals and clinics and my dad is a former family practitioner. He had his own medical practice and my mom is a nurse practitioner and she worked in the CCU in the hospital for many years. So I was really familiar with how nurses interacted with patients and hearing the terminology and the medical language a lot.
So it is a cool throwback and always a really, I love how it’s so familiar to me ’cause it’s, I still have to work at it quite a bit when, you know, when it’s all coming at me and I have to have it down for when we’re filming, but I’m not as, as intimidated by it as I probably would be if I didn’t have a background.
00:05:50 Isabel Li
And out of curiosity, when you got the audition for the pit, did you have to sort of immerse yourself back into that realm of science and that medical background in order to bring out that character when you were first being introduced to Nurse Perlah?
00:06:04 Amielynn Abellera
Yeah, a little bit. And I feel that with any role, you kind of, before you go in for the audition or even when you’re now filming or you have a part, you just have to kind of get into that world, obviously and really put yourself in the actual experience of what this person’s going through. And it did help me to be able to use my imagination so vividly from my previous experience of being in an OR and being in a hospital.
I remember when I was doing an internship when I was sort of in the break between graduating undergrad and pursuing medical school, I remember watching a C-section. And I remember — I remember the doctors talking, the surgeons talking, the anesthetic going in, the blood everywhere, the scalpels, the blood pressures, the oxymeter dropping. So, it really — I think back to the real-life fear that I had in all of those those procedures and I just, you know, bring it to Nurse Perlah.
00:07:16 Isabel Li
It’s incredible. I want to start off by talking about, for Nurse Perlah specifically, that Perlah’s identity is a Filipina and a Muslim nurse.
What did you do to prepare for a role that is so specific in terms of these cultural representations?
00:07:33 Amielynn Abellera
Sure. Thank you for asking that. I am thrilled that Perlah is on television. She is a Filipino American Muslim woman nurse. And I have never seen that. And it’s just rarely ever seen on mainstream media. So, in preparing for it, I mean, truly, I had two weeks before we started filming by the time I got the role. And it was go time already. So I didn’t have a ton of time, but I did my best to sort of deep dive into learning about the Muslim faith, trying to reach out to different Filipino American Muslims in my community to kind of just hear their experience. And, you know, I quickly learned that it would be impossible for me to sort of understand the full experience completely. And so I just kind of, I realized that the only question that I needed to answer for myself going into filming as Perlah was, is there anything about the Muslim way of life that would influence or adjust or be a part of their nursing or would it shift it at all? And or how would it affect their job?
And, you know, after talking to several Filipino American Muslim nurses, there, there wasn’t anything that it would do to either to shift or do anything to get in the way of their patient care. They are, it’s still their priority just to care relentlessly for this patient and have as much empathy as possible. And to be honest, I’m still learning as I go along with playing Perlah and as scripts come in and I still ask a lot of questions of how would Perlah specifically understand this procedure or understand this text or understand what she’s doing and just keep asking questions.
00:09:30 Isabel Li
And the majority of The Pitt itself takes place on a hospital set. I’m wondering if you had a vision of what Perlah does outside of the hospital?
00:09:39 Amielynn Abellera
Well, I think Perlah is, she’s been at this hospital, PTMC, pretty much, this was her first job, she really wanted to work there in this urban setting.
And she’s been there probably for over eight years or something, like through COVID. I think she is a single mom and she has two children who are both under the age of 10. So I think she’s exhausted, but she loves nursing. She loves her kids. And she is just, she knows how to compartmentalize and work hard and like protect herself. She knows how to leave, at least she thinks she knows how to leave the job at the door in order to go home and be with her children.
00:10:24 Isabel Li
Uh-huh. And is this something, also, I’m just curious, like, is this something that you had to imagine yourself or did some of the writers sort of drop some hints during production?
00:10:35 Amielynn Abellera
I mean, a little bit of both, I think. There are only some hints in the script in the pilot and the first season where it’s dropping like, oh, she has some kids and she’s exhausted and kind of eye-rolling — Yeah, and pets — And sort of eye-rolling exhausted by what’s happening at home. And it’s, I am a mother of a five and a half year old. She’s almost six right now. So I sort of understand that exhaustion, but like deep love for my child. But it’s like, I’m happy to go to work and have them at school, but I’m also missing them. It’s just this like journey of a mother. So it was a bit of me sort of creating that backstory, but also just from the hints of the writers.
00:11:23 Isabel Li
Definitely. I think something that’s so special about The Pitt as a medical show is its accuracy in depicting the very hectic lives of healthcare professionals, especially in an emergency room setting. So Nurse Perlah is often mediating like some sort of communication and really emphasizing medical jargon or reading off data. What was it like memorizing all of these different lines and delivering it in a way that felt authentic to the way that healthcare professionals might?
00:11:50 Amielynn Abellera
Sure. Oh my gosh. It’s really challenging. I think as soon as I get the scripts, and again, thank goodness I have a sort of familiarity with having a little bit of a medical background, but you know, that was years ago. So anytime I get a script, I immediately go to the hard stuff and get that in my brain as soon as possible. And a trick that I do is, as soon as I have it memorized, I’m just saying it all day and doing things with my hands. Like I do it when I’m folding laundry. I do it when I’m washing dishes. I do it when I’m cooking. I’m doing it when I’m driving, just because as soon as it’s second nature, and that’s the thing about healthcare professionals, they’re constantly, like they’re not thinking about what they’re saying. They’re, it’s so awesomely competent in their brain, that is not difficult. That’s actually like them just having a conversation.
So I love trying to get to that point and showing how Perlah is just so competent in all of that stuff and doesn’t even have to think about it while putting in an IV.
00:13:00 Isabel Li
Absolutely. Oh my gosh. And I think like a lot of our listeners, maybe if they watch The Pitt and a lot of audience members really enjoy the lighthearted moments that you share with Princess, also another Filipina nurse played by Kristin Villanueva, especially that Nurse Perlah code-switches with her using Tagalog as a language.
Can you tell our listeners what that code-switching feels like to you and how you relate to Tagalog as a language?
00:13:25 Amielynn Abellera
Yeah, totally. Thank you for asking. I, as Amielynn Abellera, the actor, I grew up, I was born and raised in Stockton, California, and my parents spoke Tagalog and Ilocano at home all the time. And unfortunately, they didn’t teach me. So I’m actually not fluent in Tagalog at home.
I’m that Filipino American who later in life got voracious about wanting to embrace her heritage and learn it like in her adult life. And I think that translates with Perlah. I do, I think that Perlah is also, was also born and raised in the United States to two Filipinos who came from Mindanao. And even though she had the ear for it, I think that she’s learning it later in life. And I think she absolutely is so happy to have, Princess as her buddy because she can practice.
Um, because I think like the only way to learn is to constantly be talking every day. And I think Perlah does that. I think she finds any opportunity to celebrate joyfully her heritage by speaking the language with Princess. I think they both do. So it’s really close to, to my own personal experience with Tagalog because right now I am learning Tagalog on my own, taking lessons and things like that in order to teach my daughter as well, just to have it in our life more. But I think that is also what Perlah is doing.
00:14:58 Isabel Li
Yeah. And for you specifically, how and when did you start learning Tagalog?
00:15:03 Amielynn Abellera
Yeah, I think it really is. Like I said, my parents came in the ’70s to Stockton, California, as a doctor and a nurse. And, you know, that generation, at that time, their priority was assimilation, so they didn’t really teach me. And our Filipino-ness was a little bit second place, in terms of, not in a negative way, but it just was, it took a little bit of second priority as opposed to assimilating to our environment in Stockton, California. And so, however, whatever seeds were planted in there to not really pursue Tagalog or pursue, to learn and be curious about my Filipino heritage, that was sort of the majority of my childhood and into my college years. And it wasn’t until, I think, college and beyond when I started to Honestly, I think it was when I was exposed to Filipino cultural night in university, at Santa Clara University, where, all of a sudden, I was with all these other Filipino-Americans who had such a voracious sort of celebration and wanting to learn like the dances, the language, the style, the textiles, the clothing, the music, and they would study it and we would, they would just be so passionate about it.
And that really was an experience for me of, oh my gosh, I didn’t, it wasn’t like I was neglecting it on purpose. It’s just, that wasn’t in my life. So when that was happening for me, I slowly, slowly really wanted to start learning the language and started taking lessons probably in my twenties. And then, you know, but again, it’s a lifelong process to learn another language. It’s challenging. Um, and I wish, I wish I was, I wish I was at the level of Perlah where she has a buddy all the time to practice, practice, practice. But I don’t have that in my home or in my workplace right now, except with Princess at the hospital.
00:17:28 Isabel Li
Gotcha, gotcha. And currently, at the time of this interview, season two of The Pitt is in progress, and you had some really emotionally nuanced moments in the 12 o’clock episode. I’m not going to spoil it too much, but when Perlah reacts to losing a long-term patient, I’m wondering for you, as an actress, can you tell us about how you’re able to switch from some, you know, more lighthearted scenes to moments that really emphasize the darker, heavier aspects of being in medicine, like death and disease.
How do you portray and balance that?
00:18:02 Amielynn Abellera
Sure. Yeah. Thank you for asking. I think nurses are amazing in that way where I don’t know if it’s a blessing or a curse to be able to compartmentalize such extremes of feeling and experiences of loss of patients on the hour, every hour, and being able to move on to sort of uplift and help other patients on the hour, every hour. But I think Perlah, as such an experienced, competent nurse, has learned how to switch it on, switch it off, but I do feel that something that episode 206 was trying to shine a light on is what of that armor has cracks or what of that armor isn’t as strong for certain patients or she or what of that armor is, uh, what if that punch… I’m not able to recover as easily as I usually am? So, um, and I think that must happen all the time with healthcare professionals of what they have to do. I think they have to experience losing loved ones and patients and friends who are patients all the time. And how is it that they get back up to be there for the next one?
So I was– it was ultimately challenging, but I’m so glad that that episode showed that dynamic.
00:19:34 Isabel Li
Speaking of a hospital setting, I imagine it’s quite a unique set to be one, and The Pitt definitely emphasizes the realism of being in a hospital. Like, we see lots of different types of medical equipment, hand sanitizer, very relevant, pressing things that make us feel like we’re almost, like, engaging with the show in a sense. How do you describe that set?
00:19:56 Amielynn Abellera
To me, I really feel like it’s a real hospital. Everything pretty much works almost like the real thing, but it doesn’t, right? So like the water fountain looks, smells, feels like a real water fountain and it is until it just doesn’t shoot out water, right? Like everything is so amazing.
And I think that’s what Nina Ruscio, our set designer wanted to build and working with all the executives was they wanted to build this entire whole hospital to really immerse us in the reality of it. And there, a lot of times there are real needles that we have to close up on, but then when we do something actually, we switch it out for a dull needle. So it is, it’s really very, this balance and like a real scalpel that needs to look so sharp, but then as soon as it’s, actually near the skin, it is a dull scalpel, and then that’s also a prosthetic. So sometimes I can’t tell what’s real and not real. I just kind of…I just have to jump in and kind of engage with it. And then if it’s the real thing, not be freaked out. So yeah, but it’s, it’s, it’s a part of the…It’s so, it’s so incredibly fun.
I’m so fascinated by this hospital that I basically go to work to like a real nurse at 5:00 in the morning every day for a 12-hour shift. And I put on the scrubs, and then I take off the scrubs. So I kind of feel like so much like a real nurse, but also not.
00:21:42 Isabel Li
How do you think The Pitt has influenced you as an actress? After being on this show, have your goals as an actress changed? What do you see yourself doing in the future?
00:21:52 Amielynn Abellera
Yeah, So, I mean, I am really in a dream right now. It feels…like I probably had this dream of, you know, really being invited on a show from its initial season, initial episode, and being a part of a team from the very beginning, originating a role that is representing so many different cultural dimensions, like across the board. And also the show being so successful and having an impact globally, not only for healthcare workers, but, you know, the diversity that is the reality of the world.
So it’s hard to think ahead. I kind of just want this to last as long as possible for Nurse Perlah and for Amielynn. And, you know, I’ve learned to be in my acting career just putting one foot in front of the other and trusting that where it’s going will lead to the next piece in my universe. And I– the moment I try to plan something or want something to happen, it will not happen. I think I just have to trust the journey and how the universe will put what’s meant to be in front of me.
00:23:17 Isabel Li
And as an actress, what are you the most passionate about doing in any role that you play?
00:23:23 Amielynn Abellera
Well, I love the human experience. I love what that did to me as a young artist and as a young kid and what that ignited in me watching like an actor go through it and it’d be so real and me be so moved. And I love being that vehicle for other audience members. And as the actor, I can feel if I’m hitting a stride with it. And it’s a really exhilarating process. And it just reignites why I love being an actor.
00:24:06 Isabel Li
For all the listeners who have watched The Pitt, or for those of our listeners who have yet to watch The Pitt, and they definitely will after hearing this episode — what do you want the listeners or the audience members to take away from watching The Pitt, from seeing you as Nurse Perlah in it?
00:24:23 Amielynn Abellera
Yeah, well, first off, I hope you go home and turn on your HBO Max and watch The Pitt to all of you who haven’t seen it yet. And I hope you enjoy it. And I just hope that you watch it and are entertained, but also you walk away with learning something about humanity and our healthcare workers and also laughing and crying and being fascinated as much as we are behind the scenes. We’re really having such an excellent time creating this show. And we’re so thrilled that audience members love it as much as we love making it.
So I hope you have that same exhilaration and elation as we all do here.
00:25:10 Isabel Li
I’ll put a link to your social media on kpfa.org so our listeners can follow you there. And thank you so much, Amielynn, for joining me on Apex Express today.
00:25:20 Amielynn Abellera
Well, thank you for having me. I’m excited to talk to you and to share my story. And thank you for listening.
00:25:27 Isabel Li
That was actress Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perlah, one of the Filipina nurses on The Pitt. And we’re about to hear from one more actress from the show. But before that, here’s a music break with 7000 Miles by Ruby Ibarra.
00:25:59 [MUSIC: 7000 Miles by Ruby Ibarra]
00:30:07 Isabel Li
And that was the song 7,000 Miles by Ruby Avara here on KPFA.
00:30:11 Isabel Li
Thanks for tuning in to Apex Express tonight, where our next guest is the actress Kristin Villanueva, who plays Nurse Princess De La Cruz, another Filipina nurse on the HBO Max medical show, The Pitt. Hi Kristin, welcome to APEX Express.
00:30:29 Kristin Villanueva
Hi Isabel, thanks for having me.
00:30:32 Isabel Li
Absolutely. My first question for you is, how do you identify and what’s your story?
00:30:37 Kristin Villanueva
I am Filipino American. I was born and raised in Manila, Philippines, and I moved to the Washington DC area when I was 15.
00:30:47 Isabel Li
How did you get into becoming an actress?
00:30:50 Kristin Villanueva
Kind of by accident. When I moved to the States and I was at my new high school. I joined the drama program just because we didn’t have that in my school in the Philippines and that was something I’ve always been interested in. So yeah, I auditioned and I didn’t know that the drama teacher was a very serious one. Like, you either join the drama club or you play softball, you can’t have both. So yeah, that’s how I got introduced.
00:31:27 Isabel Li
And at a young age, what kinds of films or movies really inspired you to pursue drama?
00:31:33 Kristin Villanueva
I don’t think it inspired me to pursue drama, but my choice of movies, my favorite movies when I was younger is, I would say, is a little bit peculiar for an eight-year-old, for a 10-year-old. But I remember watching Kramer vs. Kramer with Dustin Hoffman and Meryl Streep and it having such an effect in my little eight-year-old self. I was so moved by it. And also Legends of the Fall with Anthony Hopkins, Aidan Quinn and Brad Pitt.
And like, what does a 10-year-old Filipino girl have anything in common with these turn of the century, 19th century, you know, Montana cowboys? You know, it’s just so random, but for some reason I just fell in love with it. Maybe I just fell in love with Brad Pitt, but, yeah, those heavy dramas had an impact in me, even though I didn’t know exactly what it was.
00:32:35 Isabel Li
So you play Nurse Princess on the HBO Max medical show The Pitt, and which, at the time of this interview, we’re, you know, getting towards the finale of season two very, very quickly. I’ve really been enjoying season two. And first of all, congratulations on winning Outstanding Performance by an ensemble in a drama series. That’s so incredible.
00:32:54 Kristin Villanueva
Thank you so much. Yeah, it’s been a wild ride.
00:32:57 Isabel Li
Yeah. Can I just say, Princess is such an energetic and confident character, and it’s really fun watching you play a healthcare professional in such a hectic setting of an emergency room. What do you do to get in character of Princess?
00:33:11 Kristin Villanueva
Ooh, that’s a great question. She has such a vibrant energy when she’s at the ED, and I don’t need a lot to prep myself to get to that level because I’m just excited to be at the Warner Brothers lot, and being on set and being with very kind people. So it doesn’t take a lot to get in that mindset. Maybe if it’s a 5.30am call, maybe I need a little bit more coffee to get there. But in terms of my emotion and excitement and energy, I don’t need to do that much because, yeah, it kind of, it’s parallel in my real life and in Princess’s life of just doing what they both want to do. But in terms of, I would say, the difference is, I wish I had Princess’s confidence in my life more. You know, she’s very confident in everything that she does. You know, she knows she’s good, and she isn’t shy to show it. Because I think when she shows it, it’s not to show. It’s just to do, you know? Um, so I wish I have more and more of that in my life.
00:34:35 Isabel Li
For you, what’s the most challenging part of playing Princess?
00:34:39 Kristin Villanueva
I would say, well, first, the lines, the medical jargon and the technicality of things. So, thankfully, we have amazing med techs that are always right next to us, correcting us, you know, making us feel more confident, guiding us, answering all our questions. So, yeah, making sure that I look like I know what I’m doing. So that would be, I would say, the hardest part.
00:35:08 Isabel Li
Yeah, and on that note, like in many of her moments, Princess is so often mediating communication for medical information in so many different ways. How do you prepare for a role like that where you have to, I mean, you mentioned some things about needing to like look and act the part and you have some people helping you, but what are some other things that you do to really have you, you know, help practice sounding like a healthcare professional?
00:35:35 Kristin Villanueva
First, I Google everything. And then I make sure I’m able to explain it in my own words, so whatever the procedure is. Don’t ask me anything now, because once I’m done filming, it leaves my brain. So yes, I research everything. And then when it comes to memorization, if it’s, the nurses have a lot of numbers. We may not have a lot of the long words, Latin words, medicine words that the doctors do, but we have to say a lot of different numbers, you know, BP 160 over 20 and all of that. So what I do is I would record the other people’s lines, make leave a space for my lines and just play it all day, every day. When I’m walking the dog, when I’m doing dishes, when I’m folding laundry. So I can get it in my body while I’m doing different things. Because I notice that if I’m just sitting down and memorizing my lines, and then I get to set the next day, and all of a sudden, you know, I’m given all these choreography and I’m moving, or they change the choreography in the middle, that gets really tricky. So doing my lines while moving helps a lot. And then of course, the things that I can Google as much as I can, but then I take advantage of having, like I said, the med techs on set. Then I ask them about their emotional experiences behind procedures. So things I start with, okay, is this procedure an everyday thing? How often do you see it? How often do you deal with it? And then from there, I ask if it’s something interesting that it’s like they’ve only heard of but never actually seen in practice. What would you do? They say, if you’re not busy, you run to that room and watch it, that kind of thing. And if it’s an emotional scene, then I ask them, how do you deal with these things? Then I get to hear their experiences and how they cope with it after the shift.
00:37:53 Isabel Li
Did you know anything about medicine or the emergency room before this role?
00:37:59 Kristin Villanueva
No, I think I’m one of those very rare Filipinos that don’t really have a lot of healthcare professionals in their families. I do have a cousin who’s a radiologist and my husband’s side of family. There are a lot of nurses and that’s my mother-in-law included, but no, I have zero.
00:38:20 Isabel Li
Oh, wow. So I watched some of your other interviews and I found it really interesting that you had talked about like telling your agent not to submit you to roles on nurses, on projects, unless it was specifically featured.
Can you tell us more about that and how you navigate like the Filipino representation in medical shows, especially in The Pitt as an actress yourself?
00:38:41 Kristin Villanueva
Sure. I was getting a lot of, I wouldn’t say a lot, but I would often get auditions for nurses in medical shows or non-medical shows. And I’ve played them before and I’ve been very grateful for those experiences. One of them was a movie opposite Susan Sarandon.
So Susan Sarandon was also playing a nurse. So all of my scenes was with her. So those are very cool experiences. But because I’ve played them a number of times, then I told my agents at one point, hey, unless, like you said, the nurse part is more featured or has more lines other than yes, doctor, then sure, I would audition because I’ve done it.
And I also didn’t want to perpetuate that sad practice of, you know, okay, let’s have one Filipino or one Asian nurse and check that box off.
Because it does feel that way. And it’s just not the real world. So when The Pitt came and I saw the breakdown, it’s a heftier breakdown for the part of Nurse Princess. I mean, and just looking at her name, Princess de la Cruz, I was like, somebody did the research. I’m like, all right, okay, I’ll put myself on tape for this.
00:39:59 Isabel Li
Yeah, and I love how Princess as a character is written to be such a crucial part of the team. Very competent, very quick on her feet. Are there any ways where you, yourself, got to influence how Princess was portrayed, maybe beyond the scripts or, you know, in any ways that you could add to that character?
00:40:19 Kristin Villanueva
I think so? I’m not sure, but I have noticed that in season two, on the scripts, Princess’s, looks, eye rolls, stares were now written. Whereas before, I was just doing it. So yes, I think so. Because I didn’t have a lot of lines. I still don’t have a lot of lines, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have an opinion. And yeah, I was just being truthful in all those moments. So if I feel like something’s off or, you know, I don’t think Princess has a good poker face. So that made its way into the script recently.
00:41:05 Isabel Li
Oh, I see. Well, the show primarily takes place in a hospital setting. But for you, when you’re playing Princess, do you imagine what she does, like, outside of the hospital? Like, who is she outside of work?
00:41:16 Kristin Villanueva
I think when there is an after party or somebody’s birthday, someone’s baptism, or, I think she’s the same. I think she’s a work hard, party harder kind of girl. But I can also see her turning everything off and having a lot of deep, quiet solo time that she doesn’t talk about much often.
00:41:44 Isabel Li
Yeah, something so cool about Princess is the fact that she can apparently speak six languages. But I wanted to talk about the fact that you, as Princess, code-switched to Tagalog in many scenes, especially with Amielynn Abellera, who plays Nurse Perlah. For you, can you tell our listeners how it feels for you switching from English to Tagalog?
00:42:05 Kristin Villanueva
Well, first off, the first word that comes to mind is it’s fun. You know, you get to use that skill or use that — used to be a very familiar part of myself again. But I also feel extremely vulnerable because I don’t get to do that often. I don’t think I’ve, maybe I’ve acted once in Tagalog, but I can’t remember any other significant roles where I was able to do that. So to do that on The Pitt is, yeah, it’s pretty vulnerable just in terms of sharing that part of myself that I haven’t shared really acting-wise.
But it’s also fun. Because it comes naturally. And I get to there’s so many nuances that I would think only Filipinos would get, but it’s also so gratifying to hear from from other folks who are not Filipinos that get it. You know, even though they don’t understand, um, the Filipino jokes, but they have their own — they have their own version in their own culture. So it’s — it’s really fun to hear that.
00:43:18 Isabel Li
Just out of curiosity for you, how do you relate to Tagalog as a language? Do you speak it often?
00:43:24 Kristin Villanueva
I don’t speak it often, unfortunately. I do still speak it with my family, and we Zoom once, twice a week. But other than that, no, I don’t speak it often.
And it’s kind of sad, because I feel like some words are leaving my memory. But yeah.
00:43:45 Isabel Li
Yeah, wow. So when they’re written in the script, do you translate, or are they already words in Tagalog that you already know?
00:43:54 Kristin Villanueva
When they’re written in the script, they’re written in English. And season one, I used to translate it for myself. And then season two, we have a coach who gave us a lot more options. But what’s wonderful about working with the writers is they’re not precious with their own phrases.
They defer to us to translate it as close to the gist of, let’s say it’s a joke, but if I were to translate it in Tagalog, word per word, it’s not going to land the same way as it would in American, in English. Do you know what I mean? So they much rather have us say it in whatever’s parallel in Tagalog. So yeah. And I applaud the writers for doing that, ’cause that’s one of my pet peeves sometimes when I’m, you know, watching other shows, translation of, it’s not quite that, you know, or it’s too literal. If it’s too literal, then it’s, that’s not how we talk.
00:44:59 Isabel Li
Right. And putting that in the context of Princess as a character, who is a polyglot, there are some moments where she speaks French and does sign language.
00:45:08 Isabel Li
How did you navigate these multilingual exchanges communicating in different languages, essentially. Oh, I look forward to it. I look forward to them so badly. It’s one of the things I got really excited about auditioning for the part, ’cause it was written in her breakdown that she speaks six languages. Um, I personally don’t, but I am so enamored by polyglots. Like if I were to meet someone who can speak three languages plus, I’m just, I follow them like a puppy. I don’t know, I just find it so sexy and intriguing. And it’s like something that I aspire to be, but just haven’t had the time to do it. So yes, I look forward to them.
00:45:52 Isabel Li
Yeah, and how do you practice? Like, did you have to practice some French and some ASL?
00:45:57 Kristin Villanueva
Oh, um, for the French, since there’s only one line, we didn’t hire a coach, but we did hire, um, coaches for ASL. Oh, yeah, I just practiced the hell out of them. Um, but there’s also that nuance of, um, how fluent or how good is your pronunciation for someone who doesn’t speak it all the time, you know? You got to, like, factor that in as well. But, yes, I just practice it all the time.
00:46:24 Isabel Li
Gotcha. And speaking of that, I love how Princess and Perlah add some lighthearted humor and back and forths and gossip throughout the series. How do you switch from humorous moments to more serious ones?
00:46:36 Kristin Villanueva
I mean, you don’t really think about it in life, right? Like one minute you’re crying and then something happens and then you find it hilarious. You just go with the flow on set. You don’t really ever plan, okay, this beat is a funny beat, and this one is a dramatic beat. You don’t. As long as you keep it honest, those colors would come out naturally.
00:47:02 Isabel Li
The Pitt is very current. Like there are so many current events and everyday sort of issues mirrored in the series. What is your experience working with a set and a story that feels like it is very much set in the everyday?
00:47:21 Kristin Villanueva
It hasn’t been an issue. It’s never– if anything, sometimes it’s tougher because you can’t escape the real world, right? It’s not like when I get to do a Shakespeare comedy, there’s a reprieve from, you know, the sad current events that are happening. So yeah, that’s– I would say that’s the only downside, but there’s a lot more upside to that, which is you get to present and work through real life situations. You know, that I’m happy that a TV show like The Pitt, you know, something that’s made for entertainment can actually dive into these really serious topics. And what I love about The Pitt is that I don’t think it’s preachy. I don’t think it tackles headlines of the day in a way that it makes you want to turn the TV off. If anything, it shows how, it shows the repercussions on the everyday people. And hopefully audiences that don’t have anything to do, like I’ll give you an example, like for nurses strikes, right? If you see that on the headline and you don’t work, you’re not a healthcare worker, you’ll probably just, you know, skip that video or not read that article because you think it doesn’t affect you.
But hopefully by watching The Pitt, you’ll see, oh no, it will affect me if God forbid I have to go to the hospital, if my loved one has to go to the hospital and you don’t get seen for 10 hours, or there were mistakes in, the medicine, or it’s just not top care that you think you deserve. It’s not because the nurses or the doctors or the staff are bad. They’re understaffed, period. Right? They haven’t had a day off in 12 days. So no, it’s a privilege to be able to do a show, have a job that actually reflects what’s happening in real life.
00:49:40 Isabel Li
Yeah, thank you for sharing about that. And finally, I want to touch upon your work in general. As an actress, would you say there’s something that you’re most passionate about doing?
00:49:50 Kristin Villanueva
Ooh. Are we talking about material or medium? Because I would say everything. I do miss doing plays. I haven’t done a play since, my gosh, I think pre-COVID. So it’s been a while. So I really love doing plays. I have more experience in theater than TV and film combined. A really good material is so inspiring to do, whether it be a classic like Chekhov or any new contemporary plays. You know, there’s so many playwrights, those plays I want to do so badly. There’s something electric about working on a brand new play when the playwright is in the room. But also, it’s also really amazing to work on juicy Shakespearean tragedies. You know, when I get to play Shakespeare ingenues, in those three hours, you’ve lived a lifetime. You know, usually in a Shakespearean comedy, you meet the ingenue before they fall in love. And then they fall in love, and then they get their hearts broken. And then by the end, they’re kind of this new person who’s a little bit more learned, but not the same 16-year-old that you met three hours ago. So getting to do those parts are a complete joy.
00:51:29 Isabel Li
I’m wondering, do you have a dream role that you’d like to play in the future? Like either in theater or in film? Who would it be and who would you like to work with?
00:51:37 Kristin Villanueva
I love this question. My imagination just starts going everywhere. Yes. My dream role for the theater would be Martha from Edward Albee’s Who’s Afraid of Virginia Woolf? I got to do that play a few years ago, but as Honey, as one of the other characters. But I would love to play Martha someday. Another theater role would be Arkadina from The Seagull or Nina, but I think I’ve aged out of Nina. And in terms for like TV, gosh, I’m obsessed with Narcos, obsessed. And I’ve always, I’ve written a part from, if Narcos was ever to do a season about the Philippines, I have a role that I wrote for myself. Cause I don’t, you know, you look at my face, like, my face is too round and I’m too short and I smile too much for a show like Narcos or The Wire, which are, like, one of my top, top favorite TV shows.
And I don’t have a part for them ’cause I don’t look the part, but I found a way to write myself in Narcos season, I don’t know, season five Philippines.
00:53:09 Isabel Li
One last question for you. These are such incredible answers. Thank you so much for sharing. One last question for you. Out of your entire acting career right now, what has been the most rewarding moment for you?
00:53:22 Kristin Villanueva
I mean, besides The Pitt, mainly because of the reach and mainly because a lot of Filipino nurses have become so happy just to be seen and represented. And that means so, so much, another role that I am most proud of is this play — I wouldn’t even say play — it’s more of a performance art piece called The Courtroom. The theater company called Waterwell produced it in New York. And The Courtroom is about a Filipino immigrant to the US who accidentally voted when she was still only on a green card. So she wasn’t supposed to vote, but she did not do it maliciously. So the play is about her filing appeal after appeal to stay in the U.S. and not be deported. So I was pretty proud of that. We used, the lines were straight out of the court transcripts. And yeah, I wish we could do it again, especially with, you know, the current climate.
00:54:38 Isabel Li
Yeah, definitely. Well, thank you so much, Kristin, for sharing her story and all of your various experiences. Do you have anything else you’d like to share with our listeners?
00:54:47 Kristin Villanueva
Oh, just thank you so much for watching The Pitt and, you know, for all the nice words about the show. And I hope you keep watching.
00:55:00 Isabel Li
And that was Kristin Villanueva, who plays Nurse Princess De La Cruz on The Pitt, which just released its season 2 finale last week at this time.
Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our two guests tonight, Kristin and Amielynn. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.
00:55:31 Isabel Li
Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show is produced and edited by me, Isabel Li. Have a great evening and thanks so much for listening.
The post APEX Express – 4.23.26 – Nurses of The Pitt appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 4.16.26 – Rethinking Immigration Detention
16 huhti· KPFA - APEX Express
APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
On this episode, host Miata Tan speaks with three guests from Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization working to end immigration detention in the United States. They discuss the current state of the system, the conditions facing immigrant and asylum-seeking families, and how Tsuru’s Japanese American roots shape their approach to this work.
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Transcript
[00:00:00]
Miata Tan: Hello and welcome. I’m your host Miata Tan, and you are tuning into APEX Express, a weekly radio show that uplifts the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders.
The United States runs the largest immigration detention system in the world. Earlier this year, the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, also known as ICE, [00:01:00] held a record.
73,000 people in immigration detention the highest number in the agency’s 23 year history. Since January 20, 25, over 6,200 kids have passed through ICE detention. Tonight we hear from a community who are shining a light on this issue and working to end the ongoing detention of immigrant and asylum seeking families.
Rob Buscher: The Japanese American story and Asian American story are just one chapter in this much larger chronicle of state violence, and we. See our role as, as also helping to connect the dots and be the connective tissue.
Miata Tan: That was the voice of Rob Buscher, the Director of Operations at Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization with a mission to educate, advocate, and protest to close all US detention site. And bring an end to inhumane immigration policies. Tsuru for Solidarity is led by [00:02:00] the survivors and descendants of Japanese Americans who are incarcerated in concentration camps by the US government in World War ii.
Our three guests tonight are shaping the future of this work at Tsuru for Solidarity.
They share with us how the legacy of Japanese American wartime incarceration is deeply intertwined with the present day realities that many immigrant communities are facing. First up is Mike Ishii, the Executive Director of Tsuru for Solidarity.
Here’s Mike taking us back to the inception of this organization and national movement.
Mike Ishii: In 2016 the Obama administration decided to really lean into. A deterrence policy of immigration.
When they had first entered office, we thought they may actually provide some relief for immigrants. But in fact, what they ended up doing was weaponizing the immigration policy at the southern border against immigrants. And they built [00:03:00] Karnes and Dilley, which were the first family detention centers.
Carl Takei, one of the founding members of Tsuru for Solidarity. In fact, I think he was just honored by, the Asian Bar Association for his longtime advocacy work in community spaces. Well, in 2016 when the Obama administration really opened Karnes and Dilley, Carl was working at the A CLU in immigration and the Obama administration had the audacity to want to invite advocates from all over the country to show off their new detention centers.
And so when Carl entered into those sites, what he encountered was a room that was. Full of giant cabinets floor to ceiling. And when they opened the doors, what he saw inside were thousands of shoes for infants. And it took his breath away and he realized, oh my God, these are concentration camps for children.
And you know, this really. Resonated with his [00:04:00] own family’s history of mass incarceration during World War ii. So what he did was he immediately called Dr. Satsuki Ina, Dr. Ina is very famous. For a number of things. One is that she is really the preeminent community trauma specialist in the Japanese American community.
She was born inside of the Tula Lake Segregation Center, a concentration camp. She would grow up to become a very, well-known psychotherapist in the Japanese American community. Dr. Ina. Is really like Carl’s auntie, and so he said, this is happening at the southern border.
I want you to come have a look. She went inside and she was actually able to meet with families and their children, and she of course can do a psychological assessment
She began to advocate. Against these camps because what she realized was that the conditions, the experiences, the trauma that these children were experiencing was very similar to what our own survivors had experienced as children during World War ii in the US concentration caps.
[00:05:00] So there’s one of the genesis prongs of Tsuru for solidarity. If you fast forward. To 2018, you have the zero tolerance policy under Trump, administration, 1.0. And if you remember, at that time, as an extension. of deterrence, they were separating children from their families at the southern border.
These are families who were seeking refugee status, who were seeking asylum, who were presenting for asylum. That’s a constitutional and human right, protected by the Geneva Conventions. They would take those families, they would literally strip the children away from their parents. They deported the parents.
Purposefully they did not record where they were sending them often deported not to countries of origin. So in many cases, we still have not reunited those families. We don’t know where the parents are and the children are still here, nine, 10 years later,
With unaccompanied status because they purposefully destroyed the connections and the ability to [00:06:00] trace and reunite those families. That’s Trump 1.0. And when they were doing that they were also expanding these large congregate concentration caps for children. They were calling them influx centers and saying, oh, they’ll only be processed through these, and then we’ll release children into.
Custody of family members, et cetera. That was not true. They were actually prisons for children and they were literal concentration camps.
It’s violating the due process laws of the United States. there’s no accountability. There’s no oversight. And so Tsuru for Solidarity emerged in 2018 as an organization of Japanese Americans, really led by survivors who were children in camps and their descendants.
My own mother was incarcerated in a concentration camp in Idaho with her family. During World War ii, she was 10 years old at that time. She had two younger sisters and her youngest sister was born inside of the Minidoka concentration camp and experienced birth trauma because they had no doctors.
She was, um, birthed by a veterinarian [00:07:00] and ex experienced, um, lack of oxygen And so she lived a life of tremendous suffering and, and disability. Um, that was often unrecognized as trauma from a concentration camp. She attempted to commit suicide multiple times. Eventually would die an early death from mental health.
Complications. That’s the legacy of the camps of World War ii, and understanding that multi-generational impact is partly why suited for solidarity emerged in 2018 when we recognized that they were repeating our history, and that’s why we’re here today.
Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. Mike described how Tsuru’s work grew in response to the ongoing detention of immigrant children in the United States. As he mentioned, many Japanese Americans have deep roots in this country.
Now let’s hear from Rob Buscher Tsuru’s, Director of [00:08:00] Operations. He’s a mixed race yonsei or fourth generation Japanese American. You may hear him use terms like yonsei to describe different generations. Now, here’s Rob Unpacking the legacy of Japanese American incarceration, including the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, which issued a formal apology and reparations and what that history means for other communities today.
Rob Buscher: In 2018 and 2019, our community was not the one that was at risk of being detained. We were not the ones who were being targeted by the state violence of immigrant detention and enforcement. and yet we had this ability to kind of think about and talk about. Multi-generational impacts of the trauma from World War ii.
Um, it’s not just the survivors of camp and the children of camp. It’s the children and grandchildren of this experience who continue to suffer multi-generational effects of trauma, whether it be higher, uh, incidents of anxiety and stress leading to a [00:09:00] variety of health issues, uh, substance abuse issues
the forced assimilation that resulted in the aftermath of our resettlement into the broader American society has also resulted in a great deal of assimilation trauma. So for a number of sansei and yonsei and gosei now trying to understand, uh, what is our history and heritage? How can we relate to something that was forcibly removed from us and really navigating this idea that at sometimes feels like a racial imposter syndrome, uh, when we don’t know our own histories because it was forcibly taken from us.
In a variety of ways, uh, I think that the Japanese American community’s role, and specifically through Tsuru, has been rooted in this idea of solidarity and collective liberation because we understand that the effects. Our trauma, we’re part of this much longer continuum of anti-black racism, of anti indigenous genocide, of white supremacy in the United States.
The [00:10:00] Japanese American story and Asian American story are just one chapter in this much larger chronicle of state violence, and we. See our role as, as also helping to connect the dots and be the connective tissue. In some cases, when communities who have experienced these kinds of traumas across many decades aren’t always in communication with each other, aren’t always in conversation, but the complexity and nuance of the American story actually lends itself to a number of parallels to have conversations around things like.
Black reparations. And you know, this is another part of the work that Tsuru does in solidarity with black reparations and African American communities, descendants of chattel slavery and others who have suffered Jim Crow and other forms of state violence against black and brown communities. understanding that the, the redress story and the story of Japanese Americans receiving our own reparations.
Uh, is part of this longer narrative around, uh, what does it mean to have reparative [00:11:00] justice? And, um, as some of the few people who have received reparations from the United States government, uh, many of us also see it as our obligation and duty to stand in solidarity with black reparations.
Mike Ishii: if I could just add on to that, you know.
There’s an intersectional history in the United States of forced removals, you know, on the enslavement blocks enforcing people on forced death marches from their home lands to reservations. In the prison system of the us The largest prison system in the world. It’s forced removal, it’s separation of families, it’s mass incarceration it’s surveillance and it’s murder. And the Japanese American chapter of that history is actually a very similar story that just as, as Rob said, just keeps being repeated over and over again, but it’s created in new iterations.
So, just to give you a small example related to the Japanese American story. Dylan Meyer, who ran the war relocation authority, he was responsible [00:12:00] for the 10 largest, the most well known of the Japanese American concentration camps. There were actually over 75, sites of detention for Japanese Americans during World War ii.
Most people don’t realize that. what we were put into that system during World War II was based on the reservation model, um, of how they remove indigenous people from their homelands and then force them onto reservation lands.
That model was exported. By the Nazis to build their concentration camps. So like people think, oh, Nazi Germany invented that. No, it was, that model was invented in the United States. It was then exported to Nazi Germany. It was then tailored further on Japanese American communities. And then with the forced assimilation, we were, our people were not allowed to go back to their homes initially.
Dylan Meyer wrote about it in his biography. He considered the force assimilation one of his greatest accomplishments. So what he was doing was he was dispersing us and destroying us in one generation of force removal. We lost our homes, we lost our farms. We lost the nijo Mai, the Japan towns.
We [00:13:00] lost our language. We lost our culture, and perhaps most importantly. We lost each other because they pitted our community against each other with a series of very divisive questionnaires that really turned people on each other, More than 84 years since the opening of the camp.
We’re still trying to repair the fractures of that. They’re not healed yet. And so that’s what Rob, when Rob refers to multi-generational trauma, we’re a fractured community. Still trying to repair the implosion that was. Really dropped on us by the United States government, this is what they do repeatedly to community after community.
So with the force assimilation after World War ii, they saw how that worked. Then they, they took that back and they weaponized it against, um, indigenous communities and saying, we’re gonna move people off the reservations. We’re gonna resettle them in cities Further isolating people away from their home communities, taking away their languages, taking them and breaking their connections to family and community.
Right? Setting people up for failure in a city away from their [00:14:00] people. in poverty.,
And what we’re witnessing right now is a culmination of hundreds of years in this of white supremacy, weaponized against our communities. More openly, more brazenly than ever before, with the full power of the United States government behind it.
Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Mike described mass surveillance programs, the World War II, incarceration of Japanese Americans and post-war pressures to assimilate left lasting impacts on this community. In the present, Tsuru for Solidarity connects the Japanese American history to ongoing immigration detention in the United States.
Here’s Mike describing some of Tsuru’s past and ongoing campaigns focused on closing specific detention sites, what they call site fights.
Mike Ishii: Dilley and Karnes, which are the original two sites and the largest sites in Texas, which are now in the news again, [00:15:00] because they’re being reused again by the Trump administration very openly. But under Biden, we had forced ’em to close those basically functionally for families.
They were using them in other ways. Which is not good. but we had forced them to stop detaining families officially. we had stopped the expansion of these large congregate sites for unaccompanied migrant children.
Uh, we stopped them from opening a large one in Greensboro, North Carolina. They wanted to open what they called the Piedmont Academy. Site of the former National Jewish School that school closed. And so they had leased the property and they were gonna. Open their largest detention site for unaccompanied migrant children and call it an academy.
we slowed it down and forced them to reconsider it long enough to where it became an unworkable, policy for them. And they abandoned it. We stopped them from expanding Fort Bliss. In El Paso, which is a military base that was also used as a Japanese American incarceration site [00:16:00] during World War ii.
it’s currently being used again. It’s being called Camp East Montana, by the Trump 2.0 administration. And when they were incarcerating children there during the first Trump administration, children were literally forgotten. Their cases were forgotten, and there were children languIshiing in there for like. Up to a year at a time, and nobody knew they were there because no one cared.
There were allegations of sexual abuse, uh, rotten food, children who never were allowed outside. Children covered in lice, children taking care of younger children because nobody took care of them, lack of medical care. And so if that’s shocking for what was happening under the first Trump administration, it’s.
Also happening now. And, and there is even less oversight or accountability now than there was, during the first Trump administration because as broken as that system was, then it had more accountability because there were [00:17:00] advocates and legal representatives for children, which is almost non-existent now.
They’ve done away with the funding for that. We have three year olds representing themselves in immigration courts now because they did away with the congressional funding to support that. That’s sort of the, the constellation of. Of the work that we emerged into when we came into formation, um, under the first Trump administration.
And, it, it has just continued to evolve. We’ve been involved in, I think it’s eight site fights now. And as difficult as this moment is right now, I always wanna tell people, and frame it this way, when you fight back, you win. We closed the Berks Family Detention Center permanently. We stopped the Piedmont Academy from opening in Greensboro.
Tsuru’s first major action was to go to Fort Sill in Oklahoma in 2019. Um, we led two protests there. The first one went [00:18:00] sort of viral on democracy now in cause they accompanied us. They embedded themselves with us. This is the first thing we ever did in a large scale and had no idea what we were doing at that point.
We just were just angry and we, and full of, passion and said we have to go there and stop them from opening. A new concentration camp for 1600 children. And so we did that. Um, as a result, United we dream joined us along with AIM Indian Territory, with Black Lives Matter, Oklahoma City.
Um, with Dream Action now Oklahoma with Veterans for Peace and with many of the local tribes. We came back a month later and staged a massive, massive demonstration shut down the highway into the fort. We brought 25 Buddhist priests and nuns with us. Who chanted the heart suture at the gate, um, while DACA young people took the highway and shut it down.
After that action, the governor and the two senators from Oklahoma made an announcement the next day and they said, we’ve decided not to open this site here because we [00:19:00] said if you move ahead with. This is just the beginning. You think this is bad. We are gonna bring thousands of people here and we will make sure this site never opens.
we proved through solidarity and community organizing in that moment that when you organize in solidarity against state violence, you win.
You know, it’s a bad moment. Right now they’re proposing what, 23, 25 new warehouse detention sites, but actually. At least three or four of them have been curtailed already because community came together and said, not in my neighborhood, not in my town, not in my city. We will oppose you. And we’re getting very smart about how we work together.
I think Chicago and Minneapolis, LA have really lifted up the idea that change and transformation comes from the ground up. when we wait for our. Governments to change policy for the better of people and humanity. It doesn’t happen. It’s [00:20:00] when it’s when the grassroots decide. We band together. We protect ourselves, we care for ourselves.
We organize, we stand in solidarity against state violence. Then we can move things and we can stop things.
Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Mike described, Tsuru organizes creative nonviolent actions to challenge immigration detention and bring people into collective resistance.
Stay tuned to learn more about this movement and they’re opposing inhumane practices against immigrant communities.
Miata Tan: [00:21:00] [00:22:00] That was Forevermore by Yuna. You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we’re centering the work of Tsuru for Solidarity, a nationwide organization with a mission to close all US detention sites and bring an end to inhumane immigration policies.
Sophie Sarkar is the Bay Area organizer with Tsuru for Solidarity. Here’s Sophie speaking about their approach using non-cooperation as a guiding strategy.
Sophie Sarkar: Non-cooperation is the idea that. I guess there’s this larger model for [00:23:00] authoritarianism. And that an authoritarian regime is actually a lot more fragile than we think because it is upheld by many different pillars of society. So for example. The authoritarian regime cannot function unless it has a military force that is supporting it, unless it has a media that’s supporting it unless it has elected officials corporations, police forces.
And so when we think about strategy, we’re really thinking about these specific pillars. Um, instead of just like, how can we take down this, uh, authoritarian regime? We think about like, okay let’s choose a pillar and let’s unpack all the different layers within that pillar. So, for example, if we choose the pillar of corporations, you know, there are many different corporations that we know are supporting, working in concert and supporting ICE and the Department of Homeland Security, like enterprise, like [00:24:00] Hilton, target, home Depot.
And within each of those. , Well, there are the consumers, and then there are the workers, the managers, and then the CEOs. So we try to create strategies that kind of work from at a grassroots level. So starting with the outer layer of like the consumers through boycotts to workers, labor strikes and so forth.
When we’re talking about non-cooperation, we’re really talking about strategies that help us support people to, to dissent and to stop actually working with the regime. we learned a lot from Minneapolis where folks were calling up enterprise, um, and booking booking cars so that ICE couldn’t. rent them and then just canceling last minute.
Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Sophie described, Tsuru uses a framework of [00:25:00] non-cooperation to guide its organizing work. Their campaigns include a range of non-violent actions, letter writing, public demonstrations, and continued pressure efforts.
Now returning to my conversation with Rob Buscher, Tsuru’s, Director of Operations.
I wanted to know how Tsuru is organizing together, how they are thinking about this strategy nationwide.
Rob Buscher: We are all remote workers, so Mike and Becca, our Director of organizing, is based in New York City. Uh, and they frequently travel, uh, every other week traveling across the country to the campaign hubs that are mainly located in the West Coast, where we have a larger Japanese American community.
Seattle, Portland, San Francisco Bay Area. Those are kind of our big hubs, and that’s where the bulk of Tsuru’s volunteer members are located. So much of this work is campaign driven, it’s really work that is ideated together [00:26:00] as, as a committee consensus based decision making that takes place both from campaign level, but also regional leaders within each one of those hubs.
looking at child and family detention, looking at police prisons and detention as our two detention campaigns. Healing Justice as Mike was talking about, including Resiliency and arts as well as the core healing circles Practice that has been a, a part of our practice since the beginning. And also the solidarity with black reparations campaign.
So between each of those four campaigns, we have co-chairs that lead that work. Um, they form our leadership council, which is essentially the, the board of sudu. And together with our six staff, we work very closely with the leadership council to create a plan for the organization at a larger national level.
But the day-to-day operations is largely being done by our volunteer members in each one of those locations. We have busy seasons, of course. the Day of Remembrance on February 19th is a, a major focal point for a lot of [00:27:00] our historic remembrance around the anniversary of Franklin Roosevelt signing Executive order 9 0 6 6, which laid the legislative groundwork for the forced removal of our communities from the west coast and that.
Has become, not just within Tsuru, but within the Japanese American community. A launch point for revisiting this history from the lens of today and trying to understand what is the role of the survivors and descendants of the Japanese American community as we see parallels to what occurred, happening to families.
And individuals around the country in real time. A member of my own family was arrested under the Alien Enemies Act in 1942, and we’re seeing the same kind of legislation being used against Venezuelans and other folks from Latin America. you know, when we kind of think about the role that we play today.
As staff, we hold a lot of the this work from like a planning standpoint, but the actual boots on the grounds are the volunteer members of the organization.
Miata Tan: That was Rob Buscher, the Director of operations at Tsuru for [00:28:00] Solidarity.
Now let’s return to Sophie Sarkar, the Bay Area organizer for this nationwide movement. Here Sophie reflects on Tsuru’s volunteer network and the anti deportation campaigns they help to coordinate across the Bay Area.
Sophie Sarkar: So our volunteers are largely Japanese American, world War ii, prison camp survivors and descendants as well as allies. And It’s an amazing volunteer base to work with because it is so intergenerational.
So for example, we had a strategy retreat for our leaders and our youngest participant was 21 and our oldest participant was 95. And. All the ages in between as well. that’s one of the reasons I love working with this group so much because I think it’s pretty rare to be in such intergenerational spaces organizing together.
Yeah. And, uh, we have volunteers all across the Bay [00:29:00] Area. We have folks that. Our artists that have law degrees that, have an organizing background that have never organized before in their lives. Um, we really try to make ourselves accessible to anyone who’s interested in participating. So even if um, someone is just really starting to understand the realities of the systemic violence, against immigrants in this country we, we make space for that and we really try to, offer a lot of political education to folks so. Yeah, at any level they can engage.
Yeah, and we have faith leaders. We have folks who have experience with labor unions. So it is a pretty wide variety. But yeah, most of us come together with this shared historical experience of, some people themselves or their families being incarcerated during World War II
i, myself am a descendant of, [00:30:00] folks who are incarcerated at Manzanar and Tulle Lake.
My family were also so folks who were coerced into renunciation and quote self deportation unquote after the war. I feel so many different various connections to my own family’s experiences and what’s happening today. And so it just feels like a really deep yeah, just a, a deep opportunity to get to, I. Ground in my, my ancestral historical experience as, as an organizer for Tsuru.
I think for many of us by really being able to show up in solidarity with groups that are facing State violence it looks different today in some ways. But it’s kind of the same playbook as we might say of how the government treated our family members. And it’s really an opportunity for us to. really address the [00:31:00] impacts of what happened to our families on us, across generations to address our trauma, to face it to heal from it.
Miata Tan: Definitely. Could you share a little bit about what your day-to-day looks like as a organizer?
Sophie Sarkar: My role is really to work with our volunteer leaders and to support them in, , building out campaigns here in the Bay Area. So in the Bay Area we have, we are part of the ICE out of Dublin coalition and we have our own Tsuru campaign around preventing the reopening of FCI Dublin as an ice detention facility.
there is currently no ice detention facility in Northern California, so that would have a huge impact on the entire Bay Area and Northern California in general. So we spend a lot of time on that, working on that campaign. we also have part in Refugees campaign where we have supported individuals at risk of [00:32:00] deportation, um, with kind of mutual aid and wraparound care.
And we also have a Palestine working group that is Supporting the J eight community in the Bay Area to organize folks around the genocide and Palestine, and now the war in Lebanon and Iran.
And so we will be participating, for example, in a interfaith march, and pilgrimage in May as part of that we have a child and family detention campaign that’s more national. we organize monthly general meetings so that folks have a place to land with us.
And at those general meetings we, give campaign updates, but we also, really try to do something engaging and like take an action together. So, at the last couple, um, general meetings, we folded paper dolls as part of a Paper Dolls campaign to raise awareness about child and family detention and the [00:33:00] 6,000 families that are currently detained by ICE.
Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar the Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity. As you heard, children and families detained by US Immigration and Customs Enforcement are central to their campaign work. One example is the Paper Dolls to Free families Campaign that Sophie mentioned.
Tsuru for Solidarity is leading this effort alongside partners in the National Coalition to End Family and Child Detention. The campaign invites people across the country to create paper dolls with little messages of solidarity, which the coalition will deliver to members of Congress.
He is Tsuru’s Executive Director Mike Ishii, reflecting on the thinking behind this work.
Mike Ishii: We have to recognize that great violence has taken place between people and between our groups. But the only way we’re going to reconcile this and actually transform it is if we try to repair it in a [00:34:00] transformative way.
You know, part of the work that we’re doing right now, in the National Coalition to End Family and Child Detention is a campaign that we call free families. And here’s what it does, it recognizes that we are trying to free the families who are inside detention.
Uh, you know, Liam Ramos, right? The five-year-old with the bunny backpack who was put in Dilley. He’s the face of 3,800 children detained in the last year by the Trump administration. It’s probably much higher than that because they don’t actually report truthfully, the statistics
That really moved people when they saw Liam’s face. But what we’re trying to do is have it, his story, be connected to a greater story about families and children, because what we know in our own research.
And when we look at the voting patterns and why people voted for the Trump administration in the last election, what we see is really angry. People who feel left behind um, well, the system has left behind people. [00:35:00] Healthcare. Food stamps prenatal care, Medicare education, you name it. Housing, all of the things that affect working people who are struggling more and more as prices go up in this country. As the future starts to narrow and people don’t see an open feature for themselves but this 1% is getting more and more enriched by the policies.
And the violence that they’re enacting on communities. And so the Free Families Campaign is really a campaign not just for immigrant to free immigrant families and children. It’s really to recenter the the importance and the sAACREdness of families and to organize families across the country for their common purpose, their common good.
I was a part of a study and, advisory council that did research about how do we change the narrative on child and family detention nationally.
What we found is that the majority of the country holds a value of the sAACREd. Importance of protecting children and the [00:36:00] sanctity of the family. And when we organize and get people into conversation about that, about their own families and about their own children and what it’s like to try to survive in this time, what we realize is that there’s this great common denominator of parents actually who are struggling in a system that’s leaving people behind everywhere, We think that’s where the future of movement and solidarity work needs to go. It’s about kitchen table issues. It’s about opening a future for the next generation. if you look at the, research and sort of the feedback that you hear from younger generations about their future, it’s really bleak.
What they say, what they’re sharing is that they feel betrayed by the adults. Who are leaving them a world full of climate crisis and war and lack of opportunity, lack of rights.
And so the organizing work that we’re involved in right now, you say, oh, it’s immigrant rights work, it’s anti detention work. It’s actually about revising the [00:37:00] future for really our whole society. As things fall and burn, it’s the old order. It’s so based in your rationality that it’s collapsing and on some level you can’t stop it from falling. And so our work in this moment is to get people out of the way.
And save as many people as this system collapses. And then to vision the new system that actually is the beloved community that does provide equity, for all people that has been denied to so many of our communities. And what’s important in that work, along with the organizing and the intervention work against state violence, is the work around repair and healing.
We’re part of, a national cohort that’s been, um, sort of think tanking and doing work and sharing, across our organizations, our methods and trying to help develop new templates, new forms of how to take healing and repair, especially around multi-generational trauma. And to share it broadly so that people are resourced and have more [00:38:00] access to the skillset and the tools for healing multi-generational trauma as part of regular everyday organizing in communities across the country.
Miata Tan: That was Mike Ishii, Executive Director at Tsuru for Solidarity.
Miata Tan: The namesake of Tsuru for Solidarity is deeply symbolic, Tsuru meaning crane in Japanese is described as a creature of transformation. A symbol of healing and repair, not only for the Japanese American community, but all communities.
You are tuned into APEX Express, a weekly radio show, uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. You’ll hear more from the Tsuru for Solidarity team after this, stay with us.
Miata Tan: [00:39:00] [00:40:00] [00:41:00] That [00:42:00] was Nobody by the one and only Mitski
You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan. Tonight we are talking about deportation and the communities fighting back.
Tsuru for Solidarity, they’re a nationwide organization working to close all US detention sites and end inhumane immigration policies
We’re diving into the Japanese American legacy behind Soda’s work and what’s driving their fight against deportation. Here’s their Executive Director, Mike Ishii.
Mike Ishii: We actually have what. Probably more than 12 or 13,000 people at this point who are connected to us in our network. But then on the ground, boots in action, we have hundreds of people who are active and when we call on people like, we need you to come to this major action, we can get [00:43:00] thousands of people to turn out.
So this has been a really beautiful evolution of community organizing. We often say. We want to be the allies that our people needed during World War II when they were removed and disappeared from the community. And so that’s really our intention that guides us here. in doing so, our work is rooted in relationship building.
That’s really what that means. Like my mom didn’t know that anyone cared about her as a 10-year-old. No one came to the fences of Minidoka. Um, nobody marched in the streets and protested. There were very few people who were fighting for her freedom. And so she didn’t know, she didn’t have a relationship.
So our work is in building relationships within our own community. To Decolonize from white assimilationist forced assimilation policies that are multi-generational, that have positioned us to be inculcated and manipulated as part of a model minority dynamic. We are the group that was used as the poster [00:44:00] child by Ronald Reagan when you rolled out that term.
Unwinding that dynamic that has a stranglehold on our community. Because this is a community that was terrified for its survival, and it was grasping for straws of survival and being wildly manipulated by the society in the aftermath of the war. We get to do that work. it’s exciting for, for us to get to do that work.
And actually, Rob, that’s part of his job is to lean into that organizing that we’re going to be launching in a fuller manner now that we’re here at AACRE. We also get to really build more on what it means to be in solidarity practice. And that’s the work I often to get to do with our external partners, what I call our cousins and our siblings in the movement space. And to me, it’s some of the most fulfilling work I’ve ever gotten to do in my life because it breaks your internal isolation that comes from your historical trauma. if you. Have ever woken feeling, how do we go forward? How do we stop this? How do I ever not feel like we’re fighting alone? Do this [00:45:00] work because you get daily evidence actually that you’re not alone.
That we can win when we fight back, and that there are people who care deeply and I get to do that work. I’m very fortunate. As part of the organization our, you know, Becca, who is our Director of organizing, is an incredible strategist and gets to think tactically with our many incredible, incredible volunteers on the ground across the country.
I’m fortunate that I know some of them because I was very involved in that work early on. And all I can say is that as a result of having had a chance to be at the frontline in that kind of, deep work with our folks is that I love my people. Oh my God, I love my people. Like I’m just, so moved by the stories of people and their families and survival, and then also their courage to understand that we’re a group that achieved a certain amount of privilege in the years since forced assimilation and.
The [00:46:00] willingness to understand that’s not really something you hold onto, that you actually want to let go of that for your own benefit, and also because it’s the right thing to do in the movement toward equity. And so to get to be a part of that movement with my people. Is really a central part of our healing and to get to be a part of that in this organization at this moment, in this moment when we need to step up in, in ways that are so deeply important for the future of really the globe.
Whether or not we’ll go into an abyss of darkness or we’re gonna transform this incredible escalated violence right now, I think we’re born for this moment. I really don’t think it’s an accident. And if we. Each have that choice and opportunity to step into this moment and play a role there.
How lucky are we to get to be born right now? So that’s a little bit about how I see our role as an organization as we come into [00:47:00] AACRE and as we continue to evolve in this space.
Miata Tan : That’s really beautiful. And, and thank you for tying us back into AACRE, which is the Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, a network of progressive Asian American organizations uh, soon be joining.
Rob, could you share
what you are excited for now that Tsuru will be joining Aker and, the future work that is coming up.
Rob Buscher: Thanks for that question. You know, I think there’s so many incredible organizations that are already under AACREs fiscal sponsorship, so just even in some of the preliminary meetings that we’ve had with other AACRE group leadership and being in conversation with people that.
Oftentimes we’ve already known for, for many years. You know, I, Eddie Zang, um, and, and others who are, are involved peripherally, as funders are people that I’ve known since the film festival days. I recently learned. Kaen, who’s part of the HR staff at AACRE, a filmmaker that I worked with well over a decade [00:48:00] ago on a Muslim Youth Voices Project here in Philadelphia is also part of the team.
You know, just having these little connection points has been pointing us towards the direction that we’re meant to be here. This feels like the right moment for Tsuru to be joining Aker. Uh, It feels like there’s a lot of, , capacity and bandwidth that we haven’t had under our current circumstances.
But, um, really with the energy and enthusiasm of all of these groups coming together, I, I feel like we can really make an even bigger impact than we are in these programs. Um, as far as, you know, future. Ideas and, and programs that we have coming up on the horizon. we’re very excited about the Kintsugi Healing Conference.
Uh, as Mike has spoken about the role of healing within our work. Obviously there’s a need for repairing the divides that exist within our own Japanese American community and before we can truly be in, in solidarity and, and do collective liberation work. Being able to heal those divides within our own community needs to take [00:49:00] precedent.
So Kintsugi is a way of acknowledging that through this healing, resilience based conference allowing us to turn inwards and really think about the long-term effects of intergenerational trauma, how it’s shaped all of our families and individual pathways, and how we can ultimately come together to heal those divides.
Um, while also learning more about and training up some of our people around these ideas of collective liberation. it’s gonna be taking place in San Francisco’s Japan town and we’re very excited about that. We’ll announce the dates very shortly for October, 2026. Some of the other things that we’re working on, as I mentioned earlier, we have our black reparations campaign.
Tsuru has been doing this sort of work really in many ways since the beginning, but formalized during the, the summer of 2020 in the aftermath of the George Floyd Uprisings, the Black Reparations Campaign as one of the major work areas, with a number of other Japanese American organizations like New UK Progressives and the Japanese American Citizens League, San Jose Resistors.
as part of [00:50:00] this national coalition to, uh, achieve redress and reparations for in solidarity with the descendants of chattel slavery. Our campaign actually had the opportunity to travel to Washington DC last May to participate in National Reparation Networks national Reparations Rally that was attended by over a hundred different, organizations that are working on this issue.
Currently. We’re in the process of launching a new project called the 4 0 7 Conversations, or a 4 0 7 project. It’s acknowledging that 2026 is 407 years since the beginning of chattel slavery in North America in 1619, and the goal is to have at least 407 conversations about reparations in this calendar year.
So it’s a way to sort of normalize the topic of reparations within not just Japanese American. community spaces, but sort of in the broader conversation about what does it mean to do reparative justice work. As we look towards the future, we’re gonna be doing more [00:51:00] narrative campaign work too. We had the opportunity during the day of Remembrance to launch a, nationwide campaign that reimagined the instructions to all persons of Japanese ancestry poster that was placed in our Japan towns.
That signaled the beginning of the so-called evacuation, the forced removal of our communities in our new instructions to persons of Japanese ancestry. It was an opportunity to call people in and to, uh, mobilize and activate our community in defense of the frontline communities that are facing the brunt of state violence today.
So as we continue to strengthen and build We’re hoping to do even more of these large scale national mobilizations. And I’m just excited that we’re gonna be able to do this work together, uh, under AACREs banner.
Miata Tan: That was Rob Buscher, Director of Operations at Tsuru for Solidarity. As Rob shared from aiding the movement toward black reparations to anti-ice mobilizations. The team at [00:52:00] Tsuru is gearing up for some important campaigns this year To close out, let’s return to Sophie aka their Bay Area organizer.
I ask Sophie what work she’s most looking forward to in 2026.
Sophie Sarkar: I am very excited about our, well, yeah, I’m very excited about a lot of things.
I think I’m just excited about the ways in which am able to see as an organizer for Tsuru, just like Japanese American community really coming out and mobilizing and working together in coalition. I think, in this time, as we are all trying to figure out ways to dismantle this authoritarian regime and to resist it’s really important for us That like we are moving beyond the kind of hierarchical structure that the regime uses and figuring out how to work in coalition and to really find our lane, find what our role is [00:53:00] as an organization, as individuals. And for me it’s really exciting to see that the Japanese American community Is doing that is like really trying to work more and more in coalition and I’m excited to continue to support that. for example, we will be leading a non-cooperation training. With other JA organizations in a few months. to, yeah, really support us as a community to understand what non-cooperation looks like and how we can practice that in our various campaigns.
And yeah, I see like the japantown organizations we’re part of a, Nihon Machi Coalition there. Getting really serious about preparing for and when ICE comes and doing the workup. Upfront now to really train in knowing your rights and non-cooperation and security, just to get prepared as a collective. This year we’re also, Tsuru is also organizing our healing justice [00:54:00] conference in the Bay Area called Kintsugi, that will take place in the fall.
As part of that we hope to have a day of direct action. So I’m really excited to have the opportunity to kind of bring together our healing justice work, our healing arts work, and our direct action just integrating the three of those. And hopefully planning a really beautiful and healing and powerful action for us all to take together.
Miata Tan: That’s really lovely. you’ve mentioned Healing Justice a few times in your own personal background and experience with Tsuru, but also these fantastic campaigns that we are looking forward to. Could you speak a little bit about how the Japanese American community and the wider Tsuru for Solidarity Network is taking care of each other during this moment?
Sophie Sarkar: Yeah, such a good question. I feel like that’s something that I just notice our community is so good at [00:55:00] doing. Like, I think, you know, we really try to approach organizing from a relational perspective. So. Folks in little ways, like checking in on each other, making each other lunch. I know I had like afternoon at one of our volunteers houses the other day, just like eating lunch together and venting.
But you know, it’s just the little ways or like folding origami, yeah, I think on that kind of level, relational level of just checking in and remembering that we are human and really need that kind of connection with each other in these times, especially when it can feel really scary and isolating.
Zoomed out a little bit more, you know, like our general meetings and our trainings and those kinds of larger gathering opportunities are just a really nice way. Also, we always have a potluck dinner and feed each other. Like, it’s just a really nice way to Offer that kind of care and nourishment to one [00:56:00] another and connect as well.
Miata Tan: Love that. It’s Always great to gather over
food.
Sophie Sarkar: always.
Miata Tan: That was Sophie Sarkar the Bay Area organizer at Tsuru for Solidarity, reflecting on her communities and how they’re taking care of each other during this time. This is APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, A weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. APEX Express is every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM and with that, we’re at the end of our time here.
We really appreciate you tuning in tonight and a special thanks for Tsuru for Solidarity for sharing their time and work with us. For a transcript of today’s episode, please visit our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/APEX Express.
[00:57:00] We’ve also added links to Tsuru for Solidarity’s website, their social media channels, and where you can go to learn more about their ongoing campaigns. Be sure to check that out.
APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.
Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan. Get some rest, y’all.

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APEX Express – 4.9.26 – Library Joy
9 huhti· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight on APEX Express, join the Powerleegirls Host Miko Lee speaks with children’s book authors Lorraine Nam, Uma Krishnaswami and Maggie Tokuda-Hall about Library Joy in honor of National School Library Month!
To Learn More
Lorrraine Nam, illustrator and author Michael Threet’s book:
I’m So Happy You’re Here: A Celebration of Library Joy

Uma Krishnaswami
Her books: Book Uncle Triology

Maggie Tokuda-Hall
Her book: Love in the Library
Every Library
Authors Against Book Bans

Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Opening: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:35] Ayame Keane-Lee: Welcome to tonight’s episode of Apex Express Celebrating Library Joy. I’m Ayame Keane-Lee the editor of tonight’s show, and part of the PowerLeeGirls bringing you the introduction to tonight’s show. Did you know that April is National School Library Month and in just 10 days from April 19th to 25th is National Library Week? The theme for this year’s National Library Week is Find Your Joy with Honorary Chair Mychal Threets. The first of three interviews you’ll hear my mom, Miko Lee have tonight is with Lorraine Nam the illustrator for the newly released children’s book written by that very Mychal Threets called, “I’m So Happy You’re Here”. You will then hear Miko speak with Uma Krishnaswami about her children’s book “Book Uncle and Me,” and lastly with Maggie Tokuda-Hall about her children’s book, “Love in the Library,” and the important work of Authors Against Book Bans. As a library kid and current library worker, I have experienced firsthand the transformative power of library access and the importance of inclusive and diverse storytelling. In and out of schools, libraries are vital to nurturing and uplifting the autonomy and sovereignty of children, which always has and continues to be a liberatory practice. We hope tonight’s show will inspire you right into your local library to check out some of the great books mentioned here or to put them on hold. Let’s listen in.

[00:02:06] Miko Lee: Welcome, Lorraine Nam, illustrator of amazing
children’s books. Welcome to Apex Express.

[00:02:13] Lorraine Nam: I’m excited to be here.

[00:02:16] Miko Lee: I wanna start with a question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:02:24] Lorraine Nam: Who are my people? I would say creative people. People who are interested in having an open mind, and looking at the bright side of things, the beautiful things, people who are curious. The type of legacy that I bring I think is just my parents who are creative and then bringing that, to this new generation.

[00:02:57] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I am, I’m looking at your beautiful face, and behind you is this, find your joy and, and it’s in lots of colors on this pink banner and in at the top we see opening up of a library door with Mychal Threets, who’s the author of this book, “I’m So Happy You’re Here: A Celebration of Library Joy.” I’m wondering if you can talk about your collaborative process with Mychal Threets.

[00:03:25] Lorraine Nam: The first impression that you have of writer and illustrator for a picture book is that they work really closely together, and that’s actually not the case. We work pretty separately, but I was very excited. Mychal wrote the words to this book and they were looking for an illustrator and my agent called me and she asked me if I was interested. I was very excited about the project. I signed up for it and we worked pretty separately. We connected on Instagram, but he pretty much had no art notes, everything was pretty much whatever I was open to. Then we met for the first time and we got our very first copy of the book and we met in New York.

[00:04:10] Miko Lee: And what was that like?

[00:04:12] Lorraine Nam: Um, amazing. He is exactly who he is in his videos.

[00:04:18] Miko Lee: Can you share for our audience who he is and a little bit more about him, just in case folks don’t know.

[00:04:24] Lorraine Nam: The book calls him a librarian ambassador. He describes himself as a reader, a lover of librarians or the number one fan of libraries. This is his first book and he’s also the host of Reading Rainbow on PBS. We met at the New York Library, public Library for the first time, and he’s just so nice, very kind. Honestly, it felt like we already knew each other just because we had been talking through the publisher about the book.

[00:05:02] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. It’s so beautifully illustrated and you have a incredibly diverse,, amount of people in the book, both racially but also physically, and I really appreciate how you encapsulated that. I’m just wondering what inspired you to develop this specific imagery for this book?

[00:05:22] Lorraine Nam: Yeah, so one of the only stipulations in the art notes was that he wanted to have a diverse group of people attending the library. People of all ages of all color, all sizes, all disabilities. That seemed like a no brainer to me because I just know the message that he puts into the world. The only difficult part was narrowing down the cast. There’s all these different types of people and just trying to figure out who to focus on. I wanted to make sure that you still see the same group of kids over and over. So it felt like you were following the along throughout the day, while still having lots of diversity and lots of different types of people.

[00:06:11] Miko Lee: Had you set what the cover was gonna be at the beginning or did that come after you had already finished the whole book?

[00:06:19] Lorraine Nam: Oh, that came much later. We pretty much had the art for the interior nailed down, and then we were working on concepts for the cover. I knew from Mychal’s social media presence that maybe he didn’t want to be the poster cover of the book. He wanted to be about the library goers and the people rather than himself. And so I was kind of towing that line of like obviously people wanna see him, it’s his first book. They’re such huge fans, and so like how much to put Mychal in and how much to showcase him, as well as showcase like all the other people who go to the library.

[00:07:02] Miko Lee: He definitely does have a joyous kind of ebullient vibe to him. I recommend for audience to check out his socials because he has this, you wanna listen to him. He’s so inviting and I love the poster behind you because he is saying, like, “welcome, come into the library. This is my world.” And you also made him look so cute. Really looks like a cartoon version of him. So sweet. In your artistic process, I’m wondering what helps you define the style of art you utilize? I’m thinking about the paper cutouts that you did for a tale of two princes. What is it about the work that inspires you to select that type of style?

[00:07:43] Lorraine Nam: I actually had a very winding path to the style that I have today. So the style that I have today is very much layered. It’s painted, a lot of it is painted. And then I cut it out and then I glue and collage different elements, and then I scan everything in and enhance certain aspects through Photoshop. But a lot of it started actually in wanting to make a physical book. So it was with book binding and then with book binding, because that’s just a technique to produce a product, it was what goes in those pages and that’s when I started doing cut paper. So just silhouetted, cut paper. And I was doing that for a long time, just cutting out rice paper to make silhouettes. I wanted to tell more of the story and depict people. So then I started making paper cut [laughs] sets. So I would build —almost like Legos— a whole set of paper buildings and paper people and paper objects that are three dimensional. And then I would photograph them. And then from there, I landed in this more 2D, but playing with still technique and texture and layers.

[00:09:10] Miko Lee: Wow, that’s so interesting. Can you share a little bit more about your artistic process? Do you start at a certain time of day? Do you only work at night? Do you have a whole studio set up?

[00:09:20] Lorraine Nam: well, For the book projects because there’s such a timeline to ’em and they’re very specific. I’ll do very loose sketches on Post-it notes. They’re readily available and then you can stick two of them next to each other to make a full spread. I use these post-its, and then I would just fold them in half and use that as like very quick pencil drawings. And then if I had something that I liked, I would just go in and pen. But they were still very small. So it was more about looking at silhouettes and composition. And then I would print, it’s a very old school technique, but I would print out all the text for the book and cut ’em out. And double sided tape and just stick them on to see where the text should be on the page and where it could fit. I would just do that manually until I had something that I liked a little bit more. Then I would start creating digital, like line drawings.

[00:10:21] Miko Lee: And are you lining this all up on a wall or putting it on the desk?

[00:10:26] Lorraine Nam: Um, so they’re in like a notebook.

[00:10:29] Miko Lee: Oh, you put ’em in book format?

[00:10:31] Lorraine Nam: It’s all the spread. So it should take about two pages basically. You should be able to look at it and look at it from like an eagle eye perspective of what the entire book will look like and what the flow will be like, and if there’s closeups or this is like a far away saying, you get more of the like, setting of the library.

[00:10:52] Miko Lee: And with the font printed out really small so that it’s on the bottom of that Post-it note.

[00:10:56] Lorraine Nam: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:57] Miko Lee: Wow, that is so fascinating. And what is it when you’re eagle eye-ing, what are you looking for?

[00:11:04] Lorraine Nam: I’m pretending that I’m a kid looking at a book for the first time, with zero context and maybe zero reading level skill and just looking at the pictures and seeing if I can spot the same character and if there is a story that follows along, because this is a library book where it doesn’t talk about specific people. I wanted to be able to follow each character in the book and see what their day was like in the library. So when they first came into the library, what they were doing during the day, what friends they made, and then maybe them leaving or, you know, a resolution of some kind, like their parents are checking out symbols at the library.

[00:11:52] Miko Lee: the concept of having the character go throughout the book. Was that in the instruction or was something that you created.

[00:11:59] Lorraine Nam: That was something that I wanted. Because I know looking at picture books, the pictures can also tell a story where, the words, it might not be in the words. So I wanted there to be more of a layered storytelling through image.

[00:12:18] Miko Lee: I appreciate that as a mom. I remember when my girls were little, they would always say, where is that rabbit on the page? Or where is that thing? And so being able to track a character all the way through, is quite delightful. It adds another dimension for the multiple readings. You mentioned before about how you didn’t really meet Mychal, the author of the book until the very end, and I guess that’s common as an illustrator and you’ve worked with so many different experts in their fields from, physicist Neil Degrasse Tyson to Skater Nathan Chen. How is their very different fields, how does that impact your art making?

[00:12:57] Lorraine Nam: It’s actually the most fun. It’s what drew me to illustration in the first place. I love being able to do like a deep dive and a specific subject that I wouldn’t necessarily have gravitated towards and do that research. I actually do go to the library. I start the process at the library and I look at all the books about that particular topic, and then see what other people have done. And so working on the book for Neil deGrasse Tyson, it was so much fun looking at different how space is depicted the idea of galaxies and making that tangible and real for kids. And then for Nathan Chen, I was already a fan before I got the project, so it was very easy. But watching the videos, seeing all the different techniques and for his book it was more looking at sports books. Because he’s such a unique person in his specific field in figure skating that there weren’t very many books on figure skating and most are of a female portrayal. I was looking more at sports and how people show different types of movement, , and show like form. And the more technical aspects that are very, very, very specific and very critical to those things.

[00:14:32] Miko Lee: And how did that manifest into your book?

[00:14:35] Lorraine Nam: Um, a lot of drawings of like, the breakdown of his jumps and trying to figure out can a child do this jump [laughs]? And also doing a lot of research ’cause he’s a very private person. His book is not about him, it’s not a biography, but it’s also loosely based off of him. You know, I have two other siblings. If I had a book based off of me, I want my siblings to be involved and represented in that as well. So I included his family, even though they’re not a huge part of the book, his siblings are not like big characters. But they’re still represented in there. So he can still be like, oh that’s my family. This is based off of my story.

[00:15:32] Miko Lee: So when you’re doing these approaches, like including Nathan’s family or in the library book, making sure characters go all the way through, is that something you have to check in with the writer about, to see if they’re okay? Or is that something that you just do and then you submit and you see if they like it?

[00:15:50] Lorraine Nam: That’s something that I do, that I find joy in and see. Usually the first eyes on my sketches are the publisher and the art director. And I actually have no idea what, at what stage they really share the sketches, if it’s like at a more finalized stage or if it’s an early on one, but I usually just go with my own ideas and see what they think about it.

[00:16:20] Miko Lee: Wow. I didn’t know that you could have that much say into it. That’s lovely. You talked a little bit about using the library for research. Gosh, I imagine that Neil deGrasse Tyson, there’s so much research on it, that must have been a deep dive. I’m wondering what the library meant to you as a child.

[00:16:38] Lorraine Nam: Yeah. I grew up as a big reader. The library for me it was a magical space that I wasn’t really sure what it was. My parents, because they grew up in Korea and moved here to the States, there was a big language barrier between us and they’re also very not talkative people. They just took us to this place one day and it was our local public library and it was right before closing and we were able to check out as many books as we wanted in whatever type of book that we wanted. I felt like that was magical, that there was no limit to it.

[00:17:19] Miko Lee: My last question is, what are you working on now?

[00:17:22] Lorraine Nam: I’m working on a few books, actually. I’m juggling a few, but they’re all very fun and different. I’m doing a book about a boy dreaming of flying, being a pilot. So I think that will be a really fun imaginative book.

[00:17:43] Miko Lee: What is one of your books that you would’ve liked to read to your younger self?

[00:17:50] Lorraine Nam: Mm, I probably Wei Skates On, the book with Nathan Chen. ‘Cause his story is about overcoming obstacles and being disappointed. And just feeling frustrated and upset. And I feel like that’s an important lesson even in adulthood. It’s not really resolved through words. It’s more of like the, everyone is there for him, his family is there for him, and they all just want him to enjoy what he’s doing and to not care about winning or losing.

[00:18:33] Miko Lee: Lorraine Nam, thank you so much for chatting with us about your work and about the library as a magical place, appreciate talking with you.

[00:18:42] Lorraine Nam: Thank you so much. I had so much fun talking with you.

[00:18:45] Miko Lee: Welcome, amazing award-winning children’s book author Uma Krishnaswami, I’m so happy to have you here on Apex Express.

[00:18:54] Uma Krishnaswami: Miko, it’s my pleasure to be here.

[00:18:57] Miko Lee: I wanted to start with a question I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:19:05] Uma Krishnaswami: What a wonderful question. Who are my people? My people are children who are, my ideal readership is the eight to 12-year-old group. I write for children. I’m not particularly thinking about audience when I begin writing. But at some point I want my readership to feel validated, whether they recognize themselves as being in my stories or my stories are offering them a window into a world that they are not immediately familiar with. So I would say those are my people.

[00:19:45] Miko Lee: And what is the legacy that you carry with you?

[00:19:48] Uma Krishnaswami: I grew up in India. The year that I was born India had been independent for all of nine years. So I carry very much that colonial legacy. I also am an immigrant to two countries, early in my adulthood to the United States and about 12 years ago to Canada. So my legacy is one of moving and finding new roots, finding community. Those are the things that I try to carry forward in my stories. When I began writing, I lived in the US and I started writing when my son was born. So there I was with a little brown baby and I went looking for books that would represent him and I didn’t find them. And I think that is what made me think in my early thirties that, real life people could write children’s books because of course the books I had read as a child were all written by people from England and many of them were dead. I kind of thought you had to be dead and British to be a writer. So yeah, it’s complicated, isn’t it? All of that works into, what you think of as, as your legacy. Having done this for 30 plus years now.

[00:21:03] Miko Lee: And you’ve written so many beautiful books. Tell us about a little bit more about that first book.

[00:21:09] Uma Krishnaswami: So the very first book, it was called Stories of the Flood. I realized very quickly that I didn’t really know what I was doing. I looked to folk tales and traditional tales as a way to teach me about story. My second book called The Broken Tusk Stories of the Hindu God Ganesha. That is the one that I consider as the book that taught me how to write. I had a wonderful editor [unintelligble] Thorpe at a small press in Connecticut, Linnet Books. She told me to lean into story and to see myself as a storyteller. In a way, every book I’ve written has taught me how to write.

[00:21:47] Miko Lee: Can you tell us about your favorite book as a kid?

[00:21:52] Uma Krishnaswami: My favorite book as a kid, it would have to be Winnie The Pooh.

[00:21:58] Miko Lee: And what was it about Winnie the Pooh that enamored you?

[00:22:01] Uma Krishnaswami: I came to it very early and aunt had traveled to England and she brought me my copy of winnie the Pooh in the House of Poo Corner. And I read them, sitting in very Indian gardens, sometimes up in trees. I spent lots of time up in trees and I took my own geography and placed it over the geography of the book. , So that for me, the a hundred acre wood had lime trees and banyan trees and possibly mango trees. It didn’t occur to me, until much later when I read an Enid Blyton reader. I had my moment of disillusionment with Enid Blyton and that’s when it really occurred to me that there was an us and a them in, in some of the storytelling I was consuming.

[00:22:49] Miko Lee: What age was that where you recognized that?

[00:22:51] Uma Krishnaswami: My post-colonial moment?

[00:22:53] Miko Lee: Yes.

[00:22:54] Uma Krishnaswami: I might have been a 11.

[00:22:56] Miko Lee: Oh, wow. And were you still living in India at that time?

[00:22:59] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah, yeah. 11 was a very formative year for me. My grandfather passed away, so it sort of brought mortality , into the framework for me. Also that was my year of disillusionment with Blyton. ’cause I read The , river of Adventure. And the villain in it had my name. He was called. Uma, Raya or Raya Uma or something like that. And yeah, I was just shocked. Just totally shocked. It was pure coincidence, I’m sure. She probably just, pulled the name out of the air and plunked it in. But. I began to notice that he was described as dark skinned and he was described as cunning. All this language that had slid right past me before began to be apparent. So, yeah,

[00:23:47] Miko Lee: I love that. That is so amazing. This name, like what? That’s my name as the villain.

[00:23:53] Uma Krishnaswami: I’m the Bad Guy. No, I’m not.

[00:23:56] Miko Lee: And all of your books are such a wonderful clap back to that because you have a multitude of characters and so many different worlds. Initially reached out to you because I started reading book Uncle this trilogy of books that are so lovely. Can you first share a little bit about what the Book Uncle’s Trilogy is about.

[00:24:16] Uma Krishnaswami: Okay, so it didn’t start out as a trilogy. It didn’t even start out as a book. It started out as a short story and then it didn’t quite fit. It wasn’t a picture book. It seemed to have more layers than that, so it kind of grew. But what started Book Uncle and Me was I was visiting my parents in India. At the time, and I was on this very busy urban street and there was this kid sitting on this on the, on the sidewalk. Um, it was kind of a broken brick sidewalk, and she was sitting cross-legged right in the middle and she was reading book and she was just oblivious to the crowd going around her and the. Buses on the road and there were, you know, random goats and dogs running around and she just was ignoring everything and she was absorbed in her book. And I remembered that I had been that kind of reader as a child. There was an election going on at the time as well, and I thought, I wonder what would happen if I put those two things together. And that is how Book Uncle came to be.

[00:25:14] Miko Lee: And then there was just, you wanted to live in those characters more, so you ended up writing additional books?

[00:25:20] Uma Krishnaswami: Hmm and that’s a very good question. And actually no, I didn’t, I thought I was done. I wrote Book Uncle and Me back in, I’m say 2009, 2010, something like that. I probably started it in 2010. Um, it got published originally in India in 2012, I believe. And then it was picked up by Ground Wood in Canada and published in Canada and the US so North American edition in 2016. And I thought, you know, I’m done. I’m writing other things. And then come the pandemic and we’re all in lockdown. And like a lot of writers, I was doing, um, many, many, virtual. Presentations and programs. Um, and I did something through the North Vancouver Public Library and, there were kids zooming in from, you know, some from home, some from their bubbles, some from classrooms, whatever. And we were talking about book uncle and one of the kids, I think in third grade maybe, she said, Are you gonna write a sequel? And I am just joshing, right? I am. I said, yeah, should I? And they’re all going, yeah, you should. And you should write three because you’ve got three characters you should give them each a [story]. And I’m like, all right guys i’ll think about it. I absolutely will but not really taking it seriously. And then as often happens. the session ended and, you know, there we were all in lockdown going nowhere. And I thought maybe, maybe there’s something there. Maybe I could return to that. And in a way I was kind of intrigued because I hadn’t, had never thought about a trilogy and I was interested in how that would play out. Um, and it was kind of a writing challenge to myself, but honestly, once I started writing Birds on the Brain, which was book two it just kind of, I hesitate to say wrote itself ’cause I, that just seems, you know, so kind of woo woo. But, um, it did, it did. Uh, the, the kid came in and she took over and then a bird flew onto the rooftop and there I was on my way. So that’s the story of, of how that that happened. In retrospect, I’m really sorry I didn’t ask that child’s name because I would’ve absolutely loved to have acknowledged her in the book. But thank you child from North Vancouver, whoever you are.

[00:27:40] Miko Lee: That is so amazing. That’s by request, by audience request. You fulfilled this goal of a trilogy and and I I love that they even said, not just a sequel, but a trilogy.

[00:27:52] Uma Krishnaswami: Oh, they were. Yeah. They had it. I mean, they had, then they, they figured it out, which was really lovely.

[00:27:58] Miko Lee: And those, that trilogy is really geared, as you were saying to the second and third grade audience and I So many of your books are written around kids that can make a difference. What is it about that age that appeals to you and that motivation to show them how they can change the world?

[00:28:16] Uma Krishnaswami: I think they have this really, strong sense of what’s fair. It’s the age at which, you know, you start pushing back against what you see as small unfairnesses in your life. Parental restrictions quite often, or older siblings. You’re pushing back. You’re doing a little bit of finding who you are. And I think that uh, you begin to get a sense of awareness of the big world outside your small circle. And I think also one of the things that drives me, with writing to this age is that, I feel that it is so unfair that grownups, the adult world, has created so much injustice. And we just kind of expect the next generation to step up and step into it and, and do the best they can. and it just, it doesn’t seem right not to at least give them the wherewithal to think about that. And they do, they have children have voices and their voices matter. As we found out with, the climate strikes. I mean it really was young people who brought those messages out into the world and forced us to think about them and talk about them. So, I think that we owe children that.

[00:29:34] Miko Lee: So which of your books would you want to read to the second or third grade Uma?

[00:29:43] Uma Krishnaswami: [Laughs] Maybe Book Uncle and Me. Because I think there’s a lot of second and third grade Uma in that book. I was a compulsive reader like Yasmin. I would’ve absolutely read a book every day for the rest of my life if I’d had that many books available to me. I didn’t. So I read the ones I had over and over again. I lived in an imaginary world, quite a bit of the time.

[00:30:06] Miko Lee: Speaking of having access to lots of books, I’m wondering what your relationship was like to libraries, both as a child and then now.

[00:30:15] Uma Krishnaswami: I’m a proud and inveterate library goer. I put holds on things. I go browse on shelves. I download eBooks and audio books. I always have a pending list. I’m very, very grateful for libraries and also for librarians whom many of whom I have come to know over my life and am immensely grateful for. I did not have access to libraries much as a child. We didn’t have a public library system that was free and available and open to everybody. There were the kind of unofficial lending library types that I feature in Book Uncle and Me. There are sadly fewer of them now, but you still find them on street corners in India. I remember taking a book and giving one and then getting one back in return. That was, that was part of my life in some of the places we lived.

[00:31:07] Miko Lee: Did you know an actual book uncle?

[00:31:10] Uma Krishnaswami: I didn’t actually pay much attention, to the people who handed those books out. I was much more, focused on the books I was getting. There are characters who I’ve seen who have run these things. I once had somebody email me and say, I’m a book uncle. This is what I do. So that was really nice.

[00:31:31] Miko Lee: That’s sweet. I wanna roll back and talk a little bit more about your artistic process. I’m wondering if you, as a writer, as illustrator, you can sometimes be in your own world, and I’m wondering what your process is.

[00:31:43] Uma Krishnaswami: My place is right here. This is my office room, and I’m standing at a treadmill desk, and usually what I will do, is when I’m writing, I will turn that on very, very slowly. I usually start out at the idea stage with a notebook and a pen. I have fountain pens with very varied colors of ink, and I use those always to write my initial notes and questions about a new story idea. I don’t go to the computer and the keyboard until the idea has started showing up quite a few times. In, perhaps in a few iterations, almost as if I’m actually pushing it away at first, you know, saying, don’t scratch up my window until you are developed a little bit more. I’m not going to, indulge, the initial shallowness that usually the first idea is often not what it’s gonna end up being. I question that, and sometimes this is gonna sound really crazy, but, if I write those questions many times over in different colored inks, the answers begin to break out in clumps. Once I’ve begun to think, okay, well maybe I, I know what I could do with this. That’s when I open up a file.

[00:32:56] Miko Lee: Ooh share a little bit more about the different colored inks. How does that work?

[00:33:00] Uma Krishnaswami: Um, right over there, there’s a whole row of inks, and right over here is a fountain pen, and I have several of them. I change the ink colors, and when I get stuck with something, it really does help to write those questions to myself, in a journal notebook. I have a terrible handwriting, so I used to really worry about when people gave me nice notebooks. Little empty notebooks with beautiful glossy pages. I used to think, God, my writing is so awful. I feel like I’m desecrating this beautiful book. I’ve gotten over that and it’s actually really helpful to physically write that thought for me is very, very useful.

[00:33:39] Miko Lee: And when you see the different colors, is it like words that stand out to you, that you piece together? Yeah.

[00:33:44] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or sometimes I’ll write something, in a paragraph, and then I’ll break it up and write it in a lineated way, maybe in a different color. You just start seeing things differently when you try different ways of thinking about the same thing. It’s all a trick to get the kind of managerial editorial mind out of the way. You need her later, but I don’t need her when I’m trying to shape something.

[00:34:13] Miko Lee: The, for the creative process. Mm-hmm. The multiple colors just helps

[00:34:16] Uma Krishnaswami: Right.

[00:34:16] Miko Lee: Pull you into that.

[00:34:17] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah. It just loosens, it loosens my mind up so I don’t feel so focused on the objective. I often tell myself, I think Linda Sue Park used to say this. You don’t have to write a whole novel. You just write a scene. And so that’s what I tell myself, I’m a sceneist. I’m not a novelist. I’m just a sceneist. I write one scene. And that’s all I need to write. Then I will write another one and so forth.

[00:34:38] Miko Lee: And do you use sticky notes or something to keep those scenes separately or

[00:34:42] Uma Krishnaswami: just all kinds of things? I use sticky notes. I use little boards on which I draw plot lines, and then I write, notes to myself. I use the journal notebooks. I’ve started using Scrivener and I actually have found that helpful but not until I’ve got something, in enough shape to plug things in.

[00:35:01] Miko Lee: Oh, I love hearing about artistic process. That’s so fascinating. I appreciate you and you’re showing your beautiful pen and everything. It’s so great.

[00:35:08] Uma Krishnaswami: It’s messy, right? One of the things I’ve learned is to lean into the messiness and not try to organize things too fast, too early.

[00:35:16] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm. Giving yourself the time for the creative juices to flow.

[00:35:20] Uma Krishnaswami: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:21] Miko Lee: So my last question is, what are you working on now?

[00:35:25] Uma Krishnaswami: I’ve actually just got done with edits on a picture book, which is going to be called Mango Sun. And then I’m working on another picture book. That’s just gone to my agent. It’s got to do with wildlife rescue and conservation in the Himalayas. It’s an Indian setting, but a very different setting from Mango Sun.

[00:35:44] Miko Lee: And most of the ideas from your books are just coming from your imagination or something you read or where are you pulling from to get your inspiration?

[00:35:52] Uma Krishnaswami: Everywhere. Absolutely everywhere. I have a picture book that came out of a trip that we took to Galapagos and will it ever take form? I don’t know, it’s about the rewilding of an island , and how when you bring one species back, the other one follows. Some of it’s from my childhood. I have two picture books that came out of a memory of planting a mango seed and watching it grow.

[00:36:21] Miko Lee: Sounds lovely. Two of my favorite things, mango and Sun [laughs], appreciate you joining us and sharing about your artistic process and your amazing book. And I’ll put a link to your website in our show notes. And thank you so much for joining us and talking to us about Book Uncle and your work.

[00:36:37] Uma Krishnaswami: Miko, thank you so much. It’s really a delight.

[00:36:41] Miko Lee: Welcome, Maggie Tokuda Hall to Apex Express.

[00:36:45] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:36:47] Miko Lee: I’m so happy to have you talking about, your wonderful book, love in the Library. But first I wanna, ask you a question I ask my guest, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:37:01] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Oh man. I feel like I have so many tribes that I identify with in different ways. , Gosh, who are my people? I mean, generally speaking, angry queer teenage girls very much my people. Tired Jewish aunties also my people. Exhausted Asian mothers also my people, [laughs] librarians and book people are my people. I, I, I don’t know. I feel like I have so many people that I feel an affinity toward and an affection for, and kinship with.

[00:37:38] Miko Lee: I like you naming all of those because we’re multifaceted people and there’s many different things that make up who we are. Yeah. And what is the legacy that you carry with you from all these tribes you’re a part of?

[00:37:50] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: From my mother, I carry a legacy of honoring the truth, like really believing that children are owed the truth and that part of being an adult is being courageous enough to tell it. but I also come from like a vibrant family of Jewish storytellers and I feel like I have that, that I carry with me as well.

[00:38:17] Miko Lee: Thank you. So you’ve written the book Love in the Library about Tamma, a woman who works at a library in the Minidoka concentration camp during World War ii.

[00:38:28] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Mm-hmm.

[00:38:28] Miko Lee: And she meets George and falls in love. Can you tell me about how you very first heard this true love story of your grandparents?

[00:38:40] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I can’t actually, I don’t remember the first time I heard this story. It is a story that I’ve just always known. like for me it’s very much a fabric of how I came to understand the world and my place in it. Like sky is blue, grandma and grandpa met in a prison camp, you know, normal stuff. And so, um,

[00:39:00] Miko Lee: so it’s just part of the family lore?

[00:39:03] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. Like, it’s not something my mother was ever shy about telling us. And I truly do not remember the first time she talked to me about it because I remember being very small and already feeling like I knew that story.

[00:39:15] Miko Lee: Okay. Then how did you decide to turn it into a children’s book?

[00:39:19] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah, so, in 2017 when President Trump took office for the first time, in his very first executive order was to sign the travel or Muslim ban where he was banning people from Muslim majority countries from coming to the United States. It was clear immediately that he was gonna be using his time and power to enact a white supremacist agenda. I knew I needed to do all the things that we’re supposed to do. Like I called my representatives and I wrote my postcards and I marched and I did all those things. But I really did try to audit what I had to offer, particularly children in that moment. That was unique to me. And I realized I had this beautiful story in my own family, not just about the cruelty of those sorts of policies, but also the resilience and power of the people who they target.

[00:40:05] Miko Lee: Ooh. Fired up the, that truth teller part of you just became ready to go.

[00:40:11] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah.

[00:40:11] Miko Lee: Um, speaking of the impact of politics and what’s going on and how that relates to books, I know that in April, 2023, Scholastic wanted to include love in the library in a collection around AANHPI folks, but they wanted to edit your amazingly fierce author’s note. Can you share with our audience what happened?

[00:40:34] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, first of all, thank you for calling it amazingly fierce. In my author’s note, I talk about how what happened to my grandparents wasn’t an isolated moment in American history and that it was racist, which I think is a, a reflection of a very basic understanding of that history. It, it’s not, a creative extrapolation and. Scholastic offered to license the book, but my licensing offer came with a caveat, which was that I had to remove that entire paragraph. Um, and I had to remove the word racism from the text altogether. And so I decided to say no and say no publicly. And for about three months, my full-time job was talking about Scholastic, but also about our obligation to tell children, American history, honestly.

[00:41:19] Miko Lee: And they wanted you to get word of the word racist. Did they say why?

[00:41:24] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes, they basically said, the language is too strong and we fear that some teachers won’t bring it in for fear of this political climate, which is the nice way of saying like, we have to sell into places where book bans are happening and we think that this language is too incendiary for people who would ban books, which to me was always really, Unsatisfactory logic, because books about Japanese American incarceration are banned all the time and they don’t use as strident of language as I use in that author’s note. baseball saved us, gets banned. They called us, the enemy gets banned. This story is already considered dangerous by the people who would ban books, so they were trying to hold a center that just doesn’t exist.

[00:42:04] Miko Lee: And so what did you end up doing?

[00:42:07] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I said no and said no publicly, just with like, sort of the hope of, sparking some intra community conversation among kid lit creators about what sort of edits are appropriate to offer people. I would, I still posit, that that’s a completely inappropriate edit and that’s about sanding down people of color’s, history and perspective to cater to a white audience. And I was unwilling to do it. and Scholastic initially released like a very, incomplete apology. And then when they received a lot of pushback about that, they offered a much more full apology. They offered to meet with me and my publisher, the CEO of Scholastic and the head of their education divisions, which is the division that made me this offer. And then they also had me work with a restorative justice consultant, for like a year to try to figure out what they could do better. But what I said to them at the end of that time that I told them, I was extremely transparent that I would be talking about this publicly. So I don’t feel bad saying exactly what I said to them here is, I think the exact same thing would’ve happened. It just would’ve happened more politely.

[00:43:17] Miko Lee: Wow.

[00:43:18] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I don’t think that they actually reexamined what their role is as a publisher of Books for Children under Unconsolidated authoritarianism. They just figured out how to ask people to make racist edits more, more, uh, gently.

[00:43:33] Miko Lee: And you worked with them for one year with an RJ consultant.

[00:43:36] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, like, not every day, but we had, you know, meetings over the months. And she was a smart lady. Like I don’t think that she, you know, did nothing. I think she was trying her best, but I think that, you know, big institutions are very slow to institute cultural change and that that on the one hand has to happen from the top down, but also can’t happen from the top down.

[00:43:56] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:43:56] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: And so I genuinely believe that there CEO was trying his hardest to, to make a meaningful change, but without them really stopping and examining and questioning what their own role in this moment is in a critical way. I don’t think that they are going to be able to have answered what I would’ve required for them to, for me to then accept their licensing offer. ‘Cause they made it again.

[00:44:25] Miko Lee: So at the end of the one year long, they made the licensing offer to you again?

[00:44:29] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. I think just to be kind, just as like a gesture of like, listen, we know we messed up. We’d love to license your book and I still said no because I don’t think that they made meaningful enough change.

[00:44:40] Miko Lee: Hmm. Wow. I love this. What did you learn from this experience?

[00:44:47] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: That it is very unusual for people to blow the whistle within publishing, even when the examples are egregious.

[00:44:54] Miko Lee: Tell me about your connection with Authors Against Book Bans. Did that come out of this experience with Scholastic, or were you involved actively involved in this prior to that?

[00:45:05] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: No, it absolutely came as a result of my experience with Scholastic. Authors against Book Bans is an organization that I’m currently the president of. We’re over 5,000 book creators across the country who are united under a single point of view, which is that the government shouldn’t be allowed to tell us what to read. That’s what we believe and that’s what we fight for. And I got involved in founding the group along with specifically David Levithan, who’s a really wonderful young adult and middle grade author, who had put together most of this group before I even came on board. Cause we realized that authors needed a central place to fight. There was no one organizing specifically us. And so Authors Against Book Bans was born out of necessity and, the dearth of a place that existed for us. Everyone would call on us to come speak, but it was extremely ad hoc. We weren’t making any kind of unified movement, even though we all so passionately agree that, you know, book bans are anti-American and in violation of our First Amendment rights. And, you know, the freedom to read is a necessary freedom for a free and democratic society. and the reason I’d reached out to David initially was because I was hoping to put together something like Authors Against Book Bans, but just by myself, which is, maybe a testament more to my own personality [laughs] problems than anything else, but I was like, I’ll just figure it out. And he was like, you know, I’m actually assembling a group that’s trying to do this. Would you like to be a part of it? And that’s how I came aboard. But I had gotten interested in it because as a result of the Scholastic fiasco, I was invited to give the keynote speech at the Idaho Library Association in 2023. I gave my little speech that I’d been giving a lot then, um, about how we have an obligation to tell American history honestly. And, people were like, the reaction was so emotional to it and so profound and like, I thought it was a good speech. I’m proud of the speech, but like it, something else was going on and I could feel it. And I started talking to the people who were there and when these librarians started telling me what they had gone through, just for making books like mine available to children, stalking, harassment, death threats. One of them had been followed home, like really frightening, scary things happening to them on like, in some cases a daily basis. I realized like I was gonna be a part of this fight. That was that. I wasn’t gonna let them fight alone. And so, you know, in, in my advocacy work now, Idaho still holds like a very precious place in my heart because I think that it’s a very forgotten state. When we think about places that need help, when we think about places that have been gerrymandered, when we think about places where there are so many good people who are disenfranchised and unable to affect meaningful change in their state level, governments. That have just been absolutely run roughshod over by Christian nationalists. We should be thinking about Idaho. They have, I think, like the highest neo-Nazi population in the United States. so it’s a very direct line between my grandparents being incarcerated to the activism that I do now. And it wouldn’t have happened without Scholastic’s offensive offer.

[00:48:22] Miko Lee: I did not realize that librarians were personally being assaulted or attacked or followed. For books.

[00:48:29] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: You should watch, the librarian’s documentary that’s now streaming on PBS. Okay. Um, it’s common across the country. Amanda Jones, who’s an Authors Against Book Bans member no big deal, is a librarian in Louisiana that can’t go grocery shopping in her own hometown anymore for fear for her own safety because she has taken a stand to like refuse to remove lgbtq plus books from her school library shelves. It’s really dire. And I think people understand objectively that book bans are a problem in our country. I do not think that they understand how violent that this fight is. It’s a really dark and hard time to be a librarian. So if you’re a person who supports libraries, you should be thanking your librarians and letting them know one-on-one and in person face-to-face that you appreciate the work that they do, because there are people who are making their lives really difficult.

[00:49:25] Miko Lee: Can you talk about what the library meant to you as a child?

[00:49:30] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, honestly it was like a part-time babysitter. You’re a kid, there’s a library. Entertain yourself, you figure it out. I think the first time I really felt like a sense of belonging in the library was in middle school. We moved from LA to Northern California and I had to start a new school in seventh grade. I didn’t really know anyone and it was embarrassing to not have people to eat lunch with and things like that. So I would eat lunch in the library. And the librarian was really kind about it. Like she never called attention to it. She never embarrassed me about it. She would let me sneakily eat in there, even though there was a very specific rule that you weren’t allowed to eat in the library. she put, the Enchanted Forest Chronicles on an end cap once, and that’s how I found them and ended up reading the entire series and that was really when I became a fantasy reader and you know, my debut novel was a fantasy novel. I still feel very much like a fantasy reader kind of at heart, and that started there. I mean, we never know when libraries are going to save a kid’s life.

[00:50:39] Miko Lee: Can we go back to how you ended up writing this book about your grandparents’ experience? Sure. And what was the first spark for you to say, I wanna turn this into something. It’s a family lore, but I want more people to know about it.

[00:50:54] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: I mean, the Trump administration thing,

[00:50:56] Miko Lee: it was truly that. You said it was

[00:50:57] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yeah. Trump was it

[00:50:58] Miko Lee: Trump got elected. People should know this happened.

[00:51:00] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes. What do you have to tell children in this moment If they’re Muslim, they’re scared, and if they’re not, they need a way to understand what it means to feel afraid. Both of those things need to happen at the same time of like, you have to offer comfort to the children of the marginalized. You have to offer perspective to the children who have the privilege not to feel that fear. And so I have this story and what I love about this story is. I know that children are capable of holding the complexity of this story is both very romantic and very sweet, and also the circumstances it happened under were completely unfair. That’s the kind of logic children are able to hold, and they should be given the opportunity to hold that kind of complexity because it’ll serve them for the rest of their life because most of most situations we confront are complex.

[00:51:57] Miko Lee: And how were you able to eke out more details of that story? Did you do family interviews or was it more from your imagination?

[00:52:05] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: My mother is a journalist and she kept my grandmother’s journals from the time she was in Minidoka. So some of it comes from my grandmother’s journals. Some of it comes from working with my mother to make sure that it felt accurate, tonally and factually. ‘Cause she was not gonna let me publish a book that was nonsense. I always say it’s Truman Capote true. ‘Cause the situation, the sensory details, all that stuff real, but the dialogue is made up. The dialogue is art. The dialogue is a way for children to understand how they might’ve been feeling. They never had succinct, quick conversations like this about their humanity and how they felt about each other. It was a long courting process, and so, you know. That part is made up for children,

[00:52:49] Miko Lee: but you, but you did include actual quotes from her journal too, right?

[00:52:53] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Yes. The book closes with her words, not mine.

[00:52:57] Miko Lee: Can you give us those final words?

[00:53:00] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: The miracle is in us as long as we believe in beauty, in change, in hope. Which are words she wrote while she was imprisoned in Minidoka.

[00:53:11] Miko Lee: And how does that resonate with you in the time of now?

[00:53:15] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: They are words that I desperately cling to in the hope that I can see them become manifest.

[00:53:23] Miko Lee: And what are you working on now?

[00:53:26] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Making Authors Against Book Bans as operational as possible.

[00:53:31] Miko Lee: And what does that look like?

[00:53:32] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: In late 2025, we became a nonprofit corporation. We have fiscal sponsorship under EveryLibrary, which is a really wonderful advocacy group that’s a combination [501](c)3-(c)4, which means you can make tax deductible donations to them, but also they do overtly political work. And so now we can receive tax deductible, donations and continue to do the overtly political work that we do. We are an unapologetically political organization. We are more than happy to help get people elected who fight for the freedom to read, and we are delighted to show the door to people who would stand in our way of that freedom.

[00:54:09] Miko Lee: And how can people get more involved in your work?

[00:54:13] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: They could absolutely go to authorsagainstbookbans.com and make a donation. We need it [laughs]. We are one of the only organizations that receives donations that exists for the sole purpose of fighting book bans. Most every other group in our space have an angle that book bans affect them, and so they fight against them, but that’s not their only purview. It is our only purview. So if it is something that you were interested in fighting, then you could make a donation to us. I would suggest signing up to be on the email list from EveryLibrary because they mobilize everybody, not just authors and book creators. And if you are a book creator, self-published, traditionally published, we don’t care. Then you should sign up to be a member of Authors Against Book Bans and you’ll get calls to action every Friday.

[00:55:07] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing with us about your book and educating us about the work you’re doing and appreciate hearing from you. Thank you for joining us.

[00:55:16] Maggie Tokuda-Hall: Thank you for having me.

[00:55:28] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night..

The post APEX Express – 4.9.26 – Library Joy appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 4.2.26 – Surviving Through Solidarity.
2 huhti· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Annie Lee moderates a panel with African and Asian Americans about the impacts of Birthright Citizenship and the need for Surviving Through Solidarity. Guests include: Lisa Holder, Ming Hsu Chen, Don Tamaki and Michael Harris.

Link to an APEX Episode on Wong Kim Ark from March 20, 2025
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:40] Miko Lee: Welcome to Apex Express. I’m your host, Miko Lee, and tonight we will listen to a recent event, Birthright Citizenship, Surviving Through Solidarity that took place at Chinese for Affirmative Action. Just yesterday, on April 1st, the Supreme Court heard the case around birthright citizenship. This event that you’re gonna listen to was highlighting Asian and African American solidarity. As you might know, the cases of dread Scott in 1857 and Wong Kim Ark in 1898 are linked as landmark Supreme Court cases that directly defined and redefined American citizenship specifically about race and birthright. While Dred Scott denied citizenship to people of African descent, Wong Kim Ark’s case utilized the subsequent 14th Amendment to solidify birthright citizenship for children born to foreign nationals. I’m just noting that in this conversation, because it was a panel discussion that was live, there was some irregular use of microphones, so sometimes the audio can be a bit spotty. Please bear with us, and if you want to review the transcript, check out our website, kpfa.org, apex Express. And last year we also covered the story of Wong Kim Ark and have included this past show in our show notes. Now let’s listen in to moderator Annie Lee, Lawyers Michael Harris and Don Tamaki, Lisa Holder of Equal Justice Society and Ming Chen of UC Law.

[00:02:20] Annie Lee: Everyone. My name is Annie Lee and I am the managing director of policy at Chinese for Affirmative Action. Welcome to CAA’s office here in San Francisco, Chinatown. And thank you all for being here today for our discussion: Birthright Citizenship Surviving through Solidarity. CAA and Stop AAPI Hate are proud to co-sponsor this event because it matters to us. CAA has been around since 1969 and we are a community based organization that provides direct services to lingual working class Chinese immigrants. And we also try to improve their lives through policy and advocacy. And in 2020, we co-founded Stop AAPI Hate, which is the national leading aggregator of anti-Asian hate incidents. And we know at Stop AAPI Hate that anti-immigrant policies are anti-Asian hate. So why are we here right now? March marks two anniversaries of two Supreme Court cases. One is Dred Scott and the other is Wong Kim Ark. These are two seminal cases in US history. And next week on April 1st, the Supreme Court will hear oral arguments in the lawsuits challenging Trump’s birthright citizenship executive order. So we are here to talk about birthright citizenship because it’s an issue that is near and dear to both the Black and Asian communities.

[00:03:46] Without further ado, I am so thrilled to welcome this panel of amazing folks. Let’s start with Michael Harris. Michael Harris here on my right is a retired attorney. He, for many, many years led the juvenile justice division at the National Center for Youth Law, an incredible litigator and advocates, and I’m so proud that he’s here. He’s also on the Equal Justice Society Board. Next to Michael is Don Tamaki. Don is a lawyer at the firm Minami Tamaki, and you might know him because he was part of the legal team that successfully got reparations for Japanese Americans after decades of fighting that injustice. So thank you Don. Don and Lisa, actually, spend time together on the California Reparations Task Force. And so this is Lisa Holder next to Don. Lisa is the president of the Equal Justice Society, which is based in Oakland, an incredible legal organization that has been in many, many fights, including, they filed an amicus brief in support of birthright citizenship, and that brief discusses why this is an issue for the Black community. And last but not least, we have Professor Ming Chen, who is a law professor at UC Law, and she’s also the faculty director of the RICE Program, which is Race, Immigration, Citizenship, and Equality. So thank you so much to my panel and let’s dive in. So some of you know, but I am a former US history teacher, so I often worry that people don’t adequately understand American history and I fear that people don’t understand reconstruction and the 14th Amendment. So let’s start with the origin of birthright citizenship. What is birthright citizenship and where did it come from and why does its origin matter for understanding what’s happening today? So Ming, I’m gonna start with you because you’re a law professor and then others chime in. Lisa, Michael, Don. ’cause I think you’ll have more to add.

[00:05:45] Ming Chen: Great. Thank you so much Annie, and thank you to CAA for having us all. I’m really excited to be part of this conversation, which I think is going to be really the beginning of a series of conversations over the next few months. So you’re starting in the right place, Annie, in asking us what birthright citizenship is, because that is the heart of what the common lawsuit will be about: who gets to be a citizen in the United States. And that’s actually why I named my organization RICE. I think the emphasis is on the “C” [citizenship], because I do think it is something that brings together immigrant communities, as well as all of the different communities within the United States that have been expanding, over time. Getting to the, legal text I, I think it’s important to remember first that birthright citizenship is bigger than the United States. Worldwide there are at least two ways of becoming a citizen. One is by birthright and the other is by naturalized citizenship. So we’re talking about the birthright half. And the United States is not alone. It’s among countries mostly in the Western hemisphere that have chosen to focus on the “jus soli” version of birthright citizenship, which is “soli” is soil. So it’s birth by touching US soil. And the idea behind that theory was always meant to be an egalitarian one. It’s one that is about the idea that anyone can become a citizen, right? In contrast to the older system that Europe and other countries use, “jus sanguinis,” which is to say that citizenship could only be inherited by blood and heritage. Right? So I think right from the very beginning, it tells us what the text and the history of our 14th amendment citizenship clause intended to accomplish, which was to have an egalitarian spirit, a fresh start, and a continual renewal of what it means to be an American.

[00:07:33] Lisa Holder: Just sort of continuing on the path that Ming just opened up for us, birthright citizenship is very much connected to the African American experience. Particularly because the genesis of that right, really was a reversal of the construct and the regime of the enslavement era, right? Everyone’s aware that during that era, descendants of Africa were not considered humans, much less citizens. And the legal cases that were brought where people try to have their citizenship, and their humanity acknowledged, the courts universally said, no, you are not citizens and Black people have no rights that white people need to respect. Right. And so that was the case, law of the land until, after the Civil War, when we had the 13th, 14th, and 15th, amendments were lifted up and embedded into our laws. You also had the Civil Rights Act of 1866 where that body of law was overturned and enshrined into our constitution was a new law that said that freed people are citizens and they do have rights that everyone needs to respect and rights to equality. You know, we know that there have been problems executing that [laughs] but at least enshrined in our laws and enshrined in our constitution that is where the birthright citizenship, constitutional law came from. It came out of that experience.

[00:09:21] Michael Harris: I just want to add a couple things to that. I mean, it’s very distinguished scholars, they’re hitting it really hard. Two things, universality and so I wanna talk about that first. I got one more coming forward. It’s universal. Birthright citizenship is universal. And what I mean by that is everybody gets to be a citizen who’s born here in the United States. Period. It’s universal, applies to everybody. It doesn’t matter if you’re Black or white or Asian, none of that matters. That’s really important. The other thing is it’s that this criteria is not something that’s subjective, nobody gets to decide. It’s automatic. If you’re born here, you automatically have citizenship. Those two things being automatic and being universal I think are really important. And this, we’ll talk about this more as we go through the conversation, but those two things are what makes birthright citizenship so powerful and why they keep coming to try and take it down because it’s universal so everybody gets it and it’s automatic. Nobody can take it away. So let’s, we’ll I’ll just leave it there for now, but we’ll come back to that.

[00:10:33] Annie Lee: Don, this one’s for you. So the 14th Amendment passes in 1868. Like Lisa said, it’s to reverse Dred Scott, where the Justice Taney wrote that Black people had no rights, which the white man was bound to respect. And so they had to repudiate that through the 14th amendments, they have universal and automatic birthright citizenship with very, very few exceptions for like diplomats kids. Okay, that’s like so, so narrow. So 14th Amendment passes in 1868, but it takes another 30 years for a Chinese American man named Wong Kim Ark to establish that birthright citizenship actually applied to the children of immigrants. So Don, can you tell us Wong Kim Ark’s story, who was he, what happened to him and why did the federal rural government make him this test case?

[00:11:22] Don Tamaki: Just a couple words about context. I mean, one of the remarkable things about the case is it occurred during especially California’s ultra racist, ultra virulent racist period. It’s a contradiction in that regard. So just taking you back to the origins of where this racial pathology comes from, of course we focus, tend to focus on Asian American history, but actually you have to begin with Black history and indigenous history in the country. So in 1619, the first enslaved people were brought to America. And you know, 12 million people were kidnapped off the west coast of Africa. 2 million died during the middle passage. 400,000 were dropped off in America, and the million other millions ended up in the Caribbean, in the Brazil in Haiti, Jamaica, et cetera. And from there, slavery in America continued for 246 years. Two and a half centuries. Civil war happened in 1865. It concluded, and for another 100 years, Jim Crow exclusion infected America. And San Francisco, by the way, was heavily Jim Crow until the 1960s and into the 1970s. The vestiges of that exclusion and discrimination directly are rooted in the Black American experience.

[00:12:52] Michael Harris: And it’s still present here today. That’s why we have a Chinatown. That’s why we have a Japantown in San Francisco because of what Don just did.

[00:13:00] Don Tamaki: Redlining and racial covenants.

[00:13:02] Michael Harris: That’s right.

[00:13:03] Don Tamaki: Exclusions, redevelopment, and so on. So people think of California as being like a enlightened state. Well, California did enter the union in 1850 before the Civil War. 1849 enslavers came to California and they brought their human property with them. So there were probably at least 1500 enslaved people in California. 1865 Civil War ended, but Democrats in 1868 rose to power saying they would vote against any law that would have any equality between , Black Californians, indigenous people, and Chinese folks. And beginning toward late 1800s, that’s when the bulk of Asian American immigration began. First Chinese American coming during the gold rush, and then Japanese Americans have followed and so on. And so, Jim Crow seeped into all that. Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1882. California was known as a strong Klan state by the end of the 1800s with strong Ku Klux Klan chapters in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Oakland, Riverside, San Jose, Anaheim and so on. And so this was a toxic stew that Chinese immigrated into and other groups too. So unsurprisingly, tons of anti-Asian legislation policies, exclusion, follow. So Wong Kim Ark was born in San Francisco in 1873 to Chinese parents who lived and operated a business here. His parents continued to reside and remain in the United States until 1890, and then they departed for China. Probably no doubt because of the inhospitable conditions here. And racial terror was part of that, including the race riots here in Chinatown. And now that I mention it between 1865 to 1935, 352 people were lynched in California. Eight of those were Black Californians, but the rest were indigenous, Chinese, and persons of Mexican descent.

[00:15:18] So that was the environment. Wong Kim Ark continued to live in California into his twenties, reportedly working as a cook in San Francisco. And at the age of 21 he actually made two trips to China. He made a trip to China when he was 17 to visit his parents. Stayed there a year, came back without incident worked, came back here, worked till he was 21, then went back to China to visit his parents at that point. And when he attempted to reenter the United States, he was denied entry and detained with a threat of deportation upon the sole ground that he was not a citizen of the United States. Of course he was born here. So the issue was you know, birthright citizenship was the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment did it apply to Wong Kim Ark. And the interesting thing is about the case is that the court ruled in his favor. All persons born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof. And those words are now, today becomes crucial. And people, I think we on the panel will talk about the implications of that language subject to the jurisdiction thereof. And it established this principle that basically was reaffirmed repeatedly throughout our history for this 100 year plus period. To get to your last question, why did the court do this? I think scholars smarter than me can explain this, but I’ll give you some clues. The court ruled in Wong Kim Ark’s favor despite the virulent context of the era, because that’s what the plain and expansive language of the 14th Amendment says.

[00:17:02] All persons didn’t say formally enslaved, didn’t say Black Americans. It said all persons. That’s what the plain expensive language of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 says: all persons and as Lisa referred to. And the congressional record of the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1862, where legislators are debating these issues they clearly understood, and the record shows that if you include this expansive language, it will apply to groups like Chinese and Asians. And so with that understood it was adopted and ratified in 1868, 14th Amendment, and it was reaffirmed in other legislation like the Immigration Act of 1940. They just assumed that if you’re born in this country, you’re an American citizen. It was applied throughout the turbulent history involving my community, Japanese Americans. As you recall, 1942, 125,000 people were rounded up and put in concentration camps and the first generation were ineligible to become citizens. They were given identity cards marking them as enemy aliens. 2000 people died in those camps, but people were born in those camps. And the government, despite the fact that we were at war with Japan, understood that if you’re born in this country. And even if your parents were quote, “enemy aliens,” you’re gonna be classified as American citizens. And maybe lastly, the court ruled in favor of Wong Kim Ark because the 14th Amendment was trying to repair the harm done by Dred Scott v. Sandford, which was to provide human beings who’ve been here for two and a half centuries, the right to become an American citizen with all the benefits that go with that, like voting for instance. And recognizing that if you don’t have those rights, you don’t have anything, you are you, you’re nothing. And for Japanese Americans, for instance, who are born in those camps, can you imagine if they didn’t have birthright citizenship? They’re not part of Japan. They’re not part of America. Where are they? They’re stateless. They have no home. They have no rights. And so it would create another underclass of people who have no rights for, and for which the 14th Amendment was trying to remedy which was you know, to provide a pathway. And so I guess you could say that’s why, that’s the incongruity of why Wong Kim Ark came out that way. In my opinion.

[00:19:59] Ming Chen: Maybe what I could add to the conversation is not just sort of who is included but who is not included. Because I think that’s actually a much more small and specific group than the current dialogue would have you believe. So in the very language of the 14th Amendment, this idea of subject to the jurisdiction thereof. It refers to three exceptions and only three exceptions. One is for Native Americans, and that is because as of 1924 there wasn’t a need to grant citizenship through the 14th Amendment because there were other provisions to grant citizenship to Native Americans. The second exception is for those who are children of diplomats. And the reason for that is because they have citizenship in their home country and their parents are only on a temporary post to the United States with the understanding that they’re here in the United States in service to their home country. And I think that actually points to the limited meaning of the third exception, which is the one that I have to say, I have a really hard time understanding is part of the debate now. Because I think up until now, you know, this debate renews itself a couple times every year. Every time there’s a new census, every time there’s redistricting on all of the anniversaries, and usually the fight is about subject to the jurisdiction thereof. But the third exception, which has come into the dialogue, is about the language of accepting children of invading armies. And that is one that I have not thought we needed to argue about. It really becomes a touch point as Don mentions this history with internment and the children of a group of enemy aliens. I think that gives it a whole new historical read.

[00:21:48] But one of the reasons that this argument, I guess I should first explain the argument because it may not be obvious to you as it was not obvious to me the first time I heard it, which was about 18 months ago. And so the argument is that the children of invading armies referring mostly to the children of immigrants coming across the US Mexico border should not be considered birthright citizens. So that’s kind of what the public debate, what the insinuation is behind some of the current effort to chip away at Wong Kim Ark through the executive order. There have been many efforts to chip away through legislation. I don’t know how frequently it’s been attempted through constitutional amendment, which is what it would actually require. That’s a very, very high bar that’s almost never met. I think most people haven’t really made a serious, serious effort there. But what I think is kind of stunning to me in the sort of momentum behind the current moment is that Judge Ho who himself is a birthright citizen. Took up this language and this argument about the children of invading armies after previously saying that he agreed with this interpretation that children of undocumented immigrants, children of temporary visas all of these different legal statuses in addition to all of these racial groups, would immediately be citizens. And the argument he tried to make is that it wouldn’t include the group at the border because historically it wouldn’t have included enemy aliens or invading aliens either. And I think that what is so surprising to me is that a) that there is meant to be this historical analog between what would’ve been happening at the time of the Civil War and what is happening now at the US Mexico border. We are not having a civil war. We are not in active military conflict at the US Mexico border. I’ll set aside other US military conflicts and how we wanna use that terminology. But I think that’s really important because I, I feel like it’s almost a trick, you know, to turn what is a media frame that’s meant to be like clickbait, right? The idea that there is an invasion at the border, right. That we’re being flooded with people who don’t belong here. And to try to turn that into a legal argument saying this is actually an invading army and that takes this group outside of the 14th Amendment.

[00:24:19] Michael Harris: That’s, I was gonna ask you a follow up question because we haven’t been invaded that many times by armies I mean, maybe the War for Independence when the British sent ships over and took over Boston for a while. I could see how if they had kids, I mean, that’s a stretch, that might apply to this. But I think the rhetorical device, they’re touching on where they speak of people who come into the United States without proper documentation as an invading army or an invading whatever. They use that terminology quite often. Is that enough to bootstrap into this exception?

[00:24:59] Ming Chen: I, not to me, [audience and panel laughter] I think not to serious legal scholars and jurists. I mean, and you know, I’m not trying to be inflammatory by saying that. I think there are a lot of people who are pretty far away from me on a legal and political spectrum who would also say that this argument is pretty unprecedented. To try to say that that would be enough to bootstrap it into the actual text of the constitution or the spirit of Wong Kim Ark. So I think it’s going really, really far. And I think too far, and I hope that if that becomes a line of discussion during the oral argument, that it would be cut off pretty quickly.

[00:25:38] Annie Lee: Well, let me punt it to Lisa then. If it’s pretty clear based on the text, based on the legislative history, based on, just everything in the last 125 years that has said very clearly that birthright citizenship is universal and automatic. Why is Trump doing this? Like, what is being attempted legally, but also politically? And Lisa, you take a stab at this first and then others can chime in.

[00:26:04] Lisa Holder: Yeah. You know, why is Trump doing this? [audience and panel laughter] There’s many layers, you know? And it, this is a strategic play and you have to sort of think about this in a layered way. Like there’s a long term strategic play. There’s a short term strategic play, there’s a procedural strategic play, but that sort of bootstraps and brings in a much more moral and narrative rhetorical play. Procedural play. The short term strategic play has a lot to do with the midterm elections. Right, right. And also limiting people of color’s ability to pick people who look like them as their representatives. Right. Because all of a sudden you’re not only putting into question people’s citizenship based on birth and turning this into a lineage thing where you have to bring me proof that your parents or their parents were born here or something like that, or were naturalized. So you’re starting to put into question in a practical measure, people’s access to the franchise, people’s access to the voting booth. Right. And you’re also starting to create a chain effect. So people are actually afraid to go to the voting booth. Right. And then you couple that with moving the migration of ICE. Now ICE is in the airports. Guaranteed by November, ICE will be in the voting booth, right? So you create this chilling effect. And then in terms of having representation that looks like you having people of color represent you in the US House of Representatives, your state representative. When you put birthright into question in this way, you’re also gonna be able to challenge people who are running for office, people of color, running for office and say, well, you can’t really run because you need to prove. And that is a rhetorical issue that we have seen being used already with both Harris and Obama, you know, because they were brown, Black people. Their birthright citizenship was, they were manipulating that rhetoric and that narrative.

[00:28:25] So this is not coming out of the outta left field. It’s iterative and it’s a it’s rhetoric that has been, you know, percolating up for a long time. This is just a culminating moment. The long term strategy is really about white supremacy. We know that, you know, all of the social science shows that in 20 years this, the country will be a majority minority country, right? And people of color will have a huge amount of power in terms of, you know, in terms of the vote, right? Because of that, switch to majority minority and white people will be in the minority. And so, this is about, from a long term perspective, ensuring that certain people maintain their power as an electoral block. Right? So that’s sort of like a long term electoral politics play. And then finally, the procedural issues are what’s outstanding, okay? As Ming mentioned, if you are going to use procedure to overturn a constitutional amendment that is a, an astronomical feat to accomplish, right? Because you need two thirds of all of the representatives in Congress, and then on top of that, you need 75% of the states to ratify that process. So overturning a constitutional amendment is virtually impossible. But what we have here is trying to do the same thing. One person trying to do the same thing using the powers of the executive office. It is unprecedented. It is absurd. It has no legal viability, but it is a political moment where this man sees an opportunity because of the bias that we see in the judicial branch, in the court system. And that is being leveraged for the executive to to do something that is unprecedented and that is actually procedurally impossible, right? For one person by just signing a document all of a sudden disenfranchising 13 million people. That is not the democratic process. It’s quite the opposite.

[00:30:38] Michael Harris: I just wanted to add to that. The Senate and the House of Representatives are both very narrowly controlled by the Republicans, and so it’s really important to Trump to maintain that control. He’ll only be able to continue doing these outrageous things by virtue of getting a rubber stamp from Congress. And so either house going the other way would put a stop sign in front of him and make it much more difficult for him to do all those things. All this money he’s spending he would not be able to do that if Congress was actually active in doing it’s job. Cause under the Constitution, spending is supposed to be controlled by the Congress, not by the Executive. So everything’s upside down, but that’s only working because Congress is allowing him to do that and not trying to stop him. If the Democrats are able to take over the Senate or the House where there’s only a three or four seat margin right now that would make it much, much, much harder for him to pull these things off. And so anything he can do to get an advantage in that way I think is also part of what they’re trying to do and trying to pull off.

[00:31:48] Ming Chen: One other thought, and you know, I’m trying very hard to not be professorly in the sense of using jargon or highfalutin terms, but I’m just curious, has anyone in this room heard the term perpetual foreigner before? A few of you have, I mean, I think it’s really pertinent here. The first time I heard of this idea was when I started to learn from other Asian American law professors when I was still in college. I think that idea was that for certain groups of people, including Asian Americans, it doesn’t matter whether you are actually a citizen by law or how many generations you’ve lived in the United States, right? So I’m a birthright citizen like Wong Kim Ark, but I think the first time I heard about it was, you know, this idea of Asian Americans not being able to be Americans socially in terms of belonging regardless of whether they are themselves, the child of citizens or immigrants and if they’re the sixth generation children, right. I remember taking a Chinatown tour with David and is that where we are about six generations out for a lot of the descendants. So even if you were in the sixth generation that if you look Asian, that you will still be seen as being foreign. And so I think that idea has animated a lot of the work that I do. Like why it is that a lot of the work I do on race centers Asian Americans and then a lot of the work I do on immigrants centers, the naturalization process.

[00:33:16] But I think it’s also important to recognize the breadth of that idea. Again, this idea of trying to blur the line between actuality, like what is real and what sounds like a fancy argument. Right. And I think what Lisa said, you know, her brief reference to the challenges against Barack Obama and Kamala Harris when they were running for a highest offices. You know, I think again, there’s not, it’s not a coincidence. I mean, to me that’s the perpetual foreigner at work again. Because it’s the idea that not only that Black people cannot possibly be the leader of this country, right? Sort of the, the figurehead of this country, but that for Barack Obama, the child of one international student on a lawful, probably f visa at the time, or that for Kamala Harris, the child of two lawful immigrants, that they cannot be birthright citizens that would be eligible for president. So there’s a lot of commonality in that argument. And I think, you know, people forget, I think people assume that if you’re talking about groups who are not Asian right, or who are not Latinx, that we’re not talking about foreignness, we’re only talking about race. And certainly we are talking about race, but we’re not talking about it exclusively.

[00:34:33] Michael Harris: And then in addition to all of that is just the straight up racism of it. And that’s supported by this notion of white supremacy. And what I mean when I say that, Lisa has touched on this already, is that there is a hierarchy of racial groups. And we’re not all created equal. There’s a hierarchy and the top group is, you already know, I don’t have to say it, is the whites [laughter], and then below that are the other people like us who look different. And the reason there’s, they’re able to put these groups out there and get people to buy into that belief system is because we look different. And so this is why the perpetual thing is perpetual it’s because we still look different. And that is a key part of the white supremacy. They still want to buy into this notion that white people are superior. And the only way they can make that work is by saying that people who look different are inferior.

[00:35:34] Annie Lee: I love this discussion because it’s so real. And what you are saying essentially is you’re talking about belonging and you’re talking about power. Like who gets to belong in America? And then that is necessarily connected with who has power in America, who deserves to have power in America. But I know that we all belong in America and that we have power. So I wanna shift this conversation now to what can we do? And so beyond the courts everybody tune in next week. But beyond the courts, what is the role of community organizing, state and local policy advocacy? Public education in defending birthright citizenship and fighting against the attack on birthright citizenship is one sliver of everything that he has done. So many executive orders that came out on day one. So how, how do we, as everyday people fight white supremacy? What can we do when they are redistricting and trying to take away our franchise right before the midterm elections? What do we do when they’re using courts that they’ve already packed with their federal society judges? And so what, what can an average regular person do? And Don I’m gonna go to you first.

[00:36:47] Don Tamaki: Let me say something in a very far less intellectual way than my colleagues here. This is a very old playbook. The playbook of demagoguery is very old. He said the old is humanity. And there are three elements to that playbook. One, appeal to prejudice, however, that is, race, skin, color, religion, whatever. Secondly, fear monger and scapegoat. And thirdly trafficking, conspiracy theories, fake news, false information, erasure of history. That’s how you control the culture. And it worked in 1619. It worked in 1882. It worked in Germany in 1933. And it works today, you know, 2016, 2020. You know, when Chinese were blamed as spreaders of the Chinese virus. Asian Americans, when Mexicans were characterized as drug dealers and rapists when Jews and immigrants were portrayed as replacing good white people. This dehumanizing [of] people where one more Black man killed during an encounter with law enforcement barely evokes a shrug because it is so normal. It is so normal, folks, and so it works. And so, you have the candidate Trump running for office and say to a national audience that, to the people of Springfield, Ohio, that Haitian immigrants are eating your dogs and cats and getting away with it. Or the images of the Obamas transposed on cartoon apes. And this is really Jim Crow stuff. This is Antebellum stuff. And it’s a recycling of the same playbook. And so the first part of organizing is being aware of what’s going on. This is not a new thing. Okay, it’s just a racial pathology that churns in one form or another, and it has an origin. It predates us. And so I, I think part of that is educating ourselves how everything is interconnected.

[00:38:58] And since we’re talking about Black Asian solidarity, I’ll just say a couple things. I mean, the civil rights movement had three triumphs that we all should remember. The Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of ’65 began the dismantling of Jim Crow, which I, as I said, was a hundred year phenomenon following the end of the Civil War and the Immigration of Act of 1965. The third act. It ended as, you know, racist quotas. It prioritized family ties and skills and it greatly increased Asian immigration. As a result, the majority of AAPIs today are post 1965 Americans whose very presence here was made possible by the Black Civil Rights Movement. How many of us know that, you know? I mean, everybody focuses not everybody, but people tend to focus on their own peculiar predicament as if it’s unique to our own situation. And in fact, it’s all, quite connected. So I think part of this organizing process is realizing, you know, it’s Martin Luther King, the oft quoted statement where he says we may have come on different ships, but we’re in the same boat now. And especially in connection with what’s happening and, and you’re seeing it in different parts of the country where sure, immigrants are being targeted in Minneapolis, but then you have thousands of Minneapolitans that, you know, ordinary people, business folks, teachers, laborers, protesting in Sub-Zero weather against what, what happened? And, and yeah. You know what, can we do protest work? I hope everybody’s out there on March 28th, you know, this Saturday on the No Kings March.

[00:40:51] Michael Harris: Not just protesting, running them out of town.

[00:40:55] Don Tamaki: Well, [audience and panel laughter] Gregory Bovino, Gregory Bovino, who was the leading charge? Gone. Kristi Noem. Gone.

[00:41:03] Michael Harris: Yes, right.

[00:41:05] Don Tamaki: 2000 ICE agents in Minneapolis reduced to much smaller numbers. That’s right. Their plans then launching Ohio trashed. You know, so that’s why you, so boycotts, boycotts work. Ask Elon Musk. Ask Target. Local elections, Michael mentioned the midterm elections. It is if we don’t, if Democrats don’t get back the House, the country’s cooked. So, I mean, everybody should be involved one way or the other in that. Raising money, you know, we are part of a, a fundraising group called CAPA21, and there are other groups out there, but those are, those things are crucial to funnel money toward swing elections and critical races. The education part I think is essential. If you consider the velocity change in terms of the civil rights movement, Japanese American redress and reparations was a 20 year movement. And it was full of education of the public. Civil rights movement, same thing. The philosophy of change on marriage equality or LGBTQ rights and all those things happened because they became normal. They were, they started out as ideas that people thought were preposterous. You know, that’ll never change.

[00:42:26] Michael Harris: Right.

[00:42:26] Don Tamaki: And Jim Crow will never end. And San Francisco can segregate Asian Americans within Japantown and Chinatown. It, it will never change. But that idea of change, which were thought preposterous happens. But it requires civic engagement. So just examples.

[00:42:46] Michael Harris: I want to amplify two things that Don said. One is there will be a march this Saturday a No Kings March, and it’s really, really important for people to show up for that march. ‘Cause the one thing that’s devastating to a government is to have its people out there visible on the streets saying what the government is doing is wrong. Because you can spin certain things, you can lie about certain things, but bodies in the streets you can’t lie about. It’s there and it’s real. So that’s one thing that’s really important, really. But I would encourage all of you if you can, if you are able, please join us and come out on Saturday. The other thing I want to add to the Don’s excellent list is there’s a few groups in the Bay Area and in San Francisco that does postcards. And their strategy is they identify particular jurisdictions where it’s a very close race and it’ll be pivotal if a Democrat can win over a Republican, say in a House or maybe even like the Texas Senator race. That one’s probably gonna be very close too. And they send postcards to people encouraging them to vote. Don’t sit it out. And those extra votes can be the difference between winning and losing. And that might flip the House might flip the Senate. So those are some other additional items.

[00:44:11] Ming Chen: I think at a much more basic level, it’s just like telling, telling your story, telling the story of America. Because, you know, when we talk about all these rhetorical tricks, I mean, I think what it means is that that narrative is gaining a lot of power. And so I think you have to reclaim the narrative, right? You have to tell the counter story which happens to be the real story of what’s happening. This is something that I actually haven’t talked about this publicly, but my daughter she’s like on the brink of being 13, not yet a teenager. It made me really sad that she came back from her well-funded, pretty liberal public school about a month ago crying because she said that in her Mandarin Chinese class, there was a child who was saying that Asian people eat dogs. And then writing swastikas on the chalkboard and singing Nazi songs making fun of the women in the room, I guess they’re girls in the room saying that they’re all lesbian without knowing anything about them. And it just made me really profoundly sad because I’d like to think that a lot of ignorant narrative is because people don’t know better, right? I mean, as an educator, I hope that education will simply solve it. And it made me really sad to hear that again. You know, I’m, I’m on the brink of Berkeley. I basically live in Berkeley, right? So one of the most densely populated PhD overeducated people in America. And to be three generations in and to still have this story being told in the classrooms was really distressing to me. And even more distressing that it isn’t just the like Chinese people that eat dogs as being a stereotype from those who are not educated, but it’s something she might have heard on TV from the highest offices in the land, right? Something she might’ve heard the vice president say, for example. And so I just think it’s so important and doesn’t take education, doesn’t take a law degree, right? To be able to tell that story. And so I was really, really proud that my daughter you know, did file a complaint with the principal that she came home and told us about it. And you know, her two parents who are civil rights and immigration lawyers, [laughter] but also that she’s been like talking to her classmates right, about the fact that that’s not true. That’s not right. She’s been comforting the other kids in the classroom who don’t share the same background that she does. And I feel like that kind of work is just as important.

[00:46:45] Michael Harris: I want to add something to that. We have to take note of the fact that a lot of these types of comments really vile, racist things and not just about Asians, it’s also some of the things about Black people, young people are saying. Part of it is because it’s very easy to say things like that online because you can do it anonymously and not have to, you know, stand up and back up your comments, so to speak. And another part of it is our culture. We gotta be real about this. When I was growing up, I’m sure you were told this too, as the country became more educated and got more exposed to people of color and more people got higher education, all this crazy stereotypical racist stuff would go away because people would know better. That’s what they told me the whole time I was growing up and now we know that’s not true [audience laughter] because the reverse is happening. It’s growing because some people are making money by putting stuff like that online and selling t-shirts and hats and stuff like that. Or starting, you know, whatever they start. There’s this guy, Alex Jones, who made millions of dollars doing that kind of stuff. So some people are making money off of it. Other people are just buying into that ideological tip and are using that to gain power and influence and clicks. So we just have to be aware that this is a current going on in our society right now. And it’s happening and it’s growing and we, we need to be aware of it and start thinking about ways how we can put it to rest. Cause it’s, it’s happening.

[00:48:30] Annie Lee: Thank you so much. I do wanna give our audience some time to ask any questions that you all might have. So if you have a burning question to ask our illustrious panel now is your opportunity.

[00:48:45] Audience member: I was wondering how does this with, with the rhetoric of, of Washington pushing for IDs for voting how will that impact on people’s presence at the voting booths and validating their ability to vote?

[00:49:04] Michael Harris: I think what you’re referring to is the Safeguard [SAVE America] Act is now in Congress, and if it’s passed and signed by the president, then it’ll become law. And what it will require is anyone who wants to vote will have to have a photo ID. And even if you registered, you have to prove you’re a citizen. So those two steps are, I think, designed to suppress the vote of people of color. I mean, I think it’s very straightforward. This has been what Republicans have been trying to do for ever since the case that Don just mentioned passed and they were able to start doing this stuff. And I agree. It goes back to the notion that in 20 years, America’s going to be a majority minority country. There’s gonna be more people of color than white people. And I think that I’m just gonna come out and say that freaks them out. It really freaks ’em out. I think a lot of them have lived their whole lifetime where only white people were in charge, running stuff, and they can envision a future not too far off where that might not be the case anymore. And that’s scary. It shouldn’t be. I mean, we’re all the same. It’s all gonna be, you know, and there’s Black Republicans and Black Democrats and there’s Asian Republican. I don’t know why they’re so freaked out about it, but but they are freaked out about it. And a lot of this is to suppress the vote so that they can continue to stay in power and will not have to give up the power that they would lose otherwise.

[00:50:35] Lisa Holder: Yeah, I mean, it’s always been about limiting the franchise, right? And since the time that it expanded beyond white males with property, there’s been a battle to keep it as limited as possible. You know? And when you think about what happened after the Civil War, after the 13th, 14th, and particularly the 15th Amendment were passed and African Americans were allowed to vote, you had a 100 year backlash. Where 10,000 African Americans were murdered and lynched. Most of those were people who were trying to mobilize their communities to enter into the franchise and exercise the right to vote. That’s the retrenchment that we’re seeing being reiterated right now. Right. And we know that during that period, there were all kinds of hoops that, for instance, Black people had to jump through because of those Black Codes where you had to, for instance, prove that you can read this particular statement. Right. Or, you know, just like all kinds of random hoops that you had to jump through. And so when we see these barriers, these gatekeepers, like, oh, you have to have an ID. If this birthright citizenship goes through, no, no, no you can’t bring in your birth certificate. You know, we need some proof of your parent, of your lineage. Right. And it’s really is combined with that narrative and that rhetorical aspect, that Ming was articulating because although in fact we are America. America looks like us, Americans look like us. The alternative narrative where white predominance is the point is always going to be pushed where no, no, no, we are different. We are not normal and we are not America. And so that’s, that’s the narrative piece that all of this leads to. And that’s why this story of storytelling that Ming talked about is so important. And also it is so important to just constantly push back to resist, to vote. To run for office when you look like an American.

[00:52:45] Audience member: My question is, if the executive order passes, what can we do to resist? Because one of the things is it will also disenfranchise women because it’s about proving your identity that matches your birth certificate. Right. And there are really so many people that will not have their names to match their identities. And so what can people do to, to, to counter if that should happen?

[00:53:11] Don Tamaki: The legislative answer? Well, there’ll be court challenges, no doubt

[00:53:15] Audience member: but, but before, let’s say the midterm election.

[00:53:18] Michael Harris: Call your representative, fax ’em, email ’em, get your friends to do that, because it’s pending in Congress right now.

[00:53:25] Don Tamaki: But elections have consequences is the point. And it people who says, well my vote doesn’t count, doesn’t matter. Everybody, both parties the same. Elections have consequences. I, I guess the only other thing to remember, I keep, you know, repeating this, the solidarity and connectedness bears repeating because the story keeps recycling. It’s very recycled story about voter suppression. You know, the Civil War ended in 1865, 12 years of reconstruction. Lincoln is assassinated shortly after during the beginning of reconstruction and thereafter, you know, a deal was struck in the contested election of 1876. Federal troops are withdrawn from the south and then the voter suppression comes in literacy tests, poll taxes.

[00:54:19] Annie Lee: Mm-hmm. Grandfather clauses.

[00:54:21] Don Tamaki: Yeah. I mean in Virginia. During reconstruction 140,000 formerly enslaved people registered to vote after the collapse of reconstruction it was reduced to 21,000. California had you know, poll taxes. Other states had literacy tests and whatever, and it’s now repeating because folks don’t like the results of an election. The answer is not to, you know, broaden your net and appeal to upfront (?) policy. The answer is to suppress voting, stop people from voting. And so again, it’s a matter of awareness I think we have to realize the game plan. And it makes it so important about who is voted into the dials and levers of the controls that run the country. So that’s critical.

[00:55:13] Ming Chen: I can jump onto that. go vote. But I think it’s also, you know, it’s early enough to say, get your documents in order. Right? Go and be ready to vote in a way that won’t draw question, right? So you don’t have to wait for the lawsuit. And I will say for that, as someone who spends most of my days working with 20 something year olds who move all over the country, a lot of it is about sort of get your ducks in order, right? So if you don’t have a driver’s license with the current address that matches your name, you can fix that now. So many people who don’t have a normal ID because they never learn how to drive, right? So make sure you go get that document. You mentioned marriage, Anna, and I remember I moved to New York at the same time that I got married and trying to get my name on the document when I was it, you know, it’s like this endless loop, right? Because you’re getting a new ID because of your address. If you don’t have that, you can’t get your social security card, if you don’t have that you can’t validate the marriage certificate, right? There’s just this endless loop. And you have to get all of that in order, right? So I think maybe there needs to be two parts to our voter mobilization this year, right? It’s get yourself ready, sort of like arm up and then vote so that your vote will actually end up counting.

[00:56:33] Miko Lee: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.

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APEX Express – 3.26.26 – A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter
26 maalis· KPFA - APEX Express
APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
APEX Express and Lavender Phoenix are both members of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality (AACRE). AACRE focuses on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice.
Important Links:

Lavender Phoenix
Dragon Fruit Project – Podcast Series

Transcript:
Miata Tan: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome. You are tuning into Apex Express, a weekly radio show, uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host Miata Tan. Tonight we have two incredible guests. From Lavender Phoenix. They’re a Bay area based organization supporting queer and transgender Asian American and Pacific Islander [00:01:00] youth.
I really enjoyed my conversations with both of these folks, and I’m sure you will as well. This episode is a rerun from December, 2025 when Lavender Phoenix was at a transitional moment in their leadership.
Tonight, you’ll hear from the outgoing executive director as she passes the torch along to the new director stepping into the role, uh, we’re bringing this episode back in honor of the transgender day of visibility. That’s just around the corner Tuesday, March 31st. It felt like the perfect time to revisit these conversations.
A quick note throughout both interviews, you’ll hear us refer to the organization as both Lavender Phoenix and its very cute nickname. LavNix. Without further ado, here’s my conversation with Yuan Wang, the outgoing executive director of Lavender Phoenix.

Miata Tan: Yuan, thank you so much for joining us today.
, Would you be able to share a little bit about yourself with [00:02:00] our listeners to get started?
Yuan Wang: Yeah. I’m so excited to be here.
, My name is Huan. My pronouns are she, and they, and I’m actually the outgoing executive director of Lavender Phoenix. You’re catching me on my second to last week in this role after about four years as the executive director, and more years on our staff team as an organizer and also as a part of our youth summer organizer program.
So this is a really exciting and special time and I’m really excited to reflect about it with you.
Miata Tan: Yay. I’m so excited. I’d love for you to give us an overview of Lavender Phoenix and the work that y’all do, what communities you support,
Yuan Wang: Lavender Phoenix was founded about 21 years ago, and we are based in the Bay Area. We’re a grassroots organization that builds the power of transgender non-binary and queer Asian and Pacific Islander communities right here in the Bay. Right now our work focuses on three major [00:03:00] Areas.
The first is around fighting for true community safety. There are so, so many ways that queer, trans, and more broadly, uh, working class communities in the San Francisco Bay Area. Are needing ways to keep ourselves and each other safe, that don’t rely on things like policing, that don’t rely on things like incarceration that are actually taking people out of our communities and making us less safe.
The second big pillar of our work is around healing justice. We know that a lot of folks in our community. Struggle with violence, struggle with trauma, struggle with isolation, and that a lot of the systems that exist aren’t actually really designed for queer and trans API people, to thrive and feel connected.
And so, we’ve been leading programs and campaigns around healing justice. And the last thing is we’re trying to build a really principled, high integrity leaderful movement. So we do a ton of base building work, which just [00:04:00] means that, everyday queer and trans API people in our community can come to Lavender Phoenix, who want to be involved in organizing and political work.
And we train folks to become organizers.
Miata Tan: And you yourself came into Lavender Phoenix through one of those programs, is that right?
Yuan Wang: Yeah. Um, that is so true. I came into Lavender Phoenix about seven or eight years ago through the Summer organizer program, which is kind of our flagship youth organizing fellowship.
And I was super lucky to be a part of that.
Miata Tan: How has that felt coming into Lavender Phoenix? Like as a participant of one of those programs? Yeah. And now, uh, over the past few years, being able to lead the organization?
Yuan Wang: Yeah. It feels like the most incredible gift. I share this a lot, but you know, when I had come into Lavender Phoenix through the summer organizer program, I had already had some experience, doing [00:05:00] organizing work, you know, doing door knocking, working on campaigns.
but I really wanted to be in a space where I felt like I could be all of myself, and that included being trans, you know, that included. Being in a really vulnerable part of my gender transition journey and wanting to feel like I was around people all the time who maybe were in a similar journey or could understand that in a really intimate way.
I really found that at Lavender Phoenix. It was pretty unbelievable, to be honest. I remember, uh, the first day that I walked in. There were members and volunteers leading a two hour long political education that was just about the histories of trans and non-binary people in different Asian and Pacific Islander communities.
So just being in a room full of people who shared my identities and where, where we were prioritizing these histories was really, really exciting. I think for the years it’s just been so amazing to see Lavender Phoenix grow. The time when I joined, we had a totally different name. It was [00:06:00] API equality, Northern California, or we called ourselves a pink and we were really focused on projects like the Dragon Fruit Project, which was a, a series of more than a hundred oral histories that we did with elders and other members members of our community.
Things like the Trans Justice Initiative, which were our first efforts at really building a community that was trans centered and that was, was building trans leaders. And now those things are so deeply integrated into our work that they’ve allowed us to be focused on some more, I think what we call like issue based work, and that that is that community safety, healing justice work.
That I mentioned earlier. So, it’s just been amazing to witness multiple generations of the organization that has shaped me so much as a person.
Miata Tan: That’s really nice. Seven, eight years that, that whole
Yuan Wang: Yeah, I joined in 2018 in June, so you can maybe do, I think that’s about seven and a half years. Yeah.
I’m bad at [00:07:00] math though.
Miata Tan: Me too. So you’ve been executive director since late 2021 then? This, these few years since then we’ve seen a lot of shifts and changes in our I guess global political culture and the way conversations around racial solidarity issues mm-hmm.
as you’ve navigated being executive director, what, what has changed in your approach maybe from 2021 till this year? 2025?
Yuan Wang: Wow, that’s such an interesting question. You’re so right to say that. I think for anyone who’s listening, I, I imagine this resonates that the last four years have been. Really a period of extraordinary violence and brutality and grief in our world.
And that’s definitely true for a lot of folks in Lavender Phoenix. You mentioned that we’ve been living through, [00:08:00] you know, continued pandemic that our government is providing so little support and recognition for. We’ve seen multiple uprisings, uh, in the movement for black lives to defend, you know, and, and bring dignity to the lives of people who were killed and are police.
And obviously we’re still facing this immense genocide in Gaza and Palestine bombings that continue. So I think if there’s, if there’s anything that I could say to your question about how my approach has changed. I would say that we as a whole, as an organization have had to continue to grow stronger and stronger in balancing our long-term vision.
Intensifying urgent needs of right now and balancing doing the work that it takes to defend our people and try to change institutions with the incredible and at times overwhelming grief of living in this moment. Yeah, you know, in this [00:09:00] past year, um. Have been members of our community and, and our larger community who have passed away.
Uh, I’m sure there are some listeners who know, Alice Wong, Patty by architects of the disability justice movement that Lavender Phoenix has learned so much from who have passed away. And we’ve had to balance, you know. Like one week there’s threats that the National Guard and that ICE will be deployed and even higher numbers to San Francisco and, and across the Bay Area.
And oh my gosh, so many of us are sitting with an incredible personal grief that we’re trying to hold too. So, I think that’s been one of the biggest challenges of the last few years is, is finding that balance. Yeah. I can say that some of the things that I feel proudest of are, you know, just as an example, in our healing justice work, over the past four years, our members have been architecting a, a trans, API peer counseling program.
And, through that program they’ve been able to provide, [00:10:00] first of all, train up. So many trans API, people as skilled, as attentive, as loving peer counselors who are then able to provide that. Free, uh, accessible peer mental health support to other people who need it. So I think that’s just one example.
Something that gives me a lot of hope is seeing the way that our members are still finding ways to defend and love and support each other even in a time of really immense grief.
Miata Tan: That’s really beautiful and it’s important that you are listening to your community members at this time. How do you, this is kind of specific, but how do you all gather together?
Yeah,
Yuan Wang: yeah. You know, I feel really lucky ’cause I think for the last 10 years we, Lavender Phoenix as a whole, even before I was a part of it, has been building towards a model of really collective governance. Um, and, and I don’t wanna make it sound like it.
You know, it’s perfect. It’s very challenging. It’s very hard. But I think like our comrades at Movement generation often say, if we’re not prepared to govern, then [00:11:00] we’re not prepared to win. And we try to take that, that practice really seriously here. So, you know, I think that, that getting together. That making decisions with each other, that making sure that members and staff are both included.
That happens at like a really high strategic level. You know, the three pillars of our theory of change that I mentioned earlier, those were all set through a year of strategy retreats between our staff, but also a. 10 to 15 of our most experienced and most involved members who are at that decision making.
The same comes for our name, uh, Lavender Phoenix. You know, it was, it was really our core committee, our, our member leaders who helped decide on that name. And then we invited some of our elders to speak about what it meant for them, for us to choose Lavender Phoenix, because it was an homage to the work so many of our elders did in the eighties and nineties.
It also looks like the day-to-day, because a lot of our work happens through specific committees, whether it’s our community safety committee or healing justice committee. Um, and those are all [00:12:00] committees where there’s one staff person, but it’s really a room of 5, 10, 15 members who are leading community safety trainings.
The peer counseling program, training new members through our rise up onboarding, um, and setting new goals, new strategic targets every single year. So, it’s always in progress. We’re in fact right now working on some challenges and getting better at it, but we’re really trying to practice what governing and self-determination together looks like right in our own organization.
Miata Tan: And a lot of these people are volunteers too.
Yuan Wang: yeah, so when I joined the organization there were two staff, two mighty staff people at the time. We’ve grown to nine full-time staff people, but most of our organization is volunteers. Yeah. And we call those folks members, you know, committed volunteers who are participants in one of our committees or projects.
Um, and I believe right now there’s about 80 members in Lavender Phoenix.
Miata Tan: Wow. It’s wonderful to hear so much growth has happened [00:13:00] in, um, this period that you’ve been with Lavender Phoenix. The idea of empowering youth, I think is core to a lot of Lavender Phoenix’s work. What has that looked like specifically in the last few years, especially this year?
Yuan Wang: Yeah, the
Miata Tan: challenges.
Yuan Wang: That’s a great question. I think, um, you know, one of those ways is, is really specifically targeted towards young people, right? It’s the summer organizer program, which I went through many years ago, and our previous executive director was also an alumnus of the summer organizer program, but that’s, you know, an eight to 10 week fellowship.
It’s paid, it’s designed specifically for young trans and queer API people who are working class, who grew up in the Bay to organize with us and, and really. Hopefully be empowered with tools that they’ll use for the next decade or for the rest of their life. But I’ll also say, you know, you mentioned that Lavender Phoenix has grown so much in the last few years, and that is such a [00:14:00] credit to folks who were here 10 years ago, even 15 years ago, you know, because, the intergenerational parts of our work started years before I was involved. You know, I mentioned earlier the Dragon Fruit Project where we were able to connect so, so many elders in our community with a lot of younger folks in our community who were craving relationships and conversations and like, what happened in the eighties?
What happened in the nineties, what did it feel like? Why are you still organizing? Why does this matter to you? And we’re actually able to have those conversations with folks in, in our community who. Have lived and fought and organized for decades already. So I think that was like one early way we started to establish that like intergenerational in our work.
And a lot of those folks have stayed on as volunteers, as supporters, some as members, and as donors or advisors. So I feel really lucky that we’re still benefiting in terms of building the leadership of young people, but [00:15:00] also intergenerational reality overall because of work that folks did 10 years ago.
Miata Tan: That’s really important. Having those, those ties that go back. Queer history is so rich, especially in the, in the Bay Area. And there’s a lot to honor.
With the intersection between queer and immigrant histories here, I wonder if you have anything that comes to mind.
Yuan Wang: I think that queer and immigrant histories intersect in the lives of so many of our, our members and, and the people who are inspiration too. You know, I’m not sure that. I think a lot of listeners may not know that Lavender Phoenix is as a name. It’s an homage to Lavender, Godzilla, and Phoenix Rising, which were two of the first publications.
They were newsletters launched back in the eighties by groups of. Uh, trans and queer API, folks who are now elders [00:16:00] and who were looking around, you know, learning from the Black Power movement, learning from solidarity movements in the Bay Area, and saying we really need to create spaces where.
Trans and queer Asian Pacific Islanders can talk about our journeys of migration, our family’s journeys as refugees, our experiences with war, and then also about love and joy and finding friendship and putting out advertisements so that people could get together for potlucks. So yeah, I think, um, there’s so much about the intersection of immigrant and queer and trans journeys that have been.
Just even at the root of how we name ourselves and how we think of ourselves as an or as an organization today.
Miata Tan: I think today, more than ever all of these communities feel a little more than a little under threat,
Yuan Wang: we could say so much about that. I think one thing that we’re really paying attention to is, uh, we’re seeing in different communities across the country, the ways in which the [00:17:00] right wing is. Uh, kind of wielding the idea of trans people, uh,
the perceived threat that trans people pose.
As a wedge issue to try to build more more power, more influence, more connections in immigrant communities and in the process like really invisiblizing or really amplifying the harm that immigrant, trans and queer. People experience every single day. So I think something that we’re thinking about on the horizon, you know, whether it’s, uh, partnering with organizations in California or in the Bay Area or across the country who are doing that really critical base building work, power building work in immigrant communities is trying to ask, you know.
How do we actually proactively as progressives, as people on the left, how do we proactively have conversations with immigrant communities about trans and queer issues, about the, uh, incredibly overlapping needs that trans and queer people in all people who are marginalized [00:18:00] right now have in these political conditions?
Um, how can we be proactive about those combinations and making those connections so that, we can kind of inoculate folks against the way that the right wing is targeting trans people, is fear mongering about trans people and trying to make inroads in immigrant communities. Yeah. That’s one thing on our radar for the future.
Miata Tan: That’s so important. Kind of, breaking down those, those stereotypes
Yuan Wang: totally breaking down stereotypes, breaking down misinformation. And yeah, it reminds me of a few years ago Lavender Phoenix held a few conversations with a partner organization of ours where there were some younger folks from our organization who are talking to some older immigrant members of that organization and we’re just connecting about, the sacred importance of, parenting trans and queer kids right now of, you know, and, and just having conversations that actually humanize all of us rather than buying into narratives and stories [00:19:00] that that dehumanize and, and that flatten us. Yeah. Um, so that we can defend ourselves from the way that the right wing is trying to hurt immigrant communities and trans and queer communities.
Miata Tan: the youth that you work directly with each week. Is there anything as you reflect back on your, your time with Laxs that really stand out, things that folks have said or led conversations in?
Yuan Wang: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I, I could, I could celebrate things that I’ve witnessed every single year.
You know, we the young people in the summer organizer program experience so, so much in, in many ways it’s kind of like the faucets, like all the way on, you know, like there’s, they’re learning so much about skills and values and projects and, you know, just as some examples this last summer, we had a team of summer organizers who helped lead an event that was about COVID safety and disability justice, where people [00:20:00] actually got together to build DIY air filters that could hopefully, you know, make them feel safer in their own homes.
And, um, in previous years we’ve had summer organizers work on the peer counseling program. There’s so much that folks have done. I think what I actually hear year after year is oftentimes the thing that sticks out the most, it isn’t necessarily just the project, it isn’t necessarily like the hard skill training.
It’s people saying every single week during our team check-ins, someone shared an affirmation with me. I felt more seen. It’s people saying, you know, I didn’t expect that we were gonna do a three hour training. That was just about why it’s so important to ask for help and why that can be so, so difficult for, um, for queer and trans young folks.
It’s folks saying, you know, even speaking for myself actually. I remember being a summer organizer and one of, uh, [00:21:00] my close friends now one of our elders, Vince spoke on a panel for us and, talked about what it was like to be young during the height of the hiv aids crisis, you know, when the government was neglecting to care for folks and so many members of our community were dying without care, were, were passing away without support.
And all of the lessons that Vince took from that time holds now, decades later that still make him feel more hopeful, more committed, more full as a person. Um, that meant so much to me to hear when I was 21 and, still feeling really scared and really lonely, about the future. So I think it’s those, I, I wouldn’t even call them like softer skills, but the incredible st.
Sturdiness and resilience that building long-term relationships creates that seeing people who show you a potential path, if it’s been hard to imagine the future. And that building the [00:22:00] skills that make relationships more resilient. I feel like it’s those things that always stand out the most to a lot of our young people.
And then to me, I see them grow in it and be challenged by those things every single year. I feel really good. ’cause I know that at the end of the summer organizer program, there’s a group of young, queer and trans API rising leaders who are gonna bring that level of rigorous kindness, attentive attentiveness to emotions, um, of vulnerability that creates more honesty and interdependence.
They’re gonna be taking that to an another organization, to another environment, to another year in our movement. That makes me feel really happy and hopeful.
Miata Tan: Yes. Community.
Yuan Wang: Yeah.
Miata Tan: . Looking towards that bright future that you, you shared just now Tina Shelf is coming on as the executive director.
What are your hopes for 2026
Yuan Wang: [00:23:00] yeah. You know, I’m, I’m so excited that we’re welcoming Tina and we’re really lucky because Tina joined us in August of this year. So we’ve had a good, like five months to overlap with each other and to really, um, for all of us, not just me, but our staff, our members, to really welcome and support Tina in onboarding to the role.
I feel incredibly excited for Lavender Phoenix’s future. I think that in this next year, on one hand, our Care Knock Cops campaign, which has been a huge focus of the organization where uh, we’ve been rallying other organizations and people across San Francisco to fight to direct funding from policing to.
To protect funding that’s being threatened every year for housing, for healthcare, for human services that people really need. I think we’re gonna see that campaign grow and there are so many members and staff who are rigorously working on that every single day. And on the other hand, I think that this is a time for Lavender Phoenix to really sturdy [00:24:00] itself.
We are in we’re approaching, the next stage of an authoritarian era that we’ve been getting ready for many years and is in other ways as so many folks are saying new and unprecedented. So I think, um, a lot of our work in this next year is actually making sure that our members’ relationships to each other are stronger, making sure that, responsibility, is shared in, in, in greater ways that encourage more and more leadership and growth throughout our membership so that we are more resilient and less res reliant on smaller and smaller groups of people. I think you’re gonna see our program and campaign work continue to be impactful. And I’m really hopeful that when we talk again, maybe in two years, three years, five years, we’re gonna be looking at an organization that’s even more resilient and even more connected internally.
Miata Tan: It’s really important that y’all are thinking so long term, I guess, and have been preparing for this moment in many ways.
On a personal [00:25:00] note, as you are coming to an end as executive director, what’s what’s next for you? I’d love to know.
Yuan Wang: Yeah, that’s such a sweet question. I’m going to, I’m gonna rest for a little bit. Yeah. I haven’t taken a sustained break from organizing since I was 18 or so. So it’s been a while and I’m really looking forward to some rest and reflection.
I think from there. I’m gonna figure out, what makes sense for me in terms of being involved with movement and I’m, I’m certain that one of those things will be staying involved. Lavender Phoenix as a member. Really excited to keep supporting our campaign work. Really excited to keep supporting the organization as a whole just from a role that I’ve never had as a volunteer member.
So, I’m just psyched for that and I can’t wait to be a part of Lavender Phoenix’s future in this different way.
Miata Tan: Have fun. You’ll be like on the other side almost. Yeah,
Yuan Wang: totally. Totally. And, and getting to see and support our incredible staff team just in a different way.
Miata Tan: One final [00:26:00] question As you are sort of moving into this next stage, and this idea of community and base building being so incredibly important to your work and time with Lavender Phoenix, is there anything you’d like to say, I guess for someone who might be considering. Joining in some way or Yeah. Where they could get involved, but they’re not, not quite sure.
Yuan Wang: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think that if you are a queer and trans, API person who is looking for community, um, looking to channel what you care about into action, looking to be with other people who care about you Lavender Phoenix is here. And I think that there is no more critical time. Than the one we’re in to get activated and to try to organize.
‘Cause our world really needs us right now. The world needs all of us and it also really needs the [00:27:00] wisdom, the experience, and the love of queer and trans people. So, I will be rejoining our membership at some point and I’d really like to meet you and I hope that we get to, to grow in this work and to, um, to fight for our freedom together.
Miata Tan: Thank you so much. We, this was a really lovely conversation.
Yuan Wang: Yeah, thank you so much And also welcome Tina. Good luck.

Miata Tan: that was my conversation with Yuan Wang, the outgoing executive director at Lavender Phoenix. You may have heard Yuan mention the Dragon Fruit Project. This is an intergenerational oral storytelling podcast series and online project that explores the stories of queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islanders around love, activism and community.
For links to the Dragon Fruit Project and everything else from tonight’s show, please head to our show notes at [00:28:00] kpfa.org/program/apex-express. Now here’s a little taste of the Dragon Fruit Project.

Amy Sueyoshi: Hi, my name’s Amy Swei. I’m the Dean of the College of Ethnic Studies at San Francisco State University. I am a historian by training, um, and my specialties are in Asian American history and history of sexuality. I use she or they pronouns. I usually do turn of the century history, which is 1890s to 1920, and I decided to start, you know, doing some oral histories in the early two thousands.
Um, at the time, history wasn’t super sexy. Very few nonprofits were engaging in historical projects. Very few artists were also using history as a site of inspiration. So I was really skeptical about whether people would wanna join me, but, you know, people were excited to do it, which I was surprised about.
API queer [00:29:00] history is also clearly on the margins in both the history field as well as in Asian American studies. And so, you know, I could scream it from the rooftop, tell lots of people, and most people wouldn’t care. They’d be like, yeah. And so there’s a way in which I think that what’s more important to me is that for the few people that it did matter.
It, it really mattered. But generally speaking, I feel like the world doesn’t care, which is even more reason why we should care, right? If, if we don’t take care of ourselves, then. Other people aren’t gonna do it for us. Being a historian, I know that a lot of queer history generally gets lost because queer genders, queer sexualities are stigmatized.
And if you’re Asian, you probably don’t wanna talk about it even more a, because you’ve probably been socialized to not talk about sexuality. Because of your ethnicity. And then B, if you were assigned female at birth and you know, socialized as a woman, you probably [00:30:00] wouldn’t think your life was valuable enough to save anything about it.
Right. In terms of historical knowledge. You don’t have to be the George Washington of gay people. You can just be a regular person. And so I wanted, um, the older Asian lesbians who are still around to save their stuff, to be able to know how to save it, not throw it in the garbage, so that when they passed or when they were ready to give up their materials, we could deposit.
At the Historical society and some younger dyke or young, younger queer pup could come along and do research on them.
,

Miata Tan: That was a short snippet from the Dragon Fruit Project. You can learn more about this intergenerational storytelling series and lavender Phoenix who produces it at our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/apex-express. Now after a short break, we are sitting down with the new executive director of [00:31:00] Lavender Phoenix.
Stay with us.
?
Miata Tan: [00:32:00] [00:33:00] That was, remember me by Tao. You are tuned into Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host, Miata Tan, and tonight we are joining the Lavender Phoenix team at a transitional [00:34:00] point in the organization’s history.
Our next guest is Tina Sho Baha, the incoming director of this local organization supporting queer and trans Asian American and Pacific Islander Youth.
As a reminder, throughout this conversation, you’ll hear us referring to the org as both Lavender, Phoenix, and Laxs Nicks.

Miata Tan: Tina.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Hi Miata.
Miata Tan: How you going today?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: I’m doing well, thank you. How are you?
Miata Tan: Yeah, not so bad. Just excited to speak with you. tell me more about yourself what’s bringing you into Lavender Phoenix.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Sure, sure. Well I am the incoming executive director of Lavender Phoenix. Prior to this, I was working at the California Domestic Workers Coalition and had also worked at the Filipino Community Center and, um, have done some grassroots organizing, building, working class [00:35:00] power, um, over the last 20 years, of my time in the Bay Area.
And I’ve been alongside Lavender Phoenix as an organization that I’ve admired for a long time. Um, and now at the beginning of this year, I was I had the opportunity to apply for this executive director position and talked with un, um, had a series of conversations with UN about, um, what this role looks like and I got really excited about being a part of this organization.
Miata Tan: That’s super cool. So you, you, you weren’t quite in the space with Lavender Phoenix, but moving alongside them through your work, like what were what were the organizations that you were part of when you were, were working in tandem, I guess.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well the organization that I feel like is most, most closely, relates with Lavender. Phoenix is, um, Gabriela, which is a Filipino organization. It’s a Filipino organization that’s a part of a national democratic movement of the Philippines. [00:36:00] And we advance national democracy in the Philippines. And, liberation for our people and our homeland.
Sovereignty for our homeland. And Gabriela here in the US does organizing with other multi-sectoral organizations, including like migrant organizations, like Ante and youth organizations like Naan and we organize in diaspora. And the reason for that is because many of our families actually leave the Philippines due to, um, corrupt government governance, um, also like foreign domination and exploitation and plunder of our resources.
And so many of us actually have to leave our countries to, to survive. And so we’re still very connected. Gabriela is still very connected to, um, the movement in the Philippines. And yeah, so we’re advancing liberation for our people and have been alongside Lavender Phoenix for many [00:37:00] years. And here we are.
Miata Tan: That’s beautiful. I love hearing about, all of these partnerships and, and colLavoration works that happen in the San Francisco Bay Area and, and beyond as well. it sounds like you’re speaking from a personal place when you talk about, um, a lot of these immigrant communities. Could you speak more to your family background and what brings you into this?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: The, the fight for immigrant justice? So I was born in the Philippines and um, I spent my childhood and adolescent since the, in the South Bay of LA and then came here to the Bay Area in the year 2000. Flashing back to when my parents immigrated here, my dad’s family first came to the US um, by way of the Bay Area in the late sixties and early seventies.
My dad actually was a few years after he had arrived, was uh, drafted into the military so that they can send him [00:38:00] to Vietnam, but instead of going to Vietnam, he took the test to go into the Air Force and traveled everywhere in the Air Force and ended up in the Philippines and met my, met my mom there.
And so. That became like they got married and they had me, I was born in the Philippines. I have a younger sibling. And, um, and I think, um, growing up in, in a working class immigrant neighborhood black and brown neighborhood, um, it was always important to me to like find solidarity between.
Between communities. I actually grew up in a neighborhood that didn’t have a lot of Filipinos in it, but I, I felt that solidarity knowing that we were an immigrant family, immigrant, working class family. And when I was in college, when I went to college up in, in Berkeley, um, that was the time when the war on Iraq was waged by the US.
I got [00:39:00] really I got really curious and interested in understanding why war happens and during that time I, I feel like I, I studied a lot in like ethnic studies classes, Asian American studies classes and also, got involved in like off campus organizing and um, during that time it was with the Filipinos for Global Justice Not War Coalition.
I would mobilize in the streets, in the anti-war movement during that time. Um, and from there I met a lot of the folks in the national democratic movement of the Philippines and eventually joined an organization which is now known as Gabriela. And so. That was my first political home that allowed me to understand my family’s experience as immigrants and why it’s important to, to advance our rights and defend our, defend our people.
And [00:40:00] also with what’s happening now with the escalated violence on our communities it. It’s our duty to help people understand that immigrants are not criminals and our people work really hard to, to provide for our families and that it’s our human right to be able to work and live in dignity, uh, just like anyone else.
Miata Tan: You are speaking to something really powerful there. The different communities that you’ve been involved with, within the Filipino diaspora, but who are some other immigrant folks that you feel like have really helped shape your political awakening and, and coming into this space, and also how that leads into your work with Lav Nix today?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: When I was working at the Filipino community center that gave me a, gave me a chance to learn to work with other organizations that were also advancing, like workers’ rights and immigrant [00:41:00] rights.
Many centers in San Francisco that, um, work with immigrant workers who. Wouldn’t typically like fall into the category of union unionized workers. They were like workers who are work in the domestic work industry who are caregivers, house cleaners and also we worked with organizations that also have organized restaurant workers, hotel workers.
In like non-union, in a non-union setting. And so to me I in integrating in community like that, it helped me really understand that there were many workers who were experiencing exploitation at really high levels. And that reregulate like regulation of, um, Lavor laws and things like that, it’s like really.
Unregulated industries that really set up immigrant workers in, in really poor working conditions. [00:42:00] Sometimes abusive conditions and also experiencing wage theft. And for me, that really moved me and in my work with Gabriela and the community and the Filipino Community Center, we were able to work with, um.
Teachers who actually were trafficked from the Philippines. These teachers actually, they did everything right to try to get to the, the US to get teaching jobs. And then they ended up really paying exorbitant amount of, of money to like just get processed and make it to the us.
To only find themselves in no teaching jobs and then also working domestic work jobs just to like survive. And so during that time, it really like raised my consciousness to understand that there was something bigger that wa that was happening. The, the export of our people and exploitation of our people was happening, not just at a small scale, but I learned over [00:43:00] time that.
Thousands of Filipinos actually leave the Philippines every day just to find work and send money back to their families. And to me that just was like throughout my time being an activist and organizer it was important to me to like continue to, to like advance poor, working class power. And that I see that as a through line between many communities.
And I know that like with my work in Lav Nix that the folks who experience it the most and who are most impacted by right-wing attacks and authoritarianism are people who are at the fringes. And born working class trans and queer people. Within our sector. So yeah. Being rooted in this, in this principle of advancing foreign working class power is really core [00:44:00] to my to my values in any work that I do.
Miata Tan: What are some other key issue Areas you see that are facing this community and especially queer folks within Asian American communities today?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: The administration that we’re under right now works really hard to drive wedges between. All of us and, um, sewing division is one of the t tactics to continue to hoard power. And with Lavender Phoenix being a trans and queer API organization that’s building power, it’s important for us to understand that solidarity is a thing that that’s gonna strengthen us.
That that trans and queer folks are used as wedges in, in conservative thinking. I’m not saying that like it’s just conservatives, but there’s conservative thinking in many of our cultures to think that trans and queer folks are not, [00:45:00] are not human, and that we deserve less and we don’t deserve to be recognized as.
As fully human and deserve to live dignified lives in our full selves. I also know that locally in San Francisco, the API community is used as a wedge to be pitted against other communities. Let’s say the black commun the black community. And, um, it’s important for us as an organization to recognize that that we, we can position ourselves to like wield more solidarity and be in solidarity with, with communities that are experiencing the impacts of a system that continues to exploit our people and continues to view our people as not fully deserving.
Not fully human and that our people [00:46:00] deserve to be detained, abducted, and deported. That our people deserve to not be taken care of and resourced and not have our basic needs like housing and food and healthcare and it impacts all of us. And so, I see our responsibility as Lavender Phoenix, and, and in the other organizing spaces that I’m a part of that it, it is our responsibility to expose that we are not each other’s enemies.
Hmm. And that we are stronger in fighting for our needs and our dignity together.
Miata Tan: Community. Community and strength. I’m thinking about what you said in terms of this, the API solidarity alongside [00:47:00] queer folks, alongside black and brown folks. Do you have a, perhaps like a nice memory of that, that coming together?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: So one of the most consistent, things that I would go to, that’s, that Lavender Phoenix would, would lead year after year in the last 10 years is Trans March. And my partner and I always make sure that we mobilize out there and be with Laxs. And it’s important to us to be out there.
in more recent trans marches. Just with a lot of the escalation of violence in Gaza and ongoing genocide and also just the escalated attacks on on immigrants and increased right and increased ice raids. And and also the, we can’t forget the police, the Police killings of black people. And I feel like at [00:48:00] Trans March with Lavender Phoenix, it’s also a way for us to come together and you know, put those messages out there and show that we are standing with all these different communities that are fighting, repression, And it’s always so joyful at Trans March too.
We’re like chanting and we’re holding up our signs. We’re also out there with or you know, people, individuals, and organizations that might not be politically aligned with us, but that’s also a chance for us to be in community and, and show demonstrate this solidarity between communities.
Miata Tan: It’s so beautiful to see.
It’s, it’s just like what a colorful event in so many ways. Uh, as you now step into the director role at Lav Nix, Lavender Phoenix, what are you most excited about? What is 2026 gonna look like for you?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: I am most [00:49:00] excited about integrating into this organization fully as the executive director and I feel so grateful that this organization is trusting me to lead alongside them. I’ve had the chance to have conversations with lots of conversations since, since my time onboarding in August through our meetings and also like strategy sessions where I’ve been able to connect with staff and members and understand what they care about, how they’re thinking about.
Our our strategy, how we can make our strategy sharper and more coordinated, um, so that we can show up in, in a more unified way, um, not just as an organization, but, but as a part of a larger movement ecosystem that we’re a part of and that we’re in solidarity with other organizations in. So I am looking forward to like really embodying that.
it takes a lot [00:50:00] of trust for an organization to be like, look, you, you weren’t one of our members. You weren’t a part of our staff prior to this, but we are trusting you because we’ve been in community and relationship with you and we have seen you. And so I just feel really grateful for that.
Miata Tan: For an organization like Lav Nix, which with such a rich history in, in the Bay Area is there anything from. That history that you are now taking into 2026 with you?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Yeah, I mean, I think in seeing how Lavender Phoenix has transformed over the last 10 years is really not being afraid to transform. Not being afraid to step even more fully into our power. The organization is really well positioned to yeah, well positioned to build power in, in a [00:51:00] larger community. And so I, I feel like I’ve seen that transformation and I get to also, I get to also continue that legacy after UN and also the previous leaders before that and previous members and staff, um, we stand on the, on their shoulders.
I stand on their shoulders. it’s so beautiful, like such a nice image. Everyone together, yeah, no, totally. I mean, just in the last few weeks, I, I’ve connected with the three executive directors before me.
And so when I say. I stand on their shoulders and like I’m a part of this lineage I still have access to. And then I’ve also been able to connect with, you know with a movement elder just last week where I was like, wow, you know, I get to be a part of this because I’m now the executive director of this organization.
Like, I also get to inherit. Those connections and [00:52:00] I get to inherit the work that has been done up to this point. And I feel really grateful and fortunate to be inheriting that and now being asked to take care of it so. and I know I’m not alone.
I think that’s what people keep saying. It’s like, you’re not, you know, you’re not alone. Right. I’m like, yeah. I keep telling myself that. It’s true. It’s true, it’s true.
Miata Tan: Latinx has a strong core team and a whole range of volunteers that also aid in, in, in your work, and I’m sure everyone will, everyone will be there to
make sure that you don’t like the, the, the shoulders are stable that you’re standing on.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Totally, totally. I mean, even the conversations that I’ve been a part of, I’m like, I’m the newest one here. Like, I wanna hear from you, like, what, how are you thinking about this? There is so much desire to see change and be a part of it. And also so [00:53:00] much brilliance like and experience to being a part of this organization. So yeah, absolutely. I’m not alone.
Miata Tan: One final question as with youth really being at the center of, of Lav Nix’s work. Is there something about that that you’re excited just, just to get into next year and, and thinking about those, those young people today that are you know, maybe not quite sure what’s going on, the world looks a little scary.
Like what, what can, what are you excited about in terms of helping those, those folks?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well, for a long time I, I worked with youth years ago before I before I found myself in like workers justice and workers’ rights building working class power. I also worked with working class youth at one point, and I, I was one of those youth like 20 years ago.
And so, I know what my [00:54:00] energy was like during that time. I also know how I also remember how idealistic I was and I remember how bright-eyed it was. And like really just there wasn’t openness to learn and understand how I could also be an agent of change and that I didn’t have to do that alone.
That I could be a part of something bigger than myself. And so so yeah, I think that like wielding the power of the youth in our communities and the different sectors is I think in a lot of ways they’re the ones leaving us, they know, they know what issues speak to, to them.
This is also the world they’re inheriting. they have the energy to be able to like and lived experience to be able to like, see through change in their lifetime. And you know, I’m, I’m older than them. I’m older than a lot of them, but, I also can remember, like I, I can look back to that time and I know, I know that I had the energy to be able [00:55:00] to like, you know, organize and build movement and, and really see myself as, as a, as someone who could be a part of that.
My first week here in, in August I actually was able to, to meet the, the, um, summer organizer, the summer organizers from our program. And I was, it just warms my heart because I remember being that young and I remember, remember being that like determined to like figure out like, what is my place in, in organizing spaces.
So they were the ones who really like, radically welcomed me at first. You know, like I came into the office and like we were co-working and they were the ones who radically welcomed me and like showed me how they show up in, in, um, Lav Nix Spaces. I learned from them how to fundraise, like how Lavender Phoenix does it, how we fundraise.
And [00:56:00] um, one of them fundraised me and I was like, I was like, how can I say no? Like they yeah. That we need that type of energy to keep it fresh.
Miata Tan: something about that that, um. It is exciting to think about when thinking about the future. Thank you so much for joining us, Tina. This was such a beautiful conversation. I’m so excited for all of your work.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Thank you so much.
Miata Tan: That was Tina Sho Baha, the new executive director at Lavender Phoenix. You can learn more about the organization and their fantastic work at lavenderphoenix.org. Tonight’s show was a rerun and originally aired on December 25th, 2025. Tina is now several months into her new role, and we are super excited for what comes next.
If these conversations tonight moved you, please check out our show notes [00:57:00] at kpfa.org/program/apex-express.
We’ve added some links to previous Apex Express episodes featuring the Lavender Phoenix crew, as well as their Dragon Fruit Project, which is an intergenerational podcast series that you don’t wanna miss. Make sure to check it out.

A huge thank you to all of our listeners out there. And in the words of Keiko Fukuda, a Japanese American judoka and Bay Area legend, “Be Strong, Be Gentle, Be Beautiful.”
A little reminder for these trying times.
APEX Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.
Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan.
Get some rest y’all.

The post APEX Express – 3.26.26 – A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 3.19.26- The Power of Tenderness
19 maalis· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight on APEX Express Host Miko Lee speaks with Restorative Justice Educator and Author Tatiana Chaterji about her work on the power of tenderness. Tune in!

Tatiana Chaterji’s website
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:44] Miko Lee: Good evening. I’m your host Miko Lee, and tonight we are speaking with Tatiana Chaterji about Restorative Justice. Restorative justice is a movement and a set of practices that stands as an alternative to our current punitive justice system. It focuses on people and repairing harm by engaging all the impacted folks working together to repair that harm. RJ is built off of ancient indigenous practices from cultures around the globe, including Native American, African, first Nation, Canadian, and many others. So join us with Tatiana Chaterji.

[00:01:23] Tati, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:01:28] Tatiana Chaterji: Thank you for the question, Miko. The first thing that comes to mind, my people are the people we’re, we’re, we’re coming up on the cusp of a possible teacher strike, and I’m thinking about workers and the labor, movement and comrades in my life from doing, work as a classified school worker for about a decade.

[00:01:49] Then my people are also from my homelands. The two that I feel very close to me are in Finland, from my mom’s side, and then in Bengal, both India, west Bengal, and Bangladesh. And my people are also those who are facing facing the worst moments of their life, either from causing harm or experiencing harm as a survivor of violence.

[00:02:11] I think about this a lot and I think about also the smaller conflicts and tensions and issues that bubble up all the time. So my people are those that are not afraid to make it better, you know, to make it right. And I carry, oh gosh, what legacy do I. I wanna say first kind of the legacy of the Oakland RJ movement that really nurtured me and the youth that I’ve encountered in schools and in detention on the streets in the community.
[00:02:41] Youth who are young adults and becoming bigger, older adults and, and, and also elders. To me. So sort of that’s whose legacy I carry in shaping the. Society that we all deserve.

[00:02:55] Miko Lee: Thank you for answering with such a rich, well thought out response that’s very expansive and worldly. I appreciate that. Can you share what brought you to this work personally?

[00:03:07] Tatiana Chaterji: Sure. As a young activist involved in Insight Women of Color against Violence and aware of the work of Critical Resistance, and I had a pretty clear politics of abolition, but I didn’t. Really think that it impacted me as personally as it did when I was in my early twenties and I suffered a brain injury from a vehicular assault, a hit and run that may have been gang affiliated or, a case of mistaken identity. My recovery is, is, is complicated. My journey through various kinds of disabilities has shaped me. But I think the way that I was treated by the police and by the justice quote unquote justice system, which I now call the criminal legal system, it because there was no justice.

[00:03:52] I sort of don’t believe that justice is served in the ways that survivors need. yeah, I really, I got very close to the heart of what an RJ process can do and what RJ really is. I got introduced to Sonya Shah and the work of Suha bga and I was able to do a surrogate victim offender dialogue and then later to facilitate these processes where people are kind of meeting at the, at the hardest point of their lives and connecting across immense suffering and layers of systemic and interpersonal internalized oppression.

[00:04:26] Just so much stuff and what happens when you can cross over into a shared humanity and recognition. It’s just, it’s just so profound and and from that space of healing and, and, and compassion, I’ve been able to think about. Other ways that RJ can look and have sort of been an advan, what is it evangelical for it?

[00:04:51] You know, I think that because we don’t see these options, I, I, because I knew people, I was able to connect in this way and I would just shout out David uim, who’s the one who told me that even if I didn’t know the person who harmed me, that this was possible. People so often give up, they’re just like, well, I have to feel this way.

[00:05:10] I have to just deal with it. Swallow the injustice and the lack of recognition. Just sort of keep going. Grit your teeth. I think we don’t have enough knowledge of what’s possible and so we harden ourselves My name is Tatiana Chaterji. I’ll be reading my flash essay split. Before I didn’t know what a traumatic brain injury was. My tongue had not curled the letters TBI together shaping the sound of nightmare. I had not heard the clipping of staples from a scalp fused after it was split to release pressure.

[00:05:46] They said, removing the right cranial bone flap, not conceived of the skull as giving pressure, a living organism of its own, a piece of its stored in a freezer for months after being removed in the dead of night. Attempted murder, vehicular assault under a blanket of fog. This city, these hidden stars.

[00:06:07] Never concerned myself with science or medicine or the mechanics of survival, the filaments of me unbreaking encased as they were in a thick clay from where I stood young and forceful, standing or walking or sitting, because I wanted to willful, bold, joy, stubborn, had not needed to wait for the all clear discharge orders that released me to a world of indifference.

[00:06:33] Before I didn’t know life without its sense. Its tastes that the olfactory nerve stretches behind the eyes, vulnerable to bruising or severing from an impact to the head that you won’t know until you know an extended game of dice that ultimately rolled no permanent damage. You will smell again, but with loss.

[00:06:52] Unfamiliar associating Jasmine for coffee, revulsion to orange comfort and cinnamon. Before I had not been the target of any physical or lasting harm. Had not thought that victim or survivor would ever describe me. Had not organized a vigil for rape survivors as I did while unconscious dreaming, waking up to pelvic bruises, believing I was one of them.

[00:07:19] The brain injury bisected my life until I realized it was one in a string of paper cuts that stop hurting eventually, that there will be other moments that change me, that there are many ways to slice a life when I pull her to my chest. A sticky, slimy worm, six pounds, four ounces, eyes closed, mulling to find her place on my chest for the first time.

[00:07:44] My chin against the wet mess of hair. When he carries me over the threshold into our suite at the Wise Owl Hotel in South Colta, garlands of sweet Jasmine adorn my hair and my henna painted arms drip with gold. When the drama therapist asks the group to simulate the attack rushing towards me so I can do what I wished I had done, run away.

[00:08:11] It returns my power and I own what’s mine Fingertips. Throbbing with the life they can grasp. Sirens through the dark machines. Beeping into a week of unconsciousness, awakening to wonder and madness. One toe at suicide’s brink, recovering in this outpatient patient treatment program for depression and anxiety.

[00:08:31] All of it here. The breath and meat and sky. When I walked through the gates of San Quentin State Prison for the first time, shuttering at the cold, heavy clank permanence at my back. The man in front of me breathes nervously in his starched blue uniform, gently meeting my eyes to say, I’ve never met a real victim before.

[00:08:53] Thank you for coming. He is, of course, a crime victim, but also an offender, and there isn’t room to be both in this place. I am here for the penultimate session of Victim Offender Education and Dialogue where the men have met for over a year now, each week to learn empathy and build rigorous self-reflection muscles to take accountability.

[00:09:18] They are ready to present their crime impact statements and to listen to a panel of survivors. None of us directly harmed or were harmed by each other. We are all surrogates. This then is the greatest innocence, the widest Gulf I’ve crossed before, sitting with men who have killed, who have touched this threshold, this fever wound of life and God and pain.

[00:09:44] My eyes were full of dew. I was blind to the logics of violence, the way the toxins seep under and you merge with its poison that you become dehumanized. Brutal. A mentality of war. The hurt echoing at a different pitch. Copper pebbles in an empty cave. Before I sat alone in confusion, untangling the threads of my trauma with what I knew from a peaceful life of privilege.

[00:10:12] In that first circle at San Quentin and every subsequent circle, I uncloak this ache, hear from men who explain the numbness, danger in every corner under the shadow of each day. I let them hold my story, share its load. Listen to theirs, my witness body lifting off bits of the weight they carry. I welcome insights previously unimaginable.

[00:10:39] Receive apologies I didn’t know I needed. It’s as if the lights switch on all at once, a brightness. The dialogue melts the isolation of my suffering. Its icy blanket of shame, allowing me to see what had been there all along, not monster. A human did this to me, broken alone, and suddenly I have permission to heal for 10 days.

[00:11:07] Baby birds remain in the nest. Their mother has built. I spent 10 days in a coma from within the protective circle. My family had drawn around me for the entirety of my two plus decades on earth. Infant wind, bone creature before flight 24 years collapsed to 10 days in the coma nest so I could bear free the weight of the universe.

[00:11:33] Soaring my mind at ease. A fresh page appears the dotted line of life’s flashpoints waiting to blink on forward cuts and selves.

[00:11:46] Miko Lee: I just finished your new book. Wow.

[00:11:48] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh you did?

[00:11:48] Miko Lee: Yes I did.

[00:11:49] Tatiana Chaterji: Yay!

[00:11:50] Miko Lee: Yes I did. Everyday Restorative justice, moving from crisis Response to positive school culture. Big title, weighty title. It’s so much, it’s so rich, it’s so beautiful. It has so many different elements for, um, for a classroom teacher, an educator, a community organizer. And it has not just like lesson plans, but amazing quotes and rubrics.

[00:12:15] Even rubrics. ’cause you could tell your classroom teacher with real experiences, which is like the land I live in. Stories and Spanish translations. So tell us how this amazing book, what, I mean you’ve been doing this work for years, but what inspired you to collect this into book form?

[00:12:33] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, thank you Miko for reading it. That is the biggest gift ever. I want to shout out Heather Manchester Anita Vva and Evelyn Aquino. They wrote a book a few years ago on inter international Intergenerational Restorative Justice and really youth and adult partnership. And in that book, they featured the work that I had been doing at Fremont here in East Oakland.

[00:12:57] And I think that was the first time when I was like, wait, maybe we are really doing something special that deserves to be in a book. You know, like, what is this secret sauce? Or what is the, what is the combination? Things that we’re doing that’s really working that we want to share out with the world.

[00:13:14] And and so, yeah, so fast forward a little bit of time. There’s, I, I’ve actually now left the district. I’ve had more time to reflect on what that time was and what it was we were doing. And I had this invitation with Teachers College Press to, uh, to put it forth and really make it legible for classroom teachers who might not have always felt like they were invited into this work for a variety of reasons.

[00:13:41] Miko Lee: Well, one, I think that’s fascinating that it took somebody else writing about your work for you to say, Ooh, look at this. I think that’s fascinating. Uh, more to that later, but I’m wondering I think many classroom teachers already do this whole, oh, let’s come up with our rules for the classroom. It’s like respect.

[00:13:58] I mean, it’s a lot of the principles around restorative justice, but actually implementing a whole system feels. Overwhelming or like you were just saying, they don’t have access to it, so how does this book give them access?

[00:14:14] Tatiana Chaterji: Uh, well, and I, I wanna clarify from the top that I’m actually, I am, I have served in the role of a classroom teacher, but that’s not my training or background. And that I’ve, I’ve actually seen this schism or this kind of divisiveness between people who are in youth organizing, where I’ve, that’s my background. Youth organ organizing, youth leadership development, sort of student and youth services. Vis-a-vis classroom educators. And I was straddling both of these roles as a classified employee doing restorative justice alongside case managers, the school security officers who are now called culture keepers in Oakland Unified, and and administrators as well.

[00:14:56] And I was partnering with teachers to figure out classroom systems. I ended up co-teaching and then solo teaching a class within the Mandela academy for Law and Public Service. That continued until when that school, when that mini school closed down. But I learned so much from classroom teachers. The educators that I was working with are amazing and they are the original. RJ people, I would say, but they, they are not positioned that way and they aren’t often recognized or given the time and space to do circle and to do that culture building in their classrooms because they have any number of deliverables and test you know, requirements that they are responsible for.

[00:15:37] And so what I really saw was a kind of a sidelining of their work into the teaching and then the culture work happening in other pockets and primarily held by people who are not in front of the kids day after day dealing with. Management and communication and all the things that happen when you’re bell to bell responsible for so many different combinations of kids and communicating with their parents and making sure everything gets synced up. So I think I really wanted to honor their labor and and open the door. And, and, and I’m sure others have done it as well, but I just felt it wasn’t open enough. It wasn’t a, a sort of a strong enough like, here, you already do this. Why? What if you could take it a step further or here are some things that are legible for the systems and the, the tasks that you are responsible for, that you have to be responsible for. Let me create it in your, in your language. And really with great humility from my own position is, has not having the same training.

[00:16:41] Miko Lee: Thank you for pointing that out. And those titles of, you know, the classroom educator, the community organizers, the youth development person, people often like separate them, but really it’s about the creating the best culture for the students is what we’re talking about.

[00:16:56] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. We should be on the same page.

[00:16:58] Miko Lee: Yeah.

[00:16:58] Tatiana Chaterji: And I think very often we are pit against each other and there’s sort of, you know, being in this violent, extractive society that that’s sort of what happens. But it shouldn’t happen, in fact. Right. And we should be more hand in hand working together when there’s been this smooth handoff between different roles on a campus. That’s when it’s just the best. And I want to, I hope to see that more.

[00:17:19] Miko Lee: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the story behind the, forward to the book? You write in a dedication to a young woman, and can you share a little bit about that story?

[00:17:30] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh gosh. Shamara Young her memory lives within me and with so many people in the Fremont community in Oakland. She was a student leader who was in the very first iteration of this RJ class, this restorative justice class that I taught for ninth graders, which really is the inspiration for this book. And she was killed shortly after we had just come back from distance learning from the pandemic, and it really shocked our, our entire community, an incident of road rage, and just the excess of the excess availability of weapons, you know, and, and firearms.

[00:18:07] So just wanted to honor her legacy, honor honor other students and young people who’ve been stolen from us, from violence here at home, and also in any number of imperial projects that, that. US government is responsible for just really seeing the interconnection between people’s struggle and the loss of life is tragic all the time. And the loss of a student is a particular pain that I just, I wanted to name because it is, it is so tender and other educators, youth organizers, parents, people who’ve known young ones to, to die in that way. It’s just something, a wound that stays and definitely motivates me to, to do this work.

[00:18:49] My name is Tatiana Chaterji. I’ll be reading my Vielle, a poem called Losing Shamara. When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs losing shamara. The adults are loud in their grief. Students’ eyes down to forget their own stolen ones. Circles the forced ceremony of blood on false tongues, homage to her memory, her story without relief.

[00:19:15] When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs. There’s enough rage in the streets, enough guns, too many per person drowning dreams. All the beef students’ eyes down to forget their own stolen ones. We fend for ourselves, feeding off crumbs, unmet needs of volcano. The lava, a sharp reef. When he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs.
[00:19:41] Healing hearts. Now the school spins as she hums her voice and my mind a faint shaking leaf when he tells me she’s gone, the air leaves my lungs losing shamara. The adults are loud in their grief.

[00:19:57] Miko Lee: Well, thank you so much for grounding the book in that story, because I think there’s something about talking about doing that work, but keeping in mind a real person and the impacts of our violent society and what’s going on, but also how we keep moving on. So I, and

[00:20:13] Tatiana Chaterji: to say that, you know, Shaara really embraced this. She already, like so many of us and so many young people, she knew how to communicate through difficult situations, through drama and the gossip and what people are posting. And I saw that clarity and that maturity in her and wanted to just instill this book with that wisdom that, that young people often know how, already how to navigate these complex and oppressive systems. And that if we can offer a spotlight to them or something that’s substantive and really honors that intelligence, they’re, we, we could learn a lot.

[00:20:49] Miko Lee: Speaking of drama and learning a lot. I know that you have a background in theater and theater of the oppressed, and I’m wondering how you bring that work into your RJ work.

[00:21:00] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, well that’s a big passion of mine. I have not done it as much in the classroom space as I might have liked. But it’s it when, when there is the invitation or the, the, the container to really go deep and create stories. Using theatrical forms and, and our bodies, this, this magic of image theater, it can be so powerful.

[00:21:22] The bulk of my work in that area has been inside of prison and doing programming in that highly violent system where there is generative, juicy, beautiful art to be made. And I just shout out all of the incarcerated artists that I’ve worked with who helped to shape those spaces and do performance in the prison where, where there was kind of like a witnessing and a participation across the audience and the performers who are on stage. That is that that gives me a lot of just light and hope and yeah. Good stuff.

[00:22:02] Miko Lee: I wonder if you could share a bit for folks that are not as familiar with rj uh, restorative justice work, and particularly at school sites, if you could share about the carpet of community building, what is that all about?

[00:22:15] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh yeah. Well, in the book I talk about the standard model of three tiers of restorative justice using kind of a triangle diagram where the, the bottom third, it’s not even quite a third, it’s the biggest chunk of the triangle, but that bottom layer is tier one. And this is not just in restorative justice, a lot of people will be familiar with this, where tier one is kind of universal. It’s supposed to be for everybody. It is supposed to work for everyone, kind of the way that you shape the culture and the conditions of a learning environment.

[00:22:48] Tier two is when things go wrong or rather. People might need more support, more individualized attention in an RJ context, that’s often if there’s conflict or a pattern of, uh, behavior that is harmful. And then tier three is at the very top where it’s the fewest people. But the idea that maybe somebody needs to be removed in a typical school that would be through.

[00:23:15] Expulsion or suspension or even juvenile detention and that they are in a restorative justice framework, they are welcomed back with intention and clarity on what that means. Doing something that’s called a cosa, a circle of support and accountability that looks at the ways that a young person can succeed and holds them to account with a lot of love and care.

[00:23:39] So that triangle is great. Kind of, but it also could be Reconceptualized as a carpet of just interconnecting reasons for meeting in Circle. And I really wanna credit one of my mentors and friends, Kamoa Johnson, who helped me to think about this as a sort of, there’s so many reasons to get, come together and circle that none of them should be prioritized more than the other. Or rather that every single thing should be grounded in the strength of the community and building relationships. So if I’m meeting with someone because they did something. Wrong, quote unquote, you know, that’s also an opportunity for relationship. And there should be, uh, a piece of us getting to know each other as human.

[00:24:23] That is part of that as well. And yeah, so I think like just thinking about the carpet you can think about the different kinds of circles that people practice. That is all happening as community. That community building has to happen first and alongside all of these other interventions. So it’s almost like the two top layers of the triangle would actually be situated in the bottom triangle or the bottom little chunk. And that bottom chunk would actually be a circle

[00:24:50] Miko Lee: or just reconfiguring the whole idea of a triangle.

[00:24:54] Tatiana Chaterji: Right, exactly. Yeah.

[00:24:55] Miko Lee: Yeah. So that we are all on one level space working in collective, uh, communication.

[00:25:02] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, and I think I might’ve explained it in sort of a confusing way. You’d have to really look at the book to see the, the reconceptualization, but I wanna emphasize that The reason that this framework and this redesign is so crucial is because people jump into rj, they jump into a circle and they don’t do the groundwork to prepare everyone, including themselves to be there. But in a school environment, there’s any number of toxic elements that students are absorbing, that teachers are absorbing, that we’re all kind of just surviving with, you know, we’re hungry, we’re tired, we’re overstimulated, the lights are too bright. We didn’t get enough sleep. There’s distractions on our cell phones.

[00:25:44] There’s so many reasons that prevent us from sitting with each other and listening and being willing to learn from what another person might say or what their experience might be. And so if we can just go. Backwards and start with authentic connection and community building and skilling people up on how to listen. Then we’ll be more successful. Any number of people who have tried to do a circle and it fails, and I count myself in that group as well. It’s not. All your fault. In fact, it might not be your fault at all. There’s so many reasons why a circle will flop, and I think the assumption that I make is that people are not going to bear their souls to me or be vulnerable to me right off the bat.

[00:26:32] And maybe they won’t really ever. But that there are steps that can be taken to soften the hostility, the inherent hostility or harshness that is in our society, and to kind of slowly work towards a, just a, like a, a warmth. A warmth where people feel like it’s not dangerous to talk about the icky stuff and the uncomfortable stuff, and that we have to do it very slowly and in a container where students and really anyone can relearn the part of ourselves that we have to strip away when we grow up.

[00:27:11] Miko Lee: So I feel like you’re talking about multiple things. One is creating a safe environment for the young people to be able to speak what’s on their heart, what’s on their mind, and, and to recognize that everybody’s coming from such a different space. Even in one school. Even in one classroom. It reminds me of that theater game the moment before. Like you never know what happened to that person the moment before they came to that circle.

[00:27:34] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah.

[00:27:34] Miko Lee: And so it’s just to be very conscious of that, that, uh. All of the environment that they’re coming from.

[00:27:41] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Conscious of it and accepting of it, but also not accepting that that’s it. Like if someone is showing up and they’re on their phone or they’re kind of listening in a superficial way, they give a a cheap answer to a question that that’s not all they’re capable of. And I think we know that and educators would know that, but they might not have the tools to allow the student to go deeper or to, or even the time in their day in the semester to allow that growth to happen. And so I spotlight this experiment that we did at Fremont, which was 12 weeks long, and it rotated three times.

[00:28:18] It was an intro to the Media Academy, introduction to that. Architecture academy, and then it was a restorative justice class. And in those 12 weeks from the start to the finish, I noticed an incredible change in the student’s ability to connect with each other, to feel empowered, to take, uh, sort of shape what they understand and shape what they care about and what they might wanna advocate for. And it was an intensive laboratory. I was super strict about phones. You know, I was, it was like, that was the place where you had to listen, learn how to listen, which was, in fact, the, the, my biggest, deliverable for them was that they should know how to listen and that they, of course, knew how, but this was a way to practice it further.

[00:29:02] Miko Lee: Can you name a few other things in that 12 week session that were able to foment this, uh, community?

[00:29:10] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, I think because it was a non-academic space, I was really able to prioritize how people are listening and how they are, uh, speaking or communicating. So everybody has a different comfort level with speaking out loud. And being in circle can feel extremely intimidating if you’re not someone who likes to talk in front of people or likes to have the spotlight on you. So through the course of the class, there were, there were smaller activities to practice, people’s public speaking, and even reflecting and then articulating what it is that you wanna say and practicing what does it mean to divulge something but not too much that you feel exposed.

[00:29:50] That skill, I think, is something that adults often take for granted, that we know how to evaluate a situation and shape our story correctly. And not all adults either, but it’s something that for young people that is some that, that they can grow into that. Understand what they might wanna share that would be meaningful without making them feel too naked in front of their peers. So it’s sort of like all of these dimensions of what are the pressures that they’re feeling among this group of people? What feels comfortable to share? And when we got, when we broke into the more vulnerable and tender territory, it was pretty incredible to see and, and witness the shift in energy and how letting people’s guards down could happen, like in a responsible way. I, in no way, am advocating for having students and encouraging students to open up about their trauma and then be let loose into the, to the world. You know, there are so many dangerous things that, that people are dealing with and having to say,

[00:30:53] Miko Lee: especially our social media world.

[00:30:56] Tatiana Chaterji: Right, absolutely. That’s a whole other terrain. But to say that there is perhaps more possible than what we accept. So, so we kind of, I think we give up on like, well, you know, people are gonna shut down. They already are shut down and they’re guarded, and boom, that’s it. Let’s just roll with it. Let me give them as many worksheets as possible, but I’m not gonna ask them to talk out loud because that’s too much and

[00:31:23] Miko Lee: watch a bunch of movies.

[00:31:25] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Well, I mean, teachers would tell me that they were so grateful that this space was being held because of what I think they understood as like a, a naturally therapeutic environment. And then of course, it’s crazy because it wasn’t always great. Sometimes it, you know, it didn’t, I couldn’t contain the space as well as I wanted to, but then students would say that I was the only teacher that would. Require them to speak out loud. Um, and so, and I didn’t do

[00:31:48] Miko Lee: what of the whole day? That was the only class?

[00:31:51] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. Yeah. That’s pretty easy for some of them, you know, some of them and not all of them, but like, it’s, it’s remarkable to, to understand that education can happen that way. And increasingly with remote learning and with everything being sort of through this technological interface, it is possible to pretty much not communicate out loud. So then what does that mean? We are losing so much of what we’re capable of.

[00:32:13] Miko Lee: Yeah. It’s not giving voice to students at all. Literally.

[00:32:16] Tatiana Chaterji: Well, right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:19] Miko Lee: I mean, you make me think of a couple things. One, when you talk about the public speaking, clearly that’s where your theater training comes in, not just naturally to do the public speaking, but then I also, when you’re talking about consent and what you’re sharing and how much you’re sharing of yourself, ’cause that can be very vulnerable for young folks, especially folks that are survivors. And I’m thinking about Dr. Danielle Allen from Harvard and her work around the youth participatory politics. Are you familiar with her stuff?

[00:32:47] Tatiana Chaterji: No,

[00:32:47] Miko Lee: she’s amazing she, she has this whole theory about how youth should share, and one of her components is sharing, um, digitally what they wanna share about who they are in the world. But I was just thinking about these as you’re speaking about how you’re getting them to talk about who they are. And I’m wondering if you could share a little bit more about youth leadership and how that’s part of the development of the program, how important that is.

[00:33:15] Tatiana Chaterji: Absolutely. Um, I have a quote from one of my favorite RJ comrades to BD Gibson where he says that anything a young person can do, they should do that. We should hand it over, you know allow for more scaffolded, kind of shared responsibility. When I think about from the beginning of a school year to the end, that, that there’s kind of a, the teacher is, and the, or the youth worker, whoever’s holding the space, is doing a lot of the work to, to teach the skills, to transfer, the skills, to mentor and empower or skill up the young people. And that through the course of the year, by the end of it, that the young people are taking it on, shaping it, and they’re doing so. In collaboration with the adults. And that it is not so much just youth adult partnership, but that there’s a, a sense of intergenerational ness even among young people.

[00:34:08] There might be two people on the same grade level, one of whom has been in a youth leadership program and already kind of feels confident about doing any number of things. And I and a and their peer who could learn from that. Or an upper class person and a younger class person or a recent graduate. Many of the teachers and staff at Fremont were actually alumni of the school, which was really powerful for students to see someone who had gone through those same hallways. I think that’s all a, a, a piece of it.

[00:34:38] The other thing about youth leadership is that the model of restorative justice in schools that I’m grounded in and that I would say many of my people in Oakland are grounded in is peer leadership. So when students are leading circles, and not just leading circles, but also kind of having their ears to the ground and listening to what students are worried about, if there are social and political phenomena that are affecting students and staff, how, how can they shape the questions or the activities that might need to happen? And, um,

[00:35:12] Miko Lee: for sure they know what’s happening way more than any teacher does.

[00:35:16] Tatiana Chaterji: Right. I mean, often or in a different way.

[00:35:18] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:18] Tatiana Chaterji: And so to be able to invite their voice in a, in a, in a meaningful container that isn’t tokenizing it, that isn’t sort of celebrating them just for being young or oppressed. I mean, I see that a lot in, in, in the work of youth leadership even. But to sort of meaningfully integrate them, which also requires training them in various, skills. And that partnership and that kind of coming together and doing things as a community can be transformative for everyone involved. I mean, for the staff that I’ve worked with, not just at Fremont, but at other schools when I’ve had students that are leading a training in circle keeping, for example, that can be so magnificent because the teacher gets to literally learn from their students, which I think is a dream that many people already are already want to do.

[00:36:06] Miko Lee: Absolutely. I think that’s true.

[00:36:08] Ayame Keane-Lee: We’re gonna take a quick break from the interview and listen to Slow Fade by MILCK.

MUSIC

[00:40:26] That was Slow Fade by MILCK.

[00:40:29] Miko Lee: I wanna pull a little bit bigger and talk a little bit more about restorative justice for just a moment. You write in your book about this need for a cultural shift, a paradigm shift because we are living in a capitalistic, uh, you know punishment based world in that we have this whole prison industrial complex and in, in fact the education to prison industrial complex. So can you talk about the different questions that are asked that, that restorative justice uses versus re, re versus like.

[00:41:01] Tatiana Chaterji: retributive.

[00:41:02] Miko Lee: Yes. Cannot say that word. So talk a little bit about the difference in our current system, which is this punishment base versus a restorative justice based. What kind of questions are different?

[00:41:13] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, definitely. Uh, uh, and, and to say that it’s not just oppressive, capitalistic, it’s also very transactional, that our relationships are not human. They’re about just what people can get from them. And I’m seeing that just a lot. Um, but Howard Zer, I think is one of the people that I would credit with these contrasting questions in our current system, in, in sort of punitive and criminal or carceral spaces, the questions are who what law or rule was broken?

[00:41:40] Who broke it? You know, who’s at fault? And then what should be the consequence? And often consequence means punishment or retribution. It means a payback because you broke a law. And in that system, the law or the institutions, right, is. Is is more important than the person and the victim or survivor is invisible.

[00:42:02] They are not even really of concern. And our, that’s how our criminal legal system works. You don’t really often have to consult a victim or a survivor around what they want to have happened because they literally don’t matter. Their, their voice is taken away. It’s the state of California versus the person who is accused of a crime vis-a-vis the person who’s hurt or their mother, their community versus someone who, who has caused harm in a restorative approach.

[00:42:30] We ask. What the heck just happened? What, what’s going on? You know who was harmed? Who else was affected? And what needs to happen to make things right? And that what needs to happen to make things right? Also includes who needs to do what. So it’s going into the impact, the needs that arise from that impact, and then the obligations that. flow from there. So it’s a really sort of, it’s a more holistic and humanizing approach to situations that are complex. There’s always a backstory, and that backstory isn’t to justify the harm, it’s to give the context.

[00:43:14] It’s to understand how things happen. I have, I’m now a mom, I have two kids. If something’s going on at school or if my child is blamed for something, I have to ask what prompted this kid to do the thing? I mean, when you’re a parent, you really feel it quite closely, but it’s there all the time. There’s sort of, there’s cycles that get played out in any number of of problems that we attend to.

[00:43:38] Miko Lee: Thank you for breaking that down so clearly. We’re living in this time right now where the Epstein files are just being released and every day there’s a different story in the news. And I’m just wondering for folks right now that may be triggered every time they’re listening or reading or what, taking in the news, what are some RJ methods for coping with that?

[00:44:01] Tatiana Chaterji: My gosh, I’m one of these people that is triggered constantly and I just wanna give a shout out to all the survivors of, um, of child sexual exploitation, commercial sexual exploitation, and um, uh, sexual violence, all the, the, um, the predatory stuff that happens on the streets in my community and definitely at the schools where I’ve been. It is extremely. Unjust on the local level, and we’re seeing it at these, at the scale, right? Of power. So blatant,

[00:44:34] Miko Lee: so big, so international, so wild.

[00:44:39] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. So in terms of how can RJ help, I mean, I would say that there is such a lack of any kind of accountability right now for the harm doers for people who have caused harm. There’s no, there’s not, there’s not, there’s not punishment, right? If you wanna look at retributive justice, there’s not sort of

[00:44:57] Miko Lee: no accountability.

[00:44:58] Tatiana Chaterji: There’s no accountability, but there’s no compassionate encounter with with people who have done harm either. I mean, the framework I guess I would offer is the social relationship window. Um, ol and waktel, Ted Wachtel, various people have reenvisioned it, Dorothy Ving, and if you get the book, you can see all that. So that legacy, but that we sort of, we hold people who are causing harm. We hold them with love, and we also hold them with with a clear structure and boundary around what’s acceptable.

[00:45:28] And so we’re not sliding into a permissive zone where where we just let it go and enable the behavior to happen. And we’re also not trying to dehumanize people who have caused harm and only see them as as monsters. I, I don’t know, miko when it comes to people with such. Positional power, privilege, and just impunity. I, I don’t know if I would apply that to the, to the perpetrators, right, to the people who, who are responsible for such harm right now. Like, that’s not the conversation that I’m interested in having. I think, yeah, I, I don’t know. Maybe I’m messing up this question.

[00:46:02] Miko Lee: No, you’re not. I’s so complicated because as an abolitionist, you know, I don’t want these. I don’t want people to be incarcerated necessarily, but these are some hideous, awful people that are like, so how do, how do you like wrestle with that?

[00:46:18] Tatiana Chaterji: I think it’s like the, there’s individuals right, who cause harm, but I think the main thing is that there are systems that allowed this harm and are allowing and have continued this harm to happen. I,
[00:46:29] Miko Lee: and it’s perpetrated. It’s still going on.

[00:46:30] Tatiana Chaterji: Right? Right. So I think like it’s really about dismantling these systems and, and shining the light on what is there that we don’t always see because we are caught up in the interpersonal, right. And so much of conversations about oppression will get into interpersonal because that’s what we see.

[00:46:46] Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.

[00:46:46] Tatiana Chaterji: So students and community members will feel that someone is racist because someone has made a comment or this, that and the other. They’re not seeing the kind of racial capitalism, the structure of poverty and what’s baked into our laws that are behind it. So I think what circle and what restorative justice spaces can do is for me as someone who resists.

[00:47:08] Racial capitalism and resists structural inequality and the existence of poverty and racialized poverty in the way that it is, that it is. I think it is a space for dreaming together, for, for identifying shared struggle. What are the common things that we’re dealing with? A circle is really good because it breaks people out of isolation that they think they’re grappling with a thing on their own, and actually it is shared by other people and perhaps everyone.
[00:47:38] So then from that place of shared struggle, what do we dream that, could be different? And how do we, organize together? I see the healing component of storytelling and of channeling grief and rage as connected to action and, and strategy. So that’s primarily what I would say. Thank you for that question, for this timeliness. Yeah.

[00:48:02] Miko Lee: I’m wondering what you want folks to understand after reading your book. What do you want them to walk away with?

[00:48:09] Tatiana Chaterji: I think I want people to maybe f feel a, a little bit more confident that they could to the heart of pain with students and with others in your life, that there are frameworks and structures or ideas that can really. Hold you and support you in navigating that hard stuff or that even to study it. Maybe I want people to be curious about how do people create justice? What is, what is healing based justice look like? What’s possible? Let’s study it together because it takes a lot of work. It’s not apparent. Our media and Hollywood, they glamorize, you know, there’s propaganda.

[00:48:58] There’s just like a glamorous portrayal of vengeance and that humanity, we can have vengeance, but we can also have other things. And those things might be the ones that we, the, the healing based justice systems is what we want when it’s representing our best selves and what could help us and future generations.

[00:49:17] So to walk away with a little bit of hope. To not throw away RJ because of your past experiences where it sucked. RJ often sucks because of how, because of any number of factors and that it doesn’t, don’t give up. Don’t give up. It can be better. And it, and, and there’s some things that we can all learn, including myself and any of my own mistakes, that there’s perhaps, it’s still worth fighting for and it’s still worth trying, and that we can do it slowly with care, with intention, and to give that.

[00:49:51] Allowance that people aren’t going to be always ready, and it’s not their fault. They, that doesn’t make them less good or smart or wise or politically, you know, savvy. It’s that there’s so much that we are working against all the time to, and, and our survival mechanisms are very toxic. We don’t really treat each other well, and that’s on purpose. In fact, we tear each other down and that’s, how, systems are allowed to continue to exploit us. So, yeah, that’s, it’s kind of a mouthful, but maybe a little bit of that, like a little bit of inspiration to try things on.

[00:50:26] Miko Lee: Okay, I wanna go back. Can you give a breakdown of what copaganda is?

[00:50:32] Tatiana Chaterji: Oh, I mean, copaganda is what we all, I mean, I consume it certainly. It’s like the, it’s Paw patrol, it’s my kids getting exposed to superhero dogs that are the police because they quote unquote save the day. So it’s these stories that the police are going to help. And in fact, we should look for them. There was a one time at a story circle, this person was reading a book and the, and the refrain was, help is on the way. Help is on the way. It gets kept going through any number of crises. That, anyways, just to say that help is not always on the way, as many of us know from trying to seek police protection from harm.

[00:51:14] And that when it does arrive, if it does, that it can cause harm to us, that we can be the target of it, especially if we’re disabled or marginalized in another way. So propaganda is so pervasive, but it’s this idea that the police will will help us. And we’ll keep us safe. And I know from personal experience, my students know that that’s not always true. So then what is the alternative? We kind of like add our voice and creativity into the mix, which is also very hard because it’s a lot to work through. People are so culturally accustomed to thinking about external sources of help and protection from the state. You know?

[00:51:52] Miko Lee: And many marginalized communities have created their own pods of safety, like the Black Panthers and queer and trans folks because they knew that they could not rely on the cops to be able to help.

[00:52:04] Tatiana Chaterji: Absolutely. Yep. And that’s how I learned with Insight, women of Color against Violence, learning from people, immigrant women, sex workers, people who are not protected, who could not, or undocumented immigrants who couldn’t call on the state for help. What. What do they need and how do they create that for themselves?

[00:52:22] Mimi Kim was a big inspiration for me. So in my politics, kind of like trying to bring more people into this, right? Like, what, what does it look like when you talk about abolition? And students are like, no, are you kidding? Like, we can’t get rid of prisons. And, and, and that is absolutely okay to have that conversation and to sort of open up the possibilities there, recognizing that many people have not even gotten the kind of justice or protection that a prison might afford for some people and maybe has in some instances. Right? So to start with that and to be like, you deserve better now. You deserved better, your family deserves better.

[00:53:00] Miko Lee: You deserve food and shelter.

[00:53:02] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah.

[00:53:02] Miko Lee: The basic things. Yes.

[00:53:04] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah.

[00:53:05] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing. I really appreciate it. So I found this quote in your book by Aurora Levin Morales, and I’m just wondering, please read that quote for me, and then tell me the why. Why you included this, why it’s so important.
[00:53:20] Tatiana Chaterji: Aurora Elevens Morales is this poet who has given me so much inspiration with her work. And this quote was on the website of Restore Oakland, where I’ve partnered and I just, uh, shout out to Kari and Tash and everyone. So she says, for what is revolution, if not healing? And I put it, uh, to start off my I think it’s the conclusion, breathing in shards from a broken sky, new air, and new lungs.

[00:53:46] And I kind of put forth this idea of RJ lungs, which really like strength are, are, are strong with the power of empathy and connection. And yeah, I think that political work and change making happens with healing, it’s before and after and all around that there has to be that synchronicity between healing what’s wounded and, and, and giving us space for that while also activating change that they shouldn’t happen in these bubbles, which I think is, uh, more and more people are embracing that interplay between the two. It’s not just you, you heal over here and therapy. You do your political work where you burn out and people are getting abused and hurt all the time. It’s like more we should hold all of our human messy selves in the political work.

[00:54:35] Miko Lee: Thanks so much. And then my final thing is you included a quote by a ninth grade student. Could you share that quote with me and

[00:54:43] Tatiana Chaterji: Yes.

[00:54:43] Miko Lee: Why it’s so important?

[00:54:44] Tatiana Chaterji: One of my, um, teacher comrades Danielle Zimmerman, this quote came from one of her students in a writing exercise. And Ms. Z is someone who just really embraces RJ in all, in, in all ways. And so the student says, feed your heart with love, forgiveness, hope, and healing words. There is no other way to survive. And I think for me, it’s like if we are supposed to live in this world, if we want to live here, and we are taught that we have to be hard, we have to protect ourselves and be harsh and battle the hostility, uh, what is going to happen to us as a result? How are we shaping the, the, the next generation, our families the school environments that we’re part of, so that instead of that hardness feed yourself with this love, with this softness, with the power of of tenderness and and healing and it just, yeah, this student is so brilliant.

[00:55:46] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for listening tonight. Remember to reconnect to your ancestral technologies and hold in the power of tenderness.

[00:55:55] Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apexexpress to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preti Mangala-Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane-Lee. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 3.19.26- The Power of Tenderness appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 3.12.26- Feed Your Heart
12 maalis· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight our show is called Feed Your Heart. Host Miko Lee speaks with the collaborators and creators of the Asian American Pacific Islander Restorative Justice Network: Elli Nagai-Rothe & Tatiana Chaterji.

Restorative Justice is a movement and a set of practices that stands as an alternative to our current punitive justice system. It focuses on people and repairing harm by engaging all the impacted people working together to repair the harm. RJ is built off of ancient indigenous practices from cultures around the globe, including Native American, African, First Nation Canadian, and so many others.
To find out more about Restorative Justice and the work of our guests check out Info about the AAPI RJ Network on the Ripple website:
www.ripplecollective.org/aapirjnetwork
NACRJ conference in New Orleans:
www.nacrj.org/2026-conference
Show Transcript
[00:00:00] Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

[00:00:44] Miko Lee: Good evening. I’m your host Miko Lee, and tonight our show is called Feed Your Heart. And we are speaking about the collaborators and creators of the Asian American Pacific Islander Restorative Justice Network with the collaborators, Elli Nagai-Rothe and Tatiana Chaterji.

[00:01:03] Restorative justice is a movement and a set of practices that stands as an alternative to our current punitive justice system. It focuses on people and repairing harm by engaging all the impacted folks working together to repair that harm. RJ is built off of ancient indigenous practices from cultures around the globe, including Native American, African, first Nation Canadian, and many others. So join us as we feed your heart.

[00:02:01] Welcome to Apex Express. My lovely colleagues, Elli Nagai-Rothe, and Tatiana Chaterji. I’m so happy to speak with you both today. I wanna start off with a question I ask all of my guests, and Ellie, I’m gonna start with you and then we’ll go with to you, Tati. And the question is who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:02:24] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Hmm. I love that question. Thank you. My people come from Japan and Korea and China and Germany. My people are community builders and entrepreneurs survivors, people who have caused harm, people who have experienced harm people who’ve worked towards repair dreamers, artists and people who like really good food.

[00:02:51] And I carry their legacy of resilience and of gaman, which is a Japanese word that’s a little hard to translate, but basically means something like moving through moving through the unbearable with dignity and grace. , And I carry a legacy to continue healing the trauma from my ancestral line the trauma and justice. And that’s informs a lot of the work that I do around conflict transformation and restorative justice.

[00:03:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. And Tati, what about you? Who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?

[00:03:25] Tatiana Chaterji: Thank you for the question, Miko. The first thing that comes to mind, my people are the people we’re, we’re, we’re coming up on the cusp of a possible teacher strike, and I’m thinking about workers and the labor, movement and comrades in my life from doing work as a classified school worker for about a decade.

[00:03:46] Then my people are also from, my homelands. The two that I feel very close to me are in Finland, from my mom’s side, and then in Bengal, both India, west Bengal, and Bangladesh. And my people are also those who are facing facing the worst moments of their life, either from causing harm or experiencing harm as a survivor of violence.

[00:04:08] I think about this a lot and I think about also the smaller conflicts and tensions and issues that bubble up all the time. So my people are those that are not afraid to make it better, you know, to make it right. And I carry, oh gosh, what legacy do I. I wanna say first kind of the legacy of the Oakland RJ movement that really nurtured me and the youth that I’ve encountered in schools and in detention on the streets in the community.

[00:04:39] Youth who are young adults and becoming bigger, older adults and, and, and also elders. To me. So sort of that’s whose legacy I carry in shaping the. Society that we all deserve.

[00:04:52] Miko Lee: Thank you both for answering with such a rich, well thought out response that’s very expansive and worldly. I appreciate that. Ellie, I think it was two years ago that you reached out to me and said, I’m thinking about doing this thing with Asian American Pacific Islanders around restorative justice and you’re working on a project with Asian Law Caucus. Can you like roll us back in time about how that got inspired, how you started and where we’re at right now?

[00:05:22] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I’d forgotten that we, I had reached out to you at the early stages of this miko. The idea for this emerged in the context of conversations I was having with Asian Law Caucus around, anti-Asian violence and restorative justice. There was an enthusiasm for restorative justice as a pathway toward healing for AAPI communities. One of the things that kept coming up in those conversations was this assumption that there are no, or very few Asian restorative justice practitioners. And I kept thinking this, that’s not true. There are a lot, plenty of Asian practitioners. And I think that for me reflects the larger context that we’re living in the US where Asians are both at the same time, like hyper visible, , right. In terms of some of the violence that was happening. If you roll back several years ago I mean it’s still happening now, but certainly was, was at the height several years ago. So like hyper visible around that, but also in terms of like my model minority status, but also at the same time like invisibilized. So that strange paradox. And so my part of that was thinking about, well, what, what opportunities exist here, right? How can we actually bring together the restorative justice, Asian restorative justice practitioners in the Bay Area to be like regionally focused to come together to talk about how do we bring our identities into more fully into our work, , to build community with each other, and then also to build this pathway for new, for emergent practitioners to join us in this work. That’s a little bit of the background of how it came to be, and I’d love Tati to speak more to some of that context too.

[00:07:00] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah, thanks Ellie. Definitely thinking about work that I was doing in Chinatown and San Francisco. I was working with Chinese Progressive Association just before actually Asian Law Caucus reached out to us with this idea. I wanna shout out Lewa and Cheyenne Chen Le Wu, who are really envisioning an alternative process for their the members of this organization who are immigrant monolingual Cantonese speakers and, and working class immigrants. What are the options available to them to respond to harm and violence in any, any number of ways? And one of the things that we really saw.

[00:07:37] Miko Lee: Non carceral, right? Non carceral options to violence and harm, right?

[00:07:42] Tatiana Chaterji: Yes, exactly. That’s exactly what we were thinking of is, and in the period of time where people are talking about anti-Asian hate, they’re talking about hate crimes and violence against Asian Americans, there’s a simultaneous rhetoric and a belief that Asian people love police or want police interventions or actually believe al punishment. And no doubt that can be true for, for some of our community, but it is not the overwhelmingly dominant truth is what I would say. What I would say, and that actually by believing that Asian folks loved the police was its own bizarre and very toxic racial stereotyping that. Very vulnerable communities who are non-English speakers and living un under wage exploitation and other conditions.

[00:08:34] And so what we were doing was looking at what are the ways that we think about justice and the right way to respond to things and our relational ecosystems. And we began with messages from our home and family dynamics and kind of went outwards and, and everything was presented in Cantonese. I’m not a Cantonese speaker. I was working closely with those two women I mentioned and many others to think about. What is. Not just the, the linguistic translation of these concepts, but what is the cultural meaning and what applies or what can be sort of furthered in that context. And there were some very inspiring stories at the time of violence across communities in the city, and particularly between the Chinese community and the African American community and leaders in those spaces working together and calling forth the abolitionist dreams that were kind of already there.

[00:09:28] That people just want this kind of harm or violence not to happen. They don’t want it to happen to anyone again. And this is some thing I think about a lot as a survivor, that that is the dominant feeling is like we, you know, vengeance are not desires for some sort of punishment or not, that this should not happen again. And what can we do to prevent that and really care for the healing that needs to happen.

[00:09:53] Miko Lee: I appreciate you bringing up this solidarity between the African American and, and specifically Chinese American communities wanting a more abolitionist approach. We don’t hear that very much in mainstream media. Usually it’s pitted the Asian against black folks. Especially around the anti-Asian hate. We know that the majority of the hate crimes, violence against Asian folks were perpetrated by white folks. That’s what the data shows, but the media showed it was mostly African American folks. So I really appreciate lifting that part up. So take us from that journey of doing that work with a Chinese progressive association, powerful work, translating that also from, you know, your English to Chinese cultural situations to this network that you all helped to develop the A API Restorative Justice Network, how did that come about?

[00:10:45] Tatiana Chaterji: Part of the origin story is, is work that had been happening across the Bay Area. I was speaking about what’s happening in Chinatown. There’s also this coalition of community safety and justice that really has been diving into these questions of non carceral response to harm and violence. Then on the other side of the bay in Oakland, the Asian Pacific Environmental Network has been working with Restore Oakland to sit with survivors of crime and build up skills around circle keeping and response. So that’s just a little bit of this beautiful ecosystem that we are emerging out of. It almost felt like a natural extension to go here, you know, with a pen and restore Oakland. They were thinking a lot about interpretation and language justice. And so this is also just pulling these threads together for more robust future and practice.

[00:11:41] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for making those connections. We’ll put a link in our show notes because we did a recent episode on the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice, and particularly the collective Knowledge based catalog, which captures all these different lessons. So I think what you’re pointing out is that all these different groups are coming together, Asian American focus groups to, Pacific Islander focus groups to be able to find, alternatives to the Carceral system in an approach to justice.

[00:12:08] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Well, so it came about through lots of conversations, lots of collaborations I feel so, honored to be able to collaborate with Tati in this work. And other folks who were, , partnering alongside the Asian Law Caucus in this larger grant that was being offered to address anti-Asian hate and violence. Ultimately through many conversations, just wanting to create a space that was created for and by Asian restorative justice practitioners. And as far as we know, it’s the only. Gathering or, or network if it’s kind in the Bay Area, maybe in the nation. Somebody who’s listening maybe can chime in if that’s true, that’s not true. But as far as we know, that’s the only space that’s like this. And part of what we’ve wanted to create is certainly first and foremost because this is so much of the work of restorative justice, at least for us, is about relationships. At the end of the day, it’s how we relate to each other and thinking of, of different ways than is often modeled in mainstream world about how we relate to each other.

[00:13:11] We wanted to start with those relationships and so. We created space for current practitioners in the Bay Area to come together. And we had a series of both in-person and virtual conversations. And really it was a space to offer to really build this sense of community and these relationships to share our knowledge with each other, to offer really deep peer support. And specifically we were really interested in bringing and weaving more of our cultural and ancestral ways of being into our practice of restorative justice. And so what does that look like? Can we bring more of those parts of ourselves into our work, our lived experiences into our work, and how we address and hold conflict and harm. I’ll speak for myself, such a nourishing space to be part of with other practitioners. Just really allowing more of like a holistic sense of ourselves into our work. And what all the things that could that have come from that. So we’ve been continuing to meet, so what has this been like two years now?
[00:14:12] Almost? We had, in addition to the existing practitioners who were based in the Bay Area, we held a training for like an introduction to restorative justice training that built on the things we were thinking about and learning about with each other around our Asian identities. And that was for folks who were kind of in an adjacent field, social workers, therapists, educators, folks who are doing work with API community workers. And so then we train them up and then they join this net, this larger network. And we’ve continued to have conversations every month, in a community of practice space. For me, such a wonderful space to be able to connect, to continue, explore together how we can bring more of ourselves into our work in a more relational, integrated and holistic way.

[00:14:56] Miko Lee: Thanks so much for that overview. I wanna go into it a little bit more, but I wanna roll us back for a moment. And Tati, I’d love if you could share with our audience what is restorative justice and what does a restorative justice practitioner do.

[00:15:08] Tatiana Chaterji: The big one. Okay. I think of restorative justice as an alternative to criminal and punitive responses to harm and wrongdoing. I think that’s where the definition really comes to life. Although people who are in the field will say that actually it’s before the harm or wrongdoing happens, and that it’s about cultural norms and practices of caring for each other in a communal way, having each other’s back relying on relationships, which also includes effective communication and compassionate communication. So Restorative justice in how I’ve learned it in the, in the Oakland community was, a lot of the practices were carried by a European Canadian woman named Kay PRUs, who’s one of my teachers and who had also, studied with first Nations people in Canada that ish and klingit people, and that there’s been some controversy over how she carried those teachings and that there’s native people on all sides who have sort of taken a stand.

[00:16:12] I wanna name, this controversy because it feels important to talk about cultural appropriation, cultural survival, that circle practice and how circle is done in many restorative justice spaces will feel very foreign to a person who is indigenous, who perhaps has these ancestral practices in their own lineage, their own history and family. And this is because of colonialism and, and erasure and displacement, and. Reckoning with all of this as immigrants who are on native land, you know, from all, most of us in the API RJ network. Just what, what is this? What, how do we grapple with this? You know, how do we do an appropriate recognition of practices and traditions and how do we build and think about interconnection or the inherent and intuitive knowledge that we have to do non-car work, which is at the core, I’ve sort of expanded off of your prompt, but an RJ practitioner is someone who holds space for for these conversations, kind of when things are the hardest, when there is heartbreak and betrayal and harm or conflict and also what, the work of setting conditions for that not to happen or for the way that we move through those difficulties to go as best as possible.

[00:17:43] Miko Lee: Thank you for expanding on that. I’m wondering if Ellie, you could add to that about like what is a circle practice, what does that look like?

[00:17:51] Elli Nagai-Rothe: A circle practice. It can look like a lot of different things, but ultimately it’s being in a circle, and being able to connect with each other. Again, I talked about how relationships are at the core. That might be when we’re, when we’re in circling together, we are relating to each other. We’re telling our stories. We’re weaving our stories together that might be happening when there’s no conflict and when there’s no harm. In fact, ideally that’s happening all the time, that we’re being able to gather together, to share stories, to be known by each other and so that if and when conflict does occur, we know how to, how to connect and how to come back to each other because the relationships matter. We know. Okay. ’cause conflict will happen. We will, we are gonna hurt each other. We’re humans. That’s part of being human. We’re gonna mess up and make mistakes. And so a prac having a practice to come back together to say, well, what, what can we do to repair this? How can we make this right, as Tati was saying?
[00:18:46] And, and so then circling, be circling up and having a circle practice can also mean when there is conflict, when harm has happened, how can we have people be able to hear one another, to understand what’s happening and to repair as much as possible. Um, while doing that again in the ecosystem of relationships. So sometimes that’s happening with a, a couple folks and sometimes that’s happening with a whole community or a whole group of people.

[00:19:10] Ayame Keane-Lee We’re going to take a quick pause from the interview and listen to Tatiana recite an excerpt from the A API RJ Network Reflection document.

[00:19:18] Tatiana Chaterji: Mirrors of each other. To prepare for our closing ritual, I pull a small table with a candle and incense from the back room into the circle. This is our last in-person gathering, and we want to end with building a collective altar for the future of RJ that is rooted in the wisdom of our Asian cultural lineages.Please think of an offering to make this vision a reality. I explain that we use our imaginations to sculpt the air in front of us, shaping it into the essence of the offering. As I have done in prison with incarcerated artists who create textures and depth of story without material props, supplies, or the frills of theater production on the outside.

[00:20:01] I volunteered to go first and model how this is done. Standing and walking towards the altar. I bring my fingers to the center of my chest and pinch an imaginary ball of thread. I want to deepen my understanding of Bengali peacemaking and justice traditions. I say pulling the thread in a vertical motion, stretching up and down to create a cord of groundedness.
Realizing there are actually many dimensions. I also pull the thread forwards and backwards in a lateral direction, saying this means looking to the past and dreaming the future. I hold this grided net, gather it around my body and ceremoniously place it on the altar. Others echo the desire for bringing forward parts of their Asian lineage that aren’t accessible to them.
People create shapes with their bodies, making offerings to the altar that symbolize taking up space, staying grounded in a world that is shaky, reciprocity with the earth, ancestors and descendants, bringing in more ancestors permission to create and play forgiveness to self and others. Timelessness with Earth as a mirror and patience.

[00:21:14] Sujatha closes her eyes and forms an image for us through stream of consciousness. She says, I see indra’s net infinite with shimmering diamonds. At each point, I notice the goosebumps raise on the skin of my arms as she continues it is as if she has reached inside of me pulling from the sutra of ra, which was part of my childhood. It is a piece of scripture and a spiritual concept that deeply grounds my practice in RJ as an adult. I see her hands, which she has raised, and fingers trembling, glimmering ever so slightly. She speaks slowly carrying us with her in a visualization de drops, mirrors. I cannot be who I am meant to be unless you are who you are meant to be. RJ is the material of the web. This was a rare moment of belonging for me, as I seamlessly reflected in the speech and cultural symbols of a peer seamless. This integration as South Asian and as an RJ practitioner, seamless, being able to hang onto a reference from religious traditions that are hidden in the diaspora or distorted by mainstream social messaging.

[00:22:28] Ayame Keane-Lee We hope you enjoyed that look into the AAPI RJ Network Reflection. Let’s get back to the interview.

[00:22:35] Miko Lee: Can you each share what brought you to this work personally?

[00:22:40] Tatiana Chaterji: Sure. As a young activist involved in Insight Women of Color against Violence and aware of the work of Critical Resistance, and I had a pretty clear politics of abolition, but I didn’t. Really think that it impacted me as personally as it did when I was in my early twenties and I suffered a brain injury from a vehicular assault, a hit and run that may have been gang affiliated or, a case of mistaken identity. My recovery is, is, is complicated. My journey through various kinds of disabilities has shaped me. But I think the way that I was treated by the police and by the justice quote unquote justice system, which I now call the criminal legal system, it because there was no justice. I sort of don’t believe that justice is served in the ways that survivors need. yeah, I really, I got very close to the heart of what an RJ process can do and what RJ really is. I got introduced to Sonya Shah and the work of Suha bga and I was able to do a surrogate victim offender dialogue and then later to facilitate these processes where people are kind of meeting at the, at the hardest point of their lives and connecting across immense suffering and layers of systemic and interpersonal internalized oppression.
[00:23:59] Just so much stuff and what happens when you can cross over into a shared humanity and recognition. It’s just, it’s just so profound and and from that space of healing and, and, and compassion, I’ve been able to think about. Other ways that RJ can look and have sort of been an advan, what is it evangelical for it? You know, I think that because we don’t see these options, I, I, because I knew people, I was able to connect in this way and I would just shout out David uim, who’s the one who told me that even if I didn’t know the person who harmed me, that this was possible. People so often give up, they’re just like, well, I have to feel this way. I have to just deal with it. Swallow the injustice and the lack of recognition. Just sort of keep going. Grit your teeth. I think we don’t have enough knowledge of what’s possible and so we harden ourselves to that. Yeah, I’ll stop there. Thanks for listening.

[00:24:59] Miko Lee: Oh, that’s the gaman that Ellie was talking about, right? In Chinese we say swallow the bitter. Right. To be able to just like keep going, keep moving. And I think so much of us have been programmed to just something horrible happens. You just swallow it, you bite it down, you don’t deal with it and you move on. Which is really what RJ is trying to teach us not to do, to recognize it, to to talk to it, to speak to it, to address it so that we could heal. Ellie, what about you? How did you get involved?

[00:25:30] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Yeah. And Tati, thanks so much for sharing. I always appreciate hearing. I like your story and what draws you to this work is so powerful. For me, I’ll take it a little bit more meta further back. What draws me to this work is my family history. I’m multiracial. My family, my ancestry comes from many different places. And part of that my grandparents, my aunties, uncles, Japanese Americans who were, who were born, some of them, my grandpa, and his family here in Oakland, in this area. And, um, other my grand, my grandmother and her family in Southern California. During World War II, were unjustly incarcerated along with 125,000 Japanese Americans in ways that were so deeply harmful and traumatic and are so parallel to what is happening right now to so many communities who are being detained and deported. And that experience has deeply, deeply impacted certainly my community’s experience, but my family’s experience of trauma.

[00:26:30] And I’m yonsei, fourth generation Japanese American. And though I wasn’t directly involved or impacted by that incarceration, I feel it very viscerally in my body, that feeling of loss, of disconnection of, of severance from community, from family, from place, and, . Even before I knew what restorative justice was, I was in my body striving to find justice for these things that have happened? That drew me into conflict transformation work and ultimately restorative justice work. And that’s where I found really at the, at the core, so much of this, this intuitively feels right to me. I didn’t wanna have a place of, I wanted to heal. That was what I wanted to feel the feeling of, can we heal and repair and can I heal and repair what’s happened in this, my experience and my family’s experience and community’s experiences?

[00:27:23] That work ultimately led me to do restorative justice work here in the Bay Area. I started doing that work with schools and community organizations. And so I really hold the bigger possibilities of what’s possible when we think differently about how we hold relationships and how we hold deep, deep pain and harm and what’s possible when we can envision a different kind of, a world, a different kind of community where we can take accountability for things that have happened. And knowing that all of us at, at different places, I know that’s true in my family line, have caused harm and also experienced harm, that those things can happen at the same time. And so how can we have a sense of humanity for what’s possible when we actually come, come to each other with a humility of what, how can we heal? How can we heal this together? How can we make this as right as possible? So that’s, that’s a bit of my story.

[00:28:13] Miko Lee: Thank you both for sharing.

[00:28:15] Ayame Keane-Lee Next we’re going to take a music break and listen to Miya Folick “Talking with Strangers”

MUSIC

[00:34:05] that was “Talking with Strangers” by Miya Folick

[00:34:09] Miko Lee: I’m wondering, I know this, Asian American, Pacific Islander, RJ Circle, a bunch of it has been online just because this is how we do in these times and I’m wondering if there’s something unique and empowering about doing this online. I bring that up because there have been many in person gatherings. I’ve been a part of this circle, so I’m really happy to be a part of it. For me, the vibe of being in person where we’re sharing a meal together, we’re in a circle, holding onto objects, making art together is very different from being online. And I’m wondering, if there’s something uniquely positive about being online?

[00:34:47] Tatiana Chaterji: I would just say that yeah, the intimacy and the warmth and the sort of the strength of the bonds that we have in this network are, are so beautiful and it’s possible to have incredible, virtual experiences together. A lot of us do movement art or theater or creative. We have creative practices of our own. And when we lead each other in those exercises, we are really just a feeling of togetherness. Like that’s so special. And for people who have had that online, they know what I’m talking about. That can be really, really incredible. And, you know, we’ve been in the Bay Area and really in Oakland, but we want to expand or we want to think about what are all the ways that we can connect with other people. Around this intersection of API identity and RJ practice. And so that’s the potential, I guess is what I would say is just to really, move across time and space that way.

[00:35:47] Miko Lee: Ellie, do you have thoughts on this, the online versus in real life?

[00:35:51] Elli Nagai-Rothe: I think there’s so many wonderful things about being in person because I feel like so much, at least I don’t know about your worlds, but my world, so much of it is online these days on Zoom. There is something really special about coming together, like you said, to share a meal to be in each other’s physical presence and to interact in that way. At the same time when we’re online, there’s still so much warmth and connection and intimacy that comes from these relationships that I’ve been building over now, like two years for some of us. The opportunities are more about being able to reach accessibility, right? Folks to be able to come online and, and potentially even broaden. I mean, who knows what that will look like right now it’s regionally focused, but maybe there’s a future in which that happens to be outside the Bay Area.

[00:36:31] Miko Lee: And speaking of the future and where it’s going. This initially started by, funding from one of the Stop the Hate grants, which sadly has concluded in the state of California. I’m wondering what this means for this, process that it doesn’t have any set funding anymore what does the future look like?

[00:36:52] Elli Nagai-Rothe: We really wanna continue this miko and being able to continue to meet and gather in community. Right now we’re continuing to meet monthly in our community of practice space to support each other and to continue to explore really this intersection, right, of restorative justice in our idea, our Asian identities. There’s so much more opportunity to continue to build together, to create a larger community and base of folks who are exploring and ex doing this work together. Also for the intention of what does that mean for our communities? How can we find ways to take this practice that many of us do, right?

[00:37:27] As practitioners, how can we translate that to our community so that we know, we know at its core that this work, there are things from our cultural practices that are just. So familiar, right? Certain practices around how we you know, this radical, some of the things we talked about, radical acts of hospitality and care are so intuitive to our Asian communities. How can we translate that practice in our work so that we can continue to make this these pathways available to our community? So we hope to continue, we wanna continue to gather, we wanted to continue to build, um, and make space for more people to join us in this exploration and this opportunity for yeah, more expansion of what’s possible for our communities.

[00:38:11] Miko Lee: For me as somebody who’s Chinese American and being a part of this network, I’ve learned from other Asian American cultures about some of the practices, well, I did know about things like tsuru folding a paper crane as part of the Japanese American culture, learning different things from different community members about elements that are part of their cultures and how they incorporate that, whether that’s yoga or a type of, Filipino martial art or a type of Buddhist practice. And how they fit that into their RJ work has actually helped me kind of expand my mind and made me think about more ways that I could bring in my own Chinese American culture. So for me, that was one of those things that was like a blessing. I’m wondering what each of you has learned personally about yourself from being part of this network.

[00:39:02] Tatiana Chaterji: What comes to mind is the permission to integrate cultural identity and practice more explicitly and to know that there are others who are similarly doing that. It’s sort of this, this acceptance of sort of what I know and how I know it that can be special. You know, in the, in the similar way that I mentioned about cultural appropriation and the violence that various communities have felt under capitalism and white supremacist structures. Everything there is, there is, I don’t, something, something so magical to just step outside of that and be like, this is, it’s a mess. It’s a mess out there. We are constantly battling it. How do we actually not make ourselves smaller right here?

[00:39:50] Miko Lee: I totally hear that. And I’m thinking back to this gathering we had at Canticle Farms, where I think Tati, you said, when was the last time you were in a space where you were the only Asian person and how you walk through that mostly white space and what is that like for you and how do you navigate? And so many people in the room are like, what their minds were blown. For me, I’m in mostly Asian American spaces and Pacific Islander spaces, so I’m like, oh wow, that wasn’t always true for me. So that’s my time in my life right now. So it was really fascinating to kind of ponder that.

[00:40:24] Tatiana Chaterji: Yeah. And I think many of us, I’m so glad that you feel that because many of us, don’t really know what exactly our ancestral technologies might be, or even what to name. This gave us, again, permission to look back or to reframe what we know or that we’ve understood from community as being from various traditions, homelands, you know, longer legacies that we’re carrying and just to, to, to, to celebrate that or to even begin to, to, to bring language to that and feel a place of our own belonging. Whereas, I mean, as a South Asian diasporic member of the diaspora, I see so many the words that are coming from Sanskrit, which has its own, history of castes violence and like sort of what the expansion and the co-optation is, is, is really quite massive to the point where I feel like I’m on the outside and I don’t believe that I should own it any more than anyone else. But I think if there’s a way that it’s practiced that is in, in, in integrity and less commodified because it is ancient, because it is medicine. You know, that I, I deserve to feel that, you know, and to tend to be welcomed into it in, in this you know, outside of the homeland to be here in Asian America or whatever it is, and to claim it is something quite special.

[00:41:50] Miko Lee: Love that. Thank you for sharing. Ellie, what about you? What have you learned from being in part of this network?

[00:41:55] Elli Nagai-Rothe: I was just gonna say like, yes, Tati to all the things you just said. So appreciate that. I, it’s very similar, similar in some ways to what Tati was saying, like the, the permission giving, the space that we, oh, permission giving that we give to each other, to to claim, like, to claim and reclaim these practices. And I think that’s what I heard so often from people in this network and continue to hear that this, the time, our time together and the things that we’re doing. Feel like it’s, it doesn’t feel like a so much about like our, what is our professional practice. And I say professional with quotes. It’s more of like, how do we integrate this part, this really profound journey of ancestral reclaiming, of remembering, of healing. And, and when we do that, we’re working from this really. A deep place of relationship, of interdependence, of where we’re like, our identity and our sense of who we are is so connected to our communities. It’s connected to the natural world. And so like how can we, that’s part of what I’ve appreciated is like really in this deep way, how can we remember and reconnect to, in some cases, like practices, pre-colonial practices and wisdom that was suppressed or taken away, certainly in my and family experience, right?

[00:43:11] It was very deliberately state sponsored violence severed those practices. And so some of this reclaiming as a part of my own healing has been really given me more voice and space to say like, yeah, I can, I can, I want to, and I, that’s part of my own practice, but also share that with the, the groups that I’m part of. And that feels a little bit. We talked about that a little bit in the network of how do we share these practices in ways that feel authentic, like Tati said, with integrity, but also what does that mean to share these practices in spaces that are outside of, you know, Asian communities? I don’t know, like that’s a whole other conversation, right? It feels because there is so much cultural co-opting that’s happening, right? And so I feel, I think that’s why this network is so valuable and, and helpful to be in a space. Of course, it’s a very diverse group of Asian identities and yet it’s a space where we can feel like we can try on in these practices to see what that feels like in our bodies in ways that feel really like, have a lot of integrity and a lot of authenticity and to support each other in that.

[00:44:12] And so that we can feel able to then share that in spaces than, in our communities and the work that we’re doing in terms of, restorative justice work.
[00:44:19] Miko Lee: So how can our audience find out more about these circles if they wanna learn more about how they could potentially get involved?

[00:44:29] Elli Nagai-Rothe: The best way to go is to look at the Ripple Collective website, ripple collective.org. We have some information about, the A API Restorative Justice Network there. I’m hoping that we can continue this. I really am excited about, members of the network continuing to stay in relationship with each other, to support each other. Tati and I are gonna be offering a session at the upcoming national Association for Community and Restorative Justice Conference that’s happening in New Orleans in July. We’re gonna be sharing what we learned about our experiences with this network and centering our Asian identities and restorative justice practice. We’re gonna be holding a a caucus space for Asian practitioners to come and join us. Yeah, so what else? Tati.

[00:45:14] Tatiana Chaterji: We’re also compiling reflections from various participants in the network around what this has meant. What, what have they learned or discovered, and what’s to come. I think a question that I’ve had, a question that we’ve been stewing on with other South Asian, , practitioners is what does you know, what does caste how does caste show up and reckoning with harm doing? And our communities are not a monolith, and, and as we are treated as part of a, sort of like a brown solidarity, third world movement space in the West, there’s just a lot of unrecognized and unnamed oppression that is actively happening. So, you know, really like being, being brave and humble to, to, to talk about that.

[00:46:01] Miko Lee: Thank you both so much for sharing your time with me today.

[00:46:05] Elli Nagai-Rothe: Thanks so much, Miko.

[00:46:06] Tatiana Chaterji: Thanks, Miko.

[00:46:07] Ayame Keane-LeeTo finish off our show tonight, we’ll be listening to “Directions” by Hāwane.

MUSIC

[00:49:55] That was “Directions” by Hāwane.

[00:49:57] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for listening tonight. Remember to reconnect to your ancestral technologies and hold in the power of tenderness. To find out more about restorative justice and the work of our guests, check out info about the A API RJ network on the Ripple website, ripple collective.org, and about the conference that Ellie and Tati will be presenting at at the NAC RJ Conference in New Orleans, both of which we’ll have linked in our show notes.

[00:50:30] Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apex Express to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane- Lee. Have a great night.

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APEX Express – 2.12.26 – Anti-Pacific Islander Hate Amid Ongoing Injustice
12 helmi· KPFA - APEX Express
APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
On this episode, the Stop AAPI Hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council discuss a new report on anti–Pacific Islander hate.
They examine the documented impacts of hate, structural barriers Pacific Islander communities face in reporting and accessing support, and the long-standing traditions of resistance and community care within PI communities.

Important Links:

Stop AAPI Hate

Stop AAPI Hate Anti-Pacific Islander Hate Report

If you have questions related to the report, please feel free to contact Stop AAPI Hate Research Manager Connie Tan at [email protected]

Community Calendar: Upcoming Lunar New Year Events

Saturday, February 14 – Sunday, February 15 – Chinatown Flower Market Fair, Grant Avenue (fresh flowers, arts activities, cultural performances)
Tuesday, February 24 – Drumbeats, Heartbeats: Community as One, San Francisco Public Library (Lunar New Year and Black History Month celebration)
Saturday, February 28 – Oakland Lunar New Year Parade, Jackson Street
Saturday, March 7 – Year of the Horse Parade, San Francisco
Throughout the season – Additional Lunar New Year events, including parades, night markets, and museum programs across the Bay Area and beyond.

Transcript: [00:00:00]
Miata Tan: Hello and welcome. You are tuning in to Apex Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders.
I’m your host, Miata Tan and tonight we’re examining community realities that often go under reported.
The term A API, meaning Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders is an [00:01:00] acronym we like to use a lot, but Pacific Islander peoples, their histories and their challenges are sometimes mischaracterized or not spoken about at all.
Stop A API Hate is a national coalition that tracks and responds to the hate experience by A API communities through reporting, research and advocacy.
They’ve released a new report showing that nearly half of Pacific Islander adults experienced an act of hate in 2024 because of their race, ethnicity, or nationality.
Tonight we’ll share conversations from a recent virtual community briefing about the report and dive into its findings and the legacy of discrimination experienced by Pacific Islanders.
Isa Kelawili Whalen: I think it doesn’t really help that our history of violence between Pacific Islander Land and Sea and the United States, it already leaves a sour taste in your mouth. When we Pacifica. Think [00:02:00] about participating in American society and then to top it off, there’s little to no representation of Pacific Islanders.
Miata Tan: That was the voice of Isa Kelawili Whalen, Executive Director at API Advocates and a member of Stop, A API hates Pacific Islander Advisory Council. You’ll hear more from Isa and the other members of the advisory council soon.
But first up is Cynthia Choi, the co-founder of Stop, A API, Hate and co-Executive Director of Chinese for affirmative action.
Cynthia will help to ground us in the history of the organization and their hopes for this new report about Pacific Islander communities.
Cynthia Choi: As many of you know, Stop API Hate was launched nearly six years ago in response to anti-Asian hate during COVID-19 pandemic. And since then we’ve operated as the [00:03:00] nation’s largest reporting center tracking anti A. PI Hate Acts while working to advance justice and equity for our communities.
In addition to policy advocacy, community care and narrative work, research has really been Central to our mission because data, when grounded in community experience helps tell a fuller and more honest story about the harms our communities face. Over the years, through listening sessions and necessary and hard conversations with our PI community members and leaders, we’ve heard a consistent.
An important message. Pacific Islander experiences are often rendered invisible when grouped under the broader A API umbrella and the forms of hate they experience are shaped by distinct histories, ongoing injustice, and unique cultural and political [00:04:00] context. This report is in response to this truth and to the trust Pacific Islander communities have placed in sharing their experience.
Conducted in partnership with NORC at the University of Chicago, along with stories from our reporting center. we believe these findings shed light on the prevalence of hate, the multifaceted impact of hate and how often harm goes unreported.
Our hope is that this report sparks deeper dialogue and more meaningful actions to address anti pi hate.
We are especially grateful to the Pacific Islander leaders who have guided this work from the beginning.
Earlier this year, uh, Stop API hate convened Pacific Islander Advisory Council made up of four incredible leaders, Dr. Jamaica Osorio Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha Church, Michelle Pedro, and Isa Whalen. Their leadership, wisdom [00:05:00] and care have been essential in shaping both our research and narrative work.
Our shared goal is to build trust with Pacific Islander communities and to ensure that our work is authentic, inclusive, and truly reflective of lived experiences. These insights were critical in helping us interpret these findings with the depth and context they deserve.
Miata Tan: That was Cynthia Choi, the co-founder of Stop, A API, hate and co-Executive Director of Chinese for affirmative action. As Cynthia mentioned to collect data for this report, Stop A API Hate worked with NORC, a non-partisan research organization at the University of Chicago.
In January, 2025, Stop A API. Hate and norc conducted a national survey that included 504 Pacific Islander respondents. The survey [00:06:00] examined the scope of anti Pacific Islander hate in 2024, the challenges of reporting and accessing support and participation in resistance and ongoing organizing efforts.
We’ll be sharing a link to the full report in our show notes at kpfa.org/program/apex-express.
We also just heard Cynthia give thanks to the efforts of the Stop A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council.
this council is a team of four Pacific Islander folks with a range of professional and community expertise who helped Stop A API hate to unpack and contextualize their new report.
Tonight we’ll hear from all four members of the PI Council. First up is Dr. Jamaica Osorio, a Kanaka Maoli wahine artist activist, and an Associate Professor of Indigenous and native Hawaiian politics [00:07:00] at the University of Hawaiʻi at Mānoa . Here’s Dr. Jamaica, reflecting on her initial reaction to the report and what she sees going on in her community.
Dr. Jamaica Heolimeleikalani Osorio: Aloha kākou. Thank you for having us today.
I think the biggest thing that stood out to me in the data and the reporting that I haven’t really been able to shake from my head, and I think it’s related to something we’re seeing a lot in our own community, was the high levels of stress and anxiety that folks in our community were experiencing and how those high levels were almost, they didn’t really change based on whether or not people had experienced hate. Our communities are living, um, at a threshold, a high threshold of stress and anxiety, um, and struggling with a number of mental health, issues because of that.
And I think this is an important reminder in relationship to the broader work we might be doing, to be thinking about Stopping hate acts against folks in our community and in other communities, but really to think about what are the [00:08:00] conditions that people are living under that make it nearly unlivable for our communities to survive in this place.
Uh, the, the other thing that popped out to me that I wanna highlight is the data around folks feeling less welcome. How hate acts made certain folks in our community feel less welcome where they’re living.
And I kind of wanna. Us to think more about the tension between being unwelcomed in the so-called United States, and the tension of the inability for many of our people to return home, uh, if they would’ve preferred to actually be in our ancestral homes. And what are. How are those conditions created by American Empire and militarism and nuclearization, kind of the stuff that we talked about as a panel early on but also as we move away from today’s conversation thinking about like what is. The place of PIs in the so-called United States. Uh, what does it mean to be able to live in your ancestral homeland like myself, where America has come to us, and chosen to stay?
What does it mean for our other PI family members who have [00:09:00] come to the United States? Because our homes have been devastated by us militarism and imperialism. That’s what’s sitting with me that I think may not. Immediately jump out of the reporting, but we need to continue to highlight, uh, in how we interpret.
Miata Tan: That was Dr. Jamaica Osorio, an Associate Professor of Indigenous and native Hawaiian politics at the University of Hawaiʻi at Māno a.
Now let’s turn to Isa Kelawili Whalen. Isa is the Executive Director of API Advocates and another member of the Stop A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. Here Isa builds on what Dr. Jamaica was saying about feelings of stress and anxiety within the Pacific Islander communities. Okay. She also speaks from her experience as an Indigenous CHamoru and Filipino woman. Here’s Isa.
Isa Kelawili Whalen: [00:10:00] American society and culture is drastically different from Pacifica Island and our culture, our roots, traditions, and so forth, as are many ethnicities and identities out there. But for us who are trying to figure out how to constantly navigate between the two, it’s a little polarizing.
Trying to fit in into. American society, structure that was not made for us and definitely does not coincide from where we come from either. So it’s hard to navigate and we’re constantly felt, we feel like we’re excluded, um, that there is no space for us. There’s all these boxes, but we don’t really fit into one.
And to be honest, none of these boxes are really made for anyone to fit into one single box the unspoken truth. And so. A lot of the times we’re too Indigenous or I’m too Pacifica, or I’m too American, even to our own families being called a coconut. A racial comment alluding to being one ethnicity on the inside versus the outside, and to that causes a lot of mental health harm, um, within ourselves, our [00:11:00] friends, our family, community, and understanding for one another.
in addition to that. I think it doesn’t really help that our history of violence between Pacific Islander Land and Sea and the United States, it already leaves a sour taste in your mouth. When we Pacifica. Think about participating in American society and then to top it off, there’s little to no representation of Pacific Islanders, um, across.
The largest platforms in the United States of America. It goes beyond just representation with civic engagement, um, and elected officials. This goes to like stem leadership positions in business to social media and entertainment. And when we are represented, it’s something of the past. We’re always connotated to something that’s dead, dying or old news.
And. we’re also completely romanticized. This could look like Moana or even the movie Avatar. So I think the feeling of disconnected or unaccepted by American society at large is something that stood out to me in the [00:12:00] report and something I heavily resonate with as well.
Miata Tan: That was Isa Kelawili Whalen, Executive Director at API Advocates and a member of the Stop A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. As we heard from both Dr. Jamaica and Isa, the histories and impacts of hate against. Pacific Islander communities are complex and deeply rooted from ongoing US militarization to a lack of representation in popular culture.
Before we hear from the two other members of the PI Advisory Council, let’s get on the same page. What are we talking about when we talk about hate?
Connie Tan is a research manager at Stop, A API hate and a lead contributor to their recent report on anti Pacific Islander hate.
Here she is defining Stop A API hate’s research framework for this project.
[00:13:00]
Connie Tan: Our definition of hate is largely guided by how our communities define it through the reporting. So people have reported a wide range of hate acts that they perceive to be motivated by racial bias or prejudice.
The vast majority of hate acts that our communities experience are not considered hate crimes. So there’s a real need to find solutions outside of policing in order to address the full range of hate Asian Americans and Pacific Islander experience. We use the term hate act as an umbrella term to encompass the various types of bias motivated events people experience, including hate crimes and hate incidents.
And from the survey findings, we found that anti PI hate was prevalent. Nearly half or 47% of PI adults reported experiencing a hate act due to their race, ethnicity, or nationality in 2024. And harassment such as being called a racial slur was the most common type of hate. Another [00:14:00] 27% of PI adults reported institutional discrimination such as unfair treatment by an employer or at a business.
Miata Tan: That was Connie Tan from Stop. A API hate providing context on how hate affects Pacific Islander communities. Now let’s return to the Pacific Islander Advisory Council who helped Stop A API hate to better understand their reporting on PI communities.
The remaining two members of the council are Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha- Church, a first generation Afro Pacifican educator, speaker and consultant. And we also have Michelle Pedro, who is a California born Marshallese American advocate, and the policy and communications director at Arkansas’s Coalition of the Marshallese.
You’ll also hear the voice of Stephanie Chan, the Director of Data and [00:15:00] Research at Stop A API Hate who led this conversation with the PI Council. Alrighty. Here’s Esella reflecting on her key takeaways from the report and how she sees her community being impacted.
Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha-Church: A piece of data that stood out to me is the six out of 10 PIs who have experienced hate, noted that it was an intersectional experience, that there are multiple facets of their identities that impacted the ways they experienced hate. And in my experience as Afro Pacifican. Nigerian Samoan, born and raised in South Central Los Angeles on Tonga land.
That’s very much been my experience, both in predominantly white spaces and predominantly API spaces as well.
As an educator a piece of data that, that really stood out to me was around the rate at which. Pacific Islanders have to exit education. 20 years as a high school educator, public high school educator and college counselor.
And that was [00:16:00] absolutely my experience when I made the choice to become an educator. And I moved back home from grad school, went back to my neighborhood and went to the school where I had assumed, because when I was little, this is where. My people were, were when I was growing up, I assumed that I would be able to, to put my degrees to use to serve other black PI kids.
And it wasn’t the case. Students were not there. Whole populations of our folks were missing from the community. And as I continued to dig and figure out, or try to figure out why, it was very clear that at my school site in particular, Samoan, Tongan, and Fijian students who were there. We’re not being met where they are.
Their parents weren’t being met where they are. They didn’t feel welcome. Coming into our schools, coming into our districts to receive services or ask for support it was very common that the only students who received support were our students who chose to play sports. Whereas as a theater and literature educator, I, I spent most of my time advocating for [00:17:00] block schedule.
So that my students who I knew had, you know, church commitments after school, family commitments after school I needed to find ways to accommodate them. and I was alone in that fight, right? The entire district, the school the profession was not showing up for our students in the ways that they needed.
Stephanie Chan: Thank you, Estella. Yeah, definitely common themes of, you know, what does belonging mean in our institutions, but also when the US comes to you, as Jamaica pointed out as well. Michelle, I’ll turn it over to you next.
Michelle Pedro: Lakwe and greetings everyone. , A few things that pointed out to me or stood out to me.
Was, um, the mental health aspect mental health is such a, a big thing in our community we don’t like to talk about, especially in the Marshallese community. it’s just in recent years that our youth is talking about it more. And people from my generation are learning about mental health and what it is in this society versus back home.
It is so different. [00:18:00] When people move from Marshall Islands to the United States, the whole entire system is different. The system was not built for people like us, for Marshallese, for Pacific Islanders. It really wasn’t. And so the entire structure needs to do more. I feel like it needs to do more. And the lack of education like Estella said.
Back home. We have a lot of our folks move here who don’t graduate from past like third grade. So the literacy, rate here in Arkansas my friends that our teachers, they say it’s very low and I can only imagine what it is in the Marshallese community here.
And. I hear stories from elders who have lived here for a while that in Arkansas it was a little bit scary living here because they did not feel welcome. They didn’t feel like it was a place that they could express themselves.
A lot of my folks say that they’re tired of their race card, but we [00:19:00] need to talk about race. We don’t know what internal racism is, or systemic racism is in my community. We need to be explaining it to our folks where they understand it and they see it and they recognize it to talk about it more.
Miata Tan: That was Michelle Pedro, Policy and Communications Director at Arkansas Coalition of the Marshallese, and a member of the Stop, A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. Michelle shared with us that hate against Pacific Islander communities affects educational outcomes leading to lower rates of literacy, school attendance, and graduation.
As Esella noted, considering intersectionality can help us to see the full scope of these impacts. Here’s Connie Tan, a research manager at Stop, A API hate with some data on how PI communities are being targeted the toll this takes on their mental and physical [00:20:00] wellbeing.
Connie Tan: And we saw that hate was intersectional. In addition to their race and ethnicity, over six, in 10 or 66% of PI adults said that other aspects of their identity were targeted.
The top three identities targeted were for their age, class, and gender. And experiences with hate have a detrimental impact on the wellbeing of PI Individuals with more than half or about 58% of PI adults reporting negative effects on their mental or physical health. It also impacted their sense of safety and altered their behavior.
So for example, it is evidenced through the disproportionate recruitment of PI people into the military. And athletic programs as a result, many are susceptible to traumatic brain injuries, chronic pain, and even post-traumatic stress disorder.
Miata Tan: That was Connie Tan with Stop. A API Hate. You are tuned [00:21:00] into Apex Express, a weekly radio show, uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders.
You’ll hear more about Connie’s research and the analysis from the Stop. A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council. In a moment.
Stay with us.
[00:22:00] [00:23:00] [00:24:00] [00:25:00]
Miata Tan: That was us by Ruby Ibarra featuring Rocky Rivera, Klassy and Faith Santilla.
You are tuned into Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, A weekly radio show [00:26:00] uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I’m your host Miata Tan.
Tonight we’re focused on our Pacific Islander communities and taking a closer look at a new report on anti Pacific Islander hate from the National Coalition, Stop A API hate.
Before the break the Stop, A API, Pacific Islander Advisory Council shared how mental health challenges, experiences of hate and the effects of US militarization are all deeply interconnected in PI communities.
Connie Tan, a research manager at Stop. A API Hate reflects on how a broader historical context helps to explain why Pacific Islanders experience such high rates of hate.
Here’s Connie.
Connie Tan: We conducted sensemaking sessions with our PI advisory council members, and what we learned is that anti PI hate must be understood [00:27:00] within a broader historical context rooted in colonialism.
Militarization nuclear testing and forced displacement, and that these structural violence continue to shape PI people’s daily lives. And so some key examples include the US overthrow and occupation of Hawaii in the 18 hundreds that led to the loss of Hawaiian sovereignty and cultural suppression. In the 1940s, the US conducted almost 70 nuclear tests across the Marshall Islands that decimated the environment and subjected residents to long-term health problems and forced relocation to gain military dominance.
The US established a compacts of free association in the 1980s that created a complex and inequitable framework of immigration status that left many PI communities with limited access to federal benefits. The COVID-19 pandemic exposed a disproportionate health impacts in PI communities due to the historical lack of disaggregated data, unequal access to health benefits, [00:28:00] and a lack of culturally responsive care.
And most recently, there are proposed or already enacted US travel bans targeting different Pacific Island nations, continuing a legacy of exclusion. So when we speak of violence harm. Injustice related to anti P hate. It must be understood within this larger context.
Miata Tan: That was Connie Tan at Stop. A API hate. Now let’s get back to the Pacific Islander Advisory Council who are helping us to better understand the findings from the recent report from Stop. A API hate focused on hate acts against the Pacific Islander communities.
I will pass the reins over to Stephanie Chan. Stephanie’s the director of Data and Research at Stop A API Hate who led this recent conversation with the PI Advisory Council. Here’s Stephanie.
[00:29:00]
Stephanie Chan: The big mental health challenges as well as the issues of acceptance and belonging and like what that all means. I, I think a lot of you spoke to this but let’s get deeper. What are some of the historical or cultural factors that shape how PI communities experience racism or hate today?
Let’s start with Estella.
Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha-Church: Thank you for the question, Stephanie. A piece of data that, stood out to me, it was around the six outta 10 won’t report to formal authority agencies. And earlier it was mentioned that there’s a need For strategies outside policing.
I think that, to everything that, Jamaica’s already stated and, and what’s been presented in the, the data why would we report, when the state itself has been harmful to us collectively.
The other thing I can speak to in my experience is again, I’ll, I’ll say that an approach of intersectionality is, is a must because says this too in the report, more than [00:30:00] 57% of our communities identify as multiracial, multi-ethnic.
And so in addition to. Who we are as Pacific Islander, right? Like many of us are also half Indigenous, half black, half Mexican, et cetera. List goes on. And there’s, there needs to be enough space for all of us, for the whole of us to be present in our communities and to, to do the work, whatever the work may be, whatever sector you’re in, whether health or education.
Policy or in data. And intersectional approach is absolutely necessary to capture who we are as a whole. And the other, something else that was mentioned in the report was around misinformation and that being something that needs to be combated in particular today. Um, and I see this across several communities.
The, AI videos are, are a bit outta control. Sort of silly, but still kind of serious. Example comes to mind, recent a very extensive conversation. I didn’t feel like having, uh, with, [00:31:00] with my uncles around whether or not Tupac is alive because AI videos Are doing a whole lot that they shouldn’t be doing.
And it’s, it’s a goofy example, but an example nonetheless, many of our elders are using social media or on different platforms and the misinformation and disinformation is so loud, it’s difficult to continue to do our work. And educate, or in some cases reeducate. And make sure that, the needs of our community that is highlighted in this report are being adjusted.
Stephanie Chan: Thank you. Yeah. And a whole new set of challenges with the technology we have today. Uh, Michelle, do you wanna speak to the historical and cultural factors that have shaped how PI communities experience racism today?
Michelle Pedro: Our experience is, it’s inseparable to the US nuclear legacy and just everything that Estella was saying, a standard outside of policing.
Like why is the only solution incarceration or most of the solutions involve [00:32:00] incarceration. You know, if there’s other means of taking care of somebody we really need to get to the root causes, right? Instead of incarceration. And I feel like a lot of people use us, but not protect us.
And the experiences that my people feel they’re going through now is, it’s just as similar than when we were going through it during COVID. I.
Here in Arkansas.
More than half of people that, uh, the death rates were Marshallese. And most of those people were my relatives. And so going to these funerals, I was just like, okay, how do I, how do I go to each funeral without, you know, if I get in contact to COVID with COVID without spreading that? And, you know, I think we’ve been conditioned for so long to feel ashamed, to feel less than.
I feel like a lot of our, our folks are coming out of that and feeling like they can breathe again. But with the [00:33:00] recent administration and ice, it’s like, okay, now we have to step back into our shell. And we’re outsiders again,
thankfully here in, uh, Northwest Arkansas, I think there’s a lot of
people who. have empathy towards the Marshallese community and Pacific Islanders here. And they feel like we can, we feel like we can rely on our neighbors. Somebody’s death and, or a group of people’s deaths shouldn’t, be a reason why we, we come together. It should be a reason for, wanting to just be kind to each other.
And like Estella said, we need to educate but also move past talks and actually going forward with policy changes and stuff like that.
Stephanie Chan: Thank you Michelle. And yes, we’ll get to the policy changes in a second. I would love to hear. What all of our panelists think about what steps we need to take.
Uh, Isa I’m gonna turn it over to you to talk about historical or cultural factors that shape how PI communities experience racism today.
Isa Kelawili Whalen: [00:34:00] Many, if not all, Pacific Islander families or communities that I know of or I’m a part of, we don’t wanna get in trouble.
And what does that really mean? We don’t wanna be incarcerated by racially biased jurisdictions. Um, we don’t wanna be deported. We don’t want to be revoked of our citizenship for our rights or evicted or fired. All things that we deem at risk at all times. It’s always on the table whenever we engage with the American government.
Even down to something as simple as filling out a census form. And so I think it’s important to know also that at the core of many of our Pacifica cultures, strengthening future generations is at the center. Every single time. I mean, with everything that our elders have carried, have fought for, have sacrificed for, to bring us to where we are today.
It’s almost like if someone calls you a name or they give you a dirty look, or maybe even if they get physical with you on a sidewalk. Those are things we just swallow. ‘ cause you have to, there’s so much on the table so much at risk that we cannot afford to lose. [00:35:00] And unfortunately, majority of the times it’s at the cost of yourself.
It is. That mistrust with everything that’s at risk with keeping ourselves, our families, and future generations. To continue being a part of this American society, it makes it really, really hard for us to navigate racism and hate in comparison to, I would say, other ethnic groups.
Stephanie Chan: Definitely. And the mistrust in the government is not gonna get better in this context. It’s only gonna get worse. Jamaica, do you wanna speak to the question of the historical and cultural factors that shape how PI communities experience racism?
Dr. Jamaica Heolimeleikalani Osorio: Absolutely. You know, without risking sounding like a broken record, I think one of the most meaningful things that many of us share across the Pacific is the violence of us. Uh, not just us, but in imperial militarization and nuclear testing. and I think it’s easy for folks. Outside of the Pacific to forget that that’s actually ongoing, right?
That there are military occupations ongoing in Hawaii, in [00:36:00] Guam, in Okinawa, uh, that our people are being extracted out of their communities to serve in the US military in particular, out of Samoa, the highest per capita rate of folks being enlisted into the US on forces, which is insane. Um, so I don’t want that to go unnamed as something that is both historical.
And ongoing and related to the kind of global US imperial violence that is taking place today that the Pacific is is this. Point of departure for so much of that ongoing imperial violence, which implicates us, our lands, our waters, and our peoples, and that as well. And that’s something that we have to reckon with within the overall context of, experiencing hate in and around the so-called United States.
But I also wanna touch on, The issue of intersectionality around, um, experiencing hate in the PI community and, and in particular thinking about anti-blackness, both the PI community and towards the PI community. Uh, [00:37:00] and I Understanding the history of the way white supremacy has both been inflicted upon our people and in many cases internalized within our people.
And how anti-blackness in particular has been used as a weapon from within our communities to each other while also experiencing it from the outside. Is something that is deeply, deeply impacting our people. I’m thinking both the, the personal, immediate experience of folks experiencing or practicing anti-blackness in our community.
But I’m also thinking about the fact that we have many examples of our own organizations and institutions Reinforcing anti-blackness, uh, being unwilling to look at the way that anti-blackness has been reinterpreted through our own cultural practices to seem natural. I’ll speak for myself.
I’ve, I’ve seen this on a personal level coming out of our communities and coming into our communities. I’ve seen this on a structural level. you know, we saw the stat in the report that there’s a high percentage of PIs who believe that cross racial solidarity is [00:38:00] important, and there’s a high percentage of PIs who are saying that they want to be involved and are being involved in trying to make a difference, uh, against racial injustice in this godforsaken.
Country, Um, that work will never be effective if we cannot as a community really take on this issue of anti-blackness and how intimately it has seeped into some of our most basic assumptions about what it means to be Hawaiian, about what it means to be Polynesian, about what it means to be, any of these other, uh, discreet identities.
We hold as a part of the Pacific.
Miata Tan: That was Dr. Jamaica Osorio, an Associate Professor of Indigenous and Native Hawaiian politics and a member of the Stop A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council.
Dr. Jamaica was reflecting on the new report from Stop. A API Hate that focuses on instances of hate against Pacific Islander [00:39:00] communities.
We’ll hear more from the PI Advisory Council in a moment. Stay with us.
[00:40:00] [00:41:00] [00:42:00] [00:43:00] That was Tonda by Diskarte Namin .
You are tuned into Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. I am your host Miata Tan, and tonight we’re centering our Pacific Islander communities. Stop. A API Hate is a national coalition that tracks and responds to anti-Asian American and Pacific Islander hate.
Their latest report found that nearly half of Pacific Islander [00:44:00] adults experienced an act of hate in 2024 because of their race, ethnicity, or nationality.
Connie Tan is a research manager at Stop, A API Hate who led the charge on this new report. Here she is sharing some community recommendations on how we can all help to reduce instances of harm and hate against Pacific Islander communities.
Connie Tan: So to support those impacted by hate, we’ve outlined a set of community recommendations for what community members can do if they experience hate, and to take collective action against anti P. Hate first. Speak up and report hate acts. Reporting is one of the most powerful tools we have to ensure harms against PI.
Communities are addressed and taken seriously. You can take action by reporting to trusted platforms like our Stop API Hate Reporting Center, which is available in 21 languages, including Tongan, Samoan, and Marshall. [00:45:00] Second, prioritize your mental health and take care of your wellbeing. We encourage community members to raise awareness by having open conversations with loved ones, family members, and elders about self-care and mental wellness, and to seek services in culturally aligned and trusted spaces.
Third, combat misinformation in the fight against. It is important to share accurate and credible information and to combat anti PI rhetoric. You can view our media literacy page to learn more. Fourth, know your rights and stay informed During this challenging climate, it is important to stay up to date and know your rights.
There are various organizations offering Know your rights materials, including in Pacific Islander languages, and finally participate in civic engagement and advocacy. Civic engagement is one of the most effective ways to combat hate, whether it is participating in voting or amplifying advocacy efforts.
Miata Tan: That [00:46:00] was Connie Tan, a research manager at Stop. A API Hate. As Connie shared, there’s a lot that can be done to support Pacific Islander communities from taking collective action against hate through reporting and combating misinformation to participating in civic engagement and advocacy.
I’ll pass the reins back over to Stephanie Chen, the director of Data and Research at Stop A API Hate. Stephanie is speaking with the Stop, A API hate Pacific Islander Advisory Council, zeroing in on where we can go from here in addressing hate against Pacific Islander communities.
Stephanie Chan: We’ve heard a lot, a lot about the pain of anti PI hate, we’ve heard a lot about the pain of just, ongoing militarization displacement government distrust problems with education.
Anti-blackness. what three things would you name as things that [00:47:00] we need to do?
What changes actions or policies we need to do to move forward, on these issues? And I’m gonna start with Isa.
Isa Kelawili Whalen: Thank you Stephanie. Um, I’ll try and go quickly here, but three policy areas. I’d love to get everyone engaged. One, data disaggregation. Pacific Islanders were constantly told that we don’t have the data, so how could we possibly know what you guys are experiencing or need, and then.
When we do have the data, it’s always, oh, but you don’t have enough numbers to meet this threshold, to get those benefits. Data informs policy, policy informs data. Again, thank you. Stop. I hate for having us here to talk about that also, but definitely continue fighting for data disaggregation. Second thing I would say.
Climate resiliency, uh, supporting it and saying no to deep sea mining in our Pacifica waters. History of violence again with our land and sea. There’s been a number in the, in the chat and one to name the nuclear warfare and bikini at toll, where after wiping out the people, the culture, the island itself, the United States promised reparations and to never harm again in that [00:48:00] way, but.
Here we are. And then third language access, quite literally access, just access, um, to all things that the average English speaking person or learner has. So I’d say those three.
Stephanie Chan: Thank you. Well, we’ll move on to Jamaica. Uh, what do you think are the actions or policies that we need?
Dr. Jamaica Heolimeleikalani Osorio: Uh, we need to demilitarize the Pacific. We need to shut down military bases. We need to not renew military leases. We need to not allow the US government to condemn lands, to expand their military footprint in the Pacific.
I think one of the points that came up time and time again around not reporting is again, not feeling like anything’s gonna happen, but two, who are we reporting to and we’re reporting to states and systems that have contained us, that have violated us and that have hurt us.
So yeah, demilitarization, abolition in the broadest sense, both thinking about Discreet carceral institutions, but then also the entire US governing system. And three I’ll just make it a little smaller, like fuck ice, and tear that shit [00:49:00] down. Like right now, there are policy change issues related to ICE and carceral institutions, but I’m really thinking about kind of. Incredible mobilization that’s taking place in particular in, in Minneapolis and the way people are showing up for their neighbors across racial, gender, and political spectrums.
And so outside of this discrete policy changes that we need to fight for, we need more people in the streets showing up to protect each other. and in doing so, building the systems and the, the communities and the institutions that we will need to arrive in a new world.
Stephanie Chan: Great word, Michelle.
Michelle Pedro: I’m just gonna add on to what, Isa said about language, access justice, equity, also protection of access to healthcare. in terms of what Ika said yes. Three West, Papua New Guinea, yeah, thank you for having me here.
Stephanie Chan: Thank you. And Ella, you wanna bring us home on the policy question?
Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha-Church: I’m from South Central LA Ice melts around here. yes to everything that has been said, in [00:50:00] particular, I think the greatest policy issue. Impact in our folks is demil, demilitarization.
And that also goes to the active genocide that is happening in the Pacific and has been ongoing. And as a broader API community, it’s a conversation we don’t ever have and have not had uh, regularly. So yes to all that. And risk, it sounded like a broken record too. I think, uh, education is a huge.
Part of the issue here, I think access to real liberated ethnic studies for all of our folks is absolutely crucial to continuing generation after generation, being able to continue the demil fight to continue. To show up for our folks for our islands in diaspora and back home on our islands.
You know, the, the report said that, uh, we are 1.6 million strong here in the United States and that our populations continue to grow, fortunately, unfortunately here in the us. And that [00:51:00] we are a multi-ethnic, um, group of folks and that, That demands, it’s an imperative that our approach to education, to political education, to how we show up for community, how we organize across faith-based communities has to be intersectional.
It has to be it has to be pro-black. It has to be pro Indigenous because that is who we are as a people. We are black. And Indigenous populations all wrapped up into one. And any way we approach policy change has to come from a pro-black, pro Indigenous stance.
Stephanie Chan: Thank you, Estella. We did have a question about education and how we actually make.
PI studies happen. do you have anything you wanna elaborate on, how do we get school districts and state governments to prioritize PI history, especially K through 12?
Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha-Church: I’m gonna say with the caveat of under this current regime. Any regular tactics I’m used to employing may not be viable at this current [00:52:00] moment.
But my regular go-to will always be to tell parents you have the most power in school districts to show up at your local school board meetings and demand that there is liberated ethnic studies and be conscious and cognizant about the, the big ed tech companies that districts are hiring to bring.
Some fake, uh, ethnic studies. It’s not real ethnic studies. And there are also quite a few ethnic studies or programs that are out there parading as ethnic studies that are 100% coming from the alt-right. 100% coming from Zionist based organizations That are not, doing ethnic studies actually doing a disservice to ethnic studies.
And the other thing I’ll say for API organizations that are doing the work around ethnic studies and, and pushing for Asian American studies legislation state by state. We’re also doing a disservice because in many situations or many cases where legislation has passed for Asian American studies, it’s been at the [00:53:00] detriment of black, brown, queer, and Indigenous communities.
And that’s not the spirit of ethnic studies. And so first I’d say for parents. Exercise your right as a parent in your local district and be as loud as you possibly can be, and organize parent pods that are gonna do the fight for you, and then reach out to folks. My number one recommendation is always liberated ethnic studies model consortium curriculum, for a group of badass educators who were, who are gonna show up for community whenever called.
Miata Tan: That was Tu‘ulau‘ulu Estella Owoimaha- Church discussing how we can help to encourage school districts and state governments to prioritize Pacific Islander education.
A big thank you to the Stop, A API Hate team and their Pacific Islander Advisory Council. Your work is vital and we appreciate you all. Thank you for speaking with us [00:54:00] today.
Miata Tan: [00:55:00] That final track was a little snippet from the fantastic Zhou Tian check out Hidden Grace. It’s a truly fabulous song.
This is Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, A weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders. Apex Express Airs every Thursday evening at 7:00 PM And with that, we’re unfortunately nearing the end of our time here tonight. thank you so much for tuning into the show.
And another big thank you to the Stop, A API Hate Team and their Pacific Islander Advisory Council. We appreciate your work so much.
One final note, if you are listening to this live, then it’s February 12th, meaning Lunar New Year is [00:56:00] just around the corner.
For listeners who might not be familiar, Lunar New Year is a major celebration for many in the Asian diaspora, a fresh start marked by family, food, and festivities. This year we are welcoming in the Year of the Horse, and you can join the celebrations too.
On Saturday, March 7th, San Francisco will come alive with the year of the horse parade, and this weekend you can check out the Chinatown Flower Market Fair Head to Grant Avenue for fresh flowers, arts activities, and cultural performances.
On Tuesday, February 24th, the San Francisco Public Library will Drumbeats, Heartbeats: Community as One . this event will honor Lunar New Year and Black History Month with Lion Dancers, poetry, and more.
Across the bay, Oakland celebrates their Lunar New Year parade on Saturday, February 28th.
From more [00:57:00] parades to night markets and museum events, celebrations will be happening all over the Bay Area and beyond. We hope you enjoy this opportunity to gather, reflect, and welcome in the new year with joy.
For show notes, please visit our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/apex-express. On the webpage for this episode, we’ve added links to the Stop, A API Hate Report on Anti Pacific Islander, hate from data on how hate is impacting PI communities to information on what you can do to help. This report is well worth the read.
Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me , Miata Tan. Get some rest y’all.
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The post APEX Express – 2.12.26 – Anti-Pacific Islander Hate Amid Ongoing Injustice appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 2.5.26-Envisioning Hopeful Futures
5 helmi· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Envisioning Hopeful Futures
Host Miko Lee speaks with two Bay Area artists, activists, and social change makers: Tara Dorabji and Cece Carpio. Both of these powerful people have been kicking it up in the bay for a minute. They worked in arts administration as community organizers and as artist activists.

LINKS TO OUR GUESTS WORK
Tara Dorabji Author’s website
New book Call Her Freedom
Find more information about what is happening in Kashmir Stand With Kashmir
Cece Carpio
Tabi Tabi Po running at Somarts

SHOW Transcript
Opening Music: Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.
Miko Lee: Good evening. I’m your host Miko Lee, and tonight I have the pleasure of speaking with two Bay Area local artists, activists, and social change makers, Tara Dorabji and Cece Carpio. Both of these powerful people have been kicking it up in the bay for a minute. They worked in arts administration as community organizers and as artist activists. I so love aligning with these multi hyphenated women whose works you can catch right now. First up, I talk with my longtime colleague, Tara Dorabji Tara is an award-winning writer whose first book Call Her Freedom just came out in paperback. And I just wanna give a little background that over a decade ago I met Tara at a workshop with the Great Marshall Gantz, and we were both asked to share our stories with the crowd. During a break, Tara came up to me and said, Hey, are you interested in joining our radio show, Apex Express? And that began my time with Apex and the broader Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality community. So if you hear a tinge of familiarity and warmth in the interview, that’s because it’s real and the book is so great. Please check it out and go to a local bookstore and listen next to my chat with Tara. Welcome Tara Dorabji to Apex Express.
Tara Dorabji: Thank you so much for having me. It’s wonderful to be with you, Miko.
Miko Lee: And you’re actually the person who pulled me into Apex Express many a moon ago, and so now times have changed and I’m here interviewing you about your book Call Her Freedom, which just was released in paperback, right?
Tara Dorabji: Yep. It’s the one year book-anniversary.
Miko Lee: Happy book anniversary. Let’s go back and start with a little bit for our audience. They may have heard you, if they’ve been a long time Apex listener, but you as an artist, as a creator, as a change maker tell me who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
Tara Dorabji: Who are my people? My people I would say are those who really align with truth. Truth in the heart. That’s like at the very core of it. And I’m from the Bay Area. I’ve been organizing in the Bay a long time. I started out organizing around contaminated sites from nuclear weapons. I’ve moved into organizing with young people and supporting storytelling. So arts and culture has been a huge part of it. Of course, KPFA has been a big part of my journey, amplifying stories that have been silenced, and I think in terms of legacy, I’ve been thinking about this more and more. I think it goes into two categories for me. One are the relationships and who remembers you and and those deep heart connections.
So that’s one part. And then for my artistry, it’s the artists that come and can create. On the work that I’ve done and from that create things that I couldn’t even imagine. And so I really think that’s the deepest gift is not the art that you’re able to make, but what you create so that others can continue to create.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing the deep kind of legacy and sense of collaboration that you’ve had with all these different artists that you’ve worked with and it’s, your work is very powerful. I read it a year ago when it first came out, and I love that it’s out in paper back now. Can you tell our audience what inspired Call her Freedom.
Tara Dorabji: Call Her Freedom is very much inspired by the independence movement in Indian occupied Kashmir. And for me it was during the summer uprisings when, and this was way back in, In 2010-2009, after the Arab Spring and for the entire summer, Kashmir would be striking. It would shut down from mothers, grandmothers, women, children in the street.
This huge nonviolent uprising, and I was really drawn to how it’s both one of the most militarized zones on earth. And how there was this huge nonviolent uprising happening and questions about what it could look like, even like liberation beyond the nation state. And so I was really drawn to that. My dad’s from Bombay, from Mumbai, that’s the occupying side of it, and ethnically we’re Parsi.
So from Persia a thousand years ago. And so I think for me, at a personal level, there’s this question of, okay, my people have been welcomed and assimilated for generations, and yet you have indigenous folks to the region that are under a complete seizure and occupation as part of the post-colonial legacy.
And so I went and when I went to Kashmir for the first time was in 2011, and I was there. Right when the state was verifying mass graves and was able to meet with human rights workers and defenders, and there was a woman whose husband had disappeared and she talked to me about going to the graves and she told me, she said I wanted to crawl in and hug those bones.
Those are the lost and stolen brothers, sons, uncles, those are our people. And another woman I spoke to talked about how it gave her hope for the stories to carry beyond the region and for other people to hear them. And so that became a real core part of my work and really what call her freedom is born from.
Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing and I know that you did a film series and I wonder if you could about Kashmir and about what’s going on, and I think that’s great because so many times we in American media don’t really hear what’s going on in these occupied lands. Can you talk a little bit about how the interconnectedness of your film series and the book and was that part of your research? Was it woven together? How did you utilize those two art forms?
Tara Dorabji: I think we’re both accidental filmmakers. That might be another way that our cross, our paths cross. In terms of medium. So for me, I was actually working with Youth Speaks the Brave New Voices Network at that time and doing a lot of short form.
So video content, three minutes, 10 minutes, six minutes. And it was playing really well and what I was seeing coming outta kir by local filmmakers was beautiful, gorgeous, highly repressed work generally, longer form, and not always immediately accessible to an audience that didn’t have context, that hadn’t been, didn’t understand.
And my thinking was this was a gap I could fill. I had experience, not as a filmmaker, but like overseeing film teams doing the work, right? And then here are some of the most silent stories of our time. So when I went back to do book research in 2018, I was like, Hey, why don’t I make some short form films now? I didn’t even know what I was getting into. And also I think. When you go in as a novelist, you’re absorbing your hearing and it takes time. There’s no clock. It was, it’s been the hardest project to get from start to finish. And I couldn’t be like, okay, Miko, like I’ve done it once. Now this is how you do it.
And when people trust you with their story, there’s an urgency. So throughout the whole project, I was always seeking form. So my first trip went straight to KPFA radio. Took the stories, project sensor, took the stories, and so I wanted to build on that. And so the documentary films provided a more some are, I’m still working on, but there was some immediacy that I could release, at least the first film and the second film, and also I could talk about how can this work dovetail with campaigns happening on the ground and how can my work accelerate what human rights defenders are doing? So the first film here still was released with the first comprehensive report on torture from the region. And so it gave that report a whole different dimension in terms of conversation and accessibility. It was a difficult film but necessary, and because I had to spend so much time with.
It was a difficult film but necessary, and because I had to spend so much time with transcribing, watching the footage over and over again, it really did inform my research from the B-roll to sitting and hearing the content and also for what people were willing to share. I think people shared in a different way during video interviews than when I was there for novel research. So it worked really well. And what I am, I think most proud of is that the work was able to serve what people were doing in a really good way, even though it’s really difficult work.
Miko Lee: It built on the communication strategies of those issues like the torture report and others that you’re working on.
Tara Dorabji: Exactly. And in that way I wasn’t just coming and taking stories, I was applying storytelling to the legal advocacy strategies that were underway. And, you make mistakes, so it’s not like there weren’t difficulties in the production and all of that. And then also being able to work with creatives on the ground and at times it just. You, it became increasingly difficult, like any type of money going out was too heavily scrutinized. But for a time you could work with creatives as part of the projects in the region and then that’s also super exciting.

[00:11:18] Miko Lee: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more, I heard you say something about how the, when people are telling your story for the novel versus telling the story for the video that the cadence changes. Can you share a little bit more about what you mean by that?

Tara Dorabji: Yeah, I think when I’m doing novel research, it’s very expansive, so I’m dealing with these really big questions like, what is freedom? How do you live in it? How do you, how do you choose freedom when your rights are being eroded? And so that conversation, you could take me in so many different directions, but if I am focused on a very specific, okay, I’m doing a short documentary film around torture, we’re gonna go into those narratives.
Or if I’m coming with a film medium, like people just see it differently and they’ll speak and tell their stories differently than with a novel. It’s gonna be fictionalized. Some of it might get in there or not. And also with a novel, I don’t ever, I don’t take people and apply them to fiction. I have characters that like, I guess come to me and then they’re threaded through with reality.
So one character may hold anecdotes from like dozens of different people and are threaded through. And so in that way you’re just taking like bits and pieces become part of it, but. You don’t get to see yourself in the same way that you do with the film. So in some ways. It can be safer when the security environment is as extreme as is as it is right now. But there’s also this real important part of documentary film where it’s people are expressing themselves in their own words, and I’m just curating the container.
Miko Lee: Was there an issue like getting film out during the time that you were doing the documentary work? Because I’ve heard from other folks that were in Kashmir that were talking about smuggling film, trying to upload it and finding different, did you have to deal with any of that, or was that before the hardest crackdown?
Tara Dorabji: I mean there were, there’s been series, so 2019 was abrogation where there was a six month media blockade. And so just your ability to upload and download. And so that was after I had been there. The environment was there was challenges to the environment. I was there for a short time and you just come and you go. You just do what you’re gonna do and you be discreet.
Miko Lee: And what is going on in Kashmir now?
Tara Dorabji: The situation is really difficult. One of the lead leads of the report on torture and coordinator from the human rights group that put, that helped put out that report has been incarcerated for four years Koran Perve.
Miko Lee: Based on what?
Tara Dorabji: His human rights work. So they’ve just been detaining him and the United Nations keeps calling for his release.
Miko Lee: And what do they give a reason even?
Tara Dorabji: They, it’s yeah, they give all kinds of trumped up charges about the state and terrorism and this and that. And also. One of the journalists and storyteller and artists in the first film that I released, Iran Raj, he’s been incarcerated for two years. He was taken shortly after he was married, the press, the media has been dismantled. So there was, prolific local press. Now it’s very few and it’s all Indian State sponsored narrative propaganda coming through.
] Miko Lee: How are concerned folks here in the US able to get any news about what’s happening in Kashmere, what’s really going down?
ara Dorabji: It’s really hard. Stand with cashmere is a really good source. That’s one. There’s cashmere awareness. There’s a few different outlets that cover what happens, but it’s very difficult to be getting the information and there’s a huge amount of repression. So I definitely think the more instagram orgs, like the organizations that go straight to the ground and then are having reels and short information and stories on Instagram is some of the most accurate information because the longer form journalism. It is just not happening right now. In that way people are being locked up and the press is being dismantled and people running, the papers are being charged. It’s just horrendous. Entire archives are being pulled and destroyed. So hard. Really hard. So those, Stand With Kashmir is my go-to source, and then I see where else they’re looking.
Miko Lee: So your book Call Her Freedom is a fictionalized version, but it’s based around the real situation of what’s been going on in Kashmir. Can you share a little bit more about your book, about what people should expect and about what you want them to walk away with understanding.
Tara Dorabji: It’s a mother daughter story. It’s a love story. It’s about love and loss and families, how you find home when it’s taken. And the mom is no Johan. She’s a healer. She’s a midwife. She has a complex relationship with her daughter and she haunts the book. So the story told from multiple points of view, we never get and ignore the mom’s head, but. She comes back as she has a lot to say. And I think it’s interesting too because in this village that’s largely run by men, you have these two women living by themselves and really determining their own fate.
And a lot of it has to do with both nors ability to look at ancient healing practices, but also a commitment that her daughter gets educated. And so she really like positions her daughter in between the worlds and all the while you have increasing militarization. And Aisha starts as a young girl just starting school.
And then at the end of the story, she’s a grandmother. We get to see her relationships evolve, her relationship with love evolve, and a lot of the imperfections in it. And one of the things in writing this is when you’re dealing. Living in occupation, there’s still the day-to-day challenges that so many of us endure. And you have these other layers that are horrific.
Miko Lee: Yeah. And I’m wondering how much of yourself as a mother you embedded into the book as a mother, as an activist, as a mother of daughters, how much of yourself do you feel like you put into the book?
Tara Dorabji: A ton. It’s my heart and spirit in there. And there were some really, there’s this scene where the mom does die, and I actually wrote that before my mom passed away. And I do remember like after my mom died, going through and editing that part. And it was just like. It was really, it was super intense and yeah, I mean it definitely made me cry and it was also like the emotion was already there, which was interesting for me to have written it before but then have it come back and a full circle, I think.
Miko Lee: So did you change it after you experienced your own mom dying?
Tara Dorabji: It was soft edits. In my second novel, there’s a scene and it, that one completely changed ’cause I didn’t hit the emotion. Emotional tenor, right? It’s funny, but in this one it was pretty good. I was like, I did pretty good on that one. But yeah, so it was just like tinkering with it a little. I think also my daughters were about four when I started.
Miko Lee: Oh, wow.
Tara Dorabji: And it came out as, when they’re 18. So the other part was I was able to use their age references constantly throughout it because. I could just map to what it’s like being a mom of a kid that age. So I did ob yeah, definitely used my own. So it’s an amalgam and also it’s fictionalized. So in the book, it’s not Kashmir, it’s Poshkarbal there’s right a village. And so trying to take people out of something that they can identify as reality, but then at the same time, you can see the threads of reality and create a new experience.
Miko Lee: So since you brought that up, tell us about the next book that you’re working on right now.
Tara Dorabji: Yes, it’s still very much in a draft form, but takes place here in the Bay Area. Similar themes around militarization, family secret love, lineage loss, and part of it’s in Livermore Home to one of the world’s nuclear weapons lab. Mm-hmm. Part of it’s in San Francisco, so exploring into the future tech, AI, and. There’s an underpinning around humans’ relationship to technology, and I think at this point. We know that technology isn’t gonna solve the crisis of technology. And so also looking at our relationship to land and culture and lineage. So there’s, it’s about, now I’m looking at about a hundred year span in it.
Miko Lee: Wow. Really?
Tara Dorabji: Yeah. Contained with the geography of the Bay Area
Miko Lee: Toward the future. Toward the past?
Tara Dorabji: both past and future
Miko Lee: Whoa. Interesting.
Tara Dorabji: Yeah.
Miko Lee: I’m reading Empire of AI right now. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but, oh, the AI stuff is so deeply disturbing about humanity. You’re really thinking about where we’re going, so I’m curious to find out your fictionalized versions of the impact.
Tara Dorabji: It’s a major change we’re going through. Yeah, and you and I grew up in a time when we didn’t have cell phones and we used maps, and Yeah. If I was gonna meet you, I had to be there and we’d have to make a plan in advance and yeah. It’s just shifting so rapidly. So we went
Miko Lee: through that. Even how to read a, how to read a clock like my girls, I had to show them as adults how to read a clock. Wow, I didn’t realize these things. Our world is so digitized that even the most basic, that concepts ha how are shifting and even fine motor skills. Like most young people do not have good, fine motor skills.
Tara Dorabji: Yeah.
Miko Lee: Because they’re just used to being on their phone all the time.
Tara Dorabji: Yes, and the, and I would give it is during the rain over the holidays, there is just always a family out with a small child in their yellow rain boots. And the kid like reaching into the tree, grabbing, smelling it dad or mom holding them. And so there are these anchors.
Miko Lee: Yeah.
Tara Dorabji: And even though humanity is accelerating in this one way, that’s very scary and digitize. It’s like the anchor of the earth in our community and our relationships still is holding us. Some of, you know, there’s still that pull. And so I think that how people form their communities in the future and the way that.
The choices that are gonna be made are just gonna become increasingly difficult. We faced it in our generation, parenting around cell phones, social media. We’re seeing that impact of the suicidality, all of those things coming up. And that’s gonna accelerate. So I do think it’s, definitely a major change in transition some dark times, but also some really beautiful possibilities still rooting in our communities and in the world.
Miko Lee: And because we both work in movement spaces, I’m really curious I heard you talk a lot about connection and land and I’m just curious in your book. I got this vibe and I know a lot of the work that we do in the community. I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit on the land back movement internationally. In so many of those spaces, women are at the forefront of that. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that.
Tara Dorabji: That’s one of the most exciting things happening right now is the land back movement. In my younger days when I was studying what determines a woman’s quality of life internationally at a scale, it’s, it was really came down to land ownership. So in societies where land ownership went to women, they were able, and it was like. Outpaced by far, education and those other things is like that access to the land and the resource in that way.
And land back is an acceleration of that, and I think particularly when we’re looking at a lot of questions around philanthropy, spun downs, how it’s done. When you transition an asset back into the community as land and land stewardship, right? Because then there’s like the ownership for the stewardship and yeah, the different ways that it’s done.
But that is a lasting impact for that community. And so often when you’re investing in women. Then it goes not just in terms of their quality of life, but the children, right? And the whole community tends to benefit from that. And I think even looking at Kir in the, one of the things that always has fascinated me is Kashmir during, it was independence was a carve up by the British, so that’s a post-colonial strategy to keep people fighting. That has been very successful in the subcontinent. Kashmir had
Miko Lee: all over the world.
Tara Dorabji: Exactly. And Kashmir had a semi-autonomous status. That’s what was really stripped in 2019, was that article from the Constitution. And so in the very early days when their autonomy was stronger, they started some pretty revolutionary land reforms. And so there was actually clauses where the people that were working the land could have it. And people Kashmiris were transferring land. To two other cashmeres. And so it was this radical re resource redistribution and you have a really strong legacy of feminism and women protesting and leading in Kashmir and I think that part from my perspective is that was a threat. This fear of redistribution of resources, land distribution other areas started to follow suit and the nation state didn’t want that to happen. They wanted a certain type of concentration of wealth. And so I think that was one of the factors that.
There were many, but I do think that was one that contributed to it. So I do think this idea of land backed land reform is extraordinarily important, and particularly looking at our own relationship with it. How do we steward it? How do we stop stripping the land? Of its resources and start realigning our relationship to it where humans are supposed to be the caretakers. Not the ones taking from.
Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. I was thinking so much about your book, but also about the movement that we live in and the more positive visions of the future. Because right now it’s devastating all the things that are happening in our communities. So I’m trying to be a bit hopeful and honestly just to keep through it make sure that we get through each day. Given so many of our brothers and sisters are at risk right now I’m wondering what gives you hope these days?
Tara Dorabji: Yeah, a lot of things do, I think like when I do try to take the breaths for the grief and the devastation because that loss of life is deep and it’s heavy and it’s real and it’s mounting. So one, not to shy away from feeling it. Obviously not, it’s hard. You don’t want to 24 7, but when it comes in to let it come in and move through. And for me it’s also this idea of not. It’s just like living in hope. How do you live each moment and hope? And so a big part of it for me is natural beauty, like just noticing the beauty around me and filling myself up in it because that can never be taken away. And I think also in some of the most violent acts that are being committed right now, the way people are meeting them with a pure heart.
Miko Lee: Yeah.
Tara Dorabji: It’s like you can’t stop, like that’s unstoppable is like that beauty and that purity and that love. And so to try to live in love, to try to ground in hope and to try to really take in the beauty. And then also like how do we treat each other day to day, and really take the time to be kind to one another. To slow it down and connect. So there are, these are tremendously difficult times. I think that reality of instability, political violence, assassination, disappearances, paramilitary have come visibly. They’ve been in the country, but at a, in the US at a more quiet pace, and now it’s so visible and visceral
Miko Lee: And blatant. Yeah. It’s just out there. There’s no, they’re not hiding about it. They’re just out there saying out there, roaming the streets of Minnesota right now and other states to come. It’s pretty wild.
Tara Dorabji: Yeah. And I think that the practice is not to move in fear. The grief is there, the rage and outrage can be there. But the love and the beauty exists in our communities and and in the young people.
Miko Lee: Yeah.
Tara Dorabji: And our elders too. There’s so much wisdom in our, in the elders. So really soaking up those lessons as much as possible.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for chatting with me and I hope everybody that checks out your book call Her Freedom, which has gotten some acclaim, won some awards, been out there, people can have access to it in Paper Book. We’ll put a link in our show notes so people can have access to buy it from an independent bookstore.
Tara Dorabji: Thank you so much. Wonderful to catch up and thank you for all your work on Apex as well.
Miko Lee: Thank you. Next up, take a listen to “Live It Up” by Bay Area’s Power Struggle.

MUSIC “Live It Up” by Bay Area’s Power Struggle.
Next up I chat with Visual artist, cultural strategist and Dream Weaver, Cece Carpio about her solo exhibition that is up and running right now at SOMArts through March. Welcome, Cece Carpio to Apex Express.

[00:33:37] Cece Carpio: Thank you for having me here.

[00:33:39] Miko Lee: I am so excited to talk with you, and I wanna start with my very first question that I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
[00:33:52] Cece Carpio: That’s a packed question and something I love. just in terms of where I come from, I was born and raised in the Philippines, small little farming village town, and migrated as my first so ground in the United States here in San Francisco. So my peoples consists of many different beings in all track of. The world whom I met, who I’ve loved and fought with, and, relate with and connect with and vision the world with. So that includes my family, both blood and extended, and the people who are here claiming the streets and claiming. Claiming our nation and claiming our world to make sure that we live in the world, that we wanna envision, that we are visioning, that we are creating. I track along indigenous immigrant folks in diaspora. black, indigenous people of color, community, queer folks, and those are folks that resonate in, identify and relate, and live, and pray and play and create art with.
[00:35:11] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. And do you wanna talk, chat a little bit about the legacy that you carry with you?
[00:35:16] Cece Carpio: I carry a legacy of. Lovers and fighters, who are moving and shaking things, who are creating things, who are the healers, the teachers, the artists and it’s a lot of load to carry in some extent, but something I’m very proud of, and those are the folks I’m also rocking with right now. I think we’re still continuing and we’re still making that legacy. And those are the people that are constantly breathing on my neck to make sure that I’m doing and walking the path. And it’s a responsibility I don’t take lightly, but it’s also a responsibility I take proudly.
[00:35:58] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing. We are talking today because you have an exhibit that’s at SOMArts Space, your first solo exhibit, and it’s running all the way through March 29th, and it’s called Tabi Tabi Po: Come Out With the Spirits! You Are Welcome Here First, tell me about the title and what that evokes for you.
[00:36:18] Cece Carpio: Yes, so Tabi Tabi Po is a saying from the Philippines that essentially. Acknowledge, like it’s most often used when you walk in the forest. And I think collectively acknowledge that there are other beings and spirits there beyond ourselves. So it’s asking for permission. It’s almost kind of like, excuse me, we’re walking your territory right now. And, acknowledging that they’re there and acknowledging that we’re here or present and that, we’re about to. Coexist in that space for that moment. So can we please come through? I think this is also not just like my open idea and choosing this title is not that we’re only just coming through, but we’re actually coming out to hang out for a little while and see what’s happening here and kick it. Opening up space and welcoming folks who wants to come out and play with us and who wants to come and share the space.
[00:37:15] Miko Lee: Ooh. I really love that. I feel that when I walk in the forest to this ancestors that are with us. That’s beautiful. This is your first solo exhibit, so I’m wondering what that feels like. You have been a cultural bearer for a really long time, and also an arts administrator. So what does it feel like to have your first solo exhibit and see so much of all of your work all around?
[00:37:36] Cece Carpio: Well, I’m a public artist. Most of the stuff that I’ve been doing the last decade has been out in public, creating murals and installations and activations, in different public spaces, and went somewhere. Specifically Carolina, who is the curator at SOMA have asked me to do this. To be honest, I was a little bit hesitant because I’m like, oh, it’s a big space. I don’t know. ’cause I’ve done group exhibitions in different parts of the years, but most of the stuff I do are affordable housing to like public activations to support the movement. Then I kind of retracted back and it’s like, maybe this is the next step that I wanna explore. And it was a beautiful and amazing decision to work alongside so Mars and Carolina to make this happen ’cause I don’t think it would’ve happened the way we did it in any other space, and it was amazing.
Stressful that moments because I was still doing other projects and as I tried to conceive of a 2000 square footage gallery and so my district in San Francisco. But it was also the perfect opportunity. ’cause my community, my folks are here and. We are saying that it’s a solo exhibition, but it really did take the village to make it all happen, and, which was one of my favorite part because I’ve been tracking this stem for so long and he is like folks on my back and I wanted to tell both my stories and our stories together. It was very opening, very humbling. Very vulnerable and exciting. All at the same time, I was able to talk or explore other mediums within the show. I’ve never really put out my writing out into public and is a big part and component of the exhibition as well as creating installations in the space.
Alongside, what I do, which is painting mostly. But to be honest, the painting part is probably just half of the show. So it was beautiful to play and explore those different parts of me that was also playing with the notion of private and public, like sharing some of my own stories is something as I’m still trying to find ease and comfort in.
Because as a public artist, I’m mostly translating our collective stories out, to be a visual language for folks to see. So this time around I was challenged a little bit to be like, what is it that you wanna share? What is it that you wanna tell? And that part was both scary and exciting. And, and he was, it was wonderful. It was great. I thought he was received well. And also, it was actually very relieving to share parts and pieces of me out with my community who have known for a long time. There were still different parts of that there were just now still learning.
[00:40:39] Miko Lee: What did you discover about yourself as you’re kind of grappling with this public versus private presentation?
[00:40:45] Cece Carpio: What I learned about myself through this process is I can actually pretty shy. I mean, I might be, you know, um, contrary to like popular belief, but it was definitely, I’m like, Ooh, I don’t know. I don’t know. My folks who had been standing close with me, just like, this is dope. And also just in the whole notion that, the more personal it is, the more universal it becomes and learning that, being able to share those part of me in a way of just for the pure sake of sharing, actually allows more people to resonate and relate, and connect, which at this moment in time is I thing very necessary for all of us to know who our peoples are when this tyranny, trying to go and divide us and trying to go and separate us and trying to go and erase us. So I think there’s something really beautiful in being able to find those connections with folks and spaces and places that otherwise wouldn’t have opened up if you weren’t sharing parts and pieces of each other.

[00:42:00] Miko Lee: That’s so interesting. The more personal, kind of vulnerable you make yourself, the more it resonates with folks around the world. I think that’s such a powerful sentiment because the, even just having a gallery, any piece of artwork is like a piece of yourself. So opening up a huge space like Somar, it’s, that’s like, come on in people. Thank you for sharing with us. To your point about the shocking, horrible, challenging, awful times that we live in. As we talk right now, which is Saturday, January 31st, there protests going on all around the country. I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about what it means to be a visual artist, a cultural bearer in a time of fascism and in a time of struggle.
[00:42:43] Cece Carpio: Well, if you go and see the exhibition, that’s actually very much intertwined. My practice has always been intertwined with, creating a vision in solidarity with our communities who are believing and fighting for another world that’s possible. My practice of this work has been embedded and rooted with the movement and with organizations and people who have the same goals and dreams to, bring in presence and existence of just us regular, everyday people who are still fighting to just be here to exist. So just to your question of, but what it means to do this work at this time. I think it is the imagination. It is the creativity that allow us to imagine something different. It is the imagination, it is the dreams that allow us to create that. Other world that we wanna envision when, everything else around us is telling us another way that’s not really the best for ourselves and for our peoples and for the future generations that’s gonna be carrying this load for us.
And with this. In so many ways, a lot of my. my creating process, my making process has always carried that, and even myself, immigrating to this place that was once foreign is figuring out where I can belong. My art practice has not only been a way in which I express myself, but it has been the way in which I navigate the world. That’s how I relate to people. That’s how I am able to be part of different groups and community. And it’s also how I communicate. , And that’s always been, and still is a very big portion of my own practice.

[00:44:37] Miko Lee: Can you share a little bit more about your arts practice, especially when we’re living in times where, people are trying to get a paycheck and then go to the rally, and then maybe phone banking and organizing and there’s so many outside pressures for us to just continue to move on and be in community and be in movement work. I’m wondering how do you do it? Do you carve out times? Is it in your dreams? Where and how do you put yourself in your arts practice.
[00:45:04] Cece Carpio: I don’t think there is a wrong or right way of doing this. I think being an artist, it is not only about being creative on what, a paint on the walls, it is about being creative on how you live your life. I don’t know if there’s a formula and it’s also been something that, to be honest, it’s a real conversation. I mean, most of us artists. We’re asking each other that, you know, like You do it. How do you figure out, like how do you add hours in your day? How do you continue doing what it is that you love and still fall in love with it when we’re under capitalism trying to survive, all these different things. Everyone has a different answer and everyone has different ways of doing it. I’m just kind of figuring it out as I go, you know? I’m an independent artist. It is the center of the work that I do, both as a livelihood and as a creative practice, as a spiritual practice, as a connective practice.
This is what I do. For me it is just like finding my peoples who wants to come and trek along. Finding folks who wants to support and make it happen. Beyond painting on walls, I’m also an educator. I’ve taught and pretty much most of the different levels of, what this nation’s education system is like and still do that in practice, in both workshops, , sometimes classrooms, community group workshops and folks who wants to learn stern, both technical and also like conceptual skills.
I consider myself also a cultural strategist, within a lot of my public activation and how I can support the movement is not just, creating banners or like little cards, but actually how to strategize how we utilize art. To speak of those things unspoken. But to gather folks together in order to create gateways for, other everyday folks who might not be as involved with, doesn’t have time or availability or access to be involved to make our revolution irresistible. Many different cultural strategist comes together and we produce public art activations to make it both irresistible, but also to provide access, to folks who otherwise probably would just walk by and have to go to their everyday grind to just make it on this work.
As long as I see it aligned within kind of divisions that we have together to consistently rise up and get our stories known and become. Both a visual translator but also a visual communicator in spaces and places sometimes, you know, unexpected, like for example, within the protest when protest is over, like what are left behind within those spaces where we can create memories. And not just like a moment in time, but actually how do we mark. The space and places we share and that we learn from and that we do actions with. We can make a mark and let it be seen.

[00:48:05] Miko Lee: Thank you for that. I’m wondering, as you’re talking about your profound work, and how you move through the world, I’m wondering who are some of the artists that inspire you right now?
[00:48:17] Cece Carpio: So many, so many folks. Artists at this moment have been becoming vital because of the intensity of our political climate that’s happening. There’s so many artists right now who are. doing a lot of amazing, amazing things. I definitely always have to give shout out to my mama, Esra, which is one Alicia, who’s just consistently and prolifically still creating things. And she, I’ve been doing and collaborating with her for many, many years. What I think I really love and enjoy is that she’s continuously doing it and like it gives us more hunger to like, all right, we gotta catch up. it’s amazing and
[00:48:58] Miko Lee: beautiful. Amazing work.
[00:49:00] Cece Carpio: Yes, and I’ve been very fortunate and been very lucky to be part of an artist Has been such an inspiration , and a collaborator and in the many process of the different works that we do. So some of the crew members definitely shout out to my brother Miguel to, folks like Frankie and Sean Sacramento. Then we have span over in New York, like we’ve, we’re now spreading like Voltron.
‘ve been very lucky to have some amazing people around me that love doing the same things who are my family. We’re continuing to do that. So many more. It’s really countless. I feel like I definitely have learned my craft and this trait by. Both being out there and making happen and then meeting folks along the way who actually are in the same path. And it’s such a beautiful meeting and connection when that happens. Not only just in path of creating work, but, and path of we down to do something together. There’s so many, there’s so many. It’s so nameless.
[00:50:05] Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing some of them, some of the artists that helped to feed you, and I’m sure you feed them. You just have finished up an artist in residence with the Ohlone people. I’m wondering if you could talk a little bit about what that experience was like being an artist in residence there.
[00:50:21] Cece Carpio: It has been an amazing, and the relationship continues. Karina actually gave the spirit plate on the opening, which is such a big honor because I consider her, both a mentor and a comrade and, and
[00:50:34] Miko Lee: Karina Gold, the Chair of the Ohlone tribe.
[00:50:38] Cece Carpio: Yes. And who I have such admiration for, because if. Both integrity and also the knowledge that she carries and the work that she’s doing and how she opens it up for different folks. How she walks is such a big part of how that collaboration started in the first place. As an indigenous immigrant that’s been consistent. Like what does even mean to be indigenous in the land that’s not yours, you know?
Just the notion of what is our responsibility as stewards of this land to live on stolen land? I had this specific skill that I wanted to share, and they were more than willing, and open to dream together of what that could look like and was able to do. Many different projects and different sites , of land that’s been returned to indigenous hands. It was such an honor to be part of that. Creating visual markers and visual acknowledgement in spaces that, you know, kind of telling the autobiographical stories of those spaces and how it was returned, what our divisions, and to work alongside the young people, the various different communities she believes and wanted to take part of the movement.
I learned as much or if not more. I share my knowledge of like how to paint a mural or all the different skills. So it was very much a reciprocal relationship and it’s still a continuous relationship that we’re building. It’s gonna be an ongoing fight, an ongoing resistance, but an ongoing victory. They’ve already have shared and won and have shown and shared with us the experiences of that. It’s been very rejuvenating, regenerating, revitalizing, and in all those different ways, being able to bear witness to that, but taking small part in pieces, and certain projects to uplift and support that and also just to learn from the many different folks, and people from both Sego and the communities that they’ve able to like. Create and build through the time, I mean through the young time actually that they’ve been here, but definitely still growing.
[00:52:46] Miko Lee: Thank you. Your show is up until the end of March. What do you want folks to feel after they go see Tabi Tabi Po
[00:52:55] Cece Carpio: Mostly are gonna feel whatever they wanna feel. I’m kind of curious to know actually, what is it that people are feeling and thinking, but I think Enchantment, I wanna recapture that feeling of Enchantment in a time and moment where. It can be very frustrating. It can be very, depressing. Seeing the series of event in this nation and just uncaring, and like the pickable violence that’s imposed to our peoples. I wanna be able to give folks a little bit of glimpse of like, why we are fighting and why we were doing this for and even see the magic in the fight.
I think that’s a big part of the story that’s being told and that the, knowing that we’re still writing a story as we go. Within this exhibition, there’s a lot of spaces of me sharing parts of my story, but a big part of that is also spaces for folks to share theirs. That exchange of magic is something that we can use as ammunitions, we can use as tools to keep us going in times that is very, very trying.
[00:53:59] Miko Lee: The magical exchange to make the revolution irresistible.
[00:54:03] Cece Carpio: Let’s do it. Let’s go.
[00:54:05] Miko Lee: Sounds great. We’re gonna put links to the show at SoMarts we’ll put them on our Apex Express, um, page, and I’m wondering what’s next for you?
[00:54:14] Cece Carpio: We will also have programs that coincides alongside the various stories that we’re telling with this exhibition to welcome for other community members, other artists, other cultural bearers, other fighters to come and join us, and be part of it and tell stories, heal time. Imagine a magical future to celebrate the victories and wins as big and small as they come. So that is gonna be happening. What’s nice for me is, actually it’s going simultaneously is I’m still painting. I’m going to be in support of painting a new space opening for a Palestinian owned bakery. They’re opening up a new space back in their hometown right here in Oakland. And Reem is a close friend, but also a very frontline fighter. ’cause you know, genocide is still happening right now. I wanna be able to support that and also support her.
Another public art installation is actually gonna be unveiling within next month over at soma. In the district of Soma Filipino with the Jean Friend Recreation Center. I’m actually trying to carve out more time to write. I’m still exploring, definitely like in the infants stages of exploring it, but falling in love with it. At some point in time within this show, . Wanna be able to actually get it published, in a written form where both the images can accompany some of the written work , and wanna see like its duration last beyond the exhibition show. There’s always the streets to come and protest to happen and contributing to that work that we do to reclaim what is ours, the world that is ours.
[00:55:53] Miko Lee: Thank you so much. You’re doing so many things so powerfully, so beautifully, so articulately and I guess the best way for folks to follow up is on your Instagram.
[00:56:04] Cece Carpio: Yeah, I’m still actually operating in myself.
[00:56:06] Miko Lee: Okay. Okay. Well thank you so much for your work, everything that you do in the community, so powerful, and thanks so much for speaking with us today. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to our show tonight. Please go check out Cece’s exhibition Tabi Tabi Po at SoMarts and go to a local bookstore to get the paperback version of Tara’s Call Her Freedom. Support artists who are paving the way towards a vision for a new future. They are working to make the revolution irresistible. Join us.
[00:56:41] Closing Music: Please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/apex Express to find out more about our show and our guests tonight. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating, and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me Miko Lee, and edited by Ayame Keane- Lee. Have a great night.

The post APEX Express – 2.5.26-Envisioning Hopeful Futures appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 1.29.26 – White Switch
29 tammi· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Guest host Jovelyn Richards presents White Switch

WHITE SWITCH Show Transcript
Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:01:07] Hi, this is Jovelyn Richards and I’m happy to be here on Apex. Some of you may know me from Cover to Cover, which is every Tuesday at two o’clock, which I, um, spend time with artists, filmmakers, uh, writers, play writers, poets, to bring that to my audience. And on every third Monday you would hear me on Women’s Magazine and my colleagues. We all take one Monday and Tuesday on different topics from a feminist perspective, from a global perspective. And my specific way of approaching that is to look at writings and, um, that’s either from fiction or either it is nonfiction, but at the core of it, because my interest really is getting to the story of what it’s like to be human.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:02:05] Those reflect characters topics that really dig inside of that written by women who was in search of, in their research, their lives of highlighting either known people or ordinary people who are. Living in ways in which moves humanity forward. So that’s where you’ll find me. And so why am I here? I’m here because I did a project, uh, over a year ago, and this, this, uh, tape is, uh, this program is a long time coming. I partnered with this particular project with, so when you would be familiar with, and that’s Preeti Shekar last name is spelled S-H-E-K-A-R. And we began this story, uh, of looking at anti-blackness in the South Asian community together. So what I’m going to do is let you listen to a clip, not from Preeti or myself. But from someone else’s doing this anti-blackness work in South Asian communities with Ritu Bhasin, and the last spelling of her name is B-H-A-S-I-N. So we’ll take a listen to that and then I will be right back and have that discussion.

CLIP PLAYS

Jovelyn Richards: [00:04:46] All right, so here we go. And so one of the things I appreciated seeing and listening to her video when I first was introduced to her, that aligned with the work that myself and Preeti was doing in our project curriculum called The White Switch, and we’ll dig into that. What is the White Switch? What is the curriculum of the White Switch and how it came about? And so what I appreciate, the continuous work, you may wanna Google, if you don’t already know, you probably do with Ritu Bhasin, uh, because she speaks directly about anti-black, uh, racism within South Asian communities, especially among professionals and leaders. And as you’ve heard in the video, she shares what that experience has been. And I was so happy to be able to offer that in the beginning of this. Uh, broadcast so that it, uh, to break the sense of isolation just in myself. Speaking of it as a black woman, I was hoping that Preeti would be here, but she’s, um, back in India and I’ll talk a little bit about what that’s like for me, uh, that my co-create, um, my partner on this here.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:05:59] So the white switch and the history of it for years. Uh. Probably like close to 15 years now. We were part of the beginning of white, uh, women’s magazine and we had wanted to do something together. We knew that we wanted to work together without knowing the why, but every time we were in conversation in the building, uh, women’s magazine and the way I approach the topics, uh, as a collective. And where the resistance was, where the fun of it was at. Uh, and then her way she approached it, there was place the, the connected dots. So example would be for any of our lives, when you’re in very difficult conversations, you pay attention to the other, uh, uh, collaborators or whatever the, what the team is made of. And even if it’s to people and you see whether or not they’re coming from a place of inclusiveness, you’re seeing how, how hard they are holding on to their opinion, whether it’s negotiable, whether they’re really deeply listening. And what was really interesting to where we connect the is that we found that both of us and we were relatively new to each other.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:07:20] What we both found is that the humor. That in the heat of it all, or the conflict of it all, there was, we relied on this part of humor to not, to deflate and deflect from the situation, not to deflate it, like take off the, the, the fullness of the topic, but to give us all a moment to breathe in humor. Right? And, and that’s, that is part of my go-to as a standup comedian. So that’s real for me. So. Let’s talk about the white switch. So the, oh, so the, how it began, how we came up with that since we wanted to do a project together, how did we come up with the white switch anti-blackness in South Asian community Preeti, uh, was in New York over a year ago, and she was taking a Lyft in Harlem to wherever else she was going, or she was going to Harlem and the Lyft driver. South Asian, uh, driver asked her why was she going there or coming from there. Then she said, what do you mean? And he began to have a conversation around the dangers of that even. He didn’t always like to pick up folks there and he was referring to black folks. And so pretty him not knowing that she’s an independent journalist, she’s also an activist.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:08:48] Begin to ask important questions and starting with what has been your experience, your personal experience, and then your experience with others close to you that might have shared that is informing these thoughts. You have these feelings, you have these decisions you’re making, these things you’re telling me not to do, and he had nothing, none to offer. So the next question would be, so then, then. Why, and then from, if I got the story right, there was a, um, uh, moments of silence and so I think he was sort of processing, processing in his own mind. Why am I telling, why am I feeling this way? Why am I hesitant to go to areas where I know there’ll be black folks? Why am I telling a woman who is South Asian, particularly identifying with his own, uh, identity, wanting her not to go? And in that emptiness, one would hope that. Once he did self-reflection, uh, with that question that he was discovering, like he really didn’t have anything substantial to go by. And so when she got back from her trip, we were talking and she said this was very important to her, to talk about that.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:10:15] And uh, and I told her at the time, surprisingly enough that I was. Actually had been working on a project in my isolation, uh, called the White Switch, and that this coincidence, we wanted to take advantage of both of our energy of importance towards the matter. So the thesis statement within it is that the whites, which is a healing curriculum. This innovative program designed for activists very specifically anyone can, can be involved in the curriculum of, of essentially looking at the anti-blackness in any community outside of the black community. Specifically for activists and then, but anyone can do that if you, if they’re, you don’t have to be actively considering yourself an activist just by wanting to, to think about and look at the curriculum on some level. Something is activating inside and looking at that, and then to, in the curriculum to recognize as this, this Lyft driver did that there was no logical reason for him. To not only have that stance, but to offer it to strangers, then spreading that untruth or have no validity to it, right? And so the curriculum addresses that and to begin as, as to, to eradicate the deeper feelings despite being activists, despite education around anti-blackness.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:12:12] That even among the most astute South Asians, there are the deeper roots, the deeper roots of anti-blackness. And that is the white switch. The white switch. And so the, the pattern. The reoccurring pattern that one has seen politically in black communities. As we also heard in the, um, video, which were two of us seen, uh, has been, that is, is even after years of political education, community organizing, or DEI, where there’s a sudden internal shift that occurs. This shift is not intellectual, it is somatic. Emotional and rooted in the proximity to whiteness. And that switch, the white switch goes on immediately for survival purpose. So when confronted. By anti-blackness in conversation and actions, there’s a switch that goes off. Fight or flight, fight or flight. And when that happens, there are things that happen again in the activist. In, in communities that have, uh, fought for years for political education through community organizing. But the, the, the roots of the proximity to whiteness globally is no joke because literally it is saying, this is for your survival.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:14:18] You are invested here in this proximity to whiteness. For your survival, economically, social placement, accessibility, back to safety for all of the above, and this buried there even while you’re doing the, the, the radical work, however you show up, is sitting there with those deep roots, right? And so the workshop curriculum was created. I had started it before Preeti and I began doing it, um, writing about it. And I’ll give you that history. This is a good place to do the history of that. I had been doing political education around anti-blackness and around many issues, but what, this is what we’re speaking about, right? And educating around domestic. Other things were like hunger, domestic violence, um, community organizing, and specifically that, that came out of anti-blackness, holding workshops, creating workshops. And what I discovered is, um. Most of the people, the audience that was there, I’m thinking example of the Stockton Unified School districts district where myself and peer advocates went in, uh, to do the work of anti-blackness over some incidences that had happened in in Stockton in the public school system that was quite serious and quite painful for the black students and black community.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:16:07] And when I was there doing a workshop, and this was in my particular, um, um, curriculum that we was, we was doing, uh, but I was implementing it and what I noticed was more pronounced, I had noticed it before. And had even talked about it, had, um, had dialogues about it, uh, with others. What I noticed in those, the, those times that there’s a point. Where in the, that particular workshop, I could see where there was staff that was really wanting to get to the bottom of their own anti-blackness for their students. So the teacher part of them and the diversity of the students. And there was activated and then there was those, uh, that were not engaged with the caring of, they were there to teach and they brought, they. Didn’t have an issue with their behavior that spoke to anti-blackness. Example would be two students are talking and one non-black. Black. And these are just random examples. Very, they’re not mild, but compared to what had happened, what brought us there that was so extreme, it involved death. Um, uh. I shouldn’t just say it like that without giving more backdrop to it, but, and maybe I will.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:17:43] But here’s in the daily classroom that then this black student would be called out and removed more times than not from a classroom. And so by the teachers that did not take up responsibility, that in their teaching they had a responsibility to be teaching themselves. By listening to the students that would call, would call them out and, and stay forth and say, why, why? This person started talking to me? Why are you only pointing out at me? So this, this is not new. I’m sure this happened throughout the teaching person teaching career. Why am I have to go to office? And so now we can see what happens when students are constantly in the office, how that impacts them. So. That is part of when I started making more notes on this here. And then I, uh, worked with, and probably you’re very familiar with this organization in the Bay Area, surge showing up for racial justice. And they were, uh, we worked together on a project. That I was doing as a writer. I was writing the Play 911: What’s your emergency? And it was in response to white communities, particularly women calling the police on Brown and black people. And most notable in the Bay Area was barbecue, Becky and Permit Patty. So I met La Peña. I was a resident artist at La Peña Cultural Center. Hopefully you’re all aware of that. Uh, of the center and its beauty that it, uh, and work is done over the decades. And I, so in writing the play and working with community folks, uh, actors, performers, and interested and impacted by these phone calls, and we worked in Workshop to create together, I did. I wanted to. Dig more into the psychology now of the barbecue Becky and permit Patty.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:20:10] That means I wanted to look at the racism within white women. And again, I wanted to look at that from, of. White women who have done work and fight for anti-blackness and other, uh, social ills. And so I went to search and, uh, they agreed immediately, which is kudos and kudos, uh, that, uh, they were willing to even think to themselves, yes, I can look, I can get, I, there’s, there’s roots in here. There’s something in here. And so we, um. Created, I created the curriculum for the workshop that lasted over the weekend, and I found out some very interesting things and they found out more importantly, some very interesting things being activists themselves. And as we dug deeper using healing curriculum, for example, uh, there’s, uh, healing, uh, um. Theater is based in theater, similar to, um, not similar to, but another theater thing you could think of that deals, which social ills would be theater of the press, uh, playback theater. And I also use that in some of the work I do. That’s part of the White Switch. But I had created a thing called two Tiers Telling.
Jovelyn Richards: [00:21:38] And in the chairs, two chairs telling the facilitator being me and the, the person who is working on, and this, in this case, women from s would sit in the chair and the others are the witness. They hold the space. Right. And again, this is a healing, uh, process. And then we go into some reflection questions, right. The same way. Preeti did with the Lyft Driver. But these particular questions, because I’m working with activists who are very savvy in the work they do, and very knowledgeable and, uh, the political, uh, things that are happening are happening in the world, then I created those questions to dig past the intellect. Pass the work into the personal, right? So we go into to memory, we go into early memory, and that became really a wonderful experience, as I said, for everybody, right? And I took those notes again, collecting that. And over the years, other workshops I’ve done. And so again, by the time it circled to pretty us looking forward. Uh, work to do together. It came up. Now I even in this rec, this, um, programming, it was odd when I ’cause this, this recording, this program was due like almost a year ago. We started this program in this 20, 20, 26. Now we started together in late 2024. We presented this at the DESI Conference in 2024, south Asian uh, DESI Conference.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:23:41] We presented at that conference, right? And we were building the curriculum looking for, um, support for it, and Kamala Harris spoke at that conference. There was some political uproar from some of the folks there. They had their own feelings about her and the, the, the, what was, what was happening, what was not happening in the, uh, Biden and her administration with Biden. And there happened to be a moment when I got into, uh, an argument with one of the people who wanted to disrupt the moment she was speaking. I had an issue with that and wanted to, um, ask more questions and in the questioning the person was, was crying and so upset, and then I asked them what work they had been doing in their, in anti-blackness, and their response to me was, I don’t have time for that right now. That was very concerning. Very concerning. And so when I talk about this now, I’m recording this. It’s actually Martin Luther King’s Day where I’m recording it at air, uh, later and, and I’m sitting here reflecting on where we’re at as a whole.
Jovelyn Richards: [00:25:14] And I know that a lot of that was, we’re here now, whatever, wherever you’re thinking about where we’re at, because of anti-blackness, because of anti-blackness. So, so much feels kind of odd to be talking about the work we were doing and wanting to do, and then more fiercely leading up to the election. Right? So again, this was, uh, 24. 2024 when we started the story in the, the spring of, and it just turned 2024. The conference was in the spring, I think it was May, late spring, and we came back wanting to do workshops and I left the conference. It was a wonderful. And I love the diversity of the conference in terms of the way diversity and how they was approaching it. Different topics, whatever the topics they were using. It was a different, it was different than most conference where the talking hads and, and then you go to break room, then you come back to another workshop on the program and then you go on the talking hat. You take notes or. And then you come out and then there’s a, another break or lunchtime, you go back in and you meet people. There were hundreds of people and there were, there were people approaching difficult subject matters with comedy. And I’m a comedian, so I know that, and we all know on some level the comedians can tell you the best of the best stuff in terms of, um, political social ills, and they get you with that punch.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:26:50] That’s another way to get people to sort of pay attention to where they’re at in the world, where they’re at within the subject matter and what or what not they want to do. Richard Pryor would be a good one, uh, most notable. Uh, and Eddie Murphy to some degree. Yeah, to some degree, but definitely Richard Pryor. Um. And so, and then they also had the dance. They have so much, they had so much of, they brought themselves their culture to the conference and it was one, it was the best conference I had been to. Uh, in a long time. ’cause it brought the, the, the one beautiful thing about many communities is that if, if the conference is put on by them, uh, and for whatever the topics, some, a lot of communities bring their culture into it, right? It’s not a template of traditional conference, which very cut, very linear, et cetera. And that was absolutely fantastic. And I enjoyed it deeply and that was my takeaway from it. My takeaway from what we presented, very active listeners, very painful. As I was listening to some of the panelists, I was on the panel, discussed the work they do and gave, uh. Examples, like, uh, one woman was an his attorney and deals with, uh, prison reform and she was giving case cases that she had shared and the disparity of an justice system and the pain of, and then it was, it was, um, very, uh, emotional for me because I know these things occur, but when you hear, hear them in a case study and the results of them.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:28:47] So I was. How very, I was feeling that very deeply. And when it was my, someone asked a question, it was my, and I was speaking again. I’m feeling a certain kind of way. And I’m much, much, uh, I mean at this point my, you can hear and feel my passion when I was answering the question and the frustration that the story of the prison system. Uh, the, the racial, uh, inequality, the punitive measures, and I, and frustrated because this is not new. We know that in the different presidential folks, uh, say the Reagan administration, the Clinton three strikes, we know that’s been going on and on, and yet the same stories being told over and over again. Uh, the sameness is like the, the, that different, different, different zip codes, different people, et cetera. But the same story of the injustice. The injustice, right? Going all the way back for some of you that are familiar with history. Going back to, uh, emancipation when the, um, black folks were, the, this sort of system we’re working on now was created from that, that system doing emancipation with black folks, had nowhere to go with no resource, no money, and that no land.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:30:19] And that wandering the roads of trying to, to make up a life. And they created a system, a law that if you were the, what is the fragrant of fragrant frequency law, lot loitering, L-O-I-T-E-R-I, in order to re imprison them. So they had choices either go to prison or go work on Mr. X Farm of Land. And so it’s been a continuation of, of creating systems, of imprisonment, of enslavement, of brown and black folks. And then so that came out and one of the people facilitating the conference when I, I just, my impatience of keep dis of discussion, my impatience of intellectual approach, my impatience and my bottom line question is, is what is taking this so long? If everybody, if we have attorneys and politicians and all these folks working on the same thing, why are we still here? What is that? And the persons, and so whatever I said after that was really about being more radical, more clear, more intolerant of it. And the person said, we are not ready yet. Meaning we are not we, we are not ready. We don’t have all those pieces in place. And then I said, we are. And why? And why are we on the timeframe of others?

Jovelyn Richards: [00:31:50] Right. Why is it we’re looking at the clock of others? What is that about other than anti-blackness? The deeper woods where the white switch clicked on? Why are you, why would anyone or any bodies of people talk about the atrocities of the prison system? The injustice? Talk about it, the atrocities. Then when approached to say, meet it, meet it where it’s at, it turns the intensity to say, we are not ready yet. What does that, what did that mean? Jovelyn Richards: And what I learned even in that statement that at the conference, and as men pretty came back and talked about and realized that even after years of political education, the community organizing or DEI, a sudden internal shift occurs. The shift is not intellectual, it’s somatic. Emotional and again rooted in proximity to whiteness and despite activists stated commitments to racial justice, many South Asians activists experience a movement with their nervous system over rise their politics. Fight or flight response activation. Instead of leaning into accountability, they retreat.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:33:23] Retreat into defensiveness, fragility or self-protection. And when I say those words, we see that more. We think about in the, what is the book? White fragility. So it’s the same thing, right? The same characteristic. ’cause again. It’s that close proximity to whiteness. So of course you’re taking the, the, the, when you, and this, I think it’s across the board when anyone is confronted on anything and don’t take the word confronted, um, and begin to think of it just as confront, like it seems like a hard word, word and English language doesn’t always offer enough words to express. One thing without making it as heavy, because confront, confront could be simply in a conversation and someone says, do you know what you just said is very offensive to me? And, and say, why? And then suddenly the possibility of the white switch, this reflective, turned toward whiteness. Toward innocence.
Jovelyn Richards: [00:34:29] Rural more purity and distance from blackness is the white switch. And so when in my experience, uh, south Asian activist is confronted with their own anti-blackness, does the switch may show up as defensiveness. Words like, I’ve done so much work on this. I, you know, I do the work. It’s like proving, here’s my resume, here’s my, this, I’ve done the work and, and, and that’s not me. I’ve taken anti-racism training. I work every day my and, and bring credentials into it. I teach workshops. I’m dismantling racism, volunteer in prison reform. I’ve marched, donated, organized, centering my, uh, centering, centering. And that I wanna say is what people do in any situations, not just a topic like anti-blackness. It’s in a relationships you can, and we call, what do people call it now? Uh, you’re deflecting, you’re being a narcissist. It’s all these other things that cover it up. So it’s a, it is, it appears to be something that human beings do in constant protection. So I wanna make that clear, but now we’re talking about.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:35:50] In a way of the social pains of this world that we are trying as activists, uh, as people trying to get, not just get a handle on, but to eradicate it. Like right where, just take a moment. Where are we at right now? Where are we at in Minnesota? Where are we at in any state? DC Chicago? Where are we at? This is the thing that we’re dealing with. And so it, if the answer is to look at the things that, the look at, the things that the government is saying, it is saying, we clearly, we are racist, and everything we about to do was about to be about that. I’m so happy. Again, you’re going to hear this after, uh, today, which is Martin Luther King’s Day. I’m so happy on social media where everyone is celebrating. Not everyone, but those that I see are, are celebrating and they’re honoring. And they’re ignoring any, any kind of dismissal. Erasure, ain’t nobody. Yeah. You can forget what you wanna forget. You can have what you want to hide, but, but everybody out here knows the truth.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:37:18] We just gotta get to their truth of humanity. Other ways of dis defensiveness is the feeling in a sense of, of almost like being dismissed as all that they’ve done. Like, I’ve done all this, I do all this. And then to hear that and in, in, in that moment, I have, uh, witnessed we’re almost as if in the mind, you know, if they say we are not mind Raiders, but if you. You don’t have your mind reader to pay attention to the, the flesh of a person, the eyes of a person to be able to get cold. Where they’re running, where they’re hiding, which, where what, what, what are they doing to survive the moment? Right. To be seen and not seen. Right. And it’s not intentional. It’s not malicious. It again, it is a, it is the umbrella psychology that we exist under and. When a person works so hard to, to show up their best self as an activist in anti-blackness, and then someone, and particularly a black person, joins in their huge effort to say, Hey, this, this ain’t this. This is not working here. Let’s work with this here. It’s almost like they just threw out their. Whole journey of sense of, of what they’re proud of, what they’re, what makes them feel good about themselves inside this human life. And it should, oh, and they should absolutely adore, feel good because we’re out here doing the work.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:39:09] And so these are the things that is important for us to know. And we’re going to listen to another, um, video, and you are going to hear, I, I appreciated this video because it asked a question, what would I have been if I had not been doing this? So take a listen and then I will be right back.

CLIP PLAYS

Jovelyn Richards: [00:41:55] So what would. Right. What would we be doing? I ask myself as a black woman, if a lot of what I do as a writer, as a performance artist, as a community, um, activist, whatever the title is, how much energy it takes, and right now. The energy is taken again in a very different faith. This hurts, this hurts, this really hurts. Right? In a way that almost the thinking about again, the timeframe of when we were doing the work and then where we at now. Being in the conference where we at now, how many people voted against Kamala, where we are now after the conference, um, I got a text message and this was when they were, uh, folks was holding, uh, zoom.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:43:20] And it was really exciting. So many people from so many different communities was doing Zoom calls to talk about the, the elections that were coming up. And when she became the primary chosen person to run as a democratic party and people were talking, people raising money. Oh, did you see the excitement, the energy. I got a text message from one of the people from the DESI conference and, and was very, they were in pain. He said, I feel so hurt right now because on the zoom that she was uh, on, there were many people saying that they weren’t gonna vote for her, or no, this is South Asian Zoom. They weren’t going to vote for her. Or they weren’t gonna vote at all. My re I was so my livid, which is really not as important as the liveness of now. But I was just surprised given what everybody understood and knew about her opponent. And so I said to the person in text. I said, go back to the Zoom, and I said this, everyone, there’s a slogan that people are saying as if it’s, uh, the, the, you know, there’s always this new thing to say.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:44:58] And the slogan was, listen to black women. Listen to black. So I said to her, which, which I, I think people really don’t get it, don’t understand the history of what that means. They don’t understand history with that. They don’t care. And, and I’m saying, I shouldn’t just say I, it’s not that they don’t care. I don’t think they, they, they take, they don’t look at what that meaning. That means listen to black women means the story of black women in this country, how the, how our arrival, and then the story after that. They’re not gonna even get into you. You know that if you know anything, if you listen to KPFA, you know, and the MA mechanisms of how that happens, the template of how that works is the, the ask black women, the template, right? We, we know that the, the intimate details of how that works, right? And so the thought that people were literally not wanting to. I not wanting to, and that was disturbing.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:46:19] And so that happened. And then we did, oh, then I was, um, watching a couple ones that were white women were getting together. On these zooms, and they were so excited, so excited. And in their excitement, they were talking about, they were connecting. They, they were having so much fun talking about this, this, the leading up to the election, the support, the, the, and they felt some sisterhood. They felt energized. They felt all of this stuff and the energy I got from that. The energy I got from that is this is about y’all having fun, connecting, laughing, having a project. This is a project, and I asked, what I didn’t hear them say is how much they had raised. They weren’t talking about any of the practicalities of the next step.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:47:28] It was just about. It was a, and I put it in the way I took it. Good, bad or different. You can agree or not agree, but I’m telling you what I experienced. It felt like it was a big party, a really big fun party that they had experienced and being able to see people, they and strangers, and laugh and talk and, and go on and on and on, that it was a party, right? But it really wasn’t about the truth. It had something to do. And then, and I said, and I left that, that when I saw that, I wasn’t in the Zoom, but this was people talking afterwards, like on social media, about how excited they were. And I had asked, what did you raise? What are your next steps? They had nothing.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:48:14] Well, we are gonna have another one in a couple weeks. We can figure that out. Really interesting. You got two weeks to figure it out. You got, oh, you got that kind of time. Interesting. Right. And then, uh, we saw how that happened and I see that they’re working right outside my window. So let me just day. I apologize for those. Got a little bit of that noise out, said that, oh, I think that happened a little bit. And so that’s how that went. And now we are here. So again and again, we, I think to find a way, even though there’s a sense of probably hopelessness that some of us are feeling and we are not gonna go into, um, the hopelessness of it all. We are gonna go into, uh, not in this here, um, thing, but I think all of us needs to go into, uh, the, not even about the hope, but the necessity. Hope is wonderful. Necessity. They’re going to the necessity, right? They go into that place like, and find where do you live, where it’s like this is the urgency, the necessity to it.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:49:42] Uh, other quotes that I’m gonna give you a few of them. A few quote, anti-blackness is foundational, not peripheral. And that’s Frank B Wilderson. The third on the limits of allyship. So as we go into this, uh, we’re in this thing right now. I think it’s important for, uh, connectiveness, interconnectiveness in groups, intubated, dig. Inside, um, those roots to be the most effective on the nervous system and racial conditioning, the body keeps the score. I think that’s, um, something that’s important. And then when the, when I bring that up, the body keeps the score because what does proximity to whiteness doom where it literally dismantles parts of you no matter how deep you’ve been educated.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:50:43] That it can dismantle you. Um, and where does that go? Example, the nervous system and racial conditioning I speak about That is the, you lose the ability to see, hear, and speak that racial conditioning, proximity to whiteness. You give up the ability to hear. To see and to speak. You are muted and your critical thinking skills is dismantled in areas of, of, uh, anym. So I’m gonna broaden it anym, and it dismantles those parts of you energetically. Like here we are on this human experience. And, and all the, the human properties that belong to us. All the gifts of being human and to come into a circumstance, uh, where you are immediately given isms and in this story, anti-blackness. And I think some of you have, you, you may have heard of the book cast and we know it South. Asian communities coming from a caste system and then coming to America. If you came here to America with, or a history of, however, the story is that you, it’s, you have a built in template for anti-blackness. I mean, it’s already set thousands of years of being set.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:52:27] And so coming here, it’s not so hard, uh, to even, no matter how hard when you work to be educated. And to work in systems, uh, it gives you, working in systems and anti-blackness gives you sort of the oodles and feel a sense of pride when you sit down at the table. Right. But that white switch is there that you, the, the hearing, the saying, and the knowing is gone speaking, and so it’s at what percent. What percent are you really doing the work if you are embedded with anti-blackness? You, so, like I said, the co. The co, the conference, I asked that questions. I asked a question like, why is it taking so long? Because people operating, operating at 40%. It’s like being in a burning building and people in the burning building, you say, okay, I’m gonna go get, um, uh, enough water for half the building to be, um, uh, fire to be put out.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:53:45] So stand on that part of the building. The building’s still on fire. So you’re gonna put that out. So you’re kind of running around in a burn, a, a burning building, and that’s not okay. And so in creating the curriculum to do work, I think is really relevant. Now, I would fe I think February, um, 20, uh. 20 something, there’s gonna pop the white switch, uh, ebook is coming out and it’ll be on Amazon. I know. Um, and that’s not the best thing. Um, it’ll be on, but it’ll be out there and it will be the curriculum, it’ll be the self-reflection, it’ll be stories. And I, one of the things that I’m wanting of folks is to start partnering with. Like, if you’re listening to this as a South Asian activist, what would it be like to get to, to hook up, which probably folks in your circle, um, black activists and there, and, and you may say what you, you may, I’m pretty sure you, you connected, but some folks have said, well, what if they’re, they’re not an activist.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:55:15] Um, very difficult to be breathing in black and not be an activist, if that’s even before this time being aware of your activism. ’cause if you gotta move through space every day, you’re fighting for yourself. You endure, uh, worlds. You are code switching, you are being aware of and mindful of and of your activities. You are an activist and always saving yourself. Saving yourself, saving your family, aware of signs of, uh, like, uh, signs that are out movies, you’re always looking after anti-blackness that exists, even if it’s not conscious on that level. Right. And so as I come to an end, I must say that, uh, it would’ve been nice to have done this with pretty, uh, one of the things that I think we both was learning an I that was.

Jovelyn Richards: [00:56:11] We were working on the anti-blackness and our work together that was, that couldn’t be helped, uh, in working together. And as she shared with me one time, and she does a lot of fantastic work on herself, she said, you know, I am, I am the white woman in India. And I appreciated that knowledge and how that might work out with us. I work and it did show up and we were able to discuss some things, some things I, my own stuff kept silent. Right. And that’s something I gotta work on. And I’ll leave you with that. It’s been traveling. Again, the ebook called We Switch by Joplin, uh, late February. Uh, curriculum exercises, thoughts, reflections, Self-Reflection, uh, and I’ll see you on Cover, the cover of Women’s Magazine. Until then, be mindful. Be conscious. Goodbye.

Miko Lee: [00:57:18] Please check out our website, kpfa.org to find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important.

Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much for joining us.

The post APEX Express – 1.29.26 – White Switch appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 1.22.26 – What Is Community Safety?
22 tammi· KPFA - APEX Express
APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
On this episode, host Miata Tan speaks with three guests from the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice (CCSJ), a leading community-based resource providing direct victim services for Asian Americans in San Francisco.
They unpack CCSJ’s approach to policy change, community advocacy, and public education, and reveal how their Collective Knowledge Base Catalog captures lessons from their work.

Important Links:

Community Safety and Justice (CCSJ)
CCSJ Collective Knowledge Base Catalog

CCSJ‘s four founding partners are the Chinatown Community Development Center, Chinese for Affirmative Action, Chinese Progressive Association, and Community Youth Center.

Transcript:
[00:00:00]
Miata Tan: Hello and welcome. You are tuning into APEX Express, a weekly radio show, uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans.
I am your host, Miata Tan, and today we are focusing on community safety. The Coalition for Community Safety and Justice, also known as CCSJ, is the leading community-based resource in providing direct victim [00:01:00] services for Asian Americans in San Francisco.
The four founding partners of the Coalition are Chinatown Community Development Center, Chinese for Affirmative Action, Chinese Progressive Association, and the Community Youth Center. You might have heard of some of these orgs.
Today we are joined by three incredibly hardworking individuals who are shaping this work. First up is Janice Li, the Coalition Director. Here she is unpacking the history of the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice, and the social moment in which it was formed in response to.
Janice Li: Yeah, so we formed in 2019 and it was at a time where we were seeing a lot of high profile incidents impacting and harming our Asian American communities, particularly Chinese seniors.
We were seeing it across the country due to rhetoric of the Trump administration at that time that was just throwing, oil onto fire and fanning the flames. [00:02:00] And we were seeing those high profile incidents right here in San Francisco. And the story I’ve been told, because I, I joined CCSJ as its Coalition Director in 2022, so it says a few years before I joined.
But the story I’ve been told is that the Executive Directors, the staff at each of these four organizations, they kept seeing each other. At vigils and protests and rallies, and it was a lot of outpouring of community emotions and feelings after these high profile incidents. And the eds were like. It’s good that we’re seeing each other and coming together at these things, but like, what are we doing?
How are we changing the material conditions of our communities? How are we using our history and our experience and the communities that we’ve been a part of for literally decades and making our communities safe and doing something that is more resilient than just. The immediate reactive responses that we often know happen [00:03:00] when there are incidents like this.
Miata Tan: And when you say incidents could you speak to that a little bit more?
Janice Li: Yeah. So there were, uh, some of the high profile incidents included a Chinese senior woman who was waiting for a bus at a MUNI stop who was just randomly attacked. And, there were scenes of her. Fighting back.
And then I think that had become a real symbol of Asians rejecting that hate. And the violence that they were seeing. You know, at the same time we were seeing the spa shootings in Atlanta where there were, a number of Southeast Asian women. Killed in just completely senseless, uh, violence.
And then, uh, we are seeing other, similar sort of high profile random incidents where Chinese seniors often where the victims whether harmed, or even killed in those incident. And we are all just trying to make sense of. What is happening? [00:04:00] And how do we help our communities heal first and foremost?
It is hard to make sense of violence and also figure out how we stop it from happening, but how we do it in a way that is expansive and focused on making all of our communities better.
Because the ways that we stop harm cannot be punitive for other individuals or other communities. And so I think that’s always been what’s really important for CCSJ is to have what we call a holistic view of community safety.
Miata Tan: Now you might be wondering, what does a holistic view and approach to community safety look like in practice?
From active policy campaigns to direct victim service support, the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice offers a range of different programs.
Janice Li, the Coalition Director, categorizes this work into three different [00:05:00] buckets.
Janice Li: It is responding to harm when it occurs, and that’s, you know, really centering victims and survivors and the harm that they faced and the healing that it takes to help those, folks.
The second piece is really figuring out how do we change our systems so that they’re responsive to the needs of our communities. And what that looks like is a lot of policy change and a lot of policy implementation. It’s a lot of holding government accountable to what they should be doing.
And the third piece is recognizing that our communities don’t exist in vacuums and all of our work needs to be underpinned by cross-racial healing and solidarity. To acknowledge that there are historic tensions and cultural tensions between different communities of color in particular, and to name it, we know that there are historic tensions here in San Francisco between the Black and Chinese communities.
We have to name it. We have to see it, and we have to bring community [00:06:00] leaders together, along with our community members to find spaces where we can understand each other. And most importantly for me is to be able to share joy so that when conflict does occur, that we are there to be able to build bridges and communities as part of the healing that we, that has to happen.
Miata Tan: Let’s zoom in on the direct victim services work that CCSJ offers. What does this look like exactly and how is the Coalition engaging the community? How do people learn about their programs?
Janice Li: We receive referrals from everyone, but initially, and to this day, we still receive a number of referrals from the police department as well as the District Attorney’s Victim Services division, where, you know, the role that the police and the DA’s office play is really for the criminal justice proceedings.
It is to go through. What that form of criminal justice accountability. Could look like, but it’s [00:07:00] not in that way, victim centered. So they reach out to community based organizations like Community Youth Center, CYC, which runs CCSJ, direct Victim Services Program to provide additional community. Based services for those victims.
And CYC takes a case management approach. CYC has been around for decades and their history has been working, particularly with youth, particularly at risk youth. And they have a long history of taking a case management approach for supporting youth in all the ways that they need support.
And so they use this approach now for people of all ages, but many of the victims that we serve are adults, and many of them are senior, and almost all of them are limited English proficient. So they need not only culturally competent support, but also in language support.
And so the case management approach is we figure out what it is that person needs. And sometimes it’s mental health [00:08:00] services and sometimes it’s not. Sometimes it’s trying to figure out in home social services, sometimes it’s not. Sometimes for youth it might be figure out how to work with, SF Unified school district, our public school system you know, does that student need a transfer?
It could be the world of things. I think the case management approach is to say, we have all of these possible tools, all of these forms of healing at our disposal, and we will bring all of those resources to the person who has been harmed to help their healing process.
Miata Tan: I’m curious. I know we can’t speak to specific cases, but. how did this work evolve? what did it look like then and what does it look like today?
Janice Li: What I would say is that every single case is so complex and what the needs of the victims are and for their families who might be trying to process, you know, the death of one of their loved ones. What that [00:09:00] healing looks like and what those needs are.
There’s not one path, one route, one set of services that exist, but I think what is so important is to really center what those needs are.
I think that the public discourse so much of the energy and intention ends up being put on the alleged perpetrator.
Which I know there’s a sense of, well, if that person is punished, that’s accountability. But that doesn’t take into account. Putting back together the pieces of the lives that have been just shattered due to these awful, terrible, tragic incidents.
And so what we’ve learned through the direct victim services that we provide in meeting harm when it occurs is sometimes it’s victims wake you up in the hospital and wondering, how am I going to take care of my kids? Oh my gosh, what if I lose my job? How am I gonna pay for this? I don’t speak English. I don’t understand what my doctors and nurses are telling me [00:10:00] right now. Has anyone contacted my family? What is going on?
What I’ve seen from so many of these cases is that there aren’t people there. in the community to support those folks in that sort of like intimate way because the, the public discourse, the newspaper articles the TV news, it’s all about, that person who committed this crime, are they being punished harsh enough?
While when you really think about healing is always going to have to be victim and survivor centered.

Miata Tan: Janice Li describes this victim and survivor centered approach as a central pillar of the Coalition for Community Safety and Justices work.
I asked her about how she sees people responding to the Coalition’s programming and who the communities they serve are.
Janice Li: So the Direct Victim Services program is just one of the many, many programs that CCSJ runs.
Um, we do a wide range of policy advocacy. Right now, we’ve been focused a lot [00:11:00] on transit safety, particularly muni safety. We do a lot of different kinds of community-based education.
What we are seeing in our communities, and we do work across San Francisco. Is that people are just really grateful that there are folks that they trust in the community that are centering safety and what community safety looks like to us.
Because our organizations have all been around for a really long time, we already are doing work in our communities. So like for example, CCDC, Chinatown Community Development Center, they’re one of the largest affordable housing nonprofits in the city. They have a very robust resident services program amongst the dozens of like apartment buildings and, large housing complexes that they have in their portfolio.
And so, some of the folks that participate in programs might be CCDC residents. some of the folks participating in our programs are, folks that are part of CPA’s existing youth program called Youth MOJO.
They might [00:12:00] be folks that CAA have engaged through their, immigrant parent voting Coalition, who are interested in learning more about youth safety in the schools. So we’re really pulling from our existing bases and existing communities and growing that of course.
I think something that I’ve seen is that when there are really serious incidents of violence harming our community, one example Paul give, um, was a few years ago, there was a stabbing that occurred at a bakery called a Bakery in Chinatown, right there on Stockton Street.
And it was a horrific incident. The person who was stabbed survived. And because that was in the heart of Chinatown in a very, very popular, well-known bakery. in the middle of the day there were so many folks in the Chinatown community who were they just wanted to know what was happening, and they were just so scared, like, could this happen to me? I go to that bakery, can I leave my apartment? Like I don’t know what’s going on.
[00:13:00] So a lot of the times, one of the things that CCSJ does as part of our rapid response, beyond just serving and supporting the victim or victims and survivors themselves, is to ensure that we are either creating healing spaces for our communities, or at least disseminating accurate real-time information. I think that’s the ways that we can Be there for our communities because we know that the harm and the fears that exist expand much more beyond just the individuals who were directly impacted by, you know, whatever those incidents of harm are.
Miata Tan: And of course, today we’ve been speaking a lot about the communities that you directly serve, which are more Asian American folks in San Francisco.
But how do you think that connects to, I guess, the broader, myriad of demographics that, uh, that live here.
Janice Li: Yeah. So, CCSJ being founded in 2019. We were founded at a time where because of these really [00:14:00] awful, tragic high profile incidents and community-based organizations like CA, a really stepping up to respond, it brought in really historic investments into specifically addressing Asian American and Pacific Islander hate, and violence and.
What we knew that in that moment that this investment wasn’t going to be indefinite. We knew that. And so something that was really, really important was to be able to archive our learnings and be able to export this, share our. Finding, share, learning, share how we did what we did, why we did what we did, what worked, what didn’t work with the broader, committees here in San Francisco State beyond.
I will say that one of the first things that we had done when I had started was create actual rapid response protocol.
And I remember how so many places across California folks were reaching out to us, being like, oh, I heard that you do community safety [00:15:00] work in the Asian American community. What do you do when something happens because we’ve just heard from this client, or there was this incident that happened in our community.
We just don’t know what to do. Just to be able to share our protocol, share what we’ve learned, why we did this, and say like, Hey, you translate and interpret this for how it works. In whatever community you’re in and you know, whatever community you serve. But so much of it is just like documenting your learning is documenting what you do.
Um, and so I’m really proud that we’ve been able to do that through the CCSJ Knowledge Base.

Miata Tan: That was Janice Li, the Coalition Director at the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice, also known as CCSJ.
As Janice mentioned, the Coalition is documenting the community safety resources in an online Knowledge Base. More on that later.
Our next guest, Tei Huỳnh, will dive deeper into some of the educational workshops and trainings that CCSJ offers.
You are tuned into APEX [00:16:00] Express on 94.1 KPFA
[00:17:00] Welcome back to APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA.
I am your host, Miata Tan, and today we are talking about community safety.
Tei Huỳnh is a Senior Program Coordinator at Chinese Progressive Association, one of the four organizations that comprise the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice.
Here’s Tei discussing where their work sits within the Coalition.
[00:18:00]
Tei Huỳnh: CPA’s kind of piece of the pie with CCS J’s work has been to really offer political education to offer membership exchanges with, um, other organizations workshops and trainings for our working class membership base. And so we offer RJ trainings for young people as well as, in language, Cantonese restorative justice training.
Miata Tan: For listeners who might not be familiar, could you help to define restorative justice?
Tei Huỳnh: Restorative justice is this idea that when harm is done rather than like implementing retributive ways. To bring about justice. There are ways to restore relationships, to center relationships, and to focus efforts of making right relations.
Restorative justice often includes like talking circles where like a harm doer or someone who caused harm, right?
Someone who is the recipient of harm sit in circle and share stories and really vulnerably, like hear each other out. And so the [00:19:00] first step of restorative justice, 80% of it in communities is, is relationship building, community building.
Miata Tan: These sorts of workshops and programs. What do they look like?
Tei Huỳnh: In our restorative justice trainings we work with, we actually work with CYC, to have their youth join our young people. And most recently we’ve worked with another organization called, which works with Latina youth, we bring our youth together and we have, uh, a four-part training and we are doing things like talking about how to give an apology, right? We’re like roleplaying, conflict and slowing down and so there’s a bit of that, right? That it feels a little bit like counseling or just making space, learning how to like hold emotion.
How do we like just sit with these feelings and develop the skill and the capacity to do that within ourselves. And to have difficult conversations beyond us too.
And then there’s a part of it that is about political education.
So trying to make that connection that as we learn to [00:20:00] be more accepting how does that actually look like in politics or like in our day-to-day life today? And does it, does it align?
More often than not, right? Like they talk about in their classrooms that it is retributive justice that they’re learning about. Oh, you messed up, you’re sent out. Or like, oh, you get pink slip, whatever. Or if that’s not their personal experience, they can observe that their classmates who look differently than them might get that experience more often than not
And so building beginning to build that empathy as well. Yeah.
And then our adults also have, trainings and those are in Cantonese, which is so important. And the things that come up in those trainings are actually really about family dynamics. Our members really wanna know how do we good parents?
When we heal our relationship, like learning to have those feelings, learning to locate and articulate our feelings.
To get a Chinese mama to be like, I feel X, Y, Z.
Elders to be more in touch with their emotions and then to want to apply that to their family life is amazing, to like know how to like talk through conversations, be a better [00:21:00] parent partner, whatever it may be.
Miata Tan: Something to note about the workshops and tools that Tei is describing for us. Yes, it is in response to terrible acts of hate and violence, but there are other applications as well.
Tei Huỳnh: And you know, we’ve seen a lot of leadership in our young people as well, so we started with a restorative justice cohort and young people were literally like, we wanna come back. Can we like help out? You know, and so we like had this track where young people got to be leaders to run their own restorative justice circle.
It might sound like really basic, but some of the things we learn about is like how we like practice a script around moving through conflicts too. and that, and we also learn that conflict. It’s not bad. Shameful thing.
This is actually what we hear a lot from our young people, is that these tools help them. With their friends, with their partners, with their mom. One kid was telling us how he was like going to [00:22:00] get mad about mom asking him to do the dishes he was able to slow down and talk about like how he feels.
Sometimes I’m like, oh, are we like releasing little like parent counselors? You know what I mean? Uh, ’cause another young person told us about, yeah.
When, when she would, she could feel tension between her and her father. She would slow down and start asking her, her what we call ears questions. and they would be able to slow down enough to have conversations as opposed to like an argument .
It makes me think like how as a young person we are really not taught to communicate. We’re taught all of these things from what? Dominant media or we just like learn from the style of communication we receive in our home , and exposing young people to different options and to allow them to choose what best fits for them, what feels best for them.
I think it’s a really, yeah, I wish I was exposed to that .
Miata Tan: From younger people to adults, you have programs and workshops for lots of different folks. What are the community needs that this [00:23:00] healing work really helps to address?
Tei Huỳnh: What a great question because our youth recently did a survey Within, um, MOJO and then they also did a survey of other young people in the city.
And the biggest problem that they’re seeing right now is housing affordability because they’re getting like, pushed out they think about like, oh yeah, my really good friend now lives in El Sobrante. I can’t see my like, best friend we have youth coming from like Richmond, from the East Bay because they want to stay in relationship.
And so the ways that, like the lack of affordability in the city for families, working class families has also impacted, our young peoples.
Sense of health.
And, this is actually a really beautiful extension of, growth, right? In what people are seeing termed as safety, From like a really tangible kind of safety previously safety was like not getting punched, interpersonal violence to now understanding safety from systemic violence as well, which includes, like housing and affordability or [00:24:00] gentrification.

Miata Tan: Through the workshops that Tei runs through the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice Communities are also exposed to others with different lived experiences, including speakers from partner organizations to help make sense of things.
Tei Huỳnh: It was a huge moment of like humanization.
And restorative justice is really about seeing each other, I remember too, like after our guest speaker from A PSC, our young people were just so moved, and our young people saying like this was the first time that they’ve shared a room with someone who was formerly incarcerated. they were so moved with like, how funny he was, how smart he was, how all the things you know, and, and that there are all these stories to shed.
We really bring in people to share about their lived experiences with our Asian American youth.
And then people wanted to like follow up and also Mac from A PSC was so generous and wanted to help them with their college essays and people were like, [00:25:00] yes, they wanna keep talking to you.
You know? Um, and that was really sweet. In our. Recent restorative justice work, and our most recent training with POed which works with Latina youth while we saw that it was harder for our young people to just, connect like that, that they were able, that there were like other ways that they were building relationships with
Miata Tan: What were you seeing that went beyond language?
Tei Huỳnh: I think it was really sweet to just see like people just trying, right? Like, I think as like young people, it’s like, it’s also really scary to like, go outside of your, your little bubble, I think as a young person, right?
One year we were able to organize for our adult session and our youth session, our final session that happened on the same day. and so we had we had circles together, intergenerational, we brought in a bunch of translators and youth after that were so moved,
I think one young person was [00:26:00] talking about how they only like. Chinese adults, they talk to other parents and to like hear these Chinese adults really trying, being really encouraging. There’s like something very healing.
Restorative justice is not an easy topic for young people. I think at the first level it is about relationships in community to hold those harder feelings.
I was really moved by this, a really shy young girl, like choosing to like walk and talk with another young person that they didn’t have like that much of a shared language, but Wiley was, they were just really trying to connect.
There are moments like when the, youth, like during our break, would wanna put on music and would try to teach the other youth, how they dance to their music. You know, like it’s just, it was just like a cultural exchange of sorts too which is really sweet and really fun
[00:27:00] [00:28:00]
Miata Tan: You are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans.
I’m your host Miata Tan, and today we are [00:29:00] talking about community safety.
Since 2019, the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice, also known as CCSJ, has been leading the charge in helping Asian Americans in San Francisco to heal from instances of harm.
From Direct Victim Services to Policy Work. The Coalition has a range of programs.
Our next guest is Helen Ho, research and Evaluation manager at Chinese for affirmative action in San Francisco.
Her research helps us to better understand the impact of these programs. Here’s Helen describing her role and the importance of CCS J’s evaluation
Helen Ho: My role is to serve as a container for reflection and evaluation so that we can learn from what we’re doing, in the moment, we’re always so busy, too busy to kind of stop and, assess. And so my role is to have that [00:30:00] time set aside to assess and celebrate and reflect back to people what we’re doing.
I was initially brought on through an idea that we wanted to build different metrics of community safety because right now the dominant measures of community safety, when you think about like, how do we measure safety, it’s crime rates.
And that is a very one dimensional, singular, narrow definition of safety that then narrows our focus into what solutions are effective and available to us.
And, and we also know that people’s sense of safety goes beyond what are the crime rates published by police departments and only relying on those statistics won’t capture the benefits of the work that community organizations and other entities that do more of this holistic long-term work.
Miata Tan: The Coalition for Community Safety and Justice, has been around since 2019. So was this [00:31:00] process, uh, over these five years, or how did you come into this?
Helen Ho: Yeah. The Coalition started in 2019, but I came on in. 2023, you know, in 2019 when they started, their main focus was rapid response because there were a lot of high profile incidents that really needed a coordinated community response.
And over time they. Wanted to move beyond rapid response to more long-term prevention and, uh, restorative programming.
And that’s when they were able to get more resources to build out those programs. So that’s why I came on, um, a bit later in the Coalition process when a lot of programs were already started or just about to launch.
So what I get to do is to interview people that we’ve served and talk to them about. Their experiences of our programs, how they might have been transformed, how their perspectives might have changed and, and all of that. Then I get to do mini reports or memos and reflect that back to the people who run the programs.
And it’s just so [00:32:00] rewarding to share with them the impact that they’ve had that they might not have heard of. ’cause they don’t have the time to talk to everyone .
And also. Be an outside thought partner to share with them, okay, well this thing might not have worked and maybe you could think about doing something else.
Miata Tan: Certainly sounds like really rewarding work.
You’re at a stage where you’re able to really reflect back a lot of the learnings and, and, and work that’s being developed within these programs.
Helen Ho: The first phase of this project was actually to more concretely conceptualize what safety is beyond just crime rates because there are many, Flaws with crime statistics.
We know that they are under-reported. We know that they embed racial bias. But we also know that they don’t capture all the harm that our communities experience, like non-criminal hate acts or other kinds of harm, like being evicted that cause insecurity, instability, feelings [00:33:00] of not being safe, but would not be counted as a crime.
So, Um, this involved talking to our Coalition members, learning about our programs, and really getting to the heart of what they. Conceptualized as safety and why they created the programs that they did. And then based on that developed, a set of pilot evaluations for different programs that we did based on those, ideas of what our, you know, ideal outcomes are.
We want students to feel safe at school, not only physically, but emotionally and psychologically. We want them to feel like they have a trusted adult to go to when something is wrong, whether. They’re being bullied or maybe they’re having a hard time at home or, um, you know, their family, uh, someone lost their job and they need extra support.
And that all, none of that would be captured in crime rates, but are very important for our sense of safety.
So then I did a whole bunch of evaluations where I interviewed folks, tried to collect [00:34:00] quantitative data as well. And that process. Was incredibly rewarding for me because I really admire people who, uh, develop and implement programs.
They’re doing the real work, you know, I’m not doing the real work. They’re doing the real work of actually, supporting our community members. But what I get to do is reflect back their work to them. ’cause in the moment they’re just so busy then, and, and many people when they’re doing this work, they’re like: Am I even doing, making an impact? Am I doing this well? And all they can think about is how can I, you know, what did I do wrong and how can I do better? And, and they don’t necessarily think about all the good that they’re doing ’cause they don’t give themselves the time to appreciate their own work because they’re always trying to do better for our communities.
Miata Tan: The Coalition for Community Safety and Justice is cataloging their learnings online in what they call a Collective Knowledge Base. Janice describes the [00:35:00] Knowledge Base as the endpoint of a long process to better understand the Coalition’s work.
Helen Ho: The Coalition for Community Safety and Justice was doing something, was building something new in San Francisco, and the idea was that there may be other communities across the country who are trying to build something similar and contexts across country, across communities. They’re all different, but there is something maybe we could share and learn from each other.
And so with this Knowledge Base Catalog, the impetus was to recognize that we’re not experts. we’re just trying things, building things, and we, we make a lot of mistakes and we’re just doing the best that we can, but we’ve learned something and we’ll, we’ll share it. and this.
Kind of approach really reminded me of a recipe book where you develop a recipe after many, many, many times of testing and tweaking and [00:36:00] building, and there’s a recipe that really works for you. And then you can share it. And if you explain, you know, the different steps and some of the. You know, ingredients that are helpful, the techniques and why you chose to do certain things.
Someone else can look at that recipe and tweak it how they want. And make it suitable for your own community and context. and once I got onto that analogy it blossomed to something else because. Also the act of creating food, like cooking and feeding our communities is something so important , and yet sometimes it can be seen as not serious.
And that’s really similar to community Safety is a very serious issue. But then. There’s some worries that when we talk about like restoration and healing that’s not a serious enough reaction response to safety issues, but when in fact it is crucial and essential, you know, healing and [00:37:00] restoration are crucial for our communities as much as cooking and feeding our communities and both are serious, even if some people think that they’re not serious.
Miata Tan: I hear you. I love that metaphor with cooking and the recipe book as well.
For our listeners, could you explain where the Knowledge Base Catalog lives online and how people can access it?
Helen Ho: Sure. You can go to our [email protected] and there’s a little tab that says Knowledge Base. And you can either access it through the PDF version where you can get all of the catalog entries in one file, or you can search our database and you can filter or search by different things that you’re interested in.
So there a lot of programs have, cross functions or cross, aspects to them that might be of interest to you.
So for example, if you. We’re interested in programs to cultivate trusted community figures so you can look at the different programs that we’ve done that in different contexts in housing, at schools, or in business [00:38:00] corridors, because when you cultivate those trusted figures, when something bad happens, people then know who to go to, and it’s much easier to access resources.
You can also, if you’re interested in, in language programs, you know, how did we think about doing programming for immigrant communities in their native languages?
You can look at our tags and look at all of the programs that are in language. So our Chinese language, restorative justice, or our Chinese language victim services. You can look at all the different ways that we’ve, done our programming in language and not just in terms of translating something that wasn’t English into Chinese, but creating something from the Chinese cultural perspective that would be more resonant with our community members.
Miata Tan: How are you reflecting back this work through your research and the Knowledge Base Catalog?
Helen Ho: Before each evaluation, I interviewed the implementers to understand, you know… what’s your vision of success? If your [00:39:00] program was successful beyond as wildest dreams what do you think you would see? What do you think people would say about it? And based on those answers, I was able to create some questions and, and measures to then understand. What you know, what assessment would look like in terms of these interviews with, um, program participants or collaborators.
And so then I was able to reflect back in these memos about, insights that program participants learned or feelings that they, that they had or for. Program collaborators, what they’ve seen in their partnerships with us and what they appreciate about our approach and our programming.
And also avenues that we could improve our programs.
Because we know that harm and violence, although we often talk about them in terms of singular incidents, it’s actually a systemic issue. And systemic is a word that people throw around and we don’t even know. Like it’s so thrown around so much out. I, I don’t even remember what it means anymore, but.
But we know that there are [00:40:00] big societal issues that cause harm. There’s poverty, there’s unaddressed mental health and behavioral health issues. There is just a lot of stress that is around that makes us. More tense and flare up and also, or have tensions flare up into conflict which makes us feel unsafe.
And so there are policies that we can put in place to create a more. Complete instead of a patchwork system of support and resources so that people can feel more secure economically physically, uh, health wise. And all of that contributes to a, strong lasting and holistic sense of safety.
Miata Tan: As Janice and Helen have both mentioned The Coalition was able to grow in part due to funding that was made during 2019 and 2020 when we were seeing more acts of hate and [00:41:00] violence against Asian Americans.
California’s Stop the Hate program was one of those investments. Helen explains more about how the work has continued to expand.

Helen Ho: Another reason why the Coalition has been able to evolve is the, government investment in these programs and holistic safety programming. So. The city of San Francisco has been really great through their grants in looking in funding, holistic programming for different racial and ethnic communities and the state. Also, through their Stop the Hate grant has been able to fund programming and also the research and evaluation work that allows us to learn and evolve. Improve and also. Take these learnings beyond when grant programs might end and programs might end, and so that we can hopefully hold onto this, these learnings and not have to start from scratch the next [00:42:00] time
Miata Tan: Thank you for laying all that out, Helen. So it sounds like there’s a lot of different stakeholders that are really helping to aid this work and move it forward.
What have you seen, like what are folks saying have had an impact on their community in a, in a positive way?
Helen Ho: Yeah. There’s so much that. The Coalition has done and, and many different impacts. But one program that I evaluated, it was community Youth Center, CYC’s, School Outreach Program in which they have teams of adults regularly attending lunch periods or school release periods at several schools in the city.
And the idea here is that. At lunchtime or at score release period, kids are free. They’re like, we’re done with class, we’re just gonna be out there wild. And they’re figuring how to navigating social relationships, how to be in the world, who they are. , That can come with a lot of conflict, [00:43:00] insecurity a lot of difficulties that then end up, if they escalate enough, could turn into harm.
For example, it’s middle school kids are playing basketball and so when someone loses a game, they might start a argument and what the school outreach team would do is they’re there. They’ve already built relationships with the students. They can step in and say, Hey, what’s going on?
Let’s talk about this. And they can prevent. Conflicts from escalating into physical harm and also create a teaching moment for students to learn how to resolve their conflicts, how to deal with their difficult emotions of losing and equipping them with tools in the future to then also navigate conflict and, and prevent harm.
And so I was able to interview the school collaborators uh, administrators or deans to understand, you know, why did they call on CYC, why did they want to establish this partnership and let adults outside the school come into the [00:44:00] school? And they were just so appreciative of the expertise and experience of the team that they knew.
That they could trust the team to develop warm, strong relationships with students of all races and, and identities. That there was not going to be a bias that these adults, the team would be approachable. And so this team brought in both the trust, not only social emotional skills and conflict navigation, but also the organization and responsibility of keeping students physically safe.
Another program which is the development of in-language Chinese restorative justice programming and also restorative justice program for Asian American youth. And in interviewing the folks who went through these training programs, I myself learned, truly learned what restorative [00:45:00] justice is.
Essentially restorative justice takes the approach that we should, not look to punishment for punishment’s sake, but to look at accountability and to restore what has been harmed or lost through, you know, an act of harm in order to do that, we actually have to build community you know, restoring after harm has been done requires relationships and trust for it to be most effective.
And so what was really transformative for me was listening to.
Youth, high schoolers learn about restorative justice, a completely new idea because so much of their life has been punitive at the home. They do something wrong, they’re punished at school, they do something wrong, they’re punished. And it’s just a default way of reacting to quote unquote wrong. But these youth learned.
All of these different [00:46:00] skills for navigating conflict that truly transform the way that they relate to everyone in their life. youth were talking to me about, resolving conflicts with their parents. To believe that their parents could change too.
So, you know, what does that have to do with criminal justice? Well, when we think about people who have harmed, a lot of times we’re hesitant to go through a restorative route where we just want them to take accountability rather than being punished for punishment’s sake for them to change their behavior.
But one criticism or barrier to that is we think, oh, they can’t change. But you know, if your middle-aged immigrant parent who you thought could never change, could change the sky’s the limit in terms of who can change their behavior and be in a better relationship with you.
Miata Tan: These workshops are so important in helping to really bring people together and also insight that change.
Helen Ho: We also wanna look ahead to [00:47:00] deeper and longer term healing.
And so what can we do to restore a sense of safety, a sense of community and especially, um, with a lot of heightened, uh, racial tensions, especially between Asian and black communities that you know, the media and other actors take advantage of our goal of the Coalition is to be able to deescalate those tensions and find ways for communities to see each other and work together and then realize that we can do more to help each other and prevent harm within and across our communities if we work together.
For example, we’re doing a transit safety audit with our community members, where we’ve invited our community members who are in for our organization, mainly Chinese, immigrants who don’t speak English very well to come with us and ride.
The bus lines that are most important to our community coming in and out of Chinatown [00:48:00] to assess what on this bus or this ride makes you feel safe or unsafe, and how can we change something to make you feel safe on the bus? it’s so important because public transportation is a lifeline for our community, And so we completed those bus ride alongs and folks are writing in their notebooks and they shared so many.
Amazing observations and recommendations that we’re now compiling and writing a report to then recommend to, um, S-F-M-T-A, our transit agency the bus. Is one of the few places where a bunch of strangers are in close quarters, a bunch of strangers from many different walks of life.
Many different communities are in close quarters, and we just have to learn how to exist with each other. And it could be a really great way for us to practice that skill if we could just do some public education on, how to ride the bus.

Miata Tan: I asked [00:49:00] Helen about how she hopes people will access and build on the learnings in CCS J’s Collective Knowledge Base.
Helen Ho: Each community will have its own needs and community dynamics And community resources. And so it’s hard to say that there’s a one size fits all approach, which is also why the recipe book approach is more fitting because everyone just needs to kind of take things, uh, and tweak it to their own contexts. I would just say that for taking it either statewide or nationwide, it’s just that something needs to be done in a coordinated fashion that understands the. Importance of long-term solutions for safety and holistic solutions for safety. The understands that harm is done when people’s needs are not met, and so we must refocus once we have responded to the crises in the moment of harm, that we [00:50:00] also look to long-term and long lasting community safety solutions.
Miata Tan: So with this Knowledge Base, anyone can access it online. Who do you hope will take a peek inside?
Helen Ho: Who do I hope would take a peek at the Knowledge Base? I would really love for other people who are at a crossroads just like we were in the early. Days who are scrambling, are building something new and are just in go, go, go mode to come look at some of what we’ve done so that they just don’t have to reinvent the wheel.
They could just take something, take one of our templates or. Take some of our topics workshop topics. Something where it just saves them a bunch of time that they don’t have to figure it out and then they can move on to the next step of evolving their programs even more. Um, I think that’s my greatest hope.
I think another this might be too cynical, but I also feel like with [00:51:00] the political. Interest waning in Asian American community safety, that there’s going to be a loss of resources. You know, hopefully we can get more resources to sustain these programs, but in reality, a lot of programs will not continue.
And it is a tragedy because the people who have developed these programs and worked on them for years Have built so much knowledge and experience and when we just cut programs short, we lose it. We lose the people who have built not only the experience of running this program, but the relationships that they’ve built in our community that are so hard to replicate and build up again.
So my hope is that in however many years when we get another influx of resources from when people care about Asian American community safety, again, that somewhere some will dust off this Knowledge Base. And again, not have [00:52:00] to start from scratch, but, start at a further point so that we can, again, evolve our approach and, and do better for our communities.
Miata Tan: That’s really beautiful. Hoping that people for the future can access it.
Helen Ho: Another thing about, people either from the future and also in this current moment when they’re also asking what’s being done. Because I think a part of feeling not safe is that no one’s coming to help me and the cynicism of no one’s doing anything about this.
And and also. a withdrawal from our community saying, oh, our Asian, the Asian American community, they’re approaching it in the wrong way or not doing the right what, whatever it is that your criticism is. But my hope is that folks in our community, folks in the future, folks outside of our, you know, Asian American community, can come to this Knowledge Base and see what we’re doing.
[00:53:00] Realize that there are, there is a lot of work being put into creating long-term, equitable, holistic safety solutions that can heal individuals in our community, heal our communities at a as a whole, and heal our relationships between communities. And there’s so much good being done and that. If more folks join in our collaborations or in our efforts to get more resources to sustain these programs, we can really continue doing great things.
Miata Tan: With this Knowledge Base catalog, is there a way you hope it will continue to evolve to help better inform, I guess someone who might be on the other side of the country or in a totally different place? Miles away from San Francisco.
Helen Ho: I would love to be able to do more evaluations and documenting of our work. I mean, we’re continually doing more and new stuff. , Even [00:54:00] in a period where we don’t have as many resources, we’re still doing a lot of work. For example. We are continuing our work to get SFPD to implement a language access policy that works for our communities.
And we’re doing more and more work on that. And to be able to document that and share that new work would be really exciting. Um, and any other of our new initiatives
I will say, going back to the recipe book analogy or metaphor, I don’t know if this is just me, but when I have a cookbook, it’s great. It’s like so long. There’s so many recipes. I only use three of them and I use those three all of the time. so that’s what I was also thinking about for the Knowledge Base where there’s a lot of stuff in here.
Hopefully you can find a few things that resonate with you that you can really carry with you into your practice.
Miata Tan: Thank you so much for speaking with me today, Helen.
Helen Ho: Thank you for having me.
[00:55:00]
Miata Tan: The music we played throughout today’s [00:56:00] episode was by the incredible Mark Izu check out stick song from his 1992 album Circle of Fire. Such a beautiful track,
Now, a big thank you to Janice Tay and Helen for joining me on today’s show. You can learn more about the Coalition for Community Safety and Justice via their website. That’s ccsjsf.org
Make sure to check out their fantastic Knowledge Base Catalog that Helen spoke to us about from examples of victim centered support programs to rapid response resources during instances of community harm. There’s some really important information on there.
And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in.
For show notes, check out our website. That’s kpfa.org/program/APEX-express.
APEX Express is a collective of activists that include [00:57:00] Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam.
Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan.
Get some rest y’all .

The post APEX Express – 1.22.26 – What Is Community Safety? appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 1.15.26 – Chat with Authors
15 tammi· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight’s Host Miko Lee speaks with authors who have used their personal lives to tell their stories. They both talk and write about trauma, joy and resilience but in two very different ways. First up she chats with Chanel Miller. Many folx might know of Chanel’s best selling first book Know My Name which expands on the powerful victim impact letter she wrote to Brock Turner who brutally sexually assaulted her on the Stanford Campus. We talk about her latest work – two delightful books for young people.
Then Miko talks with Kazu Haga who weaves his spiritual practice and trauma healing with a deep lineage of nonviolent social change. In his books, Fierce Vulnerability and Healing Resistance he shares with us his personal journey and offers some insightful visions for our current tumultuous world.
Links to the Author’s work:
Kazu Haga
Fierce Vulnerability Kinship Lab,
Chanel Miller
Chanel Miller The Moon Without Stars
Purchase Chanel’s books at East Wind Books and Kazu’s books at Parallax Press
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
APEX Opening: Apex Express. Asian Pacific Expression. Community and cultural coverage. Music and calendar. New visions and voices. Coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.
Miko Lee: Good evening. Welcome to apex express. This is your host, Miko Lee. Join us as you hop along the apex express. Tonight I speak with authors who have used their personal lives to tell their stories. They both talk and write about trauma, joy, and resilience, but in two very different and distinct ways. First up, I chat with Chanel Miller. Many folks might know of Chanel’s bestselling first book Know My Name, which expands on the powerful victim impact letter she wrote to Brock Turner, who brutally sexually assaulted her on the Stanford campus. But tonight we talk about her latest work, two delightful books for young people. And then I talk with Kazu Haga, who weaves his spiritual practice and trauma healing with a deep lineage of nonviolent social change.
In his books Fierce vulnerability and Healing Resistance, he shares with us his personal journey and offers some insightful visions for our current tumultuous world. First off, listen to my conversation with Chanel Miller. Welcome, author Chanel Miller to Apex Express.
Chanel Miller: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a delight to be here with you.
Miko Lee: I’m really excited to talk to you, and I wanna start with my first question, which I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
Chanel Miller: Oh, I have so many people. Today, you’re my people who continue to help guide me forward. I grew up in the Bay Area and I feel like honestly all of my books are attempts at saying thank you to the people who raised me, the English teachers in my public schools. For helping me stay aligned with myself and never letting me drift too far. And so even though I tell very different stories for different demographics, I think if you look at the root of everything that I write, it’s gratitude because they are the people who protected my voice in the first place.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much. So we’re talking about your third book. Your first book was amazing. Know my name, which is really powerful memoir about surviving sexual assault at Stanford, and this incredible public reclamation of your voice. And then you move from that very personal, internal, very adult work to your second book, which was so lovely and sweet. Magnolia Woo unfolds it all, which was an illustrated book set New York about a little girl and her friend who reunite people with their lost socks. From this all the way to this young person’s book and your latest book, the Moon Without Stars, your second, YA novel is based in middle school. So talk to me a little bit about this journey from personal memoir to elementary school to middle school books.
Chanel Miller: Yeah, so like you said, the first book was so internal and gutting to write. I knew I needed. Something that would help me breathe a little easier and get in touch with playfulness again. I wrote Magnolia Woo Unfolds it all. It’s perfect for kids ages seven to 12. My goal was just to enjoy the process of writing and story making. And it was confusing because I thought if I’m not, you know, during the memoir, I would be like crying while I was writing and it was just taking everything out of me.
And I was like, if I’m not actively upset. Is the writing even good? Like, like, you know, does it count? And it turns out, yes, you can still create successful stories and have a good time. So I did that book for myself really. And the kid in me who always wanted to, who was always, writing stories unprompted. Like you said, it was a book about a sock detective and pursuing socks makes no sense. It’s almost impossible to return a missing sock in New York City. But I loved the idea of these. This little girl in pursuit of something, even if she doesn’t know what the outcome will be. Right. It’s just trying even if you’re not promised a reward, I love this.
And for me it’s like I keep attempting to love my reality, right? Attempting to go out into the world with an exploratory lens rather than a fearful one. And so that was very healing for me. After I finished that book, I spent the next year writing this new book, the Moon Without Stars. It’s for slightly older kids, like you said in middle school.
So my protagonist Luna, is 12 years old and she’s biracial like me, goes to middle school in Northern California like I did in Palo Alto. I was just reflecting on my. Upbringing, I would say, and really sitting back and letting memories come to the surface. Trying to see how much, was just unexplored. And then sitting down to, to figure out what it all meant that I remembered all of these things.
Miko Lee: So how much of Luna is inspired by Chanel?
Chanel Miller: A fair amount, I’d say. And it’s not always an intentional, I think fiction deals a lot with the subconscious and you end up writing about yourself on accent luna in the book. She is the campus book doctor, is what I call it. Because when kids are going through something, they’ll come to her and she’ll prescribe them a book that’ll help them for whatever phase of life they’re going through. And I know for me from a very young age, I loved reading, writing, and drawing.
It’s all that I ever wanted to do and I was so mad in school that we had six different subjects and you know, the Bay Area was very tech. Centered, STEM centered. And so I felt all this pressure even through high school to take AP Science classes. In retrospect, I thought, why was I trying so hard to be good at it?
Everything. This is impossible. And so for Luna, I own her gifts early. And understand that they were gifts at all. The fact that she loves to read and then she shares her gifts and she takes pride in the things that she’s passionate about. She’s not ashamed that she’s not so hot about math.
Miko Lee: So the hating math part is a little Chanel inspired also.
Chanel Miller: The hating math part is fully me. I’m sorry to say.
Miko Lee: No worries. I think that stereotype about Asians and math is so highly overrated. I’m wondering if there was a Scott for you, a bestie that was also an outcast, if there was someone like that for you when you were growing up.
Chanel Miller: Yeah, so in the book, Luna is best friends with Scott. They’ve been friends since childhood, and as Luna starts to get more attention, their relationship is threatened and it begins to dissolve. I was really interested in how, Luna obviously loves Scott as a friend and she would never. Mean to hurt him, right? It’s not inflicting intentional emotional pain, but Scott gets very hurt.
I think about how sometimes when we’re growing up, we get drawn to certain crowds or paid a kind of attention and we have this longing to be desired to fit in. we sometimes make choices that we’re not very proud of, but this is a part of it, right? And so I wanted Luna to reckon with maybe some of the emotional harm she’s causing and not run away from it.
But also think about like, why am I making these choices and what is important to me? We’re all kind of constantly reevaluating our value systems, trying to keep our relationships alive, like this is, starts at a very young age and I wanted her to learn some of the self gifts that maybe I didn’t give myself when I was that age.
Miko Lee: So in a way, she’s a little bit of a remedy for your young self or a gift to your young self. Do you think?
Chanel Miller: Oh, that’s a nice way of putting it. Yeah, I would definitely say so. I think all writing is, is remedy in some form, at least for me, but I like the, it being a gift to little Chanel.
Miko Lee: It’s been compared to the classic. Are you there god, it’s me, Margaret? What is it like for you to hear that?
Chanel Miller: It’s an honor, obviously. I think what’s most stunning is a lot of the themes that were contested in that book. You know, talking about bodily changes, menstruation like. A lot of that is still kind of hush hush, and I’m surprised by the things that haven’t changed , or how our society hasn’t completely evolved. I really wanted middle school so hard physically, emotionally, and. It can feel so humiliating that you’re trying to solve a lot of your issues in private, and I wanted to take the shame out of it as quickly as possible and just say, this is a universal experience. Everyone goes through these things. It’s totally okay to talk about it, even if books get banned. Find a way, find your people. Find a way to have these conversations.
Miko Lee: For me, it’s so much better than, are you there? God, it’s me, Margaret, because it’s set in a contemporary. There’s a young biracial Asian American girl who’s a outcast and really it’s about belonging and getting your first period and all the things you have to go through in middle school. That seems really. Relatable for a young woman in our society. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. I read it really quick one night, easily read ’cause it’s so lovely. I’m wondering about your process because you illustrated, your last book and then also the cover of this book. And on the cover it’s sweet because it has all these cute little zines that she writes about are encapsulated on the cover of the book, which you only realize after you read it. I’m wondering for you as an artist, what comes first in the story, the image or the words?
Chanel Miller: That’s a great question. Yeah. I like to illustrate my books. Sometimes I’ll think of a, something I do wanna draw and then think, how can I build a story around that, or like a visually rich scene. Then I come up with writing to allow myself to draw the thing. Other times I will just write, but I, I will say that when I’m writing, I never have a plot.
I’m not an outliner. I am very much an explorer. I’m okay with not knowing for long periods of time where the book is gonna go, what it’s about , and how it’s gonna end. I don’t know any of these things. And luckily I have a very gracious, agent and editor and my editor. I had two editors, Jill and Juan, and they let me just submit chunks of writing for six months. Scenes that didn’t go together, that were completely out of order , to show them I’m attempting to build this world and this school full of kids, but I don’t know how it’s all gonna play out yet. And then after six months, we had enough material to, to begin to identify like who the primary characters were gonna be, what the essential conflict was gonna be.
I’m saying this because I want people to know that you don’t have to know much before you sit down to write. And the knowing comes with the practice of doing every day, and then slowly things start to reveal themselves.
Miko Lee: Oh, I appreciate that. So you don’t have a linear timeframe. You kind of just let things come to you. Sometimes they’re in images, sometimes they’re in words.
Chanel Miller: Yes. And then your job is to capture them and be curious about them and then make more until you have enough. Then you can edit, but you edit too early, you’re gonna , kill the spirit of the thing.
Miko Lee: When do you know you have enough?
Chanel Miller: When you fulfill the word count in your contract? No, no, I think it’s, it’s like you can. Sort of start to feel things click into place or a voice is emerging that’s very strong. Even Scott know, Luna’s best friend, I didn’t have him at the very beginning, I don’t think originally. Originally, I think Luna had a sister. It was gonna be a sister book, and then it became a friend. You’re just open to it evolving, and then suddenly you’re like, oh, I can, I can see this relationship. Can see them existing within the structure. It feels more real to you and at that point you can just go in and start revising
Miko Lee: Did you create images for know my name?
Chanel Miller: I actually tried to, at the very end, I made a bunch of drawings and I said, can we put these at the start of each chapter? And my editor, who’s incredible, she said, you know, when I look at your drawings, they have a different voice than your writing voice. And I was like, that is true. Like, that’s a great critique.
So instead I went to New York, they were like about to send the book to print and I was like, okay, but I need like one drawing. They said, okay, if you can do it at lunch, like have it done by the end of lunch, we’ll put it in the acknowledgement. So I dedicated the book to my family and. I sat at the desk and just did this little, these four little creatures that represented my immediate family and cut it outta my notebook. They scanned it in and sent it off to print with a book. So I did get, I did get it.
Miko Lee: And how is the illustrator’s voice different from the author’s voice?
Chanel Miller: The illustrator’s voice can be very loose, whimsical, playful, whereas the writing, you know, was so measured and heavy and intentional, and so. I liked that edit, and I also, my editor was confident that I would have more opportunities in the future to write and draw, whereas I felt so vulnerable. It’s my first book, it’s my only chance to say or do anything, but that’s not true. Now I understand like I have time to make all kinds of things. You don’t have to shove it all into one project.
Miko Lee: And are these, more youth-focused books? Do you feel like that’s more a combination of your illustrator and your author voice?
Chanel Miller: Totally. The medium like allows you to do both. It kind of asks for images also. Who knows, maybe, I still wanna write, contemporary fiction for adults and maybe I’ll adults like visuals too. Absolutely.
Miko Lee: Absolutely. Yeah. I’m wondering what you want young readers to walk away with after reading the, your latest book.
Chanel Miller: Things smooth out in really unexpected ways. And that you can never truly mess up. Like I messed up so many times growing up or would get a really bad grade. I really would think like, this is the end.
Like my future just disappeared. I just can’t recover from this, and I always would, and I’m here now, like there, there are so many times I guess, that I thought my life was totally and completely over and, it was never the case. Sure, life could be sour for a bit, or you could be really stressed out, but it’s not the end.
Different things will change. People will be introduced to help you. Like you just keep showing up in whatever way you can. You won’t be stuck in that place. It’s been a nice thing to learn, as you get older. I just remember when I felt young, it felt so impossible sometimes, and I promise it’s not,
Miko Lee: I imagine that with Know my name. Many people came up with you, survivors came up and shared their stories with you, and I’m wondering if that was the same with your second book, if people came up and just told stories about, being a kid detective or what their, if it brought things up for them in a totally different realm.
Chanel Miller: Oh yeah, absolutely. In the book, Magnolia’s parents are Chinese and, , they’re working at a laundromat and a customer comes in and there’s, microaggressions happen and, I think with microaggressions you can always. Justify them in your head and say, it’s not as bad as explicit violence or something, where it’s not a truly a crime.
And so you kind of push them to the side, push them to the side, but over time, like they do really stick with you and they’re so hurtful and they accumulate and they’re not okay to begin with. And I wanted my little character, Magnolia to. Just feel that anger that I often suppress and be like, it’s not okay for people to talk to you like that.
Like we are allowed to say something about it. It’s dehumanizing and it’s unacceptable. I wanted to give her the opportunity to confront that emotion and really express what, how it made her feel.
Miko Lee: You’re just starting your book tour right now. Is that right? For the Moon Without Stars.
Chanel Miller: My book comes out January 13th. I’ll go on a two week book tour. I’ll have two stops in the Bay area. One at, book passage in Cord Madera. One in Los Altos at a church. It’s sponsored by Linden Tree Books. We’re just doing the event offsite, so if you’re in the bay and wanna come say hello, please do that.
Miko Lee: Yay. Excited to hear about that. I’m curious, I’m really curious what kind of stories people will tell you about their kind of middle school bully experience or their standing up to bullies and wanting to be in the popular crowd and what’s that like? It’s such a common middle school experience.
Chanel Miller: I’m just really happy that people like have the opportunity to remember, ’cause it’s not what we talk about every day. I just love that things are coming up for people and you’re like, wow, I never would’ve thought about that or. I, I, that’s why writing is so fun. You get to remember.
Miko Lee: It’s definitely not what we talk about every day, but definitely that middle school time really, helps shape who we are as adults. That’s a really tough time because there’s so many hormones going crazy in your body. So many changes that I think a lot of people have big feelings about middle school. Tell us what’s next for you.
Chanel Miller: I still love writing middle grade like this age is so sweet. It’s so rich, emotionally rich. I would like to do something that’s, you know, this one was more contemporary realism and I would love to do something that, not pure fantasy, but like breaks the rules of reality a little bit. Just really see where my imagination can go. A little magical realism perhaps. Yeah, absolutely.
Miko Lee: I would just encourage you, I really love the Scott and Luna characters and seeing them patch their relationship up in high school as friends and how they can grow. Oh, I think would be a really sweet story also, and how they could explore maybe through magical realism. Some of the, book Doctors Zine World would be fun. Yeah. Yeah. I like those characters, is what I’m saying. I think there’s more to come outta those characters and their friendship.
Chanel Miller: Oh, that’s really sweet. You don’t wanna say goodbye to them yet.
Miko Lee: Yeah, that’s right. Well, it has been a delight chatting with you. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and your work and it’s very powerful. Appreciate chatting with you.
Chanel Miller: I really appreciate the platform you provide and how you’re making room for these genuine conversations. So thank you so much.
Jalena Keane-Lee: Next up, listen to blues scholars ode to Yuri Kochiyama. That was Blue Scholars, Ode to Yuri Kochiyama.
Miko Lee: Yuri Koyama said, we are all part of one another, and that relates so well to my conversation with author, organizer and teacher Kazu Haga. Welcome, Kazu Haga to Apex Express. I’m so glad to have you with us.
Kazu Haga: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Miko Lee: I’m gonna start with a question that I ask all of my guests because I’m a curious person, and my question is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
Kazu Haga: Oh, wow. Well, when you ask the second question, the immediate response is that I am Japanese. There’s a lot of important legacies that come with that. Of course there’s so much of my Japanese ancestry that I’m proud of and want to continue to deepen in and understand better. But I’m also aware that, you know, being Japanese, I come from colonizer people, right? And I’m so aware of the. Harm that my ancestors caused to so many people, whether dating back all the way to indigenous. I knew people in Japan, or a lot of the violence that my ancestors committed during the war to Zan Korean communities and Chinese communities and Filipino communities. I feel like in addition to all the beauty and the amazing things that I love about Japanese culture, that’s a legacy that I carry with me and a lot of my work has to do with trying to understand what it means to carry that legacy and what it means to try to heal from that legacy and how I take that approach into my own personal life as well as into my activist work.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for recognizing that history and sharing a little bit about your path. I can see so much of how that turns up in your work. So I’ve had the pleasure of reading your two latest two books. I’m sure there’ll be many more to come, I hope. Can you speak a little bit about what inspired you to create healing resistance?
Kazu Haga: Yeah, so healing resistance is my interpretation of a set of teachings called kingian non-violence, and it’s a philosophy that was based on the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King. And I have the great privilege to have been mentored by a lot of elders who work very closely with Dr.
King and were some of the most instrumental leaders in the civil Rights movement. I started my kind of activist career back in 1999 or something like that when I was 18, 19 years old. And for the longest time, the word non-violence didn’t have a lot of meaning to me. But when I was 28 years old, I think I took this two-day workshop on this philosophy called King Non-Violence, and that two-day workshop just completely changed my life forever.
I thought after 10 years of doing nothing but social justice movement building work, that I had some idea of what the word non-violence meant and some idea of who Dr. King was. But that two day workshop taught me that I knew nothing about what the word non-violence meant. Since I took that workshop, I feel like I’ve been on this never ending journey to better understand what it means to practice non-violence and incorporate that as a value into my life.
And so healing resistance is, yeah, just my spin on the teachings of Dr. King told through the stories of my life experiences.
Miko Lee: I really appreciated how you wove together your personal journey with your, understanding of movement building and how you incorporated that in. I’m wondering, I think it was in this book, but I read both of your books close to back to back, so I might be mixing them up, but I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the salt protestors that happened in India and the two years of training that it took them to be able to stand up and for our listeners, just like really back up and explain what that protest was about, and then the kind of training that it took to get there.
Kazu Haga: It was actually more than two years. So, you know, everyone, or a lot of people know about the Salt March. It’s the thing that I think a lot of people look to as the thing that really sparked the Indian Independence Movement, similar to the Montgomery Bus boycott in the US Civil Rights Movement. It’s when a group of people marched across India all the way to the ocean.
Engaged in an act of civil disobedience was, which was to go into the water and make their own salt. Salt is something that had been heavily controlled and taxed by the British Empire, and so the people who lived even on the coast of the ocean were not allowed to make their own salt. And so it was an act of civil disobedience to break a British colonial law saying that we are reclaiming this ancestral cottage industry for ourselves.
And one of the reasons why it was so powerful and drew so many millions of people out into the street was because when Gandhi envisioned it. He didn’t just put out an open call and said, anyone who wants to join the March can join. Ultimately, that’s where they landed. But when the March started, he selected, I think it was about 76 of his followers, and he chose these 76 people and said, you all are gonna start the Salt March.
And he chose those 76 people because they had lived in Astrom. And did spiritual practice and engaged in creative nonviolent direct action together for 16 years before they embarked on the salt march. So it was 16 years of kinda like dedicated residential spiritual training , and nonviolent direct action training that allowed these people to become the type of leaders that could draw out millions and millions of people into the street.
And so it’s one of the things that I really learned about the legacy of nonviolence is the importance of training and understanding that preparing ourselves spiritually to lead a movement that can transform nations is a lifetime of work. And to not underestimate the importance of that training and that rigor.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for correcting me. Not two but 16 years and a really a lifetime to, that’s right. To develop the skills. I wonder if you’ve been following the Buddhist monks that are walking across the US right now.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. And the dog, right?
Miko Lee: Yeah. Whose dog and that dog. And I wonder what your thoughts are on that.
Kazu Haga: I’ve really come to this place where I understand injustice and state violence, not as a political issue, but as a manifestation of our collective trauma. Like all the forms of state violence and injustice that we see, they happen because collectively as nation states and as communities and as a species, we have unresolved trauma that we haven’t been able to heal from. And I think if we can see injustice less as a political issue and more as a manifestation of collective trauma, then perhaps we can build movements that have the sensitivity to understand that we can’t just shut down injustice that when you’re responding to a trauma response, what you need to do is to try to open things up.
Things like spiritual practice and spiritual worldviews, like what, however that word spiritual lands on people. I think that there’s a broad understanding of spirituality that doesn’t have to include any sort of religious stigma. But when we ground ourselves in spiritual practice, when we ground ourselves in this larger reality that we belong to something so much larger than ourselves as individuals, then a lot more is possible and we’re able to open things up and we’re able to slow things down in response to the urgency of this moment, which I think is so necessary.
When I look at these Buddhist monks spending however months it’s gonna take for them to reach Washington dc the patience. The rigor and the slowness. How every step is a prayer for them. And so all of those steps, all of that effort is I think adding to something that has the possibility to open something up in a way that a one day protest cannot. So I’m really inspired by that work.
Miko Lee: And it’s amazing to see how many people are turning out to walk with them or to watch them. And then on the same hand, or the other hand, is seeing some folks that are protesting against them saying, that this is not the right religion, which is just. Kind of shocking to me. Grew up in a seminary environment. My dad was a professor of social ethics and we were really taught that Jesus is a son of God and Kuan is a daughter of God. And Muhammad, all these different people are sons and daughters of God and we’re all under the same sky. So it seems strange that to me, that so many folks are using religion as a tool for. Pain and suffering and injustice and using it as a justification.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. It’s sad to hear people say that this is the wrong religion to try to create change in the world because I think it’s that worldview that is at the heart of what is destroying this planet. Right. It’s, it’s not this way. It has to be that way and this binary right. Wrong way of thinking.
Miko Lee: Yeah.
Kazu Haga: But yeah. The first spiritual book I ever read when I was 16 years old was a book by Thích Nhất Hanh called Living Buddha, living Christ. Yes. And in that book he was saying that the teachings of the Buddha and the teachings of Jesus Christ, if you really look at the essence of it, is the same thing.
Miko Lee: That’s right. Yeah. This brings us to your book, fierce Vulnerability, healing from Trauma Emerging Through Collapse. And we are living in that time right now. We’re living in a time of utter collapse where every day it seems like there’s a new calamity. We are seeing our government try to take over Venezuela right now and put police forces into Minnesota. It’s just crazy what’s going on. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about this book. Clearly it’s the Times that has influenced your title and [00:34:00] in influenced you to write this book can be, share a little bit more about what you’re aiming to do.
Kazu Haga: Yeah, and you know, it’s also Greenland and Cuba and Colombia and Panama, and it’s also the climate crisis and it’s also all of these other authoritarian regimes that are rising to power around the co, around the world.
And it’s also pandemics and the next pandemics. And we are living in a time of the poly crisis. A time that our recent ancestor, Joanna Macy calls the great turning or the great unraveling so we can get to the great turning where all of these systems are in a state of collapse and the things that we have come to, to be able to rely on are all unraveling.
And I think if we are not grounded in. Again, I use this word spirituality very broadly speaking, but if we are not grounded in a sense that we are connected to something so much larger than ourselves as individuals, I think it’s so easy to just collapse and get into this trauma response state in response to all of the crises that we are facing, and so fierce vulnerability.
It’s at the intersection of spiritual practice, trauma healing, and nonviolent action, and understanding that in response to all of these crises that we are facing, we need powerful forms of action. To harness the power necessary to create the transformations that we need to see.
And at the same time, can we see even forms of nonviolent resistance as a form of, as a modality of collective trauma healing? And what are the practices that we need to be doing internally within our own movements to stay grounded enough to remember that we are interdependent with all people and with all life.
What does it take for us to be so deeply grounded that even as we face a possible mass extinction event that we can remember to breathe and that we can remember that we are trying to create beauty, not just to destroy what we don’t like, but we are trying to affirm life. What does that look like?
And so if fierce vulnerability is an experiment, like we don’t have all the answers, but if I could just put in a plug, we’re about to launch this three month. Experiment called the Fierce Vulnerability Kinship Lab, where we’ll be gathering across the world. Participants will be placed in small teams, that are regionally based, so you can meet with people in person, hopefully, and to really try to run a bunch of experiments of what is it gonna take to respond to state violence, to respond to these crises in a way that continues to affirm life and reminds us that we belong to each other.
Miko Lee: That sounds amazingly powerful. Can you share how people can get involved in these labs?
Kazu Haga: People can check it out on my website, kazu haga.com, and it’ll link to the actual website, which is convene.community. It’s K-I-N-V-E-N-E. It’s a combination of the idea of kinship and community. It’s gonna be a really cool program. We just announced it publicly and France Weller and Ma Muse and Kairo Jewel Lingo, and it’s gonna be a lot of great teach. And we’re trying to just give people, I know so many people are yearning for a way to respond to state violence in a way that feels deeply aligned with their most sacred beliefs and their value systems around interdependence, and peacemaking and reconciliation, but also recognizes that we need to harness power that we need to.
Step out of the comfort of our meditation cushions and yoga centers and actually hit the streets. But to do so in a way that brings about healing. It’s our way of creating some communities where we can experiment with that in supportive ways.
Miko Lee: What is giving you hope these days?
Kazu Haga: My daughter and the community that I live in. Like when I look up at the world, things are in a state of collapse. Like when I watch the news, there’s a lot of things that are happening that can take away my hope. But I think if we stop looking up all the time and just start looking around, if I start looking around in, not at the vertical plane, but at the horizontal plane, what I see are so many.
Amazing communities that are being birthed, land-based communities, mutual aid networks, communities, where people are living together in relationship and trying to recreate village like structures. There are so many incredible, like healing collaboratives. And even the ways that we have brought song culture and spirit back into social movement spaces more and more in the last 10, 15 years, there are so many things that are happening that are giving birth to new life sustaining systems.
We’re so used to thinking that because the crisis is so big, the response that we need is equally big. When we’re looking for like big things, we’re not seeing movements with millions of millions of people into the in, in the streets. We’re not seeing a new nonprofit organizations with billions of dollars that have the capacity to transform the world because I think we keep looking for big in response to big.
But I think if we look at a lot of wisdom traditions, particularly Eastern Traditions, Daoism and things like that, they’ll tell us that. Perhaps the best way to respond to the bigness of the crises of our times is to stay small. And so if we look for small signs of new life, new systems, new ways of being in relationship to each other and to the earth, I think we see signs of that all over the place.
You know, small spiritual communities that are starting up. And so I see so much of that in my life, and I’m really blessed to be surrounded by a lot of that.
Miko Lee: I really appreciate how you walk the walk and talk, the talk in terms of teaching and living in a collective space and even how you live your life in terms of speaking engagements and things. Can you share a little bit about the gift economy that you practice and what’s that about? Share with our audience what that even means.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. I love this question. Thank you. So the gift economy to me is our attempts at building economic structures that learn from how natural ecosystems share and distribute its resources, right? It’s an alternative model to the market system of economics where everything is transac. If you look out into nature, nothing is transactional. Right? All of the gifts that a mycelial network gives to the forest, that it’s a part of the ecology that it’s a part of. It’s given freely, but it’s also given freely because it knows that it is part of a deeply interdependent ecosystem where it will also receive everything it needs to be nourished.
And so there’s a lot that I can say about that. I actually working on, my next book will be on the Gift Economy. But one of the main manifestations of that is all of the work that I do, I try to offer as a gift. So I don’t charge anything for the work that I do. The workshops that I organize, you know, the Convene three month program that I told you about, it’s a three month long program with world renowned leaders and we are asking people to pay a $25 registration fee that’ll support the platform that, that we’re building, the program on.
And. There’s no kind of set fee for the teachers, myself, Francis Weller, mam, all these people. And people have an opportunity to give back to the ecosystem if they feel called and if they’re able to try to sustain, to help sustain our work. But we really want to be able to offer this as a gift. And I think in the market economy, a three month virtual training with well-known teachers for $25 is unheard of.
Of course $25 doesn’t sustain me. It doesn’t sustain all of the teachers that are gonna be part of this, but I have so much faith that if we give our work freely and have faith that we are doing the work that we’re meant to be doing, that the universe will come together to sustain us. And so I am sustained with the generosity of a lot of [00:42:00] people, a lot of donors, a lot of people who come to my workshop and feel called to give, not out of a sense of obligation, but because they want to support me in my work.
Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing and I was so impressed on your website where you break down your family’s whole annual budget and everything that you spent funds on. Everybody talks about transparency, but nobody really does it. But you’re actually doing it. And for reals, just showing something that’s an antidote to the capitalist system to be able to say, okay, this is us. This is our family, this is how we travel, this is what we do, and. I found it really charming and impressive in our, it’s hard to rebel against a system where everything has been built up so that we’re supposed to act a certain way. So appreciate you. Absolutely. Yeah. Showing some alternatives and I didn’t know that’s gonna be your next book. So exciting.
Kazu Haga: Yeah, I just started it. I’m really grateful that I have a partner that is okay with sharing all of our family’s finances transparently. That helps because it is a big thing, you know? Yeah. But one of the things that I really learned. But the gift economy is that if there isn’t information, if there isn’t transparency about what the system’s needs are, then it becomes dependent on every individual to figure out.
How much they want to give to that system. And I think the gift economy is trying to break outta that the model of individualism and understand that we are interdependent and we live in this rich ecosystem of interdependence. And so if people’s needs aren’t transparent, then it’s hard for people to figure out how they want to engage in that relationship.
Miko Lee: Can you share a little bit more the example of Buddhist monks and how they have the basket and. Share that story a bit for our audience.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. So historically, in a lot of, particularly south and southeastern, Asian countries, Buddhist monks, they go around, they walk their community every morning, begging, quote unquote for alms.
They ask for donations, and the people in that village in that town will offer them bread or rice or whatever it is. That’s kind of the food that, that monks and monastics eat. And so if a Buddhist monk is walking around with a bowl and you see that their bowl is already full, you have a sense, oh, this monastic might not need any more food, but the next monastic that comes along might.
And so it’s this transparent way of saying, oh, this person’s needs are met, so let me hold on to the one piece of bread that I have that I can donate today and see if the next person will need it. And so in that way. If I share my finance transparently, you know, if my financial needs for the month or for the quarter are met, then maybe people who attend my workshops will feel like, oh, I don’t have a lot of money to give.
Maybe I don’t need to give to support Kazu Haga, but maybe I can support, the facilitator for the next workshop that I attend. And so, in that way, I’m hoping that me being transparent about where my finances are will help people gauge how they want to be in relationship with me.
Miko Lee: Thank you. I appreciate it. You talk a lot about in your work about ancestral technology or the wisdom, our ancestral wisdoms and how powerful that is. It made me think about the day after the election when Trump was elected. I happened to be in this gathering of progressive artists in the Bay Area and everybody was. Incredibly depressed. There was even, should we cancel that day or not? But we pulled together, it was at the Parkway Theater in Oakland and there was an aone leader and she talked about the eighth fire and how we are in the time of the eighth fire and you write about the fires in your book, and I’m wondering if you can talk about the seven fires and the prophecy belt.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. So through a strange course of events, I had the incredible privilege early on in my life when I was in my early teens, 11, 12, 13, 14 years old, to spend every summer going to the Algonquin Reservation, Anishnabe Nation, way up in Northern Quebec, and spend my evenings sleeping in the basement of Chief William Commander, who was the holder of the seven Fire Prophecies Wampum Belt.
This is a prophecy that told the story of the seventh fire that we are in the time of the seventh fire. And this is a moment in the history of our species where we can remember what it means to be human and to go backwards and to reclaim our spiritual path. If we are able to do that, then we can rebuild a new world, the eighth fire and build a world of lasting peace.
But if we are unable to do that and continue down this material journey, that will lead to a world of destruction. And this is, prophecies like this one and similar indigenous prophecies that speak the same exact things are the things that were. Just surrounded, that I was surrounded by when I was younger, and I’m so grateful that even though I didn’t really believe this kind of stuff when I was younger, it was like the, you know, crazy hippie newey stuff that my mom was into.
I’m so grateful to have been surrounded by these teachings and hearing these teachings directly from the elders whose lives purpose. It was to share these teachings with us because when I look out at the world now, it really feels like we are in a choice point as a species. Like we can continue to walk down one journey, one path, and I could very easily see how it would lead to a world of destruction.
But we have an opportunity to remember who we are and how we’re meant to live in relationship with each other and to the earth. And I have a lot of faith that if we’re able to do that, we can build such a beautiful future for our children. And so I think this is the moment that we’re in.
Miko Lee: Yeah. Thank you so much. Can you share a little bit about your mom? It seems like she was a rule breaker and she introduced you to so many things and you’re appreciating it later as an adult, but at the time you’re like, what is this?
Kazu Haga: Yeah. You know, she was. She grew up in Japan. We were all born in Japan, but she spent a year overseas in the United States as ex as an exchange student in high school. And she always tells me when she went back to Japan, she was listening to the Beatles, and she shaved her legs and she was this like rebellious person in Japan. But yeah, my mom is never been a political activist in the same way that, that I’ve become. But she’s always been deeply, deeply grounded in spiritual practice.
Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.
Kazu Haga: And for various reasons have always had deep relationships with indigenous elders in North America and Turtle Island. And so I’m always grateful. I feel like she sowed a lot of seeds that when I was young, I made fun of meditation and I was not into spiritual practice at all. 45 years into my life, I find myself doing all the same things that, that she was doing when I was young, and really seeing that as the foundation of the work that I do in the world today.
Miko Lee: And have you, have you talked with her about this?
Kazu Haga: Oh yeah. I live with her, so we regularly Oh, I
Miko Lee: didn’t realize
Kazu Haga: that.Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she’s read the book and Yeah. We have a lot of opportunities to, to yeah, just talk and, and reminisce and, and wonder at. How life has a tendency to always come back full circle.
Miko Lee: Mm. The paths we lead and how they intertwine in some ways. Definitely. Mm, I love that. I let you know before we went on air is that I’m also interviewing the author Chanel Miller in this episode. You shared with me that you are familiar with her work. Can you talk about that?
Kazu Haga: Yeah, so, you know, I talk quite a bit in both of my books about how one of the great privileges that I have is to do restorative justice and trauma healing work with incarcerated people, mostly through the prisons in California.
And one of the programs that I’ve had the privilege to be a part of is with the Ahimsa Collective, where we work with a lot of men who have an experience with sexual violence specifically, both as survivors of sexual harm and as perpetrators oftentimes. And in that program we actually used the letter that she wrote and published as an example of the power of what it could mean to be a survivor speaking their truth.
And we used to read this letter in the groups with incarcerated people. And I remember the first time I ever read it, I was the one that was reading it out loud. I broke down into tears reading that, that letter, and it was so powerful. And it’s one of those written statements that I think has helped a lot of people, incarcerated people, and survivors, oftentimes, they’re both the same people, really heal from the scars that they’ve experienced in life. So yeah, I have a really deep connection to specifically that statement and her work.
Miko Lee: Yeah, it’s really powerful. I’m wondering, given that how you use art as a tool to heal for yourself.
Kazu Haga: You know, I always wished I was a better poet or a better painter or something like that, but I do really feel like there are certain deep truths that cannot be expressed in just regular linear language. It can only be spoken in song or in dance or in poetry. There’s something mystical. There’s something that, that is beyond the intellect capacity to understand that I think can be powerfully and beautifully expressed through art.
I think art and spiritual practice and prayer and things like that are very like closely aligned. And so in that way I, I try to touch the sacred, I try to touch spirit. I try to touch mystery in the things that I can’t quite articulate. Just through conversation and giving in a lecture or a PowerPoint presentation, to, yeah, to touch into something more, more important.
Miko Lee: And is your spiritual practice built into your every day?
Kazu Haga: To the extent possible. One of the traditions that I have really learned a lot from and love is the Plum Village tradition founded by Thich Nhat Hanh. And they’re so good at really reminding us that when we wash our dishes, that can be a spiritual practice, right?
I’m the father of a young child. And so it’s hard to actually sit down and meditate and to find time for that. And so, how can I use. My moments with my daughter when I’m reading her a book as a spiritual practice, how can I, use the time that I’m picking up the toys that’s thrown all around the house as spiritual practice. So in that way, I really try to incorporate that sort of awareness and that reminder that I belong to something larger and everything that we do.
Miko Lee: After hearing Ty speak one time, I tried to practice the chewing your food 45 times. I could not do it. Like, how does he do
Kazu Haga: that? Some food is easier than others. If you eat oatmeal, it’s a little harder, but
Miko Lee: like that is some kind of practice I cannot do.
Kazu Haga: But, you know, I have, a meditation teacher that years ago taught me every time you get inside your car. The moment that you turn the keys and turn on the ignition in your car, just take that moment and see if you can notice the texture of the keys and see if you can really feel your muscles turning to turn the key. And it’s in these little moments that if we bring that intention to it, we can really turn what is like a, you know, a mindless moment into something with deep, deep awareness. Hmm.
Miko Lee: Thank you for that. That’s an interesting one. I have not heard that one before.
Kazu Haga: Nowadays I just like push a button so it’s even more mind less.
Miko Lee: That’s right. There’s just a button Now. Keys, there’s not even the time anymore to do that. That’s right. What is it that you’d love folks to walk away with from being familiar with your work? You, there’s so many aspects. You have different books that are out, you lead workshops, you’re speaking, you are everyday walking through the world, sharing different things. What is one thing you’d love people to understand?
Kazu Haga: Between both of my books and all the work that I do, so much of the essence is to try to help us remember. We belong to each other. I think the fear of isolation, the fear that we do not belong, is one of the most common fears that every human being has. Right? At some point in our lives, we felt like we don’t belong. And while that is such a real fear, it’s also a delusion. Like in an interdependent world, there is nothing outside of belonging, right? And so we already belong. We are already whole, we are already part of the vastness of the cosmos. There is so much power in remembering that we are part of the infinite universe, and I think the delusion that we do not belong to each other is like is the seed that creates the us versus them worldview, and it’s that us versus them worldview that is at the heart of what is destroying our planet.
In our efforts to create social change, how can we do so in a way that reminds us that even the people that are causing harm is a deeply critical interwoven web of relationships. That we are all in this web of relationship, that there’s nobody outside of that, and how can we go about trying to create change in a way that reminds us of that?
Miko Lee: Thank you. And my last question is, I’m wondering if there’s something that you’re learning from your child these days.
Kazu Haga: Yeah, the, just the, the pure presence, right? That each moment is so deeply, deeply real, and each moment is to be honored. Like I am amazed at, we were eating asparagus the other day, and she was eating a whole bowl of asparagus, and she desperately needed me to get her the one piece of asparagus that she wanted.
She was so frustrated that I couldn’t find the one asparagus that she wanted, and so she was crying and screaming and throwing asparagus across the room, and then the moment I was able to find the one asparagus that she wanted, everything is fine. Everything is beautiful. She’s smiling, she’s laughing, and so just to.
Not that we should be like throwing things around if we’re not getting exactly what we want, but how can we honor our emotions every moment in a way that in that moment there is nothing outside of that moment. That sort of presence, is something that I really try to embody and try to learn from her.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing with me. I really appreciate reading your books and being in community with you and, we’ll put links to your website so that people Awesome. Thank you. Can find out more. And also, I really appreciate that you’re having your books published by a small Buddhist press as and encouraging people to buy from that.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. Shout out to ax.
Miko Lee: Yes, we will absolutely put those links in our show notes. And thank you so much for joining us on Apex Today.
Kazu Haga: Thank you so much for having me.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining me on this evening conversation with two different authors, Chanel Miller and Kazu Haga, and my little pitch is just to keep reading. Reading is such a critical and important way we learn about the world. I was just reading this thing that said the average Americans read 12 to 13 books a year.
And when I checked in with friends and family, they said that could not be true. That they think they know many people who don’t read any books. And I am just encouraging you all to pick up a book, especially by an Asian American Pacific Islander author, hear our perspectives, hear our stories. This is how we expand and understand our knowledge around the world.
Grow closer to the people in both our lives and people around the world. So yea to reading, yea to Chanel Miller and Kazu Haga. And check out a local bookstore near you. If you wanna find out more information, please check out our website, kpfa.org, black slash programs, apex Express, where I will link both of these authors and how you can purchase their books at your local independent bookstore.
Thank you very much. Goodnight. Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important.
Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam Tonight’s show was produced by me, your host, Miko Lee. Thank you so much for joining us.
The post APEX Express – 1.15.26 – Chat with Authors appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 1.08.26 – Magical Realism and AAPI Short Films
8 tammi· KPFA - APEX Express
Think about the histories of your family or memories from your past. What if you recounted them with a dash of magic? What happens when we infuse our stories on film with some magical realism? Tonight’s edition of APEX Express features three filmmakers who created magical realism short films centering AAPI women. Listen to directors Cami Kwan, Dorothy Xiao, and Rachel Leyco discuss their films and experiences behind the scenes with host Isabel Li.
Cami Kwan: Website | Instagram | Seed & Spark
Dorothy Xiao: Website | Instagram
Rachel Leyco: Website | Instagram

Transcript
00:01 [INTRO]
Isabel: You’re tuned into Apex Express on KPFA. Tonight’s edition is all about stories. Think about the histories of your family or memories from your past. Now, what if you recounted them with a dash of magic? What happens when we infuse our stories on film with some magical realism? I’m your host, Isabel Li, and today we have three very special guests, Cami Kwan, Dorothy Chow, and Rachel Leyco.
All of them are AAPI filmmakers who received the Julia S. Gouw Short Film Challenge grant from the Coalition of Asian Pacifics and Entertainment and have created short films featuring AAPI stories with magical realism. My first guest of the night is Cami Kwan, a Chinese-American director specializing in stop-motion animation who directed the short film Paper Daughter.
Hi Cami, welcome to APEX Express!
Cami: Hello, thank you so much for having me.
Isabel: How do you identify and what communities do you consider yourself a part of?
Cami: So I identify as a queer Asian American woman um and I am a descendant of immigrants, of Chinese immigrants. um Then the communities that I am part of, part of the queer community, part of the Los Angeles community, part of the Chinese American and Asian American community, part of the mixed race community and part of the stop-motion animation and independent artist community.
Isabel: I’m so excited to talk to you about your upcoming short film, Paper Daughter, a gothic stop-motion animated Chinese-American fairy tale about a young woman grappling with the guilt of using the identity of a deceased girl to immigrate to the US via Angel Island in 1926, which is such a fascinating concept. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about how you came up with this story and the historical specificity behind it?
Cami: Absolutely, yeah. So like I mentioned, I’m the child of immigrants, descendants of immigrants rather. So my great grandparents immigrated to the US from China. My great grandfather came over in 1916 and my great grandma came over in 1926. And so I’ve always grown up knowing the story of Angel Island and knowing the story about the paper sons and paper daughters who had to find any way into the United States that they could. And so they were forced to, you know, take on the identities of other people. And those stories have always stuck with me, you know, like it’s very personal. Angel Island means a lot to me and my family. And just the extreme measures that people have always had to take just for the chance at a better life have always been really meaningful to learn about. just the like, I’ll use romances in like the art movement, like romantic. It’s very romantic and kind of fairy tale-ish, the idea of having to take on a new identity and pretend to be somebody that you’re not. And often those identities would be people who had passed away, and then those families had then sold those identities or given those identities to new people. And so it’s so interesting the idea of being like the last person to know somebody so deeply, but you’ll never get to meet them and you’ll never be able to thank them or repay what they sacrificed for your future. And that’s kind of how I feel as a descendant of immigrants. The sacrifice that my family made for me was made so long ago that there’s no way for me to ever pay it back. And I didn’t really get a say in whether I received that sacrifice or not. And I think a lot of descendants of immigrants kind of have to struggle with this. What does it mean for us to be given this new chance at the cost of somebody who came before us? And so that’s all of that kind of rolled up into this 14-minute film.
Isabel: You describe your film as being in a gothic style? Can you describe what this looks like and why gothic?
Cami: The subject matter is just so naturally gothic. It’s dealing a lot with death and a lot with guilt and those big capital R romantic subjects and stuff. My day job, my day-to-day job is working in stop-motion animation directing mostly like children’s series and mostly toy related stuff. And so I spent so much of my time in the happy brighter like birthday party storyline kind of like space. But what really made me want to be a filmmaker in the first place were all these like heavier themes, these bigger themes, films by Guillermo del Toro and like Tim Burton and Henry Selig and Hayao Miyazaki and all of those kind of have this like gothic edge to them. And so that’s like a story that I’ve been a type of story I’ve been wanting to tell for about a decade now.
Isabel: Stylistically, how does this show up in your film? So I imagine darker colors or do you have a visual like preview for us?
Cami: it is a little bit in the darker color space, but it’s still very colorful despite all that. It’s moody more so than dark, I would say. um We have a lot of like light and dark themes, a lot of like shadow. stuff and um a lot of magical realism, which is where that fairy tale aspect kind of comes in, because you’re dealing with things that are so abstract, like guilt and sacrifice and wearing the identity of somebody else, that there’s no literal way to convey that. Well, there are literal ways to convey that, but none of those literal ways I feel fully convey the emotional weight of everything. And so we’ve gone in this very magical realism space where people are tearing information out of these booklets that contain information about the person they’re supposed to be and creating these paper masks out of them. And so yeah, there’s this whole like magical aspect that tends to be kind of darker. There’s imagery of just like being consumed by the identity that you’re just supposed to temporarily wear. And there’s a lot of like, yeah, there’s a lot of darkness in those themes, I think.
Isabel: Wow, that’s so interesting. I’d love to learn more about stop motion. What does stop motion make possible that isn’t as easily accomplished through other forms of filmmaking?
Cami: Yeah, I think the reason why I’m drawn to stop motion, what I stop motion makes possible is like a universality of just like a human experience because with other kinds of animation and other kinds of filmmaking, like there is kind of like an opacity to like how it’s made. There’s this this veneer, this magic to it, and there’s that magic to stop motion too. But the difference between all of those and stop motion is made out of like everyday materials. It’s made out of fabric. using paper. We’re using clay. We’re using materials that people have encountered in their day-to-day lives. And like, that’s the one thing that we are all guaranteed to have in common is that we live in a material world and we encounter these textures and materials around us. so by like taking such a specific story and trying to convey such universal themes, it really like behooves us to be using like um a medium that is as universal as stop motion is. So I think that’s like the big thing that stop motion unlocks for us. Plus also story-wise, like it’s very paper centered, paper daughter, they’re tearing paper strips, they’re making paper masks. So like physically using these paper textures adds a lot to our world. um And I think working in stop motion gives you a degree of control that live action doesn’t give you because we’re creating. all of our characters, all of our sets by hand, which gives us so much of a say over what they look like and what they convey based on how they’re constructed and stuff. And that’s just a degree of communication that nothing else brings.
Isabel: I love that this is a magical realism film and you mentioned Guillermo del Toro. I know that in your campaign trailer, you featured Pan’s Labyrinth, which is my all-time favorite movie.
Cami: Me too!
Isabel: Yeah! How exactly did you come up with this specific blend of history and fantasy for your film?
Cami: I think that it’s almost a natural human instinct to kind of have history and fantasy. Like, that’s all that histories are, just stories told to us. And it’s just being less literal about it and really leaning into the metaphors that we might use to convey the emotional realities of those histories, right? And so I feel like Del Toro does that a lot with his work. And Miyazaki as well does a lot of that with his work. So much of it deals with unpacking like World War II and things like that. And that’s something that I’ve always just personally been drawn to. Even as a kid, my dream jobs were archaeologist or animator. And so here I kind of get to like do a little bit of both of those, know, like using the magic of animation to make history feel a lot more present and tangible and like emotionally relevant, which is It’s really quite poetic to be able to be telling this story right now because it’s going to mark the 100 year anniversary of my great grandmother’s immigration to the US. I think we are due for an examination of immigration in our country. And I’m very interested to see how people respond to the questions that this raises of how different is the immigrant experience 100 years later. Have we gotten better? Have we gotten worse? Like I would posit it’s perhaps worse now than it was then, but I’m really hoping to like, yeah, bring that reality into a more approachable space. And I feel like having that blend of magic and history just makes it a little bit more approachable than telling it in a literal way, you know?
Isabel: Those are some great questions to ask. And on that same note, I’m interested in the specificity of Angel Island as well. What types of research did you do to produce your film?
Cami: Oh, gosh, I read every book I could find about it. have… How many books were those? Oh, my gosh, I want to say, like, not as many as I want there to be, you know? Like, Angel Island is not as well covered in history as places like Ellis Island, and there’s a lot. to unpack as to why that may be, especially like the racial aspect of it. But I probably read about a dozen different books to prepare for this film. One of the most concrete and useful books that I read is a book called Island, and it’s a collection of the poems that are carved into the walls of the men’s barracks that remain on Angel Island. And those poems are a huge part, perhaps, the reason why Angel Island has even been preserved as a historical landmark. And so um the three authors went to great pains to replicate these poems, translate them into English, and provide a lot of historical context for the different topics of the poems. And there’s a lot of like first-hand testimony from people who immigrated through Angel Island that they interviewed and included in this book. And so I do think that that book, Island, is like the primary source of most of my research for it. Everything else is more like quantitative history and quantitative data. Oh, also The Chinese in America by, I believe it’s Iris Chang, that it’s not just about Angel Island, but I read that and that gave me a much better understanding about like the place that Chinese immigrants have in American history. Because when I was a kid, like I really only ever learned about great grandma came over through Angel Island and now we’re American and we live in America. But our history, as far as I was ever taught, begins and ends with us entering the United States. And so reading um the Chinese in America gave me a much broader understanding about, like, why did we leave China in the first place? And like, what has it meant for us to be in America as Chinese people since then? Yeah, all that came out of like in 2020 and 2021 when the rise of anti-Asian hate crimes were kind of coming about. I personally had to have a huge reckoning with like my racial identity and like how that has impacted like my experience growing up as a mixed-race person who’s pretty perceivably Asian and all that stuff. So it was a really whole circle broad situation. Oh, I want to do a quick shout out to the Angel Island Immigration Station Foundation. They were very generous with their time and they answered a lot of my questions and sent me a lot of archival images from Angel Island. So I want to thank them so much for their help in the research process of this.
Isabel: Oh, wow. How fascinating. Did you have any expectations on how the production process was going to go? And now that you’re on the other side of it, what are your reflections?
Cami: I had no expectations as to whether we were going to get outside funding or not. Like I, I’m not an experienced or adept grant applicant. Like, it was really just because this was the right kind of project to fit with those kinds of grants. So I had no expectations there. So I am beyond thrilled to have received the support from Cape and Janet Yang and Julia S. Gouw and Shorescripts that we’ve received, like beyond thrilled for that. So that exceeded all of my expectations. um But as far as how the actual production has gone, the fabrication and the animation and the post-production, that’s all stuff that I’m extremely familiar with. Again, that is my day-to-day life, that is my job, that is like what I have done for the last eight years at my studio, Apartment D.
So that all went pretty much as I hoped and expected that it would, but here on the other side, the one thing that has surprised me about it was how much love all of the artists put in this project because like we’ve said so much in this conversation, there’s so much specificity to this. This is about my great grandma. This is about my family and my feelings about being a descendant of immigrants. It’s so specific that I wasn’t sure how emotionally it would resonate with anybody else that wasn’t me or wasn’t part of the AAPI community, you know?
But every single person — doesn’t really even matter if they were Asian, doesn’t really even matter if they have a specific connection to immigration — every artist that I asked to join me on this project, I immediately understood what it meant and understood what we were trying to say. And they put so much love into it. And like, we all put a lot of love into everything we do. It’s stop motion. It’s like, you don’t do this unless you love it, you know, because you certainly are not doing it for the money or anything. um everyone was just so…I’m gonna say careful, but I don’t mean careful like cautious. I mean careful like full of care. And I did not expect that and I am so grateful for it. Yeah, looking back, it’s just so precious and so tender and like I’m so fortunate to have had the crew with me that I had to make this film.
Isabel: That’s so lovely. What are you most excited about upon completing your film?
Cami: I’m just excited to share it with the world. I’m so proud of it. It is truly, and I’m not just saying this because it’s my baby, but it is very beautiful and it is very special. For a lot of us, one of the first times that we’ve been able to be in charge of our own departments or to make the decisions that we wanna make and tell things, do things, show things the way that we think they should be done. And so it’s kind of significant for many of us to have this film come out and to be received.
What I want people to take away from it is an appreciation and a gratitude for everything that has had to happen for us to be where we are now. And I also really want people to take away the unconditional love that has occurred for us to be in the country that we have and to be the people that we are. Every single person is where they are. doesn’t matter if you’re in America or anywhere else, like we are all here because of the sacrifices that were made by the people who came before us. And those were all made out of unconditional love. And that’s like, I want people to come away from this film remembering that our country is built on the unconditional love and sacrifice from people who came before us. And then wanting to give that unconditional love and sacrifice to everybody who’s gonna come after us.
Isabel: Such an amazing message. And I know that there’s still lots to do and you still have a lot to celebrate with your upcoming film and with the festival circuit with Paper Daughter. But looking ahead, do you have any plans of what you want to do after the short film?
Cami: Yeah, I would love to bring it into a feature. There was so much that we had to cut out to make this film. On one hand, I’m glad that we cut out what we did because I think the film as it is, is like so tight and so like airtight and good and perfect and sparse in a really nice way, but we don’t even get to delve into life before Angel Island. It begins and ends on the island, and I would love to explore the stories that brought this all about and the stories that come after. So bringing this up into a feature version and getting that in front of people would be amazing. And I have a couple other short film and feature film and script ideas that I would like to start working on as well. I’ve kind of really, I’m really grooving on the like Asian early Chinese American history. um So most of them are going to be set in California and focus on like Chinese immigrants and their role in the founding of America. um I’m really excited for the like, after all the film festivals, I really want this film to end up in classrooms. And I even just the other day like I have a friend who’s a third and fourth grade teacher and she showed it to her class and then the students asked me questions about Angel Island and about animation. if this can play any part in helping to spread the story of Angel Island and the people that immigrated through there, like that’s all that I could ever want from this. So I’m really excited for that.
Isabel: That’s wonderful. I’ll put your website, social media and seed and spark page for Paper Daughter up on kpfa.org so our listeners can learn more about this stop motion film and get updates for how they can watch it. I can’t wait to see it when it comes out. And Cami, thank you so much for joining me on Apex Express today.
Cami: Of course, thank you so much for having me. It was a great, great time talking with you.
Isabel: You just heard Cami Kwan talk about her film Paper Daughter. On Apex Express tonight, we have two more special guests who made magical realism short films. Next up is Dorothy Xiao, who made the film Only in This World. She’s a Los Angeles-based award-winning filmmaker who likes to create grounded family dramas with a hint of fantasy.
Hi, Dorothy. Welcome to APEX Express.
Dorothy: Hi. Thanks for having me!
Isabel: Of course! Thank you for coming here. My first question for you is actually quite broad. How do you identify and what communities are you a part of?
Dorothy: Oh, that is a good question. I think in a broader sense. I would say, obviously, I identify as an Asian American. um But I think, like, for me, because I grew up in the 626 or the San Gabriel Valley, I grew up with a lot of people who looked like me. So I think I didn’t truly identify as being Asian or had awareness of my identity until later on when I went to college. And then I took Asian American Studies classes and I was like, oh, wow, I’m Asian. Or like, what does it mean to be Asian? You know, like, I think I, at that time, prior to recognizing and understanding what it meant, and also even to be a minority, because at that, like I said, growing up in 626, even going to UCLA, where I’m surrounded by a lot of Asians, I never really felt like a minority. But I think it was really after graduating where I, depending on the spaces that I would enter into, especially in the film industry, I was learning like, oh, yeah, I am a minority and this is what it feels like. And prior to that, I think I just identified as being a daughter of immigrants. And that still is very strongly the case just because I grew up listening to so many stories that my parents would tell me, like coming from China, growing up like they grew up in China during a completely different time. I can’t even imagine what it would be like living in the way that they did, you know, during the Cultural Revolution, under communism, in an intense way where they were starving, all this political stuff. But yeah, a second gen or for a lot of people, first generation, daughter of immigrants, of parents who decided that they wanted to make a better life for their kids out here in the States. I think that I want to stand by me saying that I don’t feel like I am, I don’t really want to identify as only just single categories all the time, just because within each community, could be, you could have nuances, right? Because I am a woman, but I’m also like a woman who doesn’t want children, you know, and there was just so many different things of how I identify. So hard for me to categorize myself like that. But they are, there are tidbits of different communities. Like I still identify, identify as Asian American. I identify as a daughter of immigrants. I identify as a female filmmaker and yeah. And a business owner, I guess. Yeah.
Isabel: Right. Yes. Thank you for that nuanced answer. You know, it’s so fascinating because I was reading about your work and you have worked in animal research administration and an afterschool program and even web development for nonprofits. How did you get into writing and directing?
Dorothy: Yeah. So after graduating college, I was definitely in a place where many, I’m sure, fresh grads understand what we call the quarter life crisis, where we don’t know what we wanna do with our lives. And I was working at UCLA because that was the only job that I could get out of college for an animal research administration office. And really, I worked for them as a student. So I was like, well, it makes sense to have that be my full-time job, because you’re in a place where you don’t have skills. So how do you get a job if you don’t have skills? That weird silly catch-22 situation. So I studied psychology in undergrad because my goal was to become a therapist. I wanted to work with Asian and Asian immigrant communities to help them with mental health because there’s such a stigma attached to it. And being somebody who found mental health really important and also found that it was a really great way to understand myself. I wanted to work with, I guess, the people of my community. But at that time, I realized that there’s still a stigma attached to mental health and it’s really hard to get people to even go to therapy. Like living with my parents, it’s really difficult. I cannot ever convince them to go. um And so I had pivoted into, or at least I discovered this filmmaking competition and ended up just like making a film for fun with a couple of friends, random people that um were not in film at all. And I had a lot of fun and I realized that we could actually create stories talking about things that are very similar to mental health or could provide that catharsis and validation that you could probably get in a session, in a therapy session. And it’s not clinical at all. It’s not as clinical. So, you know, on all those different jobs that you mentioned, they’re all day jobs, know, animal research administration and then working for an after school program. That was me still trying to figure out how to be a filmmaker on my weekends. I still needed a day job. I didn’t have the luxury of going to film school. So I would work at different places that gave me the flexibility of having a day job. But then also I had free time during the weekend to just make films with my friends, make friends films with people like my mom, who was one of my first actors earlier on. Love my mom. She did not do the greatest in my film, but I love her for being there for me. But yeah, like the different organizations or just jobs that I worked for were all really good in terms of providing me management skills and also communication skills because I worked in different industries, you know, and so at the end of the day, it all culminated in me at my current place. Like I am a freelance filmmaker and I also run my own video production company. So um becoming a writer, I mean, being a writer director is my main identity as a filmmaker. However, I don’t think you could be a good writer-director if you don’t have life experience. And having all those different jobs that I’ve had provided me with a lot of varied life experience and I interacted with a lot of different people, many different personalities.
Isabel: Yeah, no, I love that. So you grew up in Alhambra, which I’m familiar with because I too grew up in the San Gabriel Valley. How would you say that growing up in Alhambra has shaped you as an artist?
Dorothy: Alhambra is really special, I feel like, because in the San Gabriel Valley, there are many cities like this. You have Chinese people who can actually get by without ever having to learn English. And the same goes for Latin communities as well. And, you know, I have aunts and uncles who lived in Alhambra for years and never learned how to speak English. So I think it’s like, what’s so special about it, it feels like a safe space for a lot of immigrant communities. And then my parents being immigrants from China. living in Alhambra was a place where they could feel safe and feel connected to the people that they left behind in another country. And so being a child of immigrants, a daughter of like an Asian American, like a Chinese American growing up in Alhambra, I definitely felt like I grew up with a lot of people who were similar to me. know, we were like a lot of times the first American born children of our families even, and it was, we had to essentially understand what it meant to be Asian versus American and all of that.
But I think like being in Alhambra, I never felt like I wasn’t seen, or at least I never felt like I was a minority. I think I mentioned this earlier, in that growing up in Alhambra, you do see a lot of people who look like you. And I have a lot of friends in the film industry who have moved out to California because they grew up in towns where they were like one, the only person, the only Asian person in their school or whatever. And I didn’t have that experience. So for me, it was really special just being able to have a whole group of friends where there’s a bunch of Asians. And we all spoke different languages. Like I had a lot of friends who were Cantonese speakers, but I’m a Mandarin speaker, but it was just really cool. It was like going to your friends’ places and then you have aunties. So it’s almost like having more family. You could feel like you have more aunts and uncles that will feed you all the time because that is the way they show love, right?
Isabel: Oh, certainly. I think there’s so many stories in multicultural places like Alhambra. And speaking of which, you did in your film Only in This World. It’s about an empty nester who has to face her ex-husband’s mistress in order to summon her daughter back from the afterlife, which is featured in the 2025 Silicon Valley Asian Pacific Film Festival in Sunnyvale. Congratulations on such a beautiful film. I will say that I am a huge fan of magical realism, and Only in This World has some magical elements to it. So I’d love to get to know, how did you come up with this specific plot and characters that make up this film?
Dorothy: Yeah, and thank you for wanting to talk about this one. It’s a special story to me just because it is, I think it’s the first film that I’ve made where I just decided to incorporate elements of where I grew up. And so Only in This World is inspired by my mom and her Tai Chi group at our local park, so Alhambra Park. My mom would go to do Tai Chi every morning for years. And in Alhambra, actually, as I mentioned, because there are so many immigrant communities, many of the immigrant communities tend to stay together with the people who speak their language. So Chinese people usually stick together with the Chinese speakers, Spanish speakers stick together with the Spanish speakers. You don’t see a lot of mingling or intersectionality. But one of the special things that I saw with my mom’s Tai Chi group was that they were not just Chinese people or Asian people, but there were Latino people in their group as well. And so even though they couldn’t speak the same language, they would show up and still do Tai Chi every morning because it was a matter of doing something together. And so I love that a lot. And I wanted to tell a story about just older women who are finding friendship because I think that’s really important in older age and in these groups because you see that a lot of the people in these Tai Chi groups are even the ones, not just Tai Chi groups, but there are dancers in the park, you know, like you’ll see them in the mornings, not just in Alhambra, but in Monterey Park, all the different parks, open spaces, they’ll have little dance groups.
A lot of the people who are part of those groups happen to be seniors, and I think it’s just because they don’t have work, they don’t have children, they’re lonely. And so…I think it’s really important to be aware that where friendship or loneliness is actually an epidemic in the senior community. And it’s really important to providing good quality of life is to just have them have that connection with other people. And seeing that in my mom, because my mom is getting older, having her be part of that community was what kept her happier. And so, yeah, and also my mother-in-law is Colombian. And she’s done Tai Chi before as well with her group in Rosemead. And so I just was like, well, I’m part of a multicultural family. I want to tell a multicultural family story. Yeah, in terms of the magical realism element, I thought a lot about just how my family, if our house has ever burned down, the things that they would take out are our photos, the print four by six, like, you know, just the print photos because they’re just so precious to them. There’s something about hard copy pictures that is so special that digital photos just can’t take over. Like there is an actual energy to how a photo is made or even like back then when we used to use film, there’s energy that’s required to actually create photos. And so, you know, I wanted that to be the power that powers this magical scanner where energy is taken from the picture and then you have the ability to bring someone you love back from the afterlife. And I really love grounded magical realism because I think it just makes difficult things a lot easier to understand when you add a little bit of magic to it, a little bit of fantasy.
Isabel: Yeah, magical realism is such a special genre. What part of the production process that you find the most profound?
Dorothy: I think it was just really my gratitude in how much my family came together for me and also just like the people of this team, know, like there were, I think one major situation that I can think of that I always think is really funny was, um so we filmed at my mother-in-law’s house and my husband, Diego, was also working on set with me. He is not in the film industry. He’s a software engineer manager. He’s like in tech, but he is one of my biggest supporters. And so…when we were like, yeah, can we film at your mom’s house? He was like, okay. But he had to end up being the, quote unquote, location manager, right? Because the house was his responsibility. And then, and he was also my PA and he was also DIT. Like he would be the one dumping footage. He did everything. He was amazing. And then ah one day we found out that his neighbor was actually doing construction and they were hammering. It was like drilling stuff and making new windows. They were doing new windows. And we were just like, oh, like, how do we get them to, like, not make noise? And so, and they don’t speak English. And so we were like, oh crap, you know. So like, unfortunately, my producers and I don’t speak Spanish, like we’re all just English speaking. And then I did have Latinos working on my set, but they, you know, they had other jobs. I wasn’t going to make them translate and do all that other stuff. So then Diego so kindly went over and talked to them and was like, essentially we set up. They were totally cool about it. They were like, yeah, okay, you’re making a film. then whenever you’re rolling sound, we’ll just like prevent, like not hammer. And then so Diego is sitting outside with a walkie and talking to the first AD and other people inside the house, because we’re all filming inside. don’t know what’s going outside. And then so like, we would be rolling, rolling. And then um the workers, I think his name was Armando, are like…whenever we cut, Diego would hear it through the walkie and he’d be like, Armando, okay, you’re good to go. You can drill. Armando would drill. And then when we’re going, and we’d be like, I’m going for another take. And then Diego would be like, Armando, please stop. So it was so nice of them to be willing to accommodate to us. Because you hear a lot of horror stories of LA productions where neighbors see you’re filming something and they’ll purposely turn on the radio to make it really loud and you have to pay them off and whatever. And in this case, it wasn’t it was more like, hey, like, you know, we’re making a movie and they were so supportive and they’re like, yeah, totally. This is so cool. We will definitely pause our work, our actual work and let you roll down during the brief period. So we’re really grateful. We definitely brought them donuts the next day to thank them. But that was just something that I was like, oh yeah, like I don’t think I could have pulled that off if I didn’t have Diego or if the fact, if it wasn’t for the fact that these were the neighbors, know, that we were filming at someone’s house and the neighbors already had a relationship with the people who lived here.
Isabel: Wow, that’s really adaptable. And I’m so glad that went well for you. Dorothy, you’ve directed 13 films by now. Have you ever seen one of your films resonate with an audience member that you’ve interacted with in the past?
Dorothy: So there was this one short I had done a couple years ago called Tarot and it came at a time when I was struggling with the idea of whether or not I wanted to have kids and many of my friends are off having their first or second kids, you know, and so I never really wanted to be a mom, but then I have a partner who I can see being a great father, so I’m more open to the idea of being a mother, but it was still something I was conflicted about. And so I put this all into a short film, just my feelings of how my identity would change if I were to become a mom, because I’ve read so much about that. I found a Reddit thread one day where people were just talking about how being a mother is hard. And they openly stated how much they hated it. And it’s okay to feel that way. And I wanted to put those feelings into this film to just put it out there like, hey, like if you don’t like being a mom, even though you love your kid, you could still hate having that identity and be lost about, and it’s okay to be lost or not sure about who you are. And so it was a really short film and it ended kind of open ended. It was like five minute film, so it didn’t have like a full ending, but it was an open ended ending. And then afterwards I had a bunch of people come up. I had people who were parents, not just mothers, like even, or like fathers who had just had their first kid who were coming up and telling me like, oh, I totally identify. I understand that struggle of learning about who your new identity is after you’ve had a kid. And then I had people who were child free who were coming to me and saying like, yeah, this is a similar feeling that I’ve had about whether or not I should have any kids. Because, you know, as women, we have a biological clock that ticks. And that’s something I feel frustrated about sometimes where it’s really because of my body that I feel pressured to have a kid versus wanting to have one because I want one. And so that was a story I wanted to, or just something I wanted to put into a film. Yeah, and I also had another person come up and tell me that they were like, this was something I felt, but I never really openly talked about. And so I resonated a lot with this and it just helped basically articulate or helped me identify like, oh, I totally feel this way. And so that was really validating to me as a filmmaker because my goal is to reach others who don’t feel comfortable talking about certain things that they tend to hide because I have a lot of those types of thoughts that I might feel ashamed or embarrassed to share. But then I put it into a story and then it makes it more digestible and it’s like, or it’s more, it’s entertaining. But then like the core message is still there. And so people watch it and if they feel that they can connect to it, then I’ve done my job because I have resonated with somebody and I’ve made them feel seen. And that’s ultimately what I wanted to do when I wanted to be a therapist was I just wanted to make people feel seen. I wanted to make them feel connected to other people and less lonely because that’s something that I also have struggled with. Yeah, so filmmaking is my way of putting something small out there that I feel and then finding other people who feel the same way as me. And then we can feel validated together.
Isabel: Ah yes, that is the power of film, and Dorothy’s work can be viewed on her website, which I’ll be linking on kpfa.org, as well as her social media, so you can get new updates on what she is working on. Dorothy, thank you so much for joining me on APEX Express today!
Dorothy: Thank you! Thank you for having me, it was so great to meet you!
Isabel: That was Dorothy Xiao, our second guest for tonight’s edition of Apex Express, featuring magical realism AAPI filmmakers. Now time for our final guest of the night, Rachel Leyco, who is a queer, award-winning Filipina-American filmmaker, writer, actress, and activist. We’ll be talking about her upcoming short film, Milk & Honey.
Hi Rachel, it’s such an honor to have you here on APEX Express.
Rachel: Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Isabel: How do you identify and what communities do you consider yourself a part of?
Rachel: Yeah, I identify as a queer Filipina-American.
Isabel: So we’re here to talk about your short film, Milk & Honey, which is about an ambitious Filipina nurse who leaves her family behind in the Philippines to chase the American dream in the 1990s and facing conflicts and hardships along the way. How did you come up with this specific 90s immigration story?
Rachel: Yeah. So Milk and Honey is inspired by my mom’s immigrant story. you know, that’s really her true story of coming to America in the early 1990s as a very young Filipina nurse while, and also a young mother and leaving behind her daughter, which was me at the time. um you know, following her journey in the film though fictionalized, a lot of the moments are true and there’s a lot of exploration of assimilation, cultural barriers, loneliness and the emotional cost of pursuing the American dream.
Isabel: Yeah, when I read that synopsis, I immediately thought of this short film could totally be something that’s feature length. How did you sort of this story to something that is like under 15 minutes long?
Rachel: Yeah, so I wrote the short film script first. And actually, you know, this is a proof of concept short film for the feature film. I actually wrote the feature film script after I wrote the short because there was just so much more I wanted to explore with the characters and the story. It definitely couldn’t fit into a short film, though I have that short film version. But there was just so much richness to my mom’s story that I wanted to explore, so I expanded into a feature. So I do have that feature film version, which I hope to make one day.
Isabel: And you mentioned that this film is inspired by your mom’s story. Is there any other sort of research that you did into this story that really helped you write?
Rachel: Yeah, one of the main reasons I wanted to write the story, I mean, there’s many reasons, but one is because there, if you ask the average American or the general public, they won’t really know why there are so many Filipino nurses in the healthcare system. Because if you walk into any hospital, you’ll see a Filipino nurse, more than one for sure. ah so I was really curious about the history. ah Having my mom as a nurse, my sister’s also a nurse, I have a lot of healthcare workers around me. I grew up with that. I, you know, growing up, I also didn’t really know or learn Filipino American history because it’s not taught in schools. And I, you know, I took AP US history and didn’t learn anything about, you know, my culture and our history. It’s, not in the books at all.
And it wasn’t until like my early twenties that I was really curious about my roots and my upbringing and what it means to be Filipino-American specifically. And so um I really went into like a deep dive of just researching Filipino-American history. And specifically last year, I had been wanting to tell a story about a Filipino nurse because of my proximity to it with my mother. And you know, myself being an artist, being a filmmaker in the industry, there’s so many medical shows out there, like, know, Grey’s Anatomy, that’s been long running, but very, very few, and rarely do we see Filipino nurses at the forefront and at the center of those stories. um You know, rarely are they series regulars. You know, sometimes they’ll feature a Filipino nurse for like one episode or two and, you know, a recurring or a side character, but Filipino nurses are never the main character, never the series regular. And so that was another big driving force for why I wanted to make this story. And, you know, really making my mom’s character the center of it. And so as far as like research, too, I definitely interviewed my mom and I asked her to just tell me her her entire story and specifically why she even wanted to move to the United States because she could have stayed in the Philippines or she could have moved somewhere else. um she saw a newspaper or her friend actually at the time when she was in a nursing school, a friend of hers saw an ad in the newspaper that America was sponsoring nurses. And so she had it in her mind already like, oh, yeah, I’ve heard of America. I’ve heard of the United States that it’s, you know, there’s better opportunities for me there. And at the time she had just had me. And so she had, you she’s a young mother. She’s trying to take care of her baby, her newborn. And so, you know, she had her eyes set on moving to the United States and that’s kind of how her journey happened. And on top of that, I also did my own research on you know, our history, I watched this really amazing documentary um by Vox. It’s on YouTube. It’s all about why there are so many Filipino nurses in America. And it really just ties back to U.S. colonization. And after World War II, was so many, there was big nursing shortage in the United States. you know, white Americans did not want to, you know, fill that role. So they turn to Filipino women to fill the gap.
Isabel: Yeah, was there something special about the production process that looking back, you would want to replicate in the future or that really speaks to you?
Rachel: Absolutely. um Yeah, mean, definitely this experience and a lot of the people that I brought on to this project, I want to continue to make films with them and continue to make art with them because um I’m just so proud of the team that we put together. Everyone was so passionate and they knew how important the story was. They also had their own special connection to the material that they brought so much heart and passion into the film. that really comes through in the project. so like a lot of the people I brought onto this film, I want to continue to make art with them forever. That’s one thing that I’m really, really grateful for, because I got to work with some really awesome people that I had never worked before or I had been wanting to work with. And so it was such a great opportunity that was given to me to be able to connect with such amazing and talented AAPI creatives in my circle.
Isabel: Yeah, I saw on your Instagram page for the film that you shot this film in both Los Angeles and Austin, Texas. Have you ever done a production where you had to sort juggle two different sets in two very different locations? And how was that entire process?
Rachel: Yeah, that was really, it was really fun. It was my first time being able to film in two different cities, let alone like two different states, really. A lot of my past projects have just been, you know, shooting it with the resources that I had that were available to me. You know, usually like my past short film, Thank You for Breaking My Heart, that I did last year, we shot all of it in one location, which was of course like, know, that is something that’s really impressive in and of itself, of course. But, you know, because of the bigger budget that we had for Milk and Honey, I really wanted to challenge myself with this. And I really advocated for filming a part of the film in Texas because it is set in Texas. I was raised there. That’s where my mom was placed when she, because how the process goes is, you know, she applied for the nursing sponsorship and then they placed them in certain areas. And so she was placed in El Paso, Texas at the time. And so that’s where I also grew up. So I set the film there and I really advocated for filming in Texas because I wanted the film to have that feeling of the environment and atmosphere of Texas. um And so we shot some exteriors there for like this really fun Texas montage where you can really like feel that the character is there in, you know, in that heat, the Texas heat. So that was really, that was really fun. And I, you know, we shot, we shot two days in LA and we shot half a day in Austin, Texas. And we hired a second unit in Texas, because, you know, again, like, even though we had a really good budget, was still, you know, it was still pretty small. So I wasn’t able to, you know, fly my LA crew over there. um So what we did was we just hired a second unit crew in Austin, Texas, and they were amazing. And most of them were queer, non-binary filmmakers. And it was just such a fun, intimate crew that you know, we just breezed by and had such a great time shooting that.
Isabel: That’s wonderful. As a director, what inspires you and what are some of your filmmaking influences?
Rachel: Yeah, I mean, I’m constantly inspired by, you know, new films, filmmakers that I’ve seen, em particularly for Milk and Honey. I um so the film is, you know, this grounded drama, but there are a lot of moments of magical realism that I mix into it. love magical realism. love one of my favorite movies is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. It’s such a beautiful film, also very grounded, but it’s filled with all of this, you know, magical realism, surrealism. And so I infused that into, you know, Milk and Honey, which was really fun and a challenge to execute. But yeah, and some other filmmakers and creatives that I’m inspired by are Ava Duvernay. think her work is just incredible and also just an incredible artist overall. I love the kind of work that she does because it comes from such a deep place. And I love that she can combine art with politics and social justice as well.
Isabel: I also love that you said in your one of your project funding descriptions that you use your art as your act of revolution, which is so relevant given that, you know, in our current state of, you know, our administration is silencing and suppressing voices of our immigrant communities. And how do we as filmmakers, as artists, what does that revolution and representation mean to you as a filmmaker and artist?
Rachel: I truly believe that that art is our act of revolution and just merely creating the art is that act in and of itself. We don’t have to do more than that as from, in my opinion, as an artist, because the mere fact of us existing as artists, existing, myself existing and creating the work and having the work exists out there and putting it out. The most powerful thing that an artist can do is to make their art and share it with the world. And after that, just let it go, you know, forget about how it’s going to be received. Forget about like, you know, the critics and, and, and the, you know, self doubt you may have and all of those things, because yeah, it’s going to come. I think especially in the landscape of, like you said, of where we’re at right now with our current administration and you know, just who knows what’s going to happen in the next few years, but also in the face of like AI and technology and all of that, I think all we can really do as artists is to, in order for us to change the system is we have to be the change, right? And in order for us to be that change is just to continue to tell our stories and stay authentic to ourselves. Because I think that’s also what a lot of people out there are really craving right now. People are craving authentic, real stories by people that we really don’t get to see or hear their stories very often. And so um that for me is something that fuels me and my artistry every day.
Isabel: Very well said and a great reminder to all of us artists out there to keep making our art. What do you hope for audiences to take away when they watch your film?
Rachel: What I hope for audiences to get out of watching the film, well, one, at the core of it is a mother-daughter story. And I also did it to honor my mother and her sacrifices and her story. So I hope that, one, audiences will, you know, maybe reflect on their relationship with their mother and… um think of ways to honor their mother and their family and their ancestry as well. And another thing is to really think about what the American dream means to you, because that was another driving force for me with the film is it’s called Milk & Honey because a lot of immigrants coined Milk & Honey as America’s milk and honey as this like land of abundance, land of opportunity and you know, this is a, this is a place for creating a better life for ourselves. But I, for me, as I’ve grown up and as an adult now, really looking at like, well, what does the American dream mean to me? Is that still true to me? Do I still think the U S is a place where I can, where I can build a better life? Is it a place of abundance and something in the film, a big theme in the film is where Cherry’s character scrutinizes that dream and thinks for herself, like, is the American dream worth it? And what does the American dream actually mean to me? What is the definition of that? So I think that’s a big thing I would love audiences to also take away from it, you know, asking themselves that question.
Isabel: That’s a great thought to end on. I’ll be including Rachel’s social media and website on kpfa.org as usual so you can see if Milk and Honey will be screening in a film festival near your city during its festival run. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for joining me on APEX Express today. Thanks so much for having me. I really enjoyed it. Please check our website kpfa.org to find out more about magical realism in AAPI stories and the guests we spoke to.
We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting. Keep organizing. Keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important.
APEX Express is produced by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Cheryl Truong, and Isabel Li. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Isabel Li. Thanks to the team at KPFA for their support. Have a great night.
The post APEX Express – 1.08.26 – Magical Realism and AAPI Short Films appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – January 1, 2026 – The Role of the Artist in Social Movements
1 tammi· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Tonight’s show features Asian Refugees United and Lavender Phoenix in conversation about art, culture, and organizing, and how artists help us imagine and build liberation.
Important Links:

Lavender Phoenix: Website | Instagram
Asian Refugees United: Website | Instagram | QTViệt Cafe Collective

Transcript:
Cheryl: Hey everyone. Good evening. You tuned in to APEX Express. I’m your host, Cheryl, and tonight is an AACRE Night. AACRE, which is short for Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality is a network made up of 11 Asian American social justice organizations who work together to build long-term movements for justice.
Across the AACRE network, our groups are organizing against deportations, confronting anti-blackness, xenophobia, advancing language justice, developing trans and queer leaders, and imagine new systems of safety and care. It’s all very good, very important stuff. And all of this from the campaigns to the Organizing to Movement building raises a question that I keep coming back to, which is, where does art live In all of this,
Acts of resistance do not only take place in courtrooms or city halls. It takes place wherever people are still able to imagine. It is part of how movements survive and and grow. Art is not adjacent to revolution, but rather it is one of its most enduring forms, and tonight’s show sits in that very spirit, and I hope that by the end of this episode, maybe you’ll see what I mean.
I;d like to bring in my friends from Lavender Phoenix, a trans queer API organization, building people power in the Bay Area, who are also a part of the AACRE Network. This summer, Lavender Phoenix held a workshop that got right to the heart of this very question that we’re sitting with tonight, which is what is the role of the artist in social movements?
As they were planning the workshop, they were really inspired by a quote from Toni Cade Bambara, who in an interview from 1982 said, as a cultural worker who belongs to an oppressed people, my job is to make the revolution irresistible. So that raises a few questions worth slowing down for, which are, who was Toni Cade Bambara?
What does it mean to be a cultural organizer and why does that matter? Especially in this political moment? Lavender Phoenix has been grappling with these questions in practice, and I think they have some powerful answers to share. So without further ado, I’d like to introduce you to angel who is a member of Lavender Phoenix.
Angel: My name is Angel. I use he and she pronouns, and I’m part of the communications committee at LavNix. So, let’s explore what exactly is the meaning of cultural work.
Cultural workers are the creators of narratives through various forms of artistic expression, and we literally drive the production of culture. Cultural work reflects the perspectives and attitudes of artists and therefore the people and communities that they belong to. Art does not exist in a vacuum. You may have heard the phrase before. Art is always political. It serves a purpose to tell a story, to document the times to perpetuate and give longevity to ideas. It may conform to the status quo or choose to resist it.
I wanted to share a little bit about one cultural worker who’s made a really big impact and paved the way for how we think about cultural work and this framework. Toni Cade Bambara was a black feminist, cultural worker, writer, and organizer whose literary work celebrated black art, culture and life, and radically supported a movement for collective liberation.
She believed that it’s the artist’s role to serve the community they belong to, and that an artist is of no higher status than a factory worker, social worker, or teacher. Is the idea of even reframing art making as cultural work. Reclaimed the arts from the elite capitalist class and made clear that it is work, it does not have more value than or take precedence over any other type of movement work.
This is a quote from an interview from 1982 when Toni Cade Bambara said, as a cultural worker who belongs to an oppressed people, my job is to make revolution irresistible. But in this country, we’re not encouraged and equipped at any particular time to view things that way. And so the artwork or the art practice that sells that capitalist ideology is considered art. And anything that deviates from that is considered political, propagandist, polemical, or didactic, strange, weird, subversive or ugly.
Cheryl: After reading that quote, angel then invited the workshop participants to think about what that means for them.
What does it mean to make the revolution irresistible?
After giving people a bit of time to reflect, angel then reads some of the things that were shared in the chat.
Angel: I want my art to point out the inconsistencies within our society to surprised, enraged, elicit a strong enough reaction that they feel they must do something.
Cheryl: Another person said,
Angel: I love that art can be a way of bridging relationships. Connecting people together, building community.
Cheryl: And someone else said.
Angel: I want people to feel connected to my art, find themselves in it, and have it make them think and realize that they have the ability to do something themselves.
Cheryl: I think what is rather striking in these responses that Angel has read aloud to what it means to make art that makes the revolution irresistible isn’t just aesthetics alone, but rather its ability to help us connect and communicate and find one another to enact feelings and responses in each other. It’s about the way it makes people feel implicated and connected and also capable of acting.
Tony Cade Bambara when she poses that the role of cultural workers is to make the revolution irresistible is posing to us a challenge to tap into our creativity and create art that makes people unable to return comfortably to the world as is, and it makes revolution necessary, desirable not as an abstract idea, but as something people can want and move towards
now I’m going to invite Jenica, who is the cultural organizer at Lavender Phoenix to break down for us why we need cultural work in this political moment. .
Speaker: Jenica: So many of us as artists have really internalized the power of art and are really eager to connect it to the movement.
This section is about answering this question of why is cultural work important.
Cultural work plays a really vital role in organizing and achieving our political goals, right? So if our goal is to advance radical solutions to everyday people, we also have to ask ourselves how are we going to reach those peoples? Ideas of revolution and liberation are majorly inaccessible to the masses, to everyday people.
Families are being separated. Attacks on the working class are getting worse and worse. How are we really propping up these ideas of revolution, especially right in America, where propaganda for the state, for policing, for a corrupt government runs really high.
Therefore our messaging in political organizing works to combat that propaganda. So in a sense we have to make our own propaganda. So let’s look at this term together. Propaganda is art that we make that accurately reflects and makes people aware of the true nature of the conditions of their oppression and inspires them to take control of transforming this condition.
We really want to make art that seeks to make the broader society aware of its implications in the daily violences, facilitated in the name of capitalism, imperialism, and shows that error of maintaining or ignoring the status quo.
So it’s really our goal to arm people with the tools to better struggle against their own points of views, their ways of thinking, because not everyone is already aligned with like revolution already, right? No one’s born an organizer. No one’s born 100% willing to be in this cause.
So, we really focus on the creative and cultural processes, as artists build that revolutionary culture. Propaganda is really a means of liberation. It’s an instrument to help clarify information education and a way to mobilize our people. And not only that, our cultural work can really model to others what it’s like to envision a better world for ourselves, right? Our imagination can be so expansive when it comes to creating art. As organizers and activists when we create communication, zines, et cetera, we’re also asking ourselves, how does this bring us one step closer to revolution? How are we challenging the status quo? So this is exactly what our role as artists is in this movement. It’s to create propaganda that serves two different purposes. One, subvert the enemy and cultivate a culture that constantly challenges the status quo. And also awaken and mobilize the people. How can we, through our art, really uplift the genuine interests of the most exploited of people of the working class, of everyday people who are targets of the state and really empower those whose stories are often kept outside of this master narrative. Because when they are talked about, people in power will often misrepresent marginalized communities. An example of this, Lavender Phoenix, a couple years ago took up this campaign called Justice for Jaxon Sales.
Trigger warning here, hate crime, violence against queer people and death. Um, so Jaxon Sales was a young, queer, Korean adoptee living in the Bay Area who went on a blind like dating app date and was found dead the next morning in a high-rise apartment in San Francisco. Lavender Phoenix worked really closely and is still connected really closely with Jaxon’s parents, Jim and Angie Solas to really fight, and organize for justice for Jaxon and demand investigation into what happened to him and his death, and have answers for his family.
I bring that up, this campaign because when his parents spoke to the chief medical examiner in San Francisco, they had told his family Jaxon died of an accidental overdose he was gay. Like gay people just these kinds of drugs. So that was the narrative that was being presented to us from the state. Like literally, their own words: he’s dead because he’s gay. And our narrative, as we continue to organize and support his family, was to really address the stigma surrounding drug use. Also reiterating the fact that justice was deserved for Jaxon, and that no one should ever have to go through this. We all deserve to be safe, that a better world is possible.
So that’s an example of combating the status quo and then uplifting the genuine interest of our people and his family.
One of our key values at Lavender Phoenix is honoring our histories, because the propaganda against our own people is so intense. I just think about the everyday people, the working class, our immigrant communities and ancestors, other queer and trans people of color that really fought so hard to have their story told. So when we do this work and think about honoring our histories, let’s also ask ourselves what will we do to keep those stories alive?
Cheryl: We’re going to take a quick music break and listen to some music by Namgar, an international ethno music collective that fuses traditional Buryat and Mongolian music with pop, jazz, funk, ambient soundscapes, and art- pop.
We’ll be back in just a moment with more after we listen to “part two” by Namgar.

Cheryl: Welcome back.
You are tuned in to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB B in Berkeley and online at kpfa.org.
That song you just heard was “part two” by Namgar, an incredible four- piece Buryat- Mongolian ensemble that is revitalizing and preserving the Buryat language and culture through music.
For those just tuning in tonight’s episode of APEX Express is all about the role of the artist in social movements.
We’re joined by members of Lavender Phoenix, often referred to as LavNix, which is a grassroots organization in the Bay Area building Trans and queer API Power. You can learn more about their work in our show notes.
We talked about why cultural work is a core part of organizing. We grounded that conversation in the words of Toni Cade Bambara, who said in a 1982 interview, as a cultural worker who belongs to an oppressed people, my job is to make revolution irresistible.
We unpacked what that looks like in practice and lifted up Lavender Phoenix’s Justice for Jaxon Sales campaign as a powerful example of cultural organizing, which really demonstrates how art and narrative work and cultural work are essential to building power
Now Jenica from Levner Phoenix is going to walk us through some powerful examples of cultural organizing that have occurred in social movements across time and across the world.
Speaker: Jenica: Now we’re going to look at some really specific examples of powerful cultural work in our movements.
For our framework today, we’ll start with an international example, then a national one, a local example, and then finally one from LavNix. As we go through them, we ask that you take notes on what makes these examples, impactful forms of cultural work. How does it subvert the status quo? How is it uplifting the genuine interest of the people?
Our international example is actually from the Philippines. Every year, the Corrupt Philippines president delivers a state of the nation address to share the current conditions of the country. However, on a day that the people are meant to hear about the genuine concrete needs of the Filipino masses, they’re met instead with lies and deceit that’s broadcasted and also built upon like years of disinformation and really just feeds the selfish interests of the ruling class and the imperialist powers. In response to this, every year, BAYAN, which is an alliance in the Philippines with overseas chapters here in the US as well. Their purpose is to fight for the national sovereignty and genuine democracy in the Philippines, they hold a Peoples’ State of the Nation Address , or PSONA, to protest and deliver the genuine concerns and demands of the masses. So part of PSONA are effigies. Effigies have been regular fixtures in protest rallies, including PSONA.
So for those of you who don’t know, an effigy is a sculptural representation, often life size of a hated person or group. These makeshift dummies are used for symbolic punishment in political protests, and the figures are often burned. In the case of PSONA, these effigies are set on fire by protestors criticizing government neglect, especially of the poor.
Lisa Ito, who is a progressive artists explained that the effigy is constructed not only as a mockery of the person represented, but also of the larger system that his or her likeness embodies. Ito pointed out that effigies have evolved considerably as a form of popular protest art in the Philippines, used by progressive people’s movements, not only to entertain, but also to agitate, mobilize and capture the sentiments of the people.
This year, organizers created this effigy that they titled ‘ZomBBM,’ ‘Sara-nanggal’ . This is a play on words calling the corrupt president of the Philippines, Bongbong Marcos, or BBM, a zombie. And the vice president Sara Duterte a Manananggal, which is a, Filipino vampire to put it in short, brief words.
Organizers burnt this effigy as a symbol of DK and preservation of the current ruling class.
I love this effigy so much. You can see BBM who’s depicted like his head is taken off and inside of his head is Trump because he’s considered like a puppet president of the Philippines just serving US interests. Awesome. I’m gonna pass it to Angel for our national perspective.
Angel: Our next piece is from the national perspective and it was in response to the AIDS crisis. The global pandemic of HIV AIDS began in 1981 and continues today. AIDS is the late stage of HIV infection, human immunodeficiency virus, and this crisis has been marked largely by government indifference, widespread stigma against gay people, and virtually no federal funding towards research or services for everyday people impacted.
There was a really devastating lack of public attention about the seriousness of HIV. The Ronald Reagan administration treated the crisis as a joke because of its association with gay men, and Reagan didn’t even publicly acknowledge AIDS until 19 85, 4 years into the pandemic. Thousands of HIV positive people across backgrounds and their supporters organize one of the most influential patient advocacy groups in history.
They called themselves the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power or ACT up. They ultimately organize and force the government and the scientific community to fundamentally change the way medical research is conducted. Paving the way for the discovery of a treatment that today keeps alive, an estimated half million HIV positive Americans and millions more worldwide.
Sarah Schulman, a writer and former member of ACT Up, wrote a list of ACT UPS achievements, including changing the CDC C’S definition of aids to include women legalizing needle exchange in New York City and establishing housing services for HIV positive unhoused people. To highlight some cultural work within ACT Up, the AIDS activist artist Collective Grand Fury formed out of ACT Up and CR and created works for the public sphere that drew attention to the medical, moral and public issues related to the AIDS crisis.
Essentially, the government was fine with the mass deaths and had a large role in the active killing off of people who are not just queer, but people who are poor working class and of color. We still see parallels in these roadblocks. Today, Trump is cutting public healthcare ongoing, and in recent memory, the COVID crisis, the political situation of LGBTQ people then and now is not divorced from this class analysis. So in response, we have the AIDS Memorial Quilt, this collective installation memorializes people who died in the US from the AIDS crisis and from government neglect. Each panel is dedicated to a life lost and created by hand by their friends, family, loved ones, and community.
This artwork was originally conceived by Cleve Jones in SF for the 1985 candlelight March, and later it was expanded upon and displayed in Washington DC in 1987. Its enormity demonstrated the sheer number at which queer folk were killed in the hiv aids crisis, as well as created a space in the public for dialogue about the health disparities that harm and silence our community.
Today, it’s returned home to San Francisco and can be accessed through an interactive online archive. 50,000 individual panels and around a hundred thousand names make up the patchwork quilt, which is insane, and it’s one of the largest pieces of grassroots community art in the world.
Moving on to a more local perspective. In the Bay Area, we’re talking about the Black Panther Party. So in October of 1966 in Oakland, California, Huey Newton and Bobby Seale founded the Black Panther Party for self-defense. The Panthers practiced militant self-defense of black communities against the US government and fought to establish socialism through organizing and community-based programs.
The Black Panthers began by organizing arm patrols of black people to monitor the Oakland Police Department and challenge rampant rampant police brutality. At its peak, the party had offices in 68 cities and thousands of members. The party’s 10 point program was a set of demands, guidelines, and values, calling for self-determination, full employment of black people, and the end of exploitation of black workers housing for all black people, and so much more.
The party’s money programs directly addressed their platform as they instituted a free B Breakfast for Children program to address food scarcity Founded community health clinics to address the lack of adequate, adequate healthcare for black people and treat sickle cell anemia, tuberculosis, and HIV aids and more.
The cultural work created by the Black Panther Party included the Black Panther Party newspaper known as the Black Panther. It was a four page newsletter in Oakland, California in 1967. It was the main publication of the party and was soon sold in several large cities across the US as well as having an international readership.
The Black Panther issue number two. The newspaper, distributed information about the party’s activities and expressed through articles, the ideology of the Black Panther Party, focusing on both international revolutions as inspiration and contemporary racial struggles of African Americans across the United States.
Solidarity with other resistance movements was a major draw for readers. The paper’s international section reported on liberation struggles across the world. Under Editor-in-Chief, David Du Bois, the stepson of WEB Du Bois, the section deepened party support for revolutionary efforts in South Africa and Cuba.
Copies of the paper traveled abroad with students and activists and were tra translated into Hebrew and Japanese. It reflected that the idea of resistance to police oppression had spread like wildfire. Judy Juanita, a former editor in Chief Ads, it shows that this pattern of oppression was systemic. End quote.
Paper regularly featured fiery rhetoric called out racist organizations and was unabashed in its disdain for the existing political system. Its first cover story reported on the police killing of Denzel Doel, a 22-year-old black man in Richmond, California. In all caps, the paper stated, brothers and sisters, these racist murders are happening every day.
They could happen to any one of us. And it became well known for its bold cover art, woodcut style images of protestors, armed panthers, and police depicted as bloodied pigs.
Speaker: Jenica: I’m gonna go into the LavNix example of cultural work that we’ve done. For some context, we had mentioned that we are taking up this campaign called Care Not Cops. Just to give some brief background to LavNix, as systems have continued to fail us, lavender Phoenix’s work has always been about the safety of our communities.
We’ve trained people in deescalation crisis intervention set up counseling networks, right? Then in 2022, we had joined the Sales family to fight for justice for Jaxon Sales. And with them we demanded answers for untimely death from the sheriff’s department and the medical examiner.
Something we noticed during that campaign is that every year we watch as people in power vote on another city budget that funds the same institutions that hurt our people and steal money from our communities. Do people know what the budget is for the San Francisco Police Department? Every year, we see that city services and programs are gutted. Meanwhile, this year, SFPD has $849 million, and the sheriff has $345 million.
So, honestly, policing in general in the city is over $1 billion. And they will not experience any cuts. Their bloated budgets will remain largely intact. We’ve really been watching, Mayor Lurie , his first months and like, honestly like first more than half a year, with a lot of concern.
We’ve seen him declare the unlawful fentanyl state of emergency, which he can’t really do, and continue to increase police presence downtown. Ultimately we know that mayor Lurie and our supervisors need to hear from us everyday people who demand care, not cops. So that leads me into our cultural work.
In March of this year, lavender Phoenix had collaborated with youth organizations across the city, youth groups from Chinese Progressive Association, PODER, CYC, to host a bilingual care, not cops, zine making workshop for youth.
Our organizers engaged with the youth with agitating statistics on the egregious SFPD budget, and facilitated a space for them to warm up their brains and hearts to imagine a world without prisons and policing. And to really further envision one that centers on care healing for our people, all through art. What I really learned is that working class San Francisco youth are the ones who really know the city’s fascist conditions the most intimately. It’s clear through their zine contributions that they’ve really internalized these intense forms of policing in the schools on the streets with the unhoused, witnessing ice raids and fearing for their families. The zine was really a collective practice with working class youth where they connected their own personal experiences to the material facts of policing in the city, the budget, and put those experiences to paper.

Cheryl: Hey everyone. Cheryl here. So we’ve heard about Effigies in the Philippines, the AIDS Memorial Quilt, the Black Panther Party’s newspaper, the Black Panther and Lavender Phoenix’s Care Cop zine.
Through these examples, we’ve learned about cultural work and art and narrative work on different scales internationally, nationally, locally and organizationally. With lavender Phoenix. What we’re seeing is across movements across time. Cultural work has always been central to organizing.
We’re going to take another music break, but when we return, I’ll introduce you to our next speaker. Hai, from Asian Refugees United, who will walk us through, their creative practice, which is food, as a form of cultural resistance, and we’ll learn about how food ways can function as acts of survival, resistance, and also decolonization. So stay with us more soon when we return.

Cheryl: And we’re back!!. You’re listening to APEX express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley. 88.1. KFCF in Fresno and [email protected]. That was “Juniper” by Minjoona,
a project led by Korean American musician, Jackson Wright.
huge thanks to Jackson and the whole crew behind that track.
I am here with Hai from Asian Refugees United, who is a member QTViet Cafe Collective. A project under Asian Refugees United. QTViet Viet Cafe is a creative cultural hub that is dedicated to queer and trans viet Liberation through ancestral practices, the arts and intergenerational connection.
This is a clip from what was a much longer conversation.
This episode is all about the role of the artist in social movements and I think Hai brings a very interesting take to the conversation.
Hai (ARU): I think that what is helping me is one, just building the muscle. So when we’re so true to our vision and heart meets mind and body. So much of what QTViet Cafe is, and by extension Asian refugees and like, we’re really using our cultural arts and in many ways, whether that’s movement or poetry or written word or song or dance. And in many ways I’ve had a lot of experience in our food ways, and reclaiming those food ways. That’s a very embodied experience. We’re really trying to restore wholeness and health and healing in our communities, in our bodies and our minds and our families and our communities that have been displaced because of colonization, imperialism, capitalism.
And so how do we restore, how do we have a different relationship and how do we restore? I think that from moving from hurt to healing is life and art. And so we need to take risk and trying to define life through art and whatever means that we can to make meaning and purpose and intention.
I feel like so much of what art is, is trying to make meaning of the hurt in order to bring in more healing in our lives. For so long, I think I’ve been wanting a different relationship to food. For example, because I grew up section eight, food stamps, food bank. My mom and my parents doing the best they could, but also, yeah, grew up with Viet food, grew up with ingredients for my parents making food, mostly my mom that weren’t necessarily all the best. And I think compared to Vietnam, where it’s easier access. And there’s a different kind of system around, needs around food and just easier access, more people are involved around the food system in Vietnam
I think growing up in Turtle Island and seeing my parents struggle not just with food, but just with money and jobs it’s just all connected. And I think that impacted my journey and. My own imbalance around health and I became a byproduct of diabetes and high cholesterol and noticed that in my family. So when I noticed, when I had type two diabetes when I was 18, made the conscious choice to, I knew I needed to have some type of, uh, I need to have a different relationship to my life and food included and just like cut soda, started kind of what I knew at the time, exercising as ways to take care of my body.
And then it’s honestly been now a 20 year journey of having a different relationship to not just food, but health and connection to mind, body, spirit. For me, choosing to have a different relationship in my life, like that is a risk. Choosing to eat something different like that is both a risk and an opportunity. For me that’s like part of movement building like you have to. Be so in tune with my body to notice and the changes that are needed in order to live again. When I noticed, you know, , hearing other Viet folks experiencing diet related stuff and I think knowing what I know also, like politically around what’s happening around our food system, both for the vie community here and also in Vietnam, how do we, how can this regular act of nourishing ourselves both be not just in art, something that should actually just honestly be an everyday need and an everyday symbol of caregiving and caretaking and care that can just be part of our everyday lives. I want a world where, it’s not just one night where we’re tasting the best and eating the best and being nourished, just in one Saturday night, but that it’s just happening all the time because we’re in right relationship with ourselves and each other and the earth that everything is beauty and we don’t have to take so many risks because things are already in its natural divine.
I think it takes being very conscious of our circumstances and our surroundings and our relationships with each other for that to happen. I remember reading in my early twenties, reading the role of, bring Coke basically to Vietnam during the war. I was always fascinated like, why are, why is Coke like on Viet altars all the time? And I always see them in different places. Whenever I would go back to Vietnam, I remember when I was seven and 12. Going to a family party and the classic shiny vinyl plastic, floral like sheet on a round table and the stools, and then these beautiful platters of food. But I’m always like, why are we drinking soda or coke and whatever else? My dad and the men and then my family, like drinking beer. And I was like, why?
I’ve had periods in my life when I’ve gotten sick, physically and mentally sick. Those moments open up doors to take the risk and then also the opportunity to try different truth or different path. When I was 23 and I had just like crazy eczema and psoriasis and went back home to my parents for a while and I just started to learn about nourishing traditions, movement. I was Very critical of the us traditional nutrition ideas of what good nutrition is and very adamantly like opposing the food pyramid. And then in that kind of research, I was one thinking well, they’re talking about the science of broths and like soups and talking about hard boiling and straining the broth and getting the gunk on the top. And I’m like, wait, my mom did that. And I was starting to connect what has my mom known culturally that now like science is catching up, you know? And then I started just reading, you know, like I think that my mom didn’t know the sign mom.
I was like, asked my mom like, did you know about this? And she’s like, I mean, I just, this is, is like what ba ngoai said, you know? And so I’m like, okay, so culturally this, this is happening scientifically. This is what’s being shared. And then I started reading about the politics of US-centric upheaval of monocultural agriculture essentially. When the US started to do the industrial Revolution and started to basically grow wheat and soy and just basically make sugar to feed lots of cows and create sugar to be put in products like Coke was one of them. And, and then, yeah, that was basically a way for the US government to make money from Vietnam to bring that over, to Vietnam. And that was introduced to our culture. It’s just another wave of imperialism and colonization.
And sadly, we know what, overprocessed, like refined sugars can do to our health. And sadly, I can’t help but make the connections with what happened. In many ways, food and sugar are introduced through these systems of colonization and imperialism are so far removed from what we ate pre colonization. And so, so much of my journey around food has been, you know, it’s not even art, it’s just like trying to understand, how do we survive and we thrive even before so many. And you know, in some ways it is art. ’cause I making 40 pounds of cha ga for event, , the fish cake, like, that’s something that, that our people have been doing for a long time and hand making all that. And people love the dish and I’m really glad that people enjoyed it and mm, it’s like, oh yeah, it’s art. But it’s what people have been doing to survive and thrive for long, for so long, you know?
, We have the right to be able to practice our traditional food ways and we have the right for food sovereignty and food justice. And we have the right to, by extension, like have clean waters and hospitable places to live and for our animal kin to live and for our plant kin to be able to thrive.
bun cha ga, I think like it’s an artful hopeful symbol of what is seasonal and relevant and culturally symbolic of our time. I think that, yes, the imminent, violent, traumatic war that are happening between people, in Vietnam and Palestine and Sudan. Honestly, like here in America. That is important. And I think we need to show, honestly, not just to a direct violence, but also very indirect violence on our bodies through the food that we’re eating. Our land and waters are living through indirect violence with just like everyday pollutants and top soil being removed and industrialization. And so I think I’m just very cognizant of the kind of everyday art ways, life ways, ways of being that I think that are important to be aware of and both practice as resistance against the forces that are trying to strip away our livelihood every day.
Cheryl: We just heard from Hai of Asian refugees United who shared about how food ways function as an embodied form of cultural work that is rooted in memory and also survival and healing. Hai talked about food as a practice and art that is lived in the body and is also shaped by displacement and colonization and capitalism and imperialism. I shared that through their journey with QTV at Cafe and Asian Refugees United. High was able to reflect on reclaiming traditional food ways as a way to restore health and wholeness and relationship to our bodies and to our families, to our communities, and to the earth.
High. Also, traced out illness and imbalance as deeply connected to political systems that have disrupted ancestral knowledge and instead introduced extractive food systems and normalized everyday forms of soft violence through what we consume and the impact it has on our land. And I think the most important thing I got from our conversation was that high reminded us that nourishing ourselves can be both an act of care, an art form, and an act of resistance. And what we call art is often what people have always done to survive and thrive Food. For them is a practice of memory, and it’s also a refusal of erasure and also a very radical vision of food sovereignty and healing and collective life outside of colonial violence and harm. As we close out tonight’s episode, I want to return to the question that has guided us from the beginning, which is, what is the role of the artist in social movements?
What we’ve heard tonight from Tony Cade Bambara call to make revolution irresistible to lavender Phoenix’s cultural organizing here, internationally to Hai, reflections on food ways, and nourishing ourselves as resistance.
It is Really clear to me. Art is not separate from struggle.
It is how people make sense of systems of violence and carry memory and also practice healing and reimagining new worlds in the middle of ongoing violence. Cultural work helps our movements. Endure and gives us language when words fail, or ritual when grief is heavy, and practices that connect us, that reconnect us to our bodies and our histories and to each other.
So whether that’s through zines, or songs or murals, newspapers, or shared meals, art is a way of liberation again and again. I wanna thank all of our speakers today, Jenica,
Angel.
From Lavender Phoenix. Hi, from QTV Cafe, Asian Refugees United,
And I also wanna thank you, our listeners for staying with us. You’ve been listening to Apex Express on KPFA. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and keep imagining the world that we’re trying to build.
That’s important stuff.
Cheryl Truong (she/they): Apex express is produced by Miko Lee, Paige Chung, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar. Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Kiki Rivera, Swati Rayasam, Nate Tan, Hien Nguyen, Nikki Chan, and Cheryl Truong
Cheryl Truong: Tonight’s show was produced by me, cheryl. Thanks to the team at KPFA for all of their support. And thank you for listening!
The post APEX Express – January 1, 2026 – The Role of the Artist in Social Movements appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – 12.25.25 – A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter
25 joulu 2025· KPFA - APEX Express
APEX Express is a weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
APEX Express and Lavender Phoenix are both members of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality (AACRE). AACRE focuses on long-term movement building, capacity infrastructure, and leadership support for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders committed to social justice.
To learn more about Lavender Phoenix, please visit their website. You can also listen to a previous APEX Express episode honoring Lavender Phoenix’s name change.

Miata Tan: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome. You are tuning in to APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans. I am your host, Miata Tan. And before we get started, I wanted to let you know that this show was recorded on December 16th, 2025. Things may have changed by the time you hear this.
I also wanted to take a moment to acknowledge [00:01:00] some recent gun violence tragedies, not only in the US but globally. As you might be able to tell from my accent, I’m Australian.
Over the weekend, 15 people were killed in Sydney, on Bondi Beach in a mass shooting. The likes not seen in 30 years. Australia’s gun control laws are different to the US in a number of ways that I won’t get into right now, but this massacre is one of the few we’ve seen since the nineties.
In the US we’ve also seen the shooting at Brown University where two of their students were killed by a still active shooter.
It’s strange. Guns and weapons are horrific. Tools used to take the life of people every day globally. An everyday occurrence now brings a degree of complacency. Although you personally might not have been [00:02:00] impacted by these recent shootings, the wars going on abroad, or government attacks on immigrant communities, and ICE deportation cases taking place here in America, the impact of horrific acts of violence have ripple effects that spread across this country and world.
Careless violence motivated by hate for another be that racially charged conflicting ideologies. It’s all awful. And I, and I guess I wanted to acknowledge that here at the top of this episode.
Profound hatred and judgment toward others is not only incredibly sad, it’s self-defeating. And I don’t mean to sound all preachy and I understand it’s December 25th and perhaps you’re sick of the sound of my voice and you’re about to change the station.
In all honesty, I, I would’ve by [00:03:00] now. It’s easy to tune out suffering. It’s easy to tune out violence, but if you’re still listening. Today, as many of us are gathering for the holiday ,season, whether or not you believe in a higher power or acknowledge that big guy in a red suit that brings kids presents, I invite you to sit with some of these thoughts. To acknowledge and reflect on the violence that exists around us, the hatred and dehumanization. We as humans are capable of feeling toward one another. Let’s just sit here for a moment with that uncomfortability.
Now. Think, what can I do today to make another’s life [00:04:00] just that tiny bit brighter?
Okay. Now to reintroduce myself and this show, my name is Miata Tan and this is APEX Express. A show that honors Asian American communities far and wide, uplifting the voices of artists, activists, organizers, and more. We have two incredible guests today from Lavender Phoenix, a Bay Area based organization supporting queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islander youth.
I really enjoyed my conversation with these two, and I’m sure you will as well.
And a quick note throughout both of these conversations, you’ll hear us referring to the organization as both Lavender Phoenix and it’s very cute nickname Lav Nix. Without further ado, here’s [00:05:00] my conversation with Yuan Wang, the outgoing director at Lavender Phoenix.

Miata Tan: Yuan, thank you so much for joining us today. Would you be able to share a little bit about yourself with our listeners to get started?
Yuan Wang: Yeah. I’m so excited to be here. My name is Yuan. My pronouns are she, and they, and I’m actually the outgoing executive director of Lavender Phoenix. You’re catching me on my second to last week in this role after about four years as the executive director, and more years on our staff team as an organizer and also as a part of our youth summer organizer program.
So this is a really exciting and special time and I’m really excited to reflect about it with you.
Miata Tan: Yay. I’m so excited. I’d love for you to give us an overview of Lavender Phoenix and the work that y’all do, what communities you support,
Yuan Wang: Lavender Phoenix was founded about 21 years ago, and we are based in the Bay [00:06:00] Area. We’re a grassroots organization that builds the power of transgender non-binary and queer Asian and Pacific Islander communities right here in the Bay. Right now our work focuses on three major Areas.
The first is around fighting for true community safety. There are so, so many ways that queer, trans, and more broadly, uh, working class communities in the San Francisco Bay Area. Are needing ways to keep ourselves and each other safe, that don’t rely on things like policing, that don’t rely on things like incarceration that are actually taking people out of our communities and making us less safe.
The second big pillar of our work is around healing justice. We know that a lot of folks in our community. Struggle with violence, struggle with trauma, struggle with isolation, and that a lot of the systems that exist aren’t actually really designed for queer and trans API people, to thrive and feel connected.
And [00:07:00] so, we’ve been leading programs and campaigns around healing justice. And the last thing is we’re trying to build a really principled, high integrity leaderful movement. So we do a ton of base building work, which just means that, everyday queer and trans API people in our community can come to Lavender Phoenix, who want to be involved in organizing and political work.
And we train folks to become organizers.
Miata Tan: And you yourself came into Lavender Phoenix through one of those programs, is that right?
Yuan Wang: Yeah. Um, that is so true. I came into Lavender Phoenix about seven or eight years ago through the Summer organizer program, which is kind of our flagship youth organizing fellowship.
And I was super lucky to be a part of that.
Miata Tan: How has that felt coming into Lavender Phoenix? Like as a participant of one of those programs? Yeah. And now, uh, over the past few years, being able to [00:08:00] lead the organization?
Yuan Wang: Yeah. It feels like the most incredible gift. I share this a lot, but you know, when I had come into Lavender Phoenix through the summer organizer program, I had already had some experience, doing organizing work, you know, doing door knocking, working on campaigns.
but I really wanted to be in a space where I felt like I could be all of myself, and that included being trans, you know, that included. Being in a really vulnerable part of my gender transition journey and wanting to feel like I was around people all the time who maybe were in a similar journey or could understand that in a really intimate way.
I really found that at Lavender Phoenix. It was pretty unbelievable, to be honest. I remember, uh, the first day that I walked in. There were members and volunteers leading a two hour long political education that was just about the histories of trans and non-binary people in different Asian and Pacific Islander communities.
So just being in a room [00:09:00] full of people who shared my identities and where, where we were prioritizing these histories was really, really exciting. I think for the years it’s just been so amazing to see Lavender Phoenix grow. The time when I joined, we had a totally different name. It was API equality, Northern California, or we called ourselves a pink and we were really focused on projects like the Dragon Fruit Project, which was a, a series of more than a hundred oral histories that we did with elders and other members members of our community.
Things like the Trans Justice Initiative, which were our first efforts at really building a community that was trans centered and that was, was building trans leaders. And now those things are so deeply integrated into our work that they’ve allowed us to be focused on some more, I think what we call like issue based work, and that that is that community safety, healing justice work.
That I mentioned earlier. So, it’s just been amazing to witness multiple generations of the organization that has shaped [00:10:00] me so much as a person.
Miata Tan: That’s really nice. Seven, eight years that, that whole
Yuan Wang: Yeah, I joined in 2018 in June, so you can maybe do, I think that’s about seven and a half years. Yeah.
I’m bad at math though.
Miata Tan: Me too. So you’ve been executive director since late 2021 then? This, these few years since then we’ve seen a lot of shifts and changes in our I guess global political culture and the way conversations around racial solidarity issues mm-hmm.
as you’ve navigated being executive director, what, what has changed in your approach maybe from 2021 till this year? 2025?
Yuan Wang: Wow, that’s such an interesting question. You’re so right to say that. I think for anyone who’s listening, I, I imagine this resonates that the last four years have [00:11:00] been. Really a period of extraordinary violence and brutality and grief in our world.
And that’s definitely true for a lot of folks in Lavender Phoenix. You mentioned that we’ve been living through, you know, continued pandemic that our government is providing so little support and recognition for. We’ve seen multiple uprisings, uh, in the movement for black lives to defend, you know, and, and bring dignity to the lives of people who were killed and are police.
And obviously we’re still facing this immense genocide in Gaza and Palestine bombings that continue. So I think if there’s, if there’s anything that I could say to your question about how my approach has changed. I would say that we as a whole, as an organization have had to continue to grow stronger and stronger in balancing our long-term vision.
Intensifying urgent needs of right now and [00:12:00] balancing doing the work that it takes to defend our people and try to change institutions with the incredible and at times overwhelming grief of living in this moment. Yeah, you know, in this past year, um. Have been members of our community and, and our larger community who have passed away.
Uh, I’m sure there are some listeners who know, Alice Wong, Patty by architects of the disability justice movement that Lavender Phoenix has learned so much from who have passed away. And we’ve had to balance, you know. Like one week there’s threats that the National Guard and that ICE will be deployed and even higher numbers to San Francisco and, and across the Bay Area.
And oh my gosh, so many of us are sitting with an incredible personal grief that we’re trying to hold too. So, I think that’s been one of the biggest challenges of the last few years is, is finding that balance. Yeah. I can say that some of the things that I feel proudest of are, [00:13:00] you know, just as an example, in our healing justice work, over the past four years, our members have been architecting a, a trans, API peer counseling program.
And, through that program they’ve been able to provide, first of all, train up. So many trans API, people as skilled, as attentive, as loving peer counselors who are then able to provide that. Free, uh, accessible peer mental health support to other people who need it. So I think that’s just one example.
Something that gives me a lot of hope is seeing the way that our members are still finding ways to defend and love and support each other even in a time of really immense grief.
Miata Tan: That’s really beautiful and it’s important that you are listening to your community members at this time. How do you, this is kind of specific, but how do you all gather together?
Yeah,
Yuan Wang: yeah. You know, I feel really lucky ’cause I think for the last 10 years we, Lavender Phoenix as a whole, even before I was a part of it, has been [00:14:00] building towards a model of really collective governance. Um, and, and I don’t wanna make it sound like it.
You know, it’s perfect. It’s very challenging. It’s very hard. But I think like our comrades at Movement generation often say, if we’re not prepared to govern, then we’re not prepared to win. And we try to take that, that practice really seriously here. So, you know, I think that, that getting together. That making decisions with each other, that making sure that members and staff are both included.
That happens at like a really high strategic level. You know, the three pillars of our theory of change that I mentioned earlier, those were all set through a year of strategy retreats between our staff, but also a. 10 to 15 of our most experienced and most involved members who are at that decision making.
The same comes for our name, uh, Lavender Phoenix. You know, it was, it was really our core committee, our, our member leaders who helped decide on that name. And then we invited some of our elders to speak about what it meant for them, for us to choose Lavender Phoenix, because it was an homage to the work [00:15:00] so many of our elders did in the eighties and nineties.
It also looks like the day-to-day, because a lot of our work happens through specific committees, whether it’s our community safety committee or healing justice committee. Um, and those are all committees where there’s one staff person, but it’s really a room of 5, 10, 15 members who are leading community safety trainings.
The peer counseling program, training new members through our rise up onboarding, um, and setting new goals, new strategic targets every single year. So, it’s always in progress. We’re in fact right now working on some challenges and getting better at it, but we’re really trying to practice what governing and self-determination together looks like right in our own organization.
Miata Tan: And a lot of these people are volunteers too.
Yuan Wang: yeah, so when I joined the organization there were two staff, two mighty staff people at the time. We’ve grown to nine full-time staff people, but most of our organization is volunteers. [00:16:00] Yeah. And we call those folks members, you know, committed volunteers who are participants in one of our committees or projects.
Um, and I believe right now there’s about 80 members in Lavender Phoenix.
Miata Tan: Wow. It’s wonderful to hear so much growth has happened in, um, this period that you’ve been with Lavender Phoenix. The idea of empowering youth, I think is core to a lot of Lavender Phoenix’s work. What has that looked like specifically in the last few years, especially this year?
Yuan Wang: Yeah, the
Miata Tan: challenges.
Yuan Wang: That’s a great question. I think, um, you know, one of those ways is, is really specifically targeted towards young people, right? It’s the summer organizer program, which I went through many years ago, and our previous executive director was also an alumnus of the summer organizer program, but that’s, you know, an eight to 10 week fellowship.
It’s paid, it’s designed specifically for young trans and queer API people who are working class, who grew up in the [00:17:00] Bay to organize with us and, and really. Hopefully be empowered with tools that they’ll use for the next decade or for the rest of their life. But I’ll also say, you know, you mentioned that Lavender Phoenix has grown so much in the last few years, and that is such a credit to folks who were here 10 years ago, even 15 years ago, you know, because, the intergenerational parts of our work started years before I was involved. You know, I mentioned earlier the Dragon Fruit Project where we were able to connect so, so many elders in our community with a lot of younger folks in our community who were craving relationships and conversations and like, what happened in the eighties?
What happened in the nineties, what did it feel like? Why are you still organizing? Why does this matter to you? And we’re actually able to have those conversations with folks in, in our community who. Have lived and fought and organized for decades already. So I think that was like one early way we started to establish that like intergenerational in our work.[00:18:00]
And a lot of those folks have stayed on as volunteers, as supporters, some as members, and as donors or advisors. So I feel really lucky that we’re still benefiting in terms of building the leadership of young people, but also intergenerational reality overall because of work that folks did 10 years ago.
Miata Tan: That’s really important. Having those, those ties that go back. Queer history is so rich, especially in the, in the Bay Area. And there’s a lot to honor.
With the intersection between queer and immigrant histories here, I wonder if you have anything that comes to mind.
Yuan Wang: I think that queer and immigrant histories intersect in the lives of so many of our, our members and, and the people who are inspiration too. You know, I’m not sure that. I think a lot of listeners may not know that Lavender Phoenix is as a name. It’s an homage to Lavender, Godzilla, [00:19:00] and Phoenix Rising, which were two of the first publications.
They were newsletters launched back in the eighties by groups of. Uh, trans and queer API, folks who are now elders and who were looking around, you know, learning from the Black Power movement, learning from solidarity movements in the Bay Area, and saying we really need to create spaces where.
Trans and queer Asian Pacific Islanders can talk about our journeys of migration, our family’s journeys as refugees, our experiences with war, and then also about love and joy and finding friendship and putting out advertisements so that people could get together for potlucks. So yeah, I think, um, there’s so much about the intersection of immigrant and queer and trans journeys that have been.
Just even at the root of how we name ourselves and how we think of ourselves as an or as an organization today.
Miata Tan: I think today, more than ever all of these [00:20:00] communities feel a little more than a little under threat,
Yuan Wang: we could say so much about that. I think one thing that we’re really paying attention to is, uh, we’re seeing in different communities across the country, the ways in which the right wing is. Uh, kind of wielding the idea of trans people, uh,
the perceived threat that trans people pose.
As a wedge issue to try to build more more power, more influence, more connections in immigrant communities and in the process like really invisiblizing or really amplifying the harm that immigrant, trans and queer. People experience every single day. So I think something that we’re thinking about on the horizon, you know, whether it’s, uh, partnering with organizations in California or in the Bay Area or across the country who are doing that really critical base building work, power building work in immigrant communities is trying to ask, you know.
How do we actually proactively as [00:21:00] progressives, as people on the left, how do we proactively have conversations with immigrant communities about trans and queer issues, about the, uh, incredibly overlapping needs that trans and queer people in all people who are marginalized right now have in these political conditions?
Um, how can we be proactive about those combinations and making those connections so that, we can kind of inoculate folks against the way that the right wing is targeting trans people, is fear mongering about trans people and trying to make inroads in immigrant communities. Yeah. That’s one thing on our radar for the future.
Miata Tan: That’s so important. Kind of, breaking down those, those stereotypes
Yuan Wang: totally breaking down stereotypes, breaking down misinformation. And yeah, it reminds me of a few years ago Lavender Phoenix held a few conversations with a partner organization of ours where there were some younger folks from our organization who are talking to some older immigrant members of that organization and we’re just [00:22:00] connecting about, the sacred importance of, parenting trans and queer kids right now of, you know, and, and just having conversations that actually humanize all of us rather than buying into narratives and stories that that dehumanize and, and that flatten us. Yeah. Um, so that we can defend ourselves from the way that the right wing is trying to hurt immigrant communities and trans and queer communities.
Miata Tan: the youth that you work directly with each week. Is there anything as you reflect back on your, your time with Laxs that really stand out, things that folks have said or led conversations in?
Yuan Wang: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, I, I could, I could celebrate things that I’ve witnessed every single year.
You know, we the young people in the summer organizer program experience so, so much in, in many ways it’s kind of like the faucets, like all the way on, you know, like there’s, [00:23:00] they’re learning so much about skills and values and projects and, you know, just as some examples this last summer, we had a team of summer organizers who helped lead an event that was about COVID safety and disability justice, where people actually got together to build DIY air filters that could hopefully, you know, make them feel safer in their own homes.
And, um, in previous years we’ve had summer organizers work on the peer counseling program. There’s so much that folks have done. I think what I actually hear year after year is oftentimes the thing that sticks out the most, it isn’t necessarily just the project, it isn’t necessarily like the hard skill training.
It’s people saying every single week during our team check-ins, someone shared an affirmation with me. I felt more seen. It’s people saying, you know, I didn’t expect that we were gonna do a three hour training. That was just about why it’s so important [00:24:00] to ask for help and why that can be so, so difficult for, um, for queer and trans young folks.
It’s folks saying, you know, even speaking for myself actually. I remember being a summer organizer and one of, uh, my close friends now one of our elders, Vince spoke on a panel for us and, talked about what it was like to be young during the height of the hiv aids crisis, you know, when the government was neglecting to care for folks and so many members of our community were dying without care, were, were passing away without support.
And all of the lessons that Vince took from that time holds now, decades later that still make him feel more hopeful, more committed, more full as a person. Um, that meant so much to me to hear when I was 21 and, still feeling really scared and really lonely, about the future. So I think it’s those, I, I wouldn’t even call them like softer skills, but the [00:25:00] incredible st.
Sturdiness and resilience that building long-term relationships creates that seeing people who show you a potential path, if it’s been hard to imagine the future. And that building the skills that make relationships more resilient. I feel like it’s those things that always stand out the most to a lot of our young people.
And then to me, I see them grow in it and be challenged by those things every single year. I feel really good. ’cause I know that at the end of the summer organizer program, there’s a group of young, queer and trans API rising leaders who are gonna bring that level of rigorous kindness, attentive attentiveness to emotions, um, of vulnerability that creates more honesty and interdependence.
They’re gonna be taking that to an another organization, to another environment, to another year in our movement. That makes me feel really happy and hopeful.
Miata Tan: Yes. Community.
Yuan Wang: Yeah.
Miata Tan: . [00:26:00] Looking towards that bright future that you, you shared just now Tina Shelf is coming on as the executive director.
What are your hopes for 2026
Yuan Wang: yeah. You know, I’m, I’m so excited that we’re welcoming Tina and we’re really lucky because Tina joined us in August of this year. So we’ve had a good, like five months to overlap with each other and to really, um, for all of us, not just me, but our staff, our members, to really welcome and support Tina in onboarding to the role.
I feel incredibly excited for Lavender Phoenix’s future. I think that in this next year, on one hand, our Care Knock Cops campaign, which has been a huge focus of the organization where uh, we’ve been rallying other organizations and people across San Francisco to fight to direct funding from policing to.
To protect funding that’s being threatened every year for housing, for healthcare, for human services that people really [00:27:00] need. I think we’re gonna see that campaign grow and there are so many members and staff who are rigorously working on that every single day. And on the other hand, I think that this is a time for Lavender Phoenix to really sturdy itself.
We are in we’re approaching, the next stage of an authoritarian era that we’ve been getting ready for many years and is in other ways as so many folks are saying new and unprecedented. So I think, um, a lot of our work in this next year is actually making sure that our members’ relationships to each other are stronger, making sure that, responsibility, is shared in, in, in greater ways that encourage more and more leadership and growth throughout our membership so that we are more resilient and less res reliant on smaller and smaller groups of people. I think you’re gonna see our program and campaign work continue to be impactful. And I’m really hopeful that when we talk again, maybe in two years, three years, five years, we’re gonna be [00:28:00] looking at an organization that’s even more resilient and even more connected internally.
Miata Tan: It’s really important that y’all are thinking so long term, I guess, and have been preparing for this moment in many ways.
On a personal note, as you are coming to an end as executive director, what’s what’s next for you? I’d love to know.
Yuan Wang: Yeah, that’s such a sweet question. I’m going to, I’m gonna rest for a little bit. Yeah. I haven’t taken a sustained break from organizing since I was 18 or so. So it’s been a while and I’m really looking forward to some rest and reflection.
I think from there. I’m gonna figure out, what makes sense for me in terms of being involved with movement and I’m, I’m certain that one of those things will be staying involved. Lavender Phoenix as a member. Really excited to keep supporting our campaign work. Really excited to keep supporting the organization as a whole just from a role that I’ve never had as a volunteer member.
So, I’m just psyched for that and I can’t [00:29:00] wait to be a part of Lavender Phoenix’s future in this different way.
Miata Tan: Have fun. You’ll be like on the other side almost. Yeah,
Yuan Wang: totally. Totally. And, and getting to see and support our incredible staff team just in a different way.
Miata Tan: One final question As you are sort of moving into this next stage, and this idea of community and base building being so incredibly important to your work and time with Lavender Phoenix, is there anything you’d like to say, I guess for someone who might be considering. Joining in some way or Yeah. Where they could get involved, but they’re not, not quite sure.
Yuan Wang: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think that if you are a queer and trans, API person who is looking for community, um, looking to channel what you care about into action, looking to be with other people who care about you Lavender Phoenix is here. [00:30:00] And I think that there is no more critical time. Than the one we’re in to get activated and to try to organize.
‘Cause our world really needs us right now. The world needs all of us and it also really needs the wisdom, the experience, and the love of queer and trans people. So, I will be rejoining our membership at some point and I’d really like to meet you and I hope that we get to, to grow in this work and to, um, to fight for our freedom together.
Miata Tan: Thank you so much. We, this was a really lovely conversation.
Yuan Wang: Yeah, thank you so much And also welcome Tina. Good luck.
[00:31:00] [00:32:00] [00:33:00]
Miata Tan: That was the Love by Jason Chu, featuring Fuzzy.
If you’re just joining us, you are tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and [00:34:00] [email protected]. I am your host, Miata Tan, and today we are joined by the Lavender Phoenix team at a transitional point in the organization’s story.
Our next guest is Tina Shauf-Bajar, the incoming director of this local organization, supporting queer and trans Asian and Pacific Islander Youth.
As a reminder throughout this conversation, you’ll hear us referring to the org as both Lavender, Phoenix and Lani.

Miata Tan: Hi Tina.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Hi Miata.
Miata Tan: How you going today?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: I’m doing well, thank you. How are you?
Miata Tan: Yeah, not so bad. Just excited to speak with you. tell me more about yourself what’s bringing you into Lavender Phoenix.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Sure, sure. Well I am the incoming executive director of Lavender Phoenix. Prior to this, I was working at the California Domestic Workers Coalition [00:35:00] and had also worked at the Filipino Community Center and, um, have done some grassroots organizing, building, working class power, um, over the last 20 years, of my time in the Bay Area.
And I’ve been alongside Lavender Phoenix as an organization that I’ve admired for a long time. Um, and now at the beginning of this year, I was I had the opportunity to apply for this executive director position and talked with un, um, had a series of conversations with UN about, um, what this role looks like and I got really excited about being a part of this organization.
Miata Tan: That’s super cool. So you, you, you weren’t quite in the space with Lavender Phoenix, but moving alongside them through your work, like what were what were the organizations that you were part of when you were, were working in tandem, I guess.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well the organization that I feel like is most, most closely, relates with Lavender. Phoenix is, [00:36:00] um, Gabriela, which is a Filipino organization. It’s a Filipino organization that’s a part of a national democratic movement of the Philippines. And we advance national democracy in the Philippines. And, liberation for our people and our homeland.
Sovereignty for our homeland. And Gabriela here in the US does organizing with other multi-sectoral organizations, including like migrant organizations, like Ante and youth organizations like Naan and we organize in diaspora. And the reason for that is because many of our families actually leave the Philippines due to, um, corrupt government governance, um, also like foreign domination and exploitation and plunder of our resources.
And so many of us actually have to leave our countries to, to survive. And so we’re still very connected. Gabriela is still very connected to, [00:37:00] um, the movement in the Philippines. And yeah, so we’re advancing liberation for our people and have been alongside Lavender Phoenix for many years. And here we are.
Miata Tan: That’s beautiful. I love hearing about, all of these partnerships and, and colLavoration works that happen in the San Francisco Bay Area and, and beyond as well. it sounds like you’re speaking from a personal place when you talk about, um, a lot of these immigrant communities. Could you speak more to your family background and what brings you into this?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: The, the fight for immigrant justice? So I was born in the Philippines and um, I spent my childhood and adolescent since the, in the South Bay of LA and then came here to the Bay Area in the year 2000. Flashing back to when my parents immigrated here, my dad’s family first came to the US um, by way of the Bay Area in the late sixties and [00:38:00] early seventies.
My dad actually was a few years after he had arrived, was uh, drafted into the military so that they can send him to Vietnam, but instead of going to Vietnam, he took the test to go into the Air Force and traveled everywhere in the Air Force and ended up in the Philippines and met my, met my mom there.
And so. That became like they got married and they had me, I was born in the Philippines. I have a younger sibling. And, um, and I think, um, growing up in, in a working class immigrant neighborhood black and brown neighborhood, um, it was always important to me to like find solidarity between.
Between communities. I actually grew up in a neighborhood that didn’t have a lot of Filipinos in it, but I, I felt that solidarity knowing that we were an immigrant family, immigrant, working class family. And when I was in [00:39:00] college, when I went to college up in, in Berkeley, um, that was the time when the war on Iraq was waged by the US.
I got really I got really curious and interested in understanding why war happens and during that time I, I feel like I, I studied a lot in like ethnic studies classes, Asian American studies classes and also, got involved in like off campus organizing and um, during that time it was with the Filipinos for Global Justice Not War Coalition.
I would mobilize in the streets, in the anti-war movement during that time. Um, and from there I met a lot of the folks in the national democratic movement of the Philippines and eventually joined an organization which is now known as Gabriela. And so. That was my first political home that allowed me to understand my family’s experience as [00:40:00] immigrants and why it’s important to, to advance our rights and defend our, defend our people.
And also with what’s happening now with the escalated violence on our communities it. It’s our duty to help people understand that immigrants are not criminals and our people work really hard to, to provide for our families and that it’s our human right to be able to work and live in dignity, uh, just like anyone else.
Miata Tan: You are speaking to something really powerful there. The different communities that you’ve been involved with, within the Filipino diaspora, but who are some other immigrant folks that you feel like have really helped shape your political awakening and, and coming into this space, and also how that leads into your work with Lav Nix today?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: When I was working at the Filipino [00:41:00] community center that gave me a, gave me a chance to learn to work with other organizations that were also advancing, like workers’ rights and immigrant rights.
Many centers in San Francisco that, um, work with immigrant workers who. Wouldn’t typically like fall into the category of union unionized workers. They were like workers who are work in the domestic work industry who are caregivers, house cleaners and also we worked with organizations that also have organized restaurant workers, hotel workers.
In like non-union, in a non-union setting. And so to me I in integrating in community like that, it helped me really understand that there were many workers who were experiencing exploitation at really high levels. And that reregulate like regulation of, um, Lavor laws and things like that, it’s like really.
[00:42:00] Unregulated industries that really set up immigrant workers in, in really poor working conditions. Sometimes abusive conditions and also experiencing wage theft. And for me, that really moved me and in my work with Gabriela and the community and the Filipino Community Center, we were able to work with, um.
Teachers who actually were trafficked from the Philippines. These teachers actually, they did everything right to try to get to the, the US to get teaching jobs. And then they ended up really paying exorbitant amount of, of money to like just get processed and make it to the us.
To only find themselves in no teaching jobs and then also working domestic work jobs just to like survive. And so during that time, it really like raised my consciousness to understand that there was something bigger that wa that was happening. The, [00:43:00] the export of our people and exploitation of our people was happening, not just at a small scale, but I learned over time that.
Thousands of Filipinos actually leave the Philippines every day just to find work and send money back to their families. And to me that just was like throughout my time being an activist and organizer it was important to me to like continue to, to like advance poor, working class power. And that I see that as a through line between many communities.
And I know that like with my work in Lav Nix that the folks who experience it the most and who are most impacted by right-wing attacks and authoritarianism are people who are at the fringes. And born working class trans and queer people. Within our [00:44:00] sector. So yeah. Being rooted in this, in this principle of advancing foreign working class power is really core to my to my values in any work that I do.
Miata Tan: What are some other key issue Areas you see that are facing this community and especially queer folks within Asian American communities today?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: The administration that we’re under right now works really hard to drive wedges between. All of us and, um, sewing division is one of the t tactics to continue to hoard power. And with Lavender Phoenix being a trans and queer API organization that’s building power, it’s important for us to understand that solidarity is a thing that that’s gonna strengthen us.
That that trans and queer folks are used as wedges in, in [00:45:00] conservative thinking. I’m not saying that like it’s just conservatives, but there’s conservative thinking in many of our cultures to think that trans and queer folks are not, are not human, and that we deserve less and we don’t deserve to be recognized as.
As fully human and deserve to live dignified lives in our full selves. I also know that locally in San Francisco, the API community is used as a wedge to be pitted against other communities. Let’s say the black commun the black community. And, um, it’s important for us as an organization to recognize that that we, we can position ourselves to like wield more solidarity and be in solidarity with, with communities that are experiencing the impacts of a system that continues to exploit our people and [00:46:00] continues to view our people as not fully deserving.
Not fully human and that our people deserve to be detained, abducted, and deported. That our people deserve to not be taken care of and resourced and not have our basic needs like housing and food and healthcare and it impacts all of us. And so, I see our responsibility as Lavender Phoenix, and, and in the other organizing spaces that I’m a part of that it, it is our responsibility to expose that we are not each other’s enemies.
Hmm. And that we are stronger in fighting for our needs and our dignity together.
Miata Tan: Community. [00:47:00] Community and strength. I’m thinking about what you said in terms of this, the API solidarity alongside queer folks, alongside black and brown folks. Do you have a, perhaps like a nice memory of that, that coming together?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: So one of the most consistent, things that I would go to, that’s, that Lavender Phoenix would, would lead year after year in the last 10 years is Trans March. And my partner and I always make sure that we mobilize out there and be with Laxs. And it’s important to us to be out there.
in more recent trans marches. Just with a lot of the escalation of violence in Gaza and ongoing genocide and also just the escalated attacks on on immigrants and increased right and increased ice raids. [00:48:00] And and also the, we can’t forget the police, the Police killings of black people. And I feel like at Trans March with Lavender Phoenix, it’s also a way for us to come together and you know, put those messages out there and show that we are standing with all these different communities that are fighting, repression, And it’s always so joyful at Trans March too.
We’re like chanting and we’re holding up our signs. We’re also out there with or you know, people, individuals, and organizations that might not be politically aligned with us, but that’s also a chance for us to be in community and, and show demonstrate this solidarity between communities.
Miata Tan: It’s so beautiful to see.
It’s, it’s just like what a colorful event in so many ways. Uh, as you now step into the director role at Lav [00:49:00] Nix, Lavender Phoenix, what are you most excited about? What is 2026 gonna look like for you?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: I am most excited about integrating into this organization fully as the executive director and I feel so grateful that this organization is trusting me to lead alongside them. I’ve had the chance to have conversations with lots of conversations since, since my time onboarding in August through our meetings and also like strategy sessions where I’ve been able to connect with staff and members and understand what they care about, how they’re thinking about.
Our our strategy, how we can make our strategy sharper and more coordinated, um, so that we can show up in, in a more unified way, um, not just as an organization, but, but as a part of a larger movement ecosystem that we’re a part of [00:50:00] and that we’re in solidarity with other organizations in. So I am looking forward to like really embodying that.
it takes a lot of trust for an organization to be like, look, you, you weren’t one of our members. You weren’t a part of our staff prior to this, but we are trusting you because we’ve been in community and relationship with you and we have seen you. And so I just feel really grateful for that.
Miata Tan: For an organization like Lav Nix, which with such a rich history in, in the Bay Area is there anything from. That history that you are now taking into 2026 with you?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Yeah, I mean, I think in seeing how Lavender Phoenix has transformed over the last 10 years is really not being afraid to transform. Not being afraid to step even more fully into [00:51:00] our power. The organization is really well positioned to yeah, well positioned to build power in, in a larger community. And so I, I feel like I’ve seen that transformation and I get to also, I get to also continue that legacy after UN and also the previous leaders before that and previous members and staff, um, we stand on the, on their shoulders.
I stand on their shoulders. it’s so beautiful, like such a nice image. Everyone together, yeah, no, totally. I mean, just in the last few weeks, I, I’ve connected with the three executive directors before me.
And so when I say. I stand on their shoulders and like I’m a part of this lineage I still have access to. And then I’ve also been able to connect with, you know with a movement elder just last week where I was like, wow, you know, I get [00:52:00] to be a part of this because I’m now the executive director of this organization.
Like, I also get to inherit. Those connections and I get to inherit the work that has been done up to this point. And I feel really grateful and fortunate to be inheriting that and now being asked to take care of it so. and I know I’m not alone.
I think that’s what people keep saying. It’s like, you’re not, you know, you’re not alone. Right. I’m like, yeah. I keep telling myself that. It’s true. It’s true, it’s true.
Miata Tan: Latinx has a strong core team and a whole range of volunteers that also aid in, in, in your work, and I’m sure everyone will, everyone will be there to
make sure that you don’t like the, the, the shoulders are stable that you’re standing on.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Totally, totally. I mean, even the conversations that I’ve been a part of, I’m like, I’m the newest one here. Like, I wanna hear from you, [00:53:00] like, what, how are you thinking about this? There is so much desire to see change and be a part of it. And also so much brilliance like and experience to being a part of this organization. So yeah, absolutely. I’m not alone.
Miata Tan: One final question as with youth really being at the center of, of Lav Nix’s work. Is there something about that that you’re excited just, just to get into next year and, and thinking about those, those young people today that are you know, maybe not quite sure what’s going on, the world looks a little scary.
Like what, what can, what are you excited about in terms of helping those, those folks?
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Well, for a long time I, I worked with youth years ago before I before I found myself in like workers justice and workers’ rights building working class power. I also worked with working class [00:54:00] youth at one point, and I, I was one of those youth like 20 years ago.
And so, I know what my energy was like during that time. I also know how I also remember how idealistic I was and I remember how bright-eyed it was. And like really just there wasn’t openness to learn and understand how I could also be an agent of change and that I didn’t have to do that alone.
That I could be a part of something bigger than myself. And so so yeah, I think that like wielding the power of the youth in our communities and the different sectors is I think in a lot of ways they’re the ones leaving us, they know, they know what issues speak to, to them.
This is also the world they’re inheriting. they have the energy to be able to like and lived experience to be able to like, see through change in their lifetime. And you know, I’m, [00:55:00] I’m older than them. I’m older than a lot of them, but, I also can remember, like I, I can look back to that time and I know, I know that I had the energy to be able to like, you know, organize and build movement and, and really see myself as, as a, as someone who could be a part of that.
My first week here in, in August I actually was able to, to meet the, the, um, summer organizer, the summer organizers from our program. And I was, it just warms my heart because I remember being that young and I remember, remember being that like determined to like figure out like, what is my place in, in organizing spaces.
So they were the ones who really like, radically welcomed me at first. You know, like I came into the office and like we were co-working and they were the ones who radically welcomed me and like showed me how they show up in, in, um, [00:56:00] Lav Nix Spaces. I learned from them how to fundraise, like how Lavender Phoenix does it, how we fundraise.
And um, one of them fundraised me and I was like, I was like, how can I say no? Like they yeah. That we need that type of energy to keep it fresh.
Miata Tan: something about that that, um. It is exciting to think about when thinking about the future. Thank you so much for joining us, Tina. This was such a beautiful conversation. I’m so excited for all of your work.
Tina Shauf-Bajar: Thank you so much.
Miata Tan: That was Tina Shauf-Bajar, the incoming executive director at Lavender Phoenix. You can learn more about the organization and their fantastic work at LavenderPhoenix.org.
We thank all of you listeners out there, and in the words of Keiko Fukuda, a Japanese American judoka and Bay Area legend, “be strong, be [00:57:00] gentle, be beautiful”. A little reminder for these trying times.
For show notes, please check our website at kpfa.org/program/APEX-express.
APEX Express is a collective of activists that includes Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam. Tonight’s show was produced by me, Miata Tan.
Get some rest y’all. Good night.
The post APEX Express – 12.25.25 – A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – December 4, 2025
4 joulu 2025· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
The post APEX Express – December 4, 2025 appeared first on KPFA.
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APEX Express – November 27, 2025 – We Belong Here: Bhutanese & HMoob Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness
27 marras 2025· KPFA - APEX Express
A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Important Links

We Belong Here campaign page
We Belong Here Partner organizations: Asian Law Caucus |Asian Refugees United | Hmong Innovating Politics | Hmong Family Association of Lansing | Rising Voices

Transcript
APEX Express: Hello and welcome. You are tuning into APEX Express, a weekly radio show uplifting the voices and stories of Asian Americans. I’m your host, and tonight we are doing something a little different. Earlier this month on Monday, November 3rd, communities of Hmong and Nepali speaking, Bhutanese Americans, fellow immigrants and allies, gathered together at a virtual [00:01:00] community event called We Belong Here.
The goal: to shed light on the continued detainment and deportation of immigrant communities in the United States and the specific challenges faced by Bhutanese, Hmong, and Southeast Asian folks.
Tika Basnet: When, uh, my husband got detained on April 8, I took one week after to reach out Aisa and she told me, Hey Tika, come forward, you know, your story is powerful. People need to know your story.
APEX Express: That was the voice of Tika Basnet. Her husband, Mohan Karki is a Nepali speaking Bhutanese refugee from Ohio who has spent months in ICE detention, trapped in legal limbo. Tika has been working tirelessly to bring her husband home and shared her story with us at We Belong Here.
Tonight, we are bringing you a recording of this virtual community gathering. You’ll hear more from Tika about the Free Mohan Karki campaign and from Ann Vue, [00:02:00] the spouse of Lue Yang, a Hmong community leader from Michigan, who is also currently detained and facing deportation. Ann is leading the movement to Bring Lue Home, and we’ll be sharing more later about how you can get involved as well and support both of these campaigns.
You will also hear from state representatives of Michigan and Ohio, the music and spoken word performance of Asian Refugees United, and community tools and resources that a vital in helping to keep our immigrant loved ones safe. The host of this community event was Miko Lee, APEX producer, and a voice that you might be familiar with. Alrighty, without further ado, here’s Miko.
Miko Lee: We belong here. What we recognize right now is there’s almost. 60,000 people being held in detention right now, immigrants that are being held in detention.
It is a pandemic that is happening in our country that’s impacting all of our people, and we need [00:03:00] to be able to take action. Tonight we’re talking very specifically, not with this 60,000 people that are in detention now, but just two of those stories, so that you can get a sense of what is happening in the Bhutanese and Hmong communities and what’s happening right now, and to talk about those particular stories and some actions you can take.
First I wanna recognize that right now we are on native lands, so all of us except our original indigenous people, are from other places and I’d invite you to go into the chat and find your native land. I am speaking with you from the unceded Ohlone land, and I wanna honor these ancestors, these elders that have provided for us and provided this beautiful land for us to be on.
So I invite you to share into the chat your name, your pronoun, and also what indigenous land you are living on right now in this Native American Heritage Month.
Thank you so much to all of you that have joined [00:04:00] us. We are really seeing the impact of this administration on all of our peoples, and particularly tonight in terms of the Hmong and Nepali speaking, Bhutanese communities.
These are communities that have been impacted, specifically refugee communities that have been impacted in incredible detrimental ways by this administration. And tonight what we really wanna do is talk to you about what is going on in our communities. We wanted to make sure we translated so that we have as much access into our communities as possible because we wanna be as inclusive of our world as we can. We Belong Here is focusing on the fact that all of us belong here.
We belong in this land, and we are telling these stories tonight in the context of these sets of people particularly that have so many similarities in terms of Hmong folks who worked with our US government and worked with our US military during the Vietnam War and then came [00:05:00] here as refugees and stayed in this country to the Nepali speaking Bhutanese folks, who left their country from ethnic cleansing and then went into refugee camps and now took refuge in the United States.
So these are all stories that are impactful and powerful, and it’s really what it means to be American. we have come from different places. We see these attacks on our people. right now I would like to bring to the fore two empowering women, refugees themselves. Hailing from places as different as Somalia and Southeast Asia, and they’re gonna talk about some of the detention and deportations that are happening right now.
First I’d like to focus on Rep Mai Xiong, who’s from Michigan’s 13th District. I hand it over to the representative.
Rep. Mai Xiong: Good evening everyone. I’m state representative, Mai Xiong, and it is a pleasure to meet all of you virtually. I’m coming to you from Warren, Macomb County, Michigan, and I represent the 13th [00:06:00] house of district, uh, the communities of Warren Roseville and St. Claire Shores. I’ve lived here in Michigan for over 20 years now. I came to the United States at a very young age, was born in a refugee camp and came here when I was three years old. So I grew up in Ohio. And then I moved to Michigan to attend college.
Never thought that I would ever be serving in the State House. I previously served as a county commissioner here in Macomb. And, uh, last year when President Trump got elected, I had very quiet fears that as a naturalized citizen, that even I did not feel safe given the, um. The failure in our immigration system.
So we have seen that play out, uh, with this administration, with the, attempts to get rid of birthright citizenship de-naturalization. And, you hear the rhetoric from officials about, deporting the worst of the worst criminal, illegal aliens. And we [00:07:00] know, as Miko mentioned in, in her introduction, that, refugees came here through a legal pathway.
The Hmong in particular served alongside America during the Vietnam War and were persecuted from Laos. So my parents fled Laos. And so growing up I didn’t have, uh, citizenship. Um, and so we have seen, uh, in this administration that refugees are now caught up in this, immigration effort to get rid of
people who came here through legal pathways Lue is a father. He is a community leader. Uh, he is a well-respected member of our community as all of these individuals are. And at some point our system failed them and we are working extremely hard, to get their stories out. But what I have found with many of these families is that they are, uh, afraid to come forward.
They are ashamed. There is a stigma involved and, uh, culturally, as many of you may [00:08:00] know, if you are of Asian American descent, and a fear of, uh, retaliation. And as the only Hmong American elected here in Michigan, I’m grateful that I have, uh, the ability to.
have those connections and to be such a visible, uh, member of my community that many of these individuals. Felt comfortable enough to reach out to me. But the reality is back in July we didn’t know anything other than, the number of people who were detained. And that was through a firsthand account from loved ones who you know, were accompanying their loved one and got detained.
And so it was literally like trying to find missing people and then getting the word out to let them know that, hey, there’s actually, there’s help out there. The volunteer attorneys, the nonprofits, the Immigration Rights Center, uh, here in Michigan, I mean, everybody has been doing a phenomenal job because I think the majority, the vast majority of Americans understand that, um, these [00:09:00] individuals that are being taken out of our communities are not a, a threat to society. They are members of our community.
They’ve lived here for decades. They have jobs, they have children. And when you when you take an individual out of our community, it actually does more harm then it does to make any one of us safe. So that’s the message that I have been sharing with others, uh, not only in having a connection and being a refugee just like these individuals, but
advocating for them and making it clear that these are our neighbors, these are our children’s classmates, parents, and it doesn’t make any one of us feel safer. One of the things I am. Upset about that I continue to talk about is that we’re not actually in a immigration crisis. We share here in Michigan, we share an international border with Canada, and we have never had an issue with border security.
The [00:10:00] problem is the policies that have been put in place, that these individuals have been caught up in our immigration system for decades, and it is extremely hard for them to obtain citizenship or to even know what their rights are.
And so we really need, in addition to advocating for these families, we need immigration reform. Throwing money at a problem is not going to solve the problem. If anything, we have are, we are in an economic crisis.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining. Um, I’d love to turn the baton over to another one of our powerful women representatives, Rep. Munira Abdullah from Ohio’s Ninth District. Rep Abdullah. We pass it over to you. Thank you so much.
Rep. Munira Abdullahi: Uh, thank you for having me and also Rep Mai Xiong, it is really great to see you. I’m grateful to have been able to see you go from Commissioner to State Rep, doing amazing things on social media as well. I’m very, a big fan. Uh, my name is Munira Abdullahi.
I represent District Nine in Ohio, which is in the Columbus area. Northland, [00:11:00] uh, Manette Park. Uh, a little bit of New Albany in Westerville city schools. Um, I’m also a refugee. My family fled Somalia and Civil War, and I was born in refugee camp in Kenya. And then we came to the United States when I was about two, three years old, uh, and ended up moving to Ohio when I was like four.
First moved to Utah, salt Lake City, Utah, and then to Ohio when I was about five years old. And so I certainly understand the fear of being an immigrant in a new country and, um, struggling to belong and figure out where are your place is. And, and also just adjusting to a whole new society, um, with the language barriers and, and all of the the barriers are in the way.
And then that fear of, your immigration status. You know, before my parents were, you know, passed their, their, uh, citizenship test, right. It was very scary. Um, and I know many families who feel the same way right now, especially with this new administration. Um, with the OCE raids that are happening that are really disrupting our communities and our [00:12:00] families.
Um, we have a, a, a cons, a constituent of mine, um, who is now, uh, in prison. We have, uh, have a couple actually. One is Leonardo Faso, and then I know one we’re gonna talk about soon is Mohan Karki, who is his family, I believe, is on this call. Uh, and he was taken by ICE. And he’s, uh, you know, the, the breadwinner and the, the caregiver of his family.
And so it’s really important not to forget that a lot of these people who are being taken by ICE are like the breadwinners and, and, and the caretakers of these families. And now the family’s left with a hole, uh, in their, in their home. And so, we really need to remember to take care of these families.
I know there’s gonna be a GoFundMe that that will be shared. Um, but finding these families and supporting them. Um, in any way that we can monetary, you know, checking on them, giving, you know, helping them with food. Now we have SNAP benefits are being cut for many, many, many Americans. We are struggling as is, but immigrants in particular are struggling a lot, lot more, um, with these raids and, and with the uncertainties.
But one thing I wanna remind everyone is that, you know, through community we [00:13:00] find strength. And so that, um, understanding, you know, where our communities are, where people are suffering and finding our place and helping with that, right? Whether that might, might be, uh, maybe we have the financial capabilities to, to support, maybe we can cook for someone.
Um, maybe we can advocate where, where we have the ability to advocate. Whatever we can do, we have a responsibility to do it. Um, and there are successes. I know in Ohio it’s a little different where we can’t really advocate anything on the state level because it’s like they, we just make things worse.
We’re in a very rough, super minority, the Democrats and super minority, and we have bills in the State House we’re trying to fight against that are trying to make it worse, where we’re trying to get rid of Republicans in the State House are trying to get rid of like a sanctuary cities, um, and penalize cities that don’t engage, uh, or don’t cooperate with ICE.
Um, we have currently a bill, which actually this is, this might be more of a, on a positive note, is we had a bill house bill one. That sought to ban immigrants, certain immigrants from owning land in certain areas. [00:14:00] But because of community engagement, because of advocacy, because of collaboration with community advocacy groups, that Bill was effectively paused.
Like, as of now, it’s paused because people came and advocated. They spoke to their representatives, they testified, they called, they protested, um, they had press conferences. They brought so much attention to the bill, and it just became so. Obvious that people don’t want this bill. And that pressure really got to the majority in the State House.
And that bill has been paused, right? It was created to keep Chinese Americans from buying land specifically. Um, and that list can change, by the way. It’s an, it’s a, a rotating list. The Secretary of State can add whatever countries that they want to, that list, so it’s very harmful. But the Asian American community came together alongside with us representatives in the State House and, and effectively like paused that bill.
So there’s there are positive things we could, we could achieve as a community when we fight together and communicate and stand with one another regardless of our nationality. We’re all struggling here. We’re [00:15:00] all in the same place. We’re all, uh, in need of one another. And that’s why I was reminding people was like, when we are in need of one another.
And when one person is struggling, we should all be feeling that.
Miko Lee: Thank you Rep Munira. Thank you so much for joining us. And yes, we are all part of a collective community that needs to be working together. And Rep Munira talked about Mohan Karki and next we’re gonna see a short video performance that was created by Asian refugees United, uh, Maxine Hong Kingston said, “in a time of destruction, create something”. So we’re gonna watch this video that was created. Uh, it’s a shortcut of a performance by Asian Refugees United.
APEX Express: Hello, it’s your APEX Express host chiming in with a couple words on this performance.
It’s a very music and spoken word forward piece, so you should get a good sense of the production through just the audio. The youth performers from Asian Refugees United do a wonderful job of embodying the story of Mohan Karki and his family through music and [00:16:00] movement and dance as well. Very evocative. If you’d like to see this short video clip in full, with the visuals, please visit the website of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality.
That’s accre.org/our-voices/webelonghere.
Enjoy the show.
ARU Performer: Mohan Karki, I was detained by an ICE officer to be deported to a country that I never been to.
A country. That I don’t belong to [00:17:00] a country I wasn’t born to, that I don’t speak the language of. When they moved me to a detention center in Michigan, I called my wife Tika. They’re taking me, I told her my voice was calm, but inside I was breaking into a million pieces.
It felt like a goodbye, not just to her, but to the life we built together to the dreams that we planted seeds for. I was just 17 years old when I decided who I was before I could even speak up for myself.
I stand here as a victim of an unjust system that never gave me a chance.[00:18:00]
I am a man with purpose. I worked hard. I drove trucks. I supported my family, and I loved my wife Tika, and waited for the day that I would finally meet our baby. [Speaks in Nepali]
How do I tell my daughter that leaving her was never my choice? Now I wait for the news. Now would completely change everything.
Will they send me back to Bhutan? Will I be deported like the ones before me?
No one talks about what happens to us [00:19:00] once we’re gone.
We vanish. Into silence. Where do I belong?
You belong here. They belong here. We belong here. [Singing in Nepali]
[Speaks in Nepali] What type of future do we wanna build?
A future where we can all belong? A future where we can coexist, [00:20:00] coexist in nature. And coexist with each other. A future where another Mohan Karki does not have to fear of being displaced all over again. A future where Mohan Karki does not have to be separated from his new born baby girl. A place where people like Mohan Carkey can have home, a future and community, a future with family, a future and harmony.
A future to heal. A future to grow. Above all, a future to belong. I hope the future is more generous to all of us.
[Singing in [00:21:00] Nepali]
Miko Lee: Can you all give it up in the chat for those performers. Nawal was our interpreter at the very beginning of this, and to show the power of how art can transform things at that performance, the ACLU was there. And actually because of that, we were able to find a pro bono lawyer to be able to help with one of, uh, Mohans Habeas Corpuses cases and just that’s an example of Asian refugees United, that was their work before all of these detentions were going on. It was youth empowerment and storytelling, but they had to pivot, given the shape of our world. I wanna transition us to our panel of speakers of powerful. Again, powerful women.
[00:22:00] Um, Ann Vue who is the spouse of Lue Yang, Tika Bassett, who is the spouse of Mohan Karki and Aisa Villarosa, who has been our brilliant, dedicated lawyer from Asian Law Caucus working on this. So we’re not gonna go over and tell the entire stories of each of these people and what happened to them. And if you want that, you can listen to the radio show that we did on APEX Express.
Tika, I wanted to start with you and just hear from you, what is your response after watching that video about your husband?
Tika Basnet: Yeah, it is really beautiful story. Um, thank you ARU for, um, representing my husband story. Um, it just make, make me cry and I was crying while watching the video and it remind me what happened.
Since seven month ago. And, um, yeah. Hi, my name is Tika Basnet. I’m from Ohio and I’ve been fighting for my husband deportation and detention since seven month ago. Without the community and without all the [00:23:00] support that I got from organization, I don’t think it is possible that my husband will still be here.
And the reason that this is possible is because I reach out to them without getting fear, without getting afraid of what will happen if I speak outside. So, um, yeah, um, it is really difficult. What is going on right now. Sometime I don’t wanna speak because of the current policy. Uh, it make me feel, even though I’m US citizen, um, sometime I feel like if I speak something against the policy, I, they will might, they might gonna take my citizenship away.
And then, um, I realized that, if I speak then it’ll help me. Right now, um, ICE is not letting my husband come home, even though it is been seven month and our attorney try everything in a possible way. Uh, the ICE is not letting my husband come out. I dunno how long it’ll take. I don’t know. don’t wanna, yeah.
Thank you.
Miko Lee: No, you can speak more. Tika. Do you wanna add?
Tika Basnet: Yeah, um, especially I wanna thank you [00:24:00] ARU and Aisa and Miko. Everything is happening right now is because of them, because I reached out to them. If I did not, I feel like my husband is story will be one of those Bhutanese people that disappear.
I don’t know what happened to them. I hope, uh, the reason that I’m fighting for my husband case is because he deserve fear. Uh, he has a family member here. He has a community that loves him. He was supporting his parent, he was supporting us. We don’t have a country. Um, this is our country and we belong here.
Thank you.
Miko Lee: You. Thank you, Tika. I wanna bring Ann Vue up to speak about your husband, Lue Yang and his case and what’s going on with his case. Very complicated case. What is going on with his case right now?
Ann Vue: So first of all,
Thank you guys so much for. Giving Tika and I this space just to share our stories of families who are fighting every day, um, just to stay together.
So [00:25:00] currently with Lue’s case right now we are, we just got his, um, stay of removal approved the emergency stay of removal approved. I might, um, have the right lingo for that, but, uh, so as of October 22nd our Michigan governor’s, pardon was issued for Lue. So we were so grateful for that.
I know our, our Michigan lawmakers are working around the clock uh, Michigan DHS team to bring him back to Michigan, uh, where we have a petition currently filed for his release while his case, uh, is ongoing.
Miko Lee: Thanks Ann. And I just wanna point out that there’s in, even though these communities are distinct and these two men are distinct, beautiful individuals, there are so many commonalities between the two. Um, both born in refugee camps, both in one case, the Bhutanese, the Nepali speaking Bhutanese, folks having escaped ethnic cleansing to then go to a.
Uh, [00:26:00] refugee camp to then come to the US and in another families who worked with the American government in the Secret War in Vietnam, who then again became refugees and came to the US. Two young men who when they were young, like very young, um, with their peers, were involved in incidents that had, uh, really bad legal advice.
That did not help them in the process. And that is why even though they’re amazing contributing members in our current society, they have this past old, almost like childhood record that is impacting them. And both of them are impacted by statelessness because. Even though they’re being deported, they’re being deported to a place of which it is not their home.
They might not speak that language. They might not have connections with that. Their home is here in America. Um, that is why we say use the terminology we belong here. Um, before we go a little bit more into personal stories [00:27:00] I saw from Asian Law Caucus, I wonder if you can give a little bit of an overview about the broader, legal actions that are taking place around these kidnappings.
Aisa Villarosa: Yeah, thanks Miko. And just huge love to Ann and Tika. Reiterating that these are two refugee communities bonded through not just this frustrating, heartbreaking experience, um, but also this, this solidarity that’s building. To share Miko, about the broader legal ramifications,
and there was a question in the chat about what’s the big deal about a stay of removal? So just for starters, the system that Mohan and Lue got pulled into can be lightning quick with removing folks. Part of this is because Mohan, Lue, so many folks in refugee communities all across the country years and years ago, perhaps when they were teenagers, just like Mohan and Lue, uh, there might have been some sort of, run in with law enforcement. Oftentimes racial profiling [00:28:00] can be involved, especially with the over-policing, right in our country, decades later, after living peacefully in their communities. Oftentimes decades after an immigration judge said to Mohan, said to Lue, you are not a safety risk. You are not a threat to the community.
You’ve done your time. You can come home. Uh, maybe some folks had some ICE check-ins that they would come to every year. Um, and then with this administration, this unprecedented attack on immigrant and refugee rights, that is when we started to see for the very first time as folks have mentioned, these broad deportations, uh, to countries that previously were not accepting refugees primarily because that is the same country of their ancestral persecution. Um, in some cases they have zero connection to the country. Um, and in cases like the Bhutanese refugees, they’re actually [00:29:00] expelled from Bhutan when they’re removed. Again, all this is happening for the very first time. There are some serious legal questions with due process.
Even if immigration court does run on a similar track as a lot of our other court systems, there’s still a duty of fairness and often that duty is completely neglected.
APEX Express: You are tuned into Apex Express on 94.1 KPFA, 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno and [email protected]. Coming up is Klezmer Dances II by The Daniel Pelton Collective.
[00:30:00] [00:31:00] [00:32:00] That was Klezmer Dances II by The Daniel Pelton Collective. You are tuned into APEX Express [00:33:00] on 94.1 KPFA. Now back to Miko and her conversation with Tika Basnet and Ann Vue. Two incredibly strong women who are leading campaigns to bring home their respective spouses from ICE detention, and Aisa Villarosa with the Asian Law Caucus.
Miko Lee: I would love to speak to a little bit more of the uplifting power of these women that are being highlighted right now.
And I’m wondering both for Ann and Tika, if you could talk a little bit about your sense of resilience. because both of your spouses were, even though when they were youth, there were systems impacted in our Asian American communities. There’s some shame that’s associated with that. And so some people have been really hesitant to speak out.
Can you talk a little bit about what encouraged you to speak out on behalf of your husband and how that has made a difference for you in the community? And I’m gonna start with Ann first.
Ann Vue: So I would say, um. In the [00:34:00] beginning when Lue was first detained on July 15th. I was scared.
I am the first generation born American, uh, um, right here in Michigan. And even myself, I was so scared to say anything to anyone. I remember getting that call from Lue and it just felt so unreal. Quickly playing back to 2008, uh, which would be the third time that the embassy, Laos and Thailand both rejected Lue’s entry and how his immigration officer was like, don’t wait, start your life.
And then fast forwarding it to what had happened, I was scared and, um. Lue and I are both, uh, Hmong community leaders as well. And Lue, of course, um, being president of the Hmong Family Association, him and I decided we’re gonna keep a little quiet at first, and I started getting [00:35:00] calls from our Hmong community members.
Uh, in concern to them receiving a letter, which is all dated for the same time at the same place that is not usual, where people would normally go see their immigration officer. And immediately that weekend I went to go visit him and I, it was explaining to him that I have received nine calls and I don’t know what to do in immediately he.
I think that the urgency around his people created that fear and immediately he was like, Hey, we’ve gotta start talking. You’ve gotta call you. You have to start making calls. Because he was detained on the 15th. On the 15th, which was Tuesday, and these letters were mailed to the community on that Friday.
And immediately him and I started talking more and more and he said, “we have a 50-50 chance. If you don’t fight for me and the others, then. We get sent back, you’re gonna regret that for the rest of your life or [00:36:00] you fight for us. And as long as you fought all the way till the end, whatever happens, we can live with that”.
And immediately, I remember speaking to, uh, attorney Nancy, and I’ve been mentioning to her that I wanna call, I wanna call Rep Mai. And I wanted to call Commissioner Carolyn Wright and she was like, well make the call and I’m glad that she didn’t wait. And she just said, Hey, you know what? She just started talking and immediately Rep Mai called and that’s how it kind of started this whole journey.
So I am so thankful that I did. I did voice it out because I myself, even as a community leader, I felt hopeless. I felt like as loud as I am, everyone that I, for the first time had no voice. It became, became lonely. I became scared. Because they’ve got a, you know, we have a family, right, that we’re raising together with small children.
So I’m glad that we did, uh, [00:37:00] share our story and I’m glad that it is out. And, and that it, it opened the key to many other Southeast Asian families to do the same as well too.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Anna. And I remember you saying that even Lue was speaking with folks in Spanish to get their stories and share them out as well.
Ann Vue: He had to learn it! And you know, I will say that with this whole detention thing, it doesn’t just detain our person. It detains our whole family. We’re all a part of this, you know? And so, you know, Lue had to learn how to count so he can give the numbers ’cause he was doing it with his hand motions.
Because it’s a hard system, it’s a very complex system to navigate, which is how people go disappearing. And so for him to be able to reach out. Give me phone numbers to these families, regardless. Love beyond borders, right? And I was able to reach out to these families so that that way they know where their person was and [00:38:00] help them get set up so they can, so their families can call them.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for doing that. And you and your husband, both as organizers and continuing to be organizers even when locked up. Tika, I wanna turn it to you and ask about the courage it took to speak up and what keeps you going.
Tika Basnet: Yes. So when, uh, my husband got detained on April 8, I took one week after to reach out Aisa and she told me, Hey Tika, come forward.
You know, your story is powerful. People need to know your story. And I told first thing to Aisa is our community is very just mental. They doesn’t understand. And I’ve been looking at the video where our Bhutanese people get detained and deported and on common section, the first thing that I noticed was people are commenting, oh, these people are criminal.
They are, maybe they, um, kill someone or they rape someone, you know, without. Understanding the people’s story. And I, I [00:39:00] was thinking the same, whatever, if I come forward, will they gonna understand my story? Will they gonna talk to me? Will they gonna ask me personally, what is going on? And I actually same as Ann, I, um, I.
Was scared to come out. I did not come out in two within two, two months, you know, when, uh, I tried to deport my husband on my due date that I was about to give birth, um, BIA, uh, grant, day of removal, you know, in two month I was crying alone. I was messaging Aisa and I was telling all my pain. And then when they stop my husband deport his son and that day, um.
Aisa and ARU, everybody encouraged me. Like, you know, you need to come forward. People need to know your story. And then that day I decide, and I also remember that, um, within one minute after I gave birth, I was messaging, uh, ARU team I think his name [00:40:00] is Pravin or something. I was messaging him, Hey, I’m ready to give, uh, interview.
I’m ready to give uh, a story. And that day I decide like I wanna come forward. I don’t care what society is thinking, I’m the one that going through and people need to know my story. And, uh, I think, uh, and also I look at my daughter, you know, I don’t want, um, her to think that I did not fight for her dad.
You know, I want her to think like her mom is, is strong enough to fight and looking at her. That gave me so much power and yeah. And now like give, getting a lot of support, a lot of love is give me like, you know, I, I feel like, um, I wouldn’t, uh, get all the support if I was scared and did not, uh, talk about my story.
So now like receiving a lot of love from everywhere and that give me couraged to continue and talk about my husband’s deportation.
Miko Lee: Thank you, Tika. And I wanna recognize that we’re running late, but we’re gonna get through it if those of you could stay with us a little bit [00:41:00] longer.
My one more question to both Ann and Tika is what message do you have for people that are experiencing this right now? Because this, as we said, 60,000 people are detained right now. Your spouses, we, as we have said, it’s not just you with your, the children, the grandparents, all the other people. What advice do you have for other folks that are going through this and do you have a message for those folks?
Ann Vue: I would say, um, for anyone who is going through what Tika and I and the many are going through that, um, make sure you document everything, get your loved ones Alien Number because you want to track it as you go. Build your circle. Know that you are not alone. Uh, reach out. I’m still learning as I go too.
And it’s unfortunate that we as family, like have to become attorneys overnight and learn to as well. But make sure that you guys, that you know that you’re not alone you know that [00:42:00] we’re not fighting the system. We’re fighting a system that. Hopes, uh, that we get tired of fighting it.
And the moment that you speak up, they can’t disappear your loved one quietly. And I am a very big, um, firm believer. There’s this scripture that has always carried Lue and I and, uh, I, I can’t stress on it enough. And especially to all of those, to all of our, everybody that’s on tonight. And beyond that, uh, there’s a scripture.
It’s a Proverbs, right? 3:27-28 that says, “Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is your power to act”. And so thank you to those who continues to act when action is really within your reach and. We belong here, our families belong here. And compassion delayed is really compassion denied.
And so don’t fight alone ’cause that’s what they are hoping that we will fight alone, [00:43:00] but we’re together in this.
Miko Lee: Beautiful, thanks. And Tika, what about you? What advice do you have for other people that are experiencing this with family members?
Tika Basnet: So, yeah, um, I’m encouraging everyone like we experiencing this deportation for the first time or.
Come forward. You never know. You know how many support you will get. Looking at Ann and my story that if we did not reach out to the community, I don’t think our husband will be here at the moment. So you are the one who going through the pain and, uh, sharing your pain will make you at least a relief and you never know.
Your husband Deportes and will stop. You will get like support from, from community. So ICE is not deporting only your husband or your like wife or someone, they are deporting your dream, your hope. So when they try to deport my husband, they were deporting my husband, uh, my [00:44:00] daughter future, the future that we talk about.
So I am telling everyone that come forward. Story, your story, and you’ll get lot of love. You’ll get lot of support. And if I did not talk before, I don’t think my husband will be here. He’ll be one of the person that disappear long time ago. So yeah, please come forward and see your story. And the last thing is, I wanna say we belong here.
This is our home and our future is here.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much, Tika. Um, Aisa, I wanna turn it over to you. Ann was saying suddenly we have to become lawyers and, and so can you talk about, and even like with Lue’s case, it was suddenly he got pardoned at the last minute when he was on a deportation plane, and then it was like, oh, that should fix everything, but it doesn’t, so can you talk a little bit about some of the legal ramifications that people should know about?
Aisa Villarosa: Sure. And just to say, Mohan, Lue, Tika, Ann, I mean, y’all have lived [00:45:00] several movies in, in just the span of months the amount of stress, both you yourselves as the lead advocate, your families. Uh, so, so for folks watching this is literally Mohan and Lue getting like pulled off planes because of the shared advocacy here, uh, which starts with the decision to speak out.
Um, and for folks in the room who aren’t sure whether they want to share their story, you know, we’re not saying, oh, go to the press so much of it. Involves just opening your heart to a trusted person. Um, many of those people are here in this room uh, my organization, Asian Law Caucus. Uh, in a minute we’ll share some links for some of our resources.
Uh, the wonderful folks at ARU, there’s such a full crew, and if you’re part of a community, especially the many, many, too many refugee communities being targeted. You are not alone. So in terms of what the legal battle [00:46:00] looks like, another thing to remember is that for any case, there’s usually a, a wave of folks that’s needed, uh, for Lue, for Mohan.
That’s multiple states sometimes because in the immigration world, for example, you could have a very, very old final order of removal. So this is essentially the order that is put forward by an immigration judge. That technically allows a lot of these awful deportations and disappearances to take place.
The battle to fight that can be multi-state, uh, multi-issue. So you’re talking to a criminal defense attorney, you’re talking to an immigrant rights attorney. Uh, but going back to that trust, just talk to someone who both you can trust and someone who has a good lay of the land because these cases are incredibly complex.
Folks I work with, sometimes they’re physically driving to a law office. Someone named Emily is on the call. You know, we drove to a law office. Turns [00:47:00] out the record we were looking for was, was too old. The, that previous attorney didn’t have the record on file. There are so many practical challenges you don’t anticipate.
So the sooner you do that math and just open your story up, um, to, to a loved one, to a trusted one. And in a little bit we’re, we’ll share more links for what that process looks like.
Miko Lee: So we’re gonna move into that call to action. We’re running a bit over time, so if you could hang with us for a couple more minutes.
Um, we want to one, thank all of our amazing guests so far and then move to our call to action. What can you do? A bunch of people are throwing things into the chat. We’re gonna start with Rising Voices. Oh, I guess we’re gonna start with OPAWL and Sonya is gonna share about OPAWL’s work and the call to action there.
Sonya (OPAWL): Hi everyone. My name is Sonya Kapur. I live in Columbus, Ohio, and I’m a member of OPAWL Building AAPI Feminist leadership. I’d like to share a little bit about our efforts to support Mohans Campaign for Freedom and encourage you to donate to [00:48:00] Mohans GoFundMe to cover his legal fees, and the link to the GoFundMe will be in the chat. With the funds raised so far, Tika and Mohan were able to hire a seasoned attorney to review Mohans court documents and work on his case. So your donations will allow Mohan to continue working with his legal team as we fight to bring him home. So even five or $10 will help us get closer to reuniting Mohan with his family and community here in Ohio.
A really fun piece of this is that a local, Columbus based illustrator and OPA member Erin Siao, has also created a beautiful art fundraiser to help raise more funds from Mohans release campaign. So when you donate to Mohans GoFundMe between now and November 15th, you receive a complimentary five by seven art print of your choice.
Families belong together on the right or on the left. To receive a print, you just email Erin and her. Email address will also be in the [00:49:00] chat, a screenshot of your donation confirmation along with your name and address. You can also send a direct message of the screenshot to her Instagram account, so please consider uplifting our art fundraiser on social media.
Encourage others to donate to the GoFundMe and share Mohans story with your family and friends.
Miko Lee: Thanks, Sonya and Opal, and we’ll turn it over to Emily at Rising Voices.
Emily (Rising Voices): Hi, thank you. Um, rising Voices is one of the, uh, many members helping bring Lue Yang home. Just wanna share that. We do have a online petition going that directs you to email the ice field office in Detroit, pressuring them to bring him home. Um, there’s also a number to call with a script provided.
So nothing has to be reinvented. We please, please encourage you to share this out, and you do not have to be from Michigan to make a call or email every single email. And, all counts. And we also do have a GoFundMe for [00:50:00] him and his family. As we all know legal file, legal fees pile up, so anything counts.
Thank you so much everyone.
Miko Lee: Thanks Emily. Now we’re gonna pass it over to Nawal talking about this event which is connected to disappeared in America.
Nawal Rai: Hi everyone. I’m Nawal here again and yeah, so We Belong Here. Uh, today’s event was part of the Disappeared in America Weekend of Action, which is a national mobilization action to protect immigrants, uh, expose corporate complicity and honor the lives lost in detention and across America more than 150 towns and cities held.
Um. Weekend of Collective action this weekend on November 1st and second, standing in solidarity with immigrants families, uh, from holding freedom vigils outside of ICE facilities to via de Los Mortis gathering, honoring life’s lost in detentions to ice out of Home Depot actions. Calling out corporate complicity this weekend was a resounding nation nationwide call for compassion, dignity, and [00:51:00] democracy, and demanding justice and due process for all.
The National Action was organized by the Coalition of Partners, including National Day Labor Organizing Network, Detention Watch Network, the Worker Circle, public ci, uh, citizen, and many allied organization across the country. Thank you all. Thank you for joining us today.
Miko Lee: Thank you to everyone for showing up today.
We thank all of our speakers, all of our many partner organizations. As we were saying, it takes many of us working together collectively. Even though we said there’s 60,000 people detained. There are so many more than that. We know that immigrants contribute and refugees contribute immensely to the American experience, and we want everyone to know that we belong here.
All of us belong here. This is our home.
Thank you so much for joining us all. We appreciate all of you, the interpreters, the translators, the folks behind the scene who helped to make this event happen. Um, shout out to Cheryl Truong [00:52:00] and APEX Express for really doing all the tech behind this. And to all of you for showing up tonight, we need each and every one of you to participate to show that you are part of the beloved community, that you are part of believing that America can be a place filled with beloved love instead of hatred.
Um, so I would love you all to just all together. Shout out. We belong here. 1, 2, 3.
Event Attendees: We belong here. We belong here.
We belong here.
Miko Lee: Have a great night, and thank you all for joining us.
APEX Express: This was a recording of a virtual community gathering that took place earlier this month on Monday, November 3rd. It was made [00:53:00] possible by We Belong Here, a coalition of immigrant rights organizations, Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, Asian Refugees United, Asian Law Caucus, Hmong Family Association Lansing, Hmong Innovative Politics, OPAWL and Rising Voices.
As I mentioned earlier, you can watch the phenomenal video performance from Asian Refugees United on the website of Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality.
That’s aacre.org/our-voices/webelonghere
There’s also up-to-date information on how best you can support both the Free Mohan Karki and Bring Lu Home campaigns.
We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing. Your voices are important. Let’s keep immigrant families together.
To close out. Here’s a little more from the video performance.
[00:54:00] [00:55:00] [00:56:00] [00:57:00]
APEX Express: For show notes, please check out our website, kpfa.org/program/APEX-express.
APEX Express is a collective of activists that include Ama Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Miata Tan, Preeti Mangala Shekar, and Swati Rayasam.
Get some rest, y’all. Good night.

The post APEX Express – November 27, 2025 – We Belong Here: Bhutanese & HMoob Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness appeared first on KPFA.
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Episodit

APEX Express – 6.4.26 – Food Justice

APEX Express – 5.28.26 – Building South Asian Power

APEX Express – 4.30.26 – Bruce Lee and the Manosphere

APEX Express – 4.23.26 – Nurses of The Pitt

APEX Express – 4.16.26 – Rethinking Immigration Detention

APEX Express – 4.9.26 – Library Joy

APEX Express – 4.2.26 – Surviving Through Solidarity.

APEX Express – 3.26.26 – A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter

APEX Express – 3.19.26- The Power of Tenderness

APEX Express – 3.12.26- Feed Your Heart

APEX Express – 2.12.26 – Anti-Pacific Islander Hate Amid Ongoing Injustice

APEX Express – 2.5.26-Envisioning Hopeful Futures

APEX Express – 1.29.26 – White Switch

APEX Express – 1.22.26 – What Is Community Safety?

APEX Express – 1.15.26 – Chat with Authors

APEX Express – 1.08.26 – Magical Realism and AAPI Short Films

APEX Express – January 1, 2026 – The Role of the Artist in Social Movements

APEX Express – 12.25.25 – A Conversation with Lavender Phoenix: The Next Chapter

APEX Express – December 4, 2025

APEX Express – November 27, 2025 – We Belong Here: Bhutanese & HMoob Americans in the Struggle Against Statelessness