Episodes

  • What do you think of when you hear the word 'error'? It's highly likely you'll think of it negatively as a defect. The obvious way to manage defects, particularly in safety-critical industries, is to have detailed procedures, strict compliance, and zero tolerance for errors. But we know that this doesn't always work. After all, if it did, we'd have far fewer errors.

    My guest on this episode takes a different approach. He specializes in helping organizations, particularly safety-critical ones where the cost of getting something wrong can be death or injury, to reduce errors, improve safety and build trust. He calls this human reliability. His name is Dr. Jake Mazulewicz, and he's been a firefighter, an emergency medical technician and a military paratrooper.

    Nowadays, he brings all of those experiences to bear in helping organizations design processes and cultures that allow humans to manage the complexities that don't always allow themselves to be neatly codified into standard procedures. As you'll hear, he's got some fascinating ideas about designing safety models that flex to meet the situation's needs.

    Key Moments In The Show (mins:secs)



    02:14 — Dr. Jake’s background

    05:25 — Mechanistic vs. Adaptive systems

    06:28 — The big problem: too many leaders treat ALL systems as Mechanistic systems

    09:10 — What to say to a commercial pilot when you’re walking off their aircraft after the flight lands

    10:40 — Four work guidance modes

    11:00 — 1) Procedures

    11:53 — 2) Guidelines like, “To find out what an organization values, follow the money."

    13:00 — 3) Principles like “A jury doesn’t decide what to believe. A jury decides who to believe."

    21:20 — 4) Tacit Knowledge — You can solve complex problems, but can’t explain how

    26:40 — “All models are wrong, but some of them are useful.”

    31:10 — How one team of electricians dramatically improved safety by using FEWER procedures

    35:57 — Letter of the law vs. spirit of the law

    38:20 — Have you heard of Philip K. Howard?... "Let’s pretend I haven’t.”

    42:10 — We write rules when we don’t have enough trust

    44:55 — Build trust by overcommunicating your intentions

    45:25 — “Commander’s Intent” in military mission plans

    47:55 — Listen for "Weak Signals" like hearing, “I’ll do whatever it takes…"

    50:40 — Stay resilient by catching a system before it goes “exponential”

    54:00 — Chris Argyris’ 17-word, 4-step recipe for creating a toxic work culture

    57:10— A new Early Warning System

    58:20 — Ask an expert, “What’s a 'Weak Signal' in your field, and what does it mean?”

    1:04:55 — Why a non-punitive approach is so helpful and so uncommon

    1:10:10 — How to get in touch with Dr. Jake — reliableorg.com

    Further Information
    To find out more about Praxtical Human Performance For Leaders visit www.reliableorg.com

    LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jake-mazulewicz/



  • What are museums, and what purpose do they serve? As a regular museum-goer — both when I’m travelling and also at home when I need distraction or creative inspiration — I’m always intrigued, both by what they show and how they show it.

    If you’ve been following my Compliance In The Wild series on LinkedIn (example post here)
    you’ll know that museums regularly feature as they often contain fabulous examples of Human Risk and the methods we use to mitigate it.

    My guest on this episode is Dr Freddie Mason, who is a Senior Creative Strategist at Bompass and Parr and the author of a report on the future of museums. The report explores what a museum is, or rather, what it could be.

    Bompas & Parr are, in their own words, ‘a fully-fledged creative studio offering food and drink design, brand consultancy and immersive experiences across a diverse number of industries'. When they research something, it’s not your traditional piece of research because they also add creative flair to their findings.

    Which is why, in the report and on the show, you’ll hear some fascinating insights, including:
    What purpose do museums serve?;Do museums need to be in physical locations;How could museums could be transformed into vibrant social spaces;What role can museums play as catalysts for societal issues;How virtual reality could provide immersive experiences in museums;The importance of providing inclusive environments in museums;How liminal spaces could be deployed as museums;and much, much more.

    Links

    To learn more about Bompas & Parr: www.bompasandparr.com

    The report we discuss: https://bompasandparr.com/case-study/future-of-p-leisure-2024/

    Freddie’s book on Viscosity: https://punctumbooks.com/people/freddie-mason/

    To hear Alix Cherobrier (then Hope) talking about the future of experiences on the show in 2020: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/alix-hope-on-fluid-landscapes/

    To hear Professor Tom Schoessler talking on the show about deploying Behavioural Science in a Museum: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/professor-tom-schossler-on-deploying/

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  • What is it like to grow up in a country that no longer exists?

    That's the challenge faced by my guest Katja Hoyer. She grew up in the GDR, the German Democratic Republic. Or as most of us think of it, East Germany.

    While most histories of the country focus on the political decision-making or things that are most extraordinary — for example, the Stasi, the East German secret police or dramatic escapes over the Berlin Wall — Katja wanted to write a more human history.

    In her book 'Beyond The Wall' or 'Jenseits der Mauer' in German translation, Katja explores not only the politics of the country, but also what life was like for people within the country.

    Since the book has been out for several months and there are lots of other shows on which you can hear about what's in it — though we do touch on a few human risk-relevant dynamics such as the challenges facing the Stasi in dealing with the information they gathered and the prevalence of paranoia within the country's leadership — I'm interested in the dynamics around the book, rather than the detail of what's in it.

    You'll hear:
    why a Germany history researcher is based in the UK, and not as you might expect Germany;what prompted Katja to write the book;the challenges of getting people to speak about the past;'soul lag' what happens when our bodies move faster than our soulsthe reactions to the book in Germany and elsewhereWeimar - the book that Katja is about to start writing.and much, much more.

    About Katja
    Katja Hoyer is a German-British historian, journalist and the author of the widely acclaimed Blood and Iron. A visiting Research Fellow at King's College London and a Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, she is a columnist for the Washington Post and hosts the podcast The New Germany together with Oliver Moody. She was born in East Germany and is now based in the UK.

    Beyond The Wall is published by Penguin books is available from all good bookstores:
    https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/447141/beyond-the-wall-by-hoyer-katja/9780241553787

    Diesseits der Mauer is published ny Hoffmann und Kampe and is also available from all good bookstores: https://hoffmann-und-campe.de/products/63884-diesseits-der-mauer

    Substack/Podcasts: to learn more about Katja's writings and podcasts: katjahoyer.uk
    You can listen to 'The New Germany', the show she hosts with Oliver Moody here: https://koerber-stiftung.de/en/podcasts/history-politics/podcast-series-the-new-germany/

    Social Media: You can follow Katja on Twitter/X here: https://twitter.com/hoyer_kat?

    Her Kings College faculty page is: https://www.kcl.ac.uk/people/katja-hoyer

    Podcasts where Katja discusses her book:
    https://www.podbean.com/premium-podcast/travelsthroughtime/Ro9XbpH3jC2m
    https://audioboom.com/posts/8275986-katja-hoyer-beyond-the-wall
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/podcast/katja-hoyer-beyond-the-wall/
    https://coldwarconversations.com/episode284/
    https://www.spreaker.com/user/10740198/history-unplugged-beyond-the-wall-with-a

    Dirk Oschmann's book 'Der Osten: eine Westdeutsche Erfingung'
    https://www.ullstein.de/werke/der-osten-eine-westdeutsche-erfindung/hardcover/9783550202346

  • What is the Monday Revolution, and why do we need it?

    On this episode, I'm speaking to someone who used to run a company that grabbed a lot of my attention during my teenage and younger years. That company was Capital Radio — at the time, London's largest radio station — and that person is David Mansfield.

    After being CEO of Capital and its successor company, GCap Media, he went on to advise a number of other successful companies, including Carphone Warehouse and Game Group. Nowadays, as well as retaining roles within the radio industry, David is an investor, an accredited business coach, and an adviser to numerous companies. He's a Fellow of the Center for Evidence-Based Management and the Radio Academy and has been a Visiting Professor at the Bayes Business School in London and a Visiting Fellow at the University of Oxford.

    The Monday Revolution is the title of David's book and the name of his mission to simplify business behaviour and provide executives of all ranks and company sizes with the tools and approach to get more done.

    In our discussion, you’ll hear what the Monday Revolution is and why it’s’ called that. We explore David’s practical tips to making business more effective. We discuss risk management, how to empower staff, the benefits of asking the right questions in the right way, the importance of giving people agency and how to make better decisions.

    To learn more about David and the Monday Revolution, visit https://themondayrevolution.com/

    On the show, we also talk about:

    James Clear's 'Atomic Habits' — https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habits

    Professor Daniel Kahneman - https://kahneman.scholar.princeton.edu/

  • How can lying earn you millions? If you’re an actor and good at impersonating people, then the answer is that you become a corporate spy.

    That’s the unexpected career path followed by my guest Robert Kerbeck, whose memoir ‘Ruse: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street!’ tells the story of how it happened. And on this episode, he joins me to talk about some of the behavioural dynamics behind his fascinating life.

    Robert didn’t grow up wanting to become a spy. He just wanted out of the family car business. An Ivy League education in his back pocket, he had a more noble profession in mind—to be an actor. But to support himself, he needed a survival job. And before he knew it, while his acting peers were waiting tables, he was beginning his apprenticeship as a corporate spy.

    In our discussion, we explore:
    The world of corporate espionage and the common nature of the activity is;

    The techniques used by Robert to gain access to privileged information, including 'ruse calls’ and social engineering;

    How the growth of compliance functions played a role in Robert’s infiltration strategies;

    The methods Robert used to gain trust and information as a researcher;

    The very human reason that drove Robert to give up his role as a spy;

    The challenges posed by AI and deep-fake technology;

    What organisations and individuals can do to protect themsevels from ruse calls
    and much, much more.

    To find out more about Robert and 'Ruse: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street!’ visit www.robertkerbeck.com

  • Why can senior leaders — usually in post as a result of experience and expertise — often make mistakes? The answer might seem counterintuitive; it’s precisely because of their experience and expertise that this can happen. How that happens and what we can do to mitigate it, the subject of this epsiode.

    My guest is Dr Constance Dierickx, who is also known as the Decision Doctor. She’s also the authr of a new book called ‘Meta Leadership: How To See What Others Don’t And Make Great Decisions’. In her book and her work, Constance explores how congitive biases can impact sneior leader decision-making and what they can do to mitigate this.

    What applies to senior leaders also applies to the trest of us..

    Discussion topics

    In our discussion, we explore:
    Constance’s career and interest in the field of decision-making, including how she became known as The Decision Doctor and the work that she does with Senior Leaders;

    How meta-analysis and metacognition and how they can be used to help leaders make better decisions;

    The role of our default thinking patterns and instincts in making decisions and how our past experience shapes how we perceive the importance of new information;

    The significance of empathy in shaping decision-making skills; andHow tensions and differences in perspective between senior management and boards can impact decision-makingResources
    For more information on Constance, her work and books, visit https://constancedierickx.com/. There you’ll also find a free meta-leadership self-assessment.

    To read her HBR article entitled ‘What-senior-executives-can-do-when-the-board-meddles’: https://hbr.org/2019/07/what-senior-executives-can-do-when-the-board-meddles

  • Why is some software a real pain to use? How does it happen, and what can we do to make it not happen?

    On this episode, I’m speaking with Sebastian Lees, an experienced software developer with a keen interest in making things more human-centric. We often think of computers as making our lives easier and reducing human risk. Yet, poor design and a lack of thinking about the humans that will use it can actually increase rather than decrease human risk.

    In our discussion, amongst other things, we explore:
    The concept of 'human OS' in software development and how understanding the human psychological component is essential in creating effective and user-friendly software systems;

    The importance of balancing innovation and user comfort when updating software interfaces, using the evolution of Microsoft Office’s ribbon interface as a case study;

    The concept of affordance; how users often employ products in ways not originally intended by the developers, and how this can influence software design:The impact of seemingly minor tweaks to software on efficiency and user satisfaction, highlighting the importance of tailoring software to the users' habits and preferences;

    The critical role of smart process management in mitigating risks in software development illustrated through the case study of the 2012 Knight Capital failure.

    The influence of Nassim Taleb's ideas on software development approach and the application of his concepts, such as anti-fragility and survivorship bias in the field.

    The story of the Fat Tony's community, a group inspired by a character from Taleb's books, demonstrating the potential of small ideas to create significant impact.
    For more on Seb, including links to Fat Tony’s and his social media accounts: https://sebs.website/

    For more on Nassim Taleb: https://www.fooledbyrandomness.com/

    To see the Malicious Compliance Thread on Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MaliciousCompliance/

  • What is trickle-down safety? On this episode, I’m finding out with two safety specialists who help me to explroe what it means and why it’s relevant to other fields. By safety, I mean the kind that saves people’s lives on building sites,not the cyber kind.

    My guests are James MacPherson and Elisa Lynch.

    James is a safety professional who works across multiple industries, including manufacturing and construction. He operates his own consultancy called Risk Fluent and also runs an app called Risk Assessor. Additionally, he manages a community for safety people and hosts a podcast named Rebranding Safety His work revolves around safety and risk management, and he is passionate about discussing and challenging the current safety standards and practices in businesses.

    Find James on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmacpherson1/

    Elisa is also a safety professional with about a decade's experience, predominantly in construction safety. She is based in West Cork, Ireland. She co-hosts a podcast called Speak! , where she and her co-host Crystal Danbury discuss various safety-related topics. As you'll hear on the show, Elisa is credited with coining the term 'trickle down safety', a concept that compares how safety standards and regulations from larger companies can impose burdensome requirements on small businesses. She is an advocate for creating safety standards that are more fitting and less stressful for small businesses.

    Find Elisa on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/elisalynch/

    The podcast on which I first heard James talk about 'Trickle Down Safety' was the Slice podcast which you'll find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRwjFV3YhCw

    Show contents

    On the show, we explore topics that include:
    'Trickle down safety' concept and its impact on small businesses

    The pressure and stress imposed by larger companies on smaller businesses through burdensome safety standards and regulations

    The disproportionate effects of health and safety regulations on different businesses

    The ineffectiveness of one-size-fits-all approaches in safety regulations

    The concept of 'productive procrastination' and its impact on problem-solving in small businesses

    Barriers in academic research accessibility due to paywalls nad how social media can help break these down

    Risk and safety challenges faced by businesses due to bureaucratic issues

    Risk management and societal acceptance of risk levels in various industries

    Challenges and frustrations encountered in safety training within businesses.

  • What we can learn about customer service and being more human from the fire service?

    On this episode, I’m speaking with David Wales, who used to work in the fire and rescue service and has now switched to focus on product design and customer service.

    In his role in the fire and rescue service, David wanted to understand why people didn’t always do the things that they were told. For example, rushing into dangerous situations to rescue pets or laptops.

    What this reinforced is something that we all intuitively know; there’s a gap between the theory of what people should do and the realities of what they actually do. That means the advice people receive is often not helpful for the realities they’re facing. What makes sense to the fire service, in theory, might not match the realities of people’s personal experiences.
    That led him to a career in looking at customer experience, where the human touch is equally important.

    On the episode, we explore:
    David’s career from being a firefighter to understanding the human touch in product design and customer service;how human behaviour plays a vital role in crisis situations and the importance of tailoring safety messages to individual circumstances;

    risk communication and the importance of personalisation in organisations;

    how emotions significantly influence customer experiences and the challenges in achieving customer-centricity;

    the difficulties faced by organisations in achieving customer-centricity;

    how companies often choose solutions for us, not with us, creating an impersonal system, and how a change of focus could lead to a more pleasant customer experience.Links to topics we discussed:

    The Edelmann Trust Barometer: https://www.edelman.com/trust/trust-barometer

    Elton John’s donation of a piano to St Pancras Station in London: https://stpancras.com/news-events/sir-elton-john-s-piano

    John Legend playing the piano at St Pancras: https://www.standard.co.uk/showbiz/celebrity-news/john-legend-surprises-londoners-with-impromptu-performance-at-st-pancras-a3501956.html

    Find David on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidatsharedaim/


    Shared Aim, David’s company: https://www.sharedaim.co.uk/

  • How can we be better at explaining things? On the 250th episode of the podcast, I’m joined by a very special guest who has made explaining an art form and has just published a book called ‘The Art of Explanation’.

    That guest is Ros Atkins. He’s a BBC News presenter and the BBC’s Analysis Editor. Ros is best known for his explainer videos, which, since 2019, have become a global phenomenon with vast audiences on social media and on the BBC's digital, TV and radio channels.

    His new book — full title ‘The Art of Explanation: How to Communicate with Clarity and Confidence’ — is part autobiography, part history of his explainer videos and a practical guide to how we can all be better at explaining things.

    I’ve been a fan of Ros’ videos and presentation style since first discovering them a few years ago. Not only have they made me smarter about the world, but the techniques he uses are engaging, informative and entertaining. So much so, in fact, that I’ve often found myself recommending to my clients that they watch them as masterclasses in how to make complicated subjects interesting and compelling.

    Key talking points:

    In our discussion, we explore:
    the importance of explanation and why we need to be better at it;

    the genesis of the explainer videos;

    the techniques Ros uses to make his videos;

    how Ros generates his ideas, sometimes taking inspiration from the most unexpected of places;

    lessons about how we can all be better at explaining things, not just at work but also in our personal lives;

    how Ros uses an entrepreneurial and collaborative approach to get projects off the ground;

    Texting Keith Olbermann, a very unusual BBC podcast that Ros recorded with his wife Sarah and US sports presenter Keith Olbermann.

    The 50:50 project, a highly successful initiative to support diverse representation in the BBC’s journalism, which Ros started in the newsroom in 2017 and has now spread across the BBC and beyond;and much more.

    ‘The Art of Explanation: How to Communicate with Clarity and Confidence’

    To find out more about Ros’ book: geni.us/TAOEBOOK

    Keith Jarret Köln Concert

    Ros mentions a story about jazz musician Keith Jarrett and a concert Jarrett played in Köln, Germany. As he tells the story — which links to the Inheritance Tracks podcast below — Ros says that we must fact-check it.

    True to his reputation, after we’d finisjhed recording, he sent me this NPR link which appears to confirm the story: https://www.npr.org/transcripts/719557642

    This piqued my curiosity, and I did further research and discovered that a reporter from — where else?! — the BBC – had looked into the Köln concert story. Not only did he confirm the facts, but he also managed to interview the concert promoter in question. You can hear the story here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p00ldwyp

    You can hear the Köln concert — part 3 features on the Spotify playlist below — here: https://open.spotify.com/album/0I8vpSE1bSmysN2PhmHoQg?si=UkPi_oTXR7Grrrwc403Fxg

    ‘Art of Explanation’ playlist

    The Spotify playlist that features tracks from the book and podcast jointly curated by Ros and me: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/27ku9laOh8IantyEEdhTQa?si=fa1f8ca6d3cc41d1

    Texting Keith Olbermann podcast

    You’ll find Ros’ podcast ‘Texting Keith Olbermann’ here and on all podcast platforms: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p071wbr5

    Inheritance Tracks

    Hear Ros talking about Keith Jarrett’s Köln concert and Steely Dan’s Aja https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0g6c5bz

    The ‘Ros Atkins on…’ series

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p095rjk1/episodes/player

    My absolute favourite of Ros’ Explainer videos is Ros Atkins on…The Number 10 Christmas Party: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-59514568

  • What is livescribing? On this episode, I speak to an artist with a unique creative talent. Hannah Williams is the founder of Scribble Inc. and her talent is that she can summarise presentations and discussions in beautiful pieces of art that fuse words and images. You'll find links to examples below.

    I met Hannah at a conference called Speak to the Human, an annual event, organised by Acteon Communication. You can read more about it here.

    Hannah livescribed all the presentations and sessions that day, including mine.
    You can see a video of her in action here and the live scribe of my presentation here:

    The reason I wanted to get Hannah onto the show is because she has some fascinating perspectives from having spent hours observing humans and summarising their thoughts and ideas. Her lens on people can teach us a lot about human risk.

    In our discussion, we explore:
    how Hannah came to become a livescribe after realising she had a talent for it;the role of live scribing in facilitating personal expression, fostering inclusion, and promoting understanding;how restrictions can enhance creativity, and how, counterintuitively, controlling the environment can stimulate creative flow;Hannah’s transitioned from being an artist to entrepreneur and how she balances her business decisions with personal values;the power of visual representation in communicating energy facilitating self-reflection and impriving our memory;

    and much, much more.

    You can find out more about Hannah and Scribble Inc and see examples of her work on the Scribble Inc website.

  • Why are we so reliant on models, how can they lead us astray, and what can we do about it?

    On this episode, I’m exploring models. Of the mathematical kind, not the fashion or toy kind. Models interest me because so much of our world is run by them. Many of the things we take for granted in the 21st century have models either running or helping to run them.

    When they work well, they enable things to happen that wouldn’t otherwise. But when they go wrong – as we’ve seen in the banking industry — there are serious consequences. The Human Risk angle on models is that models are designed, commissioned and used by people. As we know from people who blindly follow their GPS unit and drive into a river, we can often assume the models must be right. But what’s right in theory might not be in practice. The real world is often complex, and models don’t always capture nuances.

    My guest is Dr. Erica Thompson. She’s the author of a fascinating book called ‘Escape from Model land: How mathematical models can lead us astray and what we can do about it’.

    Erica is an Associate Professor of Modelling for Decision Making at University College Londons ’s Department of Science, Technology, Engineering and Public Policy. She’s also a Fellow of the London Mathematical Laboratory, where she leads the research programme on Inference from Models, and a Visiting Senior Fellow at the LSE Data Science Institute. So, she’s very highly qualified to help us explore what models are, why they can go wrong and what we can do about it.

    On the show, we talk about:
    the use of models in decision-making across various contexts such as climate, insurance, finance, and economic risk assessment';

    the limitations and complexities of models, particularly when predicting the physical impacts of climate change over the 21st century;

    the importance of understanding and acknowledging the uncertainties and potential risks in manipulating models;the significance of diversity in models and the concept of maximizing model diversity for robust and accurate inference;the challenges of shifting to new models that can effectively represent different values and judgments and the difficulty in changing the system when vested interests and incentives are not aligned;the importance of trust and the need for experts to be deeply embedded within society and responsive to its values; andthe role of science in shaping our optimism and understanding of challenges and the need for a more nuanced viewpoint about science and society.
    To learn more about Erica, visit her personal website: https://www.ericathompson.co.uk/

    For more on her book 'Escape from Model Land', visit https://www.ericathompson.co.uk/books/

    To see episodes of the show you might have missed, visit www.humanriskpodcast.com

  • What can music teach us about human behaviour? What impact is remote and hybrid working having on employee conduct? How might we misjudge the risks posed by AI?

    If these seem like a broad range of topics that have little in common, then you’re right and wrong. You’re right that they’re broad, but you’re wrong that they have little in common. My guest, Dr. Roger Miles, is a friend of the show — he’s been on it before (links to those episodes below) — and they’re all relevant to his work and interests.

    Since I was recording at the world-famous Abbey Road studios in London, I thought having music fan and musician Roger in the studio would be a good idea. Not just to hear from him about music but also to catch up on what he’s been doing and hear his insights on current affairs and recent trends.

    For more about Roger, visit his website: https://www.drrmiles.com/about

    His books: https://www.koganpage.com/authors/roger-miles

    To hear the previous times Roger has been on the show:
    Roger on Conduct Risk: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/dr-roger-miles-on-conduct/

    Roger on Conduct Risk under COVID: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/human-risk-webinar-recording-conduct/

    During the show, we talk about:

    The Barclays Bank ‘OccupEye’ tracking software: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-18/barclays-puts-in-sensors-to-see-which-bankers-are-at-their-desks

    Hannah Arendt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Arendt

    Professor Barry Rider: https://www.jesus.cam.ac.uk/people/barry-rider-obe-phd-lld

    The Center for Human Technology: https://www.humanetech.com/

    The famous train accident in Paris where the train literally left the station; https://www.midnight-trains.com/post/the-railway-disaster-at-the-gare-montparnasse

    The VIP killed by the train he was there to launch: https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/from-the-archive-blog/2011/may/06/newspapers-national-newspapers2?

    The FInancial Markets Standards Board Behavioural Cluster Analysis: https://fmsb.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/BCA_v32_1.pdf

    ‘Metaphors We Live By’ by George Lakoff and Mark Johnson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphors_We_Live_By

    Diane Vaughan’s book on the Challenger disaster ‘The Challenger Launch Decision’ - https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo22781921.html

    The review of conduct in London’s Metropolitan Police Force: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cw9d1pgzlyvt

    The corporate violation tracker: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cw9d1pgzlyvt

    The British Post Office Scandal: https://www.postofficescandal.uk/ You can hear Nick Wallis talk about his book on the scandal on this show: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/nick-wallis-on-the-great-post-office-scandal/

    ‘The Blunders of Our Governments’ by Anthony King and Ivor Crewe: https://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/books/The-Blunders-of-Our-Governments/Anthony-King/9781780746180

  • How well do we really know those who are closest to us? That’s the question that is behind ‘The Wolf Hunt’, a new novel by Israeli author Ayelet Gundar-Goshen. She's my guest on this very special episode.

    In a first for the show, I’m interviewing the author of a piece of fiction. Ayelet isn’t just a writer. She’s also a clinical psychologist, which informs both her content and the way in which she writes her narratives.

    The Wolf Hunt is the story of a mother who begins to suspect her teenage son of committing a terrible crime. Lilach, the main protagonist, seems to have it all: a beautiful home in the heart of Silicon Valley, a community of other Israeli immigrants, a happy marriage and a close relationship with her teenage son, Adam.

    But when a local synagogue is brutally attacked, her shy, reclusive son is compelled to join a self-defence class taught by a former Israeli Special Forces officer. Then, a Black teenager dies at a house party, and rumours begin to circulate that Adam and his new friends might have been involved.

    As scrutiny begins to invade Lilach's peaceful home and her family’s stability is threatened, will her own fears be the greatest danger of all?

    It’s a fascinating and engaging storyline. And, as you’ll hear, it was inspired by a simple question Ayelet asked herself when she was dropping her daughter off at school.

    In our discussion, we explore:


    Ayelet's journey as a writer and what inspires her to write;

    the psychological themes that underpin her work and how her personal experiences, both as a psychologist but also as a mother and individual, shape her narratives;

    The particular experiences and stories she’s been told that led to The Wolf Hunt;

    How literature serves as a universal mirror reflecting our experiences and biasesAnd so much more.

    For more on The Wolf Hunt, visit https://pushkinpress.com/books/the-wolf-hunt/.
    It's available in all major bookstores.

    To read articles she's written for Time magazine: https://time.com/author/ayelet-gundar-goshen-2/


    Since this is the first fiction writer I've had on the show, let me know what you think about the idea of doing more of this type of interview. If you like it, should it be part of the main show or a separate one? If you don't, why not!

  • Why are major projects so often delayed and over budget? On this episode, I'm speaking to Bent Flyvbjerg, the author of 'How Big Things Get Done'.

    Bent s a Danish economic geographer. He was the First BT Professor and Inaugural Chair of Major Programme Management at Oxford University's Saïd Business School and is the Villum Kann Rasmussen Professor and Chair of Major Program Management at the IT University of Copenhagen

    On the show, we discuss:
    The pivotal role of human risk in the execution of mega-projects, ranging from small tasks like kitchen remodelling to monumental endeavours like bridge construction.

    The significant influence of cognitive and power biases on the success or failure of these large-scale undertakings;

    The importance of simplicity in project governance for smooth execution;

    The role of data collection and storytelling in the success of mega-projects and how availability bias can shape perceptions;

    The unique challenges of conducting research in China, particularly in terms of data collection;

    The concept of human risk as a consistent thread in mega-project management;

    The strategy of reference star forecasting for making more accurate predictions by collecting data from similar projects;

    Warren Buffett's views on compound interest and how initial delays in a project can compound over time, leading to further delays;

    The concept of 'fat tails' and its impact on risk management in mega-projects;

    The importance of recognizing intelligent infrastructure principles when allocating infrastructure spending.

    You'll find Bent's faculty page here: https://www.ox.ac.uk/news-and-events/find-an-expert/professor-bent-flyvbjerg

    His book 'How Big Things Get Done': https://sites.prh.com/how-big-things-get-done-book

    Find Bent on Twitter/X account: https://twitter.com/BentFlyvbjerg?

    His LinkedIn profile: https://linkedin.com/in/flyvbjerg/

    Links to his Papers: http://bit.ly/3YxVZVW

    Bent's Speaker profile: http://bit.ly/41sd5W9

    Bent's Consulting profile: http://bit.ly/3kclBbH


  • Why drives people to commit fraud? What turns people into whistleblowers? How does fraud impact victims? On this episode, I'm exploring the scams, stories and secrets behind fraud.

    My guest is Dr. Kelly Richmond Pope. She's the Dr. Barry Jay Epstein Endowed Professor of Forensic Accounting at DePaul University in Chicago and a nationally recognized expert in risk, forensic accounting, and white-collar crime research.

    Her expertise lies in understanding and identifying financial fraud risk within financial statements assessing corporate culture and compliance systems designed to confront internal control challenges.

    She’s also the author of a new book called ‘Fool Me Once’, a book that, in her words, "explores what makes perpetrators tick, victims so gullible, and whistleblowers so morally righteous".

    It also forces the person reading it to consider their own behaviour because, as Kelly highlights, we are all capable of committing fraud.

    In our discussion, we explore:
    how she became interested in fraud and the human factors behind it;why people commit fraud and the fact that we are all capable of fraudwhat drives whistleblowers and how not all whistleblowers have the same motivation;the impact on victims of fraud;how story-telling can help to reduce fraud and make people more aware of it;the importance of catching small incidents of fraud to prevent larger ones;how technology enables — and helps prevent — fraud;whether fraud is always a bad thing

    and so much more...

    To find out more about Kelly and 'Fool Me Once' visit https://www.kellyrichmondpope.com/

    To read sample chapters of my new book 'Humanizing Rules - Bringing Behavioural Science to Ethics & Compliance' - www.humanizingrules.com

    If you enjoyed this episode, do also listen to the episodes featuring Kelly Paxton, who specialises in Pink Collar Crime (PCC), a form of fraud:

    Kelly's first appearance on the show in 2020 talking about PCC: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/kelly-paxton-on-pink-collar-1/

    Kelly's second appearance in 2021 talking about how COVID has impacted PCC: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/kelly-paxton-on-pink-collar/

  • How can we design incentive programmes that deliver the right outcomes and avoid the wrong ones? We're all familiar with teh idea of rewards to encourage good behaviour and punishment to deter bad behaviour. Incentive programmes are common because they're effective. But they often come with unintended consequences.

    On this episode, I'm speaking to a former colleague of mine, Bruce Rigal. He began his career in Investment Banking — where we worked together — before, like me, moving into Behavioural Science. As part of his role in banking, Bruce was responsible for the development of an incentive program within a bank, making him the ideal person to talk to about the challenges of developing ones that will deliver the right outcomes.

    In our discussion, we talk about:

    Professor Elke Weber: https://psych.princeton.edu/people/elke-weber

    Professor Sam Peltzman: https://www.chicagobooth.edu/faculty/emeriti/sam-peltzman

    The Peltzman Effect: https://tradestops.com/blog/the-peltzman-effect-how-safety-perception-increases-risk/

    (Original paper here:https://www.jstor.org/stable/1830396)

    The impact of rewards on intrinsic motivation in children: https://bingschool.stanford.edu/news/mark-lepper-intrinsic-motivation-extrinsic-motivation-and-process-learning

    To connect with Bruce: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-rigal-6799a545/

    For more on my book 'Humanizing Rules: Bringing Behavioural Science to Ethics & Compliance' and to read the first few chapters for free: www.humanizingrules.com

  • How can we be more in the moment in meetings, conversations and presentations? On this episode, I'm speaking to communications expert and comedian Neil Mullarkey.

    In his new book 'In The Moment', Neil explores how we can use the ideas that underpin improv comedy to improve our confidence, communication and creativity.

    In our discussion, we explore:

    how Neil came to work in Improv Comedy, how Mike Myers inspired his career and why he enjoys improvisation;how that translates into working in business to build creativity;the need for structures such as rules, methodologies and processes in order for creativity to be able to flourish;the difference between Newtonian and Darwinian dynamics in the workplace;lessons from the pandemic about working practices;And so much more...


    To find out more about:

    Neil: https://neilmullarkey.com/

    In The Moment: https://neilmullarkey.com/inthemomentbook

    The Comedy Store Players: https://comedystoreplayers.com/

    For more on my new book, 'Humanizing Rules: Bringing Behaviorual Science to Ethics & Compliance' and read the first few chapters for free: www.humanizing.rules.com

    If you enjoyed this episode, then I also recommend listening to this episode where I spoke with comedy writer Paul Dornan: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-dornan-on-being-truly-funny/

  • What happens when you put three Behavioural Science gurus in a world-famous music studio? On this episode, we find out as my guests are Paul Craven, Rory Sutherland and Gerald Ashley, who join me for part three of a three-part series recorded at the world-famous Abbey Road Studios.

    Before listening to it, I highly recommend listening to Parts One and Two, which you’ll find here.

    Part One 🎧 👉 https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley-paul-craven-at-abbey-road-part-one/

    Part Two 🎧 👉 https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley-paul-craven-at-abbey-road-part-two/

    Links to some of the topics discussed on the show, in the order in which they feature:

    British Rock band Def Leppard - https://www.defleppard.com/
    Hear some of their greatest hits here -https://open.spotify.com/artist/6H1RjVyNruCmrBEWRbD0VZ?si=L0TAqQ7iRgeGmkka7JpywQ

    Professor Paul Bloom's book 'Against Empathy' - https://www.harpercollins.com/products/against-empathy-paul-bloom?variant=32122194853922

    Transport for Humans, the book Rory co-authored with Pete Dyson - https://www.transportforhumans.com/

    HS2 (HighSpeed Rail 2) - https://www.hs2.org.uk/

    You can hear Pete talking about it on this show here:
    🎧 👉 https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/pete-dyson-on-making-transport-more-human/

    The story of IBM Watson in Boca Raton - https://www.bocahistory.org/ibm-boca-raton

    Argos, the store Rory described as "the UK's equivalent of Amazon" - www.argos.co.uk

    Paul's music recommendation: Bob Dylan's album ‘Oh Mercy’ https://open.spotify.com/album/18ue4s9PsV3WBw7kkzD689?si=gpwavscaRTChwFVaEwf5ig

    Gerald's music recommendation: Rolling Stones — Exile on Main Street double album
    https://open.spotify.com/album/5U4dnRZsfW8NmwBBkELFPhsi=PiBMVL1VSwGVy3QrZokuOg

    Rory’s music recommendation: The Seekers — I’ll Never Find Another You https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPT9NWK0J64&t=0s


    If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more:

    Rory on his own talking about ‘Compliance’: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-on-compliance/

    Gerald on his own talking about ‘Uncertainty’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-on-uncertainty/

    Paul on his own talking about ‘Magic, Money & The Mind’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-craven-on-magic-money/

    Rory and Gerald Part One talking about ‘Networks’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley/

    Rory and Gerald Part Two talking about ‘Prosilience’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-rory-sutherland/

    Paul and Gerald Part One ‘Statistics, Spreadsheets & Scams’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-paul-craven/

    Paul and Gerald Part Two ‘Context, Consequences & Changeability’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-craven-gerald-ashley/

    Rory and Paul Part One ‘Alchemy & Magic’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-paul-craven-on-alchemy-magic/

    To find out more about my book ‘Humanizing Rules: Bringing Behavioural Science to Ethics & Compliance’ and to read the first few chapters for free: www.humanizingrules.com

  • Why do some people become ‘super spreaders’ for fashions and ideas? Why might an acceptance letter from a top University be worth more than a degree from the same establishment? These and many more questions are answered in this episode.

    My guests are Behavioural Science gurus Paul Craven, Rory Sutherland and Gerald Ashley and this is Part Two of a three part series recorded at the world-famous Abbey Road Studios.

    Before listening to it, I highly recommend listening to Part One, which you’ll find here.
    🎧 👉 https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley-paul-craven-at-abbey-road-part-one/

    Links to some of the topics discussed on the show, in the order in which they feature:

    Superdry clothing - https://corporate.superdry.com/about-superdry/our-history/

    Typhoid Mary, the Superspreader - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

    The book on fund manager Neil Woodford - https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/55354898

    Ogilvy’s The Pipe recruitment processs - https://ipa.co.uk/knowledge/ipa-blog/ogilvy-uk-s-apprenticeship-pipe-line

    Psychologist Dr Iain McGilchrist - https://channelmcgilchrist.com/

    Francis Fulford - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8PymL8PEyY

    The story of Nashville Hot Chicken - https://www.mashed.com/140853/the-untold-truth-of-nashville-hot-chicken/

    Jules Goddard's talk at Nudgestock - https://youtu.be/oNlzl37GLdA

    If you enjoyed this episode and want to hear more:

    Rory on his own talking about ‘Compliance’: https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-on-compliance/

    Gerald on his own talking about ‘Uncertainty’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-on-uncertainty/

    Paul on his own talking about ‘Magic, Money & The Mind’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-craven-on-magic-money/

    Rory and Gerald Part One talking about ‘Networks’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-gerald-ashley/

    Rory and Gerald Part Two talking about ‘Prosilience’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-rory-sutherland/

    Paul and Gerald Part One ‘Statistics, Spreadsheets & Scams’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/gerald-ashley-paul-craven/

    Paul and Gerald Part Two ‘Context, Consequences & Changeability’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/paul-craven-gerald-ashley/

    Rory and Paul Part One ‘Alchemy & Magic’ - https://www.humanriskpodcast.com/rory-sutherland-paul-craven-on-alchemy-magic/

    To find out more about my book ‘Humanizing Rules: Bringing Behavioural Science to Ethics & Compliance’ and to read the first few chapters for free: www.humanizingrules.com