Episodios
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Sit down with Jonathan Youssef for a compelling conversation with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett, authors of The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is. Why It's Destructive. How to Respond. This discussion examines the pervasive and unsettling movement of faith deconstruction sweeping churches today. Whether it's affecting your loved ones, straining relationships, or stirring doubts within you, this episode provides crucial understanding and guidance.
Together, we will try to understand the core aspects of the Christian deconstruction movement, its origins, the meaning of deconstruction hashtags like #exvangelical, and why it attracts so many people, particularly those disenchanted with traditional church teachings.
Alisa and Tim offer strategies for thoughtfully and empathetically engaging with those questioning or abandoning their faith in Christ, emphasizing responses grounded in a biblical worldview.
Whether you are seeking to support a loved one in turmoil, understand the dramatic spiritual changes around you, or find answers to your spiritual doubts, Alisa and Tim provide valuable insights and answers that promise to enlighten, challenge, and encourage.
Listen and gain tools and confidence to address deconstruction with clarity and love, ensuring your faith and relationships can withstand the challenges of these transformative times.
ALISA CHILDERS is a popular speaker and the author of Another Gospel? and Live Your Truth and Other Lies. She has been published at the Gospel Coalition, Crosswalk, the Stream, For Every Mom, Decision magazine, and the Christian Post.
TIM BARNETT is a speaker and apologist for Stand to Reason (STR). His online presence on Red Pen Logic with Mr. B helps people assess flawed thinking using good thinking, reaching millions monthly through multiple social media platforms.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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TRANSCRIPT:
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 246: The Deconstruction of Christianity with Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett.
Jonathan: Today, we have quite a special situation. We have two of my favorite guests that weâve had in the past, Alisa Childers and Tim Barnett. And they have teamed up and have written a book together, The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why Itâs Destructive and How To Respond. Thank you guys so much for taking the time. Weâre all across the nation and different nations here. Thank yâall for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.
Alisa: Itâs great to be back with you.
Tim: Yeah, itâs good to see you.
Jonathan: Well, I think before we jump in weâve Alisa and I and Tim and I, weâve separately had conversations around this area, but I love the way you break down your book into these three parts: Exvangelical, Deconstruction, and Hope. But just again for those who are new to the terminology, letâs define deconstruction and separate it and define exvangelical, and then weâll talk about the reasons for the writing of the book.
Alisa: Which one you want to take, Tim, exvangelical or deconstruction?
Jonathan: You each get one.
Tim: All right. Iâll start with deconstruction. You know this is a tough definition to nail down. In fact, this took quite some research and quite some time. In fact, I actually changed my mind on how I was using the term. At least initially when I started teaching in deconstruction a few years ago, I thought there was a way that we could use the word deconstruction in a healthy way and there was a way we could use it in an unhealthy way. And we were seeing this kind of thing happening, especially on social media. Youâd have people like Lecrae or John Mark Holmer or other notable evangelicals using deconstruction as a healthy way, hereâs a good way to do deconstruction.
Tim: Thatâs right. And on the other hand, thereâs a whole lot of this other stuff that's very unhealthy. That's how we originally thought until we did serious research into what's going on in this deconstruction space, especially on social media where weâre seeing a movement or an explosion. And what we saw there was that there isnât anything healthy. In fact, there are defining characteristics of the deconstruction explosion that are unbiblical and just completely wrongheaded.
So at the end of the day, where we landed on thisâand again, we say this is the hardest sentence we wrote in the book, but hereâs where we landed on our definition of deconstruction: Itâs a postmodern process of rethinking your faith without requiring Scripture as a standard. And all those words are important in that sentence. So itâs a process, but itâs a very specific kind of process. Itâs a postmodern process. Whereas where you would think (this is what many claim) is that they are on a search for truth, what weâre finding is that itâs not really about truthâin fact, by postmodern we mean that there isnât a goal of truth; thereâs actually a denial of objective truth, that objective truth cannot be known.
And so thereâs that on the one hand. On the other hand, you have this rejection of Scripture as an authority. And so when we put those things together, we think these are the defining characteristics of what deconstruction is all about. And we can kind of go into more detail and give some examples of where weâve seen that, but that's a starting point.
Alisa: Right and then the exvangelical hashtag is often used synonymously with and at least in conjunction with that deconstruction hashtag. And itâs a little bit of a tricky hashtag because it doesnât simply mean, at face value, no longer evangelical. But itâs not like you have people who were raised Presbyterian and they become some kind of more liturgical Anglican or something and they use the ex. They are not using the exvangelical hashtag for that. What weâre seeing with the exvangelical hashtag is that, first of all, itâs very difficult to define what evangelical is. And that's kind of a word like deconstruction that's defined in a hundred different ways.
So thereâs the Bevingtonâs Quadrilateral that characterizes the evangelical movement under four pillars of personal conversion, emphasis on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, biblical authority, and evangelism. And yet, if you ask people in the deconstruction hashtag what is evangelical, those beliefs are in the background for sure, but what they primarily see is God, guns and Trump. Itâs what is perceived in their minds to be this unholy alliance between evangelicals and the political right. And so itâs all kind of mashed together, along with things like spiritual abuse and purity culture and conservative politics. Itâs all kind of this ball that all gets kind of mixed together and then it all gets thrown out as exvangelical.
And so in some cases theyâre conflating evangelical with the historic Christian gospel, and in other cases, they might actually be throwing out some cultural things that are Americanized that arenât necessarily a part of the gospel. And it can be kind of like a mix of both. But itâs important like when Tim talked about the shift of authority, itsâ like the only thing that matters for the exvangelical and deconstruction is that they are leaving behind what they perceive to be toxic beliefs. And so as best as I can analyze are itâs any belief outside of yourself that you would be asked to submit to, surrender to, kneel to that is not necessarily something that resonates with you inside.
Jonathan: Interesting. So youâre the ultimate authority, which goes to the deconstruction definition of Scripture being the authority.
Alisa: I do think it boils down to that, yes.
Jonathan: Do you find this is a uniquely American phenomenon? I donât even know if phenomenon is the right word to use there.
Tim: That's a really good question. I think that thereâs a few reasons why weâre seeing this in particular in North America. Itâs happening in Canada, too, not just the U.S. I think that weâre seeing a culture that's dominated by a philosophy of relativism on the one hand and then on the other you have this kind of explosion of social media within the last decade or so. And I think bringing those two things together in particularâ
And then maybe a third thing, and that is the American church and how we have, I think, neglected the life of the Christian mind. We used to say the church teaches what we believe really well but not why we believe it. So us apologists, weâre trying to train up the church in why we believe these things. But to be honest, when you look at the research now that's coming out in the last couple of years, people who identify as evangelical, I think it was in our book we say 42 or 43 percent of U.S., so Americans, who identify as evangelical do not believe that Jesus is god. They think Heâs just a good moral teacher. Hold on a second! So these people identify as evangelical but theyâre not Christian. I mean, this is crazy!
So you have, on the one hand, Christians, people who are professing to be Christians because, hey, I was born in America or I was born in Canada. That's the default, right. Itâs like in your genetics or something. Yeah, so you have that on the one hand, so thereâs no real understanding or foundation for what real, orthodox Christianity is. Then you have this dominant culture, I mean, itâs coming from every direction, this idea of relativism. Itâs literally the water that many of your young people especially are swimming in, and they donât even know theyâre wet.
And then of course you have social media, this platform now, where I have access to, I mean, the world. I have access to memes and TikToks and these, for many, they think these are compelling arguments. I canât tell you how many times Iâm sitting here at my desk and I get a message coming in. Itâs a meme or a TikTok video that someone sends me and says, âHey, can you respond to this? I donât know what to say. I donât know how to respond.â
And I watch the video or I read the meme and I think, Really? This is not a good argument. Itâs not even close. Usually, itâs not even an argument. And so when you bring all those things together, I think that makes America susceptible to the deconstruction movement for sure.
Alisa: thereâs also the Trump element in the American version of deconstruction. Itâs just such a huge part of that that is so uniquely American. But as Tim said, I think deconstruction is happening everywhere. I know progressive Christianity is happening. Even in the Middle East Iâve gotten emails of people wanting my book to be translated into Farsi because itâs even coming into the Middle East. So where there is progressive Christianity, there is dn. But I suppose itâs just taking on maybe a different type of flavor here in America.
Jonathan: Well, and even the Trump effect has ripple effects around the world to where people in foreign nations see Trump and think, Oh, well, heâs their definition of Christian.
Letâs talk about the prevalence. Because I think there are some who think this is just happening out in large cities or this is not affecting everyday people. There can be a disconnect to just how much influence this is having. And it can be people who are watching and consuming these things that arenât even talking about it with their family because they know how the family will react when thereâs genuine questions and doubt. So tell us a little bit about what youâre seeing with the prevalence of both of these concepts entering into homes.
Alisa: Well, I think weâre in a different world now, so this is an interesting anecdotal piece to this. When I go out and speak Iâll often ask an audience, âHow many of you have heard the word deconstruction in the context of faith?â And the older the audience, the fewer the people have even heard of it. And yet, when I go speak to students itâs 90 percent. But it blows my mind. Even at womenâs conferences where women ⊠the ages are 20 to maybe 60, 70, you might have 20 percent raise their hand that theyâve even heard of the concept.
And so what I mean by weâre in a different world is decades ago you had to get a book deal. There was major exposure with ideas. And so I think that there are some of us who are still living in that world and donât realize the prevalence of some of these ideas on social media. For example, we have many posts documented in our book where itâs somebody that nobodyâs ever heard of an probably never will know their name, but their video has millions of views, hundreds of thousands of likes, and if you think about the reach of that versus somebody that you might have seen on TV decades ago or maybe in a Christian bookstore even or in the catalog that they would send out, that's a lot of people. But social media can reach so many people with a message where itâs not even necessarily surrounding a particular personality.
And so I think the prevalence of it is on social media, so someoneâs exposure to it is probably going to be directly related to what types of social media they have and how often they engaging with it.
Tim: And the other element to this, the older folks who have exposure to it, is because they have a loved one, usually a younger loved one, who is going through it and now weâre just, as we label it, this is what it is, deconstruction, they sayâit clicks. Oh, that's what my nephew is going through, or my grandchild or my son or my daughter or whatever. So it does kind of filter up to that older generation. Theyâre seeing the aftermath usually. Itâs like why is my grandson no longer following the Lord? Well, it turns out they went through a process called deconstruction.
Jonathan: Well, and I imagine some of the reactions can be unhelpful, and that's why, again, I think itâs important that books like yours are out there and podcasts and stuff that you guys are producing is out there, so that thereâs a heightened awareness but also a helpful response. Because we do have a response and a calling, but we need to make sure weâre doing it in a right and biblical way.
I wonder if we could come to the origins of this. I know Carl Lawson writes in the foreword in your book about technically the beginning is, when Demas, who fell in love with the world, abandoned Paul and the ministry and the faith. But I mean in this particular area, is it with social media? Was there a particular person or is it just postmodernism in general? Where do you find your origins to these movements?
Tim: Well, itâs true that we could trace this thing past Demas. We can go all the way back to the Garden of Eden, always. But just more recently in the 1960s we see postmodern philosophers like Derrida in particular, who is the father of deconstruction. Now of course, his application of deconstruction was to textbook religion. He argued that objective meaning, objective truth, could not be known, and that there was no actual truth, so the reader could import just as much meaning as an author of a text. And what we traced in our research is we saw there is a connection here.
In fact, we discovered a book by John Caputo, who is a scholar and actually follows Derrida and applies Derridaâs philosophy not just to textbook religion in general, but in fact, to Christianity. And he wants to do this postmodern move even on the words of Jesus. And so he gives application in his book. What would Jesus think about, say, homosexuality today? Well, He would look around the world and see loving, monogamous relationships and He would be affirming. Even though Derrida says, yet, in the first century, no, Paul and Jesus, they had a certain view on this, but weâre going to bring new meaning to the text. In fact, the way Derrida describes this is Derrida says the text actually never arrives at a meaning. In fact, he has this analogy of a postman delivering a letter, and itâs like the letter never arrives at its destination, and in that sense, Christianity has not arrived. There is no set fundamental beliefs that you need to hold toâin fact, they are always changing, never arriving.
So this is kind of the history, and of course thereâs lots of people who donât know who Derrida is, they donât know who John Caputo is, and yet, they are taking a page out of his playbook. They are thinking in terms of that kind of postmodern philosophy as they look out at religion. Itâs not what is actually true corresponds to reality; instead, itâs there is something else going on. Oftentimes, itâs personal preferences are the authority, or maybe theyâre looking at the culture and saying, âYeah, look, the culture is more accepting of sexuality and so we ought to be too.â
Jonathan: Yeah, just like in the days of Noah. Help us understand who are some of the primary voices behind this today? I know we talked about how when youâre on social media it can be a lot of nameless, faceless people who just have an opinion and they want to create an argument or a non-argument that has an effect on people with their emotions. Are there any that are writing or have some influence as, you know, even by way of warning people, hey, be careful of so-and-so because it tends towards this trajectory?
[24:42] Alisa: Well, I would say thereâs, in my mind, and Tim might have some others, but in my mind thereâs one figure in particular that is, in my view, the most influential, although heâs not primarily promoting quote/unquote âdeconstruction,â is Richard Rohr. Richard Rohr, his ideas, his universal Christ worldview, isâInterestingly, when I was researching the coaching and therapy sites, I found all the ones I could find online of people offering services to coach you through deconstruction or even offer you therapy through your deconstructionâand by the way, these therapy and coaching sites are not helping you to remain a Christian; they are not interested in where you land, they just want to help you along your subjective journey.
But even the ones that arenât claiming to be Christians, thereâs always this recommendationâI looked at all the book recommendations, and there is a Richard Rohr book there every single time, even among those that donât claim to be Christians. And so what Rohr has done, I think, is, especially among people who want to retain the title Christian but might be more spiritual but not religious, or some sort of a New Age-y kind of Jesus is more of a mascot kind of thing, Rohr has really given them a worldview to put in place of what theyâve turned down. And he does talk about deconstruction in his book, Universal Christ, and he says itâs like the process of order, disorder, and then reorder.
Well, that sounds good at face value. Youâre taught a certain thing, and then something messes it up and as an adult you have to do some digging and some work and then you reorder. But that's not exactly what heâs talking about. His order stage is what he calls âprivate salvation,â your private salvation project. In other words, Rohr doesnât believe in personal salvation, he believes in universal salvation, heâs a universalist. So heâs saying that's like the kindergarten version of faith, this kind of Christianity where you have personal faith and you have this God of wrath and judgment. All of that just needs to be disordered so that ultimately you can reorder according to his worldview.
Now I bring up Rohr because heâs so influential. I mean, he makes his way into so many of the deconstruction conversations. But beyond Rohr, itâs tough because there can be platforms that swell up and get really big, and then I've seen them shut down after they have maybe 20,000, 30,000 followers, even up to hundreds of thousands of followers. Iâve seen several of these platforms just kind of get burned out and they shut down. So itâs hard to say, but I would say Derek Webb, Caedmonâs Call, is an important voice in there. Youâve gotâWell, Jon Steingard was for a while when he ended up shutting down his YouTube, but he was the lead singer of Hawk Nelson. He was commenting for quite a while. Jo Luehmann is pretty influential. Who else, Tim?
Tim: Well, thereâsâI put them in different categories.
Alisa: The NakedPastor.
Tim: The NakedPastor for sure. So thereâs guys who, and gals who have deconstructed and posted that theyâve deconstructed online. So that would be someone like a Rhett McLaughlin, who 3 million people watched his video four years ago. Heâs been keeping people updated every year; they do kind of an anniversary thing. That sparked so many people on their own deconstruction. Now what's interesting about Rhett is he didnât necessarily tell you how to
Tim: Yeah. And that was enough for some people to say, âMaybe I should do this too.â Now thereâs other platforms out there, and all they do is criticize Christianity, or they mock Christianity. Those are big on TikTok. I mean, there are massive platforms that have half a million followers and millions of views, okay, and I could go down and list some of those for you. But the point is theyâre not necessarily talking about deconstruction and the process, but theyâre just saying, âHey, hereâs what you guys believe, but hereâs my mocking, hereâs my criticism.â
Then thereâs this other stream, and this is the NakedPastor or Jo Luehmann and others who arenât just mocking Christianity or criticizing Christianity but theyâre trying to advocate for a certain kind of process, okay, and that's where youâre going to get a little more detail on how this deconstruction thing works out. And so theyâve been, in fact, Jo Luehmann and the NakedPastor, David Hayward, andâ
Jonathan: Joshua Harris. Didnât he do a course through that?
Tim: That's right. Joshua Harris, when heâagain, on Instagram. That blew up. There were like 7,000 comments in response to him just posting, âIâm no longer a Christian.â And you could see the responses, and Iâm telling you, there were many who said, âThis post is what set me on my deconstruction journey.â So thereâs at least three different categories of influencers out there, and theyâre all playing into the same thing, deconstruction, but they all are coming at it from a different angle.
Jonathan: Alisa, for those who are familiar with your story, how is this movement different from the path that you were on?
Alisa: This is a great question because Iâve actually changed my mind on how I talk about this. So over ten years ago I had a faith crisis that was really agonizing. It was years long. I landed fairly quickly in going through some apologetics arguments, knowing that God existed, but just the doubts that would nag at me were just years of this agonizing research, reading thousands of pages of scholarship, just trying to figure out if what I believed was actually true. And it was propelled by a progressive pastor. I didnât know he was progressive at the time, but I was in a church where there was this class going on and it set my friends, a bunch of my friends, into deconstruction.
And so when I wrote my first book about my journey, I actually called the process that I went through deconstruction because it was horrible, I wouldnât wish it on my worst enemy. It was agonizing and I had to kind of de-con-struct. If you just take the word at face value, and then build back from the beginning.
But interestingly, when I would go online and I would talk about my deconstruction, deconstructionists would come on and say, âNo, you didnât deconstruct.â At first, that was so confusing to me. I was like, âWell, were you there?â I mean, it was like this horrible, agonizing process.
Jonathan: Iâm the ultimate authority here.
Alisa: Yeah, right, I know. And they said, âWell, you didnât deconstruct because you still hold to toxic theology. You still have toxic theological beliefs.â And that's when I realized, oh, okay, so this isnât justâeven though I knew it wasnât a good thing, I knew it was a horrible thing because, again, I wouldnât wish it on my worst enemy, but it wasnât about truth. Itâs actually about leaving behind these beliefs that they think are toxic. And letâs say you completely do hard work of years of studying and you decide that you are a sinner and that Jesus did die on the cross for your sins, that the Bible is Godâs Word and that what Jesus claimed about Himself is true and that He proved it by resurrecting from the dead, if you hold to those beliefs, along with the biblical sexual ethic, you have toxic theology and youâve got to go back to the drawing board and start over.
So that's when I realized, okay, thereâs more to this. And so I actually correct myselfâ
Jonathan: Thereâs a goal.
Alisa: Yeah. I correct myself in the new book and say I donât actually use the language of deconstruction to describe what I went through because I was on a truth quest. I wanted to know what was true, whether I liked it or not, whether it resonated with me or not. In fact, what was interesting in the class I was in where all my friends ended up deconstructing, and I mean all that I know of, there might be two that I lost touch with that maybe didnât, but most of the people that I know of did. And everything in that class was all about what resonates with me. I mean, we would ⊠they would talk about Bible verses and say, âWell, that just doesnât resonate with me,â and they would toss it aside. And I was like, âYou canât just do that.â
And so I didnât deconstruct, and so I corrected my language on that and really changed my mind about what I think it is. And I think what Iâm hoping to set the example for others is people who are wanting to use the word because it was trendyâbecause I really had a thing about that. Why am I using the word? Why am I hanging onto the word? And I had to realize thereâs no reason for me to use that word. Because what I did was search for truth. I tested all things, held fast to what is goodâthat's biblical. I donât need a postmodern word to describe that. And so that would be my journey with this word and kind of my relationship with it is that Iâve changed my mind; I didnât deconstruct. It wasâ
Jonathan: You re-entrenched.
Alisa: Yeah, they just think I circled some wagons and found some people to agree with me. Which is so interesting to me, because they werenât there. And that's the thing. Pete Ens, Iâve seen the comment from him, âOh, Alisa doesnât know ⊠she doesnât understand deconstruction, she doesnât get it.â
And Iâm just like, âWere you there? You werenât there. You have no idea what I went through.â But itâs like theyâre so quick to say, âYou have to respect my lived experience,â but they are the first ones that will not respect your lived experience if you land at historic Christianity for sure.
Jonathan: That makes sense. You guys have spent hours on places like TikTok researching what leads people to deconstruct and what they all have in common. What are the common threads that youâve noticed through that?
Tim: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, some of the factors that weâve noticed that kind of launch people into a deconstruction are things like doubts, unanswered questions. Virtually all these stories have some instance of suffering or pain, and weâve all been through that. Thereâs church hurt, thereâs spiritual abuse. Now weâve got to be careful about that a little bit, because sometimes itâs a real abuse that happens, of course, we would all want to say that is horrible and we stand against that. That is not of God. And so when a pastor engaged in that kind of thing, he needs to be held accountable for it.
But then on the other hand there is what we might call perceived abuse or perceived harm. And this is where things like teaching the doctrine of hell. In our research, we found that that's called, you know, teaching your kids, itâs child abuse. If you say that Jesus died for your sins, that's considered toxic and abusive to tell someone that, yet that's the gospel message. So we want to make sure that we distinguish between those things.
Of course, we just mentioned earlier about politics and Trump and all that stuff. So thereâs these different elements that youâll see peppered within these stories. Now we want to be quick to say that not all deconstruction stories are alike. In fact, they are often very unique, and that's because every single person is unique. So if youâve heard one deconstruction story, then youâve only heard one, you havenât heard them all. But there are these common threads.
One question that we asked when we were doing our research is why is it that two people can grow up in the same house, they can go to the same church, the same youth group, they have the same parents, they experience some of the same trauma, suffering, whatever, and yet one will deconstruct and the other maybe becomes an even more faithful believer. What's going on there?
And what we found is it comes down toâat least one elementâa faith foundation. What is it, what is your faith foundation? And of course, this is going to be different for different people, and what we need to be asking, weâre challenging the church to ask, is what does it mean to be a Christian? Oftentimes, you knowâand this is a question I was asked when I was in university by my friends who were not believers, âTim, why are you a Christian?â And I honestly shot back, âBecause my parents are Christians.â That was my first response. I knew that ainât right. That was embarrassing.
Iâd grown up in the church. Iâd done all the church stuff, and yet I did not have a strong Christian foundation and a strong Christian faith. And so I, at that point, was very susceptible to this kind of deconstruction, right, because I couldâif TikTok was big at that time, I could have watched a video and, âOkay, Iâm outta here. This has been refuted.â
So I think that all those things that I mentioned earlier can make you a good candidate for deconstruction, but they donât have to lead you down the path of deconstruction. This is why itâs really, really important that the church needs to be helping to develop and disciple Christians so they have a strong foundation so when that crisis hits, they are able to stand firm in their faith.
So let me ask this question. There may be a simple answer. Is the faulty foundations that people are building on essentially, I mean, is the answer anything but Christ? Is it in the institution of the church or in the leadership in the church or your favorite Christian singer? Is it ⊠do you find those the main threads that came back?
Alisa: That's an interesting question. I think, you know, when I think about foundation ⊠Because I was trying to think through this question even within my own context. So one of my sisters was not a Christian until she was an adult, and she would say that openly; that's part of her testimony. She grew up in church. We grew up in the same home, we had the same discipleship, the same youth pastors, pretty much the same experiences growing up, same environment, and yet our foundation was different because I was a devoted Christian as far back as I can remember. I mean, I donât even remember a time where I didnât absolutely know that the Bible was Godâs Word and Jesus was who He said He was. And yet, for my sister, she grew up in the same environment but had a totally different foundation. she did all the things, she cooperated with it, but She never personally trusted in Christ.
Jonathan: Going through the motions, yeah, okay.
Alisa: Yeah. And she may not have even realized that. You might have asked her at 12 years old, âAre you a Christian,â she might have said, âWell, yeah,â but she didnât know that she wasnât until she actually got saved as an adult. And so I think the foundation is more of a personal thing. The way I see it is the level of understanding you might have had. We have a lot of this sort of seeker-sensitive model that's over the past few decades has gotten really big. Iâm not saying itâs wrong to have a large church or try to be sensitive to people who are seeking, of course. But some of those seeker-sensitive and megachurch models really watered-down the gospel, really sacrificed discipleship for numbers. And I think that that has resulted in a lot of people growing up in churches that maybeâ
And Iâm not ⊠We donât speculate on this question in the book, were they really saved, were they not because we donât know the end of their story either, but I do think even right now we have a lot of people in our churches who maybe may not be Christians because they may not be getting the gospel, theyâre not getting Bible teaching. And they might like the community and even like and believe certain things about it, but everybodyâs foundation is maybe going to be a little bit different. That's kind of how I see it.
Jonathan: Well, I mean, not to steer us theologically, but I mean it has to be the work of the Spirit in the life of a person, and that's all in the sovereign timing of the Lord. I wonder if sometimes in this American evangelical mindset from an older-generation perspective we have this understanding that my children should be Christians and they should be following the ways that I direct. And then I should start seeing spiritual fruit in their life. Like, well, I donât know. I mean, is there something wrong with that happening at a later point? Just thinking from a parental, a parentâs perspective. Maybe Iâve gone into the weeds there a little bit.
Alisa: Like Tim said, each deconstruction story is unique. I would say it like this. Every deconstruction story is unique and yet theyâre kind of all the same, too, in certain points. I know weâre getting in the weeds a little bit, but as a parent, I wouldnât want to push my kid to say they believe something they donât really believe. Iâd want them to come to that on their own. And that might come later, certainly, yeah.
Jonathan: And thereâs a level of you want your child to be honest with you, and I think sometimes we can put a false expectation on your child to be going to be at a certain place when theyâre just not ready for that yet. And so what theyâre actually deconstructing is deconstructing whatever that false viewâagain, as you said, thereâs different stories of deconstruction. But ultimately, if you deconstruct and never return back, to your point, there was never faith to begin with. You experienced the benefits of a covenant community or whatever it is. As Hebrews says, you were tasting but you werenât of that, you know ⊠not all Israel is Israel.
Do you think itâs potentially because parents are unwilling to engage in the hard questions of the faith? Or do you think perhaps there is always just people who are going to rebel against Christ? Is it all of the above? In your research, I donât know if youâre working with people who have gone through it and then interviewing them. Are you tracing things back to a particular point? I think we all want to say, âWhere does the blame lie?â Are you finding that?
Tim: I think itâs all of the above. A lot of these stories have unanswered questions. In fact, Alisa did a debate on Unbelievable with Lisa Gunger, and she makes this really tragic statement where she said, âQuestioning was equivalent to sinning in our church. If you questioned the pastor, you questioned his teaching, whatever, you were in essence sinning.â
So confessing to your questions is confessing your sins. And that mentality, I mean, we wrote a whole chapter called âQuestions,â In that chapter, what weâre trying to do is a little bit of a wake-up call. Weâre trying to rattle the church a little bit and say, âHey, we can do better. We ought to be the place where people feel safe to ask their questions and express their doubts.â And I hope that everyone listening to this hears that. Tim and Alisa are not against questionsâin fact, weâre apologists. We travel around and weâre doing our best to answer questions, so weâre not against that, and we want the church to be a safe place.
And I mean we give an example of Tim Keller. At the end of his sermons, his services, he would do like a 40-, 45-minute Q&A time where he would just stick around and, okay, come on up. And in New York City, where you have like diversity of people, diversity of views coming in, youâre going to have skeptics, youâre going to have atheists, youâre going to have whatever coming in, asking their hard questions. And when you think about it, the way we have our churches structured, at least most of them, there isnât really a Q&A time. That would be like a very special thing. Maybe every few months the pastor will take questions or something.
Jonathan: A special treat. Yeah, yeah.
Tim: That's right. But for the most part, that's not there, and that can give a lot of people the impression that questions arenât allowed here. You just listen to what's spoken, do what youâre told, and that's the end of it. So I think that's part of it. But you also mentioned, yeah, maybe thereâs a rebellious heart, too. You canât read the Bible very far without seeing someone who has a rebellious heart. So weâ
Tim: That's right. Just a couple of pages in. And so you end up seeing that this is a realistic element that we need to be talking about, too, and that's why we devoted an entire chapter to the deconstructor, because there are things about the deconstructor that are important to be aware of from a biblical anthropology perspective. And so there certainly are people who are seeking answers, and we want to be there to provide answers. But then thereâs also these questions out there that are seeking exits. And you see lots of those. You see them in Scripture and we seeâ
When youâve got Richard Dawkins saying, âWell, who made God?â Richard Dawkins should know better, you know. When my four-year-old asks that question, okay, fair enough. But when you have an academic from Oxford asking that question as if itâs legitimate of the Christian God, something else is going on.
Jonathan: I remember Keller teaching on Job, and he says Job is filled with questions, right, but the issue was that he never left God. He didnât say, âI have questions and now Iâm going to go over here and ask them.: But he kept asking the questions of the Lord in his particular situation. And he was saying that questioning can be a good thing because itâs, as we talked earlier, all truth is Christâs truth, so thereâs nothing to be afraid of. Youâre not going to get an answer where it should cause difficulty. But rather, youâre sticking close to the source and youâre going to get your answers within reason. But rather than goingâ
And itâs interesting, because that's what these TikToks and all these things are creating is new avenues for you to go and ask questions and find a story that resonates with you, right, thatâs the big terminology that we were using earlier. So that resonates with your story and how you feel, and then where did they land?
How do we invite this sort of cultivating an openness for asking of questions? Is it letâs have a Q&A session at the end of church? Is it, you know, we need to start training our parents to have them understand that your kids asking questions is a good thing because theyâre coming to you versus no, everything is fine and Iâm going to go to YouTube and find the answer because I think youâre going to be mad at me or whatever it is. Help us think through that from a church perspective.
Alisa: Well, I think starting with the parents is a great place to start because if we can train parents to be the first person to introduce some of these difficult topics to their kids, we know statistically the first person to introduce the topic will be viewed as an expert in the eyes of the child. So when we as parents are the first people to talk to our kids about gender and sexuality and all of these different thingsâand promoting an environment where weâre not weird about it, weâre not acting awkward about it, then we want to be the Google. I want to be Google for my kids. And that means Iâm going to be really honest when they ask their questions and sometimes give more information than they wanted.
My daughter, she jokes with me like âI know Iâll get a straight answer from you with whatever I ask.â And so maybe even training parents to ask your kids questions like âHey, what's your biggest question about God?â
And parents donât need to be afraid of what their kids say, because itâs perfectly fine to say, âWow, Iâve never really thought about that. Letâs think that through together,â and then go do some research and continue to engage with your kid about it. But I think in the home, if we can start there, that's a great place. And then the church can help come around parents with even youth groups doing Q&As and pastors doing Q&As. I think that's a huge way to promote that environment from the home, all the way through the church culture.
Jonathan: Okay, letâs do a little sort of engaging with others segment here. What would you say to those who are seeing their loved ones go through deconstruction or exvangelical. What would you say to them? Buy our book.
Tim: Yeah, that. And I mean the first thing that I would say is stay calm. It can be not just earthshattering for the person going through deconstruction, but the loved ones of those deconstructors itâs often earthshattering. We talk about this in the book, actually. To find out that my kids who Iâve raised in the church come to me and say, âDad, I donât believe any of this stuff anymore, Iâm out,â that would be crushing.
And I would want to remind myself: stay calm. Iâve heard so many stories, and theyâre actually horror stories, where a child comes to a parent and says, âIâm deconstructingâ and the parent just loses it. âHow could you do that?â And they overreact, and of course that's not going to help. That's the first thing.
I would want my kids right away to know that they are loved, period. That this doesnât change my love for them. Itâs not âI love you, but let me fix your theology.â Itâs âI love you, period. Youâre still my daughter. Iâm still your dad. That's not going to change.â
And then another thing just to add is say thank you. It must have taken a lot for that individual, if they come to you and share that theyâve deconstructed, it must have been a big deal to do that. So I would say, âThanks for sharing that with me and me being the person that can be there for you.â
So those are introductory things. Obviously, relationship is going to be so important. Itâs not necessarily that youâre going to be able to maintain the relationship. Weâve heard stories of people getting no-contact letters from their loved one saying, âYour theology is toxic. I donât want anything to do with you and so weâre done. Hereâs my no-contact letter.â
But if theyâre willing to stay in your life, then we want to do whatever is possible to maintain that relationship without compromising truth. Truth is absolutely necessary. But you want to be in that relationship as long as possible, because that's where youâre going to be able to have probably the best impact.
Itsâ interesting you brought up Job earlier. And Jobâs comforters started on the right track. They were there and they sat with Jobâ
Jonathan: Silent.
Tim: Silently for seven days. And then it was when they started to open their mouths they got themselves into trouble, and I think we can learn something from that. So we want to hear, âHey, tell me your story.â
One of the first questions I would want to know is, âWhat do you mean by deconstruction?â If theyâre using that word, I want to know if they just mean, âHey, Iâm asking some questions. Hey, I donât know if I believe in this view of creation, baptism, and maybe Iâm changing.â
Okay, that's different than what weâre seeing online, okay, this idea of a postmodern process. So I want to nail down, okay, what are you going through and what kind of process or methodology are you using to go through it? I want to be able to identify those things.
And of course, in the book we talk about this idea of triage. If you have a gunshot wound to the head but a broken finger, theyâre treating the gunshot wound to the head, right, the thing that's more serious. And in a similar way, once you understand where this personâs coming from, youâve heard their story, youâre going to be able to do some triage. Okay, what's the most important thing in this moment? Is it that I answer all these questions that Iâm having? Is it that they just need me to be with them because they are going through something?
And I think that's important because sometimes we miss the mark. Especially as apologists, oh, let me answer that question. Letâs go for coffee. Iâm going to fix your theology and then weâll be back on track.
Jonathan: Weâre going to fix the problem, yeah.
Tim: That's likely not going to happen. And then finally, I would just say continue to pray. We cannot underestimate the power of prayer. If someone is going through deconstruction, what they need is God. They need the Holy Spirit. And so letâs petition God on their behalf. Letâs pray that God does whatever is necessary to draw that person back to Himself.
Jonathan: All right, now thinking for the person who is considering deconstructing their faith. And again, that could be a myriad of different positions along that path, but what are the things you would want them to know?
Alisa: Well, so hereâs what I would say. If someone is considering deconstruction as if itâs like an option, âOh, maybe Iâll deconstruct my faith,â and thereâs no crisis that's actually throwing you in deconstruction, I would say you donât need to do that. Thereâs no biblical command to get saved, get baptized, and then deconstruct your faith. You donât need to do that. If there are some incorrect theological views that youâmaybe you grew up in a very legalistic stream of Christianity. Maybe you grew up in the Mormon church. Maybe you grew up as Jehovahâs Witness and you need to go to Scripture, make Scripture your authority, and then get rid of beliefs that were taught to you that are not biblical. I want you to know that that is a biblical process and that is what you should do.
Jonathan: This is what we call disentangling, right, that we were talking about.
Alisa: Yes. In our book, we would call it reformation. But yeah, Jinger Duggar calls it disentangling. I donât care what you call it. I would just really encourage you to not use the word deconstruction, because deconstruction is a very specific thing that isnât about getting your theological beliefs corrected according to the Bible, and so we want to be reforming our faith according to Scripture. And so if you need to disentangle, as Jinger would say, or reform beliefs that were unbiblical, please do that. And that can be a very long process. It can be a difficult process.
But if someone is listening whoâs maybe propelled into deconstruction through some church abuse or whatever it might be, my encouragement would sort of be the same. Itâs actually good for you to get rid of beliefs that led to abuse, that Jesus stands against abuse as well. But I would just encourage you not to get sucked into this sort of deconstruction movement, because itâs not based on absolute truth. Itâs not based on Scripture. And itâs not going to lead you to any sort of healing and wholeness spiritually. And so whether youâre just considering it intellectually or youâre just interested, I would resist it. And that's ⊠Thereâs going to be well-meaning evangelical leaders that will tell you you can deconstruct according to the bible, but I donât think you can. And so letâs keep our language and the way we think about this biblical rather than bringing in a postmodern concept that just clouds the ⊠muddies the water and causes confusion.
Jonathan: All right, this is good because this goes to the next level. What do you say to those who believe that Christianity is toxic or patriarchal? What's your word to them? And then the follow-up to that would be for believers. When do we engage and when do we not engage with people who are kind of promoting that sort of ideology?
Tim: I would want to ask some questions, like what do they mean by toxic, what do they do they mean by patriarchal, to nail down those definitions. Are they appealing to something objective or are they appealing to something subjective based on their own personal preferences? I think itâs really important that we start with what's true before we can look at whether or not something is toxic, or harmful, or whatever.
In the book, we give the example of you stumble upon someone whoâs kind of beating on someoneâs chest, and in that moment it may look like theyâre being abused, but you come to find out that actually theyâve had a heart attack, and that person is not beating on their chest, theyâre doing chest compressions, doing CPR. That totally changes how you see that action, right? It goes from being, hey, that's harmful and toxic to, wait, this is lifesaving, this is lifegiving.
So I think that's really important, when I see a deconstructionist talk about how hell is causing child abuse, I want to know, first of all, if there is such a place as hell. For them, itâs not even on the table; itâs not even the question, right, because itâs a totally different philosophy, a totally different worldview. I want to look at is this true?
I give the example of I told my kids not to jam a knife into the wall socket. Well, why not? Because thereâs electricity in there and it could electrocute you and kill you. So any good parent warns their kids about that. Or touching the hot stove, these kinds of things. Is it harmful for me to tell them not to do that? Everyone agrees, no, that's not harmful; itâs not toxic. Now, it would be toxic if there was no such thing as electricity. If Iâm just playing these games where Iâm trying to torment my kids so theyâre scared to do whatever, to actually make them terrified of the stove or something. No.
Okay, the reason that they need to be careful around this hot stove or not stuck, stick stuff in the wall outlet is because there are dangers. And if hell really is this kind of danger, then we ought to appropriately talk about this issue. Look, Iâm not talking to my three-year-old about eternal conscious torment. You know what Iâm saying? Obviously, there is some appropriate when the time is right. Sexuality, we appropriately talk with those ⊠about those issues with our kids. But we do talk about those things, and that's because theyâre true, and that's were we start.
Jonathan: That sort of answers a little bit of the next question, which is that you both dedicated the book to your children. And weâre, I think, weâve kind of addressed it in terms of being available. But in light of everything that you know and all that is going on with deconstruction and the questions and the struggles of the next generation, how are you taking this and applying this as you raise your children?
Alisa: Well, I know that this research has definitely affected how I parent. In fact, I went through a phase in the early stages of the research where I would hear myself saying things, and I was like, âThat's going to end up in their deconstruction struggle.â And I found myself almost becoming way too passive for it was probably just a couple of months when the research was so intense, and it was new. And it was like, oh my gosh, all these things iâm saying to my children is what people say they think is toxic and that's what theyâre deconstructing from.
And then I swung back around and Iâm like, no, itâs my job as a parent to teach my kids what's true about reality. Just because maybe culture things that 2 + 2 = 5 now doesnât mean that I need to cower and say, âWell, you know, Iâm not going to be too legalistic about 2 + 2 + 4.â No. 2 + 2 = 4. You can believe what you want, but this is what's true. And so I actually, you know, what Iâve started to do is tell my kids âLook, itâs my job as your mom to teach you what's true about reality. And what you believe about God and what you believe about morality is in the same category of science, math, logic. These are facts about reality. Itâs my job to teach you. Now, you are the person who chooses to believe it or not.â
And so what Iâve tried to do is really engage my kids in conversations, but knowing also that statistically they might deconstruct one day. I have to leave a lot of that to the Holy Spirit, and also to try to model to my children what a real believer looks like. I think that's a huge, a huge element in parenting is letting our kids see us repent to them if we sin against them, in front of them. Reading our Bibles on a regular basis together, praying together as a family. Not just being Sunday Christians. Here in the South itâs real easy to just be that Sunday Christian and thenâ
Jonathan: Haunted by the ghost of Christ.
Alisa: That's right. And then you just live like He doesnât exist the rest of the week. And that's the thing about the Bible Belt. Certainly, people arenât acting ⊠like doing pagan sacrifices during the week. They are pretty much good people. But itâs just not relevant to their lives until Sunday comes around. And just being different from that in front of our kids is something Iâve really tried to engage.
And just engaging their questions without pushing them, I think, is a huge thing. Like you mentioned earlier, is letting them have their own story and their own journey. And even as my sons wrestled with the problem of evil for about two years really intensely, I really didnât want to push him. And I just validated that that's a good question, that's an honest question to ask, and letâs talk to the Lord about it, letâs think through some things. But trying not to push him to just settle really quickly so that he can work this out for himself, with discipleship and the guidance of parents. But that's one of the ways itâs really affected my parenting.
Tim: That's so good. Yes and amen to all of that.
Jonathan: Okay, I second that. All right, give us some hope. This is your part three. Part three. This can all sound pretty scary and off-putting and you need to block it out.
Tim: It really really does seem hopeless, especially if you spend any time kind of typing in hashtag deconstruction or hashtag exvangelical. I mean, I would go into my office here and start working and writing and Iâd come out and Iâd just be like ⊠my mood has changed.
Jonathan: Spiritual warfare, for sure.
Tim: My wife knew it, oh yeah, my wife saw it and my kids could see it. It was really discouraging. And so I feel for those parents who have that loved one whoâs going through this, and many do, so we wanted to make sure we end the book on a hopeful note. And one of the things that we were thinking aboutâin fact, I think it started with a phone call. I called Alisa, and I remember I was sitting at my dining-room table and I had a sermon that I was going to give on deconstruction. And Iâm like, Alisa, I need to end this thing with something hopeful because it is so ⊠And I had, actually, a parent reach out to me before I gave the sermon, saying, âI really hope that youâre going to give us some hope.â Because they have a child themselves, a young adult, whoâs deconstructing. Iâm thinking, okay, what is it Alisa? Help me out here.
And we just started talking back and forth and so I donât know how this came up, but eventually we started thinking about Easter weekend, right, weâre coming up to it. Of course, you think about what was going on Friday night. Itâs like Peterâs there; heâs seen his Savior, his Messiah being crucified, and his world is turned upside down. We could just imagine what that was like to go through this traumatic experience.
And then, of course, it jumps to Sunday and Sunday brings with it resurrected hope, right? And you have the angel shows up, tells the women, you know, go and tell His disciples AND Peter. Like Peter really needs to hear this. Friday night, he denied the Lord three times. It was a bad night for Peter. But heâs going to receive this resurrection hope on Sunday.
Well, we actually titled the last chapter âSaturdayâ because we think that a lot of people are living in what could be described as a Saturday. Now again, weâre not told much about that particular Easter Saturday, so we can only speculate, but really, I mean, what kind of questions were the disciples, in particular, Peter, asking? Were they starting to doubt some of the things that they had been taught, maybe like trying to explain away some of the miracles they had seen? It wasnât supposed to happen this way, was it? And so thereâs self-doubt, thereâs all this trauma that theyâve experienced.
Now of course, Sunday was just around the corner. We think that, look, if that hope can come for Peter, then it can come for you and your loved one, too, right? We donât know what that Saturday looks like. It may not be tomorrow. It may not be just one 24-hour day. It could be months down the road; it could be years down the road; but we think this is a message. Because if it can happen for Peter, it can happen for your loved one. And I think that can move us from a state of âThis is completely hopeless, what good can come from this? How can this be undone,â to a state where, no, we can be hopeful. Jesus rose from the grave after being dead. And when that happened, Peterâs faith is restored.
âDo you love me?â He says, âYeah, I love you.â Three times, kind of like paralleling the three denials.
Jonathan: Exactly.
Tim: And then the Church is built on this confession. So I mean that brings me hope, and hopefully it brings hope to others who are going through this.
Jonathan: Just one final question. Have you seen anyone whoâs been restored out of this?
Alisa: You know what? I have heard a few stories, but these are people that have platforms. So I have several people that are part of my Facebook community who have said they deconstructed into progressive Christianity but have been brought back. I have had a couple of people on my personal podcast who had deconstructed. One is a guy name Dave Stovall. We actually tell his story in the book. He was in the band Audio Adrenaline, and he deconstructed into progressive Christianity and then a local pastor here in town discipled him back to the historic Christian faith and had all these difficult conversations with him and engaged him in conversation. So I think we are seeing some. Weâre not seeing a lot yet, but I think a lot of the stories maybe are just more private, where people arenât necessarily shouting it on social media. But yeah, the Lordâs at work, absolutely.
Jonathan: That's good.
Tim: Yeah, I can echo that, too. Weâve been ⊠A I travel around teaching and speaking, Iâll have people come up to me and usually you get a lot of people saying, âThanks for hits information. I had no idea this was going on.â But this one guy, he said, âI went through deconstruction.â And he said, âIt was when you put up your definition of deconstruction that you had me because thatââ
Alisa: Wow!
Tim: I thought he was going to push back and be like, âBut that's not how you define it. Instead, he said, âYou had me as soon as you put up your definition.â Why? âBecause,â he said, âthat exactly described the process that I was going through.â And yet, here he was on that Sunday morning at church kind of completely kind of turning a corner and willing to say, âNo, Iâm willing to follow the truth wherever it leads.â
And that led him to affirming that the Bible is Godâs Word, and now heâs trying to align his beliefs. And of course, that's a journey weâre all on. I have false beliefs right now; I just donât know which ones are false, right? Iâm always trying to correct my mistaken beliefs and make them align with Scripture. And praise the Lord, that was the journey he was on.
Jonathan: Oh, amen. Well, the book is The Deconstruction of Christianity: What It Is, Why Itâs Destructive and How To Respond. Alisa Childers, Tim Barnett, thank you, guys, so much for being on Candid Conversations. Iâve really enjoyed our talk today.
Alisa: Me, too. Thanks so much.
Tim: Yeah, this was a lot of fun. Thanks for having us.
Jonathan: God bless.
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In this new reflection, Jonathan shares the Biblical principles of teamwork and selflessness that should be found within the church community.
Continuing from last week's reflection, "Are you walking in truth?", Jonathan recounts the story of Bill Romanowski, an incredibly talented former NFL player known for his less-than-ideal teamwork. His story is a modern parallel to the Biblical account of Diotrephes, who prioritized self-interest over communal harmony.
Join us as we uncover what the Bible says about true servanthood and how we can walk as godly team members daily.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
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Join Jonathan Youssef to navigate the complexities of truth and love. In this episode of Candid, Jonathan will examine the challenges of understanding these concepts, including whether absolute truth exists and the multifaceted nature of love.
The conversation touches on the Christian perspective of being salt and light to a dying world that lacks an understanding of truth and love. It highlights the importance of living out the truth of our faith with love and patience in the community.
Further, we explore the apostle John's transformation from a zealous youth to a wise elder who embodies truth and love. Through his letter to Gaius, we uncover the joys of faithfulness to the Gospel, the significance of hospitality, and how to discern true from false teachings.
This episode aims to inspire a deeper understanding and practice of truth and love in listeners' lives. It encourages reflection on personal beliefs and actions in light of these foundational principles. Join us to explore how these ancient virtues remain relevant and transformative today.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 244, Are You Walking in Truth?:
Today I want to talk to you about Truth and love. These are two words with many different definitions. When I say truth and love, you donât even know what I could say next. I could say anything. Is it my truth? Is it your truth? Is it his truth, her truth, their truth? Itâs almost as if itâs just a subjective topic, a subjective term. Is there anything like absolute truth?
And love, my goodness, are we talking about romantic love, brotherly love, or agape love? Are we talking about love that is just tolerance and acceptance? Do we love each other only as long as we agree with each other? Or is it just a feeling or an emotion? Is love self-defined? Love is love.
The world today is tied up into knots over these two terms. Can a person have truth and not love? Can a person have love but not truth? Hereâs the reality: I donât expect the world to get this right. I donât have a great hope that things will get a lot better at any point in time because this is not our home. But at the same time, I have not been called to run out into the hills and build a bunker and stock up on ammunition. We have been called to look at a dying world that does not know the truth and does not understand love, and we are called to be salt, and we are called to be light to them.
We are called to encourage one another, to gather and praise God's name together, and to go out and witness to the world together because our message is far greater than any message they will ever hear. No matter your age or stage of life, if you put your saving trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, then your calling is to be obedient to the truth and to walk the truth out in love.
A. W. Pink was a reformed theologian who wrote several great books and many fantastic sermons. His writing is so helpful; Iâve used several of his writings in research that Iâve done for other sermons. Martin Lloyd-Jones, who was succeeded by our dear friend R. T. Kendall at Westminster Chapel said, âDonât waste your time reading these other theologians,â like Karl Barth and Bruner. He said, âGo and read Arthur Pink. Read Pink.â
Pink would tour around America and Australia preaching and teaching, but he was never well-known until after he died. Pink finished out his days living in isolation in Scotland with his wife. They never really became part of a church body. They never got situated with a good church community.
Lloyd-Jones also said of Pink, âAs it related to his inability to be patient with people and remain in a particular church, if I had behaved as Pink did, I would have achieved nothing. I could see that the only hope was to let the weight of truth convince people, so I had to be very patient and take a long-term look at things; otherwise, I would have been dismissed, and the whole thing would have been finished.â
Pink was a man who was grounded in the truth and yet, for whatever reason, was not walking it out. And his own friends testified against him. Thatâs why Scripture is very careful to teach us that we walk these two things out togetherâtruth and love. We should be people who are marked by truth, strong in our convictions, and hold fast to the Word of God, by the Spirit of God, for the glory of God. But we should also be marked by love and generosity, grace and humility, hospitality, and care because all of these are the markings of Jesusâs life and ministry on Earth.
So, we read about these two things, truth and love, in the shortest letter in the Bible, Johnâs third epistle. Before we go any further, letâs take a minute and read from Third John:
The elder, To my dear friend Gaius, whom I love in the truth. Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well. It gave me great joy when some believers came and testified about your faithfulness to the truth, telling how you continue to walk in it. I have no greater joy than to hear that my children are walking in the truth. Dear friend, you are a faithful ... you are faithful in what you are doing for the brothers and sisters, even though they are strangers to you. They have told the church about your love. You will do well to send them on their way in a manner worthy of God. It was for the sake of the Name that they went out, receiving no help from the pagans. We ought therefore to show hospitality to such men so that we may work together for the truth.
John wrote the Gospel of John and First, Second, and Third John. He would also later write the book of Revelation. First John was written to a very general audience. Second John was written to a specific church. And this letter, Third John, was written to a very personal and specific person.
Letâs take a minute to get to know John. He was a disciple, and he was nicknamed by Jesus, with his brother James, the âsons of thunderâ. When Jesus and the disciples were turned away from hospitality from a Samaritan village, it was James and John who went to Jesus and said, âCan we call for fire to come down to judge these people,â - a la Elijah and the prophets of Baal.
Jesus rebukes them because his first coming was not one of judgment but to preach the good news, to bring healing, and to bring life. But compare John in his youth to this John here in writing his third letter, and he is referred to simply as âthe elder.â John grew from a brash, arrogant young man filled with fire, to this wise, gentle, loving older man who is full of love and truth.
What happened to John? How did he move from a son of thunder to the loving elder? What had he experienced? He had witnessed a lot. He had witnessed Jesusâs teachings, Jesusâ miracles, Jesusâ preaching. He witnessed Jesusâ patience with the disciples. He witnessed the transfiguration and saw Christ with Moses and Elijah, a depiction of the Law and the prophets. He also witnessed His Lord and Savior crucified on the cross. It was then he was given the position of caring for Jesusâs mother, Mary. This is John, who would also see His Resurrected Lord and Savior. John is a man who has been used mightily by the Lord.
And John is writing this letter to a man called Gaius. Now, we donât know anything about Gaius. He doesnât appear to be in any sort of leadership in the church that we can tell. All we see is Gaiusâs character, and that character is being reported back to John. We see that there was some conflict in the church over who was trustworthy. They wanted to know who they could believe.
There are so many mixed messages. A preacher would travel from house church to house church and depend on other believers to show them hospitality. In Johnâs second epistle he warns the believers not to welcome in or even greet the false preachers and teachers because that would only help them spread a false gospel. Heâs saying, âDo not endorse these people, but take the faithful in and welcome them.â
So, what are the distinguishing marks between a false teacher and a faithful teacher? Now, these werenât denominational issues. They werenât in disagreement over infant baptism and believerâs baptism. They disagreed over whether Christ had physically come in the flesh. John says, âLeave these people alone. Let them go on their way. The truth itself will testify to the faithful teachers.â
In essence, he is saying, âIf you are a believer who has heard and received the Gospel and your spiritual eyes have been opened, your spirit inside you will resonate with what is being taught and you will know a true teacher of the Gospel.â
Teachers were dependent on hospitality. They didn't have Holiday Inn or Motel 6. This is why hospitality was such a major issue in the early church. When Jesus sends out the 12 and the 72, He tells them they will be provided for by people of peace. When Paul writes to the Romans, he fully expects that they will financially support his mission journey to Spain. And the book of Hebrews urges the hearers not to neglect hospitality to strangers. Two great needs, truth and love, together.
So John writes to Gaius, verse 1, âThe elder to the,â in the ESV, beloved, Iâm going to use that term, âthe beloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.â
What does it mean to love in the truth? John says that Gaius continues to be faithful to the truth concerning Jesus Christ. And it is the truth that binds us together. We know love because we know the truth.
John writes in his first epistle, 1 John chapter 3 verse 16, âBy this, we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers because of the truth of the gospel.â Because of the gospel's truth, we are called to love one another. Strangers? Never heard of it, not in the church. I may not know your name, but we are brothers and sisters in Christ. We have more commonality than flesh and blood oftentimes do.
Listen to what John writes in verse 2, âBeloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health as it goes well with your soul.â
How does he know itâs going well with Gaiusâs soul? We read it in the next verse: "For I rejoiced greatly when the brothers came and testified to your truth, as indeed you are walking in the truth.â
John knows it is going well with Gaiusâs soul because he is living out the gospel's truth. They testified about his faithfulness to the gospel. Gaius is living out the truth of the gospel in love. Heâs walking in the truth.
John emphasizes that Gaiusâs faithfulness involves his holding to true doctrine and his persistence and actions, which are consistent with what is in the doctrine. In verse 4, John says that his greatest joy is not that his 401(k) is strong, not that his childrenâs academic and athletic successes are great, not that the design of his home is beautiful, nor that his favorite sports team won a big game. His greatest joy is that his children fellowship with him and actively walk in the truth.
In each of his three lettersâto the general church, to the specific church, and to the individualâhe goes out of his way to say, âThis is important to me. Iâm conveying what brings me joy: that you are walking in the truth.â
Gaius has remained faithful to the gospel. He has not fallen to the false teachings that were swirling around. And he is a source of the elderâs greatest joy. Moms and dads, what is your greatest joy regarding your children? Is it that they are academically successful and get into a fantastic college? Is it that they are athletically successful and get scholarships? Is it in your position and the status of your vocation? Is it in the appearance of your home?
And this goes beyond families because Gaius is not Johnâs physical son; heâs his spiritual son. And so when we are here together as a body, we are, again, brothers and sisters in Christ, and weâre constantly putting forth and putting on display what we prize. I wonder if we went around and asked all the children, âWhat is it that your mom and dad prize, or your grandma and your grandfather?â What are we displaying as the greatest value to the next generation?
But I also understand that this can be a source of great pain for many people. Your children may not be walking with the Lord, so instead of being a source of great joy, it is a source of great struggle and pain. I think John would give the word to those in that situation to remain in the truth and love. Donât take truth as a 2 x 4 to your children and try to beat them up with it, insisting that this is right. Your children will despise you for that, and they will despise the truth. But you walk this out in love, with compassion. Donât forget the truth. Instead, hold it together with love. That is the gospel's message as it was put on perfect display by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Then John praises Gaius for his hospitality to traveling preachers. âBeloved, it is a faithful thing you do in all your efforts for these brothers, strangers as they are, who testify to your love before the church.â
His efforts for the faithful brothers is what John commends as faithful. It isnât just what Gaius believes is faithful, but also his actions. And it is because of what Gaius believes, what he has planted his faith in, that he can be faithful with his actions. Because if youâre not planted in something faithful, your actions wonât reflect faithfulness. But Gaius is planted in a living hope. He is planted in a resurrected hope. He is planted in an unconquerable hope.
These believers go back to Ephesus, where John was, and they say, âWe had an amazing time preaching in this little town. You wouldnât believe it. In this little town, there was a brother in Christ called Gaius, and he was a brother who was strong in the truth. And he was a brother who loved well. He took us in, cared for us, and introduced us to people in the church. He is a dear brother.â
How good is it when people speak well of us? Have you ever been conversing with someone you didn't know very well, and you mention a friend, and that person immediately starts to gush over that person?
âOh, I love that person. They are so fantastic! Let me tell you. We were moving, and they came and helped us move.â And then youâre sharing stories about how fantastic this person is, how much you love this person, how helpful and insightful they are, and what a blessing they are to know them.
I remember in Australia, there was a well-known evangelist and preacher who was contemporaries with John Stott and Dick Lucas, and just like those two men, this man never married. And the Lord used their singleness to serve the global church so well. This manâs name was John Chapman, and in typical Australian lingo, they shortened it incredibly and just called him Chapo. He was funny, he was kind, he was generous, he was hospitable. He was a mentor to my pastor in Sydney. He had done some work with Dad in the past as it related to evangelism.
And I remember after Chapo died watching his funeral online. The Archbishop of Sydney got up and shared, and he mentioned how deep of an impact Chapo had on so many people. And then he said, âWhy donât we all take a minute right now and have everyone just share your Chapo story with your neighbor?â I mean, I almost burst into tears because it was immediate. Not a second had passed, and the room was filled with smiles, laughter, love, and storytelling. And the problem was that they finally had to get up and say, âStop. Be quiet. Stop. We have to keep going with the service.â Because they could have gone on like that for hours.
I have a feeling that would have been Gaius. Maybe on a smaller scale, but that would have been Gaius. People would have gone on and on about how dearly he was loved and his impact on them.
I wonder what people would say at a celebration of your life? Would people easily share what an encourager you have been and what a great help you were? Or would they talk about how you may have had your doctrine perfect, dotted every I, and crossed every T, but had no love, like Arthur Pink?
There werenât universities, trade schools, or tertiary education in the first century. There were these philosophers who would gather in the town square and philosophize. They would just drone on and on about how their philosophy was right. Nothing has changed.
They would try to attract hearers, and then they would start these schools with the hopes that some of these families would say, âWe want to send our son to your school,â and then they would train them in that philosophy. Some thought that just as there were stoics, cynics, and epicureans, Christians would have a school like this, and then they would just train up their people like this, that they were just another philosophy of life.
But Christians refused to take this money because Christians were not saying they were just another philosophy amongst the rest. They were announcing the Kingdom of God. They were telling people the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is not just a philosophy; that is a total worldview perspective that affects everything and everyone.
So John says, âThese men come in the name of Christ, preaching the word of Christ, and they refuse help from the pagans; therefore, we ought to support people like these, that we may be fellow workers for the truth.â
Now listen, I understand we may not be in the same position as Gaius or this church, but think about your missionary care and support. Think about your care and your support for ministries that strive to take the gospel to the lost and those on the outside. Think about how you care for and support the pastoral team in your church. Think about how you care for and support your small group leader; how you care for and support your Bible study leader. Think about what it means to support people in ministry. We are all fellow workers for the truth. Your support carries on our work as preachers.
It allows for ministries like Leading The Way to exist, and that work leads to ultimate destinies being changed in people's lives. I read a letter from a young Muslim convert a while back. He was watching the Genesis series we did a while back and talked about how it served, blessed, encouraged, and equipped him. So, your support of the truth motivated by love is serving and blessing this community here and to the rest of the world. What a privilege it is to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, to be supportive of something outside ourselves. When we see that people are blessed and are walking in the truth, that can serve as our greatest joy.
I want to leave you with three questions. It would be good to write them down and to think about them this week.
First, where does your great joy come from?
Second, do people speak well of you regarding truth and love?
And finally, are you a fellow worker for the truth?
I hope these will serve you well today, tomorrow, the week ahead, and the rest of your life. I hope that they will serve as great motivation.
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How do you forgive when you feel deeply wronged and wounded? Is it important to ask for forgiveness when we have wronged someone else?
On today's episode of Candid, Jonathan Youssef unpacks the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18 and reveals how giving and receiving forgiveness are intertwined.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Good Friday invites us to witness Christ's profound love and sacrifice, urging us to ponder our role in this redemptive narrative. It calls us to seize the hope and transformation found only in Jesusâs death and Resurrection, motivating us to live lives that reflect Christ's calling.
Join Jonathan Youssef for a thoughtful reflection on the events of Good Friday. We'll explore the depth of Jesus's suffering and its crucial role in delivering salvation and hope to the world. Weâll also explore the critical moments at Golgotha, including Jesusâs crucifixion, the division of his garments, and the powerful expressions of love and sacrifice from that day.
By the end of this episode, youâll gain insights into the significance of Good Friday in the foundation of Christianity, emphasizing the salvation plan and the transformative impact of Jesusâs ultimate sacrifice.
Stand alongside Jonathan at the base of the cross where Christ was crucified and contemplate the magnitude of Godâs love for humanity during this Holy Week.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Is your prayer life effective? Like many, you may ask, "What is an effective prayer life?"
Join Jonathan Youssef to explore the question of what makes prayer effective. With insights from James 5:16 and the prophet Daniel's prayer life, listeners are guided through the foundational aspects of a prayer that resonates with God, including righteousness, praise, confession, mercy, and bold petitions.
Jonathan emphasizes the importance of aligning our prayers with God's will, as revealed through Scripture. He demonstrates how a righteous life and heartfelt prayer can lead to significant spiritual growth and transformation. This episode encourages listeners to re-evaluate their approach to prayer, ensuring it's rooted in a deep relationship with Christ and a sincere desire to see God's will done on earth.
Whether seeking to invigorate your prayer life or deepen your spiritual walk, this episode offers valuable insights into connecting more meaningfully with God through prayer. Tune in for a journey that promises to uplift and inspire your faith.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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In this enlightening episode of Candid Conversations, Jonathan Youssef welcomes Phylicia Masonheimer, an influential writer, speaker, and the founder of Every Woman a Theologian. With a Bachelor of Science in Religion and author of pivotal books such as Every Woman a Theologian: Know What You Believe, Live It Confidently, Communicate It Graciously, and Stop Calling Me Beautiful: Finding Soul-Deep Strength in a Skin-Deep World, Phylicia shares her compelling journey from growing up in a culture adjacent to legalism to empowering women in their faith and understanding of the Bible.
Phylicia delves into the critical issues surrounding purity culture, the importance of theological education for women, and the nuanced challenges of navigating legalism and fluffy, feel-good teachings within the Christian community.
Further exploring the balance of family life, ministry, and personal growth, Phylicia and Jonathan discuss practical strategies for managing time, the value of intentional living, and the profound impact of home discipleship on children's spiritual development. Phylicia's insightful perspectives on critical thinking, engaging with Scripture, and the transformative power of the Gospel offers you a refreshing approach to your faith journey.
This episode is not just a conversation but a heartfelt invitation to embrace theology with open arms and discover the strength and grace that come from a deeper understanding of God's Word.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpod
Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Join Jonathan to discover the roots and the dangers of the prosperity gospel. In this insightful reflection, Jonathan highlights the danger of the prosperity gospel and its power to distort faith into a tool for material gain, urging listeners to prioritize their devotion to Jesus Christ over wealth. He emphasizes the importance of choosing eternal treasures over worldly ones, using Moses and Jesus Christ as models for forsaking earthly riches for God's glory.
The episode of Candid challenges listeners to reflect on their values and the true meaning of living a life of Biblical prosperity, encouraging a life aligned with God's purposes rather than pursuing material wealth.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Jordan Taylor was entrenched in the New Age for more than ten years. She practiced witchcraft, performed spells, was a tarot card reader, and enrolled in classes to sharpen her psychic abilities. She was a certified Reiki master and yoga teacher. She used crystals as a means of healing, protecting, and manifesting. She worshiped nature and worked with goddesses. She found her spirit guides and let them lead the course of her life. She believed she created her reality and was her god, controlling her life.
But she grappled with darkness, deception, and a yearning for moreâŠuntil she had an encounter with God.
Jordan Taylor first shared her testimony of giving her life to Christ on Facebook, which went viral. She then turned that post into an article for the Gospel Coalition. We wanted to know more, so Jordan joins Jonathan for a Candid Conversation to discuss what led her into the New Age, what prompted her to consider a relationship with Christ, and how that relationship has transformed her life from anxiety and darkness to peace, love, and light in Christ.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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TRANSCRIPT
This transcript recounts Candid Conversations Episode 238: New Age to New Life with Jordan Taylor.
Jonathan Youssef: Today, my guest is Jordan Taylor. She wrote an article on the Gospel Coalition website, and Jordan, you mentioned that your testimony went viral. Was it that article on Gospel Coalition, or was there another platform on which your testimony went viral?
Jordan Taylor: Yes, my testimony on Facebook went viral.
Jonathan: Facebook. Okay. Jordan Taylor comes out of New Age, so donât worry if youâre a Christian. If youâve heard that term a thousand times and still have no idea what it is, Jordan Taylor will define it for us. And itâs a wonderful testimony of how the Lord has drawn you to Himself. It sounds like Heâs using you to help others who are caught up in this worldview, particularly young people who are getting caught up in thisâI know Iâve seen it quite prevalently, even in the most recent years, so thank you so much, Jordan Taylor, for joining us on Candid Conversations.
Jordan: Thank you so much for having me.
Jonathan: Letâs start with a definition of âNew Age.â You could use that term, and maybe 10 percent of the people in the room would have an accurate definition; the rest just nod along and assume they know what youâre talking about.
Jordan: True. So, it is very difficult to define because there is no systematic doctrine for the New Age, and it borrows from many different religions, belief systems, and esoteric traditions. So you might find itâs sort of an umbrella term for a mixture of these concepts drawn from things like Hinduism, Buddhism, metaphysics, astrology, occultism, and mysticism. So it pulls from all different places, and you can say one thing, and another person in the New Age may not be doing that same thing.
Jonathan: Right. Is it sort of the view of theyâre at the top of the mountain, and theyâre saying, âHey, all the paths lead to the top, donât worryâ sort of thing?
Jordan: Yeah. You will find that. You will find that all roads lead to heaven sort of mentality.
Jonathan: Interesting. Will you tell us your story? Letâs start with origins and how you got into this, and then weâll get to the rest of your testimony and how the Lord saved you from it.
Jordan: I was in the New Age for about 13 years. I started by getting involved with yoga, and eventually, that led into meditation, so it was sort of a snowball effect. I started going to therapyâand youâll see in any modern therapy as well as if you google stress management or how to deal with anger or how to deal with anything, youâll see that the results are yoga, breathing, meditation. Youâll find a lot of that. So, I started seeing a therapist who recommended taking yoga, and I was not really into that. I wasnât sold on it. But eventually, after enough encouragement, I decided to try it. I was already into psychic mediums, and I had an obsession with crystals, so I was already there. I had moved to Salem, Massachusetts, at the time, so I was engrained inâ
Jonathan: Witchcraft.
Jordan: Yeah. Witchcraftâ
Jonathan: Right at the heart of it, Salem.
Jordan: Yeah, my interests were piqued in that matter, so being in Salem definitely overwhelmed me with more of that. Then, being encouraged to try yoga just kind of fits. So I did. I tried yoga and thought I could see how people would like this and how people would feel better after a class like this. I still wasnât 100 percent sold, but eventually, I liked it so much that I got certified as a yoga teacher. So, I was a yoga teacher. I also became a reiki master- an energy healer. I did hands-on energy healing. I was doing crystal healing. I was an oracle card reader. I was doing intuitive readings with people. And I built a whole business around this, soâ
Jonathan: Is this about finding peace, connection with the universe, and alignment? Iâm assuming astrology probably comes into this. Yeah, so itâs a seeking of oneness and purpose. These are kind of the main thrusts behind this mindset.
Jordan: Yeah, I was certainly seeking my purpose. I came from a childhood of trauma. I had a pretty rough childhood growing up, and so I had a lot of unhealed trauma that I hadnât processed.
Jonathan: And that's why you were seeing a therapist to begin with?
Jordan: Yes.
Jonathan: Okay. All right.
Jordan: Yes. I was really searching for ways to heal, for peace, and for my purpose on this earth, and the New Age really played into all of that.
Jonathan: Yeah. Yeah, and it gives you a lot of answers, too; I know the term they like to use a lot is holistic, right? Itâs mind/body/spirit, things that are not uncommon to the Christian faith in terms of thinking through those things. Our body is a temple, etc., the renewing of your mind. But the connection to the Earth and the universe, from our perspective now, now that the Lord has saved us, and given us a mind to think, and given us His Word, right, thereâs some truth in the elements of creation and the display of the wonder of God, but itâs been warped, itâs been twisted. I remember reading in your article about this is sort of buying into the original lie of Adam and Eve in the Garden.
Jordan: Yes.
Jonathan: That's sort of a helpful thought. I mean, I think everything originates there, right? Itâs, in a sense, even in the seeking of oneness, thereâs this element of divinity within ourselves and not outside of us so much. Yeah.
Jordan: Totally. I would say that witchcraft started in the Garden of Eden. I mean, Adam and Eve believed the greatest lie ever told, that you would be as gods, and so when you think about it, a lot of times youâre thinking, okay ⊠Well, in the New Age you believe that you can create your reality. You believe that you can manifest what you want. And so essentially, you are thinking that you are your god.
Jonathan: Speaking things into existence and power over all sorts of things. Okay, so youâre headlong into it. Youâre teaching yoga, youâre a reiki master, youâre reading cards. Where does the metaphorical stop sign come, or what does it look like, a yield sign or âŠ?
Jordan: I was just so deep into this stuff and at the darkest time in my life. I can remember struggling with depression. I was putting on this façade like I had all the wisdom of the universe and all the secrets and the keys to life and abundance, manifesting joy and peace. And really, behind the scenes, I was struggling deeply with anxiety and depression. And I was at such a low point and such a dark point that I remember saying I preferred not to live anymore. And I was also experiencing things. Because my intentions were good, I thought that I was helping myself; I thought that I was helping other people, and my intentions were good. But what I didnât know was that I was playing in the spiritual realm, and I was opening doors to places that I didnât realize I shouldnât be going. And so I was welcoming in darkness, and I was welcoming in the enemy. In my article, I said that I was laying down a welcome mat for deception and darkness.
And so it got so bad, I was experiencing sleep paralysis, just so many things were happening, and I reached such a low. And at that time, I was dating someone, and the guy that I was dating had just lost his brother. He was an atheist, and he told me one morning that he had a dream, and in the dream, he had met Jesus. And so he told me about this dream, and I didnât know what to do with it because I had all of these opinions about Christianity, I had all these opinions about Jesus. I believed that Jesus was just a prophet, a historical figure, a teacher. I had even subscribed to the fact that maybe Jesus was some ascended masterâyouâll hear that in the New Age. And I also had so many opinions about the bible, and I had never read it.
So hearing him say, âI had this dream about Jesus,â I didnât know what to do with it, but I thought, you know, heâs going through a lot, and Iâm going to support him, no matter what that looks like. So I just kind of listened. And then he startedânext thing I know, like every time I see him, heâs got his nose in the Bible. And then heâs like, âI want to go to church. I want to find a church.â And Iâm just like, âWhat is happening?â
Jonathan: Whereâs my atheist boyfriend?
Jordan: Yeah! It served me when I was in the New Age because I could kind of pull from any sort of belief and make it true, or true in my mind, I should say. And so being with an atheist matched that for me.
Jonathan: He wasnât giving you any insight.
Jordan: No, and he wasnât challenging me in any sort of way, either, to think otherwise. Because I could think whatever came my way, I could think that it was true. And so Iâm seeing him checking out churches and reading the Bible, and I remember one time, it was on a Saturday, and I was working, and I text-messaged him and said, âWhat are you up to?â And he said, âOh, Iâm just watching Passion of the Christ.â And I was like, âFor fun? Like this is what you do for fun now?â
Jonathan: Just another Saturday afternoon.
Jordan: I was really confused. But I did become curious. So, since Iâd seen him reading the Bible so much, I wondered, âWhat is in there that has gotten your attention? What are you reading?â And he started to tell me some things he was reading, and I was like, âReally? That's in the Bible?â I didnât know what was in the Bible; Iâd never read it, but I thought I knew what it was all about. I feel silly thinking back on it. And so I remember him asking me to watch a movie called Son of God. And I just really was like, I donât think that I want to watch a movie about Jesus in my spare time. I donât want to watch a movie about Jesus for fun. And I was just so averse to thatâeven though a part of me was curious about what was happening in him, curious about what he was learning, that I eventually did say, âOkay, Iâll watch this movie.â
And so I sat down to watch the movie. I remember very distinctly that I donât remember what part of the movie, and I canât even tell you how the movie was, whether it was good or not, but all I can remember was there was a moment where I just started weeping. And it was a cry that Iâd never cried before. And I was weeping, and at the same time that I was weeping, I felt this overwhelming feeling of love. I was just enveloped in this overwhelming feeling of love.
And I was just crying and crying, and I remember looking over at my boyfriend and him looking at me, and I was just like, âWhat? What? Donât look at me! Iâm having this experience. I donât know what's going on.â
But I realized at that moment that it was God. And I knew that God was after my heart. Ever since that moment, I have thought, I want to feel that again and know what this is all about. I want to know what God is all about. I thought I knew best because Iâd had so many different experiences throughout my life, especially in the New Age. And after that moment, I felt compelled to read the Bible. I ended up going and buying a Bible. Once I started reading the Bible, I realized that so many things were taken from the Bible and repackaged in the New Age so that people could either digest it better or make it more appealing to people. And ultimately, I guess, make it less offensive.
So I was reading these things, and Iâm like, Oh my goodness. I remember learning about this in the New Age, but under such different circumstances, under deception. And so as I was reading, I felt this sorrow that I knew what I had been doing was wrong, and I knew that I had been sinning against God, and I felt really bad, but in a way that it was a godly sorrow. But Iâm realizing, Oh my goodness, I see the truth. I see the truth now. And as Iâm reading Godâs Word, Iâm like, Oh my gosh, I was doing all of these things unknowingly against the God who created me. And so I thought that I knew who âGod,â I say in quotation marks, who God was. I always called God âthe universeâ and thought that this universe was handing me my cards in life, not knowing that God is a person who is alive andâ
Jonathan: Revealed Himself andâ
Jordan: He has revealed Himself to me, and Iâm learning the truth.
Jonathan: You mentioned that you thought you knew what the Bible was about. So, in that lifestyle, what did you think the Bible was about?
Jordan: I thought the Bible was just this tool to oppress people. I thought that it was so outdated and that it was just a tool for the patriarchy. I thought that it was anti-women. You know, I was really big into feminism, so I thought it was anti-women. I thought it was just anti-people, really, and that it was trying to create systems of oppression. And yeah, I just thought that people who read the Bible and Christians were stuck in an old paradigm and not realizing that it was me who was deceived.
Jonathan: You mentioned that as you began to read Scripture, you found some of the things taught in the New Age were disambiguation or twisting of scriptural text. What were some examples of things you read and found the original purpose versus the twisted interpretation you were given?
Jordan: Yeah, I remember one thing when I read about Godâs loving-kindness. That word stuck out to me because, in the New Age, there was something called meta meditation, a loving-kindness meditation that focuses first on the self. So, youâre meditating, focusing on yourself, and giving love to yourself. And then it goes out to other people and returns to yourself. You always start and end with yourself and other people in between, and so youâre giving loving kindness to yourself and others. But when I read about Godâs loving-kindness, and I saw that word, I was like, Oh my gosh, here I am just really glorifying myself in this and thinking that, Oh, because Iâm thinking of others, my intentions are good and pure, not realizingâ
Jonathan: Ultimately, youâre thinking about yourself.
Jordan: Yes. A big part of the New Age is the huge emphasis on self and the glorification of self. So yeah, that was a big one for me, the meta meditation that I learned in the New Age and then seeing that itâs Godâs loving-kindness that all this stems from.
And then the biggest one was I remember doing a meditation, I think it was with Eckhardt Tolle, that one, and he, in this meditation, he said when you meditate, and you ask yourself who you are, youâre probably going to come up with all the wrong answers. And Iâm paraphrasing here, but he said that the real, the correct answer to âWho are you?â when youâre meditating is âI am.â
Jonathan: Whoa!
Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know now as a Christian that is so blasphemous.
Jonathan: Old and New Testament, right?
Jordan: Yes. Yes. So you know you think about this. Youâre sitting there in meditation saying, âI am,â and yeah, now thinking back on it, Iâm justâŠ
Jonathan: Fascinating.
Jordan: Yeah. So blasphemous. And believing, again, that's just like emphasis on the self.
Jonathan: Yeah, and again, back to the garden. I am a god.
Jordan: I am a god, yes. Yeah.
Jonathan: Iâd be curious to hear your thoughts on this. I feel like we are seeing some believers being tempted; itâs very much in the Hollywood culture to combine some New Age with Christianity as a form of getting closer to Christ. I know you talk about the Christ consciousness in your article, which I think is Friedrich Schleiermacher, but because youâre so aware of the New Age practices, you lived it out; maybe youâd give us some examples of where youâre seeing that in churches or individuals and maybe kind of throw out some of the warning signs of where people could be leaning into that, and the red flags are going up for you.
Jordan: Yes. Another phrase for that would be âreligious syncretism.â This means fusing more than one religion or belief to create a new religion. And that's exactly what the New Age isâborrowing from different religions. I would say thereâs so much that can be said about this, where youâre seeing the New Age pervade the church today.
One of those things that Iâve run across a lot lately is yoga in the church, and Christians are turning it into holy yoga and and so taking a practice that comes from Hinduism and Christianizing it. But you canât Christianize a practice that comes from another religion and think that youâre glorifying the God of the Bible. So I see a lot of that happening. I also see even churches not preaching from the Bible, not preaching the gospel, or using the Bible. I had a friend tell me before that he was attending church, and he loved it because they didnât use the bible at all.
Jonathan: Itâs the best church ever.
Jordan: I was thinking, Wow! That's not church.
Jonathan: Yeah, yeah. What's the authority theyâre teaching on?
Jordan: Yeah, yeah. So even that, I would say, is New Age in and of itself. I would also say the law of attraction. You see a lot of that in churchesâname it, and claim it.
Jonathan: Right. Sort of a prosperity gospel kind of, yeah.
Jordan: Yeah, that. So youâre seeing a lot of that come into the churches. Even crystals themselves come into the churches or meditate. But Scripture tells us to meditate on the Word of God, not to empty our thoughts, not to empty our minds of thoughts, but our thoughts are supposed to be focused on what is good and holy.
Jonathan: Yeah, right.
Jordan: So, thereâs that. Along with the law of attraction, thereâs that word of faith. I would also say the whole follow your heart, believe in yourselfâ
Jonathan: Be true to yourself.
Jordan: Yeah, be true to yourself. There is so much emphasis on self, which will also lead you down a road of chasing after what feels good. If youâre following your heart, youâre chasing after what feels good, but that's not what weâre supposed to do as Christians. Weâre supposed to follow Jesus.
Jonathan: Well, and to see that our hearts are deceived ⊠deceitful, wicked, theyâre bent in on themselves, as Calvin says. Theyâre inwardly bent on worshiping themselves. Yeah, that's true, and that's part of pop culture, right? That seems like the motif of almost every childâs movie through Disney. Itâs the belief in yourself, trust in yourself, and you just want to say that won't end well.
Jordan: Itâs not going to end well. No, itâs not. Yeah, I think Jeremiah says that the heart is deceitful.
Jonathan: Thatâs right. There will be people listening to this who have a friend or a relative who may be dabbling in this or caught up in it. What's your suggestion for the best way to start a conversation? Is it just to order many copies of the Son of God or Passion of the Christ and then start showing movies? Obviously, that's how the Lord worked for you. But what are your recommendations for beginning those conversations?
Jordan: When I told my testimony, many people said, âWell, what movie is it?â
Jonathan: We need to go buy it!
Jordan: Yeah. And I want to say even if you watch that movie, it doesnât mean youâll have the same experience that I had. And if you have people who are in the New Age, thereâs a disconnect here that I think Christians are missing. Part of that is understanding the root cause of why people went to the New Age in the first place. So, understanding what it is drew them there first and validating their experience. So if itâs childhood trauma, if youâve had experiences and people are telling you youâre crazy, itâs listening to understand someone to start, instead of jumping down someoneâs throat and saying, âWell, youâre wrong, and this is the truth, and this is what's right,â itâs understanding what brought them there in the first place and validating their experience that got them there.
But then let them know that there is a better way and that the truth is that there is hope in Jesus Christ, a peace that surpasses all understanding in Him, and give your testimony of how Jesus has worked in your life. And so I think if people have loved ones that are stuck in New Age that itâs more of being a good example of Jesus, being the hands and the feet of Jesus, and like I said, listening to understand; knowing thereâs a root cause for why they got there. And I do get pushback from Christians who will say, âWell, you donât want to enable the sin.â But you canât have someone conclude that they are a sinner until theyâve first heard about where theyâre at and why theyâve come to this place. And if they donât understand what that is, then, of course, theyâre not going to want to listen.
I have a friend with whom Iâve been friends for 30 years, and she has been praying for me for just as long. There were times that she would want to speak to me about Jesus and want to talk about the Gospel and would send me books and movies and things like that, and my first reaction was to throw it out. And it wasnât because she was doing anything wrong; it was where I was. And I think people have to understand that itâs not personal. So if you are talking to someone in the New Age and they are not taking what youâre saying and just suddenly becoming a believer, itâs not personal, and that this really is a spiritual battle and youâre told to plant the seed.
Jonathan: One of the fruit of the Spirit is patience.
Jordan: Absolutely. A lifetime of 40 years is a long time to be patient, but if thereâs any encouragement in that, itâs that Iâve spent 13 years in the New Age, my friend has been praying for me for 30 years, and ultimately, I came to Christ. And so for people who are stuck in this, watch them suffer and watch them go down these paths to just stay steadfast in your faith and stay steadfast in prayer. And know that this is a spiritual battle and itâs not personal. Itâs not about you.
Jonathan: And itâs not over.
Jordan: Itâs not over, that's for sure.
Jonathan: In your Gospel Coalition article, you mentioned that youâre working on resources to help guide people in the New Age to freedom in Christ. What are some of those resources? Are they available at the moment? Are we still working on them?
[31:25] Jordan Taylor: Yeah. Unfortunately, I donât have anything available yet. I wish I did. Iâm pausing social media at this point. Since my testimony went viral on Facebook, my platform has become kind of crazy, and I always get DMs. I have a lot of similar or common questions that come up or topics that come up, so Iâd like toâright now, while Iâm off of social media, Iâm kind of working on some content and information to put out there so that people can find something to either find encouragement for the Christians that have people that are in the New Age.
Or encourage people who are in the New Age and want out. Believe it or not, some people are in the New Age and are being called by Jesus, and they know it and are struggling toâ
Jonathan: They feel imprisoned.
Jordan: Yes. So, Iâm working on some resources. I donât know when they will all be available, but for right now, I will probably be off social media through Easter, and Iâm hoping that come springtime, Iâll have some stuff to put out there for people.
Jonathan: Wow, that's wonderful. I think itâs an absolutely needed resource, again, as weâve said, in this day and age where young people are looking for answers, theyâre dealing with hurts, and theyâre turning to all sorts of thingsâdifferent religions, different ⊠and New Age is definitely one of those near the forefront of those options. As you said, that tends to come up for Google searches, yoga, meditation, and everything else. And so, Jordan Taylor, weâre just so grateful for how the Lord is using you, and we pray that He will equip you with what you need as you put those resources together. Weâll keep our listeners up to speed as those become available. Your article on the Gospel Coalition, for those who are interested, is called âI Left New Age for Jesus.â And that's thegospelcoalition.org.
Jordan, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us on Candid Conversations.
Jordan: Thank you so much for having me.
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With the average day filled with endless smartphone scrolling and binge-watching, how often do we pause to reflect on the deeper longing behind our screen time? Join Jonathan to explore the complex relationship between modern entertainment and our spiritual well-being.
Jonathan shares the balance between enjoying life's pleasures and not letting them overshadow our primary purpose: to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Inspired by insights from the digital age and the wisdom of scripture, this reflection confronts the challenges of navigating a world designed to capture our attention, discussing the impact of entertainment on our spiritual journey.
Listen now to receive Biblical insight on how to live intentionally in a distraction-filled world, finding joy and purpose in God's presence above all else.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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In this NEW episode of Candid Conversations, host Jonathan Youssef welcomes Dave Hubbard back to the program. Dave is a former NFL football player and pastor at The Church of The Apostles. In this encouraging episode, he shares his rich experiences and insights on serving both within the church and in the broader community. With a background that spans professional sports to full-time ministry, Dave offers a unique perspective on the importance of active service and its challenges and rewards.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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Jonathan sits with internationally renowned author, apologist, evangelist, and former investigative journalist Lee Strobel. Known for his bestselling book, The Case for Christ, Strobel shares insights from his remarkable journey from skepticism to faith. The discussion then turns to his latest book, Is God Real? Exploring the Ultimate Question of Life, where he blends his investigative skills with theological inquiry.
The episode offers an enlightening perspective on the recurring question of God's existence, backed by logical arguments, scientific evidence, and profound personal experiences. Listen and then share it with a friend who may benefit from this conversation.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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The question that weighs heavily on so many hearts and minds is, "How do I pray for and reach my unsaved loved ones for Christ?"
On today's episode of Candid, Jonathan Youssef unpacks this question and provides Biblical insight into why we pray, the relationship between divine sovereignty and human responsibility, and the blessing we have in bearing witness to and praying for our unsaved loved ones.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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Explore the transformative power of Godâs Word in this new Candid Conversations episode. Learn how it acts as a guardian, strengthens character, sustains through life's pressures, and heals the spirit. Join Jonathan as he reflects on the cleansing, covering, and correction offered through God's Word as outlined in Psalm 119.
Listen now, discover practical ways to integrate Godâs Word into your daily life, and experience the enrichment available only in the Truth of Christ.
After you listen to this episode, you may have your own questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpod
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As we walk closely with Christ, there will be times when we must choose between the calling God has put on our lives and something else like a relationship, friendship, family, or career choices.
Can you imagine being at the top of an illustrious career when God asks you to leave it for vocational ministry? When most people revel in success and stay to move up to their dream position, today's Candid Conversations guest chose to follow the call of God on his life to serve Christ and His church in pastoral ministry.
Rocky Seto, former Seattle Seahawks assistant head coach, talks with Jonathan about his journey to football, salvation, and rise in coaching from college to the NFL. Rocky gets candid about his struggles and the deep calling to serve Christ and His church in pastoral ministry.
You don't want to miss this episode. It is a beautiful reminder of God's goodness when we delight in Him and are faithful to live out His calling.
After you listen to this episode, you may have your own questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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Have you ever wondered what God's call is for your life? Do you think about what He created you to do? Do you wrestle and ask if you are in the center of His will? These are questions we all wrestle with periodically. If you are in that place now or know someone who is, today's podcast is for you.
Jonathan welcomes Clay Kirkland back to Candid Conversations. Clay is a life coach who served 18 years as the Director of Staff Development at The Wesley Foundation at The University of Georgia, where he mentored and coached thousands of young adults. He is also a certified Strengths coach and consultant who helps people discover and operate in their God-given strengths.
Together, Jonathan and Clay will navigate deep questions of purpose using Scripture as their guide. Join them now.
To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
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In this new reflection on renewal, Jonathan Youssef delves into the power of the new year as a time to reflect on our faith with a powerful message from Hebrews 13:5-6. First, he reminds us of God's unchanging promise never to leave us and explains how understanding this truth will allow us to live without fear, embracing contentment and courage in Christ.
Join Jonathan and be encouraged to reflect on how God is shaping you to be more like Christ and to serve others in the coming year. He will guide you in writing prayers to seek a renewed mind and spirit and to commit to ministering love and hope. As we review these prayers, we're urged to thank God for His faithfulness and step into the new year with joy and anticipation for His continued work.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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The Christmas season is ending, but before it's over, we wanted to share some special Christmas Caroling with Mac Powell and Jonathan Youssef.
Mac Powell is the worship leader at The Church of The Apostles. He is also a Grammy award-winning recording artist. In this Christmas episode, Mac and Jonathan have a lot of fun talking about their favorite Christmas traditions, songs, and the incredible reality of Godâs saving love through His son Jesus. Oh, and yes⊠Mac will be serenading us with a few of his favorite tunes. It's a special episode you definitely donât want to miss!
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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The Christmas season often captivates us with its superficial wondersâexchanging presents, festive gatherings, and decorating our spaces. In this new Christmas reflection, Jonathan warns that these things can sometimes overshadow the reason for the Advent season, preventing us from focusing on the profound meaning of ChristmasâEmmanuel, God with us.
After you listen to this episode, you may have questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
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To give to Leading The Way's Triple Matching Challenge, please visit us at https://ltw.org
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Could you be missing a miracle of God? Are you too busy for God's intrusion into your life?
God took on flesh in Bethlehem on a night when the streets were bustling with congestion created by a mandatory census. People were busy, but the Messiah quietly came into the world. Some stopped what they were doing and followed God's prompting, but so many missed it.
How will you spend Christmas? Will you join the hustle and bustle and miss the true gift of the season? Or, will you slow down, seek the heart of the Father, and prepare to encounter the living Christ?
Join us as Jonathan shares a special Christmas reflection and reminds us that the true beauty of the Christmas story is this- God's power makes regular intrusions even when we make no room. No room in the Inn? God still took on flesh. No room in your holiday traditions? God still calls to your heart. No room in your isolation? The Savior still invites you to intimacy with Him. We pray this episode will encourage you to make room for Christ this Christmas and each day that follows.
After you listen to this episode, you may have your own questions. We would love to hear from you! To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/Candid
Also, join the conversation on our social media pages:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpod
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To give to Leading The Way's Triple Matching Challenge, please visit us at https://ltw.org
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