Episodes
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In 2004, the Indian men's cricket team toured Pakistan after 15 years. It was a momentous tour, and Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee is said to have told Sourav Ganguly not just to win games but also win hearts.
The Indian team did both. They won the test and ODI series. On their return home, some of them had to be ushered out of the airport secretly because of the teeming crowds outside.
Sport and politics are closely related in the subcontinent. That tour was conducted to create a feel-good factor of sorts before the general elections. A few months before, the BJP had won state elections in Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, and Chhattisgarh and was on a high. Prime Minister Vajpayee was the only one skeptical of the 'feel-good factor'.
"Jaswant Singh looked at me and said 'there goes your campaign'."
Prathap Suthan, then the National Creative Director of Grey advertising, led the campaign. He says the 'India Shining' campaign was designed for urban India and people with money to spend. It wasn't a campaign for the masses. He narrates an interesting cricket match-related incident: India was playing Australia in an ODI series, and Sehwag was going hammer and tongs. The camera turned to a person in the crowd. And what was he holding? An India Shining ad written by him. In the commentary box, Sunil Gavaskar said (paraphrasing) India is shining, alluding to the campaign slogan. It felt as if everyone in the country was caught up in the fervor.
With wins in three states in the assembly elections, the party made an error. Then Deputy Prime Minister LK Advani wanted the India Shining campaign to become the election campaign. This was the beginning of the end. Jaswant Singh, then the external affairs minister, looked at Prathap and said 'there goes your campaign' because he knew it wasn't created for the masses.
"It became a Frankenstein no one could control."
It's hard to control a juggernaut, even if it is heading in the wrong direction. When the Deputy Prime Minister issues an order, it's hard to say no, and the India Shining campaign became the election campaign - something it wasn't intended for. Then came the Aam Aadmi campaign created by Jayshree's team at Leo Burnett which sucked the wind out of the India Shining campaign.
"People were blaming me for the loss."
The BJP made tactical blunders ahead of the polls, beginning with preponing them by six months. The decision to go with a campaign not created for the masses was another blunder. But it's easy to blame the person who created the campaign instead of those in power, and Prathap was at the receiving end of this.
"We believed in the campaigns when working on them.
Both Jayshree and Prathap said they believed in the campaigns fully when working on them. Both of them have been at the receiving end of trolls, and Prathap said he also received threats when working on the campaign. When I asked them if it is important to believe in a political party's ideology before working for them, both said it's important to see it professionally and not get emotionally caught up. Jayshree says even if the BJP had called her, she would have worked on the campaign with a full heart.
Today, Prathap no longer works on political campaigns as he finds it too murky.
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The late Hal Riney, one of advertising's most legendary copywriters, wrote the campaign for Ronald Reagan's re-election campaign in 1984. Apparently, President Reagan teared up when he saw 'It's morning in America' for the first time.
Memorable political campaigns are a rarity, and working on a General Election campaign is even rarer.
Jayshree Sundar was the branch head of Leo Burnett when her office got the chance to pitch for the Congress party's campaign for the 2004 General Elections. They assumed it to be a prank until they realized it wasn't. And life would never be the same again.
"I just got by"
Jayshree's early years weren't remarkable. In her own words, she just got by. But that was just a decoy for her later years which made up for her supposed lack of achievement in her early years. She went on to a top college and joined Lintas, which was and still is one of India's most renowned ad agencies.
"We went with one idea and sold it"
It’s hard to reconcile with the advertising era of the 80s and 90s when agencies were seen as partners of the clients and not mere vendors. Jayshree says they would go to meetings confidently with one idea, a solid strategy, and sell it. She also speaks fondly about her time at Lintas where she got to work in offices across the country - Kolkata, Chennai, and Delhi. Eventually, a slew of circumstances caused her to move on and join Leo Burnett. She describes the difference between the two agencies as one leading with strategy (Lintas) and the other being more creative focused (Leo Burnett). This allowed her to experience both ends of the spectrum. It was also here that she got to work on the General Election campaign for the Congress Party in 2004.
“Politicians learn very fast"
A political party isn’t your typical client. You are dealing with people who can shape policy and the direction of the country if elected. When I asked her if one needed to believe in the party before working on an election campaign, she says you need to be professional irrespective of political affiliation. In the course of the conversation, she says she dealt with Jairam Ramesh, Salman Khurshid, and Motilal Vora regularly. They were also tasked with proof-checking copy over and above the agency. For instance, Manmohan Singh (who would become Prime Minister after the election) would check Gurmukhi translation, Pranab Mukherjee (who would hold multiple portfolios like Defence, Finance and eventually become President of the country) would check Bengali translation. These things don’t happen on regular brand work, however big the brand.
Another surprising thing was that contrary to perception, the politicians she encountered were always on time and it was the agency folks huffing and puffing to be on time to meetings. With the ‘Aam Aadmi’ campaign, the Congress party punctured the ‘India Shining’ campaign and the Congress, under the aegis of the UPA, came back to power. Months of sleeping for 3-4 hours a day culminated in victory. In 2007, Jayshree walked away from advertising to spend more time with family and also because of the changing nature of the industry where agencies were treated more like vendors.
Today, Jayshree is an author, teacher, and raconteur of tales. In fact, it was a lecture where she was speaking about the 2004 election campaign that triggered this. She overshot the time by more than an hour but the class still sat in rapt attention. In an age where presentations give competition to sleeping ills in terms of putting people to sleep, her presentation was an antithesis.
One day, I hope to sneak into a class where she is teaching and listen.
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While doing his MBA, Sumanto taught to support himself financially. Young and nervous, he was a target for trouble makers. Then one incident changed everything.
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After completing his Master's, Sumanto did an MBA. Here, he taught students to support himself financially. It also taught him a life lesson.
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If you type Sumanto Chattopadhyay's name in Google, he is described as an actor. And by his admission, he has a lot of people asking him about his blink and miss role in the popular movie - Piku.
If you type 'English Nut' on Youtube, you'll see Sumanto in another avatar - simplifying phrases and words and English. You'll also catch him interviewing the likes of Shashi Tharoor and Ruskin Bond. The page has a loyal following (and over 140k followers). The best part? It's not clickbait. No trends are being chased, and no trending music is being used. It's genuine, honest content - an oasis of sense in a sea of mindlessness.
And, finally, he also happens to have a day job as one of India's most well-recognized Creative Chiefs. He's been a part of the Ogilvy system for most of his career and today is Chairman of ad agency 82.5, Ogilvy's second agency.
"I wanted to delay working as much as possible"
Advertising is (or was) the confluence of misfits, and Sumanto is no different. That is precisely why he didn't stop with one Master's Degree but has two. During his MBA, he studied advertising and realized he could make a career in it. Another aside - he won a slogan competition in college and won a trip to France to be a part of Bastille Day. The trip never came to fruition on account of an Air Traffic Controllers Strike.
"I knew it wasn't a passing fad"
Advertising, like any industry, has seen a world of change over the last decade. Established agencies are competing with hotshot freelancers and influencers for attention and have been accused of not keeping up with the times. Sumanto says he started the English Nut because he loved the English language and it gave him a chance to understand a new medium better. Going by the popularity of his Youtube channel, it looks like he has found an alternative career, leave alone understanding a new medium.
"If the right role comes along, I'll jump into it"
Movies and advertising have always been a kind of unholy matrimony —many advertising professionals dream of breaking through the film industry at some point. Sumanto's peers like Prasoon Joshi, Balki, Rensil D'Silva and Juhi Chaturvedi have already made the leap.
But Sumanto is a little different - instead of directing or writing scripts, he's been in front of the camera. He's honing his craft and has taken acting lessons in this regard (you can see the rub-off effect in the English Nut videos).
He also let me in on another secret - he's now working on a book (I reckon he finally got tired of writing forwards for other people's books).
With no more rungs to climb on the advertising ladder, he says he's looking to take his acting more seriously.
And we'll all wait to see how this script unfolds.
PS: I mispronounced Sumanto's name for most of the podcast but being the person he is, he corrected me only in the end.
Sorry for that, Sumanto and thanks for sharing your journey with us.
Check out The English Nut page here:
https://www.youtube.com/c/TheEnglishNut/videos
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Many people dream of being an author. No one dreams that their first book will be about their battle with cancer. But that was the twist in the tale in Shormishta Mukhrjee's life.
"I had no clue what I wanted to do"
A casual trip to an ad agency with a friend who was to give a copy test turned into a career. While her friend didn't get the job, Shormishta got the job of copywriter in HTA (what is today Wunderman Thompson). She moved cities and eventually settled in Mumbai, the hub of Indian advertising. In a bid to have more control, she set up her own boutique agency, Rickshaw advertising. When the digital bug bit, she moved to Flying Cursor, an agency that skewed more towards the digital side of things.
"The client replied asking me what I was doing replying at this ungodly hour"
Working in advertising and good health are sort of an oxymoron, and Shormishta didn't buck this trend. Waking up in the middle of the night and checking mail wasn't anathema. That was until she replied to a mail at 3.00 am to a client who was traveling and the client asked her why she was replying to a mail at that hour. That was when she started taking her health seriously.
And then cancer struck.
"I wasn't ashamed of my body"
Cancer ravages your body (and your soul). And until medicine finds a better way, cancer treatments will also ravage body and soul. In the book, Shormishta writes about getting her breast reconstructed, a delicate topic. While she wondered if that was sharing too much, she went ahead as she didn't want to take any half measures.
While the title 'Cancer you picked the wrong girl' sounds like a self-help book, it's nothing but and if you're looking for a light breezy read, this might not cut it for you.
"Cancer opened my eyes to how privileged I was"
No one likes hospitals. The smell of antiseptic, pale and fearful faces, and the never ending wait times. But when you have cancer, hospitals become your second home. While Shormishta began her treatment in a government hospital, she switched to a private one. She saw first hand the overworked doctors, nurses and a health care system tethering at the brink.
"I was the best client"
From spending an entire life writing for clients, writing her own story was therapeutic for Shormishtha. She didn't have to worry about things like who she was targeting. All she did was tell her truth. She adds that while her husband has read the book, her father finds it too hard to read it. On the other hand, her mother read the book and has assumed the role of a promoter (unpaid of course), telling anyone she meets about her daughter's debut book.
At the start of the conversation, I told Shormishta how Lance Armstrong's book was the last book I read on cancer. That was a whole level of saccharine. So it was refreshing to read an Indian author (writing her debut book) write about her cancer ordeal in a matter of fact way.
Shormishta says another book is on the horizon.
Also, all proceeds from the sale of the book are going to Tata Memorial.
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Not much has been written about women's cricket. The Fire Burns Blue is a book that seeks to turn the tide and bring the evolution of women's cricket to the fore. Thoroughly researched and beautifully written, the book goes behind the scenes of women's cricket in India. On more than one occasion, it seemed as though women's cricket had turned a corner. But the last year, where the women's team didn't play cricket for almost a whole year while the men's team played an IPL and toured Australia brings back the inequality that still exists. What we speak about in the episode:
a) The T20 World Cup final in March 2020 that saw a full house at the MCG
b) People and organizations who have helped women's cricket over the years
c) Karunya's partnership with her late co-author, Sidhanta Patnaik
d) What Karunya hopes to write in the sequel
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Venkat Iyer left a well-paying corporate job to turn full-time organic farmer. He chronicled his experiences in a delightful book called Moong over Microchips. This episode was eye-opening in more ways than one. Things we discussed:
a) His decision to quit corporate life and dive headlong into farming
b) The differences between city and village life
c) How the farm laws proposed by the government affect farmers
d) Is it worth investing in a farming collective
e) The increased awareness in organic farming
f) A typical day in his life
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Sai Ganesh and a few of his friends wanted to make quizzing more accessible and fun. Over numerous rounds of drinks, they came up with the idea for India Wants to Know - India's first panel quiz show. In this episode we speak about:
a) Quizzing evolving over the years
b) How access to information means everyone can be a quizzer
c) How India wants to Know is different from your regular quiz
d) Why shifting to online after the pandemic actually helped India Wants to Know
e) Future plans for India Wants to Know
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Madhavi Das quit her corporate job to start Bamboo Tribe, a sustainable fashion brand. But the garment industry is a tough place for outsiders. After 3 years, she inched back into corporate life. In this episode, we speak about:
a. The reason for her quitting her well-paying job to get into the garment industryb. The people she had to deal with
c. The additional skillsets she had to pick up when she turned entrepreneur (just for context, she is an IIM grad)
d. What fascinated her about bamboo
e. Buyer personas and the changing tastes of the consumer
f. The moment she realized that she needed to get back into a full-time job
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Vinay Prashant worked for 18 years in the corporate sector before jumping headlong into the social sector. He co-founded Tamaala, an enterprise that works to promote and sustain rural art forms. In this episode, we speak about:
a) Why rural art forms are dying
b) Why do people migrate from villages
c) The loss of skillsets after artisans move to the city
d) How Tamaala is trying to bridge historic art forms with modern technology
e) How COVID 19 has affected artisans and Tamaala
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In times of crisis, people always turn to leaders for direction. It's also a testing time for leaders. We have seen some heads of state mislead their people and make false proclamations. At the same time, few leaders have emerged as torchbearers in crisis management.
Srijata Bhatnagar has made a career being a guide and mentor to leaders. She believes that leadership is a skill, not some inborn talent that only a few a lucky to have.
A work and leadership experience that shook me led me on a path to understanding leadership better. There is no perfect leader but one thing is sure - we can all become better leaders if we care.
In our conversation, I got a chance to ask her:
a) How can you teach someone leadership
b) What can you learn from a bad work/leadership experience
c) What set her off on this unique path
d) How do leaders approach her
e) How easy, or tough, is it to change after assuming a position of leadership
d) What will the post-COVID 19 leaders look like
I hope this conversation sets you on the path to becoming a better leader.
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The Covid 19 virus has brought the world to its knees.
While there is a lot of information (and misinformation) going around, I wanted to delve a little deeper into this crisis and understand viruses better.
Dr. Ananya Tupaki is a microbiologist with a keen interest in infectious diseases. Here are some of the things we cover in this episode:
- How do medical professionals know that they are battling a new and unknown virus and how important is identifying patient zero?
-India is a crowded country and some people are paying scant regard to social distancing. Why is this so important now?
Though Covid 19 has a fatality rate that isn't as high as some other viruses, why should we take it seriously?
-The last few outbreaks (SARS, MERS, Ebola) didn't spread across the globe. What is different about the Coronavirus?
- How our choices and way of life are bringing us closer to forests and animals that are carrying potentially deadly viruses.
What are some of the lessons we can learn from this tragedy?
Thanks, Raghav Kini for enabling this and Dr. Ananya Tupaki-Sreepurna for coming on my podcast and explaining things in a way the layman can understand.
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Sustainable is trending.
But what does it really mean?
Most of us don't really think about our consumption patterns, especially since buying just requires the click of a button. It's just easier to buy instead of taking the trouble to upcycle or consume less.
Shailaja quit her corporate job to begin Rimagined, an organization dedicated to upcycling. Now, upcycling and recycling are two very different things and in this episode, you will know why.
We are now into the second month of the year and most of our New Year's Resolutions have long since faded into oblivion.
But if you want to re-imagine waste and how you can do your bit for the planet, this episode is for you.
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Kunj was an advertising creative director who quit her full-time job to follow her varied passions that include travel and cooking. Today, she takes up select projects, travels, and has already hosted two food pop-ups.
In a world where everyone wants to be a digital nomad and influencer, I sat down with Kunj to ask her what exactly it is like to live off the grid. Is it all about working on top of mountains and on beaches? Is it a life devoid of any worries?
Listen to the podcast to know what Kunj has to say about life after stepping away from the rat race.
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I'm not sure when it hit me.
It must have been at one of those soulless office parties where the high point was the gossip.
Don't pinch me. I wish I could sleep through this.
Seriously. What was I even doing there? There's got to be more to life and work than this.
You know those conversations you have with people that stir your imagination and make you believe that anything is possible? Exchanges that leave you energized instead of deflated. A lot of them happen over a coffee, or a chai, or a beer.
There is this Bangalore concept of By Two Coffee where two people share a cup of coffee. It's more for the conversation and the company, the coffee just working as a lubricant.
There is no shortage of inspiration around us, just that we don't choose to see or acknowledge it.
You open the newspaper and read about a motley bunch of people that are creating a super cool app or are experimenting with an idea instead of just talking about it. Or a corporate slave who exchanged their pay cheque for organic farming.
You hear about a friend or colleague who has gone ahead and actually created something instead of expending all of their energies on shallow water-cooler conversation or gossip sessions that end with a bruising headache and you ask yourself -
"How did they get the courage to do that."
"I wish I could pick their brains a little."
"Do they have access to a secret code that I don't?"
That's precisely why I started this podcast.
To have conversations with these people I read about in newspapers. And from friends.
What are the odds of you randomly asking someone you find interesting - "hey, can I pick your brains" and them replying"sure".
But I found a magic bullet. Sort of.
"Hey, would you like to be on my podcast?"
That shifts conversation.
"Podcast. That sounds interesting. Tell me more."
They say you're the average of the five people that you surround yourself with. It's true. The whole term crab mentality comes from the behavior of crabs when they are placed in a bucket. Any crab that tries to escape is immediately brought back down by the others.
I thought a podcast would be a great way to meet people who inspired me in some way, people I could learn from.
When something doesn't turn out the way we want it to, we have a list of excuses.
"The client didn't buy it."
"The boss scuttled my idea."
"Not enough money."
But this podcast is fully handled by me - the editing and the writing. I get to say - "here, I made this." It's all on me.
The preparing, recording, and editing takes time. But I also get to create something from scratch. I write about my guests, because, well, I am a writer.
Not being a rich industrialist's kid who has all the resources in the world to make a crappy album doesn't bother me.
So stop by when you have a little time.
Or when you need a different perspective.
When you need an escape from mind-numbing conversation.
Welcome to Coffee By Two, a place where interesting conversations happen over a podcast.
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