Episodes
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Figs chats with podcast host (and relationship skeptic) Nicolas Gregoriades about the most common relationship dynamic between men and women.
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Are your concerns usually met with defensiveness? You might be stuck in a feedback loop… Figs explains why constructive criticism is so difficult, and what to do about it.
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Missing episodes?
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Figs and Steph discuss the pros and pitfalls of the growing trend of partners "diagnosing" each other with personality disorders.
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Get an early release of the previously therapists-exclusive beat-by-beat breakdown: https://get.empathi.com/comehere/please-like-me-early-access
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In "The Truth About Codependency", Figs explains how to actually help couples in a codependent relationshipâstarting with critiquing the term.
To do so, Figs explores 3 possible uses for "codependency":
Couples featuring a partner "Dependent" on substances (alcoholism, addiction) and their "Co-dependent" partner"Overly attached" couples high in conflict who think they "Just need to learn to be independent"Couples featuring a partner with trauma around having needs being unacceptableIn every single case, you first must normalize, normalize, normalize.
When the term "Codependent" was created to describe loved ones of addicted individuals and their behavior, they were missing an ingredient essential for understanding human behavior: Attachment Theory.
From day one, human beings need to be emotionally bonded to survive.
Everything supposed "codependent" individuals do and feel in relation to their adult primary attachment figure makes absolute sense in this context. This isn't something to be fixed.
In cases featuring substance abuse, each partner's actions make sense, but they will not be able to proceed to the next step until the addicted partner(s) can be fully there for the other.
After couples understand their relationship system, that there's nothing wrong with either of them, and that their behaviors are actually born out of a need for each other's love, one partner is able to ask for their needs to be met.
This is where, as Figs describes it, a "threshold moment" occurs. Either they ask for their needs to be met, their partner is able to do so, and they experience profound emotional healing, or they see their partner isn't able to be there for them and get to say, "No."
The final step is to integrate what has happenedâremembering there's nothing wrong with you, and asking for your needs to be met from a place of vulnerability and connection is more rewarding than placating or hiding.
You now have the ability to do this process, repair conflicts and heal wounds from the past, over and over again for the rest of your life.
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In "How to Fix a Toxic Relationship," Figs breaks down what a toxic relationship is (and isn't) and the steps necessary to repair it.
For the purposes of this conversation, a toxic relationship is one in which the couple is spending days, weeks, monthsâa significant amount of timeâin "disconnection" without meaningful repair.
This can include individual negative cycles (conflicts) that persist or escalate dramatically, and/or it can mean the couple is spending very little time in connection over a longer period of time.
Most importantly, couples in a toxic relationship are not having meaningful repairâa multi-dimensional empathetic experience wherein they're able to be there for each other lovingly, feel their individual pain, and feel empathy for both of them together.
So, in order to fix a toxic relationship, Figs leads couples through three stages:
Stage 1: Break down the negative cycle and help both partners recognize the tragedy they are both engaged in together, cognitively and emotionally. This is the most difficult step in the process.
Stage 2: Go deeply into one partner's pain, organize it, have them feel it fully, and ask for their needs to be metâthen, their partner shows up for them. Do this in both directions.
Stage 3: Help the couple integrate what they accomplished. They are not "toxic" or broken, and they can repeat this process of repair for the rest of their lives.
Please note that if you are experiencing domestic abuse, it is not currently possible for you to safely attempt to navigate these stages. Reach out for help online at https://www.thehotline.org or by phone at 1-800-799-7233.
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In "Attachment in HBO's Succession," Karen joins Figs to discuss a particular scene in Succession (S4E2) as a representation of deep attachment-based wounding.
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Couples Therapy Works: How do you know if your partner's behavior is unacceptable? Karen joins Figs to answer this important client question.
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In "Seeing The Negative Cycle" Figs and Karen take a close look at the makeup of The Cycle, a concept from Emotionally-Focused Therapy.
A cycle is the negative "infinity loop" every couple inevitably encounters in their relationship, which shows up for partners as conflict they get into over and over.
Download the infinity loop sheet: https://get.empathi.com/episodes/seeing-the-negative-cycle
Figs describes it as a river that is always running underneath your house, but which only rises above ground-level from time to time. The emotional bonding dynamic in your relationship is ever-present, but is most easily accessed in moments of conflict.
To recognize that you are in a negative cycle, Karen suggests paying attention to the language you are using (such as "You alwaysâ" and "You neverâ"), and to what is going on in yourself (are you triggered or reacting with fight/flight/freeze/fawn behaviors)?
Figs explains that if you are experiencing any of the 4 quadrants of the infinity loop, then you are in a cycle.
These quadrants are⊠You are hurting, you have a negative judgment of your partner, your partner is hurting, and your partner has a negative judgment of you.
Each of these feed into and result from each other, and so if one of those elements is present, Figs emphasizes that it's highly likely they are all present.
All roads to a better relationship pass through "We are in a system together."
Understanding The Cycle is the first step.
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In "Behind the Therapists" Karen and Figs use the feeling of being overextended to explore 3 "roses" and 1 "thorn" about being a couples therapist, each.
Karen finds it rewarding toâŠ
Take desperate and confused couples and organize what is really happening for them.Help others (thereby feeling valuable as a person enough to "exist for today.")Experience couples on the edge of giving up on the relationship become open-hearted.Karen finds it most difficult to bear the moments when a couple is stuck and she has a hard time holding them in a frame of hope.
Figs is fulfilled byâŠ
How alive couples therapy isâhe has to show up for the couple in the moment, no matter what.Going deeper and deeper into sadness, hopelessness, and despair with a couple, trusting that they'll come through closer.The performance and artistry of a session.The most difficult sessions for Figs are when a couple doesn't trust him yetâthey're not in alliance.
"Research has shown that a simple act of kindness directed toward another improves the functioning of the immune system and stimulates production of serotonin in both the recipient of the kindness and the person extending the kindness.
Even more amazing is that persons observing the act of kindness have similar beneficial results. Imagine this: kindness extended, received, or observed beneficially impacts the physical health and feelings of everyone involved.â â Dr. Wayne W. Dyer
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"Why He Withdraws" is a follow-up to the last Figs & Teale episode, "Pursuer Problems," and it's Figs' turn for an "affect assembly" with Teale's help.
After just a bit of stalling, Figs describes a recent negative judgment of Teale after she didn't text him when she was out with her friends like he asked her to and then went out paddling the next morning before he woke up.
He describes these judgments as "inconsiderate," and thenâhinting at the deeper vulnerabilityâ"hypocritical" and "unreasonable."
Figs, in feeling not considered by Teale (a more classically Pursuer sensitivity) actually started to access all the times he felt judged as the inconsiderate one (his deeper Withdrawer "not enough" sensitivity).
He then, in touch with those feelings of not being good enough, tried to be "good" by not outwardly expressing those negative judgments of Tealeâwhich Figs now knows was not actually the "right" thing to do.
While walking through Figs' negative judgments and feeling not good enough, Teale demonstrates her acceptance and love of Figsâwhich is hard for Figs, who is struggling to let it in, and who feels like it's unacceptable not to be able to.
In voicing that, however, Figs can see that Teale is also able to hold that "unacceptable" part of Figs, and he is able to experience relief and connection.
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What do you do when there are no moves left?
In "Impossible Moments" Figs and Karen discuss a moment every couple will experience throughout their relationshipâbeing so reactive and so hurt they are simply unable to move forward.
This can show up as a conflict in the course of a normal day, such as Figs and Teale experienced in the example Figs shared, or it can show up when two people are very close to ending things, as was the case with Karen's clients.
Figs explains that because couples are experiencing emotional bonding trauma very deeply in those moments, if a therapist can hold them in their feelings of abandonment or rejection, they will reach for each other from that place of vulnerability and be able to have a transformational experience.
Figs and Karen also discuss the value of "meta-processing" for integrating moments of healing in a couple's relationshipâfor impossible moments, and in relation to the last Relationship Experts episode with Teale.
Couples Therapy Works is a new series from the Come Here To Me team delving into the complex work of couples therapy from the ground up. Each episode will feature one or more of Empathiâs own counselors as they examine the truths and challenges of relationship repair.
To submit a question for Figs and Karen to answer, email [email protected] or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for counseling, quizzes, and courses.
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The balancing act of couples therapy takes center stage in "Back From Betrayal" as Figs and Karen break down the process of bringing couples who are grappling with a betrayal to repairing and strengthening their relationship.
As compassionate witnesses, Empathi couples therapists guide couples toward "all needs met" moments, which means exploring their vulnerable perspectives in a way so that each member feels understood and is able to empathetically hear what the other partner is sharing.
With a betrayal such as an affair, the "betrayer" often wants to "get back to good" as soon as possible. In this case, Figs and Karen emphasize experiencing and exploring the negative feelings resulting from the betrayal which the "betrayer" is trying to avoid.
As couples therapists, they will explore deeply the many different kinds of betrayal that the "betrayed" has felt for their benefit, but also so that the "betrayer" can recognize it and emulate that empathetic support.
Then, there is space to explore the "betrayer"'s pain in the present moment and what they were seeking through the affair or other betrayal.
Couples Therapy Works is a new series from the Come Here To Me team delving into the complex work of couples therapy from the ground up. Each episode will feature one or more of Empathiâs own counselors as they examine the truths and challenges of relationship repair.
To submit a question for Figs and Karen to answer, email [email protected] or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for counseling, quizzes, and courses.
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In "Breakup Empathy" Figs and Karen examine why empathy is the essential ingredient in their work with couples, even when they part ways.
"Empathy" in this case is not just a person feeling compassion and understanding their partner, it's the ability for both partners to see the relationship as a whole and experience empathy for each person in the system, together.
But before it can be experienced, couples will have, say, six beats of timeâminutes, hours, daysâwherein they cannot control their reactivity and reliance on "the story of other." Even for experienced couples therapists in relationship, the moment is lost.
It's important for couples to not try and prevent those six beats of reactivity, but to work on reaching "beat seven"âthat moment of empathy for themselves, their partner, and both of them together.
Even when couples therapy clients decide to sever their bond, this empathy is essential for each partner's healthy understanding of relationships and themselves. Otherwise, not only can they carry resentment which negatively affects their future relationships, they may harbor negative core beliefs about themselves such as "I'm too much" and "I'm not enough."
Couples Therapy Works is a new series from the Come Here To Me team delving into the complex work of couples therapy from the ground up. Each episode will feature one or more of Empathiâs own counselors as they examine the truths and challenges of relationship repair.
To submit a question for Figs and Karen to answer, email [email protected] or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for counseling, quizzes, and courses.
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In "Pursuer Problems" Figs asks Teale to model moving from a negative "story of other" (blaming and criticizing your partner) to a self-compassionate "story of self" from the perspective of a "Pursuer" in the relationship.
As a Pursuer, Teale is usually more sensitive to feelings of being left alone, abandoned, and not prioritized by her partner. In couples therapy sessions, the Pursuer partner tends to have a harder time letting go of the negative view of their partner because their "pursuit" of closeness is seen as a sign of love, while a Withdrawer's distance is attributed to apathy.
But, as Figs and Teale discuss, recognizing that each partner co-creates a negative system together is an essential part of relationship repair.
Teale recognizes this, but to understand it deeply she must start with herselfâmove from blaming Figs to examining which "Flavor of love" she is not getting and how it hurts. Then, she can share that vulnerable story with Figs and together they can build on it to create a shared narrative which includes Figs' experiences.
Relationship Experts Walk The Talk is a deep dive into the struggles, cycles, and joys of relationship from couple and counselors Figs and Teale. Learn how to repair conflict and understand each other through their personal therapy sessions, storytelling, and expertise as couples therapists.
To submit a question for Figs and Teale to answer, email [email protected] or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for counseling, quizzes, and courses.
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A listener's relationship issue is highlighted in "Married to a Workaholic" as Figs and Karen take a nuanced look at a system they've seen hundreds of times in couples.
In this case, the listener's husband is prone to answering work texts while they are spending quality time together, resulting in painful disconnection and conflict.
Figs and Karen carefully break down each perspective within this systemâthe listener Pursuer ("Are you there for me?") and the "texter" Withdrawer ("Am I enough for you?)âusing systems theory and attachment theory.
Throughout the episode they do deeper and deeper into the experience of the listener and the "texter," accessing their negative judgments of each other, the ways they protest not feeling loved, and their unmet love needs.
Couples Therapy Works is a new series from the Come Here To Me team delving into the complex work of couples therapy from the ground up. Each episode will feature one or more of Empathiâs own counselors as they examine the truths and challenges of relationship repair.
To submit a question for Figs and Karen to answer, email [email protected] or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for counseling, quizzes, and courses.
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In "Don't try this at home," Teale and Figs give each other feedbackâsomething that is not a good idea when couples are fighting or feeling reactive with each other.
They take turns asking each other two questions: "What is my best quality?" and "What do I need to work on?"
From a place of de-escalation (not in conflict, feeling connected), they are able to express the qualities they are most impressed by, andâin both casesâhow that same quality can have a negative side.
Figs values Teale's ability to approach the world with excitement and positivity. He also notices how Teale's efforts to fit a lot into the day can create overwhelm in himself and in Teale.
Teale recognizes Figs' creativity in work and daily life, as well as the ways his passionate focus can lead to a sense of disconnection from her and from his life.
Both of these perspectivesâwhile subjectiveâcapture the positive and negative ways each other's behavior lands, and serve as a potential frame for adjusting and improving their lives into 2023.
Relationship Experts Walk The Talk is a deep dive into the struggles, cycles, and joys of relationship from couple and counselors Figs and Teale. Learn how to repair conflict and understand each other through their personal therapy sessions, storytelling, and expertise as couples therapists.
To submit a question for Figs and Teale to answer, email [email protected] or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for counseling, quizzes, and courses.
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Couples Therapy Works is a new series from the Come Here To Me team delving into the complex work of couples therapy from the ground up. Each episode will feature one or more of Empathiâs own counselors as they examine the truths and challenges of relationship repair.
This week, Empathi veteran Karen Gordon joins Figs to discuss the inner workings of relationship systems: The Cycle.
Explore how everything two partners are doing can make sense, even as they make things worse for themselves, and discover how a simple (and deceptively hard to reach) shift in perspective can change every part in your relationship.
Physicist Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace and a Theory of Everything" (the fish story): https://mkaku.org/home/articles/hyperspace-and-a-theory-of-everything/
Check out Karen and Figs' live episode here on 01/18/23, 12 PM PST: https://youtu.be/RnzpLTgfvGo
To leave feedback, email [email protected] or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for quizzes, courses, and consultations.
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Relationship Experts Walk The Talk is a deep dive into the struggles, cycles, and joys of relationship from couple and counselors Figs and Teale. Learn how to repair conflict and understand each other through their personal therapy sessions, storytelling, and expertise as couples therapists.
In "Unsupervised," Figs and Teale describe their new podcast episode process: exploring their relationship without a therapist and answering listeners' burning questions about navigating love, life, and therapy.
To submit a question for Figs and Teale to answer, email [email protected] or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for quizzes, courses, and consultations.
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Couples Therapy Works is a new series from the Come Here To Me team delving into the complex work of couples therapy from the ground up. Each episode will feature one or more of Empathiâs own counselors as they examine the truths and challenges of relationship repair.
In this episode, Figs and the Empathi team explore the topic of attachment as the pillar on which all relationship systems and behaviors stand. Follow human attachment from the cradle to the grave with Good Enough Parenting, struggling with dependence, enmeshment and codependency, and the two types of pain lovers have the most access to.
Therapists who appear in this episode: Fiachra "Figs" O'Sullivan,
Alissa Gibbins, Max DeFrain, and Raphael Barker.
Parents are typically only fully attuned to their infants emotional needs 20 to 30 percent of the time: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/pbss-this-emotional-life_b_568178
Eventual secure base provision in infantsânot moment-to-moment attunementâalso need only occur 50% of the time to predict better outcomes: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190508134511.htm
Email [email protected] with feedback or leave a comment on YouTube, Instagram, or Apple Podcasts.
If you or someone you love are struggling in your relationship, visit empathi.com for quizzes, courses, and consultations.
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