Episodes
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“We need positive visions of how all this technology gets deployed, because what we visualize is what we build.”–Jane Metcalfe
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Jane talk about the pioneering work she did with Wired during the dawn of the “digital revolution” (3:00); how and why Jane’s professional focus shifted away from digital issues and into food and health issues in the ’00s (15:00); how science is trying to bring in diverse new data points and communication models to improve holistic health worldwide (28:30); how the health of the world’s humans is not separate from the health of the world’s animals, plants, and microorganisms, and how a bio-economy seeks to harness rather than extract the resources of nature (41:00); how regional and cultural differences affect how we perceive health, nutrition, and technology, and the importance of ethics in making scientific decisions (51:00).
Jane Metcalfe (@janemetcalfe) is the co-founder of Wired Magazine, and the chair of the Human Immunome Project, a global non-profit working to decode the immune system in order to transform how we prevent, diagnose, and treat disease.
Notable Links:
Notes from a peripatetic salon across northern Thailand (Deviate episode)Hotwired (first commercial online magazine)HotBot (early web search engine)Louis Rossetto (writer, editor, and entrepreneur)Neuromancer, by William Gibson (science fiction novel)Snow Crash, by Neal Stephenson (science fiction novel)Cyberpunk (subgenre of science fiction)Electric Word (technology magazine)Digital Revolution (shift from mechanical to electronic technologies)Ethernet (computer networking technology)proto.life (newsletter covering the neobiological revolution)Neo.Life: 25 Visions for the Future of Our Species, by Jane Metcalfe (book)The Non-GMO Project (non-profit organization)David Eagleman (neuroscientist)Human genome (complete set of nucleic acid sequences for humans)Immunome (code set for proteins that constitute the immune system)Single-cell sequencing (context-driven technique for studying cells)Microbiome (community of microorganisms in a habitat)One Health (interdisciplinary approach to ecological health)Zoonotic disease (disease than can jump from non-humans to humans)Bioeconomy (use of biotechnology in the production of goods)CRISPR gene editing (technique to modify genomes of living organisms)Bioengineering (application of biology to create products)Interbeing (philosophical concept in Zen Buddhism)iGEM (worldwide synthetic biology competition)Gene drive (technology of genetic engineering)CRISPRcon (gene editing technology conference)Kevin Kelly (author and futurist)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.”–Daniel Troia
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t make it into the film (30:30); the lessons that Daniel brought home from the trip, where he plans to travel next, and his advice for people who want to create their own bike journey (44:00); and an “Easter Egg” about Daniel’s experiences in Kansas (49:00).
Daniel Troia (@the_travelin_dude) is the director of We Are All in This Together, which documents his cross-country USA bicycle journey with no food and no money, in search of human connection.
Notable Links:
The Kindness of Strangers, by Mike McIntyre (book)The Epic of Gilgamesh (ancient Mesopotamian epic poem)Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, by Cheryl Strayed (memoir)The Way (2010 Martin Sheen movie)Dumpster diving (method of gathering discarded food)Dude Making a Difference, by Robin GreenfieldAldi (multinational discount supermarket chain)Tom’s Cartoons (art by unhoused person in Arcata, CA)Camera glasses (wearable camera)GoPro (action camera)East St. Louis (city in Illinois)Two Wheels To Freedom, by Daniel Troia (film)Paterson (city in New Jersey)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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Missing episodes?
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“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.” –Julie Frieder
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00).
Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Angela Heisten and Annika Paradise) of Wonder Year: A Guide to Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling.
Notable Links:
The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)Hydrogeology (geology focusing on groundwater)Temple Grandin (animal behaviorist)“Awe Is Good for Your Brain,” by Florence Williams (Outside article)WWOOF (World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms)Unschooling (experiential learning method)HSLDA (homeschooling resource website)Worldschoolers (Facebook group)Lands of Lost Borders , by Kate Harris (book)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“Look at any photo from a moment of supposed zeitgeist in American history, and it will be clear that not everyone in that moment represented the cutting-edge of culture.”–Rolf Potts
In this essay episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he enjoys listening to Rob Harvilla’s podcast 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s at double-speed, but that he’s disappointed Rob has never alluded to Rolf’s own 1990s grunge band, Swizzlefish (1:45); Rolf describes his move from Kansas to the Pacific Northwest in the year 1990, at a very specific moment in America’s cultural zeitgeist (10:30); the origins of Swizzlefish, and how its formation with Rolf’s friends Ryan and Steve was compromised by the fact that Rolf and Steve were in no way musical virtuosos (18:30); the circumstances of the first Swizzlefish live show, and how it caused an immediate controversy on Rolf’s small Christian college campus (30:00); what Portland’s indie-rock scene was like in early 1993, and what kinds of bands Rolf and his friends saw there (35:00); how the second Swizzlefish concert resulted in the band getting banned from playing on its own college campus (42:00); Swizzlefish’s spring 1993 performance at Portland’s X-Ray Cafe, and how the middle-class normalcy of its fans evoked something true about grunge music (49:00); Rolf’s eventual move to Seattle to work as a landscaper, his experiences at a 1993 Nirvana show there, and the curiously enduring legacy of Swizzlefish more than 30 years later (57:30); and Rolf talks to music journalist Rob Harvilla about Rolf’s brief appearance in the 1992 horror movie Dr. Giggles, their respective experiences with 1990s music, and whether or not Kurt Cobain would have liked them (1:06:25).
The 1993 Swizzlefish album Big Time Loser is available for streaming on Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube Music.
Rob Harvilla (@harvilla) is the creator of 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s, a book and a podcast that explore the pop culture of the decade through music.
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Bands, musicians, and songs mentioned:
“Love Buzz” (Shocking Blue song covered on Nirvana’s Bleach)Elliott Smith (singer-songwriter from Portland, Oregon)Heatmiser (Portland indie rock band)“Smells Like Teen Spirit” (Nirvana song)Jane’s Addiction (alternative rock band from LA)Mother Love Bone (Seattle rock band)Kurt Cobain (lead-singer of Nirvana)Jackyl (American hair-metal band)“Princess in a Cobweb” (song by Drunk at Abi’s)Sprinkler (Portland indie-rock band)“Should I Stay or Should I Go” (song by The Clash)Carrie Brownstein (musician and comedian)Bikini Kill (pioneering “riot grrrl” punk band)Big Daddy Meat Straw (Portland indie-rock band)“Smells Like Nirvana” (parody song by Weird Al Yankovic)“Holiday of Sparks” (song by Dimbulb)“Rock Collection” (song by Pond)Everclear (Portland rock band)Mia Zapata (Seattle punk singer murdered in 1993)“Scentless Apprentice” (1993 Nirvana song)Kim Deal (Ohio-born musician for The Pixies and The Breeders)Dookie (1994 Green Day album)924 Gilman Street (all-ages punk-rock club in Berkeley)Rancid (Berkeley punk band)Avail (melodic hardcore punk band from Virginia)Other links:
Malcolm McLaren (promoter and manager of the Sex Pistols)Hype! (1996 music documentary directed by Doug Pray)Twin Peaks (TV drama created by David Lynch)Grunge (alternative rock genre known as “Seattle sound”)George Fox College (pre-1996 name of George Fox University)Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW (Deviate episode)Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode)Brian Epstein (manager of The Beatles from 1962-1967)Sub Pop (Seattle-based indie-rock record label)X-Ray Cafe (1990s all-ages venue in Portland)Rap rock (hybrid music genre)Hardcore (punk rock subgenre)Portlandia (sketch-comedy TV show from the 2010s)This Present Darkness (Christian novel by Frank E. Peretti)Satanic ritual abuse (conspiracy theory and moral panic)Newberg (small Oregon college town)1993 TIME Magazine grunge issue (featuring Eddie Vedder)Dr. Giggles (1992 horror movie)Singles (1992 Cameron Crowe movie)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.”—Kevin Kelly
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include:
The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig ModWalk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin KellyWalking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig ModWalk and Talk, by Derek SiversExpanding Home, by Liz DanzicoWhere Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke2023: Walking, by Dan WangWhy Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel PinkKevin Kelly (4:00-15:00)
Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier.
Travel can be a way to see the future (Deviate episode)Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode)Wired (technology magazine)The Cotswolds (region in central Southwest England)Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45)
Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts.
Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode)The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs (book)Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club)Hoka (brand of walking shoes)Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00)
Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020.
Seeking rural places (Deviate episode)Jiangxi (Chinese province)Guangdong (Chinese province)Yunnan (Chinese province)Salzburg (city in Austria)The Vulnerable Observer, by Ruth Behar (book)Anna Greenspan (media professor)Communitas (unstructured community of equals)Daniel Pink (46:00-52:00)
Daniel Pink is a best-selling author of books on work, business, and life. His “Why Not?” project in collaboration with the Washington Post to aims to jolt America’s imagination about possibilities.
When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, by Daniel Pink (book)Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, by Daniel Pink (book)The Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink (book)Craig Mod (52:00-69:00)
Craig Mod is an author and photographer who has written and photographed about his walks across Japan, his love of pizza toast, and his life in Japan.
Walk Japan (tour company)Rich Roll (ultra-endurance athlete)The Glorious Boredom of My Walk in Japan, by Craig Mod (essay)Kissa by Kissa, by Craig Mod (book)Things Become Other Things, by Craid Mod (book)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“We ‘massage’ the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.” –Andrew McCarthy
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn’t conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the “micro” and the “macro” elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don’t drive the narrative forward, and what it’s like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how to best write about family members (47:00).
Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain.
Notable Links:
Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes)Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode)Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode)Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist)“Chasing the Black Pearl,” by Andrew McCarthy (Tahiti article)Gustav Mahler (classical composer)Don George (travel writer and editor)The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book)“A Slice of Paradise,” by Andrew McCarthy (Hawaii article)“A Slice of Ireland,” by Andrew McCarthy (Ireland article)“Steeped in Darjeeling,” by Andrew McCarthy (India article)Osprey (species of bird)Finisterre (peninsula in Spain)Communitas (unstructured community of equals)A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson (book)Less than Zero (1987 film starring Andrew McCarthy)Nut graph (journalism term)Joan Didion (American writer)Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book)Claude Chabrol (French film director)Henry Miller (American novelist)Alison Steele (New York DJ known as “The Nightbird”)Vin Scelsa (broadcaster)Oliver Sacks (British neurologist and writer)Rob Lowe (American “Brat Pack” actor)“Courting Vienna,” by Andrew McCarthy (Austria article)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can’t imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); “rights of access,” and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the “big here” versus the “small here” (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace “stillness” during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00).
Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) is an English adventurer, author and motivational speaker. He is responsible for the rise of the idea of the microadventure – short, local, accessible adventures. His newest book, out this year, is Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildness.
Notable Links:
Microadventure (local travel initiative)Industrial farming (agriculture practice)Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book)Rewilding (conservation biology)Korean DMZ (rewilded demilitarized zone)Seek (nature identification app)Merlin Bird ID (birdsong identification app)On Looking, by Alexandra Horowitz (book)Henry David Thoreau (naturalist and essayist)Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, by Annie Dillard (book)Mary Oliver (naturalist and poet)Right of way (public right to hike on private land)A Journey Around My Room, by Xavier de Maistre (book)Traveling in Place, by Bernd Stiegler (book)An Attempt at Exhausting a Place in Paris, by Georges Perec (book)Dustsceawung (Old English term for “contemplating dust”)Black Death (14th century pandemic)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“I hate the Kansas City Chiefs with a passion reserved only for things that I love.” —Tod Goldberg
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf shares his 2002 NPR “Savvy Traveler” dispatch about trying to watch the Super Bowl in Thailand (3:00); then he and Tod Goldberg discuss how they became NFL football fans as kids in the 1970s, and how this affected their fandom later in life (8:00); how it could be difficult in the days before the Internet for kids to find information about NFL teams and players, and which books they read about the early days of pro football (23:00); the origins of the San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs in upstart pro leagues, their more recent fortunes in the NFL, and how the last Chiefs Super Bowl appearance was nine months before Rolf was born (38:30); on watching Super Bowls from overseas and following the Chiefs (or 49ers) as adults, the strengths of the 2020 Chiefs and 49ers teams, and the emotional stakes of Super Bowl LIV (49:00); how the Chiefs have dominated the AFC in the four years since 2020, how this success has affected people’s perception of them, and how the Chiefs’ Midwesternness makes them different from other NFL dynasties (1:05:30); the role superstition plays in sports fandom, how some team fandom comes out of love for individual players, how fandom creates a leveling of social classes, and the merits of “fair weather” fandom (1:10:30).
Novelist Tod Goldberg (@todgoldberg) is the New York Times bestselling author of over a dozen books, most notably the Gangsterland series of crime novels. He is also the director of the University of California-Riverside Palm Desert Low-Residency MFA.
NFL games and players:
Super Bowl LIV (2020 KC Chiefs versus SF 49ers NFL title game)Rolf Benirschke (San Diego Chargers placekicker in the 1980s)The Catch (touchdown reception in the 1981 NFC Championship Game)Christian “Nigerian Nightmare” Okoye (Chiefs fullback in the 1980s)Mike Mercer (NFL punter in the 1960s)Marshall Goldberg (Jewish Chicago Cardinals running back in the 1940s)1934 NFL Championship Game, aka the “Sneakers Game” (title game)1940 NFL Championship Game, (73-0 Bears-Giants title game)Steve Grogan (New England Patriots quarterback in the 1980s)Ed “Too Tall” Jones (Cowboys defensive end in the 1980s)Super Bowl IV (1970 Chiefs versus Vikings NFL title game)NFL Films: Super Bowl IV Highlights (sports documentary)Hank Stram (Chiefs coach from 1960-1974)Len Dawson (Chiefs quarterback in the 1960s and 1970s)Todd Blackledge (Chiefs 1983 draft-pick quarterback)Joe Montana (quarterback who won four Super Bowls with the 49ers)Super Bowl XLVII (2013 Ravens versus 49ers NFL title game)Patrick Mahomes (current Chiefs quarterback)Andy Reid (current Chiefs head coach)Jimmy Garoppolo (former 49ers quarterback)Super Bowl XVI (1981 49ers versus Bengals NFL title game)Jet Chip Wasp (pass play that helped the Chiefs win Super Bowl LIV)Other links:
“Pandemic Love: A personal history of nostalgia“ Deviate episode 142)Kumbh Mela (Indian Hindu pilgrimage celebrated every 12 years)Tod Goldberg on why sports is so emotionally affecting (Deviate episode)Matthew Zapruder (American poet and editor)West Coast offense (passing-oriented football strategy)Candlestick Park (former stadium that hosted San Francisco 49ers games)Tom Landry, Existentialist, Dead at 75, by Sarah Vowell (essay)Tecmo Bowl (1980s football video game)Sears Christmas Wish Book was great American literature (Deviate episode)Nerf (toy brand that made foam footballs)Championship: The NFL Title Games Plus Super Bowl, Jerry Izenberg (book)The Super Bowl Shuffle (rap song performed by the 1985 Chicago Bears)All-America Football Conference (professional football league from 1946-49)Los Angeles Dons (football team in the AAFC)American Football League (professional football league from 1960-69)Battle of New Orleans (1815 battle between British and US armies)Former Minnesota quarterback Joe Kapp gets in a fight (video)Lloyd C. A. Wells (pioneering scout for the Chiefs in the 1960s)Historically black colleges (pre-Civil Rights universities for African-Americans)Edgar Allen Poe (Baltimore poet whose poem inspired the Ravens mascot)2014 American League Wild Card Game (Royals v. A’s baseball game)“A Native American football team beat the 1927 NFL Giants” (Deviate episode)“How Mahomes Made 3rd & 15 Magic in Super Bowl LIV” (NFL Films doc)Ken Griffey Jr. (American baseball player)Lambeau Field (Sports stadium in Green Bay)Class: A Guide Through the American Status System, by Paul Fussell (book)2015 World Series (baseball championship won by the Kansas City Royals)Golden State Warriors (NBA team based in San Francisco)Marshall Goldberg in 1940 (left), and Tod Goldberg in 2020 (right)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“Billionaires can’t take a week off? What’s the point of having a billion dollars if they have fewer options than I do?” –Tim Ferriss
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tim discuss common travel fantasies, and the fears that keep people from traveling (5:00); how we can redefine what “wealth” is and live fuller lives (18:00); why keeping a healthy perspective on information intake, technology, and “efficiency” is important, both on the road and in daily life (25:00); the “beginner’s mind,” and tips for writing and creativity (54:00); the merits of going on foot and “getting lost” on the road, and how this figured into Rolf’s writing classes (1:17:00); notions of “success,” and how to definite the notion of success in a way that enhances one’s way of being in the world (1:37:00); and Rolf’s recommendations for drinks, food, documentaries, books, and poetry (1:50:00);
Tim Ferriss (@tferriss) is a best-selling author and podcaster.
General Links:
Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s summer writing classes)Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (audiobook)The Game Camera (short film cowritten by Rolf and Kristen Bush)Tim Ferriss on how to create a successful podcast (Deviate episode)Arnold Schwarzenegger on The Tim Ferriss ShowLeBron James on The Tim Ferriss ShowCheryl Strayed on The Tim Ferriss ShowJerry Seinfeld on The Tim Ferriss ShowTortuga (bags design for long-term travel)Unbound Merino (travel clothing company)AirTreks (round-the-world flight planner)BootsnAll (online travel community)Interview Links:
Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode)Man bites dog (aphorism about journalism)“War is God’s way of teaching Americans geography” (quote)Beginner’s mind (attitude of openness)Adaptation (2002 film)Anne Lamott (American author)Kurt Vonnegut (American author)The Hero’s Adventure with Joseph Campbell (podcast remix)Flâneur (urban wanderer)Situationists (1960s social and artistic movement)Psychogeography (exploration strategy)Dave Chappelle (comedian)John Hughes (filmmaker)Rachel Kaadzi Ghansah (American essayist)Grizzly Man (2005 documentary film)Werner Herzog Reads Curious George (satire)Con Air (1997 film)Aimee Nezhukumatathil (poet)Naomi Shihab Nye (poet)Major Jackson (poet)Donald Hall (poet)Books mentioned:
Walden, by Henry David Thoreau (book)The 4-Hour Work Week, by Tim Ferriss (book)The Art of Nonfiction, by Ayn Rand (book)Writing Tools, by Roy Peter Clark (book)To Show and to Tell, by Phillip Lopate (book)Screenplay, by Syd Field (book)Story, by Robert McKee (book)Save the Cat, by Blake Snyder (book)A Moveable Feast, by Ernest Hemingway (book)Leaves of Grass, by Walk Whitman (book)Good Hope Road, by Stuart Dischell (poetry)Alien vs. Predator, by Michael Robbins (poetry)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“Sometimes it’s good to sit still and let a place move through you instead of you moving through a place.” –Rolf Potts
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how one can be vulnerable to new experiences on the road instead of micromanaging an itinerary (2:00); how monuments to mortality help us think of travel moments in an existential way (11:30); how we can take the mindset of travel back home with us when the journey is over, and how the experience of travel changes as you age (20:00); the role of ritual and ceremony in slow travel, and the simple things we have in common with our host cultures (30:00).
Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England.
Notable Links:
Rolf’s online book club signupThe Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)The Cotswolds (region in central-southwest England)Lake Maninjau (caldera lake in West Sumatra, Indonesia)Rendille people (Cushitic-speaking ethnic group in northern Kenya)Locals often perform a distilled version of their culture (Kenya dispatch)Père Lachaise Cemetery (largest cemetery in Paris)Frédéric Chopin (19th century Polish composer and pianist)The Catacombs (underground ossuaries in Paris)Mount Kenya (second-highest peak in Africa)What we hope to see in places can be at odds with reality (Mentawai dispatch)Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode)Isiah Pacheco (Kansas City Chiefs running back from Rutgers)Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and writer)Richard Rohr (American Franciscan priest and writer)Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (travel book)Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes)China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode)Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club based out of Nairobi)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“When asked to give advice to young people looking to become travel writers, I invariably tell them to go – alone – and live in a country where they don’t speak the language.” –Thomas Swick
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about the thematic limitations of memoir writing, and the early stages of Tom’s career as a journalist (2:00); his decision to move to Poland for love, and his experiences living in Warsaw around the time of the Solidarity movement (9:30); the task of writing a travel memoir about events that happened decades ago, and how the American news cycles tends to ignore international matters (15:00); the task of getting started in travel writing in the twenty-first century (21:00); and how travel writers have the ability to bring a fresh eye to places that people who live there might miss (26:00).
Thomas Swick (@roostertie) is an author and writer of The Joys of Travel, A Way to See the World, and Unquiet Days. His newest book is Falling into Place: A Story of Love, Poland, and the Making of a Travel Writer.
Notable Links:
The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)Misery memoir (literary genre focusing on trauma)Aix-en-Provence (city in France)Alsace (region of eastern France)Trenton Times (newspaper in New Jersey)Watergate (political scandal)David Maraniss (American journalist and author)Pope John Paul II (Poland-born Catholic pope)Solidarity (Polish anti-authoritarian movement)Martial law in Poland (early 1980s reaction to Solidarity)Patrick Leigh Fermor (English traveler and author)Tim Cahill (American travel and adventure writer)Dave Barry (American humorist and author)Holiday Magazine (postwar travel magazine)Granta (British literary magazine)Holidays in Hell, by P.J. O’Rourke (book)Colin Thubron (British travel writer)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.” –Rolf Potts
In this episode of Deviate – which is a redo of episode 229, which didn’t air properly due to technical problems – Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00).
Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England.
Notable Links:
Rolf’s online book club signupThe Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan)Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay)Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour)White Zombie’s J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode)Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater)Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“Not everyone who’s lucky is talented and not everyone who’s talented is lucky.” –Tom Bissell
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Tom talk about Tom’s lack of travel experience when he joined the Peace Corps, and how he dealt with his early failures (2:30); the role that luck (as well as craft and obsessive reading) has played in his writing career (8:00); how, as a writer, to turn real-life people, including yourself, into convincingly human and honest nonfiction “characters” (16:00); Tom “failures” as a writer, the challenges of screenwriting, and the difficulty of writing books that sell (38:30); the book that Tom is most proud of, and how to get out of the success/failure dichotomy as a creative person (47:00); plus a post-interview segment about drinking in Paris (56:00).
Tom Bissell is an American author, journalist, critic, and screenwriter. He is the author of such books as Chasing the Sea, Apostle, God Lives in St. Petersburg, Extra Lives, and The Disaster Artist.
Notable Links:
Rolf’s Paris travel memoir workshops (annual classes)Salt and Fire (2016 Werner Herzog movie)Star Wars: Andor (TV series)Harper’s Magazine (literary publication)Aral Sea (endorheic lake in central Asia)Steven Soderbergh (American film director)Ryszard Kapuściński (Polish journalist and author)A Sense of Direction, by Gideon Lewis-Kraus (travel memoir)“War Zones for Idiots”, by Tom Bissell (essay)Lucasfilm (American film and TV company)Tony Gilroy (American screenwriter)Michael Clayton (2007 legal thriller movie)Greg Sestero (American actor and model)Tommy Wiseau (Polish-American filmmaker)The Room (film regarded as the worst movie ever made)Creative Types, by Tom Bissell (short story collection)The Father of All Things:, by Tom Bissell (memoir)Heraclitus (ancient Greek philosopher)Stoicism (school of Hellenistic philosophy)Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (Russian writer and dissident)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“One way of making famous landmarks more comprehensible is to look for surprises, good and bad, that go beyond what you are expected to encounter there, details that open you up to the raw imperfections of the encounter itself.” –Rolf Potts
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how to break out of standard tourist routines and see places in unexpected way (1:30); how to get beyond the transactional, “taxi drivers and bartenders” layer of travel (10:00); how to become more independent of technology and smartphones as a traveler and find the “wisdom of place” (16:00); and the travel photos Rolf wishes he had taken when vagabonding 20 years ago (23:00).
Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England.
Notable Links:
Rolf’s online book club signupThe Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)Kalash people (tribe in Pakistan)Up Cambodia without a phrasebook, by Rolf Potts (essay)Henry Rollins Travel Slideshow (spoken-word tour)White Zombie’s J. Yuenger on long-term travel (Deviate episode)Before Sunrise (1995 film directed by Richard Linklater)Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s creative writing classes)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“One ironic anxiety of travel is that suddenly you’re living in ‘organic time’ and you’re not used to it.” –Rolf Potts
In this “vagabonding audio companion” episode of Deviate, remixed from Aaron Millar’s Armchair Explorer podcast, Rolf talks about his earliest travel dreams, and what compelled him to finally take a vagabonding dream trip around North America by van in his early twenties (2:00); how travel expectations and planning are often at odds with the joy of what happens spontaneously on the road (8:30); the delightful surprises Rolf found on a recent trip to Sumatra and the Mentawai Islands (11:30); Rolf’s experiences in Myanmar, and the importance of seeing time, rather than possessions, as our most important form of wealth in life (22:00); Rolf’s early experiences in Southeast Asia, and his monthlong boat journey down the Mekong River (31:00); and how, at its best, travel teaches us to pay attention to life itself (35:00).
The Armchair Explorer podcast features adventure storytelling set to music and cinematic effects.
Notable Links:
Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book)The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book)Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode)Uinta Mountains (mountain range in Utah)Mardi Gras (annual celebration in New Orleans)Sumatra (island in Indonesia)“Travel in Sumatra is cheap and amazing” (dispatch)“Seeking crowds is better than crowd-sourcing” (dispatch)Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia)“Boredom is one of the greatest gifts of travel” (dispatch)Hornbill (tropical bird)Bessie Stringfield (20 century American motorcycle traveler)Bagan (UNESCO World Heritage Site in Myanmar)Mekong (river in Southeast Asia)“One Month on the Mekong,” by Rolf Potts (travel essay)Henry David Thoreau (American essayist and philosopher)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“A wonderful aspect of traveling by train is the transactional relationship between passengers who feed off one another, picking up tips, offering advice, guarding each other’s belongings, and generating a trust that is unique to railway travel.” –Monisha Rajesh
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Monisha discuss how her interest in train-travel dates back to a series of journeys she took around India (1:30); her more recent experience of taking the Trans-Mongolian train across Russia and into Asia (14:00); what it was like to travel by train in North Korea, China, and Southeast Asia, and how they differ from European trains (28:00); what it was like to take trains across Canada and the United States, and which global trains Monisha likes best (45:00).
Monisha Rajesh (@monisha_rajesh) is a travel journalist, and the author of Around India in 80 Trains, and Around the World in 80 Trains. She currently lives in London with her husband and two daughters.
Notable Links:
Indrail Pass (Indian rail-pass for foreign nationals)Saint Basil’s Cathedral (church in Moscow’s Red Square)Eurail Pass (rail-pass covering 33 European countries)Trans–Mongolian Railway (long-haul train route)Circum-Baikal Railway (railway in Russia’s Irkutsk region)War and Peace (novel by Leo Tolstoy)Game of Thrones (fantasy TV series)Korean State Railway (train system in North Korea)Southwest Chief (American Amtrak route)German Baptist Brethren (Anabaptist group)Qinghai–Tibet railway (Asian train route)Skeena (Canadian passenger train service)Mandovi Express (train route in India)Flight shaming (environmental social movement)Sunset Limited (American Amtrak route)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“We live in an age where you can take a series short flights inside a country to speed things up. You end up going to more places, but you experience less, because you’re not really committed to that chicken bus full of really interesting people who want nothing more than to interact with you.” –Rolf Potts
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss the idiosyncrasies of crossing land borders and traveling overland (1:30); travelers’ tendency to take dishonest photos of places, and how tourist destinations bend to tourists’ expectations (8:00); the small inconveniences that keep travel interesting, even as we try to avoid them, and the idiosyncrasies of haggling overseas (14:00); how food can be a window into cultures and places for travelers (19:00); common scams that travelers encounter on the road (26:00); and the process of how Rolf assembled the meditations in The Vagabond’s Way, and the concept of “walking until your day becomes interesting” (30:00).
Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England.
Notable Links:
Rolf’s Vagabond’s Way online book club signupThe Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)YouCam Perfect (AI person-remover app)Kenny G (American smooth jazz saxophonist)Applebee’s (American restaurant chain)Mentawai Islands (archipelago in Indonesia)Brent Nelson sandwich (bar food in Lindsborg, Kansas)Turkish Knockout, by Rolf Potts (travel essay)Camille Dungy (poet and writer)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“Domestic travel to rural places can be as important as international travel that is more obviously cross-cultural.” –Rolf Potts
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Marci talk about how the best trips are guided by curiosity about eight key things, rather than checklists (2:00); what Marci has learned from several decades of writing guidebooks to rural and small-town Kansas, and how these places are worth fighting for (10:30); how urban people can better experience rural places (17:00); using your five senses as a traveler, and other strategies for exploring the nuances of new places (26:30); and seeing places as “mysteries to be solved” (37:30).
Marci Penner (@GetRuralKansas) is the executive director of the Kansas Sampler Foundation, which preserves and sustains rural culture by educating Kansans about Kansas and networking and supporting rural communities. She is involved with the PowerUp Movement (empowerment of those 21-39 who are rural by choice), the Big Rural Brainstorm, and the We Kan! Conference.
Notable Links:
Kansas Guidebook for Explorers, by Marci Penner and Wendee Rowe (guidebook)Physiographic Regions of Kansas (map)8 Wonders of Kansas (travel destinations)Skeleton Coast (coast area of Namibia)Sterling (town in Kansas)Microaggressions (accidental verbal slights)Big Kansas Road Trip (rural tourism event)Daniel Boone (American frontiersman)New Almelo, Kansas (community in Norton County)Nicodemus, Kansas (town founded in 1871 by formerly enslaved Americans)Damar, Kansas (town founded in 1888 by French Canadians)Exodusters (movement of African-Americans to Kansas in 19th century)Boot Hill (cemetery in Dodge City, Kansas)Fencepost limestone (stone bed in the Great Plains)Cuba, Kansas (Czech-American rural community)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“A souvenir can be anything from a travel experience that honors a certain moment in your life, certifies the journey that took you there, and celebrates the confluence of people and places and actions that made it possible.” – Rolf Potts
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Suzanne talk about the ways souvenirs help narrate our travel experiences (2:00); the five different historical categories of travel souvenirs (7:30); the old trend of collecting hair and bones from famous people (15:00); what kinds of souvenirs are popular with travelers (20:00); which souvenirs Rolf sought when he visited Australia, and how some souvenirs make less sense when you get them home (24:30); then Rolf and Gina talk about childhood travel souvenirs (30:00); how photographs are a kind of souvenir, and how they create different memories than objects (36:00); and how the notion of “authenticity” in regard to souvenirs can be complicated (40:00).
Suzanne Hill is the presenter of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation’s “Weekend Nightlife.”
Gina Kaufmann is an essayist and radio journalist, most recently at KCUR, the NPR affiliate in Kansas City.
Notable Links:
Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book)One Month on the Mekong, by Rolf Potts (essay)Grand Tour (17th- to 19th-century European travel rite)British Museum (public museum in London)Elgin Marbles (ancient Greek sculptures)Boxer Rebellion (anti-colonial uprising in China)Henry Crabb Robinson (19th century English diarist)John Keats (English Romantic poet)John Milton (English poet and intellectual)On Seeing a Lock of Milton’s Hair (Keats poem)Rue Mouffetard (street in Paris)Las Vegas Souvenir & Resort Gift Show (convention)World’s Columbian Exposition (world’s fair in Chicago)Omiyage (Japanese souvenir rite)Día de los Muertos (Mexican holiday)Père Lachaise (cemetery in Paris)Neil Armstrong (astronaut)Auschwitz (Nazi concentration camp in Poland)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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“In alien parts, we speak more simply, unencumbered by the histories that we carry around at home, and look more excitedly, with eyes of wonder.” —Pico Iyer
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and The Vagabond’s Way book club participants discuss how he prepares for the book-club sessions (1:30); how the first days of one’s journeys have an optimistic energy and excitement, and how “culture shock” is a real thing (4:00); how travel can put us into a childlike mental state, and how travel expectations can lead to unfair disappointments (13:00); how food, even anomalous food, tells specific stories about places, and Rolf’s strategy for keeping a travel journal (21:30); how the “beaten path” is beaten for good reasons, but straying from it yields serendipitous rewards (31:00); and simple strategies for staying safe and dealing with burnout on the road (42:00).
Discussion moderator Luke Richardson is a traveler, author, and DJ based in England.
Notable Links:
Rolf’s online book club signupThe Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)Vagabonding, by Rolf Potts (book)Egeria (ancient Galician nun and pilgrim)Faroe Islands (North Atlantic archipelago)Culture shock (cross-cultural anxiety)Expatriate life in Korea (Deviate episode)Rick Steves (travel writer and TV host)Mary Oliver (American poet)Beginner’s Mind (spiritual attitude of openness)Whittier (city in southern California)Nottingham (city in England)Hippie trail (overland Asia route in 1960s and ’70s)Pulp Fiction (1994 Quentin Tarantino)H Mart (Korean supermarket chain)Lavinia Spalding on travel journaling (Deviate episode)Patrick Leigh Fermor (English travel writer and scholar)Commonplace book (compendium of learning)The Daily Stoic, by Ryan Holiday (book)On Trails, by Robert Moor (book)China and Mongolia with my parents (Deviate episode)České Budějovice (city in the Czech Republic)Ranong (town in Thailand)The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at [email protected].
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