Episodes
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Gabrielle Hartley is a leading divorce attorney, mediator, & author of The Better Apart Method; The Radically Positive Way to Separate (Harper Collins), which combines the healing wisdom of mindfulness, meditation and yoga with practical advice and legal wisdom to get the reader through and beyond the divorce.
Gabrielle maintains a private law, mediation and coaching practice in Northampton, Massachusetts and in New York City where she offers live and online consultation and mediation. Contact Gabrielle at www.gabriellehartley.com.
Find out more about us at www.modernseparations.com
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Alyson Jones is a Registered Clinical Counsellor who is passionate about families and children. Through her work as a Parent Coordinator, Mediator, Collaborative Law Divorce Coach and Child Specialist Alyson advocates for the best interests of the children and encourages parents to do divorce better. She assists in conflict management and working towards a healthy resolution for the entire family.
Find out more about Alyson: https://www.alysonjones.ca/
Connect with us at: https://www.modernseparations.com/
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Trigger Warning: This episode deals with the upsetting topic of domestic violence. Chrissy Leontios is a multiple award winning family lawyer in Australia specializing in representing survivors of family violence.
We have a difficult but important discussion about what it can be like going through the family court system as a survivor of family violence, and some tips for safety planning, choosing a lawyer, and recovery.
Find out more about Chrissy at: https://www.cleonlegal.com.au/
Connect with us at: https://www.modernseparations.com/
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Una Archer is a psychologist who helps separated parents raise emotionally secure, well-adjusted children. Listen to our interview for her tips on managing differing parenting styles when you are in a co-parenting relationship!
Guest Links:
Course: https://www.parentingafterseparation.co.uk/workshop
Website: https://www.parentingafterseparation.co.uk
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/unaarcherattachment/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/una_archer/Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters -
Legaltech is a promising pathway to increased access to justice. At Modern Separations, we specialize in e-mediation because we have found it to be one of the key contributors to healthy family transitions for separating couples. Watch to find out why!
For more information, go to www.modernseparations.com Copyright 2018 Modern Separations Ltd. All Rights Reserved. Disclaimer: The views in this video are not intended as a substitute for legal advice.
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Interview with my friend Erin Levine about her innovative platform, Hello Divorce, where you can have your needs assessed and get assistance that is tailored to maximize your benefit, lower your financial exposure, and empower you to embark on a fresh start. Because, as Erin says, if you’ve got to be thrown into the court system just to exit a relationship, might as well make it as simple, easy, high quality, convenient and cost effective as possible.
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Interview with author Nadine Haruni about Freeda the Frog children’s book series, designed to help kids cope with various situations, including divorce and blended families, and to understand that they are not alone, and that families come in all sorts of colors, shapes and sizes.
Guest Links:
Website: www.freedathefrog.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FreedaTheFrog
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/freedathefrog
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/FreedaTheFrogModern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
I talk to Dr. Gitu Bhatia about the incredible ways that the Divorce Works app can help you track and regulate your emotions during the very stressful period of separation and divorce.
Dr. Bhatia has extensive experience working with individuals, couples and families dealing with a range of relational, psychological and emotional issues. She specializes in working with families going through the difficult transition of divorce and separation.
She developed the DivorceWorks app together with another psychologist to increase access to mental health support. With a focus on emotional awareness and regulation, the app assists with coping during this difficult time. DivorceWorks includes features to help parents transition mindfully, to a new and happy reconfiguration of family and self.
>>> Sponsor - Professionals (Re)Boot Camp: The retreat for re-booting yourself and your practice. Join us in November 2018 in the Mayan Riviera (Mexico) for a combination of mindfulness, yoga, business workshops, and time to rest, recharge and explore! Info and registration at: www.modernseparations.com/pros
Guest Links:
Website: www.divorceworksmedia.com
Facebook: www.facebook.com/divorceworks
Instagram: www.instagram.com/divorceworksapp
Twitter: www.twitter.com/divorceworksappModern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters -
Although out of court resolution is the preferred option whenever possible, there are situations where one needs the power of the Court to make an Order. For those facing a possible court process, Sarah Jacobs explains what it is like to prepare for family court in her jurisdiction of New Jersey.
Sarah Jacobs is dedicated to protecting the interests of clients in family law proceedings. Certified by the Supreme Court of New Jersey as a Matrimonial Law Attorney and Qualified as a Family Law Mediator, she possesses nearly 15 years of experience practicing law throughout the State of New Jersey. Sarah’s personal philosophy, and that of the Jacobs Berger team, is to build a family life plan out of family law problems. She and the entire firm see their role as architects of restructured family units who help families transition and establish new roles and responsibilities while minimizing strain. While she works with clients in a cooperative setting, Sarah is also a skilled litigator with the knowledge needed to take even the most complex cases to court. Over the years, Sarah has developed a concentration in litigation involving child custody and relocation issues. Sarah is particularly interested in the utilization of experts, evaluations, parent coordination, mediation and the roles of these “tools” in family law matters.
Guest Links:
Website: http://www.jacobsberger.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/jacobsberger
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/jacobs-berger-llc
Twitter: https://twitter.com/jacobsbergerllc
Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
If you're considering heading off to family court, listen to this episode and consider first whether you have any better options for resolution. Court should be the last resort! It's often best used in scenarios involving a person with serious mental health or substance abuse issues which make voluntary and reasonable dispute resolution impossible. I talk to Audra Bayer about the experience of family court in Canada.
Audra has been practising law in Manitoba since 2000 and British Columbia since 2012 and has built a strong and reputable practice. She is a senior lawyer, and member of the management committee with MacLean Law responsible for HR administration and other responsibilities.
She has demonstrated her commitment to individuals with limited financial resources by providing legal services to clients with Access Pro Bono in Manitoba and British Columbia. Audra also participated in the University of Manitoba mentorship program.
Audra Bayer practices mainly in the area of family law with a focus on the litigation, resolution and mediation of high conflict matters and cases where family violence is a factor. Audra is also a collaborative law practitioner., a mediator and an arbitrator. Audra has been involved with both the Provincial (BC and Manitoba) and National Canadian Bar Association Sections having occupied several Executive Positions over the years.
Guest Links:
Websites:
http://audrambayerlaw.com/
https://macleanfamilylaw.ca/lawyers/audra-bayer/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/audrambayerlaw/
LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/audrabayer
Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
Retreats are an excellent way to re-energize, re-focus, create collaborations, foster creativity, plan, dream, and problem solve.
Our recent business retreat in Hawaii was extraordinary.
We all came back with renewed energy and purpose for our professional practices. There's something absolutely magical and transformative about having extended time with like-minded people in a stunning environment.
Check out this round table discussion to hear about our experiences and our takeaways!
Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Register for our November 2018 Retreat in Mayan Riviera - Professionals (Re)Boot Camp:
www.modernseparations.com/pros
Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/Guest Links:
Aurora Johannson, Mindful Lawyer & MediatorWebsite: https://www.insidepassagelaw.ca/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mindfuldivorce/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AuroraJohannsonTara Eisenhard, Divorce Coach
Website: https://www.taraeisenhard.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/author.taraeisenhard/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/taraeisenhard/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/RelativEvolutnsAly Pain, Conflict Coach
Website: https://www.alypain.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AlyPain
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alypain/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/AlyPainJuris Vinters, Co-Founder of Modern Separations
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/juris.vinters -
Managing finances is challenging at the best of times! Re-building your finances during and after separation is even tougher. Shannon Lee Simmons shares with us about the fantastic framework she's created for thinking about budgeting and making financial decision-making more effective and fun!
Shannon is a Certified Financial Planner (CFP), Chartered Investment Manager (CIM), media personality, personal finance expert and founder of the New School of FinanceTM.
She is also the author of Worry-Free Money: The Guilt-Free Approach to Managing Your Money and Your Life.
Simmons is widely recognized as a trailblazer in the Canadian financial planning industry. She was named one of Canada’s Top 30 Under 30, the Notable Award for Best In Finance and New School of Finance won the 2016 Wealth Professional Award for Digital Innovation. She is a regular financial expert in the media and has a monthly column for Globe and Mail and is a personal finance columnist for CBC’s On the Money and Metro Morning.
Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Guest Links:
Website: http://www.shannonleesimmons.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/shannon.simmons.39
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shanleesimmons/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/shanleesimmons
Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
Arbitration is essentially a private judicial process that is faster than the public court system, and confidential. It has a lot of potential benefits! Today I talk to Herschel Fogelman about what families can expect from a divorce arbitration. Herschel is a dedicated family lawyer, mediator and arbitrator. His approach is to make every effort to find a negotiated resolution to family disputes, and he brings a calm, balanced and reasoned approach to problem-solving.
Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Guest Links:
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.fogelmanlaw.ca
Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
The dating scene can be a scary place to jump back into after a long time away! Dating coach, Lindsey Liu, shares how you can re-think how you're approaching the entire concept of dating. Lindsey is a divorcee, Certified Life Coach, founder of Soul Confidence, and the author of Divorced, Single and Scared to Mingle.
Motivated by her own post-divorce dating struggles, Lindsey developed a framework to give divorced women the tools necessary to feel confident about their ability to date again. Lindsey has been featured on multiple divorce podcasts and has coached hundreds of divorced women through her framework to fun and fulfilling dating lives.
Guest Links:
Website: http://lindseychristinecoaching.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SoulConfidence.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/soulconfidence.co/
Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
Are you experiencing anxiety as you move through the different stages of separation? Anxiety is rooted in worries about the past and fears about the future. Stefani Reinold, M.D. helps us understand what anxiety is and how it can be treated. She provides a lot of hope for improvement in functioning and enjoyment of life for people who seek treatment.
Stefani Reinold is a psychiatrist, perinatal mental health expert, wife and mother of two. She is host of the new podcast Not the Typical Mom Show, a podcast about the not so typical, but all too common issues of motherhood. She is passionate about helping women escape the stereotypes and abolish mom guilt.
Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Guest Links:
Website: http://www.notthetypicalmom.com/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/stefanireinoldmd
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stefanireinold
Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
Do you have concerns about building/improving your credit rating or how you can qualify for a new mortgage upon your separation? Most separating couples do! Kari Gares shares a wealth of financial tips that will be helpful to people who are considering their options.
Kari Gares is a Platinum-Award-Winning, Independent Mortgage Specialist, Entrepreneur and Co-Owner of MHC Mortgage House located in Vernon, BC. With more than 14 years of experience and training in the Financial Services Industry, Kari has built a strong reputation as an outstanding Mortgage Specialist, serving the lending needs of real estate professionals, builders, and home-buyers throughout the province and around the world. Kari has been described as “an overachiever”, “someone who sees opportunity where others might not”, and definitely as “the one you want in your corner”. Kari’s breadth of knowledge of the real estate industry, finance industry and mortgage lending enable her to customize a mortgage product that perfectly meets her clients’ needs and goals. In 2007 to present, Kari was recognized with the award of a Platinum Award-Winning Specialist and in 2010 was the recipient of the Guiding Principles Award for excellence in leadership, knowledge, and sales.
Her goal is to be successful in business and life in such a way that everyone benefits and grows. Kari’s dedicated and consistent ambition to creating solid investment strategies for her clients and the community has allowed her to be successful and create success for those in her life.Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Guest Links:
Website: www.karigares.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/karigares
Twitter: https://twitter.com/karigare
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/karigares/Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
Do you have a family business or an otherwise complex financial situation? A neutral financial expert can be extremely helpful for bringing clarity to the financial situation and financial options available to separating couples.
Simone is a Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA, CA) and Chartered Business Valuator (CBV). She is a Director in the Transactions group in the Kelowna office of Grant Thornton LLP. Simone specialize in business valuation and litigation support related to matrimonial and other shareholder disputes. She is the Chair of the Executive of the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group and has been a member of the group since 2008. Simone also practices in the area of mergers and acquisitions, assisting clients with buying and selling businesses in a variety of different industries. Prior to joining Grant Thornton LLP in Kelowna, Simone worked at Deloitte & Touche LLP in Toronto, as an auditor and business valuator.
Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Guest Links:
Website: http://www.grantthornton.ca/en/
https://collaborativefamilylaw.ca/find-professional/name/simone-brunton/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/simonebrunton
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simone-brunton-1b20643a/
Work Email: [email protected]
Work Phone: 250-712-6802Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/Christina: Today I'm talking to Simone Brunton. Simone is a Chartered Professional Accountant and Chartered Business Valuator at Grant Thornton. She's also the chair of the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group. Simone works with divorcing couples in the capacity of a financial neutral. In this interview, she shares the various ways in which a financial neutral can be helpful during the separation process, including text planning, business valuation, budgeting, and division of assets and debts. You can choose to involve a financial neutral regardless of the type of legal process you're going through, and I personally have found them to be very, very useful. Alright, here we go!
Christina: Hi Simone! Welcome! I'm happy to be talking with you today.
Simone: Hi! Thanks for having me.
Christina: So why don't we get started by having you tell us a little bit about your self and how you got into specializing and work with divorcing couples.
Simone: Okay, I'm a Chartered Accountant and Chartered Business Valuator. And I moved to Kelowna almost ten years ago and joined Grant Thornton here. And shortly after that I joined the Okanagan Collaborative Family Law Group, which is based out of Kelowna. So as a Chartered Business Valuator, one of the areas that we help couples going through divorce or separation with is when a business is involved. We are able to provide an independent, fair market value of the business, which can help the couple when they're looking to divide or separate their assets. This is very important because business valuation is a very complex area. It's difficult to know just by looking at the financial statements, how much the business is worth, and we find it's especially important in matrimonial situations. Because often, one spouse has much more knowledge of the business than the other, who's maybe not involved in the business. And so part of my role is to come up with an independent valuation of the business that is fair to both parties, and then helps them feel comfortable with making that decision and moving forward.
Christina: Yeah, that's really great that neutral aspect of your work... So the two of them would hire you together as a trusted person to help them sort out the valuation issue. Are there other types of financial issues that you can also help with during the separation?
Simone: Yeah, absolutely! Business valuation's one of them. Financial neutrals can often be involved in tax issues and helping structure things from a tax perspective. Like I mentioned, we often help with just educating both the parties to level playing field. We can also help with the division of assets. So further actually helping them sit down with the spreadsheets and split things out, as well as budgeting and forecasting, and things like that that they might need help with.
Christina: OK. And do you only work through the collaborative process or would you also be involved, for example, in a mediated file, or if couples are just negotiating between lawyers but it's not a formal collaborative process?
Simone: Yeah, absolutely. We do work in a collaborative process, and we do the same sorts of things outside of the collaborative process as well all the time.
Christina: So, a lot of families are concerned about the costs and they're worried about bringing on more professionals than necessary. What was your take on that? And do you find it, involving a financial neutral, can actually expedite things?
Simone: Yeah so, our role is to help them get to a resolution quicker. You know, if you don't have a financial neutral involved, you might spend more time arguing with things through your lawyers, and things like that which can really add up on the cost. You know, our report can be expensive to produce but it really helps the couples kinda make the decision and move on with that part of the process. The other way I feel like sometimes to look at it as that, you know, you can have two lawyers charging out at a certain rate versus one financial neutral charging out at a certain rate. So right there it's gonna be a bit more cost-effective. And also, you know, the financial neutral is specifically trained in these types of areas and they're gonna be more efficient in working through it, where as the lawyers, you know this is not their area of expertise. So you're kind of asking them to come up with that stuff and they're not gonna be as efficient getting through it. And the final way where we tend to... for some couples, can make a big difference is the tax structuring that could happen. Can save the couple a lot in taxes which can more than pay for the cost of that work or the cost of the valuation work.
Christina: So I just wanted to go back to what you were saying before about working with a couple where maybe, one person has been involved in the business and is maybe more financially sophisticated than the other. And you've got one person who's just really not comfortable or familiar with the finances. In those types of situations, do you work with both people together? But also, how do you bridge that gap? What are the results that you find working with those couples?
Simone: Yeah, often I'm having separate discussions with the couples. I just find that they're getting a chance to really be heard in a neutral environment and they're getting a chance to ask any question they want and not feel you know, like it's a dumb question. So generally we're usually dealing separately with them. It also allows the couples to bring up anything that they want to bring to my attention, going through the process as well. It really depends on the complexity of the situation and the person involved, but basically, yeah. We can spend a lot of time going through the valuation report with the one party and getting them more comfortable with it or allowing them to ask questions and get them more comfortable so that they do really understand what it is they're agreeing to. And I find that that's really, really important and it's important to do it sort of separately. We might meet with them together as well, but often in that kind of case, there's a lot of individual meetings.
Christina: Yeah, and I've personally seen a lot of success with involving a financial neutral in my mediations. I've seen that somebody who was very wary and not comfortable with the opinion of the other party is a regular business accountant. By hiring the financial neutral they really got a sense of ease, and comfort that they are getting an opinion that they could really rely on that was fair and wasn't skewed in favor of the other person. So, I'm really in favor of bringing financial neutrals on whenever possible. What would you suggest the people should know ahead of time that they should get organized or know upfront before getting started?
Simone: Before getting started, we're gonna require a lot of information. So maybe you know, doing a bit of gathering that information, whether it's your accountant has it or if you have copies or whatever sort of financial statements, tax returns – that kind of information we're gonna need that to get started. Pretty much you know, we like to kinda take a quick look at that before we get too deep into it because help it can help us scope out the engagement and kind of let the parties know what the cost might be upfront, or at least a quote. And it can also determine what type of report we would need to do, or what type of work we'd need to be done. That's really important to sort of get that information to us off the bat, we'll have a quick look at it and can kind of have a better idea at the scope of what we're looking at, how long it's gonna take, and all those sorts of things.
Christina: OK, and what kind of options are there for different levels of reporting?
Simone: So there's three levels of reports that a business valuator can provide. So one is a calculation level report, that's sort of the lowest level of report which is kinda like your Notice to Reader financial statement. And then we have the estimate level of report, and then the comprehensive report. Comprehensive reports are usually for very highly litigious high-dollar value situations. So depending on the size of the final amount of money at stake, that's usually where we see those. For most divorcing couples we would normally recommend estimate level reports. That report is able to be used in court if it needs to be. And you know, pretty thorough analysis of the company, what's going on. In the collaborative process because the parties are agreeing to not go to court. Sometimes you can prepare a calculation level report. In specific cases which is the less robust report and a little more cost-effective. But again, only under that process since there is an agreement not to go to court because that type of report is not appropriate for court because less work is done.
Christina: OK. If people are trying to figure out whether or not it's a good idea to go ahead and get a business valuation in their case, is there some kind of benchmark that you would use, for example a certain level of revenue or a certain level of profit, I don't... I'm not sure how you look at that, to say yes in your case I think it would be worthwhile to go ahead and get this done?
Simone: Well, I would say whenever there's a business involved, you should at least talk to a business valuator. You can't really set it based on the revenue or profit because there's so many different expenses and things that can go through that and impact the value of the business overall. But definitely, if there's a business involved, it's a good idea to get a business valuator involved. Now, you know, we're gonna be upfront at what I was saying before about getting the information upfront and kinda high-level look, so you know, if I get it and it's clear that value's going to be zero, we'll have that discussion upfront with the parties and whether they want us to go through the business valuation, we can definitely scope it out for them. But it's definitely worth at least having us take a look at it. And then other times get involved even there's no business would be there's complex tax structures. But usually those are related to businesses, or there's this really high-dollar value net worth of individuals and again, what we're talking about before if one party's been really involved in the finances, and the other has no involvement, we can help with that education piece as well.
Christina: Do you get involved with helping with budgeting at all? Some couples I know, one person is in charge of most of the finances and the other person, unfortunately, may not have an any experience with budgeting or really have a handle on what day to day life costs. So is that something that you help with?
Simone: Certainly in the collaborative process, that's part of the financial neutral's role if the couple needs it. So certainly, we can get involved in that and forecasting and things like that.
Christina: OK, awesome! So is there anything else that you'd like people to know about who might be wondering whether financial neutral will be helpful in their case? Any advice that you have for them?
Simone: Yeah, I think that besides the stuff we've already talked about, you know having a financial neutral, and I think we have sort of touched on this earlier. Really allows for fair settlement for both parties, and I think makes both parties feel more comfortable that they're getting a fair settlement. You know, because you got that independent expert that's providing the answers rather than friends who are biased and not experts on those areas, or lawyers who aren't really experts on those areas either. So I think I can give couples a lot of comfort that they've done the right thing and they know that they're having a fair, independent opinion.
Christina: OK, fantastic! And what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you if they would like to seek out some help?
Simone: So probably by phone or email. My phone number's 250-7126802, and my email is [email protected]. And there's probably some information on me also available on the Grant Thornton website, which would be www.grantthornton.ca. Or www.collaborativefamilylaw.ca.
Christina: OK great! Lots of options. We'll have all of those links at the show notes as well. Awesome! That was really, really helpful information, Simone. Thank you so much for spending time with me today.Simone: Thank you for arranging it. That was great!
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Separation can be overwhelming for both parents and children. Sharla Schofield shares how a child specialist can help parents notice and address the needs of their children to help them thrive during a challenging time.
Sharla Schofield has a B.A. in Psychology, a B.S.W., and an M.Ed. in Counselling. She is both a Registered Clinical Counsellor and a Registered Clinical Social Worker. Sharla has worked as a Child and Family Therapist with specialties in trauma and anxiety for over 30 years. The role of Child Specialist working as a Mental Health Professional in the arena of Family Law called to her 9 years ago. Since then she has taken numerous training as a Hear the Child Reporter, a Divorce Coach, a Child Specialist and in the field of Mediation. Her role as a Child Specialist is dear to her heart as a way to work with and support Children of Divorce.
Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is also a gratefully non-practicing Lawyer, Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Guest Links:
Work Email: [email protected]
Modern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
Achieving emotional closure is often one of the most challenging aspects of a separation or divorce. In this interview, we talk with Sue Cairnie about divorce ceremonies and how they can help couples and families heal and move forward.
Sue Cairnie is a Life-Cycle Celebrant and Inter-faith Minister, based in Vernon BC. She works closely with her clients to create personalized ceremonies that acknowledge life’s transitions: birth, coming of age, childbirth, marriage, divorce, coming out, career change, moving, and death. Sue is passionate about the power of divorce ceremonies to create space for healing, forgiveness, and transformation.
Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Guest Links:
Website: http://www.earthtoskyceremonies.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EarthtoSkyCeremoniesModern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/ -
Most people think that the only way to go through separation is by hiring a family lawyer, going to court and letting the judge decide who gets what. No so! In this interview, Nicole Quallen shares her perspective on respectful, out-of-court resolutions available for separating couples.
Your host, Christina Vinters, is a nationally designated Chartered Mediator on a mission to inspire and facilitate healthy family transitions. She is an “ex” Divorce Lawyer (Non-Practicing Member of the Bar), Author of Pathways to Amicable Divorce, and the DIY Divorce Manual, and Peacemaking Business Consultant.
Guest Links:
Website: https://www.twofamilieslaw.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/twofamilieslaw/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/TwoFamiliesLaw
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/10651550/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewellModern Separations Links:
Website: https://www.modernseparations.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/modernseparations
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/divorcewell
Twitter: https://twitter.com/cvinters
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cvinters/Transcript:
Christina: Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Nicole Quallen. Nicole is a mediator and non-traditional family lawyer in Durham, North Carolina. The non-traditional component of her practice is that she has limited herself to entirely out-of-court resolution for her clients. Her law firm is called Two Families Law, and she helps separating couples build two healthy families through negotiated separation agreements, mediation, and collaborative law. I think that you'll find the discussion with Nicole really inspiring. The conversation with Nicole will really provide you a lot of hope, if you're going through separation because she explains the various processes that she has available for clients to help them sort out their issues without going to court. The different processes involve different levels of support, depending on what the clients need. Nicole is a passionate advocate for respectful family resolution. I think you're gonna enjoy this interview. Here we go.
Christina: Welcome Nicole! I'm so happy that I have you here with me today.
Nicole: Thank you, Christina! And I'm so glad to be talking to you, too.
Christina: I'm particularly excited to have you on because you take such a positive approach to the experience of divorce, with your focus on resolution rather than inflammation. And I'm wondering if we can just start out by having you talk a little bit about yourself and what brought you to family law.
Nicole: Sure! Well, yeah, family law really found me. I actually didn't even take family law in law school. I but went through a divorce. My second and third year of law school. And found myself after graduation with an offer from a local family law firm that seemed to speak to me. So I went right there and sort of hit the ground running at a very, what I would call a traditional family law litigation firm here in North Carolina where I was, you know, I think I took a deposition on my third day there. And I stayed there for about two years, and I, say I loved-hated it. I loved the working with families, I loved that it just being in that, that really sacred inner space of family, and I loved the intellectual challenge of it. But I hated feeling emotionally drained. And I ultimately left that practice feeling that I wasn't actually helping these families. That's what I wanted to do, and was trying to do. But I often felt like that the trials that end... that's what most of our families are going through were court cases. And I felt like they were not being served; that they were leaving core really with a lot of trauma that to us, and I felt really conflicted about it and left. And I actually locked the law altogether for about three years.
Christina: Oh, wow!
Nicole: Yeah, I moved to New York City and started working in the, the non-profit sector. I thought it was sort of my penance. I thought the law is not for me, I'm not meant to be a lawyer, you know. There's something about the law that felt so good, but you just thought 'I just can't do it'. And then slowly, kept creeping back into law and family law in particular. Friends would be going through separation and would ask for my help. And quickly once I started doing that work on my own, I realized I still love family law, I wanna help these families. I just wanna do it in my own way. I know there's gotta be a way. And so, about two years ago is when I started my own practice where I work with families exclusively out of court.
Christina: OK, that's fascinating. Well, I can totally relate to the love-hate part of the traditional family law model. My experience was very similar – that I loved working directly with families and having the impact in such an important part of people's lives. But the actual litigation process was so traumatic that I, too left for a different take on the whole process. Why don't we talk a little bit about how you do that out-of-court process now? What are the options for clients? And yeah, what does that look like?
Nicole: Yeah, great question. I'm always reading about how you do it too, and I know there are different ways in different states and countries. So in North Carolina, I usually give my clients, when they come to see me at a consult. I boil down that out-of-court process here into three possibilities. One is mediation, which is you know, traditionally what you would think of and where I would serve as a mediator. So I'm trained as a mediator, I would sit down with both of the spouses and be really a guide communication-wise, where I'm trying to help them to have the discussions they need to resolve all of the issues of their marital estate – custody of their children, if they have it, division of all their assets and debts, and then any support payments that need to go from one party to the other. And in mediation in North Carolina actually, I know this is different than what you're able to do Christina. Here, as a mediator, I'm not allowed to draft anything for the parties. So I guide them to the decisions, and then they need to go to a third party attorney and turn that into what here is a separation agreement, which is a fully legally binding private contract, and forcible in court, but you don't have to go there if, you know, as long as everyone abides by the terms you never need to go to court. So that's, that's mediation.
Christina: OK, so let me ask you a quick question about that. When they hire the third party attorney and assuming that that attorney still only represents one client, so do they have to go from mediation sort of into the adversarial process to get the draft, negotiate it and complete it?
Nicole: Yeah, you're right in that assumption. It's really... I mean mediators, we don't like that process. So yes, they will go to an attorney and that attorney can only represent one party. In all of the cases that I have done, only one party has ever hired the attorney. And that attorney really works as sort of a scribe, and they are putting into writing what the parties have agreed on. And I think, you know, if you've done a good job in mediation then hopefully everyone agrees by that time. But there's certainly exactly the possibility that, you know, everyone thought they agreed in mediation and then when the attorney drafts it up, that one party says 'Uh-uh'. And then yes, you can be right back into a litigation [inaudible]. What I would tell folks is, if something happens in that draft that doesn't look good to you, come back to mediation and we'll try to resolve it there. Which actually has never happened to me. I think attorneys who do that drafting hopefully, you know, have a good idea of how to translate the sort of summary we give them in mediation to an agreement.
Christina: Oh, good. What I sometimes see is that, well I don't see that very often because here I am alone to do the drafting. But what I've seen in the past is that people can take a mediated agreement to one lawyer to draft and then when the other person goes to get independent legal advice. Then you've got the two attorneys on board, who are now sort of inflaming a conflict that didn't seem to really exist before. And they seem to be on board in mediation and then it goes a little bit sideways with the two attorneys on board.
Nicole: Exactly. You know, I think that I'm mostly able to avoid that because I have relationships with some attorneys who respect and also participate in the mediation process. So when they get the agreement, they don't really want to inflame. But yes, totally. I mean, that's how just exactly like our experience over here which is that as soon as you got two attorneys – two litigation-minded attorneys – involved no matter how much the parties have come to a resolution, you just... you never know what's gonna get brought up.
Christina: And so tell us a little bit about collaborative law. I understand you're quite involved in the collaborative law process.
Nicole: Yeah, definitely. So yes, we are talking a little bit about the options and one is mediation. The second one is sort of a negotiated separation agreement, which we'll talk about later. And the third is what is called in our statutes, collaborative law. In North Carolina, we got it in 2003, I think. And a good amount of the states have a collaborative law statute. And so here's the process, it's super cool. In collaborative law, both parties need to hire an attorney who is trained and ideally experienced in collaborative law. And everyone signs a pledge saying, 'We pledge to work through the legal issues of our divorce together. We pledge not to file a lawsuit and to go to court. We are honest and we're gonna disclose, you know, all of our finances, you know like what you do in court. And then everyone meets in... we come four-way conferences, but you meet in these conferences, or both attorneys and both parties get in the same room. And you talk through issue by issue and we do it in a way where the goal is not for each party to get sort of, you know, the best they can get, the most money. But with an eye towards having two successful individuals and successful children going forward to a workable fair agreement. So the hallmarks of that are that you sign this pledge saying you're not gonna go to court, which doesn't mean you can't. If the process fails, the parties can go to court, the attorneys cannot. So when the attorney signs that pledge, that's it. And the parties, they can go to court, they'd need new attorneys. Yes, so that's the basis of the process. And the other hallmark of the process is that you can hire what we call financial neutrals or child specialist neutrals, to come and join the process. You know, traditionally in litigation, you hire, each side may hire a child psychologist to come and testify about what's in the best interest of the child, and you know, why one parent is miserable and one is wonderful, or what not. And in collaborative, both parties would agree to use one – either child specialist or financial specialist. We use those when folks have you know, complicated finances, businesses, you know tons of real estate properties, or something like that. We have these awesome financial specialists who are trained in collaborative divorce, who can come in and give really good advice about how to make smart financial decisions.
Christina: Yeah, I think that's a real benefit to have the parties choose one professional who they trust. And then you use that as a basis for the discussion of how to make their decisions.
Nicole: It makes all the difference. If you think about it with, I mean, I'm sure in litigation you saw dueling child specialists. And if you have one doctor saying, 'Mom is a great parent and Dad is, you know, really damaging this child,' and the other '...and Dad has one of the opposite.' It's like... very difficult to get past that. You know.
Christina: Yeah, so one of the benefits that I saw when I was practicing collaborative law was that it gave both people the comfort of still having somebody sort of on their side, even though it is meant to be a team approach. So that's one of the benefits that I see of collaborative law over mediation that some people really like to feel like they've got somebody looking out for their interests and protecting them. What would you say are some of the other benefits of the process?
Nicole: Yeah, that's great. Everyone has an [inaudible]. So the benefits... the first benefit that always comes to mind in collaborative law versus, you know, sort of court is that you are avoiding the trauma of a trial. The benefits of having the third party neutrals there. The biggest benefit I think about is that lots of other types of divorce settlements can leave you feeling 'OK, you are satisfied in the moment', and then long term, they might break down or you might start to question 'Did I get a good deal?', 'Did I make a bad deal?'. And I think collaborative is the most protective process where people who leave that process when you have sat in on these sessions, you know, and we do four, five, six sessions. I think everyone leaves feeling like 'I put it all out there. I listened to everything, you know, my spouse had to say. I really understand what we came to'. I think there, you know, agreements that people feel really invested in and are much less likely to breakdown over time. So I think that's an emotional benefit you get. And then depending on how you do it, collaborative divorce is almost always cheaper than going to court.
Christina: Would you say that's because it generally resolves faster?
Nicole: Well, I think... I think collaborative divorce for me any way tugs in more expenses than mediation. But I think discovery in a traditional trial where both parties are, you know, requesting just scads of documents and hiring a private investigator – that process. What I saw in my practice is that that process alone costs 10, 20 plus thousands of dollars. Because you're preparing for everything that could go wrong and you're leaving no stone unturned, versus in collaborative divorce, we send our clients a list and say, 'OK...' you know I have my clients put things on drop boxes and say, 'OK. This is what you need. You need to turn a roll on these documents...' and they upload them themselves. So that's, you know, virtually a free process. And then yes, again I would say they resolve more quickly than the full negotiation process of a trial, you know, from start to finish. And those in North Carolina take, probably an average of a year – often more.
Christina: Hmm, it's pretty similar here. (…) Are you able to able to get involved with families at different stages of separation? Do you ever have clients come to you for collaborative law who, maybe started in litigation and then they decide what's not the route for them?
Nicole: Yeah, interesting. I'd love to hear your answer on this too. So, I think it's the very best if you can go collaborative first, because like we talked about where you meet with a litigator and they start to scare you. It's hard to undo that fear, I think? I've done a bunch of consults with folks who are in the litigation process; they're really unhappy. They come to me and they want to try collaborative. But I find it those folks who have trouble getting their spouse on board. So I think it's hard to go back from the path of litigation. I've done it a couple of times where... I guess in one case, one of the parties lost their attorney so they were willing to try. So the answer is I think it's far better to do at the beginning and I... I'm willing to work with people in any part of the process. I just find it's hard to get them out of the litigation track once they're there.
Christina: Yeah, that's interesting. So when I was practicing law for the collaborative files that I did, they were for clients who came in pretty much the beginning of their separation and made a conscious choice that's how they wanted to handle the whole transition. I don't think I had any people come in after they have started litigation. And I think you're right that you can't go back from that. Litigation really brings out the worst in people, right? Like you said about getting an expert to say the other party is just a terrible parent and traumatizing the child and... I mean, sometimes sure, that does happen and maybe true but for the most part, the adversarial process of trying to put your own case forward and trying to destroy the other person's case – particularly when they're parents. It's something that people have difficulty having just real conversations with each other after that.
Nicole: Yeah, totally. And you can totally see why, I mean, it would be very difficult attacking someone's parenting is so personal. Yeah. So that's why yeah, I totally agree. Anybody I hear who even has a whisper of divorce I say, 'Let me give you a free consult please! Please talk to me before you talk to a litigator.' Because even... and you know, litigators are doing their best in their doing, and pour into work and that I don't think that they're all awful by any means. But it's just a different process, like you said it's completely adversarial. And once you start it, it's really hard to go back.
Christina: Right, I mean, the adversarial process was designed in a way that it's appropriate for people who never have to deal with each other again. So if you've got a car accident, and you're suing the person who hit you, or like a medical malpractice suit or something like that, where there's no need to protect the relationship. It's a great process, I get the information out there, and helps the judge get to the truth. But it is so inappropriate for family situations, particularly parents who will have to deal with each other for the rest of their lives.
Nicole: Yeah. Completely agree.
Christina: Do you have any advice for somebody who is looking at their options, how they can present the option of collaborative law to their spouse?
Nicole: Yeah, I love that question. So I do this all the time, you know. I meet at a consult with only one of the spouses, and I do consults with both spouses too, plenty. But if I'm meeting with one spouse and they say, 'Well, I really want this but I'm not sure. My spouse is going to.' What I say to folks is 'OK, so the two main motivations to try to do something like collaborative mediation, separation agreement... the core of why I do this work is, you know, we want to preserve our co-parenting relationship, we don't wanna go through the trauma of court. All those sort of emotional and human factors. And then I say, 'And if that doesn't speak to your spouse, maybe because they're feeling afraid, vulnerable, you know plenty of good reasons that we could talk to if we got to a consultation. You know, and then I say that speaks to almost everybody is money. And I say, 'Tell your spouse that the average, you know, full custody and equitable distribution trial in North Carolina, the average trial cost is $37,000. Tell them that, tell them that they'll need you know, $2,000 a team or to hire an attorney. Tell them that I'll give you a free consultation and that most of my clients are out the door and under $3,000 and see if maybe they're willing to try it.' And one of those two methods seems to be pretty persuasive. And I also tell people that we just talk about which is don't wait. As soon as you feel comfortable having that talk, before your spouse goes to see a litigator, try to have the conversation. So...
Christina: I think time is of the essence for sure. OK, so why don't you tell me about your negotiation process?
Nicole: OK, so we talked about mediation and then the collaborative divorce. And actually, the bulk of my process is this third sort of funky process that I do that's the most popular and I think it's actually honestly workaround because I can't be like you do where I'm meeting with both parties and mediating the discussion and then drafting for them. And so what I'm doing with a lot of my clients is I'm representing one of the parties, working with them to draft a separation agreement that covers all of their issues just like any other due process is. And then the other party sort of receives that agreement reviews it, maybe hires an attorney to review it. Maybe not. And then sign. And you know, there's something not ideal about that process because I can only represent one party. And I wish I could do what you did where I, you know, really work with both parties. And sometimes the other party will sit in on meetings and I have to make it, you know, very clear that I can represent them, and that I can advise them. But that they are, they are too sitting on it. And then I tell folks, 'OK, if the other party is gonna hire an attorney to review or to participate in this process, I really recommend that you work with another attorney who is collaboratively-trained, like I am, to avoid like we talked about inflaming and this sort of bringing up financial issues that might cost more on legal fees and whatever benefit a party. So that's actually the bulk of my process. And it's a little, like I said... It's a little structurally funky, but it works for tons of people who come to my office, and they say 'We're separating.... We agree on you know, 70% of our issues... We need some help making them legal... We need some help thinking about things we might have missed. But you know, we definitely don't wanna go to court and we don't wanna start a big fight. So that's how a lot of those cases get wrapped up and it winds it being much more cost-effective to them. So I think they just don't need all of the support that the collaborative process provides because they really do agree in most issues.
Christina: So, what is exciting in your business right now? Is there anything that you'd like to share that you think will be helpful for people?
Nicole: Yeah. Man, I think this work is so exciting all the time! Something I'm sort of currently passionate about myself and the other collaborative practitioners in my community is that we want more attorneys to do this work. And I think that the client base is out there. I talk to litigators who I think is skeptical of that. But I have been doing this for less that two years. And I have just got clients after clients saying, 'I didn't know this was an option, I'm so glad you have this...' And in my one city of 250,000 people, there are two of us who practice collaborative law full time. And the other one, my mentor, is retiring. So I'm desperate to get more attorneys doing this work. I think collaborative attorneys... I think we have a lot less stress and some more job satisfaction; I think my clients are amazing. So, something I'm excited about is just spreading the word within the bar and trying to talk about how we can you know, just make collaborative divorce be a bigger portion of what's going on in family law.
Christina: Hmm, there's the traditional view is that... Well, family law is just difficult and you'll eventually burn out. But I agree it's really great to be able to share the different methodologies where you can actually enjoy your work and feel like you're doing good and still be working with a professional.
Nicole: Yeah, totally. I mean, I know you're a believer and you're leading the call here. But to me it just seems like night and day, as far as quality of life. So, yeah. And right in the different methodologies, actually I love doing all the continuing education that I do as a collaborative lawyer you know, just learning about conflict and psychology and human needs, and how people function rather than learning about you know, how to wire tap your access... cellphone to trying to like catch her doing whatever. That's just... it makes me happier and you know, better.
Christina: Wiretapping is not your cup of tea!
Nicole: Yeah, right! It just... It just doesn't quite feel like what I always wanted to do to make the world close.
Christina: Oh, that's awesome. So what are the best ways for our listeners to get in touch with you if they'd like to find out more?
Nicole: Yeah so, my practice is called Two Families Law, and my website is spelled out twofamilieslaw.com. I have a pretty active Facebook and Twitter page where I share ideas about collaborative law, conflict resolution, some of the reasons I do this work and stories from, like our community of collaborative professionals. So those are just great ways to follow about collaborative divorce. And then all my personal contact information is on my website and I'm just always too over-the-moon-happy to talk to anybody about the practice or why someone should either do this work or should try out the collaborative divorce.
Christina: Oh that's fantastic! Well I think the people in your state are very lucky that you decided to come back to family law.
Nicole: Thank you Christina!
Christina: So thank you for being here today! You've shared lots of great information, and good luck with the building of the collaborative community!
Nicole: Thanks, Christina! Hopefully, we talk again soon in lots of different ways.
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