Episódios
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On the Mad in America podcast this week, Brooke Siem, author of May Cause Side Effects, talks with Teralyn Sell and Jenn Schmitz about their journey from working in the prison system to challenging conventional psychiatric narratives in their therapy practice and podcast, The Gaslit Truth.
Dr. Teralyn Sell is a distinguished expert in Psychology and Brain Health, holding a PhD in Psychology and an MS in Counseling Psychology. She bridges the gap between traditional mental health care and integrative brain health solutions with formal training in holistic nutrition and biology. She is the author of Your Best Brain and the co-host of the internationally acclaimed podcast, The Gaslit Truth, where she challenges conventional narratives around mental health and medication. Dr. Teralyn is dedicated to promoting safe medication practices, responsible tapering and a paradigm shift in mental health care, one that prioritizes brain health over symptom management.
Jenn Schmitz is redefining the field of psychology with a unique blend of expertise and lived experience. Holding a Master of Science in Clinical Psychology and having spent over a decade as a traditional therapist, Jenn took a bold step beyond the conventional boundaries of Western education and mental health treatment. Her personal struggle, marked by the challenging process of tapering off psychiatric medication, revealed insights that reshaped her entire approach to mental health. As a holistic, de-prescribing consultant, Jenn integrates psychological and brain health expertise with physical wellness, mindfulness and nutrition to safely guide the brain through the intricate process of medication tapering. Jenn hosts The Gaslit Truth podcast along with Dr. Teralyn and is a writer for the international wellness publication, Live, Love and Eat magazine.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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David Goodman is the Director of the Center for Psychological Humanities and Ethics and the Dean of the Woods College of Advancing Studies at Boston College, where he also teaches in the Department of Formative Education.
A past president of the APA’s Society for Theoretical and Philosophical Psychology (Division 24), Goodman is known for his interdisciplinary work at the intersection of psychology, philosophy, theology, and ethics. He is the founder of the Psychology and the Other conference series and serves as editor of two book series: Psychology and the Other and Essays in the Psychological Humanities.
In this conversation, Goodman draws on the work of philosopher Emmanuel Levinas to reimagine therapy not as a space for self-optimization but as an encounter with responsibility—a call to become more available, interruptible, and open to the world beyond ourselves. He reflects on psychology’s history of centering the individual at the expense of the relational, critiques the structural limitations imposed by managed care systems, and shares clinical insights from his own practice.
He explores how therapy can become a site of ethical awakening rather than adjustment, and how the dominant metaphors of psychology (often drawn from consumer culture and medicine) may obscure the relational depth of human life.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Estão a faltar episódios?
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Welcome to Mad In America Radio. My name is Bob Whitaker, and today my guest is Italian psychiatrist, Giovanni Fava. From 1992 to 2022, Dr. Fava edited the journal Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics. We will be talking about the importance of that journal and what may be lost now that the publisher, Karger, may be taking it in a new direction.
Here's why this journal, under Dr. Fava’s leadership, was so important to us all. When psychiatry talks about how its drug treatments are evidence-based, it points to RCTs and meta-analyses of those RCTs as proof that its drugs are more effective than placebo.
However, Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics under Dr. Fava’s guidance presented a very different evidence base to its readers. First, his journal told of how clinical experiences should govern our understanding of the impact of psychiatric treatments, particularly over longer periods of time. Second, his journal told of how RCTs and meta-analyses when used to direct clinical practices can lead to harm. Third, his journal told of the corrupting influence of pharmaceutical money on the creation of psychiatric diagnoses and drug trials.
When Dr. Fava became editor of Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics in 1992, it had a low impact factor. When he resigned as editor in 2022, it had an impact factor that made it one of the most influential journals in psychiatry and psychology. He left the journal in good hands in 2022 and he remained involved as an honorary editor. However, in December, Karger fired one of the two editors in chief, Dr. Fava then resigned as honorary editor, and most of the editorial board resigned as well. The future of this journal, which had been so essential to our understanding of the impact of psychiatric treatments is now unclear.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Jeff Sugarman is a distinguished scholar in theoretical and philosophical psychology, known for his work examining the psychology of selfhood, human agency, and the sociopolitical underpinnings of psychological science. A Professor Emeritus in the Education Department at Simon Fraser University, Dr. Sugarman has spent decades critically interrogating the ways mainstream psychology reflects and reinforces the ideologies of neoliberalism, shaping how we understand identity, mental health, and human development.
A past president of the Society for Theoretical and Philosophical Psychology (APA Division 24) and a former associate editor of The Journal of Theoretical and Philosophical Psychology and New Ideas in Psychology, Dr. Sugarman has played a key role in advancing critical perspectives in psychology. His extensive body of work includes Persons: Understanding Psychological Selfhood and Agency (2010), Psychology and the Question of Agency (2003), and The Psychology of Human Possibility and Constraint (1999)—books that challenge psychology’s tendency to isolate individuals from history, culture, and power structures.
In this interview, he explores the philosophical foundations of psychology, the psychological costs of neoliberalism, and why developing a critical psychology of education and mental health is more urgent than ever.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Welcome to the Mad in America podcast. My name is Brooke Siem, and I’m the author of May Cause Side Effects. Today, I’m here with Rick Fee, president of the Richard Fee Foundation.
Rick joins us to talk about his son, Richard Fee and his encounter with psychiatric drugs, most notably Adderall.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Mick Cooper is a leading voice in contemporary counseling psychology, known for his work at the intersection of psychotherapy and social change. A Professor of Counseling Psychology at the University of Roehampton in the UK, Dr. Cooper is both a researcher and a practicing therapist, exploring how psychotherapeutic principles can contribute to broader political and societal transformation.
As a co-developer of the pluralistic approach to therapy, Dr. Cooper has been instrumental in advancing a model that prioritizes shared decision-making, client preferences, and integrative therapeutic practice. He serves as Acting Director of the Centre for Research in Psychological Wellbeing (CREW) and is an active member of the Therapy and Social Change Network (TaSC). His research focuses on humanistic and existential therapies, client engagement, and the role of psychotherapy in fostering personal and collective agency.
Dr. Cooper’s latest book, Psychology at the Heart of Social Change: Developing a Progressive Vision for Society,examines how psychological theory and practice can be leveraged to create a more equitable world.
In this interview, he speaks with Mad in America’s Javier Rizo about the intersections of therapy and politics, the importance of pluralism in mental health care, and the future of counseling psychology as a force for progressive change.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Brent Dean Robbins is a psychologist, scholar, and all-around thoughtful human whose work has profoundly shaped existential and humanistic psychology.
He is one of those rare thinkers who makes psychology feel alive—not just a collection of theories and data, but a field full of urgent, deeply human questions. He’s a professor of psychology and the director of the Psy.D. in Clinical Psychology program at Point Park University, where he’s helped create one of the most distinctive training programs in the country. He earned his Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from Duquesne University—home to some of the most beautifully dense phenomenological work you'll ever have to read twice—and is a licensed psychologist in Pennsylvania.
In this two-part conversation, we’ll explore Brent’s career—from his early work critiquing the overmedication of children to his scholarship on metabletics and cultural therapeutics. We’ll also discuss how he’s navigating his current health journey and cancer diagnosis as an existential psychologist and his hopes for the future of the field—how we might reimagine mental health care in ways that embrace the messy, wondrous, irreducible nature of being human.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Brent Dean Robbins is a psychologist, scholar, and all-around thoughtful human whose work has profoundly shaped existential and humanistic psychology.
He is one of those rare thinkers who makes psychology feel alive—not just a collection of theories and data, but a field full of urgent, deeply human questions. He’s a professor of psychology and the director of the Psy.D. in Clinical Psychology program at Point Park University, where he’s helped create one of the most distinctive training programs in the country. He earned his Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from Duquesne University—home to some of the most beautifully dense phenomenological work you'll ever have to read twice—and is a licensed psychologist in Pennsylvania.
In this two-part conversation, we’ll explore Brent’s career—from his early work critiquing the overmedication of children to his scholarship on metabletics and cultural therapeutics. We’ll also discuss how he’s navigating his current health journey and cancer diagnosis as an existential psychologist and his hopes for the future of the field—how we might reimagine mental health care in ways that embrace the messy, wondrous, irreducible nature of being human.
***
Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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In this interview, Brooke Siem, who is the author of a memoir on antidepressant withdrawal, May Cause Side Effects, interviews Gretchen LeFever Watson, PhD.
Gretchen is a developmental and clinical psychologist with postdoctoral training in pediatric psychology. She has served as a professor in multiple disciplines at universities and medical schools in the United States and abroad and as the patient safety director for a large healthcare system. She secured millions in federal funding to study the epidemiology of psychiatric drug use and to develop community-based strategies that reduce reliance on psychiatric labels and medications—strategies that also improved educational outcomes.
In 2008, BMJ recognized her as one of 100 international scientists journalists could count on for unbiased reviews of health research. Dr. Watson is an academic affiliate at the University of South Carolina and the author of the Amazon bestseller Your Patient Safety Survival Guide: How to Protect Yourself and Others from Medical Errors. She lives in Virginia Beach and loves to windsurf.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Becky Brasfield has emerged as a formidable advocate for change in the complex landscape of mental health care. A certified recovery support specialist and policy researcher at the Human Services Research Institute, Ms. Brasfield has dedicated her career to elevating the voices of service users and dismantling systemic inequities. Her lived experience with psychosis, combined with her leadership in peer support, has made her a powerful critic of traditional psychiatric models that often marginalize those they aim to help.
Her resume includes service as president of the NAMI Illinois Alliance of Peer Professionals, the state’s first peer professional association, and recognition as one of Crain’s Notable Black Leaders and Executives. She has been a fellow with both the IL Care and HSRI Behavioral Health Policy programs and was appointed Commissioner of the Southeast Expanded Mental Health Services Program.
But Ms. Brasfield’s work is as personal and political as it is professional. In this interview, she speaks with Mad in America’s Ayurdhi Dhar about her path to recovery, the harmful impacts of medical gaslighting, and why the future of mental health justice depends on centering the expertise of those with lived experience.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2025. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Susan Grundy is an author who writes about the weight of emotional distress and an easier way of being. Her book, Mad Sisters, is a highly personal account of her caregiving journey for an older sister diagnosed with schizophrenia at the age of 13. When not at her writing desk, Susan can be found walking in nature towards a café. She divides her time between Montreal and London.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
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Ellen Vora is a board-certified psychiatrist, acupuncturist, and yoga teacher. She's the author of The Anatomy of Anxiety and takes a functional medicine approach to mental health. She considers the whole person and addresses imbalance at the root. Dr. Vora received her BA from Yale University and her MD from Columbia University.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow by becoming a subscriber. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Rose Cartwright is a screenwriter and the author of Pure, a hugely successful memoir which was then turned into a series for Channel Four. She is also a writer and producer on Netflix’s 3 Body Problem. Pure portrayed Rose’s autobiographical account of finding that she had OCD, a “mental illness”, and the breakthrough that this medical framework provided her. This was short-lived. In her new book The Maps We Carry, she writes about the dawning realization that the “illness” story she had believed in and publicly advocated for, was wretchedly incomplete and often dangerous.
In this interview, Cartwright charts her journey of painful and lonely disillusionment with the “mental illness” framework. She talks about understanding the place of her own childhood trauma and also the limitations of simplistic trauma narratives. She speaks about the place of psychedelics and meditation in helping her uncover her disconnection, eventually to realize the importance of trusting relationships and communities. In this brutally honest book and interview, Cartwright reflects on the importance of holding all our understandings around mental health and suffering, lightly.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Dr. Paul Andrews is an Associate Professor of Evolutionary Psychology in the Department of Psychology, Neuroscience and Behaviour at McMaster University. His research focuses on understanding the evolution of depression, which he argues may be an evolved emotional response for understanding and solving complex problems. Dr. Andrews is also concerned with the evolution of the serotonin system and the effects of antidepressants on mental and physical health. His research has shown an increased risk of cardiovascular events, as well as death among those who use antidepressants.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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In this interview, Brooke Siem, who is the author of a memoir on antidepressant withdrawal, May Cause Side Effects, interviews her mother, Dee Barbash, to discuss the circumstances that led to Brooke being prescribed a cocktail of antidepressants at the age of 15. Today, her mother is a therapist who helps her clients taper from psychiatric medications – a profession that she took up after she came to understand the harms that Brooke suffered from having been prescribed these drugs for 15 years.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow.
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore
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Daniel José Gaztambide is an assistant professor of psychology at Queens College and the director of the Frantz Fanon Lab for Decolonial Psychology. His research and clinical work focus on Puerto Rican and Latinx populations, ethnic minority identity, psychotherapy, and the social determinants of health.
Daniel is the author of A People’s History of Psychoanalysis: From Freud to Liberation Psychology and the newly published Decolonizing Psychoanalytic Technique: Putting Freud on Fanon’s Couch.
He earned his doctorate from Rutgers University, where he specialized in multicultural psychology, anxiety, and trauma. Beyond his clinical practice, Daniel is deeply committed to addressing racial injustice through his writing and activism. He has served as a liaison to the American Psychological Association (APA) on racial and ethnic minority issues and contributed to the APA’s 2020-2021 Taskforce on Strategies for the Elimination of Racism, Discrimination, and Hate.
In our conversation, Daniel highlights the importance of cultural humility and understanding the impact of marginalization across race, class, gender, and ability on psychotherapy. His latest book provides a blend of clinical techniques and political strategies to address these complex issues through a decolonial psychoanalytic lens.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow.
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore
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Our guest today is Banning Lyon, author of The Chair and The Valley: A Memoir of Trauma, Healing, and The Outdoors. An account of the abuse he suffered after being hospitalized in a psychiatric facility at age 15 and the long journey toward joy and awe that followed, his memoir was published this spring by Penguin Random House. He first wrote about his experiences in 1993 for The New York Times and, more recently, for the Washington Post.
Based in California’s bay area, Lyon is an outdoor educator and backpacking guide whose engagement with nature was a key force in his recovery. His website is banninglyon.com.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow.
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore
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Jazmine Russell is the co-founder of the Institute for the Development of Human Arts (IDHA), a transformative mental health training institute, and the host of the Depth Work Podcast. As a writer, educator, and scholar, Jazmine works at the intersection of mad studies, critical psychology, and neuroscience. Her work is deeply informed by her lived experiences surviving complex trauma, psychosis, and an autoimmune disease.
Jazmine's focus extends to the intersection of mental health and chronic illness, particularly exploring the overlap of psychosis, trauma, and autoimmunity. This has led her to bridge critical neuroscience communities with the mad movement. In addition to her scholarly pursuits, Jazmine continues to see clients as a trauma-informed holotropic breathwork practitioner.
She is also a co-editor of the forthcoming Mad Studies Reader: Interdisciplinary Innovations in Mental Health (Routledge, 2024). Today, we will delve into her background, her journey to co-founding IDHA, her current work and podcast, and the insights she offers in the upcoming Mad Studies Reader.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow.
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore
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In this interview for MIA Radio, Brooke Siem speaks with David Taylor and Mark Horowitz about their publication of the Maudsley Deprescribing Guidelines, which is of particular note since the Maudsley Prescribing Guidelines is a leading text in medicine worldwide.
David Taylor is the Director of Pharmacy and Pathology at Maudsley Hospital and a Professor of Psychopharmacology at King's College in London. He is also the editor-in-chief of the journal Therapeutic Advances in Psychopharmacology. Beyond academia, he contributes significantly to public health policy as a member of the United Kingdom's Department of Transport expert panel that introduced drug-driving regulations. He is also a current member of the UK government's Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs and is the only pharmacist to have been made an honorary fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. David is the lead author of the Maudsley Prescribing Guidelines, a role he has held since their inception in 1993.
The Maudsley Prescribing Guidelines have achieved significant success, with over 300,000 copies sold across 14 editions and translations into 12 languages. David has also authored 450 clinical papers published in prominent journals such as The Lancet, BMJ, British Journal of Psychiatry, and Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. His work has been cited over 25,000 times.
Mark Horowitz is a clinical research fellow in psychiatry at the National Health Service (NHS) in London. He is a Visiting Lecturer in Psychopharmacology at King's College London and an Honorary Clinical Research Fellow at University College London, in addition to being a trainee psychiatrist. Mark holds a PhD from the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology, and Neuroscience at King's College London, specializing in the neurobiology of depression and antidepressant action. He is the lead author of the Maudsley Deprescribing Guidelines and an associate editor of Therapeutic Advances in Psychopharmacology.
Mark co-authored the recent Royal College of Psychiatry's guidance on stopping antidepressants, and his work has informed the recent NICE guidelines on the safe tapering of psychiatric medications, including antidepressants, benzodiazepines, and z-drugs. He has collaborated with the NHS to develop national guidance for safe deprescribing for clinicians and has been commissioned by Health Education England to prepare a teaching module on how to safely stop antidepressants.
Mark has published several papers on safe approaches to tapering psychiatric medications, with contributions in The Lancet Psychiatry, JAMA Psychiatry, and Schizophrenia Bulletin. His interest lies in rational psychopharmacology and the deprescribing of psychiatric medications, which is deeply informed by his personal experiences of the challenges associated with coming off psychiatric medications.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow. https://www.madinamerica.com/donate/
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here: https://pod.link/1212789850
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore https://www.jmaudio.org
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Carl Elliott is a distinguished professor at the University of Minnesota with joint appointments in the Department of Philosophy and the School of Journalism and Mass Communications.
An influential voice in bioethics, Elliott is known for his critical examination of the medical and pharmaceutical industries. His latest book, The Occasional Human Sacrifice: Medical Experimentation and the Price of Saying No,describes the harrowing experiences of whistleblowers who expose corruption and malpractice in clinical trials and psychiatric research.
Originally from South Carolina, Elliott's diverse academic background includes a medical degree and a PhD in philosophy from Glasgow University in Scotland. His extensive postdoctoral work has taken him to institutions such as the University of Chicago, the University of Otago in New Zealand, and the Nelson Mandela School of Medicine in South Africa. Elliott is the author and editor of several influential books, including Better than Well: American Medicine Meets the American Dream and White Coat and Black Hat: Adventures on the Dark Side of Medicine. His articles have been featured in prestigious publications such as The New Yorker, The Atlantic Monthly, Mother Jones, and The New England Journal of Medicine (as well as Mad in America). Elliott's critical work in bioethics has earned him numerous accolades, including the Erikson Prize for Excellence in Mental Health Media and a fellowship at the Safra Center for Ethics at Harvard University.
His investigative work has shed light on numerous scandals, including the tragic case of Dan Markingson, a young man who died during a controversial clinical trial at the University of Minnesota. In this interview, Elliott discusses the systemic issues that protect wrongdoers, the personal and professional toll on those who speak out, and the broader implications for ethics in medical research and practice.
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Thank you for being with us to listen to the podcast and read our articles this year. MIA is funded entirely by reader donations. If you value MIA, please help us continue to survive and grow.
To find the Mad in America podcast on your preferred podcast player, click here
© Mad in America 2024. Produced by James Moore
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