Эпизоды
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This MBM conversation is with Nusrat Jafri, author of the memoir ‘This Land We Call Home’. In this book, Nusrat traces her maternal history going back to her great grand-father, who was originally part of the Bhantu tribe, and later adopted Christianity as a way to overcome the ostracisation imposed upon him and his family for belonging to what the British deemed as ‘criminal tribes’.
Nusrat’s book offers a window into the lives and choices of her grand aunts, who with the help of Christian missionaries’ efforts got access to education and opportunities to become the first women to study in boarding schools, have varied career choices, travel abroad, marry or not by their own choices, and in effect become role models for her. She writes about her mother Meera, born in the year of India’s independence, who also carved a path of her own, fell in love with a Muslim man, decided to convert to Islam, and effectively raised Nusrat and her siblings in a Muslim household.
This conversation takes a deeper dive into Nusrat’s years growing up in a cultural milieu where the term conversion was not a loaded one and where being a Muslim came with a space to ask questions to arrive at one's own answers. We talk about many layers of this Muslim identity, including gender, caste, class and how one carries their Muslimness in the world and country we find ourselves today. Do give this episode a listen and share it with your friends, family and loved ones.
About Nusrat Jafri
Nusrat Jafri, is a Mumbai based award-winning cinematographer. She has over fifteen years of experience in filmmaking. Born and brought up in Lucknow, she moved to New Delhi for graduation and post-graduation in Mass Communication. Her professional journey includes stints as a journalist with The Pioneer and CNBC Awaaz. Nusrat is a mentee of the first cohort (2021) of South Asia Speaks. She was featured in the second edition of Rising Beyond The Ceiling: 100 stereotype-shattering stories of Muslim women of Uttar Pradesh, India. She lives in Mumbai with her husband, son and a cat named Jamia.
You can learn about her book and find links to purchase here.
Episode Notes:
* From the memoir: How Bhantus, a ‘criminal tribe’, found acceptance from Christian missionaries (Excerpt from the book, This Land We Call Home by Nusrat Jafri, Scroll, June 2024)
* Ants Among Elephants: An Untouchable Family and the Making of Modern India by Sujatha Gidla (Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2018)
* Understanding Ganga-Jamuni Tehzeeb: How diverse is the "Indian multiculturalism"(Rana Safvi, DNA, June 2014)
* “Many see Indian Muslims as suspect foreigners, despite the fact that most are descendants of Hindus who converted to Islam.” India’s Muslims: An Increasingly Marginalized Population (Lindsay Maizland, Council on Foreign Relations, March 2024)
* Chhattisgarh: Hindutva group attacks Christian families, forces to sign pact to ‘convert within ten days’ (Sidra Fatima, Maktoob Media, June 2024)
* Issue Update: India’s State Level Anti-Conversion Laws (United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, March 2023)
* Religious Composition of India - All religious groups in India show major declines in fertility rates, limiting change in the country’s religious composition over time (Pew Research Center, September 2021)
* 25 years later, long shadow of the Staines murders (Debabrata Mohanty, Hindustan Times, January 2024)
* Why caste among Muslims must be studied (by Shireen Azam and Srinivas Goli, The Indian Express, May 2022)
* Caste Among Indian Muslims Is a Real Issue. So Why Deny Them Reservation? (Pratik Patnaik, The Wire, December 2020)
MBM visual identity design by Shazia Salam || Music by Jupneet Singh
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
This conversation is with Nazia Akhtar, Assistant Professor at the Human Sciences Research Centre, International Institute of Information Technology, Hyderabad and the author of Bibi’s Room: Hyderabadi Women and Twentieth-Century Urdu Prose, in which she has profiled three prolific Hyderabadi Urdu writers, namely Zeenath Sajida, Najma Nikhat and Jeelani Bano.
We discuss some of the most influential and invigorating writings by these women, notably stories like Sajida’s ‘If Allah Miyan Were A Woman’, which offers a critical and compassionate outlook of womanhood in negotiation with one’s Muslim beliefs, Nikhat’s writings that starkly brought out the behaviours and attitudes of feudal class, and Bano’s body of work spanning almost fifty years. We also discuss Dakhani as a language of the Deccan soil and ‘Begumati Zubaan’ that opens a world of its own through communications between women interacting with one another. Through this conversation, Nazia offers a nuanced understanding of the lives of these women in post-Independence decades in Hyderabad, who as Nazia puts were “thrice marginalised”.
Bibi’s Room is an invaluable source of Indian Muslim women’s writings challenging patriarchal structures and norms within and outside their circles, and expands the canon of feminist Urdu writings in the country. Do give this episode a listen, and pick up the book, wherever you can.
About Nazia Akhtar (bio republished with permission by the author)
Nazia Akhtar is an Assistant Professor at the Human Sciences Research Centre, International Institute of Information Technology (IIIT), Hyderabad (India), where she teaches courses in Indian and Russian literatures. In 2017, she was awarded a New India Foundation fellowship to write a book on Urdu prose by Hyderabadi women. Bibi’s Room: Hyderabadi Women and Twentieth-Century Urdu Prose went into print in July 2022. She received a commendation from the jury of the Jawad Memorial Prize (2021) for her translation of Zeenath Sajida’s Urdu short story “Chhotam Jaan.” Her second book, The Deccan Sun: Essays and Stories by Zeenath Sajida (1924-2009), will be published by Penguin Random House in 2025.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
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What does it mean to be a Muslim woman from Bundelkhand living through its socio-economic and political realities? What are their aspirations and expectations from the upcoming elections? How do they imagine their futures as citizens of this country?
These are some questions that Main Bhi Muslim and Khabar Lahariya follow in this episode, speaking to Muslim women voters across Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh - mainly in Jhansi, Banda, Chitrakoot, Panna, and Ayodhya to listen to their aspirations, their hopes, and bear witness to their fears and anxieties.
These women across all age groups are homemakers, recent graduates, working women, community builders and social activists, who offer a deeper understanding of the on-ground realities of their society.
These interviews and recordings are mostly conducted by Khabar Lahariya’s Senior Reporter, Nazni Rizvi, with additional recordings by KL reporters Kumkum Yadav and Alima. In the episode, Nazni later shares her own views on interacting with these women some of whom chose to remain anonymous, whose voices are often less heard in the gamut of electoral politics but are ever important, especially now. She also shares instances of her own experiences as a journalist and a Muslim woman observing the change in norms and sentiments within the society she lives and works in.
Recent reports on issues and topics raised by women in the podcast:
* Unemployment: बेरोज़गारी की मार झेलता छतैनी गाँव पलायन करने को हुआ मजबूर | UP Elections 2022 (Khabar Lahariya, February 2022)
* Anti-Muslim violence and fear within community: “हिन्दू राष्ट्र” बनता भारत, लक्ष्य एक “मुस्लिमों को….”, सुरक्षा-आज़ादी सिर्फ एक धर्म के नाम (Sandhya, Khabar Lahariya, August 2023)
* Price hike of gas cylinders: वाराणसी: महंगे सिलिंडर ने लौटाए चूल्हे के दिन (Khabar Lahariya, November 2021)
* Vegetables price hike: हाय रे… महंगाई ने कमर तोड़ डाली (Khabar Lahariya, July 2023)
* House tax prices: चुनाव जीतने पर ख़त्म करूँगा हाउस टैक्स -प्रमोद सोनी उम्मीदवार | नगर निकाय चुनाव 2022 (Khabar Lahariya, November 2022)
* Absence of state support for people with disabilities: चित्रकूट : दिव्यांग परिवार को नहीं मिली आवास, शौचालय व पेंशन जैसी सुविधाएं (Khabar Lahariya, October 2022)
* Intertwined Hindu-Muslim religious sites at Jhansi: झांसी के दरगाह शरीफ में बना मंदिर-मज़ार है हिन्दू-मुस्लिम के प्रेम व एकता का प्रतीक (Sandhya, Khabar Lahariya, February 2024)
* Uttar Pradesh removes loudspeakers from religious sites (The Hindu, April 2022)
* Delhi Police suspend official caught on camera kicking Muslim men offering prayers (Independent, March 2024)
Do subscribe to MBM to receive more episodes and rate/review it wherever you listen to podcasts.
This episode is in collaboration with Khabar Lahariya - India’s only digital news network run by women from marginalised backgrounds reporting from the country’s hinterlands. Subscribe to KL Hatke to receive on-ground reportage by women journalists in rural India.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this episode, MBM’s host Mariyam Haider is in conversation with Risana Rasheed from Kasargod, Kerala, who along with her twin sister, Ramseena, became the first women in their community to clear the JEE advanced, considered one of the toughest entrance exams, to enter the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT). Do check out EP27 with Ramseena Rasheed, to learn more about their early educational years and journeys.
This episode contains personal views of the guest regarding the said academic institution.
In this episode, Risana shares her coming of age story as a young woman, navigating priorities, lifestyle and identity choices, simply keeping one goal in mind - to build a life through academic achievement. After clearing IIT, Risana found herself in a new place, unlearning and learning aspects of herself, experiencing realities being perceived as a visible Muslim woman, especially coming from a non-Hindi speaking background into a predominantly North Indian setting.
Risana also offers a window into her experience at the campus, how her OBC background was brought into spotlight through caste-oriented questions by other students and the impact it had on her and those coming from other reserved categories. While Risana shares her personal experience and coping mechanisms to wade through her higher education and early career years, if you are a listener going through something similar, please do consider seeking professional counselling and community support.
About Risana Rasheed*
Risana Rasheed is a software engineer based in Bangalore, currently working at Harness.io. She pursued her Bachelor's degree in Electrical Engineering from IIT Roorkee (2017-21 batch) and has previously held roles as an SDE at Amazon and Enphase Energy.
Her professional passion lies in crafting scalable, robust, and user-friendly software solutions. Outside of work, she immerses herself in various creative pursuits and enjoys exploring different parts of India, capturing experiences through travel content on Instagram. She also finds solace in creating paintings and finding fulfilment in assisting students with career guidance and counselling.
*Bio and image published with guest’s permission.
Episode notes:
* Child marriage awareness lacking in Kerala’s remote places: Justice Mustaque (The New Indian Express, February 2024)
* Risana Rasheed’s Instagram
* Mappila Muslim Culture - How a Historic Muslim Community in India Has Blended Tradition and Modernity by Roland E. Miller
* 1 Out Of 3 SC/ST Students Asked About Their Caste: IIT-Bombay 2022 Survey (Aakriti Handa, The Quint, April 2023)
* 33 IIT students died by suicide in last 5 years: Govt (The Indian Express, April 2023)
MBM visual identity design by Shazia Salam || Music by Jupneet Singh
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this episode, MBM’s host Mariyam Haider is in conversation with Ramseena Rasheed from Kasargod, Kerala, who along with her twin sister, Risana, became the first women in their community to clear Joint Entrance Examination (JEE)-advanced, considered one of the toughest entrance exams, to enter the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT).
Ramseena offers a window into her upbringing in a working-class family, the unconditional support from her parents, and wading through patriarchal attitudes of relatives and sexist or Islamophobic notions of teachers over the course of her schooling and engineering coaching.
For Ramseena, her five years at IIT were filled with cultural exposure, tireless competition and a drive to find a job to financially support her family. Currently working in the corporate sector in Bengaluru, she shares many instances of her professional life through social media, and despite experiencing online trolling over her visible Muslim identity or views, Ramseena continues to offer advice and learnings to young career aspirants from her hometown and across the country. We discuss this and many more things that make Ramseena’s journey truly an inspiration for many young women in the country.
About Ramseena Rasheed
Ramseena Rasheed holds a BTech and MTech degree in Aerospace Engineering from IIT Kharagpur (2017-2022 batch). Currently, she is working as a backend developer for Aerospace software at AIRBUS, Bangalore, and is passionate about AI, ML related topics and their applications in the aerospace industry.
*Bio and image published with guest’s permission.
Episode notes:
* Inspiring Journey Of Twin Muslim IITian Sisters From Kasargod Draws Unwarranted Criticism On Social Media (Shahzeen Khan, The Observer Post, January ‘24)
* Ramseena Rasheed’s Instagram
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this conversation, MBM’s producer and host, Mariyam Haider speaks with Sulfath Laila and Gargi Harithakam, who are the co-founders of Vanaja Collective - that supports and helps couples from Kerala’s queer community, overcome their families’ resistance and find systemic avenues to bring them together. One of the successful cases that Vanaja Collective worked on was of Adhila Nasarin and Fathima Noora - who fought familial and legal challenges - to reunite and live together as a couple.
As a queer Muslim woman, Sulfath shares their journey growing up in a household that was largely driven by men and followed patriarchal norms and expectations. Over the years, Sulfath notes how they have derived support and strength from the women in her family, fought patriarchal mindsets and come together to tackle Muslim stereotypes and unjust rhetoric in other spaces. Sulfath also shares how queer voices from within Kerala’s Muslim community are emerging and voicing themselves in price marches and other public dialogues and initiatives.
Gargi discusses how ill-practices such as ‘conversion therapy’ continue to exist that harm the LGBTQI+ community and despite it being outlawed, is often used by families against their own kin. Gargi and Sulfath underline their commitment through Vanaja Collective towards expanding spaces of conversations and support for people from other marginalised backgrounds. We discuss how Malayalam cinema has a long way to go in showcasing stories with feminist characters and queer couples whose love stories do not end in misery or tragic circumstances. Finally, we engage in ways that listeners can support Vanaja Collective’s fundraising efforts and stay connected with them. All details are mentioned on MBM’s website.
You can support Vanaja Collective’s ongoing fundraiser by donating through the link here: https://milaap.org/fundraisers/support-the-organisation-4
Episode notes:
* Kerala student dies in Goa, death puts focus on inhuman 'conversion therapy' on queer people (Cris, The News Minute, May 2020)
* ‘Conversion therapy’ still continues in India, despite a ban (Sukanya Shaji, The News Minute, August 2023)
* Kerala study reveals 45% prevalence of conversion therapy among LGBTQIA+ persons (Cris, The News Minute, February 2023)
* Kerala's lesbian couples share heart-warming photos from a memorable get-together (Onmanorama, July 2023)
* Queer Representation In Malayalam Cinema: The Past, The Present, And The Possible Future (Rhea F, Feminism In India, July 2023)
* The youth of Kerala want to make gay marriage legal (Mathrubhumi, March 2021)
* Malayalam films that tried to explore LGBTQ+ representation (Pooja Pillai, Pink Lungi, September 2023)
* Movies discussed in the episode:
* Desatanakkili Karayarilla (1986)
* Sancharram (2004)
* Moothon (2019)
* The Great Indian Kitchen (2021)
* Badhaai Do (2022)
* Queerphobia in Kerala: A Student Fights For Gender Identity on College Campus (Smitha TK, The Quint, December 2022)
* Kerala: Lesbian Couple’s Harrowing Journey Shines Light on Continuing Dangers of ‘Conversion Therapy’ (Mrudula Bhavani, The Wire, July 2023)
* Kerala lesbian couple separated by parents, united by High Court, drops a viral bridal photoshoot (Shaurya Thapa, DailyO, November 2022)
MBM visual identity design by Sunakshi Nigam || Music by Jupneet Singh
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
Main Bhi Muslim’s last episode of the year is with the spirited and incredible human being, Sabika Abbas, aka @boltiaurat on Instagram.
Sabika is a poet, organiser, SEL educator and story-teller. Her work revolves around issues of gender, minority rights and justice. She performs in public spaces, edits anthologies, translates and is constantly working on at least five dreamy or nonsensical side projects. If not for her work, she would be a full time stand-up comic or leading a cult of ‘doing nothing’. After working with change.org and Fearless Collective, Sabika, is currently the Organising and Campaigns Lead at Noor.*
In this episode, Sabika takes us down her memory lane growing up in a mosque complex in Lucknow, how her Muslim upbringing has shaped her view of life and helped in using her voice against injustice and oppression. We discuss her journey being a poet performing on the streets and how her poems belong to the people and streets she shares them with. Sabika also talks about the current realities for Indian Muslims and the constant reconciliations one does when the country one is born in and belongs to, denies it acceptance and protection. Finally, we talk about love of all kinds, how kindred friendships keep our hearts and souls warm, and ending with a beautiful poem by Sabika talking about what being a lover means to her in current times.
This episode is recorded to commemorate and celebrate the anniversary** of the 2019 Shaheen Bagh protests led by Indian Muslim women. Do give this episode a listen, share it within your circles and recognise your part in standing up for justice and liberation for all.
*Bio republished with permission by the guest.
**The episode host mistakenly says third anniversary of the Shaheen Bagh protests in the conversation. This year marks the fourth anniversary. The error is regretted.
Episode notes:
* How Pro-BJP WhatsApp, Facebook Groups Are Using the Israel-Hamas War to Stoke Islamophobia (Kunal Purohit, The Wire, October, 2023)
* India terror law haunts Muslims jailed since 2020 for Delhi riots (Hanan Zaffar and Danish Pandit, Al Jazeera, February, 2023)
* US Commission on International Religious Freedom (names of political prisoners mentioned in the episode)
* Gulfisha Fatima
* Umar Khalid
* Khalid Saifi
* Natasha Narwal
* Devangana Kalita
* Siddique Kappan: India journalist walks out of jail after 2 years (Al Jazeera, February, 2023)
* Why Shaheen Bagh protests are an important moment in India’s history (Elizabeth Puranam, Al Jazeera, February, 2020)
* Building allyship & solidarity through shared tiffins - a childhood memory, present-day friendships and action-filled hope to tide over hate and othering (Mariyam Haider, Substack, August, 2023)
* Sabika Abbas Naqvi: Reclaiming public spaces through poetry (INKtalks, February, 2020)
* ‘Bulli Bai’, 'Sulli Deals': On Being Put Up for ‘Auction’ as an Indian Muslim Woman (Mariya Salim, The Wire, January, 2022)
* ‘Auction’ of India’s Muslim women shows tech weaponised for abuse (Al Jazeera, January, 2022)
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this MBM conversation, Mariyam Haider speaks to Zoya who identify as a “They/Them with a She/Her vibe” and defines themselves as a “queer soul with the vibrant hues of a Transwoman, embracing the diverse rhythms of life.” In this episode, Zoya shares their journey exploring gender fluidity, and discusses how this exploration has enabled them to have more meaningful relationships. They also share their relationship with their Indian Muslim identity and the ways it shows up in their life.
A DEI professional, Zoya sheds light on the challenges and opportunities present within the corporate spaces, the Supreme Court ruling that failed to grant same-sex couples marriage rights in India, and the responsibilities of allies across the board.
Finally, we talk about finding love and discuss the role of queer and minority representation in certain Hindi movies and the recent Amazon series, Made In Heaven, Season 2. This month in which we observe Trans Awareness Week and Transgender Day of Remembrance, do give this episode a listen and share it with your loved ones.
Episode notes
* Faith & Queerness: Finding The Intersection Between Religion And Homosexuality ((Gaysi), 2 August, 2022)
* SC Refuses to Legalise Marriage Equality, 2 of 5 Judges Say Queer Couples Must Be Given Legal Rights (The Wire, 17 October, 2023)
* NATIONAL LEGAL SERVICES AUTHORITY (NALSA) VS. UNION OF INDIA (South Asian Trans Law Database, Centre for Law and Policy Research)
* Full NALSA Judgement 2014
* Breaking news: India falls short to granting marriage rights to same-sex couples but the Chief Justice articulated unprecedented assertion of queerness and trans rights in verdict (Fabrice Houdart, Substack, 17 October, 2023)
* Nepal Courts Refuse to Register Same-Sex Marriages - Lower Courts Defy Supreme Court Order (Human Rights Watch, October 10, 2023)
* How Made in Heaven Tests Limits of Secular, Liberal Imagination of Muslim Women (Zehra Mehdi, The Quint, 2 September 2023)
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this conversation, Mariyam Haider is joined by two of Parcham’s footballers and licensed coaches, 21-year old Madina Bi and 19-year old Fatima Shaikh.
Mumbra-based, Madina and Fatima share their journeys with football and negotiating with family members to make it part of their lives. While Madina’s parents are understanding and supportive, Fatema had and continues to have a difficult relationship with her family when it comes to her aspirations.
Listeners discretion is advised as this episode mentions instances of physical violence, and the notes of this interview have time-codes, in case listeners want to be aware of them before listening (9.46 and 21.59 min)*.
We discuss the challenges that the girls and other female footballers face in Mumbra to practise football, the need for more administrative and corporate support in maintaining the Fatima Bi Savitri Bai Ground for girls, and what more can be done for Mumbra’s aspiring sports women.
They both offer a breadth of understanding around Muslim women’s dreams, their stand against sometimes violent patriarchal systems, and the tireless negotiation for spaces they occupy as young women.
Madina dreams and aspires to join the Gokulam Kerala Football Club and Fatema wants to keep learning and playing, as she continues to also support her family financially. This Independence Day, give this episode a listen, hear the voices of two inspiring and talented Indian Muslim women, who are fighting the fight against all odds that stand in front of them to live their football dreams.
*At these time-codes, there are mentions of physical violence.
Episode notes and associated references:
* Why the Parcham Collective is fighting for a football ground for Mumbra’s girls (Mint Lounge, October, 2021)
* The remarkable story of Jammu and Kashmir footballer Afshan Ashiq (Hindustan Times, 2017)
* For the love of the game: Indian women defy sexism, abuse to chase football dream (South China Morning Post, December, 2022)
* Sports for Peace, Sports for Empowerment (Parcham Collective)
Visual identity design by Sunakshi Nigam || Music by Jupneet Singh
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this conversation, MBM’s Mariyam Haider is joined by Sabah Khan, Co-Founder of Parcham - a Mumbai-based feminist organisation that champions inclusion, diversity and equality within the society. For more than a decade, Parcham has been running a football program that trains girls from marginalised communities and different religious backgrounds to become footballers and coaches.
Their football program began in Mumbra (a predominantly Muslim ghetto on the outskirts of Mumbai) and over the years has expanded across different suburban areas of the metropolis. Through this football initiative, Parcham has helped girls tackle conservatism and orthodoxy within their families and communities, and at the same time, enabled them to reclaim public spaces for themselves.
In this episode, Sabah shares her own journey growing up in a ghetto, the impact of the 1992-93 anti-Muslim violence in Mumbai on her, reasons for starting Parcham and the journey of young Muslim female footballers over the years. This conversation focuses on how these girls often had to fight for their interest in sports with their families, tackle sexism at home and on ground, how mothers and fathers have come around and supported many on their football journeys, and what more needs to be done to support them build their lives around a sport they have come to love.
Episode notes
* In Mumbra, Girls From Ghettoised Minorities Are Kicking Their Way To Independence (Outlook, February 2023)
* Documentary: Under the Open Sky (School of Media and Cultural Studies, Tata Institute of Social Sciences, Mumbai, April 2018)
* Sabah Khan, Reimagining Play In: Sports Studies in India. Edited by: Meena Gopal and Padma Prakash (Oxford University Press, 2021)
* IWL 2023: Gokulam Kerala fittingly winners again, but India’s top female footballers deserve better (Scroll, May 2023)
* Meet the Indian wrestlers taking on Modi’s establishment (Financial Times Magazine, June 2023)
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
This conversation is between Dr Sabiha Bhoomigowda, retired Vice Chancellor of Karnataka State Women’s Akkamahadevi University, Vijayapura, and scholar Dr Sukanya Kanarally who has kindly interviewed Dr Sabiha on behalf of MBM. Dr Sabiha is a literary critic and was a friend of the late Kannada author, Sara Aboobacker.
This episode is dedicated to discussing Sara Aboobacker’s journey as a writer who was deeply influenced by her background as a Muslim woman from the Beary community - predominantly based in the South-Western coast of India. Sara wrote about the issues and prejudices concerning Muslim women within the community often at the hands of the clergy class.
Her breakthrough novel, Chandragiriya Teeradalli, translated into English as Breaking Ties or Nadira, established her as the leading Muslim woman writer in Kannada literature. A progressive writer, she used her voice and writing as mediums not just to express support for Muslim women’s rights, but also gender equality, women’s education, communal harmony and stand against caste or religious-based discrimination, violence and injustice. She was awarded the Karnataka Sahitya Akademi Award in 1984; followed by other recognitions for her contribution to Kannada literature.
Sara Aboobacker passed away in January 2023 at the age of 86, but has left behind a legacy of progressive writings and thinking that continues to influence writers and scholars beyond Kannada literature.
At the beginning of this episode, you will hear me in conversation with scholar Dr Sukanya Kanarally, who has kindly translated Dr Sabiha’s responses to my questions. Post the English introduction, the conversation is between Dr Sabiha Bhoomigowda and Dr Sukanya in Kannada. The full English transcript of this conversation is available on MBM’s website, that is mainbhimuslim.com.
This interview was conducted in Kannada, and the English transcript can be found on MBM's website.
About Dr Sabiha Bhoomigowda
Dr. Sabiha Bhoomigowda, retired Vice Chancellor of Karnataka State Women’s Akkamahadevi University, Vijayapura, began her career as an Assistant Professor in Kannada at SVP College, Mangalore and continued to serve as a Professor and Head of the Department of Kannada. She served as the Director-in-charge at the Centre for Post-graduate Studies, Mangalore University, at Chikka Aluvara. She has successfully completed seven research projects alongside supervising many students in their doctoral research.
Dr. Sabiha Bhoomigowda is a writer too. She has published twenty books that span across genres like poetry, short story, essay, life story, literary criticism, column writing, and women’s studies. She has known Sara Aboobacker from close quarters as a friend and a critic. She has been one of the editors of Sara Aboobacker’s felicitation volume. She has also co-edited twenty seven research and literary works. Several of her poems, short stories and essays have been anthologised in the university textbooks.
Dr. Sabiha Bhoomigowda strongly believes that there should be no chasm between academics and social activism and that the society truly benefits only from such integrity. She has served as the President of Karavali Women Writers and Readers for two terms. She has also been serving Karnataka State Federation for Atrocity Against Women since its very inception.
Selected episode notes
* Sara Aboobacker’s biography (Sahitya Akademi, 2011)
* Sara Aboobacker, a Critical Insider Who Challenged Gender Hegemony and Oppression (The Wire, 2023)
* The Brahmanisation of Textbooks in Karnataka (Round Table India, 2022)
* Selected Writings by Sara Aboobacker (The Library of Congress)
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this International Women’s Day special episode, MBM’s Mariyam Haider is in conversation with the team at LedBy Foundation - India's first leadership incubator that focuses on the professional development of Muslim women.
Deepanjali Lahiri is the Chief Operating Officer and Fatema Chiba is the Program Manager at LedBy, which has been running training, mentoring programmes and fellowships to support young Muslim women in India enter entrepreneurial and corporate workspaces.
In this episode, Deepanjali and Fatema talk about their personal and professional experiences that have shaped their understanding of the challenges that Muslim women face.
Fatema highlights what growing up as the only Muslim student felt like and how working with an educational non-profit enabled a closer understanding of the way gender, caste and class barriers impact students’ aspirations and professional outlooks.
Deepanjali shares how she had not hired a single Muslim woman candidate in her years of working across IT, retail, and FMCG sectors and the differences between multinationals and Indian companies when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion.
We also discuss the current state of Muslim women participation within India’s formal and informal sectors, the challenges that structural inequities impose on women and how diverse are the career needs and visions for Muslim women in urban versus rural parts.
This MBM episode also offers a glimpse of the long journey that Indian workplaces have to make towards religious diversity, inclusion and representation across all levels of management and leadership. Finally, we talk about Seattle becoming the first American city to add caste to its anti-discrimination laws and if there is hope for similar changes within Indian workspaces in the coming times.
Notes related to the conversation
The Hiring Bias Study conducted by LedBy Foundation assessed Muslim women employment in entry-level positions. Main findings as reported in the study:
* ‘The net discrimination rate was 47.1%, as the Hindu woman profile (Priyanka Sharma) received 208 positive responses, while the Muslim woman profile (Habiba Ali) received half of that (103). This was evident across industries.
* Recruiters were more cordial to the Hindu candidate; 41.3% of the recruiters had connected with Priyanka over phone calls, while only 12.6% spoke with Habiba over a call.
* North India had a lower discrimination rate (40%) compared to jobs located in West (59%) and South India (60%).’
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In this episode, Main Bhi Muslim’s producer and host, Mariyam Haider, speaks with journalist, playwright and award-winning author, Annie Zaidi. Annie has written several books including: City of Incident; Prelude to a Riot; and Bread, Cement, Cactus: A Memoir of Belonging and Dislocation. She is also the editor of Unbound: 2000 Years of Indian Women's Writing.
In this episode, we discuss Bread, Cement, Cactus which is her journey to answering questions around her identity and belonging to her home country, the name she carries and the life she has lived. She investigates the vestiges of memories that have shaped her life in India, the homes she’s lived in, her relationships with certain family members, friends and those she interacted with and observed over the course of living with this question. She makes acute observations about how the Indian state influences who belongs where depending on their status and location in the society. Chapter by chapter, Annie invokes the idea of belonging, displacement, migration and movement not just for herself, but millions of Indians, especially those on the margins or living as minorities.
Bread, Cement, Cactus is a formidable read and asks deeper questions with eloquence, leading to some answers for the readers themselves.
Episode Notes
* Selected books written by Annie Zaidi
* Bread, Cement, Cactus: A memoir of belonging and dislocation
* Prelude To A Riot
* City of Incident: A Novel in Twelve Parts
* Srikrishna Commission
* Annie Zaidi’s Blog
More about Annie Zaidi (republished with permission by the author):
Annie’s other published works include the novella Gulab; a collection of short stories Love Stories # 1 to 14; and a collection of essays Known Turf: Bantering with Bandits and Other True Tales. She is the co-author of The Good Indian Girl (with Smriti Ravindra) and a short book of illustrated poems Crush (with Gynelle Alves).
Annie received the Tata Literature Live Award for fiction (2020) for Prelude to a Riot, which was also shortlisted for the JCB prize the same year, and the Nine Dots Prize (2019) for her essay Bread, Cement, Cactus. She won The Hindu Playwright Award (2018) for her script Untitled 1 and her radio script ‘Jam’ was named regional (South Asia) winner for the BBC’s International Playwriting Competition (2011). Her work has appeared in several anthologies and literary journals including The Griffith Review, The Aleph Review, The Massachusetts Review, The Charles River Journal, The Missing Slate and Out of Print. She has also written and directed several short films and the documentary film, In her words: The journey of Indian women.
Visual identity design by Sunakshi Nigam || Music by Jupneet Singh
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This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this episode, Main Bhi Muslim’s producer and host, Mariyam Haider, speaks with Dr Ghazala Jamil - Assistant Professor at the Centre for the Study of Law and Governance, Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi.
Dr Ghazala is the author of Accumulation by Segregation (Oxford University Press, 2017) and Muslim Women Speak (Sage-Yoda Press, 2018). Her latest book titled - Women in Social Change: Visions, Struggles and Persisting Concerns - is an edited volume on women's rights in India (Sage, 2021).
This MBM conversation focuses on Muslim feminism in India and explore its history, evolution and the ways in which it is bolstering mainstream feminist discourse. Her political approach towards this subject has incorporated contemporary realities faced by Indian Muslim women including communalism, caste politics, patriarchy, Hindu-Muslim relationship, and the anti-Muslim violence in post-Independent India.
Through her own research, experiences and scholarly investigation, Ghazala has contributed towards a deeper understanding of “what it means to be a Muslim woman and a feminist.”
Selected episode references:
Books by Dr Ghazala Jamil
* Muslim Women Speak: Of Dreams and Shackles
* Accumulation by Segregation: Muslim Localities in Delhi
* Women in Social Change: Visions, Struggles and Persisting Concerns: 4 (Social Change in Contemporary India)
Sylvia Vatuk
* Islamic Feminism in India: Indian Muslim Women Activists and the Reform of Muslim Personal Law
Nida Kirmani
* Claiming Their Space: Muslim Women-led Networks and the Women's Movement in India
Nadja-Christina Schneider
* Islamic Feminism and Muslim Women’s Rights Activism in India: From Transnational Discourse to Local Movement - or Vice Versa?
Sachar Committee Report
With warmth and gratitude,
Mariyam
Episode poster art by Sunakshi Nigam
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In this episode, Main Bhi Muslim’s producer and host, Mariyam Haider, speaks with Dr Tahera Shaikh, Pune-based researcher and author who has spent a key part of her research life documenting the lives and contributions of Savitribai Phule and Fatima Sheikh, 19th century India’s social and educational reformers.
In this episode, Dr Tahera shares her findings and understanding of Fatima Sheikh’s role in contributing towards Savitribai and Jyotirao Phule’s causes, while at the same time, breaking down prejudices that plagued the then Muslim and larger Indian community. We discuss their comradeship, its uniqueness within the pantheon of India’s social reformers, and how their approaches towards making education accessible across all segments of the society should continue to be adopted within modern India’s schooling.
This interview has been edited for clarity. English transcript below:
Mariyam Haider, Host: Hello Dr Tahera Shaikh. Thank you for joining us at Main Bhi Muslim’s podcast. Thank you for sparing time to talk about a great personality. I welcome you to Main Bhi Muslim.
Tahera Shaikh, Guest: Thank you Mariyam Haider. Thank you for having me on the program and giving me an opportunity to share my thoughts. Thank you.
Mariyam: Dr. Tahera, first tell us something about yourself. Share with us as to how you developed interest in the life of Fatima Sheikh. How did you study Fatima Sheikh and how did you conduct your research to write on her?
Shaikh: My name is Shaikh Tahera Abdushakur. I live in Pune. My father Abdusshakur is from Usmanabad. My mother Maimuna Begam comes from Karnataka (Banglore). My paternal grandfather was a farmer. My maternal grandfather was Hafiz and Alim. My father is a businessman. He is not much educated. He is matriculate only. But my maternal family was an educated family. My Khalu was an Alim and he has authored books also. Hence, I have been interested in education since my childhood. In Pune, first I started teaching in a school situated in Mominpura. In that school, once a decision was taken to name the newly built hall after Fatima Bi. Before that I had not heard the name of Fatima Bi at all. Thereafter, I started reading about her. Although I had read a few articles about Savitribai Phule, I knew nothing about her (Fatima Shaikh). When we celebrate the birth and death anniversaries of great personalities, we require gathering basic facts about them (to educate the students). Therefore, when we searched material on Savitribai Phule we could only find a few articles. We could not find any book. Then, we (I and my friend Nasrin Ramzan; we had jointly authored two books earlier) decided that we would work on this topic. Since I am settled in Pune, therefore I have studied Marathi till Class X. So, I did not face any difficulty in reading Marathi and Hindi books. Thus, I first began collecting materials. I visited libraries or any other place I knew I could get something from. I stored them on my laptop and then started working on it. I thought I would first write a book about her personal and social life etc. I was of the view that people should know what she had done for our society. You won’t believe that at first I had decided to write just a piece of article on her of not more than 10 pages. But eventually I ended up writing 150 pages. Therefore, I decided to publish this in the form of a book.
Meanwhile, my friend Nasrin decided to work on “Kavyaphule” of Savitribai Phule [collection of poems written by Savitribai Phule, published in 1854]. Thus, I continued my work. And, the book was published on 3rd January, 2015. I had deliberately chosen 3rd January to release the book, because it happens to be the birthday of Savitribai Phule. A hall named after Savitribai Phule was built in Pune. I released the book in that hall only. Thus, a book—a kind of biography—on her came in the public domain. On the other hand, the work on Fatima Shaikh, also began especially. You won’t believe, I visited every nook and corner in Pune to meet elderly persons who had any knowledge vis-à-vis Fatima Shaikh. But I hardly got anything in writing i.e. any evidence which can be used as reference in the book, because readers would rely on whatever I would write as there was no book on her prior to this one. Therefore, I was very concerned and particular about it while adding things. Unlike Fatima Shaikh, there are plenty of materials and books available on Savitribai Phule and we know basic things about her— for instance when was she born; when did she get married, when did she come to Pune, when did she start her study and when did she start imparting education to children.
But on Fatima Sheikh, very little things were available. Therefore, keeping in view the fact that whatever I would write the same would be used as a reference by the readers, I decided to write only after extensive research and examination. For two to three years, I continued collecting materials and studying them. And, in the meantime, I developed an interest in the idea that people should and must know about a Muslim lady who accompanied Savitribai Phule. As people say had there not been Munshi Ghaffar Baig there would not have been Jyotiba Phule or he would not have been a Mahatma. Thus, Alhamdulillah, finally I succeeded in publishing a book. I was happy eventually. Then, everyone (including writers of Marathi, English and Kannada), started reading it and using reference. Thus, I have had interest in writing articles and books since childhood. First of all, I had written and published a book in 2007. It was a collection of short stories for children. Then, I also wrote a novel, stories for children, short stories etc. I also visited the village of Savitribai Phule . I heard that Savitribai Phule and Fatima Bi had gone to Ahmad Nagar for Teachers’ Training. There I tried to find out some facts in the old registers etc. so as to get facts vis-à-vis date of birth etc. But I did not find any old material or solid evidence. What Savitribai has written about her in the book has only travelled forward. In addition to that, she has mentioned about her several times.
For example, in some programme she (Savitribai) has mentioned that Fatima is with me right now. Likewise, somewhere she has mentioned that she has come to her paternal home in Naya Gaon and she is not worried about Pune because Fatima is there. Thus, it appears that she (Fatima Shaikh) used to be with her (Savitribai Phule) continuously and both worked together.
Mariyam: In reference to what you were mentioning about your visits to different places for your research, I would like to know from you that what is the biggest challenge we have in the 21st century vis-à-vis girl education in comparison to the challenges Fatima Sheikh and Savitribai Phule would have faced during their movement in the 19th century for educating girls and to establish schools for them?
Shaikh: In those times also girls used to get education. Savitribai Phule was born in 1830. But in that time, colleges and universities had been established in Northern India. Girls were also getting education. And, in other countries too (if we see in reference to Muslims), colleges and universities had been established in big cities and towns and girls were receiving education. In Pune too, in 1820, English had established schools; a Marathi school had also been established. But what is significant is that these schools were very costly. Poor people were not capable of affording the fees of such schools. Only rich children were going to such schools. Savitribai Phule came from a weaker section of the society and this was also the reason why she realized the fact that education was accessible only for the rich. She realized the fact that as to how people who had to struggle for every day’s meal would afford such a costly education; therefore she thought that such schools should be established for them wherein children can receive education free of cost.
As I discussed earlier, Jyotiba had received education from an English school and when his wife also showed interest in getting education he got her admitted in school. But, when his wife stepped out to teach, his father got angry and ultimately he expelled them from his house. But no one gave shelter to them in the society. No one in the society had the courage to head on the society or fight against the value system of that time. At such a crucial time, his friend Usman Sheikh showed courage and let them stay in his house. Usman Sheikh’s Sister Fatima Sheikh also supported him (Jyotiba Phule) like her brother wholeheartedly and allowed the Phule couple to stay with them. The Phule couple had been expelled from their home empty-handed. Therefore, we can imagine the amount of help they would have needed. However, after some time, Jyotiba told them he would not sit idly; he said he wanted to establish schools. Usman Sheikh extended his help to Phule immediately. To begin with, he donated his own land [bada] to establish a school. Not only that, several other Muslims also donated their lands (at that time Muslim constituted six per cent of Pune’s population) for establishing schools. Those schools exist even today. At that time, first schools were established for adult education. Interestingly, within a span of two years only, more than twenty schools were established. Even English were not so fast; nor the Marathi society of that time. They had limited resources in terms of money as well as teachers. Thus, Savitribai and Fatima Sheikh began their work. They also taught children free of cost because Joytiba Phule had no money to pay.
Here the role of Fatima Bi is worth discussing. She stood for a society and a community she did not belong to. The family/society Fatima Bi belonged to was not averse to education. If I may say so, in the family of Muslims, education for girls was allowed since beginning i.e. since the birth of Prophet Muhammad. Rather, receiving education was mandatory for all—male as well female. Hence, Fatima Sheikh herself was educated. However, since Savitribai Phule had stepped out of her home and had decided to fight against the society for the sake of people who were downtrodden and in consequence to which people were upset with her (Savitribai), therefore she (Fatima Sheikh) extended her solidarity to her friend Savitribai Phule wholeheartedly. And, she also stepped out of her home, along with Savitribai Phule, to teach the children who belonged to weaker sections of the society.
Mariyam: Had Fatima Sheikh and her brother faced any kind of challenge within their own society i.e. Muslim community in that point of time when they decided to extend their support to Savitribai Phule?
Shaikh: It was the end of the 19th century. We know that it was the period of political turmoil. Some people were against Britishers. However, there were also many great leaders—like Jyotiba and others—who were influenced by English education. They were also getting benefit from this. Also, this very education made them prudent enough and they could think of getting freedom. Thus, the new education was impacting people. At that time, it was certainly a matter of concern amongst the Muslim community that why they (Sheikh brother and sister) were heading on with the society for others; why they were making enemies for the sake of others. But what is significant to note is that their friendship (between Sheikh brother and sister and Phule couple) was very strong. They (Sheikh brother and sister) considered what Phule couple was doing a pious work and therefore they saw no reason not to help them. Hence, they showed courage at that time and stood by them openly. No doubt, people harassed them several times. People even pelted stones at them and hurled abuses. But, they did not give up. And, many schools were opened one after another. Within two years, a chain of 20 to 25 schools came into being in Pune/Maharashtra.
Then, people also developed interest in sending their girls for education. People also came forward because these schools gave education to girls in lieu of a meager fee. They (Phule couple) visited the households and persuaded them (people) to educate their girls. Further, at that time, people would not assemble easily. Hence, they (Phule couple) used to gather them in the name of one or another religious and social programme and in such programmes they used to lecture them (people) about education. They used to tell them (people) the benefit of education. They would convince them as to how education would make them wise and free them from slavery. In all these, Fatima Sheikh supported them (Phule couple) wholeheartedly. Now, the question arises as to why Fatima Sheikh did not get as much popularity as she should have? In this regard, I believe it was not an extraordinary thing at that time for a Muslim woman to receive education or teaching others. If we see across India or even outside India, people were receiving education at that time; especially those who belonged to a well off family.
Fatima Sheikh also belonged to a well off family. Her family was financially sound and it can be inferred from the fact that her family donated land to Savitribai for establishing school. On the other hand, for Savitribai it became a significant thing because she established schools for the section of society which was neglected. Nobody cared for them. We have read in history that in olden times untouchability was very prevalent. So, at that point of time when people were not even ready to let untouchables sit or stand beside them or touch their water and food, it was indeed very brave of Savitribai to work for them, sit with them and even take pains for them. And, in all these, Fatima Sheikh supported her. Jyotiba was also impressed with the fact that there was no idea of untouchability amongst English/Christians and Muslims. Phule couple saw that no discrimination was being practiced in their religions. Muslim men as well women were allowed to perform Namaz. Likewise, Christian men as well as women were allowed to visit Church. The Phule couple was very perturbed with the fact that as to why so much of evils were prevalent amongst their people (religion)?Therefore, they worked tirelessly. They would visit every household and convince people to bring in change. They would persuade them to work for the freedom of future generations.
Mariyam: How did Savitribai and Fatima Sheikh play a role in enhancing the status of 19th century women further in terms of giving representation to them i.e. apart from teachers, women can be social leaders and social activists too?
Shaikh: They thought only education was not enough for women. They thought other things had to be taken into consideration as well if women had to be in the front row of every field of life and if they had to be made capable to stand as equals in the society. For example, in those times, widow remarriage was considered to be an evil. People were totally against it. But, they started working on it. Thus, Savitribai started all such works for which the entire society stood against her. She observed the practices of other religions i.e. Islam and Christianity. She saw widow remarriage was not considered an evil practice amongst Muslims and Christians. This perturbed her. This made her angry as to why only women in her community were subjected to such atrocities? She was very pained to see widow ladies living their lives in solitary as untouchables. Hence, she headed the society on all fronts. She did all those works which were against the value system of society at that point in time. She felicitated the remarriage of widow ladies. She opened Asharam for orphaned children. She also arranged things for nurturing the abandoned or children born out of wedlock. Along with schools, she also opened hostels for the children who used to come from remote areas. She also worked for farmers and labourers. In fact, she hardly left any field. She worked for everything and everyone.
However, she was obviously an advocate for women empowerment. She believed women should and must come forward in every field. She also firmly believed that people would certainly keep suppressing everyone or anyone (or any society) who is a coward. She was of the view that people should gather courage to speak the truth. People should stand against repression. She believed the atrocity will not stop until and unless we stand against it firmly and speak against it loudly because bearing with the atrocity is tantamount to committing atrocity.
Mariyam: In reference to Savitribai inspiring and motivating the society of that time i.e. people should stand for each other and stand for the weaker sections of the society (be it a man or a woman, be it an orphaned child or any other oppressed individual), my question to you is that what do you mean by the society? Is it the society of Pune or a society of a particular category?
Shaikh: Different communities were living there. It consisted of the poor as well as the rich. Upper caste people like Marathas were rich and they were receiving education. But labour class people were the ones who were in miserable condition. They were not capable of sending their children to schools. And, the reason was simple. They did not have money to pay the expenses of education. Hence, they (Phule couple) told them about the significance of education. They told them if they wanted to get something they would have to work hard; they would have to receive education. Only education would make them prudent.
And only after becoming prudent , they would be able to know their rights and thereafter fight for the same. . For example, in our society, most of the women do not know what their rights are. Hence, you would not be able to fight for them until and unless you are aware of your rights. So they convinced people that they should speak up for their rights; they should fight for their rights.
Mariyam: You mentioned that in the society Fatima Sheikh belonged to (Muslim community), girls receiving education was not an unusual phenomenon at that time and perhaps this is why you did not find enough materials on her life. Now, as you know girl education in Muslim societies are being hampered, especially in places like Karnataka in the name of hijab controversy, likewise Taliban (in Afghanistan) have started a new kind of movement under which they are not allowing girls to receive education after a certain age. What do you think about it? We are talking about a personality in whose times girl education was a common thing, and today, despite the fact that everyone is aware of the significance of education, the same is being prohibited for girls.
Shaikh: We have given up valuing what is important and what is right for us. We know that our girls have to receive education. On one hand we want our girls to be doctors, engineers and teachers; however, on the other hand, we forget that for the same, girls are required to be given freedom to pursue education. Once God as well as the society has given them the right (for example, Savitribai got the rights of girls approved at societal level) to pursue their education, then who are these people to obstruct them from receiving education? Issues like hijab are purely political stunts. These things cannot embargo the education. From my own experience I can tell you that I have done all my courses—M.A.,M.Ed., B.Ed., NET, PhD—in hijab. There was no ban on hijab in Pune College and Pune University. There was an educational environment at my home too. I had been wearing a hijab since the beginning. I did like it too. And, I did not face any difficulty anywhere.
The present hijab controversy is entirely political one. It has been hyped in the media unnecessarily. I believe hijab can never be an impediment in receiving education. If we come to see the pictures of great ladies from our past like Fatima Sheikh, Savitribai, Shivaji Maharaj’s mother Jija Bai (although there are very few photos of them)—you will see all of them with aanchal over their heads. In other words, the imagery of Indian women with aanchal over their heads embodies dignity and righteousness. It is distinct. It is of Indianness. It is part of Indian society. And, aforesaid all women were educated.
For Savitribai, I think she had a habit of writing things. Perhaps Fatima Bi did not have this habit. Savitribai Phule used to write a diary as well. Her speeches are found in her writings too. Her letters have also been published. In the research which is going on for years, we hope something will certainly be found out. For instance, the school where I teach is 130 years old and we are planning to see the old registers, because at that time both of them—Savitribai and Fatima Sheikh—were alive. So, one thing we have understood that Savitribai used to write things. Hence, from her “kavyaphule” [collection of poetry], speeches, letters and diary, we have got to know various things.
Mariyam: When I was in school and when I read about educational revolution in 19th and 20th century, two names were prominently taught, one is of course Raja Ram Mohan Roy (who is credited for abolishing the Sati Pratha), and another is Sir Syed Ahmad Khan from North India. So, later on, when I started reading about Fatima Shaikh, a significant question arose in my mind that as to why we were not taught about Fatima Sheikh and Savitribai Phule in our schools, because when we read about inspirational figures like them and for the fact that they are women, we as girls get a different kind of encouragement and confidence. So as you said your work has been published in Marathi, Kannada as well as Urdu, I wanted to know whether you have written in Hindi or English too?
Shaikh: No, no. My works have not been published in Kannada. Kannada writers have given the reference of my book in their own works on Savitribai and Fatima Bi. They contacted me and conveyed it to me. I have also written in Urdu and English. I myself have translated my book in Urdu ‘Qayamat Se Pehle Alamat-e Qyamat’ into English. Another book of mine in Urdu is titled ‘Soorah Al-Baqrah’. I have translated this too in English as well as Hindi.
Mariyam: I have two more questions for you. Then, I think we will wind up the interview. First, had Savitribai and Fatima Sheikh been alive today, what would they have thought about our society? How do you visualize?
Shaikh: See, they talked about three issues of the society cumulatively—social, economic and educational conditions. They also worked to implement their ideas in the society. Had they been alive today, first they would have pained to see the absence of unity which was prevalent in their times. They would have pained to see the division which is prevalent in our society at present. We know that for Jyotiba Phule, his father hired a Persian teacher to learn Persian. Likewise, a teacher was also hired to teach English. So, during that time, hatred was not rampant. People used to accept each other. People used to read the teachings of each other’s [religion]. Like many Hindus read Urdu, Muslim studied Hindi, English as well as Marathi. So, hatred was very rare in the society. People used to work together. And, the duo of Fatima Sheikh and Savitribai is an exemplary figure for unity. We know that our Indian culture is in fact a composite culture. My PhD topic is also on this very subject i.e. national integration spanning the period of 1947 to 2000.
So, in our composite culture, there are many people, other than Savitribai and Fatima Bi, who have worked together. To bring in reform in the society, many efforts were being made by many enthusiasts. Social reformers were motivating people to get educated and revolt against British imperialism. For example, Raja Ram Mohan Roy, Jyotiba Phule and many such personalities got English education and then they taught people to unite and stand against English imperialism as well as the Jagirdars and Nawabs of our own society who were committing atrocities on us. In a way, they were running a movement to awaken people. Likewise, Savitribai and Fatima Bi worked for education. They also worked for improving economic conditions of the people. They motivated people to work hard and get out of poverty. They started many vocational institutes as well, especially for women. Hence, they worked on many issues and ran many movements.
Important thing is that Savitribai used to write what she would do; and therefore many things are available in writing with regard to her works. And, as she has mentioned about Fatima Bi several times, we also know about her. But, the unfortunate thing is that Fatima Bi herself did not write about herself and her works. However, the question arises as to why no one else wrote about her? There was some Urdu magazine which was started for the first time in Pune in the year 1900. This too did not write anything on her. In that way, we would have something in writing as evidence for future generations. We are getting things to know from word of mouth; not many things are in the form of concrete evidence unlike Savitribai about whom many basic things are available in writing.
Since Fatima Bi used to be with Savitribai continuously, therefore people are guessing many things about her—like age, date of birth etc. About these duo women, the most important thing is that they were India’s first trained teachers. There was a Teacher’s Training College in Pune. Jyotiba had got Savitribai enrolled in that college and later on, these women had also gone to Ahmad Nagar. It was a big step to go to a different city for education in those times. And Savitribai’s husband supported her wholeheartedly.
Mariyam: Since you yourself are an educator, I want to know from you that how would have they (Fatima Shaikh and Savitribai) as educators motivated girls for receiving education? Although you have mentioned that the expensive fee was a big issue at that time for the parents, but how would have they inspired girls and given them a new perspective on life that was not limited to four walls of their homes and that their destiny would change dramatically through education?
Shaikh: Be it girl or boy, the best thing at that time was that they had prepared a fantastic syllabus. We know that a similar syllabus is prepared for all the schools—whether they are situated in cities or villages. So was the case at that time too. But they prepared different syllabus for schools situated in remote areas and villages. Likewise, they prepared different syllabus for the schools situated in cities. For instance, for students belonging to remote villages, things were taught keeping in view their exposure.
In other words, for example, teaching them about airplanes or trains which they had not seen ever (unlike the children of cities) was not considered feasible for them; and it was held that children may not be able to understand things through such a model of teaching. So, children were taught with examples of things from their own life and milieu which they could relate to. It was done in order to bring them at par with the students belonging to cities who had exposure to various things. So, it was a great idea to make syllabus from this point of view. It is also significant to note that they were not as big scholar as Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, as you just mentioned, or celebrated teachers and professors of big colleges and universities.
Mariyam: Do we have access to such syllabus? Do we know as to how they developed it? Or do we have any copy of such syllabus?
Shaikh: I have appended a sample of such syllabus in my book. Their first school was established in 1848 and by 1852 they had succeeded in opening more than 25 schools. So it was indeed a great achievement to establish so many schools in such a short span of time. They prepared the syllabus from various points of view. First, they considered age, understanding ability and atmosphere the child is living in. They were of the view that while teaching children; these factors must be kept in mind. Likewise, another factor which they considered while making syllabus is that there should be different syllabuses for students belonging to villages and cities because their understating abilities differ from each other in view of their surroundings and ambiances.
Students understand things in consonance with their society and milieu. Also, as we know usually a class consists of different kinds of students in terms of understanding aptitude, therefore another significant thing which was proposed was that a teacher should not drive all the students with one steering. They believed lecturing a class of about 70 children, for example, cannot guarantee that every student would understand what the teacher has taught. They thought that different groups of students—having different levels of understanding ability—should be formed and then they should be taught differently in order to make all of them at par eventually. Hence, such an approach vis-à-vis the syllabus and method of teaching adhered and advocated by Savitribai and Fatima Sheikh, is not only unique but also worth learning.
Mariyam: In this connection, I would rather like to say that in the 21st century we are far behind the educational standard of Savitribai and Fatima Sheikh (of 19th century) and their implementation of the same. Many more questions are developing in my mind as you are describing things further. However, because of paucity of time, we will have to wrap up. Thank you Dr Shaikh for taking out time. I really appreciate your works and efforts. You are amongst very few scholars who are spending their energies in documenting the lives and works of great personalities like Savitribai and Fatima Sheikh. You are in fact inspiring many people like us to read our female leaders and learn from them, and also work on bringing in change in the society while espousing their teachings.
Shaikh: It is to be noted that there is a dearth of people—no matter how educated and great they are—who come forward with courage and talk about the change which needs to be brought. So, Savitribai and Fatima Bi were of the view that people—men as well as women—must and should gather courage to fight for their rights. Anyways, yes, I succeeded in publishing books on them. Thank you for those encouraging words. I was keenly interested in documenting their lives and works. God also gave me strength. People also appreciated my effort. And, eventually, Maharashtra Academy and Uttar Pradesh Academy also awarded me.
Shaikh: Thank you Mariyam, thank you so much for inviting me and giving me the opportunity to share my thoughts.
Transcription done by Syed Kashif.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this episode, Main Bhi Muslim’s producer and host, Mariyam Haider, speaks to Sameera Khan, Mumbai-based, independent journalist, researcher and co-author of the critically acclaimed ‘Why Loiter - Women & Risk on Mumbai Streets'.
Over the years, Sameera has been a media trainer, guiding journalists on how to cover violence against women, particularly rape. She won the National Laadli Media Award for Gender Sensitivity 2020 for her consistent engagement as a teacher, trainer, researcher and a journalist in promoting sensitive reporting on gender-based violence.
This episode comes in light of the ongoing Karnataka hijab issue, where hijab-wearing young Muslim women are being prohibited from entering certain pre-university colleges and educational institutions. At the time of this podcast recording, the state’s high court had reserved its judgement on the ongoing case.
In the podcast, Sameera shares her journey growing up in Mumbai and how it has shaped her identity as an Indian and a Muslim. Sameera and her family witnessed the 1992-93 Bombay riots that dramatically changed her relationship with the city. After that, Sameera began channelling some of her time and efforts towards researching Mumbai’s diverse Muslim community, their stories and histories with the city, along with her gender-based reportage.
This conversation goes beyond Muslim women’s access to public spaces, and touches upon the need to confront patriarchal constraints that women face in private and public spaces.
Sameera makes an important note during our conversation, “Women negotiate the public in different ways…They are constantly producing this safety and producing accessibility for them, in the absence of state structures and institutions not providing it for them.”
Her central opinion on the Karnataka hijab issue is the need for diverse, inclusive classrooms that enhance women’s access to education in the country. She has also written a piece for Scroll on this issue.
In her effervescent voice, Sameera points out to Muskan Khan (student at PES College of Arts, Science and Commerce in Mandya) in the video where she stands up to a group of saffron-clad men heckling her for wearing hijab. “She is driving her two-wheeler, has a hijab…She is mobile. She is on her own vehicle. She has come by herself to college, nobody has dropped her…and yet…all you can see is the scarf on her?”, Sameera emphasises.
Finally, we discuss the idea of women claiming public spaces for fun, joy and simply to be themselves. This conversation is timely and offers a nuanced understanding of Muslim women transforming the mainstream discourse around identity politics (with or without the hijab) in India. Do give it a listen.
PS: There’s a superb Alia Bhatt reference towards the end of the conversation, for listeners :)
With warmth and gratitude,
Mariyam
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this episode, Main Bhi Muslim’s producer and host, Mariyam Haider, spoke to Nazni Rizvi, Senior Reporter at Khabar Lahariya, India’s only, all-women, feminist, hyper-local, video first news channel, reporting from within the country’s hinterland.
In this conversation, Nazni shares her story of belonging to the Muslim community in rural India where she fought social and religious prescriptions to leave an incompatible marriage, join Khabar Lahariya, train as a journalist, and over the years, cover some of the most pertinent issues including women’s rights and equality, social justice, and organised crime, in Bundelkhand region.
Nazni’s reportage and her personal story deeply showcase the prejudices that women often face for making alternative life choices, not just from outside their social communities, but also from within, and how she has tackled them over the years. Her story also speaks for countless other Indian Muslim women who often live with community-prescribed gender and patriarchal expectations, failing to meet which can often lead them to become pariahs.
This interview was conducted in Hindi and has been edited for clarity, but you can find the English transcript below.
Transcript
Mariyam Haider, Host - Thank you Nazni for joining us today at Main Bhi Muslim’s podcast episode. I’ve been really excited to reach out to you and share your story through Main Bhi Muslim ever since I learnt about you. I want to deeply thank you for the kind of reporting that you've been doing through the years, especially on agendas that people do not wish to hear about and about topics that they are not open to understanding. It really motivates me, the kind of work you do, it's all a lesson for us. It teaches us about the kind of reporting that is essential and important today, and how we can express ourselves through our writing.
Nazni Rizvi - “Mariyam, thanks to you as well because being a journalist our job is to bring out stories of other people, but sometimes even we wish to be heard, and that people get to know our story too. I’ve gotten my chance to be heard through this podcast at MBM, and I’m going to use this opportunity to open up and talk about the things that I go through, that often happen with me so that people realise that as journalists, we also go through a lot and have a story to tell.”
Mariyam - First of all Nazni, let's start with your introduction. How did you start working with Khabar Lahariya, and what prior incidents of your life led you to Khabar Lahariya, which eventually turned tables for you & gave your life a new beginning?
Nazni Rizvi “My name is Nazni. I am currently working as a senior reporter. My journey with Khabar Lahariya began in 2007. At that time, I was in a bad financial state. I had 5 little children. The notion of belonging to a muslim family, and having to remain under the veil, kept me restricted. And to top it, I was also a woman. A muslim woman. There were a lot of difficulties. My condition was really bad and working outside was tough. My family was going through a tough phase. I was in desperate need of work. Because I have had formal education only till Grade VIII, I had never pictured myself as a journalist. I was ready for all odd jobs, and cleaning chores, daily wage-labour, or a petty job at any shop; anything but never a journalist.
So, therewas this teacher who’d come to teach my landlord’s kids Arabic. She informed me about an office at (Babu Lal Chauraha in Banda district ) that provided work to women, and was hopeful I too could get some work there. The lack of a basic educational background and no previous experience made me skeptical, but I gathered courage and went there from where I was directed to the Vanagna office. Because Khabar Lahariya had just recently launched, it wasn’t very well known. When I reached the Vanagna office, Anita didi there informed me that because I was neither a graduate nor did I have any kind of prior work experience, there wasn’t any work for me. She suggested I go to the nearby Khabar Lahariya office which had just begun functioning.
She told me that Khabar Lahariya was training girls and women to be journalists. Even though I doubted I could do journalism, I mustered strength and went forward. Upon reaching the location after asking various people on the way, I saw two women - Kavita didi and Meera didi - my now Editor, walking in the scorching heat under an umbrella.
I asked them if there was an office named Khabar Lahariya around there. One of them answered by asking me what work I had at the office, with a smile. I told them that I was looking for work. Hesitantly, they guided me upstairs. I thought they were leading me towards the office, turned out they were the office heads and unlocked the office welcoming me inside. They sat me down, asked about me, and told me about Khabar Lahariya. Then she asked me to write an application, and informed me that they weren’t recruiting yet, but would get back to me once they started hiring.
However, I told them that I was in desperate need of work because I had little kids to look after and was jobless. Two of my little girls had gone with me, one was still in my lap. When they understood that I really really needed a job, after learning about my financial condition, about my maiden family and my in-laws being unsupportive, Kavita didi asked if I could sell newspapers. She offered me to sell newspapers, keep its commission and deposit the sale proceeds at the office. She also assured me that they’d consider me for future recruitments.
I did not think less of myself as a newspaper seller, it did not bother me. I just picked up the newspapers and that day onwards, I started selling newspapers. 2-3 months from then, recruitment started, and I applied. We had to undergo a 15 days’ training programme. Out of the 35-36 females there, only 3 finally got selected, and I was one of them. From there on in 2007, I have been associated with Khabar Lahariya.
Mariyam - Nazni, you’ve said a lot in your introduction itself. You’ve not only told us about your motive behind joining Khabar Lahariya, but also about your circumstances that guided you towards joining Khabar Lahariya.
When we read your stories, we see that they cover many aspects other than just on-ground reporting. They also consider the domestic side of the women’s story, that within their homes what are the women expected to do and how they fulfill their duty in society. But your story has been different. Like you said, you were in Moradabad after marriage and you were looking after your house and family, while you received no support from anybody. So when you are reporting now and you ask women about their perspective on life within their houses, do you see any changes where women see a possibility in having a life even outside their homes; do they get motivated watching you/ listening to your story?
Nazni Rizvi - “Yes, there has been change, but a lot is yet to change. Some women go out to work, their husbands and in-laws support them, but there are still a lot of women who may have the freedom to go out to work but still have to come back to look after their households and families. Men are dominantly present in the journalists’ circle. So when I meet people sometimes, they tell me that some fellow journalist brother told them about me and that I also travel to far off places, and some women take inspiration from these talks. It feels nice. Sometimes women do not want to move far from their places for training, but when they are told about me, these women agree to go for training programmes.”
Mariyam - So how do you explain to people the concept of feminism? How do you tell women about their rights and their status of equality in society?
Nazni Rizvi - “People talk about Islam and sharia each time we mention equality of women and men, but sharia also holds them equal. People don’t believe in it. The law, the Constitution, both hold men and women as equal. It is on paper, and people merely talk about it; there’s hardly any acceptance of equality. Each time I talk about feminism, people think that I am against men, I am talking ill about the masculine gender, and that I only favor females / women. Then I have to explain to them in detail that I have nothing against them, and that feminism only demands overall equality of men and women in all aspects, that women too should be allowed to wear and eat and do as it pleases them. Sometimes they understand, other times they argue.”
Mariyam - From the videos that I have seen of you, you run two amazing programs with Khabar Lahariya, and in one of them I heard your slogan ‘bolenge, bulwayenge, hans kar sab keh jayenge’. I love this slogan because it leaves no scope for argument. In that program, you question people, they answer, based on which you question again. There’s a video in which you are talking about patriarchy and there's a young boy who said that ours has always been a patriarchal country considering all children are named after their fathers. While talking about paternal and maternal names, you mentioned that Kareena Kapoor has changed her name and talked about other renowned people that most of us know.
Mariyam - During that talk, at some point the same boy said that now things are changing as they must, and there’s no issue with women naming their children after themselves, they should if it pleases them. In that conversation of about 3-4 minutes, I felt as though the light talk changed at least one person’s perspective. So, do you think that we can change people’s mindset on such topics by bringing serious questions through these light talks?
Nazni Rizvi - “The motive of the show was to allow people to talk out their hearts through funny talks. We wanted them to talk about what's in their hearts themselves. Usually our reports are on serious topics, which is why we kept this talk show funny.”
Mariyam - I’ll now move towards the more serious topics. Some of your reports are based on such topics that people usually do not associate with women journalists. Women are usually thought to report on casual topics such as food and fashion. So can you tell us about some such topics which you reported on and what kind of an experience it was for you?
Nazni Rizvi - “One of my reports is on Sadhna Patel who is a ‘daaku’ (dacoit)’. Chitrakoot region is surrounded by a lot of dacoits and these areas are terrorised by their deeds. Such incidents are often mentioned in many well known newspapers and news channels. I have reported on them and their stories, about how dacoits often torment villagers and the police are troubled a lot by them too.
So when I heard about this female dacoit in Chitrakoot, I had a weird feeling. I felt bad. I kept thinking about what could’ve possibly turned the woman into a dacoit. I accepted that she was a dacoit, doing wrong, but I wanted to know the story of her life, about what made her do so. I wanted to know how she became a dacoit. So when I learnt about the village that she belonged to, first I went alone. After searching here and there, I reached her house and talked to people around her place. Her house was far from the village, in the jungle under a mountain. She lived only with her mother and her uncle. After researching well, I put her story as part of our monthly plan.
The story interested Kavita didi also, and she too decided to come along. We fixed a date, booked an auto (because it was a jungle area). When we got off the auto, the auto driver was so scared. He kept the auto’s engine on all throughout the 2-3 hours that we were inside her house, so we could escape quickly once our work was done. When we entered her house, we met her ‘Mausi’ (mother’s sister) and ‘Mama’ (mother’s brother) who narrated her story to us. We then requested to meet her mother, who herself looked very young, we even thought it could be Sadhna herself, pretending to be her mother in a ‘saree’. We were even wondering what if this is Sadhna, and she pulls out a gun and lodges a few bullets in us? (laughs)
Initially her mother expressed anger, she wouldn’t tell us anything, or show us Sadhna’s photo. But we eventually explained to her that we were there as women, other than just being journalists and we wanted to write a report on Sadhna’s story from a woman's perspective, to understand why she joined the dacoits in the first place. Her mother then narrated to us that Sadhna had fallen in love with somebody who she later married, but was sold by her husband to dacoits for INR 50000. Somehow she came back and would loiter in the jungle. People and relatives saw her but outlawed her.
Due to the lack of support from her family, she ended up being among dacoits again. She came back and this time her mother sent her to live with their relatives. There as well, she was sold to a group of dacoits. She was repeatedly being sold to dacoits, and she couldn’t find a way out. By now, the police too had started troubling her. She then resorted to living in the mountains with the dacoits. We don’t know who did what to her, but there were some who she had beaten up during nights near the village. She wouldn’t beat up everyone. It’s possible she did it because they had harmed her or because they didn’t support her when she rescued herself from the dacoits. There must've been a story behind who she chose to beat up, her stories resonated with that of Phoolan Devi.
We got her real photo, all other media reports gave file photos of her. When we wrote her story and published it, it created a stir amongst the media. They came to us asking for her photo and story. Nobody had talked to anybody from her family, they wrote only what the police told them. Even journalists from Madhya Pradesh called us for her details, but we had a fixed date for publishing our article and we decided to share the details with them after our report had been published.”
Mariyam - So when people called you, they were only asking for Sadhna’s details. It probably tells that nobody really had the courage to go to Sadhna’s place.
Nazni Rizvi -“Nobody went. We even gave them location details, but they all thought that her family wouldn't talk to them, or tell them anything about her. They didn’t try. Getting to know about Sadhna made me feel like people just put women down, instead of trying to know what she was put through and why she turned out to be the way she did.Nobody was interested in really knowing Sadhna’s story and why she became a dacoit.
Mariyam - Within the Muslim community, how do poeple react when they hear about you going to various places and covering the less-talked-about topics in your reports? How do they see it? What have you heard, or what do you think they feel about your decisions?
Nazni Rizvi - “I belong to a Muslim family. I am a “bad” woman among my relatives and those around me because I roam around without a ‘purdah’/veil, I wear a ‘bindi’, I go places, and do not have a man by my side. There is a notion among Muslims that women must move around with a man, even if it is a small boy. I talk to anybody and I don’t hesitate in asking any questions, hence a bad woman. Once I was at my Khala’s (mother’s sister) place, and we were talking about something and I mentioned that there had been a rape somewhere. My Khala got upset that I used a word as rape in the presence of so many men. During my early days, I wouldn’t go out to my relatives, nor would they talk to me. But things are changing slowly. People do meet me now. However, they still expect me to wear a ‘chador’ (large scarf) if not a ‘naqaab’ (veil) during family events.”
Mariyam - Like you said, people in your family, initially did not understand your work and wouldn’t talk to you. But now that you’ve been reporting as a journalist for so many years and have submitted multiple amazing reports, in a manner that a lot of us have so much to learn from you, do you think you’ve now been able to change people’s perspective about you in the Muslim community? On the outside, it often seems very easy, what you do. People think that all you have to do is listen and see and report, but that’s not quite true. How do you gather the courage to report such issues with utmost honesty alongside maintaining a humanitarian approach?
Nazni Rizvi - “Muslims who are not my relatives have been very supportive of me and are happy to see me grow as a journalist. Sitting beside them, I’ve often heard them proudly introduce me as Nazni Ji, saying I’m a journalist, who goes to various places for reporting and has done various amazing coverage. But sometimes I also hear people say that I should either wear a bindi or change my name. But this is completely my choice, I like to wear bindi and so I do. Earlier, when I used to post on Facebook, I’d receive messages and comments from people asking me why I wear a ‘saree’ or ‘bindi’. But isn’t saree too just another piece of clothing? Even if you believe that Allah or Sharia doesn’t allow some things, back in those days, almost nothing existed, not even clothes. Should we all refuse to wear clothes then? These comments call for a lot of debates.”
Mariyam - I can absolutely understand your arguments, because the reason behind me starting Main Bhi Muslim was to primarily present the meaning of Indian Muslimness through mine and other people’s stories. I want to tell people that we, the Muslims of India, live and spend our lives in many different ways. Like you mentioned, you are expected to either wear a bindi or change your name, or how we aren’t supposed to wear a ‘saree’, people even outside the muslim community have a very generalised perception of us as Muslim women. They have a predetermined picture of how we are, and how we are not. So what you said actually represents the foundation of Main Bhi Muslim.
Mariyam - As you said in our previous conversation, there are places where you’d go wearing a ‘bindi’ and may not immediately give your name because that could be in a Hindu colony which may create some problems for you initially, but eventually they learn your name and accept it easily. Nazni Ji, please tell us a little about how you feel about your identity when you go to such places. Have you ever felt like you being a Muslim could be problematic?
Nazni Rizvi - “I usually visit rural areas, backward areas, people are still of a conservative mindset. When I go to a Muslim or Dalit dominated area, introducing myslef to them is easy. But when I go to cover big news or to places where most people belong to the upper castes, like Thakurs, Pandits, and Patels, they immediately ask what caste I belong to. In Bundeli, they will say, “Kaun behni hoo?” Meaning which caste do you belong to?
Seeing me wear a ‘bindi’ and ‘bichiyas’ (ornamental jewellery traditionally worn by married women) sometimes they suggest I should also wear ‘chudis’ and apply ‘sindoor’, assuming I’m a Hindu. But even if I’m wearing a ‘bindi’ and ‘bichiyas’, I still do not introduce myself and disclose my caste immediately. I first talk about random things, ask for some water even if I’m not thirsty and create an atmosphere. But because they are so habitual to knowing castes, they do not talk openly unless they know about one’s caste. I then tell them that I’m a Muslim and explain to them that despite our differences, our blood is the same right. There are only two differences, men and women; you’re a woman and I’m a woman, that’s the community we both belong to. They then talk to me comfortably. Sometimes wearing bindi makes it easier for me, but because I like wearing it, I always do so.”
Mariyam - I must say that your way of winning people’s hearts and creating the atmosphere to talk is so interesting, I really think I should learn it from you. Sometime back you’d told me about a school whose story you’d covered, for which you also received a prize. Could you tell me more about that story?
Nazni Rizvi - “I received a call from a group of trustees / local guardians of the Kendriya Vidyalaya (public school) saying that the dilapidated school building was risky for the students, especially after a cylinder burst in it. It could fall anytime. They had invited many journalists saying they were going to submit a memorandum to the DM. When I went to the school to report the issue, the teachers weren’t ready to talk to me in the absence of the Principal. I asked for the Principal’s number and upon receiving that I spoke to the principal who accepted that even though the building is severely damaged, they are unable to locate another building space for the school and that the guardians are deliberately troubling them. The guardians wanted them to at least try but looked like the Principal wasn’t willing to shift the school building. We then went to submit the memorandum to the DM and we talked to him. The DM then came with us to survey the school building.
A trustee then informed me about another school that had shifted to a new building, and was vacant. We, along with the DM, visited the vacant building and approved it for use for the school. I published news for the same, and interviewed the DM, principal, students, and the trustees/guardians. The building was then cleaned for use and was ready for a new beginning. The trustees organised a program where they honored me with an idol of Lord Ganesha. There was disappointment among other journalists as they weren’t honored. However, the trustees awarded me for working on their story and getting it published.
I hadn’t noticed the idol too much and hung it as a showpiece in my house. When people from the Muslim community would come to my place and see the idol, they’d ask me if I had re-married a Hindu or changed my religion and often said that it’s a sin to keep a Hindu God’s idol in one’s home. If a Hindu visited my place, he/she would say that the idol was of no use to me while some would be happy seeing that I also have a Hindu God’s idol hung up. Seeing an idol which is usually seen within Hindu homes, makes some people including Hindus and Muslims link me with a Hindu person, that I might be having a relationship with someone in the Chitrakoot region. For me the Ganesh ji idol is a gift, and I respect the gift whatever it is.”
Mariyam - What you just said is a matter of huge concern for me because this sense of discrimination is what drives me to raise questions as to why we cannot adopt other cultures that are practiced in our country. Muslims have been in India for centuries now and our cultures have a lot of similarities. Yes, we do have our own set of practices as Muslims, but that should not barr us from adopting practices from other cultures. Since you bring here an amazing amalgamation of Hinduism, Muslimness and womanhood, I’d like to ask you if you think that people’s mindset pertaining to these Hindu-Muslim prejudices can be changed through any means?
Nazni Rizvi - “I live in a Hindu dominated region. Here as well, there’s a common practice of Hindus not touching Muslims and if they do, they’d have to bathe again. Not only Hindus but Muslims do such things. Recently, I was invited to my relative’s daughter’s wedding. It was a Muslim dominated place. I told my aunt that I don’t wear a veil, how can I come? She asked me to wear a ‘chaadar’, meaning I should have myself covered with something. We cannot do everything completely as per our wishes. So when I went there, I saw that they wouldn’t buy milk from a Hindu’s store, they’d drink black tea instead. They’ll search the entire market in they are hungry, but wouldn’t eat if they can’t find a Muslim-owned eatery or shop.
There are a lot of biases, Hindu-Muslim biases and discussions along those lines that keep on occurring. I was with a cousin once who was travelling from Azamgarh to Raebareli. She (being an ultra-narrow minded person) wouldn’t even drink tea, but only pre-packed cold drinks throughout the journey. Upon asking why, she said it was because it would be difficult to determine whether the tea was made by a Hindu or a Muslim. It amazed me how she believed that Sharia proclaimed pre-packed food as clean, which could have also been packed by a Hindu or a Muslim.
It confounds me that people can believe in such actions as (wrongly) being part of Sharia, because all of these Hindu-Muslim shops didn’t exist back in the times when Sharia was being written. What is all the cultural pretense for? Don’t eat anything in that case then. I held myself back for a long time, but eventually ended up having an argument with the cousin over her discriminatory attitude.”
Mariyam - I believe you’ve said this at a very right time, especially when Muslims in India are being targeted repeatedly. And these are happening at a level where we can clearly see that a campaign is being run to create resentment against Muslims among the Hindus. How do you try to clear such resentments in the larger community?
Nazni Rizvi - “We try to convince people that we are all living in the same country and are Indians before being Muslims. We have a very old slogan saying Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian, we are all brothers. So if we are all really brothers, all this bigotry is not right. Even Hindus don’t eat from Muslim-owned eateries here. If we’re going to bring religion into everything, who packed what food, whether Hindu or Muslim, it is going to be very difficult to bring about change anytime soon.”
Mariyam - But change can happen?
Nazni Rizvi - “Yes, it can. If every family gets one fighter like you and I, we can together bring about change.”
Mariyam - Absolutely, if there’s a Nazni Rizvi in every family, we can definitely change things. My second last question to you would be, how do you deal with the identity confusion where whilst you live within the Muslim community, they don’t identify with you, and while you work outside this community they’re still not able to understand and resonate with you. How do you feel about this? Sometimes I also face this confusion and it is part of the reason as to why I started Main Bhi Muslim, because alongside being women, Muslimness is part of our identity too, irrespective of our lifestyle. So, how do you deal with this confusion among people?
Nazni Rizvi - “I want to add something to this. My identity has more layers to it. Even within Muslims, there are two communities. I am a Shia Muslim. I was married into a Sunni family. When I’m sitting among Sunnis, they think I’m a Shia and they make nasty comments about Shias. But when I’m sitting among Shias, they think I’m a Sunni and they pass comments on Sunnis. They slander Sunnis and tell my children that they do not belong to the Syyed family. This is also a kind of violence that I am fighting where I’ve been divided into 3 different communities. Because I come from a Shia family, I don’t like those things where there is flagellation (during Muharram processions) and unnecessary bleeding.
And when I call out such things, I’m considered an atheist among my family, I’m a bad woman. Saying so about Maula makes them think of me as deserving hell. The Sunnis ask if I offer Namaaz as many times as Shias do and vice-versa, whereas for me, I do not offer Namaaz (smiles). Neither the Shias kind nor the Sunnis kind.
When I’m among Muslims, my ‘bindi’ and ‘bichiyas’ don’t make me a Muslim and if I’m among Hindus, my name makes me Muslim. I’m not doing anything Muslim enough to be a Muslim, but that’s what I am. I’m dealing with all these things. A lot of Muslim girls these days have started wearing a ‘bindi’ for they do not think doing so is wrong.”
Mariyam - We are learning from you. I think it's very important for us to have many examples like you within our community so that more girls, who want to pursue journalism, who want to make their own life decisions, have such inspiring figures that give them courage. It is essential they understand that they are not alone.
So, what changes are required in the Muslim community which are necessary to bring about independence and maintain individuality in the identity of women, especially in rural areas where changing mindset is most difficult and time taking?
Nazni Rizvi - “Within Muslims, the Purdah system and dressing restrictions need to first change, which are more common in rural areas. They have reduced in urban areas, but even today, Muslim women in Mumbai do not move out without a veil, irrespective of what they’re wearing inside. For example, I allow my girls to wear all that they like. They wear shorts, skirts, jeans, and everything they like. They do not like wearing suits, but considering our society, I ask them to wear one sometimes so that they are habitual to it, that too because of what people in the community will say. But I never stop them from wearing what they like. We have a lot of dressing constraints, we are always asked to wear dupattas, even at home, even with our family.
These things, the purdah system needs to change. It’s not fair that if we are not under a veil, we are looked upon wrongly. In rural regions, even during big family functions, meals are also served in different places for both the genders, unlike in urban areas where everyone is just enjoying themselves together. During the ‘bidaai’ of my cousin, not a single man or boy could come to meet her at the end, to bid her goodbye, not even her father, because the purdah system is so prevalent. It's very important for people to change their regressive attitudes towards others’ religions. You’re drinking black tea with lemon because the milk available is from a Hindu-owned dairy only. What if the lemon also comes from a tree owned by a Hindu?
Mariyam - You are absolutely right, it's very important. And I see these things in your way of reporting too where you’re able to talk to anyone because you ask the same questions to everyone. When you’re making your videos, you ask everyone the questions pertaining to feminism, misogyny, biases within communities against others, and untouchability, irrespective of gender, and it is very important we all ask these right questions to ourselves and to everyone around us in order to arrive at the right answers. We cannot expect to change mindsets towards creating oneness and unity among all, unless we are asking the right questions.
I ask all my guests: ‘Main bhi Muslim’, what value do these 3 words hold for you?
Nazni Rizvi - “It doesn’t occur to me that I am a Muslim. What matters most to me is that I am a woman, an Indian. Whenever there’s a match or a competition, it doesn’t bother people much which country is on the opponent team. But if it is an India vs Pakistan match, Indian Hindus and Muslims have the same enthusiasm to support our country. Pakistan was indeed a piece of our once India, but India is where we are now, India feeds us, India is my nation. As Muslims residing in India, India should matter most to us. Yes, we could all have favorite players from any team around the world, but I don't feel any extra excitement each time that there’s an India-Pakistan match, unlike most people. Hindus have this thing where they do not care about other matches or countries, all they want is that Pakistan shouldn’t win. Neither Muslims, nor Hindus should think and act that way.”
Mariyam - I think, as a woman myself, this entire episode has helped me understand what topics need to be really talked about and must be resolved first, in order to bring about a change in the bigger picture, to change other things that are often talked about. We must get to the roots of all the issues that exist in our society, and here, the root is patriarchy. All issues must be talked about with a feministic perspective. Thank you, Nazni Ji. I’m really excited to release this episode. I’m really thankful to you from the bottom of my heart.
Nazni Rizvi - “Sometimes, people do feel these things (patriarchy) but aren’t able to say it out loud. When we ask people these questions, it forces them to think about it, and that could maybe trigger change. Deep down, they do understand that what they’re doing is wrong and unfair, but aren’t able to act on it. Therefore, it's very important to ask the right questions.”
Mariyam - Thank you Nazni, for your questions, and I hope you’ll continue raising the same issues and asking the right questions. I am confident that very soon, we’ll have a Nazni Rizvi in every family in our society. With that hope and confidence we keep moving forward. Looking forward to seeing you sometime, somewhere.
Nazni Rizvi - Thank you. :)
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This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this episode, MBM’s producer & host - Mariyam Haider speaks to Dr Aqsa Shaikh, Associate Professor of Community Medicine at the Hamdard Institute of Medical Sciences & Research, and the first trans woman to head a COVID-19 vaccine centre in India.
Their conversation sheds light on Dr Aqsa’s journey of being an Indian Muslim woman, a trans person, a community builder, an activist along with being a doctor and managing these identities with conviction, strength and courage.
Dr Aqsa shares the story of her ‘hijrat’, her faith and her truth, to write a better history for tomorrow. She also highlights ways in each one of us can tackle Islamophobia and regressive gender stereotypes, not just publicly but within our smallest circles. Her personal, professional and political life choices offer a comforting space to all those who live within varying degrees of societal marginalisations.
This Pride Month and always, MBM stands strong with the LGBTQI+ community, and is a place for its voices, rights, and freedoms. Listen to this episode, share it widely, and recognise your part in reimagining a better India.
Love,
Mariyam
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this episode, Sabika and Mariyam share their journeys as 30 year-old, Indian Muslim women.
They discuss the challenges that most Indian women face in their 20s - incuding the pressures to get married, having a ‘settled life’, choosing family over career, finding a good ‘Muslim’ guy, and living in fears of being unmarried at 30.
How far did these fear lead them to make life decisions? How did they recognise these fears and manage them? Have these fears dissolved for good? How can other women across ages tackle such patriarchal expectations?
Give this episode a listen as Mariyam and Sabika talk love, family, friendship, therapy and career - things that made them comfortable to be ‘unsettled at 30’.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com -
In this episode, Mariyam and Sabika virtually sit down with Indian author, columnist and film-maker, Natasha Badhwar to discuss one’s capacity to love amid times of polarisation and hate in a society.
Natasha shares her personal learnings from growing up in different parts of India, marrying a Muslim, using social media as a tool for communicating love, and working with Karwan e Mohabbat - a people’s campaign devoted to the universal values of the constitution, solidarity, equality, freedom, justice and compassion.
Happy Valentine’s Day, everyone from MBM.
This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.mainbhimuslim.com - Показать больше
