Episodes
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This is an exciting time in the fight for Black reparations! As momentum builds across the country, Pay The Tab is expanding in new directions - including the first-ever reparations course at UCLA Law School. In this special episode, Tony and Adam bring the latest news, answer your questions, and share things we all can do to disrupt America's toxic system of racism, denial, and capitalist greed.
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The largest-ever court award for slavery reparations came from an unlikely plaintiff. Henrietta Wood was an enslaved woman who gained her freedom in the 1840s - only to be kidnapped and sold back into slavery for 15 more horrific years. Her heroic fight for payback is inspiration for today’s reparations battle. Join us with historian Caleb McDaniel, whose book telling Wood's story, Sweet Taste Of Liberty, won the Pulitzer Prize.
Caleb McDaniel's home pageCaleb McDaniel's book about Henrietta Wood, Sweet Taste Of LibertyStolen by Richard Bell - story of five Black boys kidnapped from Philadelphia into slavery in 1825 More about Henrietta Wood's son Arthur Sims including his photo in Jet Magazine when he was America's oldest practicing Black lawyer!
SHOW NOTES
Guest: W. Caleb McDaniel
Dr. McDaniel is a professor at Rice University and U.S. historian, focusing on the Civil War Era and the struggle over slavery. He chairs the Department of History and serves as co-chair of Rice's Task Force on Slavery, Segregation, and Racial Injustice. His book, Sweet Taste of Liberty: A True Story of Slavery and Restitution in America, was awarded the 2020 Pulitzer Prize in History.HIGHLIGHTS OF EPISODE:
[5:57] The “reverse Underground Railroad” and kidnapping gangs in border states
[12:51] The villain: Zebulon Ward
[17:37] The case: Henrietta Wood v. Zebulon Ward
[20:38] Generational impact of court award on Wood’s family
[28:42] Importance of political action in the fight for reparations
[31:52] The hero: Henrietta Wood
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Rep. Justin J. Pearson blows away our live audience with his bold case for reparations - and for making change through multiracial solidarity. He speaks on the racist connections of gun violence and environmental pollution; and what we need to do to fix things. Also on video!
SHOW NOTES
The closing argument: Rep. Pearson’s case for reparations in 10 minutes
Guest: Rep. Justin J. Pearson
Rep. Pearson is one of the most exciting new progressive voices in America. He’s state representative for Tennessee's 86th district, which includes the city of Memphis. He made international news in 2023 as part of the "Tennessee Three" when he was expelled and then reinstated after leading protests over gun violence. He led a multiracial movement that took on billion-dollar corporations and saved Memphis’s drinking water by blocking a pipeline scheduled to run through the city’s Black community.
Rep. Justin J. Pearson and the Tennessee Three: NPR piece
Justin J. Pearson’s fight against the Memphis pipeline on Heather McGhee's podcast
More on the “solidarity dividend”: Heather McGhee’s book The Sum of Us
More on Justin J. Pearson’s time as an activist at Bowdoin College
Rep. Pearson’s letter addressing the his colleague’s inaction on gun reform April 2023
HIGHLIGHTS OF EPISODE:
[17:24] What “environmental racism” is and how it hurts communities
[25:56] Importance of a multi-racial, intergenerational movement for justice
[29:52] Reparations for environmental racism
[39:02] Racist origins of the Second Amendment
[49:29] How gun violence and environmental racism are connected
[55:35] The case for reparations in 10 minutes
[1:11:06] Audience Q & AContact Tony & Adam
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Did you know Black Americans get about one hour less sleep each night than white people? Less sleep means serious health problems - and shorter life spans. We dive into this shocking “racial sleep gap” with a leading authority on the subject, Dr. Dayna Johnson. She breaks down where it comes from (spoiler alert: it’s all about racism) - and what we need to do to fix it!
Dr. Dayna Johnson’s home page
SHOW NOTES
Guest: Dr. Dayna Johnson
Dayna Johnson is an Assistant Professor of Epidemiology at Emory University in Atlanta. She earned her Ph.D. in Epidemiologic Science from the University of Michigan. Dr. Johnson completed her postdoctoral fellowship at Harvard Medical School and Brigham and Women's Hospital. Her research explores the causes of sleep health disparities, especially those due to race and gender.
From Tricia Hersey (AKA the “Nap Bishop”):"No More Grind”: her podcast interview about rest as resistanceHer manifesto, Rest Is ResistanceGreat article: “Reparations for Black People Should Include Rest”
HIGHLIGHTS OF EPISODE:
[0:55] Tony & Adam on the “racial sleep gap”[9:52] Societal racism as root cause of the sleep gap
[14:42] How individual racism impacts Black people’s sleep
[16:48] Why Black people with more income and education often get less sleep
[26:25] How Black trauma can cause lifelong sleep problems
[33:51] Ideas on reparations for Black Americans’ sleep
[48:51] Tony’s call to action for Black listeners
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In the largest single act of mass incarceration in U.S. history, our government forced over 125,000 Japanese Americans into prison camps for three years during World War II. On this special live episode, two leading activists join us to expose the true story of this racist atrocity, the fight for reparations that followed, and the importance of racial solidarity in all movements for change. We know Black America can achieve reparations: it’s been done before!
SHOW NOTESGuests: Kathy Masaoka and traci kato-kiriyama
Kathy Masaoka was active in the movement for Japanese American redress in the 1980s and has worked to educate Americans about the camps. She co-chairs Nikkei for Civil Rights & Redress (NCRR) and is active in the fight for Black reparations, testifying before Congress in support of H.R. 40 in 2022.
traci kato-kiriyama is an award-winning multi-disciplinary artist and activist, recognized for her work as writer, performer, cultural producer, community organizer, and audiobook narrator. traci co-chairs the National Nikkei Reparations Coalition and is on the Why We Can't Wait Coalition.
Check out the VIDEO of this live episode!
More on the incarceration of Japanese Americans:
Searchable list of all 125,284 names of those incarcerated (Ireizō)NCRR’s book on the fight for Japanese American reparationsVideos of the 1981 hearings“Pilgrimage” documentary
More on traci kato-kuriyama’s work:
traci’s websiteTheir amazing book Navigating Without Instruments
More from bridgette bianca:
Her poem from our live show: “There Goes The Neighborhood”bridgette’s homepageThe California Reparations Task Force proposals for Black reparations
Highlights of episode:
[9:56] Bogus excuses vs. real reasons for Japanese Americans’ incarceration[15:31] Kathy and traci's family experiences in prison camps
[21:45] traci reads "No Redress"
[29:39] Clips from J.A. reparations hearings
[36:51] Limitations of J.A. reparations
[39:11] Lessons of racial solidarity
[52:05] traci reads "Note to Nikkei Community on Reparations"
[56:35] Q & A
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Mass incarceration is a cancer that’s devouring Black communities. Writer and filmmaker Asia Johnson joins us and shares her experiences as a formerly incarcerated woman - and her visions for a new system of justice. Recorded with a live audience. Also on video!
SHOW NOTES
Guest: Asia Johnson
Asia Johnson is a writer, filmmaker, and activist for the rights of incarcerated people. She is the Manager of Storytelling for zealo.us, a national advocacy, arts, education, and media institute. Her debut short film “Out of Place” screened at universities across the country. She is currently working on her first feature length documentary.
Check out the VIDEO of this episode!
More about Asia and her work:
Asia’s homepageAsia’s first film Out Of Placezealo.usRight of Return FellowshipArt for Justice
More about the prison-industrial complex:
13th (Ava DuVernay’s documentary masterpiece)The New Jim Crow (Michelle Alexander’s definitive book)Vera Institute of Justice
More about Restorative Justice:
Until We Reckon (book by Danielle Sered)Common Justice (Sered’s RJ organization in Chicago)Restorativejustice.orgHighlights of episode:
[8:20] Asia shares her early life and family experiences
[18:20] Asia shares her experience in prison
[22:23] [Asia explains challenges people face after prison
[31:59] Asia envisions abolition of mass incarceration
[37:24] More productive ways to spend $200 billion
[38:56] Restorative justice as alternative to mass incarceration
[55:03] Adam discusses indifference of white America as key obstacle
[56:24] Asia’s Q&A with the audience
[1:14:37] Asia’s closing poem and call to action
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Why has it always been damn near impossible for Black Americans to make ends meet - let alone build wealth? Join us with Mehrsa Baradaran, law professor and a leading expert on the racial wealth gap. She speaks the truth and helps us bust the myths we’ve all been fed about race, money, and the American Dream. Mehrsa also has an innovative plan to bridge the gap real fast!
SHOW NOTES
Guest: Mehrsa BaradaranMehrsa Baradaran is a professor at UC Irvine Law School and a leading expert on the racial wealth gap. Her award-winning book The Color of Money is the definitive work on the subject. Mehrsa’s proposed “Homestead Act for the 21st Century” lays out a bold plan to redress hundreds of years of racial discrimination and enable Black Americans to fully participate in the American Dream of homeownership.
The Color of MoneyHow the Other Half Banks
Highlights of Episode:
[1:53] Racial wealth gap explained
[4:46] Origin and expansion of the wealth gap
[15:11] Role of U.S. government in vicious cycle of discrimination against Black people
[18:35] Myths about causes of the wealth gap
[22:06] Real reasons for the gap
[23:40] Mehrsa’s Homestead Act for the 21st Century
[30:01] How reparations will uplift everyone
[33:48] Ideas for making reparations personal
Mehrsa’s plan for reparations: A Homestead Act for the 21st Century
Books by Mehrsa Baradaran:
Redlining maps for all U.S. cities More on the U.S. government’s role in redlining
Mehrsa’s video testimony to the California Reparations Task Force (10/13/21)
More on "redlining":
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Morgan Curtis discovered that her family’s wealth (and her large inheritance) were made from centuries of exploitation and suffering, including slavery. What she did in response is an amazing story of personal reparations - and reminds us of the power of facing hard truths and living our lives with purpose.
SHOW NOTES
Guest: Morgan CurtisMorgan Curtis is a young white woman making personal reparations through giving away all of her inherited wealth to causes supporting Black and Indigenous empowerment. She also coaches other wealthy people interested in redistributing their wealth. Morgan is a graduate student at Harvard Divinity School, focused on the spiritual dimension of reparations work for white descendants of colonizers and enslavers.
Highlights of Episode:
[8:05] Surprise discovery of large investment account in her name
[16:33] Challenges accessing the money and navigating relationship with her father
[18:53] Plan for giving away her money
[24:35] Morgan’s wealth distribution coaching
[34:23] Role of guilt and shame
[36:41] Reparations resources
Morgan’s Homepage: More about Morgan and her work, including coaching services. You can chart the details of her giving on this Wealth Redistribution Spreadsheet. And check out her mini-book manifesto, Decolonial Dames of America.
More resources for wealth redistribution and social change, mentioned in the episode:
Resource Generation: Organizes young people with wealth and class privilege to become transformative leaders working towards the equitable distribution of wealth, land, and power.Solidaire Network: Community of donors moving resources to intersectional movements for racial, gender, and climate justice.Coming To The Table: Providing leadership, resources, and a supportive environment for all who wish to acknowledge and heal wounds from racism that is rooted in the United States’ history of slavery.Reparations 4 Slavery: Major portal for leaders doing deep work on reparations in America.Seed Commons: A national network of locally-rooted, non-extractive loan funds that brings the power of big finance under community control.Thousand Currents: They use relationships and resources worldwide in support of social movements building loving, equitable, and just futures, while transforming philanthropic and investment practices.
Atlanta episode “The Big Payback” trailer (season 3, episode 4):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWDBXNFM5A0
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Show notes:
The incredible Robin D. G. Kelley schools us on what true reparations could look like - and how to use our collective power to envision a better future. Recorded in Los Angeles with a live audience. See the video HERE!
Guest: Robin D. G. Kelley
Robin Kelley is a leading historian, author, and thinker of our time - or any time. His groundbreaking book Freedom Dreams: The Black Radical Imagination offers inspiring visions for a bold Black future. He breaks down why we need to imagine a radically different world in the fight for reparations. Filmed with a live audience at the Greenway Court Theatre in Los Angeles.
Check out the VIDEO of this episode!
Highlights of Episode:[7:59] Freedom Dreams is invitation to engage in struggle, make mistakes, learn from past movements
[10:10] The global nature of racism and oppression, seeing reparations more broadly
[13:12] Role of artists as truth-tellers
[24:39] Robin’s bold possibilities for reparations
[26:20] Why we need to transform society; link between Black and Indigenous reparations
[32:42] Tony’s tribute to our mothers
[45:42] Why we can’t ever get equality under capitalism
The Black ManifestoN'COBRAProvisional Government Of The Republic Of New Afrika"Queen Mother" Audley MooreCallie House
Some key reparations movements and pioneers from the past:
Freedom Dreams: The Black Radical Imagination (20th anniv. edition)Africa Speaks, America Answers: Modern Jazz in Revolutionary TimesThelonious Monk: The Life and Times of an American OriginalYo' Mama's DisFunktional: Fighting the Culture Wars in Urban AmericaRace Rebels: Culture, Politics, and the Black Working ClassHammer and Hoe: Alabama Communists During the Great Depression
Selected books by Robin Kelley:
Aja Monet - Dynamic young poet who wrote the new foreword to Freedom Dreams"Who'll Pay Reparations On My Soul" by Gil Scott-Heron - Groundbreaking musician, poet, author, and activistSekou Sindiata - Brilliant poet who made profound impact on Freedom Dreams
Robin highlights the critical role of artists in the struggle for Black liberation:
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Dr. J. Marion Sims is hailed as the Father of Modern Gynecology. But his reputation was built through inhumane experiments on enslaved young women. We talk with “creative extremist” Michelle Browder, who exposes the truth about Sims, the racism of the medical profession, and using art as a form of reparations.
SHOW NOTES
Guest: Michelle Browder
Michelle is a dynamic artist and activist based in Montgomery, Alabama. Her work exposes our true history, empowers youth, and honors those who have been ignored. For her groundbreaking “Mothers of Gynecology” sculptures, Michelle was a USA Today 2022 Women of the Year selection.
Highlights of episode:
[0:37] Adam & Tony on anti-Black racism in the U.S. medical profession[6:47] Michelle on Anarcha, Lucy and Betsey
[11:01] Michelle on Sims’s experiments
[14:30] Michelle on her creative process for the “Mothers of Gynecology”
[25:46] Michelle on exposing Alabama’s injustices against Native Americans
[29:53] Michelle on racism in the medical profession and need for a reckoning
[42:46] Tony & Adam on Michelle’s upcoming Mothers of Gynecology Health & Wellness Center
Michelle’s HomepageDonate to Michelle’s work
"Mothers of Gynecology”
Photos and story from NPRShort Video with MichelleHere’s the old painting of Sims that triggered Michelle’s artistic journey.Here’s Michelle’s new mural of Sims with Anarcha, Lucy and Betsey!Michelle’s recommended reading on racism and Black people’s health:
Post Tramatic Slave Syndrome (Joy DeGruy)Medical Apartheid: The Dark History of Medical Experimentation on Black Americans From Colonial Times to the Present (Harriett Washington)Medical Bondage: Race, Gender, and the Origins of American Gynecology (Deidre Cooper Owens)Under the Skin: The Hidden Toll of Racism on American Lives and on the Health of the Nation (Linda Villarosa)
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Part 2 of our story on the Tulsa Race Massacre looks at the historic lawsuit for reparations going on right now. We have a riveting conversation with Hughes Van Ellis, 101, one of three living survivors – and a plaintiff in that case. Guests Eric Miller and Kristi Williams return to give us the inside scoop on the case and the government’s literal coverup of possible mass graves.
SHOW NOTESGuests: Kristi Williams, Eric Miller, Hughes Van Ellis
Hughes Van Ellis, 101, is a survivor of the Tulsa massacre. Along with his sister Viola Fletcher, 108, and Mother Randle, 108, he is a plaintiff in the Tulsa lawsuit that’s going forward in court.
Kristi Williams is a Tulsa-based activist and organizer. She chairs the Greater Tulsa African American Affairs Commission. Kristi’s great-aunt Janie was a survivor of the Tulsa Race Massacre.
Eric Miller is a professor at Loyola Law School and an expert on reparations. He is co-counsel on the groundbreaking lawsuit filed by Justice For Greenwood, seeking reparations for the Tulsa massacre.Highlights of episode:
[5:28] Kristi Williams on the search for mass graves and a dispute over the number killed in the massacre
[11:07] Tony, Adam, and Eric Miller on the reparations lawsuit in Tulsa
[15:29] Tony on a new court ruling in the lawsui
[18:57] Hughes Van Ellis interview
[31:54] Eric Miller reflects on a key question for reparations
[34:34] What people can do to help
Check out Justice For Greenwood’s reparations lawsuit for the Tulsa massacre.
Groups fighting for change in Tulsa:
Justice For Greenwood Founded by Damario Solomon-Simmons, lead attorney for the Tulsa lawsuit and hero for civil rights in Oklahoma, this group is fighting for reparations for the massacre.Terence Crutcher Foundation Based in Tulsa, they are working to end racial violence, especially by police against unarmed Black men.
The Nation Must Awake: My Witness to the Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921 A riveting firsthand account by Tulsa resident and journalist Mary Parrish.Reconstructing the Dreamland: The Tulsa Riot of 1921 (Race, Reparations, and Reconciliation) A history of the massacre with a focus on reparations, by Alfred Brophy.
More about the Tulsa Race Massacre:
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The Tulsa Race Massacre was one of the most horrific events in U.S. history. Was it just a riot by an angry white mob - or an all-out war on Black Americans by their own government? Join us for the real story on what went down in 1921. Special guest: Kristi Williams, Tulsa activist and descendant of a massacre survivor.
SHOW NOTESGuest: Kristi Williams
Kristi is a Tulsa-based activist, organizer, and “love advocate.” She chairs the Greater Tulsa African American Affairs Commission and serves on the 1921 Mass Graves Investigation Committee. Kristi also is the descendant of a survivor of the Tulsa Race Massacre.
Highlights of episode:
[3:14] Backdrop to the story: Oklahoma and Greenwood
[5:54] Tony & Adam lay out the events of 1921
[12:26] Firsthand accounts of the massacre from The Nation Must Awake
[14:32] Kristi Williams on her aunt’s experience in the massacre
[17:14] Eric Miller on the government role, and the real motives for the massacre
[22:04] Kristi on the real motives, and the legacy of Greenwood
[25:53] Tony & Adam on Greenwood as a symbol of Black excellence and the effects of Jim Crow
More about the Tulsa Race Massacre:
The Nation Must Awake: My Witness to the Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921 - A riveting firsthand account by Tulsa resident and journalist Mary Parrish.Reconstructing the Dreamland: The Tulsa Riot of 1921 (Race, Reparations, and Reconciliation) - A history of the massacre with a focus on reparations, by Alfred Brophy.Groups fighting for change in Tulsa:
Justice For Greenwood: Founded by Damario Solomon-Simmons, lead attorney for the Tulsa lawsuit and hero for civil rights in Oklahoma, this group is fighting for reparations for the massacre.Terence Crutcher Foundation: Based in Tulsa, they are working to end racial violence, especially by police against Black people.Contact Tony & Adam
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Big things are happening on the West Coast! The California Reparations Task Force is deep into its revolutionary work. We talk with chairperson Kamilah Moore, who gives us the inside scoop on how they’re hatching a real plan - one that can set the stage for reparations across the whole country!
SHOW NOTES
Guest: Kamilah MooreKamilah is Chairperson of the California Reparations Task Force. She’s a reparations scholar and an entertainment attorney in Los Angeles. Kamilah earned a B.A. in Political Science from UCLA, a law degree from Columbia, and a Master of Laws degree in International Criminal Law from the University of Amsterdam. Twitter: @KamilahVMoore
Highlights of episode:
[0:36] Adam & Tony on the historic nature of the Task Force’s reparations plan
[4:14] Kamilah on the false narrative of California as a “free” state
[7:20] Kamilah on who should be eligible for reparations
[9:56] Why it’s hard for most Black people to trace their geneology, and the “brick wall of 1870”
[15:16] Kamilah on the criminalizing of African Americans, from slavery to today
[22:30] Adam & Tony on the eligibility issue
[24:28] Adam & Tony on the task force’s key proposals
The California Reparations Task Force:
Full Interim ReportExecutive SummaryPreliminary RecommendationsHome pageTestimony of Prof. Erwin Chemerinsky to the Task Force, about how to define the eligible group to give best chances of being upheld in court.Black Panther Party’s 10-Point Platform
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In the city famous for segregation and corruption, we’ll see how many hoops Black people had to jump through, just to get a place to live. This scam would make Al Capone blush: crooked banks, politicians and realtors conspired to rob Black Chicagoans of more than 4 billion dollars! Special guest: Amber Hendley, housing activist and reparations warrior.
SHOW NOTES
Guest: Amber HendleyAmber is a dynamic force in the national reparations movement. She directs the African American Leadership and Policy Institute, and works to promote Black homeownership. She co-authored The Plunder of Black Wealth in Chicago, an expose of the billions stolen from Black homebuyers under the “contract” system.
Highlights of episode:
[0:36] Tony & Adam on the wealth gap and why it’s been so hard for Black people to buy a house
[8:31] Amber on the Chicago housing scam
[15:01] Amber on how much money was stolen from Black Chicagoans
[22:51] Amber’s on what we need for housing reparations
[29:38] Tony & Adam’s ideas on reparations for this scam
More on the Chicago scam:
“The Case For Reparations” by Ta-Nehesi Coates. This article was a game-changer. Exhibit A of his “case” is the Chicago scam and its devastating effects on the Black community.“In My Father’s House” - This 1972 piece lays out the whole story of the Chicago scam while it was still happening, with personal details.Family Properties by Beryl Satter. A detailed account of the Chicago contract buying system and the Contract Buyers League, who fought back and eventually forced the system to change.
For the full story on redlining and America’s history of government-led segregation, see Richard Rothstein’s explosive book, The Color Of Law.
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What’s so threatening about the sight of Black people relaxing? Tony and Adam tell the story of a thriving Black-owned beach resort near L.A. that was shut down by the government - with a dramatic new reparations twist. We also look at ways the city could get Black people to come back. Special guest: pioneering historian Alison Rose Jefferson.SHOW NOTES
Guest: Alison Rose Jefferson
Alison is a historian and scholar-in-residence at Occidental College. Her book "Living the California Dream: African American Leisure Sites during the Jim Crow Era" is available at Eso Won Books and other Black booksellers.
Alison’s home pageAlison’s commemorative justice project for the City of Santa Monica, CAHighlights of episode:
[0:36] Why are whites so bothered by Black people relaxing in public?
[7:02] The story of Bruce’s Beach
[19:36] Breaking news on reparations at Bruce’s Beach
[22:20] Tony and Adam’s plan to draw Black people back
[33:24] How listeners can get involved
Robert Brigham’s grad school thesis, “Land Ownership and Occupancy by Negroes in Manhattan Beach” (1956) is HERE
Text of H.R. 40H.R. 40 passes out of House Judiciary CommitteeFind Your Representative
H.R. 40 (Bill to Set Up Commission to Study Reparations for African Americans):
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Why reparations? Why now? Get to know Adam and Tony as we kick off Pay The Tab! Special guest Maureen Simmons helped create California's first-of-its-kind reparations task force, while still a college student. Maureen schools us on reparations - and shares her story of making history.SHOW NOTES
Guest: Maureen Simmons
A key player in the national reparations movement, Maureen helped create California’s reparations task force and has consulted other states on their reparations plans. She has advised Ice Cube on his Contract With Black America platform.
Twitter: @TheMoChroniclesInstagram: mz_esqCalifornia Reparations Task Force home pageHighlights of episode:
[01:40] Why reparations? Why now?
[05:32] Meet Tony & Adam
[12:35] Maureen Simmons: intro to reparations
[20:36] Maureen on the California connection to slavery
[26:48] Maureen’s wish list for reparations
[31:37] Tony & Adam recap
Text of H.R. 40H.R. 40 passes out of House Judiciary CommitteeFind Your Representative
H.R. 40 (Bill to Set Up Commission to Study Reparations for African Americans):
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Introducing PAY THE TAB: Reparations Now! Join hosts Tony and Adam as they make the case for reparations, one story at a time.
