Episodes
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Senior Scientist Julia Chantin unpacks how cognitive biases and flawed feedback loops sabotage learning—and why SaaS leaders need to care. From debunking misconceptions (like why “proving” someone wrong often backfires) to the power of embodied learning, Julia reveals how diverse perspectives and physical interaction drive breakthroughs. Learn actionable strategies to challenge assumptions, build resilient teams, and design products that align with how humans actually learn - not just how we think they do.
"We need to reward effort, not just success."01:20 - 07:30
Why Feedback Loops Fail (And How to Fix Them)
Julia breaks down why homogeneous feedback reinforces biases, the danger of “echo chambers,” and why SaaS teams need diverse perspectives to challenge assumptions.07:30 - 14:45
Embodied Learning: The Science Behind VR, Physicality, and Retention
Deep dive into Julia’s research: How physical interaction (e.g., movement, touch) reshapes learning, why traditional education often misses the mark, and implications for SaaS product design.14:45 - 22:00
From Theory to Practice: Actionable Strategies for Leaders
Tactical advice: Building resilient teams, designing experiments that embrace failure, and fostering curiosity over “convincing.” Includes Leah’s relatable analogies (e.g., gym consistency vs. learning).22:00 - 28:50
The Emotional Side of Learning: Fear, Identity, and Incentives
Julia explains why emotional engagement matters (e.g., imposter syndrome, fear of failure), and how leaders can align incentives with sustainable learning processes.28:50 - 33:00
Key Takeaways & Closing
Julia’s final wisdom: Why “explaining to understand” beats “explaining to convince,” and how SaaS leaders can start small (e.g., toy projects, cross-functional feedback).Send us a text
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The amazing Emily Kramer talks with me about B2B Marketing, the rise and fall of influencer marketing, and the challenges of navigating the 2025 social media noise.
What does the future of marketing look like while everything changes so rapidly?
takeaways
Influencer marketing is becoming less effective.Sound Bites
"The death of channels might be more accurate.""You have to figure out your strengths first.""You need to shut up about the other things.""Don't run your startup like an enterprise."Chapters
00:00 Understanding Marketing Channels
05:06 The Evolution of Marketing
10:07 Influencer Marketing in B2B
15:13 Navigating the Noise of Social Media
19:58 Identifying Unique Marketing Advantages
25:13 The Importance of Focus in Marketing
26:39 Navigating Brand Messaging and Differentiation
29:02 The Importance of Focus in Marketing Strategies
31:11 Balancing Ideas and Execution in Marketing Plans
33:05 Marketing as a Product: A New Perspective
35:51 Lifecycle Marketing: Engaging Existing Customers
39:20 Rethinking Marketing Goals and Metrics
42:39 The Evolution of Marketing Structures
45:02 The Future of Marketing: Innovation and Adaptation
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Missing episodes?
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Kris Rudeegraap, Co-CEO of Sendoso, talks about Sendoso’s journey from plg to sales-led back to plg and what all of this has to do with personal branding in B2B marketing. Why is Sendoso betting on physical advertising channels like gifts and direct mail as a provider, and what does he see the future of getting attention from the market looking like with AI changing everything?
Takeaways
Companies are exploring underutilized marketing channels for 2025.Direct mail and gifting are emerging as effective marketing strategies.The evolution of Sendoso reflects the need for both sales-led and product-led growth.Sales and product-led growth must be balanced for success.Sound Bites
"The inbox on LinkedIn is broken.""Resumes are almost dead."Chapters
00:00 Exploring Underutilized Marketing Channels
05:00 The Evolution of Sendoso: From Sales-Led to Product-Led Growth
09:49 Navigating the Challenges of Product Development
13:50 The Importance of Personal Branding in B2B
20:11 The Future of Content Creation and Marketing Strategies
24:39 The Evolving Landscape of Business Growth
25:57 Rethinking Go-to-Market Strategies
27:48 The Renaissance of Employee Education
29:44 Building a Sustainable Outbound Engine
31:10 Balancing Sales and Product-Led Growth
33:20 Navigating Customer Success and Sales Dynamics
35:35 The Future of Account Management
38:26 AI Agents in Customer Interaction
41:43 The Integration of AI in Customer Support
43:37 The Expanding Definition of Go-to-Market
45:31 The Future of Cross-Functional Teams
47:27 The Role of AI in Product Optimization
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“The only time where I saw all the VPs align is when they all hated the CEO” Why do we keep getting organizations wrong? How should you think about your team, the team of teams, and the organization you’re in?
Our five principles of organizational design and how to navigate growth and scaling challenges, particularly in startups.
takeaways
Growth should be a collective responsibility across all departments.High internal conflict is a sign of poor organizational health.C-level executives must act as translators between departments. Internal curiosity is as important as external curiosity.Smaller companies often scale too quickly without solid foundations.Founders should maintain humility about what they don't know.Sound Bites
"We start out with a high-level idea, then complicate it.""You should measure MQLs, not celebrate them.""Make sure you're alive to fight in the next round."Chapters
00:00 Understanding the Dual Role of a CMO
06:08The Ownership of Growth: A Collective Responsibility
12:12 Organizational Design: Indicators of Health and Conflict
17:51 The Complexity of Metrics and Data Overload
23:56 Cross-Functional Collaboration: The Role of C-Level Executives
30:38 The Importance of Internal Curiosity
31:36 Lessons from the GE Hawthorne Experiments
32:32 Feedback and Communication in Organizations
34:21 Five Principles of Organizational Design
36:14 Designing for Healthy Conflicts
37:40 Rethinking Marketing Qualified Leads (MQLs)
40:02 The Role of Incentives in Organizational Success
42:17 Establishing Fail-Safe Processes
44:13 Challenges Faced by Smaller Companies
45:08 The Need for Humility in Startups
48:57 The Complexity of Large-Scale Projects
50:50 Understanding Time vs. Money in Enterprise Sales
52:00 Practical Advice for Implementing Change
56:41 Managing Big Projects Effectively
59:01 Staying Alive in the Competitive Landscape
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The evolution of sales models, the critical role of customer success in driving revenue, and the responsibilities of C-level executives in fostering cross-functional collaboration with Harini Gokul, CCO @ Entrust, from a first principle perspective.
The challenges of implementing product-led sales strategies and the importance of simplifying metrics for effective decision-making. Why traditional customer metrics don’t work that well anymore and why it’s all about two things in business, no matter the scale:
Securing and growing customers.
Takeaways
C-level roles require a focus on company-wide outcomes, not just departmental interests.Cross-functional problems often feel dangerous with little upside.Sales teams often lack the skills to interpret data effectively.Transforming organizations requires a willingness to challenge the status quo.Sound Bites
"Revenue happens everywhere.""What does good look like?"Chapters
00:00 Rethinking Sales Models for Modern Business
12:04 The Role of Customer Success in Revenue Generation
24:06 Understanding C-Level Responsibilities and Cross-Functional Collaboration
28:19 Bridging Data Silos in Organizations
32:34 The Challenge of Product-Led Sales
36:47 Simplifying Metrics for Better Decision Making
39:11 Rethinking NPS and Customer Success Metrics
42:56 Time to Value: A Key Metric for Success
46:48 External Benchmarks and Customer Perspectives
49:40 Transforming Organizations for Modern Business
55:50 Closing Thoughts and Future Connections
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We explore the rising significance of interactive demos in B2B SaaS. How these demos serve as a bridge between potential buyers and products, improving all relevant pipeline numbers.
The evolution of demo technology, the role of Gen.AI in enhancing demo creation, and the shifting dynamics of the sales process towards a more self-service model.
How does the future of marketing in a product-led world look like for Sales?
Takeaways
Gen.AI will revolutionize demo creation and usage.The market for interactive demos is expanding rapidly.Buyers prefer to explore products independently before engaging sales.Budget holders are becoming more flexible and decentralized.Value-driven marketing will replace traditional methods.Sound Bites
"Interactive demos are a stepping stone towards PLG.""Stop playing with words, play with value."Chapters
03:57 Defining Interactive Demos
09:46 The Evolution of Demo Technology
14:02 The Impact of Gen.AI on Demos
20:04 The Future of Sales and Interactive Demos
26:05 The Evolving Role of Sellers in Tech Sales
27:05 Changing Dynamics of Budget Holders
28:54The Shift in Market Approach
30:15 The Importance of Market Understanding
32:05 Navigating the Competitive Landscape
33:32 The Power of Buyer Enablement
34:32 The Role of Interactive Demos
36:50 The Future of Interactive Demos
39:22 The Impact of Interactive Demos on Sales
41:13 The Fragmentation of the Interactive Demo Market
44:05 The Integration of Sales and Product Analytics
48:50 The Future of Marketing in a Product-Led World
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Teresa Torres offers a rare sneak peek behind the curtain of how she runs her business. How can you maximize your chances when you’re reaching out to people like us who have limited attention to go around?
What is our pricing strategy for what we do, and how did we come up with it? How does Teresa’s demand generation differ from Marty Cagan's or mine?
takeaways
Coaching should be a mutual investment of time and resources.Not all requests for help are equal; specificity matters.Sound Bites
"I charge a speaking fee to protect my energy.""Be brief when reaching out for help."Chapters
01:13 Understanding Introversion in a Social World
04:02 Setting Boundaries: The Challenge of Social Requests
08:15 The Value of Speaking Engagements and Energy Management
12:09 Crafting Effective Requests: The Importance of Specificity
15:27 Navigating the Landscape of Help Requests
20:30 Monetization and Value: Setting the Right Price
30:12 The Evolution of Pricing Strategies
37:19 Final Thoughts: The Importance of Investment in Coaching
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Why is it so difficult for most companies to shift gears after reaching product market fit? Why can’t we just keep doing what made us successful?
Francesca Cortesi shares with me insights on the difficult journey from finding product market fit to getting to an IPO. We particularly explore the details of Hemnet, a Swedish B2B2C SaaS marketplace and how they dealt with this challenge.
takeaways
Defending existing revenue becomes a priority as companies scale.Diluting your value proposition can occur when scaling too quickly.Sustainable growth should be prioritized over rapid expansion.Post-market fit requires speed within control and structured decision-making.Founders must transition from product-centric to organizational leadership roles.titles
From Market Fit to IPO: The Hemnet JourneyScaling Strategies for Product LeadersNavigating Growth Stages in Tech CompaniesThe Role of Innovation in Sustaining GrowthSound Bites
"It's a matter of taking down your ego.""Don't forget about your core product."Chapters
04:53 The Journey of Hemnet: From Startup to IPO
09:57 Navigating Company Growth Stages
14:57 The Importance of Innovation Post-IPO
20:09 Challenges of Scaling: CFO and CPO Perspectives
23:53 The Challenges of Scaling and Alignment
27:59 Mindset Shifts for Sustainable Growth
30:18 Navigating Post-Market Fit Dynamics
35:22 The Lottery Win: Managing Growth Expectations
39:34 Focus and Structure: Keys to Avoiding Pitfalls
44:27 B2B2C Dynamics: Balancing Customer Needs
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The pervasive issue of layoff anxiety in the tech industry, particularly in the wake of COVID-19, overvaluation and the rise of AI. Dr. Joan Palmiter explores with me the importance of networking and personal branding as essential tools for job security and career advancement.
Are multiple income streams and optionality realistic to mitigate the fear of job loss? How does personal career development overlap with product management? The significance of networking and communication skills and the evolving field of AI and how to adapt to it.
takeaways
70% of job seekers find opportunities through personal connections.It's important to be open and generous in networking efforts.Finding personal goals is crucial; not everything is monetizable.Continuous learning and adaptation are vital in the tech landscape.Sound Bites
"Don't stay in one lane; connect two lanes."Chapters
12:47 The Importance of Networking and Personal Branding
24:07 Exploring Optionality and Income Streams
26:10 Leveraging Product Management Skills in Diverse Fields
27:09 Finding Personal Goals: Money vs. Joy
28:31 The Importance of Passion in Career Success
30:34 Navigating Career Choices and Social Status
32:54 Building a Career Roadmap: Steps and Strategies
34:23 Overcoming Hurdles: Grit and Resilience in Career
37:18 The Art of Follow-Up: Networking and Communication Skills
41:00 Understanding AI: Getting Started in a New Field
46:28 The Future of AI: Learning and Adapting to Change
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The nuances of executive communication and the importance of building buy-in for ideas with Wes Kao. The role of credibility, understanding bandwidth in conversations, and strategies for framing discussions to enhance clarity and reduce cognitive load.
De-risking strategies to avoid surprises and the significance of celebrating good decision-making processes rather than just successful outcomes.
Takeaways
Working autonomously means communicating more, not less.Surprises in the workplace are generally unwelcome.Celebrate the process of good decision-making, not just results.Make your proposals easy for others to present.Communication should be proactive, not reactive.Chapters
01:51 Introduction to Wes Cowell and His Journey
02:51 Obsession vs. Discipline in Achieving Success
06:30 The Art of Executive Communication
07:51 Building Buy-In for Ideas
11:10 The Role of Credibility in Communication
15:24 Understanding Bandwidth in Conversations
19:34 Framing Conversations for Clarity
22:22 Reducing Cognitive Load in Communication
27:31 Cross-Functional Communication Strategies
30:51 Effective Communication in Leadership
34:06 De-risking Proposals and Feedback Loops
39:38 Celebrating Good Decisions Over Results
44:10 The Importance of Rigorous Thinking
54:30 Preparing Others for Success in Presentations
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Kristi Faltorusso, a CS executive and coach, joins me in this high-energy conversation about customer success-assisted onboarding, alignment, and the dreaded realities of cross-functional working with product & sales.
We explore effective onboarding strategies, the importance of aligning customer success with product development, and the necessity of quantifying challenges faced by customer success teams.
What’s the importance of defining effective KPIs for customer success, focusing on leading indicators rather than lagging ones? How DO we measure customer happiness? Is the NPS as useless as I believe it is?
takeaways
Onboarding strategies must focus on delivering value quickly by measuring time to value.Consultative approaches to customer success add significant value.Customer success teams often act as advocates for product improvements.Focus on leading indicators for customer success.Customer segmentation should be based on use cases, not just size.Chapters
04:45 Understanding Customer Success and Onboarding Strategies
09:48 The Role of Customer Success in Product Development
14:50 Bridging the Gap Between Customer Success and Product Teams
19:56 Quantifying Customer Success Challenges and Solutions
23:41 Understanding Product Impact on Business Metrics
28:19 Defining Effective KPIs for Customer Success
33:06 Measuring Customer Engagement and Value
38:07 The Myth of Customer Happiness
43:11 Data-Driven vs. Data-Informed Decisions
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Founder-led sales done well has a lot of power especially in product-led companies. Tadas Labudis shares his experiences with founder-led sales and how it helped him build confidence in the product and himself.
How to embrace your vulnerabilities and the importance of leaving a positive impression in sales interactions while getting insights you would never get just by looking at data.
How to balance product-led growth with effective sales strategies before its too late.
takeaways
Sales can be enjoyable once you find your own style.Calculated risks in entrepreneurship are often misunderstood as reckless.Product-led growth can coexist with sales-led strategies.The definition of product growth is evolving. Founder-led sales is crucial for early-stage startups.Hiring salespeople too early can be risky.Sound Bites
"I learned to enjoy sales.""Entrepreneurship is not as risky as it seems.""You cannot hurry your clients.""Sales is about refining the ICP and messaging.""Product-led growth is about cost efficiency."Chapters
03:09 Understanding Risk in Entrepreneurship
05:59 The Psychology of Product Development
08:48 Balancing Product-Led and Sales-Led Approaches
12:06 Navigating Early Sales Challenges
14:52 The Importance of Customer Retention
18:11 Building a Product That Sells Itself
21:00 The Role of Paid Pilots in Sales
23:57 Leaving a Lasting Impression in Sales
27:36 The Power of Founder-Led Sales
30:26 Misconceptions About Sales and Selling Styles
33:16 The Importance of Personal Sales Experience
36:19 Leveraging Sales Insights for Product Development
43:01 Refining Messaging and Understanding Customer Expectations
48:03 Balancing Product-Led Growth and Sales Strategies
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Maranda Dziekonski on the evolving landscape of customer success, the importance of driving value for customers, and owning revenue outcomes for a function that traditionally never has. Like product.
Why the traditional role is shifting to a more integrated approach and how this works when “the sale never ends”
We discuss the complexities of customer success, the impact of budget constraints on customer retention, and the importance of understanding customer churn.
What it means to build around mission-critical services and having the correct timing to introduce customer success to a company. How does sales compensation integrate with customer success actions and how can we transition customers smooth between sales and customer success?
What do “Head of” titles mean if anything?
Without a doubt one of my favorite episodes I have ever recorded.
takeaways
The role of customer success is evolving to include revenue ownership.Customer success can be seen as an extension of sales but with a different approach.The sale never truly ends; it's an ongoing relationship.Customer success leaders need to demonstrate their impact on revenue.Customer success should be integrated into product development.Sales compensation should align with customer success goals.Sound Bites
"Own revenue outcomes.""The sale never ends.""A ‘head of’ is a lawyer for their function."Chapters
06:46 The Evolution of Customer Success
13:48 Revenue Ownership in Customer Success
19:57 The NPS Debate: Metrics and Insights
28:21 Understanding Customer Churn and Budget Constraints
31:08 The Role of Customer Success in B2B SaaS
33:59 When to Introduce Customer Success Management
36:14 Sales Compensation and Customer Success Integration
39:37 The Importance of Smooth Handoffs in Customer Success
40:34 Connecting Product Usage Data to Sales
45:22 Navigating Titles: Head of vs. VP in Organizations
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What is driving a company's value in 2024? How do we identify and copy trends that work until they don’t anymore? Why is product-led growth no longer a differentiator but becoming a table stake fast?
Why is everyone suddenly providing a pipeline from product, marketing, sales, and customer success while the only way that most companies measure pipeline is through Marketing and their MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads)? Why does this old model not work anymore?
takeaways
Demand comes from various sources, but visibility is lacking.MQLs are often an arbitrary measure of lead quality.Valuations in the market are not always reflective of true value.Building a sustainable company requires a focus on customer conversion. MQLs often lead to inefficient marketing practices.Sound Bites
"There's very little visibility into what's actually working.""MQLs are an arbitrary definition of leads.""It's very spray and pray-oriented."Chapters
04:56 The Evolution of Growth Strategies
10:01 The Dichotomy of Product-Led and Sales-Led Growth
15:05 The Importance of Founders and Team Dynamics
19:54 The Future of CRM and Data Integration
25:07 Rethinking MQLs and Sales Incentives
27:30 Rethinking MQLs: A New Approach to Marketing
30:55 Defining Success: The Role of ICPs in MQLs
34:41 The Interplay of Marketing, Sales, and Customer Success
39:42 Navigating Customer Journeys: The Role of Support
44:03 The Future of Investment: AI and Market Dynamics
49:10 The Evolution of Inbound Marketing: Finding New Channels
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Vincent Pierri interviews me (Leah Tharin) about my journey into public speaking, particularly within the tech industry. How I found a platform, overcame stage fright, and built confidence. How does it feel to speak to different audience sizes?
How do you train this muscle? And where do memes fit into our dry tech industry? Why is building a brand such a painful experience due to the needed consistency,
Interview conducted by Vincent Pierri 🙏 (Public Speaking Voice Coach), who offered his time to generously donate his time to turn me into a guest for once about a topic I don’t specifically talk about.
Takeaways
Different audience sizes require different speaking strategies.Feedback loops are essential for improving public speaking skills.Humor can be a powerful tool in public speaking.Consistency is key in building an online presence.Having a unique point of view is essential for engagement.Rising recognition can lead to a more isolated experience.
"Public speaking is not just in the public.""You should not be a senior leader if you cannot speak well."
Sound BitesChapters
02:45 The Journey into Public Speaking
09:11 The Importance of Content and Delivery
12:00 Navigating Different Audience Sizes
14:53 The Role of Feedback in Public Speaking
18:10 The ROI of Public Speaking for Tech Leaders
20:52 Crafting Effective Presentations
26:52 Gary: The Memorable Character from Sales
29:50 Preparing for Talks and Finding Your Voice
38:14 The Value of Podcasting
42:02 Navigating LinkedIn for Audience Building
47:01 The Pain of Personal Branding
51:49 The Journey of a D-List Celebrity
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Learnings from the transition from B2C to B2B in the fintech space focus on what can be carried over and what not. Forming behavioral habits and the challenges of building a sustainable business model while addressing the social determinants of financial health were just a few topics in this fascinating episode I recorded with Erin Papworth.
The complexities of navigating the B2B sales landscape suddenly after selling to individuals.
takeaways
“The core concept was how can we get people to do something for less than three minutes a day around their finances.”The shift from B2C to B2B requires different strategies.Internal tools often fail to meet market needs.Navigating the complexities of B2B sales is a learning process.Chapters
06:00 Innovative Approaches to Financial Health
11:48 Engagement Strategies in Fintech
18:12 The Human Connection in Financial Services
24:06 Building a Sustainable Business Model
27:22 Financial Stress and Mental Health Nexus
30:39 Challenges in Internal Tooling for HR
32:31 Pivoting from B2C to B2B Strategies
36:03 Data-Driven Insights for HR
40:56 Navigating the B2B Sales Landscape
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The importance of vision, careful pivots, and the balance between innovation and optimization.
Her concept of a vision is, to me, one of the very few that I think is actually cutting through the noise and has an impact aside from the cookie-cutter frameworks we had so far.
It’s beyond processes over mere goal-setting in achieving long-term success in startups.
takeaways
Pivots should be treated as silver bullets, used deliberately.A strong vision can save not just a product line but also sanity.Innovation should not be sacrificed for optimization.Processes should be prioritized over mere goal-setting for better outcomes.Chapters
17:28 The Importance of Vision in Startups
36:54 Aligning Teams Through Vision and Strategy
51:26 Balancing Innovation and Optimization
01:02:17 The Role of Processes Over Goals
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We discuss the complexities of change management, the importance of direct communication, and the evolving dynamics of workplace relationships vs in the past. How to build trust within teams, the significance of clarity in roles, and the challenges of hiring in today's market, particularly for executive positions.
What’s the difference between really good leaders and bad managers?
Takeaways
Change management should simplify processes, not complicate themWorkplace dynamics are influenced by external advice.Hiring should focus on long-term vision and fit.Leadership requires balancing urgency with pragmatism.Sound Bites
"People are getting too much of their work advice from TikTok."Chapters
02:55 The Art of Direct Communication
05:50 Navigating Workplace Dynamics
09:07 Building Trust in Teams
11:55 The Evolution of Work Structures
14:48 Effective Team Management
18:05 The Importance of Clarity in Roles
24:04 Hiring for the Future
26:54 The Role of Leadership in Change
30:01 The Challenge of Executive Hiring
33:13 The Impact of AI on Recruitment
36:02 Networking in Today's Job Market
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The dynamics of leadership in product management, the importance of a low-hierarchy organization, the challenges of founder mode, and the balance between control and empowerment.
Data in product management, the limitations of traditional tools, and the future of product management with AI.
Takeaways
Founders often struggle with letting go of control.Micromanagement can be necessary but should be balanced with empowerment.Traditional product management tools often fall short in meeting modern needs.AI will transform the way product management operates.Unshipping features is essential for product evolution.Sound Bites
"Ego should really never play a role here.""I never make any decisions here alone.""There's nobody more incentivized to make this whole thing work than the founders."Chapters
03:12 The Journey of AirFocus
05:59 Navigating Founder Mode and Micromanagement
09:13 Balancing Control and Empowerment
11:59 The Role of Data in Product Management
14:53 Challenges of Traditional Product Management Tools
18:03 The Future of Product Management with AI
20:55 Empowering Engineers in Product Development
23:49 Unshipping Features and Product Evolution
27:03 Connecting Sales and Product Management
29:51 The Importance of Customer Insights
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Summary
The branding experts Shannon Deep and Kevin Lee dig into exploring the multifaceted nature of brand measurement and strategy.
Misconceptions surrounding brands and risks associated with brand decisions, the importance of aligning brand strategy with business goals, and the challenges faced by founder-led brands in maintaining their identity.
What does marketing look like in the future? Where does product marketing sit?
Takeaways
Many senior leaders conflate brand with just design and visuals.Brand is an additional filtering mechanism for attracting the right customers.Measuring brand effectiveness can be complex but is crucial for growth.Founder-led brands face unique challenges in separating their identity from the company.Brand marketing is becoming increasingly important in the current business landscape.You can measure brand through various metrics, including share of search and brand awareness.Sound Bites
"Brand is the sum total of all experiences."Chapters
07:31 Understanding Brand Beyond Visuals
14:41 Navigating Brand Decisions and Risks
22:46 The Role of Brand in Business Strategy
30:43 Measuring Brand Effectiveness
37:28 The Challenge of Founder-Led Brands
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