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Special Episode: Psychology for Human Animal Intergroup relations. PHAIR 2025 Register! Transcript
Guests: Dr Matti Wilks is a Lecturer in the Department of Psychology at the University of Edinburgh. She completed her PhD at the University of Queensland, Australia, and was a postdoctoral fellow at Princeton and Yale Universities. She is generally interested in morality and related things. Her research mostly focuses on the moral circle and moral development, with a particular focus on moral concern for distant others (distant people, non-human animals, AI) and the motivations of unusually altruistic individuals. She also examines perceptions of AI, attitudes towards cultured meat, and the natural-is-better bias.
Dr Luke McGuire is a Senior Lecturer in the Department of Psychology at the University of Exeter. His research focuses on social and moral development, with a particular focus on development in middle childhood and adolescence across a range of contexts where moral concerns conflict with social norms. Most recently, his research has come to focus on childrenâs and adolescentsâ moral judgments about the treatment of non-human animals. This work has been published in Trends in Cognitive Sciences, Child Development, and Social Psychological and Personality Science.
Book Recommendations
Matti's Rec: The Ethics of What We Eat: Why Our Food Choices Matter by Peter Singer and Jim Mason
Luke's Rec: Dispossessed by Ursula Le Guinn
Other Conference Coverage (first episodes):
34: Aggression in Dogs Conference Mini-Series: with Michael Shikashio, CDBC Part 1
58: Emerging Voices For Animals in Tourism Conference Miniseries (Part 1): Animal Experience International with Nora Livingstone
94. Rapid Environmental Change with Dr. Rachel Blakey and Dr. Kasey Fowler-Finn (S10)
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Episode 6 of the series: Sex and Animals Transcript
Dr. Jonathan Balcombe elaborates on the nuanced distinctions between consciousness and sentience, emphasizing that emotions and feelings play crucial roles in animals' daily lives, much like in humans.
Guest: Dr. Jonathan Balcombe is a biologist and ethologist whose work has reshaped how we think about animal consciousness and behavior. Born in England and raised in New Zealand and Canada, he spent decades in the U.S. before settling in southern Ontario, where he balances his scientific pursuits with a love for biking, baking, birding, and observing the ever-mysterious squirrels in his neighborhood.
Jonathan has authored five popular science books, including What a Fish Knows, Pleasurable Kingdom, and Super Fly, bringing compelling research on animal intelligence and emotion to a wide audience. His contributions extend beyond writingâhe has published over 60 scientific papers, led academic departments, and worked as an editor, shaping conversations on animal sentience and protection. Jonathan works as an independent author, and performs editing services for aspiring and established authors. More...
Book Recommendation: Watership Down by Richard Adams
Related Episodes: 116. Creative Courtship: Lessons from Animal Others with Author, Dr. Carol Gigliotti (S13)
112. A Very Banksy Roundtable with Claudia Hirtenfelder and Shannon Johnstone
115. The Genitalia Arms Race! with Dr. Patty Brennan
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Episode 5 of Series 13: Sex and Animals Transcript
The spaying and neutering of dogs has often been a controversial topic. Along with the world renowned, Dr. Stanley Coren, the episode explores how spaying and neutering might affect canine behavior, questioning common practices and suggesting alternative approaches.
Guest Bio: Stanley Coren, PhD, DSc, FRSC, is an influential voice in the study of canine behavior and human-canine interactions. He served as a psychology professor at the University of British Columbia, where he directed the Human Neuropsychology and Perception Laboratory until his retirement in 2007.
Coren has published over 1,000 articles and 40 books, many of which have become bestsellers. His award-winning contributions to canine studies, such as How to Speak Dog, have been translated into more than 30 languages and recognized globally.
He continues to share insights on canine behavior through his blog, Canine Corner, on Psychology Today's website. Further information is available on Wikipedia.
Book Recommendations: Dogs Demystified: An A-to-Z Guide to All Things Canine by Dr. Marc Bekoff and King Solomon's Ring by Konrad Lorenz
Related Episodes: 81: Expanding Understanding in Canine Behavior Evaluations with Suzanne Clothier (Part 1) S8
82: Expanding Understanding in Canine Behavior Evaluations with Suzanne Clothier (Part 2) S8
84: How To Build a Bond With a New Dog with Stacey Colino and Jen Golbeck (December Special!)
67: May Special!: Barking Up the Right Tree: Applied Etho
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Special Episode!
" it seems to me that development could be as revolutionary as the domestication of animals itself 10, 000 years ago." - Dr. Shapiro
Technology's role in animal advocacy and science takes center stage. Lab-grown meat and alternatives to animal testing, such as organs on a chip, are highlighted as transformative developments that could profoundly reduce animal exploitation.
Guest Bio: Dr. Kenneth Shapiro is cofounder and President of the Board of Animals and Society Institute, and founding editor of Society and Animals and other human-animal studies publications. With a BA from Harvard in American Studies and a PhD in Clinical and Personality Psychology from Duke, his work spans vegetarianism, animal advocacy, and critiques of lab research. Heâs published books, including Animal Models of Human Psychology (1998), and guides on treating animal abuse. Based in Washington Grove, MD, he tends to a bluebird trail, a pollinator meadow, and enjoys vegan cooking. Learn more at animalsandsociety.org.
Book Recommendation: Abundant Earth: Toward an Ecological Civilization by Eileen Crist
Related Episodes: 93: Human Relevant Testing: A Conversation on Enhancing Human Health and Animal Welfare with Dr. Aysha Akhtar (S9)
43: October Special! The Beagle Project with Lindsey Hamrick, HSUS
E21: Spring Special! Hal Herzog: On the the Past, Present, and Future of Anthrozoology
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Episode 4 of series 13: Sex and Animals Transcript
Being a researcher thoroughly acquainted with the Shackleford Banks horses during her PhD, she was uniquely positioned to investigate the behavioral changes noticed by the National Park Service when they introduced contraceptive management. This intervention aimed to control the horse population to protect the island's endangered plants and animals that were being impacted by overgrazing.
Guest Bio: Dr. Cassandra Nunez is interested in the effects of wildlife management practices on target speciesâ behavior and physiology, and how these patterns can better inform management and advance basic knowledge of the linkages among animal behavior, physiology, and the surrounding ecology.
As human populations continue to grow, the management of wildlife species is becoming increasingly necessary. As stewards of wild populations, we have a responsibility to manage them with the most effective and ethical means possible.
My research suggests that if we are to achieve this goal, we must better understand the potential individual- and population-level side-effects of our management practices. I incorporate the natural history, behavioral ecology, and the physiology of species to better understand these issues, to more effectively conserve and manage animal populations, and to better understand the basic biology of organisms.
Book Recommendations: An Immense World by Ed Yong and Are We Smart Enough to Know How Smart Animals Are? by Frans de Waal
Related Episodes: 99. Reintroductions and Management with Dr Liz Peterson, Dr. Julie Young, and Dr. Rachel Chock (S10)
97. Urbanization and Industrialization (It's Effects on Behavior and Cognition) with Dr. Kathleen Church and Dr. Lauren Stanton (S10)
94. Rapid Environmental Change with Dr. Rachel Blakey and Dr. Kasey Fowler-Finn (S10)
E15: The History of the Conservation Movement with Author and Journalist, Michelle Nijhuis
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Episode 3 of Series 13, Sex and Animals
Renowned as a feminist, vegan advocate, and author, Carol J. Adams, brings us into the intricate relationship between these movements in a fascinating conversation that reveals cultural narratives reinforcing gender norms and animal consumption.
Guest Bio: Carol J. Adams is a feminist scholar and activist whose work explores the cultural construction of overlapping and interconnected oppressions, as well as the ethics of care. In December 2024, Adamsâs iconic The Sexual Politics of Meat: A Feminist-Vegan Critical Theory, will appear in a 35th anniversary edition.
Her articles have appeared in the New York Times, the Washington Post, Ms. Magazine, Tikkun, and Truthdig, among others. She has been an activist against sexual violence, racism, and homelessness, and for reproductive justice and fair housing
www.caroljadams.comBook Recommendation: The Sexual Politics of Meat - 35th Anniversary Edition by Carol J. Adams and "A good Vegan Cookbook"- Try this... The Free Celebrity Veganuary Cookbook!
Related Episodes: 86: Can Dog Cuddling Influence Reduced Meat Consumption? Care Ethics with Dr. Maurice Hamington (S9)
104. Exploring Hinduism, Dairy & Mother Cow with Yamini Narayanan (Featured Ep.66/S7)
64: Animals in World Religions with Author, Dr. Lisa Kemmerer (S7)
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Episode 2 of Series 13, Sex and Animals: Transcript
"Creativity is all about problem solving." - Dr. Gigliotti
Guest Bio: Carola Gigliotti is an author, artist, animal activist, and scholar whose work focuses on the reality of animalsâ lives as important contributors to the biodiversity of this planet. She is Professor Emerita of Design and Dynamic Media and Critical and Cultural Studies at the Emily Carr University of Design, Vancouver, BC. CANADA
To connect with Carol: https://www.facebook.com/carol.gigliotti, @carolgigliotti.bsky.social, https://carolgigliotti.com/dir/
Book Recommendation: The Emotional Lives of Animals (revised): A Leading Scientist Explores Animal Joy, Sorrow, and Empathy â and Why They Matter by Marc Bekoff
Related Episodes: 113. The Animal Turn Crossover ...with Carol Gigliotti and Claudia Hirtenfelder (S12)
105. What Can Animals Tell Us About Ancient Egypt? with PhD, Linda Evans (S12: Animals in Art and Culture)
47: Expressions of Emotion in Animals with Dr. Mariska Kret (S6)
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Episode 1 of Series 13 Transcript
In this episode, Dr. Patricia Brennan explores the evolutionary battles between male and female genital adaptations, revealing how animals like ducks and dolphins develop complex reproductive strategies. Through her work, she highlights the surprising ways that nature grants females reproductive autonomy despite intense sexual conflict.
Guest Bio: Dr. Patricia Brennan is an evolutionary biologist specializing in reproductive anatomy and sexual selection, with research spanning birds, snakes, bats, dolphins, and sharks. Originally from Colombia, she earned her undergraduate degree in Marine Biology and conducted marine mammal research around the GalĂĄpagos before shifting her focus to birds during her PhD at Cornell University. Her groundbreaking work on avian genitalia has expanded to broader studies on genital coevolution, exploring how reproductive structures evolve in response to mating strategies. Now based in Amherst, MA, she continues to lead innovative research, currently supported by an NSF Career Grant to study genital evolution in snakes.
Book Recommendations: Vagina Obscura: An Anatomical Voyage by Rachel Gross and Bitch: On the Female of the Species by Lucy Cooke
Related Episodes: E22: Ecofeminism and Entangled Empathy with Lori Gruen
93: Human Relevant Testing: A Conversation on Enhancing Human Health and Animal Welfare with Dr. Aysha Akhtar (S9)
57: Valentines Special!: Furry Fandom with Victoria Gersdorf
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Special Episode! Transcript
Dr. Amy Shroffâs work focuses on implementing sustainable solutions for managing stray animal populations globally through the TNVR methodâTrap, Neuter, Vaccinate, and Release.âThe goal is not just rescuing animals, but teaching communities how to manage their stray populations humanely, ensuring long-term solutions for both the animals and the people they live with.â- Dr. Amy Shroff
Guest Bio:
Dr. Amy Shroff is a veterinarian, founder of Let's Save the Strays International, and a passionate advocate for the humane management of stray animal populations. She specializes in the TNVR approach, helping marginalized animals in countries such as Thailand, Ukraine, and beyond. Dr. Shroff has worked internationally to improve stray animal welfare, reducing human-animal conflict while promoting sustainable solutions for overpopulation.
Guest Book Recommendation: The Hummingbird's Gift by Sy Montgomery
Related Episodes:
Episode 74: On The Move: Exploring Companion Animal Transport with Dr. Lori Jervis (S8)
Episode 63: EVAT Mini-series (Part 6): Free-Living Cats and Farm Animal Sanctuaries a Round Table with Kris Hill and Dr. Jacqui Sadashige
Episode 49: The Culture of Free Living Dogs with Sindhoor Pangal (S6)
Episode18: Breaking stereotypes and talking about cats with The Trap King, Sterling DavisSupport the show
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What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my â â â â Podcast Mentoring Servicesâ â â â !
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In series 13 we will be covering topics from The Sexual Politics of Meat with Carol J. Adams to The Genitalia Arms Race with Dr. Patricia Brennan.
This series is going to be unexpected, mind blowing, and above all, fascinating! Learn everything you didn't know you wanted to know about Sex and Animals... and possibly a little you didn't want to know as well.
Series starts February 24th- follow on your podcasting listening platform, or sign up for the TDWA Newsletter at www.thedealwithanimals.comSupport the show
Show Creditsâ â â ââ â â â Read the Blog! (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!)
What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my â â â â Podcast Mentoring Servicesâ â â â !
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Episode 7 of Series 12, Animals in Art and Culture Transcript
A Crossover Special! This is a fascinating conversation between Claudia Hirtenfelder and Carol Gigliotti from The Animal Turn podcast. They discuss Gigliotti's groundbreaking book 'The Creative Lives of Animals,' which explores animal creativity, cognition, and agency.
Be sure to catch the previous episode with Claudia as a guest on TDWA for a round table discussion with Marika and artist, Shannon Johnstone about Banksy's 2024 "London Zoo Series"
Please remember to review and follow!Support the show
Show Creditsâ â â ââ â â â Read the Blog! (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!)
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Episode 6 of Series 12: Animals in Art and Culture Transcript
Guests: Claudia Towne Hirtenfelder began the Animal Turn in February 2020 as a culmination of her interests in animals, ethics, and media.She completed her PhD in Geography at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario. Her scholarly interests sit in the intersection of geography, urban studies, animal studies, history and power relations.
Claudia is the founder and former host of Beyond Canada: International Thought and Scholarship. You can find Claudia on Twitter (@ClaudiaFTowne)
Mary Shannon Johnstone received her BFA from The School of the Art Institute of Chicago, and MFA in photography from Rochester Institute of Technology.
She is the recipient of numerous awards including "Pause, To Begin" artist, Critical Mass Top 50 (2009, 2010), and Honorable Mention in Lens Culture's 2010 International Exposure Awards. Johnstone is a tenured Associate Professor at Meredith College in NC
Book Recommendations: Claudia's Recommendations- Beyond Words by Cark Safina and What a Fish Knows: The Inner Lives of Our Underwater Cousins by Jonathan Balcombe
Shannon's Recommendation- We Animals by Jo-Anne Mcarthur.
The London Exhibition Review- MyArtBroker.comSupport the show
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A delightful exploration of chickens as intelligent and complex creatures, prompting us to reconsider our perceptions of these common animals.
December Special! with Author Sy Montgomery Transcript
Guest: Sy Montgomery is a celebrated naturalist, author, and adventurer whose work has taken her to some of the wildest places on Earth. The Boston Globe described her as "Part Indiana Jones and Part Emily Dickenson". With 38 books to her name, including The Soul of an Octopus, The Good Good Pig, and now, What a Chicken Knows, Montgomery has won numerous awards for her writing. She continues to inspire readers of all ages by exploring the profound connections between humans and animals at a critical moment for our planet's future.
Book Recommendations: Exodus: Book 2-The Bible by Someone who was there?
(I don't think you need a link for this one) But her reason for choosing this one is apropos.
Other Links:
What a Chicken Knows by Sy Montgomery
Animal Liberation by Peter SingerSupport the show
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Episode 5 of Series 12: Animals in Art and Culture Transcript
Sukey Molloy, an acclaimed children's performer and author. We delve into Sukey's work, particularly focusing on her storytelling album, 'The Adventures of Little Stubby,' which features a miniature donkey named Stubby.Sukey discusses her inspiration from real-life rescue stories and her goal to help young children navigate their emotions through animal characters.
Guest: Trained as a professional modern dancer in New York City, Sukey Molloy performed and toured as a member of the Solomonâs Company Dance and went on to study developmental movement and Kidnastics with former Olympian, Garland OâQuinn, Ph.D., and infant development with Bonnie Bainbridge Cohen. Sukeyâs work in âmovement skill development through guided playâ has led her to design and teach music and movement programs for infants, toddlers, nursery schools, after-school programs, elementary schools, and with her own Nyack, NY-based PlayMove&Sing Inc. company. Sukeyâs work is the recipient of multiple awards, most recently the NAPPA award for her new storytelling album, The Adventures of Little Stubby.
Find Sukeyâs music and stories on Spotify, Amazon, YouTube and more! And visit Sukey at www.sukeymolloy.com
Book Recommendation: Running With Sherman : the donkey with the heart of a hero by Christopher McDougall
Other Linkshttps://www.littlelongears.org/
https://www.pasadosafehaven.org/
Wonky Donkey VideoSupport the show
Show Creditsâ â â ââ â â â Read the Blog! (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!)
What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my â â â â Podcast Mentoring Servicesâ â â â !
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Episode 4 of Series 12: Animals in Art and Culture Transcript
What can Aboriginal and Bengali literature teach us about our connection with nature? Join Dr. Dipanwita Pal on our podcast as she shares her fascinating research into these cultural narratives. This episode is a compelling look into how stories reflect and influence our relationships with the animal world. Tune in for an enlightening discussion!
Guest: Dr Dipanwita Pal is an Associate Professor in English at Galsi Mahavidyalaya, West Bengal, India. Her Ph. D. thesis is based on the ecocritical study of the works of the first Australian Aboriginal poet Oodgeroo Noonuccal. She has edited Ecofeminism and Allied Issues, Exploring the Coexistence of the Humans and the Nonhumans within Literary Text. She has a number of papers published in various national and international journals. She is the recipient of the Scientist of the Year Award 2020 by IKSAD (The Institute of Economic Development and Social Researches), Turkey. Her areas of interest are gender studies, indigenous studies, ecocriticism, Australian literature, Indian English literature. She is the recipient of the IASA ER Travel Fellowship to Australia 2024.Support the show
Show Creditsâ â â ââ â â â Read the Blog! (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!)
What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my â â â â Podcast Mentoring Servicesâ â â â !
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Episode 3 of Series 12: Animals in Art and Culture Transcript
We discuss the emotional depth and significance of Meade's collaborations with artists and photographers, highlighting themes of animal welfare and exploitation.
Guest: Gordon Meade is a Scottish poet, based in the East Neuk of Fife. He is the author of twelve collections of poetry including, most recently,EX-Posed: Animal Elegies (Lantern Publishing & Media 2023), In Transit (Enthusiastic Press 2022) and Zoospeak (Enthusiastic Press 2020). At present, he is completing a new collection, The Resurrectionists, which looks at the ethical issues surrounding De-extinction from the perspective of a number of more-than-human animals. Later this year, he will be giving a reading, and hosting a creative writing workshop, at the Anthrozoology as International Practice: Student Conference in Human-Animal Studies,17-19 November 2024 Online
Book Recommendation: Poetry in the Making by Ted Hughes
Other Links: Exposed by Gordon MeadeSupport the show
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What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my â â â â Podcast Mentoring Servicesâ â â â !
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" If you see the ghost of your dog, it can make you better and that should be okay. It shouldn't be something that we say is a problem." - Jen Golbeck
October Special! Transcript
Dive into the world of supernatural pet encounters, as we discuss the psychological and anthropological perspectives on ghostly visits from deceased pets. The conversation explores the complexities of grief, especially disenfranchised grief, and the comfort people find in these encounters. This episode also examines the cultural significance of ghost pets and the role of continuing bonds in coping mechanisms.
Guest: Jen Golbeck is the âinternetâs dog momâ and creator of the social media sensation The Golden Ratio. A professor at the University of Marylandâs College of Information Studies, she is a popular science communicator on issues related to her research on social media and dogs. Her TED Talks have been viewed by millions and she is a popular keynote speaker who has appeared on NPR, The 11th Hour, and more. Her writing has appeared in Slate, The Atlantic, Psychology Today, and Wired. She and her husband rescue golden retrievers who are senior or who have special medical needs and give them a safe and comfortable life. Find out more at JenGolbeck.com
Book Recommendation: House of Leaves by Mark Z. Danielewski
1:17 Guest Introduction02:37 Anthropological Research on Ghost Dogs
05:07 Types of Supernatural Experiences with Pets
07:50 Psychological Insights on Grief and Ghosts
09:51 Challenging Traditional Views on Grief
19:08 Exploring Unique Ghost Dog Stories
20:56 Interdisciplinary Perspectives on the Supernatural
25:40 The Final Three Questions
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"If there's anything that will make people think twice and reflect it would be have stories and poems like this."- Natasha Matsaert
Ep 2, series 12: Animals in Art and Culture Transcript
The episode features poetry and insights from a writing workshop, aimed at fostering empathetic connections and motivating change.
The discussion centers around the power of poetry and art in animal advocacy, particularly highlighting the National Animal Rights Day event. They explore how stories can inspire action, share writing tips! (Please be aware that this episode may not be appropriate for all audiences).
Guests: Julie Knopp is a writer and animal advocate based in St. Paul, Minnesota. Julieâs writing has been featured in HuffPost, New York Daily News, Minneapolis Star Tribune, and other prominent media outlets. Julie holds a Master of Arts in Teaching and enjoys teaching change-makers how they can use writing and media strategy to advance their cause. To learn more about Julie, visit julieknopp.com.
Natasha Matsaert
Book Recommendations: The Cow with Ear Tag #1389 by Kathryn Gillespie
Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer
Other Links: https://www.startribune.com/article/600284345/
https://hemingwayapp.com/Support the show
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"Yeah, what is the deal with animals? I think, mulling this over, and what I keep coming back to in my mind is they are magic made manifest." -Linda Evans, PhD.
Part 1, Series 12: Animals in Art and Culture Transcript
In the captivating premiere of 'The Deal with Animals' Season 2. Discover how animals were depicted in Egyptian art, their cultural significance, and insights into animal behavior reflected through ancient tomb and temple scenes.
Don't forget to participate in the Women in Podcasting Awards by October 1st, where 'The Deal with Animals' is nominated!
Guest: Linda Evans is an Associate Professor in Egyptology in the Department of History and Archaeology at Macquarie University, Sydney. She studied Classical Studies and Psychology at the University of Adelaide in South Australia before working in the field of Biology at Washington University in St Louis, Missouri; Rockefeller University, New York; and the University of California, Davis. After returning to Australia, she completed both an MA and PhD in Egyptology at Macquarie. Drawing on her former career in Biology, her research focuses on the human-animal relationship in the ancient world, especially in the Egyptian context, in which she seeks a more accurate and nuanced understanding of ancient zoological knowledge and its application by prehistoric societies.
Her recent publications include descriptions of the animal-rich tomb paintings at the Egyptian cemetery site of Beni Hassan and new insights into the meaning and significance of Egyptian animal imagery, from pelicans and pigs to porcupines! She is currently completing a volume on the invertebrates of ancient Egypt for Lockwood Press.
Book Recommendations: My Family and Other Animals by Gerald Durrell, Comet in Moominland by Tove Jansson, and The Animal World of the Pharaohs by Patrick F. HoulihanChapters:
00:00 Ep. 105 What can Animals Tell us about Ancient Egypt? with PhD, Linda Evans (S12)
02:19 Introduction to Linda Evans and Ancient Egyptian Art
03:32 Exploring Ancient Egyptian Tomb Art
05:09 Animal Depictions and Their Significance
23:34 Linda's Discovery
34:40 The Role of Artists in Ancient Egypt
36:38 Exploring Invertebrates in Ancient Egyptian Art
40:06 Animals in Ancient Egyptian Culture and Personal Reflection
Support the show
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In Series Twelve of The Deal with Animals, we're exploring the way art and culture changes and reflects the way we understand and connect with other animals.
From ancient cave paintings to modern street art, animals have always held a special place in our creative expression.
But it's not just about the art. It's about the stories, the symbolism, and the connections that shape our world.
Join me and a lineup of incredible guests as we explore the animal side of art, uncovering the meanings behind every brushstroke, fable, and animal metaphor.
Whether you're an art lover, a history buff, or just curious about the world around you, Series 12, Animals in Art and Culture, will open your eyes to a whole new perspective on the human relationship with other animals.
And Don't forget to Vote by September 30th for the International Women In Podcasting AwardsSupport the show
Show Creditsâ â â ââ â â â Read the Blog! (Guest profiles, book recommendations, trailers and more!)
What to start your own podcast in he Animal Advocacy or Animal Welfare Space? Check out my â â â â Podcast Mentoring Servicesâ â â â !
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