Episodes
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I am exhausted, emotionally and otherwise... hey all, Dan here... just posted this last episode with calls from listeners, and a song at the end with a story that wraps into ViW... So, this is it. Thank you all. Check out virtueinthewasteland.com for where you can find us, now that the curtain has descended on this episode of our life. Make sure you check out Arnold Mitchem's "Drive" the song "Grace" is featured in this episode. Jeff will live on at @Taosurfers and its internet cognates. You can find me at 1517, my name dot com, doing the Soul of Christianity podcast... it's the future... you know how to find things on the internet... EGBOK
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So, if the title of the show doesn't give it away.... surprise! After 300+ weeks, 3 continents, dozens of states and hours of conversation, we are hanging up the microphones and turning the lights out on the ViW project. But, not without a bang. This is the second to last- we ask that you call the hotline at 844-393-0012 and leave a 60-second message as to what you learned while listening to the show. On this show we discuss the way forward, future plans and the big take away lessons for both of us, from thousands of hours of podcasting together. Listen up, give us a call (or leave a message on FB or Twitter) and THIS Thursday, Feb 14th we will drop our final show with your calls and questions.
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Missing episodes?
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Giving shows their titles is a funny thing. I’ve probably done 250 or so of them, and I rarely think much about it. Also, when I myself look for podcasts, all I care about is the title of the episode. The very thing I wasn’t paying attention to! Preposition! To which, I had not paid my attention. My attention bill was late…. you get it. So this title is descriptive, very descriptive. The kids might even call it descriptive AF, which I will pretend to know nothing about if asked. So you are going to hear us talking very specifically in this show about this one thing that might not sound that exciting: an imperial peace treaty. Well, it was called the “interim” so it didn’t expect to hang around much longer. It was also pegged with the location of Augsburg, the free imperial city that Charles V (Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, King of Spain and the Netherlands, and Austria. He was also kind of inbred, so that makes all of his stories a little weirder. Get this: his mom’s name was Juanita The Mad. Bad omen, homie. Nonetheless, Martin Luther had just died and Charles, Chucky 5, decided to put the hurt on the reeling Protestants and impose his will. And his will wasn’t that bad! He wanted to end the religious wears and call the Reformation over. A tie. We’ve got a grand idea to mix Catholics and Lutherans in a way that is sure to disappoint everyone! Today’s show is about that story, that peace treaty and goal for religious peace, and some observations on what we might have learned from this monumental historical event. Are their links? Nah, but you can always go to or or or Also, last week I wrote something at 1517 with you ViWers in mind- check it:
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I used to think it was really cool when people broke the 4th wall. You know, like, in Fight Club or the original Pink Panther when something happened to remind you that you were indeed watching a film reel. There is nothing as clever here, but a little twist which might make you take notice. Usually we banter for a few minutes, talk around the subject, and then dig in. Well, it seems to be only once every twenty years the Rams make the Super Bowl, so we spent some time talking about them, the game and a myriad of other things. But to get to those hot takes, you need to wade through the actual subject matter. I've moved that 30 minute conversation to the back of our first conversation about dutch radicals, the reformation and the enlightenment. And it is probably more interesting than you first think. We talk a lot about the Reformation and how it has shaped the modern world, but often we miss out on one really important link, the connection between the radical reformation, skepticism, and the modern age. We talk about the nature of radicalism, and why we all kind of gravitate towards it (and what it might teach us). Jeff talks about the Trinity. Dan throws out a few ideas which might lead to further questions. That's the whole point. Have those conversations with your friends and co-workers and family and church group. The point isn't that we come to something like a silly podcast with two professors for all our answers, or to confirm that they have the answers in the back ofd the book too, rather, it's that we start conversations and learn to talk about weighty things that matter with a bit of grace, a sense of humor, and the reminder that everything is going to be ok. P.s. Because of the way this show was edited, it can be the answer to a trivia question sometime in the future. The question is: is there a time, after ep 101, that the show didn't end with someone saying EGBOK? Yes, this one. Because I edited it,
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Sometimes our shows start with really simple ideas. For instance, one of us might think of something that would be relevant to the podcast and send the article, idea, etc… via text. We do a little reading, figure out what the “bigger story” at play is, and… voila. An hour and a half later, plus editing time (we sometimes do that!) and we’ve got another show. Ok, now you know how the generic sausage is made. This show, this sausage (?!) is al about the States of the Union. Having just completed a road trip, Dan being in the middle of his own personal California Renaissance, and Jeff having wandered the earth much of his life, the guys reflect on the nature of these United States with regards to state rankings, biases, federalism, and all of this with two dogs running around the studio. As we tell you in the beginning, this is a standard “let’s think through this together” show that involves postulating theses, changing them, rethinking them, and then coming together at the end of the show to discuss what we learned from the conversation. We go on a few tangents, edited a few, but this is a kind of “at home with Jeff and Dan” type show where they talk about their lives, their dogs, the really big questions, and perhaps a Super Bowl prediction or two…
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Time to clear out the old phone machine and respond to some of the more common, or curious questions we received. The first half hour of the show has us talking about 2019, Dan's favorite movies of the year, and reading a very revealing and honest email. the next hour is all your calls- a few notes: Dan says "American" when talking about a piece of music.... he misspoke, please replace that in your brain with "New World" Jeff would like you to see Dan says, "Look at " As always, this is a conversation that might resemble a late night conversation you had in college or might have with friends in a safe and welcoming environment. Everything is penultimate, God's not angry, and everything is going to be ok. Thank you for calling, or emailing, if we haven't responded to you, it is all Dan's fault. Some calls we edited for sound quality, or we combined two or three similar calls with one answer. We do not talk about the following, in any meaningful way: California Renaissance Mobbing A young man saying no thanks to a certain label The weird book of the Acts of the Apostles But we promise to, soon.
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Happy New Year! On today’s show we talk about the biggest and best of 2018 and what we might look forward to in 2019. It’s an episode with the two guys doing what they love most, chatting with each other about challenges in culture and the church. We decided to look at the “biggest” and “best” stories of 2018, with Jeff taking the “biggest” stories and Dan covering a few of the “best”. Thanks for your support in 2018, in our 5th year we continue to grow in listenership and opportunities to expand. Thank you also to those who have invited us out (together or individually) to give talks, spend time talking about important things, etc… check out the webpage, or the webpages of each of the guys (their names and a .com) to have them come out to you! Here’s just a few things we discuss on today’s show: The Monks of New Skete Kanye West Bad priests Bad elected officials The ozone Layer Net Neutrality Why we can’t seem to get along and argue so much Prohibition and Cannabis “Making a Murderer” and “The Innocent Man” Molech, and more….
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Little known fact: the original name of Virtue in the Wasteland was “Jeff and Dan’s Vanity Project to Explore Their Hobbies” but we decided to go a little more broad and talk about society and religion and stuff… Maybe that’s not exactly how it played out, but there is a funny bit of guilt we feel whenever we dive head first into a topic that is seemingly just tickling our fancy as mass entertainment and thus unworthy of critical reflection. But on this show we will argue that R.E.M. is not just one of our favorite bands, but the most important American band of all time. Sound hyperbolic? Check out the show and see if we can pull off the argument and join in on virtueinthewasteland.com We recorded this show from the RV somewhere between Athens, GA and Charlottesville, VA after our pilgrimage to the mecca of R.E.M. fan sites. We got to discussing the band, its evolution and role in 80’s and 90’s pop culture. On this show, which was recorded moths ago and feared lost until only a few days ago, we make the audacious argument that R.E.M. is the most significant rock band in U.S. history. 3 caveats: this is not “the best R.E.M. songs” podcast. In fact, if it was, it would suffer from being terribly mundane and uninventive as a “best of”. Doing that, using commercial success and air play to judge significance, would make this super lame and obvious. So the tracks we pick are the hits, but the ones that are indicative of the band, and tell us something about them and the society they reflected. Caveat # 2: There is a lot of music on this episode! About a minute or so of each song we talk about. Using all the actual music is allowed under the Fair Use Act, as we are playing it to comment on, and use for teaching purposes. In case you were concerned. Caveat #3 We do not discuss R.E.M. post New Adventures in Hi-Fi. This is not because we dislike later R.E.M. (listen to our show with Dave Zahl, he convinced us to give late R.E.M. more attention in our own lives. We could argue that R.E.M after New Adventures is a different band, as Bill Berry suffered an aneurysm on tour and retired, giving way to a rotating list of drummers and (unfortunately, in this case) drum machines. I have recently picked up an article I’ve been working on ,which ranks every R.E.M. song. Late R.E.M is well represented. On the Spotify list below, you can see some of our picks for post Hi-Fi R.E.M. songs.
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Andrew Syed (formerly Andrew Paquin) visited Jeff recently, during which time Dan was in Dallas related to the new 1517 Academy (check it out). Andrew was Jeff's colleague at a previous institution, until politics and conceptions of Christian political beliefs resulted in a controversy. Andrew and Jeff explore this backstory, which several news outlets picked up a decade ago. Andrew discusses the negative effects the events and how he sought healing through recognition of the long term effects of trauma.
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Christmas movies and carols and traditions and….. we could go on and on. And in fact, we have gone “on and on” for over 5 years now doing a special Christmas show. On today’s show the guys are back together again in the comfy confines of the ViW Irvine studios and it felt like old times. The thesis of today’s show is that the strange “thrill of hope” we all experience this time of year is no coincidence. In fact, we are not thoroughly entangled in any other holiday like we are Christmas. And while we might bemoan the commercialism, or creeping secularism (still not sure what that is, though) or stress, we might also recognize that our grocery store aisles are filled with the music proclaiming good news. While the general tenor of the yer can be rough and go-it-alone, this is the time of year when we soften, the time we become like a child again in the very season God deigned to do the same thing.
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I don’t have any naked baby photos. Frankly, I don’t have any baby photos. I blame either a house fire or parental indifference. Nonetheless, I wonder if I might not start subtitling my talks as “naked baby photos” not because there are, but because when I overshare, that’s the closest thing I can relate to how I’ll probably make you feel when I share publicly about my life. Like naked baby photos, they are harmless, but show you a side we don’t always put on display. As a matter of fact, you aren’t supposed to be hearing this talk! the deal was that it was only for those in the room. My wife convinced me to figure out a way to edit it in such a way to take out some detail which might frustrate a minor side story, but not the big picture. So, I took my editing fingers to my LogicPro X (the official editing software of ViW!) and I cut out some proper names. As I was editing it just now, I was listening to it and thinking, “dang, I shared quite a bit, maybe I should edit out that story that doesn’t make me look that good in retrospect” but I didn’t…. This isn’t the story of my delinquency, that’s just a side avenue where we see God at work shining some grace on me in Jesus. This is a talk about EGBOK (everything is going to be ok) and what it means. It’s the most in depth we’ve ever gone into that thing we say at the end of every show. If you are so inclined to want me to speak at your event, or you want to hear or read or watch more of me you can go to my website Check out Jeff (and listen to last week’s show wherein we play his HWSS talk) Oh. please go too and give, if you’re so inclined.
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From Here We Still Stand 2018: This is a talk with Jeff blowing up any ideas of works righteousness and refuses to settle with a message that’s just another doctrine to keep straight or moral code to live up to. Maybe you’re a bear, maybe you’re a butterfly, listen to this talk and it will make sense.
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David Zahl leads Mockingbird Ministries and has a forthcoming book about secular religion and self-righteousness in America. We talk virtue signaling, popular music, Bob Dylan's Christian era, and Charlottesville, VA. Pre-order Dave's book ! virtueinthewasteland.com
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So, this show was a long time coming. Since earlier in this year we had been playing phone and email tag with student filmmaker Jessica van der Wyngaard regarding her new documentary project that chronicles the lives of those influenced by Josh Harris, for good or ill. The first interveiw is a conversation with the filkmmaker- an Autralian, living in Canada, making a film about a largely American phenomenon. van der Wyngaard was engaging and willing to take on the critics of her project. Meanewhile, Josh Harris seemed reluctant to make, or talk about the film, and in our interveiw today, you may learn why. Check out the film here: https://www.isurvivedikdg.com
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On this weeks episode we welcome back an old guest of the show: Emily Joy. Since last being on our show, Emily Joy has contributed to Jeff's book Sexy as well as co-founded the #churchtoo movement and has become something of a lightning rod for issues of abuse in the church. We interviewed Emily Joy while travelling through Nashville, and when she had told us she had "changed since we last me", we weren't sure what to expect. Turns out she is the same poet, critic and artist just having raised the volume to 11. We got an opportunity to sit back and listen to her tell her story, and share her perspective amongst the chirping crickets in the warm Nashville evening. You can prepare to take notes, and challenge, and set the guest straight... wait, not on this show. We listen, and we would ask that you would do the same.
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On this weeks’ episode we take you back to the 2nd Annual Here We Still Stand conference in beautiful, if slightly milquetoast, San Diego (just kidding San Diego, we love you, as we have recorded at least once a year from your confines only to eventually praise your street food, socio-economic diversity and weather). Think of it as part of the road trip, as we recorded this show almost immediately upon returning from our road trip. Stay tuned in the next few weeks as we continue releasing those shows. On this live show we talk with Debi Winrich on her new podcast “the Soul of Christianity” as well as Dr. Russ McCullough from the Gwartney Institute to discuss his work on Christianity and Capitalism. If you’re still reading, cool. So we can get a little more serious. Not really serious, but just more familiar. This is Dan, I write in the third person plural sometimes, but usually it’s me. So.... hey. This conference was super rad and you will be hearing our talks (mine in some edited fashion) soon. But it was also crazy anxiety inducing for me as it could seem like a kind of intellectual fashion show for a specific type of religious speaker. I had initially thought that we were doing a show that a few people might watch, but not that we were doing an actual live program. You see, an hour or so of intellectual-and-otherwise chit chat isn’t that hard, but it’s also not a live performance. At any rate, I had an acting coach once tell me that the last thing you should do is apologize before a performance. What did she know, anyway? Enjoy the show. Even if it sounds rushed and stilted in the beginning because it was a strange new environment and I felt like a caged animal on display. But it was fun. For reals! Peace!
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Eric Dorman discusses his personal transition from progressivism to classic conservatism despite being a never Trumper, and the pragmatic nature of Tennessee politics. He works for a nonprofit news source that serves the homeless in Nashville, is a frequent contributor to Mockingbird, and runs his own site called Kept Republic. virtueinthewasteland.com
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After five plus years of the podcast, we finally get around to a proper discussion of virtue ethics. We do so with the leading active scholar in America today: Christian Miller of Wake Forest University. (The Roman Catholic Alisdair McIntyre and Lutheran Gilbert Meilaender have both recently retired, so we don't think this claim is hyperbolic.) Miller is the author of several books and articles, but his recent book The Character Gap: How Good Are We? is a gem. And it is both good at handling scholarship--including scholarship from the field of social psychology--and presenting it in an understandable way to a non-technical audience. If you've been listening for a while and want a good presentation of virtue theory, this is the place to go. Miller holds a B.A. in philosophy from Princeton University, and a Ph.D. from the University of Notre Dame. His main areas of research are meta-ethics, moral psychology, moral character, action theory, and philosophy of religion. He is the A. C. Reid Professor of Philosophy at Wake Forest University and Philosophy Director of the Beacon Project (), funded by the Templeton Religion Trust. He was the Director of the Character Project (), which was funded by $5.6 million in grants from the John Templeton Foundation and Templeton World Charity Foundation. He is the author of over 80 papers as well as three books with Oxford University Press, Moral Character: An Empirical Theory(2013), Character and Moral Psychology (2014), and The Character Gap: How Good Are We? (forthcoming 2017). He is also the editor or co-editor of Essays in the Philosophy of Religion (Oxford University Press), Character: New Directions from Philosophy, Psychology, and Theology (Oxford University Press), Moral Psychology, Volume V: Virtue and Character (MIT Press), Integrity, Honesty, and Truth-Seeking (Oxford University Press), and The Continuum Companion to Ethics (Continuum Press).
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On today's show we travel into the deep south, racecar country, to meet up with Fr. Victor Singingeagle to talk about Potowatomi religion and Christianity, the pre-columbian social world of 15th c. America, and life as an outsider looking in. We first met Fr. Victor Singingeagle through our friends the Klembara's and Blake Flattely, who met him when they produced their documentary short on Concorida Selma. The Rev Dr holds two PhDs, one in anthropology and one in English and He is a former administrator and professor at the now defunct Concordia College, Selma, a historically black college. As part of their road trip throughout the American South, Dan and Jeff met up with the good Reverend Dr., for a lively evening of discussion all things Native American, faith and culture.
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Reflections on first leg of the road trip through the American Southeast, and an interview of three committed Christian kids in the Bible belt who defy easy categorization. Julia, Luke and Calista share their candid thoughts on hot button topics. Not a debate but fact finding. virtueinthewasteland.com 1517.org
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