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Today’s episode, #218, brings to a close Season 8 of our You Were Made for This podcast. If you’ve been listening for any length of time, I hope you’ve come to appreciate the high value we place on the skill of listening as a way to enrich our lives. As we wrap up Season 8 today, I’m going to share a story that illustrates why it’s better to listen than to talk.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it.
The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
A housekeeping note - let’s stay in touchWhile there won’t be any new podcasts coming your way for awhile, I still want to stay connected with you. Email is the easiest way for me to stay in touch with you. I’ve got some ideas and projects in mind I want to tell you about, so I’ll need your email address to do that.
If you already get my Wednesday email, you’re good to go. There's nothing more for you to do. But if you’re not on my email list and you want to hear from me occasionally, you’ll need to sign up for it.
Click here or go to johncertalic.com/email to get on my email list.
An example from the Bible of how it’s better to listen than to talkAlright. Now, for today, I’m going to start by sharing with you an interesting example in the Bible of listening found in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 17, verses 1-8. It’s often referred to the transfiguration of Jesus. Here’s the story:
1Six days later Jesus took Peter and the two brothers, James and John, and led them up a high mountain to be alone. 2As the men watched, Jesus’ appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light. 3Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared and began talking with Jesus.
4Peter exclaimed, “Lord, it’s wonderful for us to be here! If you want, I’ll make three shelters as memorials[a]—one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
5 But even as he spoke, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy. Listen to him.” 6The disciples were terrified and fell face down on the ground.
7Then Jesus came over and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8And when they looked up, Moses and Elijah were gone, and they saw only Jesus.
A few observationsThe passage is full of references to light. Jesus' face is shone like the sun…His clothes are “as white as light.” God speaks from a “bright cloud.”
Another thing I noticed in this passage is what an unusual circumstance Peter, James, and John find themselves in. Not only does Jesus change his appearance, but we also have him in conversation with Moses and Elijah, two Old Testament figures who died centuries ago. There’s clearly a relationship between the three of them.
But the three apostles have no category or words to process what they are seeing. They’ve never seen anything like this before.
And then I noticed one word that jumps out, waving its arms to tell me it’s the keyword in the text, around which everything else orbits. Like all the planets revolving around the sun. It’s the word “listen” in verse 5.
In the original Greek language in which the New Testament is written, listen means “to hear, consider, learn from, to understand, comprehend.”
A contrast in reacting to JesusWe see how this relational dynamic of listening is played out in how the three disciples react to this most unusual situation.
Peter was awestruck by what he saw at the top of the mountain that day. And rather than sitting back and letting the event unfold, he starts talking. He was so uncomfortable with this transformation of Jesus, plus the return of Elijah and Moses from the dead. He had never seen anything like this.
So Peter deals with his discomfort by proposing this laughable building plan that sounds so spiritual: Building three shelters or tabernacles, one each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah.
Peter interjected himself into the conversation between Jesus, Elijah, and Moses. Do you think they were talking about the need for a shelter or tabernacle for each of them? I don’t think so.
The truly awesome revelation of the majesty of God should have silenced Peter by taking his breath away.
In contrast to Peter, we have James and John were also present, but they didn’t say a word. Everyone else was talking: Jesus, Moses, Elijah, and, of course, Peter. Have you ever been the silent one in the room where everyone else is talking? I wonder what it was like for these quiet two.
We miss things when we talk rather than listenThe text says Jesus took Peter, James, and John with him up a mountain “to be alone.” Jesus’s appearance then changed: “His face showed like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.”
For what purpose? He becomes transformed with all this brightness. Why? Then Moses and Elijah show up from the dead? How come? What does all this mean?
We don’t know the answer to any of these questions because Peter starts talking. Had he kept quiet, and just watched and listened, we might have learned more. But by talking, Peter changes the trajectory of the event by sharing what he’s thinking rather than waiting to hear what Jesus has to say.
Theologians have speculated for centuries what Jesus had in mind when he orchestrated this event. I wonder how this story would have turned out had Peter kept his mouth closed, like James and John, and let the story unfold without interjecting himself into it.
Notice also what Peter says, “Lord, it’s wonderful for us to be here!” He was making this spectacular event all about him, and not about Jesus and his agenda.
We often personalize events and make them about us when, in reality, they’re about what Jesus is doing to advance his kingdom.
Peter couldn’t wait to see things unfold. He couldn’t step into the larger story of Jesus, his transfiguration, and the conversation between Jesus, Moses, and Elijah.
He made this event about the smaller story of his feelings of awkwardness and his way of coping with it through his building proposal. It’s understandable that Peter would feel ill at ease, for there’s no category for what he, James, and John witnessed. Yet James and John kept quiet. Peter could have, too.
What are we to learn from this story?I want to come back to the original meaning of “listen” that I mentioned at the beginning. In the original Greek, as I mentioned, listen means “to hear, consider, learn from, to understand, comprehend.”
What are we to consider, learn from, understand, or comprehend from this story?
It reminds me of the fortune cookie photo you can see in the show notes and on our website. It was sent to me by Kathy, a long-time friend and board member of our ministry. She happened to be in San Fransisco on a trip with her son. Kathy is well-versed in our passion for promoting good listening and wrote the following about the photo:
We then went to a Chinese restaurant in San Francisco’s Chinatown, and after dinner, I opened my fortune cookie and practically gasped out loud when I saw this fortune! It was much better than the typical "A pleasant surprise is waiting for you" fortune! I knew right away I had to share it with you!
“There are lessons to be learned by listening to others”
“It’s better to listen” principles from the Transfiguration storySo what can we take away from this story to help us in our relationships? Here are a few:
It’s better to listen than talk when we don’t understand something Don’t let our own personal story, as important as it may be to us, get in the way of the larger story of God’s purposes. Keep our story small. God’s story large. Look for how our story fits into God’s story, not the other way around. Since Jesus brings great joy to God, we do ourselves a big favor when we listen to Jesus. In doing so, we will bring joy to God, too. When we listen to Jesus, everything else falls into place. Our fears, our concerns, our hope for the future ClosingAs we wrap up season eight today, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to see how you can put into practice the better to listen principle.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
And don’t forget, if you want to get on my email list so we can stay in touch going forward, you’ll need to sign up for it. Unless, of course, you’re already getting my weekly emails. Click here or go to johncertalic.com/email to get on my email list.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Prior recent episode217: God Will Surprise Us
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
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In the past dew episodes I’ve been talking about how I tracked down my birth father and met him for the first… and last time in my life. You’ll find links to those episodes at the bottom of the show notes. Today’s show concludes this painful chapter in my life by focusing on a larger relational and spiritual principle that applies to all of us. Namely, sometimes in our difficulties God will surprise us in unusual ways to remind us he is still working for our good and for his glory.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
Where we left off in the last episodeIn our last episode, #216, I told how I got the phone number of my birth father through one of his other sons. After about a month of sitting on the phone number and rehearsing what I would say to him when we talked, I finally summoned up the nerve to make the call. Part of my delay in calling, I realized later, was that the search for him was what energized me, not any actual contact with my birth father. The adrenaline rush was over.
I had no illusions that he would respond well when I called. I don’t even know what responding well would have looked like. The fact the man was married seven times lowered my expectations. There was no thinking in my mind that he would rejoice at my call, sobbing, and once he composed himself would say something like,
No fantasy expectation“Oh, I’ve wondered about you and thought about you almost every day since I first heard you were going to be born. Your mother would not return my phone calls. I even stopped at her apartment on one of my trips, but no one was home. I wrote to her a number of times, but she never wrote back. Then I lost track of her. I am SO glad you called, and I do hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me for not being able to support you when you were a child. If you have it in your heart to forgive me, I really would like to see you face to face.”
A more realistic response, I thought, would be his denial that he was my birth father. He might even hang up on me. I’d be fine with either. The court records told me all I needed to know about his character.
Surprise ending to my search“Hello, is this Jack Byrd?
“Yes, it is.”
“My name is John Certalic, and I’m doing some family history work and I think you and I might be related.”
“Really?”
“Yes, does the name Renee Morris ring a bell with you?”
“No, can’t say as it does.”
“You would have met her in the late 1940s when you were a truck driver and used to make runs to Milwaukee where she lived. She was from northern Minnesota and worked for the telephone company.”
“Hmmm. This does sound familiar, now that you say it.”
“Well, I am her son, and she tells me you are my father.”
Long silence. Dead air. Nothing. What is he going to say now? What came out of his mouth surprised me.
“Well, well,” with a jovial laugh as would come from a gentle grandfather, “I guess I have children all over the country I didn’t even know about.”
We talked for a bit more, exchanged addresses, and agreed to send pictures of each other.
Neither of us ever did.
A different surprise phone callAfter tracking him down, and then my telephone conversation with Jack Edward Byrd, I was able to put things to rest more easily. That all changed about six months later when the telephone rang one sunny Sunday autumn afternoon.
“Hello.”
“Hello. Is this John Certalic?”
“Yes, it is.”
“You don’t know me, but my name is Judy Capes.”
I went silent for what seemed like an hour as I processed what I just heard and speculated what it might mean. Why was SHE calling? How did she find me? Was I going to be in trouble? All these thoughts raced through my head, like an auctioneer’s rapid review of bids on used farm equipment at a foreclosure.
What did I do wrong now? was the question that always popped into my mind at times like this. The answer was almost always nothing, but growing up as a kid, I always assumed I was doing something wrong. What other
explanation could there be for my mother yelling and slapping me in the face so many times?
“You don’t know me, but my name is Judy Capes.”
But I did know something of Judy Capes.
She is Jack Byrd’s first child from his first of six marriages. I learned about her from court records I had found in Fort Wayne.
She continued. “I was talking to Dad recently and he told me about your call to him several months ago. He wrote you a card and sent a few pictures, but they came back to him in the mail. Apparently you moved and the forwarding address expired.”
My birth father tracks me downShe was right. I had given him my office address rather than my home address, and I had moved my business to another part of town before he wrote to me. I was surprised it had been that long since I talked to him.
“Dad asked if I would try to track you down for him. So I just searched online and found you rather easily.”
“I see.”
“I guess you and I are brother and sister then,” she gracefully remarked, trying to end the awkward silence.
“I guess so.”
So Judy knew.
In my search for Jack Edward Byrd, I didn’t want to open up a can of worms for him or his other children or ex-wives. So I never tipped my hand to share with any of them that I was his illegitimate child, the one he kept secret from everyone.
“Tell me about yourself, then. And how did you find Dad?”
Now that she knew, I had no reason to be secretive, so I gave her a quick summary of my life and told her how I found the man she called “Dad,” but for whom I had no title other than the antiseptic, “Birth father.”
Discovering a surprise sibling“So that’s me, Judy. Tell me about you.”
I learned she was living in Leesburg, Indiana—just twenty minutes from our daughter’s in-laws, a couple with whom we became friends when our kids married.
We had a long talk, a very pleasant one that concluded with Judy saying, “I’d like to meet you in person. Any chance we could do that when you visit your daughter’s in-laws?”
“Possibly,” I said. “We don’t get down to Indiana as much anymore now that our daughter moved back to Milwaukee. But I would like to see you, too.”
Shortly thereafter, the conversation ended. I thought, Do I have room for another relationship?
Within six months, Janet and I were visiting Judy. Meeting her renewed my curiosity about Jack Edward Byrd, the one person we had in common.
The Saturday afternoon of our meeting, Janet and I drove up the gravel road to where Judy lived in semi-rural Leesburg, Indiana. We turned a bend in the fire lane that separated two rows of one-story homes on small lots in between two channels of a lake we later learned was good for fishing. Within a minute of pulling up to her tasteful and well-maintained yellow home, she came out to greet us as we got out of our car.
She’s very tall, just like me, was my first thought. Just like her father, as described to me by his former daughter-in-law.
“She looks like you. I could see the resemblance right away,” Janet would tell me later.
As we got out of the car, Judy walked over to us, welcomed us, and gave me a big hug.
A surprising family reunionMonths passed and one day I got an e-mail from Judy, saying she was going to arrange a family reunion at her house some Sunday afternoon in the fall.
“I do hope you and Janet can come. We are flying Dad up, and Jim and I are going to drive down to the Indianapolis airport to pick him up the Saturday before.
“He doesn’t know anything about this, and I’m not going to tell him until he gets off the plane. If I told him now, he probably wouldn’t come. So that’s why I’m going to spring it on him once he’s off the plane. There’s a distinct possibility, though, he might turn around and fly right back home to Florida. I’m willing to take the risk, though.”
Judy continued. “I’ve already talked to my other brothers and sisters, and all except one plan to come. Some of them have not seen or talked to Dad in over thirty years. I sure hope you can come.”
That call set the stage for the most awkward afternoon I have ever spent in my life.
As we sat in Judy’s living room, I talked a little, but mostly listened and drew people out to learn about them. They comprised an interesting group, and
was enjoying myself. Then the door bell rang, the front door opened, and in walked a tall, slightly hunched over, silver-haired old man.
It was Jack Edward Byrd.
I meet my birth fatherWearing a white and peach-colored Ban-Lon sport shirt, gray polyester pants, and white shoes, my birth father looked every bit the part of an eighty-year-old retiree from Florida.
“Hi, everyone,” he announced to those in the living room. He straightened his shoulders and began walking around the room, extending his handshake to some. He walked past me with a fleeting “Hello.” What a terribly awkward moment.
He seemed like the next-door neighbor who just stopped over to borrow a plumber’s snake to clean out a clogged drain.
I watched him engage with the others in small talk. He appeared comfortable, while most of the rest of us looked ill at ease. It was a meeting of strangers. Judy later told me some of her siblings, who live within forty miles of each other, had not seen or talked to each other since high school.
Though I dislike ice-breakers, I felt like we needed one at that moment. Something like, “Share with your partner a favorite childhood memory.”
It was an afternoon of small talk around a really big elephant in the room—Jack E. Byrd, the father of us all.
Sharing the search results with two trusted friendsMore significant than all the details of locating, and then meeting my birth father, is how I finally moved passed this I never should have born - it’s not how it’s done chapter in my life. It’s significant because it illustrates a relational principle that can be applied in many different situations when we want to help people close to us going through a difficult patch in their life.
For me, help came from my wife Janet, and two friends, Brad and Kathy. The four of us would get together for dinner occasionally during the search for my birth father. They would ask how trying to locate him was going and I’d update them on my progress. It was something I didn’t want to talk about, yet I wanted to at the same time. It was always upsetting to me.
One particular evening we made arrangements to meet for dinner. Driving to the restaurant, I vowed I would not talk about what I was going through. It weighed so heavily on my heart that I needed a break from it all. We had gone out with them twice before, and both times when they asked how I was doing, I couldn’t hold back the tears, for it started the playback of “I should never have been born.” I didn’t want to hear this song again, so I rehearsed in my mind that if they brought the subject up, I was going to stay calm and either say “I’d rather not talk about it,” or just give some cursory facts to be polite.
A dinner surpriseIt was a dark, wintry Saturday night when we pulled up to the restaurant. I dropped Janet off at the door, then drove down several rows of parked cars before I could find an empty stall for mine. When I walked in the door, I wasn’t able to see Janet, nor Kathy and Brad, anywhere. They must have gotten a table already, I thought. So I began looking for them through the dim light. It took a while for my eyes to adjust, but I spotted them over in the corner at a round table. Table in the corner of a dark restaurant—good
choice, I thought, given how I had been at the more recent times we’ve eaten out together. Besides faintly seeing their silhouettes through the dark light, I also spotted something else at the table.
As I neared the table, I could see tied to the empty chair they saved for me a yellow, helium-filled mylar balloon emblazoned in very large letters, “He’s here! It’s a boy!” Just like the kind of balloon you find in a hospital gift shop you give to parents of newborns. It caught me so off-guard it took my breath away.
I sat down stunned. On my placemat was a card from Kathy and Brad, which on the front read “A baby is a gift of love—it’s a boy. Congratulations!” And on the inside, they had written, “We are so happy you were born.”
This surprise took my breath awayI stared at the card, still feeling the impact of the helium-filled balloon behind me. I couldn’t speak. Nothing came out of me, except the tears I had committed to stuff down while in the parking lot just a few moments before. But these were different tears. Not tears of sorrow, as the others had been. But rather, tears of cleansing release, tears that washed away the dirt of my depression, tears that cleared my eyes so I could see what was true, what was real.
No one said anything. They just watched. Their long silence was so compassionate, so caring, so tender. All I could muster was “Thank you” and a huge sigh of relief. It seems odd now, but something very heavy lifted from me that night. It was like the helium in the balloon. Everything lightened from my heart and seemed to slowly float to the ceiling, through the roof, and gently through the cold night sky up to the stars that seemed to call it away. Far, far away, where it would no longer grip me as it had for so many years.
In the days following, we continued to remain friends. Brad and Kathy knew all about my phone conversation with Jack Byrd, and then meeting him in person at Judy’s house in that most uncomfortable of family reunions.
Friends drift apartBut when we started attending different churches, we drifted apart and didn’t see each other anymore for years. But what they did that night with a helium-filled balloon and a simple card came in handy as a sermon illustration fifteen years later. I was asked to preach a four-part series on caring for others at a church we had recently started attending.
The first sermon was to be about one of my favorite stories in the Bible from the Gospel of Mark where Jesus cared for some difficult people in his life—his own disciples.
I like that story because the disciples remind me of how difficult a person I was for the people in my life during the search for my birth father. The disciples didn’t create a scene in a restaurant like I did, but they certainly needed help when Jesus told them to row across the Sea of Galilee soon after He had fed 5,000 men and their families. Maybe it was the food; I don’t know. In both my story and the disciples’ story, food brought out the worst in us—and the best in the people who cared for us.
Jesus gets in the boat with peopleWhen the disciples did what Jesus told them by getting into the boat on the large lake that is the Sea of Galilee, a storm came up. It caused them to strain at the oars to make it to the other side. They were obedient, yet as the Gospel writer Mark tells us, they were struggling, they were fearful, and their hearts were hardened toward Jesus. The thing that gets them out of their
predicament was Jesus walking from shore onto the water to meet them and get in the boat with them. He says very little in doing so, but in getting in the boat with the obedient, but scared and hardened men, Jesus makes their problem go away. The winds die down and the seas calm, all because Jesus got in the boat with them.
As I prepared this sermon, I was reminded how years earlier my friends Brad and Kathy, did what Jesus did. They got in the boat with me, didn’t say much, but listened and cared for me by just being there. Their presence, even when I caused several scenes in several restaurants, calmed the stormy seas in my life, just as Jesus getting in the boat with His frightened, hardhearted apostles calmed the Sea of Galilee and their hearts as well.
An important relationship principleBrad and Kathy illustrated the principle that we tend to overestimate the power of words, but underestimate the power of our presence. We think we need to say something, that we need to dispense wise, comforting, and helpful words to care for people. But on days when we’re not feeling terribly wise because we’ve misplaced the car keys or can’t figure out how to program our DVR, we feel so inadequate.
Most of caring is just showing up, but it is so hard to do when our own needs and inadequacies nag at us like dirty dishes in the sink crying for our attention. Caring for others exposes our perceived shortcomings of who we are and what we’re capable of. What if I say the wrong thing? What if I make things worse? If I can’t fix this person’s problem what then? What will all of this say about ME?
I planned to mention in my sermon that caring for others is not about us. It’s about them. It’s about being available to God to be used to draw people to
His son Jesus. It’s not about being a competent problem-solver or wise advice-giver. It’s about reflecting the image of God well and being His
representative. It’s about getting out of the way so the Holy Spirit can work in someone’s heart without interference from us.
A surprise from GodThat’s what Kathy and Brad did for me, and it’s what we can all do for each other. In my finer moments, as rare as they are, I find myself asking the question, I wonder if there’s someone God is asking me to get into the boat with. Not conventional grammar, I know. But sometimes the best thoughts have the worst English.
So that’s what I prepared to talk about in my sermon that Sunday morning. Moments before the service began, I was stunned to see two friends seated in the audience I had not seen or talked to in years—Brad and Kathy.
ClosingIn closing, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to think of a person going through a rough time who could use someone like you to get into their boat.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows215: Searching For My Birth Father
139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Prior recent episode216: Our Past Helps Us Understand Our Present
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
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Hello everyone. If you haven’t listened to episode 215, “Searching for my Birth Father,” I suggest listening to that episode before continuing with this one. Just go to johncertalic.com/215. Today’s episode, #216, continues with the theme of how understanding our past helps us understand our present when we see how God began shaping us early on to find joy in being the person he created us to be.
Before we get into this I need to tell you that Carol, our announcer and executive director on vacation this week. Filling in for her is the latest addition to our staff, our chaplain and family cat, Father Patrick O’Malley. You’ll see his picture at the top of our show notes for today’s episode.
Picking up where we left off in the previous episodeWe left off episode 215 with the end of a conversation I had with my mother in the early 1990s about wanting to track down my birth father. The only information she had on him was that Jack Byrd, a truck driver, lived in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1948.
I’ll continue now reading from edited excerpts from my book, THEM that describe what I did next.
* * *
At the time of this talk with my mother, our son and daughter were attending Grace College in Winona Lake, Indiana, about forty miles from Fort Wayne. I learned through my genealogy class that Fort Wayne has one of the best genealogy libraries in the country.
Planning a trip to discover more about my pastI thought I would extend one of our weekend trips to visit our kids by driving to Fort Wayne to try locating this Jack Byrd. But without the Internet, and certainly without Google, I didn’t have a lot to go on. Just his name, and a seemingly common one at that, his occupation, and where he lived 43 years ago.
Before going to Fort Wayne, I started some research from home using directory assistance. (My apologies here to the thirty and younger crowd. Ask your parents or grandparents about “directory assistance.”) I called the Fort Wayne area code, asking for the phone number of any Jack Byrd, of which there were three. Each with different middle names or initials. So I called my mother and asked her if she remembered his middle name, and she did —it was Edward. Jack Edward Byrd.
Then I called the only Jack E. Byrd listed with directory assistance and found out he wasn’t the Byrd I was looking for. This Jack Byrd told me the following, “Back in the 1950s, I used to get mistaken for him all the time. Bill collectors and other people kept calling me, thinking I was the other Jack E. Byrd. It was quite annoying. Sorry I can’t help you out, but good luck in finding him.”
A second dead-end in search for my birth fatherStarting this search process surprised me; something I had ignored for thirty years had developed into a sense of urgency to locate my birth father. It created an adrenaline rush in me that lasted for about six months. In the genealogy class I learned of services that track down birth parents for adopted children. So I contacted one and paid twenty- five dollars for them to try locating Jack Edward Byrd. They came up with nothing. They’re not trying hard enough, I thought.
Undeterred by this dead end, Janet and I decided to visit our college kids over their homecoming weekend in October of 1991. We drove down on a Thursday evening. Then on Friday, while Janet spent time with our daughter Jennifer and our son Michael in Winona Lake, I drove over to Fort Wayne. I wanted to use what I had been learning in my genealogy class to try locating this mystery man in my life.
My first stop was the Allen County Public Library in Fort Wayne, where I camped out in the Genealogical Department. Looking through every source I could think of, I documented my research as I used to do when I wrote term papers in college. Using one bit of information to lead to another energized me. I started looking through obituary notices from the Fort Wayne newspaper. I found nothing there. I had to move on to something different, and to do it quickly, for I was due back in Winona Lake the same evening to attend homecoming activities with our kids.
Looking for keys to my past at the library and courthouseChecking out city directories, I found listings for Jack E. Byrd from 1946 to 1955. His employers indicated several trucking firms he worked for during this period. He disappeared after that. I looked for current listings of these same trucking companies, but they did not exist anymore. Had they still been in business, maybe an old-timer there would have remembered my birth father. Time was running out and I still hadn’t gotten the information I needed. Maybe I’ll have to come back and visit the addresses where he lived in the early 1950s to see if any of the neighbors were there at the time, and if so, ask if they knew his whereabouts.
With nowhere else to look in the Genealogical Department of the Allen County Library, and with time moving quickly, I went across the street to the Allen County Courthouse. It was there I found a treasure trove of information I needed. Room 201 houses the marriage and divorce records, so I started there. I was surprised, yet not surprised at what I found.
It’s amazing what information you can find on a marriage license. I discovered Jack Edward Byrd was born on April 4, 1922. This April 4th date is a very significant date in my own history, which I will get to later.
Back to the story. Jack Byrd married a woman named Helen Jane Williamson in 1940. I was pretty sure this was my Jack Edward Byrd because it showed his occupation as a truck driver living in the area. This marriage was his first of six, five of which ended in divorce. One ended with the death of his last wife.
My birth father’s other familyAt the time of my birth in February 1949 he was on wife number three and had four children from these marriages. Then there was me. I was conceived the same month his fourth child was born. So he was right in telling my mother when she announced her pregnancy to him that he had another family in Indiana and couldn’t support the two of us and his Indiana family at the same time.
I certainly had no illusions my birth father was the epitome of virtue or that Focus on the Family was going to be contacting him anytime soon to present a lifetime achievement award. He was married three more times after I was born. On several of the wedding licenses, I noticed he either lied to whomever recorded the information, or there was a misprint.
The clock was ticking ever faster as I read through all this data. I wrote down names and any possible contact information from documents I discovered that I could later follow up on when I got home. Once I had gotten all there was to get in room 201, I then checked for civil and probate records, but I wasn’t very thorough because their indexing system was hard to figure out and there wasn’t time to learn it.
I still had about an hour left to do whatever research I could. There was more I could check, but it might have to wait for another trip to Fort Wayne. But the adrenaline was flowing and I wanted to use every minute left.
One final push to gather information about my pastSo I went across the street from the courthouse to the city/ county building to look for records there. Nothing turned up for Jack E. Byrd, but I did find a few records for his son Timothy Kevin Byrd. First a property deed from 1990, then divorce papers from his wife. I wrote down any names and contact information I could follow up on later.
With lots of paper filled with my notes, I headed back to Winona Lake for the evening activities with our son and daughter. I had spent the day using what I learned in the genealogy class, as well as what I learned from a summer job when I was a teacher. I worked for an insurance investigation firm where I checked court documents, looking for criminal records and civil actions. Added to this were the skills I developed as a headhunter, where I used one
bit of information to lead to another. All of this experience came into play in searching for Jack Edward Byrd. I think I was enjoying this process more than I should have. It gave me a sense of control and power over what had rendered me powerless for so many years.
Once we were back home in Milwaukee after my foray into the secrets of the Allen County Courthouse, I organized the notes I had taken and began mapping out a plan to locate Jack E. Byrd.
Making phone calls to discover more of my pastUsing directory assistance, I started calling Jack E. Byrd’s ex-wives and children, whose names I had found on marriage and divorce records. Several of them were easily located; others I could not find. The ones I could locate were scattered around various communities in Indiana. Unlike their husband
and father, they didn’t stray far from their Hoosier roots. He, on the other hand, as I discovered, strayed as geographically as he did in his marital relationships, ending up in various cities in Alabama and Florida.
In calling the contacts I located, I didn’t want this skeleton in their family closets to come falling down on them, fracturing something in them like it did me. I didn’t want to open a can of worms for them. I didn’t want to let the cat out of the bag. I didn’t want to use other clichés for this very important process to me. I had to be honest, yet not reveal too much that would arouse suspicion.
So when I called, I would introduce myself and simply say, “I am doing research into my family history and as part of the search, I’m trying to locate a Jack Edward Byrd, someone I think I may be related to. Do you know if he’s still alive and if so, what his phone number is?”
One bit of information leads to another piece of my pastNo one ever questioned my motives. No one ever asked how I might be related. No one ever asked, “Well, if you think you’re related to Jack Byrd, do you think maybe you might be related to me, too?” If they had, I probably would have just hung up the phone without answering. I’ve learned not every question people ask needs to be answered. I’ve also learned on the rare occasion when people ask me a question that makes me feel uncomfortable, it helps to ask a question in return, “Why do you ask?”
One particular ex-wife I contacted, a woman living in Rensselaer, Indiana, was most helpful. She had lost track of her ex a number of years ago, but she had a lot of names and phone numbers of family members who might know the whereabouts of one Jack E. Byrd. She did think he was still alive. I spent many evenings calling these leads and asking each of them for additional leads. Lots of phone calls, but no success. That was okay, though, because I was doing something. I could do, rather than feel. Doing something gave me a measure of control. It quieted the “you never should have been born; it’s not how people are supposed to come into the world” voices.
One night, while going through my notes from my research in Fort Wayne, I found notes I had scribbled down from the divorce papers of one of Jack Byrd’s sons, Timothy Kevin Byrd. I should mention that in my search, I was always asking for leads to any of Jack Byrd’s children, thinking they would likely know how to reach their father, if in fact, he was still alive.
An attorney gives me a clue to help discover my pastFor some unexplainable reason, when I was at the courthouse, I also wrote down the name of the attorney and law firm that handled the divorce for Timothy Kevin Byrd, which took place in the 1980s.
The next day, I called the law firm of that attorney and asked to speak to him. Relieved he was still with them, I explained I was doing some family history research and noticed in some court documents he represented Timothy Kevin Byrd’s divorce.
“He is someone I may be related to and I’d like to talk to him. Do you know how I can reach him?”
“Well, if I did, I couldn’t tell you—attorney-client privilege and all that. I do remember him, though, and by the way, he goes by Kevin Byrd. I haven’t talked to him in years, but the last I heard, he had moved to Ohio.”
That explained why I couldn’t locate him through directory assistance in the (219) area code in Indiana. In those days, there was no nationwide directory assistance—you had to make a request for a person in a specific city, or at the very least, in a specific area code.
“What about his wife, his ex-wife? Do you know how I can reach her?”
“Hmm. I think she still lives in the Fort Wayne area,” he replied.
This is sure awkwardI had her name from the divorce records so I called directory assistance in Fort Wayne, got her phone number, and then waited a few days before calling. I sensed this call was going to finally lead to where I wanted to go. It felt like I was closing in on a hunt I did not want to end. It was like coming to the end of a good book you didn’t want to finish because the pleasure of reading it would also come to an end. That’s why I waited before I called.
More nervous than in any of my previous calls, when Kevin Byrd’s ex-wife answered the phone I said, “Hi, you don’t know me, but my name is John Certalic. I’m doing research into my family history and as part of this, I’m trying to locate a Jack Edward Byrd, someone I think I may be related to. I understand you used to be married to one of his sons, Kevin. Is that correct?”
Then silence. And more silence.
Finally, with a nervous, halting voice, she replied, “Yes, that’s correct.”
“I’m wondering if I can ask you a few questions about Jack Byrd.”
Silence once again on the other end of the line. After a very long pause, she said, “Can you call me back tomorrow?”
With her voice cracking, it sounded like she was starting to hyperventilate. “I was married to Kevin for only a year and your call has just opened up a lot of very painful wounds and memories.”
Opening up painful wounds in another’s past“Oh, of course I can call back. I am so sorry. It was not my intent to do this to you. I am so sorry.”
“Call tomorrow. I just need some time to think about this and see if I can talk about it. It was all so terrible.”
“I understand, and I apologize for the pain I’ve caused you.”
“Okay.”
Click.
Yikes! What had I done to the poor woman? Some stranger calls her out of the blue and wants to bring up a very painful part of her past. I felt terrible. So I waited several days before calling back.
“Hi, this is John Certalic again, I spoke to you a few days ago.”
“Yes, I remember. I’m sorry I cut you off, but that period in my life was so awful. It was a very abusive marriage. But you asked about Kevin’s father, Jack. He and Kevin were very similar. Angry, abusive men. Jack was very tall. His face was pock-marked, probably from acne as a kid years ago.”
“Is he still alive?’
“I don’t know. It’s been many years since I last saw him.”
“Do you know where he might be living now?”
“No.”
“How about your ex-husband, Kevin? Do you know how I can reach him?”
“I don’t have a phone number for him. The last I heard, he was living in Columbus, Ohio.”
“Well, thank you so much. You’ve been very helpful to me. And again, I am sorry for reminding you of a painful part of your past.”
“That’s okay.”
“Goodbye.”
Another clue to discovering my pastIt was becoming clear to me that perhaps the path to Jack Byrd was through his son Kevin. So I called directory assistance in Columbus, Ohio, and found no listing for him.
Another roadblock. What do I do next?
I went back to my notes and after looking through them, decided to re-contact Jack Byrd’s ex-wives to see if they knew how I could reach the son, Kevin Byrd. I don’t know why I hadn’t thought of that before.
One of the ex-wives said, “Oh, Kevin. Yes, he is living in Columbus, Ohio now. I think I do have his phone number. Let me see, now. Where did I put it?”
Oh, please, dear God. Let her find the number.
“Yes, here it is. His phone number is ....”
Now we were getting somewhere. Another lead, a good lead, to
follow up. The adrenaline was flowing again. I now knew how to reach the closest relative yet to my birth father. But I was getting more nervous about blowing my cover. What if he was more inquisitive than all the others? What if he wanted to know how I thought I might be related to his father? I needed to be honest, yet I wanted to respect everyone’s privacy. I didn’t want a repeat of what had happened with the call to his ex-wife.
It was getting a bit tense. A week went by before I summoned the courage to call the son of my biological father. My half-brother, Kevin Byrd. Same father. Different mothers. It occurred to me then that all of my siblings are half-brothers or half-sisters—the four I grew up with, and the many others I had never met. Nothing in me seemed whole.
Everything was half-this, half-thatEverything was half. I was half-happy. Half-depressed. Nothing was full as it should be. I was not even fully adopted, for I had been raised by half of my birth parents, and adopted by the other half. This sometimes depressed me,
too. If both my birth parents had abandoned me, maybe I would have had more reason to be depressed all the time as a kid and young adult.
Nothing was normal. That’s how it felt during my search.
Not long ago, though, I found some healing from this at a wedding for one of my nieces. I don’t remember how we got on the subject but my brother Joe, who I grew up with, looked at one of my sisters and me, and shaking his head in disbelief, said, “I NEVER considered John my half-brother. He was always just my brother. Never just a half-brother.” What wonderful healing words those were to me.
The final clueThe search for my birth father, rather than depressing me, energized me. The next thing to do was to call his son, Kevin Byrd. After staring at the phone one evening, and picking it up and setting it down once or twice, I finally dialed his number.
“Hello, you don’t know me, but my name is John Certalic. I’m doing some research into my family history and as part of this, I’m trying to locate a Jack Edward Byrd, and I understand you are his son. Am I correct?”
“Yes, I’m his son.”
“Great. Is he still alive?”
“Yes, he is, last time I checked.”
“Do you know where he is living now and how I can reach him?”
“Dad is living outside of Mobile, Alabama. He moved down there when he retired. He got tired of winters in the Midwest. I’ve got his phone number right here; I just talked to him a few days ago. Here’s his number... Oh, and when you call, let the phone ring for a long time. He’s hard of hearing now and it will take him a while to get to the phone.”
“Thanks. I appreciate your help. Goodbye.”
Now what?
More to come in the next episodeWe need to stop here because I know you have other things to do with your day. But we’ll pick up and hopefully finish this story in our next episode, #217 in two weeks. I think you’ll be interested in hearing what happened when I actually called Jack Byrd and what he had to say to me.
For now, though, I want to remind you of the theme of this little chapter of my past, namely that understanding our past and where we’ve come from helps us understand our present when we see how God began shaping us early on to find joy in being the person he created us to be.
It’s a theme that can be part of your story as well. For me, I certainly didn’t find any joy at the time in being the person God created me to be. That realization took time. But looking back now, I can see things more clearly.
The April 4ths connectionsHere’s just one example, the whole April 4th thing that I mentioned earlier. In my search for Jack Byrd, I discovered his birthday is April 4th. That day is also the day I found Jesus in 1968, which is my spiritual birthday. It’s also the same day Martin Luther King was assassinated. He transitioned out of this world into a new life the same day I entered a new life.
And then the same thing happened to one of the dearest people in my life, My mother-in-law, Elda Millane, when she died at age 96 on April 4th, 2020. She had been suffering from Alzheimer’s for at least the previous 12 years. It was both a sad and joyous occasion. And it’s the subject of episode 059, “The Last Place You Would Ever Think to Find Joy.” I’ll have a link to it at the bottom of the show notes. It’s really one of my favorites. I hope you listen to it someday.
Thinking about all these connections to April 4th just gives me chills and draws me to the love of God.
ClosingIn closing, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to think about how God has been shaping you, even from an early age, to be the person he’s created to be. And to find a measure of joy in that reality.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows021: The Most Important Relationship of All
059: The Last Place You Would Ever Think to Find Joy
029: An Adoption Relationship Story- Part 1
030: An Adoption Relationship Story - Part 2
Most prior recent episode215: Searching For My Birth Father
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider donating to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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One of the more popular topics from past episodes has been the story of Gail Rohde who was adopted as an infant, and her search as an adult for her birth mother. Then several years after finding her, she searched for her birth father - and found him, too. I’ll have links to those episodes at the bottom of the show notes.
It can be a relational minefield in dealing with the dynamics of adoptees wanting to know where they’ve come from, especially when it’s been hidden from them.
I have a similar story about searching for my birth father that I wrote about in my book, THEM. Today’s episode is about that search.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach. I'm here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
An invitation from a friendOne day my retired friend Bill told me he was starting to get interested in his family history. He wanted to learn more about where he came from and then pass this information down to his children and grandchildren. To help with this, Bill decided to attend a meeting of the Milwaukee Genealogical Society at the main library downtown. And he wanted to know if I would like to come with him.
I wanted to know where I came from, too, particularly as it related to my birth father, the man who brought me into this world in a one-night stand with my mother. The man who abandoned us and who made life very difficult for my farm-girl mother from Staples, Minnesota. The man who was having a greater and greater unwelcome influence in my life, though we had never met. Discovering who he was might help me discover who I was.
So with all this in mind, I decided to go with Bill. We went to the first meeting and both of us became hooked on discovering our roots. This was in the early 1990s, before the Internet was widely available. So playing family detective and historian was a bit more challenging than it is today.
Wondering about my birth fatherFrom the time my mother first told me I was born out of wedlock and later adopted by my father, I wondered a lot about who my biological father was. And a lot about who I was. I always felt different as a kid. I was taller than my siblings, and as a teenager, was much taller than my parents. Maybe the circumstances surrounding my birth explained why I was depressed much of the time growing up.
“How you came into the world is not how it’s done. You never should have been born” was a feeling that kept repeating itself over and over again in my soul, like a song on a damaged CD that skips because of a scratched track. Maybe if I knew more about my birth father and where I came from, I would be less depressed.
Long before attending the Milwaukee Genealogical Society meetings with Bill, I began the search for the mystery man from my past. One morning, when I was twenty years old and home from college, I sat at the kitchen table of our small house, just with my mother and father, as my brother and sisters were in school. Fighting back my fear of not knowing what would happen next, I summoned all the courage I could muster to continue the conversation my mother started with me ten years earlier.
Picking up a conversation from ten years ago“Mom, do you remember when I was about ten and you told me Dad was not my natural father? I was wondering whatever happened to my…”
With that, my father quickly jumped up from the table, forcefully cutting me off and pounding his fist on the kitchen table next to his coffee cup, blurting out, “He was a truck driver and was killed in an accident. That’s all we’re ever going to talk about this!”
Something inside told me he was not telling the truth as he stormed out of the room.
For the next twenty years, I wondered about that conversation. Especially around the time of my birthday. I could never enjoy my birthday, for it would once again bring up the “how you came into the world is not how it’s done; you never should have been born” theme from the basement of my heart. It would start a cycle of depression that would last for several days. I felt like crawling in a hole and just sleeping until the depression lifted, as it always did with time.
Wanting to be like everyone elseI felt so different from the rest of the world. Why can’t I be just like everyone else? Yet part of me was glad I was not like everyone else. But that part, the missing legitimacy to my birth part, was where I wanted to be like everyone else. The mystery about my origins troubled me deeply.
I read with rapt attention newspaper articles about people reuniting with their birth parents. I intently watched TV shows and movies about children discovering as adults siblings they never knew they had. There’d be scenes in the airport with middle-aged people hugging their newly found brothers and sisters as they got off the plane. Maybe there’s someone out there like that for me. Maybe my biological father had always wondered about me and was trying to track me down.
In the genealogy classes Bill and I attended, we learned how to find valuable information from public records, like birth certificates filed in courthouses. The copy of my birth certificate shows my last name is Certalic and my father is Harry Certalic. Nothing unusual about this, except if I had been adopted by Harry Certalic, why did his name appear on my birth certificate? My mother told me they married a year and a half after I was born and that he didn’t adopt me until I was five. Were my parents lying to me? It made me angry to think about it. What are they not telling me? Why can’t people tell me the truth?
A courthouse cover-upThings became a bit clearer when I went to our local courthouse to see what they had on me. There I found a large ledger book where births in Milwaukee County were recorded in chronological order. I went to the day I was born and looked for my name with the other births recorded for the day. There was my name, and everything appeared in order, except for one entry—my last name. It clearly showed my last name, “Certalic,” but under the ink appeared some form of White-Out, covering over what had originally been entered. It was obvious someone had erased what was recorded as my surname, and then wrote “Certalic” over the erasure. What is this cover-up all about?
I learned through the genealogy class that in Wisconsin, as in many states, when a child is adopted, its original birth certificate is impounded and a new one issued with the name of the adopted parent(s) shown. So that explains why my official birth certificate looks normal, but the ledger book at the courthouse has the erasure. All this to protect the confidentiality of the birth parent(s). While I’m all for confidentiality in most areas of life, what about the right of children to know who brought them into the world?
Who really, then, was my birth father? What name was covered over on the court ledger? What did my original birth certificate look like? As I neared my 40th birthday, I became more and more agitated and depressed about the whole thing. Janet kept encouraging me to talk to my mother to get more information. The last conversation I had on the topic hadn’t gone very well, so I was not anxious to open a can of worms with her again.
Finishing a conversation from twenty years agoOne Sunday afternoon while visiting my parents, I summoned the courage to try finishing the conversation of twenty years ago about my origins. It was an attempt to finish the conversation begun ten years before.
I had been dealing with this whole thing for thirty years, and not dealing with it well. The voices whispering in my heart, “How you came into the world is not how it’s done; you never should have been born,” grew louder and more frequent.
By now, my father had suffered a paralyzing stroke several years after retiring from his factory job. Because of his stroke, he spent most of his time in a wheelchair watching TV. So with him in the living room, and my mother in the kitchen out of earshot, I continued my conversation with my mom from twenty years ago. In the same room, the same conversation.
My mother finally answered my question“Mom, do you remember when I was ten and you told me Dad was not my real father? Who was my natural father?”
She told me some of what she had said before at that time, that he was a truck driver living in Indiana who would deliver empty beer cans to the breweries in town.
“Did he support us?”
“No, when I asked for money to help us, he said he couldn’t because he had a family of his own in Indiana he had to support.”
With a tight grimace in her face and shoulders hunched up, she continued, “And that’s the last I ever talked to him, that [expletive].”
“What's his name?”
“Jack Byrd.
“Where in Indiana did he live?
“Fort Wayne.”
“I want to try and track him down, Mom. Do you want to know what I find out?”
“No.”
____________________
You’re probably done walking your dog or washing dishes by now, so we’ll need to stop. But in our next episode I’ll share how I finally tracked down my birth father and what happened the day I met him.
Most importantly I’ll explain what I learned from this process.
ClosingAs we close for today, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to think about your origins. To ask your parents questions, if they are still around.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows029: An Adoption Relationship Story- Part 1
030: An Adoption Relationship Story - Part 2
124: Resting In Our Identity Frees Us to Love Well
Prior recent episode214: People Are Like Houses
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider donating to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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A listener once suggested that for a podcast episode I should read from the book I wrote in 2016, THEM- The Richer Life Found in Caring for Others. It’s about relationships, which of course, is what this podcast is about. But I don’t know if reading from it would interest many of you. Maybe the first chapter might, I don’t know. It’s about how people are like houses when it comes to deepening our relationships with others.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it.
The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
THEM - The Richer Life Found in Caring for OthersMy book THEM has never sold well. Many of them sit on a shelf in our basement to prove it. Two of my relatives I know bought the book, and I offered it to the rest of the extended family as Christmas gifts after it came out. But no one wanted a free and signed copy. I was going to pay the postage, too. Yeah, that was my Charley Brown Christmas alright.
But I did get an award and a cash prize for the book. Writers Digest named it the “Best Inspirational Book of 2016.” However, there wasn’t much competition for inspiration in 2016. It was a lean year in the inspiration department, as you may recall.
Nevertheless, I’m going to take a chance and read from selected portions of chapter one of the book that I think you’ll enjoy hearing, and maybe even find inspiring. It’s about a useful principle that could help you in deepening the relationships in your life. It’s called, “People Are Like Houses.”
People are like housesI’ll begin with this. Every house has multiple openings. All kinds of openings— windows, doors, chimneys, even clothes-dryer vents. Openings to bring the outside in, or openings to let the inside out.
When you walk past some houses, the resident of the house will see you from inside through a window, open the door and come bounding out to greet you.
“Why don’t you come in and I’ll get you something to drink. Please stay a while so we can chat and get caught up with each other’s lives. I’ve been thinking about you. I have so much to tell you since we last met. It is so good to see you.”
This is how some people respond when we walk past their houses. Such people are wide-open houses with openings that invite you in. They are easy people to engage with—the low-hanging fruit of relationships. It doesn’t take a lot of work to relate with people like this. Me, I get along great with children and older ladies because they are houses with relational openings I can easily pick out. Younger than eight and older than eighty is my sweet spot. With everyone in between, not so much.
Other people are houses with fewer openings. Walk past someone’s house like this and when she sees you from her front window, she closes the drapes, pulls the blinds, and turns off the lights. If you go to her front door and ring the doorbell, she’ll pretend she’s not home and leave you standing there like a rebuffed Jehovah’s Witness.
Closed openings to this houseA number of years ago, the elders from a church in our area called me into a meeting to ask me how they could better care for their pastor, who was going through a rough time. Their question showed me they didn’t know him very well. The better we know someone, the easier it is to care for them.
I responded to their question with, “I think you need to get to know him better.”
“We’ve tried, but it’s hard because he plays it close to the vest. He doesn’t let anyone in,” replied one of the elders.”
His house is full of closed doors and covered windows. The opening to his house is hard to find, but if you work at it long and hard enough, you’ll find it.
“Maybe he plays it close to the vest because he’s been hurt in the past with being more open, and he doesn’t want to be hurt again. Maybe he plays it close to the vest because he doesn’t trust you.”
A few heads nodded, but that’s as far as it went. Some people have closed houses like this. I’m like this myself at times. I play it close to the vest when I don’t trust people either. I close the openings to my house to protect myself, which Christian psychologist Larry Crabb calls the most common sin of us all—self-protection.
Delayed openingsOther people have houses whose openings will close up at first, but who wait to see if you come back, and then if the stars are properly aligned, and they’ve finished watching Dancing with the Stars, will crack open the door and whisper to you, “Now is not a good time, maybe next week. I’m not feeling well right now.” So you leave with a small opening for the future, a little hope.
Still other people, when they see you come by, will call out from the window, “I’d really like to talk, but the baby is napping, and my husband thinks I spend too much time with my girlfriends, so could you please come back tomorrow? Come at night, though, and come to the back door. I really need to talk to you.”
Different houses, different openingsGet the picture? People are like houses with many different openings. Some are wide open, and others closed shut like a lake cottage in the dead of winter. The frustrating thing for me is that I often want to enter a person’s relational house through the opening I want, through an easy opening like the front door. I don’t want to have to come back again and again, or wait until spring. And I don’t want to go to the back door at night. Nor do I want to talk through the screen of the kitchen window, or get on the ground and whisper through the basement window.
But the fact is, if I want to relate well with someone, I have to go with the opening that person gives me, not the one I want. This principle is especially true in caring for others. We can’t care well for people if we don’t know them very well. To care well means at times we have to pursue people and look for openings to get to know a person at a heart level. It’s not always easy, for some people have closed up many of the openings to their house. We can’t give up, though. It’s important that we work at it. For in the end, it’s always worth it.
The openings children give usThese grandsons of ours have also taught me much about how people, even children, are like houses. They open themselves up to us when they want in ways they want—not at the time or manner I prefer.
On the occasions Janet and I have picked them up from school because their parents were away, I’ve wanted to understand how their day went. What did
they learn in kindergarten today? What is going on in their little hearts. I want to know because I love them deeply and want to enter into their world. When I try to get into their “house,” they are often very closed. They pull the blinds and turn off the lights with their favorite response, “It’s classified.”
It’s classified? Please, don’t they know who I am? I’ve changed their diapers, which should entitle me to more than, “It’s classified, Grandpa.” They closed one of the openings to their house I was trying to enter.
I wondered if there is another opening they would give me. There was.
I discovered the opening one night when Janet and I were babysitting and it came time to put them to bed. They got their pajamas on, brushed their teeth, and crawled into bed. I then read them a book.
“Can you read another one? Please? Oh please!”
“I need a glass of water.”
“Where’s my Star Wars guy? I have to look for it. I can’t go to sleep without it! Really, I won’t fall asleep without it!”
Typical bed-time stall routines. I’ve been through all of this many times, but then one night, Grant, firmly tucked in bed with the covers up to his chin, pulled out from his arsenal of sleep-delaying tactics, this question
“Grandpa, are you going to die?”
I didn’t see this one comingHas someone been talking to this boy? Does he know something I don’t know?
Ironically, his question came eerily close to the question too frightening for all of our family just six years earlier, “Is Grant going to die?” More about that later.
As I sat down on Grant’s bed and looked into his eyes, I could tell he had moved from stalling at bedtime, to a deep metaphysical issue people have pondered for centuries. I was not prepared for his question, nor for such an opportunity to see into his heart. Grant was giving me an opening to his house, and I wanted to take advantage of it. I can’t afford to miss this one, I thought, even though it came at night when I am least alert. But there he was, opening his house to me in a way that worked for him.
As I sat on the bed, I told him, “Yes, I will die someday, but it most likely wouldn’t happen for a very long time.” I went on to tell him that when I did die, I would go to heaven to be with Jesus, where I would wait for him—to join me many years later. I told Grant we have nothing to worry about when it comes to dying if we know Jesus. For if we know Jesus, we will spend forever with Him and with all the other people who know Him.
Grateful for this opening I was invited intoA smile broke out on his small lips that told me he was okay with my answer. He could now call it a day because his question about the destiny of humanity was settled and he could move on. He was comforted, as was I.
“Good night, Grant. I love you.”
“I love you, too, Grandpa.”I turned out his light, thankful for the opening he had given me to his house, to his heart. We connected at an unwelcome, unexpected time for me. I found with our grandkids some of the most significant conversations I’ve had with them happened at night sitting on their bed, because it is when it is most comfortable for them. It’s when they were the most reflective. I have to be on guard, to be aware, so I can take advantage of the openings they give me.
* * * * * * *
Well there you have it, the “People Are Like Houses” principle from chapter one of my book, THEM. In addition to the two examples of this principle I’ve shared here, there are three more stories like it in chapter one of the book. But we’ve run out of time for today, as you’ve probably finished with folding laundry or picking up the kids from school.
I’ll leave you with two thoughts. I wonder if people you want to understand better are giving you “openings to their house” that you might be missing.
And secondly, are you making it harder on people to relate to you because many of the openings to your house are closed? Are your drapes closed and your porch light turned off? It might be worth the risk to switch the lights on and open a window are two.
ClosingAs we close up shop for today, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to look a little more closely at the openings people may be giving you into their house.
Because when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. Don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Prior recent episode213: Five Things to Watch for in Your Next Conversation
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider donating to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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One thing on my mind lately is a question about the meaningful conversations we sometimes have with friends, and what makes them different from other conversations. I started thinking about this while reading news articles about the Super Bowl played earlier this month.
Meaningful conversations and the Super Bowl don’t quite seem to fit together, but they do in my mind. Keep listening and I’ll explain the connection in today’s episode, number 213.
Welcome to today’s episodeMaybe they’ve always done this, I don’t know, but it seems that sports journalists lately are using a new format to write about upcoming sporting events. It’s a pattern where the headline states a specific number of things to look for when one team plays another.
Take the recent Super Bowl from a few weeks ago, for example. “Five things to Watch for When the 49ers take on the Kansas City Chiefs” would be a common headline in news stories. Articles like this help the reader focus on specifics of the game coming up.
This makes me think what if we took the same news approach to analyze the conversations we have with the people close to us. I wonder what that would do to enhance our relationships. Would it make for more meaningful conversations with the people close to us?
I’m going to try this out in today’s episode I’m calling Five Things to Watch for in Your Next Conversation with a Friend
Here goes. First off,
Notice if the topic of conversation with your friend is new or is it one that’s been repeated many times before?Assuming neither of you are suffering from Alzheimer’s, do you or your friend frequently cover the same ground you’ve gone over many times before? For example, does the topic of conversation drift once again to discussing your body’s aches and pains? My friend Robert calls these “organ recitals.” Or does it go to concern about wayward children? The state of our country or culture? Should I buy brown carpeting or grey carpeting? Things you’ve talked about many, many times before.
Why are some conversations with our friends like this? Is there nothing else on our minds? Are we that shallow?
I don’t think so.
My guess is that people who bring up the same topics over and over again are bound up by the unspoken emotions about those topics. No. 1 on the list would be fear, or one of its cousins, like anxiety. Sadness or regret would not be far behind. They are all close relatives.
We sometimes ruminate over things because we haven’t put words to what we’re feeling about those concerns. Instead, what if we talked about the emotions riding on the backs of the topics we repeatedly bring up and see where the conversation goes? It will be a lot better than going in a never-ending circle we often go around in.
A second thing to look for that’s important to having meaningful conversations is to notice who does most of the talking.
Notice who does most of the talkingThere are certainly times where a conversation with a friend needs to be all about them. One person should have the floor for the entire time when they are dealing with a recent loss or some unexpected circumstance. But it shouldn’t be a pattern every time you talk.
I have an extended family relative who is quite a charming extrovert that I only see at extended family gatherings like weddings and funerals. Everyone likes the guy. He holds court with all the relatives and goes on for what seems like hours talking about what’s going on in his life. We know all about him. He knows virtually nothing about the rest of us.
There’s no air time for a meaningful conversation with him. It’s always an interesting monologue from his lips, but there’s no back and forth dialog.
You see the same thing in restaurants sometimes with small groups of people. One person dominates the conversation. And it’s usually someone who talks loudly so you can’t help but overhear what he or she is talking about.
Many times If you look at the faces of those not talking in the group you’ll see blank stares.
In most meaningful conversations people take turns talking and listening. Some may talk more than others, but do they also listen at some point in the conversation? Is there give and take, or is one person giving a speech to an audience?
Here’s another thing to watch for in a conversation with friends.
Is the conversation more about the head or is it more about the heart?Conversations about facts or events, or little things running around inside our brain, can be very meaningful. I’ve had quite a number of them in my lifetime that center on what I think as opposed to what feel. I think of the conversation I had in my twenties with Vern who was twice my age, and the time I asked him what he thought about a career change I was considering. His simple, “I think you’d be good at that” changed my life.
Then there are the conversations about the heart. For example, there are two topics on the hearts of most Baby Boomers like me that don’t get talked about much. The first is Who’s going to take care of me in my old age when I can no longer care for myself? Who’s going to be there for me? Single people think it’s more of an issue for them. But it isn’t. It’s on the mind of married couples just as much. Will my spouse be up to the task? And my kids, will I be able to count on them?
Another important heart topicRelated to this issue is the second heart topic, Will I run out of money at the end of my life, and if so, what do I do then?
As helpful as conversations can be that come from our heads, those that come from our hearts do a better job of bringing us closer together with each other.
Inasmuch as we have control of a conversation, we do ourselves a favor when we look for and discuss the emotional aspects surrounding the issues of life. Like baby boomers talking about their worries of who’s going to care for me. Who can I trust at the end of my life? Regrets for not saving as much as I could have, or not being able to save anything earlier for my later years.
Here’s another thing to watch for in our conversation with friends.
Be mindful of how many times the topic of conversation changesThe more topics brought up in a conversation, the less listening is going on. Talking a little about many things is not nearly as life-giving as talking at length about one subject.
The “Let’s talk about everything” approach hijacks a conversation by using what someone is talking about as a springboard to share one’s own related experience. For example, if Monica talks about the great vacation she had visiting the Grand Canyon, and Alyssa jumps in with “I was there too, about seven years ago with my family. The best part for me on that trip was….” Yeah, that’s not good. We’ve gone from Monica having the floor to Alyssa taking it away from her.
To keep the topics of conversation to a minimum, notice if people are asking questions, especially follow-up questions. This tends to keep interactions focused. It’s all part of good listening and people refraining from sharing every thought that pops into their heads.
Finally, watch for how the conversation ends.
Notice how the conversation endsAs a conversation begins to wind down, do you end up wanting more, or are you glad to can move on to other things? Janet and I were at a Bible study recently and during a break in the study, we were in conversation with a friend who brought up a podcast she was listening to from John Eldridge. She was talking about how men and women look at Valentine’s Day differently and how Eldridge had a panel of men sharing their views. She was quite interested in the male perspective and how it compared to her own. But then our break ended and we had to return to the Bible study.
But I wanted to know more. I think every meaningful conversation ends with some form of “I want to know more.”
Boring conversations, however, often end with, “Thank goodness that’s over.”
What to do nextSo there you have it , five things to watch for in your next conversation with friends. When we get good at noticing the things I’ve mentioned, there are steps we can take to make for more meaningful conversations.
Quickly, here they are:
Don’t bring up something you’ve talked about many times before because you haven’t dealt with the emotions about the issue. Don’t be an airplane circling the airport for hours on end. Land the plane. Let the other person speak. Don’t be the one who does all the talking. Drop the monologue. Get others engaged. Ask questions. Follow-up questions. Comment on the feelings connected with the head issues in your interaction. Talk about the emotion. It will make for a more meaningful conversation. What’s on our heart is really important. Don’t ignore it. Stick to one issue in a conversation as long as possible. Don’t change the subject. Keep the spotlight on the other person. Let them have the floor. They may need to talk more to process what’s on their heart. Stick to one topic. Your turn will come later. Leave people wanting more. Be intriguing to others. Bring up topics or make statements that engage others. Do what you can to make for a meaningful conversation that others don’t want to see end. ClosingWell that’s about it for today. I have links at the bottom of the show notes to past episodes related to today’s topic. I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to watch for the things you can do to create more meaningful conversations with the people close to you.
Because when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
As we wrap things up now, don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows021: The Most Important Relationship of All
067: Self-Monitoring How We Listen
094: Self-Awareness Deepens Our Relationships
115: Become More Self-Aware in 2021
Latest prior episode212: Little Things We Do Matter the Most to People
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider donating to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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The older I get the more I’ve come to appreciate how it’s the little things we do for people that matter most to them. Little things that come naturally for us because of how God uniquely made us,
I’ve got a few stories for you today to illustrate this point. Stories that I hope will inspire you to bless others in ways that are easy and natural for you. But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it.
The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
Today’s episodeIf you’re a regular around here you may recall that our most recent podcast episode, no. 211, was my “Men With Waffles” story. Click here if you missed
A Men’s Breakfast Like No Other. It’s the story of how 5 men who each received a waffle maker for Christmas got together one Saturday morning to make waffles for the guys in our adult Sunday School class.
As part of the breakfast they each wrote down on a large sheet of newsprint one thing they appreciated about their wife. I took photos of the whole event, including individual shots of each guy holding the paper describing what they wrote about their wife. Then I made a slide presentation of the photos and showed it to our Sunday school class the next morning. The ladies loved it.
The photo that evoked the most oohs and ahs was of Allen. It’s the one you see at the top of the show notes for today’s episode.
Little things we say can mean a lotAllen simply wrote, “I appreciate Carol.” As I described in the episode, he was the quietest man in our church. While he was a man of few of words, each one of them counted. I don’t know about you, but I’m drawn to people like this.
While our men with waffles breakfast is so vivid in my mind that it seems like a recent event, it actually took place in March of 2011. So much has happened in the lives of the men at that breakfast since then.
Scott and his wife adopted a child. Randy took a new job that moved him to Pittsburgh. Bill completed his Ph.D. and moved first to California, then to Washington State. Brad finished his Ph.D. and took a job in Kansas, and then later moved to South Dakota for a different job. Gregg retired. Mike also retired and is now caring for his wife who recently suffered a debilitating stroke.
But the biggest change of all happened to Allen. Ten years later.
The day that changed everythingOn Sunday, March 7th, 2021 Allen went downstairs to the basement of the home where he and his wife Carol lived, together with their 16-year-old quadriplegic granddaughter Haily who is confined to a wheelchair.
It seemed to Carol that Allen had been in the basement doing some little thing for an unusually long time, so she called to him, “Allen?” There was no answer. She called again. Still no answer. So she went downstairs, and there discovered Allen lying on the floor, having suffered a massive fatal heart attack.
The funeral was held at our church, and I remember going up to Carol in the lobby. But before I could say anything, she began recounting to the people standing around here what happened to Allen on that fateful day a week or so before.
Carol was clearly in a state of shock. What is this going to mean to her and Haily, I thought. Will she be able to care for Haily by herself, given all that Allen did so lovingly to care for and raise their granddaughter? It’s what the whole church who knew Allen and Carol were thinking about. We were all in a state of shock.
Little things we do tell you a lot about a person’s characterIn the months that followed I periodically thought of Allen. I would remember watching him each Sunday morning pulling into a handicap stall in our church parking lot and sliding Haily out the rear ramp of their handicapped-equipped van.
He would push her in her wheelchair into church so quietly and with such ease. It was a little thing he did that mattered so much to Hailey and Carol.
So often when I saw Allen doing this I thought, That is a man who loves well.
I never heard him complain about the toll on him and Carol in caring for Haily.I should be more like him. I complain way too much.
Now I have not heard the story of why Haily’s parents were not raising her, but it didn’t matter. Allen and Carol, as her grandparents, have filled in the gap for what is missing in Haily’s life. And at a great sacrifice.
Fast forward to the breakfast I had with my friend Randy at the end of last year and the waffle he ordered. It reminded me again of Allen and our men with waffles breakfast that I talked about in the last episode.
Seeing Randy’s waffle prompted me to go back and look at the photos of that little event, especially the one of Allen declaring on a large piece of newsprint that he appreciated his wife, Carol. I had thought for a long time after Allen died that I should make a copy of that photo and give it to Carol. I had the file for it sitting on the desktop of my computer for at least a year with good intentions to act on my thought. But with pitiful procrastination for actually doing something about it.
Until just the other day.
A little thing in the mail prompted actionI got an email from Walgreens that they were having a sale on photo enlargements. I saw how easy it was to get a print enlargement of a digital photo. So I ordered an 8 x 10 canvas print of Allen wrapped around a 1-inch frame. It’s the photo you see at the top of the show notes. It didn’t cost much at all and it was done in 45 minutes. All I had to do was pick it up at the Walgreen's only a few miles away.
A few days later I put it in a small gift bag and took it over to Carol and Haily’s house. I was a little apprehensive because I thought what if they moved and someone else is living in at the address I had for them? I didn’t want to call or email, so I took a chance and drove it over there.
Once I got to the house I recognized the van Allen used to take Haily places, which made my concern evaporate.
Nobody's homeI rang the front doorbell, but there was no answer, so I went to the side of the house along the driveway looking for another door. At the back of the house I found a door that had a ramp attached to it, which I assumed was where they got Haily into and out of the house. I couldn’t get to the door because the ramp was up about 3 feet off the ground, so I placed the gift bag with the photo on the ramp. It seemed safe to leave it there, as there was no rain or snow in the forecast and surely Carol would find it. So I left.
But then on the way home, I wondered if she would find it. What if she and Haily were out of town? Maybe I should call or email Carol. I tried both, but there was no answer to my call, and I had the wrong email address. This is nuts, I thought. Just let it go. She’ll find it. Move on to the other things you’ve got going.
You never know how the little things we do will bless othersThe next day I received a message at 1:35 pm through our podcast website
from Carol. She gave me permission to share it with you. The subject line read “A Thankful Heart,” and the body of her message reads as follows:
Just want to tell you how much you blessed me by such a wonderful act of kindness that the Lord knew I much needed. It has been hard lately, getting older alone and taking care of Hailey alone and trying so hard to be what God would want me to be for such a time as this.
I opened it and sat and cried, but they were good tears. Dale called (that’s one of her kids) and soon we were both crying - thank you so much for remembering myself and Allen. I miss him more than words could convey, he was such a good man. He is missed each and every day.
That wonderful picture will be on my fireplace forever. I was going to call you, but it is hard to talk with the tears that keep coming. It will be 3 years on March 7th, but feels like so long and yet just yesterday. I can't wait to see him again. l pray the Lord bless you both as you have blessed me.~ God bless you, love Carol and Hailey
Then a few hours later on my way out the door for an appointment, Carol called to thank me verbally for the print of Allen. She was a little choked up and through her tears told me again how much she appreciated what I did.
How neighbors remember AllenHer grief was palpable as she told me several stories from neighbors about the impact Allen had on them. One was from a woman who couldn’t get her snowblower started, and when Allen noticed it he offered to fix it. He went and got the needed parts to get it up and running. After he fixed it she offered to pay him, but Allen wouldn’t accept any money.
Another time Allen noticed a neighbor was having a hard time straightening up a small wall that had fallen in his backyard. “I don’t know what I’m doing,” the neighbor said. But Allen did. So he spent the better part of a day helping the man with his problem, and again he wouldn’t accept any payment for his troubles.
“I like helping people,” Allen told the neighbor.
These two stories are just samples of how Allen blessed others. What were little things to him, these acts of service that came naturally for him, were things that greatly impacted people. Things they were willing to pay for.
I mentioned to Carol that the thing that struck me the most in her message to me was when she said he was such a good man. He is missed each and every day.
Allen and Joseph, father of JesusI said that her phrase “he was such a good man” is the way Matthew, the Gospel writer, describes Joseph, the early father of Jesus. He was a good man too. And Joseph was quiet, also. Just like Allen. He was a behind-the-scenes kind of guy, just like Allen. They were both cut from the same cloth.
One of my all-time favorite episodes of this podcast is one I did a few years ago at Christmas, number 135 entitled Christmas with a Good Man Brings Joy. It’s about Joseph, and now that I know more about Allen, it’s about men like him, too. I’ll have a link to it at the bottom of the show notes.
What I learnedThis episode about Allen has taught me a few things. Here are some of them:
It doesn’t take much to bless others. We underestimate the power of little things to make an impact in people’s lives. Good intentions don’t mean anything unless they result in good actions. There are good men out there like Allen. We just have to be observant to notice and appreciate them We can all be like Allen. Probably not in repairing snowblowers or fixing a fallen wall, but we can use the abilities God has wired into each of us to make the world a better place. Doing good for others, like Allen did, reflects the image and character of God. It doesn’t get much better than that. It’s a great way to liveI’ll close with an updated version of the main point of episode 135, it’s the one I mentioned about Joseph, the father of Jesus:
A good man is hard to find. But they’re out there, men like Allen often in the background, not saying much. Their character and behavior tell us more than their words. Look for them. Be like them.
ClosingAs we close up shop for today, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to do something small for someone. Something that comes easily and naturally for you.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. Like Allen did. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows135: Christmas with a Good Man Brings Joy
139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
The prior and most recent episode211: A Men’s Breakfast Like No Other
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider donating to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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A men’s breakfast can be fun and still have a greater purpose than eating and conversation. When organized with a larger objective in mind it can be a great way to bless people and a means to live out the Gospel.
Today’s episode is about my Men with Waffles breakfast and the impact it had on others not even in the room. Especially women.
Breakfast with a friendA few weeks ago my friend Randy was in town for the Christmas holiday. We used to go to the same church, but his job change meant a move to Pittsburgh. He and his wife are still closely connected with friends they have back in Wisconsin where I live, and they try to get back here at least once a year to see everyone.
Before Randy got to town he texted me and asked if we could meet during his Christmas visit to Wisconsin. It’s always an invitation I cannot turn down. So we got together for breakfast one morning. We caught up on each other’s lives in ways that seemed like he had never moved away, even though it’s been almost 9 years. That’s the way it is with good friends you haven’t seen in a while.
When it came time to order, I chose eggs. Randy ordered a waffle.
This unimportant event reminded me of waffles in a more significant context that Randy and I were part of several years ago. I’ll you about it. It’s my Men with Waffles story.
This calls for a men's breakfastIt happened during the time I was teaching an adult Sunday school class at our church. Randy and his wife Kathy were part of that class. My story picks up after the class took a break for Christmas one year. We resumed shortly after the new year, and at the beginning of that first class of the year, we chatted about how everyone’s Christmas went. It was then we all discovered something unusual.
Five men in our class of about 30-35 received a waffle maker for a Christmas gift. All of the waffle maker recipients were husbands, which to me seemed a high parentage of the class to have received this uncommon Christmas gift. I don’t think any of the wives collaborated on these gifts for their husbands.
Although I did hear a rumor of an unmarked white box car parked near the church one day, selling shrimp, pictures of Elvis on black velvet, and … waffle makers. It’s just a rumor, so don’t quote me on it.
Anyway, here we have 5 guys with brand-new waffle makers. It just seemed fitting that we needed to do something to note this out-of-the-ordinary event. So I talked it over with my wife, Janet, and got her okay to host a men’s breakfast at our house where the 5 men with their new waffle makers would bring them and make waffles for all the guys in our class.
Event planningWe set a date for a Saturday morning that most all of the men could attend. Those with the waffle makers were to bring them and all the necessary ingredients to serve everyone. In addition to waffle batter, guys brought fresh strawberries, whipped cream, sausages, and orange juice. I supplied coffee, plates, and utensils.
It was a feast!
In planning for this men's breakfast, I wanted to add a little structure to it that went beyond just men with waffles sitting around and talking for a few hours about what men usually talk about when women aren’t around. You know, their children, their mother, and what they were making for supper that night. Things like that.
So here’s what I did. I set up an easel with a flip chart with pages of blank butcher paper about 2½ by 3’ in size. And before we started the waffle extravaganza, I said to the guys something along the lines of
Sometime this morning, in between eating your waffles, I’d like each of you to come over to this easel, take a marker and write down on the butcher paper one thing you appreciate about your wife. One sheet of paper per guy, then rip off the paper when you’re done. When we finish eating we’ll go around and each person gets to share what they wrote.
With that, the waffle-making commenced. I thought the men who were not making waffles would come over right away to write something on the paper. They didn’t. not one.
Was this men's breakfast a mistake?“Oh great, I thought. This is surely going to bomb. They just want their waffles and nothing more. What was I thinking? How embarrassing. What a dumb idea.”
Well, at least the waffle makers will get a proper inauguration, and everyone will be fed, I thought. I must say, the waffles with all the trimmings were magnificent! My friend Randy was there and he will testify to it. They were far more impressive than the waffle he ordered at our recent breakfast.
I made sure to take photos of the whole event. I’d be happy to show them to you after dinner at your house sometime. Wednesdays work best for me, though I’m flexible. The last time I mentioned this one of our listeners actually had Janet and me for a delicious soup supper. It was on a Saturday evening, so you see I am flexible.
Anyway, as we were eating and talking I tried not to think about how no one was going over to the easel to write anything. But then to my relief, the guys did start to trickle over to the easel to do what I asked, like slow drops of water dripping off an icicle on your roof when its 34 degrees outside.
What husbands wroteSlowly, one by one they came. Each one writing down one thing they appreciated about their wife, then ripping off the paper and rolling it up to take with them.
As we finished eating our waffles (did I mention it was a gastronomic delight?) and then cleaning up the kitchen, we found our way into our living room. With everyone seated, I then asked each guy to show what they wrote.
Mike wrote, “I appreciate how Vicki plans fun things and makes everything more fun!”
Bill wrote, “I love Rachel’s tender lovingkindness”
Scott’s butcher paper read in big bold letters, “I appreciate how Marci makes me laugh after a stressful day t work.”
Dick wrote this about his wife, “I appreciate Kathy for her loving and caring nature.”
Gregg’s sheet of paper read, “I appreciate Marian’s sense of adventure and insights into relationships.”
Another Mike in our group wrote, “I appreciate Gail’s sense of humor and her ability to make me laugh.”
Brad wrote, “I appreciate Elizabeth’s steadiness and her reality check.”
Randy, our friend who later moved to Pittsburgh, wrote, “I appreciate Kathy’s genuine faith and her love for our daughter Molly.”
And then I wrote, “I appreciate Janet’s sky blue eyes, her wisdom, and her love for our kids and grandchildren.
There was one more from Allen, which I will tell you about in a minute.
After everyone shared what they appreciated about their wives, guys hung around for a while and then left.
The men’s breakfast aftermathWith everyone gone, I then went through all the photos I took and arranged them in a slide presentation to show the next morning in our Sunday School class so the wives could see what their husbands wrote. There were photos of making the waffles, candid shots of men sitting around talking, and most importantly, an individual photo of each husband holding up a large piece of paper on which he wrote something he appreciated about his wife.
To the photos in the slideshow, I added a soundtrack. A recording of the late Nat King Cole singing “Unforgettable,” with his daughter Natalie Cole dubbed in to accompany him to create a romantic ballad duet.
So imagine you’re a woman in this class and you see this slide presentation of what these men wrote, accompanied by Natalie Cole and her late father singing “Unforgettable.”
So many “oohs” and “ah’s.” The loudest of which came at the end when the photo of Allen appeared and what he appreciated about his wife. Allen was a man of few words. I think it’s fair to say he was the quietest man in our church. On his butcher paper he wrote in large bold letters simply, “I appreciate Carol.”
He couldn’t bring himself to name just one thing he appreciated about his wife, it was Carol in her totality that he appreciated. The ladies loved it.
A men’s breakfast with a purposeNow you might be thinking why would I do such a thing? I mean what does our men with waffles breakfast have to do with church and studying the bible? My answer is everything. Everything in the 12th chapter of the Book of Romans, especially verse 10 where the apostle Paul writes, “Love each other with genuine affection and take delight in honoring each other.”
Our class had been studying Romans 12 and what we did at our men with waffles breakfast was one way we could honor the wives in our class - to express what we appreciate about them.
So how about you?There are so many ways we can honor people. It benefits the other person, certainly. But it also can bring a measure of delight into the person doing the honoring.
It’s another way to spread a little relational sunshine around the people we meet. It sparks joy in both them and you. Above all, it reflects the character of God. It’s part of God’s character to bless us, to affirm us, and we can do the same thing with others.
And you don’t have to organize a men's breakfast like I did. You can honor someone like Randy did with me by saying, “Hey, you want to get together? I’d like to spend some time with you.” It’s that simple. And it’s that profound.
ClosingAs we close up shop for today, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to think of a way you can bless and honor someone by telling them what you appreciate about them.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And of course, especially this week, don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows172: How to Develop Deeper Relationships
139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Prior and most recent episode210: Word of the Year for 2024: Curious
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider donating to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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CURIOUS. It’s my pick for the 2024 Word of the Year. Curious. It’s an important relational skill we need to help us deepen our relationships with others.
Today’s episode is about what happens when we’re not curious about people, and what we can do about it to strengthen our relational curiosity muscles that will enrich our relationships.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it.
The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
Missed opportunities when we’re not curious about peopleI’m just about finished reading David Brooks’ latest book, How to Know a Person - The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen. He’s a columnist for The New York Times and The Atlantic, and also a commentator you see every now on then on the PBS NewsHour.
I’m really enjoying his book and gave several copies of it to family members this past Christmas. At some point down the road I’ll do a review of the whole book, but for now, I’ll mention one paragraph that jumped out at me. The author tells the story of what happened to him at a dinner party when he was engaged in conversation with some interesting people.
Brooks mentioned conversations like this come naturally to him because his job as a journalist involves interviewing people, asking them questions, and otherwise drawing them out. After the party on the way home, he was reflecting on the conversations he had. And while they were certainly fascinating, they left him feeling empty.
He commented that here he was asking all kinds of questions of these interesting people, but no one was curious about anything in his life. No one asked him any questions at all. Not one. Nada. Zilch.
He didn’t mention it in this context, but Brooks as a columnist for two world-class publications, the author of several best-selling books, and a TV commentator - has lived a fascinating life himself. He’s traveled the world in connection with his job and has interviewed several US presidents and rulers of other countries. Yet no one was curious to ask him any questions.
How sad for Brooks, and even sadder for the people he engaged with at the party. They missed out.
“I’m curious about them, but they’re not with me”Shortly after I read this section in Brooks’ book, one of my grandsons shared a similar story. A few months ago he started his first job out of college in a position he really loves. Plus, he is enjoying getting to know the people he works with. He is much younger than any of his colleagues, but they have taken him under their wings. Two women in particular go walking together on their lunch hour and they invited my grandson to join them. He describes his relationship with these ladies like this:
“I don’t think they realize how much younger I am than them [he’s 21]. They’re probably in their late 30s or early 40s and have been doing the same job I’m doing for a dozen years or so. They’re both moms with young kids in school. And they tell me about all the drama that goes on in their families with their kids. They’re fun people and I enjoy the time we walk together.
“But they don’t know one thing about me. They never ask me anything about my life.”
My grandson is a genuinely curious person. He’s always asking me questions about what’s going on in my life, and I can easily picture him asking his colleagues about theirs. He’s quite an engaging person so I can see why they invited him on their walks. These are good people he works with, but they’re missing out on learning how a person so different from themselves experiences the world.
“I’ve even killed people”Then there’s my friend Dick at our church.
We’re a small group, about 25 of us. As part of our Sunday morning service, after the sermon we discuss what the preacher talked about. The discussions are often lively and quite interesting as people share their experiences as they relate to the sermon.
One Sunday not too long ago, the post-sermon discussion centered on the grace of God. Our little congregation has varying levels of understanding about this topic, based on what people experienced in other churches they’ve attended in the past.
Near the end of this particular discussion, my friend Dick chimed in. He’s in frail health, walks with a cane, and has breathing and balance difficulties. He comes to church with a caregiver who looks after him. When he arrives a couple of the women in our group always give him a big hug. His smile lights up the room when they do. Anyway, in a moment of vulnerability here’s what Dick said in our discussion:
“I’m 94 years old and all the things people have just shared are things I’ve been through myself, and more. But no one ever asks me about them. I mean, I’ve even killed people.”
It was a sad moment. A sad moment for our church because Dick has wisdom and experience to share if only people were curious enough to ask. Just saying this reminds me I need to act on my curiosity and engage with Dick more. I’m certainly interested in his perspective on the spiritual issues we talk about on Sunday morning, but I’m also curious about his personal life. He grew up during the Depression of the 1930s and I wonder what that was like for him. Oh, and then there’s that small matter of his comment, “I’ve even killed people.”
A different kind of law professorI’ll leave you with one last story about being curious. It’s a positive one about
another grandson of mine. Our family was together on Christmas Day and we were catching up on each other’s lives. My grandson George had just completed his first semester of law school and we were asking him how it went. He talked about each of his courses and the professors who taught them. One of his professors in particular impressed me. George explained him like this:
“He memorized every one of our names, and there were 75 of us in the class. He taught two other classes and he did the same thing for those, too.
“Then he had each of us come to his office individually over the course of the semester for a short meeting. He said he just wanted to get to know us better. He asked us about our personal lives, our interests, things like that.
“And we got to ask him questions, too. I asked him how he got interested in law in the first place. Then I found out he had a couple of young children, and he told me about his wife, her love of plants, and that he was a big Green Bay Packers fan. No other professor does this. He’s ranked #2 of all the law school professors on that student-rated website.”
I’m really happy George has someone like this in his life, and I hope he gets this same professor again for another class. Not just because he was curious enough to find out more about George as a person, but also because he modeled for him what a relationally intelligent person does. They are curious about the lives of people they interact with.
But if I’m curious and ask people questions won’t they think I’m being nosy?I’ll let David Brooks answer this question from his book I mentioned earlier, How to Know a Person. In his chapter entitled “The Right Questions” he writes,
“While doing research for this book, I interviewed many people - seminar leaders, conversation facilitators, psychologists and focus group moderators, biographers and journalists - whose job is to ask people about their lives. I asked these experts how often somebody looks back at them and says,
‘None of your d- - - business.’ Every expert I consulted had basically the same answer: ‘Almost never.’”
The author goes on to say, “A 2012 study by Harvard neuroscientists found that people often took more pleasure from sharing information about themselves than from receiving money.” Let that thought sink in for a moment. People often took more pleasure from sharing information about themselves than from receiving money.
Brooks concludes with “Over the course of my career as a journalist I, too, have found that if you respectfully ask people about themselves, they will answer with candor that takes your breath away.
“Studs Terkel was a journalist who collected oral histories over his long career in Chicago. He’d ask people big questions and then sit back and let their answers unfold. ‘Listen, listen, listen, listen, and if you do, people will talk,’ he once observed. ‘They always talk. Why? Because no one has ever listened to them before in all their lives. Perhaps they’ve not ever listened to themselves.’
“Each person is a mystery. And when you are surrounded by mysteries, as the saying goes, it’s best to live life in the form of a question.”
What a beautiful way of describing such a profound observation about the human condition. It takes my breath away.
So what about you?How curious are you about the people in your life, and do you act on that curiosity? For me, I know now that I need to act on my curiosity about Dick, my 94-year-old-friend from church. I’ve got to find out where his “I’ve killed people” comment comes from. Not just for my benefit, but for his. There’s a story locked up within him somewhere that needs to get out to see the light of day.
Imagine what the world would be like if we were all a little more curious about each other. I’m convinced we’d all live deeper and richer lives.
So there you have it for the word of the year for 2024. Curious.
I’ll be coming back to this word and relational skill in future episodes this year. For now, though, at the bottom of the show notes I’ve listed links to past episodes that touch up the topic of curiosity that you might want to check out.
ClosingIn closing, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to become more curious about the people around you, and then to act on that curiosity.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows062: Vaccine Now Available for this Relational Virus
063: Six Reasons Why We’re Not More Curious About People
073: Could Curiosity About Others Minimize Racism?
The most recent episodes209: The Christmas Story in 2023
208: Christmas - A Time to Reflect
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. Please consider making a donation to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world.
You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here. You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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When you get right down to it, the only thing that really matters in the Christmas story in 2023 is Jesus. No Santa, gifts, or Bing Crosby. Just Jesus.
Here's the original story as recorded in Luke's Gospel, just as it happened. I am reading from The Message, by Eugene Peterson. Luke 2: 1-20
The Birth of JesusAbout that time Caesar Augustus ordered a census to be taken throughout the Empire. This was the first census when Quirinius was governor of Syria. Everyone had to travel to his own ancestral hometown to be accounted for. So Joseph went from the Galilean town of Nazareth up to Bethlehem in Judah, David’s town, for the census. As a descendant of David, he had to go there. He went with Mary, his fiancée, who was pregnant.
While they were there, the time came for her to give birth. She gave birth to a son, her firstborn. She wrapped him in a blanket and laid him in a manger, because there was no room in the hostel.
An Event for EveryoneThere were shepherds camping in the neighborhood. They had set night watches over their sheep. Suddenly, God’s angel stood among them and God’s glory blazed around them. They were terrified. The angel said, “Don’t be afraid. I’m here to announce a great and joyful event that is meant for everybody, worldwide: A Savior has just been born in David’s town, a Savior who is Messiah and Master. This is what you’re to look for: a baby wrapped in a blanket and lying in a manger.”
At once the angel was joined by a huge angelic choir singing God’s praises:
Glory to God in the heavenly heights,
Peace to all men and women on earth who please him.As the angel choir withdrew into heaven, the shepherds talked it over. “Let’s get over to Bethlehem as fast as we can and see for ourselves what God has revealed to us.” They left, running, and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in the manger. Seeing was believing. They told everyone they met what the angels had said about this child. All who heard the shepherds were impressed.
Mary kept all these things to herself, holding them dear, deep within herself. The shepherds returned and let loose, glorifying and praising God for everything they had heard and seen. It turned out exactly the way they’d been told!
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Merry Christmas 2023, everyone.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows208: Christmas - A Time to Reflect
207: How to Help the People We Love at Christmas
Blog post: The Joy of Christmas Past
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. The generosity of people like you supports our ministry. It enables us to continue this weekly podcast and other services we provide to missionaries around the world.
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There are many cultural dimensions to all that is Christmas. Pick your favorite. I have a few that I look forward to every year. But as I get older, I’m seeing Christmas more as a great time to reflect on my relationship with Jesus.
In Luke’s gospel, for example, I’m especially drawn to the mother of Jesus, Mary, and how she reflects upon the birth of her son and all that it means to her, both in the present and the future. There are things we can learn from Mary as she takes time to reflect on this most important event in all of history.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
To set the scene for when Mary took time to reflect on all that happened at the first Christmas, I’ll read a few verses from Luke’s gospel that tell the story.
They’re the ones that occur right after Mary gave birth to Jesus. An angel of the Lord had just appeared to a group of shepherds who were on the job out in the fields tending to their sheep. God’s glory surrounded all of them, having appeared out of nowhere. Quite naturally the shepherds were terrified for they had never seen anything like this.
But the angel, a messenger from God, reassured them and told them there’s nothing to be afraid of because he was there to simply announce that Jesus. the savior, the Messiah the Lord. had been born in Bethlehem. Other angels then appear filling the sky and praising God. What a majestic sight that must have been.
After the angels leaveWe’ll pick up the story in chapter 2 of Luke’s Gospel, verse 15. Luke writes:
When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”
So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.
It’s this last line that has captained me lately, But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.
Two important actions going onThere are two important verbs in the sentence I just read, “treasured” and “pondered.” at least that’s how the New International translation renders them. Other translations use the phrase “Mary kept all these things in her heart” rather than “treasure.”
For the verb “Pondered,” other translations use “thought about them often.”
But the translation I like best is the New International Bible Reader’s Version which translates Luke 2:19 like this,
But Mary kept all these things like a secret treasure in her heart. She thought about them over and over.
What are the “these things” of ChristmasRegardless of how you translate the two verbs in this verse, the noun phrase that is the object of the first sentence in the verse is always translated the same, “these things.”
But what are the things Mary was keeping, or treasuring, and pondering or thinking about over and over? It’s one of the beautiful mysteries of the Christmas story that’s worth taking the time to reflect upon.
I imagine Mary obviously reflecting upon what the shepherds told her about the angel of the Lord appearing to them and how terrifying it was. But how their fear turned to joy when the angel told them not to be afraid because
Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.
What a comforting independent confirmation that what the angel Gabriel told Mary when he visited her 9 months earlier was actually true! This truth alone is like a treasure worth appreciating over and over again. What Gabriel told her wasn’t something she just imagined. The sky was full of angels confirming this was all true.
But there are a few other less obvious “these things”The “all these things” phrase Luke uses in describing Mary’s response to what is happening, implies different layers to what Mary is experiencing. One layer I imagine is Mary taking time to reflect upon her relationship with her elderly relative Elizabeth.
Imagine these two improbable pregnancies. One to someone too old to bear a child, and the other to a virgin. This was certainly something to treasure and think about often. It would naturally draw Mary to God and his amazing ways in accomplishing his purposes.
Author Anne Lamont would describe this layer to the Christmas story, in the most reverent of tones, as “God showing off.” It’s one of her favorite expressions.
It makes me wonder about the improbable things God has done in your life. What things has he done for you that’s worthy of treasuring?
JosephAnd then there’s Mary’s husband Joseph. Another layer to the Christmas story. I imagine Mary sitting there in the cave with the baby Jesus looking at Joseph and treasuring her relationship with him. I picture her taking time to reflect on where they’ve come from in their time together. We don’t know how old Joseph was, but we’re pretty sure Mary was probably 14 or 15 years old. Maybe they went to high school together.
They were both from the small backwater town of Nazareth, which had a lot going against it in terms of its reputation. Remember one of Jesus’ disciples remarking, “can anything good come out of Nazareth?”
While I imagine Mary was the subject of a lot of gossip surrounding her pre-marital pregnancy, she had to know Joseph dealt with the same thing. There was a cost to his reputation and standing in the community, too. Yet he stood by her and believed what Mary and the angel Gabriel told him - as implausible as it was. What woman wouldn’t want a husband like this?
Scripture doesn’t have a lot to say about Joseph, except that he was described as a “good man.” I did an earlier episode about him, episode no 135, “Christmas with a Good Man Brings Joy.” I’ll have a link to it at the bottom of the show notes in case you're interested. It’s one of my favorite Christmas episodes.
"All these men around my baby"Another layer to what Mary treasured and took time to reflect upon could very well have been the place of the shepherds in the birth of Jesus. If I were Mary, I’d wonder why all these men were here to see my baby. Birthing is typically a female kind of thing, but here are all these guys - Joseph and the shepherds. There’s not another lady to be found in the whole story. What gives with that?
Why are the shepherds even part of the Christmas story? Why couldn’t the angels appear to Mary and Joseph directly?
The answer to this question is another example of God showing off, in the best sense of the word. You see these shepherds were not the ordinary run-of-the-mill shepherd. They were actually temple priests who cared for a special flock of sheep used for the Passover celebration and other temple festivals where ceremonial sheep were sacrificed.
Each of these sheep were without any blemish or defect. They were as perfect as any sheep could be. Their one and only purpose was to one day be a perfect sacrifice. These perfect sheep were what the priestly shepherds were watching over the night the angels appeared to them.
The shepherds knew that one day they would be out of a job when the Messiah, the savior , the son of God would come to earth. They knew he would be the once and for all perfect sacrifice for all mankind. No more sheep. A one and done sacrifice. So no wonder they were excited when the angel appears to them out in their fields around Bethlehem to announce the birth of Jesus.
“For there is born to you today, in David’s city, a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.” Luke 2:11
Time to reflect on the futureMary knew all this, too. The role of these temple shepherds was well-known, So I’m sure Mary would be reflecting upon the similarity between what they cared for, and what she would be caring for. Jesus is described in several places as the “lamb of God.” His once and for all sacrifice would replace the system these shepherds were part of.
Imagine what it must have been like for Mary, as a teenager knowing that in 33 years the baby you just gave birth to would be offered up by God as a sacrifice to redeem all of mankind.
So what does all this mean for YOU?There was certainly no shortage of things for Mary to think about there besides her newborn baby. Lot’s of things to treasure and many things to reflect on, mull over, and ponder over and over again.
But what about you?
What about the role of Jesus in your life do you treasure? What are the layers of your relationships with him, that you think about from time to time? I encourage you to take time to reflect upon this.
You know this, I’m sure, but considering questions like these is so much more fulfilling than the other questions we usually ask at Christmas.
ClosingIn closing, I’d also love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to do what Mary did, to take time to reflect on your relationship with Jesus.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
The next time you hear my voice will be on Christmas Day when I read the entire Christmas story from Luke’s Gospel. It’s only 20 verses.
In the meantime don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows207: How to Help the People We Love At Christmas
139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
135: Christmas with a Good Man Brings Joy
Last week’s blog post: The Joy of Christmas Past
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider donating to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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In the 1947 classic Christmas film It’s a Wonderful Life!, George Bailey, played by Jimmy Stewart, goes through a tough time during Christmas in dealing with two serious financial problems caused by someone else. This most beloved and joyful man in all of Bedford Falls is overcome with depression, anger, hopelessness, and despair. In the midst of all this, George’s wife, Mary, steps in and shows us how to help the people we love when they are in a dark place, especially at Christmas It’s what today’s episode is all about.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
Christmas is all about relationshipsOf all the times of the year to find joy in our relationships, can there be a better time than Christmas? Christmas only exists because Jesus wants a relationship with us, and he came to earth to make that really clear to us.
There’s certainly joy in this relationship, and also in our relationships with friends and family. But sometimes things get in the way of experiencing the kind of relationship God designed for us with the people we love.
We see this so vividly in what I think is the greatest Christmas movie ever made, It’s a Wonderful Life! The film is overflowing with many different kinds of relationship struggles. But in the end, it leaves you feeling good about being alive in community with other people.
I like this movie so much that I did an entire podcast on seven relationship lessons we learn from It’s a Wonderful Life! It’s episode 045 and I’ll have a link to it at the bottom of today’s show notes.
It’s a Wonderful Life! in a nutshellIf it’s been a while since you saw the film, or if you’ve never seen It’s a Wonderful Life!, here’s a brief summary of the plot:
The main character, George Bailey, played by Jimmy Stewart, grew up in a small town by the name of Bedford Falls prior to WWII. From the time he was young, George was a very popular, engaging person, well-liked by everyone.
Small-town life was not for him, however. He talked often about his dream of traveling to far-away places where he would work as an engineer to build big things, like skyscrapers and bridges.
George grew up in a loving family where his father and uncle ran the Bailey Brothers Building & Loan, a business in competition with the bank in town owned by the antagonist in the movie, Henry Potter. “Old man Potter” as he was called. At one point George’s father, Peter Bailey, died suddenly and George took over the Building & Loan.
The plan was that once George’s brother Harry graduated from college, he would take over the Building & Loan, so George could leave Bedford Falls to pursue an education and his dreams.
But things didn’t turn out as planned. Harry returns from college, not just with a diploma, but also with a wife and a job out of town with his father-in-law. All this leaves George with the responsibility of running the Building & Loan, causing him to feel all the more trapped, which is a major theme of the movie.
Money set aside for a honeymoonGeorge ends up getting married to a woman named Mary. On their wedding day and on their way out of town for their honeymoon, there’s a run on the bank. This was not unusual during the Depression of the 1930s, which is when the movie takes place. Everyone wanted to withdraw their savings in cash, but there’s not enough money to pay out the withdrawals. Mary sees what’s going on and turns over to George all the wedding money and savings she and George have saved for their honeymoon. George then uses it to pay out the cash withdrawals.
This is the first example we see from Mary of how to help the people we love when they are going through a rough time. How many women do you know would sacrifice their once-in-a-lifetime romantic vacation to help her husband solve a problem at work? Not many.
Most women would say something along the lines of, “This is our wedding day and we’re leaving for our honeymoon. Let your co-workers deal with the problem. They’ll understand. Aren’t I more important than your job, your business?
But that’s not Mary. She sacrifices her desires and her resources to help the person she loves. Sometimes to help the people we love we have to set aside our dreams. And sometimes to help the people we love will cost us financially.
Investing in relationshipsThis run on the bank that George and Mary are dealing with is an interesting metaphor for relationships. Just as deposits we make with our money into financial institutions, we also make “deposits” in our relationships. George Bailey had certainly done that with the relationships he developed and fostered in Bedford Falls. The movie shows how he invested in people, and the things he did to help people who needed help. Watch for it the next time you see the movie. I’ll comment more on this in a few minutes.
But I wonder about you and me. To what extent are we investing in relationships, where we pour ourselves into being there for other people? Will we have enough in our relationship account that there will be something to withdraw when we need help?
Another problem at workAfter the problem with the run on the bank is solved. Another work-related problem arises like the whack-a-mole game you play at the fair. On Christmas Eve Uncle Billy misplaces $8,000 worth of deposits right as a bank examiner shows up for an audit. In today’s dollars adjusted for inflation, this would amount to about $110,000.
If the money isn’t found, it will mean bankruptcy, scandal, and jail time for George. He’s beside himself with fear, and it brings out the worst in him. The rest of the film shows how George goes about dealing with this problem, and how others deal with George. If ever there was a movie about relationships, this would be it.
For example, at one point in the film George tries to help Uncle Billy remember where he left the money. But he gets impatient, roughs up Uncle Billy, and calls him “a silly old fool.”
George then comes home in his irritated, fearful state and yells at his kids. He makes one of them cry, in fact. At which point Mary steps in to protect her children. She positions herself in front of the kids and confronts George very sternly with “George, why must you torture the children? Why don’t you…”
A change in behaviorBefore this scene, Mary observed this marked change in behavior in her husband and asked him “What’s wrong?” George doesn’t answer, in part because I think he’s trying to protect his wife from work problems, and in part because he’s confused by his own anger and rage.
Mary is puzzled by George because it’s not like him to be so angry. But she doesn’t give up on George when he doesn’t answer her “what’s wrong?” question. She reflects in her mind what might be the problem. George didn’t go to work that morning angry at the world, so it’s logical to consider that maybe something happened at work to set him off. George isn’t any help in figuring out the problem, so Mary logically and wisely calls someone who works with George to see if he might know. It’s one thing you can do to help someone you love.
She picks up the phone and asks the operator to call Bedford 247. And guess who answers? Uncle Billy.
Now we don’t hear what Mary says to Uncle Billy. But by the end of the movie we find out.
George gets help for dealing with his problemAfter George walks out the door after yelling at his kids we see him encounter Clarence Oddbody AS2 (Angel 2nd class). He’s sent by God to help George put his problem in perspective and to realize the impact he’s had on people. It’s interesting that God doesn’t send Clarence the angel to solve George’s problem, but rather that despite his problems it truly is a wonderful life that George has been living.
God still works like that today. Often not solving our problems, but always putting them in perspective in light of eternity and God’s purposes for our life.
Bold action to help the people we loveGetting back to Mary and her phone call to Uncle Billy. After George’s encounter with Clarence Oddbody, Angel second class, he returns home a new man. Oh so grateful to be alive and even at peace with the potential consequences of the misplaced $8,000 of deposits.
It’s here we see what Mary and Uncle Billy talked about in their phone call. She now tells George, “It’s a miracle, George! It’s a miracle!” Then Uncle Billy walks through their front door with a large wicker laundry basket, sets it on a folding table, and tells George one of the key lines in the movie in an excited tone.
“Mary did it, George! Mary did it! She scoured all over town telling people you were in trouble…” With that, crowds of people come pouring through the front door with cash to put in the basket.
What a bold action on Mary’s part. Sometimes to help the people we love we have to step out of our comfort zone and ask other people to help us care for the one we love. Sometimes we have to make withdrawals from our relational bank account. It’s just how it works.
What we’ve learned from Mary in It’s a Wonderful Life!Mary shows us that we can help the people we love who are going through difficult times by first observing any change in behavior. What’s different about them now, and when did the change happen? Often knowing when will give us further clues to help those we love.
We also learn from Mary how it’s important to reflect upon what might be causing the distress in the people we love. Be direct and ask them. They may not know themselves, but don’t give up. Probe further.
Take action as Mary did. Ask other people who may be in a position to know what the root of the problem is in the angst our loved one is experiencing. Call someone. Don’t text.
And then when you finally understand the heart of the problem. Take more action. Evaluate what you can do to help, and what you need from other people.
Finally, we learn from Mary that helping the people we love going through a really bad season is done behind the scenes. I love behind-the-scenes-people. They have no hidden agenda and they want to bring out the best in people. It’s never about them
So what does all this mean for YOU?How can you use what you’ve heard today to help you find more joy in the relationships in your life? Make it a goal to be a better observer of the important people in your life. Notice any changes in behavior. Then reflect upon what might possibly be causing those changes. Finally, take action. Do something that tries to help.
And like Mary in the movie, do all this behind the scenes. Be a behind-the-scenes person. It’s pretty fulfilling helping the people we love this way.
ClosingIn closing, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to consider how you can help the people you love this Christmas - behind the scenes.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. As we close up shop, please don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them, kind of like Mary did and all the people of Bedford Falls. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows045: Seven Relationship Lessons from the Greatest Christmas Movie Ever Made
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
A prior and most recent episode206: Thankful for the Stories of Others
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider making a donation to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also contribute by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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The Thanksgiving holiday will soon be upon us here in the US, so I’ve been reflecting on what I’m thankful for. And this year I’m thinking about things that goes beyond my family and good health. In considering this, I’ve come to realize that I’m especially thankful for the stories of others.
That’s because I’ve found that the stories of what other people have experienced often lift me out of myself. Listening to what others have been through, both good and bad, and how those experiences shaped them into the person they are today, have a way of neutralizing the difficulties and concerns I’m experiencing.
I’ve got a story for you today that illustrates this principle. A story that happened to me. I hope as you listen to it you too will be encouraged to listen to the stories of others and experience the benefits in doing so.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
Thankful for this story that didn’t start wellMy story starts on a late Friday afternoon at the end of the work week. I was still active full-time in my business, but this particular weekend Janet and I were headed to a missionary care conference in Gull Lake, Michigan.
When I got home from the office that day I hurriedly loaded up the car with our luggage, anxious to get on the road for the 4½ hour drive to the conference. Getting there required driving through Chicago during rush hour. Lots of bumper-to-bumper and stop-and-go traffic through the city’s congested highways. It was nerve-wracking.
We finally reached the conference grounds late at night, registered, and got our room key. As I began unloading the car with the clothes we packed I realized I had left half of them at home.
Oh great, I thought. We’re going to have to wear the same clothes for the entire weekend. Couple that with the late hour, and the nerve-wracking drive through Chicago, my irritability score was off the charts.
It didn’t get any better the next morning as I didn’t get much sleep that night. Lack of sleep. The long drive through Chicago traffic. No change of clothes all contributed to my over-the-moon crabbiness.
A not-so-thankful-start to the dayThe first scheduled event for Saturday morning was breakfast in the dining hall of the conference center. Janet and I grabbed a tray and made it through the line with our breakfast selections and then looked for a place to sit.
I was still feeling so irritable that I didn’t was to sit with anyone else attending the conference. It wouldn’t be fair to them to sit with someone as crabby as I was that morning. So we spotted a few empty tables in the far reaches of the room and headed there to spend a quiet breakfast away from anyone.
It wasn’t long though, before I spotted an older man slowly heading toward us with his tray of food. “Oh no. Please no,” I thought. He’s going to sit with us and we’re going to have to eat breakfast together. And we’re going to have to talk with him. Yikes!
There was no getting around it. There was no place to hide. We were stuck.
Thankful for an unusual breakfast companionThe elderly man sat down with his tray across the table from me. We exchanged pleasantries, commented on the weather, and then he asked us where we were from. I told him and then following his lead I asked,
“How about you? Where are you from?”
“I came here from Detroit,” but I was a pastor in Canada for many years. I’m retired now,” he replied.
Hmm, I thought. His answer surprised me a bit because in our brief conversation so far I detected an accent in his speech. He sounded European and not like any Canadian I had ever known. We made more small talk and then I asked him,
“You seem to have an accent, European I’m guessing. Were you born there?”
“Oh, yes,” he said. I was born in Holland and lived there until I was 19 before I moved to Canada,” he replied.
Hmm, I thought again. I’m guessing our new breakfast companion was probably in his early 80s, which turned on my mental calculator and prompted me to ask another question based on his age and my knowledge of history.
Thankful that one question often leads to another“Were you by any chance living in Holland during World War II? I asked.
His eyes lit up, and with a smile, he responded with a simple but spirited, “Yes!”
I continued with, “And were you still living there when Germany invaded and took over your country?”
“I was,” he said.
By this time in our conversation I suddenly realized I’m talking with someone who was an eyewitness to one of the most significant and awful events of the 20th century. I didn’t see it in myself at the time, but my mood took a drastic turn for the better. My irritability escaped from my being like a mouse who flees when he sees a cat in the room. It happened that quickly.
“What was that like for you, to be living during the occupation?”
“The Nazi soldiers were everywhere, patrolling the streets with their rifles slung over their shoulders. It was a very scary and difficult time for all of us.”
“Why did you leave Holland when you were 19?” I asked after he finished talking about his wartime experience.”
Thankful for the humor found in the stories of others“Oh that’s a funny story,” he said, again with a smile on his face.
“The Dutch government was concerned about over-population and that the country couldn’t handle the increase in population growth they anticipated. So they offered anyone who would move away a sum of money that was equivalent to about $5,000. After the war in 1945-46, that was a large amount of money. So being 19-years-old and looking for adventure, I grabbed the money and moved to Canada.
“As it turned out, the population of Holland grew much larger anyway and there hasn’t been any problem with the country keeping up with that growth.”
“Why did you move to Canada,” I asked. “Why not the U.S.?”
“Oh, that was an easy decision,” our elderly Dutchman replied. “When the Allied forces liberated us after the war in 1945, the Canadian soldiers were much friendlier than the Americans. So that’s why I moved to Canada.”
We all got a good laugh over this part of his story.
With that, we finished breakfast and moved to the first session of the conference. I was now completely rejuvenated and thankful for the story of this Dutchman. I don’t recall seeing him again the rest of the weekend, but this relational moment we had together over breakfast has stayed with me for many years since. It makes me smile whenever I think of him.
Thankful for what we learn from the stories of othersMy interaction with this World War II-era Dutchman taught me a number of things:
All problems are temporary. Even leaving half your clothes at home for a weekend trip Our moods are temporary, too. A good conversation can be a mood-altering experience Asking a simple question to start a conversation is quite powerful Asking a follow-up question is even more powerful. It’s the engine that keeps the conversation train rolling down the tracks Being curious about other people has been a source of joy in my life. It’s the basis for being a good listener, and a means to deepen relationships. I’m so thankful I majored in history in college and that I still enjoy it. Having a background in history has enriched my life. So what does all this mean for YOU?The next time you’re in a bad mood, use your curiosity muscles to listen to someone share one of their life experiences. By drawing them out with follow-up questions it will help lift you out of yourself. It’s amazing how that works. Give it a try.
ClosingIn closing, I’d also love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to be curious about other people and to be thankful for their stories.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today.
Now don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll connect with you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
185: Thankful for Curious People
063: Six Reasons Why We’re Not More Curious About People
165: Nosey People Weaken Relationships; Curious People Strengthen Them
The prior and most recent episode205: How to Have a Meaningful Conversation
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider making a donation to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also make a contribution by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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To deepen our current relationships, or to develop new ones, it’s helpful to ask ourselves an important question. Namely, “How do I have a meaningful conversation with someone?” Today’s episode will give you a few ideas to help you answer this question.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
A meaningful conversation with my barberOne way to find this joy God designed for us is to consider how we can have meaningful conversations with people. “Meaningful” doesn’t necessarily have to mean “deep.” If you listened to the episode prior to this one, #204, you may recall the woman on the NextDoor app who posted that she wanted to have 40 “deep conversations” before she turned 40.
As it turns out she was really looking for 40 people to sign up for her life coaching business. I heard from some of you that you were angry with the woman for misleading people like this.
Now I’m going to save deep conversations for another time, and I have no life coaching advice for anyone. Well, except for one thing. Grown men over 60 should tuck their shirts in when out in public. It will keep your mom happy, if she’s still alive. It will honor her legacy if she’s no longer with us. That’s the extent of my life coaching advice for today.
As for meaningful conversations, they don’t have to be deep in order to derive a measure of joy from them. And you don’t always have to create them, because sometimes they just come to you like a stray dog or cat who appears on your doorstep and welcomes themself in.
For example, several years ago I was sitting in the chair in a barber shop when my barber, Paul, asked me what I was going to do the rest of the day when I was done with my haircut.
“Stain my deck this afternoon,” I said.
“I’ve been putting it off because I don’t like being on my knees putting the stain on with a paintbrush. But the job needs to be done.”
The most meaningful conversation I had that dayPaul then said, “You know they make special brushes for putting down stain on decks. They’re about 6 inches wide and an inch and a half thick. You screw any standard-size pole, like you use for a broom, into a hole in the brush. This allows you to dip the brush into the pail of stain and put it down on the wood without ever bending down or kneeling. Most hardware stores carry this kind of brush.”
After my haircut I went straight to a nearby hardware store, bought the kind of brush Paul described, and started staining my deck just as Paul described. What was once a burdensome task now became something quite easy. All because of this meaningful conversation while sitting in a barber’s chair.
The meaning in my conversation with Paul is that he shared something that made my life better. He shared the knowledge and experience he had to ease a difficulty in my life. It wasn’t a deep conversation by any means, but it brought me joy in knowing how to complete a task in a new and less painful way. It really lifted my spirits.
To have this meaningful conversation with Paul all I did was engage in small talk and share what was on my mind. When you do the same thing with a good listener, there’s the possibility are you’ll get into a meaningful conversation, too.
Dinner partyAnother meaningful conversation happened just recently when Janet and I were invited to dinner at the home of one of our couple friends. Another husband and wife who moved away many years ago were in town and they were invited, too. The six of us have been friends for decades.
As the six of us were eating, the subject came up of the first house each of us lived in and the memories we had of those homes. It was interesting to hear each person recall what was memorable for them. One memory shared in this conversation that stood out for me was one shared by the hostess, who I will call “Sarah.” It’s not her real name, but she’d be embarrassed to no end if I told you who she really was, so I’ll just call her Sarah.
A visit from DadAnyway, Sarah shared a memory of her and her husband’s first house, that in all the many years I have known them I had never heard before. She said a favorite memory was how her dad on occasion would come and visit her on his day off. He was a mail carrier is a town about 75 miles away.
“He would drive all that way and then sit in our living room and read the newspaper. It’s a favorite memory of mine, being in the same small living room with him while he read the paper.”
Sarah was a young mom at the time with two small children when her father would come and spend the day with her.
The smile and look on her face told me this was something special. I had heard stories about her father before, of the kind man he was. Sarah’s husband spoke fondly of him, too. On the days he would visit he came alone. Sarah’s mother stayed home. To me, it seemed fitting that way, as her relationship with her mother was, well, very different from her relationship with her dad.
A meaningful conversation without wordsEven though no one else said much as she shared her story, I found it to be a meaningful conversation among the six of us. Sarah, as long as I’ve known her, has been one of the kindest, most loving and gentle people I’ve known. I learned this night when she shared her story where she got these qualities. She got them from her dad.
Her dad’s legacy lives on through Sarah. She places a high value on relationships as he did, and she is kind and gentle, too.
I mean, who would spend their day off from work to drive 150 miles and 2½ hours round trip to just be with his daughter? Not to do anything special, just to sit in her living room reading the newspaper.
I found both sadness and joy in this meaningful conversation. Sadness that Sarah’s mother related to her so differently. Sadness in knowing that her dad died quite young. I think he was only 54. I found joy in knowing this memory of Sarah’s father and how the way he spent his day off still has a special place in her heart.
There was also the Joy in seeing her dad in Sarah. Their shared qualities of kindness and gentleness. And Joy in knowing an example of how a father can love his adult daughter. I want to be remembered by my daughter and son like this after I’m gone.
What makes a conversation meaningful?I like to think a meaningful conversation is one where there is an exchange of meaning. And it doesn’t necessarily have to involve words. The conversation with my barber about the deck stain brush certainly involved words. He shared his knowledge and experience that was meaningful to me. It was a solution to a problem I had, which I appreciated.
Now, you and I have been in conversations filled with lots of words, many words, but without any meaning being exchanged. You know what I’m talking about. When people fill the air with their own voice, where they talk just to talk, devoid of anything meaningful to you. They give you information or opinions you didn’t ask for that mean nothing to you. You are not asked any questions in a conversation like this. It’s more a monologue than a conversation.
This wasn’t the case at all with Sarah sharing a favorite memory from the first house. There were few words, but lots of meaning was exchanged because we listened. Listening based on what we all remembered about Sarah’s background. Listening by observing her facial expression. And then listening by entering into Sarah’s story as we imagined what it must have been like for her, and for her dad, and his occasional visits to her home.
Sarah shared her memory with only a few words, yet it was filled to the brim with meaning.
Words not neededIf Sarah had used words to convey the meaning of her conversation it would have gone something like, “My dad thought I was important enough to use his day off from work to come and spend time time with me. Even if it was to just sit in our living room reading the newspaper. That was enough for both of us. It was all we needed, to be together like that. This was a favorite memory of mine from the first house owned.”
Yeah, something like these words would have described it. But we didn’t need the words. We saw it and more in her face. The meaning I came away with from this meaningful conversation was joy for Sarah. Joy that she had such a loving relationship with her dad. It reminded me of that Walt Whitman quote I love,
“We were together, I forgot the rest.”
So what about YOU?I wonder what meaningful conversations you’ve had lately. What have you done to make them meaningful? What exchange of meaning has taken place between you and another person?
And I especially wonder what meaningful conversations presented themselves to you, like the sun peeking around the edge of grey clouds after a sprinkle of rain? I’d love to hear about any conversations like this.
ClosingAnd speaking of the sun peeking out from clouds, as we close up shop for today, don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Prior and most recent episode 204: Deep Conversations
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry.
DonatePlease consider making a donation to help cover the costs associated with this podcast and the other services we provide missionaries around the world. You can make a tax-deductible contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also make a contribution by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page. Thank you.
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Do you ever long for a deep conversation with someone? Today’s episode is about a creative measure someone took to make that happen. It reveals what many of us long for, and how we can make the world a better place, one conversation at a time.
As with every episode, our purpose in this podcast is to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
The Next Door appI’ll start by telling you something interesting I found the other day on the social media app, “Next Door.” It’s a bit like Facebook but for neighborhoods. You sign up to get posts from people living in your neighborhood, and it’s usually people asking for recommendations. Things like, “I need a plumber,” or “I’m new in town and am looking for a good dentist, who would you recommend.” Things like this.
Last summer, for example, I found a high school student through this app willing to pull weeds from our flower beds, so it’s great for items like this.
But you’ll also find annoying things like a recent post that read “Why is the Taco Bell on Moreland Rd closed all of a sudden.” That’s not so bad, but it generated a long thread of comments about how horrible Taco Bell is, followed by a string of Taco Bell fans praising the place. Followed yet by another string of “Why are people so lazy they can’t make their own tacos at home? What’s wrong with you people?”
I think you get the picture. It’s why I delete the app, but then months later sign up for it again.
An unusual requestAnyway, the most unusual post I’ve seen in a long time came from an attractive woman by the name of Nicole who posted her picture with the following:
I turn 40 in roughly 4 months.
To celebrate, I’m challenging myself to have deep conversations with 40 different individuals.
What’s in it for you? Maybe some clarity in an area you’re questioning or better sense of your purpose or even just someone to listen to you unload.
What’s in it for me? I get to connect with YOU. Simple as that.
I want to close out my 30s by connecting with as many people as possible. And if we already know each other, let’s do this anyway!
Message me if you’re up to help me with this challenge.
Summary of the ResponsesThe last time I checked 99 people responded to Nicole. Here’s a summary of those responses:
Slightly more women responded than men No one said “no” or anything negative. Everyone either said “yes” in one form or another, “Happy Birthday” and nothing more, or they had a question 9 people commented something along the lines of “Oh, you’re so beautiful.” One person said she looked like Julia Roberts. None of these 9 agreed to a deep conversation Nicole is looking for. 2 people wanted to know more Selected responses I found interestingJim: Wish I were 40 yrs. younger
Nicole: ha! Flattered, but I’m married!
Guy: Hello Nicole! I’m Game!! But I’m a talker…You better be ready!!!
Joseph: The years have been very kind to you! What are some of your interests?
Anna: I would love to do this. I am 78 years old. This could be very interesting. And maybe loving & caring. I could use more contact w/ good people. How do I get on board?
Melody: Please be safe meeting all those people
Emily: I’m in. Always great to meet new friends. Happy early birthday
Mark: Hello Nicole, what a way to start and meet new friends. I would like to connect and have some conversations.
Angela: What a wonderful way to celebrate your milestone birthday! I am having a milestone birthday today @60! I have a lot of life to discuss and would be honored to help you accomplish this worthwhile project!!
Steven: Absolutely, any time!
Tami: Hi Nicole! I’m Tami, and I am so intrigued with your project!! I would love to help you with this. I’m a writer and deep conversations are my jam!
Craig: Very interesting idea. I love to chat with new people!
Laura: If you haven’t met your 40 conversations, I could use a good conversation with a kind soul.
An interest in deep conversations from young and oldMeghan: I wish there were more people like this with good intentions! I’m in my mid-20s. Intellectual conversations are kinda really my thing.
Jeri: I would love to participate. I just turned 70 and looking for connection.
Larry: I am 66; is it to just unload problems or to really make new friends--if you want to make new friends I am there count me in-
Karen: I would love to help you . I am in my early 50s and love meeting new people and making friends.
Kat: Well, I am 76 years old and I have lived through a lot! I was a postwar baby and as I became a teenager we dealt with birth control. Then there was the Vietnam war, civil rights. Live near the Bay Area in the 60s and saw lots of disobedience and Craziness. I lived to see John Kennedy shot and killed Martin Luther King shot and killed and Bobby Kennedy shot and killed. Those were sad sad days for America. I could go on and on, but I won’t. You get the idea. At this point in my life, I have lost almost everybody that was of significance in my life growing up. But I’m still part of the class of ’64 for our high school and we are a very connected class since we went from kindergarten through high school together for most of us. By the way, happy happy birthday
Lyn: Nicole, I'm game if you're still collecting names. I just celebrated my 75th...definitely a milestone!
Michelle: Hi Nicole, I’d love to assist with your quest. What a lovely way to celebrate your next birthday.
My response to the request for a deep conversationI responded with this text, I’ll do what I can to help you with this challenge.
Shortly thereafter I received a text from Nicole that read:
"Hey John! Thanks for offering to help with the challenge!
"Just as a very brief background: I'm a nurse and obtained a certification as a transformative life coach and my goal is to connect with as many people as possible. There's no catch, just connecting :)
"Here's a link to schedule a time to connect:"
Hmmmn.
A different “deep conversation” than what was expectedI clicked on the link to find a calendar to book an appointment. Above the calendar read “Free Session.” The word “Free” jumped out a me. It implies, especially after reading further, that some sessions are not free.
Next to the calendar is more information from Nicole that began with:
"Why do this? To connect! I'm a nurse and a health and wellness coach looking to serve my community one conversation at a time. I want to learn about you and where you're struggling right now, and alternatively, what's going great and how to help you build on that!"
Nicole goes on to write:
"Some sessions can be filled with big emotions and that's ok! I want you to express yourself to the fullest, be open and honest, and I'll do the same for you. That being said, if I feel you're not showing up fully in this way, I'll call you out on it and push you a little harder. Not showing up fully is not an option in my coaching space.
"At the end, we'll make sure you have a plan to continue any forward momentum that we've created together."
My take on all thisI was really tempted to contact some of the 99 people who responded to Nicole’s initial challenge to celebrate her upcoming 40th birthday by having deep conversations with 40 people. I’d like to ask them what they thought and felt when they got the same text I received when I responded to Nicole. Believe me, that was so tempting.
But if I did that, this episode would be about the ethics of Nicole’s marketing strategy for her wellness coaching business. The larger and more interesting aspect to this story is why these 99 people responded to Nicole in the first place.
It caused me to go back and look at the responses of these 99 more closely and found they reveal something about what many of us are all looking for these days.
What people are looking forI think of Anna, who at 78 years of age found the prospect of a deep conversation with Nicole to be in her words, “loving and caring,” and “I could use more contact with good people.”
Then there is Laura who said, “I could use a good conversation with a kind soul.”
And Larry who mentions he’s 66 and “If this is about making new friends I am there. Count me in.”
Another response that is telling comes from Jeri who said “I would love to participate. I just turned 70 and looking for connection.”
And finally there is the response from Kat who spoke about the major events she lived through in her 76 years, almost as a way of auditioning for Nicole, implying that she would have a lot to offer in any kind of deep conversation.
I was especially touched when Kat said “At this point in my life, I have lost almost everybody that is of significance in my life growing up. But I’m still part of the class of ’64 for our high school and we are a very connected class since we went from kindergarten through high school together for most of us.”
Over and over again people talk about looking for connection and meeting new friends.
I think it’s because many of us are lonely. Otherwise, why would we want new friends? It’s either because we don’t have any friends, or the few we have are just surface friends.
So what does all this mean for YOU?If you saw Nicole’s request for a deep conversation, how would you respond? Are you interested in deep conversations that would lead to connections with people and making new friends? Or are you overloaded with the things going on in your life that you just don’t have any space for deep conversations much less new friends?
Another thing this brings up is as people of faith, how would Jesus want us to respond to those looking for friends and connection with others? We can’t connect with everyone, nor be friends with everyone. And if you’re active in a church, please, please don’t say, “tell others they need to get in a small group.” No, they don’t.
My hunch is that Jesus doesn’t want us to funnel lonely people into a church program or ministry. Rather, I think he wants us to individually reflect his image and character.
To be what 78-year-old Anna is looking for, “someone who is caring and loving” and that good person she could connect with.
To be that “kind soul” Laura is looking for.
Yeah, that’s how I think Jesus would want us to respond.
Because someone listened…I’ll conclude by reminding you of that new feature we’re trying out this season, Because Someone Listened…
I’d like you to describe a time when someone listened to you well and the impact it had on you. Just complete the sentence because someone listened…. You can post it in the comment box at the bottom of the show notes, or you can email it to me at [email protected].
ClosingIn closing, I’d also love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to be that loving and caring person, that “kind soul” people are looking for.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. Please consider making a donation to help us pay the bills to continue this podcast and other services we provide missionaries around the world.
You can make an online contribution to Caring for Others when you click here.
You can also make a contribution by clicking on the yellow "Donate" box in the upper right corner at the top of the first page.
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There’s a school of thought out there that says to make friends it’s important to be vulnerable by sharing your story. Some call it “being authentic.” Yet it’s been my experience that sharing your story when someone is trying to share theirs may end up pushing people away. Some would call that being self-centered. Today’s episode, though, is about three reasons to be stingy in sharing your story.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, an award-winning author and relationship coach. I'm here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it.
The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
In the last episodeIf the phrase “be stingy in sharing your story” sounds familiar it’s probably because you heard it used in episode 202, “The Best Stories.” It was in reference to the listening advice shared in the interview I did with Linda Crouch, a retired missionary friend. She talked about her friend Meg who listened well to Linda talking about her recent trip to Nigeria. Even though Meg was a missionary herself, she was stingy in sharing her own story. So Linda had all the time she needed to tell hers.
I love this word, “stingy.” I never thought of it being a good word with a positive connotation to it. Ebenezer Scrooge in Charles Dickens A Christmas Carol come to mind when I hear the word “stingy.”
But in the context of relationships, “stingy in sharing our story” is a great principle on several levels, when used properly. Here are three reasons why:
Being stingy in sharing your story honors the person sharing theirsIn any meaningful conversation you can’t have two stories going on at once. Unfortunately, though, you see this happening all too often. Tune in any TV or radio news show with 3 or more hosts and invariably you hear them talking over each other, fighting for air time.
A meaningful conversation requires someone to take the high road by being quiet and listening. We honor people when we relinquish our turn to be the center of attention. It gives voice to people who may not have had a voice.
It’s a biblical principle as well. James 1:19, that familiar passage says, “…be quick to listen and slow to speak.” When we take that to heart and put it into practice it manifests another Biblical concept we read in Romans 12:10, “…take delight in honoring each other.”
Being stingy in sharing your story brings out the best in youA second reason why being stingy with your story when someone is sharing theirs is a great practice is because it brings out the best in you.
The best in you displays relational hospitality, where you invite people into interaction with you by giving them the floor and allowing them to be the focus of attention.
To let someone go first in sharing their story is an act of humility, which is always found in the best of our character traits. It’s a sacrifice to let someone have the air time we would like.
Letting someone else have the spot light without interruption from you models what good listening looks like. And when we model something for others that will bring out the best in them, it brings out the best in ourselves.
Being stingy in sharing your story is an antidote to our lonelinessAs counterintuitive as it sounds, being stingy in sharing your story is an antidote to loneliness. When you hold back on talking about yourself it creates an opportunity to learn about someone else and a possible point of connection based on their life, not yours.
We have a missionary friend who grew up in a large family where everyone talked. In order to be heard she learned how to fight for airtime by talking a lot herself. While that skill served her well as a child, it did just the opposite as an adult. Instead of drawing people to herself, talking a great deal pushed people away. Consequently, she was often lonely.
Another thing. When we hold back on talking about ourself so that others can share their story it creates the possibility of broadening our world, which tends to dissipate loneliness.
Now I’ll be the first to admit that many times the stories people share about themselves are boring and repetitive. I know, because some of my stories are boring and repetitive.
A brother-in-law storyRecently though, Janet and I were at an extended family event that wasn’t all that interesting to me, and as the afternoon wore on I was itching to go home. Janet, however, was thoroughly enjoying herself and didn’t want to leave.
At one point the subject of military service was mentioned, which prompted me to ask my brother-in-law Rich, “Were you ever in the service?”
“Yes,” he said, but nothing more.
I then asked, “What was your your role, your job?”
“Paratrooper,” Rich said.
That one word answer changed my mood entirely. I’ve known Rich for many years, but never knew he was paratrooper. This prompted me to ask more more questions about his military service that I found really interesting. Especially about the mechanics of jumping out of airplanes with a parachute on your back.
I was so glad I coaxed my brother-in-law into sharing his story instead of telling parts of my own. It made for a far more interesting afternoon.
Being stingy with your story doesn’t mean remaining silent about it
One final thought on this whole matter: Being stingy with your story doesn’t mean remaining silent about it. It’s more about waiting your turn. It’s about going last, not first. Good listeners do that, you know.
So what about YOU?I wonder. Is it possible you may be too generous in sharing your story in ways that keeps someone from sharing theirs?
I also wonder if being stingy with your story isn’t a problem for you, how are you handling the results of letting others fill the air waves with the sound of their voice. What goes on inside you when you can’t get a word in edgewise because other people are dominating the conversation and sucking the air time available for anyone else to talk.
I’ve got some thoughts on this that I’ll share at another time, but I do wonder how others deal with this relational dynamic
Because someone listened…One of our listeners wrote in to tell what happened to her because someone listened. She tells the story of two friends who walked beside her through the death and grief of her 40-something daughter who died of cancer.
“I can’t count the number of times I drove out of their driveway with warm refreshing healing teardrops flowing down my cheeks. Over the years — but especially these past 18 months on the hardest journey I never would have signed up for — they welcomed me with open arms, listened to my ongoing expressions of grief and struggle, fed me with an abundance of Papa God’s love and delicious food, and brought the beauty of laughter into the hard. Their listening love has been a gift of GRACE wrapped in a ribbon of GOLD.”
I bet you have stories of what happened to you because someone listened. We’d like to hear them.
ClosingBefore we wrap up today’s show, if you’d like some input regarding a relationship question or issue you’re dealing with, I’d love to hear from you. Just go to JohnCertalic.com/question to leave me a voicemail. If you’d rather put your question in writing, just enter it in the Comment box at the bottom of the show notes.
I’ll do my best to answer your question in a future episode.
In closing, I’d also love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to be stingy in sharing your own story so someone else can share theirs.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Last week’s episode202: The Best Stories
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorCaring for Others, a missionary care ministry, is the sponsor for You Were Made for This. The generosity of people like you supports our ministry. It enables us to continue this weekly podcast and other services we provide to missionaries around the world.
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Most of us like a good story. I have found that the best stories are those that draw us in with emotion. They’re usually about relationships and often contain a story within a story. I’ve got one of those for you today that I’m pretty sure you’re going to like.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
Today's relationship storyThe story I want to tell you today comes from a listener response to my recent August 8th email to those on our email list. The email was about that line I love from the PBS TV show, Call the Midwife,
“We learn most when we listen to others”
Linda Crouch, a retired missionary now living in North Carolina, wrote to tell me how she’s come to appreciate the great value of people listening to one another. I was so fascinated by what she had to say and the story she told that illustrated the value of listening, that I thought it would make a great podcast episode if I interviewed her.
Linda graciously agreed to the interview that you’ll hear in just a minute. As you listen, I’d like you to see if you can identify the predominant emotion in the story. The relationships you’ll hear about are pretty obvious. But see if you can pick up on the emotion that makes hers a great story.
And then also, what do you hear as the story within her story? See if you can pick that out. So let’s get into it right now.
[I know some of you prefer to read rather than listen to what comes next, but I’m sorry there is no transcript of this best stories episode.]
Why today's story is one of the best stories I’ve heard in a whileI don’t know about you, but what Linda just shared is one of the best stories I’ve heard in a while. What an amazing thing she did in organizing a trip for her children and grandchildren to go back to a place where she and her husband spent almost 4 decades of their lives. It’s where her kids grew up and where it formed such an important piece of her identity, and there’s as well.
She could have gone by herself, but she wanted her children to go back with her to experience the joy she experienced. I’m not going to do this, but it would be oh-so interesting to interview 1 or 2 of her adult children, and the same with a couple of the grandkids. To hear how this trip impacted them.
Another thing that made this one of the best stories I’ve heard this year is listening to Linda describe the joy she felt in returning to Nigeria with her family. This is the predominant emotion I heard. Joy. I also love how she talked about “the joy of resilience.” What a breath of fresh air to hear this perspective.
And then there was her motive in going back, to say “thank you” to the people she worked with in Nigeria whom she and her husband Jim worked with and ministered to. I love that. Just recently we hosted a missionary couple who retired this year after 50 some years working in a camping ministry who have been taking a “thank you tour” across the US. They’re meeting with those who have supported them for all these years and who made possible the work they were called to. All to say “thank you” for their faithful support. What a great idea.
The story within the storyFinally, what made this one of the best stories I’ve heard this year is the story within Linda’s story. It’s the story of Meg and how she blessed Linda by being such a good listener to her sharing her story. For me, that was quite a powerful story within a story.
I loved how Linda described the way Meg entered into her story and even though she was a missionary herself, she practiced that great line that Linda quoted, “Be stingy with your own story” when listening to others. What a great line, “Be stingy with your own story.” May that be true of all of us when we are listening to others.
If you got distracted and missed any of this may want to replay this part of the episode.
Because someone listened…I’ll conclude by reminding you of that new feature we’re trying out this season, Because Someone Listened…
Send me an email, or fill in the comment box at the bottom of the show notes, where you complete the sentence because someone listened… Describe a time when someone listened to you well and the impact it had on you.
ClosingIn closing, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to be part of someone’s best story that they experience.
For when you do, it will help you experience the joy of relationships God desires for you. Because after all, You Were Made for This.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Last week’s episode201:Three Relationship Tools to Remember in September
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. The generosity of people like you supports our ministry. It enables us to continue this weekly podcast and other services we provide to missionaries around the world.
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Hello everyone, I’m back! To start season 8 of this podcast we’re going to talk about three relationship tools we can use to become better listeners this fall to deepen our relationships.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles and relationship tools you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
We're back from the off-seasonIt’s been 6 months since Season 7 of You Were Made for This ended with episode 200. You might be wondering what I was doing during this time. If you’re on my email list you got an email every Wednesday during this off-season about all matter of things relationships related that was on my mind at the time. And many weeks the email had links to blog posts on our website. If you missed those, I’ll have a link to them at the bottom of the show notes. I’ll also post a link to get on my email list list if you are not already on it.
There’s a lot more I could share about the past off-season, but I want to get rolling today with this first episode, number 201, of season 8. Plus I want to announce a few changes at the end of today’s show that you’ll want to know about.
However, if you really are interested in knowing more about what I was up to while away from the podcast mic, I’d be happy to tell you all about it over dinner at your house. Wednesdays work best for me. And I know this always comes up, but the only food allergy I have is to coconut. Just so you know.
Okay, to kick off season 8 here near the beginning of September in 2023 we are going to take a look at 3 relationship tools to remember this September that will help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
September is a perfect time to observeI’ll start with this. September is a perfect time to observe.
With the activities of summer in the rearview mirror for most of us, September is the time of year we return to the routines and rhythms of life. Vacations are finished for now, the kids are back in school, and the pace of life dials down a notch. September gives us space to look around and observe.
Flowers we only see in the fall appear now. Here in the Upper Midwest of the US where I live, cone flowers, coreopsis, and black-eyed susans are in full bloom.
Observe relationshipsAnd it’s not just the beauty of nature that rewards us when we take time to look around in September. It’s also the beauty of relationships that can soothe our souls when we take time to observe them. I live in a neighborhood where a lot of people walk, and I’m one of them.
While on a walk one early morning I came across a tall dad walking his small, young daughter to her bus stop on the first day of school. Hand in hand they walked, and you could tell they had a loving relationship. You could just tell. For those of you who are parents, first-day-of-school walks to the bus stop are over before you know it. The years just fly by.
Observing that tall dad reminded me of how quickly our children grow up. While parenting is a lot of work - no doubt about it - there is much joy to experience as well. Like the joy of being there for your children as a new chapter of their life opens each September.
September also brings a measure of relational sadness at times. The other day I was talking with Dave, my next-door neighbor. He told me his oldest daughter was soon moving to Washington, D.C. to start her first job out of college. In a moment of vulnerability he said,
“This is hard on me. Harder on me than it is on Barb. I’m not ready for this.”
Yeah, I get it. I’ve been through having our daughter move away. It’s a grieving process.
Observe our relationships with strangersBesides relationships as I’ve just described, I find it helpful to observe the relationships we have with strangers. I’ll explain why later. Recently, for example, I bought a used car to replace an older car we had.
There was a particular model I was looking for, and after much research, I found one on the lot of a large auto dealer in our area, which meant I had to deal with a car salesperson. Yikes. I hate doing this.
What I dislike even more is dealing with the finance or business manager you have to go through to complete the transaction when you buy a car from a place like this. Listening to THEIR sales pitch to upsell their financing and extended warranties is painful. Oh, how I dreaded this process when I agreed to terms on the car with the salesman.
To my great surprise though, I really liked the finance guy within 30 seconds of meeting him. There was no hard sell on anything from this very likable man. He was friendly, but not overly so. Apologetic for having to put me through his dealership’s process. Understanding of our desire to get out of there as fast as possible. I thought to myself he would make a good next door neighbor.
So how are these observations a helpful relationship tool?
Remember in September to reflect upon our relationshipsObservations we make about people are helpful to the extent we use them to reflect on their meaning. Many of our relational encounters with people are purely transactional and have no deep meaning. You call to make an appointment. We say hello to the postal carrier. You say “Excuse me” to the lady with the grocery cart as you walk around her in the cereal box aisle.
But it’s a shame if we look at all the interactions we see with people as ordinary run-of-the-mill encounters. Our lives are enriched when we reflect upon what we see. Maybe there’s nothing there to reflect upon, but other times what we observe can encourage us or add to the richness of our life.
For example, observing that father in our neighborhood taking his daughter by the hand while they walked to her bus stop the first day of school brought me much joy. It reminded me of the joys of fatherhood and the times I saw my own children off to their first days of school. As I reflected on this scene it evoked gratitude for my joy-filled relationship with my daughter who once was like this little girl I saw on my morning walk.
It wasn’t nostalgia that moved me, but it was thankfulness instead that I continued to be blessed by my relationship with my daughter and my son., both of whom have children of their own.
Yeah, remember this September to reflect on relationships like this. It will do your heart good. It’s a great relationship tool to put into practice.
When people leave usAnd then there’s the conversation I had with my neighbor Dave whose daughter was moving to Washington, D.C. It caused me to reflect on when our own daughter moved out of state. It was a grieving process where there were no words that could make it better. In fact, at times like this, words often make it worse. Words like,
“At least your son is still in town… you’ll now have a new place to visit…when you see her when she visits you’ll have quality time with each other…time will heal your grief.” It’s like rubbing salt into a wound when we hear words like this.
It’s always harder on those left behind. Those who move on are off to a new adventure. Those left behind get a piece of their heart ripped away.
Strangers can inspire usOn a more positive note, as I reflected on my interaction with the finance guy at the car dealer, it actually inspired me to be more like him. I tend to drift toward being critical of people, which I hate to see in myself.
I want to be winsome and put people at ease like the finance guy I met. I want to be gentle and kind with people, to bring out the best in others.
When we reflect upon what we observe in our relationships it opens the possibility of becoming more the man or woman God created us to be. It shows us the extent to which we are reflecting the image of God well.
Remember this September to Act upon what we observe and reflect uponThe third relationship tool to remember in September is Act. Take some kind of action based on what you observe and reflect upon.
You need to know, though Act doesn’t necessarily mean an outward behavior. It’s also not about trying harder. It’s not about doing. Sometimes it is, but often it is about thinking. Often an action you take looks like you’re doing nothing to an outside observer.
When I spoke about observing the changing rhythms of life this fall and the flowers that appear this time of year it slowed me down to reflect upon the beauty of God’s creation. It also evoked an action within me, namely to appreciate again the change and energy that comes with each autumn where I live. Feeling something and being aware of it is just as much an action as a behavior. It’s an action unobservable to anyone else. But it’s very real.
It would have been easy to observe what I did, reflect upon it, but feel no gratitude or response and just move on to the next thing.
Two dads and their daughtersThe two fathers I observed caused me to reflect upon my relationship with my own daughter. It reminded me of tender moments with her, like seeing her off for the first day of elementary school. When I listened to my neighbor share his sadness over his newly minted college graduate moving out of state, it made me reflect upon the sadness I felt when our own daughter moved 800 miles away.
As far as acting on what I observed and reflected upon, I made a mental note to ask my neighbor the next time I saw him, “How are you doing now with your daughter moved into her apartment in Washington?” Making mental notes like this shows you’re listening, and it creates the potential for deepening a relationship.
Take action by drawing upon the work of God in our livesWhen it comes to taking action in our relationships, draw upon the wisdom and power that lies beyond ourself. Don’t settle for any old idea that pops into your head. It’s too self-limiting.
Instead, here’s a novel thought: ask God what he would want you to do, and then ask him for the power to do it. Rely on him. It's a valuable relationship tool.
He may tell you to do nothing.
He may ask you to change your thinking.
Or he may prompt you to initiate one of a countless number of behaviors.
In a nutshell, to Act is to listen to God. What does he want you to do? Ask him. The possibilities are endless.
SummaryIn summary, the relationship tools I’ve mentioned in today’s show are an application of that relationship model I’ve talked about in past episodes, ORA. Observe-Reflect-Act. I’ll be talking more about this in future episodes. For now, though, just remember that ORA is about listening.
To Observe is to listen with your eyes.
Reflect is to listen with your heart
To Act is to listen to God
Coming this fallI mentioned at the beginning of the show there are some changes coming here in season 8. One is that we’re going to move from a weekly schedule of episodes to a semi-monthly format. A new episode will be released on the first and third Wednesday of each month. There may also be occasional bonus episodes or emails I’ll send out at other times in the month. The reason for this is to allow time to implement a new initiative related to this podcast.
I’ve become increasingly aware of how many of us are overloaded with information. There’s a lot of content of one kind or another coming at us like a firehose at times. Much of the content is helpful. I hope you feel that way about this podcast.
But a shortcoming of all this content is we often don’t have opportunity to process what we hear. It’s one-way communication. Someone talks and we listen. But there’s no interaction to ask questions or learn from others how they are applying the same content we hear together.
I’d like to change that, so this fall I’m going to experiment with creating a community of like-minded people interested in developing deeper relationships in their life. It will start with a test group of mostly people who listen to this podcast. I don’t have all the details worked out and I will be looking for help from the founding members of this discussion group to do so.
I’ll be sending out more details about this in the days ahead. And hopefully, it will be something you’ll want to join.
Because someone listened…One last item for today in terms of changes to this podcast for the fall is something I mentioned about a month ago in my August 9th email. One of our fellow listeners, Linda Crouch, told the story of how she benefited greatly from a friend who listened to her talk about her trip to Nigeria where she and her husband served as missionaries. It was all because someone listened.
I bet there are other similar stories you have of being blessed in one form or another because someone listened. So I’d like to introduce a segment in each episode to get those stories out.
We’ll call it “because someone listened” stories. I have a hunch they will encourage all of us. So just send me a paragraph or two that completes this sentence, “Because someone listened…” You can email it to [email protected].
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
And don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s show139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Blog articles
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Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. The generosity of people like you supports our ministry. It enables us to continue this weekly podcast and other services we provide to missionaries around the world.
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One relationship principle I’ve come to appreciate over time is the power of giving people the gift of hope when they have so little of it themselves.
It’s when you burn brightly with hope for others when their own hope is but a dying ember.
In several recent episodes, I shared a response from one of our listeners who wrote about feeling overwhelmed at how to develop relationships. She said she has no friends and is lonely. The hope she has for things ever getting any better is but a dim flicker.
In today’s episode, the last of season seven, I share what it looks like to give people the gift of hope.
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
Season seven ends today with episode 200Before we get into today’s show, I want to remind you that today’s episode concludes season 7 of You Were Made for This.
I will be taking a break from the podcast for a time to work on several projects to serve you better. They will be focused on ways to deepen our relationships and finding the joy God intends for us in them. The joy of relationships is the “this” we were all made for.
Even though the podcast will go dark for a while until season 8 begins, I’d like to continue sharing with you what I’m working on in the meantime. I’d like to tell you about articles and information I come across I think you would find interesting and helpful in nurturing your relationships.
I’ll be doing this with occasional emails to you. If you’ve been getting my email each Wednesday about that week’s podcast episode, you are good to go. But if you’re not getting my Wednesday email, then you’re not on my email list. To get on it, just go to johncertalic.com/follow to leave your email address.
Okay. So much for this housekeeping matter and on to today’s program.
A listener who needs the gift of hopeHere’s what the listener I’m calling “Emily” (not her real name) wrote in response to episode 063. This is the one about building relationships by being more curious about people. She came across this episode 2½ years after it first aired. Listen as I read her comments about it.
“I found this page because I was trying to do some research into what is ‘wrong with me.’
“I grew up in a very strict and often abusive household, where it was constantly drilled into my head that if people wanted you to know things, they would tell you. And I was made to feel stupid for asking anything that should be “obvious.” We were basically shamed out of our curiosity as kids and taught to accept everything at face value without asking any questions.
“Now almost 40 years old, I’m so frustrated by the fact that I don’t have any real, close friendships.
“I don’t know how to be curious about people, and even when I want to be I have no idea what to ask. It feels like I don’t even know how personal relationships work. I don’t know how often you’re supposed to reach out to people, exactly what parts of their lives you should be involved in, or how often to reach out… it sounds so silly but it’s my reality! I don’t know how to make and keep friends.
“I’m sure I come off as selfish and self-centered… But really I just don’t know how all this works and I get overwhelmed by it.”
Our listeners respondIn recent episodes, I asked you and the rest of our listening audience how you would respond to Emily if they were sitting across from her in a coffee shop for a conversation about her situation. I’ll have links to those episodes at the bottom of today’s show notes.
In those episodes, I share what your fellow listeners would say to Emily. There were some very good responses. One that came in recently was from Chris, a listener in Wisconsin. You can read his wise feedback in the comments section of episode 198. You can find it at the bottom of the show notes for that episode.
I also have a few comments to make about Emily’s concern, but first I thought you’d like to hear what our executive producer, and my boss, Carol Steward, has to say. Carol, as you may recall, is the voice you hear introducing each episode of our podcast. She was my wife’s roommate in college, and we have been friends for over 50 years. Most importantly, she was the one who first told us about Jesus when we were 19-year-old freshmen. I talk more about Carol in episode 021, The Most Important Relationship of All.
Carol was the one who gave Janet and me the gift of hope so many years ago.
Listen now to what she had to say recently about Emily and having a conversation with her in a coffee shop:
Many of us have people like “Emily” in our livesHi John: I was on my treadmill listening to your podcast. It resonated with me and someone whom I know that said to me once, "I don't tell people anything unless they ask me about something."
She has told me that she had been abused in several relationships, and I think that this has precipitated her unwillingness to be open and free with conversation. I'm thinking that she thinks the less she talks about herself, the less it will be twisted or used against her.
Is that what your "Emily" may have been feeling? Of course, we don't know because we can't ask her that. But I do know that abuse creates fear in the abused.
My heart goes out to her. So the best I can offer an answer to what you asked of me, is if you want to get to know "Emily", get to know her the same way you would get to know a 4 or 5-year-old. Be light-hearted, and just enjoy the moment with her. . . . no expectations, no big questions, just enjoy the time. If the conversation only gets as far as, "Have you ever come to this coffee shop before?" and, "What do you like about this coffee?" All good. It's a start, and you can build on it the next time you get together.
A gift of hope starts with wise wordsSo I didn't answer your question, did I? I told you what I would do in conversation with her. So here's my shot at an answer:
“Since you're at the coffee shop Emily, know that I’m here because I want to be there with you or else I would not have shown up. So ask me about my family--ages? interests? plans for the summer? Start with that and listen. Occasionally you could say, ‘Tell me more.’ All relationships start with get-to-know questions. If that's hard for you, go to the questions of the moment, ‘Have you ever been to this coffee shop before?’ and ‘What do you like about this coffee?’”
My Response to EmilyWhen I first received Emily’s response to episode 063 about being more curious about people, I sent her an email saying something along the lines that I’m sorry she’s having to deal with the relational difficulties she mentioned, and how they’re causing such loneliness in her life. I offered to talk with her about these things.
I never heard back from her.
Maybe she didn’t get the email. Or maybe she wanted to wait a while before responding and then lost my email address. There could be other reasons, but I’ll give her the benefit of the doubt. That being said, I have a few ideas I would use in talking with someone like Emily in a coffee shop. It starts with my goal.
My goal would NOT be to fix her problem, or even to make her feel better. My goal would be to reflect the image of God well in talking with her. We’re all made in the image of God, as the Bible tells us in the Book of Genesis. What would God want for Emily is a question I’d ask myself.
I would start by building a level of trust with her, which comes from validating her feelings and showing compassion. I would listen well, setting aside anything weighing on me at the moment, so I could focus on Emily. Part of listening well is asking good questions, especially follow-up questions in response to what she says.
With people struggling with relational issues like Emily, I often find myself asking them “where do you see God in your situation?” It’s a way of pointing people to Jesus, to eventually find the gift of hope found in Him, and seeing how He is at work in whatever circumstance a person is facing.
ChoicesAnother thing I would eventually like to get to is the issue of choices. Even be so bold as after listening well and being compassionate and empathetic, to ask Emily something along the lines of, “So, given your situation, what are you going to do about it?” If what she’s doing isn’t working what can you do differently, Emily?
And then let her come up with ideas. If she has a hard time answering this question I’d ask, “Emily the people you see who have good relationships; what do they do? What could you copy from them?
In dealing with relational difficulties, people have more choices than they often realize. Talking things through as I’m suggesting will often help reveal those choices. As people begin to see more choices available to them, they begin to find hope that things could change for the better.
I have a hunch that the skills Emily developed as a child living with her dysfunctional family are skills she continues to use as an adult. But these are skills that are no longer needed or appropriate in healthy relational environments. She needs to learn new relational skills, and discard the old ones. That’s my hunch anyway.
There’s so much more that can be said about giving people like Emily the gift of hope that things can improve in their relationships. What you’ve heard from your fellow listeners and from me is just the tip of the iceberg to help get you started.
So what does all this mean for YOU?I bet you’ve run across people like Emily in your life. When you do, it’s wise to ask yourself HOW you can best reflect the character and image of God with that person. And then not thwart the work of the Holy Spirit in their life.
Doing this can take so many different directions that it takes Godly wisdom to know which path to follow. So pray for wisdom at times like this.
If you forget everything else from today’s episode, here’s the one thing I hope you rememberCaring well for people means at times giving them the gift of hope. To help them see the hope found in knowing Jesus is at work in their life. It’s to burn brightly with hope for them when their own hope is a dying ember.
ClosingFinally, as I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, I want to stay in touch with you from time to time while I take a break from this podcast before season eight begins.
If you’re on my email list, I’ll let you know when I’m ready with new episodes to start the next season. I’ll also send you information from time to time I come across that I think you would find interesting and helpful in nurturing your relationships.
But if you’re not getting my Wednesday email already, you’re not on my email list. To get on it, just go to johncertalic.com/follow to get on the list.
I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show to think about how you can reflect the character and image of God in helping people find the gift of hope in their relationship with Jesus.
Well, that’s it for today - and for season seven of this podcast. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
I look forward to being in your ears when I’m ready to launch season eight. But until then, don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time in season eight. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows197: We Don’t Know What We Don’t Know
139: Why Should I Listen to This Podcast?
063: Six Reasons Why We’re Not More Curious About People
021: The Most Important Relationship of All
Last week’s episode199: How to Help a Friend
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorCaring for Others, a missionary care ministry, is the sponsor of You Were Made for This. The generosity of people like you supports our ministry. It enables us to continue this weekly podcast and other services we provide to missionaries around the world.
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Today’s episode is about how to help a friend using a model of deepening relationships I’ve talked about before. The ORA principle. You remember it, don’t you? O - Observe. R - Reflect. A -Act. ORA. I saw this model of relating on several different levels from the responses some of you, our listeners, sent in to help another listener. Someone I’m calling “Emily.”
In episode 197, Emily wrote in, feeling overwhelmed at how to develop relationships. She said she has no friends and is lonely. I‘ll read what she wrote in a minute. I then asked all of you this question near the end of the episode,
How do you react internally to her words? How did you feel inside about what she shared? Then, what would you do or say to Emily in response to her comments? How would you respond to her if the two of you were in a coffee shop having a private conversation with each other?
But before we get into today’s episode, here’s what this podcast is all about.
Welcome to You Were Made for ThisIf you find yourself wanting more from your relationships, you’ve come to the right place. Here you’ll discover practical principles you can use to experience the life-giving relationships you were made for.
I’m your host, John Certalic, award-winning author and relationship coach, here to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you.
To access all past and future episodes, go to the bottom of this page to the yellow "Subscribe" button, then enter your name and email address in the fields above it. The episodes are organized chronologically and are also searchable by topics, categories, and keywords.
As with every episode, our purpose today is to help you find more joy in the relationships God designed for you. Our listener friend, Emily, certainly isn’t experiencing any joy in her relationships. But let’s see what we can do together to help a friend like her.
Season seven is coming to a closeBut first, I want to remind you of something I’ve been mentioning in the last couple of episodes. Next week’s show, number 200 will bring an end to season 7 of You Were Made for This.
I’ll then be taking a break from the podcast for a time to work on a few projects to better serve you. I’ll still be writing about relationships from time to time and I’d like to keep you in the know.
If you’re on my email list, I’ll send you an article or email I come across that I think you would find interesting and helpful in nurturing your relationships.
But if you’re not getting my Wednesday email, then you’re not on my email list. To get on it, just go to johncertalic.com/follow to give me your email address.
What can we do to help a friend like this?Okay, On to today’s program. You may recall in episode 197 I mentioned that someone I’ll call Emily (not her real name) stumbled upon Episode 063: “Six Reasons Why We’re Not More Curious About People.” I’ll have a link to it in the show notes, or if you’re driving, just remember johncertalic.com/063.
Emily came across this episode 2½ years after it first aired. Listen as I read her comments about it.
“I found this page because I was trying to do some research into what is ‘wrong with me.’
“I grew up in a very strict and often abusive household, where it was constantly drilled into my head that if people wanted you to know things, they would tell you. And I was made to feel stupid for asking anything that should be “obvious.” We were basically shamed out of our curiosity as kids and taught to accept everything at face value without asking any questions.
“Now almost 40 years old, I’m so frustrated by the fact that I don’t have any real, close friendships.
“I don’t know how to be curious about people, and even when I want to be… I have no idea what to ask. It feels like I don’t even know how personal relationships work. I don’t know how often you’re supposed to reach out to people, exactly what parts of their lives you should be
involved in, or how often to reach out… it sounds so silly but it’s my reality! I don’t know how to make and keep friends.
“I’m sure I come off as selfish and self-centered… But really I just don’t know how all this works and I get overwhelmed by it.”
The question I asked our listening audienceSo again, the question I asked again of our listening audience is how do you react internally to her words? How would you respond to her if the two of you were in a coffee shop having a private conversation with each other.?
Here’s a way to help a friend like thisOur first listener response in answer to this question comes from Marilyn from Minnesota. She writes:
“John, I felt like crying for this person sharing her relationship problem. I hope she has been getting some sound counseling over the years.
“When I enter an unfamiliar culture I seek out a mentor or cultural guide to walk me through the confusing web. I can ask the questions that come up and that person can give valuable advice. I believe this would be a help to this person. But how can she even find someone to do it? This is the dilemma.
“ I would love for this person to be my friend and experience life with her as a cultural guide and friend. But I suppose that’s a crazy idea as a blog is not normally used for such things.
“I had parents exactly opposite from this individual. When I was very young, we had a missionary in our home for dinner. As we talked around the table, I felt free to ask him a question. In response, he complimented me for asking the question and encouraged me to continue that practice. Interesting how that one complement thrust me forward to get to know people by asking questions. This was also a lesson for me in later years to encourage and strengthen children in little and big ways. You never know the effect it will have.
“I think you’ve done programs on asking good questions. Always an excellent topic. Some people are so good at it and some are on the opposite spectrum.”
The elements of the ORA principle in Marilyn’s responseI like how Marilyn O- observed what was going on inside of her after reading Emily’s comments. “I felt like crying.” While she couldn’t physically observe Emily, she pictured what it must have been like for her. This enabled Marilyn to R-reflect on her own experience of being in an environment that’s unfamiliar - just like the world of healthy relationships is unfamiliar to Emily. This really helped Marilyn identify with what Emily is going through
Another listener response to help a friend like EmilyA second listener response comes from Randy in Pennsylvania. Randy writes:
“This evening, I listened again to this week's Podcast and the words compassion and empathy come to mind when you shared some of "Emily's" story. It reminds me of the broken world we live in. None of us are born into perfect families and no doubt the baggage, hurts, and scars can be passed on from one generation to another.
“I think of "Emily" as a little girl who was conditioned to think so poorly of herself. It defined her and her ability to relate to others because at home she was made to feel stupid which likely shut her down emotionally. Here she is around 40 years old living emotionally imprisoned to being the "bad, stupid, etc." girl that her abusive parents brought her up to think about herself.
“In many ways, I can relate as I regularly struggle with relational interactions and often feel like I don't go very deep with people. I can look at possible why's....a father who did not speak much.....showed his love through his work and providing not through his talking....he loved us dearly but his actions were his voice, not his mouth. My mom grew up with a very critical mother....hate to say it, but I picked up a bit of that type of thinking...
Act to help a friend“So, thinking back to ‘Emily’, whatever she can do to work on changing her self-talk ‘that she is stupid and can't make friends’ would be a big step forward. Think about working on changing her ‘mental Muscle Memory’ by replacing the negative thoughts with new, positive words, such as ‘I am deeply and completely loved by God…' something short and easy to repeat.
“John, this is a very good exercise as what you have done by sharing this story and seeking input helps us do our own processing with taking steps forward in our own growth and healing. Thanks!”
The ORA principle we see in Randy’s responseRandy O-observed the compassion and empathy that rose within him as he heard Emily’s story. He observed what her childhood was like as Emily shared parts of it. It caused Randy to R-reflect on his own growing-up years, which allowed him to more easily identify with Emily. He also offered some A-Action Emily could take.
He puts it this way, whatever she can do to work on changing her self-talk "that she is stupid and can't make friends" would be a big step forward. Think about working on changing her "mental Muscle Memory" by replacing the negative thoughts with new, positive words.
So what does all this mean for YOU?There are people like Emily all around us. Maybe you’re even one of them. Adults, who as children, were never modeled what good relationships look like. People just stuck in their relationships because they don’t know what they don’t know.
This ORA model of relating is a simple way of remembering what you can do to help a friend. We just touched upon the surface of the 3 components of this principle. There’s so much more to observing, reflecting, and acting that we don’t have time to cover here. After season 7 of the podcast ends next week, I plan to spend more time developing this concept so I can pass it on to you.
If you forget everything else from today’s episode, here’s the one thing I hope you rememberToday’s episode about how to help a friend struggling with relationships shows that the ORA principle of deepening relationships is a useful relational tool. Observe by watching and listening. Reflect upon what you observe and what it could mean. Act based on what you’ve observed and reflected upon.
ClosingFinally, I want to stay in touch with you from time to time after season 7 ends next week
If you’re on my email list, I’ll occasionally send you information I come across that I think you would find interesting and helpful in nurturing your relationships.
But if you’re not getting my Wednesday email already, you’re not on my email list. To get on it, just go to johncertalic.com/follow to get on the list.
In closing, I’d also love to hear any thoughts you have about today’s episode. I hope your thinking was stimulated by today’s show, to think about how you can apply this simple relationship model, ORA, with the people in your life. It comes in handy for all kinds of relational interactions, especially when you want to help a friend.
Well, that’s it for today. If there’s someone in your life you think might like to hear what you just heard, please forward this episode on to them. Scroll down to the bottom of the show notes and click on one of the options in the yellow “Share This” bar.
I have one more listener response to Emily’s dilemma that I’ll share with you next week in episode 200 to close out season seven. And then I’ll share my own thoughts and response to Emily’s challenges.
I know you’re going to like next week’s program, and I’m confident you will find it helpful. But until then, don’t forget to spread a little relational sunshine around the people you meet this week. Spark some joy for them. And I’ll see you again next time, for the last time, in season 7. Goodbye for now.
Other episodes or resources related to today’s shows021: The Most Important Relationship of All
063: Six Reasons Why We’re Not More Curious About People
088: Get Them to say “Thank You for Asking”
Last week’s episode198: Read Your Way to Better Relationships in 2023
All past and future episodes JohnCertalic.com
Our SponsorYou Were Made for This is sponsored by Caring for Others, a missionary care ministry. The generosity of people like you supports our ministry. It enables us to continue this weekly podcast and other services we provide to missionaries around the world.
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