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    Mansion Ingles Podcast October 2013 - Aprende gramática y vocabulario inglés

    · Aprende ingles con inglespodcast de La Mansión del Inglés-Learn English Free

    Hello once again and welcome to another Mansion Ingles podcast. This is podcast number 66 recorded for October 2013. En el nivel básico practicamos las colacaciones de los verbos, y también un poco de vocabulario general. En el nivel intermedio estudiamos el uso de los verbos GET, GO y HAVE y también una selección de preguntas sobre la gramática. In the advanced section, we practise more advanced collocations, and there's business vocabulary as usual, and a translation exercise, all to help you improve your English and take it to the next level. En los podcasts mensuales hablamos de los temas, vocabulario y ejercicios que salen en nuestro cuaderno mensual. Así podéis practicar la pronunciación y repasar el material del cuaderno. Si quieres recibir gratis el cuaderno cada mes, ver la trascripción de este podcast o leer los anteriores, ve a mansioningles.com y sigue los enlaces en la página principal. Antes de empezar, quiero dar las gracias a todos nuestros seguidores en Facebook. Ya tenemos más de 30,000 fans y seguimos creciendo cada día. Si tienes alguna pregunta, comentario o duda sobre el inglés o simplemente quieres hacer ejercicios adicionales, puedes encontrarnos en facebook.com/mansioningles Ok, let's start then with el nivel básico to make a noise - hacer un ruido - hacer se puede traducir como to make o to do, pero cuando va con el sustantivo a noise, decimos make a noise. Repite: make a noise. Shhh...don't make a noise they're sleeping. Who was making all that noise last night? También decimos take photos Repite: take photos - How many photos did you take? I took hundreds of photos. Estoy seguro que sabes que en inglés decimos drive a car or drive a bus or a taxi. Pero cuando hablamos de las motos, las bicicletas y los animales decimos ride - R-I-D-E Repite: to ride a bike, ride a horse, ride a motorbike. Can you ride a motorbike? Have you ever ridden a horse? I would love to ride an elephant. I rode a camel in Egypt. ¿Cómo se traduce 'llevar gafas'? to wear glasses Repite; wear -wear glasses. I wear glasses - I've been wearing glasses for years. He's wearing a jacket - Are you wearing jeans? Luego tenemos la expresión to run for the bus. Repite: the bus - run for - run for the bus. I ran for the bus this morning. ¿Como se dice suerte en inglés? - luck - Repite: luck - Luck es un sustantivo. ¿Cuál es el adjetivo? - lucky. Repite: Lucky. I'm lucky! Are you lucky? Are you a lucky person? I am. I think I'm very lucky. El verbo to book significa reservar. For example you can book a room in a hotel. Repite: to book - to book a room. Can I book a room, please? I'd like to book a room. También puedes book a table in a restaurant. Repite: to book a table. Can I book a table, please? I'd like to book a table for two, please. If you book a room in a hotel, you stay in the hotel. Repite: stay in the hotel. Where are you staying. Are you staying in a hotel? ¿Cómo se dice mandar un correo electrónico en inglés? - to send an email. Repite: send an email. Did you send me an email? I'll send you an email. I'll send you an email next week. Very good! - ¡Muy bien! También en el nivel básico este mes hemos practicado un poco de vocabulario. Vamos a ver si te acuerdas de las palabras.   A dress, skirt, trousers, shirt, socks are all examples of.....clothes. Repite: clothes. I like your clothes. I need new clothes. What do you cut your food with? You cut your food with a...... knife - K-N-I-F-E. Repite: Knife. knife and fork - knife, fork and spoon. Can I have a knife, please? Spring, summer, autumn and winter are the four....seasons. Repite: seasons. What's your favourite season? I like spring and autumn. I think autumn is my favourite season. En el inglés americano, autumn se dice fall - F-A-L-L because the leaves, las ojas, caen de los arboles. What do you usually drink tea and coffee and hot chocolate from? You drink tea and coffee from a ....cup. Not a glass, a cup. You drink Coca Cola from a glass, you drink beer from a glass. You drink tea and coffee from a cup. Repite: cup - a cup - a coffee cup - a tea cup. A cup of coffee. A cup of tea. Now, what is the name of the part of the house where you cook? You cook in the ....kitchen. Repite: kitchen. Ten cuidado con la diferencia entre kitchen and chicken. Chicken is pollo.  Repite: kitchen - chicken - kitchen. We cook in the kitchen. The chicken's in the kitchen. What's the name for the room where you usually have a shower, clean your teeth or wash your face? It's the bathroom. Repite: bathroom. Excuse me, where's the bathroom?   Ok good, now moving on to the intermediate section, Listen: 'Have you ever been to this restaurant?’  - ‘No, this is the first time.’ 'Have you been' is the present perfect tense. Listen: Have you been to New York? Has estado una vez en Nueva York? Repite: Have you been to New York? Have you been here before? Have you ever eaten Japanese food? Listen: We don’t have to be at the meeting. 'Have to' is similar to 'must' for obligation. The difference is that 'must' is often external obligation (it comes from outside the speaker) and 'have to' can be the obligation you feel inside. For example, your boss says "Everyone must go to the meeting", so you feel you have to. The government says "you must pay your taxes" so we all have to pay our taxes. A mother tells her son that he 'must do his homework', so the son tells his friend "I can't play with you now because I have to do my homework. My mother says I have to do my homework." Another difference of course is that 'have to' can change to the past: "I had to do my homework" and to the future "I will have to do my homework" or "I'll have to do my homework". We cannot say, X"I will must do my homework."X That's wrong! Repeat: I'll have to work on Saturday. - I had to work late yesterday. Do we have to go to the meeting? Listen to a different example from the same exercise: "I didn't remember where I had parked my car." Listen again. Which verb tenses do you hear? "I didn't remember where I had parked my car." Did is the past of do, so didn't remember is past simple. What about the second verb tense? I "had parked". Had + past participle is the past perfect tense. I had is often contracted to I'd. Repeat: I'd parked - I'd parked my car. I didn't remember - I didn't remember where I'd parked my car. (No recordaba dónde había aparcado el coche.) Repeat again: I didn't remember where I'd parked my car. - I didn't remember where I'd left my bag. I didn't remember what I'd said to her - I didn't remember what I'd done with my keys. Escucha otro ejemplo y, como antes, piensa cuales son los tiempos verbales: I was sitting on the train when suddenly my mobile rang. I was sitting - past continuous - my mobile rang - past simple. The sitting is the longer action. I was sitting before my mobile rang. I was sitting when my mobile rang, and I was sitting after my mobile rang. Repeat: I was sitting - I was sitting on the train - I was sitting on the train when my mobile rang. I was watching TV when I heard a noise. I was reading when you arrived. I was sleeping when you phoned. Here's one more example from the same exercise. Listen: Exercising before breakfast is the best time if you want to burn calories. Why is 'exercising' a gerund in this sentence? Why is it verb + ing? Well, it's because we often use a gerund as the subject of the sentence. Repeat: Exercising is good for you. Smoking is bad for your health. Jogging is a popular pastime. Reading is something I don't do very often. In the next exercise in this month's 'cuaderno', we looked at some expressions with the verbs get, go and have. Listen and repeat the sentences to practise pronunciation. Listen: How many e-mails do you usually get? Repeat: usually get - do you usually get - How many? How many emails? - How many e-mails do you usually get? Listen: Does she usually get drunk? Repeat: get drunk - usually - usually get drunk - Does she? - Does she usually get drunk? Listen: Did you have a shower? Repeat: have a - have a shower - Did you? - Did you have a shower? Listen: Did you go away for the summer? Repeat: the summer - for the summer - go away - go away for the summer - Did you - Did you go away for the summer? Listen: Did you go anywhere nice? Repeat: nice - anywhere - anywhere nice - Did you go? Did you go anywhere nice? Listen: What time did you get home? Repeat: get home - did you - did you get home - What time? - What time did you get home? Listen: Do you always get up early? Repeat: early - get up early (nota como se junta el sonido final de /up/ con el sonido vocal al principio de /early/ - up early. Repeat: up early - get up early - Do you always? - Do you always get up early? Listen: Did you go out on Saturday? Repeat: on Saturday - go out - go out on Saturday - Did you go out on Saturday? Listen: Where did you did you get your phone? Repeat: your phone - get your phone - Where did you? - Where did you get? Where did you get your phone? Listen: Where did you go for lunch? Repeat: lunch - for -  for lunch - go for lunch - Where did you? - Where did you go for lunch? Listen: Who did you have dinner with yesterday? Repeat: have dinner with - have dinner with yesterday - Who did you? - Who did you have dinner with yesterday? In the advanced section this month, we looked at some more collocations. The first of which was to make the best of something which means to do as well as possible with something that is not too promising. Repeat: I'll make the best of it. I don't like it, but I'll make the best of it. we can also say 'make the most of it'. Repeat: make the most of it. Make the most of a bad situation. Make the most of a bad job. Make the most of your time in the UK. (¡aprovechadlo!) Now, if you draw (someone’s) attention to something, you attract someone to notice or focus on someone or something. Repeat: draw your attention to - let me draw your attention to this wonderful painting. My attention was drawn to a small insect on the floor. If you jump for joy you are extremely happy. Repeat: I jumped for joy when I got my exam results. When she agreed to have dinner with me I jumped for joy. The children jumped for joy when we got to Disneyland. To draw out something means to make it longer than it needs to be. Repeat: to draw out a meeting. It wasn't necessary to draw out the meeting for so long. Why does he have to draw it out so much? Repeat: to draw out something. If you make allowances (for something) you take certain facts or circumstances into consideration. Repeat: to make allowances for. When we go to the UK we should make allowances for the weather. You have to make allowances for the age of the property. If you jump or are thrown in at the deep end, you start doing something new and difficult without help or preparation. Repeat: jump in at the deep end / thrown in at the deep end. I was thrown in at the deep end when I worked in a professional kitchen for the first time. You should jump in at the deep end and buy your first computer. Repeat: jump in at the deep end - I was thrown in at the deep end. stand a chance (of doing something) is another popular collocation. It means there's a possibility. You have a chance that something will happen. Repeat: stand a chance - Do you think I stand a chance? Do I stand a chance of winning? No, I don't think you stand a chance to be honest! You don't stand a chance of getting that job. Our last expression was to jump the gun which means to start before the starting signal. Guns used to be used to start a race. If you start before the gun goes 'bang' you jump the gun. Repeat: jump the gun. Don't jump the gun. Be patient! You're always jumping the gun. He apologised for jumping the gun.   In the Business English section this month we looked at some more business English vocabulary, and the first expression was to become head of something. This means to be in charge, to manage (ser el jefe). Repeat: She's head of sales. He's head of design. She became head of the company in March. Who's head of the department? Let's discuss means vamos hablar de.... Repeat: let's discuss the sales figures. Let's discuss your role in the company. Let's discuss the release date of the new product. outsourcing is subcontracting to an outside company. In Spanish, I think it's subcontratación o la externalización of a product or service. Repeat: outsourcing. Many companies are outsourcing their manufacturing. It's cheaper to outsource the work. Finally, the phrasal verb to run on means to continue without stopping or go on longer than expected. Repeat. Run on. What's the past of run? - ran. Repeat: the meeting ran on. - The meeting ran on for nearly three hours. - The story ran on for months. ¡Muy bien! - Very good! We also gave you some more sentences to translate in this month's cuaderno. First, you had to translate from English to Spanish. So,  I'll say the English sentences and you say the Spanish translation before I do. Then, repeat the English sentence after me to practise pronunciation. Are you ready? They didn’t want to stay here. - No querían quedarse aquí. Repite: They didn’t want to stay here. - stay here - to stay here - They didn’t want - They didn’t want to stay here. Unemployment is increasing / rising / going up. - El paro está subiendo. Repite: Unemployment - Unemployment is increasing - rising - Unemployment is rising - going up - Unemployment is going up. Don’t talk to me about economics. - No me hables de economía. Repite: economics - talk to me - Don't talk to me - Don’t talk to me about economics. The economy is beyond our control.  - La economía está más allá de nuestro control. Repite: the economy - beyond our control - The economy is beyond our control. How many beers do we have left? - ¿Cuántas cervezas nos quedan? Repite: left - have left - How many? How many beers? How many beers do we have left? How many beers do we have left? Good, now I'll read some Spanish sentences and you translate to English before I do. Then repeat the sentences after me to practise your pronunciation. OK? ¿Quieres decir que ésta es la última? - Do you mean this is the last one? Repeat: the last one - this is the last one. Do you mean? - Do you mean this is the last one? Habrá más vino. - There’ll be more wine. Repeat: more wine - There will - there'll - there will be - there'll be - There’ll be more wine. Corrieron a la farmacia. - They ran to the pharmacy/chemist (UK) /drugstore (US) Repeat: They ran to - They ran to the pharmacy - They ran to the chemist - They ran to the drugstore. ¿Por qué no querían quedarse? - Why didn’t they want to stay? Repeat: want to stay - Why didn't they? - Why didn’t they want to stay? Dijeron que tenían muchas cosas que hacer. - They said they had a lot of things to do. Repeat: things to do - a lot of - a lot of things to do - They said they had - They said they had a lot of things to do. - They said they had a lot of things to do. Well, I've got a lot of things to do also, so unfortunately that's the end of this podcast, but we'll be back with you next month as usual with another podcast based on our monthly newsletter, our cuaderno de inglés mensual. Remember, you can listen to all our previous podcasts at mansioningles.com and of course on iTunes. Si te gustan nuestros podcasts, puedes ayudarnos con una corta reseña en iTunes contribuyendo así a que más personas puedan conocernos y escucharnos. Gracias a todos los que ya han escrito algún comentario. Thank you to all of you who are writing reviews. Thank you very much for listening to this podcast, and for being part of the community of La Mansión del Inglés. Remember, If you want to contact us you can find us on Facebook. Just search Facebook for La Mansión del Inglés where you can ask questions, make comments and do exercises and practise your listening. Or you can send me an email to: mansionteachers@yahoo.es. You can also follow us on Twitter where we tweet useful links to improve your English, English slang vocabulary, quotations and much more. Our Twitter name is MansionTwit. Puedes ver el cuaderno mensual de este mes, y todos los cuadernos anteriores en www.cuadernodeingles.com/ Until next month then, keep practising and taking your English to the next level! Take care and bye for now!   The music in this month’s podcast is by Revolution Void, the album is The Politics of Desire and the track is called Outer Orbit.                                              Mansion Ingles Podcast October 2013 - Aprende gramática y vocabulario inglés   Hello once again and welcome to another Mansion Ingles podcast. This is podcast number 66 recorded for October 2013.   En el nivel básico practicamos las colacaciones de los verbos, y también un poco de vocabulario general. En el nivel intermedio estudiamos el uso de los verbos GET, GO y HAVE y también una selección de preguntas sobre la gramática. In the advanced section, we practise more advanced collocations, and there's business vocabulary as usual, and a translation exercise, all to help you improve your English and take it to the next level.   En los podcasts mensuales hablamos de los temas, vocabulario y ejercicios que salen en nuestro cuaderno mensual. Así podéis practicar la pronunciación y repasar el material del cuaderno. Si quieres recibir gratis el cuaderno cada mes, ver la trascripción de este podcast o leer los anteriores, ve a mansioningles.com y sigue los enlaces en la página principal.   Antes de empezar, quiero dar las gracias a todos nuestros seguidores en Facebook. Ya tenemos más de 30,000 fans y seguimos creciendo cada día. Si tienes alguna pregunta, comentario o duda sobre el inglés o simplemente quieres hacer ejercicios adicionales, puedes encontrarnos en facebook.com/mansioningles   Ok, let's start then with el nivel básico to make a noise - hacer un ruido - hacer se puede traducir como to make o to do, pero cuando va con el sustantivo a noise, decimos make a noise. Repite: make a noise. Shhh...don't make a noise they're sleeping. Who was making all that noise last night?   También decimos take photos Repite: take photos - How many photos did you take? I took hundreds of photos.   Estoy seguro que sabes que en inglés decimos drive a car or drive a bus or a taxi. Pero cuando hablamos de las motos, las bicicletas y los animales decimos ride - R-I-D-E Repite: to ride a bike, ride a horse, ride a motorbike. Can you ride a motorbike? Have you ever ridden a horse? I would love to ride an elephant. I rode a camel in Egypt.   ¿Cómo se traduce 'llevar gafas'? to wear glasses Repite; wear -wear glasses. I wear glasses - I've been wearing glasses for years. He's wearing a jacket - Are you wearing jeans? Luego tenemos la expresión to run for the bus. Repite: the bus - run for - run for the bus. I ran for the bus this morning.   ¿Como se dice suerte en inglés? - luck - Repite: luck - Luck es un sustantivo. ¿Cuál es el adjetivo? - lucky. Repite: Lucky. I'm lucky! Are you lucky? Are you a lucky person? I am. I think I'm very lucky.   El verbo to book significa reservar. For example you can book a room in a hotel. Repite: to book - to book a room. Can I book a room, please? I'd like to book a room. También puedes book a table in a restaurant. Repite: to book a table. Can I book a table, please? I'd like to book a table for two, please.   If you book a room in a hotel, you stay in the hotel. Repite: stay in the hotel. Where are you staying. Are you staying in a hotel?   ¿Cómo se dice mandar un correo electrónico en inglés? - to send an email. Repite: send an email. Did you send me an email? I'll send you an email. I'll send you an email next week.   Very good! - ¡Muy bien!   También en el nivel básico este mes hemos practicado un poco de vocabulario. Vamos a ver si te acuerdas de las palabras.     A dress, skirt, trousers, shirt, socks are all examples of.....clothes. Repite: clothes. I like your clothes. I need new clothes.   What do you cut your food with? You cut your food with a...... knife - K-N-I-F-E. Repite: Knife. knife and fork - knife, fork and spoon. Can I have a knife, please?   Spring, summer, autumn and winter are the four....seasons. Repite: seasons. What's your favourite season? I like spring and autumn. I think autumn is my favourite season. En el inglés americano, autumn se dice fall - F-A-L-L because the leaves, las ojas, caen de los arboles.   What do you usually drink tea and coffee and hot chocolate from? You drink tea and coffee from a ....cup. Not a glass, a cup. You drink Coca Cola from a glass, you drink beer from a glass. You drink tea and coffee from a cup. Repite: cup - a cup - a coffee cup - a tea cup. A cup of coffee. A cup of tea.   Now, what is the name of the part of the house where you cook? You cook in the ....kitchen. Repite: kitchen. Ten cuidado con la diferencia entre kitchen and chicken. Chicken is pollo.  Repite: kitchen - chicken - kitchen. We cook in the kitchen. The chicken's in the kitchen.   What's the name for the room where you usually have a shower, clean your teeth or wash your face? It's the bathroom. Repite: bathroom. Excuse me, where's the bathroom?     Ok good, now moving on to the intermediate section,   Listen: 'Have you ever been to this restaurant?’  - ‘No, this is the first time.’   'Have you been' is the present perfect tense. Listen: Have you been to New York? Has estado una vez en Nueva York? Repite: Have you been to New York? Have you been here before? Have you ever eaten Japanese food?   Listen: We don’t have to be at the meeting. 'Have to' is similar to 'must' for obligation. The difference is that 'must' is often external obligation (it comes from outside the speaker) and 'have to' can be the obligation you feel inside. For example, your boss says "Everyone must go to the meeting", so you feel you have to. The government says "you must pay your taxes" so we all have to pay our taxes. A mother tells her son that he 'must do his homework', so the son tells his friend "I can't play with you now because I have to do my homework. My mother says I have to do my homework."   Another difference of course is that 'have to' can change to the past: "I had to do my homework" and to the future "I will have to do my homework" or "I'll have to do my homework". We cannot say, X"I will must do my homework."X That's wrong!   Repeat: I'll have to work on Saturday. - I had to work late yesterday. Do we have to go to the meeting?   Listen to a different example from the same exercise: "I didn't remember where I had parked my car." Listen again. Which verb tenses do you hear? "I didn't remember where I had parked my car." Did is the past of do, so didn't remember is past simple. What about the second verb tense? I "had parked". Had + past participle is the past perfect tense. I had is often contracted to I'd. Repeat: I'd parked - I'd parked my car. I didn't remember - I didn't remember where I'd parked my car. (No recordaba dónde había aparcado el coche.) Repeat again: I didn't remember where I'd parked my car. - I didn't remember where I'd left my bag. I didn't remember what I'd said to her - I didn't remember what I'd done with my keys.   Escucha otro ejemplo y, como antes, piensa cuales son los tiempos verbales: I was sitting on the train when suddenly my mobile rang.   I was sitting - past continuous - my mobile rang - past simple. The sitting is the longer action. I was sitting before my mobile rang. I was sitting when my mobile rang, and I was sitting after my mobile rang. Repeat: I was sitting - I was sitting on the train - I was sitting on the train when my mobile rang. I was watching TV when I heard a noise. I was reading when you arrived. I was sleeping when you phoned.   Here's one more example from the same exercise. Listen: Exercising before breakfast is the best time if you want to burn calories. Why is 'exercising' a gerund in this sentence? Why is it verb + ing? Well, it's because we often use a gerund as the subject of the sentence. Repeat: Exercising is good for you. Smoking is bad for your health. Jogging is a popular pastime. Reading is something I don't do very often.   In the next exercise in this month's 'cuaderno', we looked at some expressions with the verbs get, go and have. Listen and repeat the sentences to practise pronunciation. Listen:                                                                 How many e-mails do you usually get? Repeat: usually get - do you usually get - How many? How many emails? - How many e-mails do you usually get?   Listen: Does she usually get drunk? Repeat: get drunk - usually - usually get drunk - Does she? - Does she usually get drunk?   Listen: Did you have a shower? Repeat: have a - have a shower - Did you? - Did you have a shower?   Listen: Did you go away for the summer? Repeat: the summer - for the summer - go away - go away for the summer - Did you - Did you go away for the summer?   Listen: Did you go anywhere nice? Repeat: nice - anywhere - anywhere nice - Did you go? Did you go anywhere nice?   Listen: What time did you get home? Repeat: get home - did you - did you get home - What time? - What time did you get home?   Listen: Do you always get up early? Repeat: early - get up early (nota como se junta el sonido final de /up/ con el sonido vocal al principio de /early/ - up early. Repeat: up early - get up early - Do you always? - Do you always get up early?   Listen: Did you go out on Saturday? Repeat: on Saturday - go out - go out on Saturday - Did you go out on Saturday?   Listen: Where did you did you get your phone? Repeat: your phone - get your phone - Where did you? - Where did you get? Where did you get your phone?   Listen: Where did you go for lunch? Repeat: lunch - for -  for lunch - go for lunch - Where did you? - Where did you go for lunch?   Listen: Who did you have dinner with yesterday? Repeat: have dinner with - have dinner with yesterday - Who did you? - Who did you have dinner with yesterday?   Siempre me ha gustado la idea de aprender inglés con videos. Por eso te recomendamos ABA English. Los videos de ABA English son muy profesionales y están muy bien hechos.    Además de las 144 clases gratuitas de gramática en vídeo, también tienes la posibilidad de probar la primera unidad de tu nivel (hay 6 niveles distintos) y realizar todas las secciones de esta unidad para probar su metodología única de aprendizaje.    Tú aprendes inglés viendo películas cortas con subtítulos, que ya es un método muy eficaz para aprender inglés,  pero también actúas en estas películas! Es muy divertido! En la misma unidad realizas ejercicios de speaking y role play actuando en el diálogo del cortometraje que has visto!   Los cortometrajes, con situaciones de la vida real, son la base de cada unidad del curso de inglés. Llevan incorporada la tecnología de reconocimiento de voz propia.  Echa un vistazo a los videos de ABA English.com. Puedes empezar los cursos gratis sin coste alguno y además con apoyo en español. Al empezar, tienes que facilitar una dirección de email y contestar algunas preguntas básicas, pero no es necesario que realices ningún pago. Pienso que si una empresa ofrece un producto gratis para probarlo es porque es bueno y la empresa cree en sus productos.   ¡Regístrate hoy y aprende inglés gratis con video, en casa y a tu ritmo. ABA English.com! Pruébalo no tienes nada de perder. In the advanced section this month, we looked at some more collocations. The first of which was to make the best of something which means to do as well as possible with something that is not too promising. Repeat: I'll make the best of it. I don't like it, but I'll make the best of it. we can also say 'make the most of it'. Repeat: make the most of it. Make the most of a bad situation. Make the most of a bad job. Make the most of your time in the UK. (¡aprovechadlo!)   Now, if you draw (someone’s) attention to something, you attract someone to notice or focus on someone or something. Repeat: draw your attention to - let me draw your attention to this wonderful painting. My attention was drawn to a small insect on the floor.   If you jump for joy you are extremely happy. Repeat: I jumped for joy when I got my exam results. When she agreed to have dinner with me I jumped for joy. The children jumped for joy when we got to Disneyland.   To draw out something means to make it longer than it needs to be. Repeat: to draw out a meeting. It wasn't necessary to draw out the meeting for so long. Why does he have to draw it out so much? Repeat: to draw out something.   If you make allowances (for something) you take certain facts or circumstances into consideration. Repeat: to make allowances for. When we go to the UK we should make allowances for the weather. You have to make allowances for the age of the property.   If you jump or are thrown in at the deep end, you start doing something new and difficult without help or preparation. Repeat: jump in at the deep end / thrown in at the deep end. I was thrown in at the deep end when I worked in a professional kitchen for the first time. You should jump in at the deep end and buy your first computer. Repeat: jump in at the deep end - I was thrown in at the deep end.   stand a chance (of doing something) is another popular collocation. It means there's a possibility. You have a chance that something will happen. Repeat: stand a chance - Do you think I stand a chance? Do I stand a chance of winning? No, I don't think you stand a chance to be honest! You don't stand a chance of getting that job.   Our last expression was to jump the gun which means to start before the starting signal. Guns used to be used to start a race. If you start before the gun goes 'bang' you jump the gun. Repeat: jump the gun. Don't jump the gun. Be patient! You're always jumping the gun. He apologised for jumping the gun.     In the Business English section this month we looked at some more business English vocabulary, and the first expression was to become head of something. This means to be in charge, to manage (ser el jefe). Repeat: She's head of sales. He's head of design. She became head of the company in March. Who's head of the department?   Let's discuss means vamos hablar de.... Repeat: let's discuss the sales figures. Let's discuss your role in the company. Let's discuss the release date of the new product.   outsourcing is subcontracting to an outside company. In Spanish, I think it's subcontratación o la externalización of a product or service. Repeat: outsourcing. Many companies are outsourcing their manufacturing. It's cheaper to outsource the work.   Finally, the phrasal verb to run on means to continue without stopping or go on longer than expected. Repeat. Run on. What's the past of run? - ran. Repeat: the meeting ran on. - The meeting ran on for nearly three hours. - The story ran on for months.   ¡Muy bien! - Very good!   We also gave you some more sentences to translate in this month's cuaderno. First, you had to translate from English to Spanish. So,  I'll say the English sentences and you say the Spanish translation before I do. Then, repeat the English sentence after me to practise pronunciation. Are you ready?   They didn’t want to stay here. - No querían quedarse aquí. Repite: They didn’t want to stay here. - stay here - to stay here - They didn’t want - They didn’t want to stay here.   Unemployment is increasing / rising / going up. - El paro está subiendo. Repite: Unemployment - Unemployment is increasing - rising - Unemployment is rising - going up - Unemployment is going up.   Don’t talk to me about economics. - No me hables de economía. Repite: economics - talk to me - Don't talk to me - Don’t talk to me about economics.   The economy is beyond our control.  - La economía está más allá de nuestro control. Repite: the economy - beyond our control - The economy is beyond our control.   How many beers do we have left? - ¿Cuántas cervezas nos quedan? Repite: left - have left - How many? How many beers? How many beers do we have left? How many beers do we have left?   Good, now I'll read some Spanish sentences and you translate to English before I do. Then repeat the sentences after me to practise your pronunciation. OK? ¿Quieres decir que ésta es la última? - Do you mean this is the last one? Repeat: the last one - this is the last one. Do you mean? - Do you mean this is the last one?   Habrá más vino. - There’ll be more wine. Repeat: more wine - There will - there'll - there will be - there'll be - There’ll be more wine.   Corrieron a la farmacia. - They ran to the pharmacy/chemist (UK) /drugstore (US) Repeat: They ran to - They ran to the pharmacy - They ran to the chemist - They ran to the drugstore.   ¿Por qué no querían quedarse? - Why didn’t they want to stay? Repeat: want to stay - Why didn't they? - Why didn’t they want to stay?   Dijeron que tenían muchas cosas que hacer. - They said they had a lot of things to do. Repeat: things to do - a lot of - a lot of things to do - They said they had - They said they had a lot of things to do. - They said they had a lot of things to do.   Well, I've got a lot of things to do also, so unfortunately that's the end of this podcast, but we'll be back with you next month as usual with another podcast based on our monthly newsletter, our cuaderno de inglés mensual. Remember, you can listen to all our previous podcasts at mansioningles.com and of course on iTunes.   Si te gustan nuestros podcasts, puedes ayudarnos con una corta reseña en iTunes contribuyendo así a que más personas puedan conocernos y escucharnos. Gracias a todos los que ya han escrito algún comentario. Thank you to all of you who are writing reviews.   Thank you very much for listening to this podcast, and for being part of the community of La Mansión del Inglés.   Remember, If you want to contact us you can find us on Facebook. Just search Facebook for La Mansión del Inglés where you can ask questions, make comments and do exercises and practise your listening. Or you can send me an email to: mansionteachers@yahoo.es. You can also follow us on Twitter where we tweet useful links to improve your English, English slang vocabulary, quotations and much more. Our Twitter name is MansionTwit.   Puedes ver el cuaderno mensual de este mes, y todos los cuadernos anteriores en www.cuadernodeingles.com/   Until next month then, keep practising and taking your English to the next level! Take care and bye for now!   The music in this month’s podcast is by Revolution Void, the album is The Politics of Desire and the track is called Outer Orbit.                                            

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  • 01:36:34

    Road Trip Rant: It’s Time To Get Real About HOW To Have Success...

    · The Marketing Secrets Show

    If you’re not as successful yet as you’d like to be… I know why. This episode I went off on a 96 minute rant that’ll get you back on track. On today’s special road trip edition of the podcast Russell talks about some exciting events coming up, some personal development rules he follows, and why it’s okay for people to outgrow Clickfunnels. Here are some of the cool things to look forward to in this episode: The viral video by the Harmon Brothers and the kind of party that is planned for it. Why Russell thinks studying, learning and geeking out on the marketing of your product is the key to success. Why it’s okay to be greedy in the initial stages of your business. How building and growing a business is similar to making, being pregnant with, and birthing a baby. What the 3 steps toward personal development that Russell follows are. Why you need to be willing to take risks. What some Clickfunnels clients are doing that they shouldn’t and why Russell is a little pissed off about it. And much, much more. So listen here to hear this extra long, extra informative and extra exciting episode of Marketing Secrets. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to a special edition, a road trip version, edition, whatever you want to call it of Marketing Secrets podcast. I feel like we’re going old school, for our long time friends and followers, this is like a Marketing In Your Car.  But I’ve got a long drive ahead and I want to welcome you guys to the podcast. Alright, alright everybody. I just started a super long road trip heading to Burley, Idaho. It is my wife’s grandma’s 100th birthday. So we’re heading down to the big birthday party. Isn’t that crazy, 100 years old! It’s really, really fun. My wife and kids actually left a day and a half ago. I had to get some stuff done, so now I’m heading down for the big party. So basically I have a two hour road trip and was heading out the door, super excited and I’m totally unprepared. I forgot my camera to record podcasts, I forgot my little ear buds, I forgot my sunglasses. Oh well, what can you do? I forgot my battery charger for my phone, oh well I’m still excited. So I’m heading down and I’ve got some time to talk to you guys. So I wanted to share some cool things. First off, one thing we’re working on is, as you’ve probably heard, we’re about to launch our viral video with the Harmon Brothers. They’re the guys that did Squatty Potty and Poopourri and all the other awesome things. What’s funny, everyone asks me, “Oh I want to hire them too, their stuff is awesome. How much does it cost?” and I think people think the quote is going to be like 10 or 15 grand or something, but it’s actually half a million dollars to hire them to do a 3 minute video for you. It’s not cheap. So we paid a lot of money to get this video created and then I was like man, most people do a video and then they launch it and it kind of just, you hope it goes well and sometimes it does, but I’m like, if we’re going to launch it, I want as much oompf behind it as humanly possible. So I was like, we need to do a launch party. So that was kind of the first thought, but how do we do a launch party? I’ve never done one before but it’s gotta be just kind of like a regular party. Well maybe we should get some cool speakers, some cool influencers and affiliates out here, so who would be cool to have? Oh Gary Vaynerchuk would be cool. He’s not speaking at Funnel Hacking Live, but he’d be a really cool fit for this event. So we called him up, he said yes. We had to pay him about 100 grand to get him to come to Boise to speak. But we’re like where in Boise is actually cool enough to host an event like this? There’s not a lot of cool hotels. So the Boise State football stadium, the big Skybox there, is kind of cool and hold 3 or 400 people. So we’re like, cool we’ll do this. We rent the Skybox, but who are we going to invite. We need to make this really, really cool. I think it was Alex Charfen told me this, it might not have been him, but I think it was. Basically said that entrepreneurs like to create events out of everything to make it memorable for them and for everybody else. So I was like, we need to make a big event. So anyway, it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. We can invite our affiliates, that’ll be kind of fun, we’ll invite a bunch of them. But who else can we invite that can share this video? We can invite people that aren’t necessarily our affiliates, just other influencers that if they share the video it would dramatically boost it. So okay, let’s do that. So we set up this event, I was going to speak, Harmon Brothers were going to speak, Gary was going to speak, then we start reaching out to influencers and they’re like, “We don’t really care about people speaking. We want a party.” And we’re like, it’s going to be kind of a fun party. We’re all fun people. They’re like, “No we need a real party.” So we’re like, how do we throw a real party? So we started just kind of brainstorming and what came out of the brainstorm was what if we rented out the actual football stadium and tried to play bubble soccer, that’d be kind of fun. What if instead of playing bubble soccer, what if we tried to play the biggest game of bubble soccer ever? What if we had the Guinness Book of World Records come and…. Anyway, that was kind of the initial crazy thought and then Dave was like, “I’m going to figure out how to make this work.” So Dave spent the next two weeks on the phone getting the Guinness Book of World Records, and then getting Boise State to let us come, and all the licensing fees and it’s been this insane project. So we got all that done. We don’t have any influencers who have kind of, we’re in this thing with a lot of money. We have no influencers actually coming. So then I was like, okay, I have to go old school. Practice what I preach. So the last two days I’ve sat in this car and recorded almost 200 videos, personalized videos for all these influencers, which was a lot of work. We made a page, 200 pages for 200 different influencers and now Monday, we’re in the process of contacting all of them and inviting them to this huge party. Anyway, it’s been crazy and none of them may come, but hopefully they will. But regardless it’ll be a fun party. We’re going to set a world record, we’re going to launch a viral video and that’s one of the many things we’re doing. We also have 12 events in the next 43 days happening in Boise. One of them just got done so it’s actually down to 11. Monday we have a design-a-thon where we’ve got 30 designers coming out and we’re busting out a whole bunch of new templates for the Marketplace that’s launching during the new onboarding, everything’s going live in Clickfunnels when the viral videos hits and about a billion other things. It’s crazy. The next 45 days will probably be the most stressful, crazy days of my life. But if we can pull it off, it’s going to be nuts. I keep saying that, I did the same thing with the book launch. I think there’s something about me, I think something’s wrong, the wiring in my head where I always think that after this life will get normal again. But then I just keep stacking things on. I think part of it is just momentum, it’s hard to get momentum for a lot of people. But when you have momentum you don’t want to slow down, you want to keep riding the wave. So I feel like I’m 14 minutes into my 15 minutes of fame and I’m enjoying the ride and I don’t want to slow down, so I’m like, we just keep rolling stuff out. We’re launching a new book, the Funnel Hacker Cookbook, this month. It’s crazy. If you guys could see what’s actually happening behind the scenes, I don’t think you’d actually believe it. Funnel Hacker TV, we started filming that because we wanted to show people, but that’s still just a glimpse, it doesn’t come close to everything that’s actually happening. It’s nuts. Alright, so for you guys I wanted to share, because I’ve been thinking a lot about this last night as I was working super late. I was like, why am I here? It’s been two nights that I’ve been here until like 2:30 in the morning and I’m loving it. Outside of hanging out with my kids, there’s nothing else I would rather do than that. And I’m like, how do I get people to where they’re this passionate about what they do and their business and what they’re selling? I did a podcast a little while ago talking about the number one trait I found between entrepreneurs who are successful and those who aren’t and the biggest trait is that the ones who are super successful, they’re the ones who are extremely passionate, not just about their product but about the marketing of their product.  They start geeking out on the marketing. That’s the key. Those who obsess with the marketing are the ones who have the most success, which is why for me it’s been a big deal, that’s why I wrote the Dotcom Secrets book and the Expert Secrets book, and why I do the events. All the stuff I do is because my goal is to get you guys, I want to make marketing and sales fun. If this is something that you guys, if I could make this the entertainment. To study and learn and geek out on the marketing, then that’s been my mission on this earth. Because when I was learning this stuff, it was exciting for me but honestly it was kind of boring. The people teaching and talking about marketing, yawn, they were boring and I had to wade through a lot of boring crap and now I’m trying to make it exciting. I’m trying to bring my raw passion to you guys and I hope I’m doing my job. I’m doing my best. Because if you get pumped up and fired up about the marketing of your thing, then that’s how you get the ability to make money, free yourself, and give you the ability to not just make the money but impact more people and serve more people and that’s the goal. So I’m thinking, outside of me just everyday trying to get you guys pumped and excited and fired up about how much fun the marketing of your thing can be, I was thinking about this last night, how do I just take that part of my brain out and shove it into your brain so you’re fired up. I started thinking about it and I think the key for someone to be truly passionate about the marketing and the selling of their thing, they first have to be truly passionate about their thing. Because you think about that, I talked a little bit about this in the Expert Secrets book, initially you don’t wake up, well I did, but I think most people don’t, maybe that was my gift of whatever. But most people don’t wake up excited, “I’m going to learn how to do marketing!” It’s not the thing that pumps people up. But there’s something else that happens, there’s something that you got excited about in your life. It could a book you read, it could be audio, could be video, could be just a weird thing, I don’t know. Whatever it is that your thing is. Everyone has their thing, your thing is something. So your thing that got you pumped up, whatever that was, I want you to think about that because that’s the key that unlocks everything. First you get excited about that thing because it’s exciting to you. You go through this time of growth. You start studying it and you learn and geek out and start growing and growing and growing and growing and at first it’s honestly kind of a selfish thing. There’s nothing wrong with that. What’s the dude from Wallstreet say? Greed is good. Initially it is, I think. Not long term, but short term greed is good. Greed is what gets you to unbalance your life in a way initially, not long term but initially. Initially you have unbalance your life to focus on a thing to have greatness come. When I met my beautiful wife and I wanted to fall in love with her, for me to be successful in that I had to be greedy. I had to shift all my time and all the other stuff I was doing and other people and other things. I had to unbalance my life to focus everything on that relationship so that we could fall in love and get married. The same thing happened with business. The same thing happened with wrestling. When I started wrestling, I had to be greedy about that thing. I had to get so unbalanced in every other thing in my life and just focus on that thing, because that’s what it takes to be great at anything, right. That raw passion. So first, the greed of that thing, of you desiring that thing is what initially starts. Some of you guys it was weight loss, some of you guys it was Biohacking, some of you guys it was finance, some of you guys it was history. It doesn’t matter, whatever it is that you geek out about. So the greed of the excitement that you feel initially for that thing is what makes it so you can completely unbalance your life and absorb and go into that thing. That’s the first key because to be an expert, to be able to share your message, all those things we talk about and to actually care about the marketing about your thing, you’ve got to be ridiculously passionate about the thing first. Otherwise you’re not going to wade into this territory, you’re going to go through all the pain of being an entrepreneur and getting that thing out into the world. Because I know a lot of us paint this beautiful picture of entrepreneurship and it is eventually, but initially it’s not. Initially it sucks. Initially you have to go through so much. It’s like giving birth. My wife has given birth to 5 kids, 4 times, one time was twins. Giving birth is not pleasurable. The initial thought of it, that creates the baby. That’s pleasurable just like your business, the thought of it is exciting. You’re romantic about the thing you’re going to create. Sorry, my jeep is super loud when I go into overdrive. Anyway, that’s pleasurable, we all enjoy that. I enjoyed what it took to get my wife pregnant, that’s awesome I enjoyed what it took to create the seed of Clickfunnels and the business, right. That part’s fun, and then after the romantic side happens, for pregnancy there’s nine months of pain for the woman. My wife, I watched her go through this 4 times. She gained weight, she felt horrible, she felt sick, she was throwing up. Business is the same way, after you go through the romantic part, now it’s painful. You have to work hard and you can’t sleep and you have to deprive yourself of friends and family and life and all the pleasures in life to birth this thing that you have. And most people give up during the birthing process, because it sucks. With a baby you got no option, the baby’s coming whether you want it to or not, but the birthing of a business and to be an entrepreneur, it’s so painful most people don’t make it through it. They always say that 1 out of 100 businesses succeed, but the reality, 1 out of a million businesses never even get to fruition because the idea is planted, but the birthing of the thing never happens because it’s so painful. So if you’re not obsessively, insanely passionate about your thing, I’ve got to break it to you, it’s going to be hard to birth it. Those hard times come and it sucks. So I think that not only do you have to become passionate about the market, because I’m trying to make that part fun, so the birthing process is actually fun. Maybe I’m the equivalent of the hypno-birthing class. My wife and I did hypno-birthing for the last kid, which was actually really cool. We did classes and they tried to make it really, really fun. So maybe I’m the hypno-birthing coach. Trying to make the process of birth fun for you even though you know it’s still going to suck. But maybe you can have a good time along the way, you should, it is really fun. But I was like, if you’re going to go through that birth process, you have to be so excited about the baby, that’s the key. My wife and I were so excited about the twins, we were so excited for the other kids and that’s why she was willing to endure that pain because we were so passionate and excited about the kids. So for you, it starts with before you can be an entrepreneur, before you can birth this thing, you have to be insanely passionate about your thing. And there are people who will tell you otherwise. “No, it’s math…blah blah.” I don’t know, I think you can make money without passion, but you can’t leave a legacy, you can’t do what’s really important without it. So my next phase of this, we got a long road trip, you guys. I hope you don’t mind. But the next phase of this is how you become passionate about this thing? You’re like, Russell I see you. You’re jumping around, excited, screaming every single day, but I wake up in the morning and I’m tired. I wake up in the morning and I don’t always feel that passion. And I get that. I want to share some stuff, this is maybe personal development, according to Russell. I don’t teach personal development, I probably never will, but I have my thoughts on it, I have my feelings. So I do a lot of it myself. So I’m going to give you, during our road trip together, some of my thoughts and the personal development stuff that I had to go through and we have to go through and hopefully some of these things will help. So number one, the first thing is all of you guys, you’ve got to quit being so bleh. That’s the official term for it, bleh. My daughter, she puts on this little monster mask, it’s so cute and then she’ll go “bleh.” That’s what most of you guys are doing. If I ask you what you’re working on, you’re like, “Bleh.” You’ve got to be excited, if you’ve listened to the podcast, probably three hundred episodes ago I did one talking about being awesome. People always ask you, “How are you doing?” and everyone goes, “I’m alright. I’m doing okay.” First off, if you’re doing okay, it means your life sucks. You need to stop it. “I’m doing okay.” My kids, I told them, when somebody asks you how you’re doing, you never say I’m doing okay. I’m doing good. Good is the enemy to great. If you’re doing good, that’s not a good thing. If you’re going to change the world you can’t be like, “I’m doing good. It’s alright.” Notice this, everyone will ask how you’re doing and you’ll always say doing good. First thing to change, you are no longer doing good. You are doing awesome, all the time. My kids, if you ask them, “How you doing?” “Awesome.” If you ask me, “How you doing?” “Awesome.” You need to reprogram your brain from “I’m doing alright.” To being awesome. When people ask you that from now on, this is rule number one, you have to say you’re doing awesome. It may seem like a dumb thing, but you will see how it changes people around you. “How you doing?” “I’m doing awesome.” They’re like, “Really. Huh, nobody ever says that.” If you say you’re doing good, bleh. You just did that, bleh. You pulled an Ellie, a monster Ellie. Ellie’s my daughter that does that, bleh. So no more bleh’s. You’re doing awesome. And if you don’t feel awesome, guess what the first step to feeling awesome is? Saying that you’re feeling awesome. Okay, that’s number one. Number two, stay in control. If you ever go to a Tony Robbins event, which you should, if you don’t you’re insane. I’m not allowed to say yet, but he may be hanging out with us at our next Funnel Hacking Live event. But regardless, you should go to at least UPW. You get to walk on fire and hopefully have a chance to go to Date with Destiny as well. If you really want to have a shift in your life, Tony is the person that will take you and shift you. That’s why I don’t teach personal development because Tony is the best in the world and I couldn’t do better, even remotely close, so I’m not even going to try. If I felt like I could I probably would go and try to serve that market, but Tony’s the best, so I’m not going to. So I leave it to Tony and also Brendon Burchard, Brendon’s the man. Tony and Brendon, those dudes will shift yourself, personal development wise, so go and study them. Tony especially, because walking on fire is insanely cool. But one of the main things you learn in Date with Destiny is a thing called state control. So state is the thing that you are in as you are doing something. Sometimes you’re in a happy state, and a bleh state. Most of us we live our lives in a bleh state. You have to learn how to change your state like this. The coolest thing I learned from Tony is that I actually control the state I’m in. I don’t think most people understand that. You control the state you’re in. You can change it, you can be depressed or be happy, you can change it that fast. When I learned that and became aware of it, it was insanely cool. I would have a long horrible day at the office. I’d be beat up and tired, worn out, come home and as most people do, I could walk through the door and be like, bleh. Be a bleh dad. But I was like, no. I don’t want to be a bleh dad. So I walk in tired, beat up, angry sometimes, frustrated, all the crap you go through sometimes during the day, I get to the door and I say, I could either walk in and be a bleh dad, or I can change my state. What am I going to do? I’m going to freaking change my state. So I do what Tony Robbins talks about, there’s three things he calls the triad. I make these three shifts in my life, my physiology, my focus, my meaning, I shift those things and boom, that fast I walk in and guess what? I’m not a bleh dad, I’m a freaking awesome dad. I have fun with my kids, I play with my kids, and they’re going to remember that. When I walk in the office, some days I haven’t slept for more than an hour. I walk into the office and guess what I feel like? I feel like I want to die sometimes, I’m so tired. I walk in and could be like, bleh. But guess what happens if I walk in at state, guess what happens to all the people around me? They will match my state, because I’m the leader. If I walk in like bleh, they will all become bleh. This is the official term by the way, it’s bleh. So if I walk in bleh, they’re all going to be bleh. If I walk in at a freaking ten, they are all going to rise to my level, to my state. State control is huge. You can control your own state, but the other cool thing is that you can control the state of the people that are around you. People always come to our office and they’re like, “Is it always like this?” the answer is yes. Why is it like this? It’s because I’m freaking setting the pace when I walk in during the day. I walk in knowing that the pace that I set, everyone’s going to match me at that pace. If I come in bleh, they’re going to be bleh. I work with other companies, and partners and friends and people and what’s interesting, we will work with employees of a business owner and whatever the state of the business owner is, and you know that by seeing their videos and all their stuff, the entire company matches that state. It’s insane. So if I want to dominate the world, I gotta learn to change my state. So understanding state control is huge and so much more simple than you think. Tony Robbins talked about, go to UPW. There’s three things, he calls it a triad, there’s three things that are involved in state control. I’ll kind of go through these, I’ll probably just slaughter them, so go study Tony. Worst case, go to YouTube and type in “Tony Robbins State Control” or something, I’m sure you can get some videos of him teaching it as well. But the triad, there’s three things you gotta change. The first thing is your physiology. You’re body, this amazing gift that God has given us functions and drives everything. Have you ever notice that depressed people look depressed? Bleh. Sad people what do they do? They look sad. They’re body matches and mirrors how they feel. So a lot of times you think, “I’m sad, that’s why my body’s like this. My shoulders are drooping because I’m bleh.” Sometimes, because your body’s drooping, that’s why you’re sad. Just changing your physiology, changing your state, how you hold your body, will actually change how you feel. It’s insane. He talked about a group of people who were clinically depressed, not just I’m depressed, I’m sad, clinically depressed. They were in a clinic, they were in rehab because they had such bad depression. They took this group of like 50 clinically depressed people and took them off all their depression medication, which all medication really does is change your state. Changes our physiology, honestly we’ll talk about that in a minute, but it takes them off all their meds and makes them stand in front of a mirror for thirty minutes a day, with their shoulders back, smiling. Even if it’s a fake smile, or angry, makes them smile for thirty minutes. Guess what happened? Just by changing their physiology and forcing themselves to smile for 30 days, every one of the people who had clinical depression were healed. They were miraculously saved from their depression. Now there are times when, I have friends and family members that deal with depression, so I’m not short changing that, but I promise you that by shifting your physiology you can shift everything. It’s huge. I’ve seen people who are depressed shift their state, shift their body and they get un-depressed. It’s crazy. So if I want to be in a happy mood, if I want to be in a good state for my kids, my wife, my whatever. If I’m going to a meeting or whatever, the state, how I hold my body has a ton to do, 50% of how I enter a room has to do with the outcome of what’s going to happen. That’s not scientifically proven, that’s just what I’m guestimating based on what happens. That’s a big thing. So figure that out. How do you control your body? Look at what depressed people look like and if you hold your body in a way that depressed people hold their body, you’re going to be depressed. If you hold your body the way sad people hold it, you’re going to be sad. If you hold it in a way of the happy people, you’re going to be happy. Look right here right now, do I look happy? The reason why I’m doing this, if you watch Funnel Hacker TV, “Why is Russell so excited?” Because when I’m in an excited mood, I feel better, I get more done. I get people around me to raise to my level of vibration and they get excited as well. There’s this weird thing, and this is scriptural, for those that are the church going folk, and those who aren’t it doesn’t even matter. Light cleaveth to light and dark cleaveth to darkness. One of my coaches, Tara Williams talks about this all the time, vibes, vibrations. People like, “He’s got a good vibe, she’s got a good vibe.” Sense the vibration. And if you think of this like tuning forks. Let’s say you have a tuning fork here and you want to, if you hit two tuning forks next to each other, they will eventually match their vibrations. There’s a high pitched one, a low pitched one, they will meet in the middle because vibrations match. Light cleaveth to light, dark to dark. The same thing happens with you. If you come in and you’re a tuning fork and your vibration’s high, people are going to suck you down to their level and you’ll be depressed. Or you’re going to come in and freaking just blow your mind with the level of energy and vibration and everybody will rise to you. You have to understand that. They’re either going to suck you down, or you’re going to rise up. That’s one part of state control, is understanding that your body has so much to do with it. Now that you understand that, how else can you control your body? This is why us nerdy, entrepreneur, biohacking people talk about the importance of our body. Alex Charfen at the Pirates Cove mastermind said that “for any of you entrepreneurs that aren’t treating your body like a professional athlete, you’re insane. You’re doing things that professional athletes aren’t. You’re trying to accomplish things that they can’t even fathom. If you’re not taking care of your body, you’re insane.” It’s true, what you put into your body effects your physiology. When I eat crap, guess how I feel? Crap. People always ask me why I take so many supplements. Because different supplements I take effect my physiology. I have rules with my supplements. Most of you all know, I’m a Mormon, therefore I don’t do a lot of things. I don’t do alcohol, tobacco, coffee, tea, any other crazy stuff, I don’t do a lot of these, but there’s some supplements that I do take because they affect my physiology. I do take some caffeine, because caffeine affects you physiology. You take it, it increases your energy. Your physiology changes, it helps me get into state faster. There’s other supplements I take, I could go days on supplements, but there’s things I take because they affect my physiology. There’s things I don’t eat because they affect my physiology. If you look at how I eat, I usually don’t eat breakfast. The reason why is breakfast typically makes me feel sluggish and tired, my physiology goes down. I usually eat one huge meal a day. When I’m at the office Melanie makes me this huge salad, it’s got high fats, tons of vegetables, I eat it and there’s almost no carbs outside of the carbs inside of vegetables because carbs make me feel sluggish and tired. I don’t want to feel tired. So I just eat the vegetables meats and fats because that keeps my energy, my physiology good. When I’m at home, if I’m going to eat junk, typically I eat it at the end of the night, when I’m about to go to bed, because at that point I don’t care about my physiology, I’m going to fall asleep. But I don’t eat at dinner, I usually won’t eat all the other nice stuff. I’ll go and pick the veggies, the meat off, whatever my wife makes and I’ll eat that because I know that if I eat the rice and the carbs, stuff like that, guess what happens? My physiology drains and I’m going to be a worse dad for my kids. I know how it works. So if I want to stay in peak state for my kids, I have to stay in, I gotta keep my physiology going, so I’m very careful of what I eat. Sometimes, I’m not as good as a lot of my biohacking buddies, sometimes I just screw up, and if my physiology…this is probably the bad thing. This is the negative of personal development. But if I eat something and feel like crap, I’m like, “Well, I feel like crap. I’m going to feel like crap no matter what, I might as well make my taste buds feel good.” So then I go all out and if I have a bad day, I have a really bad day. Because I’m physiologically jacked anyway, let’s have some fun. Anyway, there you go. Alright, that’s number one. Number two side of the pillar of Tony’s triad is shifting what you focus on. Have you noticed that depressed people focus on depressing things? Have you noticed that happy people focus on happy things? But Russell, there’s so much sad things happening in the world. I know there is, but guess what I don’t focus on? The sad things that are happening in the world. Guess what I don’t watch? The freaking news. Want to know why? Because the news focuses on depressing things. I don’t want to be depressed. I don’t listen to depressing things. I try to focus on people and things that get me pumped up. I listen to podcasts of people that inspire me, that get me excited. I read things that get me excited. I focus on stuff that gets me excited. In business, crappy stuff happens every single day and I tell you what, when you go from a million dollar company to a 10 to 100, the level of crappy crap that comes up everyday exponentially increases. They say, someone told me the other day that every three months an entrepreneur’s focus with decisions could either make or break them. That’s true when you’re running a million dollar business. When you’re running a hundred million dollar a year business that happens a lot more often. I would say probably every three hours. I’m not kidding. There’s a lot of crap that hits me in the face every single day and if I focus on the negative, I would be in a state of depression right now. I have to look at it and I’m like, “Oh, that sucks. Alright, this is the answer.” And I turn my back and run from it. I do not focus on it for more than 5 seconds, otherwise I will lose my state. What are you focusing on? A lot of you guys get overwhelmed and get stressed. Do you not think I get overwhelmed? I have 12 events happening in the next 47 days. We’re doing the biggest launch in the history of the freaking internet. We’re re-doing the complete onboarding process, I just wrote a new book in the last 30 days. It’s not a tiny book, it’s a freaking cookbook, it’s a 500 page cookbook. We’re doing a design-a-thon in two days. If you knew how much stress I have on my plate.  I don’t know, I’m pretty sure most people would crack under the pressure. I’m shocked that I haven’t yet, but the reason why is because I keep moving on. Dan Gable, the greatest wrestler in the history of wrestling. Well maybe not the greatest anymore, but he is the legend. He is the Michael Jordan of wrestling. So Dan Gable, someone asked him one time, because he went through all of college never losing a match. His very last match he lost, he got so pissed off that he went and started training for the Olympics and he actually became an Olympic champion and not a single person scored on him. And what’s crazy is while he was training for the Olympics, it’s so crazy. The Russians actually said, they came out publically and said, “We are going to train an athlete with the only goal to beat Dan Gable from the Americans.” And Dan Gable was like, “No, I’m the greatest wrestler who’s ever lived, no one’s going to beat me.” So what did Dan do? He would work 7 hours a day, working out 7 hours a day preparing for the Olympics, then he’d go to bed at night. Then as he’d go to bed at night, he laid there in bed saying, “The dude in Russia who is trying to beat me is awake and training right now. And that pisses me off and freaks me out.” So what did Dan Gable do? He woke up at midnight and he’d go running. Because he knew that his opponent was competing, was training and it stressed him out knowing that his opponent was awake while he was sleeping. He did not like that so he got up and kept working out. Is that obsessive? Heck yes. Did he crack under pressure? No, he went to the Olympics and won. Not a single person scored a point on him. That’s Dan Gable. Now someone asked Dan Gable, I heard this in an interview one time, they said, “Dan don’t…” and afterwards Dan went on to become the head wrestling coach of Iowa Hawkeyes and won more NCAA championships in a row than anyone in any sport, I believe. Anyway, insane. And someone asked Dan Gable, “Don’t you believe in pressure?” and Dan’s like, “Yeah, I believe in pressure, it’s everywhere. The difference is that most people sit underneath the pressure and they sit on it. I believe in it, I just don’t put myself underneath it. I step aside and I focus on what I need to get done.” And most of us, it’s that same way. I don’t know about you guys, sometimes I have so much stress and so much pressure, I’m about to crack. Then half of that is just in our heads. So I’ll sit down with a pad of paper, especially at night when I can’t sleep, I sit with a pad of paper and write down what I’m stressing on. I write all those things down, when you write it down it’s like, oh that’s actually not as bad as I thought. And then you can fall asleep, get yourself out of the pressure. Sometimes we’re focusing on all pressure and stress and all this stuff and that’s why we don’t succeed. Don’t do that. Write it all down, prioritize it and be like I can’t control what I can’t control. I’m going to move forward out of the pressure. Go. And sometimes I don’t get crap done. I’m sure that all the stuff I have to get done between now and our viral video launch, most of it is not going to get done.  A lot of it will, most of it will. But sometimes you can’t affect it, so you do whatever you can and as you get closer and closer to deadlines all of the non essentials fall away and then you get the essentials and that’s how the game’s played. Alright, this is fun, we’ve been going 32 minutes you guys. I hope you’ve been having fun. I don’t know where I left off. Physiology, shift your physiology. Number two, what you’re focusing on and then number three, what’s the meaning. I think number three is meaning. If not I’ve been teaching this wrong, or thinking about it wrong. Number three is the meaning we’re attaching to things. A lot of times something bad happens to us and we attach these weird meanings to it. And we, it’s really cool, we have this unique ability as humans to attach meanings to things, right. And usually what happens is subconscious; we don’t know that we’re doing something right. If someone punches you in the face, subconsciously our body attaches a meaning to that. So this person is mad at me, we attach the meaning, I need to fight….sorry, let me step back. Someone punches us, right. Our meaning maker attaches this meaning to the thing. That person is mad at us, we must fight them back. So I go and try to fight someone. Or someone punches us and maybe the meaning is this person is going to kill me, that’s the meaning we attach so then we run away. There’s all sorts of things. Every single day, something is happening and we’re attaching these meanings to it and these meanings direct where we’re going with our thoughts and actions and everything else. But as soon as you’re aware of this, you can actually change the meanings that are coming to you. I actually don’t know if this is part of the triad, it may not be. I can’t remember now. Go YouTube Tony Robbins. Regardless, I want to talk about meaning, because meaning is a big thing. When you’re aware of this it’s kind of cool because now it gives you the ability to kind of shift meanings. So when somebody, we’ve had some morons, and they are morons, this week that have been attacking Clickfunnels and at first I got so mad I want to kill them and fly to their house and beat them, because that’s the wrestler in me. My body attaches a meaning to what they’re doing. But then what’s cool is Tony taught me this technique where you stop and say, okay, what if that’s not the meaning they’re attaching, what if it’s actually this meaning? You shift the meaning that maybe they’re attaching and if you shift the meaning associated with an experience, it’ll change your perspective, which changes everything. So we gotta become good at consciously picking the meaning we’re attaching to things. If someone screws us over we can attach a meaning saying “That person is a horrible person trying to screw me over.” But if you attach that meaning, be careful. Because as soon as you attach that meaning to something, guess what happens? Now the situation you enter, the state you enter is going to be based on that meaning and it can get really bloody and get really bad and things can turn really bad, which is going to increase all these other pressure, noise and other bad stuff. But if you come in and say, “Look, that person is a total douche bag,” I don’t know if I can say that on TV. I apologize if I can’t. Anyway, that person is a horrible person, but maybe their having a bad day today. Maybe they’re struggling, maybe financially, whatever. You attach a different meaning to the situation, then you come and you’re like, man that person screwed me over, but this is probably why he did it. Or why she did. If you attach that meaning it gives you a different set of tools to deal with the situation. So what happens now in my life, if something happens and instantly a meaning is attached by my brain and what I’ve found is that most of the times that the instant meaning that’s attached, is going to leave me in a really negative path. It’s weird how it works. So too often I run down that negative meaning and bad things happen. So I try to consciously stop and try to take the exact opposite. I remember Tony at Date with Destiny he does this thing, he says, “Find an experience in your life that pissed you off.” For me it was something with my wife, and my wife was at the event then, sitting separate, so she was sitting four rows ahead of me and there was an experience and they said to write down the experience, so I wrote it down. They said, “Write down all the meanings you attached to that experience.” I was like, “My wife is mad at me, she doesn’t love me.” I wrote down all these different meanings that I had attached to that situation. And then Tony said, “Write a big line down the side of the paper and next to each of the meanings you attached to that situation, I want you to write the exact opposite of that thing.” So I was like, “My wife is mean to me, but on the other side, she actually loves me. My wife is super selfish, no she is actually so giving that she struggles.” So I wrote the exact opposite of each of the meanings that I had attached to the situation. But what’s crazy is after handwriting out probably three or four of the things, I started crying. I started crying because I realized, I love my wife and I know her, and I realized the true meaning of what happened in that situation, was actually the exact opposite of the meaning I had attached to it. I instantly realized that I was in the wrong and she wasn’t. I broke down crying because I was like, “Oh my gosh. Where else in my life is this happening? Where I’m attaching these meanings subconsciously to a thing and I’m actually wrong?” I realized that day that I have to take control of my meaning maker, the meaning I’m attaching to every single situation. So something happens now and instantly I get the negative meaning, it just happens that’s in our brains wiring for some stupid reason. I stop and I’m like, what’s the opposite of that, what’s something that if I could attach a different meaning would make me look at this person through a different angle, a different lens, a different light? I shift the meaning and it shifts everything. It shifts how I feel about the person. It shifts how I approach them, it shifts the response. It changes everything. I wish I could say I am perfect with this, I am not. If you’ve ever been on the back end of a backlash from me for stuff, I apologize. Because I’m, I can be a prick sometimes. I didn’t realize this until the other day. We have a contractor, he was killing himself for us, and I imagine it’s got to be a pain in the butt working with me sometimes. Because I’m vocal, I’m on TV, I’m on Instagram, I’m ranty and ravy and talking about everything. And without thinking I kind of shared publicly my thoughts and part of it’s because I’m a media personality. If I came out like bleh all the time nobody would listen. So I’m usually on the extremes, I’m extremely happy or extremely upset because that’s what’s interesting. So I feel bad because I published stuff that was negative towards that person. And the other day it was kind of brought to my attention, “Wow, Russell this person is really working his butt off for you and you’re saying these things.” And I had this moment again where I kind of broke down and I was like I’m a bad person sometimes. And the meaning I was attaching to all these situations was like, they’re lazy, they don’t care, they’re not working hard enough, or whatever. I’m attaching all these meanings and I had this fun little moment where I had this exercise where I was like, okay, if I switch the meaning, what’s actually happening? And I was like, oh man, I’m a jerk. I realized it again, so I reached out personally and apologized and I don’t know if it’ll make it better or not, but I was wrong. I’ve had other situations this week where again there’s this person who’s honestly, it’s always the people you help the most. It’s someone I helped a lot, to have a lot of success, I bent over backwards for them and now they’re publically attacking me and us. It’s just….it’s funny, the meaning, even now, the meaning I want to attach to it wants to come in there. I’m like, no stop. Get out of my brain. Because I know, I know the reason why this person is being a douche bag. I’m going to use that word, I apologize. I know the true meaning. It’s not the one that makes me feel better about myself, which sucks because that one makes me feel so much better about myself. But it’s the truth. So I’ve tried to attach that meaning to it, even though every time I think about the situation, my blood’s boiling just thinking about it again. But I gotta go back to the meaning that I attached on purpose. So the more you guys are aware of this the more you can affect. That’s a big part. There’s number two in personal development. So where have we gone this far? So far we’ve talked about not being bleh. We talked about shifting your state in the circumstance. We talked about shifting the meaning you’re attaching to things. Alright so here’s a couple of things. Yes, we’ve been going for 40 minutes, but I still got another hour and a half drive, so we’re going to keep on talking. It’s like on Wedding Singer, which is one of my favorite movies of all time, do you remember when he’s all depressed after his girlfriend gets married on him and he’s hosting the wedding party and he’s telling all these jokes? And the one guy’s like, “Hey wedding singer, you’re the worst wedding singer I’ve ever heard.” And he looks at him and he’s like, “Well I have the microphone so you will listen to every word I have to say.” One of my favorite lines ever. That’s how I feel right now. I have the microphone so you will listen to every word I have to say. I guess you can turn me off, hopefully you won’t. Hopefully you can hear me. This is car is so loud when we’re driving. I hope this is coming through because I think there’s some good stuff in here for people. Alright, next thing. We talked about being not bleh, we talked about getting in state, we talked about meaning, these are pieces to help you function better as a human being. I always tell people how much of an impact Tony Robbins had on me. It’s because he made me aware of these things and there’s so many more. I wish we could go to UPW. Go walk on fire. I think you can get a ticket for $500 to a thousand bucks. If you are broke and don’t have the money, go get a credit card and finance it. If you’re broke, you’re going to become more broke. Who freaking cares? At this point, what’s the worst that could happen? You’re going to go bankrupt? Dude, you’re broke, it doesn’t matter. It always blows my mind when people are like, “I don’t have any money, I can’t invest.” Then you have nothing to lose. Go take out a loan. Go take out five loans, who cares? Worst case scenario is you lose it all. If you have nothing, then you have nothing. I taught the cub scouts, the 12 year olds, I did an entrepreneurship merit badge and one of the guys asked, “how old do you think these kids should start?” I was like, “They should start now. I got a dozen friends who are teenagers who are making insane amounts of money.” The guy who asked said, “Just so all you kids know, you have nothing. If you lose it all you didn’t lose anything, so who cares?” Anyway, it always makes me laugh because people are like, “you can risk a lot because you have money to risk.” I’m like, “Dude, it’s way easier to risk when you’re broke.” Worst case scenario you lose everything, but everything is like rent on an apartment, but that’s not that big of a deal, you guys. When you’ve got 150 employees whose lives depend on you, I promise you it is a lot scarier to risk at that point. Nevertheless, I digress. Where was I going? I don’t even remember. Hopefully there was something in there of value. Okay, what I want to talk about here is you gotta risk. You’re creating this thing, you’re giving birth, you’re going into this thing…..Oh I remember what I was talking about. I was talking about investing in UPW and talking about being broke. Yeah, go to UPW, go to Date with Destiny. Invest in these events because it’ll transform you, it’ll help you to become super aware of yourself and other people. That’s what Tony gave me that was so important to me. Most of us live life on autopilot and we’re just going through the day bumping into things and things are happening and you’re just not aware of how we work. When you’re aware of how you work, it’s like now you can affect things, change things, tweak things. I can change my approach, I can change other people’s approach. For me it’s been huge to understand me and people better. So yeah, go to those things it’s worth it. There you go. I have a friend down in Australia, his name’s Mal Every, I don’t know why this just popped in my head but he says, “I don’t have a problem with you if you’re broke, but I do have a problem if you stay broke. There’s too many opportunities in this world. If you stay broke, it’s because you’re not trying.” You’re literally not trying. Anyway, I don’t know why I said that, but it popped in my head therefore it must have been important. Alright, the next thing I want to talk about. If you want to be successful in life the next piece outside of not being bleh, and figuring out state control and attaching meaning to the right things, the next thing is you have to stop dabbling.  Stop freaking dabbling. School has screwed up all of us. School has taught us how to dabble. You sign up for college, you take 20 credits, 20 cool things that you want to learn about. What they do is they spoon feed you and force you to dabble over a semester. So they give you a little bit of information in math, you spend 50 minutes. Then you go to the next class, here’s a little bit of science, a little bit of history. So you dabble in a whole bunch of little crap and you try to remain and retain all this stuff and then you go back the next day and you dabble a whole bunch and you dabble and you dabble and you dabble for like 15 years of our life. Let there be no mistake. You will never be hyper successful if you are dabbling. Dabbling is the opposite of what you need to do if you want to be successful. If you want to be successful in something, you have to go deep, you have to immerse, you have to be obsessed with that thing. I guarantee you the people I’m competing against right now in our business, the reason why we are kicking the crap out of all of them is because they are dabblers. I promise you, there’s not one of my competitors that spent as much time in the last 48 hours, in the last week, in the last 5 weeks studying marketing and business and growth and personal development as much as I have. And for most of them, we’re already way past them, so why in the world, why are they not…..? I don’t know. But they’re dabbling and that’s why I’m able to pass them. When you start immersing and you go deep, a couple of really cool things happen. First off, you will start seeing connections that you cannot see when you dabble. I sucked in school because I could never see the connections. I spent an hour in history, an hour in math, then an hour in debate, then an hour in logic, I’m trying to figure out how to make the connections. Unless you go deep in something, you can’t do it. The reason why I’ve written two books is not, yes I like writing books, yes I like sharing it. When I write a book, I have to go in such deep immersion that I start seeing these connections that you don’t, you can’t see when you dabble. When I started writing the Expert Secrets book, I was doing a whole bunch of things. Some things consciously, some things subconsciously and as I started focusing on this book and trying to make a really, really good book, it forced me to read and study and geek out and immerse myself in a whole bunch of different things and through that process, I was not dabbling, I was immersing. I don’t know if it’s God, if it’s your brain, but when you immerse yourself, I feel like the reward for that, all these connections that you don’t normally see, all the sudden start being open to you. Howard Berg told me, he’s the world’s fastest reader. He said when he goes to do a topic, most people read a book and they form their opinion based one book they read. He’ll read 30-40 books to get a really clear view of the reality of the situation. This is what 30 authors have said and you get a very clear view of it. And that’s how I feel about immersion. When you immerse yourself and you go and listen, study, read, you really geek out and become obsessed in your thing. I don’t know if it’s your brain, God or the universe, whatever you want to attribute it to, I know who I want to attribute it to. But he opens up pathways, he opens up connections for you and lets you see a whole picture and that’s your reward for immersion. So that’s the next step in this you guys, you have to stop dabbling. So first off, the first phase in this comes back to you being greedy. The first phase is figure out this thing you want to be obsessed with. Maybe it’s not the marketing yet, and that’s okay. Because phase one is about being greedy and mastering it for yourself and becoming who you need to be to serve the world that you’re trying to serve. So go and now is the time to become unbalanced. In the bible, well if you listen to this song, I think it was…who was it? A time for every season, there’s a time under heaven for everything. A time and a season for everything, right. This is your season to immerse in your craft and become the best in the freaking world in your craft. Again, there’s a time and a season, this is the time and season right now for you to do that, for you to immerse yourself. So that’s phase number one and that’s going to give you the ability to become who you need to be. And you’re going to become completely unbalanced. Your work life, your social life, your family life is going to become unbalanced during that period of time, but you’re going to be able to immerse yourself, you’re not going to dabble. You’re going to unbalance and become awesome at your thing. And then there will be a transition phase where you’re going through and becoming so passionate about it, where there will be this weird time where all the sudden, I don’t know what it is, you can’t get filled up anymore. For me, I was doing all this marketing for all of our businesses and companies. We were doing the Neuropathy product, the weight loss, the dating, all these different businesses and we’re doing it and there came a point where I stopped getting fulfilled by just doing the business and I didn’t know what it was. I started going through this slump. I didn’t feel the momentum, didn’t feel the progress. I was like, ugh. I didn’t feel it and that transition is because eventually you can’t keep growing in that immersion. Because eventually you’ll see the connections, you’ll see everything, you’ll be going through this immersion and then you will…. I don’t know how to say it, not that you’ll become perfect ever, but you’ll become more perfected in that thing. Where it’s hard to squeeze a lot more oranges to get any juice out of it, to really fill you up. And that’s what I talk about in the Expert Secrets book, that’s where you transition from this growth, to the only way you can keep growing is transition into contribution. And this is where entrepreneurship is born. This is where you realize the only way for me to actually keep sharing this and to keep having that juice is to start contributing and giving back and sharing with other people. And what you find is insane. As soon as you take this path and this gift, this thing you’ve been geeking out on and immersing yourself on and become obsessed with, you start sharing it, that juice starts flowing again. It’s like the next wave and it’s so fulfilling. That’s why I’m doing an hour long podcast instead of focusing on the road and listening. That’s why for me right now, I started listening to, when I start doing personal development and growth and start learning and studying, as I do that I start shaking because this is good. I’m getting juice, but if I could share this with other people I’d be getting ten times what I’m getting now. That’s why I publish so much, that’s why I share so much. It’s because that contribution will fill you up more than the growth will eventually. But first you gotta fill up. Again, you gotta become unbalanced so you can become who you need to be. But after you’ve hit that point, and you’ll know it because you can’t get the same thing out of it, until you start contributing. And that’s logically where you start shifting to contribution. That’s when you start becoming obsessed with the marketing. That’s when you start geeking out there. That’s the key you guys, that’s what it’s like. At that point, you don’t care about the money. This is what I talked about a few podcasts ago. The people who struggle are the people trying to make money. When you’ve been geeking out on a thing and have filled yourself up and now you’re shifting to contribution, you do not care about money. I could not care less about money at this point in my life. It’s fun, it keeps track, it’s how we know that we’re doing well. It’s such not a driving force, you can ask…..I do not have logins to my bank accounts. I have no idea what’s in there. My accountant, I’m always like “Hey can I buy this?” and he’s like, “Yeah.” And I’m like, “Okay, cool. I have no idea.” My wife, I don’t have access to my bank accounts, personal, business, anything. I do not know what’s in there. I don’t want to know. It means zero to me at this point in my life. The only thing that means anything to me now is contribution. That’s what fires me up. That’s the state you gotta enter business and entrepreneurship in. Those are the people who are successful. The come in like, “This thing that I have, this gift, this thing. I’m so passionate about it, I have to figure out how to share it with other people.” Then guess what’s going to happen? Then it’s going to be easy to become obsessed with the marketing because the marketing is the means for you to get your message out, for you to get your product and your service out. All the sudden it becomes exciting. I think that’s why I struggled in school so much. I would learn and read a book and it didn’t matter to me. If you’re going into marketing and you’re struggling, this marketing, I’m learning this stuff. I learned about squeeze pages, traffic and conversion but you don’t care. It’s because it’s like school. I study a thing and I write a paper but I don’t care about this paper, there’s no point to it. If you’re struggling studying the marketing it’s because there’s no point to it. But as soon as you find your thing and you obsess with it and you’ve grown and filled yourself up and shift to contribution, now when you start studying it, the marketing becomes alive. It lights up and becomes alive again. I remember, I always thought I was dumb. I hated reading, I hated studying, I hated school, I hated all those things and honestly, I thought I was a dumb kid. I started my business and started selling these little things, it was crazy because I was selling some stuff and I was not doing that well. I remember it was pre-podcasts, but everyone used to do tele-seminars back when I got started. I would download all these tele-seminars and I would listen to them. Guys like Arman Morin, Alex Mandossian, those are the guys I listened to. Marlon Sanders, these are the guys I listened to initially. And I would listen to them on my headphones. I would burn these tele-seminars onto cd’s and put the cd’s in and listen to them while I was on my wrestling trips and I would learn stuff. They would say stuff and I’m like, “That’s so cool. I’m going to go try that.” And I’d try it and the craziest thing would happen, I would try something. I was making a little bit of money and then I’d try something and make more money. I was like, are you kidding me, that freaking worked. I gotta try something else. I listened to another tele-seminar and I would try it and are you kidding me, that freaking worked! And then another one and I was like, that guy wrote a book. I’d read his book and I’m like, I’m going to try it. And then guess what happened? I’d make more money.  My thing would go out to more people and I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” And all the sudden reading became alive for me, studying became alive for me, marketing became alive for me. I remember copywriting I was like, one of my first websites I set up and I didn’t have a sales letter and someone’s telling me about this copywriting thing and I was like, are you kidding me? That is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard of. I’m not going to write words, I don’t want to learn that. I remember just being angry because I didn’t want to learn copy. It sounded so boring and stupid. Anyway, I tried to hire a copywriter, and the copywriter, it was actually Michael Thornton was the first copywriter I tried to hire and his quote for me at the time was 8 or 10 grand or something and I was like, “Whoa! I haven’t made that much money in my entire life combined at this point.” So then I tried to read a book on copy and again, it was horrible. I read it and I was like this sucks. I had to write my very first little sales letter. So I wrote it and then it was crazy because it made money. So then I started listening to some copywriters and the guys like, I remember it was Michael Thornton actually, I was listening to this presentation he gave at this big seminar and he was like, “We tested this thing and it turns out that a red headline out converted a blue one.” So I changed my headline to red and sure enough it out converted. I was like, what the crap? Okay, what else does this guy got? I remember he tested a brown background, it did better in this thing. So I’m going to do a brown background. So I did a brown background and sure enough it out converted. I’m like are you kidding me? Then he said to try a new headline, his headline swipe file had all his headlines. So I tried four or five headlines and one of them dramatically beat the other one. I was like, what? I changed the headline and I doubled my income. Normal humans, if they want to double their income, guess what they gotta do? A doctor would have to go back to like 16 more years in medical school to specialize and double their income, work another 15 years and then maybe they would. I changed 13 words on a headline and all the sudden guess what? Copywriting became alive for me. It got exciting and all the sudden I want to read every freaking copywriting book I can find, because I’d read through and most of it was garbage or rehashing stuff but I’d read one sentence that was like, “Oh, you should end each line with a dot, dot, dot. Because it keeps the readers mind open and doesn’t close out the thought and they’re more likely to keep reading.” I was like, what? So now to every single email and every single thing I’ve ever written, I add a dot, dot, dot, you’ve probably noticed that before. Guess what happened? Everything increased. And I started going to marketing seminars. I’d go to a five day seminar and listen for five days and every single speaker who is talking, I knew everything. I’ve done that, knew that, heard that, rehash, rehash and then one speaker on  day 6 would say one thing where he’s like, “Oh yeah, this one time I added an exit pop where I gave a discount and 20% of the people took the exit pop.” I was like, wait, what? So I go back to my thing and add an exit pop and my income would increase by like $100,000 a month. From that one little thing. I remember I was like, I sat through 5 days of crap and got that one thing and it was so huge for me that it made the whole thing worth while. Or I would be at an event, got nothing and I’d go out to eat with everybody and I’m the Mormon dude, everyone goes to the bar and I’m like, I don’t want to go to the bar, I don’t want people to think I’m drinking. So I’d go to the bar, and I’m not joking, I’d order milk because I didn’t want people to think…..if I ordered a sprite people might think I’m drinking and I’m like I don’t want people to think I’m drinking, so I ordered a milk. So I’m holding a milk and I’m at the bar and everyone’s drinking and they’re like, “Why do you got a milk?” I’m like, “Oh, I’m a Mormon, Mormon’s don’t drink so I’m drinking milk.” They’re like, “that’s weird.” And then they’re kind of drunk and the coolest thing about drunk people, drunk people don’t have any filters. They lose the inhibition to filter stuff or whatever. So I’m drinking milk, totally sober, they’re completely drunk and I’m like, “Hey so, what’s the biggest thing you’ve figured out?” and they’re like, “Oh man, okay so we did this thing on our squeeze page where we did blah blah blah.” I’m like, what? He just told me that. I would spend four or five hours in the bar drinking milk, asking people questions and getting nugget, after nugget, after nugget. I’d go back and add it and sure enough I’d add this little thing and it’s like Russell, you gave yourself a three thousand dollar a day raise by doing this one little thing. That’s a million dollar a year raise. How do average humans get a million dollar a year raise? They don’t, they can’t. It’s physically impossible to do that. How did I do it? Some dude at a bar who is drunk off his butt told me this little thing and then I did it. Where do you guys think I got the Perfect Webinar from? I am not a genius, but guess what? I went to all of these events and saw speaker, after speaker, after speaker pitching and maybe what they said sucked, but I heard how they did a close, I heard how they did a trial. That guy said that thing. All of the differences…it’s funny because Stephen’s always like, he always talks about the Russellisms, the things Russell says that are so cool in my presentations. I didn’t make most of those things up, most things I heard another speaker say it and I’m like, that’s amazing, wrote it down and it was worth everything. It would make me laugh, I’d go to an event and I would get one or two little nuggets like that and I’d come back and it would give me a two to three, maybe four thousand dollar a year raise and I hear someone online complain, “It was a pitch fest. All they do is sales stuff.” I’m like, “You went to that event to try to learn how to sell things. Why do you hate money so bad? I saw the same thing you did. I gave myself a four thousand dollar a day raise.” I don’t know what else to do. It’s because they haven’t figured it out yet. It’s like they’re going to school and they’re pissed because the professor bored them to death. It’s like, when you go with this different lens, when you’ve got something you are so insanely passionate about, that all you care about, you don’t care about making money, spending money. All you care about is figuring out how you can get this to more people and when you get one little nugget after five days of information and that one thing does this huge thing, that’s worth it. I hear people complain, they go to forums, “That event sucked, it was a pitch fest. I heard that stuff before, they didn’t teach me anything new.” It’s because they’re not real entrepreneurs. They haven’t fall in love with the marketing of the thing. If you’ve fallen in love, this is how you know you’ve fallen in love with the marketing of your thing, it’s when you literally stop watching TV for the shows and you watch for the commercials. That’s how you know. It’s when you’re listening to the radio and you’re waiting for the songs to end so you can hopefully hear a really good direct response radio ad. It’s when you’re scrolling through your Facebook feed looking for ads. It’s when you’re like weird crap that you know you don’t care about, but you’re praying that they will start re-targeting you with their ads. It’s when you log into your wife’s Facebook account, not because you give a crap about what she’s doing, or care what she’s talking about, but you know that she is seeing different ads than you are and you want to see what those ads look like. That’s when you know that you’re passionate about marketing. That’s when you know that you’re so obsessed with getting your message out that it’s become, that’s the level you gotta be at. But I think I’ve come to grips now, I think it used to piss me off when people weren’t obsessed about marketing, but now I think I get it. It’s like, I don’t think you can be obsessed about marketing at first, until you have first gone through the growth phase for yourself. You’ve got to become ridiculously obsessed initially with your thing, because that’s the first phase. You’ve got to immerse yourself there and after you’ve done that, then when you start shifting the entrepreneurship side, the growth, to the contribution and sharing it. That’s when you will become obsessed with the marketing. That’s when copywriting became alive for me. That’s when split testing became alive. That’s when all the geeky crap that I shouldn’t care about, none of us should care about, that’s when I started caring about it, that’s when it became alive. Does that make sense you guys? That’s when I can sit there for five days and watch sales pitch after sales pitch after sales pitch and hear a single word about what they said, but just watch their hands, their hand motions, how they’re anchoring the stage, what they’re pointing to, why, when and how and be excited. One of my buddies, Darin Stevens, he literally went to a Tony Robbins event, he went to the entire thing. I can’t remember if he told me if he watched the recordings of it or if he did when he was there, but he watched an entire week long Tony Robbins event with no audio on. No audio. Why would somebody do that? Because Darin wants to be the best person in the world at controlling the stage. Understanding how your physiology and stage presence and how you’re anchoring the stage, what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, how you’re doing it, why it works. What did he do? He took the best person in the world, Tony Robbins, and he watched him and took out all of the audio because the audio distracts you from he’s actually doing. I can’t tell you guys this enough. Funnel hacking is not just about looking at the outside, it’s about really understanding what people are doing and why they’re doing it. Yes, I’m selling products and services to you guys, but at the same time watch how I’m doing it. So Darin went and watched Tony Robbins because he wanted to see Tony’s hand motions, what he’s doing, why he’s doing it, how he’s doing it, and he wrote this huge write-up for me, he sent me, it’s insane. It’s about all the stuff that Tony is doing, the reason why Tony’s pounding his chest at times, why he’s going like this, why he’s doing the ‘whoa, yes!’, why he’s pointing to different directions while he’s anchoring and seating and all those things are not accidental. They’re real and they’re purposely done. When I’m on stage and talking about stuff, when I’m walking on different parts of the stage, sometimes its accidental. But for the most part, I’m doing things on purpose. I’m anchoring the stage, I’m taking you on timelines, I’m trying to bring you back to different places so you get emotionally impacted based on things that are happening. Same things happening in a webinar, tele-seminar, not podcasts because I’m just driving and talking, but maybe I am, who knows. But I want you guys to understand, all of these things are there for you. I spent 14 hours yesterday, 14 hours going through every email I have ever sent with swipe files, squeeze pages, templates. I found every template I ever had paid for, designed because every template I designed I went and had all these people, the examples, a decade of funnel hacking. I went through yesterday and archived all of it into trello boards based on page type, based on funnel type, based on all sorts of stuff. And I’ll probably never use those pages again, but I wanted to be able see them and categorize and be like, the reason why that page was awesome was because of this. There’s actually this one little block, there’s a dude that figured it out, on these squeeze pages, I’m not going to ruin the surprise for you, but if you type in squeeze page warning, those who are in the know will know that there’s this dude who had a squeeze page and at the very top he had this warning block that says, “Warning: Blah, blah, blah” That increased conversions on squeeze pages by insane amounts and most people never knew about it. Then  he mentioned it, I think he’s in the dating market, he mentioned it at a mastermind and then dozens and dozens of people have done it, but most people have never seen it before. If you were to do it on your pages right now, it’s insane. I totally forgot about it until I’m looking at my swipe files right now and I’m like, oh yeah. There’s so many things. I think so many people get bogged down in this other stuff that they forget about that. Become obsessed with the marketing. Go through all this stuff and legitimately do and it’s going to make it so much fun, it’s going to make it alive for you guys and I want to give you that gift. But that’s the transition. So anyway you guys, this has been a long one. I hope you got a lot out of it. I just want you guys, I know that you have something inside of you. I know that you have the ability to change people’s lives. I believe that, probably more so than you do at this period in your life. If I didn’t believe that I would not be doing this stuff. I make plenty of money running a software company.  I don’t have to do all this stuff. I don’t have to talk or write books, but I’m in a spot in my life now where my contribution is to get you off your butt so you contribute as well. I am trying my best to touch as many people’s lives as possible through the things that I do, but I just know that the clearest path for me to have impact on the world is to touch you as an entrepreneur because you have the ability to affect more people. You may not, some of you guys know this. Some of you guys know that we have people that literally have hundreds and thousands, if not millions of people a year that they are touching and affecting. If I could magnify what you’re doing just a little bit, it amplifies that. If I can show you something that gets you to convert more people and gives you more money so you can actually serve people at a higher level, that’s huge. And some of you guys are at the beginning of this journey now and you’re like, “I don’t have anything Russell. I’m not that passionate yet. Or I don’t have a voice, I’m nervous, I’m awkward.” Whatever, I promise you, I wish I would have been podcasting and blogging 12, 13, 14 years when I got started. The Russell you see today was the most awkward, nervous, weird person on planet earth 14 years ago. I couldn’t carry on a conversation with a human being, let alone with a camera for an hour and 8 minutes now. That comes with a lot of practice. It’s kind of what we talked about at the beginning. Unbalancing your life and becoming obsessed with something. I don’t care what that is for you. But you need to do it, find something that fires you up. Right now if you’re not that passionate about anything, that’s okay. Find something that gives you a little spark, because initially it’s a spark. I wasn’t that passionate about marketing at first, but there was a spark. Once you have a spark it’s like, okay now let’s throw some kindling on the fire. There’s a spark of something, go find other people who are obsessed. You have a lower vibration right now, they have a higher vibration, we talked about this earlier. Go find people who are obsessed and get around them. Listen to their podcast, read their book, if they have an event, finance your house if you have to, finance that event and plug into their vibrations so they will bring you to the excitement level that they are at. I am trying to do that every day with my marketing, if you have not noticed. Most of you guys, when you came into this world, you did not know about marketing, you didn’t care about marketing. You didn’t care about funnels, that was not, you didn’t get into this world saying, I’m going to build funnels. You either had a spark saying I want to make money, or you had a spark saying I want to share something. You had a spark and for some reason you bumped into me because I’m so loud and obnoxious and annoying and everywhere. You probably saw a YouTube video and you’re like, “Stop targeting me on YouTube, Russell.” But I’m trying to take your spark and ignite it. I’m trying to give you as much waves of excitement and passion and vibration as I can muster up, so that your vibration will rise to my level. So for you, where do you have a spark? Find that spark and then find the people around you in that market who are on fire and plug into them. Give them any amount of money that they need. I’m serious about this. If you’re broke it does not matter, you’re going to be more broke. I don’t know how to get that, I was at Grant Cardone’s event, I think there were like 2500 people in this long room and you were seated based on how much money you spent. People in the front spent 15 grand to be there and in the back they spent like 500 bucks. The further back you got, the less money you spent. What’s crazy to me, is when I pitched my product, the people in the front ran to the side of the room and bought. And the further back you went, the less and less people ran to the back. You may say, “Russell, it’s because the people in the back didn’t have as much money, therefore they did not run to the side.” I would argue with you that you are wrong. The people in the front have money because they have invested money. They’re used to spending money in investing and then they have more success. The people in the back are broke because they’ve never invested in themselves. That’s it. That’s honestly it. They’re already broke. Grant Cardone said this to me backstage, he’s like, “Don’t the people in the back understand, if you’re already broke it doesn’t hurt you to be more broke.” It doesn’t. I don’t know if that’s financially irresponsible. But I did a whole podcast on this called entrepreneurial scars, our founding fathers who I believe were inspired from God, who created the constitution of the United States, they gave us this thing. Because in this country we needed to give the entrepreneurs the ability to risk everything and be okay with that. If entrepreneurs didn’t have that ability, this country would have stagnated and died. I am a huge believer in that. Capitalism 101. If entrepreneurs don’t have the ability to risk everything, everything stops growing. But if entrepreneurs have an out, then guess what? They can risk everything. So it’s scary at first, but I promise you it’s a lot less scary to risk everything now, then it is when you have a whole bunch of stuff. So now is the time for you guys to risk everything because you don’t have that much. I don’t want to be a jerk, but it’s true. Now is the time to risk things. It gets harder and scarier when you have people and money and all these kind of things. I always tell people, for you, you have to figure out what is the worst case scenario if you fail? It gets people to look at that thing straight in the eyes and say, I’m okay with that. That is the key to be able to risk stuff. Because a lot of times there’s this fear of, the worst case scenario, something bad is going to happen and they can’t be successful. You gotta stop and write down for you right now, if you were to fail, if you were to go and get a bunch of credit cards and blow it on mastering your craft and getting around the best people in the world and raising your vibration, everything, what’s the worst case scenario. The worst case scenario, you go bankrupt. You go bankrupt, what happens? You can’t get a credit card for like a day or two maybe. You can’t get a home loan. Okay, well you’re going to have to rent. Can you rent? I don’t know, hopefully. There’s programs, the country….I know I’ve rented to people who, there are things. Anyway, maybe it’s financially responsible. I’m not a financial planner, don’t listen to me. I’m just saying that if I was in that same situation and I was starting all over again, I wouldn’t worry about that. I would not worry about that. I have built and lost everything twice now, and guess what? It was alright. It’s okay, but the biggest thing is if you don’t build something, you don’t try something, if you don’t go deep on something, then you’ll never know, you’ll never know. Anyway, make sure you clear it with your spouse first to get their buy in, I’m just saying. Those people in the back of the room at Grant Cardone, if they had run to the back and invested I think it was $2,000, that’s not that much. If they would have invested $2,000 they would have gotten the exact same thing that Brandon and Kaelin got. Those of you who listen to the podcast, you’ve heard me talk about them. Brandon and Kaelin were down to their last money. The network marketing company they were in ended up kind of falling apart, they stepped away from it. They had zero dollars left in their account. They had a credit card and a couple of other things and they saw my pitch for funnel hacks, it was $1,000. They watched it and they were like, “We have to buy it, we have to buy it. We don’t have a thousand bucks.” They were freaking out and finally decided, “We’re going to buy it.” I wish they were on here right now to tell this story because it’s awesome. So they said they were going to buy it and then Brandon was going to buy it, and going to buy it and then he wussed out. He’s like, “I’m not going to do it.” So he didn’t buy it. Instead he went to Clickfunnels.com and paid $100 for Clickfunnels. He went back to Kaelin and said, “I didn’t do it. I just bought the $100 thing.” And she’s like, “We said we were going to buy it.” And he’s like, “I know. We don’t have any money.” And she’s like, “It doesn’t matter. We don’t have any money anyway. Who cares if we buy something with it. We don’t have any money.” Zero and negative $1000 is pretty much the same thing. It’s not changing the quality of your life. So they went back and ended up buying the $1000 thing and she was pissed because now they were $1100 in debt as opposed to $100 and then guess what they did? They had something they were really passionate about. She had lost, I don’t know, 60 pounds. She was in weight, she was already passionate about something, she’d already gone through the growth. She had already filled that. Now she was transitioning, they were transitioning to need to share this with other people. So what did they do? They did similar to what I did. For them, they did it a little different, this is what I recommend for you guys though. They bought the Funnel Hacks training and then they watched video number one. They started watching it and as soon as they got into it, they paused it and they did that thing. They pushed play again, they started doing, they did that thing. They implemented what I said. Paused it. Did that thing. Pushed play, pause, play, pause. And for two or three months or weeks, I can’t remember how long it was. That’s all they did. They put it all in place and when it was done, they launched their business. They’re initial launch, I think it was Thanksgiving or Christmas, they were driving to their families and they told me that they had enough gas money to get there, but no gas money to get back. So they filled the gas in their car, started driving, they got down to their families house, they were staying in a room and they started going through it and they launched this thing and luckily for them they rolled it out and made $20,000, that paid for gas money to get back. And then they started geeking out, started plugging in, they started doing what I did. Again, I didn’t want to learn copywriting, but when I found out you change a headline you change 13 words and you give yourself a thousand dollar a day raise, it suddenly becomes really interesting. So they plugged in the podcast and I watched these guys over the next year, over the next two years and it was crazy. I would do something, I remember I did a podcast where I was on a webinar with Jason Flatlien, who is one of the best webinar performers on this planet, at the end of the webinar Jason did this weird thing for 90 minutes. I was so pissed at him because I thought he was going to kill webinar sales. Turns out he doubled our webinar sales, on the drive home I was doing the podcast and I’m like, “Holy crap! Flatlien pulled this thing out of his butt. He did this thing, I never even heard of it, doubled, literally 2x’d our sales.” The podcast went live the next day. Brandon and Kaelin listened to the podcast, they said, “Freaking Russell Brunson.” Which is the same thing I used to say when I’d be like, “Freaking Dan Kennedy. Freaking Michael Thornton. Freaking John Carl.” All the guys I studied. They’d some little nugget and I’d try it. So they said that, they went back and added the same thing to the end of their webinar and they messaged me back, they said, “Freaking Russell Brunson. We did it to our webinar. Doubled sales.” I was like are you kidding me? And every single thing, they listened to my podcast and they’d tell me every time I’d say something, they’d take it and try it and Brandon said, “We’re like a week behind you on your implementation. You do it, we implement it a week later and we’re doing it, and doing it.” And I want you guys to understand, that’s when this game becomes fun. It’s when you realize that man, listening to Russell rant about this stupid thing, if I add this one little piece, all the sudden I go from helping 100 people a day to 120 people a day, that’s pretty cool. My bank account goes from $1200 a day to $1300 a day. You gave yourself a $100 raise today, are you kidding me? People don’t do that. We used to have a big mantra in our old office, we’d always say, we’d come in and be like, “How can we give ourselves a raise today? How can we give ourselves a raise today?” And it was like looking for that gold nugget. Looking for that little thing. Looking for that headline, split test, that tweak that I did, that little nugget. What could we do that’d different? That’s how the 108 split tests book was born. I was able to do a lot more split testing before Todd Dickerson, my partner in crime in CLickfunnels, we used to build the best sales funnel we could, we’d get it out there live, pre-clickfunnels, it was a pain in the butt. We’d build the whole thing out, and get it live. Todd would login, he’d use visual website optimizer, it was our split test tool at the time, he’d split up like a thousand different tests and try to beat my control. And he always did, pretty much every time. And that was the goal, I made the best version we can, Todd let’s see if you can beat it? And he would test, test, test, test and he beat it, beat it, beat it again, beat it again. And it was like every day, how do we give ourselves a raise today? That was the game we played and that’s how the 108 split tests book was born. That’s how half of what I know about funnels was born at that time. We were just testing every funnel variation idea, planning pages, template, idea, everything we could we dream of for a 2 ½ 3 year period of time, it’s how I became who I am today. It’s how I became the dude who probably knows more about funnels than any human being on earth because I hacked more funnels, tested more funnels, we did more than anybody. And during that time of growth, that was the growth time for us, we were doing it on 12 companies we owned. We were doing it for a whole bunch of other people, which by the way, that’s a story for another podcast, don’t do 12 companies at once. But that’s what we were doing, that’s how we mastered this craft. That’s how I know more about funnel psychology, I believe, than anyone on earth. Because I did it. I did more of it. We tested so many thing. I was like, holy crap. I thought for sure this would have won. But this won, and this didn’t win. This helped on page one, but it made page three conversion go down. I got my gift because of the insane amounts of work that Todd and I did during that time. Todd and I and my entire team, by the way. We didn’t have it nice like you guys have now days. I went on a little rant to someone on my team the other day, we get people now to come to Clickfunnels who first off, they don’t use Clickfunnels the way it’s made. So those of you guys who are having bugs, I want you to hear this. Because if you have bugs, it’s because you’re trying to do crap that Clickfunnels is not made to do. You’re hacking things and you’re doing stuff. If you use Clickfunnels the way it works, there’s not bugs. I don’t have bugs in my funnels. I don’t know why everyone’s got these bugs. It’s because you’re trying to do things that you think are going to be better and they’re not. It’s because you’ve been listening to the Confusion Soft guru’s explaining why you need 55,000 different variations of funnels. If you just learn how to sell, all that crap would go away. Every time people say, “There’s all these bugs in Clickfunnels.” I’m like, “I’m not seeing them man, because I build funnels on it every single freaking day and I’m not seeing the bugs.” There are little things here and there and we fix them as they pop up. But for the most part, you are creating bugs by trying to do stuff that does not matter. So that’s number one. Number two, you’re paying between $100-300 a month for the software. We had a really, really bad competitor come out, which we’ve had I’d say probably at least 30-40 Clickfunnels killers who have come out in the last 3 years since we launched Clickfunnels. They all come and go and they all try to undercut us in pricing. I always get all these people like, “So and so cut you out.” And maybe someday we’ll have a big competitor, I mean who knows. I’m excited for that day, I actually enjoy competition. Some of you may probably have noticed. I got no problems with that. When I was wrestling, all I tried to do was fly around the country to find the best in the world so I could learn to beat them so I’m game. Anyone wants to step up legitimately, please do. But please don’t come in here disguised like, “We’re going to beat them by undercutting their price” Everyone’s coming out like, “You’re losing all your customers because they’re undercutting your price.” I’m like, “Are you kidding me? The people who complain about spending $100 a month to run their entire company, I don’t want them as customers.” In fact, we’re honestly thinking about doubling or tripling our prices just to show, to give the virtual finger to everyone who’s trying to undercut us. We don’t want those customers. You can go there. If you can’t spend $100 to run your company, you should not be running a business at this point and time. Honestly, that’s how I feel. I want to walk you through a walk down memory lane at how we used to build funnels because this is the reality of how it used to work. We would have an idea, I would then have to go funnel hack dozens of people to see what would be the best thing, so I’d probably spend 2 or 3 thousand dollars funnel hacking a bunch of people’s things. Because I didn’t have a way to mock up templates. So I’d funnel hack and take tons of screen shots of all these templates of all these different pages and then I’d have to go to one of my designers, I had a bunch through the years. I’d show them, “This is the process I think would be best. I think I want a landing page here, and this, this, this. I want this from this guys funnel. I like this over from this one. I want this from here.” So I’d map out the funnel process I wanted to test. But I want this guys design but this over here…..it was a nightmare. So our designers would go and try to create a page but I’d be like, “No, but this and that…” and it would literally be 6-8 weeks of us going back and forth just getting the design and the funnel structure right. They’d have to hand code everything. So we’d get all this done. Then we’d have to go and after we got all the pages done, so it looked good, we’d go back to our developers and say, “okay, here are all the pages, here’s the order forms, here’s everything. Now you gotta actually make this work.” So they’d have to go and custom and go into PHP and coding and sequel database to build up so the order form would actually work. We actually went to a database, they’d have to set up the security certificates, they’d have to set up all the API’s to go to the 20 or 30 different things that we would need. And it would take the developers on average, probably another 30 days to hook up all of those things. So my cost just in salaries at that point and time were probably at $15, maybe $20 grand in salaries just to get all these things done to that point. Then we still had to write the copy, which eventually I started liking copy, so I did a lot more of that myself. But prior, I started having a lot of copywriters. I would spend on average between 10-15 grand for every sales letter we would write. Whether it was somebody else, or it would be my own time, which would take me probably 6 weeks or so to write all the copy for a funnel. We would then plug all those things in, and we’d be 3 months, conservatively 3 months and usually a little more than that, and conservatively about $30 grand per funnel in. Before we could test it. Before we could test it. So for you guys to be like, “That’s $100 and I could only build 30 funnels. I still have to get an SMTP mailer to send my emails out.” I have no empathy for that. None, zero. I want you to leave us and go to the competitors. Please, for the love. Leave us, go for the $37 option. I want you to be their nightmare clients, I do not want you to be using Clickfunnels. I don’t have any empathy. Zero. Not one iota of empathy for you if you cannot pay $100 or even $300…..if you cannot pay $300 to run your company, you are not an entrepreneur, you should leave this business. Honestly, you should just stay as an artist and go to the beach and do your thing and have a hat out there to get tips. That is your level of being an entrepreneur. I don’t know what else to tell you. Please leave. You can go, you have my permission. I don’t not want or need your money. But if you were trying to freaking change the world and sell stuff and make a business, that’s what we’ve given you. If you wanted super insane, complex stuff, you may have outgrown Clickfunnels. That’s fine, if you’ve outgrown Clickfunnels, go hire people to custom code stuff, I’m okay with that. You’re going to be like, “Oh your software’s buggy.” It’s like you’re trying to customize crap that your should be spending 20 or 30 grand on, like we used to. You can do that. Go for it. You have my permission to leave. I do not need your $297 that bad. I promise you that. The headaches that go to some people who are trying to, who are complaining to me about the bug they find when they try to add the 47th upsell on the 13th email sequence if somebody clicks yes versus no, twice instead of once. That’s not what we’re made to do. And the reason why, after freaking testing a million things when you go back and do it the way I had to do it, those three months and that $30 grand was for the initial test. Then Todd would have to go split test a whole bunch of things and then guess what we found out? Half the time we’d get the pages to convert but the funnel wasn’t profitable. So then we’d have to come back and say okay, this entire funnel didn’t work so we have to rebuild the upsell, downsell sequence. I had to go back to the drawing board and it’s not me spending 15 minutes in Clickfunnels, cloning the page and doing a split test. No. It was me hiring another copywriter to write a new version of the video sales letter. It was me figuring out new layouts and designs and functionality and trying to re-custom freaking code all that crap from the ground up, then we’d have to go re-build the entire funnel, then re-launch it, drive new traffic. If the funnel didn’t work we’re into another $10-15 grand in for the second test. “Oh my. $300 costs so much. I can only do 400 split tests at once.” I’ve got no mercy for you okay. Sorry for the rant, but this freaking important. Alright, so the reason why my funnels are simple, and I want you guys to understand this, is because your funnels need to be simple. I learned this from having to custom code stuff. If I made these complex freaking funnels that everyone thinks are so cool now days, because of Confusion Soft and others, they draw these little diagrams and they try to impress their clients by how complex their funnels can be, that’s not going to serve you at all. I want you to understand this, that will not serve you. It will screw you up and you’ll be finding bugs in Clickfunnels because it’s not build to do what you’re trying to do. With the design hack-a-thon happening next week, we are building out 30 types of funnels. These are the funnel structures you should use. You should work to plug the crap you are selling into these funnel structures, not the other way around. You should not try to say, “oh I got this good idea, I’m going to do 14 upsells and then I’m going to have a mini survey on upsell number two and then I’ll sell them this.” No, just plug the crap you have into the existing stuff. The tiny potential maybe incremental sales you could get by tweaking this thing, is not worth….I promise you that if you put the same effort and same time and money and energy into hiring a better copywriter or mastering….there’s a dude who I pay $100 to write each headline for me. When we have an offer I’ll give him a thousand bucks and say, “Write me ten headlines.” That’s a better investment of your time than trying to have 16 different upsells. Because having a different headline can change your conversion. That will do more for you than the complexity that you’re trying to do. My rant is over. I think it’s over. Should it be over? I just want you guys to understand that. Clickfunnels is built for customers like me, who want to get a message out quickly. They want to take the best proven practices, and they want to focus on the stuff they can control. If you want a cheaper option because you feel like $100 is too much to invest in the entire background and infrastructure of your business, you have my permission to go. I hope you enjoy it. And when your business makes enough money that you can switch, we will gladly welcome you back. Or you can do what the wise man did and built his foundation on a rock. I don’t know if you guys remember that song from Sunday school but the wise man built his house upon the rock, and the foolish man built his house upon the sand. And when the rains came tumbling down, the rains came down and the floods came up, the rains came down and the floods came up, the rains came down and the floods came up and the man on the sand washed. And the man on the rocks stood still. This is primary songs 101, guys. So if you want to build your house upon the sand, go the cheap option you should. You definitely should. And if and when you want to get super complex, if there’s reasons and cases, Clickfunnels wasn’t built for, don’t feel bad you guys. I’m okay with that. You can outgrow us. Clickfunnels is a company that’s built for businesses in this certain range and I understand that and I respect that. That’s who we want to serve. If we try to serve everybody, we will not succeed either. So a lot of times if you guys come to us and you’re like, “Oh, this is a bug, this is a bug.” A lot of times we’ll hear that and say, “It’s not a bug. It’s the limitation that we have put on our software because that’s not something that we want our users doing.” Because if we open that to everybody then it adds a whole other level of complexity. Clickfunnels is already complex, I don’t want to add more complexity. I want to make more simplicity. I honestly, if I wouldn’t have uproarings and riots in the streets right now, I would take away some of our features. I would pull things out, I would simplify a lot of stuff. And you will notice over the next year or so, we have a bunch of new UI people and new teams coming in and our goal is simplification. Trying to make things more simple and easier, not more complex. Like, “Russell, what’s the newest feature coming to Clickfunnels?”  There are some cool new things coming out, but at the same time a lot of its simplification. At Funnel Hacking Live we opened up Actionetics and someone messaged me the other day, “you had this cool feature in Actionetics, it was the best thing you have and then you guys pulled it away two weeks later. Why did you guys do that?” I’m like, “Two reasons, number one: What people were doing was making smart lists that have literally 800 different things in there. I understand you guys want to be segmented, but I promise you that level of segmentation, it hurts you more than it will ever help you. And number two: It destroys our database. It’s not good. If you want that kind of complexity, please go and build that on your own. But this is for, Clickfunnels is built for entrepreneurs to move quickly.” The opportunity, you being able to launch two funnels instead of one is the difference. That’s the goal of it. I’ve been going for a long time you guys. I don’t even know where I’m at. I hope I haven’t passed where I’m going. Anyway, I hope you guys enjoyed this podcast, it’s been a lot of fun. I hope you guys actually listened to the whole thing. There were a lot of really, really cool stuff that I really wanted to share with you guys in here. I hope you got a lot of value out of it. To recap, don’t be a bleh, build your empire, become unbalanced and focus on becoming who you need to be, and then after you’ve done that and you’re ready to transition to contribution then shift your balance and be obsessed with the marketing of it, have fun with it. This game is fun you guys. Every day I wake up and I’m like, I can’t believe I get to do this. I can’t believe I had a two hour drive today and I can’t believe I get to hang out with you guys and share and talk and based on my stats, between YouTube and our podcasts, we’ll have between 15 and 20,000 people who will listen to this whole entire thing. It’s crazy. 20,000 people and if each of you got one little nugget out of that thing and I gave 20,000 of you guys the ability to affect an extra 10 people, that’s 200,000 people that we affected. And if you’re able to get an extra 100 people, that’s 2 million people I was able to affect. If you get an extra thousand that’s 20 million people. It’s insane the ripple effect.  I hope that I didn’t waste any of your time and you guys got something, one or two or three little nuggets. But look at these things that way. Go into this, go into everything, go into your study time, go into your podcast, I’m putting out a lot of content and I’m hopefully making it entertaining and fun for you guys, but you’re always looking for that one little thing, “oh, that’s how Russell….” I had probably a dozen people message me when they saw how I do my….One of the Funnel Hacker TV episodes I had my Expert Secrets board and I finished the Expert Secrets book and I closed the board and they saw that. That’s how you manage your projects. Now I see how you get so much stuff done. Everything’s compartmentalized. You have your teams, different projects, and trello’s the way you do it. That little thing was huge for people. One little nugget, and you never know where they’re going to be picked up. You never know when gold’s going to be dropped and you can grab it. So plug in, immerse yourself in this stuff you guys. My goal is to get your vibration up to mine so you can be as passionate as I am, because if you are, that’s how you’re going to change the world. That’s how I’m going to change the world. I can’t do it without you. So I need you guys there. So step in, plug in, have fun, enjoy the process, simplify your funnels, and build your company upon a rock. With that said you guys, I appreciate you all and I will see you guys soon. Bye everybody.

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  • 00:47:02

    Lizzie & John

    · Waiting for Babies

    With a long family history of infertility on both sides, Lizzie & John were worried conceiving the first time would be hard, but they had good luck the first month they tried and their son Luke was born after an uncomplicated pregnancy.  3 years later, and ready to have another, what they thought would be smooth sailing turned into all the things they were worried about the first time. Welcome to Secondary Infertility... The Art of Waiting: On Fertility, Medicine and Motherhood by Belle Boggs as discussed by Lizzie can be found wherever books are sold. Useful links with more information on Endometriosis can be found here:American College of Obstetricians and GynecologistsThe Endometriosis FoundationWikipedia for EndometriosisTranscript So far through the show we've had good discussions about miscarriage ectopic pregnancies azoospermia, genetic issues, and the havoc infertility can wreak on a marriage. Some experience infertility through basically just never being able to get pregnant. Others find getting pregnant to be easy but actually bringing the pregnancy to term and having an actual baby in the arms the possible part. This is waiting for babies. I'm Steven Mavros. And today I want to bring you a story about what it's like when you start off not infertile. Here's an example. You're a couple you get married when you think it might be a good time to have a child with a goalie or any other euphemism you want for stopping the use of contraception. And it just happens. You get pregnant. You have a normal pregnancy you give birth have a healthy child. You treasure and enjoy what it's like to be a parent even though the concept of eight hours of sleep seems like a forgotten dream a year or two or three later you decide you want to give your child the Sibyl and grow your family. So you do the same thing you did last time you play the goalie and. Nothing happened. You try some more. And still nothing happens. You think wait I've done this before. What's different. This is what's known as secondary and for two and for some it can be just as devastating as what those who've never once been pregnant go through. Today's story comes from Lizzie and John Rothwell who are in their early 30s when they first thought about having a child. One of the first questions I always ask when interviewing someone is whether they always knew they wanted to have kids but I've never gotten this response. I felt like. My whole life since I was in adolescence I have been making monthly payments on a very expensive power drill. That I would be really upset if I never got to use it. So there is a biological drive to have children in addition to wanting a family. Yeah I have no analogies I just knew I wanted kids. It was easy. Now Lizzie's down payments for her power drill seemingly paid off and they conceived very quickly. Now I say quickly but it wasn't easy. Right before they started trying Lizzie was struggling with something that at first appeared to have nothing to do with fertility. Basically from May of 2012 until I got pregnant with Luke in October of that year I was in constant abdominal pain. And I've gone to see a gastro intestinal doctor once in Philadelphia and we sort of ruled out like scary stuff like Crohn's disease and stuff but we hadn't gotten any further. And then I got pregnant and that all went away. I felt miraculously better. Like instantly it was yeah. It was. Yeah that was really a trying period because you know it was terrible. You were laid up. There were some nights you couldn't get out of bed. So we would play as Yeah. So we. So had you noticed a correlation between the pain and your periods. No I always had really bad periods. But it was like that spring they got like really bad. And then like just more and more it wasn't just during my period it was like all of the time. And it was like it was really disabling like I started a new job and I felt like I couldn't really cope with it because I just was in pain all the time. I was very surprised that I got pregnant then because I wasn't we didn't burn in the mood at least I wasn't in the mood at all but I was in a lot of pain. So abdominal pain and sex don't necessarily mean they're not the best. So that kind of you know totally came out of the blue. And statistically speaking I think we just got really fucking lucky. Did you ever find anything that was helpful outside from getting pregnant. I tried on showers. We got some. Ideas. Meditation is kind of like a weird purchase. It was very very well very highly recommended people who have IBS situation. So when did you do that meditation. I don't really remember get very first let's. It wasn't just here. I'm just general meditation too. So I just got solidarity and I get to the only part I remember was that you entered a room like a vault that had a wheel and you could spin a wheel to either speed up your digestive track or the other way to slow that. Yeah. That's yeah. And you visualize your pain level as a dial too and you try to dilute that. And you feel like it was helpful. I don't know maybe maybe if I had stuck maybe if I hadn't gotten knocked up I would have stuck with him. Maybe if you had maybe if you had IBS opposed. Well but you do I mean that's just the center of it so. So sure I had it it just wasn't the root cause of the problem. Right. As far as I can tell. Now Lizzie at this point had done enough Google research and suspected she probably had endometriosis. And this is why getting pregnant solved her problem. Her GI doc who hadn't thought of sending her to a good ecologist yet essentially confirmed her thoughts. And when you finally did get pregnant and you followed up with that gastroenterologists. Yeah I was like I felt a great deal like oh that makes sense we were starting to suspect that maybe there was end of it and she said like I just need to stay pregnant for the next 15 years. I was like oh cool. You have a prescription for that? Let's take a moment to talk about endometriosis for a second. So the endometrium is the layer of cells that lines the inside of the uterus. These cells are responsive to hormones particularly estrogen and plump and grow over the course of a cycle and then slough off during a period. OK. Can we all agree slough is just a weird word? anyway endometriosis is when cells that act just like the endometrium start growing in places they shouldn't notably outside the uterus on the ovaries and anywhere in the abdominal cavity basically places you do not want. Cells that grown reaction or hormones can either get in the way stretchin and inflame surrounding tissues or in some cases even causal organ and tissues to stick together which you definitely don't want. One of the difficulties have been endometriosis is that it's hard to diagnose. It's rare to be able to see it on an ultrasound. And often the only way to confirm that someone has it is by doing a laparoscopy or a surgery where you take a camera and look into the abdominal cavity. Not exactly ideal. So the main symptom of endometriosis is abdominal pain. For most women the symptoms are at their worst around their period. But for some this pain can become chronic. And last of all month long the other complication of endometriosis can but not always be infertility. One of the clues that someone has endometriosis is a near complete relief of symptoms after a woman becomes pregnant and suddenly the hormonal balance in the body has changed and shifted and estrogen is no longer the dominant force. So those cells sort of become quiet. Mind you it doesn't cure the problem but when someone is pregnant and often during breastfeeding when a woman is not getting a little psycho The symptoms can stay away. Coming full circle given that Lizzie had this intense abdominal pain it did get worse around her cycle and then started to become chronic with no signs of gastrointestinal problems and disappeared completely with pregnancy. The theory was she most likely had end ended the truce. So Lizzie with her chronic pain finally calmed from getting pregnant but went on to have a normal pregnancy and she gave birth to their son Luke when she was 32 years old. After giving birth and breastfeeding for a while her periods return and thankfully weren't nearly as bad as before and she wasn't getting any pain between her periods. So after three years of enjoying life with her new son John and Lizzie decided it might be time to try for another child back before conceiving Luke. Lizzie was pretty sure she was going to have a hard time conceiving the first time around even before she had the bout of abdominal pain. So the second time around she was very sensitive to how long things were taking. Being 35 at this point she was quick to seek help when she didn't conceive as fast as she did last night. I have to admit because I thought it would be hard like. There was a little part. It was like a little smug about the whole thing and I was like oh I dodged that bullet like for to go. I'm just 35 now so I should be fine. Like we're getting it's all done just right on schedule. So yeah. But once we had gone like three or four months I was like now we got to see the doctor right now which is pretty fast I guess. Like I don't think most people would necessarily assume that but you had your eyes on the clock and like when we knew exactly what I was on the list. And like yeah I ovulate pretty regularly. That's not my diet. That wasn't the issue. And also the longer term clock which is if this was going to continue to be a problem you didn't want to have to. That's true. Like I said. Yeah. I didn't I didn't want to draw out the process of having more children for indefinite years. Yes. So very quickly she got a referral from her. She went to see a fertility specialist. And after her first visit a few issues quickly became apparent. Probably our first deployment they were like oh yeah you've got a kid at home like this should all work out. And then they did you know like the basic tests and saw endometriomas on my ovaries. So at that point once they saw that and then my you know at this age and age levels which were all kind of borderline then they would you know at first they were like oh we would say you guys should drive by yourselves for another three or four months and once they saw all the numbers and they said Now let's get going. They also quickly found out that when you're trying very hard to conceive that window where you need to actually you know do the thing doesn't occur at the most convenient times. Yeah. We did one cycle there was Clomid only one when you just. Well no it wasn't even an IOI. It was just a Clomid cycle. When we were in Florida because it was really awkward we had to kick your brother and tell him room was super super awkward. Are there other brothers wedding and we have all been booked into one room because there were limited numbers of rooms. So that's where it was. How did that go down. You know. At some point I put them aside and I said can you come back. Can I make sure you get back later. There was no other way to do it. Did you ever say no to this. Yet. I was a little bit of a throwback. Oh god I'm remembering because I definitely when I had to ask my rather than immediately felt awkward and started like explaining it he called back and I actually looked like you say have known. That there was an older guy sitting in the room. We didn't know that that guy wasn't going to come back and tell him Matt Kelce just told I think we trusted your brother to take care of me. Yeah. And this was the first time you were like a good family. But that didn't work. So with Clomid by itself not working for a few cycles they started combining the Clomid with you were intrauterine insemination. They did this three times and again had no luck. Secondary infertility is interesting because there's already a child in the picture. So even the word infertility particularly John and Lizzie didn't feel right. I don't know how often I felt called upon to like call it anything I didn't like if I didn't get pregnant. I mean that's what it takes to realize it. The question of infertility is like shit are we ever going to have a baby. Instead of the concept of infertility Lizzie had a slightly different thought process. No it made me think about death a lot. But I mean yes that's not. Not that I felt my death was imminent in any way. But I just certainly like wow this is this period of my life is over like significantly sooner than I thought it would be. So your own mortality what you were thinking like your own death or just the of my own mortality my parent's mortality just named you really ruminate on. The life span of people. You know there's a great book that came out about a year ago like sort of right when I was doing IVF called the art of waiting. You know if you guys have heard of that I want to read that one it's by Bell Boggs. It's great. It's a she is a writer experienced infertility end up doing IVF has a daughter but the way she talked about it was you know somewhat literary somewhat political. And so yeah reading that was awful. You know if this baby thing is not going to happen you get impatient it's like yeah. I mean really really current circumstances when they're predicated upon a certain event which against your expectations is not arriving and infertility like you know in addition to the grief and the loss. It completely maddening because. Of the cycle of it every month. You know you're always waiting for something. And it just doesn't leave a lot of headspace for anything else. I mean you and then you're like beating yourself up for letting it take up that had. But I remember struggling to figure out. What comfort I can offer when you would say things like I mean I don't I don't know what to look like. My body is broken like I guess I'm just old and dried up and yeah these things he would say. I mean I think for me because I did conceive at 32 and I didn't at 35 like there was a hole. I mean on one level like already having a kid is a great way to experience infertility because you already have a kid and you do have some amount of confidence that your body can do this but somehow it like then played much more into like. Thinking about mortality and just you know the way that your body changes and all of that. And I think also you know in thinking about timelines around having a family both John and I our parents are not young like they're allowed to be more precise. But my parents my dad's like 82. Yeah. My mom’s 72. John’s dad was a Catholic priest before he had kids. He had kids like over again. My mother was a secretary of the rectory also. So that's better. So Luke was the first grandchild on both sides. So I think that there is definitely a story that. I wanted to have kids younger so that my kids didn't necessarily feel the same pressure that no one ever put on me. But I just felt that anyway about you know having grandchildren. Well they did. They put it on me but not directly. And a very nicely. Night you got your parents there both of our parents now all are going to deny that for a second. Secondary infertility provides unique challenges especially during the fertility treatment process. Well someone's going through treatment. Aside from the effects of the medications and the financial cost there's also the amount of time it can take. And I don't mean before conceiving but literally time out of the day going for bloodwork ultrasounds diagnostics consultations and on and on. Now take all of that an added to the already insanely difficult concept of scheduling when you have two working parents managing careers that hopefully are stable and a two and a half year old after the third eye you didn't work. It was clear that the bigger jump into IVF was looming as the next step in their treatment plan. This led to a split in John and was he's thinking in many ways because of timing I had made some kind of peace already with the one child scenario. So I was happy to keep going. But hey it's already great. Like we already have a child. You know your body's already done what it had to do but it was so good to being pregnant. I just wanted to get pregnant again. I knew once I got to there you go. And there were there were other stressors too like any significant ones. This nation does not provide for its mothers. Yes. And you were holding off making career decisions or you were holding off making these plans because you had this other thing to deal with. We both did. So I say I was happy with the one child scenario but I wanted another kid like me and I want wanted to happen. And we both wanted it to happen. And. Because there is no support for women in the workforce when they get pregnant like we had to figure out how to time it with my wife's biology like it's bizarre and it's dumb but it's it's a situation we were we were. Not to mention the actual financial cost of infertility treatment. Do you feel like you were. Do you feel like you were a part of the process or did you feel like you were if I were married and we have a child so I was definitely part of the process because if Lizzie has to go to the doctors in the morning then I'm you know I have to you know even if I was at the store until 1:00 in the morning the night before I have to get up at 7:00 and bring Luke in. So in that sense of partnership there's always going to be the give and take. You know we talked about how it can be time consuming sometimes in terms of researching and paying attention to all the details. I feel like I just did a ditto and a half to be able to listen respectfully and understand what was happening when and why. Yeah. I didn't feel like there was a lack of involvement. And like if anything. You know he'd start offering a ton of opinions about certain aspects of it I probably like right now. So. Did you find that your relationship or your parenting towards loop changed at all. Did you like love a little bit more or were you annoyed more. Yeah well I mean so all of this coincided with like him from age two to three and a half which is you know. Typically a somewhat challenging period. So sometimes went one way where I'd be like oh I'm so grateful that I have this child like it's so easy to have patience with it you know and then sometimes I would just spend time beating myself up around like why can't I have a child. So. I mean the short answer is is no I mean he was already his own singular human tiny human being. And so I mean if if it wasn't going to be IVF it distracts your attention from your child there's always a record from a child that big believer in good enough parenting as long as you pay attention most of the time. By. Given just how difficult it is to plan through scheduling work fertility treatments and quality time with your son Luke Lizzie and John both impressed me with also figuring out how to add self-care which is often what goes out the window when appointments are piling up all day and I couldn't get away. Did you find that to be helpful. Yes it was great. No I'm saying I'm 100 percent it was awesome. Full disclosure here. Her acupuncturist was yours truly. It's awesome anyway. Like nothing else the chill that's so great you value the time a lot. Yeah. I know you have made sure that I could work around you know my schedule which is a day care vigorous days which is challenging in order to make it happen. Right. So chill you out given the you know the stakes side he said was very valuable. Did you have something. I had a therapist which was good. Good enough. Did they test you through the course of things. They did. Vanilla. Yes. When we were doing the SATs and you know you went over your numbers and then just went over my numbers. What did you what did you do. You didn't slap me in the ass and pat me on the. Way to go champ like squats you're like I'm sorry I figured you want to hear that. I this is the funniest thing. Like I don't know how my first goals of the podcast were to get people to understand what people would especially women go through infertility. Can we make the second goal. How to how to get away from congratulating men on their sperm count. I like to go down I think I have. Around this time. After three failed you. And IVF being something they both want shorter. As they often do. Life events change their thinking entirely. IVF really wasn't. Like on the table at all until. So this is crazy timing. A year ago tomorrow a really good friend of mine passed away. She'd been in a non-responsive state for seven years before that because of a bike accident. But you know that was still like a fresh loss. Or a fresh round of grief I guess. So when that happened I had a moment where I kind of freaked out at the idea of only having one child and how like oppressively protective I was going to be of my single child. So that was like pretty much a 180 on the whole question of IVF for me. And when that happened I said hey I think we should change our plans entirely and we did really quickly. Yes. Yes we do yeah because frankly the only real reason I thought I didn't want to do IVF was this was the repetition of expense and it's like how much do I really want to pay for kid is what it starts to feel get to say well pay for the chance that I can. And it was a really crazy thing right. I mean like if you told me you can pay $8000 and have a kid like you're done. But as it is you can pay in dollars and have a shitty month or two. So we had. We did have like a pretty in-depth discussion or like a pretty firm agreement. Of course it's. If you do it and it works then it's hard to know how firm your agreement was. But we we said we were only going to do it once and we were doing it somewhat just to put the issue to bed. So we do know we tried everything. And then we're moving on in life so down the IVF path they went and everything that came with it. Bloodwork ultrasounds injectable hormones the whole thing. As you've already heard in previous episodes it can be both intense and hilarious. Who did the injections. By the way that was the sound of Lizzie raising her hand. Except the one in your butt. So I just had the one trigger shot and I got my friend who was a doctor helped me with the one injection that wasn't on my stomach. And where was John he was if I was at work. I mean the timing of this is pretty. Yeah that one is ice. You have to do it at the right time. And I had 36 hours before and he was at work almost always at work. So yeah my friends have a bunch of little kids so I look and I just took the bus up to their house and played with their kids are actually both doctors so I had my choice of husband or the wife. Mean it was great. I highly recommend them as an actor. Let them work. Do you ever have to do any of the needles. I never did. And to be honest with you that's for the best because I developed late life. Needle fear. They them. So as we've already talked about with IVF IVF often entails doing injectable hormones these hormones stimulate the growth of follicles that contain the eggs and that the physician will go in and retrieve the eggs after they've grown to maturity. Now aside from the stress of the whole process it's often not easy to deal with the hormones themselves as any change in hormone levels for a woman or men for that matter can affect your mood your desires your weight your digestion all of it. Lizzie felt lucky that they didn't appear to be affecting her as much as she had her did affect other people. Like do you feel like the hormones were affecting her in ways that you could see. No. Surprisingly enough. Because I I actually you know I was concerned about that. I read about it and I I guess what I'm gauging it against though is the hormone reaction that comes post namely after birth because my wife between the two of us I am I tend to be the sentimental one. But we're proud of that effect. But after birth never forget she. Lizzy was there with the newborn and just weeping. And so she's going to go to college. I was like oh this is something I'm not used to dealing with the conflicts of my marriage. And I said OK. So yeah compared to that. No not a blip. Again at the comparison of scales either my entire life hormones have had so much effect that I have just like adjusted to. That's just the way I'm living my life. And these particular hormones didn't really change you know whatever dramatic effects were already going on. Or I just got lucky and they didn't have a ton of effect in terms of I mean it wasn't comfortable. Like right before Agur betrayal. Like you just kind of felt blobby and gross but I wasn't in pain and I wasn't especially emotional. Do you feel like you got used to abdominal pain at that point so it just it was like Who knows. Like my baseline might just be a way out of whack with everyone else. How is a retrieval going under anesthesia. I'm just fine like it. You know it's got its own weird appeal of getting. Anesthesia. You don't like it. No it's terrible. But it was get something else to deal. With the fact that you have no memory of it. It's like oh yeah I did yell at you when I woke up when I woke up. I rang the nurse. You were telling her you were just making sure she was going to go vote. So when I woke up from that I was saying the first thing I said was Are you registered to vote because this was October 2016. How is it for you. Just in terms of was doing everything you needed to do in the clinic. Easy hard. Problematic funny. Is it easy. Well. You nailed it. The most things the producing week was like the week they are grown embryos because they like calling you every two days. That's OK. What does she mean by growing embryos. So after all the injections she was ready for retrieval. Once all of the eggs are retrieved the embryologist takes a look at the State of them calls out the ones that aren't developed enough to be fertilized and then joins them with the sperm for fertilization either in a dish or with X-C where they inject it right into the egg. Much of the time once the eggs are in the lab patients end up talking to the embryologists more than they do the doctor because the religious are the ones that are fostering the development of the embryo. These numbers only burned in your consciousness right. So they've got 12 eggs 11 which are six fertilized I guess day one after fertilization and three of them looked good. And then on day three because they don't check them in between or something I forget what day is this get whatever the point is. At one point there were three then there were two. And then when it was free is that there was only one. So that was when I was like sort of losing my shit. But the evil side is we don't have to make any weird decisions about what to do with embryos. So there you go. I mean really difficult decisions is what I mean by weird in that context. Was that a conversation you guys had before. Well you have to make it with the paperwork. Yes you do have to like sign a bunch of stuff about like if one of us dies if we get to divorces and improve if we both die. I mean I think that we in that case just said like donate to science but so they had one embryo to work with. And as you've seen from some of our past interviews sometimes one is all you need. But before they could go forward Lucy had to have surgery. The one thing she had successfully avoided all these years dealing with endometriosis. When did you even find out that you had a problem. Yeah. In the middle of my stem cycle which I was like oh cool guys leg. How long has that been around. And I mean honestly it was a different doctor on the day that he found the polyp and he also sort of acted a little taken aback by the situation. So sure if I went on like get all bitter and pissed off I was part of me it's like well maybe it wasn't my problem the whole time. Other than this dumb polyp and if he had taken a poll about that maybe I could've gotten pregnant without IVF. But you know I'm only going to go down that road so far had it been there the whole time. I don't know. Who knows. I don't know how to read an ultrasound. Millions of pounds done and I still need time to look at the screen on my guy I don't know what the fuck you're telling me is whatever. What was the surgery anything of remembrance for you. But my anesthesiologist at that time sort of had like poorly applied lipstick and that like really made me nervous. Look I trust you little more precision would be the thing in this case. So that's what I remember from that one. But it was like a little extra a bit of a lesson here. Well if you find out this is what happens when you die or what have you turned over. And so the first time around it was very smooth it was just like at one point. Got it right. Good to go and this time like she had to. It was really painful. She tried a couple of different occasions and like my wrist ended up like all black and yellow and stuff I have no idea what her name is but I wouldn't recommend her having only one embryo. After all they put into it changed their perspective a bit and reminded them both of what they had been sacrificing in the quest for another child. And in a sense how grateful they were for what they had. The timing of their embryo transfer though wasn't with Lizzie and John expected because something happened to the world around us and it also changed their perspective. I mean we were talking about it when we found that we only had one embryo at least from my point of view we were ready to be let go. Yeah. All right let's. I mean the other here because we did other things on hold and we made the conscious decision to say we can't do that forever and we're not going to be the first second child when we already have one. The other the timing thing that ended up we were with the embryo transfer was that it was we didn't get to time it exactly we just word they were monitoring my very closely. I usually have really regular periods but for whatever reason you know either because my body was still getting over the IVF drugs are back to me or whatever it was it got kind of drawn out and we ended up having to transfer. Let's see about 10 days after Trump was elected. And we definitely both looked to each other and we're like are we fucking doing this like this is insane. Like what. What are we doing. Like why do we want a second. Why do we want the child we have like this. Everything is terrible. So I think that we were both at that point just assuming it was go to work because you know we didn't up with one embryo I was like Well clearly you know my eggs are worth shit at this point and you know let's just get this thing behind us. So I think our assumption then was let's do this then it will be over. But at the same time just like the fact that the goal of it was to make a new life in the context we're in also felt that insane what was a transfer like. I mean you had like one you kind of had like the one I'm done. Yeah let's see how it go. I think John had hurt his hand at work that day and I was holding his hand and like I think re-inserted is so hard. Yeah I have never had to pay more in my life. It was really terrible. And I like when they turned off all the lights in the room and my then the doctor has like a hit livable and you're just like fuck me like this is the worst case scenario like this was going to be long you know like I just I cracked up and I was like I'm sorry. Just the absurdity of this. And luckily the doctor was great. He was like you know I don't even notice anymore. But it is completely absurd you're right. Thank you for acknowledging that we were in pain because your hand I was trying to get them which he hadn't. And it started later that I had to restrain myself. But yeah and then they come in. Like with the embryo they're like OK. Say your name and birth date. And I was like oh you're freaking me out because like you know clearly. They're confirming that they're getting it right. But I said OK this is really freaking me out. They are like no you should freak out if these didn't match. I was like well at that point. I think I would have kicked everything off the table and been screaming at that did it. Was it painful with an uncomfortable. It's incredibly uncomfortable but I mean it's very temporary. So with the embryo put back in all they had left to do was wait. And sometimes it's hard to stay positive. It took a coworker saying Wake up. It only takes one to be let go. Oh it's true. And it was like a day before we got the test back. Yeah. I mean I tested before I went in the morning I wasn't really happy it was disbelief. I mean I don't know I just know it was great. Was it was awesome. It turns out the person who was the least worried that everything was going to turn out OK. So this is somebody who sort of knew something was going on because like me you know there were a lot of mornings that I had to go to the doctor or whatever. I think at some point you know he was asking me why I had to go to the doctor and I either didn't want him to worry or I was just like out of coming up with stories or something. So I was like because I'm trying to get pregnant. And the doctors are going to help me have a baby which he interpreted as I'm going to have a baby sister. So he told everyone in his day care that he is going to have a baby sister. And they all like how did he get that idea in his head. And I was like gosh I don't know. Don't ask me if I'm pregnant. So then months later whether he in fact when I when I was pregnant they're all like how. How did Luke know that you were going to get pregnant. I was like I don't know if the mercury part is how did he know it was going to be a girl. Yes it was finally Darrius are going to want to find out the gender of it takes. We did find out and we told them look you're going to have a sister who died a year ago you know in terms of your enemy Torrijos this has anyone I assume this is a conversation that maybe happens later but is anyone talks about what to do. Post delivery. Yeah. Well no I mean I actually do have to. This is maybe related maybe not. But my 20 week ultrasound there was enough like funny business going on with my ovaries that I have to go get them checked out after the baby's born because they were like We're not going to try to figure out like what all this crap hanging off your ovaries is right now because it could just be pregnancy you know like there's too many different variables. But you know so like worst case scenario that's something really scary like ovarian cancer. I mean I assume that you all have like the reprieve of nursing again for as long as I'm doing that. I don't think I know mentri as this is going to be an issue. But you know somewhere around a year from now I guess the question will be doing. So as we were doing this interview Lizzie was a little over 38 weeks pregnant right as we were wrapping up. Laura asked whether their original plan had involved more than two kids and whether there was a plan to try again. And then Lizzie started sharing why she wasn't kidding about assuming things would be difficult for her. And she started to tell us about her family history. Lizzie's mom had trouble and conceived the first time soon after getting an HSG which is the test to see if the fallopian tubes are clear. She then had another HSG right before getting pregnant again the second time around. And apparently John's parents had difficulty as well. Well my mom was 38 when she started and she had two more kids after me. So she had 38 40 42 she had babies. The doctors told them right off the bat. I mean this was the 80s. But the doctors said like look you have less than 1 percent chance of getting fertile because of having a way of getting pregnant because not only was my mom 38 and having trouble but my dad's sperm count was low on top of that. So it was like they were kind of telling her it's not going to happen but we'll do these are you guys. So she had she had me by or an insemination she and my younger brother by intrauterine insemination. But then my youngest brother was just like yeah. And that's exactly it. It was exactly the same for my parents. My youngest of three. And my mom used H s gs for her first two and then she conceived me wearing a diaphragms so I can see you know. So I guess for those 38 I don't know. We haven't figured that one. But it's not in our plans. It's not. We got a complete set. Wrap it up. I love it when people give me end lines. I said that's all life is great says Luke’s predicted baby sister Ursula was born in August. Now wait before we go I wanted to bring it back around to the metaphor that started this whole thing. Do you have a power drill? Do you use it. Yeah. Oh not as often as I should have. Do you feel like you've been to a lot of money on less than how much money I spent maintaining my reproductive system. That was the line I was looking for. Thanks so much to Lizzie and John for telling their story we have links on our site to the book they were talking about the art of waiting as well as more information on endometriosis for those interested in learning more at waitingforbabies.com. waiting for babies is produced by me Steven Mavros, us with help on interviews by my office manager extraordinaire Laura Mullin. Our theme music is by quiet music for tiny robots. In case you missed the last episode, waiting for babies is one of the community partners for the ART of infertility and their exhibition called cradling creativity will be in Philadelphia the entire month of November at the Old City Jewish art center. So come visit the art of infertility curates our work of all kinds created by women and men who struggled with infertility. Links to all of that information will be on our site at waiting for babies doc. We'll be back soon with more stories of infertility. Till then. This is Steven Mavros. See you next time. There were actually too many bonus clips I could have added at the end here but this one was perfect. See both Laura and I are very allergic to cats and we do these interviews at people's homes so that can be a hazard at times. Sometimes we're smart enough to ask whether they have cats ahead of time and we take allergy meds but sometimes we forget to do that. And for some reason cats seem to be drawn to me and want to be best. We'll start with basics just in terms of when you guys first wanted to start trying was there. Sorry. This was a cat a few men. I love the record. It was my first holidays were just standing there and I feel like I lost all this I started trying to take a to see him coming close to wavier are going trying to get better. Sometimes it's like I feel like sometimes I stare them down for a little while but then they're just like goodness thank you for doing something that I just don't like because then it gets worse. And I was ready to get tangled and that was the other reason I didn't move because I knew it was going crazy. OK great let's talk about babies instead. Hey. This audio features the song "Lullaby for a Broken Circuit" and "You Were My Robot Lover" by Quiet Music for Tiny Robots, "Readers, Do You Read" by Chris Zabriskie, and "The Last Slice of Pecan Pie (Instrumental Version)" by Josh Woodward, all available under a Creative Commons Attribution license.

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  • 01:00:56

    WFB Live! - Elizabeth & Maria

    · Waiting for Babies

    Elizabeth and Scott tried for over a year to conceive before becoming instant parents of 3 girls after his sister got sick. When the girls moved away, they started trying again and years of frustration followed. Maria and Kevin were barely 25 when they landed at a fertility specialist, with options they weren't interested in.  After randomly meeting in DC, they combined their passions and conceived of something to help everyone going through what they were.  Our live episode was recorded on stage at our launch party in Philadelphia on August 9th, 2017 at We Work in Northern Liberties.  ART of Infertility  The ART of Infertility is an international arts organization based in the U.S. Founded in 2014, we curate innovative and emotionally provoking art exhibits to portray the realities, pains and joys of living with IF. We also design engaging curriculums to host art and writing workshops. We plan educational, outreach events. We advocate for infertility rights. Most of all, we provide support for those living in the shadows of infertility. Through art, we break the silence around reproductive grief and push back against common misconceptions. We invite you to join us in our fight to make infertility visible. Photos from the WFB Live Event and Launch Party - August 9th, 2017 From left: Maria, Elizabeth, Steven and Laura HAC Co-Founder Dr. Barry Silverman with Steven & Laura Part of the collection from ART of IF Transcript (transcripts are for purposes of searching and are approximations at best) Hey everyone, this is Steven Mavros and this is a special edition of Waiting for Babies recorded live at our launch party on August 9th at We Work in Northern Liberties in Philadelphia. I was joined onstage by our associate producer Laura Mullin and our guests for the evening were Elizabeth Walker and Maria Novotny who are the co-directors of the art of infertility an arts organization that curates innovative and emotionally provocative art exhibitions to portray the realities pains and joys of living with infertility. Elizabeth founded the organization back in 2014 after going through a long struggle with infertility. And Maria joined soon after. This is the story of how they got their. So I kind of want to first of all thank you all so much for being here. You guys are fantastic my family my friends are here and it's awesome. So I'm very very thankful to have with me as our guest Elizabeth Walker and Maria Novotny who came all the way from Michigan and Wisconsin to be here. And I'd like to bring Elizabeth up on the stage now. You just have to turn the microphone on and I will. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for being here. So excited to be here. Essentially we are going to go through this like I would normally on the podcast I'm going to just ask a lot of questions. We're going to start with basics and kind of work from there. I like to start back in the beginning when you first started trying to get pregnant and trying to conceive and you got married when you were 26. And you waited a few years before I actually started to try. But I know you're a planner. So even before you started physically trying you already had some books and even had a funny idea of like when your timing should be. Yes so my husband I got married and we knew we didn't want to try. To add to our family right away we were pretty content adjusting to marriage and just doing our thing. And I think I was ready probably a couple years before my husband was and we talk about it pretty regularly. And his solution because he didn't really feel like making a decision about it was for me to just decide when I felt the time was right and I would just go off birth control and not tell him and that he would just be happy like just be surprised and happy when it happened. So I didn't think that was a good idea at all. That's something terrible to me. So we didn't go with that plan but I did. I started doing some research and reading some books and talked to my doctor and took prenatal vitamins and you know figured out all the things I needed to do before we would start trying to conceive. So the kind of the last plan was that my favorite tampons were being discontinued like they were no longer going to be available. And when I realized this I thought I better stock up because they're not going to be Bill any more. And I bought a couple of cases online and had them shipped to my house and then I thought OK well how long will these last me like maybe my plan should be when the tampons are gone. That would be a good time to start trying to have that baby. So I kind of did the math and I told my husband I think this is a good plan and he kind of looked at me like I was completely crazy. But he's like OK so that's what happened when the two months were gone in less Fox's open. Like OK when he is gone we'll try. I feel like. I feel like some women I know like some women have kind of a background of fear that they're going to have trouble getting pregnant but that doesn't sound like it was you know it wasn't at all. I really felt like I would be some kind of like pregnancy overachiever like I would just decide to try and it would happen. I think I in my life I'm used to being able to set goals and work hard to make you know those goals reality and I thought that pregnancy would be the same. And it turned out that it was not at all. So you started tracking your cycle and you started doing that for like about six months or so and you started noticing that something was a little off. I did and I figured you know from my research I knew that I could take some time. Going off birth control before my cycles would regulate but it was pretty clear from charting that my charts were all over the place and they're supposed to kind of follow this nice pretty steady path and then spike and then stay up. Mine didn't. None of that. They were just kind of all over the place. So I knew pretty soon that something was wrong. It didn't feel right to me. And also the time between elation and my next period started or the luteal phase was shorter than it should be. So I would start my period before any potential embryos that had been created would have time to implant essentially. So I feel like right around the time that you were maybe thinking or contemplating about finding a specialist or at least seeing your g y then life kind of took a little bit of a turn on you and. Your sister and I got sick and suddenly you found yourself thrust into parenthood. Exactly. So my sister in law got sick and I remember when I was out of town visiting my sister and my husband called and said Shelly says she's dying and I was like that's completely ridiculous she's not dying like she's being completely dramatic. She was always very dramatic anyway and I was like whatever it's fine I'll come back for my vacation I'll figure this out. She's not dying. That was Halloween and by her birthday on December 1st she was essentially in a medically induced coma. So she was right unfortunately and she had just gotten divorced and her ex-husband worked midnight so with their 50/50 custody split the girls she had three young girls who were just four six and nine at the time came to live with us on her days along with their dog. So we went from being this you know. Couple carefree with a couple of cats to parenting and having a dog overnight. And well that was a horrible horrible circumstance that. It was still is one of the best experiences in my life having the girls in the house for those months and parenting them and and doing all the things that I want to do as a parent you know. Tell them to brush their teeth and comforting them after a nightmare and all those things the small things that are so important to me. How long. So they leave and how long did it take for you guys to get back to it like did that make you want to pause or did that make you want to keep trying. Yes so Shirley ended up dying and the girls ended up moving to Minnesota which is about 600 miles from where we live in Michigan. So it was completely devastating. Natalie was my sister in law gone. The girls were gone. I couldn't get pregnant. And a lot of people's solution for me to deal with my grief was. Oh we'll just just have a baby like you just need to have a baby of your own and it'll be a happy thing. And they didn't know that we are. We've been struggling that we've been trying to conceive for at this time already. At least a full year. And it was it was a struggle so we needed to take some time from that to regroup and grieve and figure things out. So it was about two years into dealing with infertility that we finally did go and get tested. You were you know you were basically dealing with the grief of all of that you were dealing with the grief of infertility you were dealing with the grief of losing your sister in law and losing your girls essentially. So you make it to a fertility specialist and they come up with the idea that they have a plan for you was there. It sounds like you guys went kind of into treatment you started doing some basic medications like coma pain and then you started doing insemination. What happened. Yes I started off with my gonna ecologist again I probably would have gone to a specialist sooner but we were still kind of recovering. So I did five cycles of Clomid which was hopefully going to make my relations stronger because my obligation was weak it was weight weak it was not going to result in a baby. So the hope was that if I went on this medication we'd get my. My ambulation date moving sooner and my cycle instead of leader. And make it a stronger better cycle. Did it work for you. It did not work. So my doctor really wanted us to try six times but I was like it's been five it's not going to happen let's just move on to the next step but we were ready to go see a specialist. So we moved on to a reproductive and technologist and tried some inner inseminations interviewed or inseminations with a hybrid cycle so I was taking oral medications along with injectable medications. How did you do with the hormones and all the medication. I honestly didn't have a problem I think I was pretty easy going and we did talk and confirm that with my husband a couple of weeks ago he said I was OK. So really I felt like it wasn't a big deal. I was going to say husbands don't always say that but I usually just tell them to shut up. So I really felt like it really wasn't. That much of a problem for me being on the medications. Right. But you were also. Dealing with other things and there was not only the mental cost of using these hormones but there was a physical cost for you. Right. So I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia about the same time I was diagnosed with infertility and it's a central sensitisation disorder which basically means like all of your signals are on overdrive. So any pain signal is amplified. And he's and he's of your senses are amplified. So I was dealing with a lot of chronic pain and fatigue. And the solution to deal with that was to start taking some medications that I could not take because I was trying to get pregnant so I couldn't take the medication to make me feel better. But. I needed these other medications to try to get me pregnant. And those medications were making me feel worse. So it was kind of this vicious cycle of dealing with pain and not getting pregnant and just trying to manage all of that. Now you had one fun coping mechanism which is that you know this thing takes time every time you try to cycle the month. And at the end of the month when you get your period it can be devastating. And you had a little trick that yeah it worked OK for a while. But I would go every time my my period started I would go shopping and I would buy a new piece of clothing. And usually it was a top that because I didn't want to buy pants because the goal was that I didn't want to be able to fit into my pants but a sweater might give you a little more time to wear for the first trimester. So I would go and buy usually a new sweater because it was winter at that time when it started doing this and soon I swear my drawers were just overflowing with sweaters. There were just too many clothes to contain. But I did find it was helpful because it was kind of like my reward for failing every month. In some ways and giving me something to look forward to if I didn't have a baby at least I would look cute. Mine is water I guess. So at this point did they start talking about moving on and going yeah yeah. After we finished the for you guys the next step would be IVF. My doctor did did say that if I wanted to we could do an exploratory laparoscopy to do a surgery and look around and check things out before we moved on to IVF. And I felt for me that would give me the most information to make a decision about moving forward and possibly eliminate any problems that could exist that might affect IVF in a negative way. So before moving on to IVF I wanted to do that. Did they find anything with the exploratory surgery. They did. They confirmed that I had endometriosis which can also cause problems with conceiving and I found a couple of polyps but basically it was the endometriosis and clean that out and didn't find any other issues so with everything cleaned up and ready to go. And the thought that I would move on to IVF when I was ready wasn't quite ready at that time. But that would be the next step if we decided to move on. Now you were in recovery for a few weeks from the surgery. Normally you can take like a week or two for people to kind of get back on their feet. You seem like you had a unique way to deal with that and to get you through the time. Yes so normally I would have been off for a week from work but because of my fibro my fibromyalgia my doctor wanted to give me more time to recover. So I was off work for three weeks and home. And you know you start to feel better but your can't do anything still and it's kind of frustrating. So I really felt like I needed something to do. And my solution for that was to go and buy some art supplies. And so I had my husband drive me to the art supply store because I couldn't drive. And I picked up some papers and some canvases and some paints and thought I'll just go home and like make something. So I took everything home and I started ripping up paper and take apposing and onto canvas and painting and like using beads and it was just a really great release for me because it just felt like something I could do when I was waiting. And it was helpful and it feels really good to rip a paper. I highly recommend ripping out paper. So was it at this point that you had an idea that art would be a good thing to keep doing or to help other people. Yeah when I made that first piece it kind of became something that like an extra tool in my toolbox I tried to rely on a much different tools through out dealing with infertility. So it was a new tool I had. And I really felt well dealing with infertility that it's so invisible you know it was impacting me in such a huge way it was something that was rocking my world and consuming my every thought. But there was nothing that was showing that on the outside. There was no way to to show that. And I felt that art was a way that I could create something that would be tangible and that would be something that was physical proof of my infertility experience. And at first it was just kind of for myself and then I realized it could be a really great tool for sharing with my friends and family to kind of give them a clue as to what was going on in my life too. So I just started creating some pieces around my experience. At this point. You're about to go through IVF and they put you on hormones. You do all the injectable medications they basically take your ovaries and turn them from peas to you know golf balls and they. Go in they take the fall they take the eggs out and that is a surgical procedure like basically you're under anesthesia. They're taking a needle kind of piercing through the uterine wall. Fine. Yeah I'm like a good time right. And most of the time people go home and lay on the couch for a day maybe two days and are OK. But you didn't necessarily have that happen. You know that's happened to me. I I left and I was feeling ok. I remember waking up her man decision saying like yeah this was so easy I could do that again no problem. But we actually had decided already that we were only going to do one one IVF cycle even though we knew that wasn't the best. You know like a recommended plan because it's likely not to succeed and one cycle for our family we felt like it was the best fit. So we had already decided that we would do one cycle and any embryos that resulted from the cycle we would transfer and then our paths at least to genetic Parenthood would be done. So we had already decided one was it but it was pretty good. However as the day wore on I was feeling really like a lot of increased pressure and a lot of pain and I thought it was just like Gask. They can say I can be a problem after the procedure. But it was pretty clear by the evening that that was not the case. And I ended up in the E.R.. With internal bleeding and ovarian. Oh very in 2000. And when I explain what I know what I know for sure. Yeah. So basically you like your your ovaries here and the tubes here and it's supposed to be in a certain spot and it just kind of like it was surrounded like flops over. So it's. Well and that's what I envisioned like I'm a visual person like in my mind my ovary was like flopped over. Well probably because my doctor also said she said later because they had to go in and remove the blood. And by that point actually my ovary had gone back into the right position. But she said there was one one follicle that was kind of bigger and it kind of flopped over. So that's I mean I don't know maybe she didn't know that I was recovering. Who knows. That was pretty drugs and had done a lot of pain. So how long did it take to like did the pain go away immediately or were you the really severe pain went away as soon as the surgery was over. But it was a pretty rough recovery because my stomach was so enlarged from all of the blood that was in my abdomen that I had a lot of bruising and it took me a really long time to recover from that. Right now just so everyone has an idea this is not a normal thing that happens around. IVF it is a really rare complication. You just happen to have all the luck. I'm very lucky. So how long after that. Did we. Did you feel like you were actually ready to go to the next step of IVF or they actually put the. Yes. I mean they were treat the eggs and they created embryos and we had. Three beautiful day five blastocysts that were gorgeous and wonderful. We ended up doing a transfer a couple months later so we didn't have to wait too long. Just give me a couple of months to recover and then transferred two of our three embryos and I surprisingly got pregnant. I was not at all prepared to get pregnant because that had never happened before I'd never seen a positive test. I never I took Actually I took a more pregnancy test when I was on birth control than I did when I was trying to conceive because I was I thought it like when when you were younger and you were trying not to get pregnant. Even when I was married and trying not to get pregnant I was like I was afraid I would be one of those people who got pregnant and didn't know. And so I would get freaked out and by tests every now and then and be really like OK I'm I'm not pregnant. So I actually took more tests before I tried to you know have that baby than I did after that came out right. So my husband I were shocked that it was actually positive and I had maybe to the next day which is the blood test to confirm pregnancy. And it was confirmed my numbers were at a 30 which were low but not crazy crazy low so we just we're going to wait for the next test and see how things went and hopefully that would increase and double and unfortunately that wasn't the case when I had my next blood draw the numbers had gone down. So it was clear at that point that the pregnancy was ending. And sometimes what they do afterward is kind of to go in and explore basically to see how the uterus is doing after a miscarriage. And for you it sounds like something they found things that made it even harder. So I had my my history Scobie which was to check out my uterus to make sure I was good to go for my next transfer to transfer the final embryo. And at that point we found out. That. When my doctor was looking around the screen she was like oh. I'm surprised to see this and I was like oh what is it a surprise that doesn't seem like a good thing. But it was leftover products of conception was essentially a pregnancy tissue. So my doctor was surprised she said Oh you must have been a little further along than we thought you were. Here's this leftover tissue. And then she kind of rounded the corner and there was more. So. It was not 100 percent evident but likely I asked you know does the fact that there's tissue in two different spots of my uterus mean that it was twins that actually both embryos implanted. And she said well we can't say hundred percent but yes likely that is the case. And to me seeing that on the screen just totally rocks me just having that visual look at the burn and to my memory seeing what that looked like. And from there I really felt like I needed to take time and recover. So I went home and I told my husband you know we can either stop treatment totally altogether and be done or I need to take a break. So we ended up taking a break. And during that break you you had been doing art before. And I think at that point you kind of had an idea for turning that art into something more. And created what sounds like you were. Enough are to actually show and create an expedition. Yeah I it was making more and more pieces especially around the miscarriage and other things that had happened and I knew from starting to attend that support group that there were some other people doing the same thing. So I reached out to a local museum where I live in Jackson Michigan called Elish Art Museum and asked if they would be interested in doing an infertility art exhibit. The idea being that it would contain artwork created by people at different stages of their journey along with some portraits and interviews to explain what the infertility experience is about. And they said yes so we went ahead to move forward with that. Did that help a lot just in terms of give you something to look forward to. Did that make you want to go back and and keep treating like that. I really felt like I needed some time so we took we took a whole year off. And then when we well almost a year and when we were back actually transfer the last embryo the month before the exhibit opened and that final transfer was unsuccessful. So at that point you know I was putting things a bit together and really at a time when I wanted to crawl up and crawl on my couch and not talk to anyone I had to like create this exhibit and collect artwork and like talk to people and those really horrible. But in the end it was really the best best thing I could have been doing at that time. So you brought up that you had a support group. And what was was that something you organized or was that something that was or it was a pure lead support group by resolve the National Infertility Association. And I was initially going to the group and then later hosted it when the person who was hosting took over or actually need to leave. So I was attending and running support groups and I had the opportunity to go to Advocacy Day in Washington D.C. which is an annual event to lobby on Capitol Hill for improvements to infertility legislation that will help people build their families either via treatment or adoption. So I decided to make the trip to D.C. with their what with what was about advocacy day that really spoke to you like why did you want to advocate or why did you want to. I just feel like you know through doing the art and doing the community event I just felt like there was so much more that I could be doing I really just wanted to be in the community once I was comfortable talking about my own experience through creating art around it and joining with other people and kind of figuring out what infertility meant to me. I wanted to raise awareness and other people and just make it you know kind of bring it out of the shadows so it's not so. So closeted and so so isolating. So we're going to take a pause here and switch over and I'm going to bring up Laura Mullen and Marina Vonni. So I'm going to assume that compared to the majority of the people here in this room you and your husband actually met in high school. Yeah. I met my husband when we were both 15. So I've known him for now a little bit more than my whole life. And trust me. I'm not really always proud of being high school sweethearts like it's like a secret thing. I'm like yeah we're high school sweethearts it's kind of like I never thought I would be that person. To be honest with you because he was just this annoying 15 year old boy at the time but the kind of a joke that it's been around in my family a little bit and has been when I turned 18 my parents came home from their anniversary and told me my sisters and I that they were pregnant and that they were going have a baby. So there's an 18 year old difference between me and my little brother and my husband kind of grew up seeing my mother pregnant and then the birth of my brother and everything like that. And we all come from really large families so Kevin is a large Catholic family. He's the oldest of four. And so at what age did you all get married. We got married when we were 24 years old. So pretty much right out of college. And when we got married essentially my husband took a new job. We were both from Wisconsin and it moved us to Michigan. So at that time we decided to buy a house. We made sure that the House had multiple rooms because really our plan was right away to try and get pregnant. That was something that we kind of grew up it was part of our culture. Like I said his parents got married they had kids right away. My parents got married they kids right away. That was kind of something we were supposed to do. And so how long we all trying to get pregnant until you realize that you should seek medical advice. Yeah. So like the little bad Catholics we were we actually tried it before we're married. I know my parents will die. They hear this now. But we did it and it was you know unsuccessful right away. And that actually remember like three months after our wedding I was like wow this is weird that I'm still not pregnant but we kind of just were like oh whatever we're moving we'll figure it out. And so about a little bit over a year we started to think maybe something's up something totally right. And what was the relationship like during that first year of marriage and then trying with your husband. Yeah. So actually for the first six months we lived in a hotel which was hell. And I honestly feel like if we got there that we could. That's how we got there and fertility. I mean it was a one bedroom hotel and he was kind of doing this training thing for his job. So that was really hard and stressful. We were trying to get pregnant nothing was happening. We did not have our own space whatsoever. And then we finally moved and got our house. But it was also really isolating because we moved to this new state. We didn't know anybody and our family didn't get it. I mean we didn't even know how to talk to them about this because it was always assumed we would just get knocked up like that's what would happen. So it was really kind of scary. And I remember a lot of different times just driving back after going the grocery store and seeing like ladies there in the middle of day I was there in the day you know either pregnant or with their kids and I would just be really devastated and upset. And I remember one time actually came home and I left all the groceries in the car and Kevin was in the kitchen and I went to the bathroom quickly and I got my period and I came out and I literally just collapsed on the floor and just started crying and bawling and was so upset that my body couldn't work and was not doing what I had always wanted it to do. And I actually ended up out of that experience creating a peace that over there called the House that kind of talks a little bit more about how he bought this house and how it always had images of this extra bedroom being this baby's bedroom and having Kevin come home and make dinner. And we had a little playroom actually set up. Off to the kitchen and not knowing any more what that it would mean for us. And what that would mean for us especially living in a place that's totally new and we didn't really have anyone to go to or talk to about. So at the age of 25 you then went to a fertility clinic. What was that like. Yeah. So around that time actually I think right after I had this like little breakdown Kevin was like we need to go make an appointment. So we actually started going to the gynecologist said first like maybe midway when we were trying to get pregnant I was using our relation test everything was coming back fine. I was getting my period nearly like on the day all the time. Kevin when we went to the gynecologist they set him up with a urologist appointment and he got his sperm tested everything came back for that pretty inconclusive. So then we were recommended to go to our local fertility clinic and we did that. And I remember in that consultation it was pretty much recommended that because those are ovulating so regularly at the time and because of his sperm test being inconclusive that we should move right away to IUI and her and it's in motion which we just learned about. So. From that experience we kind of left that meeting. And I remember driving back to our house it was only about 10 minutes. And I remember thinking it was quiet right away if I should talk to him about what he was thinking. We were kind of just trying to process what that actually meant to do I you I. And without even going through clomid or hormonal treatments or anything like that. And. I think right away I said I don't want to do that. And he looked at me and he said Oh good I don't want to do it either. And I was like oh god thank god it feels that way for us. I think it was just like we were only been married for about a year and a half. We had always thought that this is what it was going to be and we now didn't know what our life was going to be like what we wanted to do with it. And even if treatment was right we were never really anti treatment. We just didn't know if that's what we wanted to do. And we just didn't feel like at 25 we could make that decision. So we kind of decided to just walk away from that at that moment. And so I feel like a lot of people have a difficult time understanding that. So when you tell people that you are not going to go to treatment they don't really know what to say. Yeah. Have you had many. Situations with family or friends strangers and how they react. Yeah I mean that's something that continually comes up. So we put the paws on treatment and we still put the paws on treatment. We haven't really done anything about it. And instead we really try to work on ourselves and on our relationship with each other. And also just figure out I mean honestly do we want to be married to each other. I mean we got married to have a family. So what does this mean now. And so explaining that to other people has been challenging recently in fact we had recently told one of our really good family friends that we were maybe thinking kind of about adoption and immediately what they said was Oh that's so great honey you know you'll finally know what it's like to be a parent you know. I know you guys think you're great dog parents but to parents a kid it's just something totally different. And we came we came home and Kevin was like I know she means well but gosh that really hurt. And so those comments still really hurt in lots of different ways. Being the oldest of children on both sides of the family I mean my brother is 12. He comes up with us he has like little getaways in lots of ways we feel like we're raising him especially with my parents being older we know that we're going to be involved in his lives very differently when they get older as well. And my husband's also a guardian of one of my cousins who has special needs. And so we're also being parents in different ways. And so sometimes it gets difficult to kind of translate the ways in which parenting is not always visible but alternative parenting really does exist. You mentioned the word treatment and having an issue with. Foregoing treatment what's part of that word that doesn't sit well with you. Yeah. I'm I'm not anti treatment and I think I said that a little bit. I mean and neither is my husband. I think for us more so a lot of the narratives around infertility are focused around infertility treatment what treatment people did how people went through and really struggled tried to beat their infertility in lots of different ways. And for us I think that does a disservice to really treating the other issues that kind of surround the experience of infertility itself. We really felt like our marriage had to be a lot stronger and we actually kind of thought it was a good thing not to necessarily be able to get pregnant right away because if we brought a kid into everything it might have just collapsed some things instead of gave us a chance to really work on what we wanted and build a new foundation. But I think treatment also has some connotations where when we go in we do legislation there's a lot of legislation around treatment and advocating for treatment and while that's great and that work needs to be done sometimes it doesn't really make space or options for other sources of resolving your infertility. So the idea that you can choose being childfree and that's a valid and legitimate choice that should be recognized or adoption or surrogacy or other forms of family building. So during this time of not going to treatment you kind of found it as a time to rediscover yourself and to understand now where you are going with your life. What was that like. Yeah. So like I said we stopped me so kind of stops were like weird still pods kind of limbo phase. But we decided to work on our careers and kind of go full forward on that. So I actually ended up enrolling in graduate school and my first initial idea was that I was going to go and learn how to be a teacher and teach writing at a college level. So when I got my master's and during that time my whole plan was kind of like to secretly still get pregnant like I still didn't believe that I couldn't get pregnant so I was just going to go for it without you know thinking about it like that. Two years passed and I was still not pregnant. And then there was this option. What do we do. Should we just stop now. Maybe we can go and do treatment and you can I can teach or do I do something else. And around this time I was starting to do a lot of reading. I was in a queer like Barry Tepic class and I was making a lot of connections between the ways in which your body kind of becomes reoriented. There's a lot of re-orientation scholarship to clear scholarship and the ways in which I felt my own body and my own sexuality be even be re-oriented because of my infertility and because of that I decided maybe I want to continue this and think a little bit more about other ways that people are composing new meanings for their bodies through infertility experiences. So I decided to enroll and get my Ph.D. doing something around what I was trying to call rhetoric's of infertility which took me a while to figure out. But we'll get to that part later I'm sure. Yeah. And then so during this time me you and your husband were also trying to look for a community like a support group for families and couples in that area. Yeah. So that was part of taking this break was to not figure out how to fix us but to figure out how to build the community and fix this marriage that we had together. So we decided there wasn't a support group in our area to run a couple support group. Now this is. Kind of Different. More support groups the one that lives to an also ran. We're mainly focused towards women but we really wanted a space where we can meet and network other people and to really understand what they are choosing how they are going through different options and kind of as a way to figure out maybe what to do. So we started it and it was great couples came out. We developed great friendships with them but slowly it got to be a little bit of a challenge because most will be doing treatment and then it was kind of awkward to figure out how I could be a leader of a group of someone who never did treatment herself. So it was a little bit difficult and a little bit of a challenge but we got through it by kind of networking and allowing other people to come in and talk to that group. And then so what brought you and your husband then to go to Washington. Yeah that was a lot of what brought us to Washington is that I felt like we were running this group and we needed to figure out how it is that we could connect them to other people who had similar stories because we didn't have those stories. So we decided that we would go and try and figure out if there were other people that people in our group could talk to. And so that's how we kind of ended up in D.C. everybody. So you guys met in D.C. at Advocacy Day for the day. So tell me about that. Yes. So I traveled with a friend of mine from my support group and I had heard rumors about Kevin Imrie and these people on the west side of Michigan who were running this group. But I didn't know that they were going to be AVCs it or not. And it turned out that they were. And we all met up and I pretty quickly connected with Maria. We seemed to have a lot in common talking. We realized that we at one point in our infertility journey is both like chopped up all of our hair and I mean like I shaved my head. I it was part of him the impressive grieving the loss of my sister and I just felt like I needed some outside present like again a visual representation that I had changed and I was different and it was a theme for Maria and in some our way so we connected on that and the fact that we were both using creative outlets for our infertility journeys. And it was really pretty incredible that we met up in D.C.. Yeah. And when I met this oh that's Mike doesn't like me. When I met Liz I was really like I said looking for someone to kind of be a support system for me. I have been a support leader yourself lots of times you think oh they don't need their own support systems. But I really connected with Liz with everything she was going through with running her own support groups and then through all the creative outlets that she was exploring through art. I was doing it through creative writing that we just kind of clicked. So this was around the same time that you had your art exhibition back in Michigan. And you after advocacy day there was a little bit of time you actually were able to get there and you got to see this artwork. What what kept you guys coming back to each other like what kept you guys wanting to do more. I mean so I really enjoyed advocacy day. But I was kind of more curious after leaving there to learn more about who this girl was in Jackson Michigan which if you don't really know Jackson Michigan it's like a place you drive through to either go to Detroit or go to Lansing you don't really stop in Jackson. It's not really a go to location. So what you're going to be whole there is this person doing is a huge art exhibit featuring like over 50 pieces of art and stories that she collected while like mourning the loss of her failed cycles and field treatment. So what basically happened is that at that same time I decided finally by the date the last last day I was going to go to that exhibit. So it's about like a two hour drive for me so I scheduled it in and then I decided OK well then I should maybe try and also meet with her. So I was made at like at about four o'clock. The exhibit closed at 5:00 was totally blown away totally. And then I think around 5:30 or so I went to meet Liz for coffee to see and actually have her participate in an interview that I was doing as part of an oral history methodology class tied to my Ph.D. program and she'll take it from there. So we meet for coffee and Marie was pretty much like Well where do you do now the exhibits over and I was like yeah I know that it's over and I really feel like it was effective in not only like my main goal at first was educating my community and bringing awareness my community but it was really amazing about the experience with the way that people who have. Infertility are dealing with infertility use the exhibit whether they participated as an artist or as a person who was interviewed or not use the exhibit as a way to talk to their families about the experiences of infertility. So I was really amazed by that. I don't know why that should have made sense to me I guess but it was not at all clear. So I said to her I don't know like it seems like this is a really great thing and I'd like to continue doing it but I don't really know how. But it was just lucky that Marie at the exact same time was wanting to continue or start actually developing a methodology for collecting oral history. And what would this look like. And so we were like OK well maybe this is something we can do together. So Maria was basically at that point like I'm going to make this the topic of my dissertation and we can work together on this. And it seemed like a good fit. So we just started to do it. So now how did you take. That. Conversation and turned it into an organization that has essentially grown in scope and taking it out of Michigan. I'm going to travel. Yes so I think actually during that oh god that interview I'm not going to look at you. I asked the question. Something about diversity. And do you remember what I asked. She didn't even have to say it. She looked at me and she said well what about. And I said diversity because the first exhibit was very much what we hear and see in the media. A lot of times not so much now but definitely you know five or six years ago was you know the heterosexual white couple or the women who waited too long in quotes to start or start her family which is also a term I hate because I think a family of two is a family. But we just were talking about that and they said issues like you should just go to California and I said yeah why don't I just go to California. So I decided to go to California. And it happens to be that resolve has. They have these walks of hope that are fundraising walks to raise money for infertility. So I made arrangements to go out to California and spent about 10 days between Northern and have other northern and southern California collecting stories and a little pop up exhibit at the walk. And it was a really great experience. Yeah and when she came back I said so how was it at this time we were meeting like in a dorm cafeteria. After I was done teaching and she was on from work and she said it was great. Like I met so many people they had such great stories. I want to go back and I said that's great. But we have no money right now. So what happened is that we've actually found a medical humanities conference that was in Iowa and we decided to go and kind of bring the exhibit there and share some stories. And that was a great kind of moment where we could figure out a way that I could wrap that into my dissertation research and that could also be another way that that project could continue exhibiting and sharing stories. So now this has grown tremendously and you guys have been doing it for the last couple of years and how I met the two of you was even I had heard about it because you brought this exhibit to Seattle and I was at a conference in Vancouver and had heard about this and I was like What am I doing I need to go check this out. And I drove down left the conference a day early which I would do anyway acupuncture conferences are not my thing. And I drove down just to see and check it out. And you guys are really. Essentially given birth to something. And I feel like that's kind of a weird thing to say but at the same time like you guys have been trying to conceive for so long and you kind of did. One of the interesting questions that always comes to my mind just like how do your husbands feel about that. Yes. So we definitely feel like this is something that we can see. You know we can't create a baby but we created our baby nonprofit. We're co-parenting our baby nonprofit. So that's definitely been something that's been amazing for us because we have this really close friendship out of this and we work so closely together and it's been amazing for us. Yeah I mean Lisbon's and I are sometimes just like can you imagine like not knowing each other and immediately we're like no there's no way we're totally brought together and going through our experiences together has been invaluable. But that does. Create not problems but just tension sometimes with husbands because basically we're here because of them too. I mean our infertility. Our infertility experiences aren't just because of us. They're kind of experiences in some ways. And so it's always kind of fun to say hey we're going to go to Philadelphia now just loads and I can do this podcast. See I literally I just moved yesterday and I said See maybe you can come back my office and I just got a text that he did that so he's been a great supportive husband Liz's birth is a very great supportive husband as well. But you know we just try to make sure we can bring him once in a while. We always invite them we always invite them straight but they are very supportive and we can do it without them. There's no way we could do this and it's been so important to our healing. I feel like this without this. I honestly don't know if I would still be married or still be at all coping because it's been that important to me. One of the things we talked about earlier was the word treatment and I feel like there are things about the words that we use around infertility like it not only just struggle but like finding success or battling or like the same thing with cancer these days where suddenly how strong you fight or how strong you battle cancer is going to have a direct correlation to whether or not you survive and it just doesn't seem to add up in my mind and it just seems wrong. Given where the two of you are now. Like how does that make you guys feel. Yeah I think I used to use those words a lot too. But dealing with infertility has really made me think about the words that we use and how we choose to use them. And that's something we're always very careful of and mindful of in the act in the organization. Is that the word we use to matter even something as simple as embryo adoption versus embryo donation. And there are people that use it both ways for different reasons but for us it's very important that we use donation versus adoption for a variety of reasons legislative but also just the idea of redefining success. Just. To say we know you just because you choose another path. Doesn't mean you give I think a lot of times we hear those words you know oh don't stop biting don't give up. And it's really OK to do that. You know sometimes we have. Physical or financial or emotional limitations that don't allow us to reach the initial goal that we had. And that's completely devastating in so many ways. But it's not the only way to find success after infertility is you know having a baby isn't the only way. So we're really interested in looking at the ways that we can redefine success in successful outcomes of infertility and also share those with with others. I think it's a really unique experience. You both have with the support group that you have but you both have been a part of the arts organization and just all the stories and the people that you meet. And I'm curious if there's ever been an issue or a moment of something that you've that has changed your mind. Like after talking to someone after seeing one of their art pieces has any of those moments influenced a change in a decision or a change. Yeah not so much a total change in decision but one of the most things is that we've collected has been the story of a transgender who essentially was preparing to transition from female to male and went to the doctor's appointment that was supposed to be his first appointment to start testosterone injections. So he was supposed to start that day transitioning and was super excited about it and had done so much work to get to that point. And he sat down in the chair and the nurse kind of like nonchalantly handed him a brochure and said Oh you might want to think about fertility and I like having some eggs frozen before you do this like I'm supposed to get the first injection. Like now I can't. So it to us that was just incredible that no one brought that up to him until that moment. And he ended up choosing to delay starting testosterone in order to have the opportunity to free the male so that if one day he decided he would like to present potentially be a genetic parent he could have that opportunity. And so we got to know Cole and his family a couple of years ago and what was really also incredible. His story is that his parents dealt with infertility and it took them a really long time to find him. They actually adopted him as a private domestic adoption and just spending time with them and hearing both of their stories that really hit home to us. The reason why we do this. You know it affects so many people in so many different ways and it's so important that these stories are told that we don't hear as often because. If we don't tell them who is. And I know you know you were telling them and there are other people telling them but it's so important that those become the norm and not just you know the unusual story that we hear. So. Kind of coming back around to a close you guys have. A couple of options ahead of you in terms of your path to parenthood or your path to not Parenthood which is now your choice. What are what are your obstacles like what are the things that are kind of in your way and with helping you make decisions about what to do next. Yeah I think. The path not to parenthood is a little bit difficult in terms of that that life choices and always supported or always easily acceptable. And I think there's some decisions that we're trying to figure out with that but also the path not to parenthood is also exciting I think for Elizabeth tonight as well because it's a chance to really continue this project which we really do feel like we're co-parenting and developing and constantly growing. So it's a different choice for parents. I would say and then also on the other hand though choosing Parenthood also comes at a cost with this project as well and figuring out how it is that we can continue traveling with if we do have a child with us or what that means. On top of the additional stresses we have between the project and then the child and then our husbands as well. How do we balance all that. I think to just continue a life choices. I would say that the same I think that there's a lot of stigma still around people who move on especially who work to don't have children especially those who tried. And you know supposedly really wanted it and they give up again. Choose another path. People it's much better. But I think that that's that's. Although I'm comfortable with that for my family. But I feel like I kind of have age against me at this point too I mean to be 40 in February. And I you know 10 years ago would have thought it would be completely ridiculous to try to have a baby at 40. I'll be honest like and maybe in 10 years I would think that at 50 it's ok where now I'm like no I don't want that for myself. And I think it's great when people do that. If that's right for them but it's certainly not right for me. So I'm feeling the pressure of time now and making a decision about what to do. And what does that look like. You know for for myself for my my family of two home for my art of infertility family not only Marie and Kevin but all of the extended family that we've made over time it's been really incredible and I can't imagine my life any different way. And a friend of mine said recently like talking about her baby like oh it's fine it's all going to be worth it when it's over. And I felt like it's not pretty. It really is already worth it. Like I I wouldn't change it. And I already feel like either way whether I move forward and give treatment warm or try or we move along to adoption. I feel like I'll be ok either way. There are pros and cons to both and I think we'll find find our way. So I normally like to end every interview with asking whoever we are speaking to. If you could link in three to five words just kind of recap. The journey that you've had. How would you explain we've been through. So I only have one word and it would be real re-orientation. I had to really reorient myself to happiness and what happiness is for myself. Well the test that I was really unhappy for a while like when I was first going through infertility and actually just accepting that maybe I'm just going to be infertile and that's that. And that's going to be my body and I'll never experience pregnancy. And that's that's just the path that's laid for it. I was really angry. I was upset and I was not a happy person and my marriage wasn't happy because of that. And eventually I think after meeting people maybe people at advocacy day meeting people through my infertility support group meeting Liz meaning the people to the project. I was able to kind of reorient myself to a new definition of happiness and really be ok with the idea that maybe I won't have children maybe I will. But right now I'm happy. And that's what really matters. And I miraculously came up with exactly three words and they are access to care. I think that that is the most important thing. It is so much harder. Infertility forces you to make a million decisions every step of the way. There's always something to decide. And. If you don't have the access to care that you need to treat your infertility those decisions are made so much harder. It's not just financial it's emotional it's physical. There's still the ways that people run out of resources before they get to a point where they are able to have the family that they want or even just if they move forward without effort without growing their family just being so exhausted and completely drained by the time it's over. But if we have access to care. To make the decisions that are right for us that are informed by our doctors that are recommended. If we can actually have that access to care by having insurance coverage or whatever it is that makes that possible. I think that the journey will be so much easier for everyone. I mean someone with with coverage can go to a clinic and have a baby a year old. A year later where it doesn't always happen of course but that's a possibility. And without that access to care you're looking at years of years upon years essentially. I met a woman the other day who just broke down who said you know we've been trying for so long and we can't even afford to get tested to find out what's going on going on. So I really feel like that's those are the three words that I would. Say. Thank you guys so much. Wonderful. So I want to thank Elizabeth and Maria for coming all this way just to be here. I have so many people to thank for getting this podcast started. I want to thank them. I want to thank Laura for. joining and being on this journey with me. And I want to thank my parents and my family and my friends who are up at the front here who literally I just would not be here without them and they have been so tremendously supportive and have listened and you know one of the reasons that I was sitting in a coffee shop I was telling a Joe’s in Rittenhouse Square the other day and David walks up to me and he's got his headphones in and he's like Steven you're in my ear as of right now. And like aside from the fact that David is Canadian and is probably more advanced than most guys like he's that he's a person I never thought I would reach with talking about this and trying to share these stories. And that's so exactly why I'm here and what I'm trying to do. So I just want to say thank you thank you to my staff who are with me all the way and who help me and to all of my patients and to all of the people who have been willing to let us interview them and are willing to share their stories because it is their stories and it's that's what I'm really trying to get out as much as I can. All right thank you guys. Thanks again to Elizabeth and Maria for sharing their story. If you'd like to find out more information on their exhibitions you can find them online at artofinfertility.org. And if you want to see one of their exhibitions we'll be coming to Philadelphia for the month of November. It's the old city Jewish art center. Check out our Web site at waitingforbabies.com or waiting for babies on Facebook. For more info. To Lauren and Caitlin from Team624communications for providing us with an amazing space we have so much fun doing this live and seeing everyone's reactions to this story. If you have a story you want to tell would be interested in being interviewed on stage in your town. Reach out to us via the contact form on our site and we'll bring the show to you. We'll be back in a few weeks with another interview into the human side of the world and infertility. Till then I'm Steven Mavros. See you next time. This audio features the songs "Bayou Farewell" by US Army Blues and "California Lullaby (Instrumental Version)" by Josh Woodward, all available under a Creative Commons Attribution license.

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  • 00:56:27

    Jessica (A)

    · Waiting for Babies

    Jessica and her husband left the city for a nice house in the suburbs ready for a big family. Getting pregnant initially was easy, but what followed was anything but.  An ectopic pregnancy, surgery, secretly taken blood work and a diary of angry thoughts all came next and put her on a fertility roller coaster she didn't think would end.   Transcript (transcripts are for purposes of searching and are approximations at best) I'm Steven Mavros, this is Waiting for Babies, where we take a deeper look into the very human side of the world of infertility. Being in the fertility field provides you with a unique view into people's relationships. I feel like when my patients are struggling with infertility they're not only going down a road they didn't expect and didn't necessarily want but they're learning things about themselves and about their partners and their friends and their families, they're finding out what they're made of and how much they're willing to go through to get this. One thing that they've been desiring for a long time I feel like today's story brings a lot of that inner discovery to the fold. Today's story comes from an old patient of mine named Jessica and she's rare because she came to me very early in the process. A lot of times as an acupuncturist I'm the alternative so people will go try and get pregnant on their own and it doesn't seem to work and then they seek out help from a physician and they do some treatments for a little while and if that doesn't seem to work then when they look for their alternative they find me. So Jessica was unique in that she actually came to me very much in the beginning a little bit because of her medical history and a little bit because she wanted to get ahead of the game. So this story is going to be a little bit different because it starts right off with a twist right in the beginning because it starts off with a pregnancy. We had decided that we would lived in a one bedroom apartment in the city and had thought about maybe trying to have a baby before we bought a house but decided that we wanted to be settled and that we with friends first and then have the baby. And my periods have been so irregular. Before he got on the pill years and years before that then I came off the pill and maybe was it day 40 of my cycle and truly even though we were trying to have a baby it did not occur to me really that I could be pregnant. And I was falling asleep at 8 p.m. and I was eating three dinners. And I think maybe you should take a pregnancy test like maybe in a few days. So I did. And there was periods like there is actually a longer than just day 28 I'm going to take a pregnancy test. So he got a few more weeks than that because it never occurred to me that even though we trying to have a baby of about you are very. And so I figured this was amazingly easy. This is incredible. So that led to a pregnancy and a routine appointment that just happened to correspond with being a few days after the pregnancy test was like hey by the way I'm pregnant. And she said well we'll do a follow up in the office. And she said Actually you're not but maybe there's something here. The strip is a little bit off. So sent me for bloodwork and at that point realized that the numbers were not where they should be. I thought maybe it was just a miscarriage but when they started going up and down it was clearly an ectopic pregnancy so it was referred to the fertility specialist right away had to go in the next day and they did confirm that it was an ectopic pregnancy and they did. Do they do it. What did they do. Yes. I'll just to confirm that and then I was sent straight to the E.R. for treatment. It was early enough that surgery wasn't recommended or didn't need to be an option so easily treated with methotrexate. So did they explain like what the topic was what that means. They did. Yes. Had you already looked it up or so I apparently am not a very good woman I should use my lose my card because I didn't know what that was but I think that I just feel like women should know about. I don't know all of it but didn't know it but my husband was a physician so he had explained it when we got the bloodwork back and it seemed like it wasn't going well and the doctor had first used the words ectopic and he might have asked the same question you just do you know that is what I always said no. And he was the one who explained that before he got to the office I had a general idea of what to expect. OK. Just so no one here feels like they're also going to lose their woman card. Let me explain an ectopic pregnancy. So normally after an egg and sperm come together for fertilization that embryo floats around the uterus and finds a nice cushy place to burrow in for the next nine months an ectopic pregnancy is when that embryo settles somewhere outside the uterus usually in the fallopian tube and becomes a tubal pregnancy. Now this can be very scary and medically rather dangerous because the uterus is really the only organ designed to hold onto something that will grow larger and larger over the next 40 weeks a tubal pregnancy which is the vast majority of topics can lead to a rupturing of the tube which not only impacts future fertility but the intense internal bleeding can actually be fatal. For women who don't go through fertility treatments many come to find they're having an ectopic but the presence of intense abdominal pain as generally they're not being monitored in those beginning weeks pregnancy for those going through fertility treatments. There are physicians that are monitoring their pregnancy levels will see something fluctuate in the wrong way and that might give them an inkling that an ectopic is happening. Additionally an early ultrasound where they look to see a small gestational sac will tell them whether or not the pregnancy is happening where it's supposed to be in the uterus or if it's somewhere else. Once they realize someone is having an ectopic pregnancy if it's early enough and the tube hasn't ruptured they can end the pregnancy with a medication called methotrexate a drug originally used as a form of chemotherapy. This is administered via injection usually at a hospital in a series of doses until the pregnancy levels start decreasing continuously. Now if this doesn't work or the tube is ruptured the next step the surgery to remove the tube and the growing embryo getting back to Jessica. Hers was early enough that they could use methotrexate. Not like many people. She had a big fear of needles especially the ones that were a little bit bigger than acupuncture. So the nurses were kind enough to wait for her husband to show up before administering the methotrexate. So you do the math or she felt fine felt or felt pretty awful the hormonal rollercoaster we have ever balled so much in my life in few days after that. I found that the checks eight to not be a very fun medication and the dose that it was given and it really messed with my stomach. And so I ended up curled up in a ball for a few days. Again that was the only side effect. I suppose it could have been much worse. But first of all I wasn't throwing up I wasn't that's great. I just was in pain but also physically and emotionally. There is a lot of stuff happening in Iraq. So I went to I went to. A party in my neighborhood who had just moved to a new house. Maybe 20 days before to get a pregnancy test and so met some neighbors and moved in then had this happen. My husband was very encouraging and said it probably good for you to get out of the house and you should go and meet these neighbors and have a nice ladies night out. And I laughed and I was walking home and I slipped on ice and I fell and ended up calling my husband to have him come pick me up a block away because they just couldn't get there and I could not stop crying for an hour. And he truly was like What did you do at the party. This is our new neighborhood way that I started to cry. He didn't know what to expect. He was like people are going to be freaks me when I'm with you. I was like I'll bet you that you just absolutely no control over being able to stop crying. And so that eventually passed. And I remember getting the call maybe six or eight weeks after I had been in the E.R. because I had to go back every Friday to measure HCG to make sure it was going down appropriately. So I finally got the Friday call that you're down to zero you're officially done healed cured. You move on to the next step which will be not for three months because it's not the check that you can do anything. Have a Baby Give your body some time to heal. But after the Methotrexate had ended the ectopic pregnancy she got a call back from the fertility clinic and got some news that now questioned her ability to get pregnant again. They had done some blood work in the way it was explained to me. It isn't entirely reassuring. We were checking your blood for something and I it ran other tests on it. First of all something along those lines. I don't know. Anyway so surprise we found all of these other indicators for hormone levels that are red flags at this point your levels are low enough or high enough that they're yellow flags so that could be some cause for concern moving forward. And it was higher for SH and I don't think Amy to the into that it has at that point was just the high seats. Oh how old were you with this. So Tony 11:31 he had said it's a good sign you got pregnant this quickly as the tears rolling down my face that I'm crazy. Don't cry. It's too good not to be OK. You're young. Doesn't necessarily matter. I care. At that point I had had other sh tests done. And some of them might have been lower. But what I was told was once you have a high FSH in that is the one that defines you essentially. So even if you have other low ones. It's still bad news for you. So that was there but again it wasn't red flag high it was a. So I tried for the summer to get pregnant in maybe three or four months and that didn't work but because of the higher each I've been told that we would be fast tracked on the fertility treatment side given the low probability of low ovarian reserve. Let me take a quick pause just to talk about FSH and what a high level means. So FSH is follicle stimulating hormone. It's a hormone produced by the pituitary gland that has a few functions but in a woman helps with follicular development also known as helping the eggs grow. Now if you check this level in the beginning of a woman's cycle and she is of childbearing age there should be the equivalent of a drop of the FSH to present just enough to coax the eggs within the ovary to grow and start maturing so eventually ovulation can happen. There should be enough eggs around there just a little bit of FSH age can get one of them to grow and to obviously. So following this theory if you check the age and suddenly it's high the inference is that there aren't that many eggs left and it's taking more and more hormone for an egg to start the process toward population. Now fertility doctors have a fancy term for when the procedure is high it is called diminished ovarian reserve. Now it's fine to have a high off age if you're in your mid to late 40s and you're done conceiving and are on the road to mount a pause but it's not so fine when you're in your mid-30s and still trying to conceive. Now I'd like you to keep in mind that having a higher age does not mean you can't conceive and thus needs to be taken in context with someone's age or other hormone levels like their age, AMH their LH and their estrogen levels at the time they take the test. Needless to say for Jessica it was a little scary. So she was very willing to move forward with the treatments that her doctor recommended. So they started with some basic interventions using an oral medication called clomiphene or clomid and doing a few IUIs which we discussed in the last episode. So in the fall we switched to clomid for two months which I love I felt so great on that which most people read. What was so amazing in there is Chinese medicine and for tell you book that I have it I'll find it and show it to you. And it talks about the difference. I have no idea what the word is but just different. Body types and how there's a certain type that responds really well to clomid and do your test to find out which one you are. And sure enough I am the one the doctors up with responding to me but I felt like I had so much energy I felt my hands. I really liked it. So I was like this will solve all my problems because clearly there's deficient in something. This is solving something for brains better. So I'm feeling so much better. So clearly we going to get pregnant and then that didn't happen. And so as I'm sure you know from hearing other stories with each month and with each step higher on the ladder the devastation really not to devastation but the scientists. Each month when it doesn't work out it gets a little bit more and continues to increase. Now everyone has different ways they cope with the struggle of infertility for Jesica. She had found three unique methods to help her cope. The first was knowledge. Yes. Did it. Probably way too much reading which is never a good idea. Right. And the books are what material we're using all of the above. So we go to the bookstore and try to figure out which book I wanted to read by reading them all in the books and then coming home and crying because I was convinced that I would never ever have a baby and that whatever I had was a thousand times worse than what the doctor had explained as being. And that probably wrecked my emotional state even more than other things. The second thing she used to cope with something she'd done for much of her life which was writing in a journal. So I used my journals not as a diary. Here's what she did today. I wrote walking down the street with her and it was very much a. These are all of the things that I'm sad about or angry about are these are the people that piss me off today or I want to punch the pregnant woman I saw when I was walking down the street because I can see something that's awful I hate her. I could see that to most people so writing in the book. Nobody ever see it. Comes in handy. And it's something that I've done since I was in third grade. I mean I've always had a turn on. I was there for that purpose. This is when you I mean this is who I'm angry I it sound like a really mean person in. And then I write and I'm like oh I feel better. That was such a stupid thing to be mad at them for. Of course we're still friends. But wait for it. I never liked that part because then I feel better. So if anyone ever read my diary to see the part where I say I hate everyone which is awful because that's not true. And finally her third and favorite coping strategy was adding a little something to make her laugh. We adopted a puppy along the way because that seems like a thing to do. And so. Probably stereotypically the puppy was maybe this was maybe after the second month of clomid. So it was feeling great. Take the pressure off. You know it didn't take the pressure off but I realized when we got the puppy he was such a fabulous addition to our household. And it was so huge and so much fun when he was playing with the ball and he the first night we got him he fell asleep standing sitting up. I think he was so stressed about this house and he didn't want to fall asleep so we just watched him and he just stood and hit the floor things like that. I was laughing so hard and I realized oh I haven't laughed in a while. This is oh. And truly it was not much of a shock to me to say this is what it feels like to laugh I forgot that I have a laugh so he was really really good in that perspective just to lighten things up and to have just so she had her books her journaling and her puppy. But her initial treatments of clomid and why weren't working after the initial ectopic. Her ultrasounds had shown something didn't look great in her tubes and she had a test that showed there might be fluid building up in one of her tubes. This is referred to as a hydrosalpinx. Now the next step in her treatment was to move on to IVF. And in theory the beauty of IVF essentially takes the fallopian tubes out of the equation because you're kind of going around them you're taking the egg right out of the ovary fertilizing it in a dish and putting it back directly into the uterus kind of skirting the fallopian tube. However recent evidence suggests that the fluid built up in the tubes from a hydrosalpinx could be adversely affecting the environment of the uterus and making it less welcoming to a pregnancy. So before embarking down the road of IVF she and her doctor decided to have surgery to get the tube and its offending fluid removed. This turned out to be a little bit tougher than she thought it would be and because it's just all things decided to have surgery to have my right to be removed. So did that right before Christmas late. So I again thought that it was pretty intense. I thought it was a pretty major surgery. I've since talked to other women who have done it I missed seven days of work. I have friends come over to stay with me while my husband was at work to make sure I was OK. I waddled around do a shower for three days and then I talked to other friends like ya it was really hurt that night and then at work the next day I was a little sore. You might do the same surgery that can be possible. So that was my experience with that surgery. But I know other women who did it who had the same surgery and didn't feel that way. I think that I am just a very sensitive person and it takes me longer to recover from a lot of things and things affect me more strongly than other people. And at this point in my life I recognize that that's just me. I'm OK with that. I'm prepared for that. So for me it was hard but I thought that it would be harder even though it was as hard as it was so they went forward with IVF. I think most people don't realize about IVF. It's just how involved it is and how much it can take over your entire world just keyed into this one thing that kept driving her crazy in terms of the phone. And I think that people who. Haven't gone through IVF. I think that it's just the medical appointments and it's not it's the phone calls and it's the. Insurance industry ordering of the meds and it's the reordering of the meds. And then the meds get shipped to the wrong address and then or they don't leave them but they are on ice and so they can only last for a certain amount of time and they need to track them down and it can take up a full day easily even though it's not in the doctor's office so the amount of time you can get is something that was really unexpected. And it's. Something that I don't think. My husband realized not because he didn't care but because he. Just wasn't there. And if someone had told me Oh it takes out a lot of time I guess you're supposed to do you make some phone calls I get it. But until you realize how long you're on hold for and how many phone calls they are recalling in insurance company about something to find out if a medication is covered in someone and he said he need to talk to this other department here's their number I'll transfer you the whole way the whole way to on hold. Finally got through to somebody and said it's a great question. The. Department you want to speak to is this and she gave me the number it was the first number hit called no. So it's just those kinds of things that. I add to an already stressful situation. And make it really difficult. Was there ever a time your husband took a phone call made a phone call like was he. How was he as part of the process. His work schedule is really really close. And I understand that. And so that was out of his hands. But it meant that he couldn't go to a lot of appointments with me but they were Saturday appointments where I still went by myself because it was his. He could sleep late. He had a very stressful work week and I didn't think that dragged him out of bed for something that I could do on my own. In theory was the best use of his time. It would be better for his health and more being if he could get more sleep. And there were a few appointments that he came to with me and he was so anxious that it made me more anxious. Aventures I don't tell you this is OK on the nights on Saturdays where you were like not just sleep was he like OK. Oh yeah. Oh yea. They were also telling me I was every Saturday and there were times where he would come out to practice after and it would be lovely. But there were mornings where I don't think either of us could justify why both of us should be miserable and get up at 7 a.m. on a Saturday. So they go through IVF dealing with all the many injections appointments many many phone calls. And initially it looks like things are going well. So when we did our first round of IVF they weren't even sure if we would end up with any eggs. And I was on a very very high dose of Follistim trying to remember that. But doctors were thrilled with how successful it was so we got a very nice collection of eggs and we had a very nice collection of embryos and were able to choose from a few of them for which ones we wanted to put back for a D3 transfer. And I just thought these are all great signs in clearly clearly clearly this and that is that the time and come we've done all these treatments and this is in India for us and my pregnancy test was on a Friday and I went to work because it's very close to where I got my Vijaya anyway. So I was already there why not. And my husband went to work and I had I was so convinced I was going to be positive I had actually planned how he's going to share the positive news with him. I got the phone call and had little baby socks that he put in a car and walked down to his office for the summer for her pregnant. And again I have amazing friends who are so supportive and they spent most of the afternoon on g chat with me because there was no way I could do any work. It was just as soon as you know Noon has come those blood results are back in the office they are being reviewed somebody probably already knows what the result is. It is impossible to think about anything else especially for the first round when you don't know what time they call and how it works and instead Jim back to that had you not tested at home. No so because I was afraid of a false positive I was afraid of the wrong result and I figured I don't have the emotional strength to get my hopes up and then find out that that wasn't accurate and also because I had done a home pregnancy test before that didn't lead to it. So I was kind of done with that thought Yeah yeah it really are. And even it was positive it didn't mean that it was going to be successful so I figured why bother. So no I never did for any of my rounds of IVF never peed on a stick at home and even had my doctor ask when I showed up. So did you and did you. I don't do that. I don't I don't really cheat on other things. Nothing nothing at all in life. So after getting ready with her baby socks in hand she finally got the call. It was not positive. And I have never crumbled so quickly in my life and so sitting in my office at work and just. I don't know what the nurse on the other line said but I think was like Are you sure if this is their mistake. Interesting. I don't know how to tell you. It's not positive. You aren't pregnant. Like what. What's the next step and say you can call the office on Monday and schedule an appointment for a follow up and that's all I remember from that conversation and hung up the phone and called my husband sobbing and I think he was also expecting it to be positive and so managed to text to some friends who live who lived who worked in offices close by. And again amazing friends make all the difference which is part of the reason why it's great to tell people if you don't tell people they can't support you. But they were in it with me and she was like I'm leaving my office now I'll be there in 10 minutes. Tell me tell me where to go. And I had emailed my boss who knew what was going on. Super super support support. But I told her I think I'm going to have to head home early now. And she came down the hall and knocked on the door and I was in tears and she's like OK I know what this means. You don't have to say anything. Clearly this isn't because you have a happy announcement right now. You are here at this hour and I don't think I've ever come so close to hyperventilating or truly just not being able to function. Absolutely hysterical. It was the worst news I'd ever gotten which looking back on it now is makes me a very lucky person that I haven't had something at that level or more that was so devastating. But my coworkers drove me home out to the suburbs and dropped me off and as I was in the house awhile before my husband came home and he was to get a lot of meteors out. But it was a Friday afternoon and it was cold and it was Hasn't home. He came home and he was sad. He was handling it better than I was. And then the next day was Saturday and I didn't not get off the couch and I don't remember which show I watched all of for the day if it was down to an RV or lost or something. I'm watched every single episode and then from another show I watch everything. What is it about. And by Monday I went back to work. So I was functioning. And I think it didn't take that long and if I hadn't burned my journals I mean Bill to tell you if this is accurate or not but it was already on to thinking about the next round. Getting a negative result on the first round of IVF I feel is particularly devastating because it's the first time you go through this superintends process and you just assume that with all that effort all this technology and all this help that things will work out in the barn you get that negative it really throws you a. It also makes you question everything from previous decisions you've made. The medications that you took even the doctor that you've been working. But we ended up getting a second and third opinion a fourth opinion which I felt very guilty about because I thought so highly of my reproductive under monologist and. I thought the world of him and he had been really great. So finally felt OK with doing that that with a few other doctors and ended up after all of that staying with my doc. Do you feel like you got good information like it. It made you feel going back to the first was a good option. Some of the concepts are better than others. Some of them I was really not impressed with which had the impact of making me feel really great about my doctor I already felt great about so that part was fine. And then some of the other ones we said if we're not going back to the same place this would be our second choice we really like the doctor. We had good conversations with him and even brought some things back to talk to my doctors and say what do you think about this is what somebody else recommended and did your doctor know that you were getting a second. Yes. Because I don't see at all now that this is what we're doing. Please don't take it personally. Did you take it personally. No not always like you should do that. So they pushed forward and went ahead with their second round. So the second one was also very similar to the first I think we have similar number of. A similar number of embryos did a D-3 transfer again and for that time my husband took vacation from work. So we were together the day that I got the phone call. So we we were there in an interview and we were Panic's together and the phone rang and we got to the doctor's office. So it's like I was in surgery. And then at this point I know the nurse in the office so well and so she called to say good morning. So I was like What do you mean you can use is a good news you're pregnant. Congratulations that works. So. This is amazing. The blood test all looked great. So I remember getting there. It was actually at the high end her one of them and we had put two embryos back so there was some question there. Hi HEG. Maybe both of them implanted. We don't know and went for the ultrasound and I went by myself because my husband had to work and they had said that your numbers look great. We'll see you for the routine ultrasound. Everything looks good. Nothing changes you feel any differently. It isn't that I had any cause for concern and so I went for the ultrasound. So like your numbers are just the congratulations they did for you. So I started doing the ultrasound and then I went to the doctor came in he said see what we might see today and that will probably be either one or two even. Is it possible that your heart beat at that point in six weeks. Namely that whatever it was. So do the ultrasound and there's just silence on his and just absolute silence that goes on and on and finally said You have to say something or say please say something. And he said I'm not seeing what I hoped to be seeing. And still at that point they kind of obviously started to cry and. I can't remember. What he said next. He said I see something but it's not what I want to be saying. So I think it may be ectopic and I'm going to send you to the E.R. to get a better ultrasound. So like I've been through this before I came back to the E.R. the simiar for any type of pregnancy the same thing. And I had forgot my phone at home that day. What are the chances I'm going to have a cell phone. He's my husband so he's able to use the phone in the doctor's office and he poor guy was expecting twins or who knows what it would be. And instead he gets me bawling at 10 a.m. on a Friday morning and saying it's done it's for not having a baby it's not going to work. And so he was able to have a colleague cover all of his patients that day and just cover for him and he just left working him to the E.R.. To be with me which was awesome. So that was very very helpful. And that wasn't as devastating as the first round it didn't work out because we had had two weeks of being really excited and very well. Talk a little bit about I don't know if we talked about names but just to refer to the baby or the baby and I go I'm hungry. We're all hungry now. So we have those two weeks of really being able to play with that and have that and truly happy because we didn't know anything else at that point. And also just the knowledge that it worked to that even when I got news percentages that weren't 90 percent of what we say that they were going to be the 90 percent possibility for me that. It still works. And if it could work this time maybe it could work again. And so I still had a lot of hope even though it didn't work. So I only had one fallopian tube after that point because the other one had been surgically removed already from the hydro cell pings before we did IVF. So choose to treat with Mother Trixy again because I definitely definitely was not going to give up my only fallopian tube. I wasn't ready at that point. The only problem was this time. We were much further along. So my HEG numbers were much much higher. So it's going to take longer to come down and I was below the cutoff because there is a cut off at which point you can't do it anymore. So I was getting close to that but wasn't there. So we still do. So did the Methotrexate went to a bar after Actually it looks like they can drink now and randomiser. So my husband's friends met us out in the last. Time he wasn't the first think it was probably for the follow up a say a few days later I saw my hospital band on and we went to the bar and his friends met us from NPR. And so I had a glass of wine and then had a second glass of wine and I went to the. Bathroom and I'm here know I was in the bathroom and my husband's friends. Should you be drinking that much. That's. Kind of. You say Oh sorry I forgot to tell you when and why it didn't work out. All of those things. I I'm just. Like I'm so sorry. But she was on her way to be a horrible mother. So that's true. I get her to do the time they had the first dose the next one is every year how many the leader went back for that. And then it was this had to do the weekly monitoring and get the same reaction the like did you react the same way. Yes. It's miserable. And then. Everything was coming down. And got the call on Friday that had actually gone back up. Which is horrible that's not what you want because it means it's still growing somehow. So talk to me Doctor. Five o'clock on a Thursday afternoon. And at that point it was do we do more rapid Trixy. You were kind of reaching the lender for how much methotrexate we want to give somebody or you could do surgery and that was a really I knew since I now say we need to schedule the O.R. for tomorrow morning and my scheduler is leaving you need to decide what you want to do. So we decided we're going to give it one more try. From the Trixi and went back to the E.R. The next day and got me through around the Tranxene for that topic pregnancy and then we let her make the next day to go to Canada. And I was the worst vacation of my life. I don't recommend that people get the care that. She got. I don't get mother to say it's not because you were called to be. Yes. And then we had to wait another three months because of the taxi. So that pushed us back. So you know I was tweeting about movies all day and then it resolves on its own. How many weeks or a month later. Back to zero. We did three months and then were able to start again after the first topping. Did someone tell you that topics were the more likely were that a higher likelihood. That's a great question. So I very specifically asked my doctor is like how is this possible doing looking at anatomy like so one is this way. What is it. What are the chances. One was a I hate the word natural consumption but one was that way and then the other one was for IVF and he's a you have the worst luck in the world. That is really what it comes down to you get to play the lottery because of the odds of this happening. You know anything can happen which also helps. I was in a very weird frame of mind at that point of odds and percentages and is it going to work is it not going to work even if it's low. It could still work out like you could have one in a million odds and things can happen this is great news for me because I'm really good about my jobs moving forward because you know this will never happen. It can still a so they done two rounds of IVF and just to had some encouragement to move forward knowing that at least her body knew how to get pregnant at her high office age wasn't holding her back. And seemingly had plenty of eggs that she could work with. Everyone processes these losses and events differently at this point Jessica was in it all the way. She was on what I call the IVF rollercoaster and was ready to hold on for dear life till it finally gave her the result she was looking for and thus was very willing to move forward. Her husband seemed to be a little more on the fence as to what the next step should be. Did you at any point pause and say do we really want to keep doing this like was there ever a moment where we were like maybe we need to not keep going. So maybe there is a moment like that and I say maybe because I'm guessing that my husband felt that way and I don't think I ever picked up on that. So we might have had conversations where he thought he was saying that and I didn't hear that at all. And we talked a little bit about adoption and how he wanted to spend our money and we're going to have to pay for the next cycle and we skipped that and I had reached out to friends who had adopted and got a lot of information and was doing a lot of research in terms of looking at specific websites and what the application forms were and ready to go down that route. That's what we chose to do and he did not want to do that. So a lot of that research on my own says he didn't want to do that. I assume that that meant that the next step would be another round of IVF. So we talked about it. And I think I continue to have appointments with my doctor to check it out. I mean he took few months off and then had another appointment and so got the OK from him to move forward with IVF. And based on somewhat I say that was I think for a start it was going to be a pretty quick decision for me to order the meds and start. And so I think I might be remembering this incorrectly but I am pretty sure I had a doctor's appointment. I came home and said to my husband like I'm going to the masseuse for good to go we got the all clear and his response was is overwhelming as I had thought it would be I think I was more excited at that point which should have been a red flag but I attributed it to his nervous. This is probably our last chance. This is stressful. If it doesn't work I want to give him a space that won't press that. So we didn't talk a lot about it. And so I started the third round and it was it was going well and I think using acupuncture for that one actually it was going really well. And he came home one night and we've done couples counseling at that point I don't remember but came home one night and he said we need to talk. I don't think I want to have a baby. So what are you talking about. Can't you see you don't have a baby. This is our dream. We want to have a baby. And he said it about the way we all say don't think that we should be married anymore. I think we should get divorced so we're going to get divorced and he's like we aren't going to do an embryo transfer like I am not going to participate in this meeting for him. And so at that point I was like OK we're straße we need to do couples counseling we'll get through all of this. So I was thinking we would still fertilize the eggs because frozen embryos have a better slightly better rate of success than just the frozen eggs. You were the doctor you know. So it was maybe five days away from reaching that point three days early for retrieval. Was it before or after you had injected yourself for the ninth day. Oh it was before. Yeah. And at that point I was doing my own nightly injections because was so he had been doing most of that except then was sleeping through the morning once in a while slightly passes as if I'm not going to wake you up I'll do it myself and if I give it to you I'll have to give yourself an injection after you guys were having this conversation probably me myself because I wasn't really in the middle for a few days away from you. But I might have been able to do those myself because those are just some new ones. So I think that the person is probably the most shops of anyone that I told would be my reproductive technologist the next day when he is just out and counting the follicles and the like so we need to talk about alternatives to D-3 transfer said D5 transfers. No no not that kind of Mulhearn it out maybe freezing rates. And he was like OK we can talk about that but why is it. Well my husband does have a baby. Oh my God. He doesn't want to be married either. So stop talking let me finish the ultrasound and then we will and then we'll discuss. So again they were amazingly supportive and his office scrambled to get me the details of. How that would change the price of what the procedure would be and. How things would be different. I was the one who asked what about a freezing that would be a great day you should do that. So that's what we do. You guys were I mean like the basic question is did you see it coming. So that's a very fair question. That's a great question. In hindsight yes definitely at the time I don't know if I was just blind to what was there and they didn't want to see it or if I was so focused on dealing with having a baby and all the issues that came from that that I truly didn't see. So I don't or I don't know that was a reason why he was acting where the communication was because of this like large factor that's in the early. And of course looking back on it there were other factors. This isn't what broke up our marriage. I think that we are much much better at not being married and we're probably I don't know what he's doing now but I hope that he is much happier as well I hope that he's as happy as I am and not being married to him was good for our future. And I think I can guess he probably feels the same way but it wasn't just this that broke it up I think it help speed it up and people say Oh see everything happens for a reason. It's a good thing you have a baby. And I used to be one of those people that said everything happens for a reason. I talked earlier about wanting to punch people in the face in person but now when people say my I'm going to have to hold back because I really want to do this and I'm not just going to say things don't happen for a reason that's not how you justify a horrible pain in people's lives. I think we're very resilient human beings are human beings are very resilient. And so when bad things happen we look for a way to rebound. And in doing so we see silver linings and then people can take that to mean you know see this is what was meant to be all along look at how happy you are but it's not that bad because it is an outcome of it which are two very different things. So I'm glad I was able to learn that lesson with the doctor the first person you told about you guys getting is I think are the second. Did you hold that back from friends for a little while just to make sure it was for you. Yes. It was a pretty quick process. That was the end of February middle to end of February that he first said the words I think we should get divorced and then we had a few couples counseling appointments. They were making progress and he was a we are making progress. Nothing that is going to be said here is going to change my minds. If you want to go because it helps you process it I will keep going. Know if you want to keep spending the money for that purpose then we can keep going but nothing's changing. All right. Well that seems like a waste of time. So I already have my own therapist. We go together. And by the by late March we had filed for divorce. So who filed paperwork. I did actually. Did you win. Yes. Because I wasn't the one who initially requested it. If. It wasn't so much the filing. It was weird it was to see my name as the plaintiff that was here. So I'm not. Seeing him as a defendant like I was going after him which was untrue. But in that way I also was very clear my head. I don't want to be married to someone who doesn't want to be married to me. So. Anything that we had been so sad for so long. That it. Just seem like okay this can't be any worse. So Jessica went through a retrieval and was able to freeze her eggs and still has them now if she ever needed them. After that as you'd expect her life began to change in the way anyone's would going through a divorce. And as anyone who has been through it already. I love that beginning time after getting divorced can be intense and tumultuous and make people do things they never thought they would. Jessica sold her house in the suburbs and was preparing to move back to the city. She never thought she'd move back to. In between she had an idea for escape and piled up her vacation time and spent the month in Spain and reconnected with a part of herself. She hadn't seen in a long time so I love being married and I came back from the scene of questions like 12 hours a nice transition is a good way to start my new life and to have that month away and to meet people and I did our Spanish classes set up with the school and met a lot of amazing people through there and surprisingly but probably not surprisingly there were a lot of women there really. So I just got divorced. I just recovered her long term boyfriend stories while we go to the discotheque. So it's time to just for the first time in 10 years. I'm going to order a train. This will be great and I'm not going to care about anything. What was it like to be single. It's going to in. Yeah yeah it was kind of exciting. How exciting is it would be for other people watching the movie like a long way to go to get back to the normal social scale. But but for me it was very exciting and very fun had a good time. So it's been what six years five years and it's basically the start in terms of the almost six years. Yes. Where are you with your husband now. Thirty six years. Yes. You have eggs in the back. Correct. So to speak I. Is the thought get married again have kids again have you. Is that something you're avoiding thinking about are you on it. What's your so I'm not necessarily opposed to getting married again. I wouldn't rush into it. Certainly. And it's not something I'm looking for. I'm open to it but not seeking it out. And I'm very very happy with how things are right now and I really like my life and something like I'm a sucker. You think your marriage has a boring life but very very happy with how things are. And then in terms of having a baby I think it was for survival purposes I had to find reasons to. Justify that not having a baby was OK. So I spent a lot of time looking for all of the reasons that life without a baby is good. And I did that. As a temporary fix except I convince myself so well that I truly believe all these reasons now about why it's better to not have a baby than to have one. And so now I get baby announcements like oh that's too bad for you. I'm sorry you're really missing out. I'm going to go to sleep for ten hours and nobody is going interrupt me and my friends who have babies I'm sure would. Probably say that since I am alone and you don't have a baby and you don't get to witness all these things but to each their own. And there are different ways to be happy in life. And for right now this is what's working for me and I used to be very much a planner. Probably goes along with the not cheating. And. I had everything planned out I got married and we bought a house and then we were going to have a baby and we are going to live happily ever after. And even the best laid plans can still go up in smoke. So what's the point of planning so I don't know maybe I'll have a be maybe I won't but it's not going to be tomorrow. So beyond that I couldn't tell you. I know I'm not. I know I'm not interested in having a baby on my own. And I know I'm not interested in having a baby tomorrow. And I know I'm not looking for somebody for the purpose of having a baby with them. So aside from those things whatever happens I'm kind of OK with me. And it's really fun and exciting. So I've been in this field for a while and this was a unique story even for me. That's one that's always stood out. So few have ended either way you're just as a problem. Yes. Like literally like again to other people around you for free for all that everyone else in the world besides me Will course really. The fact that it happened which is a fertility doctor see Blake be like oh you guys are definitely getting divorced. Oh no he didn't say that. I just think that he was very surprised at this and at what point. Did you not see this as something along those lines you think was this clear to him. But I guess if I'm honest with myself about this so I will bring everything full circle. I said that I'm not the poster child for infertility because my first round of IVF didn't work. My second round of IVF was ectopic and my third round of IVF ended in divorce. So I don't think anybody wants the other poster child for Tiriel our dad were out running around. Those. Steps. Waiting for Babies is produced by me Steven Mavros us with help during interviews by Laura Mullin. If you want to find out more about the stories and what we're up to check out our Web site at waiting for babies dot com. And if you really like what you hear and feel so inclined go to our site and click donate and consider giving us even just five or ten dollars to help us keep working on. This is a passion project for me and every little donation allows me to take a little bit of time away from the practice and spend more time telling these amazing tales. Also on our site if you have a story you want to tell and are willing to add your story to this conversation. There's a form on the website awaiting for babies dot com slash contact. This is Steven Mavros. See you next time. We got another bonus for you at the end here. Throughout the interview you may have heard Jessica talk about how she burned her journals and we were so curious about how that happened. So of course before we let her get away we asked what it was like was it a bonfire on the beach a trash can in the living room with the fire alarm going off. What was the pyre like when you finally decide to burn. What did you do with the ritual. So it was spread out over a couple of instances because he made a point of reading all of them before he burned them. And my fear because I only write mean things to me was that I was going to die insane and somebody was going to find them in my storage unit and be a horrible person and I would have no opportunity to address people with that memory of me everybody. So I was genuinely afraid of that. So I started reading them. I had gone to my parents house and they have an outdoor firepit and keep in mind I was a mess by the time I arrived there I had just sold my house had just gotten divorced. I was physically and mentally exhausted and I read through a bunch of them and then it's like I'm going outside and you won't see anything so like ripping them up and I'm just throwing them in the firepit and it's windy and flaming are in the air and my head must have looked out the window and thought she has lost my mind whatever she has just been through has set her over the edge. I can't even imagine what they think you should get their perspective on that. Finish them all. We bring up free speech and take them away. And then in my first apartment when I moved back into the city I did have a working fireplace so I bought all of them and then I burned them in the fireplace in slightly more of a ceremonious way and that I wasn't completely looking like it was me. Was the reply for the privacy of my home on a Saturday morning. It was like I was having a fire in the fireplace and it just happened to be burning people inside. So I actually felt really good burning them and I was like other people who are horrified that I destroyed those records. But it was just it was bad things. It was bad. It was everything it was so negative and I didn't want that. Aside from worrying about dying and having other people find them but just didn't want that in my apartment. That part is done and I learned lessons from that. I've embodied those lessons and taking them with me and I don't need that in down anymore and I might regret that in 20 years but so far I've been very very excited about that decision. This audio features the song "Lullaby for a Broken Circuit" and "Interlude 4" by Quiet Music for Tiny Robots, "Readers, Do You Read" by Chris Zabriskie, "Running Waters" by Jason Shaw, "She Lost Her Wings (Instrumental Version)" and "Tick Tock (Instrumental Version)" by Josh Woodward, all available under a Creative Commons Attribution license.

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  • 00:42:19

    Navid Moazzez on Creating And Monetizing Virtual Summits

    · Sales Funnel Mastery: Business Growth | Conversions | Sales | Online Marketing

    In this episode, I interview Navid Moazzez, who is known as THE go-to guy if you're creating a virtual summit to increase your credibility, exposure, email list and most importantly, revenue. We get deep into why virtual summits are just as good as writing a book, exactly how to set one up for your business, and several different monetization strategies you can use to maximize the profit you make from your summit.   Regardless if you want to create a summit you should listen to this episode, as MANY of the topics we discuss are easily transferable to various areas of your business!   Resources Mentioned * navidmoazzez.com *virtualsummitmastery.com/cheatsheet Want To Work With Me? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey guys, Jeremy Reeves here with another episode of the sales funnel mastery podcast and today I have a very special guest on the line, his name is and you might have to correct me here, Navid Moazzez. Navid Moazzez: Wow, that is pretty good like molasses. Jeremy Reeves: Like almost like molasses but Moazzez. So Navid he is, he is an interesting guy. So he is kind of recent into this. He got started in 2014 and built his business really, really quickly. He basically -- he specializes in showing people how to promote and profit from their own virtual summits. So you have probably heard me in the bunch of different summits. I just saw him last week (inaudible 0:47). So Navid, he is the guy to go to if you are going to you know, promote one of these or host one of these and he shows you how to essentially maximize it, get the most opt-ins out of it, get the most profit out of it and grow really quick. It is basically what he did to build his own business showing other people how to do this really quickly. So then you can find him at navidmoazzez.com and I will put a link in there obviously because it is a little bit hard to spell. So the link will be in the show notes as usual. So Navid, welcome to the show. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, thanks so much man. You know, I remember (inaudible 1:26) you for my first summit, the branding summit in 2014 and since then you know, I -- obviously been seeing you. My business took off a little bit since then so you know I got to thank you publicly here for being part of that because that was really you know, my call to fame so to speak, even though you know, correct you a little bit, I started out with my blog like 2013 but it was not really a business until I did the summit late 2014 I think, it really skyrocketed to you know, (inaudible 1:54) 6-figure business and grow my email list rapidly as well. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice, yeah. I remember you reaching me out, reaching out to me to be on that. I remember doing that whole you know, that whole thing, it went really well for you, you know, obviously. So yes, I guess you know, go into, go a little bit you know deeper with some of the things you have done and you know, I know you have been kind of talk about all over the place anymore, I see your name coming up more and more as a kind of you know, doing various things online you know, you seem show up -- I see your face a lot more often than I was you know, year ago. So tell us your story a little bit you know, how you got started and I know you have kind of briefly just deep into it, but -- Navid Moazzez: Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, as I mentioned, I started out in 2013 pretty much after a really horrible -- something that happened to my entire family when my brother passed away and I have been talking a lot about starting my online business you know, like even since 2012, I got a mentor and you know I started reading a lot of books and you know finding out about this whole community of online business owners you know (inaudible 2:58) entrepreneurs and then in 2013, you know after this happened to my brother, I was just okay now, I really have to get started. I have been talking so much about it and I simply since I did not really have any expertise I mean a law school dropout so I did not really have that much in terms -- I did not want to talk about that at all you know in business you know I was kind of depressed by not doing that much (inaudible 3:22) in my law school studies. I decided after you know, starting my blog you know, a few months into it that I would simply just talk about my entrepreneurial journey like (inaudible 3:32) people like Pat Flynn (inaudible 3:34) in the beginning just to get more experience. I was just interested in these topics like how they built their business and then I heard a lot of people say to me, Hey Navid you got to start a podcast and you know John Lee Dumas had something to do with this like I was in his community initially and you know, he had his podcast that is going well, I thought okay this is going to take my business to another level too and I did that, build great relationships you know that was always good but it did not grow, my email (inaudible 4:03) and I did not generate a lot of cash flow in my business a lot of revenue, so I have to kind of -- I think it was in spring 2014 or so, I was like thinking about okay, how can I you know, get my business to another level. When I started seeing this virtual summits or virtual conferences popping up all the time, kind of the health industry, I saw a few in online marketing space and I decided to kind of go all in you know, I did not have any experience just like when I started my site with doing interviews. I did not have experience there, so I decided to learn how to set up all the tech. How to go about you know, interviewing people for it and how to structure you know, kind of relevant for you guys like the funnel, like how to actually maximize the summit itself and then I launched it in November 2014 you know with -- you know before that I had like thousand people on my email list you know, after 18 months of hard work and then I did the summit, you were there Jeremy and a lot of people as well and it just took off like I got about 3000 people signed up for it and $20,000 in profit, build some amazing relationships with all these people and then people in my audience you know, how I got into teaching people about this. They asks me question about like how did you do your summit. How did you get speakers on board. How did you promote it and that was just my aha moment, okay maybe I should create a pilot program around you know, create (inaudible 5:32) profit from virtual summits and that is kind of what got me to this point like taking my business just took off after that (inaudible 5:39) getting clients, getting results for them and then launching my flagship program, virtual summit mastery. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, yeah, I love it, I love it. So it is kind of the you know, then it kind of happens a lot of people in business you know, you try something, and it works so well then you teach other people you know, how to do this -- Navid Moazzez: Yeah, I mean, as I said to you like, I did like the branding summit kind of like now that I think back, I would not fully have done like a branding summit, it was good, it was like, I think my (inaudible 6:07) 88 speakers on there and if you are thinking about doing the summit, you do not need like 88 or like (inaudible 6:12) on recently though (inaudible 6:14) it is just crazy that (inaudible 6:16) I did not want to break the Guinness World Records so they are like at 65 hour live stream or something and then like total 100 interviews which is just crazy, you do not need that but that is a hook if you are doing more broad topic like (inaudible 6:28) you have a lot of different topics within there, I did the branding summit but I could have broken that down into potentially many different topics like public speaking, create online courses, list fielding, sales funnel, whatever that would be and then have like only experts on these topics and that is probably the (inaudible 6:45) I would go today. Let us say I want to position myself around sales funnel or whatever I would do a summit around that and that is you know, also like, I positioned myself as a virtual summit guy and that is so much more specific than being (inaudible 7:01) personal branding strategist if you know what I mean you know. I make way more money because I am bringing niche in specific. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely, definitely. So before we get in the summit like the you know, the exact like okay, you know, here is step 1 and step 2 that kind of thing. Most entrepreneurs everybody listening to this you know, the is always so many things on our to do list you know, we have to do this, we have to do the next thing, the next project you know, a month away, the one after that is like you know, 6 weeks away whatever. So what would you tell us if someone had said, hey, you know, like why should I do this you know, how is this actually going to help me when there is 85 billion other things that I can be doing. What is the reason I should be doing this one. Navid Moazzez: Yeah man, I can just tell you from like someone is starting out I mean, I had like a decent -- I mean I have like 900 or 1000 people on my list so I can just tell you from that experience like pretty much starting out, you can expect to grow your list by a few thousand people with doing a summit. I grew my list with around 3000 people and that was just my first summit, getting $20,000 in profit and that enabled me to quit my job and move abroad and get this freedom whatever that is to you. You definitely get you know, decent success, even if you are just starting out and like, like create fans I mean I have some people on my list but they turned into (inaudible 8:19) lifelong customers you know. I have a lot of those people who got in for my summit who purchase let’s say I promote an affiliate product. I promote my own courses and they buy into that and then also how you leverage the summit afterwards is the key like you can let’s say after what I did I -- you know, not only like move abroad, started travelling more. I became an affiliate for let’s say Ramit Sethi I promoted him in January of 2015 just a month afterwards and you know became his number 1 affiliate you know, built a relationship with him just from doing my summit having a decent size email list of 3500 people managed to become his number 1 (inaudible 8:58) you know, many other big names, they have much bigger email list than me. So that is something you can do (inaudible 9:04) $40,000 in sales in January 2015 from this small email list which is kind of crazy looking back and then getting featured on the sites like Business Insider, you know, getting a lot of views and subscribers from there, because if I just sat down and like, okay, my summit was a success and just thinking I am not going to have to do any work after it. The summit is just the beginning. It is just like getting people in and then you need to leverage the summit because now you might have something to share with people I mean I have you know, great success with it and then getting featured on other publications. This is also something I have seen not only me, but also from clients, there are, you know, seeing a lot of things happened afterwards. Getting featured on podcast. Getting more exposure as you mentioned. You see me more frequently now popping out, I mean, that is -- you know, the reason I got you know, the exposure from this summit. I need it to take my business to the next level. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. And you know, I was thinking, as you were saying that, it is very similar to why you would write a book you know, you do it for the credibility, you do it like you do not use the book to make money I mean, people that you know, do it and a broke do that you know, really, you write the book to get the exposure and get the credibility and then you know, also like to help build your email list that kind of thing and then you use that like it is the spring board to then build your list. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, for sure. What I love also about virtual summit is that you do not really have to be the expert. I will share to you (inaudible 10:30). For me, I was not really, I mean I was having some experience with online marketing (inaudible 10:34) before I did a branding summit but I was not that expert. People really called to me, I mean, I still struggle before my summit and I just was like, I researched, like interview these people and brand myself association. I did not have to be the expert, I just gathered those people together on this amazing event and like you know feature them there and then people started to trust me more. It is just like, I was seen next to Neil Patel, John Lee Dumas, you were on there, and a lot of all other people as well and they just leverage my brand moving forward. That is one way why you would do it or it can be the other side of the spectrum like (inaudible 11:10) all this self publishing success summit. I helped them with, you get almost 30,000 opt-ins or you know, and he also got beyond $70,000 in revenue. That is like, if you already have let’s say a 6-figure business, you want to do the summit around your topic of expertise. In his case, with self-publishing to get people into a high-end program and at the end of the funnel. So you are getting people first maybe to sign up for free and then get them on for double access pass that might be $97 and then at the end of the summit, you sell them on your high-end program and that is what we did to kind of maximize the virtual summit there so we are getting like $120,000 in sales for just the summit itself like double access pass and then an additional $200 some thousand on his course which is yesterday a fantastic way if you already have a business, you have courses and you do a summit to kind of market your course and get people in there. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. That is pretty impressive 30,000 people you know. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, 30,000. I mean I have 12,500 on this list before we did the summit and now every time I see something on Facebook what they are doing, they are always hiring. They did -- I think last year, $1.5M in sales and now it is just growing very rapidly for them because (inaudible 12:23) 12,500 on their list and now they have over 100,000 with facebook ads and so on because they got a lot of the people who promoted his summit. They also now (inaudible 12:33) to promote this course because they saw them out of success and the amount of value they are providing during the summit and just an easier way to get people kind of to start promoting you as you know, if you have speakers, but also other partners because it is such a great event you know, you are promoting something for free and then you can still make money on the backend. Jeremy Reeves: I love it, I love it, yeah. There is a lot of -- there is a lot of -- I have a concept called Newton’s Trade (inaudible 12:59) it is kind of like you do one thing and it moves several different things throughout your business you know versus like -- Navid Moazzez: I love it. It is just like -- imagine you are promoting a free event and you see, okay, it is not like the biggest thing for you know, big influence, say okay, you got to promote this, you are going to make $50 per sale, but let us say, you have something in the backend, now we are talking about someone who you know, during the summit, they have 6 to 7 figure business and they have like already applaud where they can make you know, up to maybe $500 to $1000 per sale then now we are talking. They can make a lot of money from just promoting this free event because there is a course in the backend that is converting well, you know what I mean. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you know, it is -- so I have never done one of these. So this is actually coming from someone who has never done it. You know, when I am thinking about it and it is like okay let’s start a virtual summit whatever in April right. You know, we are recording this on March 28. So, in my head right now, I am thinking, oh my God, this has to be a ton of work, you know. Talk about a little bit like, what are kind of -- some of the steps that you have to do to actually get it done and some of the ways that you help people kind of reduce that overwhelm. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, I think there is something to it that is like, if you want to do a summit (inaudible 14:20) exposure and we are talking about like getting great results from it, you have to keep in mind that you should not start the summit. You should not say okay, I am going to do summit in April and it is March right now. Probably you want to have a lead -- you want to have a lead up time honestly like if you want to do it well -- for (inaudible 14:37) is a really big summit. I just mentioned you just have about 2 months to do it because we have a decent team but it was still pretty stressful to do everything. We could have probably done more honestly to get you know, you get better results than that, but we did not have I would say to someone who has like experience with online marketing, you know your tools and so on, you can probably do it in around 3 months or so. If you have like a total newbie, there is a lot of things to learn. I would say I am just going to be honest like give yourself a 3 or 4 months lead up time and if you are thinking about it like you need to build relationships with people in order to you know get people not only on board for a summit, that would mean get them on as speakers, that is one thing, but also may be even getting them on board to promote the summit to their most valuable asset which is the email list and if you are only getting them on board in order to promote it feels very transactional you know, if you are building the relationship in one earlier stage where it is like okay you are adding value because you do not really expect anything in return then it feels more natural at least I like this approach better because I build relationship now for quite a long time. So if I would invite you on a summit Jeremy it would be more natural for you to say yes because I have been you know, we have been talking over you know, I have been on your podcast now and so on. It is just easier to get people on and also get maybe even to promote to their list if you know what I mean there. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely, because I can even imagine you know, I mean, I even do it on podcast and stuff, I mean there is a difference. I can see a difference in terms of who promotes it like how well they promote it you know, like some people just do not do anything, some people will you know put like you know, and I am talking about like guest on my podcast. Some will just put it on whatever Twitter or Facebook whatever their social media thing is. And then other people will blast out their whole list sometimes several times and usually the people who do that, I have already have the relationship with, I already know them. Navid Moazzez: Exactly. Jeremy Reeves: Yes, I can see that. Yeah, because I mean, you know, a huge part of the success I would imagine, you can correct if I am wrong, comes from your guest promoting it you know because -- Navid Moazzez: If you are new to this and you do not have like maybe you do not a lot of contact list in the media or something like it, yes, you will rely quite a bit on the speakers and also maybe if you are getting some promotional partners (inaudible 17:02) speakers I would say, but it is not like, if you are starting out, you can definitely get people to share if you are falling and creating a really good summits we can get into maybe a few steps here. The first thing I would say is like being clear or what it’s going to be about like your profitable virtual summit idea or theme as (inaudible 17:20) to call it so. I mentioned a little bit in the beginning like it is better if it is specific, if it’s narrow focus like, in your case you can just sum it on sales funnels for example. I think that could do well, you know, I think you also have the experience on it but like bringing people on board to talk about this specific topic maybe more of like case study format (inaudible 17:40) like more actionable not just even though I mean podcasting just can be like that but I have seen -- if you go to itunes you see a lot of podcast that are just pretty much just their story their entire time you know I mean, I am trying to share you know, when on podcast usually depending on what it is I am trying to share (inaudible 17:58) things you can actually implement in your business and if you want to do your summit then that is the main thing when it comes to actually doing virtual summit interviews or presentations whatever you like to have on your summit. That is actionable information, because you are actually selling this I mean, you are putting a limited availability on the interviews or presentations when they go live during your summit and that is also (inaudible 18:21) urgencies you get people to purchase, but if the content is bad or crappy, like that is not going to help you. That is not going to build your brand. So you need to have this really good information on your summit and that also -- speaking of that you do not need to work as much about like yes, you need to ask the speakers to share, yes you need to make it easy for them, but if you focus first and foremost on the content and make it really, really epic on your summit like you know, researching the guest, making sure you know, you cover the most interesting angles on this topic and you know really step by step then they are going to be more likely to share it with their list too and they are doing their audience disservice by not sharing it on set. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, they really are, yeah. I totally agree. So just in case you know, I know how these things make you know, make revenue you know, because I am familiar with them, I have been through them you know, that kind of thing. Just for somebody who does not actually know they are like okay, well you get a whole bunch of speakers to talk you know, how do you actually make money. Why don’t you everybody through you know, how this actually makes money you know and then like any kind of you know expert tips at any kind of things that you found that work the best that kind of maximizing the profit, the actual sales funnel for building one of these things. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, that is interesting. I would like to talk about this so this is like okay, so we have first our landing page, you might have seen those. You go to landing page for the summit. You have the speakers on there. You have a great call to action you know, in the top section, there is (inaudible 19:52) synopsis really clear. That is why it is important that it is a specific topic if you just have a broad topic you might get a lower conversion rate from the landing page. So you go there, you sign up for free typically and you know maybe you start promoting the summit 3 weeks out something like this to your own list and then the affiliates and speakers they start promoting it around 2 weeks before and then when someone signs up from the landing page for free they go to typically a thank you page which is kind of a modified sales page I would like to call it but it is -- the only reason is because you have -- you can have a video there, you can thank people thanks for signing up and you can have like these 3 steps, and you are like telling them, hey check your inbox for an email you know with a details but then below you have information to purchase an all access pass which is pretty much consists of the interviews which can be prerecorded if you have done that you should already have the interviews in the membership area which is pretty easy how to separate membership area for the buyers or if it is a live summit, you can like, just provide that afterwards, I mean, I have been kind of having a high-breed between live and prerecorded. So I have some stuff live like a hangouts and so on in the typical thing, people can purchase on this page for $97 or like a pretty low commitment to purchase access to everything because people know they probably can have time to watch everything during that such a concentrated period of time during the summit so they rather purchase, that is the urgence we are talking about here and irresistible offer so that is kind of the initial phase, like that is -- you can generated hundreds of sales or you know quite a lot of sales before your summit starts by just implementing this simple thing. A lot of people do not do it. They do not have this on the thank you page. That is kind of -- I mean in the sales funnel, this is a little bit more expensive trip by our offer so to speak. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, got you. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, I mean that is the same, that is the easiest I can explain it to people and your audience, more like $97. I would not sell it for -- I mean you could do that too if you want it to have like you know, maybe you can have test it, I have not tested this but you can (inaudible 22:00) sell it for like $7 or $10 and then you can like have another upsell to the other summit, I have not tested it, but overall, it works really well to just have around $97 mark and then get people in there and they market the summit via email you know, when to start. So it is not like, if people do not purchase there right away, they can still check out the into use and everything for free during your summit, during this like 48-hour period or whatever you choose to have your (inaudible 22:28) available from when they go live. So it is still an opportunity in your email to sell and most of this sales they do happen in the emails like when you raise the price, you know, you might raise the price mid through the summit to you know, $147 or $197 and then afterwards like as I mentioned if you have a product you can have that product like you are selling that at the end of your summit and that is how you maximized this funnel. You are getting great sales from the all access pass but also from let us say, a higher end product which is could be from $1,000 to $2,000 price range and that is like -- you can really you know, get 75% of your revenue there almost if you are doing it the right way. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, got you. Have you ever, have you ever because I have seen some summit and some of the things that came through my mind was you know, what if all these interviews are, because you know, a lot of people they go on webinars and like you were saying before, podcast and it is like the story the whole time, there is really no other, they are just talking about themselves for an hour you know, and I am in the same way, I hate that you know, that is like when I interview people, you could tell like we kind of go into your story really quick, because it is important to understand their background but then you get into like okay, what do we do. So have you ever tested something where either right upfront or for people who did not buy like maybe sell it for whatever a week and then after that to the people who did not buy say, Hey, I know you might be a little bit hesitant about it, maybe you think this is one of those you know, other summits you may have tried where it is all like fluff and theory and blah.. blah.. and you give them like a free, not a free trial but a like low price trial. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, that is a good observation. The only thing is that people do have the chance to actually check out the into use for free. If they are like, okay, they are very unsure I mean, if they have been following let us say my summits for a while they will know what to expect, but let us say you are new and you know, (inaudible 24:30) warning like some summits they can just be this fluffy information, you do not know like it is not the format so what I say to all my students is to really think about -- like you what is the best courses -- I have a step by step framework or system to it, so I like to have kind of -- I called it like phases or steps or themes or pillars or something like that. So you kind of have a thought on process what your summit going to be about and then it is also easier to let us say put the speakers on (inaudible 24:57) so for self-publishing success (inaudible 24:59) writing, marketing, publishing, and monetizing. That was our you know steps or themes we have and then we put the speakers under theirs. So that was our phases, we have the speakers (inaudible 25:10) so it was a bit easy to have the writing phase, and marketing, and publishing, and then the monetizing and that is really how we made it very (inaudible 25:19) okay you are going to expect this information. If I am interested in writing, I am going to check out this, so that is kind of how we, how we structure the summit and that is how I do it myself now as well. I did kind of a little bit like this for my first summit but I just improved upon this and I saw way more success when I started to really being thoughtful about the process of actually getting people through the summit and even if they do not check out everything in the membership area it can look like a course when they are purchasing it you know, they get a bonuses and they get the interviews. It is not like 150 interviews in a membership site, it is like ready thought out so they can actually go the section I want to learn about how to write a book. I want to learn how to market it. I want to learn how to monetize it. They go there like a course. So that is what I tend to do. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, I like it. It sounds like you have the whole thing very you know, like you said, very planned and very thought out like each step is very intuitive. Nice, I like it. So how about you know, so there is -- for monetizing, if there is a course that they can buy and then you were talking before about I think it was coaching that you sell afterwards was that right, talk us a little about -- Navid Moazzez: Yes, you can. It does not have to be like in (inaudible 26:33) case he had like a high-end course it can be like, you might not have that yet, maybe you are starting out and you are like doing your summit, you want to grow your list, you want to generate some money from the summit itself but you are getting like people on the list (inaudible 26:48.0)you can survey them and like find out what their pain points are and that is just how you can like get into their head you can like what I did in myself, I heard what people were talking about, they -- I mean I just tested like a hangout, a live hangout. I have some friends (inaudible 27:02.6) like about my process creating this branding summit and a lot of people on this kind of hangout they just started asking me question. They were very interested and then I just launch a pilot program during my summit pretty much and that is one way. A pilot program could be less expensive. You can get people in before you even spent anytime creating the product yourself. I did not spend money. I did not spend you know have all this (inaudible 27:26.1) figure out. I just have -- okay, I have this knowledge I can for sure create something and then (inaudible 27:31.8) you know took a few months that I deliver some content to them but they were already aware of that because they got in (inaudible 27:39.1) expensive rate for the pilot. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, nice. So how about let us just say that somebody is doing this for the first time. I know you, you are like you know, if you did another one you know, next month or whatever like you already have a big list, you may have connections so it is easy to start getting the word out. Do you have any tips for people who maybe this is their first time or basically you know, if they do not have a lot of convictions and relationships and a big list themselves already you know, is there anything that they can do, obviously you know, I should back this up by saying you know, clearly if it is your first time, you are not going to do as well as if you already have all these stuff, I mean that is kind of -- Navid Moazzez: Yeah, I mean that says itself, but without being said, you can get it to success (inaudible 28:27.7) like starting pretty much from scratch. If you have 0 or 100 subscribers, pretty much, I guess the same thing I mean, I have students of mine that gone from pretty much 0 to like few thousand subscribers by just doing their summit and being very thoughtful with their approach of how they are like approaching speakers. So first of all we can talk about this first, how to get speakers when you are starting from scratch. Really, I mean building this relationship up you can like being on their radar a little bit but really you might know someone like you might know someone that you can reach out to maybe you have heard their podcast, you can given them a compliment for you know, this episode or whatever it might be and then you are building this relationship slowly then you have something to ask. It can go pretty quickly to build enough (inaudible 29:13.4) relationship with that person so you can ask for them to be on a summit you know that is what I found with a lot of students. A video invitation worked really well because it is like some people do not take a time to do that honestly. So if you can be someone that stands out and do video invitation you have a very good chance of them saying yes especially if you like keep it to 1 to 2 minutes just keep it in their like why do you really want this person on your summit, why do you really want to interview them, why they are such a great fit to be a speaker. So that is just a few great ways to just reach out to someone even it is cold they are more likely to say yes but then if you -- I called it the ladder strategy so if you know someone, you start with people on the bottom you know and then you work yourself up the ladder. So let us say you have you know, maybe someone on your level or a few steps ahead, maybe start with this person, they might know someone you know up the ladder like a Brian Tracy or John Lee Dumas or whatever niche that might be and then you have people all of a sudden social proof so when you are starting doing a little bit more cold outreach let us say you are doing a little bit cold outreach for a summit usually at least a handful of people you might not have the best connection to then they are very likely to say yes because you have that social proof already in your email and then they can name drop a few people. I mean you mentioned to me when I reached out for an expert (inaudible 30:36.0) good name dropping here something like that. So that stuff matters because they can relate to those names. They might be friends with them. So this is just getting people on board and then we can talk about how to get them to promote. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, yeah, and what you are just said, I do not want anybody to scheme over the importance of what you just said. That is really, really powerful. And I have a couple examples of that, so when I do podcast and I have guest and you will see you know after this, I always say like in my email that I send people right before the podcast goes live, I will always say, Hey, by the way, do you know anybody else, you know, that might be interested being on the podcast and then you know, they list off whatever one, two, three people and then I email those people and say, Hay, you know, (inaudible 31:20.5) just told me that you might be interested. He was just in my podcast, you can listen to the episode here. If you are interested let me know blah.. blah.. I would love to interview and the response rate is so much higher than when we do like you know direct outreach to people that we do not know. So that is one thing if you want just for any kind of podcasting or like just getting in touch with somebody for you know some kind of interview or whatever it is or in this case. Another one is we also do that with affiliates. So that is a really good affiliate marketing strategies doing that same principle you know, start with the C players get a couple of them, get them good results and then you go up and you start name dropping the C players to the B players you know and people that they know and then you know, you work your way up to A you know, to the people that you are really trying to you know, trying to get. Navid Moazzez: It is powerful. It sounds simple to do it but people do not really do that. I am in a lot of podcast and like very few people do this exactly what you said. They can ask me, hey Navid, do you know someone that would be a great fit for this podcast or like in this case like when you get someone on board for your summit let us say you have done a great interview with someone for your summit then you can ask them, Hey, I mean especially, not a specific name though, you should ask just for like, do you know someone who would be a great fit for the summit not ask for (inaudible 32:43.3) then they think you will only have the (inaudible 32:45.9) you definitely do not want to come across (inaudible 32:49.0) this guy. I mean I have had that happened before someone asked me for the introduction let us say to Ramit Sethi because they have seen pictures with me and Ramit because we met up like that is just not cool I think. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I know there is a guy Joe Polish in the marketing industry and he is really close with Richard Branson, and you know, Richard Branson is probably -- but so he said he gets request every single day about an interaction with Richard Branson. I hate it, he is like when people ask me that and I do not know them, I instantly do not like them because they are just using me to get to you know, to Richard. It does not you know, it does not make you feel good when people do that. Navid Moazzez: Exactly, I mean that is for sure. That is a great point there as well. It’s actually you can get people on the summit by just doing this leveraging people maybe in your network or even just being authentic with your approach like if you feel like you do not know them, do video stand out in their eyes you know. Be someone who take action on what they share on their blog. If you are in their course or community, take action. Be someone who stands out. That is how simply can be to get on their radar because that is all you need to like, get them to initially maybe say yes to be on a summit and then we can get to how to get them to promote. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, baby steps. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, exactly and I mean, I am happy to get into a little bit how I, you know, I do not get everyone to promote, I can just be honest with them and that is very hard to get everyone to promote, but just by you know, we are talking about content, content is the key. If you have a great interview, have a great connection with them (inaudible 34:23.7) you are more likely to get them to promote but that is all about -- I do not require them to promote, I do not (inaudible 34:29.7) like a contract or (inaudible 34:32.0) have a fine line there where you know, you got to promote at least 2 times their email list. I do not do this. I focus on their relationship first and foremost and I do ask them, it is really important to ask them but there is a fine line there, you do not like push them to promote, if they say okay I cannot, I have this launch coming up, I cannot promote. Usually that is okay, especially if you are starting out. You should not focus on this now. I have a bigger audience I can say I can leverage that I would get 20,000 to 30,000 people on the summit. So that would be you know, good exposure for any speaker pretty much and then they are more likely to share it out but for someone new, focus on the content and that makes it super easy for them to promote (inaudible 35:12.5) anyway but you know, I have (inaudible 35:14.2) with affiliates you should have the slide copy for them. Images, graphics does really well when you have these banners with their you know, face on it, really important to have that. They are more likely I do not know how much more likely but usually everyone we have done this or shared at least on social media if you have a graphic with their face because you took their time and create this and then having like you know, good communication. I think it is all about communication with the affiliates. If (inaudible 35:40.4) hey I am going to promote this, it is kind of your job to as the host of the summit to make sure you know, not pushing them or to actually get pissed about it, but really like pulling up with them constantly, because some people schedule this like (inaudible 35:55.0) something happened and then not being like -- you got to be clear on the date like you mentioned. I have calendars for my affiliates like just tell them. Here is the best dates to promote and they shared this with them and then they can you know, put that in their schedule which is really important for let us say, (inaudible 36:12.7) entrepreneur you want them on your summit to promote it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, nice. So I just had a question that totally, totally went out of my head. Well actually, you know, we are starting you know come up to time here. So, is there anything else that I have not asked you know, that you think you know, if someone is listening to this and you thought they had to know it too either get started or you know maximize let us say they already made a decision to do this you know, anything else that would help them maximize the results to get anything, anything pop in your head. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, I mean, I would say, if you can just I mean, obviously, there is a lot of things we did not talk really about you know, the technical things and this setting it up. Essentially, the funnel, I just want people to be clear of what it looks like since you are talking a lot about this, so it is a landing page, a thank you page, and then you know, that is the initial part and then into your emails you mentioned that you know, from time to time, you mentioned the sales page, it does not stop there. You will get sales for your (inaudible 37:17.6) and all these during the summit too. So it is like the presales kind of before you even have the (inaudible 37:22.6) any content to people which is cool. You get like paid. Yeah, it is nice and it is like a presale and then during the summit, okay, some people they are checking out the interviews, they are really loving the content. Some people they find out okay, I am not gonna have time to watch everything and then he purchased and then at the end if you have that chance, you can have like you know, some live element too so you can promote a webinar or your hosting, like around a similar topic, let us say, in Chandler’s case, what is self-publishing (inaudible 37:50.4) webinar promoting his course at the end. So we have a promotion for that. That is how you can like, as you get more advanced, you can like add those elements in and that is just a bigger win for everyone involved like the speakers or for affiliates to promote it because they can make more money and if you do not have that, just make it you know, think about it from their standpoint really I mean we did not really touch on that but make it a win for them so they are on board, okay, you are starting out, what can you do. You can promote them after your summit too. You have grown your list, that is what I do a lot. I have grown my list with like 3,000 people after my first summit like in 2014. I could promote people to my list. I could be an affiliate for their products and just add more value. I also linked up their freebie below their interview on the summit pages I have as well. That is also another way to position them in a good way on your summit when you are starting, building this relationship that way too. I had many people on my summit, I got like hundreds of opt-ins from just doing that. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, I love it. So, you know, tell everybody because this is something that like if you are going to do that you definitely want to not try to figure out yourself you know, this is -- Navid Moazzez: Like I did. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I feel like this is one of those things you know, there are certain things that you can kind of just you know figure out on how to do it yourself. I think this thing you know, setting up a summit is sure you can do it, but you are gonna not only not make as much money and get you know bigger results, and it is not just about money like we are talking about, it’s you know, the exposure, the email list, the money you know, everything, the credibility and you know, I know that you help people with every aspect of that you know what I mean, so tell everybody you know, what you, how you can help them whether it is you know, a course that you have, your own kind of personal coaching that kind of thing you know, if they are interested in doing this tell them of how can they get in touch with you. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, the best way I would say is to get, grab cheat sheet that I have created. It is a 7 steps to create, promote, and profit from virtual summits and that is what Chandler started with actually before we even started working together. He (inaudible 40:00.2) cheat sheet he saw what was involved and that cheat sheet I mean, (inaudible 40:04.2) generated him quite a lot of money like also brought 30,000 opt-ins and did, I mean, it is pretty much the framework, it is the 7 steps you need to I mean, obviously there is a lot that goes into there but just follow the 7 steps or at least get -- see if you are interested in it like if you are interested a little bit, grab this over at virtualsummitmastery.com/cheatsheet and you know, you are at least good to go for the time being (inaudible 40:31.0) tip your toes a little bit into virtual summits and if you are more, if you are interested to take it to the next level, yes, I have a flagship program called Virtual Summit Mastery too so you know, you can look out for that as well if you are on my email list. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, sounds good. Hey man, it was a pleasure not only having you on the podcast but catching up again. Navid Moazzez: Yeah, definite man. You got to do it more often. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, sounds good. Yeah, everybody, thanks for listening in. Navid, thanks for coming out again. I appreciate it. It was great you know, I -- maybe putting this on my list for sometime in the near future. I will talk to you about it separately. I already have kind of half timeline in my head for it because I have been thinking about a little bit that is actually why I reached out because it has been in the back of my mind is one of those you know, we will do it soon kind of thing you know, so it would be fun, but so yeah, thanks again for coming on and everybody again, you know all of his links that we talked about will be in the show notes so I know it is a little bit long all that kind of thing. So just go into the show notes and links will be there. You can just click them and go check out his cheat sheet and his flagship course and all that fun stuff. Otherwise, I hope you all had a great time listening to this and got a lot out of it and we will talk to you soon.

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  • 01:15:57

    Solopreneur Hour

    · Entrepreneur Success Stories By Join Up Dots, Motivation, Confidence, & Expert Business Coaching To Start Your Online Career

    Todays guests is Mr Michael O'Neal, the podcasting master behind the hit Itunes show "The Solopreneur Hour Podcast". The top ranked business show, or The Solohour as it is known to its friends, teaching online marketing and entrepreneurship skills.  Michael is a man who quite simply without him, then I wouldn't be on the mic today. So you know where to send all your complaints too. He is a born entrepreneur with a fascinating story, of successes, setbacks, leaps of faith, and finding his unique path with the guidance of John Lee Dumas and Pat Flynn. Growing up in Philadelphia, the thought of being the host of his own podcast show was the last thing on his mind. He was a normal type of kid, obsessed with sport, finding trouble at school, and generally being a kid. But unfortunately that freedom of thought and energy changed when he was moved from his beloved Philly, and taken down to Florida, and it seems to me this was the start of him looking for his path in life. He didn’t fit in down in the Sunshine State, so as soon as he could, he got himself back up North, and discovered one of the first dots in his life that links him to where he is today…the internet. He was fascinated by the worldwide web, so developed skills to be a web designer. And that was his life for fifteen years, until unfortunately his parents both passed away in a very short time, and he found himself sitting with just $14 dollars in his pocket. He was over 30, with a decision forced upon him. Would he accept the punches that life had dealt him, or would he start fighting back? And that descision was made and he took the steps that made him “Know too much” and not want to work for anyone else again? He was going to become a solopreneur and own his own future. But how did he know he had the skills to be a success in the online arena? How did he know where his true passions lie? And does he regret inspiring guys like me to jump into the pool too? Well lets find out as we bring onto the 100th show to start joining up dots, the man on the mike, the host of the “Solopreneur Hour podcast”, the one and only Mr Michael O’Neal!   For more on the Solohour Podcast go to: The Solopreneur Hour Podcast with Michael O'Neal - Job Security...for the Unemployable By Michael O'Neal Chats with Proudly Unemployable Solopreneurs Like Himself Description They say successful people put their pants on the same way we all do. This show is about watching them put their pants on. Nominated As "Best New Show of 2013" by Stitcher Radio, Our range of guests takes us from comedy, to acting, to the NFL, to UFC and MMA, to Top Music Stars, to Millionaires, to Business Experts, to Real Estate moguls, and everything in between. Guests like Nicole Arbour, Adam Carolla, Hines Ward, Sam Jones, Tucker Max, Jonathan Fields, Derek Halpern, Pat Flynn, Amy Porterfield, John Lee Dumas, Chris Ducker, Chris Brogan, Guy Kawasaki, Mike Johnston, Rich Franklin, and many more, these casual conversations contain tons of action-inducing content wrapped up in an entertaining candy shell. Transcript Yes hello. How are we all? Can you believe it. Episode 100. We have been building up to this for well, it seems like a hundred episodes and we are finally here. We have got a man who who quite simply rose to the top and was going to be the only person who would fit the mantle of being my 100th guest. And I’ve had people banging down the doors. I had Paul McCartney phone up the other day and say I want to be on the show, I’ve heard it’s a big thing and I said to him, “Paul, unless you can get the other four Beatles to join you, it’s not going to happen” We’ve had  David Bowie crying. It’s been pathetic really. So today’s man has been nailed on to do this today, and I’m absolutely delighted that he’s on the show because quite simply without him I wouldn’t be on the microphone. So you know where to send all your complaints to! He’s a man with a fascinating story of successes, setbacks leaps and finding his unique voice. Growing up in Philadelphia he was a normal type of kid obsessed with football at school, and generally being a kid. But unfortunately that freedom of thought and energy changed when he was moved from his beloved Philly and taken down to Florida and it seemed to me this to stop him looking for his path in life. He didn’t fit in down in the sunshine state so soon as he could he got himself back up north and discovered one of the first dots in his life that links him to where he is today the Internet. He was fascinated by a World Wide Web so develop skills to be a web designer and as he’s known for 15 years until unfortunately his parents both passed away in a very short time and he found himself sitting with just fourteen dollars in his pocket. It was over thirty with a decision forced upon him. Would you accept the punches that life had dealt him or would he stop fighting back and that decision was made and he took steps that made him know too much and not want to work for anyone else again. He was going to become a solopreneur and own his own future. But how did he know he had the skills to be a success in the online arena and how did he know where his true passions lie? And does he regret inspiring guys want me to jump into the pool too. Well let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up thoughts the man on the microphone. The host of the Solohour podcast, the only Mr. Michael O’Neal. Well how are you Michael?   Michael O’Neal Oh here is what I can’t even what is happening. I am so flabbergasted by that intro. OK. Two things. Number one that was the best intro I’ve ever had. And formerly Chris Cerrone had that that title of the best in show to a show I’ve ever had. But it was one of the best I’ve ever heard for anybody which is why you are so the right person for this job. Well we’re all thankful you have a microphone in front of you David. Trust me on that. Second thing is I would pay to hear Zombie John Lennon if you could figure out a way to get all four Beatles on the show. That would be cool. David Ralph Well I can do Steve Jobs every day. So I might be able to do them as well. Michael O’Neal Ah so dude that was incredible. I am . I am flummoxed. David Ralph I’m so excited to be on David Ralph’s show. David Ralph – Yeah. Go go and do that because I know you have been doing an action of me on a few shows and we’ll show you a few times night. Yeah you got a little bumper for me on my show. I have these little things that when people ask you me I have a guest on the show that I have them do a little like Hi this is David Ralph and then I get interested in this opener with Mike O’Neill and your voice is so. What’s the first thing I ever said to you. I said you have the ultimate voice for radio. Didn’t I say that you did. Absolutely. David Ralph I haven’t got the face for television but I’ve got a voice for Radio Michael O’Neal Well as long as you’ve got the radio part worked out and you have taken this thing and you’ve run with it my friend. So I’m honored. I’m honored to be at the 100 episode Mark. Thank you. Thank you. David Ralph Absolutely. It is an honor to have you here because it is amazing when you start this thing,because you started your show what was it August 2013. Michael O’Neal Eleven month ago. David Ralph Yeah,11 months ago and now you are rocking and rolling with the best of them you surround yourself with, with the Internet movers and shakers the ziggers and zagers and you know you’re going to be humbled by this. So maybe you won’t. You are an online celebrity of note. When I was saying to people is my show a lot of people sort of touch on the shows of said to me I know who you’re going to have. And I said no you don’t. And I go Yes I know who you’re going to have and ego going and going to no one. And I when Martin O’Neill and I went oh term term how did I know. Really I know. Yes yeah I did it because I had pain you know I don’t want to suck up to you Michael but the early days I didn’t know what the hell I was doing. So I just kept on saying your name over and over again or some kind of benchmark of what I was trying to achieve because you like that you’d come out the gates really and say look like a rocket ship. It’s unbelievable. But you’ve only been around so long because it seems like you’ve been here ever in a day. Does it seems like that to you? Michael O’Neal It is weird. It does feel like it was yesterday that I launched the show. It feels really really recent to me that it happened. So but then at the same time I look at the memories that I’ve had over the last 11 months and all the cool benchmarks and you know different things that have happened and, but it’s packed full of stuff right. So I think if there’s any celebrity it’s sort of a z list celebrity and only at certain conferences. But yeah it’s been it’s been an incredible journey. I couldn’t be happier with how it’s gone. And I can’t wait to see what happens in the next 365. You know I’m really excited about that. David Ralph Is there a plan to the next 365 because you seem to me somebody who is very much stimulated by the now and then. Are you somebody who knows what you’re aiming to achieve? Michael O’Neal No I’m a notorious non planner. Much to the chagrin of my girlfriend who is a total planner and if I didn’t have the you know a calendar app on my phone I would be I would be completely floating out there now because I I wake up and I look at I go OK what do I have to do today. And then I see what’s going on for the day. And sometimes that doesn’t work out for me like in a social situation because people actually make plans to go out and do things. But and I’m not one of them. And all of a sudden it’s Friday I’m like I probably should have planned to do something. Yes I watch movies tonight. But yeah I I’m in an interesting spot right now because I have had this kind of five year run of as you mentioned in the intro bringing myself in this very circuitous path from $14 and not having a clear direction to now. When someone says What do you do. I say I’m a podcast host. And that’s a thing like I. That’s what I do. So I sort of a couple of weeks ago had an occasion to kind of put the cap on that five year journey and now I’m going to be looking ahead but I haven’t quite formulated what that ahead looks like yet. David Ralph And how did you do that? How did you put a cap on that. How did you say that is five years, finished boxed up? Michael O’Neal Well it was as i say I’m I’m a notorious non-celibrator. I’m a guy that usually gets to an achievement and then continues to go without acknowledging it. And I have what is probably a weird story that you’re asking for but hey here comes. So I’ve been a Porsche fan for my whole life. And you may already know where you’re heading with this but I was a Porsche fan my whole life and I don’t know why particularly. I was I had a Volkswagen in high school and I think that maybe planted to see a little bit and I was a car guy and so you know those Porsche ads from the 80s with like the big fender flares and the big wing. I think I was attracted to that and I eventually in 2003 I bought my first vintage Porsche so I bought a 1972 11 and it was a piece of crap. I bought it in New York. I didn’t know better. I drove across country midway across the USA and midway across the country the engine blew up. So that’s how badly. Where were you when this happened. I was in the dead heart middle of Nebraska when it happened in Nebraska I suppose. You it’s nothing. It is hundreds and millions of acres of wide open like cornfields and nothing else. I mean we are I was I have a picture of my car sitting looking like it’s a panther wading in the grass. Waiting to you know to prowl and it’s just sitting there with with like a hundred miles in each direction of grass. There was no middle of nowhere when it happened and I ended up finding a Volkswagen place 60 miles away that towed me in. And the guy dropped the oil pan in the car and just giant chunks of metal came out and I’m like I’m pretty sure that’s not how it’s supposed to be. So I ended up getting a tow truck driving it from Denver where I was living at the time and picking it up. Neither here nor there. So I eventually traded that piece of crap on and got a nicer one. Not when I bought it but in 2005 and I restored this car it took me four years and 2000 hours to restore this car back to better than factory condition when I still have it now. And as part of the dynamic this one in 1969 9/11 and the 69 through 73 nine elevens are very very sought after. They are the iconic 9/11. So when you would see Steve McQueen and a picture of him in the 60s you know you know in LA MA or something driving a 9/11 he was driving one of these sort of 69 to 73 virgins. And one of the sponsors of Porsche in the 60s was a company called Hoyer which was tag Hoyer before Tagg was involved in the mid-80s. So just Hoyer and it’s a guy named Jack Hoyer and he made these beautiful tiny pieces chronographs based on race timers. So you’d have a co-driver with you as a race car and there was a race in Mexico called the career of PanAmericana and the first Porsche Carrera was named after this particular race. So Hoyer as a sponsor of Porsche created a watch based on the chronographs that they used for the race cars and they called it the Hoyer Kura. So this was a very utilitarian type watch you could use it as a race time or you could just click one of the buttons and it had this chronograph on it. It was beautiful automatic beautiful timepiece. And as I’ve been going through this journey for five years this has been on my vision board because these are about three grand and above to get one of these watches. But that was so superfluous for me because I had no i like zero money. And for me to spend three grand on something as excessive as a watch wasn’t even on my radar. So about a month and a half ago now I was in this position where I was like this could be the time. And I scoured the world. I ended up buying a 1972 Hoyer Carrera from a guy in France and it came to my house and it was more beautiful in person than I. I’d never seen one in person is more beautiful than I even thought it could be. And I remember at the mid midday I’d gone to this little swimming pool by my house I belong to this little pool club which is where I work out and I was swimming in the middle of the day two o’clock in the afternoon like Tony Soprano in the middle of a work day and thinking I just did this like this just happened. This 5 year journey comes stops right now like this is where my new journey begins. I’ve gone through this trial by fire. I’ve come out hopefully like a phoenix. I’m in a position where I can buy this watch now which is insane to think about and I’m peaceful and grateful for the life that I’ve built. And so that for me was the cap of a five year struggle. I mean a real struggle to get to where I am today. David Ralph Mr. O’Neill is a perfect story. It started and it made me think if I’m ever in a pub quiz and a question about Portia comes up you’re my man that does it to Luli you are obsessed by that and you. The amount that you were quoting then. Michael O’Neal Ah. I mean I think. I think it’s kind of a lifetime obsession for people that become afflicted by it. In fact there’s a great ad I will send it to you on YouTube and there’s an ad for the new Porsche about the time the new Porsche Carrera ad and it was there it’s a little boy. And he’s a little kid in his classroom and he’s daydreaming and on 9/11 drives by him and you just see him like looking out the window and his pencil drops and you know then he he gets in trouble. And then he runs to the you know was on his BMX bike to the Porsche dealer after school and and he you know he ends up sitting in this car and the steering wheel is bigger than he is and you see Mike raised his head he’s 12 or something and that he goes to the dealer or the guy goes you have a card and the guy goes yeah here you go and he goes I’ll see in 20 years. And then there’s this great voice over that says something like there’s a there’s a there’s a particular moment that happens with you know a Porsche fan. There’s that time you want one. Then there’s the time you get one and for the truly affected afflicted there’s the 20 years in between. And it just like it gives you the chills and my buddies sent it. I sense my body goes man. Pass the Kleenex. So I guess there is a real passion there for this. It’s a very visceral feeling that is so different because of the way they build their cars and because the engines in the rear and it’s a totally different experience than you have with with any other vehicle that yeah there becomes a real passion a real obsession with him. Did you read that because this shows about joining up dots, but do you remember as a young kid having the same kind of obsessive compulsive in both words and things when when you was a little kid running around the streets of Philly pretending you Rocky did most will keep you alive without paying him for the Michael O’Neal No no no. I was a BMX kid. Now I was I was in a suburb. I was the only gentile I was in a super Jewish town north of Philadelphia. And I was a BMX or I rode my BMX bike. I mean I was from 1984 until I mean I was racing bikes from 84 until 2000. David Ralph So Rocky wasn’t on your radar at all? Michael O’Neal No not at all. Tony Hawk and Dave you know Dave Voelker and Matt Hoffman and you know BMX guys Bob horo. They were all on my radar. I’ll tell you here’s here’s a little here’s a join up dot that is current. I rode an entire daywith real wow I just blanked on his name. That’s embarrassing really. I’m killing myself right now this is bad radio. David Ralph What  does he look like? Michael O’Neal He’s a big famous director now and he will watch films John Malkovich. Being John Malkovich won a friggin Oscar. We’re ready. Come on. With it and it might seem seamless Spike Jones for crying out loud. David Ralph Spike Jones Michael O’Neal Yeah Spike Jones the director was a dude I rode with at a place called Rockville BMX and we were just BMX or dudes riding around. And then he he became a photographer for one of the BMX magazines and then started doing filming because he did Beastie Boys first video I forget which one and then started doing independent films then did Being John Malkovich and now he is like an international you know massive director like one of the best most well-reputed directors in the world. And it was kind of cool. I mean so he did adaptation he did Being John Malkovich Where the Wild Things Are You know just just done amazing stuff. So the Academy Awards. And so a pretty pretty bad ass. He did her you know the movie Her most recent Yeah that’s Spike Jones. David Ralph So is there any similarity between the young kid in Philly and now, because from what I see across the pond and I listen into the conversations that you have with your internet guys and it does seem from this side of the pond that you’ve got a gang of friends and followers and whatever that basically control the Internet. I had Rick Mulready on the show. And I said “Do you ever feel like slipping something into Pat Flynns drink, so that the next morning you turn on your screen and see if there’s a black hole on the Internet because he’s not functioning at this time because it kind of seems not” But he wouldn’t be pushed in to slipping a Mickey into his drink in any shape or form. But you seem a little bit edgy to most of them. Michael O’Neal Yeah. David Ralph Is that because you’re from Philly. Is it because he’s a very sort of industrial Con. Its a real city you know. Its like a working class city when you’re there. Michael O’Neal Yeah I think the the edginess is something that I’m kind of a known for. I don’t know if you curse on your show but I’m kind of a no B.S. kind of guy and I’ve never been one to straddle the fence very very much. And I think what happened with Irwin what happens with a lot of these sort of Internet type celebrities is that they’re so concerned about getting the broadest audience that they sometimes come off as being a little bit milktoast or a little bit vanilla. And I come from a totally different perspective where when you think about media you think about New York Philadelphia Boston. These are like the media centers of the world. It’s where you know you go to Boston College that’s one of the broadcasting school that’s where Howard Stern went. That’s where many very famous broadcasters come from those places I went to Temple University which has an incredible media department. And when you look at the people that are iconic in history they’re not people that are vanilla. There are people that have strong opinions one way or the other and people either love them or they hate them but they’re definitely them. So they definitely have a presence. They definitely have a voice that’s unique to them. And I think I always think it took me a little while to settle into that on my show but it is ultimately as you as I developed the show and I developed my own voice I realized hey I’m not in the interest of pleasing everybody. Like that’s not my job. My job is to talk from my perspective on certain issues and try to extract really good business advice from people without them or my audience really seeing what I’m doing. And one of my favorite quotes to that is and you probably heard me say before but which just never let him see your work. You know that’s from Bill Cosby also from my alma mater Temple University in Philly and that basically means that go through your process ask your questions you know have questions written down but you don’t have to be so blatant about it. You can you can ease through you know great standup comedians do this like Louis C.K. talks you know he’ll be sputtering and angry and going through all this process on stage and you think that that’s just how he is. You laugh at his angry energy but he knows all the beats within that he knows exactly what he’s doing within that realm and that is that is him not letting you see him work on him. David Ralph When your on the mike then how much is you now being absolutely authentic and how much is it creating a mood creating an atmosphere on the show. Michael O’Neal Well it can’t. Can’t you have both? David Ralph Oh I don’t know CAN you? Michael O’Neal What are you asking? Are you asking how much is sort of pre-written and how much is off the cuff? David Ralph Well on this show for example some of the things I say I only say to get a reaction from the guest. You know do I really mean it kind of. Do I think that they will go against it. Yes. So I will say it. How much do you actually say that you believe 100 percent. Michael O’Neal Well first of all you do that because you understand this and you’re a pro. I mean this is a very natural place for you to end up. So I think that that I do very similar things to you, as you do just because yeah sometimes you want to extract some stuff from a guest that is being difficult. But yeah I mean I’m pretty authentic dude. I there’s not a lot there’s people that have met me in real life and go Oh you’re exactly like you are on the show. Yeah Im exactly like I’m in the show. I turn it on and I talk so I don’t have this, I’m not affected in any way. I just go. David Ralph So you’re not like you haven’t got a human graphic equalizer when you press record you just kind of increase certain parts of your personality. Michael O’Neal Not really. No. This is pretty much how I am. Yeah I’ll speak like I speak. I’m probably slightly dirtier in real life. David Ralph Well you don’t know where the words will land do you! Michael O’Neal I probably curse a little more which is fine. I’ve done a few podcasts now where I was allowed to do that and it did make it really nice. David Ralph Are you in the same situation as me because I used to listen to your show all the time and it was a staple diet during my transition at that time and now I’m doing this. One of the failures of me is that I don’t get time to listen to other people’s shows. I listen to your one  the other day because I just suddenly realized I had a gap but you almost become an island of your own success where before I used to listen to shows and I used to think oh I’ll take a bit of it and I’ll take a bit of it and become like a magpie. And now I don’t know what vibe is out there and I don’t know whether I’m being edgy or whatever. It just seems to be you. Speaking to the mic and I throw it out to the world and hopefully it goes well. It seems to be a fault of mine, and so do you have the same thing? Michael O’Neal No I’m exactly the same way. I’d say partially by choice and partially by by time. So when I when I do have time to consume podcasts I don’t tend to go business. I tend to go comedy. And lately I tend to go NFL football. I listen to podcasts related to that because I want to be able to clock out a little bit when I do want real inspiration. I’ve been listening to here’s the thing with Alec Baldwin it’s WNYC. I’ve not heard a better intro or production or interview style than that show. It’s his in his intros are nothing short of brilliant. I mean they’re amazing how he brings a guest on an and then how he interviews and his questions are very in-depth and he’s such a pro that it makes it really easy for me to like look at that bar and go OK that’s where the soul open for hours going. That’s what I do. I actually honestly David I find now the more that I get into this show the more I almost can’t stand other people’s shows like there so few that can capture my attention and that I feel like are being done well even with really good friends of mine that do shows I just go and that is almost unlistenable. You know it’s so. So I just don’t I definitely look far above the kind of Internet Marketing slash business world for inspiration on how I want to run mine. David Ralph because the only two that I listen to now is yours. And I went on started. I wanted to listen to every single one. And but the nerdiest and there the only two reasons. Yeah great and Nerdist is good for a number of reasons. David Ralph Yeah I just like the way it kind of flows and you don’t even know it started and it just kind of teases right. Michael O’Neal That’s right. Yeah they just start it. We kind of did that today didn’t we. David Ralph Yeah absolutely and that was the good stuff. Michael O’Neal And we talked for a while before we started recording. You know me I mean it just felt like yeah hit it. Go for it. We’ll start like Nerdist. But yeah no I think that there’s a sense there’s such a glutton of new shows out there and I don’t. but if I’m being opinionated I don’t. There’s a lot of places where people are learning quote on quote how to podcast. And I think they’re feeding them crap information.So often a big problem. David Ralph And I know he’s a mate of yours and I wish him all the success in the world, but the problem is so many people are trying to duplicate John Lee Dumas and that’s not right. He came first and he created the structure of his show, and whether you like that format or whatever that is he’s and he’s made in his own by being him. And I hear these shows and after about three minutes I think oh my god it’s the same thing again. Now I will listen to your shows and I will go all the way through. But people miss a trick don’t lay up coming back to my all the time is finding your authentic self playing to your streams. And and if you do that you create a bigger loyalty. You know if you are totally yourself people either hate you or like you but the ones that like you will love you. And that’s where these people are missing out because they’re not even being authentic to themselves they’re just kind of a middle ground. Michael O’Neal Yeah. And John would tell you and I’ve said this a million times in front of him and said do you the success of your show or his show has nothing to do with his format. And it has nothing do with him as a podcast for that all. It has everything to do with the fact that he has a financial background writes great marketing copy and has a schedule and a rigidity too. He has a military rigidity because he was in the military to his to his business. And unless you come with that exact kind of background you will not have success in that way. People think that because of the way he does his show because it’s structured and because he has these set questions and does it seven days a week that that’s why he’s successful and is completely irrelevant to that. So the problem is is like you said so many people listen to that or they go to podcasters paradise and they learn a certain way to do things. And I’m almost diametrically opposed to every single thing that they’re learning. So it’s like it’s like man I it’s it’s frustrating for me in that way. And I shouldn’t say that like I want to rephrase that I’m not time actually oppose everything they’re learning what I’m what I’m worried about is that the things that I think make podcasting successful aren’t emphasized in a lot of training courses. And like you just said finding your own voice is a number one you have to be successful. You have to find your own voice and you have to have a great brand and it’s not something that people speak about a lot. Like I took a lot of cliff Ravenscroft stuff. I’ve taken all the stuff. I’ve seen a number of course is out there a lot of them don’t pay a lot of attention to that piece and I worry that with this next phase of podcasting and what’s you know since everyone’s starting a show they’re going to find it a lot harder to sustain it unless they’ve found their own voice on their voice. And and it’s within this brand that they’ve really created. So we’ll see. But that’s the jury’s out on that. David Ralph Did you really have to love doing this because I’m going to play a speech in my Jim Carrey and I’m actually I’m going to play now and we’re going to talk afterwards. This is Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey Sound Clip My father could have been a great comedian but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old. He was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father. Not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love. David Ralph Is that the true message that we should be getting across? Michael O’Neal Yes it is unfortunately the connecting of the dots joining of those two dots which is I found this thing that I love and now I have to figure out how to get paid for it is difficult. That’s a difficult journey. And that’s my that was my five year journey. Right. First not even knowing what it was that I loved. I had no idea I was going to podcast five years ago but I had an initial foray into public speaking. I started teaching social media on stage and I ended up traveling and going to 17 cities teaching people how to use social media to grow their business and I found it very like oh this is something I could be good at. And then that morphed into doing back end production on a podcast for a year and a half and just starting to understand the podcasting industry that finally morphed into me starting my own show and here we are. But it was a five year journey to find that you know like I had indicators of it and if someone in 2009 it said hey do you want to get. You want to make six figures and be a public speaker. I be like totally that be great. But at the time I had nothing to speak about. And now I do. So it’s kind of a I I do feel like you have to find something that will and you’ve probably seen this in your life with your show something that will make you walk into that studio and record an episode even if you’re exhausted or not in the mood or whatever because you truly love it and you’re excited about it. Oh yesterday. That’s how I am. Yeah I’ve had times when I’ve recorded 12 shows back to back and now I’ve. Why just because I knew I was going to do it seven days a week show and that was the hardest time I had. I had no internet for two weeks he just crashed on me and I suddenly panic but I didn’t have enough to cover. And I was going away as well. So yes seven days a week he goes out and I needed the boke. And so I did it and I started off at six o’clock in the morning and I just went through through move through and I edited and I did everything in the gap between when I recorded the next one and he just went seamlessly. And when I pressed record yes I was on I was on. Once I was off it was just like I was you know on drugs or something I was just slump too much. But it wasn’t until the very last ones that I realized actually about that passion that you’re talking about the ability to actually do it when you’re tired. I’ve gone past by and I was actually feeling ill. And I remember doing this show and the sweat was pouring off me and I listened back to and it doesn’t sound like it but I realized brain actually no you’ve got to look up to yourself as much as you do actually doing something. Yeah I’m very committed to that. DAVID It’s I have I have three sort of pillars if you will that I do I think make a good soul a partner or a successful soul a partner. And there’s there’s time freedom there’s financial freedom and there’s location freedom. And so the first one is really easy time freedom simple you walk into your boss’s office tell him to go screw himself and then you have time freedom. There you go. Location freedom. You can pretty much just get in a car and go somewhere that we have that kind of freedom in the U.K. and in the United States. Yeah there’s some complications in between. But technically you can just go do that. It’s the financial freedom part. That’s the tricky part of the three. That is a little harder. But I find that I’m so unwilling to compromise my time freedom. I’ve turned down so many more so much more money because it would compromise my time freedom like I could have a lot more coaching clients and a lot more people in my my group coaching. It’s called Solo lab. But with that I would have to commit another couple of days to taking care of them and I’d I’m willing to do that at all. Like i will i love my life the way it is right now and I can be comfortable financially I can go do fun things. And I don’t have to compromise that. And you know hopefully I can continue to grow and continue to you know make more money maybe have more speaking gigs things like that but I don’t intend on working any harder. I just want to you know work smarter maybe try to over deliver a little more to my audience and that’s what I’m looking for. Well was sensible and that’s exactly what I want to do as well because I hate these people and it’s almost like a badge of honor. But I’ve quit in nine to five job. And then you go yes I’m an online marketing do I do this I’m a diva and I cook my time and I’m doing 80 hours a week and I think right. Right. What the hell do you do that. Why don’t you just do two days hard work and have the rest of the time of it. It seems stupid that I say that. That’s right. And it’s. It does. It is counter intuitive. The thing is when my parents passed away you mentioned this in the intro when they did that. My perspective on time completely shifted and I just I. Life’s too short. So I am very much a person that says both. When someone says would you like this or this. I say both. When I get an opportunity to do something I say yes. Win you know and I just do it like it’s a thing that I have committed to and not mentally like I don’t just go yeah this is what I’m going to do from now on. I just do it now I just say yeah let’s do that. That sounds fun. Let’s just go for that. I’m going to go on a hike. Yeah. Great book a ticket. You know and we just do it. And I found that that has served me really well because when I do that and I put that as a priority in my life then the the stuff that I’m not so thrilled about I still end up having to do it. It still fills in the blanks but my priority is to really extract the most that I can out of my life and I’ll tell you not a person that does that well I think as John John Lee Dumas he works probably a little more like the person you were just mentioning. He works a lot but he’s also great at saying yes when when something comes across his desk he goes yeah lets do that. And it’s like on the schedule. And I think that’s that’s part of I think what that’s part of success. To me that’s part of what success feels like is being able to do that. I remember hearing an interview with Billy Joel and the interviewer said to him Billy you’ve sold X squillion albums and singles and you’ve done these tours and you play Madison Square Garden five straight nights. What has success given you. And he just said time and that was it. He can wake up each morning and if he doesn’t want to do something he doesn’t. And that single word resonated with me hugely especially when I was in my 9 to 5 job and I realized then that things were not right. And why should I be doing a nine to five job when there are options I suppose. I began to know too much. And then once you know too much brain you realize you can’t ever go back. Michael O’Neal Yeah. It’s really really is a one way street. It also but that carries over as well into my personal life as well. And I think when the there’s ever such a different confidence now just in my life in general and I think Billy Joel would sort sort of anybody that reached a level of success has this this this underlying confidence about them that is very attractive not only to you know the opposite sex but it’s what attracts other successful people to you. There’s just there’s a subtlety in actions and just how really how you go through life when you’re confident that is very attractive to you know both both people both sexes and that is something that people pick up on pretty easily. You become a success back humor don’t you. You know the old Jim rhône thing about you know the average of you know five people to surrender a lot of people I talked to. Yeah. I mean a crappy job and all these miserable people all the time. How can I surround myself. And one of the things I say to them is you know focus on success because the more success you get and the more competence as you say they end up a successful people get sucked into your world and suddenly you created what he was saying. It’s not easy to do. But it certainly is a mindset that starts moving in that direction. That’s right. And you it’s funny you just asked that question of me is how do you now you’re on it you’re on an island so you’re you’re in the UK you’re not. I’m in San Diego so I get to have a bunch of people around me at all times. I will say though we don’t get together. I mean you know we get together as friends but I’m not in a mastermind with any of these people around me. We don’t sit there and me out. So you know to answer your question I’m mean answer answered on my show tomorrow. But you’ve got to join a group you’ve got to join a group mastermind of some sort. And there’s really no other way. If you if you’re not surrounded by those five people that that you feel are motivating you in a way that that is bettering your life and hopefully their lives. You’ve got to separate from those people and find the people that are doing that and pretty much everyone I know that’s in this you know business Internet Marketing podcasting world has some sort of coaching program. And my best advice is to get people that you really enjoy like how they speak and like how they deliver and join their group and that’s it. And you know once you’re a part of that community you’ll be a lot more apt to be motivated you know learn the things you want to learn. It’s part of the reason why I don’t need to listen to podcasts anymore because I have so many people in my group that are doing cool things. I get to learn about all the cool new stuff without having to go listen. They sort of comes to me. So so do you now feel that you’re ahead of the curve. Because when when you started the show I remember you saying it’s the Wild West and now it seems like every man Dogan whatever has made me a podcast. So do you think now about you it’s not the Wild West but you actually ahead of the curve. It’s good. Get a question. Yes and no I think it’s still the wild west. I think that people in this environment aren’t necessarily looking in the right direction to advance their business where they should be. Let me clarify that. I think inspiration for how someone’s podcast get better gets better doesn’t happen within the new podcasting community. It happens with old media. Then you go look at how you all learn how to interview you go study Howard Stern if you want to learn how to produce an an excellent show. You go you know you look at and some an NPR show or something like that like a where a BBC show something that you know pay close attention to how people are introducing guests and what they’re how they do their ads and how they integrate you know clips from this person’s body of work into their intro or into the show itself. So I think there is really a professional side to this that will ultimately come out. For me personally what I’ve realized over the last couple of months and this is something that I think you can you can sort of strap on as a badge of honor as well is that I’m a better interviewer than most. Just in general I’m more intuitive and I have more range of knowledge so I can connect those dots. You know I can join those dots. And that’s what makes for a compelling and entertaining interview no matter who you are it’s the people that have the pre-scripted questions that I think are really going to struggle because that’s that’s very exhausting to an audience. So on one side I think I’m still really ahead of the curve in that. I come from this and as do you come from this background this history of paying attention to interviewers and then sort of bringing this natural ability to the microphone that 99 percent of people don’t have. And that’s the building not only to interview someone in a business sense and extract what they do for a living but actually make an entertaining hour of programming for someone. And in my opinion they can get the business data from 80000 podcasts that are on iTunes but it’s really hard to get entertainment out of it. And that’s what I’m trying to bring to the table and I think that’s what you do a really great job bringing to the table as well because because what I’ve realized you know was a complete nobody is basically the very first interview I did was no you weren’t Yes. Stop it. Tom Mocha’s was episode your line on the line. Me right now David. And he was a huge inspiration to me so I wanted him as guest number one. And he was talking to a gentleman called John Lee Dumas and so awful who’s is CHEP never heard of him. And I went over to his show and the very first show I listened to was episode 3 2 2 which was yourself and kidding. That was I didn’t know that. Yeah that was the very first episode. And the fascinating thing about it was which got me on the show and this is my sort of join up thought was the fact that everything you see in life is normally about benchmarking against success. You see people already Veja and you go I’d like to do that but it worked for him he’s had this skill he’s got that you know he’s a natural that’s for sure. On that show on 0 5 3 2 2 you hadn’t even lunged and he was saying to you you know when are you going to go and you and I’m going to go on Wednesday or whatever it was. And I tuned in and I listened or whatever you do you click on it you don’t tune into you. But I heard you speak for the very first time and I found it fascinating because I was seeing but not some bouts of somebody finding their way. And you was saying Yeah and I had 17 downloads and it wasn’t that you were looking at success you were looking at somebody finding their flow finding them. Moving on. And that’s right. But that’s what really flavored my show was the fact that you were doing something that seemed natural and you were holding your hands up and you going really. I don’t know if this is going to work but hey if it doesn’t change we’ll move on later on. And remember you did this show and it was it was some chap I don’t remember who was with them on the on the beach somewhere and calls were whizzing past and your battery ran out half way through. Yes and yes you still put out and I thought that’s interesting because what he’s saying back is not that this show has got to be polished and perfect what he’s saying is is a journey and I’m going to improve from that and that be the last time that my battery runs out halfway through. That’s right and it was definitely the last time that happened. Yeah. Yeah it’s a good way to good insight. I see. If I were doing it again yeah I would probably do the same thing again. I was I’ve been always sort of a fan of the let’s just put it out at that at that time. I was leaning more on my hopeful interview skills than I was like ultimate show quality and since I’d already put out a couple of episodes it wasn’t that bad but I really loved the guys story. So I was like yeah there was Harry. Harry Smith was the guy’s name and. And. And I thought yeah let me let me throw that on. And why not. What happened. You know and somewhere. This is what’s so cool about this right. You heard one single episode I did from Johnny Dumas which was like a random occurrence. And look how much it’s affected both of us. Yeah. Just that one thing. So if one little episode you put out catches the right person it can literally be life changing. I will say something. I want your listeners to go to solo our solo our dotcom and I want you to go back to like three. I don’t know let’s say pre 70s so anything from episode like I don’t know one until episode 70 and I want you to click on those posts and read how great David’s comments are for the episodes. They are so insightful and brilliant. And you do such a great job summarizing. I think I even wrote you once and said Do you want to write my show summaries. Remember that you did and it was just that the crux of me doing this and I knew I was just going to stall so cool. So I am and you still you just did it the other day when you were that episode you listened to. You do such a great job summarizing. You’re going to be such a smash successful podcast. David Yeah I have no doubt whatsoever you are going to I hope you will let us be on your show someday when you do these live broadcasts in front of you know a hundred thousand people at the Wembley Stadium. Did you know when you start this and I’m really going to open up here so I don’t really have a Chevez. But when you start based you want it to be so good and you want it to be brought in and you kind of. There were job. You look back on them and you go OK yeah that wasn’t quite where I wanted to be but it was all right. And then you hit sort milestones and you listened back to some of these shows I don’t know if you listen to yours and I thought oh that was a bit closer to what I had in my head my original vision. And I got to show it E.T. and that’s when I suddenly realize Michael that was the host of a show and it was my responsibility to be the host to even I think he was too grateful for people giving up their time to be on my show. I it was a complete mind set. Now I want this to be the biggest show out there. I absolutely do. And it’s all I can focus in on and it’s in many ways it’s killing me or my life is totally out of whack. But all I want is about is the number one thing upset that on any show because it sounds a bit arrogant really I’m upset. Once we’ve stopped recording them when somebody asked me about it that is where I want to be and I want to be join up not as a brand. Exactly as you say. Right. Because it’s one of those things that you kind of go join up towards. What does it mean. And I’m very aware of if you provide quality and content as quality brand in many ways take care of itself. It’s like we always talk in the early episode the name that was always mentioned was Pat Flynn. And you know he’s got that classic smart passive income and you forget that’s a premium brand but actually he’s only three words put together and he’s because he’s provided that great content and quality and value. But it becomes the kind of the trust word where what he’s trying to achieve. That’s right in he that he can live that now. But I actually want I want to focus on something you said just before that you will be bigger than him and so will I. And I know I don’t mean that like he doesn’t have the same aspirations as you do. Right. And I’m saying in terms of podcasts in terms of like Pat wants to speak I’m not speaking for him here but just knowing what I know about him. He he is sort of the crash test dummy of internet marketers. So he does all these really cool things on the web. I want my show to become about like I want to. I want to be interviewing complete legitimate A-listers you know and finding out about their kind of business and so normal journey. That’s where I will see the show going. And because of that if when and if I get to that point. The show the podcast itself will be bigger than all of the internet marketing type podcasts. Does that make sense. Yeah it’ll be way bigger than that. It’ll be more like Nerdist. You know Chris Hardwick gets killer guests on his show and that’s why his podcast is you know number one number two number three on iTunes overall. And so it’s it’s one of those things that that I it’s what I aspire to do as well is to get working within this world like real A-list category of people because I think that they’ll appreciate talking about their journey. And so that’s where I want to head with that. Also I was very strategic and I changed direction. I realized that when I started I was just throwing out the net to anyone and anyone would jump on the show. I would have them round about sort of thing once again I thought to myself no I can’t do this because when I was looking at other people’s shows I was thinking Oh I’ve been on my show I’ve been on my show and it was just the sort of hybrid of people doing the rounds. So I went off in a different direction. So if you listen to episode 88 I had Cathy O’Dowd who was the first woman to hit the summit of Everest from both sides. I’ve got the first civilian astronaut coming on the show. I’ve got a chap over a few years ago was worldwide news because he sold his life on e-bay and he’s just sold his life to Disney and all that kind of stuff. So I realized I had to change direction to become more unique to be more interested by the stories more. Yes. Extract out of them what I wanted to show to the world and that was my original vision but I couldn’t say Eva until later on in the journey. Yeah and that’s really what you’ve done. That’s the whole point. That’s why you will be successful because you’ve you’ve done this in a sort of a different way in your life when you look back to sort of the Philadelphia kid and you riding around on your BMX and all that kind of stuff. Well you just sort of wanting to be the classic sports kid was. If you look back and now we all going to send you back in time soon on the Sermon on the mike. No I was a show off though. I think I think I was you know a performer of some sort and the PA is I keep is that makes my colonial who he is to play better racquetball with an audience. Yes. Every single time. Yeah I think so. I think there’s that’s there that’s in there. It’s in the DNA for sure. I don’t use that a lot but it’s in the DNA. I work better in a performance environment which is presumably why I kind of screw myself on the show intentionally. I don’t I I prepare in a way where I I’ve researched my guest as you have. You know you know and you certainly listen to the show but at times you know a little bit about me and you’re able to then naturally structure questions that that dovetail into my history and that’s what a good interviewer does. I don’t write a lot of questions out sometimes intentionally and that’s because I there’s something about the performance side. I realize now that I’m I’m doing this the shows this this month I’ve got over 300000 downloads for the first time and this is a and I realize so there’s people listening and I have to perform. You know what I like it. It makes me it UPS my game. I’m live on the show. And I think I do that to myself on purpose because because I work better in that environment a lot maybe underpressure a little. Well we’re very similar. It’s fascinating. I feel like I’m finding out the real Marcantonio here. Where is the person behind the that the presenter. Because I am somebody who has spent my life doing training courses and presentations and that’s my job. I’ve never done this kind of thing. It was totally BA and I’m somebody very much likes to be on their own likes no one near them. And then when I suddenly go ping. That’s it. It’s performance time. And I don’t know if it’s showing off or trying to create a different persona for myself because that’s kind of not naturally me. But I do have the ability to raise my game and present a different side to myself if you know me deep down you would say to me different people that the people who know me from seeing where I allow them to see me they would say yeah you it’s like I’m on the mike as you are when you normally doing those things because I’m letting them see what they want to see. Yeah. Yeah I mean I think there’s there’s an element of that and again I want people to understand this is why we and we talked earlier about sort of what John brought to the table. And I’m you know people look at my show and say it’s it’s been it’s it’s been pretty successful in the first 11 months just overall debt is not that’s not a fluke because I didn’t just start in August of 2013 with kind of media. You know I’ve been a professional drummer my whole life. I’ve performed I’ve been on I’ve been a racer I’ve been you know a competitive racquetball player for for many many tournaments for many many years now and before that it was tennis. So I’ve always been performing in some way or the other. I I coached for five years on teaching people social media in front of huge audiences. I’ve played Red Rocks in front of 10000 people like me being on a microphone and being natural at it is not something that happened overnight. It’s a it’s this is something that you walked in with. You’ve been training for years before you turned a mike on yourself. So it’s kind of like Yeah right yeah. You were new to podcasting but not nuda trying to translate a concept from one person to an audience like that’s something you’ve been doing for a long time. So so that’s I think that it’s a bit of a misnomer within our industry that yeah anybody can you know podcast or anybody can start blah blah blah. That’s kind of cool I get it. Yes technically you can turn on an app you can go to boss jock on your iPhone and upload it to clips and you’ve got a podcast but can you do it. Well can you do it so that when someone switches from morning radio or Howard Stern or the BBC to your podcast that they don’t notice a huge drop off in quality or you know sound quality interview quality production quality that’s that’s what I try to bring the table and I think you do the same thing. So is that what you’re saying really and I’m going to play the words of Steve Jobs because he says it very well as well but no experience is wasted. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done in your life you will pull elements and you extract what you need to create your new path. Out 100 percent. Absolutely yes. Everything you’ve done up until this point is does training for you for this next phase. When I have people on their show and we have these episodes called Find your swing I want to find out everything that person has done because it find your swing is like well what do I do. Like what am I naturally gifted at how can I make money off of something that I really enjoy that I’m passionate about that’s what finding your swing is. And it’s I want to find out like what you did when you were a kid. Were you an athlete did you or you or you a professional knitter you like to knit hats. You know like what is it what do you do. And when people can start accessing those things that they’ve done their whole lives they’re really gifted and I like to find ways that we can use those talents in whatever their next business endeavor is. We call about connecting our past to build our future and here. And one of the names as come out is if you really want to know your passion really want to know what you’re naturally good at. Don’t think about what you were doing in adult life because very much you would have been taking a responsibility for a wage or whatever. Look at what you was doing as a kid when you weren’t being paid for it. And if you was a drama when you was a kid and you loved doing it then try and look at something that would do that. And he says that exactly the same way as you do it and you’ll find your swing episodes. That’s right. And I and I love those. Again that’s another instance where we totally put ourselves on the spot. I have a co-host. Her name is Dawn Mars. For those episodes and we never read the questions first. Like I only you know sometimes I glance at them to see just a copy and paste them into my Evernote when we’re doing the show. But we were reading them and answering them live and which again has another element of pressure that we’ve got to come up with an answer and these people are literally like I’ve had people that have taken what we’ve said on the show. They’ve made a business from it like the next day they’ve gone and done it. So it’s it can be a little daunting. And I was going to ask you earlier you know your show’s growing now and this this will be big your show will have a huge audience at some point and I’ve asked this with other people that are in the space. Have you yet felt this sense of responsibility that comes with that the fact that you’re speaking into a microphone and someone’s actually listening to what you’re saying. Yeah. With power comes great responsibility. And it’s funny the very first show I released I got two e-mails and they were from people I’d never met and they were saying thank you so much for putting the show out there and I thought oh my God. And from that moment of being very aware of what I’m saying or being very aware of I don’t know where my words are landing. And of also having a conversation with my wife this afternoon saying if this really takes on. Just as I want it to really take on I’m a little bit scared but I haven’t got the value to provide the audience but I won’t and I don’t know why that is because you know success is everything you want. But I suddenly felt a pressure because I can see the downloads increasing increasing increasing. I can see the work coming towards me and I’m doing this seven days old on my own. There’s not one person that helps me and I’m also balancing other responsibilities as well. So this isn’t my only so restrained I suddenly freaked this afternoon for the exact reason that you said oh my god this is power this is responsibility. I’ve got to be careful with it. Yeah. Have you also found it. I agree. I felt that in some I haven’t had yet. Hey buddy come back to me I’m like you ruin my life but I’ll show it. That’s going to have to happen right. Someone will listen to something you’ve said or I’ve said and they’re going to do it and it’s not going to work for them and we won’t have the details but they’re going to say I listened to you when you were in my life. That’s going to happen. There’s no way it that doesn’t happen. When you’re when you grow this thing to where it can go there’s no way that doesn’t happen. Well think shows a slightly different note because you teach nuts and bolts. I think with my show I talk about hope and I told you why leap of both. Yeah I really think I teach nuts and bolts because that’s that’s I feel like there’s a lot of shows that do that specifically. And I I feel like I teach more of the journey and then the nuts and bolts sort of fall from there. Well I think that’s the same thing. I think what you do you you talk about the journey you get the cogs working in your own brain and brain when you throw out the nuts and bolts which you probably don’t think have got value as such. You’re already using those cokes and you’re thinking yeah I can use that yeah I can tell you that that’s exactly what happened with me. You know I couldn’t see how to do this because I’ve never done this. But just by you having conversations with people you take the element and you take the element and you take that element and what do you do. He’s been up to you as an individual to put it together. Yeah I actually find myself pretty. I can be very socially awkward at the beginning and I sometimes I’ve actually accessed my I’ve switched into interview mode when I’m meeting someone in real life. I just watch on Mike I like my mentally switch on a podcast microphone in front of me and I found it so much easier to have conversations with people that way. So that’s kind of interesting to me is bizarre. I’m getting ready to play Steve Jobs now because I’m fascinated to see your spin on this. And this is the fulcrum of the whole show so this is a job. Don’t be free to do that of course it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward. When I was in college but it was very very clear looking backwards. Ten years later again you can’t connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something your gut destiny life karma whatever because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart even when it leads you off the well-worn path. And that will make all the difference. When I’m going to ask a different question because I think you’ve answered it already but you will say yes you believe in it. But why do you think so many people don’t believe in that. I think that’s a lot. Most people get hung up on the how of something for example I think that we we pick a point be right we pick a point B that’s there’s the dot so I’ve got this I want to I want to do I want to have this show. And to get this show together I need this this this this this this this and we get stuck in the details of the this this this this this instead of. All right I’m going to sort of flow through this. All I want to do is get to that thing. I’m not sure how I’m going to get there yet but I’m going to I don’t really know. And by the time you get there and you look back and go wow that is not the path that all that I was going to take. My favorite metaphor. Or maybe it’s an analogy I forget but for this is if you and I were sitting at a cafe and I there was you know a three story building across the street and I said David there’s a hundred thousand pounds sitting in a bag on the roof of that building across the street. You have 15 minutes to get it. How fast would you be out the door to go get that money. I’d be on the right run the window right but you wouldn’t know how you were going to get it. You had no idea how to get to the roof of that building. You just knew you were getting to the roof. You don’t know if you’re going to you know helicopter down you know if you’re going to call the fire department to take you up there or you know scale like Spiderman but you’re getting to the roof of that building somehow. And I think what successful entrepreneurs do is they just keep their eye on that that you know that bag the bag that’s on the roof. They’re not quite as concerned about the how part. And we very much get concerned about the how part. And the second piece of that is when someone gives you an opportunity I just said this a little earlier when someone gives you an opportunity. Our instinctive reaction is to say no because of this this and this versus just instinctive to say yes and I’m going to figure out how to work out this this and this and that is a huge mental shift even though it’s very subtle. It’s just yes and no. But if you’ll find that people in your world that are really successful or really look like they’re just having a great time. They’re the ones that say yes first and then figure out how it’s going to work after and most of the people that are stuck and they don’t get from that one dot to the next dot. Those are the ones that say no because you know I I can’t live in San Diego because I have kids in school or because I can’t afford the move or because whatever we can come up with 15 different ways. But in reality all that stuff can be worked out. So I think that’s how I would respond to that and I hope that helps someone. So what scares you this is probably my final question before I send you on the mike and you can have a one on one with your younger self. As you all know and you’ve got these rocking and rolling show everything’s going well you’ve just bought these the watch you’ve finished off the last five years and everything’s good and you’ve got a lovely new girlfriend. What scares you. Well when you look at what you need to achieve. What scares me. I have to say I look at the bank being intimidated or being excited. I sort of treat the same way. So I don’t get super excited about everything and I don’t get scared about everything. I gosh I mean I don’t I I can honestly say I don’t have that for the same reason when someone said you know when I was so literally I was scraping up change so I could take in an airport shuttle for a ticket that was paid for by somebody else to go speak in front of 3000 people and that in which I was going to make $5000 or whatever that weekend. A few years ago I I literally had to scrape $8 up so I could take the shuttle like in change so I could take the shuttle to get to the airport that I had. I had $18 in my bank account at the time. And so it wasn’t enough to get the cash out of the machine. So I wasn’t worried about it. I’ve never been worried about stuff like that and I didn’t even know what success was going to look like for me. But I had a feeling that I was destined for it. And that’s the only way I can say is that it was it was very innate and I didn’t know where it was going to come from but I was very patient about it. Now I was also very patient about about you know I knew I was going to meet a great woman at some point and I was able to reach you know like you said read about a year ago but but recently. So I think that I have that that vibe that that it’s the same reason I don’t plan a lot. I just don’t. I’m living very much in the moment as I go day by day. And for better or for worse I don’t plan as much as I probably could or should. But right now I’m not really you know scared about anything. I mean I could say you know the show doesn’t grow at all. But even if it doesn’t I’m live in a great life right now. So I guess I’m not even that scared of that. OK last question before we send you back this time. Is it easier to move forward when you’ve hit rock bottom and you really did hit rock bottom. Yes it is. It’s easier for me to keep perspective on it. I just last weekend went to I went to Napa Valley with my girlfriend’s family and it was a very first class trip like from private private jet from San Diego to Napa Valley which I’ve never done before my life and everything was super exclusive super like Michelin star first class and I was like man I don’t want to be here like this. No I don’t mean like I didn’t want to be at the weekend. I just I don’t want to live in that universe of that sort of high end world. And that’s it. I I remember looking longingly at a train that goes through Napa Valley and it stops at all these different wineries and I’m kind of like Man I wish I would’ve just taken the train and gotten kind of drunk at the third winery and kept going and that would’ve been a really fun day. Instead it was like this you know 12 people serving our table kind of thing and it just wasn’t me. But my my Philly boy sort of like Kragen pragmatist personality carried me through that whole weekend thinking yeah I would be fine with stopping at a fast food place now and going to another winery. We don’t have to go to a hundred dollar plate dinner you know. And so I think if anything it’s given me perspective and there’s one more piece of perspective that in my very very lowest time and it was very low. And I thank you for not like making me go through that again like 40000 other shows have but I had a I remember the current hurricane Katrina had hit the southern United States and it just decimated New Orleans. And this was literally at my lowest time. And I remember looking on the news and seeing like a little 9 year old little black kid who everybody in his family died. Right. And he lost everything like lost every piece of memory he ever had including all of his family members. And he’s this kid who doesn’t have much of an education. He’s a minority. He doesn’t have a lot of opportunity that are coming coming to him and I remember thinking all right no matter what happens I’m a white male with a skill set in United States and that’s not and that’s not to be racially insensitive I’m looking. That was a practical. OK. So no matter what my situation is I can’t complain like I’m starting with these four advantages that a lot of people all over the world don’t have. I will be given opportunities that a lot of people don’t have and that really kept me grounded like that there was this you know that some people had to struggle to get to what I had innately by birth that I had nothing to do with. So that really kept me grounded and it still keeps me grounded to this day is that I always realize that there’s people out there that do not have the same opportunities that I knew the answer. Mike are we going to put you on the Sermon on the mike now. This is when we send you back in time lost a young Marty McFly to have a one on one with yourself and if you could go back in time. What age would you choose and what advice would you say. So I’m going to play the music and when he gets out you’re up. This is the Sermon on the mike. Here. We go with the speed of this. This man. Who. I think that first of all very handsome very very talented man couldn’t congratulate now. If you could work on harnessing that Philly attitude a little bit just over the next few years if you could take the edge off of that. Not everybody is out to get you and focus on building some relationships that you will sustain forever without having that kind of you know screw you Gene. Not Eugene. I don’t know anybody named Eugene. I’m not trying to signal that that will serve you in the future. Yeah. So to some or to to to bring that and I know that was very short but to bring that in I feel like over the last few years I’ve been able to take this. There was a bit of filea attitude like where if someone slighted me in any way that was it they were erased like done. And there was no real going back. It was partially like it was a Scorpio in me that that that’s sort of like had that stinger. And I you know it’s it’s the it’s the patience I have now which is maybe a little bit of it’s I wouldn’t say less judgment because I think judgment makes for good comedy. But but it’s just maybe being a little more empathetic to people’s situations and realizing that that people aren’t always in control of their actions and sometimes they’re going through a learning process as well. And to just instantly give them the guillotine and out of one’s life is not the most productive way to go through things. I don’t do that anymore but I did it for a number of years and I think it was just a reaction to losing my parents and it being so so much. OK Wolf I’m going to lose this anyway I might as well just cut it right off. And I think that didn’t that didn’t serve me for a long time. So I’d fix that. Michael how can our listeners connect with you sir. Well you know this. Oh I know you say you say in an American Xon is better I would say the same thing if you were speaking in a British accent. By the way you going to come on my show some time. I would love to come on your show it oh no great. And Howard Jones I want him to go. Has he been on your show yet. No he isn’t knocking me back. He said he would and not me but I’ve called a few of them that sign up for it. And then you just come down and that’s a drag. Anyway the show is called the Solar Perner hour. The Web site because no one can spell pre-New or is solo our dotcom. And if you’d like some coaching give a coaching program yet. I’ve only been focused on building you audience. That’s good. Well so if anybody needs coaching including you my friend I can’t believe you’re not in solo lab. I want solo lab dotcom and we’d love to have you in our really cool community. Mancow thank you so much for spending time with us tonight joining up those dots on the 100th episode and it’s quite the world’s longest episode of ever done as well. Please come listen. Is. Yeah we were about seven minutes past what we normally do. So come back again when you have more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting up pasts is the best way to build a future. Mr. Michael O’Neill thank you so much. And thank you.

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  • 01:14:39

    Michael ONeal The Host Of The Solopreneur Hour Podcast Joins The Dots On The 100th Show

    · Entrepreneur Success Stories By Join Up Dots, Motivation, Confidence, & Expert Business Coaching To Start Your Online Career

    Todays guests is Mr Michael ONeal, the podcasting master behind the hit Itunes show "The Solopreneur Podcast". The top ranked business show, or The Solohour as it is known to its friends, teaching online marketing and entrepreneurship skills.  Michael is a man who quite simply without him, then I wouldn't be on the mic today. So you know where to send all your complaints too. He is a born entrepreneur with a fascinating story, of successes, setbacks, leaps of faith, and finding his unique path with the guidance of John Lee Dumas and Pat Flynn. Growing up in Philadelphia, the thought of being the host of his own podcast show was the last thing on his mind. He was a normal type of kid, obsessed with sport, finding trouble at school, and generally being a kid. But unfortunately that freedom of thought and energy changed when he was moved from his beloved Philly, and taken down to Florida, and it seems to me this was the start of him looking for his path in life. He didn’t fit in down in the Sunshine State, so as soon as he could, he got himself back up North, and discovered one of the first dots in his life that links him to where he is today…the internet. He was fascinated by the worldwide web, so developed skills to be a web designer. And that was his life for fifteen years, until unfortunately his parents both passed away in a very short time, and he found himself sitting with just $14 dollars in his pocket. He was over 30, with a decision forced upon him. Would he accept the punches that life had dealt him, or would he start fighting back? And that descision was made and he took the steps that made him “Know too much” and not want to work for anyone else again? He was going to become a solopreneur and own his own future. But how did he know he had the skills to be a success in the online arena? How did he know where his true passions lie? And does he regret inspiring guys like me to jump into the pool too? Well lets find out as we bring onto the 100th show to start joining up dots, the man on the mike, the host of the “Solopreneur Hour podcast”, the one and only Mr Michael O’Neal!   For more on the Solohour Podcast go to: The Solopreneur Hour Podcast with Michael O'Neal - Job Security...for the Unemployable By Michael O'Neal Chats with Proudly Unemployable Solopreneurs Like Himself Description They say successful people put their pants on the same way we all do. This show is about watching them put their pants on. Nominated As "Best New Show of 2013" by Stitcher Radio, Our range of guests takes us from comedy, to acting, to the NFL, to UFC and MMA, to Top Music Stars, to Millionaires, to Business Experts, to Real Estate moguls, and everything in between. Guests like Nicole Arbour, Adam Carolla, Hines Ward, Sam Jones, Tucker Max, Jonathan Fields, Derek Halpern, Pat Flynn, Amy Porterfield, John Lee Dumas, Chris Ducker, Chris Brogan, Guy Kawasaki, Mike Johnston, Rich Franklin, and many more, these casual conversations contain tons of action-inducing content wrapped up in an entertaining candy shell.   Yes hello. How are we all? Can you believe it. Episode 100. We have been building up to this for well, it seems like a hundred episodes and we are finally here. We have got a man who who quite simply rose to the top and was going to be the only person who would fit the mantle of being my 100th guest. And I’ve had people banging down the doors. I had Paul McCartney phone up the other day and say I want to be on the show, I’ve heard it’s a big thing and I said to him, “Paul, unless you can get the other four Beatles to join you, it’s not going to happen” We’ve had  David Bowie crying. It’s been pathetic really. So today’s man has been nailed on to do this today, and I’m absolutely delighted that he’s on the show because quite simply without him I wouldn’t be on the microphone. So you know where to send all your complaints to! He’s a man with a fascinating story of successes, setbacks leaps and finding his unique voice. Growing up in Philadelphia he was a normal type of kid obsessed with football at school, and generally being a kid. But unfortunately that freedom of thought and energy changed when he was moved from his beloved Philly and taken down to Florida and it seemed to me this to stop him looking for his path in life. He didn’t fit in down in the sunshine state so soon as he could he got himself back up north and discovered one of the first dots in his life that links him to where he is today the Internet. He was fascinated by a World Wide Web so develop skills to be a web designer and as he’s known for 15 years until unfortunately his parents both passed away in a very short time and he found himself sitting with just fourteen dollars in his pocket. It was over thirty with a decision forced upon him. Would you accept the punches that life had dealt him or would he stop fighting back and that decision was made and he took steps that made him know too much and not want to work for anyone else again. He was going to become a solopreneur and own his own future. But how did he know he had the skills to be a success in the online arena and how did he know where his true passions lie? And does he regret inspiring guys want me to jump into the pool too. Well let’s find out as we bring onto the show to start joining up thoughts the man on the microphone. The host of the Solohour podcast, the only Mr. Michael O’Neal. Well how are you Michael?   Michael O’Neal Oh here is what I can’t even what is happening. I am so flabbergasted by that intro. OK. Two things. Number one that was the best intro I’ve ever had. And formerly Chris Cerrone had that that title of the best in show to a show I’ve ever had. But it was one of the best I’ve ever heard for anybody which is why you are so the right person for this job. Well we’re all thankful you have a microphone in front of you David. Trust me on that. Second thing is I would pay to hear Zombie John Lennon if you could figure out a way to get all four Beatles on the show. That would be cool. David Ralph Well I can do Steve Jobs every day. So I might be able to do them as well. Michael O’Neal Ah so dude that was incredible. I am . I am flummoxed. David Ralph I’m so excited to be on David Ralph’s show. David Ralph – Yeah. Go go and do that because I know you have been doing an action of me on a few shows and we’ll show you a few times night. Yeah you got a little bumper for me on my show. I have these little things that when people ask you me I have a guest on the show that I have them do a little like Hi this is David Ralph and then I get interested in this opener with Mike O’Neill and your voice is so. What’s the first thing I ever said to you. I said you have the ultimate voice for radio. Didn’t I say that you did. Absolutely. David Ralph I haven’t got the face for television but I’ve got a voice for Radio Michael O’Neal Well as long as you’ve got the radio part worked out and you have taken this thing and you’ve run with it my friend. So I’m honored. I’m honored to be at the 100 episode Mark. Thank you. Thank you. David Ralph Absolutely. It is an honor to have you here because it is amazing when you start this thing,because you started your show what was it August 2013. Michael O’Neal Eleven month ago. David Ralph Yeah,11 months ago and now you are rocking and rolling with the best of them you surround yourself with, with the Internet movers and shakers the ziggers and zagers and you know you’re going to be humbled by this. So maybe you won’t. You are an online celebrity of note. When I was saying to people is my show a lot of people sort of touch on the shows of said to me I know who you’re going to have. And I said no you don’t. And I go Yes I know who you’re going to have and ego going and going to no one. And I when Martin O’Neill and I went oh term term how did I know. Really I know. Yes yeah I did it because I had pain you know I don’t want to suck up to you Michael but the early days I didn’t know what the hell I was doing. So I just kept on saying your name over and over again or some kind of benchmark of what I was trying to achieve because you like that you’d come out the gates really and say look like a rocket ship. It’s unbelievable. But you’ve only been around so long because it seems like you’ve been here ever in a day. Does it seems like that to you? Michael O’Neal It is weird. It does feel like it was yesterday that I launched the show. It feels really really recent to me that it happened. So but then at the same time I look at the memories that I’ve had over the last 11 months and all the cool benchmarks and you know different things that have happened and, but it’s packed full of stuff right. So I think if there’s any celebrity it’s sort of a z list celebrity and only at certain conferences. But yeah it’s been it’s been an incredible journey. I couldn’t be happier with how it’s gone. And I can’t wait to see what happens in the next 365. You know I’m really excited about that. David Ralph Is there a plan to the next 365 because you seem to me somebody who is very much stimulated by the now and then. Are you somebody who knows what you’re aiming to achieve? Michael O’Neal No I’m a notorious non planner. Much to the chagrin of my girlfriend who is a total planner and if I didn’t have the you know a calendar app on my phone I would be I would be completely floating out there now because I I wake up and I look at I go OK what do I have to do today. And then I see what’s going on for the day. And sometimes that doesn’t work out for me like in a social situation because people actually make plans to go out and do things. But and I’m not one of them. And all of a sudden it’s Friday I’m like I probably should have planned to do something. Yes I watch movies tonight. But yeah I I’m in an interesting spot right now because I have had this kind of five year run of as you mentioned in the intro bringing myself in this very circuitous path from $14 and not having a clear direction to now. When someone says What do you do. I say I’m a podcast host. And that’s a thing like I. That’s what I do. So I sort of a couple of weeks ago had an occasion to kind of put the cap on that five year journey and now I’m going to be looking ahead but I haven’t quite formulated what that ahead looks like yet. David Ralph And how did you do that? How did you put a cap on that. How did you say that is five years, finished boxed up? Michael O’Neal Well it was as i say I’m I’m a notorious non-celibrator. I’m a guy that usually gets to an achievement and then continues to go without acknowledging it. And I have what is probably a weird story that you’re asking for but hey here comes. So I’ve been a Porsche fan for my whole life. And you may already know where you’re heading with this but I was a Porsche fan my whole life and I don’t know why particularly. I was I had a Volkswagen in high school and I think that maybe planted to see a little bit and I was a car guy and so you know those Porsche ads from the 80s with like the big fender flares and the big wing. I think I was attracted to that and I eventually in 2003 I bought my first vintage Porsche so I bought a 1972 11 and it was a piece of crap. I bought it in New York. I didn’t know better. I drove across country midway across the USA and midway across the country the engine blew up. So that’s how badly. Where were you when this happened. I was in the dead heart middle of Nebraska when it happened in Nebraska I suppose. You it’s nothing. It is hundreds and millions of acres of wide open like cornfields and nothing else. I mean we are I was I have a picture of my car sitting looking like it’s a panther wading in the grass. Waiting to you know to prowl and it’s just sitting there with with like a hundred miles in each direction of grass. There was no middle of nowhere when it happened and I ended up finding a Volkswagen place 60 miles away that towed me in. And the guy dropped the oil pan in the car and just giant chunks of metal came out and I’m like I’m pretty sure that’s not how it’s supposed to be. So I ended up getting a tow truck driving it from Denver where I was living at the time and picking it up. Neither here nor there. So I eventually traded that piece of crap on and got a nicer one. Not when I bought it but in 2005 and I restored this car it took me four years and 2000 hours to restore this car back to better than factory condition when I still have it now. And as part of the dynamic this one in 1969 9/11 and the 69 through 73 nine elevens are very very sought after. They are the iconic 9/11. So when you would see Steve McQueen and a picture of him in the 60s you know you know in LA MA or something driving a 9/11 he was driving one of these sort of 69 to 73 virgins. And one of the sponsors of Porsche in the 60s was a company called Hoyer which was tag Hoyer before Tagg was involved in the mid-80s. So just Hoyer and it’s a guy named Jack Hoyer and he made these beautiful tiny pieces chronographs based on race timers. So you’d have a co-driver with you as a race car and there was a race in Mexico called the career of PanAmericana and the first Porsche Carrera was named after this particular race. So Hoyer as a sponsor of Porsche created a watch based on the chronographs that they used for the race cars and they called it the Hoyer Kura. So this was a very utilitarian type watch you could use it as a race time or you could just click one of the buttons and it had this chronograph on it. It was beautiful automatic beautiful timepiece. And as I’ve been going through this journey for five years this has been on my vision board because these are about three grand and above to get one of these watches. But that was so superfluous for me because I had no i like zero money. And for me to spend three grand on something as excessive as a watch wasn’t even on my radar. So about a month and a half ago now I was in this position where I was like this could be the time. And I scoured the world. I ended up buying a 1972 Hoyer Carrera from a guy in France and it came to my house and it was more beautiful in person than I. I’d never seen one in person is more beautiful than I even thought it could be. And I remember at the mid midday I’d gone to this little swimming pool by my house I belong to this little pool club which is where I work out and I was swimming in the middle of the day two o’clock in the afternoon like Tony Soprano in the middle of a work day and thinking I just did this like this just happened. This 5 year journey comes stops right now like this is where my new journey begins. I’ve gone through this trial by fire. I’ve come out hopefully like a phoenix. I’m in a position where I can buy this watch now which is insane to think about and I’m peaceful and grateful for the life that I’ve built. And so that for me was the cap of a five year struggle. I mean a real struggle to get to where I am today. David Ralph Mr. O’Neill is a perfect story. It started and it made me think if I’m ever in a pub quiz and a question about Portia comes up you’re my man that does it to Luli you are obsessed by that and you. The amount that you were quoting then. Michael O’Neal Ah. I mean I think. I think it’s kind of a lifetime obsession for people that become afflicted by it. In fact there’s a great ad I will send it to you on YouTube and there’s an ad for the new Porsche about the time the new Porsche Carrera ad and it was there it’s a little boy. And he’s a little kid in his classroom and he’s daydreaming and on 9/11 drives by him and you just see him like looking out the window and his pencil drops and you know then he he gets in trouble. And then he runs to the you know was on his BMX bike to the Porsche dealer after school and and he you know he ends up sitting in this car and the steering wheel is bigger than he is and you see Mike raised his head he’s 12 or something and that he goes to the dealer or the guy goes you have a card and the guy goes yeah here you go and he goes I’ll see in 20 years. And then there’s this great voice over that says something like there’s a there’s a there’s a particular moment that happens with you know a Porsche fan. There’s that time you want one. Then there’s the time you get one and for the truly affected afflicted there’s the 20 years in between. And it just like it gives you the chills and my buddies sent it. I sense my body goes man. Pass the Kleenex. So I guess there is a real passion there for this. It’s a very visceral feeling that is so different because of the way they build their cars and because the engines in the rear and it’s a totally different experience than you have with with any other vehicle that yeah there becomes a real passion a real obsession with him. Did you read that because this shows about joining up dots, but do you remember as a young kid having the same kind of obsessive compulsive in both words and things when when you was a little kid running around the streets of Philly pretending you Rocky did most will keep you alive without paying him for the Michael O’Neal No no no. I was a BMX kid. Now I was I was in a suburb. I was the only gentile I was in a super Jewish town north of Philadelphia. And I was a BMX or I rode my BMX bike. I mean I was from 1984 until I mean I was racing bikes from 84 until 2000. David Ralph So Rocky wasn’t on your radar at all? Michael O’Neal No not at all. Tony Hawk and Dave you know Dave Voelker and Matt Hoffman and you know BMX guys Bob horo. They were all on my radar. I’ll tell you here’s here’s a little here’s a join up dot that is current. I rode an entire daywith real wow I just blanked on his name. That’s embarrassing really. I’m killing myself right now this is bad radio. David Ralph What  does he look like? Michael O’Neal He’s a big famous director now and he will watch films John Malkovich. Being John Malkovich won a friggin Oscar. We’re ready. Come on. With it and it might seem seamless Spike Jones for crying out loud. David Ralph Spike Jones Michael O’Neal Yeah Spike Jones the director was a dude I rode with at a place called Rockville BMX and we were just BMX or dudes riding around. And then he he became a photographer for one of the BMX magazines and then started doing filming because he did Beastie Boys first video I forget which one and then started doing independent films then did Being John Malkovich and now he is like an international you know massive director like one of the best most well-reputed directors in the world. And it was kind of cool. I mean so he did adaptation he did Being John Malkovich Where the Wild Things Are You know just just done amazing stuff. So the Academy Awards. And so a pretty pretty bad ass. He did her you know the movie Her most recent Yeah that’s Spike Jones. David Ralph So is there any similarity between the young kid in Philly and now, because from what I see across the pond and I listen into the conversations that you have with your internet guys and it does seem from this side of the pond that you’ve got a gang of friends and followers and whatever that basically control the Internet. I had Rick Mulready on the show. And I said “Do you ever feel like slipping something into Pat Flynns drink, so that the next morning you turn on your screen and see if there’s a black hole on the Internet because he’s not functioning at this time because it kind of seems not” But he wouldn’t be pushed in to slipping a Mickey into his drink in any shape or form. But you seem a little bit edgy to most of them. Michael O’Neal Yeah. David Ralph Is that because you’re from Philly. Is it because he’s a very sort of industrial Con. Its a real city you know. Its like a working class city when you’re there. Michael O’Neal Yeah I think the the edginess is something that I’m kind of a known for. I don’t know if you curse on your show but I’m kind of a no B.S. kind of guy and I’ve never been one to straddle the fence very very much. And I think what happened with Irwin what happens with a lot of these sort of Internet type celebrities is that they’re so concerned about getting the broadest audience that they sometimes come off as being a little bit milktoast or a little bit vanilla. And I come from a totally different perspective where when you think about media you think about New York Philadelphia Boston. These are like the media centers of the world. It’s where you know you go to Boston College that’s one of the broadcasting school that’s where Howard Stern went. That’s where many very famous broadcasters come from those places I went to Temple University which has an incredible media department. And when you look at the people that are iconic in history they’re not people that are vanilla. There are people that have strong opinions one way or the other and people either love them or they hate them but they’re definitely them. So they definitely have a presence. They definitely have a voice that’s unique to them. And I think I always think it took me a little while to settle into that on my show but it is ultimately as you as I developed the show and I developed my own voice I realized hey I’m not in the interest of pleasing everybody. Like that’s not my job. My job is to talk from my perspective on certain issues and try to extract really good business advice from people without them or my audience really seeing what I’m doing. And one of my favorite quotes to that is and you probably heard me say before but which just never let him see your work. You know that’s from Bill Cosby also from my alma mater Temple University in Philly and that basically means that go through your process ask your questions you know have questions written down but you don’t have to be so blatant about it. You can you can ease through you know great standup comedians do this like Louis C.K. talks you know he’ll be sputtering and angry and going through all this process on stage and you think that that’s just how he is. You laugh at his angry energy but he knows all the beats within that he knows exactly what he’s doing within that realm and that is that is him not letting you see him work on him. David Ralph When your on the mike then how much is you now being absolutely authentic and how much is it creating a mood creating an atmosphere on the show. Michael O’Neal Well it can’t. Can’t you have both? David Ralph Oh I don’t know CAN you? Michael O’Neal What are you asking? Are you asking how much is sort of pre-written and how much is off the cuff? David Ralph Well on this show for example some of the things I say I only say to get a reaction from the guest. You know do I really mean it kind of. Do I think that they will go against it. Yes. So I will say it. How much do you actually say that you believe 100 percent. Michael O’Neal Well first of all you do that because you understand this and you’re a pro. I mean this is a very natural place for you to end up. So I think that that I do very similar things to you, as you do just because yeah sometimes you want to extract some stuff from a guest that is being difficult. But yeah I mean I’m pretty authentic dude. I there’s not a lot there’s people that have met me in real life and go Oh you’re exactly like you are on the show. Yeah Im exactly like I’m in the show. I turn it on and I talk so I don’t have this, I’m not affected in any way. I just go. David Ralph So you’re not like you haven’t got a human graphic equalizer when you press record you just kind of increase certain parts of your personality. Michael O’Neal Not really. No. This is pretty much how I am. Yeah I’ll speak like I speak. I’m probably slightly dirtier in real life. David Ralph Well you don’t know where the words will land do you! Michael O’Neal I probably curse a little more which is fine. I’ve done a few podcasts now where I was allowed to do that and it did make it really nice. David Ralph Are you in the same situation as me because I used to listen to your show all the time and it was a staple diet during my transition at that time and now I’m doing this. One of the failures of me is that I don’t get time to listen to other people’s shows. I listen to your one  the other day because I just suddenly realized I had a gap but you almost become an island of your own success where before I used to listen to shows and I used to think oh I’ll take a bit of it and I’ll take a bit of it and become like a magpie. And now I don’t know what vibe is out there and I don’t know whether I’m being edgy or whatever. It just seems to be you. Speaking to the mic and I throw it out to the world and hopefully it goes well. It seems to be a fault of mine, and so do you have the same thing? Michael O’Neal No I’m exactly the same way. I’d say partially by choice and partially by by time. So when I when I do have time to consume podcasts I don’t tend to go business. I tend to go comedy. And lately I tend to go NFL football. I listen to podcasts related to that because I want to be able to clock out a little bit when I do want real inspiration. I’ve been listening to here’s the thing with Alec Baldwin it’s WNYC. I’ve not heard a better intro or production or interview style than that show. It’s his in his intros are nothing short of brilliant. I mean they’re amazing how he brings a guest on an and then how he interviews and his questions are very in-depth and he’s such a pro that it makes it really easy for me to like look at that bar and go OK that’s where the soul open for hours going. That’s what I do. I actually honestly David I find now the more that I get into this show the more I almost can’t stand other people’s shows like there so few that can capture my attention and that I feel like are being done well even with really good friends of mine that do shows I just go and that is almost unlistenable. You know it’s so. So I just don’t I definitely look far above the kind of Internet Marketing slash business world for inspiration on how I want to run mine. David Ralph because the only two that I listen to now is yours. And I went on started. I wanted to listen to every single one. And but the nerdiest and there the only two reasons. Yeah great and Nerdist is good for a number of reasons. David Ralph Yeah I just like the way it kind of flows and you don’t even know it started and it just kind of teases right. Michael O’Neal That’s right. Yeah they just start it. We kind of did that today didn’t we. David Ralph Yeah absolutely and that was the good stuff. Michael O’Neal And we talked for a while before we started recording. You know me I mean it just felt like yeah hit it. Go for it. We’ll start like Nerdist. But yeah no I think that there’s a sense there’s such a glutton of new shows out there and I don’t. but if I’m being opinionated I don’t. There’s a lot of places where people are learning quote on quote how to podcast. And I think they’re feeding them crap information.So often a big problem. David Ralph And I know he’s a mate of yours and I wish him all the success in the world, but the problem is so many people are trying to duplicate John Lee Dumas and that’s not right. He came first and he created the structure of his show, and whether you like that format or whatever that is he’s and he’s made in his own by being him. And I hear these shows and after about three minutes I think oh my god it’s the same thing again. Now I will listen to your shows and I will go all the way through. But people miss a trick don’t lay up coming back to my all the time is finding your authentic self playing to your streams. And and if you do that you create a bigger loyalty. You know if you are totally yourself people either hate you or like you but the ones that like you will love you. And that’s where these people are missing out because they’re not even being authentic to themselves they’re just kind of a middle ground. Michael O’Neal Yeah. And John would tell you and I’ve said this a million times in front of him and said do you the success of your show or his show has nothing to do with his format. And it has nothing do with him as a podcast for that all. It has everything to do with the fact that he has a financial background writes great marketing copy and has a schedule and a rigidity too. He has a military rigidity because he was in the military to his to his business. And unless you come with that exact kind of background you will not have success in that way. People think that because of the way he does his show because it’s structured and because he has these set questions and does it seven days a week that that’s why he’s successful and is completely irrelevant to that. So the problem is is like you said so many people listen to that or they go to podcasters paradise and they learn a certain way to do things. And I’m almost diametrically opposed to every single thing that they’re learning. So it’s like it’s like man I it’s it’s frustrating for me in that way. And I shouldn’t say that like I want to rephrase that I’m not time actually oppose everything they’re learning what I’m what I’m worried about is that the things that I think make podcasting successful aren’t emphasized in a lot of training courses. And like you just said finding your own voice is a number one you have to be successful. You have to find your own voice and you have to have a great brand and it’s not something that people speak about a lot. Like I took a lot of cliff Ravenscroft stuff. I’ve taken all the stuff. I’ve seen a number of course is out there a lot of them don’t pay a lot of attention to that piece and I worry that with this next phase of podcasting and what’s you know since everyone’s starting a show they’re going to find it a lot harder to sustain it unless they’ve found their own voice on their voice. And and it’s within this brand that they’ve really created. So we’ll see. But that’s the jury’s out on that. David Ralph Did you really have to love doing this because I’m going to play a speech in my Jim Carrey and I’m actually I’m going to play now and we’re going to talk afterwards. This is Jim Carrey. Jim Carrey Sound Clip My father could have been a great comedian but he didn’t believe that that was possible for him. And so he made a conservative choice. Instead he got a safe job as an accountant. And when I was 12 years old. He was let go from that safe job. And our family had to do whatever we could to survive. I learned many great lessons from my father. Not the least of which was that you can fail at what you don’t want. So you might as well take a chance on doing what you love. David Ralph Is that the true message that we should be getting across? Michael O’Neal Yes it is unfortunately the connecting of the dots joining of those two dots which is I found this thing that I love and now I have to figure out how to get paid for it is difficult. That’s a difficult journey. And that’s my that was my five year journey. Right. First not even knowing what it was that I loved. I had no idea I was going to podcast five years ago but I had an initial foray into public speaking. I started teaching social media on stage and I ended up traveling and going to 17 cities teaching people how to use social media to grow their business and I found it very like oh this is something I could be good at. And then that morphed into doing back end production on a podcast for a year and a half and just starting to understand the podcasting industry that finally morphed into me starting my own show and here we are. But it was a five year journey to find that you know like I had indicators of it and if someone in 2009 it said hey do you want to get. You want to make six figures and be a public speaker. I be like totally that be great. But at the time I had nothing to speak about. And now I do. So it’s kind of a I I do feel like you have to find something that will and you’ve probably seen this in your life with your show something that will make you walk into that studio and record an episode even if you’re exhausted or not in the mood or whatever because you truly love it and you’re excited about it. Oh yesterday. That’s how I am. Yeah I’ve had times when I’ve recorded 12 shows back to back and now I’ve. Why just because I knew I was going to do it seven days a week show and that was the hardest time I had. I had no internet for two weeks he just crashed on me and I suddenly panic but I didn’t have enough to cover. And I was going away as well. So yes seven days a week he goes out and I needed the boke. And so I did it and I started off at six o’clock in the morning and I just went through through move through and I edited and I did everything in the gap between when I recorded the next one and he just went seamlessly. And when I pressed record yes I was on I was on. Once I was off it was just like I was you know on drugs or something I was just slump too much. But it wasn’t until the very last ones that I realized actually about that passion that you’re talking about the ability to actually do it when you’re tired. I’ve gone past by and I was actually feeling ill. And I remember doing this show and the sweat was pouring off me and I listened back to and it doesn’t sound like it but I realized brain actually no you’ve got to look up to yourself as much as you do actually doing something. Yeah I’m very committed to that. DAVID It’s I have I have three sort of pillars if you will that I do I think make a good soul a partner or a successful soul a partner. And there’s there’s time freedom there’s financial freedom and there’s location freedom. And so the first one is really easy time freedom simple you walk into your boss’s office tell him to go screw himself and then you have time freedom. There you go. Location freedom. You can pretty much just get in a car and go somewhere that we have that kind of freedom in the U.K. and in the United States. Yeah there’s some complications in between. But technically you can just go do that. It’s the financial freedom part. That’s the tricky part of the three. That is a little harder. But I find that I’m so unwilling to compromise my time freedom. I’ve turned down so many more so much more money because it would compromise my time freedom like I could have a lot more coaching clients and a lot more people in my my group coaching. It’s called Solo lab. But with that I would have to commit another couple of days to taking care of them and I’d I’m willing to do that at all. Like i will i love my life the way it is right now and I can be comfortable financially I can go do fun things. And I don’t have to compromise that. And you know hopefully I can continue to grow and continue to you know make more money maybe have more speaking gigs things like that but I don’t intend on working any harder. I just want to you know work smarter maybe try to over deliver a little more to my audience and that’s what I’m looking for. Well was sensible and that’s exactly what I want to do as well because I hate these people and it’s almost like a badge of honor. But I’ve quit in nine to five job. And then you go yes I’m an online marketing do I do this I’m a diva and I cook my time and I’m doing 80 hours a week and I think right. Right. What the hell do you do that. Why don’t you just do two days hard work and have the rest of the time of it. It seems stupid that I say that. That’s right. And it’s. It does. It is counter intuitive. The thing is when my parents passed away you mentioned this in the intro when they did that. My perspective on time completely shifted and I just I. Life’s too short. So I am very much a person that says both. When someone says would you like this or this. I say both. When I get an opportunity to do something I say yes. Win you know and I just do it like it’s a thing that I have committed to and not mentally like I don’t just go yeah this is what I’m going to do from now on. I just do it now I just say yeah let’s do that. That sounds fun. Let’s just go for that. I’m going to go on a hike. Yeah. Great book a ticket. You know and we just do it. And I found that that has served me really well because when I do that and I put that as a priority in my life then the the stuff that I’m not so thrilled about I still end up having to do it. It still fills in the blanks but my priority is to really extract the most that I can out of my life and I’ll tell you not a person that does that well I think as John John Lee Dumas he works probably a little more like the person you were just mentioning. He works a lot but he’s also great at saying yes when when something comes across his desk he goes yeah lets do that. And it’s like on the schedule. And I think that’s that’s part of I think what that’s part of success. To me that’s part of what success feels like is being able to do that. I remember hearing an interview with Billy Joel and the interviewer said to him Billy you’ve sold X squillion albums and singles and you’ve done these tours and you play Madison Square Garden five straight nights. What has success given you. And he just said time and that was it. He can wake up each morning and if he doesn’t want to do something he doesn’t. And that single word resonated with me hugely especially when I was in my 9 to 5 job and I realized then that things were not right. And why should I be doing a nine to five job when there are options I suppose. I began to know too much. And then once you know too much brain you realize you can’t ever go back. Michael O’Neal Yeah. It’s really really is a one way street. It also but that carries over as well into my personal life as well. And I think when the there’s ever such a different confidence now just in my life in general and I think Billy Joel would sort sort of anybody that reached a level of success has this this this underlying confidence about them that is very attractive not only to you know the opposite sex but it’s what attracts other successful people to you. There’s just there’s a subtlety in actions and just how really how you go through life when you’re confident that is very attractive to you know both both people both sexes and that is something that people pick up on pretty easily. You become a success back humor don’t you. You know the old Jim rhône thing about you know the average of you know five people to surrender a lot of people I talked to. Yeah. I mean a crappy job and all these miserable people all the time. How can I surround myself. And one of the things I say to them is you know focus on success because the more success you get and the more competence as you say they end up a successful people get sucked into your world and suddenly you created what he was saying. It’s not easy to do. But it certainly is a mindset that starts moving in that direction. That’s right. And you it’s funny you just asked that question of me is how do you now you’re on it you’re on an island so you’re you’re in the UK you’re not. I’m in San Diego so I get to have a bunch of people around me at all times. I will say though we don’t get together. I mean you know we get together as friends but I’m not in a mastermind with any of these people around me. We don’t sit there and me out. So you know to answer your question I’m mean answer answered on my show tomorrow. But you’ve got to join a group you’ve got to join a group mastermind of some sort. And there’s really no other way. If you if you’re not surrounded by those five people that that you feel are motivating you in a way that that is bettering your life and hopefully their lives. You’ve got to separate from those people and find the people that are doing that and pretty much everyone I know that’s in this you know business Internet Marketing podcasting world has some sort of coaching program. And my best advice is to get people that you really enjoy like how they speak and like how they deliver and join their group and that’s it. And you know once you’re a part of that community you’ll be a lot more apt to be motivated you know learn the things you want to learn. It’s part of the reason why I don’t need to listen to podcasts anymore because I have so many people in my group that are doing cool things. I get to learn about all the cool new stuff without having to go listen. They sort of comes to me. So so do you now feel that you’re ahead of the curve. Because when when you started the show I remember you saying it’s the Wild West and now it seems like every man Dogan whatever has made me a podcast. So do you think now about you it’s not the Wild West but you actually ahead of the curve. It’s good. Get a question. Yes and no I think it’s still the wild west. I think that people in this environment aren’t necessarily looking in the right direction to advance their business where they should be. Let me clarify that. I think inspiration for how someone’s podcast get better gets better doesn’t happen within the new podcasting community. It happens with old media. Then you go look at how you all learn how to interview you go study Howard Stern if you want to learn how to produce an an excellent show. You go you know you look at and some an NPR show or something like that like a where a BBC show something that you know pay close attention to how people are introducing guests and what they’re how they do their ads and how they integrate you know clips from this person’s body of work into their intro or into the show itself. So I think there is really a professional side to this that will ultimately come out. For me personally what I’ve realized over the last couple of months and this is something that I think you can you can sort of strap on as a badge of honor as well is that I’m a better interviewer than most. Just in general I’m more intuitive and I have more range of knowledge so I can connect those dots. You know I can join those dots. And that’s what makes for a compelling and entertaining interview no matter who you are it’s the people that have the pre-scripted questions that I think are really going to struggle because that’s that’s very exhausting to an audience. So on one side I think I’m still really ahead of the curve in that. I come from this and as do you come from this background this history of paying attention to interviewers and then sort of bringing this natural ability to the microphone that 99 percent of people don’t have. And that’s the building not only to interview someone in a business sense and extract what they do for a living but actually make an entertaining hour of programming for someone. And in my opinion they can get the business data from 80000 podcasts that are on iTunes but it’s really hard to get entertainment out of it. And that’s what I’m trying to bring to the table and I think that’s what you do a really great job bringing to the table as well because because what I’ve realized you know was a complete nobody is basically the very first interview I did was no you weren’t Yes. Stop it. Tom Mocha’s was episode your line on the line. Me right now David. And he was a huge inspiration to me so I wanted him as guest number one. And he was talking to a gentleman called John Lee Dumas and so awful who’s is CHEP never heard of him. And I went over to his show and the very first show I listened to was episode 3 2 2 which was yourself and kidding. That was I didn’t know that. Yeah that was the very first episode. And the fascinating thing about it was which got me on the show and this is my sort of join up thought was the fact that everything you see in life is normally about benchmarking against success. You see people already Veja and you go I’d like to do that but it worked for him he’s had this skill he’s got that you know he’s a natural that’s for sure. On that show on 0 5 3 2 2 you hadn’t even lunged and he was saying to you you know when are you going to go and you and I’m going to go on Wednesday or whatever it was. And I tuned in and I listened or whatever you do you click on it you don’t tune into you. But I heard you speak for the very first time and I found it fascinating because I was seeing but not some bouts of somebody finding their way. And you was saying Yeah and I had 17 downloads and it wasn’t that you were looking at success you were looking at somebody finding their flow finding them. Moving on. And that’s right. But that’s what really flavored my show was the fact that you were doing something that seemed natural and you were holding your hands up and you going really. I don’t know if this is going to work but hey if it doesn’t change we’ll move on later on. And remember you did this show and it was it was some chap I don’t remember who was with them on the on the beach somewhere and calls were whizzing past and your battery ran out half way through. Yes and yes you still put out and I thought that’s interesting because what he’s saying back is not that this show has got to be polished and perfect what he’s saying is is a journey and I’m going to improve from that and that be the last time that my battery runs out halfway through. That’s right and it was definitely the last time that happened. Yeah. Yeah it’s a good way to good insight. I see. If I were doing it again yeah I would probably do the same thing again. I was I’ve been always sort of a fan of the let’s just put it out at that at that time. I was leaning more on my hopeful interview skills than I was like ultimate show quality and since I’d already put out a couple of episodes it wasn’t that bad but I really loved the guys story. So I was like yeah there was Harry. Harry Smith was the guy’s name and. And. And I thought yeah let me let me throw that on. And why not. What happened. You know and somewhere. This is what’s so cool about this right. You heard one single episode I did from Johnny Dumas which was like a random occurrence. And look how much it’s affected both of us. Yeah. Just that one thing. So if one little episode you put out catches the right person it can literally be life changing. I will say something. I want your listeners to go to solo our solo our dotcom and I want you to go back to like three. I don’t know let’s say pre 70s so anything from episode like I don’t know one until episode 70 and I want you to click on those posts and read how great David’s comments are for the episodes. They are so insightful and brilliant. And you do such a great job summarizing. I think I even wrote you once and said Do you want to write my show summaries. Remember that you did and it was just that the crux of me doing this and I knew I was just going to stall so cool. So I am and you still you just did it the other day when you were that episode you listened to. You do such a great job summarizing. You’re going to be such a smash successful podcast. David Yeah I have no doubt whatsoever you are going to I hope you will let us be on your show someday when you do these live broadcasts in front of you know a hundred thousand people at the Wembley Stadium. Did you know when you start this and I’m really going to open up here so I don’t really have a Chevez. But when you start based you want it to be so good and you want it to be brought in and you kind of. There were job. You look back on them and you go OK yeah that wasn’t quite where I wanted to be but it was all right. And then you hit sort milestones and you listened back to some of these shows I don’t know if you listen to yours and I thought oh that was a bit closer to what I had in my head my original vision. And I got to show it E.T. and that’s when I suddenly realize Michael that was the host of a show and it was my responsibility to be the host to even I think he was too grateful for people giving up their time to be on my show. I it was a complete mind set. Now I want this to be the biggest show out there. I absolutely do. And it’s all I can focus in on and it’s in many ways it’s killing me or my life is totally out of whack. But all I want is about is the number one thing upset that on any show because it sounds a bit arrogant really I’m upset. Once we’ve stopped recording them when somebody asked me about it that is where I want to be and I want to be join up not as a brand. Exactly as you say. Right. Because it’s one of those things that you kind of go join up towards. What does it mean. And I’m very aware of if you provide quality and content as quality brand in many ways take care of itself. It’s like we always talk in the early episode the name that was always mentioned was Pat Flynn. And you know he’s got that classic smart passive income and you forget that’s a premium brand but actually he’s only three words put together and he’s because he’s provided that great content and quality and value. But it becomes the kind of the trust word where what he’s trying to achieve. That’s right in he that he can live that now. But I actually want I want to focus on something you said just before that you will be bigger than him and so will I. And I know I don’t mean that like he doesn’t have the same aspirations as you do. Right. And I’m saying in terms of podcasts in terms of like Pat wants to speak I’m not speaking for him here but just knowing what I know about him. He he is sort of the crash test dummy of internet marketers. So he does all these really cool things on the web. I want my show to become about like I want to. I want to be interviewing complete legitimate A-listers you know and finding out about their kind of business and so normal journey. That’s where I will see the show going. And because of that if when and if I get to that point. The show the podcast itself will be bigger than all of the internet marketing type podcasts. Does that make sense. Yeah it’ll be way bigger than that. It’ll be more like Nerdist. You know Chris Hardwick gets killer guests on his show and that’s why his podcast is you know number one number two number three on iTunes overall. And so it’s it’s one of those things that that I it’s what I aspire to do as well is to get working within this world like real A-list category of people because I think that they’ll appreciate talking about their journey. And so that’s where I want to head with that. Also I was very strategic and I changed direction. I realized that when I started I was just throwing out the net to anyone and anyone would jump on the show. I would have them round about sort of thing once again I thought to myself no I can’t do this because when I was looking at other people’s shows I was thinking Oh I’ve been on my show I’ve been on my show and it was just the sort of hybrid of people doing the rounds. So I went off in a different direction. So if you listen to episode 88 I had Cathy O’Dowd who was the first woman to hit the summit of Everest from both sides. I’ve got the first civilian astronaut coming on the show. I’ve got a chap over a few years ago was worldwide news because he sold his life on e-bay and he’s just sold his life to Disney and all that kind of stuff. So I realized I had to change direction to become more unique to be more interested by the stories more. Yes. Extract out of them what I wanted to show to the world and that was my original vision but I couldn’t say Eva until later on in the journey. Yeah and that’s really what you’ve done. That’s the whole point. That’s why you will be successful because you’ve you’ve done this in a sort of a different way in your life when you look back to sort of the Philadelphia kid and you riding around on your BMX and all that kind of stuff. Well you just sort of wanting to be the classic sports kid was. If you look back and now we all going to send you back in time soon on the Sermon on the mike. No I was a show off though. I think I think I was you know a performer of some sort and the PA is I keep is that makes my colonial who he is to play better racquetball with an audience. Yes. Every single time. Yeah I think so. I think there’s that’s there that’s in there. It’s in the DNA for sure. I don’t use that a lot but it’s in the DNA. I work better in a performance environment which is presumably why I kind of screw myself on the show intentionally. I don’t I I prepare in a way where I I’ve researched my guest as you have. You know you know and you certainly listen to the show but at times you know a little bit about me and you’re able to then naturally structure questions that that dovetail into my history and that’s what a good interviewer does. I don’t write a lot of questions out sometimes intentionally and that’s because I there’s something about the performance side. I realize now that I’m I’m doing this the shows this this month I’ve got over 300000 downloads for the first time and this is a and I realize so there’s people listening and I have to perform. You know what I like it. It makes me it UPS my game. I’m live on the show. And I think I do that to myself on purpose because because I work better in that environment a lot maybe underpressure a little. Well we’re very similar. It’s fascinating. I feel like I’m finding out the real Marcantonio here. Where is the person behind the that the presenter. Because I am somebody who has spent my life doing training courses and presentations and that’s my job. I’ve never done this kind of thing. It was totally BA and I’m somebody very much likes to be on their own likes no one near them. And then when I suddenly go ping. That’s it. It’s performance time. And I don’t know if it’s showing off or trying to create a different persona for myself because that’s kind of not naturally me. But I do have the ability to raise my game and present a different side to myself if you know me deep down you would say to me different people that the people who know me from seeing where I allow them to see me they would say yeah you it’s like I’m on the mike as you are when you normally doing those things because I’m letting them see what they want to see. Yeah. Yeah I mean I think there’s there’s an element of that and again I want people to understand this is why we and we talked earlier about sort of what John brought to the table. And I’m you know people look at my show and say it’s it’s been it’s it’s been pretty successful in the first 11 months just overall debt is not that’s not a fluke because I didn’t just start in August of 2013 with kind of media. You know I’ve been a professional drummer my whole life. I’ve performed I’ve been on I’ve been a racer I’ve been you know a competitive racquetball player for for many many tournaments for many many years now and before that it was tennis. So I’ve always been performing in some way or the other. I I coached for five years on teaching people social media in front of huge audiences. I’ve played Red Rocks in front of 10000 people like me being on a microphone and being natural at it is not something that happened overnight. It’s a it’s this is something that you walked in with. You’ve been training for years before you turned a mike on yourself. So it’s kind of like Yeah right yeah. You were new to podcasting but not nuda trying to translate a concept from one person to an audience like that’s something you’ve been doing for a long time. So so that’s I think that it’s a bit of a misnomer within our industry that yeah anybody can you know podcast or anybody can start blah blah blah. That’s kind of cool I get it. Yes technically you can turn on an app you can go to boss jock on your iPhone and upload it to clips and you’ve got a podcast but can you do it. Well can you do it so that when someone switches from morning radio or Howard Stern or the BBC to your podcast that they don’t notice a huge drop off in quality or you know sound quality interview quality production quality that’s that’s what I try to bring the table and I think you do the same thing. So is that what you’re saying really and I’m going to play the words of Steve Jobs because he says it very well as well but no experience is wasted. It doesn’t matter what you’ve done in your life you will pull elements and you extract what you need to create your new path. Out 100 percent. Absolutely yes. Everything you’ve done up until this point is does training for you for this next phase. When I have people on their show and we have these episodes called Find your swing I want to find out everything that person has done because it find your swing is like well what do I do. Like what am I naturally gifted at how can I make money off of something that I really enjoy that I’m passionate about that’s what finding your swing is. And it’s I want to find out like what you did when you were a kid. Were you an athlete did you or you or you a professional knitter you like to knit hats. You know like what is it what do you do. And when people can start accessing those things that they’ve done their whole lives they’re really gifted and I like to find ways that we can use those talents in whatever their next business endeavor is. We call about connecting our past to build our future and here. And one of the names as come out is if you really want to know your passion really want to know what you’re naturally good at. Don’t think about what you were doing in adult life because very much you would have been taking a responsibility for a wage or whatever. Look at what you was doing as a kid when you weren’t being paid for it. And if you was a drama when you was a kid and you loved doing it then try and look at something that would do that. And he says that exactly the same way as you do it and you’ll find your swing episodes. That’s right. And I and I love those. Again that’s another instance where we totally put ourselves on the spot. I have a co-host. Her name is Dawn Mars. For those episodes and we never read the questions first. Like I only you know sometimes I glance at them to see just a copy and paste them into my Evernote when we’re doing the show. But we were reading them and answering them live and which again has another element of pressure that we’ve got to come up with an answer and these people are literally like I’ve had people that have taken what we’ve said on the show. They’ve made a business from it like the next day they’ve gone and done it. So it’s it can be a little daunting. And I was going to ask you earlier you know your show’s growing now and this this will be big your show will have a huge audience at some point and I’ve asked this with other people that are in the space. Have you yet felt this sense of responsibility that comes with that the fact that you’re speaking into a microphone and someone’s actually listening to what you’re saying. Yeah. With power comes great responsibility. And it’s funny the very first show I released I got two e-mails and they were from people I’d never met and they were saying thank you so much for putting the show out there and I thought oh my God. And from that moment of being very aware of what I’m saying or being very aware of I don’t know where my words are landing. And of also having a conversation with my wife this afternoon saying if this really takes on. Just as I want it to really take on I’m a little bit scared but I haven’t got the value to provide the audience but I won’t and I don’t know why that is because you know success is everything you want. But I suddenly felt a pressure because I can see the downloads increasing increasing increasing. I can see the work coming towards me and I’m doing this seven days old on my own. There’s not one person that helps me and I’m also balancing other responsibilities as well. So this isn’t my only so restrained I suddenly freaked this afternoon for the exact reason that you said oh my god this is power this is responsibility. I’ve got to be careful with it. Yeah. Have you also found it. I agree. I felt that in some I haven’t had yet. Hey buddy come back to me I’m like you ruin my life but I’ll show it. That’s going to have to happen right. Someone will listen to something you’ve said or I’ve said and they’re going to do it and it’s not going to work for them and we won’t have the details but they’re going to say I listened to you when you were in my life. That’s going to happen. There’s no way it that doesn’t happen. When you’re when you grow this thing to where it can go there’s no way that doesn’t happen. Well think shows a slightly different note because you teach nuts and bolts. I think with my show I talk about hope and I told you why leap of both. Yeah I really think I teach nuts and bolts because that’s that’s I feel like there’s a lot of shows that do that specifically. And I I feel like I teach more of the journey and then the nuts and bolts sort of fall from there. Well I think that’s the same thing. I think what you do you you talk about the journey you get the cogs working in your own brain and brain when you throw out the nuts and bolts which you probably don’t think have got value as such. You’re already using those cokes and you’re thinking yeah I can use that yeah I can tell you that that’s exactly what happened with me. You know I couldn’t see how to do this because I’ve never done this. But just by you having conversations with people you take the element and you take the element and you take that element and what do you do. He’s been up to you as an individual to put it together. Yeah I actually find myself pretty. I can be very socially awkward at the beginning and I sometimes I’ve actually accessed my I’ve switched into interview mode when I’m meeting someone in real life. I just watch on Mike I like my mentally switch on a podcast microphone in front of me and I found it so much easier to have conversations with people that way. So that’s kind of interesting to me is bizarre. I’m getting ready to play Steve Jobs now because I’m fascinated to see your spin on this. And this is the fulcrum of the whole show so this is a job. Don’t be free to do that of course it was impossible to connect the dots looking forward. When I was in college but it was very very clear looking backwards. Ten years later again you can’t connect the dots looking forward. You can only connect them looking backwards. So you have to trust that the dots will somehow connect in your future. You have to trust in something your gut destiny life karma whatever because believing that the dots will connect down the road will give you the confidence to follow your heart even when it leads you off the well-worn path. And that will make all the difference. When I’m going to ask a different question because I think you’ve answered it already but you will say yes you believe in it. But why do you think so many people don’t believe in that. I think that’s a lot. Most people get hung up on the how of something for example I think that we we pick a point be right we pick a point B that’s there’s the dot so I’ve got this I want to I want to do I want to have this show. And to get this show together I need this this this this this this this and we get stuck in the details of the this this this this this instead of. All right I’m going to sort of flow through this. All I want to do is get to that thing. I’m not sure how I’m going to get there yet but I’m going to I don’t really know. And by the time you get there and you look back and go wow that is not the path that all that I was going to take. My favorite metaphor. Or maybe it’s an analogy I forget but for this is if you and I were sitting at a cafe and I there was you know a three story building across the street and I said David there’s a hundred thousand pounds sitting in a bag on the roof of that building across the street. You have 15 minutes to get it. How fast would you be out the door to go get that money. I’d be on the right run the window right but you wouldn’t know how you were going to get it. You had no idea how to get to the roof of that building. You just knew you were getting to the roof. You don’t know if you’re going to you know helicopter down you know if you’re going to call the fire department to take you up there or you know scale like Spiderman but you’re getting to the roof of that building somehow. And I think what successful entrepreneurs do is they just keep their eye on that that you know that bag the bag that’s on the roof. They’re not quite as concerned about the how part. And we very much get concerned about the how part. And the second piece of that is when someone gives you an opportunity I just said this a little earlier when someone gives you an opportunity. Our instinctive reaction is to say no because of this this and this versus just instinctive to say yes and I’m going to figure out how to work out this this and this and that is a huge mental shift even though it’s very subtle. It’s just yes and no. But if you’ll find that people in your world that are really successful or really look like they’re just having a great time. They’re the ones that say yes first and then figure out how it’s going to work after and most of the people that are stuck and they don’t get from that one dot to the next dot. Those are the ones that say no because you know I I can’t live in San Diego because I have kids in school or because I can’t afford the move or because whatever we can come up with 15 different ways. But in reality all that stuff can be worked out. So I think that’s how I would respond to that and I hope that helps someone. So what scares you this is probably my final question before I send you on the mike and you can have a one on one with your younger self. As you all know and you’ve got these rocking and rolling show everything’s going well you’ve just bought these the watch you’ve finished off the last five years and everything’s good and you’ve got a lovely new girlfriend. What scares you. Well when you look at what you need to achieve. What scares me. I have to say I look at the bank being intimidated or being excited. I sort of treat the same way. So I don’t get super excited about everything and I don’t get scared about everything. I gosh I mean I don’t I I can honestly say I don’t have that for the same reason when someone said you know when I was so literally I was scraping up change so I could take in an airport shuttle for a ticket that was paid for by somebody else to go speak in front of 3000 people and that in which I was going to make $5000 or whatever that weekend. A few years ago I I literally had to scrape $8 up so I could take the shuttle like in change so I could take the shuttle to get to the airport that I had. I had $18 in my bank account at the time. And so it wasn’t enough to get the cash out of the machine. So I wasn’t worried about it. I’ve never been worried about stuff like that and I didn’t even know what success was going to look like for me. But I had a feeling that I was destined for it. And that’s the only way I can say is that it was it was very innate and I didn’t know where it was going to come from but I was very patient about it. Now I was also very patient about about you know I knew I was going to meet a great woman at some point and I was able to reach you know like you said read about a year ago but but recently. So I think that I have that that vibe that that it’s the same reason I don’t plan a lot. I just don’t. I’m living very much in the moment as I go day by day. And for better or for worse I don’t plan as much as I probably could or should. But right now I’m not really you know scared about anything. I mean I could say you know the show doesn’t grow at all. But even if it doesn’t I’m live in a great life right now. So I guess I’m not even that scared of that. OK last question before we send you back this time. Is it easier to move forward when you’ve hit rock bottom and you really did hit rock bottom. Yes it is. It’s easier for me to keep perspective on it. I just last weekend went to I went to Napa Valley with my girlfriend’s family and it was a very first class trip like from private private jet from San Diego to Napa Valley which I’ve never done before my life and everything was super exclusive super like Michelin star first class and I was like man I don’t want to be here like this. No I don’t mean like I didn’t want to be at the weekend. I just I don’t want to live in that universe of that sort of high end world. And that’s it. I I remember looking longingly at a train that goes through Napa Valley and it stops at all these different wineries and I’m kind of like Man I wish I would’ve just taken the train and gotten kind of drunk at the third winery and kept going and that would’ve been a really fun day. Instead it was like this you know 12 people serving our table kind of thing and it just wasn’t me. But my my Philly boy sort of like Kragen pragmatist personality carried me through that whole weekend thinking yeah I would be fine with stopping at a fast food place now and going to another winery. We don’t have to go to a hundred dollar plate dinner you know. And so I think if anything it’s given me perspective and there’s one more piece of perspective that in my very very lowest time and it was very low. And I thank you for not like making me go through that again like 40000 other shows have but I had a I remember the current hurricane Katrina had hit the southern United States and it just decimated New Orleans. And this was literally at my lowest time. And I remember looking on the news and seeing like a little 9 year old little black kid who everybody in his family died. Right. And he lost everything like lost every piece of memory he ever had including all of his family members. And he’s this kid who doesn’t have much of an education. He’s a minority. He doesn’t have a lot of opportunity that are coming coming to him and I remember thinking all right no matter what happens I’m a white male with a skill set in United States and that’s not and that’s not to be racially insensitive I’m looking. That was a practical. OK. So no matter what my situation is I can’t complain like I’m starting with these four advantages that a lot of people all over the world don’t have. I will be given opportunities that a lot of people don’t have and that really kept me grounded like that there was this you know that some people had to struggle to get to what I had innately by birth that I had nothing to do with. So that really kept me grounded and it still keeps me grounded to this day is that I always realize that there’s people out there that do not have the same opportunities that I knew the answer. Mike are we going to put you on the Sermon on the mike now. This is when we send you back in time lost a young Marty McFly to have a one on one with yourself and if you could go back in time. What age would you choose and what advice would you say. So I’m going to play the music and when he gets out you’re up. This is the Sermon on the mike. Here. We go with the speed of this. This man. Who. I think that first of all very handsome very very talented man couldn’t congratulate now. If you could work on harnessing that Philly attitude a little bit just over the next few years if you could take the edge off of that. Not everybody is out to get you and focus on building some relationships that you will sustain forever without having that kind of you know screw you Gene. Not Eugene. I don’t know anybody named Eugene. I’m not trying to signal that that will serve you in the future. Yeah. So to some or to to to bring that and I know that was very short but to bring that in I feel like over the last few years I’ve been able to take this. There was a bit of filea attitude like where if someone slighted me in any way that was it they were erased like done. And there was no real going back. It was partially like it was a Scorpio in me that that that’s sort of like had that stinger. And I you know it’s it’s the it’s the patience I have now which is maybe a little bit of it’s I wouldn’t say less judgment because I think judgment makes for good comedy. But but it’s just maybe being a little more empathetic to people’s situations and realizing that that people aren’t always in control of their actions and sometimes they’re going through a learning process as well. And to just instantly give them the guillotine and out of one’s life is not the most productive way to go through things. I don’t do that anymore but I did it for a number of years and I think it was just a reaction to losing my parents and it being so so much. OK Wolf I’m going to lose this anyway I might as well just cut it right off. And I think that didn’t that didn’t serve me for a long time. So I’d fix that. Michael how can our listeners connect with you sir. Well you know this. Oh I know you say you say in an American Xon is better I would say the same thing if you were speaking in a British accent. By the way you going to come on my show some time. I would love to come on your show it oh no great. And Howard Jones I want him to go. Has he been on your show yet. No he isn’t knocking me back. He said he would and not me but I’ve called a few of them that sign up for it. And then you just come down and that’s a drag. Anyway the show is called the Solar Perner hour. The Web site because no one can spell pre-New or is solo our dotcom. And if you’d like some coaching give a coaching program yet. I’ve only been focused on building you audience. That’s good. Well so if anybody needs coaching including you my friend I can’t believe you’re not in solo lab. I want solo lab dotcom and we’d love to have you in our really cool community. Mancow thank you so much for spending time with us tonight joining up those dots on the 100th episode and it’s quite the world’s longest episode of ever done as well. Please come listen. Is. Yeah we were about seven minutes past what we normally do. So come back again when you have more dots to join up because I do believe that by joining up the dots and connecting up pasts is the best way to build a future. Mr. Michael O’Neill thank you so much. And thank you. Dream Jobs, Online Courses, Persistence, Personal Trainer, Decision Making, Publicity, Young Entrepreneur, Freedom, Addicted, Shawn Stevenson, American Hustle, Make Money Online, Motivational Quotes, Expedition, Challenges, Steve Jobs, How To Start A Business, The Secret, Rich, Online Marketing, Time Management, Blogger, Videos, Recruiting, Authentic, Travel Blogs, Ultra Running, American Football, How To Make Money, Online Business, Company Culture, Law Of Attraction, Planet Money, Jobs, Video Marketing, Linkedin, Success Principles, Digital Marketing, Action Taking, Starting A Business, Successful Entrepreneurs, Personal Branding, Amazon, Lead Generation, Career Change, Life Planner, Comfort zone, Simplicity, Break The Rules, Book Launches, Personal Finance, Secret To Success, Business Plan, Health And Fitness, Tech Startup, Self Publishing, Entrepreneurs, Love, Career Path, Educational, Creativity, Selling, motivation, motivational, inspiration, confidence, success, freedom

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  • 00:48:32

    Steve & Cassie

    · Waiting for Babies

    Steve and Cassie had a whirlwind romance that went from a long distance courtship to marriage to quickly trying to conceive.  It took a year of trying to find that Steve was missing a key component to making things work: sperm.  After a surgery no one had ever heard of, and a final answer on what the problem was, they had what should have been an easy path forward.  As we keep learning, few things are easy in the fertility world.   TRANSCRIPT (transcripts are for purposes of searching and are approximations at best) This is Waiting for Babies. I'm Steven Mavros. So we just passed National Infertility Awareness Week in the U.S. The latest statistics show that one in eight couples in America and one in six in Canada will experience some sort of difficulties conceiving and that's not including the same sex couples or single women and men who have their own barriers to bringing a child into their lives. One of the toughest parts of infertility both for those going through it and the caregivers working with them is figuring out why. Why is this happening why is this not working. I feel like when you ask your average person most assume that there's usually something wrong with the woman. And given that almost all of the treatment options out there are women centric, you really can't blame them. After being in the industry for 15 years. I have fully turned to the woman side of things and I give them so much credit. Think about it when a woman walks into a fertility clinic almost every time someone's going to talk to them about how old they are, jab their arm to get at least three vials of blood and someone is going to put the wand of an ultrasound into their vagina and prod around for a few minutes and that can not feel good. Now what do guys get when they walk in. When they walk into a clinic. Usually the only thing they get is porn and an empty cup. Now I'm not saying that is not an awkward situation. I'm just saying Guys you need to have an account in good standing at your local florist and chocolatier. Interestingly science has found that it's not always the women's fault. Currently we think about a third of the problem is actually due to the guy. A third is due to the woman and the third is that dreaded phrase of unexplained. Where on paper everything looks like it should be working. But for some reason it's not. Today's story is going to be a little bit different. First you're going to hear a new voice that's my office manager Laura Mullin who accompanied me on many of these interviews. We're going to switch gears to the Y chromosomed people and our couple. So my name is Steve. I'm Cassie. And how old are you guys. I am 34, 32. Like many couples they figured having a child would be easy and followed what they thought was the natural progression of a relationship. That's what people do like get married you have sex you have kids. Right. So that's the natural progression. I just was thinking about her pre cana class. They asked if we had a Catholic marriage. They asked this you know how many children would you like and write it down. Think. I said as many as we can. All right. All right. Grace is not taking into account where that cost could go. Yes. You never think about it. You know you never think about. I'm going to have to pay to have a child you know there's going to be hospital bills like whatever the kids cost money diapers whatever like I get that crib all that stuff before they're conceived even Yeah but to even think that you're going to have to spend money in order to even have a chance to have a child that's made everything right. First is the free part of it. Cassie like many women I meet had a little background fear about getting pregnant and decided to be proactive about doing all kinds of like uterine toning teeth and leg. So you seem like yeah I mean I I'm a doer. It's not like I'm not patient. What was that like like what was your what was your process for you. I just got a lot of Google I think you know I'm just looking Yeah I don't even know what I probably don't like. How do I get pregnant. Dear Mr. Google. I want to go online and actually you know phrases crazy easy or you go to a lot of money on ambulation can set you free. Yeah. You just get crazy because you start thinking like maybe it's the birth control. Still right. It's not like me it's affecting somehow you know maybe it takes it's taking maybe all those years. Well then it's like Then you start thinking like Cassie cast when doing the research she would be like well I found some stories I like it took somebody a year and a half to get pregnant to get the birth you know. So then you pleased in your mind a little bit. Right. And so I remember you telling. Always you come back to you when you stop trying. Will happen. And unlike Steve I think I was always a little bit nervous about having infertility problems just because it was so important to me like it was. I guess I should say I never took the idea of fertility for granted so I don't think I've ever said this to you but I always did kind of line to try right away just in case something you know something was normal and like my radar was up you know probably earlier than most people were me to say you make me strong. Nothing's happened yet. So how long did your real try until you realized that something was. For me it was six months when I started like I started feeling a little bit nervous which they tell you is too early. And I went to the doctor who was like you can find he kind of gave us a look at you know if you like you can be fine. Could you guys. You guys are fine. What do we look for. So that is a glow of taking out a saucer or something some sort of or that we had around us but we are too young to be worried about here right now. And so we gave like another six months. At that point we went to the fertility doctor. Like ok it's funny now what happens is that like they focus on the woman that's probably my fault too. You know like I just kind of see you know like I know like even when we went to the fertility doctor it was like kind of more focused on you. It was like you could do your sperm sample like will get that. So I'm like take care of it. Whenever it wasn't really pressing it with her it was my impression anyway it was like we need to get you and do this to us we need to do this a little one is sharing you have more things to check. So after Cassie did all of her testing the clinic turned to Steve. But I remember it was around July the following year is when I had my first sperm analysis and it came back with zero. And I had brought the sample to the doctor's office because they said you can do either one. You can you do it there you can do it here and there. So we're meeting you for a while. There's no way you know it there's no way. Right. There's just no way. They don't get health care in my body. I you know there's just no way. Just like the doctor said you're fine. I can tell you're fertile but could you. But after that then I did another sample. I guess a couple weeks later I did another sample and I did it at the doctor's office this time. And then it came back zero again and and they said I have what's called azoospermia which best when I was diagnosed with basically is you're born with no sperm. They did say there is a possibility that I could have had sperm at some point my life made of 14 13 15 whatever. And then gradually over time lose it. But they they're pretty confident that I was probably born probably born without any. And I think what is it is that one in 10 million people. That's very small. Yeah. So yeah that was a big big hit. And that's when you know we really were like OK now what the hell do we do. Right. You go in for the first test. You find out what your thinking is going to be you probably I mean I just feel like every woman I've ever talked to like that. Yeah. So you go when you do the first one and they say zero. Now you go into the office and you're about to do the second one. What did that feel like. Yeah. And I remember being like well first of all I didn't have sex or masturbate or anything for like three days. I'm like I'm leaving no doubt. No doubt that's why I'm like this is going to be this is if they're like I'm going to give myself the best opportunity not to get too graphic with the guys but I was I was leaving no doubt. So there you go. I was I just I treated it like I was walking into like a final for college you know like I'm walking into like a presentation in front of like a thousand people i actually like it. This is like it's my job right now. I'm nervous. Nervous very nervous. You know they're optimistic. Yes I'm trying. I'm really honestly like again I'm an optimistic person. There had to be something wrong with their machines. It's not them it's not me it's them. Right. So walking in I still nervous but I still was pretty confident that OK. It can't be zero. I just know it can be zero. They probably just missed a low sperm count right. Not going to deny that. But you don't just go from three million to eight we miss all three million or whatever but I would but I was like they probably just missed some or it didn't do it thoroughly enough. That makes sense. What was the atmosphere like like was it easy to do what you had to do. Yes so that that was interesting I had never done anything quite like that for most men. Hopefully I don't have to go through something like that. It's awkward you can hear people outside like you hear people walking around. It's not like they took you away to like a sweep like up on the fifth floor or it's ok other places get like get out of bed and like you know like the way you want to watch it's late it's very very just like that. You know what that room is used for. And I hope that they wake that place down every day every hour really. That's why when they gave me the choice of doing it at home like no brainer like this is done you know. Oh I'm happy at home. Maybe the temperature was wrong here. Something must have happened something. We're getting. Some sort of contamination. There is some sort of temperature. There was a virus that got inside and killed every entrance point in it. Did you like that. How did you transfer. I had they gave me they gave me a a cup and just put it up and I had to I just put it I had to make sure that sunlight didn't hit it I don't know why I put it in like a brown paper bag carried it over and like that's kind of like you think when you're walking that everybody knows you're carrying and they're like you know like obviously like nobody knows what you're where they are. Just like in real estate. So it's kind of funny. Lucky for Steve and Cassie there was a ray of hope. What was cool about it at the time at the hospital that we were at. There was a specialist coming in and he specialized in male infertility. And like I said this is very very very very very serendipitous. And you know we were pretty hopeful. I think we were his first patients. The next day it was pretty cool. And I remember meeting him right away and I'm like This guy's like everything. We still talk about it. He's just incredible incredible incredible person. Well we can tell stories about him later. But you know he told me that basically the next step if you choose to do it is it's a it's a procedure called micro testes surgery which is basically what they do is they go and they cut both of your you know if your testicles open you're under for about four or four and a half hours. When we first thought about it I was like 2 hours. Oh that's right. He did say about an hour and a half hour situation. Yeah. It's 50 percent success rate. So you know what they do. They open both testicles up. They they basically look around in a microscope and look around for sperm. And you just keep looking around for sperm. They find it they can extract it and they can use that to fertilize an egg. You know theoretically that's that's what could happen. It's risky that there could be long term complications from it. So Cassie I talked about it. I made up my mind as soon as he even told me about the operation. I'm like Oh we're we're getting this done. And really because for me I need a final answer. I could I would never want to go through life wondering maybe there is one in there two in there that I could have used with this surgery. You know I needed to like. Know for sure. And and you know I remember telling him you know as soon as we we talked and I told him what we need to get it done. That's a hundred percent. Get it done. Was he pushing it or was he like saying this is a good idea now should do. Furthest thing from it. Right. I mean manager what was your take on it. I mean I I had reservation I think just from an emotional standpoint feeling like what with what with that. Well I guess physiologically to you like what would that be like to be in excruciating pain from a surgery. No. My fantasy is to have you know the disappointment of what that could feel like. But no. Our doctor was very kind. You know just in every way as far as this is what it's going to be and and understanding to the point where he really encouraged me to have a support person I asked for a while I waited. And I would have never thought to go because like I said I kind of thought of it more from what you were going to experience and not for myself but I needed my support person there and I'm so glad that she was. I mean I would have it would have been so. So from every angle he was kind and supportive and understanding of whatever he could possibly lose the financial situation there. The good issue wasn't covered by the circumstances of my career. The surgery was covered. Yeah didn't have to go through the financial burdens yet worries about that. This is more than I remember. We did check on it. I remember calling. I remember being play exactly where I was I was on 10th and 11th and Fitzwater on the phone with Aetna asking then is micro testes surgery covered under our insurance. She's like I've never heard of micro testes surgery. Trust me it's real. I need you to look it up for me. She felt like Kentucky. Exactly like the bell like protests and call. Hello. What is your idea again. So I. So she was off for like a couple of minutes and she got back on to say OK I found micro testes. She's I guess it is covered it's covered. I'm. Like. When it suits me. I had surgery October 16th 2013 was under 4 1/2 hours and up in besos I as soon as I got out of it I asked the doctor was right. Actually I'm sorry the nurse was right there. And the first thing I just said was Did it work. And you say it's OK you know that the doctor is going to be your enemy. That's going to be a very rare bit of work and work. I get asked that. And then the doctor came over and. I said Hey man did it work. And he was like no I'm sorry I didn't. And that was probably the most emotional you know. And then when Cassie came over that was that was probably the hardest. That was it was. I've never experienced a close loss of my life meeting like you know I've lost you know great aunts and your grandparents and stuff like that and never lost a close family member or anything like that. But as far as losses is concerned it was definitely felt like a death you know of some sort. It was a crazy day. My and my best friend came to the hospital and she practically to and. You know I when we first got there and let me become you know like 6:00 in the morning before and. I brought a stack of papers my kids had term papers due at school so I was like going out like this is this is what I have to do anyways. And I spent the first hour doing probably one and then my friend got there and we talked and hung out and tried to pretend like everything's fine. And then the longer it took the longer longer the procedure went on the more I felt nervous that things weren't going well which is as it turns out was what was happening. Our doctor. I can't say enough was so kind and you know he told me frankly and gently and I was just very sweet about it and sympathetic and understanding and it was way way way harder than I was going to be to get that news. But it was also I would say more romantic than our wedding day. Was that moment that we had together and recovery was just like extraordinary commitment. I felt to that moment it was like I don't care what happens. I'm so sorry. You know just feeling so connected to you in that in that moment it was deep it was very very deep. There was not you know nothing quite like it that I've ever experienced in my life of sharing a moment with another human being no matter who it is you know a family member or whatever. We went home that night we picked our sperm donor. From. A crowd back in California because I just did not want one second wasted because I knew going in if this is going to work. We're doing it Sperber 100 percent. And I do not want to rob Cassie of. Being having the gift of childbirth because what my ego says that like it's not your kid it's not your you know your sperm. So you know we have to look for other options. Absolutely not. You know this for just it's it's one of those things that I just is very adamant about so I'd like I just remember I was probably still messed up on medication and stuff like you know but I just I do remember we were sitting on the couch in our apartment and we were just looking to look at it. Sperm donors and sperm donors sperm donors and stuff. So how was recovery. I mean for all the men out there if you ever know what it's like to get punched in that area times that by four hours four hours and it's pain. I've never felt for my life. Let's put it that way. That's some pretty good injuries. But that was it was rough. You can't you know go to the bathroom like everything was like stay up where I can. You just can't get comfortable sitting down standing up. Nothing really gets you. You know what sucks is that Larry. It's a constant reminder. It was a constant reminder for the next you know month of like hey here you go here's this pain. And like is all this shit we had to go through after you had this 4 half hour surgery. Oh by the way it didn't even work you know. So I was prepared for that. You know that I said the doctor did say I had to spend a lot more time with Steve just because I wanted to I really want to you guys to win. I mean we when I was when I was in recovery the. Week I ran out of pain by get in whenever they gave me a week we called him I forget how we were just like hey we just didn't plan it like hey we're about to run now we just like we ran out. And I was still in you know a shit ton of pain and I think I e-mailed him and I was like hey man like I ran out of my pills. Is there any way you can put in a prescription and Cassie will go and grab it. I couldn't walk really or drive a car and Cassie can't go grab it. You know can you just put a prescription in. Well you can pay for painkillers. You can call it a prescription. You have to write it you have to handle it right. Write a script. So we didn't know that. And this guy goes to the pharmacy for it right. Prescription goes to the pharmacy fills it. Wait for it. And it delivers it drives it over to our apartment. I made him dinner that night and I don't know what I'll give you a little bit or just like me. He's. A meat eater. There might be some rice in there. You know I just remember wanting to get back and play basketball so much because I it's my biggest release is playing sports especially basketball and I play basketball college and you know it's a very it's a stress release for me. It's a really really big stress release for me and like not being able to do anything athletic. It's like there's a lot of pent up frustration on top of getting probably the worst news I've ever got in my life. So I remember the one time when I first went back and played basketball for the first time I went probably like two three weeks before the doctor told me that I shouldn't. And I went back and I got hit with the ball right there and I dropped to the ground and no one knew you know because it's very weird to tell people that don't. I don't mind speaking about it like you know never mind speaking about anybody. I mean we met for example I read my first I didn't like it that way by the launch party for like our social media. Yeah. And someone mentioned that you guys had gone to fertility and Steve comes over and he's just like do this for me. This is what happened. And of course in the back of my mind I'm like wait let me get my career out. It's kind of like like you. But they're moving. But the people that play basketball if they're not like my best buddies like 30 guys. That's like. I met them through basketball. So like trying to explain to somebody that I had surgery for four hours on my balls is like Oh why is something wrong with your dick? I’m like no no no. So it was just very very awkward to explain to them you know exactly what what the deal was. But I was just like listen yes because you're not like basically an operation on my balls for 4 1/2 hours. And like I feel to you you know. Yeah right. Exactly. I was like that that hurt really bad. I was still in stitches. I think like maybe five months later we were so excited every time we find one it would pull out. I would feel one. I'm like oh there's still getting like really really good feel like I was like it was like you know at that time it didn't it was always it was it was that was fine. It was all everything was heal properly. Everything was fine. And we I really feel like we're there are stitches in there because like you they when they said they said it was nice of us to solve. Yes. I think is the one that does all that go away. Yes. But there were good and you feel you drew it out. Yes. That it's a little square. So next we we chose a donor. We actually had to use a couple because our first who I felt like was a really good physical match for Steve. We were like two vials of sperm and we bought two vials and then he reached out so that's that's the other complication with sperm donors is you don't have this big unlimited quantity if you want one. You should probably buy as much as you think you mean because they might not be run out. Now how much you like what is the amount that you should be recommended. I remember they recommended three to four vials before. Like going to a tapas restaurant. I know for a person when you go through this whole process you feel like you're in there is a menu for everything there's a menu for IVF There's a menu for you and a cart like it is like if you want to know how tall they are. Can you get this it's not like that but like if you want an updated picture what it looks like now. Wow. Chad it is. I'm sorry but like every look alike you can find out or whatever you know like it's not crazy. Do you think a part of you still find that like even though zero of this stuff like there's still a chance. Like me first guy. Yes. I mean for say 100 percent. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Well the funny thing is when the surgery was over that well no I don't even think before I actually know no was over they told me that there's a 5 percent chance that you could some point in your life get Sperber. I don't know if they tell you that too like but shit like that works for me. You you be like you tell me that I'm my. That's all I need. And but I don't bank on that like I never I don't like when we have sex I don't go into it like this is to be you know like I know it's never like that but I think it'll gave me a little bit of like hey like. Who knows maybe in 10 years all of sudden like something cool can really happen but it's not. I totally get it. And that's why I went through the operation. You know my final answer Give me my final final go but never like less pressure. I feel like you know because I feel like a lot of couples who go through infertility treatments for years they do have to sort of like functionality to their sex life where is kind of like oh that's out the window for us. It's interesting you know most like me put it back in the fun category of putting it back to a purpose. Totally totally. Yeah. We there's one reason we do this. We want sex to procreate without sex to keep trying keep trying and try and have sex because we love each other and I mean she's really you know that's that's why we do her any like breakdowns or fights or arguments or guiding. But you know with that being the root of the problem or what. What was the root of the craving desire to really grow up knowing. I think definitely there were a lot of I mean yeah a lot of fights with this at the root of the problem especially once we got into the treatments like I was it was like when it got really bad and you know picking a donor all of that I was so impressed with Steve's stoicism and strength and being able to stand by and like move forward with that decision that we made. But. I remember you remember after the first one and he you know I mean he sees this procedure be done not with his sperm in it and it's really emotional really tough. And infuriating that moment. You know that that anger I know isn't like he hates me at the time that's what it feels like and you know like then it he. Well you're not suffering and suffering at some point you feel like you're comparing how much that person is hurting. And that was it's excruciating to hurt like that. And then to feel like your partner is probably feeling the same way you are you can in that way. It's the hardest. Just go back a little bit further. We met in May of 2011 we were engaged in January when we were married by July. So I'm trying to we know we got hit with all this like pretty much almost year one of being just together. Not even forget about the married life just even like knowing each other. On top of that too. We did long distance from May until the day literally they got married. So even the first year that we were together we only saw each other. I mean we talk every day every night but we only saw each other on the weekends and sometimes we have to skip a weekend for something going on. So like to be hit with this and not have years and years of knowing each other and like that security that that embrace knowing that that person is leave or knowing like you know what makes this person to her what you know you don't like it. We never we didn't have the luxury like this is thrown at us very early in pretty massive life life situation just being completely thrown at us right away. And I just don't think that we were prepared for that and we didn't know how we fought. I don't know if you guys understand you know how long it takes a while for you to realize your partner to have a constructive fight like I go for the jugular a lot you know and like I'm terrible I'm terrible at it. I know that. But like I know what she does to like to get to get me in. And I just didn't know you know knowing how to fight. And it sounds crazy like knowing how to fight with your partner is like his take so it really helps. I think we've figured it out almost like we're pretty much there. But like we've come a long way of like understanding what we both need in an argument. And again just it's just from lack of just not knowing each other. Deeply enough to really do that that yeah yeah yeah yeah. And you know that was one part of it a lot of I feel like my anger might have just really came from like you get to have kids and I don't you know it's just not fair. You know what I mean. And. You know and then if I heard her complain about something that's what would send me I'm like How dare you complain. You know we it you know and this would be like if you didn't work. Right. And I'm like will issue have an app that you know like to be sad. She wasn't allowed to be sad because like Lisa you get that. I'd rather be able to even step up and get that. But I can't I'm getting that I'm in the dugout. You know I I can only. Bitch I can't even play right like at least you get to play a lot of arguments centered around that. You know I'm sure I'm sure they're still going to be many tests in marriage over the next hundreds of thousands of years. But we're never going to be up at some point. But the re-up is only for people with azoospermia. He's a very you get to bring it to bring it family wants to bring her up. So Steve and Cassie moved on with their donor sperm and started doing IUI’s. So by the way let's take a pause here. IUI’s are intrauterine insemination. What a fertility clinic will do is they'll follow a woman's cycle monitor them for when they're about to ovulate and then they take prepared sperm that would have prepared me it means that they wash it. They separate the actual semen itself from the seminal fluid and they therefore get the greatest concentration of semen that can get, or in Steve and Cassie’s case prepared means that they took the donor sperm that was frozen and they thaw it and preparing to go into her body. How they do that is they take a syringe and they suck the semen up into the syringe and then they attach it to a catheter, a catheter it's like a flexible plastic tube. They insert a tube through the cervix. So they go through the vagina and then through the cervix right into the uterus and they inject that sperm right into the uterus. And the thought is that if you inject it past the cervix. The theory is that it gives the sperm a head start less swimming to do to reach the egg and increase the chance of fertilization. So this was Steve and Cassie’s next step and it looked like they had their answer and had a plan going forward. But like many people in their shoes even when the sperm is totally fine sometimes what should be an easy fix doesn't pan out the way it's supposed to. Did you at some point have like a conversation to like your you knew what was wrong what was wrong was there was no sperm. You go through this insemination and you just I assume you're just assuming. OK. Well this is fixing the. Yeah. So after like the third or fourth time did the doctor have answers? No I mean they kind of just said you know here your choices IUI or IVF is the next step and I was scared of That. You know it just seems like a lot a lot of fear. With I was like kind of having a miscarriage every month you know. Was it a miscarriage every month. But it was like I had to redo five or six. So. And every month it was like you know like when she would get her period it would be like it was a death you should be devastated. Our lives revolve around this like literally revolved around it. But it really did our our lives was like it was worth it. Infertility and fertility treatments. That's really what it does. So we did we did six IUI. And then after that we did we did an extraction and I think we ended up with six so are our first egg retrieval. We actually donated half of my eggs to get a discount. So you basically like sell your eggs and you get a group. So it's was a long process too because then I have to become an egg donor so you go through extensive screening lots of blood work. I took the personality test. It was like a question that was weird. It was like a psychological exams to pass then. Yeah it was. No it wasn't about 400 or so. Did you hear it it was you either. Know or you didn't go to Harrisburg yet. Eating all the time. I found nothing. So we had to like you have to see a separate person and you pay for that we get up you know. Oh man you so. Went through all of that. I had two miscarriages. So we had to take two chances. I had two miscarriage. We did it all over again and then so that costs you know I wanted that for us but we left off for about we're doing our part at that point I mean to be in probably 12 grand. Yeah. You say that was with that just kind of splitting into grants. Yeah. I remember asking one time if there's financing options and they're like gathering's financing options. Absolutely. And the interest rate was like 12 percent. And I'm like you got to be kidding me like how do you get you know. So we did. So we did. That was the first time we had two miscarriages and then you have to do the procedure all over again. And then that's when we went with the guaranteed program that the fertility company offered. And basically what that is is they they do the extraction and of course this time I mean we get really maybe 20 eggs. First she was hyperstimulated, got Grave’s disease from that which is hyperthyroid had to get her thyroid out after. That program the guaranteed program. Costs. To be 25000 without medication without huge. So probably a smart move 30 to 32000 something like that. She's making some books and grand for that. For all you know we went through 20 eggs. We got 20 eggs 10 made it to day five. So we did of course what happens right. We put one in. She’s upstairs. One time. So the guaranteed program is they do it as many times as you possibly or as many times as it takes to get a live baby in your arms. And of course the first time we did it last year I was going to say that any other day but it's just funny how it works out. Of course we do the guaranteed program and we were guaranteed to be able to get the first time within five years like can we get right here. Steve and Cassie’s daughter Sibi was born about three years after Steve first had his semen analysis. As you can tell we kind of zoom through what it was like for them to go through the first two rounds of IVF have two miscarriages which are never easy before they finally got to where they'd been hoping for since the day they got married. To say this whole thing can be a whirlwind is an understatement. Add to the fact that all this comes up within two years of them meeting each other even after hearing all of this I still can't imagine what it must have been like to just get some kind of lead. Yes it was yes. Now your new parents like it. Oh really. Five years. I just told you a life’s worth of medical issues today. Really like high school sweethearts really the first year didn't even count because like we're a long distance and like we saw each other like it was like literally getting off a train and be like oh my. God it's like party for two days and I only go back to work. Do you know where your new last name day. Oh yeah. That's. Their story didn't end there. Steve certainly struggling with knowing that has his daughter ages she won't look like him and that it's not easy to hear others talk about. But at the same time he's hopeful because he knows he's passing on his personality traits and sometimes when she mimics him at all feels OK. Cassie passed on the graves disease that she developed after IVF to her daughter which required a scary five day stay at Children's Hospital and then had a flare up of a syndrome she's had her whole life called brachial neuritis which I could do a whole separate podcast on as you can tell the story so rarely just end with the arrival of the baby. Thanks to Steve and Cassi for sharing their story. Waiting for babies is produced by me Steven Mavros, music for this episode by Quiet Music for Tiny Robots, Josh Woodward and Chris Zabrieski. If you like what you hear. Please rate us on iTunes and you can always check us out at waitingforbabies.com to find out more, here are extra stories about what the interviews were like and see photos and if you really want to help us keep doing this because we take a lot of time away from seeing patients. Please go to our Web site and click donate. Have a story you want to tell. We now have a contact forum for submissions on our Web site at waitingforbabies.com. Get a little bonus here at the end. When Laura and I go to interview some of these couples we always tend to bring a bottle of wine with us and not everyone opens the bottle of wine. But in this case Steve and Cassie did and we had a little surprise when we opened the first bottle of wine to start drinking. And it kind of interrupted a really intense moment but I just thought I would share. Thanks so much for everything. See you guys next time. IVF just scared me. You know it just seems like a lot but I we just don't know.  Um. Is that a crystal?  Do you guys you know let's talk reimbursement. Please don't tell me you spent $500 on a bottle of wine. No. Go ahead. Go ahead please. I have no idea. I've never seen that the way rabbit over here to open up the box. Just like the ticket I had put in place first time with something that it's really it's really me. I mean we're definitely talking Reserve. What do you think is happening over here. This stuff is so funny. This audio features the songs "Lullaby for a Broken Circuit" by Quiet Music for Tiny Robots, "Ghost Dance" by Kevin MacLeod, "Readers, Do You Read!?" by Chris Zabriskie, and "California Lullaby (Instrumental Version)" by Josh Woodward, all available under a Creative Commons Attribution license. Who needs a cork, or a corkscrew for that matter, when there's a crystal glass stopper already on your bottle of wine. 

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  • 00:41:42

    Ben Settle On Personality-Driven Emails

    · Sales Funnel Mastery: Business Growth | Conversions | Sales | Online Marketing

    In this episode, we chat with the one and only Ben Settle. Ben is a well-known email marketer who has a unique approach to writing emails. We get into the specifics of his unique style, why it works so well, why most people royally screw up the entire purpose of emails, and how you can use it in your own business for better results and a heckuva lot more fun writing emails! Resources Mentioned bensettle.com Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey, what is going on everybody. Jeremy Reeves here with another episode of The Sales Funnel Mastery Podcast. Today, I have on the line, Ben Settle. Probably a lot of you listening know about Ben. Basically, he is an email marketing bad ass -- if you bring up the subject email marketing, you have probably heard his name somewhere in there. He basically runs -- he does not do copy work anymore, anything like that. He kind of just focuses on you know, showing business owners how to write better sales copy with email and we will talk about it a little bit later where he has a news letter called email players which is pretty awesome and we will get into a little bit about that later. Ben, how are you buddy? Ben Settle: I am doing good, Jeremy. Thanks for having me on your show here. It is good to be here. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I appreciate you coming on. So before we get into like you know, the actual tips and all that kind of stuff. Tell everybody a little bit about yourself you know, go into your story a little bit so people know you know, who you are or what you have done and why people talked about you in the industry. Ben Settle: Okay. I felt everybody says good things about me (inaudible 1:25.3) I hope not or else I am doing something wrong. I am basically -- whenever people ask me what I do -- and being in this industry you know the frustration to that problem. You go to a party and it is not business people, certainly not internet people. What do you do, right. What are you saying.. I used to have these different answers. I would like to gauge people’s response. Like I (inaudible 1:47.6) expand emails. I write (inaudible 1:51.0) emails, but now I will say, I am like (inaudible 1:53.4) who gets paid. And then they go, what do you mean by that. I said, well, I wake every day. I write an email, it takes me 10 to 15 or maybe 20 minutes tops and then I am done. I go off and have fun and play all day. That is the essence of what I do and the kind of lifestyle (inaudible 2:09.6) you know, there is people right now out there glorifying long hours and hard work and few hours of sleep and I am like the (inaudible 2:19.9) whatever it is or a writer who does not you know understand grammar, but that is like, I am the opposite. I have tried to build a lifestyle where -- I do other stuff, but I only have to do that and so that is pretty much what I do. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice. Why did you make that decision you know, because I am on the same way and everybody listening to this probably is too because that is what I talked about all the time is you know, time freedom and kind of not going after you know, the typical like you work until your eyes bleed just because you know, if you are trying to build a company sell for you know 7, 8, or 9 figures then maybe do that for a couple of years and then sell it and then you know do whatever or like Gary Vaynerchuck says, you know, he cannot live any other way you know, that is just part of your DNA and that is fine, but I mean, I definitely at more along the lines of yours you know what I mean. Work for a couple of hours. Work you know, for a little bit and then enjoy your life you know. So why did you -- why did you end up you know, wanting to go down that path you know, versus like the work until your eyes (inaudible 3:28.4). Ben Settle: Yeah (inaudible 3:28.4) and I was just speaking at an event a couple (inaudible 3:32.2) weekend and I remember telling people I am like the anti Gary V. not that I am against him (inaudible 3:39.8) I respect the guy. Do not get me wrong, but I am anti that in the sense of I do the opposite, like I could not -- I am not a -- like he said, he is apparently -- I have never heard the guy talk before. It is kind of funny because everybody (inaudible 3:50.9). Apparently, I was on this interview called mixology I think with Andrew Warner. Really cool show. He was telling me that in an interview Gary V (inaudible 4:01.5) he is like a mutant. He only needs like an hour of sleep. I do not know man. To me, like that is not what I want. So this is probably back like 2004, I was you know, somewhat new copywriter. I have been doing it for about a year or two or whatever. And I remember being on this guy’s list, Matty Furey. Now, to me, Matt Furey is the email king. I give him all the -- I mean, the stuff he teaches is the foundation of how I got in to all of this. Now I hear often a lot of ways not but the foundational stuff. Yeah, I owe that guy everything as far as I am concern. I will be pumping gas at the Chevron right now (inaudible 4:35.6) for him. He was selling to the fitness niche right. You know, body weight, exercise books master stuff. He would write an email everyday and he will be done. Sometimes he brag (inaudible 4:45.1) you know. I do not even check his email respond. Just pushing (inaudible 4:48.0) I want to go off. I am in China. I am going to go write often and get massages whole day out. And I thought, man, that is what I want. I (inaudible 4:54.8) busting my ass like you know, client work. I am like, I want that. I want to go just send an email out and be gone for the day, so I can have the option to do other things if I want and I do. I write novels like monster novels and I (inaudible 5:07.4) joint ventures that I am involved in like in a golf market, but that stuff is optional, okay. (inaudible 5:12.9) to do this one thing and it is a very freeing way to live. I can still work hard if I want you know, I do. I do work hard. I get bored very easily, but it is nice to not have to, that is my whole point. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and I think that is a big point you know. It is the freedom to do you know, if you wake up one day and then you are like shit, I just do not feel like working. I mean, you do not have to, you know, versus if you are tied down by a thousand things, it does not matter how you feel when you wake up. You have to work and it is just your grinding through it. You hate your day and that kind of thing. I totally get that. I love that. Ben Settle: To clarify a job at that point. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, it really is, yeah. And I think a lot of people are you know, struggling with that. I think that is how most people set up their businesses. Ben Settle: You know, there is something -- I am also going to play Devil’s Advocate against myself because at the same time and I told (inaudible 6:05.8) you probably heard me talked about this in Kenny Roger’s thing. At the same time, those guys (inaudible 6:12.2) building actual real businesses and companies that they can sell off or just leave to a team to run, I wish I was more like that. I mean they are really the winners. They are the ones are going to win this race. I am just sitting there. I am just coasting along right now. If I get sick or hurt or die, some kind of (inaudible 6:27.1) because I do not have that (inaudible 6:29.5). So there is freedom there, but it is like the freedom of a drifter and like that (inaudible 6:34.4) David Banner wondering the earth. Well if he breaks his legs, he is kind of screwed you know. At the same time, I mean there is something (inaudible 6:42.0) to the other side and I should be thinking more like that. I just have not thinking inspired yet. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. You know, like anything else, there is pros and cons. There is no black and white. There is no perfect way to do things. It is just whatever works for you and your lifestyle you know, what you want to do you know. So you know, for anybody who has not heard of you, I feel like a lot of the audience listening to this probably has at least a familiarity with you and the style of writing that you do, but tell everybody about like, because your writing is very different than most people you know what I mean. So I guess walk us through like the -- I guess like the overall framework that you used for writing and I do not know if you can write copy. I know some people can just spout off copy off the top of their heads, but like just to kind to give an example of what it sounds like just so people can see, kind of hear how it is different you know, than like a typical email. Ben Settle: Well, here is -- they have been hearing me do it since we got on the phone or on the Skype here because I write just like I talk and this is the fact. If I have a unique way of writing it is only because I have a unique -- everybody has a unique personality. I simply expressed mine through my writing. How I write is exactly how I talk. In fact, you were talking to Jonathan Rivera you said recently and he is my -- I am going to be doing a new podcast by (inaudible 8:05.8) well I can do new (inaudible 8:07.6). Jeremy Reeves: That will be interesting. Ben Settle: I had a podcast for 2-1/2 years with him and he was the producer and I am going to be you know, we ended that in actually just a couple of weeks ago completely. Now we are going to do a new one next year, different one. But anyway, he told me that, he called me on the air once and he went to some mastermind right where there is a bunch of people there that I guess knew me in person. We have hang out (inaudible 8:31.4) and then like you know, Ben sounds exactly like, on his podcast as he does it in email as he does in real life is the exact same voice completely congruent. You know you are talking to -- you can tell it is a Ben email without even seeing the frontline if you know him or heard him talk. So all I am doing is writing like I talk which is a very simple principle that I learned from Matt Furey actually. I give him all the credits for it. I used to censor myself. I do not anymore. I am raw, uncircumcised opinion and that is the way I do things. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. So how do you -- in terms of like you know, because I get a question a lot of you know, how much value do you put it in and like what do you sell. How do you leave the sale like all you know, all the kind of typical marketing questions. What is your -- do you have like a -- I guess like a framework for your emails, like do you follow a certain structure for them or do you kind of just like blurted out and you know, or do you follow like kind of a certain structure for them? Ben Settle: Well when I was figuring all this out, I very consciously started figuring out different structures. So for example, I am going to tell a story and 1 email or I am going to do a Q&A or I just (inaudible 9:41.3) with somebody ask me and I just answer. That is another structure or checklist of some kind or just a rant like a controversial rant and a whole bunch more. But I had to consciously work all this out and systematized it and you know, that is kind of what I teach these days, but nowadays, it is (inaudible 10:00.1) to me, I do not think any of that stuff. It is just in my subconscious. I just sit down and I have an idea, I start writing and I cannot explain it beyond that (inaudible 10:07.5) it is kind of like (inaudible 10:08.9) right. When you are trying to learn something, you are consciously unconfident. You know, you do not know and then you go from conscious confidence where you can do the thing while you are thinking about it and then you get to the point you are unconsciously confident which is like driving a car, you did not think about it anymore. And that is where I am (inaudible 10:25.2) that now, but I did have to work that stuff out originally and just keep doing it over, over, and over for the last you know, 8 or 9 years every day, sometimes 2 to 3 times a day to the point where it is so (inaudible 10:37.1) it is like hard for me not to write an email every day or voice emails. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and actually, you know, speaking of daily emails. I know you are (inaudible 10:45.9) daily emails and you know, everybody has a different opinion on that of course. So you know, walk us through like you know, why you do daily emails? Have you tested not doing daily emails you know, have you tested autoresponders you know, what are some of the things that you have kind of try and saw that it work best around like frequency. Ben Settle: Well, when I first get started many months ago, I did like what the late great Gary Halbert used to teach people to do and I mean this with all due respect to him, but he was (inaudible 11:17.1). I mean he is right about a lot of stuff, but this where he was wrong. He was big on like send an email when you have something to say and then or only saw once in a while because then you know, people take it more seriously you know, all that what make sense on the (inaudible 11:32.9) especially back in like the 90s and all -- they kind of make sense. I still think it you know, when the work is well is how I do it now, but whatever, it does not matter. So I used to do that and so well, I would go months and months and months without selling anything. I would just be giving free content and free articles and then one day like exactly 10 years ago actually because I remember 2006, my friend John Anghelache who is a very good copywriter, excellent copywriter, I respect the guy tremendously, he put together a product for freelanced copywriters like how to get clients and my list was you know, very into that sort of thing I said good, I have got something to sell them right, it is a high ticket, high quality thing I believed in. So I send some -- (inaudible 12:14.1) asking for the sale and got a bunch of angry mob of angry people. How dare I sell anything. You are pimping your (inaudible 12:21.2) I never sold anything before though. And that is when I realized trying to appease these loser freebie seekers is the worst thing you can do if you want to have a solid email list or you are not getting a bunch of spam complaints and just trolls and all that. And so I started you know, thinking about that with why I am trying to appease this people. I have something to sell, I should do it and then of course I ran into Matt Furey’s teachings. He is pure daily email from many reasons like for example, people procrastinate you know, and you can assume it even seeing your last 10 emails just because of spam filters and they are busy. I get people telling me Jeremy that they made a decision to buy from me 6 weeks earlier than when they actually did. They just did not have the money. They just (inaudible 13:03.5) for reminding them every day. And here is another thought. If you are trying to position yourself as an expert, personally, I would like to position myself as a leader not just an expert because people listen to experts but they follow leaders, but let us just say -- Jeremy Reeves: It is a good distinction. I like that. Ben Settle: Yeah, I mean, you are trying to position yourself as some kind of authority, let us just put it that way and (inaudible 13:24.1) something to say once a week or twice a week you know, and then this other guy comes along and he has something to say every day. Who is -- perceptually, who is the leader? I mean if you do not have something to say everyday on what you are doing, people may not consciously think about it, but unconsciously, they think about this person is really the expert they say they are. And so, it is that and it is just this consistency, is like talk radio right, like every day you show up. They do not have read every email, but I am there every day and I am going to get them eventually if they are susceptible to my (inaudible 13:55.8) and the people I do not want will leave peacefully because they are tired of getting (inaudible 14:00.0) emails, so it is fine. It works out in so many -- it is a good way to keep your list strong and keep people kind of addicted to you like literally get a dopamine drip when they see your name in it, (inaudible 14:10.7) what is he going to say today. And you know, there are so many reasons to do daily and no I cannot think of any reason not to other than pure laziness or like you know, people just (inaudible 14:20.2) why I have to do the work. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. That is a good point, and honestly, I think that is what it is most of the time you know. Ben Settle: (inaudible 14:28.4) they do not want to have to do it and I give it (inaudible 14:31.9) I understand it completely. I might even making fun of them because they think I know I should do that I am not doing and I am not doing it because I am being lazy and my rationalization (inaudible 14:43.0) spinning some other reason out, but the fact -- at the same time I will say this too. (inaudible 14:49.1) of internet marketing as we know it, (inaudible 14:52.3) but I once interviewed him, this is back in 2008 or something. He says, he only sends 3 a week and he tested it. Apparently, somehow got more sales doing that, whatever. I have never seen that be the case with anybody else but him, but (inaudible 15:08.3) about or anything. He is not a lazy guy so and he likes writing email, so for him, you know, I guess you have to do your own thing. I think that through writing emails that people want to read. Why wouldn’t you want to be there every day. They are looking forward to it. Jeremy Reeves: One of things I want to touch on and feel free to rant about this as much as you want. Ben Settle: I will Jeremy. (inaudible 15:32.1) free to rant. I love that kind of stuff. Jeremy Reeves: So what are your thoughts on controversy? Ben Settle: I love controversy. I tell you what. It is one of the things I teach people to do. First of all, people love controversy. I mean, it is (inaudible 15:49.2) right. People just arguing about the stupid and shit you know, (inaudible 15:54.0) 300 comments long and nobody has made a point. Nobody has change anyone’s mind, but they just like ranting. (inaudible 16:01.2) talk radio it is a lot of ranting, right. People like to hear ranting about things they are passion about. They like to hear ranting controversial stuff about (inaudible 16:09.2) they disagree about them. Let me give you an example. Back in the late 1980s, Marvel Comics decided to turn the green rampaging Hulk into a smart gray Hulk, who is smaller, not as strong, he is still strong, but not as strong as rampaging green Hulk because he is kind of like sinister-minded, kind of an antihero kind of you know, just a vicious guy basically. And all of the green Hulk people were pissed. They are sending letters (inaudible 16:37.0) writers and editors and we are never reading the Hulk again and then they noticed every month that went by, the same people were still there. They did not leave. They are still there just to see how much mad they can get and sales keep going up more. So controversy, it is a funny thing. Half of your list should disagree you know, half will probably agree with you and that is actually a very good balance and the (inaudible 16:59.8) one, you can pull to your side. So I am all for controversy. It also shows that you have some balls. I mean, most people are afraid to be controversial and people like to follow brave people. They do not want to follow some timid little rabbit like you know, (inaudible 17:16.7) me as I was. I was as timid little rabbit afraid to say too. I have tried to get to controversial. Now, it is like, I just want to see the expression on their faces change when I say something that pisses them off you know what I mean (inaudible 17:30.0). Jeremy Reeves: That gives you your little dopamine rush every day when you get hate mail. Ben Settle: It is a rush of dopamine. I love it. I eat it up. I love and then I use it in the next day’s email to make their point stupid and (inaudible 17:44.0) my part. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. And the funny thing is, I always say like you know, if you picture yourself kind of like in the middle and you are like you know, like a magnet and the more that you pissed off people and push away and polarized people, the amount that whatever like the amount of whatever polarization you have to those people is the exact like in inverse relationship with people attracted to you, you know what I mean. Ben Settle: Absolutely. I totally agree with that. In fact, that is a major foundation of personal branding like how it is done, at least done. Most of them do not understand personal branding but done properly that is exactly it. You can almost tell your success by how much people hate you. And there is something else that (inaudible 18:29.0) deeper thing at work here too. Someone who is not afraid to just give their opinion up. It has to be done righteously. It cannot be done as a tactic or like I am going to be controversial is a tactic. It is going to be because you really see something that you know is wrong in your mind, in your heart like you are going to talk about it. It makes people realized that you are not me. You do not need them, if you did, you would be dancing on (inaudible 18:52.5) right, and you are almost trying to repulse some away and there is a lot of -- it is under the consciousness. It is not some people think about, but by being controversial that is why people do not go away because they -- there is something about you that they find attractive as a business owner, as a leader, and whatever, and even if they disagree or do they respect you and it is far more important as the late great (inaudible 19:15.5) I would say. It is far more important to be respected than liked and the more effective you are the more respected you are. So just by getting good at what you do, and proving your point and not giving in like the late -- for example, the late Dr. Atkins, right. I mean, he for years, was getting abuse by the media and people mocking him around. He stood with it. Now he is a world recognized brand you know. There is something to be set for that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. And I think a good example of not being controversial just to be controversial is like, if you are you know, so like we both agree with the -- we both kind of stand for like the you know, building a business for freedom you know versus the whole work until your eyes bleed thing. So you can be controversial about that. You can say like you know, the other side is I do not agree with that, blah.. blah.. blah.. and that is kind of good way to do, that gives -- you are going to attract people that think the same thing. And then, but if you want to do the stupid way is kind of like if you are like oh I hate all puppies you know, it is like -- like there is no -- there is no meaning behind it. You are just being an idiot you know what I mean and whether you hate puppies or not I mean I do not know how you can hate puppies, but you know what I mean like it is not actually serving a purpose to say that you know what I mean, I think that is a good -- Ben Settle: I will give you a recent example and so I think -- I think this is like, this will give people an email example too so it is kind of like teaching them email stuff at the same time. I am not totally against (inaudible 20:43.2) so for last year and a half, I have been studying this kind of kung fu called Wing Chun. Wing Chun, sometimes people think I am saying Weng Chan. Jeremy Reeves: I actually thought you did. Ben Settle: Yeah, well because of my stupid Midwest accent thing, gets me in all kinds of trouble, but I got to shake that, someday, but anyway, I was talking to my (inaudible 21:05.8) just last week and he was telling me about this -- I do not know Chinese phrases (inaudible 21:10.4) it is called flowery hands. These are like kung fu like and not just kung fu but any kind of martial arts were just all show and it is flashy but it is not really applicable in real life (inaudible 21:21.0) in Hollywood and movies. Most of them is just bullshit, it would never work. It is flowery hands. It is very fluffy. It is made to look cool, but the reality is you are not in balance with anything. You can easily get (inaudible 21:30.7). So I said, we have some of that and this was an email I sent (inaudible 21:34.4) and then we have some flowery hands in the email world too and I went over some things that I think (inaudible 21:40.9) that people do like will take the Gary V and I am trying to pick (inaudible 21:46.2) I just do not agree what a lot of people of do. He has this thing I think it is called jab, jab, jab, right hook, like that. Like give something free, give something free and then make an offer. I am completely against that. I think that is very flowery hands. The style looks nice, but the reality is that it is very selfish to not sell on every email and (inaudible 22:08.4) opinion because if you have something that is going to benefit someone’s life, what good (inaudible 22:14.2) at least left a note (inaudible 22:15.5) everyday. It is kind of like -- if you have a painful urinary tract infection, where it feels like you are pissing a razorblades and all that. You need to go to the store or pharmacy to get your prescription and they have -- the pharmacy (inaudible 22:28.4) and they say look, this is a good will day today, we are not going to sell you anything (inaudible 22:32.2). Like that is the mindset, the flowery hands mindset or people -- for example, there are people who give their list the option on how often they should hear from them. It sounds very nice. Very nice guy. Very (inaudible 22:47.0), it is still very selfish and at the same time, it is going to kill your sales (inaudible 22:50.9). And it is very flowery and I am not saying it would not work and some people can definitely pull it off and it is fine. There is nothing wrong with it, but to me, it is very flowery. It is just for show as to prove that I am not this big salesman. I am a salesman. I am trying to sell you something, but I am going to do it in a way where you like it, you know. I am like the passive abusive guy you know what I mean. I am going to abuse you, but you are going to like it. And you want more the next day. So anyway, I did an email about that. I did it once. There are some other things too and that was controversial email. I was not insulting. I was not trying to insult anyone’s specific (inaudible 23:29.2). I was simply giving people a different option for thinking differently basically because most people are thinking in this (inaudible 23:36.2) world (inaudible 23:37.7). They do not have to listen to me. They do not have to agree with me, but they are going to see another point of view and that could be controversial. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, if you look like a really good example of all this right now whether you love (inaudible 23:50.8) is trump, right. I mean, oh my God, I mean the marketing (inaudible 23:55.9) from that guy is just, Jesus -- Ben Settle: I hear you. I mean, earlier this year where I finally read his book, (inaudible 24:03.4) and I am like his whole play from what he is doing is in that book. There is no mystery to what he is doing. People like to (inaudible 24:09.4) at the reality is just very basic. Principle based versus tactic based and you are right and you know, he is controversial and he does it on purpose, but he is also doing it because he sees a problem that needs to be solved. Now whether you agree to him or not it does not matter. I do not give this guy a malicious (inaudible 24:26.9). I do not think they are being malicious not certainly on purpose, Hillary maybe, but like (inaudible 24:32.7) I do not look at him as trying -- I do not agree to anything he says, but I do not think he is malicious (inaudible 24:38.0) I think he believes them and it is controversial and (inaudible 24:41.4) and so as Trump is the same way. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. So let us take this you know, because there is like the whole daily email thing right, and I think we cover that pretty well, but how about like when you are doing -- let us just say that you are doing a promotion you know what I mean. So it is like, you are sitting down. You are planning out some actual strategy because you are not going to write -- you are not going to -- you maybe write the same way in terms of like tone and things like that, but in terms of like the actual strategy behind it, that is going to change obviously because you know, you cannot just send out you know, the exact same daily emails when you are doing like a 4 day promotion or something like that. So how do you switch up the strategy? Do you keep the same tone, I am sure you do, but you know, is there a certain strategy that like a certain way that you like to structure those types of emails or like how does the overall email strategy change based on like the end goal that you are trying to reach. Ben Settle: It does change at all for me. The same email -- for example, if I had a 100 emails in an autoresponder space the day apart, I write them randomly in the exact same as if I am writing email broadcast and it has never hurt me. It is always done very well. What I do, okay, -- this might be the better answer to your question. I do not look at email tactically like most people do. Like -- okay, so I have Facebook group. This one guy was in there saying, well, how about this 4 emails I want to send off. This one tells, agitates the problem and this one you know, whatever, it is like problem education and I said, dude you are dead in the water right now because you approaching this tactically and you should be calling from a principle based thing. This is (inaudible 26:20.7) the world’s most (inaudible 26:23.3) negotiator. The reality is that you should be looking at what your market, what the problems are in your market and writing about that, not thinking (inaudible 26:30.3) agitate. What is insecurity they have that you can write about it you know. It is really (inaudible 26:36.6) like come from the market first not (inaudible 26:39.2). And so, that is how I approach for example for a promotion. I say, look, I think I have a real-life example, a recent one actually of something like it. So I say, okay, so a couple of years ago, I (inaudible 26:39.2) most people do. So this is back when he had this product that shows you how to do the survey funnels. He does not have it anymore. Now it is like a mastermind, but -- I bring this example up because I beat all his affiliates handily including some pretty big names like I just beat them all and I did not even try (inaudible 27:10.8) burned up somewhat. I was (inaudible 27:10.8) vacation. All I did was I said, okay, I have affiliate marketers on my list. I have network marketers on my list. I have freelance copywriters on my list you know, I looked at all the people who are on my list and I did an email about each one. So how could a network marketer (inaudible 27:27.3) this and I write email about that. How can affiliate marketer use this information, wrote an email about that (inaudible 27:32.9) same style and tone and all that, but I was targeting different segments of my market. I did this recently with Danny (inaudible 27:40.5) you know Danny (inaudible 27:41.3). I was selling his course builder (inaudible 27:43.6). He simply really -- this is way better than -- like the average affiliate. I do not know if I did the best or not, but you know, way better. I mean, he was very happy about it. I did the same thing. Okay, so, why would a freelance copywriter need to learn how to build a course. Why would an affiliate marketer need how to build the course. Why would a network marketer (inaudible 28:01.6) it is all about your list and the people on and what they want, tailored around that. That is the principle then you can throw the tactics after the next emails if you want, but starts with that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you know what, I am actually -- I am actually working the whole day today and yesterday and tomorrow and probably the weekend actually which I rarely work weekends, but I am just motivated this weekend. But I am coming out with the new course and that is, well like, what the whole thing is wrapped around because I mean, you know, as a copywriter, you know, you are trained to, you are trained to -- and honestly this is really what separates really good copywriters from really bad copywriters is how much you focus on the actual market, the problems they are having you know what I mean, because you can write -- it kind of comes back to the flower hands. You can make the copy sound great but if you are talking about the wrong problems or you are talking to the wrong audience of if it is generalized, it is not going to sell you know what I mean. Ben Settle: (inaudible 29:01.6) all the time. People’s flashy headlines, all the shit. They think it is so cool and it is like, you missed the market -- You know, let us talk about this a little bit more. This is very interesting topic. (inaudible 29:12.0) I do not have the product made yet, so write the ad first, and then create and like create the product in the ad. I did this in the -- work at home (inaudible 29:21.1) we did not have a product, right and we look at the market and I wrote the ad saying if I have unlimited powers what would I teach these people and put it in the ad and then it is like, okay, now we just need to make a product that fulfills all these claims and if we cannot, we just take those claims out. That is the ideal way to do it. Only copywriters are going to get that. Operators are not going to understand that. Jeremy Reeves: I am actually working on a client project right now and I am just about to finish up all the copy and I literally have not seen her product yet. It is actually not even -- it is not even created yet, yeah. And what I told her was, because she was starting to make it and I said, wait until the copy is actually done because then like I can just write it and until it sounds freaking awesome, and then -- Ben Settle: Absolutely. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and then what you have to do is you have to then create the product so it matches the level of copy you know what I mean, versus if you create the product and the product sucks, will -- I mean the copy or the product is the weak link and the copy can only go up to that level versus if you write the most amazing copy in the world and sell the hell out of it then the product has to come out to that level you know. Ben Settle: Absolutely. It brings it up. It actually raises -- and you know what, when I first got into golf interest like in 2009, I did not know shit about golfing, seriously. I hope I am not slamming too much in your (inaudible 30:39.3) But I did not know anything about golf, like I was -- I never played a bit, not even miniature golf and but I studied the market so intensely and the product was not ready, but I was able to write 80% -- everything but the bullets basically, without even seeing the product or knew the market and they killed, I mean it absolutely killed it in sales. I mean there is no one even close and so yeah, I agree with you on that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. And that is the same thing. I just have to go back and do the bullets you know. Having the product, that is really all you need is just the bullets you know. Ben Settle: Yeah, (inaudible 31:12.1) that is really how you need it exactly. Jeremy Reeves: Unless you are doing you know, one of the like (inaudible 31:16.9) old ads where it was just like a headline and then bullets and you know, go here to buy. Ben Settle: One of my favorite kind of ads to write. Jeremy Reeves: Then you kind of you know, you kind of need the product, but in every other case you know and I have not really -- I think that is the only time I have heard or even seen (inaudible 31:34.2) like that. I do not think I have ever seen anybody duplicate one of those you know. Ben Settle: I tried (inaudible 31:39.7) couple case like I have this ebook called Crackerjack Selling Secrets, (inaudible 31:45.8) like a main stream like it is a problem they know they have and they know they want solutions to it and you can (inaudible 31:51.7) it is like informational (inaudible 31:53.5) to teasing, it is perfect. You do not even have to do (inaudible 31:57.2) you know, just start running bullets, it is like to shoot bullets at them. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, bullets are good. I think the biggest thing people are wrong with them is they almost like give it away in the bullet whereas you know, they are fascinations. They are supposed to be you know, they are supposed to build curiosity you know and I think -- Ben Settle: Yeah. 90% is a good -- like 90% (inaudible 32:20.3) 10% but they need to execute it is like the best kind of bullet, because it is informational like you could be getting educated (inaudible 32:27.4) Jeremy Reeves: So one -- oh God, I just had it, and it went out. I love that when that happens during the interview. Alright, well, I guess we will skip that one. Oh you know what, you know what I was going to ask you, it just came back. So one of the things that I always talk about is that you know, when you are doing these type of emails and like a lot of your -- a lot of people think you know, email is dead and obviously that is just total bullshit. But you know, when it comes to doing email or even social media, it is kind of like the same thing whatever you like your main marketing you know, some people are really good at and by the way, anybody listening to this, if you hate writing emails, but you are really good at videos, you are really good on social media, you can use the same principles and just use it in a different media you know what I mean. Ben Settle: It is all the same. It is all freaking same. In fact, I have a guy just showing my email players newsletter. I met him while I was speaking a couple of weeks ago. His name is Tyson (inaudible 33:34.0) I hope I said his name right. He is big in the (inaudible 33:36.3) world and he is a video guy. He is great. He is freaking genius at video. He is like (inaudible 33:40.6) all can be applied to video. I have another subscriber (inaudible 33:46.2) he is a rapper and he was like, Ben, I never write emails but I take it in (inaudible 33:52.2) he is on youtube and it work. So yeah, what you are saying is absolutely true. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah and so where I was going with that because I went off you know, total spider web there. One of my kind of theories is that you know, when you are doing this you are basically building a relationship and even if they are not because you said a while ago, you know, a lot of people -- they know they are going to buy, it is just kind of waiting for the right time whether it is money or whether they are too busy doing other stuff or whatever it is. Would you agree that writing daily emails or even just frequent emails or just having that relationship keeping constant touch, it really just sets -- it’s kind of sets the stage, it builds the trust so that whenever you come out with something, I think this is why you are such a good -- when you do affiliate programs it is because you built that trust you know with them. You built that relationship with them and it is like, it almost does not even matter what you are selling, it is just like oh well, Ben says this is good, therefore, I need it you know. Do you agree with that? Ben Settle: Yes and in fact, I am thinking -- all of the stuff. The relationship is far more important to go back and trying to build credibility and all the stuff because that is the credibility in fact that they like and trust you. That is why I said there is a different -- copywriting is different than email in that sense. Like copywriting has to be very specific because -- you know, it is a static thing (inaudible 35:13.5) everyday you do not have to pitch benefits and try to prove how great you are everyday. You just have (inaudible 35:18.1) with dialogue just like you would -- It is funny that you brought up like people just buy it. So I launched this product called Copy Slacker last February and you know, I ordered 50 sets of it because I do not think (inaudible 35:33.7) I thought I get 50 sales or maybe 40 sales. I have like a 177 and I do not know -- I doubt anybody, any of them really read the sales letter. (inaudible 35:48.2) told me, I just bought you know. So you are right about that and by being there, that is another reason to do daily emails you know everyday like a friend in their inbox. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. I have heard a lot of product launch you will see it is like you know, hey it is 12 o’clock, the cart is open and you have 10 sales at 12 o’clock exactly you know what I mean. Ben Settle: That is a function of a very good marketing. Well it is the very end of February, first couple of days in March I was -- I spoke at AWAI’s web copywriting intensive (inaudible 36:20.3) and Clayton Makepeace was there. It was honored to actually get to meet him and actually be on the panel. I was like, wow it was like my fan boy dream come true. I remember him teaching. He was -- what we are trying to do, what he was doing in his business is, he wants to (inaudible 36:37.1) so that the sales letters just not even necessary like the selling is already been done before I get there. And this is what emails (inaudible 36:44.4) you do (inaudible 36:45.4) it lets you sell before it is even like you said, the cart opens and it is got to be close in 20 minutes already because it is already sold out. Jeremy Reeves: Yep, yep. Who is that, I think it is Joe Polish that says, basically the you know, the product and marketing should make -- oh God, what am I trying to say. I am blanking here again, wow, I must be tired. Jesus. The purpose of marketing is to make selling superfluous you know what I mean. Ben Settle: That is all (inaudible 37:21.1) actually. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. I mean the purpose of marketing is basically so that when you are going to sell something they are already sold on it regardless of what it is. Obviously, as long as in touch with what they actually need you know what I mean. It is not like you can go and sell them like a garbage can and then they are going to buy it you know maybe you can, you should do a test. That will be funny. You should put your face on a garbage can. Let us see if it is (inaudible 37:43.2). Ben Settle: You know Jeremy I have a rather unusual example of this, okay. I wrote an email about this many years ago that did pretty well. So I live in Oregon, where it rains a lot. I live in Oregon (inaudible 37:56.8) specifically. (inaudible 37:58.4) it rains like 80 inches of rain a year right. It is raining all the time. When I first got my dog, she got to go out. I take her out in the rain because I have to take her out and she was just pacing around, sniffing around while I am getting soak and then she get into the position like she is going to take a crap right like a rabbit looking position and then she would like not crap and then she starts sniffing around me and she did that 2 or 3 times. I am out there for 20 minutes during this (inaudible 38:24.2) And I was like what the hell -- I called it phantom poop like she is acting like she would poop and she did not. Well then it dawned on me -- it did not take a long to dawned on me that -- if I just wait to take her out when she really has to go when like it is like a periscope coming out of her ass (inaudible 38:41.5) it is coming out, she will go right away and I thought isn’t that how it is with selling, like most products (inaudible 38:49.1) are phantom pooping basically. They acting like they are going to buy. They did not look. They did not sniff around a little bit maybe they can see some other options but if you wait to actually pitch them when they are ready to buy it is a much easier to sell. So I think that goes in line with what Joe Polish is saying. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely and by the way, please tell me that you have written about that in email. Ben Settle: I did. I wrote about that. In fact, this is an example all the time when I get the (inaudible 38:49.1) because it makes the point. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, it really does. It does. Well hey man, I have had a blast you know, I have learned a bunch. I am sure a lot of -- I am sure we have broken a lot of paradigms on this especially if you know anybody listening to this has not kind of been indoctrinated by the settle way. I hope you have kind of shifted some beliefs a little bit you know, I know your stuff gets really good results for a lot of different people in a lot of different industries you know. I always like to say that because people are like, oh my business is different and it is like, no, no. It is really not. Are you selling to (inaudible 39:51.5) yes. Okay, well no it is not. Ben Settle: Yeah. It is not different and you know what that is my whole goal on these things, is you give people options for thinking differently. They do not have to take my option but at least they know that it exist and if they want more they can you know, come to me for more of it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah and speaking of that you know, before we hop off, tell everybody you know, where they can find you you know, what should they do if they resonate with your -- you know, your style? Ben Settle: Okay, well, they should go to bensettle.com and if you give me your precious email address. I am not going to promise I am not going to abuse it or anything, but I am going to mail you okay, but if you give me your address, I will send you the first issue of my 97$ a month “Email Players” newsletter which is a prestigious newsletter, but I will send you the PDF of the first issue obviously, like my autoresponder and there are 24 ways in there that you can start making more sales with email (inaudible 40:44.1) right away. People have told me they made tens of thousands of dollars just with that free issue, it is yours. If you do not give me your email address you can still click through the blog and there is like almost 2,000 pages of articles on there well over a dozen audio hours of audio and video training, all free. it is bensettle.com. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and that will be in the show notes for everyone listening. So just you know, go in your phone and click in the show notes and you go right there. Ben it was a pleasure having you on. As always it was entertaining and educational. Thanks for coming on. Ben Settle: Thank you Jeremy. Good talking to you again too. Jeremy Reeves: Yep, you too. See you.

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  • 01:07:01

    Yaro Starak On Turning Your Blog Into A Profit Machine

    · Sales Funnel Mastery: Business Growth | Conversions | Sales | Online Marketing

    Today I interview Yaro Starak. Yaro is the ultimate authority on using your own personal blog to not just get more traffic to your website, but to actually make sales from that traffic. In this episode he shares his secrets on everything from coming up with new content approaches, to using storytelling to engage his readers and turn them into customers, to using your blog to put people into your funnel and have it work its magic. PLUS I share with you a way to get my own course, The Funnel Formula (sells for $497)... FREE when you invest in Yaro's new course he's launching this week. Make sure to SHARE this podcast/episode with your friends, then leave us a REVIEW and get my "101 Conversion Tips" Cheat Sheet... free! Send an email to support@jeremyreeves.com with the name on your review.   Resources Mentioned * www.Jeremyreeves.com/Yaro * www.entrepreneurs-journey.com Want To Work With Me? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey guys welcome back to another episode of the Sales Funnel Mastery podcast this is your host, Jeremy Reeves and today I have on the line Yaro Starak and I have actually been following Yaro for years now pretty much since I really got into -- when I first started my journey, it was in the affiliate world and I was doing blogging and that kind of thing and that is actually where I found him, it is probably about 7 or 8 years ago something like that, give or take a year or two. I have known about him for a long time, we finally kind of met up and got on the phone here. Yaro is from www.entrepreneurs-journey.com. So basically he focuses on showing you how to take your blog and become a full-time blogger and even if you own business you are not just doing blogging, how to take that blog and turn it into actual sales. That is one of the mistakes that most people make. They kind of blog just to blog and there is really no strategy behind it. Yaro really takes that and kind of, you know, multiplies the effect that you get so you get more traffic but not just more traffic actually more sales and we are going to talk about how to use your blog kind of as a like a tool just like you would use Facebook ads or anything else. Use that as one of your tools to get visitors and then put them into your funnel which then sells them your product and services. So Yaro, how are you? Yaro Starak: Good Jeremy, thanks for having me. I think we last -- it has been 7 or 8 years it has been a long time. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I have been kind of watching you from the -- you know, kind of stalking you for a little bit. You know, honestly blogging is one of the things that I should be doing more and I do a lot of, a lot of like guest blogging, things like that and it is always working really, really well for me and I just kind of never took that and did it on my own blog. So I am actually going to be interested in this conversation as well. So before we get into everything that we are going to talk about tell everybody about you know who you are, what you do and you know, and then we will go from there. Yaro Starak: Yeah, so my entire adult life pretty much has been spent online. I often say I fell in love with the internet back in 1998 when I was given my first (inaudible 3:40.2) account after enrolling in university in Brisbane, Australia. That was you know, a bit of a moment and it led to the creation of several website. So the first sort of successful when I had was a card game website about the game called Magic: The Gathering which I played in high school and little bit in university competitively. So I started little, basically from magazine-type website and then had an e-commerce store and then also a trading forum where people would trade their cards, so it was like a starting point business, it wasn’t the full time income, but while I was in the university it was a great business to run and learned probably more about internet marketing there than in any other time in my life and that led to wanted to do something a bit more full time and more serious after graduating from university. So I started what was an editing business. I was sort of trying to model the ebay model of connecting many buyers to many sellers. So I was trying to connect many editors and proofreaders, academic editors and proofreaders with university students, I am acting as a middle man between those 2 people predominantly students at English-speaking universities but they are coming from a non-English first language country. So they need a lot of help with their academic writing and that business was great. It was my full-time income post graduating university for a good number of years and it was actually in 2004 where someone said to me you should get a blog going because it is great for getting traffic from Google and you can pretty much just write this blog and you will get customers to your editing business was kind of like the conclusion I got. It did not work out that way, I did start a blog for the editing business but it was very difficult to write about editing and proofreading, a very, very boring subject for me, but it did teach me what blogging was compared to you know static brochure website which what everyone had back then. And that translated into a desire to explore this medium more but talk about different subjects. So by then I already had 6 or 7 years experience running online businesses, so that is when I registered this entrepreneurs-journey.com domain name purely thinking it is going to be hobby, you know, the domain was a bit janky. I started writing about what it is like to be an online entrepreneur, trying to, you know, reach out and connect to other people doing similar things and you know, it kind of (inaudible 6:06.9) now became my full-time business and took off and I sold my other businesses over the next few years and then, you know, after a couple of years of successfully making an income from blogging, I started teaching and that really, I think at that time probably close to around the time you would have heard about me, I launched one of the -- I think it is the first professional blogging course. So the first course that taught how to make money blogging back in 2007 so that is when I think I can get a lot of exposure, a lot of people came across to my work, but since then, I basically have been teaching people how to make money blogging but it has really turned a little bit in the last 3 or 4 years to like you said actually because back when I started blogging everyone was doing exactly what you said which sort of throwing content out the door and you make money because it was easier in the sense that you could just publish articles, Google what rewards you would traffic, you could slap some AdSense on or sell some banners yourself, maybe do a bit of affiliate marketing and you figure out the way to make a full-time income from it, where today that’s you know very half hazard strategy but it is probably not going to work, so you have to be much more strategic and that is why the process of going towards the sales funnel, selling your own products and service I believe has become so much more important and that is what I basically did around 2012, I said I am not doing anymore advertising, I am not focusing on affiliate marketing. I am focusing on my own products building a funnel. So I sort of spent the last 3 years building out a product (inaudible 7:38.5) in the funnel and trying to build a machine that runs behind my blog so that I can happily type away and write articles but knowing I am getting customers as a result of that, so that is what were up today. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice, yeah. That is a pretty cool story and I like that you took it like kind of a round robin, you know, all the way from the beginning, and I resonate with a lot of that stuff because even when you are talking about, you know, years ago you have been able to just throw up content and you know there wasn’t many competitors and Google did not really figure out how to, you know, I mean, you could do so many things to just, you know (inaudible 8:12.8) at Google, yeah, I remember putting keywords in the bottom of the page and white text. And then just do the AdSense and that kind of stuff and that is what I did, you know, I have blogs like that selling fitness products and all kinds of stuff back, you know, back in 2008 I think it was or may be 2007 something like that, yeah, I remember those days it is so much easier. Yaro Starak: For me, at (inaudible 8:41.4) one thing was very different back then compared to today. Everyone link to each other much more readily back then, you know. We did not have social media or so much. There was no Facebook, you know, the viral sharing on social media but bloggers would share each other’s content constantly like you do not have to even ask, you know, (inaudible 8:57.6) would publish a link to my blog once a week just because I had something relevant for bloggers, you know. Everyone was sort of cross linking but I think today it has gotten so crowded it still happens but it is not quite the same or become kind of more insular where you know we’re trying to -- I guess everything is bigger, that is basically the short answer so you know we are all building businesses now. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, nice, nice. So let’s get in. You were talking about kind of your journey the last couple of years and you realized how important having a funnel was. So what did that looked like. We will start with you, you know, what did that looked like for you and how did you, you know, what kind of strategy when you were into it and you were doing affiliate stuff and then you said, you know what, I need my own stuff then I got to have my own funnel and you know take all the profits myself essentially and use my blogging skills to then sell my own products. How did you -- how did you kind of go about that process? And what is your funnel look like today? Yaro Starak: Yeah, it is 2 phases really. So phase 1 was good old internet marketing advice which I was reading over and over again sort of in the mid 2000s you must have your own product if you really want to make good money. So I made $5 to $10 grand a month from advertising and selling affiliate products pretty much just with the blog and a freshly start email list. You know, I blog for a year before even having an email list which was a bit of mistake, but once I started getting more internet marketing training then I started to see how powerful email was. So that allowed me to start considering doing a product, you know, I -- like a lot of people, I was scared of will someone buy my stuff, you know. It is kind of safer to promote an affiliate product and if you do not make any sales it is not such a big deal but if you go in and do a launch and create your own ebook or your own course or membership site or something and then no one buys it -- you are kind of really afraid of that. It is like being rejected when you are trying to ask someone for a date, you know. No one wants to buy my stuff. So I had the usual fear and I think everyone does when they are just getting started about doing that. So, you know, I probably wasted about 8 months writing an ebook I never released and then when I released blog mastermind, my sort of first course back in 2007, the first version of it, it did well and it skyrocketed my income and that is when I went from making just salary to making over 6 figures a year. So that prove the point you have got to have your own product right, step 1. So I took that to (inaudible 11:24.1) released 2 more courses over the next 2 or 3 years one myself and one with a partner of mine, Gideon Shalwick, a video course, and we did really well, you know. That is how my business grew to selling over a million dollars worth of products through blogging and it taught me, Yes, products are great, but around that time I was also learning about this sales funnel concept. So, you know, I kept studying into the marketing and everyone was talking about, not everyone, (inaudible 11:52.0) it certainly talked about more nowadays so back then those sort of the -- the internet marketers are really in the trenches, we are talking about how you have to have a frontend product and then leads to you know upsales and then you have backend offers, and I got the logic, it made sense, you know. A lower price product to get people through the door, you will sell more of a lower price product so it will have more customers and therefore you can sell the higher price item still (inaudible 12:17.8) hyperresponsive customers plus it allowed you to create a funnel which you could use (inaudible 12:24.5) traffic for and that is -- (inaudible 12:26.6) hammered this concept (inaudible 12:29.3) in a course I took, he said, if your business is based on launches, you do not have a business. You need to be out to consistently source leads convert to know lifetime visitor value of the customer so you can grow a business and you have other people grow it for you, you know, other people can source traffic, other people can even create product and things for you. So I took that to heart but unfortunately, I think I burned out in product creation (inaudible 12:53.7) when I created 3 courses. I have done a ton of launches it was a very good 3 years. I made a lot of money but I just did not see myself sitting down and going and creating a bunch of new products, a bunch of frontend ebooks or something like that and doing all the emails required to link everything together. So I kind of put it all on hold to be absolutely honest and I actually startup in 2011 with a friend of mine, Walter Haas. It was a blog advertising system and I just -- I wanted to do something that was more tech silicon valley startup, less internet marketing sort of in (inaudible 13:27.7) publishing kind of world. And we had a good 2 year run with that business. It got some traction primarily because I had my own audience but we quickly realized we did not want to be in the space we were entering which was online advertising. We did not want to be sort of following people to try and convince them to buy ads and so on. So we kind of realized we either pivot completely, throw ourselves into an industry who do not want to be in or we stop. So we ended up stopping that one because we just did not want to do a startup and that kind of taught me that I did not want to do a silicon valley tech startup because it is kind of a job where you have a 12-hour a day, if you get investors, you suddenly got people you to have be accountable to because you are spending their money. It felt like a, kind of like the almost opposite of what I have been preaching and living with a, you know a lifestyle business because before then I have been all 2-hour workday so they are talking about even before Tim Ferriss was talking about you know the 4-hour work weeks. So I was totally onboard of that movement and I was living it and living it since the days of my editing business back in the early 2000. So I was not doing 12-hour a day, I was doing 2 hours here, 3 hours there, you know, eating lunch for a couple hours, watching back before Netflix, watching whole tv series and you know, socializing, exercising just really relaxing and having a great balance and I saw that is so important. So tech startup is not balanced and that is fine that is just the way that is, that is kind of like work hard and sell out and make a lot of money where I prefer the sort of work balance to make good money while you were doing it and that experience showed me how important that was to me, so when we closed everything down towards sort of -- start of 2012 I was like -- I am going to go back and I felt rejuvenated basically to really build a funnel and do it properly. By then though I chap down every course I had. So I was essentially starting from scratch when it came to product. I had my blog and my audience still. I have been keeping that going, enjoying riding. I always love driving but I did not have a product so it was kind of nice because I had the power of being able to structure a funnel from start to finish in my head and then execute it in a certain order without the pressure of you know, I have got to make certain amount of money from this within, you know, certain amount of time. So I could say (inaudible 15:49.4) we will build a lower price product first even though I know I would not make the big money until I do the backend stuff, but there is a logic of sequence here, so my thinking back then was -- and this is literally what I spent the last 3 years creating and executing this vision. I have done a few things and I know how to teach a few things and I can see some frontend products, so I had a vision for product on blog traffic, being a very popular subject. Frontend product and mindset and productivity and a fronted product on buying and selling blogs and website as a sort of investment strategy which is something I did for a number of years as well. And I also wanted to get a product based on podcasting in the sense that if you are giving away free audio and your good at creating interviews why not create a product that is interviews so I wanted to do kind of like the old CD of the month club that people you know might remember, you subscribe to get a CD in the mail, in might be an interview or I subscribe to a couple Perry Marshall and Eben Pagan, so they send me an interview and I pay $30 a month or something like that. So I thought why not do something like that for MP3 interview, so -- and the way I started to see this was, okay, these are frontend products targeting specific niches in my niche (inaudible 17:08.8) money and blogging. The interview product is a great upsale, it’s -- you know, do you want to have a 1 month free trial when you buy the ebook, so that is my first upsale. So I ended up creating the interview product first, then creating the ebooks and then once all the ebooks were done I could bundle them so you could buy all 3 for the price of 2 at the checkout instead. So it gave me a lot more options, but of course that was all leading to the creation of you know flagship course which was very clear in my head there was a lot of need from my blog mastermind training but the whole program needs to be recreated from scratch because it was back in 2007 I needed a current methodology and which is what I was practicing myself then I was -- as I have said no longer doing advertising, no longer doing affiliate marketing. I was focusing on various strategic email sequences. So each of those ebooks has a specific sequence of blog posts that are link together through an email course that lead to the selling of that product. That product then has the bundle options, the upsale options and then it leads eventually to the backend product as you know, the next step if they want to take that. So that is pretty much where I am at today as we were recording this. Everything I thought about in 2012 has been done except for a few email sequences. Most of my job for the next year is actually going to be sitting at cafes and writing backend email sequences and engagement sequences to link all the products I have created in the last 3 years together. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice and I like that. It is important to you know, to get them all the -- to link together. I was actually just talking to someone yesterday and he was doing really good. He sold like an an $11 product. It was just like a really low end like, you know that kind of thing and you know, he is like, oh I have $20,000 customers, I am like, Oh what else do you sell them. So I said you know what else do you have to sell them and he was like, nothing I just had the 1 product and I am like, Oh my God, c’mon, like you have 20,000 customers and you are not selling them anything but a $10 product, you know. Yeah, so needless to say, I am going to be helping him, figure that out. Yaro Starak: Yeah, seriously. Jeremy Reeves: But yeah, I mean it is important to have all the backend stuff because that is -- and a lot of people miss that, it is like -- it is exciting getting customers for the first time, you know what I mean, like the frontend. It is definitely the most exciting part of business, the frontend product from whatever reason just you know, you are turning them from prospect into a customer. It is -- for some reason, it is not as exciting to turn a customer into a higher end and repeat customer, you know, but it is so crucial if you want to actually grow your business, you know, you need that backend. You know I am glad to hear that over the last couple of years everything is kind of come in together, you know, that is good. Yaro Starak: You know, I think for me, the most exciting part was like -- because I sold product before but what I have not done was just have a blog with an automated email sequence that sells a product with an upsale and knowing that that would sell without me doing anything because in the past it was all send out a bunch of emails for launching something, right. I sold affiliate products off the back of just blog post but it is different when you wake up and you have sold an ebook because someone, you know, done a Google search, come across a blog post, joined an email list, gone through a sequence of messages that you know wrote strategically to educate and build trust and then make an offer for this frontend product and then they bought it and you did not do anything that was all -- you created that 2 months ago or something. So I think the moment I made the first ebook sale was really validating moment that the machine can work behind the platform that you build, you know. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, it really is. I remember my first, you know the first one when I sold, and even my wife and I were actually just -- we just took the kids on a little get away over this last past weekend and when I woke up, I took the weekend off, I did not even check the email or anything and then I woke up Monday morning and looked at my product sales and realized that the product sales just over the weekend paid for the entire vacation that we just went, you know, actually more than -- so it is a very cool you know experience when it just, it just happens. Yaro Starak: When you get there. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, like you do not have to send out a broadcast, you do not have to do an affiliate promotion, you do not have to like set up this big JV launch and all that kind of stuff, it just happens regularly. And that is, you know, most of what I do for, you know, with my clients and all that, setting all that up for them. Yaro Starak: Yeah, I mean you know, I mean obviously you and I got in touch because I am doing a big launch, you know and it is reminding me how much more work (inaudible 21:54.4) big launches, you know, like all these contacts, all these setting up for pages, you know. Basically, hoping and praying everyone will promote what you are doing at the same time. I have always love the idea of being in control of your audience, right and that is why obviously having a list is a good thing but -- and this is I think where I, like I have really benefited is having a blog and building something long term because -- and this is something I am not proud of but I have not actually done much buying traffics, but I have been able to do what I do because the leads keep coming from blog post I wrote 7 years ago, 6 years ago, and you know -- you do not (inaudible 22:35.0) that is why I am big proponent blogging itself because it can be a huge traffic source plus I think it is still one of the best sort of -- it is the best platform even if you are doing paid traffic. For example, you are sharing content on Facebook ads, chances are you are sharing an article from your blog on a Facebook ad but yes it is meant to get them onto a converting email list, but it is still content that begins the conversation through blogging so you know, I am always raving about the need for blogs. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. Like you said like, you have not done much paid but everybody has things -- like that is your strength, so you know, if you are not into paid and you do not like the risk and you do not know how to do it and set it up and you know be continually testing and tweaking the funnel to make it work and all that kind of stuff then there is really no point in doing that because it is not what you are good at, you know, that is not like your strength. Your strength is doing, you know, doing blogging and doing that all the right way so that you do not have to worry about paid traffic, you know. So let us kind of switch gears and talk you know more about actual like blogging you know strategies and tactics and things like that to get them into your funnel, you know, so things like you know the structure (inaudible 23:49.9) and the quantity and like how often you should be doing it and things like that. So one of the things I have always been curious of is, you know, I have heard -- I think I heard this from, it might have been (inaudible 24:01.5) I do not know, somebody. But like -- blogging, you know what are your thoughts on blogging like in the aspect of, should you be doing blogging every day, every week, every you know once a month, you know, does the quantity matter and then when you put out a post, is it more effective to put out more post or to put out less post and then focus on the promotion of the post? Does that make sense? Yaro Starak: Yeah, totally. I know Derek has been a big proponent of -- it is about (inaudible 24:34.5) more marketing than contact creation. I certainly agreed with him it has changed back when I started (inaudible 24:40.5) write everyday because we just get reward for doing that. Today, you better off you know, to put a bit of effort into 1 amazing post and then going out there and promoting it, but I think there is even a step before that that needs to be addressed and I am always been a big strategic thinker and this is something that I only really applied once I fully adopted the concept of the blog sales funnel or the sales funnel in general. And it is so, even the way you ask this question does not include this thing and it really should which is, deciding on the business intent of content before you produce it. And that is the question that a lot of people do not know how to answer especially if you are new to this like people think well I know this, I will write some blog posts, I will get some traffic (inaudible 25:24.4). Yes, I will have to market a bit harder. I will have to push some on Facebook, I have to do some guest writing, I am going to bring this people back to my blog and then they are going to join my email list and buy my stuff. That is kind of like the basic idea, but you are missing the strategic intent behind the content itself. So the way I like to look at it is -- and it works brilliantly with the funnel because you think, okay, I have created this funnel, the sequence of the frontend, we will call it the frontend funnel for the time being, series of frontend information. It is very targeted right, you know. For example, I have got a client who deals with adult acne and she has an academy basically for that. So -- which she has an email sequence that is going to give -- gives advice on how to deal with acne if you are an adult woman basically. So I do not know how linear she has gotten with it lately but for example, you could have the -- I am going to teach the food aspect, the diet aspect of this and there is going to be an email sequence that strategically information on how to eat right and know what to do with your acne, if you are an adult woman, and that then sells your academy or your frontend ebook whatever it is you sell. Now that is a much more linearnish specific subject then just general treating acne. So you are going after the food aspect and you are going after women. So when you go in produce blog content or do more marketing in general, you have to think well how do I get that person with this content, because that is what you are doing. So it then dictates what goes into the blog post, the language you use in the blog post, how you write the headline for the blog post and then it dictates where are you going to try and get an exposure for it, you know. You might even write a core big blog post for the blog knowing that you are going to do some guest posts on, you know, some women’s magazines, revealing the hidden aspects of diet when it comes to acne treatment. You are going to do guest posts specifically on that subject to bring them back specifically to this longer more in depth blog post specifically to get them to opt into the funnel that leads to them buying that product as they go through, you know, more free information about that. But it makes you think about -- alright, who am I going after, what am I selling, where I want them to go through my business and that is all much more strategic then I am just going to write some post and market them. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. And I can even see like, you know, one good question to make it really simple is when you are sitting down and you are saying, okay I am going to write blog post or like a lot of my you know, the people listening to this probably are not doing the blog post themselves, some of them would be. But a lot of people are going to have content writers on their team right, me included because I have kind of a side business and set up the exact same way. So I can even see like instead of just saying, okay let us do, you know, this topic and this topic, just ask yourself why, you know, why are you doing that topic, you know, how does that -- does it lead into and (inaudible 28:30.7) that you have, does it lead into, you know, the next so like does it kind of pre sell them on one of your products, does you know -- like you were just talking about. But I think, I think the big thing here is just asking why and not just doing it to do it, but doing it for an actual purpose. Yaro Starak: Yeah, I made that shift in the last -- really in the last year particularly with my content because I was writing so many funnels and it is so strange like I used to just kind of write what I was thinking, what I was doing and nothing wrong with that. I built my entire regional blog business on that principle but ever since I have been thinking, well, I am creating funnels and selling products. Usually, when I write a blog post, it is actually part of the funnel, it is like one of the post I would actually send to my email in a sequence that leads to another post that leads to an offer then leads to a special for 1 week with a deadline because that is usually what drives the sales you know and that is -- it is all into link. So in fact if you dig through my most recent blog post to the last sort of 12 months, they all be related to a product. I was either building a funnel for or -- in fact, even today in my actual sales pages for products or blog posts. So it is very blog dependent and the email is still the thread that connects everything that all the content now besides the products themselves exists on the blog, so it is blog post, its interviews, its sales pages and it is just about bringing people to the blog and then bringing people to the right post to the right offers and automating that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. And it almost sounds like -- I have 2 things that popped up while you were saying that. One is that when you were saying that, it almost sounds like you took the product (inaudible 30:10.9) formula and put it into like a blog, you know, concept. Yaro Starak: Yeah, it is a (inaudible 30:18.7) it is (inaudible 30:19.6) formula combined with sales funnel marketing, combined with blogging and email. That is pretty much it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, nice. And then the other thing I was thinking of is -- I have a lot of clients that do, you know, one of the things with Facebook is that a lot of times like anymore they are starting not to like when you just send the ad right to it, let us just say it is a -- landing page whether it is a free report or webinar, whatever it is. A lot of times they do not really like that anymore and you will pay really high clicks and your relevancy scores really bad so a lot of -- Yaro Starak: Sorry you are just cutting out a bit Jeremy. Jeremy Reeves: Sorry, can you hear me now? That is not good, Yaro? Yaro Starak: Yeah, sorry I missed a little bit, buy I know you are saying. You are saying basically landing page or webinar and Facebook ads found on that. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. So what a lot of people are doing -- it is basically like a native ad kind of thing where you build a really, a really, really solid you know blog post and a lot of them are like you know, it is 2000, 3000 words. And then what happens is, in that blog post they have links going to the landing page and then also what they do is retarget them onto the landing page. So like if they get, you know, whatever 10,000 clicks and a lot of times the clicks are like 30 cents, so they are spending like couple hundred bucks and then they retarget all those people back to the actual landing page. Kind of like what you were saying is those posts are setup in a way that it presells them on the next step essentially like -- it kind of, a lot of times there will be open loops in it and then the landing page or whatever the next step is, kind of closes the loop and that kind of thing and it sounds like a very similar, a very similar strategy you know, and it is something that a lot of people do not do, you know. We are talking about before, they kind of just right to write and it does not really matter, you know, what it is about, it is kind of just to get content there. Yeah, I think it’s -- you know there are so many people that they kind of feel like and you would know more about this than me obviously, but you know, do you feel like a lot of people I feel like would look at blogging and be like, oh, I do not have time for that and that kind of thing, you know, I do not know if it is going to be too much of a long term thing, but it does not really have to be that way I feel. You know, obviously it is a long term strategy in the sense that, you know, you can get long term results given 10 years, still getting sales and opt in stuff from the things you did, you know, 4, 5, 6, 7 years ago and I have had the same experience with my, you know, the guest articles that I have done. I still get leads from things I have done several years ago. What are your thoughts on that with like, you know, are there ways to -- let us say that somebody does not even have a blog right now and they do not want to wait 6 or 12 months, you know, are they ways to use a blog to be able to get quick results? Yaro Starak: Yeah, I think -- you kind of mention what I think it is inevitable here is you kind of have to have a content platform no matter what you do, even the blog itself is not driving a lot of traffic, it is the place you send your paid leads to because it is much friendlier, put it that way I mean. A blog is what the web looks like today when you go to, you know, read content even if you find the news article, you know, probably through Facebook web space. I think a lot of source are news Facebook now and then it gets driven to you know business insider or Mashable or Techcrunch or whatever in each content site you currently have an interest in whether it is you know, cooking or celebrity gossip or something, it is a blog, it is a site that has got content producers, it has got a navigation bar, it is probably got some ads somewhere on it and that is what we I guess see as a friendly site that is giving us information. So, you know, you do not have to have a blog that is well developed, years of content in the archives. You could just write the key blog posts on the blog, present it through this as I have said friendly format and then go out there and do buy paid traffic and as you said, send people to specific articles in that post that then lead to the actual opt in process. So you are actually building trust instead of going, hey stranger come and opt in from my stuff, you are saying, hey stranger read this great post then if you want more, opt in to my stuff. So it is just traditional, I mean, this is marketing 101, build trust, get some goodwill generated before you ascend to do something, do not take a deduction from the goodwill bank before you put something in there. That is what the blog post can do. So I think everyone is actually gonna have to have a content platform simply for that reason whether you are doing Facebook ads, Google ads, Twitter ads, Pinterest ads, Instagram ads, you know, retargeting across span of network. It is all driving to content and then content opt in and then even the opt in still driving it back to content, let us face it, you know, most people they either putting the content in the email itself or they are linking to post probably on the blog. So you kind of -- kind of (inaudible 35:25.8) in some regard, but I think there is though a spectrum of people who love paid advertising and you just take content, right. The content part is the -- do I have to put content, can I just buy ads and send people to my office and they buy it, right. And these people probably are comfortable more so with the marketing and the selling aspect. They love to get people on the phone to sell their product so they can skip the content, get them started on the phone and try and convert that way, they comfortable with that. People I tend to deal with these sort of introverted content producing but shy blogger types who do not like a hard sell would never want to get people on the phone to try and convert. They just want to write great content and sell their products but they struggle with the selling part, the marketing part. So but you can find a happy medium where you still use your content but you still source traffic in various way whether through search optimization, through content or it is paid traffic still driving to content, you know, you can find where you fit. I just think the blog is kind of like -- it is almost mandatory now unless, you know, depending on your niche if you have a brand new niche maybe that does not have many competitors which frankly I do not if there are any more of those. You know, you can get away with it but I think most, the experience of most paid per click marketers is they might get a rich (inaudible 36:48.4) of traffic that works for a few months and then it gets competed away or something changes in the way at platform let you buy traffic and you start to realize I need a way to first capture leads before trying to make a sale and I have do it in a much more softer content-focus approach. So the blog is the first step or may be the podcast, you know, which still is hosted on the blog. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah it is true. You were saying with paid traffic, you might have like originating and then it kind of, you know, it either dries up or you are just paying too much. I can personally attest to that because I got -- I used to get a lot of my leads for, you know, for copywriting through AdWords and a couple of years ago like 2 or 3 years ago I forgot, it was like roughly a $1 or $1.50 or so a click, right. And it was like, oh you know this is perfect. And then you know, they did not like that I actually got my client’s results and kick me off. So I got kind of blacklisted from AdWords and then a couple of months ago it has probably been, I do not know, maybe 3 months, I put up like a whole new website and it was like it is really just send me there like no testimonials, there is no result shown like anything which kind of suck because you know, I (inaudible 38:05.2) from my clients but again (inaudible 38:07.2) talk about it just because of the way AdWork does. But the point in that is I am now paying it, it is only 2 or 3 years later I am now paying like $4 a click whereas it used to be like a $1 or $1.50 you know, for me it is still worth it but for most people it is not, you know. That is happening like all over the place even Facebook now it is, you know, it is getting harder and harder already, you know and it is still a pretty new media platform. It is already getting harder and harder to make work and you are starting to have to or just used to be you know a couple, I do not know, maybe earlier this year, you could still just send people to landing page and it was just, you know, you are paying a dollar click to a landing page and boom it was beautiful and that kind of thing and then they were like, nope, we do not like landing pages anymore, now you have to go to content and all that kind of stuff and that adds more complexity. Yaro Starak: It is a near like history repeating itself. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I know. And then you know, a couple of years from now there is going to be another big thing and the same thing is going to happen, you know, it is going to -- like an Instagram that is one of the new things now. So in the same thing is going to happen there, you know, right now it is cheap clicks. I have not tried it out yet but I want to. It is cheap clicks and that kind of thing and then eventually the whole things going to repeat itself, you know, whereas blogging it just -- it has been the same since the first blog was developed. It is written in the same way, you can use the same strategies -- I mean it is a lot -- the strategies are different now in terms of you know being like you actually have to be strategic, you cannot just throw up content like we were talking about. But the way that you do it is still pretty much, you know, the same (inaudible 39:52.0) basically the same, you know. Yaro Starak: Yeah, it is because we control the platform that is all has been the difference, right. I can do my blog whatever I want, were Facebook decides how your ad should be and Youtube decides how your ad should be and Google decides how your ad should be. You know, I love the fact that I control an entire page of testimonials at people and that is not going to get block like you said you experience, right. So in fact, testimonial podcast which pretty much are podcast masking these testimonials or may be testimonials masking the podcast (inaudible 40:25.1) but basically, I do interviews with my successful clients and its great content but it is also a massive endorsement of my stuff. So you know that is content I send and people love it but it is actually a very overt in some ways picture my products and totally you get away with that the same what you could on you know paid platforms. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Alright, so when you are -- let us just say that someone right now is you know, they are like alright this sounds good, I am going to start blogging again or maybe they are already blogging and looking for ways to basically get better results from it. So we already talked about a bunch of different things to do that but when it comes to -- 2 kind of like big questions that I want to make sure. We already went over a quantity, so it is kind of like a mix of you know doing it frequently and then promoting it you know. It is really not clear, it is kind of like you buff essentially. And then in terms of length and structure those are the 2 big questions that I am kind of curious to know, you know. Have you found in terms of like SCO you know, getting more visitors to the page. Have you find any differences in the length of the blog posts? Yaro Starak: Yeah well you know, when I started, I was running what you called a magazine blog and I still distinguish these 2 types of blogs. One is a magazine so you are producing a lot of content. You probably got multiple writers and you are doing where news based in the moment content that is not really relevant, you know the week later even a day later sometimes versus an expert based blog which usually is more one individual blogger sharing their content, teaching, advising, educating and then selling their products and services like we have been talking about. And those types of bloggers they might publish once a month but when they do that it is a fairly in depth robust content piece that is, you know, meant to stand the test of time it is not news it is evergreen it will be that relevant, you know, like I said I wrote a blog post on the 80/20 rule back in 2006. In fact it is still my highest search volume piece of content to my blog it got many because it ranks in the top 3 for the phrase 80/20 rule on the internet on Google. I wrote that after just learning about the concept myself and applying it to my own life and it continues to deliver that result. I do not think if I have written a news post about a piece of 2006 news that would not be getting me any traffic necessarily right now and that is maybe I wrote about Donald Trump or something like that because (inaudible 42:57.6) right. So I think the short answer is again, intent behind content. If you are going purely for SCO there is a different strategy for that. If you just want to rank highly then you are going to throw in a lot more keyword research. You are going to throw in competitive research to see what other sites are ranking for that term whatever pages. So that is why I think the biggest question that everyone drops and forgets about when they start blogging is why am I writing this blog post. What its purpose and really drilled down is it designed to sell a product, is it designed just to get you more traffic through a search engine, is it meant to be thrown out there through a paid advertising, you know, what is it going to do, it probably going to do multiple things like you might say yes, I am trying to get search traffic and I want to use it paid per click and I want to sell my product with it which is fine you know you can achieve that but be cognizant of what you are doing. So you are going to have to put in you know more work. So from my point of view, I have always been a long post writer, so to go back to your sort of question, way back when people were putting out research saying the post that get shared the most and go viral are between 400 and 700 words that was the research. At that time I suspect that still holds true if we are talking about that masked consumption entertainment type of content. That is not necessarily unless your job is you are running a magazine. It is not going to what you wanted to do. So I always love to just get everything I thought about a subject out into blog post. So I predominantly write 2,000 or 3,000 words. If I started pushing towards 4,000 or 5,000 words I break it down into 2 or 3 posts and start creating series. If I really have a lot to say those series would actually become ebooks. So I might write 9 to 10 posts and I compiled them into a pdf download. So you know you got options and I think, as I have said the intent is more important but also your overall strategy you know. I have got my 2 best case studies ironically people who I have coached in the past who both have blogs that today make several million dollars a year. One is about cars in Australia and one is about basically sports coverage in all over the world and both of those guys are running magazines with teams of writers. One is more of corporate in structure where they got a CEO, you know they are getting ready to (inaudible 45:27.3) stock market. The other one does not have that corporate structure but it still got that were producing 30 blog posts a day or covering news on every sport and they are doing predominantly income from advertising but also affiliate marketing and selling a membership sites. So you know that (inaudible 45:44.7) can do really well but I think as an individual and most people I work with today, I have people probably like you do who are an expert at something or went through a life experience that allows them to then teach. Now what they are trying to do is take their knowledge, their expertise, their advice and package it into digital content that they can sell and give away for free. So the blog and the email list becomes vital and writing a 3,000 word blog post on how to each write for covering from adult acne is not going to work in a 700 word blog post. You need the space of thousands of words to really deal with that subject and put pictures in there, maybe a video or two really hammer that home, but then you can go forever and say, you know what, you are diet is not right go read this blog post. You can say that in person, you can say that on a podcast, you can say that on forum when you are interacting with, you can post it on Facebook. You know, you can go everywhere and just be proud and know that this blog is going to really help people and it is going to convert them onto your email list as well because you obviously going to put you know sign up here for my audio series on this subject or my video series on this subject and I have lots of opt in box all over that post in order to convert the lead to. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, sounds good. Yeah that all make sense. So my last question that I have -- that I have always been kind of curious of is how about the structure, you know, the structure like when you sit down and you sit down and you say okay I am going to write a blog post about this and here is the reason why I am going to write it you know you have the intent for it. Is there like any kind of like kind of you know magical structure that you used or is that different based on the type of blog post it is or like for example, you know in copywriting there is like the AIDA formula you know, attention interest desire action or anything like that or do you start off with like a story or you know any kind of like certain structure you follow or is it kind of a different based on the end goal of the post. Yaro Starak: Yeah, I mean it is copywriting you know it is (inaudible 47:58.7) overlap maybe it is a little bit more narrative than copywriting although I think most good copywriting is very narrative based anyway. I certainly whole heartedly endorse and use constantly storytelling I think you know that is, by far, the most engaging format of content. I think it should be in your products, should be in your blog post, should be in your emails, it should be the start of everything really certainly at sales pages. What I find as a formula though -- you know, first of all you are, going back to that, alright, what is the purpose for this article, you know the purpose of it and you are thinking okay what is my little niche topic here and you might be thinking well let us stick with the same story we have been running with which is the adult acne and diet. You might go I used to eat a lot of fruit, alright. So you start telling the story about your previous self and how you might wake in the morning, you have a bowl of yogurt with some bananas and you know, so and so and then at lunch time, you have you know an apple maybe then a smoothie in the afternoon and you saw it because it is fruit it was really healthy. Every day you would also wake up with more pimples on your face and you are going, I thought I am eating really healthy how am I getting an acne I am not eating chips, I am not eating chocolate, I am not eating candy not realizing that there might be a correlation between you know the sugars in the fruit or something that can lead to the acne. I am obviously not saying that is necessary the case for the sake of my example here. Jeremy Reeves: Just an example. Yaro Starak: You know that sound kind of like could be true. So you know you are telling that story from your previous life and what I like is very much that attention, interest, desire kind of formula maybe not as rigid as that but making sure those elements are in there where you are introducing something you went through or someone you have worked with went through or someone you know went through or may be a celebrity went through and that is the typical heroes journey where they start with the problem but they have an aha moment. I am a really big fan of revealing aha moments through storytelling and that creates the mindset shift necessary to open up their mind to actual how to teaching to. So story, heroes journey, introduce the problem, they have an aha moment, they see the solution to the problem they experienced it and then you actually tie the blog post off with the here is the how to steps to do this in your life. So that is when you put a dot point list and it is quite well known. You know dot points, bullet point list, numbered list that makes for you know easier digestion of content more likely to be shared so if you can combine storytelling with how to that is chunk down into really easy to apply bullet point steps and then tie it into a next step as well obviously you are ending the post with you know if you, if you actually want my 7 day guide for doing this whole process opt in here and I will send you the download, you know the pdf download. So it kind of flows from story to educating them on the mindset of the solution to giving them the steps to implement the solution to saying if you want more here is the guide. So that is kind of like roughly the way a lot of my blog posts and email lists you know the call to action can change but it is almost always story first how to set in and then call to action. I am a big fan of also what I learned through I think Eben Pagan was the first person, the different learning styles where you got the why, what, how, what if. I would not go into much detail but it is pretty simple. Everyone has a different way of basically paying attention to content, you know how you grab them. So if you are why learner, you need to know why you need to listen to this. So you know for this podcast, you would say, you need to listen to this because you are going to see the right way to blog if you want to sell your products and services so that is why you should listen, so that will grab your attention of the why people. The what people will say, I am interviewing Yaro Starak who has been blogging for 10 years and has perfected a system called the blog sales funnel for selling products and services for only a blog. So that gives them what, what is the science, what is the system, what is the practice this based on, why is it legitimate basically. And you have got the how, which is pretty straightforward. Step 1 setup a blog. Step 2, setup an email. So you are going to teach people to steps and that is usually what a lot of people on the internet seemed to love. They love how to. And the last group the what if learners. They are the practicers. They want to actually see how this can be implemented in their life and what they will often do is hear the one thing they need to hear in something and then run away and do it. So you often need to say, for example if you listen to this podcast with Yaro Starak you are going to be able to go away, setup your blog and make 2 or 3 specific strategic blog post that will lead to selling more of your products and you can go away and do that immediately after listening to this podcast. So that is giving them the what will happen if they apply what if in this education. So I pretty much cover all 4 of those in most of my major piece of the content so free reports, products, you know webinars maybe not in every blog post because it kind of be, you know difficult to do it in 2000 words but if you keep yourself aware of stories as well as the learning styles call to action and then you can do pretty well. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. That was awesome. That was worth (inaudible 53:34.0) people listening to that, you know, worth listening to the whole interview and you know plus everything else (inaudible 53:39.5) but yeah that really helps them and I fully agree by the way and you know as everybody knows like I am copywriter doing every day of my life and storytelling really is like the best way because what happens like the big thing with storytelling, the reason why I work so well is because when people are reading sales messages and when they are reading really any kind of content, they always have like -- they always have like the flags coming up you know. They are waiting for some reason to not want to listen to you, you know and so they are looking for that reason and they are kind of like defensive when they are reading it and storytelling allows you to kind of slip under that and tell them what you want to tell them but like masked by the story, you know what I mean. Like there is a lot of -- I forgot what they call it, I mean there is a million things even the you know, even like things like the bible you know, I mean that is basically one big long story that is teaching you all these like life lessons etc. And really that is -- it is the best way to tell people what you want them to believe by the end of the page whether it is a sales letter or blog post or whatever it is without raising those flags you know, so I would highly, highly recommend if there is anything that you guys get out of this its start telling more stories and everything that you do, whether it is blog post, whether it is a sales letter or emails, regardless of this and anybody on my email list knows that pretty much every email that goes out there is some kind of story attached to it you know. Jason Swenk: You know, I read some (inaudible 55:11.4) actually writing some copy and I want to really explain the importance of storytelling and there was this Spanish academic study where they were scanning brains and watching what part of the brain fired up basically listening to (inaudible 55:24.6) you know reading an ad or telling the story or something. So what they had is they had basic content that did not use more descriptive language, it was you know more facts and figures and it could be describing the features rather than the benefits if you are looking in copywriting right, and only 1 part of the brain fired up, but when they started to describe things in more emotive language like describing a smell or describing a feeling or you know something that actually fires up a different part of the body not just the analytical part but when you think of a smell, you actually start to smell it. So your brain fires up the smelling part of you know the (inaudible 56:01.6) actually smelling the smell. The brain thinks you are because you are thinking about it. So what was interesting was the you know the retention and the engagement was so much higher when you are activating those other parts of the brain rather than the just purely analytical part and it made me think, yeah, this is the key because a story works because you put yourself in the footsteps of the people in the story right, the protagonist so you feel them climbing the mountain in the Lord of the rings, you know, same with the movie, you know, you feel the intense, the rush of the adrenaline when you are racing the car where if you just talking about this is the fast car, you know, it does not give you that cross-body functions experience and that is how why, how and why storytelling can work so much better because as you have said, it bypasses that I am just getting sold (inaudible 56:51.5) telling me about product versus I am smelling and experiencing and feeling the sadness, the happiness, the achievement whatever it is that story takes the person through and then it connects it with the product and you have got you know, great marketing, great copywriting. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and that is the key with stories like you cannot just --- it is almost the same as you know a big theme of what we have been talking about is you actually have to have an intent behind the story just like behind the blog post, you know. Just because you are telling a story does not mean that it is the right story like, you know. I can be selling a car and if I am telling somebody a story about how you know, I went to you know India and rode an elephant you know, there is really no -- there is really no connection between that you know. So just because it is a story does not mean it is going to help you sell. You have to you know, the story has to have a purpose, you know. It has to have a lesson in it or you know be able to like explain something that (inaudible 57:48.2) you know or whatever the case is. Yaro Starak: Although I bet you could tie the elephant to a car but you know slow travel versus quick travel, you know. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and that is a good skill to have is being able to take stories in your life. The other day, I have -- I do not know if you know the money tree is, but it is basically just a plant and it is called the money tree but I have one of these. I have one in my office and the other day I was going and I noticed there is like a little bit of dust on one of the leaves so I was like, I was kind of like you know getting some of the dust off of the leaves and that kind of thing and I came back and I forgot what the transition was but I came back and I actually wrote copy based on that like just based on touching a plant, you know. For some reason, it reminded of me something. I cannot think of what it was of the top of my head but having that ability to be able to say, okay you know, I just waxed my shoes and how was that -- how can I apply that to like you know, turn into story which teaches a lesson you know, maybe -- I do not know if you are selling something on like personal development, you could talk about how you know, you are waxing your shoes and it reminded you of how important it is to have patience with your children, I do not know, you know, something like that. That is really an important skill to have and it is one thing like, I do not think it comes naturally for a lot of people it is something that you have to purposely do you know, and I actually used to -- before I really started getting an emails and stuff, I mean this is years and years and years ago. I actually used to just look at things in my room and just randomly like closed my eyes and point to something and forced myself to come up with a story based on whatever I was pointing at. It could be like the ceiling, it could be you know, the rug, it could be door handle and then somehow make a transition from that into you know, an email or blog post whatever. And then you get good at it. Yaro Starak: Exactly. I mean that is -- I am never been a paid copywriter or train copywriter but you keep blogging, you are exactly right. You have to keep seeing stories in every moment of your life and it translates into content and even if you are not -- I think you should blog this for the sake of that reason alone just to practice the art of writing and the art of storytelling that leads to selling to. But even if you are not necessarily a content creator, you have to use copy. Your ads have to have copy, your emails have to have copy. You cannot get away having internet business without some kind of copy. So practicing the art is definitely worthwhile. Jeremy Reeves: Definitely, definitely. Alright, so I learned a lot on this. I know just -- you know, from my own kind of personal use and I am sure anybody that is listening to this. If you have a blog, I am sure that you have already heard a bunch of different things that you should be doing to improve the results you are getting. And if you do not have a blog, hopefully we kind of sold you on the idea that you need one, you know. Like Yaro said it is not really a matter of like having one or not like it should be a necessity that you have one. It is a matter of how often you do it and how much you are utilizing it you know, because like you said you can use it -- you can have 1 blog post and it is kind of like a multifaceted thing. You can use it to get SCO and you know generate leads and sales and use it for a paid post like for Facebook or whatever or use it for JV Partners to send people to you know, whatever the case is you know, put it in forms and all that kind of stuff. So you definitely need to do all these. So before we get off I just want to take a second you know, let everybody -- there are 2 things you know, first of all let everybody know how they can get in touch with you and maybe follow your blog and that kind of thing and then when we’re going to be releasing this. You are starting kind of your prelaunch for your blog mastermind 2.0 and I want to -- I am going to send everybody to a link that I have and basically my kind of offer that I am going to give everybody if they you know, well first of all you know, just sign up for whatever is you know, whatever he is doing like with the content because the content is going to be outstanding you know, just alone even if you do not buy the course and everything like that. But what I am going to do is if anybody goes through my link and buys Yaro’s new course that is coming out with as you know, the link will send you to. I am actually going to give you a copy of my own course, the funnel formula which is $500 on its own by the way. So that is going to be, that is going to be my offer and if you do it just email me the receipt and I will set you up a membership for it but -- so I am going to give that link after you give yours so go ahead and tell everybody you know, what is the best way that they kind of follow you, get in touch with you, learn more about you, contact you and that kind of thing. Yaro Starak: Yeah, yeah. By the time you are listening to this, the thing you want to go and grab as a starting point is my blog profits blueprint. Now, Jeremy, you should have a link for that I think is a worth giving out because then the people who do buy to get your bonus it will track that correctly. So I think the first thing you want to give people is a link to the blog profits blueprint and then yes that is an 88-page document. The first version of that I obviously updated it but the first version of that came out in 2007. It has been downloaded well over a 150,000 times and it is really a starting point for so many blogs. I am amazed how many people come up in the events and say, you know what, I read through your blueprint you know, I did not even buy your course necessarily but I just went to your free stuff and this blueprint in particular. I started my blog which started my online business which pretty much changed the entire course of my life in terms of what I do for a living. So I love hearing that to start with. So that is why the blueprint is the starting point. So everything we have talked about here it goes through setting up the blog, the blog sales funnel selling new products and service through blogging, content marketing all of that, great entry point. And then if you want to work more closely and have a more step-by-step guide, the blog mastermind 2.0, the course and obviously you know, definitely grab Jeremy’s bonus. I actually cannot think of much of a better tie-ins since I am essentially teaching the blog sales funnel combined it with your funnel formula you got a pretty awesome combination of funnel training which I think is really the -- not only the current hot format of marketing, it is just what works best you know, I think I leave Jeremy to give you the links wherever you are downloading this for those 2 things. Finding my work, it is really straightforward, Google my name, Yaro. It is a bit of strange first name I am trying to be like Oprah and Madonna (inaudible 64:31.0) you know 1 name fame. So Google Yaro and you will find me, Yaro. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah sounds good. And I do not have these links up yet but what I will do is if you want the -- Yaro, do you think we should have 2 separate links or maybe just 1 page with both of them? Yaro Starak: Well, I mean it depends what time are you giving this out because if you give out the blueprint before the course is on sale, they cannot buy for the bonus yet so -- Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, so we will go live during your prelaunch so everybody can follow that. Yaro Starak: Okay, so they should get the blueprint and the free one. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, yeah. So if you want that and again as usual all these links are going to be in the show notes. So if you are on your phone just kind of scroll down in the description and the links will be there. If you are coming to this from the email then you will go to the page and the show notes will be in there but go to Jeremyreeves.com/Yaro and that will like kind of -- you know that will essentially be my affiliate link that sends you to the blog profit blueprint and then if you end up buying the blog mastermind 2.0 from Yaro then just shoot me that receipt and I will send you also the funnel formula course so you kind of get like a 2-in-1 deal. Yaro Starak: Awesome. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, sounds good. And again, those will all be in the show notes. Before we hop off, is there anything else that you know that I missed, is there anything that you know, you would kind of feel bad if people did not know or you think we covered kind of the big points? Yaro Starak: You know there are so many things to this I would not want to overwhelm people. I know depending where are you coming from, there is a lot of moving parts to this whole process and that is why sometimes I think just going out there and saying okay I am going to be this kind of expert, I am going to setup a blog and I am going to build a list and get out there and start doing that process is the best learning experience you can have. So you know, if any of this is felt overwhelming or confusing, just break it down into small pieces of the puzzle with an emphasis on output, making something for the world though so you can actually get someone to consume your content and join your list and start having a relationship with you because that is what leads to the sales is the trust in the relationship. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Brilliant advise. Once again, if you are interested in learning more about this, the best way to do it is by getting Yaro’s the free 88-page blog profits blueprint and the link to get that is Jeremyreeves.com/Yaro and you know, again if you have any questions from me about all this you know, feel free to email me at support@jeremyreeves.com otherwise you can kind of you know, search for Yaro and he is doing the whole Oprah thing. Hey, you know, if they search for Yaro and click one of your links that will help you in Google because they like you know, that is one of the ranking factors (inaudible 67:24.1). Yaro Starak: I have rank number 1 for Yaro for the long time now, 10 years. Jeremy Reeves: That is awesome. Yes, I hope everybody you know, got a lot out of this I know I did and again, Jeremyreeves.com/Yaro that will be in the show notes, so just scroll down you know, wherever you are listening to this and then just click on that link and yeah, if you end up buying anything again, that will take you to the free thing. If you end up buying anything then I will get the commission for it and thank you for that by the way and then I will also send you the funnel formula as well. Alright. Yaro Starak: Awesome. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, thanks. Yaro Starak: Thank you Jeremy. Jeremy Reeves: I really appreciate it.

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  • 00:54:44

    Stephanie & Bryce

    · Waiting for Babies

    Stephanie and Bryce fell in love when they were just 19. Married by 21, they always knew they wanted to have children, but life kept getting in the way. By the time they finally decided to start trying 10 years later, things didn't go exactly as planned. From ovulation test kits to IVF treatments, to a miscarriage, they were private throughout their struggle - wanting to avoid the unintentionally hurtful comments and questions from family and friends. Here is their story.  Transcript Hi I'm Steven Mavros this is waiting for babies where we take a deeper look into the very human side of the world of infertility. Every episode we're going to walk along with a couple or an individual from the moment they first wanted to bring a child into their lives and find out what happens when the one thing we're biologically driven to do doesn't seem to be working and all the many roads they follow to get there. This is Steven again. So I'm an acupuncturist and I've been specializing in infertility for the last 15 years. Most of the people we're going to talk to in the beginning episodes will be ones I've worked with. For the first episode. I thought it would be great to bring in someone I'd never met before and Stephanie and Bryce were perfect for this. Their story has become so special to me because it's so common and one I hear every day and one that I think most people don't realize is common in this world of infertility. And I thought it would be a perfect way to start this conversation. Now normally alongside me you're going to hear my partner in crime and my office manager of Laura Mullin. But for this particular interview I was lucky enough to have a friend visiting me from Minneapolis named Kristen Blake. She's also a fertility acupuncturist. I'll let Stephanie and Bryce take it from here. My name's Bryce Nichols. And I'm Stephanie Nichols. SM: How old are you guys now? Thirty eight. We're the same age we were born seven days apart. I'm seven days older. We met in college we fell in love when we were 19 and we actually got married between our junior and senior years when you were 21 and well we were too young then to like have discussions about kids. We it was never out of the question like I mean it was obvious we both we wanted to have kids and we were married over 10 years before we started trying. Purposeful or was that just how life went. I don't think we planned to wait quite that long but it was just like grad school and then career stuff like my job made it feel like it was impossible to have kids. And so when we found they were like All right we're just going to do it. Well it doesn't work my job. Yeah. We've been right 10 years. And I think we'd also wanted to wait until we had a house. But then again but by then like we were in early thirties and we're like OK well so if we have a kid in a tiny one bedroom apartment was the 12th floor or something like that of an apartment building we're like what we're doing currently I am mostly full time stay at home mom although also like I sort of keep getting involved in things so one morning a week I volunteer escorting refugees to the medical appointments. I volunteer with babywearing international local chapter which teaches moms parents and other caregivers about different carrier types and how to use them safely and comfortably with their babies and toddlers. Also teach me something which now a very very tiny printing business. But when I'm not doing those things and being a stay at home mom I'm actually a costume designer for theater and dance. That's what I got my master's degree in my grad school. So I've worked with the computers from an early age. And I'm I'm now a software architect working at IBM in Austin. They do but I'm actually working out of wing Wow. So tell me about when you guys first started trying and what that was like. We took the goalie. And we don't need to measure timelines to match but basically three years before we actually managed to find ourselves with a pregnancy that was probably a keeper it was when we started training and I'd been on birth control like since I was in high school. Like well over half my life got off the pill and we were trying for over a year. Well over a year maybe like a few months before I finally went to see somebody. And at the age that we were the advices like somebody after six months. But you know I really worry about it. I think we we always have this concept because you don't know what's going to happen because she been on birth control for so long. And there are different stories about everybody gives different advice and yet you go off it and you get pregnant. And then the other story and you know one thing that I recall is we had pregnancy scares you know when I even know I never had times. During college only you know use acting and utterly unpredictable goals. I could go 60 days without a pill which I think turns out if you look if you look at the history if you asked her doctor that's probably like a factor at least that's a symptom of whatever the reason is that it was hard for us to go. But we don't know yet. We don't really know for sure but darn predictable periods like men. Yes she would miss one. She's on birth control but we know that something does not work. And so it's like what do we do. We're not ready. I think it's like the weird contrast between really not ready and you're like worried about it and then you're like ready and you're worried about oh why can't we actually do this do not call them scares the neighbors that this is like this should teach you pregnancy is just to be sure. Maybe you didn't see this movie. I remember when we sort of each I was probably we had to talk like Oh what what. You know we do what would we do. So maybe that's why it was like we talk about all this stuff. I don't really want to deal with it. See I we so we started trying and I tried like every Obviously Ishan predicter on the work. They saw some weird. Like oh there's one called the over Q A See you see and it has the parts or there's this little kind of like card deck of cards size computer monitor thingy and it has two things that plug in and one is a wand and one does maybe three quarters of an inch in diameter by a six to eight inches long in the other. They're both attached by wires and the other is like a spoon. Say that looks like a spoon. And so you wake up in the morning and before you've had any water you put this spoon and your tongue in it like looks at the patterns that your saliva are making which supposedly changes monthly depending on how close the woman is. She's saying you don't talk to me when you are about an election because one is tabulation and then the wind goes in the vagina and I forget how it even works. The base that sends these signals to the thing and so the two in combination are supposed to. And a guy. HEADLEE these previews ranging from like this thing is amazing. The only thing that worked for me because the thing is it advertised like it'll work even if your cycles are totally irregular and you know cause I can have a cycle anywhere from like 25 days to 60 days. But even that was $60. I forgot. It did nothing. It would be there. They were all hopeful. That was like that all the wackiest one and we did like the calendar charting and the cheap sticks that you just piled on and then the food blue easy relation monitor with the expensive sticks that you pee on and put all them in. And did any of them work for you. What do they show up you know they would. But then like I wouldn't get a period for 30 more days after. It sounds like very skeptical. You did you have to do that every day even after ambulation within a certain. Late late on the whatever. The 13 star monitor. Yeah. That was how much I was there when I actually even gave it away to somebody through the glass like before we even saw this. I was like I watched it you should watch it again. And I met this lady. She said she had a baby already and then been having trouble trying for her second. She had a toddler and I was like we had to meet in a public place. I was like I don't want somebody coming to my house. And she was so gracious. She's like I run about this and I had been very explicit in the crank was that I was like people love this but it totally didn't work for me. Maybe somebody out there can use it. I really can't in good conscience sell it even though I spent $360 on it because I don't know if it works. So anybody else wants to try it I'll meet you in this park. Was a great deal. Feel you to use all of these different products or was it more like anxiety producing to use them for her. No I would say it was the scientists. I do think it was at least it was something it was something we could do something we could try while we were waiting with this big question mark hovering in the air. And that was even before we started really thinking like how am i actually going to be able to get pregnant because you're really going have your regular cycles. No big deal. My mom got pregnant really easily multiple times. So did we. I don't think we were very lucky. Public about the fact that we really had this feeling we decided early on. I mean we did we told some friends we had friends who knew like OK we're ready we're in your family. I think it's pretty commonly certain family members certainly asking you. It's pretty early. Like once we started trying was when I started just saying when people ask when there is news we'll share it and try not to indicate that we are having trouble or that you are crying because they didn't ask. Do you feel like any of your friends or anyone in your peer group ever said the words were turning with multiple friends who had and we'd see. Sure sure. Yeah I'm thinking of my friend and he not open about it all. And I in retrospect I understand because you don't. It's just like ups and downs and you don't want to subject it ruin to all those the details and he told me more later when I actually actually after Yeah it's at some point he did like opened up and told me here and then I have a girlfriend who was very open. I mean they didn't they they didn't talk about it when they were trying to conceive but once they moved on to they site to move onto filch fertility treatments and eventually IVF she had a family mailing last and seeing her go through that once we started on this path. I was like we're not telling anybody like anything because anything you get all those questions and people mean well you know how's he going. Only in the news. And if there's new this you're going to say there's no there is no news or it's not good and it's so the video that we made to make the announcement basically told the entire story. It felt so safe to tell everything after the fact. Once I was in the second trimester we were pretty sure you had a keeper. And then people were like wow really you through all that and like we didn't know the see people have conversations with those kind of off of the ruler. I mean probably at home sorry my mom eventually we brought her into the loop. Blake partway through or first learn about Libya. So another thing that really kept it to ourselves. I'm so glad we did because it just adds a whole other level of pressure when well-meaning people are constantly asking. You have to think about your life worrying about how to communicate with everyone and you're ready for us to figure things out. Harper for those people don't know the right questions to ask because they've never been through it really don't know enough about it. Or do you think it was just so to deal with it you just want to talk about. Such a mix because you've got everybody from the people who who say well meaning things like well if it's meant to be at all or maybe it's just not God's will which is not a thing you say to do you know only or well meaning advice but you just need to relax going to the station and stop and then all the anecdotes. I have friends who they've been trying for years and then they just stop trying and they got there. I mean I'm sure you've in all these interviews heard or see you get the range from that to other people who aren't necessarily offering advice but just are really concerned about your well being. How are you doing. And but there's nothing he can do but be support. So yeah it was good to avoid the action so well me but well-intended comments on you know somebody like my father who. I'm no longer in contact with my father by my choice. And one of the many things in my life journey with my father that led to me making a decision was when it was around. We are trying for a few months. And my father who is an extremely extreme born again fundamentalist Christian we were in a Denny's and he was once again trying to preach to us and towards his story about his path with the Lord and he said the words I hope you never have children followed by if you don't intend to raise them with the relationship with Jesus. But it didn't matter. I mean if the qualifier was like I hope you don't have children if you intend to beat them. OK. But just I hope you don't have children coming. And he had no idea that we'd already been trying. And so I was it was and we were by the time we made the decision to finally just cut him out of my life for so many reasons I was so glad that I didn't have to share this difficult part of her life with him because I think the comments from him would have been worse than all the others. It would have been all about you know you need to pray more. God just doesn't want it. Yes he would have been no worse. And even if we hadn't personally told him even if he'd been telling the answer cousins the world would have gotten back. It's hard to avoid. So it was one more reason why it was good to keep this under wraps until there was good news to share. Or until we just found it would move us that we're not having children either way. There was is from lack of a better word judgment in terms of but even once you started for tumuli treatments did you feel like suddenly people were charging you for either doing that or needing that person. That's a good question. If we'd been public with it like my girlfriend was who had her mailing list that she kept up to date I can definitely see myself wanting to have the kind of explain and rationalize everything and try to like how this is OK we're not being selfish by like using this you know this medical technology and having our insurance company pay all these bills when there are all these children that you know we could adopt or are just accepting that we can't conceive naturally curly dies. I mean were I this new again. We are so lucky to. We've been so lucky to live in a place and the time that we do and to have access to the medical technology that we have access to and to have the insurance that I had when we were going through this. Thank you. Suda New Jersey public employees support is like our best. It's like now I know because I've heard from other friends and I've seen the statistics and that it's some of the best insurance to have if you're dealing with infertility because my my friend is I mean his wife got a job in New Jersey. And not was land that that person will be able to go through all the interventions to finally get there. So I mean a point in reverse we're so incredibly lucky that we had though we've we live where we do the time and place in the country that we do with medical technology and with insurance that we had because I would have been utterly beyond our means and yet it felt so like a spoiled luxury like we don't like. Why should you. Because you. Adding up the actual cost. If we had to pay for ourselves it's like what would we do if if we had to wake up our you know friends and family and like scrounge up that money what would we do we might there's do would be so challenging in a whole nother way and I mean again part the reason I wanted to make that video not just like announcing that you're pregnant but like here's everything you want to do to get pregnant. Because I knew we wanted I wanted to come out about it when when there was good news and it helped I think cancer a lot of questions that people would have. But also it wasn't just like you know technical the medical stuff here. So we went through like I mean it was very emotional people cried watching it. And so I think I have a feeling that if anybody would have had been judgment all about it seeing play just the emotional aspect of it might have quelled a little bit make sense. Yeah. Curious about the fact that you didn't talk to many other people about this process as you were going through it. Felt lonely. I felt like it brought it to the race together because they were in on it for how it felt in your relationship. Honestly like we're at odds in many ways all the way through. But we had both it definitely. I mean this I don't I can imagine any family going through this without there being like this to every everything that's annoying or inconvenient like gets to you. I came out with our interactions but I think at the same time it also brought us together. I do feel like we were like we both had a shared goal and we were sad and we were there we were but there were times that were you know we were together we were just both committed to that purpose. But as far as I know like that in a way those are the kind of in my mind is separate from our relationship wasn't for me. But in terms of loneliness and isolation I mean especially dealing this while still going to you know doing the long commute to work working long hours and the times what I would that I would get a phone call because you know the phone calls to tell you I mean when you're going through when when one is going to especially like the idea of process from the beginning with the drugs to the egg retrieval to be transferred to them like the test where you find that if you're pregnant and then the tests where they keep monitoring the HEG to see if it's rising. And like every single one of those phone calls especially as it gets more tricky and the process is just the most trying to take these phone calls at my desk in the costume studio Brown University when I have works that is students and practicum students working. And then you know the the one that I got after. So we are going in all these details. But our first round of IVF I got pregnant and it was awesome. But the HEG levels weren't rising properly and eventually they dropped in and we knew what I got was going to be in that phone call that's when Dr. kown or actual doctor called and said if one of the nurses and I knew and I had the lady from the laundry room in the cast seems to be OK is to go somewhere to do it first and then I. I had students working and I just told them I can sign cutting some bad news. And I was like send them home early. And I went outside a little alcove to like finish the conversation don't want privacy and then like the whole bus ride home I was sobbing bitterly trying to quiet the sobs. And yet that was like that was I think one of the hardest parts of that in terms of loneliness and isolation was being determined to keep it to ourselves but dealing with it. What do you remember what like what did you do that day. You guys both we were really together when you get a margarita waiting for me when I got home in the little glass that we had bought we'd gone to our army which is to do the complicated procedures eggbeater one embryo transfer you to go to the King of Prussia location that so wonderfully and there's a pier one imports and it would appear the produce gift cards after one. See this is crazy. I've got the dotted cut glass and I was like this is going to be used either. When like I need a drink when I'm not pregnant or don't believe my first or after we have a baby and then came home and made me a margarita and we were treated like that. Did you end up drink that after big. I did many drinks the. Turn remember you and eventually told me that's what I told my mom when we were well it was somewhere it might have been like around the time of the first egg retrieval of first embryo transfer. This there really is. I wanted somebody to know that I had somebody to grieve with me and I was all like when I told my mom I call my mom and I told her everything we've been through and she was like oh my gosh I can't believe like you've been doing this. And then I got to tell her I was pregnant and for all the updates are really next you know couple of weeks that passed between when I was pregnant and when we knew it was going to lose it. And then when I actually did lose it and it was so such a relief to have somebody and close to I wasn't always close to my mom but now I family have somebody besides praise who grieve with me was I was really glad that I made that decision to finally we her. I mean do you want to tell others the little story about when you actually hurt. Like you have come and help them I think that's I think that speaks a lot to your question. Yeah how we deal with that. I mean that was basically after being pregnant for the first time. All right. Well one thing and again this might be TMI but once it was basically a miscarriage a very early miscarriage we're lucky. And I tell you I'm like we're lucky that it happened early rather than like later on. And I know women who've been through you know second trimester losses were or even you know my my best friend her. Her twins were delivered prematurely at 26 weeks and ultimately both passed away. And so we're incredibly lucky in a way even though it hurts so much. And I felt like like I was like dying inside like I felt so broken before kind of like that happened early. And I'm rambling. But once the mist the bleeding started you look in the toilet and actually I was able there was a sac that came out. It was distinctly Issaq. I hope this isn't TMI. I was like. I was sick. So all that happened at work in the back. I ran back to the costume shop and food my kitchen drawer until I could because I tried to get something passed and I dialed the second and put it in there and I put it in the fridge and I took it home and put it in a freezer and because I couldn't just it was even though I knew it was like my microscopic maybe at most a quarter of an inch long baby that was my baby at home. And I I ordered. I wanted to do something because even though I'm not a religious person and all I really value the healing power of ritual and tradition. And so I wanted to do something to memorialize this baby. And so they ordered peach tree peach tree which you can see actually at the window now it's all it's all sad and wintery but that's maybe a peach tree and it came and I named her Emma because even if there's no way to have known this baby's gender it was I thought it was a girl and I had been a girl named that I'd liked for many years but knew that I wouldn't use it if it got too common. I was like you can use it for my dead baby. So when we transplanted into a big pot she's now buried I'd put the sack in tissue paper like thin flimsy tissue paper that would dissolve quickly and we wrote notes to the baby which we nicknamed the bubble because the blastocyst thought of it. It looks like a bubble so don't you. My mom wrote a note in Washington that we had not sent it all ceremony on a tarp pier in the living room transported her to the big party. So she's out there. Tiny sacrebleu biodegraded and it was it was helpful to watch. And this happened in the spring this happened in March a couple of years ago in Salem. It gave me something to talk to I would go out there and talk to him. Even though again I don't believe in a soul or anything like that it just gave me something inside that intact. And I remember when I started this. So eventually Mr. think and I'm out of here. The morning before we go for the egg extraction I not there and attacked and I told heart broken into and then eventually when we went for the transfer I went up there and I talked from it all don't want to. And then the that we went to the hospital to Thomas Jefferson for my labor induction resemble to be born. And when I told her that when it came back it was going to be our little brother. So that's been a really good thing to have anything. And when pre-cap Marcelo de ashes I haven't buried them yet but Marcelo's ashes are going to go with them. It's just like the burial over of the baby. There's an amazing article the times for just talking about the Japanese. These guardians with small statues and you'll go to the gardens and it's a statue after statue. It's just the miscarriage ritual. And we don't have that kind of ritual. We don't have anything. And most of the time I don't even talk about it. So true. It's called Superpole and then in the article that couple that was talking about how they and they've seen it when they were in Japan and they ended up going and buying one of these and putting it in their garden here and us and sheeplike it in code for this statue and they were both like periodically go out and talk to the statue and kind of tend to it and take care of it as they were going through you know their fertility process and you know grieving the miscarriage that they had and maybe they could try to figure out when do we stop taking care of this. You were like maybe we never said it before. I and I also buried as handlers umbilical cords for that little tiny part of him this is not how we do the same with when this baby when we conducted his was awful probably buried in the soil too. It's kind of more me but it gives me something that fills a need for fills in need and everybody fine. You know I think if somebody can find a way to fulfill a need then just do it even if it's weird. Did you both hurt people and when the miscarriage was that you it I think my focus was on this terror will you be doing like you know you wrote on tissue paper or something. So let me see. And he looked visibly angry. You know when you read some patients and you need them about it that's the first time they hear that their mom had a miscarriage just by thinking about it. Did I tell you my grandma told me this which is my grandmother my mom's mom. She had two daughters and my mom's all the and basically it was an intro I guess last year she told me like wow we would have had more kids. It didn't work like I had no clue about that. What is it. I don't even know why. Oh like everyone else in my family knows she might have chosen that moment to just say something about it because she didn't want to make anyone feel like you know it's amazing what she like the way she can be that really is basically you're her husband we told her like our two daughters are wonderful. They're not for me you need. We need to stop trying to do this those pretty. Say that she had a miscarriage and never you know just because I was talking about it she mentioned why in the course of this gets me and now it's a very it's amazing. I don't I don't even know who knows. Like she just told me like one moment. I've never heard it before. No clue. We took a break at this point and I asked Stephanie embraced her put everything they told us so far in context. So I asked them for a timeline and this is what they had to say when we really started. We got off birth control pills in November 2011 sort of trying with driving a mutation in January 2012. In March 2013 and we started taking or taking Clomid which is the lowest level intervention just to regulate my ambulation which actually that all of a sudden my periods were like 30 something to actually make plans. And also we can't really predict or test. But even then even with the regular cycle. So January 2014 which was two years after we started training with him and Dr. Coulon biased that we just moved straight ahead IVF and I was like really because he'd gone over and we'd read about all that. There's so many things between clomid and yes I see why and I'm sure you've heard about was Brace's numbers or in terms of spunk out. Super sperm like the highest highest scores for motility and all and Captain other stuff and I did all my tests I've gone through there were they couldn't be so recently diagnosed with unexplained infertility. When we went on the Clement. And so since we've been trying come in for Doctor cancer do it for six months and come back to me and we did it for like nine months. We came back to him. And so he said why don't we just move straight time yeah basically because it's the gold standard most likely to work. And by then we were already I was 35 34 35. Not that that's all any means for conceiving but it sort of you know there's a point where statistically the average woman's eggs start to degrade more quickly and easily might as we'll just do it because your insurance will cover it. Right. OK. So just a couple weeks later we started the drugs and on February 12th of 2014 which I think is Darwyn I remember. I think it was Darwyn day and I was like This is so perfect to have a science baby that's needed the egg retrieval and brazening his contribution. And then five days later we transferred. We had one blastocyst embryo transferred and a couple weeks later I was pregnant for the first time. So from the start from when we started trying to when I was pregnant for the first time basically I'd been a little over two years which again we're so lucky because people go through this for five seven eight ten years and it only took us three years from when we started trying to when we had a child we went to when I was like in a spectrum started really great B.B. King. So anyhow see I mean you by the end of February that I was pregnant the miscarriage happened on March 11th 2014. And then oh another little bump in there that we haven't even mentioned. One thing that had come up during our first IVF cycle was as Dr. küng doing all the monitoring noticed that flopping Tupas was becoming more and more swollen. And I had a condition called Driesell pings which turned for a spoonful of pintu and he said you know we don't know this. We don't know if this has been a cause of your infertility previously. That's something that should before but before we move forward with anything by this thing to do was just cut it out because it's not help it's not really helping us. So I actually also had surgery in March. Like it was the timeline was kind of crazy because he had only he had an opening. And so like why were we going to have the miscarriage I was having Skopec surgery and that sucked way more than I thought it when it was really difficult. And that was actually enters our relationship. That was I think one of the hardest points was because I didn't just need emotionally I needed him physically to be my rock and I like that were there were definitely many fights over you know basically like I need you to do this for me because I can't do it in the colorful and friction ways. Funny how we still had one frozen embryo but Dr. Cowen advised that rather than trying to transfer that one let's wow I'm still you know younger biologically. Let's do another full cycle of IVF so fresh right now retrieval and all that he was Can he change the drug protocol. It was actually awesome because of the shorter timeline determines how long it was on the drugs and basically changed it with the goal of being able to get a little bit more eggs. I had a good number last the first time. But the problem is they all develop at different rates. So even though it's 17 eggs that were taken out the first time which is a stellar number. Only two were developed enough that they became good embryos. So he changed the drugs. And so when we did our second IVF retrieval on April 27th of 2014 retrieve 23 eggs which is like wow. And overall they were much more developed for quality. And five days later when. Which is when they do transfer and or freezing. I had 12 good embryos. So we have this treasure trove. It's crazy. But as a side effect that sometimes happens when the ovaries are having this awesome response which is ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome. We heard about it from the people you interviewed. And fortunately Dr. Caplan is very careful about such things. And basically if if the woman doesn't get pregnant it will resolve itself. But if the woman gets pregnant it gets much much much worse. And so the thing to do is not try to get pregnant all the embryos were frozen and we waited about two months before our town decided that I was ready to start this or start my body and the drugs that are essentially like the second half of the IVF cycle to get ready for a frozen transfer place because that's pretty quick. It sounds like after them really those extra couple months were hopeful. I just need more time. Yeah. The two months between when we stopped for very high positions and it was filled with going through so much and over these those two months we went on vacation and went on a cruise for a week and it was like our awesomeness freakishly verse. I mean I was I'm I was like on the drugs already so I had these estrogen patches on my belly. That kind of got covered by my kidney and I was still having some shots but it was like kind of this is like are like big rollick either. This is our last vacation that we can take for a long time or we're going to be like having a new something in between the disappointment. CM The cruises in June and so July 1 July 7th was when they defrosted and transferred one embryo which became an authoritarian timeline from the time that we started until you were pregnant it was a little over two. It was like two and three more years. We had been through the work was wasn't over. Now because when I knew I had to deal with Justin and I was working with I couldn't believe that it puts it be forgiven for me this is not to say we have to be on this. There's a schedule. Yes it was. And like honestly he was like it was I didn't know like you're not allowed to have sex for like what we talked about this is something we didn't have yet. We were actually weren't allowed to have sex fairly too much for two months or something. But of course we were also just so they worked so hard to make this happen you're terrified. And when I was technically allowed to have sex you really free to like it with my hands I think three times after pregnancy. It's just after all the work like for fraid you know we don't always have to turn over in the end give me an injection a couple of men it was no fun at all. Saturday morning at 9:00 Eastern in Jacksonville near Eden. And of course you're thinking like oh if we do this wrong or mess like this one or mess it up then we might have killed Baby screwed up totally. You're just like yeah yeah. We're like oh we're like an hour every hour two weeks from when we're supposed to do. So in retrospect you know probably didn't and probably didn't think it'll be good to you. And it's just like what I say is like I don't really want to have to step every day. Sometimes I did them myself like if I was working late I would go. She had to and I sort of like the first time you had to do it for me. I'm like coaching here. You know I've got my MBA like I've got my kids but I kind of turn toward them know a little higher and I'm like coaching him through it. He's like freaking out and I'm like. Like it was harder on me. And the times that I had to do it myself it was not good. But I was like a it's hard. And I might not be it's the principle of thing you are going to be involved in the fact that I was doing it but I just I was like oh my god i missed missed the mark. Nerve. You'll be there. There were a couple of times. So you drank progesterone in oil it's really thick and there are holes. There's the needle that one uses to dried up which is really fat. And you untwist that and you put on another needle which is still fat but not quite as fat. And there were two occasions when he forgot to switch meat and he did it with a big fat one time you were in Paxi Kiran and I pretty much know I was like you will not have anything to drink before you give me my shot. I don't know if you want to talk about this but before we got to get loose with this pregnancy. We assumed we would need intervention preemptively went in and split it. Meaning we were planning that this winter actually right around now January February that we would do another frozen embryo transferred to try to conceive a second child aiming for them to be. I know ideally three years apart at most but we are we'd start at that time all the time then when they would be two and a half years apart knowing that you know the odds of winning the lottery gain are less and less likely that we would get pregnant and unlikely that we would get pregnant. So really all start trying in January February so we can do another one in like March or April and another one you know late spring if we need to because we can afford to because we have and I actually have 12 or 13 frozen embryos can we still have the one from previously. So. So he explained to us what the protocol would be and it was already completely different. Yes that's those my life is already changed. Yeah. It was sort of estrogen patches and it was just the pills I think estrogen pills something. I just remember that it was hilarious and I think this has changed and this is change we don't see this anymore and think wow this is an industry that moves very quickly. I feel like there's sort of you do end up doing so. So yeah I am. Twenty eight weeks pregnant. I actually just started third trimester two days ago. And we. So we saw Dr. Caplan I think it was like in May or June and we discovered it and I want to say late July or early August despite the fact that I had never conceived naturally we'd had to go through all the stuff to make $10. I'm down to one fallopian tube which even if you had no other problems if you only have one fallopian tube automatically your chances of conception are kind. We hadn't been having sex at all. And I was pregnant. So we're like the unicorns. And it was really hard to believe at first it was her doing for a long time actually. How been kids you know we identify as people who we've been through it all we've been through the fertility stuff we're going to do IVF like a champ. But this and got all these frozen embryos that were that you know we can keep trying with the others. We've got lots of chances even if the first and second one don't work. So there were there were so many feelings. Obviously you know there's First there's the like wow this is so amazing. I think if this baby sticks we don't have to go through all that. Bryce doesn't have to go through the terrible anxiety of giving me those progesterone shots. You know we don't have to go through all of this. You don't have to have all those doctors appointments. But also I mean and especially with dealing with major like ethical guilt because we have these frozen embryos and they will not go to waste even if we don't use them when we decide that you know when hopefully we have the second baby we might give it another year or two. Keeping them in frozen storage but eventually we will donate them so that they can be tried by couples or parent you know hopeful parents who aren't able to make their own healthy embryos and their healthy embryo. So anyhow with IVF there was like an ultrasound at like five five weeks and something and in six weeks and something in seven weeks that something and there was even one to eight weeks and something before that and I switched over to senior regular OPG way. And there's just that Blake that safety net of having your fertility doctor monitor you constantly. And so to go to a regular doctor pianistic can be told you're pregnant and then you know like we'll see you in for three or four weeks for the deeding inviolability ultrasound. You're going to do HEG blood test to make sure the ETG is writing properly. They're like we don't we don't do that normal pregnancy. So it's funny. We're so we're so lucky that it's worked out this. How did you find out about this pregnancy was it through blood work or did you live in a house. So that's a very good question. I had started having strange insomnia and it was only like the insomnia that I'd had early in my pregnancy would. I was like This is weird I'm having to I'm getting up having to pee like every hour and a half to two hours. I have a bladder infection but also like I can't go back to sleep during P.E. and I think this is exactly what it was like at the beginning of Zindler of the tiny tiny dancer pregnancy was similar. And so I thought process like I only do a pregnancy test just to rule out the possibility. You know so that I know I can keep having my nightly cocktail or beer or wine. And then you're like OK just kind of like your life. So I did you know put the test on the toilet. I remember when I woke up and I got up in the morning after multiple wakings and I sat there what you're supposed to like leave it sitting for like five or 10 minutes and come back to I just sat there like I'm sitting on the toilet seat watching it on the counter as it slowly turned to sign was like no this is not possible. So I brought it into him and stabbed him awake. And he actually was like Congratulations. Or good job. But like I think I did one more the next day with kids that had been in the cupboard since before Zehnder was conceived and I was like just take it over. So yeah we did and I did another one the next day with a fresh pack and same result. So yeah I made a point when when we did finally announce early in the second trimester when I was around I think like 14 15 16 weeks I wrote up a FAQ and a fake because I was like people are going to have so many questions and obviously the first question in the Q&A was did you have to go through IVF again. And so I explained no no explain what our plan was for the frozen embryos and how I talked briefly about how it had some like kind of ethical guilt feelings but that a baby is a baby and we're grateful no matter how this baby was conceived. And then last question was Is there anything else you would like people to know. Yes. Actually there is. It is our sincere hope that people will not use us as an example or when trying to care to comfort friends who are dealing with infertility. We want to be very clear that we are the unicorn's. This does not you know this happens there's anecdotal evidence that you can have to go through all sorts of interventions to get pregnant and then your and then you just get pregnant again easily for your second child. But like you know basically it was I politely said please don't go with if you know somebody who's struggling with infertility. Please don't say like oh we have these friends who went through all that in their second career. They just relaxed. They weren't even thinking about it and they got pregnant without even really trying because we know like we're we're just we we hit the lottery. That's all it comes down to. You're prepared to have to go through. And we've hit the lottery in so many ways along this entire path. Like having you know amazing insurance that made this possible because we couldn't pass. Of that my body just responded well to the drugs. Having so many becoming such a great doctor so many eggs so many embryos. And also I did get pregnant both times even though I asked the first one. And nullus Yeah we know like we know to not take this for granted at all. Thank you guys for this amazing awesome month. Talk about like we're eating like we know where the lucky ones come out the other side with our marriage intact as a tactic. Literacy and with on the way. And frozen embryos. We still have the option of using if it ever comes to that it's it's worked out beautifully that I could leave it up and be a stay at home mom that we already have a house and that the house is see more there's no more work that needs to be done to kids there's law. It To Be Like. So fucking lucky. Thanks to Stephanie and Bryce Nichols for sharing their story. If you'd like to see the video that Stephanie was talking about a link to her it is on our site waiting for babies dotcom. Thanks to Kristin blade for joining me for this one in between med school interviews music for this episode by quiet times for tiny robots. If you like what you hear. Please by all means share it with your fertility community via social media or on your message boards and read us on iTunes. If you like what we're doing and want to help us keep doing it. Please go to our Web site at waiting for babies dot com and click donate. We take a lot of time away from treating patients to make the show happen but we love it. Want to do more and want to keep this conversation going so any help goes a long way. This is Steven Mavros. See you next time.  This is the video Stephanie and Bryce made:    This audio features the song "Lullaby for a Broken Circuit" by Quiet Music for Tiny Robots, available under a Creative Commons Attribution license. 

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  • 00:51:58

    episode 2 - philip coxall

    · landscape conversations

    Gabion wall at Ballast Point Park. Image: McGregor Coxall Subscribe via iTunes podcast episodes RSSToday’s guest on Landscape Conversations is the Sydney based Landscape Architect, Philip Coxall from the firm McGregor Coxall. Philip has more than 20 years experience working on projects in England, Asia and Australia. These range from broad scale master planning to new parks and gardens. The work has been widely published and received numerous awards. Examples of Philip’s work include BP Waverton Park, Ballast Point Park and Lizard Log at Wester Sydney Parklands.The ConversationAnton: Were you outdoors much as a kid?Philip: No I wasn’t outdoors much, I was a city kid. And I remember that one plant that made an impression was at Auburn school was this Jacaranda tree that was in flower and it interested me that it flowered every now and then. But other than that Auburn at that time was very bitumen and concrete. I think I said at Barcelona at 16 my dad and I concreted the backyard, that’s what we did.Anton: A spatial experience.Philip: Yeah it is a spatial, but we did it for a pragmatic reason because we didn’t want to mow the lawn and it made a great cricket pitch.Anton: That’s what interests me, these different conceptions of what landscape could be. You hear people talk about beauty in the landscape and that it's a given but then you see someone like -Anton: The artist who represented Australia at the Venice Biennale a few years ago, Shaun Gladwell.Anton: His thing is all about bicycles and cars and motorbikes, he did that series in the outback riding a motorbike.Philip: Oh yes I know that one.Anton: He also did a movie or video where he's riding a bicycle or someone is riding a bicycle across the headland at Clovelly beach on all the sandstone boulders. So he sees that sandstone headland as an opportunity to do some skillful riding whereas somebody else would see it as a romantic Sydney landscape and a whole bunch of architects would see it as touching the earth lightly and this amazing thing.Philip: It's an interesting point isn't it.Anton: So that’s what interests me is how different people who work in the landscape have formed their ideas about what a landscape should be and to what extent our education - if you didn’t have a huge conception of landscape early, well obviously everybody does but the idea of landscape as something out there with some agency is formed at some point. Whether you understand it as something that’s about property or whether you understand it as something about conservation or about ecology or a space you need to have flat to play cricket, everybody has got a landscape in their head.Philip: It's a really interesting thing isn't it. I don’t even know how I got into it, in a lot of ways - when I first finished school I went and studied industrial design and worked for a local firm called Malleys. Malleys Whirlpool were manufacturing fridges and washing machines and stuff like that. I was wanting to design the washing machines and I thought there was something there. But then after I came back after a year, I was doing an apprenticeship at TAFE to study this and I came back from being on the beach because that’s the Christmas holiday we had, and there were these guys across the road, that we had a window looking out over, and this is in Auburn, and they'd built an apartment complex and these guys were building a garden.  You know the old rocks and they put Nandina, Nana, with the Cordyline popping out of it and all that. And I just looked at it and I went - and they're in their shorts and suntanned, they're out there doing something and they're building gardens, that can't be half bad. And I went home and I asked mum that night, I said I saw these guys doing this I wouldn’t mind doing that actually. And we had a friend who was doing landscape garden building and so she put me in contact with him and I had a chat and he told me about Ryde school and horticulture. And I didn’t know a bloody plant and all of a sudden two weeks later I'm sitting in a class with the blokes in the boots and the shorts and the t-shirts you know dirty as all shit because they'd come from a day at work doing TAFE. Then one day I'm flipping through the library at Ryde and I came across the sand gardens of Ryoan-ji in Japan. The Japanese landscape book I was looking at had all the beautiful little gardens of Japan and then all of a sudden that sand garden came up. And I looked and I thought what a load of shit, what is this crap. But I loved all the other gardens. And then after I’d finished three years, probably right at the very end of my course I was in the same library looking for the same book for some strange reason, turned over and saw this garden and it was like somebody had hit me in the heart.Anton: The same one again?Philip: The same one again, but I just went oh my God that is just stunning.Anton: It's amazing isn't it? 龍安寺 [Ryōan-ji] Kyoto. Image: Cquest Philip: What happened!Anton: I wonder.Philip: What happened! Is it all that Australian thing that you're brought up in the suburbs you don’t appreciate beauty or you don't have that physical understanding of beauty or whatever and then at some process it matured and I was ready to appreciate it the next time after that. I just had to go to Japan, I had to travel there to see this. But how does that happen! How about for you?Anton: So that’s still a long way from landscape design isn't it?Philip: It is.Anton: In a way garden design is part of it.Philip: It's the starting point to understand space. And I suppose in a way to understand Ryoan-ji is to understand the wider spatial arrangement of landscape and using the imagination to take you places and those kinds of things.Anton: The Spanish sculptor Chillida he talks about learning three dimensionality through being a goalkeeper in a football team at quite a high level, that’s where he developed this sense of the 3D of the space because he had to guard the goal.Philip: Anton, that is gorgeous, I can use that can't I?Anton: You can use that it's not mine.Anton: So on that how was Canberra did that nurture the - what did they see landscape as being at that time?Philip: I can tell you that when I went to Canberra I had been working building gardens and working in nurseries but I was desperate to get out. I had my own business and I did my back in like just did my back in. I was married and there was no future there so I had to take it to the next level. The first time I ever came across landscape architecture was when I was at Warriewood sewerage treatment plant doing planting with tube stock, you know the old bore hole machines, augers, but this is a bloody big machine blasting out in 40 degree heat and we’re just up and down putting the plants in the ground. And then up drives this guy in a Celica car, I still remember it, gets out, it's air-conditioned, he's got a shirt and shorts and looks the bit. We’re all dirty, filthy, sweating like pigs. He gets out the plan, points a bit, checks and walks and gets back in the car. I said landscape architect okay. Went in and that was -Anton: That's me.Philip: But it took me probably seven, eight years before I actually decided to do it but it was always sitting in there. And when I get to Canberra I had read Glen Wilson’s designing with Australian native plants, I don’t know if you know that  book.  And Glen was one of the first people to actually focus on using Australian natives.  And he came up with these great ideas about putting three tube stocks in a hole so they get this twist - just all this kind of crap, I never even thought like this.  So I was interested in that kind of thing already.  And then of course - you didn’t study in Canberra?Anton: No.Philip: But Canberra really they do take you out to the bush and it's part of the environment that you grow up in terms of education and so I responded to that.  But did it have focus in terms of that, I don’t think so.Anton: It strikes me that there's the educational spectrum that ranges across agricultural forestry ecology to one end and then much more architecture and visual arts to the other.  I remember Craig Burton said in an essay, he denies this now but I'm sure he did, the essay was  ‘Is landscape architecture?’Philip: There's two great ones right there; the goalkeeper and that one that’s excellent.Anton: It just interests me to what extent - and do you think you've retained much of that formation from Canberra or do you think you’ve -Philip: If I got anything out of Canberra, there was two things; one that we studied with the architects and the interior designers and you know they set that system up that they were all kind of integrated.  And that understanding of architecture I think was really important in the sense of design across those realms being not isolated but potentially part of the whole.  And the other thing of course was we had James Weirick and James - did you get tutored by James?Anton: No I didn’t, he came after I'd left at UNSW.Philip: You know, sometimes people can respond to people like him and sometimes you can't.  But one of his greatest crits to me, you know how you're waiting around for the crit and you’ve got your stuff drawn and you're waiting as the guy floats around and you get five minutes.  And James finally came up to me right at the very end, I’d been dragging over it, and his summation was - one of the best things I ever got out of him, I was doing a design of a kind of national park type walkway with carpark type strategy but there was an information centre.  And I’d drawn the information centre like ye olde worlde, verandah, Australia vernacular.  He walks up and he goes, “If I see another building like that I'm going to puke.”  And he walked off.  And it was like - it was a really crystal moment because it made me realise that we’re not only looking at beautiful little curvy paths in the carpark but looking at everything and that we have to challenge everything.  I went away from that, I got so much out of just that one little thing.  But maybe I respond to that kind of criticism.  But James was a great influence.Anton: And then you went to Hong Kong after that didn’t you?Philip: Yeah.Anton: So that must have changed things, what was the agenda for landscape in Hong Kong?Philip: Well before I went to Hong Kong I went to England and I was there for four years.  In England it was just dead, basically they were doing visual assessments and any design that would come in the door they'd run a million miles.  And I was like “I'll take it, I'll take it.”  I remember I was working at one of the big practices, and I forget his name, anyway they walked down Friday afternoon saying we just got this new design project does anybody want to work it over the weekend.  And they all buried their heads and I'm like, “Me, me, me”.  I'd just arrived two days ago, I just wanted to do it.  So England was just a grounding in nuts and bolts.  And then to go to Hong Kong was another world all together.  Have you spent time in Hong Kong?Anton: No, but passed through.Philip: Hong Kong at the time that I was there was an incredible period because it was just before the handover so they were doing all that work to spend all the coffers that the British had acquired before they handed it over to the Chinese so they didn’t have to give them any money.  So they built the airport, they built the rail and they built all the new towns.  So basically here I am tossed in to doing all that.Anton: Was it mainly that urban scale?Philip: Yeah, huge.  And I remember the first time I sat down after joining them and we’re sitting at a long table and the guy’s briefing everybody on this monster housing development project that we've got to do and all the rest of it.  And I went to the guys, “Wow!”.  The guys they were like this one must be pretty bloody good, they all stopped and looked at me.  So I had to learn pretty bloody quickly.  And then I worked on the airport, I mean huge scale stuff.  But the beauty of Hong Kong, there was no real design philosophy but what it did represent was an opportunity to explore design, get it built, see how you fucked up and do it again and again and again and again.  Well you know what it's like, you learn from building.  But I was drawing, they were taking it off the drawing board and physically building it the next day kind of thing, just incredible and I learnt so much.  But at that time it's weird I don’t know how I got to but egotistical I wanted to be a look at me designer, I wanted to do stuff that people went wow check it out, and there was Martha Schwartz at the time, Peter Walker and that was kind of like -Anton: That was the stuff?Philip: Yeah.  And then I thought I want to be a punk landscape architect, I want to walk into where they kind of go this is not a garden but it's something and I don’t know what it is, and it was crazy shit.  And because it was engineering run, Hong Kong, they had to have a layer of landscape but essentially it's engineering run.  So they didn’t give a shit and all the money was in engineering and it was all about - so they didn’t challenge me anything.Anton: Did you challenge them, were you able to get into the engineering?Philip: A little bit on the roadways, a little bit on the underpasses and the connectivity.  When we worked on the airport like I wanted to do red runways, red and pink and blue runways. Hong Kong International Airport. Image: Wylkie Chan Anton: You’ve arrived in Hong Kong.Philip: But the beauty was that I saw the work, I would go out after thinking this is going to blow peoples’ minds and look at it see it and just go “this is shit”.  And then I started to realise that simplicity, maybe classical elegance maybe that’s not how I work now but a sense of strong form, shapes and those kind of things that are not timeless necessarily but they're not a vogue or that kind of thing; that’s what I see in my head anyway.Anton: How did it work there, the culture, the office culture and the attitude towards the landscape?Philip: Yeah.  But it was great because nobody really interrogated it, the big game was the piece of infrastructure.  I worked on the whole airport right and seriously nobody challenged me except for the pink and red runways.  I’d just go for it, imagine whatever you want to I had a go at it.  And then all the train stations all the way along, all the new towns all the way along, you're out there just - and then of course work would come across from China because China was opening up.  So Friday afternoon they wanted a marina designed for Zhangzhou or wherever, and they needed it by Tuesday, so you'd have to work fast.Anton: Given that you're so involved now or you seem to be heavily involved in construction - did that work like that there or there just wasn’t time you had to - it would be built before you could wake up the next day.Philip: I did go out and do a little bit of construction but I wasn’t particularly good at it I must admit but I did learn it, as I went through the paces.  But I don't do the construction so much anymore but when I have a precious project you take it from start to finish, everything relies on that end product for me.Anton: How was that then bringing that experience back to Australia?Philip: When I left Hong Kong after the seven years I decided I was going to give up and get a mowing run.Anton: Say that?Philip: Mowing.Anton: With a bad back?Philip: Oh no mowing was okay.  And I thought I don’t want to do the thinking anymore, I don’t want to do any of that; I just lost it all, that old belief.  And so I did, I set up a mowing business and just got the ute, drove around and mowed the lawns for two years.  And then Adrian called me up one day and said - funnily enough the competition I went in was the one that you won for Mount Penang Gardens.  And he called me up and he said do you want to have a go at this design competition and after two years it was kind of the right thing to do.Anton: Did you think you brought that Hong Kong landscape mindset or had you always had the different view in the back pocket?Philip: What I brought was all the fuck ups that I’d made I’d learnt from I think.  Others could argue with me on that.  But also because of my European connection through my wife, like for example, BP I was always fascinated when I was around Germany, where they’d used raw gal material and it was simple and raw, and with the elements that they had it seemed to work.  And so that kind of understanding of material definitely.  And I was always fascinated with materials, like for example in Hong Kong you get the material wrong and it will be destroyed so quickly because of usage, because of the weather and the climate there.  Anton: Looking at Ballast Point that level of detail, that’s quite beautiful, obviously could be traced back to your industrial design past couldn't it?Philip: It could be.  You don't know the little bits and pieces but I do know that I've always been fascinated with the idea of something can be used for something else - like for example, I took a train out to a site visit out past Green Square one day, and I got off at the wrong train station. When I got off, there was nothing there, they were starting the development, but they had gabion walls that the builder had built as a temporary measure, and they'd trucked in all the broken concrete from a wall that they'd demolished.  And I got off that train station and I looked at that and I just went wow that’s actually quite interesting, I put that in my head. And then when Ballast came around it was always about the graffiti and trying to minimise graffiti on the walls and then the idea of those buildings being knocked down and then being chucked away how could that all - so bits and pieces coming together and then all of a sudden it kind of goes maybe that’s the idea.  What's the brain doing, how does it put bits and pieces together, I have no idea?Anton: Do you think the practice has a particular ethos about what landscape is?  Philip: I have a belief that - it started at university, it was a lovely little thing on one of the columns at university and it said ‘man is part of nature too’ and I thought about that quite a lot what it meant.  And I came from Auburn, Silverwater you know the oil refinery plant and all the stink and the lights, which I lived right next to so I knew it all the time.  And I was kind of fascinated with the idea that if we are part of nature, we can look at a beaver build a dam or we can look at a mole or we can look at insects, termite nests whatever, amazed at what they’ve done there.  So I think the same about us, I can't look at anything that we've built and say it's not natural.  And that challenge of it has to be natural because we’re part of it and we built it.  We mightn’t like it, we mightn’t think it's beautiful and it's a change in what we perceive as nature.  So for me that whole concept Adrian and I have been talking about kind of generated from this idea of the city being an organism.  How much does that inform our thinking I think in the sense of things in things out, it's an organism so how do you respond to those things.  So if you talk about reusing material, reusing water, reusing whatever; it's a system and how can you work that into the system that you're dealing with, so maybe to that level it is.  Anton: Just on that industrial, you say that and you mention growing up there but to what extent that’s also - you're known for Ballast Point and BP to industrial sites it's interesting that there is that recurring.Philip: I think for sure, I think that - I was thinking about it the other day, you know like at BP the chain link fence.  Story telling, I like story telling and there's little things in everything that I do that’s trying to tell a story about who you are in the process.  So the chain link fence was when I was a little kid went down to the cricket nets in the park that was the most barren landscape that I've ever been to, you know those kind of parks.  And I wanted to take that experience, that chain link fence that represented so much of my early life, and I know it's kind of industrial and all this and kind of replay it and try to find - I don’t think we achieved it but try to find another way of representing it and saying ooh actually it doesn’t look too bad, you know that kind of twisty connotation.  And I think the same with Ballast, all the workers had put pieces in the wall, my whole family has got pieces in the wall.   Former BP Site Park. Image: McGregor Coxall Anton: Do you think landscaping is about telling a story?Philip: Absolutely.Anton: Not that’s it about one thing only...Philip: No, but I think it is.  For me my method of understanding it and working it is I have to have a story in my head that I'm trying to communicate.  And once I've got that story I can then roll with it, I can answer everything for that storyline.  That’s fundamental, and if I can't get my hook into that story I get a bit lost.  Because what's the decision making process that we go through.  When you start your process you're trying to evoke a feeling or an emotion when people go out there aren't you?Anton: Yeah, we all try and understand it, in a way it's possibly the opposite trying to understand what's going on, trying to make sense of the place.Philip: Interesting, what do you mean by that?Anton: A whole series of questions about how the place works and what's the best way to be in it maybe rather than - I like to think that I'm not trying to change the world.  You hear landscape architects saying I'm doing this because I want to change the world, I don’t want to change the world I just want to celebrate what's there and understand it rather than change it.  Philip: I hear what you're saying, I may be a little bit more self-indulgent.Anton: I don’t have that, the angelical streak.Philip: No I certainly do not have an evangelical streak, I do not believe in that at all.  I think we’re basically little nothings doing absolutely pathetic little nothings.Anton: ‘We’re the custodians of the landscape’, I always find that pretty pointless.Philip: I have no time for any of that shit, absolutely no time.Anton: We’re one amongst many.Philip: Yeah.  I get an opportunity to express myself and I think wow.  It's like somebody being given a canvas to work on and saying well you can do something here.  And surely as a designer - you can't go and ask your mum or your dad or the next door neighbour what you think you should do it has to come back to you what should be done.  So it's selfish in that way because -Anton: But it is playing against the social notions isn't it?Philip: Yeah.Anton: I mean landscape really is going through a phase now of being a vehicle for health and fitness and I guess landscape is being valued because it's instrumental in public health, ideas of public health and ecology.  It would have been instrumental in demonstrating power in the times of the European kings.Philip: Absolutely.Anton: So it’s interesting how that obviously changes and how we then respond to that and carve our own way through it.Philip: I don’t know if this is relating to it but if - like I took my wife out to both BP and Ballast Point and she just said to me, “That’s not a park what are you talking about.”  And I would imagine a lot of people would go out there and say come on, you know, that’s an affront.Anton: Mr Keating.Philip: Yeah well Mr Keating exactly.  And you say to yourself okay why do you did it like that.  And maybe it unravels because of my background and all the rest of it and on a challenge, but it's selfish it’s self-indulgent to the utmost.  If I’d done something that was what people would want then it would have all been just lovely rolling hills and plant like he did at Barangaroo perhaps.Anton: So it is propositional then, that’s always the question that what you're doing is putting forward a certain proposition about what landscape could or should be.  And trying to articulate that is probably the hard thing.Philip: Or is it taking the lead, like the story I did taking the lead, from where it is and then challenging how that might be interpreted in a way that you respond to it.  I like the idea that you come to a site with a preconceived idea.  It's a park therefore you’ve got this concept but when you go through it you're possibly challenging their thoughts as they're going through it.  And I quite like that idea.  I remember once I read about landscape is the stage set on which we live out our life.  And so to build the stage set you can play with people and make them experience slightly different things in different ways.  And maybe that’s important that we offer different experiences.  And that has a valid design outcome.Anton: But it does come back to what you were saying about Hong Kong in a way, the self-consciously controlling all this stuff whether it's in a delicate way or a punk way.  It's a question of where do you stop, where do you need to.Philip: Yeah, I totally agree.  Anton: What's your method for getting at that point, do you just have this sort of blinding instant realisation?Philip: I can tell you -Anton: You said you didn’t draw much.Philip: No it's all in the head.Anton: Do you write?Philip: No, no writing.Anton: Talk about it? Philip: No.  I pretty much walk around and put it in - I understand the issues, it goes in.  And I'll go for walks before I go to sleep at night, when I'm in the shower, and I pretty much put it together in my head before I start drawing.  And that’s truth.  And sure then you'll explore it a bit further and a bit further but in essence the core issues that I'm trying to understand and resolve I kind of lined up in my head.  I said so many times about - it was a great challenge to work over the top of your work at Ballast, I did not take that on lightly let me assure you, it sat in my head for a long time.  The day that I went out and I walked, I remember I walked up the lighthouse at Palm Beach and it was there in my head the whole walk up.  And it just came to me at one point it was about telling the story about the change in philosophy about how we respond, the fact that we’re going to build - we’re now going to build a park in a land that previously we just diced and dissected and put an oil well, storage facilities and shat all over the place.  So how do we talk about that change in landscape and appreciation of it.  And then of course the logical thing well I can't go out and destroy another landscape to tell that story I had to try and work with the basics that I've got there.  Of course it didn’t work out purely like that but the idea, the genesis and the idea and from that everything kind of unfolded.Anton: And then what happens, it’s translated in some way to whoever is going to draw it?Philip: Well I then draw, I do all the drawing and the detailing.  I have to nail it at all the levels down, the walls, the way the precast sits over the top, that little delicate piece on the top that talks about the layers of delicateness.  I've said it many times that the very fine handrail that the fact when you hold it it's not brutal.  And all those things they're just all part of that story then aren't they.Anton: I thought you were going to say you get on site and direct a lot on site given your background in construction.Philip: When I was on site, I was on site twice a week for that one.  We were changing stuff all the time because of the nature of that site as you well know but it was pretty clear where we were going.  It was getting quality and working through the issues that building these things we’d never done before.  And I wanted to be there to make all the calls.  I mean how often do you get projects like that?Anton: I know, exactly.Philip: You get one beautiful shot at doing it.Anton: Can you wait for another one?Philip: Well I said to Adrian the other day that’s it I don’t know if I'll ever get anything like that again.Anton: So that makes me think of the greenfield sites, well not the greenfield but if you like these sites with much context such as Ballast and BP versus the new town or the apartment development where you tend to be working with constraints that are not leftovers from context but are constraints that come from architecture, engineering planning.  Do you find you gravitate towards particular type of project?Philip: Well I gravitate to certain kind of projects because of the market at the time for example.  You know as well there's a lot of residential development court yard spaces and we were both doing a lot of those kind of things.  Anton: Do you still do those?Philip: Yeah a couple but I mean they were just funny shapes and things and a bit of whimsy really. You know to kind of fill in the space and maybe make it look a bit interesting.  But they don’t have the heart and soul.  We explore a little bit in some of them about first flush water and bits and pieces.Anton: So system is important do you think?Philip: Yeah I think so. I think it has a bit more than just a little bit of whimsy, it has that something where you kind of say and it does this.  And it doesn't always work, they say great buildings leak.  You’ve got to try, you've got to try and push things a little bit and so much of the stuff we've done, you know.Anton: Do you think you pursue particular types of projects or where does your interest lie now?Philip: Oh yeah, yeah.Anton: Urban, natural or what?Philip: Urban.Anton: And at what scale in terms of -Philip: As big as I could get it, the city.  I think that for me I hate the fact that as a landscape architect I get brought in after certain bigger picture stuff has been done and here’s that nice little piece for you to do, off you go.  The city, I love the city and the bigger the thing.  Of course I've had that experience in Hong Kong and working with rather large scale stuff so I'm comfortable in that area.  But I love the idea of actually guiding the overall - imagine like Parramatta I know we did the thing, and then taking it and then starting to document and build it and work with the architects to get the form right and all the rest of it, that kind of stuff.  We’re working on the very controversial WestConnex at the moment, which is really challenging.  And you think well how do we make the city better, you either walk away from projects of complexity and nastiness or whatever it is or you get involved and see how you can move it towards something a bit better.  And I am quite interested in challenge by that kind of stuff as well.Anton: Do you have a particular way of working in those contexts with the multidisciplinary team, how do you set things up?Philip: I don’t know how you see it but when you enter into those kind of environments and you know who you're working with, essentially it's an engineer driven project where the outcomes are to really move vehicles, masses of them, from point A to point B you're a little pest that’s flying around to possibly beautify it so it doesn't look so bad when they go and just flog it to the community.  But I treat it like going into war and I know what battles I want to win and I'm the only one who knows what battles I want to win.  And I'm prepared to lose a few battles but I've got this war and I want to win the war.  So I'm very conniving.  There's a lot of psychology working with the various people, understand what they want to get out of it so that you can use that when you want to.  I do like that challenge of working through those situations and hopefully getting something out of it.Anton: Do you find you're still designing then or you're taking up most of your time by -Philip: I think the designing - how much is design that we all do.Anton: Well there's an argument it's all design.Philip: Exactly.  One of my directors in a past life he was a really brilliant designer but he was in there one day in the boardroom and he was writing all over the place and I said what are you doing and he said I'm putting together a program for - this was the Chek Lap Kok airport in Hong Kong.  And I said, “You shouldn't be doing that, I mean somebody can do that you're the designer.”  And he said to me, “Phil, where do you think design starts?”  And it is, design is everything.  If we have an idea and we want to move it from the idea to the built outcome every bit in between is surely part of that design process isn't it.  We might not perceive it as that.  But the actual drawing and the actual ideas as we get older they come quicker and faster and a lot easier, I think.Anton: How do you work in the practice then, how does that work do you tend to split projects?Philip: Yeah, Adrian and I used to work together but you know Adrian.Anton: Yes.Philip: Actually I'm a bit combative too, we’re very egotistic.Anton: Healthy tension.Philip: That’s it.Anton: Productive tension.Philip: It is.  Actually a lot of our good projects have come about when Adrian and I worked together but it tends to be me leading and Adrian kind of sniffing at the edges, chucking bombs to say that’s crap and all this and I've got to rework a little bit here and there.  But we found it was best off that we each ran our own projects and then crossed over now and then just to see how it's going.  And I'm very much I'll sit down and say mate come on, come on you can’t be serious, come on.  And he'll defend it.  But then he'll go away like I do and you'll see it next time and it might be tweaked a little bit in that direction that you've talked about.  So there is that feedback loop.Anton: Do you consciously set up the projects to make that as productive as possible?Philip: No we can't because it's too confrontational, like I sit down "okay Adrian now show me your design" [laughs] that doesn't work.  So it's done a lot more loosely like it's sitting there and I'll say that looks interesting what's that.  And he'll kind of talk a little bit about and I say have you thought about doing this and this and this.  And he'll do the same to me.Anton: What about the office culture, are you conscious of that, do you create that?Philip: It's very, very important, don’t you think?Anton: Absolutely.Philip: I think the office culture is -Anton: And how do you do that, do you have - what is it?  How do you do that and what is it?Philip: As we’re getting bigger we’re finding different ways to address it.  But when we were a lot smaller it was very much me going around sitting with all the guys, working through trying to teach, understand where they're at, listening to them.  But fundamentally making them realise that we want to be the best design firm we can be and that what you're doing has to be the best.  We’re not talking about good enough we’re talking about the best.  So every time you pick up any piece of what you're doing with us it's an important role, I want to see it come back better because you picked it up.  Everybody picks it up, polishes it, hands it on to the next person.  It is fundamental.  And if you don’t want to be part of that I'm sorry then you're not part of the team that we need you to be part of.  And that is absolutely - and you know you're award winning practices, it reverberates back to the team.  They know that we’re not here to do average work we’re here to do the best work and to push it.  And then it comes down to employment of the right people obviously that are a part of that and understand it and want to build on it and enjoy working in those environments.  And then as we’re getting bigger we’re setting up a leadership group that will make sure that the culture is passed on down to the younger team as they come through.  And then of course design competitions are important I think and obviously getting away as a group and going and looking up projects together, which I'm sure you do, and all that kind of stuff.Anton: Do you have a sense of the size practice that you want to be or want to stay at or become, is that something you -?Philip: Of course we talk about it.  For me Adrian and I are risk takers right, I have - you know I've done lots of things, travelled, blah blah blah.  For me it's just interesting to experience life at all its different levels.  I've never set up other practices in other countries so that’s what we’re doing at the moment to see what we can do.Anton: Where's that?Philip: We’ve got an office now in Shanghai with Jack, I don’t know if you know Jack our guy, and also Bristol which is with Mike who used to work with us as well.  Why, because we figure we want to work in the best projects around the world and why can't we.  You and I are good enough to work anywhere around the world, I would put our practices out there with anybody else.  I'm looking at others and going wow we’re nowhere near as good as them - of course we are as good.  We might come at different solutions but we’re as good as anybody so why haven't we got the opportunity to go and work on the big projects around the world, why not.  If we can great, it if works great but if we don’t boo hoo we had a go at it.  And I like the idea of having a go.  And I learn.Anton: What does that mean, you're involved in China and Brisbane and Melbourne and -Philip: Not Brisbane but China, Melbourne, Sydney obviously and Bristol.Anton: Oh Bristol, I thought you said Brisbane.Philip: No Bristol just outside of London.  Yeah it's just the challenge of life, have a go.  Seriously mate if it fell on its face so what.  I'm learning so much in the process of setting this stuff up that I didn’t know about, I find that really interesting.Anton: Are you finding different attitudes, in a way part of this podcast is highlighting or talking about the different conceptions of what landscape means.  You think you have a particular - the east coast, there's an east coast sort of take on what landscape is and how does that sit with China and England?Philip: My personal belief, I'm not that into tastes or whatever, maybe I should be.  But I just think good space, good design, intelligent thinking, good urban design is fundamental.  Sure it changes according to the location maybe like for example in China and space and all that are different in their scale because of mass and all the rest of it.  But understanding space and working with it, getting a composition right.  If you get that right you’ve fundamentally got - you can think green or whatever but get that right and you've got the fundamentals.  Anton: You made that comment earlier about freeway projects which is really the landscape is there to sell it to the recalcitrant community.  Is there a sense of what landscape does in China, why is there landscape in China on those Chinese projects?Philip: One of the interests that we have and I don’t know if you know we've got Dave Knight who's working with us now, used to work with Aquatica.  But anyway he's a water sensitive urban designer and a really great lateral thinker.  Our interest in China is that how do we bring landscape and the ecology water, you know water in China is just screwed their groundwater is all polluted.  They need real help in this area and so the idea of working over there with water and landscape and bringing the two together and showing how they can both benefit one another is an interest that we've got and we'll see if we can get some projects to do there.  And of course they’ve got some bloody big projects that will challenge us as well and how do we respond to that.Anton: Because obviously there's huge cultural difference and engaging with that is interesting.Philip: I've got seven years of working over in Asia, I have a certain understanding of it.Anton: That raises that vexed question of context and sense of place doesn't it, we've been through a few variations on that.Philip: And then you get the greatest designer supposedly or urban designers and they built fucking Canberra, the most people devoid experience you'd ever want to go to.  So do we really know what we’re doing, do we?  We think we do, we think we’re getting better but I don’t know?  You just have a punt and hopefully it works out.Anton: You negotiate the terrain as you find it.Philip: [laughs] Yeah.  I don't know, I've never really figured it out, never.  And to teach it I don’t think you can even teach it.  I think you can kind of nudge people but if they haven't got it basically embedded in their brain I think it's extremely difficult.Anton: Well I suppose you made me think about an article I read last night by a painting professor from the US who was saying that critical theory, she teaches it in art history but in the painting studio she thinks it's totally destructive because it sort of comes before the fact of actually finding what you might discover in doing.  And that possibly raises that complex question what is landscape architecture for you as a thinking, is that what - where’s the nub of it, engineers do technical drawings.Philip: But that’s where it comes down to, I mean it's not a science it hasn’t got a formulaic approach to it, there is no right or wrong.  Like an engineer you can argue the arch is going to fall down if you do it at that thickness.  The landscape architecture, you can't.  We can crit it and we can say I don’t think that because of this but there's no mathematics behind it.Anton: No but it's that interesting question of what makes landscape architecture, at what point - why is your back garden not landscape architecture and something else is?Philip: That opens up the Pandora’s box doesn't it?Anton: Yep.  And the comment I heard in Melbourne, somebody from ARM saying architecture is not about buildings, architecture is about drawing.  That’s what architects do they make two-dimensional and I suppose now digital but two- dimensional work, that’s their work making two dimensional things.  The builders make the buildings.  Philip: Yeah we do the drawings.Philip: So where does landscape sit if you take that view?Philip: Mate I love esoteric questions, I love the esoteric question yeah and I think you could - I know a lot of designers, and I'm sure you do too, who've probably never written a spec in their life.  But for me so much of the design, the nuance the delicacy, is in the specification isn't it.  That moment when you're out on site and you're flipping over and you wanted that Phillips head countersunk recessed screw that had a male and female joint that knocked one another out and sealed the joint perfectly.  And when they go through the spec it's not in there and the guy’s brought along this coach-head bolt and this thing and he's going to shove the two together.  And you go mate sorry where is it.  It's a lovely question.Anton: Well that says a lot I think, that’s interesting.  It comes back to the industrial design and your love of detail.  Philip: But the talk of what is landscape architecture, I think we've been going on about this for years and years and years and years and we'll never define it.  Because the beauty is it has no edges, it has no squares or circles, it is exactly all those things that you said isn't it, and it's beautiful in that way.Anton: It is, yeah.Philip: And luckily we can't capture it because we'll always be chasing it.Anton: Yeah I suppose the question was really about where the work lies - and I agree the work life is throughout but to use that term what's specificity, what is it.  Specificity in painting is the materiality of the paint, that’s what they deal with, they have to learn the materiality of the paint because you're dealing with it in a very tactile manner.  And what is it in landscape; it's a vague question, it's a vague concept.Philip: I like vague questions and vague concepts because it allows you to just imagine, float away in it.  All I know is that I can do it.Anton: Well, is it context, does it come back to responding to context?  And I don’t mean slavishly genus loci sense of place some sort of authentic context but just is it about responding to what's out there, which may be others like architects maybe don’t do or engineers in that it's a mathematical technical sphere they're in, their context.Philip: When you respond to context it's responding at the age that you're at with the experience you have, with the state of your mental inner being and whether you're happy or sad, whether you just saw something, a movie, an art piece, a bit of music that just absolutely - and somehow or other it wells up.  I don’t know about you but I quite often hear music and there's a kind of quality to the whole -Anton: Because you go into battle.Philip: Yeah there's the music.Anton: Into war.Philip: There is.  And it's not pop, this one’s not pop this one is classical and it's got this wonderful quality about it and then there's moments where it rolls on.  And all those things come into it.  I haven't got a fucking clue where this design is going when you sit down with that blank piece of paper, not a clue.  And I wonder whether at the end of it somebody put it up on the wall and they can say ‘that’s Anton’s work’.  And if you’ve been brought in as a young graduate and they'd shown you your work when you were mature whether you'd recognise your own work, and how did it get from there to there.Anton: Who's that boring old fart.Philip: I did that, or wow or I did that, shit!  How did we get there? And why are we talking, why are we talking out of all the professionals that are out there.  Because you got drawn into doing the masters to explore and to think about it.  That I'm perceived to be a certain level perhaps within the profession.  And so we’re having this game, circumstance all comes together.  I love life, I think it's a fascinating process, continually mystifies me and I wake up every day going wow what's the next one going to be.Anton: Will Alsop I heard him say something very funny, he said, “When I was 20 I was full of ideology and total convictions.  When I was 40 I had some strong ideas.  When I was 50 I had some notions.  I'm 60 and I don’t have a clue anymore." [laughs]Philip: Yeah I think that’s a lovely thing, which honestly I don’t feel like anything.  I still think someone is going to call me out and say he's a fake, a fraud.  You know that kind of - I was lucky once or twice, [laughs] circumstance happened and I was okay once or twice but couldn't do it again.  And the guy’s all over himself haven't got a bloody clue what he's doing.CreditsConversation: Philip Coxall + Anton JamesAudio recording: Anton JamesAudio editing: Angela GrantWebsite content: Matthew KnealeFunding: RMIT University School of Architecture and Design SRC Grant

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  • 00:43:45

    Wes Schaeffer on Building a Recurring 6-Figure Business

    · Sales Funnel Mastery: Business Growth | Conversions | Sales | Online Marketing

    In this episode we chat with Wes Schaeffer about how he was able to build a 6-figure recurring business, from scratch! We discuss all sorts of things including how he did it, the mistakes he made along the way, how he made himself stand out from his competition, and MUCH more. Enjoy! Resources Mentioned theSaleswhisperer.com Want To Work With Me? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey everyone this is Jeremy Reeves with another episode of the sales funnel mastery podcast and today I have on the line, Wes Schaeffer, and he is the sales whisperer. So we actually have -- we are going to kind of talk about his story. So really quick to kind of like you know, give you like a 5 second on review. He started the company called The Sales Whisperer in 2006 and kind of started off cold calling to get his clients and then he brought you know funnels and you know marketing automation and that kind of stuff into his life which you know, everybody here is interested. And in 2008, kind of got wrapped around with Infusionsoft and he bought the product and started using Infusionsoft and you guys know all about that and then he became a reseller of it and became their top reseller in the world, partner of the year in 2012, he wrote a book on Infusionsoft and then that led to his business kind of you know shooting off a couple different directions and then he wrote a second book. He has sales training CDs and you know, a new program that is coming out soon, and all that kind of good stuff and he did it all with inbound marketing, and working from home, he built a 6 figure recurring business you know, that kind of just goes you know. So that is what we are going to talk about. We are going to get into his story, get into kind of the nitty-gritty of how he did everything because I know that is what everyone listening is interested in doing themselves. So we are going to get in to all the good stuff. So Wes, how are you buddy? Wes Schaeffer: I am good. Thanks for having me on. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, nice. Yeah. So I found out that Wes is a very ugly man and had a pork chops tied to his neck when he was a child, so his dog will play with them. Wes Schaeffer: (inaudible 1:50.7) all my pictures are Photoshop you know. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, so me and Wes had a funny little conversation before we started, but -- So Wes, you know, tell us a little bit more, go into a little bit deeper about your -- kind of how you get started in the entrepreneurial world you know, and that kind of stuff and then we will get into your business like what you are doing now and that kind of thing. Wes Schaeffer: Well, I was in the Air Force and I got out after 9 years and just want to go into sales and I want to get paid for my production not for my time and grade, right. And I jumped right into the world of financial services you know, being a stockbroker in the south and I mean I was just cold calling. It was just brutal, but I made sales and when you get those big commission checks it makes the brutal work be a little less brutal, but that job did not work out and that is a whole long sad story best told at a bar with a lot of alcohol and ended up bouncing around jobs. I would always succeed, but I ended up in high tech and there was a lot of turnover. I mean one time, I was 33% over quota. One of like 3 guys in the world that made my quota and was still laid off because in telecom sector and it is just you know, in early 2000s the dot.com residual just kept grinding down. I think at one point, after 4 years with this one company, I have been through 8 layoffs and 15 reorgs. It was just miserable and so I always had that entrepreneurial bug. I always had my fingers and things. I was trading stocks and commodities and options. I was flipping houses and rehabiting with people. I was just always have my finger and things and -- but I was still always trying to get better sales, I did not want to jump out on my own until I had a clear path. I had a wife you know, we had a couple of kids at that time and men by early 2000s, we had a 3rd kid, we had a 4th kid. So I did not want them to suffer, right, while I was trying to find myself, but I took a sales training class. It actually was a 12 week teleconference deal and I had to pay early. I had to pay like 5 months early before the class started because they have limited seats and so that started in early 2006 and it changed my life. And I ended up hiring that guy as a mentor, became a licensee of his content, estimated it was $10,000 and I was his first licensee, but I had access to him one-on-one and it changed my life. So by early 2007, I was on my own doing The Sales Whisperer and building the business you know and we had 5 kids at that time you know by then and my wife has always stayed at home 21 years now, she stayed at home. So I did not have you know a spouse’s income or benefits or any of that to cushion things, right. There was no safety net. And you know, and I made it work and you know, we get into the details, but like you said, you know, I started that in 2006. I bought a domain name at late 2006. You know it was funny I took that sales course in early 2006, by September 1, 2006, I knew where I was going, I bought the domain name by early 2007. I had my business license. I was doing conferences and I was making money as The Sales Whisperer. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. Yeah, I love hearing that. That is awesome. So I have a question for you. What is your favorite type of alcohol. Wes Schaeffer: Oh man, you know, I have evolved over the years. I was always a beer guy then we move -- we have been in Southern California for about 11 years and -- but I do not like the IPAs. Jeremy Reeves: Oh, I love IPAs. Wes Schaeffer: So we have been there 11 years and we live within 10 minutes of like 43 wineries and so when I was younger, I did drink a lot of wine, I like the whites but then I started really liking the reds, the big bold (inaudible 6:06.5) but I do not like those as much even more. So last several years I really been enjoying some good bourbons and scotches and you know, I just got this Bookers, it is a Jim Beam product, it is an unfiltered, uncut, right straight from the cast and it is a very high proof and I usually drink my whiskies like 1 ice cube you know, just break it up a little bit, but this you got to put a little water in it and what happens is, it ends up with almost like a sweet after taste. It is really interesting. So I have been enjoying that. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. Yeah, I actually like Bookers too. It is a good -- I actually had it, a couple of months ago and that was colder so sometime in the past, I do not know 6 to 8 months or so, one of our favorite restaurants that we go to was doing a -- they have beer samplers you know, like their flights you know, the one they call a paddle you know, they really give you kind of like a couple different beers. They did that for Bourbon and I saw it and the thing and I am like that is -- I know already you know exactly what I want because I am huge, huge, huge Bourbon fan. I used to be in a scotch more but I have been switching to Bourbon last probably a year or so, but yeah, Bookers was in there so it was really, really good. Sorry. Go back to business. So 2006, you bought and started The Sales Whisperer and then -- take us into you know, Infusionsoft and you became one of their top resellers in the world and so you know, what were some of the things that you did to you know, to do that you know, like -- because I know Infusionsoft they are reselling programs pretty competitive you know, I always see people it is funny like you know, you see in a group and it is like, oh you know, I am thinking of using Infusionsoft and all of the sudden you have like 50 Infusionsoft resellers, oh I am going to give you this bonus, I am going to give you this bonus. So it is pretty competitive you know. So what, you know, what kind of strategies you were using to kind of you know, break free from all that and kind of stand out? Wes Schaeffer: It was funny you say that because just this morning, I changed my pricing and I am just going to do one price and instead of a free kick start or 699 or 1999, I just changed it to $5000 kick start because I am tired of the noise, right, but that is what I paid in 2008. They only had 1 option, it was $5000 down (inaudible 8:54.4) a month and this is before the campaign builders, this is before the new email builder, really what you are buying was automation. Nothing was best of class except the automation and that was -- you could not live without it, really. I could not have grown without it. And so there is a lot of noise, but the you know, the way that I grew is I became a product of the product you know and I tell people to this day I am still the dumbest certified partner out there out of 4 or 500 because all these people they get into the nitty-gritty, right. They you know, to put it like a NASCAR terms, they are all chief mechanics, but I am the driver. Okay, I know how to drive that beast to his limits to win and people get hung up in this API call and HTTP post and SSL certificates and that blah, blah, blah and I am like why do you need this tool. What do you need it to do. Let us make it and go do that, okay. And so like I said, I became a part of the product, I used it. I supercharged it I did -- you know, when you start doing all this stuff right, when you start putting bells and whistles on your devices, on your vehicles, it may be cool that nitro boost is really cool until it does not work, right. Until it blows up and then it is like, oh my gosh, what cause that. And what happens too when you get all fancy like that is you scare away the typical user. So you show them this big soup-up beast and they are like that is really cool, but you know, I just take my kids at school, I go to grocery store, I go to the gym, I drive to church on Sunday, that is all I am looking for. No, no, no, look at this thing, you know, 750 horsepower, I am like, yes nice, but so by just using the product away it was meant to, I was able to speak to the needs and the fears and the wants and the desires of the average user. And then if they had any objections it was like, well let me show you how I address that right out of the box and I will show you when you order from me, I will show you how to do the same thing and then they are like, okay, cool. And it was just a no brainer. And so then over time, I created more contact. I wrote a book on it, but you know what, for the longest time, I had free mastermind call. You bought Infusionsoft from me, we just did a live call, it was an open Q&A and so it kept me in front of people. It kept me top of (inaudible 11:36.7) and so -- and then the word grew and then I would simply blog about what I was doing. I made simple, simple how to videos, right. Not this 48 minutes you know, Matt Daddy videos I mean 3 or 5 or 7 minute videos on how to do this little nagging thing that has stumped you forever, okay, because people we get too caught up in our knowledge. We think that, oh, everybody knows that. When in reality -- you know, you are an expert in your field and so not everybody knows what you know, okay. Not everybody knows the stuff you even forgot you know. So take the time to really break things down into their minute little details and so the cool thing is it gives you a lot of (inaudible 12:24.5) right it is not very onerous as well and you can bang out a 5 minute video in 5 minutes, right. And then do not get off crazy with editing in what not, just put it up there. You know, a friend of mine still says at this day I was making a video and I think our neighbor’s lawn guy came in you know, you hear a lawn mower and I am like, hey, hold on a second, I just (inaudible 12:46.3) up my cloths, my window, and I just keep going, I just left it in, right, because I am not a videographer. I am not an editor (inaudible 12:52.4) chopped it up blah, blah, blah it is like it would slow me down from publishing that video. You know (inaudible 12:59.0) horrendous yeah, you know I will chop it out but you know, me closing the window, great. Leave it in I mean it shows up my human being. People like it, you know, because -- so I produce content that people wanted to see and it was a content that I wanted to see. If I got stuck or a customer would ask me that over and over again or multiple prospects would ask me that, I will make a video about that. And then I grew. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, I like it. Yeah and Infusionsoft -- I have a, I use ontraport but they are very kid of similar play you know, they do a lot of same things, but a lot of my clients have Infusionsoft, so I have seen you know, I am not really the one that goes in and monkeys around that I know you know, how to use the automation not how to actually set it up you know, I have people to do that, but that is -- you know, how should be. It is not you know, I am kind of semi-technical guy you know, I know what to make it do, I just do not know how to actually you know do it, but I work with people who do. I tell them, hey, I want to make it do this and they do it you know. You know, Infusionsoft is a great product you know. It has got a you know with a -- the big thing that used to kind of drive a lot of people away was the complexity but with the whole -- what they called the visual builder, visual campaign builder or whatever. That is just like totally you know change the game with them. It is just so much easier now. So how did you know once you -- you know, you built this business and you know, you work from home. You do not have employees you know, it is kind of like the dream business that most people want you know what I mean. How long did it take you to get to that point? Wes Schaeffer: Oh man, you know, Infusionsoft -- so back in the day, they were paying at 20% commission. So in the very early days you know, you could not sell it direct or people could not pay that set up to me. They had to buy it from Infusionsoft then I got a commission on the upfront and then I got a residual commission. So you know, back then, 20% of a $300 a month actually or $60 a month, okay. So, you know, if you do the math, if you sell 100 of those, then you are going to make $6000 a month, okay. If you sell 200 of those, you are going to make $12,000 a month. Now that is assuming they pay $300, that assumes everybody stays, right, like no term you know, and obviously there is term and obviously there is a $200 version and they will run sales and you can get it for $250 and blah, blah, blah. So it took me you know a couple of years of steady selling to not only build up the upfront, so eventually, they change the model. They waive the $5000 fee, they did it for free for a little while and so we sold a bunch, but then people would quit because it was too hard to use before the campaign builder because they got no training you know, they were just like, hey here is the keys you know, to a 747 go get them tiger, you know. And it is like, no. So they get frustrated and quit. So then they came out with a $1500 kick start and a $2000 kick start and then kind of came back to the $1500 range and I am pretty much been there now for 5 years I guess. And so that gave us money to provide good training and so -- and then but because they changed it, then I kept the upfront. So for quite a while, I did everything. I would make the sale, I would do the onboarding, okay, and then I brought on somebody to help do some of the onboarding, but you know, if I am selling let say, 5 accounts a month, and I am charging $1500, well right there $7500 a month, okay, and then those 5 accounts if I am making 20% of $300, so there is $60 times 5, well there is $300 a month residual, okay. So you can start to see the math. I mean I was easily doing you know, 5, 6, $7000 a month upfront and then building, adding accumulative so $300 a month and then it was $600 a month and then it was $900 a month and so it build up you know pretty quickly and it just staying consistent like that but it was a lot of work you know. It was a lot of hours you know creating a lot of content. I made no outbound calls. I was not doing any type of PPC. I just make a content that people were looking for and they found me, but then I know how to sell, right. I would not overdo it. I would not pressure them and because I was a product of the product, people would opt in for a free report and then my drip sequence would drip on them and warm them up and send additional resources and then ask them if they like to talk again or hey, by the way, here is something you may not consider, go check this out. And then they were like, hey, this stuff really works and I am like, yeah, it does, you know and then the sale was just really natural and easy. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. So where did you go -- I know you -- you know, after Infusionsoft you know, what have you been doing since then. So that would -- you know, the whole Infusionsoft thing was kind of like when things started really you know, ramping up. They started kind of take (inaudible 18:40.5) and everybody has that point. I just did a -- I was listening to -- I forgot what it was, it was somebody’s podcast, I forgot. They were talking about Bruno Mars, the singer, you know. And they were talking about like a story and he was you know, like most successful people, you know, everybody wants this like, oh you know, they are so lucky that they are successful you know, they do not see the 20 years you know blood, sweat, and tears that went into that overnight success you know. And his is the same way and he basically like you know spent I do not know, I forgot how many years it was, but you know, a lot of years and a lot of you know heartache and all that kind of things, his family is poor growing up and blah, blah, blah and then within like a year and a half, he went from being not even known to hosting a Super Bowl you know what I mean, I mean not hosting a Super Bowl, singing at the Super Bowl, you know what I mean. And that happens a lot you know, there is always this one, thins one thing you know that kind of like, you do all this thousand different things and then there is something just clicks you know, and from there on, it is just like you hit and it starts skyrocketing even if the trajectory is a little bit different like you know Infusionsoft is where you started really kind of ramping up. But now you are doing you know, a whole bunch of other things you know. So what have you been doing you know since Infusionsoft and you know, becoming like (inaudible 20:06.1) a year and really getting that ramp up you know, what have you done since then to kind of keep up the momentum, keep things you know, kind of keep on pacing. Wes Schaeffer: Oh man, well you know, I did bring on some staff, they were not employees, they were full-time contractors and honestly, pretty much have brought on the last 3 years has screwed me over. It has been brutal. I literally would have an extra $200,000 in the bank if I just stayed in bed the last 2 years. I mean it is just brutal you know, people coming on and saying that they are good and not wasting money or getting distracted or just outright stealing my content and going off on their own you know, so you know, I have been trained by Wes and (inaudible 20:55.9) you know, I am just as good blah, blah, blah and so I was like well, and unfortunately, people will believe it and they do not know until after the fact you know. And so (inaudible visit) you know, you live and you will learn, but you know, the last year and a half I have also brought on other platforms so I did get certified in ontraport and did get certified in HubSpot but I am doing my own coaching and you know, I wrote another book on sales and marketing and deliver keynote speeches and I am coming out with a brand new sales training program called, Make Every Sale, because the one thing you got to be careful off is building your mansion on rented land, okay. So that applies with like social media marketing. I always say you got to have your own website. You got to drive traffic back to your own site but then I have too many (inaudible 21:54.7) Infusionsoft basket you know, I had too much in my income derived from a company that can and has and will continue to change the rules at any time. So they change the contract multiple times over the last 8 years, but for the most part it has been a fit in me, but it made me realized, I am not in control of this ride you know. I am just an active participant, a vocal participant but it is not my vehicle. So creating programs that I own you know, that make every sale program and my books and coaching programs, that is my focus now because I do have a good business that is running with the Infusionsoft in the marketing automation. So that is kind of like rubbing my belly, right, then I got a pat in my head and build the sales training and then I got to you know, do the next thing (inaudible 22:51.0) my foot to build the keynote speaking you know. So always you know, the worst thing you can do is get comfortable and get complacent you know, and it is a fine line you got to walk between making sure the thriving part of your business continues to thrive. So you have to give that enough attention, enough care and feeding and watering, but at the same time, you got to build that next income stream because the loneliest number really is one you know, if you have just one computer, 1 lead source, 1 income source you know, that will break, that will dry up, it just happens. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and you know, I actually have a pretty bad horror story with that one too. In 2011 or 2012 I do not know something like that, a couple of years ago, I was using -- that was when everybody was before you know Facebook was a big thing and it was when Adwords was you know, the big thing, but it was also in that time and I am sure you remember this. There is like this 2-year period where everybody just got like shun from Adwords and I had my whole lead generation like kind of system you know, was through Adwords, and it was you know, that was my one and then you know, I got the email, you have been blacklisted. You know, and I went from like getting you know being booked all the time from Adwords because I was like the only (inaudible 24:15.7) figure on how to make it work and all of the sudden it was just like goodbye, you know. What is ironic is that I got kicked off because I had too many testimonials on site. I was finding with them online. I am like actually getting people good results you know, but they would not even let me put disclaimers anything like that, but yeah, it was a big thing, but yeah, so I kind of hit that and then that is when I learned my lesson from and I think everybody goes through that too you know. A lot of my own clients and really successful people that I talked to, they have gone through that where they put all their eggs in one basket. The basket crumbled and then you know, they have to kind of rebuild from the ground up and then, but you learned that lesson you know. So speaking of that, you know. What are some of your other eggs you know, what is your funnel look like now for doing you know, some of the stuff whether it is you know, kind of funneling people into your Infusionsoft funnel or for your books or for your programs you know, how -- you do not have to go through everyone and like specific detail, but like in a you know, in a broad sense you know, what are you doing with the automation with Infusionsoft to automate your marketing? Wes Schaeffer: Well, so as I continuing to use Infusionsoft, but then you know, I did -- I expanded into other platforms, so instead of just being Infusionsoft you know, so now I am Ford, Lincoln, Mercury right or I added Honda and a Nissan dealership to my Ford dealership. So I can now help people with ontraport. Help them with HubSpot and then, I still have some good consultants that work for me that will do the fulfillment. So we will sell blocks of hours or project-based work to help people and I do not do it you know, I will help make the sale. I will make sure it is a right fit. I will come in and make sure it is staying on course and I will do some of the riding as well myself if people need it, but you know, so those are a couple of different components and obviously you know the (inaudible 26:19.8) but you are not going to get rich selling books unless you sell a Harry Potter, you know, but keynote speaking and then opening. I have had multiple different programs I have sold over the years with this (inaudible 26:32.6) every sale is going to be my signature program. It is going to be my signature umbrella, really, and under that will be different components kind of like the dummies series you know. So the book is going to be over arching about sales and marketing, but then I am partnering with specialists in PPC, right, or social media marketing, and so we will have segments you know, book based that will dive into those specific topics. So then I am just seen as an overall sales and marketing leader and then it will be -- hey, you know, whatever Wes is using I want to use it, right. Same way, I mean, Nike is no synonymous with golf you know, where 10 to 12 years ago or 15 years ago they were not, right, but they signed Tiger Woods, and then okay, well Tiger uses Nike, so I will use Nike. So the more I can become a leader just in the space, then the ancillary products will become a much easier sale, because you know, I can honestly show people. Here are tools that I have used to build my business you know, if you are in a similar situation, if you can afford these different products then they will probably help you as well you know, and it will make the sale easier. So that is the plan moving forward. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. So in doing that and kind of building your authorities you will call it. How are you doing now? Are you doing any paid advertising which I do not think you are, but you know, and if you are not you know, what kind of platforms are you using? Is it just organic kind of just -- word of mouth, are you doing you know, article marketing you know, podcast videos, which I know you are on a podcast, but you know, tell us a little bit about like the various marketing channels you know, that you are using to kind of gain that authority in the marketplace. Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, it is all been organic. A content driven, but I am starting to do some advertising. (inaudible 28:42.2) right now the day with my team. And that is one thing I just -- I do not know, I (inaudible 28:48.4) I guess I was fortunate because I could, but the marketplace is getting more crowded. There are -- Infusionsoft has a lot more aggressive in their marketing and paid advertising and a lot more partners that come in. So I have to master paid advertising and that is number one on my priority starting right now. So look for that there will be change and you will see my mug all over the place (inaudible 29:17.4) I will be (inaudible 29:19.6) your butt and following you around. To think I am everywhere. Jeremy Reeves: You should try -- we should go back to the pork chop thing and like put a pork chop around your neck. I have a funny picture of like a dog chasing you around. That will be awesome. Wes Schaeffer: Nothing is sacred to me, man. I will do crazy marketing. I do not care. Whatever it works. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you know what, I actually just launch a campaign this morning. I do not have any results yet because you know, because it has just launched a couple of hours ago. And the whole thing was around this concept that I came up with. From when you first get people into your funnel and like the first email you send you know, most people is very boring you know, and that kind of thing. So I came up with this email called -- it is basically use the email to assimilate, resonate, and then shock you know. So it is assimilate, resonate, and shock email. So if you like take you know the first words, the acronym that is ARS you know. I was going to do (inaudible 30:25.2) but I could not think of anything to like you know, make it (inaudible 30:27.9) So I am actually doing a campaign and you know, so of course, I am using that you know, in the Facebook campaigns and the clicker rates are insane. So far it is doing like you know, it is really -- I cannot really say what sales because you know only a couple of hours old, but in terms of like just you know, the first metric which is getting clicks you know, it is way, way above anything else that I have ever done because of that like shocking you know, kind of aspect to it you know. I am definitely going to play around more with stuff like that you know what I mean. Just have fun with it you know, like we are -- me and my team were coming up with the concept and we are throwing around different wording and things like that and I came up with that and like, nope. That is it. We are going with that and like we have a lot of fun doing it. We are laughing the whole time you know, it was really fun, and a lot of people are kind of scared to show their personality in their marketing and it is just a huge mistake because as you were saying like, I mean the marketplace is getting crowded and one of the best fastest way that you can stand out from that is by you know, showcasing your personality, assuming you are not some you know, tree log. Assuming you have some kind of personality, but yeah, I mean, that is definitely one area you know. As you are doing Facebook advertising or whatever advertising you are doing, I would definitely test out campaigns that get like just do like two of them you know, that are like kind of normal whatever you normally see and then do one that is totally off the wall. I know that is kind of how I am approaching mine you know. As you do that, test it out. Let me know how that goes to because it is kind of a theory I have that is just the way that marketing is shifting you know, number one to personalization which is, I mean that is not even a theory, that is enormous fact, and then number two is personality driven you know. And that is actually what my whole kind of report that I am sending people (inaudible 32:27.8) you know, but yeah anyway, I kind of stall your (inaudible 32:31.8) for a few minutes. Wes Schaeffer: I agree, yeah. I like doing crazy stuff. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you know, it is fun. Wes Schaeffer: Well into a degree as necessary, right. You got to be you know, the thing I always cover in my training is your marketing has to be congruent right. It is got to fit, you know. If you are a high price lawyer, you know, defense attorney or something you may not be able to get (inaudible 32:59.5) but there is a guy every time -- I used to live Austin, my mom is right outside of Austin and there is a dude that is still there every time I fly in, he has got a big billboard and it is the lawyer that rocks and this dude with I think he is a white dude with dreadlocks and you are like, well that is something I do not see every day, white getting dreadlocks and B an attorney that rocks with dreadlocks and running big ads you know. So he has got this big, big persona and so you know, when you show up at his office and the next time I go to town -- I need to go to visit him because I have told the story for years, but I bet he does not have Muzak playing and I bet he does not have plush carpets and granite everywhere. I bet it is a cool place you know. I bet he has got like a beer on tap in the office you know, but he is congruent, okay. That is his message and that is who he is going after. So I can make crazy ads. You can make crazy ads because we are just laid back dudes that are real and so and I would rather screen out. I always talk about disqualifying prospects. I do not want to qualify, I want to disqualify. So by putting it out there, hey, I am crazy dude. I have fun. I am human being you know, if you are just stuck up and arrogant, do not bother calling me because we are not going to get along. So you know, kudos you for doing it and yeah and I am going to be definitely playing with things like that because that is my style and it is the only way to cut through the noise. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. Same thing with video too. I mean me and you were taking about this. In fact, actually, that is how the whole ugly and pork thing came up because Wes asked if this is an audio or video you know and I said it was audio and that you know, and then it kind of went into that, but I have actually been thinking about doing videos because you know, I feel like I am like, I am able to you know be transparent you know, I just kind of be myself like I do not really (inaudible 35:05.0) because I do not really give a shit you know. A lot of my friends they are like, how do you, you know, tell somebody like I do not care you know, like you know, I can like walk around in public with you know, like a (inaudible 35:17.5) you know and like walk through you know, and it is like, people are going to think you are weird. I am like so what, who cares, I am never going to see them again you know. So that is kind of just how I am so that is kind of like you know, changing my marketing a little bit is to showcase that more you know what I mean and video is just a good way to do that and it is a lot more fun too you know, but yeah, I mean I think that is a huge thing for everybody in this is you know, I mean I work with all kinds of people in different industries and it is not just you know like the whole expert industry like people in marketing. I mean it is like all the industries that I am looking at that is where it is shifting is you know, is transparency, trust, authority but then mixing that in with you know, having fun like personality-driven businesses you know. It is just a huge, huge shift that I am seeing because you know, I do not know why I shifted like that. I think it is because there are so many people and you know, the internet, it has made it so easy to start a business that there is so much competition that you know, that is just kind of the way things are going that you have to differentiate yourself in some way and just the way that is going out which is you know personality. I know I am you know, following people less and less if they are kind of just the same old same old message and you know personality and you know, that kind of thing. I find myself like if I am looking for my inbox pretty much everybody I am listening to has some type of very strong personality you know what I mean. There is really nobody that is just kind of like, ah, you know, blah, blah, blah like you know very boring unless their message is just like totally out of this world brilliant you know, but there is very few of those, but yeah. So I mean you know, we are coming up on time here. So you know we went through a lot of different things today. I hope everybody got a lot out of it. I always like to hear people stories and kind of what they went through to get where they are now and some of the mistakes that they learned you know, kind of have them you know, all your eggs in one basket was one of those you know, so tell us a little a bit, 2 things number 1 you know, what your plans are kind of moving forward which you are already (inaudible 37:38.4) little bit so if you want to go into a little bit more detail on that, kind of like what your kind of seeing yourself doing over the next whatever the rest of this year, the next couple of years you know, kind of what your vision is and then also you know, if there is anything that I did not ask that I should have you know, if there is anything that you really want to cover that I you know, I did not ask the question you know, go into -- go into that a little bit. Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, you know, it is just more of the same and what we talked about just really going bigger and broader. I have (inaudible 38:08.2) from paid you know in the beginnings because I did not have to and then it became because I did not understand it, and so I have to get out of my own comfort zone and dig in. To the large degrees well, I did so much with Infusionsoft and still to this day. We cannot run ads that say buy Infusionsoft you know, that goes against the partner in terms of agreement. So it kind of force my hand in that regard and I did not want to do services works so I just kept doing what worked, but now, to do sales training and sell more books and get keynote speaking gigs I am just -- I am diving in, but you are going to see me on more stages you know, I just spoke a week and half ago at the Glazer Kennedy super conference. I am speaking here in a couple of weeks in Vegas. So you are going to start seeing me out a lot more you know, I stayed home on purpose you know, I have got a big family, I like being home and I have turned down a lot of things because I just -- I do not want to travel, I do not want to fight the airport, I do not want to fight the all travel, but I do have to get out there a little more to get the word out, but I will be doing more workshops and things here. I want people to come to me and where I live is very nice, it is Temecula area you know, 43 wineries. It is really beautiful and it is very poorly marketed you know. So there is some great resort here. I mean we are an hour from San Diego an hour from Orange County, an hour from Ontario, an hour and a half from Palm Springs. So you know, the destination come out, learn, relax, go on hot air balloon rides and you know hang out with The Sales Whisperer right, that is (inaudible 39:54.8) you know, to build the aura you know, to build the brand you know, I always said when I was a corporate (inaudible 40:03.5) I told my boss I want to be the next Zig Ziglar you know and he died a couple of years ago and I truly feel like there is a void and I felt like I can help fill that and you know, so that is the long range plan. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, I love it. Yeah and that is an awesome thing -- I do funnel days which is a very similar concept to what you are talking about and they are really fun you know, I have not done any big mastermind things yet. It is kind of on my list of things to do but yeah I mean, Temecula that area is awesome. I go out to San Diego once a year and that whole just you know, like 2 hour region you know, give or take from LA is awesome you know, North and South of it. I actually have a client that lives up in that area, but yeah, it is a very cool area. I am in Pennsylvania so I always wish that I was on California, you know, especially after our weather last week here is horrendous. We got the whole week went without any sunshine. Yeah, it was awful. I felt like I was living in Alaska. Like, oh my God, but now it is nice and bright and sunny. I am actually going to go out and go for a run I think after we get off the call here. So yeah, so good luck with the you know, getting people out there. I know several people who have done it. I am going to do it and everybody that has done it, loves it, because you are getting paid to get people to come to you and it is a lot of fun and you know, everybody gets a lot of value out of it and yeah, so I have to recommend you, you know, add that to your list and make sure you get that on because it is an awesome you know, thing to do for your audience. So is there anything that you feel compelled to make sure that people know before we get off the call. Any kind of big question that I missed. Wes Schaeffer: No man, we got pretty deep you know. To everybody you know, the main thing is you just take action you know, pull one nugget out of this and go apply it to your business you know. Knowledge in education is worthless if you do not do something with it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, exactly. It really is. I know way too many people who have piles and piles and piles and piles of you know courses and then you look at their business, nothing is implemented. Hey man, it was a pleasure having you on. It was awesome to hear about your story. The last thing before we go, where would you like people to go to learn more about you, get on your list, talk to you about working with you, you know, whatever you would like people to do next. Where should they go. Wes Schaeffer: Yeah, just visit theSaleswhisperer.com and you can find everything there. All my social media accounts, everything then plenty of different free reports so really pick what interest you, you know, whether it sales or marketing or automation. I got all types of tools and things for you to get there. Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good. Hey it was a pleasure having you on. We will talk to you soon. Wes Schaeffer: Alright man. Thanks Jeremy.

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  • 00:17:04

    Cool Stuff We Learned During Our "7 Day Launch"

    · The Marketing Secrets Show

    Here is a recap of a 7 day internal launch that made over a million dollars and what we learned along the way. On today's episode Russell gives the details of the 7 day launch strategy and what worked and what didn't. Here are some insightful things you will here on this episode: A step by step guide to what Russell did for each of the 7 days in the launch. What mistakes were made and how Russell and his team were able to make tweaks on the fly to make it better. And what Russell learned from the experience and how it can help others with their own businesses. So listen below to get a cool step by step guide into the 7 day launch. ---Transcript--- What’s up everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome to Marketing Secrets podcast. Today we’re going to be talking about the 7 day launch. Hey everyone, this is Russell and welcome back to Marketing Secrets podcast. So today I’m going to be talking to you guys about this launch right here and the reason why, is my inner circle members keep asking me, “Hey Russell, can you please show us what happened behind the scenes of the 7 day launch?” They want the stats, numbers and details. So I thought I’m going to kill two birds with one stone. Because I wanted to talk about this on the podcast anyway. So this is for the inner circle members and for those of you who listen to the podcast, I hope you love it. I’m not going to go deep into the numbers, I will just tell you that this launch in 7 days did over a million dollars in coaching sales, which is exciting, so it worked. I initially learned about this concept from one of my friends, Brendon Burchard. If you watch Funnel Hacker TV, the behind the scenes show, you will see some of the behind the scenes of us kind of going through this. He was in Las Vegas and I flew out there and there’s a whole episode on funnelhacker.tv where you’ll see me flying to Vegas, hanging out with Brendon and getting ideas on how he did this. So I’m not going to go too deep into all the strategies, just because I know he is launching a course later on this year. I’m going to buy it, you should all buy it, we should all buy it, it’s going to be amazing. Going deep into the deep in the details and giving the swipe files and stuff like that, but if you were watching you probably saw it, first off. Second off, you probably got the swipe files just by getting my emails and stuff. So you’ve got some feedback, if you’ve been funnel hacking and watching, you’ve had a chance to see it. Basically the way it worked is we did the book launch for the first 30 days, which built up a lot of pressure and excitement and we made a lot of book sales and upsells and everything else. At the end of it I wanted to do something cool. I wanted to figure out how, those who wanted to go deeper, how do I offer a coaching program that’s not me being, I didn’t want to feel like I was selling again because it’s just…..You know how it is, after a while people don’t want to keep being sold. I’d say it’s not like I wanted to sell a coaching program, to help people want to go to the next level with it, which is exciting. But then second off, I wanted to give and serve. So when Brendon gave me this idea I loved it. So basically how 7 day launch works is, and those who saw it, basically what happened is Monday I started promoting it, Tuesday I did this long training. So if you’re watching the video you can see day 1 I basically did an episode from 11 until noon-ish, I can’t remember exactly how it all went. And module one was you becoming an expert. What’s interesting is the book promo is all about Expert Secrets, but there was stuff like as soon as you read the book there’s this weird finality where it’s written and done and you can’t edit it or touch it again. And there were things as we’re selling it that I was like, “Oh…” during my interviews all these things kept coming up. There was stuff I wished I could share and there was pieces I wanted to just do. So what’s cool, is giving the ability, because I don’t have to re-teach the book, because people have the book, but here’s a master class of what’s next. If you read the book and you’re like, “What’s the next piece? What is it?” So this one here I went really deep with you becoming an expert and finding your voice and it was just training and it was awesome. So what we did is we emailed, so on Expertsecretsmasterclass.com, by the time there was a video, they embedded the live video from YouTube, people could watch and promote that through email. But then we also setup Facebook Live, I think there’s just those two platforms. So when we started this and clicked record, I came on and said, “Hey guys, we’re recording a course, it’s going to be awesome. I’m going to jump up here and start recording, be back in a minute.” Then we clicked go and it was like life. So I taught this entire thing, training. It was awesome. Then during the breaks we had testimonial videos streaming of our coaching program of the FHAT event, The Funnel Hack A Thon event so people could keep seeing success stories. I took a break so I could go to the bathroom and reset. We came back and taught number two, which is creating an irresistible offer. And that was it for day. I think I was up there for 3 hours, it was awesome. When all was said and done, I think we  had 20 or 30 thousand people watch it between YouTube and Facebook. Gave tons of good will and it was really, really cool. A lot of people who, they’ve been stuck on these two pieces, I had a chance to go deeper on that and give them everything. So that was day number one. And then this is where it replayed for 24 hours and then it disappeared. People had the chance to watch it for 24 hours, and some did, and then it disappeared. Then day two started. Day two I wanted to do the big domino, it went really deep to help people understand that. Then we had a break again, and then what I did at the latest session, actually did a webinar. Now, it’s a little different from Brendon, when he did his, basically at the end of day two is when he pushed people to a video sales letter, which sold a product. Me, I just did a webinar. One of the big things that was kind of interesting. When we created this offer, part of this training is really cool and desirable. A lot of people aren’t going to be able to watch it live, and you pull it down and you stage, because people actually want the content and the training. At the end of this I’m not selling this as a course because it’d be hard to sell because people are like, “I missed part of it, I should have watched it!” and all these kind of things. So instead it’s like, if you join the coaching program you get all this course for free, and notice I didn’t say the recordings of this product. Because recordings seem really cheap. Getting this course, the Expert Secrets Master Class, the perceived value is way higher, it’s the course not the recordings. If you watch the videos back I tried to say that, I think a couple of times I messed up and said recordings. I was trying to get it perfect. So that was here, and then what’s cool is that happened and sales started coming in for the coaching program. Because there was a webinar and they got to watch me do the webinar but then I was actually selling the coaching program on the webinar. Now what’s happening, as soon as it was done, it’s funny because it’s the first time I’d ever done this webinar. We created it the night before, it was perfect webinar, hacked style. So it was one headline, three secrets, a board with things. I pitched two offers, which is usually a wrong thing to do and it was in this case too. We had 2,000 or 15,000, it was just complicated when you get to the stack. So sales did okay, but I was kind of honestly, when the camera shut off, I was sitting there kind of depressed. Dang, that did not feel right. They didn’t convert right. Some people bought but it wasn’t right. I was just like, dangit. I was frustrated and that night I was kind of stressing out about it and realizing that. So then we made some tweaks and changes. And the cool thing is day three, I came back and broke down the campaign and showed them and went through the webinar again. And what’s cool about the second webinar, or the second training is because I was going through what I did and what worked and what didn’t work. I knew what hadn’t worked the first time. So I had this really cool opportunity to weave in different close, different stack, different things, to close the deal from the day before. I’m going to talk about why this is so key here. Because I think I figured out something amazing. But after that section, sales started coming in like crazy. The second webinar where I broke down what I did here, but then use that, and hopefully you guys watched that, if not you missed it. But I was weaving in all these closes throughout it, it was kind of a cool thing. But I was just breaking down what we were actually doing. Then we had a break and at the end I did a virtual book tour, which is kind of a bonus training of how we got traffic and then that was it. When that one ended, sales were coming in better than the day before. I was able to fix some of the things I had done wrong back here, which was good. But there was something wrong with the, there was something….it still wasn’t quite big so I was sitting there and I was kind of… I don’t know about you guys, but when you nail it I have all this energy afterwards. When I don’t I just feel this lack of energy. When we got done afterwards I was like, it was good but I still felt this lack of energy. I felt this weirdness around this pricing strategy and if you look at pricing it was $2000 to do the online version, or $15000 to do the online plus come to Boise, plus get Fill Your Funnel and a bunch of other really cool things. And it was kind of, there was complexity in it. So we were talking about it, “Maybe we’ll open up a payment plan.” I hate payment plans and all those other sorts of stuff. Then I had this idea and I was like, “Wait a minute, what if instead of a payment plan, what if…” So this is the pricing strategy that turned this campaign from….at the end of day two we probably had $150,000 in sales to two days later we did over a million dollars in sales. What was the difference? This was the piece that was key, it was pricing. So we shifted this, if you guys watched it, I came out and said, “Hey a lot of people are asking for a payment plan, unfortunately we don’t have a payment plan. But I did decide to turn this coaching program into a $300 a month one. So you come here, it’s $297 a month, or you can get lifetime access for $2000 or you can upgrade to the $15000 and com to Boise and get all this other stuff as well. So what’s interesting, I know some of the guys on my team were nervous, “Oh no. If it goes $300 a month, everyone’s going to take that and it’s going to draw whatever…” What’s interesting is that we had people take that, but what it did was become almost like a decoy offer where it made everybody buy the $2000 offer, it’s crazy. Tons of people bought, suddenly $2000 seemed cheap versus $300 a month and it was cool for 2 reasons. One, it got people to buy that. Number two it was cool because it got a whole bunch of people on a $300 a month coaching program as well, which is one of my goals this year. How do I create a $300 a month? To be honest Frank Kern has a $300 a month thing. Ryan STewman has a $300 a month thing. I was like, “I want a $300 a month training program.” So it kind of forced us to do that, but the cool side effect, it created this really cool thing where now $300 a month or lifetime access for $2000. So it was a huge discount there, which pushed everyone to the $2 grand. When we had Neurocell, our supplement, it was kind of similar the way pricing was. We had one bottle, three bottles or four bottles. We had a pricing strategy where basically you had to be a moron to buy one bottle. Where if you had any brains at all you’d buy the four bottles. It was $80 a bottle, or it was $40 a bottle if you get three. It was crazy and it pushed everybody to where we actually wanted them. And by doing this it did that as well. It helped me do two goals. One was to help me build up a $300 a month coaching program, number two it pushed people to what I actually wanted them to do, which was the $2000, which was really cool. Now it’s been fun because people are going through there and the training for those who are going through it, it’s super in depth and intense and crazy and amazing. It’s getting me excited to watch what people are doing. So that was some of the break down. Basically the last 3 days were urgency and scarcity and that’s what pushed it over the million dollar mark. That’s, by the way, a million dollars collected. A lot of people use, can I say this publicly? The company basically went bankrupt, so I can. There’s a thing we in the industry call stomper math. In stomper math, there’s a company called stomper net and they used to do launched and they’d be like, “We did 18 million dollars.” But it was not collected, it was if all the payment plans go through for the next 5 years then they would have made 18 million or something like that. I hate that. Stomper math, this was like a 10 million dollar launch. But in real math, not common core, but real math, we collected a million dollars. So after we rebuild stuff we’ll be higher. Anyway, I thought it was cool. Urgency and scarcity from this point forward, and again, the offer was basically the thing that I wanted to sell wrapped in with the recordings of this, excuse me not the recordings. I said a curse word. You get the Expert Secrets Master Class course for free as well. So that’s kind of it. So those who  were in the Two Comma Club coaching program, all the recordings of this are in the members area. So you can go back and watch them. I highly recommend at least watching these first three. These first three were probably some of the best presentations I’ve ever given, ever. I’m really proud of them and it will help you implement. The first three for those of you who are listening are The You in Expert, Create Your Digital Offer, and The Big Domino. There was something about the training, the way it worked. This training is just, I’m really proud of them, they turned out amazing. Anyway, we probably will be trying to evergreen this funnel in the near future, I’m not sure exactly how to do it yet. But in the future if you go to expertsecretsmasterclass.com, it may be there, the evergreen version where basically you opt in and we have a 24 hour countdown and it disappears after 24 hours. I don’t know, I haven’t figured that part out yet. We may or may not try that in the future. But yeah, that was kind of a breakdown of how the campaign worked and it was a lot of fun. Tons of reciprocity, tons of goodwill, a lot of people weren’t able to buy, they still got tons of stuff from that. And what’s been interesting in my business, as I’ve been watching this, the more I give away, it’s people have success with the free stuff, in fact Dan Henry is one person who said this specifically. A bunch of other people said, I feel like I owe you because I’ve made so much money from all the free stuff. Dan, I remember when he joined the inner circle, he’s like, “I feel like I owe you $25 grand for all you already gave me. So I’m just going to give it to you so I can be in your inner circle, but I feel like I owe it to you anyway.” And that’s what I want to do. I want to give people such good stuff, they can run with it and have success. So much so that in the future they’re like, “Man, I need to buy all Russell’s stuff, because I feel like I owe it to him.” So it’s kind of a good spot to be in. That’s what I’m trying to focus a lot more on. That’s kind of how the whole thing worked, it was really fun and enjoyable. The big key takeaways are number one, just giving and building this huge reciprocity streaming this huge, live streaming to YouTube and to Facebook. I think when all was said and done it was like a quarter of a million people that had seen parts of this training. It might have been more than that. It was amazing. Having an offer, a really good offer with a really good pricing strategy behind it, when Brendon comes out with his course later this year, hopefully he’ll….he’ll probably use this process to launch it. But watch how he structures his offers. I think that’s the key of it. What he does, he’ll do this whole training and be like, “Hey expert academy, my $1000 course, I’ll give you a 50% discount, so you get $500, plus you get this for free.” It’s all about creating an irresistible, amazing offer.  It took us a couple of tries and while this thing was happening, tweaking our offer before it got right. That’s another thing you’ve got to understand is that we’re tweaking offers in the, as they’re happening. In the middle we’ll be like, “Ah, it’s not working. It’s not converting. Change it, tweak it.” If your thing’s not converting, change the offer, don’t like, “Ah it didn’t work.” If you would have seen the behind the scenes, and I think we probably filmed some behind the scenes of that from the behind the scenes Funnel Hacker TV show. But we’re shifting and changing and modifying things on the fly because it’s happening in real time and it’s kind of crazy. Anyway, this was a really cool thing to kind of end the launch with. You know it added an extra million dollars to the bottom line, which was cool. It helped us figure out the pricing strategy for long term when we do evergreen-ness. How to actually sell the coaching, what the right messaging…Forcing myself to do a webinar live, helped me figure out what was wrong with my webinar hook. Then having me do a webinar where I recap the whole thing gave me another deep ability to fix the things and know what to do when I make this thing an auto webinar and sell it as a coaching program in the future. And this is the other thing I learned that was awesome. When you do a webinar, and maybe this only works in my market, I’m not sure. Or like a business market. But doing a webinar and then the next day showing them what you did. The second webinar made us more money than the first. So one cool thing I’m going to start doing is, I think with some of my webinars is if somebody registers be like, “Hey, if you watch to the end, what I’m going to do is send an email with a break down where I’m going to show you behind the scenes. I’m going to show you the webinar funnel, what we did. I’m going to let you funnel hack what I just did. I’ll give you the share funnels, the emails. But you have to watch the webinar to be able to get access to that.” And it should force people to consume the webinar, which will create sales and things like that. That was a cool thing, doing a double webinar. We did that back in the day. 8 or 9 years ago we used to double things like that. We’d do one and one right after. I forgot about them and it was, I think there’s a correlation here, doing a double webinar and the second webinar is showing something, but just keeps closing sales. But it’s a different presentation. I’ll test with that and let you guys know what we figure out. Figuring out your pricing strategy was big. There’s so many cool lessons from it. Hopefully you guys watched it and experienced it. You had a chance to see behind the scenes of the numbers and metrics, the big takeaways and aha’s we learned along the way. Anyway, it was pretty awesome. Hopefully I’ll see you guys. Thank you again for listening to Marketing Secrets podcast. If you are not on iTunes, please search on iTunes, leave me some feedback and listen to it there. Because on iTunes, it’s cool because it’s not just, I think this is episode 5 or 6 or whatever we’re on Marketing Secrets, but on iTunes you get access to all of the back episodes, like 350 episodes from when I was running the Marketing Secrets show under a different name. It was called Marketing In Your Car. I highly, highly recommend you guys going back and binge listening to all of those because they are good and they are worth it. A lot of our biggest success stories people have a chance to binge through everything. Watch the video here if you’re watching on YouTube, but go to iTunes and subscribe go binge listen to everything. Catch up with us. You can be hanging out with all these things and all this stuff will make a lot more sense to you. Anyway, that was it for the 7 day launch. I hope you guys enjoyed that and we’ll talk to you guys soon. Bye everybody.

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  • 00:39:03

    32 Larry Thomas, actor, "The Soup Nazi" on "Seinfeld"

    · Mr. Media Interviews by Bob Andelman

    Today's Guest: Larry Thomas, actor, "The Soup Nazi" on "Seinfeld" Elaine (Julia Louis-Dreyfus) runs from an encounter with the Soup Nazi (Larry Thomas) on a classic episode of "Seinfeld." (UPDATED JULY 5, 2015: When I discovered the original audio player for this interview with actor Larry Thomas no longer played correctly, I went digging in my audio archives, found the original from June 8, 2007 and upgraded the entire track. But it sounded a little funky. I looked again and there was a SECOND interview with Thomas from two weeks later, June 22, 2007. Then I hit me -- the audio recording the first time was terrible and Larry kindly agreed to a do-over. But with improvements in technology, I unintentionally rescued the first interview. You can now hear both; the first, from June 8, 2007, and the second, from June 22, 2007. And thanks again to Larry Thomas for being such a good sport -- and one of Mr. Media's first podcast interview guests!) Not many people have managed to land the words Nazi and funny in the same sentence. Charlie Chaplin did it in The Great Dictator. Mel Brooks did it in The Producers with the song and dance number "Springtime for Hitler." And my guest today, the Emmy-nominated Larry Thomas, did it, too. He’s been an actor for 25 years and is a veteran of dozens of films, TV shows, and hundreds of theater performances. Larry recently finished shooting the film Postal and was seen on “Arrested Development,” “Hot Properties," “Threshold,” “Scrubs,” and a Lexus commercial as a crazed pre-Bugsy visionary selling the idea of Vegas. Last year, Larry completed a 3- city, 140-show production of Neil Simon’s “The Odd Couple,” the female version, starring Barbara Eden. Who the hell is Larry Thomas? No answers for you, not yet anyway. Be patient, my friends. You’re not going to want to miss this interview. BOB ANDELMAN/Mr. MEDIA: Larry, I’m sure a few people recognized your name but most probably won’t. Could you end the suspense and tell Mr. Media listeners and readers the role for which you’re most famous? LARRY THOMAS: Well, I guess I could end it by saying, "No soup for you, Mr. Media!" I played the Soup Nazi on "Seinfeld." ANDELMAN: I think people now know exactly who you are. THOMAS: It seems to be a phrase that most of the world knows. I actually have been told by many people who I’ve met that they use the phrase constantly in their lives, and they’ve never actually seen the episode. They’ve actually gotten it secondhand from somebody else, but they love the way it sounds, so they use it. ANDELMAN: Isn’t that amazing? Now, do you remember getting the call to audition for that? THOMAS: I remember it really, really well. It was at a time in my life when I was actually under the threat of being thrown out of my acting class if I didn’t get a job, a paying acting job. I had a certain amount of weeks to get it. I’d worked and worked and worked, done interviews, tried to meet people, dropped off photographs, what they call pounding the pavement. One night I was actually having dinner with a guy that wanted me to work as a bail bondsman for his company because I was a bail bondsman, and I was trying to be more of an actor. I got paged, and I went to a pay phone, and my agent said, “There’s a call from ‘Seinfeld.’ They want to see you on this guest spot. The character’s called the ‘Soup Nazi,’ and I think they want you to work up a Middle Eastern accent. Other than that, there’s no scene available on paper or anything so you’ll just have to go in tomorrow morning and see what they have.” So it was kind of mysterious actually. LARRY THOMAS audio excerpt: I got a couple of calls from the East Coast, because I live on the West Coast, and I got a couple of calls from the East Coast saying, “Are you watching the news?” And I said, “Why?” They said, “They keep airing scenes of you or a scene of you from the ‘Seinfeld’ that aired tonight, and they’re comparing you to some real soup vendor in New York!”  Order from Amazon.com by clicking the DVD above! ANDELMAN: How do you prepare for something like that? THOMAS: Well, you prepare for every audition differently anyway, but the way you prepare is based on what you see on paper mostly. You want to read the scene and go okay, this is a comedy, whatever. I need to think this way or wow, this is very serious, I need to do a little work on this. In order to get the Middle Eastern accent, the first thing I did was I went home and took the videotape for Lawrence of Arabia, and I put it in, and I just worked up an impression of Omar Sharif. He has such a beautiful accent, and I thought, “They can’t fault me on that one.” I was a big fan of “Seinfeld” since season three, and my episode was in season seven, so I had four years, at that point, of watching “Seinfeld.” I knew the characters. I knew how Jerry, George, Elaine, and Kramer would probably affect a guy called the Soup Nazi. It was so descriptive, the name, so I just worked on that. I was almost completely right on most of it except I thought Kramer would be like his worst nightmare, whereas instead, in the brilliant script by Spike Feresten, he actually had Kramer his only friend which I thought, in the end, was hilarious. So I just worked on it. I called a friend of mine who’s a stand-up comedian, a guy named Tom Ayers, and I just was saying “Wow, I’ve got this audition for ‘Seinfeld’.” He said, “If they don’t have anything on paper tomorrow, what are you gonna do, what are you gonna say?” I just started ad-libbing things. I said, in dealing with George, I’d probably have some kind of a cart or something maybe on the street in New York, and George would probably come up, and he’d probably try to get something for nothing. I would probably say something to him like, “You, small fry, get to the end of my line or no soup!” And Tom said, “That’s great, man, that’s great, I love that no soup thing. It actually has a ring to it. If they do have something written, throw that in anyway.” I didn’t need to because when I got there the next morning, three of the six total scenes waiting there for me, and no soup for you was the third line in. So we had actually both thought of the same line, although Spike didn’t so much dream it up as much as heard it because that’s what the real guy that he based the character on in New York, Al Yeganeh, would say to people. ANDELMAN: I’ll come back to Al in a moment. So obviously you got the job, you auditioned, you got the job. What do you recall about being on the set and playing the character? Was it all laid out? Was it like a Neil Simon moment where every word, everything was laid out, or did it happen a little more improvisationally? THOMAS: Well, no. I stuck with whatever was written in the script, almost. I did ad-lib one word which has become a little bit famous actually, but it was almost accidental. But the script would change a little bit every day, anyway, because that’s how sitcoms work. No matter how funny you are around the table-read on the first day, and I’ve never understood this, but then again I’m not a sitcom writer or producer. The next day, it’s changed. And even the stuff you thought was really funny is different. On “Seinfeld,” if you’ve watched any of those special features about Larry David, and Jerry, even though they didn’t write the original script, they did a lot of the rewrites to make it fit more and more into “Seinfeld” and to Jerry’s mind -- or mostly Larry’s mind -- because this is before he took a break. But I pretty well stuck to the script. Larry Thomas as "The Soup Nazi": I was actually very nervous, to tell you the truth, because it wasn’t until after I went to the callback for the audition, which was yet another audition, that I found out that there weren’t just three scenes, there were six. And when a guest character has six scenes, he’s pretty much the guest character of the episode, which I didn’t expect. And it was really interesting because in the callback, I walked in, and the first time I just read for a casting associate named Brian Myers, but when I went back, I went to read for Jerry and Larry David, and Andy Ackerman, and Spike, who wrote it, and some of the other writers were there like Peter Mehlman because they were now producers and so forth. And I think George Shapiro, who is Jerry’s manager and also one of the executive producers of the show, I think he was there. He was Andy Kaufman’s manager. Danny DeVito plays him in that movie Man on the Moon. ANDELMAN: Right. THOMAS: So he was there. There were a lot of guys there, and I went in, and it was a little late, so I actually just barely cleared the top of the stairs when the casting director grabbed me, Marc Hirschfeld, and dragged me into the room and just handed me this stack of paper. We went through the first three scenes that I had already read, which had changed a little bit. But Jerry Seinfeld was laughing his head off so loudly that that’s all I could hear. I had to actually compete vocally to override his incessant laughter, which was great, but then when I got to the end of the third scene, I realized that I still had an equally thick stack of paper in my hand, which were the next three scenes which I had never seen. Rather than say, “Oh I’m sorry, I haven’t seen these yet, may I take a moment and take a look at these,” I just felt like you’ve got Jerry Seinfeld cracking up! Another great thing that happened which you hope for in auditions for characters like that is I never spoke in my own voice. So at this moment, nobody in the room even knows I don’t speak like that, and I recalled advice from a great, great old actress who is deceased now, Sheree North. She told me “When you go into an audition and you’re playing a character, don’t ever let them know who you really are. Let them believe you are that character, because they don’t have the imagination to make the adjustment once you’ve come in and go, ‘Hi, how ya doin’,’ and then launch into the evil killer. So it was going so well, and I hadn’t said a word. Nobody knew that I didn’t really talk like this, so I just launched into the next three scenes absolutely stone-cold, picking the words up off the paper as I went. I just made that decision. Anyway, cut back to the set. The part turned out to be a lot bigger than I thought it was, and I was nervous. There were some really good character actors in that week who had smaller parts than I did. Yul Vazquez, who played the gay armoire thief with the Cuban accent, and John Paragon, who played the other armoire thief, who was Paul Reubens’ writing partner for a really long time -- and he was in “Pee Wee’s Playhouse” and did specials with Paul Reubens on TV and stuff -- so I knew these guys, and I was going “Wow.” Not to mention all the Seinfeld people themselves. So I tried to stick really verbatim to the script, not make any mistakes, be Mister Perfect, except for one line that Spike had written where Elaine does the Al Pacino impression, and I answer her with, “No soup for you! Come back.” The way he had written it was, “Come back in one year!” but I’m just flying with this accent. I’d been told when I do accents that, one producer said, “You really play the accent, and it becomes a character of itself.” It’s music to me, doing different accents. So I’m flying through this accent, and somehow, “Come back in one year!” just didn’t fit. So I said, “Come back, one year!” and everybody on the set just fell and started laughing. It was the first rehearsal. I don’t know whether it was Andy Ackerman or Larry David or someone who said, “Keep that.” So it became part of the lexicon because half the time when I sign autographs and stuff, people ask me if I’ll write, “Come back, one year!” So it’s almost hard to write grammatically. ANDELMAN: Your ears and your eyes see it differently, hear it differently. THOMAS: That was my single ad-lib. Other than that, everything was exactly how Spike wrote it. And then Larry David had a couple of adjustments to my scenes after the audience left the night we shot it. The mind of Larry David, it never turned off. He was always adjusting. ANDELMAN: Now, as funny as Seinfeld and David and the producers thought it was, there was someone there who didn’t think this was one of their better episodes, right? THOMAS: Right. Oh, my God! Who later came back to haunt me again, actually. Michael Richards hated this script so much that he spent the entire working week, it’s usually four days of rehearsal or actually kind of five days of rehearsal, and on the fifth day, you shoot it that night before the audience, but they cut off a day this week because it was in October during the Jewish holidays. And so we only did four days and shot it on the fourth night, but all four days, he was just bending anyone’s ear that would hear him on how terrible a script this was. Jerry Seinfeld and the Soup Nazi -- actor Larry Thomas -- reunited years after the show ended for a TV commercial. I don’t know who I felt more sorry for, me or Spike. Not only was I on “Seinfeld” for the first time, but it was my first really major television guest spot after 15, 18 years of trying to get one. And so I had to listen to it. Spike, of course, went with his first script for “Seinfeld,” so he had to listen to it. It was just basically Andy Ackerman and Larry David and Jerry trying to assuage Michael Richards all week, “Don’t worry about it, don’t worry about it.” Every time he had to do a scene, whether it was like the scene where he gets the armoire stolen and then Elaine doesn’t get his soup and he gets really upset about it, he kept stopping in the middle of the rehearsal going, “This doesn’t make any sense to me. Why am I so upset? I lost a major piece of furniture here, and I didn’t get a cup of soup, why am I so upset?” Andy Ackerman would have to keep saying, “But that’s the joke, Michael, the soup is that good.” And Michael said, “See, that’s what’s wrong with this episode. It’s an episode that doesn’t make any sense. It’s not based in reality.” He was really actually very careful about his reality even though he watched the show through all the nine seasons. He had the most non-sensical reality of all. But I guess from what I’ve heard, he used to have to be talked into a lot of it. And, in this particular one, he just really had to be talked into it, and then he actually came up to me a few times and would say, “Why is your character so mean? I don’t understand it.” I would be going like I got cast, alright? I’ve already done that part of this job. ANDELMAN: It’s a job, Michael. It’s keeping me in acting class a little longer. THOMAS: Yeah. My audition explained the way I’m playing it. I don’t need to change it, and I don’t really need to explain it to anybody. ANDELMAN: Now, you said that you had contact with him again later? There was another issue? THOMAS: Well, not really. I never met him again. I did during the finale briefly. I had him sign my Soup Nazi script, and he was very nice. But what I meant was in November 2006, when season seven came out, Sony had a major publicity tour planned for me in New York and Toronto to make appearances and do radio interviews and television shows to promote season seven. That’s the same day that the news broke about the problem he had at the Laugh Factory in L.A. ANDELMAN: Right. LARRY THOMAS audio excerpt: In order to get the Middle Eastern accent, the first thing I did was I went home and took the videotape for Lawrence of Arabia, and I put it in, and I just worked up an impression of Omar Sharif. He has such a beautiful accent, and I thought, “They can’t fault me on that one.”  THOMAS: So, bit by bit, everywhere I went, every interview got cancelled because nobody wanted to promote “Seinfeld” that day. That was the day that it actually came out in the stores. The story that I just told you about Michael, I really don’t tell very often because I don’t want to put him in a bad light. He is an artist, and what he did with Kramer was pure genius. I still am amazed to this day, if you look at the development of the character through the show, it was comic genius. And so I don’t have anything against him at all, but I’m afraid people will take that story out of context and think he was a bad guy. I don’t think he was. I think it was just part of his genius that he questioned everything. ANDELMAN: Larry, did you do a commentary for the season seven DVD? THOMAS: Yeah. There’s a little bit of it on there. We sat there for two hours. They used a little bit of it, but I really love the bit they used. Out of everything we talked about, I love the bit they used because I had told a story about sitting in the bleachers watching the Jerry living room scene develop. The most rehearsal time is always spent in Jerry’s living room because, if you watch any episode, those are really the longest scenes. Everything sort of develops and is rehashed and talked about there, and then they go out and flashback or show it to you. But I would sit there in the bleachers, and we didn’t rehearse the Soup Nazi stuff until the last day anyway because they had to build the soup kitchen, but I would just sit there watching. A wonderful actor named Thom Barry who was Elaine’s building superintendent, sat there with me, and we would just watch these guys rehearse and, as actors, say, “Is this Eden, or what? This is like paradise.” These four incredibly talented funny people take a really good script, have a really great director like Andy Ackerman, and they just get to spend each day hashing through it, working on it, and it was just so fabulous to watch. One particular day, they were in Jerry’s living room. It was a scene in this episode where George and Elaine had decided to confront Jerry about how obnoxious his relationship was with Schmoopie, who was played by Ali Wentworth, who is now married to George Stephanopoulos, oddly enough, just to throw that in there. But they were about to confront him, and Julia Louis-Dreyfus, just off the cuff, just said, “You know what, Andy, wouldn’t it be funny if just as George is sort of preparing to confront Jerry, I sort of got up and walked around the back of the couch and went to the front door, and just as George is about to go, “Isn’t that right Elaine?” the door slams, and I’m gone.” And Andy just, he was so relaxed, he’s just such a great director, he goes, “Yeah, try it.” And for me, I’ve done so much theater, and this is very much like theater, and I’m just going, “Oh my, wow,” and she does it, she just tries it, and Andy goes yeah, “That works. Let’s work it up, and we’ll do it for Larry,” because Larry David would have the last word on everything. And so they did. Tom and I just got to sit there and watch with our jaws open, what paradise that was, and they did it, and it’s in the episode. It’s one of the really funny moments. ANDELMAN: Now, Larry, after the episode aired, what’s the first sign you had that your life has changed forever? THOMAS: Um, I think later that night, I got a couple of calls from the East Coast, because I live on the West Coast, and I got a couple of calls from the East Coast saying, “Are you watching the news?” And I said, “Why?” They said, “They keep airing scenes of you or a scene of you from the ‘Seinfeld’ that aired tonight, and they’re comparing you to some real soup vendor in New York!” I didn’t even know, at that point, there was a guy. I think I had been told on the set that it was based on somebody, but I didn’t know to what extent. I’d never seen him or heard of him, and so I turned on the news, and sure enough, in every news report, every late news report, they would be airing this comparison between me and this guy. There was a still of me from the show and a still of him, and then they would show my scene, and that continued for the rest of the weekend, all through the weekend. So I had had a feeling at that point that this wasn’t just any episode of “Seinfeld,” but I don’t think I realized till years later just what place it would take in the sort of lexicon of what “Seinfeld” did to our society. At Christmas, when I hear people talking about re-gifting, and you go to a party, and they’re talking about double-dipping, and you have to stop and say, wow, that show had such an effect. So, yeah, I kind of began to realize that having played this character was going to change my career. ANDELMAN: You actually met Al Yeganeh, the inspiration for the Soup Nazi, right? THOMAS: Yeah. The funny thing is I never got to meet Al before any time I played the character. I played him the first time without ever having seen or heard Al, and then I did the second time as well, which was in the finale, which was in 1998. Mine was in 1995. In 1999, I was in New York, and I got contacted by “Extra” and “Inside Edition,” and they wanted to have me go with them to his stand, and they were gonna interview him and introduce him to me and see how he’d react. So I did, and he was a very interesting character, Al. He really does get to raving and ranting quite a bit, especially if you bring up Jerry Seinfeld. ANDELMAN: Which, of course, no one did. THOMAS: He hates Jerry. He equates the name Jerry Seinfeld with being called the Soup Nazi and every bad thing about it where he really doesn’t equate anybody else with it. He doesn’t know the entertainment business, so he doesn’t realize that long before that episode, that was his nickname by the Letterman writers, was the Soup Nazi, and he was already called that. So Jerry’s to blame for everything. So he ranted and raved about Jerry a little bit, and then when they said, “This is the actor that played the character that was supposed to be you on the TV show, what do you have to say to him?” He said something like, “He’s an actor” or “He’s a good actor maybe, but he’s not a chef. He does not make soup. He does not make soup like I do,” or something like that. They said, “Would you shake hands with him?” and he said, “Yeah, of course,” and stuck out his hand, and I shook his hand, which I thought was really interesting. But unfortunately, the two shows never aired any of that because they felt like it wasn’t newsworthy that we shook hands. They felt like it only would have been newsworthy if we started screaming at each other. You’re a journalist, and you gotta cringe when you realize that journalism has come to that. Years later, we were doing “The Odd Couple” in New York in 2002, and I went up to his place again and stuck my head into his little kitchen and re-introduced myself, and we actually had a conversation that time, and he, once again, complimented me on my work. He said he had seen one of the scenes on the “Oprah” show or something, and he thought I was funny. So we talked, and he actually gave me soup, which was delicious, by the way. I have to say that his seafood bisque was knee-buckling. It was really good. So yeah, I haven’t seen him since then, but I may be one of the few people in the world that has had a really good experience with Al Yeganeh. ANDELMAN: Larry, actors on long-running TV series often fear, and rightly so, being forever labeled by a character. You achieved video immortality in just one episode. And I might add that most people think you’re actually on more than one episode, the finale aside. Is it a pro or a con that you did this? THOMAS: I’d have to say it’s a pro for me, but the con part of it is not what you’d think. The pro part of it is that, number one, at that point in my career, after 15 or 18 years of trying to get acting work and not being able to interest anybody in the world of big-time, what we call big-time film, TV, after that, everyone wanted to see me. Mike Myers wanted me to do a cameo in the first Austin Powers movie. It was a little bit limiting what they wanted me to audition for, mostly guys with dialects and kind of crazy, funny guys. But to be honest, I was suddenly auditioning for major television and built up quite a resume of guest spots on major TV shows, so I can’t assume that I would have gotten there anyway without that because it launched me like a shot in the arm from that one episode. I guess the con part of it, and I still get this to this day, is that if you’re Jason or you’re Julia or Michael, then yes, your career is seriously affected by nine seasons of playing this character. The problem with them is that the public doesn’t want to accept them as any other character since they loved them so much as that character. But at least they had the benefit of nine years of really good pay to put money in the bank and to buy nice houses. They’re major stars, so if they want to command a TV movie or lend their name to a good script or a low-budget movie or whatever, they’ve got carte blanche in those areas. There’s a lot they have going for them even though you want to feel sorry for them that their careers are kind of halted. But I don’t have that benefit. I only did one episode. The pay was $2,600, and of course, after taxes and commissions and what have you, I was $50 shy of paying my mortgage that month with that check. People think the residuals must be amazing, but what they don’t realize is residuals are salary-contingent, which means whoever was making the most money in that episode gets most of the residuals, and it wasn’t me. So my residuals, even for the DVD sales, has always been like not even gas money. In the end, I guess the con part of it is people treat me like I spent my career on that one part sometimes. I’ve actually gotten nasty letters from fans. I get a lot of autograph requests, and I have to say to people sometimes, “I can’t afford the postage so send me a self-addressed stamped envelope, and I’ll sign one of my headshots and send it to you.” Also, I make part of my living, other than new acting work, selling a Soup Nazi photo that I sign that Castle Rock and I agreed that I could take this one picture to be mine, because they wouldn’t let me use anything that they owned that was taken during the show. So I had this one photo commissioned of me in character, they okayed it, and on my Web site and eBay and at autograph shows, I sell that photo that I sign and autograph soup ladles that people can really get a kick out of. And so, sometimes I will say to a fan that’s saying, “Hey, can I have a free picture of you as the Soup Nazi?” “Well, I sell those.” And sometimes I’ll get a really nasty letter back that says, “What did you do with your millions of dollars? I can’t believe you’re a millionaire, and you want…” Of course, I was never a millionaire. I got less for doing that episode than most of the people that are yelling at me get once a month for their job. ANDELMAN: You did an episode of “Scrubs” that kind of plays into this. That was an accidental appearance. Can you tell us a little about that? THOMAS: I met the “Scrubs” writers. I met Bill Lawrence in the hallway of where their writers’ conference room was, and he said, “Come in and meet the writers,” and he’s dragging me into the writers’ room and introduced me. And one of the writers said, “Say the soup thing!” and I just yelled, “No soup for you!” And all the writers were stopped in the tracks of whatever they were doing, and one of the guys said, “You don’t mind that?” And I said, “I say it twenty times a day on the lean days. Everyone wants to hear that, and I’m yelling it into the phone all the time and into people’s cell phones that stop me on the street.” They said, “Oh, wow.” The next day, they called my manager and said, “We wrote a scene for Larry where J.D. is trying to get him to say, ‘No soup for you!’ and he won’t” and all that stuff. So I got to shoot this great scene on “Scrubs” with Tara Reid and Zach Braff, and it was just all based on that. ANDELMAN: And Tara Reid thought this was just going to remake your whole career, right? THOMAS: Yeah. If anyone’s ever seen the episode, basically, what happens is J.D. says, “Aren’t you the Soup Nazi from ‘Seinfeld’?” And I say, “No.” And he goes, “Come on, say the soup thing!” And I say, “No.” Originally, what we shot was different. Originally, he said, “Aren’t you the Soup Nazi from ‘Seinfeld’?” And I say, “No, I’m actually a classically-trained actor who has played many other roles, and it’s a little shallow to pigeonhole a guy in one TV guest spot he did over eight years ago, don’t ya think?” And then J.D. says, “Come on, say the soup thing! I go, “No.” Actually, there was this speech saying, “Yes, I’m the actor but whatever.” And all through that day after we shot that, like over lunch and whatever, Tara Reid kept saying to me, “I think this is gonna totally change your career. I think once this episode airs, and they see you saying that speech, they’re gonna realize that you are a better actor than that” and whatever. But, unfortunately for me -- and this is the life of an actor -- somewhere in editing, they decided to change the meaning of the scene from, “No, I’m not only the Soup Nazi,” to “No, I’m not him.” And so they had to cut that speech in order to get that meaning which is, “Aren’t you the Soup Nazi from ‘Seinfeld’?” “No.” “Say the soup thing!” “No.” And then later in the scene, J.D. says, “Oh, he is so the Soup Nazi,” and he tricks me into saying it. And you have to live with that stuff. You just have to. I remember when I went to the screening of Austin Powers, and Jay Roach, who directed it, came up to me. My scene wasn’t very long, but I had one really funny line that we both loved, which was when Robert Wagner and his X-ray eye patch had 17, and he wants to hit, and I’m the blackjack dealer. I say, “You have 17, sir.” And he’s already looked through the deck, and he sees that the next card is a four, but I don’t know that, so I say, “You have 17, sir,” and then I had this line where I said, “The book says not to.” And Jay and I both really liked that line that Mike Myers wrote, and I guess somewhere in editing, once again, Jay had to decide that the dealer shouldn’t have any ridiculous dialogue. But what’s funny about the scene is that this dealer is like a real solid Las Vegas dealer, and Austin Powers is absolutely ridiculous. So he came up to me before the screening, and he put his arm around me, and he took me into a corner, and he goes, “Listen man, I gotta warn ya about something.” And I said, “What?” And he goes, “I had to cut our favorite line because it made you funny, as well. I needed a straight man in that scene because Austin Powers is this ridiculous thing in reality, and I had to make you reality.” I said, “Oh, well, whatever.” ANDELMAN: Now, it’s interesting that as sort of typecast as the Soup Nazi made you, your new movie coming out, Postal, which I think comes out in September, you play another character that people will equate to immediately. Can you tell us a little about that? THOMAS: Another notorious character? I am hoping, really hoping, that this one doesn’t typecast me. I wouldn’t mind being remembered for my performance in Postal, but I don’t want to be typecast as this guy. I, actually, in Postal, I play Osama bin Laden. But I have to qualify that by saying Postal is an extreme political and social comedy. And my Osama in this is very different from what your image of Osama bin Laden is, which is part of the comedy of Postal. It flips on its ear every idea we have of what we see politically and socially in both mostly the United States and the world. So my Osama is comedically different from the scary Osama that we know. But yeah, it’s interesting that I didn’t go through one day of shooting in four weeks on this movie and not have somebody, whether it was a driver or my make-up person or the costumer or somebody, say to me, “Aren’t you worried that your life is going to be in danger when this movie gets released?” And it’s like, “Yeah, now that you mention it, yes I am.” ANDELMAN: How many actors can say that they played a Nazi and the leader of Al Qaeda in one career? THOMAS: I know -- and a Jewish actor. ANDELMAN: Oh, I didn’t realize that. Are you Jewish? Order from Amazon.com by clicking on the DVD above! THOMAS: Yeah. I’m a Brooklyn Jew from Borough Park, Brooklyn. And my mother laughed her head off. You mentioned something about “Arrested Development” earlier. Not only have I played a Nazi, Osama, not a real Nazi but a person called a Nazi, Osama, but in “Arrested Development,” I was a Saddam Hussein look-a-like in Iraq. So I’ve hit ‘em all, really. I don’t think there’s anything much left that you can hit being Jewish. Watch the Trailer for Postal! ANDELMAN: Now, who else is in Postal? There’s a lot of familiar faces in this movie. THOMAS: It’s really gonna be character-driven. Dave Foley plays one of the lead characters in it. J.K. Simmons, who was J. Jonah Jameson in the Spider-Man movies, he’s in it. Verne Troyer, who was Mini-Me in the Austin Powers movies, he’s in it. David Huddleston, who has a really rich career from all the Mel Brooks movies like Blazing Saddles and many, many movies, he’s in it. Seymour Cassel has had a great career, he’s in it. A lot of well-known character faces you’ll see in Postal. The lead is played by an actor named Zack Ward who, although you might not recognize him as a grown-up, but Zack was in the movie A Christmas Story which is everybody’s favorite Christmas movie these days. He was the bully "Scut Farkus" who had yellow eyes, that was Zack when he was a kid, and he’s the young leading man in the movie.although what I hear from Zack, his career is taking off like a shotgun right now, so you might be seeing Zack in other things even before Postal, at this point. ANDELMAN: I think he also did a couple episodes of “Deadwood.” THOMAS: Yeah. I first met Zack about two years ago just sort of coincidentally. Actually, when I got cast in Postal and shot in Canada, when I went up there, waiting for me in my hotel room was a script, and in the script was a cast list, and I opened it up, and the first thing I see is “Dude,” Zack Ward. And I thought, oh, that’s funny. How odd is that that I know Zack. So I called him, and I just said, “Hey, man, we’re in the same movie!” And so yeah, things have been really cooking for him, which is great. Order Seinfeld: Season 7 from Amazon.com Kicking Through the Ashes: My Life As A Stand-up in the 1980s Comedy Boom by Ritch Shydner. Order your copy today by clicking on the book cover above!     The Party Authority in New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware and Maryland!

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  • 01:04:08

    Matt Inglot On Lifestyle Design

    · Sales Funnel Mastery: Business Growth | Conversions | Sales | Online Marketing

    In this fantastic episode, I interview Matt Inglot about one of my favorite topics; lifestyle design. Far too many entrepreneurs get trapped by their businesses and sacrifice their health, family and happiness in order to "make it". I don't believe this is necessary. In this episode, we'll dig deep into building a lifestyle YOU want to live and making your business fit what you want, rather than simply hoping for the best.   Resources Mentioned * Tiltedpixel.com * FreelanceTransformation.com * http://www.freelancetransformation.com/salesfunnelmastery Can I Help Grow Your Business? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at support@JeremyReeves.com and let's chat. Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey everyone, this is Jeremy Reeves, welcome back to another episode of the sales funnel mastery podcast, and today I have someone special on the line, his name is Matt Inglot, and I figure you are gonna find this pretty entertaining and pretty informative if you want to work less and enjoy your life more. I know I’m kind of in a stage right now where I am going a little bit nuts because I’m about to take some time off, but in general, you want to work a little bit less, enjoy your life more, have more of a lifestyle, you know rather than just kind of being stuck in the business all day long and I think you are gonna really enjoy this episode. Matt is the owner and founder of Tiltedpixel.com which is a web agency that primarily helps [inaudible 00:05:16] companies to basically convert visitors into customers and he will talk more about that in a sec. He is also the owner of FreelanceTransformation.com and basically they are really good resource for freelancers service professionals to build amazing lifestyles around their business versus you know just being kind of stuck in your business and you are just, you know, doing the daily grind every day. So Matt, how are you? Matt Inglot: I am doing well Jeremy and it’s great to be on your show. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, thanks for coming on. Matt Inglot: Absolutely. Jeremy Reeves: So before we get into everything that we are gonna talk about today, take a second to expand on your 2 websites just so people have a good understanding whether or not you can help them, you know, kind of [inaudible 00:06:01] a little bit. Matt Inglot: Sure, well I think [inaudible 00:06:03] but FreelanceTransformation.com kind of hits the nail on the head of what I’m all about. So I have a web agency called tiltedpixel and that’s something that I have build over the past 10 years. In fact, we just hit the 10-year mark back in September and that is a very long journey where originally I had an office, I had employees and I basically had this weird and all too common perception of business which is that you are successful if you have a big company. So the more people that work for you, the more offices that you have, the more wheels are turning, the more successful you are and I originally built my company off of that model, but the end result was that I was working 80-hour work weeks, I was frankly miserable. I found that I was paying out most of our money to overhead versus actually getting to keep some at the end of the day and I had basically created this monster that I had to keep feeding instead of building a business that actually allowed me to live the life that I want to live and eventually I had a breaking point and said, okay, enough is enough. So, back in 2011 I got rid of the office, I gradually converted everybody to contract and now it’s a very overhead-light business were both of our expenses are directly correlated to our projects. I work a heck of lot less than the 80 hours. I work less than 40 hours in fact and that has given me a lot of time to create freelancetransformation which is basically helping other people dig themselves out of that all too common hole of basically owning a freelancing business that booms your life and try to get into something that actually gives you kind of a spectacular lifestyle that [inaudible 00:07:54] that’s probably why you started in the first place. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I think most entrepreneurs regardless if you are in -- like kind of service industry or you sell products, I mean, whatever it is you sell. I think most of us do it because -- I mean, first all, I think every entrepreneur loves like the challenge of it, there is all that, but it’s also to -- I think most people wanna do it because they want more freedom and more income and all those kind of things and then you start building it like you commonly hear, you know, people have like a 1000 employees and they work all day, they are stress all day and that kind of thing and it kind of just transforms into that. So it’s kind of cool that you were there and you got out of that. I think most people get trapped in that kind of vortex and never or able to actually get out of it. So it’s kind of cool to hear somebody that was there and then got out and you kind of get back to what you wanna do which is pretty cool. Matt Inglot: Yeah, thank goodness because a lot of people do not get out of it, get out of that and it’s very telling if you talk to somebody who is just starting out on their own especially if they wanna become a freelancer or even if like another type of entrepreneur [inaudible 00:09:04] that you will always hear is I wanna be my own boss, I wanna have the freedom to do things I wanna do [inaudible 00:09:10] less of dreams and then you talk to them 2 years later and they’re basically stuck exactly where I found myself or they -- you know, they have none of those things, they just have an 80-hour work week. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there is a lot of different things that we can talk about. I guess, let’s start with how do you like kind of -- how do you make that switch actually, that’s a good place to start. How do you go from like, say you are in a point now where it’s you and you have a bunch of employees and they are kind of like running your life and your clients and customers are running your life and it’s really -- you are not even in control of your own life. How do you start to kind of transition out of that, is it by improving your workflow, is it improving, you know, maybe doing like an 80/20 on your customers and clients and only working with those that you are spending the least time with making the most income or -- is there any like kind of good place to start that transition? Matt Inglot: Yeah, definitely. So it’s very easy and very difficult all at the same time. So I started for a place of breakdown basically. Sometimes, you know that is kind of what has to happen, kind of wake you up. So at that point, I mean my business wasn’t doing that great financially because, again, the high overhead, the feast or famine cycle and I wasn’t that great mentally which was the bigger problem. Again, I was overworked. I was burned out. If you never suffered burned out, I mean it’s one of the worst things because you will wake up and you know you got a day ahead of you and then you will work for half an hour and then suddenly you are exhausted, that can be the end of your day, which is obviously a problem when you are trying to run a business and that is something all entrepreneurs have to watch out for. Ideally, you don’t start -- you don’t wait until you have a break down like that, but certainly maybe the motivator for a lot of entrepreneurs to finally change things. So in my case, the easy part was the mechanics. The hard part was making the decision because I mean it was freaking scary right, you have this office and I had invested 20 grand just a year and a half before that [inaudible 00:11:25] walking away from that office [inaudible 00:11:30]walking away from that 20 grand it also meant getting someone else to take over when I leave possibly taking on loss on that. What would I tell to my clients, what would I tell to my employees, all of these like fears and doubts in my head, but when I actually did make that tough decision, it was actually turned out to be very easy. So I did -- I did do an 80/20 analysis basically what you described and I basically decided to rebuild my entire business model and do that hard thinking that I have been putting off for so long. So I looked at the projects that we were doing and I realized that sure enough 80/20 rule, typical, 80% of our profits [inaudible 00:12:10] were coming from 20% of our clients and those clients had [inaudible 00:12:15] characteristics that the other 80% did not. So at that point I realized that I was investing a ton of money into a ton of overhead to start with 80% of clients that were basically breakeven at best. They help pay for the overhead, but the overhead was necessary in order to have them in the first place so it’s kind of why are we spinning the wheels. So the 80/20 was the key, honestly was the key, I talked to my landlord, I let him know what’s up. I found someone else to take over to lead, luckily, I had a great network of [inaudible 00:12:50] so I reached out to a number of people and someone knew someone that was looking for an office and we basically just change the name of the lease and it was done. I told my clients that we are gonna changing our business model. I was worried everybody would leave but in fact nobody left, nobody was really ticked off. A couple of people were a little worried [inaudible 00:13:10] being like you are going under or something but I reassured them and in the end like several months later life was completely different, and I could have done the exact same thing a year and a half ago, I could have done it 3 years ago, I just did because I thought that I had to operate my business this way and unfortunately it did take a bit of a break down to change that but it turns out making these changes are actually very easy once you actually commit to doing it. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, what do you think -- because there is -- I mean there is a million things that everybody does like -- on daily basis that kind of thing, I mean -- did you in terms of what you looked at because I’m sure at some point you had to look at your workflow like you get up and it’s like okay what am I doing today, what am I doing tomorrow, this week, or this month. What was some of the things that just didn’t -- that you were able to get rid of once you really simplified things -- I mean that is basically what you did. You just simplified the business. So what were some of the things that you just -- were able to just -- kind of not have to do once you got your employees from, you know, employees to contracts and you started working with less clients with better clients and that kind of thing you know -- where they certain -- I am trying to think of a good name for them, but you know, everybody has those tasks that they have to get done, you know, the entrepreneur, [inaudible 00:14:34] should not be doing them that’s more things that should be outsourced to people like assistance and project managers and other employees but most entrepreneurs that are not quite there yet. They are doing all these different things that they should not be doing, but they kind of have to do because they do not have the revenue whatever to pay for somebody to do it. How did you kind of go from doing all that stuff to just getting rid of it or outsourcing it and being able to focus on [inaudible 00:15:04] did the highest leverage activities? Matt Inglot: Absolutely, so I think the key in everything you just said is getting rid of it and I’m burrowing this from Tim Ferriss from the fourhourworkweek because he has got the same model of -- or maybe getting things done or maybe both of them -- [inaudible 00:15:21] great books, it’s Eliminate, Automate or [inaudible 00:15:28] in that order and that is critical and I think that is fourhourworkweek where you should be trying to think about your business in terms of what tasks I can delegate, that the last step, that if you can’t get rid of it. What can you get rid of altogether in the first place for automate. In my case, focusing on the profitable clients and getting rid of the rest was absolute key because that eliminated a lot of things. It eliminated a ton of low return on investment sales conversations. Originally, we are selling an amount of $5,000 websites [inaudible 00:16:04] company size selling $5,000 websites is not the answer for that unless it’s fully automated. So we were doing a lot of those and the problem is I get into these discussions because somewhere in my head I had the idea that I was the storekeeper so a customer comes up to you they want help, therefore, you have to help them, and I mean that’s kind of true if you run a retail business but if you are doing any sort of consulting you have to be a lot of [inaudible 00:16:34] than that. So now when people approaches, I screened them very carefully and I always start with -- I always start with what are the reasons to not take this first and on, and after, you know -- I haven’t been able to come up with any notes that is when I started thinking okay, how can we work together, how can we run this first and over. So by default is to refer someone elsewhere not to try to win them as a client and that is just dramatically changed to how I spend my time because I was not spending time trying to sell people that I should have be taken on as clients and consequently that also cut down a ton of my project management workload because I was not trying to manage projects that had marginal profitability and the more clients you have to manage, the [inaudible 00:17:23] more of your time. So it was really a process of elimination and as soon as I did that a lot of my problems frankly went away. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, and I love that. I completely forgot -- I remember reading that now, in one of the books because I have read both of those books too about the automated delegate and I have completely forgot about that because I’m kind of in that phase now where I am kind of -- elimination phase and even the same thing raising my minimum fees and all that kind of stuff. Even this year I think I went -- I think my minimum, I changed it to my $5,000 I think it was [inaudible 00:18:00] but I have been considering going up to $10,000. It is so much -- I mean it’s just -- it does not make sense to -- one of the things you are talking about that really struck me and I hope everybody really heard was that, the more projects you take on, the more projects you have to manage it exponentially gets worse because -- what happens of that -- that is almost like a productivity tip. It’s the whole thing of -- I forgot who [inaudible 00:18:32] was done but like how it takes like 20 minutes to switch tasks, you know what I mean and that is why even some of my writers and my employees and stuff I am always training them that don’t start writing emails and write for an hour and then go to a sales page and then go back to an upsell and then go back to this other project. It’s like, you know, the whole day should be focused on one thing. If you finish that then take a break don’t like go right for the next thing because you are not going to anywhere. You might as well just take a break go get some tea, whatever you wanna do and then come back and then start on a next thing but it’s -- I mean it’s so crazy how applicable that is. When you set up your week it’s so important to know exactly what’s in your week and exactly what’s in each day of your week. I can tell you right now exactly what I’m doing every single day of this week almost of the hour. This week is a little bit different because I’m like a little bit insane this week, it’s very abnormal for me. Normally I’m not this crazy but it’s only because I’m taking the next 2 weeks off and I’m also in the process of hiring 2 new people and I’m overbooked on client work. So it’s kind of like one of those perfect storms, you know. This week is a little bit different but if everybody didn’t really -- if that didn’t sink in, I really hoped that it does because you should really -- it really just comes back to 80/20. That concept is so powerful and again it doesn’t even matter if you’re running a service business, product business I mean there are things that you are doing that number 1 you shouldn’t be doing and you shouldn’t be switching task to task, I love that, I love that. It’s brilliant. Matt Inglot: Definitely [inaudible 00:20:24] $20,000 website project is probably gonna take me a 3rd of my time to do everything I need to want it including sales and project management versus $4,000 or $5,000 projects. So think about that 3 or 4 times the time commitment to generate the same amount of revenue, it is absolutely crazy. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah and even, you know, with projects, let’s just say 5 versus 20, even if you are not the one doing it which really, you know, I’m really starting to [inaudible 00:20:56] you shouldn’t be the one doing it like if you sell websites, you shouldn’t be actually building the websites. You should be building the vision, you should be building the systems to actually build the website and like all those kind of things, the vision from the company and like all that. A lot of people including myself like I put a lot of time when I first started -- this is the part that I’m personally good at. I am really good at starting projects, strategizing them, getting to move off the ground but then once they’re in motion, I have learned to kind of let it go and then just come in little by little, you know, not do the whole thing, not do the [inaudible 00:21:37] horrible at the end. That is why I have people on the team that help me get that part done because I might -- most entrepreneurs you are really good at starting things, you innovators, you like to change things and the whole shiny object things. So you have to -- kind of embrace that and build for me, build a team around that but if you are putting -- let’s just say that it takes you 5 hours total of your time and then your team handles the rest of it. If you are spending 5 hours doing a $5,000 project that’s a $1,000 an hour for like each hour that you put in, but if you put in 5 hours that same time which typically, it’s really not that much more for bigger projects. You might strategize a little bit more whatever but it’s not four times the amount more, it might be like 25% more, whatever it is then you are making $4,000 an hour for that and I think that is a really valuable lesson that the people should learn is when you are really focused on your best clients, your [inaudible 00:22:42] way up so either, you can work more or work the same and make a lot more money or you can cut your time in half and so you will make the same amount of money. Matt Inglot: Absolutely and definitely [inaudible 00:22:57] on the ladder. I long ago realized after all of my problems and everything and all the stress I caused myself trying to be one of the most entrepreneurs that you know so called hustle and working themselves to death. I realized that, I really have a breaking point around like [inaudible 00:23:17] around 6 to 8 hours in a day and that’s really all I could comfortably do on a healthy long-term basis. So for me, it’s rarely about how can I make more money versus how can I make more -- how can I get enough dollars per hour so I can then go do other stuff versus okay I’m making X hundred dollars an hour you know, let’s try to fill up 80 hours a week so that I can get rich. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people are like that. I have always look at my business kind of the same way like okay let’s just -- you have your goal, let’s just say whatever it is, just say a quarter million dollars that you wanna make personal right, and it’s like, instead of saying okay, I’m just kind of keep working until I hit that, you will say, okay, the end goal is $250 grand, how do I do that within the hours of whatever, for me it’s 6 to 3 that is like my hours every day. For other people, it might be 9 to 5, for other people it might be 2 in the afternoon until 10 at night, whatever it is, it might be 9 o’clock in the morning until 11 o’clock in the morning, then you will say okay, how do I only work for 2 hours but still make $250 grand and then you tried to figure that out but I think it’s so important to do that and I kind of love that way of thinking rather than just how do I make X dollars period. It’s how do I make that in a specific amount of time so you are not killing yourself and you are not killing your creativity especially because a lot of like the people you help are creative. How did you -- when you started dwindling your hours down and you went from 80 down to, you know, you got it down to 70 and 60 and 40 and now you are under 40. How did that affect your -- just like your own role, the way that you think, you know your mental processes and your creative process and your clarity and that kind of thing. Did you see a big shift in the amount and the quantity and quality of your ideas and how you relate it and react it with your clients and that kind of thing. Matt Inglot: Hugely. Absolutely hugely and you know, just a disclaimer it wasn’t a nice, easy, straight road where [inaudible 00:25:39] from 80 to 70 to 60. After I got rid of the office, things improved greatly then I made a couple other mistakes along the way but the net result is for the past few years, few things have happened what I went from just getting sick at the [inaudible 00:26:00] to really loving my job because I get to work with the absolute best clients. It is very difficult to work with me in terms of actually getting accepted with your project. You have to meet various specific criteria which for me means I get to help the kind of people that I wanna help and that allow me to use my best ideas because of not constantly overwhelmed I have a ton of freedom in how I run my business and how I run my personal life. So for example, [inaudible 00:26:35] put on a conference and he announced it relatively last minute and so I looked at the calendar [inaudible 00:26:43] it was actually another conference that was put on even sooner. So that was one example where I looked at my calendar and was able to say, Okay, I think I will do this conference even though it’s only a few months notice and then there was another one kind of our retreat that I knew about 3 weeks in advance and I just looked at my calendar wiped out a few things and I was able to go to this retreat. You know, how many people can book a trip on 3 weeks’ notice for -- many people it’s like okay, I got to get the time off work and we can go to Mexico 6 months or 12 months from now. Whereas for me, I could be very spontaneous or just if I don’t feel like working today I don’t feel that great I can go do something else. So it’s not just amount of hours work in a day it’s the amount of time flexibility that you have, what you haven’t filled up your calendar like crazy and yeah that absolutely creates the time of freedom. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, did it take you a while when you started getting to the point where you could, you have the flexibility in your schedule, did it take you awhile to allow yourself to take that time? Matt Inglot: Oh, hugely. I mean it’s still an ongoing issue today. It’s very difficult to not feel guilty when it’s like 1 p.m. in the afternoon and you already accomplished the one big task you wanted to do that day and that is where, I mean I have other things that keeps me busy now like freelancetransformation [inaudible 00:28:20] probably gonna make some money but right now it’s a free podcast, free resources. I have invested a ton of money into it, I mean, you know that is something that is generating an immediate return on investment, but I’m able to do it because of the time freedom or I have other hobbies like woodworking. I spend a lot of time in the wood shop. So it’s not just about having the free time, but I think having clear purpose of what to replace it with because otherwise you’re like [inaudible 00:28:53] okay, what now? Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and you are always trying to look to like fill that point. Matt Inglot: [inaudible 00:29:01] track your emails if [inaudible 00:29:03] or you will give yourself a task that frankly don’t need to be done just to fill the time. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, just stand up and get the hell off the computer. It’s funny I actually, I kind of get lucky -- kind of bad way but last summer, my dad past away last November, last summer -- aggressive cancer so we kind of knew that last summer, the summer of 2014 was gonna be our last summer to play golf together because that was one of the things of me and him always did, we play golf together and that kind of thing. So I kind of fell into that, you know what I mean, like -- I have always struggled too, you know finished a project and it’s -- like you said 1 o’clock and you know that there is nothing else like on your to do list but you kind of just try to fill that void and so I actually, was almost forced into taking days off without feeling guilty like -- If that happened to me I just call my dad and say, let’s do golfing. Thankfully, it stuck with me, since then I am able to do that, I will be done by -- and not that your -- I mean my to-do-list is always huge but sometimes I do a to-do-list for every week and I have everything list on just say there is 10 things. If I finished it, you know Friday morning or something, I will take Friday off and the weekend off because you know it’s done and you don’t have to do that everybody [inaudible 00:30:47] such a rush versus just, you know enjoying that you have a really productive week and you probably did a lot more than everybody else and that’s the reason I feel like you should kind of reward yourself for that instead of feeling guilty about it. Take a day off it’s not gonna -- it’s gonna do nothing but help. Matt Inglot: Absolutely, and the thing is you touch on something very [inaudible 00:31:09] unfortunately sometimes life just gives us a kick in the ass and forces us to rethink our priorities so I’m very sorry that your dad passed away and obviously that kind of forced you to rethink your priorities and make time for those golfing sessions but obviously, we don’t wanna wait for the bad stuff to happen in order to force us to change our ways. So one thing that worked really well for me as part of this process of transitioning away from workaholic to someone with a life was to take a longer trip. So I went to Poland then Ukraine for 2 months and that really forced me to reevaluate my entire business because I actually took that time off. I check email once every 2 weeks. I put my brother in charge basically forced everything to become a process, forced myself to not be involved in everything and that was absolutely transformational, one because you know, I haven’t had 2 months off since I was a little kid in summer vacation and two it really forced me to reevaluate how my entire business [inaudible 00:32:20] and I think there is something special about travel there because if you decide to take kind of so called staycation, you’re there, you’re available online it’s very easy to get fall back into work. When you’re travelling especially with a giant time zone difference where internet connection is not always even an option to you, it actually forces you to do things right rather than half-assed. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. It’s very, very true. Do you have any kids or wife or anything like that? Matt Inglot: I have a wife. No kids yet but we do have 2 cats that we basically [inaudible 00:32:56] yes in fact like right before we started recording this interview I had to turn out Netflix for my cat because he likes [inaudible 00:33:05] and stuff. That’s what keeps him from like bugging me during the podcaster. Jeremy Reeves: That’s so funny. That’s funny. I do a lot of like this, you know, the staycations and all that and I have gotten good at that because that’s -- I also have a wife and a 2 and a 4-year-old so that’s like it’s a lot of times it’s just -- it’s less stressful, you know, than actually going on vacation. We went to Martha’s Vineyard, I forgot if it was this past summer or [inaudible 00:33:35] I think it was in 2014. It was like halfway through and like, “Oh my God, I can’t wait to go home” because it’s like -- it’s just you know -- bundling them off and you take them to the beach or whatever, you come back and they are all sandy and they are screaming and -- so I’m in that like of kind of bad zone right now or just, doing more of the staycations. So, I like -- at least, it’s hard when you are on here and most of the stuff -- the way our office is set up or my office is -- you go up in the first floor and then, there is all the typical stuff in the first floor and then our bedrooms are all in the second floor and our basement is all redone, we finished all that and my office is down here and next to my office is the kids play room and then next to my office on the other side, it’s kind of a big square. On the other side is an entertainment room, so I have a treadmill in there. I have a playstation, a tv, a couch, all that kind of stuff and so a lot of times, if I watch movies I’m in there, if I go and play playstation I’m in there, if I read a lot of times I come down because there is an awesome recliner chair that I love down here, so I kind of just sit down here and read. It’s hard like when you’re doing those staycations. I have to come through this room to get to the entertainment room where I’m gonna relax and it’s like -- you kind of like, you walk in, you see the computer and you [inaudible 00:35:03] pause and like stare at it and then you’ll have to force yourself to keep going but it’s hard to really get away, you know what I mean, like you’re still kind of tethered to it. Even if you are not checking email and stuff you see the laptop on the counter, you see the desktop in the office and you kind of just like -- forms out like that quick little connection and then you started thinking about business again and all that kind of stuff. I’m in the process now of learning doing more day trips and that kind of thing and just learning to travel with kids. It’s just something I’m not good at. I have a lot of friends, I have buddy who he has a little girl like, I mean they travel all over and they fly, they go to Mexico like all these different things and I’m like how do you do that, I haven’t been able to figure it out yet. Matt Inglot: And some people are great at that, not being a parent I can’t really speak to them. One suggestion would be as an alternative to staycation at home, I mean travel does not have to be travel, travel it could be a renting a cottage for a week or two or a month. Jeremy Reeves: That’s true, yeah just local. Matt Inglot: I lived in Croatia, so [inaudible 00:36:13] this is kind of a bigger trip but I lived in Croatia for a month and we stay in one place and we just rock climb every morning. It was awesome. So you don’t have to go all the way to Europe to do that. You can just, you know like I said, rent a cottage, move the family there for a month and just forcing yourself out of that regular environment is very, very life changing. Jeremy Reeves: I might have to try that, that might go in one of my goals for next year, is to do like a month away from the house, that’s interesting, I like that idea. Matt Inglot: [inaudible 00:36:46] I recommend it. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. So going back to off the ramp. Is there anything like -- how do you -- what would you recommend with structuring your time, is there a certain kind of time structure or work, you know workflow or work structure that kind of thing that you do like is there you know certain routine to have everyday or certain like set of things that have to get done every week, month or day or whatever or any kind of systems that you have to keep you from kind of straying back to where you were before and keep you on track? Matt Inglot: Yes, there is a few things that are sacred to me when we kind of [inaudible 00:37:27] earlier which is the idea of having one thing to do per day so just like you told your team to focus on either the upsell page or either the sales page but not like trying to deal everything at once. So I normally have one thing that I am gonna do today that’s gonna move me forward and that takes top priority. So obviously, there is email, so there is gonna be fires that come up that you have to put out, meeting and stuff like that but none of those things count. You also make a time for doing exactly one thing has actually [inaudible 00:38:01] when we started making those to-do-list we all know it’s gonna get done just the one thing and make sure everyday has the time [inaudible 00:38:12] to actually accomplish it so part of it is taking control of your time. For me the way I deal with is making sure that all my meetings get booked through a scheduling service so I used [inaudible 00:38:22] there is a bunch of good programs out there but basically the idea is that someone wants to meet with you, you send them a calendar link and they have to pick for one of the available times and it’s magic because when they see your calendar, they are not gonna come back and say, can you do it at this time when clearly you’re booked that time but the [inaudible 00:38:44] lets you set what time to make yourself available, how many meetings you have per day, all of that good stuff. So you can very quickly boxed up your calendar to make sure that for example you don’t get tripped into a 9 a.m. meeting. I do not like those -- I don’t like having 5 meetings in a day and this way it’s all automated [inaudible 00:39:07] so I never like let go of my willpower and let people walk because you know, like your clients says you know mornings work best for me so you try to be a people pleaser so you’re like locate your morning and be like okay I can do 9 a.m. or as you know, as soon as I am off that [inaudible 00:39:23] deeply regret it. Now it’s all automated that’s off the table. So that way I have lots of time in my day that I know we are not gonna get filled up with meetings and other stuff and I know I am gonna have time for that one thing. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah and I do the same thing. I have scheduled once and I think that [inaudible 00:39:43] really similar but you can do -- I do 11, 11:30 and then from 1 to 3, that is like my daily kind of thing and then Fridays I don’t do anything after -- I think 11 is the last one, because Friday is typically the day that if I’m gonna just take it off and not work that’s typically the day. So I actually, I like to just keep it open, I mean, usually the average [inaudible 00:40:08] but if I just don’t feel like it you know, sometimes I just don’t. Matt Inglot: [inaudible 00:40:16] tremendous freedom to that especially because the big secret is after around 11 a.m. no emails that [inaudible 00:40:23] inbox matter. Like they can wait until Monday because, you know, people don’t necessarily expect the response after that time [inaudible 00:40:31] but it’s, you know very understandable if you don’t respond until Monday. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, that is why I like that. I’m gonna have to kind of investigate that a little bit because just thinking about it it’s very true I never really had that insight before but I can kind of rearrange a couple of things just based on that. I’m gonna sit here and be thinking about it while we are talking. I really like that. I’m gonna have to look into that and kind of look and see when people are emailing but that is a big one for me actually. So how do you do -- is there anything -- do you do certain things on certain days, like do you -- for example like Mondays are dedicated to building systems and Tuesdays are dedicated to marketing or like, do you have anything like that, like how do you -- how do you make your schedule? When you sit down, whatever day that you do schedule for the week, do you have any kind of like actual like structure of doing that, any kind of process or is it kind of just come up based on what’s going on in the business. Matt Inglot: For me it’s very fluid and there is probably things I can improve there but one thing I do try to do is make an either a Tiltedpixel day or a freelancetransformation day. It is the same thing of our contact switching. So for example with my podcast I have several Tuesdays and Thursdays available for recording podcast interviews and if you want to be a guest on my podcast I send you the appropriate scheduling link and those are the only times you will see and that way when I’m doing podcasting I am batching that, I am doing 3 episodes in a day let’s say and then I have my [inaudible 00:42:13] episodes versus letting people schedule episodes whenever because I don’t wanna be like halfway through writing a proposal for a client and suddenly I have to podcast, I mean it’s a completely different mindset for those things, so it goes back to batching to being clear about the type of task that you are working on each day and not trying to contact switch between them. I probably should do something like [inaudible 00:42:41] 80/20 review, it’s something I haven’t been diligent enough on, but you know, you just got me thinking about that, so [inaudible 00:42:49]. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, yeah and just to give you a little context on how I do it. I usually do -- have you ever heard of strategic coach? Matt Inglot: Yes. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, so I’m in that program and you know you have the free days in there like the days off essentially and then you have basically your other 2 days are buffer days and focus days so buffer days are the things like delegating and building systems and checking email, like dealing with clients and that kind of thing and then focus days are essentially anything that like brings -- is gonna bring money into the company. So you can be doing marketing and doing sales calls or following up with existing clients and that kind of thing. So essentially something that’s going to, you know, like I said bring actual revenue in the short term like in the next 30 days into the business. So with me, I typically do it sometimes it changes, it kind of depends. I’m still in the process, there is always testing and tweaking, but typically, a typical week for me is I do Monday, Wednesday, Friday are buffer days and then Tuesday and Thursday are focus days. I have noticed that splitting it up like that -- it’s a whole, what was the word that you -- the contact switching? I like that. I like that phrase. It’s that whole thing, so like Monday is, if I know that I have 3 new projects that we just started I will take, instead of doing like a little bit each day or you know if you started in the morning and then do another one later in the afternoon or whatever it’s -- I batched it like that. So it’s like okay project 1, here is everything, here is -- we are setting up the whole thing get on calls with the employees, explain what it is, explain what we are going to do, you know that kind of thing and then batch it and that is all done and then Tuesday comes and then it’s like a whole new -- you know [inaudible 00:44:45] marketing or maybe it’s getting [inaudible 00:44:46] strategizing the project, you know whatever it is, but it’s totally different and then Wednesday comes and you know, so I like to switch back and forth like that but it’s just a good way, it keeps you -- since I have been doing that my productivity has just, I mean it’s gone through the absolute roof just because of that, you know the batching like that. Matt Inglot: I think that’s huge and I wanna add something because I think that’s a very good system and I think what’s gonna happen is a lot of people especially [inaudible 00:45:13] running a service-based businesses are gonna listen to what you just said or what I just said and they’re gonna say, well that can’t possibly applied to me because I’m always running around and dealing with client issues basically on an hourly basis on a single day, and so to get to that point of being able to do something like what you just described is you also have to change your project management approach to be way more proactive because I felt, and this again from my own experience but also talking to a lot of people that [inaudible 00:45:45] agencies or freelancers of some kind and the problem is they always take this reactive project management approach where a client, a piece of client feedback will come back or a design will come back or there is something wrong with the client’s website and suddenly it dropped everything and you work [inaudible 00:46:03]. Jeremy Reeves: I have never done that. Matt Inglot: Yeah, so you were always like -- you’re the one playing catch up constantly whereas one of the big switches I trained myself to be and working with less clients help make that change is now I’m very proactive. I know [inaudible 00:46:21] single project is at and I already know when I expect stuff and I already know what I can expect to revisit that project. I do not like randomly dive into each project everyday to try [inaudible 00:46:34] project management, it makes no sense unless there is like a genuine emergency. Genuine emergencies are few [inaudible 00:46:39]. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, they really are. You know what, a lot of it comes down to fear, you know. Fear that the client is gonna get mad, fear that this things gonna happen, that thing is gonna happen, and it really 99% of the “reasons” that we do things are not actual reasons, you know it kind of like that -- I forgot what it is like 95% of everything that you fear in your life has never even happens and then there is like whatever 3% that it happens but it’s less than you know less than you thought it was gonna be and then like 2% that it actually happens, I boxed it but whatever that phrase is or that quote. Yeah, I mean it’s the same thing with clients you know, I started the thing with my client on boarding process when clients come in, I’m starting to build more systems and really explain how it works with clients and they [inaudible 00:47:38] it makes you sound so much more professional. When you say like okay Mondays we do this, Wednesdays we do this, I check email this time and this time, you know if we have to get on a phone, we schedule it this way or whatever. Clients do not care about that it’s like wow this person actually is legit you know they actually running it like a real business, not just like, you know, they are not like some fat slob sitting in their underwear and their parents basement, you know what I mean. Matt Inglot: That is so huge [inaudible 00:48:09] because that’s what it comes down to -- when you have a client that feels [inaudible 00:48:13] to you like they’re calling you all the time, they’re emailing you all the time. I mean very few people are actually genuinely bad or evil. The problem is usually with you, and the problem is you haven’t give in your client any direction on how you work, how they can expect the project to progress and therefore you know, they feel like they kind of have to take the [inaudible 00:48:36] if you haven’t done that whereas compared that to like a really good service provider [inaudible 00:48:41] like going to the dentist. A great dentist will explain everything that is about to happen and then you kind of relax and know what is going on whereas a bad one just gonna start doing stuff to your teeth. You know which one you want to [inaudible 00:48:57]. If you are the one that is proactive and make the client feel like you are in charge and that they can just relax and go with the flow they are not gonna become the horror client. Jeremy Reeves: Yep, yep. This is actually -- I actually just had a client call may be an hour and a half before we got on the phone today and we went through, we are about mid project right now and I am taking -- like I’m working the rest of this week and then like kind of the next 2 weeks I won’t really be here. You know, last week I said, hey let’s [inaudible 00:49:29] real quick let me just give you an update on everything what to expect, what’s done, how we are doing with everything, you know what to expect from the rest and we just went through the project and it took [inaudible 00:49:42] but we are doing a bunch of strategy for the rest of the project, but normally it wouldn’t take that long but it was just -- at the end of the call, it was -- basically, there are 3 people on their team and at the end of the call, like everybody was so relieved, there is no more anxiety because for a client it’s very, you know you are paying people a lot of money. For these, I won’t say the number but it’s in the 5 figure so it’s like, it’s not a small amount of money and when you’re just handing it to somebody, you know it’s like, you send it and you’re like, Oh God -- you know what’s gonna happen now. So a lot of -- from what I know, like a lot of freelancers don’t really think about that it’s just like, oh I’m getting the money so I’m happy, but they don’t really think about well how does my client feel that they just [inaudible 00:50:27] you know, are they -- why are they nervous, what are they anxious about, what are they waiting on, if I’m not telling them this it’s gonna make them nervous or anxious or whatever it is and just doing that, just having that like kind of either beginning, mid or end or all 3 of them, you know, things like that like a quick phone call, it just -- it relieves so much anxiety and make everything so much more smooth and that is something I just learned recently but it is amazing. Matt Inglot: A 100% it’s not cool that they just kind of -- you know get the contract and then disappear for a month, you could be working on the project diligently, client has no idea. So [inaudible 00:51:10] client followup strategy if you are just looking for a quick takeaway on how to implement this and everything you said is like 110% I agree with. One thing you can do is make sure that if you have an email of that client that [inaudible 00:51:25] email them. [inaudible 00:51:27] progress report, it’s gonna take you 5 to 10 minutes to type up and it’s gonna do wonders for your relationship and every time you send a deliverable to a client always tell them what the next steps are like I’ve always like -- if were in step 3 and I have just sent them the deliverables for step 3, I reiterate what steps 4, 5 and 6 are for them. So they have always kind of know where they are on the project road map because you can’t expect the client to know or remember the stuff. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you know, if you’re a client listening to this and I have several clients listening to this, you will be seeing that coming out because I love that idea. That’s brilliant, yeah. For any freelancers out there by the way, you don’t rely on your memory. I actually have a thing when [inaudible 00:52:11] if you don’t talk them during the week, send like a weekly update. I actually have a recurring thing in my iCalendar that sends me an email every Friday at 2 o’clock and [inaudible 00:52:22] clients updates and then -- you know, don’t rely on your own memory because we are all you know we are all kind of [inaudible 00:52:30] we are entrepreneurs, we have a lot of things going on and even if you don’t like it, I mean your human, you know were not AI robots. Make sure you remind yourself and that’s one of the things I implement a couple months ago like kind of a weekly reminders like that and that’s you know, clients appreciate it, they really do. Matt Inglot: And I did the same thing by the way like the calendar reminder key and again if you are thinking well, I don’t have time for that, that sounds nice, well yes you do have time for that because what’s gonna happen within the month and I promise you this, is you actually gonna find yourself on less phone calls with the client especially less and prompted phone calls, you’re gonna be fielding less questions from them because you’re gonna have taken bang the [inaudible 00:53:13] control in that relationship and that means the client is not gonna feel like they’re gonna contact you every day for an update. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah and even -- we have been talking about all the benefits from the freelancer, but well I mean, I guess this is too, but think about the experience that you are putting them through, and think about you know if anybody has ever hired somebody for any it doesn’t really matter it is. You know, 95% of the time that you hire a service provider it’s that thing, it’s like you send the money and then the next time you hear from them the project is done. It’s not very -- it’s not a good experience. Imagine, you know, you being that client and you’re getting updates, you’re getting told exactly what’s happening, exactly what’s going to happen and they’re just making you feel like, you know, number 1 you know that they’re actually thinking about you which is a big thing itself but [inaudible 00:54:06] you go through the process, everything comes out as expected and you know, this is all assuming that you actually do a good work which is, I mean, [inaudible 00:54:12] be assumed. The whole process from the moment that they send you money the first time until the end of the project, they are like, wow I can’t, you know this is like -- this is great, I don’t have to worry about this guy because he is gonna tell me what’s going on. He is gonna ask me questions that I would have, you know been having to ask him. He is gonna like kind of [inaudible 00:54:32] and then it gets to the end of the project and guess what’s gonna happen, you know number 1 guess -- a lot of service providers they -- or a lot of people hiring service providers they kind of like they both -- they will test 3, 4, or 5 different service providers for whatever it is like -- they get you to design their project or their website this time, the next time they get somebody else, next time they get somebody else. They are looking for somebody to stick with. So guess what’s gonna happen, they’re gonna stick with you because they know they pay you money and everything else is taken care of. You know, everything, the whole process, you’re gonna make it beautiful for them, they are not gonna have to worry about you and when the project is done everything is gonna be, you know, exactly as expected because you’re staying in touch with them, you’re making sure that if you are sending like kind of a partial deliverables or whatever like, they’re getting look at it’s like it’s agreed upon, keep continuing or whatever the case is and then guess what’s gonna happen? They’re gonna tell their friends because they are so, you know, they love working with you so much. So I mean there’re so many benefits to you know to this that is just -- it’s amazing. Matt Inglot: And you said it so well but I just wanna add to that. So a lot of people that especially when they start of freelancing or just kind of never transitioned to a higher level of thinking they’re very technically oriented and the crazy [inaudible 00:56:00] is you can do everything technically correct and so you do all the design stuff right or you do all the programming stuff right, you can be a complete wiz, you could knock out the project, give it to your client 2 months later and even though everything is technically correct, they could be pissed off as hell at you. That’s because they haven’t heard anything so even though their project is technically done and correct it was a nerve-racking risky experience to work with you and if you are that type of person they aren’t gonna work with you again and they’re definitely not gonna refer you to anyone else because getting the right project that’s [inaudible 00:56:38] I love that term. Doing right [inaudible 00:56:42] it’s everything else surrounding how you work with the client, that’s actually what’s gonna make you stand out. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I love that. And another thing to think about is I don’t know Matt if you are in a stocks at all but if you -- say you buy, you buy a stock at $10 it only takes like you know in terms of like energy, it only has to drop 50% to go down to $5. So it’s easy to drop like that but then you have to go to get back to just neutral, you have to double it so [inaudible 00:57:12] to go up 100% and it’s the same thing with clients. If you have that negative experience and they come down you have to essentially get double the momentum to get just back up to neutral, you know what I mean versus if you are doing all this stuff and they never go into that like kind of neutral zone, then it just whatever positivity -- or whatever I’m sure [inaudible 00:57:34] better phrase than that, you know what I mean. That like it just keeps increasing and so having all this from the beginning makes that happen you know, if you pissed your client of one time it’s so hard coming back from that and I have got to do that a couple of times not even because of the copy. In fact, this just actually happened fairly recently because I messed up on one of the stages and it took a lot of effort just to get back to neutral, now were back to everything and it took you know really good look at the copy that she look and she was like -- when she saw that she was just blown away by and that kind of got it back but if it wasn’t like to the point where it was so good that it didn’t [inaudible 00:58:16] it’s hard and you’re not gonna get referral, you’re not gonna get you know repeat projects and stuff like that. I mean this stuff is so important and really is like -- this is a big learning lesson for me this year really even in the second half of this year. This is one of the big things that I’ve been changing in my business because even at the beginning of this year I was making most of the mistakes that we have been talking a lot it was mostly just you know okay you get hired for a project, you deliver the project and I’ve always pretty good at like keeping in touch but not doing a lot of stuff that we have been talking about with like you know, you were saying like I was being reactive versus what was the -- how do you put that, reactive versus proactive, yeah. I have note a huge, huge, huge difference just in the overall kind of satisfaction with clients so it’s a big deal. Matt Inglot: Yeah, and probably revenue as well [inaudible 00:59:16] for everybody and by the way, most people will not tell you if they’re angry, they’re just gonna leave. So your story was actually an example of a good outcome usually what happens is they never say a word and they just leave. So to contrast the 2 approaches I have a lot of clients where we did the [inaudible 00:59:35] especially early on where everything was technically correct but those clients never grew they never asked us for more services, we never did anything more together and they just kind of eventually fell off the face of the earth and you know once their website updated they went with someone else, they did not ask us to redesign it. Whereas I have clients and again this is [inaudible 00:59:55] for you where they started look like a $10 to $20,000 website and over their lifetime they have spent more than $100,000 with us in some cases more than $150,000 with us. So try to wrap your mind around that how many $10,000 projects do you have to sell? How many clients do you have to manage to make up for screwing up one relationship that could have grown to $100,000. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, it’s kind of funny because -- a lot of times you never know which clients are gonna be clients like that, you know, I can’t even tell you how many clients where it’s like, oh, yeah you know were getting like a small funnel done and then, you know, everything goes well and then they’re like, okay, we are doing another one but it’s gonna be five times the size, you know what I mean and you never really know. A lot of times you can guess, but I have a lot of surprises in my life or even I’ve had people where I did one good project for them and they all of the sudden it’s like, oh here is the referral, here is another one, here’s three more, and it’s like it’s just, I mean you never really, you know, you never know so you have to have this system in place that put everybody through the same process, it can’t be just like a random thing based on what client you like the best. Matt Inglot: Absolutely, but hopefully you pick the clients that you like the best to begin or probably [inaudible 01:01:15] relationship 100% but you shouldn’t feel that just because someone wants to work with you that you should work [inaudible 01:01:24]. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, we have gone through all kinds of different stuff today and they were a lot of takeaways even that I personally have missed. So before we wrap up is there anything that you know if we got off the phone today and you went away and would there be anything that you were thinking in your head like, I wish I said that, you know, is there any kind of parting wisdom something that we didn’t cover or just even if we did cover, just one really big takeaway that is gonna transform somebody’s business. Matt Inglot: Definitely. So if we want to put a bow on everything that we talked about whether it’s how to take time away from your business and kind of regain control of your calendar or whether were talking about regaining control of your clients or building these clients up for from $15k to $150k, behind all that and behind growing your business to the next level, the biggest changes for me have always been mindset. So it hasn’t been oh now [inaudible 01:02:33] and now more productive or I use this you know one crazy trick that I learned [inaudible 01:02:40]that never happened. Jeremy Reeves: You mean the crazy tricks don’t work? I’m shocked. Matt Inglot: Yeah, but what really does work is mindset changes. So being open to changing the way you think about things. So for me, one of the big mindset changes was thinking about how I take on clients where I used to see myself as [inaudible 01:03:03]someone comes into the store, I got to try my hard to sell them something. Whereas now I look at every project tiltedpixel takes on as a business deal. So I consider you know what is my potential profit off this thing? What are my risks? Am I gonna like working with this person? And that’s gonna inform whether I open up the table to actually may be striking a deal together. So instead of me begging the customer to buy something it’s much more of an equal relationship. The customer, you know, they are not subservient to me, they are not superior to me we are just 2 business people that are considering a business relationship together and we both have to feel that it’s the right fit and that’s entirely a mindset thing. There is no tools, there is no tricks, there is no proposal format that will change you. It is a mindset shift. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I love that. That’s really good advice you know, I think a lot of people have the wrong mindset when it comes to the -- the whole like client relationship. It’s not, like you said, you’re not superior, they’re not superior it’s just 2 people that need each other to move forward in their own businesses, that’s really all it is and you’re kind of there show them that you’re the best chance that they have on doing that. So, I love that. Thank you for your time today, you know, for talking about everything and helping everybody even if they have -- I mean there has been a lot of things that we’ve talked about especially with like structuring time and all that kind of stuff, even if you don’t have a service business, I have kind of both -- all kinds of business owners listen to this, you know they’re freelancers, they are more of like agency owners, they are people that own physical products and information products and ecommerce source and all kind of stuff. So a lot of stuff is applicable for anybody but thanks for coming on and sharing your wisdom. If there is anybody specifically freelancers or somebody who wants a website design, tell us about your 2 businesses and what type of person you are looking for to kind of interact with each of them. Matt Inglot: Sure, absolutely. So freelancetransformation is again where freelancers can go if they want to learn how to level up their business and build an amazing lifestyle around. It’s a lot of what we’ve just been talking about today actually and what I could do for your [inaudible 01:05:29] is I will go ahead and make a bonus page just give me a few days to do this. It will be -- let’s make it www.freelancetransformation.com/salesfunnelmastery and what I’m gonna do there is I’m gonna do a few things, I’m gonna link you to some articles [inaudible 01:05:46] that basically just go more in depth into what we just talked about, and I’m gonna go ahead and I will go one further, I will make a little checklist because we touched on something which is how can you predict whether a client is gonna be good client and you brought up a good point that there is no such thing as a 100% guarantee, but that said, I do have a checklist of exactly what it is that I do look for in a client when considering whether this is someone I even want to consider writing a proposal for and if you implement that checklist it’s gonna make a big difference in the types of clients that you take on. So just visit www.freelancetransformation.com/salesfunnelmastery and all of that will be up by the time this episode comes out and the other thing is my agency, tiltedpixel and if you do want to check it out feel free, we specialized in converting visitors into customers particularly if you sell higher type of things like stuff that’s over $5000 per customer then there is a very good chance that we can help to level up your business there. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. I love it yeah, and I would highly recommend everybody to go to one of those respective websites based on what you are doing. I can tell you that I’m actually gonna start following more of what you’re doing because I have learned a lot on this and if you are a client listening to this you should be happy that I’m gonna be starting to implement a lot of the stuff that we went over which benefits you. So that’s how it [inaudible 01:07:13]. And if you are listening and you are gonna be a future client then you’ll also know the same thing, but anyway, thanks for coming on, I really appreciate it and I will talk to you soon. Matt Inglot: Jeremy, it has been a lot of fun. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, it has. Thanks.

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  • 00:52:55

    Melinda Chen on Closing High-Ticket Clients

    · Sales Funnel Mastery: Business Growth | Conversions | Sales | Online Marketing

    In today's episode we dig into the mind of Melinda Chen. Melinda is a MASTER of high-ticket selling... whether you're selling products, services, or anything else! We discuss how to get in front of your perfect target audience, how to make yourself stand out and get the attention of the "higher ups", and how to then close the deal! Plus she even critiques one of MY promotions I'm about to launch to get in front of high-level clients. Enjoy!   Resources Mentioned womenmakingbigsales.com Want To Work With Me? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com Enjoy! Transcript Jeremy Reeves: Hey everyone, this is Jeremy Reeves with another episode of the sales funnel master podcast and today I am interviewing Melinda Chen and we are going to be talking about how to kind of reach and make sales to really, really high-ticket clients and I think it is going to be a fascinating interview and you know, basically, Melinda has -- she is a founder of Women Making Big Sales so to just give you a little bit of background about her. She has 15 years of background in corporate sales, and in the past 5 years, she has actually reached 8 figures in terms of her sales track record which is unbelievably impressive. That is a lot of stuff to sell in 5 years. Now she actually helps entrepreneurs. She specializes in helping entrepreneur’s sell and get in front of hard to reach or hard to access decision makers and to find those big you know, kind of whale clients that we all want to get in front of and not only get in front of, but actually have the you know, the authority and positioning to actually make a sale to because -- we will get in to all the reasons why we should be doing that, there are about a billion all of them which we will go through, but Melinda, how are you. Melinda Chen: Yes, hi Jeremy, I am very good. Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good. Sounds good. So I did a really quick you know, intro of you, just to kind of give everybody a quick little background, but tell us a little bit about your story you know, who you are, who you help, what you do, all that kind of good stuff. Melinda Chen: Yeah. Sure. Sure. I really started selling. I go into trade show since I was age 15. I grew up in a very entrepreneurial family and my parents they have got their business. So by the time I started knowing how to speak English because I was an Asian descent, so by the time I was speaking English relatively well, my dad figured, oh perfect, she will be the perfect translator for business meetings and go into trade shows. So he take me to trade shows and I loved it. I love the energy. I love all the creativity that came with it. So that is when I decided to keep doing -- keep staying in business and keep doing sales. Then I graduated from the university. I got my first job as international sales manager and that was really my official sales job, selling educational products to agents around the world, Brazil, Korea, Europe, and I have really realized that wow, there is a logical (inaudible 2:29.4) about sales especially when you are dealing with people who has got a 20 years of experience in sales and I just graduated from university. So I was like, 22 like fresh meat to these sales agents, right. And then I started really reading lots of books about sales and I did a lot of cold calls. I did about you know, throughout my whole sales career, I have done about 5,000 cold calls. So really, just to refine those sales skills and eventually master my own art of selling and most importantly is that I really felt -- I love the challenge of getting the really hard to reach big clients and the decision makers. So right now, I help entrepreneurs reach those client and sell to big client. Jeremy Reeves: Awesome. Yeah, that is really cool. It is a very unique background. You get started really early. That is awesome. So you know, what start with because you know, everybody, anybody listening to this and I also want to say, a lot of this is going to apply most of it is going to be the most relevant to anybody in the service industry, but if you are selling any kind of product, this is also very, very, very relevant. For example, you know, I have been thinking a lot of my clients that you know, they are selling whatever, a couple $100 products, but then one of the things that I helped them with is implementing something like you know, somebody’s -- their highest sales is like just a $500. One of the fastest ways to grow your business is putting in -- I called it a freedom offer you know, because you only have to sell a couple of them to give yourself freedom. So I always look and say, okay, what can we -- can we take your highest priced even if it is a product or service whatever it is and 10 times it gives something you know, so if you are selling your highest price is $500 what can we sell for $5,000 you know and so if you are in that position or if you want to be in that position I also want to make sure that you are paying really close attention to this because what we are going to go over covers all that to. It is not just that you are in the service industry. Melinda Chen: Oh yes, definitely. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. I want to give that a really quick kind of disclaimer just so people are not saying well I am not a service provider, so therefore, you know, this is not going to be relevant to me and even if you are selling products you should be have some kind of service anyway so you know, it should be relevant to everybody. So the first thing I would like to start with is the advantages you know, what are the reasons in your mind for going after these you know, these big high-ticket clients versus going after you know, going after the lower quantity buy higher quality clients versus higher quantity and lower or you know, lower price but more clients. Melinda Chen: Yeah, I like to tell people that -- I understand if a lot of people when they started out and they want to go for that, those low hanging fruit, but you should always target big clients because especially if you have a product, and there is a lot of things about I mean it depends on whether you have online product or actual physical products, but the (inaudible 5:33.9) scale is very important especially when you have physical product, you said, oh, I am just going to sell things cheap and sell a lot of quantity, but you get to work with big clients. The cost to acquire small client is actually a lot higher than cost you acquire big clients because the cost to acquire big clients takes a lot of relation building. Yeah, it does take a lot of time to build that relationship, but they tend to be more stable. There is a lot of -- if you can shape your business the right way then you get a lot of repeat business, but if you are working with small business, a lot of times, you know, they tend to be a little bit more unstable, so depending on the clients or the business industry you are in, but you would reach a (inaudible 6:18.9) after small clients. So how do (inaudible 6:21.7) after small client. A lot of times, either you do advertising, the marketing. So you are basically giving a lot of money to Facebook, Twitter, and linkedin. They love that. I mean social medial platform, they love this you know. They love small entrepreneurs keep doing advertising with them. (inaudible 6:40.0) the cost to acquire small client proportionally actually a lot higher than getting big clients. So a lot of small clients I understand that or small entrepreneurs I understand that they might say, oh, I want to start off you know going after smaller clients, but you should always keep in mind that you have to go for big clients for you to actually make that significant freedom if we were talking about or profit because eventually you have to stop wasting your money on small clients, your money and time on small clients. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and you know, that actually comes back -- I have been talking, actually the last couple episodes. I cannot even remember off the top of my head if they are live or not. I remember recording them. I forgot if they are live or not, but one of the things that I have been talking about recently is, how much more valuable a repeat customer is, like a higher value customer, because you know, the first time you sell a product or service, you have all that cost that goes into acquiring that you know, the client or the customer and then, but then the second time, you do not have that cost you know, so all of your marketing cost is only in that first kind of you know, the acquiring of them, but not the second time or the third time or the tenth time. So you know, your profit margin is going way, way up as you work with them longer and I think bigger clients are much more in the position to you know, you are going to get not only bigger first time projects, but repeat projects because they have more going on you know what I mean. Would you agree with that? Melinda Chen: Yes, definitely. I mean we can talk more about big clients and how the psychology of big clients, but definitely you know, it is the repeatable business is one huge advantage to working with big client and they tend to have very small circle of the people they work with. So most likely you can get referrals to other big clients. So just think about your business, do you want to keep having small client and they refer you more small client or would you like to have one big client and they are happy with you and they refer you to other big clients, and you know, I tell a lot of small entrepreneurs is that if you do not do it right now, 6 months from now on or a year from now on you still be chasing after small clients. You still be working 10 hours a day trying to go after those small clients if you do not go after big clients right now. Jeremy Reeves: Definitely, definitely. So you know, what are the things like I can hear people listening to this and say, yeah, but you know, Melinda, it is really you know, it is really scary going after these big clients, you know, I am -- maybe you know, maybe they do not have the experience or they have the experience, but they do not have the confidence you know, in themselves, in the results that they produced to go after these big clients you know, so what are -- you know, how do you overcome that like, that fear you know, to going after these big clients. I remember you know, when I, I mean this is years and years ago, but when I first started going out to bigger clients you know myself, I remember having that kind of trepidation you know that nervousness of oh my God, what if one of them actually says yes, you know what I mean. How do you help your clients overcome that fear of actually kind of getting started. Melinda Chen: Yeah, well, I called it a big client muscle. I see myself a little bit like the fitness coach. What we are teaching a lot of times is, it is not necessary revolutionary, but it is like trying to get fit you know, you have a step-by-step process of how to get fit. The same thing with (inaudible 10:22.3) training is that we have a step-by-step process. So you know what to expect. You know that okay, today, we are trying to get a leads and (inaudible 10:30.5) are the few activities we are doing to get a lead and we focus on the activities themselves and also we start by doing it. So we take baby step you know, today, yes, we understand. We are not trying to call the biggest client today and then ask for a business, but we are going to (inaudible 10:48.7) with some really influential people today and that just go by talking to them, propose your value proposition and share your ideas with them. So slowly -- I think it is almost like when people step into a dark room, they do not know what to expect, they do not know what is in it, spiders or you know, mouse, whatever. People naturally get scared, but you know, if you turn on the light and just show people that you know, there is a step-by-step process and also you know, just take baby step, the fear to selling to big clients will naturally reduce, but I also like to share with you is that I being a corporate sales for 15 years and the reality is that I sell every single day and when I send an email to a client, before I send it like I am excited they have like he is so going to love it. This is a great offer why would he like it, but the moment I press that send, I am like, no, he is never going to write me back. Jeremy Reeves: I have had an exact experience. Melinda Chen: Oh, it is like you are so excited like, oh I have got great idea, he is so going to love it, but then you pressed it and there is the doubt of fear, but the reality we all have it and the difference is like I still do it, I still have that, no I said, when I (inaudible 12:08.0) to see oh, I am like, why the heck is the CEO going to reply to me, but now, I recognize it. I said, well, it is only natural. Melinda, you always have this kind of thing. You always think about it, go walk around, call your coach or call your -- the people you work with and you know that you are going to feel better 2 days from now. Just you know, let it sit and so I think that fear is only natural because it is (inaudible 12:33.6) and I am not going to sugar coat it and say listen you know, you are not going to have fear selling to big clients, the most realistic way is that you will have that fear but the difference is that you are going to now you realize that everybody has that kind of fear one way or another and it is just simply recognize it and then just let it sit and say, okay, let us wait for 2 days and let us see what happens and at the same time you know what to do in terms of the next step. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and you know what, in my career with the people that know all the things that I do, I am just kind of known as someone who sees the fear, faces the fear, and then does it anyway. My mom, every time I tell her like things that I am doing that are like you know, semi-crazy, she is always like, Jer, I do not understand how you can actually get pass the fear you know, and for me, it is kind of trained because I just always done it. I am someone who you know, I just do not care, you know what I mean. I have a very thick skin I guess, but you know, but I was not always like that. I remember starting off in my career and I mean it was nerve racking you know, it is horrible, but the more you do it and you realized, hey, things did not go so bad you know, even in the case like this, it is like you know, you are afraid of what they are going to say, how they are going to react you know, they are going to tell you that you are worthless or you know, whatever it is that you are afraid of, it never happens you know what I mean. It never does and it is just that sense of being able to feel it and do it anyway you know, and then just sit on and see what happens you know. Melinda Chen: See what happens and then you know, I think especially when approaching big clients you need to build a relationship and then the referrals, the introduction. So basically, you need to get in the circle and the fact that you know, you have already build that preparation, you have already had the preparation and you got introduced and then it is a softer contact then you know, we are not talking about just cold calling the CEO. So to really have you know, just slowly getting to this entourage it also ease up the fear of selling to this person because eventually you will start to feel that oh you know, I think I kind of know this person because I have done so much preparation trying to work with this person. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. You know what, I can tell you from personal experience that, in fact, actually this just happened today, somebody emailed me requesting to be I guess on the podcast and I can actually tell I was so impressed because she started off the conversation by, hey, I just read this value and then I read this and I love how you talked about this and this and this and I listened to a podcast, I loved how you brought up this topic and blah, blah and I could tell I mean it seemed like she (inaudible 15:35.7) 3 hours of research and I was so impressed because normally it is dear sir/madam, you know, blah, blah it is like really, you know, they get deleted instantly. So I think a lot of is just about doing research and even if I think that overcomes a lot of anxiety that you have like when even if they can tell you are a little bit nervous when you first get in touch it is like hey you know what, they actually did the research and it almost, it almost creates like sort of like a (inaudible 16:08.1) like you almost -- if somebody you know, get in touch with you and you can tell they researched you and spent a lot of their time really putting a thought and effort into whatever it is a call or an email or direct mail, whatever you are doing, you almost feel obligated to at least give them you know, a couple of minutes to hear their you know, their elevator speech. Do you agree with that? Do you think that is you know, kind of part of what happens is how people react to that. Melinda Chen: Oh yeah, definitely. I agree with that 100%. The one of the best strategy that I always used is show do not tell, and show by I mean we are constantly doing this communication, a lot of people asked me so how do you show without telling. I mean when you are emailing then you automatically telling something, but this example when you mentioned about the person trying to pitch getting to your podcast is a very good example. In fact, they are showing that they are the person who would do the hard work. They would do the research. So when approaching the client, I would tell people you know, I mean, there are a lot of different ways and process, but one of really great way to talk about it is talk about their competitor. If you know the name, the decision maker of you know, obviously, you are trying to work with this person, but you (inaudible 17:22.1) in the email conversation you not casually mention the decision maker of their direct competitor then it is showing, very quickly showing that you know that you (inaudible 17:33.6) you know that inside out of the industry. So (inaudible 17:36.4) that kind of basically doing the research, a lot of research before the call to show that you know, you have done research about this company and about this client and you understand their business priorities. That is worth a lot more than telling them oh here is my valid preposition. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I love that, I love that. Actually, we are going to talk about a campaign that I am putting together right now, it is actually on my list this week to finalize. I have like 6 giant boxes of things I am going to be sending out to people. Yeah, we will talk about that in a couple of minutes, but yeah, I mean it really goes right along and actually, I actually so -- let me bring it back to an actual thing that I did, this was, maybe 4 or 5 years ago, and there was -- yeah, I think it was about 2010 or 2011 something like that, give or take. And there was a really kind of heavy hitter in my industry that was looking for a copywriter, so my thought was, alright, this guy, I know that a lot of other copywriters are going to see this so how do I standout you know. How do I make myself so he gets my message and it is like oh my God, I have to talk to this person. So what I did was I got to know his business. I actually made him a personal video to him, it was not like, oh I made you a personal video and then it is the same thing to everybody, it was actually like, I actually address them by name. I talked about his website and it was a video. I put it on a page and then I send him a big giant like 3 foot 2 mail and then you pull that out, a big piece sheet of paper and it was like a message on there with the URL and then he went to the you know, to URL and it was a video of me talking to him. And that client ended up being worth, I think it was about $120,000 over 2ish year period. And I think you know, I remember he told me he was like I was so impressed you know, you made a video for me specifically and he actually showed his entire office and he said, guys, this is the stuff we need to be doing you know what I mean. Yeah, I agree with the you know, the more you talk about like just not sending out you know, blank you know, kind of just general messages. I mean, it is really, just a marketing principle you know. We are heading you know, in terms of personalization you know, I have so many tests that I have been doing in my clients with segmentation, personalization, and the more you can talk specifically to that person, whether it is a high value or not, the higher your sales go and I think it is especially important with you know, with these really high techie clients when you are going after you know, the really like the decision makers you know in the companies. Melinda Chen: Yeah, yeah. I think especially the decision makers and that is why there is you know, there is, right now a lot of well going back to a lot of people talking about social selling and how you -- you know, it is going to replay selling itself. I think it presents an opportunity because there are more and more people. They are trying to automate everything but if you can really prove or you can contact these big client and using a lot of personal touch and then a lot of research, I mean we are in this age that there is so much information just right out there publicly for us to grab, you get to pick up important information and show it to this big client, it is so easy to stand out because everybody is trying to automate and everybody is just trying to just do the easy way and there are a couple of you know, so many things that we can do just simply stand out. Jeremy Reeves: Definitely, definitely. So let us talk about how you actually get in front of clients, so you know, you did the research, maybe you actually you know, maybe I do not know, you make like a spreadsheet or something like that of the clients that you want to reach out to whatever your kind of prep work is, and then you did. You have your list of let us just say it is 100 people you want to reach out to or 50 or 10 or whatever it is, let us just say 50, just so it is a manageable number. So you go, you do your research on all of them and then it is time to actually get in front of them. So what do you recommend. What are some of the things that you have done either yourself or your clients or whatever to actually get in front of the client. Do you -- you know, do you send cold emails. Do you just call them. Do you do direct mail, you know, what are some of the things that you guys do. Melinda Chen: Yeah, well the first thing I like to highlight is that there are 2 different role, and today we are targeting with the entrepreneurs. I think it is very different if somebody is a sales person like a B to B sales person or you know, or just general sales person, all they have to do is sell you know, I can say, you know pick 100 names, 200 names and she was your sale target, let us call it, let us you know, use softwares, Twitter, Facebook whatever to connect with your big clients, but I think you know, with your podcast, I think we are addressing those people who are entrepreneurs and who do not have you know 7 hour a day to just sell. I mean we have other things to do you know, it is not just selling although it (inaudible 22:45.8) the most important aspect of business, but you got to do the operational side, the (inaudible 22:50.4) existing clients. So what I would recommend the first most important thing, the absolutely most important thing for an entrepreneur or solo entrepreneur is that should be very target at in terms who you want to sell and the reality is that you cannot target a 100 big clients at one time because then there is no way that you are going to provide personal -- I mean, then it is a give and take, I mean you will be able to provide some kind of personal, but it is never really that personal kind of attention to those big clients. So that is one thing I really cautioned is that do not target 100 clients. If you have like a list of 100 then try to narrow it down and then usually if you have that list, what we build is, we called it 2 x 5 formula. So the two, the first two is the prep work, the prep (inaudible 23:45.2) work as absolutely especially with the big clients, use your 100% of your energy to bind the introduction into this client. So in fact, I would recommend -- personally, I would recommend the first 1 or 2 months focus on building relationship with their entourage and then also we create you know, connection map, it is like a mind map, except it is a connection map, whose connected to whom because regardless of what industry you are in I mean I have sold around the world as I mentioned before South America, North America, Asia, Europe whatever industry (inaudible 24:19.2) different industries. Once you are talking to the big, big clients they all know each other. It is a very, very small world. So go dig into the linkedin profiles. Look to you know, first of all, obviously, the first thing is you have to make sure what target, either you are targeting you know big time speakers or you know, big buyers with certain industries then really dig into their linkedin and Twitter. See who they are connected to. Most likely is that those people they always use similar service providers. For example, you know, if you are social manager (inaudible 24:55.4) try to find who are the big PR managers they are working with, because most likely they are working with the -- I mean you are already working with some of the big clients (inaudible 25:04.7) that everybody kind of just what you know, especially big guys, they like to keep their (inaudible 25:10.8) and they like to keep working with similar people or thing, same group of people. Big clients are extremely (inaudible 25:18.3) so what I would recommend is that build that connection or relationship map. So just take the -- take linkedin and use any mind map or other kind of mind map on the website, there is one I loved and then start drafting this relationship map and figure out what kind of a (inaudible 25:39.4) always go to. Who do they should work with. The service provider (inaudible 25:44.8) always work with then start building relationship with the service provider first. If you want to focus on startup companies, incubators, is there any big name incubators in (inaudible 25:56.5) you know somehow you could provide value to and those are usually what I would really recommend is to connect with these people who are the (inaudible 26:06.8) of influence with people you want to target because the moment that you build trust with them then I mean this is what happened now when I went to get another client is they close on the people I know really well and interest you. I give them a call and say you know, here is what I am thinking you know, here is a few ideas I have for the upcoming project, what do you think and then we start talking about industry. And what do you mean by talking about industry, basically, you know, we are going to share (inaudible 26:31.7) who might be interested in this, who would this project be useful to. So this is extremely you know, extremely important thing is fill that relationship map and then start to provide you know building values. So that is it. We are back to 2-5 formula so that you would be creating at least 2 soft contact with the decision maker and then we do the 5 official contacts and why do I -- instead of saying, oh, do we cold email this decision maker or do we send a cold call or things like that. I want you to tell people try to (inaudible 27:12.4) at least 5 different contacts. So it could be a simple I mean you know, we all know this you know, simple like on Facebook or you know providing some kind of value or maybe meet with the person in the networking or bands and things like that, but the moment you build that 5 then you know that you are -- you know, your whole sales relationship is not going to rely on one simple sales phone call. Jeremy Reeves: Okay, got you. I love that. Melinda Chen: You know, so keep you know, (inaudible 27:38.8) formulate that and focus on the first they know you, like you, and then trust you and then slowly build -- you know fill that before you even talk to the person and maybe I am pessimist but I say most likely the first time you contact this person he is not going to say yes to your offer no matter how great your valued proposition is or your elevator speech is. So plan 5 different contacts so that you slowly bring the client to the final sale speech and it is a very simple way but also just simply have that plan out will ease people’s mind about selling, about you know, oh, you know, he is definitely going to say no, but you are not asking him whether he would need to (inaudible 28:24.3) have this officials sales meeting yet, you are simply saying, hey, you know, here is the quick information about me or I thought this would be interesting and that will be it. So no pressure and once you have the process you are not going to continue focus on this one specific client, but you do this with other clients and then slowly build that relationship. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, yeah, I love that. So as you are building, as you are providing these people value, you are getting to know them, they are not going to -- there is no resistance, there is no sales resistance because there is no sales you know at this point. So they are starting to trust you. They are starting to kind of understand you, you know, you are familiar to them. When and I know this is kind of a generic thing because there is no like oh you know, you do it 4 days after the first or whatever, but if like in general, when is the good time to start then transitioning from okay you know, we kind of built the relationship to you know, transitioning into the you know sales mode you know so to speak. Melinda Chen: I think when -- this happens actually this sales mode or this transitional mode, we would be planning it right at the beginning. When people are trying to figure out you know, what kind of client they wanted to focus and what their value proposition is, I always tell people it is not just the value proposition, in fact, trigger events that is a lot more important than the value proposition. I am not saying that you are not providing value. I am hoping that you are providing a legitimate value to this client because if you are not, you know, that is never going to work from my experience. You got to be providing some real benefits to big clients, but also, the trigger events. What it means that right before at the beginning is that every industry is seasonal. So you have to plan what seasonal about the industry you are targeting. My favorite example would be the product base companies, Christmas shopping season, it is a hectic season and even big clients there is always something late about their planning you know, either there are 2 PR. I have worked with PR companies that PR agent they were able to get big clients because they just simply target the fashion company that did not get into the Christmas shopping list on magazines. Jeremy Reeves: Got you, okay. Melinda Chen: So if the trigger events, what are the trigger events that really impact the industry and if you can really focus on that then when you are building (inaudible 30:57.9) like and things like that once the trigger events hit and you have already planned it ahead of time you know what are the important things, a lot of times you know, incubators you know, startup companies there is time to apply for incubating program. There is speaker, the speaker seasons. Coaches, there is always sales season. So you have to know your trigger events. So once you build that relationship now you got your benefit and you got a trigger event, then you find the people who needs help during those hectic season who are late doing the things that you can offer then it becomes a very natural we are not even selling, you are just calling you know, and say, Hey Jeremy, I know the important day is coming up and I have not seen your information, your product on any social media what is going on. Jeremy Reeves: Nice. Yeah, and I actually use that approach in a similar way, but slightly different way and that I am really good at taking what people already have and finding the holes in their marketing and then filling those holes. You know, for example, one of my clients, I reached out to him and he had like a monthly you know membership program and I just reached out to him and I said, hey, his name is Mark and I said, Hey Mark, I have never seen you know, anything on your website like trying to take people from your monthly program to a yearly. I am like you know, what would you say, what if we you know, what if I do a promotion for you and just simply taking people on your monthly you know program and offering them a yearly plan and you know, I would not charge anything and blah, blah, just be percentage of the people that upgrade you know, and it works you know, and he was like okay you know, there is no risk in it for me, you are doing all the work, I never thought of that idea and it sounds like a good idea because it was actually good timing because he need it like a patch infusion to reinvest back into his product. He is very like techie kind of thing, say he buy a whole bunch of equipment, stuff like that. You know, and we did it and it was a huge, huge success you know, he made a ton of money. I made a ton of money and it was awesome. So it is a similar thing like it was -- it was not really a seasonal thing, but it was a like a weakness I guess you know you can call it in his business you know, but yeah, I love that you know, there really is, there is a lot of -- you know, most businesses have something like that even if you know, could be seasonal, a lot of businesses are seasonal or it could be if it is not seasonal, it could be something like that where it is more of like a weakness and you just kind of fill that gap you know. Melinda Chen: Yeah, I love -- I mean there is nothing more than calling a client and say that and listen, do you know what your competitors are doing right now. You know and then that is just a very simple and again you know, it (inaudible 33:53.1) it does not feel like you are selling the person, but you know, you are really trying to first of all provide the value and have this in cycle conversation and people at this point the big clients are going to figure out that you know, you are not just trying to always repeat it your value proposition and then just go through the same thing. You are really providing insightful information about the industry they are interested in and let us face it, big clients are very competitive. They love to know what happens with their competitors, so it is a great conversation breaker. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, definitely. So let me ask you this. Have you ever tried and this goes back to my promotion that I am about to test out probably next week I would say, because I am going to finalize it this week, but then I still to do all the research and all that stuff beforehand. Have you ever tried anything with direct mail to reach out big clients? Melinda Chen: Direct mail, I have never -- I mean I have done a lot of cold calls. I have done direct mails, I do not know how many (inaudible 34:57.6) out but probably in a smallest scales, I have, I would not say I have the most success with, but yeah, I have done it. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah. So what I am doing basically is I am putting the other list a very you know, a very targeted list, I know the market really well, all that kind of stuff. I mean I could probably list off you know 30 people off on top of my head then (inaudible 35:26.1) send it out to. I got to do like 10 weeks, but basically -- yeah, yeah you know, just kind of you know, put it into our current you know, kind of marketing plan that we are doing every week. So what I am doing is I am doing a thing called lump email and I have this -- I came up with -- I bought these treasure chests right and they are like 5 inches long I do not roughly 3 inches high something like that, I like to have fun with Mark. Those are all the boxes that we got by the way, I bought 100 of them and you know so they came in like -- Melinda Chen: You must have a pretty good warehouse. Jeremy Reeves: Well, it is actually in my basement. Yeah, so there are all down there and I actually gave 1 each to each of my boys, I have 2 and a 4 year old, so they each got a treasure chest you know, and so basically, what I am doing is building a list of people in a very specific you know target audience that I have already gotten results before you know, a lot of people in that industry already know me that kind of thing and I am sending it to them. Now, my audience is going to be a little bit different than like really high like super high-end corporate you know, where there is like you know, the hierarchies like 85,000 people you know, mine are typically you know somewhere between -- yeah like between like 5 to 20 employees you know, in that range because a lot of -- you know, this industry, they do not need tons of employees to you know, to go up into like that. You know my target is mostly in 7 figure range you know, that is kind of -- even like once you hit like $10m it starts getting a little bit too high because then they are starting to get like full-time copywriters and stuff like that. So what I am doing is you send in the treasure chest you know, in the mail with a letter from me inside the chest and then there is a little lock on it with a key and everything and then we made this whole like story, awesome story and the value proposition are the you know, the offer is basically you know, instead of like, hey you know, call and let’s do a project. It is essentially like, Hey, you know, we are tying in the whole treasure chest thing to you know, you have revenue that is kind of buried beneath the sand and I am like you know, let us get on to quick 30-minute call, I ask you some questions and I will help find some of that revenue for you without mentioning like doing projects together anything like that. What do you think of that approach? Do you think I am missing anything? Do you think I should add anything else and you know, it is a little bit outside of what you normally do. Melinda Chen: Well I first of all, I do not really know your business but who are those treasure chest addressed to? Are they directly addressed to the founder or the marketing managers, the founders. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, the founders, yep. Melinda Chen: And the value you are providing you basically just asking them that you know, you would like to set up a 30-minute call with them right. Did you write any case studies or what competitive did and then what I meant is that big clients or I mean we are not talking about just corporate clients but the successful people, they are very money driven and I do not know in your letter or inside the treasure chest if you have some kind of thing to you know, you can talk about case study and just very quick you know. Did you know that after speaking with somebody and we uncovered because the whole point is about uncovering right and convert a specific amount of missing profit. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, so what I am doing, I actually guarantee them that I am going to show them how to increase by a certain amount and then also the weather itself is going to be like you know, like who I am and why I am getting in touch and all that is 2 pages and then I am going to have a another 4 pages just of case studies, just 4 like straight pages of all case studies, more for just like kind of overwhelming proof you know what I mean. Melinda Chen: I mean, obviously, they know you personally already. Are these people, they already know you? Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, they either they know me, a lot of them have probably heard of me. Most of the clients that I worked with in this industry, when they get in touch, they have heard about me from usually one of their competitors because like you said, you know, a lot of the people in the same industry know each other, they talk to each other, they masterminds together you know, that kind of thing. So they have either heard of me somewhere. A lot of them read the same blogs and podcast things like that and so they have heard me on air and so they have -- most of them will have if not all, will have at least some kind of recollection of me you know. Melinda Chen: And how do you plan out that following up. Do you plan on sending a quick email or just a -- Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and that is one question I actually did not even think of that until you were talking about linkedin before. That idea, if you heard me typing before, I was actually writing down the idea. So that was, I kind of just (inaudible 40:54.2) as you were talking was send that out and then a couple of days after I send it follow over them on linkedin and say, hey you know, I send you package a couple of days hope you got it you know, if you have any question let me know you know, whatever. I have not quite thought through the linkedin message yet, but yeah, probably on linkedin, a lot of the people I am probably already connected with you know, that kind of thing. Melinda Chen: Okay, and then do you -- I am assuming that you want to make this. So this is -- you really want to have as dramatic impact as possible right for this. I mean it would not hurt that you know, for me, I mean it is already a very unique idea, but if -- because I do not know the kind of service you will be providing, but if you really want to build that kind of expectation, I would assume that you are going to send this out to the founder. If you are sending this addressing directly to the founder, it does not hurt to really start on if who else will be involved in this decision making. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, that is a good idea. So most of them, I would say probably 90 I mean easily 90% plus of the time, when I am talking to these clients on the phone it is the founder themselves because again you know, again, it is not my kind of sweet spot is like you know, the one the $10M range you know, but it is not like a big you know, like I just did a project for $300m company, but that was a very rare you know, project. So most of them are somewhere the range between like $500,000 or like $10M or so you know and then yeah, so it is you know, it probably will go to the founder, there might be some exceptions to that like for example, the client that I got a couple of years ago that I mentioned earlier that ended up like the secretary got it but then she passed it to him you know what I mean. Melinda Chen: Well, I mean, what I would do because and you still want to a lot of them I assumed that they kind of still know you and then you want to really bring forth that like I mean the trust would probably go into the case study and the letter you are writing and especially your online presence and your website, but at the same time, you want to really bring forth that like and know you kind of factor. So it would not be a bad idea to really figure out who might being bought in this decision making. I mean, it does not mean that they will make that final decision, but for example, if they have a couple marketing people, they really work with social medial, people they work with, send a quick email, right before you send this and say by the way, I am about to send really cool stuff to so and so. Just want to let you know it is going to be pretty cool look forward to hearing from you and you know, just get people talking to make sure that it is not going to be something that is going to be dismissed or what is even more -- I mean we can talk more after the call. If you really want to get even stronger impact is that you cannot even say that and listen, I am about to (inaudible 43:53.6) it is going to be a limited time offer because I only have not much time, but I am sending this not only to you (inaudible 43:59.4) also to the competitors. That really boost your authority because you are really doing this something big. He wants people to start talking loud. Jeremy is -- he is launching his marketing campaign rather than just get it, okay, I mean it is a great idea, do not get me wrong. It is really much better idea than sending email, but if you really I mean, since you have already spent so much time you know, creating this marketing thing does not hurt to start. Also, send quick message or linkedin to anybody who might be working with them or to them just say, hey, listen, I will be sending you know largely my marketing campaign. I look forward to see how you -- you make it casual and say, hey, (inaudible 44:41.8) to everybody listen, everybody is going to get and feel free to laugh at me or you know make it you know, make it so that we still (inaudible 44:51.1) you build that like and trust. I mean you have already come out with somebody who is a bit daredevil. You said you will always love to try something new. Make sure they know you and then all of the sudden that is really personal because everybody is like I do not know what Jeremy is coming up with, but he is coming with something and we will see what it is and then most likely we (inaudible 45:11.0) Facebook or linkedin response you know, have fun with it and then you can talk business. Jeremy Reeves: Nice, yeah I like that. I like the, I think that is very good advise because it is you know, it is kind of the same thing you know, a lot of times I used things like text messaging you know for like automated text messaging. So for example you know, one of the things we do with webinars are -- let us just say that the webinar starting at I do not know at 2:00. You can send people a text message or like 130 and then it is like, Hey, quick reminder, you know, the webinar starts in half hour and that boost response rate you know because you are kind of just getting their attention and it is a similar kind of concept with that. It is different but it is you know, it is kind of similar project. I like that. I actually -- Melinda Chen: Yeah, and then I mean mostly especially if you really have to (inaudible 46:02.4) with it, you probably get a couple (inaudible 46:05.3) of you trying to fit anyway. Did you see (inaudible 46:07.1). Hopefully, you get a couple of short messages back and say (inaudible 46:13.3) and people always love to have a little bit of humor, I hope, some (inaudible 46:18.1) and then yeah. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, and especially my clients, I have a lot of fun with my Mark. I mean I you know I go out drinking with a lot of them and so I really have a lot of fun with my clients and I have actually turned down clients because I did not like their personalities. You know, -- Melinda Chen: No, I get it, I get it (inaudible 46:37.4) if you do not have the right vibe it is just never going to be a long lasting relationship. Jeremy Reeves: Definitely, definitely. I like that and I can definitely because you know, a lot of them (inaudible 46:45.3) I am going to know their business is and that kind of thing so I can make it send them a really personal message even before they get it and then they are like what the hell is he going to send me now you know. You know, I can even put it like if they have kids you know, something you know make sure you give it to your kids after you are done looking at (inaudible 46:59.9) or something like that. Melinda Chen: Yeah, exactly I mean then they really build that expectation and they might be asking their receptionist for that package of, making sure that the reception does not just burn it by (inaudible 47:12.7) or something. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. I should put that on the package, like do not open in front of your children, something like that. That message may be interpreted in different ways and -- but yeah so thanks for that. I hope everybody enjoyed -- I did that not only because I am curious myself to see how would you take your concepts because the way you approach is totally different and I always like we are talking about before the call, I always like to take different concepts and different ways of doing business and they kind of meld in together you know and I think that is really hopefully everybody got a lot out of that me and you just kind of going back and forth and brainstorming on that. I know I got a lot out of it. Melinda Chen: I have a lot of fun so, I mean I am going to try this you know, treasure chest thing not on my kids but on my clients. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. It is a really, really good kind of fun way to get in touch, get in front of people you know, it definitely gets their attention you know what I mean. Alright, so with that said, you know, is there anything else that I did not ask about you know, I feel like I let you down if I did not ask you a question you know, something that you want to make sure that people really understand you know before we hop off. Melinda Chen: I think one thing is that there is -- we are back to have this process is really for entrepreneurs and I think it is important to recognize that focus -- a lot of times theory and what we could do is one thing, but really to have your daily habit and then creating the sales routine is a lot more important than how you want to approach it. I mean it is one thing to have one interesting marketing idea, but as you know, you are going to follow up and you are going to continue following up. So I think that is a lot more important and challenging for entrepreneurs when we are managing so many things. Yeah, that is basically it and if people want to reach me, they can visit my website womenmakingbigsales.com. I do not just work with women, but I am a woman. Yeah, and they can also visit my Facebook page, Women Making Big Sales. Jeremy Reeves: Sounds good. Yeah, and I will make sure all those links are in the show notes. So yeah, if anybody is interested in reaching out to Melinda you know, to get in touch, work with her you know, kind of you know, start a relationship, then you know, just kind of click if you are listening in your phone or whatever, just look through the show notes and they will be in there. Yeah, that is it. Melinda, I really appreciate you coming on. It was a fantastic call. I know I learned a lot. I actually took a whole bunch of notes. If people heard me typing that is what I was doing. Yeah, I really appreciate it. I think it is a very -- it is a very important topic because it is something that anybody and you know, most people listening to this should be doing and if you are not, I mean, you are -- you know, I can tell you from personal experience you are missing out on a lot of money and also not even just you know, I know we have talked a lot about like the money aspect of this, but it is also stress to I mean -- yeah, I mean I do not know if you have this experience, but I know like in my business the more money somebody pays me, the less of the hassle they are you know what I mean, because it is you know, a lot of people and you know, it make sense because like if you are really struggling for money and you give somebody whatever it is, a couple thousand dollars, whatever it is and that is a lot of money to you then you are going to be really nervous and anxious about it and that is you know, I mean it is totally normal, but if you are you know, if you are a bigger client if you, you know, if you are doing you know, $50M in sales and then you ask that person for whatever it is, a $10,000 sale or $20,000 even that you know, the difference between what you are asking and their you know how much cash flow they have available so much bigger that they do not -- they trust you more you know and it is just you know, I have known in my business I mean the project show so much more (inaudible 51:32.3) you know what I mean. Melinda Chen: Yeah, they did not know what they want and there is always very clear vision of how things need to be done instead of oh, I do not know, I am thinking of changing this, oh I might change this you know, I am going to -- and then suddenly decided they are not going to work continue with this project and then you have that stress out, oh no now I have to look for another client. So you constantly chasing that to small clients and again, paying advertising money to Facebook, Twitter, and linkedin and again, they obviously still very happy about this so. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, you are making (inaudible 52:01.8) Alright well hey, I really appreciate coming on. Everybody make sure that you go to womenmakingbigsales.com again that link will be in the show notes and yeah, thanks again, we will hopefully see you soon. Melinda Chen: Thank you Jeremy. Let me know how it goes, the treasure chest, bye. Jeremy Reeves: Yeah, I will, bye.

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  • Guns Across the Border

    · POLICE Magazine - Podcasts

    // Mike Detty, a one-time POLICE contributor, talks about "Guns Across the Border," a first-hand account of his involvement in an ATF "gun walking" operation that preceded Fast & Furious. As a firearms dealer, Detty sold guns to Mexican cartel operatives at the direction of ATF special agents in Arizona. Detty says he was motivated by patriotic duty, and betrayed by the agency he worked for. Show the Guns Across the Border Podcast Transcription: Paul: Hello, this is Paul Clinton with POLICE Magazine. This is themonthly author's podcast with books by and for cops. We have a veryinteresting book this month to discuss. It's called "Guns Across theBorder: How and Why the U.S. Government Smuggled Guns into Mexico: TheInside Story". It was written by Mike Detty. In the book, Mike chronicleshis experience as a federally licensed firearms dealer in the Tucson areaand his role in these gun-walking sting operations and the flooding of gunsto Mexico. Mike has been a contributor to POLICE Magazine. He's written some great firearm reviews over the years. His business is essentially selling rifles and other guns at gun shows in Arizona. Mike, we're really pleased to have you on, and thanks for joining us to talk about the book. Mike: Thanks, Paul. It's a pleasure to join you, and thank you for having me on. Paul: Talk about this book and how it came about. You found yourself in the cross-hairs, so to speak, of a very ill-fated, eventually, federal gun operation. Talk a little bit about how you got involved in this from the beginning and how this got started. Mike: Sure. Historically, it is significant in that Operation Wide Receiver, which was the case that I brought ATF into in 2006, eventually morphed into Operation Fast and Furious, about two and a half years later. The way it started was, as you mentioned, I did gun shows for a living. I am an FFL holder, a Federal Firearms Licensee. I sell AR-15s at Arizona gun shows. I was approached by an individual who wanted to buy six AR-15 Lowers from me. The next day, he came back and he asked if I would have more sometime later in the month. I told him I had another 20 on order that I expected the next week. His answer to me was, "I'll take them all." The sheer number that he wanted, and the fact that he was paying cash, and the fact that he was a young Hispanic kid, made me suspicious right off the bat. That happened on a Sunday. Monday morning, I contacted my local ATF contact. He had me fax in the paperwork, and the he called me back later in the day and asked me if I could come down the following day and spend some time talking with him. That was really how Operation Wide Receiver began. There was a group of young men in the Phoenix area that was buying AR-15 Lowers. They were sending them to somebody in San Diego who was purchasing the top ends of the rifles, 10 inch, which of course, anything under 16 inch barrel length is illegal, but it didn't matter to them, because they were pretty mixed up in doing illegal stuff anyway. Anyhow, they would complete these firearms by pinning on a short top end, and then taking them across the border into Tijuana for the Felix Arellano Cartel. That was how Operation Wide Receiver started. It kind of went through some twists and turns, but by the time were finished a year and a half had gone by. I think we'd sold weapons to five different cartels. Paul: Before we get into the details of this, talk a little bit about where federal law enforcement was coming from and their goals in your mind, or what they said to you about these operations. They've been termed "gun-walking operations" and I guess these operations would fall under this Project Gunrunner. What was the original goal of this operation, as far as you understood? Mike: Project Gunrunner was a project to stem the flow of illegal guns into Mexico. It involved saturating the border states with more ATF agents and more funding to prevent that from happening. Operation Wide Receiver, when I first got involved and they first started looking at these characters I was selling to, and by the way, after that initial purchase, I didn't sell anything to these people without prior knowledge of ATF and without them specifically asking them to do this at their behest, to further the investigation. I just want to make that clear. It wasn't as if I did something, and then, "Oh, I'd better let them know," just so I don't get in trouble. Paul: I guess the idea is that, this has always been the case, that the drugs come from Mexico and the guns and the ammunition go to Mexico. So the ATF and the federal government was becoming more and more concerned about guns that cartel operators were purchasing here in the border states and taking to Mexico to use in this violent cartel drug war, right? Mike: That's correct. That was correct. The first meeting that I had with these ATF people here in Tucson, I was told that I would have a chance to help them take out a powerful drug cartel. I'm smart enough to know the implications of that. Paul: Yeah. That sounds good, actually. It sounds like a noble goal. Mike: Being a patriot, I was eager to help them. It just didn't turn out the way it was outlined to me. What happened to be the goal, we never came close to achieving that goal. If you read the book, I think there was something far more insidious going on than trying to take out a drug cartel. Paul: Part of, I think, at least what we've heard said publicly from the ATF, and obviously this was a huge scandal that resulted in congressional hearings, and of course the deaths of two federal agents, speaking of course of border patrol agent Brian Terry, and also ICE special agent Jamie Zapata. Guns that apparently were sold through these sting operations were found at both of those crime scenes. Mike: Correct. Paul: Right. Mike: All three of those guns were from Fast and Furious, although there is nothing that would prove any of the guns from Wide Receiver showing up at future crime scenes. We know that they've shown up at crime scenes in Mexico. Fortunately, nothing has been found here in the United States. Paul: The critique of the ATF through all this has been, why didn't you track the guns? Was there some goal early on to either attach some type a micro-tracker or microchip to the gun? Was there any effort early on by them to track these guns? Mike: No. I do mention in the book, it's been reported in mainstream press that under President Bush things were done more responsibly. They tracked the guns they were working with Mexican officials. That's hogwash. None of that's true. There was one attempt to put a tracking device in a rifle during operation receiver, and it failed miserably. It was never fielded, it was never talked about again. The other thing, what I was told from the start, was that there was ongoing cooperation with the Mexican authorities and that if they didn't interdict the guns that at some point in time, they knew where the guns were at, they were going to round them all up, or most of them. I mean, nothing is 100%. It was conveyed to me that the operation I was working was multinational, meaning that the Mexican authorities were on board with it, and that this was how they were going to take out this cartel. That just proved to never be true. The Inspector General's report that was issued last fall, it cites I think three different phone conversations during the three years I was involved with Operation Wide Receiver where they had contacted Mexican authorities, but there was never any ongoing coordination. There was no commitment by Mexican authorities to follow these guns anywhere into Mexico. In fact, none of them were ever tracked. Paul: Wow. You mentioned that there were a couple of very interesting anecdotes in the book of failed attempts by these agents to follow and/or arrest these straw purchases and the buyers who came to you to purchase these guns. Mike: Sure. In fact, there was one event, I believe it was 50 .38 Super Pistols that one of these guys bought one night. It was ATF's intention to have an air surveillance to follow these guns to the load house, sit on the load house until they were loaded up in the load truck, and then follow them to Mexico so that from the time those guns left my house, it really never left their visual surveillance until they crossed the border. That was very important to help them prove their case. In the book, I relay how this turned into a three-day surveillance. They sat outside a house for quite a while and were concerned that they actually might have missed somebody going out the back door with the guns, because the original intent was for those guns to go very quickly, and it never happened. They did stay on the house. Once they got into a car, they were able to follow them. They went down close to the border, and then on the Indian reservation, they drove in circles for three or four hours. When I asked one of the agents why somebody would do that he said, "These are experienced drug smugglers. They know what type of aircraft we use for air surveillances." In their case, they were fortunate. They had a helicopter to back up while the DTS plane went and got refueled and then came back. They were never able to do much with that information. They know the guns crossed the border, but once they crossed the border, they didn't have any idea what happened to them. Paul: Wow. Let's talk about your role in this, because it really is fascinating. Your book, I have to give you credit here, I mean, you've really written a detailed book, and you've included a lot of great details about how these went down. Talk a little bit about how some of these transactions would work. You have a business and you are able to sell firearms out of your home. Talk a little bit about how this would work, how the cartel members would purchase the guns. You would kind of set a little showroom in your living room, right? Mike: Right, yeah. Being a divorced guy, I had a living room that didn't have a stick of furniture in it, so I used that space. I had guns set up. AR-15s and semi-auto AK-47s and 30 types of pistols, and I would set them up. I wanted these guys to perceive that I had plenty of inventory, so I didn't just put one out of each one. I would put stacks and stacks of guns, and then I'd leave one out of the box for them to look at and figure out what they wanted to buy. They would usually come late at night. When they were going to do a purchase, usually they would have a plastic grocery bag full of cash. A lot of times, they didn't know how much money was in that back, because somebody at the stash house would hand them a bag and say, "Here, go buy as many guns as you can for this money." A large portion of every evening was spent just counting that cash. In fact, it was after one event where one of these people tried to burn me for $5,000, I actually went out and bought a bank- quality money-counter. The first thing we would do when they got there was, we would count the money, and then they'd know how much money they had. Paul: I love that detail in the book. A lot of these guys would just give you stacks of 5 and 10 dollar bills, and you would have to spend 45 minutes to an hour counting small bills. Right? Mike: Yeah. That was typical. There was one group out of Phoenix whose ringleader was dyslexic, I think. He would always hand me his money and have me count it. At first I thought it might be a test to see if I was being honest with him, because once I got to the certain dollar amount, I would hand him back the rest of the money. It did in fact turn out to be, either he couldn't count, or was just so severely dyslexic, he couldn't count the money himself. Paul: Talk about some of the characters. One of them I think came in wearing pink ostrich boots. Talk a little bit about who these guys were. Mike: It was kind of a happenstance. In other words, we fell into a hornet's nest while we were just looking for a honeybee. There was one particular gentleman I was doing business with. He had a cousin, a very distant cousin, in town. Her husband was in federal penitentiary for dealing dope. She would host these barbecues that she would invite other people in this trade to these barbecues. It didn't matter what cartel or what familia they were from. They were welcome guests there, but during the course of the barbecue she would tell them, "Hey, if your guys need guns, I've got a hookup for you. Here's the deal. You just pay me a commission on every gun you buy, and that'll keep me happy and I'll keep you hooked up with this guy with the guns." These people from those barbecues would accompany the original buyer. It just got crazy because there were so many people that wanted to come and buy guns. Paul: I'm sorry, so this is really your classic straw purchase, right? Mike: Yep. Paul: So they would fill out the paperwork for people who would be denied on a background check, right? Mike: Right. These were all people that legally couldn't buy because they weren't citizens. The one guy that could, he ended up doing a lot of the paperwork himself. He was actually connected with a cartel in Caborca that had been raised here in the United States and was a US citizen. He was doing a lot of the purchasing. Some of the other groups, they would bring people they knew that had clean records that would do the purchasing for them. That's where all the charges, unfortunately, I mean, it's a relatively minor charge, for Operator Wide Receiver was for straw purchasing. In other words, when they filled out the background check, they checked the box saying, "This firearm is for personal use. I'm buying this gun for myself." That turned out not to be true, and we know that because they took them across the border and sold them down there. Paul: Yeah. What types of guns did they buy? We've heard that they like these AK-47 or AK variants that had wire stocks. What kind of stuff did they buy? Mike: Those were probably the bulk of what they really wanted was the cheaper AKs. At the time, I was buying the Romanian imports. WASR was the model name. Some of them had underfolding stocks or side folding stocks or fixed stocks. At the time I want to say, I was selling them retail for under $400. That was the bulk of what they bought. Then there were some other groups that wanted to have AR-15s and they wanted to have the good quality, the best quality I could find, but that wasn't the bulk. The majority of the stuff was AK-47 rifles and pistols. Paul: Those were available fairly cheap for them, right? Like you said, you could get one for $400 or so? Mike: I was retailing them for $400, which meant that I probably made maybe $100 on that transaction. Paul: Okay. And I guess they liked these Colt .38 Supers as well? Mike: The Colt .38 Supers weren't gun for fighting. They were guns that somebody would wear to kind of show almost their rank. There was one guy that as buying these for a cartel in I think it was Magdalena. The head guy would hand them out as presentation pieces. In other words, you've done something really valuable for me, or you've taken a great risk for me, and I'm going to rewards you with this status symbol. Paul: Okay. Mike: That's how those were used, but like I said, they bought those in quantity with one guy buying 50 when he'd need from me. Paul: Yeah. You worked, really, as you describe in the book, as an undercover operative with the ATF, kind of almost dictating every step of the way, right? Mike: Yeah. Like I said before, there was nothing that I did on my own. There were very few, rare instances where somebody called me on the phone and I'd have to make a quick decision. Trying to think of what ATF would want me to do. Usually I would beg off and say, "Listen, I can't do this afternoon because I have a doctor's appointment," or something else. Everything that I did was under their direction. Paul: You tell kind of a good little anecdote here. They had you wearing a transmitter, and it sounded like the ATF Tucson office only had one transmitter, and it was kind of cutting out at times? Mike: Yeah. Its age was uncertain, its quality was not good, and it appeared to be the only one they had, because in three years of working with them, it was the same transmitter that I used night after night. Paul: Yeah. Mike: There were instances, and some of your veteran cops and shooters that are listening to this will understand. I'm in my early 50s, right, and after a lifetime of shooting, I don't hear so good. I'm one of those people that has the volume all the way up on my cellphone so that I can hear conversations clearly. Well, imagine yourself being in a room of cartel associates and having an agent call and say, "Hey, Mike, your wire's down. Turn it off and then back on again real quick." Then you look around the room to see if any of these other people in the room have heard what you just heard through your phone. I was very fortunate in that regard. Stupid things like that, looking back, were just crazy. The risk that I took and some of the risks that I was exposed to through no fault of my own. Paul: And I guess eventually they placed some cameras in your house, and they put one in a clock radio, and I guess one in a Kleenex box, right? Mike: Yeah. The clock radio is kind of a neat thing, because it would not only record, but it would transpond, I don't know if that's the right term. There was somebody sitting in a truck outside that could see it real time, but that was just one instance, and I guess that equipment was too expensive for each office to have, especially the smaller Tucson office. In other instances, they had what was called a "Hawk," which was a video and audio recorder that they could hide in a box of Kleenex. Usually, that would sit on my wet bar, where it could watch the entire living room that I was using as showroom. In addition to that, I would have a digital recorder in one of my pockets. The reason they had me do that was because the quality was so much better than what they could record with the transmitter. It was just dual redundancy, so they'd have backup to backup. Paul: Yeah. And I guess, as you mentioned, you were involved in this for three years. It sounded like when it first started it was initially only supposed to be a very short operation that you were going to be involved with. Talk a little bit about the length of time, I mean, did you become frustrated at times with this? Mike: Not really. I mean, while it was going on, it seemed to keep me really interested, and I seemed motivated my knowing that I may be part of something historical. As it turns out, it ended up I was part of something infamous rather than historical. Paul: Good word for it, yeah. Mike: I didn't have a crystal ball at that time, but I really did. I was motivated by a patriotic sense of duty, and I really had this feeling of fate and that God put me in this place in this position right now to help. I wouldn't have felt right just telling these guys I couldn't help them. Of course, from years I've written for POLICE Magazine, I'm a pro-law enforcement guy, and I never would suspect that these guys all seem like great guys, and I didn't see ever having a problem for being on the wrong end of their hire, which I eventually did end up. Paul: Yeah. Mike: It was an interesting three years, and like I said, I didn't mind doing the work for them, and I didn't mind at the time taking risk, because I thought that whatever was going to be gained from this would be so valuable to the United States and to the detriment of the various cartels that were pursuing. Paul: We'll get into the end result of this in a minute, but one thing I found very interesting was that you were very meticulous through this investigation about the notes that you took and the records, and you kept pretty good records about conversations and things you were doing and saying. Mike: Right. I kept my notes daily. I always tried to make time to write down the events of the evening along with conversation as quickly as possible after they happened, so that it would be fresh in my mind. Originally, I started doing this for two reasons. One, I always thought I might write a book, because it was kind of an extraordinary circumstance that just an ordinary guy like me got involved in. The other reason was, we were doing so many of these buys that I was afraid if I ever had to testify, I have to be certain if this event happened on this night during this buy, and so forth, so I could keep one buy separate from all the others that happened. That was my intent originally. Because I had gone and I bought my own digital recorder, every time a burned a CD of an evening's buy with the bad guys, or several phone conversations I had with the bad guys, to burn that to a CD, I had to download it to the hard-drive on my computer. When things started not looking right to me, I started recording conversations with the special agents and phone calls with the special agents. That was all on the hard-drive of my computer, along with my notes. Paul: Yeah. Mike: At one point in time, when they brought in a special prosecutor from Washington D.C. to prosecute Wide Receiver, she asked me if I'd kept any notes or a journal or anything. I said, "Yeah, I have a journal. I don't want to give it you, because there's a lot personal information in there." It was an actual journal, it wasn't just transcribes of bad guy buys. She demanded it. It was the old thing, "You know, look, we can do it the hard way or we can do it the easy way. I'll make life miserable if I don't get it," so I did give it to her. She never expected to see what was in there. It was either her or one of the special agents in Tucson sent that up to Special Agent in Charge, which was Bill Newell, in the Phoenix office. He or she ordered immediately to ATF Office in Tucson, "Don't take anymore cases from this guy. Don't talk to him, don't acknowledge him in any way." Basically, I was shut out. He knew long before me that my notes contained information that eventually was going to be very embarrassing to him. At one point in time, my computer was hacked. All the audio files that there were nights and nights and nights of purchases at my house, phone calls, and so forth, those were all corrupted. I kept them all in one folder. Every one of those files was bad. Before I got too paranoid, I went and checked some of the shorter phone conversations that I had with these bad guys. To the special agent in charge of this case, I would attach it to his Yahoo! account, because DOJ and ATF email accounts have filters on them that limit the file size, so I would have to use his personal Yahoo! account. I went back and said, maybe I can get back some of these conversations by checking those emails. Surprisingly enough, every email I had ever sent him, or every email he'd ever sent me, had been wiped clean from my computer. Paul: Wow. Mike: Now I'm in a position. I'd contacted somebody that's a very good friend who's one of our most elite military intelligence assets and told him what was going on and gave him information about my computer and my wireless system and so forth. He called me back a couple hours later and he said, "Look, Mike, you're welcome to fly out here. My guys think if they look at your box, they can figure out who got into it. But here's the rub. Let's say we find out exactly who did this to you, who do we take that to? Because I think you're going to take it to the same people who did it to you." Paul: Oh boy. Mike: "What good's it going to do to you." The fortunate thing about this, and the reason that I haven't been put in a very difficult spot was because I have an external hard-drive as a professional writer. Every few days I back up my computer. I was able to restore all those files, but whoever got into my computer and corrupted those files, they knew that this could put them in very bad light. Paul: Yeah. And during the story, you talk about, you would have conversations with these cartel operators and you'd burn a CD and just take it over and drop that over to the ATF office in Tucson, right? Mike: Right. Paul: So you were sharing some of this material with them during the course of this investigation as well, right? Mike: That was the sole purpose of recording this stuff. Paul: Yeah. Mike: By happenstance, I mean, it just happened to all be on the hard- drive on my computer. Paul: Yeah. Mike: I think that certainly kept me out of a very sticky spot with our federal government. Paul: Yeah