Episoder
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Get ready as we take a trip down memory lane…
We’ve got a bit of a different episode for you this time. We’re sad to say that Jason, our VP of Marketing, will be leaving Metadata. So we thought this would be a great opportunity to look back at Metadata’s marketing highlights, challenges, mistakes, and fun stories from behind the scenes of DGU.
Join us for a bittersweet farewell as we swap stories and sum up all the lessons we’ve learned over the past few years of Jason’s reign over the marketing team.
This podcast will be taking a pause after this episode – so watch this space for updates!
Find out:
The DGU origin story How Jason hired Mark What we learned from our time running DGU0:00 – 1:33 Intro
1:33 – 4:13 Jason’s announcement
4:13 – 5:35 How Jason found his first startup experience
5:35 – 8:16 How working at Metadata compares to his previous roles
8:16 – 12:56 The DGU podcast origin story
12:56 – 17:13 The story behind Jason hiring Mark
17:13 – 20:26 Metadata’s experiments with LinkedIn video
20:26 – 24:03 Metadata’s LinkedIn strategy
24:03 – 25:18 How Jason and Mark became the faces of Metadata
25:18 – 32:56 How Metadata dipped its toes into marketing with celebrities
32:56 – 36:31 How Metadata partnered with DGMG
36:31 – 46: 20 Top moments from the marketing team’s retreat
46:20 – 1:02:32 The not-so-great moments of marketing Metadata
1:02:32 – 1:05:42 Goodbye from Jason
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We’d all love customers to have zero objections to buying from us, but overcoming sales objections is a key part of any sale.
How we handle those objections makes all the difference between gaining a new customer and losing one.
The truth is that sales objections are nothing to be afraid of. In fact, they’re a window into potential customers’ thoughts – and those thoughts can inspire great marketing content. In this episode of DGU, we talk about our own experiences with sales objections and how we turn that into valuable content to help win sales in the future.
Find out:
How we identify sales objections Ways to overcome them How to use objections for marketing contentTo learn more, check out the full episode for tips on turning sales objections into high-value content.
0:00 – 4:46 Intro 4:46 – 8:08 What is objection handling? 8:08 – 10:57 Objections vs. competition in the market 10:57 – 12:24 How to decide which objections to address 12:24 – 15:41 Objections we’ve dealt with at Metadata 15:41 – 18:16 Why you need consistent responses to sales objections 18:16 – 20:19 How to talk about objections in Leadership meetings 20:19 – 24:15 How Metadata responds to objections in marketing 24:15 – 28:33 Content you can create from objections 28:33 – 29:07 Why we focus more on renewal rates than new sales 29:07 – 37:28 Recent content we’ve created from sales objections 37:28 – 39:30 How Metadata created a landing page to address sales objections 39:30 – 40:17 Outro
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The number one goal for demand gen marketers has always been generating pipeline and revenue.
However, times are changing and more of us are now required to focus on staff retention. Given the economic climate, it’s understandable but, for many, it’s unfamiliar territory.
So, where do we start?
In this episode of DGU, Mark and Jason discuss how they’re prioritizing customer retention as a marketing team, what they do to try and improve retention and what they’ve learned along the way.
Tune into the episode for a 101 on Net Retention Rate (NRR) and Gross Renewal Rate (GRR), why it’s a focus right now and an outline of Metadata’s approach.
Find out:
How to define NRR and GRR and why it’s important The challenges affecting NRR and GRR How Metadata prioritize customer retention0:00 – 0:27 – Introduction
0:27 – 2:49 - Jason’s wacky episode idea
2:49 – 4:37 - Customer retention is unfamiliar territory
4:37 – 5:53- Let’s define NRR and GRR
5:53 – 7:22 - Why NRR AND GRR?
7:22 – 10:41 - Best-in-class retention
10:41 – 18:03 - Why Metadata prioritize retention
18:03 – 20:55 - The company’s number one goal
20:55 – 28:59 - How Metadata are supporting NRR and GRR
28:59 – 30:12 - Creating content that helps us overcome objections
30:12 – 36:31 - Another funny story from Jason
36:31 – 41:04 - Leveraging playbooks (and marijuana water)
41:04 – 42:01 – Outro
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Every B2B marketing team is currently asking themselves the same thing... how do you adjust your marketing plan according to what's going on in the world right now?
It's a chaotic time and having a plan is a great start. But what happens when you have to adjust that plan and then a few months later, have to adjust it again? It’s no easy feat, which is why in this episode of DGU, Mark and Jason cover one of Jason’s not-so-favorite topics… planning!
Tune in to find out how the team at Metadata is approaching marketing planning in the current environment, mistakes they’ve made in the process, and how to say ‘no’ when you really have to.
Find out:
Why Metadata are taking another crack at their Q4 / Q1 plan How and why our goals have changed in the last six months What happens when you work on everything at once0:00 – 0:32 Intro
0:33 – 1:49 Why Jason wants to go back to paper and pencils
1:49 – 3:15 The question every marketing team is asking right now
3:15 – 7:01 Metadata’s Q4-Q1 planning process
7:01 – 12:20 Reworking the plan
12:20 – 24:49 How to goals of the company have changed
24:49 – 28:15 Guardrails Metadata have in place
28:15 – 33:44 Level of effort and potential impact
33:44 – 35:42 What happened when Mark stood in for Jason in a leadership meeting
35:42 – 36:40 Outro
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A laser-focused approach to audience targeting is a must in today’s market. And with all the different tools out there that can collect data, we can really dig into the numbers to improve our targeting.
In this episode of DGU, Mark and Jason revisit a topic they’ve covered before – how to target effectively and define your ICP with data. But we’ve made a whole bunch of changes at Metadata since that episode, and arguably, targeting is more important than it’s ever been.
Tune in to hear Metadata’s approach to targeting, how it’s changed, and what tools we’re using to zero in on our target market.
Find out:
How we approached building targeting criteria How Metadata has evolved its targeting Why we started using Keyplay0:00 – 1:23 Intro
1:23 – 5:51 How Metadata approaches targeting
5:51 – 9:05 How to improve your targeting
9:05 – 21:23 How we’ve built targeting lists and criteria in the past
21:23 – 24:06 How data can help you personalize your outreach
24:06 – 26:56 How the Metadata team has evolved its targeting
26:56 – 31:12 How we’ve been using Keyplay
31:12 – 36:46 Other tools we’ve been using for targeting
36:46 – 37:23 Why you don’t need a lot of tech to do targeting effectively
37:23 – 38:15 Outro
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Unless you’ve been living under a rock, times are tough for B2B marketers.
Every buying decision, whether it’s a new purchase or renewal, is under serious scrutiny right now.
The best place to start for B2B marketers is to recession-proof your messaging. You need to make sure whatever your company sells is positioned as a must-have product or service in any type of economy.
On DGU this week, get an inside look at we’re adjusting our messaging in a down economy at Metadata.
Listen to the full episode to hear what Mark and Alex learned so far, or keep reading for the show notes.
PS give episode 13 of Demand Gen U a listen (How To Develop Your Positioning and Messaging (And Make It Stick) if you missed it last year
Find out:
Why B2B companies need to adjust their messaging in a down economyWhen, where, and how to get started at your own companyHow to work with your Sales team on new messaging0:00 – 1:32 Intro
1:32 – 4:31 Why many companies neglect to change their messaging
4:31 – 5:42 How to define messaging
5:42 – 7:06 What you need to think about when changing your messaging
7:06 – 9:06 How to start tweaking your messaging
9:06 – 11:58 Signs you need to rethink your messaging
11:58 – 13:13 A quantitative look at company messaging
13:13 – 14:41 Where to start
14:41 – 16:21 Why Metadata is starting small with company messaging
16:21 – 21:46 How to talk about messaging and ask the right questions
21:46 – 23:58 How to account for non-traditional personas
23:58 – 26:56 Testing out your new messaging
26:56 – 30:56 How often you should revisit messaging
30:56 – 32:21 Outro
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Every demand-gen marketer knows what it’s like to get stuck on the MQL hamster wheel. You get into a cycle of churning out more leads and demos – while pipeline and revenue are left out of the party.
Moving away from MQLs to revenue involves a big overhaul of sales and marketing processes, and sadly B2B marketers on LinkedIn aren’t really explaining how to do it.
In this week’s DGU, you’ll get an inside look at how we moved away from being solely focused on MQLs to working across the whole pipeline and revenue.
Check out the full episode to hear why marketing should look further down the funnel.
Find out:
Why it’s always important to look at data How Metadata changed its approach to pipeline and revenueHow we distinguished real from “fake” pipeline0:00 – 1:14 Intro
1:14 – 2:49 Why data is always important to track
2:49 – 6:44 Advice for dealing with “armchair marketers”
6:44 – 15:07 How Jason began to change the way we measure data at Metadata
15:07 – 17:00 What “good data” looks like
17:00 – 23:32 How Metadata moved from leads to MQLs to pipeline
23:32 – 25:54 How to look at leading indicators
25:54 – 27:08 Why measure your funnel every day?
27:08 – 32:46 Why planning for a worst-case scenario isn’t always enough
32:46 – 36:51 Advice for people making the jump from MQLs to pipeline and revenue
36:51 – 38:16 Outro
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How do you get customers hooked on your product? Not just signing up, but hooked in a can’t-imagine-life-without-it way. We can’t all be Starbucks, after all.
That’s the idea behind PLG or product-led growth – get your customers hooked on your product and telling everyone about it. It’s something we’ve been trying out at Metadata, and as usual, we’re here to tell you about the stuff we’ve got right along the way, and the things we’ve got wrong, so you don’t have to do the same.
Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing, and Jason Widup, VP of Marketing, share honest insights into the Metadata PLG experiment, how companies are doing it right, and which issues are causing the biggest roadblocks.
Find out:
What is PLG and how does it work? Metadata’s approach to PLG How successful companies manage PLG0:00 – 2:17 Intro
2:17 – 7:15 What is PLG?
7:15 – 9:42 How companies get PLG right
9:42 – 17:29 How Metadata first approached PLG
17:29 – 22:39 The early days of Metadata’s PLG strategy
22:39 – 25:38 Starting with the product changes in Metadata
25:38 – 33:38 How Metadata’s soft launch went
33:38 – 37:14 How Metadata plan to build on its V1
37:14 – 38:03 Outro
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Are you standing out on LinkedIn for all the right reasons? Or is your page gathering dust and tumbleweeds?
We’ve seen our fair share of LinkedIn blunders over the years, from radio-silent accounts to outdated memes to leave-it-to-the-intern strategies and cringey self-promotional posts.
…And we’ve been guilty of a couple of them ourselves. Admittedly, our LinkedIn game wasn’t great in the early days. But thanks to the help of some LinkedIn masters, we’ve turned that around.
In this episode of Demand Gen U, Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing, chats to Katie Cooper, freelance Social Media Content Creator who works closely with us on Metadata’s LinkedIn presence, about the top mistakes B2B brands make on LinkedIn, why the one-size-fits-all approach never works, how to find your voice, and the best way to use comedy on LinkedIn.
Find out:
What NOT to do on LinkedIn How to find your voice on LinkedIn How to mix value and comedy0:00 – 4:12 Intro
4:12 – 10:25 Where B2B brands are going wrong on social
10:25 – 14:17 Why you should focus on one channel first
14:17 – 18:02 How Katie started working with Metadata
18:02 – 21:10 How to find your voice on social media (and how we found ours)
21:10 – 25:43 The best way to balance comedy with value
25:43 – 30:14 How to measure ROI
30:14 – 32:45 Dealing with negative mentions
32:45 – 36:09 The top things Katie wants to try out at Metadata
36:09 – 37:16 Outro
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Are you hitting the nail on the head when it comes to internal marketing?
…you are doing internal marketing, right?
Don’t worry if you’re not. We’ve got your back with this episode of Demand Gen U. Metadata duo Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing, and Jason Widup, VP of Marketing, break down exactly why internal marketing should be a priority. You’ll hear about the challenges, mistakes, and experiments the Metadata marketing team has explored while doing internal marketing – so you don’t have to do the same.
Tune in to hear about our tactics for getting the word out across the company so that everyone is on the same page about marketing.
Find out:
Why internal marketing is so importantHow to use “show and tell” to share what you’re working onWhy repetition is key to getting your message across0:00 – 0:30 – Intro
0:30 – 2:30 What internal marketing is (and isn’t)
2:30 – 6:19 Why Metadata initially started internal marketing
6:19 – 10:05 Our lightbulb moment on why internal marketing is so important
10:05 – 14:47 – What our internal marketing looked like at the start
14:47 – 19:04 How we borrowed the show-and-tell idea for internal marketing
19:04 – 24:46 How Mark preps for his show-and-tell
24:46 – 29:47 Early challenges and confusion
29:47 – 32:02 Other ways to do internal marketing
32:02 – 36:16 Why we built the Metadatabase
36:16 – 40:31 Why the importance of repetition is the biggest lesson Mark learned from internal marketing
40:31 – 41:44 Outro
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Budget cuts, layoffs and everything in between – it’s tough to be a B2B marketer right now.
Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing, and Jason Widup, VP of Marketing at Metadata are feeling it too, which is why they figured the best place to start is with something you can control.
So right now, they’re slap bang in the middle of a ‘no meeting’ experiment and it’s having all sorts of effects on the productivity of the team.
Tune in to find out:
The lowdown on the experiment and how it started Tools that make cutting down on meetings run smoothly Plans for meetings going forward0:00 – 3:26 – Introduction (and Jason’s wallet story)
3:26 – 11:19 - How the experiment started and things we considered
11:19 – 15:01 - We set some ground rules
15:01 – 17:21 - Changing up one-on-one meetings
17:21 – 18:21 – Please don’t send Jason a long document
18:21 – 22:05 - No-meeting experiment: the good, the bad, the ugly
22:05 – 24:57 – Why we love Loom
24:57 – 26:59 - What Mark has enjoyed about the experiment
26:59 – 35:29- How Asana helps the experiment run smoothly
35:29 – 39:53 - The changes to their meeting cadence
39:53 – 41:13 - Outro
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If you want to learn how to audit your ad accounts and make sure you’re set up for success in 2023, then guess what? You’re in the right place!
On this episode of Demand Gen U, Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing, is joined by Silvio Perez, former Head of Product Innovation, to discuss all things ad audits.
Silvio’s an expert on this, so Mark asks him what to bear in mind when looking for a new ad account in 2023.
Plus, Silvio explains the biggest ways people mess up with ad accounts, outlines the basics of attribution, and shares one tip that could save your team “a ton of money in 2023”. Silvio’s treating you guys on this episode!
Find out:
The basics of attribution Why copywriting is king About blended inbound performance0:00 – 1:38 - Introduction (feat Ad Man!)
1:38 – 3:55 - Why to start with strategy and goals
3:55 – 7:32 - Are you able to measure? (and the power of blended inbound performance)
7:32 – 7:58 – Breaking down the episode
7:58 – 12:40 - New ad account – the first steps
12:40 – 18:06 - The biggest mistakes people make when setting up ad accounts
18:06 – 22:00 - Discussing Google Analytics 4
22:00 – 25:21 - Auditing your attribution
25:21 – 27:21 - All things UTMs
27:21 – 41:13 - Audiences and search – what to look at
41:13 – 42:34 - Pro tip from Silvio!
42:34 – 54:58 - Ad creative and copy
54:58 – 56:14 - Outro
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What does good demand gen look like in 2023?
We scrolled through our archives and analytics to discover that episode 5, ‘What Good Demand Gen Will Look Like in 2022’ is one of our best-performing episodes. So, here we are. Doing it all over again for 2023.
On this episode, Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing and Jason Widup, VP of Marketing at Metadata, discuss the demand gen landscape for the year 2023.
They explore doing more with less after budget cuts, giving buyers total visibility, the new face of in-person events and so much more.
Find out:
What budget cuts could mean for marketing teamsThe ins-and-outs of conversion rate optimizationWhy we should run campaigns that target whole buying committees0:00 – 3:29 - Introduction (and Jason’s hair is different AGAIN)
3:23 – 7:25 - Doing more with less in 2023
7:25 – 8:52 - Can we forecast?
8:52 – 15:55 - Conversion rate optimization
15:55 – 22:42 - The power of word-of-mouth
22:42 – 26:57 - Complete visibility for buyers
26:57 – 30:47 - Campaigns to target WHOLE buying committee
30:27 – 37:22 - People buying from people
37:22 – 45:20 - The return (and new face) of in-person events
45:20 – 46:31 - Outro
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As we wrap up our first year of Demand Gen U, we thought it would be fitting to look back at everything that’s happened at Metadata over the past year.
We’re taking a trip down memory lane to discuss the good, the bad and the ugly at Metadata in 2022!
Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing and Jason Widup, VP of Marketing at Metadata, reminisce over Demand events, comparison pages, LinkedIn demos and damning budget cuts. It’s not one for the faint-hearted!
Find out:
Our successes with comparison pages and Demand eventsWhy Metadata are stepping away from incentivized LinkedIn demosHow we dealt with 30%-35% marketing budget cuts0:00 – 1:43 – Intro (featuring beanies and man-buns)
1:43 – 6:44 – Podcasting trial and error
6:44 – 11:06 – What’s helped Jason grow in his role
11:06 – 13:39 – Analyzing the 6Sense comparison page
13:39 – 17:18 – Going bigger and better with Demand
17:18 – 19:46 – That LinkedIn incentivized ad cliff
19:46 – 25:08 – Why we U-turned on analysts
25:08 – 30:08 – Creating a new category (we’re not an ABM platform, guys)
30:08 – 34:35 – Dealing with budget cuts
34:35 – 39:43 – Planning for the ‘new normal’
39:43 – 42:37 – Goodbye MDF numbers…
42:37 – 44:12 – Outro
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The disconnect between marketers and creative teams – it’s a tale as old as time!
But it doesn’t have to be that way, right? When these two teams have a solid and productive relationship…BOOM…great things happen.
On this guest episode of Demand Gen U, Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing at Metadata, sits down with Algert Sula, founder and CEO of creative branding agency.
Algert reveals all about his route into the industry, why he believes marketers and creatives sometimes struggle to gel and how copy and design should complement one another.
Plus, he puts forward his B2B design trend predictions for 2023.
Find out:
How Algert got started in creative work Algert’s explanation for the disconnect between creatives and marketers What ‘brand’ means to Algert0:00 – 1:24 – Introduction
1:24 – 7:17 – Let’s introduce Algert
7:17 – 11:19 – Why marketers and creatives don’t get along!
11:19 – 14:11 – How marketers frustrate creatives
14:11 – 17:14 – What brand means to Algert
17:14 – 21:48 – Algert’s creative process (he’s got no secrets!)
21:48 – 23:42 – How copy and design compliment each other
23:42 – 27:51 – Metadata 2.0?
27:51 – 31:52 – Algert predicts B2B design trends for 2023
31:52 – 33:18 – Outro
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It’s no secret…being a marketing leader can be hard. No matter what study you’re looking at, it feels like the average job tenure for marketing leaders gets shorter and shorter by the month.
Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing and Jason Widup, VP of Marketing at Metadata, get vulnerable on this episode of Demand Gen U, as Mark asks Jason about everything that comes with being a marketing leader and invites him to share the challenges he has faced through his career.
Find out:
How Jason has grown as a marketing leaderThe benefits of building strong relationships in marketing teamsHow to take feedback as a marketing leader0:00 – 1:00 – Introduction
1:00 – 2:25 – Cause for celebration!
2:25 – 3:30 – Learning and growing as a marketing leader
3:30 – 6:01 – What is the job of a marketing leader (besides brewing kombucha…)?
6:01 – 8:00 – How has Jason’s definition of a marketing leader changed?
8:00 – 12:29 – Championing team building and morale
12:29 – 16:25 – Why is it so hard being a marketing leader?
16:25 – 18:15 – Some dangers of closeness at work
18:15 – 29:39 – Giving and receiving feedback
29:39 – 35:39 – Importance of team morale
35:39 – 41:08 – Looking after your team in your marketing plans
41:08 – 42:34 – Outro
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No matter what industry you’re in, one thing is certain. You have direct competitors. And with so many options on the market, it can be difficult for buyers to see if you’re the option for them.
Especially when they have to battle through buzzwords and empty promises!
In this episode of Demand Gen U, Jason Widup, VP of Marketing and Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing at Metadata, discuss the humble comparison page.
They discuss how you should use them, how much time to spend on them and explore top secrets on the Metadata vs. 6Sense comparison page. Check out the comparison page here.
Find out:
Insight into Metadata’s comparison page How to frame the conversation without bashing competitors Common things that go wrong with comparison pages0:00 – 2:31 – Introduction (and Mark’s Invisalign)
2:31 – 7:05 – Why do we need comparison pages?
7:05 – 7:47 – Why they are high-intent pages
7:47 – 16:27 – How comparison pages can go wrong
16:27 – 21:25 – Where Metadata looked for comparison page inspiration
21:25 – 30:46 – How Metadata executed the 6Sense page
30:46 – 35:27 – How the page has been received
35:27 – 36:41 – More comparison pages on the horizon?
36:41 – 38:09 – Outro
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At Metadata, this year has gone super fast. It feels like just last week we were finalizing our planning for 2022. But now the focus is very much on 2023.
In this episode of Demand Gen U, Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing, is joined by Silvio Perez, Head of Product Innovation, and DGU newcomer Bryttney Blanken, Senior Demand Generation Manager at Metadata.
They discuss a range of topics surrounding campaign planning, including how to get started, whether you need campaign briefs and why it doesn’t have to be as complex as you think.
Find out more about Demand here: https://metadata.io/resources/demand/
Find out:
The ins-and-outs of the Bullseye frameworkWhy you should turn ideas into hypothesesHow to sell your ideas internally0:00 – 1:45 – Introduction
1:45 – 2:50 – The anxieties of campaign planning
2:50 – 4:44 – Why do marketers overcomplicate campaign planning?
4:44 – 7:10 – Where to get started
7:10 – 9:56 – How far to plan ahead
9:56 – 13:40 – Taking ideas a step further
13:40 – 21:44 – Taking a step back – first things to look at
21:44 – 27:45 – Is there a need for campaign briefs?
27:45 – 33:15 – Making a difference to the business
33:15 – 38:26 – Working cross-functionally on plans
38:26 – 44:21 – Getting leadership on board
44:21 – 46:03 – Outro
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Buying B2B software can be such a pain. Many companies require you to book a demo and speak to multiple people, only to be asked the same questions you’ve already answered!
To put it simply, buying B2B software is broken.
In this episode of Demand Gen U, Mark Huber, Head of Brand & Product Marketing at Metadata, is joined by special guest Sam Senior, co-founder and CEO of TestBox, to discuss how to fix buying B2B software.
Sam explains why he started TestBox, how and why B2B companies should ungate their products and which software categories are ripe for TestBox’s processes.
Find out:
How TestBox are flying the flag for customer-led buying experiencesHow sellers can adapt to the new buyerWhat the modern buyer really wants00:34 Introducing Sam and TestBox
05:06 Gated versus Ungated Content
09:34 How product knowledge and reviews have changed the sales process
10:51 Adapting to educated buyers
13:15 How to start ungating your content
15:20 Making the case for ungating your product internally
18:40 Showing off value to your buyers
21:25 Companies that really know their activation metrics
23:36 Buying fatigue for RevOps and MarTech products
26:04 Consumer expectations when buying software have changed
30:09 Why you should get your product team involved
31:10 Outro
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It’s that time of year again! Time to put a finger in the air and make an educated guess at what you need to do across the next 12 months to drive your business forward.
Planning is a colossal challenge. When you throw limited resources and an ever-changing business landscape into the mix, it can look like a pretty scary prospect.
In this episode of Demand Gen U, Mark Huber, Head of Brand and Product Marketing joins Jason Widup, VP of Marketing at Metadata to discuss how you can build your 2023 marketing plan…sort of!
Mark and Jason explain the benefits of involving other teams in your planning, how to plan objective key results that work and why planning your year to the letter is simply impossible.
Find out:
Why goal setting often trumps stringent planning About when marketers become salespeople How far ahead to plan0:00 – 2:58 – Intro
2:58 – 7:07 – Should you create a 12-month marketing plan?
7:07 – 7:57 – The benefits of transparency around planning
7:57 – 11:13 – Why not involve other teams in your marketing plan?
11:13 – 14:18 – Jason’s best experiences of planning in past roles
14:18 – 19:10 – The benefits of OKRs (when done well)
19:10 – 20:55 – Planning for other marketing functions
20:55 – 25:44 – Getting other team members involved
25:44 – 28:54 – Why plan more than you need?
28:54 – 31:30 – Planning in challenging times
31:30 – 33:20 – Advice from an advisor
33:20 – 35:29 – Revisiting plans
35:29 – 37:06 – How much to plan
37:06 – 38:19 – Outro
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