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  • In the latest episode of Morningstar DBRS’ “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, who leads Morningstar DBRS’ European Structured Finance Research team, is joined by Dylan Cissou, Senior Vice President, Lead, Structured Finance Analytics, Quant, and Christian Aufsatz, Managing Director, European Structured Finance Ratings to discuss the potential impact of Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) scores on residential property values in England/Wales and how EPC scores could affect Morningstar DBRS’ structured finance credit analysis in European mortgage-backed securities.

    The episode also explores whether there is a quantitative relationship between energy-efficiency improvements and house prices, and includes a discussion of how Morningstar DBRS embarked on this quantitative exercise, which data sets were used, and how the models to test different variables were chosen.

    Related Content:

    “EPCs Creating Ripples, Not Waves, for House Prices in England and Wales” https://dbrs.morningstar.com/research/433237/epcs-creating-ripples-not-waves-for-house-prices-in-england-and-wales

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the Morningstar DBRS disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrs.morningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrs.morningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. Morningstar DBRS will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In the latest episode of Morningstar DBRS’ “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, who leads our European Structured Finance Research team, is joined by Guglielmo Panizza, Vice President, European ABS Ratings, and Miklos Halasz, Assistant Vice President, European ABS Ratings, to discuss the treatment of alternative-fuelled vehicles in asset-backed securities (ABS) transactions.

    The episode provides an overview of the European auto market covering key trends and some differences among jurisdictions. Road vehicles contribute roughly 15% of global CO2 emissions, and, more specifically, cars and vans contribute around 10%. Working towards net-zero targets, the auto industry is shifting towards alternative fuel vehicles, and we are beginning to see this change also in securitised European auto pools. The speakers examine whether this transition from internal combustion engines to alternative-fuelled vehicles has any impact on the credit performance or credit rating analysis of auto ABS transactions.

    Related Content:

    “European Auto ABS: Too Much Green Can Add Uncertainty” https://dbrs.morningstar.com/research/432991/european-auto-abs-too-much-green-can-add-uncertainty“Rating European Auto Wholesale Securitisations” https://dbrs.morningstar.com/research/435289/rating-european-auto-wholesale-securitisations

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the Morningstar DBRS disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrs.morningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrs.morningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. Morningstar DBRS will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

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  • In this episode of Morningstar DBRS’ “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, who leads our European Structured Finance Research team, is joined by Rehanna Sameja, Senior Vice President, European RMBS & Covered Bond Ratings and Jonathan Riber, Senior Vice President, Sector Lead U.S. ABS Ratings, Consumer Assets, to discuss the solar energy sector.

    The episode covered the key components of our recently published commentary, "Sun is Beginning to Shine on European Residential Solar ABS" available at https://dbrs.morningstar.com/research/433299, and our global "Rating Solar ABS Transactions" methodology available at https://dbrs.morningstar.com/research/434677. The panel also discussed recent advances in the solar energy sector, the state of the solar asset-backed securities (ABS) securitisation market, the unique traits of solar ABS contracts, and their probable influence on credit considerations. The panel also looked at divergence across different solar contract types and explored analytical considerations for rating them accordingly.

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the Morningstar DBRS disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrs.morningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrs.morningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. Morningstar DBRS will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode of Morningstar DBRS’ “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, who leads our European Structured Finance Research team, is joined by Adriana Alvarado, Senior Vice President, Sector Lead of Global Sovereign Ratings and Ketan Thaker, Managing Director of European RMBS & Covered Bond Ratings to discuss the impact of the new Labour government on the UK’s housing market.

    The episode explored the shift to the newly elected Labour Party-led government after 14 years of Conservative Party-led rule, the election result’s impact on the UK economy, and the key takeaways from this change. As always, house prices and housing availability are important to UK voters. The panel discussed the views presented in the pre-election Labour Party manifesto, particularly those around housing plans for the next parliament. Past governments have repeatedly failed to meet housebuilding targets, and the speakers examined whether the problem lies in the number of houses built or other factors at play. The panel also delved into our credit view on how the new government’s proposed policies could affect the performance of UK residential mortgage-backed security (RMBS) transactions.

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the Morningstar DBRS disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrs.morningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrs.morningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. Morningstar DBRS will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode of Morningstar DBRS’s “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, collates the thoughts of Morningstar DBRS analysts featured at this year’s 2024 Global ABS conference in Barcelona:

    - Ronja Dahmen, Vice President, European RMBS & Covered Bond Ratings spoke on the Day 1 panel European Residential MBS

    - Christian Aufsatz, Head of European Structured Finance, moderated the Day 2 Issuer Roundtable

    - Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, moderated the Day 2 Investor Roundtable

    - Sebastiano Romano, Vice President, European NPL Ratings, spoke on the Day 1 European NPL/RPL Supply panel

    Related research is available at the following link: https://go-dbrs.morningstar.com/GlobalABS2024

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the Morningstar DBRS disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrs.morningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrs.morningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. Morningstar DBRS will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode, Mudasar Chaudhry, who leads European Structured Finance Research at Morningstar DBRS, is joined by Begum Gursoy, Director, Sustainable Finance Solutions at Morningstar Sustainalytics, and Christian Aufsatz, Managing Director, European Structured Finance Ratings at Morningstar DBRS, to discuss topics related to climate change and relevant credit considerations in structured finance.

    The inaugural part of the session saw us discussing the key differences between second-party opinions (SPOs) and credit ratings. We then turned our attention to the key considerations in the context of SPOs and credit risk analysis when considering climate change. We also discussed if SPOs or a lack thereof, impact credit ratings analysis in European Structured Finance. The speakers also shared their views on whether ESG-labelled transactions carry any premium and how they see the market evolving.

    Related research is available at the following link:

    Commentary - ESG: Climate Risk and Credit: -- https://dbrs.morningstar.com/research/413235/esg-climate-risk-and-creditMethodology - Morningstar DBRS Criteria: Approach to Environmental, Social, and Governance Risk Factors in Credit Ratings: https://dbrs.morningstar.com/research/427030/morningstar-dbrs-criteria-approach-to-environmental-social-and-governance-risk-factors-in-credit-ratings

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the Morningstar DBRS disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrs.morningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrs.morningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. Morningstar DBRS will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode, Mudasar Chaudhry, who leads European Structured Finance Research at Morningstar DBRS, is joined by Mirco Iacobucci, Senior Vice President, Sector Lead, European Real Estate Ratings, and Patrizia Catanese, Assistant Vice President, European Real Estate Ratings, to discuss how disclosures on energy efficiency and their implementation are addressed within the European commercial mortgage-backed securities (CMBS) sector.

    We delve into details on how Morningstar DBRS’ environmental, social, and governance (ESG) criteria framework incorporates ESG considerations in the credit rating process with reference to commercial real estate and how real estate assets contribute to carbon emissions. In the context of our analysis, we discuss how we evaluate the impact of the energy efficiency data, if available, on cash flow, value, and loan refinancing prospects. The conversation also revolves around some regulatory and disclosure requirements coming into force in the near future, which may affect CMBS.

    Related Content:

    Commentary - Energy Performance in European CMBS: Reporting and Regulations: https://dbrs.morningstar.com/research/428005

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the Morningstar DBRS disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrs.morningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrs.morningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. Morningstar DBRS will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode, Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research at Morningstar DBRS, is joined by Lorenzo Simonte, Assistant Vice President, European Nonperforming Loan (NPL) Ratings at Morningstar DBRS, and Norman Pepe, Partner at iLS , to discuss the role of different types of servicers in the context of Italian NPL transactions. We further discuss the decisions of some Italian courts that consider the distinction between master servicing and special servicing activities to be in breach of the Italian Securitisation Law. We also delve into details of how these developments may affect the credit ratings of Italian NPL transactions.

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode, Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, is joined by Richa Pandey, Analyst for European Structured Finance Research, and Christian Aufsatz, Managing Director and Head of European Structured Finance, to introduce Energy Performance Certificates (EPCs). We discussed if there is quantitative relationship between energy-efficiency improvements and lower probability of default for associated loans as well as if EPCs of residential properties can affect credit ratings. We also discussed some regulatory and disclosure requirements, which can further assist with the availability of consistent EPC data. While the speakers acknowledged the presence of some initial evidence of credit implications related to EPC factors, their current significance falls short of justifying their inclusion as pertinent for quantitative credit analysis.

    Related Content:

    Commentary - RMBS: Not All EPCs Created Equal: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/410781/rmbs-not-all-epcs-created-equalCommentary - Residential EPCs versus Credit Relevance: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/421101/residential-epcs-versus-credit-relevance

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, is joined by Christian Aufsatz, Managing Director, Head of European Structured Finance, and Marcos Alvarez, Senior Vice President, Global Head of Insurance, to give an introduction to climate change scenarios and how climate risk could result in an increase in debt issuers’ default probability or a reduction in asset valuations. Speakers discuss the intersection of climate and credit analysis, and what DBRS Morningstar is focusing on as a credit rating agency. We further explore who ultimately pays for losses caused by climate change.

    Related Content:

    Commentary - ESG: Climate Risk and Credit: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/413235/esg-climate-risk-and-creditCommentary - European Securitisation and ESG-Related Issuance: Credit Relevance of Indirect Exposure to ESG Factors https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/417250/european-securitisation-and-esg-related-issuance-credit-relevance-of-indirect-exposure-to-esg-factorsMethodology - DBRS Morningstar Criteria: Approach to Environmental, Social, and Governance Risk Factors in Credit Ratings: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/416784/dbrs-morningstar-criteria-approach-to-environmental-social-and-governance-risk-factors-in-credit-ratings

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, is joined by Dinesh Thapar, Vice President, European CMBS, to discuss the recent trends in European commercial mortgage-backed securities (CMBS) and how the market is evolving from traditional CMBS to esoteric assets as the underlying collateral. We will also discuss the impact of high inflation and the rapid rise of interest rates and their impacts on European CMBS transactions as well as provide a general outlook for the asset class.

    Related Content:

    Esoteric Assets Prevail in European CMBS: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/421014/esoteric-assets-prevail-in-european-cmbs.

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode of DBRS Morningstar’s “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, is joined by Paolo Conti, Head of European ABS, to discuss the proposed updates to DBRS Morningstar’s "Rating European Consumer and Commercial Asset-Backed Securitisations" methodology. Speakers shared thoughts on what residual value (RV) risk is and why it matters in European ABS transactions. The proposed updates to the methodology relate to a revision of our approach to RV risk and the application of stresses to salary assignment loans. In particular, our revised approach provides for the incorporation of dependency on the remaining term.

    Related Content:

    The proposed “Rating European Consumer and Commercial Asset-Backed Securitisations” methodology is available on DBRS Morningstar’s website at the following link: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/420356/dbrs-morningstar-requests-comments-on-proposed-methodology-for-rating-european-consumer-and-commercial-asset-backed-securitisations.

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode of DBRS Morningstar’s “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, focuses on the recent trends observed in the UK Buy-to-Let (BTL) market.

    Mudasar is joined by Lorenzo Coccioli, Vice President of European RMBS & Covered Bonds. They delve into the details and share thoughts on the recent trends observed in the UK BTL sector. House prices in the UK are showing signs of declines due to persistent inflation and the ongoing cost-of-living crisis, which has been further compounded by the effects of the sharp increase in interest rates. Given this background, the speakers also share their thoughts on how the market is shaping up and the wider impact on the UK RMBS transactions.

    Related Content:

    UK BTL Sector: Treading Turbulent Waters: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/420444/uk-btl-sector-treading-turbulent-waters

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, focuses on the recent trends observed in relation to the evolution of foreclosures and bankruptcies in Spain over the past few years.

    Mudasar is joined by Alberto Cruces, Vice President, and Jorge Aranda, Senior Analyst, both members of the European NPL team based in DBRS Morningstar's Madrid office. Speakers delved into details of the legal processes, discussed the latest statistics, and shared their view of the consequences for current and future nonperforming loan portfolios in Spain.

    Related Content:

    Spain Foreclosures and Bankruptcies: Is the System Ready for an Uptick: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/41556

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode of DBRS Morningstar’s “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, collates the thoughts of the following four DBRS Morningstar analysts featured at this year’s 2023 Global ABS conference in Barcelona:

    - Christian Aufsatz, Head of European Structured Finance, moderated the Day 2 Institutional Investor’s Roundtable;

    - Sinem Erol-Aziz, Vice President of European NPLs, spoke on the Day 1 Greek & Cypriot Securitisation & NPL Management panel;

    - Rehanna Sameja, Senior Vice President of European RMBS, spoke on the Day 2 European Residential MBS panel; and

    - Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, moderated the ABS Reseachers’ Roundtable

    Related Content:

    Commentary: Greece and Cyprus—Two Different NPL Journeys: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/415579/greece-and-cyprustwo-different-npl-journeys

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this two-part series of DBRS Morningstar’s “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, focuses on the climate risk and potential impact on credit.

    Mudasar is joined by Christian Aufsatz, Head of European Structured Finance, and Rehanna Sameja, Senior Vice President of European RMBS, to give an introduction to climate change, climate change scenarios, and how climate risk could increase an issuer’s default probability or a reduction in asset valuation(s). The guests also delved into how DBRS Morningstar considers climate risk in its rating analysis of European structured finance transactions and, in terms of time horizons, how climate risk compares with typical time horizons for other types of credit risk.

    Related Content:

    ESG: Climate Risk and Credit: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/413235/esg-climate-risk-and-credit

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this two-part series of DBRS Morningstar’s “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, focuses on the climate risk and potential impact on credit.

    Mudasar is joined by Christian Aufsatz, Head of European Structured Finance, and Rehanna Sameja, Senior Vice President of European RMBS, to give an introduction to climate change, climate change scenarios, and how climate risk could increase an issuer’s default probability or a reduction in asset valuation(s). The guests also delved into how DBRS Morningstar considers climate risk in its rating analysis of European structured finance transactions and, in terms of time horizons, how climate risk compares with typical time horizons for other types of credit risk.

    Related Content:

    ESG: Climate Risk and Credit: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/413235/esg-climate-risk-and-credit

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode of DBRS Morningstar’s “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, focuses on the European auto asset-backed securities (ABS) sector and key changes in transaction structures within this space due to rising interest rates.

    Chaudhry is joined by Guglielmo Panizza, Vice President, and Miklos Halasz, Assistant Vice President, both from our European ABS team to discuss how increasing interest rates are affecting excess spreads and how portfolio asset repricing is evident in European auto ABS transactions.

    Related Content:

    European ABS: Excess Spread Compression in Auto ABS: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/413373/european-abs-excess-spread-compression-in-auto-absOldie but not Goldie: Vehicle Manufacturer Analysis in European Auto ABS: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/410084/oldie-but-not-goldie-vehicle-manufacturer-analysis-in-european-auto-abs

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this episode of DBRS Morningstar’s “European Securitisation Insights” podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research at DBRS Morningstar, focuses on the European small and medium-size enterprise (SME) sector. He is joined by Carlos Silva, Head of European Structured Credit, and Maria Lopez, Senior Vice President of European Structured Credit, to discuss how the recent rise in interest rates is affecting both the assets and liabilities sides of European SME securitisation transactions. They further delve into details of how originators and issuers continue to evolve lending practices and transaction structures, respectively, as well as the potential impact of these changes on credit ratings.

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.

  • In this edition of DBRS Morningstar’s European Securitisation Insights Podcast, host Mudasar Chaudhry, Head of European Structured Finance Research, focuses on the CMBS market's forecast and discusses the rising demand for environmentally friendly office spaces in Europe. He is joined by Mirco Iacobucci, Head of European CMBS to discuss outlook of various different CRE asset types and Andrea Selvarolo, Senior Analyst in the European CMBS team who delves into details of changing dynamics in European office sector and rise in demand of newer and greener places for work.

    Related Content:

    European CMBS 2023 Outlook: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/408294/european-cmbs-2023-outlook

    CMBS: European Net-Zero Targets and the Rising Demand for Green Office Space: https://www.dbrsmorningstar.com/research/408726/cmbs-european-net-zero-targets-and-the-rising-demand-for-green-office-space

    By downloading or listening to this podcast, you are agreeing to the DBRS Morningstar disclaimer and legal terms and conditions found at dbrsmorningstar.com/about/disclaimer and dbrsmorningstar.com/about/termsandconditions, including that the information provided is not investment, financial or other advice. DBRS Morningstar will not be liable for losses arising from your use of the information. Please note that the content of this podcast is intended for European audiences only.