Episoder
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In this episode Helene talks to Cath about her role as Senior Engagement Advisor and internal facilitator with the Environment Agency (EA)
Cath tells Helene a bit about the EA and the type of work they do. She explains how her role as Engagement Advisor includes facilitation and also how she works an an independent internal facilitator for other projects withing the EA.
Cath gives some examples of what she really enjoys about her role as a faciliator including working with the public on a climate adaptation project and working alongside external independent facilitators that the EA also use. She explains that external faciliatators are often used when more complex conversations need to be had, or where there has been a breakdown of trust and someone independent is needed.
She shares some insights as to how the internal facilitators network of aroudn 200 facilitators was set up and how she balances her work as Senior Engagement Advisor and facilitator.
She tells Helene about a role play technique that really made a difference and about how asking good questions are crucial to her work as a faciliator.
Cath also talks about how she keeps her faciliation skills up including attending the IAF England and Wales conferences, and local IAF meetups and EA facilitator learning days. She also shares some advice for other internal facilitators.
A full transcript is below.
Today's Guest
Environment Agency - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter
Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/
And to email us: [email protected]
IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales
The Facilitation Stories Team
Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Transcript
H.J
Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helen Jewell, and my guest today is Cath Brooks, senior engagement advisor with the Environment Agency. Welcome, Cath
C.B
Hi, yeah. Hi. How are you doing? Alright?
H.J
I'm good. How are you?
C.B
Yeah, good. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for inviting me. I'm Looking forward to it.
H.J
It's really good to have you on the podcast. Okay, so I have a whole load of questions to ask you, starting with the Environment Agency. I just wondered if you could tell us a little bit more about what the Environment Agency does and what your role is?
C.B
Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I hope that it'll inspire people. I've worked at the Environment Agency for almost 20 years, and I still absolutely love it. It's a great organisation. So we're a public sector organisation, and we aim, quite simply, to protect and improve the environment. We employ about 12,000 people, and some people work nationally across England, and then some people work in area offices. We've got 14 different area offices across England, so you either work on national issues or you work on local issues in one of our area offices. And I guess to create places for people and wildlife, we work on quite a lot of topics that people are deeply concerned about, and finding ways forward can be difficult on some of the issues, people have strong opinions about the environment and how we should be managing the environment quite rightly. So Facilitation skills are really important in that context, with some of the really difficult issues that we're managing. So some of those topics are things like managing major industry, making sure they're not polluting the environment, and waste, dealing with contaminated land, making sure water quality of our rivers and we've got enough water so water resources as well, working on fisheries, conservation and ecology, and my area that I work on is management of flood risk. So those sorts of issues are really interesting, and people have strong opinions about how we should be managing those issues. So there can be quite a lot of conflict, I guess, which is why facilitation is so important.
H.J
And so then, obviously that's quite a broad even under the umbrella of the environment, that's quite a broad range of different areas, and in your particular area then, in your role as senior engagement advisor, what does that actually involve? Sort of before, obviously, I guess facilitation is part of that, but I know you also do it sort of separately as well. What does your main role? What does your main role involve?
C.B
Yeah, so we've got engagement advisors. Obviously, the organisation's quite technical organisation, quite science and engineering led, but we also have engagement and communications experts within the Environment Agency, and I'm one of those. So I work alongside quite technical teams, and at the moment I'm working, I've worked in lots of different parts of the organisation, but at the moment I'm working in flood risk management, supporting our teams. I work nationally, and so supporting our national teams with big projects where there's, they're difficult topics, where people have strong opinions. And my job, my main job, is engagement planning. So we're whatever the project is thinking about what are our engagement aims? Why do we want to work with our stakeholders? Why do they want to work with us, making sure we're not just thinking from the perspective of the Environment Agency, my job is to help our staff to think about the impact it's going to have on on a range of stakeholders, and plan the best methods that we can for that particular project to work out, how can we get the best from our stakeholders? How can they get the best of us? How can we find solutions that work for all of us, not just for the Environment Agency?
So we try to avoid taking what we've called in the past the âdecide, announce, defend approachâ. My job is to help staff to be more, to sort of take a more âengage, deliberate, decideâ, so to help have quality conversations about these difficult issues, really listen to our stakeholders, designing the right methods, really to help create that space for those quality conversations about what can be really difficult issues. And that's my job, is designing those sorts of engagement methods, if you like, and then facilitation sits really nicely alongside that.
H.J
And so when you do that facilitation, I as far as I understand, you're part of an internal facilitators network. How, how did that kind of come about? When was that set up?
C.B
Yeah, that's right. So when I joined the Environment Agency, back in 1996 we didn't have many people who worked in engagement roles or facilitation network. So we started really by setting up the engagement roles and setting up training for staff around comms and engagement and how to do that engagement planning like I've just talked about. And very quickly we realised actually there's another set of skills that that we need to develop as well, which is facilitation. So when you are designing methods that involve dialog, you know having facilitation skills, having skills to be able to design those interactive sessions in a way that you're making the most of that time when you've got your stakeholders in the room is really important. And it's quite a different skill, actually, than just engagement planning, being able to design a face to face or an online session where you've got people in the room making the very best of that time. So we're all really busy. Our staff are busy, our stakeholders are busy. So making the most of those opportunities, that's why we developed the facilitation skills courses.
So first of all, we started off by getting some expert engagement professionals in to help us design facilitation courses that were for in-house facilitators. And then very quickly, and within about 18 months, we realised that people were going on the training, really enjoying the training, but then struggling to apply the training in their day jobs, because, you know, you could go a couple of months and not use it. And we very quickly realised that if you're going to facilitate, and you have to do it quickly, you have to do it very often, and you need, you need to support each other. So we set the network up to give people safe space to be able to facilitate internally. So to develop people's skills and create opportunities to be able to facilitate not in your day job. So that's why the network was set up, was to, so people could put forward a facilitation request and get someone who wasn't their day job, they went and practised their skill outside their day job, which, which means you can facilitate in a more pure way which was, which has been fantastic. It's, it's worked really well.
H.J
And I want to ask a little bit more about that, actually. But before I do, I just wanted to pick up on the differences between engagement and facilitation, and where you see the differences being?
C.B
yeah, I do think they're quite different skills. So I think being able to do good engagement planning across a project, you think we've got big projects that might go on for years, and they're quite technical. You need to understand the, you know, the technical context of that bit of work, what the business objectives are, what the engagement objectives are, what best methods we can apply, you know, to help people to engage with us, and for that to have an impact on on the decision making, that's quite different. You could do that, and then you can realise in that process, there's usually going to have to be some kind of series of face to face events. But the person doing that engagement planning might not necessarily have this skill to be able to run that face to face content, and sometimes actually, we do need a completely independent facilitator.
So there might be a topic where we might have lost trust with some of our stakeholders, where it's not appropriate for the Environment Agency to facilitate those conversations and we do need an independent facilitator. And that is whether it's an in-house facilitator and an independent facilitator, being able to design that's more in depth, designing how to make the most of the conversation, how to create a space where people feel safe, to be able to air their concerns and feel listened to. I guess it's like engagement planning, but it's really specifically thinking about that particular conversation and what you want to get out of that conversation. So it's micro design, I guess, within a particular moment in time, and you might use that facilitator, or you might use a facilitator that then exits the process, whereas the engagement person stays throughout and they use the results of that conversation, and they kind of have to carry on, whereas a facilitator might just come in for that particular moment, then they might not be involved again. So they are quite different skills.
H.J
And so what determines how you choose a particular facilitator, be it an in-house one or an external facilitator. How does that process work?
C.B
Yeah, so we'd use an in-house facilitator for a process where, so quite often the engagement person needs to be, needs to participate in the conversation. And if the engagement person involved in that bit of work needs to be involved in the conversation, then they'd use an in-house facilitator to help make sure that, you know, they just come in, offer the service, create the space so that everyone in the team can participate. And often there's other people outside the team, you know, other stakeholders and things. And if the topic is not too controversial, it's all to do with positionality and trust and the way the Environment Agency is viewed. If there's good trust and good relationships between all the people, then an in-house facilitator can do that role. When I'm doing that, I upfront say, I work for the Environment Agency, but I'm not here today as someone who works in the Environment Agency, I'm here to facilitate and make sure you're heard. I'd work with all the different stakeholders before to make sure that the design was taken their, you know, that their needs into account. I wouldn't just turn up on the day, so do all the things that an independent facilitator.
Obviously, we're a public sector organisation, so it has to make the most out of me as a facilitator and engagement expert. So I try and do that as much as possible. I'd only use an independent facilitator, which obviously costs us money as an organisation. Weâd only do that in a situation where we genuinely needed that independence, and lots of reasons for that, but normally it's to do with trust and transparency and making sure that, you know, there might be awkward situations where things might have gone wrong in the past, and stakeholders would feel more comfortable if someone independent is facilitating, even just for a small period of time, just to help us through that.
H.J
And how many facilitators have you got as part of your network then?
C.B
Yeah, I knew you were going to ask, I think there's about 200 at the moment on the facilitation network.
H.J
Wow. Okay, and how do you manage that kind of balance of work in your, let's say, day job, versus facilitating for a different, a different project that you're not part of then?
C.B
Yeah so for me, I mean, we all do it differently. So we're allowed 11 development days a year. And so I use those Development Days aren't just, you just, don't just go on training courses and things. I use my Development Days to do independent facilitation for other people within the environment agency. So each quarter I have a maybe do one event per quarter for someone else, if it's a chunky event, because you need to do the planning for them, you need to facilitate and then help them with the results. So I think we all do that. We view it as part of our development, and we, you know, discuss it with our line managers and carve out time to go and do it. It's completely up to each individual facilitator to decide, and we have peaks and troughs in our work. If you're working on a project that had a lot of facilitation within that project, then you might not do any facilitation for anyone else in that quarter. But yeah, generally, people use their development time.
H.J
Okay. And what kind of facilitation do you particularly enjoy?
C.B
My favourite thing I've done in the last 12 months was when we were at the River Severn, when we did, when I have opportunities to facilitate with members of the public who are not part of the Environment Agency. And I was really fortunate, we were sort of testing a new methodology on the River Severn about adaptation pathways, they're called, so thinking about climate change and the impact of climate change, and we did something called Community panels, where we got members of the community. So an independent facilitator designed the process and needed some sort of support facilitators, and I acted as a support facilitator, and that was really, really fun. It's just a real privilege to be able to hear from members of the public who don't know anything about what the Environment Agency does, and yeah, to help them to have conversations about the environment and flood risk management, and their ideas were absolutely brilliant and really refreshing to hear. And that was, that was great, because most of my work is either internal or with partners that know the Environment Agency well. So that was something that was different for me and really stretched me as a facilitator, bringing together people that didn't know each other. We were doing it online, and, you know, I didn't know them, and it was, yeah, it was helping them to feel relaxed very quickly and heard, that was, that was really good. It was good for me as a facilitator. Good stretch.
H.J
Nice and how often, I guess, do you get to do something a little bit stretchy? Let's say that you actually learn from rather than, let's say a bit more day to day type stuff?
C.B
Probably only a couple of times a year, because it did take up quite a lot of time. It was four evenings and a whole day on a Saturday. So that's quite unique. But again, very much supported by the organisation, and was viewed as part of my development. And it was, it was a brilliant part of my development. It really blew the cobwebs off in terms of my facilitation skills. Took me out of my comfort zone, and it was really good. And I guess it would be easy not to do things like that, and it would be, you know, easier just to kind of do the day job. But where's the fun in that? You know, it really, it really helped me, and I took a lot from it back to the day job, and it reminded me about the importance of making sure people are comfortable and active listening. And it was good for me to hear how people view the Environment Agency, who don't know much about what we do. And so, you know, they came up with these brilliant ideas. Like, as an engagement person, I was able to come back in and sort of talk to people about so. But realistically, yeah, time wise, probably once or twice a year.
H.J
And how easy is it for you then to kind of just thinking about that there's different hats that you wear. How easy is it to be sort of, you know, independent facilitator versus engagement professional, and, you know, to kind of remember which hat you're wearing, I guess?
C.B
Yeah, it can be hard. I think when you're, we get quite embedded in the projects that we're working on. So I'm working on one really big project at the moment, and, you know, you have weekly calls within the technical team, and you become part of that technical team, and that's where it becomes hard to add value I think. When you're fresh and you go into a team, that's when you know you can sort of challenge in a really constructive way. So I think we just, yeah, I just I do, I need to have reflective conversations with people on a regular basis. So my manager is brilliant for that. She's quite sharp, she's really useful for me and sort of challenging me and making sure that I am still doing the job and not sort of just blending into that technical team.Because facilitators and consultants, the benefit of using independent facilitators is that they challenge on our cultural assumptions, and we have got a lot of cultural assumptions, and we do make a lot of decisions, which means that we probably sometimes can push engagement down the track a bit further than we should.
So yeah, so that's it's difficult, but yeah, using, using my manager and and also independent facilitators, that's where they can really add value. I think when we're using them on projects, it's really having really useful conversations with independent facilitators about what I'm working on, and they can give really good advice and just keep you remembering about how to challenge teams in a constructive way. But it is quite tiring. I'm not part of that team. I am there to challenge constructively, and it, yeah, can be tiring, but it's, you do get a lot of rewards as well from it, but you're not part of that team. And that's, I guess that's a bit like what it's like as a consultant, is that you're not, you're not fully part of that team. You're there to kind of help them as a team, to work well together, but not necessarily be embedded within that team.
H.J
Which definitely has its pros and cons. So thinking about then, the kind of the learning, the development, the support that you have to work as a facilitator, what kind of opportunities? I know you said you have your development days, and that you use those to do facilitation. But what else are you able to do to kind of keep your skills up and to learn more?
C.B
So we get together as a network, so we have network learning days. So we've got one next Monday, so we run those about every six months where we get the whole network together face to face. We have network days more locally, like we, me and you run one in Bristol, which is really good. And the thing I love about the Bristol one that we do with the International Association of Facilitators is it's so refreshing for the Environment Agency, half the people that come are from the Environment Agency, and half the people that come are just independent facilitators doing all sorts of facilitation across all sorts of sectors, charity sectors, you know, finance sectors all around the world. You know, some of them work in Africa and all sorts of different places. And it's really exciting meeting, and really, really good for us to to be challenged and meet people that are doing facilitation in other places, and they you know that those days are brilliant, and although only a couple of hours, probably learn more in a couple of hours than you could learn, you know, in a whole day online and things and just little conversations and testimonials and, you know, different methods that people are testing out and what's gone wrong and what's worked well. That works really well.
And the two day conference that the IAF run in April. So I went to the, I went to that for the first time two years ago, and I went last year as well. And then every year I'm bringing more and more people from the Environment Agency, because that's when I learn the most in the year is just immersing yourself in two days of just learning sessions and being exposed to people that are facilitating in really different contexts. But there's so much that we can learn from each other. So yeah, and just techniques that you just wouldn't even dream of, I just techniques that I wouldn't even dream of, you know, like last time I went, there was an amazing session about using your body and not talking, but just how you can just facilitate using movement and using your body and help with conflict resolution and different difficult conversations with people just using your body. It sounds really strange, but it was really amazing. It's really interesting.
H.J
I guess it's the same for for any of us that facilitate, we tend to do our particular thing, or even if you're an external independent facilitator, and even if you work across different sectors, you can get a little bit stuck in your own, you know, you have your preferred tools and techniques, and you use them again and again. And so any of those kind of days, you know, for me, definitely I learned so much and been to so many sessions where I think, oh, yeah, that's a thing, I've never thought about doing that. So it's definitely not just internal facilitators that have that, because I think the rest of us do as well.
C.B
Yeah, yeah, it's great, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah.
H.J
It's really nice, the Bristol meetups you mentioned, I think that is a really nice mix of, I think it's about 50-50 split, internal and external. And I'm always amazed myself at the breadth of different types of facilitation, and the more you, you know, you talk about facilitation and what you can facilitate, you know, it's actually quite a huge array. The edges are very fuzzy, but it's really nice to see all those different methods and different conversations that we have together.
C.B
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
H.J
So thinking about the actual tools and techniques and all that kind of stuff, what's the one thing that you really, really love? I know you've talked about working with the public, what's the one methodology, perhaps, or tool that you really love using? Is there one or a few? Perhaps?
C.B
So I worked on a research project called âadapting to a changing climate flooding coastâ. It's like in difficult situations where flood defence is not the answer for lots of different reasons, but there's not a straightforward, this is how we're going to manage the problem. It was a really good opportunity to take ourselves out of our comfort zones and think, what methods within, with these communities could work? Because we've not got all the answers, actually. And so we developed some more conversation based techniques. And so we did role play simulation. I think when people say role play, everybody's like, Oh, but it's a 90 minute role play simulation where everybody gets a chance to hear different perspectives. And so that was a real privilege being involved in testing that and very emotional. So things like role play simulation and those sorts of techniques that support better quality conversations. I sort of we experienced a situation where people have been working together for years and years, like the local flood Action Group and local planners, our members of staff, and people got to the point where they didn't want to go to the meetings anymore, but because it was redesigned around this role play simulation, and they all went along and took on someone else's role for 90 minutes. At the end they, it was quite emotional, and people, I think, were able to empathise and stand in the shoes of I didn't realise I was making you feel like that. And it was a building block for completely redesigning how the different stakeholders then worked together, and then they got together after the role play simulation, said, What does this mean for the way we're going to work together in the future? And it was just, it was very powerful. It wasn't very long. It's only 90 minutes, like I said, but it was just the fact that it was like a key I suppose that sort of opened up people's eyes to realise that they'd all been exhibiting behaviours that were really unhelpful if they did genuinely want to find a way forward with each other and help each other out to find solutions.
And also, everyone went to the pub afterwards, which I think also just really helped for them to see each other as human beings and to realise that it's not easy for people to just work in a professional role and take their hat off. We are all people and we, you know, we do really need to respect each other within conversations. And it was a yes, it was quite a simple technique. And in the past, I would have been one of those people as soon as you say role play simulation, I would have been one of those people that's really sceptical, but it's really changed my view on the power of standing in someone else's shoes and pretending you're that person and doing that in a safe space. So that in the last few years has probably been the technique that I think has been most powerful in helping people that are really stuck in positions and the meetings have become very adversarial and difficult, and where our staff don't want to go, the stakeholders don't want to come. You know, it's the worst situation that you sort of as a facilitator and engagement expert that you bump into more often than you'd like to. And it's trying to help people reset their relationships. And it was a really powerful technique.
H.J
Wow, it's good I guess that you have such a technique that you know definitely works in a given situation. And it sounds like those perhaps conflicting, difficult conversations do come up a bit, I guess, with the very nature of the work that you do.
C.B
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
H.J
And do you get to kind of play around much with different tools and techniques? Because I presume you've got quite a lot of time pressure to actually do the facilitation and do all the rest of the work that you need to do. Do you often fall back on tried and tested things?
C.B
Yeah, absolutely, we absolutely do fall back on tried and tested things, especially when we're doing things in-house. I think if we were, if there was a situation like that, we would use an independent facilitator to come in and help us. Even if I was doing some of the design work, I would be working alongside an independent facilitator. Yeah, I haven't done any roleplay simulation without an independent facilitator. And I think that is really worth it, and it can make a massive difference. So yes, it's recognizing those situations, I think, where something's become unproductive and difficult, mental health wise, for everybody involved, and it is worth then the investment of we need to do something different here. So we do support those situations.Most of the time,yeah, we're just using run of the mill techniques, like we love online since covid, you know, lots of online workshops, mural boards, or, you know, whiteboards that sort of thing is our go to run of the mill. What we would use all the time, slido polls, things like that. Yeah, that's just the everyday stuff that we're doing.
Although, like having to be very wary about not making assumptions about people's sort of not everybody's comfortable with using those, those sorts of techniques, you know. So having to remember that you do need, you do need to give people space to understand how to use the mural board. And I think people, yeah, so the mural boards and concept boards, whatever you use, they're brilliant, but you do have to always remember to do a little intro. It sounds really obvious, but otherwise, I think it can be a real barrier for people. Some people just don't know how to move the bits and bobs around, and just not getting too comfortable with whatever technique you're using, I think is really helpful.
There's loads and loads of techniques, and I think one of my favourite ones that I learned at the last International Association of Facilitators is like the role play simulation is a difficult technique, like, as in, difficult to design, and you need to do loads of prep. But the really quick technique that I learned was called, âI wonder ifâ, and that was a really good technique, and it's just a different way of framing things so and that can be used at any moment with even within a meeting, you know, and that thinking about how you frame questions is maybe the, maybe the use of questions and how you frame questions is the most powerful tool that we've got as facilitators, in terms of, even within a session, that can make a real difference and turn a conversation around.
H.J
And I guess, particularly when you know you can't necessarily redesign a whole session each time for every piece of work you do, and sometimes, if it's about, perhaps just making those small changes, by asking those powerful questions then, and they get you the results, much easier to focus on doing something like that than thinking about sort of grand redesign and using all sorts of different tools and all the rest of it, which is nice, and I think does keep us kind of interested. But actually, there's a question about, I suppose, who are we doing that for? Are we doing that for us as facilitators, because it's interesting, or are we doing it for the participants?
C.B
Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I love a new technique.
H.J
I was gonna just a sort of extra question, really, about that online versus in person? What's the kind of balance?
C.B
Oh, yeah, like 95% online now, I would say. We've always been really careful, I think, as an organisation in when we get people together because of the carbon footprint. So, you know, ever since I joined the Environment Agency, there's, there's always, quite rightly, does this have to be face to face? Yeah, and we obviously use the trains and things like that. And, yeah, now is, since covid, I think it's, I guess, you know, we've realised the potential of online and invested in, you know, the government, just generally, I think, has invested more in sort of tools and techniques to help us as as people working for the government that to use those sorts of tools and techniques to have more effective online meetings. So the vast majority of the comms engagement work I do on projects is online workshops, rather than bringing people face to face. And that's a big change in the last five years, because when I was working on the National Flood and coastal risk management strategy four or five years ago, we did bring stakeholders together, at key points for face to face meetings. I think if we were doing that now, a lot of that would be online, so you still have, you still have meetings with people, but you know, they're virtual, which brings its opportunities and challenges. It's more inclusive for some people, because they don't have to travel. And, yeah, it's, but it's, there's something magical about having people in a room, and that's the bit you miss.
H.J
Yeah, definitely. I was going to just pick up on the challenges bit. So I've asked you about what you enjoy about facilitation, and you know, nice, all the nice stuff, but what are the main challenges of being an internal facilitator?
C.B
I think the main challenge is, I'm working on a project where, you know, where I'm always, whatever I'm working on, when you're working on the project, and you're part of the project team and you're the engagement advisor on it, how independent can you be? And that's a challenge. And so identifying when I need to bring in another in-house facilitator, or when I need to bring in an independent facilitator is really important, and I do, I do have to do that often on the big projects I work on. So, yeah, so that's that's a challenge, is recognizing when you need that and being able to see that far enough in advance so you know, so you can plan for that.
And the other challenge, I think, is it's easy to get really busy on your day job and on your projects and that they are it is busy, and there is a lot to do,making space for me to go and be an independent facilitator for someone else, when you're really busy making space to do that as often as I can. Otherwise, I don't keep my skills fresh, and six months can go by and I realise I haven't gone and done something. I've done lots of facilitation, but I've not done anything for someone else that's completely independent of my day job. And so that's what I have to check myself on, is making sure that I am, I am still doing that, and when I do it, it's so brilliant. And that's when, like I said earlier, that's when you get taken out of your comfort zone of facilitator, which is what sharpens us up, I think. Because facilitation is hard, it is it's exhausting, but it's brilliant as well, when you have those magic moments, when people have understood, you know, understood each other better, and you've helped, by the way, you've designed that meeting and created that space. You've helped people to move forward more in a more positive way, and that's worth it.
H.J
Definitely. That's a definite similarity. I think, you know, as external facilitators, exactly the same. Well, certainly for me, you know, it's that feeling, I guess when you've you've done something right, you know it's gone well. And you know that people have come to a good place at the end, it's like, yes. Nice, big glow.
C.B
Yeah, ready for my Mars bar at the end.
H.J
Yeah. And so, I guess, last question really is, what advice would you give to anybody else that is working as an internal facilitator. Any words of wisdom?
C.B
Yes, I would say, keep taking opportunities for training, because I think formal training has its place. And I think going and doing more formal training, it's easy to sort of just do your training initially and then never do any more formal training. I think formal training has its place as facilitators. So going and regularly doing formal training. Definitely mixing with other facilitators who are not part of your organisation. So the International Association of Facilitators provides that perfect opportunity in April. It's you know, and so if you're able to go along, even if it's just for a day, not the whole thing, I think that's really helpful. And then the last thing is, as often as you possibly can, is to facilitate outside of your day job. And I know that's difficult, it's difficult to make the time, but that is, I think, where you'll build your confidence as an independent facilitator. And getting, you know, getting feedback, I guess, is the last bit that links to that other one. So yeah, that's the things I would encourage people to do.
H.J
Brilliant. Thank you. It's been brilliant to talk to you today, and thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and bits and pieces about all of your experience and all the stuff you love about facilitation.
C.B
Thank you too.
H.J
So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF, England and Wales
N.W
If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website. Facilitationstories.com
H.J
And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?
N.W
We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?
H.J
Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about?
N.W
Send us an email at [email protected] .
H.J
We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.
N.W
Until then, thank you for listening.
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This episode is one of our quarterly âChapter Chatsâ where Helene and Nikki talk to a member of the leadership team from another IAF Chapter. Todayâs guest is Jan Lelie, founder of IAF Netherlands. Outside their IAF role Jan is a facilitator with a background in experimental physics.
Key topics from the conversation include:
How Facilitation and the role of Facilitators has changed over time
What Jan has learned and continues to learn from other facilitators
âyou have to practice what you preach. When I go to an IAF conference, I will do a workshop of myself and I also work with other facilitators to see and to learn from each otherâ
How the IAF Netherlands Chapter was established
â we wanted to have a certification process, and at that time, it was only in English⊠â we were the first organization which offered certification in their mother tongue.â
Topics and themes of past IAF Netherlands conferences
The IAF Netherlands Initiative: âdiverging conversations through facilitationâ
âWe wanted to know, where did you make the difference? What was the turning point?â âa suggestion of one of our facilitators that we should have a kind of year bookâ
Ways the IAF Netherlands brings people together
A full transcript is below.
Links
Todayâs Chapter
https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/netherlands
Todayâs guest: Contact Jan by email [email protected]
To find out more about the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter
Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/
And to email us: [email protected]
IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales
The Facilitation Stories Team
Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Transcript
H.J
Hello and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. I'm Helene Jewell.
N.W
And I'm Nikki Wilson.
H.J
And this episode is one of our quarterly chapter chats, where we talk to people leading other chapters in the IAF global community. We ask them about how they see the status of facilitation where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations for their chapter. Today, we will be talking to Jan Lelie, facilitator and founder of IAF Netherlands.
N.W
So welcome Jan. So to start off with, could you tell us a little more about yourself and the work that you do Jan?
J.L
Yes, of course. Well, I facilitate, and I said, I've always facilitated. I worked for six weeks as a consultant in 1984 and then decided that it was not for me, and that any situation requires all the participants to be in the same room, in the same place, and if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. And find out actually what the problem is about. So I studied physics, experimental physics, and there I learned that the definition of the problem is part of the problem. So in most of the situations, people have a, how shall I say, the rudimentary idea of their problem, and then they start to implement a solution. And when the solution doesn't work, the solution actually becomes a problem. So you're asked to get a solution implemented which is not the solution to a problem, so it will never work. And I started out in IT, information technology and communications, and there, often IT is not a problem, it's a solution that doesn't work.
H.J
And so you have been part of the IAF for nearly 30 years, I think. How have you seen the practice of facilitation and the role of facilitators change in that time?
J.L
Well, first of all, I think that everybody facilitates. It's like everybody communicates. So facilitation, in my experience, is about making connections. It's how you connect with people, how your relationship works, and from there, and everybody connects with each other, only like with communication, nobody has been trained into effective communication and in effective facilitation. So most people work from an expert position, like a consultant or a trainer or even a moderator, and facilitation, in my opinion, is a different paradigm, a different way of dealing with relationships, and the only way to progress is to to learn from each other in working as a facilitator and facilitating. So that was one of the reasons I went to an IAF conference in London in the end of the 1990s which was organized by the IAF, and because we had a computerized brainstorming solution, we wanted to show and also I already had organized a group of what we call moderators, a network of moderators. And then I learned that what I was doing was called facilitation.
H.J
It's interesting. I think a lot of people have said that, that they, they didn't necessarily call it facilitation, or call themselves facilitators. They sort of discovered by accident that there was a name for it.
J.L
I studied biophysics, and I used to call it catalysation. And the catalysation is what most of all biological systems rely on, catalysation. And catalysation, strangely enough, means breaking the connection. So facilitation means making, to make. And Li is a very ancient word which we can recognize in the word line. And line of Li is connection. So catalysation is breaking the connection. And in my way of facilitation, I'm always being aware of how to end the relationship, how to stop the relationship. I always facilitate with the end in mind, and that's what the catalyst does. The catalyst takes one molecule and another molecule, and tries to connect them, and then steps out of it and unchanged.
N.W
And how learned over that time, and if you, if you kind of recognize that that original conference, that what you were doing was, was facilitation, what kind of other things have you picked up through being engaged with other facilitators over that time?
J.L
What I do is practice makes perfect. So you have to practice what you preach. When I go to an IAF conference, I will do a workshop of myself and I also work with other facilitators to see and to learn from each other. Nowadays, at the conference we took about a quarter of an hour after a session, during IAF conference, to reflect on the session itself. What went well? What did you do? What can you do differently? And I think that is basically how I work. So it's still, I'm still doing training and courses, and then also what we learn together. I always say I cannot teach you anything. I can only facilitate your learning. And that's how I approach facilitation. Also, I try to be a facilitatorâs facilitator. This might sound strange, but I will say the universe is my teacher. So the universe is very kind, and they offer you lessons. And the problem is that you, as I said, you cannot see the lesson until it appears, and then it's always in the resistance. So when you feel resistance against something, it's probably something you need to learn. And that is also what makes facilitation for most people very, I shall say, difficult or awkward, is that you have to deal with the resistance of a group or the situation, and let it be, not try to solve anything, but just like to see how it works out. If you see what I mean. Like I said, the universe doesn't have an agenda. So sometimes the lesson comes too early. Then you learn something, and you think, okay, thank you. And then sometimes the lesson comes too late. So then after two or three years, you realize, okay, this session, I happen to speak to a colleague facilitator yesterday, and she has problem in managing her team. And she said, it's difficult. And then I asked, What kind of difficulty? Is it difficulty? And then we remember suddenly a session we did, like 4, 5 years ago, what was a very simple technique by a Korean facilitator who I've invited of making bracelets of your, of what you find difficulty, and then put them on your arms and on your legs, or wherever you feel the difficulties, and then sit with them for some times, and then have a conversation with others who are also sitting with their difficulties and dealing with that. And that's where I work. You know, you get this, this method or this tool, and then you think, okay, just the opportunity will arise.
N.W
Oh, excellent. I love that idea of sort of collecting things that you might use in the future, but not necessarily knowing where they will, where the need for them will emerge. I think that's probably something that a lot of us do, but not always consciously. So that, I love that example. It's great.
H.J
I just want to think a bit or ask a bit more about that, the whole sort of community element, I suppose. And thinking about IAF and the IAF Netherlands and ask a little bit more about that. So you're current and past chair of IAF Netherlands, but prior to that, you were IAF Benelux. Can you tell us a little bit about how the chapter was established?
J.L
Yes, in the, well in 1990s I met John and Maureen Jenkins. And Maureen had been, or was, was becoming Chair of IAF world, and they happened to work in the Netherlands, and they organized a conference in Amersfoort here in the Netherlands, and I joined the conference together with some colleagues. And during the conference, we decided that we should have a Dutch network of facilitators, and we started to create a foundation called IAF Benelux. And it was in a time when IAF didn't have any chapters, it was just IAF world, and you became part of what, in my opinion, was an American organization, and then we, well, we founded this, this, this network, and we organized events. I think the most important thing is what we did is local events,and a yearly conference and also I went to the to European conferences. But the main thing for most Dutch people is they like to work in Dutch. And that is the other thing we organized from the IAF Benelux, we wanted to have a certification process, and at that time, it was only in English, but as that's been established by Dutchman, and there were some Dutch speaking assessors. We use the English process to have people certified in in Dutch and here in the Netherlands, we were the first organization which offered certification in their mother tongue.
H.J
Um, and that's for the Certified Professional facilitator accreditation
J.L
Yes, and I think we had about 100 or so certified facilitators here in the Netherlands at some time, because we did it together with the yearly conference, we had a certification event, and also we had separate certification event. At a certain time I think we had two every year. And beside that, we organized events, like I said, I like to meet other facilitators and to work together and to explore our way of working. And John and Maureen at that time, were very, as I said, supportive of the, of it. I think Maureen is one of the best facilitators in the world. He's one of a kind. So, and that's what worked for a couple of years, six or seven, eight years. And then IAF organized itself into chapter structures, and we had to become an association. So we, we terminated the foundation and became IAF Netherlands and for again, about, I think, 7,8,9 years. But the problem I always said with associations is that you have all these things about membership, and I think that association is not the best fit for a network of facilitators, because it creates expectations about what IAF does. So people usually ask me, okay, what is IAF going to do for me? And I said, Well, nothing. I'm not your mother. You have to facilitate yourself. We're here to facilitate you. But people kind of expect us to do things for them, and I was resisted that so, but I must say, I'm an exception. So most of my fellow board members, they were very kind, and they organized things, and they made memberships at everything. And I'm not that good in organizing things, you know.
H.J
I guess that's true of lots of people, though, isn't it? So some people are natural organizers, and some people just want to go and do whatever the facilitation or the, you know, take part in things. And sounds like a, it's a good job that you have that mix in the chapter.
J.L
Yeah, and I also said I'm the worst chair in the world, you know, because I facilitate, I don't share anything. So, but in the end, because the problem with a board is, in my opinion, that you shouldn't have people in the board for eternity. So we made the decision that you could only be two times three years in the board, and then you have to leave the board. So gradually the board of the IAF changed, and then many of the board members became frustrated, because when you organize a conference, not many people show up. I think that is only natural with facilitation, because it's the diversity of facilitators is too wide to have a common ground. That may sound strange, but in my opinion, we don't have a common ground. We don't have anything in common except that we call ourselves facilitators, and that is not enough to have a professional association. I personally always say a facilitation is not a profession, it's a calling.
N.W
And so I mean, I suppose, bearing that in mind, despite some of the challenges of finding some common ground, you have hosted 12 conferences, I think, over the past sort of 30 years, while you've been involved. So what have been some of the topics or themes that the conferences have been about and that you've brought together people around?
J.L
Well, usually, I collect a small group of people, and we have a conversation about, or a facilitated meeting about what, what could be the theme of the conference. So we did a conference of, do, do the nothing, or in, in the Dao, it's called the way Wu wei. So it's, it's like do nothing, and it's very difficult for facilitators not to intervene, but sometimes it's very important not to intervene, so be there and be aware of what happens, and notice that you should let things go as they were, and only wait until you
are invited to intervene. So we did a conference about that. We did a conference of sedators carries on. So I think it's in England it's a set of movies, carry on movies.
N.W
Yeah, quite a different facilitation, I think in my memory, but yes.
J.L
No, but it's also what we do. You know, you just carry on.
N.W
yeah, too true.
J.L
and also like things that like, Oh, what do you do when you don't know what to do? This is also an interesting theme. And we also did a thing on facilitating with the brain in mind. So at that time, about 10, 15 years ago, a brain facilitation was coming up. So I just invited facili, we just invited facilitators to have a meeting together, so and bring the knowledge or the experience together. And then we also did something about like serious facilitation, which is also very funny, facilitation, seriously.
H.J
It sounds like there's definitely a bit of a theme just listening to you talk around facilitators needing to sort of step back a bit and not get too stuck in. And I do recognize that that kind of feeling, that sometimes you feel as a facilitator, that you need to do something.
J.L
The other issue with facilitation is that you always have to work from a perspective and a meet up perspective. You have to be aware of your awareness. So you have to be aware of the metaphor which is being used. So people talk in metaphors, but you have to take the metaphor literally and not figuratively, and that is, and that is very hard to do, to see yourself in a situation and be aware of your situation and at the same time, how should I say, control your behavior or or inhibit that's also a thing which is important, that you are inhibited. In my opinion, I will say that your timing is more important than your method. So we are also always focused on to methods and techniques which are important. You know, you I know about every method and technique in the world, but at the same time, the timing is more important so you can use the wrong method and still have the right timing and get the results. Where, if you have a good methods, but your timing is wrong, then it won't work. And then people start to think, Okay, I should know this method better, but now it's not in the method its in your timing. And in my interventions, I always try ,and then when we do is also about when we're training, to be late in your intervention, a bit laid back so you can see your intervention coming, at least I can do it, and then I say, Okay, let's wait for some time and see if I'm right. You have to be aware of your assumptions. Yeah, that's it. And that's also in physics, you know, that's what I'm mean, to be, to be aware of your assumptions about what is needed and first test your assumptions before you act on it. That's, I think, how you should define your meta perspective. So whatever happens in a group, you make an assumption, okay, I think they are stuck. And then you say, okay, What sign do I have that they are stuck? Okay, well, they're quarreling, yeah, but quarreling doesn't mean they are stuck. It can also be very constructive. You know, one of the times as an example, I was a co facilitator with a facilitator, and people only in a group were disagreeing with each other, and they asked me, What should we do? I said, Well, just let the disagreement continue. Disagreement is good, and only when you're called in to, to facilitate, then you come as a facilitator. And and this is very hard to do, because you want to keep, to care for the group. Do you want to people to be constructive and to have people sometimes they have to disagree with each other. And only when you're asked to intervene, you intervene.
N.W
Yes, I think there's something really interesting there about, as you said, the timing, and kind of maybe leaving it a little bit longer than you'd be tempted to, just because sometimes then something more emerges that you might not have assumed would happen. And, yeah, really interesting.
H.J
Okay, thinking of time and moving on, just so we make use of the time we have. I just, I wanted to ask a little bit about the book that you co wrote, co authored. And this was, I think, one of the initiatives of your chapter, the IAF Netherlands chapter, and it was called diverging conversations through facilitation. And I think it's got 24 different case studies from different facilitators. And I just really wanted to find out a little bit more about that.
J.L
It was actually a suggestion of one of our facilitators that we should have a kind of year book. So every year a book about facilitation. And so I invited a group of facilitators to brainstorm about it, and I asked them to bring one of their favorite books, one book that inspired them. And then everybody introduces themselves using their book they brought. And then we looked at the qualities of the book, and then we make a list of the qualities about the book on facilitation, and then it was, they came off. So okay, we should have concrete cases about what you do as a facilitator, where you make the difference. It should have a strict format of four pages with two pictures, but not use the actual pictures, which make them into a line drawing, because you can read line drawings easier than pictures. And also they don't age. So pictures age, and then it should have a, shall I say, the preface, and a reflection on the on the book, and, and then we made this the chapters like, Okay, what did the client say? What was your situation? what was the core question? What did you do as a facilitator? And then away, actually, where did you make the difference as a facilitator? And then what was your result? And then a reflection on your session. And then we edited all the and then we asked people first of time in the Netherlands, we did the thing in the Netherlands, first called the book, was âFacilitation Made Easyâ. And we just invited people who came to the conference or in our networks to submit cases and asked their clients if they were okay with that their case was used. And also we checked the actual cases, and then we edited them for for, how should I say it, that they all look the same. And also, when you ask a facilitator what they do, you get a long story about the I did this and this and then I did, but that was not interesting. We wanted to know, where did you make the difference? What was the turning point, or the the Blue Note way, what was, what was, what you did, the counterpoint in your session? And then we sent them back to them, and what do you think about it? And then when they agreed, we put them in the book. And then, and it was very clever. I think we made, we decided to print like 2000 copies, but you could have your own cover sheet. So you could buy 50 or 100 with your own organization on the front and on the back, with and, and these were the sponsors of the book. So they paid, actually, they paid the fixed cost for making a book, publishing the book, even before we had to sell it, because they have already and they got a very low price for the 50 or 100. So our company might at work, ordered 100 and there were several other organizations, most of them organization for facilitators who bought 50 or 100 copies in the pre-sales. And I had my book published by Helling here in the Netherlands about facilitation, which is actually a meta praxis. And then it was in the Netherlands it was a huge success, and I introduced it at an IAF Europe conference. And then we decided to create the international version, and we translated the 12 international cases from the Netherlands, because a lot of us work in other countries and than in the Netherlands, and we invited facilitators from England, from Germany, from Japan, from North Africa, to add their cases. And we use the same format, and we added a glossary of terms, because then suddenly you notice that when we use the same word, we are saying different things. And we published that book, and our basic idea at that time was to make it one yearly or two yearly event and use the cases from the IAF award, let's say, as a format. We proposed it to the board, but we never heard anything about our proposal, again. One of the other things a facilitator could only buy two copies. So you bought one for yourself, and want to give away.
H.J
Nice. I think I have a copy actually. So yeah.
N.W
And from all of those different global case studies, are there any sort of key themes or lessons that came out of those, or any particular case studies that stood out for you?
J.L
Yes, several. I think the case from Maureen Jenkins is very interesting because he worked with a congregation of nuns in Roman and international organization, which is actually very huge, but they have to change their way of working, and since it is very natural. And also, I like the case by Marlin Moran from Sweden, because in that case it is actually, it's a very short case, which actually, which is very often the case in many problem situations that people have different, how should I said, meanings of the same word. So in this case, it's about teamwork, but and the teamwork didn't work because they, the CEO, didn't think they were a team. They were working as a team, and it just happened that they had different definitions of the way of teamwork, some thinks, okay, it's a month or the weekly meeting. And also now we should pull together as a team we should share those. And Marlin noticed that and then made that as an intervention. And so this is also the cases that you start out with a certain assumption about what is the case, and then suddenly notice that there's a completely different problem or situation which is not being discussed and which should be on the forefront of the meeting. And I think this is one of the red threads, the one of ,what they have in common, that you are able to change your assumptions on what is happening while in the meeting. So of course, it's very difficult because you have prepared your script and or if you have your agenda and you want to stick to the agenda, but actually your own, I will say, you only got your agenda to know where you differ from your agenda. Plans are nothing. Planning is everything. So you've got a plan. I'm very, almost very well prepared for my sessions, but most of the times, in the first quarter an hour or first half an hour, the plan goes out of the window.
H.J
I really like that plan. Plans are nothing. Planning is everything. I think I might, I might take that as a quote.
J.L
yeah, and you have to be able to replan your session during session, and that is why you have to. So only when you are well prepared you can improvise, because that gives you the certainty that you have thought this and and the ability to let go of your preparation when the need arises, when the situation asks you to. By the way, I learned it from a very good facilitator. She once came to my training. You did the brown
N.W
and so thinking about, obviously, you've talked about the book and the conferences. What other ways do you sort of bring people together in IAF Netherlands? what other kinds of activities have you run? Or do you currently run?
J.L
Well, strangely enough,we had to dissolve the association, so we are now kind of a kind of open network, which I run through meetup, and I only organize one meeting a year, and still the meetup starts to grow and grow and grow. So we go from 300 or under 300 to over 500 now. And I sometimes ask people, okay, what you want me to organize, to facilitate, and then I get no response. So I don't know, you know, let's see. I'm hoping to do something in September about facilitation.
H.J
And do you have any particular you know, What do you think will happen in the future? So at the moment, it sounds like it's sort of loosely organized network of meetups. Or, as you say, you know, you put one meetup on a year. What are you hoping for the future?
J.L
Well, what I've seen, what this happened, has happened in the Netherlands, is that there are several networks now, or facilitators, most of them are organized in a company and around a certain method or a certain tool, like Open space or Agile or Facilitation Academy. And in most of those, future center. And in most of those networks, people participate, who used to be in the IAF network. And I sometimes talk to them and say, why don't you come to the IAF meetings? And then say, well, we don't need an international association. So they are like local organizations for local meetings. And I think it's that's I think I see myself, like as a catalyst. And also in the IAF Meetup group, most of the participants are non Dutch speakers, but they work with consultancy agency or, yeah, or they are self employed in networks as a trainer or a consultant. They don't call themselves facilitators, and I expect that after some time, we will start doing more meetings or sessions on facilitation. But then, you know, this is just my way of organizing. So I don't organize much. I like just things. Things happen all by themselves. They don't need me to to happen and only when you when I'm asked to do something, I do something, that may seem strange, but I think that most of, actually all change processes happen by themselves through everything, even before open space, I thought everything that happens is the only thing that can happen and the people who come are always the right people. You know, I did sessions at an international IAF conference, and only one person showed up at my workshop. And, okay, let's have a one person workshop. And she's still very fond of it. Since I met her again, she's from Turkey. She still remembers that workshop that sometimes you know you your workshops are crowded to 40, 50 people. Okay, your framing creates your situation. So when you frame yourself as an association, you've got Association problems, and I can say blindly, which they are. You have to tend to take care of your members. The members expect you. You have to have a board, and your board will indefinitely expand. You have a certification events, and the certification will also proliferate. You get like a master certificate and a beginner certificate, I already predicted that this is a normal way of working. And as I said, facilitation is not a normal way of working. We are exceptional people ,work in an exceptional situation.
N.W
Okay, well, I mean, I think there's a really lovely sort of emergent theme, kind of running through the conversation today, which I think it's more about, as you, you said earlier on, about the kind of ,the universe, I think, and how that shifts, and maybe that's how the future of the chapter might emerge and sort of respond. So I think we've had a really great conversation today, Jan thank you so much for your time. If listeners are in the Netherlands, where should they look? You mentioned the meetup, where can they find out more?
J.L
Yeah, the IAF Netherlands meet up.
N.W
Okay, so is there a website they need to look for?
J.L
It's a Facilitator Meetup Netherlands facilitated by IAF Netherlands it's called.
N.W
Okay
J.L
And there are now 5579 members.
N.W
Brilliant. And what about if people would like to get in touch with you directly. Where's the best place to find you?
J.L
Well, you can use it through the facilitator meetup by IAF Netherlands, or send me an email. [email protected]
N.W
Great. Thank you so much.
H.J
Thank you so much. Jan, it's been really interesting talking to you, and I'd love to chat more, but for today's podcast, thank you very much.
J.L
Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, lovely to talk with you.
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Manglende episoder?
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In this episode Nikki talks to Claire Pearce about Journaling and Writing. Claire is a writer and facilitator who runs journaling and writing workshops and she also has her own radio show.
They talk about:
Why Journaling is a powerful too that facilitators could use themselves;
âExternalising the internal is probably my favourite expression to describe itâ
Claire's journey with journaling and how it has changed for her;
How to start journaling and writing regularly;
âI think just start really small is my main bit of adviceâ
How Journaling can be applied in facilitation work with groups;
â It's kind of like whatever people share they're ultimately sharing something about being humanâ
The writing activities that Claire uses in facilitation;
Facilitation tools and frameworks such as the GROW model.
A full transcript is below.
Links
Todayâs guest:
http://ClairePearce.uk
To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter:
Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/
And to email us: [email protected]
IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales
The Facilitation Stories Team:
Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
TranscriptN.W
Hello, and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson and today I'm going to be talking to Claire Pearce. So welcome, Claire.
C.P
Hello, Nikki, thank you for having me.
N.W
No problem. So first of all, um, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?
C.P
Okay, so I do lots of things, which I've, I've begun to reconcile myself with. So in terms of journaling, and writing, I run journaling and writing workshops. One workshop I do is more about just writing for fun. And I call it writing for fun, even though it's sort of morphed out of journaling, I'm using prompts and things to get people just to write freely and have a bit of fun with it, and see where their pen goes, which is great for if people are sort of blocked or just want to have a bit of fun writing, heaven forbid. And then the other leg is more sort of self help, I suppose. So I do a monthly workshops that has a theme, like in January, I always do my, what's your theme workshop? So what's your theme for the year? So we reflect back and we look forward and sort of develop a theme or get to something near a theme. So it's that kind of thing. So there's the two different kinds. But yes, they are all with the idea of getting people writing because fundamentally, whether you write, journal or something in between, it's all good for you. At least it is for most people.
N.W
And beyond that, obviously, I know you also as a facilitator. So is there anything else that you want to say about your facilitation?
C.P
I guess, yeah, I do freelance research work. I really enjoy it. I love sort of learning about something completely new, kind of going, Oh, wow, this is interesting. And yeah, so I do that as well. And I do do an odd bit of coaching. And I do have my own radio show. But that is obviously a voluntary,not obviously. But it is a voluntary thing that I do, because I love it. What else Oh, and I write, I've written a few books, I'm writing a few more. And I'm just getting into copywriting. It's going to be another string to my bow, because I've realised I really enjoy it. So yes, lots of things, I'll probably be something else the next time I speak to you.
N.W
I know that's that feeling Claire, don't worry. But today, we are going to be talking about journaling and writing.Both are something that facilitators might do on a personal level, also as an approach that we could use with groups. So thinking first of all about on an individual level, what is it that you feel makes journaling and writing so powerful?
C.P
Externalising the internal is probably my favourite expression to describe it. And that's exactly what it does. And you know, I'm trying to find a way to capture that thing. You know, when people say a problem shared is a problem halved or whatever , there's something so true about that. And whilst it's not as powerful as speaking to a person, because that is the ultimate, you know, if you're struggling with something, or even if you just want to offload doing it with another person, there is something about the energy, I think, that passes out of you to somebody else that's different than if you write it down. But writing it down is the next best thing. And you can do it 24/7, because you've always got a pen and a piece of paper to hand. So you're not having to rely on it, I suppose it is a bit about self reliance, probably a part of my own personal journey with it. But yeah, just getting stuff out so that you can see it in a different way, you get a different perspective. And yeah, it just makes you feel better. And you can, you know, see things that you wouldn't have thought if you had just kept it in your head, you know, it stops the spin cycle. It helps you get a bit of respite, if you know if something is whizzing around in your head like that tumble dryer type effect. It gives you a bit of respite from that. And like I say, you look at it, and you get some different perspective. And just the energy of writing it, getting it out of you releases something, I think.
N.W
Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. Listeners won't know but I'm a regular in your workshops, and really kind of learned the power of journaling over the past year and a half, two years. I think there's also something about the kinds of patterns spotting where I've probably identified things that come up again and again and again. And I have no idea that they were quite so regularly going to be coming up, you know, like, I knew that they'd been niggling away for a while. But when I look back, I think, oh, you know, how is that theme or things related to it continue to resurface, then there's a chance to kind of dig deeper into that.
C.P
And also, depending on how you use journaling, and like you say, if you're the sort of person who will look back and reflect over a period of time, there's so much you can learn. You know, you can see you're likely to see themes and recurring patterns and recurring dynamics and start to see, oh, there's a one common thing here and that's me. So it's not saying everything's my fault, but it's starting to see that there's something about the way I'm reacting or creating something, you know, that is relevant. And yeah, but there's, there's so many benefits, we could spend probably hours talking about all the benefits.
N.W
And so I mean, what's been your own journey with journaling? Have you always journaled or is it something that you've particularly found that has evolved over recent years?
C.P
It's definitely evolved. I probably started journaling properly about, I'm gonna say 10 years ago, without overthinking it too much. But I was in therapy at the time. And my therapist recommended, it was called something like freeform writing for therapeutic something another at the Gestalt centre. I think she still runs it, actually. And I thought, Oh, she's just trying to get a course out of me. I was quite cynical, honestly, because I just thought, oh, writing is not my thing. Because my sister was always the writer and I was more sort of arty, whereas we've swapped which is really interesting over the years. So I went to this writing thing, thinking a bit, feeling a little bit. And I absolutely loved it. And I use some of what I experienced in that workshop as my inspiration for the way I run workshops, because there's a lot of pair work, and it's all about just getting stuff down and sharing it because we're all the same underneath. We've all got the same neuroses and anxieties, and, you know, hopes and dreams, you know, we're not as different as we think we are. And when you share with people, which is what I do in my workshops with the journaling, it's amazing how people connect, and it's almost like I can, I can see the relief sometimes with people where they're like, oh, it's not just me, you know, whatever it is. Sorry, back to my journey. So yeah, I did that a weekend and I just loved it. I made everybody I knew do writing with me, free writing, I suppose, essentially where you just let go into the pen and just keep going. And then I started the workshops. But yeah, so on a personal level, it was just that weekend, the stuff you know, and I always talk about stuff with a little asterisk, which is just all the pent up, unprocessed, unfelt, unacknowledged feelings, emotional responses, you know, all this stuff in me that had nowhere to go, I didn't even know it didn't have anywhere to go. But I realised during that weekend of writing, it's like oh wow there's stuff that needs to come out here. It was really dark. And there was a lot of swearing, and but it was all, you know, you could kind of just go for it. And I really got into it after that. So I'd say that was you know, I had a diary when I was a kid. But it was so dull. I kept one page of it just to remind me how dull it was. I had tea, I went to bed, went to school. It was so dull, I didn't get it. So yeah, and like you say, evolve it, you know, it has really evolved my journaling. And funnily enough, recently, I was reflecting, I haven't journaled anywhere near as much in the last year or so, but I've written a lot more. And I've sort of realised that my journaling has more evolved into writing. So I get the same, I think I get the same thing out of writing that I did out of journaling, it has definitely changed over time. Yeah.
N.W
And so for any facilitators listening who haven't tried journaling before, or perhaps are doing it but aren't aware they're doing it, what would you suggest in terms of getting started, you know, just having a go?
C.P
Well if they're doing it, and they're not aware they're doing it, then they don't need to do anything, I'd say. It doesn't really matter, I don't think what you call it. If you, if people haven't tried it, there's a few ways in, one of them is just to pick a, first of all, pick a time that works for you, don't try and do it, don't sort of fall into that, oh, I should be able to get up in the morning and at least do half an hour, you know, that never works. So find a time that works for you. It could be on the hoof, you know, it could be like five minutes at lunchtime if you have a lunchtime. So just a time that works for you, just pick you know, think tomorrow when is going to be a good time and pick that moment. And then just write for five minutes. Maybe just write about how the day has been so far. Just just to get started. I mean, a really good prompt is âI noticedâ and Nikki, you would have heard me use that before in workshops. But it's a really interesting one because it's completely different. If you just write what did I do today, or it brings up completely different things I notice. So I noticed as a good prompt, I guess it depends what people want to get out of it. Because I'd say whilst ultimately just pick up a pen and write some stuff down. If you're wanting to journal in a way like you do, where you write over a period of time and then you review back and you're looking to learn about yourself or you know your habits, how you do things and learn about where you can make your life easier, really, I'm not going to say improved because I think we're all fine just as we are. But then that's a very different. You might want to be a bit more regular and a little bit more, I'm going to leave it for a month and then I'm going to look back and see what's there. Personally for me, the journaling I've done the most is what I call medicinal journaling, which is basically in the moment. So if you're feeling stressed or anxious or angry, anything that's a bit difficult. I mean some people find excitement difficult so let's throw that in there as well. You know that in the moment ,what's going on? Why am I feeling anxious? Sometimes we don't know. So that's when I am most likely to pick up my journal or get my phone out if I'm out and about and type, you know, just type it in and just describe it. You know, where is it in your body, how you feeling? What's going on? Just what's going on in your life because it can be so obvious sometimes, but you don't see it always. But when you start writing it down, it will pop up. And you'll go, Oh, yes, that's what this is about. So that's really helpful to know. Because then you can do something about it. So medicinal. But then, you know, I say that I started doing that after I had journaled more regularly. So maybe, maybe it's not easy to start with that? I don't know. But yeah, I think it does depend on what you want to journal for. But yeah, I think just start really small is my main bit of advice, because if I had a penny for everybody who said, I can do at least half an hour, and I can get up a bit earlier, that's not much to ask, well, but it's the same with any habit and you don't do it, you might do it for a few days, but then you'll stop. And then you'll feel bad because you've stopped and then you won't do it again. So start with a minute, you know, literally just go a minute in the morning and just go, how am I feeling today? Just name it.
N.W
And I think there's definitely something powerful about getting started as well, actually finding the minute to put the pen to the page, sometimes it then becomes an hour and you hadn't realised, but you would never have intentionally carved out an hour to do it. It's just that once it starts Oh, I can't stop now, maybe that's just me, but.
C.P
Yeah, no, that's absolutely what happens. But if you said, you said I'm going to do an hour, you'd be like, Oh, God, I don't want to do that. That's too much. I've got too much to do, blah, blah, blah.
N.W
And so thinking more about our roles as Facilitators, and working with groups, I mean, obviously, you've you've mentioned pair work already. But often we're in a situation where we're trying to get people to talk to each other and to interact better. So with that in mind, why would you encourage Facilitators to consider bringing writing activities into a group situation?
C.P
Well, I guess the most obvious place, I would think it would be a great thing would be in a sort of icebreaker context. Because I just think, you know, I've been on lots of workshops, and I've run lots of workshops. And you know, and, and so is everybody listening to this, and so have you, you know, and good ice breaking is so powerful, can change the whole session, whatever, whatever it is. And for me, when people turn up, one of my favourite exercises is what I call âThe Whine Barâ, which I think you've done, which is just to have a good moan and a good whine about anything in your life, just get it all out. Because I think this is half the problem. We don't allow ourselves to be honest, even with ourselves. And I think journaling has really helped me with that actually going back to your earlier question. So really kind of just getting stuff out. So that's a nice thing to do. Because it just allows people, it's kind of going you're allowed to be human here, I think, I mean I didn't plan it. I didn't think about it before I did this exercise. But on reflection, I think that's part of it. So it's a real, you're allowed to be human, you're allowed to moan. Doesn't mean you're gonna dwell in it for the rest of the session or whatever, but you're just allowed to get it out. And then by putting people in pairs to share, and I always invite people to either share what they wrote, or just talk about how it was because not everybody wants to do that, obviously. And there's just, I think it's, there's just something magical that happens, because when people come back, and I see their faces in person as well, people have such an energy, most, you know, 99% of the time. And you can see they shared something with their fellow human being. Even I mean, I don't know, because I don't get to hear what people say to each other. But it's just that humaneness. It's kind of like whatever people share they're ultimately sharing something about being human, whether it's like, oh God, I felt like it was, like I say, so it's that whole it wasn't just me that, you know, is crazed about the election, or, you know, whatever, or that feels like I'm gonna lose my mind on a daily basis, or whatever it is. And that privacy of the pair, which again, I know, I don't need to tell this to this audience, because you'll all know about, you know, the individual, you know, if you put people in threes, they just won't share as much and somebody could still not talk. Whereas pairs, people have to say something, even if it's, I don't want to say anything. And there's something about that that's liberating. It's kind of like, Yeah, you don't have to fine. So I just, yeah, like I say, when I see those faces, when people come back, it's a beautiful thing. And, and they've just shared something more than, you know, knocking about an idea. And I don't think there's any context that is out of bounds for that, I guess, if you're dealing with people, maybe where people are struggling with mental health, for example, if you knew, if it's an explicit situation where that's being talked about or worked on, I guess you would kind of maybe approach it slightly differently. I probably still do the same kind of thing, but maybe in a slightly different way. But so I think it's really powerful for that and as we work through a workshop, you know,it just continues to do that same thing. People are seen and heard, you know, and people can go a whole year without being seen and heard and you know, immediately even if it's irrelevant to the topic, I think that's the thing as well. It's just the magic of that being seen and heard and listened to and witnessing somebody else, you know, you get to witness somebody else and realise, again, that we're all human and flawed, worried we're getting it wrong, desperate to get it right, all of that nonsense, you know, we realise that it's not just us.
N.W
What is it you say about kind of starting that with some writing rather than just saying, you know, have a good whine to your partner, whatever? What is it about the writing part of it that you think particularly allows for those, that kind of opening up?
C.P
Yeah, that's a good question. So I think when you write stuff down, you can just be much more honest than if you were speaking out loud. You know, if I asked you a question, and you gave me the answer, or I said to you write down what you think about, you're going to be much more, again, 99%, the time you're going to be, everyone's going to be much more honest, in what they write down on a piece of paper, because it's private, it's for them. And I always say to people, you know, write it for yourself, first decide afterwards, if you want to share any of it or not. So it is it's that honesty, it's that, you know, and I can still, I can still edit myself and journal. And I think we might have even had this conversation, but it's still possible to completely be editing yourself, but to suddenly realise I'm still editing what I think and what I'm allowed to say. And journaling does give you that freedom and just think you're gonna, you're going to be more honest. And then when you share it, you're more likely to sort of take a bit of a risk. And people are often quite surprised by what they write down, things that they haven't seen will come out. So people want to share that, they want to go Oh, God, I can't believe I wrote that. I can't believe that, I thought I dealt with that thing. But here it is. And it's, they want to share what surprised them, I think.
N.W
And so you've talked about the wine bar,as a kind of opener activity. What other sort of favourite activities do you have that you use with groups?
C.P
Well, as you well know, âwhat does the radiator think?â is probably my favourite, which is where we use dialoguing, which is a journaling technique. It's so powerful and maybe you can say something about your experience. So let's say we've just written about, let's go to the New Year workshop, and you've just written about the year gone by and reflected on this that and the other. And then I'll invite you to sort of go pick an object, and I'm sitting here looking and there's, I'm at my friend's house, he's got lots of gold animals. That's a whole nother story. Anyway, there's a golden parrot sitting there on this lamp, you know, and I might choose, you know, you just pick an object that you kind of are drawn to. And then I'll say right now what does the parrot think about what you've just written. So now I write as if I'm the parrot having just observed me writing about what I've just written about. And it just you have to try it if you're listening, because it's just endlessly useful. And you could literally, every object in your room, every inanimate object in your room, a door, a lamp, ironing board, it doesn't matter what it is, but you'll get something different from each of those things. And a good example of that, is when people pick plants, or trees or flowers, they tend to have like a nurturing voice. So it accesses this nurturing part of them that is always there. Of course, it's always there, but they wouldn't have found that bit of them in another way. I mean, there probably are other ways to find that, but it's just a really quick and easy way. So people will be giving themselves this amazing advice that's going to help them from a plant sitting on their desk. And then they're kind of going oh yeah, I can do this for myself, you know, and it's, it's so powerful. And the perspectives that one gets, I mean, a really good example of this, and it might be a little bit personal, but it was so good that I just have to share it. So I have this whole fantasy family where and it's a really good thing to do for journaling actually where you just pick people who would be your ideal uncle or your ideal grandparents or whatever, cousin ,second cousin, I've got a whole load. And that's just a fun thing to do anyway, it's like a game I made up one Christmas I think just like fantasy family, who would they be? And then I've a few times I've used them in journaling as another dialoguing thing because obviously you don't know those people but you know if you've picked somebody you're familiar with. So Charles and Caroline from Little House on the Prairie are my fantasy parents, probably everybody's fantasy parents assuming people know who they are. So the other day I was really struggling, I've, you know, we've all got these situations where it's just there's no easy answer sometimes and you have to sort of accept there's nothing I can do about this right now. I just have to be within. So I wrote to Caroline and Charles. So what should I do, like what I didn't really say that much about the situation but what should I do? And they replied, and Caroline just went,the mother obviously, she just went go lie down dear, go upstairs and lie down for a bit. Just forget about it. And I was and I know that sounds so simple, because I've had much more complicated and fascinating dialogues with characters but it was exactly what I needed. I just needed to be told just stop, just stop. And that was the end of that conversation. I didn't need anything else. It was like, oh, yeah, and it was so, so useful. So it's just got so many potential uses from something, you know, like that to, to getting the radiator to say to you, you know, you're over worrying about this, just get a grip. Or, whatever it is, you know. And in fact, what was it the other day? Oh, it was something Yeah, it was the radiator. It was something about that the radiator was saying, you know, I'm stuck here on the wall, I can't do anything, I can't go anywhere, but you can, but you feel the same as me. And you know, something like that. It's just kind of like Oh god yeah, there's a real, it really helps to pin down that feeling. Obviously, you can relate that into whatever your session is about. You can play around with it. Let's say you're facilitating something about a strategy for a business, you know, you can ask the business what it thinks. So you could get everybody to talk about it, write about it, whatever about it, and then go right now think about the business, the product, what does the product think, and again, the stuff that can come out of that just can be amazing. So it's got no bounds, that exercise and I will never tire of talking about how fabulous it is.
N.W
In fact, some listeners, if they were there, might remember the very first time I encountered that specific exercise was in an IAF conference workshop.
C.P
Oh, yes.
N.W
We were in the depths of lockdown.
C.P
Yes, we were.
N.W
My lovely radiator was very kind to me and said, you know, that it could see me kind of struggling away being stuck on my own computer. And you know, all of the different things I was doing. And I mean, it sounds, it feels crazy to talk about it in this way. But I would say that it just gave that different perspective. And I think one of the things that I do more regularly, like one of the activities I would do in journaling, is more of a kind of dialoguing now, but it's even more like a conversation with myself. So I'm imagining there's somebody else there going, So why is that? You know, could you tell me a bit about that? You know, again, it sounds like talking to yourself, but
C.P
It kind of is? Yeah, it kind of is really it's kind of, but it's a much more sort of constructive way to talk to yourself.
N.W
Yeah and to work through things I think as well. Like it's progressive, isn't it, it helps me certainly get out of a loop. And I can imagine, as you said, in a business scenario, or you know, work scenario, you can get quite entrenched in your own role in something and actually pulling in that different perspective and going, you know, what does the customer think? What does the factory think? Whatever it is just kind of shakes that up a little bit. Okay. So then, I mean, we've talked quite a lot there about different things that a facilitator could do to introduce some writing into their workshops. Have you got any sort of thoughts or advice on how to convince clients that it's a good idea? You know, if you've got any suggestions for that?
C.P
Do you mean in terms of a proposal for a workshop?
N.W
Yeah, like giving an outline or getting people to buy into it once you're in, in that scenario?
C.P
But well I think that I'm not sure I'm gonna cleanly answer this question. But I can tell you that if you're in the situation, and you're already there, it's kind of, I mean, again, I think the whole, you know, I've read quite a lot about sort of with mental health and writing and well being and that kind of thing. And you do have to be a bit more careful. But I think as long as you name everything, it's fine. But I did a team building workshop with some pharmaceutical sales reps who were not impressed when it was announced that I was there to do some writing journaling with them, there was lots of folded arms. And it was quite a scary looking room. But I thought, Well, I haven't got anything else so this is what we're doing. And when it just does the work for you, you know, even the first exercise I just said to them, just write about everything you've done to get here this morning. And they were literally all of them didn't stop the pen moving. And I think that's an interesting point, actually, that people who don't normally reflect or don't normally write either or tend to take to it easier, because there's nothing in their way. Whereas you'll find people who write, if you had a group of writers in the room, they'll struggle much more with it from my experience, because they're worried about how they write, they're thinking more about what they're writing and how they're writing it, versus just getting stuff out. So that's an interesting thing to think about. But I still think just sort of go for it. But yeah, they, you know, their reflections and of course, again, I put them in pairs and this was the first just the first thing I did after lockdown in person. And you know, just them getting together in person talking about, you can feel the energy in the room that they just you have to take a leap I think with it sometimes because you're not gonna get people's buy in and people aren't gonna go Oh, yes, please I'd love to do that. It's like, Just do it. And then see what happens. And yeah, there's no situation I dont think I wouldn't do it. And I realised I forgot what your question was.
N.W
It was just more about convincing clients as well. Like if they give an outline, this is what we're going to be doing. How would you propose, particularly if they'd said we want everyone to talk to each other lots. And intuitively, you might assume that if say everyone's writing, they're not really interacting, but you know, we've discussed that a bit, but how?
C.P
Well I guess it is that isn't it, it's like you're gonna get everybody's voice heard in the room guaranteed because you're gonna, A, like we were talking about earlier, they're going to be more honest, when they write stuff down, then when they share, they're going to probably say something slightly different, that's more connecting, not necessarily, but they might, and everybody's voice will be heard, you know, not necessarily by the whole room. But again, when I've done workshops, you know, with some very quiet people, what's brilliant is, is when you come back from a pair, I'm thinking particularly about zoom here, I guess, because I've done more of it in the last few years. And then people will speak for the other people, they'll say, oh, so and so wrote this really interesting thing about such and such, and that person would have never necessarily volunteered to have it. But that person then will share for them and, and you can see, they're quite happy for that to happen. I mean, I guess this could happen that somebody wasn't happy, but I've never seen that happen. So I think that guaranteed to get voices heard for people to open their mouths and speak words, you know, and be involved and get them involved, right from the get go to me would be, that's, that's the thing I would try and sell. But if I felt like they were going to be resistant, I probably just call it something else and not go into detail about what it was, you know, just call it something innocuous and then bust it out when you get there.
N.W
And are there any sort of facilitation tools or frameworks that you think can particularly work well, with journaling and writing activities kind of built into them?
C.P
Yeah, well, I think so I have done coaching and I've used journaling, slash writing with coaching and that you can you know, the GROW Model, obviously, the most straightforward of all the coaching models and people know that model, you can sort of follow that with a situation. So that's how I'm going to self coach myself, that's sort of my go to, apart from medicinal journaling I talked about earlier. So literally, with the GROW, so goal, you know, it's like, what, what's the situation you're in? What do you want to happen? write about that, then the reality bits really interesting, because you can look back at what you've written, and kind of go through and go, Well, what's actually real here? What's my assumption? What, what's my generalisation? What's my judgement I'm making, in what I've just written? And that again, you can see that much easier than if you try and just say it or think it, you know, you just can't separate it out in that way. And normally, by that point, to be honest, I know, in my experience, and I know other people's as well, you already know what you need to do before you've even got probably even sometimes to reality. So that model is quite good. And then of course, if you do carry on options, you can write about options, you can ask the radiator, or whatever it is you choose, in that moment. The problem itself, ask the problem itself, what it would do?, you know, again, using those sorts of things for the options, and then the what's next, obviously, you just have to pick that. But so I guess in a coaching way that model, but you can pretty much use it with any model, I think, to be honest, because you just instead of talking about or brainstorming or whatever, you can just insert the writing where you would put brainstorming or just getting down the facts of the situation, you know, that people are in so.
N.W
Great well, thank you so much Claire . I think that's probably the sort of end of my questions, and I have to kind of curve myself otherwise, I could keep asking all day, which as you know, I'm quite prone to doing. But if anyone who's been listening would like to find out more about your work or get in touch with you, what's the best place that they can do that?
C.P
ClairePearce.uk. So it's CLAIRE, and then Pearce is PEARCE .uk There's no code it is specifically just UK. I've got two names that need spelling out, which is unfortunate. I have thought about changing my name but.
N.W
That would be extreme.
C.P
Anyway, that's where you know, my email is and all of that stuff.
N.W
And thank you again, it's been really great to chat to you today.
C.P
No problem. It's been a pleasure. And I hope some of that was useful for people and I'm very happy to answer people's questions if they want to ask me anything about it.
Outro
H.J
So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.
N.W
If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links are on our website facilitationstories.com
H.J
And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.
N.W
We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?
H.J
Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about.
N.W
Then send us an email at [email protected]
H.J
We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.
N.W
Until then, thank you for listening.
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FS69 Social Presencing Theater with Rosie Cripps
In this episode Nikki talks to Rosie Cripps, a facilitator and evaluator who helps build social movements and evaluate complex systems, about Social Presencing Theater.
They talk about:
What Social Presencing Theater is, its origins and some of the tools and techniques that sit under it;
The role of the facilitator in creating psychological safety and responding in the moment without knowing the details of the issue being explored;
How Rosie first experienced Social Presencing Theater and what interested her about it;
âwith social presencing theater, you can get to the crux of the matter so quickly, and so, kind of precisely, and so clearly see what needs to change without barely exchanging any words at all.â
A workshop that Rosie ran with Ann Nkune at the IAF England and Wales conference using the tool âStuckâ;
âSome people said it made them not just think differently, but feel differentlyâ.
How this experience led Rosie to attending a recent Social Presencing Theater course and the learning from that experience;
Rosieâs thoughts on how to take this forward, including a call out for collaborators;
A full transcript is below.
Links
Todayâs guest:
Rosie Cripps on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosie-cripps/
Todayâs subject
Presencing Institute: https://presencinginstitute.org/
U School: https://www.u-school.org/
Arawana Hayashi Social Presencing Theater website: https://arawanahayashi.com/spt/
Social Presencing Theater The Art of Making a True Move (book), Arawana Hayashi
To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter
Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/
And to email us: [email protected]
IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales
The Facilitation Stories Team
Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Transcript
N.W
Hello, and welcome to facilitation stories, the community podcast of the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson (N.W), and my guest today is Rosie Cripps (R.C). So welcome Rosie.
R.C
Hi, thank you for having me.
N.W
So to start off with, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do?
R.C
Yeah. So I'm a facilitator and an evaluator. I help build inclusive community-led movements and as part of this, so I've helped teach architecture students, Appreciative Inquiry, and I've been exploring the idea of universities as anchor organisations to help communities become resilient and self-sustaining. And I evaluate kind of complex, messy systems. And I usually do that using outcome harvesting, which uses lots of facilitation. So in summary, I kind of help build social movements and evaluate complex systems.
N.W
Great. And so today, we're going to be talking about Social Presencing Theater. So for listeners who don't know what it is, Please, could you tell us a little bit more about it, and how a typical session might work?
R.C
Okay, so this is very different from my day to day work. First of all, Social Presencing Theater uses mindfulness, movement, and reflection, to create quite dramatic shifts in perspective. So it can be used at an individual level, or with teams, with big organisations, or in quite complex systems around social justice issues, or climate change, or something like that. It was created by Arawana Hayashi, and she's a dance teacher. But it's mainly been applied across sectors by someone called Otto Scharmer. He's an academic at MIT and he basically coded what are the principles of innovation, and he turned them into a theory called âTheory Uâ. And that's all open source, because he wants as many people as possible to be tackling the complex issues of our time. But they together, Otto and Arawana, they co founded the Presencing Institute, and they use Social Presencing Theater as a means for helping people to progress past habitual thought patterns and into these principles of innovation in whatever context they're in. So I personally find Social Presencing powerful, because you can work through very kind of tricky issues where we might feel stuck or unable to move forward very quickly, sometimes taking you to a place of being more stuck. But at least you have different insight. But without having to reveal at any point, what the issue is or what the tricky situation is. And it can be also very bonding for the people who are doing it. So your group that you're working with, it's very bonding, even if you're working with a complete group of strangers.
N.W
And so how might a typical session run?
R.C
Yeah, a typical session. So this is tricky, because I'm new to it. And there's also lots of different methods that sit under it. Some individual based tools and techniques, and some are for very large groups. But they think the way that Otto Scharmer mainly uses it with kind of fortune 500 companies and big organisations is he uses something called 4D mapping, which was co created by I think Otto Scharmer, and Arawana. And people who also use organisational constellations, and people who use presencing more generally. And 4D mapping, basically, you map out a system using people. And then you sense together a different potential future for that system. So it allows you to see in kind of 3D what the system is currently looking like, and how it could potentially shift. And that can be really powerful. And systems mapping, because it's very malleable. I like traditionally in systems mapping, I would kind of draw out a system, and it's very fixed. Whereas in this situation, you're sensing together as a group, where are the opportunities for movement, and that can give a lot of insights into what should change.
N.W
Okay. And so what would the role of the facilitator be in that environment? And how would that be different from other types of facilitation? Would you say?
R.C
Yeah, I think, I think in that context, because you don't always know what the actual topic is, there's kind of two parts to it. So one is it's about making the situation safe, because I think generally, we're not used to moving as a society. We're not used to using movement and so the psychological safety is really important. And then the other aspect is you're going in blind. So you're kind of sensing the room as opposed to, in a normal situation, you can be kind of tracking the flow of the room by listening to people in their conversation them expressing what's, what's going on. Whereas in this context, it's much more about sensing what's happening in the room. And responding to that in that moment. So it's quite different actually supposed to be a lot more emotionally responsive to what they would normally be as a facilitator, I think.
N.W
And, and as you've said, this is quite different to the kind of tools and techniques and facilitation work you'd normally do. So when did you first come across Social Presencing Theater? And what was it that interested you about it?
R.C
So I was reflecting back recently about which of the workshops and where are the places in my life where I've had the biggest personal transformational shifts, and which have been the workshops that have made those shifts last, and they've all involved movement. And so there's two workshops I've been to in my life. The first was in my early 20s, which is kind of a week-long workshop which involved movement. And, again, involved no talking. And then I volunteered at the Never Done Before Festival, which is run by Myriam Hadnesâs community, and just stumbled across a Social Presencing Theater Workshop. And in that workshop, it was online, it was only like an hour, I think. It was people from all over the world who had never met before. And yet, even in that very short amount of time, we just did some small movements.You know, just sat at my desk, and then also some group movements just in breakout rooms, and it totally shifted my perspective. And I felt incredibly close to the people that I'd been working with, even though I'd never met them before and it was all through a computer. So it kind of made me think, Okay, I'm personally finding this stuff really powerful and interesting. But is that you know, other people's experiences. And before kind of, like throwing myself into that, I guess I really wanted to explore that further, and see if other people were getting these shifts and transformations as well. Which is why, and then I started talking to Megan Evans, he's been a kind of mentor to me, and to Ann Nkune, who I know, to a shared love of Appreciative Inquiry and time to think. So I just literally read Arawana's book, and then suggested to Ann that we run a session at the IAF Conference, which we did this year. So that's kind of how I came to it, it's not been a planned route. But I found it personally very powerful. And it's also linked in to actually, after I had children, I started dancing. And I had a complete shift really, again, in my perspective, when I just I think I lived so much in my mind, when I started dancing, I had this dance teacher who didn't teach us kind of choreographed moves, he just taught us how our body wanted to move. And I didn't know if you can actually even call it dance, it's probably just me moving around terribly, but I found it really powerful and healing, just getting out of my head and into my body. And I think that's a lot of what this is about. It's about just getting rid of those habitual thought patterns and kind of living in our minds all the time. And being in our bodies and noticing that our bodies have a lot of wisdom and knowledge that we just waste, we just waste. And the thing I found with social presencing, is we spend so much time talking especially you know, as in groups, as facilitators, we see so much talk and conversation. Whereas with social presencing theater, you can get to the crux of the matter so quickly, and so, kind of precisely, and so clearly see what needs to change without barely exchanging any words at all.
N.W
Okay. And so you've mentioned that you ran a session at this year's IAF England and Wales conference,with Ann Nkune, and so could you tell us a little bit more about that?
R.C
Yeah, so I mentioned earlier, there's, there's quite a lot of tools that sit under social presencing theater. So our IAF conference workshop focused around a method called âstuckâ and in that you take a situation where you're not moving or thriving or something's not moving forward, or maybe you're just kind of stuck in your comfort zone and you you're not really willing to step out. And you embody that situation in whatever form you want to take. You form a statue and you call that sculpture one and then you kind of sense in your body you let yourself move to a different future. that wants to emerge through you. You move to a second position, and then you call that sculpture two, and you give each sculpture a phrase. And that in itself sounds very bizarre, but is very powerful. So for instance, the other day, I had a situation where I had to report a huge amount of data to a group of people. And I was feeling incredibly overwhelmed. And so I put myself in this stuck position where I had my kind of arms up in front of my head, and was almost crouching down, and my word was overwhelmed. And then I moved into a second position, which gave me a lot of clarity. And I had another phrase, which was, they need to make sense of it. And so I in my head, I've been getting stuck over and over with trying to make sense of all these overwhelming amounts of data, when in actual fact, it kind of shift the perspective straight way for me in that I didn't need to be making sense, but I just needed to be presenting them with data. So that's just an example of where you might use stuck. So we use stuck. And then you start off working through your own stuck practices, even from sculpture one to sculpture two. And then you extend that out as a group. So in our workshop, and in most social presencing situations, we don't at any point, know what issue someone is working through. So you'll do your sculpture one to sculpture two on your own, and then you extend that out as a group without explaining what it is that you're working through. And the other people in our group will help extend out our stuck situation. So they become other players in the system. And they help enhance that feeling of stuck, and also give a different perspective on it. So So in my situation where I was stuck with feeling overwhelmed with all this data, I might have someone standing in front of me who's representing all the hundreds of interviews that I've done. And then I might have someone stood behind me, who is representing the people that I have to show all this data to. And then we would move together as a group, so they wouldn't know what this issue is about at all, but they might look at me and say, You look pained or, or I'm seeing confusion, something like that. And then we'd all move together with no idea where each other we're going to move or any sense of where we should move, we just move wherever feels right at the time. And then we'll move collectively together into a second sculpture. And then again, they'll give their perspective on the situation. So they might say, you know, you look freed or relieved or something like that. And the other people's insights can be just as valuable as your own. And I think for me, and our IAF session, that was what people found most powerful is working through something as a group, without anyone in the group knowing what it was about, except for that one individual. And even though as a group members, for example, I've done this a number of times, even in situations where I don't know what the person's going through, I can personally find it very moving as well. I think just by moving together as a group is very bonding in itself and illuminating. So we did that at the IAF conference, we did this stuck on our own and then stuck as a group. And then we use time to think, to reflect on what those processes felt like to the groups involved.
N.W
Okay, and so you've mentioned, I think that this session was for you a bit of an exploration of how to use this. So what were your personal kind of takeaways from that session?
R.C
I think there were a lot of takeaways, actually. I think the main thing was that it was something other people found powerful. So I went in thinking, okay, is this just me, in fact, I was there the night before in my hotel, and I was thinking, Oh my gosh, what am I doing? Because I'm going to a conference I've never been to before, co facilitating with someone I've never met before, on a subject that I've only read a book about. You know,I didn't know whether this is going to be something that anyone else would get anything from at all. So the main takeaway was, oh, wow, okay other people are finding this useful as well. And I think having spoken to a few people after the conference, they said, you know, it's one of the sessions where they were able to go deepest. And again, I think that's because they didn't have to talk about anything that they were kind of working through. So as a facilitator that's quite strange because you're kind of blind to all of that. But it's really nice to be able to create a space where people can work through some quite tricky personal issues. So yeah, there was that, that it was helpful. Some people said it made them not just think differently, but feel differently. And that, you know, someone else mentioned that there's something that they've been talking to people about for months and months and months, and just couldn't see a way out of this situation that then had done that, and then could instantly see a way through. So I was like, Okay, great. I feel like it's, it's a useful tool. So that was the main thing. I also noticed that maybe it isn't for everyone, and getting the context is going to be right. And I think for Ann and I, we both kind of felt that we recognise that it was probably more powerful, like using movement is more powerful than we originally expected. And thinking about how we prepare the room for the emotions, it can trigger as well, I think is quite important. But yeah, just the overwhelming thing I took away was the kind of desire to experiment with other people more, to try it out with other people more. And so then that evening, I think went back to my hotel room and signed up to a course in Berlin to properly train in it.
N.W
Great. And so you've neatly led into my next question, really, about that course, and what happened on the course? And what did you learn there?
R.C
Yeah, so the course was a two day course with Arawana Hayashi herself. So that was really exciting, because she kind of founded it all. And it was with 43 other people from all over the world, actually, but mainly from Europe. I think there were four people from the UK. And we went through all the different types of techniques, which she describes in her book called Social Presencing Theater. And yeah, it was, it was just incredibly insightful. There were lots of different techniques that we tried out, some, you know, just on our own, some as a whole group of 43 people, some in small groups, all that can be used in different contexts. And again, I think by the second day all of us were just feeling like, why would you bother talking anymore? It just seems like such a waste of time, when you can kind of get so much clarity and connection with others in silence, you know, just by moving together. But it's called Social Presencing Theater, but it's not about theater, it is just about moving and embodying. There's no acting element to it. There's nothing theatrical actually about it at all. It's just a way of using, thinking with our bodies as well as our minds. Yeah. So the training was fantastic, gave me loads of ideas and met loads of connections, lots of people who were also thinking about using it in all kinds of leadership scenarios. And actually some massive issues about, you know, tackling climate change and deforestation in the Amazon and all these different frameworks, people using it for and all of them finding it ,yeah, a really interesting method of breaking just habitual thought patterns and approaches to situations and thinking about things really differently.
N.W
Okay. And so I know that you, you weren't on the course very long ago. So this might be a difficult question to answer. But what are your current thoughts on how you might take it forward and put it into practice? Yeah,
R.C
Yeah, so I think main thing at the moment, which is very much just a thought process, to help serve this, but Ann and I are thinking about experimenting, doing another session at London Lab, which is linked to the London IAF group. So we're thinking about doing that in maybe September or October. And I'm personally thinking about how I built it into my work with systems thinking and systems mapping. So it's part of the evaluation work I do, we do a lot of systems thinking work. And I think using it in that context is really helpful, because it's a really malleable way of looking at how we can change and shift systems, but also even the stuck practice, which is just within individuals. You know, through all my systems based work, the one thing that stands out is that unless we change people, you know, we can't change systems. And the stuck practice itself is a way of really helping people shift their perspective on their role within a system and what they can do individually to change things. So yeah, I'm thinking about how I can build into my work. And I'm also just looking for as many people as possible to collaborate with who'd like to experiment with Ann and I on this.
N.W
Great. And you mentioned earlier that in your IAF session, you combined this with time to think, are there other kinds of facilitation tools and techniques that you think could work well alongside social presencing theater if you're building this out into something you would use in other contexts?
R.C
Yeah, I would say on that, that Ann and I used time to think at the end of the session, and we were also thinking about it from an Appreciative Inquiry perspective, because that's what both of us use primarily in our work. Having said that, at the training, it really shifted my perspective, because I think one of the things which they tried to focus on with social presencing is, is moving out of these habitual thought patterns. So they just focus on what did you do? What did you see? What did you feel? And so I think probably, I wouldn't use time to think with it anymore, possibly, or maybe use elements of time to think that not, not use exactly the same principles. And I think that also relates back to the psychological safety element as well, you're never really conceptualising with anyone, what it is you're working through, maybe not even yourself. And I think that's actually helpful, because we get so bogged down in our thought patterns. So I think keeping it very just in the moment in your body, like touching, not overthinking anything is quite important with the process. So yeah, what tools would I use it with is possibly Appreciative Inquiry, maybe as a precursor to that. And then systems mapping and any group work where you're working through individual challenges collectively as a group, maybe it's support groups or something like that.
N.W
That's great. So if listeners would like to find out more about social presencing theater, where should they look?
R.C
Okay, so there's a book by Arawana Hayashi called social presencing theater. I think it's called The Art of Making a True move. There's also a website. So Arawana has a social presencing theater website, which is really interesting. And then there's also this wider context of âTheory Uâ. So Otto Scharmer, and Arawana have a website called the U-school, literally the letter U hyphen school. And that gives a wider framework to the work as well, which is, they have loads of open source training as well, which is really interesting, if anyone was interested in that.
N.W
Brilliant and how about if people want to get in touch with you after this? Particularly as you've got a call out there for collaborators and fellow experimenters as it were.
R.C
Yeah, probably just LinkedIn is best for me.
N.W
Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Rosie. That's been really interesting. And I hope to hear more about where you, where you take this forward. But thank you for sharing where you've got to today so far.
R.C
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. And I look forward to hopefully hearing to some people who are interested in experimenting.
Outro
H.J
So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast of IAF England and Wales.
N.W
If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website facilitationstories.com
H.J
To make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use.
N.W
We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?
H.J
Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about
N.W
Then send us an email at [email protected]
H.J
We hope you'll join us again soon for more facilitation stories.
N.W
Until then, thank you for listening.
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This episode is one of our quarterly âChapter Chatsâ where the team talks to leaders of other IAF Chapters. In this episode Helene and Nikki chat to Sara Tremmi Proietti and Andrea Panzavolta from IAF Italy.
They talk about
How the chapter began in 2013 and the successive leaders since then;
Initiatives to extend the reach of the chapter in Southern Italy:
The co-leadership model used for the past two leadership terms;
âOur jobs are a little bit different. So it's very interesting because we see things from very different perspectives. And this is also always very, very rich, and something that I really, really recommendâ (Sara on co-leading with Giacamo)
The Chapterâs Annual Conference- its volunteer-led model and support provided to people whoâd like to run a session;
Working collaboratively with other Associations in Italy;
Twinning with other IAF chapters including Romania and Syria;
Plans and aspirations for the future of the Chapter;
âwe would like the chapter to be a point of reference at the national level for organisations who are seeking facilitator facilitation services or just want to learn something more about itâ
A full transcript is below.
Links
Todayâs guests:
Sara Tremmi Proietti: [email protected]
IAF Italy website: https://iaf-italy.org/
IAF Italy email: [email protected]
Todayâs subject
LinkedIn Article about Co Leadership by Andrea and Deborah: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/stepping-leadership-iaf-story-deborah-rim-moiso-fmdwf/
To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter
Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/
And to email us: [email protected]
IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales
The Facilitation Stories Team
Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Transcript
H.J
Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, the community podcast brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. I'm Helene Jewell (HJ) and
N.W
I'm Nikki Wilson (NW)
H.J
And this episode is one of our quarterly Chapter Chats, where we talk to people leading other chapters in the IAF global community. We ask them about how they see the status of facilitation, where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations of the chapter. Today, we're joined by Andrea Panzavolta (AP) and Sara Tremmi Proietti (SP), co chairs of IAF Italy, welcome.
S.P
Thank you, Helene.
A.P
Thank you so much for the invitation and also for your perfect pronunciation.
H.J
Thank you so welcome to you both. And to start off with, we would like to know a little bit more about both of you and about the kind of work you do. So if you could tell us a bit about yourselves, that would be great.
S.P
Thank you Helene. Okay, so my name is Sara, and I live in Rome, which is in centre of Italy. I have been working in public administration for over 10 years now, and for the past three years, I've been drawn to the world of facilitation, first attending a course and then starting to work also in in this field, public administration, I focused initially on economic programming, but then I turned more on teams like innovation and process optimization. So that's how I met facilitation, because during an office reorganisation attempt, we met a lot of conflicts and resistances and difficulties with our team. And so I understood that I needed to, you know, to discover and to learn something more about people, about relation, about group working. So that's how I met it and how I am.
A.P
So may I introduce myself, and first of all, thank you for the invitation and for this amazing initiative, because I also listened to the past podcast and were very, very, very well done. I'm not the actual chapter leader. I was the past chapter leader with Deborah Rim Moiso. So thank you also, Sarah, who invited me to join you. And I'm an urban planner and the facilitator, of course, our 20 years that I practise as a facilitator. I'm a founder of the formative collective, that is a project that focuses on the team of non violent communication. And of course, we use the participatory techniques, methods. And I was awarded with the Platinum Award 2020 by the International Association of Facilitator. So I'm very proud about this, in a project that I follow it by region Emilia-Romagna, that is my region in the north of Italy, and the team was about the Community of Practice on participatory policy making. So that's all for me.
H.J
Thank you. Really interesting to hear how you both got into facilitation and congratulations on your award too, Andrea.
A.P
Thanks so much. It's a past award.
N.W
Great. So today we're going to be talking about IAF Italy, which we know had its 10 year anniversary last year. So what can you tell us about how it started and how the chapters developed over that 10 year period?
A.P
Yeah, thank you for the question Nikki .The Italian chapter born in 2013 on the initiative by Giancarlo Manzone and Gerardo de Luzengerger that I imagine you know very well. And from 2019 to 2021 was coordinated by Paola Martinez. That is another IAF member, very active. And since May 2021, has been coordinated by me and Deborah Rim Moiso. And now the coordinators are Sara Tremmi Proietti and Giacomo Petitti. And the chapter started to create collaboration between facilitators, and mainly to explain what the facilitator do. At that time nobody in Italy know the term, the word facilitator. And I was scared to present me as a facilitator, because nobody, nobody could understand what I did. So this is our first mission in that time.
H.J
Thank you. Really interesting. Sorry, Sara, did you have something to add?
S.P
Yeah, I would like to, just to add that the professional facilitator now it's spreading a little bit more in Italy, but still, we have a lot of resistance among organisations. And there is a great concentration of facilitators in the north of the country. So we are our initiative now is also to bring facilitation to the southern regions of the country. And we are quite pleased about an initiative that came from our members, which is a small initiative, because they just decided to have a WhatsApp chat called like facilitators from the South. And the nice thing is that this initiative came from a Canadian girl, who is a member who lives now in the south of Italy, and but, and she's a member of IAF Italy, and she formed this WhatsApp chat, and we are quite proud of this, even if this is a small step, but it does mean something for us.
H.J
Wow, that's so interesting. And also that kind of organic movement of yeah, people starting up their own, yeah? Well, WhatsApp chat
S.P
Exactly, exactly, yeah.
H.J
And I think what's interesting actually for us is, the more we do these Chapter Chats, we hear a bit of a consistent theme, actually, in this people don't really know what facilitation is. That certainly, when we spoke to Bogdan from IAF Romania, that was one of the things he was talking about as well. So it's definitely and in the UK. So it's definitely not, uh, not something, uh, specific to where we are, which is interesting.
Okay, so, um, thinking then, uh, well building a bit on what you were saying, Sara about, you know, you've got some new initiatives. Can you tell us a bit more about the chapter as it is today?
S.P
Yeah, sure. So the chapter today has about 30 to 35 members, as I was saying before, with the predominance in the north of Italy. So it's like 20 to 22, members in the north, and four of them are certified facilitators. So now we still have two co-leader, a co-leadership. It's me and Giacomo Petitti. We have been holding this role for a year now, so it's midterm kind of. And what we do is we basically carried on the work, the job that was began by Andrea and Deborah, because we hold monthly meetings. So it's pretty regularly. It's like the third Monday of each month we meet. And we also provided IAF Italy with a Zoom account so that we can, we could, uh, ensure you know this regularity. And this is a place, this is a moment of the month where people can meet and discuss and also participate in building and nourishing the community and to identify together goals and activities. So we wanted to be a participated chapter, no. So since we are kind of scattered among, you know, along the country, across the country, we cannot hold, like in person events so frequently. So we have our national event, which is held in Milan every year. So we keep it, you know, online, mainly. And then we we have, like, some activities, like, you know, things that we participate in, in events with other association for the promotion of the participation, or for the promotion of facilitation as well. Like, we went to an event last September in Bologna. So we travel a little bit, me and Giacomo sometimes. And then to, you know, to keep up with members, we have this WhatsApp chat, and then we have a sort of newsletter. We can call it like monthly, where we give, we keep them updated to with the international events and initiatives that are going on into the IAF Ward and yeah and that, that's pretty much it. And then we have, you know, like a specific also, activities that we were following, but maybe Andrea will tell you more later about it.
N.W
And you touched on the kind of Co-leadership model that you follow. What do you, have you found works well in making that work when you're co leading?
A.P
Yes, before the 2021 the chapter had always been led by an individual, but when Gerardo asked me to became the chapter leader, I was very scared. And in that period I had less time to dedicate to the association. So I asked to Deborah Rim Moiso to help me, and she joined, and she was very happy to join this experience. And we together were inspired by experiments in Co-leadership adopted by the global ecovillage network and and we not, we're not sure, but they may have too been inspired by the Kurdish democratic and federalism practices. So this was our approach, and it's very simple. Our co-leadership started, I don't know if now work at the same, but I think it's very similar. And any leadership position is taken at the same time by two people of different genders. So we suggest different genders, both are leader together. And you know, as IAF you need to have only one reference, one the chapter leader, but I was the person who did the senior tour. But for me and Deborah, we have the same power. And for me, was very important to share the season and to share also that after the meeting with the IAF International. And was very, very useful also to define the future strategy, also to when we decided to engage more members from the south of Italy, we decided together this and we decided to to have regular meetings with us, with me and Deborah. We call the coffee time meeting, or the beer meeting, the beer time meeting. So every week, we had a short meeting of half an hour to share ideas and also to share information that we took from from different meetings that we participate. So we shared also the duties you know about, to be a chapter leader. And so was a very good experience, and we suggested this managed model to all the chapters.
H.J
Nice, and for you Sara, does that, is it a model that feels nice working alongside somebody else?
S.P
Yeah, very much. I really appreciated this initiative. And when Andrea proposed me to take the role and told me that Giacomo was in as well, I was really relieved. I was like, Okay, now, now I know that I can do it like this. You know, in pairs. Yeah, I think it's very interesting to be together. And also you can, you know, divide activities, such as the previous one I was talking about, when you have to travel around. And also you can, you know, share meetings where you have to, that you have to attend, but mostly you can discuss and share fears and projects for the future. And also Giacomo and I have very different backgrounds. How are you know, we live in different places, in different type of communities, our jobs are a little bit different. So it's very interesting because we see things from very different perspectives and this is also always very, very rich, and something that I really, really recommend. So I'm really, really enjoying this. And also the nice thing was that at the last general conference, we kind of hosted the conference, which is organised by Gerardo every year. But also we decided to have a session together for a session. So we brought a workshop so we could test, you know, our Co-leadership in person and during work. So that's nice.
H.J
So it sounds great from sort of lots of different perspectives. And yeah, interesting thinking about that diversity perspective that you both bring two sort of different mindsets or different ways of facilitating to your leadership. And I can absolutely, having been passed England and Wales chapter chair, I can absolutely relate to that being a bit scared of doing it by yourself. So if you've got somebody to work alongside with that must feel really good. So the other thing you you've just mentioned again, leading us nicely onto, my next question is about your annual conference. It would be really nice to hear a bit more about about the how that works, about your plans and past conferences as well. You tell us a bit more.
A.P
Yeah, maybe I could introduce some themes related to the past conferences. And what I could say a lot of subjects. We started with âthe collaboration eraâ was the title of the first Italian conference. Was the first conference to make know better the professional facilitator, and to start also the collaboration with different professional you know. At the time, each facilitator was very jealous about his work ,his profession, because it was, was something very precious, so we decided to start collaboration to share experience methods and what what we know. In our conference, everyone bring his or her experience and the share methods could offer a free workshop so you have to share something of your professional experience also. And another theme that I loved, it was âwhere the donkey fallsâ. So when you are a facilitator, you do everything very well, but when you start to converge to the, to take the decision, here come the problems. So how we could take good decision, how we could go in the conversing way and respect our participants or the group's members. And after that was very good for me, the covid free editions conference, because we shared all we learned in these months of pandemic situation also about the online. But were moment to share those feelings as professional, as individual, as a member of a family, and what does. Also the last conference we organised were about the facilitate in a few words, so no verbal facilitation. How to use the body, arms? You know, we are Italian. We could was very, very well para verbal. But you never stop to study. You have to improve your skills. So we decide to face this team. And the last in the in 2024 the team was neutrality in facilitation. I mean, it's possible to be really neutral as a facilitator in a group, how you can do to be natural, what methods, what you have to do before the groups works before the workshop or after, to be more neutral. And at the end, one of the most nice for me experience of the conference was the agile and facilitation conference that was there during the European Middle East, original conference of the IAF, so was a very, was an international conference. We mainly, not mainly, all the conference has been organised in Italian language. This was the only conference can I organise in English. Always in Milan was dedicated to Agile. So to work with an agile methods, and also to go in deep in the Agile methods that it's not only for person that work with computer and engineers but it's also good for design thinking, the facilitator. And I don't know if Sara wants to add something more about this experience?
S.P
Yes, thank you Andrea, it was very exhaustive. Yeah, what I would like to add is more like a personal, maybe, point of view for in a way, because I, as I said before, I met facilitation three years ago. So I just attended a couple of conferences the last two. So the first one was, yeah, the one like facilitating in a few words, and that, for me, was really amazing, because I just met facilitation and I had no idea, like not no idea, but I was very young in facilitation. So experiencing facilitation through the body and through paraverbal was very enriching for me, because I could learn a lot and experiment on myself a lot. And the second one, and the very nice thing for me was that I was asked by Andrea, I think by Andrea, or by Delfino, I don't remember, to to facilitate the open space technology that we always have during the conference. And it was the first time for me, and that was absolutely amazing experience. And in general, the great thing about the conference is that it brings together very different people, and you get to know that, other words, you know, exist in facilitation. And this is something that being new. It's always you know, something to discover. So it's very interesting. And another thing that I would like to add is that in the this year, last conference, which was held in March, the one about neutrality, was organised in a slightly different way, because there was like a preparation path conference. And people were, are kind of supported and not tutored, but supported in their planning and designing of the workshops that they wanted to to offer. And these, and they were like, they were like feedback, attentions, so that people could improve and take care of, you know, details supported by by a team of, you know, facilitators, and these ensured great quality of of workshops during the conference. It was really, really, really high quality. And I believe that it helped also young facilitators to, you know, to offer workshops with less anxiety. I don't know how to say that, you know, so, yeah, that was really, really nice. I think
A.P
If I put up just a very practical thing that is not obvious, the conference is all organised by volunteers, and this is a choice, because the fee is very low, so it's about 180 or 150 euros. It depends about the year. So we want to be very open also to person that are not facilitator, are curious about facilitators or facilitation methods and stories, and that's all.
H.J
Sounds kind of similar to the conference that we put on in England and Wales, actually there's, yeah, definite similarities. Nice. Thank you.
N.W
Brilliant. And so I suppose building again on that kind of peer led nature of the work the chapter often builds collaborations and partnerships, both within Italy and beyond. So if we just start off with Italy, could you share some examples of some recent and current collaborations that you're involved with?
A.P
Yeah, thank you, Nikki for the question. Yes. When I became chapter leader, together with Deborah, we decide to enforce relation with National Association, because we understood that we have to grow, and to grow we have to enforce the relation to know more association that are interested in the same subjects. So mainly we did intervention to explain what I effectively do and what are the core competencies, support, facilitator, and, you know, just to present ourselves and to explain what a facilitator is. We invite all the members of different association to share information and objectives, to find common ground. So we work, in particular with IP two, that is an association in Italy that work on public participation. And if the members are more academic, are more are not professional facilitator, but like to work in the field of facilitator and the public democratic choices. So they are very engaged about what IAF is. And also, we decide to start collaboration with Association like Facilit Ambiente, that is an association, a private association that is offered by the Chamber of Commerce of Milan Monza Brianza Lodi. And it's a sort of service offered for preventing environmental conflicts through facilitation. So they trust in facilitation. They want to support and promote the facilitations approaches and also IAF approaches and the core competencies. So also we work with the open gulf consultation, that is the national consultation, that aim to engage citizens, normal citizens, in the decision related to the government. And there is a national platform, online platform, and you can vote, you know, like this deal, but it's a national platform. So very, very hard to participate because you need, you need to use a lot of personal data to vote before, but for us, was a must. As an international association, as a national association of facilitation, we have to speak also with the Italian government about these, these subjects.
H.J
Thank you. Sara, was there anything to add from you?
S.P
Yeah, just that this, we are with the associate association that Andrea mentioned, the Association for Public Participation. We are now reviewing the Participation Charter, which was elaborated, created 10 years ago. So after 10 years, this charter has been reviewed. And the Charter is a document promoted by IAF Italy, and this AIP through association with other associations that establishes principles and objectives and guidelines for promoting public participation in decision making processes and the process of reviewing this charter just ended. So we will present this work at the Festival of the Participation, which would be held soon in Italy. So we are quite, quite proud of this. And yes, in general, we try to connect with the associate Association in order to spread facilitation, and also to promote the recognition of the facilitator, facilitator profession in Italy, because this profession is not yet recognised here.
H.J
Amazing, Wow. Sounds like you've got lots and lots of Yeah, lots of work that you're doing, and perhaps lots more to do, just thinking about collaborations, but more specifically about the twinning that you've been doing with other chapters. I wanted to ask you a bit more about that. So we spoke to Bogdan, as I said before, from IAF Romania in a previous Chapter Chat and we know that you've twinned with IAF Romania, and you have started, I think, to twin with IAF Syria. And I just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about that.
S.P
Yeah, yeah. We, Giacomo and I, decided to carry on this, this initiative that was started by Andrea and Deborah with the Romania when but we did with this training with Syria. And it was a very, very enriching experience for us, because it could help us expand our horizon, you know, also beyond, beyond the Western culture. And so we had a series of virtual workshop, online workshop with with Syrian, in order to share knowledge, resources and best practices between our chapters. We had four meetings about the first one was like, like, the role of facilitation in post disaster recovery. And this was really interesting, because we exchange different stories, and we could see how different it was to, for example, recover after natural disaster. Like it was like in Italy, because we have, we had a few earthquakes in the last few years that and then we had to rebuild, you know, buildings and communities. Whereas in Syria, they had to rebuild after war, and then also after earthquakes. So we could share this experience, and we would see the differences and the great job that they did, and that we also tried to do here in Italy. And also it was very nice because each, each each meeting, the other meetings, were about the conflict management and cultural diversity. So it was, it was very nice to because there are, there might be great differences, you know, in culture, especially when you, when you compare Italy to Syria. So it really makes you think and reflect even out of the session. You know, you have to think about cultural diversity at the basis of the relation. I don't know how to explain it better. And it was nice because we had the chance to co facilitate. So it was an Italian and a Syrian facilitator. And so it was really enriching and but what I saw and what I really liked is that, because I did facilitate one of these meetings, and it was the openness and the human connection that we could find and share when doing something that we really liked. So it was something that went beyond cultural diversity and went beyond the barrier, also the language barrier that you can meet when you go facilitate. You know, maybe Andrea wants to tell us a few more about the Romanian experience.
A.P
But, yeah, sure. Just something to add about the idea, the idea, when we decide, with Deborah to propose this twinning during a meeting of the European chapter, we decide to propose a twinning that was composed about three, four meetings, thematic meetings. And of course, that will not take more than two years twinning, because, from our idea, also the Chapter must be in charge for two years. And every two years we want to change chapter leaders and as well, co chapter leaders. And so the twinning at this time about the Romania was amazing because was the first twinning so we decided together, also with bogdan and his and their colleagues, we decided also to share how it's different the professional facilitator in Romania and Italy. So starting from, what are your clients? What are your fees? And something very, very practical, but also if you work more in the private or public sector and what you did, what are your institution? So the line was to enrich each other with methods, but also take inspiration how to work in a different way with different clients that together are not you don't know. And so was very fun also to understand that we are in the same boat, so everything is the same in your nation. So a very good experience that I suggest to each chapter to start.
H.J
Thank you. So then thinking about, actually, I just wanted to pick up on one thing you were talking about there, the language, which obviously we as native English speakers have as the kind of luxury, if you like that, when things are in a shared language, they are often in English, which is quite easy for us. How does that, How hard or easy is that to for example, work with Romania, work with Syria and have to use for both of you to be using a language that isn't your own.
S.P
Well, actually, I mean, I do really like languages so and I think it's fun to when you meet someone who is not a native English speaker, to find your own vocabulary, like you build up your own vocabulary, which maybe it's not even English, it's not Italian, it's not Syrian, it's not Romanian, but somehow you understand each other, and that's fun. But I have to say that sometimes it can be a barrier, because, like maybe not all the, not all our members felt confident to facilitate in English. So, yeah, so you really need to encourage them that you will find a way to build up your vocab, vocabulary. And also, I think that during the sessions, there is this, at least for me, like, kind of worried that I may not understand well what people are saying, and maybe I my facilitation could be, you know, so and so. And so, you really need to trust yourself, I think, a little bit more, but also, and that's why I really like facilitation, you can always rely on your co facilitator, so if you or make a joke about it, so if you are two, if it's two, you know facilitators not speaking English as a native language, I think it's a lot easier to to manage that.
A.P
If I could share, I remember my first online meeting with the monthly meeting with the European Middle East, and I was so scared about the language, because I never studied English, so I learned by myself. So I was so scared or what, what I could say with these facilitators, so professional facilitator. And there was, I met Andrew Spiteri, you know, in a breakout room, and he was so polite, so friendly, that I was very relaxed. And after that meeting, I said myself, everything will be okay. Don't, don't, don't be scared. Don't worry about the English. And you can also use para verbal and don't speak.
H.J
Yeah,that's always a fall back, isn't it? Wow, yes, I've delivered training in a different language. Anyway, moving on. So yeah, looking ahead, what's happening in the near future in IAF Italy and yeah, how would you like to see things develop over the next few years?
S.P
Okay, so looking ahead, so our focus, I think, remain on strengthening the culture of participation and participation in general. For sure, public participation is, you know, something that is important for us. And also, yeah, having this thing that I mentioned before that having the professional facilitator formally recognised. So something, yeah, it's like to we would like, yeah, this profession to be seen and understood and recognised at a, you know, an institutional level. This is the general, you know, the frame. So in the near future, of course, there is the next general conference. I know it's we are a year ahead, but it takes a lot of work. And of course, the conference is organised by Gerardo, but it's in collaboration with the Chapter. So we are working on improving the model, the new method that we experimented last year. And so we want to see where it goes if we keep working on that. So with this preparation path, and try to trying to scout a little bit new facilitators and see if they want to put themselves to the test, you know. So that it can be the annual conference, can be a place where people, even less experienced facilitators, can can try it, can grow, can know facilitation better and know themselves better as facilitators. This is Yeah, in the near future. In the long term, I think we would like to, the Chapter to transform into a proper, real, like community, where facilitators can share, can support each other, can network and also create work opportunities together. We what we would like is that people feel free to ask each other for help, for support, if they are short of ideas or about a session or a method or something like that. Then we want people to rely on each other, and we want to facilitate this trust building process, I don't know. And also, we would like the chapter to be a point of reference at the national level for organisations who are seeking facilitator facilitation services or just want to learn something more about it. So we would like to be Yeah, like a subject, someone people facilitators and organisation can rely on and can go and ask for help or information.
H.J
Great. Anything else from you Andrea? Any other thoughts on the future?
A.P
Of course, you know, I'm not now the chapter leader, but I absolutely have some ideas. And Sara had said something very important for me, so support the facilitator and to give them visibility. Organise moment to present facilitator to clients, to to factories, to person that don't know facilitator, and have to know and have to use facilitator because it's better. And when you try facilitator, you ask to yourself, why I didn't do it before. So I want to that IAF Italy support also the professional part of the individual facilitator and for me, it's very important, because in Italy, we need to grow with numbers. And I mean, also in Europe, but in our case, we have to make grow the knowledge of facilitators.
S.P
I would just like to add that, I mean, my personal dream is also, of course, since I work in public administration, to bring facilitation in public administration, you know. So this is something that I try to do, you know, very, very small things in my everyday life, at work, but this is, it's more a personal dream this, but I would like to mention that as well, because I think we really need that. We do have, I think that facilitation is kind of entering institutions at a small, at the municipal level, so, you know, town hall level. But in the bigger institution which I belong to, I don't see that much, and I think we really, really, really need that. And also I think that for the for the chapter, something that we should try to, should invest on is young facilitators, of course, and this is also a campaign that IAF global is carrying on. We know that some of our members did join initiatives that have been carried on at the global level. And we are very happy about that. And I also, I would like to maybe this is also a personal, a personal dream. But I really like the share and learn idea, you know, the series that we have at the global level. And I would like that to have that maybe at a chapter level, maybe Italian, maybe even in a more structured way, maybe easier. So something that not felt like kind of overwhelming by people, but that can be, you know, a way to to exchange between peers,
N.W
Great, well, lots of big plans and you've got a big work agenda ahead of you, but it sounds like some, some great ambitions there, and really interesting different things that you're getting involved in. So just before we wrap up then, where should we go if we want to find out more about you and the IAF Italy Chapter?
S.P
We have a website, and then we also you can reach us, reach us at our email. So the website is, of course, www.Iaf-italy.org , and the email [email protected] so you can always write to us, we always answer and see, check our emails. And you can also write to me. My email is [email protected] and yeah, this is, this is our contact.
H.J
Thank you so much. So I think it just leaves us to say thank you for joining us today, Sara and Andrea. It has been really fascinating talking to you and hearing all about IAF Italy, past, present and future. And hopefully we'll get a chance to speak to you again soon.
S.P
Thank you. Thank you Helene and Nikki for the invitation. It was my first experience, and I'm really happy about it.
A.P
Thank you so much for the invitation.
H.J
So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of Facilitation Stories, the community podcast for IAF, England and Wales.
N.W
If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved, all of the links are on our website, facilitationstories.com
H.J
And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use
N.W
We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to?
H.J
Or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about.
N.W
Send us an email at [email protected]
H.J
We hope you'll join us again soon for more Facilitation Stories.
N.W
Until then, thank you for listening.
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In this episode Nikki talks to Suzannah Lansdell about Public Dialogue. Suzannah is a freelance facilitator who also advises organisations on how to do public and stakeholder dialogue, particularly in the science and technology sector for Sciencewise.
They talk about
Public Dialogue as a process bringing together members of the public with specialists and policy makers to discuss complex and controversial topics and gather public insights on the issues without necessarily coming to firm recommendations;
âthis is this is not a Focus Group. It's not kind of top of mind views. It's digging behind thatâ
How members of the public are engaged to take part;The role of a facilitator in Public Dialogue and how itâs different from other types of facilitation;
Some recent topics for Public Dialogue including Embryo Research, Future Flight and the role of Data;
The experience of participants and how this differs from other consultative processes;
âone of the key things about Public Dialogue as you give people the time to kind of wrestle around the issue and think more deeply.â
How information is shared with participants, including striking a balance on the level of detail and the importance of including a diverse range of specialist perspectives;Evaluation in Public Dialogue and the focus on monitoring longer term impacts from the process;
Suzannahâs hopes and expectations for the future of Public Dialogue, becoming more embedded in policy making and democratic processes.
A full transcript is below.
Links
Todayâs guest:
Suzannah Lansdell on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/suzannah-lansdell-ab23a78
Todayâs subject
Sciencewise: https://sciencewise.org.uk/
Involve Resources: https://involve.org.uk/resources/knowledge-base/resources
Involve Methods: https://involve.org.uk/resources/methods
To find out more about Facilitation Stories and the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter:
Facilitation Stories website: https://facilitationstories.libsyn.com/
And to email us: [email protected]
IAF England and Wales: https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales
The Facilitation Stories Team:
Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Transcript
N.W
Hello, and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson (NW) and today I'm going to be talking to Suzannah Lansdell (SL) about public dialogue. So welcome, Suzannah.
S.L
Thanks, Nikki, lovely to be here.
N.W
Okay, so to start off with, could you tell us a little bit more about you and what you do.
S.L
So I'm a freelance facilitator, I've been doing that for about 15 years or so. I started, and so how I got into it just as a bit of context, as it sort of helps a bit with the public dialogue is, I started working for an environment charity back in the 90s. And I was doing a lot of work then with businesses, convincing them that there were commercial implications around environment sustainability issues. But one part of that the charity had was also about consensus building, about how do you get different organisations to approach environment sustainability issues, that at that time in the 90s, were very kind of adversarial in a more kind of consensus based approach. And absolutely core to that was facilitation, as a way to, to break through that more adversarial approach. So then I started working a lot on that and I kind of cut my teeth on some of the big issues of the day, things like nuclear waste, oil disposal, oil infrastructure disposal, biotechnology. So some really kind of big issues where people were on opposing sides and a facilitative approach helped people to kind of have more constructive conversations and find a way through. So that's kind of where I cut my teeth. And then moving on, what I'm much more doing now is that I advise and I support organisations on how they do public and stakeholder dialogue, and particularly around public dialogue work for an organisation called Science wise, that looks at public dialogue around science and technology. But I also do some kind of keeping my oar in on the practice in terms of facilitating citizens assemblies, and other kind of processes involved with the public. And then a little spattering of training in facilitation and a little bit of kind of charity away days, but most of my work at the moment is around the kind of public dialogue in science and technology.
N.W
Okay, great. And that was a very neat segue into today's topic, which is about public dialogue. So for listeners that aren't familiar with this term, what do we mean by public dialogue?
S.L
I suppose in its simplest terms, it's a process where you've got members of the public coming together with specialists and policymakers and other stakeholders to deliberate and have conversations about usually kind of complex or controversial topics. And they do that over several hours, so this is not a focus group, it's not kind of Top of Mind views. It's digging behind that. So you give people a lot of time to think about the issues and to have conversations with those specialists, but also fellow participants. So probably people are maybe deliberating over 10 hours or a couple of weekends. It can be online, it can be face to face, it can be a bit of a mix of both. The key purpose is to get those insights from the public to feed into kind of a decision whether that be a policy or whether that be a strategy. And some people might have heard of the term of mini Publics, so it sort of fits within that frame of mini Publics. And we could talk a bit more about who's the public in this. The key difference that I see with public dialogue is that unlike, for example, citizens juries or citizens assemblies, we don't usually ask people to come up with or vote on recommendations or come up with specific recommendations. It's much more that they're kind of invited to explore that issue and then there are insights that come from that, but it's not taking it to that kind of final this is what this group of people think and vote on.
N.W
And so who would normally be the sort of Commissioner of the public dialogue who would bring those groups together?
S.L
It would be a decision maker. So it'd be somebody that has some traction over that issue. It might be that they own the policy or that they own the strategy the public dialogue is feeding into. So that could be a government department, it could be a Research Council, it could be a regulator. So usually at that sort of level.
N.W
And you touched on this a moment ago, but mini publics as it were, who normally would get involved in these, and how would they get involved?
S.L
Yeah, so I think what's really important to know with public dialogue, or indeed any of those mini publics is that these are not public participants that choose to sign up, because they've seen it in their local paper or something, they are kind of randomly recruited to take part in this process. So what you're trying to do is to get a reflective group of the population to be part of these processes, and they're paid to attend. So you're getting over that slight bias that you might have, if you have a local meeting, for example, where just those people with the time and the inclination, and already with an interest in the topic turn up. So you're recruiting them kind of randomly, and that might be that they are approached on the street and it might be that they are approached through some kind of invitation. So usually, for example, on citizens assemblies, they're approached through a sortition approach, which is, you randomly receive an invitation through the post. Most public dialogues, it's recruited sort of on the street. And then you're looking for a kind of demographic, as I say, that kind of reflects the population, whether that be gender, whether that be where people are from, it might be things like whether the urban and rural split, it might be to do with the age profile, so that you've sort of got a little mini public in the room that you're having that conversation within.
N.W
Have you got any examples of recent topics that you've seen covered in a public dialogue, just to bring that to life, I suppose.
S.L
Well certainly. So the science wise work that I work on, it's, I mean, as you might expect, it's kind of around science and tech innovation, sorts of topics. So some of the recent ones have been things like embryo research, and where that goes in the future. Future flight technologies. So there's a whole new area of kind of innovation around future flight and what does the public think about where that might go? BioMed adaptation has been another one. Lots around kind of data, what do people think about data that is held on them or data that might be used? Where are the boundaries around that? And through things like genome editing in farmed animals, so a real range across that sort of science and tech space.
N.W
So obviously, we've talked about the commissioners and the public involved in this, but this is facilitation stories. So what would you say the role of facilitators is in a public dialogue? And how, in your experience, is that different from other types of facilitation?
S.L
So I suppose, obviously, there's the core basics of facilitation, that are the same, but I suppose, for me, the real the things that really stands out are that, absolutely, as with lots of other facilitation, your view on a topic has to really stand down you can't be seen to influence the process in one way or another. And when some of those topics they're very kind of emotive. Another thing is that because you've got a group of the public there, so I suppose those two things, you're likely to be part of a bigger team. So the number of participants involved in a public dialogue might be, it might be 30, but it may well be closer to sort of 100. So there's a team of facilitators, you've got a group on your table, say if you're just a table facilitator of seven or eight participants, and they're public participants who, it's not like if you were, say, working in with an organisation where you might have a bit of insight as to who's going to pop up on your table, you might have people there who are really not confident in speaking or, or who might have literacy challenges, or who might have English as a second language. So you've got to sort of adapt to that group of participants that you have, and work with them to build their confidence to express their views about the sorts of issues that are under consideration. And then I think this notion that you're part of a team of facilitators, you're all doing the sort of similar process on separate tables, and that is part of a bigger jigsaw piece. So you sort of got to manage how your group is responding to those questions and that plan that you've got, and knowing that you need to kind of get to an output for that specific section, because it fits together into the whole jigsaw piece of the whole process. So I think that that's an interesting dynamic. It's not like you're there and you're kind of controlling the whole space. Of course, I'm talking there about a table facilitator and then there's the kind of facilitator who's kind of orchestrating the whole piece as well. I mean it's fascinating working with the public, that's the bit that I just find so interesting is giving people the opportunity to have their voice heard in these issues and people love it. But as a facilitator kind of getting to the point where people are comfortable to do that is interesting.
N.W
Yeah, I mean, I haven't mentioned as we've been talking, but I have facilitated in these environments. And I think one of the things that I always find so fascinating is that you can have a whole load of different groups essentially following the same framework and process and they will come out with completely different things, or they will respond to the materials in completely different ways. And you've got such a close comparison, because they're all in the room together with half an hour, or whatever it is, and I just find that fascinating, or I've done some where I've done the same process two nights in a row with different groups. And literally, it's nothing to do with how I facilitated it because I was the same person. But yeah, so interesting to see how different groups respond to the material.
S.L
And sorry, I was just going to say. And also giving people the opportunity, because of course, you've got a mini public there. They, the participants themselves are meeting people that are from all sorts of different walks of life, and seeing how they reflect also on other people's contribution and how that adjusts their views. And again, that, for me, is one of the key things about public dialogue, as you give people the time to kind of wrestle around the issue and think more deeply.
N.W
Yeah, absolutely. And again, I mean, we've touched on this a little bit, but obviously, this can often be about quite complex subject matter, you've given some examples at the beginning, and the participants will have varying degrees of prior knowledge. So obviously, giving them some information is one of the key things in this, what have you seen works particularly well, in how you present that information to people and perhaps not so well?
S.L
So yeah, absolutely, you kind of have to give people enough information that they can deliberate on it, but not so much and that for me is the real critical point is that it's boiling it down into what is the appropriate level of detail, participants don't need to have a PhD in the topic. And they very quickly, participants really quickly kind of get to grips with what the topic is. So for me, the really crucial things is that you have to have specialists from a diversity of perspectives. So that participants can kind of reach into the corners of the issues and what the different kind of takes are on that. And I know most of the time it is done through some form of kind of presentation. But it's really important to pick your specialists well, that they can talk in an accessible way or brief them well to do that, and make sure that you know what it is that they're saying, that you get to look at their slides beforehand and make sure that it is accessible. It's not kind of reams and reams of really detailed stuff. But other ways in which the worst sorts of information imparting are where you have a really long, dense presentation. So that's designed out. You tend to give it in small bite sized, probably no more than 10 minute type of talks, you layer up the sort of information that you're giving to people so that they've got these sort of bite sized chunks, and they're hearing from different perspectives. But as well as hearing from different perspectives, you sometimes in public dialogues, you can also interview people before the dialogue and put that into provocation, kind of cards or animations or sort of pictorial scenarios so that people can access the information in different sorts of ways. What's really crucial is that they hear from different perspectives, they get a chance to sort of question and interrogate that, and it's not in a kind of overly complex way. So that's the real skill of who's designing the whole process, is making sure that we're hearing the right sort of information enough for participants to get to grips with it, but not so much that they're just listening to reams and reams of presentations, because that's not the point. The point is not to kind of come out with an educated public. The point is, is that we want to hear what participants kind of deliberations and insights on having known enough about the topic.
N.W
yeah, and I suppose almost that instinctive reaction or whatever it is that they have picked out from a presentation that's most important for them is a valuable insight in the first place is that, actually what is it that they're taking away from all of the information they've been given?
S.L
Yep. What's really nice is if you have the opportunity and the processes, which because they're run over a number of sessions you can often do this, is to ask participants also what might be missing or what they might have to revisit. And, again, if you've got a specialist sort of in the room, whether that's a virtual or real room, using them as a kind of resource to be able to pull on as well is really important.
N.W
Yeah, I think that we perhaps haven't made that clear that quite often those experts will give a presentation but then they are still available to chip in, to answer questions, to clarify bits. So that's really interesting, too. Yeah. And again, so while it's not unique to public dialogue, I think something that a lot of the processes involve is a really kind of structured evaluation. So could you tell us a little bit more about that? And how it sort of fits in the overall process?
S.L
Yeah, yeah and certainly for science wise public dialogue. So just actually, to really quickly scale back. So science wise supports government departments, research councils to do public dialogue and kind of mentor supports those organisations, but also provides some co-funding. So there's always an independent evaluation that sits alongside that public dialogue. And that both I think, quite uniquely, for this evaluation, it sits at the beginning, and it can give sort of formative input throughout the process as it's being designed. But also it produces a kind of summative evaluation at the end. So what is it that participants have felt? What is it that specialists have felt? So gathering all of that data like you might do, usually in a kind of evaluation. So it's more than just observing the sessions, doing a participant survey and reporting on that. And the other thing that I think is kind of really important is, again, certainly for science wise dialogues is that there's a sort of interim report when the dialogue report comes out. But then we go back or the evaluator goes back six months later, and says, right, what was the impact of this public dialogue? And that, to me, is really, really crucial so that you know where has it influenced? You said at the beginning, that this was going to be something that inputted into this policy, or that inputted into this strategy. Six months on what has happened? Have those impacts happened? Have other things happened that have been as a result of that public dialogue process?
N.W
And I suppose with that in mind, have you got any examples of where you've seen really specific big changes that have come out of those that you can sort of share? So obviously, a lot of them are still in progress.
S.L
Yeah, sure. Well, I suppose the one that quite often is, is quoted and this is going back a little way. I mean if you look at the science wise website, there's always the evaluation reports are up there as well. And they, certainly the more recent ones, kind of capture those impacts. So it might be that it's led to a whole raft of new social science research. But one of the ones particularly that's quoted is around something called mitochondrial transfer, and this was quite a controversial area of research. A public dialogue was held which helped inform. Then the recommendations of what was the human fertilisation embryology authority, the HFEA , who regulates all of that, and that then fed into changing the law on what was allowed in terms of this mitochondrial transfer. Whilst they would have done other stakeholder work, they would have listened to what experts thought about this, actually hearing about what the public thought, whether this was the right way to go, what were the sorts of limits? What were the red lines? What sort of conditions should be in place? Formed a really kind of core plank of then what that recommendation and ultimately, the kind of law change signifies. So it can have some big impacts and what I see a lot with public dialogue, and we'll kind of think about this into the future is, lots of government agencies, or any key decision making authority is really familiar with thinking about how they involve their kind of traditional stakeholders. But thinking about how they really hear from what the public thinks is a more tricky area for them to grapple with. So public dialogue provides one route in which they can really understand, what do the public think about this having had a bit more time to think about it. What drives their concerns or their hopes or their aspirations around this particular topic? And that, for me, is always the missing pieces, like, how are we hearing the public voice in this new development? Because it's not a given that that will always happen.
N.W
And so, I suppose building on that then, are there particular trends or developments that you're seeing happening currently or on the horizon for public dialogue? Where do you think it could go?
S.L
So I mean, I hope, and I think that there will be a move towards this. Rather than this being something that is a sort of almost optional add on, or specifically for some topics that are quite high profile, or kind of think that they might be controversial, but actually, it becomes a much more embedded part of both policy and strategy. So that rather than âOh, crikey, we need to think about doing a public dialogueâ, but it's something that's just automatically built into the policy strategy development process for those topics. So it's not saying that it should be used in every circumstance, but that it's much more kind of part of the normal suite of tools that policy makers will be thinking about, that there's that check. Oh, hang on a minute, how are we thinking about public voice? Do we need to do a public dialogue? Do we need to do some other kinds of, you know , how are we going to get that public insight into the development of our policies? Doing public dialogue is about making better decisions by getting public insight into that process. I think the other thing that I would just say is that I think increasingly, whilst the approach is about making better decisions, better policies, I think it will become more clearly linked with sort of a democratic process that ultimately, certainly, if we're talking about science and tech, whether we're talking about climate change with, for example, citizens assemblies, on climate change,that these are things that are affecting people, participant people day to day. If there's a new science or tech development, it's helping us and a lot of that research is funded by the public. So where's the sort of right, almost for the public to have a more considered, say, in the development of those areas?
N.W
And I think what you say there is interesting as well, because obviously a lot of this is technical information. But in the main, there are ways that people find it does relate to their day to day life in some way. And I think that's another quite important tool potentially, is making it feel like something that people have a grounding in their daily life,even if they don't know all of the technical details, isn't it? So they can deliberate with their own perspective on that?.
S.L
Absolutely, I mean, those examples I gave before, they're about the food that we eat, or about the impact of climate on our infrastructure. They're about what we think is right, or how far science should go. If we're looking at AI, or we're looking at these exciting, but also fast developments that are happening in science and tech, there has to be, and this is why I talk about quite often with the people thinking about commissioning, it's got to align with social values. If it's really out of step with that, I think we saw that a lot with GM in the early 2000s, then people start getting really concerned about it. So what's right? What's wrong? Or how should it go? Where are the sorts of red lines? What are the sorts of conditions under which this technology should develop? could develop? shouldn't develop? Understanding that for a policymaker, or for strategies is kind of gold dust really.
N.W
Excellent, well, I mean, it's all so fascinating, we could probably talk all day about it, but
S.L
Just scratched the surface .
N.W
Exactly. And with that in mind, if listeners want to find out more about public dialogue, what would you say the best places to look?
S.L
So I would say there's two. Obviously, I've talked quite a lot about science wise, and sciencewise.org.uk is the website,there's a lot there about public dialogue, but also lots of reports from previous public dialogues. And then the other place that I always kind of point people towards is the involve website. So if you just Google involve, and particularly, I think it's involve.org.uk .Particularly their methods and Resource Bank section. So the methods obviously covers lots of methods, but their resource section there is super useful and that will also touch on things which we haven't delved into as much here, sort of citizens assemblies, citizens juries and other sorts of, kind of public participation processes.
N.W
Right. And we can put those links in the show notes as well. And, and if listeners would like to find out more specifically about your work or get in touch with you, what would you suggest?
S.L
Look me up on LinkedIn as a start. Okay, that's probably the easiest, easiest place really.
N.W
Well, we'll put that in the show notes too. So thank you so much, Suzannah, for your time and your contribution today. It's been really interesting to chat to you.
S.L
Thank you, Nikki.
N.W
Thank you again. Have a lovely day. Bye.
Outro
So listeners, we've reached the end of another episode of facilitation stories, the community podcast, IAF England and Wales.
If you'd like to find out more about the IAF and how to get involved all of the links on our website, facilitationstories.com.
And to make sure you never miss an episode, why not subscribe to the show on whatever podcast app you use?
We're always on the lookout for new episode ideas. So is there a fabulous facilitator you think we should talk to or something interesting emerging in the world of facilitation you think listeners need to hear about send us an email at [email protected]
We hope you'll join us again soon for more Facilitation Stories.
Until then, thank you for listening
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In this episode Helene talks to Paul Brand, Director of Risk Solutions and part of the IAF England and Wales Leadership Team, Board member and conference team member.
They talk about
The IAF England and Wales facilitators and friends Facilitate 2024 Conference (April 26th & 27th 2024) and what it is all about.
Who is on the organising team and what Paul's role has been
What is different from last year's conference What kinds of sessions we can expect What he is looking forward to A bit about the participants some of whom are coming from outsde the UK How the IAF England and Wales conferences have grown over the years and what makes them successful "it is a bit like a buffet and having taste of this and a taste of that." "what really makes me happy about the whole thing, and inspired by it, is watching people enter into it and throw themselves into it. Watching them having conversations with people they've never met and would never meet and, and go away taking whatever it is they've taken from the conference".A full transcript is below.
Links
Todayâs guest was Dr Paul Brand
https://www.linkedin.com/in/drpaulbrand/
https://risksol.co.uk/
Todayâs subject
The Facilitate 2024 Conference
https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/facilitate2024-growingtogether-tickets-733547288687?aff=oddtdtcreator
To find out more about the IAF and the England and Wales Chapter
https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/england-wales
The Facilitation Stories Team
Helene Jewell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Nikki Wilson: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Transcript
Hello and welcome to facilitation stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Helene Jewell and today I'm talking to Paul Brand,a management consultant whose work focuses on public policy.
He often works on long term engagements across entire sectors for multi organisation communities, and uses facilitation extensively in his work.
He's also an IAF England Wales board member, certified professional facilitator and a member of the conference planning team. Welcome, Paul. Good morning.
It is morning. It is morning. Good.
It is morning. It is morning. So my first question is just to ask you, really to tell us a little bit more about you as a facilitator and your involvement in the IAF.
So I came into facilitation like a lot of people, not quite realizing I was doing it, doing a lot of public policy consulting things, and needing somebody who would lead groups of people through discussions. And then that became a better understanding of what facilitation as a profession was all about. And that grew and grew over the years.
I did a long piece of work in the about 2011 2012, working with a very senior IAF board member. We did a lot of events together, and during that time I understood what the IAF was about and realized I needed to actually make my facilitation skills part of my professional development formally. So I did the IAF certified professional facilitator thing in 2012, which was quite a developmental experience in itself, and I keep that up to this day.
And then over the last four or five years, I've become more and more involved in the workings of IAF, in England and Wales particularly, and have also had the privilege of attending a couple of the european conferences in Paris and Milan, finding out how our colleagues across the channel do it. So it's been an arc of development. Yeah, an arc of development slowly, slowly coming further and further in.
And obviously we're here today to talk about the about conference. So let's start off with the kind of, the basic stuff. So IAF England and Wales conference in April, I guess.
What do we need to know? The dates, where it is, what is it all about? So it is Friday and Saturday, the 26th and 27 April. And for quite a few years now, we've done this Friday Saturday mix seems to balance that. Some of the people, depending on their work and professional lives, some of them can, you know, share those two days, rather than it being two days out mid week or two days at a weekend.
It is in Birmingham it is at a venue called the Priory rooms, which is quite close to the middle of Birmingham. It's very easy to get to, and it's two full days, the Friday and the Saturday. It is quite broadly based.
We had about 70 people last year. As of yesterday, we've got 100 people coming this year, and we're going to have to cap it at 120 for venue reasons, which is a really nice, really nice set of challenges to have. That is.
That is. So there are a few more tickets. We are recording this a little bit before the conference, obviously, but there are, at the moment, a few tickets left.
It's about 20 whole two day tickets left. We have to stop it at 120 because just moving that many people around the venue, because of the safe of it, becomes a limit on that. You can book single day tickets.
So even after full tickets closed, there might be some one day tickets left. There's about ten or 15 people coming on one day or the other, but most people are there for the two days. Fantastic.
And so obviously, a lot of work goes into organizing the conference. I know that we worked quite closely together doing the hybrid conference of years ago. Tell us a little bit about the organizing team.
Who's on it? What do they do? How have you kind of made things work from behind the scenes? So the conference team is all volunteers. Obviously, everything in this group is. It is so two thirds people who are also on the England and Wales leadership group.
So they have wider interest in the if group and some people who just do the conference. The core of it, of course, is the people who put the program together, which is a team of three or four people. And so this year, with this sort of numbers, we're running four parallel tracks during most of those two days.
And there are four very, very broad sort of types of session. They're all interactive sessions. There's no big lectures at this conference, but there's a thread which is learning facilitation tools, techniques, skills, that kind of thing.
There's a thread which are sessions which are about growing and personal development and reflection. There's a thread which is about work and business, professional development, everything from how to run a business, because quite a lot of people are freelancers in this thing, as opposed to working in house. And what the differences are there, even down to, you know, how do we think about charging for our time, depending on the context? And then we've got a fourth thread this year, which is actually on the whole area of diversity, inclusivity, lived experience, and what do we need to learn as facilitators in this generation about how we handle those issues, even if that's not the topic of the discussion.
You might be doing a session on something very engineering or very management based, but how are you managing diversity, inclusion and dealing with people's lived experience in different areas? So there's quite a variety of stuff. There's four parallel tracks. There's no big lectures.
There's some opening and closing sessions and any sense of how many. You probably do know this, I expect it's written down somewhere. But how many different sessions are there altogether? 30 ish, because we're running, apart from the opening and closing each day, we're running four tracks all the time from, like, from when we set off on the Friday morning until Saturday afternoon.
And there's a closing plenary, so there's about 30 dishes to take from the buffet and you can go to about a quarter of those. If you. If you went to a session in every slot, you could go to about a quarter of that number.
But then there'll be other ways of accessing some of that material and talking to other people and stuff. So it is a bit like a buffet and having taste of this and a taste of that. That sounds like there's so much to choose from and that's the important thing, isn't it? You're not sort of channeled in a particular direction.
You can choose what you want to suit you. I would say what's quite interesting, because I was at a session this morning talking with some of the session leaders. We've got quite a few people who are not only coming for the conference for the first time, but they're jumping in the deep end and are doing a session and this is their first contact with IAF.
So that's quite exciting and quite brave of them. It is. I was going to ask, actually, how many people doing sort of offering sessions have not done it before? Because some people do offer sessions sort of fairly regularly at the IAF conferences.
We counted it up last year and we reckoned it split about a third. A third? A third. A third of the people were, you know, connected into IAF.
They were probably members, they were involved in something, that kind of thing. There was about a third who we might count as IAF friends. They.
This wasn't their first IAF event experience. They. Maybe they come to meetups or they'd been to a previous conference or they knew somebody.
And about a third of the people last year, they had just heard of this conference, they just heard of IAF and they came along, and that was their first baptism of fire, if you like. So I don't know if the balance is the same yesterday, but there's certainly, there's that breadth coming that's really nice and really good that there's sort of some, I guess, old hands, if you like, that are sort of really familiar with. Very politely put, helen, very experienced facilitators who are coming back to share their wisdom again and some new faces.
My really strong memory last year was a young woman who came from another country. We'll talk about that in a minute. She contacted us very hesitant, said, I'm not from the UK.
I studied in the UK. I want to come over and see my university friends. I want to come to the conference.
What do you think about me doing a session? Would it be okay? I'm not that experienced as a facilitator, and I'm really new to IAF, so we encouraged her to come over and go for it. She was really quite frightened when she turned up on the day. She was brilliant.
It was a lovely session. It was really, really good, because one of the things that happens is everybody coming to this conference in the past, they realize that they've been on the other side of this. So there's a willingness to explore new ground with someone who's been trying to facilitate something and encourage them and go along with their process and their game or whatever it is.
So it becomes a very positive place even to try something completely new, even if you're very nervous. And I'm sure that will happen again this year. We'll have someone doing that.
And I know I've always felt, when I've gone to the conferences before, really felt that actually, that it's quite, the phrase is a little bit overused, safe space to actually explore and experiment and have a go. And it's a really supportive community, isn't it? So, you know, nobody's going to turn around and go, oh, no, I didn't like that. You know, there may be some reflective comments and all the rest of it, but it's all very, very supportive.
So, yeah, if you are jumping in for the first time, and that's an intentional sort of cultural feel of the conference that I think we've tried to maintain certainly since, I mean, the first one I went to was 2019, and that feeling was already there, you know, and when you've got people who are everything from, you know, the kind of work I do in the public sector with being industry clients, but we've got people who are deeply involved in social. Social interaction, you know, social issues of mental health, all those kind of areas, or they're working with people in deprivation. You've got people working in the private sector, and there's an openness to say this is interesting.
It's not the kind of work I do, but I really found what you did there really thoughtful, and maybe I can translate that back into my world. That's one of the things I love most about these two days. And I guess that's facilitation in general, isn't it, though? It's such a broad array of different, you know, there's so many different ways to look at it, different takes on it.
So it's really nice that there's that appetite to kind of bring that huge range together in one place. Nice. Okay.
And are you able to. I know you're doing a session, aren't you? I was just going to say, could you maybe give us one or two, a flavor of one or two of the sessions you think are coming up? Tell us about your session, maybe from the four tracks. I know there are people coming and teaching particular skills.
I think we've got someone doing some of the ICA facilitation technique stuff and demonstrating some of that. There are people. There's one.
One. Someone's going to do something on the thinking organization, which I'm pretty sure is based on the work of Nancy Klein. Go Google, Nancy Klein thinking organization.
We're going to do one myself and one of my fellow resolutions, Helen and Amelia Wakeford, who's also in the IAF group, we have found as a little trio that a lot of what we're doing now could be put under the very, very broad umbrella of systems thinking. It's thinking about how different parts of an organization fit together to do something, getting people out of siloed organizations in local government or central government or charity, whatever. And it's a big focus in the public sector now, particularly from the chief scientific advisors.
So we're going to do a session that looks at the breadth of what falls under that umbrella of system thinking, everything from rich pictures right the way through to people who actually put numbers and money and things into them. We'll have a little go and we'll probably go into the area of what if the system is complex, or we'll talk about wicked problems and stuff like that. How far can you go with this, especially? Maybe you've got limited time and energy and money and actually start to deal with the complexity in systems rather than simplifying it out and then ignoring it and then wondering why it doesn't work.
Well, it's because you took all the complexity out of it. So that'll be a fun hands on session, and it's something we do a lot of. Brilliant.
I think I quite like the look of your session, actually. The program is coming out for the conference very, very soon. It's being formed up now, so very soon it'll be on social media and everybody will be able to see what's going on.
Great. Okay. What specifically are you looking forward to? I think you sort of mentioned a couple of minutes ago that, you know, that the whole sort of diversity of different, you know, seeing lots of different people doing different types of facilitation.
But what else are you looking forward to from the conference? Probably don't say it being over and you not having to organize it anymore. No, that's not really a big thing. Everybody's tired on the Saturday night.
Yes. Content side. I like the fact that over the weekend I can go to something intentionally that I think I know nothing about what they're going to do.
It's going to be completely alien. Let's go and see. Let's go and play.
Let's go and explore that. And whenever I do that, something completely different to what I do, I always come away with maybe two or three bullets. And I'm thinking, that's really interesting.
I can use that in what I do. The second thing, and I'm going to give you three. Good to have threes.
Second thing is I love watching other people do it. I know people at the conference, but then you go and watch them do a session, and there's always something to learn about it could be the style they do it, the way they talk about it. It could be the method.
It could be this way. I love watching other people facilitate because we don't always get to do that. You know, so often you have to do your stuff and do your way, and watching anybody doing it the way they do it gives you some interesting things to learn.
And then the last thing is, because of the nature of the conference that we've talked about, I'm just really enthused over two days to watch people eating and drinking, if you like. I don't mean the food, I mean the content of the process, the energy we put into organizing it. There is a lot of energy in putting the content together.
But what really makes me happy about the whole thing, and inspired by it, is watching people enter into it and throw themselves into it. Watching them having conversations with people they've never met and would never meet and, and go away taking whatever it is they've taken from the conference. We will never know all the things, but I've really enjoyed over the three or four I've been involved in, watching the people go in, eat effectively, eat and drink the context of the experience, and then go away full and enthused.
And then you watch the communications in the weeks afterwards on social media, on LinkedIn or whatever, you're in contact with them and how the buzz carries on. And, you know, last year we had 70 people. This year we've got 100.
We haven't even announced the program yet. That is word of mouth. A lot of it is people who came last year or the year before and have said they're coming and have told somebody else, and now they're coming, too, which I think is brilliant.
And that says quite a lot about us as a community. I think about how we kind of interact with each other and how we talk about all this stuff. And I do remember thinking about that, your sort of third thing you're looking forward to last year, certainly feeling that energy, and you're right, that buzz afterwards.
And it is a very energizing and, you know, slightly exhausting as well. But there's always two sides of the same thing, but that sort of real energy, feeling very energized. And then, as you say, yeah, just talking about it for ages afterwards and meeting some amazing people, it's a really great space to do that.
Okay. And thinking about the people then that are coming. I think this year we've also got quite a few people, or some people at least, who are coming from outside the UK, quite a long way outside the UK as well.
We're, of course, immensely privileged in running a conference in English as our home language. And never forget that english people, how privileged you are about to have that in that. That means other people, if they've got English as a second language, can come and join in, which is more challenging.
I would be really challenged this week at the conference in Italy because that's going to be in Italian. So we often had people, I remember people coming from Holland last year with Belgium and one of the others. This has been very interesting.
There's someone coming from, if Italy, Tanzania, South Africa, Hong Kong. And we might have somebody coming from one of the Middle east chapters. We're not quite sure.
These are people who've got to get visas to come to the UK. They can't just jump on a plane and come. Those are the four or five.
I know about. There might be others because I haven't seen the full ticketing list. And these are people who want to come and get some of what we've been talking about before and take it home.
So I talked to people last year from one or two other countries. One of their objectives of coming was to say, we've heard about the way this conference runs. We'd like to come and experience it and then maybe take a bit of that back and do that where we are.
And one country particularly, I don't think it had a conference for some years, and this year in May, they're doing one day as a start, but they're going to do that. Another, they don't know they're doing conferences in their country, and they've taken bits of what we've done and said, oh, yeah, we could do a bit like that as well, mold it to their own culture and their own local needs. So that's a real privilege to have people coming in for those reasons.
That's amazing and really good that those people and other people presumably see it, see this conference and see, you know, what's been happening over the last few years when we've been doing conferences as something that is, I don't know, maybe inspirational, maybe, you know, it's something that other people can take something from, as you say, which is really exciting. So it's not just the day or two days. It's got legs.
It's, you know, reaching out a lot further. I went whatever year it was, I went to the european IAF conference, all the european chapters in Milan. And so because it was a european conference, they did it in English, not in Italian.
Normally they do it in Italian, and it had a very similar feel in some ways. They were obviously tapping into some of the same things that we're seeing as valuable in terms of their choice of venue and the way they ran it and stuff. This very, very open approach to conference for facilitation, I think has some real payoffs, real benefits.
And so I think this is about maybe the 7th or so England and Wales conference that we have put on, because I remember quite a few years ago there being sort of large meetups that have slowly, over the years, morphed into actual big conferences like this. And I know there have also been several IAF european conferences as you just sort of talked about. Obviously, they've grown.
They've become, you know, it sounds like they've become definitely more of a, you know, people know about them a lot more. You know, what do you attribute this success to. Why do you think the, if England and Wales conferences are successful, have become successful, hopefully continue to be successful? There's probably a few things.
One is it's easier to do this if you've got a single common language and a big pool you can draw on. So that's easy. There's been a series of leaders in IAF, England and Wales since way before my time, who have started to foster this idea of the conference.
It's only one of the things IAF does, does the podcast and meetups, and this kind of thing being something that the local chapter in the country sees not as a gathering just for the members. It's not a club meeting. It's part of the expression of the IAF aim of promoting the power of facilitation and promoting professional development for facilitators.
And so it's become very intentionally IAF England and Wales, and friends, and the friends are as important as the members in this, in terms of their contribution to the event. So it's a community, it's based around the IAF England and Wales chapter, but it's got a large open tent at the sides. The comparison I did, someone said a little, it's like going to a music festival.
Go to Glastonbury, there's the people who are in the tent. If you go to the big tents of Glastonbury, there's always another 4000 people just around the tent, and they're enjoying the concert and taking part in it as well. And they're just as much a part of it, even though theyre not, or not yet perhaps members in that sense.
But weve got people deeply involved in the conference programme who are not IAF members, but theyre deeply committed to the if England and Wales and friends community. And thats been an intentional principle, at least back to 2017, 1819, somewhere around there. And so its done from an attitude of generosity and giving, you know, as the eye of England and Wales, not as a, a club, and you must be a member.
And all this kind of thing, which we love people becoming members, we love people using the professional development in IAF. I do it all, but it's a possession then to give, not to hold it all tight. So makes it a little bit messier, a little bit untidy, and I think all the better for it.
But if we avoided all the messiness and untidiness, we'd never do anything. We'd have an association that was, you know, constantly trying to work out where its next ten members came from. And I think that always.
It does feel like that's always been. Ever since I've been part of IAF, certainly the England and Wales chapter, there's always been quite an inclusive way of doing things. So all the meetups, you know, invite other people, you know, it's never been an only member's sort of way of doing things.
And I think it's really nice because also, facilitation is huge, isn't it? It's got, as you say, where's the tent stop? That concept reflects the nature of the job we do in facilitation as well. And, you know, some of those people, if you think of it like an onion, people come in, some people come into the edge of it and come to a conference and they go away. We never see them again, or they come to a meetup.
And some people get much closer in. Some people are very embedded in the if England and Wales and friends community, and some of those people become members. We also get people who become members of IAF and come to the community through that door.
And one thing I always say to people about membership is come to receive and to learn, but come to give. If you look at the IAF competencies and principles, quite a few, quite a bit of it is about what you're giving to the profession of facilitation and encouraging other people, particularly, obviously, as you go on and perhaps gain more experience. And you never have a bigger shovel, as they say, when you start giving to a thing like this, you always get back more than you shuffled in.
Definitely. No, it sounds really exciting. I'm really looking forward to coming, and I'm really looking forward to meeting some people I know and chatting about stuff that, you know, we know about.
And also, I think, more importantly, meeting people that I don't know, hearing new stuff, hearing about new ways of doing things. I think it's great that there's, you know, there's four different tracks and four different options. I am going to struggle to decide what to put on my buffet plate because I always do.
But, yeah, really looking forward to it. Thank you so much, Paul, for talking to me today. Any last plugs? Anything else we need to know about the conference before, before we wrap up? I think the big question we're having at the moment in the conference group is, what on earth do we do if more than 120 people want to come next year, what would we do? But that's a problem.
For further down the line, the program is pretty much done. We're now getting into the stage of there's a list of small things that need to be done, like what do we need to print and all that kind of thing. But it's just been wonderful to see the people booking in and the variety of people.
It's one of my most enjoyable weekends of the year. Yay. I'm really excited.
Well, I look forward to seeing you there. Thank you so much. Thank you, Helen.
Good to talk to.
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In epsode Bogdan tells us about himself as a facilitator and trainer, what it means to be a playful facilitator and his journey into facilitation.
He tells Nikki and Helene about how IAF Romania and how it all began, from joining IAF in 2018 to getting intouch with other facilitatrors in Romania. With the start of the pandemic 2 years later and everyone had more time he found out what was needed to start a chapter, and started IAF Romania with Bogdan as the Chair.
Since 2020 the chaoter has grown to 27 members, with more facilitators wanting to be a part of the community. The growth has happened in terms of quality of events as well as numbers.
Facilitation is not well known in Romania and not well known in organisations.
Bogdan talks about engaging new people to the world of facilitation, organising events and enabling people to make connections and talks in more detail about some of the events they have hosted for example Open Space in HR.
They also have a group mentoring programme and how that works.
They have two types of approaches - one for the community and one for the IAF Romania members. Most events are co-facilitated so there is a lot of learning.
Some examples of the events are:
Training about having impact in online facilitation - Nelson from Portugal.
Pop up sharing around a particular topic.
Facilitators Studio - where someone can bring a new design to try out.
Facilitator Lab - helping two facilitators to create something together. An example of this is AI and facilitation.
The core members of 10/12 come up with the ideas for all the events and build the ideas together.
They plan to have their first in person event - a facilitation festival in the autumn.
Bogdan talks about collaborations with other IAF Chapters and explains how these have worked:
Twin Chapters with IAF Italy
Facilitation Lightening Talks, some of which were with IAF Ireland and IAF Italy
He talks extensively about the collaboration with IAF Japan and the 9 or 10 meetings that were needed to set this up and the cultural learning points.
Helene asks Bogdan to talk about his role in IAF Europe and Middle East as part of the share and learn team and the benefits of bringing together different cultures and facilitation experience.
Bogdan talks about what next for IAF Romania - elections, continued focus on mentoring, sending chapters from the Power of Facilitation book out in their newsletter which they have translated into Romanian.
Bogdan lastly talks about his hope for the future and the facilitation festival.
To contact Bogdan:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/bogdangrigore82/
IAF Romania:
https://www.iaf-world.org/site/chapters/romania
https://www.linkedin.com/company/iaf-romania-international-association-of-facilitators-romanian-chapter/?originalSubdomain=ro
The Power of Facilition:
https://facpower.org/2021/06/01/what-is-the-power-of-facilitation-and-why-is-it-important/
Lightening Talks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcOrr9Sj17U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tluzc03l4sM
Celebrating Diversity with IAF Japan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FctxQou8F9w
Find Helene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Find Nikki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/
Email: [email protected]
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In this episode Helene talks to Deborah Deborah Rim Moiso from SessionLab about their recent survey and report.
Deborah shares her experience as a freelance facilitator and discusses her mentoring program with IAF and her passion for facilitating multistakeholder projects on nature conservation, climate change, and youth training.
She talks about how in 2022, the first global survey of facilitators was conducted by Session Lab, gathering data on who facilitators are, where they are, and their age. It was initiated by Session Lab to address the lack of data on facilitators, despite reports existing for other professions like UX design.
This survey looks at Facilitation trends and insights from a global survey.
Facilitators were surveyed globally, with 1000 responses from diverse regions, including Japan.
The report was well-received, with new questions added to better understand learning pathways to facilitation, and feedback from contributors and experts.
Deborah talks about the role of expert commentators and how they condensed the data and provided insights, asking questions and challenging assumptions to open discussions and conversations.
Deborah describes some of the key findings from the report including Facilitation industry trends and AI adoption.
One standout reflection from the report is the generosity of the facilitation community in providing answers, despite the lengthy survey process.
Deborah discusses some of the other insights from the report including:
Online vs in-person sessions Facilitators delivering shorter sessions Representation, professionalisation and diversity The facilitation industry and accreditation programs The importance of including younger perspectives in the facilitation professionTo contact Deborah: email [email protected]
To read the 2024 State of Facilitation Report: https://www.sessionlab.com/state-of-facilitation/?utm_source=IAF-Podcast&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=sof
To help SessionLab promote the project: https://www.sessionlab.com/state-of-facilitation/promo-kit/
If you have any questions about the report or the data behind it, or want to contribute to the next edition, get in touch with us at [email protected].
Find Helene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/
Connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories
Email: [email protected]
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In this episode Helene talks to Jamie Colston - father, facilitator, poet and systemic constellations practitioner about his work using Systemic Constellations, both Family Constellations and in organisations.
He talks about how he got into the work in the first place, the training he has done and the practise he does and some of what he has coming up next.
He shares some examples of how he uses it and in terms of facilitation he suggests it is most akin to Open Space Technology.
You can find Jamie here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamiecolston/
Jamie Colston https://www.jamiecolston.com/
Centre for Systemic Constellations - https://www.thecsc.net/
The Whole Partnership - https://www.wholepartnership.com/
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Today weâre introducing a new quarterly feature âChapter Chatâ. As many listeners know, the England and Wales chapter is just one of the many IAF volunteer-led chapters globally, all working within 6 regions across 65 countries. While all chapters are united under the IAF vision and operate in accordance to the IAF Code of Ethics they are all run in a slightly different way, and reflect the context theyâre working within.
So alongside our episodes capturing individual facilitatorsâ stories, each quarter weâre going to chat to people leading other chapters, about how they see the status of facilitation where they are, and the history, priorities, current projects and aspirations for their chapter.
To kick us off, we have a special episode reflecting on a year of facilitation in the EME region, where Helene and Nikki talk to Tamara Zivadinovic Regional Director of the Europe and Middle East Region of the IAF.
Tamara talks about her own facilitation practise, how she got involved in IAF and her her journey to becoming Regional Director.
She explains to Helene and Nikki what are your main responsibilities are as regional Director and what has been happening in the Region over the last year.
She talks about celebrating the many IAF volunteers and about her proudest moments as Regional Director.
Tamara shares what is coming up in 2024, her hopes for the region and finishes up with an ask for the members of the region.
You can contact Tamara on: [email protected] or find her on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamara-zivadinovic-4975384/
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In this episode Helene talks to Christine Bell about a session they co-facilitated for Facilitation Week.
They share some of the groupâs thoughts on what authentic facilitation is as well as some of their own emerging questions on how to balance being authentic but remaining in control and whether authenticity can be learned or taught.
They also reflect on their first experience of planning and facilitating together and how liberating it was to deliver a session with no required outputs and without using some of the âusualâ facilitation tools.
A full transcript is below.
Links:
Contact Christine by email: [email protected]
Find Helene on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/
Connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories
Email: [email protected]
Nikki Wilson (NW)
Hello, and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. In today's episode, Helene Jewell speaks to Christine Bell.
Helene Jewell (HJ)
So in today's podcast, I am going to be chatting to Christine Bell, Director of Centre for facilitation. Welcome, Christine.
Christine Bell (CB)
Hi, Helene, nice to be with you again.
HJ
And it wasn't actually that long ago that I saw Christine, because we did a session together for Facilitation Week all about Authentic Facilitation. And that's what we're going to be talking about in today's podcast. But before I lead into asking Christine, lots of questions about that and doing a bit of reflecting, I just want to ask Christine to tell us a little bit about her facilitation practice. So what kind of work do you do, Christine.
CB
I mainly work with researchers and innovators and looking at different ways of doing things, different approaches, trying to get them to collaborate with each other and kind of break down some of the barriers and get to know each other so that they can start to find out interesting connections between different bits of research and then mash it together to come up with something new and interesting, that breaks through some of the challenges that we're facing, environmentally, socially, etc.
HJ
Right. Okay. And we have never actually worked together, but I think it's fair to say we know each other through the IAF, or through the larger facilitation community. Yeah, yeah, we've probably, we've probably met quite a few times on the different online forums. And then at the conference, I think the Conference this year was first time we actually met in person. And then and then we met in Bristol, because I was working in Bristol.
HJ
So yeah, so our paths have crossed a few times and then feed somehow, you have this great idea about doing a session in Facilitation Week, and you thought âAh yes Iâll ask Heleneâ
Well, first of all, let's start with Facilitation Week, what is Facilitation Week?
CB
Facilitation Week is a week of different activities designed for the facilitation community so that we can learn and develop from each other and explore different aspects of facilitation. And, and I was very conscious that my time is really quite limited, like, you know, with my time because of all the elderly care issues that are going on for me. So I give very little back to the community. So it felt like it would be quite a small thing for me to do and quite manageable to just offer to run a short session within Facilitation Week. So that was, that was the starting point. And then I learned because I also did that for the facilitation in person event in May. And I learned then because I got involved with another facilitator to run a session there, , actually, if you're going to do it, why not use it as a learning opportunity for myself to actually work with a peer that I don't usually work with, and just learn from that person kind of share best practice together, because then it's actually a developmental experience for me, and not just me doing a free bit of facilitation. And a free bit of, you know, I can facilitate and design facilitation all day long, and that's my job, but to actually to do it with a peer that I don't usually work with just makes that more, itâs more fun. And it's more developmental as well. So, yeah, so you came into my mind, because I thought, oh, yeah, I'd like to work with Helene. I think it would be fun.
HJ
It was so nice, it was like âyes, of courseâ, like, and I think it's true that Facilitation Week is that there's loads of different sessions, and they're hosted by loads of different people all over the world. So in a way, there's that opportunity to explore and connect, and it's fairly low risk. It's a really nice way to sort of get to know people.
And yes, I remember your session that was for the May conference, I think,and so I was quite quite pleased. I thought, well, this is a nice opportunity, because we've connected a bit online. We've been to those meetups and the conference together. And yeah, I thought, Well, this sounds like a good idea. And I know originally, you kind of thought about two different things. I can't remember.
CB
Yeah, I can't remember what the other one was. But you jumped on the authenticity and when, because I went âIâm vaguely thinking this authenticityâ. And I think that was because I just finished my last piece of work for the summer, which had been avert a hybrid conference, and someone had commented about my style and approach and how different and distinctive it was to other online facilitator that theyâd worked with. And I think I was reflecting on that and recognising actually, that is, one of my strengths is that I can be in the virtual environment, and I feel natural in that environment.
HJ
So yeah, I remember you sending an email and thinking about these two different options. And the authenticity stuff really jumped out at me, I think, partly because a lot of the time when we talk about doing sessions, for you know, things like Facilitation Week, I think it's really easy to jump to sort of tools and techniques and sharing that kind of stuff. But I was really intrigued by this, because I thought it's something quite different. But also, I wasn't quite sure where it might go. And I'm quite, I'm always quite keen to try and explore things and see sort of what what could be. So I think when you suggested that, I thought, âGreat, that's a good starting point. Let's, let's jump in there and and have a little go and see where it goesâ. And it's probably fair to say that that was, that was the way our planning worked a little bit.
CB
Yeah, it was, I think it was, it was a little chaotic. And then I think I had, I had a quiet period, it was just before the beginning of August. And so I started, I intellectualised about it, which is how I often go. So I did some research. And I started like pulling out all this stuff on authenticity. And it wasn't really, it kind of just made it feel quite sterile. And I thought that's not really it. That's not what I'm talking about here. Then my kind of as happens in the whole of this year, my mum went into hospital again. So I was back into a crisis period. So I didn't have much time to think about it. And so then when you got back from your holiday, we were kind of scrambling around going âright, what is it we're trying to do?â And that's when I came up with the title.
HJ
It was, âAm I? Can I? Should I?, which I think actually intrigued people in itself. So I think that was great that it was such a sort of organic. That's nice. Yeah, but it just Yeah, did it just appear? Or did you spend a long time thinking?
CB
No, no, I think it just I went for a bit of a walk. And I just, and it kind of came to me. And it was because this, the way of these things is you often have to come up with your title for the marketing before you've really thought what the session is going to be about. So I didn't want to kind of make it too prescriptive that we would then have to fit into. And I think as I was thinking about it was those dialogues, those kinds of things about what am I actually authentic? You know, is that what I'm coming across here? When people say to me about how I come across as a facilitator and how relaxed they feel with me, is that about authenticity? And then the kind of what is it I do to become authentic? So that's the kind of learning piece? And is it something that you intuitively do? Or is it something that you can actually learn to do? And then the âshouldâ bit was because I think mainly because I was going through that crisis with my mum, as you know, and, you know, there are times when I've had to just put the face on. And you know, internally, I'm crying. And actually, I've got to kind of be out there being positive and engaged Whilst this is going on in the background. And I'm worrying about it. And so, you know, in some ways, is that true authenticity, if we're having to put a bit of a mask over to our feelings? But actually, should I really be truly authentic with a big group do 60 people need to know all my emote stuff that's going on? They just like me to get on with my job and facilitate.
H
Yeah, and it's so intersting, because I know, when we were talking about, you know, what do we what is this session gonna be like, what do we need to put in there, we did have a lot of conversations about that kind of stuff. And I know for from my side, it has been suggested by a couple of people that, you know, like you perhaps I'm quite, I don't know, quite energetic, perhaps quite personable in my facilitation style, quite, maybe quite relaxed, but that sometimes I need to maybe dial down my energetic-ness, that kind of outward enthusiasm for a session, let's say, because that doesn't fit with the session, because the tone of the session needs to be different. And so for me, that was one of the questions that I know, I brought into our discussions about, well, when is it good to dial up or dial down your natural self? And when do we need to be a certain way? Um, so yeah, thinking about your example there, you know, you've got stuff going on. That's actually, you know, it's really affecting the way you do things and to have to put on that that face. How does that feel and how does that work? And I think we ended up having these really fascinating conversations between ourselves before we actually even got into the session.
And I almost think that it's the kind of conversation that's almost quite hard to put into a session, because it is very organic in a way that it can go, there's so many different elements to it, it can kind of go left or right or all over the place. You know, there's lots of different bits. And so, in a way, I think the way that we we did the session, it was quite open, and we sort of went with the flow, it felt quite right.
CB
And some of that was kind of by default, wasn't it? Because originally, I was saying, âI could use this new, you know, I'm learning over the summer, I want to learn how to use this new tool. And maybe we could use thatâ and, and then because all of this stuff happened with my mum, I didn't have the headspace to deal with that. And actually, then we started talking about it, you and I, and we had so many conversations planning it we would just go off into kind of like, oh, this is a really, I knew then that the session was going to work because we just the pair of us could sustain an hour's conversation on authenticity, really, really easily. And so I think that's at that point, we went, why are we worrying about capturing this, we don't need any output. This is facilitation, we, it's a group of random strangers, we don't have to make any decisions, we don't have to come to any conclusions. We don't have to produce a bit of output for a client and so all the stuff that we usually do, we just stripped it right back, because we realised that we had a joyous time just talking about this. And so we worked on the assumption that our participants would come to this as facilitators, and would engage with it. And by stripping away all of the usual periphery stuff, we just made it feel quite natural, and therefore authentic.
And that's kind of a couple of them said something in their feedback about how we had made it right from the beginning, a really relaxed session so they could bring their authentic selves. And the conversations very quickly got to a quite a deep, authentic level with random strangers. And they were all going crazy at the end sending each other, you know, putting in the chat or the chat, I was going through the chat. And it's like, yeah, this is my email. This is my, who cares about data protection, here's my email, contact me, here's my LinkedIn details. And in a way, yeah, that that's not always usual in an online session.
HJ
Yeah. And I think it's at that point about, they're not needing to be a particular output, I think is really important. But I think the other thing about working with somebody you haven't commonly worked with, there's that trust building, I guess, relationship building piece. And I feel like we inadvertently did a lot of that behind the scenes, which meant that perhaps, as a co facilitation team, that it worked really well on the day and that we were able to, to hold those conversations without having to worry too much about some of the logistics and all that kind of stuff, which I think sometimes you can worry about, I think it felt like we didn't have to worry too much. It felt like we had quite a strong team, I suppose.
CB
Yeah. structure as well didn't we so I mean it was like, you know, I'm gonna do this bit, you're gonna do this bit, you're gonna organise the breakout groups in the background, and you're doing that bit and I was doing the breakout rooms. And it's like, so we kind of made sure that we knew we didn't, it didn't feel like we crossed, we kind of crossed over each other. It felt like we were holding this together.
HJ
Yeah. So I don't, of course, don't want to give anybody the idea that we we didn't plan the session. I promise. We did we used session lab. We did have a nice plan. I think it was more about the way that we put that together. But going back to the session then and how many people did we actually have because one of the things that I was really pleased about and not surprised necessarily but but really pleased that it was actually quite a global audience was an audience, a global load of participants. But how many?
CB
think we had about 14 in the end. So we restricted registration, because that was partly me just feeling like âI can't I've got too much going onâ and the complexity of having a really big group when you want to have a plenary discussion, because we decided we wouldn't do everything as a feedback thing. We would have a lot of stuff in the groups and then our last session would be a plenary. And to have a really massive plenary, just I felt would have been more difficult for people to be themselves and to share stuff, so we had a much smaller group, so I limited the Zoom registration to I think 30, something like that. And yeah, and then we had about an you know, the usual attrition of people not turning up and someone turned up, I think 12 hours later, you know, the usual thing you someone didn't read the time zones. But we yeah, we did., we had people from Europe. And so we have someone from Greece, someone from Austria, and then we had a really nice clutch of people from India,
HJ
It was really nice to see that truly sort of lots of people that, that I'd never seen before I didn't have a particular connection were very new to me. And a few sort of faces that I know as well. But it was a really nice group of people. And so reflecting back then, on what we actually did, I remember one of the things that you suggested we do right at the start of the session was to put people in trios, I think, and send them straight into breakout rooms. And that felt like people were able to have these conversations straight straight away before we launched into the session. So I really enjoyed that. And then we came back. And what did we do after that? I'm trying to remember what our first bit was.
CB
I think we started very much about what is authenticity? What does it mean? What does authenticity mean? So we kind of almost used that structure. So we started off with the kind of me Yeah, am I authentic? And so what do I do that shows that authenticity? And what does that mean to me? And then we moved on more about into the can I be more authentic? So what can I consciously do? Because I think you talked about that. And particularly, what can I consciously do I remember, we were talking about the headsets. And like, you know, the first time you have to wear, well, the first time I had to wear a headset, because I had a very large group that I was facilitating, and the acoustics were bad. So I did that âI don't need a headset, I can and it's like, no, you can't be heard. It's not fair. And people who've got hearing difficulties that you kind of do this, it's not great for your voice. So just put the headset on and get on with itâ. And I spent the whole session feeling a bit like Madonna or Kylie or a pop star with this kind of thing. It was one of those ones that had the kind of headphones thing. And it felt like I kept referring to it. And it got in the way of me being authentic. And we were just talking about yo know, how do you consciously manage in those situations where you're there is some kind of restraint or you're feeling you're not in your normal comfort zone, you've had to move out of that for some reason? And how do you consciously bring yourself back to that authentic self? So that was that was a really interesting conversation? Well, we think they were didn't we, Helen, because we didn't actually join, though, consciously decided to send people off into breakout groups, and not do that kind of, I'm going to be really nosy and drop into the breakout groups, because we felt that was going to affect the authenticity of the breakouts. And it serves no real purpose.
HJ
Yeah. Really interesting having that conversation in our planning about, you know, the benefit of that and how or the risk or how that might work. And I know the feedback at the end suggested that people really appreciated having that time in breakout. So it was, the time was about them having those good conversations, rather than there being too much weight on having to share it or they're having to be an output particularly it was about them having those good conversations. And it really felt like that went down well, but yeah, we weren't, we weren't able to go in or we could have done but we decided not to go into the breakout groups and be nosy. But then we did do some plenary at the end, didn't we?
CB
Yeah, that's right. Because we realised in our plan, like we looked at the session law, I remember looking at the session level going and we do that there's just not enough. It's like actually, we need more time to have a plenary with a whole group at the end. And so we just shifted things, we didn't have mini plenary and then big plenary, we just went bang straight from breakout groups into a large plenary, which wasn't that large because the size of the group. And I think that was really good because we had a good 20 minutes or so for the final plenary, though that was when we really got a sense of the growth that had gone on in the conversations and that's when we heard conversations that have gone on.
HJ
And I was trying to remember what those conversations were what were some of the key highlights because I know you did a survey at the end as well so we asked people to to say what their highlights were and what they got from the session but what do you recall as being the key things that people said back from their conversations?
CB
I've got a few things that were written in the because we used the chat quite a lot we encourage people to put stuff in the chat so I've got things likeâBeing authentic means letting your guard down or showing more about what's going on inside your head and gut and this can help others know it's okay to be vulnerable, doubtful, not know they're there with you not being this polished person, but someone who's real. And someone else has put something about authenticity means âbeing on yourself natural and focused, yet actually being in controlâ. So there was, I think we're all aware that there was that kind of, you can't be completely natural like âActually Iâm feeling really tired today, so let's just sack this off and go make a cup of tea, because you've got a job to do. So you're focused on the actual task, but it's about being as natural and relaxed as you can. And then there was a lovely quote from one of our participants from India of âauthenticity is about, you've got the head stuff going on, which is your process. You've got your heart stuff going on, which is your being there and feeling for the group and wanting to the group to succeed. And then he was sharing about the hands Yeah, yeah. And it's like, and we all kind of went, Yeah, that's kind of it. Because in the virtual situation, like we're both on screen, in a way that isn't just our heads, we've consciously adapted our virtual environment. So it shows my hands are part of my facilitation, virtually, they add movement, and direction and things and, and when you're in the physical space, you're using your body in that way, as well. So it's, you're not this stiff person who's you know, those kind of guidance about how to present where they say, you should always hold your hands behind your back or in front of your body? And it's like, no, that's not gonna happen.
HJ
And I really, I think that phrasing of how, you know, using our hands together with mind and hearts, or how I can't quite remember how he phrased it, but it when he said it, it really landed with people, I think he really kind of hit the nail on the head, and that idea, that you whatever's going on in your head, whatever you're thinking, and that feeling that and then the how you present yourself, I guess, how you you move around, and what your body does, and all that kind of stuff, that those three things happen together to be that authentic you and I, it really struck a chord, I think with with us and with most of the people there and found that really, really insightful. And it also made me think about it was something that somebody else said on the back of that think about, about us understanding what as facilitators, or as people, in fact, make us fearful or excited or pleased or worried or what, what situations we find ourselves in that make us feel like that, and about how we react? And then so how do we react to fear? How do we react to stress? And what do we do about it, then how do we change the way we are in those different situations? And I think that sort of led to this whole different train of thought, for me anyway, away from this just thinking about how I present as a person based on who I am. But actually, all those different situations. Yeah, lots of lots of different stuff to sort of think about.
CB
And then we got into that very useful conversation about the, you know, other times when I cannot or should not be truly authentic. And we had a couple of comments about, you know, or maybe there's occasions that so one of the quotes here is there's occasions when being authentic, might not be helpful, for example, when working in different or across cultural contexts. And someone was saying, Yeah, I find that that's very true. When I'm facilitating workshops with government officials and the disadvantaged communities. And so there's kind of like that realisation that there is that moderation sometimes that you have to do have the authentic part of you.
HJ
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it's so interesting that that piece about like, how do we actively or how much should we actively change who we are and what we do for the needs of it needs, the participants needs the client needs of the situation we're in and thinking about that alongside the, yeah, who we naturally are and how we respond. And anyway, there's just lots of lots and lots of really lovely stuff to think about think. OK so then thinking about what we learned, what were your sort of key learning points.
CB
I think, in terms of process that keep it simple thing, it was really important, the fact that we just, we had an hour and a half, we didn't use any tools, we didn't use Jamboard, we didnât use a whiteboard, we didn't use mural, we didn't use Menti. We didn't use any of the tools that we might usually use. We just used conversation and the chat and that was it and, and it worked.
It was quite liberating, I think, to have just that and that for this particular workshop, because we didn't need to bring it to a conclusion or produce output. It was enough just to say, we've had the conversation. That's it.
And I think sometimes I'm probably as guilty as anyone else of overcomplex, you know, making things more complex because you think the client is paying for you, but sometimes maybe simple is exactly what's needed. So I think that was yeah, that was a really good learning insight for me about the process. What about for you Helene?
HJ
I really like you're putting people into breakout groups straightaway, actually, because I think it's something I haven't done before. I always start with a hello, welcome, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But actually, I think it's because it feels a bit of a risk. But actually, I think it's a really nice thing to do. So I really love that in terms of the process. And similarly, having a giving people a lot of space. And I think it feels like a bit of a luxury because as facilitators, as you say, normally you have to come out there's an output isn't there, there's a requirement to get to a certain point. And I think that, yeah, luxury of time to just explore and chat around a few simple questions. I think I really enjoyed that as well. Yeah. And also your, your survey, you did a survey at the end. And I thought you were going to you had a zoom poll. And it was a whole new learning thing for me that there was Zoom, zoom survey. So despite the fact we weren't actually doing a session, which was about learning tools, I learned a couple of things anyway, what about the authenticity, then what did you learn was there any learning for you around authenticity, or anything that you think you might take away, do differently?
CB
I don't think it is doing anything differently, I think, continuing to be conscious about it. And I think as someone who is very senior, as the facilitator, I've got the responsibility to bring on newer facilitators, younger facilitators, less experienced facilitators. So I think for me, it's just trying to figure out, I know that I come across authentically, and the feedback from this workshop confirmed that, and the workshop that I was running in July also kind of highlighted actually, this is a distinctive thing that I do compared to other people's experiences of facilitators, but I'm not quite sure how I do it. So actually spending a bit of time just thinking about that as the skill set and thinking, Well, how do I get other facilitators that are working with me, who bring this trait in When it's something I can't I don't quite know how I do it?
And I think some of it's just the experience, I think some of it is the way I started on my facilitation when I was quite Junior in an organisation and I was having to kind of find a way of expressing my power as a facilitator, but without that status and power that I had, because of age, that I came at it in quite a relaxed way. And so how do I communicate that with to others? How do I teach others to be that authentic self in themselves? And I think so yeah, that's, I don't think I've come away going, right. And that's how I'm going to do it. But it's given me time and space, especially talking to you in the preparation. And during the actual session itself. It's just given me time and space to kind of think about, yeah, this is this is a trait. And it's actually probably one of the most important traits, that seems because if if participants feel we're being authentic, they trust in the process, they trust in us, they buy into it, they engage. And so the rest of it becomes a lot easier.
HJ
Yeah. And I think it's really so I think a couple of things that stood out for me, just then, as you were talking, there's the seniority thing I think, the more you are used to facilitating and the more you have practised and you feel comfortable, I guess in knowing what you're doing, perhaps the less you are worried about how you are as well, you can think your focus is is very different. When you haven't done a lot of facilitation, there's so much to worry about. Whereas I think the more experienced you are perhaps you don't have to worry so much about whether you've got I don't know pink, post it or blue post it so you know all that stuff that when you first start out, you spend a lot of time really and really stressing about some things, I think and so perhaps that then gives you the space to be more authentic because you're not worrying about things that actually you know, they're quite important but but the later as you carry on in your career, I think they'd become less important perhaps and that Yeah, the other
The thing was this idea of can you teach authenticity? And I think something you said earlier about teaching people to walk or put your hands in a certain way and that kind of thing. I always find that way of talking about being, as a facilitator, quite, quite interesting, because actually, I'm not sure you can you can't, you know, one size doesn't fit all. You shouldn't, or put your hands in a certain way, because that means this or sit down stand up. I think it's all very dependent on the situation, isn't it? So? Think that's quite a question. Can you teach somebody to be more authentic? I'm sure there are people that do I'm sure you can. But how you go about that I thinkâs really fascinating.
And yeah, I think that you started off saying that you had you had perhaps come to this from a slightly more academic point of view. And it has made me think a bit, there's just loads and loads of literature out there to really explore this stuff. Because there is like a thread, isn't it? You pull up a thread, and you realise there's more and more and more, and the more we have these conversations, the more you realise there's so much depth to it. So such an interesting topic.
CB
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think that's what I came away with is like, actually, it's a fascinating subject. And let's have more conversations about it. Because it was, you know, really enjoyable to have a conversation on I think everyone who came, kind of, the feedback was just like, if this was really interesting, and really enjoyed these conversations. Yeah, hope we continue these conversations, it was really useful talking to the others. I learned a lot. You know, these are just all the things that people were just saying it's like, and someone said, I'd love to hear other facilitators, stories about these edgy situations, you know, the edge of when the authenticity is under attack, or when it when you feel you're having to make a shift in yourself to dial it down, like you said, or in my situation to mask some of the emotional turmoil that's going on? And it's like, where are those edgy stories will be quite fascinating about, yeah, facilitators on the edge of, of authenticity, and things like that.
HJ
That sounds like a great blog, Christine, challenge for you.
CB
I think one last thought that's popped into my head actually is the sort of cultural dimension of it, by which I mean, you know that how authenticity differs depending on where you're from, and I don't know what language you speak and your culture. So that that's an element that I think I'd love to explore further as well. So but you can only do so much in an hour and a half., so next time, authenticity part two.
Brilliant. Thank you so much, Christine, for joining me today. It's been really great to reflect on the session and to relive some of the you know, how we put it together the conversations that happened in the session and to think about kind of what next as well. How do we reach you if we want to get hold of you?
CB
You simply contact [email protected]
HJ
Fantastic, thanks and see you soon.
CB
Bye.
PO
And that's the end of today's episode of facilitation stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on whatever podcast app you use. And if you would like to contribute to the show, you can get in touch via email [email protected] Or you can get all the other links from our website facilitationstories.com.
There this has been Facilitation Stories brought to you by IAF England and Wales.
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In this episode Nikki talks to Rosie Carnall about Philosophical Inquiry. Itâs a way of engaging in a conversation explorating into philosophical questions.
Rosie has used Philosophical Inquiry in a range of situations, from Art Galleries, to pubs, to workplaces.
Nikki and Rosie talk about how to choose stimuli for discussions and learning from a specific example of when Rosie ran the same session back to back, online and in person for a hybrid team.
The full transcript is below.
Links:
Rosieâs website: www.rosiecarnall.co.uk
Nikki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Listen to our podcasts: https://www.facilitationstories.com/
Connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories
Email: [email protected]
NW
Hello and welcome to facilitation stories brought to you by the England and Wales Chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson and my guest today is Rosie Carnall. So welcome, Rosie. So to start off with, could you tell the listeners a little more about you and what you do?
RC
Thanks, Nikki. So my name is Rosie Carnall, and I'm a Freelance Creative Facilitator. My backgroundâs in mediation and conflict resolution and from that, I learned quite a lot about facilitation and developed that as an interest, and I've also worked in things like Project management. And then, more recently, in my work, I've been able to focus more on facilitation, and in particular, using both creative methods of facilitation to get people thinking and talking, but also facilitating creative sessions. So I typically work with creative writing and the creative field but I'm also really interested in art -based work. So quite a broad range of interests, but at the core of it all, is facilitating interesting and engaged conversations.
NW
Fantastic. And we're going to dig in a little bit more about that, in this episode. So you and I met at the IMF conference, and I discovered that you include philosophy for communities in your practice. So I had a really positive experience as a participant in the past, and I was really keen to, to find out a bit more about how you use it. So for listeners that aren't familiar with P4C, could you tell us a bit more about it?
RC
Yeah, that's great that you had a positive experience. I'd love to hear more about that another time. So Philosophy for Communities is a method of holding a Philosophical Inquiry. And Philosophical Inquiry is kind of what it sounds like, it's a way of engaging in a conversation that takes forward questioning and exploration into philosophical questions. And philosophical questions are all around us in life. And P4C, Philosophy for Communities is a way of, it's a method to enable people who aren't academic philosophers who don't wouldn't consider themselves to be philosophical necessarily, to discover big questions, and discuss them together.
NW
Okay. And so, when did you first encounter P4C and what appealed to you about it?
RC
The first ever time I encountered P4C was when my son took part in it in a P4C inquiry as part of a youth group. And I was just a parent on the edge kind of thing. I wasn't participating. And they, they had in any P4C inquiry, you would have a stimulus, so that's the starting point for whatever the discussion is going to be. But the stimulus always has quite a lot of different ways to go. And the stimulus on this occasion was a children's story, Michael Morpurgo story. And it was the one about the Christmas Truce, the story where in the First World War, there was a truce called on Christmas Day, and the English and German soldiers played football together. And then the young people, including my son, read the story. And then they asked questions, and then they discuss the questions they came up with. And then they went on to create a Christmas play, to put on arising from their discussion.
And the thing that really struck me was how they engaged in such depth with what the story meant. So when they put on the play, they weren't rehearsing lines, they were conveying meaning. And it just felt such a rich form of learning that I thought, well, I really need to find out more about this.
So and that, that brings up the the idea that P4C also stands for Philosophy for Children, and it's used in a lot of schools in Britain. It's an international movement. It's a way of teaching thinking skills and critical thinking. And it's also a way of engaging children in kind of social learning, and how to disagree agreeably. And Philosophy for Communities is the exact same thing. It's just with adults in community rather than children.
NW
Yeah, excellent. I mean, I, as I said, I encountered it as an adult first of all, but hearing that it had been, you know, the stem of it was from, from kind of school based learning, I just thought I wish that we'd done this at school, it would have been so valuable, I think to, to kind of build those skills, as you said that that whole idea of being able to discuss and sit alongside other people and kind of draw out that meaning. And so how did you I mean, obviously, you you learned about it as an observer, how did you first come to try facilitating it in practice?
RC
Well, Ijust, I was already doing facilitation. And I was interested in using it at that time, I was working as manager of a team and a national organisation and I started trying using a bit in that kind of team context. And I also used it in community, I'm a Quaker, as it happens, and so at our Quaker meeting, we offered a couple of P4C inquiries, and I was lucky that I had a friend who's very skilled and knowledgeable about P4C, and the thing that happens straight away, in that classic learning journey is that soon as you start trying to actually do something, you learn so much more about what you don't know about doing it, You know, it looks so easy, âWell, I'm going to give that a goâ, and really quickly I was like I need to do some training in this if I want to get really good at this, or even, you know, even as a starting point. I began to understand and for example, in facilitating a group to come up with questions, I just needed to do a much more deep dive into like, âWhat is a question? And how do we get to good questions?â So I did some training with an organisation locally, who, who mainly trained teachers in Philosophy for Children, but I came along and said, âWell, I actually donât work in a school I'm going to, I'm going to use it with adults, mainly. So that was how I did the training.
NW
Excellent. And so since then, obviously, you trialled it in practice, and then kind of did this bit of training. But where have you used it since then? Are there any contexts where you feel it particularly works well?
RC
Yeah, so I've used it, I've used it a lot with Quakers, for interest and for kind of, not teaching so much as learning. So getting a group together and inquiring into a shared question, it means that people are sharing their knowledge and their ideas and their thinking, and that fits really well in that context. So that kind of community learning together. And I've used it in pubs. So I set up and run a Philosophy in Pubs group in Sheffield, that's been going, coming up for five years, in fact, and that's just an open access group, anyone who's interested can come along, and each month, itâs a monthly group, and I bring a different stimulus, and we'll see where that goes. And during the pandemic, I moved that online. so I've used it online as well as in real life, so to speak.
And I've used it as part of a more creative focus or cultural focus, as part of the Sheffield Year of Reading, which was a whole year the library set up, of getting people into reading and thinking. And for that we used different excerpts from books or a poem.
I've used it as, I do creative writing, and Creative Writing facilitation. So I use it as a way into creative writing, but also as a way of people engaging with each other's writing to critique. So something I call creative critique. So we use people's passages of writing as the stimulus for the inquiry, and it means they get a sense of whether what they're writing is actually landing with the listener.
And I now also offer P4C sessions in a local art gallery and a few art galleries and I call that âPhilosophy in the Galleryâ, and so then in that case, it's again, it's an open access session where people would come and we look at an artwork together, and then evolve our thinking arising from looking at the art, so not so much a focus on learning about art, art history, or even the kind of painterly strokes, but what does it mean to us? So always it's about what does it mean to us? And then I've also done some work with organisations. So then right back to the beginning, in a way of working with a team and using it as a way of bringing a team or colleagues together to think about questions and issues together.
NW
So kind of building on that, where do you look for the stimuli that you would use in these sessions?,
RC
Ah that's an interesting question. I look for them everywhere. So in the Art Gallery, my job is easy, because I go into the Art Gallery, and then I can have a look and choose one. For the sessions in the pub, I try and have a really varied range. So, in fact, I did a session on Tuesday this week and our stimulus was an excerpt from a book called Bright New World, which is about climate change, and what we know about how to manage and mitigate climate change. It's a very positive book. And there was a section about trave and I just thought, âOh, that's interesting. It's got lots of different thinking in itâ. and then the group came up with their question they wanted to ask. And I use poems, I use short videos, I used a Hey Duggee episode, which is a children's cartoon, and they had I use it there is in fact, I Hey Duggee on philosophy, but I use the one on collecting, and so thinking about what does it mean that humans collect things. And I might also use something from a philosophy book, but I'm not an academic philosopher. So I don't tend to get you know, I'm interested in people's own philosophising, rather than, you know, I'm not bringing that into the room, we're finding out where that comes from. And with the teams or an organisation or community group who have a particular theme they want to explore, then I will be thinking about âhow can I, what can I find that would open up questions on that theme without being didactic?â So it definitely needs to be something that's open ended and isn't arriving with a moral opinion into the room. Although, if there is you know, maybe it's hard to get totally away from morality, but people need to have the sense that they can disagree as well as agree.
NW
Yeah. And that there's presumably that there's sufficient scope within that stimulus to go in lots of different directions and kind of take it their own way.
RC
Yes, exactly. And that is a very common experience. And, you know, in fact, what's quite common, is that I think âOh, that's really interestingâ. And whatever it is, that's interested me, in the passage I choose, or the artwork I choose, it turns out, you know, no one else finds that interesting, you know, that people will come up with these really different questions, and not what I was expecting at all. And that's one of the glorious things about the process.
NW
But I suppose with that in mind, though, are there situations where you'd hesitate to use this kind of technique?
RC
I think it's a tricky question, isn't it? Because in one way, I want to say âno, it can be used everywhere. You know, it's such a rich possibility. And it's so openâ, and with my background, in mediation and conflict resolution, you know, it's one of the reasons why I got interested in Philosophy for Communities. But I think, as a mediator, I became a bit frustrated with the idea that people thought, âoh, you know, we need a mediatorâ. And they typically thought that a lot further on into a conflict, when they may be, you know, if you're going to have a mediator get one early, but also that there's, there's a desire within the idea of having a mediator for a solution and an answer and someone an expert to come in. And so what I'm really interested in as well, maybe if we could all talk to each other more and disagree agreeably, and be able to accept that someone has a different opinion than us, and that's okay, it's just interesting rather than threatening, then that might, it's kind of the groundwork of conflict resolution in a way.
So it's almost like the antithesis of social media where people get into these terrible conflicts because they're, they're just getting reactive and up against each other, where P4C or Philosophical Inquiry is about staying alongside each other without having to agree. And so perhaps that means that I'm a little bit more willing to take risks. Because I think, I think a lot of people are really alarmed by the idea of conflict or alarmed by the idea that people you know, people might get upset. I don't want to upset anyone, but neither do I want to quash emotion, because emotion is part of our human experience. And emotion is part of how we know what we think about something. You know, that's a really clear route, if you hear some information, and it invokes a strong emotional response in you, then, you know, that's telling you something about what you think about that information. For me, that's part of the rich potential for Philosophical Inquiry.
That said, in terms of my responsibility, as a facilitator, I would always want to be sure that I could create a safe space, or a brave space or an appropriate space for sharing within any community. So I would want to do a dynamic risk assessment of you know, you know, what's appropriate, and thinking back, I suppose, partly to my mediation, training or thinking about power imbalance. And if, if power imbalance can't be managed within the group, then it's not going to have the ethos that I would want. So I would be looking to manage that process but so far, no one's asked me to do a Philosophical Inquiry in a situation where I've said, âNo, that's not going to workâ.
And in fact, family Christmas a couple of years ago, we were just sitting talking, and then we kind of got into a question and really, I was facilitating an inquiry, you know, it was just an area of interest for the five of us, you know, that's possibly quite a bold move, to introduce it completely socially. I mean, there wasn't such a structured thing there.
And I always say that in in terms of this practice, that I feel like I've really developed my own thinking, you know, we talk about teaching children thinking skills, but I definitely feel that my own thinking has improved, and that it's doing P4C has made me better at arguing with my husband. I don't know whether he appreciates that or not, but I feel very strongly that, you know, it's I'm, I'm able to think more clearly and to understand more about how I'm feeling and you know, what is the actual question I want to discuss?
NW
Right and so, with all of those different directions that you've taken it, including into the domestic environment, this might be a difficult question to ask, but where would you like to go next with it?
RC
And well, I'm really excited about my work with Art Galleries and Museums, and opening those spaces out to more people. And particularly with Art Galleries, I have this strong aspect to my practice, where it's really important to me that you don't need to know anything about art to experience art, and so the Philosophical Inquiry, I think, can really help. I know, it does help people to, to open that up to like, âOh, my ideas and thoughts are the same and different as other people's, and that that's an equal process. And we're just going to look at the art, and then respond to it.â So that's a really exciting area of interest for me. And in getting people, it can be quite social in that way, in that way, can help with reducing loneliness and isolation. As a social, I always say, âDo you like meeting new people, but you don't really do small talk? You know, P4C is for youâ.
So I'm interested in that community based work, and particularly with Art Galleries and Museums, and I'm also really interested in the workplace, and teams and colleagues, and bringing people together to think together about what underpins their work. So I think often in the workplace, you can be so focused on action, and practical steps and getting things done, that it can be really helpful to take that step back and think about, well, âwhy am I doing this? What you know, what is it that brings us together? What are our shared interests and concerns and opening up those bigger questions about the ethos and value of the area of work?â And thinking that through in the background, I think that's very interesting how that works.
NW
Okay. So I mean, obviously, quite different contexts there, I suppose showing that kind of breadth of where P4C can apply and equally have value, and so I suppose thinking or drawing that right back to a very specific example, when we had our initial call about this podcast, you were just about to run the same P4C inquiry twice with a morning online and an afternoon in person. So I'm kind of curious as to how that went.
RC
Yeah, that was a great day it was, was for a national organisation who are now of course, much more dispersed than they were before. So that change into a lot of people working from home and coming back to the office, and how does that workplace community function in those ways. And so that was the reason why we had an online session, as well as an in person session, and using the same stimulus and the same session plan, but of course, getting different thinking.
So that, in fact, the stimulus or use that was a short film, about how trees communicate. So there's this thing the Wood Wide Web, that trees, you might see trees as individual trees, but in fact, they communicate through their roots and through the soil system, and they can create complex communication. So we had that as a stimulus on each occasion, and then looked at what the concepts were that were coming up, and how that related to the idea of a community of colleagues, and particularly colleagues who now don't necessarily see each other so often.
It was a great day, that some of what I noticed about it was the difference between online and in person. And in particular, I've got an interest in the fact that in online sessions, especially in a group, is quite difficult to laugh, and to have humour. Because just purely because of, if someone's speaking, someone else can't be speaking, you know, you get that kind of disjunct between and timelag, you know, whereas in the room, it's much more easy to have that kind of humour and laughter happening. Not that people online, didn't make jokes or enjoy, but there's something different in that in how that works.
And it was interesting as well, because when we were looking at what concepts people drew out, that's the kind of starting point they watch the stimulus together, and then think about what are the important concepts here., and there were a lot of commonalities between the morning and the afternoon, but there were differences as well.
And so then that led to different questions being asked, and a slightly different focus to the sessions, at the same time as having, you know, a lot of common interest as well.
NW
It sounds fascinating to have that that opportunity, really, to actually get that real close comparison of the two, the two sessions so close together. So thinking back then, what was your key learning that came out of that that session?
RC
I think what was was really interesting about having two sessions together, was in future, I would want to bring them back together more. So that it was able it's a very effective process for being able to pull out some learning that's de-personalised. So because you're taking this philosophical approach. And it's asking big questions about the nature of, of life and thinking and attitudes and values, then it does actually really effectively bring out ideas and thinking rather than comments and opinions.
And that felt really helpful to me that for in a work, colleagues situation. And often what you're wanting to find out is that thinking that's behind someone's opinion. So that was really useful and in the future, I would want to develop a clearer way to bring that back round together and to share it between the two groups. I was able to do it, but it was, you know, as you learn that process, It's having some shared learning that's coming out of it together. And I suppose ideally, would be to, in some way, bring everyone together at the end.
NW
Okay, so lots of big thinking to take away then Rosie and no small challenge of kind of working out how to draw all those things together when people are so dispersed, as you said, I think that's, that can be quite a challenge when you know, some people are in the room, and some aren't as well on that whole hybrid way of working.
RC
Yeah. And I think as well, because of the, there's a stage and an inquiry process where groups come up with questions, and those questions often and then you choose one question to focus, a conversation, the kind of dialogue part of the inquiry. And often, you know, if you've got four or five, six questions, they can sometimes they're all really great questions, and in fact, what you really want to do is take them away and create a curriculum. So that there's something about that the questions that come up can be a really important part of what the learning is, and offering them back in to future team meetings or discussion groups or, you know, staff conference or an intranet piece, I think that there's something about the questions that come up can be, this can be really mind for a lot of interest.
NW
Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Rosie. It's been really interesting to hear a bit more about it as I said, I had this one idea of what it was going to be like from my perspective, but so many different avenues that you've taken it ,so I'm sure we could talkl all afternoon or evening about it. But then, thank you so much again.
And so if listeners are interested to find out more about you or to connect him with you house, what's the best way for them to do that?
RC
So I have a website, www.rosiecarnall.co.uk . That's probably the easiest way to get in touch with me or to find out a bit more.
NW
Excellent. Well, thank you, Rosie. It's been great to talk to you bye for now.
RC
Thank you very much. Thank you.
And that's the end of today's episode of Facilitation Stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on whatever podcast app you use. And if you would like to contribute to the show, you can get in touch via email [email protected] Or you can get all the other links from our website facilitationstories.com. This has been Facilitation Stories brought to you by IAF England and Wales.
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After over 100 episodes spanning 4 years, Pilar Orti is stepping down from her role as co-host on the Facilitation Stories podcast. In this special episode, Pilar joins regular co-hosts Helene Jewell and Nikki Wilson to reflect on her time on the show and what comes next.
How It All Began
The idea for Facilitation Stories emerged organically at an in-person meetup hosted by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators (IAF) back in 2019. Pilar had given a talk on using podcasting to build community and connection in remote teams. Afterwards, some attendees suggested starting a podcast for the chapter. Pilar agreed to help get it off the ground.
Along with Martin Gilbraith's support, Pilar worked with Helene and another co-host to produce the first 4 episodes and establish a regular cadence. After some early experimentation, they settled into releasing 1 episode per month. The organic, unstructured nature of those early days established the podcast's informal, conversational tone that continues today.
Why Listeners Connect
A big part of the podcast's appeal is its sense of community. As Pilar says, it feels like "listening to your friends." Most facilitation podcasts focus on tips, tutorials, and sales pitches. Facilitation Stories stands out for spotlighting members of the IAF England and Wales community sharing stories and learning from real life experiences.
The hosts' genuine enthusiasm, warmth, and enjoyment comes across in every episode. According to Pilar, her favorite episodes are the unscripted conversations between two or more co-hosts. The rapport and natural interactions make listeners feel like they're right there in the room.
Evolution of Facilitation During the Pandemic
Pilar, Helene, and Nikki reflected on how facilitation has changed over the past few years, accelerated by the pandemic. Virtual facilitation has become more ubiquitous and accepted. More organizations recognize the need for facilitators to help guide productive online meetings and events. Hybrid events also present new challenges facilitators must adapt to.
On a skills level, facilitators have had to expand their digital literacy and learn to facilitate exclusively through a screen. Soft skills like reading the virtual room, fostering connections, and keeping energy levels up become even more crucial.
Co-facilitation partnerships have also blossomed as the complexity and demand increases. Facilitators increasingly team up with those outside the profession who bring complementary expertise.
Key Takeaways
A few key themes emerge from Pilar's time on Facilitation Stories:
Start simple - When launching a new podcast, focus on consistent execution over production value. Get the first 10 episodes done to build momentum.
Rotate roles - Swap hosting and production duties between team members. It keeps things dynamic while building everyone's skills.
Personality matters - Let your authentic style and personality come through. This attracts the right listeners who connect with the content.
Find your niche - Targeting a specific community makes it easier to grow an engaged audience, as demonstrated by the show's IAF focus.
Value enjoyment - Do it because you find joy in the process and camaraderie. Passion shines through and makes it worthwhile.
What Comes Next
While sad to say goodbye to Facilitation Stories, Pilar is embarking on an exciting new chapter. She shared some of the creative pursuits and professional projects she'll be focusing on:
Developing an audio course on asynchronous communication
Exploring the comics medium and using visual storytelling
Continuing fiction writing and other literary projects
Building her podcasting expertise through new shows and helping others level up their podcasts
Authoring books on topics like co-hosting or using Trello for podcast production
After years of client work, training, and teaching, Pilar is ready to put more energy into generating original content and productions. She remains as passionate as ever about podcasting and plans to start new shows in addition to advising others.
When asked if she had any parting wisdom, Pilar expressed full confidence that Helene and Nikki will continue taking the podcast to new heights. She may no longer be there, but the strong community built on Facilitation Stories will carry on
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Welcome to Facilitation Stories, brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF.
In todayâs episode Pilar Orti talks about running circles (spaces for dialogue) with Jindi Mann, founder and facilitator of Leader Brother Son and coach and organizational consultant at The Selfish Leader.
Jindy recently ran the Men at Work survey as part of his work with Leader Brother Son, where he works with groups of men. The work has the potential of benefiting mental health and diversity. The Men at Work survey in particular, was a way for them to gather some insights into the male experience at work. In particular, it highlighed what men find hardest to talk about at work and what can help them show up more fully at work.
To explain the roots of his work, Jindy talks about his early life, growing up in a British Indian family, his two business degrees and masculine cultures in the business world. He came to realize that he had an opportunity to work with this, as he was seeing the same thing repeatedly: the idea of taking up this role of "man" without interrogating what that means. Alongside some other coaches, Jindy started offering free online groups two and a half years ago. Theyâll be starting their 10th group in early August.
There is a short application process for joining the groups. Intersted participants first make
an enquiry on the company's website, and this is followed by a short conversation to align expectations and understand the principles behind the sessions. There are typically, eight to twelve people in each group and at least two facilitators in each session.As the work comes from a personal space for Jindy, he often feels the tension between leading or guiding the group and just allowing the space to be what it is. Jindy and the other facilitators are not the ones who have the answers, they are not defining what a man should be or what Masculinity is, but they are holding the space by contributing and holding the principles and the shape of the conversation, rather than telling it where to go.
Throughout this work, Jindy still feels that tension of when to take some sort of action as a facilitator or when to contribute or when to say anything. He uses the coaching acronym WAIT â why am I talking?
Jindy has started to refer to himself more explicitly as a "facilitator" when starting doing this work with men, but he has used facilitation in different ways in his consulting career.
As to how the work with the circles and his co-facilitation have evolved, Jendy shares that when the groups started they introduced specific topics for discussion, but soon they started to invite the group to say what it wanted to explore. He shares some of the theories and practises that have influenced him including the idea from Wilfred Bion of that there are thoughts present in the group, but they haven't yet found a thinker.
It can sound almost mystical, but the unconscious is always present, is always active in a group. And collectively things can emerge in a group.
(For more on this read any of Jung or Freudâs work and Experiences in Groups by Wilfred Bion.)
Jiindy has trained as a facilitator with Way of Council and in the conversation he shares his experience there and its overlap with psychodynamic theory.
Jindy talks about his co-facilitators Aaron, Mark and Russell and how they met, and how they all bring something slightly different and have different influences. But that they have an important chemistry between them.
The team are not taking their work into organisations. The work here will be different as the dynamics in organisations will be different than in an open group. People there will have assumptions about each other, and there will already be a sense of status and hierarchy.
Jindy shares the pros and cons of doing these groups in person and online and about AI in coaching and wraps up with a couple of broad reflections: firstly, the conversation about men and masculinity is growing. Secondly, there is an increasing need for great dialogue and for great facilitated spaces for all of the things we're facing as a society.
If you want to find out more about Jindy's work, you can go to Leaderbrotherson.com. And also you can also check out his other organization called The Selfish Leader.
He is on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jindymann/
Men at Work Survey https://www.leaderbrotherson.com/resource/men-at-work-2023-survey
Leader Brother Son https://www.leaderbrotherson.com/about
You can connect with Pilar Orti on LinkedIn. https://www.linkedin.com/in/pilarorti/
Listen to our podcasts:
https://www.facilitationstories.com/
And connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories
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In today's episode, Nikki talks to Perle Laouenan-Catchpole, an Amsterdam-based facilitator and experienced designer. Perle shares the origins of Perle's award-winning, open-source workshop that aids individuals in identifying their personal climate action.
Perle discusses the importance of open source in facilitation work and the impact it has on personal growth, relationship-building and work perception. She firmly believes in the need for collaborative and shared resources in addressing pressing issues like climate change. T
he discussion also touches on different platforms for sharing open-source material and how they can be leveraged by other facilitators.
Links:
Website https://helloperle.com/
Perle's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/perlelc/
Session Lab Template https://www.sessionlab.com/templates/find-your-climate-sweet-spot/
Nikki's LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Here's the transcript of the conversation:NIKKI
Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories, brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of Facilitators, also known as IAF. My name is Nikki Wilson and my guest today is Perle Laouenan-Catchpole.
Welcome Perle. For listeners that don't know you, could you start by telling us a little bit more about you and your work?
PERLE
Yeah, absolutely. So, I am Perle. I'm a workshop facilitator, moderator, experienced designer and aspiring spoken word artist. It's something I have been pushing myself out of my comfort zone to do for a while now. And I'm based in Amsterdam. I was actually born and bred in Cornwall, so you'll notice a very British accent on me, and I've been living in Amsterdam for the past twelve years and have the great joy of co-parenting a five year old daughter. And yeah, that's about me.
NIKKI
Excellent. And so the inspiration for this episode came from a post you made on LinkedIn saying that you'd won a thing for a workshop you've designed. So, first of all, could you tell us a little bit more about what you won, and how that came about?
PERLE
Yeah, absolutely. Well, to give you a little bit more context about my work, so I went freelance in January and I was working as a full time facilitator before that. And over the past couple of years I really recognized that my skill as a facilitator is facilitating large groups online and that opportunity doesn't come along very often. So I started seeking out communities that could use my skills and landed on a community called Work on Climate, which is a 20,000 strong community of individuals trying to find climate work in climate or transition their roles into climate work.
And I facilitated a workshop for them using Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson's Ven diagram. That basically similar to Ikigai, which is the Japanese concept for finding purpose, helps you identify your personal climate action. So that workshop, 200 and something people turned up for it and it was incredible.
And the workshop design, I then submitted to a contest hosted by Session Lab, which is a facilitators platform, and then won in one of the categories. And I was just really happy to see that workshop then become an open source template for other people to use. So that's how I ended up writing a post on LinkedIn saying I want a thing.
NIKKI
Well, first of all, congratulations Perle, that's great news and you just touched on it there. But one of the things that had really caught my eye about that post was that you said that you'd made it into an open source template. So I wondered if you could tell us a bit more about how open source features in your facilitation work.
PERLE
Yeah, absolutely. And I'd say I kind of categorise it in two ways, because as a facilitator and experienced designer, I rely hugely on open source materials. I'm constantly seeking new ways of doing things, new concepts, new exercises. So I'm leaning on other people's open source material all the time - and then that then encourages me and it inspires me to do the same. And I actually believe that facilitation is an abundant skill set.
We need more Facilitators in the world. We need it in our organizations, in our teams. And I fundamentally believe that if we can support one another to grow those tools, that mindset, that approach in our work, then the world is better for it. And yeah, I just believe there's enough work for all of us. So why keep my skills, my knowledge, my understanding of how to facilitate to myself, if we can kind of trigger other people to do more with their work too, especially when it comes to climate?
NIKKI
Excellent. You've talked a little bit about kind of drawing from other people's work as a key tool for yourself. But how did you first start working in a way where you were sharing more of this information? And how do you go about that?
PERLE
Yeah, I feel like that it kind of reinforces some of my key values as just a human being, where I aspire to be and try to be open and kind and authentic anyway. And then I have had the pleasure to work for many organisations and companies that do the same. So they either are open to partnering with lots of different partners to achieve their goals or providing services that increase access to global needs such as health care and education. So in a way, my value system makes me seek out organisations or types of work that allow me to be an open source minded person, I guess.
NIKKI
So thinking a bit more about what impact opening up and sharing your own work has had on you, could you tell us a little bit more about that? How has it affected how your work is perceived or the relationships you build, those kind of things?
PERLE
So I truly believe that if you're open with your work and your approach to work and you are authentic in that process, then you attract the same types of people and opportunities back. And I also have a fundamental belief that we are able to grow with each other. I'm not somebody who works very well individually. I really work better when someone else is able to spark my energy, grow my energy, add to my ideas, add to my body of work. And I know that I am valuable for other people in that way. So if we kind of can approach facilitation with that kind of mindset, then we only make it better for people receiving that facilitation.
So yeah, it's just a belief system, I guess. And I'm feeling the benefits of it because I meet incredible people, I work with incredible people and I do a job I love.
NIKKI
And so, I mean, personally, I'm really a convert to the benefits of open. Now, I was before this conversation, but you've even convinced me more. But I think when I first started to become more aware of this way of working, it felt a bit counterintuitive. And you've said that you yourself have more recently gone freelance. And I think there was a sort of mindset around, if I give too much away, how will I justify charging for the things that I do want to? And also always being aware of things like risk of copyright and ownership. And for any listeners that are kind of grappling with some of those ideas, even if they've heard about the benefits from you, what would you say to them to kind of reassure them or convince them to give it a try?
PERLE
Yeah, I actually want to just first acknowledge that it's a very real feeling, right? Because it took me a second to press that button and submit my template to be open source, because in the end, well, anyway, that is a free workshop that I'm offering so a couple of hundred people could join it without any monetary benefit to me. So I was already making that choice for it to be open source. And yeah, it's a workshop that I could have monetized. But I also believe there's different types of level of my work that I can monetize and there's other types of work that I can open out to people to learn myself, learn what works, what doesn't, and test new concepts, test new ideas. And so I use often my free workshops or my open workshops as testing grounds. And that enables me to get stronger as a facilitator, hone my skills. So I won't provide all workshops open source or all templates open source, because in the end, I need to also grow my paid work, my clients, I also want to be able to provide my clients with tailored solutions that work for them. And some of it can work for other organisations, and I will share the bits that could.
So in a way, it's not one or the other, it's about the gradient and just giving parts of you or parts of your thinking or your work out into the world so that you can spread a certain message or spread a certain need that the world needs.
NIKKI
Okay, and you mentioned that the workshop that you won this award for was shared on Sessionlab. So is that the main place that you might open out workshops and designs, or are there other places that you also share content?
PERLE
Yeah, Session Lab is the first. Honestly, there are a few different platforms that I'm looking at to expand my work. One of my main clients, Limelights, that I work for quite a lot as a freelance facilitator, they have a couple of Miro templates that are available really around Sprint methodology, but also using Kotter's Eight Steps for Change in sustainability teams. So in a way, there's many different avenues that work can be shared. And as facilitators, we should be looking for these platforms to put our ways of working out there.
NIKKI
And so if anyone is listening and they're interested in finding out more about open source and how it could apply to their facilitation, what would you recommend as kind of sources of information/first steps?
PERLE
Yeah, well, I feel like there's obvious spaces to look for. So in Miro, Mural, there's so much abundance of resources that are available for facilitators. And then, of course, Session Lab is my daily go to. It's a gold mine of resources. The library is free, it's open, it can be used by anyone
And then actually Chat GPT, it's becoming my sparring partner and it's the place where I often put in the big questions like, where are the places that I could look for putting open source material there? What type of material should I be putting out into the world? So it's an aspiring partner that allows you to think with you to increase your accessibility to different resources that you may never have heard about before.NIKKI
Okay. And for all those places that you mentioned, is it possible for other facilitators to share their work on those places as well? Just to confirm, apart from Chat GPT obviously.
PERLE
Yeah, of course. Yeah, Miro, for sure. And actually, it triggers me, Nikki, to talk about Slack because there are so many Slack communities, Leapers, which is a freelance network, and then Freelancers Get Done. And that actually is a Slack community that has a facilitation bench and facilitation skills channel. And those channels are really great sources of ideas, but also just going, hey, I have 100 people in this workshop, two days, any inspiration of how I could get them from A to B or working on this challenge? And there are so many incredible kind of minds within minutes jumping on your challenge and helping you to come up with ideas.
NIKKI
Okay, there's so many different suggestions there Perle, so hopefully everyone's got a notebook, but weâll include them In the show notes as well. And so we had a quick sort of message exchange on LinkedIn after your post and you said that you felt that open source was where it's at, particularly around climate. And what is it specifically around climate that you think makes this a particularly important approach?
PERLE
The urgency, fundamentally the urgency. We need fundamental change and action and we need it fast. And the more we do things, do things together, open out... I got the workshop idea based on Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson's open Source Ven diagram that she created that helps people find their climate action. Based on that work, I am able to create a workshop on it. And based on that, 200 people joined. And that's how movements start, that's how movements spread, start, and fundamentally, when it comes to climate, we know that we have to keep acting and keep acting fast.
So, yeah, fundamentally, open source is exactly where we should be, the kind of mindset we should be approaching with climate. And there's amazing case studies and examples of open source climate actions that are happening out there in the world and it's inspiring to see how many people are motivated to put their time and effort and their skills to solving world problems.
NIKKI
No, definitely with that in mind and all that we've talked about. I know myself that you're always working on things because I see them popping up, as I said, particularly through LinkedIn. But have you got anything in the pipeline that you're working on or that you want other listeners to know about that you know others are working on? Is there anything we should be looking out for?
PERLE
Yeah, so I'm working on quite a few open workshops with the Work on Climate community. So they're popping up every month or two and you can basically just follow me on LinkedIn and you will see the work. I feel like we've got summer approaching, things are a little bit quiet, so, yeah, I'm really focusing on testing concepts and doing that with communities like Work on Climate.
NIKKI
Great, well, I think it sounds like you're going to be keeping yourself busy in the slowdown over summer. So if any of the listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to do that?
PERLE
For sure, LinkedIn, my name will be spelled out for you in the show notes. I'm sure it's not an easy one. And then I also have a website that you can drop me a line on which is
https://helloperle.com/
And yeah, I'm very much looking forward to hearing from you.
NIKKI
Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Perle. It's been really good to talk to you this afternoon, and I hope you can keep spreading and sharing the open message and that some of the other facilitators listening kind of had their interest sparked in learning a bit more about this. Because I think totally agree with what you've said about kind of spreading the word, spreading the resources. It's so important. Thank you.
PERLE
Thank you, Nikki.
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In this episode, Pilar talks to fellow podcast team members Helene and Nikki, along with Penny Walker and Shanaka Dias about a global, hybrid process they facilitated together, running over 4 days with multiple languages and timezones.
They reflect on planning in advance, adapting in the moment and working well as a team.
The full transcript is below.
All of the team can be found on LinkedIn:
Penny Walker: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pennywalker/
Shanaka Dias https://www.linkedin.com/in/shanaka-dias-8765b51/
Helene Jewell https://www.linkedin.com/in/helenejewell/
Nikki Wilson https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicolawilson2/
Pilar Orti https://www.linkedin.com/in/pilarorti/
And you can find all of the links to IAF England and Wales on the Facilitation Stories website:
https://www.facilitationstories.com/
SPEAKERS
PO â Pilar Orti
HJ â Helene Jewell
NW â Nikki Wilson
PW- Penny Walker
SD â Shanaka Dias
PO 00:03
Hello and welcome to Facilitation Stories brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of facilitators also known as IAF. My name is Pilar Orti and I have the absolute pleasure of recording today with not one guest, not two, not three, but four. So first of all, let me introduce fellow co-hosts of the show Helene Jewell, hello, Helene.
HJ 00:26
Hello, nice to see you.
PO 00:30
Nikki Wilson. Hello, Nikki.
NW
Hello.
PO 00:33
And I then like to welcome back to the show Penny Walker who first appeared in episode two of this show. So welcome back, Penny.
PW 00:40
Thanks very much. It's lovely to be here.
PO 00:43
And finally, first time guest and someone I've never chatted to before Shanaka Dias, welcome to the show.
SD 00:50
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
PO 00:52
So to have some proper introductions, I've asked each guest to prepare just two lines to introduce themselves. So we're going to say the same order in which I introduced you so that you'll know when it's coming. So Helene Jewell, we'd like to introduce yourself.
HJ 01:06
Hello,I'm Helene. I'm a freelance facilitator based in Bristol, and I work cross sector with all kinds of clients and Yeah, mostly team organisational development and strategy stuff.
PO 01:18
Excellent. Thanks, Helen and Nikki Wilson.
NW 01:21
Hello, I'm Nikki, I'm based in Essex and I run a social purpose business focusing on facilitation, research and strategic support. And as a facilitator, I particularly enjoy working on Deliberative Public Eengagement projects and Action Learning.
PO 01:39
Thank you. Thanks, Nikki and Penny Walker.
PW 01:42
Thanks, Pilar. I'm Penny. I'm an independent facilitator based in North London, and my specialism, I suppose is working with clients to have more effective conversations about tricky things. Maybe because they're complicated or there's conflict, or there's multiple parties. And those conversations are mainly about sustainable development topics. It might be climate change, it might be biodiversity loss. It might be I don't know social enterprises coming together. So those kinds of conversations. Yeah.
PO 02:14
Thanks, Penny, and Shanaka Dias.
02:17
Hello, I'm Shanaka. I'm based in London. I'm a freelancer. I work in the social sector with charities and foundations. And I guess my specialism is bringing people together to firstly have difficult conversations and to look at ways to come together around measure mission and vision and strategy.
PO 02:40
Thank you Shanaka. Thank you very much. Right. So the reason we have you all together for this very special episode, and we're really testing the platform as well, is that you all facilitated a trilingual hybrid session back in January 2023. Is that correct?
PW
That's right.
PO
Yeah. So I'm going to be discovering what you did along with the listener and what your challenges were. So let's start with how did this collaboration start? And maybe Penny, you can kick us off?
PW 03:12
Thanks. Yes. So I'm trained to use a particular process called the Organisational Mapping Tool, which is something that is promoted by the Ford Foundation, a philanthropic funder based in the US, and one of the grantee organisations needed to use this tool as part of the grant conditions, and because I'm on the list, they came to me and they said, could you run this for us? And they said itâs a little bit complicated, because we're going to it's going to be hybrid, and we know this, and I was not very comfortable with that. And I said, âWell, that is you know, it's going to cost you more, we're going to need a bigger team. And you knowâ, they said yâes, that's fine, we're comfortable with hybridÂŁ. And they said, âOh, and by the way, we also need to do it in three languages. So and by the way, we would like to have other meetings going on, kind of with the people who are in the room together over the timeâ, so I knew that I needed a big team. Nikki has worked with me before using this particular process once so I thought that she would be my first kind of âgo toâ person and I know that Helene had a great time helping out make the IAF England and Wales conference hybrid a couple of years ago, so I thought, I wonder if Helene will be up for being on the team. And then I asked I asked them who else they knew who they thought might be up for it and Nikki recommended Shanaka so that was how we came to be working together.
PO 04:42
Nice. Oh, I love that because of the you some of you have worked together there was a new elements into the into the four so I love it. Excellent. Nice and who were their participants then? If one of you feels like giving us just an overview of who they Were where they were located. And just a little bit of the logistics around the event. Helene.
HJ 05:05
So the participants were the staff from this organisation. And they were based in several different countries. And I can't completely remember which countries they were based in, but we had probably, Penny may tell me, I'm wrong, half of them in the room, and another half in different countries over Zoom. And so yeah, it was bringing their different different staff members from within the organisation together.
PO 05:34
And the people who were online, were they in their other countries together and online or individually online,
NW 05:41
I think it was quite a mixture, mostly on their own. Some of them were in the same country, but not sitting in a location together.
PO 05:50
Okay, so at least you had that and Penny can you do remember the countries of the participants?
PW 05:59
So we had some, we were working across multiple time zones, which was another kind of design challenge. So we had some people in Sub Saharan Africa, we had some in South America. I'm not sure if the people who were in kind of Asia Pacific managed to join us. And the other interesting thing about it was that we had some people who started online, and then were able to join us in the room, and vice versa. So there was someone who tested positive for COVID, partway through who went from being in the room to online. So that changed, so we needed to have really good understanding of who our participants were. And each morning, we would sit down with our key kind of client liaison and find out who was going to be in the room and who was going to be online, and what languages they were comfortable speaking in so that we could think about how we might do breakout groups, I can see Helene is rubbing her eyes, even just at the memory of it.
HJ 06:58
It's funny, because on the one hand, I sort of I remember, you know, I loved the challenge of being kind of quite, you know, think on our feet and all the rest of it. On the other hand, when I recall some of the elements, I think so âhow did we do that?â
PO 07:11
Wow. So over four days. So that's interesting. Before we go into maybe how you prepared for it? Does that mean that during the four days? Did that look like you ,were you meeting before each session together? How are you checking in with the client who wants to have a bash? Penny go for it.
PW 07:32
So we, it was over four days, but each day, we only worked on this particular event for half of the day. So the people who were in the room had other side meetings when they weren't in session. And that helped us overcome some of the timezone difficulties. And the other thing about it that people will be interested to hear is that three of our team were in the room, so Helene and Shanaka, and me were with the client and Nikki actually did all her work online. So our check-ins were over Zoom, so that we could make sure that that Nikki was there. And it also meant that Nikki was able to give us a really good insight as to what the online experience was like, because try as you might if you're in the room, that's that's the thing that pulls you. And it's very easy to neglect or not have a proper understanding of what the online experience is like.
NW 08:30
Yeah, I think sort of adding to that. The fact that I was purely online, and there was no temptation to even be in the room, I was in a completely different location made that a very pure experience as well. I think if we'd ended up swapping on and offline, it would have been, that would have been a bit more blurred. But it was very clear to me that I was experiencing it just as someone who was joining from anywhere else in the world apart from obviously, that English is my first language, so I didn't have that added layer, but I think that that really made it very focused on this is what the online experience is like.
PO 09:07
Yeah. And did you have interpreters as well? Is that right?
PW 09:11
Yeah. So the client tries to be, it's part of their push to be very inclusive and to make sure that they have for the work they're doing in country that it's with people who are from that country rather than, you know, white, Northern World kind of people parachuted in. So they they have quite a lot of experience of working in English, French and Spanish. And so they already had, not in-house, but they had interpreters who they have worked with a lot in the past and they taught us about Zoomâs interpretation channel, which I don't think any of us had used before, so that was quite exciting. And they also were very comfortable using a translation software called Deepl, which I had not come across before, but does seem to be a kind of a really good bit of automatic translation software. So they were quite used as an organisation to at least trying to make that work. And that was something that I definitely felt I learned from the experience.
PO 10:24
Wow very heavy tech. Helene, were you going to say something?
HJ 10:27
No, I was just saying I had used the interpretation, software on Zoom before, but never, not with three different languages going on. And most certainly not with hybrid. So I think that the challenge was the sort of the added, you know, added bonus of not just one logistical challenge, which is working in three languages, but obviously, the hybrid element and making those two things work together.
PO 10:51
So you had everything interpretation, timezones, online versus in person and, and going and people turning up switching, I've never come across that, like people switching between the two mediums. So let's talk a bit about how you prepared for it. Shanaka, I'm going to go to you. Because for me, it feels like you were the one that was coming into, these three people already knew each other, so how did the group preparation look like? And also, from your point of view, what are some of the things you remember from the beginning of the process?
SD 11:26
I'm thinking back to it. So um, we had a quiet, a really structured plan. So Penny put together a really structured plan. But at the same time, we sort of knew we would have to be adaptable to that. So we tried as much as we could to look at the languages that people spoke, put them into groups, we tried to think about how we could mix up the group so that the same people speaking the same languages weren't only speaking to each other all the time. So we also tried to look at who was multilingual and mix up those groups, that had varying levels of success. And we also wanted to try and make sure that it wasn't just the people online speaking to each other, that they would be able to speak to people in the room as well. And that had varying levels of success as well. So we a lot of planning went into it. But then we had to adapt on the fly as things turned up, because there were a lot of moving parts. And I think the one thing that really stood out was just how well we managed to work together around that. And part of that was down to, I think, having clear roles. So we really defined what we were doing. We swapped out Helene and I swapped on the day because we were both in the room. So on each day, we would swap out what we're doing, and have a turn at it, but at the same time, even though we had clearly defined roles, we were flexible enough to help each other when different things started to happen. And that worked really, really well. The client, were really surprised that this was the first time that we were working together we were we got some great compliments off the back of that.
PO 13:09
Nice. Anything else to add about that preparation?
PW 13:13
Well, I think I, I wasn't really sure how to bring us together as a team and how to how to prepare for it. And I think I fell back on just trusting that if we got to know each other a little bit, that would be a really helpful platform. So our first kind of planning meetings when when we first kind of talked about it. Think I invested a bit of time in getting people just to say, kind of talk about their work and what they were interested in and what they were comfortable doing and not comfortable doing. And out of that emerged a little bit of what would be appropriate roles. And I think the team, let me know that if we did it, not that we necessarily would want to because it was very challenging. But if we did something like this, again, that the lead facilitator role in the room could be shared out a bit more than we did. I think I held on to that because I was anxious about, the thing that maybe hasn't come across so much in this conversation yet is how prescriptive the process was that we needed to go through using this Organisational Mapping Tool, which was a survey a whole staff survey of maybe, actually when you count them up individually, over 80 questions, and we needed to present the data and then get the group to kind of come to consensus around what the group score was based on the data and to have conversations about it. And there were glitches with the, with the form that was provided. So actually, some of the questions didn't properly record the data that people that, the responses that people put in Shanaka spent a lot of time between sessions combing through that manually and and brought a lot to that, and then so there was a lot of prescription in the process. And I kind of felt that I needed to make sure that we got through that, perhaps at the expense of the more interesting, creative, flexible kind of conversations that you might want to have when you bring all your staff together for for that amount of time. So I definitely felt some tensions. And it came. One of the things I thought about was the different kinds of compromises that we might need to make as a team. You know, we know we've got a compromise to make here. Are we going to favour this or that in the design and so on?
PO 15:33
Helene did did want to add something go for it, Helene?
HJ 15:36
Yeah, no, it was just the in that planning phase. So because Penny and Nikki had use this tool before, and were familiar with it, I think that was that was a really kind of interesting, but helpful dynamic, that they could bring their experience of having used it before. And I think that obviously informed the plan. But in that process, and in that, sort of uncovering the prescriptiveness as Penny's just said, I realised, one of the things I realised was that Shanaka in particular, is very good detail and I myself find very not a detailed person. So that I think then informed how we sort of played to our strengths when it actually came to working together because of the glitches and as Penny said, in the form, and the various things sort of to do with that detail of getting the data weren't quite as we wanted, Shanaka was able to sort of jump in and help. And then actually, as we, we did move on our feet throughout the process, it was that detailed kind of what I call Excel spreadsheet, nightmare stuff, I really didn't want to run away from that, but I realised he was really good at so that helped, you know, helped us work together to find and focus on a bit that we knew we were, you know, we could add to more
PO 16:49
Thank you, Shanaka is there something you wanted to add?
SD 16:54
Yes, actually, I was, I was gonna say, we, the overall feeling for me is we each held our space really well. So I was comfortable that Nikki was holding the space for the online group, so that I could let that go. And I could focus on the some of the detail and fixes that were needed. I was comfortable that Penny was holding the space in terms of the whole thing and giving us the space to work on some of the issues that we were having. And I was comfortable that Helene would be looking after the sort of people elements of it, and sort of providing that creative boost and the energy that was really, really needed. So that gave me the headspace to focus on dealing with some of the issues that we were having. And that was a very comfortable space to be in, even though all these things are happening at the same time.
PO 17:46
Thank you, Nikki talking about the preparation, maybe that you had to do to be online? Do you feel there was anything that was different or similar? How was that how was preparing to be the person who was holding the online cohort?
NW 18:05
Well, it was, it's very interesting, because I don't consider myself a techy person in particular at all. So having that as my kind of responsibility was quite interesting. So yeah, so that was quite interesting, I think particularly thinking about the multilingual aspects, the fact that they were going to be the interpreters who were joining online as well, and that they were sort of part of my cohort. But they were also supporting people in the room occasionally, was quite interesting. I think, as a person, I really like to plan everything. And so the kind of weekend before I was there, trying to arrange, you know, who would be in what breakout and how I could, and I had all these spreadsheets and lists and things. Of course, when it got into the room that went completely out of the window. And I had a notebook and a pen, and I was scribbling names down going, âwell, this person's here today and that person isnâtâ and so I think, yeah, it was, it was probably quite a big lesson in thinking, well, you know, in many ways it does is not a use a good use of time to really spend lots of time preparing for those kinds of things. But I knew that for my own peace of mind, I needed to feel like I've done as much as I could to prepare for it. And then if I needed to wing it in the room, that was fine, because there was nothing more I could have done. So I think there was that aspect to it.
I suppose just thinking about how we made sure that there felt like there was a level of equal space for online and in the room people and I think that's that's an ongoing challenge with an event like this, because there is no way that those experiences are the same. And I had some people who were joining at sort of 4am in the morning, and for some of them, it was the middle of the night, you know, their energies were different at different times a day and I couldn't really have anticipated that but I think we was just trying to be as conscious as possible that there were these kinds of two parallel experiences and that we were going to need to learn as we went as to how that worked.
PO 20:11
Nice. Thank you. And just touching on that, I think, yeah, let's touch on that, on the, the experience of the people in the room and the online. So let's focus on the hybrid aspect. What were some of the things that you, you planned? And the ones that one were they what are some of the things that you did in order to, to keep it as one whole, like a feeling of sense of whole?
PW 20:37
Well, I think it'd be lovely to hear from everybody on this, because I think we'll have different perspectives. But there was one thing that we did, that was I think it's fair to say that I was quite uptight at the beginning of the process, and by the time we got to maybe the beginning of day three, I felt able to kind of make jokes I'd be, I'd be a bit more relaxed. But we did a kind of an icebreaker, where we knew we couldn't get everyone because a very large group, we knew we couldn't get everyone to speak. But I asked some questions that were a bit like the kind of âthe sun shines onâ kind of process. So I asked âwho is currently the, or who has been the furthest north in the world?â. And we got a story from people who thought they probably had been the furthest north, and then who's been the furthest south, and we got stories from people who thought they'd been further south, and then âwho's, who's nearest the equator now?â. And that was a way of making sure that we brought in at least, there was an opportunity for some of the people online who I knew would be geographically,we weren't very near the Equator in the UK, so there was that question and that worked quite well to, to bring in the people who were online, because we knew just by geography, that, that would be an opportunity for them to say something. We also asked about, who's got who thinks they've got the most unusual pet? And someone, actually, who was, who was joining online from their garden, picked up a tortoise and showed it to the camera. And we've got some other great kind of pet related stories. And then I also, at a different time, asked people to tell us about a local delicacy, that's a food that's special to your, to your kind of country or culture that you think other people won't have eaten. And we did get quite a good variety of, of stories. And I think that was the question that got the most engagement from people online. And also probably challenged the interpreters, poor things. But, but let's hear from some of the others ,
PO 22:36
That's great, for it, Helene.
HJ 22:38
Yeah, so from a technical point of view, rather than a process point of view, necessarily. I know, one thing that we got good feedback on was the fact we had a participant cam, which was, so they weren't unused to having hybrid meetings, , but the way that I think they commonly did them was just, you know, they had one camera, and it was kind of less, you couldn't see the room necessarily couldn't see individuals speaking and we had a tablet that Shanaka, I took turns in sort of running around the room, if you like, taking the camera, the tablet camera up to a participant, so you could speak directly into it. And apparently, that was really appreciated. So although it was a bit of, room space wasn't as easy as it might have been, there were a few things to kind of, logistical challenges of moving around it, let's say, but actually, I'm pleased that we managed to sort of do that quite often, you know, all the time to sort of help people to kind of actually, you know, show when they were speaking each time.
PO 23:39
And it's so nice when you have such a low tech process, like with an iPad, but that actually people see like you, you really are as a person making a genuine effort to include everyone. It's not just that you've got the best tech in the world, and you can do it. So anything else about what you did as a group, but also what you did personally maybe would be interesting. Nikki, Shanaka, if there is something so what else?
SD 24:04
I think just one additional thing that popped into my mind is we had to think about the translators as well. And we did get feedback, at one point that people were, they were finding it a bit difficult to translate at the speed that they were talking to. So we had regular reminders, once we had that feedback to get people to slow down, and I think we had a picture of a tortoise on the wall that we drew as a reminder for people to slow down as well. So we had to take that into consideration too.
PO 24:36
Wow, that dynamic you're trying to create all this energy and all this cohesion, but you've got to slow it down. That is like a real effort to keep the momentum while the speed can't go. Yeah, anything else
NW 24:51
As a team as well, that that kind of very set space where we reflect it together online as a team really It was beneficial that we, you know, we, we invested quite a bit of time in kind of a debrief for kind of how did it go? What can we do tomorrow kind of thing. So I didn't ever feel like through the team in the room although I was aware they were doing things that I was not party to, we were still always checking in so that we sort of had that grounding together each day. And that I felt like we'd had actually walked through what to expect rather than just being sent a plan by email that the others had all discussed, I think there was that important aspect of feeling like a hybrid team as much as creating a hybrid event for the participants as well, from my perspective, at least that that really was important to me, because I could easily have felt like I was just there to press buttons, really. So it's really important.
PO 25:52
Wow, from an inclusivity point of view, there's so many dimensions like you had okay, how do you feel as a team that you're all still together? How participants with the timezone aspect with the translators? Any anything about how you worked with the client, either anything you want to bring up either before, during, after Penny?
PW 26:13
Yeah, so the client had used the venue a lot before and was very confident that it would be fine. But I felt that I couldn't just rely on that. So I actually went to visit the venue, even though it was, it was a long way to go I took a whole day to go and visit the venue. But I think I might have even built that into my costing. So I think I knew when I did the costing, that would be important. And fortunately, it was quite close to where Heleneâs based, so Helene was able to come along as well. So actually two of the team had been to visit the venue and we had a much better idea of its limitations. The room was very dark, for example. So that meant it was even more important that we make an effort with the participant cam so that people online could get some sense of who was there rather than everyone being in shadow. The venue also did have in theory, Wi Fi everywhere, but we we stumbled when we tried to set up a hybrid breakout group in one particular area of the venue where it just wasn't up to it. So that was that was a bit tricky.
PO 27:25
And think about the client who are working through Yes.
PW 27:29
Oh, sorry. Yes, that's that was the thing. So what that? Sorry, I forgot what your question was. So all of that was around, that meant that Helene, and I got to meet a couple of people from the client team, they were extremely responsive, and really, that lovely mixture that you sometimes get with a client of being really competent and capable, but also quite laid back and flexible. So I think that really helped us and we met with them, they came to help us set up a couple of hours before the first session. So we were doing things together, we were swapping out bits of equipment that belonged to the client organisation or that we had brought with us. And we also included them in different debriefs. And I think that worked. I think that worked really well. And there was a, there was a point at which which we might come on to a little bit later, where the group kind of told us that they didn't like the process. And I think that was that was a really useful thing for us to have already built a sense of trust with the with the kind of client team that actually we personally, I sometimes feel anxious that I you know, am I performing well enough for the client? Am I you know, am I giving good service? and that sometimes is an anxiety for me, which makes, which can lead to me being inflexible. But I think we've built up enough of a good relationship, that actually flexibility at that point didn't feel like an admission of failure, like, oh, I should have planned this better. It just felt like a really natural thing to do in response to the group.
PO 29:04
Yeah, well, we will pick up on on that. Helene, anything else to add about working with a client?
HJ 29:10
Yeah, I was just thinking about the fact that we went to visit the venue beforehand. And how we also looked at just because I think I had tech focus as my role, partly, one of the things we did was find out what equipment they commonly use, because they work internationally, having hybrid meetings is not something that is they're not used to. So I think, us finding out what they used and trying to work with it rather than coming along and saying, âNo, we're not going to use that, we've got this special way of doing it, we're going to do it our wayâ. For me that felt quite important, that we built on what they had already, and tried to adapt it and add to it rather than just kind of you know, come in with our own system because I think then that helped make the setup a bit more a bit easier.
PO 29:58
Thank you. So we will already started to hear and listeners, they're all nodding at each other I have to tell you, it's like everyone's like,â yeahâ. So, you've already started to, to mention some of the things that didn't quite work as well, maybe or, or that that could have worked better that you found out, you needed to adjust. So Shanaka, I'm gonna go back to you when you were talking about one of the challenges was about mixing people who were more comfortable with one language than another. You mentioned this earlier, that one of the ways in which you prepared to bring everyone together was by mixing people with different first languages and that, but you said it didn't go as well as? Or that there were some problems or I don't know how you phrased it. Can you tell us a little bit about that, how that looked like, and what were the issues that came up?
SD 30:48
Oh, I was more on the one of the responding party for this so there might be more detail coming from Nikki or Helen. Oh, great.
PO 30:56
So you were an observer?
SD 30:58
But yeah, yes, I think it was more. In particular, the one that comes to mind was when the Internet wasn't working properly. And we had a mixed group. And we'd planned how who would be in the groups, so we could swap them out. And we knew that we were quite careful to make sure that people could speak the right languages, and that people would feel supported both online and offline. But because the Internet didn't work, our groups weren't working. So they sort of came and ran to us and say, âThis isn't working, we need to do something, can we like, join another group?â, which then threw our plans out of who was in what group. So then we were just having to respond to all of that. And we were able to, it was a bit touch and go. But yeah, the client had an idea of what they wanted to do, and to get around it. And we just supported them through that. But yeah, our original plan didn't work. So we just adapted around it. And then we needed to keep track of who was where. So a lot of moving parts. But the client seemed happy afterwards. So they were okay with it. We were just a little bit stressed and had a few more wrinkles
PO 32:07
Oh the internet. And how about, yes, Nikki, we're going to say something.
NW 32:12
There was this sort of this kind of mindset shift that we needed to do of kind of the ideal world of what a perfect hybrid would look like, and the reality of what was achievable, that what was practical and didn't involve so much kind of complication that it took away from the process, I think I was very conscious that there was one group that were online, who more or less work together throughout the same process. But that was partly because there are a number of people who only spoke French, so we couldn't swap them in and out. And although we could bring other people in, they needed to all be together all the time, because of the way that the translation interpretation worked. And the fact that they were all online, so we couldn't do this kind of hybrid with the room. So I think in the ideal world, we would have swapped them around. In reality, I'm not sure it really took away from the experience. And it was very clear that we planned differently, but that, you know, practical barriers were in the way. So I think even that ethos of kind of, we're gonna try our best to make this mixed and, you know, interactive, but at least if everybody has a discussion that they can participate in, and that we try our best to kind of bring people together in the plenary sessions to kind of interact, then, you know, it was that, as I say, it was that balance between pragmatism and the ideal world, really, that we needed to keep revisiting all the way through,
HJ 33:41
I was thinking about the groups and the way, we had to kind of really keep an eye on the groups. And we did try and set up some mixed hybrid online and in person groups. And then we had, as I said, the different language groups, and we tried to mix them up at a fair bit. But in doing that, also, we, the bit that wasn't apparent to anybody online is that this venue had a number of different buildings. It wasn't just, it wasn't a hotel, let's say we've got, you know, shiny breakout rooms, it was spread over a little bit of a, an area. So Shanika, and I between us did spend a fair amount of time walking between buildings to check in the groups as well. So there was an added dimension of us having to actually, you know, physically go between different places and also work out which corners and which buildings have the right, the best Wi Fi. So there was there was another added level, if you like, running around trying to sort that out.
PO 34:39
Yeah, go for it Penny.
PW 34:41
So I'm just thinking, I can't believe we've got this far into the conversation and not mentioned the fact that we had a Miro board it was a place where we displayed the data, so the results the kind of responses to each question. And it was also the place where we expected groups to take, to write their kind of notes about, you know, that whatever discussion they'd had about the, the area of the survey that they'd been allocated. And it was also the place where we took notes in plenary of the conversations. And I'm not sure if we would make a different decision about how, I think we definitely needed a virtual space of some kind for written material. Some people found it, they were very unfamiliar with it, very unconfident using it. And there were also some particular aspects of Miro to do with whether you can pin things down, how movable things are on the board, whether things get lost. And also, if you type too much before clicking, somehow your text gets, there was one session where we had to basically remember afterwards, what had happened in the session for the plenary notes, because because we hadn't realised that Miro has a character limit, and everything had been written, but it somehow wasn't there.
HJ 36:02
So yeah, so fess up, it was me who was typing merrily, So Shanaka, and I took it in turns to live type, plenary conversation. So there was, you know, great, groups were feeding back. Penny was facilitating Shanaka andI took it in turns to type up the notes. And so I was merrily typing in Miro, and then eventually realised that it wasn't, I was typing, but nothing was on the Miro board, because it does have this character limit. So we were really quickly able to recall what we needed to and put it in a Google Doc. And actually, I think it is a lesson that just choose something simple when you're doing something like that, like a Google Doc or whatever, to, you know, type all the stuff you need to and then we can put it back into the Miro board later, it would have been much less stressful. But that's yeah, lesson learned.
PO 36:50
Listeners, they're all throwing their hands to their heads and nodding and smiling, and you can just feel the pain looking at them, Nikki?
NW 36:59
Well, actually, I'm honestly not because I didn't know anything about that. So you've never told me that, which is really interesting. I had no idea it was all fixed by the morning. But we did it at the very end piece. We might be jumping ahead here. But we asked for a longer form bit of writing. And in the end, I think a number of them defaulted to doing a Google Doc or something and just sending it to us. And you know, at the end of the day, they were able to read out some of the things that they'd said, and we didn't actually need all of the detail on the Miro board then and there. And we were able to capture it in a different way. So again, there's that is always that balance, isn't it between something that if it worked perfectly would be the ideal tool. And then there's the practical aspects of people needing to use it other people with that kind of tech when they haven't got great internet access, when they're not all as familiar with technology. And but yes, I can't believe that there was that issue that I had no idea about? Because you obviously were fixing it, probably late into the night when I was tucked up in my bed. But yeah,
SD 38:08
I would say um, once again, that was that was in a way, that was a lovely moment as well, because I remember the stress of us realising the notes, were not there. A significant portion of notes were not there. And Penny, you just came in and held the space and said, Okay, let's prove, and let's look at what we can do. We've all worked, you know, we can start taking notes from what we remember. And then together, we sort of all brought it together. But it really helps having that calm space to do that, rather than everybody getting worried. So it worked quite well in the end. But it was a stressful moment.
PO 38:41
Yeah, for you. It's great when you can say how much you learned from it, and how well it was handled? Yes, plenty.
PW 38:50
So So I've experienced a funny sort of split personality at those sorts of moments, because I think about how terrible I would feel if if, if that were me, and and if I were about to get kind of told off for having made such a terrible mistake. And so I kind of feel that anxiety. And at the same time, I'm thinking like some other great facilitators who I've worked with where I've been part of the team and they've been the lead facilitator, you know, what would they have done at this moment, that would have been the perfect thing for me to be on the receiving end of and try to channel that. So being able to say, look, you know, nobody died. We can, we can only do what we can do, let's see what we remember, you know, we're all doing a fantastic job. And I felt it was really important to keep reminding myself and and the team I kind of felt that slight sense of team leader responsibility to remind us all of how great we were doing as it went along because different different ones of us had different moments. Whether it was beforehand, you know, Nikki's described worrying about what the grouping was going to be Like, or whether it was kind of partway through, you know, we can, we can do a better job if we're all just realising that we're already doing a great job, and that it's all fine. And that the whatever solution we come up with, you know, will be a good solution
PO
Thanks, Nikki
NW 40:16
And I think this, this, again, might not be the right moment for this. But I think that, then what Penny said just had a particular resonance for me around this kind of team energy that actually having four of us in the team, that clearly this was a very intense process, it was quite tiring, even though I was sort of, I was really buzzing at the end, which is this, again, this weird kind of mix. But that we probably all had dips and peaks of energy at different times. And we were able to adapt to that and kind of carry each other through, you know, like somebody's having a difficult moment with something. And we were probably, even though we weren't all together, we were aware that someone was having to focus on fixing something or whatever, the rest of us could just go, alright, we'll deal with everything else. And it was sort of one of those things where probably we hadn't really engineered it, it just happened. And it was just really fortunate that as a group, we were able to work well in that way. Because we probably all have a slightly different energy about us, things that we bring to a space that the others don't. And so there was just this kind of really fortunate gelling of the team, which allowed us to kind of maintain a fairly consistent energy outwardly whilst having dips and peaks individually. So yeah.
PO 41:40
That's a really nice point. So before we, before we start to wrap up and just ask you, I'm going to just ask you individually for some reflections, don't we'll just go around the four of you. But I did want to come back. Just just to touch on. Penny, you mentioned that at some point, the participants or the group said that they were not liking the process. Is that right? So what happened?
PW 42:04
Well, there were two aspects of the process that people didn't like. One was how kind of laborious and time consuming going through the survey was. And I would say that they were right. It is boring and time consuming. And it's kind of a mandatory part of the process. And in a way, my strategy at that point was to was to be on their side and say, yeah, it is that but it's a funding requirement. So you know, let's, let's just make the let's make the best of it. The second bit was the bit where it got interesting from a participant conversation point of view was when they had been through the whole survey, and they had an opportunity to prioritise three aspects of all of the things that the survey covered it to look at it in more detail. And I proposed, I think, I think my proposal was that on day four, we would spend our time doing that deep dive using a kind of, I think I suggested a carrousel process. Or maybe we weren't divided into six groups to start with, do a kind of bit of a brainstorm on what good looks like for each of the three priorities. In fact, in the end, the group rebelled even more and had four priorities even though the process prescribes three. And that they would then I can't even remember what I proposed, it was either that they would do it as a carousel, or that they would just have to pick one. And just deep dive on that. And they said, âActually, we don't want to do that we we want to give an opportunity for everybody talk about the thing that they're most interested inâ. And I think because we had talked about it quite exhaustively as a team, because I was conscious that there wasn't actually a single perfect bit of process. We talked about, shall we do it this way? Shall we do it that way? Shall we carousel it? Shall we do it in three groups? Do people get to choose their groups? How important is it that all of the three priorities get kind of equal number of people talking about them? Because we had, because I changed my mind quite a lot and talked through some different options with the team. I felt like I was like, I had a kind of unwritten mandate from the rest of the team to basically say, okay, yeah, we there isn't a perfect process here. You know, I can see what the downsides are of your suggestion, which was that they divide into small groups and each group work on the one it's most interested in to start with, and then choose other ones and basically have an opportunity to work through up to four priorities. In the time that we had, I felt able to say, â Okay, well, I can see that there are some downsides to this. And as long as you're happy to accept those potential downsides to accept those risks, then absolutely, you know, do it the way you want.â And we had a bit of conversation back and forth with the people in the room. I'm trying to remember whether anyone online actually got involved with that conversation. It's in my memory, it's very much an it was very much an in the room conversation. But I don't know whether anyone online got involved. Do you remember,
NW 45:23
I don't think particularly because it was quite fast moving and dynamic. Obviously, we hadn't planned that, the conversation to go that way. And it was sort of bouncing around the room. And I suppose on reflection, perhaps kind of advocating more for having a small discussion with the online group might have at least felt like they'd contributed, even though I don't think anybody objected to the way it went, if you see what I mean. I don't think anybody online did but at the same time, it was probably two or three people in the room actually, that proposde something kind of adapted it a bit together, and everyone went, âOkay, that sounds reasonableâ. And, you know, we needed to make fairly rapid decision because we only had whatever it was an hour or so left of the day to kind of put people in groups and have this discussion. Itâs important to note that this whole process is framed as a starting point, it's actually about opening up the discussion helping people to identify priorities, but it's never meant to kind of be conclusive. And that actually, we were just giving them space toâ start teasing out some of the issues within those priorities. But making that clear, as well. And saying, Whatever you do now, is something that you can take away and build on,â we were able to let go of the kind of output of that discussion a little bit more and just go, you know, the value is the fact that this is an opportunity that you don't often have to all come together to discuss these things. And then what happens is your choosing really, so was that really, that helped, again, as well as the fact that Penny had some clear sort of options and parameters that we had considered to then say, you know, we can adapt to this, because we want the out output for you to be as valuable as it could be, you know, we're not hung up on what that looks like, necessarily. So
PW 47:15
I think the other thing about the client organisation, and the group that we were working with, is that compared to most groups, they were quite process literate. I think they probably used quite a lot of participatory conversations of different kinds in their actual work as an organisation. So there were people who had the language and you know, had quite clear rationale for the views that they were expressing about the process that they should use.
PO 47:47
Yeah, I suppose that's, I suppose that's quite unusual as well. Yeah. In such a big group as well. Great. Well, what a nice, I think this is a perfect place to to wrap up. So I'm going to just ask you for some quick reflections. Shanaka, we'll start with you. It could be something that you learned that you enjoy that you want to share with listeners, I'm just going to leave it open. So Shanaka some final words from you. Thank you,
SD 48:12
I've taken a lot of what we've done then actually into other facilitation work. So a lot of learnings and that is very much about letting go of the process. Sometimes even though you can prepare, you can let go of the process and trust the participants to be able to do something, as well as bringing in a bit of humour and icebreakers just to create that bonding. That has worked really well. So yeah, I've taken that into further jobs. And it was just such a lovely team to work with. And that balance of energy, as Nikki said, us holding the space and getting us through the ups and downs just worked amazingly. So it was a great experience. Helene
HJ 48:53
Yeah, I think like Shanaka that allowing for the process to go a little bit sideways. And and that sort of management of that, definitely, I've learnt from that. And I've actually had a client recently that I've, I've really been able to sort of take a step back with and let the participants say that actually, they don't want this. They want it to work a different way. And sort of reflecting on this experience thinking yeah, actually, that that's okay to do that. And I think the other thing is, is this sort of team dynamic as well, and Penny's kind of what I call gentle leadership, you know, we felt very much like a strong team. And I don't often, you know, I'll often facilitate with one other facilitator, but not a team like this and it was just such a rewarding and really positive experience.
NW 49:38
Having done the process twice as well, that was a really interesting reflection, that the previous time that Penny and I had worked through this process, it was all online with it, even though that one in theory was much simpler. I felt that this one was had a much more kind of dynamic energy about it. And I really enjoyed the second one a lot more I think, partly because we felt a bit more able to let go of some of the process. And so there was that comfort in kind of knowing where we were trying to get to, but thinking actually, you know, we can be a bit more flexible with it, it's a kind of constant reminder, really, there's only so much planning you can do. And that, whilst that might give me comfort to feel I've done it. And you know that I do need to do that to feel like when I do need to be flexible, it's fine. You know, like, actually, this is just what's happening in the moment. It's a really a constant personal learning to keep applying that there's a bit that's planning. And there's a bit that just goes, I've planned for the fact that I would know I will need to adapt to this. And I don't know what's going to happen. And actually, that's part of the fun. Having a team alongside you to adapt with makes all the difference, though, because dealing with all of the challenges coming at you on your own is a completely different kettle of fish, I think for me to, to use an unusual phrase, but yeah.
PO 51:00
Great, and Penny.
PW 51:03
Well, so I think my closing reflections are a bit of a, an advert for getting involved in the IAF, whether you're a member or not, because actually, it's not just knowing somebody or having somebody kind of recommended to join part of a team, the fact that that Helene and I had kind of seen each other in action, if you like, at if events and experimented together at events, the fact that Nikki and I had worked together on teams that other people had brought together, there's nothing like feeling Yes, I've worked with that person, you know, albeit not in a client context. I've worked with them, I know that they're, you know, that they can bring something to a team. So anyone out there who's thinking, I don't know how I would bring together a team of additional people to do a piece of work, actually, you know, get involved, whether it's online or in person at some of those events. And, and that way, you know, you'll just have a much broader pool of people who when you need to bring together a team, you can think actually, yeah, I know. I know who I want to ask for this.
PO 52:07
Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for that. It is a great resource. So remember, listeners, that Facilitation stories is brought to you by the England and Wales chapter of the International Association of facilitators, also known as IAF. Well, thank you very, very much listeners for staying with us. Thank you so much to our guests, Helene Jewell, Nikki Wilson, Shanaka Dias and Penny Walker. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
And that's the end of today's episode of Facilitation Stories. Make sure you're subscribed to the show on whatever podcast app you use. And if you would like to contribute to the show, you can get in touch via email podcast at IAF-EnglandWales.org Or you can get all the other links from our website Facilitation Stories.com. This has been Facilitation Stories brought to you by IAF England and Wales.
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In this episode of Facilitation Stories Pilar is joined by Sue Bird, who is a European public affairs specialist and facilitator.
Sue ran a session on facilitating for government at the recent IAF conference. She talks about how pleased she was to be able to attend the IAF England and Wales conference in Birmingham recently, and how it was great to be able to meet fellow facilitators and understand how they're running their business, how they do facilitation. She talks about how she does both European Public Affairs consultancy work AND facilitation.
Sue reflects on a session she attended at IAF England and Wales about structuring your facilitation business. She set up her own business a year ago, following her 30 years work for the European Commission in a number of different policy areas, and in funding programme management. She wanted to set up a business that would play on these strengths and use the training she has received in the Art of Hosting and Participatory Leadership with the European Commission. She used this in her job to help in team building process, strategy development and other areas while employed with the Commission. She still helps them out in this way still as an âActive Seniorâ.
On the topic of how well embedded facilitation is into the European Commission, Sue mentions that the tools they use at the European Commission are well known tools, such as the World Café. She thinks that facilitation is about marrying passion and profession.
Sue talks about the very generous training offers in the European Commission and how she was attracted to facilitated meetings and realised that this was something she really wanted to get trained in. The Commission trained people to a good enough point to try them out as internal facilitators. Her facilitation work was in addition to her ordinary 40 hour week.
Sue describes the different types of work that she is able to offer now and how facilitation links into the public affairs she gets involved in.
Pilar asks how facilitation in government might be different to other sectors.
Sue explains that there are political processes that affect these different organisations and that being involved in politics is a very human experience. She talks about how uncertainty can arise and how there is often pressure on public officials. She also talks about when there are changes in the working environment and how reorganisation of services can happen every now and then. When change is in the air, there is quite a bit of uncertainty and, as in all large organisations, peopleâs opportunity to influence what they do is limited.
All of this will affect how people show up to facilitated sessions and how a facilitator needs to manage this.
Pilar asks whether when working with people in government, people might not be able to be as open.
Sue says that there would probably be a minimum amount of openness but that it will be up to the procurer of the service to set the scene. The facilitator will need to build up a trusting relationship with the client.
On the subject of working as a facilitator in an institution with people of different nationalities, Sue mentions the possible challenge of language. She will be soon facilitating a session in French, and although she is fluent, this will be harder work. International organizations tend to create a culture of their own, and there's a certain understanding that broadly facilitators need to accept that and work with it.
Sue shares a little about her role with the IAF Belgum chapter and their 24 members. They have two different types of meeting each month. The focus of one of them is on sharing tools that educate, while the other is called a âFacilitators Studioâ, where people can experiment. One recent topic has been different decision-making tools.
To connect with Sue Bird on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sue-bird-037311129/
You can connect with Pilar Orti on Twitter https://twitter.com/PilarOrti
Listen to our podcasts:
https://www.facilitationstories.com/
And connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories
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In todayâs episode Nikki talks to Ann Nkune about her rediscovery of Appreciative Inquiry.
Ann is a facilitator working with charities, social enterprises and the public sector helping people to increase their impact and be sustainable. Her work over the last 10 years has been parent friendly start up and career development programmes for women operate in the environmental and social impact sector.
Ann describes a Linked In post that she recently wrote about Appreciative Inquiry (AI) where she was able to connect with other AI enthusiasts to talk to about it, help her work through the complexities and challenges and think about what more she could do when facilitating. And how she had fallen back in love with it having not used it for a while.
Ann talks about the premise of AI and how most theories of change are about identifying a problem or risk. Whereas AI says that change is much more likely to happen when people understand where their strengths and the strengths of an organisation are, and can have a level of enthusiasm and optimism that change is possible. So AI increases the positive energy that comes from a group even when there are tricky things so they can see their way through the difficulties.
She describes some examples of AI and the process which starts with a topic and going through 4 stages; DISCOVEREY (proud/pivotal moments and skills and qualities), DREAM (allows people to step back and see the big picture and how she encourages people to be creative) - Ann shares an example of creating playdough toilets! DESIGN (what is the reality and what are the options) and DELIVERY (commitment to action and major projects that are required to get to the dream stage).
Ann tells Nikki how she had rediscovered AI in lockdown when doing goal setting online. She remembered how she first started to use it several decades ago and how she was initially quite cynical about it, but that AI gave the people she was working with a new perspective.
She shares her observations and different uses; for individual discussion e.g. mums of young children as a way of capturing their strengths, bringing together people in teams to build relationships in new ways. She describes how energising it is in a group and to be visionary even if they donât think they are.
Nikki asks how her thinking about it has evolved....Ann says she has a recognition that where situations are complex and there is anxiety or conflict that there needs to be a pre-briefing, something that happens pre-process so that people have an opportunity to vent and get things off their chest, and process so they can decide what is crucial to bring in and what can be left out, and to understand what is going to happen in the process.
She also describes how she discovered Time to Think by Nancy Klein and the thinking environment and how this requires a particular type of listening and questioning. Operating the AI process using thinking environment principles really improves it. She also considers conflict and Non Violent Communication as a potentially something to use before AI. She is also a fan of mindfulness as a way of preparing for these conversations.
Nikki asks about the preparation and getting to know the context when using AI . Ann says she doesnât do this as much as she used to when she felt she needed lots of facts. But now she needs to know that people are in the right frame of mind to do the process. She prepares well but doesnât get too bogged down in the details.
Ann shares some examples of using AI â individual work with women who have taken the leap from prevaricating to putting something in place and taking practical steps (using AI and the Lean Canvas). In terms of organisations she has done quite a few team building sessions, building relationships between board members and staff, allowing them to work more effectively.
To connect with Ann Nkune on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ann-nkune-6a08b211/?originalSubdomain=uk or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/bloomsburybeginnings/?hl=en and her webasite is: https://bloomsburybeginnings.org/
You can connect with Nikki Wilson on Twitter @NiksClicks
Listen to our podcasts:
https://www.facilitationstories.com/
And connect with us on Twitter: @fac_stories
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In this episode Pilar talks to Paul Kelly and Caroline Jessop about co-facilitation.
Caroline is a facilitator based just outside Winchester. She describes herself as a creative facilitator and enjoys the things that leave people upbeat and energised.
Paul is the founder of Pandek Group which is a Facilitation, Training and Coaching business based in the South West specialising in bridging the disconnect within organisations. He uses Lego Serious Play as one of his facilitation tools.
Paul and Caroline have recently worked together on an away day that focused on the disconnect within teams in a professional organisation. They had already had a conversation about wanting to do some work together when this piece of work came up.
Caroline describes herself as a born collaborator and how she and Paul have similar expertise but different styles. She felt this piece of work was quite serendipitous and had space in her diary to explore the âgrittyâ brief.
It was also a learning opportunity for them each to experience someone else working and their different techniques. Challenging, questioning, evaluating and rationalising, and reflecting on their own practise.
An example of this was in writing the plan and the level of detail, the order of the process.
Paulâs way of thinking about co-facilitation is that:
You can get someone to support you and for example get materials ready. Or they can act as a backup if there is illness or emergency.
You can have co-facilitation when you are taking turns to deliver even though there may be one person leading on contracting, delivery and design.
Joint facilitation â includes everything that is co-facilitation but the design is done together too.
Collaboration facilitation - All of the above including the contracting and even sourcing the work in the first place.
You need to have an open and honest conversation about whose brand you are going under in the first place.
Paul and Carolineâs collaboration followed the following stages
Meeting with the client to pitch together â this was quite organic, and they both asked questions to get a broader understanding of the brief than they might have done on their own.
Putting together a headline plan â Caroline was keen to use a particular methodology that she included. This was followed by some tweaks and discussions with the client.
Paul then took the lead on making it come to life and they used SessionLab to add structure to the plan.
They were able to ask each other probing questions to check the plan.
Prior to this piece of work, they were both on the IAF England and Wales conference planning team together and Paul also worked as part of a team of facilitators when Caroline brought in several facilitators for a piece of work.
Caroline has co-created sessions with a number of people and says this broadens your perspective, and the diversity of experience teaches you things you didnât know that you didnât know.
Creating the outline for them was okay but the client needed more detail and several iterations of the plan. It helped that two people were listening and gave clarity and confidence in what they were proposing.
Caroline and Paul were on WhatsApp, behind the scenes during the meeting with their client and this created a good flow of conversation between them. Being listened to by multiple people by the client is always a good thing.
They did the budget conversation live online with the client and they were able to use Whatsapp to do this. They had had a previous conversation about budgets and knew the suggested rate in advance.
Throughout this project, Caroline and Paul learned that:
You need a growth mindset if you are going to work in front of a peer and take the feedback. This is a good challenge to have.
Balance of clarity over how you would do it and the benefit of doing it that way needs to be as ideal as it can be for the client and this can be tough to hear that someone else may do this differently.
Because of the complexity of the piece of work it was important for them to have had a chance to recharge and share what they did and to discuss when it got really tricky.
Here's some advice for someone who is going to co-facilitate or work with another facilitator for the first time:
Do it â you are learning as you are doing.
Listen with positivity â there are different ways of doing things itâs your opportunity to share as well as experience them.
Jump in and try it.
Be mindful of what the client is asking for.
Connect with Paul Kelly: [email protected] - https://pandek.org/
Connect with Caroline Jessop: [email protected] - https://clearmeetings.co.uk/
And you can connect with your host, Pilar Orti on Twitter. https://twitter.com/PilarOrti
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