521: Terrible Predictions, "End the Fed" and Capitalism with Mises Institute President Dr. Thomas DiLorenzo

30 sep · Get Rich Education

00:43:06

President of the Mises Institute and author of “How Capitalism Saved America”, Dr. Thomas DiLorenzo joins us to uncover the current state of capitalism and if it still exists in America.

Earlier in the episode, Keith discusses the inaccuracy of economic predictions, citing examples like the 2023 recession that never happened, the negative impact of misinformed predictions on investment decisions and business growth.

Persistent housing price crash predictions have been consistently wrong despite global pandemics and higher mortgage rates.

Dr. DiLorenzo advocates for #EndTheFed to reduce inflation and restore free market principles.

Learn how voluntary exchange between buyer and seller through market prices communicates information and influences production.

Resources:

Learn more about Austrian economics and Ludwig von Mises through visiting mises.org

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:00

Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, reviewing some terrible economic predictions and why it matters to you. Then the President of the Mises Institute joins us. Does capitalism still exist in the US and what would happen if we ended the Fed, today on get rich education.

00:24

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show. Guess who? Top Selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com

Corey Coates 01:09

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:25

welcome to GRE from Syracuse, Sicily to Syracuse, New York, and across 188 nations worldwide, you're listening to one of the longest running and most listened to shows on real estate investing. This is Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, now a lot of media companies and pundits and influencers like to make predictions. Listeners like learning about predictions and by engaging just a little of that each of the past few years on one of the last episodes of the year. Here, I forecast the national home price appreciation rate for the following year, many media outlets, pundits and influencers have made terrible, just absolutely terrible, predictions about interest rates and other financial forecasts. Last year, a majority of Pro prognosticators firmly forecast six or eight Fed rate cuts this year, for example, well, we're going to have far fewer, and that's because high inflation kept hanging around. Then there's the 2023 recession that never happened, yet both Bloomberg and the economist actually published some rather ignominious headlines, as it turned out, they published these in the fall of 2022 Bloomberg, big headline was forecast for us, recession within year hits 100% in blow to Biden, well, That was false. That didn't come true. I mean, 100% that doesn't leave you any room for an out. And then also published in the fall of 2022 The Economist ran this headline why a global recession is inevitable in 2023 All right, well, they both believed in a recession, and they believed in it so deeply that it got fossilized. Well, an economic archeologist like me dug it up.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 03:31

We are going to die

Keith Weinhold 03:35

well, but I didn't risk my life like Indiana Jones did there. This archeology, it only involves some Google searches. Well, here's the thing. What's remarkable about America staving off a mammoth recession and leaving all the other g7 nations in the economic dust is the fact that merely predicting a recession often makes it come true. Just predicting one often turns a recession into a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, recession forecast headlines alone, they can spook employers from making new hires and slow down manufacturing, and it can also disillusion real estate investors from expanding their portfolios. Well, the US economy grew anyway, besides the farcical prognostications about myriad interest rate cuts in a quote, unquote definite 2023 recession that never happened. You know, there's also a third forecast that so many got wrong. And you probably know what I'm gonna say. I've brought it up before, because this hits our world, those erstwhile and well still ever present housing price crash predictions. I mean this facet of the gloom boom really ramped up from 2020 One until today, even a global pandemic, new wars and a triplicate mortgage rates couldn't stop the housing price surge and the rent surge. A lot of doomsdayers just couldn't see, or they didn't even want to see that a housing shortage would keep prices afloat. They didn't want to see it because they get more clicks when they talk about the gloom government stimulus programs also buoyed prices, and deep homeowner equity cushions will still keep prices afloat. Ever since 2021 here on the show, I've used that rationale and more to explain that home prices would keep appreciating, but that the rate of appreciation would slow down, and it has slowed down since 2021 see YouTubers tick tockers. They notoriously use woe begone housing crash headlines, because that gets more clicks and then some of the rationale behind this. The reasoning is just dreadful, like, what goes up must come down, all right? Well, this is like, why does it matter? Who cares about wrong predictions anyway? What's the point? Well, people become misinformed. People waste their time on these things and see no one loses money on dismal economic predictions. But the damage is done, because when investors don't act well, then they didn't get the gain that they should have had. Businesses didn't get the gain that they should have had when they could have made new investment and hired new employees sooner. And of course, a recession is going to happen sometime. They occur, on average, every five to six years. It is just a normal part of the business cycle will collectively these three faulty economic predictions, rate cuts, a recession and a housing price crash. I think if you bundle them all up combined, it could be as bad as one doomsday prediction about worldwide starvation or the Mayan apocalypse. Remember that the wide to K bug, the acid rain, even that the internet is just a fad that ran a buck 30 years ago. World War Three is eminent, robots overtaking humans, or how about running out of crude oil. I mean, we're definitely all supposed to have jet packs in flying cars by now, right? But yet, did anyone have the clairvoyance to predict the stock market crash of 1929 or September 11 terrorist attacks, or Trump's surprise, 2016 presidency or Bitcoin hitting 70k A while back, or the coronavirus. So really, overall, the bottom line here with predictions is that no one knows the future. Control what you can maintain equanimity, add good properties, gradually raise rent, reduce expenses, create leverage and expect inflation truly the best way to predict the future is to create it in just that way. Well is the USA capitalistic nation today. That's what we'll discuss later with this week's guest. When Chuck Todd hosted the show Meet the Press, he interviewed AOC about this. Yes, I'm talking about us. House Rep from New York, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, what she say? You

08:34

have said you are democratic socialist. Can you be a Democratic socialist and a capitalist? Well, I think it depends on your interpretation. So there are some Democratic socialists that would say, Absolutely not. There are other people that are democratic socialists that would say, I think it's possible. What are you? I think it's possible. I think you say to yourself, I'm a capitalist, but I don't say that. You know, if anything, I would say, I'm I believe in a democratic economy, but.

Keith Weinhold 09:03

okay, well, I'm not sure if that clears it up at all. And I've listened to more of that clip, and it just makes things more confusing. But I think that most people have trouble drawing a line between capitalism and neighboring economic systems. Where exactly do you draw that line? I don't know exactly where to draw it. When I think of capitalism, I think of things though, like removal of interventionist central planning and allowing the free market to run with few guardrails. And then there's an issue like labor unionization. I don't really know about something like that. This is a real estate show. I'm still forming an opinion on a topic like that. In you know, some of this gets political, and that's beyond the scope of get rich education. The Fed was created in 1913 that central planning, its central banking from 1987 to. 2006 Alan Greenspan reigned as Fed chair. Those were his years, and he became even more interventionist. And then his successor, Ben Bernanke, maybe even more so with quantitative easing and such. Let's talk about, should they end the Fed and capitalism with this week's expert guest. You very well may have heard of the late, famed Austrian American economist Ludwig von Mises today, the Mises Institute carries on his legacy, and this week's guest is none other than the President of the Mises Institute. He's also the number one best selling author of how capitalism saved America and his newer book with a title that I love, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Economics. Hey, it's great to have you here. It is. Dr Thomas DiLorenzo.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 11:00

pleased to be with you. Thanks for having me.Th

Keith Weinhold 11:02

Well, Dr DiLorenzo, for those that don't know, just tell us a bit in an overview about Austrian economics and what Ludwig von Mises stood for.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 11:02

Well, Ludwig von Mises was the preeminent critic of socialism and fascism in Europe, and in his day, he fled the Nazis literally hours before the Gestapo broke into his apartment in Geneva, because he was the preeminent critic of fascism and socialism, and he was also Jewish, and so he had to get out of town. And he miraculously ended up after wandering through Europe with his wife in New York City, and he taught at New York University for many years, until he died in 1973 and but the Austrian School of Economics is a school of thought. It has nothing to do with, necessarily, with the Government of Austria, the country of Austria, just this the founder of a man named Carl Menger happened to be from Austria, but probably the most famous or well known among Americans would be Friedrich Hayek, who won the Nobel Prize in 1970s he was a student of Ludwig von Mises and critics of interventionism, critics of socialism. We teach about free markets, of how markets actually work and how governments don't work. And that's in a nutshell, that's what it's about. And you could check out our website, mises.org, M, I, S, E, S.org, you can get a great economic education. We have a lot of free books to download. Some of them are downloaded 30 or 40,000 times a month. Still, it's even Mises old books like human action, first published in the 1960s and so you can get a great education just by reading our website.

Keith Weinhold 12:42

Well, congratulations, that's proof that you're doing an excellent job of carrying on the Mises legacy into the present day, a lot of which is championing capitalism. Do we have capitalism in the United States today?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 12:59

I was an economics professor from 40 years before I got this job as President of the Mises Institute. And I used to say we had islands of socialism in a sea of capitalism at the beginning of my career. But now I'd say it's the opposite, that we have islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism. And socialism, this data is not defined anymore as government ownership. That was, you know, about 100 years ago, the socialism. It's basically government control of industry and in addition to government ownership. So the instruments of the welfare state, the income tax and the regulatory state, is our version of socialism, or central planning, if you will. And it's the Federal Reserve the Fed, which is a government agency that orchestrates the whole thing, really, it's a big, massive central planning industry that controls, regulates basically every aspect of any kind of financial transaction imaginable. They list in their publications over 100 different functions of the Federal Reserve. It's not just monetary policy. It's a big regulatory behemoth, and so that's that's what the Fed is. That's what I think we have today. A friend of mine, Robert Higgs, a well known economic historian, says our system is what he calls participatory fascism. And fascism was a system where private enterprise was permitted, but it was so heavily regulated and regimented by the government that industry had to do what government wanted to do, not what its customers wanted it to do, so much, and a large part of our economic system is just like that, and we get to vote still, so that's where the participatory and comes in, and the pin of Robert Hinz.

Keith Weinhold 14:41

yeah, maybe at best, I can think of today's system as capitalism with guardrails on but the guardrails keep getting taller. And I think of guardrails as being, for example, regulatory agencies like the Fed in FINRA. In the FDA.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 15:01

It is the beginning of my career. You know, I studied economics and a PhD in economics, and there was a big literature on what's called regulatory capture. And it was sort of a big secret among US economic academics. There was all this research going on and how the big regulatory agencies created by the federal government in the late 19th, early 20th centuries, were captured by the industries that they were supposed to be regulating. Right? The theory was they would regulate these industries in the public's best interests. But what has happened from the very beginning is they were captured by the industries, and they benefit the industry at the expense of the public. But today, that's caught on thanks to people like Robert Kennedy Jr, frankly, has been a very popular author. He sold a gazillion copies of his book on Anthony Fauci, and in it, he explains in tremendous detail how the Food and Drug Administration was long ago captured by the pharmaceutical companies. And he's not the only one. I think that that is being more and more recognized by people outside of academic economics, like me, and that's a good thing, and that's sort of the worst example of crony capitalism. It's not real capitalism, but crony capitalism making money through government connections, rather than producing better products, cheaper products and so forth.

Keith Weinhold 16:21

I watched RFK Jr speak in person recently, and I was actually disappointed when he effectively dropped out of the upcoming presidential race. And I do want to talk more with you about the Fed shortly, but with all these regulatory agencies and how I liken them to guard rails. You know, I sort of think of it as a watchdog system that's failing. You mentioned the FDA. I know RFK Jr brought them up an awful lot, the Food and Drug Administration that are supposed to help regulate what we put inside our own bodies in our diet. But these systems are failing. We have regulatory agencies in industry, industry in regulatory agencies. I mean, look at the obesity rate. Look at all the ultra processed food that's allowed. Look at all the seed oils that are allowed in food that people actually think are healthy for them. So this system of capitalism with guardrails is failing almost everywhere you look.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 16:22

I wouldn't call it capitalism. I wouldn't use the word capitalism at all, other than crony capitalism, people can relate to that. You know, a lot of these regulatory agencies were lobbied for in the first place by industry. That while the very first one was the Interstate Commerce Commission, it was in the 1880s it was meant to regulate the railroad companies. The first president was the president of a Railroad Corporation, the head of the Interstate Commerce Commission. So talk about the fox guarding the hen house. That was from the very beginning. And so in a sense, this word capture theory of regulation, which Kennedy has used, they weren't really captured. They always were created by the government. The same is true of all the so called Public Utilities. It was the corporations, the electric power companies, the water supply companies, that lobbied for governments to give them a monopoly, a legal monopoly, in electricity, water supply and all these things that were called natural monopolies, but there was nothing natural about them. There was vigorous competition in the early 20th century in telephone, electricity, water supply, and that was all set aside by government regulation, creating monopolies. For example, in electric power, there's an economist named Walter primo who wrote a book some years ago showing that always have been several dozen cities in America that never went this way, that always allowed direct competition between electric power companies. And what do you know, better service and lower prices. As a result, they did dozens of statistical studies to demonstrate this in his book.

Keith Weinhold 18:58

Okay, well, that's a great case study. Why don't we talk about what things would look like if we took down one of these agencies? We're a real estate investing in finance show. Sometimes it's a popular meme or hashtag to say, end the Fed. What would it look like if we ended the Fed?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 19:18

Well, the Fed was created in 1913 in the same era, with all these other regulatory captured agencies were created, right? And it was created basically to cartelize and create a cartel for the banking industry to make it almost impossible to go bankrupt. They've been bailing out foolish bankers for 111 years. And of course, the biggest example was that as the crash of 08 after they they handed Goldman Sachs and other big investment banks billions of dollars. That was a direct assault on capitalism itself, because capitalism, as you know, is a profit and loss system. It's not a I keep the profits. You pay for my losses system. You're the taxpayer. But that's what happened with that. So the Fed would. Fall into that the Fed is actually the fourth central bank in America. We had three other ones. First one was called Bank of North America. Its currency was so unreliable, nobody trusted it went out of business in a year and a half. And then we created something called the Bank of the United States in 1791 same thing. It created boom and bust cycles, high unemployment, price inflation, corrupted politics. It was defunded after 20 years, and then it was brought back to fund the debt from the war of 1812 and so we had a Second Bank of the United States. It did the same thing, boom and bust cycles, price inflation, corrupted politics. Benefited special interest, but not the general interest, and President Andrew Jackson defunded it, and so we went without a central bank from roughly 1840 until 1913 so we've had experience of that. And what we had been was competing currencies, and that would be sort of a stepping stone. If we got rid of the fed, we wouldn't have to abolish the Fed altogether. We could amend the charter to the Fed to say you're no longer permitted to buy bonds. Can't buy government bonds anymore. That's how they inflate the money supply, right? By buying bonds. That's totally unnecessary. And we could just just that would be a great step forward, and we would sort of whittle away our $80 trillion debt, if you count again upon count the unfunded liabilities of the federal government,

Keith Weinhold 21:26

if we did end the Fed, what would the price of money? Which are interest rates really look like? Would a new market rate be sent by individuals and companies on the free market like Bank of America, with a customer or borrower settling on an interest rate that they both agree to.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 21:44

You know, the Fed uses sort of Soviet style economics, price control. The economists and are all getting all over Kamala Harris for recommendations for price controls on rent and other things. Well, the Fed price control. They control the price of money. That's what they do. And so there's a big, kind of a comical thing that here you have all these economists, if they were to teach economics in the week one, they would teach about the bad effects of price controls, and then they get a job at the Fed, and they spend their whole career enforcing price controls on money, and the interest rate would be determined by supply and demand for credit and inflationary expectations. That's what the market does. And you wouldn't have these bureaucrats at the Fed tinkering around with interest rates, creating tremendous arbitrage opportunities for Wall Street investors. With all the movements and interest rates, you'd have much more stable interest rates, and and you wouldn't have this ridiculous system where the Fed says we need to always have forever at least 2% inflation. And of course, they never meet that, and they lie about it. I don't believe for one minute that the price inflation right now is 3% or under 3% that's ridiculous, right? And so things should be getting cheaper. Everything should be getting cheaper because of all the technology we have. My first PC I bought in the early 80s for $4,000 and it was a piece of prehistoric junk compared to my cell phone today, that almost for free. Almost everything should be like that agriculture, but the reason it isn't is the Fed keeps pumping so much money in circulation, that it pumps up the demand for goods and services, and that's what creates price inflation. And by its own admission, that's what it does, even though it's charter, it's original charter said they're supposed to fight inflation. All of a sudden, about 10 years ago or so, they announced, south of blue, we always have to have at least 2% inflation. Congress had nothing to do with that. President had nothing to do with that, and the people of America had nothing to do with that. It was dictators like Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke that just make these announcements. And where does that come from when we live under the dictatorship of the Fed? And of course, the people who are hurt the most by the Fed are elderly people are living on relatively fixed incomes and are forced to become Wall Street speculators they want to make any more money other than their fixed income, where, you know, during the days of Greenspan, when they're pursuing zero interest rates, maybe the mortgage industry like that, but the people on retirement income were starving as a result of that. So it's been sort of an economic war on the retired population.

Keith Weinhold 24:24

Things should get faster and cheaper to produce, like you said. However, there's definitely one thing that's not getting faster to produce, that's housing build times. Housing build times have actually gone up, which is sort of another discussion unto itself. But we talk about the Fed and then setting prices. People wouldn't stand for setting the price or having price controls on oil or lumber or bananas, but yet we set the price of money itself. People have just become accustomed to that. Yet it's that money itself that we use to buy oil and lumber and bananas the fed with that dual mandate of stable prices and maximum employment. If we did abolish the Fed, what would happen to the rate of inflation?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 25:12

Well, we would have less inflation. It's supposed to what we replace it with. There's some system would be a replacement, but we wouldn't have the boom and bust cycles that we have now. There's been research in the past 100 years or so of the Fed, and what the academic researchers have concluded is that the Fed has made the economy in general more unstable than it was before we had the Fed and price inflation. That's a joke. The dollar is worth maybe three cents of what it was in the year 1913 right when the Fed was created. So it has failed on all accounts. And so if we got rid of it, we would reverse that. The idea would be to start out with a competing money system. And I'll tell you a quick story is, you know the word Dixie from the south, you know land of Dixie that was named after a currency by a New Orleans bank called the Dix D, I x 10 in French, and it was 100% gold reserve. It was backed by something real and valuable, and it was so popular as even used in Minnesota. But that's why the whole south, the states in the South, were using this currency, because it was so reliable. But during the Civil War, the national currency acts imposed taxes on the competing currencies and taxed them out of business and established the greenback dollar, as it was called, as the Monopoly money of the country. We didn't get a central bank during the Civil War, but we got that. And so that's the kind of system that we would have. Friedrich Hayek wrote a whole book about this, about competing currencies, called the denationalization of money. He poses that as a good stepping stone to a freer market in money. And like you said, Money is the most important thing. Is most more important than bananas or shoes or any of these other things that we might have price controls on.

Keith Weinhold 27:01

All right, so we're talking about the case for ending the Fed. What is the counter argument? I mean, other than the government wanting control, is there a valid, or any academic counter argument for keeping the Fed in place?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 27:16

The Fed has an army. I call it the Fed's Praetorian Guard of academics. There was a research article published by an economist named Larry White at George Mason University several years ago, and he found that 75% of all the articles in the academic journals regarding money, monetary policy and so forth, are by people who are basically paid by the Fed, one way or the other. Either they're fed economists, or they've been invited to a conference by the Fed, or they're an intern some relationship with the Fed. The late Milton Friedman once said, If you want a career as a monetary economist, it's not a good idea to criticize the biggest employer in your field. So there's a lot of nonsense about that. And so yes, you'll have all sorts of rationales, but it basically comes down to this, that we think we can do central planning better than the Russians did under communism, because the Fed is basically an economic central planning agency, and there's no reason to believe Americans are better at it than the Russians or anybody else. And it basically comes down to that, you know, studying the past 111 years that's showing Well, yeah, they've been trying that for 111 years. They've made the economy more unstable, and they have failed miserably to control inflation. And why should we give them another chance? Why should we continue along this road? We shouldn't So, yeah, there'll be all kind of excuses the late Murray Rothbard, who was one of the founders of the Mises, who once answered this question by saying, It's as though people said, Well, say the government always made shoes. 100 years ago they took over the shoe industry. People would be saying, who will make shoes if the government doesn't make shoes? The government has always made shoes, right? But the government has not always monopolized the money supply. It's only like I said, we abolished three Feds in our history. In American history, they weren't called the Fed, but they were central banks. And the Fed is called a central bank, and we've done that three times. We've abolished more central banks than we have kept in American history.

Keith Weinhold 29:17

We're talking with Dr Thomas D Lorenzo. He is the president of the Mises Institute. About, is there really any capitalism left more when we come back, this is Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group and MLS 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at RidgeLendingGroup.com, that's Ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text family to 66866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family to 66866.

Kristen Tate 31:11

This is author Kristen Tate. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and Don't quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 31:27

welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with Dr Thomas DiLorenzo. He is the president of the Mises Institute. You can learn more about them @mises.org and Dr DiLorenzo. Frederick Hayek, an economist that you mentioned very well known and a student of Ludwig von Mises, he believed that prices are a communication mechanism between a buyer and a seller. Say, for example, there's a new style of single family rental home that everyone wants to rent. So therefore the rent price goes up when other builders see that the rent price goes up, that brings in more builder competition, and with more competition, that brings rent prices down, and then the world is filled with abundant housing, rather than a scarcity of housing. So that's how I think of a free market system within capitalism as working, as defined through Hayek.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 32:22

You know, the consumer is king. Von Mises once wrote about the same point where he said that people mistakenly believe that it's the bankers and the CEOs and the businesses that control what gets produced and so forth, but it's really the consumer. You build a housing development then people don't want those houses. You'll find out real fast who's in charge. It's not the mortgage brokers. It's not the bankers. It's not you, it's the consumer. That's the free market system, and if you do without it, and not using the free market system, whether it's for money or anything else, is kind of like trying to find your way around a strange city with no street signs, and the prices are the street signs that tell us what to do, exactly like you said, if there's strong demand for a certain type of housing, that'll drive the price up, and that'll tell the home builders, we can make money building more of these. And they will do that. Nobody tells them. The Chairman of the Fed doesn't have to tell them that the President doesn't have to tell them that Congress doesn't have to issue a declaration telling them to do that. That was the Soviet Union where they tried that. And that's the great thing about the market, is that the consumer can tell the richest man in the world like Elon Musk, go play in the traffic. Elon Musk, if they don't like his cars or whatever he's producing, even though he's the richest man in the world. And he understands that he's a pretty successful businessman, I would say, and so so he understands that the consumer is his boss.

Keith Weinhold 33:53

Well, what else do we need to know? You have published a lot of celebrated books, from how capitalism saved America to the politically incorrect guide to economics. What else might a real estate investor or an economic enthusiast need to know today? Oh,

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 34:10

well, I think everybody needs to be their own economist. You can listen to the talking heads on TV and on podcasts and all that, but educate yourself and become your own economist. Because a lot of the people on TV, as you might see on the news, they have an ax to grind, or they have a sort of a hidden financial interest beyond what they're saying, Be your own economist. And that's why I'm selling my website, which is everything on it, it's for free, mises.org, and there are quite a few others too. You don't have to go to school, you don't have to get a degree. You can get a good economic education, for example, on money. We're in the middle of giving away 100,000 copies of a book called What has government done to our money. I'm Murray rothbar. You go to our website, scroll down to the bottom, and you can fill out a form online, and we'll send you free books and. You can educate yourself that way. And so just in general, I think that's what people need to do. I taught MBA students for many years who are people in their 30s or maybe even early 40s, who didn't have economics degrees, but they were really into it, and for the first time in their careers, they decided maybe I should understand how the economic world that I live in and work in every day operates rather than going through your life and your career without you. Might know all about real estate sales, but it's also useful to know about the economy in general and how things work.

Keith Weinhold 35:35

And when one becomes their own economic student and they take that on, I think it's important for them, like you touched on to not just consume the economic news that's on CNBC or other major media, because that doesn't really tell you how to create wealth. It might inform you, but it doesn't necessarily tell you how to take action. For example, on this show an educational channel, you might learn about a story about rising inflation like we had starting three or four years ago. And here we talk about how, okay, if inflation is going to be a long term economic force, you may or may not like what the Fed is doing, but rather than save money, borrow money, outsource that debt service to the tenant on a cash flowing asset like a single family home or an apartment building. And that inflation that you're learning about on CNBC will actually benefit you and debase your debt with prudent leverage on a property, for example, so not just consuming the news, but learning and educating yourself and acting.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 36:34

Oh, sure, well It just so happens that last night, I was talking to a friend of mine who's a real estate professional. They're all talking about, Oh, are we going to have a slight drop in interest rates? And I reminded them that there will be a part of the market if they see it, if we do have a slight drop in interest rates, we'll look at that and say, well, maybe this is a new trend. And so I'll sit back and I'll wait. I'm not going to buy now, because I think the interest rates are going to go down even further in the next six months there were, there would be some segment of the market that thinks that way. And so that's just one little thing. Another thing I would mention is that one of the basic tenets of free market economics is that voluntary trade is mutually beneficial. People buy and sell from each other, because both sides benefit. And that's very important for any business person to keep in mind as you structure business deals, because you know about business deal that is successful is basically, I will give you what you want, and you give me what I want, and we're both happy. And that's that's one of the main tenets of how the market works. Voluntary exchange is mutually beneficial. So think about how to make it mutually beneficial, and you'll succeed in making a deal.

Keith Weinhold 37:45

Well, it's been an excellent discussion on Is there any capitalism left, and how would it look like if we turned the course and created more capitalism here in the United States? It's been great having you on the show.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 37:58

Thank you.

Keith Weinhold 38:05

Yeah , again, Learn more @mises.org or look up books by Dr Thomas DiLorenzo. His viewpoint is that there are now merely islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism where those conditions were inverted last century. We've got to end the complex between the government and corporations that these watchdogs are basically powerless when the fox is guarding the henhouse. Dr dilorezzo says we could change the Fed charter so that they couldn't buy bonds, which should reduce inflation. So he does offer a way forward there, a solution. In capitalism, he consumer is king. This is a good thing. You yourself are empowered because you get to vote with your dollars. So therefore what you buy more of society will see and make more of but a prosperous, progressive economy that should be able to produce goods and services that are constantly cheaper because they get more and more efficient to make with innovation, but centrally planned inflation makes them more expensive, at least in dollar denominated terms. So progress should make things cheaper? Well, then everything should take fewer dollars to buy, homes, oil, bananas, grapes, but it doesn't, and it won't anytime soon, like I mentioned in the interview, there single family build times are taking even longer. That's not more efficient, and they're sure not getting cheaper. In fact, the National Association of Home Builders tells us that from permit to completion in 2015 it took 7.2 months to build a single family home. By 2019 it was up to 8.1 months and then. Last year, the time required to build a single family home from permit to completion was 10.1 months. That's not the side of an efficient economy. So basically, therefore, in the last eight, nine years, the time to build a home has gone from 7.2 months up to 10.1 months. That is a drastic increase in a short period of time. Just amazing. And we now have data after covid as well, broken down by region. The longest build time, by the way, is in New England, where it is 13.9 months to build a home from permit to completion. Gosh, such inefficiency. But despite all that stuff that you might find discouraging like that, I want to go out on a good news note here some encouraging sentiment for you, if you champion free markets, then invest in us rental property down the road, there is no centrally controlled ceiling on what you can sell your property for. Most places don't have rent control. In fact, there's been no federal rent control on private property since World War Two. And somewhat ironically, you benefit. You actually benefit from government backed loans at these low fixed rates, and now they're moderate fixed rates. You often get these through Fannie Freddie or the FHA. See you benefit from that particular government backing as a savvy borrower for rental property. And on top of this, you use the GRE inflation triple crown to flip over that not so capitalistic inflationary force. You flip it upside down and use it to your benefit, profiting fantastically from inflation. So you know how to take the situation you're given and use it to your advantage rather than your detriment. Big thanks to Dr Thomas DiLorenzo today, longtime econ professor and current Mises Institute president, more ways to build Real Estate Wealth coming up here for you on the show in future weeks, as always, with the dash of economics and wealth mindset. Until then, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

42:28

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,

Keith Weinhold 42:56

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.

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528: Real Estate is Up 490% Over the Last 40 Years
18 nov· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses trends in the housing market, including the rising average age of first-time homebuyers and the mix of markets seeing price increases versus declines. He analyzes the potential impact of the incoming presidential administration's policies on real estate, particularly around inflation and interest rates. He is joined by Investor, Co-Founder and CEO of Family Freedom Investments, Dani Lynn Robison to highlight high-yield investment opportunities available, including up to 10% returns.

Home prices have fallen in six US cities.

The average age of a first time homebuyer rose to an astounding 38 years old.

Discover the top 10 states with the highest home price appreciation over the last 40 years.

The Trump Effect.

To learn more about Freedom Family Investments.

You get paid first: Text FAMILY to 66866.

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

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Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, home prices have fallen in six US cities. The average age of a first time home buyer soars to an astounding 38 years old. Then we take the long view breaking down how real estate is up a jaw dropping 490% since 1984 the Trump effect on real estate, then how you can earn an eight to 10% cash on cash return, hassle free. All today on Get Rich Education.

Speaker 1 0:36

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:21

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:38

Welcome to GRE from St Louis, Missouri, to say Luis, Obispo, California, and across 188 nations worldwide, even Uzbekistan. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are inside. Get rich education every week. It's the show where I pretend that I'm not wearing pajama pants while here on the microphone. Hey, if you want to get rich, then focus on one thing. If you're already there and want to stay rich, then that's the point in which you want to diversify, because then you're already living your Daydream and you don't want to lose it. We'll talk about President elect Trump later in this week's show, and what it means for the future of the real estate market.

Donald Trump 2:20

Thank you verymuch. So this outfit you know is when they when he called us all garbage. How stupid. What a stupid word. That blows deplorable away. Don't you think.

Keith Weinhold 2:21

well, our content will surely be more substantive than that funny piece I expect to host Donald Trump here on the show for you in the future. After all, let's not forget, before politics, he was most known as a real estate investor, but he's going to be busy for the next four years, so it could be a while until you see him here, before we get to the Trump effect. Last week, the NAR released their annual report. It's called the profile of buyers and sellers. My gosh, what a surprise when it revealed that the average age of a first time homebuyer rose to an astounding 38 years old. 38 I mean, we're not talking about a person that's like, severely underemployed or something. We're talking about the average here. So for many, I mean, they are still a renter into their 40s. That is common now. I mean, at this rate, pretty soon, are Americans going to become homeowners once they hit retirement? I mean, my gosh, is that where we're headed? Or when one looks at their rites of passage, the milestones in their lives, will one achieve grand parenthood before buying a first home? Where are we going here? Not only is 38 years old, the all time high, as you might have expected, but that is up from age 35 just last year, amazing. And like I've discussed before, of course, the major reason that that age is up is due to lower affordability, and that's from higher prices and higher interest rates. The housing shortage is another factor here too. And all right, if that's not enough, the average age of us homebuyers, okay, this is just overall homebuyers, first timers and everyone else. That was 49 last year, and this spiked up to 56 this year. 56 and now back to first time homebuyers, the average income has also hit an all time high, $97,000 that is the average income of a first time homebuyer now. So what's important to keep in mind here is people are going to have to rent longer they're already. Renting longer. And some will choose to rent longer as a preference, and for others, they must rent longer. You can be the one to provide them with this rental housing, not the big hedge funds doing it, not private equity doing it. Invest in real estate. These trends mean higher occupancy rates and upward pressure on the rent amounts that you're going to be able to charge over time. I mean, this is demand, demand, demand for rental housing. They wish that they could buy that $300,000 starter home in the Midwest in southeast, but they have a hard time affording the down payments and qualifying for the loan they're after so you can rent it to them and be a profiteer longer. However, right now, there are six US cities where home prices are falling and now these are pretty mild corrections, but let's see if you can guess what the top reason for this is the number one reason about why these prices are falling among the nation's 50 largest metros. These are the six cities that have seen price corrections. New Orleans leads the way down the most down 4% Austin, Texas is also down almost 4% San Antonio down 2.7%, Tampa, Florida down one half of 1% Jacksonville down three tenths of 1% and then finally, Dallas, Texas, also down three tenths of 1% and in fact, I am visiting three of those six cities during a 10 day stretch that I'm on right here, right now. Over the weekend, I was in San Antonio, Texas. Today, the mobile GRE studio is in effect again, as I'm bringing you today's show from here in Austin, Texas, where I'm spending four days, and then I'll be in New Orleans in two days here. Well, the top reason for these falling home prices is in a word, supply. In fact, it's an oversupply in a lot of these six cities. And again, those six are New Orleans, Austin, San Antonio, Tampa, Jacksonville and Dallas. In fact, here in Austin, they are a, basically a national leader in over supply, they simply overbuilt, and it's going to take some time to absorb all that they've built. In fact, due to overbuilding, you've even got rents falling here in Austin, and I may look at some vacant apartments while I'm here to get the temperature of the market. Now, for some context, understand, though, that I spotlighted six falling markets out of the 50. All right, well, what about the other ones? Yes, that indeed means that 44, of America's 50 largest metros have seen year over year price increases, and one big reason for that is that many metros have housing shortages. Shortages are the norm, and by the way, all these figures are per the Zillow home index. In fact, a number of markets are up over 4% 5% 6% year over year, and the leaders all have seven to 8% year over year. Home price appreciation, they are San Jose, Hartford, New York City and Providence and a lot of the appreciation leaders are, yep, under supply, the opposite of what I'm seeing here in Austin.

Now, before I get to the headline of this week's episode, how national home prices were up a breathtaking 490% over the last 40 years. Let's talk about the Trump effect. It's still two months before Donald John Trump will be sworn in as a 47th president of the United States, and like macroeconomist Richard Duncan and I touched on on last week's show, Trump loves tariffs. Everyone knows that, and a tariff is like a tax on imported goods. Now follow along here. Higher tariffs mean then higher consumer prices, because the company or manufacturer has to pass that cost along to you. Higher prices means inflation. Higher inflation means that the Fed tends to keep interest rates higher longer in order to combat that inflation. So a Trump presidency means higher inflation in interest rates. Again, yes, at least those two things are correlated. And now think this through. Do you sense some cognitive dissonance here, under Trump's first term, back from 2017 to 2021 he wanted lower interest rates, and Trump was like highly vocal about how he wanted Jerome Powell to keep rates low in order to keep the economy healthy so the higher rates that Trump Tariffs are expected to bring then versus the lower rates that Trump wants is dissonant, incongruent, not in harmony. Bitcoin surged on the news of a second Trump presidency, because Trump is pro crypto. No see treasury yields, they also spiked upon the Trump presidency news just two weeks ago, I explained here on the show why higher inflation means higher treasury yields, which means higher mortgage rates. And it turned out that that was quite a timely explanation. The Trump election can mean a lower tax environment. We are hopeful that Trump will extend bonus depreciation, a really nice tax break for real estate investors. We could see some federal lands repurposed for housing construction. Trump said that he wanted to do that in order to add more housing supply. And no, don't worry. I don't think they're going to shut down and pave over Yellowstone and plug Old Faithful Geyser or anything like that. Okay, there's a lot of federal land that's, I guess, less remarkable, land that's being grazed on, and land suitable for more housing. Look for more move to loosen up zoning and regulation, and that's something where you'll find bipartisan agreement we've got to build to address the housing crisis. I mean, Trump has actually called zoning a killer, like he used that phrase you might see Trump extend the opportunity Zone program as well. The result could be more apartment construction in some of these blighted or low income urban areas, no matter what, and no matter who our president would have been. I mean, you're still gonna see housing supplies struggle to keep up with demand, because you just can't build fast enough. And you know something here, you never really know the future. People always want to speculate about the future that can be worth talking about. And you know that makes people think that they have the answer, but they're often wrong about one thing leading to the other, like how tariffs will end up meaning higher mortgage rates. I mean, you just don't know that for sure. Policies can change. Promises might not get followed up on, Black Swans can interject, and interest rates are one thing that are just wildly difficult to predict. And if you ever want to make another person look wrong, like if you desire to do that, here's all you need to do, ask them where interest rates are going to go in the future, and make them put that in writing. Okay, that is a guaranteed way to make somebody wrong. So everyone wants to know the future, but you've got to think through this in terms of probabilities and not certainties.

Now here's something encouraging, California voters, they shot down rent control expansion, though you might live in California, we are not exactly passionate about investing in California property for pretty well documented reasons, but sometimes things that start in New York and California in those particular states, they can expand to the nation. So it's worth paying attention to some of these things, and California voters resoundly rejected what is known as Proposition 33 rent control expansion. Almost 62% voted no on that. So you've got bipartisan alignment on how rent control backfires on renters in this was the third time in six years that California voters shot down rent control expansion. Great. That is great because rent control, it's not good for you, the investor, long term. It's not even good for the tenant, and it's certainly not good for the community either. I mean, they are collectivist state price controls.

Well, let's look at another place where prices are not being controlled for sure, and that is the fact that overall, US home prices have appreciated a whopping 490% since 1984 Yes, 490% over the last 40 years, therefore almost a 5x price increase. Let's break this down, and then I'll tell you what it means for the future too. This is the shift in US home prices from August 1984 to August 2024 so therefore it starts from mid Reagan presidency, when the median home price was $81,000 at that time. Okay, so this is our starting point, 1984 that's the year Ghostbusters hit movie theaters. Kareem Abdul Jabbar broke the all time NBA scoring record. And shows that debuted on television that year were Miami, Vice night, court, punky, Brewster. Are Charles in Charge? Have you heard of these shows? Another TV oh boy, another TV show that debuted in 1984 Well, Chase, are you ready for this? Let me give you a hint, Temple University. And how about jello? Pudding pops? Yes, I'm talking about the Cosby Show, which just feels kind of different to talk about anymore, ever since Bill Cosby's illicit misconduct there. And no, we are not going to play a snippet of the Cosby Show theme music. Please don't play it. You know, we totally do something like that here, but we're not this time. Okay? Well, with home prices surging and astounding 490% since that year, 1984 Okay, let's break down the areas that have appreciated the most and least and see what that means. And you might remember that in our newsletter, I sent you this map that shows the level of each individual state's 40 year price search. Oh, this is great. It's just the best real estate map I've seen in a while. What it shows is that coastal states are where home prices have risen the most. In general, the top 10 in appreciation in order are Washington State up 810% yes, that's more than 8x in the last 40 years. The next highest home appreciation over the last four decades in order is Oregon, Rhode Island, California, and then it's Hawaii, Montana, Massachusetts, Maine, Idaho. And 10th is Utah, all right. Well, why have coastal states had this higher real estate run up over time? Well, it's where building constraints exist that limits the housing supply. That's both geographic constraints, like, for example, the ocean's edge literally limits build space there. Well, the coasts are also where you tend to have more building regulation. Coasts are where incomes have risen the most those residents can afford more for housing. So home prices are then higher. I mean, just look at the leader Washington state. That's where you've got the headquarters for Amazon, Microsoft, Costco, Boeing, Starbucks, Expedia and more. They're all there now, taxes, though, they do tend to be highest in coastal states as well, so you're paying more for property, and you're also paying more in all types of taxes in a lot of cases. And as we know, rental properties usually don't work as well on the coasts, coastal rents haven't risen as much as home prices, and these places, they tend to have those laws and regulations that often favor tenants over landlords. And if you're looking at the map here like I am, you're going to note that some Rocky Mountain states have flexed their appreciation muscles as well. Now, Tennessee and the Texas triangle, they kind of decided to join the appreciation party fashionably late, as you look over 40 years. Yes, Tennessee and Texas, they really only started their big appreciation climb about a decade ago. All right, so those are some of the big winners every year since Punky Brewster debuted on television. Well, with today's rise of remote work and lower home affordability, the nation's interior, that's what looks increasingly desirable for property ownership the Midwest, the Great Plains, parts of the south and parts of the inland northeast. That makes these areas look like comparative deals where prices haven't wildly run up over the decades. And though you hear about return to Office policies, because a few major companies announce these return to Office policies. I mean, remote work is still up fully 15% year over year, and housing preferences are shifting as employees look to suburban Metro outskirts for more affordable homes so they're freed from the need to factor in these lengthy commutes in their lives like they had to previously. Now, among states that don't have strong in migration, one that could really shine is a place like Ohio. Ohio has appreciated less than most states still at 334% over the past four decades. Again, 490% is The National number. Ohio boasts tons of diverse industry, a low cost of living. They've got the seventh highest population in the nation. They have a stable population count for rental property owners. It has strong laws favoring landlords and Ohio. Is just a day's drive from half of North America's population. All right, so a smart listener like you is probably asking yourself a question right now, like, Okay, how does this 40 year stretches 490% rise in national home prices compare to inflation, and how does it compare to incomes? Over this time there's been 201% overall inflation and us, median household incomes have risen 260% and yeah, that 201% inflation number is suspect, just like most any inflation figure is inflation could certainly be higher than that, because most inflation measures likely understate the true diminished purchasing power of your dollar, and see the 490% rise. Although it sounds like a staggering number, and it still kind of is. It's also like, well, of course, it takes almost five times as many dollars to buy a home today, because each dollar's value is way down. What else has changed in the last 40 years? Well, houses are larger now than they were then. The median home size has grown 150% since 1980 and at the same time, the family size is smaller, fewer people live in each home, so everyone has more space. And I discussed those types of things in detail with you before, so I won't get into all of that again. Today's homes have better amenities too. So really, the point is, if you are paying more on an inflation adjusted basis, you are getting more and it's also more likely that two parents are working today rather than one, in order to make those payments more affordable. And that fact right there that is not a great lifestyle outcome. Another way to say it is that it takes two to afford a home today rather than one. But yet, hey, that is society. All right. So with that understanding, let's look at the future. I completely believe that real estate values can soar another 490% over the next 40 years. I mean, even 600 or 700% is not out of the question, and there are a lot of reasons for this. I mean, chiefly, we're starting from a base here of a low housing supply, and we've got strong demographic demand, and we can almost certainly expect more monetary inflation the next four decades. The inflation rate is the one thing that nobody knows. 40 years ago, mortgage rates were 14% today, they're only at about half of that level. And see today's median home price of over 400k like that figure would have seemed unfathomable to people back in 1984 but indeed, the price nearly 5x So similarly, another 490% or about 5x again, means that it is completely fathomable for the median us home to cost $2 million in another 40 years. That's about 5x of today's prices. And although that might sound unrealistic Now, that sounds just as unrealistic as today's price did to anyone from 1984 so really a super interesting way to think about home price appreciation. There, you might even make the case that home values, not prices, home values, they're not up that much at all. I mean, most of that is just that prices have adjusted for inflation, the value is about the same, although I'd still say that the value is up somewhat. So really, that's my thought there, and I duly regret bringing Bill Cosby into this whole thing. I ruined it.

I've been coming to you here from Austin, Texas, where I've been checking out the real estate market. I've got more for you straight ahead. It is a really profitable idea. I'm Keith Weinhold. There will only ever be one episode, 528, of the GRE podcast, and you're listening to it,

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Robert Kiyosaki 26:05

this Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Author Robert Kiyosaki, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold,and there is I respect Keith, He's a very strong, smart, bright young man.

Keith Weinhold 26:25

Welcome back to GRE. We are grateful to have on the show today, the co founder and CEO of the whole operation, Freedom family Investments. They are seven, soon to be eight. I just learned real estate centric companies based in Centerville, Ohio. The other co founder is her husband, Flip, whom you've heard on the show before. Hey, it's terrific to have back. Danni-Lynn Robinson,

Dani-Lynn Robison 26:50

thank you so much, Keith. I love talking to you.

Keith Weinhold 26:54

It's the same here. You've been in real estate since 2008 and one of the things that you do is you have this perfect track record of always returning capital to your individual private investors, loans that they make to you, and paying 100% of the returns as promised, even if you yourselves end up losing money on a particular deal. And in fact, you the listener, you probably heard me talk about how I personally participate for a high yield return with them myself, with Danny Lynn's company backing me. You've heard that ad near the middle of GRE episodes, and you yourself can do this too. Individual investors can get a high yielding return, and it's paid to you as cash. So Danny Lynn, tell us about how it works. Generally.

Dani-Lynn Robison 27:40

I love that you started off with that particular statement, because I will tell you that every time I've been on a podcast of yours, the number one thing I hear when people get on the phone was you said on that podcast that even if you lose money, that I still get my return. And I have never heard of that before, so tell me more. So that was a perfect lead in because I think that what we're trying to do is just do a very good job of serving the people who help us build so as you said, we're on company number seven. We're building company number eight. And the reason that we've gotten to the stage that we are today is because we've had private lenders and people who invest in our syndication, our Master notes and our funds program, that investment has allowed us to buy properties, flip properties, buy apartments, flip apartments, and allowed them to get a return at the same time. And I've talked about the fact that we do volume as we've grown, we'll do 10 deals in any given month, and maybe one or two of them are like we find something, you know, in the wall that we didn't expect. Maybe we walk in and the past tenant left it in shambles and caused more damage to the property than we anticipated when we first went in. That's the nature of real estate, and that's the risk you take when you're an active real estate investor. So we knew when we were building our businesses that if we just did volume, that was going to happen, and we weren't going to run away from that fact, or take risk upon us or our investors by not mitigating it, by not doing volume. So you'll see situations where somebody does one flip a month, and that happens to them, and it's catastrophic when you're doing 10, and it happens which it will then you know that the other eight are going to bring the profit in. And so that it is easy for us to say, Thank you, Keith, for investing in us. This particular deal. We didn't lose any money on, but these eight we made a lot of money on, and that ensures that we can always pay you back in full on time, even if we lost money on a deal. And I think when that is explained to people on the phone, they start understanding why we can pay back everything as promised, even if we lose money, because we are still profitable as a company. And so that process of doing volume and having people. People trust us with their funds. As we've grown, has allowed us to get to Company Number eight, because, as we talked about right before we press record, one of the best things for us, Flip says, I love being Santa Claus. And Santa Claus is when you get that email or that check in the bank account that says, I just made money and I didn't have to do anything. I just partnered with Flip, Danny and the freedom team to do what they do already. I provided the money. They did the work. We all won together.

Keith Weinhold 30:29

Why does no real estate rehabber ever find gold bars behind a wallwhen they go in in order to turn over a property? Right? It's usually, you know, evidence of a leak or something bad, usually not something good going on back there. But yes, you do this volume across all these companies. So therefore, when you do find a leak behind a wall, and that particular deal didn't work out for a 100k rehab home, it sure can't bring down the entire operation. Danny Lynn, I've invested with you in your private money lending program for years now, and just been very open with my audience. I've let them know that I've been receiving an 8% return from you paid in cash. But one reason I'm having you back now to help our audience is because you now offer yields up to 10% so even better than when I got in. So tell us about that.

Dani-Lynn Robison 31:24

So we are always having conversations with our investors about what's going on in their investing journey, what are they looking for, and we want to create those win wins. And right now, with everything that's going on in the market, what we learned is liquidity is one of the most important pieces, because there's here, there's some uncertainty, and people want to invest. They don't want their money sitting idle and losing, having an eroding to inflation. They want to put it to work, but they want to have access to it. And so we have been changing and tweaking our programs to meet the needs of our investors, and making sure that we are buying properties that can then have that arbitrage to get us the profit we need to pay back our investors, but while we're still making a profit many times right now in this market, that does mean we're buying multi family properties, because there's so many different advantages to multi family properties, it does take a lot of underwriting to get there, but that's where, for the last, I would say, six to 12 months, we've been really focused in on that in order to increase the returns and have everybody just creating that win win.

Keith Weinhold 32:32

I'm really glad that you talked about multifamily properties, because I've talked with the audience about how the sector is beaten down. In a lot of places, you can get 30% discounts on multifamily apartment buildings, and we know that the long term demand is going to be there for occupancy in apartment buildings. Demographics is destiny, and we talk about this timing of having you on and now you're offering up to 8% discussing this, say, two and a half years ago, I don't think the timing was as good. That's when CPI inflation peaked at 9.1% so you really weren't getting a real yield. You need to subtract inflation from your yield in order to get a real return. And now you're getting a substantial real return. Since inflation is near 2% top online savings accounts, those top interest rates, they are falling with each successive federal funds rate cut, and most expect that those yields are going to continue to fall. People invest in bonds all the time, but the yield on the 10 year T note has been around 4% or quite a while. You don't have to settle for yields like that. And Danny Lynn, I love that you brought up the word arbitrage. This should be an arbitrage play for you the listener. But of course, for Danny Lynn, it needs to be an arbitrage play as well, because if she and her family of companies over there are paying you a yield of up to 10% they need to make arbitrage ontop of that themselves. And if you're a new listener, you might be skeptical of how you could reliably do that in real estate, but when you understand that real estate pays up to five ways at the same time and 30 to 40% total rate of returns without inordinate risk, are not dream land, the reality you can begin to understand the arbitrage. But Danny Lynn, can you tell us a bit more about how you do create that arbitrage to reliably pay a return of up to 10% How do you yourselves beat that in there?

Dani-Lynn Robison 34:26

That's where it comes down to multifamily. For us, the single family market has slowed down a little bit, and so multifamily is enabling us to do bigger things. But on a long term basis, we've built our companies up enough to a point where we are businesses are producing the cash flow that we need so we can pay our investors a higher return using the cash flow of the properties, and our long term wealth as a company is coming from down the line of the appreciation, especially in multifamily, the forced appreciation, and that refinance and that when. Fall. So everything that we structure is preferred returns, meaning we always pay our investors first and we come last when it comes to multifamily, those five ways start to compound over time, and that's what we really win, is because we know we're waiting, but we're waiting for a big return in 3,5,7, years. Sometimes we're waiting 1020, years, and our investors in the meantime are getting a really nice return better than they can in most other places, because we're willing to forfeit our current returns in this scenario, because our other businesses are producing the cash flow that we need.

Keith Weinhold 35:38

That's terrific. Tell us a bit about the program details. Then how is this note? Right? Because the investor, as soon as they make an investment with you, they do hold on to a note. Just tell us about how that's secured before we get into the details.

Dani-Lynn Robison 35:53

So it depends on the investment opportunity. Some investments are going to be secured by a note by the property. Some investments are going to be secured by a note by the business. Some investments are going to be secured by the fund itself. You're an actual owner, like or the syndication, an actual owner of what that fund is participating in. So every piece of security is a little bit different. So when you jump on the phone with us. We're asking a lot of questions, and the number one question that we ask is, what are your goals? Because if you do want liquidity, we know exactly where you're going to go. And some people are wanting liquidity for peace of mind, so that they can earn a higher return, but have access to the cash if they want it. Some investors are saying, Hey, I know there's about to be a lot of opportunities. So I want my money earning for me, but I want to be able to grab it, to be able to invest in these future opportunities that are going to come my way when I want access to the capital for that reason. Then there's other investors that are set it and forget it. Look. I like you guys. I trust you guys. I've vetted you guys. I've done my due diligence on you guys. I want to sit my money in there for three, five years. Some want tax benefits. And so what we do is we have, like, this table of investments with like, little check boxes. And as people tell us their goals, we're like, okay, they're there. They're by the end of the conversation, we're saying, here's the two investment opportunities we think fits what you like and what is going to meet your needs? What do you think? And then we start going with question and answers back and forth so they can fully understand it.

Keith Weinhold 37:27

We're talking about how to get a high yield paid to you regularly in cash with Danny Lynn Robi son, co founder of freedom family investments. Yeah. Danny Lynn, why don't you tell us then about this up to 10% return. But you do have some option based on people's needs for the duration of the investment, which gets into the liquidity and the minimum investment amount and being accredited versus not accredited. So tell us about some of those distinctions, differences and trade offs.

Dani-Lynn Robison 37:55

There's the accredited and non accredited piece, which is really the first piece that you should be talking about when you jump on the phone, because the answer to that question depends on where, like we first check the box of which investment opportunity is going to be right for you. Accredited investors can invest in both. Non accredited investors can only invest in non accredited options. So accredited, I'm sure you've explained many times on the podcast, is a million dollars net worth, minus your primary residence, or earning $200,000 for the last two years, and you expect to earn it again. Or if you're a married couple, earning $300,000 a year for the last two years and you expect to do it again, that would be an accredited investor. So if you qualify there, we've got multiple opportunities. Then if you're wanting liquidity, then, again, that's a checkbox for us that says liquidity fund. That's where you want to be learning more about you want to learn about those interest rates the liquidity fund is seven, eight and 10% based on how long you want to put your money to work. So some people say, hey, one year is good. That gives me exactly the liquidity I need, and that's going to give me a higher rate of return, which is 8% some people think three years is liquid. It's interesting to me, what people perceive as liquid, because anybody who's invested in a syndication knows sometimes that's five, seven and 10 years. So they view a three year investment at 10% Hey, that's liquid to me. I didn't have to lock it up for five, seven and 10 years. And then some people, 90 days is liquid. And so we have the liquidity fund seven, eight and 10% depending on which class you want to go in, 7% is 90 days, 8% is one year. 10% is three years. That's for accredited investors. We have our masternote program, which is for non accredited investors, that is 8% for two years, and 10% I think, for three years, and then we have Lincoln village, and that one is closing soon. I think we're at the final $1 million to raise. That is 12, 13, and 14% but that also includes tax benefits. The end, it is a five or probably seven year timeline, because it's a 48 unit apartment in Columbus, Ohio, if we refinance in three years, yay. Everybody wins. But I always set expectations it could be a longer timeline. And so those are the main opportunities that are available based on accredited, non accredited and your returns.

Keith Weinhold 40:20

Well, the yield on the 10 year T note is 4% but here, the yield on the one year private note is substantially higher. Well, Danny Lynn, do you have any last things to tell us before you let us know how we can learn more?

Dani-Lynn Robison 40:34

I think what's important is a trust. When I'm on the phone, I get three questions. Where do I start? Which path is right for me and who do I trust? And one of my biggest investors says Danny, I think number three question of Who do I trust is the most important one. So I think it's really important to get on the phone to ask questions, to ask, Hey, what didn't I ask that I should have asked? What should I know that I don't know? Because sometimes you don't know the right questions to ask, and so we have this graph of all the things you could be looking for in an investment that people don't even realize might be very important to them. So I think what is most important is just taking the first step of starting the conversation. Once you start the conversation, you start to learn, you start to get educated, you start to understand what your true goals really are, and then you can make an A confident decision, as opposed to what many of us do is, you know, sit on our hands for a little bit because we're just nervous. We're so nervous about losing money or we don't know who to trust, and we're so busy that a year passes by and we just didn't take action. So I just encourage people a 15 minute phone call might change the game for you and allow you to get started

Keith Weinhold 41:45

right indecision really is a decision in itself, a decision to not do anything and have some of your cash be atrophied to inflation. Tell the audience how they can learn more

Dani-Lynn Robison 41:58

They can text the word FAMILY to 66866 and that is going to connect you with our team, and we're going to reach out, hopefully, set up a call and get that conversation started.

Keith Weinhold 42:09

Oh. Danny Lynn, this is going to help a lot of people. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.

Dani-Lynn Robison 42:13

Thank you, Keith,

Keith Weinhold 42:14

yeah, well, I think you know that I'm more of a borrower than I am lender, but I'm a lender in this case. So for liquid funds, this has been a reliable source for an 8% liquid return without any hassle. I mean, it's about as passive as it gets. Of course, when you store money in a bank. You're giving the bank a loan as well, even though you might not have thought about it that way. Well, if you're looking for something a little less liquid, like a three year investment duration, you are going to get a higher return than 8% here. There are good options here if you're accredited or not accredited, and you don't have to invest in one specific apartment project either, like Lincoln village that Danny Lynn mentioned, and over there at her company, like she said, yeah, those are the three questions you can ask. Where do I start? Which path is right for me, and who do I trust? And on the phone really part of that second question, which path is right for me can be to ask Danny Lynn's team about how to get this highly passive return in the most tax efficient way for you.

There's so much vital content coming up here on the show in the future. Next week, it's the first time we'll have a former NFL player on the show is we'll discuss success principles that you can use in business and life, highly motivational stuff coming there in future weeks. So much more economics and real estate investing. Content is coming, including I've got an analysis of online search results, and you'll see what amenities tenants are really searching for today when they look for rental housing. And of course, as the year gets closer to the end, next month, I am going to reveal GRE 's home price growth forecast for 2025 and just as importantly, I will follow up with last year's prediction too. We'll look back at it and then see how it really turned out for high yield returns on your savings. You don't have to settle for disappointing interest rates where you spin your wheels because you're barely beating inflation. Learn more. Set up a call. Just text FAMILY to 66866 I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream

Speaker 2 44:45

nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential. For profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 45:13

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com you
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527: Countdown to Disaster—Four Threats Facing the U.S. with Richard Duncan
11 nov· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses the current state of the US economy, noting that while it is considered strong by conventional measures, there are four major threats on the horizon that the country is not doing enough to address. He’s joined by our guest, macroeconomic expert, Richard Duncan to discuss these topics. Richard proposes a solution that could strengthen the US's competitive position against China.

Shifting from Capitalism to Creditism.

Also, hear about the risks facing the real estate and stock markets in the near-term, such as the historically high wealth-to-income ratio and the ongoing quantitative tightening by the Federal Reserve.

Learn more about Richard’s work through his video newsletter, Macro Watch. Use discount code GRE for 50% off at:

RichardDuncanEconomics.com

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/527

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Invest with Freedom Family Investments.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, per conventional measures, today's us. Economy is strong, but there are four vicious threats on the horizon, and we're not doing enough about them. Our macroeconomist guests will discuss that with us today. How alarming is it, and what's the solution to our crises, this week on get rich education,

Speaker 1 0:27

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:12

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:28

Welcome to GRE from Fort Wayne, Indiana to Fort Lee New Jersey and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are back inside get rich education. We've been here for you, every single week since 2014 coming off of an election last week, this spurs more macroeconomic thought, monetary and fiscal policy, and more than that. And you know, one thing that I'm always looking for are signs of inflation versus deflation, because we live in a long term inflationary world. Well, you wouldn't keep a million bucks under a mattress because it would only be worth 300k in a few decades. But in deflation, you would flip your strategy and actually be a saver. You might keep millions out of the mattress, because deflation would actually increase the purchasing power of every single one of your dollars. Now, I've got a pretty unpopular take for you here at some point, probably now you've got to give the Fed credit for a soft landing. And what does a soft landing mean? Exactly. It means bringing down inflation without putting the economy into a recession. Well, inflation is down to about 2% now, unemployment is still low, near 4% and GDP growth for last quarter came in at 2.8% okay, yes, I sure understand that those benefits are distributed unevenly, but at this point, how much more of a soft landing Do you really want? And by the way, this sure doesn't mean that I love the Federal Reserve. I mean, they get no credit from me for not jumping on inflation sooner, when it peaked two and a half years ago, or even before that point, well, those high consumer prices as a result of that are still with us, and that's a problem, and they got that part wrong. We're about to talk with our global macroeconomic expert, really. He is one of the foremost authorities in the entire world today. We're going to talk about four major catastrophes the US economic future faces. One of those four is our ballooning national debt and deficit. And to review that for you, first, the debt is our overall accumulation of debt over the years now at 36 trillion. And when it comes to these awful, dreadful debt and deficit issues, I will ask our guests the question, when is it game over? Where is that tipping point? What would need to happen and the deficit? Okay, that refers to the annual shortfall, the annual thing, that shortfall that our bloated government keeps coming up with at the end of every year, all right, so therefore revenue minus spending equals deficit. Another way to say that is income minus expenses equals a deficit when the expenses are greater than the income. Well, that figure is near $2 trillion we're spending 2 trillion more than we raise in revenue each year. And here's an example. I'll use real world numbers rounded off to the nearest trillion. So if the government's annual revenue is only 5 trillion and you have to subtract out spending, which is 7 trillion, that could. Gives us an annual deficit of 2 trillion, pretty simple stuff, and that more or less gets added onto our overall debt of 36 trillion. Another major problem is this growing competition from China. Yes, I know that people like to discuss their demographic problems, but still, their population is more than four times the US population, and you learn about what other advantages they have over us and what we direly need to do to catch up. In our guests opinion, these issues incur some rather detailed explanations. So I'm really going to let our guest expert takeover for a while today, this weekend, I will be in San Antonio, Texas. San Antonio is an uptrending real estate market because they are really a beneficiary in distribution with their proximity to Mexico in the near shoring movement that's taking place. And then I will be in Austin, Texas, for a few days, Austin is one of the few major US metros that have seen rents substantially decline recently. I'll bring you next week's show from Austin, where I might talk more about that. Then, from the 20th to the 24th of this month, I'll be in New Orleans at the famed New Orleans investment conference, where they're pulling out all the stops at the 50th anniversary of the event, and that is the longest running investment event in America and perhaps the world. I hope to meet some of you there in New Orleans, just like I do each time I'm at the event. Let's talk about the bigger picture economy that your real estate and investments float within next.

This week's guest is the author of four books analyzing the crises that brought the global economy to the brink of collapse in recent decades. One of the books forecast the 2008 global financial crisis with great accuracy. We're going to discuss future crises here today, before we're done, he has worked as an equities and Investment Analyst, and then he went on to hold some rather esteemed roles at the World Bank in DC and as a consultant to the IMF in Asia. He joins us from Thailand today. He now publishes a video newsletter called macro watch, and long time listeners know that today's guest was also this show's very first guest that was back on GRE podcast episode seven, only 10 years ago now, in November 2014, and he's really become quite the friend of the show, and we've looked out for each other ever since. It's terrific to have back global macro economist Richard Duncan

Richard Duncan 7:46

Keith, hey, thank you for having me back. It's great to speak with you again.

Keith Weinhold 7:50

Oh, it's so good to have you here an entire decade of our lives. And as times change, economies are surely dynamic, and you're so good at spotlighting crises and explaining them in a way to people that they can understand. So Richard, why don't you talk to us now about risks facing the nation? Yes, I'm talking about the United States.

Richard Duncan 8:15

A lot of podcasts focus on all the problems the United States is facing, and it is certainly true that the United States is facing very serious risk. So I'd like to start off this conversation telling you what I think the greatest risk facing our country are. There are four main things I'd like to hit on. The first is something you mentioned to me before in our exchange of emails, is that the US government does have a very high level of government debt relative to GDP, and the budget deficits are large. So that's problem number one. Problem number two, in my opinion, looking at this from where I live in Asia, is that the United States is at risk of being conquered by China in the not too distant future. Risk Number Two. Risk Number three, we have very serious domestic political divisions within the United States. Risk Number four is that our post capitalist economic system, which I call creditism, must have credit growth to survive. If credit contracts, then our economy will spiral into a Great Depression that will be probably worse than the one of the 1930s so those are the big four problems that we have, and it doesn't do anyone any good just to talk about our country's problems if you don't offer a solution to them. So in my opinion, all of these problems can be overcome by accelerating economic growth in the United States, while all of these problems would be made very much worse by anything that causes us economic growth to slow down. The way to make the US economy grow much faster is to have the US Government finance a very, very large investment in the industries and technologies of the future over the next 10 years, starting immediately. The alternative austerity would cause the economy to spiral down into deflation. We'd like your listeners to think of austerity when they hear the word austerity. I'd like them to think of the word death. It's austerity is equal to death. Yeah, the US doesn't have to be a declining power. The first American Century doesn't have to be the last. It can be the first of many. The solution for driving the US economy to grow much more rapidly and solving all four of the problems that I mentioned above is a US sovereign wealth fund. Thank heavens. Both parties now support the establishment of a US sovereign wealth fund. On September 5, former President Trump came out in support of establishing a US sovereign wealth fund, and on the following day, the Biden administration said, then working on this for months and had a plan that they were developing. So this is fantastic news for the United States. It offers great hope for solving all of our greatest problems. And I'd like to spend, you know, a few minutes explaining to your listeners what a US sovereign wealth fund is, yes, urgently necessary, and why both parties have now come to understand why this is important to establish.

Keith Weinhold 11:27

Yeah, please tell us why you think the US sovereign wealth fund is so urgently needed, and what it is because for even longer than the 10 years since you were first here, for about 15 years now, you have championed and promoted this US sovereign wealth fund. You discussed it on CNBC Squawk Box and all over the place. Last year, you presented about it in a speech in DC to 15 members of the House, Ways and Means Committee. So tell us about the US sovereign wealth fund and why you think it's urgently needed.

Richard Duncan 11:56

Let's begin with, what is a sovereign wealth fund? Well, effectively, a sovereign wealth fund is where a country invest in individual companies or even in startups. There are sovereign wealth funds all around the world. Norway has the largest, Singapore has two very effective ones called gdic and Temasek, which had been enormously profitable and successful, and it made the people in Singapore much richer. So a sovereign wealth fund in the United States would be an investment bond financed by the United States government with the US. This investment fund would take stakes in existing companies and also in startup companies, hopefully on a very large scale. Now, some people have asked, Why is this framework necessary? Why do we need a sovereign wealth fund to do that when the government is already making investments in the military, for instance, and funding some R and D research? Well, the difference between what the government is doing now and a sovereign wealth fund is with a sovereign wealth fund, the government would actually keep equity stakes in these companies that they invest in, meaning that when these companies they invest in become enormously profitable, the profits would be owned by every American. The Americans would have the equity stakes in all of the investments that this sovereign wealth fund makes. And it would be a situation where the government provides the financing, but the private sector manages the companies. The government just finances these companies in new industries and new technologies, and the government has the ability to invest on a very much larger scale than the private sector does. For example, The United States has a lot of great companies in the private sector that have accomplished really, truly great things in recent years and long past as well. But these private sector companies cannot invest on the same scale that the Chinese government can. The Chinese government is investing on a much larger scale than any of the American companies could ever dream to invest on. And that's explains why China is overtaking us now technologically, and if they continue to invest at a rapid rate that they're doing currently, then before long, there are going to be far ahead of us technologically and therefore economically, and more worryingly, militarily, the US government has the ability to invest truly on a multi trillion dollar scale over the next decade in new industries and technologies, things like artificial intelligence, quantum computing, nanotech, biotech, genetic engineering and developing energy sources like fusion, and it has the ability to do this on such a large scale that it would be certain to succeed. And once these companies start creating cancer vaccines or fusion, for instance, they would be enormously profitable, and they could be listed on. NASDAQ at multi trillion dollar valuations, and the American public would own equity stakes in these companies, and would then would directly reap the rewards of these profits that these companies would generate. That is what a sovereign wealth fund is, why it's desperately needed, is, well, first of all, we should do it, because we can easily afford to do it. And the results, the breakthroughs, the technological breakthroughs and medical miracles that these sorts of companies would produce, would we really have the shot of curing all the diseases and radically extending life expectancy, developing sources of limitless energy that would bring down the cost of energy radically. Just across the board, it would induce a technological revolution that would turbo charge us economic growth, create UNDRIP wealth, and at the same time, shore up US national security in the face of this growing threat from China. So for all of those reasons, it is urgently necessary. In my opinion.

Keith Weinhold 16:04

both Norway and Singapore have had similar models to this. US sovereign wealth fund, and we certainly think of those two nations as prosperous places, tell me more about why it's a success so the government finances it does that incentivize companies to therefore take more risk?

Richard Duncan 16:25

It allows them to invest more. It allows them to invest on a much larger scale than that. Could if they have to rely on their own funding sources. Rather than investing millions of dollars, they could invest billions of dollars or 10s of billions of dollars. For instance, at the moment, the National Cancer Institute in the United States, this annual budget is $6 billion a year. $6 billion a year is not curing cancer. If we look back a few years ago, the Fed was creating $120 billion a month through quantitative easing per month. So with just 5% of one month of QE, you could double the National Cancer Institute's budget. Now that's not what this sovereign wealth fund would do. That just illustrates the scale. How much greater the scale would be that the government could invest on relative to what is currently being invested at the moment by the government and by the private sector combined.

Keith Weinhold 17:28

Do any critics ever ask about Wait? Is this too much government intervention into the free market? Is this a move away from capitalism? What do you say to those sort of critics?

Richard Duncan 17:38

I say to them that capitalism died in World War One. It certainly didn't survive the 20th century. Now the government. In the 19th century, we had capitalism. The government had very little involvement in the economy then and gold was money. But now gold is no longer money. The Fed creates some money. Government spending is something like nearly $7 trillion out of a GDP. That is around just not quite $30 trillion yet. So the government has been directing the economy going back at least since World War Two. This hasn't been capitalism for a very long time. Under capitalism, the private sector made investments, and some businessmen would make profits from their investments, and they would save that profit as capital and reinvest that capital. That's how capitalism grew. That's why they called it capitalism. It was based on capital accumulation and investment. But that's not how our economic system has worked for decades. Our system now is not driven by investment and saving by the private sector. It's driven by credit creation and consumption and more credit creation and more consumption and our economies has now been transformed from capitalism. It has evolved into creditism, with the government playing the directing role. So total credit in the United States, just last quarter blew through $100 trillion for the first time. By what I mean by total credit is the same thing as total debt. Total credit is equal to total debt. So this is all the debt of all sectors of the economy, the government sector, the household sector, the corporate sector, the financial sector, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac all the sectors of the economy, it just went through $100 trillion and Breda ism has created very rapid growth, especially all around the world, not only in the United States, because it has allowed the US economy to grow so rapidly and to import so much from other countries that this is why The Asian miracle occurred. I've lived through the Asian miracle because the US has been running massively large trade deficits since the early 1980s and all these countries in Asia have been running massively large trade surpluses, and all this spending that the Americans have been doing has been fueled by this rapidly. Radically expansion of credit. Total credit first went through $1 trillion in 1964 now it's $100,000,000,000,000. 60 years later. Now our system is not capitalism. The government is very involved. Anytime there's any problem with the economy, the government steps in. In 2008 the government prevented a new Great Depression when the private sector the households defaulted on their debts and caused all the banks to fail, and Freddie Mac did fail and had to be taken over by the government. So at that time, we narrowly avoided a Great Depression, because the government increased its budget deficits by more than a trillion dollars a year for four years in a row, and the Fed expanded. The Fed created three and a half trillion dollars between the end of 2007 and 2014, expanding its balance sheet by about five times. So that's not capitalism. We don't have capitalism. So people who are worried about us abandoning capitalism. They're behind the times that happened a long time ago. That shouldn't be a concern. They should be aware now that we are competing against players who don't play by the capitalist rules of little government intervention in the markets we're now competing against China, and China is one giant sovereign wealth fund intent on dominating the world by investing very aggressively in new industries and technologies. In the year 2000 the United States invested, I think, 10 times as much in research and development as China did. But now China is actually investing more in research and development and the US is and that explains why China is ahead in so many areas of technology. They had 5g years before we did. They are the leaders in electric vehicles and batteries. We have to put up 100% tariffs to keep out electric vehicles from China because they're so much better than our electric vehicles. They dominate solar panels. And are worse, they have hypersonic missiles and we don't, and I'm sure they have other military advantages that we don't, because they invest much more aggressively in new industries and technologies than our government does. And if we don't rectify this quickly, then we are soon going to be overtaken by China militarily, and our national security is at risk, much more than most Americans understand. But this realization has slowly grown on policymakers in Washington, and now both parties are worried about this, and this is why we have this growing fear of China, and why we have proposals to limit technology transfers to China, and this is why we've done things like the chips and science act, where the government has agreed to finance a $280 billion investment in new industries and technologies a couple of years ago, with 50 billion of that going into setting up manufacturing facilities within the in the US to create semiconductors, rather than relying solely on Taiwan to obtain all of our semiconductors, because China could take Taiwan at any moment, and then then he would end up with all the semiconductor chips that go into powering artificial intelligence. And whoever develops Artificial General Intelligence first is going to rule the world, and therefore it had better be the United States rather than China, because we don't want to live in a world dominated by China, believe me.

Keith Weinhold 23:26

Well, a lot of macro voices agree with you. About two months ago, we had the president of the Mises Institute here, and the way he characterized things are in the United States. 100 years ago, we had islands of socialism in a sea of capitalism, and today we merely have islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism. Do you see the US sovereign wealth fund being able to solve all four of the United States big problems that you outlined, debt and deficit conquering by China, political division and creditism. Can it solve all four of those?

Richard Duncan 24:04

Yes, it can. So as you know, Keith, a couple of years ago, I published my fourth book. It was called the money revolution. Yeah? How to find the book? Sure, yeah. How to finance the next American century. It was a subtitle. Now I argue that it would be very easy for the US to invest on a multi trillion dollar scale, new industries and new technologies over the next decade, and if we do that through a sovereign wealth fund, then would generate so much growth and be so profitable that instead of causing the government debt to increase, it would actually make the economy so much larger and generate so many more tax revenues, and the government would make so many profits from these companies that it has equity stakes in that it would reduce the government debt in absolute terms, and radically reduce the government debt relative to GDP, which would grow far faster than it has been growing in recent decades. This problem, number one, solved the high level of government debt. A high level of debt to GDP just make the GDP grow a lot faster, and the ratio of debt to GDP will go down. Problem number two is the US is at risk of being conquered by China. We can out invest China. We can invest more than China can afford to invest. We still have the best universities and the best entrepreneurs and scientists. So if we invest on a large enough scale, we will win, and China will not conquer us. Third, if the economy is growing at 7% a year instead of 1% a year, that is going to alleviate a lot of the domestic tensions that exist currently, much of the reason there's the origins of this domestic political divide that we're now suffering from in the US is because such a large part of the population has been left behind when all the factories moved overseas, countries like China and Vietnam, we de industrialized, and the people who Used to have good factory jobs, good, unionized, high paying factory jobs. All those people were left out in the cold, and they're not happy about it. And so if our economy were growing much more rapidly, these people would have much better jobs and much higher salaries, and they would be much happier than they are at the moment. And the final one was our post capitalist system of creditism requires credit growth to survive. So if the government is financing these investments on a multi trillion dollar scale, it's going to make credit expand, and that's going to keep the economy expanding. So yes, it would solve all four of those problems.

Keith Weinhold 26:35

One of those four problems is the debt and the deficit. I want to dive into that more with Richard as it becomes more and more problematic in the United States, and just how far we can kick this can down the road. You're listening to get rich education. We're talking with macro economist Richard Duncan. More, we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

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Jim Rickards 28:40

this is Author Jim Rickards. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 28:55

Welcome back to get rich education. We are going big this week, talking about the global economy, although mostly centered on the United States, with macroeconomist Richard Duncan. You can learn more about him at RichardDuncaneconomics.com and Richard I want to talk about the debt in the deficit. The debt is the United States overall debt as it accumulates year after year, and the deficit is just the annual thing, and it's so interesting and concerning. When I look at this, when you look at the line items in the United States government's annual spending, we now see that interest payments are taking the second largest chunk, only to Social Security. Social Security's number one interest is the second biggest expense, even more than defense spending and on Medicare. So I just wonder, as I see the interest payments going up and up and up and projected to be our greatest expense every year. You know, one thing I think about Richard is when our interest payments alone exceed our. Revenue somewhere down the road, is that when it's game over, or is that when we're on the way to game over? So can you talk to us about really, where the concern crops up with the deficit, like I talked about, and with the debt that's now at about $36 trillion

Richard Duncan 30:17

deficit and debt is a real problem. It was the first problem that I mentioned when we kicked off the conversation. There are two components of that. One is the fact that government debt has been increasing very rapidly. At the end of 2007 total government debt was around $9 trillion by 2014 it had doubled to $18 trillion because the government had to respond to the collapse of the private sector in 2008 and prevent us from having a great depression at that time, and then after 2014 it has doubled again, from 18 trillion to $36 trillion now, much of that was due to the need for the government to keep us from having another Great Depression during COVID When government stimulus amounted to about $5 trillion and the Fed created a similar amount over just a two year period. So now we have a much higher level of government debt. But the second component of that is that interest rates are very much higher than they used to be. The federal funds rate went up from 0% a few years back to a high of five and a quarter, actually a range between five and a quarter and five and a half. And recently, the Fed cut the federal funds rate by 50 basis points. But you can still say it is 4.9% let's call it 4.9% so interest rates are far higher than they used to be, but they don't have to remain high. The reason interest rates went up is because the Fed increased the federal funds rate. And the reason the Fed increased the federal funds rate is because we had high rates of inflation. Inflation peaked at 9% or so in 2022 but most recently, the CPI has come back down to 2.4% and the Fed's favorite measure of inflation, that PCE Price Index, has come down to 2.2% and that means that the federal funds rate, which is 4.9% is more than twice as high as the inflation rate is. That shows us that we have very tight monetary policy, and the Fed should be able to reduce interest rates very rapidly going forward. They've told us in their dot plot projections that they expect that interest rates will end this year the federal funds rate at 4.4% and then in next year, at 3.4% and 2026 at 2.9% so that reduction in interest rates will bring down the cost of the total interest expense that you mentioned as being so high currently, the risk, however, is that we get a rebound in inflation. We're inflation to surge again, then interest rates won't come down. In fact, they could go higher. So all of my career, more or less, has been spent in Asia. And the main theme that is run through the global economy, the development of the global economy over the last three and a half decades has been globalization, globalization in the form of us running very large trade deficits with other countries. Literally, the US current account deficit since the early 1980s has been $15 trillion meaning countries with the trade surpluses have had a $15 trillion trade surplus, and that's why they've all been transformed economically as a result of their trade surplus with the US, but what the US got out of this was the ability to buy things made with very low cost labor, and that was extremely disinflationary, that drove down the inflation rate in the US, and that allowed interest rates in the US to come down to very low levels that we've seen during most of this century, Up until the time COVID started. The real danger is now, if we do impose very high trade tariffs on China and our other trading partners, then that will cause a very serious spike in inflation. And it won't just be one off, because, of course, when the tariffs are put in place, that will immediately cause everything to be that much more expensive. The US companies importing goods from abroad would have to pay that tariff, then those US companies would pass those higher expenses on to the consumers, so we'd get an immediate spike in inflation. But that would also mean that the companies abroad it wouldn't be so profitable for them to have their manufacturing facilities abroad, they would try to bring those back home. And given that the unemployment rate in the US is so low already, only 4.1% there's not enough labor to allow these manufacturing facilities to come back to the US and start producing goods in the US. So that would cause an upward spiral. In wages and the wage push inflation spiral of the type that we had in the late 1960s and early 1970s so that is a In other words, tariffs would put an end to globalization, and that would cause a such a severe spike in inflation and interest rates, it would essentially be the death nail for creditism, which requires credit growth to survive. The end of globalization would mean this end of this 30 year global economic boom that the world has enjoyed, and therefore it is a very severe threat, and it would push up the interest expense of the US government, which you let off with, instead of lower interest rates, bringing down the interest expense the government has to pay every year, we would have instead higher interest rates, which would make the amount that the government has to pay on its interest even higher than it is at the moment, and make the budget deficit even larger than it is at the moment, and Make the government debt grow even faster than it's growing at the moment. So let's hope that doesn't happen. Instead, the better approach is to invest, to have the government finance large scale investments in new industries and technologies make the economy grow much more rapidly and we can grow our way out of this debt problem that we're currently in,

Keith Weinhold 36:21

yes more inflation, whether that comes from higher tarrifs or any other sources, will lead to higher interest rates to counteract that higher inflation, which will Yes, pump up the deficit in the debt that much more. And you know, one thing that I like about Richard is, you know, a lot of people complain about things, or say, what are we going to do? Or Things look bad, and Richard is saying some of that, but he offers a way forward with the US sovereign wealth fund, like he talked about before, investing our way out of it. So Richard, if we don't invest in this debt and deficit situation gets worse. It could be a hard question to answer, but I'd like your best guess at how far can we kick the can down the road? When is it game over? How big do our interest payments on the debt and deficit have to get?

Richard Duncan 37:10

the game is never over. No matter how bad things become, humanity will survive and carry on. So even in the Great Depression, people made it through, even through World War Two that resulted, largely as a result of the Great Depression. A lot of people died. 60 million people died, but the game didn't end. So regardless of how bad the economic system system were to become, humanity will survive and there will be a solution. Now, a lot of people put forward that, the idea that they point out that we have this high level of government debt, and their solution is to reduce government spending. The government spends something like $6.8 trillion last year. That was the amount the government spent. The budget deficit last year was 1.8 trillion so in order to eliminate the budget deficit, the government would have to spend $1.8 trillion less. In other words, it would have to cut its spending by 27% but the government cut its spending by 27% they're going to happen. The economy would immediately spiral into a depression. So even that reduction in spending wouldn't balance the budget, because the government revenues would collapse, and they would have even fewer tax revenues, so the deficit would still be there, the economy would collapse, and the unemployment rate would be 20 plus percent, and would just fall further behind China and be at greater risk from a national security perspective, and much more miserable As a society overall. That's why it's always say people should consider think of the words austerity and death at the same time, because austerity would bring about the collapse of our economic system and the Great Depression unless your civilization would survive it. trying to answer your question more directly, how high could this go? Well, governments don't default on their debt when push comes to shove. If the government's having a hard time paying interest on its debt, the Fed will just print more money. And in a case where between 2008 and 2014 when the Fed created three and a half trillion dollars, they printed a lot of money at that short space of time, and they got away with it without having high rates of inflation. The highest rate of inflation we had during that period was 3.8% in 2011 and by the early months of 2015 we had deflation again for a few months. Prices actually fell negative CPI for a few months in 2015 so if we have a global economy, as we do at the moment, full of we have nearly 8 billion people, I would guess 2 billion of them at least live on less than $5 a day. So the US could get away with having a lot of paper money printing without having higher, very high rates of inflation and the government could finance itself that way for quite a long time. Of course, if we have a closed domestic economy brought about by extremely high tariff barriers, then we would end up with hyperinflation in the United States. But even with hyperinflation, it would be very painful for people who have all their cash in the bank or under their mattress, but people with assets, those asset prices would appreciate more or less in line with the inflation, and it would erode the government debt relative to the size of the economy, because the GDP would grow in nominal terms very rapidly because of the hyperinflation, and the debt, which is not inflation adjusted, would be evaporated away by the inflation.

Keith Weinhold 40:43

right? that's why here at GRE we are all invested and aimed toward prudent use of leverage with assets like real estate and we sure have been the beneficiaries of that wave of inflation that followed COVID there. Richard, well, we're talking about the debt and the deficit somewhat, which, interestingly, has actually doubled since the first time you were here on the show. When you were here, 10 years ago, it was at 18 trillion, and today it's at 36 trillion. We talked about, how far can you kick the can down the road back then? Well, here we are, 10 years later, and it's doubled. Talk to us. You know, you talked previously about the greatest risk to the United States economy. Tell us now, as we are investors here on this show, about the greatest risk to the real estate and stock market, I would just say within the next year. What are some of those risks to those particular markets?

Richard Duncan 41:38

We've already discussed the main risk that high tariffs would potentially cause a new spike of inflation and force the Fed to hike interest rates rather than cutting interest rates. But there are some other risk as well. One is the fact that we already have a very high level of wealth relative to income. Let me back up a second. You were talking about debt doubling since we first spoke 10 years ago. Here's another statistic for you. Just in the last four and a half years, the total wealth of the Americans, all of their assets minus all of their liabilities. In other words, household sector net worth. Since the end of 2019 it has increased by $47 trillion in four and a half years. That's about a 40% increase. Now, $47 trillion is enough to pay off the entire US government tip, which we've been worrying about with $11 trillion left over. So not everything is as bleak as it sounds on the surface. We've had a huge explosion of wealth in the last four and a half years that's been driven by property and also by stocks. The problem now is, is that the level of income the asset prices, are very inflated relative to their historic norms. And one of the ratios that I always keep an eye on is called the wealth to income ratio. It takes the household sector net worth. In other words, the wealth that we were just discussing, which, by the way, is now $164 trillion of wealth owned by the Americans. The wealth divided by income, disposable personal income, this wealth to income ratio is now an extraordinarily high level. The ratio is 785% whereas the average of that ratio going back to 1950 has been 550% the previous two peaks were in the year 2000 when it hit 620 during the NASDAQ bubble, and then that bubble popped, and the stock market crashed, and we had a recession, and it went back to 550 and then it surged to a new peak of 680 during the property bubble. And then that bubble popped, and we almost went into a depression, and that a lot of wealth was destroyed. We had a severe recession. The government had to bail us out from and that ratio went back to 550 again. Now it is just off the charts relative to its previous peaks, because people 680 now it's 785 so people used to suggest that higher asset prices were justified because interest rates were near 0% but even after the Fed hiked interest rates from near 0% to about 5% The asset prices have stayed inflated. That does suggest that asset prices are very inflated and therefore very vulnerable to any sort of shock that could occur, whether geopolitical or economic or domestic political problems. So that's a concern. Another concern is quantitative tightening is still occurring. Quantitative tightening is the opposite of quantitative easing. When, with quantitative easing, the Fed creates money and pumps it into the financial markets, and that tends to make asset prices go up, and it also tends to make interest rates on government debt stay low, because if it pushes up bond prices, it pushes down. Bond yields. Well, now the opposite is occurring. Over the last two years, the Fed has destroyed roughly $2 trillion it created $5 trillion from the end of 2019 till about 2022 during the COVID pandemic, and the policy response to that, the Fed created $5 trillion but now it's destroyed 2 trillion of that five that it created, and is still destroying dollars at the rate of about $60 billion a month, or $700 billion a year. And as it does, as it destroys dollars, it takes dollars out of the financial system, which all other things being the same, tends to make financial conditions tighter, putting upward pressure on bond yields and downward pressure on asset prices. So as this continues, this is a concern, because reduce the liquidity in the system by another $700 billion if it continues for another year, having said that there is still an enormous amount of excess liquidity in the system as a result of all of the money that the Fed has created, going back to 2008 I estimate that the excess liquidity is somewhere around three and a half trillion dollars. If you look at bank reserves and the reverse repos at the Fed is about three and a half trillion dollars of excess liquidity, and the Fed actually has to pay interest to the banks on their bank reserves to hold interest rates up. That's how the Fed controls the federal funds rate now. It pays the banks roughly right now, 4.8% interest on all of the banks bank reserves, and so the banks will not lend money to anyone at less than 4.8% interest, because the Fed will pay them 4.8% interest. Why would they lend to anyone else for less if it suddenly stopped paying interest on these bank reserves, these banks would look around and where would they invest their three and a half trillion dollars in? No one's going to pay them 4.8% or even 3.8% or 2.8% interest rates would plunge because of all the excess liquidity that exists. So this excess liquidity has been a thing that's been driving the economy since COVID started, and it's why we've managed to avoid recession, which everyone is expected to arrive any moment now for the last two and a half years. So there are concerns, but there are also, as always, other reasons for optimism.

Keith Weinhold 47:24

Well, that wealth to income ratio that Richard talked about, that's a calculation that you yourself can do. One's net worth is almost eight times their income now, which is at a historic high, which is one concerning point that Richard brought up. Well, Richard, I want you to tell us about your terrific video newsletter, macro watch unless you have any other last thoughts first.

Richard Duncan 47:51

well, just one last word on the US sovereign wealth fund. Thank you very much for giving me a chance to discuss that and to explain why both Democrats and Republicans are now in favor of establishing a US sovereign wealth fund, one of the few issues that has bipartisan support. And this must come as a surprise to many of your listeners and most Americans, in fact, why have both parties agreed on really setting up a US sovereign wealth fund? So I'm glad I've had a chance to explain it and why it's so urgently necessary. I'd just like to emphasize the extraordinary benefits that this delivers to the American people, both individually and at a national level, individually, in terms of medical breakthroughs and better health and much more rapid economic growth for the economy, so much more wealth and much more national security as well. So I hope the Americans will get on board with this idea and give it their full support, because it's exactly what our country needs to solve all the four issues, the major issues that I laid out at the beginning of this conversation. But with that said, if your listeners would like to learn more about my work, Macrowatch. Microwatch is a video newsletter. Every couple of weeks, I upload a new video discussing something important happening in the global economy and how that's likely to affect the stock market, property, currencies and commodities. They can find macro watch on my website, which is RichardDuncanEconomics.com that's RichardDuncanEconomics.com Macro Watch has been going on now for 11 years, they'll find more than 100 hours of videos in the microwatch archives. They can begin watching immediately, and they'll receive a new video every couple of weeks. And I'd like to offer your listeners a subscription discount. If they go to Richard Duncan economics.com and hit the subscribe button, they'll be prompted to put in a discount coupon code, if they put it in G, R, E, they can subscribe to macro watch at a 50% discount. That's great. That's GRE so I hope they'll check that out, and at the very least, they can sign up there for my free blog and follow my work that way.

Keith Weinhold 49:56

And I have benefited from consuming macro watch content myself over the years, allowing me to sort of stretch my thought process and go macro, which we don't always do as real estate investors. Oh, Richard, it's been valuable as always, and you really offered a solution, a way forward here, something that's really refreshing. It's been great as always, having you back on the show.

Richard Duncan 50:18

Yeah. Thank you very much. I look forward to the next time

Keith Weinhold 50:21

me too. when it comes to the term capitalism, if that's truly a system that we're no longer in, you know, it seems to get replaced with the word meritocracy, and that is a word that I like, meritocracy, where producers get rewards for being productive, but even that is under attack, and the government just always seems to be stepping in with a safety net. Seemingly everywhere you look, it won't let banks fail. We saw them jump in early last year with Silicon Valley Bank and other bank failures, the government won't let homeowners fail either. I mean, you don't have to think back very far with mortgage loan forbearance in the COVID era, on issues of the debt and deficit. Even Fed Chair Jerome Powell himself has called it unsustainable. That's the word that he used. Like Richard said today, we won't default. We'll just print more. So when it comes to the inflation versus deflation tug of war, the future keeps looking inflationary, but at what rate of inflation? That's what I don't know, and no one really knows. If you like Richard Duncan's content, and you sort of wished he and I's conversation would go on. Well, he is a regular guest here, so I expect him back. But if you're telling yourself, I want more of his content and I want to make it visual at the same time to help really bring this to life, well, visit RichardDuncanEconomics.com hit the subscribe button and get 50% off. That's five zero, 50% off with the discount code. GRE. Happy Veterans Day. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 2 52:17

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice, please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively you

Keith Weinhold 52:46

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com
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526: Make America Rich Again, Coaching Call
4 nov· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses the inefficiency of compound interest in wealth building, advocating for compound leverage through real estate investments. He illustrates how a $100,000 investment in a $500,000 property at a 6% annual return can yield much higher returns due to leverage (see the math below).

He also explains how mortgage rates are influenced by long-term bond yields and discusses the benefits of real estate over stocks.

A coaching call with GRE Investment Coach Naresh highlights the process of investing in real estate, including financing considerations and the role of a coach in guiding investors.

Here’s the math on a 5:1 leveraged RE return at a 6% appreciation rate:

Year One: $500,000 x 1.06 = $530,000. Subtract $400K debt = $130,000 equity

Year Two: $530,000 x 1.06 = $561,800. Subtract $400K debt = $161,800 equity

Year Three: $561,800 x 1.06 = $595,508. Subtract $400K debt = $195,508 equity.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:00

Keith, welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, make America rich again in play numbers. You'll get a fresh take today on how compound interest does not build wealth and compound leverage does. Then you'll learn about how bond market moves affect mortgage rates. Finally, you get to listening to a call between one of our investment coaches and a GRE follower today on Get Rich Education.

Speaker 1 0:33

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:19

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:35

Welcome to GRE from Altoona, Pennsylvania to Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and this is get rich education, the voice of real estate investing Since 2014 you're going to hear some things that you've never heard before today, and some listeners tell us that GRE is unlike any real estate information they've ever heard. And with what I want to tell you today, well, again, it's information that I've never heard anywhere else, either. So what I endeavor to regularly do for you here on this show is to tell you what I wish I had known sooner make America rich again, nope, that is not my presidential campaign platform for my run in the year 2032, or anything like that. It is this, don't get your money to work for you. In fact, if you want real wealth, don't work for money or get your money to work for you. Don't make either of those things the focus anyway, avoid growing your money through compound interest, because that's not the formula either. Now you and I have covered that ground before, if you're new here, and that material makes you say what you might have thought things like that were the holy grail of wealth building, nope, and today, for the first time on the show, in over 500 episodes, I'm gonna put some real numbers to that to show you exactly what I mean. Let me explain to you how to invest to truly win in a way that you've never seen in your life. You're not gonna improve only your life, but generationally, your entire family's life. At your job, you are like a dock worker. You're trying to pull your boat up to the dock so that you can then make a short, easy hop onto the boat and get away. And you'll learn how I did that and how I would begin investing today if I could start all over again. Now, after I had graduated college and had a job, I used to think, Well, yeah, I'll invest through a 401K in mutual funds, because it's easy and it's just deducted right from my paycheck. Well, when you do the easy thing in life, there's usually not much reward. And back then, I thought, Well, why would I invest in real estate anyway? I mean, a stock and mutual fund return on investment is about 10% over time. Real Estate is more like five or 6% plus real estate has all these maintenance hassles, and in the stock market, your 10% return enjoys compound interest. I don't really know how that works over on the real estate side, all right. Well, let's look at some numbers with how this would all work anyway. Here we go with $100,000 invested in stocks at 10% after year one, it's grown to $110,000 in year two, you don't just have 120k you've got more, because the 10% compounds on the 110 10k so now in year two, you've got $121,000 and I bet that you don't see any problem in this yet, right? Hey, things are going great. And after year three, you're up to $133,100 All right, so there we are. You begin with 100k and after three years, you've got then $33,100 in profit, your gain, on top of your 100k All right, that's what compound interest does. Well, let's take a closer look at that. $33,100 first, okay, I could attack it a slew of reasonable ways, if I wanted to, we could subtract out the constant drags on that of inflation, emotion, taxes, fees and volatility. But let's just take one volatility. We smoothed out our 10% return saying that you achieved it every year in that example there, we know that does not happen in the real world. Stocks are volatile, and the more volatile the return, the lower the return. Because instead, if you were up 20% one year and then down 20% the next year, which stocks are known to do you're not even you're down your 100k would instead go up to 120k in year one and down to 96k in year two, a loss, like I've told you before, that right there is the difference between what's called the compounded annual growth rate and the average annual return. But we'll just leave stocks number right there. We'll say that despite all five drags, volatility, of which is just one, the compound interest still somehow gave you this $33,100 gain. That number is about to look really disappointing, and this is about to get really interesting.

Let's compare that to real estate, and we'll say that despite that, it only returns, say, 6% per year here. Well, how do most people buy real estate? They do it with other people's money. OPM, remember earlier that I talked to you about how you don't create wealth from getting only your money to work for you, like you did in the stock example. Yeah, here's how you ethically use other people's money to buy real estate. When you invest 100k in a rental property. That's your 20% down. You get to borrow 80% from the bank, 400k so now you control a $500,000 property. And here's the thing, its entire value appreciates a 6% all 500k not only your 100k invested, yes, so you're now about to get the return on both your 100k and all of the bank's money. 400k that you get to leverage returns from both are about to go to you. Oh, yes, let's run these numbers, instead of compound interest, you're about to get compound leverage, using those borrowed funds to amplify your own return. So with your 100k invested on a 500k property at 6% after year one, you've got 130k after year two, $161,800 and after year three, $195,508 why? Because, again, your 6% return was accumulating on the 500k property. All right, so after year three, with this $195,508 you're gonna subtract out your 100k down payment, and your gain is $95,508 All right, that is compared to your compound interest based stock and mutual fund return of just $33,100 if you'd like to see the math for that leverage. Return that is in the show notes. Look for it there. See, by employing other people's money, it's like when you were a kid and in the evening, your body cast a shadow five times taller than you actually were. That's how leverage allows you to magnify returns and appear to be a bigger, taller investor than you actually are. Yes, your 20% down payment on real estate gave you five to one leverage amplifying your returns. If you listen to the show for a while, you understand that, but you never saw that numeric dollar per dollar comparison like we just did. So after three years, how about 33k profit on stocks and 95k on real estate? Real estate returns almost three times as much. But in reality, it's probably more than a 3x win for real estate because you're 95 Gain over three years in real estate, equity is actually going to be higher, because your tenant is also paying down your principal balance on your 400k loan every single month for 36 months in this three year example, if your property is vacant, 10% of the time they paid it down for you 33 out of 36 months, and as we know, at the same time, inflation pays down your loan even faster than the tenant does. Real Estate is also more tax advantaged than your stock gain, because you never have to pay capital gains tax on your 95k profit with a 1031 tax deferred exchange. And on the downside for real estate, upon owning the property, you will need to pay closing costs of maybe four to 5% of the purchase price. All right now, in this 95k gain for real estate versus 33k gain for stocks, I did some rounding there. Yes, even if your stock return was in a 401 K type fund, well, you would still have to either pay the tax now with a Roth or later with a traditional retirement plan. So you're still paying the tax. The higher real estate return is also more likely because real estate is less volatile than stocks, and I've got more vitally important things to tell you about how you just grew wealth about three times faster with leverage than with compound interest. And yes, this is exactly the kind of stuff I wish I knew when I had just started out. Now if you think you don't have the money for a down payment. I'll get into that. But first, a big review here, and I've woven threads of this review through previous episodes. First, don't focus on getting only your money to work for you. And second, stress compound leverage, not compound interest. Optimize using other people's money. And when you take out a loan for rental property, you get to use other people's money three ways at the same time, three different entities, you're using their money. Number one, it's for the bank's loan, like we discussed. Number two, you're using the government's money for generous tax incentives. I only touched on one of the tax incentives. And then, thirdly, you are using the tenants money to pay down your mortgage loan and pay all of your properties operating expenses, like maintenance repairs, insurance, property taxes and pay your property manager to make this all mostly passive for you. I don't manage any of my own properties. I think you already know that. And on top of that, hopefully you'll have a little residual income after expenses every month, your monthly profit of rent income minus expenses, that is called cash flow. And when I talk about doing this ethically, use an experienced property manager. Never get called a slumlord. Provide housing that's clean, safe, affordable and functional, okay, some really core, enduring, GRE mantras in there. But what if real estate goes down in value? It's not common, but I did have it happen to me around 2008 we won't even talk about what happens when stocks go down in value, but when real estate values went down in 2008 it just didn't matter that my rental property's values were temporarily suppressed because my rents were higher than my expenses, I was still making income each month off the property. That's a good way to own property, if you can. I'm not motivated to sell an asset. I mean, are you motivated to sell an asset that's paying you income every month during a time when it's capital value dip, so probably not. And by the way, there is nothing new or esoteric here. You just haven't had it explained to you in this way before. This 33k from stocks and mutual funds versus 95k from real estate you haven't seen that before. This is simply buying houses with plain vanilla 30 year fixed rate loans, and it's just simply long term buy and hold. This is not flipping, as I like to say. This is not day trading. This is decade trading, as you continue along in your real estate journey, keep stacking more properties, and it's gonna go faster than you think, because you've got this power of compound leverage, and your tenant also pays you income that you can use toward buying the next property, and then as a backup, you have that trapped equity that keeps accumulating in your property. And the reason this goes faster than you think is that you can also release that equity by removing it with a completely tax free event, a cash out refinance, all while you still hold onto the asset and you. Use the untrapped equity to put down payments on more property. Now, what if you think you don't have the money to start or get as big as you want, as fast as you want? Well, I've met a lot of people that when they understand this compound leverage concept, they withdraw their 401 K funds, pay a penalty and pay the taxes, and they put those funds toward real estate. I mean, you would owe taxes on it anyway. Now that part may or may not be ready for you, but you know, once I understood this, what I did is I stopped contributing to my 401K and I instead got into compound leverage. Yeah, this is how to make America rich again. Now, what if you think you don't have 100k to invest in property like we did in our example? Well, there are perfectly good $200,000 properties at GREmarketplace.com where you could make a $40,000 down payment. But you still might be thinking, I'll just say that the real estate market is just really competitive now, and that your small down payment maybe it can't compete with a deep pockets all cash offer, because all cash buyers can close really fast, but no your small down payment can still compete with all cash offers, because Some sellers don't want a quick sale for either tax reasons or myriad lifestyle reasons that they might have, I like to say that using debt is like using fire if it's misallocated, like with 23% credit card debt, that's what the average credit card interest rate is right now, 23% well that can burn down your financial house. But if you know how to use the debt in a controlled manner, like from income property that others paid down for you, oh, that fire is contained in a stove, and that fire or fireplace will heat your home. If I could start all over again with what I know now, it would be to embrace good debt, because tenants pay down this debt for me, so use it as leverage to build a real estate empire. Think of it this way, besides the employer match, every dollar that you lock inside a 401K is $1 that you cannot use to leverage other people's money. Back when I started investing, I should not have contributed to a conventional retirement plan beyond the employer match myself. So I used leverage to pull my boat up to the dock more than three times faster and escape the day job when I was still young enough to enjoy it. And once you know the difference, why would you want to do life any other way? You might have heard that real estate has made more people wealthy than any other investment today.

You've learned how now, sometimes it is hard to stop and turn off a mindset if the same thing has been believed for a long time. I think we've all experienced that. If you believe something for a long time, well then it's hard to change your mind on that, and you might even fight and defend that core belief. That could be the case here with me, denigrating the wealth building capability of compound interest. And if you're still wrestling with that yourself, a great compliment where I discuss this more in depth and in a different way, can be found on an episode that I did earlier this year that is on GRE Podcast, episode 507 episode 507 is called compound interest is weak. I'm here to talk to you about things that are really gonna move the meter in your financial life, like what I've covered with you so far, and what I'm gonna help you learn next. You know, there's just some information out there, even real estate information, it's just not that useful. Say, for example, mortgage purchase applications were down from last week, but yet they were up month over month. Well, that might matter to certain sub industries, but it doesn't move the meter in your life with how you're going to actionably build wealth.

Hey, before we move on, I want to give a major shout out to this show's long time, steady, capable sound engineer, Vedran. He just hit the 10 year mark of filling that important role for us here. Yet 10 years almost since the inception of this show. He's been with us since November of 2014 so since about episode five, and he's edited every single episode since then, and he recently told me that he looks forward to the next 10. Congratulations, Vedran. Also, thanks to you, the listener, the follower. Here, we held three GRE live virtual events this year, webinars. You. You are really taking action. Back in June, we broke a record with 307 registrants for that event. And then our latest event that was held about 10 days ago saw another record broken, 528 of you registering, and I say thanks, because you make me feel good. You're showing that I'm helping make a difference in your life. And now maybe you're thinking these events or this platform, it's getting too well known, and if you show up to a future event that you might not get to ask a question, no, that's not the case. Not everyone that registers shows up for the event live, and then you can ask a lot of your own questions with a personal free coaching call as well. I'll let you listen into a coaching call later on, today's show. In fact, now I've shared with you a few times before that changes to mortgage rates don't follow changes in the federal funds rate that Jerome Powell and the FOMC said. I've also told you that mortgage rates closely track long term bond yields, but let me tell you about what all that really means, and this is going to help you understand and perhaps even predict the future direction of mortgage rates. In fact, it's unusual. You know, the largest market in the world is not the real estate market, it's not the stock market, it's the bond market. And What's unusual is here we are on episode 526, and we've really never discussed the bond market. Well, you're probably aware that a month and a half ago, the Fed dropped interest rates by a half point. Their next decision is in just three days. Now I don't think they should drop rates again, though they could. That's because since the rate cut, GDP and job growth have been strong. That's why I don't think they should do it. I mean, rates usually get cut to help a wounded economy, so why lower them now? I mean, recessions usually see rate cuts. But here's what even fewer people understand when the Fed cut rates a month and a half ago by a half point, why have mortgage rates soared since then? They were about 6.1% and then the Fed made their cut, and mortgage rates recently spiked up to 6.9% well, many still feel that the long term trend for all types of interest rates is lower. But you know for one thing, rates are really hard to predict. The Fed only controls short term rates. Long term rates, like the 30 year and 15 year mortgage are tied most closely to the yield on the 10 year treasury note, and here after I'll just call that the 10 year All right, so what is this and what controls it? Well, don't let that name intimidate you. This is get rich education. So let's break down each word yield on the 10 year treasury note. Yield just means interest rate. 10 years is the period of time that this loan is made for the duration the US Treasury issues them so they receive the loan and a note is an IOU. It was also known as a bond. That is what's held by the person or the entity that loaned the money, the person that loaned this money to the Treasury. It could be you yourself, or it could be a foreign nation. So you hold on to this note because you made the loan to the Treasury. That's the breakdown of every word of the phrase the yield on the 10 year treasury note. Okay, so to say it a different way, if you hold a 10 year treasury note, that is basically your receipt, your proof that you made a 10 year long IOU to our federal government and it is going to pay you an interest rate known as a yield. All right, that is the simplest explanation I can give. Well, a month and a half ago when Jerome Powell cut short term rates, the 10 year was 3.7% at that time, and at the beginning of last week, it was up to 4.2% that's the highest since July. And again, 30 year mortgage rates most closely track the 10 year all right, as you and I sort of hold hands through this together next, let's ask what made them rise. And you know, some think this is harder to understand than trying to understand why YouTube viewers constantly fall for ludicrous housing price crash videos. Okay, but relax. This is easy. When the economy gets hot, all these things tend to rise in value, real estate, stocks and also productivity rises. Employment rises. Is an inflation that tends to rise as well. Because a 10 year investor needs a real return above the rate of inflation, this yield must rise as well. That's it. You got it. You got it. So therefore, when a rosy jobs report comes out, the 10 year tends to go up. When a strong retail sales report comes out, the 10 year yield tends to go up or a high flying CPI is released, the 10 year tends to go up. And therefore, because it rose in the past month, investors have expectations for a strong economy and more persistent inflation. So conversely, expect both the yield on the 10 year treasury note and the 30 year mortgage rate to fall when the economic outlook gets more dim. It's important to understand that, like a lot of things in the stock market, yields on the 10 year they tend to be more of a reflection of future economic expectations than the current economy. And this should be pretty easy for you to remember, because when you think about it, that makes sense. Since you've lent out your money to the federal government for 10 years. I mean, you're really interested in what that 10 year future is going to look like. So yes, though this is somewhat less exciting than watching a motorcycle jump over the Grand Canyon now that you listen closely for the last few minutes. Congratulations. Now you know that the 10 year can tell you both what investors expect to happen in the future, and can tell you the direction of 30 year mortgage rates. And, yeah, I mean, this is just more the type of material that I wish someone had explained to me sooner, in a way, just like that. And you know, are you interested in doing things that at the end, they make you say, You know what, I just got 1% better this week. I mean, think about the kind of person you'll be if you make yourself just 1% better each week. Now you better understand how leverage beats compound interest and what makes mortgage rates move. Go out and vote tomorrow as far as next, listen into one of our GRE investment coaching calls. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education.

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com that's Ridgelendinggroup.com.

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Zack Lemaster 29:08

this is rent to retirement. Zach Lemaster, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 29:22

Welcome. Back to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, there will only ever be one GRE podcast episode five under 26 and you're listening to it. Let's let you listen into a coaching call between GRE investment coach Naresh and GRE follower, Brenda, and then I'll be back to wrap it up at the end.

Naresh Vissa 29:41

hey, Brenda, good to Good to see you after emailing back and forth. Thanks for setting up this call.

Brenda 29:47

Yeah, thanks, Naresh, thanks for setting up time to talk to me.

Naresh Vissa 29:49

Yeah. Well, tell me what made you schedule this call, like, Why did you hit that button saying I want to talk to the real estate investment coach?

Brenda 29:59

Yeah, well, I've seen some of the newsletters that come from GRE I'm familiar with some of the podcasts, but then I had gotten into the newsletters, and then I saw that there was an option for a free consultation to talk to you. And I thought, Well, I'm not sure what this really means, or what we talk about, or how you can help me, as far as, like, the vision, or how do I set my goals? Or what is it exactly that I would do with you with GRE, like, what kind of consultation Do you provide?

Naresh Vissa 30:29

Yeah, well, so that's you came to the right place. So let me tell you a little bit about GRE, a little bit about me, who we are, how we operate. So get rich. Education is an education company. As you know, you listen to the podcast, you read the newsletter. It's free. The podcast is free. The newsletter is free. You can go to our website, read our blog, go through past podcasts. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel, subscribe to our social media, Tiktok, Instagram, Facebook, X, you name it. That's all free content available for you, and this service, the real estate investment coaching, is completely free of charge. I know that sounds kind of crazy, but you'll never pay as a dime. I'm here to help you throughout and along your real estate investment journey. Think of me as a super connector, someone who can introduce you to all the right people, whether it's specific markets you want to invest in. Providers. There, wholesalers, flippers, lenders, appraisers, although your lender will take care of the appraiser part, if you need a second lender, financing, CPAs, attorneys, anything at all, just come to me and I can introduce you to the right people, or at least point you in the right direction. I'll try my best to do it 100% of the time. I don't, or I should say, I don't, have answers 100% of the time, but I do have answers most of the time, and I can forward you and refer you, point you in the right direction. So think of me as a super connector. Think of me as your silent partner in deals, because I get any equity in the deals who you don't have to pay anything to think of me as an advisor, a consultant. Again, this is a completely free service. There's you're not going to get like, a bill in the mail saying, Hey, you talked to Naresh five times, so you owe us $1,000 for that. Now, there's none of that. So the most common question I get after telling people this or, like, well, then, I mean, you can't be doing this for free. Like, why are you doing great? Like, like, yeah, what's the catch here? And they also have, I mean, I'm sure you're wondering, how do you make money? Well, if you listen to the podcast, if you go to our website, you'll see advertisements, sponsorships. We are paid marketing fees, advertising fees from partners. So you listen to the podcast, I'm sure you hear many of those commercials. We make our money on the back end, so we can keep services like this and our newsletter and our podcast free on the front note, like I said, GRE is not is an education company. We are not a broker or a wholesaler or a flipper or a builder or an agency or a realtor service or any of that a brokerage, where we're not of that, we're purely education, education based through our educational content or free educational coaching, which I offer too. So that's what you are. Got it .we work with all those other companies. So we can refer you to all those other types of companies that can help you on your real estate investment journey. But we are not any of those. Now me, personally, I am an investor myself. I own eight properties in southeastern United States. I got started in 2017 I bought my first property in a single family home. That was rehab. Back then, rehabs are very hot. That was what you should get in, that what made sense to get into. And I scaled pretty quickly. I went from one to eight in a matter of it's been seven years since I bought that first property, but I actually went from one to eight in a matter of more, like two and a half years, I just kind of went so I bought, like I said, southeastern United States, bought my last property in 2020 I'm saving up for my next property because I personally now only, like new construction, I rehabs have their place, certainly For certain investors. And at the time, I got six rehabs, rehab properties from 2017 to 2019 so I personally, though, am now saving up because new construction is more expensive than than rehab. So I'm saving up for my next real estate property, which is most likely going to be a new construction. So that's a little bit about my investing background. I've been a real estate coach Since 2019 came in 2021 to GRE and have run the coaching side ever since. So that's a little bit about me on the real estate side, on the coaching side. Now, my background is not in real. Real Estate. I like, I said, I got in 2017 before that, and I still do work in tech. So I worked in tech from 2000 really, from 2005 and still do work in tech. So it was through my tech work that I got involved in real estate, because I would do back end tech work for real estate companies. And doing that work, I was like, Oh, I started learning about real estate, and then I said, huh, if this doesn't seem hard or difficult. And I also got an investment coach who helped me, like I said, with that competitor, they also had investment coaches or investment counselors. So I had a coach who helped me a little bit, but that's what the coaches are for there to help investors like me, especially newbie investors, or even veteran investors. They're there to help investors with the networking part, with the who are offering the best deals, special deals, special interest rates, who's honest, who's dishonest? That's what I'm here to do. So that's a little bit about GRE About me, about my background, how our coaching program works. So now, Brenda, it's all about you. I want to hear I'm sure you have tons of questions based on what I just said, but before you ask those questions, I'm just going to start out with, how much cash do you have ready to invest? Because really, I could be of most service if you're looking to invest, otherwise, I can't really be of much service. So how much cash do you have ready to go to invest? And then I'll answer, I'll say something about that, and then I'll let you ask whatever questions you want.

Brenda 36:35

Sounds good. Just a cash ready for deployment is 100,000 but I'm assuming that doesn't all have to go to one property, right? Or depending on the property?

Naresh Vissa 36:46

Yeah, so, so is that lick? So what I should have clarified my question as how much liquid cash do you have on not like a 401, K, or properties that you have to cash out refinance, or it's just if you today, if you were to take a property and and you had cash ready to do so be $100,000 Yeah, correct. Okay, so, so a few things that's very good, because with 100,000 that gives you optionality. You can either go for a rehab property, and we have rehab property right now. Our hottest provider is in Memphis, Tennessee, and you can get a rehab property. Worst case scenario, let's just say the property, the average property, is about $100,000 and so you just put down a 25% down payment. So let's just give or take, let's say $30,000 I tell our investors. I say, Look, if you want to buy your first property, or Yeah, your first rehab property, you need at least $50,000 cash, liquid in the bank, ready to go. That's just because you want that cushion. You don't want to put all your eggs in one basket. So I say, if you want a rehab property, you need 50,000 if you want a new construction, single family 100,000 because the new constructions are going to cost you at least $240,000 at least. So if you take 25% of that, plus closing costs and cushion and everything, just if you want to be a good investor, you have to be disciplined. And you have to be disciplined enough to be able to save the 50,000 or the $100,000 if you want to make it as a real estate investor. So 50,000 for a rehab property, 100,000 for a new construction. If you want a duplex, you need, I say, a new construction duplex, which is probably our hottest new construction asset class right now in Florida, 150,000 for a new construction. Down payment or not. Down Payment task, ready to go for a new construction duplex, because those are selling for about 490,000 give or pay. So it's 50,000 for rehab that you should have in the bank. 100,001 in the bank for a new construction, single family. 150,000 for a duplex. Anything beyond that, then we can talk. You know, later you wanted a squad or something else, but that's generally what I say. And I tell, I tell investors. I say, Look, if you only have $30,000 in the thing, let's connect after you get up, because I don't want you putting all that 30,000 into a rehabbed property, whereas, who knows, maybe the economy might go into a recession and it stays vacant for six months. I don't want you to have to go through that. So let's stick to those numbers. So you said you have 100,000 so you have options. You can you can get either a rehab property or you can get a new construction. So it's completely up to you. It's about your new construction. Single family, it's completely up to you. I personally, I, like I said, I started out with the rehabs, and then I've kind of graduated up to new construction. God, they the lowest risk you can take with 100,000 is by starting with a. Be just a low price rehab where you put in $30,000 and full, you know, down payment burden, costs, everything else you put that, you know, 30 grand, if it first property, you put that 25 to 30 grand in, and you treat that as a learning experience. And you go through the experience, and if everything goes smoothly, then you can buy the second property, and you can decide whether, hey, do I want to continue with this rehab, or I'd still have enough capital for the new construction single payer. But I would start small. If you're new, if you're an advanced veteran investor who has six figure, well into the six figures in the bank, ready to go. I tell those people. I say, hey, let's just go for new construction. Let's go for the new construction. Single family. Let's go for the duplexes. Some of them have 700 $800,000 in some cases, a million dollars plus. I say, hey, let's let's just go for the quad to the construction four Plex. The incentives are great, etc, etc. So in your case, 100,000 you certainly have choices. And what I'll do after this call is, well, first I want to hear, based on what I said, What are your thoughts on anything, whether it's renew, construction versus rehab, and then what I brought up earlier about coaching?

Brenda 41:12

Yeah, I actually thank you, Naresh, I really like what you said about starting small. I have purchased two single family homes in the past, their rentals, but I never went through a coach. I just kind of did it on my own, and luckily, things worked out. But certainly having a coach and starting out small, just to kind of go through the process, it's really helpful. Here's the situation that I think is just a little bit different, and I know that this would probably be something that I talked to like a lender about. But in your experience, I actually just came from an 18 year career. Actually, I was in tech myself, but I'm now transitioned from a corporate w2 into more, but 1099, what's classified as like a independent company, you know, type of income, what has been your experience with other clients that transitioned from that type? Is it easier? Is it harder to obtain loans? Is there going to be different requirements? 25% does that still stand?

Naresh Vissa 42:13

Yeah. So I could give you a full, you know, lecture on this, or something called the housing expense ratio and something called the total obligation ratio. I'm not going to get into those details, because the lenders, I can refer you to lenders, and they can explain all that, and those ratios mean a lot to getting you pre qualified. But what I will say is, unfortunately, if you are 1099, you are at a disadvantage, because it's not steady, consistent income, unless you can show two years of steady, consistent income. I mean, really is the last for your last two years of tax return. So if it's a new 1099, gig, yep, you're gonna have to wait until you have two years of consistent high income. If you've been doing it for a while, then send your last two years. And if it's, you know, if it's looking good, then, then you'll get approved. The other option, and this is, this is not a personal question or anything, but it married couples can go together on one loan. So if this actually helped me out a lot, because my wife is a high income earner, and I have my own business, and my business does pretty well, but if you're 1099 as as you know, there are all sorts of things you can do with your tax return that are completely legal and to where you pay yourself as little as possible, so that you can cut your income tax. So in any case, that's like 1099 workers are a disadvantage for mortgage because all they care about is your pay stub, your you know, how much income did you have? So there were times when I put my wife on the mortgage and she's got a high income, and so you can put a spouse on there, and you can both do it together. Now you're allowed 10 loans per person, so if you want a spouse go on a mortgage that counts, even if it's for one mortgage, one property, that counts as one for each of you. So for two working husband and wife. For a couple where both spouses are working with good income, I say look, you'll want one spouse to do 10 properties and another spouse to do a completely different 10 mortgages. That way you can do 20 combined. Now, if you do it together, then you'll only be able to buy 10 combined because you're older than so 1099, workers. We get that question a lot, and it actually it is a problem, because the standards changed after 2008 so either wait the two years and have your consistent records to show high income, or if you already have it right now, then you can get approved.

Brenda 44:54

Got it. Got it. This would be for just conventional loans. What about other loan products? Like, I think I've heard of the DSCR loan where maybe just the rental property would cover, you know, part of the I'm not sure, like, I guess you're guaranteeing that the property will make enough money to cover the payment of the loan.

Naresh Vissa 45:12

Yeah, DSCR and loans are hard to get approved. Really, what I should do is introduce you to some of our lending partners. If you're interested. DSCR is meant more so for people who have utilized you want to use those 10 loans first, so because if you go you're going to have a higher interest rate if you go with the deal. So those DSCR loans, or Portfolio loans, are meant for people who have used their 10. Their spouse has used their 10. They've got capital low rolling in their ultra high net worth. So they're fine, okay, just get me another loan. I need the tax benefit. I need the tax break. I'm fine paying a 10% interest. So they'll go for a portfolio loan or a vsdr loan. In your case, first property, your first investment property, first turnkey we want to go for a loan.

Brenda 45:58

Got it makes sense. And then another question, so this was about the financing. But another question that I meant to ask earlier is, I know you mentioned, like, you know, I am not like a realtor or anything like that, but how does it work? Like, I'm think about when I'm purchasing a home, personally, I kind of say, hey, I want to three bedrooms, four bedrooms, this many baths. Like, how does that work with you? Like, do I give you criteria of what I'm looking for, or, you know, based on my goals? Do you kind of craft a plan? How does that work?

Naresh Vissa 46:29

Yeah, so I actually sent you an email just right before this call it. I think you got the email, and it includes a link to about 20% of our inventory. It's not all of our inventory. That inventory is just there. To get you started to see the types of properties that we have available. We have some constructions and the markets that we cover, again, it's only about 20% of the inventory. If you go to our GRE marketplace, you can see all of the markets that we cover. Your biggest source will be, I send out emails. So your biggest source will be, if I email you, I'll email you like a property. It'll be, Hey, I just came across this deal. It's like, it's my VIP email list. So you'll get my, you know, VIP emails, and that's going to be your, your best source. You also get Keith white holds newsletter, which promotes properties from time to time and and we only promote the best. We there are hundreds of properties we can promote. We only distill it down to the best of the best. So don't think, oh, like, there might be another property that narration knows about. Now we promote through our social media, through my email list, through Keith's newsletter, through the podcast, through the webinars, the best of the best. So that's the best way to to find out,

Brenda 47:49

got it your inventory or what you currently right,

Naresh Vissa 47:52

and with your permission, I can add you to my VIP email list. If it's okay, yeah, that would be cool. I'll go ahead and add you, and you'll start getting those emails in real time. I only send out an email maybe once every three weeks, so I really only want to send the best of the best. I want to waste people's time.

Brenda 48:07

Great. So what if you do send me an email and I'm like, Yeah, I love it. I think this is fits exactly what I'm looking for. Do I email you back? Do I contact you? Like, how do we stay in contact?

Naresh Vissa 48:18

So email is the best form of communication, because in real estate and business in general, we want documentation of everything. We don't want any miscommunications. So if you see something you like, email me. I'm available. You have my phone number. You can text me, you can call me, you can email me. I'm very accessible, but email is preferred, because that way it's in writing, and I'll know exactly what you want, the address, everything. So let's say you see a property that you like from an email that you get from Keith or from me, and you email me to say, hey, I'm interested. What are next steps? I will get you in touch with the actual like I said, we're just an education company. I'll get you in touch with the actual builder or the broker or the agent on the property, and they'll be able to answer way more questions than I can answer way more and that that's for anything. If your question is about financing, I can get you in touch with several good, low rate lenders, and they can answer all your questions about financing. Your question is CPA Tax stuff. I can get we have, uh, several good contacts who can help you out there as well.

Brenda 49:20

Got it, got it. So then what, what does our communication look like from there? Like, do if I say yes, I want it, then you get me in contact with them, and then I kind of work with whoever it is that has this property. And then hopefully we just close on the property. And that's it, right? Am I understanding that correctly?

Naresh Vissa 49:40

Sure? So, so all correctly? Yeah, I'll refer you over to them, and they will, they will take care of you. Should copy me on all emails that way. Okay, what's going on? Copy, you remember, I'm your coach. I'm here to help you, like it's free, so copy to an email so I know what's going on. If there's a problem, I can jump in. In many cases, I hold a leverage over a lot of these. People, if a problem happens, I can step in and say, Hey, treat her better. Or, you know, you should waive this cost, or whatnot. So copy, because the people who get into trouble are the people who didn't copy me on the emails. And many, many time, time just goes by, and then they come with their problem as they Hey, if you came to me a year ago, I could have actually helped you with this. Now, the statutes expired, and it's, it's a complete mess. So always, even after you're done posing on the property and you have a tenant in there and just copy me on me.

Brenda 50:30

Got it. Okay, So kind of bring you along the journey. Okay, so let's say I'm at the end, like, do these providers help me? I'm assuming in some of these cases, you've mentioned places that are far from where I live. So do they help provide additional resources, like, who's going to manage my property, or who's going to find me a tenant? Like, could they help me with that?

Naresh Vissa 50:51

Absolutely. So the entire point of GRE of this investment coaching program, the entire point is so that you can become what's called a laptop landlord. You can literally live free and have just take a step back and have your properties run on their own. So the idea is not for you to invest down the street and become a property manager and a landlord down the street. It's you can be anywhere in the world. Buy properties anywhere. Like I said, I live in Florida, but by Prop, I've never visited any of my properties. I've never met a tenant. So that's what you want to do, and that's what we help people do. If you want to buy a property across the street and become you can do that yourself. Go through all the loops yourself. We are here to help you invest in Ohio, in Tennessee, in Florida and Texas and all these places that you may not have even visited every other life, but you can still have a very fruitful investment journey. So we set all that up for you, the property management, every all that it's going to be taken care of, so that your hands off. That's why it's called turnkey real estateReal real estate investing.

Brenda 51:56

Got it. Okay, sounds good. And typically, how long does this process take? I mean, I'm sure it's different for everybody, but what can I expect, like from beginning, from when I talk to you, to when hopefully I have a property that I'm signing off on?

Naresh Vissa 52:12

In some cases, it's literally taken two days. In other cases, it's taken there's not even an answer, because people did end up buying Okay, yeah, so, so, yeah, in in the case of, like, our Memphis burr properties, which are rehab properties in Memphis, I recommend that you watch our burr webinar. I can send that to you after this call, if you'd like. But I had people who watched the webinar talk to me. I introduced them that same day to the provider in Memphis. They talk to their provider in Memphis, and then the next day, they pick the property, and the day after that, they sign a contract. Oh, okay, so it's all about the investor. If you're a serious investor, it can be very quick, like me, I was very serious. That's why I scaled. I bought eight and two and a half years, eight properties in two and a half years. Other people, if you want to take your time, it could, you could literally take your time and never buy any and a lot of people are doing that, because in 2019 they said, Oh, you know what, I'm gonna wait. There's gonna be a crash and this and that. And so they waited, they waited, and prices skyrocketed, and now they said, You know what, I'm I'm priced out of the market, so I'm just not gonna invest in real estate anymore.

Brenda 53:16

Yeah, it's that analysis paralysis. I've experienced that. Yeah, yeah, got it. Okay, cool.

Naresh Vissa 53:23

All right. So any other questions?

Brenda 53:25

No, this is really helpful. It's kind of good to know, like, kind of where you step in and kind of where you hand off, and again, the timeline is different for everybody, but it's kind of good to know that I could literally be standing here two days later and have a property if I want. So good.

Naresh Vissa 53:42

Yeah. So as we end this call, next step, so I told you about new construction versus rehab. Are you? Are you interested in both, or leaning towards one or the other? Right now? Just

Brenda 53:54

probably the rehabs, because I think, like what you said, I like the idea of the E step into like, let me see how this process goes first before kind of committing a bigger chunk of capital to something larger. Yeah, I agree.

Naresh Vissa 54:06

Okay, so here's what I'm going to do as next steps. I'm going to send you a link to the webinar we did for our hottest rehab asset class right now, hottest rehab provider out of Memphis. It's the Memphis Burkey webinar. I went ahead and just emailed that to you. So watch that webinar. It will answer like every question imaginable regarding the provider, how they do their process, the properties, everything. So watch that webinar and then shoot me an email after you're done with the webinar on what you're thinking just you can watch webinar today and you want to shoot me an email right after, just let me know what you're thinking, and we can go from there. I think that's would be the next step. Just watch that webinar, and then we'll, we'll reconnect.

Brenda 54:54

Sounds good? Okay, I like that.

Naresh Vissa 54:57

Okay, very good. Well, I sent that link to you, and. And that's about it. If you have no more questions like I said, you can add my phone number to your phone book and feel free to reach out whatever you want.

Brenda 55:07

will do. Thank you so much.

Naresh Vissa 55:09

All right, thank you. It was great.

Keith Weinhold 55:11

Yeah, I hope that you found that helpful in making America rich again. Namely, you. Of course, no two coaching calls are the same. Some GRE followers will perhaps have more questions than Brenda did. There. We are here to learn your situation. We know the mistakes you've got to avoid, and we can connect you with the best income property for you across the nation. We really filter it down to the best of the best, and besides being a truly free coaching call, we don't try to upsell you to a paid course or anything like that, because we don't even have any product to sell really. So even if you wanted to buy something from GRE, I don't know if you could, maybe unless you buy a GRE logo t shirt from our website or something like that. So keep all of your funds for the property down payment. As far as now, you can book a coaching call at GREmarketplace.com and select the free investment coaching area. Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 3 56:21

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,

Keith Weinhold 56:41

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get rich, education.com
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525: Immigration Surge Tightens Housing Demand, How to Avoid Paying State Income Tax
28 okt· Get Rich Education
Keith highlights the unprecedented surge in immigration and its impact on housing demand. The conversation also covers state income tax policies, noting that nine states have no income tax, and the impact of international tax laws on US citizens abroad.

Immigrants now make up more than 14% of the US population, the highest proportion since 1910.

The US is facing a significant housing shortage, with an estimated 4.5 million housing units needed.

Housing shortages are expected to continue, with homelessness rates rising by 12% year over year.

Learn about the challenges of being a US citizen living abroad and the potential for double taxation.

Resources:

Connect with Tom's team at WealthAbility for a free consultation on permanently reducing taxes.

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

welcome to GRE I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, both an immigrant surge and a big wave of US born residents is tightening housing demand near unprecedented levels. Then we're joined by show regular Tom terrific again, but it's not Tom Brady on how to legally avoid paying state income tax and the fact that if you're from the US, if you move out, you must still pay tax on your worldwide income, plus more tax strategies that you can benefit from today on Get Rich Education.

Speaker 1 0:34

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show, guess who? Top Selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com

Corey Coates 1:20

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:36

Welcome to GRE from Athens Georgia to Athens, Greece and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, get rich education. Founder, Forbes real estate council member, best selling. Author, long time real estate investor and holder of a humble bachelor's degree in geography from a college in Pennsylvania that nobody's ever heard of. It's that time of year where you now have Halloween decorations in your front yard competing hard for space with political campaign signs. What's your HOA gonna do now? Welcome in this slack shot operation right here is the get rich education podcast. I think you know that by now it's episode 525

Brace yourself, immigration has absolutely exploded. I've got the latest numbers on that, and there's a chart recently published in The Wall Street Journal that shows it all legal and illegal. We're a real estate platform, so the question I'm asking is, Where in the heck are we going to house all of these people? In addition to soaring immigration, we'll look at our own domestic US born surging population that are forming households now, and that part might have flown under your radar. This is an urgent issue. All of this isn't just coming. It is already here, this explosion of housing demand, it will indelibly shape both broader society and real estate's supply demand component for decades, it is really approaching the unprecedented we look at net immigration to the US since 2000 it's really these past four years where the numbers have shot up like a rocket through 2020 immigration averaged around 1.2 million people per year, but since 2021 it has more than doubled to around two and a half million net immigrants per year. But the number of illegals arriving among them has gone up as much as 10x starting in 2021 and the overall figures they keep rising. Last year, there were over 3 million immigrants, about three times the total number that we averaged in the first 20 years of this century. So a 3x total net inflow, legal and illegal. And these figures in the Wall Street Journal chart, they are sourced by the CBO. Now you might think that the immigrants that did not enter legally could eventually get deported, but some of them that are already living and working here, gained something called Temporary Protected Status that keeps them here. Well, our central question remains, Where in the heck are we going to house all of these immigrants in a nation of almost three 40 million people? Do you have any idea what our foreign born population is up to now, okay, so not the descendants of those people, just the foreign born population here now, out of the 340 million total US population, any guess? Venture a guess. Last year, the US foreign born population reached 47.8 million. And that figure 47 point 8 million, that is five times more than in 19 75x Do you even realize that's almost double the population of the entire continent of Australia, now crammed into the states. That's how many immigrants, 47.8 million is. It's also the same as the population of all of Spain. That's another way of saying it all in the US today. And by the way, that is my geography degree at work, right there. Hey, the geography muscle is one that I just don't get to flex enough. Immigrants now make up more than 14% of the population. That is one in seven Americans. And that proportion, right there is the most since 1910, per Pew Research. Well, where are the immigrants from? Alright? Before I get into that, if we go back about 60 years, immigrant growth accelerated after Congress made changes to US immigration laws in 1965 that was a key year before 1965 the law favored immigrants from Northern and Western Europe, and it mostly barred immigration from Asia, all right, Well, so here in modern times, where are immigrants from? Mexico is the top country in 2022, 10.6, million immigrants living in the US were born there. That is almost a quarter of all immigrants. And then the next largest origin groups in order are those from India, China, the Philippines, and then El Salvador. All right, so there are a lot of new immigrants here, like a demographic shock wave that's going to drive the demand for housing. But there's way more to this housing crunch story. Combine this nascent immigration influx along with America's own high birth rate years. And this is something that you might not be aware of, though, what I just talked about that might have been somewhat informative to you. You probably had some idea that immigration is higher now, because it's been in the news cycle for a few years here, but something that you probably don't know. And yes, fertility rates are down today, but there was a boom of US born residents from the years 1990 to 2010 and then you might say, well, so what 1990 to 2010 that was in the past? But no, actually, it is just the beginning, because when it comes to housing, it has less to do with the birth year. Currently, what you have to do is add perhaps 25 or 35 years to that birth year, because that's the age of when that person tends to start their own household. And the average age of today's first time homebuyer is 35 to 36 years old. Well, the US is peak birth year occurred in 2007 then adds 35 or so to it. And that means that, on average, they will buy their first home in the early 2040s and a lot of them were going to start renting in the 2020s and 2030s So suffice to say, a lot more Americans will need homes. Well, what else will those high birth years from 1990 to 2010 mean now and into the future? Realize that over 13,000 Americans are turning 35 every single day, both now and years in to the future, record highs. Yes, every single day, just another demographic figure that's on the rise, and there are deaths to account for as well. But the population aging into home ownership is projected to exceed the population aging out like with deaths for a long time, this will pump housing demand. The US has about 144 million housing units today, and we are going to need more housing of all types. Well, between all the fresh immigration I discussed and this US born surge, you've indubitably got the recipe for a ridiculous amount of demographic driven housing demand. And you know, maybe over the past few years, at times, you or some of your friends or family, they've wondered why housing prices have risen fast, why rents have risen fast, and why? Even a tripling of mortgage rates couldn't stop it. It could only slow it down. It's because of this demand that is just coming, and it's going to keep on coming from both the US born demographic surge and an immigrant surge. And here's the thing, as we know this is all amidst a still lackluster US housing supply today, so greater demand, yet still a meager supply. Zillow estimates that we're still four and a half million housing units short, and the housing deficit is growing, although other outlets have estimates that, you know, they really are all over the place. These estimates as to how great the shortage is, 3 million is probably closer to a good amalgamation of how severe the housing shortage is, all right. Well, how do we reduce the housing deficit? We need to start more construction, but it had its recent peak in 2022 and it's fallen since then, in single family homes, because builders faced higher interest rates then and new apartment building starts, they have fallen too. And two years ago we had a lot of apartment building starts, actually. And as you drive through major cities today, you might still see cranes in the air. You still see a lot of active apartment building construction, actually, but more of those projects began two years ago. They began to freeze as interest rates rose, and now they've just got to complete what they've already begun. It can be two years from an apartment construction start to a completion. So as some of these complete, there will be some absorption time there on apartments. But the starts are way down on apartments. This year, we should have at least double the number of apartment starts being started than what we have now. So this sets us up for more future shortages, regulation and zoning. We know that that slows down building for most any housing type, single family, homes, apartments, condos, whatever it is. And nimbyism is a condition that's especially pervasive in the construction of new apartment buildings. Neighbors don't perceive new single family homes as a threat in their neighborhood like they do apartments, whether that's warranted or not. That's how people feel. That's the sentiment. That's the type of neighbor that shows up at a public meeting and speaks out against new apartment buildings. So to summarize what you've learned so far, it's really the confluence of four housing factors coming together here, two of them for higher demand and two for lower supply. The two for higher demand are more immigrants and a surge of US born people from 1990 to 2010 that are just starting to get old enough to need their own place. That's the higher demand side. And then the two factors on the paltry supply side are both a lack of current supply and not enough building for the future. Either it is an increasingly dire situation, and it can even be in your face. Actually. How is it in your face? Well, it's one reason that you see more homeless people on the street in your nearest city, although you might see more US born homeless than you do immigrant homeless. HUD tells us that the homelessness rate has jumped 12% year over year. That's the fastest homelessness increase rate they've ever reported. I talked to you about that before, and I'm waiting for HUD to release their new number in December. They released that annually. You know, amidst this demand, supply imbalance, in fact, anymore, let's look at it this way. Let's flip the script. Consider what could possibly stop insatiable US housing demand from exceeding supply for decades. And when you do, when you think about what could stop that, it starts to get absurd a sudden, new construction technology that pumps out homes like a popcorn machine, climate change that roasts us into human popcorn, not the good kind, and AI or VR, so advanced that We're all going to live inside some sort of force field. How about an even worse pandemic, or even a world war that would have to kill at least 10s of millions of people, or something like that, or aliens or asteroids destroying Earth? Or how about a depression level economic contraction. But see all these scenarios that would derail the housing demand trend. They range from the pretty unlikely to the downright ludicrous. Starts to sound like a Sci-fi flick, and amidst a lot of those afflictions, your life's biggest concern wouldn't be your real estate investment portfolio. It would be primordial human survival. Now, before I summarize your big takeaway here, let me tell you immigration, it has near term downsides, like a lack of housing and a demand for public assistance. And yes, I know a huge pack of new immigrants can appear sort of like a Walmart at first glance, huge, chaotic and full of people that seem like they've given up on life.

But that is certainly not always the case. A lot of immigrants are ambitious long term new young people drive an economy. Immigrants have long been a backbone of innovation. A lot of our tech giants were started by immigrants or their children, and also a lot of immigrants find those construction jobs that can help us build our way out of the housing shortage crisis, but that is going to take a long time. The bottom line here is that if you're looking for your own home, waiting probably won't help. As an investor, own more properties now, own lots of rental housing, you're going to have something that everybody needs. Housing demand is expected to exceed supply well into the future. Both this US born surge of people and the immigrants, what they do is they tend to be renters for years before they become buyers, if they ever become buyers, from here today, it's a realistic scenario to expect then soaring real estate prices, higher rents and lofty occupancy rates for years.

Well, Tom terrific is back in the house, and we are talking taxes. Brady's in the gun bulletin to his left. He's got the hoo man on the right wing with Dobson to the right Collie and Tomkins left. Brady throws it to the end zone for kenbrell Tompkins. Leaping. Kenbrell Tompkins, Brady's back.

That's your quarterback. Show ponies, where's the beat? All right, that's enough. Scott zolak, Bob Sochi on the call there 95 the sports hub in Boston. No Tom. Brady is not the Tom terrific that we often have here. Brady simply doesn't know enough about taxes. We've got the tax expert with us, the extraordinary Tom. We're right. What about that spirited play call at the end there? Did he say unicorns show ponies? Where's the beef? I don't really get all that. So getting back to real estate and taxes here, look, here's the thing, when you see what your government spends money on, and you're disgusted by some of these spending programs, doesn't that give you a supreme motivation to want to reduce your taxes? Well, we're going to talk about state income taxes where they're high where they're low. There are currently nine income tax free states. Are more states looking to drop their income tax to zero and join them? Or is it going the other direction, where they're looking to raise them if you live in one state and invest in another. We'll get into how that looks too. Canadian listeners, sorry, we don't plan to have provincial income tax discussion today. Now, I seem to have become here no more for my real estate investing voice than anything else. Last month, I was in Pennsylvania for a while, and I ran into one of my high school teachers. He was the art teacher, but he also taught a class called journalism in publications. That was an elective class, and I took that class as a high school student. I think I was a senior then, well, our job was to lay out the yearbook, writing, positioning and centering this text here in that image over there. Well, I told my old journalism and publications teacher that he's been a substantial influence on me because, as you know, I write our Don't quit your Daydream letter to you about every week. And I just love doing that, I've always thought of myself as more of a writer than a talker, and I myself really enjoy writing and laying out the body and images of our newsletter and sending it to you about weekly on crucial information that you must know About, real estate investing, economics and wealth mindset. It's got a dash of humor, and every single letter can be read in less than five minutes, often less than three minutes. I would love to have you as one of our 1000s of weekly readers, and it is free. You can get it simply by texting GRE to 6866. come along and join us for real estate investing information and fun. Just take a moment and do it right now while it's on your mind. Text, GRE to 6686 lots more. Straight ahead. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get Rich education.

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage, you can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com, that's ridgelendinggroup.com.

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Chris Martenson 21:42

this is peak prosperity's Chris Martinson. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 21:58

This week's guest is, to me, the world's foremost tax pro. He is an international authority on how you can permanently reduce your taxes, and he really makes taxes easy, fun and understandable, like no one else that I've ever met does. He runs a terrific educational platform too. It's called wealth ability. Welcome back to get rich education. Tom, we're right.

Tom Wheelwright 22:21

Thanks, Keith, always good to be here.

Keith Weinhold 22:23

Yeah, it's so good to have you back, because taxes are such a dynamic topic. And one place where I wonder if it's going to be dynamic, Tom, is we have a number of states that don't have any state income tax, which is something that people have to pay on top of their federal income tax. Federal alone can be up to 37% some of the states with the fastest population growth, like Tennessee, Florida and Texas, don't have any state income tax. So what I'm wondering, Tom is, are more states considering abolishing the income tax like those states have done.

Tom Wheelwright 22:59

We've actually seen a lot of states in the last couple of years reduced their income tax rates. So Arizona, where I live, is one of them. We went from over a potential tax rate of like eight and a half percent potential to an actual tax rate of 5% there was actually a proposal passed that would have increased it down to a tax rate of two and a half percent. Our former governor, Doug Ducey, his goal was to abolish the income tax in Arizona, and we did get down to two and a half percent. There are a number of states, typically in the middle of the country. You don't see any states on the coasts doing this, outside of Florida, that are reducing their tax rates. So you do see states doing that. You see other states that are increasing their tax rates. Recently, I was reading about Bill Belichick, and he said, Massachusetts is always hard getting the top earners, the top free agents, into New England. Because he says, This is taxachusetts, because they have a surtax on millionaires. Well, of course, all football players are millionaires. That is an issue. People are leaving states like California, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, and they're moving to low tax states such as Arizona, Texas, Florida and, you know, the whole southern belt.

Keith Weinhold 24:15

with Belichick having Tom Brady. It didn't matter if he couldn't bring in the best players, because Tom Brady made stars out of nobodies. It seems like he could complete a pass to any no name wide receiver or tight end for two decades there in New England. But can you tell us more about maybe interesting dynamics with state income tax? For example, I know that California has punitively high state income taxes, and then you have other states that have tax rate tables and some that have flat taxes, like, I think Pennsylvania has about a 3% flat income tax. Colorados is 4.4 so can you tell us more?

Tom Wheelwright 24:51

Yeah, there are, you know, the federal income tax has graduated rates. We go, actually, from a zero rate to currently a 37% rate, which is not really 37% rate. It's really 41% because there's a 4% add on tax that pretty much you're gonna pay. So it's really over 40% California has a graduated tax rate, but it goes up to 13% Minnesota has a high income tax. New York has a high income tax. So Massachusetts, we're seeing high income taxes. The states that provide have big governments and provide lots of services have high tax rates. That's why we see it on the coasts. Interesting enough. Minnesota. Minnesota is the liberal state in the middle of the country, and so they have liberal states tend to have very high tax rates, and conservative states tend to have very low tax rates.

Keith Weinhold 25:45

Now we have a lot of real estate investors here that have learned that the best deals are outside their home state. So that investor might be domiciled in a Minnesota, but investing in, say, Arkansas, tell us about how the state income tax affects them.

Tom Wheelwright 25:59

So it's kind of like being a US citizen, right? You live in the US. You're taxed on your worldwide income. You live in Minnesota. You're taxed on your worldwide income in Minnesota. So by virtue of where your residency is, you are taxed on all of your income. Now you'll get a credit, typically, for taxes paid to another state. Well, let's say that your tax rate in your state is 10% and then you invest in a state with a tax rate of 3% well you're going to get tax credit of 3% so you're still going to pay 7% in your state, plus 3% that state. You're still going to pay your 10% it's just going to be some of that's going to go to another state. Some of it's going to go to your state. But in total, your tax rate is likely to be wherever you live. That's youroverall state tax rate. I'll give you another example. Let's say that you invest in Texas, you live in in Minnesota, you're going to pay Minnesota tax rates on your income, you get no credit because you have no tax in Texas. What's worse is, though, you have property tax in Texas, but you don't get a credit in Minnesota for your property tax paid in Texas. So you have much higher property taxes in Texas than you do in most states. Right? Because every state has to raise revenue, right? In Texas has decided to it largely on sales tax and property tax. So that means that you don't get that offset. Property taxes are pretty serious in Texas. If you're an investor in Texas, you know that property taxes are pretty serious, but you don't get any kind of benefit in Minnesota, but you still pick up the income in Minnesota.

Keith Weinhold 27:38

In some Texas jurisdictions, property taxes can be 3% annually based on the property's value, pretty punitive. There in Texas, Texas is a good example. That's where we have often high property tax rates, but zero state income tax. So with these other states that have zero state income tax, are they subsidizing that with property taxes or sales taxes, or in what other way are they making up that?

Tom Wheelwright 28:03

Of course, for example, we were talking earlier about Tennessee. Tennessee doesn't have a personal income tax, but if you have your real estate owned through a limited liability company, you do have a 6% tax on the income of the LLC. So even though it's a pass through entity for Tennessee purposes, it's taxed. They have all sorts of mechanisms to raise revenue. All states need revenue. Now, some states raise less revenue per capita than other states. Those are the states that people tend to move to. But don't forget those other taxes. I mean, sales taxes. Sales taxes can be very high, right? And you pay sales taxes typically don't pay them on food or prescription drugs, but you typically pay them on pretty much everything else, and including leasing a car, they're going to get their money. It's just how they get their money.

Keith Weinhold 28:50

Well, we've been talking about ways that you could potentially legally escape taxation, depending on what state that you live in. So in a domestic sense, and Tom we pull back and we think about that in an international sense. A lot of Americans don't seem to realize that if they're, I guess, born and raised and get citizenship in the United States when they become an adult and get older and they go abroad, they have to continue to pay US taxes if they move to Norway or Dubai. Can you tell us about that?

Tom Wheelwright 29:21

Yeah, so US citizens are taxed on worldwide income as long as they're a US citizen. Here's what's really interesting in the US let's say you give up your US citizenship, you're still subject to taxes on your worldwide income for 10 years. Wow, after you give up your citizenship so you no one get any of the benefits of being a citizen. You've given that up, and you still have taxes for 10 years. Earlier this year, we did an episode, and we talked a little bit about this unrealized capital gains tax, right? People don't think, well, I'll just leave. Doesn't work that way. You're still going to have the capital gains tax for at least 10 years, and the only way to get rid of it is to give up your citizenship and wait 10 years. It's a pretty restrictive law, because most countries only tax if you live there, if you're a citizen of France, but you move to Belgium, you're taxed in Belgium, you're not taxed in France. Not true with us.

Keith Weinhold 30:19

Yeah, that's remarkable. I didn't know about that 10 year thing. Even if you renounce your citizenship, those taxes will follow you for 10 years regardless of where else in the world you live. Um, I'm just maybe this is a little bit of devil's advocate. I mean, this sounds preposterous when we first think about how Americans are taxed abroad for the rest of their life, but maybe thinking of it philosophically, if it does make sense in any way, which is really hard for me to say, but maybe it's because, okay, well, you were born and raised in the United States, where we have this very mature infrastructure and stable currency and good educational system, so you got to be a beneficiary of that. So when you're 30, you can't move away and never give us any tax money to support that. Again, what are your thoughts with that?

Tom Wheelwright 31:02

different countries have different tax systems? What I will say is, just like the state discussion, you do get a credit for taxes paid to another country. So if you have income taxes, let's say you're living in Portugal and you pay Portuguese income taxes, you're not going to pay taxes twice. You're going to pay the higher of the two rates, either the Portuguese tax rate or the US tax rate, but you should not be paying tax twice. Now, if you're going to do that, you need a really good team of tax professionals. You need a good US tax professional, and you need a good tax professional where you live, and those two tax professionals need to talk to each other on a regular basis, because otherwise you can end up paying double tax, and that is the worst of all worlds. You do not want to end up paying double tax. So make sure that just know that if you're going to invest in another country, or you're going to live in another country, you need double the tax advice.

Keith Weinhold 31:05

I am just going to speculate that there are an awful lot of people that don't consider taxes before they move, whether that's domestic or international, not that that should be the top consideration, but a lot of people probably aren't even thinking about it.

Tom Wheelwright 32:13

A lot of people aren't. That's true. Now, are there ways to reduce your taxes internationally, particularly if you're in business? Yes, there are ways that you can reduce your taxes. So know that there is still tax planning available. But I hear about people saying, I'm going to invest in the Dominican Republican, or I'm going to invest in Dubai, or I'm going to invest somewhere else. Just know that you've got now two sets of laws that you're working with you're working with US laws, and you're working with that country's laws. And so make sure that you've got good advisory on both sides. When we're talking about moving for tax considerations, we should cover Puerto Rico. Tell us about the advantageous tax laws for Puerto Rico, and if they're going to sunset, they're there for the foreseeable future. So Puerto Rico, depending on how you earn your income, you can potentially reduce your income tax rate from the current 37% rate in the US to 4% yeah, that's basically an agreement with Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is still the US, but it's got special laws that it's almost like a treaty, right? Even though it's a territory of the US. And what happens is, is that if you set it up properly, you got to live there, by the way, you can't just pretend. You got to live there six months in a day out of the year, over six months a year. And if you do, then you get a 4% tax rate on the income you earn while you're in Puerto Rico. If you earn income while you're in the mainland, you're going to pay tax on the mainland, but the income you earn in Puerto Rico, you're going to pay 4% tax. And there are certain types of income that that works for certain types of income, it doesn't just make sure that this is one where you need a Puerto Rican tax advisor as well as your US tax advisor. Capital Gains also have they have a potential tax rate of zero. So there are obviously details you have to follow again, make sure, before you get into that, know that there are huge tax benefits for living in Puerto Rico. No question. You know, it's the Puerto Rican discount. What can I say? We say in Arizona that California has a beach tax and we have a desert discount. The same was true in Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico has a Puerto Rican discount. That's what it is.

Keith Weinhold 34:24

Yeah, you're going to be getting on a plane a lot in order to go anywhere. I know an awful lot of entrepreneurs that have relocated to Puerto Rico. You do too. Tom, you the listener, probably do as well. It's really important to have the right team before you make such considerations. And before we're done today, Tom and I will talk about how you can connect with him and learn more. But Tom, since we last had you here, you updated your terrific book, which I have on my bookshelf called Tax Free Wealth. Tell us about the updates and changes you made to the book.

Tom Wheelwright 34:56

We do a new edition of tax free wealth every time there's a major change in the tax law. So the second edition was the 2017 tax law, because that was a major change. Since 2017 though we've had six major changes to the tax law, we had a bunch of major tax law changes during COVID And so what we did was we actually took the 2017 and all the new ones, werolled them all into a new edition. By far. This is the best edition of tax free wealth by a long shot. I mean, I think tax free wealth, you know, got good bones to it. It's a good book. Got almost 4005 star reviews on Amazon. This is the one I like the best, by far.

Keith Weinhold 35:18

Tax Free wealth, I read the original edition, and it's not like watching motorcycles jump off ramps, but for a tax book, it's actually really a good read there. He really brings life and some good examples to how you can permanently reduce your taxes. Tom, you and your terrific firm wealth ability have been helping people do that for years. If you the listener, want to Tom's team and Tom's referral network to help you permanently reduce your taxes. We have a resource for you atget rich education.com/taxwe can actually set up a free consultation to confirm if indeed they can help you in your situation. And Tom, why don't you talk to us some more about the importance of having the right tax pro on your team, and how they're not actually an expense, but really they're an incentive to you, because the fastest way to get an ROI is actually by reducing your taxes, because it can be done almost instantly.

Tom Wheelwright 35:36

Yeah, for sure. And what's important is that you have a relationship with a tax advisor that does give you tax advice. That's why it's called a tax advisor. They actually give you tax advice, and they willing to give it to you. And they're not waffling. They're not saying, Well, I don't know, or they're not backing off. They're saying, Well, look, if you do this, this is what you get. You have to choose whether you want to make those changes to your situation, but they're going to give you, you know, what changes you can make to your facts in order to reduce your taxes. I think the most important thing, though, is that you have a partnership with your CPA, that this is a true relationship. And we've actually changed the way we work with clients. We used to charge for projects. We used to charge for tax returns. What we want is a relationship, so we basically charge a monthly fee for the relationship. So that's a recent change in our model, you're going to see more and more CPAs go to that model, because it is a much more comfortable model for both the CPA and for the client. But what we want to do is we want to emphasize the relationship. We don't want you to feel like every time you pick up the phone, you're going to get charged. We don't want you to feel like, well, all that tax return fee is just killing me. No, it's not a tax return fee, it's a monthly fee. It's an annual fee, billed monthly, is what it is. And that way you have something come up, you don't have to worry about them and get a bill for it. You have even an IRS audit come up. Once you're a client with us for a year. After the first year, we'll then allow you to pay a small monthly fee so that when you get audited, you won't pay us for handling the audit. We call that an audit defense plan. I talk about that in tax free wealth. To me, we've been operating this way. So my firm, which I worked with people like Robert Kiyosaki, we've been operating this way for several years, and it is the best way to work with a tax advisor, because you always have that relationship, and you never have to worry. I'm not going to get this big tax bill, this big fee, like you do for an attorney, right? You don't call your attorney, because you can get a big fee, right? Every minute it's going to be a big fee. This is a great way to work with a tax advisor and make sure that you can be proactive, and they can be proactive. It's really a great way to help build the relationship over time, which is something that you're going to want to have over time again. If you want to learn more and have that free consultation, you can start at get rich education.com/tax.

Keith Weinhold 38:56

Tom, it's been valuable as always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.

Tom Wheelwright 38:59

Thanks, Keith.

Keith Weinhold 39:06

Nine states don't have an earned income tax. Alaska, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Washington and Wyoming. And the way to avoid state income tax is clearly to start by living in one of those states. I don't believe that moving to one just for tax reasons, is a good idea, though, like I was saying earlier, do you agree with how your government is spending your tax dollars? If you don't, then you owe it to yourself to reduce your tax burden, otherwise, you are just helping to fuel reckless spending. And when you lower your tax burden, not only do you stop fueling reckless spending, of course, you increase your own personal return on investment. You know in fact. This paying any more tax than you have to fuel a kleptocracy. I think it's at least worth asking the question then, because this is get rich education, little learning moments, some vocab rehab. Here, you can think of a kleptocracy as being synonymous with a fevocracy. The strict definition of a kleptocracy is a government whose corrupt leaders use political power to expropriate the wealth of the people and land they govern, typically by embezzling or expropriating government funds at the expense of the wider population. All right, well, is that a little too strong for the behavior of our elected leaders or not? I'll let you decide that. But see, most of the 1000s of pages of the US tax code does not outline the taxes that you have to pay. Did you realize that the vast majority of the IRS Code is a guidebook to help you reduce your taxes that are in those tax tables. Well, now my own tax return is hundreds of pages long, and a lot of it outlines how my taxes have been reduced for that tax year. Well, Tom's excellent book called tax free wealth is sort of a digestible way to make the reading more fun than any psycho that would read the entire IRS tax code, but to make it even easier than that, it's really a good opportunity to connect with Tom's team and see exactly how they can help you reduce your tax In your specific situation, and is especially helpful for real estate investors and business owners. You know that I often like to leave you with something actionable. You can book a free consult at getrich education.com/tax that's get richeducation.com/tax.

Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

Speaker 2 42:06

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 42:34

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com you
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524: How is Your Tenant Doing? and Creative Deal Structuring with Zero Down Payment
21 okt· Get Rich Education
Join our upcoming GRE live event right here! - ‘New Turnkey Properties with ZERO Money Down’ on Thursday 10/24.

Keith discusses the financial health of tenants, noting that 75% of new renters earn over $75,000 annually. He is joined by GRE Investment Coach Naresh Vissa to highlight the incentives offered by new build property providers, including interest rates in the 4's and up to $30,000 in immediate equity.

New build homes now cost only 1% more than resale homes.

Rent-to-income ratios remain stable at 31%, despite wage growth outpacing rent growth.

Current market conditions offer a unique opportunity to build wealth through real estate.

Attend the live online event on Thursday, October 24 at 8pm Eastern to learn more about the new build property incentives.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, we check in on the health of your tenant. How are they doing financially? Learn why new build homes now cost about the same as existing homes. Then learn about creative financing and how to put zero money down on an income property today on Get Rich Education.

Speaker 1 0:26

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold, writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show. Guess who keep top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 1:11

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 1:27

Welcome to GRE from Lewiston, Maine to Lewiston, Idaho and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. Don't live below your means. Grow Your means, you need a proven wealth building vehicle that pays you multiple ways, like real estate or a business, because in order to build legacy wealth, otherwise, how many Papa John's coupons are you going to have to collect that's living below your means, something that's not sustainable long term, not where you want to be. And you know something your first million that takes a while for you to reach a net worth of a million dollars, that can take over 30 years, like the first 30 plus years of your life. Let's say then you are age 32 until you reach the million dollar mark. Well, your next million Okay, so a $2 million net worth, that's not going to take you another 32 years, but maybe, if your sole source of income is trading your time for dollars at a job, you won't hit the $2 million net worth Mark until age 40 to 45 but instead, if you've got leveraged rental property, ah, now you've got other people's money working for you, and a 5x multiplier on your skin in the game, and that's something that a 401K is never going to give you. And instead of hitting 2 million at age 40 or 45 like the day job worker, well, you can hit a four or $5 million net worth mark at that age, setting you up for an early retirement, or at least that option to do so your life is going to feel different when working is An option, not an obligation, and all that sure can happen even sooner. If you think you are behind, from what I was just talking about, there, you find yourself behind those net worth figures. Well, the vehicle of real estate pays five ways. Is what's going to allow you to catch up, and you might be simultaneously measuring your wealth in cash flow as much or more than in net worth terms. Anyway, chances are you do, though, have more wealth today than you have ever had in your entire life, and that's because here in late 2024 we're at a time when just about every asset imaginable is at or near all time highs, real estate, stocks, gold, Bitcoin, and perhaps the number one traded commodity in the world, oil, is one of the few substantial outliers where that is not true. Well, now that we've checked in on how your wealth building is progressing. How about the financial health of your tenant? That's important because you want them to have the ability to pay your mortgages and your operating expenses for you. Well, there seems to be a weird narrative that tenants, you know, like they're always these jilted wannabe homeowners, or like they're auditioning for a season of Survivor, barely living above the poverty line, destitute and eating macaroni and cheese three times a day. Now, there are some of those cases, for sure, but 75% of new rent. Have incomes above $75,000 well, then maybe they eat at the Cheesecake Factory monthly. Even the wealthiest Americans are turning into forever renters. We have seen the rise of the millionaire renter. More than 11% of renters have an annual income over $750,000 that is pretty Wall Street Journal. Gosh, I guess that caviar and truffles are in the home. And what are they doing for cheese? Forget Kraft Singles. My guess for them is that only artisanal cheeses are eaten off of little wooden boards. The census itself recently published research declaring this headline, incomes are keeping up with rent increases. Now you might find it really surprising that tenant rent to income ratios haven't materially changed over the last dozen years. Last year, US renters shelled out a 31% share of their income on rent, and that is actually much like they have for a long time. In fact, between 30 and 32% every year since 2011 that's what the figure's been and to be clear, what we're talking about here again is the rent to income ratio. It's simple. It's just the proportion of your tenants income that goes toward rent. 31% or you might think, Well, wait, how can this be? Because there sure are a lot of headlines around rent burdened households. And for a while there previously, we had wage growth lagging rent growth, although wage growth is ahead of CPI now, and it has been for quite a few months. All right. Well, here's what's happening. Really, it's three things, renter incomes are growing faster than homeowner incomes. Secondly, the struggle is real for low income renters. And thirdly, new construction units. In recent years, they tend to be created for middle and upper income households. All right, so let's break this down. The first phenomenon occurring, renter incomes are growing faster than homeowner incomes. Yes, younger Americans, they're more often renters, and they have more income growth than older generations do. Secondly, like I was saying, the struggle really is a thing for low income renters, they tend to rent apartments more often than single family homes, and census stats show the rent burden household growth in those is occurring with those that make under 75k a year. That's where their distress is, and of course, it's especially bad among those making under 50k a year, and many of them don't receive rental assistance, and inflation has affected that group worse. And then the third reason for these stable rent to income ratios are that new construction units in recent years, they tended to be created for middle and upper income households, so we haven't built nearly enough affordable housing driving demand and rent prices, and again, that crushes those lower income households. And hey, I do want to credit terrific rental housing economist Jay Parsons for bringing some of this to light. The bottom line here and what you've learned about the financial health of renters today, actually, you didn't learn anything. All I did was talk about cheese, really, though, the lesson is that Rental Affordability has become more bifurcated. It's worsened for the lowest income households, but overall, rent to income ratios are still steady near 31% I mean, really, who knew that stability could be so predictable? Now there's another sort of misconception, or I guess anomaly really, in today's real estate market, and that is the fact that new build homes don't cost much more than older resale homes. In fact, today, the median new bill home sells for 421k That's not much more than that of an existing home at 417k that's only about a 1% difference. It's really an unusually small disparity, just a 1% premium for a new home today over a resale home. All right. Well, what is going on here? One reason for this is the very well documented interest rate lock in effect existing homeowners aren't giving up their property. Another is that the new build properties are smaller than they were in years past. Helping keep their prices in check. And a third reason for why new build homes cost almost the same as existing homes today, weirdly, is that home builders they are giving buyers incentives to purchase new build homes today because buyers often need down payment and closing cost help in order to get in. And we're going to talk about one especially good new build incentive program for these brand new properties later in the show today, and what you can do with creative financing there. The real lesson here is, if you can, you want to give more consideration to owning more new build income property today than you might have in years past, because they're down to about the same price as resale properties, only costing 1% more, on average, and this is all based on data from the census, HUD and the NAR. So again, just about 421k for new builds and 417k for resale single family homes today, they are the median prices

you can follow get rich education at all the usual places on social, Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok X and YouTube. To highlight one of those, you will find particular value in the get rich education YouTube channel that is me over there, video of me speaking directly to you and showing you things there visually on YouTube that I cannot do here on an audio podcast. Also, if you have a particular thought, comment, question or concern, understand, we can't personally respond to them all, but you can go ahead and write in or leave voice communication at getricheducation.com/contact we do read and listen to them all that's getricheducation.com/contact in order to reach us. And thank you so much for all of the sincere congratulations and wishes that you left over there for us on the GRE podcast, hitting 10 years of contribution to real estate investors, serving you every single week without fail and never playing any repeat episodes, always serving you with a fresh episode. Much more. Next, I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education.

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Robert Helms 13:57

Hey everybody, it's Robert Helms of the real estate guys radio program. So glad you found Keith Weinhold in get rich education. Don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 14:19

Well, I'd like to welcome in a GRE investment coach. He's got both the formal credentials, and he's doing the real thing too, holding a master's degree from Duke's business school, and then, before coming to GRE in 2021 he worked at both banks and financial publishing companies, but importantly, for years now, he's been an active real estate investor, just like you and I. Hey, welcome back onto the show. Naresh Vissa.

Naresh Vissa 14:45

Thanks so much for having me back on looking forward to talking real estate. There's a lot going on for sure.

Keith Weinhold 14:51

You know, I always give you an illustrious bio to live up to before you speak, but then you do always live up to it. Well, Naresh. Before we narrow down, let's pull back and take a wide angle view. Give us your take on the direction or trends. What's important in today's market for real estate investors?

Naresh Vissa 15:11

Keith, the market has changed a lot, and it's very much investor friendly right now. The reason is because, and we've talked about this, I think, in my last two or three episodes where we previous saw rising interest rates and stagnant interest rates that were relatively high for let's say a millennial. That's been a hot topic called millennials aren't able to afford home buying what we're seeing now because the Federal Reserve cut interest rates tremendously, significantly and almost unexpected. The First Cut they did was 50 basis points, which I think was a mistake, just like I think it was a mistake for them not to raise rates one more time last year, in 2023 one or two more times to help bring inflation down further, I think they're making a mistake by jumping the gun, and instead of a 25 BPS cut as the first cut, doing a 50 BPS cut. The reason why I bring this up is because mortgage rates are plummeting. They have plummeted, and they continue to plummet. So as a home buyer, where the economy still isn't we're not at peak employment. In fact, the unemployment rate is still in the fours, so the economy isn't the greatest which means home values aren't at peak levels. Per se, some people are making the case that we could see home values could be coming down while interest rates come down. So right now, what that means is, when you have falling interest rates and either stagnant home values or maybe even some declining real estate values in some areas of the country, that markets that we focus on other markets we don't focus on, when you combine all that, this is that inflection point where it's actually a really, really good time to jump in. There is a little bit of political uncertainty in that we don't know who's going to win the election. We don't know who's going to win Congress. What's even more important than who becomes president is Congress. Which party wins the house, which party wins the Senate? Because you've written about it in your newsletter, Keith, the Democrats and the Republicans have very different housing policies, and we could do an entire episode on each party and what their housing policy is. I will keep it simple. Here's the cliff note version. If we have the same party in all the chambers of the government the same political party, then we'll see a tremendous impact in the real estate market. I think if the Democrats sweep then you're going to see real estate home values go back up, inflation go back up. Because Kamala Harris is, she is a main proponent of giving basically a $25,000 off coupon to first time homebuyers. So that's across the board all 50 states. Basically you got $25,000 off. What I've learned with coupons, I'm sure you know this, Keith, most coupons actually are a terrible deal. You get something in the mail that's a coupon. You either spend it or you call the service provider and they jack up the price. So you think you're getting a good deal, but they end up jacking up the price even more than what market value is, and that's what's going to happen to housing where you're going to have so many young like I said, millennials, Gen Zers, who are looking to buy their first home, they think they're getting such a great deal because of this $25,000 off coupon, when, in reality, after about three months of this program, you're going to see we're going to be back to 2021, end of 2021, beginning of 2022, all over again, where homes will enter into bidding wars. Now, if there's a split, President is one party and Congress has split, then there's actually going to be almost no change, which could be a good thing. We're not going to see much change at all. It's just going to be the mostly the status quo. Really the only change is going to be on tariffs, If Trump were to win, or foreign policy, those are going to be the two main issues, regardless of which party wins, if there's a split. So the bottom line is that right now, despite this uncertainty, I've heard from a lot of GRE clients, oh, I don't want to do anything because of this election. I've asked for the logic and like, the election, should it really change? Because right now is still an excellent time, like I said, with stagnant home values with plummeting interest rates, really through the end of the year, and as the Fed keeps cutting rates, which I think they're going to engage in a prolonged rate cut cycle for quite a while, and rates are only going to keep going down. So that's my general view of the current state of mortgage rates, the Federal risk. Reserve the election housing markets?

Keith Weinhold 20:03

Yes, Naresh is talking about a newsletter that I sent to you last month where I basically show that, historically, presidential elections really don't affect the real estate market price appreciation much at all. They might affect stocks in the short term, though, which are more volatile and Naresh, do you want to tell me a bit more about why you seem to be rather bullish this year for real estate investors, of course, things change. Last year you were more bearish. You had more negative sentiment about the investor environment. So are there any other reasons why you see more positivity today, other than lower interest rates?

Naresh Vissa 20:37

Yeah. Well, last year, like I said, where I touched on, we saw peak interest rates. So the Fed stopped raising around the end of last summer. I want to say maybe July of 2023 it was, yes, the interest rates stayed high. There was almost no movement until relatively recently, let's say over the last three months, when it was factored into the market that the Fed was going to begin its rate cutting cycle. So the reason why I don't want to say I was bearish on real estate last year, because we have some providers, for example, partners of ours, who offered really, really good and they still are offering really, really good incentives, which help offset the high interest rates this time around, like I said, with the unemployment situation, we're in the force in more layoffs. Archive, the media isn't talking enough about layoffs, large companies, large tech companies, manufacturing jobs. Layoffs have been rampant for the past two years. This is not a recent phenomena, and it's finally showing up in the unemployment data. And if you look at real unemployment data at a website like shadow stats, it's really more than 4% and the number of people are working multiple jobs. That's not really factored into the unemployed. You know, one person working three jobs, for example, you gotta have a way to factor that in, which government hasn't figured out lately. So the point that I'm making here is that if you have a job right now, if you're making cash flow, if you have a job, then you're going to find this as an opportunity with the lower interest rates, with knowing that home values have somewhat declined recently, this is a good opportunity to jump in and get good cash flowing real estate. Now, I did touch on the previous question about Kamala Harris's real estate plan, $25,000 coupon, which will certainly lead to real estate. You can call it real estate appreciation. You can call it inflation. But one thing that I should talk about the other side, which is if Trump and the Republicans were to sweep, then we're going to see mass deportations of undocumented immigrants, illegal immigrants, and that's going to affect the housing market tremendously. And how is it going to do that? Because it's estimated that at least 8 million people are going to be deported over the four year period. Those 8 million people right now are all renters. Close to 100% of them are renters. I think that would actually be somewhat deflationary, at least in the rental market, maybe not in the housing market per se, because a lot of these people aren't necessarily home buyers, but in the rental market, we could likely see a stagnation of rental growth mixed in that's making the assumption that building picks up, and Trump has already said. Both Trump and Harris have said that they're going to incentivize home builders to build more multifamily, build more apartments, build more. In Trump's case, he did these opportunity zones, which he wants to do more of, build more single family housing. It's definitely a supply side issue more so than a demand issue, but both supply and demand always contribute to the equation as a whole. So what does all this mean? Again? Forget about the election. Forget about November 5, which is election day. Right now is a really good time, because interest rates are plummeting. Home values have remained stagnant. In some cases, home values have come down. And the best part, we work with providers who are still offering really amazing incentives. And on october 24 at 8pm we are hosting a webinar to share what I think is our best incentive program yet. That's Thursday, October 24 where you can get class, a new build of properties with interest rates in the 4's that's with that you're not even buying down the interest rate, the interest with special deals, special incentives, special financing, interest rates in the fours, up to $30,000 in immediate equity because of these incentives. And the best part, we even have an option that's zero money down, zero money down there are incentives that are giving back cash at closing. So it's, you buy a property, you as a buyer, get cash back at closing. There are just too many incentives to name here. I've named, I think, five different ones. And this is not a case of you pick one out of the five. In some cases, you might qualify for all five. So october 24 it's before the election. It's live. I'm going to be on live with a special guest who is a very well known, seasoned real estate investor and licensed real estate broker, one of the most well known real estate personalities in the country. So I highly recommend our file go to GREwebinars.com GREwebinars.com to register for that free special event.

Keith Weinhold 25:46

Now you, as a real estate investor, are probably encouraged by this environment of lower and lower interest rates as well you should be, but sometimes it can help to ask yourself the question, okay, how do lower interest rates affect who I'm purchasing a property from. In this case, with the event narration I are talking about, it's new build properties and home builders. They see more competition now coming from the resale market due to the fact that interest rates have fallen so interest rates are thawing out the locked up resale market thawing out this lock in effect, and that's because existing home sellers, well, they're a little bit more willing to sell because the replacement home no longer has an interest rate that's as high over there in the resale market, and lower rates also, of course, mean that more buyers qualify to buy resale homes. So see new home builders, they now have more competition from the resale market, so consequently they're more willing to give you a strong incentive to buy from them. So take advantage of what Naresh and I are talking about coming up in just three days here on Thursday.

Naresh Vissa 26:53

Yes, and I want to reiterate, GREwebinars.com GREwebinars.com this is a online special event. We've done several of these in the past. I've done, I think this is maybe my fifth online special event. Again, I've never seen incentives like what our provider is going to be sharing on this webinar. And you can only get these incentives by attending the webinar, or registering for the webinar, watching the replay after we're talking the rates in the 4's, they will buy down the rate for you. So it's a great deal to have somebody else buy down your rate. You'll get money back at closing if you opt for that. So that's basically a rebate that you'll be getting as the home buyer. Just really, really good overall incentives being offered. And like I said, we set this up because this is a perfect time. We are in a situation, the first time since 2020 since the pandemic, where we're seeing plummeting interest rates, stagnation of home values, kind of uncertainty, because we're in this time of purgatory, just like we were in 2020 before the election. Just think about how many investors, most real estate investors, say right now, they say, Oh, I wish I bought everything in 2020, right? Well, we're in a similar situation now, where, again, home values, interest rates, and this state of purgatory of what's going to happen. We're in a very similar situation. And just think about that emotion, because I hear it almost every day, or when I tell people, Hey, I own real estate myself, and I bought most of my properties before 2021 the last property I bought was in 2020 and they say, Oh, wow. Like, you're a genius. You're so smart. Like, how did you know to buy man and again, similar environment, even 2009 2010 2011 even 2012 similar environment where interest rates were very low. 2009 was when they were plummeting. And you think back of I was too young back then, but I know, Keith, you were an investor back then, but you bought in 2009 you did even better than buying in 2020

Keith Weinhold 29:00

That's right. And in fact, in all the years that I've been buying real estate, I have never bought a property with incentives as good as what you and your co host are going to be talking about at GRE's live event coming up on Thursday night, just starting with a full 10% of the purchase price in credit back to the buyer, and there's more to it. You'll learn all about it again on GRE 's live event for new build, turnkey income properties with zero money down potentially. It is co hosted by Naresh in the guest that I had here last week, Zach. Again, it is on Thursday, October 24 at 8pm Eastern. You can register now at GREwebinars.com and you will be hearing more from Naresh then. Naresh has been great having you back on the show.

Naresh Vissa 29:49

Thank you, Keith and I'll see everyone on october 24 GRE webinars.com to register. Thanks.

Keith Weinhold 30:01

yes, you'll hear more from Naresh and co host Zach on Thursday's live event each year, homebuyers often take a step back in the fall, this time of year. Understand though, that year over year, they are up about 4% per the NAR as of this time. And when it comes to the political effect on housing. You already know what I think. I don't put much emphasis there. Today, I am better off than I was four years ago, and it has nothing to do with who the President was or was in Congress, and in the preceding four years, I became better off during that time period too, because what happens in my house and what happens in your house is more important than what happens in the White House. As Naresh and I are talking about new build property here, and you're hearing about extremely attractive incentives. Hey, let's not let the point be lost. New build properties can be profitable for you over time due to lower maintenance costs. New builds have lower insurance premiums, and that's on top of how we discussed you could get low interest rates in in southeastern high growth path of progress markets in our upcoming live online event, and at the least, you will learn about creative deal structuring, and you know, when it comes to zero money down like that very concept, there was a time in my life where I thought, yeah, that sounds about as real as athletic brand beer, or about as real as lab grown meat, but all three actually exist. Here's what's exciting, we have partnered with major builders that are sitting on excess new build inventory right now, like Lennar and DR Horton, to help bring you institutional level pricing. Your name does not have to be BlackRock. And this is something we've never done before here at GRE these new build properties in those fast growing areas of the southeast, they're often single family rentals. And yes, you know what I like to say about single family rentals. Stainless steel appliances are great, as long as you or your tenant never touch them. But to be clear, there are two levels of incentives we've been promised. So we've got to have this event now before they vanish. You can potentially use both, first, up to a 10% credit at closing, so yes, on a 250k market value property, as much as a 25k credit and then secondly, a 5% down payment we've paired with credit unions in local markets that make Portfolio loans to investors, and that is up to five properties max. And to get that 5% down, you must qualify, just like you would for most any mortgage loan. And by the way, do you know what a portfolio loan means? That means when the bank or credit union makes the loan, it'll go sell that off to a secondary market and have it packaged into a mortgage backed security. What the bank or the credit union does is they keep that in their own portfolio. A portfolio loan does not mean that the lender makes a loan against your existing properties in your portfolio. That's what I used to think when I was a new investor, but that is a misnomer. That's not what a portfolio loan is. Well, with these incentives, if you get a 10% credit and only spend a 5% down payment plus four to 5% on closing costs, hey, there you are. You are in with zero down payment. It's a chance for you to get your fit together. Yes, what fits you is zero down right for you. I mean, you know that I am a staunch leverage proponent, but if that's not right for you, you can use your 10% cash back discount elsewhere, like buying down your mortgage rate to about 4% maybe even three point something percent. And see right here, this is exactly where the deal structuring gets fun incentives like this don't last. When the inventory is gone, it's gone show up live, and that way you can also have any of your questions answered if you have them, yes, our online event is an even bigger deal in fantasy football. Well, I trust that you learned something useful today on this week's episode of the get rich education podcast, to review, it's how tenant rent to income ratios are actually stable near 31% on why new build properties only cost about 1% more than existing properties today. And all about creative deal structuring, where you can own brand new new build income properties potentially with as little as 5% down and perhaps zero down payment. It's a really good opportunity. We sure have mentioned it before, but one last time, all the action takes place Thursday, October 24 at 8pm eastern at GREwebinars.com. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith weinhold, don't quit with your Daydream

Speaker 2 35:27

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 35:55

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building Getricheducation.com.
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523: How to Vet a Property Manager
14 okt· Get Rich Education
Join our upcoming GRE live event right here! - ‘New Turnkey Properties with ZERO Money Down’ on Thursday 10/24.

On this week's episode, Keith shares how to vet and onboard a property manager, emphasizing the importance of their role in tenant relations and net operating income. He is also joined by our guest, seasoned investor and turnkey expert, to highlight the benefits of new construction properties with zero money down, leveraging builder incentives and portfolio loans.

Learn the key qualifications to look for in a property manager, typical management fee structures and questions to ask.

Hear about the benefits of new construction homes, including consistent income, quality tenants, and growth potential.

We discuss the potential for 10% builder credits and 5% down portfolio loans.

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, how do you vet a property manager and maintain an onboarding relationship with them over time? I just hired one, and I'll tell you how I did it. Then there's a trend to exploit in today's real estate market, with the opportunity to place zero money down on brand new build property today on Get Rich Education.

00:27

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show, guess who? Top Selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 01:12

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:29

Welcome to GRE Yeah. This is get rich education, the voice of real estate investing for more than 10 years now. This is episode 523, and I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, let's talk about how to vet a property manager. After all, they are what make your real estate investment mostly passive. I recently hired a new property manager. Of course, I have one in each geographic area where I own property. Now, instead, you can self manage from a distance, but sooner or later, you probably won't feel that's the highest and best use of your time. As friend of GRE and host of the real estate guys radio show, Robert Helms says, Life is too short for property management. And you know, when it comes to managing your property, still today, you can't just have an AI do that, and to be your property manager is the most important piece of your team, because they're the ones that handle all the tenant relations, collect your rent, and They control your occupancy rate too. I think you can make the case that a property manager is even more important in larger apartment buildings than they are in, say, single family rentals up to fourplexes, and that's for a few reasons. Number one, because managers drive your net operating income your noi in apartments. Okay, so that doesn't just drive your income. That drives the very valuation of the property, since apartments are the NOI divided by the cap rate. And secondly, one bad or noisy tenant can make other apartment tenants miserable. Yet if there's one noisy single family home tenant, well others might not even know about it or hear them. So a manager is more important in large apartments than smaller units. But let's not let the point be missed. They are crucial, just vital either way. And when it comes to qualifying a property manager, you know, before you reach out to that manager, do some research on your own. First, like first, I like to see if I have any friends that use that management company, and I like to get feedback from them. Also like to read reviews and see what current investors that use that property manager say about them in forums. And you know from real world experience, if you've been an investor for any period of time, it's a little sad to say, but getting reviews that are merely adequate or average, that might be good enough. There are many places in life where I accept mediocrity, although property management is probably one of them, because it's just a tough job where that manager has to adjudicate, use their judgment and walk a line between two antagonistic parties, and those parties are you and Your tenants. So adequate is good enough. Management is just one of those industries. It's kind of like airlines always seem to get bad reviews too. If there's a rating system out there for umpires and referees, it would probably be the same users only comment when there's a problem. Well. So when vetting a property manager next, I like to know how long they've been in business. I also like to know how many properties that manager currently manages, how many units they have in their management portfolio. And with this latest manager that I just recently hired, it happened to be 325 properties. That's a good number. And this manager also happens to be one in a network of a nationwide management franchise. So there are some systems and some economies of scale that I'm getting, and there are a lot of mom and pop managers too, and they can often do a good job as well of scaling and automation. A lot of managers, for example, they leverage a software like app folio, where you as an investor, you can log in and see your investor activity and your owner draws there. So this particular new manager that I hire, they have those 325, properties that they manage. But speaking to geography, I learned that their brick and mortar presence, their main office, it's a full 45 minutes away from where I have my properties all clustered. That's not ideal to have my properties far flung from their hub, because you want your properties to get adequate attention. And you can imagine, if your properties are too far for where most of their operations are. Well, then your properties might not get enough attention, but I learned that they already have 20 properties in the immediate area of mine, and that their maintenance man also happens to live near my property, so in this case, 45 minutes from the satellite office. Although it's not ideal, it did work for me. This new manager that I hired has the tenants rent be due on the first of the month, but they have a grace period to pay until the fifth and then the owner draws. They're made around the 10th of the month and the owner draws. That means when the manager makes their payment, to me, the investor, which is after they collected all the rents, minus their management fees and maintenance expenses. All right. Well, all that stuff is pretty typical, and let me tell you now about their management fee structure. And again, this is pretty typical. And by the way, I don't try to negotiate fees with managers in most cases, maybe, unless I have an awful lot of properties with them, they have a monthly management fee of 8% now 10% that's a pretty common fee out there as well, meaning that if rent is $2,000 they take $160 each month in a management fee. That's that 8% and then additionally their leasing fee is one half month, meaning that when they screen and place a new tenant for me, they get $1,000 at that time again, on this example of a $2,000 rent, and I pay a $150 re leasing fee, meaning If they release the unit to that same tenant after, say, their first year or two lease expires, ask your manager if they do markups on maintenance bills. For example, if they subcontract a plumber, and those plumber charges are $500 over to the manager. Does a manager tack on, say, 10% to that charge and then charge you $550 or not? Preferably, the answer is no markups like that can be another profit center for property management companies. However, what this manager does is instead, they have a trip charge of $55 for when their maintenance guy visits the property, and I was okay with that. That's reasonable. Also ask your property manager, if they do regular inspections of your properties, that means that they physically go inside the unit from time to time to confirm that everything is on right, that your tenant is trading a property with respect and that there aren't any deferred maintenance items cropping up, like delaminated flooring or some kind of water leak that needs attention. And this particular manager that I just decided to hire, they charge $75 a year for two of these annual inspections, so they physically go inside the unit every six months for a comprehensive check, which is a really good idea. And I love that they do that. Another tactic that I take when vetting a property manager is to ask them, you know, just a detailed question or two, really feel out their operations. It can be a good idea for you to do something like this. For example, I told this new manager that you know, in the past with other management companies or ones I still use, you know, I've seen managers they try to charge me for clearing a clogged sink drain. Well, I've let managers know I shouldn't. Not be seeing charges like that at all. In almost every instance, clearing clogs that should be charged to the tenant, not me. I mean, obstructions don't float up from water and septic systems. So in most cases, that is what's happening. So you know, the tenant is at fault for getting something clogged in there in almost every case. Now, one exception might be that, I don't know, tree roots encroach on plumbing or something like that. Okay? But the point is, when you ask about something like that, you're showing your property manager that you're savvy and you can't be taken advantage of. Okay? They have got to be the ones that pushes back on the tenant, sometimes not pushing on you every time, just because they feel like you're the one that can afford the expense more than the tenant. So that sets some expectations for the ongoing relationship. Also talk to your property manager about your communication preferences over time. Now, for me personally, I don't want an intrusive text message unless it's something that's pretty urgent. I prefer email communication, and the manager does not need to email me every time they need approval of expenses less than, say, $300 now, when you get more faith in your manager later, you might want to bump that number up to $500 or whatever your number is. Now, at times I do like to call my property manager on the phone. Sometimes you'll just get more information from them. This way, a better feel when I called a different property manager that I currently have, you know, one thing that they mentioned to be on the phone, they were like, oh, Keith, I've been meaning to call you. You've had a vacant unit for weeks, and we should probably lower the asking rent 50 to $100 All right. Well, I agree that we should do that, but I feel like the vacancy would have lingered longer at the higher asking rent had I not called. So really, this is the sort of light touch that you should give your properties over time, and it's the reason that why, even with professional property management, it's not completely passive. Instead, it's a little contact. And I also like to tell my property manager that I have mortgages on my properties. I have every property mortgaged, and always have. You can choose to have your manager pay your mortgage for you, or you can pay it yourself, and that's a bit about vetting and managing your property manager. And I hope some of those ideas go a long way toward helping you, really, they're the frameworks about what's important and establishing expectations with them. Up front this week a great guest and I will discuss trends in today's real estate investment market, and then we'll tell you about an event that you can join and how to specifically exploit an especially promising real estate opportunity that I have never seen before. That's next. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS, 420056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com that's Ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund to help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text FAMILY to 66866.

Rick Sharga 14:46

this is Rick Sharga, a housing market intelligence analyst. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 15:11

This week, we've got the privilege of hearing from a seasoned real estate investor. He himself is in single family, multifamily and commercial. He's also a licensed optometrist, and he practices on a volunteer basis, giving away his time and expertise there. In fact, he started investing in real estate while working as an optometrist and captain for the US Air Force, and that on the side, real estate investing allowed him to retire early from medicine, and today, he's an industry expert in real estate market analytics and how to use real estate as a means to create the lifestyle that you, the listener, desire for your family. Hey, welcome to GRE Zach Lemaster.

Zack Lemaster 15:54

Thanks so much for having me on again. It's good to be back, and always a pleasure to you know, talk real estate, I learn a lot from you in the content you put out. So I'm a big fan, and I appreciate you having me on.

Keith Weinhold 16:06

Well, thanks for saying that will. I'm sure we're going to learn from you today too. You've got such a great take and feel for the pulse of the residential real estate market. Tell us about your take, whether that's price, direction, rents, occupancy rates, supply, interest rates, demographics, whatever you think is important, tell us about what a real estate investor really needs to know in this era, Zach.

Zack Lemaster 16:30

man, and this could probably be a whole day conversation, Keith, I think you've done an excellent job covering this every time you put out information, so we won't belabor the point. But I guess my general take is that, you know, we're moving into a section in the the market cycle, I believe, where we'll probably start to see a little bit more of a normalization of a real estate market. I mean, it's just been so strange, right, to pull data points over the past two years, and actually, really four or five years of like, there's really some unique things happening, and there's a lot of people that have projections around how housing prices are changing and things like that. The only really thing, I think the big takeaway from the past two years is that home sales have plundered it. People talk about real estate crashes, real estate prices really didn't change that so much. And actually in a lot of the markets, like where we focused on they went up because, you know, supply and demand. These are areas where there's a huge discrepancy and there's an undersupply of housing, and those are kind of the areas you want to be in the path of progress. But one thing that we did see over the past few years is that there's a plummet in home sales, and that's both with less buyers because of the interest rates and less sellers holding on to their low interest rates. People are less likely to move in those scenarios. So I think we're going to see more of that as we start to see interest rates coming down over time, and we'll probably see more inventory hit the market, but also a new influx of buyers. So I don't know if there's going to be much of a change in terms of pricing, but generally speaking, I think there's from the investor side. A lot of what we talk about is retail, but with the investor mindset, which is your audience, I think what we will likely see is that there's probably a lot of people that were sitting on the sidelines that will jump into the market. There's going to be more buyer competition, of course, that drives prices. And one thing we know for a fact that we'll dive in deeper today about Keith, is that there are builders, because a lot of what we do is in the new construction, build to rent industry. And we could talk about why that is, but that's just a solid asset class to maintain consistent income, quality, tenants, growth and potential in both home appreciation and rents. But I think what we're likely to see is that over the past year, there's been a lot of builders giving out these crazy incentives because they've had excess inventory and they've had a slowdown on the retail sales, and it's been a really unique opportunity for investors to come in acquire good assets at with these crazy incentives of below market pricing, which we'll talk about, that is likely going to disappear over time, as they move more into the retail sales, and those channels start to open up more because there's more buyers and so in the niche that we work in, that's kind of the takeaway that I think is developing, really over the next, you know, A few months here.

Keith Weinhold 19:00

yes, this reduction in sales volume that we've had like you touched on which lower interest rates could help thaw. Almost everyone agrees that interest rates are going to fall more slowly than they spiked in rows in 2022 and you know what's funny, Zach, I can be in the front of a room talking about the condition of the economy in the real estate market, and I can say to the audience act, I can say, if you think there's uncertainty right now, a substantial amount of uncertainty, raise your hand. Adversely. Everyone raises their hand. But you know what? They did the same thing two years ago, and they did the same thing five years ago. So my point is, yeah, investors invest through the uncertainty. Because uncertainty always exists. It just shifts around as to where the uncertainty is. The listener might be trying to validate sort of one thing in their mind and get it to balance out right now. Zach, when we talk about this lowering of sales volume, and you mentioned builders that are sitting on some inventory yet we have a lack. Of supply. Can you balance that out for us and tell us how that is that some builders have inventory that they're sitting on that's supply, and yet we have an overall lack of supply.

Zack Lemaster 20:10

yeah, and I think the other key piece into that is lack of affordability, right? And so all those things kind of play together, just to tie up your last point. There's always uncertainty in real estate, but there's also the fundamentals of real estate. Keith, you know, this is a long time investor, investing all across the country, as long as you stay focused on the fundamentals, which, at the end of the day, is really investing in good locations with good teams, where you have positive cash flow, right? And you likely have a positive outlook from an economic standpoint for that market, to keep the house rent in to keep rents going up. Like that's really all there is to this to be successful long term that can exist in any market cycle. So I just encourage people to stay focused on that. But ultimately, your question about inventory supply, we talked about big things of like lack of inventory. I mean, we have a deficit of I think the last stat I saw was seven and a half million houses, you know, deficit or something like that, but that's really on the global economic picture for the US, right when we break it down to the kind of the micro economic scale with each individual regional market, because we work with regional builders as well as national builders, and we're also builder. We also put up our own houses as well to a somewhat small scale, but a lot of those builders started the houses that are now completed, you know, at this point, sometimes six months ago, more likely 12 to 18 months ago. And they had anticipation as the Fed was talking about interest rates lowering, you know, they maybe were planning an X amount of sales for those exact houses. However, from the retail standpoint, there really hasn't been that movement. So we still have a lack of homes that we need, but we also have a lack of people that can buy those houses, because there's a lack of affordability, right? And all these builders also have X amount of houses that they sell to institutional buyers, the blackrocks and some of these buyers that will come in in and we'll talk about why that's relevant to us and how we've pioneered our way into operating like one of those for the individual investor and bringing those same buying incentives to the everyday investor. But there's also been a large decrease on investor activity from an institutional level buying. So just because we have a reduction in inventory and we have a low supply does not necessarily mean that we're just gonna, you know, builders can just sell all their homes because of that. There's a lot that plays into that, and you need to look at each geographic market. But ultimately, if you're looking at the fundamentals of investing in real estate, where you can still be, and we try to be below the meeting house price point, below that $400,000 price point, again, that's where we have the largest demographic big affordability issues right now. I think that's a safe place to be, right? Because you don't see the fluctuations that you do on the more expensive homes, the more expensive markets. I think you have the large, large demographics for both renters and retail buyers, and you also have more runway, right? More runway for prices to go up. So that's kind of our the niche area that we're when I'm talking about excess supply. That's the area that we're really focusing on.

Keith Weinhold 23:03

Oh, that was beautifully explained in how to tie that supply story together there. Zach, of course, there are so many ways to divide up the real estate market, one of those being that price tier. And typically for us as cash flow real estate investors, we look at a single family home. Yeah, it's going to be under 400k in order to generate income, I have an announcement to make here to you the listener on Thursday, October 24 one of our GRE investment coaches, along with Zach here, are co hosting GRE 's live event for new build turnkey income properties with zero money down. Yes, I'm stealing some of your thunder there. Zach, zero money down. Registration is now open at GREwebinars.com and the momentum has been building for this event that you can attend from the comfort of your own home. Tell us about what you'll be covering at our live event. Zach.

Zack Lemaster 23:58

yeah, and I'm very excited to do that. Keith, I appreciate you having me. Han, again, I think all the investors, if you're interested in new construction or just creative finance and some ways to make some unique deals happen, like you have to attend this webinar just to at least learn. First, we'll talk about different markets right now where we see the best opportunity. So if nothing else, you learn about some of the best markets to invest in. But really what we're going to unveil is how someone, regardless of where you live, geographically or your investing experience, how you can make a creative deal happen on a turnkey deal that you can get below market value and possibly buy with zero money down, or at least have a good portion of your down payment cover to really skyrocket your ROI. So this is a scenario, Keith, we really get to have your cake and eat it too, because you get a brand new constructed house. It's turnkey, where everything is done for you in a great market that has appreciation book on rents and prices. But you can also buy it with low to no money down and really be a creative investor. And I know that we're going to talk about all the details with that.

Keith Weinhold 24:58

Yes, let's talk more about. Out the potential for zero money down here. I mean, I think that's the most compelling value proposition with what we're doing next Thursday.

Zack Lemaster 25:08

sure. So we'll just go through a numeric example so people can kind of wrap their head around like what this entails. We already set the stage for you know why builders may have excess inventory. And what we do with our business is we partner with both regional and national builders, some of the largest national builders as well as as I mentioned, we build our own homes as well, but we partner with some of these national builders that have excess inventory in markets that we know are productive investment opportunities. A lot of these happen to be in the southeast, because that's where the population is growing, and we're seeing that's where favorable landlord legislation is and federal taxes and growth potential, all the things right, positive cash flow, but we focus on those areas. And we can go to these national builders, because as a group, you know, we buy hundreds of houses every single year, and we can basically approach them like an institutional buyer and say, we want the same access to those wholesale deals that you would sell to BlackRock, but we want that for ourselves, and we can pass that on to the individual investor. That's kind of the value add. But specifically, what we're talking about is a scenario where some of these builders will offer up to a 10% credit at closing. That is huge. And just to I mean, for someone that is just new, the real estate game is kind of learning about this is I've been investing personally for 15 years now, I've never seen things like this in any market cycle that's through multiple different market cycles, but I've never seen anything this attractive. So this is not normal. I want to say that's to start. But essentially, you can get up to 10% of a credit on a house that you can use however you want to. And so there's a few different ways that you can use this key. So if you're buying a $300,000 turnkey new construction home, you could, in theory, get $30,000 off and buy that at 270 of $30,000 of immediate equity. That might be a good strategy if you're looking to lower the mortgage payment on that or if you're looking to, say, refinance that property or sell it quicker, you have that immediate equity in that house, right? The other thing you could do with that 10% is you could use it to buy your interest rate down we have and that will get you below 4% you could literally buy your rates down into 3% with that much, if you want to put that much money into it, it'll cover your closing costs and buy the rate down significantly. So no matter what the Fed lowers, the rate to you are back actually down to one, 821, rates by buying your way there with that huge credit that obviously causes, you know, cash flow to skyrocket near ROI, to go way up. The third option that you can do is you can actually take that money, just get it back as a credit at closing. So if you're buying a house, say a $300,000 house, you're putting 20% down, which would be $60,000 on that house, you get $30,000 immediately back. That means you're into the house for 10% or half your down payment. That also skyrockets your ROI. So the point is, is there's a lot of creative things that you can do with these type of exciting credits, and they vary between five to 10% based on inventory, but they go up to 10% on some of these new construction inventory options. One last thing here, Keith, and this is hopefully I haven't lost anyone, but this is where things get really creative. As a company, we also work with different lenders throughout the country to bring the best financing options to investors. And we have a group of credit unions. They're all local to that geographic area that have Portfolio loans. Meaning these are not Fannie, Mae, Freddie Mac loans. These are loans they hold in house. These are true investor loans. You still have to qualify for them, but if you qualify, you can put as little as 5% down, meaning the they will finance up to 95% of your property. We have tons of investors doing this consistently, and you can do this on up to five properties, five investment properties, if you qualify. And so that means, in theory, you could buy a brand new construction house with a 5% down loan. You get a 10% credit back at closing that covers your down payment, your closing costs, and likely puts money back in your pocket. So that's not only buying a new construction, turnkey house with no money down it's actually getting paid to do so now there's a lot of economics to understand and cash flow, you know, with a high leverage and things like that, but that's a concept, and it's very exciting.

Keith Weinhold 29:09

Yes, that last option that you mentioned seems to be the most compelling. I know. You've got investors that are learning about this and have already taken advantage of that, and again, that last option is getting the 10% credit that you're getting from the builder, coupling that with a 5% down portfolio loan from a local lender, which effectively would give you 5% cash back at the closing table. However, your closing cost of prepaids might be something like 4% so really, in a best case scenario, not only are you zero money down, you're getting about 1% of the purchase price, or $3,000 in this example back at the closing table. Now, of course that's going to affect your cash flow, but you got to think about what's important to you. So when one thinks about what's important to them, as an investor, with some of those options that you laid out there, Zach, I really highlighted the last one. What are some of the trade offs, the pros and cons of choosing these different incentives that the builders are getting right now?

Zack Lemaster 30:05

I'm so glad you asked this, Keith, because someone could be very excited about the idea of no money down, but that may not actually be the most strategic benefit to them. The nice thing is that there's so much incentive to buy right now with these type of, you know, kickbacks, these these incentives that, like you can structure a deal that's specific to you in your goals. But I would really encourage the audience to understand what is your exit strategy, or what is the next three to five years? Why are you buying this property, and how to strategically apply that? And if you don't know, if you need some guidance through that, let us help you kind of understand the different scenarios, but I want to work backwards first and mention one more thing, the no money down option would be really attractive because cash flow is going to be limited. In that scenario, you still have a loan that's covering 95% of the house, right? You would expect it, and you don't have to only put 5% down, right? You can put six, 7% down. So it's, you know, maybe break even cash flow. It's up to you. But the investors that really like that option, including myself, is the people that want to grow and scale their portfolio and stretch their capital the furthest. They maybe don't care so much about cash flow right now at this moment, they know that cash flow will increase over time. But if you're someone who really takes advantage of the tax benefits of real estate, this is way to, like, honestly, without any money out of your pocket, just taking some action, you can create this huge tax benefit, right? Because if you're buying five properties with virtually no money down, and let's say those are each $200,000 properties, you could essentially buy a million dollars worth of real estate that you own and control 100% of and you get the huge, immense tax benefit. So if you're doing things like Cost Segregation studies, like we do, you can create hundreds of 1000s of dollars of tax deductions without any money out of your pocket, just being strategic this way. But let's talk about some of these other options, because that was a real question. Where would it make sense for people? So again, if you say that 10% on a $300,000 house, that's 30k if you wanted to take that as a price reduction right out of the gates, that would obviously lower your mortgage, that's going to lower the mortgage payment amount to allow you to cash flow more. But I think the real the strategy, or the play there, is that you have built in equity in a house. This means that if your plan is to maybe put a HELOC on the house, do a cash out refinance in a few short years, as that House continues to appreciate again, because it's in a growth market, you're just going to cut that time in half because you have built in equity or if you plan to sell it. I mean, there are some scenarios where you could turn around and almost like, flip this in theory. You could do it. If you really run the economics, they want to be hugely profitable. But theory could be profitable if you sold the house with, you know, even immediately, because these builders are still selling these houses at retail, setting comps at full market value. So if you have 10% and you're paying a realtor 5% commission, they're still closing costs. But you could, you know, net some capital, but better scenarios, probably, if you're holding it for two or three years again, letting it continue to appreciate, your option is to sell it, then you're into capital gains, or again, 1031 exchange it. You know that might be good option to have built in equity. Or if this is going to be a long term hold for you, and you're just like, I love this area where I'm investing, I want to maximize cash flow. I want to have a long term loan that has a really low interest rate, then actually applying the majority of that capital to buy your rate down. That's going to obviously maximize cash flow, and that's also going to lock you in on a 30 year fixed loan at a really low rate, maybe you want to buy the rate down. So that's really the two options. We see most investors either taking the capital back and using the zero money down option, or buying the rate down, because that's going to allow them to really cash flow well, and they're just going to hold that property for a long period of time and let real estate do what it does. Those are kind of the different scenarios. I think that makes sense for different investors and understanding where to apply this incentive. Sure, if you go for a high loan, to value loan at 95% or even 100% you really then pursue the infinite return strategy, have maximum leverage, or complete leverage in the property, have all the inflation profiting benefits magnified because you're borrowing more, but that scenario is going to reduce your cash flow. So it's all about what's important to you as a real estate investor, was that before you go, just tell us a little bit more. I think the listener is going to learn more on next Thursday's webinar, but just give us a bit more on property types, whatever else one might want to know. certainly. So this is mainly in the southeast, okay, so these would be markets like Texas, Alabama, Carolinas, Florida. We have some stuff in Tennessee, but, I mean, this is really the growth markets right where we have landlord friendly legislation, low taxes, we have affordability, but we have huge population trends moving to these areas. Those are the areas we want to be. Those are the areas where builders are building in because supply and demand. Those are areas where we're positioned for strong growth over time. Overall, our average rental increase is 6% year per year, and that's going back on data over the past decade. He's really good then, yeah, usually double national average there. So those are because we're specifically positioning ourselves in areas where. Where there's increase in rental demand and in population and economic growth, average home prices. I mean, we have new construction homes as low as 200,000 by the way. Side caveat, we also have some rehab homes that are in that 131 50 range that you can still use the low money down. Those don't have as high up incentives as the new construction do. But average price for new construction, two to 300,000 give or take. I mean, just buying them, if we're buying them with a conventional loan, with 20% down, you know, you're still looking at eight to 12% cash on cash returns. Let's just talk about the cash flow. So they're really good properties that cash flow well, which is hard to find today, and they're in good locations. I think that's really the main point I want to drive home as we finish up here is, these are single family residencies in good locations. You guys, I've invested, as you mentioned, in the nice century gave me, I mean, real estate allowed my wife and I to retire from our career paths as optometrist through investing. That did not happen overnight, but it did happen over a period of time, and it did take a lifetime, either, though, that's the thing I want to mention, over a short few years of intentional, dedicated investing, we learned that really focusing on growth markets and new construction houses allow for the best quality tenants, the most predictable returns and the best growth and rents and appreciation of the houses over time. To build equity, those are the kind of assets that we want to hold long term and will help you build wealth in a short period of time. So that's kind of been the direction of our business model. Is focusing on quality inventory in good locations with good teams that still have cash, good cash flow. But you mix in some of these incentives, Keith, and it's just like, it's a no brainer. And I do think this is the biggest thing, is sense of urgency here. This is unlimited inventory. This is not something that's normal, as I mentioned, and this buying opportunity that we're so excited about is not going to last forever, as we started this conversation, talking about the market shifting as interest rates continue to come down over time, that will continue to bring more buyers into the market and just less motivation from builders to offer these incentives. So guys, now is the time to take action and make really good investments now that will set you up for success for many years.

Keith Weinhold 37:03

The time is now. This is one of the best deals I've really learned about here in the recent past at all this could be of any benefit to it all. You really want to jump in on this, because, like Zach said, this won't last forever. Well, Zach, before I ask you for your closing thoughts again, for you to listen or be sure to sign up for GRE 's live event. This is for new build, turnkey income properties, potentially with zero money down. It is Thursday, October 24 at 8pm Eastern. Register at GREwebinars.com any last thoughts? Zach

Zack Lemaster 37:03

Keith, I just appreciate all the information you're putting out there, we are all thrilled about real estate as an asset class. It's been an interesting past few years. But again, just going back to the fundamentals, guys invest in good properties and good locations with good teams. And I promise you, if you do that consistently over time, you will reach financial independence or whatever financial goals you are striving to achieve. There's more millionaires or main real estate than the other asset class, and it's the most predictable Path to Wealth. There's no secret about that, but it does take consistency in any market cycle. So Keith, thanks so much again for having me on.

Keith Weinhold 38:12

Oh, those are great parting words, and you the listener, are going to get to talk more with Zach and one of our investment coaches. Next Thursday, it is live at the end, you will have a chance to have your questions answered in real time, in case you want to talk to Zach more. Hey, it's been great having you here. There's something in the market cycle there that we can really take advantage of. Builders have some excess inventory and see the money that they have tied up in them is something that they're paying a fairly high interest rate on to. And we have now partnered with some of the biggest builders, Lennar DR Horton and others, to get you this institutional grade buying power buying at scale for lower prices and better incentives, like Zach and I said, new builds in the southeastern US for purchase prices of 200 to 300k offering you up to a 10% credit at closing. So in a 300k rental single family home, you can then use as much as 30k and choose what you want to do with that. You could buy your interest rate down to 3% that's probably better if you're going to hold it long term or use on your closing costs and have some to use toward your interest rate. Or alternatively, you could just take it as a price reduction. A 300k property is now 270k maybe you can even enjoy the discount and sell it in the next, say, two to three years for a profit. You're likely not going to be immensely profitable that way, but you don't know what the market will do over time. All right, so it'll typically be a five to 10% credit, and that depends on the property that you seek here. All right, so that is the builder credit bucket there. And then, in addition to that, if you qualify, you have some good, say, credit and assets where you can get a financing option through local credit unions, and that is local to the area that your property is in that will extend you a portfolio loan. If you qualify, you'll learn about how to do this. And this means you could put as little as 5% down, and you can do that on up to five investment properties. Okay, so with those buckets, or those two incentives combined, you could then get a 5% down loan with a 10% builder credit so that 5% bank could cover your closing costs and even just put a little money in your pocket. You should sort of think of all of that as a best case scenario. You might be pretty excited about no money down, and you probably should, but, you know, attend the event and weigh the pros and cons and see if that is the right avenue for you. A lot of it comes down to what do you want to optimize your cash flow or your leveraged equity? This is an action taking time for you to get a good chance at being set up for financial success for years. I mean, it is opportunities just like this. I mean, you learn about these concepts on the benefits of real estate investing here on the show. And now here's something really tangible where you can get ahead. I mean, personally, for me as an investor, I've never had an opportunity like what we're talking about here. Before. If you so desire, you can own new build property and learn how to get it tied up at the event. Make sure to sign up and put it on your calendar. That is next Thursday, the 24th from the comfort of your own home, GRE 's live online event for new build properties in growth markets, potentially with zero money down. It is free to register, and as of now, there are spots available at GREwebinars.com Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your Daydream.

42:10

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 42:38

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, get richeducation.com.
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522: A Wealth Mindset in Real Estate Investing with Garrett Gunderson
7 okt· Get Rich Education
Firebrand speaker and author of “Killing Sacred Cows”, Garrett Gunderson, joins us to discuss wealth mindset and value creation. Also, Keith touches on the impact of falling interest rates on various loans and the economy noting that lower rates can benefit savers and investors.

Historical data shows that home prices have only fallen 6 times in the last 83 years, signaling the rarity of significant price declines.

Learn about the Rockefeller method, which involves using trusts and whole life insurance to preserve and grow wealth.

Garrett advocates for investing in real estate, businesses, and intellectual property rather than mutual funds or ETFs.

DM Garrett on Instagram to receive a free copy of his book on the Rockefeller method.

Resources:

GarrettGunderson.com or

Alon Instagram @garrettbgunderson

Join our upcoming GRE live event right here! - ‘New Turnkey Properties with ZERO Money Down’ on Thursday 10/24.

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, talking about what falling interest rates really mean to you. 10 years of the GRE podcast, politics are overrated. How often do home prices fall? The latest in AI generated podcasting and then wealth mindset and wealth preservation all today on get rich education.

00:27

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 01:12

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:28

Welcome to GRE from Evansville, Indiana to Victorville, California and across 488 nations worldwide for an entire decade of your life now, this is Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, what does it mean that we're in an era of falling interest rates from the recent peaks, rates of all types have fallen. Mortgage rates have fallen. The Fed funds rate has fallen, and that prime rate has fallen too. I mean the prime rate that you pay, that's basically the Fed funds rate plus 3% and why the prime rate matters to you is that can affect credit cards, home equity loans, automobile loans and small business loans, every one of them down, down, down. So to any savvy investor that knows what's going on in the 21st century? This can mean celebration for your wallet, for your finances. And look in old days, lower rates, that would be bad news, not good news. And why is this? Well, in olden days, and some people still have an outdated mindset, lower rates are bad because savings accounts used to make sense back in the day, and lower interest rates means lower rates for savers on their bank, savings accounts. Yeah, those 5% online only savings accounts are going to four and a half with the Fed's half point rate cut last month. Well, 100 years ago, you could be a saver. That made some sense, because their interest rates could reliably beat inflation over time, but not today. Today, since inflation transfers wealth from lenders to borrowers and inflation redistributes wealth from savers to debtors. For those like us that understand this and act accordingly, we are indeed the beneficiaries of lower interest rates. Now, there are other effects out there in the economy. Cheaper loans could lead to more m&a activity, more mergers and acquisitions that can benefit investment banks like your Goldman Sachs that facilitates those transactions. Well, what happens to real estate prices amidst lower interest rates? What happens is that they tend to rise now here on the show, you remember that since 2022 I have discussed what has surprised a lot of people. Amidst rising interest rates, the environment that we used to have, home prices tend to rise. And it has happened again. When mortgage rates tripled, prices kept right on rising. So you might wonder, well, wait a second, which is it or I'm confused, amidst rising interest rates, home prices rise and amidst falling interest rates, home prices rise too. And the answer is yes, look at history over hunches. To our newsletter readers, I recently sent you that great chart, a table, I guess it showed the national home price, rate of appreciation or depreciation for every single year, going back to World War Two and from 1942 until today, those 83 years, how many times do you think that home prices fell over the last 83 years? There were exactly six, six of the last 83 years, only six where home prices fell. Paradoxically, interest rates don't have much to do with home prices, and this is all per Case Shiller statistics. Over the last 83 years, there were only six down years. 72 were up. Five were even. And of those six down years in the last 83 five of the six down years were tied up in a once. I mean, it took a once in several generations confluence, a cataclysm of events to occur during the global financial crisis, 2007 to 2011 all at once. Back then, it was a housing supply, surplus, disgustingly lawless mortgage market, cheap credit and a preponderance of debt in the banking system since World War 2, 83 years ago, there was only one other year when home prices fell, that was 1990 when they fell by 1%. If you're waiting for Home prices to fall substantially, it is super unlikely that that is going to happen. Just look at history, and today's market has more than the housing shortage in loads of protective homeowner equity, which means low delinquency rates, and we have permanently inflated higher prices baked into replacement costs of all kinds, land, architecture, engineering, permitting, regulation, labor, building, equipment, construction materials all over the place, but us, you know, as real estate investors, we might be more interested in rent appreciation than prices just four years ago, you know, just then to pay $2,000 to rent a single family home. I mean, that was quite a nice place in the Midwest and South. And today I have modest single family rentals built 50 years ago that are about 1200 square feet, and now they rent for $2,000 $2,000 a month's rent that is common today, and we are rooting for rents to appreciate faster than home prices. And if you want to get our newsletter, you're probably on that list by now, and reading it, I just send some of the best charts in real estate maps to you. You can sign up free right now. Just do it while it's on your mind. Text GRE to 66866, that's text GRE to 66866, for our Don't quit your Daydream Letter. Political season is heating up. We are at a time where we are one month from a general election, and that means we're electing a new president, vice president, 1/3 of the Senate, the entire house of representatives and various state and local officials. Yes, politics matter. Politics affect real estate. So why don't I discuss this more here on the show. Well, I explained that to you a while ago. It gets divisive, and it rarely affects people as much as they think. And as you know, I avoid even using words like Democrat, Republican, left, right, conservative and liberal. And why do I do that? Because they are divisive terms. The problem isn't so much politics. It's when people get infected with the partisan mind virus. Yes, they put party over country. For example, a partisan political instigator will swear to god that the economy is great now, but as soon as, say, a different party wins an election, even if the economy is the same, although now say that that same economy is awful. In fact, a couple years ago, I quit my job as a writer for a publication that you've heard of before. I no longer contribute to them. They put party before country, in my opinion, I wrote an article for them about two years ago, and my article made it sound like an eminent recession was a question, not a foregone conclusion. Well, the editor let me know that their consensus of writers feels like a recession is eminent and that I need to change my article to reflect that that's because they don't like the administration that's in power, so I quit rather than edit my article. I mean, if you just ask an American the question, this question, do you wish that America were less divided? Well. Any sane person would answer that question, yes. Well, then why would you go attach divisive labels to the other side and attack them? It makes no sense. That's where the division comes from. So really, it ought to be about solutions and ideologies and not political parties. So this is another reason why, during political season, I don't play those games, and we stick to investing the economy and wealth mindset. I mean, virtually no other country in the world drags out their presidential election cycle this long. I mean, it's like a year and a half. Remember all those debates last year and names like Nikki Haley and Vivek Ramaswamy that were in the news all the time. I mean, other countries get this entire process over with in six weeks. Let's take a page from them, and that way we can have more constructive things in our news cycle. Well, I am coming to you from the makeshift mobile GRE studio today, like I do some weeks, because this morning, I woke up in reading Pennsylvania. Reading is, in fact, my birthplace, and besides being the pretzel capital of the United States, one way that you know about reading is from the Reading Railroad property in the board game Monopoly. Yeah, it's one of the properties that you can buy and, I guess, collect rent on. And, you know, here we are a real estate show. So maybe it's appropriate that the namesake of my birthplace is immortalized as a property on America's best known real estate game. And it also might be appropriate that I'm back here because the 10th anniversary of the launch of this show is nigh this coming Thursday, on October 10, 1010, it will be 10 years since episode one of this show. And yes, the math, I suppose, checks out, because there are about 52 weeks in a year, and you are listening to episode 522, right now. Well, listen to this. This could blow your mind. Have you heard an AI generated podcast? And I don't just mean sort of where a robot reads a blog in monotone and then you listen to that audio file that's embedded in the article. No, that's not what I'm talking about. Here's what I mean. A few weeks ago, I learned that macroeconomist Richard Duncan, who was the first ever guest on this show back in 2014 Gosh, all these tie ins to GRE 's origins today? Well, Richard published some PDF charts, and he uploaded them to notebooklm.google.com, that's how you find this. And he clicked generate audio overview, and within three minutes, it had created a podcast with two virtual people having this pretty intelligent, engaging and even humorous conversation about his presentation on interest rates. I mean, wow, just listen to the first minute or minute and a half of this AI generated podcast here. And again, this is from about a month ago. So they're talking about the upcoming Fed rate cut that did indeed happen.

13:23

All right, ready to dive in. Today, we're tackling the big question everyone wants to know, will the Fed actually cut rates on September 18? It's the question on everyone's mind, for sure, and more importantly, for our listeners, what's it going to mean for them to help us unpack this whole thing. We're looking at this report. It's by economist Richard Duncan, called why the Fed will cut September 12, 2024. Duncan always brings unique perspective. He cuts right to the chase, which I appreciate. right! So let's jump right in. Duncan starts by talking about inflation, which, let's face it, we've all been feeling the heat from this past year. Yeah, it's been a wild ride. Inflation hit a pretty brutal 9% last year. I think my grocery bills are still recovering. Oh yeah, tell me about it. But the latest number shows down to 2.5% that's both by the CPI and importantly, the PCE Price Index, right? And that PCE is the one the Fed really keeps their eye on, exactly, which is why I wanted to ask you about that. Why is the PCE like the golden child for the Fed, why not just stick with the CPI? Everyone knows that one. well, It's all about getting the most accurate picture of inflation. Think of it like this. The CPI is like taking a quick glance at prices. You know, just a snapshot in time. Okay with you, but the PCE, that's more like a movie. It captures how our spending habits change as prices change, and that gives the fed a better look at those underlying trends driving inflation. So it's like the CPI with a little bit of a crystal ball. It's trying to anticipate what's going to happen. It's got it okay? So inflation seems to be cooling down, which is good news, right?

Keith Weinhold 14:56

Gosh, that's just really good, a totally realistic sounding AI generated podcast just from some PDF files. The macro economist Richard Duncan uploaded remarkable and you know that the quality of that is only going to get better. That's probably about as bad as it's ever going to be right there. And in fact, in another 10 years, listeners could find it rather cute or quaint that we find this remarkable today. A big thanks to Richard Duncan for allowing us to play that and also expect Richard to be back here with us on the show again before the year ends, and here on the 10th anniversary week of the GRE podcast, you know, it makes me wonder how expendable my job as podcast host is going to be. I hope that I'm here with you in another 10 years, and I completely plan to be. Well episode number one of the get rich education podcast back from 2014 is called your abundance mindset. So it's apropos to visit a mindset topic today I'm going to do that with firebrand Speaker This week's guest, Garrett Gunderson. Here shortly, do you want to live a life that is small and safe and sheltered? I doubt that you really do, but you know, safe decision after safe decision, that's what most people end up doing. Do you want your kids to live a small, safe, sheltered life? I mean, most parents want safety for their children, but they're going to have an outsized impact on others when they study and then take the right risks. We're discussing those types of wealth creation mindsets with Garrett. He's a really talented guy. He was last with us six years ago. He's done some stand up comedy. Many have remarked that Garrett looks like Jesus Christ. He's the author of some popular books, including killing sacred cows. Let's talk to Garrett. This week's guest is a pretty well known author and speaker. He helps you make, keep and grow your money to help you live your best life. He's an especially dynamic speaker, public speaker, and I'm confident that you'll be able to hear that on the show today, because he has a great knowledge base, and he speaks with this conviction on topics that make him so compelling. Hey, it's been a few years. Welcome back to GRE Garrett Gunderson.

Garrett Gunderson 17:38

good to be back. I thought that was a very honest, like, pretty well known, like, I'm not really well known pretty well. That's just enough to annoy my wife. Like, I'll be going through an airport and someone come over and talk to me, and she's like, ah, but I love it, dude. I love conversations with people that I don't know, and I just get to meet because if they engage in my work, it gives us a chance to connect. And sometimes it makes me look cool to my kids, which is always a good thing. You know what I'm saying, like my son will be with me and someone say, hey, love killing sacred cows, or, Hey, are you that guy on YouTube? I'm like, it could be me, or you might be thinking, I'm Jesus. You know what I'm saying. I look familiar, though.

Keith Weinhold 18:14

Yeah. Now you can tell your kids that I said you are pretty well known. And you know, Garrett, you're also a really keen and perceptive person. You can tell if somebody's poor within 60 seconds of what they say. Tell us about that.

Garrett Gunderson 18:31

Oh, man, that video has so much hate. Man. I put that out like it was my son's filming, and I'm just sitting in our kitchen, and I was just thinking about a conversation I had earlier that day, and in the conversation, it was like, more about complaining about the world, saying that they couldn't afford things, saying they didn't have the time, blaming everyone for their situation. And I was like, man, it's pretty easy to tell. And 60 seconds, I mean, I guess maybe is a rash statement, because maybe it takes three minutes or 300 seconds, like five minutes, and get deep enough, but you just find that there's a certain language to poverty, and whether that's just poor in spirit, whether it's poor in mind, or whether it's poor in the bank account, typically it's devoid of personal responsibility. It's leading the levels of inspiration. And this isn't to say that if you're wealthy, that you only speak inspiring conversations. I mean, I complain sometimes that happens. I get frustrated. I get disappointed in myself for not being nicer to a customer service person and like, have to really manage that sometimes. But ultimately, it's this language that is almost like a Marxist type of language, you know, that comes from a place of like, I want this. I'm owed that we deserve this. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, like, who's going to produce that? And so it's something that's a fairly easy thing to detect with just a few questions. Like, if I'm given one question, I can tell in 60 seconds for sure.

Keith Weinhold 19:57

Yeah. I think a lot of times people start complaining. About something. People find money a scarce resource when they start, you know, complaining about gas prices or something like that, I think that's just really a classic one. It tells me where they're coming from. I mean, it tells me what their mind is occupying.

Garrett Gunderson 20:12

Right. And if we're not excited about our future, if we're not developing our skill sets, if we're not really engaged in the world of value creation, it's easy to get frustrated about tax it's easier to get frustrated about inflation. It's easier to get complaining about interest rates or loan rates and all those kind of things. But what I find is the best way to outpace inflation is through skill set, and if we truly invest in ourselves and invest in other people so that we increase our quality of life and our enjoyment of it along the way, we increase all the skill sets that matter. You've mentioned that I'm a decent public speaker and that I'm articulate. That comes from going through writing courses and hiring speaking coaches and just getting the reps and doing comedy and the things that will help me to become a more effective communicator. And then it's really about becoming a better cash flow investor. I know that you teach people a lot around, you know, real estate and investing, and that's one of the big three assets in my mind, that helps people generate and create cash flow. But most people are trapped in this indoctrination where they set money aside and forget it. They wait for 30 years and hope for the best. They're very one dimensional of just paying off a loan and then hoping the retirement plan is going to get them there. And that's why they end up in this mindset where they're like, oh, I don't feel in control, because the outcome of my income is something that's dictated by the economy and not my own willpower, not my own skill set, not my own value creation. And I think that's why retirement is such a bad and faulty notion. My main statement in life is create the life you don't want to retire from. Now, I get it. In the industrial age, people need to retire because they were being worked to death and they weren't living for very long. It was an immensely valuable concept back then, a blue to collar world back then? Yeah, right. But in today's world, what if people just invested more time in selecting your career that mattered or had enough faith and took a leap on themselves to start becoming a better investor or start a business or be an entrepreneur where they get upside potential, instead of just begging for safety and security, instead of just wanting the entitlement of benefits, instead of just trading time for money, like that's an industrial age concept that we watched, whether it's our parents or grandparents, go through trading time for money, but we're in a world where that's not required any longer, because we do have technology, we do have artificial intelligence, we do have these things that are starting to displace The jobs that no one really wants to do because it beats down the body, and there's a lot of opportunity for those that are willing to grasp it and go for it, but it comes down to one key thing, value creation. And if we're going to be devoid of value creation, it's easy to tell in 60 seconds whether someone's poor because value creation was not part of their concept or their purview.

Keith Weinhold 22:40

And value creation is about expanding that upside. And a lot of poverty mindsets just complain about the downside their expenses. And you can't really do that much about your expenses. You can only lower them so much. Anytime you do, you're probably diminishing your quality of life anyway. And really, I think a lot of this mindset of lack Garrett comes back to the fact that, simply, most believe that money itself is a scarce resource. I probably believe that at one time, when I was younger, maybe you did too. And as I like to say, although I wasn't the first person that said it, the only place that you get money is from other people. So most people, which tend to be employees, think their way to increase their income is only if their employer gives them a raise, or maybe if they find a new employer that pays them maybe 10% more, or something like that. So they're limiting their upside over there because they think money's a scarce resource, because it's got to come from an employer. Somehow they're not thinking about, why don't you really expand your upside and start an Amazon business, or rent cars through Turo or Airbnb rentals, or what we do here at get risk education, help people with long term housing rentals. So it just kind of comes back to the fact that, you know, people's mind is closed off, and they just simply want to believe that money is a scarce resource.

Garrett Gunderson 23:57

They're adding to computer screens as we talk about this, you know, I mean, there's never been more money in the world than there is today. It's the most money there's ever been. We keep adding it. There's, you know, so much of it out there. But even if they stopped printing it, or they stopped adding it to balance sheets, there's an infinite number of times they can exchange hands. So if we use it to buy computers and clothes or food and shelter or entertainment like comedy and concerts, the more times money exchanges hands, the more values created. It's exchange that facilitates and creates wealth in the way that we create exchanges, serving others, solving problems and adding value. And here's the deal, we can have two parties do exchange with one another and both end up wealthier. It doesn't need to be a win, lose transaction. As a matter of fact, when people transact, they agree that what they bought was worth more than their money, or if they sold it, they agree that the money was more than what they sold. Otherwise they would have kept it. We don't do equal exchange. I wouldn't give you $1 for $1 right? There's no reason to exchange. It's unequal, which means, if you can provide something more efficiently than. I can for myself. I can pay you, which frees up my time to do what I most efficiently and effectively can do. I did triathlons because I was an idiot back in the day. Sorry for those triathletes, which is like a lot of work, man. And I don't love swimming, but I remember going to buy a triathlon bike. I just bought, like, a road bike. It was a big upgrade from having a huffy from Walmart, you know, like, oh, this $4,700 this is a while back, but it was carbon fiber. It was, like, amazing. And I thought, you know, I could never build this. So this $4,700 is actually really cheap, because I'm giving him $4,700 to build something that I can then go build something like write a book or do some consulting or do a speech that can inspire someone. And so that exchange was valuable. It's like if you bought killing cigarette cows. For me, you're saying that it was worth more than $20 I'm saying it was worth less because I already have the knowledge in my head, and so we both can end up wealthier. Unequal exchange is what facilitates wealth. What it lets us do is tap into our best abilities and tap into other people's best abilities. And that exchange ends up growing over time, and the more times money circulates because of Good Services and experiences, the more output there is. So look at today. Hundreds of years ago, if you wanted to listen to music, you had to hire a quartet. Now it's free for almost anyone, if you have any device of any sort, if you're willing to listen to a commercial here or there, you can listen to anything that you want. For the most part, you don't even have to pay for it. So think about that advancement. If you want to be anywhere in the world, you could be there in almost 24 hours or less, back in the day, that would have taken, you know, years for that matter. I mean, we have so much more wealth because we keep building upon previous wealth, previous ideas, and those blueprints we continue to grow from with new innovation and ingenuity. Therefore, the quality of life for someone that's middle class today is infinitely more than the middle class of hundreds of years ago, the amount of people that are hungry today versus years ago, even though we have more than 8 billion people on the planet, has gone down as a percentage, not up as a percentage. That's because of velocity and exchange. It's because of this notion that money's not scarce and resources have the way to be replenished, as long as we're stewards. Now, if the bison, if we kill too many of them, then they can't replenish, right? But if we manage that properly, you could actually eat the bison, use the skins, do all that kind of stuff, and still have that exist in the future. These people that don't believe in that believe that there's like a finite pie, that if one thing's gone, it's gone forever, not understanding value exchange, reproduction, apparently, and basic science either. And again, we can overdo those things and damage an ecosystem. So there is a balance.

Keith Weinhold 27:36

Yeah, that's right, when you talk about value creation, then you're really not talking about a person going out and trying to get their piece of the pie. Really more accurately what you're talking about. Here are ideas for expanding the entire pie.

Garrett Gunderson 27:51

Spam the pie. Expand your means you can budget and reduce. You said it eloquently. You said, Hey, there's only so much you can do in reduction of expenses before it just starts infringing and taking away from things that you value in life. There's a finite game there, but the expansion gain through co creation, through collaboration, instead of through competition, is absolutely an infinite pie that continues to grow as we add more value, as we serve more people, as we solve bigger problems, as we more deeply impact the people that we impact as we reach more people, these are things that can lead to more dollars. So I have this thing called the value equation. It's our mental capital, ideas, knowledge, wisdom, insights, strategies and tools multiplied by our relationship capital, people, networks, organizations, communities, friends, family, mentors, equals our financial capital. So financial capital is a byproduct of our stewardship of our mental and relationship capital. And the bridge between mental relationship capital is what we call business, or we call investing. So ultimately, Money Follows value. How do we add more value? Have a better idea. Impact more people. More more deeply. Impact the people you currently serve. Collaborate and offer more like it's an infinite pie and an infinite game. If we play it that way. We're talking with speaker and author Garrett Gunderson, about the mindset of wealth creation. More. We come back with Garrett. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold 29:01

hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they've provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings if your money isn't making 4% Percent, you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work. With minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text family 266, 866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family 266, 866,

Hal Elrod 30:54

this is Hal Elrod author of The Miracle Morning and listen to get it rich. Education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 31:10

welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with firebrand speaker and author Garrett Gunderson. You can learn more about him at Garrettgunderson.com. Garrett before the break, we were talking about the mindset in opening up one in order to create more wealth over time. Here, a lot of times, one way we talk about that is, don't just get your money to work for you. Get other people's money to work for you. You could actually use other people's money ethically three ways at the same time, in real estate, using the tenant's money for the income stream the government's money for generous tax incentives, and then the bank's money for the leverage, which is actually a greater wealth building force than compound interest. That's one example of how we do that here. But when one has become successful, oftentimes they want to make sure that that's lasting. They want to build a legacy, something that they can carry on. And I know you articulate that through the Rockefeller method. So do you want to tell us more about that?

Garrett Gunderson 32:05

I wrote this book. What would the Rockefellers do back in 2016 this study between really wealthy families versus their wealth lasted, versus wealthy families that decimated it, and the best study was really the Vanderbilt because they had more money than the US Treasury. One the railroad family, yeah, transportation. And you know what? They destroyed that Cornelius died, and then his eldest son doubled the estate nine years and then he died, and that was the last time their estate grew. It started to decrease after that. And 54 years later, the first Vanderbilt died broke, and so the last Vanderbilt family union didn't have any millionaires at it. I know everybody knows about like Vanderbilt University. They donated like, a million dollars to get that started. But, you know, that was pretty inconsequential compared to their overall net worth. But they didn't have a formula or format to create sustainable wealth. They own 10 mansions in in Manhattan. They don't own those anymore. They own the breakers in Rhode Island. The state of Rhode Island owns that now. So they lost this massive amount of wealth where the Rockefellers are just entering their seventh generation of passing on, well, seven generations, wow. And people that worked for the rock bellers, like the executives, they're still passing on, well, for this generation after generation. And most people don't make it past the third generation. And we could look at, you know, people like Walt Disney. We could look at people like JCPenney. We could look at people, you know, like the the Kennedy family and so many others that have used these two things to really create sustainable wealth. Number one is they use trust. The Rockefellers coined the term own nothing and control everything, whether that's a revocable living trust for people who are just starting out and don't have a substantial amount of wealth, or a domestic asset protection trust for those that have a decent amount of wealth, those are the two main popular ones. There are some offshore trusts. It gets onerous and complicated once you go offshore, but it does protect your assets. The second piece is using whole life insurance, so they have this death benefit that's on the insured, and they put that on their heirs, so that every time an heir dies, it replenishes the trust, and potentially even grows it, because there's these threats to the family wealth, there's taxes, there's inflation, there's interest rate fluctuations or market, you know, economic turmoil. So what they're doing is they're creating that level of stability, and they give them preferred interest rates to borrow from the trust versus a bank. So now your family can actually earn interest instead of paying interest. And yes, if your family is paying interest, they're paying it back to their future generation at Preferred rates. And so you could be one generation away from never needing a bank again and actually being able to capitalize on deals a whole lot faster. Specifically, we use whole life, because it transfers the risk to the insurance company. There's six or seven companies that are participating, mutual companies that have been around for over 150 years, always paid dividends. It protects your cash value from taxes. It protects it from liability and bankruptcy in over 40 states, fully and partially in every state. So what happens is, for an asset allocation decision. You can start moving some of your fixed income portfolio to this and have a better, more robust benefits type of situation, and then actually start to implement this Rockefeller method so that you can create generational wealth.

Keith Weinhold 35:12

All right, so the Rockefeller method using trusts and whole life insurance to preserve and grow your wealth, so as one's building their portfolio, amassing wealth, increasing income streams as they go along in their investor journey. Is there anything that they should keep in mind as they try to integrate some of these things from the Rockefellers?

Garrett Gunderson 35:12

Yeah, a lot of other insurance people try to sell these index universal life policies, but those won't work because they have too many levers of risk, and especially when you're building cash value, you might use that cash value to buy real estate. Then you might use the rental income to put the money back into the policy so you can buy more real estate in the future. So it becomes like a medium storage shed or unit for your cash that's protected, but now it comes with the death benefit, which, here's one example, for a real estate investor, instead of just, you know, rolling it over to the next property and rolling it over to the next property when you eventually sell, you can use a charitable trust. And a charitable trust, you can donate that highly appreciated piece of real estate, get a partial tax deduction, sell it and fund the trust and pay zero tax on your gains. No matter what your basis is, there's no tax on the gains. You're the first beneficiary of the trust, meaning you can take an income between 5% and 50% from the trust while you're alive, depending on the underlying assets, and then when you die, the charity keeps whatever's left over. But if you have a life insurance policy that will replenish what that donation was, therefore giving you 20 30% or more increased cash flow with an asset by making a synergistic allocation. Now, that's a lot of information in a short period of time, but it's more about planting seeds. And don't worry, I'll give everybody a copy of the book at no charge, so they can kind of read it at their own pace, or you can listen to it at their own pace, versus me condensing it into just a couple minutes.

Keith Weinhold 36:56

Oh, thanks. All right, well, we'll learn more about that resource at the end that sounds like that can be really helpful to a lot of people. And I guess Garrett, even though you're not as real estate ish as me, as we wind down here, you know, I think the place that you and I find the most common ground is we often say and help people with the things that sort of fly in the face of conventional guidance. I mean, you really just don't have to think about it that much more than if you just do normal stuff, average, mediocre stuff, you're only going to have a normal, average, mediocre outcome. So can you tell us about any last things that can help get people thinking differently and debunk some of this conventional guidance that really will never help get you much above lower middle class?

Garrett Gunderson 37:40

Yeah, if you're putting your money in mutual funds and ETFs, you're making a bunch of other people money. I mean, the big three is you want to focus on generating cash flow so you can create financial independence. Because if you have enough cash flow from assets to cover your expenses, every active dollar can build more assets. That's an exponential benefit to you. So now that you don't have to be forced to work, you've got a lot more freedom. And the big three for me are real estate businesses or intellectual property, which is kind of, you know, something that is part of business to a degree, but I consider a different asset class. Those are the big three. I have no money in the stock market. I have money in my businesses. I invest in myself. I invest in my vision. I invest in a team, instead of investing in things that I have no control over and I don't get cash flow from and that the economy can change, or that Wall Street's making money on whether I make money or not. So that's just one notion that I think we could probably, you know, agree, flies in the face of what everybody's teaching. That's the masses. But when you look at the wealthiest people, it's how they're implementing and what they're doing.

Keith Weinhold 38:39

And I think another place that conventional guidance really tells people to prioritize is paying down debt or paying off debt. I mean, making your debt free scream at age 34 you know, maybe that's not so bad, but maybe not. I mean, did paying down low to moderate interest rate debt and making that priority sacrifice your lifestyle and your family's lifestyle the entire time while you were doing it, and did it have a steeper opportunity cost, because you were not investing those dollars in things that can earn a greater return than their interest rates were they're using some of the vehicles that you talked about. So, you know, I guess what I'm getting at Garrett philosophically, one way I said it, is that the risk of delayed gratification is denied gratification?

Garrett Gunderson 39:23

Yeah, I mean, if we become sacrifice, how do we ever overcome that habit? I'm I'm scrimping, I'm sacrificing, yeah, I'm deferring. And then one day, what you're supposed to flip the switch be like, Okay, now I'm abundant. I'm gonna enjoy this money that doesn't happen. So that habitual notion of reduce, cut, eliminate, no one shrinks their way to wealth. It's a game of expansion and production. Yes, be efficient, be intelligent, be a steward, but don't become a miser, because misers, no matter how much money they have, never get to feel what it's like to live their richest life. It's always about elimination. Instead of enjoyment and utilization.

Keith Weinhold 40:02

Oh, that is just beautifully stated. I really can't say it any better than that, and that really brings it back full circle as to the best personal finance is probably growing your means rather than practicing living below your means for decades, and then you'll never get that time back. Well, Garrett, you've generated so many good educational resources. Why you've been the successful author and speaker. Tell us more about that.

Garrett Gunderson 40:26

Garrettgunderson.com is where a lot of those resources are. I write a blog like it's 2006 because I love to write and just get information out there. I've created a money persona quiz. So if you go forward slash tools on Garrettgunderson.com you can figure out what's the success or sabotage that happens subconsciously with how you deal with money. It's very informative and useful. I've written 10 books. I offered that if people DM me on Instagram, Garrett B, Gunderson, two R's, two T's, middle initial B and just say, Keith, get rich. Keith get rich. So I know it was on this program, I'll hook you up with the audio and a PDF of the book on me, so that you can hopefully just understand this Rockefeller method and improve your life and start building a legacy right now. Because if you're already doing real estate, that's great, let's make sure to preserve, protect and even perpetuate that wealth with some of the structures that could be integrated.

Keith Weinhold 41:17

Well Garrett, yeah, you have a lot of great resources and just a really wide spectrum of understanding of concepts all across a personal finance field. Is there any last thing you'd like to let our audience know about?

Garrett Gunderson 41:28

Just create the life you don't want to retire from. Design a life that you love. Create enough cash flow from assets to have that economic independence so you have choice and freedom daily of what you do and swing for the fences in that purpose, you know, that's probably the best advice that I could give.

Keith Weinhold 41:43

Why would you want to live your life any other way? Garrett Gunderson, it's been valuable as expected. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.

Garrett Gunderson 41:51

Thanks for having me.

Keith Weinhold 41:58

Yeah, a lot on both mindset and long term wealth preservation with Garrett Gunderson today, now, 15 weeks ago, on episode 507 you'll remember that episode called compound interest is weak, where I made a takedown about how compound Interest actually is not serving people. Leverage does serve people. Garrett also makes a takedown and critiques this myth about how people think compound interest builds wealth. A little review. There some comprehension from 15 weeks ago, compound interest has most people counting on the average annual return when they should be focused on the compound annual growth rate. A little review. Remember the average annual return means if you're up 10% one year and then down 10% next year that you broke even. That's the arithmetic thing. But that is a lie. The reality is in this CAGR, the compound annual growth rate, it reflects, if you're up 10% one year and then down 10% the next year, you're at minus 1% the geometric thing. And that's the reality, and that makes a retirement lifestyles worth of difference, and a retirement ages worth of difference like I thoroughly broke down for you in episode 507 coming up on the show here in future weeks, a familiar name like Tom wheelwright returns, and then new guests, like a former NFL player here on the show, if you want to reach out to Garrett Gunderson on Instagram for his best free resources, even the audio and pdf of his Rockefeller method of generational wealth preservation, again on Instagram, you can DM him at Garrett B Gunderson, he let me know later, all you have to do is send him my first name, Keith, and he will hook you up there. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and I am supremely grateful and even in awe of your devoted listenership for an entire decade of your life and mine, here's to another 10 years. Don't quit your Daydream.

44:21

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,

Keith Weinhold 44:49

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth. Building, get rich, education.com, you.
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521: Terrible Predictions, "End the Fed" and Capitalism with Mises Institute President Dr. Thomas DiLorenzo
30 sep· Get Rich Education
President of the Mises Institute and author of “How Capitalism Saved America”, Dr. Thomas DiLorenzo joins us to uncover the current state of capitalism and if it still exists in America.

Earlier in the episode, Keith discusses the inaccuracy of economic predictions, citing examples like the 2023 recession that never happened, the negative impact of misinformed predictions on investment decisions and business growth.

Persistent housing price crash predictions have been consistently wrong despite global pandemics and higher mortgage rates.

Dr. DiLorenzo advocates for #EndTheFed to reduce inflation and restore free market principles.

Learn how voluntary exchange between buyer and seller through market prices communicates information and influences production.

Resources:

Learn more about Austrian economics and Ludwig von Mises through visiting mises.org

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/521

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:00

Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, reviewing some terrible economic predictions and why it matters to you. Then the President of the Mises Institute joins us. Does capitalism still exist in the US and what would happen if we ended the Fed, today on get rich education.

00:24

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show. Guess who? Top Selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com

Corey Coates 01:09

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:25

welcome to GRE from Syracuse, Sicily to Syracuse, New York, and across 188 nations worldwide, you're listening to one of the longest running and most listened to shows on real estate investing. This is Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, now a lot of media companies and pundits and influencers like to make predictions. Listeners like learning about predictions and by engaging just a little of that each of the past few years on one of the last episodes of the year. Here, I forecast the national home price appreciation rate for the following year, many media outlets, pundits and influencers have made terrible, just absolutely terrible, predictions about interest rates and other financial forecasts. Last year, a majority of Pro prognosticators firmly forecast six or eight Fed rate cuts this year, for example, well, we're going to have far fewer, and that's because high inflation kept hanging around. Then there's the 2023 recession that never happened, yet both Bloomberg and the economist actually published some rather ignominious headlines, as it turned out, they published these in the fall of 2022 Bloomberg, big headline was forecast for us, recession within year hits 100% in blow to Biden, well, That was false. That didn't come true. I mean, 100% that doesn't leave you any room for an out. And then also published in the fall of 2022 The Economist ran this headline why a global recession is inevitable in 2023 All right, well, they both believed in a recession, and they believed in it so deeply that it got fossilized. Well, an economic archeologist like me dug it up.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 03:31

We are going to die

Keith Weinhold 03:35

well, but I didn't risk my life like Indiana Jones did there. This archeology, it only involves some Google searches. Well, here's the thing. What's remarkable about America staving off a mammoth recession and leaving all the other g7 nations in the economic dust is the fact that merely predicting a recession often makes it come true. Just predicting one often turns a recession into a self fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, recession forecast headlines alone, they can spook employers from making new hires and slow down manufacturing, and it can also disillusion real estate investors from expanding their portfolios. Well, the US economy grew anyway, besides the farcical prognostications about myriad interest rate cuts in a quote, unquote definite 2023 recession that never happened. You know, there's also a third forecast that so many got wrong. And you probably know what I'm gonna say. I've brought it up before, because this hits our world, those erstwhile and well still ever present housing price crash predictions. I mean this facet of the gloom boom really ramped up from 2020 One until today, even a global pandemic, new wars and a triplicate mortgage rates couldn't stop the housing price surge and the rent surge. A lot of doomsdayers just couldn't see, or they didn't even want to see that a housing shortage would keep prices afloat. They didn't want to see it because they get more clicks when they talk about the gloom government stimulus programs also buoyed prices, and deep homeowner equity cushions will still keep prices afloat. Ever since 2021 here on the show, I've used that rationale and more to explain that home prices would keep appreciating, but that the rate of appreciation would slow down, and it has slowed down since 2021 see YouTubers tick tockers. They notoriously use woe begone housing crash headlines, because that gets more clicks and then some of the rationale behind this. The reasoning is just dreadful, like, what goes up must come down, all right? Well, this is like, why does it matter? Who cares about wrong predictions anyway? What's the point? Well, people become misinformed. People waste their time on these things and see no one loses money on dismal economic predictions. But the damage is done, because when investors don't act well, then they didn't get the gain that they should have had. Businesses didn't get the gain that they should have had when they could have made new investment and hired new employees sooner. And of course, a recession is going to happen sometime. They occur, on average, every five to six years. It is just a normal part of the business cycle will collectively these three faulty economic predictions, rate cuts, a recession and a housing price crash. I think if you bundle them all up combined, it could be as bad as one doomsday prediction about worldwide starvation or the Mayan apocalypse. Remember that the wide to K bug, the acid rain, even that the internet is just a fad that ran a buck 30 years ago. World War Three is eminent, robots overtaking humans, or how about running out of crude oil. I mean, we're definitely all supposed to have jet packs in flying cars by now, right? But yet, did anyone have the clairvoyance to predict the stock market crash of 1929 or September 11 terrorist attacks, or Trump's surprise, 2016 presidency or Bitcoin hitting 70k A while back, or the coronavirus. So really, overall, the bottom line here with predictions is that no one knows the future. Control what you can maintain equanimity, add good properties, gradually raise rent, reduce expenses, create leverage and expect inflation truly the best way to predict the future is to create it in just that way. Well is the USA capitalistic nation today. That's what we'll discuss later with this week's guest. When Chuck Todd hosted the show Meet the Press, he interviewed AOC about this. Yes, I'm talking about us. House Rep from New York, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, what she say? You

08:34

have said you are democratic socialist. Can you be a Democratic socialist and a capitalist? Well, I think it depends on your interpretation. So there are some Democratic socialists that would say, Absolutely not. There are other people that are democratic socialists that would say, I think it's possible. What are you? I think it's possible. I think you say to yourself, I'm a capitalist, but I don't say that. You know, if anything, I would say, I'm I believe in a democratic economy, but.

Keith Weinhold 09:03

okay, well, I'm not sure if that clears it up at all. And I've listened to more of that clip, and it just makes things more confusing. But I think that most people have trouble drawing a line between capitalism and neighboring economic systems. Where exactly do you draw that line? I don't know exactly where to draw it. When I think of capitalism, I think of things though, like removal of interventionist central planning and allowing the free market to run with few guardrails. And then there's an issue like labor unionization. I don't really know about something like that. This is a real estate show. I'm still forming an opinion on a topic like that. In you know, some of this gets political, and that's beyond the scope of get rich education. The Fed was created in 1913 that central planning, its central banking from 1987 to. 2006 Alan Greenspan reigned as Fed chair. Those were his years, and he became even more interventionist. And then his successor, Ben Bernanke, maybe even more so with quantitative easing and such. Let's talk about, should they end the Fed and capitalism with this week's expert guest. You very well may have heard of the late, famed Austrian American economist Ludwig von Mises today, the Mises Institute carries on his legacy, and this week's guest is none other than the President of the Mises Institute. He's also the number one best selling author of how capitalism saved America and his newer book with a title that I love, The Politically Incorrect Guide to Economics. Hey, it's great to have you here. It is. Dr Thomas DiLorenzo.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 11:00

pleased to be with you. Thanks for having me.Th

Keith Weinhold 11:02

Well, Dr DiLorenzo, for those that don't know, just tell us a bit in an overview about Austrian economics and what Ludwig von Mises stood for.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 11:02

Well, Ludwig von Mises was the preeminent critic of socialism and fascism in Europe, and in his day, he fled the Nazis literally hours before the Gestapo broke into his apartment in Geneva, because he was the preeminent critic of fascism and socialism, and he was also Jewish, and so he had to get out of town. And he miraculously ended up after wandering through Europe with his wife in New York City, and he taught at New York University for many years, until he died in 1973 and but the Austrian School of Economics is a school of thought. It has nothing to do with, necessarily, with the Government of Austria, the country of Austria, just this the founder of a man named Carl Menger happened to be from Austria, but probably the most famous or well known among Americans would be Friedrich Hayek, who won the Nobel Prize in 1970s he was a student of Ludwig von Mises and critics of interventionism, critics of socialism. We teach about free markets, of how markets actually work and how governments don't work. And that's in a nutshell, that's what it's about. And you could check out our website, mises.org, M, I, S, E, S.org, you can get a great economic education. We have a lot of free books to download. Some of them are downloaded 30 or 40,000 times a month. Still, it's even Mises old books like human action, first published in the 1960s and so you can get a great education just by reading our website.

Keith Weinhold 12:42

Well, congratulations, that's proof that you're doing an excellent job of carrying on the Mises legacy into the present day, a lot of which is championing capitalism. Do we have capitalism in the United States today?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 12:59

I was an economics professor from 40 years before I got this job as President of the Mises Institute. And I used to say we had islands of socialism in a sea of capitalism at the beginning of my career. But now I'd say it's the opposite, that we have islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism. And socialism, this data is not defined anymore as government ownership. That was, you know, about 100 years ago, the socialism. It's basically government control of industry and in addition to government ownership. So the instruments of the welfare state, the income tax and the regulatory state, is our version of socialism, or central planning, if you will. And it's the Federal Reserve the Fed, which is a government agency that orchestrates the whole thing, really, it's a big, massive central planning industry that controls, regulates basically every aspect of any kind of financial transaction imaginable. They list in their publications over 100 different functions of the Federal Reserve. It's not just monetary policy. It's a big regulatory behemoth, and so that's that's what the Fed is. That's what I think we have today. A friend of mine, Robert Higgs, a well known economic historian, says our system is what he calls participatory fascism. And fascism was a system where private enterprise was permitted, but it was so heavily regulated and regimented by the government that industry had to do what government wanted to do, not what its customers wanted it to do, so much, and a large part of our economic system is just like that, and we get to vote still, so that's where the participatory and comes in, and the pin of Robert Hinz.

Keith Weinhold 14:41

yeah, maybe at best, I can think of today's system as capitalism with guardrails on but the guardrails keep getting taller. And I think of guardrails as being, for example, regulatory agencies like the Fed in FINRA. In the FDA.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 15:01

It is the beginning of my career. You know, I studied economics and a PhD in economics, and there was a big literature on what's called regulatory capture. And it was sort of a big secret among US economic academics. There was all this research going on and how the big regulatory agencies created by the federal government in the late 19th, early 20th centuries, were captured by the industries that they were supposed to be regulating. Right? The theory was they would regulate these industries in the public's best interests. But what has happened from the very beginning is they were captured by the industries, and they benefit the industry at the expense of the public. But today, that's caught on thanks to people like Robert Kennedy Jr, frankly, has been a very popular author. He sold a gazillion copies of his book on Anthony Fauci, and in it, he explains in tremendous detail how the Food and Drug Administration was long ago captured by the pharmaceutical companies. And he's not the only one. I think that that is being more and more recognized by people outside of academic economics, like me, and that's a good thing, and that's sort of the worst example of crony capitalism. It's not real capitalism, but crony capitalism making money through government connections, rather than producing better products, cheaper products and so forth.

Keith Weinhold 16:21

I watched RFK Jr speak in person recently, and I was actually disappointed when he effectively dropped out of the upcoming presidential race. And I do want to talk more with you about the Fed shortly, but with all these regulatory agencies and how I liken them to guard rails. You know, I sort of think of it as a watchdog system that's failing. You mentioned the FDA. I know RFK Jr brought them up an awful lot, the Food and Drug Administration that are supposed to help regulate what we put inside our own bodies in our diet. But these systems are failing. We have regulatory agencies in industry, industry in regulatory agencies. I mean, look at the obesity rate. Look at all the ultra processed food that's allowed. Look at all the seed oils that are allowed in food that people actually think are healthy for them. So this system of capitalism with guardrails is failing almost everywhere you look.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 16:22

I wouldn't call it capitalism. I wouldn't use the word capitalism at all, other than crony capitalism, people can relate to that. You know, a lot of these regulatory agencies were lobbied for in the first place by industry. That while the very first one was the Interstate Commerce Commission, it was in the 1880s it was meant to regulate the railroad companies. The first president was the president of a Railroad Corporation, the head of the Interstate Commerce Commission. So talk about the fox guarding the hen house. That was from the very beginning. And so in a sense, this word capture theory of regulation, which Kennedy has used, they weren't really captured. They always were created by the government. The same is true of all the so called Public Utilities. It was the corporations, the electric power companies, the water supply companies, that lobbied for governments to give them a monopoly, a legal monopoly, in electricity, water supply and all these things that were called natural monopolies, but there was nothing natural about them. There was vigorous competition in the early 20th century in telephone, electricity, water supply, and that was all set aside by government regulation, creating monopolies. For example, in electric power, there's an economist named Walter primo who wrote a book some years ago showing that always have been several dozen cities in America that never went this way, that always allowed direct competition between electric power companies. And what do you know, better service and lower prices. As a result, they did dozens of statistical studies to demonstrate this in his book.

Keith Weinhold 18:58

Okay, well, that's a great case study. Why don't we talk about what things would look like if we took down one of these agencies? We're a real estate investing in finance show. Sometimes it's a popular meme or hashtag to say, end the Fed. What would it look like if we ended the Fed?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 19:18

Well, the Fed was created in 1913 in the same era, with all these other regulatory captured agencies were created, right? And it was created basically to cartelize and create a cartel for the banking industry to make it almost impossible to go bankrupt. They've been bailing out foolish bankers for 111 years. And of course, the biggest example was that as the crash of 08 after they they handed Goldman Sachs and other big investment banks billions of dollars. That was a direct assault on capitalism itself, because capitalism, as you know, is a profit and loss system. It's not a I keep the profits. You pay for my losses system. You're the taxpayer. But that's what happened with that. So the Fed would. Fall into that the Fed is actually the fourth central bank in America. We had three other ones. First one was called Bank of North America. Its currency was so unreliable, nobody trusted it went out of business in a year and a half. And then we created something called the Bank of the United States in 1791 same thing. It created boom and bust cycles, high unemployment, price inflation, corrupted politics. It was defunded after 20 years, and then it was brought back to fund the debt from the war of 1812 and so we had a Second Bank of the United States. It did the same thing, boom and bust cycles, price inflation, corrupted politics. Benefited special interest, but not the general interest, and President Andrew Jackson defunded it, and so we went without a central bank from roughly 1840 until 1913 so we've had experience of that. And what we had been was competing currencies, and that would be sort of a stepping stone. If we got rid of the fed, we wouldn't have to abolish the Fed altogether. We could amend the charter to the Fed to say you're no longer permitted to buy bonds. Can't buy government bonds anymore. That's how they inflate the money supply, right? By buying bonds. That's totally unnecessary. And we could just just that would be a great step forward, and we would sort of whittle away our $80 trillion debt, if you count again upon count the unfunded liabilities of the federal government,

Keith Weinhold 21:26

if we did end the Fed, what would the price of money? Which are interest rates really look like? Would a new market rate be sent by individuals and companies on the free market like Bank of America, with a customer or borrower settling on an interest rate that they both agree to.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 21:44

You know, the Fed uses sort of Soviet style economics, price control. The economists and are all getting all over Kamala Harris for recommendations for price controls on rent and other things. Well, the Fed price control. They control the price of money. That's what they do. And so there's a big, kind of a comical thing that here you have all these economists, if they were to teach economics in the week one, they would teach about the bad effects of price controls, and then they get a job at the Fed, and they spend their whole career enforcing price controls on money, and the interest rate would be determined by supply and demand for credit and inflationary expectations. That's what the market does. And you wouldn't have these bureaucrats at the Fed tinkering around with interest rates, creating tremendous arbitrage opportunities for Wall Street investors. With all the movements and interest rates, you'd have much more stable interest rates, and and you wouldn't have this ridiculous system where the Fed says we need to always have forever at least 2% inflation. And of course, they never meet that, and they lie about it. I don't believe for one minute that the price inflation right now is 3% or under 3% that's ridiculous, right? And so things should be getting cheaper. Everything should be getting cheaper because of all the technology we have. My first PC I bought in the early 80s for $4,000 and it was a piece of prehistoric junk compared to my cell phone today, that almost for free. Almost everything should be like that agriculture, but the reason it isn't is the Fed keeps pumping so much money in circulation, that it pumps up the demand for goods and services, and that's what creates price inflation. And by its own admission, that's what it does, even though it's charter, it's original charter said they're supposed to fight inflation. All of a sudden, about 10 years ago or so, they announced, south of blue, we always have to have at least 2% inflation. Congress had nothing to do with that. President had nothing to do with that, and the people of America had nothing to do with that. It was dictators like Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke that just make these announcements. And where does that come from when we live under the dictatorship of the Fed? And of course, the people who are hurt the most by the Fed are elderly people are living on relatively fixed incomes and are forced to become Wall Street speculators they want to make any more money other than their fixed income, where, you know, during the days of Greenspan, when they're pursuing zero interest rates, maybe the mortgage industry like that, but the people on retirement income were starving as a result of that. So it's been sort of an economic war on the retired population.

Keith Weinhold 24:24

Things should get faster and cheaper to produce, like you said. However, there's definitely one thing that's not getting faster to produce, that's housing build times. Housing build times have actually gone up, which is sort of another discussion unto itself. But we talk about the Fed and then setting prices. People wouldn't stand for setting the price or having price controls on oil or lumber or bananas, but yet we set the price of money itself. People have just become accustomed to that. Yet it's that money itself that we use to buy oil and lumber and bananas the fed with that dual mandate of stable prices and maximum employment. If we did abolish the Fed, what would happen to the rate of inflation?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 25:12

Well, we would have less inflation. It's supposed to what we replace it with. There's some system would be a replacement, but we wouldn't have the boom and bust cycles that we have now. There's been research in the past 100 years or so of the Fed, and what the academic researchers have concluded is that the Fed has made the economy in general more unstable than it was before we had the Fed and price inflation. That's a joke. The dollar is worth maybe three cents of what it was in the year 1913 right when the Fed was created. So it has failed on all accounts. And so if we got rid of it, we would reverse that. The idea would be to start out with a competing money system. And I'll tell you a quick story is, you know the word Dixie from the south, you know land of Dixie that was named after a currency by a New Orleans bank called the Dix D, I x 10 in French, and it was 100% gold reserve. It was backed by something real and valuable, and it was so popular as even used in Minnesota. But that's why the whole south, the states in the South, were using this currency, because it was so reliable. But during the Civil War, the national currency acts imposed taxes on the competing currencies and taxed them out of business and established the greenback dollar, as it was called, as the Monopoly money of the country. We didn't get a central bank during the Civil War, but we got that. And so that's the kind of system that we would have. Friedrich Hayek wrote a whole book about this, about competing currencies, called the denationalization of money. He poses that as a good stepping stone to a freer market in money. And like you said, Money is the most important thing. Is most more important than bananas or shoes or any of these other things that we might have price controls on.

Keith Weinhold 27:01

All right, so we're talking about the case for ending the Fed. What is the counter argument? I mean, other than the government wanting control, is there a valid, or any academic counter argument for keeping the Fed in place?

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 27:16

The Fed has an army. I call it the Fed's Praetorian Guard of academics. There was a research article published by an economist named Larry White at George Mason University several years ago, and he found that 75% of all the articles in the academic journals regarding money, monetary policy and so forth, are by people who are basically paid by the Fed, one way or the other. Either they're fed economists, or they've been invited to a conference by the Fed, or they're an intern some relationship with the Fed. The late Milton Friedman once said, If you want a career as a monetary economist, it's not a good idea to criticize the biggest employer in your field. So there's a lot of nonsense about that. And so yes, you'll have all sorts of rationales, but it basically comes down to this, that we think we can do central planning better than the Russians did under communism, because the Fed is basically an economic central planning agency, and there's no reason to believe Americans are better at it than the Russians or anybody else. And it basically comes down to that, you know, studying the past 111 years that's showing Well, yeah, they've been trying that for 111 years. They've made the economy more unstable, and they have failed miserably to control inflation. And why should we give them another chance? Why should we continue along this road? We shouldn't So, yeah, there'll be all kind of excuses the late Murray Rothbard, who was one of the founders of the Mises, who once answered this question by saying, It's as though people said, Well, say the government always made shoes. 100 years ago they took over the shoe industry. People would be saying, who will make shoes if the government doesn't make shoes? The government has always made shoes, right? But the government has not always monopolized the money supply. It's only like I said, we abolished three Feds in our history. In American history, they weren't called the Fed, but they were central banks. And the Fed is called a central bank, and we've done that three times. We've abolished more central banks than we have kept in American history.

Keith Weinhold 29:17

We're talking with Dr Thomas D Lorenzo. He is the president of the Mises Institute. About, is there really any capitalism left more when we come back, this is Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group and MLS 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at RidgeLendingGroup.com, that's Ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text family to 66866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, family to 66866.

Kristen Tate 31:11

This is author Kristen Tate. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and Don't quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 31:27

welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with Dr Thomas DiLorenzo. He is the president of the Mises Institute. You can learn more about them @mises.org and Dr DiLorenzo. Frederick Hayek, an economist that you mentioned very well known and a student of Ludwig von Mises, he believed that prices are a communication mechanism between a buyer and a seller. Say, for example, there's a new style of single family rental home that everyone wants to rent. So therefore the rent price goes up when other builders see that the rent price goes up, that brings in more builder competition, and with more competition, that brings rent prices down, and then the world is filled with abundant housing, rather than a scarcity of housing. So that's how I think of a free market system within capitalism as working, as defined through Hayek.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 32:22

You know, the consumer is king. Von Mises once wrote about the same point where he said that people mistakenly believe that it's the bankers and the CEOs and the businesses that control what gets produced and so forth, but it's really the consumer. You build a housing development then people don't want those houses. You'll find out real fast who's in charge. It's not the mortgage brokers. It's not the bankers. It's not you, it's the consumer. That's the free market system, and if you do without it, and not using the free market system, whether it's for money or anything else, is kind of like trying to find your way around a strange city with no street signs, and the prices are the street signs that tell us what to do, exactly like you said, if there's strong demand for a certain type of housing, that'll drive the price up, and that'll tell the home builders, we can make money building more of these. And they will do that. Nobody tells them. The Chairman of the Fed doesn't have to tell them that the President doesn't have to tell them that Congress doesn't have to issue a declaration telling them to do that. That was the Soviet Union where they tried that. And that's the great thing about the market, is that the consumer can tell the richest man in the world like Elon Musk, go play in the traffic. Elon Musk, if they don't like his cars or whatever he's producing, even though he's the richest man in the world. And he understands that he's a pretty successful businessman, I would say, and so so he understands that the consumer is his boss.

Keith Weinhold 33:53

Well, what else do we need to know? You have published a lot of celebrated books, from how capitalism saved America to the politically incorrect guide to economics. What else might a real estate investor or an economic enthusiast need to know today? Oh,

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 34:10

well, I think everybody needs to be their own economist. You can listen to the talking heads on TV and on podcasts and all that, but educate yourself and become your own economist. Because a lot of the people on TV, as you might see on the news, they have an ax to grind, or they have a sort of a hidden financial interest beyond what they're saying, Be your own economist. And that's why I'm selling my website, which is everything on it, it's for free, mises.org, and there are quite a few others too. You don't have to go to school, you don't have to get a degree. You can get a good economic education, for example, on money. We're in the middle of giving away 100,000 copies of a book called What has government done to our money. I'm Murray rothbar. You go to our website, scroll down to the bottom, and you can fill out a form online, and we'll send you free books and. You can educate yourself that way. And so just in general, I think that's what people need to do. I taught MBA students for many years who are people in their 30s or maybe even early 40s, who didn't have economics degrees, but they were really into it, and for the first time in their careers, they decided maybe I should understand how the economic world that I live in and work in every day operates rather than going through your life and your career without you. Might know all about real estate sales, but it's also useful to know about the economy in general and how things work.

Keith Weinhold 35:35

And when one becomes their own economic student and they take that on, I think it's important for them, like you touched on to not just consume the economic news that's on CNBC or other major media, because that doesn't really tell you how to create wealth. It might inform you, but it doesn't necessarily tell you how to take action. For example, on this show an educational channel, you might learn about a story about rising inflation like we had starting three or four years ago. And here we talk about how, okay, if inflation is going to be a long term economic force, you may or may not like what the Fed is doing, but rather than save money, borrow money, outsource that debt service to the tenant on a cash flowing asset like a single family home or an apartment building. And that inflation that you're learning about on CNBC will actually benefit you and debase your debt with prudent leverage on a property, for example, so not just consuming the news, but learning and educating yourself and acting.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 36:34

Oh, sure, well It just so happens that last night, I was talking to a friend of mine who's a real estate professional. They're all talking about, Oh, are we going to have a slight drop in interest rates? And I reminded them that there will be a part of the market if they see it, if we do have a slight drop in interest rates, we'll look at that and say, well, maybe this is a new trend. And so I'll sit back and I'll wait. I'm not going to buy now, because I think the interest rates are going to go down even further in the next six months there were, there would be some segment of the market that thinks that way. And so that's just one little thing. Another thing I would mention is that one of the basic tenets of free market economics is that voluntary trade is mutually beneficial. People buy and sell from each other, because both sides benefit. And that's very important for any business person to keep in mind as you structure business deals, because you know about business deal that is successful is basically, I will give you what you want, and you give me what I want, and we're both happy. And that's that's one of the main tenets of how the market works. Voluntary exchange is mutually beneficial. So think about how to make it mutually beneficial, and you'll succeed in making a deal.

Keith Weinhold 37:45

Well, it's been an excellent discussion on Is there any capitalism left, and how would it look like if we turned the course and created more capitalism here in the United States? It's been great having you on the show.

Dr Thomas DiLorenzo 37:58

Thank you.

Keith Weinhold 38:05

Yeah , again, Learn more @mises.org or look up books by Dr Thomas DiLorenzo. His viewpoint is that there are now merely islands of capitalism in a sea of socialism where those conditions were inverted last century. We've got to end the complex between the government and corporations that these watchdogs are basically powerless when the fox is guarding the henhouse. Dr dilorezzo says we could change the Fed charter so that they couldn't buy bonds, which should reduce inflation. So he does offer a way forward there, a solution. In capitalism, he consumer is king. This is a good thing. You yourself are empowered because you get to vote with your dollars. So therefore what you buy more of society will see and make more of but a prosperous, progressive economy that should be able to produce goods and services that are constantly cheaper because they get more and more efficient to make with innovation, but centrally planned inflation makes them more expensive, at least in dollar denominated terms. So progress should make things cheaper? Well, then everything should take fewer dollars to buy, homes, oil, bananas, grapes, but it doesn't, and it won't anytime soon, like I mentioned in the interview, there single family build times are taking even longer. That's not more efficient, and they're sure not getting cheaper. In fact, the National Association of Home Builders tells us that from permit to completion in 2015 it took 7.2 months to build a single family home. By 2019 it was up to 8.1 months and then. Last year, the time required to build a single family home from permit to completion was 10.1 months. That's not the side of an efficient economy. So basically, therefore, in the last eight, nine years, the time to build a home has gone from 7.2 months up to 10.1 months. That is a drastic increase in a short period of time. Just amazing. And we now have data after covid as well, broken down by region. The longest build time, by the way, is in New England, where it is 13.9 months to build a home from permit to completion. Gosh, such inefficiency. But despite all that stuff that you might find discouraging like that, I want to go out on a good news note here some encouraging sentiment for you, if you champion free markets, then invest in us rental property down the road, there is no centrally controlled ceiling on what you can sell your property for. Most places don't have rent control. In fact, there's been no federal rent control on private property since World War Two. And somewhat ironically, you benefit. You actually benefit from government backed loans at these low fixed rates, and now they're moderate fixed rates. You often get these through Fannie Freddie or the FHA. See you benefit from that particular government backing as a savvy borrower for rental property. And on top of this, you use the GRE inflation triple crown to flip over that not so capitalistic inflationary force. You flip it upside down and use it to your benefit, profiting fantastically from inflation. So you know how to take the situation you're given and use it to your advantage rather than your detriment. Big thanks to Dr Thomas DiLorenzo today, longtime econ professor and current Mises Institute president, more ways to build Real Estate Wealth coming up here for you on the show in future weeks, as always, with the dash of economics and wealth mindset. Until then, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

42:28

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively,

Keith Weinhold 42:56

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.
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520: How to Use Other People’s Money for Your Rental Property Loan
23 sep· Get Rich Education
Keith discusses his journey from an entitlement mentality to realizing the importance of wealth creation through real estate investing and shares the real estate shockwave that nobody is talking about.

We are also joined by Caeli Ridge, President of Ridge Lending Group, as she explains the differences between owner-occupied and investor mortgage loans.

Hear about the ease of entering real estate investing with no formal qualifications or high income required.

Learn the concept of demographic shockwaves and how the aging population will influence housing demand in the future.

How to ethically use other people's money to build wealth for yourself before you even own a property.

Learn about the key differences between owner-occupied mortgage loans and investor mortgage loans, particularly the use of rental income in qualification.

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RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

or e-mail: [email protected]

Show Notes:

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Invest with Freedom Family Investments.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Keith, welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, I'll discuss when I was an employee with a scarcity mindset, the real estate shock wave coming that no one's talking about, then, how you can ethically use other people's money to build wealth for yourself before you even own a property today, on get rich education.

00:24

Since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold rights for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, who delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast, or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 01:09

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:25

welcome to GRE from Springfield Ohio to Springfield, Missouri and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. It's great to have you back for another week, and I genuinely appreciate your listenership, and I am grateful to have such a large audience. I've got to tell you, admittedly, coming out of college and in my first couple full time jobs, I wasn't always a good employee. I guess I had somewhat of an entitlement mentality. I'm not sure where that came from. I don't know that I can blame anyone else on planning it inside me. I don't know where I got this notion. It sure wasn't from my parents, but I kind of felt like somebody owed me a job just because I have a college degree and I'm good at showing up on time, yeah, like, I'm just a good representative for your company. I mean, now I can see that no one owed me a doggone thing. In fact, I owed my employer value. An employer actually takes a big risk on you when they hire you, paying you to train you until you're productive there. I mean, the hiring process itself is even expensive. Well, though I felt like someone owed me a job just out of college, somewhat Oppositely, I never expected any sort of high income at all, and I had quite a modest income in my first couple years out of college, just like a lot of recent college grads do, until it grew into something more. But my humble geography degree, it conditioned me to think lower income. I knew that going to college in Pennsylvania for geography in what interested me, I mean, that's what I went with, what interested me not what I could make money in well, then I couldn't find a job in my geography field at all. No one would really pay me to describe Asia's mountain ranges to them. So what I ended up doing is working under engineers at a construction and engineering firm, a few of them, one engineering firm really liked me and designated me as their new marketing person. Of all things, they wanted me to call prospective clients on the phone and meet them cold in person, because they just thought somehow, when they met me, that I could win new business for the engineering firm, just I guess, based on how I communicated with other people at other engineering companies, even though I couldn't even talk the language of engineering. Well, anyway, these disciplines engineering, and really it was construction inspection that I did for a while. You know, that stuff, even the marketing stuff, it just didn't fill my soul. And you must have felt this way at your job before. If you don't feel it perpetually, you aren't aligned with your purpose on this earth, and you're spending so many of your faculties and so much of your waking conscious life at that job. Well, motivation to escape that is what got me reading about wealth mindset and real estate investing. Since anyone can do it, no degree needed, no certification, zero formal qualification. And now I think I mentioned this to you before, but it's worth bringing up here again, a turning point is when I read one life changing sentence, just one little what is it? A. Five word sentence in a rich dad book, that pivotal paradigm shifting, course correcting sentence was, being wealthy is a choice. And when I first read being wealthy is a choice, I just didn't believe it. I thought that Robert Kiyosaki, the author, was wrong. Well now I know that he was right. I had thought that being rich is unobtainable. You had to be born into it, so unless you won the lottery, you can't achieve more than middle class. Well, I was wrong about that. Now I can't really say something like, oh, well, a college professor said that rich people are bad or, you know, I don't have that story. I can't blame anyone else for growing up with a limited, scarcity mindset, really, other than myself in the context that was created around me. I mean, growing up in Pennsylvania, I just knew that the carts family and the domileskeys, they had more than us. And that's just the way it would always be. It's sort of preordained, and other families had less than us, and these family trajectories were just cast in stone as to how it had to be. But the good news is that it's not, and this is still what makes America great, the fact that it takes zero formal training, zero risk parents, and not even a high salary for you to do something like get a three and a half percent down payment loan for owner occupied FHA fourplex or 20% down for a single family rental that produces income from day one in The Southeast or Midwest, you can plant that seed that get other people's money working for you seed in just that way, even if you're interested in something as unprofitable as geography. Now, a huge reason that people disparage the wealthy is rooted in jealousy and envy, and that is not good. There's no goodness in those emotions, and that is because people don't think it's obtainable for them. It's obtainable for almost anybody. Learning that it is within your reach that completely breaks down your resentment of the rich. Yes, indeed, being wealthy is a choice. Well, people are obtaining wealth in today's real estate market. Here, Redfin reported that through the latest quarter ended real estate investors bought fully one in four of the nation's most affordable homes. That's up 3% year over year. And as Redfin puts it, it's a sign that investor activity is stabilizing, and as homeownership remains out of reach for many Americans, real estate investors are coming out of hibernation to take advantage of robust demand from renters. So investors are buying a greater proportion of affordable homes, some of them through our marketplace, GRE marketplace. Now over the long term, let's think about how US housing is going to be positioned for sustainable demand. Demography is destiny. That's a quote attributed to 19th century philosopher Auguste coon Tay, it means that the size and structure of a population will influence its future. So then all we need to do is track the age of a population over time to sharpen and give clarity to a forecast. It is axiomatic that in 10 years, a 25 year old will be 35 No kidding. Well, what's important about the age of 35 is that is the average age of today's first time homebuyer. It's between 35 and 36 All right. Well, the US is peak birth year occurred in 2007 we know that just look at demographics. Well, then add 35 to it. Add 35 years to 2007 This means that, on average, they will buy their first home in the early 2040s a lot of people are going to be forming their first household, whether it's rent or buy around the year 2040, I mean, the peak in all of American history, a lot more people will need homes. In fact, more than 13,000 Americans are turning age 35 every single day for the foreseeable future for more than a decade. This year is the first year where we've ever had over 13,000 Americans turning 35 every single day. And that is projected to continue to happen every single year through 2035 and that's as late as the Census Bureau projection that I have goes on. On that stat this baked in demographic housing demand. Hey, if we don't get serious about building more housing fast, and it's likely that we won't, this will be analogous to a demographic shock wave that hits the housing market. The population aging into homeownership is projected to exceed the population aging out, as in the death rate for a long time. This will pump housing demand, and that's not all. I've only talked domestically so far. This doesn't even account for additional demand from immigration. And immigrants tend to be younger and are renters for a long duration, or just forever. On top of immigration, the average number of people per household is falling as well. In 1960 3.3, people live per household in 1990 it was down to 2.6 by 2023 it was down to 2.5 this means that more housing is required just in order to shelter the same population. But of course, the population won't stay static. So to keep piling on with the housing demand here, the overall US population is projected to grow as well, from 342 million today to 383 million in 30 years. That's per the CBO. The demographics for senior housing are even more bullish. And of course, when I use the word bullish like this, this bullish sentiment that's from the investor side. If you're looking to buy your first home or find a place to rent, this is all more discouraging than perhaps all of our perpetual struggles to live a balanced life or lose weight. This baked into the cake. Demand is almost perfectly predictable, and it's of seismic importance to the real estate market. And yet, despite that fact, you know, more investors curiously fixate for month after month on something like the Fed's interest rate decision or the next jobs report. I mean, this is both harder to predict and way less significant than the sustainable demographic demand for rental housing that you got right there. So really, to sum up, this segment demographics reveal that housing demand should stay high for decades, long term, then you should expect higher home prices, higher occupancy rates and higher rents. And you can benefit by owning many rental properties. And our guest and I are about to discuss how you can do exactly that own many rental properties, and how to do it efficiently with less cash out of your pocket, including how you can start using other people's money before you even own a property when you're trying to qualify for a loan on a rental property, in some cases, you can Use a portion of the tenant's rent income toward your qualification income. Let's talk with this week's guest. There's one place that's created more financial freedom through real estate than any other lender in the entire nation that's time for a big welcome back to their president, Caeli Ridge.

Caeli Ridge 13:23

Keith Weinhold, my friend, thank you for having me happy to be here, sir.

Keith Weinhold 13:26

Oh, it's so good to have you here. You're a longtime friend of the show and so many of our listeners that you've helped originate investor mortgage loans. Caeli leads Ridge lending group. They're an investor centric lender. She does such a good concise job of explaining specifically what real estate investors need to know in optimizing your loan positions. In fact, on a previous episode, she once broke down every single line of a closing disclosure form for us one by one, detailing each individual closing cost and prepaid item and in there, besides being specific income property loan experts, they're really thorough and helpful that way. Well, Caeli, tell us about the key differences between owner occupied mortgage loans for buying a primary residence and investor mortgage loans for a rental property.

Caeli Ridge 14:17

The key things are that on a rental property, probably the biggest difference is going to be that for a rental property, there's additional incomes that potentially we get to use to help offset that new monthly liability, aka the mortgage payment, p, i, t i, principal, interest, tax and insurance, we have access to income potentially to help offset that. So in the debt to income ratio category, it can be a huge boon or a huge benefit, depending on what the individual's qualifications are. Additionally, in that same theme, we're not just confined to a conventional Fannie Freddie loan for investors. We have things like the DSCR debt service coverage ratio that you would not be able to apply to a primary residence, but also allows for income to help identify whether the property qualifies for financing.

Keith Weinhold 15:04

So for prospective investor borrower is wondering whether we'll have enough income to qualify for that property or not. Is it a certain percentage of the tenants rent income that is used in the investor borrowers qualification income?

Caeli Ridge 15:19

absolutely, so conventional full doc mortgages they are going to receive in the acquisition year formula, because there's two formulas that will be used in underwriting. One is called the acquisition year. The other one is called the Schedule E I'll focus on the acquisition year. This is applicable from the date that they acquire the property and until that tax year's Federal tax return is filed. I needed to find up to in a minute they get up to 75% of the gross rents minus the proposed p, i, t, I, principal, interest, tax and insurance. Now I say up to because it depends on two primary criteria that the borrower must possess in order to get the full 75% so think about it this way. There's three buckets. Okay, the first bucket gets the full 75% of whatever the gross rents are. The easy math example that I give, let's say that the gross rents are $1,000 a month. The PI ti proposed payment is 500 a month. If they're in bucket number one, and they get the full 75% of 1000 they have 750 bucks, right? And from that they're going to subtract out the $500 of mortgage payment. In that example, it would leave them with a gain positive 250 so that individual came to us with a debt to income ratio of x as a result of purchasing this investment property, their DTI is going to go down because they're $250 richer monthly. So 75% is the maximum you can use in the acquisition year. That individual in that bucket has to demonstrate two things. One, they have a primary housing expense, whether that's a mortgage or they rent, either is fine. And then second, they need to be able to demonstrate that they can they've had 12 months of history in owning investment property. So if they have both of those two things, they get the full 75 if they have one or the other, they're in bucket number two, which gives us an offset. They cannot have the full 75% they don't get the full gain, but I can offset. So going back to my example, using $1,000 of income and $500 of mortgage payment, they can't have the 250 gain, but I can give them up to 500 making that a zero, right? It's covered completely the mortgage payment. It's not increased any debt or anything in the example. So DTI would stay exactly the same as where they began, when we started. And then finally, bucket number three would mean that individuals that have neither of those two things, no primary they live rent free, no primary house expense, and they do not have 12 months demonstrated history currently, of being an investor. They get zero of the rental income, so they've got to support the full new payment within their DTI and keep it within that 50% threshold. So that was a long explanation to the question, but I think that that pretty much covers it.

Keith Weinhold 17:56

Now, That's really helpful. Okay, that can help the borrower's debt to income ratio. I guess a lot of cases is going to be helping it out by a small amount. What if, say that investors buying a new build rental property and there is no tenant, hence no rent income there yet.

Caeli Ridge 18:11

I'm so glad you asked. So on a subject property basis, that is the property in which they're purchasing at the moment in time. It's called the subject property. Those properties do not need to be tenant occupied. We can use assumptive rental income from the appraisal on a rental property that will come with some additional forms. It's called a 1007, it's just the number on the page. Those are rental income comps. The appraiser has given us an average of what those rents are going to be, and that's what we're going to use the 75% calculation on.

Keith Weinhold 18:41

Okay, that's really good to know new build or resale rental property, that's going to work the same with either one there. Now I know oftentimes that one wants to qualify. When we look at non order occupied properties, rental properties with conventional conforming loans from Fannie or Freddie, typically, one puts 20% down on those properties we've talked before. I think one can put as little as 15% down, although they would have PMI in that case, or alternatively, rather than putting 20% down, last time I checked, they could put 25% down and get a lower interest rate. So can you talk to us about the interplay of the percent down payment for rental property.

Caeli Ridge 19:21

I'll start by saying, more often than not, when you do the math the capital expenditure, or in this case, the difference between 5% down 80 versus 75% divided by the monthly payment difference, you're going to find that the leverage is going to outperform the higher 80% will outperform the lower 75% but absolutely, to your point, the payment is going to be less for two reasons. At the 75% level, the interest rate will be lower because you've got more skin in the game. The interest rate, loan level, price adjustment for 75% is going to be more attractive than it will be at 20% down. So the rate will be lower. And of course. The loan amount is lower, so both of those combined characteristics are going to create better cash flow, it's true, and a lower monthly payment. However, the math that I always want to promote, that people are doing is looking at it side by side, all you have to do, and it's actually much easier than people, I think, assume. So you figure out the capital expenditure difference. Let's just use 100 grand, okay, because his math is simple. So you've got $5,000 in additional capital that you'd be bringing to the table for the 75% option, right? Versus retaining the five grand, the payment difference is 50 bucks a month. Okay? Whatever the number is, all you're going to do is take the five grand and divide that by the payment difference, and that will give the individual the number of months it takes them to recapture that capital for the savings. Generally, my opinion, per an investment property is that if that number is in excess of 36 months, it's going to take you over 30 or three years to recapture that capital versus the savings. I'd keep my money because I can do one of a few things with it. If I chose to, I could cash flow the 50 bucks myself every month for 100 months, if that was the math. Or I could apply that five grand and use it with some other monies, perhaps, and buy another investment property, or put it in different investment asset class that would provide a return so more often than not, when they do that math, my belief is, when I do it, I'd say even 95% of the time, the higher the leverage is going to be, the better return numbers.

Keith Weinhold 21:27

We're philosophically aligned that way. We're leveraged proponents here, typically the smaller down payment, 20% is going to be better for you long term than 25% even though you'll get a somewhat lower interest rate on a rental property, putting 25% down rather than 20% when we pull back, we look at the interest rate difference between an owner occupied property and a rental property. What is the spread between the interest rate? Of course, you're going to pay higher interest rate on a rental property because it's a lot less likely that the borrower is going to walk away from their own home than they would a rental property.

Caeli Ridge 22:02

exactly and this is a great segue into those LLPAs that I always like that we spend some time talking about. So llpa, loan level, price adjustment. So for the GRE listeners, this is a more complicated concept, so I'm going to try and quickly break it down. Keith loves it when I get so wordy. So llpa is a positive or a negative number that associates with the individual characteristics of the loan transaction. So one of those characteristics, obviously, is occupancy. The loan level price adjustment for a primary residence versus an investment property is quite different, and for the reasons exactly that you described, there's a lot less risk in a primary then there will be in a rental. Because if an individual needs to choose between defaulting on where they live and an investment property, if it came down to that, obviously they're going to maintain, yeah, so they got to choose. So skin in the game, risk, etc, generally speaking. And there's all those other variables too, credit score, loan size, loan to value, property type, purchase versus refi, those are all unique llpas That will have their own unique number. But in general terms, an owner occupied where you live is typically going to price out an interest rate about one percentage point lower than you would find on an investment property, generally, if we're comparing apples to apples.

Keith Weinhold 23:15

talking about that risk difference for the lender, just like in the 20% versus 25% down. Example, there's less risk for the lender when you put 25% skin in the game. Hence the lower interest rate there too. Caeli, tell us about fitting the right mortgage type to the borrower. And of course, there are so many types. There's 30 year versus 15 year, fixed rate mortgages versus Adjustable Rate Mortgages, interest only, DSCR loans like you touched on. So tell us about getting that right fit for that individual borrower.

Caeli Ridge 23:49

This is a bit of a rabbit hole. So what I would start by saying is we do at Ridge take a lot of time on the front end and identifying not only what their needs are, their goals are, but obviously what their qualifications are, and marrying all of those things together and coming up with a roadmap that I like to call it, depending on where the individual is in their journey of real estate investing, as the tax returns may continue to be filed, and how aggressive they want to be with their deductions, maybe some cost segregation. I know I'm getting a little bit technical here, but because we maintain and have all of those products, it's very, very uncommon, or very rare, that we find an investor, potential client, that we do not have some sort of loan product to satisfy what their end game or end goal is. And you know, maybe we continue to graduate them. Let's say that they start in a DSCR because they can't qualify for Fannie Freddie today, but that is their ultimate goal. We're going to provide them with the insight and the background or the feedback that plants the seeds and gets them to that place in six months or a year, or whatever. So I hope I answered the question, depending on their individual needs and goals and qualifications, of course, really will dictate which one of those is going to be applicable.

Keith Weinhold 25:00

We've got a lot more to discuss, including, is it easier to approve w2 incomes from a day job versus 1099 from contract or gig work? And more, we're talking with the nation's foremost expert on income property. She is the president of ridge lending group, Caeli ridge. More, we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group and MLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage, you can start your pre qualification and chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com. That's ridgelendinggroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you, the national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor two, earn 8% hundreds of others are text family, 266, 866, learn more about freedom. Family investments, liquidity fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text family, 266, 866

Robert Kiyosaki 27:00

This is Rich Dad, Poor Dad Author Robert Kiyosaki, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 27:18

Welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with Ridge lending Group President Chaley ridge. These discussions are great, because debt, through leverage, builds wealth even faster than compound interest, as I've discussed, and Caeli is really the linchpin in her company, and help makes that happen with reliable income property loans and Caeli today, there are a lot more people with sharing economy income, gig economy income, or doing contract work, and they're paid with a 1099 form that shows their income for that year, versus a w2 employee wage job. So can you tell us about whether it's easier to approve those that have a w2 income and that versus the 1099

Caeli Ridge 28:03

I don't know that I would classify it as easier as harder. It's just different. So on the 1099 first and foremost, if you don't have a 24 month history of having that kind of income, you're not going to get a conventional loan. And assuming that we're going to kind of keep on that path of Fannie Freddie's. Because remember, guys, if you can't fit into those boxes. We've got 10 others that we can look to to get the financing for. But if we're in the Fannie Freddie, that's really where this is applicable, the 1099 and the w2 I mean, they're really equal in terms of the overall process. The difference would be that with 1099 you must have that 24 month history. The calculation is that we're going to take an average, it gets a little bit convoluted, like anything else that is leverage or financing related, but a 24 month average of 1099 unless we can show that that individual, let's say that they're self employed and maybe a Schedule C, and they've got their 1099 coming in through that way. If they can show five year history of having license or being self employed that way, that instead of having to use a 24 month average, we'll use a 12 month average, and that may be to their advantage. Let's say that the most recent year filed is in a bit of a decline from the prior year. Let's just use 2022 and 23 let's say 23 is a little bit lower than 22 a 24 month average is not going to be as big a number than if I were to just to be able to take the 12 month average of the most recent year. So if that individual can demonstrate they have five years of being or receiving that kind of income, then instead of being a 24 month average, I get to choose and just do the 12 month average. So that would be one thing about the 1099 that I would say otherwise, yeah, they're just different. I don't know that one is harder than the other. As long as the qualifications are there, they're there.

Keith Weinhold 29:43

When I think about this, I guess it does make sense from the lender perspective. If you're paid and shown income there on your 1099 from sharing economy work, gig economy work, or being self employed, that's more volatile work than having a day job. Um, as an employee.

Caeli Ridge 30:01

Sure, absolutely. And if you can demonstrate that you have that history and you've been able to consistently earn and have those numbers, it's okay, yeah, but without the 24 months, you're not going to get a conventional loan. You're gonna have to look at DSCR or something else.

Keith Weinhold 30:15

We're talking about what it takes to qualify for income property loans today with Ridge lending Group President Caeli Ridge, when we talk about that qualification bar that needs to be met. Caeli, you see so many loan applications in there. You have a team. You look at and deal with so many situations when you're free, you even pick up the phone, sometimes yourself, and you will talk to individual borrowers. So what do you see in there as the top reasons for not qualifying for an income property loan.

Caeli Ridge 30:42

The top reasons for not qualifying for a conventional loan probably is debt to income ratio, yeah, more often than not of the three basic criteria, which are assets, enough cash to close or reserves, credit and then DTI, I would say it's the DTI category that more often than not, is the culprit for qualifying or not. And it may be as simple as how they filed their last year's tax return and saying, Okay, before you file 2024 don't do that until you send Ridge a draft, so that we can get ahead of what you may not have known to look for last time. They could be very simple, little easy fixes. And you know, sometimes maybe it's they don't want to pay the extra taxes, which sometimes that might be required. In which case we say, okay, let's pivot over to the DSCR options. In which case, by the way, just as a quick sidebar, I'm finding that gap is starting to narrow a little bit to the point that it's a lot more affordable in terms of the investment property and what cash flow is expected than it used to be. The differences between a Fannie Freddie rate and a DSCR rate is starting to narrow a little bit. So if you have to be DSCR, I would not shy away from that just because you assume I think it's going to be more reasonable for cash flow properties.

Keith Weinhold 31:52

Yeah, I'll tell you, when I was an employee as a day job worker grinding in my eight by 10 cubicle, as it was back in the day, and I was buying income properties. Yeah, the main thing I would get held up on is that my debt to income ratio, my DTI, was too high, and my salary was pretty strong, although not fantastic, not astronomically high, but I felt like I was a guy that was pretty good, pretty prudent with my finances. And yeah, it didn't feel good to be told hey, Keith, to lower your DTI. You need to pay off your 3% automobile loan that's at a nice fixed interest rate. I didn't want to have to do that, but I was willing to do that to retire the small loan in order to qualify for the big loan.

Caeli Ridge 32:36

That makes sense. I might just offer a comment in that regard. What you may have experienced at that time could have been what we call an overlay in the industry. So, yes, like anything, right? Lenders aren't created equal. Because we're so investor friendly and focused, we are going to go by the purest form of those Fannie Freddie guidelines. It's called a seller's guide. And as an example, let's just say that Fannie Freddie gives you 75% of the subject properties, gross rents, whereas B of A or I'm just picking on B of I don't know why, but some other lender may impose an overlay. It's like layers of risk and saying, No, we're not going to give you any rental income credit whatsoever, even though the guideline says that we can do it, our overlay says, No, we can't. So depending on who you're working with, credit unions are a little notorious for that being a little bit more restrictive in their box of guideline. So it may not always be what you think. So if you've had a lender, tell you DTI wise, you don't qualify, but you feel like this is not quite right. You should double check that, because it may be an overlay.

Keith Weinhold 33:34

Everyone is interested in interest rates. It's been so interesting with what's happened the past few years, ever really, since the covid Emergency cut took place in 2020 and the volatility that we've seen in interest rates, then we saw interest rates max out in this cycle at about 8% almost a year ago. What does this declining interest rate environment mean at a mortgage loan company? And what do you see for the future of rates there?

Caeli Ridge 34:02

Well, rates have been coming down. If you guys are watching the headlines, you're seeing those sound bites. We have started to see some more refinance activity than we were seeing before, certainly additional purchases as we start to see interest rates come down, I am of the opinion that we're going to continue to see some improvement in the rate department, dependent on some of the jobs reports that we'll be getting soon, so we'll see. But My money is on that, we'll continue to see some nice tailwind in the rate department throughout the rest of the year, and who knows what's going to happen? I mean, this is our election year, etc. We'll see how the rest of it plays out.

Keith Weinhold 34:33

How does a prospective borrower get their financial house in order themselves before getting a hold of you and your team there, what are some of those checklist items that they should do themselves at home first?

Caeli Ridge 34:47

like I said a bit ago, so you've got those three primary criteria. If you're wanting to qualify for those conventional full doc loans, think about your credit Do you know what that credit score is? Now, depending on some other variables, it doesn't have to be 800 Credit scores to qualify. I mean, we've got clients as low as 650 that are able to get financing conventionally, because they've got compensating factors, similarly for assets on the investment property side, the down payment and the closing costs and the reserves, none of those things can be borrowed or gifted. And that's very different than if it was an owner occupied, gifted and borrowed funds are okay for an owner occupied, for an investment property, they have to be sourced and seasoned, meaning your own funds over the last 60 days. So think about that. What your down payment is going to be an estimate of closing costs and make sure that you have the appropriate amount of capital. And then finally, that debt to income ratio. That's a slippery or one to try and calculate that for yourselves. But if you think about your minimum payments on your credit report. That's really all that goes into it. Minimum payments, not the debt load. The minimum payments on the credit report divided by the monthly income, gross income, you should be able to come up with a number, and 50% is that threshold. So if you can kind of just take that kind of mental back of the napkin of your own, you should have a pretty good gage on whether or not you think you're going to be in this box, or if getting into the game, or continuing to be in the game, is going to require some alternative loan types.

Keith Weinhold 36:05

Inflation has been such a story for the past three or four years, but some people aren't aware that there's actually been credit score inflation. Last time I checked, the average credit score had been slowly rising in the United States. What's the highest credit score that gets one the lowest rate.

Caeli Ridge 36:22

We're staying in the Fannie Freddie department, 760 and above is all the same bucket, if the individual qualifications are identical, if this one has an 850 credit and this one has a 760 credit, exactly the same in the interest rate department.

Keith Weinhold 36:35

And then, once they've engaged with you, what about locking in their interest rate. What duration did they have prior to closing? Tell us about that timeline.

Caeli Ridge 36:45

So an interest rate can be locked on a 15 day lock, a 30 day lock, a 45 day lock, even a 60 or 90 day lock, typically it's a 30 day lock that's the average. The shorter the period of lock, the better the rate and or points that you would pay. And the longer is the adverse right? The higher the rate of the higher the points. I like to look at locking an interest rate, usually when we get the appraisal back, because an appraisal can be the piece that might delay or there may be some issues. So I generally like to see the appraisal first. We've been in such a volatile area with interest rates and what might be happening in the ups and downs, etc. I've broken that rule quite a few times over the last couple of years, I would say today, floating may be to our advantage, just because we feel like rates are on the run and that they may continue to improve. Keeping in mind, once you lock in your interest rate, it is locked. Ridge does have a policy that if interest rates were to fall five, eight of a percentage point or point 625, you would have a one time automatic float down option. It's highly unlikely, and that's why we can kind of put that in there. But if it happened, we would honor that. Otherwise, when you're locked, you're stuck with that rate. You can't expect that if an eight through a quarter point comes off of or rates come down that much, that you're going to get a different rate. The only way to do that would be to let the existing one expire for 30 days and then relock market, which is not advisable.

Keith Weinhold 37:59

Yeah, you the investor, has to think about how important a lock really is to you in this declining interest rate environment, almost everyone expects mortgage rates to fall more slowly than they rose. They spiked up so fast in 2022 Caeli, how does our audience engage with you? Get Started and go on their path to getting investment property loans.

Caeli Ridge 38:24

Three ways to reach us. Obviously, we've got our website. Please check us out there. There's a lot of good information, ridgelendinggroup.com you can email us at [email protected], and then finally, toll free is 855-747-4343 855-74RIDGE is that easy way to remember, and we'll be here on standby. Thanks, Keith.

Keith Weinhold 38:43

Ridge is the same place where I get my income property loans. It's been great having you back on the show. Thank you. Yeah, strong. Well laid out material from cheyley here, as always, let me give us a perspective on creating value by having a good loan rather than not having the debt. Remember that just four weeks ago, here on Episode 516 it was the episode about is every debt worth paying off? And the short answer is no. I got a couple questions from listeners of that episode basically asking the same thing. Well, just say that interest rates are 6% and basically they're asking, well, if I pay all cash for a property or for a car, it doesn't matter what it is, then I avoid paying 6% interest. So right there is my six points of arbitrage. Well, to that, I say, okay, but look what if you think you can achieve a 12% investment return? Borrowing at six to invested 12 is a 6% spread. That's 6% arbitrage as well. But here's the thing, you've got a big advantage of doing this with the loan rather than the paid off condition. This is because. With the loan, you still have the use of your money. You haven't given it away. You still have your money, plus the six points of arbitrage in the paid off condition. You've got six points of arbitrage and you don't have the use of the money any longer. That's the big difference, and that's the value of having a loan, as long as you can service the payments. Getting back to mortgage loans, in today's episode, there are so many loan types for property, conventional, Fannie, Freddie's, dscrs, Portfolio loans, bridge loans, rehab loans, recourse and non recourse loan types, balloon loans, arms and a lot more. Caeli and I didn't discuss their all in one loan, which is like a big, flexible HELOC that you can put on your property. It's such a good product that can help you. You can ask about their all in one loan. When it comes down to what are the factors you need to be most attentive to? They are your assets, reserves, credit, income and debt to income ratio, unless dependent on the loan type that you want. So much attention is paid to interest rates, and some attention is warranted. They surely matter. Be mindful, though, that a quarter of a percent interest rate change on a 30 year loan per 100k borrowed that is just a difference of about $15 in monthly payment, $15 if you go from, say, 6% down to five and three quarters percent, so it takes a rate drop of a full 1% for a savings of about $60 then once you have some of Your finances in order, you can go ahead and do just what I've done for my own properties. For your next income property loan, you can give them a call or start at Ridgelendinggroup.com Until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

41:58

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 42:18

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building, getricheducation.com.
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519: Threatening New Taxes You Might Need to Pay. Tom Wheelwright Explains.
16 sep· Get Rich Education
Tom Wheelwright is back by popular demand, our most recurring guest in GRE show history. He’s a CPA, an International Authority on Tax, and Best Selling Author of “Tax-Free Wealth” amongst many other titles. We focus on the potential unrealized capital gains tax, which would tax the increase in property value even before sale. Tom explains the implications of this proposal and the broader impact on tax policy.

We cover the Democrats' proposal for capital gains tax at ordinary income rates, capital gains on gifts, and capital gains when you die.

The proposal for a billionaires tax, which would tax unrealized gains at $100 million, could potentially extend to lower net worth individuals over time.

Real estate income can result in a negative tax rate, increasing cash flow after taxes.

Learn about the benefits of working with a knowledgeable tax advisor.

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GetRichEducation.com/tax

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, this week we're talking about the value of the raw land that comes along with your property, the importance of an as built survey in real estate. Then it's tax topics with pro Tom wheelwright, the specter of an unrealized capital gains tax, higher capital gains tax rates, how gambling is taxed, and how to permanently reduce your overall tax burden. Today on get rich education,

00:33

since 2014 the powerful get rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors, and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads of 188 world nations. He has a list show guests and key top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki, get rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the get rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get rich education podcast or visit get rich education.com

Corey Coates 01:18

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 01:34

Welcome to GRE from Essex County England to Essex, Massachusetts and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to get rich education before we talk taxes, let's talk about the land, the raw land, the lot that comes along with your property. Investors don't spend much time thinking about it. Yet the land is sometimes worth more than the home or structure that's on it, per the FHFA, land constitutes 32.2% of the value of the average US single family property in a metro area. Now the inexpensive land prices nationally, they are predominantly in what I'm classifying it as three US areas, the Midwest, the southeast and Appalachia well, where you have inexpensive land. Oh, that also happens to be where the cash flow for long term rentals resides. Land costs more by the water because people want water activities, water proximity and water view. So the lower costs are inland, and land also costs more by the water, because coasts and shorelines constrain development, sprawl that limits supply and a limited supply of buoys up prices. Consequently, the highest land values are mostly in the Northeast Corridor, from Boston to DC, Miami, coastal California and Honolulu. Yes, Manhattan values are flat out extortionate for raw land now, Seattle, Madison, Wisconsin and Boulder, Colorado. They are three places with really high land values as well. Seattle and Madison are on geographic isthmus. And isthmus is a narrow strip of land with water on both sides. It's interesting how Nashville's nascent population influx made its land values surge inside a cheap sea of southeastern US land values now costly land areas like these ones that I've been talking about on the coasts, they could work well for short term vacation rentals like Airbnb and VRBO, your classic waterfront and beachfront weekly rentals, but they do not work for long term rental cash flow. Texas Land values are sort of low to medium. Land near the Mississippi River and its major tributaries have low costs because rivers are efficient transportation networks, prohibitively high land costs. That's one reason, actually, why alternative building methods just really aren't as cost effective as some people think. I'm talking about things like 3d printed homes, prefabbed homes, tiny homes and shipping container homes, well, all of them have got to sit on land, just like conventionally build homes do. And there is a land cost. Talk to a tear down specialist, and they'll tell you that in some older homes, 100% of the total value is in the l and. And in practicality, it's actually even more lopsided than that. The structure can have negative value because demolition is not free. So for you to get an idea yourself, your property tax bill, it's going to show you your split. That's where you'll see the assessed values broken out for both your structure and the land. So the bottom line here is that cash flowing properties have low land values, typically 25% or less of the total property value. That's generally what you want to look for. And I swear the only thing that's more barren than raw land is the creative naming process for new developments. There is such a lack of creativity in these development names. I'm talking about names like Willow Creek Estates, stone bridge crossing, or what else do they name a new housing development? How about VISTA, view heights? They all have these idyllic sounding names that somehow just all sound like each other. Well, we're talking about raw land when you get in contract to buy a property, the seller side is expected to provide you with an as built, it often still comes in the form of an old fashioned piece of paper and as built survey, what it is is a plan view, a bird's eye or aerial view of your property. It's not a photograph, but a drawing, and it shows you the dimensions and the placement of structures on your property, and it includes things like fences and other features like easements. Now, lenders don't always require an as built before granting a loan, but it's a good idea to ask to see one before you wrap up your next deal. If you want to in your offer, you can even require that a recent as built be done by a surveying company. All right. Well, what exactly do you look for on an as built once you have one in hand, first see that the house or apartment building that you're buying is properly set back from the property lines to meet zoning requirements. If the six foot side setback is only five feet 10 inches, then you'll have to address that before you buy even if it's five feet 11 inches. Now it's possible that the jurisdiction that you're buying in will grant a letter of non conforming status, but if not, the structure is going to have to be adjusted. Another item to look for on an as built are encroachments. This is where part of a neighbor structure protrudes over the lot line and onto your property. And encroachment is really only acceptable if you're willing to grant the neighbor an easement in perpetuity for their encroachment onto your land. But why would you want to do that? The third thing that I want to mention that you should look for an as built is the existence of easements. An easement that just means that another party has a legal right to come over onto your land and use it. Yeah, and easements are actually quite common. It's not as threatening as it might sound. A common one is that as your as built would show, say, a five foot wide by 60 foot long easement. Is there that a utility company has access to. Well, that's something that makes sense. It's for the common good, but just be mindful that an easement cannot have a structure with a permanent foundation built on top of it, alright, because an electric company or a water company might have to excavate there. Most people think of easements on the raw land, but there are also aerial easements, for example, an overhead power line where the roof eaves are not allowed to intrude on that airspace. So to review what you learned so far today, the best cash flow properties typically have low land values, often about 25% or less of the tolerable property value. And an as built survey is an aerial view drawing of your property and its dimensions on an as built look to see that it meets zoning requirements like setbacks and look for encroachments and easements. It is resale properties where it's more important to look at as builts than it is for new construction properties. As we're about to bring in tax pro Tom Wheelwright shortly, business owners and real estate investors really get so many of the best tax breaks in the US Code. But you've got to know. How to find them, or else work then with a CPA that does know how to find them, that really knows how to navigate their way around the tax code, people that make high salaries pay high taxes, as much as 50% you remember I did that episode a few months ago, high salaries don't create wealth. Taxes are one big reason why, say, for example, a chiropractor makes $1.2 million a year in salary. But if that chiropractor becomes an investor by buying and selling other Chiropractic Clinics or investing in real estate, their tax rate will drop by half or more, and that's because capital gains tax rates are about half of ordinary income tax rates. So see, you don't want to be a super earner. You want to earn enough money to invest and become a super owner, but tax policy could change Tom and I will discuss that first. Then we'll talk about reducing the amount of tax that you pay. Today is a new punishing unrealized capital gains tax coming that you will have to pay. What this means is that if you have a $500,000 home, and it rises in value to $550,000 well, you would have to pay tax on your $50,000 of profit, but you haven't sold your home. So this feels so wrong, because you haven't realized any profit at all. This is what unrealized capital gains tax is. And also, where are you going to get the cash to pay the tax on your 50k of profit just because your home rose in value yet you didn't realize it? I mean, might you have to sell your home in order to get the cash to pay the tax. And then what if you though could pay the tax on your unrealized capital gain so you do pay it, but then the following year, the home goes down in value. Well, would you get a refund then? So the unrealized capital gains tax proposal is a mess. Let's learn about it and more. This week's guest is a best selling author, CPA and an international authority on tax. He's brilliant because he actually makes taxes fun, easy and understandable. He's familiar to you because he's the most recurrent guest in show history. Welcome back to GRE Tom Wheelwright.

Tom Wheelwright 12:48

thanks always good to be on your show.

Keith Weinhold 12:50

Tom probably with more than 30 show appearances here now you are 6% of GRE episodes.

Tom Wheelwright 13:00

That's a little scary. But you know, taxes are your single biggest expense, so why not?

Keith Weinhold 13:05

It's appropriate. And yeah, I guess all these appearances are certainly an endorsement of how much you help our audience. It's also a reflection of how tax and legal are not my strong suit. So it really helps to have you here absolutely the all time, assists leader in GRE history then and Tyler. An awful lot of timely tax topics going on that are probably first and foremost in more people's news feeds than they usually are. As we're here during presidential campaign season, the one that it really seems to revolve around the most is this potential tax proposal on unrealized gains. I've been around long enough where I seem to see this proposal come up more often, but it never seems to go anywhere. So first, why don't you tell us what unrealized gains are?

Tom Wheelwright 13:51

it actually goes beyond that. Interestingly enough, what the Democrats are proposing is, first of all, they're proposing capital gains rates at ordinary income rates. So they're proposing doubling the capital gains rate. That's actually as important as anything else. The second thing is, they're proposing capital gains on gifts. So if you give it, if you give your business to your child, you have a capital gains ordinary income rates. They're proposing capital gains when you die. So not only an estate tax, but also a capital gains tax. So then you get taxed twice when you die. So about 80 to 90% of your estate goes to the government when you die. If you're a business owner, as an example, then they're proposing eliminating the 1031 exchange, which would mean that on a trade of real estate, you'd have a capital gains tax at ordinary income rates. Then they're talking about this unrealized capital gains so if you do nothing but build your business or your real estate, the increase in value is subject to capital gains taxes at ordinary income rates. Now you know their proposal is, we have this tax. Tax when you're over $100 million that is not seem to be in the news feeds right now, but that's what it is. They call it the billionaires tax, and they're calling it an alternative minimum tax on billionaires. But clearly, 100 million is not a billion. That's only a 10th of a billion. And the biggest issue, of course, is if you tax unrealized gains at 100 million, soon you're going to tax them at 10 million, then it's going to be 1 million. Because history. That's the history of our tax law. The history of our tax law. Remember, in 1913 when we passed the 16th Amendment, it was passed because it was only a tax on the rich, right? It would never have passed if it was going to be a tax on the average person. And yet it passed. Because great, we're okay taxing somebody else, as long as it's not our tax. We're okay taxing somebody else. That's pretty much what's going on with this unrealized gains tax is, oh, well, it's on somebody else and they have enough money. It's no big deal. Therefore, I'm okay with that, because why shouldn't they pay more tax? That is what this is about. The challenge is, is, as we saw with the income tax, eventually it will reach the average person, or at least the average entrepreneur, real estate investor. Because think also, let's say that you build your wealth in real estate, and then when you retire, you say, Well, look, I don't want to be doing active real estate anymore. I'm going to trade my single family homes or my apartment building. I'm going to trade for a Walgreens a triple net lease, well under their proposal, that would be taxed because, again, no 1031 exchanges over $500,000 so that means that if you accumulate your wealth through business or real estate, you pay a much higher tax rate than if you accumulate your wealth by investing in Wall Street through a 401k because if you invest in Wall Street through a 401K, you only have to pay tax as you pull that out, you're not going to be paying tax on the value. Now that's assuming that they don't tax the increase in value of your 401K, which is also obviously a possibility. Interesting enough people talk a lot about the constitutionality of this. The challenge with that is that we already have taxes unrealized gains. If you're a dealer in stocks, in securities you do mark to market, that is meaning that you're going to pay tax on unrealized gains. And so there is actually precedent for this, and that's the scary thing, is that they could point to that precedent and say, Well, wait a minute, it's just an income tax, it's not a wealth tax, that's what they're going to say. They're going to say it's an income tax, not a wealth tax, because it's on appreciation, and appreciation is income. That's how they're going to go down this road. Will it start at $100 million Absolutely, that's where it will start. Will it then drift down? Who knows? But likely that's the history of our tax system. Yeah. I mean, we've talked before about the phenomenon of the camel getting its nose under the tent. However, in this case, I didn't realize there's already precedent for unrealized gains, in a sense, as potentially, if this is approved for those with $100 million net worth, and in next it's 10 million net worth, $1 million net worth and so on, like you described there, when you talk about capital gains tax rates being stepped up so that they're at ordinary income tax rates. It's actually somewhat of an interesting philosophical discussion, in a way. It sort of makes sense that a person's gains from investment could or should be taxed at the same rate as one's income when they go to their day job. However, why don't we do that by lowering income taxes rather than doubling capital gains? Wait a minute, no, because it's a double tax. Let's say that you're a business owner. Why does your business increase in value? Well, because you're making income, but you're already being taxed on that income. It's called income tax. What we do in this country, which a lot of countries don't do, by the way, is we tax it a second time. We call that a capital gains tax or a dividends tax. We tax it twice now. Now we're going to have that second tax at the same rate of the original tax. So if you think about it, you're being taxed on the same income twice because it's your income that determines your value, so you're being taxed twice. It's really not the same. It's fine if you're invested in the stock market, and that's where your capital gains are. That's a hard one to argue too much, although it does take liquidity out of the market, because the problem with capital gains tax is being taxed over 28% it's about 28% is that you actually lower the contribution to the Treasury because there will be fewer capital gains. There will be so many fewer capital gains that you actually lose money. The Tax Foundation, taxfoundation.org, I'd refer people to, has done lots of studies on this, and it's very clear. Here that high capital gains rates actually reduce the amount of money that comes to the government. So this is purely political. This has nothing to do with let's generate more revenue, one of the challenges so you have to score this, right? So that means that you're scoring what's the revenue that's going to be produced? You have two types of scoring. One is called static scoring. The other is called dynamic scoring. Static scoring means that we're going to look at the capital gains we already have, and we're just going to, if we double the rate, we're going to double the revenue. So that's assuming that we're going to have the same number and amounts of capital gains as we add at the lower rates, right? Dynamic scoring means that we're going to take into account how people behave motivationally when you double the tax rate. Yeah. Well, let me give you an example. So I'm a business owner. My wealth is in my business primarily. Do you think, really, I'm going to sell that business and take the capital gains immediately and be done with it? But if I have a high capital gains rate, I'm going to sell this over 20 years. So I'm actually going to defer my capital gains as long as I can, because I don't want to pay those high capital gains rates. So that means less money to the government. That's what it means. So it actually reduces on a dynamic scoring if you look at truly how people behave and have behaved in the past. So this isn't a new thing, right? We've had high capital gains rates before. It's not like we don't know. It's not like we haven't seen this before. It's that, for whatever reason, politically, they've decided that, wait a minute, the rich are out of favor. We need to tax the rich more. That's a very popular line, and therefore this is a way to do that, even though it by all calculations that are dynamic, it would actually reduce the amount of funds that come to the Treasury.

Keith Weinhold 22:00

That does make sense about the double taxation. Case in point, with an apartment building, if you increase its noi, you have more income than pay tax that if you increase the noi, therefore you've increased the value of the building. Consequently, the capital gains tax that you might have to pay down the road Tom, maybe current capital gains tax are higher than I thought, is the 28% capital gains tax. Number You mentioned, current or proposed. What is that?

Tom Wheelwright 22:24

Well, right now we have a 24% capital gains tax, okay, we have 20% pure capital gains tax, plus we have a 3.8% net investment income tax. Doesn't apply right now if you're a real estate professional, but applies to everybody else under the Harris proposal formally adopted Biden's plan under the Harris proposal, then you would get a actually 39.6% rate, plus 5% net investment income tax, regardless of whether you're your real estate Professional. So that is 44.6% that's the 45% the 28% number I threw out is that's the number the Tax Foundation says is the maximum you can raise it to without losing revenue.

Keith Weinhold 23:11

That puts things into perspective, as real estate investors, for a long time, we've appreciated substantial tax shelters. What are they being the 1031, tax deferred exchange, like you mentioned, that's been around for more than 100 years. Does that have any realistic shot of being shot down? Of course, Trump shot down substantial parts of the 1031 outside of strict real estate investing.

Tom Wheelwright 23:32

He did, and he actually set the precedent for eliminating it. So by doing that, because he eliminated it on everything except real property, right? I mean, actually, and even before that, there was a time, and there's still ways you can do it with paper assets. But it's not a 1031 exchange. So 1031 exchange has it evolved. It's gotten it's shrunk. It keeps shrinking. Even three or four years ago, no realistic possibility of eliminating 1031 exchange. The challenge, of course, is it would have an impact on the liquidity of the market. However, big deals never do 1031 exchange. Ever you don't see big multifamily developments sold in 1031s. The only time you see that happen is when they've used the Delaware statutory trust. And then you've got some of the investors who use it. And some of them who don't, you can do that in the Delaware statutory trust, but the regular developers, I haven't seen a 1031 done by a syndicator in years. So could they eliminate? Yeah, they could.

Keith Weinhold 24:33

yeah, that would be concerning. Are there any other presidential hopeful proposals that have to do with taxes that are germane, and our audience should know about?

Tom Wheelwright 24:41

my heavens. So the Democrats want to raise taxes by $5 trillion they want those taxes to all be on investors. And the reason I say that is because typically, people who make less than $400,000 which is their threshold, are not major investors. Most of their money goes to spending. Money. If you're making under $400,000 you can easily spend $400,000 a year. Oh, yeah, okay, that's not that hard, especially in today's world. It's a transfer from high net worth individuals who invest their money in long term projects like real estate, like energy, like business, and it's going to be a transfer to people who spend the money and they're going to spend it, my prediction is that if the Democrats get their way, we enter into a long term period of stagflation, high unemployment and high inflation. Because if you transfer $5 trillion from people who aren't spending it in the first place to be able who do spend it. You've got $5 trillion of new money going into the marketplace. Now it could depress asset values. So that could be good for investors, okay? Because you don't have as much cash available to the I'll call it the investor class, to go into real estate. If that's the case, then you have $5 trillion less, right? I mean, it's not a huge portion of the market, but it's big enough. If you take $5 trillion out of investment capital, then that would put a downward pressure on asset prices, which would include real estate.

Keith Weinhold 25:29

we're talking about potential changes to the tax code. It's always a germane discussion, because taxes are the biggest expense in your life. We're talking with Tom wheelwright. We come back, we're going to talk about the real estate tax laws as they are now, for example, how your rent income is taxed differently than your job income, and also, what are taxes like on sports, gambling. You're listening to get rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold 26:45

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Blair Singer 28:29

this is Rich Dad, sales advisor, Blair singer. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold. And above all, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 28:48

welcome back to get rich education. We're talking with tax pro Tom wheelwright. He's been talking to us about some of the proposals that presidential candidates have here in a campaign season, and whether these things become true or not. Sometimes it seems like just the fact that they're proposing. They're proposed, or if they get instituted at a small level years down the road, it can blow up into something bigger. So Tom tell us more about some of the proposals that are on the table.

Tom Wheelwright 29:12

So we talked about the democratic proposals, which also include things like a $6,000 tax credit for babies. It also includes an enhanced Child Tax Credit. Also includes some other there's lots of provisions in there, right? So it's a transfer. It's just a transfer of money from one group of people to another group of people. On the Republican side, we haven't talked about that now they want to extend the 2017 act. They've been very clear, that's what they want to do, which is an estimate $4 trillion so the other direction. So basically, you're talking about a $9 trillion swing between the two parties. We've never seen this before, ever in a presidential election. Now, that big of a difference, one major tax increase, one party proposing major. Tax increases, the other proposing major tax decreases in the same election. It's something that I'm glad people are paying attention to, because it's a little overdue in this election cycle. Because really, when you talk about policy, that's probably the biggest policy difference between the two parties.

Keith Weinhold 30:18

Now one thing we've learned over time from talking with you is these presidential wish lists, if you want to call them that. Well, these tax changes are things that require congressional approval, and we have a divided Congress currently. So what do you think the prospects are of really any of these things becoming new law?

Tom Wheelwright 30:36

First of all, remember, most of the 2017 act expires at the end of 2025 so something will have to be done next year. They don't have a choice, either that or is just expires, and then we're back to what we had. We have smaller standard deductions, we have alternative minimum tax again. We get a deduction for state income taxes, right? That comes back the one. We lose our 20% Small Business deduction, the only thing that stays permanent is the corporate income tax rate that was permanent in the original bill. So there is going to be something, you're right, if there is a divided Congress, and I say that if, because if one party sweeps, then, especially on the Democratic side, the Republicans don't seem to be as cohesive as the Democrats are on these things. And if the Democrats sweep, I would say, remember, we don't have Kyrsten Sinema, we don't have Joe Manchin from happening. And so would the Democrats sweep all these through, not all of them, but you're going to see a major tax increase for sure, on the Republican side, would you see the 2017 act extended? You'll probably see it, but you're right that otherwise, if it's a divided Congress, we're going to have something in between. We thought we would get a divided Congress in 2020 though, remember and we didn't. So I would not count on a divided Congress

Keith Weinhold 31:59

erstwhile 2017 Trump tax cuts in JOBS Act brought the highest marginal income tax bracket from 39.6% under Obama down to 37% as I remember it. Some thought Biden would take it back up to 39.6 but he hasn't and it's just stated 37 All right, so if Republicans stayed in power, presumably that 37% would go ahead and carry on. That's what we think about as our w2 income. Tom, why don't we talk about the taxes that actually exist today? I think a lot of real estate investors just don't understand the difference between how your w2 job income is taxed versus your taxes on real estate rent. Can you talk to us about that?

Tom Wheelwright 32:42

The reason it's confusing is because they're both considered ordinary income, right? The difference is, is that one is business income and one is non business income. Your wages are non business income. You don't get deductions against non business income, but you do get deductions against business income. So your rental income is considered business income for purposes of the Internal Revenue Code. What that means is you get deductions for taxes. You get deductions for interest, you get deductions for maintenance, you get deductions for depreciation. That's why, when you have your income from your rentals. Typically taxed much lower than your income from your salary, because you get no deductions against your salary like you do against the rentals.

Keith Weinhold 33:30

Maybe it would help to introduce an example here. I don't know if this will complicate things too much or not. If a real estate investor has, say, a single family rental property with $2,000 of rent, income, $1,000 mortgage, $800 in operating expenses. How is that tax that leaves them with $200 of cash flow?

Tom Wheelwright 33:50

You have $200 of cash flow, but then you probably have depreciation on top of that, which is a non cash deduction. And so let's say your depreciation is $500 that means you actually have a $300 loss that, in many cases, you can use to offset income from your w2 so you actually have a negative tax rate. In other words, you're making money from taxes. So actually, is that an increase to your cash flow? So it's a way to think of it is, I have $200 of cash flow from my tenant, if I have a $300 loss for tax purposes, let's say I'm in a 33% tax bracket. I have $100 of income from the government. So that means my cash flow is really after tax. Cash flow is $300 not $200 whereas if you have the same $200 of income from your wages. Let's say you have just the net, right? Let's start with the net. You have $200 well, you're going to be taxed. And let's say that again, your 33% tax rate, that means you're after tax, right, is going to be roughly $125,000 okay, under $30 so $130 we're. $300 so it's like twice as much. In fact, all of that difference is because of the tax law.

Keith Weinhold 35:06

Gosh, that was a great breakdown. I'm really glad that I introduced that example, $2,000 in rent, minus $1,000 for the mortgage, at $800 in operating expenses, again, leaving you with $200 in cash flow with that example. There's probably more going on here with taxes. Because, of course, with that $1,000 mortgage amount, some is going to be principal, some is going to be interest. In part of that interest can be tax deductible.

Tom Wheelwright 35:31

I'm assuming it's all interest, because if it were not, we'd have a higher taxable income. Remember, your principal payment is not deductible. So in your example, I was assuming that the $1,000 mortgage payment was all interest. If it was only $800 then you'd have $400 of income before depreciation. You don't have $100 loss, because, remember, your principal's not deductible, so therefore you have to add that back into your taxable income.

Keith Weinhold 35:58

Will you talk to us about how to apply depreciation to this income versus expenses. Example, is there anything else you can speak to when it comes to that $800 of operating expenses in this example, and those expenses include things like property insurance, property tax itself, maintenance repairs and utilities.

Tom Wheelwright 36:19

Right but also, for example, you might run your rental real estate business out of a home office in your home so you could have a home office deduction. You might have your use your car for the rental purposes, and then you get a deduction for your car. So there are additional expenses that aren't even in that $800 that you could pick up that would not otherwise you'd never get a deduction, and you're really not spending any more money. You're just using it for business, and therefore getting a business deduction. So it's really all about what do I get to deduct? Remember that if you own a home for yourself, you don't get to really deduct the taxes. You have a limit on how much you can deduct. So taxes are limited in deduction. Mortgage Interest may or may not be limited. Remember also that if you have a mortgage, you're limited to how much a $750,000 mortgage being deductible, whereas if you it's a rental property, it could be a seven and a half million dollar and mortgage, and you still get the deduction, so you're not limited like you are. On top of that, again, it's a business, so let's say that you put solar panels on your personal home, you'd get a 30% tax credit, but you'd get no depreciation deduction. If you put solar panels on your rental house, you get the same 30% tax credit, but now you also get a depreciation deduction of probably another 30 $40,000 in the first year. So there's always more deductions in a business setting than a personal setting.

Keith Weinhold 37:56

Well, real estate has been around a really long time. Often laugh when people talk about non conventional investments and put real estate investing in their real estate's about the most conventional investment that we can possibly think of. It's been around a long time. We think about a newer thing that people do with their money, but I sure don't call it investing. That's sports gambling, and it's something that you and I haven't talked about before. Here Tom in 2018 the Supreme Court opened the way for states to legalize sports gambling, and at last check, 38 states, plus DC and Puerto Rico have legalized at least some form of sports gambling. So now it's a more germane conversation for you and I to have than it was a few years ago. Can you tell us about sports gambling, taxes and how it's treated.

Tom Wheelwright 38:41

So remember, all income is taxable. So that includes gambling winnings. They are taxable. In fact, you'll get a 1099 just like you would if you rendered services, you'd get a 1099 or you have interest income, you get 1099 you get 1099 from gambling. What you actually have to show is that you actually have gambling losses. So you have to track those gambling losses to show the IRS that you got gambling losses. But your gambling losses can never be more than your gambling winnings. You never get to generate a tax loss on gambling. What that means is, is that if you win $10,000 during the year, and you can prove that you lost $8,000 during the year, you're going to be taxed on $2,000 but if you can't prove the 8000 you're going to be taxed on 10,000

Keith Weinhold 39:33

so you the gambler, have the burden of tracking this, and I guess tracking your losses. I'm not a gambler. How would one track their losses?

Tom Wheelwright 39:42

I would keep detail ledger. Personally, I probably have a separate bank account just for gambling. Gosh, I'm not a gambler either, so that's what I would do. I would have a bank account just for gambling, by the way. It's also a good way to budget your gambling so they, you know, get in trouble, right? So just set up a separate bank account. Don't put whatever money you say, I'm comfortable with this money, I'm going to gamble with this money put in that bank account, and then you have a ledger that shows the money that went in and the money you lost, the money you won, and don't do anything but gambling in that bank account.

Keith Weinhold 40:15

Hey, that separate account's a great way to hide it from your spouse, not that I'm suggesting. Not bad.

Tom Wheelwright 40:22

Interesting. You went there.

Keith Weinhold 40:23

I'm not a gambler at all. Can't even believe I was thinking that far ahead. What are the gambling tax rates like?

Tom Wheelwright 40:31

They're ordinary income tax rate. So gambling winnings are just ordinary income. They're the same as your wages. They don't have social security taxes their income, just like any other kind of income, nothing special. And this all applies to whether it's sports gambling or general gambling, like lotteries and sweepstakes? Just remember, all incomes taxable unless the government says it isn't all income, okay? And then there's some types of income that are taxed at special rates, like capital gains, but gambling has no special rates. By the way, gold also has special rate for when you sell gold, it has its own tax rate. Gambling has no special tax rate, so it's just your ordinary income rates.

Keith Weinhold 41:11

To me, it seems like it's hard to break even with gambling over time, and then when you take the tax adjusted earnings that you get from it, you know, over the long term. I just don't think Harris and Bally's Casino is really incentivized to inform gamblers on how punitive this can be with ordinary income tax rates applied to gambling winnings.

Tom Wheelwright 41:30

No, but they will send you your 10909g I guarantee that, that's for sure.

Keith Weinhold 41:34

Well, Tom has helped business owners and real estate investors permanently reduce their taxes. He does it like virtually no one else in the world does by keeping it simple, by helping you find deductions that other CPAs can't do. You can learn more about how Tom and his team can actually help you. You can get a free consultation. You can do that at getricheducation.com/tax. And Tom tell us more about the importance of a business owner or a real estate investor or anybody else really being connected with the right kind of tax professional that can permanently reduce your taxes.

Tom Wheelwright 42:12

So remember that if you want to change your tax, you have to change your facts. It's that simple. What you have to do is you need to know what facts you need to change. That's where a good tax advisor comes in. Is what facts do you need to change in order to change your tax now good news is, wrote tax through wealth. So you got an idea of what that is, but the tax law is very detailed. You must dot your i's cross your t's, so to speak, so that you make sure that you meet all of the rules, such as documentation, for example, for your business expenses. When you do that, you're going to get a better tax result, especially if your tax advisor is also preparing your tax return. Because really, your tax return is just part just how you implement your tax strategy, right? That's how you do it. So we launched, just recently, a franchise of tax advisors, and now we actually have much, really good control, quality control with our tax advisors, and they use our software system. It's very important that you have somebody, if not us, find somebody who you know you can actually give tax free wealth too, and say what cares make sure that we're doing it this way. But if the easy button is really the getricheducation.com/tax.

Keith Weinhold 43:27

Tom Wheelwright, It's been valuable as always. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show.

Tom Wheelwright 43:33

Thanks, Keith.

Keith Weinhold 43:40

Yeah, key insights from Tom as always, taxes are complicated. Tom's Network helps sort it out for you. We've already covered a lot of ground on this week's episode with raw land values as built, proposed tax plans and how to reduce your tax burden within the existing tax system. Tom and I talked, and he will be back yet again with us later this year for more tax wizardry. Now, just recently here, Kamala Harris proposed a smaller capital gains tax hike than Biden. She's starting to put sort of her own policy spin on things, breaking with the President on the size of a proposed increase on the capital gains tax rate that is a 28% top tax rate when investments are sold for those that make a million dollars plus. So that's more than the current 23.8% top rate, but less than the 39.6% rate that Biden had supported all income is taxable. Therefore it is axiomatic that the fastest way to increase your ROI is to work with a tax advisor that can find you all of the biggest deductions right away. You can read Tom's book Tax Free Wealth, get a good system of documentation going and get connected with Tom's team. At the end of an episode at times, I like to leave you with the most actionable resource on the topic that we covered. You can schedule a free call to see how Tom's team can help you out. At getricheducation.com/tax. That's getricheducation.com/tax. Until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

45:33

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 46:01

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth, building, getricheducation.com.
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518: Is Now the Best Time to Buy Real Estate?
9 sep· Get Rich Education
A prominent Florida Builder and #1 Wall Street Journal Best-Selling Author joins us to discuss the benefits of build-to-rent properties, including affordable housing and attractive mortgage rates.

He has already done all the work for investors, offering new build income properties that are sometimes rented.

We discuss the importance of median value and affordability index in choosing profitable areas for long-term real estate investments.

Learn about new build income properties with rate buydowns as low as 3.75%.

Important market dynamics and investor strategies, including the trade-offs between cash flow and equity growth.

Show Notes:

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For access to properties or free help with a

GRE Investment Coach, start here:

GREmarketplace.com

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RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, a great way to forecast the future of the real estate market is to look at the level of new building. I've got a surprise to reveal there then a focus on one of the hottest in migration states. That's popular because it promises cash flow for real estate investors today on Get Rich Education.

00:24

Since 2014 the powerful Get Rich Education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show Host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad advisors and delivers a new show every week since 2014 there's been millions of listener downloads in 188 world nations. He has a list show guest top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get Rich Education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener phone apps build wealth on the go with the Get Rich Education podcast. Sign up now for the Get Rich Education podcast, or visit getricheducation.com

Corey Coates 01:09

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:25

Welcome to GRE from Plains Georgia to White Plains New York and across 188 nations worldwide, you are listening to Get Rich Education. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, we are an educational platform. And if you haven't yet, I really suggest that you spend 100 hours learning how to invest in real estate. The average person works 2000 hours a year for 40 years. That's 80,000 hours of working for money. I implore you to spend 100 hours learning how to keep it and grow it and leverage it and create income and tax advantages from it. 80,000 hours of lifetime work, 100 hours learning real estate investing. Now, when someone like a presidential candidate produces, still vague talk about building 3 million starter homes in four years. That actually appears just about impossible. Within the existing structure. We would need 2 million housing starts per year from 2025 to 2028, in order to overcome our existing shortfall. And we haven't exceeded 1.8 million in any year in the moderate era, and that's even when demand was extraordinary and interest rates were low. Just you know, look at the reality of what home builders need to actually do, and this is even if they don't have any excessive not in my backyard. Pushback, builders have to procure land, meaning they need to lay out cash far before building, and then they need to jump through zoning and building hoops in counties and cities, in towns, in communities, and sometimes those hoops can reach preposterous levels with substantial delays. Builders need to secure financing, and for most, interest rates are still in the 9% plus range. And then builders need to acquire a whole local network of contractors and subcontractors, and then they need to keep those contractors and subcontractors busy, or else they're gonna lose those workers. So builders have to work to maintain their teams once they found them. And if that's not enough, this is all amidst a historically bad skilled labor shortage, meaning those workers can be enticed to go work for somebody else. As you know, skilled worker demand far exceeds skilled worker supply. So for builders, it takes years of planning and development. In a lot of cases, they sit on land for many years before the market conditions are right for the actual build. Well, look, at least there is finally acknowledgement among our highest elected officials that we do need to address the core problem, but our elected officials proposals aren't really so good, and our country's housing problem is largely a regulatory issue. Later today, we'll talk to a builder that's already done all of this for you, so it's not preconstruction that has new build income properties complete, available sometimes even rented already, and they help you buy down your mortgage rate to a level that's really low. You'll soon learn about it. But first, let's talk more about adding new housing supply in the larger apartment segment. It's something that can help you see the future here, but it isn't getting enough tension outside of multifamily industry circles, and that is the fact that apartment starts are plummeting to 11 year lows. And this is a real surprise to some people, multifamily completions are outpacing starts by the widest margin since 1975 and I mention this because, you know, you probably keep hearing and reading about how apartment construction is at all time highs, but really, that is a story from two years ago. It takes about two years to go from an apartment construction start to a completion. Well, today we're seeing that huge surge of apartment starts two years ago morph into completions. That's the piece to be aware of here. And to give you some idea about the new apartment building, slow down through July, we have completed 314,000 multifamily units, and we started just 193,000 units. That's all according to census stats that year to date. Start total is the nation's lowest since 2013 when we were just building our way out of the global financial crisis. Also a larger share of apartment supply. In this next cycle, it's likely to be affordable housing, because that's where the tax incentives are in the last wave of apartment construction a few years ago, it was more higher end stuff, and the result is today, apartments are oversupplied in a lot of markets, leading to falling apartment rents, or just somewhat stable and frozen apartment rents in heavily overbuilt places like Austin, Texas and a lot of others. But this slowdown in New Starts of larger apartments is why some have bullishness on the multifamily outlook for 2026 and beyond supply is the biggest headwind for apartment investors today. While it is an enormous tailwind for renters, it's good for them, but those dynamics appear likely to shift again. It took an almost perfect storm of variables to push apartment construction to 50 year highs, and it's difficult to see a scenario where construction could re-accelerate back to those peaks. Today's apartment completion levels could mark a high. It's generational. You may never see it again. So to summarize, in the world of large apartments, supply is still up, even outpacing demand in a lot of markets. It all came from a big building wave that began when interest rates were low two years ago. They're mostly upper end places. Apartment syndicators also got hit with higher rates that reset on them, and you've seen the value of some apartment buildings fall 30%. It is bad. But long term, I expect that apartments are going to be fine. New lease ups are absorbing what's out there. The demographics show that renters will continue occupying apartments. Interest rates have already fallen and they're expected to keep falling, and you don't have very many new apartment starts, it's that last piece that a lot of people aren't aware of. So that's the forecast over the next few years for five plus unit apartments. When it comes to the market dynamics for one to four unit properties. I'm going to discuss this with one of the voices of GRE marketplace today. They are a build to rent provider building new construction, single family homes, duplexes and fourplexes for tenants that they sell to investors. Hey, I'd like to welcome in a home builder and property provider serving Florida, basically statewide, known as North America's leading build to rent property developer, and he believes in what he builds and offers others, because he's been a real estate investor himself for more than two decades. Hey, Jim, welcome back onto the show.

Jim Sheils 09:45

Keith, good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Keith Weinhold 09:47

Jim, we have a lot of exciting things to talk about. What you're doing in Florida. You've really helped out a lot of our investors and followers so far. You have some really interesting things to tell us about. Rate buydowns and just how low those rate buydowns are on some new build properties. And I sure want to get to that. But first, why don't we just pull back big picture, and from the 30,000 foot national view, before we talk about Florida, what are some of the important dynamics you see in the real estate market here in late 2024

Jim Sheils 10:16

Yeah, it's been interesting. The media is always late to the party, as you know, Keith, I've seen some interesting stats. You know, affordability nationwide has gone from 480,000 about eight months ago, and now it's down to about 405, so we've already seen the affordability index come down nationwide, and it's hit really well here in Florida. One of the reasons why is there's definitely been some price adjustments on higher priced property in Maine markets, Miami, Orlando, Tampa, areas that we don't build because the numbers didn't work. So that's been really good to see that affordability also, rates are just starting to drop. But here's an interesting thing. A year ago, Keith, the average mortgage payment for the average person buying a home, was 57% of their total income. Now that has dropped to about 44% of their total income. So I'm always looking at affordability and overall median pricing, and that's been a really, really good thing for us. As I had said, second tier markets where you can get affordability, but also great amenities, great lifestyle is where we've always focused on building, and it seems like that is really continuing to have a solid pulse. I love visiting some of those bigger markets, you know, taking my kids to Disney, but I'm glad we stayed out of there, because it seemed a little more temperamental, and we're glad we're in the more second tier markets.

Keith Weinhold 11:39

You cited an affordability index there earlier. Now, affordability still, historically, is not that good, but it's not as bad as it used to be. Tell us more about that index.

Jim Sheils 11:49

Yeah, I always have looked at, you know, the affordability index. Let's just use an example, Orange County, California. I think the median value of a home there is $1.1 million. In Jacksonville it's 305, and so you get a score for based on what is the average family income per price of the home. And it's kind of like your report card. And there's certain areas that have an A, and there's certain areas that have an F. You know, we have lots of investors come to us with you guys too, from New York or Seattle or Orange County. And this is something I look at, what is the affordability index, and just know how they figure out the score on your affordability index. What's the average price of the home in that area, and what is the average family income for that area? And the correlation of those two numbers shows whether you have a good score or bad score.

Keith Weinhold 12:39

And now that we've looked at the national picture somewhat, you mentioned some of the major metro markets in Florida, some of which you specifically stay out of, and that's simply because the numbers don't work for long term rentals. They don't provide cash flow. Tell us more, just in general, about some of the areas that you've chosen and why is there profitable for long term real estate investors?

Jim Sheils 13:03

Yeah, this median value, this affordability index, is so key when we're able to get into home still, you know, Jacksonville is barely over 300,000 as the media now, we're able to cash flow right off the bat. So like Jacksonville is still as the population growth, the economic growth is occurring. It's desirable coastal community, and supply and demand is in our favor. We don't have enough housing, so that's where we focus all of those factors, not only here, but on a smaller scale, in Palm Coast, in Ocala, where we've done a ton with the GRE community. And then southwest Florida. We don't go to Southeast Florida, too expensive, too overbuilt, too high on insurance, but that Greater Fort Myers area, which did experience the highest growth anywhere in the country during the pandemic, which was interesting to watch, we're still seeing a lot of good fundamentals down there. And again, at that affordable range, it makes a big difference when you're buying at a medium priced home is, let's say 320,000 opposed to 580,000 makes a huge difference to whether it will cash flow off the bat or have a negative cash flow. And as you know, Keith, even though we're doing new construction high growth areas, we want to see app cash flow right away.

Keith Weinhold 14:13

Now, you are a builder, you are adding much needed inventory to the national housing supply, where we've had a shortage of millions of units per years, depending on what source you cite in quote there, a lot of the estimates as to the housing shortage really are all over the place. But many sources state that Florida inventory levels just statewide. Here they are back about to pre pandemic levels. So they have recovered. They are back to about 2019 levels. And I think one important thing for people to remember is, well, 2019 was a pretty good, balanced housing market.

Jim Sheils 14:50

It was a normal market. We liked 2019 you know, that was a good market. There was growth, but it was sustainable, more predictable, steady. So I'm happy to be back in 2019. You know, 2020 21 levels there were, there was less than a month's worth of inventory on the MLS that it was dire. Yeah, it was just such a skewed thing. And you've studied this for a long time. So everyone if you say, Oh well, it went from this to this. I love how you talk about 2019 because by all statistics that was a very normal market here in Florida. So we're happy to get back to that, because you have to have a certain amount of inventory level to balance the playing field. We want to see growth, but I'm more of a long term player, as you know, we don't need to see huge spikes, because that can get a little volatile.

Keith Weinhold 15:36

Now, as a builder, talk to us about builder sentiment since, like we talked about before, we are in a falling interest rate environment, mortgage rates are already down about one and a half percent from the recent highs, and the Fed hasn't even begun lowering rates yet. So talk to us more about what those lower rates do to build their sentiment. And we're not just talking about rates for buyers here, which matter, but it's the rate that builders like you that have to pay the typically factory in here too.

Jim Sheils 16:06

Yeah, it's an interesting market right now, Keith, and here's something I want to give great encouragement from as you know, we do build some for the institutions and the larger groups. The little guy, the small investor, has the guerrilla warfare advantage over them right now, because, as you know, we right now have announced financing. We're able to have this builder forward commitment where we're buying large tranches of money for residential mortgages. That means, you know, individuals like we work with all the time, Keith, that buy a few properties, we can get them this incredible financing right now, at 3.75 we're beating the market. You know, you go into a B of A and try to get a duplex finance, you're probably looking at six and three quarters. And we're able to do that because it's residential real estate. Some of our bigger guys, they would buy all of our inventory. But we can't get a institution qualified for these individual investor loans for residential real estate. They have to go to the commercial world. And as you know right now, Keith, the commercial world is screwy. People aren't lending. The rates are really high, and even these big guys have to sharpen their pencils and do their numbers and they go, Gosh, it's not panning out until rates drop. So that means these bigger groups are on the sidelines. And we all hear the complaints, all the big guys are buying all the properties they own 40% well, they're on the sidelines, and our little troopers and investors are building their portfolios in ways they cannot so it's exciting to see now for us too. What's lucky and unlucky is a lot of good builders out there that we're friends with. They can't get financing. The banks have gotten so stringent. So they might even have a good balance sheet and a good track record, but the banks are getting really stringent where Chris and I are. As you know, we were partially acquired by Sumitomo forestry about a year and a half ago. They're a 331 year old company, and when we decided to team up with them, they said, We love Florida and we love build to rent, go, and so now we have zero bank debt, and they've given us a green light to build out all of our inventory. We have five, over 5000 lots in Florida, and we don't have the bank slowdowns. So to find a good builder, you have to make sure they have financing in place, because they're going to be a great builder out there that just can't get the funding to do the job for you. So that's another thing you want to look for.

Keith Weinhold 18:16

Right. And last time I checked, you've got more than 925 current independent income property investors, many of those whom are GRE listeners. Well, we're going to talk more about just how low those rates are. Who participates in the buy down? I already know that most of it's the builder, and just part of it is you, the investor. You're listening to get residuation. We're talking about Florida, build to rent property more when we come back, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge lending group NMLS 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com That's ridgelendinggroup.com Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out, instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their. Investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too, earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family investments Liquidity Fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.

Garrett Sutton 20:28

This is Rich Dad advisor, Garret Sutton, to grow your wealth. Listen to the always valuable. Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 20:45

Welcome back to Get Rich Education we're talking about half of progress real estate investing in high growth Florida, with a renowned build to rent provider there. And I think a lot of this really comes down to trust with the fluctuating interest rate environment that we've had, some people don't trust certain builders or that investor to go ahead and put down a deposit on a vacant lot and wait 12 months or more for it to be built. But we're not talking about pre construction here.

Jim Sheils 21:16

No, no. Since we steamed up with Sumitomo, you know a lot of good builders again, they can't even start the project until they have a a buyer with a deposit down. That's the requirement for the bank to give them the money to start building. We don't have bank requirements, so we're building on our own dime, and so we are having properties completed before you even have to make an offer on them. So these are finished properties, sometimes a tenant already in place. I know just this month, there's been a few GRE people very happily stepping into pre rented homes. So you don't have to wait that period. If you're ready to move your money or have a 1031 exchange, we can fulfill those no problem, and close within 30 days Our in house financing, Keith, which I know we're about to go over, I want to make sure people know this is for not only our single families, but our duplexes and our quads as well.

Keith Weinhold 22:02

Tell us more about that in house financing that's something of great interest to people, and especially with these mortgage rate buyouts.

Jim Sheils 22:09

Yeah, everyone says, Oh, I wish I had locked into a mortgage before June of 2022 right? I mean, for every time we heard that, Keith, well, now you can and what we're able to do since we have the balance sheet we have now, with teaming up with this bigger company, banks will allow us to do what's called a builder forward commitment and buy large tranches of money. We're in the money buying business, I guess, now, and we have to commit to large amounts of money, but by doing that, we're able to pay fees upfront to buy down the mortgages. So right now, our most popular rate is 3.75. You as the buyer, and these are called discount points, which I've heard Keith talk about. You're bringing in a little under two discount points to get the 3.75 rate. And you say, Okay, well, Jim, we're bringing in a little less than two points. What are you bringing in? We're not really supposed to talk about that, but here's what I can tell you, do this test, go to one of your mortgage friends, or your B of A or Wells Fargo, and ask it what it will take for you to pay to buy down a rate for 3.75. Now, first of all, they will not allow you to do that much. We are on a more high volume schedule that will allow us to do that, but let's say, if they would, here's what the feedback we've got. If you were to try to do this on your own, Keith, you or I just walking into our bank, you would have to pay anywhere from 12 to 15 points to make this happen. Gosh, and that was the advantage of working as a collective group like we do together, you and I in our investor community, because now that we're able to do volume, it benefits us

Keith Weinhold 23:39

all. No one really knows where interest rates are going to go. I think it's pretty foolish to try to predict them, but very few people think they're ever going to drop to the levels that we saw during the depths of the pandemic, 3.75% if you get locked in there, it's pretty unlikely that the future market is going to meet that down the road at all and tell us more about that product type, the single family homes, duplexes and fourplexes that this is available on. And of course, they're all new build.

Jim Sheils 24:09

Yeah, we do a combination of new build on all of these. We found, Keith, a lot of build to rent. Companies really only focused on the single family home, but we found, you know, to increase rental yield and overall returns. There was really a lack in the market for duplexes in residential areas and quads, again, and those are close to commercial deals, without the commercial financing, they allow more affordable rent in more residential areas that people can afford and want to be in. And we found through the pandemic, these had a greater calling to them than, let's say, a large apartment complex. You know, people want to be a little more spread out, have their own yard, like in a duplex, and they get that there, but they get it at a fraction of the price that a complete single family home would be at. So we found, as you know, most of our investors, our average client, buys three to eight properties with us, and no surprise, they. Buy a mixture of single family duplex and quads. I know we agree on this. Keith, the single family home has had the best history of all of great equity appreciation, and the duplex might lag behind that a little bit, but it's got a better cash flow. So I will always do little trade offs and combo my own portfolio to make up for two of those. And that's what our counselors usually coach our people. I know yours do as well.

Keith Weinhold 25:23

Yeah, the economies of scale for the real estate investor really can be there long term with duplexes and fourplexes, and you're really helping fill a need. Some months ago, I talked about the mmm multi families, missing middle, about how so few duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes are being built today, as compared to when you had about three times as much construction in those property types that you did in the 1980s a lot of that's really gone away. You're really bringing it back. We talk about some of the areas where these are built. You know, Jim years ago? Well, really about 10 years ago, when I began this show, I was often talking about how I want to be invested in Metro statistical areas that have a population of at least 500,000 to 1 million people, in order to get a diversity of economic situations there, because you do need rent paying tenants. But so much has changed since then, starting four to five years ago, with the work from home movement, I'm more open to more outlying areas than I had been previously. So tell us about some of these areas that you choose to build in. In Florida.

Jim Sheils 26:29

yeah, you know our hub market where we started doing rehabs many, many, many years ago was Jacksonville, Florida. Yeah, and we still are headquartered here, but Jacksonville, again, is the most affordable coastal city, I believe, still on the East Coast, which brings great fundamentals. It hits both of your things, Keith, where it is larger, but it has more of a sprawl and that larger population and the fundamentals look really well again, that overall median price is still very low. And we branch down to Palm Coast, which is a little more of a higher end area, but a bedroom community, to Jacksonville, the silent soldier, the one that really surprised us the most. I think you remember, this was Ocala. In fact, when Christopher said, Do you want to go start building Ocala, and this is about a decade ago, I said, Wow, Ocala, isn't there only, like, some horses out there? Yeah, now he's a horse guy. So he laughed, and he said, Oh, sure enough, I put my foot in my mouth. But Ocala, the amount of growth that we've seen out there has been incredible. And Ocala is really well placed because it's just below Gainesville, where the, you know, there's the medical centers, the university, and it's just north of the villages, which is the second largest retirement community and growing. Not only that, it has its own economic infrastructure, but it's really well placed in the difference of a price of a home for a starter family in Ocala compared to like Northern Tampa. There is no comparison. You're talking half. So we like that. And also with rents, it's got a great lifestyle. And then southwest Florida again, Southwest Florida, Keith, we're very lucky that we took some risk there. A lot of builders would like to be building down there, but as you remember, we took some big risks in 2020 we talked to some of our friends and said, this can be really good or really bad for real estate. We went with the really good and we loaded up on, well, a lot, over $20 million worth of land at the pre jump prices. Now we're into land right down there so we can get them built right for you guys still make a margin for ourselves that other people that they're trying to get land today, they just can't do and Southwest Florida has been a really good market for us. Had that hurricane there a few years ago, and all of our new construction properties did well. In fact, of almost 300 properties that were under construction, we had four that needed insurance claims, and those four, Keith, well, we had just put up the freestanding walls. We hadn't been able to tie the roof on before the winds and the winds knocked the walls over, and that's it. But there was no flooding, and that's why you get an insurance break. And all the markets that we're in, we always hear, Oh, you can't get insurance in Florida. And I kind of giggle and say, on which properties? Because there is a very different treatment for a new construction property built 2004 or newer, compared to a property built 1957 on lower ground.

Keith Weinhold 29:02

Yeah this is such an important thing to bring up. Property insurance premiums have been hiked substantially on Florida, existing, older build properties, not the post 2004 ones like Jim is talking about here and yeah, for those that don't know, Ocala, there in Central Florida is known as an equestrian area for horses and your business partner, Chris, that's his big hobby. So yeah, when you first went there, you were with Chris. You were like, are you just trying to get there because you want to be around horses more and what? But now there's actually a good fundamental reason for this, where it makes sense to build there. Well, Jim, why don't you talk about how you've specifically helped one of our listeners, or the typical buyer there in how that process looks, including an approximate timeline to get them from the time where they submit an offer all the way through to closing.

Jim Sheils 29:52

Yeah. Well, you know, our team and your team work together. We want to make sure we set people's goals and expectations. Up front. What are you looking for? What are you trying to get into? If someone says to me, Look, I'm looking to get into a great starter home with the lowest basis and highest cash flow, I'm gonna say, Okay, let's look at Ocala. They say, Look, we're looking more long term. I'm more of an equity growth player. Yeah, I want cash flow. I'm gonna say, Okay, let's look at Palm Coast, or southwest Florida. Together with our teams and our property counselors, we try to assess what are your needs and where are you wanting to go. Now, all of our vehicles will get through there, but some a little better than others, depending on the plan you want to put together. And so once we do do that, what we like to do is go through properties that seem to match what they're most wanting. We'll go through the performance. We'll look up the site maps, we'll go through the different fundamentals of that direct area, and then, if it seems to make sense, first thing we got to do is get you pre qualified with our in house lender. All is that a go? Well, then we can make an offer, get it in. We have a whole onboarding process. You know that we've done hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of time, and now we're over. I know I laugh because we talked recently and you said, I think you're at a 925. Investors, we're over 1000 now, so we're continuing to grow. But again, we've tried to make it fluid, where our people are part of the process, but never alone. We answer the questions on the financing help get you the directionals on the insurance now, you can use whatever insurance company you want. 99% of them use the company that we recommend. We have no financial affiliation with them. But everyone asked years ago when Chris and I started this, well, who do you use for insurance? Who do you use? So we just gave them who we used, and this person usually undercuts and better coverage than most. So all those pieces Keith with going through that and again, this is about a 30 day process of getting qualified, once you pick the property, submitting the contract with your 10% deposit, doing your onboarding for Property Management and Insurance pieces. And then, obviously you don't have to come here to see us for closing. We do all of our traveling closings for you. And most important thing I like to set up with PM is, where do you want the money wired?

Keith Weinhold 31:59

That's a great question. Well, yeah, I mean, this is a great answer for so many of our listeners, those super attractive rate buy downs. And then the big thing is, is, in many cases, you're not waiting and waiting and waiting months for the build to take place. Well, Jim, before I tell our listeners how they can connect with you over there, do you have any last thoughts overall with anything that we did touch on or did not.

Jim Sheils 32:22

I want to encourage people, if they're not looking to get in the next to real estate in the next two to three years, not a big deal. But if you're looking to get in sometime over the next year, then I would really look at what's happening, things you talk about with the rates and the interest, because I do believe that institutional money within the next six months, it'll be interesting when we reconnect, Keith, that are going to start coming in and buying up more residential real estate. However, their hands are tied right now. They cannot get the financing that the smaller guy can. So whether it's with us or someone else, take advantage. Take advantage. David and Goliath, this is a great opportunity where the big guys cannot keep up with you, because they can't get the financing and insurance rates that you can so take advantage.

Keith Weinhold 33:03

Well, I specifically wanted to have you on today because it is an opportunistic time. They serve Florida with new builds. Learn more about their properties and even get some under contract. If you so wish, you can do so by contacting your GRE investment coach. If you don't have one yet, you can do so at GREmarketplace.com it is free or at GREmarketplace.com/florida. Jim, it's been great having you back on the show.

Jim Sheils 33:32

Thanks having me. Keith, good seeing you.

Keith Weinhold 33:39

Yeah, an excellent update on Florida build to rent properties. A lot of our listeners are asking about these new build properties with 3.75% mortgage interest rates, and you are not the majority participant in the rate buy down either. Next week, who I consider the foremost tax authority in the entire world will be back here with us. Tom Wheelwright is going to discuss presidential candidates, tax plans, whether you should be scared about a tax on unrealized gains and a lot more. Also on a future episode, I'm going to talk about the land that is the vacant land that comes along with your rental property, what to look out for and what to avoid. It's really a little discussed subject that we haven't talked about here before. To learn more about Florida, build to rent property with those attractive rate buydowns, start at GRE marketplace.com Until next week, every host, Keith Weinhold, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

34:45

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have. Potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 35:13

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Getricheducation.com
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517: The Future of Homebuilding with George Gilder
2 sep· Get Rich Education
Futurist, Technologist and Author of many titles including the classic “Wealth and Poverty”, George Gilder joins us to discuss supply side economics and the transformative potential of using graphene material in various industries including real estate.

We discuss economic growth measured by time prices, showing that private sector progress is faster than GDP estimates.

Learn about graphene's properties, including its strength and conductivity, and its potential to transform various industries.

Graphene is a single layer of carbon atoms that is 200 times stronger than steel, 1000 times more conductive than copper and the world’s thinnest material.

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getgilder.com

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:01

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. I'm talking about the various economic scare tactics out there, like the BRICS, the FDIC and the housing crash. What lower interest rates mean? How our nation's $35 trillion debt has gone galactic. Then today's guest is a legend. He's a technologist and futurist. It tells us about today's promise of graphene in real estate all today on get rich education. when you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content in your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 01:40

you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:56

Welcome to GRE from Dunedin, Florida to Dunedin, New Zealand and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education, where real estate investing is our major. That's what we're here for, with minors in real estate economics and wealth mindset. You know, as a consumer of this media type as you are, it's remarkable how often you've probably encountered these de facto scare tactics, like the BRICS are uniting and it will take out the dollar and it's just going to be chaos in the United States. You might know that BRICS, B, R, I, C, S is the acronym for Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa. Do you know how hard it is to get off the petro dollar and how hard it is for the BRICS, which is basically more than just those five countries, it's dozens of countries. How hard it is for them to agree on anything with things as various as their different economies, and they'll have different customs and currencies. I mean, sheesh, just for you to get yourself and three friends all to agree to meet at the same coffee shop at the same time, takes, like a Herculean effort, plus a stroke of luck, and all full of you are like minded, so I wouldn't hold your breath on the dollar hyper inflating to worthlessness, although it should slowly debase. What about the scare tactic of the FDIC is going to implode, and this could lead to bank closures and widespread societal panic. Well, the FDIC, which stands for Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, they're the body that backs all of the US bank deposits, including yours, and it's steered by their systemic resolution Advisory Committee. Well, there are $9 trillion in bank deposits, and is backed by only a few 100 billion in FDIC cash, so there aren't nearly enough dollars to back the deposits. So can you trust your money in the bank? That's a prevalence scare tactic, but my gosh, if nothing else, history has shown that the government will step in to backstop almost any crisis, especially a banking related one, where one failure can have a cascading effect and make other institutions fall. I'm not saying that this is right, but time has proven that the government does and will step in, or the common scare tactic in our core of the world that is the eminent housing price crash. And I define a crash as a loss in value of 20% or more. Do you know how difficult this would be to do anytime soon? Housing demand still outstrips supply. Today's homeowners have loads of protective equity, an all time high of about 300k so they're not walking away from their homes. Inflation has baked higher replacement costs into the real estate cake, and now mortgage rates have fallen one and a half percent from this cycle's highs, and they are poised to fall further, so a housing price crash is super unlikely, and a new scare tactic for media attention seems to be this proposal by a future presidential hopeful about a tax on unrealized gains. Now Tom wheelwright is the tax expert. He's returning to the show with us again soon here, so maybe I'll ask him about it. But a tax on unrealized gains is politically pretty unpopular. It would be a mess to impose, and a lot of others have proposed it in the past as well, and it has not gone anywhere. Plus tax changes need congressional approval, and we have a divided Congress, there's a small chance that attacks on unrealized gains could come to fruition, but it would be tough. It's probably in the category of just another media scare tactic, much like the BRICS and the shaky FDIC banking structure had a housing price crash. I like to keep you informed about these things, and at times we do have guests with a disparate opinion from mine on these things. Good to get a diversity of opinions, but it's best not to go too deep into these scare tactics that are really unlikely to happen any time soon. Well, there was a party going on 10 days ago at what all affectionately dub club fed in Jacksonhole Wyoming, I don't know what the club fed cover charge was, but fortunately, we did not have to watch Janet "Grandma" Yellen dance at Club fed and and share. Jerome Powell, yes, he finally caught a rate cut buzz. He announced that the time has come for interest rate cuts, and as usual, he didn't offer specifics. Total rager. what a party. later this month, he's going to render the long awaited decision, which now seems to be, how much will cut rates by a quarter point or a half point? Did you know that it's been four and a half years since the Fed lowered rates? Yeah, that was March of 2020, at the start of the pandemic. And then we know what happened back in 2022 and 2023 they hiked rates so much that they needed trail mix, a sleeping bag and some Mountain House freeze dried meals to go along with their steady hiking cycle. Interest rates now, though have been untouched for over a year, it's been an interesting year for the Fed and rates many erroneously thought there would be six or more rate cuts this year. And what about Maganomics? Trump recently said that if he becomes president, he should be able to weigh in on fed decisions that would depart from a long time tradition of Fed independence from executive influence. Historically, they've been separated.

Donald Trump 08:26

The Federal Reserve's a very interesting thing, and it's sort of gotten it wrong a lot. And he's tending to be a little bit later on things. He gets a little bit too early and a little bit too late. And, you know, that's very largely a it's a gut feeling. I believe it's really a gut feeling. And I used to have it out with him. I had it out with him a couple of times, very strongly. I fought him very hard. And, you know, we get along fine. We get along fine. But I feel that, I feel the president should have at least say in there. Yeah, I feel that strongly. I think that, in my case, I made a lot of money. Iwas very successful, and I think I have a better instinct than in many cases, people that would be on the Federal Reserve or the chairman.

Keith Weinhold 09:10

Those Trump remarks were just a few weeks ago, and then shortly afterward, he seemed to walk those comments back, but he did say that he would not reappoint. DJ J-pal, to the economic turntables. It's a long standing economic argument as well about whether an outside force like the Fed should set interest rates at all, which is the price of money, rather than allowing the rate to float with the free market as lenders and borrowers negotiate with each other. I mean, no one's out there setting the price of oil or refrigerators or grapes, but it is pretty remarkable that the Fed has signaled that rate cuts are eminent when inflation is still 2.9% well above their 2% target. But let's be mindful about the Fed's twofold mission, what they call their dual mandate. It is stable prices and maximum employment. Well, the Fed's concern is that second one, it's that the labor market has slowed and see the way it works is pretty simple. Lower interest rates boost employment because it's cheaper for businesses to borrow money that encourages them to expand and hire, which is exactly how lower interest rates help the labor market. That's how more people get hired, and this matters because you need a tenant that can pay the rent. So the bottom line here is to expect lower interest rates on savings accounts, HELOCs, credit cards and automobile loans. What this means to real estate investors is that lower mortgage rates are eminent, although the change should be slow. Two years ago, mortgage rates rose faster than they're going to fall. Now, one thing that lower interest rates can do is lower America's own debt. Servicing costs and America's public debt is drastic. Now, between 35 and $36 trillion in fact, to put our debt into perspective, it has gone galactic. And I mean that in an almost literal sense, because look, if you line up dollars, dollar bills, which are about six inches long, if you line those up end to end from Earth, how far do you think that they would reach? How about to the moon? Oh, no, if you line up dollars end to end, they would stretch beyond the moon. Okay, let's see how far we can follow them out through the solar system. They would breeze past Mars, which is 140 million miles away, the next planet out Jupiter. Oh, our trail of dollar bills would extend beyond that. Next up is Saturn and its ring. The dollar bills would reach beyond that. We're getting to the outer planets now, Uranus still going. Neptune, okay, Neptune is about $30 trillion bills away, and we would have to go beyond that then. So our 35 to $36 trillion of national debt would almost reach Pluto that's galactic. That's amazing. That's bad, and it probably means we have to print more dollars in order to pay back the debt, which is, of course, long term inflationary. And I don't know what's stopping us from going from $36 trillion up to say, 100 trillion, gosh. next week here on the show, we're talking about real estate investing in one of the long time best and still hottest real estate investor states, and then later on, we've got brilliant tax wizard Tom wheelwright returning, as we know here at GRE real estate pays five ways, and if you have any Spanish speaking family or friends, I've got a great way for them to consume all five video modules. It's an AI converting my voice to Spanish in these videos, we have a Spanish speaker here on staff at Get Rich Education, and she said the dub is pretty good. Well, the entire package, real estate pays five ways in Espanol is condensed into a powerful one hour total, all five videos a course, all in one wealth building hour. It's free to watch. There's no email address to enter or anything you can tell your Spanish speaking family and friends, or maybe your multilingual and your primary language is Spanish. That is it getricheducation.com/espanolricheducation.com/espanol or a shorter way to get to the same pageis getricheducation.com/espricheducation.com/esp, that's getricheducation.com/esp.richeducation.com/esp. This week's guest is one of the first people I ever heard discussing the blockchain and cryptocurrency 15 years ago, and then he was early on AI. What got my attention is his education about a promising construction material for building new real estate, though, I expect that our discussion will delve outside of real estate today as well. Let's meet the incomparable George Gilder. This week's guest is the co founder at the Discovery Institute, discovery.org original pillar of supply side economics, former speechwriter to both Presidents Reagan and Nixon. And he's the author of the classic book on economics called Wealth and Poverty. Today he's at the forefront of technological breakthroughs. He's a Harvard grad. He wears a lot of stripes. I've only mentioned a few. Hey, welcome to GRE George Gilder.

George Gilder 15:09

right there better here.

Keith Weinhold 15:11

It's so good to host you, George, in both your writings and your influences on people like President Reagan, you champion supply side economics. And I think of supply side economics as things like lower taxes, less regulation and free trade. We had someone in the Reagan administration here with us a few months ago, David Stockman. He championed a lot of those same things. But go ahead and tell us more about supply side economics and what that means and how that's put into practice.

George Gilder 15:43

Well, it really begins with human creativity in the image of your Creator, essence of supply side economics now super abundant. I mean supply side economics triumphs. We had the whole information technology revolution ignited during the Reagan years and now dominates the world economy and gives the United States seven out of the top 10 companies in market cap. 70% of global corporate market cap is American companies because of supply side economics amazing, and that's why it's distressing to see supply side economics, with its promise of super abundance and prosperity and opportunity, Give way to narrow nationalistic calculations and four tenths of war. I mean, all these Jews are at the forefront. Today, in time, we're going to see human creativity once again prevail in my books, Life After Capitalism is my latest book, my new paradigm is graphene. Graphene is a single layer of carbon atoms, two dimensional layer of carbon atoms that is 200 times stronger than steel, 1000 times more conductive than copper. It switches and the terahertz trillions of times a second, rather than the billions of times a second that our current silicon chips which and you mix it with concrete, the concrete comes 35% stronger, just parts per million of graphene mixed with concrete yields some material that's 35% stronger than ordinary concrete. You mix a parts per million of graphene with asphalt, the roads don't get potholes in the winter. It's radically Abate, but it conducts signals so accurately. If you go on YouTube, you can find a mouse and said it's spinal cord severed completely, injected with graphene, the spinal signals transmitted so accurately that the you see the mouse doing cartwheels by the end of the YouTube measure. I mean, it's material that's going to transform all industries, from real estate to medicine to surgery to electronics. Electronics been kind of the spearhead of our economy, of the transformation and electronics may be more significant than any other domain.

Keith Weinhold 18:49

Well, this is a terrific overview of all the contributions you're making to both the economic world and the technology world with what you told us about right there. And I do want to ask you some more about the graphene and the technology later. But you know, if we bring it back to the economics, it was in your classic book, Wealth and Poverty, which sold over a million copies, where you espouse a lot of the same things that you still espouse today in your more recent books, that is, capitalism begins with giving, we can often think of it that way. As a real estate investor is where we need to give tenants a clean, safe, affordable, functional property before we profit. Capitalism begins with giving.

George Gilder 19:32

Absolutely. That's a crucial debate I had with Ayn Rand The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged and I say, capitalism is subsist on altruism. I'm concerned for the interests of others, imaginative anticipation of the needs of others. It's an altruistic, generous system, and from that generosity. Stems the amazing manifestations of super abundance that which I've been writing about recently. And super abundance shows, measured by time prices, how many hours a typical worker has to spend to earn the goods and services that sustain its life. Yeah, that's where the real cost has time. Yeah, time is money. Money is time, tokenized time, and measured by time, economic growth has been 50 to just enormously faster than is estimated by any of the GDP numbers. However, measured by time government services or ordinary GDP assumes that every dollar of government spending is worth what it costs. Prices both show that progress in the private sector has been four or five times faster than is estimated by GDP well government time, price of government dominated goods, including, increasingly, healthcare and education, is way less valuable than the cost. It's value subtracted, and certainly trillions of dollars for windmills and solar panels, trillions of dollars of subsidies is a net subtraction of value in the world economy. So I am with Gale Pooley and Tupy, both who wrote a book called Superabundance that I wrote the introduction to, and William Nordhaus, the Nobel laureate from Yale, who really conceived and developed time prices and showed that economic growth is 1000s of times greater than has been estimated by ordinary economic data. This is a time of abundance. It's not a time of scarcity. It's not a time of the dismal science. It's the time of super abundance.

Keith Weinhold 22:17

Yes, 100% a lot of that is just the government getting out of the way and really let people be givers, be that go giver and lead with giving, because I have never heard of a society that's taxed its way to prosperity.

George Gilder 22:34

Yeah. Well, that's absolutely the case. And I've been talking previously about graphene, which is the great new material that has been discovered of the last a couple decades. It originated, a lot of the science originated in Jim Tour's laboratory. James Tour of Rice University, and he's had scores of companies have emerged from his laboratory, and 18 of them got started in Israel. Israel is really become a leading force in the world economy. And when Israel is in jeopardy, our economy is in jeopardy. We have 100,000 Israeli citizens working in companies in Silicon Valley, 100,000 all the leading American tech companies have outposts in Israel, and now we face what I call the Israel test, which is how you respond to people who are really superior in creativity and accomplishment and intellect, and the appropriate thing to do is emulate them and learn from them. But too many people in the world see success and they want to tear it down, or they think it was stolen from someone else, or it was part of a zero sum game where the riches of one person necessarily come at the expense of someone else, which is the opposite of the truth, the riches proliferate opportunities for others. That's how the economy grows through the creativity and the image of your Creator.

Keith Weinhold 24:25

And when you bring up Israel, they're one of many nations that's made strong contributions to society and the economy, and we think about other nations that's been an increasingly relevant conversation these past few years, a lot of that centers on immigration. I'm not an expert on how many people we should let into this country or any of those sort of policy sorts of things, but here is a real estate investing show. I often think about where and how we're going to house all these immigrants, whether they come from Central America or South America or Israel or. Anywhere else. And I know oftentimes you've touted immigrations economic benefits, so I think it's pretty easy for one to see how in the short term, immigrants could be of economic detriment, but tell us more about those long term economic benefits of immigrants coming to the United States.

George Gilder 25:17

Immigrants come to the United States and become Americans and contribute American opportunity and wealth. We won the second world war because of immigration of Jewish scientists from Europe to the United States, who led by people like John von Neumann and Oppenheimer who forged the Manhattan Project, and that's really how we won the Second World War, was by accepting brilliant immigrants who wanted to serve America. Now there is a threat today where immigrants come to the United States not to contribute to the United States, but to exploit the United States, or even destroy it, not to go givers. They are givers, and so we want immigrants who are inclined to commit to America and create opportunities for the world, but immigrants who want to tear down America and who believe that America owes them something tend to be less productive and less valuable immigrants and immigrants who really want to destroy western civilization, and the jihadists that we know about are actually a threat to America. So the immigration problem isn't simple, but when we had a system where legal immigrants could apply and enter our country and revitalize it, that was a wonderful system, but having boards of illegal immigrants just pour over the border is not an intelligent way to deal with the desire of people around the world to share an American prosperity.

Keith Weinhold 27:13

We've seen several cases in the past year or two where immigrants are given free housing. There are really great case studies about this in Massachusetts and some other places, how they're giving housing before oftentimes, our own Americans, including sometimes retired veterans, are provided with housing. This all comes down to the housing crunch and already having a low housing supply. So what are some more your thoughts about just how much of a layup or a handout should we give new immigrants?

George Gilder 27:42

Housing technology is going to be transformed by the material science revolution that is epitomized by graphene, this miracle material I was describing. I think part of the problem is real estate enterprise is over regulated, and there are too many obstacles to the building of innovative new forms of housing. In 20 years, it'll be hard to recognize many of the structures that emerge as a result of real revolution in material science that is epitomized by this graphene age that I've been describing, and that also will transform electronics as well, and part housing can become a kind of computer platform as Elon Musk is transforming the auto business by seeing Tesla is really a new form of computer platform. I believe there's going to be an Elon Musk of real estate who is going to re envisage housing as a new form of building a computer platform that makes intelligent houses of the future that will be both cheaper and more commodious for human life.

Keith Weinhold 29:12

Real estate is rather old and slow moving when we think about technology in real estate, maybe what comes to mind are smart thermostats, smart doorbells, or 3d printed homes. When we come back, we're going to learn more about graphene and what it can do in real estate in the nanocosm revolution. Our guest is George Gilder. We talked about economics. We're coming back to talk about technology. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold

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Dolf Deroos 31:19

This is the king of commercial real estate. Dolph de Roos, listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 31:32

Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're joined by an illustrious, legendary guest, George Gilder, among being other things, including a prolific writer. He's also the former speechwriter to presidents Reagan and Nixon. He's got a really illustrious and influential career. George, you've been talking about graphene, something that I don't think our audience is very familiar with, and I'm not either. Tell us about graphene promise in real estate.

George Gilder 31:59

Well, back in Manchester, England, in 2004 graphene was first discovered and formulated. It actually was submerged before then, but the Nobel Prizes were awarded to Geim and Novoselov in2010. So this is a new material that all of us know when we use a lead pencil, a lead is graphite, and graphene is a single layer of graphite. And it turns out, many people imagined if you had a single layer of graphite, it would just break up. It would not be useful.

Keith Weinhold 32:42

We're talking super thin, like an atom.

George Gilder 32:45

Yeah, it's an atom thick, but still, it turns out that it has miraculous properties, that it's 200 times stronger than steel. If you put it in a trampoline, you couldn't see the trampoline, but you could bounce on it without go following through it. It can stop bullets. It means you can have invisible and almost impalpable bulletproof vests, and you mix it with concrete, and the concrete is becomes 35% stronger, even parts per million of graphene can transform the tensile strength of concrete, greatly reduce the amount you need, and enable all sorts of new architectural shapes and capabilities. We really are in the beginning of a new technological age, and all depressionary talk you hear is really going to be eclipsed over coming decades by the emergence of whole an array of new technologies, graphene, for instance, as a perfect film on wafer of silicon carbide and enable what's called terahertz electronics, which is trillions of cycles a second like light rather than billions of cycles a second like or Nvidia or L silicon chips, and it really obviates chips, because you what it allows is what's called wafer scale integration of electronics, and today, it the semiconductor industry, and I've written 10 books on semiconductors over the years, but the semiconductor industry functions by 12 inch wafers that get inscribed with all sorts of complex patterns that are a billionth of a meter in diameter. These big wafers and then the way. First get cut up into 1000s of little pieces that each one gets encapsulated in plastic packages and by some remote Asian islands, and then get implanted on printed circuit boards that arrayed in giant data centers that now can on track to consume half the world's energy over the next 20 years, and these new and all this technology is ultimately going to be displaced by wafer scale integration on The wafer itself. You can have a whole data center on a 12 inch wafer with no chips. It's on the wafer itself. And this has been recently announced in a paper from Georgia Tech by a great scientist named Walter de Heere. And it's thrilling revolution that that render as much as Silicon Valley obsolescent and opens up just huge opportunities in in construction and real estate and architecture and medicine and virtually across the range of contemporary industry.

Keith Weinhold 36:20

You wrote a book about blockchain and how we're moving into the post Google world is what you've called it. So is this graphene technology that you're discussing with us here? Is that part of the next thing, which you're calling the nanocosm revolution?

George Gilder 36:36

The microcosm was an earlier book the quantum revolution and economics and technology. I thought I wrote years ago called microcosm.

Keith Weinhold 36:46

Okay, we're getting smaller than microcosm now in nanocosm.

36:49

that was microns, that was millionths of a meter dimensions of the transistors and devices and silicon chips, the nanocosm is a billionth of the meter. It's 1000 times smaller the features and electronics of the future, and we're moving from the microcosm into the nanocosm. New materials like graphene epitomize this transformation. You know, people think that these giant data centers all around the world, which are amazing structures, but half the energy in these data centers are devoted to removing the heat rather than fueling the computation. And I believe these data centers are represent a kind of IBM mainframe of the current era. When I was coming up, people imagined that a few 100 IBM mainframe computers, each weighing about a ton, would satisfy all the world's needs for computation, and that new artificial minds could be created with these new IBM mainframes. And it's the same thing today, only we're talking about data centers, and I believe that the coming era will allow data centers in your pocket and based on graphene electronics, and wait for scale integration, a whole new paradigm that will make the current data centers look like obsolete, old structures that need to be revitalized.

Keith Weinhold 38:37

Around 2007 Americans and much of the world, they got used to how it feels to have the power of a computer in their pocket with devices like the iPhone. How would it change one's everyday life to have effectively a data center in their pocket?

38:54

This means that we no longer would be governments of a few giant companies hearing a singular model of intelligence. That's what's currently envisaged, that Google Brain or Facebook or these giant data setters would sum up all human intelligence and in a particular definition, but there are now 8 billion human beings on earth, and each of our minds is as densely connected as the entire global internet. And while the global Internet consumes error watts, trillions of watts of power, or brains. Each of these 8 billion human minds functions on 12 to 14 watts, or it's billions of times less than these data center systems. On the internet. I believe that technology works to the extent that it expands human capabilities, not to the extent that it displaces human capabilities. The emergence of distributed databases in all our pockets, distributed knowledge and distributed creativity can revitalize the whole world economy and open new horizons that are hard to imagine today, as long as we don't, all of a sudden decide that we live in a material universe where everything is scarce and successes by one person come at the expense of somebody else, as long as that zero sum model doesn't prevail, right? Human opportunities are really unlimited. Most of economics has been based on a false model of scarcity, the only thing that's really scarce is time. Imagination and creativity are really infinite.

Keith Weinhold 41:10

Yes, well, if someone wants to learn more about graphene in the nanocosm revolution, how can you help them? What should they do?

41:18

They can read my newsletters. I have a company with four newsletters. I write the Gilder Technology Report. Much of the time I write, John Schroeder writes moonshots, which is and I have a Gilder Private Reserve that reaches out with our crowd and Israel, and a lot of those graph gene companies in Israel are part of our Private Reserve. And I do Gilders Guide posts, and those are all available getgilder.com.

Keith Weinhold 41:56

if you'd like to learn more about George and his popular newsletter called the Gilder Technology Report. You can learn more about that at get gilder.com George, it's been an enlightening conversation about economics and where society is moving next. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.

George Gilder 42:16

Thank you, Keith. I really appreciate it.

Keith Weinhold 42:24

yeah, a forward looking discussion with the great George Gilder. Forbes said graphene may be the next multi trillion dollar material. George will tell you that you want to get into graphene now, while the biggest gains are still ahead. If it interests you in at least learning more, check out his video resource. It's free. There's also an opportunity for you to be an investor. You can do all of that and more at getgilder.com again getguilder.com until next week. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. Don't Quit Your Daydream.

43:04

nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC, exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 43:32

The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. GetRichEducation.com
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516: Is Every Debt Worth Paying Off?
26 aug· Get Rich Education
In this episode Keith shares the survey results on what the highest rising cost for landlords is and what to do about it. He challenges the conventional wisdom that all debts should be paid off.

He talks about how the rising costs of homeowners insurance and property taxes are the most significant expenses for single family landlords

76% of single-family landlords plan to raise rents over the next 12 months, with 35% expecting increases over 4%.

Learn about the concept of debt as leverage and its role in wealth building. The importance of liquidity, interest rate arbitrage, and the ability to outsource debt payments.

How inflation impacts debt.

Understand the benefits of debt in real estate investment, including the ability to own more properties and create arbitrage opportunities.

Show Notes:

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:00

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold. The economy is affecting real estate in some interesting ways. Now, vital trends revealed from a survey of single family landlords. Then the heart of today's show is every debt that you have worth paying off. The answer is no, with some surprising reasons all today on Get Rich Education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies, disclaimers. Oh, had no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself, it's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple. Text, GRE 66866 and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called The Don't quit your Daydream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 01:34

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:51

Welcome to GRE you are listening to the voice of real estate investing since 2014 I'm your host, Keith Weinhold back to help you build your wealth for another week. This is Get Rich Education. That's just one of many things that makes this show different from other shows, or just consuming news stories. Here, you stay updated on important real estate investing trends, but you learn specific strategies to actionably build your wealth. That's the difference, and it's with the most generationally proven medium of real estate, all without you having to be a flipper and often not a landlord either. Now, presidential candidates make lots of promises during their campaigns, that includes with real estate here recently, even if you're listening 10 years from now, I'll tell you how to put something like this into perspective. Kamala Harris unveiled her plan to spur the construction of 3 million more housing units. That's a good thing. America needs more housing. She also wants to give federal assistance, and by the way, that means your money. She wants to give federal assistance in the form of a $25,000 down payment help for first time home buyers. I see that as a bad thing, and see there's no partisan bias here at GRE a lot of media outlets, they will filter something like this is all good or all bad, because they get better ratings when they rile people up, and that results in a divided America. But the problem is that the 25k of down payment help that can be delivered faster than new homes can be built, and that risks pushing up home prices faster, sooner, which arose the very affordability that's trying to be helped here now a presidential candidate, be it Kamala Harris or anyone when they have this enthusiasm to also limit price gouging at grocery stores here, like this candidate does. I mean, that's the beginning of price controls, and when there are price controls, no farmer is going to want to produce cherry tomatoes or Fisher is going to want to produce wild caught salmon if they have a significant price ceiling limiting the supply of those things. Therefore, I mean, when we had price controls in the high inflation 70s, that created shortages. And it's important to keep in mind that presidential campaign promises, they often don't become policies that are enacted even if that person is elected president, and even if they are, much of this still requires congressional approval, and we still have a divided Congress, and any tax changes require the approval of Congress. So really, this stuff is just a presidential wish list, giving you some perspective here. Now on the topic of shortages, there still is not enough available supply of US homes, active listings, those seeking a starter home often get more worn out than your grandpa after two games of checkers. But inventory levels are not as bad as they used to be, we still got a ways to go to claw back close to a more normal, balanced pre pandemic housing supply level nationally, we are still 29% lower. There are now still 29% fewer active listings than there were in pre pandemic times and most individual states still have inventory levels lower than that, too, compared to five years ago, when we break it down by state, some have a more paltry supply than others, though, places with the scarcest inventory, they seem To be those states where maple syrup gets produced, as it turns out, and I sure hope that this doesn't mean people need to sleep in the sugar shack. Connecticut is down 75% that means they have 75% less inventory than five years ago, pre pandemic, Illinois down 66%, New Jersey down 57%, Virginia down 53%, Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and Michigan all with 51% less inventory than they had pre pandemic. Ohio down 43%, California and Missouri each down 31%. The main problem here is that the Northeast and Midwest have not had enough home building in order to keep up with housing demand. I guess what? There were too many snow days in the Northeast and Midwest, or were builders constantly distracted by potholes and cicadas? Conversely, there are three popular investor states where for sale inventory is just a tad higher now than it was five years ago. Texas is up 6%, Florida up 5%, Tennessee up 2% and this doesn't mean that these states are oversupplied with housing, it just means that they have a touch more than they did in 2019 so they're closer to balance. The important overall thing to remember here is, of course, that nationally, buyers still outnumber sellers. So between the lower mortgage rates that we've had in the past year and the low supply, this keeps the environment ripe. There will be more offers and more potential for home prices to increase faster than its current rate of 4.1%. That 4.1% year over year, as per the NAR, it's important for you to understand that there's virtually no way that prices can revert to their pre pandemic levels. Home prices are not going back to where they used to be five years ago. In fact, there is more pressure on them to rise from here not fall, and there are a few reasons why prices cannot go back to where they were. The rate of inflation has slowed. You've seen the price of lumber come down, but wider inflation has been indelibly baked into the pricing cake. Homes now have higher, permanently embedded costs of labor, materials and land that all have more stick-to-itiveness to them than Simone Biles on the balance beam. Prices are not coming down anytime in the near future. You might remember that right here on this show in in our newsletter, back in late December, eight months ago, I forecast that national home prices would rise 4% this year, and I still really like how that looks. I'll get back to the investment side here shortly, but real quick, in light of the new rules about how real estate agents are compensated if you're about to buy a primary residence, you may not have any experience negotiating with a broker. In last week's newsletter, I sent you a template you can use and that can help you simplify the process as a buyer and help you avoid being taken advantage of. I sent you that template last Thursday. Back here on the real estate investor side, after a high tide of inflation, you know, you and I, we have all surely enjoyed the splash of both higher property prices and rents. That looks to continue. But what about your higher property expenses, too? Let's talk about what you've got to do to avoid getting crunched by expenses. A survey of single family landlords was recently conducted by lending one in resi club, and they asked this question, what is your expense that increased the most the past 12 months? The number one answer is fast rising insurance premiums, with half of respondents citing that as their biggest expense increase item. And that's hardly a new development, not surprising. The next biggest expense was property tax, 27% of respondents cited that. That's mostly a reflection of higher property values and their consequent tax assessments. 235 single family landlords completed this survey, by the way. So they were the proportion of landlords that answered about what was their fastest increasing expense. Half of them said insurance, easily the most well, the rate of increase in homeowners insurance costs was roughly 10 to 12% nationally last year. That's according to the Insurance Information Institute, and the top two reasons for this are more severe storms and higher replacement costs. The good news is that further rate increases are cooling off, though, all right, but still, what are you to do as a rental property owner that's stuck with a higher property insurance bill? I've got a great answer for you, and it's so incredibly simple. You pass the expense along to your tenant with a rent increase, and then others can deal with what happens downstream from there. And I'll tell you how to go about doing this shortly, which is also so incredibly simple. But if you're reluctant to pass along the increased insurance expense to your tenant, understand that you and your tenant are just like two ports along a river. As this wave of inflation flows along, it flows from the reinsurer to the insurer, to you, the property owner, to the increased rent, to the hike in the tenant wage, to the employer, and then the employer hikes prices on the consumer. That's how the river flows. No watered down returns for you. Now, of course, this River's headwaters are sourced with the government, because that's where inflation comes from. Inflation means an expansion of the money supply. You and your tenant are really two ports along the river. Don't let the expense water dam up and flood you, and the written reason that you give your tenant for the rent increase is drum roll here, higher insurance costs. Yeah, that's it. It's super simple. There's no need to be inventive here. Honesty is therefore the best river raft. Hey, come on now this remorseless geography degree holder has got to let loose with something like river references from time to time. So that's the greatest expense increase item, what to do about it and how you should go about doing it. Now this same survey of single family landlords, they showed that 76% expect to reach high watermarks and raise the rent over the next 12 months, including 35% of landlords who say the rent increase will be over 4% and planned rent increases of one to 7% are most common. That's the planned rent increase range one to 7%. Look, you didn't get into real estate to subsidize others living expenses. There is nothing unethical about adjusting to market level rent. Rent hikes are like a lock lifting your ship through the Panama Canal. All right, so what do we make of this. I mean, gaging, overall investor sentiment is we head later into the 2020s, decade. What is the landlord temperature? As I see it, expenses are up. Higher. Rents follow. And last quarter, home values increased in almost 90% of us, Metro markets, yes, property values are up in 89% of Metro markets. But how do single family landlords in this same survey feel? Well, 60% of them say they will buy at least one investment property over the next 12 months. So most single family landlords they want to buy more. And when that's broken down by region, the most single family real estate investor optimism is in the Midwest, Northeast and South. And really single family landlords are optimistic in every region except the West. And this makes sense. Cash Flows are less lucrative in the West because prices have long outpaced rents there, the survey really shows that most aren't wildly bullish or excessively bearish on the real estate market. They expect it to stay balanced. Many plan to buy properties raise rents, and the survey shows that they, too, expect a 4% home price appreciation rate. That's what it showed, and they anticipate falling interest rates. Now, personally, I often disagree with what the masses think. I mean, contrarians to the mainstream, they are often the profiteers. But in this case, I guess I'm more agreeable with the survey respondents than a perfectly brewed cup of coffee in the morning. And well, maybe that's because single family landlords, the very people that were surveyed are not mainstream. The housing market is actually pretty normal in most every significant way, except, of course, the ongoing lack of housing inventory and affordability challenges for first time homebuyers. And if you're a newer GRE listener, even normal times can be thrilling for a real estate investor when you achieve a 40% plus total rate of return from how real estate pays you five ways. Yes, if you're new here, I know that sounds like an unachievable return, but 40% plus is actually realistic without high risk when you understand your five simultaneous profit sources with income producing property. In fact, when someone asks why you invest in real estate, you can just hold up five fingers. The broader economy shows a lot of signs of normalcy as well, GDP, growth, consumer spending, unemployment, the inflation rate, but the sad exception here is this widening gap between the wealthy and the poor, so I guess that more people charter yachts and yet others increasingly pour mountain dew on their fruit loops in the morning for breakfast. Now, complete uncertainty never disappears, but after disruptions from covid, high inflation and new wars, a lot of people see calmer times ahead. Elections matter, but some people seem more concerned about who the next President will be than the parent of a Sephora obsessed teen. Presidential elections aren't known to rock the real estate market, and actually, history shows that the more sensitive stock market is only temporarily affected by an election. Sometimes I just ponder and quietly think to myself, hmm, when the liquid death drink brand thrives from Hawking wildly overpriced water in a can, I posit just how bad can the economy really be? The bottom line is that most single family investors are meeting higher insurance expenses with rent increases and they want to buy more income property over the next 12 months.

Hey, if you like this show here, and you get value from it every week, I love it when you just simply tell a friend about the show, it's as easy as having them download our dedicated Get Rich Education mobile app for both iOS and Android. If you think you have any friends that would benefit from the vital episode here, I'd be grateful if you shared the show with them, use the Share button on your podcaster, or even take a screenshot and post it to your social. Straight ahead is any debt worth paying off? I'm Keith Weinhold. You're listening to Get Rich Education.

Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine, at Ridge Lending Group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation, because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Caeli Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridgelendinggroup.com that's Ridgelendinggroup.com.

Keith Weinhold 19:47

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Dani-Lynn Robison 20:49

This is Freedom Family Investments Co-founder, Dani-Lynn Robison, listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and Don't Quit Your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 20:57

Welcome back to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, you're listening to Episode 516 is every debt that you have worth paying off? The short answer is no. I have held millions of dollars in debt from a young age, and I just keep holding on to more and more. Look what happens to your net worth when you pay down one of your debts, absolutely nothing happens to your net worth. It stays the same. All right. Say that the total value of all of your assets gives you a sum of one and a half million dollars. That's the combined value of any of your real estate, cars, retirement accounts, gold, Bitcoin, all of it, anything of value one and a half million and totaling up all of your debts equals just a half million. That's your mortgages, automobile debt, credit card debt, everything. All right, so you've got one and a half million in assets and 500k in debt. So you've got a million dollar net worth, okay, well, next, say that you decide to pay down 100k of your debt. All right. Well, what's the result? You've got only $1.4 million in assets and just 400k in debt. Well, the result is that your net worth is still a million bucks. You've now got fewer assets and less debt, so you just broke even. But it could be worse than just a break even, because what if, one month after you made this debt pay down. You now need that 100k back for living expenses, but you can no longer get it returned to you because you lost your job, so no one will qualify you for a loan again, or you still have your job. But lending standards have tightened and changed now your 100k is on the other side of a wall that you can't access. So debt pay down isn't just a question of net worth, it's liquidity. And there are some more layers here that we're going to get into paying down mortgage debt. It also builds home equity. Well, that is usually a bad thing, because, as I'm known for saying, home equity is unsafe, illiquid, and its rate of return is always zero. Do you know the crowd that sometimes forgets this and really gets penalized? It is seniors, retirees. All right, what happens when a person is older and they've had a paid off home for a while. People get a reverse mortgage. They need funds for living expenses. Well, reverse mortgages, they have high fees, and also you can't get nearly all of your equity out. You'll often only get up to 60 to 65% loan to value, meaning that 35 to 40% of that hard earned equity that you worked decades for. First it became trapped with no return, and now it's essentially gone. Poof. For all those years, your home is paid off, even if it began as early as your 30s, like it does for some people all that time your equity wasn't earning any rate of return. And the earlier in life you learned that the ROI from home equity is always zero, the better. You didn't see any bill for this loss. You just never saw the gain that you should have had. And that's part of the reason why this myth that home equity is such a great thing perpetuates and carries on for generations. All right, well, we are just getting warmed up here at a key financial question in your life. That question is, is every debt that you have worth paying off?

24:58

Did you know millions of Americans live with debt they cannot control. That's why I developed this unique new program for managing your debt. It's called Don't buy stuff you cannot afford. Let me see that. If you don't have any money, you should not buy anything. hmm sounds interesting, sounds confusing.

Keith Weinhold 25:24

Well, there's a little something to be said for that. But what about interest rate? If that 100k that you paid down was for credit card debt? All right? Well, that was probably a good thing. 44% of American credit card holders carry debt month to month. Now I'm going to guess for you the GRE listener, it's even less likely than that that you carry debt month per month, where you would be subject to credit card finance charges. The average credit card interest rate in America is about 25% today, and it is unsecured debt, meaning that it's a debt type that's not backed by collateral. Now, yes, you can beat a 25% return if you're leveraged in real estate, but your liquid cash flow drain is drastic on credit cards. The other problem with credit cards is that you have to pay your own debt. Later, I'll talk about when others pay your debt for you. And if you have decided that you have some debts worth paying down because its interest rate is too high for goodness sake, pay the one with the highest interest rate first. I know there's a school of thought that says, pay the debt with the lowest balance. First, that is nonsense. Now, sometimes, if you know specifically what you're doing with credit cards, you can play some little games with them. I mean, personally, after I finished college, I kept transferring credit card balances with 0% APR, Intro offers, introductory offers that were for a limited time at 0% and then I kept track of that so that intro rate didn't expire. But this isn't any sort of long term wealth building strategy. Higher balance transfer fees have made that strategy less lucrative. Now too, banks have tightened that up. When it comes to interest rates, it's about that arbitrage. Ask yourself really two questions when it comes to arbitrage, which is just a fancy sounding way of making a profit or a spread. First, you need to ask yourself, how good of an investor Are you? What percent return can you reliably earn from your investments? Say you think it's 15% then if you're plus 15 but the interest rate on your debt is 8, well, then you've got 7 points of arbitrage or profit. So keep the 8% debt. And then secondly on arbitrage plays. Ask yourself, can I afford the cash flow if I keep this debt around? Because if you're 15% return, just say that it's all tied up in the appreciation of a property. Well, that's not very liquid, so you're going to need to have the free cash to make the payments on your 8% interest rate loan. Let's talk about other times not to pay down the debt. Say you're trying to build up an emergency fund of at least three months, or you want to contribute to your employer match in your company's retirement plan, you may very well want to fund those things before you pay down debt too. Now some say, hey, you know something. Just forget about all these numbers like rates of return and interest rates. You know, debt just makes me feel anxiety and feel stress and sleeplessness. There is emotion here, so let me just get it paid off. Or I'm afraid that if I've got some money and I don't pay off my debt, that I'll just lose all of the money to sports gambling, and to that, I say, come on, be an adult. Set some boundaries. Dog ears, some cash for entertainment, and have a firm line. Learn how to use that to your advantage. Debt is like fire. It can burn you if you don't know how to use it, and it can heat your home if you do know how to use it. And if debt gives you sleeplessness. Here, this will help you sleep your debts, principal balance is being debased for you as you sleep, every single one of your debts is being eroded by inflation. Right now, as you listen to me, your principal balance is quietly, debasing and passively, eroding with your say 500k of total debt. We have 10% inflation over a couple years. Well, that erodes its weight down to 450k all without you having to get involved and make any pay downs at all. As wages go higher, and so do prices and rents and salaries, as they all spiral higher, it gets easier to pay back those principal balances. And debt is the most powerful wealth building force that I know of, because debt is leverage. Compound interest is weak. Leverage is powerful. Debt allows you to own and control five times as many properties as you could if they were all paid off. And if you don't understand this, or if your jaw hit the floor, what I just said a minute ago, that compound interest is weak. I just discussed this for you in clear detail nine weeks ago, on Get Rich Education podcast episode 507. So go and check that out. One attribute of real estate debt is that as you get properties where the rent income meets or exceeds the expenses, congratulations, you have reliably outsourced all of your debt payments to tenants. See, most of my debt, personally, virtually all of it, it isn't really going to be paid back by me. It's my tenants, and that is another reason to keep debt in place and only make the minimum payment. Let's talk about another reason to pay down your debt when a payoff or pay down actually does make sense, even if it's at a low interest rate, it's when an outside force kind of makes you pay down your debt. And here's what I'm talking about. Say you're trying to buy a property, whether that's a primary residence or rental, and that you've got say, Oh, just $11,000 left to pay on your car loan at a 5% interest rate, even though you can't outsource the payments. That's a pretty nice low 5% interest rate, you're confident that you can beat that and earn more elsewhere, so you'd rather enjoy the positive arbitrage instead of paying that off. And I'd feel the same way. But here's the twist, your mortgage loan officer says you've got to pay the $11,000 down to zero because your debt to income ratio is too high. So if you want the mortgage, the big loan amount, you've got to pay off the car loan, the little loan amount. Well, that's a case when it makes sense to pay off that automobile loan debt then, and also, when it comes to your credit score, you might need to improve it to qualify for another loan so you can get a low interest rate and 30% of your FICO score is made up of your amounts owed. I'm answering a vital question for you today, and that is, is every one of your debts worth paying off? I'm sharing information, perspective and experience with you here, and this experience was built, just like all experiences, and I didn't always have the experience, of course. Now my parents and I split my college loan costs, 5050, I still had student loan debts for a few years after graduating, and you know, I can't remember what my student loan interest rates were maybe 6% blended because I had a few different student loans, some of which I did transfer onto those 0% intro, APR credit cards, by the way. But after my student loans were paid off, and I started investing in real estate and understanding terms like leverage and arbitrage, you know, I started to wonder if it would be desirable to have those student loans back rather than paying them off so fast I could have owned another property or two sooner, and I'll never know the opportunity cost of not benefiting from the returns on owning more Property sooner. And of course, student loan debt is one of the few debt types that cannot be written off in bankruptcy that tilts back a little toward paying them off sooner than later. What you just heard me talk about here for the last 15 or so minutes is a message that hundreds of millions of people need to hear it's that not every debt is worth paying off or even paying down. So to help give you a summary answer to our question, is every debt worth paying off? The answer is no, and the key considerations are liquidity, interest rate arbitrage inyour ability to outsource the debt. Debt is good when it helps you buy a cash flowing asset or create arbitrage. Debt is probably even good when it helps you buy a home for your family and have a sense of permanency and a mantle to place baseballs and hang Christmas stockings from and build memories. And now this is all because every single one of us either uses debt or we forego the opportunity to use debt. Well, when we forego using debt, we are now subject to a resultant opportunity cost, and this is why a central and enduring mantra here at GRE is that financially free beats debt free. Financially free means that you have enough residual income streams to meet all of your expenses and live just how you want to live. Debt Free means that you don't owe anyone anything, but if you put debt free before financially free, you are going to grind and live below your means and eat dirt and miss opportunities for decades.

And speaking of leveraging your way to financial freedom with assets, the way that we actionably help you here is by recommending income producing providers and properties for you. And you probably noticed over time that GRE marketplace properties here are less expensive than elsewhere. And you might wonder why exactly is this? Well, there's a few reasons. Investor advantage markets have low prices. Also, there is no agent you get to buy directly. Thirdly, providers provide homes in bulk, keeping your costs down. And then finally, there are no owner occupied emotions involved here with buying and owning rental properties, so you don't have sellers that are making unreasonable requests. So this helps answer why GRE marketplace properties are often good deals. Now it seems like states with the best cash flow in real estate are the same ones where people are more likely to wear bib overalls. That's just how it is. In fact. Hey, case in point, I just learned about some brand new, new build single family rentals in southwest Missouri at GRE marketplace. They're available for you to own regardless of where you live. They make ideal rentals, and they come with free property management for the first year. And because they're freshly built. Expect the likelihood of a quality tenant, light maintenance and low repair costs for years. Let me just quickly mention two of them to give you a feel. The first one is in Carthage, Missouri. The single family rental is three bed, two bath. Rent 1550 the price is 206k it's 1200 square feet, built this year. You get a $1,200 rent credit with it. So it's going to take a 51k down payment, and it produces cash flow. The second one is in Carl Junction, Missouri, four bed two bath in this single family rental. The rents $1,875 the price $250,500 1683 square feet built this year. 62k down and produces cash flow. And like I said, both come with free property management for the first year, and we can help set up an entire real estate investment plan for you, whether it's with these properties or others in multiple states, where we help you make it easy on yourself and contact a GRE investment coach. It is truly free always. There aren't going to be any hidden coaching bills that pop up in the mail. We don't have some paid coaching program. We're trying to upsell you. We don't have anything to sell, and our coaches are like advisors, consultants, super connectors and like silent partners on your deals, and they get zero equity in the deal. And our coaches don't wear Bib Overalls either. So they keep it really relatable for you, make it actionable and make a real difference in your life, start at gremarketplace.com. That's where you can contact a GRE investment coach, and we'll see how we can help you out from gremarketplace.com just click on the free investment coaching button. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold, and I'll be back to help you build your wealth, Don't Quit Your Daydream.

39:46

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Keith Weinhold 40:06

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515: Unpacking the Myths: How Rent Control Affects Housing Quality and Availability
19 aug· Get Rich Education
Independent documentary filmmaker and policy analyst at Reason Foundation, Jen Sidorova, joins us to discuss how rent control impacts tenants, landlords and the housing market. Her latest short film project, “Shabbification: The Story of Rent Control”, reflects how rent control has a direct effect on housing quality.

Almost half of rentals in NYC are rent-stabilized.

We highlight the challenges faced by small property owners and the potential consequences of these regulations on the housing market.
Bathtub in your kitchen, anyone? Yes, you read that correctly. In some cases maintenance has been deferred for so long that units have not been updated to code.

Learn about the history of rent control and stabilization laws in New York.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/515

You can follow Jen on Instagram @jen_sidorova or check out her writing at reason.org

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 0:01

Welcome to GRE. I discuss the effect that now lower mortgage rates can have how to get a strong return with private lending. Then, for this week's guest, she is a public policy expert with reason.com maker of a new film called Shabbification that spotlights the perils and even horrors of rent control in New York City, and she's a young Russian immigrant that lives in one unit of a Buffalo fourPlex and rents out the other three today on Get Rich Education.

When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Oh, at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't quit your Daydream letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 1:40

you're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 1:56

Welcome to GRE from Ankara,Turkey to Anchorage, Alaska and across 488 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you're listening to Get Rich Education. Today's guest was one of four panelists at a conference that I attended recently. The panel was named innovative solutions to the housing crisis, and her story struck me as interesting, so I invited her to be on the show today, we'll learn that with rent control in New York City, when landlords cannot go inside their own properties and aren't allowed to sell their own properties, seven states have price ceilings on rents, and I'll tell you here At GRE we avoid investing in these places. Listen closely, California, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Maine, Oregon, Minnesota and then DC too. Now sometimes rent control isn't too restrictive. For example, you can raise the rent no more than the rate of inflation plus 3% per year, or the rate of inflation plus 5% per year. And also, it's not all parts of those states where it applies. In fact, you typically do not find the policies statewide in those states that I mentioned, although you do in Oregon, it's statewide in Oregon, and there you can still raise the rent 7% plus the rate of inflation each year. And the good news is that 37 states actually have laws against rent control, specifically saying that you cannot enact it. So not only do 37 states not have it, they just wouldn't even allow a law for it. And there is a strong consensus, like I mentioned here on the show before, among economists that rent control, it reduces the quantity and quality of housing. Today, we'll focus on just how dilapidated rental units become under rent stabilization, which is a lot like rent control in New York City. And we'll discuss New York State and Buffalo. And by the way, I find something amazing. I mean, just say you would ask a question of any citizen of the world, no matter where they live, from Indonesia to Japan, to Bangladesh, to Nigeria to the United States. If you would just ask any citizen of the world, what is the capital of the world? I think that the best answer that you could come up with is New York City. I'm in the United States, and there are people right here in this country that have such little understanding of New York City, and what goes on there, and where it even is, it just amazes me. Maybe it's my own bias, because I'm a geography guy, but now, for example, to get from New York City out to Buffalo, that's an almost seven hour drive to the northwest two different parts of New York State. These are two very different places. We'll get into that shortly. But first in the wider real estate world, I did a little research since first mentioning this to you last week here, where mortgage rates have fallen fully one and a half points from the recent high. All right. Well, with every half point drop in mortgage rates, like I learned from First American, that's my source. With every half point drop in mortgage rates, about 1.1 million additional American households can qualify to buy an entry level home that's defined as the bottom 25% priced here. That's the number, and I checked their math. So with a full point drop in mortgage rates, then 2.2 million more American households can qualify to buy an entry level home. So we could very well have more buyers here soon, but yeah, when all these homeowners are still locked into three and 4% mortgage rates, I don't know that you're gonna have that many more sellers. So with demand exceeding supply, look for more upward pressure on home prices, especially higher values for those entry level homes that make the best rentals. Now, I'm talking about borrowing right there. And what happens when rates go down for mortgages, when they go down for borrowing? Well, rates on savings accounts, they typically fall as well. And this is a scenario that a lot of people expect. Now, most of my real estate activity is a borrower. I'm always here touting the virtues of how leverage builds wealth, and I know that I don't want to be a saver. So for my more liquid funds, I am a lender, and I'm reliably paid a stable 8% interest rate. And I think I've told you before that for years now, I make loans to real estate companies, and they use my funds to rehab properties and for other operations. Yes, an 8% return that I'm getting, and it's almost like getting an 8% yield on a savings account, and it's not expected to fall when interest rates fall. Well, the primary difference is that I often have to wait a few months if I want my full principal return, but not years. So it's not as rigid as a bank CD, but it's not as liquid as an old fashioned bank savings account. So the private real estate company that I've long made loans to works pretty diligently to maintain asset value and assure optimal returns. They'll tell you that they've never missed making a payment for their private money lending programs. And I did a little research, and I found that their fund utilization is 99.6% that really means that they deploy almost all of the capital if you want, you can potentially get a high yield at the same place I do. Sometimes you can get more than 8% or less than an 8% return, depending on what liquidity terms you want and what other terms you like. The company is Freedom Family Investments. They are real estate centric. If you want, go right ahead and learn more. You can do that by texting FAMILY to 66866. Remember, you're the lender, they're the borrower. And again, for most investment types, I want to be the borrower, but for liquid funds, and the fact that the rate of inflation is now down, an 8% return has a higher real yield now than it did two years ago and one year ago. And again, I'm happy to share it with you. It's Freedom Family Investments. If you want to learn more, do it now while it's on your mind and text FAMILY to 66866.

This week, our guest is a public policy expert that's also involved with a film called Shabbification, the story of rent control. Hey, welcome to GRE Jen Sidorova.

Jen Sidorova 9:16

Good to be here. Thank you for having me.

Keith Weinhold 9:18

Yeah and congrats. Shabbification screening in a lot of places, like the Anthem Film Festival at Freedom Fest last month and this month in New York City, tell us about the film.

Jen Sidorova 9:31

Yeah, so in Shabbification, I follow small property owners like myself who are subject to regulation, and most of them are owners of rent stabilized properties in the city of New York. Right, I follow three specific landlords. I They take me to their homes, they take me to their properties, and they show me around, and you can visually see what regulation has done to their property. Yeah, one of these properties was occupied by a tenant. From 1969 up until 2021 wow. And the landlord was never allowed to be in the property, so obviously no repairs were made. And you could see visually that the apartment was like from the 60s. It's like a museum, but not in a good way, because it's really falling apart, right? So it's like, almost like a Tenement Museum, or, you know, another museum New York City, where we they actually preserve those dates. But in this case, a private landlord actually owns that space, and they're having a difficult time. And so what my specific Shabbification With my film is about is a very specific regulation in New York City that happened in 2019 that applied to rent stabilized properties. What it did that is that it won't allow landlords to put them properties on the market even if they rent stabilized tenant vacates them. They're no longer allowed to put their properties on the market at all. And more than that, they are also not allowed to raise rent, even if they do repairs. So sometimes the cost of repairs in New York City for one bedroom unit can be 200,000 and they're only allowed to raise the rent by like roughly $90 a month, and only for 15 years. So it will take them, like, 200 years to recoup their investment. And obviously that doesn't make any sense, so stories like that is what my short film is about. I myself am a small property owner, so it was very special for me to go and kind of tell the story of people like me.

Keith Weinhold 11:36

That's amazing. So rent stabilization something that New York City has a history of. I sort of think of that as a genteel term or rent control. And a lot of times when your rent can't be raised above a certain amount, you get these long term tenants, in some cases, for decades, and in this case, over 50 years, with this particular tenant in New York City and landlords don't have much of any incentive to improve property when rent control is in place, because they know they cannot get a commensurate bump in rent.

Speaker 1 12:11

rent control and rent stabilization are a form of government enforced limit on the rents. And in New York we have two laws that govern that we have more but the most prominent ones are the rent control law of 1969 and the Rent Stabilization Act of 1974 so back in the day, there were issues with availability of affordable housing, and the government was trying to fix it, and that fix was supposed to be temporary. It was supposed to eventually run out once the tenants who were currently in place at the time in late 60s and 70s, once they move out, landlords were able to put those properties back on the market. And eventually, that's kind of what was going on up until 2019 when housing stability and Tenant Protection Act made it so that the landlords could no longer put their rent stabilized properties on the market anymore. So essentially, all rent stabilization became permanent in the state of New York, and actually, in the just a couple of weeks after my film, in April of 2024 we had another law. It's called Good Cause Eviction, and that one regulates every landlord or enterprise who owns more than 11 units. So once you own 11 units or more, you're subject to regulation. You can no longer evict your tenant without a good cause. And there's a bunch of other rules that apply, including the limit on how much rent you can raise year to year. So yeah, that's certainly what's going on. That's roughly the landscape all regulation in New York.

Keith Weinhold 13:44

Yeah, some of this is really punitive, because if rent control comes into a market, that's one thing sometimes that landlords want to do. They want to sell their property, and in some cases, there's a roadblock against that. You know, Jen, I looked up the definition of Shabbification. I just simply googled the term. Urban Dictionary had one of the first hits, and fortunately, it was a G rated definition there in urban dictionary, it was defined as the opposite of gentrification. So therefore with Shabbification, it's where a neighborhood goes through deterioration and despair. So tell us about some more of those bad cases of deterioration, in despair, in Shabbification. Just how bad does it get?

Speaker 1 14:30

Well, one of the properties that we went to was basically from 1910 it was in Chinatown, and we saw was that the bathtub was in the kitchen in that property, oh my gosh. And I believe that was a way for them to do renovations fast and cheap, like 100 years ago. And because that property falls under rent stabilization, and there's obviously limits on how much rent you can charge. So. Landlords of those properties never really make renovations. Sometimes you could see cases like the director of photography, who was in the film, he lives in a rent sabilized property, and in his case, he has a shower unit in his kitchen as well. Instead of a tub, he has a shower unit. And it kind of is, as he described as one of those telephone booths, like, you know, red telephone booths from London, and then kind of just sits in the kitchen, and you obviously cannot really have company or friends visiting or dinner or anything if you have something like that. But those are the setups that we frequently see. Also a lot of things like uneven floors or just, you know, the property, if it's not being taken care of, there might be, like, a hole in the wall, a hole in the ceiling, or the ceiling is falling out. And those are really graphic images. And we do, we do capture them on camera a lot in Shabbification, and that comes from, kind of, my attraction to urban decay. I do enjoy, you know, touring older buildings, or maybe buildings that are preserved as a ruin, maybe like an old prison and or like an old mental asylum. I do do that a lot. It's just a hobby when I travel. So I was always attracted to that esthetic, and that does show in my film as well. I think I love studying the tragedy because I love studying how the hope died, because it's fascinating to me. It's very specific to usually a town or a city, and then just is so telling, and it's such a teaching moment for us as a society to kind of revisit those stories and figure out why did that hope die. And you can see a lot of that in the film.

Keith Weinhold 16:41

it's a great way to scratch one's itch for I suppose, seeing real life haunted houses, if you will, in Jen's film Shabbification here. Well, Jen, we've been talking about the conditions of the tenants. Why don't we talk more about how the landlord is portrayed in Shabbification.

Speaker 1 17:00

since this is the story, primary of the landlords, not so much on the tenant. You know, normally in this sort of films and these sort of documentaries, the story falls in tenant, because the tenant is the one who is seen as likable and sympathetic person, and that's how, and that's usually a more preferable framing angle. But in my story, my story is a story of a merchant class, or like a more, like a war on the merchant class, the war on landlords. Because in the state of New York, no matter how small or large of a landlord you are, whether you own one unit or 1000 by a lot of people in New York State Legislature as a landlord, you're seen as evil. They think you've done something wrong and you have to be punished. So that's the attitude to a lot of landlords, and although they're not that many small property owners, and sometimes we're not seen as a sympathetic I think this is the story that we need to tell, because some of them are like me. I am an immigrant to this country. Once I got an opportunity, I got my first rental property in Buffalo, New York, and right away, I've been renting out three units and lived in one, and I still do own it. Five years later, I live alongside with my tenants. When I go on vacations, they feed my cat, and when they go travel for work, I do take care of their properties. I water their plants, do things like that. So we do live as a small community, and this is something that a lot of people do in Buffalo, because it's a working class city. It's very hard to be able to afford a single family home. Right away, what you can do is acquire one of these properties, either a two unit, three or four unit, because when you're four units less, then you can do an FHA loan, which I did, and you can put minimum amount down, which I did, and then day one, right away, the income from the tenants was paying off my mortgage, right? That's kind of how I can build generational wealth. But not only that, that's how I can start my journey of home ownership and hopefully building generational wealth in the future, as I've said. And I also have my own passion for buildings, and we did a lot of renovations with my family on that property. So there's a lot of heart and soul in that space. And laws like rent control and Good Cause Eviction, they put a cap on people like me and how much we can grow. Because, as I've mentioned, the Good Cause Eviction in New York, it puts a cap on how far and how big people like me can grow. Because once you have 11 units, that's my cap. Once I have 11 units, I have subject to regulation, and somebody like me cannot afford having a tenant who would just never move out. So yeah, I think these laws, they intended to protect the needy. They intended to protect the families, but they do just the opposite. They. Just limit how much we can grow, and they also just make an environment within our properties very toxic, because tenants now basically have more rights than we do.

Keith Weinhold 20:09

Yeah, well, you're really humanizing the plight of the landlord here, Jen with your four Plex over there. For those that aren't familiar with the geography in western New York in Buffalo, sort of the opposite end of the state where New York City is. And, yeah, I mean, landlords are usually portrayed in media is these people that are sort of greedy and bumbling and they won't fix the broken air conditioner. And, you know, it's, it's unusual to me, Jen, that a lot of people tend to resent landlords, whom are often small business owners, but yet they champion other small business owners. And talk about how, you know, small business ownership is the very heart of America. I'm trying to figure out why that is, you know, maybe some tenants that just don't really understand how things work. Just think, well, why should I have to pay this landlord. All I'm doing is sort of renting air or renting space. But you know, one group of tenants that does not seem to resent landlords, Jen, in my experience, that is people that were previously homeowners and are now tenants. They don't seem to resent landlords, and that's probably because that tenant that has experience being a homeowner. They've seen bills for property tax and property insurance and mortgage principal and mortgage interest and maintenance and repairs. I think that's what makes the difference.

Jen Sidorova 21:33

Yeah, definitely. It's almost like, you know, when I lived with my parents, I didn't pay attention to the bills, like election bills or water bills or anything. But once you start living on your own, you now see how it gets deducted from your account, and then it changes you, adds you towards consumption, changes right? You now turn off the light when you leave and do just small things like that. And that's a similar psychology that works with people who previously owned their own homes. I think what the dynamic that's happening here with tenants is there's always going to be more tenants than landlords, so tenants have a lot more political power, and we see a lot of that in New York. We have a lot of tenant groups, tenant unions, who are very hold a little, a lot of political power. And it's one side of it, another side of it is that a lot of these policies do benefit large landlords, in a sense that once the small property owner is no longer able to keep up the property and they just foreclose on it, a larger landlord can always pick it up. And for large landlords, these costs of litigating with the tenant, or the cost of fixing a unit, or even the cost of having somebody live without paying for a few months, these are just the costs of running business, whereas for somebody like me, it's a significant chunk of my income, right? So at the moment, I think it's like 25% of my income is coming from the rentals, so it's significant. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, on the other side of political power, I just legislators who do not want to see private rentals. You know, small property owners having rentals and Damn, motivations are something else. It's almost like, if there's one conspiracy theory that I believe in, is that one you know, is that there is a war on the merchant class among some legislators, especially in the state of New York, who really just do not want to see small property owners providing housing to the community, and they would rather see it in in the hands of larger developers, and that's just the nature of how political process works, sometimes.

Keith Weinhold 23:45

in the broad business world, large institutional corporations, they're often pro regulation for just the reason you talked about it helps put smaller operators out of business that can't bear the expense of dealing with the regulation. But yeah, your film Shabbification, it helps underscore the fact that rent control, it stifles the free market in the process of price discovery. I mean really that price discoveries, that is the process of supply versus demand, with the referee being the price and finding that right rent amount, and amidst this low housing supply we have, it's just really bad timing for any jurisdiction to enact rent control. Existing landlords stop improving property. Builders stop building new property, and it can make landlords want to sell, like we touched on earlier. But also I'd like to talk about making the other case, the case for rent control. When we come back, we're talking with public policy expert Jan siderova, the maker of a film called shabbatation, where we come back. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at. Ridge lending group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President changley Ridge personally. Start now, while it's on your mind at Ridge lendinggroup.com that's Ridge lendinggroup.com.

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Caeli Ridge 26:32

This is Ridge Lending Group's president, Caeli Ridge. Listen to get rich education with Keith Weinhold, and remember, don't quit your Daydream.

Keith Weinhold 26:52

Welcome back to Get Rich Education. We're talking with a really interesting guest, Jen Sidorova. She's the maker of a new film called Shabbification. This centers on rent control and dilapidated housing conditions. And Jen, you know, I've talked about here on both this episode and another episode a few weeks ago about the deleterious downstream consequences of rent control. It benefits a small group of people in the short term and ends up with deteriorated neighborhoods in a lot of municipalities, but I like to look at things from the other side. What is the case for rent control?

Jen Sidorova 27:27

So I think the the original story behind the rent control in New York City was that in the 70s, it was just really dire situation, kind of what we're going through right now. Right now in New York we have the housing crisis that's the worst in the last 50 years, so basically right around the 70s again. So the current vacancy rate is like 2% and at the same time, we have between 20 to 60,000 rent stabilized rent control units that are vacant because landlords just do not want to put them in more on the market, because talking just in New York City here, yeah, just New York City. And New York City has roughly 1 million of rent stabilized or rent control properties altogether. But yeah, so what is the case for rent control, right? So in my opinion, what is the most problematic saying about rent control or rent stabilization right now, the way the current laws are in New York City is that the property itself is being stabilized or controlled. It's not the person. It doesn't matter how much money you're making. If you're making half a million dollars, you can still live in an apartment that's like 500 $600 a month, right?

Keith Weinhold 28:38

You can have your second lavish vacation home out in the Hamptons, and it doesn't matter.

Jen Sidorova 28:42

Yeah, you can live in Texas for like, nine months out of a year, and come back to New York City for the summer, and then people do that. That's like, not, I'm not making it up. It's a real thing. People are basically hoarding these rent stabilized rent control units, and they just never let them go. And that definitely pushes out young people out of the city. It pushes immigrants out of the city, because people, yeah, all the newcomers. So that's what's going on. So instead of having a property itself being controlled, what could be done? Maybe like a voucher program, maybe like a housing voucher program, but we can only do this if we let the rent control and rent stabilization laws sunset. So once the current tenants move out, that has to be put back on the market, right? So what we could do is the housing voucher program maybe, so that we will always have people in the society that need a little bit of help, but it shouldn't be in such a way that they it's the landlord who is paying for it, right? So if there's a housing voucher, they can live wherever and however that program works in the sense that whoever picks up the rest of the bill, as long as it's not a landlord directly. Yeah, so that's how I see it. And I think just other things that can be done is better zoning regulation that allow more buildings to be built a lot of New York City. Is like a museum, right? We have a lot of historic buildings, a lot of preservation of all the buildings, but we have to reevaluate that, because we don't necessarily have to have the East Village look like a museum if we don't have enough housing, right? So we have to reassess of how much of those policies we still want to hold on to, and then maybe also building codes. Sometimes it's really hard to expand or have more units within the same building. If I have a four unit property and I want to convert it into five units, I am subject to whole different regulation and a whole different bunch of coding, whereas my square footage remains the same. So I think we have to revisit that, because a lot of these new materials that we work with when building are safe right now. So maybe we could let people do more with their properties, and that way we provide more house.

Keith Weinhold 30:50

Yeah. Well, some of this comes down to, how do you get politicians to say no to rent control, which I believe is part of the motivation of your film?

Jen Sidorova 31:01

Right, So the motivation behind myself was that I bought my property in 2019 I went under contract in 2019 and I fully acquired the rights in March of 2020 and between the August of 2019 and 2020 we had a new law passed that was housing stability and Tenant Protection Act 2019 in New York State, and that kind of put a cap on how much I can raise the rent if the tenant remains the same. And at the time when I found that out, I was like, well, that's kind of quirky, but whatever, what can I do? But then a year from that, like in 2021 we had a new mayoral candidate who was a socialist, openly socialist person, and they were advocating for rent control. And at the time, I had an opportunity to go to do a film workshop, and I was thinking, so what is that I really wanted to write film about? And I was this, definitely rent control, because it's relevant for me. It's the story of my people among small property owners, and that's how I did it. And I really want policy action. The idea behind this film, the goal is policy change, right? But this short film is only the beginning of my project, which is exploration of the topic prevent control in the state of New York and everywhere else in the country, and we keep interviewing more people, more experts, and to convert into a larger film, and then hopefully, like a full feature documentary, in order to educate both policymakers and the public about what rent control can do. And eventually, we do hope for policy change in New York, and hopefully, with this film, no more new rent control can happen, or at least when politicians start those bills, they take a look and talk to me and make some changes.

Keith Weinhold 32:52

Well, you're really doing some good work there. I appreciate that. I mean, rent control is analogous to price controls, and we see what happens when there's price controls per se foods like you've seen in other nations in previous decades, and that's how you end up with bread lines, because producers don't want to produce bread when they would have to take a loss and they can't profit on selling that bread. You see a shortage of housing come up just the same, like you do with bread. Well, tell us some more about Buffalo and its market. You had touched on it previously. I think they have lots of older two to four unit buildings there. It sounds like you found one of the four plexes where you could do the owner occupied thing. FHA, three and a half percent down 12 month owner occupancy period. Minimum credit score only needs to be 580 at last check, which is the same way I began with the four Plex building. But yeah, let's learn more about the buffalo housing market. Just a little bit there with rental properties and then the rising tide against Airbnb, like you touched on last month when we met in person.

Jen Sidorova 33:56

Right, so a lot of those properties, a lot of those older homes, were built around the late 1800s beginning or 1900 and that's how they used to build back in the day. Because what would happen is that a large Victorian home with two primarily stories, with two large floors and then maybe an attic and a basement, but one family would live on one floor and another on the second floor. So they were originally built for two homes, but at that time, both families would own that space, right? So there would be co owned by two families. Mine was also an originally a two family home that was converted into a four unit because the previous owners made an addition a lot of young families, that's how they start when they cannot afford a single family home. That's how they start with home ownership and the money that they make for with the rentals. That's how they pay mortgage partially, or maybe that's how they pay the taxes, depending on where you live in the city, sometimes tax burden can alone be very high. So as I've mentioned, we had some mayoral candidates talking about rent control, but recently we started having Airbnbs being regulated in Buffalo. And so there's a few districts in the city where Airbnb is regulated, and my district does not fall into that, and I actually am on four of my units. One is occupied by me. Two are long term tenants, and one which is the newest and the nicest one. I decided to make Airbnb interesting because I did not want to risk, you know, giving it to a long term tenant, because it's just such a nice unit. It's a lot of investment that went in there, so I didn't want it to be provided by somebody who would never leave, because the, you know, environment is just so toxic. You just don't want to take chances, unless you like, really believe in the time. But I don't know people are out here. So I decided to keep it Airbnb. And so because some of the other parts of the city are regulated, and mine is not. I am the beneficiary of that regulation because I get a lot, all of those clients, right, all those Airbnb client so in that sense, funny enough, I am benefiting from some parts of the city being regulated because my my part is not. So all the clients go to me. I do have an Airbnb right now, but we're definitely at the risk of all of the city being regulated. And I think a lot of people complain, right? People who lived in the city for a long time, allegedly, they started complaining to the city council about not recognizing their neighborhood because of Airbnb. But I think what legislators need to understand is that my generation, millennials and Gen Z. That's how we live our lives. We share our assets, right? It's like a big millennial and Gen Z thing that the Airbnb itself is a millennial thing, that this is just will be recognized, that assets like cars and houses, they can be shared, you don't have to have that many of them, even from the unit in the unit that I live in. When I I went out on a trip to Long Island last week, and I airbnbied my own unit. And so that's just how it is. That's just a little lifestyle. And when I see new people who stay in Airbnb on my street, it doesn't bother me. I kind of enjoy a little bit of a variety. But, you know, sometimes it's almost like a culture clash or a generational shift when it comes to thinking about properties and housing ownership. Yeah, that's just my experience.

Keith Weinhold 37:33

Younger generations embrace the sharing economy, and that is quite the mixed use building that you have there with your four Plex in Buffalo, you've got one unit that's a primary residence, a second unit that's a short term rental, and then two long term rental units. There's some diversification of income and utility, for sure. Well, Jen, tell us more about how our audience can connect with you, and especially how they can watch Shabbification.

Jen Sidorova 38:00

So Shabbification, right now is in the film festival circuit, so it's not available to watch yet. Although, if anyone reaches out directly to me through Instagram, my handle is @Jen_Sidorova, which is my first underscore, my last name, anyone can just reach out directly to me and I will send them a screener, and they can watch the full film. And also on my Instagram page, I do put a lot of like other content about buildings, and a lot of like videos so and some, you know, B roll footage that we haven't used in the film, but you can watch it in my Instagram. So yeah, definitely check it out. I also do write for Reason Foundation, and you can find it on my profile, my policy writing work. You can find it at reason.com and it's just under my name, pretty much Instagram and reason website.

Keith Weinhold 38:51

Jen, thanks so much for your Shabbification project. I really think it's going to help people see an important part of American society in a different light. It's been great having you here on the show.

Jen Sidorova 39:02

Thank you so much.

Keith Weinhold 39:09

I talked to Jen some more outside of our interview. Her buffalo four Plex has a high flying 1.04% rent to price ratio. I crunched it out that is super strong for a four unit building, but it is older, and like she said in the interview, she did make some substantial renovation to it, yeah, rent control is a bad plan. You know, on an episode a few weeks ago, I mentioned to you about last month's White House proposal for a sort of rent control light, that was such a bad plan. I told you that it only applies to property owners of 50 plus units, and rent increases were capped at 5% a year. Well, I dug into that release from the White House briefing room, and it's almost like they know it won't work, because. Oh my gosh, this is almost humorous. Economists and any long term thinkers will tell you that rent control doesn't work because you won't get any new builds. Well, the White House release Wood said it won't apply to new builds. It's almost like someone told them, like, hey, this won't work for that reason. So then they wrote that sentence in there, which just undermines so much of it. And economists will also tell you that what doesn't work because owners don't want to improve property well, yet, the White House release actually said it would not apply to substantially renovated property. I mean, my gosh, with these carve outs and all the other caveats that are in it that I described a few weeks ago, this White House rent control planet has no shot of going anywhere. It is lip service virtue signaling, and also would not get past a divided Congress. Really bad plan. In fact, how doomed to failure is wide scale rent control. Well, don't worry, the federal government hasn't regulated rent on private buildings since World War Two. Yeah, it's been 80 years, and it took World War Two scale conditions to bring it. Thanks again to today's guest, Jen Sidorova, with reason.com. Again, like I mentioned earlier, if you want to deploy some of your more liquid funds for a potential 8% return at the same place where I've been getting an 8% return for years, you can make a loan to a long standing real estate company for their property rehabs and other operations. This might really help you out. You can learn more by texting FAMILY to 66866, lots of great shows coming up here at GRE to actionably build your Real Estate Wealth until next week, I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, don't quit your daydream.

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Keith Weinhold 42:21

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514: Zoning Out: How to Combat the Housing Crisis and Build Wealth
12 aug· Get Rich Education
Research Director for California YIMBY, professional city planner and author of Arbitrary Lines, Nolan Gray, joins us to discuss how zoning impacts our communities, affordability of retail and commercial real estate.

Zoning laws contributing to the affordable housing crisis and what we can do about it.

Shifting from NIMBY to YIMBY mindset requires understanding benefits of growth.

How zoning laws prevent new development, causing housing shortages and limiting entrepreneurship.

California's statewide legalization of accessory dwelling units can be seen as a successful zoning reform example.

We discuss how cities like Austin and Minneapolis have seen price stabilization by allowing for more mid-rise multi-family housing near transit and job-rich areas.

Learn how to connect with local policymakers and planners to advocate for policy changes that encourage more housing supply.

Resources mentioned:

Show Notes:

GetRichEducation.com/514

You can follow Nolan on X @mnolangray

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Otter.ai

Keith Weinhold 00:00

Welcome to GRE. I'm your host. Keith Weinhold, if you don't take the right action, inflation will make you poorer. Then the affordable housing crisis keeps your tenant as your tenant is zoning. What's ruining American cities in keeping starter homes unaffordable or just plain extinct in some areas, how do we get more apartments and more density built today on Get Rich Education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern Internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls and you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies disclaimers. Ugh. At no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life. See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor, and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple text, GRE to 66866, and when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course, completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Daydream Letter, and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text GRE to 66866, text GRE to 66866.

Corey Coates 01:38

You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get Rich Education.

Keith Weinhold 01:54

Welcome to GRE from Calgary, Alberta to Tirana Albania and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you are listening to get rich education. When most investors think about inflation, they get it mostly wrong. Their strategy is inflation hedging. And you know, even if you successfully hedge inflation, you are really missing out. You've really got to get fired up about beating inflation. When did you get your first job? Like your first real job in your life? Let's say you did that when you were age 18. Well, that work that you did when you were 18, that created value for somebody else. And you could have done anything with your valuable youth, but instead, you chose to provide value by focusing your time and your energy to sweep floors or enter data into a spreadsheet for somebody else. You were paid for that work that you did. You were paid in dollars, well, if you just tried to store your finite energy that you expended for that employer into dollars, you will lose. Your value will be coerced away from you by your government that just incessantly and relentlessly debases the dollar that you earned at age 18, because they just keep printing more of them. Well, that money printer, which creates the inflation is then an extraction of your resources. Yeah, they extracted your resources, of your time, energy and ingenuity away from you when you were 18, and even the work that you do today, its value will get extracted away from you too. If you say, store dollars under your mattress, if you instead invest it so that its growth rate keeps up with inflation, well, then all you've done is hedge inflation. My point is, get upset about how the system extracts resources from you. And my other point is, don't hedge. Hedge just means that you're treading water. Position yourself to win instead, because you can when you buy income producing property with a loan, you don't just hedge against the inflation. You win three ways at the same time. You probably know that's called the inflation Triple Crown, a concept that I coined. You can watch the three part video series on net, free. It's now easier than ever to access, learn how to actually profit from inflation, not just hedge yourself against it. You can watch that, and it's friction free. There's no email address to leave or anything. Simply watch learn and maybe even be amazed at how you can do this. Those three videos are available. At getricheducation.com/inflationtriplecrown, that's sort of long, so you can also get there with getricheducation.com/itc. Again, that's getricheducation.com/itc. Before we talk with our guests about how zoning is making the affordable housing crisis, even worse, housing values and rents are really looking stable in today's environment. CoreLogic tells us that single family rents are up 3.2% annually. That's the highest rate in a year. And when it comes to prices, the NAR tells us that existing single family home prices hit a record high of $426,900 and that is an all time high. And note that that's existing homes, not new. So median existing homes are basically 427k now. And what does that really mean? Well, that is up 4.1% year over year, the real estate market continues to be it's sort of this tale of the equity rich versus the affordability challenged. Are you equity rich or are you affordability challenged? Well, the more property that you own, the more equity rich you are feeling, that you're going to feel, and oftentimes you're renting out property to the affordably challenged. Of course, the big buzz and a potential really turning point in the economy here or not, it really began about 10 days ago. That's when America reported weak jobs numbers, and that set the unemployment rate from 4.1% up to 4.3%. Citigroup and JP Morgan are now predicting half point Fed rate cuts in both September and November, not just quarter point cuts anymore. I mean, gosh, if there's one thing that we really know, it's that nobody really knows anything. Starting about two years ago, everyone thought a recession was eminent. Bloomberg even said there was a 100% chance that we'd have one by last year. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Everyone thought there would be six or seven Fed rate cuts this year. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You can't even completely count out of rate cut at the next meeting. I mean, sheesh, before that time, we still have two new CPI reports to come out and another jobs report. So, you know, over the long term, this is just how people act. They tend to get ahead of themselves and overreact, and that's really more of a stock market investor sort of thing. And yeah, despite the volatility, you know, us real estate investors are here more chill than Snoop Dogg was at the Olympics. All this fear, what it does is it pushes money into bonds. And when money goes into bonds, it makes mortgage rates go down, and they recently hit 16 month lows near 6.4% and if rates stay low, millions of additional Americans will be able to qualify to buy property that couldn't before, and that could really put more upward pressure on property prices, more than this 4.1% year over year appreciation that we're currently seeing. We know that lots of investors are buying properties like you, getting equity rich and serving the affordability challenge. In fact, 60% of Home Builders indicated that they sold homes to investors from February through April, while 40% reported that they didn't sell to investors. And investors now represent wholly 25% of both new and resale residential transactions and among builders that sold to investors in the past 90 days, 69% of them sold to mom and pop investors. Mom and pop investors, they're loosely defined as those that own one to 10 rental units. They may very well be you. Institutional investors, those that own 10 plus investment properties in this home builders definition here. Well, those institutional investors, they accounted for just 4% of investor sales nationally. So again, more home builders are selling to small real estate investors, those that own one to 10 units. Well, now in almost 10 years of doing the show here, we've never had a full discussion about zoning, and really this is the time. Okay, this ends today because we describe how it's contributing to the affordable housing crisis and what we can do about it. I mean, anymore you really can't find a brand new build 250k starter home anymore, unless maybe it's a tiny home, which then really isn't a full home, and you sacrifice your lifestyle. Well, zoning is a big reason why the Supreme Court decision that deemed zoning constitutional that occurred in 1926. Yes, that's going to turn 100 in the year 2026 that Supreme Court decision that infamously referred to apartments as parasites. Wow. But yet is some zoning good? I mean, say that you and your family have your nice, quiet, single family home on an idyllic half acre lot. Well, if that's the case, should it be allowed that Bitcoin mining facility with its loud cooling fans is built right next to you I'll ask our guest expert about that, and what about say less offensive transgressions, like a condo board that says that you can't rent your unit out. How much zoning is too much or too little? I mean, is someone just being overly sensitive if a duplex is built next to their single family home and they complain about that? So we'll get into all of that. And it really comes down to limiting this McMansionization risk type of nimbyism, not in my backyardism. That's what it is. Again, you can watch the three free videos on how you can substantially and actionably profit from inflation, not hedge, but profit from inflation. It's the inflation triple crown. Be sure to check out those three videos at getricheducation.com/itc. I learned about this week's guest through reason.com we met in person at last month's Freedom Fest in Las Vegas. He is the research director for California Yimby, yes. Yimby, not NIMBY, that is yes in my backyard. And he's a professional city planner. He's the author of the book Arbitrary Lines, how zoning broke the American city and how to fix it. Welcome to GRE. Nolan Gray,

Nolan Gray 12:24

thanks so much, Keith. It's a pleasure to be with you, Nolan,

Keith Weinhold 12:26

you wrote one article for reason.com with such an interesting title, five words, Abolish Zoning-All of it, you're pretty emphatic there at what you'd like to have happen before we discuss that, why don't you tell us in your words what zoning is?

Nolan Gray 12:44

So for the past 100 years, America's cities have been running a grand experiment and how they're governed. Essentially, what we've done, beginning in the 1920s is we said for every single parcel in the city, we're going to assign an allowed use. So most people, if you've played Sim City, you know this might be residential, commercial, industrial, but it goes into so much more detail than that. Different types of residential might be allowed in different parts of the city, commercial, etc, and the vast majority of most American cities, the only form of residential that's allowed is a detached, single family home, right? So that's one half of it, the second half of what zoning is doing, it's placing arbitrary density limits. So the amount of actual housing or amount of floor area that you can build on any particular lot. And it's important to distinguish this from other forms of land use regulation, because in many cases, these rules aren't actually based on any health or safety concerns, but instead a sort of social project of engineering what a correct city should look like. And as I argue in the book and we can discuss over the course of this conversation, is I argue that these rules have actually had incredible harms for our cities and are at the root of our current housing affordability crisis.

Keith Weinhold 13:45

I think zoning initially, it began in New York City about 100 years ago.

Nolan Gray 13:50

Yeah, so New York City adopted one of the first modern zoning ordinances in 1916 a handful of other cities did so as well. So I'm coming to you from California, Berkeley, California also adopted zoning in this year. And essentially, what happened after New York City adopted it was the federal government put together what's called the standard zoning Enabling Act. They mailed that out to every single state in the country and started putting a lot of pressure on states to adopt zoning and allow local governments to adopt zoning. And then, with the rise of the Federal financial system, as part of the New Deal, housing programs. In many cases, local governments were required or strongly, strongly incentivized to adopt the zoning codes to be eligible for certain federal benefits.

Keith Weinhold 14:29

You know, maybe philosophically, one might think, Nolan, well, America stands for freedom, and I should get to do what I want with my plot of land. But if everyone can do whatever they want with their plot of land. I mean, does that mean that my neighbor then could start a sloppy hog farm, or the neighbor on the other side of me could start a battery factory with smoke stacks? So do those sort of things help make the case for zoning?

Nolan Gray 14:57

Yeah, that's a great question, you know. So before the rise of zoning. And we actually had a lot of rules for these classic nuisances, these classic externalities, things like smoke, smells, noise, or even just lots and lots of traffic generation. We had rules to say, Hey, if you want to operate certain types of uses, you need to be in a certain designated area where we're going to tolerate a much higher level of externalities. Zoning does that, but it also does so much more. And it's those other aspects that I think are ill conceived. So for example, of course, we don't want a slaughterhouse next to a single family home, but zoning might also say, Oh, by the way, you're not allowed to have a duplex next to a single family home. You're not allowed to start a home based business. You're not allowed to operate certain commercial uses out of certain strip malls in certain parts of the city. You're not allowed to build anything unless you have a certain amount of number of off street number of off street parking spaces, which can make adaptive reuse of historic properties very difficult. So I think absolutely there's a core of land use regulation that makes sense, that's focused on neighbors, not imposing costs on each other, but our current system goes so much further than that, in many ways, imposes new and unconceived costs, including increasing housing prices, limiting housing options in many of our neighborhoods, making it harder to start a business or to have neighborhoods serving retail in many of our neighborhoods.

Keith Weinhold 16:09

So perhaps zoning has just simply gone too far, and you touched on it earlier. It seems to me that about three quarters of the area of most cities have zoning restricted only to single family home building, for example, and they ban apartments completely. So maybe, as we try to find the right balance of how much zoning is right, tell us more about really the thesis of your book and why we should ban zoning completely.

Nolan Gray 16:38

Of course, we need certain regulations for externalities and nuisances, and to certain extent that can be resolved through litigation, but ideally you look for it and you say, okay, look, there are certain areas where we're going to tolerate certain nuisances and other places where we will not. But beyond that, I think so much of what our land use regulations do is actually causing harm. It's preventing property owners from using their property in ways that are not in any meaningful sense, harmful to their neighbors. It's created this context where now if you want to build just about anything in the typical American city, you have to go through multiple public hearings, you have to do an environmental report in some states, you have to get the permission of local elected officials, you have to undertake all these actions that heavily politicize every new development. And so what we get is so many of our neighborhoods and so many of our cities are locked in amber. And this is partly why, over the last few years, where we've seen a huge amount of demand flow into housing, we've simply had these extreme shortages because markets could not respond with the supply that many of our communities needed. So for example, a starter home in many US cities today might be a townhouse, it might be a two bedroom condo, it might be a single family home on a 2500 square foot lot, but those are precisely the forms of housing that in many cases, our zoning codes make illegal to build. So we're essentially saying if you can't afford at least a certain level of housing, you're not allowed to live in many parts of the community, if in the community altogether, or the same with businesses, if you want to start a small business that might not necessarily have any impact on your neighbors, you might require a special permit. You might require a hearing. You might require to attend a hearing where your competitors are going to show up and oppose your project, purely on a cynical basis. So what it's done is it's created this incredibly disruptive system that's prevented our cities from being entrepreneurial and adaptive, and I think this is the root of a lot of the problems that we're facing today.

Keith Weinhold 18:17

Oh, you really surface some good points there Nolan, when I think of over zoning, and we talk about how a lot of times you can't build anything more than a single family home, that certainly creates a lot of problems. Gentrification is sort of a bad word, kind of sprucing up community so much, raising the value so much, that one problem is that familial bonds decay when children that grew up in, say, Southern California, can no longer afford to live there, so they have to move to lower cost Las Vegas, a four to five hour drive away. Excessive gentrification. You touch that, it also harms mobility. If you want to move from Atlanta to Boston for a tech job but you can't find housing, you're not going to move there, so therefore, talent doesn't get matched up with opportunity.

Nolan Gray 19:07

That's exactly right. I mean, this is a at the national scale. This is an important piece of the puzzle, which is we've made it hardest to actually move to some of our most productive places. So as you mentioned, places like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, New York City, for all their problems, these are incredibly productive places where folks can move to and get high paying jobs and other good educational opportunities, but in many cases, these are the most expensive cities in our country, and it's in no small part because of the many rules and regulations that make it so hard to build housing in those contexts. So you're exactly right. Folks actually turn down higher paying jobs or better opportunities and move to places simply because the housing is more affordable, and you pick up on a really important piece of this, which is in many cases, this is breaking apart families. So a lot of folks who are born and raised in a place like California, their parents might have been able to buy their home in the 70s or 80s or 90s, but they can't afford a home. They have no long term path to actually staying in the community. And so what you're actually seeing is neighborhoods and communities being ripped apart. If the situation in places like California has actually got to be so bad that many of the people who are in a certain sense, beneficiaries of the status quo, maybe they own their home and they're seeing the value go up and up and up. They're also saying, Oh, my children can't afford to live near me. I don't ever get to see my grandkids. The person who serves me at the hospital or at the supermarket can't afford to live here, and we're having trouble keeping folks on. The crisis got to be so bad in certain places like California that we're starting to see tremors of reform. But one of the things I like to say is, if you want to fall into a California style housing crisis, most parts of the country don't need to do anything the rules you have on the books have you moving in that trajectory, right? But if you want to remain a place where we can build more housing, where folks can buy their own home or buy small apartment buildings and start to build wealth, you have to allow for more supply to come online.

Keith Weinhold 20:42

Sure, zoning so that you can't build anything other than single family homes compounds the affordability crisis. There really just isn't any such thing as a 250k starter home anymore, anywhere. You represent California, yimby and you live there in the state where people think of ground zero for excessive regulation and taxation and zoning too. I do read more about some zoning being relaxed in California, allowing for the building of an adu on a property, for example, to help build the density. But before you talk about some of the cracks that are actually starting to help break this down. Can you give any bad examples that are especially problematic there in your home state, Nolan?

Nolan Gray 21:27

For the past 50 or 60 years, California, has been stuck under a NIMBY paradigm, not in my backyard, right? Every single new project is politically contentious, has to undertake an environmental report, has to undergo multiple public reviews, it takes years and years to get a permit, and that's if the housing is legal to build at all. As you know, in so many parts of California, there's very little to no new construction happening, and that's because of the rules on the books that make it so hard to build. To the extent that we allow new housing to be built, we have a whole bunch of mandates that force the housing to be a lot more expensive, and even if all that pencils again, it can take two years to get fully entitled in a permit. And so of course, the only housing that actually ends up getting built is quite expensive. And some folks say, Well, if we allow new housing to be built in California, it's all expensive. Well, yes, if you only allow a trickle of new housing in a very expensive context, of course the new housing is going to be expensive. But if you look to places like Texas and Florida, for example, that build lots and lots of new housing and don't have all of these costly mandates, they actually can build a lot of new housing, and actually can keep prices relatively under control and create that new supply of what we call missing middle, low rise housing. So as you mentioned, the tide, I think, is turning in California. The silver lining of things getting so bad is that the culture is shifting. And what we've seen is the emergence of this new yimby movement, or yes, in my backyard. And these are folks are saying, hey, not only is not building more, not this horrible threat to my community, but it's actually this enriching opportunity. It's good to have a growing, healthy, affordable community where folks are building, folks are able to move to high opportunity jobs, and folks are able to have choice in the neighborhood they live in.

Keith Weinhold 22:55

We're talking about zoning and how that's made the affordable housing crisis worse in the United States with California, yimbys, Nolan, gray Nolan. Tell us more about just the exact sorts of codes that are problematic. We touched on apartment building bans, but I think we're also looking at things like off street parking requirements. You need to have so many off street parking spaces before you can build. Otherwise you can't build. You need to have a minimum lot size of a half acre or a quarter acre in order to build here. So can you talk more specifically about just some of those exact problems on the tactical level that are compounding here?

Nolan Gray 23:34

Yeah, that's exactly right. So where are the housings illegal to build altogether. In many cases, there are a whole bunch of rules that increase the price of that housing. So in urban context, for example, where you might want to be building apartments, many cases, you might have parking requirements that say, Well, you have to have two parking spaces per unit or one parking space per bedroom. In many cases, that's what consumers might demand, and you would have to build that to lease out those units or to sell those condos. But if you're building in a context where you might be near a transit line, or you might be near a university campus, or you might be near a major job center, many of your renters might say, hey, actually, I would prefer to have a more affordable rental or a more affordable condo, because we know that there's no such thing as free parking. You know, if it requires a structure or excavation work, parking can easily add $50,000 to the price of a new unit, and so some consumers might want to pay for that, eat that cost, have a parking space. But many consumers, when we relax these rules and say, Hey, developers, you have the incentives and the local knowledge needed to decide how much parking to build. In many cases, we find that they share parking with other uses, so commercial during the day and residential at night, or they allow renters to opt into parking and to pay for parking, but what you get for many households is a cheaper unit. Now another rule that you mentioned, which is very important, is minimum loss size rules. This is certainly a lot more relevant. More relevant and suburban and rural context. But what we say is, if you want to be able to have a single family home, you have to be able to afford at least a certain amount of land. Now, when if you have a context where you don't have water and sewer installed, and you're operating on septic and well water, you do need larger lots as a matter of public health, but in most suburban context, these rules essentially serve no function except to increase the price of housing and the ability to determine what type of housing can be built where is the ability to determine who gets to live where. So if we say, well, you're not allowed to live in this neighborhood unless you can afford a 10,000 square foot lot or a 20,000 square foot lot, what we're essentially doing in 2024 where land is a major factor in affordability, is we're saying that a whole bunch of middle working class households are not allowed to live in these neighborhoods, or they're not allowed to ever become homeowners and start building wealth in the same way that past generations did. And you look at places like Houston, for example, where they don't have zoning, but they have a lot of zoning-like rules. In 1998 they reduced their minimum lot sizes from 5000 square feet citywide to 1400 square feet citywide. And what this did was this kicked off a townhouse and small lot single family home building boom that has helped to keep cities like Houston affordable a whole new supply of starter homes that again, offered that first step on the ladder of home ownership and wealth building.

Keith Weinhold 25:52

Over the decades, home prices have outpaced incomes. There are a few reasons for that. One of them is inflation, with wages not keeping up with the real rate of inflation, but the other are barriers to development. We're talking more about that with Nolan gray. When we come back, you're listening to Get Rich Education. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge Lending Group NMLS, 42056, they provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your pre qualification and chat with President Chaley Ridge personally. Start Now while it's on your mind at ridgelendinggroup.com. That's RidgeLendingGroup.com. Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4% you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation, let the Liquidity Fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk, your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest, year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account. The minimum investment is just 25k you keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back. Their decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor too. Earn 8% hundreds of others are text FAMILY to 66866, learn more about Freedom Family Investments, Liquidity Fund, on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text, FAMILY to 66866.

Robert Kiyosaki 27:50

This is our Rich Dad, Poor Dad author, Robert Kiyosaki. Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold, and the reason I respect Keith, he's a very strong, smart, bright young man.

Keith Weinhold 28:14

Welcome back to Get Rich Education . We're talking with California, yimbys Nolan gray about zoning and how these barriers to development are compounding the affordable housing crisis, and there sure are a number of barriers to multi family production. I really think that's what wild it comes down to. You touched on it earlier, and it's something that I spoke about with our audience a month or two ago. Nolan, and that is, mmm, multi families, missing middle these two to four unit properties, duplexes to fourplexes, where they're only constructing about 40% as many of those here in recent years than they did 20 to 30 years ago. The way I think of it is when you lift barriers to multifamily production, of course, you incentivize builders. If a developer buys an acre of land for, say, $90,000 and they had planned to build one unit on that All right? Well, there's one set of inputs in income that a developer can look at. But instead, if you allow them to go from building one unit on this plot of land to two units on it, it increases their profit potential, and it incentivizes developers from that side as well.

Nolan Gray 29:23

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so there's been some great work by some friends over at the American Enterprise Institute. What they've done is they've created a nationwide map of mcmassionization risk. So when we have these conversations, we say, hey, let's allow for a range of housing typologies in more neighborhoods, duplexes, triplexes, small, low rise, multi family buildings, townhouses, the types of things that were commonly built in a range of neighborhoods before the rise of zoning. Every city in America has a neighborhood like this. That's a mixture of housing typologies. It would be illegal to build that today, but in many cases, we subject it to preservation requirements because we value it so much that we want to keep it. In any case, what happens when you don't allow that type of gradual incremental infill that keeps our communities affordable. What you get instead is the existing single family homes are converted into much larger, much more expensive single family homes. Now, again, there's nothing wrong with that. Many people might want to buy a smaller 19 fizzies bungalow and turn it into a much larger, 2500 square foot single family home, and God bless them if they want to do it. But what we have is rules on the books that say housing can only get more expensive, it can never get more affordable, or you can never unlock the wealth that's tied up in your land by building an adu or by building a duplex, or by creating more housing options for a range of households. And so that's really, really key. You know, the choice is not between, do we want our communities to change or not? The question is, do we want our communities to remain affordable and maybe change and have some more buildings built and more growth and more development. Or do we want our communities to change in the sense of they become more expensive? Folks retire and they move away, the neighborhood gradually becomes significantly more exclusionary, and young folks who moved grew up in the community can no longer afford to stay. That's the option facing many of our communities. And I think the yimby response to this is more housing construction is good and it's healthy and it's part of a thriving community.

Keith Weinhold 31:02

Yeah, Nolan, when we come at this from the familial perspective, like I brought up earlier, it seems like the more zoning there is, the more it benefits seniors and incumbents, the more it benefits the silent generation, the baby boomer generation, and maybe Gen Xers, and it disadvantages millennials and Gen Zers that really don't have their place yet.

Nolan Gray 31:24

Yeah, you know, it's tough. I would say it even hurts seniors, right? I mean, if they want their young adult children to be able to live near them, or, many cases, seniors like the option to be able to build an accessory dwelling unit in their backyard and maybe rent that out to friends or family, or maybe even you move into the adu and allow young adult children to move into the primary residence, or even just rent it out and have an additional source of income to supplement fixed incomes. There's reasons why folks, I think, at all different stages of their life, benefit for more flexibility in the rules that govern what can be built.

Keith Weinhold 31:52

Psychologically, how do we turn one's mindset from a NIMBY mindset to a yimby mindset? I mean, if someone's got their single family ranch home that they want to live in in their senior years, and they want to see its value appreciate, so they don't want duplexes and fourplexes built next to them, rather than them saying no to turn them into saying yes. I mean, how do you get those people to understand that? Well, like this is the way for the next generation, for you to be able to live near your children and grandchildren?

Nolan Gray 32:21

Yeah, that's a great point. You know, I think when you go to these public hearings around projects, you hear relentlessly about the cost of new development, right? Folks speculating about traffic and runoff and other factors parking. We get that perspective. We get bombarded with that perspective. But what we don't get is the alternative perspective of the benefits of a community, remaining relatively affordable, remaining a place where teachers and nurses and firefighters can still afford to be able to own a home and live places, allowing for the kids who grew up in a neighborhood or a city to remain there. And in fact, even just the selfish appeal to the homeowner, there's not actually any evidence that new development happening around you necessarily reduces the price of your single family home, and in some cases, it could actually signal to the market, hey, there's actually development potential on this so when you do decide to maybe sell and move on, your land is potentially going to be more valuable because it has more development potential than it might under a strict exclusionary zoning scenario. So you know, of course, you try to make the altruistic case to people. Hey, think about future generations. Think about folks who maybe want to move to this community or stay in this community, but aren't going to be able to if we don't build housing. But even so, I think there's selfish reasons. If you want to have somebody who's going to check you out at the supermarket or serve you at a restaurant or be a home care nurse, eventually you got to have housing for folks like that. In many cases, new development happening around you is going to increase your land value. Now I would just try the rage of appeals and work people through it. And in many cases, you know, I think people will understand, yeah, okay, I understand we got to have some growth. They might have a perspective on what it should look like, and that's okay. But as long as we can get some consensus that we got to have some growth to accommodate demand the form it takes, we can have a healthy discussion over.

Keith Weinhold 33:57

Yeah, real community is the integration of all different types of people, and not school teachers living an hour away where they need to make a two hour round trip drive every day. Well, Nolan, as we're winding down here, can you give us any more successful zoning reform examples that maybe other communities can look to you touched on the success stories in Houston a bit. Are there some other ones?

Nolan Gray 34:21

Absolutely. Yeah. So one of the most successful things we've done in California has been statewide legalization of accessory dwelling units. Yeah, that's been key. That started in 2017 and that took a lot of legislation to get us to a place where we are today, but that's resulted in something like 80,00 ADU's permitted, since 2017. That's powerful stuff, right? That's 80,000 households that might have a home, or might be able to rent out a unit to young adult child or an aging parent. Really, really powerful. So I would suggest that folks look into that. That's the lowest of the low hanging fruit. Empower homeowners to add additional units to their properties, and by the way, we also allow you use to be added to multifamily properties, and we're seeing a lot of that happen as well. At other contexts, many cities, dozens of cities across the country. Have removed their minimum parking requirements, acknowledging that, hey, this is a huge cost that we're imposing on projects, developers who are close to consumers, who have, they have the incentives and local knowledge to get this question right. Let them decide. So that's been, I think, a big success. You know, certain cities like Austin and Minneapolis, for example, they've actually sort of kept their markets back under control amid all the chaos of the pandemic real estate market fluctuations by allowing for a lot more mid rise multi family on their commercial corridors and in Job rich areas and in places near transit, that's where we have a huge shortage, is these studios and one bedrooms. So young professionals who, if they can't find that unit, they're going to go bid up the price of a two or three bedroom unit, they're going to roommate up and be living in potentially overcrowded conditions. So Austin, Minneapolis, we, relative to peers, they built a lot of housing and have seen prices stabilize as a result. So there's a lot of different success stories, you know, I would say, if you're at all interested in this, talk to your neighbors about this issue. See what sorts of solutions might make sense for your community. You know, in a suburban or a rural community, ADUs or minimum loss size reform might make sense. And an urban community, removing your parking mandates, allowing for more multifamily, allowing for missing middle, make more sense.

Keith Weinhold 36:06

There sure are some encouraging signs. There was there any last thing that a person should know, especially a real estate investor type audience that's interested in buying a property and renting it out to a tenant for the production of income? Is there anything that our group really ought to know about zoning and the direction that things are moving, what to look for and what to be careful of?

Nolan Gray 36:28

Well, as your audience probably knows, you know that first essential step for your mom and pop local real estate investor is often a duplex, a triplex, a four Plex, historically, that was an absolutely essential source of middle class wealth building. Yeah, right. And you can see these in so many historic neighborhoods. And to the extent that we've made those exact typologies so incredibly hard to build, we've cut off this very valuable source of democratic, decentralized wealth building that we need to actually encourage as real estate investors and professionals, in many cases, you're an authority figure with your local policymakers and your local planners, and you can say to them, Hey, here's my perspective on what's happening in the market. You know, we have a shortage of a certain type of small scale multifamily or making this case. You know, I talked to a lot of elected officials, and when I say starter home, I think they still think of the bungalow on the 5000 square foot lot with the two car garage. But a starter home in 2024 might be a townhouse, two bedroom condo, a small lot, single family home. These are the types of stories that real estate investors and professionals are trusted advocates on, and you can make that case and explain to local policymakers. Hey, here's the change that we need or explaining. Hey, I wanted to add an additional unit to a property that I own, or I wanted to redevelop a property I own to add a lot more housing. And these were the barriers that I faced that's incredibly valuable information for your local policymakers and planners. And I would say, you know, look around many US, cities and states now have very active yimby or, Yes, in my backyard groups. Go connect up with them. You could be a valuable, trusted expert for them, somebody that they can learn more about the situation with real estate markets, and they can be more effective advocates for policy that I think a lot of us would like to see.

Keith Weinhold 37:58

And when it comes to changing NIMBY people to yimby people, and we look at esthetics and adu in the back, that really doesn't change aesthetics on the street front. And I've seen very smart, careful designs of duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes that really look just like single family homes from the Street View level. So there really are some ways around this. You've given us some really good ideas today. Nolan, hey, well, someone wants to learn more about you and your work and zoning. What's the best way for them to do that?

Nolan Gray 38:30

Well, I'm on the platform formerly known as Twitter. I'm @mnolangray, M, N, O, L, E, N, G, R, A, y, so feel free to find me there and reach out. And I have a book Arbitrary Lines, how zoning broke the American city and how to fix it. Check that out. If you're at all interested in this, always reach out. Love to hear from folks. Thanks so much for having me, by the way.

Keith Weinhold 38:50

All right, well, I hope our audience didn't zone out. It's been great. Chat with you. Nolan, thanks so much for coming on to the show. Yeah, a thought provoking discussion with California yimbys Nolan Gray there it's essentially illegal to build affordable housing in a lot of areas with the way that these zoning laws are written, allowing for more dense building that can limit this ugly urban sprawl, and this makes me think about an Instagram account that I follow. It's called how cars ruined our cities, or some names similar to that. It shows, for example, a picture of how a highway interchange in sprawling Houston has an area so large that you could fit an entire Italian town inside of it. And these sprawl problems compound when a lot size must be, say, at least a quarter acre or a half acre. The tide is turning toward allowing more dense building in some places like we touched on, but it's too bad that it took a. Visible housing crisis to make this happen. I mean, visible like more homeless people out on the street. It took that almost for municipalities to start doing something about all of this. Our guest has quite a following on X. Again, you can find his handle there @mnolangray on X and the image on his account cover it shows someone holding up a sign that reads, zoning kills dreams. Hmm, big thanks to the terrific Nolan gray today until next Monday, when I'll be back here to help you actionably build your Real Estate Wealth. I'm Keith Weinhold. Don't quit your Daydream.

Unknown Speaker 40:44

Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for

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Keith Weinhold 41:12

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513: Finding Hidden Opportunities in Beaten-Down Commercial Real Estate with Dolf de Roos
5 aug· Get Rich Education
The King of Commercial Real Estate joins us to discuss office, hotels, apartments, retail, industrial and warehouse real estate.

Many office building values are down 80%+. Is it headed straight to purgatory? According to Moody’s, the national office vacancy rate is 20%.

Offices have the double-whammy of higher interest rates and lower demand.

Learn how feasible office to residential conversions are.

For two years now, momentum has swung from Airbnbs to hotels.

More apartment syndications will blow up from forthcoming interest rate resets.

Commercial real estate often has higher prices than residential. Learn from our guest, Dolf de Roos, on creative ways to make low down payments.

Learn how to vet commercial tenants.

We discuss adding carports to residential RE.

Rich people are often vilified. They’re called “filthy rich” or “stinking rich”.

Resources mentioned:

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www.DolfLive.com

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GRE Investment Coach, start here:

GREmarketplace.com

Get mortgage loans for investment property:

RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

or e-mail: [email protected]

Invest with Freedom Family Investments.

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Complete episode transcript:

Automatically Transcribed With Podsqueeze

Keith Weinhold 00:00:01 Welcome to GRE! I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. There are many commercial real estate sectors. Large apartments, office, hotel, hospitality, retail, warehouse, industrial. Well, what's thriving? What's been beaten up so bad and is never coming back? And what's in a dip that's ripe for opportunity? Also creative deal structuring if you don't have a lot of money. It's the debut of the King of Commercial real estate here today and get rich education. When you want the best real estate and finance info, the modern internet experience limits your free articles access, and it's replete with paywalls. And you've got pop ups and push notifications and cookies. Disclaimers are at no other time in history has it been more vital to place nice, clean, free content into your hands that actually adds no hype value to your life? See, this is the golden age of quality newsletters, and I write every word of ours myself. It's got a dash of humor and it's to the point to get the letter. It couldn't be more simple.

Keith Weinhold 00:01:13 Text gray to 66866. And when you start the free newsletter, you'll also get my one hour fast real estate course completely free. It's called the Don't Quit Your Daydream letter and it wires your mind for wealth. Make sure you read it. Text gray to 66866. Text gray 266866.

Corey Coates 00:01:41 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 00:01:58 What does your read? From Tuscarora, Pennsylvania, to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Whitehill, and you're listening to get Rich education. Today's guest, the king of commercial real estate, is talented, dynamic, global, articulate, has both a wide range of knowledge and an expansive palette of creative strategies in both commercial and residential, where you can buy with little out of pocket. And he's going to share that with us today. That's coming up here shortly. Now, when we think about residential real estate, of course, that is a really wide world in itself.

Keith Weinhold 00:02:38 From condos to single family homes to tiny studio apartments. You could also divide it into short term and mid-term and long term rentals. And then you could also parse it by all of the geographic markets. Well, of course, the commercial real estate world has a ton of segments too, one of which is office, which I want to talk about because it's probably been the most downtrodden and beleaguered since 2020. But there are still some things that are misunderstood within office and even dividing things up that much. Let's take care not to broad brush stroke office real estate itself some smaller segments of office might be in decent shape today. Other office segments are in real trouble. Like we're talking about tall concrete and glass, office towers and a lot of business parks, too. Yeah, business park, sort of a campus like areas, like maybe what the comedy The Office had. He had Dunder Mifflin was in a business park.

Steve Carell 00:03:43 I'm just helping you invest in your future, my friend.

Oscar Nunez 00:03:46 It sounds like a get rich quick scheme.

Steve Carell 00:03:48 Yes. Thank you. You will get rich quick. We all will.

Keith Weinhold 00:03:52 yeah. I guess that's what Steve Carell's character. What Michael Scott from The Office says about prudent investing. Let's talk about office real estate and how that intersects with the housing market. And really a lot of this comes down to the office vacancy rate. Moody's tells us that 1 in 5 office spaces in this economy are empty. And that is the highest ever. And a lot of people think that it's going to go higher right now. Dayton, Ohio is the highest in the nation at 28%. These are office vacancy rates. Charleston, West Virginia's 27. Tulsa, Oklahoma 26. And Houston, Dallas and Austin are all in the top ten for the worst office vacancy rates. Now, a lot of city officials, they want to turn that into housing, and they want government funding in order to make that transition happen from office to residential. This is most attractive to cities if you can partially convert a building to have housing on upper floors, and then you just maintain some offices on lower floors and see that mix right there, that makes for a vibrant, lively downtown community, because that way you don't have downtowns that go quiet at 5:00.

Keith Weinhold 00:05:10 But a lot of these renovations, they just aren't that feasible. They call them ritzy conversions. That's kind of what this is known as. So office to residential. I mean that means you often got to deal with huge floor plates, overhaul mechanical systems, and you've even got to consider things like the fact that windows don't open in office buildings. And they've often got to for resin conversions. Well, with this prolonged high vacancy in offices. Well, where do these people that would have been in offices spend their time instead? Well, of course at home in their residential real estate. And oftentimes it is a one for one. You have one less person occupying an office for lots of that waking day, and that means one more person occupying their home. Well, that's one reason that people are increasingly willing to spend and pay more for homes because they're spending more time than ever there. And ever since the work from home movement and zoom from home movement, if you will, since that became commonplace for urban workers coming off the pandemic, you soon saw the hashtag auto.

Keith Weinhold 00:06:27 The return to office movement that began is where you've got to come into the office 2 to 3 days a week, and then a lot of companies try to ramp it up to 4 to 5 days per week. Some companies even said, yeah, come on in here. You've got to in order to be eligible for promotions. Well, a lot of people don't want to come into the office. We found that out now, especially younger workers. In fact. Did you ever hear of the term coffee bagging? Yes. Some workers are trying to game the system. Coffee bagging. That is the art of returning to the office to a quick hit. Just have a quick hit. You only badge in, get coffee, chat and peace out of there. Well, more people are doing this or they're staying at home than what you're often led to believe. So despite the RTL movement that you hear about the share of employed persons that work their average day from home, last year it rose to 35%, up from 34%, and that's per the BLS.

Keith Weinhold 00:07:31 Well, that's a little interesting to know, but it all comes down to that office vacancy rate, which is, like I said, a stubbornly high all time record 20% nationally, and it could go higher. If you're going to invest in office real estate today, I mean, you've really got to have some insider knowledge and invest smart.

Donald Trump 00:07:55 Did you use the word smart? so you said you went to Delaware State, but you forgot the name of your college. You didn't go to Delaware State. You graduated either the lowest or almost the lowest in your class. Don't ever use the word smart with me. Don't ever use that word. Oh, give me a break. Because you know what? There's nothing smart about you, Joe.

Keith Weinhold 00:08:16 oh, dear. Oh, one of those two men is our current president, and the other could be our next president. Oh, well, love him or hate him, I guess the Trump. Hey, he is the Art of the deal author. And when you think about the Trump name, you should think about seeing those letters on tall office buildings in hotels coming up on the show here in future weeks.

Keith Weinhold 00:08:39 We are stacked with great guests an NFL All-Pro, the president of the Mississippi Institute, the return of the tax free wealth author Tom Wheelwright, and also the incomparable financial firepower of Garrett Gunderson. That's all coming up here in future shows. Let's talk to the king of commercial real estate. This week's guest is a former high tech engineer turned real estate mogul and New York Times best selling author of the book Real Estate Riches. He is globally renowned for his ginormous real estate ventures and his mentorship. But his approach to real estate isn't just transactional, it's about strategic creativity and leveraging property investment for financial independence. Known as the King of commercial real estate. Hey, welcome here for your great debut. Joining us from Malta today. It stopped the roost.

Dolf de Roos 00:09:38 Thank you very much. It's my absolute pleasure to be here.

Keith Weinhold 00:09:41 Oh it's great to finally speak here on the show. And I know that a good segment of our international audience has been anticipating this episode. And often we think about commercial real estate today. Problems come to mind immediately, like the large apartment space with interest rates blowing things up over there, and then the office sector, which just seems to be dying and never coming back.

Keith Weinhold 00:10:03 So first of all, why don't you give us an overview on how various commercial sectors are doing today?

Dolf de Roos 00:10:09 There's always the things that you see on the surface, what you read in the newspapers and what you lead yourself to believe just on the sheer balance of probability. And then there's the reality of what is truly going on. And I'm always amused at the chasm between them. There's a big difference. And in fact, your ability to do well in real estate is largely dependent on the arbitrage between the markets perception of where things are at and the reality. Now, if we all follow the trends, you know, real estate doesn't go up linearly as mathematicians would say. It goes up in fits and starts with each peak a bit higher than the previous peak and each trough a bit higher than the previous trough. But in addition to that, real estate markets always overshoot so that when things are going well, when the public perception is that things are going well, Interest rates are low. There's good capital growth.

Dolf de Roos 00:10:59 People think it's going to go on forever. It will never end and they pay way too much for properties. We have the greater fool theory where no matter how big a fool you are to pay too much for a property, it doesn't matter, because next year they'll be an even bigger fool to pay even more for it. So everyone jumps into the market, overshoots, and then there's a strong correction. A bit like the 2008 GFC. It was on the cards. It was. The writing was on the wall, as they say, and then it corrects. But instead of correcting back to where it should be, it overshoots on the downside as well. And in Phoenix, where I'm based, at one stage we had 90,000 homes into foreclosure simultaneously, and they were selling them on the courthouse steps at the rate of one every 56 seconds for initially 20,020 5000, and people thought, why are these fools buying these properties? The market's crashed. It will never recover. And yet when you live long enough, which unfortunately I have to say, I've done now like I've been around a while, I've seen a few cycles.

Dolf de Roos 00:11:59 No, I'm serious though, Keith, because when you experience your first downturn, you think it's the end of the world. But when you've been through three and you've seen that despite all the bad press and saying it's doomsday to never recover, it not only recovers, but it actually far exceeds where it was before it crashed last time, then you know that the time to take action is when everyone else is panicking. You have to be countercyclical when everyone else is jumping on the bandwagon and paying too much for properties. That's when you should get on a plane and read some good books on a beach somewhere, preferably in a foreign location. Why a foreign location and being disloyal to the home country? Note just explore something. Expand your mind. And you know, I know I'm waving around a bit from topic to topic, but one of the great things about reading books on foreign beaches is that you get to see different ideas of real estate that you can bring back home. So when you bring back these ideas that can help correct the market, then you almost you don't wish for a crash, but you think when it happens, well, there's got to be some good aspect to this and you can actually find some stunning deals from people who are too scared to think it might recover well.

Keith Weinhold 00:13:05 So those places where you might find stunning deals are in some of those commercial real estate sectors that are suffering today. Tell us a bit more about some of those sectors in their health. We're talking about five plus in the department's office, hotel, hospitality, retail, warehouse, industrial. Let us know what's going on with some of those sectors.

Dolf de Roos 00:13:27 In a state of flux. And it's a very good question. Let's talk about hotels for a moment. When the pandemic set in, we were all told to do this thing called to be socially distant. We've almost blissfully forgotten that expression. But social distancing was the thing. So hotels fell out of favor because you're in a foyer with a concierge and a reception area and hundreds of other hotel guests checking in and checking out. So Airbnbs became very popular and the value of hotels plummeted. Many couldn't meet their mortgage obligations because their revenue from room sales did not cover their own loan commitments, so they were being sold off at ridiculously cheap prices. I know of one hotel in the Atlanta area, admittedly a very old hotel.

Dolf de Roos 00:14:09 It was converted into a storage facility. When you think about it, hotels are all compartmentalized and have good little cubicles for story. Yeah, and Airbnbs took off. And we all know people, and people wrote books about it and had courses on it. I know in Phoenix, one statistic in a 12 month period from July 22nd to July 23rd, the availability of Airbnb's went up by 23% and all would have been good and well if demand had kept on escalating. But as the pandemic sort of wound down and people realized they did need to be socially distant anymore. And what's more, when you went to an Airbnb, what you found is that there was a long laundry list of items you had to do, but the sheets through the washing machine no more than one bed at a time. Well, four beds worth of sheets is going to take you three hours and do this and do that. People thought hotels are much easier, so there was a massive swing by tenants of rooms back to hotels, and the value of hotels went back up.

Dolf de Roos 00:15:04 And in the meantime, the value of houses used as Airbnb's, it sort of peaked a bit and it's going down rapidly. How far it will go down? I'm not so sure. So my point is, with hotels in a very short period of time, like three years, the values plummeted and then they came back up again. Office space is suffering a bit of a longer cycle downturn. It's fair to say, I think, that offices are in a very dire straits. Something like $785 billion of mortgages secured against commercial office space that is coming up for renewal, and there's not enough revenue to cover them. There is a pair of hotels on Union Square in San Francisco, for instance, the park Renaissance and the Renaissance itself. They had $745 million of mortgage funding, and the operators of those hotels handed the keys back to the bank and said, we can't make this cash flow. There's a lot of commercial space that is being sold off a ridiculously cheap prices. So there are two ways of looking at this, Keith.

Dolf de Roos 00:16:02 One is if you happen to own office space right now, unless it's boutique space, I've got quite a bit of office space, but it's a very much a boutique classification, and they'll always be demand for boutique office space from unique operators like interior decorators and people like that. But for the general concrete and glass office towers, demand for that has plummeted. The values have gone down and I know of one building in Chicago. It's sold for 315 million. It's on the market at 60 and dropping, and there's not a buyer in sight. And you might say, well, it's got to be a bargain. But no. Here's the challenge. With commercial real estate. Unlike residential, residential is valued on the basis of comps. We all know that if you have a four bedroom, three bathroom home, certain age, certain size, certain condition in a certain suburb, then and if it's sold for, say, $480,000, then a similar sized and aged house up the road, down the street around the corner is going to sell for about the same amount.

Dolf de Roos 00:17:02 Whether it's tenanted or not, that doesn't even matter. But when it comes to commercial real estate, the value of a commercial property is literally a multiple of its rental income. Technically, is the rental income divided by the cap rate? Which cap rate is short for capitalization rate? It literally means the rate at which you capitalize the rental to arrive at the value. So if we can figure out a way of doubling the rental, then we've doubled the value. And by the same token, of course, if you lose the tenant and you have your rental, then you have the value. And that's why the value of so many of these commercial office buildings has plummeted, because there are no tenants for them.

Keith Weinhold 00:17:40 Yeah, well, there's a lot there. And back to the Airbnb thing. Yeah. About two years ago, there seemed to be this well well-documented Airbnb bust. And my gosh, I personally had awful Airbnb experiences recently, including checking into an Airbnb where it hadn't been turned over, it hadn't been cleaned yet, and that I can never unsee what I saw.

Keith Weinhold 00:18:00 Then I had to stay there. That was really rough. I think what you're getting at here is once you hit a bottom, that's where the opportunity is. So there are going to be some of those opportunities somewhere in the commercial real estate sector, commercial real estate syndicators, many of them imploded from high rates. So when we talk about finding the bottom link with these large apartment buildings, how many more apartment syndicator implosions do we expect from the higher mortgage rates?

Dolf de Roos 00:18:27 Many. I'm indifferent to it. I'm not saying I don't have sympathy for the people who own them, and I'm not gleeful for those who buy a bargain. But here's why I'm indifferent. I think it's fair to say that I've made most of my money in real estate by finding either vacant or semi vacant buildings, and that goes against the grain. Most people think they need to look for a building with a good tenant, because it's the tenant that pays the rent, and that's not incorrect. That's accurate. And then if you've got a building that you buy and say 8% return and your mortgage interest is 7%, hopefully that 1% margin covers your property taxes and your insurance and your maintenance.

Dolf de Roos 00:19:05 And then you just wait for time to do this thing where slowly, over time, the rents creep up and the property value creeps up. I don't have the luxury of waiting that long, and I never had the cash to buy properties like that, so I literally sought out semi vacant or even vacant buildings. Now, I didn't buy them because if I bought a vacant building, I still have to pay property tax and insurance. But what I would do before buying it is see if I can find a tenant, and I can give you a specific example. I came across a vacant building that was a funeral parlor, and most people don't like to think of what goes on in a funeral parlor. But they have these stainless steel trays where they put the product of their business on, and they insert these hollow stainless steel tubes and suck up the blood and replace it with formaldehyde and all kinds of things we don't want to think about.

Keith Weinhold 00:19:52 That's even worse than my Airbnb experience.

Dolf de Roos 00:19:55 No one knew what to do with it.

Dolf de Roos 00:19:57 So I found it. And it was being sold for a song because it was vacant. And what I did is I employed someone at the then going hourly rate of $8 an hour to phone every funeral director, going further and further from this place until she found someone who said, oh my gosh, I've always wanted to operate there. And I was just open and honest. And I said, well, there's a funeral parlour premise for sale. Go and check it out if you want to buy it, buy it. Why would I offer it to him, Keith, when I really wanted to buy it? Because the last thing I want is a tenant to be gracious. The fact that the only reason he's paying me rent is that I'd beat him to it. But I knew that in all probability, he didn't want to buy real estate. That's not his gig. And he said, no, I don't have the money or the inclination he had to look at. He said, listen, I love it.

Dolf de Roos 00:20:40 I want to operate there. What would it take? And I said, well, if you're willing to sign up a heads of agreement, an alloy, we're subject to me buying it. You will become the tenant, then I'll have a crack at buying it. And his response was, were not so fast, I need you. I'll only do it if you give me a long term lease. Well, that's exactly what I want. So I'd found a tenant by adding the tenant to this otherwise vacant building. The value of it doubled. And when I went to the bank to apply for a mortgage, they said, well, we're only going to give you 50%. Well, guess what? 50% of double the value was the purchase price. They lent me all but the last $10,000 to buy that property. So the magic sauce here is finding the tenant. Could anyone else have gone through at the time? This is before the internet, the Yellow pages and phoned every funeral director going for. Of course they could, but no one thought of doing it.

Dolf de Roos 00:21:33 And that comes to part of what you had in your title, that this is all about creative real estate. The thing I love about real estate is it's about the only investment vehicle where you can actually use your creativity. I mean, if you're a really creative person and you buy a portfolio of stock, IBM stock and Microsoft and biotech, what.

Keith Weinhold 00:21:53 Can you do to improve it?

Dolf de Roos 00:21:54 Can you deploy your creativity? How can you deploy what you've seen in your travels to make your stock portfolio worth more? Zero. Absolutely nothing. Not with stocks, not with bonds, not with futures. Options, certificates of deposit, Treasury bills, nothing. But with real estate, the sky's the limit, I love that.

Keith Weinhold 00:22:13 Well, you talked about getting into commercial real estate sectors with little or none of your own money. That's part of the creativity. A lot of our audience is interested in investing in residential property, a single family home. You might still be able to get one for 150 K now, 20 to 25% down payment on that 30 K plus.

Keith Weinhold 00:22:34 I mean, that's still pretty manageable for a lot of people, but many are somewhat intimidated by commercial real estate. I think one of the first things they think about is how do I come up with the money? So we talk about creativity in funding that down payment. Tell us more about some good strategies for doing that, and kind of overcoming that daunting feeling of higher commercial real estate prices.

Dolf de Roos 00:22:52 You're absolutely right. Most people think commercial real estate is more expensive, where you might be able to buy a home in a cheaper market, a cheaper price point at one 20,000, say the commercial property is going to be half a million, or if homes are $1 million and a fancy suburb and the commercial properties at 3 million. That's true, but not all properties are like that. My smallest commercial building was a little corner shop. It was a wet fish supply shop, so they sold fish but not cooked fish. And it was a horrible looking thing. But I paid all of $79,000 for it and it's been rented on a full commercial lease from the day I bought it, so it needn't be liked.

Dolf de Roos 00:23:31 In fact, we tend to only notice the big ones for the For Sale sign. You're in the downtown of some city and you see a big one of the big firms, CB Richard Ellis or Jones Lang LaSalle or something for lease or for sale sign, that's for sure. And you don't tend to notice the small ones. The trick in finding good value real estate. Be it commercial or residential, again, has to do with the fact that it's not an automated market like the stock market. You buy stocks through computers on a share market. Everyone pays the same price. But when it comes to real estate, the seller may choose to go through a real estate agency. It might be a national one, and then it's vetted by many agents. But we have a thing known as fizzbuzz or for sale by owner. And why would a seller choose to circumvent a real estate agent? Well, probably because he's hoping to save on the 6% commission. By the way, that's the highest in the world.

Dolf de Roos 00:24:21 And the rest of the orders? 2 or 1 and a half or 3%, it soon to be lowered in the States. But even so, they want to save on that commission and more sinisterly. Perhaps some of them think, why should I entrust my property, the sale of my property to some snooty, nosed 22 year old kid just out of school who doesn't even live in the suburb. I have lived here for 59 years or whatever, he says. And I know what it's worth. And in pricing it, he's either way too high or way too low. Now, if he's way too high, you and I aren't going to buy it because it's just way too high. We know that. But what if it's 100,000 below market value? It happens every day of the week, and if we stumble across one of those, then we might just make 100,000 that day. Not in terms of cash, not in terms of folding hard cash, but in terms of equity. And we could sell it the next day for a hundred thousand more.

Dolf de Roos 00:25:08 But we don't because we want to invest in it. And these things are real key. These happen. That's why I encourage people don't take the same route home from work every day. If you've finished work, get in your car, take a different route, keep your eyes peeled, look for visible signs of a sale by owner, or look for abandoned properties, ones where the grass is a bit high in this litter blown up against the fence and the windows are a bit grimy, and then do some research to find out who owns it.

Keith Weinhold 00:25:34 Sometimes the greater the crisis, the greater the opportunity. But often we talk about, say, if one has overcome the money in the down payment thing, you know, in effect, when we go ahead and get a loan, whatever sector we're investing in, the bank underwrites either us or the bank underwrites the property. But in a sense, us as the investor is we're sort of underwriting the tenant that's in there. Now, when we buy a residential building, you know, we can look at the tennis credit scores and their work history.

Keith Weinhold 00:26:00 You know, we know that the residential tenant is going to pay us to live there. We have a good sense of faith about that. But when it comes to commercial real estate investing, say, I want to buy a plaza with eight businesses in it. I think a lot of investors feel overwhelmed because they're like, oh my gosh, like, how do I study the validity of these eight businesses? And how do I know that they're going to be solvent and sustainable going forward? And do I need to understand all this, or can you speak to that and help break that down for us a bit? Basically the investor underwriting the tenant.

Dolf de Roos 00:26:31 That's all true. And yet there isn't that much to learn. Because if we take your imaginary shopping plaza with eight tenants. Yeah, I think we'd all agree that if one of those tenants was a Gloria Bean coffee and tea or whatever it's called, or Seattle's Best or Peet's Coffee, not to mention Starbucks, that's a global change, but one of those lesser brands.

Dolf de Roos 00:26:51 I think we would be pretty comfortable that they can pay the rent every month. And similarly, the bank underwriting that loan was like, well, a Peet's Coffee or Gloria, that they're a good tenant And, you know, just to name others at random rosters for less, that's a nationwide chain store. I think if we had them as a tenant, that would all go well. And you might get a couple of independents, but they would have a track record. They've leased those same premises for the previous eight years, and they moved there from other premises, which ended up being too small for them. That means they're expanding where they were for 12 years, things like that. Give a picture to any novice in this game to say, wow, they're probably going to be here for the long haul. And beyond that, what happens when you develop the skills to attract new tenants? You don't worry about that even because you know that when you lose a tenant, it's easy to get one lesson.

Dolf de Roos 00:27:42 I've got 101 ways of getting tenants for buildings, and I'm blown away that people don't deploy even one of them. And I'll give you an example from last week. I was with a client in the UK in Bournemouth, which is way in the south of the country, and we were looking at a commercial office building there and it had been vacant for 18 months. And I said to the agent what seems to be the trouble with getting a tenant? And he shrugged his shoulders and said, well, I don't know. It's been on the market for 18 months. And I said, has it ever occurred to you to put a sign outside the property? A big canvas sign hanging on the side of the building signs, and the grass verge saying, this building is for lease. Enquire within or go to this website. And he was stupefied by that thought. He said, what an amazingly good idea. You have to let people know. They think that they're going to go to their office because they're looking for office space.

Dolf de Roos 00:28:34 So now, would they be guaranteed to get a tenant within a week by putting a canvas sign on the building? Of course not. But I know we won't reduce the chances. And that's why if I can find a tenant before committing to buy the building, I'm pretty confident we'll get there. And I've got all these other techniques, Keith, of doing it like one that I really love is, let's say you've got a vacant warehouse and it's an ugly, horrible warehouse in a sea of similarly ugly and vacant warehouses. If you and I bought that, I would hesitate to suggest that we would have a tenant within a month. And here's how we'd do it. We would spend no more than $10,000, and we would go to the manager's office, because ultimately, the person who decides whether to lease our warehouse as opposed to another one, is not the CEO and the head office in New York or LA or wherever. It's not the cleaning lady or man who's going to sweep the floor. It's going to be the manager is going to manage it.

Dolf de Roos 00:29:28 So I get rid of the linoleum and I put in commercial grade carpet. I put in triple glazed or dual glazed windows. Keeps the noise out and the warmth in. I replace the fluorescent tubes with LED lights and replace the locks with electronic locks so he can never forget his keys. I put on an 80 inch LCD screen and tell him it's good for corporate training videos. We know he's never going to watch corporate training videos on it, but those TVs you can buy for $500 now, I put on a little coffee machine and make sure it's brewing when it looks, and have a fridge for end of week drinks, celebrations, and our unsuspecting manager, who's looked at seven ugly warehouses so far that day when he comes to our ugly warehouse and he opens that door to the manager's office subconsciously, or maybe consciously, he thinks, oh my gosh, if I lease this one, this is where I'm going to be packed for 40 hours a week for Lord knows how many years. He says I'll take it.

Dolf de Roos 00:30:17 And he hasn't even asked the rental. You might say that's bribery and corruption, but I think it's just offering a better product than the competition. No one else does this.

Keith Weinhold 00:30:27 Oh well. This is another brilliant example of using creativity in real estate investing. We're talking with the king of commercial real estate, Dolph Thomas More. We come back including some of his psychology and insights from the rich. This is general education. I'm your host, Keith Whitehall. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge Lending Group Nmls 42056. They provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation. Because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire. With leverage, you can start your prequalification and chat with President Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge Lending group.com. That's Ridge Lending group.com. And your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings.

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Keith Weinhold 00:32:55 I'm your host, Keith Whitehall. We're at the king of commercial real estate, Dolph Durst. Just like he has a lot of creative, proven types of things that you can do to improve commercial real estate. He also has a lot of those ideas for residential because he's been around the game for so long. So tell us about some more of those creative ways to add value to residential real estate.

Dolf de Roos 00:33:17 Well, probably. Like most people who end up focusing on commercial real estate, I got started in residential and that's where I first deployed some of my creativity. And I noticed, for instance, that I'd have a rental property that had no garage and no carport. And when you think about it, a tenant's biggest asset because it's not their home, it tends to be their car. One could argue that because they waste money on expensive cars every two years, that's why they can't afford to buy a home. But we won't go there. So if it's their car, if there's no carport and no garage, that means their biggest asset is in the rain.

Dolf de Roos 00:33:49 The sleet, the sun, the shine, the hail, you name it. So by building a carport, we can protect their biggest asset and it's worth a lot more to them by any means. If you have a carport on a house, that house will rent for about $80 a month extra. An 80 a month times 12 is 960. Call it $1,000 extra, a rent in a year. And Keith, I can build a carport for $1,000 easily. It's simply for one in each corner and then a roof with a bit of a slope. Why the slope? Well, if it rains, the rain falls off. If you're really cheap, you can get away with three posts. It still stands, you know. But no. And I'm being silly, but we sometimes make them with two posts and cantilever them. They're a bit more expensive, but then there are no posts out front so I can build a carport for $1,000, and then I get $1,000 extra a year coming in. And when you think about it again, which other investment can you think of that once you've consummated the deal, once you own it, you can spend an extra thousand dollars and then get 100% return on that money.

Dolf de Roos 00:34:49 And as they say in the infomercials. But wait, it gets even better. Because think about it. Let's say we have that carport built, but we haven't paid for it yet. And so we've got our thousand dollars a year extra of rental coming in. We go back to the appraiser and say, we want a new appraisal With an extra $1,000 coming in, he's likely to appraise it at $10,000 more. With that increased appraisal of 10,000, we go back to the bank and say, Mr. Bank manager, remember I got a 70 or 80% more. I've got now got an appraisal for 10,000 more. Will you give me a modest 70% loan on that? Well, banks are in the game of lending money and making a profit. So they say yes. So you get 7000 from the bank. Let's use 1000 of that 7000 to pay for the carport. It's now paid for. That leaves us with $6,000 cash. And the question is, is it earned income? And the answer is no, it's not earned income.

Dolf de Roos 00:35:42 There's no income tax on it. Is that the sale of something? Nope. Didn't sell it. No sales tax, no capital gains. It's tax free money. And you might say but hang on, you've now borrowed $7,000 that you have to be interested. Even at a ridiculously high 10%, that would only cost 700 a year. But we're collecting an extra thousand a year. So when you build this carport, you have two choices. One is pay cash for it and get 100% return on your money. Or the second one is don't pay any money for it, but $6,000 of tax free money in your pocket and get $300 a year surplus cash flow index for inflation for the rest of your life. Like, why would you not do that?

Keith Weinhold 00:36:25 Well, and it's a terrific example of how to accidentally improve the property. And it's so interesting that you bring this up, Dolph, because just a few weeks ago here on the show, I talked about garage real estate. I mentioned how adding a carport can often be more cost effective for a landlord from an ROI standpoint, than constructing a garage.

Keith Weinhold 00:36:43 I also talked about the future with autonomous cars. If people are going to need garages as much as they will, but that's into the future, and that's another subject in itself. All for one really important thing. I know that probably even more important than the actual investing is getting people in the right mindset to do this in the first place. You've studied this in really unexpected psychology behind wealth creation. I think a lot of it is counterintuitive, but it kind of makes sense because if you come from a scarcity and conventional mindset and you just do mediocre stuff, you're only going to get a mediocre outcome. So why don't you talk to us more about breaking down that psychology that most Americans and most residents of everywhere in the world really struggle with?

Dolf de Roos 00:37:28 Well, my pleasure. I had been teaching real estate for about 15 years and I decided why? I don't know, but I decided to run a survey to find out how many of my students became a millionaire within 18 months. That was my expected time frame of reasonableness.

Keith Weinhold 00:37:43 Is that I was actually wealthy.

Dolf de Roos 00:37:45 Right? And I was pretty confident. But when the results came in, I was devastated because it was fewer than 4%. And in my mind, 4% wasn't even statistically significant. Meaning if you take a thousand people, a random 4% are going to become millionaires. One's going to marry into money, one's going to win the lottery, one's going to win at a casino, and the fourth one's going to fall over a paper bag and looks inside. And we just believe that there's a million bucks there. So I vowed to stop teaching until I'd cracked the nut, because my dilemma was, how is it that when you give people all the tools you think they need to become fabulously wealthy, they still don't do it right? And what I found is that it had nothing to do with my rate of speech or my accent. Not that I have one, of course, or the content of my information or the sequencing of it. It had everything to do with the subconscious mind of the student, the fear.

Dolf de Roos 00:38:38 And he has that stance. You're a young kid and you say, hey, mom or dad, I want a bicycle. And they say, well, what do you think, kiddo? That money grows on trees and I know where the parents coming from. Hey, money's not that easy to come by. Temper your expectations of what you'll get for your bet. But this kid is. Our money doesn't grow on trees. Meaning money's hard to come by. And how often have we been told money can't buy you happiness. And money is the root of all evil. And when I say that, someone always points out no, the full saying in the Bible is for the love of money is the root of all evil. There's a big difference. And I'll say, yes, there is a big difference. But to the subconscious mind, it's still here's money and evil in the same sentence, and it's unconsciously makes that association. And the religious even say that it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven.

Dolf de Roos 00:39:24 In other words, if you're rich, you're condemned to hell. And that's a nice, strong belief system to take on board, even subconsciously. And by the way, most people don't know what the eye of the needle is. The eye of the needle was the entrance to East Jerusalem and even camels. And I've been there. I've said the camel said to get down on their knees as a sign of respect before they could enter. So there's a reason behind all these things, but the subconscious mind takes aboard. Money can buy you happiness. Money's hard to come by if you work hard for it. You don't deserve that money's root of lever. You won't get to heaven. You condemned to hell. And how do we describe the rich kids? We say they are so rich. That filthy rich. They're so rich. That stinking rich we associate being rich with filth and stench. So that is why in the United States and every Western nation, when someone wins the lottery and we no longer win 10 or $20,000, it's 300 million or 800 million or 1.2 billion when people win the lottery within five years of winning, 80% of the winners are back to where they were before they won.

Dolf de Roos 00:40:25 Right? And why is that? I discovered that it's because subconsciously, even though they're happy they won it and they going to tell their boss they're going to quit and they're going to buy their parents a nice home and they're going to get a new car. But subconsciously they feel they don't deserve it because they haven't worked hard for it. They're not going to be happy. They're now evil people. They're not going to go to heaven, and they're filthy and they stink. And the only way to overcome that is to get rid of the source of the problem, which is the money. And you'll see it happen again and again and again. So what we do is we dissolve what's in the subconscious mind, all these things that we've been saying without realizing it over and over and over again and replace them with more empowering beliefs. And the great thing about the subconscious mind is, initially, you don't even have to believe the thing that you're going to say over and over again to replace those old ones, but it could be something as simple as money is good or a bit more sophisticated.

Dolf de Roos 00:41:18 My poverty helps no one, but my wealth can help a lot of people.

Keith Weinhold 00:41:22 The more you have, the more you can give.

Dolf de Roos 00:41:24 Exactly as the reverend says, I'm a magnet for money. And so when we get into this mode of thinking differently, then all of a sudden people find that the money starts flowing and we give people specific exercises to do. And it's you think by how is that going to make difference? But it does. And so what I found when I introduced these concepts into my real estate teaching, the success went from under 4% to over 80%. And if that's not evidence enough that this works, I don't know what is.

Keith Weinhold 00:41:56 Yes, it really takes changing that mindset to break down these old stereotypes and have the confidence to say and act upon things like financially free beats debt free. But if you raise to think that money is a scarce resource, you think that retiring debt is a good thing, or don't focus on getting your money to work for you. Focus on getting other people's money to work for you.

Keith Weinhold 00:42:17 A lot of people don't even know what that means. But yeah, it takes breaking down some of these simple things that we all began to learn when we were age five or something like that. Golf is we're winding down here. You operate globally. You play globally. That intimidates a lot of people. They don't really know how to do that. But it's giving you this wherewithal to say that real estate is the only profession that can truly be played globally. Tell us about that.

Dolf de Roos 00:42:44 Well, when you think about it, if you study to become, say, an attorney, you can't just up and leave the US and go to Germany or Peru or Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia to practice, you've got to study their local laws and set the bar exam. If you're a physician, you can't just go to another country and conduct frontal lobotomies on patients. You've got to study and hit the bar exam. I had a friend who was a dermatologist, a skin doctor from Austria. He moved to Australia after eight years of study to get his qualifications.

Dolf de Roos 00:43:13 They wouldn't accept them here to start all over again. And he said that's ridiculous. And he became a farmer and was very happy doing that. But when you think about it, not only our real estate investors welcomed all over the world, but they think that you're going to bring money with you. You don't have to, of course. In fact, if you're going to invest as a US citizen in another country, I would not recommend bringing U.S. dollars with you. I'd recommend borrowing locally, because if you bring U.S. dollars with you, then you're subject to exchange rate fluctuations. So just borrow locally and then you've got no risk from that at all. But despite the fact that the other countries, the host countries think that you're an investor, you're going to bring money. So they welcome you with open arms. I think it's the only profession where you are never discriminated against. Your welcomed. You're made to feel welcome. They want more of you. They encourage you to come with delegations of other investors.

Dolf de Roos 00:44:05 It's kind of good gig to be on.

Keith Weinhold 00:44:08 Make the World Yours. The UN recognizes 193 world nations. Get out and see them and invest outside your own home country if you have the ability to. Well, Duff, you've got this interesting combination of commercial real estate focus, a great grasp of the mindset and how to help people with the wealth mindset. And then thirdly, you also operate globally. So it's been really interesting to speak with you. You help people in so many ways with a lot of your teaching resources. So why don't you let our audience know how they can engage with that?

Dolf de Roos 00:44:41 We have a lot of programs that we run from time to time. I mentioned I saw a client in the UK. He was an example of someone we did a fly out for. I'd spend three days just with that one client to help him with his portfolio. But the thing I've got coming up is a live training and people can get a free seat to attend and learn more at my website called Dolf Live.

Dolf de Roos 00:45:03 So Dorfman and Dolf and then live Live.com golf Dolph Live.com. You can see what we've got coming up there. It's entirely free to attend. And then, you know, once that event's gone, I'm sure we'll post other things there, but that's the best way of staying informed with what I've got going. Part of my passion, Keith, is sharing it. You know, it's pretty boring doing it on your own. And one of the biggest thrills I get is when you get feedback by email or however, from someone who said, well, when I heard this or saw that or read this, I wasn't even sure if it would work and I certainly wasn't sure if it would work for me. But look at what I've done since then, and that gives you a feeling that you can't describe in words. That's pretty cool. You change someone's life and you don't even really know who they are, then that's kind of that's fun stuff.

Keith Weinhold 00:45:48 The ruse has been helpful to me in our audience today. The King of Commercial Real Estate, thanks so much for coming on to the show.

Dolf de Roos 00:45:55 Hey, thank you so much for the opportunity. I really enjoyed it.

Keith Weinhold 00:46:04 Check out Dolph Live.com. It looks like he's got a live event coming up this Thursday night, and if you missed that more afterward, like I was saying earlier, a ton of great episodes coming up here on the get Rich education podcast, just stacked. As always, you'll get lessons from me when I'm going to break down. Is any debt worth paying off? Which debts are which are not and why? That's going to help you know what to do with every debt for the rest of your life. And that's besides what I mentioned earlier, both new guests and very popular returning guests. I hope that you learned something today. I'll run it back next week when we meet again. Until then, I'm your host, Keith Weintraub. Don't quit your daydream.

Speaker 8 00:46:54 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own.

Speaker 8 00:47:05 Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss the host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 00:47:22 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get Rich education.com.
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512: Rent Control is a Bad Plan, Own Land in a New Micronation with Liberland President Vit Jedlicka
29 jul· Get Rich Education
Wealthy business owners and landlords are vilified. Yet, wealthy actors, athletes, and singers are praised.

This makes zero sense.

Businesses and landlords provide essential services; entertainers don’t.

The White House recently published a “rent control light” plan. It’s a bad idea and has almost zero chance of passing a divided Congress. I critique it.

Hear my in-person sit-down interview the Liberland President, Vit Jedlicka. Liberland is a micronation in Eastern Europe, between Serbia and Croatia.

It calls itself: “The freest sovereign state in the world, powered by the blockchain.”

Learn about Liberland’s: reason for existing, population, infrastructure, real estate, currency, geography, language, culture, problems, and more. You can purchase merits and become a citizen at Liberland.org.

Resources mentioned:

Learn more about the freest nation in the world, Liberland:

Liberland.org

For access to properties or free help with a

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GREmarketplace.com

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RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

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Complete episode transcript:

Keith Weinhold 00:00:01 Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Why do people vilify wealthy business owners and landlords but praise wealthy actors and athletes? Rent control plans must be killed where the real opportunity is in today's real estate market. Then my in-person sit down interview with the president of the micro nation of Levelland today and get rich education.

Robert Syslo 00:00:27 Since 2014, the powerful Get Rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate, investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show host Keith Reinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad Advisors, and delivers a new show every week. Since 2014, there's been millions of listeners downloads and 188 world nations. He has A-list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get Rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus has had its own dedicated Apple and Android listener. Phone apps build wealth on the go with the get Rich education podcast.

Robert Syslo 00:01:05 Sign up now for the get Rich education podcast or visit get Rich education.com.

Corey Coates 00:01:13 You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold 00:01:29 Welcome to Greece. From Dubrovnik, Croatia, to Dublin, Ohio, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold than you are inside episode 512 of get Rich education. You can set up your life so that you stop using your time to make money. Use the bank's money to make money. People come from scarcity families, just like I did with a scarcity mindset to think all debt is bad. Hang off debt won't make you wealthy. You don't build wealth. So by the time you reach age 62, you think, hey, I just paid off my last debt and now I can retire. It doesn't work that way. Well, why couldn't you retire sooner? Sheesh. So what do people mistakenly do? They end up working their whole life for people that have debt. Successful business owners and real estate investors carry debt.

Keith Weinhold 00:02:29 That's how they can own so much productivity and so many assets. And you know what's interesting here? Business owners and real estate moguls, they're the ones that often seem to be vilified, criticized, ridiculed for obtaining wealth when they took risks, took out loans and provided jobs or housing for others, yet Yet at the same time, somehow actors, athletes and singers are all praised for obtaining wealth as a performing artist. That makes zero sense. Why would you criticize a successful business owner like Amazon founder Jeff Bezos? Bezos probably made your life distinctly better by offering you convenient shopping for anything. Protein bars with a few clicks, free shipping, and pioneering drone delivery. A landlord is often vilified. Most landlords are mom and pop types that aren't even that wealthy. But even if they were, as long as they're not a slumlord, I mean, they took on risk debt, operating expenses, and being on call 24 over seven in order to provide others with housing. So with Bezos types and landlords, we're talking about taking risk to provide society with essentials like food and housing.

Keith Weinhold 00:03:58 And while the business owners get vilified baselessly performing artists like actors, athletes and singers do not. Yet they merely provide entertainment to society. Now I like entertainment and I follow sports to the NFL. Major League Baseball, the NBA. But their services are not essential. Take a movie actor. They get paid well for pretending to be somebody else. Consider how absurd that sounds. And yet they're praised for obtaining wealth from doing that. So this is really backwards. And, you know, I think that a lot of this resentment for business owners is that you can't really see what they do for you. Like, you can a performer that's on the front stage, like Beyonce or Lizzo or Taylor Swift, Business owners, real estate investors, they're on the back stage. And what an entertainer does front stage that is highly visible. I mean, that's my best guess about why this is. And a lot of the time it just comes back to these primordial human emotions like resentment and jealousy and envy. There is no reason to criticize the rich just solely for being wealthy Because deep down, it's all where we want to be.

Keith Weinhold 00:05:21 Anyway, how is Bezos bad and Lizzo good? I don't get it, but it's been that way for a while now. When you look at surveys of institutions that are most trusted over time, and it's been pretty much the same these past few decades, what's at the top of the polls are small businesses. People say that they're trusting of small businesses in your rental property. Business surely counts here. Small businesses trusted more than institutions like the media or politicians. So I encourage you on social media and wherever else to support small businesses. And it's kind of funny how friends they often might not put a like on your small business, though they say that they trust them and that they resent large businesses, you know? Then that friend turns right around and supports Apple, Coca-Cola, and Starbucks. people say they trust small business, but so often then they go patronize large businesses. Nothing wrong with patronizing large businesses, but you're just not doing what you're saying. So my point is, don't resent anyone just for financial success and consider outwardly supporting small businesses.

Keith Weinhold 00:06:40 If you indeed put a lot of trust in them yourself, just like much of America says that they do. Now, is there a movement afoot to disenfranchise big wealthy business owners or big landlords. I mean, we're talking about these very people that are resented. Well, one way is with rent control, that is capping the amount of rent that landlords can charge. Now, since Covid hit in March of 2020. Apartment rents are up 18% and single family rents are up 25%. Okay. Those are cumulative figures over this four plus year stretch. And that's actually not that much. It's about 5% a year. And now sure, political news has been like galactic big this month with the Trump shooting and the Biden drop out and the Kamala Harris endorsement as a Democratic frontrunner. And we rarely talk politics here for a few reasons. Number one, it's divisive. People lose their minds. Secondly, speculation is cheap. So much of politics is speculating on what might happen in the future. Well, there's one known here.

Keith Weinhold 00:08:01 Whether you like it or not, expect six more months of President Biden. And thirdly, politics is overblown. Its importance is inflated. A president rarely changes your life. But the good news in this is that you can your autonomy, your freedom, your decisions. You can change your life. So to put the politics aside, let's stick to a one issue subject. The white House revealed published what I call a rent control lite plan earlier this month. And to give some credit first, this the same plan it also repurposes publicly and to build more affordable housing. I sent you a link to the whole thing in our newsletter last week. Well, this rent control lite thing has almost zero chance of becoming law. VP Kamala Harris endorsed it on ex. President Trump would kill it even if it's revived under the next president. It has no realistic shot of passing a divided Congress. But let's look at this anyway. What was proposed is that if a property owner increases rent more than 5% annually, it would reduce tax incentives for large landlords.

Keith Weinhold 00:09:23 I'll tell you what large landlords are in a moment. Now, you could still increase rent by more than 5%. It would just reduce the federal tax breaks and it would have lasted for only two years. And the reason the white House put this proposal together for just two years is as a bridge to a time when more homes are expected to be built. I mean, that's the real intent here. And importantly, this all would have only applied to owners of 50 plus units. So that's mostly for apartment owners. Single family rental owners would be largely untouched, but consider how apartment owners could have lost their accelerated depreciation benefit, also known as their cost segregation. And note that I'm already talking about this rent control light proposal in the past tense, not the present tense, because this whole thing, it's just a bunch of virtue signaling to try to show that something is being done to rein in housing inflation. Well, this is really odd and awkward since the inflation came from the government in the first place.

Keith Weinhold 00:10:30 I mean, sheesh, this is like shooting someone in the foot and then trying to get praise for bandaging the victim that you just shot. Well, the federal government, they just don't do rent control on this level at all. They haven't. In fact, the feds haven't regulated rents on private buildings since World War two. So this really isn't a thing, but it just brings to light that rent control is a bad idea. It puts a cap on risk. Time after time after time. History shows us that it makes developers stop building. Now, the white House plan did have a carve out for new builds. Also, what this does is that landlords have no incentive to improve property. That's why it reduces housing supply, which is already low, and it creates long term dilapidated living conditions, like I touched on here just a couple episodes ago. But how weird to even make such an ill advised proposal. I mean, look, if government puts a price cap of $2 on a gallon of milk, then dairies will stop producing milk.

Keith Weinhold 00:11:41 Milk shelves are going to be empty. It's like in communist countries. This is why you saw photos of bread lines. When there are price controls, then manufacturers don't produce. And just the same, landlords would stop providing housing. If I didn't put a fine enough point on this yet. President Obama's top economist, Jason Furman. He probably said it best in the Washington Post. Furman says, quote, rent control has been about as disgraced as any economic policy in the toolkit. The idea that we'd be reviving and expanding it will ultimately make our housing supply problems worse, not better. End quote from President Obama's top economist 94% of economists agreed that rent control reduces quality and quantity of housing available. It is the most effective way to destroy a city. Aside from bombing it, what an ill conceived plan to regulate rents. That's rent control, but the most dangerous drinking game of 2024 that is still sipping at every mention of the interest rate lock in effect on a real estate or economics podcast. Though it's been two plus years since they made their dramatic rise.

Keith Weinhold 00:13:05 Many are still transfixed on mortgage rates. They recently hit a five month low below 7%, and a lot of people still expect mortgage rates to fall between today and next year, since inflation has now plunged from a high of 9.1% two years ago, down to 3% now, the Federal Reserve has held rates steady for more than a year now, and most don't expect any change either when they meet in two days. But be ready. Be prepared when mortgage rates fall substantially. Millions more buyers will qualify to buy a home, and this could substantially stoke housing demand and lift housing prices further. Now last week on the show, you heard gray investment coach narration. I discuss Libre land libre, land libre land. Earlier this month, I visited the exhibit hall at an event called FreedomFest. I saw the library and booth and I recognized their name, and I congratulated the people there in the booth. On that, the fact that I have heard of Liberland before, that's somewhat of a compliment to them. It shows me that they're doing something right, liberal, and is a small piece of land between Serbia and Croatia in Eastern Europe, and it apparently hasn't been claimed by any other nation for decades.

Keith Weinhold 00:14:32 The name Liberland, and I think it's easy to remember because it sounds like liberty. So that's how you pronounce it. Well, I got to talking to some of their representatives at the exhibit hall. They're all smart people, but there was no one person that had all the answers I was looking for. So I requested to speak with the president of Liberland. And about two hours later we made that happen. So today, shortly you will hear Liberland President Vit Jedlicka and I together. Now, the United Nations doesn't yet recognize Libya and all. Ask the president if other nations recognize it. Wikipedia calls liberal and a micro nation. It is seven square kilometers. That's almost three square miles. It's mostly forested. I don't believe there are any mountains there that I can see in the photos. It has Danube river frontage and just a few people there. The Danube river frontage is key because it contains an island that belongs to Leon, and also the Danube is key because it also connects to the Black Sea.

Keith Weinhold 00:15:40 And we'll see if it can be a tax free haven, which is apparently the intent. You might be able to see this working when you compare it to micro nations like Monaco and Liechtenstein. Some journalists have been skeptical about libre land. You'll see how I approach it with the president shortly. He champions laissez faire capitalism. Laissez faire means a minimal government. They're also making the new nation's laws transparent on the blockchain and an economy based on cryptocurrency. As for liberalized population, by March of this year, liberalism had 1200 registered citizens who had paid up to $10,000 for labor and passports, but fewer actually living in the nation now, working on it and building it. Neighbouring Croatia has at times been hostile and blocked off access to libre land. These past few years, you will hear some background noise in President Witte and his upcoming interview. So I ask for your attention and patience there and for all. We are in an exhibit hall at a conference. I'll just call him whit in the interview. And what does his day to day look like? He travels globally a lot, often trying to get into international diplomatic and friendship agreements.

Keith Weinhold 00:17:01 But how do you just adopt statehood out of nothing? That's what's interesting here. Now, when he describes libre land to me, you can't see it here in the audio only. But he often points to Liberty Island, an island on the Danube river that's part of Liberty. And does having a free nation mean that you have the freedom to do whatever you want on your land, or they're soon going to be hos there? I'll ask him that very question, literally. President and I coming up here shortly. First, as for more, I suppose, a familiar land here in the US. You can't make any money from the rental property that you don't own. We are here to help get you started being profitable that way. And it's free. Get some of those. Real estate pays five ways properties. Then we have access to a good number of them here at great a good variety, different property types, different geographies. But at times I'm asked where is the real estate opportunity today in this real estate market, with higher prices, higher rents normalize interest rates, higher operating expenses and low housing supply? Really the opportunity is in affordable housing.

Keith Weinhold 00:18:25 If I could just put two words to it. That's the short answer of affordable housing. Like I often say, provide housing that's clean, safe, affordable and functional in today's market really emphasizes the affordable. That's where the sustainable demand is. Since so many want to be first time homebuyers are priced out of the market currently, it's like a dam that's waiting to break once interest rates go lower compared to a year ago, America has a lower proportion of homeowners and more renters, and the renter numbers just look to keep increasing due to that low affordability. And also this surge of immigrants from the past year or so. That is why you want to own affordable rental housing now. Affordable housing really that can mean a few things in a physical form. That could mean mobile home parks, single family homes, duplexes to fourplex or larger apartment buildings, but in any case, an income producing asset. Do you know what that does for you? That's like an employee that's working for you 24 over seven and without the personality problems, and they never call in sick.

Keith Weinhold 00:19:40 And when you're looking for a property, it's easier to screen properties that it is higher in screen employees. We can help set up an entire real estate investment plan for you with properties like a couple properties. I'll detail for you here shortly. And I also sent you these property details in the second section of last week's newsletter. You also got to see a photo of one of them. And by the way, you can get our wealth building newsletter by texting GR 266866. Just do it right now. What's on your mind for our free? Don't quit your daydream letter. Text GR 266866. And what's been in our newsletter lately? I showed you exactly where I think home prices are going to go by the year 2028. I loved writing about that and researching that for you in the Don't quit Your Daydream letter. Also, in recent letters, you got need to know details about our banks in real trouble now. The Wolf of Airbnb sentenced to prison y new homes will keep getting smaller. Why you can't blame investors for pricier housing.

Keith Weinhold 00:20:54 Why prioritizing property is a huge mistake, and the ten cities where you will regret buying property. And if those stories don't interest you, if getting the first crack at profitable income property does not interest you, then you won't want to subscribe. But if it sounds like those details interest you again, you can get the don't quit your day dream letter by texting gray to 266866 available properties we've had at Gray Marketplace lately that our investment coach can help me with are these two brand new single family homes that make great rentals. The first one is in Prairie Grove, Arkansas. These are the places where the numbers work, and Arkansas has been named the most landlord friendly of all 50 states. It is four bed, two bath purchase price of 288 K and a rent of $2,200. Good numbers for a new build there. It's 1500 and 50ft². The second property, also a new build, is in Pinson, Alabama that's just northeast of Birmingham. And this single family rental is three bed, two bath. The purchase price is 303 K, the rent is $2,000, it's 1400 and eight square feet.

Keith Weinhold 00:22:14 And that rent to price ratio that's not as good as the first one in Arkansas. But of course, Alabama's got those ultra low property tax rates that you get to pay. Yet you can own it and reside in any state or nation. We can help set up an entire real estate investment plan for you, whether it's with properties like these or others, with our investment coaching and it is free for you. Yes, it is just this free as sun, fresh air and hugs. If you think you're ready to buy some real estate pays five ways property. Book a time to chat at Gray marketplace.com/coach to help connect you with a marketplace of income properties. That's grey marketplace.com/coach liberal and president what you'd like and I straight ahead you're listening to get rich education. Hey you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge lending group Nmls 42056. They provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties. They help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire.

Keith Weinhold 00:23:32 With leverage, you can start your prequalification and chat with President Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge Lending group.com, that's Ridge Lending group.com. And your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4%, you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk Your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25 K. You keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back there. Decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know because I'm an investor, to earn 8%. Hundreds of others are text family 266866. Learn more about Freedom Family Investments Liquidity Fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text family to 66866.

Robert Helms 00:24:54 Everybody it's Robert Elms with the Real Estate Guys radio program.

Robert Helms 00:24:57 So glad you found Keith wine old and get rich education. Don't quit your day dream.

Keith Weinhold 00:25:11 Hey. Welcome back to get rich action. We're talking with someone that's going to explain a different subject to us. We're talking about starting up and the potential new nation. I was the president of that nation called Libre, Leon, I was there. President Witt, welcome in. Good to meet you. It's so good to have you here. And, you know, interestingly, we met at an event called Freedom Fest. So this is potentially so parallel with that as you're looking to develop your own nation now at a place like Freedom Fest, I think we have a lot of people that have a certain set of opinions, and a lot of people at a place like Freedom Fest, where you champion ideals, would probably love to tell you how they would like changes to be made in the United States. But I think if you ask that same person, okay, what if you begin with a clean slate? How would you begin a nation anew, but you're actually trying to do that? So tell us about Libber Land.

Keith Weinhold 00:26:04 It's pretty.

Vit Jedlicka 00:26:05 Exciting to.

Robert Helms 00:26:06 Hear Kennedy.

Vit Jedlicka 00:26:07 The candidate for president, talking about his plans to utilize blockchain to make the country transparent and or functioning. Libra is, I would say, at least 5 to 10 years ahead of any other nation states. And utilizing that, we are combining the best technology that is out there with the best ideas, ideology that is out there, which is, of course, libertarianism, making sure that the society as free as possible within some framework of basic rules. So this is exactly what we're doing. And we were looking for a piece of land to manifest that in physical world. And here we go. It's so liberal and it's a beautiful piece of land between Russia and Serbia that was not claimed by any other country for more than 35 years. We came there, we struggled with like we actually took nine years to even get inside of it properly. And now we're building and living there for more than a year.

Keith Weinhold 00:26:58 So this seven square kilometer plot of land between Croatia and Serbia, that is on the Danube floodplain, you've got frontage on the Danube river, even an island and the Danube river here in this Start-Up nation, if you will, of libre land.

Keith Weinhold 00:27:14 Really, as I've come to understand it, one real goal of liberalism is just to have any nation in the world recognize it as its own sovereign nation.

Vit Jedlicka 00:27:25 We actually got a couple countries to write or sign a regular deals, like with other states. We started with Somaliland, which was at the time unrecognized country. It's fully functional. Interesting story. It's actually former Peace of Somalia, which got independence like 25 years ago. And they're fairly finally prosperous and functioning, even without any recognition by any other country in the world. Now, they got recently recognized by Ethiopia. We followed up with Haiti agreement. We were signing a couple more agreements. Right now, I'm actually heading to one of the African countries to sign some friendship agreement. So it's not that the other countries don't recognize us now. We're working hard on diplomacy. You know, we have diplomatic relations with places like El Salvador, where we were on official diplomatic visits. So, of course, traditional form of recognition is one of our priorities.

Vit Jedlicka 00:28:13 But it's not the number one priority, really. Our number one priority is to finish a very close, a whole model of statehood and utilize the 745,000 people that applied for citizenship, for really real building of the country itself and the nation.

Keith Weinhold 00:28:31 Some recognition is coming slowly, but pulling back a bigger picture. Why do this? Why take this on? Why start your own nation?

Vit Jedlicka 00:28:39 Why not? I think leading by a good example is the best way to do things like talking about liberty. I did a lot of educational work on explaining people why liberty works, but it's much better to do things in the practical terms.

Keith Weinhold 00:28:53 Now, what's interesting is, you know, we've talked about freedom and the ideals of freedom earlier. This freedom mean freedom to do whatever you want.

Vit Jedlicka 00:29:03 You know, within some boundaries, of course, as long as you don't breach other people's freedoms and you have to find the right set up. And but right now, the problem with the current society is that there are so many regulations, you don't even know what you're reaching, and you're usually not reaching anybody's property or anybody.

Vit Jedlicka 00:29:20 It's just a bunch of stupid regulations that make your life tough. You cannot do business. You cannot even help your community. It's funny what kind of stuff we are dealing with in Croatia right now. There is a mosquito calamity in the neighborhood around Libre land and the local municipality don't have money to fix it. And they also don't let us to fix it because you have to have special license for fixing it. So everybody is suffering under the mosquito calamity, which is California.

Keith Weinhold 00:29:47 Okay, so that's an example of overregulation, potentially too many laws. You just brought up one of the limits of freedom, potentially. Well, we don't want people to be able to do anything or therefore they might be.

Vit Jedlicka 00:29:57 Able to hurt or to.

Keith Weinhold 00:29:58 Harm another person, but therefore that would be some sort of of law. And then there would be some need to sort of enforce that. So how does a start up country that wants to be a free nation, you know, how do you meet needs like laws and enforcement and perhaps a judicial process.

Vit Jedlicka 00:30:16 Or do you have a standard framework for the country? There is now a newly elected Congress. It's still a test election, but it has been already elected according to all the principles that the blockchain is bringing full transparency, immutability. It happens within the split of second of the very minimal cost. So all these things are actually already happening, and the Congress will now take all the laws that were prepared by the Preparatory Committee. And only if we have the whole framework of the laws necessary to run a state. I have 250 pages of regulations, very simple framework, which already allows a society to function quite well. And I would like to keep it that way. You know, keep the Constitution at the, let's say, the 20 pages and another 230 pages of different laws that define the the ways that the society should work. And anybody basically allowed to read all the regulations in the country within one day. It's not like here, right in the US.

Keith Weinhold 00:31:10 Yes. But its population grows, is the infrastructure grows, is more complicated, needs must be met.

Keith Weinhold 00:31:16 The size of government invariably and inevitably seems to expand with all existing nations in the world. I think the UN recognizes 193 sovereign nations currently. How do you keep the size of government from expanding over the long term in Libya?

Vit Jedlicka 00:31:32 It's a challenge. Of course, but the way we keep it is the way that there is only one institution that can make new laws, and it's kind of a corporate governance of liberalism. But that governance is in check by three other institutions that can get rid of the laws. The first and most important one is public veto. So majority of citizens can veto any law or regulations that they don't like. Second one is the Constitutional Court. So the Constitutional Court looks into the law if it basically is only focused on security and justice or diplomacy, so that the state shouldn't legislate on other things, really let other things to the private sector. So the Constitutional Court strictly looks if it adheres to that. That's another important institution. Then there is something like House of Lords of liberal minded, who can also veto the laws that the corporate governance the Congress actually creates.

Vit Jedlicka 00:32:23 So one institution to make laws and three institutions to get rid of it.

Keith Weinhold 00:32:28 Else about what's there now, the natural resources, the population and the infrastructure.

Vit Jedlicka 00:32:33 Well, that's the beautiful territory with the island next to liberal land. This is part of liberal land. It's called Liberty Island. It's a long, beautiful sandy beach. Right now, the under construction, there is 24, three houses in this area. So it will be one of the third thing will be the tourism. And we need to be able to host the visitors. We are planning two major music festivals and conferences in the summer, which will take place in August and in September. Of course, you're very well invited. We want to promote the tourism in Berlin, but also in the whole region. The biggest resorts. And it's like that with any country that is prosperous around the world. Be it Hong Kong or Singapore, is not the natural resources. It's the capacity of people to freely make, trade and do business.

Keith Weinhold 00:33:20 You're right.

Keith Weinhold 00:33:20 In fact, a place like yes, Hong Kong or Singapore or even Japan itself have been exemplary of that. A place can be prosperous without having many natural resources. It's truly about the ingenuity of the people we talk about. The people tell us more about the population.

Vit Jedlicka 00:33:35 The population. Right now we've got 800,000 people, almost that sign up for citizenship, which is a huge pipeline. I think the reasonable like ideal population of Liberal would be around 140,000. So we cannot even accept everybody to physically live in liberal land because we would be so overpopulated. Right now we've got some thousand citizens and 6500 residents that basically went through the pipeline, and there is a couple dozens of people living on the territory of liberal lands and working and building stuff. So it's kind of fun to see that initial development. very early into the development. There is still a quite a bit of obstacles to really speed up the development of the brand, mainly installed by Croatia, but we're very happy that after all these years we're able to actually be there physically and develop stuff.

Vit Jedlicka 00:34:23 So we're building a small hospital. There are seven construction workers that take care of it. We're also building the Treehouse resort. There is another ten guys working on that, and that there is a bunch of people that came to settle and they're helping with some stuff for the site. And then there is around 150 people that live around Liberal and that are connected and are supporting the movement. Well.

Keith Weinhold 00:34:44 Now we're a real estate platform. We're going to have both public land and privately.

Vit Jedlicka 00:34:50 Every land is private, in a sense. In labor land. The deal is that right now, people can actually come to the land and claim piece of land if they have enough merit. There is are the the shares of liberal land and can actually not even exchange them if they just have them. They have the right to settle things for fun, which is kind of exciting even though there are all these obstacles. But we're helping people to get over them and get the development of the country going as fast as possible.

Keith Weinhold 00:35:16 Can a person purchase merits or purchase land in labor land right now?

Vit Jedlicka 00:35:21 Anybody that donates to Libre land on the website gets the merits.

Keith Weinhold 00:35:26 Are there going to be things like Hoa's in Libre land? Is that something that you foresee? What is actually homeowners associations where you have neighborhoods and boards in those neighborhoods where you know they need to approve of things like, hey, you can only paint your home for different colors, and you need to mow your grass within every two weeks.

Vit Jedlicka 00:35:46 Well, that surely there will be different types of associations and liberal. We're not going to force one or the other type. This property development here on Liberty Island, the three houses and this area will be kind of association of sort. We want to have 24 people that that invest into the tree house, and they would act as a community. They will help each other, but they will also have the place to visitors. To really make sure that we have a good initial settlement for the permanent population. And I would like every single one of these guys to like some nice story behind how they came to live and then why they're building a house there. We want to make a reality TV show out of it as soon as possible as well.

Keith Weinhold 00:36:28 What about currency? The euro is used in the area. But you mentioned blockchain earlier, and I don't think you plan on using the euro in liberally. Tell us about that. We don't do.

Vit Jedlicka 00:36:38 That. We use liberal and dolar. We use liberal and merit. Those are the main currencies that are tied with our blockchain. And the pound dollar was launched on exchanges three months ago, reading quite nicely, steadily at 2 USD per $1 billion. So this is like also demanded currency by our suppliers.

Keith Weinhold 00:36:56 Is it a cryptocurrency? Yes.

Vit Jedlicka 00:36:58 It's just my own currency of our blockchain. Our blockchain is standalone. It's not depending on any other blockchain. Our citizens are the one ones that securely network and run the network. They run the servers. Every single citizen in Lebanon has the right to run the run the network. That's kind of all we know. We're not really being dependent on any other network like Ethereum or Polkadot. We are simply running our own thing with its own main token. The main token is liberal dollar, but the main political token is liberal and varied, and that also comes with the political voting rights.

Keith Weinhold 00:37:32 Do you foresee there being a future rental property market on libre land?

Vit Jedlicka 00:37:39 Oh, of course, of all these, all these three houses are meant to be for rental for bigger events or team building. So this is something that is happening right now, and I wish we could have at least, you know, 50 bedrooms there by the end of summer.

Keith Weinhold 00:37:54 You know, we talked about how society might work on liberally, and why don't we pull back a bit more and talk about that physical geography, because you chose an area that's basically on the Danube floodplain. So it's probably pretty fertile and it's near some other populated nations. But of course, there are some areas of the world that no one else is claiming. Tell us about how you chose this area over. All the others in the.

Vit Jedlicka 00:38:16 Area was in the most reasonable place, I would say, between the two countries that had war, and they learned to sort out things in a peaceful way. And, you know, Antarctica is also on claim, but you don't want to stay there.

Vit Jedlicka 00:38:27 It's for freezing, right? This particular place is heart shaped. It's seven square kilometers. It was a culturally similar environment to where I was born, so I was considering it as a perfect place to start. And you can fit.

Keith Weinhold 00:38:39 You can get all four seasons in Libre land. What else should one know about Libre land that they come approach you with questions about what do people really want to hear about?

Vit Jedlicka 00:38:50 They of course are interested in the sport. They want to see how what kind of utility does it have? They're a bunch of countries where you can use it to get in and out, which is kind of cool. But the main utility for Americans, for example, is that they use it on crypto exchanges, or they use it with different financial institutions as a second passport. If the US passport is not good for that, it's a great membership club, you know, in the country that is just being born. And and it's a great social gathering. Think about this. 35,000 Americans that sign up for citizenship as well.

Vit Jedlicka 00:39:22 We've got a small consulate in every bigger state, or at least a representative person. The branch, for example, here is representing liberals in Washington, D.C. so we've got a nice network of nice guys all around the place, and then a potential big supportive network with all of these people that sign up for citizenship.

Keith Weinhold 00:39:41 Now, how do you get the word out about libertarians so that people can get interested? Of course, we are an example of this right now, as our audience is learning about liberal land and the pros and cons of this concept of a potential condition. How do others learn about it?

Vit Jedlicka 00:39:55 There were articles written in Liberal, and I believe in more than 40,000 different medias actually, so we were pretty heavily covered in past. I believe more than 1 or 2 billion people learned about it through the media outreach, but the word is also spreading from person to person. Like people like it. They get on board their friends, their families. It's kind of exciting to see that.

Keith Weinhold 00:40:18 What about the language in the culture that you see developing here? Will it feel European just based on its geographic proximity? Is that what you foresee, or does it have more to do with where the inhabitants come from?

Vit Jedlicka 00:40:31 The English, of course, is number one language, but we are also developing liberal English out of all the mistakes that we make in English, that makes the language a little bit difficult to learn and understand.

Keith Weinhold 00:40:41 Americans have to learn English.

Vit Jedlicka 00:40:43 We've got a quite nice culture there, which is, of course mixture of the local Slavic culture with this international make sense nowadays, people, a lot of people from Scandinavia that are moving in. I think we've got a very good German group now coming. There is quite a few Americans that are being involved. It's quite difficult, for example, for Americans to stay liberal. And right now we have to improve our relationship with Croatia because Americans are being banned from actually, for some strange reason.

Keith Weinhold 00:41:15 Okay, still some antagonism with your neighbor Croatia. That's kind of.

Vit Jedlicka 00:41:20 The situation.

Keith Weinhold 00:41:20 In Croatia has created some access problems as well. Tell us about that.

Vit Jedlicka 00:41:25 Well, there's been solved. Last year we when we we we came in to liberalize with more than 60 people at the same time. So they had no means of preventing that access. And since that time actually have free entry in an hour of liberalized. We have a small border crossing there with the with the Croatian police and kind of agreement that we can pass in and out, which is nice.

Keith Weinhold 00:41:46 Try to keep things smooth with Croatia there on the one side of Liberal and here this new Start-Up nation. And we're talking with president Vit here of Liberal. And are there any last things that people need to know about liberalism before I ask how they can go to your website and learn more? Are there any just other last things I think we should know?

Vit Jedlicka 00:42:05 It's a great opportunity to visit now with these two festivals. Those are nice social gatherings. It's the floating metal festival in August. That's the way.

Keith Weinhold 00:42:14 Man. Like the Burning Man.

Vit Jedlicka 00:42:15 Yeah, about the float. That's floating, man. Because we're on Danube. And then there is the Liverpool Echo, which is a major international festival that has moved on this year, which is based on an article, a famous Mexican festival that will be a probably the biggest cultural event this year.

Keith Weinhold 00:42:33 Well, literally. And be a success if it is a net exporter rather than a net importer, because it's difficult to have sectors for everything from industry to agriculture in Beyblade.

Vit Jedlicka 00:42:46 Well, our biggest export is freedom. Ideas like it's like Chile spreading like wildfire. think about it. Like for two months we had the biggest immigration in the world. We go to the United States, where there was more people applying for citizenship of liberal. And then there were applicants for green cards in the United States. The idea itself, it's something that the time has come. There is amazing interest in building new countries, building free countries. And right now I can see that we are on the right track when people like Canada are pushing for transparency through blockchain, because we know what they are talking about. We have already done it and we are applying it in the real world.

Keith Weinhold 00:43:24 Well, it's an interesting experiment in this way. You, the listener of the viewer, you can follow it as an experiment, as an example of what to not do or what to do as live land develops. Why don't you let our audience know how they can learn more about it?

Vit Jedlicka 00:43:42 Fairly easy to apply for citizenship.

Vit Jedlicka 00:43:44 You can first become your resident and then come and help some different means. Or you just directly go for the citizenship. It's an investment of $10,000 or donation of $10,000. And you become a member of of our community with the passport and with the right contacts to the right people. That will really help you to get the best out of the community.

Keith Weinhold 00:44:04 Well, I don't have a great chat with a national president every day, but I sure did today. Thanks so much for your time. It's been interesting learning about liberalism. Thank you very much.

Vit Jedlicka 00:44:15 Made me think UK and I hope to see you a liberal one.

Keith Weinhold 00:44:17 Maybe you will. It sounds like a donation of ten K gets you a liberal and passport. Like I said earlier, as of March 1200 people had paid up to that amount for the passport. Music festivals and conferences in Libya. In the next few months, that could be a way to check it out. Now, it's certainly something I'd need to know more about before I could either endorse it or reject it.

Keith Weinhold 00:44:48 Citizenship in Libya planned to get more of the skeptic side. The criticism I would visit the Libyan Wikipedia page and get ready for some dismissal of its diplomatic recognition there. Then you can visit Libre Land Oregon, learn more about citizenship status, the passport actually helping with the construction of the territory and earning libre land merits, which is a cryptocurrency. If you find it interesting, it's a matter for you to do some deep due diligence on next week. The King of Commercial Real Estate will be here with us. Until then, host Keith Wendell. Don't quit your day, Adrian.

Speaker 6 00:45:31 Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial, or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of yet Rich education LLC exclusively.

Keith Weinhold 00:45:59 The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com.
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511: Freedom, Liberty, and Real Estate Investing
22 jul· Get Rich Education
Coming to you from FreedomFest in Las Vegas, I talk with Founder Mark Skousen. He’s been named one of the World’s Top 20 Living Economists.

Also, an event summary with GRE Investment Coach, Naresh.

Learn about the deleterious consequences of rent control. President Joe Biden supports it (somewhat).

If four tenants live in identical fourplex units, it actually makes sense for them to pay different rent amounts. I explain.

We can construct more housing by relaxing zoning requirements in the right way—reduce off-street parking requirements, increase ADUs, no rent control, reduce minimum lawn sizes.

There’s higher homelessness in L.A., San Francisco, and Austin than Houston. Houston has a lower-cost market, few zoning requirements, and less NIMBY mindset.

Politicians run on platforms like immigration, abortion, and inflation. But they don’t run on reducing the debt because they don’t see it as a problem that they created.

At FreedomFest, I attended a presidential debate between the current candidates of the Libertarian Party, Green Party, and Constitution Party. Most or all agreed that the Fed should be abolished.

The common theme at FreedomFest was: “Government, get out of the way.”

Resources mentioned:

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GREmarketplace.com

Get mortgage loans for investment property:

RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

or e-mail: [email protected]

Invest with Freedom Family Investments.

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Complete episode transcript:

Keith Weinhold** ((00:00:01)) - - Welcome to GRE. I'm Keith Weinhold. I'm here at the world's largest gathering of free minds. It's a conference called Freedom Fest where I talk to the conference founder. He's been named one of the top 20 living economists in the world today, as well as a talk with one of our great investment coaches to learn what my conference takeaways are and more. Freedom, life, liberty and the pursuit of real estate and investing today. And get rich education.

Robert Syslo** ((00:00:36)) - - Since 2014, the powerful get Rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate, investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad Advisors advisors and delivers a new show every week. Since 2014, there's been millions of listeners downloads and 188 world nations. He has A-list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get Rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus has had its own dedicated Apple and Android listener.

Robert Syslo** ((00:01:10)) - - Phone apps build wealth on the go with the get Rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get Rich education podcast or visit get Rich education.com.

Corey Coates** ((00:01:21)) - - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:01:37)) - - We're gonna go from Oswego, New York to Lake Oswego, Oregon, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith, while you are inside, get rich education. I'm attending a free office live and in person in Las Vegas today. One key economic freedom and what makes a free market free is that ability for producers and suppliers and landlords to set prices based on what the market will bear, whether that's a high price or a low price. Now, what's wrong with rent control, which is a law that puts a ceiling on the amount of rent that you're allowed to charge? Well, that sounds like a nice thing to do for one set of people in the short term. Well, rent control has the same effect as price controls on consumer goods.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:02:30)) - - If the government thinks that cars are becoming too expensive, and they set up a new law that says that you can't charge more than $20,000 if you want to sell a new car, well, then those manufacturers will stop producing cars and soon enough, you, the consumer, cannot buy a car. You'd no longer have an automobile market at all. And the consumer suffers under no choice and even austerity. Put price controls on beef jerky and companies will stop making beef jerky. Put price controls on rent called rent control, and landlords have zero incentive to provide property, no motivation to improve property. And there is a raft just reams of evidence and studies out there that show that rent control, that is a surefire way to then reduce the supply of functional housing, just like the supply of cars or beef jerky would get cut. That's especially not a good solution in today's real estate supply constrained world. And, you know, here's what's interesting. The government created the inflation in the first place. That led to the high price problem that they think they can cure through rent control.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:03:52)) - - I mean, government keeps trying to solve a problem that they created. Well, just take a new course, a new direction and stop the inflation. In that way, you'll cure the higher prices long term and then near term. What you can do is relax zoning requirements in order to create more housing. I mean, in three cases here, less government cures the problems, no inflation, no rent control, and thirdly, no stringent zoning. Knock down all three of those walls and instead, now what have you done? You've encouraged a bunch of builders to come into a market. You've encouraged competition. And what does competition do? It increases quality and it yeah, lowers prices. So cure the problem by knocking down the walls. You know, you as a landlord, I don't even think that there should be laws that say that you have got to charge every ten at the same rent amount. Yeah, and that is even if each one of your tenants has seemingly an identical unit, say, in a fourplex building.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:05:04)) - - Now I'm on different fourplex buildings and I have most everyone like throughout history, I've had just about every tenant paid different rent amounts in the same building, even though all of the units were built at the same time and had the same square footage. Now a real estate investing newcomer, you know, they might think that that sounds unfair, that these tenants with basically identical units paying different rent amounts. But we all know how it works in practice, in real life. I mean, one of those four tenants might have the front unit with the best views, while the tenant with the best view. Well, of course they're going to be willing to pay more for that unit. Well, that right there, that's free market supply and demand. The fourplex unit with the best view will rent out faster and for more. But instead of that arrangement, if it's mandated, say, by the government that everyone in the building must pay the same rent, say that each of the four units must pay exactly $2,000.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:06:07)) - - Oh, well, then the tenant with the worst view, which then has less benefit to living there, has to subsidize the tenant with the best view that already has the best benefit of living there, because they must all pay exactly $2,000. And then what about things like several months from now? Say you have a vacancy at Christmas. Well, it's hard to get a tenant to move at Christmas to get them in there. So you'll charge a low rent just to get someone in there then. Versus how you charge more now in summertime, because tenants demand units, a lot of them want to get settled in during the summer before the school year starts. What about a tenants living in your fourplex or rental single family home for five years, and their unit hasn't been painted or renovated in a while, and the tenant has seen you already. Well, they're probably going to pay less then a new tenant will in there say freshly painted unit. So my point is that even making every tenant of one individual fourplex building have to pay the same rent amount.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:07:10)) - - Well, that is a form of rent control and that is actually unfair if they all have to pay the same rent amount. The free market is what's fair and enables a system of rent price discovery, instead of being confined and oppressed under rent control. Now here, the Freedom Fest in Las Vegas and we'll discuss the conference more. Today I attended one panel discussion. It was called How the Government Created the Housing Crisis and what we can do to Fix it, And it really gave specific solutions to provide more housing. This includes things like stop mandating a minimum square area for parking spaces. Stop mandating such large lawns. Instead, people can share a public park and relax the requirements that have so many easements out of property. Well, all that stuff is zoning in its stifles development and it leads to higher housing prices. Now, I maintain that not all zoning is bad. I don't think that you want a housing development surrounded by factories with smokestacks. So it's about relaxing zoning in the right way and promoting the right policies, like the benefits of a yimby movement.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:08:27)) - - Yes, in my backyard. Removing off street parking mandates altogether and allowing more ADUs allow Single-Family homes on smaller lot sizes. And we've already seen some of that. We're seeing home builders do more of that. They're building single family homes closer together, smaller lot sizes. But a lot of the wrong strategies exist out there. And once people get the benefits, like the beneficiaries of these wrong strategies, I mean, they don't want to give them up. Like New York's rent stabilization program that gives rent breaks to wealthy New Yorkers that also have a pricey home out in the Hamptons. Well, that's not the right policy. That's not helping the people that need it most. And you know, when the wrong policies infiltrate a market, the reaction can be amazingly rapid. I mean, how rapid? Like, do you think you would see a construction project literally halt mid construction? Yeah. You actually can like construction cranes just stop swinging. In Saint Paul, Minnesota, you saw construction cranes stop mid-air mid construction.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:09:38)) - - When Saint Paul moved toward a rent control of no more than 3% annual rent increases. Well, that's a form of rent control. When that happens, building stops because the developer knows that people don't want to buy those units or invest in those units or rent those units. And I've got more to discuss on housing shortly, but let's bring in the very founder, host and producer of Freedom Fest here. He has been named as one of the top 20 living economists in the world. Doctor Mark Skosan and you will hear some background noise in these conference interviews. We are at a conference at times. We're in the exhibit hall now. Interestingly, here with Mark, I bring up with him how much I dislike these political labels that just divide the nation. I mean, don't you agree that it would be great if the nation were less divided? Yes, we all would. Well, we can do our part by avoiding saying words like red and blue and oh, you know, I can't stand those maps.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:10:44)) - - Then you see, I've mentioned this to you before. You see these maps in political season that show where the red states are and where the blue states are. I mean, how divisive and polarizing that is not unifying in the United States of America. The fact that this conference has a non divisive founder like Mark Skosan is what attracted me here. Sure enough, here you'll hear me tell him how much I appreciate this. This was prescient because the very next day after this interview that you're about to hear, that was the assassination attempt on former President Donald Trump. Hey, it's Keith Reinhold here. I'm at Freedom Fest with Freedom Fest host and founder Mark Scott. And thanks for having us here. Yeah. My pleasure, my pleasure. Thank you for coming. Well, I've got to tell you one reason that attracted me to this conference. I was concerned that it was going to be too politically partisan. And I respect you so much, because I know you have said that in most of all the books you've read, you've avoided these labels like liberal, conservative, left, right, red, blue, yes, progressive, conservative and all that.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:11:58)) - - So that's what I'd like hearing when we talk about this conference championing principles of freedom and liberty. What does an American really need to know about freedom and liberty that's under attack today?

Mark Skousen** ((00:12:09)) - - I think what we've tried to preach is the Adam Smith model, which you call the system of natural liberty. And what that meant was under the rule of law and justice and a robust competitive model. You've maximized the freedom of choice, freedom to choose your own work, your own business, how much salary you're going to charge or wages you're going to pay, whether you can hire or fire people. So within those rules, within those guidelines, you have maximum security. But in today's world, more and more everything, it's either being prohibited or mandated. So we're being squeezed from both sides. The idea of freedom of best to maximize freedom is for us to come together and find out what are the best solutions to improve our lives is the idea. So we talk philosophy, history, science and technology, healthy living, economics, politics.

Mark Skousen** ((00:13:05)) - - It's all part of the program here. But it's not just a political conference.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:13:08)) - - Part of this is lowering the guardrails and promoting free markets. The only thing that we've all seen happen in free markets is inflation, oftentimes ironically, created by some of those forces that put guardrails in place. So what does an investor there are a lot of investors here. Oh yeah. What does an investor need to know with regard to inflation today. How can the everyday person respond.

Mark Skousen** ((00:13:33)) - - So one thing is we have a whole section on financial freedom because without financial freedom you're limited in what you can do and your influence that you can have. So this is very important. We live in an era of permanent inflation. Since World War two we've had permanent inflation. We didn't used to, but now we do because we're off the gold standard. We've adopted Keynesian economics, which means deficit spending all the time. We have adopted the dollar rather than gold. So we've lost that discipline. The fed is the engine of inflation. And they even have a policy of a minimum of at least 2% inflation rate.

Mark Skousen** ((00:14:10)) - - We had a whole session. Actually Steve Forbes wasn't there, but Nathan Lewis is co-author of in the book inflation. We had a big session on what are the best inflation hedges. So we talk about gold and silver. The stock market, Bitcoin rallies, high bonds, real estate. We had all of those discussion. And that was the great thing about Freedom Fest is that you really do get answers and best solutions. At our conference, I attended that particular. Oh you did? Yeah.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:14:38)) - - From Freedom Fest.

Mark Skousen** ((00:14:39)) - - I've really.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:14:40)) - - Enjoyed this.

Mark Skousen** ((00:14:41)) - - So far. We have an exhibit hall.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:14:42)) - - Which happens to be right. Oh yeah, we have breakout sessions that attendees can go to for the sessions that particularly interest. There are then a big general session where I've enjoyed presentations from Robert Kiyosaki to Ice-T. What is the future potential for getting Fest attendees? What would you like to tell them about what this conference entails? What they can.

Mark Skousen** ((00:15:03)) - - Expect in the.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:15:03)) - - Bank that they can.

Mark Skousen** ((00:15:04)) - - Get? Well, one of the things is just the wonderful camaraderie that you feel, the buzz that you feel the meeting of like minded people who are all trying to seek best solutions rather than labels and attacking people.

Mark Skousen** ((00:15:18)) - - And, we have the presidential debate here, for example. Well, we have all the third parties come together libertarians, the Constitution Party, the Green Party. We have RFK coming. The two major parties decided not to come. So, so much for their belief in democracy. But the idea is there's a there's something for everybody here. You want to improve your lifestyle, you want to prove your financial situation. You want to have better clarity on what is the proper role of government. Read about this A conference for you. This is an annual event that we usually have in the summer in Las Vegas and then other cities, and it's only 3 or 4. You know, we live busy lives, so can we come together once a year to learn to network, to socialize and celebrate liberty? I think we can if we plan ahead. When we.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:16:06)) - - Drop these labels, we can get a clear download of sorts, remove filters.

Mark Skousen** ((00:16:11)) - - And think.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:16:12)) - - Clearly. And this is a largest gathering.

Mark Skousen** ((00:16:15)) - - Of.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:16:15)) - - Free minds. So for Mark Skelton I'm Keith Weigel. You heard Mark Skelton mentioned the presidential debate at Freedom Fest. I watched quite a bit of that. More on it later. Gray Investment coach narration is here in person with me at Freedom Fest. Coming up, he and I give you a download of some policy and real estate investing highlights that you can learn from. That's straight ahead. I'm Keith Reinhold, you're listening to get Rich education. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge Lending Group Nmls 42056. They provided our listeners with more loans than any provider in the entire nation because they specialize in income properties, they help you build a long term plan for growing your real estate empire with leverage. You can start your prequalification and chat with President Ridge personally. Start now while it's on your mind at Ridge Lending Group. Com that's Ridge Lending group.com. And Your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:17:28)) - - If your money isn't making 4%, you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk. Your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out, instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25 K. You keep getting paid until you decide you want your money back there. Decade plus track record proves they've always paid their investors 100% in full and on time. And I would know, because I'm an investor, to earn 8%. Hundreds of others are. Text. Family to 66866. Learn more about Freedom Family Investments Liquidity Fund on your journey to financial freedom through passive income. Text family to 66866.

T. Harv Eker** ((00:18:23)) - - This is the millionaire mind trick. You're listening to the powerful get Rich education with Keith Weingarten.

Speaker UU** ((00:18:29)) - - Don't quit your day dream.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:18:39)) - - Hey, we're here talking about Freedom Fest, and I'm doing that alongside gray investment coach. The race. Hey, welcome in the race. Hey, Keith.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:18:47)) - - We are here in real life at Freedom Fest in Las Vegas, Nevada. And what Freedom Fest does is it promotes and champions the ideals of freedom in the United States, and it includes a bunch of guest speakers that have made appearances here that you got to see in person, from Ice-T to Robert Kiyosaki to a bunch of presidential candidates as well, sometimes not championing principles of things like freedom and tolerance and liberty and tyranny. And I think anyone can agree to freedom on a this basis. But when you think it through and where the discussion really begins is, oh, well, if you have freedom, does that mean you should be free to do anything at all that you want? Probably not. And that's quite a discussion or tolerance. That's an ideal. That sounds good, but oh does that mean you should tolerate absolutely anything? No probably not. So that's where a lot of the interesting policy decisions and a lot of the interesting debates come in here in the race. And I attended some of these presentations together and other ones separately.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:19:53)) - - So we have some different perspectives on what we've learned here at Freedom Fest. Grace, why don't you tell us about some of the good takeaways that you had? I had a lot of good takeaways, Keith.

Mark Skousen** ((00:20:03)) - - This is not just about freedom in the United States. It's about freedom around the world. And you even interviewed and I believe we're playing that interview soon. If you haven't already played it yet, you interviewed probably the freest nation in the world. It's a brand new nation and it's called liberalism, like liberty, land libre land in Europe. And it touts itself as the freest nation in the world. So there have been all sorts of topics happening or talked about from business, finance, economics, real estate, crypto, bitcoin, gold to non-business and financial topics, which I actually found more interesting simply because.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:20:46)) - - Most of what I listen to and what.

Mark Skousen** ((00:20:48)) - - Is business finance econ. I wanted something a little bit different, especially as a father of two young boys. There were topics on gender and sexuality.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:21:01)) - - And.

Mark Skousen** ((00:21:02)) - - Vaccinations being the vaccinated versus unvaccinated. Robert F Kennedy was the keynote speaker at this conference, and he's a major presidential candidate.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:21:12)) - - RL Jr RFK.

Mark Skousen** ((00:21:14)) - - Jr. Even though he's not part of a major party, he's probably the most popular third party candidate over the last 30 years, so he's a candidate. There were lectures on healthcare.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:21:28)) - - And.

Mark Skousen** ((00:21:29)) - - How to be a better patient. And hold your doctor and hold the healthcare system accountable. The other aspect of this conference is there are some heavy hitters just walking around freely. Like I met Matt Ridley easily, I met Robert Kiyosaki, just he was dressed in very casual clothing to where people didn't even recognize them. And I did and told him how much I appreciated him. You know, you and the great podcast and huge inspiration for me. Yeah, people like Kiyosaki walking around freely, presidential candidates walking around freely, many third party candidates, not just RFK. He wasn't walking around as freely. He was in and out pretty quickly with really heavy security.

Mark Skousen** ((00:22:09)) - - But you had other third party candidates, like the Libertarian Party candidate and the Green Party candidate walking around freely. I ran into Vivek Ramaswamy, his campaign manager, while getting pizza. We are both standing in line getting pizza. We ended up having about almost a two hour lunch. One day talking finance business Vivek's policies his future. So overall this conference very educational, inside the classroom, very beneficial outside the classroom. We're going to bring some guests on the great podcast. We met at this conference, publicists who we met at this conference who represent good guests, some business development opportunities, maybe some not just good guests, but people who we would recommend their newsletters, maybe even outside of the real estate industry, people, contacts within the real estate industry. So it's not all about what you learn in the classroom. It's also about who you meet, the networking, the business development. Overall, just a really, really successful experience. There were a few.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:23:11)) - - Shows that snagged me as a guest while here as well.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:23:15)) - - I'm talking about American freedom here chiefly. But you did mention Lebanon, a startup nation between Croatia and Serbia. That's seven square kilometers in area. You know, I think there are a lot of people at a conference like this and just anywhere in society where if you ask them, well, hey, if you think you could run the nation better if you were starting it all over again, how would you start a nation from a clean slate and actually got an opportunity to do that? Well, I'll be interviewing the president of Lebanon here, where this country is trying to seek recognition from any nation. They want to start their own country, and they want to do freedom and really begin a country of their rights.

Mark Skousen** ((00:23:55)) - - And see is, is is.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:23:57)) - - Is is.

Mark Skousen** ((00:23:57)) - - Bitcoin I think not just crypto but it's bitcoin. And it's interesting because you hear a lot of times you don't like the country that you live in, go somewhere else. These people took it to a whole new level and said, well, we're just going to start our own country.

Mark Skousen** ((00:24:10)) - - And and it's about three square miles. So it's about the size of the area that I lived in. Tampa, not even Tampa, just almost the neighborhood that I live in, Tampa. So it's not a huge country, but it's interesting talking to them. And as you'll hear in the interview, hearing about what it's like to start a new country and there's a lot that you have to go, you know, there's a lot of fundraising if you want to call it that, that you have to do. It's it's a lot it's bigger than the business.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:24:37)) - - You'll learn more about that on an upcoming episode of the show with the nation of Berlin. I attended a presentation called A Forgotten Solution to the Housing Crunch. Most people think of real estate development is either single family homes or multifamily properties. This espoused the building of light touch density of 2 to 4 unit properties, and how that increases the density. But it maintains character. And they showed an awful lot of photos in the presentation where from a street, a four unit building can actually like a single family home when it has the right design and therefore you don't get this NIMBYism pushback.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:25:16)) - - I saw a number of smart design examples of that. And you know what this does? Will this help keep the cost of housing down in an area? What it allows for in a society is it allows the children who grew up in an area to afford the housing there without being priced out. Also called this multifamily missing middle 2 to 4 unit housing. You don't have the NIMBYism pushback that you do with multifamily housing. There are an awful lot of opinions here about people that want to avoid rent control, about how that's typically the bad policy. And many likened rent control to bombing American cities over time because landlords don't have an incentive to improve anything. So rent control is not a good solution to increasing the housing supply. And a lot of the discussion was how you get politicians to say no to rent control, sharing with them. Cato Institute studies on how the free market really makes for a higher housing supply, because that makes developers want to come into the market. And it was noted in one of the panel discussions about rent control and about providing more affordable housing.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:26:27)) - - But if there's a four unit building of owners of all four units of that building, how that's deemed as less threatening than if there's a four unit building of renters.

Mark Skousen** ((00:26:38)) - - So question for you, the housing panels that you attended were these people, were they private investors or they worked for private equity companies? I think maybe a documentary filmmaker who does real estate documentary, what was their background?

Keith Weinhold** ((00:26:50)) - - Think tanks and yes, a documentary filmmaker of a film called Shabbat Vacation. And I did not get to see the film about the perils and ills of rent control on Shabbat vacation. But I talked with one of the people that worked on the project and basically that movie. It does glorify the landlord that was brought up. And typically in popular culture, you don't glorify the landlord. I mean, the landlord is kind of the beleaguered party in this, and it was critical of rent control there. And so it's helping to spread an awareness of how that really doesn't help the housing supply. Quantity work quality over time. I attended another presentation.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:27:33)) - - It was called Homelessness California versus Texas and Homelessness. Of course, it's a multifaceted problem. There are a number of reasons that it occurs, but they really brought up that it often results from the loss of family connection a lot more often than what some people think. And it really brought to light that Houston has a lower proportion of homelessness in L.A. and San Francisco does. What are the reason this that that is the case. And that is because Houston has a lower proportion of homelessness, because it's a lower cost to build there, and Houston has way fewer zoning requirements, you see, almost like a hodgepodge of building across Houston. You have substantially less NIMBYism in Houston. You just have a culture there that doesn't push back on buildings. So those are really some of the key parallels between why the homelessness crisis is worse in California than it is in Texas. In most places, Austin actually has policies that are so agricultural to the rest of Texas, giving Austin a somewhat higher homelessness rate.

Mark Skousen** ((00:28:38)) - - Wow, that's a lot of real estate content that you got there.

Mark Skousen** ((00:28:42)) - - Anything else? Keith?

Keith Weinhold** ((00:28:44)) - - Another presentation I attended was called Permanent Rising Prices. What are the best inflation hedges? And, you know, for a while they didn't even put real estate up there as one of them. And I was almost foaming at the mouth getting ready to ask a question. But they did bring in real estate at the end. When it comes to inflation. Many of them brought up the fact that we have multi-trillion dollar deficits even when we're in good times. I had never thought of it that way before. If most people would look at the history of the world and what's happening with the nation while they're running multi-trillion dollar deficits, they probably think that they're trending toward poverty and austerity. But that's not the case. This is what's happening in good times. And politicians, they really don't run on a platform of reducing our debt. You notice that none of the politicians do that. Instead, you see politicians run on platforms like immigration or the housing shortage or abortion. But, you know, politicians, they don't run on a platform of reducing our debt.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:29:42)) - - And that's because they all see it as a problem that they didn't create, and they don't really want to work their way out of it either. So that's why it doesn't come up. Also, with the best inflation hedges, they showed the rank of asset performance for the last 200 years of five items stocks, bonds, treasury bills, gold and the dollar. And really it was coming down to two guys debating on whether stocks or gold were better. They both made their case either way. And they didn't bring in real estate until the end. But when they brought in real estate, they broad brushstroke and do what so many do, and they just looked at it as an asset class in what is its capital appreciation over time. Yeah. And you know, they didn't separate out income property as its own class like we would. But some of the panelists, they did not like real estate. They talked about how it's not liquid, about how you have to borrow funds, about how there's a maintenance burden and a repair burden with real estate, and you have tenants and management and some things like that.

Mark Skousen** ((00:30:40)) - - Fair, all fair.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:30:41)) - - All fair points. And one panelist brought up that gold has outperformed the gold mining stocks just historically over time. So those are some of the inflation hedges and some of the other issues with inflation that you don't think about very much as you have policy advocates and politicians addressing.

Mark Skousen** ((00:30:57)) - - Well, I'll say gold mining stocks and most traders will tell you traders by gold mining stocks, not investors. So gold mining stocks are meant to be held over the short term. They are not meant to be held over a long period of time like physical tangible gold is. So for people to say, oh yeah, gold outperforms gold stocks over a 30 year period. That's true. But most people are buying gold stocks Like gold mining, stocks are only holding over a short period of time.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:31:29)) - - Well, housing and inflation were such widespread themes here since it has been such a problem, much of it wrought by the pandemic. As we wind down here summarizing what we've experienced at our first Freedom Fest, for each of us, have any last thoughts with respect to housing and inflation since they were such overarching themes?

Mark Skousen** ((00:31:49)) - - Well, the common theme here at Freedom Fest was government got out of the way because if you let the free market work itself out, if you let people be, people work themselves out.

Mark Skousen** ((00:32:01)) - - But the onus on people to take personal responsibility, that in and of itself solves the inflation problem because you don't have government restrictions, government mandates, and And this was a major topic and that was the lockdowns of 2020. The mandatory vaccine mandates of 2021, those were all inflationary because when you have people fired from their jobs or dropping out, quitting their jobs because they didn't want to take this job, that means prices are higher and lower. Workforce means you have to pay the whoever is there higher wages. And that's what ended up happening. So it's not just about dollars and cents. It's something as simple as getting a job caused inflation. And ultimately when inflation goes up, of course that's going to affect rents, that's going to affect housing. There was a major savings rate, which I'm sure you covered in 2020, where people were saving money, being locked down at home. And once things started opening up, that money was spent and that created inflation. And people, as soon as they could get out of their house said, hey, I want to move to Florida, or I want to move to Texas or Utah or where we are here in Nevada.

Mark Skousen** ((00:33:10)) - - And that's why housing values exploded. So the inflation was caused by government. It wasn't just the government spending. It was actual psychological and physical things that the government or the policies of the government did that created an inflation. The government spending, the low Federal Reserve interest rates are just a piece of the pie, or they're just a couple of pieces to the pie. And so it was interesting to learn that all these other areas, all these other, like I said, policies that the government enacted. And that's what Robert F Kennedy Jr, RFK, talked about in his keynote speech. All of these policies affected the purchasing power of our dollar.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:33:53)) - - We have all had more dollars chasing fewer goods and services, one of those being housing itself. Hey, it's been great to meet up here in real life at Freedom Fest this year in a race. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. Thank you Keith. I'm great. Yeah. Narration I enjoying freedom Fest here. Oh, there's such a wide variety of vendors and viewpoints all around this concept of free thinking, typically with getting government out of the way.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:34:29)) - - In fact, in the exhibit hall, which is right across from where the speaker discussions are, there are booths for gold, real estate, cryptocurrency stocks, a dating app for unvaccinated people, self-directed IRAs, a program for teaching capitalism to school children. There is even a book that espouses biblical capitalist virtues. And then elsewhere in the exhibit hall, atheist virtues. There was also a promoter of a currency called the Nevada Gold Back, and what it is is 1/1000 of an ounce of 24 karat gold. And it is physical like gold back. It looks sort of like a dollar bill, just much, much more in the exhibit hall. Now, one concept that I did not hear any criticism about was Trump tariffs. Tariffs are not free market. In fact, it's akin to erecting a trade wall. And maybe there is a session about it. But there are many sessions going on concurrently and I can't attend them all. And in other sessions I was asked to be a speaker and was interviewed. Like you heard.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:35:45)) - - Doctor Scholes had mentioned there was a presidential debate here. Now the two major party candidates didn't attend. I watched RFK Jr speak here, an independent candidate, and he was not in the presidential debate, though he spoke separately in the security for RFK Jr was formidable, even though he spoke the day before the Trump shooting. The presidential debate was among three different parties. It was Jill Stein at the Green Party, Randall Terry of the Constitution Party, and Libertarian Party candidate Chase Oliver, who is a particularly bright, articulate guy, and most or all of those candidates, they agree that we should end the Federal Reserve. And the presidential debate, interestingly, was moderated by Congressman Thomas Massie, who has more formally proposed ending the fed outside of the presidential debate. I also attended a different session. It was a Bitcoin debate called Will the Bitcoin bubble ever burst? And you had two guys promoting and talking about the virtues of Bitcoin. And then you had two guys criticizing Bitcoin. And one of the two bitcoin critics was Whole Foods founder John Mackey.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:36:58)) - - So this really got interesting. Now I like a lot of the benefits of Bitcoin personally, but I must say in this particular debate the Bitcoin critics decide that Maggie was on. Oh they won this. The proponents best points were the people back in the day said electricity in the internet word feasible. They weren't going to last, but electricity and the internet won and Bitcoin will to the pro camp also espouses that Bitcoin is the first time we've had absolute digital scarcity. You cannot copy and paste bitcoin, but yeah, the critics did a better job. They said that Bitcoin is always made future promises, but it falls short like its awful acceptance rate as a currency. Still today its price levels are dreadfully volatile, just miserably volatile. You can't count on it then as a store of value. John Mackey said that Bitcoin produces no goods, no services and no cash flow. The Bitcoin critics also asked more than once this question how has Bitcoin made anyone's life simpler, easier or better? There really weren't any good answers to that question, and they even critiqued that with its fixed supply at 21 million will, then it cannot grow with the economy.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:38:21)) - - And then what this can do is create deflation and depression. And I would like to adhere myself that each Bitcoin is already divided into 100 million tiny pieces called satoshis. And it might be able to be divided smaller than that eventually. But yeah, the Bitcoin critics won. It is quite a win for bitcoin, in my opinion, that this nascent digital asset that was only worth a few pennies 15 years ago when it came out, I mean, it was something that only cryptographers and digital geeks understood. Well, today you've got presidents discussing bitcoin. So it's certainly had some success just in branding and name recognition alone. That is just about a wrap from Freedom Fest this year here in Las Vegas, there were record breaking temperatures outside in the Mojave Desert in the middle of summer. Inside, it was a celebration of ideals like life, liberty, prosperity, and of course, freedom. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Wendel. Don't quit your day, dream.

Speaker 6** ((00:39:35)) - - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice.

Speaker 6** ((00:39:39)) - - Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss the host is operating on behalf of yet Rich education LLC exclusively.

Keith Weinhold** ((00:40:03)) - - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get rich education.com.
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510: Garage Real Estate, Minted Not Printed
15 jul· Get Rich Education
Learn how garages and parking areas add value to property. Find out how to earn more rent for your garage space.

Adding a garage to a rental doesn’t fetch much more rent income. But you will rent your place faster and tenants stay longer.

To get more rent for a detached garage, rent it to an off-site tenant.

The future of parking and garages is positioned to be shaken by autonomous cars. Fewer people will need to own or park cars.

Meet me in-person at the next New Orleans Investment Conference. It’s November 20th - 23rd, 2024. Register here.

Brien Lundin joins us. He is the host of the world’s longest-running investment conference, the New Orleans Investment Conference. He’s also editor of Gold Newsletter.

He & I discuss inflation, interest rates, real estate, and gold.

Gold is up 20%+ annually. This is because foreign nations, like China, are beginning to prefer to own gold rather than US debt.

There’s a case for interest rates to go higher, another case for them to go lower.

Brien tells us why he believes the gold price will keep rising.

Increasingly, asset values are positively correlated—real estate, stocks, gold, crypto, oil, and even collectibles.

Personally, though I don’t see evidence that gold builds wealth, history shows that it’s a good place to store wealth.

Meet me in-person at the next New Orleans Investment Conference. It’s November 20th - 23rd, 2024. Register here.

Resources mentioned:

Meet me in-person at the next New Orleans Investment Conference. It’s November 20th - 23rd, 2024.

Register here.

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RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

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Complete episode transcript:

Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE! I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Learn about garage real estate, how garages and parking add value to your property, and how to get more rent for the garage. Then we go from micro to macro. As we talk about the enduring value of a real asset that's minted, not printed, and another chance to meet me in person today and Get Rich Education.

Robert Syslo (00:00:27) - Since 2014, the powerful get Rich education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate, investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show host Keith Weinhold, who writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad Advisors and delivers a new show every week. Since 2014, there's been millions of listeners downloads and 188 world nations. He has A-list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get Rich education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus it has its own dedicated Apple and Android listener.

Robert Syslo (00:01:01) - Phone apps build wealth on the go with the get Rich education podcast. Sign up now for the get Rich education podcast or visit get Rich education.com.

Keith Weinhold (00:01:29) - Welcome to GRE! From Saint Augustine, Florida, to Saint Paul, Minnesota, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold, and you're listening to get Rich education as we cover a component of property that's a little talked about, garages and we're a real estate investing show. You learn about ways to optimize the rent income that a garage can produce for you, too. Now, if the home that you currently live in has a garage, it could be the entrance to the home that you use even more often than your own front door. That's how important and useful it's become. And understand that garages on homes, they didn't even exist until about 100 years ago, because that's when cars began to become popular. The emergence of the garage in American real estate is one reason for the downfall of the big front porch. You rarely see big porches on modern homes.

Keith Weinhold (00:02:26) - Interestingly, some of America's most successful companies began in garages, places where you have workbenches and can tinker around with things. Google and Nike were launched in garages, and it's also where people store lots of things, sometimes so many things that they can't even get their car in there anymore. In fact, the word garage comes from the French garage. Spell that g a r e r meaning to store. But yeah, when cars became more popular in the 1920s and 1930s, that's when you begin to see garages. And then as cars got larger, garages got larger. And by the 1960s, as families began to own not just one car but 2 or 3 cars, garages became larger again, and a three car garage is pretty common today in a single family home, though it's rarely that big in a property that you're going to rent out. Now, if you've got a single family home and it does not have a garage and you want to make a garage addition. Well, you can only expect to recoup 65 to 80% of what you've spent.

Keith Weinhold (00:03:40) - So it is a money loser. Then it really doesn't make sense to add one to a rental, perhaps only your primary residence, since you get the benefit of using it yourself that way. And if you add a garage to a rental, you know you just really can't get that much more in rent for it. It's usually not worth it, although the financials can look better for a carport addition instead. Now, if you've got a rental with the garage rather than without one, it actually can help you get your place rented out faster. But a tenants really not going to pay you even as much as 10% more in overall rent in most every case. Yet see, what happens is that a tenant, they tend to fill up the garage with stuff, and therefore they tend to stay longer than if there were no garage. A garage is one reason that single family rentals see longer tenant durations then apartments. Now, if your property though, if it's in a built up area and there's little on street parking, oh well then the addition of a garage that could have more of an impact on the value of your property than it would out in the suburbs.

Keith Weinhold (00:04:53) - The garage does not count toward the square footage of a property because that's considered unfinished space. And your prospective tenant? They might not know that fact about the square footage. So that's something for you to keep in mind when you're advertising a home with a garage for rent. Now, older houses, they're more likely to have a detached garage is its own separate standalone structure that's built near the house. But you would have to walk outdoors in order to get from the house to the detached garage. In fact, the home that I grew up in and that my parents still live in in Pennsylvania has a detached garage. Their home was built around the year 1915, so more than 100 years ago, and my parent's garage also didn't have an automatic garage door opener for most of my life. I remember the big yank up that you'd have to make on the heavy door. So when my mom was about to back out of the garage when she was going to take me somewhere, what I would do is I would stand outdoors until she backed out so that I could open and then close the door by hand and then get in the car.

Keith Weinhold (00:06:06) - Gotta get those legs under it and enjoy one deep squat there, Well, one reason that old houses have garages often detached from the rest of the home is for risk of gasoline explosion. That's because back 100 years ago, gas was stored in the garage because gas stations were yet to be invented. So you've got this trail of detached garages left behind in older neighborhoods, and some people still prefer a detached garage. Now there's a way for you to get more rent income if you're renting out a single family home with a detached garage, and this isn't always going to be feasible based on how the property's set up. But the way to do it is for you to get an off site tenant to rent your garage. Oftentimes, the renter of your single family home, you know, they just don't have as high of an income as someone does that lives in an upper crust neighborhood that might have a lot of toys to store their, be it a boat or an antique car, or even an RV, perhaps.

Keith Weinhold (00:07:13) - Well, that off site renter in the better neighborhood, you know they're going to pay you to store their cars or their other stuff in your detached garage In that case, your rental home and garage would have two separate tenants, and you will enjoy more overall rent income than if one tenant was renting both the home and the detached garage. So what you really want to learn is you do your research though, is what laws cover the renting of a garage or a storage space because they typically fall outside the jurisdiction of landlord and tenant laws. But you need to verify that depending on your state or your area. Sometimes running a garage is the equivalent of renting a warehouse space, and the rules can be different when it comes to payment issues or other problems. And when you realize that some garages can even have dirt floors, you can see how different it is than a living space. Now, even if you're thinking about renting your garage to an offsite tenant. Most of the time making garage upgrades, it's just really not worth it.

Keith Weinhold (00:08:19) - But note that I said most of the time. On the other hand, if you can make it marketable, maybe you need to do something smaller, like add an automatic garage door opener if it doesn't have one, and then you'll have to run the numbers to see if that is worth it. Now, one mistake that I made out of property, it wasn't that first ever seminal fourplex that I owned, but the second fourplex that I owned there in that building, each tenant had a small, simple one car attached garage, and then as each four plex unit went vacant, I went in and painted the inside the walls and ceiling of all four garages with a fresh coat of paint, and I would learn later that was not a good use of my time. It didn't help me get any more in rent. No tenant is really even going to stay longer for fresh garage paint, but frankly, I'm just not a handyman. I don't know how to fix anything. So one of the few ways that I knew how to add value, I thought was rolling a paintbrush over the inside of garage walls like I know how to paint and not much else replacing a faucet.

Keith Weinhold (00:09:29) - Whoa, that right there. We're getting into, like, intimidating territory. Okay for me. In any case, duplexes in fourplex, they can often have garages, especially newer ones. And I think I mentioned to you here on the show before that I once owned an eight plex. It was a little quirky. It had a small single attached garage that was kind of on the end of the building. So eight units and just a one car garage. And actually this is a good example because those tenants, they paid about $1,500 for their unit, so none of them could really swing it. None of them could afford to pay an extra $400 for the garage. So again, the way to solve that is rent to a more affluent off site tenant. That's what I did. And I got 400 bucks. Now, understand something. When you're driving a neighborhood or you're looking on Google Maps, at times it can look like a home has a two car garage because you're only looking at the widths of the garage door.

Keith Weinhold (00:10:29) - But that can really be a three car garage because on one side, the garage bay goes two cars deep, so you can't always tell how many cars a garage can hold just by looking at the width of the garage door. One reason that developers in Hoa's actually like garages that are too deep is that way. The driveway is more narrow. When driveways are more narrow, that means there's less asphalt and more green space in neighborhoods. Now, in some places, it doesn't matter too much if the garage is full of stuff and you have to park in the driveway, but in a cold, snowy place, it really helps to park cars inside the garage. So garages are typically more valuable to residents in areas that have real winters. In an apartment building, it can help to have assigned spaces for tenants. When I bought apartments, I've always loved it to my property manager to figure out the space assignments and rental property. Upgrading and resurfacing parking areas is another money loser. Now, we don't want to be slumlords, but the truth is repaving and re striping a parking lot that might look nice.

Keith Weinhold (00:11:44) - You might do that. but the reality is that it will get you practically zero extra rent. Not a good ROI. Well, that's a take on garage's past and present. What about the future of garages and parking areas when it comes to the future? And this harkens back to episode 13 of this show. Yes, that's when I discussed driverless cars, also known as autonomous cars. Back in January of 2015, nine and a half years ago. Well, when autonomous cars become popular, which many expect will still happen, it's likely that fewer people are going to own cars at all. They will just have a car subscription. The autonomous car will pick you up and drop you off, and more people will convert their garages into living space like another bedroom. If that does indeed eventually happen. But autonomous car adoption has hit roadblocks since episode 13 of this show back in 2015, and that's generally because autonomous cars keep having accidents. Although Waymo is perhaps the one company that's made more headway lately, you're seeing their autonomous taxis in use in some cities right now.

Keith Weinhold (00:13:03) - Currently, a car spends 95% of its life being parked, but garages, parking lots, and parking garages are all poised to be less useful when fewer people own a car. Instead, these autonomous cars are just going to drop you off, pick you up, and then constantly stay moving. Stay out on the road rather than park at all. EVs are a factor here to electric vehicles. They can be thousands of pounds heavier than the average gas powered vehicle, and experts out there are warning that the extra weight from EVs that could cause older parking garages to collapse unless steps are taken to buttress those structures. I mean, that's a problem. If geotechnical and structural engineers didn't design EVs on older parking garages decades and decades ago parking lots, they have definitely fallen out of favor among some, but they are still building lots of them. Critics say that to have to build minimum parking spaces on new projects, well, that hinders new housing construction, and also encourages people to drive rather than take public transit parking lot.

Keith Weinhold (00:14:18) - Critics. They also argue that parking lots and garages, they fill up precious urban real estate with these sort of soulless, concrete eyesores, making cities more sprawling and less convenient. And you tend to see this more in cities west of the Mississippi River. In the east, you have more cities on gridded street patterns that are more dense because they were laid out and developed before cars took over and sprawled so many cities, but with as many changes that autonomous vehicles could bring to the parking world and make things like car ownership less important and car parking less important, I sure would ask a lot of questions before I invested in any sort of parking related real estate. Today we've been talking about real estate in the micro so far today. Garages and parking surely will pivot to the macro as we discuss an asset that's minted not printed. That's next. I'm Keith Weinhold, you're listening to episode 510 of get Rich education. Listen to this. Hey, you can get your mortgage loans at the same place where I get mine at Ridge Lending Group Nmls 42056.

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Robert Kiyosaki (00:17:08) - This is our rich dad, poor dad author Robert Kiyosaki. Listen to get Rich education with Keith wine old and there is I respect Kate is a very strong, smart, bright young man.

Keith Weinhold (00:17:26) - It's terrific to welcome into the show a man with decades of investment analysis experience that we can learn from. He's the executive editor of Gold Newsletter, and you might know him as host of America's longest running investment conference, the famed New Orleans Investment Conference. Hey, we haven't shedded in a minute. Welcome in Brien Lundin.

Brien Lundin (00:17:48) - Right? To be able to keep it has been a while too long.

Keith Weinhold (00:17:51) - That's right. And now you and I each span the real asset world. I'm a real estate guy. You spend a lot of your work in teaching over there on the gold side. And we both intersect with the general economy. And, you know, Brian, I think of the general economy is having a number of abnormalities.

Keith Weinhold (00:18:11) - Is it always does, but actually many normality to I mean, I've commented that there's actually relative normalcy in the fed funds rate and even mortgage rate levels. If you look at it historically, also home price appreciation rates, in rent appreciation rates, they're all close to historic norms, although the aberrations are probably more interesting to talk about. What are your thoughts on the economy's general direction?

Brien Lundin (00:18:37) - Yeah, you know, it really is weird. We think about today's interest rates and how high they are. And throughout human history, the natural level of interest rates have hovered around 6%. That's kind of what it's always been for thousands of years. So what we went through over the last 16 years or so was a really abnormal period, and even going back a decade or so before that. So yeah, it looks seems like interest rates are at normal levels. What is at abnormal levels, however, is the level of debt that we have today. And and that's been created after over four decades of ever easier money, ever since Volcker killed off inflation in the 1970s and started lowering rates, we see that whenever there was a recession, the Federal Reserve had the same prescription every time it lowered interest rates, and then it would try to raise them back, but could never get past the midpoint of the previous range before another recession would come back, or the markets would throw some kind of a fit in.

Brien Lundin (00:19:40) - The fed would then start easing again. And if you look over time, if you plot or draw a line at the bottom of every one of those interest cutting cycles, see that those bottoms of the cycles get progressively lower and lower. Till 2008, they hit zero. And then they tried to normalize it got up to 2.5% on the Fed's funds fund rate, and then had to go right back to zero at Covid. So the lesson to me is that things might seem normal if you look at the grand sweep of history, but they're anything but normal right now, and the debt loads that we have are so high they preclude anything resembling a normal interest rate. And in fact, my contention is that interest rates have to be below the rate of inflation. In other words, the currency has to depreciate at a faster rate than you're paying interest on these debts, or the whole house of cards collapses. So that's actually, while not good for the fiscal health of the US or other developed economies, it's actually good for the kind of tangible assets, real assets we are talking about real estate, gold, silver, monetary metals, even commodities.

Brien Lundin (00:20:52) - And, you know, everything across the board as far as tangible assets.

Keith Weinhold (00:20:56) - Yeah, we look at the long term history of interest rates 5 to 6% if If you go back hundreds of years or even thousands of years is a historic norm. The fed funds rate is now at about 5.3%. But yeah, I think what you're talking about is we seem to have a decreasing tolerance for what are really normal rates. Nothing abnormal about the rate. All that was abnormal was the rate of increase. And you know, one thing that I think about with the economy, Brian, that maybe people don't talk about enough. Is this labor shortage that we have? I mean, it is difficult to do get anyone to do my landscaping. Last year I stayed in a hotel where when I checked in, there was no human being at the check in desk. It was automated checking. Then last month, I stayed at a hotel where there was a human at the front desk, but they told me that there was not going to be any housekeeping during my state.

Keith Weinhold (00:21:46) - So the reason that I bring this up is that a chronic labor shortage that spells entrenched upward pressure on inflation, because you have to offer higher wages to lure in workers and higher wages paid mean higher consumer prices, higher rents, more inflation and persistently high rates to combat that.

Brien Lundin (00:22:07) - Yeah, absolutely. And you bring up a whole nother factor that very few people consider as demographics. You know, the fertility rate in the US is below the replacement rate. It's about 1.7 now, and it would have to be like 2.1. And as they say, demographics is destiny. We're not the only ones by any means. Japan went over the demographic cliff long ago. We're following all the other developed nations are as well. And in 20 or 30 years the global population will be falling. That brings about a lot of other pressures and real estate. Obviously you have, you know, the baby boomers are going to be downsizing if they can find something to move into. Besides a retirement home, had a decent mortgage rate.

Brien Lundin (00:22:50) - You know, we have so much overhang in real estate that's sitting out there and locked up by the current interest rate. So yeah, it's an interesting dynamic we're in right now. And personally I think it's all just a result of the Federal Reserve and all these other monetary mavens whose PhDs I want to pull all these levers on the economy. And they have unintended consequences in every one of the policies that they undertake. And we're in one right now.

Keith Weinhold (00:23:20) - We've got both inflation and a scarce supply of property that just keeps floating property values higher despite higher mortgage rates. And one place that the high inflation is often reflected is in the price of gold. Gold is up more than 20% year over year. And one thing I want to ask you about here, with regard to gold and the fact that we have this debt that you brought up earlier, Brian, is a real problem. When we look outside the US, the world's biggest economy is by far China. China has been dumping US treasuries, meaning basically that they're no longer buying our US IOUs so they no longer want our debt.

Keith Weinhold (00:23:59) - And instead, China and other nations are increasingly parking it in gold. Now, is that one of the reasons that gold has surged?

Brien Lundin (00:24:07) - Yeah, it is the primary reason. Or, you know, one of the primary factors why gold has surged this year in particular. And it's a weird mix of buying. This year. We saw the gold price start taking off like the 1st of March. And it was for the first six weeks or so. It was literally a relentless rise, not a down day. Setting new price records every day. And it took us a while to try and figure out or to figure out where the buying was coming from. And as it turns out, it was the result of continued buying by central banks renewed buying to an even greater degree by the people's Bank of China, and also some domestic demand from China. And that's something we had never seen before. We'd never seen Chinese investors and savers buying gold on the way up in a price trend. They usually bought on a price downtrend trying to get a bargain, but now they were following the price up.

Brien Lundin (00:25:06) - So that contributed to everything and the factor that we had expected that did not come about in the first half of the year was a fed pivot. You know, if you look back in December, yeah, the markets are pricing in 5 or 6 fed rate cuts in 2024. And that kept getting postponed. And that was expected. I expected in most of the other analysts expected the beginning of fed rate cuts to really drive the price up higher, but it kept getting postponed. That big factor is still ahead of us. I think the markets are going to start pricing that in in a couple of months. And so what all that central bank buying and Chinese buying is done is while we were waiting for the fed to pivot in that big factor, it went ahead and added $300 to the gold price and got us into a new trading range so that when the fed pivot does hit, we're lifting off from a much higher level. So it's a good time, I think, to be an investor in gold and related assets.

Brien Lundin (00:26:07) - I think it's also a good time to be involved in real estate and a lot of other tangible and real assets, as.

Keith Weinhold (00:26:13) - Well as real estate investors we are interested in that interest rate direction. And, you know, if the US is continually finding themselves in a position where they're wondering, well, hey, if not China and others will, then who in the heck is going to buy our debt? And now you? I think the listener you can ask yourself in the same way, if you're trying to get your friends to give you a loan, How do you entice your friends to give you a loan? You would offer them a higher interest rate in order for them to give you a loan. So with that in mind, Brian, is that what the US has to do in order to entice foreign bondholders in the same way, meaning then debt rates would tend to be held high?

Brien Lundin (00:27:01) - Very interesting point there, Keith, because getting back what I was saying, how these PhD economists are pulling all the levers on the economy, the lever they're about to pull is to start lowering rates again, because they recognize these debt loads, they recognize the possibility of a recession, and that if there is a recession and tax receipts fall, then the debt load is going to accelerate even further.

Brien Lundin (00:27:26) - So they feel that policy right now is very restrictive. And they're going to start lowering rates at some point. They have to. But the debt loads being what they are, however you have on the other hand, the bondholders are, which you would hope would be the buyers of the Treasury securities, and they will look and see the potential economic slowdowns. They had the potential for higher inflation and start demanding higher returns on their yields. So there is a tension there. We saw that develop last October, November timeframe and a few months ago when we saw Treasury yields rise at the same time that the dollar index rose versus other currencies and gold was rising, which was a weird kind of strange bedfellows there that typically gold does not rise when interest rates are rising and the dollar is strengthening. But they were all going up together, and that happened a bit last fall as well. To my mind, that is a reflection of safe haven buying. You know, typically we think Treasury yields fall when they're safe haven buying because everybody's going into treasuries.

Brien Lundin (00:28:36) - To me that was reflective of safe haven buying because the markets were really concerned about the fiscal future for the US and other developed countries. So they were going to the safety of the dollar, the safety of gold and demanding higher yields on treasuries. That would be more commensurate with the kind of inflation rate that they saw ahead. But it's been a weird mix of buying a weird mix of economic developments, and I think it all argues toward big money getting more and more into gold because of the uncertainty that lies ahead, and the really the extraordinary nature of the current economic situation to the world we find ourselves in now.

Keith Weinhold (00:29:21) - I did not realize that there is less sensitivity to higher gold prices until I just learned that from you a few minutes ago. So that's really interesting about potential momentum in the future price of gold. And we talk about the future price of gold. We think of that through a supply and demand lens, much like we think about what's moving real estate prices today. Have we hit peak gold, meaning that there's less and less of it to pull out of the ground?

Brien Lundin (00:29:49) - All of the trends in that respect actually favor gold and that we have reached peak gold production as around 32,300 tonnes a year.

Brien Lundin (00:30:00) - Interestingly, a third of that level is being purchased now by China between the people's Bank of China and Chinese citizens. So a good bit of that is taken off. But I'm not a big proponent for the validity or the impact of supply and demand for gold, because it is monetary demand that really drives the price of gold. It has no utility, virtually no utility and industry. It is purely a monetary metal. So when people are concerned about the future purchasing power of the currency, they buy gold and they drive the price up, and that buying on the margin really sets the price of gold. And I think we're about to enter one of those periods where gold really plays catch up for long sweeps of time. You'll see the gold price doesn't do much until something happens. Things get bad to a certain degree where people really start to worry about their purchasing power, and then gold makes a huge catch up move. Really, in the early stages of that kind of a catch up ketchup move, I believe.

Brien Lundin (00:31:06) - I think we're entering a period that would be akin to the 1970s and the 2000, where the price of gold has historically gone up anywhere between five and a half and eight and a half times over during these kinds of secular bull markets. And I think we're in one of those periods right now.

Keith Weinhold (00:31:25) - Five and a half to eight x.

Brien Lundin (00:31:27) - Yeah. If you look at the fact that there's only been three bull markets in gold since 1971, when it actually became, you know, an investable asset or commodity and not money. So 1970 to 75 was a bull market of 76 to 1980 with a bull market. And really, 2000 to 2011 was another bull market run. And each of those instances, each of those three bull markets, gold went up from 25.6 to 8.2 times from the lows. And this market we're in now, the low is about $1,040. So if the price of gold goes up trading 5.6 and 8.2 times, you're talking about 6 to $8000 gold price at the end of this cycle, wherever and whenever that takes us.

Brien Lundin (00:32:17) - And of course, you know, we're up around 2300 and change right now. So that's a good move ahead. Lots of potential. And it's not just where the price of gold goes, but all the associated assets worth it, like mining stocks and the like are going to do, I think, very well over the next few years.

Keith Weinhold (00:32:36) - Yeah. People know gold is the classic inflation hedge. But to your point, it has a lot to do with catching a wave. If you think the real long term diminished purchasing power of the dollar is 3 or 4% over time. Well, you don't see gold go up gradually at 3 or 4% per year for several years. You tend to see it do little or nothing, and then it has this big catch up phase, like those periods of time that you talked about. When we talk about physically holding on to gold, you know, it's cool. It's one of those type of investments where if you do hold it yourself, there's no login or password to access your goal that is physical, intangible.

Keith Weinhold (00:33:10) - And you know, Brad, one thing that a lot of gold people often talk about is a positive attribute to holding gold is that it has zero counterparty risk when it's yours. No one can take it from you. But does it really have no counterparty risk? Because I think about if a person wants to hold physical gold, well, if they outsource it to a third party vault or a bank safe deposit box, then the counterparty risk is there. But if they hold it onto themselves and store it in their own home, which I don't know if that's a good idea, but if they choose to do so, well then the counterparty risk is the thief. So I think gold is a great way to store wealth, but is there really zero counterparty risk associated with gold?

Brien Lundin (00:33:48) - Well, from that standpoint, there's never a zero risk. There's never a zero risk. When you step out of your door in the morning, either, you know, there's always some risk. You can mitigate the risk. And it reminds me of of what I tell people when they're really new to the sector is there are two reasons to buy gold.

Brien Lundin (00:34:04) - One is as insurance and one is as an investment. And insurance is what you need to worry about right away because you're insuring against something you know is going to happen. If you feel like 3 to 5 years, the dollar's purchasing power, it's going to be much less than it is today. I think we can all agree in most likely is then by buying gold today, you lock in today's value of the dollar because gold will make that up, and perhaps even more so, it will protect you against that depreciation. So you can ensure your wealth by holding some physical metals. And I think that's the most important thing you can do, at least initially, is get silver and gold. Now, as far as storing it, a lot of people can store enough gold in their house to gain a good bit of insurance against whatever their wealth is. And by that, you know you will have to invest in a safe. Don't tell anybody about where it is and a good alarm system. And if you haven't and a location where you have a good police force, then you're talking about 20 minutes that somebody's going to get in your home before the police come and knocking, and hopefully they can't find the safe, much less get into it in that amount of time so you can do it in your house to some degree.

Brien Lundin (00:35:16) - You can store it elsewhere, but there are important considerations there. They're very respected storage facilities and the like. You don't want to store it in a bank because one of the things you're insuring against is a bank holiday, thanks to like you to store it there either, but you can find respected institutions to store it. I recommend people don't put all the eggs in one basket and store it with a number of institutions, or as many as they can practically do. But yeah, it is important to own the metals, you know. Otherwise you're going to lose from here. On the day that you decide not to buy gold and silver to protect your wealth from that day on, you're accepting a rate of purchasing power depreciation that we know is considerably more than what the government says it is, and is historically high to begin with.

Keith Weinhold (00:36:09) - I generally think it's a good idea to own at least a little gold if you have trepidation about buying gold. Think of it this way in a way you're not buying gold, You're transferring some of your prosperity over into gold, which has had lasting value for millennia, across cultures and across generations.

Keith Weinhold (00:36:28) - And for some reason, I think a lot of people my age and younger that they don't own any gold. I would imagine that 90% plus of people, I think the statistics are out there. 97% of Americans don't own any gold. And maybe you feel like you don't understand gold and you don't want to own what you don't understand. But you could purchase this a 10th of an ounce of gold for under $300. And you know, by buying just a little bit, you begin to get a vested interest in this stuff. So with that in mind, Brian, how much do you think one should allocate and in what form should they make their purchase?

Brien Lundin (00:37:02) - It's interesting. There have been studies for many years showing that the highest risk adjusted return you can get in a diversified portfolio with about 5% of your wealth, or your investing portfolio allocated to go to heaven. Those same studies done that are indicating more like 10% or more. It's to the point that you sleep well at night, whatever makes you comfortable.

Brien Lundin (00:37:27) - But you know all of those studies back test it and they look back and see how gold and a portfolio meshes with the six, the classic 6040 mix of stocks and bonds etc.. But what we've seen over the last 12, 14 years is that post the 2008 great financial crisis is that all of these asset classes have become more and more positively correlated because everything's dependent on the Federal Reserve and monetary policy. So all of the correlations have started to trend toward one, where they all rise and fall together in unison. Because everything, again, is just depends on monetary policy and the flow of liquidity from the Federal Reserve and other central banks. So that fact alone argues for even a greater holding in gold, because all of that portends greater and greater inflation, greater monetary accommodation, and the kind of thing that gold insures against. So the way to look at gold as insurance is not quite like home insurance. You know, you buy home insurance, you pay the premium every year in case your house catches on fire.

Brien Lundin (00:38:38) - But you really don't expect your house to catch on fire. With gold. You're buying insurance. You're paying the premium, perhaps just once, and you're insuring against something that you know is going to happen, that the purchasing power of your dollars are going to depreciate. So if you have a significant cash balance in accounts, you might as well put it into precious metals and lock in the current rate before it gets the purchasing power of the dollar depreciates even further.

Keith Weinhold (00:39:06) - That is a good point with gold as money insurance from the standpoint that with your homeowner's insurance and your landlord's insurance policy, you need to pay a premium annually. You potentially only need to pay that once upfront when you purchase your gold, and there's typically a spot price differential to overcome. Well, Brian, you are the host of America's longest running investment conference, which is founded on championing American's right to own gold. The New Orleans Investment Conference. It really feels like there is a touch of prestige when you're there. I can speak to that personally because I've attended it at least three times in the past.

Keith Weinhold (00:39:47) - It's coming up in November. I hope to attend again this year. You've got some illustrious speakers there. Tell us about this year's New Orleans Investment Conference.

Brien Lundin (00:39:58) - Yeah, it is our 50th anniversary. You know, I think it's the oldest investment conference in the world today and longest running. And we do have that legacy, that prestige of being somewhat gold oriented. We're actually covering a good bit more real estate lately, but we really cover a lot of the macro picture macroeconomics. We have some of the leading thinkers come to our vet every year and a great audience as well. Very highly qualified, very successful investors. This year is up 50th. So we have another wonderful roster of speakers. We have Jim Grant coming, George Gammon, James Lavish, Danielle DiMartino Booth, Britt Johnson, Abby Gilbert, Adam Taggart, the list goes on and on. Rick Rule, Peter Boockvar, dozens and dozens of top minds. And, you know, we kind of alluded to it in this talk, but these are really strange and interesting and dangerous, extraordinary times that we're living through right now.

Brien Lundin (00:41:02) - And it is amazing to me, having been in the business for 9 to 40 years now, seeing these kinds of periods come and go. And it seems that when they do happen, we get this kind of underground media that arises, and people who really bring in losses come to the fore to comment on what's going on and provide really valuable insights. And after all the years I've been in this business, I know who really contributes value, who the best thinkers are, and I'm getting them all to come to New Orleans. As I have to say, I'm a big fan of all of our speakers. I think they are absolutely extraordinary, and we are so confident that you will find our event to be worth many times the cost of attending, that we have a money back guarantee. If you don't think it does, if you don't think it's worth many times what you paid for, we'll give you registration feedback. So it's very few events that can offer a guarantee like that. And I think you would agree with me that you have to be there to really experience it.

Brien Lundin (00:42:07) - And it really is just an extraordinary experience.

Keith Weinhold (00:42:11) - Yeah, I can't imagine anyone not getting a multiple on their investment with attending the conference. You know, one thing that you do really well there at the conference, Brian, besides just listening to all those speakers that you just mentioned, you also have panel format discussions where sometimes you can learn more when you're listening to a conversation than you can when you're listening to a presentation. You have both choices there. Then if you prefer you want to break, you can go across the hallway to where the exhibit hall is and do some learning and meeting people over there. And then you also have these breakout sessions where you go upstairs into small rooms and learn from presenters in just the niche that you think most interests you or that you want to learn more about. So there's really good variety there.

Brien Lundin (00:42:54) - Yeah, it's kind of a time tested format. It's different than most conferences you'll find out there, but it's worked well for us for 49 years, and our attendees seem to appreciate the unique format that we have and the ability to learn.

Brien Lundin (00:43:09) - And it really is information almost overload. There's so much of value from these speakers. If you are intellectually curious, if you are a serious investor, if you enjoy an intellectually stimulating environment in a destination location, this is really the place for you. And you know, I can go on over and over again for as long as we have time for and more to say talking about it. But the best advertising we do are people who word of mouth from people who have come. And I would encourage anyone who is considering coming to the New Orleans Investment Conference. Number one, this is our 50th anniversary. It's going to be a very special year. But number two, find somebody who's been before. Talk to them about it. And I think you'll get excited about attending this year.

Keith Weinhold (00:43:56) - Each year it is at an excellent location. It's at the New Orleans, Riverside Hilton and Bryan Terrace, those November dates for the event and then how one can attend.

Brien Lundin (00:44:07) - Yeah, it's November 20th to 23rd this year, so it's the week before us Thanksgiving week.

Brien Lundin (00:44:14) - So it's it doesn't interfere with that holiday. It's kind of a good little slot there. And people can learn more by going to one New Orleans conference.com. Very simply New Orleans conference.com.

Keith Weinhold (00:44:29) - All right. It's been great catching up on the state of the economy, real estate inflation, interest rates, gold. And thank you so much for putting on this terrific conference for the benefit of every interested investor. It's been great having you back on the show.

Brien Lundin (00:44:43) - Wonderful to talk to you again, Keith, as always.

Keith Weinhold (00:44:52) - Oh, yeah. Bright, inarticulate thoughts from Brian, as always, when he and I discussed those related factors of inflation and interest rates. I mean, this is such a germane discussion because, like he brought up, there seems to be this increasing propensity for all asset classes to rise or fall together. Like nearly every asset class is near an all time high right now. I'll need to research the incidence of this some more so that it's not just anecdotal, but the Fed's decisions. They seem to increasingly float up or knock down just about every investment class almost simultaneously.

Keith Weinhold (00:45:35) - Real estate stocks, gold, crypto commodities, collectible toys, even nearly everything. And when you're a real estate investor, you are already investing in commodities and metals, and you have direct ownership of those. Now, not so much precious metals in your real estate, but we're talking about items that are built into it, like aluminum and steel and copper. They probably exist in your properties. Well, their prices go into the replacement cost of your property, and they are a reflection of your real estate portfolio's overall value, too. Coming up here on future episodes of the show, it will be the inaugural appearance of the King of Commercial Real Estate here on the show. Also, there seems to be still a mainstream aversion to all debt types, and I suppose it finds me in the position of being real estate's debt proselytizing. Well, coming up on the show, I am going to ask and answer the question for you is any debt worth paying off? Which debts are good to pay down? Which stitch should be paid off, and which debt types do you want to keep, and which debt types do you actually want to get more of? What are the exact distinctions so that you know right where to draw that line on all the debt types that you hold on to.

Keith Weinhold (00:47:00) - So coming up here on the show, is any debt worth paying off? And I am pleased to tell you that if you would like to meet in person, yes, you're going to have a chance to do that at the special 50th anniversary of the New Orleans Investment Conference. Now, I'm not sure that meeting me in person really brings any benefit to you or the event, but yes, I am attending in person in New Orleans. I haven't been there since 2021 and I want to return. Brian London really knows how to put on an event. There is a lot of macroeconomic talk there and you will hear more about both that and gold than you will about real estate, although I expect plenty of real estate investing information there as usual. Again, it's November 20th to 23rd, four plus months away. And the registration link that you can use for this is in today's show notes. I will also get it into the next newsletter for you. Big thanks to the wise and wonderful Brien Lundin today. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Weinhold.

Keith Weinhold (00:48:03) - Don't quit your daydream.

Speaker 5 (00:48:09) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.

Keith Weinhold (00:48:37) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get Rich education.com.
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509: Legendary Investor Jim Rogers' Dire Warning on US Debt
8 jul· Get Rich Education
Asset prices are near all-time highs for almost everything: real estate, stocks, gold, bitcoin, and more. This is because in a wave of high inflation, investors chase yields.

Legendary investor Jim Rogers joins us.

Jim gives dire warnings about US debt levels.

Meet me and one of our Investment Coaches in-person at FreedomFest in Las Vegas, July 10th to 13th.

I put $1T into perspective. A trillion seconds ago was 31,700 years ago. That’s when neanderthals roamed the plains of Europe.

The dollar is a monopoly. The US government has no competition for their product, the dollar.

Jim Rogers believes that higher inflation and interest rates are here to stay.

He says: “Before this is over, interest rates in the US are going to go much, much higher.”

Resources mentioned:

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RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE

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Invest with Freedom Family Investments.

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Complete episode transcript:

Keith Weinhold (00:00:01) - Welcome to GRE. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. I'll tell you about a chance to meet me in person. Then we're joined by a renowned and legendary investor for his sage like wisdom on how you should respond to record US debt levels for forecast the future direction of inflation and interest rates, plus a taste of the Singapore real estate market today and get rich education.

Robert Syslo (00:00:27) - Since 2014, the powerful Get Rich Education podcast has created more passive income for people than nearly any other show in the world. This show teaches you how to earn strong returns from passive real estate, investing in the best markets without losing your time being a flipper or landlord. Show host Keith Weinhold writes for both Forbes and Rich Dad Advisors, and delivers a new show every week. Since 2014, there's been millions of listeners downloads and 188 world nations. He has A-list show guests include top selling personal finance author Robert Kiyosaki. Get Rich Education can be heard on every podcast platform, plus has had its own dedicated Apple and Android listener. Phone apps.

Robert Syslo (00:01:02) - Build wealth on the go with the Get Rich Education podcast. Sign up now for the get Rich education podcast or visit get Rich education.com.

Corey Coates (00:01:13) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is get rich education.

Keith Weinhold (00:01:29) - Welcome to GRE. From Sydney, Australia, to Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada, and across 188 nations worldwide. I'm Keith Weinhold and you're listening to Get Rich Education. Why are our values of almost every asset so high? Well, one reason is because we've had that high wave of inflation. When that happens, savvy investors, people just like you, they ensure that money must flow into assets. And that's because you seek a real return above and beyond inflation. If inflation were low, investors wouldn't have to chase yields this way. I've got more on asset values in a moment. But first, on today's guest, legendary investor Jim Rogers, who will hear from as a returning guest here soon in early 2019. So more than five years ago, he told us right here on the show that interest rates are going to go much, much, much higher over the next few decades and that is going to ruin a lot of people.

Keith Weinhold (00:02:32) - In fact, let's listen into that. Here it is. This is from get Rich education podcast episode 224, which you heard here in January 2019. This is Jim Rogers.

Jim Rogers (00:02:43) - And interest rates are going to go go much, much, much higher over the next few decades. And it's going to ruin a lot of people.

Keith Weinhold (00:02:50) - And then from there, he went on to tell us at that time, rising interest rates will set in for a long time. And this was back when the fed funds rate was just half of what it is today in mortgage rates were 4.5% back there in early 2019. So Jim Rogers made that firm prediction even before we knew about Covid. Then. And on that episode, we talked about getting your debt and locking it in. And then two years later in 2021, he was back here on the show to warn us to expect high inflation. Well, we sure got that too. And as you listen to Jim Rogers on today's episode, consider that, you know, he just often speaks with this sort of, I suppose, nonchalance that I think can make it easy to dismiss what he says.

Keith Weinhold (00:03:46) - But don't do that because countless people have benefited from his guidance for decades. Just like I hope that you do today in the real estate world. Now, agencies agree that the national year over year home price appreciation rate is 6%. That's today per the FHFA, the NAR and Case-Shiller 6% home price appreciation. What about rents? Today, Single-Family rents are up 5%. Nationally, multifamily rents up 2.7%. So why are Single-Family rents growing faster than multifamily rents? Well, it's partly because 2023 saw the biggest surge in new apartment supply since 1987. Yes, that's back when Madonna was the hottest music artist and Reagan met with Gorbachev. But there's less apartment construction this year, so expect a lot of that to get absorbed. Available inventory of Single-Family Rentals is going to stay more scarce than apartments for quite some time, but long term they both expect to be in really great shape. Residential rental demand is sustainable now. Back in 2022, available single family home inventory that was an astoundingly paltry one quarter of what was needed.

Keith Weinhold (00:05:20) - Well, now it's up to half. Some inventory has definitely been added. In fact, I was recently on television being asked about that. But this still means that demand handily exceeds supply. There's not nearly enough housing, especially on the single family end. And what about those perpetually just around the corner, always, constantly just around the corner, fed interest rate cuts. They keep getting delayed beyond a lot of people's expectations. Well, per the CME's Fed Watch tool, here is the chance given of when the first rate cut will occur by the end of July. 10% September 60th 4%. November 70th 7% December 90th 3%. You know, personally, I think the chances are lower than all of those currently inflation's at 3.3%. But here's the thing. Even when it hits the Fed's target of 2%, that doesn't mean that rates must be cut. All right. That's a reality that a lot of people seem to forget. Now here on the show, not after every quarter, but sometimes when a quarter ends, just like one did a week ago, we take a quick look at other asset class moves outside of real estate in order to get a relative perspective.

Keith Weinhold (00:06:43) - Some comparison here. If you're listening to this episode ten years from now, this is really going to help mark this era for you to is we do have many listeners that listen to every single episode. The 30 year mortgage rate is near 7%. Now, all these next figures are year to date through the first half of the year. So this is just the performance of the first half. Stocks have soared. The S&P is up 15%. One way that US stocks changed last quarter is the trades are now going to settle faster. Investors will see their purchases and sales finalized in just one day instead of two. Gold is up 13% to over 2300 bucks. Bitcoin up 44%, oil up 16% to $82. And again, that's performance for just the first half of this year. The world's three largest companies Apple, Microsoft and Nvidia have a combined value of over $9 trillion. Now, a company's total value is known as its market cap, and that is simply found by multiplying share price and shares outstanding. By comparison, all the gold in the world is worth 15 trillion.

Keith Weinhold (00:07:54) - Hey, if you're familiar with an event called Freedom Fest, I have some cool news for you. It's an annual conference that. How would I describe it? Well, I haven't attended it before, but there you can learn to expect more about free thinking and ideas about the size of government. Well, it starts in two days. It's July 10th to 13th in Las Vegas. You can meet one of Gre's investment coaches in person there and you can also meet me. Yes, we'll both be there. If you see us, be sure to say hi. We'd both like to meet you. Hashtag IRL in real life, some of the Freedom Fest speakers include our frequent great guest, Robert Kiyosaki, as well as some other guests that you've heard with me here on the show. Also, Steve Forbes, Iced Tea, the comedian Rob Schneider, Nevada Governor Joe Lombardo, Whole Foods founder John Mackey and the congressman that wants to end the fed, Thomas Massie and more. They're all speaking. So yes, not a lot of notice, but if you're going, it's a way to meet me in real life, perhaps just in a casual way, in two days at Freedom Fest.

Keith Weinhold (00:09:08) - Well, it is public information that the net worth of this week's guest is $300 million. He's been influential for a long time. Let's talk to legendary investor Jim Rogers. This week's guest needs a little introduction. He is a legendary business and investing mogul of our time. He's a Yale educated, prolific author. He co-founded the Quantum Fund, and he even has his own commodities index and ETF. He's also a prolific traveler. He wrote a very well known book about his world travels, visiting some 116 nations. Hey, welcome back to gray. It's Jim Rogers.

Jim Rogers (00:09:51) - I'm delighted to be here. Okay, let's get rich. I need to get rich. I want to get rich.

Keith Weinhold (00:09:56) - Hey. Well, your guidance helps us do that. That's why you're here. And Jim is joining us remotely from his home nation city of Singapore today. And it's always interesting syncing up our times of day here. Jim, where to begin? You've been with us here. I think this is the fourth time you're here and about the last five years, and we're at a time when asset prices of seemingly everything are near their all time highs, maybe even in their inflation adjusted all time highs in some cases.

Keith Weinhold (00:10:25) - What are your thoughts with asset price levels?

Jim Rogers (00:10:29) - Keith. You it's very perceptive of you and insightful. Yes. This is one of the few times in world history that I know about where nearly everything is making new eyes. I think China is probably the only country. It's not making new eyes, but nearly everything else is. Now it's wonderful. It's great. A lot of people are having a lot of fun, but unfortunately, I've been around long enough to know that when things get this good, when everybody's having so much fun, we're getting closer to the end. I am not selling short or anything yet, but I see the signs that this is going to come to an end, as it always does, and it's going to be a mess. And the reason this is going to be a big mess this time. You remember what happened in 2008 because of too much debt each. That's 2009. The debt everywhere has skyrocketed. I mean, even China has a lot of debt now. China bailed us out before, but everybody has a lot of debt now.

Jim Rogers (00:11:31) - Maybe not North Korea, but everybody else does.

Keith Weinhold (00:11:34) - And that sure includes us. I mean, we have these asset prices at all time highs. Yet here we are, still the largest detonation in the history of the world in the United States now at 35 trillion. And we're spending dollars on others wars, something that we couldn't say when you and I talked a few years ago. The biggest line item of our national budget anymore is about $1 trillion in annual interest payments alone in. Jim, we're really on this course now where soon the US annual tax receipts won't even cover the interest payments on our debt, and we may have to borrow just to pay the interest. So where do we reach the breaking point here? With this world in debt led by the United States?

Jim Rogers (00:12:20) - You one makes some very good points. Unfortunately. I wish you didn't. I wish you couldn't make those points right. It's simple arithmetic. Just look at the numbers. And the numbers you recite are just what they admit, what they write.

Jim Rogers (00:12:34) - There's a lot of off balance sheet debt that they don't even talk about. I mean, the numbers, if you try to get out of pencil on a piece of paper, you will realize that the market can never pay this debt. Never. Countries that have gotten into this situation in the past have had big problems. Now it's a good time to be an old American. I don't have to worry about all this for too many years, but I have young children. Oh my gosh. The problem is that their country is going to face in their lifetime. I was staggering. You look back at previous countries that have done this kind of thing. In the 19 to 100 years ago, Britain was the richest, most powerful country in the world. 50 years later, it was bankrupt. IMF had to fly to London and pay their bills. It wasn't fun. It was terrible what Britain went through. But other countries have done the same thing. Maybe we don't like what I'm saying or what's happening, but just read the history and you will see how it winds up.

Jim Rogers (00:13:38) - I certainly don't like it, but I have to deal with facts. If I don't deal with facts, I'll go bankrupt. To which I don't want to do.

Keith Weinhold (00:13:48) - Yeah, sometimes let's laugh to keep from crying. Right? When you talk about how certain government figures are just what the government is willing to admit to, I think that's the right lens to look through. When you look at any government figures. Well, at least that's the part that they're willing to admit to. It's interesting that they're willing to admit to this is interesting that they're willing to admit to 9% inflation like we peaked at two years ago. But when you talk about the future and this huge debt load and children or grandchildren, could austerity be part of it, something that's very politically unpopular. But if we lived in an austere state, wouldn't that really be sort of like the downfall of the American empire at that point?

Jim Rogers (00:14:30) - Well, that's what happened to the British. As I said 100 years ago, they were the richest, most powerful country in the world.

Jim Rogers (00:14:36) - There was no number two. Then if two years later, completely bankrupt, I happened to be in England during part of that time and it was a mess. Wretched. So I don't like saying any of this, but I have to deal with the reality and the numbers you cite or what they admit. You know, the numbers are much worse. I don't know if anybody in Washington really knows. I don't even know if they care enough to check to see how bad things are. But every time a someone from Washington, a politician or a bureaucrat says something, they say, don't worry, everything's okay. We have a Janet Yellen who's a secretary of the Treasury. Are you or two ago said, don't worry, we have everything under control.

Keith Weinhold (00:15:20) - Reassuring isn't it? Not really.

Jim Rogers (00:15:22) - Oh my gosh. He's got a couple of fancy Ivy League degrees, but she still says, don't worry, it's okay. Well, I worry, I'm probably not as smart as she is, but I worry.

Keith Weinhold (00:15:36) - Well, it's interesting that you bring up the fact about the things that we don't know and these numbers, these debt levels and even the deficit gets so big, we're just throwing around this word trillion anymore.

Keith Weinhold (00:15:48) - For some perspective, I happen to know that 1,000,000,000,000 seconds is 31,700 years. In order to help put this into perspective, well, 31,700 years ago, that's just about as far back as when the planes of Europe were being roamed by Neanderthals. That's 1,000,000,000,000 seconds ago. And again, we are $35 trillion in debt, and we have a deficit of at least $1 trillion. The annual thing.

Jim Rogers (00:16:21) - I'm glad you're putting some perspective on this, but I don't need it. I know it's a staggering whatever number you want to look at, whether it's the one they report or the one that's they hide whatever it is, I know, because I can add and subtract. I know that America has a gigantic problem that is going to end up like every other country that's done this sort of thing. It's going to end up badly. America is going to lose its status, not this month. Don't worry. July is okay. But no, I can read, I can add, I can subtract. I know how it's going to wind up.

Jim Rogers (00:17:02) - It's not good for young Americans.

Keith Weinhold (00:17:06) - I mean, we think of the fall of the Roman Empire. You bring up the UK. The UK is still part of the G7, but they're no longer the one predominant power in the world. Jim, when I look at history and I think about sort of the powers that be and how they create and debase the currency, and how those problems percolate into so many parts of the society. I think if the United States is basically they have a monopoly on creating currency, and I just wonder if that's part of the problem. Lennar builds houses, but they have competition from KB homes. John Deere makes tractors and they have competition from New Holland. Heinz makes ketchup and they have competition from hunts. See, when there's competition, there's sort of this incentive to produce quality and provide others with value. But since the U.S. has no substantial competition to the dollar, I wonder if we can think of this as a de facto monopoly from its dilution of the purchasing power of the dollar.

Keith Weinhold (00:18:06) - Its quality is suffering because the dollar doesn't have any substantial competition. So I guess what I'm leading up to, what I'm getting at, is we think about currency creation as a de facto US monopoly. I mean, does the government have to be the exclusive money printer where all this just ends up in the debt column here?

Jim Rogers (00:18:24) - You raise some very good points. But back to the first main point. The main point is there is no way that America can ever pay these debts except by default, Which is one horrible way. Or by printing gigantic amounts of money, which is another horrible way. This is not the first time countries have done this. If you just go back and look, it is never ended well. Never ended well. Yes, England is still there, but nobody thinks about England the way they did 100 years ago. And nobody in England lives like they did 100 years ago, and many people left. I don't know what's going to happen to the US, except I know it's not going to end well because I can add and you can add and subtract.

Jim Rogers (00:19:15) - I wish we could subtract. There's nothing to subtract because the debt just keeps high and higher and higher. And the numbers are very simple. If you get out the amount of debt we have and see the possible income, it just doesn't work. If you have fifth grade education, fifth grade arithmetic, you know it doesn't work.

Keith Weinhold (00:19:39) - Jim, I don't know if you remember this, but the first time you were with us, it was January of 2019. That was more than five years ago. And at that time you said interest rates are going to go much, much, much higher. That was your direct quote, three matches. And you said that it's going to ruin a lot of people. And here we are with a lot of people ruined in the commercial real estate world and the apartment syndication world and so on. So if you continue to think there's going to be more currency creation to make it easier to pay back our debt, does that mean you believe that higher interest rates and higher inflation are going to be a persistent condition, say, just till the end of this decade, which is about another five years? What do you think about inflation and interest rates for these next five years?

Jim Rogers (00:20:27) - I know that in Washington they will print money.

Jim Rogers (00:20:31) - That's all they know. They want to keep their jobs. They don't care about you. I don't care about any of us. They care about keeping their job. And they will do whatever they have to to keep their job the easy way. Now, the proper way, of course, is to buckle up, buckle down, and start doing something about the rendus situation we were in. They don't care. They think they'll be gone by the time those times come, if they're ever coming, and they will say, but we're America. We cannot have problems like that. Well, that's what the British said, too. Once upon a time. And as I say, there was no number two to the British. They were that power. They were that much on top. It's not that I don't like saying. I don't like thinking it. I don't like living with it. But I do hope I can prepare so that I don't go down the tubes like some other people will. But I may just do the arithmetic.

Jim Rogers (00:21:32) - It's very simple. The numbers just cannot work. I didn't say the numbers do not work. I said they cannot work because the situation is that dire. They can hold it off for a while by printing money. Great. But then not for you and me. Certainly not for our children.

Keith Weinhold (00:21:51) - I think that's all they're going to keep doing. That's the most expedient way to do it, to keep printing any politician that proposes austerity. And you having soup for breakfast, lunch and dinner is not very likely to get re-elected. Does that mean in the next five years you foresee historically elevated interest rates and inflation, which is basically where we actually still are now?

Jim Rogers (00:22:14) - Well, of course I do. I mean, there's the market. The problem is right now the central banks still think they're in control, and they pretty much are. But there will come a time. And there always has in history when the market says, wait a minute, we know you're lying. We know this cannot work. And then when the market takes over and the market starts setting interest rates and other conditions, that's called disaster.

Jim Rogers (00:22:41) - That's a real, real serious problem. The market will know how bad things are, and the Treasury secretary can sit there and say all day long, don't worry, don't worry. We have it under control. And the Marquis will say, thanks, but we know better.

Keith Weinhold (00:22:59) - Well, we've got more coming up with Jim, including. He spent some 60 plus years abroad. I want to learn more about what he thinks with living and traveling so much about the United States. You're listening to get Rich education. Our guest is legendary investor Jim Rogers. When we come back, I'm your host, Keith White. Hope your bank is getting rich off of you. The national average bank account pays less than 1% on your savings. If your money isn't making 4%, you're losing your hard earned cash to inflation. Let the liquidity fund help you put your money to work with minimum risk. Your cash generates up to an 8% return with compound interest year in and year out. Instead of earning less than 1% sitting in your bank account, the minimum investment is just 25 K.

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Speaker 5 (00:25:08) - This is The Real World Network's Kathy Petke, and you are listening to the always valuable get Rich education with Keith Reinhold.

Keith Weinhold (00:25:26) - Welcome back to get Rich. university. So we're talking with investing mogul legendary Jim Rogers.

Keith Weinhold (00:25:32) - He's joining us from Singapore today. He's joined us a few times over the past five years. And with what he said in what's coming, he's really been remarkably accurate. Sometimes he just gives a pretty casual delivery, but you really want to listen in to what he's saying. A lot of people have hung on his every word for decades here. And Jim, part of that is all your worldly experience. From so many of your travels and visiting over 100 nations. I've only visited about 35 so far myself. What do you think that we can learn about the United States from living and traveling abroad?

Jim Rogers (00:26:07) - First of all, I used to tell you I have made many mistakes in my life. I don't think I don't know how to get things wrong. I have many times. But yes, living abroad, I certainly even traveling abroad is an eye opening experience. It's a fabulous education. Rudyard Kipling, who won the Nobel Prize for literature, once had a line and a poem. The name of the poem was The English flag and the lion was.

Jim Rogers (00:26:36) - What can he know of England? Who only England knows. One is you'll know a lot about your own country if you know about the rest of the world. And you will you. If you go to country X and you see they eat different food or wear different clothes, it'll make you realize a lot about America. So my point is it's a fabulous education to see other places. I don't know if it's helped me. I in my view, it has helped me a lot to understand the world and to understand other people.

Keith Weinhold (00:27:11) - Now, in my international travels, which are a fraction of yours, a lot of times I get a reminder that life in the United States is still pretty clean and efficient. We have an abundance of potable water all the way to an amenity like fast Wi-Fi. And you know if someone abroad is traveling in the United States, they get to experience those things, and they probably don't even realize or understand that we're the greatest detonation in the history of the world. It's actually pretty difficult to know.

Jim Rogers (00:27:40) - There are signs that even those travelers will see. If you go to JFK airport, you will see the huge difference in JFK and say, the Japanese Narita Airport. You know your intuitive world when you visit some international airports outside of the US. But it's not just that America. Five star hotels do not compare with five star hotels in other countries. Listen, I don't like any of this because I have to live it. But the facts are. Yes. And you make a very good point that most people do not notice or does not affect them much at all if it affects them at all. But that just makes the eventual problem worse, because it hits us out of the blue and we don't know what happened. At least if we're worried, we can prepare. But you know, if you ride down the highway, most people think everything. It's okay. This is a nice interstate layout of potholes. They think everything is great. I hope that this all changes. I hope I'm wrong, but I have seen enough to dough that it's not going to end well.

Keith Weinhold (00:28:55) - Tell us about where you've lived for a long time. I mean, you come from the United States, but you've lived abroad for a long time. You've been there in Singapore for a while. Singapore, which is a place I haven't traveled to, has a reputation for being prosperous and enterprising in a really clean place. So will you tell us a little bit more about why Singapore is prosperous, including what its real estate markets like?

Jim Rogers (00:29:20) - Singapore is a tiny country. There are only 5 or 6 million people here. So yes, it has been a remarkable success story. It's probably been one of the greatest success stories in the world in the past 40 or 50 years. It still amazes me to see how efficient and how well everything works here. And they don't have yet the getting debt now, but they don't have the staggering debts that some other countries do. I mean, Japan, America. You look at some of the great success stories that come to people's minds. Japan did it by borrowing staggering amounts of money.

Jim Rogers (00:29:57) - Every day, the Bank of Japan borrows huge amounts of money it's going to have a problem to someday. I mean, it's just very simple. I don't want it to sound like some crazy fear monger, but I can read. And I know how this is always wound up. Now there's some very exciting and successful places in the world. And if you go to some parts of the United States, you say, oh my gosh, what a wonderful place. And it is. But underneath seems to me that there are problems developing. If you come to Singapore, you'll say, oh my gosh, and I'm not the only one who knows it all. The international surveys show that Singapore is one of the very top.

Keith Weinhold (00:30:42) - Now in Singapore, is it more of an owner society where most of the residents own the home they live in or like you find in a lot of urban areas? Is there a disproportionately high amount of renters there in Singapore?

Jim Rogers (00:30:55) - Over 80% of the people at Singapore own their own home.

Jim Rogers (00:31:00) - The guy who set out to build Singapore new and he especially because in his lifetime there had been a lot of riots in Asia. And he somehow knew that if people own their own home, they had a huge stake in the country, right? Had a reason to make sure, to try to make sure everything went well. So in this country, over 80% of the people own their own home. Yeah, he may have a mortgage, but still they own their own home. That's part of the reason for the success. I mean, for what it's worth, I'll also tell you he was a huge believer in education. He made sure that everybody spoke at least two languages. I mean, he knew what it took to be successful and he did it. Yeah.

Keith Weinhold (00:31:49) - Homeownership is generally good for communities like you touched on. You just have more of a stake in making sure your neighborhood stays quiet. Or you might show more interested enthusiasm in new clean mass transit coming into your area. You're more likely to be a voter when you own your home, and so on.

Keith Weinhold (00:32:06) - So sure, that gives the residents a more vested stake in their own community, which is good for everybody. Does Singapore have one problem that we have here with United States housing? Do you have any idea if there's a substantial housing shortage there in Singapore, like we're seeing in so many places?

Jim Rogers (00:32:21) - Do not shortage in the sense that you probably mean it? Yes. At times prices go high because there's not an abundance of housing and people keep moving to Singapore because it has been a successful place. So no, it's not like many places that we both know, but there are more immigrants coming here. The population is rising and they got a little somewhere. Yes, people are building homes and so it's not a gigantic problem at the moment. Can it be? Yes, of course it can be. And maybe it will be someday, but not at the moment. One thing I'll quickly say. Many societies, many countries, have a saying that families go from rags to rags and three generations. And there are many reasons for that.

Jim Rogers (00:33:11) - So social reasons. I will point out that Singapore is now on its fourth new government. So maybe if human wisdom is correct, maybe Singapore is going to have some problems in the future. You don't see them now. They might though.

Keith Weinhold (00:33:28) - Well, that's an interesting way to think about it. We've talked about problems in a few nations, Jim. I wonder, do you see there being a bright next up, incoming nation because you have this relative perspective from all your travels.

Jim Rogers (00:33:43) - There are places that are trying to change and do better. Yet, Nam is a perfect example. I mean, what a nightmare it was 40 or 50 years ago. Right now it's on the rise. South Korea is one of the most successful, prosperous nations in the world. And in 1970, North Korea was richer than South Korea. That, of course, is not true anymore. So countries can change and can develop. And it has worked. I'm interested in Uzbekistan now, in Central Asia. It was ruined by the communists.

Jim Rogers (00:34:20) - over 600 years ago. Uzbekistan conquered a lot of the world. I mean, then the communists came along and ruined it. But now they're changing again. So there's always somebody on the rise, and I'll be somebody on the decline. That's key, of course, is to be in the place where things are getting better, not getting worse.

Keith Weinhold (00:34:42) - With that in mind is we're about to wrap up here. Jim, you know, I like an actionable takeaway for the audience. And before I ask you that, if I can share with you what we do here in a nation and a world of expanding debt, Grey's take on debt here is the way that we can borrow large amounts prudently and get our own debt is to buy income producing real estate. If you borrow more, you can only control more and both inflation and tenants passively debase your mortgage debt for you, which enriches that borrower as long as they can control their cash flow. So really, that's one thing that we're doing to play things here in a world of inflation.

Keith Weinhold (00:35:25) - What are your thoughts with that? Or if you think that there's something else that the everyday person can really do to protect themselves in the future.

Jim Rogers (00:35:33) - It's pretty clear that there have been, if you understand that and if you manage it properly, oh my gosh, you can become unbelievably successful and unbelievably rich. The proper words are though, if you handle it properly. History also showed that many people have been ruined by debt, so I hope that everybody understands that debt is not as simple as it looks, but if you handle it properly, oh my gosh, the returns and the rewards are huge. And yes, there are many, many throughout history, throughout the world, many people that made gigantic fortunes from property, from real estate. So I hope you're doing it right. I hope all of your viewers are doing it right. It's not as easy as it looks, but it can lead to great success and great disaster. So yes. Don't stop. Make sure that everybody understands the potential problems and the potential rewards and they don't get overextended.

Jim Rogers (00:36:37) - Oh my gosh, you'll be very, very rich.

Keith Weinhold (00:36:40) - Yeah, that's a little bit like fire. If used inappropriately, could burn down your house. But if you know how to use fire, you can cook meals for the rest of your life. Do you have any last thoughts overall, anything you'd like to share? Anything we really want to know?

Jim Rogers (00:36:54) - I will tell you again that before this is over, interest rates in the US are going to go much, much higher. The debt is staggering. It is just whenever I look at the numbers and think about them, it shocks me, stuns me because I know it's going to lead to huge, huge, huge problems. But the people who are aware and understand what's happening and thrive. So this is not some kind of disaster for everybody, but some people will do extremely well. I hope that everybody you know does extremely well.

Keith Weinhold (00:37:31) - Well, Jim Rogers, it's been a pleasure hearing from you again. As always. Thanks so much for coming out of the show.

Jim Rogers (00:37:37) - My pleasure. I hope we can do it again sometime.

Keith Weinhold (00:37:45) - Oh yes. It's good to get the bigger picture. Sage like wisdom. I'm not sure if you caught it early in the interview, but Jim is not selling short. That means he's not betting that stocks are about to take a big fall. He expects even higher interest rates when it comes to America's swelling debt. Most agree that they're just going to keep inflating their way out of it, rather than default on it. I do, too, but consider that the US actually does have a history of defaulting, like in 1971 when we told the world that you can no longer redeem our debt, IOUs for your gold, that there was defaulting on a promise, we weren't going to give them the gold anymore. Singapore is still growing fast. In fact, it's averaged about 2% annual growth over the last decade. If you discard pandemic aberrations, the value of the median Singapore condo is $1.7 million, and it is 1000ft² in size. That sort of makes you think about New York City real estate.

Keith Weinhold (00:38:52) - And in fact, I had a trip planned to Singapore in February 2020. It was a cruise, but I didn't go. That part of the itinerary got cancelled. If you remember, Covid heated up in Southeast Asia early on, so I ended up spending more of that trip in India and Dubai. As it turned out, with our accelerated expansion of the supply of dollars that have been created since 2020. Here's one result today, more than 43% of Americans have been forced to cut back over the past year, and nearly 20% have had to borrow from family or friends in order to make ends meet. And you know when politicians brag about government funding. Just remember this. They're actually expecting you to give them credit for spending your money. That's what that means. And unfortunately, no one is immune from Congress's spending, which can be reckless at times. If you don't pay for something with taxes, then you pay for it with inflation. And that's exactly the type of issue that we expect to study on at Freedom Fest, where I might be fortunate enough to meet you in two days.

Keith Weinhold (00:40:10) - Big thanks to the iconic Jim Rogers today. His website is Jim rogers.com. Coming up on the show here in future episodes soon, we're going to discuss a few components that add value to your residential real estate that really don't get discussed very often. Garages and also the vacant land that your property sits on. Also, the King of Commercial real estate is set to make his Get Rich Education debut. We'll learn about commercial real estate turmoil and the commercial sectors that higher interest rates have blown up. Well, hey, do you have family or friends that are into investing or real estate? I love it when you hit the share button on your podcasting device or whatever platform you're listening on. Everything that we do here is free, and the share button really helps the show. And be sure to follow or subscribe to the get Rich educational podcast yourself if you haven't already. Until next week, I'm your host, Keith Reinhold. Don't quit your daydream.

Speaker 6 (00:41:19) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice.

Speaker 6 (00:41:29) - Opinions of guests are their own. Information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss the host is operating on behalf of get Rich education LLC exclusively.

Keith Weinhold (00:41:47) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building. Get Rich education.com.
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