Episoder
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So here we are! The final episode of Season #6.
We start with me needing to loop back to something we discussed in the last episode where Jason said he received feedback from someone saying that sometimes when Jason mentions the past / the timeline, that he is shaming me. While I don’t think he is trying to shame me - I DO experience shame when certain parts of our story is mentioned. I wanted to share a point of clarification that didn’t come to me until after we had stopped recording last week.
I’ve wanted to talk about the shame women carry for a while and I thought this would be a good time to dig into it. We start with a working definition of shame - because in some ways, it’s really hard to conceptualize. What I think is important is for us to remember that shame is an indictment on our being. It’s more than a feeling - shame becomes a sense of self.
We then talk about permanent shame (thanks to Christa - one of our podcast producers - this is more rightly named chronic shame) versus acute shame. So for those of you that read the show notes - think of this as a bonus!
We switch gears and dig into the different facets of recovery and how shame bubbles up in each of these areas and slowly chips away / erodes at our sense of self as women. We talk emotionally, financially, physically, sexually… The conversation continues and we talk about several things including how his acting out isn’t an indictment on her being (although it FEELS that way), naming the shame, recognizing that the antidote to shame is the starting point, bringing it to community (which includes having others dismantle the shame), and ultimately working at putting ourselves back together.
I was so grateful for Jason to bring up the reality that her shame necessitates compassion from him. We discussed this before we started recording and I’m so glad Jason looped back to this - it’s so important for men to be WITH her in her shame and pain not separate from it. It will make the biggest of differences.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6, we will be back in the Fall for Season #7!
Shelley mentions Episode #7 on Toxic Shame and Biblical Shame which might be helpful to review as we pick up the topic of shame again in this podcast episode.
Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.
Please join my team at the first ever RLW Conference - She Heals - in Denver THIS summer. I would so love to meet you at this event!
Jason is hosting another Recovery 2.0 workshop for men in Texas in June. You can get all the details here.
Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. The Spring Boundary Class is FULL. However, we are considering adding an early summer class - you can join the wait list here.
For more information on RL Academy, click here.
Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus.
We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop!
Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list.
Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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In this episode - we talk about how he can hold her hostage in the recovery process. We discuss this concept, of him holding her hostage, two different ways (or avenues or angles or well, you get the point). The first avenue is how Jason interprets “holding her hostage” which essentially is him holding her hostage for his past wounds and holding her accountable and responsible to heal his past wounds. This certainly was a dynamic that Jason and I dealt with while we were dating as well as while we were married. We end up moving into a conversation about Jason going first in the recovery process and him relinquishing the expectation of me “healing” his wounds and I qualified that by saying it’s not “fully” my responsibility. This takes us down a whole other trail where I mention Genesis 2:21 where Eve was taken from Adam’s rib - close to his heart and under his arm as well as Genesis 2:18 and the word "helper" meaning one who provides what is lacking in another. Clearly I am grappling with this and Jason gives a helpful analogy. The second avenue that we quite quickly look at because we were running out of time is when he holds her hostage by not being open to allowing her to express her pain and giving her a soft space to land as she grieves. A lot packed into this episode - some tears, a lot of laughter and hopefully a lot to think about. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. The Spring Boundary Class is FULL. However, we are considering adding an early summer class - you can join the wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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Manglende episoder?
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It’s just me today, popping in to let you know we will be back next week with a fresh episode. I am sharing the quickest of life updates with you guys plus a reminder about a couple of resources that we offer.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6.
For those of you that are new here, check out Episode #1 for Our Story. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class starting THIS month - get more information and register here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
As we dig into the content of this particular episode - please keep in mind that these situations are SO nuanced. So please take what we are sharing and consider how it applies to you. What we share will not work for everyone in every situation. #1 - Clearly End the Affair - Our first suggestion for regaining confidence and to be able to go back out into the community with your head high is to consider utilizing a technique from I Don’t Love You Anymore (link below). In the book, Dr. Clarke suggests that the betrayer (with his wife on the line) calls the affair partner to verbally and officially end things. This is something Jason and I did with several of his AP’s and it was incredibly validating and honoring for me and it also gave me confidence as I went back out into the world. #2 - Make a Choice + Take Back Your Power - Next, we talk about making a choice + taking back our power. Specifically, we think it’s important for you to make a choice about who needs to know about this and who doesn’t need to know about it. And once that choice is made - remind yourself that NONE of these people (whether they know or don’t know) have power over you. Jason makes a great point - once those people know, we can start to relinquish control of the narrative. We have made the decision and we can surrender the rest. Head held high. (And remind yourself that what others think is nothing for you to be concerned with.) Reputation is something we have very little to no control over but our character is what we want to focus on and what we can control. So again, surrendering our reputation and surrendering control of the narrative. We talk briefly about shame and this is probably something we need to dive into a bit more here on the podcast - how shame impacts her (we covered shame for him in episode #7, see link below). For now, practice an awareness of the role that shame plays and how it impacts your confidence when you go out in public. Keep in mind the antidote to shame is intimacy so naming it and then talking about it are key. #3 - Have a Plan - Something that helped me years ago was to imagine this happening (a run in) and having a plan for what I would or would not say. I also had to lean into what was going to be an incredibly awkward situation and let it be awkward (as much as we don’t want things to be awkward). #4 - Embrace this as an Invitation for Greater Healing - Give yourself permission to take baby steps. Start by going to your mailbox and celebrate that win. Go through a drive through and give yourself a ton of compassion. Build off of those baby steps and keep stretching yourself. And all the while, know that this, too, will cultivate character and growth in YOU. Jason then shares two things that he wants men to know: if you bump into the AP - RUN. Literally. As he said so well - you can’t leave any space for questions. And as quickly as you leave, you quickly tell your wife. Don’t not say anything and definitely don’t think you are protecting her by not saying anything. Not true. You are protecting you when you choose not to say anything. The end. We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6. We mention episode #54 - Fearing Attractive Women at the top of the episode. You can listen to that here. A book we reference a ton and did again in this episode - I Don’t Love You Anymore by Dr. David Clarke. If you haven’t read this book, and especially if you lack confidence to say to your husband - this is not okay - I highly encourage you give this book a read. For the episode on Biblical Shame - check out #7 - Toxic Shame and Biblical Shame. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - registration opened last week. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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As Jason said early on in this episode - recovery work is painful. It hurts, it’s scary and no wonder we resist it. Jason talks about how he went from resisting the recovery work to accepting that there was work to do. It’s in this process that we make friends with the work. As Thomas Berry, a coach on our team, says - we go from “got to TO get to”.
How we make friends with the work:
1 - When recovery calls, we answer the call.
2 - Embrace that it's going to hurt.
3 - We make time.
4 - It brings us closer to God.
5 - We learn from the work.
6 - We help others make friends with their work.What stops us from making friends with the work:
1 - Cost: time, money, ego, our job, our status, our reputation. Ultimately, it comes down to what we value.
2 - Fear: of change, what we will find out about ourselves, etc.
3 - The injustice of it.
4 - Lack of guaranteed outcomes and a lot of unknowns.
5 - Bad theologyJason then left me underwhelmed when he said: The place to start is by starting. (As you will hear, I was ready for the next step and he looked at me and said - that’s it. Just start.) Okay then. So we dedicate time daily to the recovery work. And if doing the work isn’t getting you anywhere - consider the practice of implementation (Jason asks some great questions geared toward looking at implementation and if it’s happening) as well as consider if the work you are doing is actually not the right work and needs to be revamped.
We segue into a conversation about recovery plans and relapses and I really appreciate what Jason shares about recovery plans being the means to the end and not the end. “The plan isn’t the issue, the person is the issue."
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6.
Jason mentions episode #68 - What Exactly IS Good Work? You can listen to that here.
Jason mentions the Identity Masterclass - you can find out more about that here.
Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.
Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - registration opened last week.
For more information on RL Academy, click here.
Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus.
We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop
Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list
Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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Basically, I try to take over during the first five minutes of the episode as I talk about hope. Then I pass the mic over to Jason and you will probably actually like what he says much more. I just try to sprinkle in anecdotal comments as I can, you’re welcome.
Hope is a handhold for wives in the following ways…
1 - it gives women a sense of security in the middle of what is a very chaotic experience.
2 - it can reconcile staying.
3 - it can be a reprieve from the chaos that she is experiencing with him.
4 - it can be something that can help her feel sane.
5 - it gives her a way to reconcile that all the years weren’t lost.
Then I chime in with: hope is a key ingredient that we have to have. It doesn’t just help with a semblance of security - it IS security.
And yet…at the same time, hope can be a handcuff (holding her back) in the following ways...
1 - because everything orbits around recovery.
2 - because it betrays her intuition and better judgment.
3 - because it can cause her to question her faith.
4 - because she is signing up to stay in a revolving door of pain.
5 - because it forces her to decide between herself and the kids.
6 - because if she doesn’t hope - she will be the bad guy.
7 - because it feels like life is defined by betrayal.
We then have a couple of side discussions - initially, I am honestly just trying to figure out where to place this guy (that Jason is speaking of) that betrays his wife, does all this recovery work and then says he is going to just let her go. We make no progress in this conversation and move to...
We then talk about how in mid-recovery, we in some ways had to sit in a place of figuring out how to like each other again, be roommates again, be husband and wife again, etc. Honestly, I think both Jason and I wondered - after all that hard early work - if what we salvaged was really worth it. The good news is: it was a season and it did pass. So my encouragement to each of you is to keep going.
We then go BACK to this guy that is just going to let his wife go (after betrayal, discovery, disclosure, and years of work:!). I clearly can’t let this go and ultimately have some opinions, that I will leave to the recording.
And the final side conversation has to do with deferred hope and how we can get stuck in this place. Naming it is powerful and so I hope having these words (if they apply) will help you, too!
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6.
"Hope anchors the soul" is from Hebrews 6:19. “Hope deferred makes the heart sick but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life” is from Proverbs 13:12. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - registration opened last week. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
Get out your thinking caps - this episode is heady and I had to rewind many many times to re-listen while I was working on these show notes. We are talking empathy (and intimacy and conviction) today. I believe that empathy is one of the key ingredients that will help her heart heal within the context of the couple-ship. So developing empathy is KEY.
We talk neuroanatomy: prefrontal cortex, mirror neurons, cortical hypofrontality and modeling of empathy from others. We also talk biblical anthropology: the holy spirit interacting with our spirit and in that there can be a cultivation of conviction, humility, a sense of our own brokenness, love, and repentance.
It’s the interplay between the two of these - the neuranatomy + the biblical anthropology that help cultivate empathy. Both - And.
Action Items for men that are struggling to find conviction or have more of a self-depricating conviction (which can lead to empathy):
Write your story or revisit your written story and where the wounds are from childhood.
Two book recommendations (see below)
Reflect on: what am I afraid of when coming to terms with the depths of my depravity?
Be aware of your “depravity floor” - and come to terms with the fact that we can all do bad things on really good days and thus need ALL of God’s grace.
We end by sharing a list of things that can help with developing empathy:
Doing a formal disclosure well
Modeling from other men that are empathic (accountability group, coach, therapist, etc.)
Story work / root work
Living with sobriety / integrity (acting out AND acting in)
Gratitude
Tilling the soil of your heart (for her)
Ultimately - empathy and intimacy go hand in hand. As Jason said - intimacy is the antidote, at every turn.
We hope this is helpful for you guys!
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6.
The two books that Jason recommended: Abba’s Child by Brendan Manning and With by Skye Jethani
Episode #6 is one you can also refer to for more on empathy - The Importance of Empathy (not Sympathy).
Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.
Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - registration opens TODAY.
For more information on RL Academy, click here.
Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus.
We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop!
Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list.
Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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In this episode, we get real honest about a recent series of arguments we had about money, with the intent of sharing with you guys what engaging in conflict can look like in “late recovery”. Not that we do conflict perfectly or recovery perfectly (as you will surely hear) but we get questions about what life looks like today - years and years post betrayal and with a lot of recovery work under our belts, collectively. We laugh a LOT today. And we have a really sweet marriage. And we STILL do a lot of arguing and disagreeing.
Ultimately, you are going to hear a mix of hurt, triggers, acting in, and being known / fully knowing one another in a deeper way as we unpack our recent disagreements. Getting to a place where Jason can speak into what I can’t see (and vice-versa, at times) has been the sweetest gift and is truly what safe, trusted intimacy is all about.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6.
Wired for Intimacy is the book that I read a quote from in regards to intimacy. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - join that wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
In this episode, we talk about the value of the full disclosure and some of the reasons that doing a full disclosure (for both him and for her) is incredibly beneficial. Here are some of those reasons:
- for men: integration of the story and the acting out - as in, making sense of and connecting dots in his story as a whole which informs the recovery and healing process
- for men: writing out our stories has been shown via research to help with the healing process at a cellular level
- for women: knowing the truth of our lives helps facilitate the process of forgiving (not to mention it restores honor to know the truth)
- for women: knowing the truth of his life can eventually help us tap into empathy for him, which in turn helps aid in forgiveness
- for men: to help uncover the “why” of the acting out (the roots)
- for men: an opportunity for rebuilding trust
- for women: helps her get unstuck and sets her on a course to truly grieve what has happened
- for both: a marker / foundation for them to build upon
- for women: the ability to integrate the truth of her life into her story (just like he does)
- for women: witnessing him cultivating ownership (such an important character trait we need to see in him)
- for men: it’s Biblical
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6.
Pennebaker is the researcher out of UT Austin that has shown the impact of writing out our stories to significantly help our bodies heal. James 5:16 - confess you sins so that you may be healed. John 8:32 - the truth will set you free. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - join that wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop. Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
In this episode, we piggyback off of the last episode on Frontloading and discuss how women can leverage this technique in order to feel safe having certain conversations with him. This technique is essentially giving him a heads up that a difficult conversation needs to be had + insuring he is in an open space to have said conversation well in advance of it starting. I love this technique because it serves as an insurance policy to help protect her from additional hurt and pain. (And can also be considered a gift for him because he isn’t being put on the spot and can prepare his heart for the conversation.)
Jason suggests the following when she approaches him asking for a difficult convo: shush the negative thoughts, control the narrative, and finally - pivot to empathy (this is all happening in the space between the frontload and the actual convo).
For women - this is applicable when you are wanting to share your heart (whether you feel hurt, fear, anxious, unsettled, etc.), needing to express a need and/or when you are seeking clarity. This technique is not applicable if you are experiencing immediate triggers and pain or as an “prescriptive edict” (where she demands versus where she expresses what she needs). It can be super helpful to get in touch with what you are feeling and START with that when you sit down to have the conversation.
For husbands - focus first on the feelings expressed, meet her there; not solving the problem SO that she doesn’t have those feelings. This will help you hear her heart around the request.
Bigger picture, keep in mind: When she front loads, her desire is for you to accept what she is bringing to the table; and less about her trying to accommodate you (by front loading).
We hope this tool helps her bring up the harder conversations and helps him meet her heart with tenderness and empathy.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6.
Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - join that wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
In this episode, we talk about Frontloading, a term we first heard from Jennifer Kolari after doing some parenting therapy with her. See the link below for her information.
Frontloading is the conversation we have prior to an anticipated event (or an anticipated conversation). Keep in mind, it's about a heart attitude, not about a playbook / plan / script. This heart attitude says two things: 1 - Empathy and tenderness will inform me going into this situation well, and 2 - I don’t have to fear fall out. The point of frontloading is to be prepared FOR the hurtful stuff, versus making sure NO hurtful stuff exists.
Big picture - a couple of things for men to keep in mind:
1 - It’s an educational experience for guys - Husbands are going to learn how she perceives and experiences different situations.
2 - Process it for yourself prior to talking to her about it. Ask yourself: How does this situation impact my integrity and what do I need to protect that? How does this situation impact her heart and what do I need to protect her heart?
Four things to think about as you are front loading an anticipated event:
1 - Thinking about and anticipating what will happen emotionally in that situation for you (him) and for her in this anticipated event.
2 - What is going to happen during the anticipated event that taps into your wounds / her wounds?
3 - What do I need at the beach? What does she need at the beach?
4 - What are the expected actions that I will take during this anticipated event?
Keep in mind: this is not one and done (one plan this weekend won’t be the same plan next weekend). Have the SAME conversation next week for the next anticipated event. In addition, don’t deviate from the original plan unless there is a conversation that happens WELL ahead of time.
Frontloading can be useful in the following situations: prior to travel, prior to being with extended family, prior to being in public (together), as a strategy to help him lean in when there is intense intimacy aversion, overall early on in the recovery process to establish safety and to build trust.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6.
To find out more about Dr. Jennifer Kolari - you can click here.
"A righteous man doesn’t have to fear bad news.” is found in Psalm 112:7.
Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.
Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - join that wait list here.
For more information on RL Academy, click here.
Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus.
We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop!
Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list.
Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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In this episode, we talk about her getting stuck and how this can be (not always, but can be) connected to him NOT doing good, consistent work. Jason recaps a couple of things from episode #68 - What is Good Work (definitely check out that episode if you want to learn more about what “good” work looks like - see the link below.)
We discuss four big things that can cause her to get stuck in the process (when he is not doing good work). These include:
1 - When there isn’t clarity on if he is doing good work or not (when she simply isn’t sure) OR when it seems like his level of good work changes on the daily / weekly / monthly.
2 - Difficulty (for her) in identifying needs and boundaries - this is a huge area where women can get stuck, when they struggle to identify what they even need.
3 - Unconscious vows she has made to herself.
4 - When staying the same isn’t more painful than making a change - this can also cause her to get stuck. In the podcast episode, we are specifically referring to setting boundaries and the price we pay as women to set those big boundaries. The less good work he is doing - the more boundary setting we have to do in order to heal.
5 - Mixed Signals from him (similar yet different to #1, above.)We then shift gears and talk about strategies to get you unstuck:
1 - Get clarity on if he is doing good work (or not). Take Jason’s advice and go with the graph of a stock analogy for this. You can also consider these journal prompts: How is he helping my heart heal? How is he hurting my heart from healing?
2 - Get clear on your needs and boundaries. Journal out: What are the top five things I need to feel safe in my marriage?
3 - Journal out - What do I think, want, need and feel? (See Chapter 3 in the Rescued workbook.)
4 - Naming the vows you have made and then Journal out: Are these vows still working for me?We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6!
Episode #68 goes into greater detail about what good work is - you can listen to that here. And while we are at it, the “sister” episode (haha!) I referred to when talking about vows was Episode #69, which you can listen to here. Here is a link to the Rescued workbook. I also refer to Episode #47 - When He Chooses Not to do the Work, which you can listen to here. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - join that wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
So, let’s say he is doing mostly good work. Oftentimes when he is doing this mostly good work, women are faced with a dilemma. Does she accept the good work and lean into it and trust it? OR does she hold him / the good work at arm’s length and continue to watch and wait and keep herself safe?
We start with exploring some of the reasons she runs into this dilemma. These include:
1 - Unconscious tug of war happening in her heart.
2 - Vows she has made to herself.
3 - Not knowing if she can trust herself.
4 - The vulnerability of it all.
5 - Invalidation of her pain.I loved it when Jason said - "The husband that has done the work doesn’t say 'why can’t we just move on' - this comment serves as a red flag that he HASN’T done the work". Bottom line ladies: work toward naming the root of the dilemma and THEN you can ask yourself - what do I want to do about it? (With gentleness, of course!)
Jason then speaks directly to husbands about some to do’s if this is the situation the couple finds themselves in:
1 - Consistency + small deposits matter - Jason says, "consistency of small deposits builds trust in order for her to get out of the dilemma”.
2 - Control the narrative in your head.
3 - I’ve got you and I’ve got us.Ultimately, my encouragement to women is that this is a part of the process and what’s important is to be able to name it and then figure out what you want to do about it, with gentleness. I loved Jason’s final thought - there is no clock.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6!
For the episode mentioned on Equanimity (#12) - click here. Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. Would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - join that wait list here. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, Masterclasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop. Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
So what exactly is good work? And what does good work look like AFTER the initial stages? Because it seems like some husbands rock that good work early on - and then… they are done?! Jason and I are both encouraging you guys to honestly assess: are the things we list happening in my / his recovery process? And if not - what might it look like to get back on track?
Some of the “good work” is objective (for instance, the formal disclosure or the amount of acting in). But a lot of this “good work” is less concrete.
Here we go:
Quantitative v Qualitative - it’s good to be doing the quantitative work but we must look to see - is there fruit coming out of it? It’s the qualitative work that we will hang our hat on - so consider: what quality is coming from the recovery work he is doing?
Early Good Work - it all starts with radical honesty. Followed by: willingness to be wrong, willingness to be led, willingness to talk through and engage conversations, willingness to be held accountable, sincere effort and interest to understand himself / the roots of his behaviors, a revulsion to things that lack sexual integrity, a willingness to honor your wife’s needs, being at war with yourself + open access.
Mid-Recovery Work - tenderness from him and sitting with her in her pain, steadfastness and him being in the process for the long haul, him leading her well, moving from sobriety to character change, recovery becoming a way of life, empathy becomes an intentional thing that he WANTS to give, being steady while the cement dries, focusing on intimacy aversion / acting in.
Love it when Jason said this: In early recovery - her safety is his assignment. In mid recovery - he internalizes that her safety is his responsibility. And then in late recovery - he knows her safety is his privilege.
Good work does not end after early recovery. Women deeply desire for their husbands to go the distance with them and to do the mid-recovery work well. Our hope is that this is exactly what each of you (husband) will choose to do.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6!
Shelley mentions episode #40 - Mid-recovery - Making the distance between surviving and thriving for more details on mid-recovery.
For the episode on Acting In / Intimacy Aversion - check out episode #25 and episode #26.
Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here.
We would love for you to consider joining me at the Fall 2024 Retreat - you can join the wait list here. Would also love for you to join me in the 2Q Boundary Class - join that wait list here.
For more information on RL Academy, click here.
Join the community on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus.
We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop!
Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list.
Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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In this episode - we are diving in to a question that Shelley receives quite regularly - why did you stay? And were you / are you embarrassed that you chose to stay?
We start with talking about some of the reasons that can make it embarrassing to stay - for instance, in our culture - there is this notion that when a woman is cheated on, there must be something wrong with her / something she did. I loved it when Jason said - “no amount of bad marriage necessitates or drives infidelity or betrayal”. I’d like to print this on a sticker or a t-shirt - anyone want one?!
Another reason that it can be really hard and even embarrassing to stay is when he is not doing the work (or is doing work some of the time but not consistently) and DIGNITY is not restored. This is critical to the couple ship process - for what has been stripped from her (dignity) to be restored.
We share several other reasons - what I think is important is for each of you to NAME what makes it embarrassing to stay and then also decide what is true / what isn’t true with your reasoning.
We then pivot to talking about some of the reasons I chose to stay with Jason at the fresh, young age of 26. I initially talk about giving myself permission to sit in the in-between and not make a quick decision. Let me be really clear (because I’m not sure if I was in the podcast episode) - while this is not a reason I stayed, it did help me tremendously in being able to make the choice, one way or another. I didn’t put pressure on myself to make a decision and I allowed myself to embrace the discomfort of not knowing which way to go.
Ultimately, I chose to stay because Jason completely changed. At a heart level. More than anything - he owned his brokenness and failures. And I wasn’t willing to stay with him if he was just sober and nothing more. I realized after all the hurt and all the pain - that he was still the man of my dreams. And I wanted to try to do life with him. I knew it was risky but the thought of not taking the risk wasn’t something I could wrap my head around.
And finally - I realized and waited for God to show me the way, it was just too big of a decision for me to make on my own. Even when I received clarity from God - I questioned if it was real (similar to Gideon and the fleece situation in Judges chapter 6 (see below)) and asked for more clarity. Ultimately - I’ve been able to hang tight to sign God gave me through the years.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6!
For an article on What I Would Have Done Differently, written by our beloved Amy Garcia - click here. For the podcast on what we would have done differently (it’s episode #2) - click here.
Here is a link to the passage from Judges 6:11-40.
Would LOVE for you to join me at the Spring Retreat - click here for more information. We have ONE spot left!
Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. You will find the Threats Assessment as well as the Bow-Tie Diagram + Video.
For more information on RL Academy, click here.
Would love to connect with you on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus.
We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop!
Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list,
Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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It’s show time! Here we go - Season #6 of Redemptive Living Radio is HERE.
On this first episode of the season, we are talking about relapses. I realize this can be a super tender topic on all fronts.
Here are some of the questions we answer:
1 - What is a relapse? - In some ways, a relapse is VERY clear and in some instances, it can seem a bit arbitrary. I think what is key is to look at the primary, secondary and tertiary markers / threats - see episode #23 - Primary, Secondary, and Tertiary Markers in Recovery - and allow that to guide you when it comes to what is a relapse and what is not a relapse. (Bonus - if you haven’t subscribed to the podcast freebies - please do! There is a link in the show notes of episode #23 as well as below.) There are nuances for each of us, so we do have to take this on a case by case basis.
2 - What is the difference between a relapse and a slip? And is this important? - quick answer is - this is NOT important.
2 - Should we expect a relapse? - please no.
3 - What are men initially working on in order to prevent relapses? - Jason talks about a three-legged stool to include radical honesty, emotional intimacy and accountability as the key things initially initially (it’s more than this but just to deduce it down as much as possible) he is working on to help not only avoid relapses but to also move forward in recovery.
4 - How can we leverage relapses to be apart of good recovery work versus apart of the addiction? - Jason talks about focusing on radical honesty, character work, emotional intimacy work, shame work, sitting in pain and more.
5 - What if he continues to relapse? - It’s important to consider some other things that might be going on / might be helpful if relapses continue. We would be remiss if we didn’t address this before signing off.
I love Jason’s encouragement at the end: let’s grow from relapses and not just accept them as apart of the process.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us for Season #6!
Henry Ford quote pertaining to our attitude with success and failure: "whether you think you can or you think you can’t, you’re right.”
Make sure you download the Podcast Freebies! You can do that here. You will find the Threats Assessment as well as the Bow-Tie Diagram + Video.
There are two spots left in the Empowered Boundary Class - starting January 25th. I would LOVE for you to join me. Click here for more details + to register.
For more information on RL Academy, click here.
Would love to connect with you on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus.
We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop!
Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list.
Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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Welcome back to the podcast!!! We wanted to jump in and do a bonus podcast for you guys ahead of the release of Season #6 which will air in January, 2024.
While it really is a topic near and dear to Jason’s heart - it’s also a PSA for ALL of us as we prepare to be with extended family over Thanksgiving and Christmas. The holidays can be really challenging - no matter what - and then throw in Family Systems (see below) + recovery and it’s a LOT. The happy holidays can feel like the not so happy holidays.
The back drop of this conversation we are having is rooted in Family Systems Theory by Murray Bowen. Bottom line is in every family - there are unspoken agreements and roles within the family system. For instance, you might be the clown of the family, the peace keeper, the hero… the list goes on and on. When we merge family systems (by going to the in-laws for Thanksgiving, for instance) there will absolutely be an impact to the “system”.
We cover five key points to ponder as you consider how Family Systems impacts your holiday experience:
1 - Name the role you played in your family of origin as well as who you are now relative to the earlier role you played.
2 - Acknowledge your wife’s needs when navigating holiday interactions.
3 - When emotions are high, use discernment on what to share and say in front of extended family, AND honor yourself and your boundaries / limits.
4 - Front Loading conversations between him and her prior to the holiday gatherings.
5 - Daily Downloads, initiated by him, for the two of you every day you are with extended family.
6 - And Bonus: for women - identifying anchors (activities you can do to keep yourself grounded) on the daily while with extended family.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us and we are excited to be with you for Season 6, starting January 5th, 2024.
Would love for you to join me and my team at the Spring Retreat. Applications are LIVE to the wait list only THIS Friday, November 24th - you can join the wait list by clicking here.
For more information on RL Academy, click here.
Would love to connect with you on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus.
We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop!
Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list.
Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast.
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This week on RL Radio - NOT going back to the way it was
This is the final episode of Season #5. We had a hard time putting a pin in this Season - we had so much fun laughing with each other (and hopefully with you guys as you listened in). I also realize that we bring out the tears in a lot of our listeners, so for that - well, I’m grateful that you were able to grieve and connect and know that we love you all!
I wanted us to loop back to Episode #60 where Jason talked about the rubric for living out recovery in life. (Which, btw, for any of you that read this - would you like for us to make a graphic of that rubric?! if so, please email me, subject line podcast and let me know!)
We re-listened to parts of Episode #60 before recording this episode and Jason mentioned in that episode that some men want to do life the way they have always done it, minus the acting out. I see this as a huge issue with the clients I work with - this temptation to just go back to the way it was (for him) once he has stopped acting out. So Jason talked through a Rubric that can be used to live life from a recovery mindset. At the end of the episode, one of the questions I had for Jason was: what makes him even *want* to go back to life as it was? We didn’t have time to dig into that question on episode #60 so here we are - digging into it now. You’re welcome.
Jason shares a handful of reasons men want to go back to life as it was before (and I added in one at the end) - what would you add to this list?
Fear of wholesale change / Identity shifts. Being “comfortably numb”. Ignorance Religion / Faith Being the center of the universe (as the addict) and the desire to go back to that. Arrogance and pride. Shame (including both appropriate biblical shame or toxic shame)I love at the end when Jason said that too many people think recovery is going to meetings. When actually recovery is actually #1 - sanctification and #2 - life work. Boom.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us!
You can listen to Episode #60 - A Rubric for Living Out Recovery In Life here Jason refers to Pink Floyd and Comfortably Numb - he says they are great theologians - I wanted to ask him what in the world he meant by that - but I decided not to, we will save that for next season. I was mistaken, when I referred to Deuteronomy for the four connectors (mind, heart, body and soul) - I was actually referring to Luke 10:27. Jason refers to the story of Jesus and the invalid in John 5:1-14. I misunderstood Jason during the recording - I thought he was saying that this story DID occur in the Bible. As I was working on the show notes, I couldn’t find that story (oh my.). So I clarified with Jason - he is saying that there are some men that are prideful and arrogant and would say to Jesus - “I ain’t sick man, I don’t know what you are talking about.” I’m such a #bibletoddler. Would love for you join me and my team at the next Retreat. Applications are LIVE but will be closing soon - click here to access the application. And if you are reading this much later, I would love for you to join the wait list which simply means you will get early notification to apply to the next retreat. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Would love to connect with you on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
This week on RL Radio - Part Two of Moving Toward Divorce with Elizabeth
Picking up where we left off, I start out with a quick recap of what we discussed in part one and then we continue to dig into more of what it looks like to journey well including having hope. Elizabeth mentions this CS Lewis quote - “One day all the sad things will become untrue.” In other words - holding onto hope includes keeping our eyes on the end goal and NAMING those end goals. Elizabeth challenged the listeners to pause at some point and really consider - "what is your end goal?”
We also talked about separation including a legal separation and if / when that is appropriate.
We landed the plane with both Jason and I asking Elizabeth specific questions - I LOVED Jason’s question regarding what would have caused Elizabeth to have paused on moving forward with the divorce - as in, what could he have done to have caused her to pause and shift gears. Elizabeth’s answer is powerful and something that we ALL need to see from him - laying down all the shiny pieces.
We are so grateful for Elizabeth’s partnership with us and for her sharing her wisdom with us. And as she said at the end, this conversation will not end so please send us your questions and thoughts!
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us!
You can listen to our initial interview with Elizabeth, Episode #48, After a Marriage Ends. Elizabeth mentioned John Eldridge’s book (which I have not read yet!) - All Things New. Would love for you join me and my team at the next Retreat. Applications are LIVE but will be closing soon - click here to access the application. And if you are reading this much later, I would love for you to join the wait list which simply means you will get early notification to apply to the next retreat. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Would love to connect with you on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, Masterclasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. -
This week on RL Radio: Moving Toward Divorce - Part 1
We are delighted to have another conversation with Elizabeth from the RLW team! As you will hear, we recorded this episode in May on her, as she said, “would be” anniversary. Oh, the timing.
We didn’t know this when we recorded the episode, but our podcast producers shared recently that Elizabeth’s first time on our podcast (Episode #48, linked below) is the most listened to episode! I am SO not surprised.
We received several questions from listeners asking for us to talk more about what it might look like to prepare for divorce if the path forward starts to potentially include that. Elizabeth shared several things to consider including: support, being aware of trauma in the church, having others that will ask the hard questions and challenge motivations (see note below on Psalm 139:23-24), pacing self and journeying well, grieving well (and leaning in like a buffalo), and finally, reclaiming spaces and places and areas of our hearts.
We are so glad YOU are here, thanks for joining us!
You can listen to our initial interview with Elizabeth, Episode #48, After a Marriage Ends. After the recording, Elizabeth really wanted to make sure we referenced Psalm 139: 23-24 when it comes to challenging our motivations. She meant to share this during the recording but didn’t get to it. Would love for you join me and my team at the next Retreat. Applications are LIVE but will be closing soon - click here to access the application. And if you are reading this much later, I would love for you to join the wait list which simply means you will get early notification to apply to the next retreat. For more information on RL Academy, click here. Would love to connect with you on Instagram - @shelley_martinkus. We offer 1:1 coaching, couples recovery coaching, support groups, MasterClasses and on-line courses - check out our websites: redemptiveliving.com and rlforwomen.com for the full scoop! Click here to subscribe to Shelley’s {almost} monthly letter + announcements. Click here to subscribe to Jason’s list. Questions for the Podcast? Email us with the subject line: Podcast. - Vis mere
