Building a Sustainable Future: Real-World Solutions for Visitor Attractions

9 okt · Skip the Queue

00:34:01

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.

If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.

Special Clips from our previous guests:

Understanding Sustainability Reporting https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/polly-buckland

Polly Buckland sat on the client side in a marketing manager role at BMW (UK) Ltd before co-founding The Typeface Group in 2010. She’s an ideas person, blending creativity and commercial awareness to get the best outcomes for our clients.

The Typeface Group is a B Corp Communications Agency + Design Studio based in North Hampshire. Their mission is to counteract digital chatter by championing authentic and strategic communication. Team TFG work with brilliant minds in business to extract, optimise and amplify their expertise, cutting through content clutter and stimulating sales
while reducing digital waste at all costs. The Typeface Group have been B Corp certified since October 2021 and is currently going through recertification.

Digital Sustainability and the Elephant in the Room https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/james-hobbs

James Hobbs is a people-focused technologist with over 15 years experience working in a range of senior software engineering roles with a particular focus on digital sustainability.
He is Head of Technology at creative technology studio, aer studios, leading the technology team delivering outstanding work for clients including Dogs Trust, BBC, Historic Royal Palaces, and many others. Prior to joining aer studios, James was Head of Engineering at digital agency Great State, where he led a multi-award-winning software engineering team working with clients including the Royal Navy, Ministry of Defence, Honda Europe, the Scouts, and others.

He also has many years experience building and running high-traffic, global e-commerce systems while working at Dyson, where he headed up the global digital technical team.

Making Holkham the UK's most pioneering and sustainable rural estate

https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/lucy-downing-and-sue-penlington

Lucy Downing - Head of Marketing and Sue Penlington - Sustainability Manager at Holkham Estates.

Transcription:

Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions.

Paul Marden: When consumers are asked if they care about buying environmentally and ethically sustainable products, they overwhelmingly answer yes. A recent study by Nielsen IQ found that 78% of us consumers say that a sustainable lifestyle is important to them. And while attractions have been great at a wide range of initiatives to improve their sustainability, this year's Visitor Attraction Website Survey will show that as a sector, we're lagging behind on digital sustainability.

Paul Marden: So in today's episode, I'm going to talk about the learning journey I've been on personally, along with my colleagues at Rubber Cheese, to understand digital sustainability and how to affect real change.

Paul Marden: I'll talk about what I've learned from hosting this podcast and how we've started to make real changes to our processes and our client sites to make them more sustainable. Welcome to Skip the queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden.

Paul Marden: Back in April, I spoke to Polly Buckland from The Typeface Group about the importance of sustainability reporting.

Polly Buckland: There's buckets of research out there as to the relationship between consumer behaviour and sustainability. So McKinsey did a study. “60% of customers actively prioritise purchasing from sustainable businesses.” Capgemini, “77% of customers buy from and remain loyal to brands that show their social responsibility.” I could literally keep quoting stats as to why businesses should take their sustainability goals very seriously and the communication of their sustainability initiatives very seriously, because it's becoming clearer.

There was another stat about primarily women making the decisions based on sustainability of a business, and Millennials and Gen Z being sort of high up the list of people that are taking sustainability creds into consideration when they're making a purchase. So, I mean, it's a barrel load of stats that suggest if you don't have your eye on sustainability reporting and communicating your sustainability goals, you perhaps should have.

Paul Marden: Of course, many attractions have been blazing a trail on the subject of sustainability for years. Going back in the archives of Skip the Queue to 2021, Kelly spoke to Lucy Downing, the Head of Marketing, and Sue Penlington, the Sustainability Manager for the Holkham Estate. First, let's hear from Kelly and Lucy.

Kelly Molson: Lucy, I wondered if you could just give us an overview of Holkham Estates for our listeners that might not be aware of you or visited there themselves.

Lucy Downing: So if you sort of picture it, most of the time when you think about stately homes, you picture a stately home with a garden. At Holkham, we are very much a landscape with a stately home. So 25,000 acres. We have a national nature reserve. A beach, b eautiful beach. It's been in Shakespeare in love. If you know the final scenes of Gwyneth Paltrow walking across the sands, that's Holkham, a bsolutely stunning. We're a farm, but at the centre of that, we've also got our 18th century palladian style mansion and that's home to Lord Lady Leicester and their family. They live in the halls. It's a lived in family home. But then we also have all of our visitor facing businesses.

Lucy Downing: So we've got the hall, our Holkham stories experience, which is an attraction museum telling us all history and the now and the future of Holkham.

Lucy Downing: We've got a high ropes course, cycle hire, boat hire, normally a really buzzing events calendar. We have accommodations. We've got Victoria Inn, which is near the beach. We've also got Pine Woods, which is a holiday park with caravans and lodgers. We have our self catering lodges, which within the park. And then we've got farming, conservation, gamekeeping, land and properties. We've got nearly 300 properties on the estate that are tenanted. A lot of those people work for Holkham, or if not, they work in the local community. We've got forestry and then we've also officiated and it's won lovely awards for the best place to work in the UK. It's a stunning landscape that surrounds it and we've got. I don't know if you've heard of her, but Monica Binnedo, which is global jewellery brand, she's based at Longlands at the offices.

Lucy Downing: She decided a few years back to base her whole business there. She got all of her shops around the world, but that's where her business is. And I think she's ahead of the times, ahead of this year. She sort of knew how wonderful it would be to be working, I suppose, and not in a city centre, so I hope that gives you a flavour. But, yeah, I think it's 25,000 acres of beauty, landscapes with a house in the middle and lots of wildlife.

Kelly Molson: I mean, it really is one of the most beautiful places and that stretch of the world holds a really special place in our hearts. It's somewhere that we visit very frequently and it's stunningly beautiful.

Paul Marden: Later in that episode, Sue shared her insights on their sustainability strategies.

Sue Penlington: So we've got three main themes. One is pioneering environmental gain I, which is all about connecting ecosystems and biodiversity and habitats. One is champion low carbon living, which is all about carbon emissions, our impact on construction and housing, our leisure operations. That sort of thing, and farming. And then the last one is the one that we always talk about. Tread lightly, stamp out waste. So that's all about recycling, reducing single use plastics and that sort of thing. So those three themes are what we're running with for 2021. We've got three goals, which are quite ambitious as well. And for me, I just see 2021 as that year of change where we'll make an impact. So we've done quite a lot of talking, and rightly so, and we want to take our visitors on that journey and really start to chip away at those goals.

Paul Marden: Now, let's talk a little bit about the fears around talking about sustainability. I think one of the things that is getting in the way of an open discourse around digital sustainability is fear. We're afraid of being judged by our actions and our intentions. In a recent survey by Unilever of social media influencers, 38% were afraid to openly discuss sustainability for fear of being accused of greenwashing. Again, let's hear from Polly, which is.

Polly Buckland: Why, again, that storytelling part of the impact reporting is really important for me, because I will say we are not perfect. These are the things that we know we need to work on, but these are the things we've done better. And that's what I really like. The BCorp BIA assessment and their framework is because it takes you across five categories of measurement, and no one's perfect in any of them, but what it does do is it provides a framework for you to better.

Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely.

Polly Buckland: And measure yourself against. Yeah, I think if. I think the messaging behind your sustainability is really important. If you're professing to be perfect and you're not, you will get stung, because I think people can see through that. But if you are showing that you're trying to better, I don't think many people could argue with that.

Paul Marden: Now, let's rewind a little and talk about my interest in digital sustainability. When I spoke to James Hobbs of the aer studios about digital sustainability back in July, we talked about my ignorance. So my background was at British Airways and I was there for ten years. It really wasn't that hard to spot the fact that environmentally, that we have a challenging problem, because when you stood on the end of Heathrow Runway, you can see what's coming out the back end of a 747 as it takes off. But I don't think I ever quite understood the impact of what I do now and how that's contributing more to CO2 emissions than what I was doing previously, which, yeah, I just don't think there's an awareness of that more broadly.

James Hobbs: No, yeah, I'd agree. And it's complicated.

Paul Marden: In what way?

James Hobbs: I guess it's complicated to quantify the carbon impact of the type of work that we do in the digital industry because I guess there's what we're shipping to end users, which is one thing, but most modern websites and applications and stuff are built on a big tower of cloud services providers and all of their equipment has to be manufactured which has a carbon impact and rare earth metals need to be mined out of the grid. All of that stuff. Theres a big supply chain backing all this stuff and we can influence some of that directly, but a large chunk of it, we cant. So it makes choosing your suppliers quite important.

Paul Marden: But in a presentation by my friend Andy Eva-Dale, now CTO of the agency Tangent, he opened my eyes to the impact that the digital sector has on the environment. The Internet consumes 1021 terawatt hours of electricity per year. That's more than the entire United Kingdom. Globally, the average webpage consumes approximately 0.8 grammes of CO2 per page view. For a website with 10,000 monthly page views, that's 102 kilos of CO2 per year.

And as we'll see in a bit, the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey shows this year that the websites in our sector are anything but average. But let's talk about my learning journey. I've used this podcast as a way to learn about the sector and to drill down into sustainability itself. My interviews with Polly and James taught me a lot. It's one of the real benefits of running a podcast.

Paul Marden: I can sit and ask people questions that in real life they may not want to talk about. Beginning from absolute first principles. Following the advice from James in the podcast, I've gone and studied the online materials published by the Green Software foundation, including their green software practitioners certificate. Some of that is quite technical, but a lot of what's in there is a real interest to a lot of people. Now let's talk a little bit about what I've learned along that journey.

In an interesting conversation with Andy Povey the other day, he talked about people's innate reaction to digital sustainability and that for many people, the move to digital feels sustainable. I'm not printing things out anymore, so it must be sustainable. Of course, all that computation and networking has a massive global impact on greenhouse gas emissions, so not every website is sustainable.

Paul Marden: In another conversation I had recently, someone said to me, why does all of this digital sustainability stuff matter? If I host my site on a green hosting server, there's no harmful emissions from the server. But that's only one part of a complex web. The power needed to connect up all the servers in the world and to all of the endpoint devices is immense. Of course, the carbon emitted to generate power varies country by country as well as by time.

And that's not really in our control. But we can definitely control the impact our website has on all of that infrastructure. As the web page is in flight over the Internet to somebody's mobile device, the power it uses and consequently the carbon emitted along the way is therefore something that's definitely in our control.

Paul Marden: The other source of learning for us this year has been the sustainability elements of the rubber cheese survey of visitor attraction websites. We made sustainability a core theme of this year's survey and we found some really interesting things. 80% of attractions in our survey have got some sort of sustainability policy, which is an amazing achievement and sets a benchmark for the sector. Also, a number of attractions are taking active steps to improve the sustainability of their website.

But we found that this isn't necessarily being done in a framework of measuring and monitoring the sustainability of their website. So the changes that people are making could be making improvements to the sustainability of their site, but at worst, some of the techniques being used could actually harm the performance and sustainability of the website.

Paul Marden: The thing is, if you're not testing and measuring, you can't ever know whether the changes that you're making are effective. The Green Business Bureau talk about how benchmarks provide a reference point to assess trends and measure progress and baseline global data. They say, "Companies have begun measuring sustainability performance, which allows them to make continuous assessments, evaluate where they lie on the sustainability agenda and make data driven decisions and policies.

Measuring sustainability requires proper selection of key sustainability metrics and a means of making effective process improvements. These measures provide real time data and much needed quantitative basis for organisations to strategise and mitigate environmental and social and economic risks." I'll come back to making process improvements later, but for now let's just stick with measures. Back to James Hobbs, who talked about the ways in which you can measure the CO2 emissions on our website.

James Hobbs: There are some tools out there that you can use to help you quantify the carbon impact of what you've got out there in the wild now. So the big one that most people talk about is websitecarbon.com, which is the website carbon calculator that was built by, I think a combination of an agency and some other organisations come up with an algorithm, it's obviously not going to be 100% accurate because every single website app is slightly different and so on, and as a consistent benchmark for where you are and a starting point for improvement. Tools like that are really good. Ecograder is another one. Those offer non technical routes to using them.

Paul Marden: Now, both of these websites use similar technologies and methodologies to understand the CO2 emissions of a website. But the survey shows more than half of attractions have never tested the CO2 emissions of their site. This got me thinking. If it's that easy to test the sustainability of a single webpage and you can run them on any website, but most attractions aren't doing it, then what can we as Rubber Cheese do to help? So in this year's survey, we've run the largest audit of visitor attraction sustainability scores that we're aware of. So working with our lovely podcast producer Wenalyn, who also supports me with the survey, firstly, I run a proof of concept gathering and comparing data for a small number of attractions in our database this year.

Paul Marden: Once we began to better understand the data, Wenalyn went and ran this against all of the sites that were in our database. With this, we hope to support the sector with a benchmark of webpage sustainability that can be used by anyone in the sector. And what this has shown us is that 58% of attraction websites are rated f by Website Carbon. That's 8% worse than the general population of all websites. But the sobering thing for me as an agency owner is that the sites that we build were in that 58%. The work that we've been doing recently isn't good enough from a sustainability perspective. So this triggered a number of projects internally for us to improve the sustainability posture of the sites that we design and build.

Paul Marden: So I'm going to dig into one of those sites and the journey we've been on to remediate the sustainability of their site, because I think it can give a really nice understanding of the journey that you have to go on, the changes that you can make, and what the impact of those changes could be. Now, we started by benchmarking the scores for the site in question from Website Carbon and Ecograder. And this site was a grade F and marked 51 out of 100 by Ecograder. From there, we drove our improvements off of the feedback that Ecograder gave us. We worked as a team to estimate the work involved in the feedback from Ecograder to identify the tasks with the lowest estimated effort and the highest potential impact.

Paul Marden: Essentially going for the quick wins, we implemented a number of really simple measures, we implemented lazy loading of images. This is making the browser only download images when they're just about to show on screen. If you don't lazy load an image on a page, then when the webpage opens, the browser will go and grab the image, calculate the size, and redraw the webpage with that image in it, even though the image is off screen. If the user then clicks something in the top part of the screen, maybe in the top navigation, and they never scroll down, they will never see that image. So all that network traffic that was used, all the computation in the browser to be able to figure out the size and paint the screen, was completely wasted because the user never got to see the image.

Paul Marden: So by lazy loading, it means that if a person doesn't scroll all the way down the page, then an image near the bottom of the page will never get loaded. And it's an incredibly simple code change that you can write in now. This used to be something that you had to write custom code to implement, but most browsers now support lazy loading, so it should be really easy for people to implement that.

Paul Marden: Another thing that we did was to correctly size images. We found that, but with best rule in the world, our editors were uploading images that were very high resolution, very big images, even though on screen we might only show a thumbnail. By resizing the images inside WordPress, we've made it easy for our editors to upload whatever size image that they like. But we only share the smaller image when somebody views the webpage, again, cutting down network traffic as a result of that. One other thing that we made a change on was to make the website serve more modern image formats.

Paul Marden: Again, we used a WordPress package to do this, called imagify, and it means that our editors can upload images using the file formats that they're familiar with, like JPEG, GIF and PNG, but that we convert them to more modern formats like WebP inside WordPress. And that has better compression, making the images smaller without any discernible loss of quality, and making the whole webpage smaller, lighter, faster as a result of it, which has the impact of reducing the CO2 emissions that are needed to be able to use that webpage just as a guide. We measure everything that we do in the business in terms of the time it takes us to do things. So we're real sticklers for time tracking, but it was really important in this project for sustainability to work out what the differences were that were making.

Paul Marden: So these changes, those three that I just outlined there cost us about a day and a half of development effort and much of that was done by one of our junior developers. So it wasn't hugely complex work that was done by an expensive, experienced developer. But in return for those changes, that one and a half days of effort, we've seen an improvement in rating by website carbon from F to B and on eco grader from 54 out of 100 to 83 out of 100. This puts the site well into the realm of better than most websites on the Internet and better than 84% of attractions in this year's survey. Is it enough? No, of course not. We can do more and in fact, there are still technical improvements that we can make that don't impinge at all on the user's experience.

Paul Marden: We can and we will make more changes to move the site from B to A or even to A+. But there's no doubt that following the old 80-20 rule, these marginal gains will be progressively harder and more costly to achieve. And there may be changes that are needed that will impinge on the user experience. Some things you cannot improve from a sustainability perspective without changing what the user is going to experience. If you've got an auto playing video on your website that consumes bandwidth, it generates network traffic. You cannot remove that video without removing the video entirely and changing it to be something that isn't autoplay but plays w hen a button presses that will have an impact on the user experience. Not everyone will click that button.

Paul Marden: Not everyone will watch that video and say not everyone will necessarily have the same feeling about the attraction that they got when there was an autoplay video in place. But there are undoubtedly lots of things that can be done that don't impact the user experience of the site. One of the changes that we still haven't made, which is a little bit more effort, it's a little bit more complexity, and adds a little bit of costs to the hosting of the website is the introduction of a Content Delivery Network or CDN. Here's James Hobbs again from aer.

James Hobbs: From a technical angle, I think one of the most impactful things you can do, beyond making sure that your code is optimised and is running at the right times, at the right place, is simply to consider using a content delivery network. And for your listeners who aren't familiar with a content delivery network, a CDN is something that all of us have interacted with at one point or another, probably without realising. In the traditional way of serving or having a website, you've got some service somewhere in a data centre somewhere. When someone types your website address in, it goes and fetches that information from the web server and back comes a web page in the simplest sense.

James Hobbs: Now, if your website servers live in Amsterdam and your users on the west coast of America, that's a big old trip for that information to come back and forth, and it's got to go through lots of different hops, uses up lots of energy. A Content Delivery Network is basically lots and lots of servers dotted all over the planet in all of the major cities and things like that can keep a copy of your website. So that if someone from the West Coast of America says, "Oh, I'm really interested in looking at this w ebsite.", types the address in, they get the copy from a server that might be 10,20, 50 miles away from them, instead of several thousand across an ocean.

James Hobbs: So it loads quicker for the user, which is great from a user experience, SEO, but it's also great from an energy point of view, because it's coming from somewhere nearby and it's not having to bounce around the planet. That's one thing that you could do that will make a massive and immediate impact commercially and from a sustainability point of view.

Paul Marden: So there's another example of something that you can do that has very little impact on the experience of the website. In fact, it massively improves the user experience of the website, takes relatively little effort, but offers a huge improvement. Those are all things that we've done to one individual website. Let's talk a little bit about how we bake that into our process. In a 2022 article in the Harvard Business Review about how sustainability efforts fall apart, they recommend embedding sustainability by design into every process and trade off decision making. I found that language really interesting. It's similar to the language used widely in technology and security that was popularised during the launch of the EU General Data Protection Legislation, which talks a lot about having a security by design approach.

Paul Marden: So taking this idea of designing sustainability into every process and trading off the decision making, we've incorporated it into our sales proposal, writing, designing and testing processes. Our people responsible for selling need to bake sustainability into the contract. We want to hold ourselves and our clients accountable for the sometimes difficult decisions around meeting a sustainability target. So we'll discuss that target at the beginning of the project and then hold ourselves to that throughout the design and build process, thereby not needing to do all the remediations that we've just done on the other website, because it's typically much easier, quicker, cheaper for us to implement a lot of those things. The first time through the project, as opposed to as a remediation at the end. We've also baked sustainability testing into our process.

Paul Marden: No site goes live without having been tested by both website carbon and eco grader to make sure that the site meets the criteria that we set out at the beginning of the work. So we've thought a lot about how we can improve what we do and we've started to go back and remediate over some of the work that we've done more recently to make improvements. But my learning journey hasn't been entirely smooth. There are challenges that I've hit along the way. I think there's a few interesting challenges that are to be expected as you're going about learning things that I wanted to share. For example, we've done work to remediate the scores of one of our sites and been super excited with the impact score.

Paul Marden: I mean, went from bottom of the Fs to A+, only to deploy those changes into production and it didn't move the dial at all on the production website. And that was heartbreaking. Once we looked into that in more detail, thinking that we've done loads of changes, move the dial such a dramatic amount, only to launch it into the wild and it barely touched things. What we realised that in the test environment that we used, we had password protection in place and the website carbon and Ecograder were testing the password screen, not the actual homepage underneath it. So there was a lesson learned for us. The other area where we've made lots of learnings is during the survey when we created our sustainability benchmark. We've seen test results so good that they can't be explained. We've seen somebody hitting 100 on Ecograder.

Paul Marden: We've also seen scores that were contradictory on Ecograder and Website Carbon, and also scores that have dropped dramatically. When we first tested in August and did a validation test checked last week, we're still working our way through these wrinkles and I think some of it is because we're looking at many hundreds of websites rather than trying to learn by testing and improving just one site. But beyond the kind of technical challenges, there remain some things that I simply don't understand. And my mission going forward is to fill those gaps. Firstly, while both Ecograder and Website Carbon use the same underlying principles and tools to calculate CO2 emissions, they often can and do give different results.

Paul Marden: Not just in the fact that one is A+, a F score and the other is out of 100, but that the basic page sizing in kilobytes and consequently the CO2 can and often is different depending on which tool you look at. And I don't understand why that is, and I need to look into that. And I'm sure we'll come back to the podcast and talk more about that once I do understand it better. But the other problem is that I'm struggling with the size of the problem and the size of the prize. There's no doubt in my mind that making these improvements is the morally right thing to do, and commercially it's right as well, because it improves your outcomes on the website as well as the sustainability.

Paul Marden: I'm just struggling with the business case, because if I had an unlimited budget, I do make every change in business that improves the sustainability posture of the business. But most marketers, most people that listen to this podcast don't have an infinite budget. They have a very finite budget, and so they have to put their budget to work where it's going to have the most impact. And what's the return on investment of spending 5k on improving the website versus changing light bulbs to leds, or moving away from gas powered water heaters in the outside toilets by the penguins? It's really difficult at the moment for me to be able to understand where this is the right and sensible investment of sustainability funding within an organisation. So I've shared my learning journey over the year. What about you? What can you do next?

Paul Marden: For one last thought, let's head back to the conversation between Kelly and Lucy and Sue from Holkham.

Kelly Molson: Are there any advice that you could share with our listeners in terms of how they start or begin to look at sustainability?

Lucy Downing: Interesting. I was chatting with Lord Leicester yesterday about the subject and were sort of agreeing that I think you definitely need to know where you are, particularly as a business. You know where you are, because then you can set your goals in a realistic fashion. And I think the one thing to remember is that it has to be realistic, because you need to set goals that you can financially deliver, because if they're not financially viable, then you're not going to be here as a business to deliver them. And what we're also finding and talking to other businesses that actually quite a lot of the sustainability gains that you can make are actually in financial ones too, because you probably cut down on some of your resources that you're using, you'll think better, you'll work smarter.

Lucy Downing: So it's just, I think that's something to definitely remember, that it has to be sustainable in all ways, socially, financially and environmentally. That's definitely some key advice. And I think be authentic. There's a lot of talk around greenwashing. Don't be guilty of thinking, wow, this is something we really should do and we're going to do it and just talk about it. It has to be authentic. So really think about where you can make the biggest changes environmentally for sustainability and focus on those and just make sure. Yeah, it's like us really. We're saying we're launching our sustainability strategy, but actually for the past ten years, we've now we've got 100 acre solar farm, we've got anaerobic digester, we heat the hall and all of our businesses with woodchip, so we've got our biomass boilers.

Lucy Downing: So we've been doing it for quite a long time without telling anyone. But what we're now doing is saying, actually, that's not even enough, we need to up it further. So, yeah, that's the thing. I think it just has to be authentic and realistic.

Sue Penlington: Yeah. And from my point of view, I'm a bit of a doer do and not a talker, so don't get bogged down. It could be absolutely overwhelming. And I think when I was first approached by my boss here, I was just like, wow. Because it isn't just rubbish, it's every single business.

Sue Penlington: It's huge. But from my point of view, small differences can make a really big impact and keep chipping away at it because solutions are out there. There's loads of people doing really cool things. And, you know, every night I'm on Google looking up something else or going down another rabbit hole because I've seen something on Twitter. So for me, every day is a school day. But, yeah, get stuck in and collaborate with other like minded people. You know, nowadays you're not considered swampy because you're talking about sustainability.

Sue Penlington: Well, you know, it's totally on brand, isn't it? And let's not reinvent the wheel. If we can learn from other people, then let's do that. I mean, go for it. Literally, every single individual can make a difference.

Kelly Molson: Oh, Sue, that's. Yeah, you've just got me right there, sue. And I think what you said about collaborating and learning from people, that has been something that's so key this year. People are so willing to share their plans, they're so willing to share what they're doing and how they're doing things. Especially within this sector, there's always somebody that's doing or, you know, a couple of steps ahead of you that you can learn from. And people are so willing to kind of give up that advice and their time at the moment as well. So definitely that's a key one for me. Ask people. Ask people for help. Ask people how to do things.

Paul Marden: I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to this episode, including Kelly, Lucy and Sue at Holkham, Polly at TFG and James at aer. Thanks to everyone that's helped me with this journey in the last year, the lovely clients we've talked to, the survey respondents, and my team at Rubber Cheese, Steve, Ben, Tom, Sinead, Wenalyn, and Oz, who've all worked really hard to benchmark the sector and to make continuous improvements to our client's sustainability. As you know, we're really experimenting with the podcast format at the moment, and if you like this or any of the other changes, I'd love to hear. And if you don't, then tough, go make your own podcast. Only joking. I'd love to hear. If you think we can make improvements, you can find me on X, @paulmarden and also on LinkedIn.

Paul Marden: If you're at VAC this week, the Visitor Attraction Conference, then I'll be there with Oz and Andy. So come and say hi to us and I'll see you again in a couple of weeks time.

Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.

Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE!

Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions

Download the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

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Innovating for Change: Youth, Climate, and the Science Centres of Tomorrow
27 nov· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.
If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Competition ends on 11th December 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Our guests:
https://www.wethecurious.org/
Chris Dunford, Sustainability and Science Director at We The Curious
As Sustainability and Science Director, Chris Dunford has been responsible for Sustainable Futures at We The Curious since 2011. During that time, he has introduced a sector-leading programme of environmental best practice, innovative technologies, and organisational change. In 2019, We The Curious became the first science centre in the world to declare a climate emergency and pledged to meet ambitious decarbonisation targets in this decade, implemented alongside climate change adaptation.
Beyond We The Curious, Chris has held positions as Head of Environmental Sustainability at UKRI, Elected Director of the Bristol Green Capital Partnership, Mentor of Arizona State University’s ‘Sustainability in Science Museums’ Global Fellowship, and Chair of the ASDC Decarbonisation Group. Chris’ background is in science communication and stand-up comedy.
https://w5online.co.uk/
Victoria Denoon is the Head of Visitor Experience at W5 Science and Discovery Centre.
Victoria joined W5 Science and Discovery Centre in March 2020 and has responsibility for all aspects of W5’s operations. She is also currently an ASDC Trustee. Prior to joining the team at W5, she worked in Higher Education in the United States for 15 years with a particular interest in advancing the careers of women in STEM fields.
http://www.aberdeensciencecentre.org/
Bryan Snelling is the CEO of Aberdeen Science Centre.
He’s been in this position for five years having started in November 2019. Bryan has worked in the visitor attraction sector for 11 years having previously enjoyed 6 years as CEO at The Gordon Highlanders Museum in Aberdeen. Bryan has worked in many sectors during his career including education having worked across the UK in Portsmouth and London before moving to Aberdeen. Bryan is originally from South Wales and in his spare time he enjoys playing the guitar, playing cricket and reading.
https://www.sciencecentres.org.uk/
Shaaron Leverment is the Chief Executive at The Association for Science and Discovery Centres.
Shaaron is the CEO of ASDC and has over 20 years' experience working in science engagement and education. She stands for the value of science centres and museums for social good, as community assets that are accessible and relevant for a more diverse public.

Shaaron joined ASDC in 2016 as the Deputy CEO. She is also the co-founding director of 'Explorer Dome' that engages over 70,000 children and adults every year. She leads on a number of national and international programmes and collaborations that aim to improve the relevance and accessibility of STEM for a more diverse public. As a past president of the British Association of Planetaria, she is also currently the EDI co-chair of the International Planetarium Society. Shaaron is mum to two boys, and the owner of a large hairy Golden Retriever.

She is part of varied networks, working with schools, universities, science centres, museums and volunteer groups, as well as nation-wide professional associations and Government agencies. She has created and directed national and international (EU) science engagement programmes, including leading the Horizon 2020 Hypatia programme in the UK to support greater gender inclusion in informal science education, and is the driving force behind Our Space Our Future, supporting participative practice in space science outreach.

Through work with ASDC, Ecsite and other international partnerships, Shaaron is known for her work to support greater equity and inclusion within our STEM education and engagement organisations, with the ambition of embedding more equitable practice for transformative organisation-wide change.
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue. A podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.
Now, today's episode is a special one. A few days ago I was at the Association for Science and Discovery Centre's annual conference recording in front of a live studio audience. Joined by a panel of the great and good from the Science and Discovery Centre community, Victoria Denoon, Head of Visitor Experience at W5 Science and Discovery Centre. Bryan Snelling, the CEO of Aberdeen Science Centre. Chris Dunford at ASDC Sustainability Group Chair and Sustainability Director at We the Curious. And Shaaron Leverment, the CEO of ASDC. Now, I have to say, this was a bit of a proof of concept for us and we had a few technical gremlins, but whilst the sound quality isn't brilliant, the conversations absolutely were.
Paul Marden: So without further ado, let's go over to that recording I took a couple of days ago. Why don't we start with our icebreaker questions? So this is a tradition for the podcast and nobody has been prepared for this. So, Victoria, you'll like this one. It's a really easy one. Bauble or custard cream?
Victoria Denoon: You said it was going to be easy.
Paul Marden: Oh, no, I could give you my answer straight away. It's a firmly held belief for me. Of course, it's the only answer to that question. Bryan, you have to live in a sitcom for the rest of your life. Which one? And why?
Bryan Snelling: Oh God, can I have the ball? But do you know what? The only one that sprung to mind was Only Fools and Horses. I think, you know, a bit of dodgy dealing here and there. Can't go wrong with that, I think. Yeah, Wheeler dealing, you know what I mean?
Paul Marden: One day Wanda's There'll be millionaires. Chris, play 10 instruments or speak 10 languages.
Chris Dunford: Oh, horrible. I'm going to go for 10 instruments because I feel as if Google can do the rest. But 10 instruments? I can finally record my own albums.
Paul Marden: And Shaaron, last but not least, control time like Hermione or Fly Like Harry.
Shaaron Leverment: Oh, God, fly Like Harry,
Paul Marden: Really?
Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Paul Marden: You don't need a time turner to be in every session. That wasn't the latest question at all. Okay, let's get cracking then with the main interview. Shaaron, first question is for you. This year and next sees the 25th anniversary of the millennium funded science centers which saw a huge amount of investments into science communic engagement across the country. What did that do to shape science in the last quarter of the century? And where do you think it will take us next.
Shaaron Leverment: Great question.
Paul Marden: Thank you.
Shaaron Leverment: Like 25 years ago, as I mentioned in my talk, even no one really knew what science communication was. You know, now obviously there's masters in it, there's people who are doing PhDs in it and I think it's actually becoming a very important part of policy and recognised as strategically important in terms of the way in which nation engages with science. And I do believe that's because we have these amazing places across the U.K. now. Let's be honest, like a lot of them existed beforehand. There was at least 6, including Satrasphere, which is now Aberdeen Science Centre, which existed before the Millennium centers. And then suddenly all of these centers were. But now we've got 60, nearly 70 across the entire places. The Lost Shore is just open, which is all about surf and science.
Shaaron Leverment: I think science, referring to one of our keynotes, is really becoming part of culture. And then we're no longer looking at sort of museums and centres as like cathedrals of science. We're looking at them as real kind of cultural and community assets. So that's where I think. I think that's where the trajectory is going for the next 25 years. I'll just wrap that into the end of that.
Paul Marden: This is a follow up for that and really anyone can join in on this one. Thinking more about where we go in the next 25 years, let's talk about funding streams because we had a big lump of money back just before the millennium projects get them kicked off and we're unlikely to see that level of lottery funding again. So how can centres, after all, they are visitor attractions and charities in many cases. How do they diversify their income streams?
Victoria Denoon: I think there's two things about that and one's really important from the ASDC perspective because there's what we can do individually, but there's also what we can do collectively as a network. So you know, we are looking at that particularly from the Millennium Science Centre perspective.
Victoria Denoon: And obviously that's a bigger voice if we do that together. So that's really important to have those conversations. At W5 we do that by increasing what we do for corporate hire. We do a W5 late program, which is an 18 plus evenings for adults to come down. And because we're going to be 25 years old next year, there's that nostalgia that really helps sell that. So we're looking at key events to drive revenue across the year to really get more people in our door who wouldn't come to us otherwise.
Bryan Snelling: Yeah, I think it's obviously very important to diversify our income. But what we're talking about here, in terms of the money we got in 2019, you're only really going to get that sort of money again from very large institutions or government. And I think whether you're trying to persuade an individual to come and visit your science centre or local, national, devolved governments to give you money, it's all about the message that you're sending. It's about the science centres are really important part, and we were talking about it earlier on, the culture of what we're doing here. So whether you're just one individual or a multinational that has big bucks, you've really got to try and make them understand that.
Chris Dunford: I think it's. Yeah, I think it's almost as well as diversifying to new funders, it's also diversifying what the existing funders will be happy to fund, because I think the funders understandably want the shiny new exhibition, the lovely new outreach in the brand advance, the school workshop photo opportunity. And those are all good things. And we couldn't do those things without the funders. But they'll need to. As these buildings getting older, they need to recognize at some point that those things can take place in the building where the roof leaks and it closes in the summer because the heat wave and the cooling system can't keep up. So I think if you're saying to the funders, yes, you can support this workshop, but we will need some contribution towards the rooms that the workshop take place in.
Chris Dunford: So I think it'd be helpful to understand that. And to do that, we just need to make the case better to our value. So it's not just this extra news thing, but day to day supporting us to literally keep the lights on and keep the rain out of the roof.
Bryan Snelling: Can I just add, I think there's also an important thing here about mission drift. We should be true to our own mission. We should know where we're going, our direction, and not have as much as possible. Because I understand it's a balance. Not have as much as possible. The funder direct what we do. It should be the other way around, or at least. And one of the big words of this conference that I've heard is collaboration. And we shouldn't just be doing it all the money, we should be actually understanding this is what we should be doing and this is how we're going. You should be coming on board with us.
Paul Marden: You risk the tail wagging the dog, don't you? If all you do is chase the sources of funding. And you do that in a haphazard way. It's got to follow, as you say, it's got to follow the mission and the core values of the centre.
Victoria Denoon: And it is a relationship, you know, it's like philanthropy and, you know, universities doing their work with donors. I mean, you really do have to have mutual respect and understanding and be looking for sponsors or funders or partners who have the same mission and values that you do. That conversation becomes a lot easier.
Paul Marden: Absolutely. Shaaron, any thoughts?
Shaaron Leverment: I think I agree with what they're saying. It's really well put.
Paul Marden: This is an audience question and this is from Kate Allen from Purple Stars. And she asked me, is the A in steam in cooperate and why it's not a binary question.
Chris Dunford: Right.
Bryan Snelling: Look it up.
Victoria Denoon: Yes.
Bryan Snelling: Did you see the inflection in that?
Paul Marden: Absolutely.
Bryan Snelling: I think it's a two way process. I think that the A is very important. And again, I'm gonna repeat myself, but I think it's been a big part of what the conference has been about and it's been about collaboration. Yes, it's important, but it's a two way process because it's not all about us incorporating the arts. It's also about the arts incorporating the st, the E and the M and the science elements. So I think it's a two way process at the moment. I feel this is just my own opinion that it's a little bit more give than take.
Shaaron Leverment: I think there's an interesting, you know, there's an interesting conversation of like, do you need an artist for it to be art? What is art and what is science? You know, and actually, you know, so much of, you know, the engagements that we see involve huge creativity, kids making planets and things like that in science. I do think that we need to use all the tools to get across these massive ideas. And I don't actually even know what science is anyway, so I'm on the back.
Shaaron Leverment: And I also noticed in Tom Crick, when he was looking at the curriculum, they separate mathematics and numeracy from science and tech, you know, and so in science, tech engineering is often considered the invisible E in stem. Maths is often considered the invisible M in STEM in science and discovery centres, you know, and so the arts as well. I fully believe that we need to be trans and multidisciplinary 100%. But you know, I think it includes, you know, the music and everything. I think includes absolutely everything. So maybe these acronyms, which is not, they're not useful at all.
Paul Marden: I don't think it helps. One of the things that we talked about when we first. We were spinning ideas around this episode, weren't we? And you talked about the idea that you shocked me, that science matters to me and I care about it. And it's something that I enjoy doing with my family. And to consider that isn't for the government to consider. That's not really part of culture because they're funded quite separately. It offends my roles, I think.
Shaaron Leverment: But also, you know, it's just another beautiful way of looking at the world. You might look up at a night sky, you know, like Mara or Kilda, like we're hearing by Este. And you might look at it with eyes where you're just wondering at the jewelry of creation or making pictures in the stars. Or you might also be wondering about, well, maybe there's a planet out there.
Shaaron Leverment: And I think you can look with all eyes and you can. It's all in wonder. And the fact that they are segregated, it comes back to school science, I think. I think actually in the normal world, as human beings, we don't have to separate them, but it's just very hard, especially when these are crazy funding lines. Like Tom mentioned the difference. I did not know that festivals are considered part of culture, but science festivals aren't. It's madness.
Chris Dunford: It also depends in a way what you're doing. So if you're putting the A into STEAM because you say that as a society, as a cultural attraction, we want to involve ourselves, then obviously, yes, we don't want to. You know, it's inclusive because as Shaaron said, they can. They bring different things to the table. But if you're putting an A in there because you're saying that art is the same as the others, then they're no different. But that's good. It's good that art and science kind of behave in different ways. So. So they both start with an idea or a question. They can both be kind of curious or stimulated by something. But then whether we do night sky or whatever, the way that art might scrutinise the night sky would be different to the way that science will scrutinise. And that's fine.
Chris Dunford: They can complement each other. It's not. You need to recognize the differences in those kind of, I don't know, the intellectual disciplines, so they can support each other rather than say, well, artists, science, design. It's not as simple as that. They're different, but that's okay.
Victoria Denoon: I do think they play a part together in making things more accessible to people. So if you look at major technology companies, they focus just as much on the design and the look of some of their products as they do on the actual technology that goes into them. So there's a lovely added experience there with putting that together. I think it's very important, but for different reasons.
Paul Marden: Absolutely. There's been a lot of talk at the conference about diversity and inclusivity. To a certain extent, inclusion is about understanding who your audience is and understanding what it is that they need.
Paul Marden: So let's dig into that about your three science centres. What are the customer demographics, what does the audience look like and what areas of diversity and inclusion are important to them?
Victoria Denoon: Well, I think that assumes we've actually asked our audiences, you know, what is important to them. And I don't, you know, I'd like to sort of throw that over to other representatives for science centres because we have done some of that, but we probably haven't done it enough to be able to actually answer that question. That's something we are really looking at because we have a lot of different information about the demographics, but not really what they want to see us do. So we're looking at different focus groups and how to involve more people in that to get a better picture of that for our particular science centre.
Bryan Snelling: I think we were very lucky to receive a lot of well enough ISF funding plus local funding to completely overhaul our science centre four years ago. What happened four years ago, it was wonderful. But as Shaaron said, we're actually not a millennium sites and we've been going for 36 years. I think tech request, slightly longer than us,
Shaaron Leverment: 38.
Bryan Snelling: There we go. But not many longer than us. But over that time we've asked and we found out a lot of information about what our visitors wanted. And similar to what Victoria said, we don't necessarily ask enough. We recognise that's a bad thing. We need and we are putting in place and now to evaluate to get feedback more. But back then were very aware of sort of things that we needed to do. We needed to be wheelchair user friendly.
Bryan Snelling: So everything is now accessible throughout the science centre. We're one of the lucky places that have a changing places facility which is incredibly good and it's gone down very well. We also have a sensory space which was retrofitted admittedly. But if you look at our feedback on the online, that's gone down fantastically well and it allows some of our neurosensitive visitors just to calm down, go there and just take a moment and then come back and I think the very fact that we're a science centre, it's very hands on, it's very stimulating.
Bryan Snelling: So having that has been a real wonderful addition to what we've got. And I think we've also got to remember financial inclusion. So a lot of the sort of sponsorship that we look for is to work with in Scotland. It's called simd, the Scottish Index for Multiple Deprivation.
Chris Dunford: I'm sure there's a similar thing in England, but I want to know what it is.
Paul Marden: We'll talk about that in a minute.
Bryan Snelling: But we a lot of again, it's not mission drift when you are also doing it. A lot of our funders want to give us money so we can support those maybe who don't have as much money as the rest of us. So all of these things we've taken into account and parts of what we do at the science centre.
Chris Dunford: Yeah. I suppose the question ultimately is when we ask our visitors what does inclusion, diversity mean to them, we won't get the answer we need. And that's because if you have a certain demographic who are visiting and you ask them diversity, inclusion, then obviously they will speak from their own life experience. But actually the people need to ask the people who aren't visiting. So in that respect, I mean the things we draw upon, we work closely with things like local council, so we have access to their data of who's living in the city and who's facing areas of deprivation and that kind of thing.
Chris Dunford: So you can kind of fairly accurately figure out who's around you in your community and who's around you in your community isn't mirroring who's coming through the door and straight away you know where your focus areas are and the reason they might not be visiting, it might be economic, but it could also because there's things that you do unintentionally. It makes it look like you're not for them.
Paul Marden: Yes.
Chris Dunford: So only by engaging with them, seeing you through their eyes, will you understand maybe why you've been doing a thing which wasn't encouraged when they through the door. I suppose the last thing to say on that is often it's very tempting to think the inclusion thing is going to be groups that can't afford to visit and therefore Chapel saying it may be then detracting from the purely commercial enterprise we need to do to keep the buildings open and running.
Chris Dunford: And for some areas who cannot afford to visit, then yes, that's an important part of what you do. But there could be areas, community who aren't visiting. And they can afford to visit because for some reason you're not currently for them, you can become for them. And you've also opened up a whole other market as well. So whether you're looking at it because you want more visitors financially, or you're looking at it because you want to be able to reach everyone, you need to ask who's in the city, who isn't here currently visiting and can we find out why they're not visiting? And then we just work through those challenge at a time until you hopefully are truly reflecting those around you.
Paul Marden: I was at a Museum and Heritage Show earlier this year. There was a really interesting talk about inclusivity and making places accessible. And one of the key facts was that people that need an accessible place to visit, if they don't know something is accessible because you haven't communicated it properly, they will assume you are not accessible. And so having the changing places toilet and the sensory room is amazing. But you also have to communicate that to people in order for them to come and feel like it is a place for them. And that's. You're right, it's not about the charitable end of the organisation. It can be just a commercial thing. When you tell that story simply and easily for people, all of a sudden you are not going to market.
Shaaron Leverment: We're sort of encouraging people. We've got an accessibility conference coming up in May which will be hosted by Winchester. And hopefully between now and then we can really support people with some of these amazing visual stories. Because I think you're absolutely right that you do need to know if it's accessible. You need to know what facilities you need to have those opportunities to know that there's a quiet space and what to expect. And then someone, honestly, if they know what's there and what's not there, then that's enough.
Paul Marden: I've talked about this example before podcast, but Skipton Town Hall is an amazing example. They've got a museum whose name escapes me, but they won last year's Kids in Museum's Family Friendly award. But they have an amazing page that talks about their accessibilities with photos and videos where you can see the entrance, every entrance to the building and where that entrance will lead you to. It shows you the changing places toilet. You know, they are making it super easy for you to be able to understand that. And it's on your page, but it's a page that's hugely valuable on their website.
Victoria Denoon: I think just beyond what you can do on your own. Site for that. There are organisations you can work with that tell people the story about what attractions in their area are accessible. So making sure you know who those groups are and working with them to get your story out and how you can support that's really important.
Paul Marden: I've got Tudor in front of me from Eureka and I know that's something that Eureka has done a lot of is communicating the accessibility of what they deeds the outside world. I'm going to take your Scottish index of multiple deprivation and take that back to the uk. I'm going to talk a little bit about Cambridge Science Centre because they've passed two weeks ago, they've just opened their new building and one of the things that they talked about on the podcast with me was that part of the motivation for locating it on Cambridge Science park was because it is cheap by jail with one of the areas of multiple deprivation within the city.
Paul Marden: They run youth groups in that area and what they found was that even though these kids are in a youth group associated with the Science centre and they are right next door to the Science park, those kids don't feel that a career in Science in the UK's hotspot for tech is a place where they could end up.
Paul Marden: They just don't feel like it is of them. So how do we help those kids and families in those areas feel like science centres are for them and a career in the future and in science and tech is an opportunity for them?
Bryan Snelling: I think when were redesigning the Aberdeen Science Centre, as I said, the only thing that's still there because It's a Category 2 listed building is the outer walls. But what we looked at that time was we said, well, how can we make it relevant to the northeast of Scotland? So we have three zones in the Science Centre which relates to either the up and coming or very much mature economies up there. We have an energy zone, of course we do, but space, you know, Shetland is on our patch, big patch, so is Sutherland and those of you who know Scotland, very big patch. That sort of space is a big part of what's happening up in northeast Scotland, but also life sciences. So we made it relevant so that people on an everyday sort of and kids can sort of relate to things.
Bryan Snelling: I think we're the only city and people will help me out here and bring me down to size if that's the case. We have hydrogen buses in Aberdeen. I think we're one of the only, let's go like that. One of the only cities that currently do that and they see these things travelling through the city centre every day. But you know, they want to know more about that. So it's about making it relevant, making it day to day obvious that this, you can work in this because actually it's there or it's that or it's yes. The other thing is about showing the other careers that you can link it, you can focusing on space, but there's more than just that. You somebody said, yes, you also need to have a chef in the Antarctica.
Bryan Snelling: So show them the other careers actually link in with this sort of and just make it relevant.
Chris Dunford: Yeah, and I think obviously if you've got sections of society where there's young people who feel that science isn't for them, I think the first thing to recognise obviously is that they are in their lives. They're obviously getting messages that are telling them that's the case in the way in which children from other backgrounds are getting messages telling them what science is for them. And you can see that through the lens of the science capital. You can't control all of those, but you can control how you interact with them. Now, obviously what Cambridge did is they were able to physically relocate. Most of us aren't in that position in terms of the whole building, although that reached us the ability to do that on a complete short term basis.
Chris Dunford: But I think again it's recognising that inclusion work is so much more than just kind of saying, “Hey, we are free. Why don't you come along today and you can visit for free or whatever.” It's the diversity of your staff and that's across the organisation. Because if they visit and they see someone that looks like them and that tells them that it is for them in a way in which it's going to be very difficult to do with the people actually working there don't look like people they would recognise as being in that kind of group in that way. It's about the activities themselves. So again, the ideas of kind of co development. So if you develop activities, rather than guess what you think they would like, just find out what they would like and involve them in those activities.
Chris Dunford: So inclusion is difficult and it takes a lot of time because you can't just kind of put a sign on the door and say work for you now. You need to change the organisation. So it is enabling them to visit and then to keep that relationship going. That's the other thing that's very difficult. But I think if you did one funded visit and they came once and that was it, that might not be Enough to make them go, “Oh, so I can't be a scientist.” You get some kind of relationship with them going on over time. So yeah, it's a long, drawn out process, which means you need to look very hard at yourself and be prepared and brave to make changes in your own organisation. Because unintentionally you are probably putting some of the barriers there yourselves.
Shaaron Leverment: I just want to echo that it really is about building those relationships. We ran a program called Explorer Universe across eight centres. And you know, we were all about extra partnerships and being brave and making new engagement to people who would never have thought to come through your doors. And you know, it ended up being like a year long of partnership building and then those relationships and almost all the programs were outreach. Some of them ended up, you know, as a celebratory event coming through the science centre. But it was very much going to where the kids were going to their space, you know, physically and emotionally and mentally, whatever, and working in partnership. So if you don't have the staff that reflect that community, then you can work in partnership and create those moments.
Shaaron Leverment: And then when they do come to the centre, be there at the front door to welcome them. You know, I know you and it's very much, you know, like an experience floor In North Wales. Were working in a playground, you know, and talking all about them jumping off the playground with like parachutes, talking about friction and stuff like that. And one of the best quotes from that was like, I didn't realise this was science. You're like turning what they are doing and saying that you are a techie, techie person, you are a sciencey person, you are an engineer. That's what it is.
Shaaron Leverment: You know, it's not saying this is what science is, you know, it's changing the capital that they have already into science capital to know that they are already inherent, as Osley said, inherent sort of scientists anyway.
Paul Marden: Yes.
Shaaron Leverment: So, yeah.
Victoria Denoon: I think science centres are in a really wonderful space here to be able to do that because, you know, we do build relationships with community groups and schools all the time. And research has shown that these young people, why they see themselves in relation to their peers, that will attract them more than anything else into potential careers in science. So having a space where people can come and, you know, we don't tell them, don't touch that, don't do that.
Victoria Denoon: You know, they can really fully get hands on and engage in things and having that opportunity. We just opened two years ago, our Learning Innovation for Everyone Space. We offer free school programs there, particularly in partnership with Microsoft and do coding workshops and things like that and lots of other activities and you can also do OCN accredited programs with us there. So it's really about getting them together as a group of their peers and showing them what's possible in that space.
Paul Marden: That's amazing. So I'm a dev by background. Telling the story of Computer Science is not something that you see in every science centre that you go to. The whole kind of the history of computing, it exists in places, there are pockets of it. But it's not something that I want to coding club as well. But how many of my kids could go to a local science centre and feel that what they're doing when they're coding the robot and building some Lego is related to something that they see when they're at the science centre and that there's a mental leap to go from this fun thing that we're doing with this robot to the career that is amazing that I could have in the future. It's really hard.
Paul Marden: Talking of kids, I'm a trustee at Kids in Museum and we talk a lot about getting the voice of young people who visit attractions and young people, they're worthy, they're in their career and incorporating that into the decision making, strategic direction of museums and science centres. I think it's definitely really important when we talk about climate emergency to get that younger voice in so that trustees don't all look like me. Let's talk a little bit about the youth platform and how you incorporate the youth voice into what you guys do. Who wants to take that one first? I can spot who cracks first.
Bryan Snelling: Okay. I'm not very good at this, am I? You are very good. No, but I'm actually quite proud of what we do at Aberdeen. We about a year and a bit ago introduced a STEM youth ball and we're very pleased with that. We actually work with a local festival so it's ourselves and Aberdeen Tech Fest that jointly I say support, but actually they support us. The youth board, it's made up of secondary school kids, young people and last year was a pilot year and it went very well. We're now looking at developing it further. But what they do is they look at what they want to do, they work out what they want to do within a board situation.
Bryan Snelling: They've got all the usual bits, chair and the secretary, but they work out that they want to deliver this program and then they'll go away, work together on the delivery of that program. They'll also work out the marketing side of things. They'll also do all of that. But I also, and my counterpart with TechFest also bring our ideas and say what do you think about this? And they give us a very.
Paul Marden: Take some of them and rubbish a few I guess.
Bryan Snelling: That's what it's for.
Paul Marden: Exactly.
Bryan Snelling: I mean, let's get out of the way in a safe space before we then go ahead and spend money on this thing.
Paul Marden: The most brutal focus could possibly bring together.
Bryan Snelling: But we're very pleased with that. The other thing that we're currently looking at doing is working with local university, Robert Goldman University, especially the architecture school, to redevelop our outer area, the garden. It was the only area that wasn't developed when we did inside. And we undertook a number of brainstorming sessions with the youngsters and I mean your 5 to 12 year olds to get their input. And we did that a number of ways, remember drawing or talking or writing, whatever. And that was really interesting. We'd obviously, as the adults had done a similar thing but what they brought was a completely different point of view and it's wonderful.
Paul Marden: Excellent. Victoria, you can't not look at teacher. It's only going to encourage me to.
Victoria Denoon: No, I think you know, to what Bryan was saying there. We haven't started yet but we're looking at this idea of creating a Y suite, you know, which is our youth suite, which would be young people that will come in and kind of meet once a quarter to help us with some of those decisions. Bryan was talking about Inspiring Science Fund. We also did a huge renovation at W5 as a result of that and that involved a lot of consultation with young people, with teachers, et cetera. And we do a lot of youth led programs but we're looking at really how do we engage that in this more strategic direction going forward.
Paul Marden: I think it's hugely valuable, isn't it? When you take it from a consultation point to something that is actually helping to drive the strategy of the organisation. It's transformational. Sharoon, do you have any thoughts about that?
Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, I mean I sort of see it from a bird's eye view really, you know. But you know we have our Youth Voice Award because last year our volunteers award was won by. Part of our volunteers award was won by Winchester young group of environmental activists that were really doing great things down at Winchester Science Centre and influencing one seekers charity. And anyone who was at dinner last night, you might have seen the video from Zed King who has done so much work supporting Centre for Life and making massive changes there and not just there, like actually across the network. We are. So we've got this Youth Voice award as one of the only awards that we give because it is so important. We are all about. Not all about, but we are a lot about young people.
Shaaron Leverment: So they need to have voice but it's very difficult to be sure how to do that and to make sure that we're not putting too much pressure. I mean here at this conference you can. There we've got some young people coming in showing their bio robots. We've got. Obviously we had the Esports award last night and our next keynote we've got two younger panel members to do a discussion about eco anxiety and how that feels for them to influence the way in which we think about our climate engagement from the voices of people who are experiencing it and experiencing this massive grief and anxiety about their own futures. So yeah, there's a lot of work going on obviously over in Armagh as well, you know, especially with autistic families and you know, I think it's.
Shaaron Leverment: Yeah, it's a growing area and we're putting a lot of effort into encouraging like hearing these stories and different things and you know, I know we the curated. Well, with your authority sharing, I might just throw that over to you. I mean I think that's a great piece of work.
Chris Dunford: Yeah. On the climate side especially. One thing we've done in the past is work with Bristol City Council, Youth Council, I think I might say most councils will have something like this because they then feed into the UK lean Parliament. I think that's really useful for two reasons. Firstly, because it gives them a space when you talk about climate issues. But secondly, it's helping them to understand the process of democracy, which young people's possibly more important now than ever. I think that's really key because I think what often happens, especially at events like cop, is that inside the room you've got the politicians and decision makers who are struggling with this really difficult challenge of how do we decarbonise and knowing there isn't an easy thing to fix it.
Chris Dunford: It's going to be a lot of trailblazers, compromise, a lot of hard work outside where you've got the young people kind of screaming desperately do something, finally find the solution and then have these two different worlds. So I think if you could bring those together to bring the youth Voice into those conversations. What are the trade offs? What are the decisions? Because the consequence of decisions they inherit not us. But also it's useful for young people because it helps them understand that there isn't an easy solution and yes, there's going on strike and it's making the message clear, but there's getting into discussion of what are the trade offs, what are the compromises, and that's how a democracy works. I think that's really useful.
Chris Dunford: But the other thing I'd say is if you're going to engage with young people on this and also be prepared for the fact that they're clear, they know what they want and they want the allies to take action. So if you say to them, great, there's time to change that, you're creating a youth board so you can learn about climate change, they'll say, yes, but what are you doing to reduce your carbon emissions? So we're doing this group and we're going to get your views on that. Thank you, that's fine. What are you doing to reduce your carbon emissions? So if you're going to enter into this space, they know what they want from us. They want to take action to create deep, radical and rapid decarbonisation.
Chris Dunford: So be prepared for that question because they will ask it and it's the right to ask it. We need to do stuff as well as having board. At the same time, you've got to be taking the action to show that you're copying the agency, what they want.
Shaaron Leverment: Have you seen the recent DCMS call as well? I mean, it's obviously strategically important at government as well. So all funders and DCMS in particular are making an election in this. So, yeah, leading the way.
Paul Marden: A beautiful segue to my next question, which is what, Chris, this one's for you really is what are ASDC members doing ahead of national targets to reach net zero?
Chris Dunford: Yeah. So it's probably worth just causing phone. So, in terms of the national target, for anyone who isn't aware, net zero for the UK is 2050. And net zero essentially means that your carbon emissions are down to zero or they're not zero, then you're offsetting what emissions you are creating. So the balance of the atmosphere is 2 0. And it's really hard. And the reason it's really hard, whether you're a government or an organisation, is you're following the greenhouse gas protocol, which means it's across all three scopes, which essentially means it's the stuff you expect.
Chris Dunford: So it's the energy from the grid, it's your fuel and vehicles, it's burning gas in your home or places where, but it's also emissions from all the stuff that you buy and the investments from your bank and your pensions and it's the emissions from your business who travel to visit you. It's huge. It's very complex. So it's difficult. That's essentially what it means, the claim in terms of what sciences are doing. So it's a mixed back. There's plenty of science centers who still don't have a specific claim decarbonisation target, whether that be net zero or 2050 or sooner. So that's one issue I think we need to. Those who have done that piece of work have to work those who haven't to support them, enable them and encourage them to create a space where they can do.
Chris Dunford: Because your Internet provider probably has a Net Zero pledge on their website, your supermarket certainly does. Your local council will, your university. So with science centres, it might seem strange that we're actually behind those players rather than leaving it. And of those that do have targets, there's probably about seven science centres in the network. This is student, big museum. So in terms of. In terms of the main science centres and then Tampa Gardens and museums, if you include them, there's probably about 11 organisations who have a kind of a decarbonisation net zero net neutral aimed before 2015. They're mostly around 2030. And again, that's really hard. And those organisations are now figuring out what that means and just how difficult that is.
Chris Dunford: There is also even project who have boldly gone for a net positive to say they'll actually be removing more carbon than releasing by 2030. But it's really hard. And the reason it's hard for science centres is we're not Marks and Spencers. We can't just hire a stable team overnight and throw money at this problem. So we're renting some organisations who are tight on time and money who now to take on this huge challenge. That doesn't excuse us from the challenge. So there's no easy solution on the fact that we have to put resource into this. And I think that's why there aren't more Net Zero aims on websites for the centres at the moment. But I think we can get there. We need to recognise it's hard.
Chris Dunford: And finally, if you are doing lots of engagement, as I said with schools, then again you need to be backing this up with some kind of Net zero. So it's a mixed bag of the network. There's probably about 10 or so that have specific net zero aims and they're mostly around 2030, 2040. But my prediction is in the coming years, those organisations are going to make some really hard choices and actually say how they're going to do that, because we know from experience it's really difficult. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be doing it. It means you have to push even harder than you were before.
Paul Marden: Thank you.
Bryan Snelling: Can I add something?
Paul Marden: Of course.
Bryan Snelling: I think decarbonisation is an important message, full stop, especially in Aberdeen, for obvious reasons. I hope we feel that we have an important duty almost to the visitors to the northeast of Scotland and beyond. Because I think how can we talk the talk about decarbonisation if we don't walk the walk? So there's an internal thing, which notwithstanding how difficult it is, we're just starting down that route. We've had an energy audit done of ourselves. We're now in the process of working out what that roadmap is, or maybe it should be a cycle path road towards net zero, but we need to work that out. But on the other side, we're also tasked with telling people, this is what you should be doing. This is the energy transition.
Bryan Snelling: This is how you renewable energy in the future. So how can you do both? How can you do one without the other one? I mean, and I think we just need to be aware of that. And I think as the future goes back to the very first question about what's happening in the future, that's all big part of what we need to be looking at.
Paul Marden: Conference is all about shaping future science together. What's your take home message from the different talks that you've been to, or possibly because we've not finished the conference yet that you're looking forward to. What's the standout moment? I know. So I would say for me, the standout moment was last night's awards. I mean, if you weren't overtaken by Zed's video, if you weren't moved by Hamish talking about. And for me, what they both demonstrated is that volunteering and engagement is a conversation. It's a two way street, isn't it? Because they weren't just there as a resource doing things, they were getting something from the relationship and giving back to the sense, etc. At the same time. For me, that bit was the most powerful.
Shaaron Leverment: Yeah. And I think actually, you know, there's a lot of emotion there, you know, and it's incredible to someone stand up and say science and you saved my life.
Paul Marden: Yes.
Shaaron Leverment: You know, I think it was just incredible and very brave. And I think that kind of bringing that emotion into science, it's really important and remembering the people, even people. I think there's been quite a few messages about, you know, the safe spaces that we provide and that interaction with people and that genuine understanding. I think I'm really excited about. We're no longer sort of let science speak for itself and we're not going.
Shaaron Leverment: You know, I think people are socially connecting and using emotion a lot more because first we feel right, first we feel and that is what our inclusive outcomes are all about. That it's what makes a difference for someone who is disengaged and doesn't feel that science and technology could be for them to feeling that maybe there's a place they need to feel they belong. So I'm really excited about that aspect of it. I also agree with everything that the elders are about.
Bryan Snelling: Really.
Shaaron Leverment: Yeah.
Chris Dunford: I think several things yesterday for me resonated with the thing which Stephen Breslin said at the very start, which is that we come to these conferences anxious and slightly overwhelmed by the challenges we're facing and leaves feeling energized and positive with at least some of the solutions. And I think that's. That's a similar pattern that I experienced with these conferences. And I think through that lens I've been listening to all the challenges yesterday. And it's just our job is hard and potentially getting harder and as it gets harder, it's more important to society than ever. And I think that's the main thing I'm taking away.
Chris Dunford: And I don't just mean things like the inclusion work and the decarbonisation work which we've spoken about during this session, but even things like one of the sessions that really stuck me yesterday was where the Science museum were talking in the lightning talks about their new AI exhibition and the fact that when all the many centers open they could have exhibits that explained Google of motion by pendulums and spinning things. A physical thing. And now we're having to have conversations about AI where there is no physical thing you can hold in your hands.
Chris Dunford: There's a historical artefact, it's a circuit board doesn't tell you anything about what circuit board really does in terms of how it impacts society and how are we going to do science communication, science engagement around these challenging issues like AI which are then mounted up with all these kind of social problems with them, which again, the laws of motion that we come with. So, so I suppose I'm going away with that is the fact that our creativity is going to be tested more than before and our ingenuity and our ability to collaborate beyond our initial partners. So, yeah, for me, weirdly, it's about the science communication side and things like AI are going to make that really challenging. And how are we going to do that? Any of the answers other than the fact that we know we're not doing it alone, we're doing it as a network. And that's obviously big talk.
Victoria Denoon: Yeah, I think it's the same thing. That remark by Stephen really is something that stuck with me because I did come here as well, thinking about the challenges we're facing, not just as a Science and Discovery centre, but also politically at the moment and just how pessimistic you can be about things. And really being in this conference with all of these amazing people makes you feel more optimistic about things and I think that's just really powerful and it carries you through. So for me, that's. And I think some of the conversations that have been happening here, I feel like since last year we've made a huge jump in terms of where the impact of our network is going with other people. And, you know, Tom's talk this morning really brought that home a little bit as well. So I'm feeling very optimistic.
Paul Marden: Thank you. We always end our interviews with a book recommendation, which can be personal or professional. So, Victoria, do you want to share yours with everyone?
Victoria Denoon: Well, I think when were talking about this, it was like, what's your favourite book? And for me, my favourite book is actually Pride and Prejudice. It's a book I would read over and could read over and over again. Jane Austen's musings.
Paul Marden: Excellent. Bryan.
Bryan Snelling: You know, this is the most difficult question that you're going to be putting to us. I've read, you know, fiction most of my life. I mean, you can't. I've always got a book, always looking at a book. So I don't actually have favourites. Why is it favourites? What I can say is my most recent book that I've read was the Thursday we’re at the Club by Rich Lawson, which is quite nice. The most profound one was actually 1984. I read that when I was about 18 and I thought, wow. And that was really quite interesting. Followed swiftly by Animal Farm, of course.
Paul Marden: So that's three recommendations bankrupt me over. Chris.
Chris Dunford: So I've gone for War of the Worlds by H.G. Wells. I'm a big fan of, like, old sci fi books. It's different to modern sci fi. Sci fi books like Jules Byrne and H.G. Wells will just ramble on pages about scientific theories at the time. Things they read in nature. So it's genuinely kind of science fiction. But War of the Royals because it's just. It scares me every time I read it. Like it still scares me. Absolutely. And I quite enjoy that. And I don't know why. And there's something about the complete, you know, civilisation. Actually some shouldn't put on this thread too hard, but there's something fascinating about that. Kind of, as he describes it, the liquefaction of society is everything kind of falls apart and every time I pick it up, I'm terrified and I pick it up again, I'm still terrible.
Paul Marden: Shaaron, lastly, yours.
Shaaron Leverment: I had forgotten this is a question.
Paul Marden: Chris had three books, so you can choose.
Shaaron Leverment: I'll go for in my. In my head I go for I just off the cup. The Martian is great. When it's got a little bit tiresome with the whole potatoes, improve it. But it is a brilliant. Yeah, it's great.
Paul Marden: We are done. If you enjoyed today's episode, please like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Thank you to my guests Victoria, Bryan, Chris and Shaaron, and my amazing ASDC Live studio audience.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE!
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Sustainability and Performance: How Greener Websites Drive Better Results
14 nov· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Oz Austwick and Sinead Kimberley

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Competition ends on 28th November 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
Download The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - https://rubbercheese.com/survey/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sineadwaldron/
Sinead Kimberley is the Senior Client Success Manager of Rubber Cheese and has a background in digital marketing, engagement software and all things client satisfaction. She guides clients through the various stages of their project, ensuring they have the information they need when they need it, as well as being the link between our developers and clients.
https://rubbercheese.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/thatmarketingbloke/
Oz Austwick is the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, he has a somewhat varied job history having worked as a Blacksmith, a Nurse, a Videographer, and Henry VIII’s personal man at arms. Outside of work he’s a YouTuber, a martial artist, and a musician, and is usually found wandering round a ruined castle with his kids.
Transcription:
Oz Austwick: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Oz Ostwick. In this episode, Sinead and I are going to talk a lot about the third Annual Rubber Cheese website Visitor Attraction survey. So, firstly, I just want to say, hi, Sinead.
Sinead Kimberley: Hello.
Oz Austwick: Sinead's been struggling a bit with a cold and I dragged her onto the podcast anyway, so I should apologise to her, but she'll be great.
Sinead Kimberley: She always is, always fun to join.
Oz Austwick: I'm gonna start by asking you a couple of questions. We're not gonna do the icebreaker thing that we do with guests, but when Paul and I host an episode, we like to talk a little bit about where we've been, what attractions we've been to. So how about you? Where have you been recently?
Sinead Kimberley: I've been to Stockholm, in Sweden, actually. That is not an attraction in itself, although it's beautiful there. But we did try to go to a few attractions, so we tried to go to the Paradox Illusion Museum. We very excitedly got to the front, asked for two tickets and they said they're completely fully booked for the entire day, and we couldn't get in, which was surprising. I kind of didn't really factor in that it would be a numbered visit thing. I thought, “just, it's open, come and have a wonder.” But I guess the structure of it is you have to have so many people in a room to be able to enjoy the paradox of it. So it made sense in the end.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, I guess. It's interesting, isn't it, that wasn't clear?
Sinead Kimberley: Our research was essentially looking. We knew we wanted to go there.
Oz Austwick: Yeah.
Sinead Kimberley: What's the address? And can Google get me there? That was my research.
Oz Austwick: Okay, so really can't really blame them for that, then.
Sinead Kimberley: No, we cannot blame them. But we had a similar thing as well where were also trying to go to an escape room because were there to visit friends. So we didn't want to go to all the museums we've kind of already seen, although they have some incredible ones there, the Vassa being one of them. Very similar, I think, to Mary Rose Trust. They've got a massive ship that sunk pretty soon after coming out of the bay and the King wasn't very happy about it, but we thought, we'll go and just try and escape room, just to kill a couple of hours. And I looked for every escape room I could find in Stockholm that we could physically get to. And then once you go into one of those sites, you then pick the Room, then the day, then the time.
Sinead Kimberley: And you have to go room to room in each of these websites to see if they've got any availability on the day you want and time you want. And I really wished. And maybe this is a thing that exists that I just don't know about, but I wish there was one place I could go and just say, I want to go to an escape room in Stockholm on this day, roughly this time. What is available? Because I gave up after about half an hour of searching through every single one. Different rooms, different places, it was impossible. So we didn't go in the end.
Oz Austwick: That's quite interesting because I suspect that trying to book for half an hour is probably quite a lot. I guess most people probably wouldn't last that long. But not being able to search for something by availability seems a bit odd that you have to say, I want this specific room. And then you have to go into it and say, “Oh no, that's not available.” And then you have to go and find another one and go into. Yeah, it would be really nice to be able to look at something like that and just say what's actually available.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. And I feel like I'm not that big on the. I don't have that many brainwaves, so I imagine someone's already done this. If anyone knows and can point me to it.
Oz Austwick: Certainly interesting. And maybe there's a lesson there for people who are listening that are working in attractions that can. If somebody wants to come, can they search by when it's available or do you have to pick a day and look to see if there are any times free? Maybe that's something we'll talk about because we're going to talk about our report and I think maybe that booking process is something that might crop up again. So did you actually make it anywhere at all or did you just give up and not visit anywhere?
Sinead Kimberley: We went to a chess bar in the end, so they had a very swanky, very kind of trendy feeling Chess bar. And apparently some very famous chess player was going to go there and have a tournament against somebody from YouTube. I'm not in with all the YouTube stuff, so I don't know who it was, but my husband and friend played chess for about three hours and me and another friend drank wine instead of any visitor attraction.
Oz Austwick: Sounds like a pretty ideal attraction to me. It's interesting, is it? Because there are definitely quite a lot of Scandinavian, maybe Swedish chess players. And where's Magnus Carlsen from? Is he Swedish? I know he's Scandinavian. But when he's. He's the best, he's the best player out there at the moment. But I know there are a number of quite famous YouTubers. Anna Kramlin is.
Sinead Kimberley: Yes, that was the one.
Oz Austwick: Was it? Okay. Oh, she's. She's brilliant.
Sinead Kimberley: I think she was going to be there.
Oz Austwick: She's got an amazing YouTube channel where she just travels around and plays people at chess. She goes to America and plays chess hustlers in the park and she's an international master, I think. But her parents are both grandmasters at chess and every now and again her mum just comes along and she's this lovely softly spoken lady who just sits down and utterly destroys people at chess. Brilliant watching. So, yeah, I very much doubt Anna Cramling is watching this or listening to this podcast, but if she is, good for you, Anna. Keep it up. Yeah. So where have I been? It's a bit of a cop out because this is something we do quite often, but we live a few minutes drive from Petworth, so we quite often go and park up and go for a walk around the park.
Oz Austwick: And we say park, it's thousands and thousands of acres and it's absolutely lovely. It's a bit like stepping into Pride and Prejudice and going for a walk around and seeing the herds of deer just grazing in the landscape. And it's a Capability Brown thing. And you see the house on the hill overlooking, it's absolutely beautiful. We go there a lot. The kids love running around and my teenage daughter, it's a bit special to her because she's got a very serious boyfriend at the moment. They've been together for almost a year and that was where they went for their first date. They went for a walk around the grounds at Petworth and it was absolutely delightful. All very Jane Austen.
Sinead Kimberley: That's a lovely first date.
Oz Austwick: Well, this isn't it, you know, I mean, at that point I'm going, “Well, yeah, he's okay, he can stay, we like him”. And he came up and introduced himself and shook my hand and I'm just like, wow, okay. Is this what dating's like now? Because it's. I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that back in my day. But yeah, it's a lovely place. Can't recommend it enough. You need to either be a member of the National Trust or pay for your parking, but there's usually a coffee van in the car park so you can have a nice coffee and walk around a lovely estate. So it's pretty much perfect for me. We should probably talk about the elephant in the room, or rather the elephant that isn't in the room. And I'm sure I'll get in trouble for calling Paul an elephant.
Oz Austwick: But he's not here today. He's off at the Historic Building Parks and Gardens event, which is an absolutely new one for me. I've not even heard of it before. So we hope you're having a lovely time, Paul, and thanks for letting us loose with the podcast. So what else is going on in the world of visitor attractions at the moment?
Sinead Kimberley: ASDC, is it coming up?
Oz Austwick: ASDC, yes, the Association of Science and Discovery Centres have their big annual event soon and there's something really special happening at it this year, which is we're going to record an episode of Skip the Queue live on stage. We're not going to broadcast it live because there's a distinct possibility we'll mess it up and we'll have to do bits again. But we are going to record it and it's going to be really interesting. And that one's going to be hosted by Paul, which is probably why he's letting us loose without him. And, yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I think it's going to be quite interesting to get out and about because I've been out to record on site and nobody else has managed it yet. So this will be Paul's first on site recording.
Sinead Kimberley: That'd be very cool and hopefully I'll be able to join you for the event at least, as the audience.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, I certainly hope. Yeah, that would be great. So if you're listening to this and you've got a venue and you'd like us to be there, please do let us know. We'd love to come and see you. I had an amazing time recording at Trentham Monkey Forest, so if you've got monkeys, then let me know. I'd love to come and meet your monkeys too. But it's probably fair to say that the. The annual survey and the report has taken up a lot of our time recently and we're actually able to talk about it now because it's been released. We know that some of you came along to our launch webinar, but a lot of you didn't. So we'd like to talk about some of the really interesting things that are in the survey.
Oz Austwick: I guess it's probably reasonable to start off by talking a little bit about how it's different this year compared with previous years. And there are a few things we've done differently. There are a few subjects that we've brought into the survey to ask people about that weren't in there before. So the use of AI and sustainability. I know we're going to talk a little bit more about sustainability later. That's something that Sinead's quite focused on. But one of the major things is that we've introduced some multi site operators into the database of attractions that we use to produce the report and I think that's probably changed the way the report looks a little bit, wouldn't you agree?
Sinead Kimberley: Definitely. I think it's compared to the reports before there are sections of it that maybe look a bit more complex because you've got different tabs you can move between and you can see the data both with all of the data we have. So with the multi sites and without. So if you are maybe a smaller attraction the without might be more interesting for you to have a look and benchmark yourself against. But I think it's really interesting to see how very different the results are. If you look at our normal kind of attractions that we get survey results from compared to when you look at the multi sites. In nearly every single one, the biggest tech within whichever category is usually completely different between the two different kind of data sets, which I thought was really interesting. There's very little crossover really.
Oz Austwick: It really isn't it? And the question you need to start thinking about at that point is the tech different because multi sites need different tech or is it different because multi sites actually have the financial ability to be able to say this the absolute best. So that's the one we're going to use. And I don't think we can say for sure one way or another at that point. We can say that the biggest, most successful venues tend to use these things but we're not really in a position where we're able to say and this is why. So I think that's quite interesting. I think there were a lot of discussions when were trying to produce the report about how we use this data because there are definitely different types of multisites out there.
Oz Austwick: There are those relatively small local groups where you get maybe two or three local museums that all used to be run by the same council and now are run by a charity. But then you've got some of the multi sites that have some of the biggest and most famous venues in the country that all have their own websites but the decisions are clearly made at a group level and then you've got the massive multi site operators with hundreds and hundreds of venues where they're all done through the same site, the same website. And the question is, then, is that, say, 600 venues or is that one website? And that makes it a really difficult thing because if we look at it and say it's 600 or so venues, then that's 600 venues, all using the same technology.
Oz Austwick: But if it's one website, that's only one website using that technology, and that hugely changes the way that it's reported. So I think you're absolutely right to look at it, look at both and see how it applies to you as an attraction. And if you're unsure, drop us a line, talk to Sinead, talk to me, talk to Paul. We've got a huge amount of information and we've put what we think is the most important things out there in the report. But there's a lot more we can talk to you about and we'd love to, because, you know, we're kind of sick of talking to each other about it, wouldn't you say?
Sinead Kimberley: Not just yet. Not sick of you just yet, but I would say when it comes to, as well, coming to talk to us, I think one of the areas that, I mean, I can be useful in and that I'd love to have conversations with my clients in the ones I'm not already talking to about it, is sustainability. And this is one where Oz is probably sick of hearing me talk about constantly. But I think the thing that I find most interesting, if you look at sustainability on its own, you can maybe see it as something we should be doing, but is very hard and, like, how do you do it? Well. But the report looks into how it links really well with performance as well.
Sinead Kimberley: A lot of what makes something sustainable also makes it highly performing load faster, and that ultimately gives you a better user experience on the website. So for those who are maybe kind of grappling with how do we make something sustainable in an industry that can find this very difficult because of the nature of what you're doing? Looking at it more from that performance perspective, I think helps maybe give it a little bit momentum, a bit more enthusiasm towards doing something that will have material benefits for you later on, as well as making you a bit more kind of conscious and environmental in the website. So I thought putting those two things together was really interesting in the report.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point, isn't it? It's not just about ticking a box for sustainability. ”Oh, look at us. Isn't our website brilliant?” And it feels a bit like just patting yourself on the back for the sake of it. Almost everything you do to make your website more sustainable is making you more successful and your site more efficient and hopefully making you more money as well. So I think that's definitely something to bear in mind.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah. And I think the activities that you can do to make it more sustainable and therefore more highly performing and a better user experience, they're reasonably simple. So we have a lot of our customers at the moment are going through that process with us of our team, reviewing the site, checking where can we make those quick wins to boost you up the kind of score. And so in the report, we talk about the average attraction being at F, which is the worst score along the whole score grade, that kind of data shows us. And it doesn't take a whole heap of stuff to get you even just above that average line. But mostly kind of C, B, A, they are all achievable to get to those kind of grades with things that you would.
Sinead Kimberley: If you went to look at your site after we have made changes to make it more sustainable, you'll notice it loads a little quicker, hopefully, but you won't really notice anything else that's changed. So a lot of it is the smart little tech things you can do in the background that, you know, we didn't know were possible, maybe when the sites were built originally or, you know, we've just not heard about, we're focusing on something else perhaps. So I think that was. I hope people can see how easy it can be to just get both of those quick wins, the sustainability and the performance, without changing too much. You know, the design team are not going to be unhappy after we've kind of had a go with that.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, and I think it's, it's probably worth saying that one of the reasons that I think sustainability has been a conversation that people have backed away from having is that it feels like it's going to be really complicated. And the reason it feels like it's really complicated is because it's quite technical. But if you're talking to someone like you and the team of developers that you work with, then this is really simple stuff for them. Being able to look at a list of things that are causing your site to not rank very well, sustainability wise. They can say, “Oh, well, we can do those three really quickly. That's only half a day's work to get that fixed.” And that can have a huge tangible difference to the site, definitely.
Oz Austwick: Okay, so moving on from sustainability to very much a related subject is the booking process. We've talked a bit about trying to make the site more efficient and make it load faster and therefore make it more sustainable. That does feel very much like it's connected to the booking process, because one of the things that seems fairly clear, looking at the report, is that people are still expecting their visitors to go through a lot of steps and that hasn't really changed year on year. We've said before that if you reduce the steps in your booking process, it will make you more money. And we can see that really clearly from the reports we've done in the past. And yet the average is still really high.
Oz Austwick: It's seven steps to be able to book a ticket and that feels like we're making people do a lot.
Sinead Kimberley: I think if you look at other industries as well, they have really run down that avenue of reducing the steps. If you look at Amazon, it's scarily easy to go, just “Buy now”. Admittedly, they've taken details earlier on in the process that are slightly different, but any new site that I go on to where I'm trying to buy something or I'm trying to kind of plan something, even if I can do everything on my phone and even when it comes to, say, Apple Pay, if I can just do two clicks and my payments done, I don't need to put in, you know, manually enter my details and things like that. I feel more happy after that experience. I don't feel like I've had to go and find my purse and get my card.
Sinead Kimberley: I haven't had to go and remember whatever detail it is, or checked, you know, my husband's details, if he's coming along with me or anything. And the easier you can make it, I think the better. I know we've got a few colleagues who have children and Steve in particular will tell me how on a Thursday evening, he sat on the sofa, maybe after putting the kids to bed. After dinner, you're a bit tired, you've had a full day of work, you want to just go, “Oh, I need to do something on the weekend”. You pick up your phone and find where you want to go, quickly book it, get back to the TV or whatever other relaxing activity you were doing. And the quicker you can do that, the more it takes stress out of what is potentially a stressful thing as well.
Sinead Kimberley: Not even thinking about when it comes to obviously, the more sales that you get because you're then somewhere they think of as easy to go to, easy to book.
Oz Austwick: Yeah.
Sinead Kimberley: So, yeah, I think the survey highlighted that really, really well.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely, yeah. I couldn't agree more. And I love this idea of Apple Pay or Google Pay being more used because A, that allows you, as an attraction, to get that data without having to specifically ask for it. But also as a visitor, the amount of times I've got my phone out and I've literally, I've been out and about, I've been doing something, maybe I've taken one of the kids to a swimming lesson or, you know, I'm sitting at the back of a concert waiting for my daughter to come on and do her bit and I think, “Oh, I'll just book that thing.” And it says, “Oh, you've got to put your car details in.”
Oz Austwick: I've lost count of the amount of times I've been stood in a car park with my phone balanced on the back of the car trying to find a credit card so I can. I don't want to do that.
Sinead Kimberley: How many times have you put the phone down? You've not even carried on that booking. Because I'll do it later, if later comes.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, I mean, if later comes, definitely. Sometimes, without a doubt, I would much rather be able to just say Google Pay and give it my fingerprint and let it do it for me. And I think the question we need to be asking ourselves as an industry as a whole is why are we asking for this information? And there's a really interesting thing in the survey which I think highlights that we're asking for information from people that A, we don't need. And you and I, we both know this. We talk to people who book things and it annoys them all the time. And people are asking for information so they can market to us and get us to come back. They can upsell, they can sell more things to us.
Oz Austwick: But we've got some really clear data looking at where traffic to your website comes from. And the absolute lowest source of traffic to a website to a visitor attraction website comes from email marketing. So we're literally putting people off buying tickets to a venue to get information from them so that we can market to them and get them to come to the venue again. And the numbers just don't hold up.
Sinead Kimberley: Don't make sense, no. For the bigger venues, at least hundreds of thousands of pounds, you could get more in revenue if you were to remove some steps. And yet we hold on to those steps for potentially email marketing, which is not where you're getting your hundreds of thousands of pounds back from. In the end, it doesn't add up, but I think it maybe goes into what we spoke about a while ago, where you do what you've always done, you don't think about the why. Why are you asking for the information? Why are we doing this? Why? You know, is email marketing still the big thing that we are trying to do all the time?
Oz Austwick: Yes. Yeah. There's a huge amount of perceived wisdom within the industry. And even now, going to events and listening to people talk about how you should market your venue, and it's all really arbitrary. It's like, this is clearly what you should do, this is how you should do it. And there's no justification for that. There's no reason behind it. There's no proof that if you do it this way, this is what will happen. And I think that's one of the things that the survey now, in year three, is becoming more and more able to show you that these things are changing. We've got actual trends, we've got figures, we've got data that is indisputable, and we can see how that data is changing over time.
Oz Austwick: So we can look at the fact that in year one, when we knew how many people have tested their site for mobile optimisation. That doesn't tell us an awful lot. It just tells us that some sites have and some sites haven't. But now we've got three years worth of data, we can see that this is still a really important thing and it's getting more important every year. And so we know for a fact that if you aren't testing your site for mobile usage, then you're probably suffering, I think.
Sinead Kimberley: Was it 80% of visits to the site are on mobile?
Oz Austwick: Yeah.
Sinead Kimberley: So if you've never tested that.
Oz Austwick: But yeah, it's something ridiculous, like less than 20% of sites have actually bothered to test the mobile version of their site to see if it works the way they think it works. And that's an easy win for you. Get a small group of people together, get it tested, run them through the process and find out if it's. If it's good or not, and look at the steps. And I think it's probably worth mentioning that while we're talking about taking steps out of your booking process, what we're not looking at doing is putting all of those complex decisions into a fewer number of steps. So we don't go from having seven steps to book a ticket to three steps to book a ticket, but those three steps are now infinitely more complex.
Oz Austwick: We're actually saying, look at the questions you're asking and say, do you actually need to ask Them? Yeah, like you said, you know, if I want a toaster, I can buy a toaster from Amazon in maybe two clicks and if I buy it from someone else that accepts Google Pay, maybe it's three clicks. But I'd really like to be able to take my kids out for the day without having to go through seven or eight different clicks and then fill in different ages for all of the kids and, you know, putting everybody's names and I just, I'm not interested. I'd much rather.
Sinead Kimberley: If they welcome me at the door by saying, hello, Sinead, it's nice to see you. Is this Adam who you mentioned? Carry on. But I don't think that's in many attractions.
Oz Austwick: No. And I would much rather get an email with my tickets in it with a little link in the email saying, we'd love to know a little bit more about you. If you fill in this form, we'll give you a free coffee.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: And then I'm like, oh, great. Yeah, okay. And I've already got my tickets. It's not going to put me off. But I think that does link beautifully into the subject of discounts because that's something we asked about and we featured in the report and I think it's quite a surprising result, wouldn't you say?
Sinead Kimberley: Definitely.
Oz Austwick: We know for certain that discounts make more sales.
Sinead Kimberley: By quite a substantial margin. It's kind of double the number of sales if you have discounts versus if you don't.
Oz Austwick: And I know there are a lot of people out there, people running attractions, people who are involved in the industry, who feel really passionately that you shouldn't offer discounts, that it devalues what you're offering. And yet the numbers don't necessarily agree with that.
Sinead Kimberley: No. And I think I can understand having a concern that when we're saying how the data from our survey revealed that. I think it was maybe might have to correct me on these later, But I think 2.9 thousand sales via discounts versus 1.2000 sales or something. So it's quite a substantial difference if you are offering a discount versus not. And then my worry if I kind of take myself out of my role is if the price per ticket is a lot lower, what's my ultimate kind of revenue at the end of that? Have I sacrificed revenue? Am I taking in ultimately less because of the discount? But I don't think anyone is really proposing, you know, 50% discounts on a ticket.
Sinead Kimberley: So really from that data, the revenue would be increased by discounting, which feels like opposite things to hold in your brain at the same time, but it is enticing people. I think sales work in every other industry, we know they work. We love sales. You see it and there is a bit in your brain that just reacts to it. Even if you're not interested, you might notice it more. And so I think to ignore it entirely without checking it or testing just feels like maybe not thoroughly investigating it enough based on the data we've seen, at least.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely. And the data is really clear, just like you said, that the number of sales that are made is just so much higher when you're offering discounts. But what we're not able to show in the survey is what sort of discount people are offering, what level of discount they're offering. And we know really very clearly that every attraction is different and the way your audience reacts is different and the way you interact with them is different. So we're not saying go and knock 50% off your ticket, we're saying have a think about discounts and look at what you can offer and test it and see if it works for you. Because it's clearly working really well for some people. Hugely well.
Sinead Kimberley: And I think on that kind of knowing your audience and seeing how you think they will actually react to this. I think if I think of any place where I've been and if I felt like I got a good deal, I don't have to think I know, stole my ticket. But if I feel like I got a good deal and I then also have a lovely experience there, I have a lot more reason to go and try and recommend that to a friend or go back even again, because I feel like I got treated well essentially in a considered way of maybe what I would find beneficial.
Sinead Kimberley: And if that starts with my interest being piqued by a discount and then it goes on to me actually now being part of that audience that maybe I wouldn't have been otherwise, that also has a knock on gain rather than if I saw a price that I saw no discount to, no benefit to, then I wouldn't maybe go in the door in the first place. So you don't just miss that first discounted sale, you might miss the next full price sale of a ticket. Maybe. So there's so much to think about, depending on the audience that you're looking at.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely. And I guess I kind of fall into the group where if I'm going to go somewhere, I'm probably going to go there. If you offer a discount or not, I'm probably still going to go. Getting my family to a venue is quite a big job. You know, logistically it's quite tricky. There are a lot of us and we go out a lot, so going somewhere, we tend to travel a little way to get to somewhere a bit special. And we'll have made the decision before I go to book the tickets, but if I can book the tickets and I say, “Hey, I've saved 20 quid doing this”, then in my head what I'm actually thinking is I can spend 20 quid when I get there.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: Maybe we don't have to buy a picnic from a supermarket on the way and save money that way. Maybe we can eat on site.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: So I don't know for sure, but I strongly suspect that my overall kind of purchase value is more when somebody offers me a discount up front.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: But again, you know, test it. Your mileage may vary.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: So I guess, I mean, we've talked about this for quite a long time now and I think that we probably shouldn't go on too much but to stress, you know, if I can give you anything to take away from this discussion. It's a, that you really need to get hold of this data and look at it and see how it applies to you and test it, you know, look at what people who are making success out of their venue are doing and see if you can do the same thing.
Oz Austwick: But also come and talk to us. We'd love to talk to you about this stuff. There's so much data and there's so many ways you can look at it and we're really able to break it down in a really granular way to say, “Oh, this is what animal based attractions are doing. This is what aquariums or this is what historic homes are doing, this is what theme parks are doing, this is what museums are doing.” We can do all of that. We can't put all of that data out there.
Sinead Kimberley: No, it'd be very long.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. I mean, it would be ridiculous. And I strongly suspect that our designer would leave when, in fairness, I might too, if we had to make a report that was five times as long as the one that we've done. But, you know, if you're a client of ours and you want to talk about how you can do better, you know, hit up Sinead, drop her an email. If you, if you're not a client and you want to talk, then talk to Sinead, talk to me, talk to Paul. We'd really love to kind of go through this with you and help you be more successful. That's kind of why we're doing it.
Sinead Kimberley: Exactly. I think that on the just talking about it as well, if it's one of those things where it feels very big and you're thinking, I've got 300 other things I'm meant to be doing, how am I meant to go and look at sustainability and reducing the steps and all of these other things, I think you can almost maybe be led as well by what people are increasingly doing, which is looking at the user experience and getting information from whoever is using your site. Because I was really happy when I saw the increase this year in people who are testing the site. And if you even can't get to that point where you can't do a big user experience testing thing, go and talk to all of the partners you're working with.
Sinead Kimberley: Because the vast amount of knowledge in the kind of community that's formed around all of these attractions, us included, particularly for our clients, even just asking us, you know, go internally and let me know how people experience booking on the site. Partners, I think, will be happy to help have a look at that. Even if it's only a small sample of feedback points that you get that you can maybe incrementally just try and change slowly. But I think opening up that question, however big or small you're able to do it, will mean that by the time we ask you these questions next year, you're that slight step forward from where you want to be. And you don't just look at the report and think, oh, again, I wish were further up.
Sinead Kimberley: I wish we could benchmark ourselves closer to the average or the higher end of the results we're getting. So, like Oz said, just come and have a chat about it. We might say, it's brilliant, it's perfect, there's nothing you could improve. Or we might, say, make the CTA bigger. Small things or big things. Just start the conversation about it, I think, and start thinking about it.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's probably fair to say that as an organisation, we. We're really trying to put our money where our mouth is when it comes to visitor attractions. So if you follow Robert Cheese on Instagram, you'll probably have seen that Sinead that I, that Steve, our project manager, that Paul, we're all going out and visiting attractions and actually trying to experience that booking process as a visitor. And you may well be surprised if you give us a bell or drop an email and say, we'd really like to talk about our website, we can say Great. Because when I booked tickets to come and see you, this bit was really difficult. And there's definitely some personal experience in there as well. So, yeah, talk to us.
Oz Austwick: And if you want to talk to me, I'll come to you happily, as long as you make me a coffee. I'm a sucker for a coffee. So do we have any Calls to Action?
Sinead Kimberley: Talk to us. We're not needy, honest. But please talk to us.
Oz Austwick: We are a little bit needy. Oh, I know what it was I wanted to say Sustainability Action Group. We're very aware that sustainability is of growing importance and yet it's relatively new. And this is something that we're going through ourselves. We're currently reworking our own website and we're helping a of our clients to do those. So what we're trying to do is put together a group of people who are all kind of going through the process together. And this isn't us saying we're the experts at this and we'll help you do it. We've got the technical expertise and we can help with that, but we're all going through the process.
Oz Austwick: So if you want to go through that process and you want to improve the sustainability of your website, then we are putting together a group of people that want to work together and share their wins, share the things that haven't gone as well for them, and hopefully we can all lift each other at the same time. Drop me an email or reach out to us on social media and we'll get you involved if you want to do that. So before we wrap it up for good, I want to ask you the question that we ask everyone that nobody's asked you yet, which is, do you have a book recommendation?
Sinead Kimberley: I do. And not to keep banging on about sustainability, but I will keep banging on about sustainability.
Oz Austwick: She really will.
Sinead Kimberley: Just ahead of Black Friday and all of that madness. I love the visit attractions versions of Black Friday because you're not selling a thing, you're selling an experience when you have your tickets that I love. Keep doing that. But I read a book recently by Patrick Grant, who is in the British Sewing Bee, and his book was called Less. And he has made my life very difficult because now I'm not allowed really to buy things because of my what I've done to my brain. But essentially the book looks at how to buy what you need and look after it and not constantly just need, need more and more.
Sinead Kimberley: And the way he describes pots and pans and jumpers from his gran and all of these other lovely homely feeling things really made me think about where you put your money and what you're getting back out of that. And so when it comes to, for example, when were in Stockholm, were thinking, what do we want to do? We don't want to go shopping. We do want to go and try and do an escape room. We want to go into the Paradox Museum. We want to go do something, experience something. I feel like it makes sense to put the money there rather than buying another thing that you don't really need. And so maybe ahead of Black Friday as well.
Sinead Kimberley: I think I'll try and keep that in my mind when I see all of those Amazon sales with things that I definitely want but don't necessarily need right now and try and look instead at experiences you can get from it. So, yeah, I think read that book or listen to it on BookBeat or any of the others that are available. But yeah, it really opened my eyes a little bit to the free Black Friday things you're seeing around you, I think as well.
Oz Austwick: Amazing. I mean, I've not read it, so I will definitely. I'll get a copy and have a read. And if you're listening to this and you want a copy for free, get onto Twitter X and be the first person to say, I want a copy of the book Sinead has recommended and we'll stick one in the post to you. So thanks so much for talking to me for agreeing to come on when you're not feeling 100%. I really appreciate it. I've had a lovely time chatting and maybe we should just attack Paul. What do you think?
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah, might as well. He's not here to argue.
Oz Austwick: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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Cambridge Science Centre - A Nomadic attraction that finally found a home
30 okt· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Competition ends on 13th November 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://www.cambridgesciencecentre.org/
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/rebecca-porter-8a0b85121/
Becca is a seasoned development and business strategist with over five years in the leadership team at Cambridge Science Centre (CSC). She has played a pivotal role in driving CSC’s strategic growth, securing transformative results, including a 50% increase in income and establishing key partnerships that help sustain CSC’s mission.

Her expertise in fundraising, stakeholder engagement, and business development has been integral to CSC’s evolution. Representing CSC at external events, Becca engages with stakeholders across academia, industry, and government, fostering impactful relationships that strengthen the organisation’s community presence and reach.

Before joining CSC, Becca held the position of Licensing Manager at the RSPB, where she led efforts to negotiate intellectual property rights for product-based partnerships. Her strategies resulted in an increase in profit, underscoring her strong commercial acumen and collaborative approach.

With a professional background enhanced by six years of international experience with Carnival Corporation in Miami, Florida, Becca brings a global perspective to her work. Her ability to connect and communicate across diverse sectors reflects her adaptability and understanding of complex business landscapes.

Becca’s approach is marked by her commitment to expanding CSC’s impact and access to science engagement, helping inspire the next generation of learners. Her ongoing efforts to cultivate partnerships and innovate within her field underscore her dedication to making science accessible and engaging for all.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-g-farrer-ph-d-25a18976/
Andrew Farrer is the Head of Programmes and Delivery at Cambridge Science Centre. A biological anthropologist by background, he started at the Centre as a Science Communicator travelling around communities and schools on the Roadshow programme. In his current position, he makes sure the team has what they need to deliver the very best in science communication. His PhD used ancient DNA to understand how the human microbiota (the bacterial community living on and in the human body – and keeping us alive!) changed in Britain over the last 1,000 years.
Alongside this, he used his passion for science and interest in theatre to develop a science communication programme to bring together the interdisciplinary academics at the Australian Centre for Ancient DNA – an effort that resulted in new international collaborations. He has just got back from a cycling tour in the country of Georgia, where he evaded angry guard dogs, navigated roads that were active building sites, and managed to avoid falling off until the last day! The trip was amazing though!
https://www.linkedin.com/in/mandy-curtis-688a33111/
Mandy Curtis is the Head of Exhibitions at Cambridge Science Centre. She has been with the Cambridge Science Centre since its opening in 2013, beginning as a Science Communicator, then progressing through the Education team and into Product Development. In her current role as Head of Exhibitions, Mandy oversees everything that is in and delivered at the Centre. She is also responsible for the Centre’s overall look, building maintenance, and alarm systems, as well as keeping the shop stocked with STEM-related items.
Previously, Mandy worked in the pharmaceutical industry and as a school lab technician, where she also ran a STEM club. She was actively involved in Scouting in her village for over 15 years, remaining on the Executive Committee after her own children left and leading sessions for science-related badges, along with serving as the camp cook.
Mandy enjoys walks along the beach in Norfolk with her very large dog, visiting as often as she can. She also loves having her children and their partners back home, especially since they return to their own homes afterward!
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.
In July this year, Cambridge Science Centre opened its new building, returning to the real world after having been a science centre without a building for several years.
In today's episode, I'm joined by some of their team. Andrew Farrer, Head of Programmes and Delivery, Rebecca Porter, Head of Development, and Mandy Curtis, the Head of Exhibitions.
And we'll talk about the trials and tribulations of opening a new building from scratch and the benefits now the site has opened.
Paul Marden: Hello, everyone. Welcome to Skip the Queue. Becca, Andrew, Mandy, lovely to see you. Really good to talk to you about the experience that you've had recently at Cambridge Science Centre, returning to the real world and having your own physical building for the Science Centre.
Paul Marden: For listeners, I've had a little part to play because Rubber Cheese worked with CSC on the journey building websites. So I know a little bit about what's going on, but there's a whole load of stuff. I'm sure there's loads of anecdotes and stories that you're going to be able to tell us all about the trials and tribulations of building a brand new science centre from scratch. Before we get to that, it would be really nice if we did our icebreaker question. So I'm going to do one for each of you. Okay. So it doesn't matter which order I go in because you're not going to get any benefit from knowing what the question was. All right, so I'm going to start with you, Becca, because you’re first. First on my. On my list. Okay.
Paul Marden: What one thing would you make a law that isn't one already?
Rebecca Porter: Oh, that is very interesting. I'm not sure. the rest of those.
Andrew Farrer: The rest of us are feeling a bit nervous at this stage. Yeah, Becca's law is Andrew is no longer allowed in any meeting.
Rebecca Porter: Yeah, yeah, that's a good one. I'll go with that.
Paul Marden: That's very specific. I think when I come to power, not if I come to power, I don't think I dive that spec. I might go more broad. It might be about abolishing foods that I cannot abide eating or something like that. Not particularly. Take one of my team out of a meeting. Seems a little bit wasteful.
Andrew Farrer: You don't know what I'm like in meetings.
Paul Marden: Andrew, what is the biggest mistake you've made in your life?
Andrew Farrer: Working with Becca, obviously. No, no. I just digest. Biggest mistake I've made in my life. There's a lot of things in the moment are very stressful and you think, oh, my. What? Why am I here? Why did I do this? Why did I not think more or think less or whatever? But everything that was probably, this is a massive mistake in the moment just turned out to be a really good story in hindsight.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew Farrer: No, I'm happy with all of them.
Paul Marden: There's some things that you think, oh, gosh, I really wish I could have deleted that from my memory completely. I spent a year doing a PhD and then dropped out because I realised that I didn't like working in a box on my own. But I don't think I would actually go back and not spend that year doing what I was doing, because it took quite a lot to realise that I don't like sitting in a box on my own and I actually like having other people around me. Yeah. At the time, it didn't, sitting on the bench at Egham Station, deciding, what am I doing with my life? It didn't feel like that was such a great decision that I'd made.
Andrew Farrer: No, but they're all part of the sort of fabric that makes up the next decision, aren't they?
Paul Marden: So, yeah, the rich tapestry.
Andrew Farrer: That's it. That's the rich tapestry of life.
Paul Marden: And, Mandy, I'm going to go for one last one, actually. It's not too dissimilar to what were just talking about. What was your dream job when you were growing up?
Mandy Curtis: Before I answer that, I just have to give you my answer to Becca's question, because it's something I discussed at a previous job. If I could make one law, it would be that there was only one type of black sock.
Rebecca Porter: That's actually a brilliant answer.
Paul Marden: Again, hyper specific.
Mandy Curtis: No. Trying to pair up all those black socks and none of them are quite the same. That is so annoying. So, yeah, that would be my law.
Paul Marden: I don't think I need. I think I could broaden it and just say, there is only one type of sock, because my daughter's sock drawer is not black. There's not a single black sock in there.
Mandy Curtis: I couldn't do that to Andrew.
Andrew Farrer: You leave my socks out of it.
Mandy Curtis: My actual question, when I was small, I had, in my mind, I wanted to be a scientist. Throughout all the jobs I've ever had, that's pretty much what I've been. And the job I had before this, I worked as a school lab technician and my boss came to me one day and said, “I've just got an email from Cambridge Science Centre. Looking for science communicators. I think you'd be really good at it. Why don't you apply? And I did.” And that was when it was, yeah, this is what I should always have done.
Paul Marden: So interesting, isn't it? That's not a natural leap, is it, from a lab technician in a school to being a science communicator. But there's so much about teaching which is just telling the story and engaging people and making them want to do stuff, isn't it?
Mandy Curtis: Yeah. It's surprising that there are a lot of parallels. Yeah. The thinking on your feet being one of the biggest ones.
Rebecca Porter: I actually used to want to be a marine biologist when I was younger, and then I realised growing up that I'm nowhere near the sea where I am now, so that was slightly problematic. And also I saw the movie Jaws for the first time as a child and it terrified me and I quickly changed my mind about that.
Paul Marden: Okay, let's segue from Mandy in your science communicator role, because I think it's a good segue. Let's talk a little bit about the journey that you've been on at Cambridge Science Centre over the last few years. Andrew, I'm going to start talking to you, mate, because I remember vividly last year I was at the association of Science and Discovery Centres conference and you were on stage with the guys from We The Curious, and you were talking about what it was to be a science centre without a building. Yeah. And the work that you guys were doing in the community for the listeners that weren't at the conference. Let's just take a step back and talk about the background of Cambridge Science Centre. You had a physical building, didn't you?
Paul Marden: And you moved out of there and you spent a period of time being remote, virtual. I don't know what the quite the right term is, but you spent a while on the road. What prompted that to leave the previous centre?
Andrew Farrer: Yeah. So that question that was being asked in the conference that what is a science centre without the building? It's really something that's very much in the fabric, the DNA of Cambridge Science Centre. The organisation is 11 years old now and through that time being an organisation that has a science centre and also being an organisation that does the outreach, which is what we would call like going out into the community and into schools and being in the spaces of the people that you're most wanting to engage, both of those things have existed in parallel and that there are strengths to both having a physical centre and being able to do that kind of Outreach and Cambridge Science Centre from the very beginning that brought those two things together and maximised the benefits of both in service of the other, really.
Andrew Farrer: So what if you had all of the assets of a full science centre, but you could take them out on the road? What if you have the flexibility of kits that could be taken out the road, that you could do them in a space that you control? So that has always been part of things. We've had, you know. The new Science Centre that has just opened is the third permanent location that the organisation has had in its lifetime. And the decision to leave the previous one was something that was taken by the whole team. We got everyone around the table. This was post COVID. We were still coming out of having been truly remote. We're all about being hands on with science, which is very difficult in the world where you're not allowed touch anything or stand close to anyone, you know.
Andrew Farrer: So we had to do a lot of stuff to respond to that. And then we came out of that situation, world came out of that situation and were sort of reconsidering what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it. And the Science Centre we had up until that point, until 2022, you know, had been a fabulous space. We've done some amazing stuff in it. We were very closed of what we've done there. But were just finding with the goals we had, with what we wanted to move on to, it was no longer a space that could fit that set of targets. So the question, what was Science Centre without a building? Wasn't that question stepping up because we decided to lose the building?
Andrew Farrer: It was kind of, it became a bit more of a focus, but really about the fixed space. Taking a step back for a moment while we really thought about what we wanted. And then we got the amazing opportunity that I'm sure we'll be talking about in a sec with the Science park and Trinity College, which brought that having a fixed space back up on par with the Science Centre without a building. And those two are still. They've always been, they were and they are continuing to be in parallel. And we're just about ready to open up one of our new pop up sign centres. That would be a space out in New England which is going to run there for the future as well, which will run in parallel to this fixed space.
Andrew Farrer: So it's not a new question for us, it will never be an old question for us. It is what Cambridge Science Homeset is brilliant.
Paul Marden: And during that period where you were without a fixed home, what really worked well for you, what was effective about that outreach programme and that was a became the sole focus for a period of time?
Andrew Farrer: I mean were building on what was what we've been learning and what had been working well for that point I guess the last nine years. Yeah. So we knew that our exhibits, our hands on exhibits where you can, you don't just see a phenomenon, you can experience that moment, you've been affected, they're all possible. And so we could take them out. And we'd done that before with setting up sort of science engagement zones in banks and leisure centres. The corner of ASDA one time I think and we evolved that during just after Covid into these pop up science into these fully fledged kind of spaces that were on sort of par with the fixed space.
Andrew Farrer: And we really lent into that, created these full, effectively full science centres with those exhibits, with the shows, with the activities, with the science communicators who could have the conversations with people and engage with the kids and answer questions and have a bit of fun and have a laugh, all that kind of stuff. In spaces that were underused in the community. We could take over empty shop units. We were in balance of rural museums. We've been all over the place and we are in those communities. We become part of the communities in the spaces. They already know it. Yeah. And that sort of eases that sort of barrier. Oh, I've got to go to the science place. Because suddenly the place part of that is their place. Yeah. And we're all about making the science.
Andrew Farrer: It's as open and fun as possible and building up with whatever level anyone walks in with. So that was, it really was really kind of having the opportunity to hone that ability to create the proper full science centre spaces. And in getting that honed that raised our level on well, what is the fixed science centre? If you can have a fixed thing, what can you do bigger and better there? Which in Eintrum Nadia will want to speak to later. Because some of the new exhibits are phenomenal and they come out of the learning we've had from being on the road and being able to engage people in their spaces and give them a reason now to come to this space.
Paul Marden: I'm guessing that when you go out into their space rather than making them come to you get to meet and see very different people. You know, the barrier that exists in somebody having to come to your building means there's a lot of people, there's a lot of young people, there's A lot of families for whom a great day out is not automatically thought of, you know, when they're thinking about what they're going to do at the weekend, they might not necessarily think of a science centre because it's just not what they consider to be fun. But if you go out to them, into their spaces where they are familiar, in the corner of Asda, in the Rural Museum or whatever, you're. You're getting closer to the people that don't normally walk into a science centre.
Andrew Farrer: Absolutely, yeah. It's all about. Every single person has some form of barrier that they have to deal with. And, you know, many people have many more barriers than others. No matter what we do, there are still barriers to overcome, but it's about dropping those as low as you can and thinking about getting people across them and supporting them and getting them across them. So, I mean, absolutely, if you say if you're in their space, you remove the whole suite of barriers that exist into travelling to a fixed science centre, which is something we're thinking about and trying to then reduce those. For the fixed science centre. There are other barriers that apply.
Andrew Farrer: Even though you're in their space and you've still got to do a lot of thinking and a lot of work to make sure it's an inviting space that they feel they're able to come into, that they can then get comfortable in, and then they can start asking questions and playing with things and break that kind of, oh, it's not for me bubble. Because it definitely is for everyone. You want each other play.
Paul Marden: Yeah. Even so, making it an inviting space and making them want to take that step over the threshold into wherever the space is that you are. I've watched kids I'm thinking of a year ago, I was at the London Transport Museum and they had a big exhibition all around sustainability in their exhibition space, which is, I don't know, ⅓ or 3/4 of the way around the museum. And you could just see these kids just stood at the edge watching because they didn't feel confident that they could step into the space and immerse themselves into what was happening in that space. And you've just got to. You've got to make it easy for them to take that step over the threshold, haven't you?
Andrew Farrer: Absolutely, yeah. And it's the reason that we have so many different ways of engaging, that the exhibits are there with the activities are there, that the shows are there, that the communicators are there, because people will do that in different ways. What they're comfortable starting to approach, you know, is different from the depth you can give them later. And people will do it in very different ways. But one of the early pop up science centres we had a day where we had, we partnered with a group from the University of Cambridge called Chaos with a student science engagement team.
Paul Marden: Right.
Andrew Farrer: And their name is apt, but they're brilliant. They're brilliant. And they were all around the earth and all of these different activities and it was really interesting because we noted that, you know, almost to a Percy, everyone walked in, every kid, every adult and they went straight to our exhibits. Not because Chaos wasn't inviting, not because they didn't have cool things, not because they were pushing people away in any way. But it was exactly as you say it was that moment to be like, I don't know, this space, here's a thing that's non threatening, it's not going to ask me a question. But the Chaos were asking kind of questions that were going to, you know, they were going to get at someone for. But you don't know that when you're first walking.
Andrew Farrer: No, you play with the exhibit, you start to, you know, that's the safe thing, you start to see what it's doing and then you receive. People build up the confidence, exactly as you say, and then they kind of wander over and suddenly they were just doing laps of the space were in. Just like repeat visiting every one of these activities. Brilliant. You know, and that's a mini version of the journey we want to take people on across their lives.
Paul Marden: Yeah. Okay, so question for all three of you then. What was the motivation then really behind returning to a fixed building? Was it an aspiration that you always had, that you wanted to return to a fixed centre or what was the driver for that?
Rebecca Porter: We've absolutely always had an aspiration to have a fixed venue in Cambridge. Obviously the clue is in the name Cambridge Science Centre. And we knew that we needed that nucleus, that hub that we could operate all of our other engagements from. And certainly from a supporting organisation perspective, it's very useful for us when we're having those conversations with external stakeholders about the opportunities to get involved with a physical space as well as our outreach programme. So certainly from that point of view, we had an objective to find one. Interestingly, we'd done a piece of work with a group, there's a network in the city called Cambridge Ahead and as part of Cambridge Ahead they have a young advisory committee and we'd done a scoping exercise with the young advisory committee Thinking about that positioning, where we wanted to be.
Rebecca Porter: And the key takeaway from their research was that we needed a sort of peripheral location, so an edge of city location that was accessible, that could work for, work well for schools, but would also still allow us to have that public engagement. And for us as an organisation, we really wanted to deepen our relationship with some of the communities that were existing a bit on the margins of the city, particularly those in the north that do suffer from varying levels of deprivation. And Cambridge is a very interesting place because despite the fact that it's got this really illustrious heritage and it's seen as being very affluent, actually it's the most unequal city in the uk, or certainly in England.
Paul Marden: Oh, is it really?
Rebecca Porter: Yeah. And so we wanted to be able to have our physical space closer to those communities that need more access, need more support, more guidance, so that we could bridge a gap between them and between the Cambridge Science park, which is our new home, but not just the science park, the wider ecosystem and the other research and innovation parks. So, yes, absolutely. We always had an objective to get another physical space operating.
Paul Marden: Lovely. So, Becca, I'm guessing this doesn't all come for free and that somebody's got to fund the work to get the centre together. And that's your job really, isn't it, to find people to help you do that, say, how'd you go about doing that?
Rebecca Porter: So absolutely everything that we do is completely reliant on the support of like minded organisations and individuals. So we go about in lots of different ways. We have a wonderful board of trustees who are very engaged with the work that we do and they help to make introductions to us in their networks. But it really is a case of going out and doing a lot of footwork, understanding what organisations are operating in our space and what their objectives are in terms of community engagement and how do we align with that. So there's a lot of research that goes on in the background to figure out who we should be talking to.
Rebecca Porter: It's wonderful being in a city like Cambridge because 9 times out of 10, most of the companies we talk to do have some objective to do something around STEM engagement in particular. And they're also very supportive of our own objective, which is to widen participation and increase diversity. So they understand that the work that we're doing with those children from the most underserved communities is absolutely vital. So that makes it quite an easy story, quite a compelling story to tell. But we are, we're hugely lucky to have the supporters that we do. And I think key supporters for us are obviously the Cambridge Science park team who enabled the transition into our new venue. Because it was, it all seemed to just line up perfectly really that our own internal discussions around where we wanted to position ourselves.
Rebecca Porter: We knew we wanted to deepen our own relationships with these various communities. We knew we needed some kind of peripheral centre space. Unbeknownst to us at the time, but happening in parallel, the Science park team were also considering their relationship with their neighbouring communities and how they can enhance that and do more. Because the Science park is actually, it's a very porous space. So not all of the research and innovation parks are quite the same. But Cambridge Science park absolutely wants to be open to its local communities. It wants them to come in, spend time in the green spaces there and understanding a bit about the different companies that are working within the park. And the Science park as well as the main land owner, which is Trinity College University of Cambridge, again are very keen to support STEM engagement where they can.
Rebecca Porter: So it felt like they, our objectives at the time as well as the Science Park's objectives just meshed together beautifully and that resulted in us having this transformational opportunity to be inside the heart of the Science park and alongside that in wider discussions with some of the stakeholders of the park. Specifically were introduced to some of the property development companies that are operating in there who again were very supportive of what we're trying to achieve, but also had the vision to understand that not only are we supporting the local communities, but we're offering a conduit for supporting their tenants. So how can we help them to realise their tenants ambitions? And so they've been very supportive as well.
Rebecca Porter: And we're also incredibly lucky to have a suite of organisations that we refer to as our Executive Council, who are our corporate partners that are the lifeblood of our organisation. Their funding and their support underpins everything that we do. So I want to just recognise our Executive Council members in particular, but also the key stakeholders for us with the new centre are the Science Park, Trinity College, Brockton Everlast, an organisation called LifeArc and ARM the microprocessing chip company. So yes, they're all major stakeholders and we're very lucky to have them.
Paul Marden: That's amazing. So the Executive Council, that's quite interesting. What do they have some influence over the work that you do and the direction that you take? It's more than just them handing over sponsorship money, it's actually an engagement in what you do.
Rebecca Porter: Absolutely. Nothing that we do is transactional, so we don't ever take anyone's money and run. We always try to offer reciprocal programme opportunities, staff engagement opportunities, and with our executive council members, they really do help shape and influence the trajectory of the organisation. So we have regular meetings with them, we talk to them about what our plans are, where they think there may be opportunities that we aren't perhaps looking at, that we could be exploring or should be exploring. And they certainly do have that. That level of influence over the direction of the organisation in general.
Paul Marden: And then I suppose the choice of the location is partly driven by those relationships that you built with Trinity College and the Science park. And I guess it was collaborative, the choice of the location itself. Yeah, you didn't go looking for a building with some shortlist. There was. You built a partnership with these people and together you found the space that worked for all of you.
Rebecca Porter: Yeah, absolutely. In fact, the space that we're currently occupying is a pre existing building, so it's called the Trinity Centre and it actually was a conferencing space with a catering facility on site as well as the park barbers, interestingly. And so through the relationship with Trinity College and through the discussions with the team in the park, we recognise that actually the space could be working a bit harder, not just for the science park, but for the wider community. And so we essentially repurposed one half of the ground floor of that existing building and Mandy's done a fabulous job turning that space into what is now our new Science Centre. So, yes, I mean, personally, I think having been in that space a lot, if you didn't know it was a conference centre before we took it over, I don't think you'd ever guess that.
Rebecca Porter: So, yeah, it's been really wonderful.
Paul Marden: You just cued me up perfectly to turn to Mandy. How do you go about filling a space with all the amazing exhibits to make it from a conference venue into this exciting and inviting science centre? How did you even go about doing that? Did somebody give you a blank sheet of paper and tell you off you go, just do whatever you like?
Mandy Curtis: Well, pretty much it was a blank slate to work with. But then of course, we've got all our experience from the years leading up to this. So we've got a suite of exhibits that we know work and we know which ones we wanted to take forward, which ones we wanted to build on and expand on. So although in some ways it was a blank slate, it was very much a guided blank slate. So it's still a. For a Science centre. It's still a relatively small space, so we made the decision early on that we wouldn't have themed areas. So we're not big enough to have a space corner and a biology corner. So we've gone for an experiential centre. So you come in for the experience, you come in for one of the most. The thing for me is intergenerational play and learning.
Mandy Curtis: So families coming in together, there's something for everyone. So that led the thinking and the decision making with exhibits and I reached out to lots of different people, existing standing exhibit makers, and some people have never made anything like this before. So we've got a real mix here. But what was important was that it's not somewhere where you walk, where the kids walk in, press a button and walk away. It was about prolonged active engagement. So each exhibit has layers of interaction. So you can come in, do one thing, come back another time and do something different or within the same visit, you can build on what you're doing. So, yeah, it's very much about the experience.
Paul Marden: So is there an aspiration for the kids and the families to revisit to you? Do you want to create this space where they want to return several times over the space of a year or even as they grow up? You're supporting them through different things that interest them?
Mandy Curtis: Absolutely. That's. That's very much what it's about. We have a membership where you want to create the feeling of belonging, of being. This is a place to come with annual membership, you can come as many times as you like. Lots of the exhibits will be the same, but because of the way we've made them and we've prepared them, there's always something different to do with them. And also we have a programme of shows and lab activities that constantly change, so there's always something different and new to do in the space.
Paul Marden: Have you got particular audiences in mind that you want to appeal, make the space appealing to?
Mandy Curtis: Yeah, we have a very specific audience and I call that everybody. That everything here can be reached by anybody. That's. Yeah, I don't exclude or include anybody. That's why. That's part of the layering. So younger kids, less able kids, older people, there's something here for everyone. I mean, obviously we have an age range for children that is most suitable, but there are also things for younger kids. There's. I mean, quite often we get families coming in and the adults are saying, well, this is way too good for just kids. And that's exactly how I feel about it as well. It's. It's a family place, it's for pretty much any age group, any. Any abilities. Yeah.
Paul Marden: So how do you make that. If you're appealing to everyone, how do you make it more inclusive to kids with challenges? Kids with send difficulties, for example? How do you provide something that can enrich everybody's understanding of science?
Mandy Curtis: It's really about having some familiar things here in two different ways. So there's familiarity in that. We've got some of our classic exhibits on site, so if people have ever been to one of our previous sites, there'll be things that they recognise from there, but also bringing in things from the outside world, from their world at home. So one of the exhibits is a paper plane launcher. I mean, who hasn't made a paper plane? So it's stuff that they're familiar with, but come here and do it and it just brings out a whole new level. So we talk about ways you can build a better paper plane, ways you can adjust your paper plane, and then, of course, just putting it through the launcher is just incredible fun. So it's taking stuff that people know about and can relate to and that's really important.
Mandy Curtis: So some of the, some concepts that we want to get across are potentially outside of people's experiences completely. But if we can present it in a way that starts at level that they're familiar with, they can relate to and engage with, then there's a progression through and we're able to get concepts across that you might, if you went straight in at the top level, you just, it just wouldn't engage them in the same way.
Rebecca Porter: To add to that, I just wanted to say that our magic pixie dust, if you will, that brings everything to life, really are our team of science communicators. So that also, you know, that's what, you know, brings every experience in the Science Centre to life is our wonderful team.
Paul Marden: Yeah, I mean, that's this, that. That's like every good attraction, isn't it? It's never about the physical space, it's about the feelings that you get and it's the people that are there that help you build that feeling, isn't it? That's why it's a magical place that makes people want to come back, isn't it? How do you also serve that very local community? Have you found that by locating yourselves on the science park, where you are close to those areas of multiple deprivation within the city? Have you found that just mere locality is enough to encourage people in or are you actively doing things to bring that local audience to you?
Rebecca Porter: Absolutely both. So we're already doing a lot with one particular community. There's a part of the city called King's Hedges and we see a group of children there once a week for an after school club and have just started transitioning that club from their own space. We've been operating it in their community centre but now they are coming to us, which is fabulous. And one thing that I've really loved since we've opened the new venue is our proximity to those particular communities. An example of how much more accessible we are is that we did a soft launch before we did our major public opening in the summer with some local schools, one of which was King's Hedges Primary School, and the teachers were able to just walk the children to us and that's never been possible before.
Rebecca Porter: And we've got much bigger plans to expand the community focused piece to other parts of the city because we would really love to have at least four days a week where we're running an after school club of some description for groups around the city that face additional barriers. So, yeah, we are all over that.
Paul Marden: That's amazing. It sounds so exciting. I run a coding club for kids at my daughter's school. A lot of it is about the engagement that the kids have. They don't get that enrichment outside in those STEM technology. So for you guys to be reaching out to that local community and offering that after school provision for them to be engaged in science, then there's a group of kids that just must lap that up. They must love it.
Rebecca Porter: Absolutely. And I think Andrew's always said that for us, we obviously there's lots of extracurricular clubs. You've got drama clubs and dance clubs and acting clubs, but very rarely do you come across anything science focused. And what we would love to see moving forward is that's normalised that actually you can go to an after school club, that it's all about science and it's just part of the everyday offering that's available to children, particularly those local to us.
Paul Marden: And have you found, I mean, it's probably too early to tell, but have you found that it's beginning to blur the lines of the science park into the community? Because there's something about Cambridge, isn't there? And the whole he's a world leading hub of science and driving science forward and making science commercially valuable happens at that point where the university meets the rest of the community around it. Are you seeing that you bringing the kids into the space is beginning to open their eyes to what is possible for them on their own doorstep. In terms of science.
Andrew Farrer: Yeah, I think we are seeing the first steps of that, you know, in your previous questions and what Mandy and Becca have said, I think they've, you know, referenced and alluded to the layers. We're talking about the new centre as if, you know, it's open and therefore it's done. It's not done, we're not done, you know, and yes, getting those exhibits in there and all of the work that Mandy put into making them so generalist enough in the sense that, you know, these age ranges, these ability ranges, these, you know, whatever range you want to talk about can access them. But then it is, what's the programming? We only really launched, the soft launch was end of June. The big launch was, you know, end of July. Really.
Andrew Farrer: That only covers 2 of the audiences that we're on, which is the schools and the sort of public inverted commas. There's the everyone this half term we've started that work with the North Cambridge Community Partnership Club that has been moved in that Becca was talking about. But that is very much step one next year is all about filling those four afternoon slots with such a variety that work in such a different way. It's about bringing in the schools throughout the days, throughout the week. It's about flexing those weekends. As Mandy said, it's about finding what all of these different organises, local and more further afield want, need, what their questions are, things like that.
Andrew Farrer: We're here to respond so we can create sessions that the generalist concept of the centre might support those in the send community, but we can create a session where it's okay. This will be the quieter session. This will be where we'll have timings on the exhibits that allow will change the lighting. And we're still sort of exploring and thinking about how we do that. Right. So that the experiences is just as good, just as strong, just as inspiring and isn't affected by the fact that something might have been slightly altered. And there's a flip side to that. There are people who are much better at engaging when there's a lot going on. It's almost like there's a hyper sensitivity. There's things to think about on that side as well.
Andrew Farrer: So this is a project that 2025 will see a lot of work on, but really is a never ending process. As long as there are people and as long as there are individuals which can help deliverance, then we are there to make sure. That everyone gets the access and that means using all of the physical kit, we've got all of these physical spaces and our team to respond as, you know, as much as we can. So.
Paul Marden: So is there much for you? Did your team of science communicators have to do much to get themselves ready to return to the physical space? Or did they walk in the door and it just felt like home straight away? And they were delivering what they've been delivering for 11 good years?
Andrew Farrer: Yeah, there was an element of coming home and there's an element of this is what we do. Because as I said, the outreach and the permeable space are singing in harmony, as it were. But this new space does have. It's new and it's bigger and better and more accessible than anything we've been able to do for. And that has brought things that we haven't experienced before. So we, you know, we made ourselves as kind of theoretically ready as we could. There have been challenges both from a practical running an event venue to how do we. How do we do silent science communication when we are constantly learning? We've changed things already, you know, we're flexing and responding and they affect the things that we wanted to bring in the future that I was referencing before they change each plan.
Andrew Farrer: And we have a lovely timeline, it's very exciting, very big map, lots of post its that shows where we want things to start happening, but each of those responds to that. So there's no one single ready. And again, even when you are as close to ready as might exist, just like the programmes that we offer, that readiness evolves as well. You keep learning.
Paul Marden: Of course. So what were those challenges then? What can we share with listeners? What were some of the things that if you had another swing at it, you'd do differently through this process that you've gone through this transition?
Andrew Farrer: That links back to your, what was your biggest mistake? We only knew we learned because we tried something that didn't in theory worked, you know. Yeah, I mean, there's just some sort of like general practical thinking. You implement a system and then only when it's actually put through its paces you realise, oh, hang on, there's this like scenario tangent that we haven't thought about. There's, you know, there's a few things on that front about practically running the. Running the space. As Becca said, that the science park is porous, but we are one of the big things that is now bringing the public in. So there's, you know, murmuring is in that as well because that porosity has been used in the way it hasn't been previously. And we've been thinking about when are people coming during the day, when are they.
Andrew Farrer: Their repeat visits happening? Which means when do we cycle the lab activities in the show? Talking about, you know, we can do a different show every day but you know, that's probably overkill because people aren't going to come quite every day. But actually what cycle are they coming on so that we can make sure that we, you know, we're providing sort of an awe inspiring moment and a set of curiosity experiences on a wide variety of different topics so that we can find that thing that sparks everyone.
Mandy Curtis: Just to add to what Andrew said, I think it would be hard to label anything we've done as a mistake because we wouldn't be where we are now if we hadn't gone through the process we did. So even stuff, very few things that didn't quite work out well, we've learned from and we've moved on and we've built on. So everything has, I feel everything we've done and has been a positive experience. It's all been, you know, it's all been good.
Paul Marden: It's a very philosophical approach to it, isn't it? The idea that it's never done, the project isn't over, it just continually, you know, it needs continual tweaking and continual improvement.
Andrew Farrer: It's a scientific approach, if anything.
Mandy Curtis: Much as I promised I would be laying down in a dark room by now, I'm not and I won't be. And we're still, you know, there's, we're planning, we're moving forward and looking to next year at the programmes and what we can offer. So yeah, there's always something more to do.
Paul Marden: Once again, you're queuing me up for my next question, which was really what do the goals look like for the future? You've done this massive project, returning to a physical space and getting it ready and opening it up and welcoming people in. Where do you go now? What are the aspirations for the next couple of years?
Mandy Curtis: It's more of the same, better, more different, looking at different approaches at different audiences. We're going to be. I'm already planning and writing the STEM Tots programme for next year. So that's the younger kids, the preschoolers, so there's new audiences all the time to move into. There's school holidays, you know, kids have been over here over the summer for the next school holiday, they're going to want something different. So we're thinking about that, how we can encourage people to come back, what we can offer, what different things, different collaborations. However many companies on the science park. I don't know, Becca probably does. There's people we haven't even spoken to yet. So there's just opportunities everywhere still.
Rebecca Porter: For us, I would say that we are, it's definitely a programmes expansion piece next year. So we need to really solidify what we've got now with our new venue and start building out those different audiences and what the different programmes for each audience will look like. And then it's also making sure that our Popup science centre in Wisbeach continues to go from strength to strength. And so certainly, although we've got this fabulous new venue, we don't lose focus on the outreach work that we're doing as well as building up, building momentum around our support. And Andrew's doing a really wonderful job putting some work into our logic model and our theory of change. And so again it's mapping that out and then how we can link that to, to our, to the work that we're doing.
Rebecca Porter: The supporting organisations, what role can they play in pushing forward our logic model? In particular, we talk a lot about emotions, skills and actions as being what underpins our logic model and it's how can our different partners lean into those things? Are there organisations that want to support the emotions piece? Can we do a skills focused programme with another organisation? So there's still lots of mapping to be done, but hugely exciting stuff.
Andrew Farrer: Opening the doors to the centre was really only the beginning. Now it's making the absolute amount, squeezing every bit of juice out of this amazing fruit that we've been lucky enough to be supported to build for ourselves.
Paul Marden: Stretching your analogy just a little bit there, but it's a very good point.
Andrew Farrer: What analogy if you can't stretch it to its unfathomable limits?
Paul Marden: Andrew, one last question because I think a couple of you have mentioned the Popup Science Centre. Tell me a little bit about what is that and what's the plan for the future?
Andrew Farrer: Yeah, so our Popup science centres are fully fledged science centres. They appear in community spaces. So the ones that I mentioned earlier and they feature our hands on exhibits, they feature our shows, they feature our activities and we are in November moving into a empty well, it's currently empty, but we're about to fill it chalk unit right in the heart of Wisbeach in the Fenland area. So the Fenland region which is on the north of Cambridge, one of these areas that if transport around the area is difficult, sort of deprivation in that area. But there are some great pieces of science, technology, engineering and maths, you know, organisations working in those areas as well.
Andrew Farrer: But it's one of those places where for all of the efforts we put into breaking down the barriers to come into the fixed space, that's one of the areas that we're really struggling. So we're going to that there'll be a fully fledged science centre which will be open to schools and the public on those points through the year to go in, to explore, to have these workshops, to have these shows, to engage, to chat. We are kind of, this is coming off the back of, one of these 18 months long project where we've had these pop up science centres sort of around Fenland. This is kind of where we're settling in and really sort of digging our heels in a little bit. So sort of phase two will start to become much more co development with the community.
Andrew Farrer: We've been able to spend 18 months getting to know the people of this area and then importantly getting to know us. It's now exactly back to what I was talking about earlier. It's been sort of equivalent of the kids walking in and seeing the exhibits and having a play. Now we're ready, both of us and them to have this conversation about well what should a time centre be for you specifically? And honestly we don't know what that will be. But next summer Cambridge Centre and Wis beach will become this whole new thing where there might be forensic escape rooms happening. There could be some giant chain reactions going on with balls and bean bags flying everywhere. People could be building cardboard cities.
Andrew Farrer: I've got no idea because it's actually not down to us, it's down to the people who want to answer the questions that are part of their lives.
Paul Marden: Wowzers. It's just amazing. I'm so excited for you. I'm so pleased because it's been a project that I've been watching from the sidelines growing. I'm so pleased that the project's not over and that there's an aspiration to really push this thing and squeeze it for all it's worth.
Andrew Farrer: Just like my analogies.
Paul Marden: Absolutely. Lastly, we always ask for a book recommendation and you're going to bankrupt me because I've invited three of you on here. So I'm going to get three book recommendations. So what are your recommendations, Becca?
Rebecca Porter: First, first for you, I would say I'm actually a huge fan of an author called Philippa Gregory. And so my favourite book would be The White Queen by Philippa, which is all about Elizabeth Woodville. And Shima was married to I believe Edward IV during the Plantagenet era. So I love a bit of historical fiction. So that's my one.
Paul Marden: Aha. Okay. So my colleague and co host Oz, big into historical reenactment. I'm sure that would be a book that would appeal to him. Andrew, what about you mate? What's your recommendation?
Andrew Farrer: I have a book this is about I've had for years. I mean it's a kid's book really. It's a book called Aquila by someone called Andrew Norris and it's one of these books that it's about a short book. I keep revisiting it every now and again. It's just a story I've always engaged with. But it's funny, looking at it now, it almost seems very relevant. So it's about two young high school lads who on a school field trip get passed away from the rest of their class and end up falling into a cave and discovering a Roman centurion skeleton and by him what turns out to be an alien spaceship. So the navy spaceship have been on earth for some 2,000 years.
Andrew Farrer: And the rest of the book is they don't want to just tell everyone else that the spaceship is here and it's them figuring out okay, well we can't take it home now because we're on a feeder trip so we've got to figure out a way to come back and get it home without anyone seeing it. And then they've got to learn how it works. And it turns out that it's kind of got AI function I guess and it can talk but because it was previously used by Roman, it taught in Latin. So they have to learn Latin. It turns out it's run by water. They figure out how much water. And it's a really brilliant story about these kids solving all of these problems around having quite that fun Canadian spaceship.
Andrew Farrer: But at the same time their teachers are aware that these two kids who've classically not engaged at school at all are suddenly asking all of these really weird non class related questions. And yeah, they figure out the whole spaceship thing but think it's story they've made up for themselves. And so I give them the actual support and engagement they need in school to learn better than they were. But everyone misses that the spaceship is totally real, that these kids are flying off like Mount Everest on the weekend. So I love that.
Paul Marden: Excellent. That sounds really good. That sounds like one I need to read to my daughter. Mandy, last but not least, what's your recommendation?
Mandy Curtis: Just to say Andrew's book was made into a kids' TV series that I remember watching. Yeah, I've just. The most recent book I've read was one from way back. Not fiction. It was Life on Earth, David Attenborough and I reread read it often. It was the series that really sent me on my way to where I am now when I. I was doing unusually a zoology A level and my teacher played us the videos of Life on Earth and yeah, I've never got, never moved away from it. So yeah, that's the book I've read most recently and would recommend.
Paul Marden: What, what a recommendation as well. That's a lovely one. So, dear listeners, as you know, if you go over to X and retweet the show, tweet and say I want Becca or Andrew or Mandy's book and the first person that does that will get that book sent to them. And I think as we got through recommendations, three of you could choose any one of those and we'll make an exception and bankrupt the marketing budget. Guys, it has been absolutely lovely talking to you and finding out a little bit more about the story of the journey that you've been on recently. And I think we should get back together again soon and find out how the pop up is going and what's actually filling that vacant shop because I think that's a really exciting proposition. But thank you for joining me today.
Paul Marden: It's been absolutely marvellous.
Mandy Curtis: Thank you.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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Building a Sustainable Future: Real-World Solutions for Visitor Attractions
9 okt· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden.
If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Special Clips from our previous guests:
Understanding Sustainability Reporting https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/polly-buckland
Polly Buckland sat on the client side in a marketing manager role at BMW (UK) Ltd before co-founding The Typeface Group in 2010. She’s an ideas person, blending creativity and commercial awareness to get the best outcomes for our clients.

The Typeface Group is a B Corp Communications Agency + Design Studio based in North Hampshire. Their mission is to counteract digital chatter by championing authentic and strategic communication. Team TFG work with brilliant minds in business to extract, optimise and amplify their expertise, cutting through content clutter and stimulating sales
while reducing digital waste at all costs. The Typeface Group have been B Corp certified since October 2021 and is currently going through recertification.

Digital Sustainability and the Elephant in the Room https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/james-hobbs
James Hobbs is a people-focused technologist with over 15 years experience working in a range of senior software engineering roles with a particular focus on digital sustainability.
He is Head of Technology at creative technology studio, aer studios, leading the technology team delivering outstanding work for clients including Dogs Trust, BBC, Historic Royal Palaces, and many others. Prior to joining aer studios, James was Head of Engineering at digital agency Great State, where he led a multi-award-winning software engineering team working with clients including the Royal Navy, Ministry of Defence, Honda Europe, the Scouts, and others.
He also has many years experience building and running high-traffic, global e-commerce systems while working at Dyson, where he headed up the global digital technical team.
Making Holkham the UK's most pioneering and sustainable rural estate
https://skipthequeue.fm/episodes/lucy-downing-and-sue-penlington
Lucy Downing - Head of Marketing and Sue Penlington - Sustainability Manager at Holkham Estates.
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions.
Paul Marden: When consumers are asked if they care about buying environmentally and ethically sustainable products, they overwhelmingly answer yes. A recent study by Nielsen IQ found that 78% of us consumers say that a sustainable lifestyle is important to them. And while attractions have been great at a wide range of initiatives to improve their sustainability, this year's Visitor Attraction Website Survey will show that as a sector, we're lagging behind on digital sustainability.
Paul Marden: So in today's episode, I'm going to talk about the learning journey I've been on personally, along with my colleagues at Rubber Cheese, to understand digital sustainability and how to affect real change.
Paul Marden: I'll talk about what I've learned from hosting this podcast and how we've started to make real changes to our processes and our client sites to make them more sustainable. Welcome to Skip the queue. I'm your host, Paul Marden.
Paul Marden: Back in April, I spoke to Polly Buckland from The Typeface Group about the importance of sustainability reporting.
Polly Buckland: There's buckets of research out there as to the relationship between consumer behaviour and sustainability. So McKinsey did a study. “60% of customers actively prioritise purchasing from sustainable businesses.” Capgemini, “77% of customers buy from and remain loyal to brands that show their social responsibility.” I could literally keep quoting stats as to why businesses should take their sustainability goals very seriously and the communication of their sustainability initiatives very seriously, because it's becoming clearer.
There was another stat about primarily women making the decisions based on sustainability of a business, and Millennials and Gen Z being sort of high up the list of people that are taking sustainability creds into consideration when they're making a purchase. So, I mean, it's a barrel load of stats that suggest if you don't have your eye on sustainability reporting and communicating your sustainability goals, you perhaps should have.
Paul Marden: Of course, many attractions have been blazing a trail on the subject of sustainability for years. Going back in the archives of Skip the Queue to 2021, Kelly spoke to Lucy Downing, the Head of Marketing, and Sue Penlington, the Sustainability Manager for the Holkham Estate. First, let's hear from Kelly and Lucy.
Kelly Molson: Lucy, I wondered if you could just give us an overview of Holkham Estates for our listeners that might not be aware of you or visited there themselves.
Lucy Downing: So if you sort of picture it, most of the time when you think about stately homes, you picture a stately home with a garden. At Holkham, we are very much a landscape with a stately home. So 25,000 acres. We have a national nature reserve. A beach, b eautiful beach. It's been in Shakespeare in love. If you know the final scenes of Gwyneth Paltrow walking across the sands, that's Holkham, a bsolutely stunning. We're a farm, but at the centre of that, we've also got our 18th century palladian style mansion and that's home to Lord Lady Leicester and their family. They live in the halls. It's a lived in family home. But then we also have all of our visitor facing businesses.
Lucy Downing: So we've got the hall, our Holkham stories experience, which is an attraction museum telling us all history and the now and the future of Holkham.
Lucy Downing: We've got a high ropes course, cycle hire, boat hire, normally a really buzzing events calendar. We have accommodations. We've got Victoria Inn, which is near the beach. We've also got Pine Woods, which is a holiday park with caravans and lodgers. We have our self catering lodges, which within the park. And then we've got farming, conservation, gamekeeping, land and properties. We've got nearly 300 properties on the estate that are tenanted. A lot of those people work for Holkham, or if not, they work in the local community. We've got forestry and then we've also officiated and it's won lovely awards for the best place to work in the UK. It's a stunning landscape that surrounds it and we've got. I don't know if you've heard of her, but Monica Binnedo, which is global jewellery brand, she's based at Longlands at the offices.
Lucy Downing: She decided a few years back to base her whole business there. She got all of her shops around the world, but that's where her business is. And I think she's ahead of the times, ahead of this year. She sort of knew how wonderful it would be to be working, I suppose, and not in a city centre, so I hope that gives you a flavour. But, yeah, I think it's 25,000 acres of beauty, landscapes with a house in the middle and lots of wildlife.
Kelly Molson: I mean, it really is one of the most beautiful places and that stretch of the world holds a really special place in our hearts. It's somewhere that we visit very frequently and it's stunningly beautiful.
Paul Marden: Later in that episode, Sue shared her insights on their sustainability strategies.
Sue Penlington: So we've got three main themes. One is pioneering environmental gain I, which is all about connecting ecosystems and biodiversity and habitats. One is champion low carbon living, which is all about carbon emissions, our impact on construction and housing, our leisure operations. That sort of thing, and farming. And then the last one is the one that we always talk about. Tread lightly, stamp out waste. So that's all about recycling, reducing single use plastics and that sort of thing. So those three themes are what we're running with for 2021. We've got three goals, which are quite ambitious as well. And for me, I just see 2021 as that year of change where we'll make an impact. So we've done quite a lot of talking, and rightly so, and we want to take our visitors on that journey and really start to chip away at those goals.
Paul Marden: Now, let's talk a little bit about the fears around talking about sustainability. I think one of the things that is getting in the way of an open discourse around digital sustainability is fear. We're afraid of being judged by our actions and our intentions. In a recent survey by Unilever of social media influencers, 38% were afraid to openly discuss sustainability for fear of being accused of greenwashing. Again, let's hear from Polly, which is.
Polly Buckland: Why, again, that storytelling part of the impact reporting is really important for me, because I will say we are not perfect. These are the things that we know we need to work on, but these are the things we've done better. And that's what I really like. The BCorp BIA assessment and their framework is because it takes you across five categories of measurement, and no one's perfect in any of them, but what it does do is it provides a framework for you to better.
Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely.
Polly Buckland: And measure yourself against. Yeah, I think if. I think the messaging behind your sustainability is really important. If you're professing to be perfect and you're not, you will get stung, because I think people can see through that. But if you are showing that you're trying to better, I don't think many people could argue with that.
Paul Marden: Now, let's rewind a little and talk about my interest in digital sustainability. When I spoke to James Hobbs of the aer studios about digital sustainability back in July, we talked about my ignorance. So my background was at British Airways and I was there for ten years. It really wasn't that hard to spot the fact that environmentally, that we have a challenging problem, because when you stood on the end of Heathrow Runway, you can see what's coming out the back end of a 747 as it takes off. But I don't think I ever quite understood the impact of what I do now and how that's contributing more to CO2 emissions than what I was doing previously, which, yeah, I just don't think there's an awareness of that more broadly.
James Hobbs: No, yeah, I'd agree. And it's complicated.
Paul Marden: In what way?
James Hobbs: I guess it's complicated to quantify the carbon impact of the type of work that we do in the digital industry because I guess there's what we're shipping to end users, which is one thing, but most modern websites and applications and stuff are built on a big tower of cloud services providers and all of their equipment has to be manufactured which has a carbon impact and rare earth metals need to be mined out of the grid. All of that stuff. Theres a big supply chain backing all this stuff and we can influence some of that directly, but a large chunk of it, we cant. So it makes choosing your suppliers quite important.
Paul Marden: But in a presentation by my friend Andy Eva-Dale, now CTO of the agency Tangent, he opened my eyes to the impact that the digital sector has on the environment. The Internet consumes 1021 terawatt hours of electricity per year. That's more than the entire United Kingdom. Globally, the average webpage consumes approximately 0.8 grammes of CO2 per page view. For a website with 10,000 monthly page views, that's 102 kilos of CO2 per year.
And as we'll see in a bit, the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey shows this year that the websites in our sector are anything but average. But let's talk about my learning journey. I've used this podcast as a way to learn about the sector and to drill down into sustainability itself. My interviews with Polly and James taught me a lot. It's one of the real benefits of running a podcast.
Paul Marden: I can sit and ask people questions that in real life they may not want to talk about. Beginning from absolute first principles. Following the advice from James in the podcast, I've gone and studied the online materials published by the Green Software foundation, including their green software practitioners certificate. Some of that is quite technical, but a lot of what's in there is a real interest to a lot of people. Now let's talk a little bit about what I've learned along that journey.
In an interesting conversation with Andy Povey the other day, he talked about people's innate reaction to digital sustainability and that for many people, the move to digital feels sustainable. I'm not printing things out anymore, so it must be sustainable. Of course, all that computation and networking has a massive global impact on greenhouse gas emissions, so not every website is sustainable.
Paul Marden: In another conversation I had recently, someone said to me, why does all of this digital sustainability stuff matter? If I host my site on a green hosting server, there's no harmful emissions from the server. But that's only one part of a complex web. The power needed to connect up all the servers in the world and to all of the endpoint devices is immense. Of course, the carbon emitted to generate power varies country by country as well as by time.
And that's not really in our control. But we can definitely control the impact our website has on all of that infrastructure. As the web page is in flight over the Internet to somebody's mobile device, the power it uses and consequently the carbon emitted along the way is therefore something that's definitely in our control.
Paul Marden: The other source of learning for us this year has been the sustainability elements of the rubber cheese survey of visitor attraction websites. We made sustainability a core theme of this year's survey and we found some really interesting things. 80% of attractions in our survey have got some sort of sustainability policy, which is an amazing achievement and sets a benchmark for the sector. Also, a number of attractions are taking active steps to improve the sustainability of their website.
But we found that this isn't necessarily being done in a framework of measuring and monitoring the sustainability of their website. So the changes that people are making could be making improvements to the sustainability of their site, but at worst, some of the techniques being used could actually harm the performance and sustainability of the website.
Paul Marden: The thing is, if you're not testing and measuring, you can't ever know whether the changes that you're making are effective. The Green Business Bureau talk about how benchmarks provide a reference point to assess trends and measure progress and baseline global data. They say, "Companies have begun measuring sustainability performance, which allows them to make continuous assessments, evaluate where they lie on the sustainability agenda and make data driven decisions and policies.
Measuring sustainability requires proper selection of key sustainability metrics and a means of making effective process improvements. These measures provide real time data and much needed quantitative basis for organisations to strategise and mitigate environmental and social and economic risks." I'll come back to making process improvements later, but for now let's just stick with measures. Back to James Hobbs, who talked about the ways in which you can measure the CO2 emissions on our website.
James Hobbs: There are some tools out there that you can use to help you quantify the carbon impact of what you've got out there in the wild now. So the big one that most people talk about is websitecarbon.com, which is the website carbon calculator that was built by, I think a combination of an agency and some other organisations come up with an algorithm, it's obviously not going to be 100% accurate because every single website app is slightly different and so on, and as a consistent benchmark for where you are and a starting point for improvement. Tools like that are really good. Ecograder is another one. Those offer non technical routes to using them.
Paul Marden: Now, both of these websites use similar technologies and methodologies to understand the CO2 emissions of a website. But the survey shows more than half of attractions have never tested the CO2 emissions of their site. This got me thinking. If it's that easy to test the sustainability of a single webpage and you can run them on any website, but most attractions aren't doing it, then what can we as Rubber Cheese do to help? So in this year's survey, we've run the largest audit of visitor attraction sustainability scores that we're aware of. So working with our lovely podcast producer Wenalyn, who also supports me with the survey, firstly, I run a proof of concept gathering and comparing data for a small number of attractions in our database this year.
Paul Marden: Once we began to better understand the data, Wenalyn went and ran this against all of the sites that were in our database. With this, we hope to support the sector with a benchmark of webpage sustainability that can be used by anyone in the sector. And what this has shown us is that 58% of attraction websites are rated f by Website Carbon. That's 8% worse than the general population of all websites. But the sobering thing for me as an agency owner is that the sites that we build were in that 58%. The work that we've been doing recently isn't good enough from a sustainability perspective. So this triggered a number of projects internally for us to improve the sustainability posture of the sites that we design and build.
Paul Marden: So I'm going to dig into one of those sites and the journey we've been on to remediate the sustainability of their site, because I think it can give a really nice understanding of the journey that you have to go on, the changes that you can make, and what the impact of those changes could be. Now, we started by benchmarking the scores for the site in question from Website Carbon and Ecograder. And this site was a grade F and marked 51 out of 100 by Ecograder. From there, we drove our improvements off of the feedback that Ecograder gave us. We worked as a team to estimate the work involved in the feedback from Ecograder to identify the tasks with the lowest estimated effort and the highest potential impact.
Paul Marden: Essentially going for the quick wins, we implemented a number of really simple measures, we implemented lazy loading of images. This is making the browser only download images when they're just about to show on screen. If you don't lazy load an image on a page, then when the webpage opens, the browser will go and grab the image, calculate the size, and redraw the webpage with that image in it, even though the image is off screen. If the user then clicks something in the top part of the screen, maybe in the top navigation, and they never scroll down, they will never see that image. So all that network traffic that was used, all the computation in the browser to be able to figure out the size and paint the screen, was completely wasted because the user never got to see the image.
Paul Marden: So by lazy loading, it means that if a person doesn't scroll all the way down the page, then an image near the bottom of the page will never get loaded. And it's an incredibly simple code change that you can write in now. This used to be something that you had to write custom code to implement, but most browsers now support lazy loading, so it should be really easy for people to implement that.
Paul Marden: Another thing that we did was to correctly size images. We found that, but with best rule in the world, our editors were uploading images that were very high resolution, very big images, even though on screen we might only show a thumbnail. By resizing the images inside WordPress, we've made it easy for our editors to upload whatever size image that they like. But we only share the smaller image when somebody views the webpage, again, cutting down network traffic as a result of that. One other thing that we made a change on was to make the website serve more modern image formats.
Paul Marden: Again, we used a WordPress package to do this, called imagify, and it means that our editors can upload images using the file formats that they're familiar with, like JPEG, GIF and PNG, but that we convert them to more modern formats like WebP inside WordPress. And that has better compression, making the images smaller without any discernible loss of quality, and making the whole webpage smaller, lighter, faster as a result of it, which has the impact of reducing the CO2 emissions that are needed to be able to use that webpage just as a guide. We measure everything that we do in the business in terms of the time it takes us to do things. So we're real sticklers for time tracking, but it was really important in this project for sustainability to work out what the differences were that were making.
Paul Marden: So these changes, those three that I just outlined there cost us about a day and a half of development effort and much of that was done by one of our junior developers. So it wasn't hugely complex work that was done by an expensive, experienced developer. But in return for those changes, that one and a half days of effort, we've seen an improvement in rating by website carbon from F to B and on eco grader from 54 out of 100 to 83 out of 100. This puts the site well into the realm of better than most websites on the Internet and better than 84% of attractions in this year's survey. Is it enough? No, of course not. We can do more and in fact, there are still technical improvements that we can make that don't impinge at all on the user's experience.
Paul Marden: We can and we will make more changes to move the site from B to A or even to A+. But there's no doubt that following the old 80-20 rule, these marginal gains will be progressively harder and more costly to achieve. And there may be changes that are needed that will impinge on the user experience. Some things you cannot improve from a sustainability perspective without changing what the user is going to experience. If you've got an auto playing video on your website that consumes bandwidth, it generates network traffic. You cannot remove that video without removing the video entirely and changing it to be something that isn't autoplay but plays w hen a button presses that will have an impact on the user experience. Not everyone will click that button.
Paul Marden: Not everyone will watch that video and say not everyone will necessarily have the same feeling about the attraction that they got when there was an autoplay video in place. But there are undoubtedly lots of things that can be done that don't impact the user experience of the site. One of the changes that we still haven't made, which is a little bit more effort, it's a little bit more complexity, and adds a little bit of costs to the hosting of the website is the introduction of a Content Delivery Network or CDN. Here's James Hobbs again from aer.
James Hobbs: From a technical angle, I think one of the most impactful things you can do, beyond making sure that your code is optimised and is running at the right times, at the right place, is simply to consider using a content delivery network. And for your listeners who aren't familiar with a content delivery network, a CDN is something that all of us have interacted with at one point or another, probably without realising. In the traditional way of serving or having a website, you've got some service somewhere in a data centre somewhere. When someone types your website address in, it goes and fetches that information from the web server and back comes a web page in the simplest sense.
James Hobbs: Now, if your website servers live in Amsterdam and your users on the west coast of America, that's a big old trip for that information to come back and forth, and it's got to go through lots of different hops, uses up lots of energy. A Content Delivery Network is basically lots and lots of servers dotted all over the planet in all of the major cities and things like that can keep a copy of your website. So that if someone from the West Coast of America says, "Oh, I'm really interested in looking at this w ebsite.", types the address in, they get the copy from a server that might be 10,20, 50 miles away from them, instead of several thousand across an ocean.
James Hobbs: So it loads quicker for the user, which is great from a user experience, SEO, but it's also great from an energy point of view, because it's coming from somewhere nearby and it's not having to bounce around the planet. That's one thing that you could do that will make a massive and immediate impact commercially and from a sustainability point of view.
Paul Marden: So there's another example of something that you can do that has very little impact on the experience of the website. In fact, it massively improves the user experience of the website, takes relatively little effort, but offers a huge improvement. Those are all things that we've done to one individual website. Let's talk a little bit about how we bake that into our process. In a 2022 article in the Harvard Business Review about how sustainability efforts fall apart, they recommend embedding sustainability by design into every process and trade off decision making. I found that language really interesting. It's similar to the language used widely in technology and security that was popularised during the launch of the EU General Data Protection Legislation, which talks a lot about having a security by design approach.
Paul Marden: So taking this idea of designing sustainability into every process and trading off the decision making, we've incorporated it into our sales proposal, writing, designing and testing processes. Our people responsible for selling need to bake sustainability into the contract. We want to hold ourselves and our clients accountable for the sometimes difficult decisions around meeting a sustainability target. So we'll discuss that target at the beginning of the project and then hold ourselves to that throughout the design and build process, thereby not needing to do all the remediations that we've just done on the other website, because it's typically much easier, quicker, cheaper for us to implement a lot of those things. The first time through the project, as opposed to as a remediation at the end. We've also baked sustainability testing into our process.
Paul Marden: No site goes live without having been tested by both website carbon and eco grader to make sure that the site meets the criteria that we set out at the beginning of the work. So we've thought a lot about how we can improve what we do and we've started to go back and remediate over some of the work that we've done more recently to make improvements. But my learning journey hasn't been entirely smooth. There are challenges that I've hit along the way. I think there's a few interesting challenges that are to be expected as you're going about learning things that I wanted to share. For example, we've done work to remediate the scores of one of our sites and been super excited with the impact score.
Paul Marden: I mean, went from bottom of the Fs to A+, only to deploy those changes into production and it didn't move the dial at all on the production website. And that was heartbreaking. Once we looked into that in more detail, thinking that we've done loads of changes, move the dial such a dramatic amount, only to launch it into the wild and it barely touched things. What we realised that in the test environment that we used, we had password protection in place and the website carbon and Ecograder were testing the password screen, not the actual homepage underneath it. So there was a lesson learned for us. The other area where we've made lots of learnings is during the survey when we created our sustainability benchmark. We've seen test results so good that they can't be explained. We've seen somebody hitting 100 on Ecograder.
Paul Marden: We've also seen scores that were contradictory on Ecograder and Website Carbon, and also scores that have dropped dramatically. When we first tested in August and did a validation test checked last week, we're still working our way through these wrinkles and I think some of it is because we're looking at many hundreds of websites rather than trying to learn by testing and improving just one site. But beyond the kind of technical challenges, there remain some things that I simply don't understand. And my mission going forward is to fill those gaps. Firstly, while both Ecograder and Website Carbon use the same underlying principles and tools to calculate CO2 emissions, they often can and do give different results.
Paul Marden: Not just in the fact that one is A+, a F score and the other is out of 100, but that the basic page sizing in kilobytes and consequently the CO2 can and often is different depending on which tool you look at. And I don't understand why that is, and I need to look into that. And I'm sure we'll come back to the podcast and talk more about that once I do understand it better. But the other problem is that I'm struggling with the size of the problem and the size of the prize. There's no doubt in my mind that making these improvements is the morally right thing to do, and commercially it's right as well, because it improves your outcomes on the website as well as the sustainability.
Paul Marden: I'm just struggling with the business case, because if I had an unlimited budget, I do make every change in business that improves the sustainability posture of the business. But most marketers, most people that listen to this podcast don't have an infinite budget. They have a very finite budget, and so they have to put their budget to work where it's going to have the most impact. And what's the return on investment of spending 5k on improving the website versus changing light bulbs to leds, or moving away from gas powered water heaters in the outside toilets by the penguins? It's really difficult at the moment for me to be able to understand where this is the right and sensible investment of sustainability funding within an organisation. So I've shared my learning journey over the year. What about you? What can you do next?
Paul Marden: For one last thought, let's head back to the conversation between Kelly and Lucy and Sue from Holkham.
Kelly Molson: Are there any advice that you could share with our listeners in terms of how they start or begin to look at sustainability?
Lucy Downing: Interesting. I was chatting with Lord Leicester yesterday about the subject and were sort of agreeing that I think you definitely need to know where you are, particularly as a business. You know where you are, because then you can set your goals in a realistic fashion. And I think the one thing to remember is that it has to be realistic, because you need to set goals that you can financially deliver, because if they're not financially viable, then you're not going to be here as a business to deliver them. And what we're also finding and talking to other businesses that actually quite a lot of the sustainability gains that you can make are actually in financial ones too, because you probably cut down on some of your resources that you're using, you'll think better, you'll work smarter.
Lucy Downing: So it's just, I think that's something to definitely remember, that it has to be sustainable in all ways, socially, financially and environmentally. That's definitely some key advice. And I think be authentic. There's a lot of talk around greenwashing. Don't be guilty of thinking, wow, this is something we really should do and we're going to do it and just talk about it. It has to be authentic. So really think about where you can make the biggest changes environmentally for sustainability and focus on those and just make sure. Yeah, it's like us really. We're saying we're launching our sustainability strategy, but actually for the past ten years, we've now we've got 100 acre solar farm, we've got anaerobic digester, we heat the hall and all of our businesses with woodchip, so we've got our biomass boilers.
Lucy Downing: So we've been doing it for quite a long time without telling anyone. But what we're now doing is saying, actually, that's not even enough, we need to up it further. So, yeah, that's the thing. I think it just has to be authentic and realistic.
Sue Penlington: Yeah. And from my point of view, I'm a bit of a doer do and not a talker, so don't get bogged down. It could be absolutely overwhelming. And I think when I was first approached by my boss here, I was just like, wow. Because it isn't just rubbish, it's every single business.
Sue Penlington: It's huge. But from my point of view, small differences can make a really big impact and keep chipping away at it because solutions are out there. There's loads of people doing really cool things. And, you know, every night I'm on Google looking up something else or going down another rabbit hole because I've seen something on Twitter. So for me, every day is a school day. But, yeah, get stuck in and collaborate with other like minded people. You know, nowadays you're not considered swampy because you're talking about sustainability.
Sue Penlington: Well, you know, it's totally on brand, isn't it? And let's not reinvent the wheel. If we can learn from other people, then let's do that. I mean, go for it. Literally, every single individual can make a difference.
Kelly Molson: Oh, Sue, that's. Yeah, you've just got me right there, sue. And I think what you said about collaborating and learning from people, that has been something that's so key this year. People are so willing to share their plans, they're so willing to share what they're doing and how they're doing things. Especially within this sector, there's always somebody that's doing or, you know, a couple of steps ahead of you that you can learn from. And people are so willing to kind of give up that advice and their time at the moment as well. So definitely that's a key one for me. Ask people. Ask people for help. Ask people how to do things.
Paul Marden: I'd like to thank everyone that contributed to this episode, including Kelly, Lucy and Sue at Holkham, Polly at TFG and James at aer. Thanks to everyone that's helped me with this journey in the last year, the lovely clients we've talked to, the survey respondents, and my team at Rubber Cheese, Steve, Ben, Tom, Sinead, Wenalyn, and Oz, who've all worked really hard to benchmark the sector and to make continuous improvements to our client's sustainability. As you know, we're really experimenting with the podcast format at the moment, and if you like this or any of the other changes, I'd love to hear. And if you don't, then tough, go make your own podcast. Only joking. I'd love to hear. If you think we can make improvements, you can find me on X, @paulmarden and also on LinkedIn.
Paul Marden: If you're at VAC this week, the Visitor Attraction Conference, then I'll be there with Oz and Andy. So come and say hi to us and I'll see you again in a couple of weeks time.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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Roller Coaster Royalty: The UK Theme Park Awards Unveiled
26 sep· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us.
Show references:
https://ukthemeparkawards.com/winners
https://ukthemeparkawards.com/sponsors
Watch the UK Theme Park Awards 2024 on YouTube.
Interviewed Guests:
Paul Kelly: BALPPA
Neil Poulter: Thorpe Park
Ross Ballinger: Drayton Manor
Danielle Nicholls & Sophie Tickle: Alton Towers
Jennifer Howlett & Charlotte Peirce-Gregory: Legoland

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sineadwaldron/
Sinead Kimberley is the Senior Client Success Manager of Rubber Cheese and has a background in digital marketing, engagement software and all things client satisfaction. She guides clients through the various stages of their project, ensuring they have the information they need when they need it, as well as being the link between our developers and clients.
https://x.com/MrTicketeer
https://www.linkedin.com/in/andypovey/
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.
Paul Marden: Hello and welcome to our first Skip the Queue Season Six Rubber Cheese get together. And we've got a corker. Today, there's four of us virtually together for our meetup after having been together yesterday in real life at the UK Theme Park Awards. So that's what we're going to talk about today.
Paul Marden: We're going to talk a little bit about all the cool stuff that we saw yesterday at Thorpe park and enjoyed those theme park awards. But before we do that, should we do some introductions? Because I think everyone knows me and others, don't they?
Oz Austwick: I'm here again.
Paul Marden: You can sound more pleased. Everyone will love you. I'm thrilled.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely thrilled. I couldn't wish to be anywhere nicer. Back in my office, not surrounded by monkeys.
Paul Marden: We are also joined by Sinead Kimberley, who is the Senior Client Success Manager here at Rubber Cheese. Say hi, Sinead, and tell everyone what you do.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah, so I work with our clients and making sure they've got everything they need for the website and try and act as the voice of the client, essentially with our developers, so that what you ask for, they know how to make it technical. I can pass it back to you and make it all visible on the website and get everything done.
Paul Marden: That you need the glue that binds us together. And today we are also joined by the probably I've got to prove this. I'm going to have to do the counting because I know that other people do count. I'm thinking Dom from Mary Rose for sure counts the number of times he's been there.
Andy Povey: So am I.
Paul Marden: But I think Andy Povey, roaving ticketing expert and gentleman of leisure, joins us today possibly as the most frequent guest on Skip the Queue. But today you get upgraded to co host status because you joined us.
Andy Povey: Well, I feel honoured, Paul. Thank you.
Oz Austwick: Is that actually an upgrade?
Paul Marden: I definitely think co host is an upgrade. For sure. For sure.
Oz Austwick: Speaking of co hosting, I'll just point out that also in this episode we have some interviews recorded at the awards, some with winners, some with prize givers. It'll make more sense in the YouTube version where you can actually see them. But if you're listening to this just as an audio podcast, you need to know that when the room gets noisy or you can hear people screaming in the background, that's a clip from Thorpe Park itself. So that's coming up throughout the podcast today. But as always we start with where we've been recently, other than Thorpe Park.
Paul Marden: Why don't I start with you, Andy, because I know you've been on a few trips just recently with the family. Where's an attraction you've been to recently that sticks in your mind as being pretty cool?
Andy Povey: So most recently was a couple of weekends ago. We took the kids Tower of London on a Sunday afternoon or a sunny Sunday afternoon. It's absolutely superb experience. We've been members of Historic Royal Palaces for six months, eight months, something like that. And it's one of those that just sits in the dusty corner of a drawer somewhere and didn't get used. So we dusted it off and said, "All right, let's go to the tower.". Brilliant experience, absolutely superb. The kids loved it and they really engaged with all of the interpretation there. And it's probably my third or fourth time of taking my ten year old girls there. And there's something new every time or something different every time that we haven't picked up on, we haven't seen so great experience.
Paul Marden: I love it. And I love it going there with membership because I think when you go the first time, you get wowed by all the really big stuff, you know, the shiny jewels and all of that kind of good stuff. By the time you go there second or third time, you begin to notice some of the other stuff. There's some lovely little regimental museums hidden off in the corner. Aren't there lots to find in there? Which if you only go the once and you do it as a set piece, you don't necessarily notice it because you want to go and look at the court stuff.
Andy Povey: Yeah, it's just the single visit. It's just a high pressure environment, isn't it? You want to catch everything, you want to get the best value out of it. I mean, we got there at 02:00 in the afternoon. I don't think I'd have done that if I was just paying for the single day entry.
Paul Marden: What about you, Sinead? Where have you been recently?
Sinead Kimberley: Mine is up north, Wyresdale Park. And it's just an outdoor park, so not kind of a ticket place that you need to kind of buy a ticket for. But I loved it because when went, it felt like we'd just gone into a normal park, but you felt like you were at some kind of holiday camp and you could hear kids playing in the water on the paddle boards and the kayaks and then you had all the dogs running around and then you had the hikers going past you to go up. And we did go for a walk. So went, I think it was maybe two and a half hours up to the peak and it was just lovely to see all the families as well on a sunny day. Rare up in Lancaster. No rain for once.
Sinead Kimberley: And, yeah, it was just a lovely place to be. You had a really nice feel of just people having fun and enjoying nature, which I think is really lovely. So, yeah, that was my favourite recently, besides Thorpe park, obviously.
Paul Marden: Oz, what about you, mate?
Oz Austwick: Goodrich Castle. We took the family away and we did a couple of nights glamping. Amazing place. I won't go on too much about that, but went to Goodrich Castle, just outside Ross on Wye, and it's the first time I've ever been. It's amazing. So many of these castles are just a series of small walls and there's nothing to actually see, but it's a proper castle. There's a moat and a bridge over it to get in, and there are dungeons and towers. You can go up and it's. Yeah, it's fantastic. If you're in the area, definitely go check it out. It's well worth it.
Paul Marden: Lovely for the kids, isn't it? Because I do think, whilst it can be a really lovely day out to go to some of these castle ruins, it can be pretty tough to imagine as a ten year old what it was actually like and what that low wall over there actually was.
Oz Austwick: There's definitely a trade off, though, because the more castle there is, the more the older kids love it. But I've got a four year old as well and I'm much happier when it's a flat bit of grass with a couple of stones in it than when she's trying desperately to scale up a spiral staircase that has been worn down for 500 years.
Paul Marden: We did the wall around Warwick Castle a few years ago and I was at a heightened state of anxiety, I think it's fair to say.
Oz Austwick: Yeah.
Paul Marden: So mine is the National Marine Aquarium, which is one of the Rubber Cheese clients down in Plymouth, and it's my first time of actually going and seeing it. And were there. We were coming back from a holiday in Cornwall, so it was a stop off on the way back and it was such a lovely stop off. My memory of it is we've been. We were avid watchers of the anime show that was on at Christmas last year. We really enjoyed watching that. Millie loves animals and she loved the turtle that was in the show last year. And went and I. We were there. It must have been ten minutes before closing time. They were trying to get people to leave.
Paul Marden: We were one of the last families there, but were just sat on the floor, on the top floor looking into the tank where the turtle was. It was just so relaxing to just watch this turtle coming in and going out and the sharks that were in there. It was a really beautiful place. Lovely place. Really enjoyed that. So going from serene, calm aquarium, let's talk about Thorpe Park and the National Theme Park Awards. How was it for you guys? I hasten to add, I didn't make it Hyperia yesterday, which we did.
Oz Austwick: Notice that Sinead and I did.
Sinead Kimberley: My eyes were closed.
Paul Marden: So what was Hyperia actually like then? Was it, was it as scary as I thought it might be?
Oz Austwick: Yes.
Sinead Kimberley: Yes. But also as incredible. Yeah. I was sad I didn't go on twice.
Oz Austwick: You know, all of those feelings you get when you go on a roller coaster, that kind of the adrenaline and the sense of fear and all of that you get that gives you a bit of a buzz when you get off it. Imagine just dialing all of that up to eleven and. Yeah, mind blowing. It's too far, it's too big, it's too high, too scary. No, I'm glad I did it.
Paul Marden: They did say yesterday, didn't they, when they were talking about the ride itself, that it was the tallest roller coaster in the UK, I think. But also the one with the most weightlessness in the UK, which I can't imagine how you measure it and I can't imagine what it's like. So can you put into words what the weightlessness was like?
Oz Austwick: You know, if they've got these big over the shoulder harnesses that come down and you're in the seat and, you know you're safe, you know you're trapped and you're sitting with all your weight on a seat because that's just how you sit. Right?
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: But for most of this ride, you're not. You're somewhere in between the two. You're not sitting and you're not pushed up against the harness, you're just being flung around constantly.
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah, yeah, it is weird. I think I didn't notice when the harness thing you get is different to the normal one, so you don't have that big thing pushing your shoulders back. It just goes around your waist and then there's like a bar you can hold in front. It is safe, we can confirm because we are here, but it did make you feel like you weren't quite as stuck to something as normal. And then add to that you were moving faster, and you were dropping from higher heights. You realise that you were still falling, which you don't normally do on a roller coaster. Normally you realise you're falling and then you're done, whereas this, you realise you're falling. You start to be like, okay, but I'm still safe. And then you maybe open your eyes and you look around this I couldn't.
Sinead Kimberley: I carried on realising I was falling a lot longer. You really felt it in your body.
Oz Austwick: That first peak where you go and it starts to move, and then it literally, it takes you up and you're lying backwards and you're going up, and you can just about see the track ahead of you up there. And then you get to the top, and it's such a tight curve that as you drop, you can't see the track, and you just drop. Yeah.
Sinead Kimberley: I loved it, though.
Paul Marden: Should we go back to the podcast and move away from therapy session?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, we can come back to therapy later, though, right? Because I think I need it.
Paul Marden: So yesterday was the third year that we've sponsored one of the awards, so it was the third time I've been to the awards. Third time it was in real life, fifth year of running, and it was just lovely, wasn't it? It was such a nice industry get together. I think you were commenting this morning, Andy, on LinkedIn, about the networking effect of it.
Andy Povey: Yeah. The industry we're in is a very physical, actual industry. People go to attractions because they want to do something so well. Virtual is great, and digital is great, obviously. I mean, it's what I've been doing for a very long time. There's nothing that really gets to the heart of what this industry is all about better than the face to face physical interactions. And that was a real sort of epiphany away, I think I said on a message to someone the other day, yesterday, that's just really important. It was the first event I've been to since May. Very good.
Oz Austwick: Good. I thought it was a real eye opener how you kind of going there as an exhibitor. And it was my first time. I kind of assumed that I'd stand next to a stall and people would come over and I'd try and talk to them, and all they'd want was whatever free merch I'd have on this. But it wasn't like that. It was like being in a big room with a bunch of people who were friends and they were happy you were there, too, and it was just a really lovely experience. It didn't feel like a corporate trade show type event, which is exactly what I was expecting.
Paul Marden: And it is fiercely competitive. So everybody does want to win in the categories they're in.
Oz Austwick: Yes. But Alton Towers wins them all.
Paul Marden: Right, so I am here with Sophie and Danielle from Alton Towers. It's been a successful day for you guys, hasn't it? Did you manage to count the number of awards or did you just lose count?
Danielle Nicholls: I think it was a level, maybe round and fair.
Paul Marden: Definitely double figures. Definitely double figures. We saw both of you going up and down the stage. Up and down the stage. Highlight, which was the one for you, Danielle, that you really appreciated.
Danielle Nicholls: You know, what it was between two. So super proud of everything we did with Nemesis. Like Nemesis Reborn has been such a momentous campaign throughout.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Danielle Nicholls: And so I'm super proud of that one. But for me, I think the one that has my heart in, it's our community award. So I was super proud to play silver for that one.
Paul Marden: It was brilliant to get you up on the stage, bring the band back together again with you and Ross up there. And Sophie, what about you? What was the biggest highlight for you?
Sophie Tickle: So I was really keen for the Best Marketing Campaign purely because I know how hard our team works on it. So I was really kind of brutal. And the nemesis story is just incredible. So we felt like that was. That was a really good win for us. And then best ride storytelling is always a nice one just because we feel like it just captures everything. The resources.
Paul Marden: I really enjoyed watching when we had the. ad campaigns that came on and we saw everything that everyone had produced and you could see the storytelling that goes into something like nemesis reborn. And then the room was just quiet at the end of it because were all just captured by all of these videos.
Danielle Nicholls: Everyone could have won that one, genuinely. But we're so proud. Like, Alton is such a lovely, friendly community in itself. Like, there's hundreds of people that work all the towers. Like, you can never just put it down to one person. It's such a big team effort. Everyone pulls together for everything. So, like, Alton After Dark winning golf best of event, that was amazing as well. I'm super proud of that one.
Paul Marden: Everyone loves an after dark event, don't they? Yeah, it's awesome. Awesome.
Danielle Nicholls: They do.
Paul Marden: Thank you for joining me, ladies. It's been really good to talk to you all. Cheers. So, yes, it is fair to say that Alton Towers did make a lot of trips onto the stage. Danielle and her yellow jacket was seen going up on stage quite a lot yesterday. But there's a real diversity of different attractions that were nominated. So I think they said more than 30, nearly 40. I think it was attractions that were nominated. 20 attractions overall. Yeah, 20 attractions overall. One prizes. There was one that was really close to my heart. Brean Theme Park. It was where my granddad and my dad played golf 45 years ago. I would go to Brean Leisure Park, as it was then, and go down helter skelter all the time. So to see that up on the awards for a nomination was really lovely.
Paul Marden: And there's quite a few other smaller attractions like that got nominated. Talk a little bit about the categories or the memories that we got yesterday that stuck in our minds. Andy, was there a category for you that you were really impressed by?
Andy Povey: Yeah, there was. For me, it was the Accessibility initiative the Katapult sponsored. Obviously, Merlin were very heavily represented in the nominations for that category. I think there were five out of the eight nominations were for either for Merlin Parks or things that Merlin were doing as a bigger or as a cross group activity. But there were also some really quite simple things from much smaller parks. So noticeably there was a Camel Creek, again, down in deepest, darkest Cornwall, who were nominated for their changing places facility. And that just really brought home to me. Yes, it's important that Merlin, as the largest operator in the country, are leading the way and they've got the resources to put behind this and all that kind of stuff. But it's not just about doing those big things.
Andy Povey: Small things can make a difference and can make a really significant difference. And that's really key to. Was one of the key messages in the industry, I think.
Paul Marden: Yeah, I thought it was an interesting category. First time that it appeared in the awards, as you say, Katapult sponsored it, and it was quite a nice match between Katapult and that category because they've been doing quite a lot of work in designing spaces and attractions that are more accessible to people. So that was really. It was quite a nice match between sponsor and category. And as you say, there was some really lovely stories to be told around. What was there? I loved there was a Merlin initiative where they were taking the characters and the stories of the parks out to hospitals and places where they were terminally ill children, which there's lots of stories that have existed for a long time of kids being taken to the parks themselves.
Paul Marden: But what about when they can't make it to the park and can you bring the magic of the park to them? I thought that was a really lovely idea.
Andy Povey: Magic tour, they call that. And it's actually run by the Merlin charity, Merlin's Magic Wand.
Paul Marden: Yeah. It's a cracking idea, isn't it? Yeah. But then you take it down to the changing places toilets and the initiatives to make places and make it clear what the accessibility of the place actually is, because we know that's really important, that people that have accessibility needs will not go to new places if they're not completely sure that it is accessible to them. And having a space on your website and winning an award, or even being shortlisted for an award for having that information on your website, I think is amazing. It's a cracking idea and there's so much that the sector is doing that has opened my eyes just in the last year, from the M&H show that were at six months ago to just seeing some of the stuff yesterday, thought it was brilliant.
Oz Austwick: Shall we have another interview from the awards? Paul caught up with another Paul. Paul Kelly from BALPPA.
Paul Marden: So, Paul, you've just come from the first session of giving out awards and you on stage giving out bridge award.
Paul Kelly: I was doing the best theme park for toddlers, both in the small category. And the large category.
Paul Marden: And who was winning?
Paul Kelly: Well, unsurprisingly, I think it's not the first time they've won small categories won by Paulton's Park. And considering the amount of investment they've done, and I'm not surprised, they also won the large as well. So, really good taking off.
Paul Marden: It is, yeah. We were talking on our table that they've been doing this now for a very long time, able to get up on stage and win awards. Still, they must really be investing in what they're doing.
Paul Kelly: Continuous investments. I mean, if you get a chance like I do, look behind the scenes, they're investing infrastructure, their staff, for how they run the park, but think of ten years ahead. So, yeah, incredible family, incredible journey. So, yeah, good luck.
Paul Marden: Behind the scenes, Pickworld must be quite the operation.
Paul Kelly: Yeah. I mean, again, well, one of the things they've done, although it is photographers, they do very well in bandits now, builds them on that because they have invested in trying. I don't think they might be saying, "They do very well in bandits now," builds them on that because they have invested in trying. I don't think they might be saying.
Paul Marden: That it is just about having.
Paul Kelly: Well, but, yeah, paddlings are well deserved.
Paul Marden: Amazing. Well done. Thank you.
Paul Kelly: Yeah, no problem.
Paul Marden: Sinead, what about you? What was the category that jumped out to you?
Sinead Kimberley: Yeah, so for me, I think it was the sustainability, partly because it's something that I am kind of working on, looking at a lot at the minute with clients and also a thing that I've been kind of getting myself up to speed on within the industry, because I think everyone talks about sustainability, but often it will be either a really big initiative or it's something that's just what everybody else is doing. So, you know, more recyclable packaging or that kind of thing. And I really loved. There was a roller coaster, I think it was Greenwoods, was it, Andy?
Andy Povey: Yes.
Sinead Kimberley: They had like a people powered or counterbalanced roller coaster. And I was sat on a table and kind of asked what that was. And the person next to me explained that it doesn't use electricity, it just uses people. So as you're going up, you're powering people, going around the roller coaster, essentially. And it just sounds incredible. I've never heard of anything like that before. And I was also talking to some of the people about the sustainability of a website and something that we don't think about. You think about how many clicks to get tickets sold or to get you to see the video or whatever, but you don't necessarily think about the server powering every single click, empowering every single page view.
Sinead Kimberley: And so to kind of see how different places have worked with sustainability, whether it's the reusable cups or roller coaster that's literally using people to power it and then enjoy it at the same time, was really interesting to kind of complete my picture of what sustainability looks like in the industry and all the different things it could touch on from the website to literally on the park itself. And when the parks are by nature not going to be the most, you know, energy efficient, maybe because you've got these massive roller coasters you need to power safely. It's really interesting to see that the small things, like you mentioned, Andy, with accessibility, the small things really can altogether make a really big impact on how you as an organisation can be more sustainable.
Sinead Kimberley: So, yeah, that was really eye opening, I think, seeing those different nominees.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Oz Austwick: I think the one that won it as well is a lovely example of however much you ask people to do something because it's the right thing to do. If you actually make it in their interests to do it, suddenly it becomes much more viable. So you can. Everyone's got recycling bins, but if you've got this reverse vending machine where you put your empty plastic bottles in and you get something back out of that, then clearly people are going to do. If you were there with your kids, they're going to be collecting bottles they find lying around and making sure they go in the right bin because they get something.
Paul Marden: And it wasn't just a little something, was it? It wasn't just a couple of tokens. You could win some pretty amazing prizes out of it.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely. Yeah.
Andy Povey: Yeah. I was at the Latitude Festival last year and they were charging a temp deposit on every waxed paper cup. And the number of kids running around collecting huge stacks of these cups.
Oz Austwick: Yeah.
Andy Povey: And they were even going into the bins and taking them out of the bins, which I'm not sure was the real driver behind, but they were making. It must have been hundreds of pounds.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely. It was the same. I used to go to the rugby quite a lot before my rugby team disappeared. And they would charge a one pound deposit on plastic reusable cups and you could either keep it as a one pound cup or give it back and get your pound back. And most people just. They'd have a few beers and they'd leave them. But at the end of the match, kids, just like you say, would be running around collecting these and they'd be walking away with 20, 30 quid's worth of cups. You know, what an amazing thing for the kids to do. Just makes it worth their while, doesn't it?
Paul Marden: So I'm here with Jennifer and Charlotte from Legoland. So you've been at the awards today with us. How's it been? Was it a successful day for you guys?
Jennifer Howlett: Pretty successful, yeah. A few wins across the category.
Paul Marden: Yeah. So what. What categories did you. Did you get awards for?
Charlotte Peirce-Gregory: So we've got new band, which I was Ninja tonight, which is really exciting. That was our summer first year.
Jennifer Howlett: We've done it as well. So it's really exciting to see that.
Paul Marden: So I love Ninjago. The ride itself. What's the event all about?
Charlotte Peirce-Gregory: So, literally, we had loads of different things going on. We had dragons, drumsy, we had loads of different entertainments. We had characters, meet and greets, and were new characters, which was really exciting. Aaron and Sora. So, yes, that was great. And that finished quite long ago. Sarah's missing to see that.
Paul Marden: Excellent, excellent and highlight of the day for you guys. What did you see that has really got you excited?
Charlotte Peirce-Gregory: Do you know what, thing is for me with the map? I look after all things catholic events and stuff, and that was quite nice that you see.
Paul Marden: It's funny because everyone was laughing a little bit. I know award for the maps, but actually, the maps and the attraction is so important. It is, it is. If you walk in and you don't get a map, it's like, How do you figure out where you're going, you're always going and looking at the map on the wall instead of having it in your hand. So, yeah, it's a bit of a laugh, but actually I think it's a really important. Yeah. Lovely to meet you guys. Thank you for joining us. Cheers.
Paul Marden: So, Oz, tell us what was the standout moment for you yesterday?
Oz Austwick: I thought it was really lovely to see in amongst all of these theme parks and massive organisations getting up there to win awards, that there was an award specifically for content creator of the year, that these people are out there producing content that literally markets and drives visitors to these attractions to go on these rides and they were actually recognised a change. And I thought that was both a lovely thing as a concept, but also as a YouTuber myself, within a very small and specific niche, it was really nice to get to chat to some other YouTubers from an equally small niche and spend a bit of time with them. I thought it was really. It was lovely. So I just want to shout out to Andy from Coaster Crazy and Digital Daniel, lovely people.
Sinead Kimberley: Thank you, Andy, for helping me on the roller coaster as well. It was needed.
Paul Marden: You were with those influencers, weren't you, during the awards itself? I think. I think it's a bit of a challenge having a daytime awards, that it can be a bit of a struggle to get some life out of the audience. And George, the compare does graft to try and get us into the mood. But I've noticed every year I've been there that if you sit anywhere near the influencers, that's usually the naughty table with lots going on.
Sinead Kimberley: They were very well behaved.
Oz Austwick: Because you were sat with them at the award. We went with them round the park later and it was lovely to see people visiting the park, recognizing them and coming up to say hi and that this is genuinely a thing that really works. Yeah, I just thought it was. It was great. Let's recognize these guys because I doubt any of them are making a full time living out of this. They're doing it in their own time because they love her. So if you're. If you're from a theme park, support them a little bit more, get them in there, let them. Let them do this stuff because it does benefit you.
Paul Marden: You say they're not making a full time living. I can't remember what the couple are, Andy, who have every year at theme park awards, they're never there to collect their award because they're always somewhere in Florida or California, because September is a perfect time for them to go and do all the recordings. I guess parks are a little bit quiet. Weather's still good.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, but that's the thing. Maybe they go in then because it's cheaper.
Paul Marden: Yeah. Still having a good time recording to make a good living.
Oz Austwick: You can make a good living from social media, but it's pretty rare.
Paul Marden: So I am going to claim. Yeah. Executive prerogative and I'm going to take two memories and talk about them.
Oz Austwick: That is definitely cheating.
Paul Marden: So I'm going to talk first about the. The main awards, the best theme park, which, strangely, last year were at Chessington, won by Chessington. This year were at Thorpe park, won by Thorpe park.
Oz Austwick: What are you saying?
Paul Marden: I don't know. I don't know. But what I am. I guess what I am saying was what I really loved was the recognition of the whole thought pop team. Now, it wasn't the whole thought pub team because that would probably be hundreds of people and the stage wouldn't take it, but we had a little kind of troop of different people from across the park come and collect the award and I just. I really liked that. I thought that was a lovely thing to see those people being recognized.
Neil Poulter: And that's exactly. It's a team effort, there's no doubt about it. Obviously, many people in the room, but the people behind the scenes as well. And we've had a fantastic year. It's been a journey. You don't just arrive at winning best theme park and best new attraction. It's a journey that we've been on for the last three and a half years. We haven't previously won that award, so I think it's testament to where we've come from, but hopefully where we're going as well. So, super excited.
Paul Marden: Highlight for you?
Neil Poulter: I think, obviously, Best Theme Park. I think winning the big one is something that, you know, is. Feels like new territory for us, but I think, you know, we deserve our seat at the table.
Neil Poulter: But, you know, across the awards, you know, best new attraction, obviously, for Hyperia is that also some entertainment in terms of stitches and Friday nights, which we're so proud of, you know, a fantastic maze. The team that do our social, which, again, you know, allows us to speak with our audience, our most passionate audience and really, you know, them winning the gold was also a huge highlight for me as well.
Paul Marden: Awesome. So time for some food and then some fun after Hyperia. And here's some screaming.
Neil Poulter: Yeah, absolutely. Can't wait to ride it. I actually wrote it yesterday for about only the 6th time and I went on the back. It was amazing. But, yeah, hoping people that haven't even experienced it yet will get a chance to. And if people have, which I'm sure many have, they will come back and enjoy it. And the sun's shining, so what better time to be at the Thorpe Park?
Paul Marden: So congratulations, Neil. Thank you for talking.
Neil Poulter: Thank you very much. You're welcome.
Paul Marden: But then the other memory for me was our own award. We sponsor the Social Media Content Category and I nearly missed my queue. I was quite happy sitting there listening to all of these parks being nominated, thinking, well, that's interesting. Well, that sounded very good. And then I realized it was me and I was supposed to get on stage and hand the award out, so there's a little rush to the stage. But what I really liked, it was lovely to hand over the gold award to Thorpe Park, meet the social media team there.
Paul Marden: But it was also really nice because it was an opportunity to meet a couple more Skip the Queue alumni, Danielle and Ross, they used to work together at Drayton Manor and as we've already said, Danielle is now at Thorpe Towers and was up and down like a fiddler's elbow on the staircase yesterday.
Oz Austwick: She's a full time award collector.
Paul Marden: But it was lovely to get the band back together again up on stage. Handsome. Some bronze and silver awards out to Ross and Danielle. I really enjoyed that. It was just nice. It's really nice because Kelly first met them at the awards three years ago. Again, she was sat on the naughty table at the back with the two of them making lots of noise and enjoying themselves. But just, we got immediately the sense of enjoyment and fun that the two of them had and that they bring to the work that they do. And it was lovely to see that recognised yesterday on stage because we have nothing to do as sponsors of the award, we have nothing to do with choosing who the winners actually are as a team of esteemed judges. And then the public vote also counted this time.
Paul Marden: But, yeah, to see, to see the growth of people that have been on the podcast, their careers growing, and then seeing them back on stage again yesterday, that was really lovely. I enjoyed that.
Paul Marden: It's a bit weird, isn't it, because the awards are in the daytime, it's. All a little bit where we can. You always come and you bring the energy to the room, don't you? Yes. We got the band back together up on the stage with you and Danielle.
Ross Ballinger: Yeah.
Paul Marden: Both in the social media category. So that was nice. To see what have you got in your hands at the moment?
Ross Ballinger: I've actually just got pleasure Wood Hills award because I'm representing them today as well as part of the luping UK contingency.
Paul Marden: Okay, so what did they win?
Ross Ballinger: They got bronze for Best Theme Park.
Paul Marden: Oh, wow.
Ross Ballinger: Which they have overhauled their map this year, which is really fantastic. So we're getting too excited never to excited about.
Paul Marden: No.
Ross Ballinger: But maps are a great addition to any park.
Paul Marden: Do you know when you walk in the gates and you don't get the map and it's like, oh, people have got it. Yeah. People will complain. Absolutely. And everyone loves a map.
Ross Ballinger: They take a lot of. It's no easy task. They can take six to twelve months to get a really, you know, popping man. Yeah, yeah. And it's obviously all down to the illustrators and everything like that.
Paul Marden: And the life of the park as well, because you're telling stories.
Andy Povey: Oh, yeah.
Ross Ballinger: You've got to bring the paper to life.
Paul Marden: So highlight for today for you.
Ross Ballinger: Highlight, obviously, being on the show, on stage, being on stage for the social media category. Close to my heart, that kind of category. I love socials. I love doing what we do on socials. And it's a big core team for Drayton Manor.
Paul Marden: Is it really?
Ross Ballinger: It's the whole team that really. It doesn't really channel itself into one person. We have a great executive, Morgan McHenry, that looks after the top end of all the social media. So she's the goddess that orchestrates it all. But she will be. She will say that it's not just her, but everyone just contributed to making sure our social media channels are like, just absolutely fantastic and great for people to watch.
Paul Marden: I think they're most authentic, aren't they? When you get everybody involved all across the park, all the people telling their little stories and showcasing what party's like.
Ross Ballinger: That's what it's all about. A lot of other departments do their job. They think they're just having fun on TikTok again. But we're not, you know, we're really like behind the scenes thinking of content, going out, filming the content, you know, putting the content together, scheduling it to go out.
Paul Marden: It doesn't just happen by itself.
Ross Ballinger: It doesn't happen.
Paul Marden: You don't just walk out with a phone and get yourself a smash hit video that just goes viral.
Ross Ballinger: Well, the more fun we have, the more engaging it is. So it's our job to be fun. You have fun.
Paul Marden: It's a tough life. Right. Lovely. See you again. Bringing the alumni back together again.
Ross Ballinger: Great. Thank you. Thank you.
Paul Marden: So that was the UK theme park awards yesterday, but that's not the only thing happening in the industry at the moment, is it, Andy? Something big and important is happening next week.
Andy Povey: You mean my trip to Amsterdam?
Paul Marden: Well, I was thinking more about the IAAPA conference that was at Amsterdam as opposed to your particular trip to the.
Andy Povey: Yeah, so it's the 20th 30th instance of the IAAPA Europe show, IAAPA Europe Expo, this time taking place in the RAI at Amsterdam, or in Amsterdam from Tuesday to Thursday next week. Lots of great stuff, lots of great people. All about the attractions industry. There might be an occasional beer or two while we're there on the short.
Paul Marden: I think it is important to note for Mrs. Povey, if she actually does listen in, that this is an important work event and there will be lots of networking. And if you're not networking, you're not working. We know that. However, it is also worth mentioning that on numerous occasions yesterday I heard you talking to people about the after parties that you were planning to attend. And yeah, it's a busy social calendar that you've got signed up to next week.
Andy Povey: It certainly is. I think I might need to cut down on the pre party work to give time for the after party to take the best.
Paul Marden: So you're going to enjoy yourself and do lots of important networking next week. But I guess the call to action for listeners today is if you are planning on being at IAAPA next week, hunt down Andy. He's a tough guy to miss and everybody knows him. So go and find him, have a chat with him and enjoy yourselves in IAAPA and we will be back in two weeks time. Thank you very much guys. It's been delightful having a foursome as co hosts and I think we get to do this again.
Oz Austwick: I quite like this. We should do this more often.
Paul Marden: Absolutely.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Viral Monkeys and Marketing Magic - A recipe for social media success
11 sep· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Competition ends on 25th September 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://www.monkey-forest.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-torlop-261a10119/
Josh is a passionate marketer and PR professional currently working at Trentham Monkey Forest in Staffordshire. As the sole member of the Marketing & PR team, he manages, oversees, and delivers all communication strategies for one of the UK’s most fascinating woodlands. This unique role requires him to wear many hats, as he strives to create best-in-class campaigns across multiple fronts.
Trentham Monkey Forest is unlike any other place in the UK. It's a 60-acre woodland where 140 Barbary macaques live freely, mirroring their natural habitat. This distinct feature is the heart of the attraction, and Josh is driven to share this "sparkle" with as many people as possible, all while working within a modest budget. A visit to the forest, which Josh first experienced with his aunt in 2007 as a child, left a lasting impression on him. Now, he aims to ensure that visitors create similarly special and lasting memories at this remarkable destination, all for an affordable entry fee—an essential element of his marketing strategy.
In 2024, Monkey Forest reached a record-breaking year for footfall, and as the year draws to a close, Josh has been collaborating with Oz on creating 'out of the box' campaigns that break the 'fourth wall' between the brand and the consumer. Reflecting on a PR stunt he strategized and executed in 2022, which went globally viral and reached hundreds of millions worldwide, Josh considers it a personal career highlight. His enthusiasm for being a one-man marketing team at such a unique destination continues to fuel his innovative and ambitious approach.
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. So welcome to Season 6.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, welcome back.
Paul Marden: How are we back already? Because it feels like only yesterday were recording the tail end of season five. So where's my summer break? It just seems to have gone.
Oz Austwick: It does seem a little bit like we've not really had much time off. We must have. Must have had a bit of a break.
Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely. Because I've got a list. As long as you are, of all the places that I've been over the summer holidays, where have you been?
Oz Austwick: Like you? Lots of places. Lots of castles, a few stately homes and one or two more unusual places. But I think if I had to pick one, I went to Highclere.
Oz Austwick: Okay. I love it. I'm a massive Downton Abbey fan. I tried so hard not to like Downton Abbey and just utterly failed and got sucked into this wonderful world of 1920s stately home. The lives going on upstairs and down. And you know what? It's just such a good series and to go and experience the place and see all these wonderful familiar areas with my 15 year old daughter, who is even more of a fan than me, was just amazing.
Paul Marden: Brilliant.
Oz Austwick: We might just have been blaring theme music out of the car on the way down the drive. How about you?
Paul Marden: So where have I been? We went to We The Curious back in Bristol, which has just reopened after two years of being closed. And that was just amazing. I took my daughter there with two of her friends and we had a whale of time wandering around there. We've been to the Roman Baths down in Bath. That was quite fun. That was a very hot day, but we had a lovely time just wandering around in the baths. We really enjoyed that. The one standout thing that I did that does not come around very often, where it comes around once every four years. We went to the Olympics, so went and experienced handball of all games. Never watched a handball game in my life, but it was amazing. It was just so much fun.
Oz Austwick: I don't think I know anything about handball.
Paul Marden: Well, I was expecting something a bit like basketball or netball. No, not at all. No. This was full on contact sport. It's like rugby, but inside and throwing people around. It was awesome. It was so fast paced. We saw it was France v Germany, so it was absolutely stacked in the stadium. But they captured the spirit of London 2012. It felt just like the part, the atmosphere that we felt when went to the main stadium, the athletic stadium during 2012 but with a french twist.
Oz Austwick: Not your first Olympics, then?
Paul Marden: No, not my first. But I didn't see Usain Bolt this time. I did see him 2012. He was only about a spec on the other side of the stadium at the time, but no, we had a great time and there was just so much about the way that they organised it. It's a feat of human engineering, isn't it, to put that on for two weeks stint. But they organised it so well and yeah, it was thoroughly enjoyable.
Oz Austwick: So, speaking of events, we're going to one pretty soon, aren't we? I mean, it's not quite on the scale of the Olympics, but it's going to be glorious all the same.
Paul Marden: Yes. So this will be my third National Theme Park Awards. I promise this year not to scream quite so loudly if I actually go one of the roller coasters whilst we're there.
Oz Austwick: Well, I'm going with you, so I will record it.
Paul Marden: I promise you. I screamed like a marine last year.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. So we'll be there. We're there officially as Rubber Cheese, aren't we? So, yes, if you're there, come over and say hi, we've got a stall, I think a stand and we might have some freebies. We'll definitely have some chocolates because it's a good excuse to have some chocolates. So come and find us and have some chocolates with us.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. But, you know, it's an in real life experience, so come over and talk to us, give us your ideas. What can we do this season and what would you like us to talk about? Can we come to see ewing at your theme park?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, because we're doing a bit of that this season, aren't we? We've got a few lined up.
Paul Marden: We do. We do. It was something that you said last at the end of Season 5 that you wanted to do differently, that we work in this attraction sector which is all about going and doing experiences and we spend the whole of the podcast sat in a square room with nothing much going on and without actually meeting people in real life. And wouldn't it be wonderful if we could actually record in real life with people?
Oz Austwick: It's crazy not to. We're talking to people at these amazing places and I just get to sit in my own dodgy little converted office. But not this time. No. So you met a chap a little while ago at a conference, didn't you?
Paul Marden: Yeah, I met Josh from Trentham Monkey Forest, and he was presenting. I think if I'm right in saying this, it was the first time h. e's done a presentation at conference before, but I was blown away by him and his presentation, and he's a one man marketing machine for Trentham from his own slide. He tells this story about being the CMO and the social media executive and the website editor and all of these different hats that. That you have to wear when you're running marquee in a small business. That's Josh, and I just loved it. And I was really impressed with the way he was talking about the outcomes of what he had achieved as a result of the work that he was doing. It wasn't just about the activities that he was doing.
Paul Marden: It was what difference that made to the organization as a result of him doing it, which I found really impressive. So I really wanted him on the podcast, and I jumped on a call with him and. And his first idea was, why don't you come and record it in the Monkey Forest? So here we are at the start of Season 6, and you've had a chance to go up there, haven't you?
Oz Austwick: Yeah. I mean, it is a little ironic that my favorite podcast. Sorry, my second favourite podcast, because obviously this is my favourite. My second favourite podcast is the Infinite Monkey Cage. So to get to go and record in what is essentially a cage with monkeys in itheme seemed like way too good an opportunity to pass up on. It was an amazing day. I try not to say too much about it because we've got the whole interview to come.
Paul Marden: Absolutely. But I'm assuming that everything went slickly and it was a well oiled machine and it's got the same production values as we would normally expect.
Oz Austwick: No, not at all. I mean, I realised that there was potentially an issue when we. I got there and I found the place really easily. It was great. It was nicely signposted. I found the right place. The people in the car parks were hugely helpful. They sent me there. I parked up, a lovely lady took me to Josh. We got all the gear. We walked quite a long way into a forest full of monkeys, and then I realised I didn't have a camera with me. And of course, it's not an easy thing to go because we couldn't just leave all the gear with the monkeys and both walk back. But because I wasn't wearing official Trentham Monkey Forest clothing, they didn't want people to see me walking around in the woods off the path. So it became quite.
Oz Austwick: So we figured it out, got the camera, got back, started setting everything up, and of course, because we're not sitting at desks I've got a lovely microphone that I wanted to put out in front of us, but you can't string a cable across a large open area where there are monkeys.
Paul Marden: Health and safety issues with monkeys.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, well, absolutely. The fact is, I mean, we could have done it, but the monkeys would have probably just taken the microphone away. So there is, if I'm being honest, a little bit of wind noise because the microphone's slightly further from us than I hoped it would be. I've got Josh miked up, so it's only me that you struggle to hear. But that being said, I mean, what an amazing experience if you haven't been to Trentham Monkey Forest, go. We've talked about this a little before, but there's this kind of period, 100, 120 years ago when all of the great historic homes, these are amazing estates, suddenly started having to find other ways of making money. And you can look around and some of them have survived and some of them haven't. Some of them have just gone completely.
Oz Austwick: Some were turned into flats and one was turned into a monkey forest, which just feels a little bit random. But, yeah, I mean, Josh is a really smart guy, very switched on, very articulate and very knowledgeable, and he's got his own monkey army. So.
Paul Marden: I've got nothing to say to that other than we desperately got to listen to the rest of this interview. It's going to be so interesting.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, well, absolutely. But before we do, if you're listening and you have a thing going on and you'd like us to come and be part of it and record there, please do get in touch and let us know if you're doing something interesting in the visitor attraction sector. We'd love to talk to you. Or if there's just a pressing issue that you think isn't getting the exposure that it should be, then, yeah, let us know, because this isn't really about us, it's about the sector. And if we can help, then that would be amazing.
Paul Marden: Yeah. So we've got lined up for this season. We're going to do some in real life at conferences. So we're going to go to ASDC conference and do some in real life interviews there. We've been invited to some attractions already. So, you know, if you've got a conference and you'd love us to come along and do something in real life for the podcast, let us know if you'd like us to come to your attraction because you're running an event for Halloween or Christmas or whatever it is then let us know. We will chuckle the gear in the back of a car. We promise we will better prepared if we meet monkeys again. Can't promise that we'll better prepared for other animals or small children or whatever, but, you know, we'll do our best.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, I mean, I'd be hesitant and promising I'd be more prepared, to be honest with you, but, you know, we'll do our best and we'll come up.
Oz Austwick: With something on at the end of it, I'm sure.
Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. So, without any further ado, shall we get on to listening to the interview that you did with. With Josh athlete at Trenton Monkey forest?
Oz Austwick: So welcome, Josh. Thanks very much for joining us. Regular listeners will probably be aware of a bit of wind noise on this one because for the first time, we're recording on location in a monkey forest.
Josh Torlop: Yeah, it's the first time for me to be honest, because I'm just looking across our forest here and we've got three or four monkeys surrounding us.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, I must admit it's a little bit odd, if I'm being honest. I'm used to sitting in an office, at a desk, and today I'm leaning on a tree surrounded by monkeys.
Josh Torlop: It's giving me a little bit of power here. I'm not the host and I'm making you feel uncomfortable with these monkeys around us, but no, yeah, we're perfectly fine. The monkeys have their natural weariness intact of humans, so they won't bother us too much. They will simply live their monkey life around us.
Oz Austwick: If you're listening to this on Spotify or through iTunes or anything like that, then please check out the YouTube video and you'll be able to see some of the monkeys that are currently watching us. So, as always, we tend to start with a couple of icebreaker questions. And now we're in Season 6, that's not going to change anytime soon. So I've got a couple of kind off the wall questions for you.
Josh Torlop: Oh, here we go.
Oz Austwick: What's the biggest animal that you think you could carry up a flight of stairs?
Josh Torlop: Oh, that's a good question. So, when I was younger, I had a Labrador called Tommy who had a bit of a gut.
Oz Austwick: Okay.
Josh Torlop: So I'd say I'd carry Tommy, and that might be a very boring answer, but he could eat anything. We had two labradors, one called Blake and one called Tommy. And Tommy used to finish his food and eat Blake's food, so I would say Tommy.
Oz Austwick: Okay, cool. Yeah, I reckon. I think you could carry a labrador. The next one is what film should be remade by the Muppets.
Josh Torlop: Oh, that's an interesting one, isn't it?
Oz Austwick: Yeah.
Josh Torlop: The Wolf of Wall Street. I'd love to see Kim the frog take on Wall street. How good would that be?
Oz Austwick: That would be amazing.
Josh Torlop: Yeah, that would be perfect. Because Margot Robbie's blonde. Miss Piggy was blonde. Not to say that Margot Robbie looks at all like Miss Piggy, but that's. Yeah, that'd work.
Oz Austwick: I doubt she's a listener, if I can. So one of the things I really want to talk to you about, other than that this venue, which is quite unique, at least in the UK, is the challenges of being a one man marketing team.
Oz Austwick: Let's start off. Just tell me a little bit about the monkey forest and how it became a thing.
Josh Torlop: Yeah, certainly. So, Trentham Monkey Forest is one of four parks protecting Barbary macaques. That is a highly endangered species of primate. So there's less than 8000 in the wild. So we have two parks in France, one in Germany and one here in Staffordshire. Stokend Trentham Monkey Forest. And it started all the way back in 1969 in Kinzheim in the Alsace region. Listeners might remember Beauty and the Beast. That's where the town was famously sort of depicted. Oh, yeah, there we go. Yeah. Back to the Muppets. Well, yeah. But in terms of our journey, if you will, it was two french chaps, one called Jack Trinau and one called Gilbert de turquine, that basically sought this mission to protect this incredible species, monkey called Barbary macaques.
Josh Torlop: So they wanted to create this fantastic concept where around 100 monkeys, 100 to 150, could simply be themselves in a forest completely, no interference from humans, in a way where it would be able to preserve the natural behaviours in order to facilitate possible reintroduction.
Oz Austwick: Okay.
Josh Torlop: So it was an incredible forward thinking concept. And you fast forward 40 years, they had to basically have to open two parks, another one in France in Rocamadour, and then another one in Germany in the sort of Lake Constance area, basically, because they sort of made the mistakes before us, basically. So they realised that once you have a lot of monkeys in a forest living how they would. They'd mate and they'd make. You'd end up with more monkeys. So they had to open more parks came this incredible conservation project for this one species, which makes us incredibly different, because their passion was engaging people with this primate in particular, by letting visitors to the area marvel at the incredible behaviours right in front of them from 2 meters away.
Josh Torlop: But also, the monkeys having this, you know, this separation between human and primate, so their natural behaviours weren't deteriorated. So it was an incredible concept that here we are, 2005, we'll say we opened in Trentham, Stoke, and here we are, 2024, 19 years later, thriving, surviving, and I'm doing the marketing for it, which is incredible.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely. So how do you end up as the marketing and pr manager of a monkey forest?
Josh Torlop: So what you do is the year was, what, 2021? And I was looking for a role in marketing and I was scrolling through LinkedIn and Indeed, as you do when you're searching for a job. And I saw an advertisement for a marketing and PR officer at Trentham Monkey Forest. And it brought me back to when I was seven years old, my auntie and my mum coming to visit Monkey Forest for the first time and being absolutely amazed at the fact that there was a primate right in front of me, acting as if I wasn't there and it was just being a monkey, I thought it was magnificent. And that visit always stuck with me. And for me, as a visitor attraction, I always talk about, now I'm marketing at a visitor attraction. Is the sparkle what excites your visitors to come to you?
Josh Torlop: And that is it. That moment of thinking, wow, that's incredible, there's a monkey right there acting exactly how it would in the wild. That's always stuck with me. And that inspired me to apply for that role because I wanted to share that sort of memory maker with thousands of people to visit the park and have that same experience. And thankfully, we're doing that quite well. We're hitting all the right noises on TikTok.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely, yeah, you're doing a great job. Does it ever get normal? Because I have to say, it's really weird to be stood here in a perfectly normal british bit of woodland. And, yeah, there are monkeys.
Josh Torlop: Well, if you look to your left, you'll see a statue of a man in the distance. So that man is the Duke of Sutherland. He once owned this land, a bit like lion king, you know, everywhere the light touches, I own. Basically, in the victorian times, he owned the Trentham estate. So everywhere we're looking now, that was Duke Sutherland's land. And people of that time actually enjoyed this forest for leisure. So not much has really changed because people still enjoy it. It's just there's monkeys here, which I love to imagine if we just brought him back for just a day and I would be like, what do you think of this use for your land, mister Duke, Sir Duke?
Oz Austwick: I think it's fascinating. And one of the things that we see a lot, because we talk to and work with a lot of old historic estates and the kind of, I guess maybe 100 years ago or so, there was a real issue where they had to suddenly start doing something to survive. They couldn't just have the land and keep it, they had to actually make some use of it or lose it. And it's really interesting how some places in their safari parks or golf courses or hotels and spas, and there we have a load of monkeys.
Josh Torlop: Yeah, I mean, 60 acres, about the equivalent of 40 football pitches. For any football fans listening, that's a lot of space. And the visitors see a very small proportion of that, which is nice in a way. I'd love for visitors to see all our forest, but for the monkeys, they have such a huge, vast amount of forest space to live exactly how they would in the wild, to a point. That's incredible. So we invited last year, for example, a David Attenborough producer called Rosie Thomas to do a members evening. We obviously have members, and she had literally just been filming in the Algeria, Morocco, a region where these monkeys are native to.
Josh Torlop: And she was absolutely bowled over by the fact that it was bringing her back to filming with David Attenborough, which was crazy to think, but so rewarding, in a sense, for us, as an organisation, to think we're doing the right things. And, yeah, that was probably a moment where I thought, wow. Well, I always think, wow. But that, for me, sums up Monkey Forest. To see that a David Attenborough producer could be amazed, and the environment.
Oz Austwick: So, yeah, so how do you market it?
Josh Torlop: How do I market it?
Oz Austwick: It's not like there's a playbook that already.
Josh Torlop: That's probably the beauty of it. But is there a playbook for marketing? I mean, TikTok, I feel like if you ever see the Royal Society Protection of Birds, RSPB, they're amazing. They are so hilarious with TikTok. But for us, I think we stick to our unique. Oh, gosh, USP Unique Selling Point of, you walk amongst the monkeys. We have a little bit of fun with it, but also, we know our audience quite well, in a sense, that we know which channels suit certain content types. Pr. We do a lot of story pushing, storytelling features, like a huge part of our marketing activity. We tend to go viral quite often with user generated content.
Josh Torlop: So we try and, you know, push that to make sure that visitors want to take a TikTok here, get excited about that, because it could go viral, it could blow up. Anyone can make content nowadays, so we tap into that. But, yeah, I think the key in everything is knowing your audience, knowing what we are and what we do best, which is the walking amongst the monkeys and the conservation behind it. And also being organic. I think I'm being authentic. I think some brands tend to forget that their audiences are human and they don't want to be sold to. They want to see organic content, digest it, consume it, otherwise they're going to swipe up or they're going to swipe across.
Josh Torlop: So for us, it's all about having that tongue in cheek element, hitting all noises, having those serious conservation messaging, whether it's a blog or whatever, but marrying that up with some funny content. I mean, do you remember the Aurora, the Northern Lights? One silly thing I did on social media was I superimposed a monkey, transparent monkey in the sky here, and we said, "Oh, the Aurora looked a bit different and still contract", and that got a bit of traction. But, yeah, things like that, you know, showing a bit of personality. I mean, Ryanair do it, a lot of brands are starting to do it now. Curries. I find them hilarious when they chuck a chicken into a air fryer, like from a viral meme video. I don't know if you've seen, Oz, but that's hilarious. Yeah, that's brilliant.
Oz Austwick: I mean, there are some companies that are really smashing social media. I'm a huge fan of Gregg's social media. And there's one of the big London department stores that does a world famous Christmas display in their windows every year. And there's a Gregg's opposite the road, opposite them, on the other side of the road. And they literally, they reversed their sign so that every time somebody took a picture of the Christmas display, it said Gregg's.
Josh Torlop: Oh, brilliant.
Oz Austwick: What a fantastic thing.
Josh Torlop: You're making me hungry for a cheese and onion pasta. I love it. Gregg's. There is a drive through one in Stoke by Trent Bale.
Oz Austwick: I might check that out.
Josh Torlop: For me, I think TikTok in particular, I think every marketer's worked out that each post you do on TikTok you're following is the lowest percentage of who will see that. So it's always a new audience for every post that you do on TikTok. So for us coming in three years ago, we didn't have a TikTok, which I found incredible. We should have TikTok was my answer in my job interview, and that's probably what landed me the job because, you know, three years on we've got 12.7 thousand followers, which is quite a good growth.
Josh Torlop: I'm always my biggest critic, so I'd want more, but I think every marketer or PR would say that. But in terms of the TikTok content that we put out is just making sure that we're doing it on a consistent basis, because we know that organic nature of the organic post, reaching a new audience each time, that's probably not going to be there forever. So it's sort of using that now to our advantage because, say, if we do ten posts a week and yeah, all those ten posts didn't get a million views, but if each one of those got a thousand views, that's 10,000 people that wouldn't have seen our content. And also that our unique element will be embedded in that content, or it'll be me in a monkey costume dancing to It's Raining Men. That wasn't me, by the way.
Josh Torlop: I've just, I'm just like, that slipper wasn't me. Lots of fun.
Oz Austwick: I'll see if I can get a link for that and pop it in the show notes. I mean, I think it's really interesting that social media kind of gives us this really odd view when it comes to numbers. And you say you've got what, say, twelve and a half thousand followers.
Josh Torlop: Yeah, I think it's 12.7 now. 12.7 thousand.
Oz Austwick: And those people who are really into social media will look at that and think, oh, that's not very many.
Josh Torlop: No.
Oz Austwick: But put them all in a room.
Josh Torlop: Well, that's quite an awful lot for a small organisation. But also zero pounds spent.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely.
Oz Austwick: If you got twelve and a half thousand people through the gates, that wouldn't come through the gates otherwise, then that's a massive step.
Josh Torlop: Yeah. Well, absolutely. I think for us, we have a quite high awareness campaign yearly campaign. We just want to drive awareness to us. Because I live and die by you put this in front of eyes. Feet are going to certainly follow because of how incredible it is. So that's what molds our strategy. But that's obviously one small element is social media. I mean, we did a PR stunt in 2022 that went globally viral. It reached 900 million people. So we're talking about 12.7 thousand not being the biggest, but that's huge. Yeah. James Corden was talking about little old Trent and monkey forest a few years ago. Because you'll love this, we hired a Marvin Gaye impersonator to serenade our monkeys, saying, "Let's get it on."
Oz Austwick: I saw.
Josh Torlop: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: And that was a Valentine's Day thing.
Josh Torlop: It was a Valentine's Day PR stunt, yeah. And it went absolutely viral. I dine out on it every week now at dinner, because I don't think I'm ever going to live that down.
Oz Austwick: So, I mean, did it work? Do you have baby monkeys now?
Josh Torlop: We had twelve that year, I believe. I think twelve. So.
Oz Austwick: So, from a conservation point of view, getting Marvin Gaye involved was a good move.
Josh Torlop: Well, that's it, yeah. We aim between six and seven babies, so if we have twelve that year, then it's work.
Oz Austwick: I'm impressed.
Josh Torlop: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: So what are some of the challenges? Because obviously it's just you that does all of this and I've worked in house as a marketer and you've got to do everything, which inevitably means that you've just got to decide which bits you're going to do and which bits you're not.
Oz Austwick: How's that work in the visitor attraction industry?
Josh Torlop: For me, I hate the saying jack of all trades. I prefer swiss army knife because each part of a swift army knife is very useful and that's each part of the communication strategy f For me, every bit of it is vital for the success of your marketing and pr strategy. And one of the challenges is, obviously, managing time. Not to be boring, but it is. For example, this morning I've had a BBC radio stoke interview come straight speak to you. But, yeah, it's a case of making sure that you don't bite off more than you can chew, not having a skatcon approach, having quite a strategic straight line, knowing what you wanted to achieve. or me. Every bit of it is vital for the success of your marketing and pr strategy. So, yeah, that feeds into our strategy, really.
Josh Torlop: It's not biting off more than we can chew, but also being as impactful as we can with the resource given. So I take all the photography that many people probably don't know, and Monkey Forest, we don't outsource photography, I take it. So I feel like, yes, it can be taxing having just one person to do all these roles, but then ensures consistency, because if it's wrong, it's the wrong consistency. But I like to think I'm doing quite well here. So in terms of what we're doing and what we're putting out, it's all consistent, we're brand cohesive because we haven't got a lot of chefs in the room giving off opinions, which can be good, can be useful, but still, I think that's why we get stuff done quite quickly.
Josh Torlop: Say, if I want bit of content, I take my camera in and get the content, whatever it needs to be. But I do say, "Oh, yeah, it's a marketing team of one", but I have a great support network around me. For example, the director, Mark, best boss you'll ever work for. He is such a good guy and he trusts me to execute the pr and marketing strategy well. And then we've got Lisa, the part manager, who helps me a lot as well with radio interviews. They're all superb in front of the camera. Not a lot of people would say that, but media training wise, everyone is fantastic here in front of media, which is great. So everyone was willing to muck in.
Josh Torlop: The Marvin Gaye PR event, for example, that was a roaring success because the guides were on board, they knew what, even though it sounded ridiculous. And all of our guides have science based, of course, being Barbary macaque experts. And they thought, what the earth is Josh playing at here? They saw the impact of raising the profile of the endangered species and they were really with me on that. But that was because we did a team brief. We explained the strategy behind it, what we wanted to achieve. The reason I actually said, the reason why I like to do this high awareness campaign is because I go into the pub with my mates to celebrate getting this job and I'm from a little town called Norfolk in Cheshire, which is probably on the sort of cross county border of Staffordshire.
Josh Torlop: And I said, "Oh, I've got a job at transome monkey forest." And they went, "Oh, part of my transom gardens." " No", that's not the case. So we didn't have that profile in place. That was only the people that knew about us, by the way. So half the table didn't even know what Transponkey forest was, which I found baffling 20 minutes up the road.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely. So, yeah, so, I mean, you get quite a lot of user generated content, your social media, obviously full of monkeys, but most people's isn't. So when they come, it's quite special being to put that out. But you mentioned earlier when were chatting about the fact that your most recent success has been TripAdvisor.
Josh Torlop: Yeah, it's quite the timing, to be fair. So we've gone viral again this week because someone did a review on Tripadvisor and this sums up our marketing strategy to a team because obviously we try and be as lighthearted as possible and resonate with our audiences. So someone did a review about Monkey Forest and they were upset that we had monkeys. So, yeah, primarily it was monkeys. So we responded. I respond to every review because I find the feedback so useful, because we have the luxury that a lot of businesses who are listening or people are from organisations going to be jealous of this. We're closed over winter, so November to February. We have a strategic analysis of the business for me as well, marketing activity. I do all my strategy over winter, implement it spring and summer.
Josh Torlop: So anyway, we love our feedback, we love receiving the feedback. And this week, it's the first time in nearly four years where I've been stumped for words. I didn't know what to say to this person because we have got monkeys. So our response went viral. We said something along the lines of, "Yes, we're a monkey forest. So primarily there are monkeys. Sorry, don't know how to answer this."
Oz Austwick: It just leaves me wondering how they found you.
Josh Torlop: Yeah, because if you.
Oz Austwick: Our SEO must be formed pictures of monkey and the website site is covered in pictures of monkeys and it's called monkey forest.
Josh Torlop: Can't please everyone. Right. I'm not sure, to be fair, I'd love for him to reach out because, yeah, it has gone viral. I feel bad for the chap who's done the review because he must be a bit upset with all the attention he's got from a review because he's a paying visitor at the end of the day and he probably had a great time, but.
Oz Austwick: You'd hope so, but not if you don't like monkeys, I guess.
Josh Torlop: Yeah. So. But, yeah, it was in the mail, the Daily Mail, the Daily Mirror, all the national news pretty much this week. So it kept me on my toes and busy. And that's when it's hard as a team of one, is to manage things that go viral.
Oz Austwick: I guess at that point you're getting a lot of people trying to contact you and get comments from you for their articles. So what they're putting out is a little bit different.
Josh Torlop: Well, no, to be fair, everything's been consistent so far, but it is a lot of marketing, and PR is controlling narratives and making sure that the content or whatever's being put out is in line with what you're trying to achieve. And obviously PR has that challenge and I like to think that PR is sort of my bag. So I love to do PR. It's something that I've always been interested in. I did a journalism degree at university, so I love the PR element of the job and storytelling. So from that, I'm sure fellow PRs that are listening will understand. When something goes viral, it's a little dreaded demon in the back of your mind where you're like, "Oh, God, it's gone viral."
Oz Austwick: It's probably good.
Josh Torlop: Probably good. But I've got a lot of answers to come up with. But, yeah, it's great for the business and we're a lovely bunch here. So if anyone does something great, people do tell you, and it's really nice, and it's such a wonderful place to work. Even the head guides, they have a bit of bands with me. I like to call them Anton Deck, the two head guides. So it's Aliya, the Venice, and it's daydream. 20 years. Well, 19 years, but yeah. So Aliyah gave me a lot of banter. Scene. What has he done now? He's made it busy for bank holiday. We're gonna be knackered. But, yeah, it's all good fun. It's all good banter.
Oz Austwick: So what's next? Where do we go at Trentham Monkey Forest? What's the future look like?
Josh Torlop: I want to do another Valentine's Day PR stunts. I want to do Netflix and chill, so I want to set up play screen for the monkeys. May play a bit of Titanic or love, actually. But, yeah, I just want to carry on going, getting as much awareness of the park as possible, hitting the right noises, bringing a load of visitors in who have a great time and do more things like this, because this is brilliant and I've really appreciated you coming in, having a chat.
Oz Austwick: It's a joy. It feels a little bit like it's not work. I'm feeling very lucky today, so thank you very much for having me.
Josh Torlop: Thank you. I think I've bored the monkeys because they've all gone. They've all legged it.
Oz Austwick: I am wondering where they've gone. Before we wrap it up, we try and finish every episode with a book recommendation.
Josh Torlop: Brilliant. I think I need to be on brand here, even though there are monkeys here and they're not apes, but I'm gonna recommend the Chimp Paradox. Can't remember who it's by, but it's a great book. It's all about controlling your inner chimp as a human and controlling your emotions and making sure you don't react emotionally too much to things. Because I like to think I wear my heart on my sleeve and it's good to make sure that you're keeping control of your emotions and making sure that you know, if anything happens, you're doing a great job, everything's going well in life. Chill out. And not being too hard on yourself.
Oz Austwick: Amazing. Well, if you'd like a copy, head over to X and retweet us and say that you would like Josh's book.
Josh Torlop: I didn't write it. Josh's book. Josh's book.
Oz Austwick: We call it Josh's book. Yeah. Thanks so much. I really appreciate having you on board. And for letting me come and hang out with your monkeys.
Josh Torlop: There you go. Thanks very much. Appreciate you coming down.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Show references:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephenpriestnall/
https://linktr.ee/oomphinc
Stephen Priestnall founded oomph, now an accredited B Corp, in 2005, acquired Decision Juice in 2009 and is globally recognised as a specialist in CX driven transformation projects and digital innovation. He has advised at a senior level across public and private sector organisations in the UK, Americas, Asia and the Middle East and is an instigator of international research studies into behaviour change. He is a Board Trustee with Aneurin Leisure Trust, advising on CX and communications strategy and a founding Director at Wellbeing Economy Cymru, part of the global Wellbeing Economy Alliance, advocating for a new approach to economic sustainability for people and planet.
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Mister attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. On today's episode, I speak to Stephen Priestnall, the CEO of oomph, a CX focused agency based in the UK and UAE who help clients to understand people and design better experiences. We're going to go back to first principles and understand what customer experience is all about and understand what attractions can do better to serve the needs of their customers.
Paul Marden: Hello, Oz.
Oz Austwick: Hi, Paul. So this is the last episode of Season 5, right?
Paul Marden: Yes, that is right. Can you believe after we took the reigns from. From young Ms. Molson not too long ago, that we would actually make it to the end of the season?
Oz Austwick: Do you know, it's crazy, isn't it? I mean, five seasons of a podcast. Most podcasts don't get through to the end of one season. And I can remember listening to this podcast years ago and actually sending people links as an example of what a good podcast is. And now here we are, you and I, at the end of Season 5. It's crazy..
Paul Marden: Yay. Guardians of this little baby.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. Yeah, no pressure. So today's quite an interesting one, right?
Paul Marden: Yeah. I've got a guest who has been a friend of mine for some time, Stephen Priestnall of Oomph agency. And we're going to talk a little bit about customer experience. So nice little chat between Stephen and I, and then you and I will come together in a little while and talk a little bit about. Let's reminisce about season five and talk a little bit about what might happen in Season 6.
Oz Austwick: Awesome. Great. I'm looking forward to it.
Paul Marden: Let's get on with it then. Welcome to podcast, Stephen.
Stephen Priestnall: Nice to be here, Paul. Thanks for inviting me.
Paul Marden: Good to have you on. Longtime listeners will know that we always start the podcast with some icebreaker questions, which hopefully not too challenging, but we get to know you a little bit better before we start talking about work. So both of my icebreakers are all about visiting attractions this time. So how organised are you in advance? If you go to an attraction, do you take a picnic with you, or are you always partaking of a cup of tea and a slice of cake in the coffee shop?
Stephen Priestnall: I think it would have to be a particularly kind of informal attraction for me to have thought about taking a picnic beforehand. So normally it's just the anticipation of going to the place, and then I'll utilise the services in the place.
Paul Marden: I love a good slice of cake in the coffee shop afterwards. Scone, cream, tea and scone that would be me.
Stephen Priestnall: No way. Maybe a bit of our breath or fruitcake. It's probably more me.
Paul Marden: Oh, lovely. I was at the Roman Baths yesterday with my little girl and we had a lovely wander around and they had a brilliant self guided tour. So if you've got a choice, do you go for a self guided tour? Do you wander around and follow your nose? Or would you rather have a guide take you around and tell you the stories?
Stephen Priestnall: I almost never have a guide to take me around. And then sometimes I even find the self guided tours a little bit invasive. If I'm in a different country where there is kind of a language barrier, a filter, then I might use it then. But you know what? I kind of like that the ability just to bump from one bit to another.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Stephen Priestnall: And experience the experience through my own kind of filter. So that's what I would normally do. I haven't been able to wander around with the headphones on, almost never with a guy.
Paul Marden: Yeah, they had a lovely one at the Roman Baths yesterday. So it had both adult interpretation and kids interpretation, and I found myself switching to the kids one so that I was experiencing what Millie was experiencing, because I was saying to her, “Oh, did they tell you what that was?” “Oh, no, that wasn't in the kids version.” So I swapped the kids one and it brought it to life. It was really. It became much more shared experience for us.
Stephen Priestnall: Yeah, well, that's like that's like the horrible history stuff. Yeah. But actually, it's brilliant. Rattles that was what they were on about in the tudor period, then. I didn't get it until now.
Paul Marden: Yeah, look, listeners, Stephen and I have known each other for quite some time. We've been working together a lot on different projects, and his agency, Oomph, does a lot of work in customer experience. And so today's episode is going to be a little bit more about a primer on what do we mean by customer experience? And really, what I'd like to get to the bottom of today is what can attractioners do better to serve the needs of their customers. Yeah. So, really, Stephen, what I want to do is pick your brains. Let's introduce this whole subject of CX and customer experience and help people to better understand a little bit about what does that mean and how can they bring that into their day to day work in running attractions and meeting customers.
Paul Marden: So, before we start that, why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and a little bit more about Oomph. So that listeners can better understand the context.
Stephen Priestnall: Yeah, thanks, Paul. We've positioned ourselves around the concept of customer experience for about ten years now, and customer experience ten years ago was a bit of an oddball place to be. It kind of grew out of the user experience, the UX world, with a little bit of event management thrown into it and a little bit of actually, you need to think about people in the middle of all of this. And we come from a background of combining digital and data quite successfully to kind of help devise communications campaigns, kind of brand engagements, that kind of thing. And what we could see was if you brought all these things together as data was getting more sophisticated, with digital interactions on the rise, that you could get yourself much more informed about the way in which people's customers were actually behaving.
Stephen Priestnall: And not so much what they were actually how they were behaving, but also what their needs were that drove the behaviours. And so we have, we've grounded our work and customer experience around a very clear desire to understand the needs of our clients’ customers, and then to hold that mirror up for our clients and say, “Look, I know you have these products and services to sell and to engage with, but what we're going to do is a job of letting you know at the point of engagement they're hitting your customers needs in this way. And if you then flip the lens around from the customer need first rather than the product or service first, you might determine a different way of building that service or designing that interaction, or maybe even changing the way in which you invite customers into a journey with you.”
Stephen Priestnall: So a lot of data and digital inside are our space port that inform CX. And then in the last couple of years, AI has been another transformative technology that we've started to utilise. And we know we treat it as good AI. We know there's bad AI out there, but the good AI is really helpful.
Paul Marden: That's really interesting. We know from the Rubber Cheese Survey this year that most attractions have dabbled. They've played with ChatGPT, or something like that. But there's still a large portion of attractions that have done nothing with AI. And then there's a couple that I would consider at the leading edge. So they're doing things beyond GPT. They're looking at AI enabled CRM or AI enabled workforce management solutions.
Paul Marden: So there's some interest in here, but it's definitely, there's a conversation that we've had on the podcast just recently with Oz and I talking about the idea that we can't quite figure out if we're in a bubble because a lot of people that we talk to talk a lot of good game about AI, but when we're talking to the businesses, the clients, they're only just getting into this in the most shallow way. Agencies like yours and ours are kind of. We're leading the conversation on this, I think.
Stephen Priestnall: Well, I think it's really interesting you frame it like that, because one of the things that has informed our approach to CX is the idea of understanding behaviour change, which is a science in itself. So if any listeners are familiar with behaviour change, you'll know how long the tail of kind of investigation evaluation that is. We launched a study in 2020 which ended up over three years and three waves, 10,000 respondents looking at the impact of Covid-19 on people's behaviour and their interaction with organisations. That is part of our research centre which we call tide of events, which is now about to launch another study which is going to be looking at the impact of AI.
Paul Marden: Oh really?
Stephen Priestnall: As employees, as citizens, as customers, as service users, as members, as supporters. I'm expecting some very interesting things to come out of that study as well.
Paul Marden: Yeah, very interesting. So there's this idea of kind of CX thinking and embedding that, embedding it the heart of your agency, but you then helping your clients to embed it into the business. So how can CX thinking help an attraction to improve its offering? And I think if we can look at that in two directions, because obviously most visitor attractions are an in person experience, there's lots of thinking around their interaction and the experience that they feel when they're in the attraction itself. But there's a lot of us looking at either side of that interaction. How do we use marketing to get more people to want to do stuff? And then how do we make sure that they got the best experience after they did and reengage with us. How can CX thinking offline and online help an attraction?
Stephen Priestnall: The principles of customer experience thinking, certainly from our perspective, is to deal with the reality of that there are people involved. And I think you and I both know, Paul, in the digital world it's kind of quite easy to forget as a person we spend a lot of time in front of technology, trying to get technology to do stuff that we think is helpful. And then it's easy to lose sight of the goal, which is to help a person achieve a task or do something which they have, they enjoy doing. I think in the world of attractions, destinations, then when you're in a kind of physical world, that you're sat in that environment designing something, and you're a physical person yourself.
Stephen Priestnall: And as a designer, looking in that environment, feeling that, okay, well, if I walk from here to here, it's going to feel like that. If I put this in the wrong place, if my member of staff is trained in the wrong way and uses the wrong language, that's going to have a direct impact. So you kind of get brought back to the people side of it quite a lot when you're in it in person. So I would say that the world of CX thinking is about bringing the importance of the human into the overall experience. So you don't treat the digital experience with kind of it in a different frame set than you treat the in real life, in person experience.
Stephen Priestnall: And that's quite hard to do, because sometimes you're trying to drive the digital experiences as a kind of conversion funnel to get people to do something and buy something or consume some content. And you can kind of get hung up on the word optimisation and funnel management, and you then get drawn into, how can we push people through to the next phase? And push people through to the next phase? And imagine if you're in an attraction, and yeah, you might make certain parts, physical areas, a place where you would want people to go to, but you wouldn't have somebody walking up and nudging them in the back, pushing them down the aisle and stopping them from turning around and staying in one place.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Stephen Priestnall: And yet, that's often what happens in the digital world. It becomes an optimisation process to kind of channel a particular behavior that we think is optimal for the organisation. So the world of CX stands back from that, identifies the needs that were satisfying, and looks at Paul and Stephen as two individuals who are unique as individuals, and can be defined by a set of age, gender, sociological, economic characteristics. But actually, Paul and I might have five or six relevant needs for the attraction of which two are consistent. And, you know, two or three are completely different. So we can't treat Paul as Paul and Stephen as Stephen. We have to understand the relationship between the needs that we have as individuals and the thing that we're doing, or the point of the point on the journey we're on.
Stephen Priestnall: And I think that's tricky to kind of link the digital and the in real life worlds together. But that's the trick I like to think the kind of CX approach would bring.
Paul Marden: Yeah. Just as you're saying that it can be hard to think about the person. But also many of the attractions that we work with have very different offerings. And so consequently they have very different audiences that have very different needs. And, you know, are you trying to serve online an audience that's never going to attend? How do you serve those people's needs? If you've got an educational remit, how do you serve those people's needs whilst at the same time serving the needs of the people that you want to bring in and spend money on site with you? If you're a historic house that also has a golf course and it has a hotel and it has some sort of kids attraction associated with it, there's so many different audiences.
Paul Marden: So that kind of CX thinking can help you to step back.
Stephen Priestnall: Absolutely. And actually just maybe think of a great triangulation process between three different clients that we've been working with recently that show that kind of breadth of differences. So we work with the saudi arabian government on a new, one of their giga projects on a new destination out in the desert near Rhea called Duria. And that is an amazing set of destination components. Golf courses, equestrian centres, hotels, business centres. And that's creating a destination for a country which has never had any tourism in it before. So with a whole bunch of high net worth individuals that you've got to think about, then also a challenge to get people who live in Saudi to not spend the $90 billion a year that they do going to visit the rest of the world and to actually visit somewhere in Saudi.
Stephen Priestnall: So we've had a set of kind of challenges around how do you drive a customer journey, a visitor journey for that. And we've been working with an organisation called Marketing Manchester, helping them devise a new segmentation so they can, I'm going to use the term, attract the right kind of visitors to go to Manchester to hook in with their sustainability strategy. They don't just want people in the shopping malls and going to the football, sports events or shows, albeit they would like that. They also want to understand the community engagement, the cultural engagement and the environmental footprint that they leave behind. And then we're just in conversations with North York Moore's National Park. And then there's a whole different set of conversations about engagement with the local community, communities, a little bit arms folded about tourists. How do you make that come together?
Stephen Priestnall: And all of this is about people and it's about understanding people's relationship with people and things.
Paul Marden: Brilliant. So let's have a little think about given that those are the ideas behind CX thinking. If you were starting out down this road, what are the simple things that people can do to start to bed the customer at the heart of their thinking as they're planning their services? And I'm thinking in terms of, we've got very different types of attractions in this country, very small, up to, you know, big international attractions. Let's pick the small guys. Yeah. Imagine you're running a small town museum and, you know, you've got a handful of people working in the team. How can you start to embed the customer into your thinking to improve the service?
Stephen Priestnall: So I think, I don't think the principles change with scale. I think that the executional methods will change with scale, but the principles. And you can have, you know, if you've got a small team of three or four people, you can have these three or four people working together in a room. You can support a research or not, if you can afford the research that great. If you can't, then you use. So we use a term called foundational intelligence. So before we start any research with a client which might go and look at their customers or prospective customers or visitors.
Stephen Priestnall: We say, “Right, let's go all of the information in your organisation on the surface, first, because there's however many people around the room's years of experience, which is not necessarily formed in a cx way, but if we get that on the table, we've probably got a 60, 70, 80% starting point for what we're going to need to know in the end. I think that's the first thing I would say, is take confidence in the fact you've got some foundational intelligence about customer experience. But there might be a clever way of bringing that out through a little workshop. So you ask the right questions of each other. And one of the ways which I think is useful to do and quite practical is to think about three different ways of looking at people as individuals.
Stephen Priestnall: So think about themselves as a, you know, a standard attribute based, if you like, cohort or segments, you know, age, demography, all those things that we talked about, but then move those to one side and then ask a relatively straightforward question, what needs are being satisfied by your services? So it's kind of, what's the point of what you do? Yeah, well, harsh question.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Stephen Priestnall: But it's devoid from, if you like, knowing your customers at that point, devoid from any transaction based evaluation or business case to say, what's the point of what we do? Why do people turn up and then be quite hard about answering those questions. And when you get the first answer in your head, which is based on what you've always thought you've always done, just go right. Is that really why people turn up?
Paul Marden: Is that right?
Stephen Priestnall: Really why people walk through the door? Is that really why people tell their friends about us?
Paul Marden: There's a little bit of lean thinking there, isn't there? You've got five whys, haven't you? You could go, but why? But why? But why? Just to keep pushing yourself to think that hard thought.
Stephen Priestnall: Exactly. Whatever, you know, whatever little mental games you want to play with it, that's the kind of point. What's the point? And then the next lens to look at it is the journey your visitors are on in order to not just get to your destination, but get out of your destination and be reflecting on it to their I, peers, friends, colleagues, family. And that journey doesn't mean I book a ticket, I turn up, I walk around the attraction and then I go home. It means what are the component parts of that journey when they're in planning more just you asked me earlier on about whether I plan a picnic. What are they planning? How likely are they to plan? Do they not want to plan? Do they just want to turn up?
Stephen Priestnall: You know, when they're getting to, when they're coming, when they're traveling to the destination, how are they traveling? What's their preferred method of travel? And then what are the different ways in which people engage with the attraction itself? And then what happens afterwards when they walk out? Do they walk out and go for a beer? Forget about it. Did they do that thing you do in a golf club where you spend the next 3 hours talking about what you did for the last 3 hours? And what's the version of that could be done in social media afterwards? And again, do that. Do that without necessarily worrying too much about who does what. So you end up these kind of journey components.
Stephen Priestnall: Now all these things can be really heavily researched if you've got resources and the time to do that, but you can do it in a room with three or four people in 2 or 3 hours. And what you'll end up with is a set of right. The people who visit us look a bit like this. Typically, here's five or six types of people, here's a pool type, here's a Steven type, here's a whoever else type of. We've got ten or eleven needs. Well, who knew we had ten or eleven needs? That were satisfying.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Stephen Priestnall: So you write those down. Oh, look, we got a journey which looks like planning, engagement, reflection. And I use those three terms because we use them all the time because they're nice and easy to get your head around. Planning, engagement, reflection, and within engagement here are all the different bits that are happening in engagement here. At the different bits that, all right, we might have a dozen, maybe even two dozen components underneath those kind of three big things. And you've then got a bit of a jigsaw. And it's also objective at that point as well. You've then got this objective jigsaw to say, which of those five or six groups of people have which of those needs do we think you might end up with that funny place where.
Stephen Priestnall: Oh, actually that cohort doesn't have any of those needs, so we think they really like coming to us, but we're not doing anything to satisfy their needs or this other group that we don't get many of. Look how many needs we're satisfying in that group. Maybe we should be targeting that group.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Stephen Priestnall: So whether you're. Whether you go outwards and change your segmentation, your targeting, or whether you come in with and change your service design, you've already got some things to think about. And then when you map the journey on top of that, and again, you know, nice. It could be a done on paper, it could be done. There's loads of tools online you can do this without getting too scientific. You've then got the points at which, all right, so if that need is being satisfied for those people at that point, we now have a design intervention to work out. So we now have, essentially, we have a brief, we have a specification now that might be a piece of digital interaction, it might be a piece of communications design, it might be a piece of signage in the attraction, it might be a follow up social media nudge.
Stephen Priestnall: You're then not inventing what you think it is that you need to do for your attraction. We use a phrase which I think clients are pretty comfortable with in the end because it. It's a real reflection. It's completely normal for organisations to kind of end up with an inside and view of the world. Everything is all about the product and the service because that's where the investment goes, that's where the thinking goes. And what we try and do is just to persuade people to take an outside in view. So actually look at this from the point of view of the customer. And I think what the exercise I've just described does is help you take that outside in view.
Paul Marden: I'm smiling for those listening. I'm smiling because I just, it reminds me of so many times where I can, you know, I can see observing in the projects that we do or just, you know, interacting with the outside world, where you can tell that people often take a very parochial internal view and they'll communicate with the outside world in their own internal language. They will try and, you know, influence people to do things rather than thinking, how does this appear outside?
Stephen Priestnall: Yeah, and it's, it, but it's also, it's not a critique. It's normalised behaviour. If you just think about how organisations grow, you end up with an idea, you know, where often it is about the customers. You've got this entrepreneurial, innovative spark that kicks the idea off, satisfying the needs. And then you build up a bunch of teams who, by definition, have broken out into departments with different roles and responsibilities. And then, and then the sense of self of the people in those teams is derived from the departmental responsibility.
Paul Marden: Yes.
Stephen Priestnall: But as a consequence, you then are trained, naturally trained to be inside out.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Stephen Priestnall: And so, it's normal. And then when that, then when the salesperson comes back and says, “Why did you build it like that?” You know, the designer, the product person says, “Well, because that's the best way of doing this thing.” And the salesperson says, “I can't sell that.” And that actually, and I don't know how much. In your podcast, Paul, you talked about agile, but this is when the concept of squads really can work. I think that you have to take real care with squads because they can end up creating rooms of people who don't understand each other. I think unless there's one other thing I would say about the human part of CX, you have to take this into the culture of the organisation as well. So you asked me earlier, how do you present a CX focus for an organisation?
Stephen Priestnall: Well, you can't just drop the results of that little workshop on top of everybody, because it's the going through the process of looking at those three lenses that puts you in a different mindset. If you then just end up telling the product people or telling the sales people or telling the ops people, can you do it like this now? They'll just add that onto their list of things to do. It won't be a change.
Paul Marden: But when you bring those people into the conversation, I think it brings a different perspective, doesn't it? And I think that's the one thing I've learned from you in the few years that we've known one another is that when you boil it down, everything is a CX project. And I don't think I ever really thought about that. That there can be something which to me seems so navel gazing, internally focused as a technical project to deliver in the business. But actually, when you think, when you apply the rigor of thinking about the client, the customer, then you find that it is a CX driven project, even if it is completely internally facing. It can be about the communication between two teams, but in the end, because they don't have good communication, it's resulting in this poor customer experience over here.
Paul Marden: So when you think about it hard, then these projects have a CX focus, even when they are very kind of internally facing.
Stephen Priestnall: And it's sometimes difficult. I mean, I think that's a really good articulation of it. It sometimes can be a challenge to make that process seem worthwhile, because what you end up doing is spending more time challenging what you think is right at the beginning of the process. And there's always a desire from somewhere to move things on. I think that there's a little value based model that I always apply in my head, which if we treat this kind of CX phase as the planning phase, and then you go through a design phase, then you go through a build phase. For every extra hour you spend in planning, without spending that, you would spend ten more hours in design and a hundred more hours in production. So if you leave that hour aside, you're going to have a tenfold in design phase.
Stephen Priestnall: And if you don't deal with it in design phase, you'll have it 100 fold, then build phase. But choosing to do that extra hour, which is tension filled, it might be a bit of conflict, there might be a bit of defensiveness. It needs to be carefully managed and kind of cajoled, but the value of it is meant.
Paul Marden: Yeah. So you've described this kind of approach to take, identifying who the customers are, trying to use a little bit of intuition to be all science if you've got the budget to go and do the research, but to understand those customers in more detail and what their needs are, and then driving down and finding out where, you know, the journey maps onto that and where the gaps are and starting to look to fill those gaps. Is there room in the world for a dirty bottom up approach where you can see a problem already and you want to address that problem? Can you attack this from both angles or do you need to start from a top down approach?
Stephen Priestnall: I'm an arch pragmatist and if we know there's a problem to solve and it's screaming for a solution, then that's going to solve the problem. I would only cancel that try and stand back and look at the unintended consequences through a very objective lens. You don't need to spend long doing that. But I think the magnetism of solving a problem that's been a longstanding problem can also act as a set of blinkers. So that's the only thing I would say.
Paul Marden: Yeah, you can be distracted by the screaming problem that turns out not to be the real root cause. If you take the bigger picture of you.
Stephen Priestnall: If we got this horrendous problem just before checkout, whether that's a digital or at the attraction itself and queuing up going on, you know, there's a need to solve that through a piece of technology or extra stuff on the tills. But actually, it turns out that there's a funneling process going on in the start of the process that's causing everybody to end up at the checker at the same time. And that can be solved by a different distribution of products in the attraction itself, or bringing in some different content to inform people in the digital journey. That means they don't have to do task X and Y because they now know about it. You know, we've all had that before, which it looks like people can't get through this bit of the funnel. Let's try and make this bit of the funnel easier.
Stephen Priestnall: Let's try and do more things. More buttons, more. Let's just try and make it easier. But actually, it turns out, if only we'd given that visitor to the digital journey more time to consume content and not push them through the first stage of the transaction process so quickly, they would have entered the second stage much better informed and relaxed about completing the overall thing.
Paul Marden: It's just such a challenge, isn't it? Because I can just feel me even now with our fictitious scenario, all I want to do is squeeze them down the funnel. But you have to focus at the end about getting the right outcome, don't you?
Stephen Priestnall: There's another great metaphor I like to use, and we do this all the time because we talk about something called sustainable customer experience. And sustainable customer experience strategy isn't about a green CX strategy. It's about saying, if you get your CX strategy right, you will have to spend less money on acquiring new customers, so it's more economically sustainable and there's a really interesting kind of just different way of looking at it. So normally if you look at the typical retail conversion process, if you get 100 people on the top of a digital funnel, you might get five out the end as a conversion there's usually really simple numbers, five. So everybody works on how do we make five six? That's the big thing because that's like 20% improvement. If you get five to six, we've just put 20% on the bottom line.
Stephen Priestnall: Meanwhile there's 95 people. Do you care? Are you interested? I came here for a reason and you don't like me anymore, so. Well, goodbye then. So what we do is we say, right, we want to put as much effort into understanding the 94. It's not wasted effort. I'm a pragmatist, as we do making the five six, because if out of that 94 we can get another 20 over the next twelve months to do the same thing. We've not spent any money on customer acquisition. We've built and engaged in a relationship. We've had opportunities to talk and engage them, which probably means they're going and talking to other people and checking about the experience. So they're probably doing some recruitment for us anyway, which we can also nudge behaviour.
Stephen Priestnall: And then what that does, it changes the mentality inside the organisation to not just think about, we've got six out the other end. Yes. Celebrate. And actually think about. Because imagine if you did that physically. Imagine if physically you could see the hundred people in a queue and everybody went off celebrating the 6th that went through. And then you look back and you looked at these 94 people just milling around having a chat with each other and what just happened.
Paul Marden: Yeah, that would feel pretty uncomfortable, wouldn't it?
Stephen Priestnall: It will. Especially for an attraction.
Paul Marden: Yeah, for sure. Look, this has been brilliant. It's nice. I think sometimes to take a step back and look at that kind of the 101 class, the intro to the subject. And I think this is a subject that we will come back to again and again. We've talked about taking it back to its first principles a little bit today, but this is embedded within the attraction sector. They know and understand the people that come through the door. This is something that they take really seriously, obviously. But I think there are ways in which we can take what we've learned today and use that as a springboard into some more deeper conversations.
Paul Marden: Maybe in Season 6, which is coming up where we can talk a little bit more about, you know, your conversations about AI, the direction that you take these things in. How does AI help you in a world where you want to be cx centric? What does AI do for you? So thank you ever so much. This has been brilliant. Thank you.
Stephen Priestnall: Really enjoyed it.
Paul Marden: One last ask of you, though. We always ask our interviewees to come up with a book recommendation. And it can be fiction, it can be factual, it can be about the subject. But we will give this book away to the first person that retweets the show advert and says, I want Stephen's book. So what is the book that you'd like to share with the world?
Stephen Priestnall: Well, so I'd love to say it was. It was a book I wrote in 1986 on expert systems in context. I was doing AI back in the 80’s. That one is out of print. You definitely will get hold of it. Instead, it's a book that I think challenges, whatever your persuasions about understanding of the environment and climate, challenges your way of thinking about. It's a book by an activist called George Monbiot, and it's called Feral. And it's to do with the rewilding of Britain, the potential for rewilding Britain. And again, whether you're minded to think that's a good thing or not, it's a great book to just think, okay, that's my perceptions challenge. I hadn't thought of things like that.
Paul Marden: Excellent. So, listeners, if you'd like to get a copy of Stephen's book, then head over to X, find the show tweet that we put out and say, I want Stephen's book. And the first person to do that will get a copy. Stephen, this has been wonderful. Thank you all so much. And hopefully we will talk more about this in Season 6.
Stephen Priestnall: Thank you very much, Paul.
Oz Austwick: He's a really interesting guy, isn't he?
Paul Marden: He is indeed. I said to Stephen afterwards, it was such a nice conversation because we've been working together for years, and today I got to ask the questions I've been too embarrassed to ask for the last few years because I really should, at this point, know the answers to them. But today I was able to take the place of the listener and ask those questions without fear of embarrassment.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, there does come a point where you kind of feel that you probably shouldn't be asking this question anymore. You should already know this. Yeah, I love that. I thought, it's really interesting. I love this concept of nudging that he talked about, and it's something I've been aware of online for years, but the kind of putting it in the context of happening in the real world, I thought was really interesting. It gives you a bit of insight into how weird it is that we try and force people into certain pathways online. When you'd never dream of doing that in the real world, just having somebody outside a room just pushing you into it. Yeah, you wouldn't do that.
Paul Marden: You're in a queue for the log flume and you get poked in the back to say, “Do you want to buy your photo? Do you want to buy your photo? You really do want to buy the photo, don't you?”
Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, that does kind of happen, doesn't it? It's usually my children that are doing it, if I'm being honest. But, yeah, really interesting stuff.
Paul Marden: A nice way to round out some amazing interviews and fireside chats that we've had over Season 5 and look forward to Season 6.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, I'm really excited about Season 6.
Paul Marden: Yeah, we want to do something a little bit different, don't we?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, well, I mean, firstly, I'll get to start the season of the podcast. Because I wasn't here at the start of Season 5. I've kind of just weaseled my way in halfway through the season and gone, “Yes, mine now.”
Paul Marden: Tell listeners, what is it that we want to do differently?
Oz Austwick: Well, it feels a bit weird to me that we're creating a podcast all about the visitor attraction sector, which is designed to get people out of their houses to a place and actually experience it in the real world. And yet you're sitting in exactly the same room, and I'm sitting in exactly the same room. And as we pointed out not long ago, I'm wearing the same t shirt as I seem. This appears to be my podcast t shirt. And yet, you know, we're not getting out. So we're gonna get out. We're gonna get in a car and go to a place and record a podcast in an attraction with a person. And I think that's amazing.
Paul Marden: Yeah, I just can't wait. We've got a couple lined up. One's crazy, one's going to be a big event. It could be really fun, but we love listeners with attractions who would like two blokes and some cameras to turn up to invite us along. We would love to come and visit your venue. We would love to talk about whatever subject it is that you think our listeners would like to discuss, and we'll come along and we'll record it in real life at your place and see how amazing your venue is and talk more about the stuff that everybody's interested in.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely. But it's not just that we're going to do a little bit differently, is it? We're kind of focusing a little bit more on different groups.
Paul Marden: Yeah. There was some lovely feedback for those, for listeners that listened to Kelly's final episode, her swan song. When Ross from Drayton Manor came on and talked about his experience of being on the podcast and how influential it was for him to have his 15 minutes of fame for Skip the Queue, and how important that was to him in his stage, in his career, that prompted us to think about, can we use this platform now that so many people before us built to help to shine a light on new and emerging talent in the sector? So if you are in early stages of your career and you are doing something interesting in the attraction space, could be digital, it could be something customer focused in real life.
Paul Marden: There's so many different ways where we could have an interesting conversation about what it is that you do and why other people would find it interesting. You know, invite us in. We would love to have that conversation with people. If you know someone, if there's someone in your team who, you know, you can see is doing amazing things and could grow in their career with the spotlight shone on them, and there's lots of people like that, then point them in our direction. Point us in their direction. We can definitely do something to help them to share their story and hopefully to benefit from that springboard, that stepping outside and talking to the outside world about what you do can really have on a career.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's lovely that hopefully now, after five seasons, the podcasts kind of mature enough that we don't need to lean on those famous, influential people in the industry quite as much. And hopefully that maybe we've got enough loyal listeners and enough of us standing as a podcast that we can tell stories just because they're interesting. Yeah, you already know the name of the person we're talking to, so, yeah, that's going to be really exciting.
Paul Marden: But, you know, there are stories to be told that we don't know about yet that I'm sure will be going on inside listeners minds and, you know, hit us up, send us an email, send us a tweet, an X. I don't know what. I don't know. That's another story, isn't it? But send us a message by carrier Pigeon, if you can, that tells us what you think we should be talking about, the people we should be meeting and the stories that should be told. We would love to hear from you.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, and in the meantime, enjoy your two or three weeks without Skip the Queue.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Hopefully you're all busy working in your attractions, being absolutely swamped. If the attractions I've been to are anything to go by, it is a rip roaring success of a summer. We've had some pretty good weather and yeah, we'll be looking back at this September October time thinking what an amazing summer it was after a disappointing start to the year.
Oz Austwick: So yeah, well, fingers crossed. Absolutely.
Paul Marden: Thank you, Oz. It's been delightful. I've enjoyed every minute of it.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, me too. Here's to Season 6.
Paul Marden: Yeah, see you on the other side.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE!
Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions
Download the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report
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Why you absolutely should take part in the 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey
17 jul· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

Fill in the Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Competition ends on 31st July 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://rubbercheese.com/survey/
https://carbonsix.digital/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/
Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn’t know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile.
https://rubbercheese.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/thatmarketingbloke/
Oz Austwick is the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, he has a somewhat varied job history having worked as a Blacksmith, a Nurse, a Videographer, and Henry VIII’s personal man at arms. Outside of work he’s a YouTuber, a martial artist, and a musician, and is usually found wandering round a ruined castle with his kids.
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Mister attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. In today's episode, Oz Austwick and I talk about the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey. After six weeks of data collection, we've seen some really interesting insights that we'll share and we'll also announce a new digital sustainability initiative that we're really excited about.
Paul Marden: Hello, Oz. How you doing, mate?
Oz Austwick: Hi, I'm good, mate, I'm good. How are you?
Paul Marden: I am very good. On a slightly gray summer's day, hopefully, you know, all the private schools have broken up, so it should start to get busy in the attractions over the next couple of weeks and then we've got all the state schools breaking up in the next few weeks as well. So exciting times, hopefully. Hopefully busy times as well.
Oz Austwick: Yes. So what are we going to talk about today?
Paul Marden: Well, we are going to talk a little bit about the survey, but I thought it might be quite nice as well to talk a little bit about what's happening in the news because there's quite a lot at the moment.
Oz Austwick: There is been a bit of a change of boss, haven't there has been.
Paul Marden: A change of boss recently. But before we do that, shall we talk about where have we been recently? Tell me, tell me, which attraction have you been to recently?
Oz Austwick: So this is why you're here, to keep me on track. The most recent attraction I've been to is Hazelmere Museum in Surrey. It's a bit of an eye opener, to be honest. I've always had a bit of a love for these tiny little provincial, formerly council run museums that you find in little towns around the country because you come across some amazing gems hidden in them. But Hazelmere Museum is a little bit different. I mean, it's astonishing. It's got a vast catalogue of natural history stuff. I mean, hundreds of thousands of pieces in the catalogue there. They've got an Egyptian section as well, with a sarcophagus and a mummy. Yeah, it's a great place. It's hidden away in this tiny little market town and if you get the opportunity, go, because it's great.
Oz Austwick: But there is no parking, so you have to park in the town centre and walk along, which is the only downside I can come up with. How about you? Where have you been?
Paul Marden: Sounds awesome. I have been to a few tiny little museums, actually. Recently I went to Winchester with my daughter and we did some of the military museums in Winchester because there's quite a few regimental museums in Winchester. They are all of them, you know, hyper focused on a particular regiment doing very specific things. So, you know, there's a cavalry museum and infantry museums. And it's just really interesting. My brother was in the army. It's quite nice to be able to take Millie and walk her around some of these military museums and for her to connect with what he did when he was in the army. So we’re able to see, there's a little piece in one of the museums showing the war in Kosovo and how peacekeepers went over. And my brother had a medal from going to Bosnia.
Paul Marden: He went to in peacekeeping back in the ’90s. That was very interesting for her to be in a museum and connect with something that's of relevance to the family. He was slightly offended when I told him. Also, we saw model of Pegasus Bridge. And she was like, “Was he at Pegasus Bridge?” And I was like, “No, no. Uncle Barry's not quite that old. No, that's about 40 years too old for Uncle Barry.”
Oz Austwick: Yeah. Do you know, I remember I went to Pegasus Bridge completely by accident once. Literally. We were just driving back and went, “Hang on a minute. This looks familiar. “Yeah. We stopped off at the cafe and had a wander around the bridge. And you can still see the bullet holes in the walls of the cafe building. And there are still tanks. Amazing place. Anyway, sorry, I digress.
Paul Marden: No, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about what's happening in the news at the moment. Anything that springs to mind for you?
Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, obviously, the change of government, I don't think it came as a big surprise to anyone. Maybe the actual numbers were a little surprising, but the fact that we've now got a Labour Prime Minister with a fairly clear majority I don't think was a massive surprise. How that's going to play out in terms of the sector, I don't know.
Paul Marden: Yeah, we've got a different culture sector in place, haven't we, than were perhaps anticipating. So there's few changes of personnel than we perhaps anticipated.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, I mean, I guess we'll wait and see. It's probably just a result of the change, but I guess I'm feeling fairly optimistic that things might improve.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I feel an air of optimism that we haven't had for quite some time.
Oz Austwick: Yeah.
Paul Marden: Interesting times, other things in the sector. Interesting, exciting news. The Young V&A were awarded the Art Fund Museum of the Year. That's a, you know, a new museum that's doing lots of amazing work. We're real focused on kids and families. Lots of. Lots of co creation with young people involved in it. So that's quite exciting stuff. And it comes with a really hefty prize fund as well. So. So they got quite a nice pat on the back, a gong and some money as well to be able to fund their good work. So that's exciting.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Good for them. Anything else? Yeah, Bloomberg. I think we should probably talk a little bit about Bloomberg earlier in the year. We talked a lot about to a lot of people about the fact that Bloomberg philanthropies were awarding grants as part of their accelerator program for attractions, culturally significant attractions, to improve their digital presence. And that's kind of happened. A lot of awards have been made, attractions have got money to spend, and that's beginning to work its way out into the community now. So I'm really looking forward to seeing if that actually makes a significant difference to the overall level of websites. And I guess we'll probably have to wait until next year with the survey to find out if there's been a change in the sector.
Oz Austwick: But I think for those attractions that have received the money, it can't be anything but a positive thing.
Paul Marden: I was quite impressed because it's not just money that they're getting. They're getting help and support from Bloomberg as well to guide them in the use of that money. Because I think sometimes you see charities getting awarded large chunks of money and sometimes it can be a challenge for them to spend that money effectively, whereas by being provided guidance from Bloomberg, you know, you can see that money is going to be well spent and well used. So that's. I'm pleased about that. It'll be really exciting to see some of those projects come to fruition. I was pretty excited about a couple of science centre related news items. So we the curious in Bristol has reopened after two years of being closed in fire. So that was, I think that was monumental for them to be able to turn that around. It was really.
Paul Marden: I was really pleased to see them reopen. That's definitely on my list of things I need to do this summer, is go and visit them and see what amazing things they've done. Absolutely. And then we've also got Cambridge Science Centre as well, will be due to open in a couple of weeks time. So they've opened their ticketing up. So people can now buy tickets to go to Cambridge Science Centre who have been a little bit like we the curious. They've been without a physical home for a period of time and are reopening a physical offering again. So that's exciting to be able to go and buy your tickets and head on over to Cambridge Science Centre.
Oz Austwick: And Kids in Museums as well. I'm not going to talk about it because I know you know a lot more about it than me. But they're looking for volunteers, right?
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So I think we talked in a number of episodes about the Family Friendly Museum Awards and short lists of those have been announced. That includes Young V&A again. And we're looking for volunteer families to go undercover and do the judging. And I love it. The idea that families will get. They will have a contribution to the cost of money, pay expenses for them to go undercover and do this judging. And the feedback we get from those families is amazing. At the awards last year, each time an award was announced, we get a little snippet of what the undercover judges actually said and it's surprising what kids find important to them. The benches were comfy or the cafe was nice, you know, little things that perhaps adults might notice, you know, comes out in that undercover judging.
Paul Marden: So, yeah, Kids in Museums need volunteers. Head on over to the website to go and find out a little bit more about that undercover judging. If you'd like to get involved in it. That's the news. But what do we really want to talk about?
Oz Austwick: We really want to talk about our survey.
Paul Marden: We really do. It's exciting.
Oz Austwick: In fairness, we're kind of always talking about the survey at the moment. So now we're just going to talk to you about the survey rather than each other and anyone that will listen.
Paul Marden: Yes, absolutely.
Oz Austwick: We've been open for submissions for, what, six weeks now?
Paul Marden: About that, I think. Yeah.
Oz Austwick: A few weeks to go. It's proving really interesting.
Paul Marden: Yes.
Oz Austwick: Is that enough of the hook? Have we got you now? One of the things that I think is probably worth saying is that somehow, and whilst we wanted this to happen, I don't think we specifically planned for it, we've kind of lost a lot of the kind of fake submissions that we've had in previous years where people were clearly just having a look at the survey or not bothering to fill it in, or maybe it was bots doing it and we don't seem to have those. So the overall quality of the responses is just fantastic. And some of the venues that have submitted their data to the survey, I mean, they're astonishing. I'm not going to name any names because I don't know if I'm allowed to.
Paul Marden: No, you're definitely not allowed to.
Oz Austwick: Some of the biggest and most famous attractions in the country. Or even the world because we are worldwide this year.
Paul Marden: But more importantly, also the smallest museums you could possibly imagine are in that data set as well. So what have we seen? We got all of these amazing responses. We've still got a couple of weeks left to go. We don't want anyone to feel left out. We definitely want more people to respond over the next couple of weeks. But let's give some teasers. What have we seen that we thought was interesting?
Oz Austwick: Before we do, can I just make a couple of points that I think everybody needs to be aware of? The first is that any data you put in is absolutely confidential in every way. We're never going to release your data to the wider world. All the data that gets released is aggregated together and is done in a way that is completely anonymous. But what that does is it allows us to give sector wide data and we can give your data in comparison to that, so you can and see where you are. So there's no risk of anything getting out in the wide world that you don't want out there. It's completely non commercial. You know, we're not making money from this, we're not doing this, we're not asking for your data in order that we can make money.
Oz Austwick: This is to give back to the community. We want people to have the information so that they can make the right decisions. And also, you don't have to fill in everything. If you look at it and think, you know, I ought to fill this in, I want to fill it in, but I haven't got time to do the whole thing, do half of it, that's okay. Even if you only fill in one question, that will improve the value of that answer to the entire sector. I'll shush now. Sorry. Let's look at some action figures.
Paul Marden: Let's talk about some of the interesting findings. We've definitely found some things where we've gone. “Oh, really? Oh, how interesting.” So for me, one of them, I'm a tech geek. Everybody knows I'm a tech geek. Okay. Ticketing systems, content management systems, that's my bag. I was quite interested this year that we're seeing much more parity in terms of the ticketing system data that we're getting. So there is a number of ticketing systems where in previous years there's been a substantial number of people selecting Digitickets. In previous years we're seeing more. We're seeing more responses from other respondents this year with different ticketing systems. And I think we've said this before, it's nothing. These aren't necessarily indicating changes in the behaviour of the sector.
Paul Marden: It more speaks to the different people that are responding in different years and we're seeing more responses from different people this year. And so we are seeing different ticketing systems appearing alongside Digitickets as key. You spotted something that surprised you, didn't you, in that respect?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. When we designed the survey went through all of the ticketing systems that were familiar with and all of the names that we knew but hadn't had specific experience of working with. And we created what we thought was a really comprehensive listing of ticketing systems. But we allowed people to tick other and then write in what they were using and we clearly missed one big player from that list and they're probably the highest ranked so far. I haven't actually looked for the last week or so. They're certainly up there. They may not be the most popular but they're one of the most popular and it came as a complete surprise to us. So, you know, do make sure that you get your report because there is stuff in it that surprises even if it's just me, I mean.
Oz Austwick: But you may well be surprised by some of the results of that.
Paul Marden: Yeah, we saw interesting shifts. So we've done a little bit of year on year analysis as well. Already we've seen that there are more people selecting WordPress as their CMS. So that's now around half of all respondents have selected WordPress as their content management system.
Oz Austwick: I'm going to take issue with your phrasing there because I'm not sure that's an accurate description.
Paul Marden: Why?
Oz Austwick: Because I don't necessarily think we've seen more people selecting WordPress, but we've certainly had more people stating they use WordPress. They may have been using WordPress years, much like the ticketing system. What we've got is a snapshot of the people who have submitted.
Paul Marden: Yeah, so I meant selected the tick box as opposed to selected the technology platform. But you're absolutely right. It is indicative of the responses that we're getting this year. And it's not. They're not eating away market share from the other CMS's. I think we're seeing more people being able to tell us what the CMS that they're using is. So fewer people are saying I don't know or I can't track this, and actually giving us answer.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, we made a real conscious effort to try and reduce the number of people just saying other. And I think that's probably made a big difference to these.
Paul Marden: Yeah, up around is around 11% now, up from 4% in 2023. So that's quite interesting. We're definitely going to do some analysis this year to try and see. Can we slice and dice some of the other data by technology platforms to see if any of these platforms give those people that select them an edge in terms of their performance or their sustainability scores or things like that?
Oz Austwick: I know one of the things that we noticed last year was that the bigger, more successful venues were more likely to use Umbraco or perhaps the other way around. The venues that used Umbraco were more likely to be the bigger, more successful venues, but there was no way of telling which was cause and which was effect or whether they were just completely disconnected at all. And hopefully now, because we've got a slightly bigger sample size, we might be able to be a bit more accurate with that. Rather than stating this is a correlation, maybe there's something we can actually action from this.
Paul Marden: Yeah. You had some interesting stuff that you saw around how easy people find it to find stuff, didn't you?
Oz Austwick: Yes. There's been a long debate that's been going on for longer than I've been with Rubber Cheese about the value of self reporting. And I know that there were some conversations with the Advisory Board that we put together to help design the survey this year about whether that was a valuable thing to do. And I think that, because that's how we've done it for the last few years, we've stuck with it. But also, I think as long as you're open about the fact that this is self reporting, the figure is still accurate. So when we ask people how easy it is for visitors to their website to find what they're looking for, over half of them ranked 8, 9 or 10 out of 10, so that it was very easy.
Oz Austwick: And nobody ranked zero, one or two, so nobody thought that it was really difficult to find stuff on their website. But 50% of sites have never actually tested the site or collected feedback from users. So how valuable that figure is a different question. Yeah, we'll come to that later, because there's an important point that I think we're going to make later on about how we can make that figure more valuable.
Paul Marden: You also saw some stuff around personalisation, didn't you?
Oz Austwick: Yeah. The personalisation things are really important because as a marketer, you go along to agency groups and conferences and workshops and webinars, and for years, if not decades, people have been talking about how important personalisation is. If you've got anybody in your organisation that works with email newsletters, personalisation is absolutely key. And it's really clear that the more you personalise, the better you do. And 90% of the people who filled in the survey agree that personalisation is more important than not. However, only 9% of websites are offering personalised content.
Paul Marden: It's a bit heartbreaking, isn't it?
Oz Austwick: Yeah. Obviously we don't know why and we can say that even at this point, without the survey having finished, that's already up from last year. It was 6% last year and now it's at 9%, which doesn't feel like a big improvement, but it's a 50% increase.
Paul Marden: It'd be interesting to slice that again and see is that the 9% that have personalisation, are they the attractions with larger footfall and larger budgets and that's why they can afford to do this and that's the big barrier to entry? Or is there a something else that actually know that smaller sites with less traffic and less footfall at the attraction can still offer personalisation? It's not just about budgets and some people can use this stuff and get really good outcomes from it, or spending all that time and effort mean that you get no real outcome of it anyway, and that all of those people that think it's really important are kidding themselves. And that's the great thing about the survey, isn't it, that we've got all of this data and we can start to draw those conclusions from it?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is going to be a really interesting one to follow over the next year or two to see if. Is this year's number an actual increase or is it just a more accurate number? Yes, and I guess we can only see that as a trend over time.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: Now, you were very keen that we included some questions about AI and the use of AI.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: Have there been any interesting findings there?
Paul Marden: Yes. So the majority of people have used some sort of AI content generation tool, so they've used ChatGPT or the like to be able to do generative AI, writing, copy and that kind of thing. We've not gone into depth about how much they've used it. Do they use it extensively? Is it part of their day to day work? It was simply a question of have you used any of these tools? So, you know, over half have used a tool like that. There is also hidden in that data set there's a few attractions that are doing some pretty innovative things with AI as well. So there's a couple that are using things like AI powered CRM or AI powered scheduling or workforce management. So earlier on you said everybody's submissions is completely anonymous. That is completely true.
Paul Marden: But I am definitely going to be tapping up those people that gave us the interesting answers to say, “Would you like to come and tell the story in more detail?” So, yes, you're right, we're never going to share anybody's data, and we're never going to share anybody's stories without their permission. We will definitely, over the next few weeks and months, as we're planning the report, we're definitely going to go to the people that have given us interesting data that has made us go, that's very interesting, and talking to them. So we'll find out a little bit more about what those people are doing. But you had an interesting observation, didn't you? If half of the people have used something like ChatGPT, that leaves about half the people that haven't used it.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, it's really difficult to know from where we sit as a digital agency that is constantly trying to stay ahead of the curve and understand new technologies and how they might be relevant and how we can use them to help our clients. You know, we may be, are we more familiar with this than most people, or is the way we see it representative? It's really hard to know. And I find it really hard to believe that the approaching half of visitor attractions simply haven't even looked at it. They've not even gone to ChatGPT and said, you know, find me a title for this blog post or something like that. It just seems that maybe they're missing a trick.
Oz Austwick: And I'm not suggesting that you should go out and get vast amounts of content written by AI and plaster it all over your site. We know that Google is specifically and deliberately penalising sites it knows are doing that, but you can certainly use it to maybe improve your language. Or if you can't come up with a catchy title, you can ask for twelve different suggestions for titles and pick and choose. I find it really hard to believe that half the people haven't even done that, but that could just be my context.
Paul Marden: I think you might be sat in a little bubble of your own making. I sat with people recently and walked them through. How do you prompt ChatGPT? What does prompting even mean? And talking about how is it doing it? And talking about the idea that it's all just probabilities. It's not intelligent, it's just using probabilities to figure out what the next word is. Yeah. And what does that actually mean to people? I definitely think that we sit in a bubble where we are. We are not experts. Neither of us, I think, would consider ourselves experts at best, gentlemen amateurs. But I think we sit in a bubble of people that are using this a lot and are experimenting with it. I don't know.
Paul Marden: I think there's a place for Skip the Queue to look at this next year, to look at what are the innovative things that people are doing. But also starting at the 101 class, what does it all mean? What are these things? How could they be useful to you? How could you make use of ChatGPT to accelerate your content creation, to come up with new ideas that you haven't potentially thought of? So definitely, I think there's space in Season 6 for us to delve into this in more detail. There's one more area that I think we added this year that we're really excited about, isn't there, around sustainability.
Paul Marden: Not because we think we are thought leaders on this, not because we think we're on the cutting edge, but because we're learning so much around this at the moment and really changing the way that we work, aren't we?
Oz Austwick: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a really important point. It's something that. Oh, which conference was it? I think were both there. One of the agencynomics conferences, Joss from Enviral, made the point that this is actually our problem. If websites are out there and they aren't sustainable and they are causing damage, it's the fault of the companies that have built them. And really, that's us. So we kind of feel that we have to be at least trying to take the lead in helping fix that. And you can't do anything to fix the issue unless you've got the knowledge and the understanding of where you are. And I guess that's where we are at the moment. We've asked a few really basic questions, but they've given some quite interesting statistics.
Paul Marden: Yeah. So most attractions have got good intentions, so most have got a sustainability plan in place. We've not asked what that plan looks like or how comprehensive it is. It was simply, does your attraction have a sustainability plan? And most people have said yes to that.
Oz Austwick: When you say it's a majority, I think it's quite important to note that this isn't like 56%, this is a huge majority. The vast majority of sites have sustainability plan to the point where you could say almost everybody does. Not quite everybody, but almost everybody. But that does make the fact that very few have actually specifically measured the carbon footprint of their website a little bit more shocking.
Paul Marden: So that's the big, “Oh, really moment” for us was the idea that most people have got a sustainability plan. Some have even actually taken action to improve the sustainability posture of their website, but very few have actually ever measured the CO2 emissions of their website. So they don't, they're not benchmarking. This is not a coherent plan where you measure, take action, measure again and then replan. Very few of the attractions have actually done that measurement process. We know, we know from recent episodes where we talked about sustainability, the importance of measuring in terms of helping you construct a plan and working in a methodical way to improve the CO2 emissions and improve that sustainability posture. And I think we've recognised as a result of doing the survey that there is some impediment that is stopping people from measuring.
Paul Marden: We're not entirely sure we understand what the impediment is, but there is definitely something getting in the way of people being able to measure. And I think that's our. There's the big thing that I wanted to be able to share today that we have decided as a result of doing the survey and then started to run through, we could see that most people haven't tested the CO2 emissions. So what we have done is we've enriched the database of all of the respondents that we've had this year and gone and done the CO2 emissions tests of their websites for them. Now, obviously, we're going to keep that private to us. We're not singling anybody out, but we are going to be able to aggregate together what the whole industry looks like as a result of the testing that we have done.
Paul Marden: The testing, to be fair, is not just restricted to the people that have responded to the survey. We are also going and testing more widely across the entire sector to be able to get an understanding of what the CO2 emissions of the websites of the wider sector look like. So that's been, that's something that we've been really pleased that we've been able to do and it's something that we want to be able to offer out to everybody that has taken part in the survey. So one of the things that I guess we're announcing today that is a key thing that we've not talked about throughout the whole survey process, is we're going to give everybody that has taken part in the survey the opportunity to download the CO2 emissions report that we have gathered for them on their website.
Paul Marden: So they will be able to see a grading of A to F as to what their CO2 emissions look like. They'll also see that broken down in a little bit more granular detail around the page size, the amount of CO2 that is emitted by the page, one page of their site, and a rough estimate of what that turns into in terms of CO2 emissions for their entire site. And that's something that we will share with everybody at the end of the survey. So this year, it's not just going to be one large survey that aggregates everybody's data together. We will also give individualised reports to everybody for them to be able to see where their CO2 emissions are in terms of their website.
Paul Marden: With ideas we're hopefully going to work with friends of Skip the Queue and supporters of the survey to be able to come up with ideas around how you can actually improve that CO2 posture, which could, that could be an amazing thing for us to run the survey again next year, gather that data again and see today, as we're recording, BBC is running the Michael Mosely just one thing in memory of Michael Moseley. I think we can take inspiration from that. What if every attraction that got access to their report did just one thing to improve the CO2 posture of their website? What difference is that going to make to us as a sector as a whole in that one year process?
Paul Marden: Because there will bound to be a few little things that you can do, knobs to twiddle and features to add on your website that will just improve that CO2 emissions posture just a little bit and make everybody better as a result of it.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. And I think it's really interesting that even though we haven't got the full data yet, and we've not put it together in any meaningful way, it's already changed the way we work as an agency. But not only that, there are other changes going on in the wider community as well, because the website briefs we're getting through from attractions are talking about this more. So I guess from a personal perspective, if you're putting together a brief for a new website or an app or some kind of new digital service, put this in there, ask that somebody pays some attention to the footprint and the impact of your new site and make it part of the decision making process.
Paul Marden: Procurement managers have the control. I absolutely believe that the person that holds the purse strings gets to set the direction of the project. And just like accessibility is always on, every tender, sustainability should be there. This is a easily, trivially measurable thing. And when procurement managers hold us to account, the industry will improve as a result of being held to account like that.
Oz Austwick: Yes. Now, the sustainability reporting isn't the only new thing that we're going to do. There's one more big thing that we're going to do as part of the survey to try and make. Make the data far more valid and applicable. Do you want to say what it is?
Paul Marden: Yeah, I'll take this one. Because this was an idea I had. It was an idea I had a few months ago. I would love to get real end consumer input into the survey. We asked attractions, how important is personalisation? Have you done user testing? How easy was it for people to traverse your website? We're actually going to go out and survey people who have visited a large attraction in the last year and ask them, how easy was it to buy your tickets? We could be asking them about personalisation. We could be asking them about, is sustainability a key deciding buying factor for you? There's lots of things that we could ask people as part of this consumer research piece that we're about to embark on.
Paul Marden: I think it's really exciting to be able to join up the voice of the consumer with the voice of the attractions in the Rubber Cheese Survey as a whole.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. Not only will it give us that knowledge from the other side of the transaction, but it'll let us know really very quickly whether the self reporting that people are doing as part of the survey is actually accurate. Is your view of how easy your website is to use, is that accurate? Is that the same view that people coming to your website for the first time have? Because we're all familiar with our own website and if you've designed the user experience, you probably think it's great and it may well be, but unless you actually test it and ask people, you can't know either way. So I think this is a really exciting thing to do and it allows us to kind of draw in more important information that can help us all as a sector improve.
Paul Marden: Completely. And we've got a little ask in terms of that, haven't we? We would love to hear from you if you have got input into that consumer research, if you've got ideas of things, we could be asking real people that go to real attractions about how they use the website. You know, let us know. We'd love to hear feedback either. You know, send us a message on Twitter, reach out by email. There's links all in the show notes that will help you to make contact with us. But please just make contact and let us know. We've got amazing feedback from the advisory board and we will be talking about this piece of research with the advisory board before the survey goes out to the real people. But you've got a chance at the moment to be able to input to that.
Paul Marden: So please do let us know what you think would be interesting.
Oz Austwick: And whilst we're asking things of you, I've got a few more things that we want to ask.
Paul Marden: Go on then. What do you want? What do you want?
Oz Austwick: Well, all sorts of things. But for today, if you haven't filled in the survey, please do go along to rubbercheese.com. There's a link on the homepage through to the survey. There are different surveys for different parts of the world. Just click on the link, fill it in. You don't have to do the whole thing. Even if it's a partial response, it's still helpful. So please go along, give it a try. I'm led to believe, and I haven't tested this so I'm not going to state for effect, but if you half fill in the survey and then go away and come back on the same computer using the same browser, you'll go back in at the point that you'd got to so you can finish it. It depends on your cookie settings, but that's what is claimed.
Oz Austwick: But even if it doesn't happen, you know, a half survey response is better than none.
Paul Marden: We'd also like you to nag your mates as well. You know, I've been messaging people that have been responding and so many of the marketers that are filling in the survey are part of communities of other marketers. They're parts of communities, regional communities, Wales communities, or they're parts of sector specific. There's so many different groups and organisations that are working together. If you can, please raise the profile of the survey, stick a link in your WhatsApp group with all the people that you work with around you. We would really appreciate that. Obviously, the more people that submit, the better the data set. The more money we'll donate to Kids in Museums as a result of what we do.
Paul Marden: And of course now everybody that submits will get their personalised sustainability report at the end as well, which is another great incentive to get involved.
Oz Austwick: I guess the other thing is that if you filled in the survey before and you don't think you've got time to do the whole thing again from scratch, do let us know because we can quite happily provide you with all of the previous answers that you've given that are relevant to this year's survey and then you can just update or fill in the gaps. We're very happy to do that if it would be helpful. And still for those multi site organisations, if that's an easier way for you, for us to provide you with a spreadsheet that you can just put data into, we're very happy to do that too.
Paul Marden: Absolutely. And the spreadsheet approach again lends itself very well. You don't have to answer everything. If you don't want to share information about the technology platforms you're using, that's fine. If you don't want to share information about your Google Analytics, that's fine. The more data that we get, even if it is partial data, it enriches what we've got and we get a better picture of the entire sector as a result of that. So, yeah, really keen to get input from more people. So that's our call to action. You've got one more thing you want touch on, don't you? You've got your book recommendation that you want to share with us. So tell us what your book is.
Oz Austwick: Well, before I do, there are a couple of things I have to say. The first is that I realise that this is tangentially connected to the visitor attraction sector. That'll become clear, I'm sure, as soon as I reveal the book. The other is that I am an absolute massive history geek. So the book I would like to recommend that if you haven't read this is The Mary Rose by Margaret Rule, which is the story of the excavation and recovery of the Mary Rose itself. I don't know how old you are, dear listener, but I remember sitting in the hall of my school, my primary school up in Yorkshire, with a big TV in a box on a stand with this on the BBC Live and watching it be raised from the depths. And that's kind of stuck with me.
Oz Austwick: So it's lovely to read the story of it from the person who kind of made it happen. And then when you've read the book, go down to Portsmouth and have a look because it is a visitor attraction.
Paul Marden: Now, I guess it helps you with diving the 4D because you get the fuller picture of the whole story and then you go and do dive the 4D experience and you get to experience a little bit of what that excavation was actually like. And I bet you like any good book to a movie. The book tells the story in much more detail than the movie ever can.
Oz Austwick: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Without a doubt. In fairness, it's going to be tricky to get a copy of this book to somebody because I don't think it's in print anymore. So it will be a secondhand copy. I've checked. You can get them. Abe books has a few.
Paul Marden: Are you going to bankrupt me?
Oz Austwick: No, no. It's not one of those secondhand books. Don't worry, it's probably cheaper than a new one. Now all the booksellers that are listening are going to put their prices up. But, yeah, comment on Twitter. Sorry, Twitter x. If you want the book and the first person will send it out to.
Paul Marden: Yeah, so go find the show announcement, retweet it and say, I want Oz's book. And yep, we will find that and we will send a copy of the book. That will be a challenge for the team behind us that do all of the behind the scenes production to actually try and figure out how you order a secondhand book and get it delivered to somebody different. It's easy on Amazon. Not so easy on a secondhand book site, so that'll be interesting.
Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, eBay Books is owned by Amazon, so, you know, there'll be a way.
Paul Marden: I'm sure that's a wonderful book, is a wonderful location. If you haven't been before. It's an amazing attraction to go and visit. They've got a pretty good website as well. I think we've said it before.
Oz Austwick: It's true. I've heard good things about their website.
Paul Marden: Yeah, they seem happy. Great to talk to you again. As always, our little fireside chats are very enjoyable. We do tend to ramble on. We've got one more episode left of Season 5, but planning is underway for season six in the autumn, so nearly we're in the home straight now.
Oz Austwick: Definitely do make sure you follow and you won't miss season six.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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Digital Sustainability and the Elephant in the Room
3 jul· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, CEO of Rubber Cheese.

Fill in the Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Competition ends on 17th July 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://aerstudios.co.uk/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesliweb/
Tools for Sustainability:
https://ecograder.com/
https://www.websitecarbon.com/
James Hobbs is a people-focused technologist with over 15 years experience working in a range of senior software engineering roles with a particular focus on digital sustainability.
He is Head of Technology at creative technology studio, aer studios, leading the technology team delivering outstanding work for clients including Dogs Trust, BBC, Historic Royal Palaces, and many others. Prior to joining aer studios, James was Head of Engineering at digital agency Great State, where he led a multi-award-winning software engineering team working with clients including the Royal Navy, Ministry of Defence, Honda Europe, the Scouts, and others.
He also has many years experience building and running high-traffic, global e-commerce systems while working at Dyson, where he headed up the global digital technical team.
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Mister attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.
The last twelve months have been the warmest of any twelve month period since records began. And while over 70% of attractions have a sustainability policy, only 12% have actually tested the CO2 emissions of their website. In today's episode, we're joined by James Hobbs, Head of Technology at aer studios and a member of the Umbraco Community Sustainability Team. James shares some easily actionable tips to reduce the emissions of your website.
Paul Marden: James, welcome to skip the queue. Lovely to have you.
James Hobbs: Thanks for having me.
Paul Marden: So we always start with some icebreaker questions. So it would be unfair if I didn't inflict the same pain on you.
James Hobbs: Go for it.
Paul Marden: Let's start with a nice one, I think. What actor would you want to play you in a film about your life?
James Hobbs: I mean, instinctively, I'd say someone like Jack Black. Just think he's really funny. A lot more funny than me. I'm not sure how much of a resemblance there is. He's got a much better beard than I do someone. Yeah. If there's gonna be an adaptation, I'd like it to be funny.
Paul Marden: I like the idea of that one. I think I'd struggle with that one. I'd struggle to pick. Yeah, you know, it's gotta be an archetypal geek that would play me in the story of my life. I'm not sure who that would be.
James Hobbs: Not John Cena or something like that.
Paul Marden: So the next one, I'd say this one I found really hard, actually. What was your dream job when you were growing up?
James Hobbs: Oh, okay. So I can answer that one easily because my parents still take the Mickey out of me for it. So when I was quite young, I told them very kind of certified. When I grow up, I want to be part time mechanic, part time librarian.
Paul Marden: Well, that's an interesting job, shed.
James Hobbs: Yeah, it's really random, I think, because I like, I love books. I love reading. Did back then, still do now. I also like dismantling things. I was never very good at putting them back together and then continuing to work. But, yeah, that was my aspiration when I was a kid.
Paul Marden: I remember going to careers advisors and just some of the tosh, they would tell you. So everybody was told they could be an undertaker and you got your typical finance jobs. But I really. I desperately wanted to be a pilot. And I was told by the optician I couldn't because of eyesight, which was nonsense. But actually, I couldn't have done the job because I have a zero sense of direction. So later in life, when I trained for my private pilot's license, I got hopelessly lost a couple of times. The RAF are very helpful, though, when that happens.
James Hobbs: They come up, fly alongside you and tell you to get out of their airspace.
Paul Marden: They don't like people invading the Heathrow airspace. And I was dangerously close to it at the time.
James Hobbs: Nice.
Paul Marden: That's another story, though. But no, they sent me from my work experience to work in the local council finance department. Department, which I don't think could be more different than being a pilot if you actually tried.
James Hobbs: I mean, it's not the most glamorous, I mean, it's important, but, you know, it's not quite Top Gun, is it?
Paul Marden: No, no. Exactly. There you go. Tom Cruise. That can. He can play me in the film of my life. James. So we want to talk a little bit about digital sustainability. So I thought it'd be quite nice for you to tell the listeners a little bit about your background in digital and more specifically the stuff that you've been doing more recently in digital sustainability.
James Hobbs: Okay, I'll give you the most succinct property history I can. So I guess my background 15, 16 years ago started off as a developer, not a very good one. And since then I've worked for a range of different sorts of organisations. So everything from a local council, national charity, global manufacturing company, and then two digital agencies. For the last ten years or so, I've been more in leadership positions, obviously have to stay close to the technology. And in more recent years, one of the big passions of mine, I suppose, or something I'm really interested is the sustainability side of digital, because I think it's interesting and that we can make a massive impact, which I'm sure we'll talk about at some point.
James Hobbs: But my current role is I'm Head of Technology at a creative technology studio called aer studios, who also share my enthusiasm for sustainability. So I'm excited to do some work there.
Paul Marden: Yeah. And my background stalking of you told me that air does some work in the attraction sector as well, doesn't it? So you work with a few attractions?
James Hobbs: Yes, that's right. Yeah, we've got a few.
Paul Marden: So there's some form here.
James Hobbs: Yeah, I would say so.
Paul Marden: Cool. One of the things that I know that you've been working with is so we're both. We've spent a lot of time in the Umbraco community, and Embraco is a content management system that a few attractions use not many, but some tend to be larger organisations that use Umbraco typically. But we've both spent time in the Umbraco community going to lots of events and talking to a lot of people. But one of the contributions you've made over the recent period is joining the Umbraco Sustainability Team. What is it, what does it do and who's involved in it?
James Hobbs: Okay, so the Umbraco has this concept of community teams, which I think is a, Umbraco is a very unique organisation. Anyway, you know this because you're part of community as well, but they have a very strong connection and link with the community of developers. And not just developers, anyone who has anything to do with Umbraco and works with it. And the sustainability team is one of the several community teams that exist. The idea is that it brings together people from Umbraco's and people from the community who have a shared passion in something relevant to Umbraco to help steer it, share knowledge, and ultimately achieve a goal. And for the sustainability community team, the goal is to, I guess it's multifaceted. Firstly to make Umbraco as a product more sustainable, which is brilliant.
James Hobbs: Secondly, to raise awareness of what organisations or individuals need to do to be able to improve the sustainability posture of whatever they're up to, which is brilliant as well. So there's a very umbraco focused side to it, but there's also a wider kind of awareness raising, educational side of it too, because this is a very, its a quite a new, say, it's a relatively new thing. I think digital sustainability as a concept completely hasn't really existed for that long, unfortunately. But now it does.
Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. And theres been some impact as well that the team has had on the product and the direction of the product isn't there.
James Hobbs: Yeah. So and again, this is, there's several of us in this community team and I want to make it really clear that like a lot of work's gone on. It's not just me doing it. So we've managed to achieved a few things. So first of all, the Umbraco website, they launched a new website a little while ago. Its sustainability posture wasn't great. So we've worked with them, people that internally built that to improve it, and that's made a massive difference.
Paul Marden: Excellent.
James Hobbs: It's gone from being dirtier than a large majority of websites to being cleaner than most, which is great. We've pulled together some documentation for covering all sorts of areas from front end, back end development, content editing and so on, to educate people on how to build more sustainable websites. And some of the team members as well have built an Umbraco package, an open source package that you can install into Umbraco, and it will advise you in terms of the pages that you're making, whether they are good from a carbon footprint point of view or not. And we'll give you a rating, which is superb because it brings that whole thing in much closer to the end users who'll be making the pages. So that was a really nice piece of work. And on top of that, we do appear on things like this. Do webinars and talk at conferences and stuff.
Paul Marden: Yeah, and I think Andy Eva-Dalefrom Tangent is one of the members of the team. And honestly it was Andy who totally opened my eyes to this whole subject when I first started seeing him talk about it and giving some stats, and we'll talk a little more about those later on. There's definitely an impact that the team is having and it's really weird, isn't it? I mean, I don't want to geek out too much about Umbraco and the community, but there is something quite special about this commercial organisation that has open source software that gets given away for free, that collaborates with the community to build a product which is easy to use, pretty cool, really effective, but also sustainable as well. There's not many organisations that work in that way.
James Hobbs: Yeah, it's unique and I love it. I think it's great. It just shows you it's possible to run a business and make money, but also have a really engaged community of passionate people and work together. I think it's brilliant.
Paul Marden: Look, let's just take a step back from geeking out about Umbraco. Then I want to set the scene. Longtime listeners will know that Rubber Cheese run a visitor attraction website survey. We've done it for two years in a row. This year we simplified the survey down to make space for some more questions. And one of the key questions we've talked about is Sustainability. We are still just over the halfway point of the survey period, so there are still lots of responses coming in. But based on the data that we've got so far, we know that 72% of attractions in the current survey have got a sustainability policy, but only 12% of attractions have ever tested the CO2 emissions of their website. And we'll come to in a minute why we think the measurement and focusing on CO2 emissions in digital is important.
Paul Marden: But whilst very few are actually testing their site, nearly half of all of the respondents so far have attempted something to reduce the CO2 emissions of their website. So there's clearly action going on, but it's not necessarily driving in a coherent direction because there's no clear benchmarking and target setting and retesting. So I think what I'd like to cover today is for us to understand that a little bit more, get under the skin of it a little bit, and then talk a little bit about how we can actually reduce the CO2 emissions, how can we actually make things different and why we might want to do it. Because it's more than just kind of the ethical, we all should be doing something. There were some real business benefits to it as well. My next question, without stating the bleeding obvious.
Paul Marden: Okay, why do you think digital sustainability matters? I mean, the obvious answer is just because it does. But it's important, isn't it, as a contributor to global warming?
James Hobbs: Yeah. So, I mean, there's lots of statistics knocking around, one of which I think it shows you the scale of the impact of the digital industry is. I think the total carbon footprint emissions of the digital industry is greater than global air traffic. And if you go and look on something like Flightradar or Skyscanner or whatever, and look at how many planes are in the air at any given moment in time, that's a pretty sobering statistic. There's lots of other ones as well, in terms of the amount of electricity that's being used, and water compared to even small countries like New Zealand. So we are generating a hell of a lot of carbon directly and indirectly, by doing all the things that we do.
James Hobbs: And every time you hold up your phone and you load up Instagram or TikTok or download something, there's a massive disconnect cognitively, because it's just there and it just works and it doesn't feel like it's using up electricity and so on, but it is. There's a whole massive supply chain behind all of the lovely things we like to do on our devices that is hungry for electricity and generates pollution and that kind of thing.
Paul Marden: Yeah. So my background was at British Airways and I was there for ten years. It really wasn't that hard to spot the fact that environmentally, that we have a challenging problem. Because when you stood on the end of Heathrow Runway, you can see what's coming out the back end of a 747 as it takes off. But I don't think I ever quite understood the impact of what I do now and how that's contributing more to CO2 emissions than what I was doing previously, which. Yeah, I just don't think there's an awareness of that more broadly.
James Hobbs: No, yeah, I'd agree. And it's complicated.
Paul Marden: In what way?
James Hobbs: I guess it's complicated to quantify the carbon impact of the type of work that we do in the digital industry, because I guess there's what we're shipping to end users, which is one thing. But most modern websites and applications and stuff are built on a big tower of cloud services providers, and all of their equipment has to be manufactured which has a carbon impact. And rare earth metals need to be mined out of the grid. All of that stuff. There's a big supply chain backing all this stuff and we can influence some of that directly, but a large chunk of it we can't. So it makes choosing your suppliers quite important.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So if you're going down the road, if you accept the premise that this is a big contributor and making small gains on any of the stuff that is of interest to us and marketers who are owning websites attractions, I think for me, probably the first step is testing and trying to figure out where you are. Do you think that's a useful first step? Is that important as far as you're concerned, James?
James Hobbs: I think it's important because with any sort of improvement, whether it's related to sustainability or not, I think quantifying where you are at the start and having a benchmark allows you to see whether you're going in the right direction or not. And improvement doesn't always go in one direction the whole time. There might be a two steps forward, one step back, depending on what you're doing. But I think without measuring where you are, and ideally regularly measuring your progress, it's hard to say what impact you've had and you might be going in the wrong direction and bumping up the wrong tree or whatever. So I think it's important.
Paul Marden: Yeah, it's super important. And is it something that marketers themselves can do, or is this something that only a sustainability consultant can do, or is there somewhere in between? Is it the techy geeks that run the website that do this? Or is it a little bit of all of those things?
James Hobbs: Well, that's a really good question. So I think this is still quite a new kind of industry. There are some tools out there that you can use to help you quantify the carbon impact of what you've got out there in the wild now. So the big one that most people talk about is websitecarbon.com, which is the website carbon calculator that was built by, I think a combination of an agency and some other organisations come up with an algorithm. It's obviously not going to be 100% accurate because every single website app, it's slightly different and so on. But as a consistent benchmark for where you are and a starting point for improvement, tools like that are really good. Ecograder is another one. Those offer non technical routes to using them.
James Hobbs: So for the website carbon calculator, you just plunk a website address in hit go and it'll run off and tell you that's not very scalable. If you've got a 10,000 page website, or if you've got a large digital estate, there are also API level services that are provided that might make that easier to automate. But again, you then need someone who knows how to do that sort of thing, which raises the barrier to entry. I think what I would like to see is more and more vendors building carbon dashboards into their products and services so that the rest of us don't have to run around and build this stuff from scratch. Azure, for example, Microsoft's cloud platform, has a carbon dashboard that is scoped to your resources. That's really interesting and useful to see.
James Hobbs: The stuff I mentioned about what we're doing with Umbraco and building a sustainability package, we're hoping to get that built into the core product. And again, the idea being that if you're a content editor or a marketer, you shouldn't have to know how to wire up APIs and do all this stuff, you should be able to see at a glance. Okay, well, that page I've just built actually is a little bit on the heavy side. Maybe I need to look at that. So I think the way to democratize it is to make it easier to do the right thing.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So these tools are giving you, they're giving you a grading? Yeah. So some of them are like a to f. I think it is for Website Carbon, Ecograder gives you a score out of 100. I think it is. Are there any advantages to one or the other? Or is it a good idea for people to use both of them and see the differences that the two different tools can give you?
James Hobbs: I think it will come down to, well, for me anyway, I think using a tool in the first place is a step forward from what the vast majority of people are doing currently, which are not even thinking about it. So in many ways it doesnt really matter. I think it will depend on what people find easier to use. I think when people start to integrate this sort of sustainability measurements into their build pipelines, for example, release pipelines. That's where you will need to maybe think more carefully about the kind of data that you're interested in and what criteria you want to look at. Because, for example, at the moment, a lot of organisations who write software, hopefully their developers, will be writing some unit tests. And if the tests fail, then you don't deploy the website that should fail the build.
James Hobbs: I think it would be good to move to a world where if your sustainability posture regresses and gets worse than similar things. There are other tools outside of those websites that we've been talking about, though. So there's an organisation called the Green Web Foundation, a nonprofit who do a lot of work in this space. And they've created a couple of tools. One's called CO2.js, which you can integrate directly into your website that can actually be a bit more accurate than the carbon stuff. And they've also built a tool called the Grid Intensity CLI. And without going into loads of horrible detail, what that is, essentially it knows when the electricity grid is at its most, what's the right word? At its most pollutant. When it's generating the most carbon.
James Hobbs: So you can use that to figure out when to run background jobs or do lots of processing. You can do it when the grid is at its most renewable. So there's things like that as well. There's lots of options out there. You can go deep as you want.
Paul Marden: Amazing. One thing that you just mentioned that I thought, oh, that's really interesting. I've never thought of that before, is the idea that you can drop a URL into Website Carbon or Ecograder and it will give you the score of that page. But actually, if you've got lots of pages on your website, you need to be testing across multiple pages. That should never occur to me before.
James Hobbs: Yeah, because I think a lot of people plunk the homepage in and go, cool. It's a. I guess it's effort versus reward thing. No one's going, well, hopefully no one's going to spend time manually entering 10,000 website URL's into a tool like that. Not least because it would probably take the tool down. There are probably better ways of doing it than that. And also, homepages are typically quite different to the rest of a website. It serves a different purpose. So I think testing a representative portion of your digital services is probably the way to go.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I've been wondering recently whether buyers should be thinking about this as something that's part of the requirements of a new website. So if you're going out to tender and buying a new website, oftentimes you and I will both see requests for proposal that have accessibility requirements in them. But I genuinely don't remember a time that I've ever seen an RFP say, “You must achieve grade c or above on website carbon across the majority of the pages on the site.” And I think when buyers start to do that you'll begin to see agencies doing more of this sort of stuff. I think baking it into contracts will make a big difference.
James Hobbs: Yeah, yeah and it's that kind of selective pressure isn't it? Clients start requiring this stuff, then agencies will have to step up. And it's unfortunate that might well be the catalyst but actually I don't care what the catalyst is as long as we’re going in the right direction. Its the main thing really, which is lessening our impact. Yeah absolutely. But yeah that whole supply chain thing is huge. That’s one way we can make a big impact is by mandating certain things. And there’s actually a certification, a green software engineering certification. It's offered for free that developers or technical architects can go through to educate them a bit on green software engineering techniques and things like that.
James Hobbs: And that's the kind of thing that hopefully in the future companies who are putting RFPs out might say, “We want your engineering team to be aware of green computing techniques” and so on and be able to prove it.
Paul Marden: Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised as well that it gets legislated for as well. So in the same way as you know, public sector bodies have got to meet certain accessibility requirements. I would not be surprised if we enter a world soon where there's a statutory obligation for these things to be done in a sustainable way as well.
James Hobbs: Yeah.
Paul Marden: So getting your act together now is a really good thing to do because there's going to be less work later on when you've got no choice but to do it.
James Hobbs: Exactly. Get ahead of the game now.
Paul Marden: So we've made the case, people have bought into it, they're going to go and do some testing and they realise that they've got a smelly, polluting, rich website. What can they do next? How can your average head of marketing, head of digital influence their website to get better?
James Hobbs: Yeah. Okay, so this is where I think there's a really nice angle here. We did talk about this earlier on, but there is a fairly close link between the things that will make doing the things that will make your website, your digital services more sustainable and kind of KPI's and metrics that will probably make it more commercially successful as well, depending on what you're doing, with a bunch of caveats that I won't go into. So, for example, sustainable websites are typically lightweight, they're fast, they're optimised for getting the right things in front of the user as quickly as possible, which can include everything from content delivery networks to optimising images to a whole host of stuff. Doing all of those things will also typically positively impact your search engine optimisation, positively impact your conversion.
James Hobbs: Because if you look at Google's guidance, Lighthouse guidance, the different things it looks at and so on, it's very clear that fast, relevant websites are what get prioritised and what Google's looking for. Fast, relevant websites that are served from locations close to the user are also likely to be sustainable. So there is a link there. And what that means is there's a built in business case for doing the sustainability stuff.
James Hobbs: So if you've got a hard nosed suite of executives who couldn't care less about the planet, not that I'm saying that's what everyone's like, but, you know, the commercial world that we live in, it's a hell of a lot easier to sell this stuff in by saying, “You know what as well, like we can do an MVP or a pilot and we're confident that we might be able to improve conversion by 0.1%, 0.5%”, whatever it might be. It's also typically a good way to save money by being smarter about what you're computing and where and when and using some of those tools that I've talked about, you can save yourself potentially a bunch of money as a business, which again, is a commercial win.
James Hobbs: So I think whilst the ethical side of it is really important, and, you know, none of us want to be boiling to death in 50 years time because we've ruined the planet. Making small changes in digital can have a massive impact because the amount of people that are using them. And I think it's easier to sell in because of the commercial.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So I'm guessing there's stuff that you can do at key stages in the design and development of a site. So what are the things that people should be thinking about during the design of the site that could make it more sustainable?
James Hobbs: So, okay, so that's a really good question. So this is a huge topic. So I can give you some examples of the kind of things you should be thinking about. So. And I guess we could divide them up into two sections. So when we're designing a website. There's how it looks and how the user experience work. There's also the technical design. As with anything, the further, the earlier you start thinking about this kind of stuff, the easier it is. Crowbarring in. It's a bit like accessibility, you know this, try and crowbar it in the last week of the project, it's not going to work. So from a design point of view, and some of this stuff is difficult to quantify its impact in detail, but things like not having massive 4k full bleed videos at the top of your webpage.
James Hobbs: So being very careful and intelligent use of things like that, because they are large, they have to be transferred from wherever you're serving them from to the user. There's a big energy cost associated with that, not using loads and loads of external dependencies on your web pages. And that could be anything from fonts to JavaScript libraries to the vast myriad of tools that are being used. The more things you're throwing down the pipe to your end user, especially if your hosting infrastructure is not set up in a distributed way, the more energy intensive that thing is. You can even go as far as looking at the color choices that you're using. So certain darker themes are typically less energy intensive. Yeah, because of how OLED screens and modern screens work. Again, very hard to quantify.
James Hobbs: And then we go down the rabbit hole of yeah, but where does the electricity that charges my phone come from? And you try and quantify all that stuff, it gets very head explodey. But there are things you can do in that sense. Some of them are easier to quantify than others. The weight of the page is a very easy thing to measure. If you keep that low, it will be easier to cache, it will load quicker for users, it will better for SEO, and faster pages tend to have better conversion.
James Hobbs: And that works whether you're selling things from an e commerce point of view or you're trying to register interest, whatever it might be, from a technical angle, I think one of the most impactful things you can do, beyond making sure that your code is optimised and is running at the right times, at the right place, is simply to consider using a Content Delivery Network. And for your listeners who aren't familiar with a content delivery network, a CDN is something that all of us have interacted with at one point or another, probably without realising in the traditional way of serving or having a website, you've got some service somewhere, in a data centre somewhere. When someone types your website address in, it goes and fetches that information from the web server and back comes a web page in the simplest sense.
James Hobbs: Now, if your website servers live in Amsterdam and your users on the west coast of America, that's a big old trip for that information to come back and forth. And it's got to go through lots of different hops, uses up lots of energy. A content delivery network is basically lots and lots of servers dotted all over the planet, in all of the major cities and things like that can keep a copy of your website. So that if someone from the west coast of America says, “Oh, I'm really interested in looking at this website,” types the address in, they get the copy from a server that might be 1020, 50 miles away from them, instead of several thousand across an ocean.
James Hobbs: So it loads quicker for the user, which is great from a user experience, SEO, all that stuff I talked about, but it's also great from an energy point of view, because it's coming from somewhere nearby and it's not having to bounce around the planet. That's one thing that you could do that will make a massive and immediate impact commercially and from a sustainability point of view.
Paul Marden: So you get those kind of performance improvement for the people all the way around the world accessing the site, but it's going to take load off of the server itself, so you might need less powerful servers running. One of the big issues that attraction websites have got is that it's such a cyclical market. The people that, you know,
James Hobbs: Spiky.
Paul Marden: Exactly when the Christmas meet Santa train is released at an attraction, or the traffic to the website is going to peak. If you can keep some of that traffic off of the web server by using that Content Delivery Network instead, you're going to be able to withstand those really peak times on the website without having to spend lots and lots of money on improving the resilience of the service. So it really is a win win win, isn't it?
James Hobbs: I think so. And also it can help potentially avoid things like the dreaded queue where you log on to a website that's busy and it sticks you in a queue and you're 41,317th queue or whatever. Exactly like you say. If you can leverage this tech to take the load off your back end systems and I, you'll be delivering a better user experience.
Paul Marden: One of the measures that I know a lot of the algorithms that are assessing CO2 emissions look at is the type of hosting that you use. So they talk about green hosting. What is green hosting? And is all green hosting the same?
James Hobbs: No. So yeah, again, this is a big topic. So I guess hosting generally runs the spectrum all the way from kind of one boutique sort of providers who can set up VMS or private servers or whatever all the way through to the big goliaths of the Internet, the AWS and Azure and so on and everything in between. So green hosting is broadly hosting that is carbon neutral, powered by renewables, that sort of thing. So in theory shouldn't be pumping more pollutants into our atmosphere than it's saving. So if we look at the big cloud providers initially, so they've all made some commitments in terms of improving their sustainability posture. And this is really good because when one does it, the other one has to do it too. And obviously there's Google Cloud platform as well and they're doing similar sorts of things.
James Hobbs: But it's almost this, I like the competitive angle of this because all it means is the sustainability posture of all of them will get better quicker. So it's good. So for example, I'll try and do this off the top of my head, you should check yourselves. But Azure and AWS and Google all have some pages that talk about their commitments and primarily they're focused on carbon neutrality and using renewable electricity. Aws have done a good job of that. So in certain AWS regions the year before last, they were completely 100% renewable powered, which is brilliant.
Paul Marden: Really.
James Hobbs: Yes. Not everywhere. Azure are going down a similar path and they've made the same commitment in terms of the year when they're going to hit renewable powered everything. They've also made commitments to water positivity. Enormous amounts of water are used during the operation of data centers and there are a lot of these data centres. So they've made commitments I think by 2035 or 2040 please double check to be net water positive, which is great. And the other thing that people don't think about, and this is I guess the supply chain thing I was talking about earlier, all those servers got rare metals in them. They've got all kinds of stuff in them thats been dug out of the ground, often in areas where there's a lot going on from a human point of view.
James Hobbs: So Amazon, AWS, Google, et cetera, they're looking at that angle too. How can they keep servers in commission for longer so they don't need to be replaced as often? Where are they getting their materials from, et cetera, all that kind of stuff, because they're not just a computing company know they're invested in the hardware and getting this stuff out of the ground and manufacturing it and all the rest of it's a very big operation. So that's something we can't influence beyond pressuring them as consumers, but it is something that they're doing something about, which is great.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. And if we go back to that point I made earlier on, buyers are in control of this. If they are choosing to include that in their contracts to buy new web services, that it needs to be green by offsetting or green by using 100% renewable power, then that drives change, doesn't it? Procurement managers drive change through that kind of thing.
James Hobbs: Yeah, absolutely. And just one final point on the greenhosting the Green Web foundation, who I mentioned earlier, the nonprofit who work in this space, they maintain a list of green web hosts. So hosts that are known to be green that you can use without having to worry too much. So it's worth looking at that as well. And it's a kind of impartial list.
Paul Marden: Excellent. Do you think this is a story that attraction should be telling? So they're going to be, we're hoping that people are going to become energised by this and they're going to want to go on a digital sustainability journey. Do you think that is that something that they could be shouting about?
James Hobbs: I think so, if done in the right way. Obviously, you've got to be careful of the sort of, we planted some trees and now everything's fine, because I don't think that's necessarily the case. But I think talking about it in the right way, which is we know we're not perfect, but we're doing something about it, and this is our plan, and being transparent about it, I think, is a good thing. I think it will also foster competition between different attractions, and everyone's a winner, really, because it will make everyone more sustainable.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
James Hobbs: And yeah, I don't see why you shouldn't talk about it. I think its something thats important. And to your point earlier about consumers being able to influence some of this stuff, I really, truly hope that the generation of youngsters that are coming up now are going to be more hyper aware of this sort of thing, and they're going to care a lot more because it's likely to affect them more than it will us. So I would like to think that they will be selecting products, services, attractions, whatever it might be that can demonstrate that they're actually doing something to lessen the impact of their operations.
James Hobbs: I've got two relatively young children, and I can already see them asking questions and being interested in this kind of stuff in a way that wouldn't have occurred to me when I was a kid, just didn't think about it. I cant change that. But what we can do is try and improve the world that were going to be leaving to the the youngs.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So, one last question for you. Is there anything. Is there anything happening in this space that you think is really cool and interesting to think about?
James Hobbs: That's a good question. I mean, like, I hope this isn't a non answer. I think the thing. The thing that is exciting me most is that more and more people are talking about this stuff. More and more people are asking questions about this stuff and I've done a lot of talks and webinars and things on this topic and the thing that really makes me feel positive and excited about it is that nearly all of them afterwards, people come up to you, they message you and say, “I just didn't realise.” The fact that we're able to raise awareness is brilliant because we can start to build up a bit of momentum. I think the thing that. I think I mentioned it earlier, products and services, building this sort of stuff into their platforms in terms of helping users use their services more efficiently, I think that's the area that I'm most excited about, because otherwise it's people kind of hacking stuff together. I think it should be a first class part of any solution, really is like, carbon impact of what I'm doing. That's what I'm probably most keen to see more of.
Paul Marden: James, thank you. One last thing. We always ask our guests for a book recommendation and you've already said you're an avid reader, so no pressure, but I'm quite excited to hear about this one.
James Hobbs: Well, there's two and I thought I'd just make the decision when you asked me the question about which one to recommend. So I'm going to go with my legitimately favourite book, which is the Player of Games by Iain M Banks. It's part of the culture series of novels and I'm a bit upset because Elon Musk has been talking about it. I feel like he's tarnished it slightly. A magnificent series of novels. I remember finishing the 10th one and sadly, the author died a while ago and I genuinely felt slightly bereft that there weren't going to be any more of them. It's a brilliant book. It's exciting. Yeah, it's exciting. It's so creative and inventive. It makes you think differently about things. It's definitely not one for children.
James Hobbs: You know, there's a lot of violence and all kinds of other things in there. But it's a fascinating book. All of his books are fascinating. My favourite author. So if you're going to, if you think about getting into his books and specifically the culture novels, that's a great point to jump in at. It's accessible and it's absolutely brilliant. I love it.
Paul Marden: That's quite the recommendation. So, listeners, if you want to get into this culture series of books, then when we post the show notice on X, get over there and retweet the message and say, “I want James's book.” And the first person to do that will get that sent to them. James, this has been brilliant. There's a couple of takeaways I want people to go and think about, one from me, which is go and test your site and then jump into the Rubber Cheese website survey.
Paul Marden: Go to rubbercheese.com/survey, tell us all about your attractions website and one of those questions will be about have you tested the CO2 emissions of your site and have you done anything about it? The more we understand what the sector is doing, then the more we can understand how we can all help and improve things.
Paul Marden: James, you had one idea of a place where people could go and find out more about this sort of stuff.
James Hobbs: Yeah, I mean, there's some organisations that I mentioned. So the Green Web Foundation is one that's got lots of interesting material on there, both tools that they've made, but also they fund research in this space, which is really important. It should be treated like a specific discipline. I suppose they're doing some great stuff there. There's the Green Software foundation, which confusingly similar name, doing some good work in this space. There's also lots of interesting groups on discord forums that are out there. I guess my main message would be we're all learning more about this field. No one has all the answers, but there are organisations out there that you can come and speak to that can help you understand where you are currently.
James Hobbs: And I definitely encourage you guys to fill in the surveys, Paul said, because the more information that we've got, you know, the better we can understand where things are.
Paul Marden: James, this has been a lot of fun and really interesting. Thank you ever so much. Thank you for joining the podcast.
James Hobbs: Thanks for having me on. Thanks a lot.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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From Lockdown to LEGO: Crafting History and Building the Future
19 jun· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, CEO of Rubber Cheese.

Fill in the Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Competition ends on 3rd July 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
Lego House in BillundSutton Hoo (National Trust)Sutton Hoo at the British MuseumThe Dig on NetflixSutton Hoo mask on Lego IdeasThe Dig: Lego version of Sutton Hoo treasure 'amazing' (BBC News)Events at The Hold Ipswitch
Andrew Webb is a LEGO enthusiast who uses bricks in outreach programmes for teams and organisations as diverse at Arm, Pinset Mason, The National Trust, English Heritage, and the Scouts. During the UK's second Lockdown in early 2021, He made the 1500 year old Sutton Hoo Helmet out of LEGO bricks and submitted it to LEGO Ideas. The build achieved international media coverage, and has since been donated to the National Trust. Andrew continues to help attractions and institutions with LEGO programmes. By day, he works as a global head of content marketing for a B2B tech company. Find out more at http://teambuildingwithbricks.com
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with Mister attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden. Today I'm talking to Andrew Webb. By day, Andrew is a content marketer for a tech firm, but in his spare time helps attractions to use Lego as a tool to attract and engage diverse audiences and enable them to interpret history and culture. We're going to talk about what it means to be an building, a model of anglo saxon helmet, and the 24 skills that are used when building with Lego.
Paul Marden: So welcome to the podcast.
Andrew Webb: Thank you.
Paul Marden: On Skip the Queue, we always start with some icebreaker questions that you know nothing about. So let's launch into a couple of those. Book and a pool or museums and galleries for your city break.
Andrew Webb: Museum and galleries.
Paul Marden: Yeah. I'd expect nothing less given what we're about to talk about. This is one from one of my colleagues, actually, who is really good at icebreakers whenever we do a team building eventually. So he said, “Would you rather have it and lose it or never have it at all?”
Andrew Webb: Oh, gosh, I'll have it and lose it for sure.
Paul Marden: Yeah, gotta be. That one's from miles. Say thank you, Myles. That was a cracker.
Andrew Webb: Do you remember the word there was a great one. Would you rather eat ten donuts or raw onion?
Paul Marden: Oh, ten donuts, hand down. I could easily do that.
Andrew Webb: I'd get onion. I'd get onion. Every time I would take an onion over ten donuts. I'd be sick after ten donuts.
Paul Marden: Oh, no, I reckon I could take that. No problem.
Andrew Webb: Okay.
Paul Marden: Okay. So we're going to talk a little bit about your adventures in Lego over the last few years. So why don't we kick off and talk a little bit about your original interest in Lego? Because I know it goes back not a long way, because that would be rude. But it goes back to a few years ago, doesn't it?
Andrew Webb: It does. I mean, like most people growing up in what we might loosely term the west, I had like, I was a kid, you know, I think most of us grew up with it like that. And then like, you know, growing up in that first age of plastics with Heman, Transformers, Lego, Star wars, all of that sort of stuff.
Paul Marden: You're just describing my childhood.
Andrew Webb: It's funny because that was. It was all sort of ephemeral, right? I mean, the idea was that the reason why that boom happened, just to dwell on why they're going plastic things. Before that, toys were made out of either tin or wood. So, you know, they were very labour intensive produce there's certainly injection moulding comes along and we could just have anything coupled with the tv shows and the films and all this sort of stuff. So we all grew up in this sort of first age of disposable plastic, and then it all just gets passed down as kids grow up. It gets given away, gets put in the loft and forgotten about. There's a moment when a return of the Jedi bedspread doesn't look cool anymore, right? You hit about 13, 14 and you're like, “Mom, I really want some regular stuff there.”
Andrew Webb: So like everybody, you know, I gave it all away, sold it and whatever, but I kept onto my lego and then fast forward, you know, I become a parent and Lego starts to come back into my life. So I'm sort of at a stage where I'm working for a travel startup and I get a press release to go to the Lego House, which if no one has heard about it, where have you been? But also it is a fantastic home of the brick, which Lego built in, opened in 2016. And it is a phenomenal temple to Lego. Not in terms of like a Legoland style approach with rides and things like that, but it's all about the brick and activities that you can do in a brick.
Andrew Webb: There is great pools and huge pits of Lego to play with there, as well as displays and all this sort of stuff. They've actually got a Lego duplo waterfall.
Paul Marden: Really?
Andrew Webb: Oh, I mean, it's a fantastic attraction. And the way they've done it is just incredible. So they blend a lot of digital things. So if you make a small fish and insert it into this thing, it appears in the tank and swims around and this sort of stuff and the way you can imprint your designs on things. I should just quickly tell you about the cafeteria there as well, just really quickly. So the cafeteria at the Lego House, everyone gets a little bag of Lego and then whatever you build and insert into this sort of iPad sort of slots type thing, and that's what you're.
Andrew Webb: So a pink brick might be salmon, a yellow brick might be chicken, whatever, and you put it all in and it recognises it all and then it comes down a giant conveyor belt in a Lego. Giant Lego box and is handed to you by robots. I mean, mind blowing stuff. This is not like with a tray at the National Trust place or somewhere like that for us to come. It is a technological marvel. Absolutely fascinating. So, of course, on the day went, it was a press preview, so there was no canteen workers, so there was no food in the box when me and my daughter, so went without that data, was a bit disappointed.
Andrew Webb: But that started that whole reappreciation of Lego, both as a toy to play with my daughter, but also as a way of using Lego in different ways. And that manifests itself in lots of different things. So currently, now, you know, fast forward a little bit. I use Lego for team building exercises, for workshops, for problem solving with organisations, and also just for having fun with adult groups as well as kids. And I think one of the biggest things we've seen since this kind of started around 2000s with the sort of adults reading Harry Potter, do you remember that was like, why are you reading this children's book type of thing?
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Andrew Webb: And then all the prequel Star wars films came out and Lego made sets about both those two things. And it kind of. I mean, Bionicle saved the company, as only AFOL will know, but it started that whole merchandising thing and adding Lego into that firmament of IP. Right. And we fast forward now, and it's Marvel and Star wars and everything.
Paul Marden: You just said AFOL. I know what an AFOL is, but many of our listeners may not know what AFOL is.
Andrew Webb: Just to go for acronyms here. So an AFOL is an Adult Fan of Lego. And we've seen actually Lego in the past five years, even earlier. I mean, Lego always had an adult element to it. And one of the original founders used to use it for designing his own house. And there was a whole architectural system called Molodux. So it's always had that element to it. But just recently we've seen, you know, almost retro sets. So we see the Lego Atari 2600 video game system from 1976, which, yeah.
Paul Marden: An original NES wasn't there.
Andrew Webb: Exactly. NES that's come out. I've got a Lego Optimus prime back here for transformers, you know, all that kind of stuff. So with what's been really interesting is this kidault or whatever, however, call it. And I think that's really fascinating, because if we think about Lego as a toy, we are rapidly approaching the age where we might have three generations of people that have grown up with Lego. Lego first came around in the very late ‘60s, early '70s. And so it's not inconceivable that you might have three generations that had Lego as a child, especially if you grew up in Denmark. A little bit different when it would come to the rest of Europe as they expanded out. So I get to this point, and I'm getting into Lego and doing all this sort of stuff.
Andrew Webb: And then, of course, COVID happens and then lockdown happens and we all think the world's going to end and no one knows. Everyone's looking for hobbies, aren't they? They say you were either hunk, drunk or chunk after lockdown. You either got fit, got fat or got alcoholic. So try to avoid those three things. And, you know, everyone's looking for stuff to do, so you have so much banana bread you can bake. And so I stupidly, with my daughter's help, decided to make the Lego Sutton Hoo helmet, the 1500 year old Sutton Hoo helmet found at Sutton Hoo in Suffolk, now in the British Museum. Out of Lego, as you do.
Paul Marden: I mean, just exactly. Just as you do. So just a slight segue. I was at the National Attractions Marketing Conference yesterday and there were two people presenting who both talked about their experiences of wacky things that they did during lockdown. There was one person that opened a theatre in her back garden and had various different stars just randomly turn up in her backyard up in North Yorkshire. And you choose to build a Lego Sutton Hoo helmet.
Andrew Webb: Lockdown, there will be a time, I think, as we look back, tragic though it was, and, you know, a lot of people died, but it was that moment when society sort of shuffled around a bit and people sort of thought, “Well, if I don't do it now, why not?” People were launching bakeries in their kitchens and serving their community and like. And that element of it. And so people have that. The good side of that, I suppose, is that people did find new outlets of creativity. And Joe Wick's yoga class is in their front row walking groups, you know, all this sort of stuff and beating beaten horsemans and learning to play the violin and dust and stuff. Suddenly we all had to find hobbies because we're all just in.
Andrew Webb: No one was going to restaurants, no one's going to bars, no one's going to gigs, nightclubs, theatres. We like to make entertainment at home. It was like the middle ages. So I decided to build the Lego Sutton Hoo helmet, as you do. And so I start this in lockdown, and then, like, I get wind that Netflix is making a film called The Dig. And The Dig is all about, I think it's Lily James and Ray Fiennes in it, and it's all those other people. And it's all about when they found theSutton Hoo helmet. And the guy who found it was called Basil Brown, and he was asked by Edith Pretty, who owned the land, to excavate these humps in the ground that were on her estate.
Paul Marden: Okay, so she owns this big estate, in Suffolk, right? And, so she can clearly see there's burial mounds in the back garden, but doesn't know what's in them. Doesn't have any clue that there's treasure locked up inside this.
Andrew Webb: I'm not even sure she knew there were anglo saxon burial maps since it was.
Paul Marden: They were just lumps of ground in the garden.
Andrew Webb: Yeah. I mean, she may have had inkling and other stuff I've turned up over the years and whatever. And some of them were robbed sort of georgian times around then. So some people knew what they were and they were somewhere excavated and gold was taken to fund the polynomial wars and whatnot. But she asked Basil Branson, he was like an amateur archaeologist, right? And so he was just like this local guy would cycle over and do. And the film goes into all that, and the film kind of portrays it as working class. Basil Brown should know his place against the sort of British Museum who are sort of the baddies in this film who think they know what. And of course, this is all set against the backdrop of war. So they escalated it all, then they had to rebury it.
Andrew Webb: And then it was used as a tank training ground, so lots of tanks rolled over it. So it's a miracle anything was ever found. But when he did find the Sutton Hoo, who told me and a bunch of other things, clasp brooches, shields, weapons and whatever, when he did find it, so people think it kind of popped out the ground as a helmet, but it didn't. And if you look at the photos, it came out the ground in hundreds of pieces.
Paul Marden: Oh, really? So you look at this reconstructed mask that's now in the British Museum, and you think, “Oh, so they just found that in one piece,” lifted out as if it was a Lego hat, you know, for a minifig. In one piece? No, not at all.
Andrew Webb: It was actually more like a big parlour Lego in the fact that it was just in hundreds of thousands of pieces. And so there was the first guy to have a go at it was an elderly architect at the British Museum who was, I think, blind in one eye. And he had a go at putting it all together. And he used an armature and clay and pins and whatever, put it all together and said, “Yes, I think it was this.” And then actually it wasn't. He got it all wrong. Lots of different pieces after some more research, and then it falls to this. Nigel Williams is another sub architect, and he was famous for.
Andrew Webb: There was a famous Portland vase that was broken in a museum by someone pushing it over as a sort of what you might call, like a just stop oil type of protest now, I can't remember what the call was, but someone smashed an exhibit. And he had painstakingly pieced all this together. He was a total dapper dude. Three piece suit, Chelsea boots, proper swinging sixties, and he had to go and put it all together. His version is the one that's in the British Museum, but he was a massive jigsaw fan. And if you think about Lego, what it is a 3d jigsaw. You get a bunch of pieces and you have to make. Make it into a 3d sculpture. So that was one reason, the dig was the other reason.
Andrew Webb: The third reason was that the relationship between East Anglia and essentially Denmark and Billand and Anglo Saxon and Jutland and all that area, I'm talking like Vikings and Anglo Saxons and invasions and all this kind of stuff against the native British, there is essentially a relationship between East Anglia, a trade relationship and a conquest relationship between them. So I built this thing and I frantically put it together and I'm late nights and just losing my marbles trying to get this thing to work. Because Lego is not designed to make, like, spherical shapes, necessarily. It's quite blocky. Right. Everyone knows this. It's the square.
Paul Marden: Really easy to make a car, really easy to make a house. A spaceship.
Andrew Webb: Houses. Brilliant. Yeah. Square stuff is fantastic. But baking, not only a sort of a semicircle, but a hemisphere, which is what essentially a helmet is. Is even harder because you have to get the Lego to bend in two directions. And so a lot of work went into that just to get the actual face piece came together quite easy. And there was once I had the scale of the pieces under the eyes that formed that sort of thing, and then I could build the nose and face. Ideally, it was going to be so that I could put it on my head. I've actually got a massive head. So in the end, I had to realign that and sort of make it into this sort of child sized head.
Paul Marden: But it's a wearable thing, right?
Andrew Webb: It is. It is wearable. I mean, at one point, it was probably more fragile than the one in the British Museum because it just kept dropping to pieces. So there's a lot of sub plates that are holding together the outer plate. So it's actually sort of. So just quick Lego terminology here. So bricks, obviously are bricks. The flat things with bubbles on are called plates and then the smoother ones are called tiles. Okay. And used a combination of these to create. There's also a technique called SNOT, which stands for Studs Not On Top. We love acronyms in the Lego community. Right?
Paul Marden: Completely.
Andrew Webb: So if you say, “Oh, man, I'm an AFOL covered in SNOT,” people know what you want to know what you mean. So after a night in the tiles, I got covered. Yeah.
Andrew Webb: Anyway, so I make the helmet, I make the thing, and then, you know, I get a lot of support from the National Trust, specifically East of England National Trust and Sutton, who site itself because it's there. It's their crown jewels. The British Museum, not so much, because they was like, we've got a billion exhibits here. No, it's just one of them. When you've got the Tippecar moon and the Rosetta stone, it kind of pales into significant. But actually, they were helpful. And one of the curators there, who was on Twitter, who sent me a link to some 3d photos, because if you. If you google it's all pictures at the front. That's fantastic. But what does the back look like?
Paul Marden: Oh, right, okay.
Andrew Webb: So actually, buried deep in the British Museum's website, in their research department, under a filing cabinet, in the back of a server somewhere, are some quite technical photographic images of it, turning every sort of 30 degrees so that. That it's documented as to what it looks. Because you got to remember that everything on the helmet is symbolic of various different things. There is symbols that mean there's a guy on a horse who's sort of fighting and all this sort of stuff. And it all has quite a lot of meaning. I can occur from different parts of history as well. So there's some sort of roman influencing things there and symbols. And so this whole thing is designed to be not only a battle helmet, but it is also because, remember, crowns haven't been invented yet. Crowns are a later mediaeval sort of invention.
Andrew Webb: So this is both a symbol of authority, headwear, like a crown, but also a weapon or a piece of defensive armour and equipment. So it has several functions in its life. So it's quite a complex piece of equipment, that this symbol of authority. So I make all this and then I also submit it to a thing called Lego Ideas. So Lego Ideas is a fantastic programme where anybody in the world, members of the public, can submit Lego Ideas, right? And they go onto a website. There's certain criteria, they have to meet a certain checklist, but then the rest of the public can vote for them. So, I mean, if Taylor Swift just stuck together a load of blocks and said, “Vote for this,” she probably hit the 10,000 threshold instantly.
Andrew Webb: But I'm not sure Lego would necessarily take that forward as a build. So there is a judging panel that. But actually, some of the most recent really fantastic sets have come out of Lego Ideas. Members of the public, and they're designing things that the Lego designers wouldn't have thought of themselves. So I think that's been kind of interesting. Sadly, Paul, we didn't make the 10,000 threshold. We did a lot of media coverage. By then, lockdown was over and were sort of getting back to our lives and all this sort of stuff. And my daughter was entering her dark ages. And so it sat in my studio for another sort of year and a half and I thought, “What am I going to do with this?” And so in the end, I thought, “Well, you know what? It's gathering dust here. I'm fed up with it, dustin it.”
Andrew Webb: And so I actually approached Josh Ward at the National Trust at Sutton Hoo, who has been a fantastic advocate for Lego and for this particular project, and I have to thank him immensely for that. And they got some money and some funding to build a cabinet and also to house it. So I donated it to National Trust and it is now on display there as part of their firmament of interpretational trail.
Paul Marden: That must feel pretty good fow you.
Andrew Webb: Yeah, it is quite good looking in there and watching kids go, “Wow.” Because Lego is one of those things instantly recognisable for kids. But certain hill as a site is quite complex for children to contextualise because essentially it's several mounds in the ground. And the helmet itself is at the British Museum. Right. They've got a replica built by the royal armouries. There were several of those. They've got those. They have loads of dress up, they have great explainers and videos and they do a lot of work to show the size and shape and things as a cast iron sculpture, to represent the boat, to show just how big it was when it was pulled up from the sea, because he's buried in a boat. So do a lot of that work, sort of that sort of work as well.
Andrew Webb: But having this extra funding in the. They opened up Edith's pretty's house now, and having this room where we've got some other things as well, like crayons and paper and other tools and drawings and colouring in and Lego and big chest of Lego just helps, particularly smaller children who, by the time they've walked from the car park around the site, and it has probably flagged it a little bit. And so just providing that little support for them, it's been a fantastic way to contextualise and another way to interpret that. And I think more and more venues could look into that. When you think, well, how else can we add stuff, particularly for children to help tell the story of this place?
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We went to. It was half term last week and went to the City Museum in Winchester. So they've got some mediaeval, they've got some Roman finds there, and there was lots of fun, but they had. It was full of lots of ways for kids to engage, so there was trails to go around, there was colouring in, make your own mediaeval shield. And all of these things are ways that, you know, my ten year old could engage with it because there's only so many glass cabinets of stuff dug up from the ground that she actually wants to look at.
Andrew Webb: I mean, I love. I love pit rivers, right, in Oxford, my favourite museum.
Paul Marden: It's crazy, isn't it? I love it.
Andrew Webb: But basically, he just went around the world nicking stuff. Right, but as a collection of objects, It's fantastic.
Paul Marden: It's deeply unnerving.
Andrew Webb: Sorry, sorry if any pit rivers curators are listening there, nick, and stuff about it, but, it is my favourite museum because it's just for kids. It's probably really kind of like, how do you tell that story? I also think there was an article in the garden recently that, you know, the cost of living crisis as well. Parents are looking for value solutions now and so I think it wasn't Peppa Pig World, it was Paddington World. And a family ticket is 170 pounds. That is a huge dent in the family finances for a 70 minutes experience. If you are watching the pennies, if you can afford that and save up for it, whatever. And I know these things are, you know, memory making and all that sort of stuff, and I've been to Harry Potter with my daughter.
Andrew Webb: That is not cheap, but it's a fantastic day out because once you're in, you spend the whole day there. If you take a packed lunch, you can save a lot of money on that, on the thing. But I suppose what I'm saying is that, you know, our museums and galleries, particularly traditionally, the what you might call free spaces, public spaces, are facing unprecedented demand in terms of parents looking for cost effective value days out, as well as funding being cut from central government and that sort of. So they have to do a huge amount with less and less for a bigger audience. And that is a strain on any institution and things like that. Other examples of places that get this.
Andrew Webb: So obviously with the Sutton Hoo helmet, the hold in Ipswich, which is Suffolk Council's kind of flagship museum in the county town of Ipswich, but instead of calling it, you know, the Museum of Suffolk, they've called it The Hold, which is a reference to the fact it's on, I think it's either because it's on the shore or it's doing sheep, I'm not sure anyway. But a fantastic space, contemporary modern space had a Lego exhibition a few years ago, borrowed my helmet, had some Lego exhibition stuff to do. And the good thing about that is when these teams have to do quite a lot of comms marketing and, you know, that has a cost as well, but often you see different demographics than perhaps would normally go to a stones and bones museum, if you know what I mean. Right.
Andrew Webb: You'll see that it makes it more accessible to the community and to different people who don't like going and looking at the Magna Carta or whatever. For some kids, a day at the British Library is fantastic. Look at all these old books for more, maybe more boisterous children. That's probably not a really great idea. So I think galleries can take a leaf out of this and think, or museums or any institution really can take a leap out of this and think, “How can we do more for less? And what tools can we have that perhaps we haven't considered before, like Lego, as a way to open up our interpretation and our offering?” So this could work in Museum of Docklands, for example. This could work in the royal armouries.
Andrew Webb: There's lots of places where if you looking to improve your children's offering that some form of lego, I mean, it ends up all over the floor, it ends up being taken away. Sometimes you've got to watch out for things like that. But that's why I always recommend, like, just the basic blocks and plates, not minifigures and stuff like that, because, you know, they just end up in kids' pockets and trousers. But I do think it is a fantastic tool for developing that interpretation piece.
Paul Marden: So I run a coding club using Lego. Okay. So I work with years four, five and six, typically. And we normally start off by the end of two terms, we will be building robotics, programming things, doing amazing things. But we start at the very beginning with just open up a box, and it is amazing what a bunch of seven, eight and nine year olds can do with a two by four red brick just given bricks. Yeah. And they will build amazing things. Yeah. And they will tell you amazing stories. And you also see real diversity in the behaviours of children, because some children, in that free play context, they do not have the skills to do that. And I had one girl recently who hasn't played with Lego, and free play just blew her mind, and she was in tears because she couldn't embrace the creativity of it.
Paul Marden: But then the following week, when we were following instructions, she was great at building from a set of instructions, You can do that from a limited palette and give them a mission. Sutton Hoo, build a, I don't know, a sword, build a shield, build something to interpret what you have seen. You're in the transport museum. Build, build. How did you get to the museum this morning? Give them something to do and then let them go. And half an hour later, you will be amazed by what they will have built.
Andrew Webb: I actually did something this at the National Archives down in Kew, where they had a kids exhibition. Well, an exhibition in the summer about wacky inventions, because obviously the National Archives holds the patents for all these things, and they've got things like Victorian top hats with umbrellas in, and, you know, all this kind of crazy Heath Robinson style stuff that, you know, forks with four sets of tines, so you can eat four times as much. It just bonkers. Really interesting things. The curators had gone through and found this wacky world, sort of. What's his name? The guy that illustrates Roald Dahl. They got illustrations and all that.
Paul Marden: Quentin Blake.
Andrew Webb: Yeah, Quentin Blake, yeah. So they had this Quentin Blake sort of stuff, and, like, there was activities. And I came down for some special stuff because they had the first Lego brick patent in the UK. When it was first launched in the UK, 1963, I think it was. That's when they filed the patent.
Paul Marden: And I bet. So that patent would be exactly the same as a two by four brick, now, won't it?
Andrew Webb: The patent was for a one by four brick. Isometrically dawn. Just three diets. Just three views with what? It was a construction toy. And then the page. Sorry. And the address was just Railway Station Billund. There wasn't like, just all the mail just went to the railway station in Billund just addressed for attention of Lego. And it's only like. I mean, it's not even a sheet of A4, It's a piece like this. And after it is something like a lamp that won't blow out on a thing, and before it's like some special kind of horse comb, but it's kind of this bonkers catalogue of just these things. But again, it was about, “Right. We did some work. The curators and interpreters looked, you know, had kids analyse the painting to think, what could it be? And look at the dates and structure. Look at that.”
Andrew Webb: And then I came out and, like, did some Lego. So we did things like, who can build the longest bridge? Who can build the tallest tower out of a single colour? Those sorts of exercises. But then also the free play was build your own wacky invention. And kids are building automatically dog washers, where the dog ran on a thing and it scrubbed its back. And one kid built something that was like a thing for removing getting pips out of apples. It was just like this sort of like this crazy little tool. They like some sort of problem that he had.
Andrew Webb: And I think what this also speaks to is developing those stem skills in children and adults and building that engineering, because I've also ran Lego workshops with explorers who I used to, I thought were between Cubs and scouts, but are actually after scouts. So I did this in my local town, here in Saffron Walden, and was like, “Oh, my God, these kids are like, 15, 16. They're not going to want to play Lego. Some of them are in my daughter's year at school, so. Hello, Amy.” And it was really interesting because we did a series of challenges with them. So the egg drop challenge, can you protect an egg and drop it from the floor? And can you build this and work together? Another good one is looker, runner, builder.
Andrew Webb: So you give everybody two sets of the same bricks, and one person is the looker, one person is the runner, one person is the builder. So the looker can't touch, but he can tell the runner. The runner can't look at the model, he can only tell the builder, and the builder can't speak back. And so this is a really useful exercise. And I've done this with teams where, because this is exactly what businesses see, engineering will build a product. Sales or their marketing are like, what the hell is, you know, or whatever it might be.
Paul Marden: It's that. It's that classic cartoon of a Swing, yeah.
Andrew Webb: Yeah. So it's that, you know, this is what the brief said. Engineering interpreter does this. Marketing saw it. So it's a great tool for things like that. Especially when you put people like the C Suite or CEO's or leaders at the end, because all they're getting is the information and it. It's there and it's how to build communications. Because in life, the fluctuations reverse. A CEO says, “Let's do this.” And by the time it's cascaded down to engineering, who don't get a say, it's not at all what he imagined so, or they imagined so, it's. It's an interesting case of using tools like that. So I did that with these kids and it was fascinating because they're 14, 15, 16.
Andrew Webb: A group of three girls won two out of the three challenges and probably could have won a third one if I felt that I couldn't award it to them again because it would just look weird. And they were smashing the looker runner builder thing. They were working together as a team, they were concentrating, they were solving problems, they were being creative, they took some time to prototype, they refined and iterated their design. They were doing all this sort of work. And it's brilliant because 15 year old girls don't often take engineering related STEM subjects at GCSE. Certainly, probably don't take them at a level and more than enough. And I think that I once interviewed Eben Upton, who invented Raspberry Pi, and he said, “We think about the eighties as this sort of like golden age of computing, but actually it was terrible. It was terrible for diversity, it was terrible for inclusion.“
Andrew Webb: And he said, “Like growing up, there was one other kid in his town that had a computer, you know, so there was no sort of way to sort of getting other people involved and make this accessible.” And part of the reason now computers have got smaller. Some of the work I did at Pytop was like trying to make technology more accessible and seeing it not just video games and things like that, but actually I can use this in a fashion show, or I can make music, or I can use this to power some lights to do a theatre production, and trying to bring the, I guess, the creative arts into technology. And that's when we start to see the interest application of technology.
Andrew Webb: And Lego plays a part in that, in the fact that it is a tool, a rapid prototyping tool that everybody is familiar with. And it is also, you know, clean, safe. There's no, you don't need blow torches and saws and those sorts of things to kind of prototype anything. You don't even need a pair of scissors, you know, it's completely tool free, unless you're using that little mini separator to get your bricks apart. And so I think that just circle back on, like, how the Science Museum or what's the one down there? Isabel Kingdom Brunel Museum and things like that. I can see those guys could be and should be thinking about, “How could we have a Lego programme?“
Andrew Webb: You don't have to have a permanent deployment like they've got at Sutton Hoo although that is great because they've got the mast there as the head piece of it. But certainly a programme of events or summer camps or summer events, because I did this with English Heritage at Kenilworth Castle as well. They were having, like, a big Lego build and the public were invited in 15-minute shifts into a big marquee and everyone got given a tile. And the idea was to build the gardens because the gardens at Kenilworth Castle were laid out to impress Elizabeth the first. And so everybody got there was like bunches of stuff and regular bricks, also flowers and this sort of stuff. And it was like, “Come on, we've got to build something to impress a queen.”
Andrew Webb: He said to kids, like, “Yeah, you've got to impress. Bling it up, like, dial it to ten.” And were just getting these enormous, like, avatar sized trees with just incredible bits hanging off it. And like, “There she has a teapot because she might want a cup of tea.” And you're like, “Brilliant, excellent. Of course she does.” And so I think that. And then they moved through. Some of the Legos were selected to be displayed and things like that. So there's different ways you can do it. You can either do it as like. And I'm a big fan of the drop in sessions because kids and parents can just naturally build it into their day rather than the pre built. My child was. We were rubbish at, like, organising things.
Andrew Webb: People like, “Oh, great. Half term, it's a chocolate thing, sold out ". And you're like, yeah, because there's 30 spaces for three and a half thousand kids who want to do it. Whereas if it's like a walkthrough or a. In groups phase through and then the activity, small kids kind of conk out after about 20 minutes, half an hour anyway. You get much more people through and much more people get to enjoy the experience rather than the 30 organised people who got up early and booked. So that's my other top tip to any institution, because it's heavily weather dependent as well. Sun comes out, everyone piles pass into the nearest sort of stately home, national attraction. All of those places can definitely benefit English Heritage. Did a really big push this half term, just gone on Lego at several events.
Andrew Webb: We had one here at Audley End, there was one at Kenilworth that I was at. There's been pairs of the ones all around the country, because again, you just need a marquee, which most venues have access to because they use them for other things or some sort of space in case it rains. And you just see someone like me and a whole massive tub of Lego and you're off to the races.
Paul Marden: Exactly. So we were talking about this at the conference yesterday about ways in which. So for many attractions, people turning up is a literal flip of a coin. Is the weather good or is the weather bad? What can you do to adapt your attraction to be able to deal with when it's bad? And then what can you do to bring people when you have made that adaptation? So, you know, you've now got a marquee and you have a Lego exhibit that you can put into there. So it's just dumping a pile of Lego and a bunch of well trained volunteers or visitor experienced people who can facilitate that, police it, little Johnny sticking minifigs in his pocket.
Paul Marden: And then you turn on your Google Adwords and show that you've got this, you know, bad weather reason to go to a stately home that my daughter would turn her nose up to all of a sudden, “Okay, we're going to go and do that. We're going to go and have afternoon tea and you're going to go and play with some Lego and see some animals, maybe.” Yeah, what can you do to attract that extra audience and adapt to the bad weather and service different sorts of people?
Andrew Webb: I think that comes down to a bear in mind. I convert some of my Lego lens rather than a venue lens. But I think speaking as a parent and someone who does this is you need a reason to go back to somewhere that you already know. Okay, so you go to Stonehenge, you go and look at the stones, you go, “Wow.” You look at the visitor centre and then it's ticked off. I mean, you see busloads of tourists. Stonehenge is at Cambridge, maybe, or Oxford people, when people do England, Lambeth, Heathrow, London Crown Jewels, Tower Bridge, West End, day trip out on a coach to Stonehenge, maybe to Cambridge, and that's it, off to Paris. Right? So parents like British people like that too. Like why go to Stonehenge four times a year? Or why go to any venue when you're familiar with it?
Andrew Webb: It's always about offering something new and something different. Audley End up near where I live, I think, is English Heritage. All through July, every Sunday, they're just doing music. So there's a string quartet or someone with a harp or maybe someone with a guitar or whatever. And you've got a book, but it's. It's not like there's 30 places and it's a bonfight. It's just like, “Oh, wow, they've done something different.” They do a really great thing. Like, they do victorian falconry, for example. So they get someone in who talks about how Victorians use falconry for hunting as a sport, but also for the kitchen table, and they're flying falcons around and doing the whole bit of meat on a string and all this sort of stuff. And everyone, like, “They do a world war two one.”
Andrew Webb: I mean, the editorial calendar for any venue's got to look like, “Go and make Christmas food. January, we're closed to kind of dust and clean everything. Valentine's Day, chocolate make you put. It's daffodils”, it's whatever it might be. And then you just build that. Build that programme in and you need. This is why I think that venues now, again, I'll just come back to that. You talk about AdWords, but that, again, is more spend. It's like, how'd you build that mail list? How do you drop into the local Facebook groups and Mumsnet and all that kind of stuff? You know, that's where you can do it organically rather than. Because people don't sit in front of Google necessarily, or think, like, what should we do?
Paul Marden: You sit on the sofa on a Thursday night trying to figure out what on earth are we going to do this weekend? Yeah, so you're completely right. The mum's net, the content marketing, is hugely important, isn't it?
Andrew Webb: Which is my job. But also it's kind of like how can institutions become part of that? When I say community, if you think about most people travel a thin hour to go somewhere. I mean, people go further afield, you know, but. But basically it's like, what? My mom turns, like, a tea and a pee. So you've got to go somewhere. You've got to have a cup of tea, visit the loos. It's all about tea. It's all about canteens and loos, basically. You could have a World Heritage Site, UNESCO World Heritage site. And it's like, how good's the caf? And are the toilets clean? Yeah, that's what people remember. Gar went hens at dawn. I was awed by the majestic. But that Looney D cleaning, you know, it's not good. It's all that people come home with.
Andrew Webb: So, you know, institutions go into place that they are trying to offer different things. Like late nights. We've talked about that. How can we use this space after hours? Because if you think about it, if your institution's open 10 till 6, most people are at work five days a week, you're gonna have students and pensioners who are gonna be not great spenders, either of those two groups. So, late nights, I went to a great one in the National Gallery when the James Bond film. I was kind of sitting royale or whatever. He's still on the top of the National Gallery overlooking Trafalgar Square, and they've got the national dining rooms there and they had Vesper Martini, everyone got a cocktail.
Andrew Webb: And then went to look at the fighting Temeraire, which is the bit where he's standing with Q, the new Q, who voices Paddington, whose name escapes me and gives him, like, a gun and a radio, but they're like the fighting Temeraire by Turner is this little thing. And so, you know, you've got to make hay out of that, right? You've got to sort of, like, do a late night, various ones. And so all it was a few cocktails in the cafe next door and are taught by the curator and stuff like that. But 30 people just looking for an experience. And so if venues are clever, of course, the dark side of this is when you get Willy Wonka world up in Scotland.
Andrew Webb: Or interestingly, some of the Lego events that have been happening at NEC have caused a massive online backslash in the community for just being exceptionally bad value for money. And so you read about these things that people have said, “Come and visit Santa's grotto, and it's just a muddy field with a tree in it,” so you've got to be careful. But I think those events, those sort of fly by night kind of institutions, don't really work. But how galleries can leverage the creativity of what they're doing? Whether they are come and paint in our, you know, our local gallery, come and have an art class, come and do that. People are looking for stuff to do that is value for money. That isn't always drink lead, you know, it's not always cocktail making or things like that.
Andrew Webb: And that comes with a whole heap of other things and dietary requirements for cookery courses and just clean up and the mess and all that kind of stuff. So I think that, yeah, canning organisations, the ones that can really think about that, and I'm happy to help organisations who want to think about this, especially through the life of Lego. They will be the ones that will start to add and build out and develop their. What you might term this whole sector needs a name. The kind of extracurricular offering, we might say, above and beyond their collection and then their traditional interpretation and if they're.
Paul Marden: Thinking of doing this. So there's a good why. Yeah, the why is you can reach diverse audiences, helps people with interpretation.
Andrew Webb: Quite cheap.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. It's a cheap way of extending your offering and diversifying what you do. You can bring in event elements to this, but how do they do it? Apart from engaging with somebody like you? And I'm going to guess there's not many people like you. So that's going to be a tricky thing for some people to do. But if they were starting from scratch, how would they go about doing this? You said earlier, “Don't go mad with buying the bricks and spending a fortune on.”
Andrew Webb: There are people like me that can do all this as well as myself. I think that the first thing is plan it. Plan what you need to do. You can't throw this stuff together. You might be looking at. Already the hold have been contacting me for a late night they're doing in September. They contacted me April.
Paul Marden: Okay.
Andrew Webb: Because if you're a creator, you're planning exhibitions, you are thinking on that long term cycle.
Paul Marden: Yeah, completely.
Andrew Webb: And so what you need to do is bake this in as part of that curational process or part of the interpretation of things at the start, rather than like, “Right, we're doing exhibit on Peter Rabbit, let's chuck in a load of fluffy bunnies or whatever.” You know, it's got to be. You've got to think about it and have it contextualised. I think the best things are. What success looks like is, first of all, you need a space. Now you can hire a marquee that comes with a cost. If you're a venue and you've got your own or you've got a hall or a stables or interpretational room or something like that, often spaces, specifically bigger ones, will have classroom spaces for school groups anyway. So that's often that can be where you can host these sorts of events. Kids are very familiar.
Andrew Webb: The chairs are all small wall colour, you know, etc. Industrial strength carpet in case stuff gets built. So locations like where you're going to stage this?
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Andrew Webb: Secondly, I think you need to think about, what do we want people to do? What is the experience? What is the narrative piece? Because you can't just say, here's a big part of Lego. Kids will just build cars and houses, right? You know, they need context. You know, if you give a kid a sheet of paper, you could draw anything. They're like, well, what? And so you need to give them a mission almost. They need a task, I think. Also think about, as I said before, keeping the tasks around 20 minutes, because actually adding the time running out jeopardy element is quite fun for kids because they'll go, “Well, I've only got five minutes left.” And often that's when it all falls apart and then they have to iterate the design.
Andrew Webb: So think about that kind of moving people through in 15 to 20 minutes cycles. We had kids at Kenilworth, that would go out the exit and just walk back around and come in the front like that. Like four or five times. One boy came in, he was loving it. So think about that. Think about how you're going to move people through the space. Think about what you need to envisage it. So the Kenilworth, for example, there was me hosting it from dawn toward dusk. We had another builder there who was helping take break it all down and put them against the model that we built. There were two members of staff who were letting people through, so just monitoring it from an entry exit point of view, walkie talkies, in case people had issues and things like that.
Andrew Webb: And think about when you're going to do it. Okay, so half term is a good one. It's a good thing to do. We saw a lot of this at Kenilworth, but I've seen other places as well, particularly half terms and things like that. You often see grandparents caring for grandchildren, right? Because parents are at work and grandparents can only walk around the site so much before they want to sit down. So sometimes have it, like, think about where they can. And when I was at Kenilworth, grandparents came in with their two grandkids, and the kids started playing and I was like, you could join in, too. Oh, no, I don't want it. You know, they were almost like, “I can't do this. It's like, come on, get in, get in. Come on, grandma. Come on. I'll show you how it works. “
Andrew Webb: By the end of that session, they were memory making. I then took their photo with their phones, they'd have this sort of grandparent. But, you know, you always say it like, my grandfather taught me to fish. Like Sean Connery says in the hunt for red October. This sort of moment where sort of, it's a Hollywood trope that grandfather knowledge is sort of passed on type of thing. Right. And so you can see that where you could have this, almost either the reverse of that, of kids showing grandparents, but also they're all having this event outside of the parental unit. So it's a new type of experience. It adds value, it gets people to play with their grandkids.
Paul Marden: Priceless.
Andrew Webb: So I think that's kind of an interesting way. So think about when, think about where and think about what will be my three sort of tips for any institution looking to put this together.
Paul Marden: You gave one the other day which I thought was priceless, which was, don't give them wheels.
Andrew Webb: Oh, yes.
Paul Marden: Don't include the wheels.
Andrew Webb: Take the wheels out of any sets, unless you are the Transport Museum or the, you know, a car based museum, because kids will do wings as well. I'd probably suggest taking those out because kids have just built cars. Some kids have just built cars, you know, even if you give them a mission. Unless that is the mission. The other thing that I would think that venues could do as well as sort of all day events, because it's quite a time drain, you know, on staff and this sort of stuff, but it is a value. The other thing you can think about is one off evening events for adults. Yes, I've done this. I did this at my local add them shops. Bricks, beers and bubbles challenges supercompass teams. Think of it like a pub quiz with brick is the answer.
Andrew Webb: So build me a thing that does that kind of thing. Teams all get together, you can race them, you can see who goes the furthest. You can do all this stuff. And the hold is what I'm doing at the hold in September. I did it at the hold a couple of years ago. And what was interesting was that we had quite diverse groups of adults. We had just couples who were clearly AFOLs and were like, “Yeah, I'm going to go to that.” We had a group of friends. One of them had just come back from years travelling and they didn't want to go sort of straight to the pub and just interrogate him about his travelling, whatever.
Andrew Webb: They kind of like, “Well, we wanted something to do where we could have a beer and have a chat, but were doing something else whilst we’re doing that.” And that's the joy of Lego. Your hands are doing the work and you're almost like the back of your brain is doing the work and you're like, “Oh, yeah, yeah. Before you kick them.” And the concentration levels are there and then you can kind of get into that state of flow. And so they were just having this lovely chat, had a beer, talking about stuff, but also memory making in terms of when he came back from his travelling. So I think that's really important.
Andrew Webb: Did you know that this is your brain, right? And then your brain on Lego, there are 24 discrete skills that are happening in your brain. So Lego research this, things like fine motor skills, cognitive sort of thinking about things, future planning, my favourite emotional regulation that is not going, “Oh, my God, it's not working. And smashing all to pieces.” So I've seen this as well with children, is that when you give them a Lego, if you gave them jelly and a football, they'll all just. They're a high energy kind of things, right? And that's fine, great outdoors, kids want to burn off energy. Here's a load of balls. Go crazy, right? Or ball pits, trampolines, bouncy castles, those sorts of things. When you get on Lego, what actually happens is it's very hard to be anarchic, to use a wrong word, but a word. It's very hard to be anarchic with Lego because you can't really do it.
Andrew Webb: And so you can get a group of kids together and they'll almost self invigilate. And at one point, I ran it at a local toy shop and the parents are all hanging about and like, “I've never seen them so quiet.” They were just in the state of flow. And so, I think, you know, again, back to the. Back to the explorers and the scouts, that was one of the best sessions that those kids had done as teenagers because the reason was they were given permission to play with Lego. They still had the muscle memory from when they were smaller children. They were solving. They weren't just being told to play with Lego, they were actually solving engineering challenges. How can you design a bridge that will take this weight? How can you protect an egg? How can you think about this?
Andrew Webb: And so you need to think about the challenge and the what. You need to think about that, the where and you think about the when, as I said, and get those right. You can have a very exceptional visitor experience for not a huge amount of effort. It's not highly costly, it's not highly technical, it's just a bit of elbow grease and a bit of forward thinking in terms of what we might need. And I think that parents appreciate just that minute away where they can. It's almost like a 20 minute babysitter, right, where they can just go, “Don't touch that.” You know, you're walking around a stately home, “Don't sit there, don't touch. Mind the lady.” All that kind of no data that parents give out institutions, they can just take a breather and check their phones and whatever.
Paul Marden: And the kids are just having an amazing time.
Andrew Webb: Yeah. And the kids are happy. And at the end of the day, as a parent, we all do our best and you just want, you know, them to be playing with something screen free, getting along and learning something. And, you know, that is the win. That is the ultimate takeout. You can layer on your own institution in context and rev up the visitor experience, bring in new visitors, attract a more diverse group of people that perhaps wouldn't normally come to a Regency Rococo style villa or whatever it might be, then that's all to the better, because, you know, you can start to use this in your planning and you can do what Suntton Hoo did? And go, right, well, we've done this and it's really worked.
Andrew Webb: And then I can apply for funding for it and I can expand and I can make it permanent and then I can sort of say, well, this now becomes a tool and a string and arbo for our educational. It doesn't have to be split between visitor attractions and development. It can, you know, you can split it between several parts of the institution and use it in different ways, use it for educational purposes as well as visitor experience. So the world's your oyster with a bit of thinking.
Paul Marden: With a bit of Lego and a bit of thinking.
Andrew Webb: Bit of Lego, yeah. A few bricks and a couple of tricks and you're off to the races.
Paul Marden: Andrew, this has been brilliant. Thank you ever so much.
Andrew Webb: You're welcome.
Paul Marden: I've got one more question for you before we finish. Now, you bottled this earlier on when I said we always have a book recommendation from our guests. And in spite of having the fullest bookshelf I've seen in quite a long time, you've bottled it on a book. But you did offer me a favourite movie. And so what would be your movie recommendation of choice?
Andrew Webb: My go to movie would probably be Withnail and I, Richard E. Grant's first film. Every line has came down from God on a tablet. I mean, it is just. Yeah. Richard Griffiths as Uncle Monty, Paul McGann. It's just one of my favourite films and, you know, cult classic that no one's really. Well, people have heard of it now, but again, they even make stuff out with Alan Eyright. So you can go and watch a screening of it at the farm at Crow Crag up in Penrith, you know, and everyone dresses up and everyone comes with Mister blathering sets tea and I come on holiday by mistake and Jessie says, Danny.
Andrew Webb: And, you know, fortunately, for better or for worse, I know these are tough times, but people try and find the fun in things. They try and at the end of the day, everyone's looking for a good time, whether we're children or an adult. You want something to just have a laugh and take you away for a moment. And if films and culture but also experiences can do that, then that's all for the good.
Paul Marden: Well, look, this is going to be a challenge, but listeners, if you would like a copy of Andrew's film recommendation, then when we release the show message on X, if you can retweet that and say, “Give me Andrew's movie”, then the first person that does that, somehow I will get the movie to you. It might be on VHS, it might be on DVD, but somehow we will get you a movie.
Andrew Webb: I found a CD the other day from a bar I used to go to in Clapham in the noughties and late ‘90s. I said to my mate, look, I'm great, put it on. And I went, “I can't.” I haven't got a CD player anymore. I had to go dig through a box somewhere in the study to find a portable CD player that plugged into my computer that could. By the end of it, we're just laugh. Forget it.
Paul Marden: Andrew, this has been wonderful. Thank you ever so much.
Andrew Webb: You're welcome. Cheers.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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- Lyt Lyt igen Fortsæt Spiller...
- Lyt senere Lyt senere
A surprise election, a dip in the sea, and all the glass cases in the world
5 jun· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

Fill in the Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast.
Competition ends on 19th June 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
Skipton Town Hall https://skiptontownhall.co.uk/accessibility/
Noor & Katu https://noorandkatu.com/
Survey mentioned by Paul: https://www.euansguide.com/media/0uyju30y/final-23-euansguide-results-pdf.pdf
Kids in Museums Open Letter: https://kidsinmuseums.org.uk/2024/05/dear-change-makers-an-open-letter-from-the-kids-in-museums-youth-panel/
Rubber Cheese 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey - https://rubbercheese.com/survey/
https://carbonsix.digital/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/
Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn’t know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile.
https://rubbercheese.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/thatmarketingbloke/
Oz Austwick is the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, he has a somewhat varied job history having worked as a Blacksmith, a Nurse, a Videographer, and Henry VIII’s personal man at arms. Outside of work he’s a YouTuber, a martial artist, and a musician, and is usually found wandering round a ruined castle with his kids.
Transcription:
Oz Austwick: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Oz Austwick. It's been a busy few weeks in the visitor attraction industry and the world at large. So in today's episode we're going to take some time to talk about what's happening, including the recent M+H Show, the upcoming election, the Family Friendly Museum Awards, and of course, the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey.
Oz Austwick: So, Paul, where have you been recently?
Paul Marden: So as we are recording, it is currently half term week, a little bit of a damp half term week, which is a bit of a shame when you're in mid May, but went to Longleat at the weekend and went specifically to go and see their Steve Backshall live event, which is happening at the moment. So for those of you that don't have kids watching CBBC at the moment, Steve Backshall does the deadly 60 telly programme, which is kind of animals and nature on CBBC. And Steve brought out some of the best animals on his event at Longleat. So it was really cool. We got to see some. We saw an armadillo, we saw massive, great python and a wolf. He brought a wolf out on stage, which was pretty awesome.
Oz Austwick: Oh, wow.
Paul Marden: Yeah, that was cool. So there was lots of oohing and ahring and everybody enjoyed it. Lots of fun, even though it was absolutely gushing down with rain whilst we were there on Monday. So we didn't. Typical english style. We did not let the weather get in the way of a good day. What about you? Where have you been recently, Oz?
Oz Austwick: We had our bank holiday day out on Sunday, not on Monday. So we had amazing weather. We threw all the kids in the car and drove down to Dorset to Swanage, where I used to spend my childhood holidays. And the place that went was Swanage Pier. I love it there. I spent my childhood, you know, fishing off the pier and swimming in the sea. Sadly, the hotel I used to go to doesn't exist anymore. They knocked it down and turned it into a sewage treatment plant.
Paul Marden: Attractive.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. But it was absolutely amazing. The sea was very cold indeed. I did get in, had a bit of a swim, as did my eleven year old. The others all chickened out and just sat and watched. But it was lovely, you know, two p machines in the arcades.
Paul Marden: Oh, I love it. Was it the pushers on the shelves? Coin drop ones? I love that. Yeah, gotta be the two p ones. Can't afford the ten p ones. That's too rich for me.
Oz Austwick: Who can? I mean, that's vast amounts of money to win anything in those.
Paul Marden: So Swanage for me just brings back memories of geography, field trips. I remember going there for about a week whilst I was at secondary school donkeys years ago, so.
Oz Austwick: Right, well, we used to drive down from Yorkshire, where I grew up, and it would take all day to drive down to go to Swanage. I mean, it was, yeah, when we were there. Absolutely amazing. And the hotel was lovely before they knocked it down, obviously. So I have very fond memories and, yeah, nothing has happened to spoil those memories, thankfully. A very popular place for us to go.
Paul Marden: Lovely day trip.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, it really was. It really was. So the M+H show, let's talk about that, because that happened and it was quite a thing, wasn't it?
Paul Marden: It really was. I had such a lovely time, so it was my first time at M+H show. It was. It was lovely event. They pitched it as the big meetup and it really was. I mean, it was absolutely jam packed with people. There were lots and lots of people there when I was there on Wednesday and so many people that I know that I was bumping into that were either running stands, presenting, or just being there and enjoying all the great content and meeting people. It was just such an awesome event. How was it for you as your first big attractions event?
Oz Austwick: Absolutely, yeah. It wasn't just my first M+H. It was my 1st event. And, yeah, I was gobsmacked, to be honest. It was big. More than anything. I'm just genuinely surprised at how many companies sell museum display cases.
Paul Marden: There was a lot of glass cabinets on show.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, there really were. And they were beautiful. But, yeah, I mean, how do you differentiate yourself in that market, I wonder?
Paul Marden: I would differentiate myself by going around and putting my greasy fingers over all the competition's glass and show how beautiful my cabinets could be.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, just take my children. They'd make a mess of the glass within seconds of arriving. So did you get to any of the talks, any of the presentations?
Paul Marden: I did, actually, yeah, I saw a few presentations. I thought they were really good this year. It was quite clever being given your headset that you could wear so that you could hear the presenters. Few people that have been in previous years telling me how great that was this time, because that was a new introduction this year.
Oz Austwick: Can I just throw a slightly different perspective on that? I turned up late to one presentation and I didn't have the little box and the person who was handing them out was on the other side and couldn't get. So I missed it completely. Yeah, I mean, it's a great way to make sure you can hear what's going on.
Paul Marden: It's tough. Isn't it? I felt it was a little bit. So when I had a similar experience where at one point I didn't have one, and it feels a little bit. It's hard, but it answers the problem they've had in previous years, where it was the same layout, where it's a big, noisy hall. And this did make it quite possible for people to be able to hear what was going on. But I would imagine as a speaker on stage, that's quite tough talking to people when you know they can't hear your voice. I don't know. I don't know how I'd feel about that. But there was one presentation that really stuck in my mind, and that was Spencer Clark from ATS and Steve Dering from Direct Access Consultancy. And they were talking about breaking down barriers and basically just giving a collection of essential accessibility tips for attractions.
Paul Marden: And it was just such a great presentation. I always think that if I'm presenting at an event, if one person walks away, having heard one thing from me, I feel like I've kind of done my job. And to be fair to Spencer and Steve, they absolutely nailed that. I walked out of the room at the end of that, fizzing with ideas and walked away. And straight away that evening, I was writing a pitch for a client and things that I'd learned from what they were talking about made it into my pitch presentation. It's directly changing the way I think about accessibility. So I thought that it was a great achievement.
Oz Austwick: And especially for that specific talk. It's not just a talk that says, “Oh, you can make some more money, do if you do this, or you can improve your response rate if you do this.” Actually saying, “This is a way you can help people.”
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: And that's now changed the way that Rubber Cheese works and that. What an amazing result for them.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. There's a few things, few numbers that stuck in my mind and I kind of. I went and read about them afterwards and we'll put some links in the show notes to the survey that these stats are based on. But there was. There's two things that they said which really stuck in my mind. 59% of disabled people say, if a venue has not shared its disabled access information, I avoid going because I assume it's inaccessible. And 77% of disabled people say I'm more likely to visit somewhere new if I can find relevant access information about the venue. So these numbers, they caught me straight away and they got me thinking and made me realise that making a venue accessible is more than just meeting the website accessibility guidelines, which is kind of a key focus for us in the industry.
Paul Marden: Lots of organisations will want to make sure that they follow the WCAG guidelines, the accessibility guidelines. Anyone that has a large amount of public sector funding will have a statutory obligation to meet those targets. So that's a big focus of people's attention. But just making it so that a screen reader can read your website, or making it so that you've addressed colour accessibility for people that are colour blind isn't enough to make the attraction itself accessible. So if you don't share the content about how your venue is accessible, people will assume you are not accessible. It was an eye opener for me. They gave a really great example. They talked about Skipton Town Hall up in Yorkshire, and they've got a webpage on their site all about the accessibility features of the building. And it was rich with photography.
Paul Marden: So, you know, it's got pictures of all of the access points into the building, what the door looks like and which part of the building it gives level access into. They had pictures of all of the toilets that they've got and how they're accessible. They're fortunate. They've got a changing places toilet. So this is one of these accessible toilets with a large bed and usually with the equipment to be able to move somebody out of a chair and onto a bed to be able to change them. They've got photos of all of that on the website. So the accessibility information is right there. It's really clear and it gives loads of really good evidence that demonstrates this is somewhere that takes accessibility seriously.
Oz Austwick: Yeah.
Paul Marden: Interestingly, this didn't come out in the talk itself, but I found it interesting that the Craven Museum is based in Skipton Town Hall and they won the most accessible museum and the overall winner of the Family Friendly Museums award last year. And we interviewed them back a couple of weeks ago, back in March. So it kind of shows you that making places more accessible for disabled people makes them more accessible for all sorts of people as well. So, you know, it can make it more accessible for families with young children, it can make it more accessible for the elderly, it can make it more accessible for people with temporary access needs.
Paul Marden: If you've breaking your leg or something like that, you know, you're not permanently disabled, but you need access into a building and making places more accessible to you for disabled people widens the access into the entire venue itself. I've since had a quick look at some of our clients and they're all writing about this. People are putting lots of information onto their website about this sort of thing. I saw Eureka had a special microsite all about it and Mary Rose have got information on their website about it. So this is really important content. And for me, sitting and listening to them talking, going back and thinking about it is really. It's really caught my attention and made me think and do things differently, which, you know, I feel like that's what these sorts of events are all about. Really?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what a fantastic result for the event. If it opens up the industry to people who were struggling to access it, then, yeah, job done, right?
Paul Marden: Yeah, completely. What about you?
Oz Austwick: There were a few highlights for me, but I think one of the things that stood out the most was getting to meet some of the kind of movers and shakers within the community meeting Gordon from ACE, what a lovely guy. Had a fantastic chat to him and it really struck me how there are so many people and organisations who exist within the sector purely to try and improve the whole sector for everybody. I like it anyway because I've got a real interest in the historical side of things, museums and stately homes and castles that really talks to me and I take the kids out to places, so it's nice to know, but to actually be part of an industry where everyone's trying to help each other, I think is really lovely.
Paul Marden: It really isn't it? Yeah. There were so many people like Gordon that you met at the event and they just make you feel good, they make you buzzy. There's a huge kind of collective recharge of batteries and fizzing of ideas that comes from these sorts of events, it was just brilliant.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. That's what networking should be, right?
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I was going to do a shout out for one person that had a stand. I've got a card that I picked up. This is a lady called Sonya Varoujian and she runs an organisation called Noor and Katu. They import these handmade crocheted little animals, finger puppets and toys and things. I went straight over to those because my daughter is crocheting like mad. She got taught by grandma a couple of months ago. It blows my mind. I have absolutely no idea what's going on as she's doing this and all of a sudden, out the other side comes a squid. But this little organisation Sonya was living and working in Armenia got the idea when she returned back to the UK and now imports these toys and they're for sale in a bunch of different attractions.
Paul Marden: I just thought it was really lovely that these were fair trade, they were nice, creative things that I know my daughter would absolutely lap up at an organisation and it's completely sustainable and makes a big difference in communities that are not well served.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely. And I know that you, like me, almost certainly get dragged into gift shops at visitor attraction sites on a regular basis and there comes a point where you've seen the staff and to have a company out there that's not only doing good things, but providing something a little bit different, a little bit unique that you can buy in a gift shop and actually feel like you've done something worthwhile and bought something that isn't just going to fall apart in a couple of weeks.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Oz Austwick: I think that. Yeah, yeah, it would be really nice to see more things like that. So, yeah, go and check them out if you're listening or watching.
Paul Marden: Did you see any talks yourself that caught your attention?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, yeah, there were a couple that sprung to them. But firstly, I wanted to just briefly mention the talk that I didn't get to watch. I'm a YouTuber, not a massively successful one, but I'm part of a YouTube community. So when I saw that the Tank Museum was doing a talk about how they've used the YouTube creator community to boost their own social media and their own income, I thought, “Fantastic, I'll go along and see that.” Because my brother in law, who's a far more successful YouTuber than I am, was actually part of that. He got invited down to make a video about his favourite tank. So I turned up and obviously I thought I was on time. I was too late. It was hugely crowded, there was no seats, there was no space. So I was stood in the kind of the corridor.
Oz Austwick: It's not really. Is it a corridor? The path, the walkway, I don't know what you call it. And, yeah, got moved on by the venue staff because.
Paul Marden: Loitering in the corridors.
Oz Austwick: We were effectively blocking the way through. And rightly so, you know, they need to make sure access is maintained. But, yeah, I didn't get to see that talk, which I was a little bit sad about, but a couple of talks that I did get to see, which stood out, was the Bloomberg panel discussion hosted by Kripa Gurung. They're doing some amazing work. And the fact that it's a completely philanthropic organisation, I think is quite amazing if you haven't come across what Bloomberg are doing with Bloomberg Connects the app. But, yeah, that was really interesting. Talking about what they're doing, how they're getting organisations online, having the museum at the home and English Heritage there, talking about what they're doing with Bloomberg Connects was great.
Oz Austwick: But I think, if I'm being honest, my favourite talk was the Castle Howard Christmas events talk, partly because it was really interesting, talking about the marketing and how they've created this amazing Christmas event that has a real following and people come back year after year and they've done that on purpose and it's been hugely successful. But Abby from Castle Howard, she's just hilarious. She's been a guest a couple of times, talking about how she hospitalised an old man on his very last ever day at work and then how she sacked Santa. Just, yeah, if you get a chance to go and see their talks go along, because it's not only entertaining but informative, too. So, yeah, that's probably the highlight for me.
Paul Marden: Cool. I saw a lovely presentation. Longtime listeners will know that I'm a Kids in Museums trustee. So I went over and watched the Kids in Museums Youth Panel and it was really interesting because they had a summit focused around young people and their needs in museums back last year. They had a webinar where they talked about it a couple of months ago and I was blown away by these people who are part of the Kids in Museums Youth Panel. You know, young people at early stages of their careers, some of them are at uni still. Some of them are in the early stages of their first jobs and just talking so articulately about their experience of museums, what they think museums should change, what's going well, what could be done better?
Paul Marden: And so I wasn't disappointed when I saw them speaking in real life. They did a cracking job talking about the museum summit and what they think are the issues in the museum. So there was a couple of stats I pulled out of it. Over 90% of young people don't feel considered as an audience and represented in museums, which that blows my mind, because we talk a lot about audience with the people that we work with, and the needs of young people are central to many of the conversations that we have about audience. So there. That made me think, “Oh, is there a problem where the conversations that do get had are not being discussed in the right way? Is it a problem of perception?
Paul Marden: Is it that young people don't perceive that they're being considered when in actual fact they are, or is it a lack of involvement and so they feel like it's being done to them rather than being done with them?” Yeah. Food for thought. If most young people feel that museums don't consider them as part of their audience, that's problematic.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. Isn't it? I mean, I'd be amazed if the people that were running the museums had the same opinion. I suspect they clearly think they are doing things for young people and children, but maybe they're just not asking those young people what they want.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So there's a few things that the youth panel suggested could be done. So loads of kids go on school trips to museums. But have a guess what you think the minimum age is to go unaccompanied into a museum in some museums?
Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, I'd expect that it would probably be 16. That feels like a reasonable age.
Paul Marden: There are museums where you have to be 18 to go unaccompanied into the museum.
Oz Austwick: Why?
Paul Marden: You can go and get a job, you can go and pay your taxes, but you can't go into the museums on your own because you're not a responsible adult. That's interesting. And I use that word with a great deal of misuse.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. I just struggle to work out how you could justify that.
Paul Marden: I know.
Oz Austwick: Well, obviously there are one or two museums out there where you probably need to be 18 to go in and have a look. Yeah. I mean, in general, why 18?
Paul Marden: Yeah, I think standards of behaviour, you can expect people to behave in a certain way, but that doesn't. That's not dependent on age, that's dependent on your behaviour.
Oz Austwick: And the sort of teenager that genuinely wants to go into a museum is probably going to behave pretty well when they're in that museum.
Paul Marden: Yeah, you'd think. So the next thing I might play into this, but one of the things the youth panel want is to see more youth groups being represented in the decision making process in museums, so that they better represent communities and highlight career pathways for young people. Including more working class histories in museums would help people feel more represented. I thought that was quite interesting. We've been to a few recently where we did not necessarily see stories of our background being well presented at the museum.
Oz Austwick: Yes.
Paul Marden: Enough for both of us to have noticed it and commented it as we were wandering around.
Oz Austwick: It's interesting because some do it really well.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: And coming from a historical background with a focus on arms and armour, there's a real issue that the sort of arms and armour that have survived from the mediaeval period are the unusual ones and they're the ones in the museum. So that's what people see. And you kind of assume that this fancy, ornate, decorated, enamelled armour is pretty standard, but the bog standard stuff didn't survive and maybe that's the issue when you're looking at furniture in a room, in a house, the fancy furniture is the one that survived because people cared about it. It wasn't being used on a day to day basis.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. I don't know, but you're absolutely right, it does give you a slightly skewed view of what’s actually out there.
Paul Marden: Yeah. Look, if you're interested listeners, in finding out more about what the Kids in Museums Youth Panel are looking to achieve, they've just published an open letter to changemakers within the sector where they talk passionately about what they think the sector needs to do to change. There's a lovely video that goes alongside the open letter where these young people are using their voice to be able to advocate for change. It's great, it's really interesting and I highly recommend everybody goes and watches the video and reads the letter and then does something about it.
Oz Austwick: So, anything else from M+H that we need to talk about?
Paul Marden: The lovely meal and drinks afterwards. The very lovely Bala McAlin and Stephen Spencer, both once of these parts, were hosting an event Wednesday evening, I think it was, which was absolutely lovely. Well attended. Drinks flowed, food came out. It was delightful. Very much appreciated.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. And I have very mixed feelings about the fact that I decided to leave a little bit early.
Paul Marden: But you got home at a reasonable time and I didn't manage to drag my backside in the front door until about half midnight. And it wasn't because I had a wonderful night, it was because I spent most of it in Waterloo station trying to get home.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. A bit of an issue with the train.
Paul Marden: Yes. I would much preferred if I'd actually stayed at the drinks event and then dragged myself into Waterloo later once they'd actually sorted themselves out.
Oz Austwick: So I think at this point we probably need to talk about how the government have ruined our plans for the next few months of podcast content.
Paul Marden: Yes.
Oz Austwick: Because we've been thinking for a little while that it would be a really nice thing to do to talk to the main political parties about their idea for the visitor attraction industry in the future. And obviously our hands been forced a little bit.
Paul Marden: It hasn't it? We're not the only ones. I think quite a few people were caught on the hop a little bit when Rishi announced the general election on the 4th of July. So, yeah, events, dear boy, have somewhat overtaken us, haven't they?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, just a little. So, yeah, we're probably not going to do that if for no other reason that the Labour Party shadow minister isn't standing again, for all the right reasons. But it does mean that there's a bit of an imbalance there and if we can't talk to all the parties equally and get their ideas, we probably shouldn't talk to any of them.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Oz Austwick: That being said, we can still talk about it, right?
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. The lovely people at ALVA Bernard, who presented at M+H and talked about this very subject, amongst other things, they've done a lot of policy work and have prepared some thoughts around what they think is important to the sector, around strengthening the visitor economy, protecting arts and culture and heritage and supporting the natural environment, whilst at the same time looking after all of those people that either work or give up their time to support the sector. So, yeah, there's a few things in there that I thought it was worth us just touching on, because I think it's really important that we think about what the future of the sector could look like in just a very few weeks time as the country changes. They've got some interesting thoughts.
Paul Marden: Unsurprisingly, the sector would probably benefit from some reduced taxation and there's quite a number of different areas within which ALVA think that the taxation burden on the sector could be lessened. And similarly, they've also got ideas around how funding for the various arts councils and support organisations around the different home nations would make a substantial difference, especially around capital funding would make a big difference to the sector. But there was a few very specific arts which jumped out as me, as being kind of. They really meant something to me. So there's one. ALVA says, “They ask all the political parties to ensure culture, life, performance, arts, heritage and nature are experienced by every child and young person and are within the national curriculum.” Yeah, I think this is so important. Yeah, I think I've talked on the podcast before.
Paul Marden: This was one of the big COVID victims. So many schools during COVID had to stop taking kids out and experiencing the outside world and going to day trips and the like. And I just. I think it is so important. It's really hard for many schools. They've got such a burden around meeting the curriculum, budget cuts, all of the calls on the staff time is so hard for them to prioritise day trips. But I've seen him in my own daughter's school. Just the powerful impact it has on the kids. They're a school where the kids barely spend a whole week in class. They're usually out doing something outside of school, which I just think is brilliant. And I got to tag along with them. A few months ago. We went to London.
Paul Marden: We did the trip to the Science Museum, took the kids up on the train and on the tube, which was, let me tell you, quite scary.
Oz Austwick: Did you manage to bring them all back?
Paul Marden: Counted them in and counted them out and it was all good. It was all good. But then went into parliament and that was just brilliant. Taking a bunch of ten and eleven year olds into parliament and bless them, it was the tail end of the day. So they were all shattered. But they were so completely engaged by it. They saw Priti Patel walking through the central lobby. They saw all of these different ministers, their advisors, and they got to sit in the chamber of the House of Commons and seeing debate going on. It was all about Horizon scandal. It was just. It was such a brilliant day trip for the kids and how much does it enrich them.
Paul Marden: Yeah, okay, me and Millie go to these places all the time, but, you know, there might be one or two kids in that school for whom this is the only time that they get to experience a day trip into London and see one of the big national museums and go in and enjoy parliament. I never got to go into parliament when I was Millie's age.
Oz Austwick: No. And I think it's really important to say that. I mean, both you and I live in the southeast of the country in a relatively rural and affluent area and that even here with the schools that we've got, they're struggling to do this. And then when you look at what the inner city schools are having to deal with and some of the northern cities and northern towns where they're really struggling with population poverty up there, how are those kids getting similar opportunities?
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: And the fact is they're not.
Paul Marden: No, no.
Oz Austwick: And that's something that I can't agree with ALVA more on this, that this needs to be prioritised because this is the future.
Paul Marden: Yeah. Another area where we've had direct experience, from conversations we've been having recently is around supporting local authorities in their care of civic collections and culture. I mean, you've spoken to so many places recently, haven't you, where cultural budgets are just being eviscerated.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've always had a kind of a love of finding those little obscure rural town museums because you find some amazing things in them. My local museum, it's a tiny little market town and they've got like a special area of Egyptian relics. They've got a mummy in a sarcophagus in this little museum that's what, four rooms? But they've got no funding. And there's so many times we're talking to museums like this. They know what they need and they know what they want, but they just don't have the money to be able to do it.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Oz Austwick: They come to us looking for a website and they're just struggling for budget to do anything.
Paul Marden: Yeah, which is where things like that Bloomberg Connect app comes in, because when you look on the Bloomberg Connect site, you've got big national museums like National Portrait Gallery in there using the Connect app. But there were some little ones in there as well that I saw, you know, small local town museums just like the ones that you're describing in there using that app.
Oz Austwick: I was looking through the app last night and my eye was caught by, I think it was Beverly Town Hall. I was born in Beverley, up in the East Riding of Yorkshire, and I sort of thought, “Oh, I'll have a look at that.” And I just got drawn in and it was just this amazing experience. I didn't even know Beverley had a town hall that was open to the public, nevermind that had a collection that you could view through the Bloomberg Connect app. So, yeah, I guess maybe a little bit more in the way of awareness, but it shouldn't be down to a philanthropic organisation like Bloomberg to keep these museums and collections going.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So look, the ALVA kios of the political parties is up there on their main website. Really worth going and looking at. As the manifestos are published, you'll be able to see what the political parties are doing. There's already some information on the various different party websites around what they want to do within the culture and tourism sectors. But I think we've got a few weeks yet to wait until we see the actual cast iron commitments come out in manifestos. So that'll be interesting to see the direction that takes.
Oz Austwick: And I suspect we're going to talk about this a little bit more over the next few episodes, perhaps.
Paul Marden: Yeah, maybe. The other thing I will mention, this is a shameless plug because I work as a trustee at Kids in Museums. We're working on this flagship awards ceremony and it is absolutely delightful event lots of people enjoying themselves doing amazing work and there is a sponsorship opportunity. So if you're like us, one of those kind of sector supporting organisations that serve the attraction sector, and you'd like to support the good work of Kids in Museums and be associated with that amazing event, give me a shout, because I can point you in the direction of the right people to talk to get that sponsorship in place and I know it will make a massive difference to them. Have you been busy recently? What have you been up to?
Oz Austwick: Do you know what? Weirdly, it's been a little bit busy. Yeah. I mean it feels like it's always a little bit busy, but it's been specifically a little bit busy because as of yesterday we've launched the third annual Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey.
Paul Marden: Excellent.
Oz Austwick: That's quite a mouthful, isn't it? It'd be really nice to find a catchier name for it than that.
Paul Marden: I always talk about naming is the hardest problem in computing, but naming is the hardest problem in marketing, I think.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, let's be honest, what it's actually known is pretty much new survey brackets two. So it's the third one. The first one was a bit of an eye opener, the fact that there wasn't anything already out there and we did this and it was amazing. The second one, we tried to refine it and we got some really nice, interesting data. This is probably the first time we've been able to sit and look at it and go, “Right, okay, now we've got a couple of years worth of results. We can look at what we actually need to be asking and what's just out there because we want to ask, because it's interesting and what information we're not actually getting.”
Oz Austwick: So we've really cut back on the number of questions and I think it's probably safe to say that isn't going to have a massive impact on the quality of the information that we get, but it's also allowed us to add in a few extra little bits as well. So yeah, we're talking about sustainability and the use of AI and yeah, I'm really excited.
Paul Marden: Yeah.
Oz Austwick: I haven't actually looked to see if people have started filling it.
Paul Marden: I can't look, I can't look. I just kind of want to look through my fingers.
Oz Austwick: I'm not sure I want to know, but yeah. So if you are listening to this, if you've got this far into the podcast and you work at a visitor attraction, please go and fill this in. There's a link in the show notes. There's links on LinkedIn, on X. Everywhere we go. There will be a link for this. And if you can't find it, go to rubbercheese.com. And it's right there at the top of the homepage. There's a link.
Paul Marden: Yeah. rubbercheese.com/survey, slip that right in there.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. I think one of the things we've done differently is the advisory board. We talked about this a little bit in the last episode. We did what an amazing thing to have these guys on board. I think they've saved us months of work by just being clever.
Paul Marden: They've improved the quality of what we've done. Asking us, what on earth are you asking that question for? Those answers are exactly the same answer. Can't you make it easier for me to know what I need to gather before I type my data in?
Oz Austwick: Exactly, saying, “Oh, well, I wouldn't fill it in because you don't tell me what I need to do.” Okay, well, we'll do that. It's not a problem. Yeah. How amazing. So thank you to them and to Expian for sponsoring the advisory board.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. And we're working through now focusing on the kind of engagement plan to increase more people. And then, you know, whilst we have a lull as people are going to be filling in their survey, we'll start planning, looking at the data, seeing where the stories lie. We'll talk about that in some future episodes, but starting to gather together what the final report looks like and the stories that will be told. And, you know, we're really grateful to Convious for sponsoring us on the digital survey and the digital report that will follow and then a bunch of webinars that will run afterwards. So, you know, the call to action for us is get in there, find your data, read the guidance notes, go and fill in the survey.
Paul Marden: But then once you've done that, come and talk to us because, you know, we'd love to know what you would like us to dig in to. It is amazing how this rich resource of data that we've got and people ask us questions that we've never even thought of, and we look at the data differently and we find a different story in there. So without your input, without you telling us what's interesting you, with what's bothering you, what's challenging you, we don't look at the data properly and we don't find those stories for you. So come and talk to us.
Oz Austwick: Is this how it feels to kind of run a museum, to be the custodian of this amazing thing and just want people to come and engage with it. Yes, because that's kind of it. You know, we've got this amazing data and it's got all of these wonderful stories within it that are relevant to anyone in the industry and we just want to talk about it. So, yeah, please fill in the survey, talk to us about it and, yeah, with any luck, this one will be bigger and better than the last two.
Paul Marden: There we go. Couldn't ask for more than that, could we?
Oz Austwick: No. Before we go, because we're going to wrap up relatively soon, there's one thing that I noticed that we failed to do last time and we talk a lot about giving away a book and I think we even said we were giving away a book in the last episode and then never mentioned a book. So, Paul, do you have a book that you'd like to recommend?
Paul Marden: Do you know what, Oz? It's funny you should say that. I absolutely do. I have this book Delivering the Visitor Experience by also previously of these parts, Rachel Mackay, who is, I believe, at Hampton Court Palace, and she's written an amazing book about what it is to create, manage and develop unforgettable vista experiences at museums. I don't want a museum, but it was really interesting for me to be able to read this book all about the process that people that do run museums go through to develop, craft and tell that story and give that amazing experience. It's a brilliant book. Heartily recommend it. And if you retweet the show note saying, “I want Paul's book”, then you too could get an amazing copy of Delivering the Visitor Experience by our friend Rachel Mackay.
Oz Austwick: Amazing. Thanks very much.
Paul Marden: Slightly out of breath because it will be edited out, I'm sure, but I had to run up the corridor and go find the book and take it off the shelf and bring it down because although I was completely organised with all my stuff from M+H show, did not have my book recommendation. Well, there you go. I think that just about wraps us up, doesn't it? It's been a busy few weeks for us with M+H show and all that's going on and that doesn't look to abate over the next few months as we get the survey into shape and find out what's happening in the sector.
Oz Austwick: So I think it's only going to get busier.
Paul Marden: It is. How is this your first time actually hosting?
Oz Austwick: I think I prefer this one. Maybe that's because it's not my first one. Or maybe it's just because I.
Paul Marden: Because you're power hungry and you took the captain's chair.
Oz Austwick: Make it so. Yeah, definitely Picard rather than Kirk. But that's because he's a West Yorkshire man.
Paul Marden: Is he really? You've got too much hair to be Picard. I'm sorry.
Oz Austwick: I'm not wearing my Star Trek uniform.
Paul Marden: On that bombshell. Thank you very much, mate.
Oz Austwick: Thank you.
Oz Austwick: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on X for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE!
Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversions
Download the 2024 Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report
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How the 2024 Visitor Attraction survey is different, and a new face at Rubber Cheese
22 maj· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
Show references:
https://rubbercheese.com/survey/
https://carbonsix.digital/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/
Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn’t know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile.
https://rubbercheese.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/thatmarketingbloke/
Oz Austwick is the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, he has a somewhat varied job history having worked as a Blacksmith, a Nurse, a Videographer, and Henry VIII’s personal man at arms. Outside of work he’s a YouTuber, a martial artist, and a musician, and is usually found wandering round a ruined castle with his kids.
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Martin. In today's episode, I'm joined by my new co host, Oz Austwick, the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese. Following the success of the Rubber Cheese Visitor attraction website survey in 2022 and ‘23, we're going to look back at how the previous data has stories still to be told and look forward to what the 2024 survey has to offer.
Paul Marden: Welcome, Oz. Welcome to Skip the Queue. This is one of our regular Skip the Queue episodes where the Rubber Cheese team take a little bit of time to talk about some of the work that we do.
Paul Marden: And I think this episode we want to talk about the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction survey of websites that we've done for the last couple of years and what we're planning to do in 2024. So that's going to be a nice conversation for us to have. But we always start these episodes with a little conversation about places that we've been recently. So we spare each other the indignity of the icebreaker questions and talk about an attraction that we've been to recently. So why don't you tell me, Oz, where have you been recently?
Oz Austwick: The most recent one was that my wife and I took the kids to Farleigh Hungerford Castle in Somerset. It's English Heritage castle. Absolutely lovely. Nice and rural. I mean, it's just beautiful, lovely ruined castle. There's a fantastic chapel with mediaeval wall paintings. But, you know, I mean, if you like historic sites, if you like castles, it's just a great one.
Paul Marden: Wow, that sounds good.
Oz Austwick: How about you, Paul? Where have you been recently?
Paul Marden: I have been to Portsmouth Historic Dockyard with my daughter. We've been a few times to Mary Rose and really enjoyed that. But this time went. We had an explorer pass, which meant we could go all over the dockyard. So went and saw lots of things. We saw the victory being refurbished and went on board. They've got a lovely old submarine on the other side of the harbour, which is a great place to see. But the bit that really captivated my attention whilst were there that made me think, “Oh, I've got to remember this one to talk about on the podcast” was they had some students there doing exhibition from the university and they were marine biologists and it was just such a lovely opportunity.
Paul Marden: They had microscopes, they were talking all about plankton and different types of microorganisms that you find in the water. But my daughter's ten years old and she loves going to museums because I drag them to them all the time. She loves learning about this sort of thing. What I liked about it was you had some 18, 19, 20 year olds who were exposing themselves to kind of a work experience type model, but talking to the kids and showing them. And the kids were learning as they were going. They got lots of opportunities to look through microscopes. They were doing some lovely drawing and art of the microscopic organisms that exist in the water.
Paul Marden: And I just thought, I can talk about amazing jobs and what you can go and do in science and what you could do in different of roles in real life, but there's something about somebody that's only maybe ten years older than you telling you what they're learning at the moment and what learning in a university context looks like and the cool stuff that you get to do. And as amazing as I am, I'm not quite as impressive as a 20 year old.
Oz Austwick: And modest too.
Paul Marden: Amazing, dad. I say it all the time, but it's not as compelling when I do it. So going to the museum and meeting these young people that are only a little bit older than Millie is and seeing what they do was just. It was such a lovely opportunity. And I know that work experience at museums is quite a controversial subject because I know a lot of people, it can be exclusionary for some people. The only way that you can get into a role is to work unpaid as a volunteer in a museum to get into a role later on. But I just loved the idea that we had these students that were local telling the story of what the University of Portsmouth does in marine biology and how these two major institutions came together.
Paul Marden: And you could just see Millie's eyes light up as she learned about this amazing stuff. It was brilliant. I loved it.
Oz Austwick: Awesome. Do you know what? I've not been down since. God, it can't have been that long after the Mary Rose landed there. It's a long time ago. Yeah. I was a much younger Oz at that point.
Paul Marden: I think you might notice that the Mary Rose looks substantially different maybe than the last time you went.
Oz Austwick: Do you know what? It was effectively an aircraft hanger full of water when I was there. So, yeah, definitely go down. And while we're here, I just want to say. And I might check out their lovely new website, too.
Paul Marden: Why? Do you know somebody that might have worked on that?
Oz Austwick: Yeah. Funnily enough, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic agency, but let's leave it there.
Paul Marden: Yes. So you've just turned up on the podcast and I'm talking to you and.
Oz Austwick: Yeah, nobody knows who I am, do they?
Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. So why don't you, Oz, just take a few minutes to tell the audience who you are, what you do and why you're here.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. Okay, so obviously I'm Oz. I am Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, also at Carbon Six, the sister agency. I originally came on board as kind of Head of Marketing and then when Kelly decided to move on, I've taken on some of her role. Obviously you've taken on some of her role as well. So my background is in social media, video first as a content writer in SEO. I've worked in technology, I've worked in healthcare. I've done all sorts of things over the years and I've always kind of found myself back in the world of digital wherever I try and go. So for me, as somebody with a real passion for history and historical sites, there's a story there, maybe for another episode.
Oz Austwick: But I love the idea that I can work in an agency doing what I do well for venues and organisations that I really love. And I think that's quite a special thing, to be honest.
Paul Marden: It's a bit of a privilege, isn't it, to be telling the stories of some of the places that we're working with.
Oz Austwick: To be able to go for a meeting and sit and have coffee with somebody in the middle of one of the most glorious, historically significant buildings in the country. It's just. Yeah.
Paul Marden: For a history buff like you, that. That's pretty good.
Oz Austwick: It is, yeah. I'm all about the history.
Paul Marden: So we are today going to talk a little bit about the Rubber Cheese visitor attraction websites survey and we run that now for a couple of years and we just want to talk a little bit about some of the plans that we've got for the year ahead. But maybe let's recap, what have we done in the last two years and a little bit about the survey in the last year?
Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, I guess there'll be people listening who may not have come across the survey before. So I think from a broad context point of view, a few years ago, Kelly, who was the original founder of Rubber Cheese, was looking for industry standard data and it turned out that there wasn't any. And at that point she was faced with two options to either just go, “Never mind, and walk away” or go, “Oh, well, I better do something about it”. And she thankfully took the latter route. So for the last two years, this is year three, Rubber Cheese has put together a survey and sent it out to as many visitor attractions as possible and asked them for their views and their objective figures as well, related to their digital presence.
Oz Austwick: So whether that's the marketing side of the website, whether it's e commerce, whether it's ticketing, we want to know it all and then we combine it all together, do our best to analyse the data and publish a report. Obviously, the world of digital changes very rapidly, and obviously when you do something like this for the first time, you're not going to get it quite right. So it's evolved year on year and. Yeah, here we are. And it's evolving again. Right?
Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. So we had, you know, more than double the number of respondents last year compared to the first year. We had some amazing people that came together in London for a launch event in the first year, and then we had a great webinar last year launch.
Oz Austwick: I just want to interrupt briefly at this point. If you were at that launch event, then we have already met. I'll leave it there.
Paul Marden: Yes, part of the Rubber Cheese family before you were even part of the family. Yeah. So we've had success in the first two years and we've used that report ourselves and we know lots of other people have used it as well. So we've had some lovely conversations with attractions who have used it as part of their pitch process to try to identify what good looks like and how to select other people to work with across their different digital presence. So be at the marketing site, the ticketing engine or whatever. But I think one of the things that you and I both said is that it's a challenge, isn't it? Because we can go looking for stories and then we can tell stories that exist in the data that we find.
Paul Marden: But it's not quite the same as when people ask us questions, because they tend to ask us questions we haven't really thought of. And then we go looking at the data in a different light, don't we, and find just amazing things that exist in the data.
Oz Austwick: It's a constant surprise to me, both how different every attraction is and yet how they all have certain similarities. You can group them together and you can see these similarities in the data, but most sites, this is something we came across recently. We were going to a meeting with a fairly well known venue that's got two or three different strands to what they do. So we spent a bit of time looking at which of those different strands they actually fit into, because it can be really hard to know how to improve your digital presence, how to make your marketing more effective, if you don't even really know where you're starting from and what the data in the survey allows anyone that wants to access it to do is to see where they fit.
Oz Austwick: And you may think that the country park is what you are and the house is second, or you may feel that, I don't know, maybe the adventure playground or the science centre, whatever it is, whichever of those. You may think that you're one, but the data says you're the other and at that point it's not a problem. But at least you need to understand, if you don't have the information, you can't make any decisions that are going to be helpful in the long term. And I think. Sorry, I know I'm talking a lot here, feel free to shut me up.
Paul Marden: That's what we're here for.
Oz Austwick: I think it's a huge surprise to me that more people aren't coming to us and asking us about this.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Oz Austwick: This survey isn't really a cynical way for us to make money. The survey pretty much loses us money year on year, but it's really valuable and I think every time we've done it, the conversation has been, “Do we need to do this again?” And the answer is, well, “Yeah, we do.” Because not only is it a valuable thing to do year on year, but to show how things have progressed and to show those evolving patterns. I think it's really important and it's a phrase I use all the time, but the rising tide floats all the boats together and if we can put this information out there and it helps everyone improve, then great.
Oz Austwick: You know, as an industry, those that are part of the industry, those like us that sell into the industry, we all get better at the same time and I think that's a really important point.
Paul Marden: Absolutely. And there's loads of things that we're doing this year as we launch the survey to try to improve it so that, you know, you've just been talking about those attractions that are many different things and definitely in previous years we've made it really hard for those attractions that are many different things to be able to identify what they actually are. And that ended up being lots of people saying, I'm an other attraction and our biggest category was other, wasn't it? So we want to try and make it much easier for people to identify themselves.
Oz Austwick: I hate Other as a category. I realise it's entirely our fault, you know, if we don't give the right categories and we give you the option to say Other, that's what you're going to tick, but it's the least helpful thing we could possibly do because what does Other actually mean? So we've tried really hard to be more accurate in the choices that we offer in the survey this year.
Paul Marden: Yeah. So should we talk a little bit about what we're going to do this year?
Oz Austwick: Yeah. Yeah, let's do that.
Paul Marden: First of all, we're really fortunate this year that we've got two amazing sponsors that are supporting the survey and the work that we do. So we've been really lucky that our friends at Convious have come back again for the third year running to sponsor and support what we do. And they're sponsoring the digital report and the launch webinar that we'll have towards the end of the season and show everybody what the results are that we found. So we're really appreciative of the work that the team at Convious have done. It's not just a financial sponsorship, it is a real collaboration that they bring to the party and they really do help us a lot.
Paul Marden: And then this year that we've also been joined by the team at Expian who are a ticketing platform and they are sponsoring our new Advisory Board, which we'll talk a little bit more about later on. But we asked for people in the sector to come and join us, to advise us and in order to be able to make that a reality, Expian have sponsored that advisory board throughout the entire year. So that's. It's brilliant. It's great that other people are seeing a real value in the thing that we've been doing for the last couple of years and want to sponsor us going ahead and making it better year on year. So thank you to both Convious and Expian for supporting us this year.
Oz Austwick: I think just at this point, again, I'd like to interject and maybe a little shamelessly say that there are still a couple of aspects of what we're doing with the survey and the report that it would be really nice if we could maybe get some help from another sponsor. So if you'd like to maybe get involved, we're thinking about an in person launch event like we did in year one. That's a big deal to organise, to run, to fund. So if maybe that's something you'd like to help with, get in touch, that'd be great.
Paul Marden: We are always happy for new people to join the party with us and help to support the good work that we will trying to do here. So, yeah, there's more information about that on the website at rubbercheese.com/survey.
Oz Austwick: Survey yeah, I think it's maybe worth mentioning the advisory board in a little bit more detail. I know that it's something that you've been really keen on for quite a while now that we try and make it clear that this isn't a digital agency that builds websites for the visitor attraction agency telling you how to have your website and that you should come to us. It's actually an objective report of the digital landscape and that if we can make that more objective and more transparent by getting together a group of experts then we absolutely should.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. We've got an amazing group of people that have agreed to join us. We have more people asking to join than we have the capacity to be able to include in the board, which is humbling in and of itself. And those people who offered, who aren't part of the board this year. That doesn't mean to say we don't appreciate you and we'll be really keen to find other ways in which those people can help us going forwards.
Paul Marden: But yeah, we're looking for the board to kind of provide advice and guidance help us. You know, going back to what you were saying a minute ago about people helping us to identify what's important to the sector so that we then go and follow the data, we ask the right questions, we look deeply into the data, we understand where the interesting stories are and then reflect that back to the sector as a whole in the final report. That's so much easier when we've got a board of people that are advising us what matters to the heads of digital of the attractions around the country. So yeah, we've also got some really helpful advisors from different sector support organisations. So suppliers like ourselves who know what the larger sector are talking about in different areas.
Paul Marden: And those people as well will be helping us to understand what are the right questions to ask. How should we ask them? They'll also be helping us with testing the survey before it goes out into the wild and supporting us with understanding what the answers are at the end of it and what they think are interesting. So I'm really excited about the Advisory Board and totally appreciative of everybody volunteering their time to join that board and giving us that advice. So that's a really exciting thing for us to be doing this year and totally appreciate the work of Expian to sponsor that.
Oz Austwick: Absolutely, yeah. Couldn't agree more.
Paul Marden: So there's some other things that we're going to do, aren't there, in terms of trying to improve things?
Oz Austwick: We've got some goals. Are they ambitious? I don't think they're that ambitious, to be honest. But, yeah, I mean, obviously the most important thing when doing something like this and repeating it on annual basis is that we want to make it more useful. We want to make the data more valuable to the people that need it. So we've spent a lot of time going through the previous survey and looking at what we asked and what we got in response to those questions, whether we got the information we thought we would and whether that information is even of any help to any. I think we've cut it down fairly significantly this year, I think.
Paul Marden: Yeah, we've taken a red pen and scored through quite a lot of the questions, haven't we?
Oz Austwick: Yeah. I wonder if perhaps maybe people were getting a little bit tired of the survey by the time they got towards the end, because it was really long and it's still quite long, but I think there's very little in it that isn't really, or at least to me, feels really valuable to be able to say, “This is where I am. And if I can compare where I am to the wider industry around me, that would be a helpful thing to be able to do.” And I think pretty much every question does that. We're hopefully going to grow the sample size because year one to year two was a really significant step up. If we get the same size step up or even the same percentage step up, I mean, that would be absolutely incredible. I'm not sure we will, but I think.
Oz Austwick: I think we need to keep growing it. We need to get it to more people and make the data in itself more relevant. Because obviously, if you've got a tiny sample size, it's really difficult to draw any conclusions from that data. But if you've got a huge sample size, then you can say that the averages across this are probably relevant. And that's information that I should know.
Paul Marden: I talk about that a lot, don't I, when I'm slicing and dicing the data that, you know, sometimes it can be hard to draw conclusions because there's insufficient data there and it could easily be chance that gives the answers that you get.
Oz Austwick: Well, absolutely. And it's so hard to look at it and think, is that cause or effect? You know, we can say that there's a pattern or is it just fluke?
Paul Marden: Exactly. I think some of the questions, some of the data is illustrative of what the wider sector looks like. So when people answer questions about the content management system that they use by far the most popular one was WordPress. I'm willing to bet good money that is fairly illustrative of the outside world.
Oz Austwick: Yes.
Paul Marden: Yeah. You know, WordPress is the hands down most popular content management system on the web, so it's not. It's hardly surprising that it is then the most commonly used one in attractions. But some of our numbers around ticketing systems, e commerce systems and some of the conversion rate information as well, I would not be surprised if that is being skewed because the sample size isn't necessarily big enough. So the more people that join, every person that is submitting their data is making a substantial difference to the quality of the answers that we give afterwards. And I also think that kind of the intersectionality of stuff. So when you're talking about historic houses that have got animal based attraction at the same place. Yeah.
Paul Marden: When you start to zero in on those smaller sample size or smaller groups, they get so small that it's very hard to draw any conclusions. If we can make the sample size bigger, then those intersectional groups will still be fairly small. If there's a Venn diagram, there's not a lot of overlap in some of these groups and they will be pretty small groups, but you'll still get some interesting answers rather than a sample size of one, which some of the smaller groups do drill down to that at the moment. So the more people, the better. And the more diverse types of attractions that fill in, the better.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. I think it's probably worth recognising that some of the groups that people fall into are going to be really small.
Paul Marden: Yes.
Oz Austwick: I mean, how many safari parks are there in the UK, for example? It's not a lot. And if only one safari park fills in the survey. So if there's a call to action from this bit, it's like, please fill it in.
Paul Marden: What else are we going to do? So we talked about simplifying the survey. We want to increase the sample size. We wanted to introduce some new themes as well this year.
Oz Austwick: Yes. The survey is designed to represent the digital landscape of the visitor attraction industry in the UK, but obviously there are things happening in the digital world that we've not spoken about in the survey. For example, AI, there's a big. A big amount of development. There's a lot of AI stories hitting the news. People are using it for all sorts of things. We've never asked any questions about it at all. Does anybody use it? Is it relevant? What's going on out there? We don't know. So we're going to be asking a little bit about that. And the other main theme that we've not really looked into before that we're going to be asking a little bit more about is sustainability. It's become really clear over the last sort of six months or so, looking at the conversations we've had with venues.
Oz Austwick: Everybody's doing stuff, not everybody's doing the same stuff, not everybody's doing the right stuff, but everybody's doing something. And it would be really nice to know what's standard. And obviously there's stuff on site that you can do at the attraction itself, but there's things you can do around the website and the hosting and the way that your digital presence works. So we're going to be asking a little bit about that as well.
Paul Marden: I think in every conversation I've ever had about digital sustainability, I learn a little bit more about the subject. And I can remember there was an amazing speaker at the Umbraco conference a couple of years ago that spoke, who's now a friend of mine, and he just told some amazing stories about the impact of digital on CO2 emissions. And it was, you know, I used to work in an airline. It was fairly clear to see that airlines are fairly polluting. You can see it coming out the back of the plane. But I don't think I'd ever really seriously thought about digital technology being a major contributor to climate change in the way that I now understand it to be. So, finding out what other people are doing, we're willing to bet that quite a lot of attractions will have a sustainability plan.
Paul Marden: Fewer will have done any sort of benchmarking of their digital platform, and fewer, again, still will have done anything to actually reduce their CO2 emissions. But that's just instinct. I'm really interested to understand what the actual numbers are at the end of this, because once we start measuring it, we can start improving things as an industry.
Oz Austwick: I think it's fascinating, and that goes back to exactly what Polly was talking about when you interviewed her two episodes ago I think.
Paul Marden: Something like that.
Oz Austwick: About the fact that, you know, we all start from somewhere and you can look at this and think, oh, I'm actually not doing a great job, but you've got to be honest about it because you've got to know where you are. You know, everything that comes to us is completely anonymised. We don't give out anybody's data. We give out, you know, the raw data in a way that means that nobody can track anybody else. So you nothing that you say is going to put, you know, anything that you're maybe a little bit unhappy out there. But if doing this survey forces you to think about what you're doing and look at it and think, actually, maybe I do need to do this, then brilliant. You know what an amazing achievement that will be.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So we want to enable people to give better answers. So we're going to reduce the number of category type questions that we've got and drill down to real numbers. We'll get better understanding of conversion rates. And there was some other standardisation that we wanted to do, wasn't there?
Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we noticed that. And again, it's going back to this, trying to reduce the fact that you can just tick other when we're trying to look at what sort of attraction are you when you're filling in the survey. In fairness, we've got a pretty good idea of the different attractions there are out there and we created a fairly good list, but we still got quite a lot of Others. So were kind of looking at how we can improve that list and we thought, well, why not standardise it with a list that's already out there? And it turns out that VisitBritain has a perfectly good list, which is really quite comprehensive.
Oz Austwick: So we're using their list for attraction type rather than ours because it allows us to standardise the data a little bit more and hopefully people will already know where they fit. But I think we've also allowed people to tick more than one option this time, which previously we didn't. If you were a historic home that also had a safari park or an adventure playground or something, you'd have to pick which of those am I? And obviously, you know, for the big attractions around the country and for an awful lot of the smaller ones, we would look at them and go, “Oh, they've ticked that. That's odd. I wonder why they've done that.” Whereas now you're able to say, “Actually, I'm three different things.” And that's great, because again, it allows us to be a little bit more granular.
Oz Austwick: And if it turns out that maybe there are other attractions that have the same breakdown of what they do as you, that will become clear, hopefully.
Paul Marden: So one of the big areas that we want to, we're excited to grow into is that we'll be having a US focused survey for the first time, supported by our friends at Convious.
Oz Austwick: Lots of Zs instead of Ss in that one.
Paul Marden: Yes, we've had to do some localisation and that will be published alongside the UK version of the survey. And we'll have a US report and a UK report that we'll be launching at the end, thanks to our friends at Convious. But we'll also have versions of the survey localised for attractions in the EU, because there was actually, last year, we got quite a number of european attractions submitting and we think that can improve when the survey tool itself is focused on the EU and is, you know, the numbers that we've got in the survey are denominated in euros rather than in pounds. So, yeah, that's increasing. The number of international responses, especially in North America, is super important for us this year.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. And I think it's worth saying that it's quite a potentially valuable thing to do as well, because if we can look at the surveys and say that, weirdly, the UK sites tend to rate here, but us sites rate here for something, why is that? What do they do differently in the US that allows them to be more successful in this instance than we in the UK are here? You know, with any luck, either, we'll be able to say no. Globally, this is all pretty much on a par. So you can see where you set in the world, rather than just in, say, Shropshire. But you could also say, right, well, these guys are doing better. Let's look at what they're doing and try and emulate that and improve what we're doing to bring it in line with what we know is possible.
Paul Marden: So lots to change, lots of improvements that we're making. Pretty big ambitions to grow the survey in a number of different ways, but not in the number of questions that are there. So hopefully, it will take less effort for people to submit their responses this time and the survey will be launched around the time that this episode comes out. So you'll be able to go onto rubbercheese.com/survey and follow the links and submit your data, which is pretty exciting for us. We'll be sat there watching the responses rolling in. I got very excited last year, watching people respond.
Oz Austwick: I can't wait, genuinely. I know that sounded sarcastic, didn't it? It wasn't supposed to. I genuinely. I'm quite excited about this. Yeah.
Paul Marden: You might need to work on your sincerity. There's an area of improvement there are.
Oz Austwick: Recording this at the end of the afternoon on a Friday, so, you know, this is as good as you're gonna get, I'm afraid.
Paul Marden: So. We're really keen for people to go onto the website and fill in the survey, but there's other things that you want as well, isn't there, Oz?
Oz Austwick: Well, for me, I want people to talk to us. I want people to talk about the survey. I want them to talk about last year's survey and the rapport. I want people to come along and say, “Look, it'd be really interesting to know where I sit it in this. This is our attraction. This is what we think. Is it true?” Get in touch, give us a shout, let's have a chat. You know, let's have an excuse to get together with a coffee and a laptop and look at some spreadsheets. But, you know, if there's something that you want to see from the survey moving forwards, because I think it's probably safe to say this isn't going to be the last one we do.
Oz Austwick: Then again, let us know if there's things that we aren't talking about and you've got a better viewpoint and you can see that there's a gap in what we're asking. Please let us know because we can't do this by ourselves and we're not really doing it for ourselves. So the more people talk to us, the better, really.
Paul Marden: So if you want to talk to us, all the usual social channels that we normally talk about, but also send us email at [email protected]. Both Oz and I will get that. And really keen to spark the conversations and see where it goes from there.
Oz Austwick: Yeah. And if we bump into each other at an event or you see me, give me a shout, I'll buy you a coffee. I mean on him, obviously.
Paul Marden: Of course. So your episode number one on skip the queue, how was it for you?
Oz Austwick: That was all right, actually, wasn't it? Yeah. Okay. I mean, hello. Let's, let's see. Well, I enjoyed it.
Paul Marden: I've enjoyed it. Not quite the same as talking to Kelly, but not the same. Not better or worse, just different.
Oz Austwick: I'll take that as a compliment.
Paul Marden: You take it however you like, mate.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm.

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Data driven social media at the Royal Institution
8 maj· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, CEO of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast
Competition ends on 22nd May 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://www.rigb.org/
www.linkedin.com/in/shjfranklin
Steven Franklin is a self-confessed social media addict, with 4 years’ experience of work in social media, drawn from a mixture of heritage, cultural, government, and the charity sectors.
To date, he has worked at Egham Museum, Bradford Museums and Art Galleries, The National Archives, and now The Royal Institution.
When he’s not making TikToks or trying to write witty posts on X, you’ll find him thinking about how the latest evolutions in social media could translate and be used within the cultural and charity sectors. His passion for innovation has seen him deliver huge social media at every organisation that he has worked, bringing his distinctive mixture of creativity and storytelling to every account, which has resulted in an attention-grabbing tone of voice that has greatly increased brand exposure and recognition.
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.
In this episode, I'm joined by Steven Franklin, the Social Media Manager at the Royal Institution. Steven has seen some phenomenal increases in subscribers and engagement whilst managing the organisation's social media, which, as we'll find out, is pivotal to the role the RI has in science communication.
Paul Marden: Welcome, Steven, to the Skip the Queue podcast. It's lovely to have you.
Steven Franklin: Yeah, thank you very much for inviting me on, Paul. Really looking forward to this chat.
Paul Marden: Yeah, me too. Me too. So, before we get started, where are you sat at the moment? Because it's looking like a pretty impressive location.
Steven Franklin: Yeah, no, I thought I'd make an effort for the listeners and viewers. So I'm currently in the very salubrious surroundings of Mayfair. To be more specific, the Royal Institution on Albemarle street, in the historic writing room, which dates all the way back to the sort of mid 1800s. Interestingly, a little anecdote. This is the room where our discourse speakers are locked in and have been locked in for quite a while, for a couple of, well, approaching a couple of centuries, following one specific instance where one of our speakers got so overwhelmed by anxiety and nerves that he basically left before his talk. So, in order to prevent that from happening, we now locked speakers up half an hour before their discourse is supposed to start, so they don't have the chance to run away and leave the audience wanting more to speak.
Paul Marden: And for the Skip the Queue audience, I would like emphasise that is not my plan going forward with the podcast. I am not going to lock people up half an hour before that.
Steven Franklin: No.
Paul Marden: So, Steven, we always start with some icebreaker questions. So I've got a couple for you. First one, what's your earliest memory of travelling outside of your hometown?
Steven Franklin: Oh, I think it would have to be travelling up to see one of my aunties who lives in Northamptonshire, and I always remember sort of going up the M1, which is an interesting thing to remember, seeing sort of the lights. But I think, more importantly than the sort of mundaneity and boredom of travelling up a motorway, it was just sort of the excitement and good times of getting treated by different relatives who also had a golden retriever called Barney, who I was very fond of. And, yeah, that was probably my earliest memory.
Paul Marden: Yeah, family trips like that are lovely, aren't they? I remember lots of trips up into South Wales. So mine would be that my memory would probably be the M4, travelling from Somerset up to the South Wales Valleys to visit Auger Farrell. Okay, so the next one. How would you describe your job to a two year old?
Steven Franklin: I'm in the business of entertaining people. And the way I entertain people is by either doing it through the form of video, or by doing it through the form of written word, or by doing it in nice visuals, whether they are still photos or animated graphics. And as a byproduct of my entertainment, I hope to also educate. There you go.
Paul Marden: Lovely. So another thing that we always ask our visitors onto the show is, what's your unpopular opinion?
Steven Franklin: So I've been. Obviously, you gave me the heads up for this, and I've been thinking long and hard about what's the most unpopular opinion that I came up with that I truly believe in, and mine is that audiobooks are a more pleasurable and enjoyable experience than reading a proper book.
Paul Marden: Oh, wow. Okay, so what's wrong with reading a proper book? There are librarians among us that might actually care about a physical book.
Steven Franklin: Yeah. Yeah. See this where it becomes a poor reflection on my own self, basically, because the reason that I don't really enjoy reading proper books is that I find it quite difficult to sort of sit still for long periods of time. I also find it quite difficult to shut my brain off for long enough to only be really focused on the one, the book that's in front of me. So, yeah, whilst I do appreciate the romanticism of sort of reading a book in the sun or reading a book over a cup of tea or, you know, reading a classic novel on holiday and the sort of the tactile nature of the book experience, it's never really sat with me.
Steven Franklin: So I think in some ways, that sort of unpopular opinion isn't really surprising, given what I work in and sort of age I am and sort of the media that I create, so I don't know whether it's a sense of the tail wagging the dog or the dog wagging the tail, but either way it's, you know, there's a nice sort of closed loop there.
Paul Marden: I've got my subscription and I've got a few credits that I need to spend at the bank, but I like an audiobook, but they send me to sleep, so if I can't do factual books on audiobook that sends me straight to sleep. But even listening to fiction on audible, within five minutes, I'll be out. Whereas I can sit and read a book and that can hold my attention for a couple of chapters before nodding off. Audiobook, I just need. I was listening to a Stephen Fry narrated one the other day, the lulling tones of Stephen Fry, but off I went to sleep.
Steven Franklin: I think Stephen Fry is, you know, he's sort of a silent assassin of the audiobook world insofar as he has such a, you know, his dulcet tones just naturally send you off and give me the Harry Potter audiobooks read by Stephen Fry, and I'm golden, so to speak. But, yeah, now, I also got into a bit of a nerdy sort of. And this is a very typical conversation at the RI, but a nerdy chat about whether you retain more information having actually read the book than listening to the book. Because I was of the opinion that you probably didn't take as much in if you were listening to it than if you were reading it.
Steven Franklin: I can't exactly remember what the figures were, but I think the long and short of it was that actually, the science suggests that sort of retention is slightly less, but not as drastic as you might have thought. So that gave me some sort of, you know, made me feel a little bit better about myself and my inability to sit quiet for long periods of time and read.
Paul Marden: So, anecdotally, I'm reading to my daughter as we read every night before she goes to bed. She's ten years old. She can be doing something else. She could even be reading a different book that I'll be reading to her. And I'm like, “You're not listening to me. What did I just say?” And she could just recite exactly what I just said. So she is listening, somehow, doing two things at once. I do not understand how she does it.
Steven Franklin: I don't know whether this is actually correct, but somewhere somebody might have said something or have read it, but there's something about doing two things at once that, you know, sort of gets your brain in a state of flow and maybe ups your performance again, I actually don't know whether this is true, but if it's not, this is a lie that I tell myself.
Paul Marden: So it's a pinchot that we're not actually scientists of the RI, so why don't we. You've told us what the two year old view of your job might look like, but why don't you tell us a little bit about the RI? Lots of listeners will be aware of the RI from the Christmas lectures, but it's got really long history. So tell us a little bit about that, about each role today and what you do.
Steven Franklin: Yeah, so the RI founded in 1799, basically from its very inception, a science engagement institution. I think that's something that has always and will continue to always set the RI apart from other sort of science organisations, insofar as we haven't been an organisation that's got a traditional focus on research and research outputs. Our sort of modus operandi, for want of a better phrase, has always been the core principle of connecting the public with science. Back in 1799 and through the early 1800s, you know, that would have been done traditionally by. Well, it still is to this day, but obviously that's back. Back in the day of ye oldy, victorian times, it would have been done by sort of, you know, lectures and demonstrations.
Steven Franklin: So the likes of, you know, Humphrey Davy, Michael Faraday, you know, these are some of the big figures that are associated with our long 225 year history. And in fact, pretty much every, you know, sort of famous scientist of the Victorian age is likely to have been a member here at some stage. Yeah. So, you know, we're very difficult. We're very different from the likes of the Royal Society in the sense that we've always welcomed women. We've always sort of had an ethos of connecting children. The Christmas lecture has been the most obvious example, but we're connecting children to science. And I think also, you know, we've also been quite historically wedded to the idea of being slightly different, less snobbish for, you know, I think, and more. More sort of open, more playful. We don't take ourselves too seriously.
Steven Franklin: And in fact, during sort of the Victorian period, we were sort of lambasted by famous caricatures of the day for that very fact. For the fact that sort of. We were obsessed with teaching the public. We allowed women in. We sort of broke the traditional rules of the day. So that got us into a bit of not trouble, but people laughed at us and pointed at us and sort of said that weren't doing it the right way because we weren’t an academic members only organisation. So that was. That was sort of our founding. And I think, you know, pretty much from that point onwards today, we've not really changed in that regard. The thing that's changed is sort of society around us. So we still have a lecture theatre.
Steven Franklin: I've mentioned earlier that we have our discourses. They used to happen every Friday, and they now happen once, the last Friday of every month. Christmas lectures continue to this day, and next year it will be the 200th anniversary of them.
Paul Marden: Wow.
Steven Franklin: And the Christmas lectures have pretty much been a constant. They were stopped or paused during World War II but, you know, by and large, a tradition that's sort of a line that links us from the present all the way back to the past. And, in fact, even the desk that sits, that's in the lecture theatre today, whilst it's not Faraday's original, part of it, is, so every time they rebuild it, they keep a part of the old desk and use that. So it's a bit like that, you know, that famous Titanic sort of riddle like, if you were to change all the parts of the Titanic, would it still be the Titanic? And, you know, or bicycle, whatever. But, yeah, so there's that. And I think, to the present day, our scope's much larger now.
Steven Franklin: So we have a sort of traditional stem learning framework in place where school kids, pretty much of all curricular curriculum ages, can come to on site and be taught. So we've got a very buzzing, very healthy science programme. We also do a lot off site science engagement for the schools that aren't based in London. We also have a very thriving public programme that, you know, sees some of the foremost, greatest scientific thinkers of today come and provide lectures in the Faraday lecture theatre. We're also home to a wonderful collection of scientific history. So there's been ten elements of the periodic table that were isolated here at the RI. So, yeah, we've got a history of that, and we have, well, basically, we've far too much for even us to talk about. And then I guess.
Steven Franklin: I guess for me, working in sort of digital social media, I guess part of my remit, well, my remit is to engage people with science to get them interested in science. We believe, and we're quite unashamed in our belief that, you know, science is for everyone and science is important. It is quite fundamental and crucial to everyday life, regardless of how old you are. So a knowledge of science is important. And, you know, another key sort of part of my work is to sort of show off what the RI has in our heritage collection, our public programme, to get people onto site, to encourage people to become members and support our mission, and just to, I guess, entertain people through science. There you go.
Paul Marden: That's interesting, isn't it? The entertainment element of it. I guess there's an element of trying to get people on board and engage in their RI's mission, but at the same time entertaining them. And everyone likes a good explosion video, don't they?
Steven Franklin: So, yeah, I mean, yeah, I've sort of. Not a day goes past where I don't feel incredibly fortunate, really, because, you know, in some ways, I get a lot of the credit for success that we see on social media when videos go viral. But I'm not the one exploding hydrogen balloons or making, you know, really impressive looking sort of demos, chemical reactions, so to speak. So, you know, it's very much an all sort of team sort of mission. But, yeah, I do have it very good, actually, because I've got so much. I'm like Aladdin in the cave, got so much to play with.
Paul Marden: Lots of material. So that's interesting. So let's talk a little bit about social media at the RI. It's really important to the organisation, because when I was doing my bone round research to all of this, and I open up the annual report, then on the trustees report, on, like, page one or page two of the annual report, they are talking about the impact of social media on the organisation. So it's obviously crucial to what you do. How do you think that it's become that important for the organisation?
Steven Franklin: I think, genuinely, it does link back to that core fundamental purpose. All social media is the 21st century way of connecting people with an idea. In the Victorian times, you would have had to sit in a lecture theatre and listen to the lecture given. If you were lucky, you might have been able to read it, if you were in the right sort of circles. But, in many ways, the way in which technology has evolved and where we sit here today, it's never been easier to sort of publish ideas and communicate thinking. That isn't to downplay the craft that goes into it, because I think that's two separate conversations. It is very easy to publish.
Steven Franklin: It's a little bit more of a science to publish in the right way with the right sort of thinking that goes into it. So, yeah, I think, it's fundamental about connecting people with science, and that is what the charity and the institution is built on. I think we're quite fortunate, the RI, in the sense that we have a leadership team that truly believes in the importance of connection and doesn't devalue digital connection against physical connection. So, whether you're supporting our social media channels, whether you're a subscriber on YouTube, or whether you're sitting in the lecture theatre, that is a valuable engagement that is fulfilling a function and part of our purpose. So, yeah, I think that's why. And actually, it's really nice to be working at an organisation that does play such onus and importance.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So what is it like having responsibility for over a million followers across social? That must be a little bit bolting.
Steven Franklin: Yes, it is. And I've thought about this a lot, and indeed, I've had quite a short career in social media, but I think even I've begun to mature in the way I think about this, too. I think, first and foremost, if you're working in social media, you probably aren't somebody that's overawed by that fact that you can hit huge numbers of people pretty much instantaneously. And I think if you are somebody that would get anxious about that, you probably wouldn't be working in social or indeed comms. So I think there's that. But I think it's a great honour, to be honest, to be trusted pretty much within reason, to sort of spearhead a strategy and have a bit of fun.
Steven Franklin: And translate sort of, scientific ideas into a medium that makes sense for the 21st century, or indeed the trend, or indeed the platform. I think that's in a very entrusted position. Yeah, so there's that. And then, I think, for me personally, there's been a bit of maturity in sort of realising that, actually, whilst you still get that rush, when you see a viral post really take off and you get that lovely dopamine hit and you're on cloud nine, actually realising that this is not your account, you're doing the work of the organisation. This isn't Steven Franklin out there and sort of going viral.
Paul Marden: This is some of the jokes. There's a little bit of you in there, I think.
Steven Franklin: Yeah, no, there is, there is. But I think the thing that I've realised is that when things. When things go well, then you've got nothing to worry about. But in the odd moments where you get into a bit of a sticky patch, something didn't go quite anticipated. That's when having too close a personal connection with it does become health sage. Correct. Yeah. And actually, I think, by and large, for the most part, that sort of talking to a million people is 99% not a problem. It's that small 1% of moments where something goes awry that you didn't quite anticipate, we didn't expect. I try my best to think 360 degrees about what possibly people could think in response to it.
Steven Franklin: A post that I think is harmless, but in reality we're posting to the Internet and everybody on the Internet is able to hold of you. And so I was having this conversation with my line manager a couple of weeks ago, 20 years ago, you would have published something in the press and somebody would have had the same thought. The only difference was they were having it in their living room and they were just uttering it to their other half. Today they can literally give you instantaneous feedback. So that's how the dynamic shifted. So yeah, I think hopefully that's answered your question. Paul.
Paul Marden: Yeah, you touched on this a minute ago, you touched on kind of the broader strategy. So what are the goals for social, for the organisation going forwards?
Steven Franklin: I mean more, more, more. How do you like it? How do you like it? I mean there is an element of that. So obviously we want to continue growing all of our channels as much as possible. We want to be talking to as many new people, raising the awareness of the institution, raising the awareness of our work, but then also sort of subsidiary to that, just sort of communicating good science and providing that sort of educational offer. So I think, there is that sort of vanity metric in terms of raw number of followers, but we're also really interested in engagement and you know, there's no point to us in having 5 million followers if only 5000 people engage with your content each month. That to us feels a little incongruous.
Steven Franklin: So, putting out quality content on channels that our communities on those channels respond to and enjoy and engage with is sort of a big motivation factor for us. And then secondly, or maybe thirdly, we've been quite agile in adapting to technology in the 21st century. So some of our channels we have monetised and sort of use digital content to help drive revenue and bring in revenue. So that's a sort of secondary or tertiary sort of thing on social.
Paul Marden: Yeah, it's a nice bit of feedback, isn't it, in batching to the organisation. So who are the audiences, those communities that you touched on a moment ago, who is it that you're trying to speak to?
Steven Franklin: So I think by and large, like any organisation, we have an audience sort of strategy that sort of segments all of our audiences into various catchment terms that represent people and we have about six to eight of those. And we made a conscious effort to focus on to two groups that we internally refer to as the science connected and the science curious. So science connected being people that might work in science, might have done a degree in science, might have a connection through science, they might be studying it. So, that traditional science call, they work in a career that is adjacent to science and then the science curious, probably, are those people that don't fit into that group, but are probably more arts and culturally orientated.
Steven Franklin: They are interested in learning new things, they are open to ideas and exchanging ideas and. Yeah. So those are the sort of two audiences that we predominantly focus on. That isn't to say that we are deliberately excluding the rest.
Paul Marden: If you're not focusing on some bit, you're focused on no deal.
Steven Franklin: Exactly. Yeah.
Paul Marden: So I guess the reason how the way that we got connected, the way that our conversation started together, was more interested in data and pulling data out of the sector and understanding how the sector works. And in a conversation I had with Rachel at the Association of Science and Discovery Centre, she said you'd be a really good person to talk to because you're really motivated by the data behind social and you use that a lot to be able to influence what you do. So tell us a little bit about that. How are you using data to make decisions about what you do next?
Steven Franklin: Well, that's a big question. I think one of the great things about working in digital social being a part of digital, is that there's no shortage of data that is at your disposal. I think one of the things that makes me sort of sad working within the charity cultural sector is that actually, by and large, the level of resource isn't there to truly sort of get to the bottom of what that data tells you.
Paul Marden: Yes.
Steven Franklin: So I'll get off my soapbox now. Yeah. So, as you say, I'm very interested in using that data to inform my content choices. And I think by far and away, the clearest example I have to show you today is the way that we've sort of looked at data in terms of our Instagram growth.
Steven Franklin: To put that into context, in the last six months we've grown organically by 110,000 followers in about 130 posts. So absolutely staggering numbers. And then within the last four or five months, we've done approaching 10 million impressions on just Instagram alone. So, huge numbers. And the thing that I noticed was that whenever I posted a static image or graphic to the grid, so just a post, the only people that saw it were your followers, and there was a tiny fraction of people that weren't your followers. So I posted a reel and then I realised that percentage and was completely skied the other way. So, depending on how successful the reel was, you could have anything up to 75% non followers versus 25% followers on a truly viral reel, that was over a million views.
Steven Franklin: So what that told me was that if I wanted to grow, the easiest way to grow is to obviously get your content to new people. And the way the platform and the algorithm was telling me the easiest way to do that was to just publish Instagram reels. So. And, there have been other stories. I think the Washington Post sort of in 21, 22, grew their Instagram channel to over a couple of million by publishing three Instagram reels a day. And they had exponential growth of which hadn't been seen before. So I didn't do three times a day. I just did three a week one on Monday, one on Wednesday, one on Friday. All videos about 60 seconds, some 40 seconds and some, up to a minute and a half. But yeah, just got into that pattern.
Steven Franklin: Posted, posted posters, and then I would supplement those reels with, a couple of grid posts. And the way that I sort of was seeing or the way that the strategy has sort of evolved is that the reels are the things that grow the channel and the grid posts are the things that cultivate the community. So, our Instagram reels are our calling card.
Paul Marden: Yep.
Steven Franklin: For a traditional analogy, they're the billboard that you put on the motorway that lots of people see. And the content you post to your followers or to those followers are the sort of entertaining, sort of, membership pack that they can read and that equivalent, the analogy sort of fell down. But hopefully you get my gist.
Paul Marden: Yeah, I get what you mean. So when you flip it on its head and you go with the reels, you get this massive increase in people that aren't following you, seeing what you're talking about. And what sort of conversion rate are you seeing how many people are actually following you as a result of that? Is that the great point there?
Steven Franklin: Yeah, so we've like, within a month, we've been growing on average, 20,000 followers a month. In some days, we've been doing one and a half thousand followers a day. You can link that. So, you know, Instagram, if you go into our most popular reel that has over 5 million views, it will tell you how many new followers that specific video has generated. That video, I think, for us, has in itself generated like 30,000 new followers.
Paul Marden: Many thoughts. Now there's just play by mind. That's amazing. What is it about the content? Have you changed the content over that time? So you'd say that you're presenting different things.
Steven Franklin: Yeah. So it's been really interesting. And the reason it's been interesting is because by and large, it sort of has gone against the industry received wisdom. So, for context, I am the sole person in charge of social media. I work in a digital and marketing team. We have two full time video producers who help me create visual content and assets and video. But by and large, you know, I am sort of a one man band. So I sort of decided that I couldn't create brand new content all the time. But what I could do is use the 40 minutes to an hour lecture that we have take place in our lectures sometimes three times a week that are by and large filmed.
Steven Franklin: I know that we've got some of the greatest scientists in the world coming to speak about really cool things. Okay, cool. Why don't I take that 1 hour talk and skim through it at two times speed and isolate 1 minute moments that peak interest. Okay. So that's all very well and good. What are the things that we internally think peak people's interest? Well, there's the obvious one. It's the demonstrations or the impressive science experiments, the bangs, the smoke and all of that. So there's that. Then there's the talking about something that's, you know, vaguely topical trending. So I think that, the probably most obvious example of that is the, is Chris Van Dulligan and his ultra processed foods or ultra processed people book.
Steven Franklin: So, yep, we released quite a lot of content around that. And that did very well. And then thirdly, I guess it's the content that is likely to somewhat divide opinion. I won't say it's controversial content, but I would say that it's content that is most likely to get people talking. Because another thing that I noticed was that if your video gets more comments, it seems that helps with performance than likes. So you could get loads of likes. But if nobody comments, then algorithm isn't interested. But if people start talking and commenting, then the algorithm says, “Oh, people really like this. And, you know, it doesn't matter what they're saying.”
Paul Marden: And that's what you're seeing with the reels. Is it that you push a reel out there? And if it's, if it is thought provoking, not controversial. Yeah. Then you're seeing people commenting on that and that drawings up more impressions, which itself drives more engagement and all the outcomes.
Steven Franklin: Yeah. So like to take that 5 million reel example, you know, it's got like 45,000 likes, so it's still a lot of likes. But if you did the maths, that compared to 5 million views, it's quite a small rate. The amount of comments, it's got huge. It's like the comment section alone is bordering on 5000. Conversely, we have another video that's done sort of approaching 4 million, the likes are at 100,000, but the comment section is far smaller and it hasn't received as or hasn't been pumped out. Now, am I reading too much into this? Probably, because at the end of the day we're all slightly at the mercy of the algorithm and there is a bit of luck. There is a bit of luck.
Steven Franklin: But I guess for me, having sort of worked on it and sort of adopted this strategy for six months, it does seem to be the case that the more people start talking and commenting and sharing, the more the algorithm sort of takes that as a sign or marker of good content.
Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So around the kind of content planning and production piece, there's a team of people around you. You're in a fortunate position because you've got all of these amazing scientists from around the world that want to talk about what they do in your lecture theatre where you can go and record their content and back, all of a sudden you've got a content plan in front of you of the year, haven't you? So that's a really fortunate position to be in. But how do you go from that plan of all of the activity over the year into figuring out what you're going to do on a daily basis on your Monday, Wednesday, Friday posts that you do.
Steven Franklin: So there's two ways. There's the official answer and then there's the unofficial answer. The official answer is in some ways the reels that we post are somewhat predetermined by the schedule of our public programme. Now that isn't to say, and this somewhat circles back to your previous question, but I think it still makes sense. Not all of our content that we published on Instagram or TikTok is, a clip of a talk. You know, we do supplement the content calendar with our own sort of original content, whether that be green screen or our own internal science demonstrations, you know, and interestingly, actually there's another anecdote. The green screen on Instagram just dives. People aren't interested in it.
Steven Franklin: The green screen on TikTok, people love it, whereas on TikTok you post a clip of a talk, people less don't like it. They probably don't feel it's very authentic to the platform. The green screen, you know, goes bonkers, you know, work that out, whatever. Yeah, but, yeah, so going back there is. There is obviously there's somewhat predetermined by the talks, but then also it's coming down to, okay, we have had, you know, how many physics, how many biology, how many chemistry, how many hard science, soft science. We are an organisation that is inclusive reflex all. So we don't want to just publish white men.
Steven Franklin: We need a gender balance there, we need an ethnicity balance as well to reflect the vibrancy of everyone that comes to talk here, but also the vibrancy of the scientific community and large because at the end of the day, our content has the ability to inspire and allows people to feel seen, I guess so. So that also sort of informs our planning process.
Paul Marden: I think you said something about when we were talking before, actually, if you were being really mercenary about this and just going for the engagement, then you would focus on certain demographics of who it is that's presenting all the subject matter as well. Those can skew as well. But you have this obligation to be more diverse than it used.
Steven Franklin: Yeah. And that is an internal challenge. And I think it is a challenge that you could let yourself get carried away by following, chasing big numbers and fall into a trap of sort of undermining your own institution nor mission. Just at the sake of to get to a million followers or whatever. But yeah, no, there are some challenges, you know, there are. And this is me not trying to overstate things, but we do publish content that we know sadly won't perform as well as say something else that we know probably would. But I think that is also one of the great joys and great beauties of working here is we're not yet. We will never be at a stage where we just do things for the pure KPI's.
Steven Franklin: We are also all about engagement and inspiring and being inclusive.
Paul Marden: There's a big mission that plays. It's quite interesting, isn't it? Because it makes you wonder whether just if you focus on one demographic or you focus one segment at the expense of the others. Is that because the algorithm favours that or is that because the audience. You would think that even if it was the algorithm favouring it's because that's because the audience that the algorithm serves is optimised around the algorithm is optimised around the audience. So you would expect it to be the audience listening. But yeah, it's a. Which came first is a chicken and egg problem, isn't it?
Steven Franklin: It is. It is a chicken and egg problem. And I think, you know, sort of this comes back to you. What's it like to manage a channel of a million sort of people? You just got to accept that not everything you post is going to be to everyone's taste. There'll be things that fly and there'll be things that don't. But the things that don't, it doesn't mean that it was bad content, doesn't mean that it's not fulfilled an important or valuable function or done something that has meaning, even if it only gets, you know, 50 engagements. Those 50 engagements are very valuable and in some cases could be potentially more valuable if it's chimed with the right sort of people and got in front of the audience we wanted.
Paul Marden: Yeah, my daughter absolutely adores Mark Rober videos and the crunchlight boxes that he has. And he talks about, you hide the vegetables. Yeah. You give people the big exploding test tubes or whatever, but hidden behind that is the chemistry. Or you give them a toy that enables them to do amazing things with ping pong balls, but actually along the way they're learning some physics. You can hide the veg in amongst all of your exploding videos.
Steven Franklin: Yeah, correct. And funny you should mention Mark Rober. I was literally just watching a YouTube video about him earlier today on the way in. Yeah, I wouldn't say an idol of mine, but a really interesting sort of case study in somebody that sort of, you know, the way in which the creator economy is sort of pivoted to a way where you can become your own sort of advertiser as well as product. And you have the perfect closed loop. You create a product, you make a video for 30 million people that advertises your product, that then generates income so you can create more product, so you can just go round around.
Steven Franklin: Yeah, I mean, I guess for me, I'm a YouTube nut and I'm a sort of social media addicts and I think there's really big potential in sort of unlocking some of the secrets of how creators work and how they think and how they approach content and product and collaboration, taking some of those principles and concepts into the world of brands and organisations and institutions, because, let's be honest, that's kind of the future. And those people, regardless of whether they've got a marketing background or qualifications in marketing, they are cutting edge marketers who.
Paul Marden: Absolutely, yeah.
Steven Franklin: Who know exactly what they're doing, who are obsessed by the detail, who study and analyse retention graphs until it sort of makes them blue in the face. And that's the type of thing that I would love to do, to be able to do A and B tests on Facebook, to be able to do something as simple as publish the same video, publish one without a sort of timeline that shows how long you are through the video, publish the same video with that. See how that affects retention. Because if you believe that, as we're told, that retention is one of the keys sort of metrics of success or good content, then if you can find ways in which you can create longer retention metric, then that would be a key.
Steven Franklin: And even something as simple as that could possibly lead to some really big impacts. Another thing, you could post your video on reels and you could look at the or TikTok, look at a retention graph. Okay, we'll publish the same video, but we'll take that spike and we'll move that there and we'll cut the video short.
Paul Marden: That's amazing, isn’t it?
Steven Franklin: Yeah, but that is the sort of thinking that's happening with some of the biggest creators, and sort of I guess they're in a very privileged position because they have now huge teams behind them. But I guess for me the core point is that they didn't always have these people there.
Paul Marden: And did the data just add to that, isn't it?
Steven Franklin: Yeah, yeah. You know, and my suspicion is I've never spoken to the likes of Mr. Beast or Mark Rober or anybody with huge social following. But my suspicion is basically if you just take one piece of data and you optimise your workflow around that, then once you've got that sorted, you then turn your attention to another piece and then another piece, and then if you've optimised five pieces of data, then maybe you are in a place where you can get another person and then, so to speak.
Paul Marden: It's a positive reinforcing cycle, isn't it? So let's take that. How do you demonstrate back to the organisation the return on their investment for all the work that you're doing?
Steven Franklin: Well, as sort of referenced earlier, there is the sort of monetisation aspect to that. So I have a KPI of sort of quarterly and monthly budgets that I am against, that I'm accountable to. So there's that. So that's a very obvious straight line trajectory between a very opaque money and then digital content. But then I guess outside of that, there's other KPI's, obviously, growth on channels, engagement rates, numbers of engagements, link clicks through to our posts that promoting our membership offers, whether that be family membership or adult membership or our public programme events. So those are all the ways in which I can demonstrate value, I guess. And that's just numeric data.
Steven Franklin: But then there's also the actual stuff that I much more enjoy, which is the anecdotal, the sort of the written word where somebody says, give the social media manager a raise. I cheaply screenshot and send it over to my line manager to say, you know, just leaving this here.
Paul Marden: Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. This has been brilliant to talk to you, find out a little bit more about what you do and what the RI is doing with social media. It's been awesome. We always ask our guests to tell us about their favourite books that we could share with the audience. So have you selected a book for us?
Steven Franklin: I have selected a book that I listened to on audible. Yeah. So Steven Bartlett's the Diary of a CEO, 33 laws, business and life, something that I've just finished listening to. Yeah, I'm a big sort of fan of, or, you know, have great admiration for, you know, Steven Bartlett and sort of the way that he's sort of, you know, that a rags to riches kind of story. But yeah, I think there's lots of. It's a very consumable, accessible book with some really nice little ideas in there that you can take away, probably implement to yourself. One of the greatest is the idea of absurdity, and the role that can be and how that can be exploited not just in social but just within marketing.
Steven Franklin: And those sort of tidbits, stick with me, I guess. It's in that ever sort of growing pursuit of mind of trying to just make myself, you know, 1% better each day. And if I can learn from some of the world's best and sort of get any part of wisdom or insight from them and sort of implement that, then that's not going to do me, I hope, any bad. So yeah, that would be my recommendation.
Paul Marden: There you go, lovely listeners. So if you would like a copy of Diary of a CEO, then jump onto X, retweet the show announcement and say, I want Steven's book. The first person that does that will get a copy of the book. Steven, it's been utterly delightful. Thank you ever so much. I really enjoyed we said to each other when we finished the prep call, I hope the main call goes as well as the prep call did. It really did. I've enjoyed this one just as much as the prep call. So thank you.
Steven Franklin: No, thank you very much. And yeah, it's been really enjoyable. I just wish it could have been longer, to be honest.
Paul Marden: Well, maybe we'll bring you back for part two again sometime soon. Thank you, Steven.
Steven Franklin: Thank you.
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Polly sat on the client side in a marketing manager role at BMW (UK) Ltd before co-founding The Typeface Group in 2010. She’s an ideas person, blending creativity and commercial awareness to get the best outcomes for our clients.

The Typeface Group is a B Corp Communications Agency + Design Studio based in North Hampshire. Their mission is to counteract digital chatter by championing authentic and strategic communication. Team TFG work with brilliant minds in business to extract, optimise and amplify their expertise, cutting through content clutter and stimulating sales
while reducing digital waste at all costs.

The Typeface Group have been B Corp certified since October 2021 and is currently going through recertification.
Nancy Hyne: True Horizon: https://truehorizon.co.uk/
Seismic Change: https://www.seismic-change.com/
Transcription:
Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with Vista attractions. I'm your host, Paul Marden.
On today’s episode I’m joined by Polly Buckland the Owner Founder of The Typeface Group a B Corp Communications Agency and Design studio based in Hampshire.
The climate emergency is a subject that is gaining traction. The changes to our climate are palpable, and finding ways to reduce our carbon footprint and impact on the planet is front and centre for many people that visit attractions.
People are making mindful decisions about where to spend their time and money, to have as little impact as possible – but at the same time people still want to enjoy experiences.
There are many attractions that understand this and are working to reduce their impact, and communicate this clearly to potential guests. So today I’m going to be talking to Polly about how you can measure, and communicate the sustainability of your attraction.
Paul Marden: Polly, welcome to the show.
Polly Buckland: Thank you for having me, Paul.
Paul Marden: Absolute pleasure. My first in the driver's seat all by myself. So it was important to me that this was going to be an interview with a friend so that I could ease myself into the hot seat of being the main host of Skip the Queue.
Polly Buckland: Happy to help.
Paul Marden: Thank you. Thank you for joining me. So regular listeners will know that we always start the podcast with a icebreaker question or two, which is always a surprise. So I picked out some lovely ones for you. Okay. These were ones that came from one of the podcast alumni last week, Ross Ballinger from Drayton Manor. So these were ones that he prepared. So he said, “If you could master one new skill instantly, what would it be and why?”
Polly Buckland: Being able to focus one thing at a time, because I don't know what that feels like.
Paul Marden: Does any agency owner know that? I mean, I think that is kind of a skill for agency owners to be able to focus on 16 things concurrently.
Polly Buckland: No, I’m not sure. Yeah. I feel like it would be a superpower to just really focus in on just that one thing.
Paul Marden: It's interesting, isn't it, because different people behave in different ways. So some people just hyper focus, don't they? Right down into the cornflakes. I can't do that at all. I'm like, just give me the headlines and I'll focus on the six things concurrently, rather than write down deep.
Polly Buckland: Indeed. Lots of tabs open.
Paul Marden: Oh, yeah, completely. All right, so my next one then. If you could live in any period of history, what would it be?
Polly Buckland: Well, my mum told me recently that we descend from Vikings in our family. So maybe I'd go Viking. Maybe I'll go that era.
Paul Marden: That's taking it right back, isn't it? That's good.
Polly Buckland: Or all the 60’s, 70’s, because my mum also went to the Isle of Wight festival when Hendrix was there, and that sounds like it was fun.
Paul Marden: I think if I had to choose between those two, I'd probably go for 60’s or 70’s.
Polly Buckland: Life might have been harder as a Viking.
Paul Marden: I think it could have been quite a lot harder as a Viking. We went to Wealden Downland Museum a couple of weeks ago, and you could see the history of all of the different buildings and places that people lived. Yeah, no, I'll take central heating, please. Central heating and somewhere to cook your dinner. Don't really want to go back to just everybody sitting around a fire trying to. Trying to cook off a fire and live in the same space. That doesn't sound too fun for me.
Polly Buckland: No. Maybe I was hasty. Yeah. Let's go to the Isle of Wight festival and watch the doors.
Paul Marden: Sounds pretty cool to me. All right then, Polly. So the other thing that we always ask people is, what is their unpopular opinion? So tell me, what's yours?
Polly Buckland: I don't like ABBA.
Paul Marden: Really?
Polly Buckland: Quiet, full stop. Well, just so overplayed. It makes me sulk a little bit if I'm dancing and someone puts an ABBA track on.
Paul Marden: Which is quite often, isn't it, really?
Polly Buckland: It's too often.
Paul Marden: So you're not too interested in watching some musicals with some ABBA soundtrack in it? That's. That's not going to light your fire?
Polly Buckland: My kids like watching the Mamma Mia films. They're okay. I like Meryl Streep, but.
Paul Marden: Not so much the music.
Polly Buckland: No. And I love musicals, but, yeah, not ABBA.
Paul Marden: So next wedding you go to, better make sure that they don't have ABBA on the soundtrack and ruin the end of the evening for you.
Polly Buckland: Yeah.
Paul Marden: Okay. So, Polly, thank you. We are going to talk about sustainability reporting because this is something that you do in your business. Yeah. But it's also something that you do helping other organisations with their sustainability reporting, isn't it? So really, I just wanted to start right back at the beginning. For people that have never done this before that heard the term bandied around, what does it actually mean to be doing sustainability reporting within an organisation?
Polly Buckland: Well, it depends what framework you choose to report by and what's most suitable for your business. And there are many excellent sustainability consultancies out there that can help you kind of decide which road to go down. But for me, regardless of what framework you choose to work by, sustainability reporting is important because you can't improve what you don't measure.
Polly Buckland: And in order to move forward as a more sustainable business, you also need to bring your team on board, your customers on board, and you're kind of missing the most important communication tool if you haven't galvanised your mission and your targets into a report. So, yeah, it's really important, regardless of where you are in your journey, regardless of whether it's a legal requirement for your business or not, to actually get your goals down in black and white and start communicating them.
Paul Marden: So there's something you touched on there about it being a legal requirement for some people. So is it's mandatory for some sorts of organisations, is it? And then is it an optional for others?
Polly Buckland: Yeah. So quoted companies, LLPs, large businesses, there's kind of thresholds of energy usage and turnover that will define whether you are legally required to report or not. All B Corps have an obligation to produce annual impact report. And that's kind of how we started putting our annual reports together since our accreditation three and a bit years ago.
Paul Marden: Wow. Okay. So if you don't have to do it, if it's not a legal requirement for you to do it, why would you do it? It sounds like, not having done this before myself, it feels like it could be quite a lot of work. So is there a business benefit to producing this?
Polly Buckland: It is quite a lot of work. It's definitely not a tick box exercise. There's buckets of research out there as to the relationship between consumer behaviour and sustainability. So McKinsey did a study. 60% of customers actively prioritise purchasing from sustainable businesses. Capgemini, 77% of customers buy from and remain loyal to brands that show their social responsibility.
Polly Buckland: That I could literally keep quoting stats as to why businesses should take their sustainability goals very seriously and the communication of their sustainability initiatives very seriously, because it's becoming clearer. There was another stat about primarily women making the decisions based on sustainability of a business, and millennials and Gen Z being sort of high up the list of people that are taking sustainability creds into consideration when they're making a purchase.
Polly Buckland: So, I mean, it's a barrel load of stats that suggest if you don't have your eye on sustainability reporting and communicating your sustainability goals, you perhaps should have.
Paul Marden: Yeah. So thinking about our listeners and sorts of people that listen to the podcast, we've got attractions. And, you know, when we as an agency going and talking to people, we're talking about the audience. Who is it that's actually going to be buying from an attraction? Those are key demographics that you're talking about and making buying decisions off the basis of sustainability reporting and sustainability an overlap of what they want and what the organisation is offering. That's a key buying decision for people that are making decisions about where do they go at the weekend with their family. Could be off the back of those sustainability goals themselves, couldn't they?
Polly Buckland: 100%. And actually, if you think of the little people that are going to these attractions, I know my daughter is in junior school at the moment, and they've done, it's part of the curriculum now. So she's coming home and talking to me about plastics in the ocean and looking at signage and looking at labels on fair trade, that there are little people out there that are looking for these messages now. Yeah, it's important to them. I even noticed the other day a new Sainsbury's opened near where we are, and there is an abundance of sustainability messaging throughout the shop.
Paul Marden: Oh, really?
Polly Buckland: Yeah. So I think people are switching on to the fact that consumers want to see this stuff.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So the other group of people that listening to us are people that working with attractions. And I guess if you're doing sustainability reporting, does that also look at the supply chain? So the people that you buy from, you need to be buying from people that are also thinking about sustainability. So for agencies like us or other people that are servicing the attraction sector, for those attractions that are interested in sustainability reporting, they're going to look to that, to their suppliers to also care about those sorts of things.
Polly Buckland: Yeah, 100%. So doing your due diligence with your supply chain is a big part of what you claim to be as a business. We've just supported one of our clients with the design of their GRI reporting. And as part of that, as one of their suppliers, we had to write a statement to go into that GRI report. So, yeah, supplier due diligence is massive, and I think it would only help you as an agency or as a supplier into these big attractions to not only do the sustainability reporting get the accreditation with whatever framework that works for you, but communicate it to your prospects and customers as well.
Paul Marden: Yeah. So you're talking a little bit about frameworks, and you've talked about different types of sustainability report. Is there some kind of standardisation to this? You know, accountants have standards by which they do their financial reporting. Is that the same sort of thing happening in sustainability space?
Polly Buckland: There are just a number of frameworks you can report by. So if you are one of those larger businesses that we spoke about previously, there are SECR regulations that you need to be compliant for. There are reporting frameworks, as I mentioned, like GRI. There's the ISO accreditation, there's B Corp and our sustainability consultant that we use, Nancy Hine from True Horizon, based down in the New Forest. She very often says it's a case of choosing the framework that's right for you and what you're hoping to achieve as a business. So went down the B Corp route because that's suitable for us. One of our clients, as I said, has just gone down the GRI route. So there isn't one size fits all.
Polly Buckland: And there are a lot of consultancies out there, like Seismic Change, for example, that can support using whichever framework is most kind of commercially viable for you and where you're looking to go as a business, but keeping that credibility through the reporting.
Paul Marden: So getting some advice and guidance from some of the experts to help you pick makes a lot of sense then, I guess.
Polly Buckland: 100%.
Paul Marden: We've talked a little bit about the frameworks. Now you might need somebody to help you with those frameworks, but let's just take it right back to basics. We need to talk a little bit about the sustainability report itself. How do you go about actually gathering all the data and being able to report on the numbers themselves?
Polly Buckland: Yeah, so like us, when we started, weren't really affiliated with any framework. And actually we started by just getting an environmental audit of our business because were interested in how we fared. And that's really how were then introduced into the world of B Corp. But at a basic level, I would split impact reporting into the story and what makes you different as a business and where you've been, where you are, where you want to go, what your commitments are and the data which would be your scope one, two and three emissions.
Polly Buckland: So your scope one emissions, they include all direct emissions from the activities of your business. So that might include any company owned facilities or vehicles. Scope two emissions cover indirect emissions from electricity, heat, cooling that are used by the organisation. And then scope three is pretty much where everything else sits. So for us, a fully remote business, the majority of our emissions sit in scope three, and we are granular to the point where we know the majority of our emissions come from our coffee habit.
Polly Buckland: And that is. That is fact. So once you get a basic understanding of what your scope one, two and three emissions are, there's so much training you can do as a business, whether it's through carbon literacy or you can find consultants to come in and do one one training. What I found was really important is getting the whole team involved in that training.
Polly Buckland: So everyone has a basic understanding of what we're measuring when we're saying scope one, scope two, or scope three, what we mean and what's included within those scopes so people can start to be mindful about waste. So understanding the emissions is important, but tracking your emissions as a business is really important. And we use a business called Compare Your Footprint. And it's basically an engine that you put your data into and it tells you what your carbon footprint is.
Paul Marden: And it's doing that across all of those three different scopes of emissions that you're able to put your data in. Because obviously that's going to really vary by types of organisation, isn't it? Because if you're running a big attraction, then you're going to be, you know, that's a big physical space, isn't it? So you're going to be consuming lots of electricity to be able to power that thing, and probably gas as well to be able to heat it. But, you know, there's ways of mitigating that. But your focus might be different than you are if you're a virtual organisation like us where you know you, a lot of it is very indirect, that kind of scope three type stuff.
Polly Buckland: Exactly. And I guess it's important to differentiate at this point the difference between carbon neutrality and net zero. So there are lots of businesses that will claim carbon neutrality and what that means is they've calculated their scope one and two emissions and have offset those emissions. You don't have to have any reduction plan in place for those emissions and you can offset them and claim carbon neutrality. So on one hand, at least, scope one and two emissions are being measured. However, we could, I could easily do that as a business and pay 30 quid in offsets and claim carbon neutrality knowing that I have tons of emissions sat in my scope 3, whereas net zero, you have to get your baseline of emissions, then you have to reduce them by 90%, I believe it is, and then offset the rest.
Polly Buckland: So there's a world of difference between claiming carbon neutrality and net zero and there's most people, if not everyone really is in between and doing the work. I digress going back to that very first impact report, getting a handle on your emissions. In our first impact reports, we said we've done scope one and two, we haven't done scope three yet, so being really transparent because you've got to start somewhere. And actually, we included in our Impact Report because weren't governed, it didn't have to be compliant in the way that a GRI report might be.
Polly Buckland: So we're slightly more free with what we include. We really told a story through ours on what we set out to do, what we did towards that, what worked, what didn't work. Then our data and data visualisation around our scope one, two and three emissions. And then actually the biggest part of our first ever impact report was the to do list for the coming year.
Paul Marden: Oh, really?
Polly Buckland: What we wanted to focus on. Yeah. And actually the beauty of an impact report like that for us is, A, we get really good feedback because people love the storytelling aspect of it. But B, I'm just doing my third impact report now for us, and I go back to last year and say what we said were going to do, and I have a double page spread with what we said were going to do, what we actually did. So it's a really great accountability tool, as well as a way to tell the story of your sustainability progress.
Paul Marden: Yeah. It holds you accountable for setting a plan and then measuring how well you completed against that plan. And I'm guessing that varies. Some things you will have done really well on some things you didn't progress on, and there'll be some things that you do that you hadn't necessarily thought about as well.
Polly Buckland: Yeah, yeah. And there are some targets in there, like revenue from purpose driven businesses. I think year one were at 30% and we said we wanted to get to 40%, and then we said we wanted to get to 50%. And I think we're at about 54% at the moment. So putting those targets in place really helps give you that focus throughout the year in some of the decisions you make as a business.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Polly Buckland: It helps you grow internally as well as provides a vehicle for communicating something that's actually very important to a lot of people that are choosing your product or service.
Paul Marden: You touched on the storytelling element of this. When I think about sustainability reporting myself, I guess I started from a point of view of, and this might because I'm a data geek, but I started from thinking there's a huge amount of data involved in this, you're going to have to gather lots, but equally important to you is the storytelling around it. So are you thinking about that in advance, about the narrative of where you want to take the business over the year ahead. And how are you thinking about that? Is that something that you get the whole team involved in?
Polly Buckland: So throughout the year, we have a slide deck open and it's called our Sustainability scrapbook. And any decisions we make or anything that we do mindfully around the sustainability of the business, anyone can chuck into that deck. It doesn't look pretty, but it's just a repository. Show us putting our money where our mouth is and making decisions that might not directly impact our scope, but could have a real social impact, for example. So we use that Sustainability scrapbook to help build up the story in our impact report for the following year. I think businesses are going through a lot of change at the moment, and there might quite naturally be a theme that pops up when you're starting your impact report journey for the year. So last year, for us, it was educating ourselves and other people.
Polly Buckland: So we'd done a lot of training internally, but we'd also created our digital cleanup challenge to help people understand their digital footprint. So that became the thread that worked its way through our impact report last year. This year, we have defined down our services. So our impact report is about kind of slaying in your own lane and being really clear on what it is that you do to reduce waste. Yet naturally, if the people that are writing and communicating your impact report are close to the decision making, you'll probably quite naturally know where your report is going to go in that any one year. If you outsource it, so we support businesses to help them tell their story through their impact report. We interview the key decision makers in the business and we will really draw from them that narrative.
Polly Buckland: And I think it's really easy to get bogged down in the data. It's incredibly important, but it can be quite stressful gathering that all together. So actually having someone interview you about, but what were the things that you loved? What were the things that you saw people coming into your attraction really engage with? What was the thing that surprised you about signage that you put up to do with sustainability? Or, I don't know, when you get the little activity sheets for the kids, what did the younger visitors engage with the most? Asking them that sort of question will really draw out the story to help bring the impact report to life.
Paul Marden: Yeah, and I love the scrapbook idea. I love the scrapbook idea just more broadly as just a place for the whole team to dump their thoughts about doing different things. So having one all about sustainability. It must capture so much that the more senior people, the people that lead the organisation, they may not see some of the smaller stuff going on, and they're. They could be really powerful stories. So it kind of makes it much more democratic across the team, doesn't it? To have a place where everyone can put their thoughts about sustainability and record the little things that they're doing. And then you can draw those stories out later on.
Polly Buckland: 100%. But you can use those stories to engage your customers as well. I've been on a couple of panels, the B Corp type events, and I've sat alongside a lady called Faye, who owns Beevive, which are the little vials that revive bees. I think they're in the Natural History Museum shop, and they're not B Corp yet, but they are a manufacturer. So their raw materials, their packaging, the mileage, their distribution, everything has to be considered. And what Faye and her team are excellent at is documenting all of that. And it's like we said one of the panels, just because you don't wear your Fitbit doesn't mean you haven't done the steps. And I think it is the same with sustainability accreditations. You might not be ready to be B Corp. You might not be ready to go through an ISO accreditation or GRI reporting.
Polly Buckland: You might not be ready to be B Corp. You might not be ready to go through an ISO accreditation or GRI reporting. You might not be legally required to do any of that. But let's start documenting it because people care. And you could run one initiative at your attraction, and that's you off the mark. You've started your sustainability story, and I think that should be documented and that should be shared with your audiences.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So that story that you can tell, I guess, is kind of reusable, isn't it? Because it's not just about, you know, you start off thinking about sustainability reporting. I'm going to have annual report and I'm going to publish it. But this is a story that can thread through everything, I guess.
Polly Buckland: Yeah, 100%. I think this is the same with all content produced across most businesses, to be honest. Lots and lots of hours go into creating something, and then it gets shared once on LinkedIn or there's a paid Facebook campaign, and then it dies a death. I saw someone on LinkedIn the other day, say, for every hour you take to produce a piece of content, you should spend the same amount of time distributing it. And I think that sustainability reports, impact reports, can take weeks, if not months. So as part of your reporting, I would have a distribution strategy as well. So where are all the places that you can get people to engage with that report? Is there a QR code in the cafe at your attraction where it's like, do you want to have a look at what we're doing for sustainability?
Polly Buckland: Is it an email that goes through to all your members? I would imagine that investors want to see this type of information. I would imagine that it would be really important to go onto the bottom of job descriptions when you're recruiting because there is a huge influx of people out there in the market that want to work for purposeful businesses. So this impact or sustainability report should go everywhere, really, in the footer of your emails. You just want to get eyeballs on it. And of course you can break it down. Kew Gardens have got a really great video on YouTube about their sustainability mission. What I would say is, don't hide it. And I think previously, sustainability reporting sits with other financial reports and policies in the footer of a website.
Polly Buckland: I looked earlier at an attraction that me and my family love going to, and they have some really nice bits of sustainability messaging when you're there. I couldn't find their sustainability report on their website. It was kind of the group website and then it was hidden away in a sub sustainability page. And I think transparency is really important. And bringing your sustainability report to the conversation, not hiding it away once you spent all those hours creating it.
Paul Marden: Yeah, there was a. There's an attraction that we visited just recently that were talking to, and they've got biomass boiler on their site, and they coppice wood from the site and they use that coppiced wood then to power the biomass boiler, which then powers the hot water that people are sitting in hot tubs and enjoying. You know, there's a really powerful story to tell there about the sustainability of going to that place. And that's something that they recognise is not something that they're not telling that story very effectively. And I think for a lot of people in the UK, now they're making decisions about what they do for their long weekends or their holidays, even on the basis of trying to have a minimal impact.
Paul Marden: And if you've lost that story, even, you know, even the people that are doing lots of amazing work may not be spotting the opportunities to tell the story of what they're doing to be heard by those people that make the decisions.
Polly Buckland: Yeah. And I think that they're photo opportunities as well. Right. So if you're in a hot tub and there's a little sign saying this is powered by wood from the estate, that's a little Instagram opportunity for those people to be righteous about the choices they've made, about what attraction they've chosen to go to. So I think more and more there's an opportunity for user generated content with sustainability messaging on site. So, yeah, everything's really an opportunity to share that message and it shouldn't be just contained to the impact report.
Paul Marden: I was at the Natural History Museum last week with my daughter's class. I took the class, I was one of the responsible adults going along with them. And I had 15 10 year olds in the gift shop at the end. And of course I'm just stood there like a numpty in the middle, just watching them all, trying to make sure they would make a decision as quickly as they possibly could. And I did find myself looking at the signage that was in the shop and they were talking about their sustainability journey and how they reduced single use plastics from what they were doing and they tried to improve the sustainability of the gifts that were available in the shop. So those messages are there, but are they consistent? Are they shared everywhere?
Paul Marden: So that wherever people are touching that brand, is it available for them to understand that it's a sustainable brand? It's important, isn't it?
Polly Buckland: Yeah.
Paul Marden: So I think you've touched on this, but let's just. Is this something you would do on your own or is this something where you would get in help from experts to get you started?
Polly Buckland: I would get help because you've got to factor in the hours in your day as having a value. So the length of time it would take you to figure out how to do an audit on your business and to work out your starting point and to get your initial scope one, two and three emissions measured is probably going to take you three or four times as long as it would a consultant. So if you can, I would do that. If you can't, there are some great tools out there I mentioned Compare Your Footprint and their customer service is really excellent. So if you want to start simple, you can. But if you have the budget, I would go with a consultant because you'll get to where you want to go, which is ultimately to find your baseline quicker.
Paul Marden: Yeah. Is this something where you start small and get a consultant in maybe to help you with a small part of the organisation? Or is this something where you really want to be throwing your all into this to try to do everything that is kind of best practice all at once?
Polly Buckland: Oh, no. No one's perfect. So don't hold yourself to that standard because it's just going to stop you doing anything out of fear. I think you just need to get started. That said, hitting publish on my first ever impact report was one of the most stressful things I've ever done because I just felt like I was going to be judged.
Paul Marden: I think that worries me as well, is that thought that unless I do a perfect job, there's a risk that when I put this out there, that I'm going to be accused of greenwashing, and that my intent may not be well understood if I don't do it perfectly first time.
Polly Buckland: Yeah. Which is why, again, that storytelling part of the impact reporting is really important for me, because I will say we are not perfect. These are the things that we know we need to work on, but these are the things we've done better. And that's what I really like. The B Corp BIA assessment and their framework is because it takes you across five categories of measurement, and no one's perfect in any of them, but what it does do is it provides a framework for you to better and measure yourself against. Yeah, I think the messaging behind your sustainability is really important. If you're professing to be perfect and you're not, you will get stung, because I think people can see through that.
Polly Buckland: But if you are showing that you're trying to better, I don't think many people could argue with that. So it's not just environmental reporting from a B Corp standpoint, it takes you across governance, workers, community, the environment, and your customers. There is a real breadth to that framework. So, actually, on our first go at certification, I guess our strongest category was governance.
Paul Marden: Oh, really? Okay.
Polly Buckland: Yeah. And then you have three years to make changes, make improvements. It's a continuous improvement journey, for want of a better word. And we're just about to re accredit. We're going through re accreditation now after three years, and you can see significant improvement across those categories.
Paul Marden: So that B Corp framework, that's going to be relevant to quite a lot of attractions that are profit making organisations. But of course, people like our charity based museums and some of the cultural organisations that could be non profit making. The B Corp route might not work for them, but it's something that quite a lot of consumers recognise now, isn't it?
Polly Buckland: It is. And the B impact assessment tool is still a useful framework, regardless if you want to become accredited or not, because it takes you through the five categories to focus on. And actually, I think if you're starting your impact reporting and you're not sure where to begin, it's a really nice framework to use.
Paul Marden: Lovely. Polly, really interesting talking to you about sustainability reporting and then going off and talking a little bit about B Corp and places like that as well. It's been lovely. We always ask our guests to leave us with a book recommendation, something they love, or it can be anything, a personal book recommendation, a business book. So what have you brought with you today?
Polly Buckland: I absolutely love Manifest by Roxy Nafousi, 7 steps to living your best life. It's not a book about visualise it and it will happen. It's a book that takes you through the steps to improve your chances of achieving what you want to in life. It takes you through your vision, removing fear and doubt, how you can align your behaviour to get what you want, how you can overcome tests from the universe, how you can embrace gratitude, turn envy into inspiration and trust the universe. So it sounds a bit woo, but everyone that I know that's read it absolutely loves it.
Paul Marden: What a lovely recommendation, Polly. Thank you. So that will go onto our list of the books recommended by our guests, which are blog posts that we've got. And as ever, if you want to win the book, if you head over to X and you retweet the episode announcement with the words I want Polly's book, the first person that does that will get the book sent to them. Once again, thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast and talking to me about sustainability reporting. It's been lovely. Thank you.
Polly Buckland: You're welcome. Thank you.
Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
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Kelly's final episode
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Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

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https://carbonsix.digital/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/
Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn’t know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile.
https://www.rubbercheese.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellymolson/
Kelly Molson is the Founder of Rubber Cheese, a user focused web design and development agency for the attraction sector. Digital partners to Eureka! The National Children’s Museum, Pensthorpe, National Parks UK, Holkham, Visit Cambridge and The National Marine Aquarium.Kelly regularly delivers workshops and presentations on sector focused topics at national conferences and attraction sector organisations including ASVA, ALVA, The Ticketing Professionals Conference and the Museum + Heritage Show.
As host of the popular Skip the Queue Podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions, she speaks with inspiring industry experts who share their knowledge of what really makes an attraction successful.Recent trustee of The Museum of the Broads.
Our guests:
Paul Wright from Made by Wag
Andy Povey from Convious
Looking forward to 2023: Key digital trends attractions shouldn’t miss out on
Bernard Donoghue from ALVA
Season finale, with Bernard Donoghue!
David Hingley from BOP Consulting
Visitor Experience restructure at Tate, with David Hingley
Paul Griffiths from Painshill Park
The transformation of Painshill Park, with Paul Griffiths, Director of Painshill
Ross Ballinger from Drayton Manor
The importance of building a great social community and process behind rebranding a 70 year old attraction
Danielle Nicholls from Alton Towers
The importance of building a great social community and process behind rebranding a 70 year old attraction
Rachel Mackay from Hampton Court Palace
The importance of Sector Cooperation with Carlton Gajadhar and Rachel Mackay
Sophie from Eureka! The National Children's Museum
How to write a website brief that agencies will thank you for, with Sophie Ballinger
Elizabeth McKay, CEO of the London Transport Museum
Developing a culture of innovation, with Elizabeth McKay
Simon Addison from The Roman Baths
How introducing variable pricing increased revenue by 2.3 million, with Simon Addison
Dominic Jones from The Mary Rose and Portsmouth Historic Dockyard
Attraction partnerships and rivalries, with Dominic Jones
Transcription:
Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions.
Paul Marden: On today's episode, I'm joined by my co host, Kelly Molson, founder of Rubber Cheese, as well as a group of returning guests to the podcast. This is Kelly's last episode as the host of Skip the Queue as she's leaving rubber cheese after 21 fantastic years of the agency. Today we'll be turning the tables on Kelly as the guests ask her the icebreaker questions. We'll also be looking back at the impact the podcast has had as some of our guests share their experiences of appearing on the podcast with Kelly.
Kelly Molson: If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.
Paul Marden: So, how you doing?
Kelly Molson: I feel slightly. I feel slightly apprehensive. You just said, like, are you ready? Have you got your tissues ready? Like I have. I'm prepared.
Paul Marden: Good. So, listeners, today is a big episode, as well as being on 99th episode is also Kelly's last episode as the Skip the Queue host. Yeah. So many of you will know that after 21 years heading up Rubber Cheese, Kelly has decided to spread her wings and move on to pastures new.
Paul Marden: And while this is news from many of the listeners, I've had a few months to prepare for this. So I've been thinking long and hard about this episode of what can I do? And I thought it'd be nice to look back at some of your best bits, but I didn't feel like I should do that on my own. I actually thought the best way of looking back at your best bits are to bring your best bits back to us. So I'm just gonna admit a load of people that want to join the edge.
Kelly Molson: Oh, no.
Paul Marden: So we have got a host of po face and audience members that are going to join us today.
Kelly Molson: I'm going to cry already.
Paul Marden: Excellent. I've done my job to start with straight away, so everyone's joined us for a virtual leaving party. So I hope you've got your whatsits in a bowl and your cheese and pineapple ready for you as we look back over some of your best bits and enjoy a Skip the Queue episode at its best. And so, for those of you that are listening and not watching, first of all, where have you been? These aren't facestrail radio. You should be subscribing on YouTube and watch these lovely people. But if you're listening, let me introduce you to the host of people that are joining us. We've got Andy Povey from Convious. We've got Bernard Donoghue from ALVA. We've got David Hingley from BOP Consulting. We've got Rachel Mackay from Hampton Court Palace. Sophie Ballinger from Eureka!
Kelly Molson: You're supposed to be on holiday.
Paul Marden: Sophie from Eureka! The National Children's Museum. We've got Ross Ballinger from Drayton Manor. We've got Dominic Jones from the Mary Rose. And we've also been joined by some of your lovely Rubber Cheese colleagues that wanted to say hi and goodbye.
Kelly Molson: Look at everyone's beautiful faces. Oh, God.
Paul Marden: And the tissues are going already.
Kelly Molson: Do you know what? Just before I came on, I was like, I'm not going to cry. I am completely in control of today. If it was yesterday, I would have cried, but I'm completely in control today. I am not in control at all.
Paul Marden: So, long time listeners will know that we always start off with an icebreaker question. And Kelly never tells the guests what the icebreaker question is in advance. So I'm afraid, Kelly, it's your turn. Bernard, you're going to kick off for us today. Would you like to ask Kelly your icebreaker question?
Bernard Donoghue: Thank you. Claudia Winkleman. I'm delighted to join this episode of The Traitors.
Paul Marden: Have you got the fringe to be Claudia? I'm sorry.
Kelly Molson: No, we have not.
Bernard Donoghue: Kelly, it's World Book day tomorrow. You've received short notice. What book do you go as to work, please?
Kelly Molson: Oh, I would. I'd have to take one of my daughter's books. So she has got this book called Oh, no, George. And it's about an incredibly naughty dog with. He's a ginger dog with a very long nose. I would have to dress up as George because he doesn't do himself any favours. He hopes that he's going to be good, but he's just. He can't cope with being good and he eats all the cake and he knocks over all the tulips in the house and he's incredibly lovable, but incredibly naughty. So definitely George. That's me. Right.
Bernard Donoghue: It's a lovely insight into your personality.
Paul Marden: Perfect.
Kelly Molson: Great question.
Paul Marden: It is a great question. I hope you're ready for a few more because we've got some of these lined up for you. So the next. The next person that's going to join us, unfortunately couldn't be here today, so they sent me a little message that we'll play now.
Paul Wright: Hi, Kelly. Remember me? It's Wag here.
Kelly Molson: This is my old co founder.
Paul Wright: My question to you. If every time someone clicked on a website and it made a sound. What noise would you want it to make?
Kelly Molson: Oh, it has to be a big old fart noise, right? A real big wet one, like a whoopee cushion. Fart noise, please. Thank you.
Paul Marden: So, Mrs. Marden, over breakfast this morning, as were talking through what I was going to talk about, said, oh, she's just going to say wet fart, surely.
Kelly Molson: Absolutely.
Paul Marden: She knows you so well.
Kelly Molson: She’s my level
Paul Marden: Completely. Next up, we've got Mr. Andy Povey.
Andy Povey: Hi, Kelly. It's been a while. So I'm very pleased to be here, but not for the reason that we are all there for. We spend a lot of time on the road, travelling around for our jobs. So my question is, what's your favourite motorway service station and why?
Kelly Molson: I tell you what, Peterborough motorway service station. Because I know that I'm probably an hour from home then, so I'm nearly home. I've had a good few coffees in Peterborough service station.
Andy Povey: I've not tried that one, I must admit.
Kelly Molson: I mean, I don't know if it's up there with, like, the best, but, you know, I just. I know that I'm going to be home soon.
Paul Marden: Bit depressing that the favourite motorway service is the one that's closest to home for you. Thank you, Andy. Next up, so here's a surprise. Danielle Nicholls from Alton Towers, you've managed to join us.
Danielle Nicholls: So my question to you, Kelly, is you've worked with a lot of attractions and theme parks over the years, but which is your favourite theme park attraction or ride that you've ever been on?
Kelly Molson: This is not a good question to ask, is it? Because I'm going to upset people.
Danielle Nicholls: You can be diplomatic about it.
Kelly Molson: My favourite ride, definitely not those ones that swing and literally make you one of them. My favourite ride. It's really hard. Yeah, it's really hard. Well, I was just trying to think of, like, where do I go with this? But I'm going to go with the one. It was mine and my dad's favourite when I was a kid and it doesn't exist anymore, which is really sad, but it's the Back to the Future ride at Universal.
Kelly Molson: Which was absolutely epic and I can remember years ago queuing up like four times on the trot to go on it with my dad and he just. It was just brilliant. Absolutely absolute. I mean, I love that. I love eighties music movies. Yeah. My genre, anyway, but, yeah, that ride was absolutely incredible. Oh, that's amazing.
Danielle Nicholls: I never got to do that one so very jealous.
Kelly Molson: Good memories.
Paul Marden: Paul Griffiths, can you take the floor and give Kelly a grilling?
Paul Griffiths: Of course. Hi, Kelly. Good to see you. And good to see everyone else. We know that you love picking up souvenirs and knickknacks on your travels, particularly attractions. So what is your favourite souvenir you've taken away from one of your best tourist attractions?
Kelly Molson: I've got them all here. Look at them. I've got my bounty on my desk.
Paul Griffiths: The show and tell answer then, isn't it?
Kelly Molson: Look, I've got. Yeah. Okay. What's my favourite one, though?
Paul Marden: For listeners, hey can't see you picking up a dodgy eighties ice cream box.
Kelly Molson: This is my ‘80s. It's a Bijam economy vanilla ice cream tub, which my parents were obviously really keen on feeding us well as a child. But in it are, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of rubbers that I've collected from different places and attractions over the years. And they smell. I wish this was smellyvision because they absolutely smell divine. There's so many in here. But I think, again, this is. And this is for memories. I'm going to go with this one and it's really old. This is my Thorpe Park rubber.
Paul Griffiths: Very classic.
Kelly Molson: Isn't it great? So it's got the Thorpe park rabbit on it. Rangers.
Danielle Nicholls: Is it the Thorpe Park Rangers?
Kelly Molson: Yeah. Yeah. Thorpe Park Ranger. Yeah. Thorpe Park. So that was, again, that was probably the closest attraction to the closest theme park to me as a kid, and we used to go there a lot and, like, my uncle used to take me there in the summer holidays. The whole family used to go. So that one has got really good memories. That's a great question, Paul. There's so many in here, though, that I could have chosen.
Paul Griffiths: I didn't age to have them all to hand, though.
Kelly Molson: That sat on my desk.
Paul Marden: So I promised you that we would try and faithfully stick to the format once you hand the Batman to me. So I'm going to give you a breather from being grilled by everybody. What was your unpopular opinion that you wanted to share with everybody?
Kelly Molson: Peas. Peas. Peas are the food of the devil. Peas taint everything that they touch. Sometimes. Nobody tells you that there's peas in stuff on the menu as well. Like, I love a fish pie. Fish pie is delicious. When you open up a fish pie and someone's gone. No, we'll just throw a few handful of peas in there just for a laugh. That's not fun. You can pick them out of stuff, but you can taste them in absolutely everything that they are in.
Paul Marden: That's not an unpopular opinion, that's just. That's just a fact. I don't know how everybody else feels about peas, but I'm a pea hater as well.
Sophie Ballinger: Oh, what about cheesy peas?
Kelly Molson: No, cheesy peas. Even cheese would not make peas taste appealing to me.
Dominic Jones: Wasabi peas?
Kelly Molson: No.
Danielle Nicholls: Minty peas?
Kelly Molson: No peas. I like beans. Beans are okay. And like edamame beans, which I like peas. But not peas. It's just a very distinct difference.
Bernard Donoghue: Nurse. Nurse. She's out of bed again.
Sophie Ballinger: Where do you stand on mushy peas?
Kelly Molson: Oh, so far from mushy peas. I did have to cook them once for Lee's old granddad. Oh, God. No.
Paul Marden: Guacamole as. Who was it? It was one of the politicians and labour politics.
Andy Povey: Peter Mandelson.
Paul Marden: There we go. Peter Mandelson went into a fish and chip shop and asked to have guacamole with his fish and chips and it turned out was mushy peas.
Kelly Molson: I'd eat guacamole with my chips. That's fine.
Paul Marden: So should we go back to grilling you on some.
Kelly Molson: This whole episode is just awkward questions for me. Is it great?
Paul Marden: You've done this to everybody for 99 episodes. It's your turn to take one. Rachel Mackay from Hampton Court Palace, welcome.
Rachel Mackay: Oh, hello. I've decided to go against the grade. I'm not going to ask your revision question because I know you'll just stare blankly at me anyway, so I'm going to go more general. What is your preference, running shoes or dancing shoes?
Kelly Molson: Oh, dancing shoes. Dancing shoes all the way. I really miss dancing. You don't get to dance enough when you get older. Dancing is the one thing that I used to really love doing with my friends.
Rachel Mackay: I thought you would say dancing shoes because also it gives you a bit of a heel.
Kelly Molson: Which I need. No, you're absolutely right.
Paul Marden: So the dancing. You'll be able to get them back out again soon because, what, Eddie's two now? Two and a bit. It will soon be birthday party season, where you'll be doing the hokey cokey and you'll be doing the conga.
Kelly Molson: And she's already got all my moves. She's already got all my moves. Yeah, she's in the dancing zone.
Paul Marden: Excellent. Next up, we've got somebody else that couldn't join us today, so they've sent us another little video to share with you. So this is Simon Addison from the Roman Baths and number two in the hour, top ten paid attractions outside London. And I say, sorry, Dominic.
Dominic Jones: He deserves it. He's a great guy. And so is the Roman Baths.
Paul Marden: Exactly. You haven't heard what he says yet.
Simon Addison: Hey, Kelly, it's Simon Addison here from the Roman Baths. I'm really sorry that I couldn't be with you for the recording today. Before I ask you my ice breaker question, I just wanted to tell you about the impact that skip the queue is having, not just on those people who work in visitor attractions, but those who visit them too. Last month, I was walking around the National Portrait Gallery with Dominic Jones and a visitor genuinely pulled him over and asked him if he was the Dominic Jones from Skip the Queue. Kelly, you have created an absolute monster there.
Kelly Molson: I love this.
Dominic Jones: That is actually true. It actually happened. We were a bit bemused by it and were worried that someone had set this visitor up, but they genuinely wanted a Korean visitor attractions and had listened to it and I'd obviously said my name a bit too loud to Simon and they came up and asked for a picture. It was completely random, but brilliant.
Paul Marden: I'm a little bit heartbroken because I actually genuinely thought they spotted the face and knew you from the YouTube.
Dominic Jones: I think it was the voice, but, yeah, no, it was brilliant. It's all because of Skip the Queue, which is Simon's rise had a massive impact on everyone in our industry and actually people who want to join our industry. So you should be really proud. And hopefully that's the last random stranger that stopped me. But it was fantastic.
Kelly Molson: Do you know what? I do feel really proud of that.
Paul Marden: So, Simon's question.
Simon Addison: Kelly, my icebreaker question for you is what is the weirdest piece of advice that you've ever received? And did you follow it? Thanks very much, Kelly, and thanks for everything. Thanks for all the episodes over the years and I wish you the very best of luck with everything.
Kelly Molson: I'm trying to think what has been. Do you know, I have been given some advice about public speaking before, which I thought was quite strange. I used to really. I used to get really anxious about public speaking. It wasn't something that was massively comfortable for me. And I had loads of coaching from a really good friend of mine, Andy Loparta. And I don't know if it was Andy. I don't think this was Andy that gave me this advice. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been. But someone told me that if you go on stage and you clench your butt cheeks, you can't actually clench anything else. At the same time. And I'm like. I am, though. I'm clenching my butt cheeks now and I'm clenching my teeth so you can. But that's always stuck in my head.
Kelly Molson: So I definitely tried it, but I don't know that it helped with my speaking whatsoever. I'm doing it now. Is everyone. Is everyone doing it now? Is everyone trying it? Everyone's doing it.
Paul Marden: Standing desk practicing it right now.
Sophie Ballinger: Yeah. Start bobbing up and down in my seat. You'll know why.
Kelly Molson: There you go.
Paul Marden: Lovely segue. Sophie Ballinger from Eureka. Why don't you ask Kelly your icebreaker?
Kelly Molson: Hello, duck.
Sophie Ballinger: Hello, duck. Hey, I've got a bit of a random one. I think I might have. It might have been asked you this in the agency interview many years ago, but I'm not sure because it's one of my favourites. Who would win in a fight between a badger and a baboon?
Kelly Molson: I don't remember you asking me this.
Sophie Ballinger: Should have done.
Kelly Molson: Badger. I think Badger. Badgers are quite vicious, aren't they? You think the boots. Everyone's shaking their head. Oh, I think badger. I've never seen a live badger either, but I know that they're quite vicious.
Paul Marden: We went into South Africa a few years ago and we stopped because we saw a troop of baboons on the side of the road and there were other people watching. So everybody got out their cars and they all stood around. All of a sudden, this alpha male baboon just crosses the road to the car behind us, opens the back door, gets into the woman's handbag when he's rifling through trying to find chocolate and she's sat in the front seat going absolutely crazy. So I promise you it'll be the baboon. So next up, we've got another video. Joining us this time it is Elizabeth McKay, CEO of the London Transport Museum.
Elizabeth Mckay: Hi, Kelly. You were the nicest interviewer I ever had. So my question for you is equally nice, I hope. So, when you're getting around London, what's your favourite mode of travel? Is it tube, bus or cycle?
Kelly Molson: Oh, I actually prefer to walk, so neither of the above. I know. Sorry. I'm sorry. I like. So I have to get the train in. So my train is the Liverpool street line. So I tend to get off. You know, I go. I'll go to Liverpool street and then I quite like to walk places. I do like the tube. Not gonna dis the tube, especially not to Elizabeth. But I quite like the opportunity to go and see stuff. And I think walking around London, everything feels everything so close together.
Kelly Molson: So it's nice to be able to just walk and see things that you wouldn't normally see.
Bernard Donoghue: Can I just point out that I've seen Kelly getting out of a disco rickshaw at least three times in the last week.
Kelly Molson: Fake news. Fake news.
Paul Marden: Now, Kelly, you did say to me that you had a few thank you messages that you wanted to share with people. So do you want to just have a couple of minutes to thank some people?
Kelly Molson: Yes, I would. I would like to thank everybody because people have always been so incredibly generous with their time for me, and I'm always so grateful of that. You're generous to come on and talk to me. You're generous to come on and answer my ridiculous questions, but generous to share all your insight and knowledge. And I think especially through the pandemic, that meant an incredible amount to me and hopefully to our listeners as well. It really felt like people were coming on and sharing kind of a real time. This is where we're at. This is what's happening, and this is what we're doing about it. Experience. And it was amazing.
Kelly Molson: The pandemic was incredibly difficult for everybody, but for me, the highlight was knowing that I was getting to speak to so many different people and being able to share that with other people as well. And it made it a really special time for me. So thank you for everybody that has ever come on the podcast and answered my stupid questions and shared all of their stuff with me. Thank you. Thank you to all of the listeners. I genuinely could not have imagined. I could not have imagined how well this podcast would go. I honestly can remember the day that I came in, I was like, “We should definitely do this podcast. I've been looking. I don't think there's anything like it. We should do it.” And my team going, “Yeah, how do we do it? I don't know. Let's just do it, though.”
Kelly Molson: And this is what happens. I come up with these crazy ideas, and I'm the driver of them, but it's all the people around me that actually make the magic happen. And that is. That's for the podcast, that's for the survey, the report, the agency itself. All I've done is just kind of drag it along and share it with people. It's all the other people behind the scenes that do it. Steve works his magic every single episode. He really does. He cuts out a lot of swearing. The very professional introductions that I record separately to the interviews. Jesus. The amount of swearing that he has to cut out on those is ridiculous. So well done, Steve, mate, you deserve that award winning podcast editor title just for this. And Wenalyn. So Wenalyn down here waving. She.
Kelly Molson: I mean, she really is the powerhouse behind the podcast because I'll get you to come on. We'll have a lovely chat. It goes over to Steve for the editor, and it comes back to, well, and she does everything. She does everything. She creates all the graphics. She uploads everything to the, you know, the website, she does the transcriptions, she creates, does all the podcasts, all the scheduling, all of the. All of it. So, you know, she really does do all the hard grunt work behind it. So thank you, Wenalyn. It's been such a lovely. It's been lovely to work with you over the years. Thank you.
Paul Marden: Wenalyn wins the award for the longest distance journey into the meeting today because Wenalyn is over in the Philippines. Wenalyn wins this award in every single meeting that we have. So she does.
Kelly Molson: She does. There is one more. Thank you. I wanna make, which is to the unsung hero of Skip the Queue. So it's for an old team member of mine, Ashley Mays, because if it wasn't for her, actually, there probably wouldn't be a Skip the Queue. She made this happen, really. Not only did she come up with the name, but she actually got one of our first guests to agree to come onto the podcast. Because I can't tell you how difficult that first season was. If you've ever gone back, it actually launched in July 2019. This podcast, myself and my co founder, Wag, who asked the ridiculous question I answered with a fart earlier. We both used to interview guests, but if you've ever tried to get someone to come onto a podcast and they go, great. Yeah.
Kelly Molson: How many listeners and downloads have you got? You're like, none. Absolutely none. No listeners. You are our first guest. Please help us make something magic. That was quite a hard sell. Ashley had a family member who agreed to come onto the podcast, and it was actually Lynne Whitnall, who is the director of Paradise Wildlife Park, which is now Hertfordshire Zoo. She was the biggest name that we could have possibly hoped for in that first series. So really, that was the kind of catalyst for all of the other amazing guests that have come on since. 2019 was a really tough year for Rubber Cheese, and I had to let Ashley go at the end of 2019, and I'll tell you now, that was the single worst thing that I've ever had to do in my whole career as an agency owner, because she was brilliant.
Kelly Molson: And I felt like I'd failed her at that time. So I really wanted to make sure that she got a big thank you. She's gone on and done brilliant things. Don't get me wrong, brilliant people always do. But that was genuinely the toughest thing that I've ever had to do. And it's probably my biggest regret of running the agency all of these years as well. So, yeah, big shout out to Ashley. She made a big difference.
Paul Marden: Every agency owner enjoys the fun bits, the launches, the winning new business. Nobody enjoys that bit. But it is this life, isn't it? So, yeah, it was a tough time for everybody, wasn't it? And you said that Ashley came up with the name as well, didn't she?
Kelly Molson: She did, yeah. Skip the Queue was all Ashley. I take no credit for that whatsoever.
Paul Marden: Amazing.
Danielle Nicholls: What a moment that was. That was really touching.
Kelly Molson: Thank you.
Paul Marden: Keep it together, mate. You've still got a few minutes to go.
Kelly Molson: Okay?
Paul Marden: So let's segue for some light relief to Ross Ballinger from Drayton Manor.
Kelly Molson: Now, I'm not gonna lie, I'm really apprehensive about this. Ross.
Ross Ballinger: Hello, lovely.
Kelly Molson: Hi, Ross.
Ross Ballinger: It's so nice to see and hear you. I feel like.
Kelly Molson: Likewise, mate.
Ross Ballinger: I've only known you, like, a short space of time but you were such a champion for me and Danielle when you spotted us at theme park award a few years ago.
Danielle Nicholls: Really.
Ross Ballinger: And we're just so grateful for that. You spotted our passion and our energy for the industry and obviously we just gravitated toward each other. Anything you've done for all the other professionals in the industry as well. So true testament to everything that you've done it just. It's all paid off and everyone loves you and thank you so much for everything on Skip the Queue.
Kelly Molson: Oh, mate.
Ross Ballinger: No, honestly, I think that was probably one of the best years I ever had in the industry, really, because it, like, it did stem up a couple of things did, like, fall out at the back of it because it got. It got me a little bit of 15 minutes of fame that I really enjoyed. And then I managed to do some presentations with different things and owe credit to you, really, for just, like, putting us in the limelight for a little bit.
Kelly Molson: I'm so pleased. I'm so pleased. I just want to tell the story because I met the two of you at the UK theme park awards. It was at Drayton Manor, wasn't it? And these guys are on the table behind me and I've never had such enthusiasm. You two were the light, I mean, that. It was a bit of a. It was a bit of a. It was a. It was a tough crowd, wasn't it? Everyone was quite subdued in there, but used to, like, “Yes,” shouting and just.
Danielle Nicholls: Basically every time anyone won, even if it was like, Pleasure Beach or being anyone. We were like, “Yeah, go guys.”
Ross Ballinger: We were wooing everybody.
Kelly Molson: What awards do should be like. Like, you two were like the Persona of an awards day. It was. It was so good to meet you that day. I had the best day meeting you two, and I just knew that I had to get you both on the podcast, and you were such a little dream team at Drayton Manor. And now, you know, you've set off on your different paths, but it's lovely to see. For me, it's really. I think it's brilliant to see where you're all going and what your good things are.
Ross Ballinger: Yeah. Thank you.
Danielle Nicholls: That's really kind. Thank you.
Ross Ballinger: Yeah, it was just one of those cases of, like, sat in the right place at the right time and the rest is history. Like, yeah, loved it. Loved the meeting on that day. Instant connection, you know? And you just get an instant connection with someone who shares the same energy and passion and insight, and they understand what you're doing and what you stand for. So, yeah, it was a really good day. Loved it. My icebreaker question, I did have four. Actually, so I don't even know if Paul knows what. I'm going to be honest.
Paul Marden: Well, I'm taking the other two that you did send me because they were awesome.
Ross Ballinger: I'm going to go with, if you could switch live with any fictional character, who would it be?
Kelly Molson: It's a really good question. You need to. You have. You've wrote all these down, right? This is a good one.
Ross Ballinger: Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly Molson: With any fictional character. I'm trying to think of all the books that I've just thinking about. Well, okay. I've got this thing about reading. Like, if you go on holiday, I like to take, like, a really familiar book with me on holiday that you've read, like, a million times. And I don't know why. I've read The Beach, like, a billion times, which is far better than the film. Like, far better than the film. And I can't actually remember a guy's name in it now. It's gone off my head. But the Leonardo DiCaprio character in the book, I will swap lives with him because I feel like that whole travelling culture, I never got to do that. I wasn't brave enough to do that when I was younger, and I'd really like to go and do it now, but it's really difficult for toddler.
Paul Marden: Not brave enough to do that. But you were brave enough to jack it all in and set up an agency 20 years ago.
Kelly Molson: Yeah. Should I have done the travelling? Who knows? But, yeah, I think, yeah, I would swap places with him, although he goes a little bit crazy towards the end. I'd take that.
Ross Ballinger: Thanks for your long lasting impact on a door. Thank you very much. Love you.
Paul Marden: Well said, Ross. Crack and jog. So I'm going to take that and segue off quite nicely now to a video from your greatest fan, my daughter, Miss Amelia Marden. She wanted to be part of this, but she's busy at school today, so she sent you in a question and she said,
Amelia Marden: Hello, Kelly. I've seen the video of the roller coaster you and dad went on at Drayton Manor. My question is, what is your favourite sort of roller coaster? Vertical drop or a loop de loop? Love you from Amelia.
Paul Marden: For listeners. I kept it together on that roller coaster. There was no noise. I was completely composed. Everything was fine until it started moving at the beginning.
Kelly Molson: So was this. No, hang on a minute. Was this the, this was the in the Viking. This is the Viking one, wasn't it? Because we've been on two roller coasters together. And the second one, it was in the rain and there was a lot of screaming in my ear as well. The first one was. Yeah, the first one was relatively screamy as well. What is my favourite? I like the shock of a drop. I do like a loop a loop. I'm cool with those. But there's something about like that. There's a, there's a motion sickness thing with me that is a bit. So the drop one I quite like. And again, this has got another good memory of my dad is that is Terra Towers. He loves the Terror Towers drop so much.
Kelly Molson: My dad's got this thing in his head about taking Edie to Disney. Like my dad. My dad best in, he'll be when she's five, he'll be like 76. So, you know, he's getting on and he's like, that's my cutoff point. We're going to go to Disney when she's five, whether we all like it or not, because I can't do it any older than that. And he's like, we're going to go on Terror Towers, aren't we, Dad? I don't know if you should, dad. It's almost, I feel like maybe it was trigger of a heart attack. I don't know. A bit worried. But he's adamant that he's, you know.
Paul Marden: He's going to Edie's five and we're taking them on to Terror Towers.
Kelly Molson: Maybe it's going to work, Dad.
Paul Marden: I think we don't need to set dad's expectations, teacups. And it's a small world and that's about it.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, I'll have that chat with him.
Paul Marden: And we have got a message in from Mister David Hingley.
David Hingley: So I sit in a lot of meetings with Kelly, either in person or online, in her role as a trustee at Museum of the Broads. And it's usually not as dramatic as it might be. We talk about steamboats, coal, and our upcoming Pete exhibition, which is fascinating but can lack a bit of drama. So my question is, if every time you enter a room for the rest of your life a piece of entrance music plays, what piece of music are you choosing and why?
Kelly Molson: Oh, my God. I've never thought about this question. This is a great question. Why has everyone given me really good questions now that I'm leaving? You idiots.
Paul Marden: David is promising to play this at every future trustees meeting. As you arrive, he'll have Spotify on the phone ready to play.
Kelly Molson: What would be my entrance music? I feel like it's got to be something. It's got to be something dancy where I can get my groove on. So I feel like. Like this someone's. Loads of people have probably said this, but I feel like. Like here comes the hot stepper. Would be a good one for me because I can, you know, I can drive in. Here come the odd stepper, you know?
David Hingley: I'll record the next trustee meeting museums of the broad and circulates to this group.
Kelly Molson: Oh, please do.
Paul Marden: Thank you, David.
Kelly Molson: I'll tell you what. I'll do it at the AGM. I'll dance in at the AGM.
Paul Marden: So last up, we have Mr. Dominic Jones from the Mary Rose, who, along with Portsmouth Historic Dockyard, the third most popular paid attraction outside of London in the hour list released yesterday.
Dominic Jones: Yeah, very happy about that. Very happy.
Paul Marden: I can take you one better because still the undisputed most listened to podcast guest on Skip the Queue as of yesterday. Wow.
Dominic Jones: I honestly can't believe that.
Paul Marden: I know, I know. It's not as if you haven't dined out on that fact several times before.
Andy Povey: He doesn't like to talk about it, Paul.
Kelly Molson: He's so shy, doesn't he?
Dominic Jones: I am shy. I don't talk about myself. That's incredible. What did you say number one?
Paul Marden: Number one by country mile, I might say.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, by nearly a hundred downloads, actually.
Dominic Jones: Oh, well, that's fantastic. I'm absolutely honored about that. I have to say, I am so sad that Skip the Queue with Kelly is coming to an end because it's kept me company on many a motorway journey, on many a day when I've had a really tough day at work and thought, you know, what's going to cheer me up is Skip the Queue. Because not only do you motivate and inspire the next generation, like the person that sort of bumped into me and Simon, but you also motivate, inspire all of us. And actually, without Skip the Queue, and to be fair, ALVA as well, I don't think I'd have this amazing network of friends and colleagues that really keep me sane in some of the tough times.
Dominic Jones: So I know we often talk and Bernard talks about how visitor attractions are like sort of the fourth emergency service, I would say, when it comes to working in a visitor attraction, you and ALVA. So Skip the Queue and ALVA are the emergency services, because without you, I don't think we'd be sane. Absolutely. You've made such a difference to my personal life and I can't thank you enough. But for an icebreaker question, one of the things that irritates me on Skip the Queue is you can tell who Kellys favourites are. So if she has someone from the zoo and she likes them, whats your favourite animal? Or someone from a theme park, whats your favorite ride? And then she gets people that she just asks really difficult icebreakers. So I was thinking, how can I get the most random, hardest icebreaker?
Dominic Jones: And I was trying to remember, but when I was a child in the eighties and nineties growing up, a lot of my friends had Sky TV. We couldn't afford Sky TV. We had BBC One and BBC two. Well, on Sky TV there was this thing called WWF. Now, this was before the Internet. So I went to the library and worked out that it was about looking after animals. Turns out it wasn't. It was actually wrestling. And so I used to sort of been in the playground, talk to my friends, but never ever watching it, never really understanding it. So I'd be in my bedroom. I was very young at the time, pretending to be a WWF wrestler. I was the praying mantis, because I did watch BBC 2 a lot. Mantis, one of the very strongest animal in the animal kingdom.
Dominic Jones: But if you were a wrestler in the WWF, what would be your wrestling name?
Kelly Molson: I used to love the wrestling.
Dominic Jones: I bet you did. I bet you did.
Kelly Molson: I did. We went. So they did the one in the UK. They did the royal rumble and I had the finger and everything. Yeah. I used to like the bushwhackers and rowdy Roddy Piper and Jake the Snake. I was well into it. I was really into it. Yeah. I was not cool at school until I was well into the wrestling. So what would be my wrestling name?
Dominic Jones: Yeah. And why?
Kelly Molson: The trouble is, I'm a bit of a lover, not a fighter, so don't think I'd actually make a very good wrestler. I'm not actually that aggressive. Looking at me as if I've said something crazy, then I'm not a fight. I might have a fiery temper, but I'm not a fighter. Oh, God. It's. I don't know what rhymes. Like, Kelly's a really rubbish name to rhyme stuff, but Kick ass Kelly, it's rubbish, isn't it?
Dominic Jones: Good, that'll do.
Kelly Molson: Okay. Kick ass Kelly. Yeah. I don't know what would be my costume. There'd definitely be some neon in there. I feel like I'd be like the eighties girl. Like neon leggings and leg warmers and stuff. Yeah.
Dominic Jones: And maybe some fire in the background as well, just to spice it up. Yeah.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, maybe.
Paul Marden: I reckon there's got to be some cheese in there as well. You need some. You need some cheese in that wrestler name, ain't it?
Kelly Molson: There's not many cheeses that begin that, like, rhyme with Kelly either.
Dominic Jones: The worst ever icebreaker. I've ruined it.
Kelly Molson: Good question. No, I like it.
Dominic Jones: Oh, I should have done. What's your favourite boat? That's what I should have done.
Paul Marden: Oh, come on then.
Kelly Molson: What's my favourite boat? Well, it would have to be the falcon or the. Can't remember the name of the other one.
David Hingley: Well, the other one.
Kelly Molson: Is it the Marsh Harrier?
David Hingley: That's the one.
Kelly Molson: There you go. At the Museum of the Broads is a wonderful museum. You can also take your family out on a little boat trip. It's also dog friendly as well, you know, bring all your friends.
Dominic Jones: Great. Plug in one of your recent episodes. I was listening and thought about booking a holiday. It was a great plug in the last episode. You did?
Kelly Molson: Well, if you do fancy a little holiday trip to Norfolk, you know, there's a little holiday cottage that you could. You could hit me up for, Dominic. So just, you know, let me know.
Dominic Jones: Absolutely.
Paul Marden: I reckon I should have got 20 quid in my pocket every time you mention that guest house.
Kelly Molson: I really hope that someone books someday and they're like, “We heard it on Skip the Queue.” “Yes! It worked.”
Paul Marden: They'll insist on a discount. Thank you, Don. That was amazing. If any of our listeners would like to support any of the other guests and boost their listener figures to compete with Don, I'm going to put the details of everybody's episodes in the show notes, because frankly,
Dominic Jones: Why would you do that?
Kelly Molson: That's mean.
Dominic Jones: Why would you do that? Surely this is the end now. Number one, the end.
Paul Marden: We're talking load of nonsense and I need to put something in the show notes. So I thought I'd put the episodes that everybody was in on the show notes. Can you exclude one, Paul? Oh, I'm sure I can, yes.
Dominic Jones: I think yours is okay, Andy. I wouldn't exclude you. Yours was a great one.
Paul Marden: So they'll all be in the show notes. And lastly, all of our guests asked to pick a book that they love. So Kelly, what's your book?
Kelly Molson: I read this book right at the very start of my agency journey. A very good friend of mine, he's been a coach of mine for a number of years, said that you should read this book, and it is How to win friends and influence people by Dale Carnegie. It's a very old book, but it is a classic. And this book opened my eyes and ears. So it really taught me how to understand and listen to people. And I think for me, building an agency like we have over the years, so much of that comes down to listening to people, understanding what their challenges are. You know, we have to network. You know, a lot of what we do is based on reputation and how likable you can be and all of those kind of things.
Kelly Molson: And this book really gives you an understanding of that, about what it is to be likable. And you shouldn't have to teach this to people. Like, really, it's pretty common sense, but, you know, it can be difficult for people to understand, like, why you should listen to people and why you should just let people talk. And I think a lot of the things that I learned from this book, I have applied to the podcast, so I just want to read out a little synopsis. Well, some of the things that I think are really important about how you listen to people, and it's. It's about becoming genuinely interested in other people.
Kelly Molson: And I hope that has come across in this podcast, because every single person that has come on and shared with me has just given me so much to think about, and I've learned so much from you all. It teaches you to smile, like smiling is just so important. I've always been amazed at how many people that don't smile back when I smile at them when I'm out walking the dog in the morning. Just smiling is the simplest thing that you can do to connect with somebody. Remembering people's names. Remember that a person's name to that person is the most important sound in any language. Make sure that you can just remember people's names. Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves. And I hope that I've done that. I've always hoped this podcast, you know, it's not about me.
Kelly Molson: It won't be about Paul. It will be about all the guests that come on and still continue to come on and talk to us about their stories and their challenges and their initiatives and all the brilliant things that they do. And I hope that I have gone above and beyond in making other people feel important. And I hope I've been sincere in doing that as well because it is all about you. You all make this podcast amazing and I genuinely am so grateful that you've allowed me into your ears and allowed me to share everybody else's stories in a really fun way. So thank you.
Paul Marden: Kelly, that was really. Yeah, awesome. Listeners. If you'd like to win in Kelly's book, then head over to the show announcement on X and retweet as saying, I want Kelly's book. That just leaves me to say that we are busy planning season six now. Wanlyn and I met yesterday with Oz to start brainstorming ideas for what we can do in season six. If you've got ideas, then send them in. Let us know on Twitter. We'd love to hear those X, I should say. If you would like to appear in an episode, let us know, because I love to interview people. So let us know if you'd like to come onto the podcast, that would be amazing. That's about it from all of us here today. So I want to thank my lovely co hosts, the Skip the Queue alumni.
Paul Marden: I want to thank the rest of the Rubber Cheese team that came along as well. I want to thank you, Kelly, for everything that you've done for us and thank the lovely listeners. I look forward to seeing you all in the next episode of Skip the Queue.
Kelly Molson: Thank you so much. This is amazing. Thank you.
Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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What does it take to be a truly family friendly museum?
20 mar· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast
Competition ends on 29th March 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://skiptontownhall.co.uk/craven-museum/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenny-hill-54503a189/
Jenny Hill is Lead Museums Curator at North Yorkshire Council, including at Craven Museum in Skipton. She has a degree in History from Lancaster University and a Contemporary History MA from the University of Sussex. She has worked in the sector for almost 7 years and is passionate about community engagement and making museum collections accessible for all. Between 2018-21 she worked on a National Lottery Heritage Funded capital redevelopment project at Craven Museum. In 2023 her team won the Kids in Museums Best Family Friendly and Most Accessible Museum awards.
https://kidsinmuseums.org.uk/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/alison-bowyer-0608a417/
Alison Bowyer has worked in the cultural sector for over 20 years with previous roles at LAMDA, the National Youth Orchestra of Great Britain, Southbank Centre and the Academy of Ancient Music. The longer her career has continued, the more convinced she is that we still need to work harder to make culture and heritage accessible to all.
She has a longstanding interest in museums and how people engage with heritage, having been a volunteer at Handel House Museum (now Handel and Hendrix) in London and completing degrees in Cultural Memory and History. Alison has been Executive Director of Kids in Museums for seven years. During which time, the organisation has become an Arts Council England IPSO, won a Museum + Heritage Award, developed a new national training programme, established a Youth Panel and delivered a range of new programmes.
Outside of work, Alison is a listening volunteer for Samaritans, a Director of the Family Arts Campaign and likes to crochet.
Transcription:
Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.
On today’s episode I’m joined by my co-host, Paul Marden, CEO of Rubber Cheese.
We’re speaking with Alison Bowyer, Executive Director of Kids in Museums and Jenny Hill, Lead Museums Curator at Craven Museum.
It’s almost a Kids in Museums takeover as Paul is one of their amazing trustees.
Today we’re finding out what it takes to be a truly family friendly museum, why it’s important for you to engage with the Kids in Museums manifesto, and how you can enter the awards this year.
If you like what you hear, subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.
Kelly Molson: Hello, Alison, Jenny, and Paul, welcome. Welcome to Skip the Queue today. This is a treat. I am joined by Alison and Jenny today and we're going to talk about kids and museums. And I've also got Paul. Hello, Paul, who has joined me as co host today, and he is going to start the icebreakers. This is new.
Paul Marden: It is, isn't it?? It's a brave new world for us, isn't it? So I've got a lovely one for you, Alison. So should we get started? What are you most likely to buy when you exit through the museum gift shop?
Alison Bowyer: Oh, gosh, that's a really tough one. Definitely postcards. I'm also a sucker for a nice sort of pencil case or I do like museum jewellery. I have quite a lot of tattoo divine, especially museum themed jewellery. And I do also have a pushant for like, cute, fluffy things, even though I'm not a child. I'm 44 years old, but still.
Kelly Molson: I'm loving this. Hello. At museums, Alison is your best gift when she comes because she's filling up her bag.
Paul Marden: Think of all of those museum gift shops that you can go through with all the jewellery in because there are some amazing ones, aren't there, that have the jewellery stands in them.
Alison Bowyer: That completely are. And I like to buy all my gifts for other people from museums if I can. So I am a big museum shopper.
Kelly Molson: It's really lovely to do that. So just before Christmas, actually, I think it was. No, yeah, it was November time. I went over to the Ashmolean museum and their gift shop is really lovely, actually, and had a really good nosy around it in between meetings. And oh, my God, I bought so many of my Christmas gifts in there. It was brilliant. My best friends, I bought Edie a book called Bear at the Museum, which she adores. It's the most read book in our house at the moment, which is lovely, but I bought my mother in law jewellery. I bought her earrings from the Ashmolean, which were absolutely lovely. So I'd never really thought about jewellery from a museum as well. There you go.
Kelly Molson: Good tip for you from Alison today. Thank you. Right, Jenny, have you ever been pulled off by security for touching a museum exhibit?
Jenny Hill: I haven't personally, no. But I did visit Manchester Museums with a friend and she was told off whilst were in the gallery because it was a really pretty furniture display and she just kind of automatically reached out a hand because she was like, “Oh, it's so pretty”, and instantly clocked by the security guard in the room and we very sheepishly left quite quickly.
Kelly Molson: I love that. It's really hard, isn't it, if you're quite a tactile person as well, and you're like, “Oh”, because you would do that if you were in a shop, right?
Jenny Hill: Exactly, yes. And she was just really excited by it was kind of just like an instant response. We were like, “Oh, no, shouldn't have done that.”
Kelly Molson: I love that. One day you will get told off. I know this, and you need to come back on and share that with us. Okay? Right, I've got one for both of you now. So, Alison, I'm going to start with you. If you had to wear a t shirt with one word on it for the rest of your life, what word would you choose and why?
Alison Bowyer: Oh, gosh, one word makes it really difficult because it can't be like a command.
Kelly Molson: Well, it could stop.
Alison Bowyer: Yeah, that's true.
Kelly Molson: It is a command.
Alison Bowyer: Because I have one at the moment that I'm quite fond of that just says “Be kind on it.”
Kelly Molson: That's nice. All right, well, maybe I'll let you have two words.
Alison Bowyer: You can't just say kind because that sounds really weird. And od, if I'm allowed to, it would “Be kind.”
Kelly Molson: Okay, we'll allow to, for the purpose of this podcast, we'll allow to. That's nice. I like that one. Jenny, what about you?
Jenny Hill: “Be curious” as well. I think that's something that always happy for our visitors to do when they're visiting, is to be curious. And I think it's just a good motto for life, isn't it, to always be thinking, always be inquisitive. Yeah.
Kelly Molson: They're very good one, Paul, I'm going to ask you as well. Sorry, dropping you right in it. What about yours?
Paul Marden: Learn. It has got to be if it's got to be one word, because one's a toughie. Learn.
Kelly Molson: I like that. Somebody actually went with the brief. Thank you for obeying me.
Paul Marden: Always. I know my place.
Kelly Molson: Doesn't happen often. All right. Thank you, everyone, for sharing that. I appreciate it. Right, unpopular opinions. What have you prepared for us? Alison? Over to you first, I think.
Alison Bowyer: Oh, gosh, this question made me so stressed.
Kelly Molson: I'm so sorry.
Alison Bowyer: No, no, it's fine. Not in a bad way, because I was like, oh, my goodness, I'm not sure what I have that's unpopular. And then I started googling unpopular opinions and I found all these weird lists of things that I never even considered were opinions, like people saying that C is the most redundant letter in the English language and you could replace all C's with S's and K's. Apparently, this is a commonly held unpopular opinion. So, yeah, then I started thinking, oh, goodness, I'm not really sure I'm up to this. I think what I came up with in the end was, which is going to make me unpopular, probably. I think pizza is the worst takeaway because it always survives cold and hard and the topping off, it falls off in transit, so you end up with a really dowsy meal.
Kelly Molson: I love a pizza takeaway, though. I can't be down with you on this one because I love a pizza. It's because we never get to eat pizza. Oh, no. Actually, we've had pizza quite frequently recently because Edie loves it. But Lee has always been a bit like anti pizza takeaways. Okay.
Paul Marden: I don't understand people that have the delivery of burgers and chips, because surely that is going to be cold by the time it gets to you and they're going to be rubbish chips.
Kelly Molson: Yes. That's weird. Yeah, that is weird. I've never ordered a burger to be delivered to my house. That sounds strange to me. Ok, let's see what Twitter feels about your pizza. Unpopular opinion. Jenny, what about you?
Jenny Hill: Oh, mine's similar on a food topic, which I feel is going to make me really unpopular. But something I always say that really annoys people is I really hate brunch, which I feel is very unpopular. But I'm a person that gets regularly hungry, so for me, waiting to go out for food in the morning is just not possible. So I will always have to have something to eat before I leave the house. So I'll always basically have breakfast and then before you know it, I'm eating again. So at that point, it's essentially lunch. So for me, brunch doesn't really exist.
Kelly Molson: Okay. All right. Let me argue this point back to you, though. So if your girlfriends or whoever had asked you out for brunch, you'd have breakfast first, right? So you'd have like 08:00 breakfast and then you'd go for brunch. But if you're always hungry, doesn't that just mean you just eat lunch a little bit earlier? So brunch is like.
Jenny Hill: I mean, I don't mind eating again, but it's just the concept, I guess, of calling it brunch just doesn't feel accurate for me by that point because I've already had a full breakfast.
Kelly Molson: Okay. So I have a similar challenge with afternoon tea. I can't stand afternoon tea. Sorry if this upsets people. I don't understand why you get to a certain age and all of your every thing has to be, “Oh, should we go for afternoon tea?” No, why don't we just go to the pub like we used to? Go to the pub. Just go to the pub. What is it about afternoon tea? It's really annoying. And it's one of those. It's always at like 03:00 so what is it?
Jenny Hill: It's not a meal. It's the same situation, but in the middle of the afternoon. I agree.
Kelly Molson: Exactly. Okay, I can get on board with your brunch thing then. If you're on board with my afternoon tea thing. Good.
Paul Marden: I'll take you afternoon tea and I'll raise you a kids party at 2:30 in the afternoon. It's neither lunch nor is it dinner. So I have to feed the child before. I have to feed the child afterwards. And then they're going to eat more food in the middle of the day.
Kelly Molson: They are. They are. But I mean, Edie eats constantly so that it doesn't really matter. But kid's parties are amazing because buffet food is the best kind of food. I'm all down for a kid's party. You get what's it, what's not to love? You get party rings. There's always sausage rolls, which is like my number one top snack of all time. I'm here for the kid's parties. I'll just take the food. You can have all the kids. Okay. Should we talk about some serious stuff now?
Paul Marden: Yeah. Shall we do that?
Kelly Molson: I mean, it's still equally fun, but let's get on, shall we? We're talking about Kids in Museums today.
Paul Marden: Which is really good, isn't it?
Kelly Molson: It is a great topic.
Paul Marden: I feel like I'm going to learn loads about Kids in Museums that I probably should already know as I'm a trustee of Kids in Museums. But I get to ask Alison all the questions that perhaps I've been a little bit too scared to ask for the last year because I might look a little bit silly if I don't know the answer.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, and she has to answer you because that is what the podcast rules are.
Paul Marden: Exactly. All right then, Alison, why don't we kick off, tell us a little bit about Kids in Museums and how the organisation was developed.
Alison Bowyer: Kids in Museums has existed in one form or another for about 20 years now, which always astonishes me a little bit. So we started life when our founder, who at the time wrote to the Guardian, her name was Dea Birkett and she took her young child, I think she was about two years old, to the. I'm going to name and shame, I'm afraid, the Aztec’s exhibition at the Royal Academy. And her son screamed at one of the massive Aztec statues, which, if I remember the exhibition correctly, was totally fair enough, because the statues were pretty. I mean, they were designed to be scary. That's one of the reasons why they built some of them. So they were thrown out of the Royal Academy because apparently he was disturbing the other visitors.
Alison Bowyer: And then Dea wrote about this in her Guardian column, and what happened after that was the Guardian got a lot of letters coming from families telling Dee about similar experiences they'd had when they were out and about in museums with their children. And so a campaign was born to make museums better places for families, children and young people to visit. And to an extent, what happened on that day at the Royal Academy, that kind of remains our guiding principle. We are led by what visitors tell us about their experiences and we really strongly feel that museums, galleries, heritage sites, as kind of public space, should be for everyone, and everyone should be free to have that access, to feel comfortable when they're visiting and to have a really great time during your visit. So since then, the charity has evolved in various ways.
Alison Bowyer: Today, we work across the whole of the UK and we will work with any kind of museum, gallery, heritage site, historic house, castle, any kind of outdoor heritage site to support them and lead them and encourage them to take action, to better places for families, children, young people. We're quite a small organisation. There's only five of us in total, but we feel like we achieve a lot. And last year we won the Museum and Heritage Award for being the Best Sector Support Organisation in the UK, which was a really amazing validation of our work. That definitely doesn't mean we're sitting on our laurels, though. We're always trying to spend time talking to families, talking to young people, talking to museums about how we can create new programmes, refine our existing programs to do better.
Alison Bowyer: And we really want to be approachable, supportive, trusted experts. So we are doing the best by both the audiences we represent and the museums we try to support.
Paul Marden: I think the size of the organisation. I know Vanessa, our chair, often says how much you, as a team, punch above your weight, because I don't think anyone would imagine that it was such a small team that was having such a loud voice. Is that a positive thing? That should be a positive thing. How much impact you have with such a small team? It's amazing.
Kelly Molson: It was lovely at the MandH Show. I was at those awards, and I saw that win happen, and it was fantastic because the cheer from the crowd was pretty phenomenal. So congratulations on that.
Alison Bowyer: Thank you. I was so sure weren't going to win. I wasn't there, and I'd gone to bed and gone to sleep.
Kelly Molson: Woke up to some spectacular news.
Alison Bowyer: Yeah, no, it really did. But, yeah, no, it was brilliant to get that recognition. It helps more people find out about us as well, which is always valuable.
Paul Marden: So what is it that you offer museums, and how can they get involved more with what you're doing?
Alison Bowyer: So we like to think that we've got something for pretty much any kind of museum, whatever your level of expertise in working with families, children and young people is whatever resources you have, how many staff you have. So we have a large, free offer, which is kind of the building blocks of what we encourage museums to do, and it's all centring on our manifesto. So our manifesto is something that we compile with children, families and young people. So every two years, which actually is something we're going to be doing this year, we will be out talking to museum visitors, doing a national survey, and finding out about what their good and bad experiences of museums are. And then we will take all that information and distil it down into six easy points that make up our manifesto.
Alison Bowyer: And then that's a document that we think pretty much every museum should be able to commit to in their work. None of it is particularly complicated, or a lot of it doesn't need to be resource intensive. They're all pretty simple things that everybody should be able to do. So that's a really good starting point. And over a thousand museums have signed up to the manifesto and hopefully are using it in their work. I know we'll hear later from Jenny about how Craven Museum did that. Once you've signed the manifesto, there are lots of other things that you can get involved in.
Alison Bowyer: We've got over 100 free resources on our website, which cover everything from ways to implement the manifesto at low cost, how to create self guided resources for families, right up to things like how you can engage children and young people with the climate emergency in your museum. So they cover a really wide range of things that we think are helpful to the teams in museums who are doing that work on the ground. We have a programme of UK training, so we run about trend training sessions a year for museum staff and we also work with museum development organisations on training and that's available to attend in person for a small ticket price or to buy us recordings.
Alison Bowyer: Then every year we run a program called Takeover Day, which is a really brilliant, fun, exciting initiative where children and young people age between 0 and 25 go into museums and they do adults jobs for the day. When I say 0 to 25, I really mean that. We have toddlers doing museum Takeover Days, being given tasks like polishing glass museum cases with soft dusters, doing some cleaning and doing some object packing with, like, wooden blocks. They don't let them use loose on the actual collection.
Paul Marden: With white gloves on.
Kelly Molson: I'm laughing because Edie would be like up there licking the glass, not trying to clean it, thinking about my daughter. And Paul is smiling because he did one of these Takeover Days.
Alison Bowyer: He did. Yeah.
Kelly Molson: He's got a massive grin on his face.
Paul Marden: We loved it. We got to be curators for the day. The kids got to run around the museum and then they went back into the learning suite of the Mary Rose Trust and they got told to design an immersive exhibition and they took ideas from all around the museum and designed out what they would do and such brilliant ideas that they had. It was such a great experience for them to get that kind of behind the scenes experience of what the museum is actually like.
Alison Bowyer: So we see from Takeover Day that impact Paul has described. More than 70% of the young people who take part say that they would like to go back to a museum again as a result of being part of Takeover Day. And more than two thirds of the museums say that they now know more about what young people want from their museums and will make a change. So it's a really brilliant initiative. Then we obviously have the Family Friendly Museum Award, which is what we're going to be talking about with Jenny and I'll talk more about it later. And we've got some new programs coming online this year. So for the first time, we're working with a group of museums to help them appoint their first young trustees. So they're going to have people on their boards by the end of the programme age between 18 and 25.
Alison Bowyer: And we also are running some programs with our own youth panel that they've designed. So we are working with them on a project which will hopefully show that museums can help address social isolation that young people experience when they move for education or new jobs.
Kelly Molson: I think it's just take a pause there and just reiterate that there are five of you in the Kids in Museum’s team. That is a pretty phenomenal menu of things that you offer to museums with just five people.
Paul Marden: It's amazing, isn't it?
Kelly Molson: Yeah. Let's just keep that up there as we're talking today. Thanks, Alison. Jenny, I want to come over and chat to you about Kids in Museums. How did you first kind of find out about them and get involved with what they're doing?
Jenny Hill: So, I've been aware of Kids in Museums probably since I first started working in the sector around six, seven years ago now. I've been on their website, sort of seen their name come up and use some of their guidance when I was doing some of my initial sort of museum work. But I think they sort of really stood out to me. From about 2021, I got involved with some training with part of Museum Development Yorkshire, whose sector support as well, funded by Arts Council England, and they were running front of house cohort that I got involved with at the time. And we had a really great training session as part of that cohort with Laura Bedford from Kids inMuseums. She gave a really inspiring talk and session on creating family friendly interactions in museums, and that was really inspiring.
Jenny Hill: I learned a lot during that session and really made me think, oh, we definitely need to be involved with this more. And then later on in the same year, I actually did an in person event. It was at the auction museum, and actually got to have a chat with Laura there about Kids in Museum's work. So that was really helpful. So, yeah, we kind of taken it from there. We signed up to the kids and museum manifesto following on from that, started to use those sort of principles in a lot of our front of house work and then behind the scenes as well. So, yes, Kim, have been on my radar for quite a while.
Jenny Hill: But, yeah, it's sort of the past three years, really, that we've really sort of been taking on board a lot of their, using a lot of their resources and their ideas.
Kelly Molson: It's lovely to see that it was indirectly as well. So obviously, Kids in Museums and what they do, it's good that they work in partnership with other organizations as well. So there was like a crossover there. Why did you enter the Family Friendly Museum award last year?
Jenny Hill: So Craven Museum went through a National Lottery Funded redevelopment project between 2018 and 2021. So we completely redesigned our museum space. It used to be really inaccessible. It used to be at the top of Skipton town hall. There was no lifts up there. It was a really steep, horrible flight of stairs to get up there, and a lot of the interpretation was really outdated. A lot of it was not very accessible. So after our redevelopment project, which really put access at the centre of all of our work, and particularly looking at family audiences, this is a group that we really wanted to feel welcome to our museum. It's a group that we'd been working with a lot pre redevelopment and we really wanted to expand our work with this audience after we reopened.
Jenny Hill: So after all this work was completed, we spent 2022 in sort of that post Covid year, finding our feet when maybe our visitors weren't quite as confident coming onto site and people were still getting to know that were reopened as well. So we had got a lot of people coming in going, “Oh, I didn't realise the work had finished.”
Jenny Hill: That was sort of our sort of pilot year. Whereas last year in 2023, we really felt that we hit our stride and we've been piloting lots of new ideas in 2022 and embedding our family friendly ethos in our work. So it kind of was the year that work really felt like it came to fruition after having spent quite a few years developing it. So we thought, as a team, that we'd really like to sort of get this work hopefully recognised. And a family friendly museum award really felt like a way to do that and we really wanted it to sort of give a boost to our team as well, who'd been working hard on that. So, yeah, we just thought it would be a great year to get involved and we entered it with very low expectations.
Jenny Hill: We thought, we're a small museum in the north of England. We weren't sure if we'd be, I don't know, sort of recognised for what we've been doing. So it was absolutely amazing to get recognition through the award in that way. It's fantastic.
Kelly Molson: It feels like the recognition was for the team and for the people that were kind of working in it. Is that what was important to you about entering?
Jenny Hill: I think so, yes. It was to prove to the team that the work that they'd been doing was really valid and really important. And I think in the museum sector, sometimes there's quite a lot of pressure on quite small teams. Like Alison was saying, there's only five people in Kids in Museums, and we're a small team, too. So I think having that recognition for the team just really helps them to know that, yes, they're doing a good job alongside the fact that it's obviously important to us to sort of share with the families that do come and use the museum, that it's going well.
Kelly Molson: How difficult was it to write the entry? Because I think that there's often a barrier. I mean, certainly for us, there's been things that I've thought this would be great to enter, but I look at it and think, “Oh, my goodness, this is going to take me, like, four or five days to actually pull all of these things together and write it. And write it in a way that's appealing.” Did you find it was an easy process to go through?
Jenny Hill: Actually, yes, we did find it, because I've done some applications that, yes, like you say, it can be quite as difficult, quite time consuming. I actually found the process for Kim really easy. So when the applications opened, members of the public were asked to nominate their favourite museum through a form on the Kim website. And we're really excited that we got some lovely nominations from families. And then kids and museum got in touch to let us know that we could make full application because we'd been nominated. So after that point, there was an online form that we could fill out that asked questions like, how have you made visiting your museum accessible to families, children and young people with additional needs? So that was one of the sort of longer questions on the form because we applied for the best accessible museum.
Jenny Hill: And that was. Yeah, I think because of all the work that we've been doing and because that kind of ethos is embedded in our team, weren't talking maybe about a specific project that we'd been working on. As some applications, I feel like they're very sort of project focused, but having such a wide question like that meant that we could just talk about what we do every day at the museum, which is what's really important to us.
Jenny Hill: So, yeah, there were nice questions to answer because they kind of felt like they gave us the space to talk about all of our work. So that was brilliant. And we also had the opportunity to upload some supporting materials so we could get some photos in there, send through some of our more visual. Yeah, I think we might have sent a video as well. So that was great, too, because it meant we could share lots of different aspects of our work.
Kelly Molson: I love that. And spoiler alert even. You won. You're not only be the overall winner, you were the Best Accessible Museum winner as well.
Jenny Hill: Yes. And I was still absolutely blown away by that.
Kelly Molson: It's phenomenal. Congratulations.
Jenny Hill: Thank you.
Kelly Molson: Huge for that.
Paul Marden: I wonder if the reason why you found it not too painful to do the application is because this is folded into you. This is running through your core. You're just telling people what you do every day, and so you're just telling the story of what you do all the time.
Jenny Hill: I think that's how it feel. Yeah.
Paul Marden: Alison, let's talk about. I remember sitting in the audience listening to you talking about all the different museums and what the judges said and what stood out, and I loved hearing those stories. So what was it, do you think, that stood out about the Craven Museum, about their entry for you?
Alison Bowyer: So there were a few things about the Craven entry that really grabbed us. The first that I remember reading was that they had built our manifesto into their visitor charter, which is amazing because they are taking what we know, families, children, young people need and want, and they're building it into that work that they do every day. Like Jenny was saying, this is them living that way of working, which is incredible. And I think throughout the application, you got a real sense that all of their staff really cared about this. There was a page in the supporting document with the whole team on it saying just, like, one little thing about everyone in the team. And it was really amazing to see that because you felt that where in some museums, this is kind of just what the people in the learning team do.
Alison Bowyer: That wasn't true at Craven. Everyone at Craven really cared about the families he visited, and I think that was really borne out in the family nominations we received. There were so many families who were telling us how much they loved going to the museum that their children saw it as, like, the highlight of their half term holiday. And they talked for weeks in advance about wanting to go, and the make and take craft seemed to be a particular hit. There were lots of families telling us that their children couldn't wait to go back and do that again. And the families who nominated the museum also, they sounded really proud that their town had the museum, which was really lovely. And also, I think, something that came through, which is a kind of sad reflection of the way the world is at the moment.
Alison Bowyer: They really appreciated that all of that was available for free. When they're struggling to find things for their family to do that don't cost much, it felt like it was a really important thing to have that amazing resource in their town. And there were other little things, too. The museum is a safe space. The staff have amazing access training and training in inclusive language, and those things really help with kind of broadening out who can come into the museum and something that we spend quite a lot of time talking about. That isn't always something museums pick up on. And the Craven Museum website is just amazing, incredibly informative. I think it came in like the top five or something in the state.
Alison Bowyer: The museum access website report in the whole of the UK for its access information, which a museum of its size is absolutely incredible. We spent so much time telling people that families like to plan, they like to look at a website in advance and find out about all the facilities, and Craven had actually done that and it really makes a difference. So were really pleased to see that. And then I think the final thing was the community case and how they had a space in the museum where local people, local organisations, could show things that were important to them. So they were really giving the local community the opportunity to see themselves in the museum and feel a sense of kind of belonging and ownership.
Alison Bowyer: So I think all of those things came together and it was really clear that Craven Museum was going to be a really strong contender, which was why they shortlisted them. And then it was over to the families to judge them during the second stage of the award.
Paul Marden: I'd say the fact that you gather together these real families to kind of go and look at the museums that have applied and pass on their feedback to the judges, I think is hugely powerful. Are there any little snippets that the families came back that you liked because there were so many lovely little comments that the families had given to us throughout the awards?
Alison Bowyer: Yeah. So I think this quote is one that I think sort of sums it all up, really. The family judge said, “This is one of the most accessible, family friendly and welcoming museums I have ever visited across Britain. Although small compared to city museums, this has a lot to offer and is well laid out. It is very inclusive and their website is a particular strong point in terms of helping people to feel able and welcome to visit. People can visit the museum or attend an event knowing what to expect and what options are available. We especially love the fact that the spot, the mouse activity involved actual exhibits. Often this type of activity utilizes soft toys or pictures that have been placed around the site and end up being a distraction from the collection, meaning families don't get to actually experience the museum and look at the artifacts on display. But this activity in Craving Museum involved looking for things that were part of the carvings and objects. A great way for visitors to get more close to the collection. We all really enjoyed our visit.”
Kelly Molson: That's so nice.
Paul Marden: That's just brilliant feedback, isn't it?
Alison Bowyer: Yeah.
Kelly Molson: So nice.
Paul Marden: And who would have thought having a website that told you information about the museum that was accessible could actually be of value to people?
Alison Bowyer: I know. It's amazing, isn't it?
Paul Marden: I know. I wonder who could help you with that.
Kelly Molson: Yes, although, full credit, this is not one of our websites, but we definitely could help you with that. This is incredible. What lovely words. We've all got smiles on our faces for people that are listening to the audio of this and can't see us. Jenny, I'd really love to know. We go back to the reason that you entered and, you know, part of that is for the team, it's for the people that have worked really hard to make all of these amazing things happen. What has the impact been for your team since you won this award?
Jenny Hill: I think it's just been the real boost that it's given the whole team. Like Alison was saying, everyone on the team really cared about this, know every single member of our team, not just maybe our learning team or our forward facing team, everyone cared about it. And I think it's just really inspired us to carry on with our work. We're all very conscious of the fact that working with families, working with accessibility, is never a finished process. You've not achieved it. So it's kind of really just. Yeah, it's given us that extra push to think, oh, actually, we're doing well in this and we really want to continue. We don't want to sit on our laurels, we don't want to take this for granted. We want to keep working on this. So I think that was really great.
Jenny Hill: It was also particularly lovely just to know that it was real families who'd nominated us and that, like were just saying with the undercover judges, it was real families who came to visit us during that judging period and had these positive experiences. So that was just fantastic to know that it was visitors who wanted to sort of recognise the work we've been doing. So, yeah, I think that's been the main thing, really. It's just been amazing being recognised by the sector and our colleagues and given us all that kind of. That boost.
Kelly Molson: Yeah. Like a validation of all of the work that gone into it.
Jenny Hill: Definitely.
Kelly Molson: And what about the impact from kind of general public? Has it had an impact on the visitors that are coming and what they're saying about it and then also the sector itself, you said it's been a good thing to be recognised within the sector.
Jenny Hill: So it's definitely had a real impact with our visitors. So we've had some visitors coming to site who've said that they've specifically come because they heard about the Kids in Museum award, which has been amazing. Some people coming from a distance to visit family in the area and saying, “Oh, when I was looking for things to do, I saw that you'd won the award. So I thought while I was visiting I'd pop in.” So that's been incredible, that impact with visitors and our sort of more regular local visitors who've come in, we've got the award up on a shelf behind the front desk. Our front of house team are so proud to have it there behind them while they're working.
Jenny Hill: And we've had local visitors saying, “Oh, it's so amazing that our town's got a museum that's won this award and it's really lovely for local people that we've got this here.” So, yeah, that's been really nice for both bringing in new visitors and also for our local audience and then within the sector, it's just been so good for us, publicity wise, to sort of kind of get our name out there, really. So since the awards I've done, I was just counting up the other day, I've had seven different institutions in touch, asking for site visits to come and look at our work, have a chat with us about best practice. I've delivered another seven presentations either already or got them booked in for the rest of the year. And then obviously doing podcasts like this.
Jenny Hill: And then we did a blog post as well for Send in Museums with Sam Bowen. I think that's the pipeline, hopefully. So, yeah, it's really kind of boosted us and we even noticed on social media, new institutions following us that maybe weren't aware of us before, after the award, people taking interest. So that's been really nice as a small local museum to have that kind of more bigger awareness from the sector.
Kelly Molson: I love this so much. And this goes back to something that comes up time and time again on these podcast interviews is just how collaborative and how supportive the sector is and how much they want to work with each other. It's so lovely that you can now showcase the processes that you've been through and how you approach accessibility and be able to share that with others so that they can go on and do the same and make theirs better and better.
Kelly Molson: I think it's so important to be able to do that, and it makes me love this sector so much. It really does. What top tips Jenny, would you give to any museums that are out there thinking, “We really want to enter the awards this year.” What would you say were your best top tips for them?
Jenny Hill: This kind of links to something Paul was saying earlier, and it maybe sounds a bit cliched, but just be yourself. I think there's so much amazing work going on in the sector to do with making venues family friendly. And if you're passionate about what you do and you're working hard to make your venue inclusive, then that will shine through. So maybe sometimes not to overcomplicate it. So if you're doing the work and you really care, then that will make itself apparent. But I guess on a more practical level as well. Give yourself time with the application, don't try and rush it. We work very collaboratively at Craven Museum, so we really wanted the opportunity for all of our staff to be able to feed back into the application process and for lots of different people to read the draft, make comments, have their say.
Jenny Hill: So by giving ourselves enough time to do that, it really made the process a lot smoother. And also, have a look at the Kids in Museum manifesto. It's a great place to just, if you haven't signed up already, sign up and if you have, just refresh yourself on it, because it can really help that framework for how to answer questions and things.
Kelly Molson: Great tips. Thanks, Jenny.
Paul Marden: So with that in mind, should we talk about this year's family friendly awards. Nominations Open on 19th March, I think. Is that right, Alison?
Alison Bowyer: Yeah, that's right.
Paul Marden: So what is it that museums can do to enter?
Alison Bowyer: This year we have five categories, so there are three size categories, so best, small, medium and large museums, which will be organised by number of visits in the previous twelve months. That's all explained on our website. I won't go into that now. Then we have a category for the Best Successful Museum, which is the category that Craven won last year. And then our new category for this year is Best Youth Project, and that is a prize for museums who are doing long term, so work longer than six months with young people from the ages of 14 to 25. And what we're really looking for is work, that young people are given a sort of equal share in decision making, that they're really involved in shaping work.
Alison Bowyer: And the guidelines for that category, along with all of the others, are in the guidance notes, which you can download from our website. So that would be the first thing to do. Sounds very obvious, read the guidance notes carefully because that should explain most of what you need to know about how to enter. So then there are two routes to entry, really. So what Jenny described, what happened to Craven, that's what happens to most museums. Families will nominate them. So for a family to nominate, they can just go on our website. It's really simple. They just have to tell us the name with the museum they're nominating and in a few sentences why they're nominating them. That's it. And then we will contact the museum and tell them they've been nominated and ask them to fill in the museum side of the application process.
Alison Bowyer: We've got lots of tools to help museums promote nominations to families. So we've got social media assets for all channels and we've got some paper forms you can print out and put in your museum if you want to. Then the other alternative is if you want to enter but you for some reason don't have the time or the capacity to collect lots of family nominations, you can just enter as a museum on our website. That's totally fine. You just go on our website and you look at the museum application form. It's not essential to have a family nomination for the small museum and large category, but for the Best Successful Museum, we do ask that at least one family has supported your museum's nomination. Just because we feel for that category, it's super important that the museums are sort of supported by families for the provision that they offer in terms of accessibility.
Alison Bowyer: What happens then is once we've got all the nominations together, we put together a shortlist. So the shortlisting panel is made up of. We normally have primary schools, young people from our youth panel, our staff and trustees, and sometimes representatives from museums who've won in the past. We all come together, we pick a shortlist and then we announce that in June. And then if you've been shortlisted over the summer, we will send out families like mystery shopper judges to your museum. So you won't know they're coming, they will just go on a visit and they will report back to us afterwards. And as Jenny says, it's their scores that choose the winners.
Alison Bowyer: We don't intervene in any way. We go with whatever the families tell us, so they really are in control. And I think that's one of the lovely things about this award. It is genuinely an award that is given by people who visit museums and then we will announce all the results in October at our award ceremony.
Paul Marden: We've talked a little bit about the mystery shoppers, the family judges, the undercover judges going in and actually looking at the museums. And that's how I first found out about Kids in Museums because I saw a sign when I was in the London Transport Museum suggesting that people could go on to nominate and also apply to be an undercover judge, which was how I found out about you first. This is a few years ago now. What can families do, though, if they want to be an undercover judge? Can they get involved?
Kelly Molson: Oh, yeah.
Alison Bowyer: Absolutely. So the best thing to do is to sign up on our website to our family mailing list. And then when we recruit the judges, which will be from June onwards, we will get in touch with you and let you know whereabouts in the UK. We need judges. It changes every year because we need the judges to be the museums on the shortlist. So it's a bit of a chicken and egg thing that we can't really start until we know where those museums are. But, yeah, the best thing to do is to sign up for our family mailing list.
Paul Marden: Yeah. It's such a great opportunity, isn't it, for people to go and have a mission, for the kids to go in and have a mission to go and check these places out and be the ones that decide who gets the award. What a great opportunity for a family to go and find that out.
Kelly Molson: Yeah. Don't tell them until they get home, though, because they'll just be shouting that out in the museum.
Paul Marden: Do you know who I am?
Alison Bowyer: We get lots of families tell us that their kids really enjoy it because they tell them they're, like, having to play detective or something and not be seen. And apparently it makes the day out really fun. So, yeah, it comes recommended.
Paul Marden: So there's a call to action for all the families that might be listening to us to join the mailing list and get in there early to become an undercover judge.
Alison Bowyer: Yeah. And I should say that we will cover travel expenses for the family judges, up to 30 pounds a visit. So we try to make it as accessible as possible to be a judge.
Paul Marden: Completely brilliant opportunity.
Kelly Molson: Thank you both for coming on and sharing this with us today. It's been so lovely to hear about it. We are going to put all of the details on how you can enter and how you can sign up to be a family judge as well on the show notes, but essentially go to Kids in Museum's website because they have everything that you need on there. We always ask our guests to leave us with a book recommendation. Something they love or know can be anything, a personal recommendation, a business book. Whatever you like. Jenny, what have you prepared for us today?
Jenny Hill: Well, it's probably not one that people haven't heard of before, but I'm a massive Jane Austen fan, so I would always recommend Emma. Emma is probably my favourite by. Yeah, it's one of those ones that I always go back to. So, yeah, if you're thinking about you've never read Jane Austen before, you want to read some classics? I would always recommend that. Yeah, it's a lovely book.
Kelly Molson: Oh, it's nice. We get so many people come on and recommend their favourite. Mean something magic about rereading the book over and over again is that you always find out something different every time you read it, regardless of how many times you've read it before. Thank you. Alison, what about you?
Alison Bowyer: Gosh, I found it so hard to pick a favourite book. People who aren't watching won't be able to see the bookcase behind me.
Kelly Molson: Very full.
Paul Marden: Alison looks like a reader for the people that are listening.
Alison Bowyer: It's not probably necessarily my favourite book, but a book that I really love by an author who I think deserves to best known in the UK is Standard Deviation by Katherine Heiney. She is absolutely hilarious and it's just a really beautiful portrait of a family living in New York who are all slightly eccentric and unusual in different ways. And I guess I'm really curious and lazy about people's lives. So I love books that kind of open the window onto different kinds of families. And yeah, she's just a wonderful author. All her books are wonderful, but that's my absolute favourite.
Kelly Molson: Good recommendation. Thank you. And both of those books have never been recommended before as well, so they will go top of the list on our blog post that we have where we save off all of our guests recommendations. As ever, if you want to win these books, if you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words I want Alison and Jenny's books, then you'll be in with a chance of winning a copy yourselves. Once again, thank you both for coming on. It's been so lovely to hear about the awards and the impact of winning the awards. Congratulations again on all of your hard work. It's just been wonderful to talk to you. So thank you.
Jenny Hill: Thank you very much. It's been lovely speaking to you today.
Alison Bowyer: Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure to share the award and some of the other work we do.
Paul Marden: And it's got us smiling all the way through, hasn't it, Kelly? It's been a lovely story to tell.
Kelly Molson: I hope people can hear that in our voices, that we're smiling. They can hear that we're smiling if they don't watch them, nobody watches our videos. Hey, go and watch our videos.
Paul Marden: There you go. See us grinning all the way through smiling.
Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Questions from the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report, with Kelly and Paul from Rubber Cheese
6 mar· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

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https://carbonsix.digital/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/
Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn’t know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile.
https://www.rubbercheese.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellymolson/
Kelly Molson is the Founder of Rubber Cheese, a user focused web design and development agency for the attraction sector. Digital partners to Eureka! The National Children’s Museum, Pensthorpe, National Parks UK, Holkham, Visit Cambridge and The National Marine Aquarium.Kelly regularly delivers workshops and presentations on sector focused topics at national conferences and attraction sector organisations including ASVA, ALVA, The Ticketing Professionals Conference and the Museum + Heritage Show.
As host of the popular Skip the Queue Podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions, she speaks with inspiring industry experts who share their knowledge of what really makes an attraction successful.Recent trustee of The Museum of the Broads.
Transcription:

Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson. In this new monthly slot, Rubber Cheese CEO Paul Marden joins me to discuss different digital related topics. In this episode, we're answering your questions from the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report, asking what more you'd like to see in this year's survey and sharing more on how you can get involved next time. If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.
Kelly Molson: Hello.
Paul Marden: Well, hello.
Kelly Molson: This is nice. So the two of us haven't been together for a podcast episode for a while.
Paul Marden: It does feel like, well, happy new year to start with.
Kelly Molson: Way too late for that malarkey. We've just been busy, haven't we've got lots of exciting projects that are coming to. Well, I don't like to say the end, but they're coming to point of launch.
Paul Marden: The launch, yeah. The exciting bit.
Kelly Molson: The very exciting bit. So we've all been pulled here, there and everywhere. So I've had lovely guests to speak to and you've had a little bit of a break from this. But we're back. We're back.
Paul Marden: Absolutely.
Kelly Molson: And we're going to start like we always do with these ones. With what attraction have you visited most recently and what did you love about it?
Paul Marden: I have been to Mary Rose Museum and I went with a bunch of nine and ten year olds. We basically went down there for the Kids in Museums Takeover Day. It's one of the kind of showpiece Kids in Museums events that they run every year all around, putting the ownership of the museum into the hands of kids. I managed to wangle my way to Mary Rose, which is relatively close to me. And I took my daughter's class, who I run a coding club for. So interestingly, theme around our coding club this year is all around the arts and how you put art into StEm and make it steam just like an amazingly.
Kelly Molson: I can't believe how well that's worked out.
Paul Marden: It gets better. The very first session of our club was all about what is the job of a museum curator. And so we took that theme and went and took over the Mary Rose and became curators for a day. So the kids got to go around the museum and have fun and see all the cool stuff that's going on there. They did the 3D Dive, the Mary Rose experience, and it was amazing watching a bunch of nine and ten year olds reaching out and popping these bubbles that were on the 3D screen in front of them. And then they went off and they designed their own interactive display around whatever was the thing that excited them about the museum.
Paul Marden: So there was lots of dog themed ones because there's a dog that is the kind of subject of a lot of the kids stuff focused around Mary Rose. But there was all different sorts of interactive displays, augmented reality within the glass lift that looks onto the Mary Rose and how you could gamify it. The kids just had a whale of a time and I just strolled around the museum and watched them having fun and say, that wasn't a tough day at all.
Kelly Molson: I'm actually really jealous as well because were due to go and then you got the opportunity to go because of that thing happening and I still haven't been.
Paul Marden: I know. And it's an amazing place. We had so much fun. They welcomed us. We had all the education department looking after us and making us feel special. It was just such a brilliant day. Apart from trying to park a minibus with 15 kids somewhere near the Mary Rose, which scared me whitlets.
Kelly Molson: Oh, you actually drove a bus?
Paul Marden: I did not drive the bus, no, I was a navigator. I had to find the parking spot. It's a level of responsive.
Kelly Molson: You were bus driver dad as well that day.
Paul Marden: There's a character in Peppa Pig, isn't there? I can't remember who she is, but she works in the supermarket. She drives the minibus.
Kelly Molson: This rabbit is the hardest working rabbit you'll ever meet in your whole.
Paul Marden: Exactly.
Kelly Molson: No, I'm going to put her on par. Sorry, I'm actually going to put her on par with Mrs. Rabbit, who has got hundreds of kids who doesn't work, but she has to look after those. So she is probably the hardest working rabbit that you'll ever find. So there you go. Digress into Peppa Pig. You can see where my world is right now, can't you? That just gave you an insight into where I'm spending my time.
Paul Marden: So tell me about where have you been recently?
Kelly Molson: I have been recently to the Museum of the Broads. I don’t ever really spoken about this on the podcast that much. But I am a trustee of the Museum of the Broads and it is a lovely museum. It does not get as much love and attention as it should. So I felt that today was a good opportunity to highlight it. It's wonderful. It's on the broads, obviously, it's in Stallham. And it is such incredible value for money because you can buy a ticket to the museum and a boat trip. And the boat trips are phenomenal. Last year these were really popular, so they introduced some afternoon evening boat trips where you could go and spot kingfishers because that stretch of the broads is absolutely like prime Kingfisher viewing area.
Kelly Molson: I have only ever seen one Kingfisher out in real life, and they're so quick, like it was a flash of blue and I didn't have my glasses on it. She wasn't going to see anything in great detail. That is incredible. On one of the trips last year, on the boat trip, they saw ten kingfishers. It might have been the same kingfisher, just like, who knows? I'm going to say ten. I'm going to take the ten. But the museum itself is wonderful. Some of the artefacts they have there are just really fun and really engaging. And obviously they've got lots of information about the boats and the broads themselves and what the broads were traditionally used for and how they've developed over the years. It's a lovely little museum. It's volunteer led. They have, I think, two or three members of paid team there.
Kelly Molson: So much work goes into the management and the development of those museums when it's volunteer led as well. So it's lovely. It is really lovely.
Paul Marden: We both started doing trusteeship type stuff at the same time. So I started at Kids in Museums because I wanted to see a broad view of things. You started at Museum of the Broads because you wanted to see the inside running of the museum itself. What has the experience been like for you?
Kelly Molson: It’s so different. It's such a different environment to what I'm used to. So, I mean, it won't surprise you to know that museums are not quite as dynamic as an agency, or they're just not as fast paced as an agency. So I think the speed at which some things happen is I find it a bit of a challenge, if I'm honest, because we're used to kind of going, should we try this? Okay, let's talk it. Okay, great. Let's not someone run with it. And it's sort of just, I don't know, there's a speed at which stuff happens in an agency that it's incomparable to any other organisation. So it's nice in some ways that kind of take a bit of time to kind of think things through. I've really enjoyed understanding about all of the different facets that are required within an agency, within a museum. Sorry.
Kelly Molson: And the things that you have to understand about. Even when we had an office, there's a level of HR and a level of safety management that you have to do, but it's a whole other level when it's a museum and you've got members of the public coming along. So that's been really interesting to understand and learn about. I've really enjoyed kind of looking at how they're developing certain areas of the museum as well. So when there's a new exhibition that's on. So last year, the Pippa Miller exhibition launched. Pippa Miller was a really famous artist that was connected to the broads, and the museum was entrusted with some of her artwork when she passed, and it's the only place you can come and see it. It's a wonderful exhibition.
Kelly Molson: So understanding about how those exhibitions are developed and put on and watching those happen as well. And there's another one this year that will happen, which is an exhibition on peat, which I know that probably doesn't sound that interesting, but it really is my mate Pete. No, not your mate Pete. No, actual Peat. Peat soil Pete. So, yeah, that's been really nice to see and kind of understand how those things progress and are developed and the ideas that go into them. It's fascinating.
Paul Marden: Cannot imagine the effort that goes into curating a whole exhibition like that.
Kelly Molson: It's vast. And I will give a huge shout out to Nicola, the curator at the Museum of the Broads, because she works tirelessly there to just bring these stories to life. That's essentially what they do. They bring the stories of the broads to life. This is a little plea from me, actually. A little shout out to everyone that's listening. If everybody listening to this podcast, I mean, we get hundreds of people listen to these episodes. If everyone went and bought a ticket from the Museum of Broada that's listening to this episode today, it would make such a massive difference to that little museum. So if you are thinking about booking a little staycation this year, head to Norfolk, get a ticket to the Museum of the Broads, go and check out the broads themselves.
Kelly Molson: It is just a wonderful experience to go and see that museum and take a boat trip down the broads.
Paul Marden: There's a very nice place nearby to stay as well, isn't?
Kelly Molson: Yeah, I mean, a certain podcast host does have a lovely little place in Norfolk that you could rent out, which is literally 25 minutes from this museum as well. Just heads up.
Paul Marden: Incidental.
Kelly Molson: If you want to give me a shout, I can put you in the direction of 28 Millgate. Or you could just search that on Google. No, honestly, genuinely, if you are thinking about having a staycation and you're heading that way, put it top of your list because it's a lovely afternoon out. Thank you. Thanks for listening to my podcast.
Paul Marden: So what are we actually talking about today then?
Kelly Molson: In this episode, we are going to be answering some of the questions that we've received from the 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report. So, as you can imagine, we launch the report, we do the survey. All you lovely people fill in our survey for us and we launch the report, which gives you an analysis of what that survey data has meant. And it's a huge undertaking. It really is a huge undertaking. And I don't say that lightly. It's massive. It takes over our whole lives. And there is so much data in the report that we send out, but there's always questions, there's always more, and there's always more that we can do as well. And I think it just is an awful lot of work. Right.
Kelly Molson: So what happens is we launch it goes out, people digest it, and then they send us emails and they say, “This is really great. Thank you for this bit. Is there any insight into this thing?” And there's quite a lot of those emails that come in and most of them we probably can answer. It just, again, takes a bit of work to go back and look at the data and crunch the data and see if there is any answers to those questions. So we have had some of these questions in and we thought, well, let's do it as a podcast. And then everybody can hear the answers to these questions because it might be something that other people are thinking about as well.
Kelly Molson: So we're going to talk through some of the ones that have been sent in, and then we are going to give you a bit of a heads up about what's happening with this year's report and survey and talk a little bit about that. Sound good?
Paul Marden: Does sound good. I need to get my geek hat on my numbers. Geek hat.
Kelly Molson: It's time for Paul to nerd out. I will be asking the questions. Paul will be nerding out on the answers. Right. Okay. One of the questions we had in was how many respondents were return respondents from 2022 to 2023?
Paul Marden: Yeah. This was a question that somebody asked in relation to. They saw some changes, I think it was in terms of ticketing systems that were being used and they wanted to know, “Oh, if there's been a change in the ticketing systems that were used, could that because we've got different group of people, or is it the same people changing systems?” So, yeah, I dug into that. It was actually relatively hard to figure this out because what people type in as the name of their attraction is not always exactly the same. It's sometimes different people, sometimes they'll write the same name in a slightly different way. So actually, comparing apples with apples turned out to be quite challenging and I had to change some of the data to normalise it between the two groups.
Paul Marden: I could see they were the same attraction, although their names were subtly different. What I worked out was two different views of the same thing. But essentially, in the 2023 data set, 20% of the respondents were return respondents from the previous year. But of course, the 2023 data set was much bigger than the 2022 data set. So if you look at it from the other direction, how many people that filled in a survey in 22? Filled in a survey in 23? It's 50% of the 2022 respondents replied in 2023. So we had a good return rate? Yeah, for sure. But there was 50% of people didn't reply. So that made me think, there's a job of work to do this year.
Kelly Molson: Where did you go 50% of you. Cheeky little monkeys.
Paul Marden: And they vary. Some of them are smaller institutions, some of them are much bigger institutions. There's the reasonable amount of movement of people in the sector, isn't there? So you can easily imagine. Actually, there was an interesting one there, isn't it? What if I were to match the names of the respondents? Did we actually get a reasonable number of returners, but they were in a different job with a different institution?
Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's really a good point, actually, because I do know that people, I know people personally, that I know that they've moved on and gone to different places, and actually, some moved out of the sector and moved into completely different roles altogether.
Paul Marden: There is a decent cohort of people that returned and responded in 23, but the 23 data set was much bigger. So when you do see swings between 22 and 23, some of that is just a sample size thing with the best will in the world. We talk to lots of people and lots of people respond with data to us, but we have not captured the whole entire set of all attractions in the UK, and so we will get sampling errors out. If one year we sample a different group of people than we did the previous year, the comparisons can be a little bit harder.
Paul Marden: If we could just get more people responding and we had more data, then you'll get that the role of chance and the role of sampling errors will have less impact on the data and you'll be able to compare more year on year outcomes.
Kelly Molson: Yeah. Okay, well, there's your call out to get involved this year we'll let you know how.
Paul Marden: There's going to be lots of those.
Kelly Molson: Okay, second question. Can we break down the responses in the other type category? This is an interesting one, isn't it? Because we detailed out as many different visitor attraction types as we possibly could think of or find on internet and gave everybody the opportunity to be able to select what they specifically were, but we still had a huge amount of people put other. What's the reasoning behind that?
Paul Marden: Can I give you facts and then tell you what I think the reasoning is? Yeah. So there's some things that I know. Okay. 37% of all respondents mark themselves as the other. It skews when you drill into that 37%. It's a big group of people. It was like the second or third largest group of people in the report itself. They tended to be attractions that had lower visitor numbers. So they were under 100,000 visitor numbers in that other group. So it was about 45% of people were under 100. About 37% were between 100 and a million visitors. Those are the things we know. Then I started having a play with the data.
Paul Marden: So what if I were to group those people that were in other because they had the opportunity to type some stuff in for free text box, and could I make a grouping out of that? One thing that I did notice, and this is observation as opposed to fact. Okay. So I could see many of the places that chose other because we didn't allow them to choose multiple types and they were an attraction that had multiple things. So one of them was one of our clients. And they have a historic house. They have a guest house, they have a beach, they have outdoors activities. They've got.
Kelly Molson: So how do you categorise yourself based on all of those? Actually, with that client, I probably would have said historic house because that was what I would have put my hat on for that one.
Paul Marden: But then I met somebody yesterday. Not too dissimilar. Yeah. Primarily a historic house, but it's a historic house that has a hotel, bar, golf on the site. And if you ask them, it would totally depend on who you spoke to as to what they primarily were. There were people that ran the historic house who would have you believe that they were primarily a historic house, but there were other people that would say, “Well, actually the revenue is generated elsewhere in the organisation and primarily we are a hotel and golf destination and alongside we have a historic house.” So I think there was a nuance in the way that we asked the question, please choose what type of attraction you are. And the only option for the people that had lots of these things was to say other.
Paul Marden: And actually, I think going forwards we probably need to say, what are you primarily, and do you have other things and give people the option to choose multiples?
Kelly Molson: Yeah, I was going to say, because even if you put multi, it causes the same challenge, doesn't it? Without being.
Paul Marden: But when I had to play around with that group and I tried to assign them to things partly based on what they replied on their questionnaires and partly by looking at their websites and having a guess, a lot of them had some element of outdoor activity. A lot of them had food and drink. There was a large group that weren't multi activity. I don't know what a better way to describe those historic houses with other things going on, but there was a decent size of people or decent sized number of attractions that were tv themed and they were primarily a behind the scenes tour or something themed around a tele program. And we didn't have that. There was nothing like that in any of our categorisations.
Paul Marden: So again, it just comes down to refining the questionnaire every year to try to improve what we've got. Give people the option to choose multiples and include some other groups. But avoid getting to a point when you look at all the categories we gave, because you mentioned, we gave lots of categories, there was a very long tail. There was a large number of the actual categories where it had one or two attractions within that grouping. And then it's like, is that a meaningful way of slicing and dicing the data? So we have to be really careful not to throw too many categories at it, but at the same time give people some choices.
Kelly Molson: Yeah. You also have to feel that the people have to feel that they are included within this as well. So if those one or two people came along and they couldn't choose what they were, would they feel excluded from it?
Paul Marden: Yeah. Would they drop out? Because this clearly isn't for me.
Kelly Molson: Exactly. I'm all for having more choice in that. It's a tick box. That's fine. There's other stuff that we can take out, don't worry.
Paul Marden: And that's because you're not looking at the data. Add more numbers.
Kelly Molson: I'm all for cutting stuff out if it makes life easier for people and more people will be able to fill it in and that. But I think that one particular thing is not one that we need to cut back on.
Paul Marden: No, I agree with you. Totally agree.
Kelly Molson: Were all attractions who responded to the survey paid for, or how do those ecommerce results break down between those that have an entry fee and those that are free? This was a good question.
Paul Marden: Yeah, it really was. In many of the questions that we've got, some people chose not to answer us. Within this group, there's a group of people in the whole set of data that chose not to answer this, either because they didn't know or they felt they didn't want to answer the question. But if we take everybody that reported an entry fee, 15% of those people were free of charge. So they ticked the box that said they had no entry fee. That's already a fairly small group amongst the whole data set. So we're asking questions here that zero in on a smaller and smaller group. This sounds like I'm giving excuses before I give you my homework. Yeah. But as the groups get smaller, then the role of chance and sample error means that the data becomes less and less reliable.
Paul Marden: And I got to be honest, within that 15%, there was a large number of people that didn't tell us a conversion rate. So you're down into a very small number of people now. 85% of the free to enter attractions didn't tell us what their conversion rate was or said they didn't know or couldn't measure it.
Kelly Molson: So that's interesting in itself, because this is some of the things that we've been talking about in terms of the conversion rate and how we measure that effectively, because some of those free museums obviously will have probably smaller teams, less budget, less ability, maybe just less understanding of what we're asking in the first place. My assumption is that they will use off the shelf ticketing platforms that they might not be able to get the conversion rate from. So you've got that limitation in the data that they can actually then supply us because they genuinely just don't have it, they don't know it.
Paul Marden: Or because they're free. They don't think about the concept of conversion. But in that instance, how much does it matter the number of people that come to your website and then the number of people that actually buy? If there is no ticketing, if you're free to enter and you don't even need a ticket to pre book to enter, does it even matter? And I would argue absolutely, it definitely does. Because instinctively, I would believe that there is definitely a relationship between the number of people that visit your website and the number of people that visit your attraction. And if you can improve the ratio between those two, you'll get more bookfalls through the attraction.
Paul Marden: And even if you're free to enter a considerable portion of the money that you make out of the attraction is going to be from donations, from people walking through the door. It will be food and beverage sales, it will be gift shops, it will be memberships that they join to get other things. All of those things need bums on seats, don't they? If you don't get bums on seats, you don't generate that revenue. But it can be hard, I think, to join the dots between that big number of people that visit your website, hopefully, and the number of people that are actually walking through the door and creating a correlation between, or creating a relationship between the two.
Kelly Molson: It's when there's no purchase made from that thing to that thing, there's almost nothing to tie them together.
Paul Marden: Yeah, but it makes it harder to think about which, when you're a small attraction in those sorts of circumstances, if it's harder to think about, then it's not going to be a priority for you. But I would argue it would be a super important thing to do because you tweak those. We're all about tweaking the dials, aren't we? We're all about trying to increase.
Kelly Molson: Marginal gains.
Paul Marden: Exactly. And in that instance, it can be hard to see the point. But I definitely believe there really is a point to it. If I go one more thing, I would say, and this is where the data.
Paul Marden: I don't think the data is reliable, but were into this small group of people that we had, 15% of people say that they were free, and in that group we had a small number of people tell us what their conversion rate was, and it varied. There were some attractions that had a 1% conversion rate. There were some attractions that chose the 5% conversion rate, which was the higher end of the bracket, which was the average over the whole group. I bet you there's more data that would help us to understand what the difference between the 1% and the 5% was. Is it chance or is there something materially different between those two types of institution? I don't know, but there's a debate there.
Paul Marden: And is it valuable for us to investigate that there's only so much time to be able to put to these things?
Kelly Molson: Well, I think this is why it's important. Well, this is why we value people asking the questions about the report. This is why we encourage people to give us feedback and to send us these questions in, because it all adds to the conversation and it all helps us make this better and better every year because we can understand what you send us a question and then that gives us an understanding of what's really important for you right now. So we can start to incorporate some of the ways to get the answer to that question into the survey and the report for this year.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Kelly Molson: So send us more questions. As a midway to this podcast, definitely send us some more questions. You can send them to me, [email protected], or you can send them to [email protected] but whatever you do, just send them in. And then we can again start to look at how we incorporate some of those questions into this year's.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Kelly Molson: Okay, next question. It's around ticketing platforms. One question came in and they noted the apparent percentage drop in use of access gamma in the past year. So what we saw was Digitickets and Merack both seemed to kind of hold their share, and they're UK based. With over 70% of the 188 respondents UK based and about a quarter of European. We found it a little odd that there was such a drop here in such a short space of time and wondered if you had any further insight. Interesting one, isn't it, because we all noted that access had dropped off a little bit.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to caveat this again. I can go into more depth and understand the differences between the two, but I would caveat it that if we had more responsive, we could be more confident in the reliability of the difference across years. But we've gone from a large, but a sample in 22, a bigger sample in 23. The 23 sample included some of the 22 people. But really, I think what the question I was getting at is how many of those people actually switch ticketing platforms between that group? And I think that is unlikely to be the reason why we saw these changes. Yeah, of course people change ticketing platform, but it's the beating heart of the business. They don't change it on a whim and they don't change them dramatically very quickly. Yeah.
Paul Marden: By the way, there's no evidence to this in that respect. There could be changes, but my instinct is it's unlikely to be a wild change on the basis of the number of people because it's just not that easy to.
Kelly Molson: No. And we speak to agencies, our own clients have been through these processes, and we know how long they take and we know how embedded those systems are within an organisation and how difficult it actually is to switch from one to another and the time frame that it takes. So I would agree with you.
Paul Marden: On the basis of that. I think the differences are more easily explained by we got more different people included. And we're seeing more of what the sector buys. Now, whether, when we get into 24, whether we see another swing again. Well, that's entirely plausible, because the sample sizes, they're not big enough to be statistically valid. They give an indication, but they will suffer from chance in some areas. And it could just be the group of people that we've got, we know within the year demonstrates the usage of the ticketing platforms within the group of people that responded within that year, but unlikely to be comparable across the years. Only 20% of this year's data were responses that had been given in 22 as well.
Paul Marden: So we've only got a small group. Within that group the data has changed dramatically in that year, mainly with people telling us they chose an other not listed system. So it was not one of the big ones that were familiar with, and no one reported anything in that group last year. So this is where you know as well as I do, we get people asking us for copies of their data that they've submitted, because there's a big period of timing between when they submit stuff and the report being published, and then they want to see what they did, what they gave to us, don't they? So people remembering what they wrote last year and putting it in again this year, it's no wonder we see differences between the two year groups. Apart from other not listed, which was by far like a country mile than largest number of responses.
Paul Marden: The biggest absolute change in the number of responses within the repeating group was digitickets. Digitickets had more people within that returning group saying that they were using their ticketing platform.
Kelly Molson: And I can't remember this off the top of my head, but where people are selecting other not listed, are we giving them the opportunity to write who they are using? So did we give them an open.
Paul Marden: Such an unfair question? I can't remember the answer.
Kelly Molson: I genuinely can't remember. But if we didn't, well, then we need to, because that space, I mean, there's a lot of ticketing platforms already, but there are new ones popping up all over and there are ones that are specifically focused on accessibility for an example. There are ones that are relatively similar in terms of what they're doing to everyone else, just packaged up in a different way. So it would just be interesting to see some of the names that people were putting forward and where people are swinging to.
Kelly Molson: We know that there's Tessitura, for example, and Spektrix that are used quite predominantly in theatre world now. People have always talked really positively about those two platforms and it would be interesting to see if they are looking to make that transition over into the attractions world.And maybe some of these people are starting to kind of move over to those. Who knows?
Paul Marden: There's a few systems lots of people know about because they're not just pure ticketing, are they? They're ticketing. So they manage the ticket inventory, they do online sales, they do walk ups, they do EPOS, they manage a shop, they manage a catering, they do everything to operate the entire attraction. And then there were other systems that focus purely on ecommerce and the sale of the tickets themselves online. There are other people that focus purely on the EPOS offering. And actually, there's a lot of complexity within these systems that go to running the attraction itself. And maybe again, we need to give people more choice about what they choose and give them the opportunity to choose multiple things. Because we might say, do you use gamma or do you use Merac or do you use Digitickets?
Paul Marden: And there may well be people that use digitickets for their e commerce sales, and they might use Merac for their membership, or they're running the epochs in the shops and their food and beverage. I don't think we give people the opportunity to have the nuance of selecting multiple things that they use.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, for like, I literally just had a conversation with someone who uses Digitickets for their ticket in, but Merac for their K-Three, for their till. So, yeah, I totally see where we need to do that. Okay, good. Two more questions. Is there future scope to develop comparisons against other science centres?
Paul Marden: Yes is the short answer, and yes, we have done that. It's quite interesting because you and I both have been talking about this year's survey at different places and the science centres one is a good example. It’s good because I was the one talking. Well, it's good because I was the one, but. So I went to the Association of Science and Discovery Centres conference in Belfast. I talked about that one of the pods just recently, and I had a table talk where I was talking about essentially observations that I found about the data about science centres. But you've done talks in numerous different locations.
Kelly Molson: All over the place. I was all over the place last year. Here, there and everywhere.
Paul Marden: Slicing and dicing the data to talk to the group of people that you were talking to. So you were in Ireland and you talked about comparisons of the attractions that we've got in both the Republic and Northern Ireland. And then you talked to know that's a different slice of larger attractions. And in both cases, were slicing and dicing the data and trying to find what made that group of people special or what were the observations that we had, weren't they?
Kelly Molson: That was one of the nice things about the report this year, because the data set was so much larger, we could make the things that were talking about so much more specific for people. So the ALVA talk was really great, actually. So I was very kindly invited along to speak at one of the ALVA council meetings. And it was at Bletchley Park, oh my goodness. In their new auditorium that were the first group to speak in there. It was wonderful, such a good experience.
Kelly Molson: But that was lovely because I was able to talk about how ALVA members are performing and give them a specific breakdown of the things that they're doing well, some of the things that they potentially not doing so well, and give them some real insight into how they can improve on the things when they're not doing so well. So that was lovely. And then the same at AVEA. It was great to be able to give, again, a breakdown of how irish attractions are performing in terms of the rest of the country, but also showcase attractions that are doing really brilliantly from those areas. So actually in the talks I could highlight a specific Irish attraction that was doing an absolutely phenomenal job in terms of great website, great conversion rate, all of those things.
Kelly Molson: And it was really nice to be able to shine spotlight on people this year as well.
Paul Marden: So pick out some examples of that. Yeah, so let's just pick out some of the examples from the science centre. So the ASDC members, it was interesting because ASDC members tended to have higher football than when you compared it to the whole group of respondents that we had. That surprised me. ASDC members tended to have higher entry fees than all respondents. ASDC members tended to have substantially higher mobile usage than all respondents. So you're up into 90% of traffic for ASDC members or ASDC members tended to have upwards of 89%, 90% mobile traffic, whereas when you look at the whole group of everybody, it was down into 60%. So still the majority, but not as big a majority.
Kelly Molson: That's interesting.
Paul Marden: So again, is this chance or is there something interesting about the audience that buy tickets to go to a science centre. Are they genuinely different than people that go to the all set?
Kelly Molson: Well, yeah. Is this stereotypically because someone is really interested in science and technology, therefore they are more digitally advanced potentially as an audience. And that's why that's higher. That's interesting.
Paul Marden: ASDC members tend to spend less of their gross profit on marketing. 18% of ASDC members spent more than 5% of their turnover on marketing, whereas when you look at the whole group, 24% of all respondents spent more than 5%. So it's interesting, isn't it, this difference in the outcomes and the difference for the inputs. ASDC members were much more likely to track their conversion rate, but most of them didn't track their cart abandonment rate. So they don't know how many people were giving up partway through. ASDC members were more likely to have a top level conversion rate. And of the ones that did tell us what their cart abandonment rate, it was more likely to be lower than the average. They updated their websites more frequently and they tend to spend more on their websites each year than the average.
Paul Marden: So there was markedly different things that happened across the different groups when you looked at ALVA, much larger organisations. So footfall is higher because that's a minimum entry criteria. They spend more on marketing and they have better outcomes. They had better conversion rates than average.
Kelly Molson: Unsurprising.
Paul Marden: Unsurprising completely. But what was interesting was within that group, the averages marked quite relative poor performance. So there were some examples where there were attractions spending a large amount on their site, but achieving poorer conversion rates than the average.
Kelly Molson: Hopefully those aren’t clients. Fingers crossed.
Paul Marden: So yeah, there's group averages and you can see differences by the different groups. I think in future, wouldn't it be interesting if potentially we did this sort of analysis based on the type of organisation? If you're a museum, are you more likely to have a higher conversion rate than you are if you're all respondents?
Kelly Molson: Well, this is the thing.
Paul Marden: What's of interest?
Kelly Molson: Yeah, exactly. We can say, oh, this is interesting. Wouldn't this be useful to know? But actually is it useful to know for you? One of the things that we did talk about doing was doing a regional breakdown of how attraction is performing. And I think that's probably on the cards for the next month or so to get that out. We raised that and got some quite good feedback on having that. So that's definitely top of the list.
Kelly Molson: But yeah, again, are these things going to be useful for you? We've always had the ethos that any kind of information or support documentation or essentially our marketing has to be useful for you. Right? What's the point otherwise? We need to know what you need. So more questions, please more. Do you have this? Can we have this? If we can't do it, we'll tell you, but if we can do it, we'll damn well work hard to get you it.
Paul Marden: You can just imagine that some people find the full written port to be report to be really useful. It gives a fixed set of slices and dices and it gives interesting insights and it gives recommendation. But people might be interested more in more group comparisons or geographical comparisons with less of a large report and more of a. Well, I want to see a white paper about my sector or my location or what is special about me compared to everybody else, as opposed to telling me everything that is good in the sector. Where do we focus our attention to have the best value for people at the end of this?
Kelly Molson: Good. Last question. Is there a correlation between conversion rate and visitor numbers?
Paul Marden: It's really interesting because this got me playing with the data. I'm all over a pivot table in excel. All right, so I did loads of analysis.
Kelly Molson: I am not.
Paul Marden: No. We've got our strengths and weaknesses and complement each other very well, I think when I did this first time round and I was working with a team of people that were analysing data, but I was slicing and dicing in different ways and I looked at these things and I thought there was no great relationship. But when this question came in, I had another stab at reorganising the data. And actually I did a heat map version of what is your average sales conversion rate? And we've got like zero to one to two, three to four to five and more than five. And then what is your annual visitor numbers in groups?
Paul Marden: And actually, the larger the annual footfall on site, the more likely you were to have a high conversion rate.
Kelly Molson: Just for our listeners, this data is quite difficult to visualise. We've got a graph, we've got some pre pictures that will explain this better, which we will put out on social media. If you follow our Twitter account, or if you're connected with us on LinkedIn, or follow our LinkedIn Rubber Cheese, or Skip the Queue LinkedIn pages, we'll put all of that on there. What we'll also do as well is when we edit this podcast, we always do a video. The videos don't get a lot of love, but there's loads of videos up on our YouTube. So head over to the Rubber Cheese YouTube channel and within this episode we will insert what we're talking about as well. So it's just a bit easier to digest.
Paul Marden: So yeah, there is definitely a relationship between these two factors. The more footfall there is, the more likely you are to have a high conversion rate. Just intuitively, they must be related variables. This is not just a relationship between the two. There is somehow one is feeding into the other the more footfall you have, the more budget you're going to have, the more you'll be able to invest in marketing, the more you invest in marketing, you'll have more people focusing on different elements of your marketing and you'll have more budget to spend on digital people that can focus on conversion rates and marginal gains. I don't know whether that's true. The data doesn't prove that. That's just my instinct that spending money on people like me is probably a worthwhile investment. But that's just instinct. There's no proof for that.
Paul Marden: The heat map shows there's a relationship, but there's loads of factors involved in what goes on. As I said to you before, spending more money does not guarantee you great outputs. And you have to measure these things, make regular changes, because just because you've got a large number of people coming through the door does not guarantee you a high conversion rate. And you need to graft to get to the point where your website is converting as best it possibly can. One major redesign does not an increased conversion rate may you need to do lots of little things regularly to nudge it in the right direction.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, it's just the start. Yeah. That comes back to what I said at the beginning about. I was just about to say we're at the end of the project. I'm like, no, we're not star of the project because the project is launching. That's the starting point for the rest of the process.
Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.
Kelly Molson: Oh, this has been really good. Well, look, listeners, hopefully you found that useful. Hopefully some of the listeners that are listening, we've answered your questions as well. We'll send this out to all the people that did ask the questions specifically as well. But yeah, coming back to what we've said, is there something that is a burning question from you, from the data that we've already released? Is there something that would be so incredibly useful for you that we haven't released that we might potentially have? We just don't know. Or we don't know that you need it. And what does this year's survey hold and what would be useful for the survey and the report to hold for you this year? So we are at the point now where we're gearing up for the 2024 survey.
Kelly Molson: Last year we launched it in May at the fabulous Museum and Heritage show. Plans are afoot at the moment for when we launch it, but nothing is diarised yet. So it's a really good opportunity to get involved and have your say about what you'd love to see in it this year.
Paul Marden: Yeah. There's some key themes that have come out of our kind of retrospective. We've been belly button gazing and questioning what do we do next year? And there's obvious things that come out of it. One of our big things was we want to simplify 2024. We asked too many too complex questions last year and it took too long for people to submit their responses. And that's not fair.
Kelly Molson: It's a big ask that we're asking of you to trust us with your data as it is. We don't want you sitting around for like half an hour having to fill it all out.
Paul Marden: So we want to simplify, we want less questions, and we're going to look at potentially a different questionnaire platform. We've done different platforms each year in the last two years and I don't think we found the right answer yet. So that might be an area that we try and simplify things. My instinct of, and this is just based on my own struggles with life. Okay. I am struggling with Google Analytics 4 for everybody. All of my data has moved and I don't know how to answer my questions. And that data that's in GA4, it's the core of the questions that we ask in the questionnaire. And I'm thinking, if I do this every day, what must it be like for all of you guys listening? So what can we do to help you understand how to gather the data and how to submit it?
Paul Marden: Because there's obviously going to be a disparity, isn't there, between people that do this every day and people that do this as part of a bigger job and they don't do it all the time and they need advice and guidance.
Kelly Molson: Yeah. So one of the ideas that's been floating around is that we actually put on little workshop or little webinars, which it shows you how to go and get the data that actually is needed to fill in the survey. And then that's with you. It's a reference point. You can keep hold of that for the following years and the following, the subsequent years. And we might look at, we've got a brilliant circle of fabulous suppliers that we work with that are all attractions focused, and so we could potentially partner up with them and run the workshops and do something like that.
Paul Marden: The questions that we're asking, the data that we're gathering is likely to be marketers' dream dashboards anyway. So it's not just of use to the survey itself, it's of use to your day to day month to month reporting and demonstrating the efficacy of what you're doing. We want to increase the number of people that are responding from large multi site organisations. So the plea call to action here for digital markets is in large multi sites. We were interested in talking to you about. If you've got 50 odd sites that you manage ticketing for and multiple attractions all over the country, filling in the questionnaire based form approach that we've given may not be the right way for you to share data with us. No, we're really flexible. We want data. We want to ingest more data because it improves the quality of the responses.
Paul Marden: So we'll be completely flexible around what different large multi site organisations can provide and the method with which it makes most sense for them to provide it.
Kelly Molson: So what are we doing? We're doing a vocal shout out here to National Trust, English Heritage, et cetera, to say if you want to be part of the survey and the subsequent report and the process that we're offering you, it doesn't work. You're not going to sit there 50 times, however many sites you've got and fill in this data. That's ridiculous. We can give you a better process of doing that and we can work with you one on one to work out how that works best for you as well.
Paul Marden: Completely.
Kelly Molson: If you do want to be involved, don't let the process of how we collect the data put you off. We can solve that challenge for you.
Paul Marden: Shout out, call to action. Really for everybody that submitted last year and would be thinking about this year's survey is tell us what key themes are of interest to you. We have what we think is interesting and we'll follow our noses and ask questions and ruble around the data to try and find the answers. But we don't know what you want as well as you know what you want. So tell us, as you said, Kelly, ask questions about what you'd like to see, but tell us what you'd like us to do. We might be able to do something really easily based on the data that we've already got. We might need to ask another question. There was a question that somebody asked that weren't able to answer.
Paul Marden: They wanted to know whether you were primarily educationally focused as an institution or primarily focused on selling tickets, whether that had an impact on your conversion rate. And actually, without us guessing, it's impossible for us to answer that question. And what's the point in us guessing because we're going to give you meaningless data if we ask the right questions. What's the primary focus of your website? What are the secondary focuses of your website? If we do that, then we might be able to slice and dice the data. So ask us the questions now because we can use that to influence what questions we include in the survey.
Kelly Molson: I would add to also as well, if you are well, to say thank you. We had a phenomenal amount of support with the survey last year and the report. But for us, being able to move from 70 respondents in year one to nearly 200 in year two, the difference in that was all of the membership organisations that supported. It's a mammoth task. There's no way I could have done that on my own just by sending it lots of people and hitting people up on LinkedIn and posting across social media. The biggest difference there is the support we've had. I mean, ALVA, ASVA have been huge supporters of us from the start, which we're super grateful for this year. We had AVEA come on board and help us. We've had AIM help us. We had ACE help us.
Paul Marden: We had ASDC.
Kelly Molson: ASDC. I mean there were just so many. I've got a huge list of all of the attractions and all of the kind of Hampshire's best attractions and these smaller regional attraction organisations that have supported Devon's top attractions. Without their support, we could not have done that, made that happen. So I guess what I'm asking for is continued support, please, would be great. And are there any other organisations out there that we should be talking to? And if there's any listening that haven't been involved in helping us distribute the survey this year, if you're up for it, give us a shout. I mean, the benefit to your members is phenomenal, right? What we produce for them and it's all free. It's all for free. Come and get it.
Paul Marden: That is a nice segue because yes, it's all for free, but it doesn't cost nothing. And actually what we would also like help with is sponsorship for 2024. So if there are organisations around the listening public, as it were, that would be interested in supporting the work that we do on this and would like to influence and help guide what we do, then we would be really keen on talking to people that would like to sponsor and that sponsorship could be gifting kind. So some people might be able to help us by doing things with us. Some people might be able to help us by financially supporting the data analysis or the production of reports or production of specific analyses of a slice of the sector that is of interest to them.
Paul Marden: There's lots of ways in which people could support the work that we do. And obviously the more support that we get, the bigger we can make this thing, because it is. I mean, it's a herculean task that you dreamt up two and a half, three years ago, isn't it? And you did the first one and it was amazing and you got a decent number of respondents and I think you were both amazed at the number of people that gave us data and downloaded the report and interacted with us. And then were blown away in 23. But we need to do more. There's a market for this. There's a value in what we're doing. It's not just chance. It wasn't a crackpot idea you had three years ago to do this.
Kelly Molson: It was not a crackpot idea about it at all. No, it wasn't a crackpot idea. It's really nice, actually. You've just given me a really good flashback, actually. The Museum and Heritage Show has played like a part in this for years, actually, because the survey itself launched last year at the MandH. But the previous year I sat down at the MandH and had a chat with Bernard Donoghue about. I've got this idea, Bernard, and I think this is good. I think this would deliver some real good value to the sector. Would ALVA be happy to help get the word out and stuff? And that was where it started. So isn't that funny that's a connection? I'd forgotten all about that. It's not crackpot. It is amazing and I'm so happy that we've been able to produce this.
Kelly Molson: The value that it delivers to the sector, I get. People tell me about the value. So this is not me going, it's definitely delivering value. The feedback that we've had has been so incredibly positive on it and it's just been wonderful to be part of that. So let's make next year's bigger and even better. But maybe some less questions so it doesn't take you as long.
Paul Marden: Yes, more rows in my spreadsheet, less columns in my spreadsheet.
Kelly Molson: Less time taken up. If you can do it over a cup of tea and a biscuit, then that's perfect, right?
Paul Marden: I reckon so.
Kelly Molson: Hopefully that's going to produce some good value today and we'll see you next time.
Paul Marden: Cheers. Take care.
Kelly Molson: Bye.
Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

The 2024 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE!
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What the heck is a brand proposition and why should you care? With Catherine Warrilow
21 feb· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast
Competition ends on 29th March 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://www.theplotthickens.co.uk/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherinewarrilow/
Arival link - https://arival.travel/speakers/catherine-warrilow/
TikTok link - https://www.tiktok.com/@the5minutementor
Catherine Warrilow has 16 years industry experience and runs The Plot. She creates brand proposition roadmaps for attraction and experience businesses who want to take a slightly rebellious approach to their marketing strategy.
Transcription:
Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.
On today’s episode I speak with Catherine Warrilow, founder of The Plot, a brand marketing agency.
Today we’re immersing ourselves in brand. I’m asking Catherine what the heck is a brand proposition, why is it important and who in the tourism and attraction industry is absolutely nailing it?
Kelly Molson: You can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.
Kelly Molson: Catherine, welcome to Skip the Queue.
Catherine Warrilow: Thank you very much, Kelly.
Kelly Molson: I'm really excited that you have come on to chat today. Catherine and I met in a toilet at a conference, which is where you meet all of the best people at conferences, I have to say. But I'm really chuffed that you've been able to come on and join us today. So thank you for your time. Right, we are going to start with our icebreakers, as usual. And I want to know, what would people remember you for that you went to school with?
Catherine Warrilow: Oh, my gosh. Probably the thing I remember the most, I don't know if anyone else would, is when body shop was at its height of popularity and all of their perfumes and stuff and their perfume oils. And I bought the vanilla one, which I was obsessed with, but I covered myself in the kind of the neat essence. So I spent a whole day at school smelling of ice creams with every teacher walking past going, "Why can I smell ice cream?". And everyone, "It's her.". So that is one of my standout memories. I think I was always quite creative and quirky, and I would braid my own hair like I'd been on holiday and put beads in it and come to school like that. Or smelling of ice creams.
Kelly Molson: I love that. I feel like we're of the same era. And my lasting memory of the body shop is the Dewberry. The dewberry smell. You never smelt this any other time like that school time. And I had a friend who used to buy the oil and the shampoo and all, and she just smelt of that continuously. But that was my grandparents name as well, so it was really weird. Their name was Dewberry. Anyway, very od. Good memories. And I quite like that you smell like ice cream. I would love that about you.
Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, it's worse things to smell of.
Kelly Molson: Okay, second one, if you had to pick a fictional character to best describe yourself, who would you choose?
Catherine Warrilow: Oh, my gosh. My instant one that I would like to say, but I'm not smart enough, would be Matilda. I would love to be Matilda, but I'm not. So who would it be? A fictional character? Gosh, that's so difficult. Maybe like Thelma from Scooby Doo. Problem solver.
Kelly Molson: Yep. Quick on her. Yeah, I can see that about you. Good one. You've got Matilda vibes as well. Don't dumb that down. You've definitely got Matilda vibes going on.
Catherine Warrilow: Well, I'll keep trying to move things with my mind and I'll let you know if I have any success.
Kelly Molson: Good. Come back on the podcast, let us know. Okay. What is your unpopular opinion? What have you prepared for us?
Catherine Warrilow: So I think this is one that's going to resonate with a lot of people and it's unpopular but common that travel tech is shit. So I don't get it. I don't get why we are so far behind other sectors, especially with ticketing tech. We sell billions of tickets to some of the most interesting and amazing attractions in the world. Not just in the country, in the world. Yet we still have major attractions who are having to reconcile paper tickets either because they're stuck with their tech, because they've had it so long they can't get away from it, or they're just not sure how to, or it's so difficult or slow or expensive. There must be someone or an organisation who can fix this, right?
Catherine Warrilow: And I know people are trying, like Okto are trying, which is great, but surely there must be an easier way to get the right people around the table and say, "Right. In every instance when you sell a ticket to a customer, it should kind of look like this.". But at the moment, everyone's got different systems. None of them talk to each other. Everyone's slightly different when they break. It could take months to fix. And ultimately it's the customer who loses out because we can't deliver a really effective service. Whether in OTA or an attraction yourself, it's the customer that's left with a bad experience, by and large, because the ticket you booked has vanished from your basket, or it was available 1 minute and now it's not. Or the price has changed, or something weird, you don't even get your email. Or it's confusing.
Catherine Warrilow: Which is why there's so little brand loyalty in our sector, I think. Because people will hop about and just book with whoever's quickest, easiest, cheapest at the time. And I think we've got a real challenge on our hands to up our game when it comes to tech. I don't know what you think.
Kelly Molson: Well, I'm nodding along for people that aren't watching and are listening to this, I'm nodding along probably from a different perspective because we deal directly with the ticketing that the attraction would use. So their ticketing platform for something. I think you're probably a bit more focused on the OTAs and that kind of ticketing kind of stuff. I am in total agreement with you. I am completely nodding along going that there's nothing amazing and there should be something amazing.
Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, I think it's unifying it. I think there's some good tech out there, and I'm not going to names, but there's some good tech. There's some average tech and there's some awful tech. But for the OTA and for the connectivity partner at that level, and ultimately for the customer. How do you bring together what's good and make it accessible across the board? I think that's the challenge, isn't it? How do we unify things so it's straightforward and you know what that process for B2B process should look like. And I think we're making progress, but I think it's slow.
Catherine Warrilow: And I think there has been so much change in the sector from a kind of customer perspective, from a trend perspective, from the impacts of COVID from the impacts of the cost of living crisis, that it always seems to get pushed back in the queue a little bit. Whereas it needs to be at the top of the list all of the time. But that takes a lot of time and resource and dev and investment. But I've heard whisperings of a few people who are doing quite interesting things. So I'll be interested to see what happens over the next kind of 6,9,12 months.
Kelly Molson: I think that's a challenge, isn't it? There's quite a lot of choice and it seems like every day there's a new ticketing platform or another OTA that's kind of that started and for good reasons, because obviously there's things out there that aren't working for people. But a bit more collaboration might stop giving people so much choice and actually start working together to refine the ones that are already out there and just make them better.
Catherine Warrilow: Potentially, yeah. Or give them one aggregated channel that they can all slot into in the same way. Because even when you aggregate systems, the way you integrate them is still different. I'm still trying to figure out where that ownership needs to start. Is it the attractions and experiences saying, "Okay, we have to be able to deliver this for the customer," because ultimately, starting with the customer need is the right place to start? But how do you layer that back through the process to figure out where to start fixing the right problems?
Kelly Molson: And you're right in what you said about that brand perception, then it's on the attraction, it's not on the OTA really, it's on the brand. And they need to kind of own that relationship with their client, which is what we're going to talk about today. So tell us a little bit about your background and where you've got today.
Catherine Warrilow: Yes. Which makes me feel old. Some days I feel like a spring chicken and other days I'm like, "How have I been doing this for like 15 years?".
Kelly Molson: I feel that.
Catherine Warrilow: So I got married in 2007 and shortly after we had our first son, which is all very exciting and challenging at the same time. And alongside that, I decided that it would be a great idea to start my own business with a newborn baby and that if I could do that, then everything from there on in would be a breeze, which was kind of ridiculous looking back. But I set up as a kind of freelance PR and marketing support and fell into travel totally by accident. I knew someone who was running the team at owners direct at the time, the holiday rentals company, and they wanted someone to come in and basically secure them pr coverage as being a great choice for booking holiday rental, mainly UK and Europe, but some further afield. And it just kind of spiralled from there.
Catherine Warrilow: I realised that there was a massive opportunity to up people's game when it came to pr and content, and that was before everything was about content creation and social. It was on the cusp of, "Okay, we can use Facebook to reach people organically and people just weren't really doing that.". It was pre having to pay to play. And I started making a bit of a name for myself within travel and started working for home away, which is now Vrbo. People like hard rock hotels, great little breaks. And it just grew from there. And I grew the business to a very small agency in rural Oxfordshire of about six people. And that's how I kind of accidentally fell into travel.
Kelly Molson: I love that. I had no idea that it was an accidental as well. For some reason I thought that was it. That was always going to be your focus. It's amazing how these kind of things happen that guide our career, isn't it?
Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, it just happened. And then we pitched actually for the pr for Days Out With The Kids many years ago. And were up against some really big agencies and I was like, "This is it. This is our kind of big moment.". And we really held our own against kind of top Manchester, Birmingham, London agencies. And in the end, the CEO at the time asked if I would go in house to set up their marketing strategy, their brand strategy, hire a team. They'd not long bought the business and it was covered in display ads and it was a mess, but it was driving millions of organic visits every year.
Catherine Warrilow: And it was a cliche sliding doors moment where I was like, look, I've spent nine years building up this incredible business and it's my baby and I love it and I feel proud to have built it up, but this is an incredible opportunity to do something amazing. So I ended up kind of selling the business and going into Days Out With The Kids, which was just such a great decision because it gave me probably what I was craving in terms of building effective teams and working for household name brands. And that was the start of me going into employed roles for about, gosh, another eight or so years.
Kelly Molson: Great. And now you've set off on another new adventure.
Catherine Warrilow: Yes, because we reinvent ourselves, don't we? And go where the opportunities feel most exciting. Yeah. So I lost my job with Days Out last September, which was gutting, because again, that passion for building the most incredible teams was real. I hired some of the best people that I have ever hired and we're still great friends now, but when I left there, I was like, "Okay, I will apply for roles and I will ask my network if they would like to work with me.". It was as simple as that. I will figure this out as I go along. You know me, I'm quite an honest, heart on sleeve type person. I'm a bit of an oversharer. So I went onto LinkedIn and said I was gutted to say that I wasn't with days out anymore, but that the world was my oyster.
Catherine Warrilow: And then people just started popping up from connections I've had for years. Connections through things like Arival, through other podcasts that I've done in the past, through content I've created, through past clients, all sorts, right back to my very early career. And I was like, "Actually, I think there is a big opportunity here for me to go back out on my own.". And I knew from the start I didn't want to build an agency. I didn't want to hire people. I just wanted to use all of that experience I've built up over travel over the last 15, 16 years and help people solve brand proposition problems that they can't see themselves with a slight rebellious streak in the middle of working with people who don't want to just follow the crowd. They want to do things a bit differently.
Catherine Warrilow: They want to stand up and be heard and it's just gone from there. So I took on my first paying client at the beginning of November and it's incredible and I bloody love it. And I'm so glad that I fell back into this way of working and I just feel very lucky that I've been able to stay in the sector that I absolutely love.
Kelly Molson: I'm so touched for you. I've got a big smile on my face as you're saying. I've watched your journey and I've watched how it's kind of played out. It's really interesting. Someone said to me a little while ago, you never know who's watching you never know who's taking interest. And I kind of like that. And I think you are someone that I've always, we have genuinely only met once in real life, in a toilet at a conference. But I've followed you for a long time on LinkedIn, and I've seen how helpful and supportive you are to the sector, and I've seen a lot of your posts that go out and talking about other issues and things like that as well, very openly and publicly.
Kelly Molson: I've always really admired that about you and I think you are someone who's super helpful and stuff like that comes back tenfold. So when you put that post out, I know how tough that was. Like, I felt the emotion in that post for you, but was just like, I'd read that post, I was like, "She's got nothing to worry about here at all.". And I could see people comment in and I'm going to connect you to the, "Oh, we should talk, we should do this.". And I was like, "There you go. Good people. Good things come back to in tenfold.". So it's lovely to see you in this position.
Catherine Warrilow: And it was amazing. And that gave me, I think, the foundation I needed to get back out there and carry on attending events and carry on creating content and sharing my thoughts and ideas and all of that kind of thing. And it was funny because a while before that, I'd asked a handful of people from my network kind of, what am I known for? And would you recommend me? And what would you recommend me for? And someone came back and said, "You care more about the result than you do about people's opinions.". And I think that sums me up quite well because I want the best outcome, whether that's for me and my business or for a partner that I'm working for. And I'm happy to say things people might not want to hear because I know it will get them a better outcome.
Catherine Warrilow: And I think that's so important. And I think hopefully that comes across when I either talk to people or I post online that I am authentically who I say I am and you will genuinely get the best of me regardless of how big the challenge is. And that's really important to me. I'd say that's kind of a big part of my values is to share authentic truth rather than either kind of saying what everyone else is saying or saying what someone wants to hear, which will put people off as well. And that's kind of a good screening process in a way.
Kelly Molson: Yes. It's a good way to cherry pick who's the right client, definitely wants to work for me and they're going to get me as well. I love this. Right, okay, we're going to talk about brand today. We're going to talk about brand proposition. What the heck is a brand proposition for our lovely listeners?
Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, and it's a big question. It's basically everything a brand stands for. Absolutely everything a brand stands for. And that sounds quite overwhelming, but really it's not. It's a combination of kind of vision, mission, values. So where are you trying to get to and what are you doing to get there and how are you being when you do that? So what are the kind of the morals and values that underpin the business and that foundation takes you through everything to the point which you sell a product or service to a customer. And that will be everything from your tone of voice and your brand personality, how your brand looks and feels aesthetically, the channels you use to communicate with people and sell through.
Catherine Warrilow: So it really is everything that kind of makes up what matters about a brand and what makes it different and why ultimately a customer would buy from you versus someone else. Which is why I touched on the kind of the challenges with ticketing in our sector because that is a huge obstacle for lots of OTAs in managing their brand proposition effectively because it will have a real knock on effect on the perception their customer has of that brand.
Kelly Molson: And that element of it is slightly out of their control as well, isn't it? Which is unfortunate. What I like about this is that we are, I think as a whole, we're kind of coming away from that thing where people used to go, "Oh, I've got my brand sorted, because I've got my logo.". No, that's a brand element. This is not what we're talking about here. Why is brand proposition so important to get right.
Catherine Warrilow: I think brand proposition comes down to what you sell, who to and for what gain. And the gain is the customer problem. So what problem do you solve for that customer? So days out, as an example, were going after the younger end of the audience who just want to find something with bragging rights and book it quick with the trust and ease of use of real person customer service on Whatsapp and pay with Klana. So book it Whatsapp to make sure you've got your tickets right backs and forwards with a real human being in real time and then pay for it later. So we knew exactly who were, who for and for what gain for that customer. That's why you have to get it right.
Catherine Warrilow: And I speak to a lot of people who, a lot of clients who say they fall at the first hurdle with the first question, which is, "Who are you targeting?" And they're like, "Well, everyone who wants to travel.". And you're like, "No, you're not." 100% not. You might want to be on the radar of lots and lots of people, and lots of people might buy from you, but most people won't because there is so much choice. You've got to know exactly who you are talking to and why you fit the needs and the values of that person. And those values need to be reciprocal because you will never create brand ambassadors otherwise. You will create transient customers who will buy from you once and then move on. And that's an expensive customer to have.
Catherine Warrilow: Whereas if your brand proposition is spot on and everything in the way you do business and the way you communicate, the way your customer service team communicate is consistent, people will buy into that feeling as well as what they're paying money for. And the booking process is part of what they're paying for. And that is part of the reason they will pay more, because they know it's quick and easy and if anything goes wrong, you'll sort it and they will pay 5% more for the privilege of that. Which means your pricing strategy is healthier as well. So all of these different things make up the brand proposition, not just the way your website looks or your logo. If it's lairy and orange and pink and green, that is not going to stand you apart from everyone else. It might get you noticed once.
Catherine Warrilow: But all of that substance of your brand proposition below, that is what will engage, retain a customer, create an ambassador out of them, i.e. They will leave a positive review, they will engage with your content, they will share your content, all of those things.
Kelly Molson: That word substance is really important in this conversation, isn't it? Because a lot of people still, I think, view brand as very much the kind of aesthetic layer that sits on top of that. But it is about substance. This brand proposition has to run through the core of everything that you do. And it's not just about the visuals, it's about how you speak to people, your tone of voice, all of that kind of stuff as well. How do you start to shape that proposition? Where does an organisation start with that?
Catherine Warrilow: Like I said before, it starts with that vision mission values piece. Because if you are not clear on where you are trying to get to, then how do you even start building things like content pillars, for example? And quite often there's a vision stuck up on the wall, in the office, in the meeting room, which no one could recite back to you and it actually doesn't mean anything. So having substance within the vision is the first point of call. The mission is how you get there and what you're doing to get there. And if you don't know that, you can't create goals, if you haven't got measurable goals, how do you define what success looks like?
Catherine Warrilow: And that takes you into things like understanding your products and your revenue streams, because you might have really popular products and you're like, "Oh yeah, we're selling loads of these tools. They're so popular, everyone loves them. But why is that?". Is it because you're the cheapest on the market? And actually, if you look at your numbers, are you making any profit on that product? Because there's a massive difference between popular and profitable. So it matters because at the heart of the business is a need to be profitable. You want a product and service that people love and is profitable and that people rave about. And it drives you loads of repeat business and loads of new business through word of mouth.
Catherine Warrilow: But to get to the point where you can set those goals that are measurable, you have to know where you're trying to get to. And what often happens, and what I find with a lot of partners is their vision is either ten years old and they're still kind of running around in circles trying to figure out how they get there. And it's not that anymore, because the market's changed, the customers changed, pricing has changed, they've got goals, but they're not measurable, or they've got customers and they never talk to them, they never ask them what they can do better or where else they buy from. So they've got no data, they've got a website that performs pretty well, but they never look at the analytics, so they don't know how they're acquiring customers or how much is costing them to acquire a customer.
Catherine Warrilow: And that all of a sudden feels very messy and complicated, doesn't it? It feels overwhelming to start picking things off to make sure those things are happening in a sensible, logical order that takes you from A to B to make a profit. So I kind of break all those different things down into sections, create a roadmap specifically for the business, and bring to the table all of my expertise to start aligning those things. And what will happen is we'll find some massive gaps. The vision is totally wrong, or they're going after the whole market and they don't really know who their customer is, or so they're trying to talk to everybody, so their tone of voice is just beige, or their goals aren't the right goals, or they're not measurable, or they're measuring the wrong things.
Catherine Warrilow: And you start to see where those opportunities are and you start to see the holes that need to be plugged. And suddenly brand proposition feels like a much simpler, tangible route forward, rather than this kind of crazy maze of stuff that you just don't know where to navigate first.
Kelly Molson: Something you said at the start of that was really interesting, actually, as an aside question is somebody's mission or their vision, and the mission might be completely misaligned now it's been in place for ten years or so, and they're visiting it and the market has changed. How frequently should you look at those things? Like, I get my organisation together tomorrow, we set our new vision and mission. You would hope that we would be kind of checking in on that. Are we all aligned? Are we scenario? How often do you think that changes for people? And how frequently should you kind of refer back to it and go, "Is this still relevant?".
Catherine Warrilow: That's such a good question and I think it should be in mind daily. And if a business is asked what their vision is and they can't recite it off like that, then it's not right or it's too complicated. And I did a big exercise with a client a couple of weeks ago, which was actually around their why and their purpose, because it was really important to them that they were running an ethical, sustainable business, that they gave something back to the community. But their why was about an, a four page long. And I challenged them on it and they said, "Oh yeah, well, actually the community part is really important to us and it wasn't in there anyway anywhere.". So what I did is an exercise where we distilled it down bit by bit.
Catherine Warrilow: So we took out all of the filler words and had a look what was left and that came out as kind of care, community, making a difference and a handful of other things. So we stripped it right back and ended up with one sentence, which was about ten or twelve words long. I was like, that actually means something. And that is something you can look at every day and say, "Does launching this new product or service may give something back to the community?". Well, actually, no, it doesn't, because it's going to take us 20 years to fulfil that element. So do we scale it back? Do we make it simpler? Do we make it shorter? What do we do? Do we make it more accessible?
Catherine Warrilow: I think if you can't look at least your vision on a daily basis and say the things on my to do list absolutely fit with that, then you need to challenge yourself on the tactics that you're implementing to reach that vision and the goals you've set for the business. So I think most people would hope, I would say quarterly in the team meeting.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, that's exactly what people hope. Once a year we revisit that.
Catherine Warrilow: I don't think you want to change it more than annually. You might tweak it if you have to keep throwing it out every year and redoing it. There's something wrong with your business model. But if you can look at it, mine's up on my wall. Mine's really simple. It's rebel plans for travel brands, which basically means a bit kind of rogue compared to your typical marketing strategy. And my why is because you don't want to be the same as everyone else and I don't want to do boring work. That's it. Simple as that. So if I look at my to do list today and say, "Is that boring or is that going to make a difference, and it's not, then I need to challenge myself on what I am delivering for that client or for my own business.".
Catherine Warrilow: Am I saying I haven't written a blog for ages, I should write one? If it's crap to fill a space, then I shouldn't be doing it. I need to challenge myself to put the effort in, to think about what I want to say on that topic, how my opinion is different, how I back that opinion up, what other people are saying, bring in other voices and your vision and mission should make you do things properly, they should make you do them to a much higher standard and they should raise the game of your business, your team and the industry, because that's ultimately where you need to be to succeed, isn't it? You need to be pushing for better.
Kelly Molson: I think we're all getting a very clear picture of what it would be like to work with you, Catherine, from this interview. Love it.
Catherine Warrilow: It's a great screening process, isn't it? Some people will go, oh, my God, that sounds horrendous. That sounds like an awful lot of work. No, thank you. Other people will say, "I think she could see where we're going wrong, where we can't see it because we're so entrenched in what we're doing.".
Kelly Molson: Yeah. I'm sitting here going, "She needs to come in and work on our brand. This is what we need.". Okay. How does the brand proposition translate into what the consumer or the visitor engages with? I guess. How do you get your brand proposition across to them in the right way?
Catherine Warrilow: Yeah, I think it gets really overcomplicated in a lot of businesses, and that's usually because bits have been tacked on at different times to try different things and see how they work. It should translate to everything. It should translate to the hero strap line across the homepage of your website. It should translate to the bios on your social channels. If you still have business cards, it should translate there. It should translate to how you conduct yourself in front of people, at events, in meetings, in pitches with customers. And one of the things that often gets forgotten and is why it gets all confused from a consumer facing perspective, is it should translate internally as well. Behind the scenes, how your team meetings run, how your one to ones run, the culture and the atmosphere in the office. It should translate through everything.
Catherine Warrilow: Because if it doesn't, how do you expect your marketing team, your sales team, your customer service team to get that across to the customer if your staff don't feel it themselves? And that's probably the only thing that I miss about working in house, is creating that momentum and energy within a team. And it is absolutely astronomical. What a difference it makes to productivity, to engagement, to buy in, to smoothing out bumps when you go through difficult periods of change or reorganisation or someone leaves the business, or whatever it is. You can weather those kind of things so much more easily if you start with the people within your business and making that vision and mission exciting to them.
Catherine Warrilow: And that might be down to the fact that the quarterly team meeting is just so incredibly painful and dull that people just switch off so they don't absorb any of the information about where the business is going next, because it's delivered in such a static, boring way that you need totally transform that and it needs to be led by the teams or it needs to be designed as a quiz or something like just make it different, make it more fun. And I guarantee then it becomes very easy to translate that through to everything from the customer's perspective because it will come through in tone of voice and how you handle a difficult customer service query. It will come through in creating content on TikTok or whatever channels you use. It will just be ingrained in everything.
Kelly Molson: Because your team are owning that and they've got such an input into the kind of division and the mission and the brand proposition, they then can sell that on to the consumers. So they're your internal ambassadors. We talked about ambassadors earlier.
Catherine Warrilow: Yeah.
Kelly Molson: And obviously that's going to help with recruitment as well. If you've got a really strong kind of brand proposition, more people want to come and be involved in that too.
Catherine Warrilow: Yeah. And it brings confidence to everything. I mean, our job descriptions at Days Out attracted people who weren't even looking for a job because they saw the ad. They were like, "Oh, my gosh, I didn't even think I wanted to move and now I do.". And I had to apply because they were written by real people, designed for real people who just want to be in jobs which they love and they feel invested in and appreciated and rewarded and recognised.
Catherine Warrilow: So it was less about, you must have five years of this, you must be able to do that and more about, do you want to come to work and actually feel like you want to be there and that you want to work really hard because you care about making a difference to that business because they are as invested as you are in the brand. And, yeah, recruitment is a difficult business and retention is a difficult business. So if you can bring together all of those things in such an incredible way across everything you do, then recruiting all of a sudden becomes a joy. And seeing people who want to work for you is incredible.
Catherine Warrilow: So, yeah, it affects everything and you can see I get really excited about that because I think we so often forget that it's our people that will drive the success and we just go over that shiny thing over there. But actually, if you don't tell anyone else in the business what that shiny thing is and why it matters, then how on earth are you going to move mountains to get to that point?
Kelly Molson: Totally agree with every single word that you're saying, Catherine. Totally agree with it. Right. We've talked about what it is, who's doing it well, tourism and attraction industry and why.
Catherine Warrilow: Gosh. So I mentioned my time at doubt with the kids, and it was a very different beast when I was there, because were really trying to make fundamental changes in how we monetise the site, whereas now they've come so far, and I think I have to call out their content strategy and their content team, because in an incredibly crowded market, where you are competing for the attention of parents, the most time poor people on the planet, they have totally understood what type of content resonates with people, and they've understood how to keep people engaged in a community. And that might be anything from behind the scenes, an attraction, quite literal content. But that whole kind of.
Catherine Warrilow: Oh, my gosh, you won't believe what's round this corner at this tiny farm park and bringing to life the lesser known attractions that have huge amounts to offer customers through to stuff that's trending, whether that's pop culture or music, tv, film, just tapping into the mood of the nation. My definition of that is situational relevance. So how do you bring together a situation or trend that's important to people now with the relevance of your brand? And it goes back to what we're saying about tone of voice before. What's your perspective on that topic? Why would a customer engage with your brand about that topic if it's not literally trying to sell them a ticket to an attraction?
Catherine Warrilow: And I think what they've done with channels like TikTok, for example, is they've absolutely understood, A, what problem they solve for the customer, but B, what's important to them now and what they're talking about right this minute, because that will be different today to it is tomorrow. And they are quick and they are agile and they are reactive to trends and topics, and they've understood how to have that conversation with someone within their audience demographic. And that's not easy. That is a huge undertaking of time and effort and research, and it doesn't take two minutes to create a decent TikTok that's going to engage people. People think it's like an instantaneous throwaway channel, but it's not. And you've got to hook people in about a second and a. So I think they're doing great things.
Catherine Warrilow: When it comes to attractions, Cannon Hall Farm in Barnsley in Yorkshire, I think are epic. I think, again, they captured situational relevance by streaming things like lambing season on Facebook. Years and years ago, they started doing that and they were like, "Oh, we're on something.". People want to watch the lambs being born and how we care for them and how we bring new life into the world and how good that feels. And that led to them doing a whole series with Channel five. And I just think they had their vision and mission and products spot on. They had the foundations. They knew what they were delivering, who to for what gain. They were bringing people up close and personal with farming life in a way that just captured families. And I think they've sustained that, and I think that's quite difficult to do.
Catherine Warrilow: I think they've evolved with the times, and they've carried on improving their products, and they've carried on communicating that to people who want that type of experience. So I think that they're brilliant. And then the other one would be Marsh Farm in Essex. Their understanding of events and how to capture people through events is out of this world. And what they do is they look, I don't think they intentionally do it, but what they've managed to do is create a triangle between celebrity. So someone like Daisy Solomon and how she celebrates Halloween, for example, and an experience that they can deliver that captures that to people in a way they can afford.
Catherine Warrilow: So their pumpkin patches and photo moments around Halloween are mind blowing, because what they've done, they've looked at what people want to achieve at the celebrity level, but potentially can't cover their front doorstep in a million pumpkins and have ghosts coming out of every part of the.
Kelly Molson: Catherine, honestly.
Catherine Warrilow: But they can go and have that experience at Marsh Farm with their kids, take photos of their kids in a wheelbarrow surrounded by pumpkins, and feel like they've had a slice of that lifestyle. And they up their game with every single event they do. And it's remarkable. And the effort that goes into delivering that wrapped up with incredible customer service is second to none. And I think a lot of attractions can learn from how they deliver that experience.
Kelly Molson: I totally agree. Marsh Farm is James Sinclair, isn't it? That's him, yes.
Catherine Warrilow: And Aaron Oathman. Yeah.
Kelly Molson: James actually came on the podcast.He was a really early guest on the first season of the podcast when me and my old co founder used to do it together. Actually, I think my co founder interviewed James on his own, actually. I don't think I was on that one. But we had seen James, he'd been on our radar for a long time. And he is a smart cookie. He really is a smart. I think he's probably a bit marmite for people, in all honesty. But that's a good thing, right? That's filthy. But I absolutely love his content. I love it. I can sit and watch it all day long and he's got so much to talk about and there's so much value that he delivers as well. So from a personal brand perspective, I think he's kind of nailing that as well.
Catherine Warrilow: Oh, 100%. And that's something we haven't even touched on, is personal brand. That's a conversation for another day. But it fits in neatly with getting your people invested in the business vision, because they are your brand ambassadors. They are the people going out to events and selling the dream. And some people don't see the value of that, but the way they conduct themselves, especially if you're in B2B and you're in trade events and you're negotiating relationships with suppliers or trying to get people to come to your stand and talk to you about a product or service, they're not going to do that unless your personal brand has that magnetism. And you're absolutely right, James has that magnetism.
Kelly Molson: Yeah. Which, again, is going to help with his recruitment and then building those brands and then vision. So it's all part and parcel of the same thing. Exactly. I love it. Great examples as well. Thank you for sharing those. What are your top tips that you'd like to share with our listeners today?
Catherine Warrilow: So, the first one I won't labour over, because it's getting your people aligned with your vision, and we've talked about that a lot. It all starts there. If you can't get people to adore the plans of the business, then it's going to be hard work to get to that point. I think the second one is something we touched on early on. It's about authenticity. Whether you're customer facing and you're an attraction or an experience, whether you're an OTA, whether you're a res tech company. Authenticity, I think, is everything. If you can't do something, don't say you can. If you can't fix something, don't say you can. Be honest. Just be honest about everything, with your customers, with your teams, with your partners, and do your absolute best to find the right solution.
Catherine Warrilow: So if you let a customer down, don't gloss over and say, "Oh, well, we couldn't have controlled that.". Say, "We're gutted that this has happened, we can't fix it, but this is what we're going to do to avoid it happening again. This is the problem we've uncovered.". Just bring it all to the surface. I don't understand why brands don't let people see in. Because we know as customers that the brands we resonate with and have an affinity with are the ones we trust. It's as simple as that. So why not let people into that world a bit more? And the way we use social these days allows us to do that, allows us to have a window into our world. So use that to your advantage. Show you're listening.
Catherine Warrilow: Show that you take on board feedback, whether that's internally, externally or otherwise, and just be the best, genuine version of yourself and your business that you can be. And then the third thing I would say is, try new stuff now. So if you're not on TikTok and you're like, "We need to be on TikTok, but we don't understand it, we don't get it, we don't have the resource.". Don't put it off. You will never have enough resource for everything you want to do. You will never be a master at all things. But try them now. Don't have them on that forever to do list. Whether that's approaching a new partner or researching a new sector within tours, experiences and attractions, do it now.
Catherine Warrilow: And if you're listening to this or watching this and you've had one of those things on your list, please do something about it this week and come back and tell us both what you've done, because I think you just need that push in the right direction. People wait for the perfect moment to try something new or do something new or launch something new. There is never a perfect moment. You will miss the boat. And then you have that constant frustration of, "Oh, those guys are doing it brilliantly. Why didn't we just dot.". Because if you had have done, you probably would be creating great content on that channel now. You probably would be in a partnership with that new wine tour. Just don't wait. Trends come and go. Just get on with it. Stop waiting.
Kelly Molson: I feel like you've also just made us about 400 people's accountability partners there as well. So thanks for that.
Catherine Warrilow: Okay, I'm going to rescind that last bit. Tell me what you've done this week.
Kelly Molson: Take it, send and email us. All Catherine's details will be in the show notes. It's fine. You can email us both. Let us know what you've taken off your list and what you've gone ahead with. We want to know. I'm joking. All 400 of you and more. It's great tips. Thank you for sharing today. I've really thoroughly enjoyed this. Where can we get more from you? You're actually going to be talking soon. At quite a large event, aren't you?
Catherine Warrilow: Yeah. So you can see me in person at Arival first weekend of March. So I'll be talking about everything we've talked about today, actually taking your mission and vision and values right through to monetisation and figuring out where those gaps are in the middle. So that'd be a really practical, hands on workshop. I'm a real kind of sharpie marker and paper type person, so you will actually get a physical roadmap to take away and fill in yourself, which I think is going to be really fun. I'm a massive oversharer, like I said, so you can find me on LinkedIn a lot, on TikTok a lot. I can't profess to be a TikTok expert by any stretch, but I am persevering because I think it's a brilliant channel to share quick pieces of advice and tips and hacks.
Catherine Warrilow: So little things that you can do right now that will improve the brand strategy within your business. So, yeah, you can find me quite easily, I'm afraid.
Kelly Molson: We will put all of Catherine's details in the show notes as well, so you just can refer back to there and you'll be able to find her. One thing I would say about Catherine's website, you have to go and cheque it out, because there's a little line on Catherine's website that I absolutely love. It says, "You need help, we're ready to fix your shit.". And I was like, "Yeah, she absolutely is. This woman is going to fix your shit.". Okay. I always end the episodes with a book that our guests love. So, what have you brought to recommend to our listeners today?
Catherine Warrilow: So, it's ironic, actually, because my two book recommendations, the first one's called The Power of Doing Less, by an author called Fergus O'Connell. And this is about getting rid of all the distractions and noise. And it's a really simple, short book that you'll want to keep on your desk with post it notes in pages, because it's just a good reminder of things like, "Am I the best person to do this? Is there someone else in the business that is better at this and should be doing this? Do I need to do it now? Is it important right now? Or am I just doing it because it's the top of the list? Should I be doing it in the way I think I should be doing it? Should I be doing part of it and not all of it?".
Catherine Warrilow: And it's just a great sanity cheque deck for not being a busy fool. And I love that. And it just keeps you sharp in terms of prioritising because nothing's ever urgent. It's either important or it's not. And then the second one, again, a bit ironic, based on my kind of love of bringing lots and lots of different things together, is called The One Thing by Gary Keller. Actually, it's not ironic really, because really, that's about the vision. Like, what is the one thing we are trying to do here and does everything else we're doing align to that one purpose? That is just such a brilliant book and it really helps you get focused and clarity on what you're doing and why. So, yeah, those are my two recommendations.
Kelly Molson: Brilliant books, and they haven't come up previously as well. I love this. I always like it when a guest brings a book. I'm like, "Oh, that's gone on to my list as well.". Listeners, if you want to win a copy of Catherine's books, so as ever, go over to our twitter account and retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Catherine's books and you'll be in with the chance of winning them. We also have a I'll put it in the show notes, but we have a brilliant blog on our website, on the Rubber Cheese website that lists all of these books that our guests come on and share. So it's become kind of a virtual library for people to go and refer to back to over the years. So thank you for adding to our library today.
Kelly Molson: Thank you for coming on and sharing. It's been a great chat. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I love talking about brand. It is a little bit of my background as well, so I completely understand and embrace everything that you've talked about today. Good luck at Arival. I hope that goes brilliantly and I look forward to all of those emails that we're about to receive about people taking things off their list, doing them.
Catherine Warrilow: And I'll see you in a toilet somewhere soon, hopefully.
Kelly Molson: Probably. Like I said, all the best people meet in toilets.
Catherine Warrilow: Thanks, Kelly.
Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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The Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses, with Emily Yates
7 feb· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned in this podcast
Competition ends on 29th March 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-rose-yates/
https://mimagroup.com/
https://mimagroup.com/the-redesign-podcast
Download: VisitEngland Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses
Emily Yates is a wheelchair user with cerebral palsy living in Glasgow, Scotland. She loves to write, travel and is a real pink hair enthusiast. Emily has over a decade of experience as an accessibility consultant. Now the Head of Accessibility and Inclusive Design at Mima, Emily has worked with large transport, culture and heritage and global events organisations such as Heathrow Airport, COP28, the Science Museum Group and the Rio 2016 Olympic and Paralympic Games to further their physical, social and digital accessibility measures.
She has also worked with the Council of Europe, international travel networks, and sat on equality boards advising various sporting, transport and travel organisations on their access and inclusion agendas.
Emily frequently presents and writes on disability issues, having fronted several documentaries for BBC Three and written for the Guardian, the Independent and Telegraph Travel. She also authored the Lonely Planet Guide to Accessible Rio de Janeiro.
Transcription:
Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.
In today’s podcast I speak with Emily Yates, Head of Accessibility and Inclusive Design, at Mima.
Mima worked alongside Visit Britain to co create the Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses, which aims to act as the resource for travel, tourism and hospitality organisations.
Emily and I discuss how it was created, why it is such a vital resource, and how it will evolve over time.
If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.
Kelly Molson: Hi, Emily. It's lovely to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for coming on and joining me and at very short notice, too. Appreciate it.
Emily Yates: Not at all. Thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here.
Kelly Molson: Well, we're going to have a good chat today. I'm looking forward to this. Right, I am going to start my icebreakers with this question for you. Have you ever been told off by a security guard for touching anything in a museum that you should not have been touching?
Emily Yates: What a great question. I don't think I have, but something that immediately comes to mind. It was a very embarrassing moment that I had at the Museum of the Future in Dubai a few months ago, where I touched something that I shouldn't have done. And what it was there was an interactive kind of tabletop interactive going on, and there were groups of people from all over the world who were visiting this museum and there was this one couple who were trying to sort their wristband to make this interactive work and I just figured that they couldn't do it. So I put my wristband on to help them and I changed all the information to me and they were so annoyed to me, in a massive grump.
Emily Yates: Yeah, they just thought that I'd, like, nicked all of their information and their opportunity to do this activity and I was just trying to be helpful.
Kelly Molson: That's the actual digital version of skipping the queue, basically. You wristbanded them out of the way.
Emily Yates: I totally did. And the worst thing was that were on this group tour, so I had to stay with them for the rest of the tour.
Kelly Molson: They were with you. That’s a little bit awkward, those group tours, aren't they? Because you never know if you're going to like anyone or if ones are going to get on your nerves. So you just made it even more awkward than it needed to be.
Emily Yates: There you go.
Kelly Molson: Right. I love it. Okay, there's a three parter to this question, but it's a good one. And actually, thank you, whoever sent this one in, because I genuinely can't remember who sent me this one, but I really like. It's the first time that I'm using it, too. Okay. So they say the formula for visitor attractions is one, a great view, two, a great brew, and three, a great loo. So I want to know where you've encountered your best three of these. They can be different. So best view?
Emily Yates: Best view, I would have to say. Can it be international? I would have to say Sugarloff Mountain, Rio de Janeiro.
Kelly Molson: Wow.
Emily Yates: Absolutely incredible view. Yeah. Like nothing else. Best brew. Oh, I'm trying to think of somewhere that has a great cafe, the V&A Museum in Dundee has a brilliant cafe that also has a great view, I have to say. That would be my best brew.
Kelly Molson: We like that one. And then three best loo.
Emily Yates: Best loo. It would have to be somewhere that has a changing places toilet. And of course, I need to say that being an access consultant, I'm trying to think where does. But I know for certain that a client I'm working with, the National Science and Media Museum in Bradford, has one about to be kind of refurbished and all sorted. So I would say there.
Kelly Molson: Excellent. Good choices as well. I love that you've got a Dundee one in there that was like two out of the three. I mean, there you go. There's a challenge for them. If they can up their game, they can get that third one from you as well.
Emily Yates: Yeah, absolutely.
Kelly Molson: Nice. All right, what's your unpopular opinion?
Emily Yates: Oh, my unpopular opinion? Both heels and handbags are overrated. As a wheelchair user, I have never, ever worn a pair of high heels in my life. I'm 32 years old, so I think that's quite an accomplishment. And also pushing all the time. Unless it's a cross body one, I can never hold a handbag, so, yeah, I'm a Converse and rook sack girl all the way.
Kelly Molson: Right. Because, yeah, it would get in the way, wouldn't it? You need to kind of have it across and then, I guess, tucked in a little bit and then what's the point of having something fancy if you're going to just.
Emily Yates: Exactly.
Kelly Molson: I mean, I'm kind of with you. I'm not a wheelchair user. However, my feet were not designed for high heels at all. I'm a flat scale all the way.
Emily Yates: Maybe not. Unpopular opinion. Maybe there's just two camps, two very distinct camps, isn't there?
Kelly Molson: I think probably two camps, but I don't think this is an unpopular opinion. Even in a camp of people that could actively wear those heels and might want to. I still think that there’s a.
Emily Yates: There's a secret loo. Wish we didn't have to. Maybe I'm in a lovely position, that I've got a lovely excuse.
Kelly Molson: Never had to think about this. Never had to squeeze your tiny feet into those awkwardly pointy, evil contraptions. Right, let's see. Well, let's see what everyone on Twitter has got to share with us on that. Thank you, Emily. I want to find out a little bit about. Well, I want to find out a little bit about your role and your background and then tell us a little bit about Mima as well.
Emily Yates: Yes, sure. So, I am a wheelchair user. I was born with cerebral palsy. I'm, as you can probably tell from my accident, from a little town called Skipton in North Yorkshire. And I'm also a twin, and my twin lives in Spain now, so she's got the sunshiny life. There's definitely a tan difference between the two of us now, for sure. And I've always worked in the world of accessibility and inclusive design, from leaving a university, really. And it's led me to amazing opportunities to be able to travel a lot, to be able to see, I guess, the importance of my capabilities as a disabled person, rather than just my limitations as a disabled person. And I've brought that into my professional work as well as my personal life as well. So I now work for an amazing human centred design agency called Mima.
Emily Yates: It stands for Micro and Macro, so details and then zooming out into the big picture, looking at that end to end journey. And I head up the accessibility and inclusive design team there. So whether you're talking about airports or train stations or of course, museums and galleries or even global events and sporting events, we look at auditing, facilitating lived experience, user groups, standards, policies, disability awareness training, all of that good stuff, and bring our design expertise into wider projects with us as well. And it's brilliant.
Kelly Molson: That's how we got chatting, isn't it? Because you've worked with a really broad. We work with a hugely broad range of clients, as you've just said. But I think David and I started talking somebody I can't remember, it was a good friend of mine, it was Jo Geraghty. She introduced us because we had visitor attractions and kind of heritage and culture organisations in common. So we had a brilliant chat about this and then we had a chat and then this project happened that you've all been involved in, which is amazing. So this is what we're going to talk about today. Now, you'll probably agree with this, but I think when it comes to accessibility and inclusivity, I think it's fair to say that kind of travel tourism organisations, they want to do the right thing.
Kelly Molson: There's a real desire to be able to do the right thing, but they often don't really know what that is and where to go and find the support to be able to do those things, like where do they start looking to kind of understand the checklist of things that they need to go through to make sure that their venue is accessible. The Visit Britain Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses aims to change that.
Kelly Molson: I saw Ross Calladine, who's the Accessibility and Inclusion Lead at VisitEngland, speak about this a while ago, before it had launched. He was speaking at a Visit Hearts networking event that I went to. It is an incredible resource for the sector. Like, absolutely incredible. I've had a really deep dive into it and it is so useful and so full of incredible information. But you and Mima have been involved in putting this together with them? This has been a joint project.
Emily Yates: Yes, absolutely. So we were the toolkit authors and I feel very honoured to have worked with Ross and Hannah at VisitEngland for the last year know. They're just a wonderful client and we've got on really well. And Ross, as you will probably know from hearing him speak, absolutely has his heart in the right place when it comes to accessibility and inclusive design. But I think really importantly as well, has his finger on the pulse of the business benefit of this, which of course is really important. And you very rightly said there that a lot of especially small to medium sized businesses want to do the right thing, but often don't know where to start. And quite a lot of the time that's to do with budget, it's to do with time, it's to do with resourcing constraints, all of that stuff.
Emily Yates: And what we really wanted this toolkit to do was to provide some holistic tips and advice for those businesses that actually says, “We understand the limitations that exist.” We understand that it's not possible to just click your fingers and magic up a changing places, for example, that were talking about earlier. But it is possible to think about your staff training, your recruitment, your policies and your processes. Things like making sure that your access routes are clear of seating and clutter. Simple things that make a huge difference. But of course, I said seating clear of access routes, but of course there needs to be seating somewhere as well. That's really important. But these quick wins that you can make, that will make a huge difference to people. It's not always about just installing a really expensive piece of equipment.
Emily Yates: It's understanding those holistic changes that you can make that will make a huge difference. And the toolkit covers so many different sections. It provides some information about the purple pound. So the spending power of disabled people in their households, which is worth, I think, 274,000,000,000 pounds per year to UK businesses alone. So that's what you're missing out on if you're not physically or digitally accessible. And then the toolkit also covers the different impairments and medical conditions that you might need to know about how to best provide that inclusive welcome that can often not cost anything at all. It's just about changing your mindset.
Emily Yates: And then we talk about the importance of inclusive marketing, changes in the built environment, employing more inclusively, and then the next steps to kind of continue the all encompassing journey that can never really be finished, but will hopefully provide people with stand them in good stead for a future that's a bit more accessible.
Kelly Molson: I guess that goes for the toolkit as well. This is going to be something that is never finished too, because it's always going to change and evolve depending on what the needs and requirements are. How was it created in the first place? What was the process that you had to go through? Because this is, know what you've just described. I mean, the resource is phenomenal, it's vast, the things that you can understand and go through with this documentation. So that in itself will have been a mammoth task to have pulled together. How did you work with VisitBritain to do that?
Emily Yates: So the first thing that was quite important was thinking about what each of the resources were going to look like. So what I've just gone through there is the more holistic toolkit, the main piece, if you like. But in addition to that, we've also got documents that have 20 top tips for businesses. We've got action checklists where people can almost say, “Right, I'm going to make sure I've provided something in particular for an assistance dog, for example”, and put a timeline of when they're going to do that, give ownership to a certain member of staff, of appeasing that checklist, and then carry on that way. So there's also some action checklists and there's also some technical guidance as an appendix as well.
Emily Yates: So the first thing was really thinking about what information do we want to provide and how are we going to segregate that information, so it isn't awfully overwhelming and is actually actionable. And then the second thing was making sure, and probably the most important thing was making sure that we'd co-produced this information and consulted with the correct people. So we've consulted with over 30 disability charities and disabled people's organisations, also trade associations as well as independent reviewers. So everybody from the Business Disability Forum who gave us some great advice in terms of inclusive employment, to self catering trade associations, to museum trade associations, theme parks and things like that, there's so many people that got involved with this and gave us some advice.
Emily Yates: And also we wanted to make sure that the information wasn't just actionable, but it was really relevant as well. So we've also created lots of different case studies within the toolkit. So whether that's more independent small farms who've done something amazing in terms of their volunteering and how that can be more inclusive to a local pier, for example, that's made something that, let's face it, in the built environment, isn't all that accessible sometimes. They've made changes to help that out.
Emily Yates: We've added those case studies. So as you're reading through the information and learning lots, you're hopefully able to also read something that's quite relevant, that almost sparks that interest and that aspiration and gives you an opportunity to think, “Okay, I can do that. This might be who I might get in touch with and this might be the action I take.”
Kelly Molson: Yeah, I love that. The case studies make it so relatable to different scales of organisation. And I think what I found was it was quite inspiring, actually, that, okay, it's a pier. There's always going to be some challenges with accessibility. However, we have gone to these efforts to do these things. So you might have a checklist of 30 things you might be able to cover off, 20 of them, ten of them you're never going to be able to do. But to be able to read and go, “There's still so much that I can do. Even though I don't have something that's all 30, I can still do these things and make it significantly better for a much wider range of people that will be able to come and use these facilities now.”
Emily Yates: Absolutely, 100%. And we wanted to make sure that people really got that feeling and they were encouraged by the information rather than overwhelmed by it. And I think one thing that's also really important is that, let's be honest, when it comes to accessibility, we all think about wheelchair users and we all think about step free access, which is great for me as a wheelchair user. But actually it's not always about providing step free access or installing that really expensive lift. How can you think about the colour palettes that you're using to make sure that there's enough tonal contrast for somebody who's visually impaired, but it also provides an appropriate sensory environment for somebody who's neurodivergent? These are things that are so often forgotten or put down the priority list.
Emily Yates: And these are the things that we wanted to say, "Okay, you can do these in a way that doesn't break the bank, that doesn't take all the time, but makes all the difference to a certain group of people."
Kelly Molson: Do you think that they are harder to associate with because you can't see them? I mean, with the wheelchair it's a very obvious. You can see that person has a disability, you can see that they will need something very specific from you to be able to use your platform. But with some of these other things, you just can't see that trigger. So you don't think to think about it?
Emily Yates: Absolutely. Yeah. I think one of the really pivotal points that we have in the inclusive design industry now is thinking about things that are less visible. So somebody who has dementia, for example, that might find really dark flooring looking like a black hole and might really struggle to go into that museum environment that's particularly dark. Thinking about that is just as important as how wide your doorways are. But as you've very rightly said, are so often not thought about or not correctly understood is probably the more correct way of saying it.
Kelly Molson: You mentioned earlier about some monetary value for organisations to do this, but why is this such a vital resource from someone like you who has lived experience of this as well? Why is this so vital?
Emily Yates: I think it's really vital because it's specific. First of all, so we've created something specific to people within that tourism travel attractions industry. In fact, we've focused specifically on accommodations, attractions, food and beverage and events. There are four main areas that we focused on. So what I really like about it is you read through as somebody who works in one of those businesses and everything is relevant to what you do, and I think that's really important. So often you look at accessibility resources and they've tried to cater to a huge audience and actually made a bit less relevance by doing so. I think that makes it really vital and a really innovative resource actually. By doing so, I think another thing is it allows you to focus on that end to end journey in its entirety.
Emily Yates: So if you feel like you're doing really well in the accessibility that you offer your customers, for example. But you want to focus now more internally on, "Okay, what's my culture look like? How inclusive can I be as an employer? What about my marketing? What about my website? I focused on the built environment, but what about what the information I'm putting out there?" All of that information is in there as well. So regardless of where you are on that accessibility journey, I'd like to think that there's something for you within that toolkit.
Kelly Molson: There absolutely is as well. You definitely need to go and download it. So we're going to put a link directly to it in the show notes for the show as well. So don't worry about rent searching for it, just go to the show notes. You will find it very easily. How is it going to evolve? Because we said this is not a static thing. It's out there now. Needs requirements are going to change, policies are going to change. What does the roadmap for it look like for the next kind of couple of years, five years down the line?
Emily Yates: So I'm doing quite a lot of work with Ross at the moment to think about how we're making sure that people are aware of it and they know exactly how to use it as a tool. Because, of course, with anything like this, it's all well and good writing it, but really it's only as successful as its uses. So we've gone already to the AA and the VisitEngland assessors who go into different hotels and restaurants and review these, and we've made sure that they're aware of the toolkit. We've given them a bit of a presentation and a few exercises on how to use it. We're going to do similar with visitor attractions as well. And then Mima. We've got a bit of a contract with VisitEngland for the next couple of years that focuses on providing updates to this toolkit.
Emily Yates: So we will be going out and training different people, but also we really want people to write into us and give us feedback and tell us where they think certain improvements could be made or if they've got a great case study of something that's only happened a couple of months ago. All these things, we want to hear about them so we can make sure that it continues to be an updated, best in class resource.
Kelly Molson: Oh, that's good. I love that little shout out. Right, if anyone's listening and something good has happened, you've got something to shout about. You know how to contact Emily. We'll put a link to Emily's LinkedIn profile on here so you can give her a shout out and about. And what do you hope that it's going to achieve? What do you hope that this will bring?
Emily Yates: Oh, that's a great question. I think the number one thing I hope, and this is probably quite a personal, selfish plea, is that I hope it encourages businesses to be honest about where they are in their journey. By that, I mean it is no good somebody calling you up and saying, "Hi there. Do you provide step free access and accessible parking?" And you going, "Oh, yes, we do. That's absolutely fine." And somebody like me getting there, and there's five steps up to the front door. There's nothing heroic about not being honest about where you are in your journey. It just complicates matters.
Emily Yates: So what I would really love businesses to have the confidence to do is have a statement on their website that details exactly where they are on that journey, is really honest about the things that they've done well, the things that they're still improving, and therefore gives disabled people, older people with access requirements in general, that autonomy to be able to make the decision for themselves, whether this place is suitable for their needs or not. And I think if we can master that and if businesses can do that would be an incredible thing for the industry in general.
Emily Yates: And it puts, as I say, that autonomy back on disabled people, back on the audience to say, "Right, this is great, I'm going to go here, I'm going to tell all my friends about it, and this could be a great case study for this business to learn a little bit more from, et cetera."
Kelly Molson: That is such an important message, isn't it? The message of honesty? Because that seems like a really simple thing to do. Okay, look, none of us are perfect. None of us are perfect. We all have a long way to go to make things as accessible as they need to be. However, this is where we're at. We've got this. We're back to our checklist again, aren't we? This is our 30 step checklist. We've got ten of those knocked off already. And these are the things that we're doing. This is what we are hoping to achieve, and this is the time frame we're looking to achieve them. And I've just been through this process with the fire safety regulations that were brought out last October. So making sure that I've got. Yep, okay. I've got 90% of those. There's 10% that need to be looked at.
Kelly Molson: This is what we're going to do. And this is when we're going to do it by. It's exactly the same message, isn't it?
Emily Yates: Exactly.
Kelly Molson: Do you not see that from many kind of tourism and attraction organisations then? Do you find that is quite a challenge for them, to be quite honest about where they're at?
Emily Yates: I still see being very honest with you, I still see quite a lot of fear surrounding disability and accessibility and this real desire to do the right thing. All of this is coming from a good place. There's a real desire to do the right thing, but as you said right at the very beginning, no idea of where to start. And I think sometimes it's very easy to over promise and under deliver, and that is the worst thing that you can do. Equally what I want to say to caveat all of this is if you offer something that's amazing, please shout about it, please tell people about it. Because equally outside of the coin, I see actually museums in particular that for all of these amazing things, be as a sell tours, touch tours, tack tile objects, nobody has clue that they even exist. So I’m asking really for both things.
Kelly Molson: Balance.
Emily Yates: Absolutely. Be honest about what you don't have. Celebrate what you do.
Kelly Molson: Another great message, Emily. Okay, what are your top tips? Like I said, this is lived experience for you. What are your top tips around disability awareness? What would you shout out and say these are the things that you need to be looking at.
Emily Yates: Okay, first thing, it's quite a philosophical point, but it's quite an important one. I think we need to change our mindset when it comes to accessibility and inclusive designs, especially in the disability space, because each and every one of us at some point in our lives will have experience of disability. Hopefully it's just through old age, but it may be through injury, through something else. And it's important to think about not disabled people and nondisabled people, but disabled people and not yet disabled people. And I think if we changed our mindset around that, suddenly there'd be a lot more movement when it comes to accessibility and inclusive design. So I think that would be my one top tip, my one plea, if you like. I think the second one is to think bigger than wheelchair users. Start thinking about how to design for neurodiversity.
Emily Yates: Start reading documents such as the new PaAS 6463, design for the mind. If you are, for example, a contractor or a designer working in these kind of spaces, that's really important too. And I think wherever possible, bring lived experience into your work. If you are working in a gallery and you've got this amazing new exhibition coming out in the next couple of years. Think about how you can represent deaf, disabled and neurodivergent people within that exhibition. Can you have a space where you have an access hub that has BSL, tactile maps, portable stools that people can take round with them? And even more so, can you have part of the exhibition where some of your interpretations, some of your objects are to do with deaf, disabled, neurodivergent creators? That would be incredible too.
Kelly Molson: So making sure it's woven through every part of that experience and not seen as an add on at the end.
Emily Yates: Absolutely that. Absolutely that.
Kelly Molson: Great tips. Thank you. Let's talk quickly about the podcast. So at Mima there's a podcast called Re:Design. Actually episode five does feature Ross. Again, he's the Accessibility and Inclusion Lead at VisitEngland, and he comes on and talks about how do you create a seamless customer experience. So again, this comes back to a lot of the points that we've covered today. I mean, great topic. Congratulations on starting the podcast. In the first place there, what are the hopes and aspirations for Mima? What are they looking to achieve by putting this podcast out there?
Emily Yates: I think what we're hoping for is that multidisciplinary design, human centred design, inclusive design, really gets its place on the map a little bit more because it's something that, especially inclusive design, it's spoken about a know you will read articles a lot, I'm sure, Kelly, that mention it and the importance of it. But there's a difference between mentioning it and knowing what to do with it and actually speaking to people that have done it. And I think that's what we're trying to do, really pull out some pearls of wisdom from different individuals that have gone through different scenarios, whether they've travelled a lot for their work, whether they've focused on inclusive internal culture change as one of our episodes focuses on, whether they focus specifically on the importance of inclusion within aviation, whether they're looking at a seamless visitor experience.
Emily Yates: We want to hear from people that have experienced that and been through it, and are able to then give a bit of advice to people that want to learn more about a subject that everybody should at least have a bit of a basic understanding of.
Kelly Molson: Amazing. Right. We will link to that podcast as well. So that is definitely one for you to go over and subscribe to. Emily, it's been so good to have you on today, and I know that we've had to keep this one short because everyone's got appointments that they need to get to. But this is such a key topic.
Kelly Molson: My aspiration is that everybody that listens to this episode goes and downloads that accessibility toolkit and shares it with their network as well. Please. So that's a personal plea from me to you listeners. Go and download it and please give it a little share because it needs to get out to as many different people as possible, as many organisations that it is relevant for as possible. What about a book that you love, that you'd like to share with us today? Emily, I'm intrigued if you've gone on topic or not.
Emily Yates: I think I have gone on topic about this. Sorry if I've been a bit one dimensional.
Kelly Molson: Not at all.
Emily Yates: My book of choice is one that I read recently and one, funnily enough, that I'm running a bit of an internal workshop on at Mima in a couple of weeks. We've started a bit of an inclusive book club and it's called the View From Down Here by Lucy Webster. Lucy is an amazing journalist. She's disabled. She used to work for the BBC before going freelance, and she writes this incredible memoir about what it's like growing up disabled, but really importantly as a disabled woman.
Emily Yates: And she talks about so many different scenarios from trying to get into a nightclub on a Saturday night when the difficulty of doing so in terms of the gaze that you so often experience as a woman, but as a disabled woman as well, her thoughts on motherhood and how complex and nuanced that is as somebody who's disabled, friendships, professional lives, all of these different things. And I think it's just such an incredibly powerful, confident, but also very vulnerable account of the realism of what it's really like. And the thing that it made me realise, or the thing that it made me remember, should I say, is that we're not going to solve accessibility by just making sure that all of our train stations are step free. It's much more holistic and nuanced and complex than that.
Emily Yates: And it's about human nature and human design and all those holistic things that we so rarely think about. And I would just urge everybody to read it. It's angry, it's sad, it's beautiful. It's just a wonderful book.
Kelly Molson: Wow. What a book. I feel quite moved by just hearing your account of it, let alone reading it. Right, that's going top of the list. Listeners, if you would like to win a copy of that book, which, I mean, let's face it sounds like everybody needs to read that anyway, so do throw your hat into the ring for this one. If you head over to our Twitter account and you retweet this episode announcement with the words I want Emily's book, then you will be in a chance to win it. But aside from that, go and buy it and absolutely head over to the show notes download the VisitBritain Accessible and Inclusive Tourism Toolkit for Businesses. You will not be disappointed, I can assure you of that. Emily, it's been brilliant to have you on today. Thank you. I'm sorry it's short and sweet.
Kelly Molson: I'm sorry that you've got to dash off to an appointment and you're leaving me, but it's been so amazing to chat. I would love for you to come on and talk about some of the case studies, maybe with some of your clients at some point, because I think that would be a really interesting discussion to talk through some of the processes and the steps that they went through and just showcase that this is for everybody. This really is for everybody.
Emily Yates: I would absolutely love that. Thank you. We're working with the National Railway Museum at the moment on their Vision 2025 master plan. So maybe when that's starting to wrap up next year, maybe that would be an amazing opportunity to talk about that.
Kelly Molson: I think that would be brilliant. I'd love that. All right. Thank you ever so much.
Emily Yates: Emily thank you, Kelly, thank you so much.
Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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Improving inclusivity at Kew Gardens, with Julia Willison
24 jan· Skip the Queue
Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Kelly Molson, Founder of Rubber Cheese.

Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.

If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast.
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Competition ends on 29th March 2024. The winner will be contacted via Twitter.
Show references:
https://www.kew.org/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/julia-willison-22347a10/
Julia Willison is Head of Learning and Participation for the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew. She is passionate about engaging people – young and old and from all walks of life - in learning about the importance of plants and fungi and the need for sustainable development. Julia is responsible for schools, communities and access, families and early years, outreach, youth and volunteers at Kew Gardens. She previously worked with botanic gardens internationally to advocate for and establish education programmes for the benefit of local communities and the environment.
Transcription:
Kelly Molson: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in or working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Kelly Molson.
On today’s episode I speak with Julia Willison, Head of Learning and Participation at Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew.
We discuss Kew’s inspiring manifesto - their 10 year strategy to end extinction crisis and protect nature. Julia shares with us the 5 key priorities, and we focus on Kew’s desire to improve inclusivity and what initiatives have been formed to support the organisation in doing this.
If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue.
Kelly Molson: Julia, it's really lovely to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for joining me.
Julia Willison: My pleasure, Kelly. Thank you for inviting me.
Kelly Molson: So we're recording this right at the beginning of January. It's the 9 January that we're recording it. So icebreakers have got a new year's resolution theme because I thought we should talk about this. I want to know, do you set them? If so, what have you set yourself for this year?
Julia Willison: I do tend to set them in my own mind. I don't often share them, but I do set them. And this year I've set the resolution. I want to start learning to play the piano and I've actually had my first lesson. I'm really pleased with that.
Kelly Molson: I love this. So we just had a little chat about this off air, because that was one of the other icebreaker questions I was going to ask you is, what's the one thing that you've always wanted to learn? And then we had this conversation and you're doing it already, and I was like, "Oh, this is great." So you've had your first lesson and how did it go?
Julia Willison: Well, I found myself apologising to the teacher profusely because of my lack of ability to play the piano, but it went really well and he was absolutely delightful, very supportive, and I learned quite a lot in the first lesson, so I'm looking forward to the second lesson now. I've got a lot start playing and practising every day, which I'm enjoying doing.
Kelly Molson: That's the thing about learning something new is that you've got to make it a habit, haven't you? So you need to kind of. This is the thing that I did about the gym, is that I had to diarize it, so I had to make sure that it was like in red in my diary, immovable. At the same time, on those days, that I could go so that you could do it. Are you going to do that with your lessons and your training?
Julia Willison: Well, the lessons obviously will have to be in my calendar, but I have almost crossed the threshold where I made a decision to play the piano. I've got a long term goal that in maybe ten years time, I'll be able to play in a group or something like this. So I'm really committed to wanting to learn. So we'll see. You have to revisit this space. Maybe in five years time. See if I'm still doing it.
Kelly Molson: Right. I'm popping you on the list for five years to make sure that I check in with you, that you've achieved your goals. Okay. What is the worst thing that you've ever eaten or drunk?
Julia Willison: Well, eaten for me is mussels, because I'm allergic to them.
Kelly Molson: Oh, wow.
Julia Willison: I only learned that through, obviously, eating mussels and even just a small piece just made me incredibly sick. Drinking advocaat. How do you say it. Advocaat?
Kelly Molson: Is that what goes into snowballs?
Julia Willison: Yes. I can't think of anything worse actually.
Kelly Molson: I love snowballs. I had one over Christmas.
Julia Willison: You can have mine.
Kelly Molson: I'll have your mussels. And your advocaat. What a mixture. And probably not at the same time either.
Julia Willison: No.
Kelly Molson: Yeah. My friends did a Christmas party and we had a snowball and it was, "This is so retro." I can remember my grandparents drinking these when I was a child. I remember if you ever come to my house for a Christmas party that you are not to have snowballs.
Julia Willison: I'll bring my own, Kelly.
Kelly Molson: Okay. Right. What's your unpopular opinion, Julia?
Julia Willison: What I do feel, I suppose, strongly about is that, and I arrived at this opinion after talking to my children, after I had done this. And it says, I don't think that people should post pictures of their children and friends on social media without their consent.
Kelly Molson: Yes. Yeah. This is an interesting one, isn't? Oh, ok. And actually, at what point do you ask their consent? Because I post pictures of my daughter. She might not be comfortable with me, she might not be happy with me, her face being over my Twitter account or my Instagram account. So, yeah, I guess at some point we'll have that conversation. If she says no, that's it. No more pictures go up.
Julia Willison: Oh, sad. And the thing is, you can't take down the ones that you've already put up, can you?
Kelly Molson: No. Well, I guess you can go back and delete them from an Instagram account or delete them from your Twitter account. So you could go back and delete, but then they're out there, so that doesn't mean that they're not elsewhere in the ether.
Julia Willison: Interesting.
Kelly Molson: It is interesting, yeah. But I think you're right, I think. Absolutely, for other people. I've definitely had this conversation with a friend of mine about. We've been out together with our children and we've both taken pictures and she's actually asked my permission if she can post the pictures on her social media, but her platforms are quite. Her Instagram is a private Instagram account, for example, so she's happy to post pictures of her daughter on that, but she's not happy for other people to post those pictures if they're not private account. It is a huge debate, isn't it? Well, it'll be interesting to see what people think. How do you feel about this?
Kelly Molson: People on Twitter, which is where we do a lot of our talking about this podcast, how do you feel about posting pictures of your children or your friends and your family on social media without having their consent? Let us know. Could start a little Twitter debate there.
Julia Willison: I'd be interested to read it.
Kelly Molson: Right, Julia, tell us about your role at Kew and what a typical day looks like for you.
Julia Willison: So, I'm Head of Learning and Participation at Kew Gardens and what I'm responsible for is providing leadership in this particular area at Kew and wanting to position Kew as a centre for excellence in plant and fungal science education. And under my remit comes formal learning. That's all the schools programmes and teacher training. So we've got about 90,000 school pupils that come on site each year and we engage with about 200,000 online. We have a youth programme which is growing. There's a lot of demand there for young people to get involved environmentally as well. Families, in early years, we run programmes for families, but up to seven year olds, specific sessions.
Julia Willison: We run community engagement, and that includes community horticulture. I'm responsible for the access programmes across the site as well. That's for people who may have sensory needs or different access needs. We have a national outreach learning programme and then slight anomaly is that the volunteers also sit with me. So we've got 800 volunteers across Kew Gardens and Wakehurst, and the central function of that sits with my remit. So looking at some of the strategies around what we're doing with volunteers and diversifying our volunteers, et cetera, that's my remit.
Kelly Molson: They’re quite a bit.
Julia Willison: Yeah. No, it's fantastic. I'm very lucky. And there's no one typical day, but you can imagine. Well, I get going with a cup of coffee every day and sometimes I'll spend one day a week working from home.
Julia Willison: But the rest of the time, I like to be on site. Kew has got to be one of the most beautiful locations to work. Kew has got to be one of the most beautiful locations to work. I am so lucky. I know that.
Julia Willison: And I've probably got the best office in Kew. If you come and visit Kelly, you'll see that the office I have looks out over the Palm House of Kew, which is the most iconic glass house. It was a glass house that was built between 1844 and 48 and it houses the tropical plants, so it is just the most amazing place to work. I attend a lot of meetings, as you can imagine, with my teams and staff across the organisation about operations sometimes, and strategy and new and exciting projects that we're looking at what we can do. I sit on cross organisational steering groups and committees that focus on public programmes.
Julia Willison: We have a strong focus on equality, diversity and inclusion across the organisation. And safeguarding. Well, I still am the designated safeguarding lead for Kew, so I'm involved in that still. And I also lead the steering group for Kew on the outreach strategy and the schools learning strategy. And then, as well, I often work on preparing project proposals, because funding is a major issue for our organisation, and so funding and reporting and then talking to potential donors. So that's my sort of typical day, really.
Kelly Molson: I feel quite privileged that I get to speak to so many incredible women that have these hugely varied roles and do so much in a day. Very capable people that I get to speak to. It's quite humbling. We're going to talk quite a lot today about a manifesto that Kew implemented. I'm just going to take you back. So I think it was in March 2021, Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew launched a ten year strategy to end extinction crisis and protect nature. And it's a really bold and incredibly inspiring manifesto. I'm just going to read out the ethos of it.
Kelly Molson: So, the mission of Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew is to understand and protect plants and fungi for the well being of people and the future of all life on earth. Our aspiration is to end the extinction crisis and to help create a world where nature is protected, valued by all and managed sustainably. So this was back in 2021. How has the manifesto been implemented within the organisation? How did it get created in the first place, and how does that kind of get explained and put into practise?
Julia Willison: Good question. We started in the pandemic, looking at the need to build a new strategy, because our older strategy was coming to the end, and over the years has been a building of staff in Kew, talking about wanting to see more urgency in the work that we do, or to describe it in a more urgent terms, what we're trying to do at Kew. And so the pandemic, while it was a terrible time, it was a time that Kew took to step back and look at the bigger picture and then come together around this urgency of climate change and biodiversity loss. And there was a lot of consultation, a lot of iterations of the strategy that went out to staff to feed into this.
Julia Willison: It was a significant job, and there was a team, a small team of people that were working on it, taking the consultation back in centrally. And then what emerged through the consultation were five key priorities that we then agreed, or was agreed then for the next ten years. And that was agreed then by the executive board and signed off by the board of trustees. I'll mention the five priorities, and I can give a few bits of examples of some of the work we do around those. The first priority is deliver science based knowledge and solutions to protect biodiversity and use natural resources sustainably. Kew is primarily a scientific and horticultural organisation, and we struggle sometimes that many people see Kew Gardens as the gardens and don't see the science behind the gardens.
Julia Willison: The gardens are essential and they contain precious plant collections. There is also science and research behind that. We've got over 400 scientists and about 150 horticulturalists. And so it's the bedrock accused contribution to ending biodiversity and maintaining sort of healthy ecosystems. So there are lots of examples that I could give. People probably don't know this. We have a resource centre in Madagascar, scientific resource centre, and scientists there are working with the rural Malagasy people on food security and particularly on conserving yams that are native to Madagascar. We work in over 120 countries, working with partners in Ethiopia to reduce biodiversity loss. The Ethiopian economy depends very much on coffee, and something like 25% of the population rely directly or indirectly on coffee for their livelihood. And so Kew is working with partners to maintain traditional forest based areas where coffee grows natively.
Julia Willison: And that is proving vital for sustainability, for livelihoods and also for biodiversity. Close to home. We have scientists here at Kew working on the chemistry of nectar and pollen, because many bee species in the UK, there are around 240 different species of bees in the UK. So honey bees are just one species. There's lots of different bumblebees, lots of different native bee species, and they're under threat because of climate change from disease and parasites. So what scientists here are identifying plants that have compounds in the nectar and pollen that could help bees themselves manage their own diseases more sustainably. So that's an important area of research. Kew is also, as part of manifesto, we're digitising our collections. We’ve got a wrap quarter a way through digitising 8.25 million preserved plants and fungal specimens. So it's an enormous task. And 200,000 botanical illustrations. What else we're doing?
Julia Willison: We have a sister site. I don't know if you know this, Kelly. We have a sister site at Wakehurst. It's our wild botanic garden in West Sussex and it's a site of excellence, really, in conservation and science. It's home to the Millennium Seed Bank, where we've banked something like 2.4 billion seeds from more than 40,000 plant species. And so there's the project being run at Wakehurst called Nature Unlocked, and that's using the landscape of Wakehurst, which is about two kilometres squared, as a living laboratory. And the idea is to collect high quality scientific evidence of the value of biodiversity in the soil as well as in the landscape. This evidence to inform land management policies and practises, so that can then key develop. Decision makers can then use this evidence to make informed decisions about what they do around the land.
Kelly Molson: That's just one point.
Julia Willison: I'll be quicker with the other.
Kelly Molson: Please feel free to share. Don't hold back. But it's quite mind blowing, isn't it, how much that you do that people just aren't aware of?
Julia Willison: Yeah, this is just a very small snapshot. I mean, I could have taken any one of hundreds of examples of what scientists here at Kew are doing. The second priority is inspire people to protect the natural world, and that really is threaded through all our public engagement work. And that's going from our festivals, our exhibitions, all the interpretive panels we do, the website, our social media, all the learning and participation programmes we do. So we use this as a lens to look through and to make sure that the work we're doing is all checking ourselves, that we are inspiring people to protect the natural world. I mentioned earlier we have a national outreach programme and this programme is inspiring communities to take action for biodiversity, specifically through transforming their local spaces with UK native plants.
Julia Willison: So community groups we know will grow other plants, but we also encourage them to focus also on UK native plants as well. Another plan in the manifesto is to create a carbon garden, and that's to communicate stories around how carbon is captured in plants and soil, and how we use this to mitigate climate change, for example, through planting trees and also looking at different carbon related services, such as biofuels. And we have the plans for the garden. It's in planning permission. It's gone for planning permission at the moment and we're waiting to hear. And as soon as we hear, it'll probably take us about a year or so to build the garden, but we'll use it then very much for learning and communicating about the importance of carbon, so people know. So that's priority two.
Julia Willison: Priority three is train the next generation of experts, new scientists and horticultural is critical to the future of life on earth. And so Kew has accelerated its work in this. And we offer three month PhD placements for anybody across the UK who's doing a PhD. Part of their PhD often includes a placement. So we offer those placements at Kew and we're very keen to attract PhD students. We also are working in partnership with a couple of universities, Queen Mary, University of London and the Royal Holloway, University of London, to run in partnership master's courses. MSc courses. And we've got three courses that we run. MSc in biodiversity and conservation, an MSc in plant and fungal taxonomy, diversity and conservation. And then the newest MSc is on global health, food security, sustainability and biodiversity.
Kelly Molson: I can imagine that the world that we're in now, there's actually a lot more demand for those courses as well. I imagine that they're oversubscribed multiple times.
Julia Willison: Yes. And they're open to international students, so we get quite a lot of international students coming. So that's really good. We had 60 students starting this year on the courses, but on a master's course, taking 20 students, it's quite an intense course. And I know that Kew has, like you say, there's a demand to study further in this area, and so there are still developing the possibility of new courses with universities. That's good.
Julia Willison: But one of the things for my remit that I'm very keen about is that there's a pathway and that Kew considers its pathway from very early years, attracting kids to become very interested in nature, and then going through and providing school programmes that then encourage children to then take science as a possible career choice, or be informed about science, which is one of the reasons why we launched the Endeavour Online programme to make our resources that focus on educational resources that focus on Kew, science and horticulture, but make them available to schools across the UK.
Kelly Molson: That's phenomenal. And that's a lot of the things that we're going to talk about today. What point are we at? We've done point 3.
Julia Willison: Okay. So extend our reach.
Kelly Molson: Extend reach. That's right. Point 4.
Julia Willison: That's about cubing a go to place for anyone and everyone to explore the importance of plants and fungi and how they add value to our lives. And we're working hard to expand our digital resources to make sure that we can engage with as many people as possible. But we also recognise that there are large numbers of the population that would love to visit Kew or either have never heard about us or don't see Kew as a place for them. So we've set down a target to increase tenfold the number of visitors from underrepresented communities to the gardens. And one of the ways that we've done this straight away is to introduce a one pound ticket for people who were on universal credit or pension credit, and that's to remove the economic barrier to visiting.
Julia Willison: To date, around 50 - 60,000 people have taken advantage of the initiative in 18 months. However, we have a very ambitious director and he feels that we should be able to dial this up to about 100,000 per year. So that requires us then to go out specifically targeting people who are on universal credit and pension credit and say, "Look, we want you to come to Kew." But on top of this, we also run a range of programmes specifically for people who face barriers to Kew. And that's not only economic, that could be social barriers, psychological or physical barriers. That's priority four, which I think we're going to go into more about some of that.
Kelly Molson: Three and four we're going to focus on.
Julia Willison: Yeah. So the fifth one is influencing national and international opinion and policy. So in order to do that, we need to encourage debate and shape decision making. And Kew works with a lot of policymakers. Kew is a large institution.
Julia Willison: We've got about 1400 staff that work at Kew and 800 volunteers. We have lots of different teams and departments. We do have a department that focuses specifically on working with government and policy makers. And the idea is to support them, to provide the evidence that Kew brings to the table so that people can make well informed decisions. One example is about Tropical Important Plant Areas, those TIPA for short. Kew is working with six countries across the globe and the idea is to work with partners in the countries to help them identify important plant areas so that these areas will then be conserved. That involves an enormous amount of negotiation, discussion, and to date there's three TIPAs that have already been established, so that's really important for conservation of those areas.
Julia Willison: And, of course, we work closely with Defra, that's our sponsoring department in the UK government, and they've recently asked you to take the leading role as a strategic science lead for a new institution, I suppose, that has been set up. It’s not a physical institution. It’s a consortium. It’s been called the Global Centre on Biodiversity for Climate. So what Kew will do is write the research strategy that will define the key themes for funding calls that will be given money, and then the projects that will then provide the evidence to feed into policies that will then help make decisions about the impact of biodiversity on climate and people's livelihoods. So that's a really significant thing that Kew's done.
Kelly Molson: This is such an eye opener for myself, having been a visitor to Kew, appreciated the beautiful gardens and the plants that you have there, but actually really having no idea about all of the things that happen in the background. So this is just like you say, the attraction is just one very small part of this huge organisation. There's so much that you do. I hope this is eye opening for people that are listening to this as well, because there's a lot going on here. The points from the manifesto, the key priorities for manifesto are, I mean, each one of them you could take and break down into a different podcast episode. What we're going to talk about is points three and four. We're going to focus on those today.
Kelly Molson: So point 3 was to train the next generation of experts, and point 4 was to extend our reach. We're going to focus on them because there's a huge desire at Kew to improve inclusivity, and so we're going to kind of break down what is happening within those points to actually help support do that. So you said that one of the key changes that Kew has committed to achieving by 2030, I think this is to increase tenfold the number of visitors from the presently underrepresented communities to the gardens. And obviously the gardens facilitate the start of that learning journey. Right. That it's exposing people to, I guess, a world that they might not be familiar with, plants that they definitely won't be familiar with, or even just certain job roles that they might not have thought was for them.
Kelly Molson: How do you begin to change the kind of views and attitudes from the general public who don't think that Kew is for them, a place for them in the first place?
Julia Willison: Well, our aim is to break down that perception. So I think one of the things that has happened to be able to start on this journey is an organisational commitment to include everyone and bringing everybody on board, that we are really intent, we really want to do this. So that's involved training our visitor facing staff and our volunteers so that they provide a warm welcome to anyone, regardless of their background. We've trained our staff in accessibility and safeguarding and then diversity and inclusion. And this year we will roll out more diversity and inclusion training to staff across all areas of the organisation. So when people come here, it's making sure that they feel safe and they feel represented in the gardens. But just providing a welcome is not going to be sufficient.
Julia Willison: We do need to reach out and connect with different communities to tell them that Kew exists. We have people visiting Kew from our local boroughs that have never heard of us, which is extraordinary, really. So we really try and encourage them to visit. So we have teams of staff who, in different teams, will visit the different groups and they'll run workshops with the groups at their venues so that groups can find out about Kew before they visit. They realise that the people that come to visit them are really quite friendly and really excited about them coming to Kew. And also, people have said that Kew is a very large place when you come here. I mean, people come and visit Kew, they come for a day, but you never see everything at Kew for a day.
Julia Willison: So people feel that it can be a bit intimidating, especially if they've not visited before. So when we bring people on site for the first time, when we've made connections with community groups or other teams, what we do is we'll offer a programme or a tour, so that when they come to visit us, that they make them feel comfortable about returning on their own.
Kelly Molson: Sure. So it gives them that level of familiarity by doing the tour that they can then come back and explore. They can do that again, or they could go and explore the different areas that were particularly appealing to them.
Julia Willison: Yeah. So we have all sorts of different programmes and we have a community access scheme as well as the one pound ticket. We have community access scheme. So any groups that provide services to people who face barriers from visiting Kew, which I said earlier, sensory, psychological, social barriers, they can join our community access scheme and they can get 60 tickets for 36 pounds. So that works out about 60 pence a ticket and they can always top up as they go along. And then as part of the scheme, they all receive a newsletter and that informs them about the community activities that we run. So that's another way of connecting groups to feel that Kew is a place for them to come and visit.
Kelly Molson: That's lovely. I was going to ask about the community access scheme and what initiatives have been formed to kind of support the organisations to do that, because I guess it's one thing the welcome is great, right. But that means that people have to come and get the welcome. So there's so much outreach that has to be done to bring the people to you in the first place. So the community access scheme, what kind of organisations would that be relevant for?
Julia Willison: All sorts. We have about 350 members on our access scheme. When I first started at Kew, most of those groups, there were fewer number of groups, but most of those groups were, I would say, for third age people, different groups, but mainly servicing older people. Now we've got all sorts of groups, so we've got LGBT+ groups, we have deaf groups, asian women's groups. We have a whole different range of groups that see Kew as a place that they could join and come and bring with their members. And one of the things that we do run is continuing professional development training for group leaders, specifically for those leaders, so that they then feel confident to come to Kew with their groups on their own and will provide resources for them to use in the landscapes and enjoy with Kew.
Kelly Molson: And that adds to that, I guess, like what you were saying earlier about, you want this to be the start of the journey. You need it to be the start of the journey for those groups as well, don't. You don't want to encourage them to come along once and that's like a box that they've ticked. They've done Kew. You want them to come back and keep reengaging with the environment there. So that's brilliant to then be able to train those leaders to take that bit on themselves.
Julia Willison: I was just to say, a few years ago, we started a community open week, which is a free week for community groups, any community groups across London. In fact, some groups come from further afield, but we put on a range of workshops and tours during that week for groups to come and just experience Kew and the idea is, if we can, is to try and encourage them to sign up to the access scheme and continue, as you say, the journey and come back and find out more.
Kelly Molson: I guess that's the community access scheme. And obviously you've got kind of partnerships going ongoing with kind of local community. What about national community groups? So how do you kind of expand your remit into the wider audience of people that aren't located near Kew?
Julia Willison: Yeah. That's a good question because that costs money, doesn't it, for them to come to Kew. So we have had people come from Birmingham and people can join. We've initially contained it within the M25, so a lot of people coming within the M25, but we've just removed that barrier now, I mean, it didn't need to be there. And we have seen some people, some groups coming from outside. We don't have bursaries to be able to provide, sadly, to groups to come to Kew. They are, of course, very welcome. I think one of the things is that we've just brought somebody on board this year who is doing some more community outreach to going out and trying to connect with new groups to visit Kew and part of that will involve producing some marketing materials that can then travel further than just our confines.
Julia Willison: So we'll see. We may then receive other groups in from much further afield, which would be great. And also Wakehurst, our sister site, has set up a community access scheme as well, so they will hopefully then encourage those organisations and groups in further south of London.
Kelly Molson: Amazing. How is Kew helping to remove barriers and improve access to nature for children and families, both kind of on site and off site?
Julia Willison: We've been running an early years programme since about 2018. Before that, we had a family programme and we've made connections with children's centres in our local boroughs. Every borough, every county in the UK will have a children's centre or multiple children's centres. And the aim of the children's centres is to try and help those families that may slip through the net to be able to ensure that they don't. And so what we have done is we have a recent project which is to work with children's centres in London and we're working in five boroughs with different about ten children's centres. And the team is going to the children's centres running nature based play sessions in the children's centres. And then over the summer, we invite the families to come to Kew. We give them funding to do that.
Julia Willison: We refund their travel, we run activities on site and then later in the year, we've been running training sessions specifically for the children's centre leaders so that they can then take this work forward when Kew has to step back from going to the children's centres. And we've got this project running for about three or four years now, which is great. But on top of this, we also run on site sessions for early years and half of them are paid for sessions for those families that can afford to pay for earlier sessions. And then the money that we use from that, we then subsidise those families from children's centres, community groups that can't afford to pay. So we try and get a balance, because we don't ourselves have an endless pot of money and we're constantly looking for funding to try and support this work.
Kelly Molson: It's really hard, isn't it, to get that balance right. There is a commercial aspect here, right. You have to make money to be able to do all of these incredible projects and initiatives that you have, but you also need the funding to be able to support the incredible initiatives that you're running, to be able to allow everybody access to it. So it's like a vicious circle. What about schools outreach? How are you kind of broadening your reach to engage all schools? And how does that become more inclusive against the manifesto?
Julia Willison: So we've been very intent on saying that we want to extend our reach to embrace all schools, sort of all schools in different areas, but also, at the moment, we have about 60, 70. Well, it's now changed to 60% of pupils that come on site are from primary schools. We want to increase the number of secondary school pupils that we engage with. Children make career decisions around their GCSEs and their A levels, and many children from certain schools from more deprived areas will go for general science rather than triple science. And all the research shows that if children choose triple science, they're more likely to do science at a levels. So looking to try and influence those children in their career choices is important for us. And that means that we want to increase the number of secondary schools that we engage with.
Julia Willison: And we also have an intent on increasing the number of schools that have higher pupil premium, because in London, pupil premium is, you probably know, is that those children who are generally on those children, on free school meals, the school will receive a bursary from the government to try and reduce the attainment gap between those children on free school meals and those children on not.
Julia Willison: So we have had bursaries, we don't have any at the moment, but we have had bursaries then to attract specifically those schools on much higher pupil premium, and we've shifted the dial on this and we have higher numbers of schools with higher pupil premium students and those schools, then we try to influence and think about science as a possible aspect that they can consider further in their careers. So, in planning permission at the moment, we're looking at building a new learning centre at Kew, which would be really exciting. And we're going through ecology reports at the moment before we can get the planning permission through.
Julia Willison: But part of the learning centre will include four science laboratories, and so pupils can come on site to Kew will be able to come on site to queue and do science experiments in the heart of a scientific organisation. And all pupils doing GCSE and A levels have to do practical science experiments. We know from all the research that teachers don't necessarily feel confident in teaching about plants. So this is something that Kew really can uniquely offer schools to come to Kew and bring their pupils and get hands on with plant and fungal science experiments.
Kelly Molson: Oh my goodness. That would be incredible.
Julia Willison: Yes. And also it will provide us with the facilities to be able to do CPD online as well. So that's something that we're really keen to do.
Kelly Molson: That's a really interesting side of this, is because I know that one of your goals is to engage with all schools. Now, all schools aren't local to Kew. My school definitely wasn't local to Kew. So how do you do that? How do you make that jump from engaging with local schools that can actually access the site? What can you do digitally that can engage with more schools and more people, regardless of location?
Julia Willison: And one of the reasons that we are committed to engaging with all schools is because Kew is a national institution and we are funded partly. About 28% of our funding comes from the government, so it's paid for by taxes by people all over the country. So our commitment is to make our resources as available as widely as possible. And so we have an online programme called Endeavour, and that's a bank of resources specifically for teachers on all sorts of different. It's strongly linked to the national curriculum, but all sorts of different activities that teachers can use then to teach about plant science and fungi. But it straddles the natural curriculum not only in science, but for the primary ages.
Julia Willison: It will also look at history, it will look at geography, et cetera, so that we can try and make our resources as relevant as possible to teachers.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, that is a phenomenal resource that maybe more teachers need to hear about that. I think I would have been really excited. I did do Science at school. I can remember. I'd have been really excited about doing something that was connected to Kew Gardens. There's quite a big buzz about that, you know what I mean? I don't know why there's a connection to that organisation that I think would have been really exciting to know that you were working on something that had been created by Kew.
Julia Willison: That's nice to hear that. We have a youth programme, which I'm very proud of. I think that the youth team is phenomenal, as are all the teams, but we run a youth explainer programme and that's on site, and young people come for a training programme every Saturday for six months and they go behind the scenes. They meet the horticulturist scientists and they learn communication skills. And what they do is we bring a game designer on site and they learn how to design their own game to play with the public about endangered plants or habitats. And the young people have to work together in groups and they produce this game. And then six months after, once they've finished their training, they then become explainers in the glass houses.
Julia Willison: And the public, actually, they love interacting with young people and they bring a real buzz about it. So that's been a very successful programme. And on the back of this, we've developed a young environmental leader award. And the idea is that young people will develop their project and they will evidence different dimensions of leadership through their project. So they'll keep a portfolio and they have to evidence how they've developed their leadership skills during this journey. And then we award them with a young environmental leader award, and that's something that we do in house. But then the possibility is then to scale that, to make that available to young people outside Kew as well.
Kelly Molson: That would be incredible, wouldn't it? Yeah, that would be a really special thing to be involved in. Okay, so we said earlier we're recording this. It's January 2024. Wow. How is Kew delivering against the manifesto after its first full two years?
Julia Willison: Well, Kew is nothing if not ambitious. There is a real strong commitment to ending the extinction crisis. I mean, we can't do this alone and we have to do it in partnership. But I would say that we're firmly on the way to achieving many of the deliverables in the manifesto. And there's a real. People have really bought into. The staff have really bought into the manifesto, and you see that through. We run a staff survey every year and ask for feedback about whether what people think about the manifesto, do they feel their work is contributing to delivering it? And we get very high scores on that consistently we have since the manifesto was published. One of the deliverables in there is to revision the Palm House that I sit opposite in my office.
Julia Willison: And we want that to become net zero and engage new generations with science and conservation work and make our data available to everyone. So we are moving towards that. And we've got some seed funding to be able to do this. I'd say that the bricks are in place and the foundations have been laid, and much of the work requires external funding and partnerships. But we have a vision, and I think people and organisations recognise what Kew's work is as vital. And I don't think that's overstating it, but that helps to open doors for support. So I think we're moving forwards, and I think there's a very positive feel about the work that we're doing. We're very fortunate.
Kelly Molson: Yeah, it sounds very positive. And like we said earlier, there's so much to cover in this, Julia, and thank you for coming on and just talking about a very small element of all of the incredible things that are actually happening at Kew. So we always end our podcast by asking our guests to recommend a book that you love, something that you love personally or something that's helped shaped your career in some way. What have you chosen for us today?
Julia Willison: Well, I chose a book that is a phenomenal book and by a woman who is phenomenal, and it is related to my work. But I chose the book because I think it is so inspirational. It's a book called Finding the Mother Tree: Discovering the Wisdom of the Forest by Suzanne Simard. And we awarded her the 16th Kew International Medal for her work and her devotion to championing biodiversity in forests. She's worked in British Columbia all her life in Canada, and she was the pioneer of the theory that plants communicate with each other through a huge subterranean fungal network. And the book reveals how trees connect and cooperate with each other, and that each forest contains hub trees. So mother trees. And that these trees in the forest play a critical role in the flow of information and resources.
Julia Willison: So I feel that the book will change the way people look at forests. They're not simply a source for timber or pulp, but they are really part of a complex, interdependent circle of life. And I think it's a magnificent book. Well, if one reader reads it and enjoys it, I think that will be brilliant.
Kelly Molson: Do you know what? I have to read this book. So this is the second podcast, interestingly, where. Oh, not the book. The book has never been recommended before. No, this is a completely new one. So David Green, Head of Innovation at Blenheim, was on the podcast a couple of episodes ago, and he talked about how trees communicate with each other, and that was a new thing for me. I had no idea that trees talk to each other, and the way that he described it was really interesting. And now this has come up in this as well. And I feel like someone is sending me a message that I need to read this book. So that's going to go top of my list, right.
Kelly Molson: Erveryboday, listeners, you know what to do if you want to win a copy of Julia's book, then head over to our Twitter account and retweet this episode announcement with the words, I want Julia's book and you could potentially be learning about how trees communicate with each other and are a vital part of an ecosystem. Thank you. That's fascinating. Everything that you've talked about today is so exciting, and I know that there's so much work still to be done. Thank you for coming on and sharing about all of the things that you do there and all of the things that you're hoping to achieve. I have no doubt that you will do them. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Julia Willison: Yeah, it's a real privilege. Thank you very much, Kelly. Thank you.
Kelly Molson: Thanks for listening to Skip The Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned.
Skip the queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, rubbercheese.com/podcast.

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