Episoder
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Post Office leadership commissioned at least 6 different investigations of varying degrees of independence and rigor into complaints about Horizon after 2010. And yet none of them got to the truth. In the next two episodes, we unpack what not to do when setting up inquiries and investigations.
Opening grab from Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Alice Perkins, former Post Office Limited Chair.
Final grab from Mr Beer KC and Rod Ismay, Former Post Office Limited, Head of Product and Branch Accounting.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
Another great round of questions, thanks!
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
Manglende episoder?
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Thanks for the questions folks!
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
The Australian Public Service Commission has released the findings of its Centralised Code of Conduct Inquiry into Robodebt.
Outro grab from The West Wing, Season 3, Episode 10.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
In this episode, we look at why Post Office kept prosecuting Sub Post Masters through the lens of Dan Davies' analysis in his new book The Unaccountability Machine.
Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Alisdair Cameron, CFO and former interim CE of Post Office Ltd.
Subsequent grab from Mr Blake KC (Counsel Assisting) and Graham Brander, former Post Office Investigator.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Anne Chambers, former Fujitsu Engineer Third Line Support.
Final grab from Mr Blake KC and Paul Inwood, former Post Office Limited Contract Manager.
For thorough and detailed reporting of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
A massive power imbalance, everyone doing the narrowest version of their jobs, and an overriding culture that assumed postmasters were thieves. These are just some of the ways Post Office ended up prosecuting postmasters for shortfalls that existed only on the computer.
Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Rob Wilson, former Head of the Royal Mail Group Criminal Law Team.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC and Helen Rose, former Post Office / Royal Mail Group Auditor.
Final grab from Andrew Wise, former Advisor in the Network Business Support Centre, Post Office.For thorough and detailed reporting of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
In this episode, former state Minister for Health and the Arts (among others) the Hon John Hill, shares his insights into what Ministers want - and what they need - from the public service.
You can buy his book ‘On being a Minister’ here - and if you’re brave, share with your Minister!Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
In this second interview with former Commonwealth Secretary and Australian Public Service Commissioner Andrew Podger AO, Danielle gets to chat about
The pros and cons of bringing all service delivery together in a single agency The valuing of operational expertise v policy leadershipThe role of portfolio budget practices in driving RobodebtCultures of challenge and diversity of thoughtThe future of public service reform.References in the episode
2019 Thodey Review of Australian Public Service1976 Coombs Royal Commission on Australian Government AdministrationNow for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
With a decade as a Commonwealth Secretary, and two more as Australian Public Service Commissioner, it is no surprise Robodebt Royal Commissioner Holmes turned to Andrew Podger AO for expert advice on the operation of the public service.
In this episode, Danielle talks to Andrew about the impact that granting tenure could have on the quality of advice, the increasing use of labour hire in the public service, and the importance of senior executives having read the legislation.
Also referenced in the conversation:
The ‘Barilaro Report’: NSW DPC Investigation into the Appointment of Senior Trade and Investment Commissioner to the AmericasBlair Comley, Cth Secretary Health and Ageing, speech to IPAA (14 March 2024)Intro grab features Counsel Assisting Justin Greggery, Ms Kathryn Campbell AO CSC, and Commission Holmes, 11 November 2022.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
What does the community want more - every last transgressor to be punished, or government to keep out of their business?
How can regulators keep pace with changing community expectations about what is ‘appropriate’ - and, indeed, what is a workplace?
What is a regulator to do when you’re facing these issues in the full glare of media scrutiny?
In this final episode of the Essendon mini-series, we think about what this footy doping scandal can tell us about the challenges of being a modern regulator.
Intro grab is then Chief Executive of the AFL, Andrew Demetriou, at the press conference releasing the Australian Crime Commission report on 7 February, 2013.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
In episode two of this mini-series, we pick up the story of the Essendon supplements scandal from the perspective of the investigators.
In this story we hear how ASADA ends up in the middle of a media fire storm, with inadequate regulatory powers and biopharmaceutical technology racing ahead.
But is it really a matter for ASADA at all? Is this an anti-doping violation, or a WHS breach? And why do Cronulla players end up suspended for six matches, while Essendon players get two years?
Intro grab is Richard Eccles, former Deputy Secretary Department for Regional Australia, Local Government, Arts and Sports.
Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray, former Essendon player.
Both from the Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest day.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
“Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015.
Lindsay Tanner ‘Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal’The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest DayZiggy Switkowski report into failures of governance at Essendon Football ClubDr Bruce Reid letter to Essendon Football Club about his concerns about the supplement regime
In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons for public servants from the Essendon Football Club supplement scandal in 2013.
In this episode, we talk about what happened in Essendon itself. The dangers of charismatic new leaders, new brooms through an organisation, and a failure to take controls and risk management seriously.
Referenced in this episode:Intro grab is Lindsay Tanner, Governance lessons from the Essendon scandal.
Outro grab is Nathan Lovett-Murray and Emma Murray, The Long Haul podcast, Episode Two: Inside the Blackest Day.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
In the second of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon dives deep on her commitment to training Centrelink staff, including the establishment of an in-house Registered Training Organisation (RTO).
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
In the first of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon returns to share her thoughts on the dangers for Senior Executives who outsource considerations of legality to the lawyers.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later.
ANAO Report on Accuracy and Timeliness of Welfare Payments (2023)The UK Covid Inquiry Podcast
We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout.
Finally, Danielle proposes an end to end definition of efficiency, that captures costs we move to other parts of government, or end up paying later on.Intro grab from Sue Vardon AO Bonus Episode.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides.
In the final episode of our first (but not last!) mini-series on the Post Office scandal, we examine how the Post Office 'forgot' what it knew about Horizon's unreliability, and then removed key guard rails that might have prevented false prosecutions.
Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Kathryn Parker (former Post Office training), 13 January 2023.
Subsequent grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Susan Harding (former Post office Business Process Architect), 22 February 2023.
For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own.
In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going.
We also have strong feelings about the idea of 'minimum viable products' where the delivery of social services - and the founding of prosecutions - are concerned.
Opening grab from Mr Stevens KC (Counsel Assisting the Inquiry) and Stuart Sweetman (former Managing Director of Post Office Counters Limited), 17 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Mr Jeremy Folkes (former Infrastructure Assurance Team Leader, Horizon Programme, Post Office Counters Ltd) and Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting), 17 November 2022.
For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place?
Harriet Harman, Minister for Social Services, February 2018 letter to PM Blair can be found here.Geoff Mulgan's December 2018 minute to PM Blair can be found here, and his reflections after appearing at the Inquiry can be found on his blog here.
And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.)
In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled together to buy an ICT system through an elaborately structured, too clever by half Private Finance Initiative (PFI).
Among other things, we talk about the role of first ministers and Cabinet in resolving disagreements between portfolios with genuinely different interests; the impossibility of outsourcing political risk; and the challenge of working out the truth when everyone you speak to has an agenda.
Opening grab from Lord Alistair Darling, former Chief Secretary of Treasury, 29 November 2022.
Subsequent grab from Sir Geoffrey Mulgan, former civil servant No. 10 Downing St, 2 December 2022.
For thorough and detailed coverage of the Post Office Scandal, start with the reporting of Nick Wallis, including his BBC podcast, the Great Post Office Trial.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
Season 2 kicks off with a deeper look at the British Post Office fiasco.
Nick Wallis BBC4 podcast The Great Post Office TrialAlison's recommended listening re psychological safety, Adam Grant's Think AgainOn the 'objective review' conducted by the Post Office in 2010 to make the strongest case as to why Horizon should be trusted, see, Nick Wallis Rod Ismay: The Useful IdiotTony Moore 'Sorry' not such a hard work for Peter Beattie to say Sylvan Baker, Mr Bates vs The Post Office: why docudramas have the power to inspire real social and political changeChannel 7 has secured the Australian rights to Mr Bates v Post Office.
Gaslighting critics, false confessions, aggressive litigation tactics, challenges with redress, and no accountability from senior leaders - sound familiar?Intro grab features Paula Vennells, Chief Executive of Post Office, appearing before a Parliamentary Select Committee in 2015.
Outro grab features Peter Beattie apologising for excluding athletes from the Commonwealth Games closing ceremony in 2018.Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! -
In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission. Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same.
She also takes us through her career, from being the only social worker in Wagga Wagga through to leading the establishment of Centrelink.
Along the way, she covers the difference between being a 'customer' and a 'recipient', the snap back of bureaucratic and hierarchical cultures, the value of operational experience and much more.
Grab at around 1 hr 6 min is Commissioner Holmes and Kathryn Campbell AO CSC and Bar, November 11 2022.
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.Sue Vardon AO has 23 years of experience as a public sector Chief Executive, including CE of the Office of Public Sector Reform, the Public Service Commissioner and the CE of the Department for Correctional Services in South Australia. She was inaugural CE of Centrelink in 1997, a position she held until 2004. She finished her full-time public service career as CE of the South Australian Department for Families and Communities. She was the first Telstra Businesswoman of the Year.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....
While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.
If you want rigorous reporting on Robodebt, we recommend the work of Rick Morton at the Saturday Paper, Chris Knaus and Luke Henriques-Gomes at the Guardian, Ben Eltham at Crikey, Julian Bajkowski at The Mandarin, and of course, the Robodebt Royal Commission itself.
Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].
Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.
'Til next time! - Vis mere
