Episoder
-
DAVID CROSLING/AAP
Captain James Cook arrived in the Pacific 250 years ago, triggering British colonisation of the region. Weâre asking researchers to reflect on what happened and how it shapes us today. You can see other stories in the series here and an interactive here.
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander listeners should be aware the podcast accompanying this story contains the names of people who are deceased.
Itâs 250 years since Captain James Cook set foot in Australia, and thereâs a growing push to fully acknowledge the violence of Australiaâs colonial past.
On todayâs episode of the podcast, historian Kate Darian-Smith of the University of Tasmania explains that the way Australia has commemorated Cookâs arrival has changed over time â from military displays in 1870 to waning interest in Cook in the 1950s, followed by the fever-pitch celebrations of 1970.
Now, though, a more nuanced debate is required, she says, adding that itâs time to discuss the violence that Cookâs crew meted out to Indigenous people after stepping ashore at Botany Bay.
âI think discussing those violent moments is quite confronting for many Australians, but also sits within wider discussions about Aboriginal rights and equality in todayâs Australia,â Darian-Smith told The Conversationâs Phoebe Roth.
In her companion essay here, co-authored with Katrina Schlunke, Darian-Smith argues many of the popular âre-enactmentsâ of national âfoundation momentsâ in Australiaâs past have elements of fantasy, compressing time and history into palatable narratives for mainstream Australia.
New to podcasts?Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is here.
Additional audio credits
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Podcast episode recorded by Phoebe Roth and edited by Sophia Morris.
Tasfilm report on the 1970 commemorations of Cookâs arrival.
1970 news report of protest.
Lead imageDavid Crosling/AAP
Read more: As we celebrate the rediscovery of the Endeavour let's acknowledge its complicated legacy
-
Uncle Fred Deeral as little old man in the film The Message, by Zakpage, to be shown at the National Museum of Australia in April. Nik Lachajczak of Zakpage, Author provided (no reuse)
Captain James Cook arrived in the Pacific 250 years ago, triggering British colonisation of the region. Weâre asking researchers to reflect on what happened and how it shapes us today. You can see other stories in the series here and an interactive here.
Editorâs note: This is an edited transcript of an interview with John Maynard for our podcast Trust Me, Iâm An Expert. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander readers are advised this article contains names of deceased people.
There are a multitude of Aboriginal oral memories about Captain James Cook, right across the continent.
As the research from Deborah Bird Rose shows, many Aboriginal people in remote locations are certainly under the impression that Cook came there as well, shooting people in a kind of Cook-led invasion of Australia. Many of these communities, of course, never met James Cook; the man never even went there.
But the deep impact of James Cook that spread across the country and he came to represent the bogeyman for Aboriginal Australia.
Even back in the Protection and Welfare Board days, a government car would turn up and Aboriginal people would be running around screaming, âLookie, lookie, here comes Cookie!â
I wrote about Uncle Ray Rose, sadly recently departed, whoâd had a stroke. Someone said, âHow do you feel?â And he said, âNo good. Iâm Captain Cooked.â
Cook, wherever he went up the coast, was giving names where names already existed. Yuin oral memory in the south coast of NSW gives the example of what they called Gulaga and Cook called âMount Dromedaryâ:
[âŠ] that name can be seen as the first of the changes that come for our people [âŠ] Cookâs maps were very good, but they did not show our names for places. He didnât ask us.
Cook has been incorporated into songs, jokes, stories and Aboriginal oral histories right across the country.
Why? I think itâs an Aboriginal response to the way weâve been taught about our history.
Read more: Captain Cook wanted to introduce British justice to Indigenous people. Instead, he became increasingly cruel and violent
Myth-making persists but a shift is underwayI came through a school system of the 50s and 60s, and we werenât werenât even mentioned in the history books except as a people belonging to the Stone Age or as a dying race.
It was all about discoverers, explorers, settlers and Phar Lap or Don Bradman. But us Aboriginal people? Not there.
We had this high exposure of the public celebration of Cook, the statues of Cook, the reenactments of Cook â it was really in your face. For Aboriginal people, how do we make sense of all of this, faced with the reality of our experience and the catastrophic impact?
Weâve got to make sense of it the best way we can, and I think thatâs why Cook turns up in so many oral histories.
I think wider Australia is moving towards a more balanced understanding of our history. Lots of people now recognise the richest cultural treasure the country possesses is 65,000 years of Aboriginal cultural connection to this continent.
Thatâs unlike anywhere else in the world. I mean no disrespect, but 250 years is a drop in a lake compared to 65,000 years. From our perspective, in fact, weâve always been here. Our people came out of the Dreamtime of the creative ancestors and lived and kept the Earth as it was in the very first day.
With global warming, rising sea levels, rising temperatures and catastrophic storms, Aboriginal people did keep the Earth as it was in the very first day to ensure that it was passed to each surviving generation.
There was going to be a (now-cancelled) circumnavigation of Australia in the official proceedings this year, which the prime minister supported. But James Cook didnât circumnavigate Australia. He only sailed up the east coast. So thatâs creating more myths again, which is a senseless way to go.
A painting of Captain Cook and the Endeavour journal on display at the National Library of Australia. AAP/ALAN PORRITT âWith the consent of the Natives to take possessionâPersonally, I have high regard for James Cook as a navigator, as a cartographer, and certainly as an inspiring captain of his crew. He encouraged incredible loyalty among those that sailed with him on those three voyages. And that has to be recognised.
But against that, of course, is the reality that he was given secret instructions by the Navy to:
With the consent of the Natives to take possession of the convenient situations in the country in the name of the king of Great Britain.
Well, consent was never given. When they went ashore at Botany Bay, two Aboriginal men brandished spears and made it quite clear they didnât want him there. Those men were wounded and Cook was one of those firing a musket.
There was no gaining any consent when he sailed on to Possession Island and planted that flag down. Totally the opposite, in fact.
And the most insightful viewpoint is from Cook himself, who wrote that:
all they seemâd to want was for us to be gone.
Cookâs background gave him insightJames Cook wasnât your normal British naval officer of that time period. To get into such a position, you normally had to be born into the right family, to come from money and privilege.
James Cook was none of those things. He came from a poor family. His father was a labourer. Cook got to where he was by skill, endeavour, and, unquestionably, because he was a very smart man and brilliant at sea. But itâs also from that background that heâs able to offer insight.
Thereâs an incredible quotation of Cookâs where he says of Aboriginal people:
They live in a Tranquillity which is not disturbâd by the Inequality of Condition⊠they live in a warm and fine Climate and enjoy a very wholsome Air.
Now, Cook is comparing what he is seeing in Australia with life back Britain, where there is an incredible amount of inequality. London, at the time, was filthy. Sewerage pouring through the streets. Disease was rife. Underprivilege is everywhere.
In Australia, though, Cook sees what to him looks like this incredible egalitarian society and it makes an impact on him because of where he comes from.
But deeper misunderstandings persisted. In whatâs now called Cooktown there are, at first, amicable relationships with the Guugu Yimithirr people, but when they come aboard the Endeavour they see this incredible profusion of turtles that the crew has captured.
Theyâre probably thinking, âthese are our turtles.â They would quite happily share some of those turtles but the Bristish response is: you get none.
So the Guugu Yimithirr people go off the ship and set the grass on fire. Eventually, thereâs a kind of peace settlement but the incident reveals a complete blindness on the part of the British to the idea of reciprocity in Aboriginal society.
Read more: 'They are all dead': for Indigenous people, Cook's voyage of 'discovery' was a ghostly visitation
A collision of catastrophic proportionsThe impact of 1770 has never eased for Aboriginal people. It was a collision of catastrophic proportions. The whole impact of 1788 â of invasion, dispossession, cultural destruction, occupation onto assimilation, segregation â all of these things that came after 1770.
Anything you want to measure â Aboriginal health, education, employment, housing, youth suicide, incarceration â we have the worst stats. That has been a continuation, a reality of the failure of government to recognise what has happened in the past and actually do something about it in the present to fix it for the future.
Weâve had decades and decades of governments saying to us, âWe know whatâs best for you.â But the fact is that when it comes to Aboriginal well being, the only people to listen to are Aboriginal people and weâve never been put in the position.
Weâve been raising our voices for a long time now, but some people see that as a threat and are not prepared to listen.
An honest reckoning of the reality of Cook and what came after wonât heal things overnight. But itâs a starting point, from which we can join hands and walk together toward a shared future.
A balanced understanding of the past will help us build a future â it is of critical importance.
New to podcasts?Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is here.
Additional audio credits
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Marimba On the Loose by Daniel Birch, from Free Music Archive.
Podcast episode recorded and edited by Sunanda Creagh.
Lead imageUncle Fred Deeral as little old man in the film The Message, a film by Zakpage, to be shown at the National Museum of Australia in April. Nik Lachajczak of Zakpage.
-
Manglende episoder?
-
Shutterstock
In todayâs episode, Clare Collins, a Professor in Nutrition and Dietetics at the University of Newcastle, explains how our diets might need to change depending on what stage of life weâre in.
The Conversationâs Phoebe Roth started by asking: what should kids be eating and how much should parents worry about children eating vegetables?
An edited transcript is below.
New to podcasts?Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is here.
Additional audio credits
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Podcast episode recorded by Phoebe Roth and edited by Sophia Morris.
Lead imageShutterstock
Edited transcriptClare Collins: Parents worry so much about what children eat. But the rule of thumb is if theyâre growing well, then you donât need to worry. They are eating enough food.
And the way you know if theyâre growing well is: if you take their baby book or you have a growth chart on your wall and you plot their height and weight regularly, youâll be able to see if theyâre following one of the lines on the growth chart. And thatâs the best indicator.
The other thing thatâs worth remembering is that a well child wonât starve themselves. But for children, their appetite is more variable than an adult. With us, we go, âWell, 12 o'clock, better eat lunch,â or âOh, Iâm awake, better have breakfast now because Iâm going to be busy at work later.â But for children, theyâre much more responsive to their internal cues.
And the younger the child, the more variable their appetite. So a typical thing is, a two or three year old might eat a massive breakfast and tomorrow they donât eat any. At daycare, they might eat a huge lunch or none at all. And then the same thing happens at dinner. So if your childâs in daycare, you might want to look in the book or ask the staff, did they eat afternoon tea and lunch today? And thatâll give you a little bit of a guide as to whether you should be encouraging them to eat a little bit more dinner or just go, well, they had just had a massive afternoon tea, so theyâre not really going to be hungry.
The other thing with children around the evening meal is that they often run out of steam by the end of the day. So having the evening meal as early as is practical. And for a young child, that may mean theyâre having their dinner at five o'clock. And then what they eat at the family meal time is an optional extra. Because if you make them wait till 6 or 7pm, theyâre over it and dinner becomes a nightmare.
The other thing that we know about kids, in terms of should we worry about them not eating vegetables, is weâve actually done some research on this. And we found for kids around the age of three, the biggest predictor of their vegetable intake was not what mum had eaten in pregnancy. It was actually what the parents were eating now. So if you really want your children to eat heaps of veggies, itâs monkey-see-monkey-do, then that means weâve got to look at how much we love our broccoli, mum and dad. And then that will make a big difference.
The other factor that comes into vegetable intake is genetics. And about 25% of people are what are called âsuper tastersâ. That means they have got extra taste buds. And I wrote an article about this on The Conversation, actually. And so they taste things like the brassicas family â so Brussels sprouts, cauliflower â they taste it as more bitter than people who were either, not super tasters or, you know, have less taste buds. But more good news: even if youâre a super taster, if you donât give up and you have repeated exposure, you even overcome that. So thereâs no excuse for not liking your cauliflower.
Read more: How much food should my child be eating? And how can I get them to eat more healthily?
Phoebe Roth: Thatâs really interesting. I had no idea about a lot of that. So you started to touch on my next question, but I wonder if there are any other tips youâve got. I was going to ask, what does the evidence say works for developing healthy eating habits during childhood or for kids if youâre worried perhaps theyâre not eating as well as they should be.
Clare Collins: The key thing for developing healthy eating habits in childhood is not giving up and trying not to stress. So really accepting there is variability. Studies have been done on toddler intake and shown that over 24 hours they pretty much eat about the same total energy intake. But if you look meal to meal, hugely variable, like I mentioned.
The other key time when I think parents, you know, the food wars can start around 18 months and then people go, you know, âthe terrible twos, they just never eat anything!â Well, if you want to avoid the food wars, then around 18 months, just step back a little bit and observe how much food is your child usually eating, because up until 18 months, babies have tripled their birth weight. So, you know, born around, say youâre around three kilos, well around six months youâll be six kilos and around 18 months youâll be nine kilos. Now, if in the next 18 months you tripled your birth weight again, what would that be? Nine, 18, 36 kilos. Around that. So around 18 months, depending on a childâs activity, they can actually go through a period of time where their energy needs are relatively less and you are going âNo, last month theyâd eat a whole punnet of blueberries!â and then you may start trying to force feed them. Thatâs where the beginnings of the food wars can start. So, trusting, like I said, that a well child will not starve themselves.
It can be different if the child has medical requirements and need for a therapeutic diet. Thatâs a whole separate kettle of fish and youâd be needing to talk to your GP, maybe be referred to a dietitian for specific problems or if thereâs actual feeding problems, a speech pathologist.
So for the average child, it is about exposure, letting them feed themselves, not force feeding them and rewarding the behaviour that you want to see. So picture this: dinner time at the table. One child chasing those veggies around the plate with a fork and the other child eating up the foods that theyâre really hungry for. If you focus on the child doing the âright thingâ â you know, âI love the way, Jodi, youâre eating that broccoli and carrots,â rather than, âhey, Sammy, youâre going to sit there til every pea has disappeared off your plateâ â well, then youâre reinforcing that vegetables are disgusting. So if you focus on the behaviours you want to see, then the other children start to recognise that, âoh, I only get attention if Iâm doing the âright thingâ. â So reward the behaviour you want to see.
Most of the dinner is consumed in 20 minutes. So donât make the meals drawn out. And for kids with a smaller appetite, having healthy snacks will make up for whatâs not eaten within 20 minutes.
Read more: Five things parents can do to improve their children's eating patterns
Phoebe Roth: Okay, great. And today weâre discussing, obviously, the Australian Dietary Guidelines and sort of adapting diet at each stage of life. And so I wanted to know at which of lifeâs different stages might our dietary needs change? Weâve now talked about kids, but what about, say, for pregnant women, women going through menopause and any others?
Clare Collins: Okay. For boys and girls, their dietary needs stay about the same until adolescence. And then thatâs the first time the next alarm bells ring. Once girls start menstruating then their iron requirements are much, much greater. Boys, if theyâre super active and they have a big increase in lean body mass â so itâs kind of like, you know, if you go from a little car to a big car, you need a lot more fuel â so for boys, all of a sudden theyâre eating a lot more food. And meeting those nutritional requirements of adolescence is important because adolescence is also the time when teenagers typically experiment with different types of diets, you know, so they might be on a vegetarian diet or a vegan diet. So just keeping an eye on that. The key nutrients are iron â and you can get that from vegetarian foods and great articles on The Conversation about that, by the way.
And thereâs also articles on The Conversation about adolescents and another typical issue that arises at adolescence, where parents are going âI wonder if this is a dietary problemâ is diet and acne. And Iâve actually written on that for The Conversation.
And your nutrient needs for women change again during pregnancy and breastfeeding. The growing baby is a pretty good sponge. So itâs really the mumâs nutritional status thatâs most at risk and the baby will be doing its best to grow with whatever fuelâs available. But to optimise the babyâs growth and development, you do want to have a nutritious dietary pattern. But you donât need as much extra food and nutrients as you think. Basically, itâs equivalent to an extra tub of yoghurt and a salad sandwich to meet your extra requirements. But some diet-related problems do kick off in pregnancy like heartburn or developing constipation. And, you know, pregnant women and this happened to me as well, during pregnancy, go, hey, how come this is happening? Well, during pregnancy, there are hormonal changes to essentially slow down your transit time in your gut to give your body the best chance of getting any nutrients out of the food so to support the pregnancy.
And so eating healthily in pregnancy is really important, but you may need a boost in your dietary fibre intake. And one of the articles Iâve written for The Conversation is on how to manage constipation. And thereâs a whole hierarchy of nutrition things you can do. And beyond that, then you really do need to mention it to your obstetrician or your GP in case you need some other type of like medicinal help. And then itâs got to make sure itâs something thatâs safe for pregnancy. And you do need to talk to them about that.
Read more: Health Check: what to eat and avoid during pregnancy
Phoebe Roth: Sure. Are there any other life stages where you might need to think about changing your diet? What if, say, you develop a particular health condition?
Clare Collins: If you develop a particular health condition, then absolutely. The most common diet-related health conditions in Australia is type 2 diabetes. And some people are now being diagnosed with pre-diabetes, which is like an alarm bell and gives you a chance to change your dietary patterns and your lifestyle behaviours like physical activity so that you donât go on to develop type 2 diabetes. And then the other one is heart disease. Both of those have dietary components.
So for type 2 diabetes, youâre likely to moderate the type and amount of carbohydrate. And for heart disease, thereâs a whole range of bioactive foods that you can boost your intake of â whole grains, vegetables and fruit, reducing your saturated fat intake. And, you know, you can find articles about all of those things on The Conversation.
But if you read those and you go, oh, wow, itâs way more complex than I thought or I really would like some personalised advice, then ask your GP to refer you to an Accredited Practising Dietitian and get a personalised plan.
Phoebe Roth: Yeah, absolutely. And the other one is menopause. I know youâre writing an article for us coming up on menopause and whether there are specific things you need to keep in mind regarding your diet.
Clare Collins: Menopause is really unfair because one of my colleagues, Lauren Williams, whoâs co-authoring the article and sheâs from Griffith University up there on the Gold Coast, is her whole PhD research was on this topic and she studied the Australian Longitudinal Study of Womenâs Health and followed the women as they transitioned through menopause. And the average weight gain is about two and a half kilos.
But even that is not the most unfair aspect of menopause. What she discovered is that thereâs no discount, if you like, on gaining weight, if you lived a healthy lifestyle already, that all women are prone to weight gain during menopause. And itâs a combination of the hormonal changes amplified by life changes. And some of those life changes are that for most women, the physical work actually reduces at that time. You know, the house might be less people living in your house and you donât have to do as much housework.
For many women, you have more disposable income. So you actually can go out a little bit more, spend more money on eating out. And the other thing is itâs a life stage where alcohol intake increases in women. You know, the perfect storm. You know, you had this lovely, healthy lifestyle and then you gained weight.
But what she also found, which is the important message, is that during that menopausal transition, women who changed something, they went, âRight. Iâm going to beat this weight gain.â And they decided to eat more vegetables or develop new, healthier recipes or walk a lot more. They did not gain that average two point, 2.5-ish kilos.
As much as I really think that sucks that we gain weight during menopause, Iâm really pleased to know that itâs not inevitable, but itâs kind of like, you know, itâs like having to do a spring clean on your life stage patterns, on your dietary patterns and on your physical activity. And you can get through menopause in a healthy weight and with a healthy lifestyle and be healthier. But we have to be on guard. So unfair.
Read more: Health Check: six tips for losing weight without fad diets
Phoebe Roth: So in the healthy eating side of things, would that just be sort of following the Australian Dietary Guidelines?
Clare Collins: Well, yes, but we need to make a little note of caution about the Dietary Guidelines. And that is not many people eat like the Australian Dietary Guidelines. In fact, the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare modelled what would happen if people did eat five serves of vegetables and two serves of fruit and had their whole grains and used reduced fat dairy and, you know, chose the leanest forms of protein.
They model that if everyone in Australia tomorrow started eating like the recommendations found in the Australian Dietary Guidelines, that heart disease rates would drop by 62% and that diabetes rates would drop by â type 2 diabetes rates, I should say â would drop by around 40%. Thatâs not going to happen. People arenât going to do that. And we know that only 3 out of 100 Australians eat five serves of vegetables a day.
So, yes, definitely eat more like the Australian Guide to Healthy Eating and the Australian Dietary Guidelines, but a good place you can start is the Healthy Eating Quiz. This is a short quiz that takes less than 10 minutes to do. Itâs free and itâs online. It rates your dietary patterns compared to recommendations in the Australian Dietary Guidelines. And that now links to a really fun website â we think itâs fun anyway because we invented it â called No Money, No Time. Itâs got recipe recommendations to match with your Healthy Eating Quiz report.
Weâve set up some fun filters on there. So if youâve only got a basic kitchen and youâve got a microwave and just one pot, you can filter it for recipes matching your kitchen equipment. And we also added this other filter that allows you to say what your healthy lifestyle goals are. And weâve catered for all ages on that. Some people told us their goal was to have glowing skin. And some people said, I want to do better in my sport. And some people have said I want to manage my weight. So you can further tailor the recipes for that. So No Money, No Time and the Healthy Eating Quiz. And thatâs our way of trying to help Australians eat a little bit more healthy and feel better and have their health improve as well.
Read more: Got pre-diabetes? Here's five things to eat or avoid to prevent type 2 diabetes
Phoebe Roth: I am already keen to jump on that straight after this and give it a try. Great. So the Dietary Guidelines, would you say theyâre a really good resource and reference point, but possibly not a one size fits all approach?
Clare Collins: Absolutely. And there are some resources on the government websites called Eat for Health, and there are some resources on that. And they are designed for the predominantly healthy Australian population while recognising that overweight and obesity are relatively common and that people are commonly seeking extra advice for things like type 2 diabetes and heart disease. Thereâs certainly a good first place to stop. But as I mentioned, you may need extra specialised help if you have some of those common chronic diseases. And a good place to start to find out is with a health check up with your general practitioner who can do a heart health check and check your blood pressure. And you know, if you donât have scales at home, they can do a check on your weight. But more important than that is checking on your blood to see what your cholesterol level is and whether your blood sugar levels are high, indicating youâre at a higher risk for type 2 diabetes.
Phoebe Roth: So what do people need to consider to ensure theyâre following the right diet for their individual circumstances or for their stage of life?
Clare Collins: I think the key thing, when it comes to diet-related health or nutrition-related health is knowing what your risk factors are for these chronic conditions. And really to know those, you do need to check in with a health professional, with your general practitioner. You might be a lucky person who has the genes that mean you have wonderful blood sugar levels and you have wonderful cholesterol levels and your blood pressureâs great. Then that would essentially mean that youâre doing the right things for your genes and for your body. But a check-up with your GP is usually a chance to see, you know, what does need to be tweaked in my diet? One of the things about high blood pressure is that itâs really common, but thereâs absolutely no signs or symptoms. So until you get it checked by your GP, you wouldnât even know.
Phoebe Roth: What about for older people? What sort of things do they need to consider about diet?
Clare Collins: Once you start approaching 75 and above, then itâs interesting that your nutrition requirements and your dietary requirements start to shift a little bit. Once you get older, the focus moves to trying not to lose your muscle tissue. Thereâs a word for that malnutrition of older age and itâs called sarcopenia. And itâs really important. And so as you age to protect your body from sarcopenia, your protein requirements actually start to go up.
And people have this image of, âOh, you know older people. They just need a cup of tea and a piece of toast.â Well, they actually donât. They might need their coffee made on milk or they might need a nutritional supplement if their appetiteâs really poor. And this is another time where you may need specialised nutrition advice. If thereâs any underlying medical conditions or if the older people in your family are in a nursing home, you may need to talk to the nursing home staff about whether theyâre meeting their nutritional requirements or not.
As you age physical activity and because your muscle mass decreases, your total energy intake reduces. And itâs a little bit like going from the big car down to the smaller car. You still need the same amounts of vitamins and minerals and things we call phytonutrients. You know, theyâre not a vitamin or theyâre not a mineral, but they help your body run better. You still need the same amount of them, but you need them in less energy. So thereâs like less room for error. So the tea and toast isnât adequate, you know, for grandma or granddad, for the older person. Theyâre having nutritious and nutrient dense foods.
So, you know, vegetable soup, so to put all the vegetables in, in the right texture that looks appealing is really important. The other thing as you get older is that your taste buds change. You can have less. Some of your taste buds start to decline. And so flavouring food more and to the way, you know, Nanna or Grandpa like it rather than the way you like it is really important. So it can be a life stage where for people, if they think, âGee, food just doesnât taste as good anymore, then trying out what herbs, spices and flavourings they like and using those to replace salt.
Because as you age youâre more prone to high blood pressure and youâre also more prone to developing diabetes. So nutrition remains important right through your life. And itâs a really important part of our social lives.
So I think, you know, if I had one final message, itâs: no matter what you do or how busy you are, still finding that time to cook, prepare and eat with other people is a really important way of preserving your own familyâs food culture and looking after the nutrition-related health and the social well-being of everyone in your family.
Read more: The muscle-wasting condition 'sarcopenia' is now a recognised disease. But we can all protect ourselves
Phoebe Roth: And the last question I have, I wonder if â it goes into all ages, for anyone thatâs trying to eat healthy and follow a healthy diet â where do superfoods fit in? I know that there may not be one answer to fit all, but I think that thatâs kind of a question people grapple with it when the next fad is right in front of them. And you know, what do they do? Should they eat this? Should they go out and buy it?
Clare Collins: Fad diets are just so ongoing and regular that we often write articles for The Conversation about them. But you know, my thing about superfoods is that there are super foods, thereâs heaps of them and theyâre actually all in the supermarket.
And when you walk in the supermarket â this is one way supermarket design does try and help us eat healthy â you walk smack bang into the super food section and theyâre right there. They donât have packages. They donât have labels. But itâs that wide variety of vegetables and fruit. And I think if there was one important thing to remember, when you go to the supermarket every week when you went to the supermarket or you enter a market, look at those vegetable and fruits and which one has not been in your trolley, you know, in the last couple of weeks? And invite them in. Some of the research that weâve done shows that the variety of vegetables and fruit, but particularly the variety of vegetables, predicts your long term health care costs.
And weâve shown that in a research study over 15 years on the Australian Longitudinal study on Womenâs Health. And lots of the research weâve been doing is showing that the variety of those foods that belong to the Australian Guide to Healthy Eating in the Australian Dietary Guidelines, that itâs actually those nutrient-rich foods that predict your nutrient intake and then decide whether youâre on a path for health or youâre not on a path for health. Youâre on a path for poor health.
So going for variety in your whole grains, your vegetables, your fruits, your sources of protein, which includes meat, poultry, fish and then all the wonderful vegetarian sources and whole grains. Collectively, those things make up a healthy diet pattern. They make up you when you eat them. And then that determines whether youâre going to be healthy or less healthy.
Read more: Had pre-eclampsia in pregnancy? These 5 things will lower your risk of heart disease
Phoebe Roth: Is there anything else you want to talk about that we didnât touch on?
Clare Collins: The only thing is I hope people donât feel alone when it comes to nutrition. Go and have a look at No Money, No Time. Not only have we loaded that website up with lots of recipes, weâve also loaded up with lots of information, hacks and myths. Weâve linked a lot of The Conversation articles to it. And then the other place to go for good information is go to The Conversation and type in nutrition in the search bar. And youâll see lots of the articles that myself, my team and lots of other academics from other universities around Australia have written on food and nutrition.
Phoebe Roth: Thank you so much, Clare, for joining us on Trust Me, Iâm An Expert today. Itâs been great talking to you again.
Clare Collins: Thank you. Itâs my absolute pleasure.
-
AAP/EPA/ANDY RAIN
What does the COVID-19 pandemic sound like?
For this episode, Dallas Rogers â a senior lecturer in the School of Architecture, Design and Planning at the University of Sydney â asked academic colleagues from all over the world to open up the voice recorder on their phones and record a two minute report from the field about their city.
Many of those who responded to the call are struggling, just like us, to make sense of their experience in the COVID-19 city.
The resulting stories reflect on hygiene, disease, quarantine, social control and the urban environment from cities around the world.
If you want to hear all the stories in full, you can find them here, and read more about the project here.
ContributorsRoger Keil (@rkeil), Professor at York University
Jason Byrne (@CityByrne), Professor at the University of Tasmania
Kurt Iveson (@kurtiveson), Associate Professor at the University of Sydney
Tanja Dreher (@TanjaDreher), Associate Professor at the University of NSW
Carolyn Whitzman (@CWhitzman), Professor and Bank of Montreal Womenâs Studies Scholar at the University of Ottawa
Tooran Alizadeh (@DrTooran), Associate Professor at the University of Sydney
Eugene McCann (@EJMcCann), Professor at Simon Fraser University
Beth Watts (@BethWatts494), a Senior Research Fellow at Heriot-Watt University
Amanda Kass (@Amanda_Kass), PhD candidate at the University of Illinois at Chicago
Elle Davidson, Aboriginal Planning Lecturer at the University of Sydney
Creighton Connolly (@Creighton88), Senior Lecturer at the University of Lincoln
Kelly Dombroski (@DombroskiKelly), Senior Lecturer at the University of Canterbury
Kate Murray (@katiemelbourne), Connected Cities Lab at the University of Melbourne
Em Dale (@carnivoresetal), at Oxford University
Matt Novacevski (@places_calling), PhD candidate at the University of Melbourne
Mirjam BĂŒdenbender (@MBuedenbender), advisor to the chair of the social-democratic parliamentary group in Berlin
Natalie Osborne (@DrNatOsborne), Lecturer at Griffith University
Ash Alam (@urbanmargin), Lecturer at University of Otago
Cameron Murray (@DrCameronMurray), Post-doctoral fellow at the University of Sydney
Deepti Prasad (@Deepti_Prasad_), PhD candidate at the University of Sydney
Madeleine Pill (@pillmad), Senior Lecturer at the University of Sheffield
Matt Wade, (@geminidluxe), Post-doctoral Fellow at the National University of Singapore is with Renae Johnson, an independent artist, in Singapore
Susan Caldis (@SusanCaldis), PhD candidate at Macquarie University
Paul Maginn (@Planographer), Associate Professor at the University of Western Australia
Music CreditsCrop circles by Craft Case, Inspri8ion by Pulsed, The city below by Marten Moses, Someone elseâs memories by So Vea. https://www.epidemicsound.com/
Theme beats by Unkle Ho from Elefant Traks.
Production creditsProject coordinated by Dallas Rogers.
Audio edited by Miles P. Herbert, with additional audio editing by Wes Mountain.
Lead imageAAP/EPA/ANDY RAIN
Read more: Coronavirus is stressful. Here are some ways to cope with the anxiety
-
What do you need to know about COVID-19 and coronavirus? We asked our readers for their top questions and sought answers from two of Australiaâs leading virus and vaccine experts.
Todayâs podcast episode features Professor Michael Wallach and Dr Lisa Sedger â both from the School of Life Sciences at the University of Technology, Sydney â answering questions from you, our readers. An edited transcript is below.
And if you have any questions yourself, please add them to the comments below.
New to podcasts?Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is here.
TranscriptSunanda Creagh: Hi, Iâm Sunanda Creagh. Iâm the Digital Storytelling editor at The Conversation, and Iâm here today with two of Australiaâs leading researchers on viruses and vaccines.
Lisa Sedger: Hi, my nameâs Lisa Sedger. Iâm an academic virologist at the University of Technology Sydney. And I do research on novel anti-viral agents and teach virology.
Michael Wallach: Iâm Professor Michael Wallach, the Associate Head of School for the School of Life Science (at the University of Technology Sydney) and my expertise in the area of development of vaccines.
Sunanda Creagh: And today, weâre asking these researchers to answer questions about coronavirus and COVID-19 from you guys, our readers and our audience. Weâre going to kick it off with Dr. Sedger. Adam would like to know: how long can this virus survive in various temperatures on a surface, say, a door handle or a counter at a public place?
Lisa Sedger: Oh, well, thatâs an interesting question, because we hear a variety of answers. Some people say that these types of envelope viruses can exist for two to three days, but it really depends on the amount of moisture and humidity and what happens on that surface afterwards, whether itâs wiped off or something. So potentially for longer than that, potentially up to a week. But with cleaning and disinfectants, etc, not very long.
Sunanda Creagh: And whatâs an envelope virus?
Lisa Sedger: Well, viruses are basically nucleic acid. So DNA like is in all of the cells in our body or RNA. And then they have a protein coat and then outside of that they have an envelope thatâs made of lipids. So itâs just an outer layer of the virus. And if itâs made of lipids, you can imagine any kind of detergent like when youâre doing your dishes, disrupts all the lipids in the fat. Thatâs how you get all the grease off your plates. Right? So any detergent like that will disrupt the envelope of the virus and make it non-infective. So cleaning surfaces is a good way to try and eliminate an infective virus particle from, for example, door handles, surfaces, et cetera.
Sunanda Creagh: And Professor Wallach, Paul would like to know: should people cancel travel plans given that this virus is already here? Does travelling make the spread worse? And thatâs international travel or domestic travel.
Michael Wallach: So this question has come up to many different governments from around the world whoâve reacted very differently. Australiaâs been very strategic in banning travel to certain places. And of course, those places you would not want to travel to at the time when thereâs an outbreak like China, Italy, Iran, etc.. I was also asked the question on ABC Tasmania: should the Tasmanians restrict domestic travel to Tasmania? At the time, they had a single case. And I said to them, if you have one case, you most likely have more. You will not prevent the entry of the virus into Tasmania. But what restricting travel can do is restrict the number of people who are seeding that area with virus and make it more manageable. So itâs a question of timing. As I was saying to you earlier, the cost-benefit of closing off travel has to be weighed very carefully because the economic impacts are very great. So I think itâs a case by case basis. Ultimately, the planet is now seeded. And weâre moving into the stage of exponential growth and that it will affect travel very severely, where in all likelihood, travel will be very much curtailed now.
Sunanda Creagh: And this questionâs from our reader, David. He wants to know: with the flu killing more people each year than coronavirus and mostly the same demographic, why is this outbreak receiving so much attention? Canât we just catch the flu just as easily without cancelling events and travel plans?
Lisa Sedger: Yes, and I understand the question. Flu exists. We get it seasonally every year and then we get pandemic flu. And yes, people do die from influenza. I think it was 16,000 people in the US died last US winter. But the issue with this virus is that we donât yet know how to treat it particularly well. Weâre trialling anti-viral drugs in China at the very moment. Thereâs clinical trials on experimental drugs. Thereâs drugs that doctors are using. But until that data comes in and we actually know what regime of anti-viral drugs (are best) to use, then we donât really yet know how to treat it with anti-viral drugs. The other thing is with flu, we have a vaccine. People can take the vaccine. Somebody gets sick in their family, the other family members can take the vaccine and prevent the spread of the virus. So the difference is with flu, we have ways to control it. We know about the disease. We know how it presents. This virus, weâre still understanding the clinical presentation and in different cohorts. So different age groups, different countries, different situations, weâre still understanding the symptoms. And we donât yet fully know how to control it by antivirals. And we donât have a vaccine yet.
Michael Wallach: Can I just add to that a bit? I think one of the reasons weâre being so careful is when it broke and Wuhan, at the beginning the mortality rate was extremely high. And with related viruses like SARS, and MERS that went as high as 35%, whereas flu mortality rates is usually around 0.1%. So it was that very high mortality rate that gave a real shock. Had it continued, it would have been devastating. Weâre very fortunate that now we see it dropping down to the 2 to 3% level and some say much lower.
Lisa Sedger: And we also know now that some people get COVID, have very minimal symptoms and almost donât even know that theyâve been sick. So I think that fear and anxiety, in that sense, is lowering.
Sunanda Creagh: And Molly wants to know: how far off is a vaccine?
Michael Wallach: So, we are working on vaccines in Australia. The group in Melbourne was the first to be able to isolate and grow the virus. And Iâve been in touch with them, in fact, this morning. Weâre working collaboratively nationally as well as internationally, collaborating with people at Stanford Medical School who through Stanford, in collaborations we have with them, we have worldwide about 15 vaccine projects going, plus all sorts of industry companies are aiming to make vaccines. In fact, one company in Israel early on announced that they believe that they can get to a vaccine within a few weeks. The problem with the vaccine is you may produce it even quickly, but itâs testing it and making sure that itâs actually going to help. Thereâs a fear, with COVID-19, that if it is not formulated correctly, to make a long story short, it can actually exacerbate the disease. So everyone has to take it slowly and carefully so that we donât actually cause more problems than we currently have. But Iâm optimistic and believe that weâll get there. The WHO declared it would take 18 months. I would like to present a more optimistic view, not based on anything that substantial, but I think we can do better than that. And it is a great learning curve for the next time this happens.
Lisa Sedger: Can I make a comment on that, too? Recently, weâve just seen Africa experience a very significant outbreak of Ebola virus, and thereâs been an experimental vaccine thatâs been administered that has largely controlled that outbreak. I think the people working in vaccines and the people who do the safety and efficacy studies, weâve learnt a lot from how to administer vaccines, how to get the data we need to show safety more quickly than we might have in the past. So in the sense weâve learnt, weâre learning lessons constantly from viral outbreaks. It might not be the same virus, might not be the same country, even the same continent. But weâre learning how to do these things more efficiently and more quickly. And always the issue is weighing up safety versus the ethics of the need to administer all get it, get the drug out there as quickly as possible.
Sunanda Creagh: This reader asks: isnât lining up at fever clinics for tests just going to spread it even more?
Michael Wallach: So for sure, the way in which people are processed at clinics is crucial and the minimal distance you should keep from a person whoâs infected is, according again to the WHO, is one metre. So the clinics have to ensure that spread is minimised, not only spread between people waiting in line, but to the health workers themselves. Weâve had real problems for health workers in China. Several died. And we face that problem here. One of the things we have to do is ensure that we protect our health workers because otherwise theyâre not going to want to go in and actually see the patients. Unfortunately, masks alone do not work. We canât rely on them. So itâs a problem. In Israel, for example, testing for COVID-19, takes place in oneâs home. An ambulance pulls up and takes the swab and then takes it to the lab. That actually would be the ideal approach. True, the ambulance services in Israel now are swamped and having great difficulty in coping. But as much as we can keep people separated from each other when theyâre infected, itâs crucial for the success of any campaign.
Sunanda Creagh: And these questions from Jake. He wants to know for people like myself living in Victoria. How likely is it that we can catch the virus and is hand-washing really the only thing we can be doing to protect ourselves?
Lisa Sedger: I think we now know that the virus is definitely in Australia. If you go to the New South Wales or Victorian Health government websites, you can see them update the statistics daily, even less than a day so that the truth is itâs here and itâs probably in more people than we realise because we havenât tested as many people and we now realise some people are asymptomatic or donât show classic flu like symptoms. So itâs here and you canât say that youâre not going to get sick. Alright? Thatâs the first thing to say. The second thing is, though, we can minimise what we do. Okay. So we can wash our hands constantly. We can try not to touch our face, our eyes, our ears, our nose. Weâve learned, for example, even how do you dispose of a tissue when you sneeze or cough or, you know, sneeze into your elbow? So itâs just about common sense. This is what I think. Itâs no different really than protecting yourself from any respiratory virus infection. So seasonal flu or even a pandemic flu.
Sunanda Creagh: And how do you dispose of a tissue safely?
Lisa Sedger: Well, I guess you fold it in and then you put - you donât touch it, you donât put it up your sleeve, OK? - you put it in the garbage bin and wash your hands afterwards.
Sunanda Creagh: Michael would like to know: what can we learn from other countries that are handling this well? He says basically South Korea, as far as I can tell.
Michael Wallach: So the country that handled this outbreak the best so far has been Taiwan. The Taiwanese have been amazing in the sense that after the pandemic commenced in China, many Taiwanese returned to Taiwan. And you would have expected theyâd seed that island very strongly and it would be a major outbreak. They were ready before the pandemic commenced. And that was largely because they went through a SARS outbreak. Previously, they had in place all the testing, all the people. They have the best health system in the world. And they kept the numbers down to 45 cases during a period when in China it was going into the tens of thousands. And they should be commended on that. Itâs quite amazing the way they did that. The issue now in Taiwan, which concerns them, is in the end, thatâs a great start. But their population now is unexposed and susceptible. So how do you release them from this sort of quarantine situation? That is the next phase. And thatâs what weâre looking to see how that works, because same in Wuhan. The minute you put everyone back out to work and in the street, will there be a second wave? Most virologists, I think, would expect there will be a major second wave, third wave and maybe continued into the future. So we have to continue with our preparedness and with the hope that the vaccine will come into effect sooner rather than later. And then bringing the quarantine approach, enabling that peak of viral infection to occur when the vaccine is available. That would be the goal.
Lisa Sedger: If I could just add one point there. When you look at the number of cases on a per day basis in Wuhan, it was escalating very quickly. And then they brought in their very strict quarantine and self-isolation. But the cases continued to increase until a point where it started to look like it was under control and going down. And that was after two weeks. So quarantine only works until after the quarantine period, because only after that will you see the effect. So I would argue thereâs two factors for why isolation worked in Wuhan: One was you limited the spread through the self-isolation and imposed quarantine, but at the same time, the number of people who are infected and asymptomatic were building their own immunity. The number of people who were infected and sick but who survived, one would imagine, have a robust immune response to that virus. So at the same time as limiting spread, you have also slowly built or actually quite quickly built a community with much higher levels of what we call herd immunity. So this second outbreak may come, but it may be considerably less significant.
Michael Wallach: In fact, that the areas where there are the major outbreaks maybe have better herd immunity than places where you keep it down to nothing. So it works both ways.
Sunanda Creagh: And Jane would like to know: when do we stop testing for this disease and basically just assume that everybody with the sniffles has it?
Michael Wallach: So first of all, the major symptoms are not sniffles, they are fever and coughing and shortness of breath. Itâs the sniffles, though, that causes it to be spreadable more easily. Thatâs a good question: what the health authorities will decide to do at various stages of this pandemic. Weâre now at what I would consider the early seeding phase. The world is now seeded with virus and different countries were going through exponential phases like described in Wuhan at different times. And how do they handle that will be a crucial question. Iâve seen all the different approaches from US, Israel, Iran. I think that a mixture of very strategic quarantine with travel restrictions, with bringing in other types of⊠certainly health authorities will need to control the number of beds that are being occupied. For example, again, in Israel, they just went over their bed limits, so patients are starting to be treated at home. So at some point, I think depending on how the epidemic goes, if we can keep it under control, we can keep the testing going. We can keep control. If the exponential rise is too fast, we will lose control and the testing will become meaningless. So the hope is that things will be sorted and I think Australia has the opportunity to do really well and big decisions have to be made now.
Lisa Sedger: Thereâs already a paper just this week published in The Lancet that profiles survivors versus those who have succumbed from the infection. And weâre starting to learn what some of those factors are. So as as clinicians can better predict who are likely to be the more seriously ill people, they can better predict who should go to hospital for treatment, and as Michael has said, who are better actually just treated at home.
Sunanda Creagh: And Dr. Sedger, Kardia would like to know: how does this virus respond to cold or warm temperatures? Is it like the flu, which thrives in cold weather?
Lisa Sedger: I have heard so many different things about this. I will be completely honest and say Iâm not certain that we really know. What we know is when this high humidity viruses can exist for longer because they donât dry out. So that envelope we talked about is less likely to be dried out. And once thatâs dried out, the virus is less infective. Itâs not actually infective at all if itâs disrupted that envelope. But whether it likes cold temperatures, high temperatures, we think itâs not a warm temperature virus. We think itâs more a cold temperature virus. Chinaâs just been going through their winter. Maybe one of the reasons itâs been big in Italy is theyâve just had winter. We also think the coexistence of seasonal flu in Italy at the same time is probably one of the factors thatâs made it more severe. So, yeah, look, different circumstances in different countries, different climates. Itâs not just about climate, though. Itâs about susceptibility of various populations. Therefore, itâs a hard question to answer (at the moment).
Michael Wallach: Look, I would say in working in infectious diseases for many years, itâs a very difficult thing to predict. Remember with, it doesnât matter which disease I was working on, everyone said it canât transmit in dry climates. And it transmitted beautifully in the desert. And you think everythingâs totally dry and it still transmits and vice versa.
Lisa Sedger: Well, youâve got MERS is another coronavirus, which is your Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome, and thatâs in the desert climates. So thatâs why I wanted to hedge my bets on my answer.
Sunanda Creagh: And Professor Wallach, this reader wants to know: once youâve recovered from coronavirus, can you just go back to your normal, non-isolating life?
Michael Wallach: So the current understanding, according to colleagues also in the U.S., is if you go through one infection, youâre probably rendered immune against re-infection. There have been reports of cases of people getting re-infected. But the opinion that I heard so far is that itâs probably recurrence of the same infection that probably went down in terms of clinical symptoms. But the virus remained that just came back up. It happens with the flu all the time. The question is, what should be your behaviour after you go through a bout? I guess I would still be careful, which Lisa can maybe add to, it could be that the virus will continue to mutate. Although again, I fortunately heard this morning that theyâre not that worried about this virus mutating at the rate that flu does. And weâre hopeful that we will develop herd immunity. People have gone through it then will be fairly safe unless, you have some immune disorder. And then it will become part of our environment just like flu is.
Sunanda Creagh: And hereâs a question from me. It seems like thereâs two camps. Thereâs the people who genuinely really concerned, quite worried about the situation. We see that in the panic buying. And then thereâs the other camp of people who are saying itâs all been blown up. Itâs all hype. We donât really need to worry about it. Itâs too early to panic. And I just wondered, how do you reconcile those two views out there in the community?
Michael Wallach: So early on in this outbreak, when I was interviewed also on the ABC and speaking to other groups, I took a very low panic view, maybe because Iâve been thinking about a pandemic for many years. And for me, it was always not a question of if, but when. I actually look at this, in a way, in a positive sense. Weâre facing a pandemic that, yeah, as terrible as it is, is nothing in comparison to what could be if itâs a pandemic flu. For example, we experienced the Spanish flu in 1918, which killed somewhere between 20 to 50 million people. So the order of magnitude of mortality right now is extremely low compared to other potential pandemics. If you take China out of the equation, weâre at about 1500 people who died worldwide. Thatâs not to say we shouldnât show great respect for the value of their lives. Itâs mainly very elderly people with complicating illnesses and probably would have had the same effect if they were infected by flu. So my take on this whole thing is we all have to stay calm. We all have to accept the fact that this is part of nature. These viruses are out there all the time. We know them. I can detect now flu viruses in wildlife, birds that are coming into this country now, that can mutate and start affecting humans. So we have to be prepared. We have to face up to them, together in a collaborative way, in a scientific and professional way. And we could win. If we panic and react the way the market is, for example, of course, thatâs thatâs an improper way to react. Rather, this is part of being, of our biology. Viruses exist that can hurt us and they will always exist.
Lisa Sedger: Yeah. Look, I think there are a few factors that we can really learn from. So one is to work out where these viruses come from. And a lot of these RNA viruses exist in bats. They seem to be transmitted into wild animals through bat droppings. And I think one of the lessons we, the world all over, might need to learn is how we deal with the marketing and selling of wild animals that are then used for foods. That may then prevent these viruses from getting into the human population. So I think there are lessons to be learned, number one. But Michael, I would disagree with you in one sense âthat it is maybe not as bad as pandemic fluâ, on the other hand: we do have vaccines for flu, we do have anti-virals. And we have a whole world that has various levels of immunity to flu and different strains of flu. Whereas this virus is entering into a naive (non)-immune population. And thatâs whatâs so significant to start with. It may be that as our immunity at a population level increases, as a disease this will become far less significant. But the first outbreak of it in a naive, (non)-immune, (and a) ânaive populationâ will always have the highest level of morbidity and mortality. And thatâs where we have learned from other diseases like Ebola. As I mentioned, what we already know about flu, how we already control flu and the development of new and novel antiviral agents will be just as effective and important, I believe, as will the development of vaccines. So I think thereâs a lot to learn to prevent this or limit, I should say, to limit these the severity of the outbreak and maybe even prevent it from happening again. As I say, if we stop trapping wild animals and eating them, we might prevent the outbreak of some of these type of RNA viruses.
Michael Wallach: So I certainly agree with that. And China is now putting into law a restriction on the sale of wildlife in their markets. What Iâm trying to do, and I hope we both agree, is that in proportion to, for example, influenza, even seasonal flu that killed in one year I think up to 600,000 people worldwide, Iâm just trying to put things into proportion. To prevent people from panicking. To understand that, yes, this is affecting the elderly. And anyone who is elderly, suffering from heart or respiratory conditions would certainly isolate themselves. So where my wifeâs parents live, where they live in a retirement village, they made a decision to close off the entire village. Nobodyâs allowed in, as a means of preventing - because theyâre an elderly population - people bringing in COVID-19 and infecting that area. And I certainly agree with that sort of strategy.
Sunanda Creagh: And John would like to know: are the death rates likely to be lower in a country like Australia with lower rates of smoking than places such as China, Iran and Indonesia?
Lisa Sedger: Again, I think this is a little bit we have to watch and just wait and see. Itâs very hard to predict these things. It was intriguing that some of the highest death rates in China appeared to be men as well as just the elderly. And that might be because thereâs a high rate of long term smoking. So almost like an endemic lung pathology within that community that somehow exacerbated the disease. In Australia, we may find that there are different populations that are the most at risk. So we know, for example, the virus uses a receptor to get inside of cells that is a protein present on cardiac tissue. So people with known cardiac conditions may turn out to be at higher risk. And in a non-smoking type country, maybe people with existing heart conditions will turn out to be the most at risk. In America, we might find something quite different. What we might find is itâs more socio-economic. Maybe people without health insurance. Maybe people who are homeless and live on the streets will turn out to be the most affected because they have limited resources to be able to get treatment and they canât afford treatment. So I think each country will be different. We mentioned earlier Italy has one of the highest fatality rates at the moment. That may be because they actually have a large number of people within their population that are over 65. So it might actually be not that surprising given that demographic. It might also be that theyâve had an outbreak of seasonal flu at the same time. We donât know whether one type of virus limits the other. Itâs quite possible you can get co-infections and thatâs where people get the most sick. I think itâs going to pan out in different countries slightly differently. I think itâs a case of watch this space.
Michael Wallach: The other thing, just on the rate of transmission. What they go according to is the people who show up to the clinic. And the results from a study done in China indicate that they may have only picked up 5% of the people that have COVID-19. So itâs about 20-fold more than actually recorded because itâs mild and very little symptoms. The other thing thatâs becoming a little disconcerting for scientists is there may be two strains of the virus. And the initial outbreak, as I said, the mortality rate was very high. It could be the virus, in order to transmit, went through a mutation that aided its transmission. And I would hope that would probably occur in pandemic flu. Maybe a little less pathogenic than the original strain was. I was surprised to see at the beginning such high mortality and then how it dropped down. Thatâs the results also put online by the CDC. And weâre looking and following that.
Lisa Sedger: Yes, viral evolution is a really key topic at the moment. We think RNA viruses and the rate that they mutate is much higher than DNA viruses. And itâs really a factor of how quickly the virus mutates and how quickly a personâs immune response is able to effectively control the virus replication. So the viruses that sometimes persist longer in a community are not necessarily the most virulent. So what we might also be seeing is a population, a group within the population who get a less severe disease, maybe even asymptomatic, but that may, long term, prove to be the bigger - how could I put this? - the bigger population of viruses that exist within that community.
Sunanda Creagh: And Michael would like to know: if I could shrink myself down to microscopic size and watch a virus invade a cell, what would I see?
Lisa Sedger: Well, a virus is not like a bacteria. A bacteria is a entity all of its own, and it can replicate and make another copy of itself and grow on a nutrient source. A virus, however, is sometimes called a non-living entity because outside of a human cell, it canât replicate. It just exists as an entity. A virus is essentially just a piece of DNA, which is, you know, in the nucleus of every cell. Itâs what our chromosomes are made of. So itâs either DNA or RNA surrounded by a protein coat and sometimes itâs also a lipid-based envelope outside of that, again. The virus will somehow encounter a cell. And for respiratory viruses, itâs largely by us inhaling water vapour droplets. They may contain hundreds of viruses. Those viruses then will attach or be exposed to our respiratory epithelium. If the virus can actually bind to the respiratory epithelium cell, then it might get inside. Once inside, it may or may not have the capacity to actually undergo replication, but it has to uncoat from that protein shell. Then the nucleic acid, the DNA or RNA has to make another copy of itself. Then all the genes that are in the virus have to get expressed as proteins. They then reassemble into a new viral particle and then the virus will get out of the cell. Sometimes it lyses (breaks) the cell, sometimes it will just buds out from the cell and leave the cell intact. And thatâs what a virus is. Thatâs why we, some people call them living or non-living because they can only replicate in inside a cell, a host cell.
Michael Wallach: And itâs not like viruses have a will. So if they want to do this, itâs just part of evolution.
Lisa Sedger: Yes, Iâm never a favour of the argument you sometimes see people say âitâs warfare, itâs the virus vs. immune system!â But thereâs no will involved, itâs just capacity of life to replicate itself.
Sunanda Creagh: And Deidre writes in to say, I heard on the radio today that half the population is likely to get this. And with, say, a 1% death rate, the body count will add up. And I wondered what you thought of that.
Michael Wallach: So there was an announcement actually by Angela Merkel preparing Germany for 70% of the population being infected. Lisa may say the number is lower, I donât know, until we build up herd immunity. The question of the mortality rate, as I alluded to before, I think based on what again, CDC and WHO are writing, is probably overestimated. Some estimate the mortality rate as being much lower. Thatâs not to say⊠every death is a family and has to be looked at and be concerned about. So again, I think and would like to hope that as we develop new vaccines, as we develop drugs, as we develop approaches to quarantine people, test them, keep them at home, isolate them, weâll get the mortality rate under control. And Iâm going to express an optimistic view. This world has amazing capabilities of doing amazing science. And if we apply it and work together, I think we can control this problem.
Lisa Sedger: Yes, absolutely. I would endorse that. And Iâd say that the mortality rates at the moment simply reflect who is being tested. And itâs primarily people who are turning up with symptoms. But weâre now beginning to appreciate that there is a large number of people who could be quite asymptomatic, who are never tested. This virus will certainly have infected many more people than will be tested. And if we did have surveillance of every single person being tested, then thereâs two questions here: Are you testing for the presence of the virus? If theyâve had virtually no symptoms and not a big illness, you might not find the virus. But if we test for the presence of an immune response to the virus, we would truly know how many people have been infected. And then we could get a true estimate or at least a much closer estimate of what the mortality rate really is. So at the moment, thereâs hyperbole.
Sunanda Creagh: And Catherine asks, what is the likelihood of transmission through using a public swimming pool?
Lisa Sedger: I would think quite small because a) the virus would be quite diluted in a swimming pool. Secondly, swimming pools are all treated with chlorine, for example, and chlorine is a very effective anti-viral agent. Youâd have to drink a lot of swimming pool water to get the virus.
Michael Wallach: I agree with that.
Sunanda Creagh: Candy would like to know: there are conflicting symptoms lists circulating on Facebook. One says it starts with a dry cough and if your nose is running, it is not COVID-19, which I suspect is incorrect. Can we please have an accurate list?
Michael Wallach: So, again, the major symptoms are, in fact, the cough and shortness of breath and fever. But, itâs not to say itâs not possible that youâll have also upper respiratory effects. The virus goes into the lung and attaches to the alveolar cells or to the cells that make up our air sacs and that help our breathing. And it has to get there to really cause this disease. So if thereâs upper respiratory involvement, which includes sneezing and runny nose, et cetera, itâs probably not the main effect of the virus. Again, I would say if you see that somebody is sneezing and wheezing and and thatâs it, itâs probably an allergy, but it does frighten people. I was on the train this morning, and I know if I, God forbid, sneezed the whole train would empty out pretty quickly.
Lisa Sedger: You know, weâre just coming into winter. And actually, itâs a really good question because at the moment, whatâs building is a sense of fear. But we must keep in perspective that there will also still be the normal seasonal cases of flu. So just because somebody sneezes or has a sore throat does not mean that theyâve got COVID-19. And we need to make sure, I think itâs really important that we donât stigmatise people who have symptoms because it may not even be COVID. And weâre all at risk from any respiratory tract infections and already have been for years. Thatâs not a new thing. We just need to keep things in perspective.
Sunanda Creagh: A question from Karen: can you catch it twice?
Lisa Sedger: Normally, I would have said no, because we imagine that thereâs a good immune response that will then provide you protection from re-infection. Thatâs what our immune system does. But this is a new virus. We donât yet fully understand how our immune system clears it. We donât know whether virus can remain for a longer period of time. I would would say, though, that there are only a few cases of people who have been treated, appear to have recovered, theyâve gone home, theyâve then had another relapse. Thereâs only a very few number of cases that have been like that. So for all intents and purposes, I donât think thatâs something we should fear and itâs not something weâve seen with the previous SARS outbreak in 2003.
Sunanda Creagh: And Tim would like to know: how will quarantine work in a family?
Lisa Sedger: Yeah, itâs interesting, isnât it? We think of quarantine as being away from work or away from public places. But really, if you have been infected, then the people in your family are as at risk as your work colleagues would be at work. Again, I think itâs about just common sense. Donât share food utensils, wash your hands, donât keep touching your face and your mouth and your nose. Get rid of tissues in a nice sort of clean manner. Itâs about minimising transmission.
Michael Wallach: Let me just add to that, that all the data indicates that children likely will only get very mild symptoms, if at all. So if youâre a family member and youâre worried about your children, this is one time that you can be happy about this. All the results so far indicate that children aged zero to nine, thereâs not been a single death.
Lisa Sedger: Whereas what we do know is the elderly appear to be more susceptible to a more severe disease. So thatâs where if Iâm sick, itâs better not to go and visit my grandparents or something like that. Thatâs where quarantine within the family works in a practical sense.
Sunanda Creagh: And just to finish up, is there anything else that youâd like to add?
Lisa Sedger: Yeah, I think Iâd just want to finish with a really positive note. I mean, we live in an amazing era of medical research and science. Within within a very, very short period of time, parts of the virus had been sequenced. We now track the virus in its entire sequence. We know, we have clinical trials for the drugs. We have people working on vaccines. We have epidemiologists better understanding the disease susceptibility within a population. I mean, we learn a lot from other existing outbreaks of infectious diseases. And I remain positive that, you know, the medical and scientific community working together will be able to solve this. Iâm quite confident that thereâs a really strong response. Thatâs not to diminish that people have died and itâs been tragic. But we live in an era where weâre exposed to infectious agents and we are getting better and better at controlling most of those infections.
Michael Wallach: So Iâll just add and put in a plug for a program Iâm very much involved with called Spark working with people at Stanford. We established a program for exactly this time, when thereâs sudden outbreaks. And the program now involves 23 countries and around 70 institutions, all working together for outbreaks of Zika, Ebola and now coronavirus. It gives me great hope that, apart from what you said, weâre now working together collaboratively like never before. Weâre putting our egos outside and weâre saying we have social responsibility to do better. Certainly, in the case of a pandemic. And weâre doing it. And weâre very proud to be able to say we have 15 projects going on now collaboratively that we just formed over the past two weeks, together with our colleagues all over the world. I also believe in a very bright future.
Production creditsRecording by postgraduate.futures at the University of Technology Sydney.
Audio editing by Sunanda Creagh.
Theme beats by Unkle Ho from Elefant Traks.
Read more: Coronavirus is stressful. Here are some ways to cope with the anxiety
-
Shutterstock
Are we alone in the Universe? The expert opinion on that, it turns out, is surprisingly consistent.
âIs there other life in the Universe? I would say: probably,â Daniel Zucker, Associate Professor of astronomy at Macquarie University, tells astrophysics student and The Conversationâs editorial intern Antonio Tarquinio on todayâs podcast episode.
âI think that we will discover life outside of Earth in my lifetime. If not that, then in your lifetime,â says his fellow Macquarie University colleague, Professor Orsola De Marco.
And Lee Spitler, a Senior Lecturer and astronomy researcher at the same institution, was similarly optimistic: âI think thereâs a high likelihood that we are not alone in the Universe.â
The big question, however, is what that life might look like.
Read more: The Dish in Parkes is scanning the southern Milky Way, searching for alien signals
Weâre also hearing from Danny C Price, project scientist for the Breakthrough Listen project scanning the southern skies for unusual patterns, on what the search for alien intelligence looks like in real life - and what itâs yielded so far.
The Parkes radio telescope is scanning the southern skies, searching for signals from intelligent alien life. AAP/MICK TSIKASRead more: 'The size, the grandeur, the peacefulness of being in the dark': what it's like to study space at Siding Spring Observatory
New to podcasts?Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is here.
Additional audio credits
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Lucky Stars by Podington Bear, from Free Music Archive
Illumination by Kai Engel, from Free Music Archive
Podcast episode recorded and edited by Antonio Tarquinio.
Lead imageShutterstock
-
Shutterstock
Youâve heard of dark matter. Youâve probably heard thereâs a fair bit of it out there in space, and that astronomers donât know for sure what it is.
But, strange as dark matter is, thereâs an even more mysterious thing out there in the Universe â and quite a lot of it.
Dark energy, believed to be responsible for the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe, makes up the vast majority of space.
Today, editorial intern and astrophysics student Cameron Furlong, dives into what we know about dark energy and what it means for our place in the Universe.
Read more: The Dish in Parkes is scanning the southern Milky Way, searching for alien signals
New to podcasts?Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is here.
Additional audio credits
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Pulsars by Podington Bear, from Free Music Archive
Podcast episode recorded and edited by Cameron Furlong.
Lead imageShutterstock
Read more: 'The size, the grandeur, the peacefulness of being in the dark': what it's like to study space at Siding Spring Observatory
-
When we are imagining this time, next year, are we limiting our thinking to how we avoid the conditions we faced in this summer? Or are there bigger questions we can ask? Shutterstock
Editorâs note: Today, on Trust Me, Iâm An Expert, we hear from Clare Cooper, design lecturer at the University of Sydney, on how futuring techniques can help us think collectively about life under a drastically hotter climate. Her accompanying essay is below.
Australians, no matter where we are, are coming to acknowledge that our summers â and our autumns, winters and springs â are forever changed.
We are, bit by bit, reviewing our assumptions. Whether we need to radically rethink our calendars, or question where and how we rebuild homes and towns, we face a choice: collective, creative adaptation or increased devastation.
How might this time next year feel - anxious, hot and sticky? How might it smell - like bushfire smoke? How might it taste - would seafood and berries still be on the menu in future summers as our climate changes? (One of my favourite placards at a recent climate rally was âshit climate = shit wineâ).
When we think about this time next year, are we freaking out, or are we futuring?
How might the Australian summer of the future look, taste, smell? ShutterstockRead more: Why we should make time for remembering the future
Collaborative futuring in a climate crisisâFuturingâ is sometimes called futures studies, futurology, scenario design or foresight thinking. It has been used in the business world for decades.
Futuring means thinking systematically about the future, drawing on scientific data, analysing trends, imagining scenarios (both plausible and unlikely) and thinking creatively. A crucial part of the process is thinking hard about the kind of future we might want to avoid and the steps needed to work toward a certain desired future.
But futurists arenât magical people who sweep in and solve problems for you. They facilitate discussions and collaboration but the answers ultimately come from communities themselves. Artists and writers have been creatively imagining the future for millennia. Futuring is a crucial part of design and culture-building.
My research looks at how futuring can help communities work toward a just and fair transition to a drastically warmer world and greater weather extremes.
Collaborative futuring invites audiences to respond to probable, possible, plausible and preposterous future scenarios as the climate crisis sets in. This process can reveal assumptions, biases and possible courses of action.
Cars lie damaged after a surprise hailstorm hit Canberra in January. Extreme weather events are predicted to worsen as the climate changes. AAP Image/Mick TsikasRead more: How we forecast future technologies
Getting creativeFuturing is not predicting futures.
Itâs a way of mixing informed projections with imaginative critical design to invite us to think differently about our current predicaments. That can help us step back from the moment of panic and instead proactively design steps to change things for the better â not 20 years from now, but from today.
If you peeked into a futuring workshop with adults, you might see a lot of lively conversations and a bunch of post-it notes. For kids, you might see them making collages, or creating cardboard prototypes of emerging technology.
You might have done some futuring today, talking with friends and family about changes you might make as it becomes obvious our summers will grow only hotter.
Iâve seen futuring occur at my daughterâs school, where children are invited to imagine being on the other side of a difficult problem, and then work out the steps needed to get there.
13-year-old protester Izzy Raj-Seppings poses for a photograph outside of Kirribilli House in Sydney late last year. AAP Image/Steven SaphoreRead more: 'This situation brings me to despair': two reef scientists share their climate grief
Futuring a just transition to a warmer worldWhen we are imagining this time next year, are we limiting our (mostly city-dwelling) thinking to how we avoid the conditions we faced in this summer?
For example, are we thinking about staying away from bushfire-prone areas, or buying air purifiers and face masks? For those who can afford it, are we thinking about booking extended overseas holidays?
Or are we challenging each other to think beyond such avoidance strategies: to imagine a post-Murdoch press and a post-fossil fuel lobby future? Can we imagine ways to respond to extreme weather beyond individual prepping?
Including a diverse range of voices, especially Indigenous community members, is crucial to a just transition to a warmer world. We canât allow a changed climate to mean comfortable adaptation for a wealthy elite while everyone else suffers.
Many of us have joined climate protests in recent months and years.
But more work needs to be done and bigger questions asked. What steps are needed to meet demands for public ownership of a renewable energy system: more support for those battling and displaced by bushfires? How do we work toward First Nations justice, including funding for Indigenous-led land management, jobs on Country, and land and water rights?
It is not enough to pin an image of our future to a wall and pray we get there.
Short term fixes in the form of drought or emergency relief wonât address the fact that extreme weather events are not going away.
Responsible, useful futuring mixes equal parts of imagination and informed projections. Itâs not wild speculation. Futuring practitioners draw on scientific and social data, and weave it with the stories, concerns and desires of those present to find new ways into a problem.
Short term fixes in the form of drought or emergency relief wonât address the fact that extreme weather events are not going away. ShutterstockRead more: What would a fair energy transition look like?
Speaking of catastrophe to avoid itFormer Labor prime minister Paul Keating last year criticised the Morrison government for what he saw as a lack of vision:
If you look, there is no panorama. Thereâs no vista. Thereâs no shape. Thereâs no talk about where Australia fits in the world.
Prime Minister Scott Morrisonâs performance during the unfolding bushfire horrors â widely perceived as lacklustre â suggests growing thirst for bolder vision on dealing with âthe new normal.â
In their book Design and the Question of History, design scholars Tony Fry, Clive Dilnot and Susan Stewart argue that we should speak of catastrophe âin order to avoid itâ.
Polish-born sociologist Zygmunt Bauman wrote
prophesying the advent of that catastrophe as passionately and vociferously as we can manage is the sole chance of making the unavoidable avoidable â and perhaps even the inevitable impossible to happen.
We owe it to those worst affected by the climate crisis â and to ourselves â to dedicate time to collaborative futuring as we rethink life in an increasingly hostile climate.
The next time youâre having a chat about this time, next year, are you collectively fretting or collaboratively futuring?
New to podcasts?Everything you need to know about how to listen to a podcast is here.
Additional audio credits
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Not Much by Podington Bear, from Free Music Archive
Above Us by David Szesztay, from Free Music Archive
Pshaw by Podington Bear, from Free Music Archive
Podcast episode recorded and edited by Sunanda Creagh.
Lead imageShutterstock
Clare M. Cooper has an ongoing residential subsidy from Inner West Council for Frontyard Projects, a community research space. She is a member of the NTEU and Workers for Climate Action.
-
The Parkes radio telescope can detect extremely weak signals coming from the most distant parts of the Universe. Shutterstock
For John Sarkissian, operations scientist at the CSIRO Parkes radio telescope, astronomy has been his lifeâs passion â starting from the age of six.
âWhen I was six years old, I watched Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin walk on the Moon,â he says of the radio telescope made famous in the film The Dish.
âIn fact, on the cover of my year nine mathematics textbook was a painting of the Parkes radio telescope. I remember sitting in the class staring at the painting and daydreaming working there one day. And so here I am now, 40 some years later.â
Today, on Trust Me Iâm An Expert, editorial intern Antonio Tarquinio speaks to Sarkissian about the research underway at one of Australiaâs most famous astronomical research facilities including:
the role Parkes is playing right now in the search for extra-terrestrial intelligence
how the telescope detects extremely weak signals coming from the most distant parts of the Universe
why even a light breeze can imperil the dish unless itâs in the right position
how the explosion of phones, wi-fi and radio frequency interference is affecting research in the once-deserted Parkes location.
And Sarkissianâs own take on whether Parkes will help find alien life?
âWell, as of today, the only place we know of the entire Universe that there is definitely life is right here on Earth,â he says.
âAnd what does that say? It says that we should appreciate our place in the Universe a little more.â
Read more: 'The size, the grandeur, the peacefulness of being in the dark': what it's like to study space at Siding Spring Observatory
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Read more: Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to
Additional audio
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Extra Dimension by Kri Tik, from Free Music Archive
ImagesShutterstock
Read more: Darkness is disappearing and that's bad news for astronomy
-
Today we hear about some of the fascinating space research underway at Siding Spring Observatory â and how, despite gruelling hours and endless paperwork, astronomers retain their sense of wonder for the night sky. Shutterstock
How did our galaxy form? How do galaxies evolve over time? Where did the Sunâs lost siblings end up?
Three hours north-east of Parkes lies a remote astronomical research facility, unpolluted by city lights, where researchers are collecting vast amounts of data in an effort to unlock some of the biggest questions about our Universe.
Siding Spring Observatory, or SSO, is one of Australiaâs top sites for astronomical research. Youâve probably heard of the Parkes telescope, made famous by the movie The Dish, but SSO is also a key character in Australiaâs space research story.
In this episode, astrophysics student and Conversation intern Cameron Furlong goes to SSO to check out the huge Anglo Australian Telescope (AAT), the largest optical telescope in Australia.
Siding Spring Observatory, north east of Parkes. ShutterstockRead more: Darkness is disappearing and that's bad news for astronomy
And we hear about Huntsman, a new specialised telescope that uses off-the-shelf Canon camera lenses â a bit like those you see sports photographers using at the cricket or the footy â to study very faint regions of space around other galaxies.
Students use telescopes to observe the night sky near Coonabarabran, not far from SSO. Cameron FurlongListen in to hear more about some of the most fascinating space research underway in Australia â and how, despite gruelling hours and endless paperwork, astronomers retain their sense of wonder for the night sky.
âFor me, it means remembering how small I am in this enormous Universe. I think itâs very easy to forget, when you go about your daily life,â said Richard McDermid, an ARC Future Fellow and astronomer at Macquarie University.
âItâs nice to get back into it to a dark place and having a clear sky. And then you get to remember all the interesting and fascinating things, the size, the grandeur and the peacefulness of being in the dark.â
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Read more: Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to
Additional audio
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Lucky Stars by Podington Bear from Free Music Archive.
Slimheart by Blue Dot Sessions from Free Music Archive.
Illumination by Kai Engel from Free Music Archive.
Phase 2 by Xylo-Ziko from Free Music Archive.
Extra Dimensions by Kri Tik from Free Music Archive.
Pure Water by MeydÀn, from Free Music Archive.
ImagesShutterstock
Cameron Furlong
Read more: Antibiotic resistant superbugs kill 32 plane-loads of people a week. We can all help fight back
-
Antibiotics can be a wonder for treating bacterial infections â but we need to be cautious in how we use them. From shutterstock.com
You might think antibiotic resistance is something to worry about in the distant future. But itâs already having a deadly impact today.
The number of people dying globally every week from antibiotic resistant infections is equivalent to 32 Boeing 747s full of people. And if that sounds scary, the projections for the future are even scarier.
On todayâs episode of Trust Me, Iâm An Expert we ask you to imagine a future where more and more antibiotics donât work any more â and hear from researchers about how you can help scientists fight back.
Read more: 'This is going to affect how we determine time since death': how studying body donors in the bush is changing forensic science
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Read more: Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to
Additional audio
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Airliner by Podington Bear from Free Music Archive.
ImagesShutterstock
-
Lithium ion batteries revolutionised the way we use, manufacture and charge our devices. Theyâre used to power mobile phones, laptops and even electric cars. Shutterstock
British-born scientist M. Stanley Whittingham, of Binghamton University, was one of three scientists who won the 2019 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for their work developing lithium-ion batteries.
L-R: John Goodenough; Stanley Whittingham; Akira Yoshino, the three scientists who won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry this year for their work developing lithium-ion batteries. Niklas Elmehed/Royal Swedish Acad. Sci.Maybe you know exactly what a lithium-ion battery is but even if you donât, chances are youâre carrying one right now. Theyâre the batteries used to power mobile phones, laptops and even electric cars.
When it comes to energy storage, theyâre vastly more powerful than conventional batteries and you can recharge them many more times.
Their widespread use is driving global demand for the metal lithium â demand that Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese this week said Australia should do more to meet.
The University of Queenslandâs Mark Blaskovich, who trained in chemistry and penned this article about Whittinghamâs selection for the chemistry Nobel Prize, sat down with the award-winner this week.
They discussed what the future of battery science may hold and how we might address some of the environmental and fire risks around lithium-ion batteries.
He began by asking M. Stanley Whittingham how lithium batteries differ from conventional, lead-acid batteries, like the kind you might find in your car.
Read more: 'Highly charged story': chemistry Nobel goes to inventors of lithium-ion batteries
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Read more: Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to
Additional credits
Recording and production assistance by Thea Blaskovich
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Announcement of the Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2019
ImagesShutterstock
-
Maggots are a major part of the puzzle when it comes to collecting forensic evidence. Shutterstock
A few episodes ago, we heard from forensic scientists at the Australian Facility for Taphonomic Experimental Research (AFTER) â thatâs the official name for what, in books and movies, they would call a body farm. Itâs there, at a secret bushland site, researchers are making some surprising discoveries about how donated human bodies decompose in Australian conditions.
One of the researchers there is Professor James Wallman, Head of the School of Life Sciences at the University of Technology Sydney, and one of the nationâs few forensic entomologists.
Itâs his job to unpack little clues left behind by insects â including the much maligned blowfly â that can help police solve crimes when a body is found.
Today, James Wallman explains how and why insects have a really profound influence on decomposition.
Weâre also re-broadcasting a clip from Maiken Ueland, the interim director of the AFTER facility, on how research underway there is changing what we thought we knew about determining time since death.
And if youâre interested in finding out more about how to donate your body for such research, you can start here.
Read more: 'This is going to affect how we determine time since death': how studying body donors in the bush is changing forensic science
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Read more: Trust Me, I'm An Expert: what science says about how to lose weight and whether you really need to
Additional audio
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Backyard by David Szesztay from Free Music Archive
ImagesShutterstock
-
Have you been told by your doctor to consider dropping a few kilos? The good news is that often even a small amount of weight loss can improve your health outlook. shutterstock
Everywhere you turn these days, thereâs a diet ad, or family member or friend raving about some new diet that apparently works wonders.
But what does the research actually say about how to lose weight - and if you even need to lose it in the first place?
To find out, The Conversationâs Alexandra Hansen interviewed Clare Collins, a professor in nutrition and dietetics at the University of Newcastle.
Professor Collins, who recently wrote an article titled The science behind diet trends like mono, charcoal detox, Noom and Fast800, also designed a free online course called The science of weight loss â dispelling diet myths.
Alexandra began by asking Clare Collins how a person would know if they needed to change their diet.
Read more: The science behind diet trends like mono, charcoal detox, Noom and Fast800
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Read more: Health Check: what's the best diet for weight loss?
Additional reading:
The Australian Guide to Healthy Eating
Credits:
Recording and editing by Wes Mountain and Chynthia Wijaya, additional editing by Sunanda Creagh.
Additional audio
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
CNN report.
BBC report.
ImagesShutterstock
-
Are southern-born politicians talking about a state they essentially don't understand? Shutterstock
The dust has well and truly settled on Scott Morrisonâs surprise victory in this yearâs federal election but opinion is still divided on exactly what happened in Queensland.
Why did Labor perform so poorly in the Sunshine State? Is Queensland an inherently conservative part of Australia? During the campaign, were southern-born politicians talking about a state they essentially didnât understand? And â #Quexit jokes aside â is it time to redraw state lines in Australia, or even add new states?
Today on Trust Me, Iâm An Expert, we bring you a discussion organised by The Conversation, recorded at Avid Reader bookshop in Brisbane and broadcast by Big Ideas on the ABCâs RN.
In this chat, political scientist Anne Tiernan from Griffith University speaks with the University of Southern Queenslandâs John Cole, who has research expertise in the history of Australian federation, regional development and regional communities.
Host Paul Barclay began by asking them to name the biggest misconceptions floating around about Queensland.
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Credits:
Recording and editing by RNâs Big Ideas, additional editing by Sunanda Creagh.
Additional audio
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
CNN report.
BBC report.
ImagesShutterstock
-
Protesters holding umbrellas amid heavy rain march in an anti-government rally in Wan Chai, Hong Kong. AAP/EPA/VIVEK PRAKASH
Last weekend, hundreds of thousands of people again took to the streets in Hong Kong to protest against the government â the 11th straight weekend of demonstrations that began in June over a proposed extradition bill.
But after more than two months of increasingly violent clashes between demonstrators and the police, this protest was peaceful. No tear gas was fired.
China expert Graeme Smith, one of the hosts of The Little Red Podcast, devoted this weekâs episode to the Hong Kong protest movement, with his co-host, Louisa Lim, on the ground in Hong Kong talking to people about their perseverance in the face of a potentially severe military crackdown from Beijing.
In this episode of Trust Me, Smith discusses where the protests go from here, whether thereâs any chance for dialogue between the two sides, and the impact of the increasingly nationalist vitriol aimed at protesters on social media â and on the streets of Hong Kong.
Read more: Beijing is moving to stamp out the Hong Kong protests â but it may have already lost the city for good
Smith believes the protests arenât going to stop until Chief Executive Carrie Lam definitively withdraws the contentious extradition bill and launches an inquiry into police violence against the protesters.
And this is unlikely so long as Lam â and her backers in Beijing â continue to stand firm in their positions and refuse to negotiate.
So, no one knows how this might end, Smith says.
A lot of the protesters, especially those in their 20s, feel they basically have nothing to lose and theyâre going to dig in for the long haul.
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Credits:
Recording and editing by Graeme Smith, Justin Bergman and Sunanda Creagh.
Additional audio
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
CNN report
BBC report
The Little Red Podcast
ImagesAAP/EPA/VIVEK PRAKASH
-
Today, we're asking two astrophysicists and a planetary scientist: what's the likelihood we'll be living on Mars or the Moon in future? Pixabay/WikiImages, CC BY
Youâve probably heard that this week marks 50 years since humans first set foot on the Moon â a feat that still boggles the mind given the limitations of technology at the time and the global effort required to pull it off.
If youâre as fascinated as we are about the history and future of space exploration, check out The Conversation podcast, To the moon and beyond, a five-part podcast series from The Conversation. Weâve featured a little taste of it on Trust Me today.
Through interviews with academic experts around the world â from space scientists to historians, lawyers, futurists and a former astronaut â science journalist Miriam Frankel and space scientist Martin Archer look at the past 50 years of space exploration and what the 50 years ahead have in store.
Episode two features Australiaâs own space archaeologist, Alice Gorman, in conversation with Sarah Keenihan about why Apollo 11 landing spots could become heritage sites for future generations of visitors to the Moon.
Read more: To the moon and beyond 2: how humanity reacted to the moon landing and why it led to conspiracy theories
But today, The Conversationâs Molly Glassey sits down with a panel of astrophysicists to ask the big questions about space, like: whatâs the next big thing thatâs happening in space research, the thing that will blow us away or bring us together the way the Moon landing did back in 1969? And whatâs the likelihood weâll be living on Mars or the Moon in future?
Today, Molly chats to astrophysicists Jonti Horner and Belinda Nicholson from the University of Southern Queensland and planetary scientist Katarina Miljkovic from Curtin University.
You can find all the episodes of To the moon and beyond on your podcast app, or on our site here.
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Credits:
To the moon and beyond is produced by Gemma Ware and Annabel Bligh. Sound editing by Siva Thangarajah. Thank you to City, University of Londonâs Department of Journalism for allowing use of their studios for To the moon and beyond, and to .
Music: Even when we fall by Philipp Weigl, via Free Music Archive
Fallen Stars by Ketsa, via Free Music Archive
Apollo 11 and 17 audio from NASA
Additional audio
Kindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
ImagesPixabay/WikiImages
-
Research underway at the University of Technology, Sydney's AFTER facility is yielding some surprising new findings about how bodies decompose in the Australian bush. Supplied by UTS, Author provided (no reuse)
On the outskirts of Sydney, in a secret bushland location, lies whatâs officially known as the Australian Facility for Taphonomic Experimental Research (AFTER). In books and movies, itâd be called a body farm.
Maiken Ueland at the AFTER facility run by UTS. Supplied by UTS, Author providedTaphonomy is the study of how an organism breaks down after death. Research underway at the University of Technology Sydneyâs AFTER facility is yielding some surprising new findings about how bodies decompose in the Australian bush.
And hereâs an astonishing detail: until AFTER opened in Sydney in 2016, there was no facility like it in the southern hemisphere. Most of the worldâs taphonomic research came from the US, meaning we were missing vital clues relating to how Australian weather, bugs and climate conditions affect the way a human body decomposes in the bush.
Today on our podcast, Trust Me, Iâm An Expert, we take you on a journey to AFTER. The facilityâs interim director, Maiken Ueland, and PhD student Samara Garrett-Rickman share with us:
some of the unexpected findings emerging from AFTER on determining time since death;why AFTER researchers prefer not to use the term âbody farmâ;how the stages of decomposition work a process of âmummificationâ that research suggests may be unique to Australian bushland conditions;what the TV shows get wrong about forensic science; why itâs harder to bury a body than most people think; what investigators look for to spot a clandestine grave;And if youâre interested in finding out more about how to donate your body for such research, you can start here.
Looking for odours at the AFTER facility, run by UTS. Anna Zhu, Author provided (no reuse) New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Additional audioKindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
Backyard by David Szesztay from Free Music Archive
ImagesUTS/Anna Zhu
-
Older private renters are far more likely to experience loneliness than their counterparts in social housing and that loneliness can be acute. Shutterstock
A growing number of older Australians donât own their homes. And whether they are private renters or live in social housing can make a big difference to their risk of loneliness and anxiety.
Thatâs the key finding of research led by Alan Morris, a professor at the UTS Institute for Public Policy and Governance, who interviewed older Australians about how their housing situation may relate to the loneliness they experience.
On todayâs episode, Professor Morris shares some of the deeply moving stories he heard.
Read more: 'I really have thought this canât go on': loneliness looms for rising numbers of older private renters
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed below and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
Additional audioKindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks.
ImageShutterstock
-
Indian general elections begin April 11. vepar5/shutterstock
Hereâs an astonishingly large number. Around 900 million Indians are heading to the polls to decide if they want to reelect the current government of Narendra Modi and his Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP).
India Tomorrow is a seven-part podcast series by The Anthill (produced by The Conversation UK), exploring some of the major issues facing India â identity politics, the rise of Hindu nationalism, Kashmir, the role of caste and gender in shaping Indian society, and how women and young people experience these phenomena.
Part one, an episode on Indiaâs information wars and how fake news fuels violence, launched on April 9. You can sign up to The Anthill newsletter to stay up to date and send questions via [email protected] or via Twitter @AnthillPod. The producers will be putting your questions to academics.
Read more: Why Australia should engage with the unemployment crisis affecting Indian youth
Today on Trust Me, Iâm An Expert, weâre hearing from an academic featured on India Tomorrow. Craig Jeffrey is the director and CEO of the Australia India Institute and Professor of Development Geography at the University of Melbourne.
He explains what issues are front of mind for Indiaâs millions of first-time voters delivering their verdict on the performance of the BJP government, led by Narendra Modi.
âTwo things are really crucial. One is jobs. Young people across India and particularly in parts of India where the economyâs been less successful at creating jobs - so some of the northern states, for example, are going to be really concerned with the capacity of the government to provide better employment opportunities,â Professor Jeffrey told The Conversationâs editorial intern Bageshri Savyasachi.
âThe second issue, I think, that theyâll be very concerned about is education. So theyâll be looking to see which political parties and politicians are promising to improve higher education [âŠ] Because for a lot of young people who arenât part of the elite in India, there is a mismatch, often, between the educational opportunities they obtain in school or university and then the employment markets and the demands of key private sector firms.â
âA third area thatâs perhaps less obvious is the issue of health care and public health. And my own observations, as an anthropologist and human geographer working in mainly Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand over the past 25 years on social change, is that young people are often demanding access to health services that are poorly provisioned in provincial India, particularly in relation to issues like sexual health, mental health, reproductive health and thatâs an area where I think young people are looking to government for more action.â
Join us as Professor Jeffrey explains what implications this enormous election will have for the worldâs second most populous nation, and for the rest of the globe as well.
Read more: India Tomorrow: a podcast series from The Anthill â episode guide
New to podcasts?Podcasts are often best enjoyed using a podcast app. All iPhones come with the Apple Podcasts app already installed, or you may want to listen and subscribe on another app such as Pocket Casts (click here to listen to Trust Me, Iâm An Expert on Pocket Casts).
You can also hear us on Stitcher, Spotify or any of the apps below. Just pick a service from one of those listed and click on the icon to find Trust Me, Iâm An Expert.
TranscriptCraig Jeffrey: Those numbers are astonishing, arenât they? And itâs very difficult, I think, for pundits to predict what precisely theyâll do in terms of the elections. Whatâs slightly easier to say, though, I think, is whatâs in the minds of those voters. And I think two things are really crucial, one is jobs. So young people across India and particularly in parts of India where the economyâs been less successful at creating jobs - so some of the northern states, for example - are going to be really concerned with the capacity of the government to provide better employment opportunities. The second issue, I think, that theyâll be very concerned about is education. So theyâll be looking to see which political parties and politicians are promising to improve higher education, tertiary education more generally, the skills environment and school education. Because for a lot of young people who arenât part of the elite in India, there is a mismatch, often, between the educational opportunities they obtain in school or university and then the employment market and the demands of key private sector firms.
So I think jobs and education are going to be at the top of young peopleâs minds as they go into the polling booths. What are parties and politicians promising in those areas?
A third area thatâs perhaps less obvious is the issue of health care and public health. And my own observations, as an anthropologist and human geographer working in mainly Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand over the past 25 years on social change, is that young people are often demanding access to health services that are poorly provisioned in provincial India particularly in relation to issues like sexual health, mental health, reproductive health and thatâs an area where I think young people are looking to government for more action. And I think that will also be in young peopleâs minds in the lead up to the elections.
Read more: India Tomorrow part 1 podcast transcript: Fake news and the battle for information
Bageshri Savyasachi: What jobs are available to young people and do they want to do those jobs?
Craig Jeffrey: Well, I think one of the stories of Indian economic growth since 1990 is its failure to create a large number of what might be regarded as white collar or middle class jobs for the increasing numbers of young people who are getting high school matriculation certificates or degrees in India. Now, Indiaâs not especially unusual in that regard. Particularly since the global financial crisis in the late 2000s, economies around the world have often found it difficult to create secure employment opportunities for people. Of course, automation, mechanisation is changing the nature of work throughout the world. So this isnât specific to India but India is an almost very condensed or intense example of the failure of economic growth to create lots of good quality jobs, that long predates 2014 and the coming to power of the BJP. Itâs a structural feature of the Indian economy since 1990 and especially since the mid-2000s period.
So to get to your question of what jobs actually exist, in many cases what weâre seeing in India is people having to realign their expectations of what work theyâre going to do in that five to 10 year period after they graduate from high school or university. This is not new. Ronald Dore wrote in his book The Diploma Disease in 1970 that India was the country of the BA bus conductor. So that sense of having to downplay your expectations in light of circumstances is quite old in India. But now, I would argue, that a lot of people with bachelors degrees in India would be very keen to have a job on state roadways as a bus conductor, so intense and cut-throat has the employment market become. So youâre seeing people with masters degrees, with PhDs having to do very small scale entrepreneurial business work, youâre seeing them especially having to go back into agriculture â not as large-scale agricultural innovators making large amounts of money and employing other people but rather working on quite small plots of land in an environment where they didnât imagine that they would go back into farming. So one of the alarming statistics, I think, is that while in most of the period between 2000 and 2010 the number of young people in agriculture was declining, as you would expect in a country thatâs undergoing a structural transformation from agriculture into manufacturing and services, in the 2010s and particularly since 2014 there has been an increase in young people in agriculture. Now that is quite worrying for India and reflects the point that jobs in the modern economy are not becoming available quickly enough, young people are not finding the infrastructural and institutional environment conducive to moving into successful medium-scale entrepreneurship where they employ other people and find an outlet for their talents.
Bageshri Savyasachi: How crucial has mobilising young people been to the electoral successes of the ruling party, the BJP?
Craig Jeffrey: Thatâs an easy question to answer because of the demographic structure of India and the figures for voting in 2014 in particular show that of course the BJP has been very successful at mobilising people generally in India to vote for them and that includes young people. Itâs done so through making a series of important statements about its approach to social and economic change. And it has done so also through tapping into, I think, a sense of national identity thatâs important to young people. So the BJP has been pretty successful. Not just the BJP but also various organisations connected to the party at the grassroots level.
Bageshri Savyasachi: Is young peopleâs support for Modi on the wane? A lot of young people supported him when he was first running for prime minister but now a lot of young people are feeling disappointed. What do you think?
Craig Jeffrey: I should do that classic academic thing of saying that Iâm not an expert on the contemporary views of young people in India. Where Iâve done most of my research has been in particular pockets of India, Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand and the bulk of that research was done in the period between 1995 and 2010. Since 2010, my work has been mainly in a village in quite a remote part of Uttarakhand, in Chamoli district, and Iâve written quite a lot about the social and political attitudes of young people in that village. Now, those are quite particular to one part of India. Like you and like lots of people, I read the newspapers, I talk to friends in different parts of India, I try to pick up on the streets a sense of the mood. But in that regard, Iâm an armchair or amateur interpreter of young peopleâs political views at the moment.
With those caveats in mind, my sense is that young people may not support Modi as much as they did five years ago but that doesnât mean that they wonât vote for him. So one needs to maybe distinguish between support and how people will actually behave in the ballot booth. I think lots of people that I speak to recognise that given the high pitch to which Modi raised peopleâs aspirations in 2014 there was always going to be a sense of disappointment, that skilling hundreds of millions of people quickly was going to be a very tough ask. And that the vision of New India, while attractive in certain respects, is not borne out in social reality for those outside of the elite and particularly in provincial parts of India, in small town and rural India. So people see on the social and economic side a kind of mismatch between promise and actuality. And I think thatâs undermined a certain enthusiasm for the ruling BJP government. Iâm really not in a position to be able to adjudicate on the extent to which people have sort of fallen out of love with a particular vision of the nation as primarily Hindu or driven by a Hindu civilisational push. Thatâs, I think, more difficult to ascertain. Itâs tricky. The question, I suppose, is: is 2019 to be like 2004, where there was a bit of a surprise that actually the Indian population, including the young population, did move away from the BJP? And it was partly because they didnât feel that they were sharing in the social gains associated with economic growth. And it was partly, as you just observed, that some of the aspects of the sort of rhetoric of Hindu nationalism were not anymore particularly attractive. So it is possible that the same kind of cocktail will still exist in 2019, of sort of a sense of social and economic exclusion and a sense of being a little bit tired of the same message coming out from the government. But itâs very very difficult to tell. As I said, one has to distinguish between support and enthusiasm on the one hand and the actual decision to vote on the other. Because one thing you see again and again in elections in India is people putting their votes in for politicians or parties that they donât actually very much like but they feel like they ought to. Ultimately, itâs the least bad choice that they want to make, which is of course itâs not distinctly Indian, itâs an aspect of how people vote across the world.
Read more: India Tomorrow podcast series from The Anthill â trailer
Bageshri Savyasachi: Weâll just have to wait and watch. What is the state of youth unemployment in India? My impression is that for young people, itâs hard to get a job if you donât have a masters or a bachelorâs degree. And even then you may not get a job in your chosen field.
Craig Jeffrey: Oh, thatâs absolutely right. The recent NSSO figures show that youth unemployment in India is something around 16 or 17%. Now those figures are contested but my view is that they are fairly robust. And, of course, beyond that problem of outright unemployment, thereâs a very large problem of underemployment where people are working in part-time insecure work that doesnât reflect their skills, ambitions and credentials. So both outright unemployment and underemployment are becoming increasing problems in India. In 2010, I wrote a book called Timepass which drew attention to this problem based on fieldwork work in Western Uttar Pradesh. I talked about the emergence of a generation of young people who described themselves as people with nothing to do. Who were doing nothing but also in some sense saw themselves as being nothing. A very intense form of social suffering associated with a prolonged period of unemployment or underemployment.
When I talk to young people in the same area now they say that actually that book is more relevant in 2019 than it was in 2010. Someone told me when I visited India two weeks ago âI felt like it had been written yesterdayâ and this reflects the way this problem of unemployment and underemployment to young people has intensified over the past nine years rather than dissipated.
Bageshri Savyasachi: In her recent book, Dreamers: how young Indians are changing the world, the prominent Indian journalist Snigdha Poonam writes, âthe worldâs future depends on young Indians meeting their aspirations but itâs a pipe dream at this pointâ. How big of a problem is this disconnect between young Indiansâ aspirations and their reality?
Craig Jeffrey: Well, I think itâs a huge problem and I think that the book Dreamers is very successful in setting that out. Itâs worth again going back to the point about demographics. One in eight people in the world is an Indian under the age of 30. Itâs worth repeating that: one in eight people in the world is an Indian young person, someone under the age of 30. Now, thatâs an extraordinary statistic and it gives a sense of the importance of that demographic for the future of Asia and of the world. Now unlike the same generation 25 years ago, that set of young people are very well aware of events in other parts of the world which are streamed to them via their mobile phones or on the internet. They are increasingly in secondary school, including young women, and in school theyâre learning to obviously dream big. And the government is also encouraging those young people to see themselves as part of a new India thatâs modern, in which people are based often in urban areas doing what historically has been described as sort of middle class work, service work. And now where youâve got that situation of both demographic growth and the rapid sort of revolution of rising aspirations, you need an outlet for young people so that they feel as they move into their 20s and 30s that theyâre achieving the goals that they desire. And thatâs not happening. And the question then is, how much of a problem is that? Well, obviously for the young people concerned itâs a big problem for their families. Young people are not passive in that situation, they actively and creatively seek ways to make do. That may be entering into fallback work in agriculture. It may be finding jobs that perhaps they werenât aspiring to originally but which provide a means for establishing a family and getting by, in areas like sales and marketing. But there is also a lot of just disappointment, I think, and a sense of stuckedness and limbo that, again, I wrote about in detail in my book Timepass. Whatâs surprising, perhaps, is that that sense of social suffering hasnât led to more unrest in India and I think there are several reasons for that. I think partly because India is a democracy people have an outlet for frustration through the political system, through voting, through demonstrating on the streets. I think a second reason why there hasnât been more political mobilisation is that people often perceive this as a personal failure rather than a failure of government or of society or as a structural failure, as social scientists would put it. They see it as âWell, I didnât try hard enoughâ or âI wasnât successful enough in that examinationâ. So itâs quite a lot of this failure I think often is personalised rather than seen as a reflection of the structural features of the Indian economy and the wider institutional environment in which people may be trying to start businesses. Thereâs a whole history of commentators on India talking about the country as being poised to sort of fall into unrest. Iâm not going to do that. I think India, it holds together and as I said people are, young people are actively finding ways to make do. But I do think itâs a major social issue at the moment, the lack of capacity for young people to realise their aspirations and it should be and will remain an absolutely critical issue for government in India.
Bageshri Savyasachi: How has national politics played out in Indian universities under Modi?
Craig Jeffrey: Well, the information that leaks out on this issue tends to come from a small number of the very well-known universities in India. So universities like Jawaharlal Nehru University, Hyderabad University, Delhi University and that there has been, over the past few years as youâll be well aware, a series of controversies over the governmentâs treatment of student protesters in those universities and of the ideological, the role of government in shaping how universities operate ideologically through, for example, the appointment of particular vice-chancellors with particular views on politics that then shape those institutions. Now, thatâs a very important debate and itâs one that people can follow through a whole series of articles in magazines and newspapers in India. What interests me more is whatâs happening outside of those well known central universities. What is happening actually in universities like the one that I worked in quite a bit 15 years ago. Chaudhary Charan Singh University which is the sixth largest university in the world if one excludes universities that provide distance education. And is actually, according to some sources, the second largest university in India after Indira Gandhi National Open University, which of course is largely a distance university, distance education university. So whatâs happening in those big state universities that are affiliating other colleges. And thatâs an area which desperately requires consideration. I think it would repay close social research. Youâre seeing the emergence of different types of student politics to that which existed 15 years ago and some of those forms of student politics are linked to a Hindu nationalist agenda. Some are not. Thereâs a great deal of foment in those sort of more provincial universities that operates under the radar on which commentators and social scientists know very little about but which is really important in terms of shaping the environment in which the vast majority of students in India study, which is in colleges, not actually in universities. Itâs in colleges affiliated to universities like Chaudhary Charan Singh University. Iâd be really interested in hearing from anyone whoâs listening to this podcast about their views or experiences of the curricular, of student action in Indiaâs colleges where most people study.
Bageshri Savyasachi: Do you think there is a growing shift towards illiberalism among Indiaâs youth?
Craig Jeffrey: Well, I think thatâs a really interesting question. First, one has to think about, well, what is liberalism? And if we define that relatively narrowly in terms of a commitment to formal equality and individual freedoms then I think thereâs evidence both ways. Thereâs evidence of young people contesting those visions of formal equality and individual freedom, for example through their views on areas like sexuality. So there was a recent Centre for the Study of Developing Societies survey that showed that the majority of young Indians didnât approve of homosexuality. So thereâs some evidence there of a certain kind of âilliberalismâ. Thereâs evidence of young peopleâs involvement in societies or organisations that are policing peopleâs right to eat certain foods, again which would suggest the rise of a certain form of illiberalism. But thereâs also of course a great deal of evidence the other way, that young people are very active in nongovernmental organisations that are seeking to protect peopleâs formal equality, protect peopleâs freedoms. The number of youth NGOs in India is growing very, very quickly. Thereâs also, I think, a very interesting debate about the relationship between the individual and liberalism in India. So an argument thatâs been made by several people is that actually liberalism in India is organised around a sense of group rights rather than around individual rights. So itâs perfectly possible to be part of a caste organisation or a religious organisation thatâs about equality and freedom but nevertheless is articulating those notions of equality and freedom through reference to caste and religion. So that would be an argument that I think lots of Hindu nationalists would make, is that even though Hindus are the majority and even though that theyâre making an argument in Hindu terms, itâs an argument about tolerance and about liberalism rather than about violence or exclusion or limiting peopleâs freedoms. So itâs a very complicated question. Thereâs evidence both ways. Thereâs also a tangled set of debates about whether you could have a kind of liberalism based on a sense of group rights and whether so-called Western visions of liberalism can really be applied to a place like India, where notions of religion and caste and family are so strong. That might be a more detailed answer than you wanted but itâs one that really interests, this is a question that really interests me.
Bageshri Savyasachi: What do young people think now in 2019 that their parents or grandparents may not have thought at the same age?
Craig Jeffrey: Well, I think one of the effects of more young people studying in secondary school is that theyâve often absorbed notions of citizenship and good government that are communicated in school textbooks. So in one of the villages where I work, I was sitting working with a young person who was doing an English lesson recently and one of the English exercises was to write a letter to the local district magistrate in English complaining about the state of the drains in their neighbourhood. And this was obviously an attempt not only to learn English but to inculcate a particular vision of the citizen and of the state. And I think the effect of having large numbers of young people in school, being exposed to these narratives is actually that many more people have accepted and appreciate that kind of vision of rights and citizenship than in the 1990s when I started doing fieldwork in north India. So you see thatâs reflected, for example, in young peopleâs support for anti-corruption movements. You see it in terms of young peopleâs questioning of forms of malpractice that exist in certain bureaucracies in India. Another point Iâd really like to stress is the revolution thatâs been happening in India with reference to womenâs and especially young womenâs rights and capacities. And thatâs, I think, really a major success story in the last 20 years in India or 30 years, is that women and young women have achieved a much greater degree of autonomy and voice at all levels of society and in cities as well as in villages. Now, that comes, of course with all sorts of caveats about the continued problems of gender violence, of disparities in terms of pay and access to schooling and social goods. Nevertheless, I think that is a really important point to stress about the achievements of India in the period since 2000.
Additional audioKindergarten by Unkle Ho, from Elefant Traks
Image:Shutterstock
- Vis mere
