Episodes
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It’s Election Day, but we’re not talking about the campaign. Shane Harris welcomes Tim Naftali back to the show to talk about Americans’ fascination with the presidency. When did the “modern presidency” begin? When did voters and the press become fixated on presidents’ private lives? And what do we get wrong about the nation’s highest office?
Naftali, a presidential historian, was last on Chatter in June 2022 to talk about Watergate, a subject on which he’s one of the country’s leading experts. Today’s conversation helps put the momentousness of this year’s election in some historic perspective. Have a listen while you’re standing in line to vote!
People, plays, and policies discussed in this conversation include:
Theodore Roosevelt, the first modern president
https://millercenter.org/president/roosevelt/life-in-brief
Oh, Mary! by Cole Escola
https://www.ohmaryplay.com/
The presidential “kill list”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/newly-declassified-document-sheds-light-on-how-president-approves-drone-strikes/2016/08/06/f424fe50-5be0-11e6-831d-0324760ca856_story.html
The Jimmy Carter “running” photo
https://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2025424_2025864_2025986,00.html
Teddy White
https://www.nytimes.com/1986/05/16/obituaries/theodore-white-chronicler-of-us-politics-is-dead-at-71.html
Read more about Naftali and his work
https://www.sipa.columbia.edu/communities-connections/faculty/timothy-naftali
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Mark Pomar served as assistant director of the Russian Service at Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, director of the USSR Division at the Voice of America, executive director of the Board for International Broadcasting. He joined David Priess to talk about the origins of US government-funded international broadcasting, differences between RFE/RL and VOA, tensions between strategists and purists over the radios' content, the impacts of detente and of Reagan's more hawkish approach, KGB infiltrations of RFE/RL, changes to the radios toward the end of the Cold War, the role of RL in August 1991's failed coup against Gorbachev, perceptions of the radios after the Cold War, Mark's book Cold War Radio and his current research into Radio Liberty, the relevance of this history for today, and more.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Professor Sanford Levinson has written extensively about the fragility of the Constitution. A likely contested election, AI, and ongoing gridlock makes his long-stemming concerns all the more relevant. In this episode of Chatter, Kevin Frazier, a Tarbell Fellow at Lawfare, sat down with Sandy, a professor at the University of Texas at Austin School of Law to explore how Sandy's thinking about the need for a wholesale revision of the Constitution has evolved, whether or not the Supreme Court is the most important decision maker in American society, the impact of constitutional amendments on the state level, and much more.
More about Sandy Levinson: https://law.utexas.edu/faculty/sanford-v-levinson/
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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The Earth's oceans differ from its land areas in many ways, including the historically powerful norm of "freedom of the seas." David Priess hosted David Bosco, Executive Associate Dean and Professor at Indiana University's Hamilton Lugar School of Global and International Studies, for a discussion about the origins and core principles of the freedom of the seas concept, Hugo Grotius, the practice of maritime commerce from ancient times until now, the three mile "cannon-shot" rule of territorial waters, privateering, piracy, the role of shipwrecks in spurring international cooperation on maritime safety, the norm of major canals being open to all, undersea cables, the unraveling of the freedom of the seas doctrine in the 20th century, the post-World War II era of expanding ocean claims, exclusive economic zones, optimism about the future of ocean governance, David Bosco's book The Poseidon Project, and more.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Stoicism is having a moment.The ancient philosophy--which posits that you can’t control events, but you can control how you respond to them--has lately been embraced by self-help gurus and tech bros. But Nancy Sherman writes that the tenets of Stoicism have long found a receptive audience in “the military mind.” Whether they know it or not, soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines are guided by many of the principles espoused by Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius.
Sherman, a professor at Georgetown University, is the author of several books, including Stoic Warriors: The Ancient Philosophy behind the Military Mind. She spoke with Shane Harris about why Stoic virtues resonate with those who serve in uniform and what the philosophy can teach everyone about how to live well amid uncertainty and struggle.
Books and people discussed in this episode include:
“Stoic Warriors: The Ancient Philosophy behind the Military Mind” by Nancy Sherman https://global.oup.com/academic/product/stoic-warriors-9780195315912?cc=us&lang=en&
Cicero https://iep.utm.edu/cicero-roman-philosopher/
Marcus Aurelius https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/marcus-aurelius/
Epictetus https://iep.utm.edu/epictetu/
Seneca’s “De Beneficiis” https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3794/3794-h/3794-h.htm
James Stockdale https://www.defense.gov/News/Feature-Stories/story/Article/2097870/medal-of-honor-monday-navy-vice-adm-james-stockdale/
Thomas Gibbons-Neff https://www.nytimes.com/by/thomas-gibbons-neff
Ian Fishback https://www.npr.org/2023/08/09/1192996954/ian-fishback-who-blew-the-whistle-on-torture-by-the-u-s-military-was-laid-to-res
Hugh Thompson https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-wiener-my-lai-hugh-thompson-20180316-story.html
Edward Villella https://sab.org/scenes/sab-trailblazer-edward-villella/
More about Nancy Sherman https://www.nancysherman.com/
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Isabelle Kerby-McGowan and Megan Nadolski of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
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Conspiracy theories about supposed Jewish control of global finance and politics have been circulating and influencing popular culture for centuries, with the spotlight often falling on the Rothschild family. Author Mike Rothschild (no relation), who has researched and written about the phenomenon in his book Jewish Space Lasers, joined David Priess to discuss the appeal of conspiracy theories overall, the genesis of the Rothschilds' wealth, legends about the family's involvement in the Battle of Waterloo and other major world events, how the expansion of Rothschild commercial interests in the 1800s spurred paranoia about the family's influence, Nazi-era movies about the Rothschilds, why the family failed to gain traction in the United States, the connections between anti-Semitism and grand conspiracy theories, Stanley Kubrick's Eyes Wide Shut, Marjorie Taylor Greene's "Jewish space lasers" comments, and more.
Works mentioned in this episode:
The book The Storm Is Upon Us by Mike Rothschild
The book Jewish Space Lasers by Mike Rothschild
The movie Eyes Wide Shut
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Jay Venables of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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The explosion of the Space Shuttle Challenger in January 1986 riveted millions of Americans, who watched the horrific event live on television. What they didn’t know then was that the tragedy was largely preventable, a disastrous result of hubris and “magical thinking” as much as flawed engineering.
Journalist Adam Higginbotham’s new book, “Challenger: A True Story of Heroism and Disaster on the Edge of Space,” is a definitive account of what went wrong, and how NASA failed to learn from its own mistakes. Higginbotham’s story begins with an earlier fatal accident, a fire in the capsule of the Apollo 1 mission, which presaged Challenger’s fate. He then recounts the early days of the space shuttle program. Astonishingly, the very mechanical flaws that led to Challenger’s destruction were known, but the warnings of a few engineers were ignored by more senior officials, who by the time Challenger was set to launch the first teacher into space faced tremendous political and public pressure to make the mission happen, despite obvious risks.
Higginbotham spoke with Shane Harris about his book, why he wanted to tell the Challenger story, and the future of human spaceflight.
Books, events, and people discussed on this episode include:
“Challenger”: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Challenger/Adam-Higginbotham/9781982176617
“Midnight in Chernobyl”:
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Midnight-in-Chernobyl/Adam-Higginbotham/9781508278511
The Apollo 1 fire:
https://www.nasa.gov/mission/apollo-1/
Roger Boisjoly, rocket engineer:
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2012/02/06/146490064/remembering-roger-boisjoly-he-tried-to-stop-shuttle-challenger-launch
The crew of Challenger STS-51L:
https://www.nasa.gov/challenger-sts-51l-accident/
The Columbia disaster:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2003/04/09/denial-of-shuttle-image-requests-questioned/80957e7c-92f1-48ae-8272-0dcfbcb57b9d/
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Jay Venables of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Science journalist Sarah Scoles has written extensively about astronomy and the UFO community, including in her 2021 book They Are Already Here. She joined David Priess to discuss how scientists look at ETs, pop cultural takes on first contact with extraterrestrials, the incredible influence of Carl Sagan's Contact, the Allan Hills meteorite, the evolution over time of beliefs about aliens contacting humans, how the Roswell myth emerged, the International UFO Congress, the Mutual UFO Network, UFO investigators, seeing lights around Area 51, SETI salvationalism, extraterrestrial-visitation belief as a religious movement, and more.
Works mentioned in this episode:
The book Contact by Carl Sagan
The movie Contact
The book Making Contact by Sarah Scoles
The book They Are Already Here by Sarah Scoles
The book Countdown by Sarah Scoles
The event "UAP: The Search for Clarity," at the Michael V. Hayden Center for Intelligence, Policy, and International Security, November 15, 2023
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Jay Venables of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Council on Foreign Relations fellow, Washington Post columnist, and author of military history books Max Boot has just completed a definitive biography of Ronald Reagan, eleven years after starting his research and writing for it. He joined David Priess to talk all about Reagan, including his appeal as a biography subject, his World War II experience, his speech preparation, his turn from New Deal Democrat to right-wing Republican, his path to electoral politics, his management style, his optimism, his pragmatism, his influence on pop culture in the 1980s, his role in ending the Cold War peacefully, his movies, and more.
Works mentioned in this episode:
The book Reagan: His Life and Legend by Max Boot
The movie Kings Row
The movie Bedtime for Bonzo
The movie Knute Rockne All American
The book The Unwinding by George Packer
The book Desert Star by Michael Connelly
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Jay Venables and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Walt Hickey is the Deputy Editor for Data and Analysis at Insider News, and the author of You Are What You Watch: How Movies and TV Affect Everything. His book explores the power of entertainment to change our beliefs, how we see ourselves, and how nations gain power.He joined Eugenia Lostri, Lawfare's Fellow in Technology Policy and Law, to talk about how we use media to express our societal apprehensions, the ways in which the military, NASA and the CIA collaborate with Hollywood, and the soft power of media productions.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Isabelle Kerby-McGowan and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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For more than 40 years, Peter Clement has studied Russian political culture and leaders--serving for most of that time as an analyst, manager, and executive at the CIA before his retirement in 2018. He has PhD in Russian history, teaches at Columbia University, and has thought long and hard about what makes Vladimir Putin tick.
He joined David Priess to discuss his road to studying Russia as a career, the art of Kremlinology, Putin's rise, Putin's feelings about Ukraine across the decades, the images of himself Putin projects to the West and within Russia, why FDR would be great to have around right now, and more.
Works mentioned in this episode:
The book First Person by Vladimir Putin
The essay "On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians" by Vladimir Putin
The article "Putin's Risk Spiral," Foreign Affairs (October 26, 2022), by Peter Clement
The book Present at the Creation by Dean Acheson
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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It’s January 6, 2025. Congress has convened to certify electoral votes in the presidential election. But members of the U.S. military are in revolt, throwing their support behind the losing candidate. The legitimate president huddles in the Situation Room with his top advisers and Cabinet. They have six hours to prevent violent protests from exploding into civil war.
That’s the dire scenario imagined in the new documentary “War Game.” Real-world experts--including former elected officials and retired military officers--play the roles of government decision-makers. Over the course of the game, they are surprised with new and increasingly perilous complications, from the spread of online propaganda to a renegade general who exhorts military service members to take up arms against their commander-in-chief. All the while, they grapple with whether the president should invoke the Insurrection Act, a fateful decision that risks undermining the government’s legitimacy at the very moment the president is trying to preserve it.
Shane Harris spoke with the film’s producer and co-director, Jesse Moss, about what inspired him to make this real-life thriller and what it tells us about the state of the union as we head into the home stretch of an election.
Articles, organizations, and television shows discussed in this episode include:
The Washington Post op-ed that inspired the war game: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/12/17/eaton-taguba-anderson-generals-military/
Vet Voice Foundation: https://vvfnd.org/campaigns/war-game-film/
Trailer for the film: https://wargamefilm.com/
“The Bureau”: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4063800/
More about Moss and his work: https://www.jessemoss.com/Jesse-Moss-1
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Gina Bennett had a remarkable intelligence career of more than three decades, focusing on counterterrorism even before the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993 and continuing to apply that expertise long after 9/11. She has written a book about how national security and parenting lessons reinforce each other, taught students at Georgetown University, and mentored women entering national security careers.
She joined David Priess to talk about her path into and through the intelligence community, the evolution of counterterrorism analysis since the late 1980s, motherhood and work pressures, the value of teaching, how security studies ignores lessons from more than 99 percent of human history, why a hunter-gatherer perspective illuminates security challenges better than traditional views, the limits of bumper sticker takeaways from 9/11 like "failure of imagination" and "didn't connect the dots," and more.
Works mentioned in this episode:
The book National Security Mom by Gina Bennett
The TV miniseries Catch me a Killer
The article "Of Lice and Men: America Needs to Rethink Its National Security Paradigm," Georgetown Security Studies Review (February 2024), by Gina Bennett
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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On this week’s show, Lawfare’s Editor in Chief Benjamin Wittes sits down with longtime Democratic lawyer Bob Bauer to discuss his mémoire of political lawyering, “The Unraveling Reflections on Politics Without Ethics and Democracy in Crisis.” Bauer, a longtime Lawfare contributing editor, discusses his career as a litigating street fighter on behalf of Democratic Party causes and some of the regrets he has about party lawyering in an era of rising polarization.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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At the start of every presidential administration, the nominees for more than 1,000 civilian positions require Senate confirmation. A large number of those are in the Department of Defense, with confirmation responsibility going to the Senate Armed Services Committee (SASC). And whether it's a new administration or not, the committee processes dozens of civilian nominations for typical turnover reasons and thousands of military promotions as part of regular order.
Arnold Punaro, author of the new book If Confirmed, knows the Senate confirmation process as well as or better than anyone alive. For half a century, he has been central to the confirmation process for military-related nominees--including more than two decades in the US Senate (as SASC Staff Director and in other roles) and more than 25 years since then as an official or unofficial confirmation adviser for the Executive Branch. He joined David Priess to talk about the Constitutional foundations of confirmation, the overall process as it has evolved from nomination through confirmation to appointment, recess appointments and their limits, the Federal Vacancies Reform Act and its quirks, how a presumption of confirmation can get nominees in trouble, why senatorial holds on nominees are getting out of control, which aspects of the confirmation process need to change, and more.
Works mentioned in this episode:
The book If Confirmed by Arnold Punaro
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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This week, we’re at the Aspen Security Forum, the annual gathering of national security and foreign policy heavyweights. The conference regularly draws senior government and military officials from the United States and around the world to chew over the big issues of the day, and this time we had a full plate.
It’s not exactly hardship duty escaping to a glamorous mountain paradise. But the real world hardly felt far away. Questions linger about the November elections and the security failure that led to the assassination attempt on Donald Trump while two wars grind on with no clear sign of stopping.
Shane Harris sat down with his colleagues Courtney Kube of NBC News and Gordon Lubold of The Wall Street Journal to talk about the highlights of the conference and what people discussed on the sidelines, where the real action often happens.
Watch recordings of the security forum panels. https://www.aspensecurityforum.org/
Read more from our guests.
Courtney Kube: https://www.nbcnews.com/author/courtney-kube-ncpn3621
Gordon Lubold: https://www.wsj.com/news/author/gordon-lubold
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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The Star Wars universe gets a lot of attention for its lightsabers, space battles, and witty droids. But over the decades, a rich lore has developed around its history and politics.
Dr. Chris Kempshall researches and writes at the intersection of real-world history, with a focus on the First World War, and the Star Wars universe. His books include The History and Politics of Star Wars, which analyzes various aspects of Star Wars compared to our world, and Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire, an examination of the Empire from the perspective of an in-universe historian. Chris joined David Priess to discuss World War I-themed video games, how Star Wars creator George Lucas used history, how to get one's hands around the ever-expanded lore of Star Wars, why the movie sequels differed from published books about the aftermath of the Empire's fall, the structure and operations of the Empire, the problematic politics of the Republic, the treatment of non-human species and droids in Star Wars canonical works, controversy over the redemption of Anakin Skywalker, fan theories about the extent of Emperor Palpatine's manipulation of events and about the evidence that Jar Jar Binks was a Sith, and much more.
Works mentioned in this episode:
The Star Wars canon, across all media
Works in Star Wars Legends (formerly the Star Wars Expanded Universe)
The Chatter episode National Security Insights from Board Games, with Volko Ruhnke
The book British, French and American Relations on the Western Front, 1914-1918 by Chris Kempshall
The book The First World War in Computer Games by Chris Kempshall
The book The History and Politics of Star Wars by Chris Kempshall
The book Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of the Galactic Empire by Chris Kempshall
The Sharpe Series of books by Bernard Cornwell
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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Joseph Cox is an award-winning investigative journalist and the co-founder of 404 Media. He is also the world’s leading reporter on the FBI's Anom sting operation, a topic he has written about in the new book, Dark Wire: The Incredbile True Story of the Largest Sting Operation Ever.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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As the Second World War started, an unsung cadre of US librarians and other information management professionals was making its way to Europe to acquire printed material that could help American analysts understand international threats. As the war went on, the mission of these experts expanded to also include an unprecedented effort to locate, preserve, and ultimately decide what to do with millions of printed items of Nazi propaganda--and with the books and documents that Germany had seized and hidden during the war.
Professor Kathy Peiss, who teached in the Department of History at the University of Pennsylvania, joined host David Priess to discuss this, and more, including many stories from her compelling book Information Hunters: When Librarians, Soldiers, and Spies Banded Together in World War II Europe. They talked about the field of American Studies, her family connection that led her to study librarians and spies in World War II, the World War I-era connections between librarians and national security matters, the cooperation in the early 1940s between America's emerging intelligence efforts and the Library of Congress, extraordinary women who worked to gather materials in war-torn Europe, advances in microfilm technology and use as a result of their efforts, tensions between the US and UK in open source collection, the vital role Lisbon played in information hunting during the war, unique aspects of the material acquisition and preservation effort as the war ended, the heated debate over the destruction of Nazi books, challenges involved in the return of recovered materials, and more. Including zoot suits. Yes, really.
Works mentioned in this episode:
The book Information Hunters by Kathy Peiss
The movie The Monuments Men
The book The Monuments Men by Robert Edsel and Bret Witter
The book The Hunter by Tana French
The book Dr. No by Percival Everett
The book World War I and the Foundations of American Intelligence by Mark Stout
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
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Libertarianism doesn’t fit easily on the traditional left-right spectrum of American politics. The philosophy upholds personal liberty as a core value. What does it have to say about matters of foreign policy and national security, which encompass ideas about self-defense but also protection of the state?
Katherine Mangu-Ward sat down with Shane Harris to discuss the libertarian view on war and diplomacy, how it approaches the question of nation-state conflicts, and the differences between libertarianism and the Libertarian Party. Mangu-Ward is the editor-in-chief of Reason magazine, the leading publication on libertarian thought and ideas. She started her journalism career in 2000 as an intern at Reason and later worked at The Weekly Standard and The New York Times. Her writing has also appeared in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, and many other publications.
Political philosophers, publications, and novel state concepts discussed in this episode include:
Ayn Rand https://aynrand.org/
Fusionism https://reason.com/2021/02/10/is-there-a-future-for-fusionism/
Friedrich Hayek https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/friedrich-hayek/
The Yale Free Press
Students for a Democratic Society https://www.pbs.org/opb/thesixties/topics/politics/newsmakers_1.html
Prospera https://www.prospera.co/
Read and listen to more of Mangu-Ward’s work:
https://reason.com/people/katherine-mangu-ward/
https://reason.com/podcasts/the-reason-roundtable/
https://twitter.com/kmanguward?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.
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