Episodes
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Dr. Ben Jensen is the CEO of Melbourne-based consultancy Learning First. Ben has advised governments in Australia, North America, Europe, the Middle East and Asia on education strategy and reform. Before founding Learning First in 2014, he was director of the Grattan Institute’s School Education Program. He also worked with numerous education systems across the world during five years at the OECD, where he conducted research on education policy and school and teacher effectiveness, and has a PhD in Economics from the University of Melbourne. Highlights from his conversation with Rod and Jal include: an amazing Australian accent; opening banter that covers the Celtics 18th championship; brief thoughts on an announcement that the U.S. surgeon general is recommending warning labels for social media platforms as it relates to youth mental health; the difficulties of managing screen time for children, both at home and in the classroom; an emphasis on the importance of a systematic, evidence-based approach to curriculum development; how to better align education goals with practical classroom implementation; why less content doesn't always mean better outcomes; and a lightning round that will make you thirsty for either a coffee or a beer!
Learning First
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Michele Shannon is the Executive Director of the Deeper Learning Districts. Previously, she was a National Designer and Facilitator for the Leadership Academy, where she built the capacity of educational leaders through leadership training to confront inequities & create conditions for students to thrive. She also served as Chief of Schools for Boston Public Schools, where she led a team of eight Instructional Superintendents focused on eliminating the opportunity and achievement gaps in the system. A product of New York City public schools, she earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Sociology from Baruch College, a Master of Social Work from Hunter College, and a Doctorate in Education Leadership (Ed.L.D.) from the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Highlights from her conversation with Rod and Jal include: opening banter on the recent success of the Boston Celtics; Michele attempting to cover her entire biography in Jal's "3-minute" challenge; how her background as a student, teacher and now administrator shaped her view of what education should be; comparing characteristics of traditional education to what Michele describes as "deeper learning;" why it is so important for students to build relationships with adults in their school setting; how to integrate social-emotional learning in a way that works; how to better build K-12 systems so no student leaves feeling unprepared for whatever comes next; the importance of strong leadership and modeling - highlighting both the successes and failures of the system for everyone to see; how equity can be better built into all aspects of education including teacher preparation and training; and a wonderful example of a district that has applied elements of equity and deeper learning that gives us all hope for the future!
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Chris Kennedy is the Superintendent of Schools/CEO at West Vancouver Schools. He has taught secondary English and Social Studies, and been both an elementary and secondary school principal. One of the most progressive voices in BC education, Chris has been featured by Macleans Magazine as one of the 100 Young Canadians to Watch and his work has been featured in various local and national publications. He was recently named one of the Top 10 Canadian Newsmakers in Educational Technology. He is joined by Eric Xie, a 12th grade student in the West Vancouver School district. Eric is incredibly passionate about AI, acting as both a consumer and creator. He also participates in robotics competitions as part of the school's "TenTon Robotics" team. Highlights from the episode include: why it is important for schools, especially teachers and students, to lead the conversation on AI - not technology companies; the challenge of building a balance between exploration/experimentation and safety guardrails; positive and negative use cases for generative AI technologies in the classroom; the value of developing the "right" prompts when interacting with AI tools; a debate over whether these new technologies will really transform education; and a lightning round that features an unpopular opinion directly from ChatGPT!
Check out Chris' Blog: The Culture of Yes
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Neil Gross, a sociologist best known for his work on policing, higher education, politics, and pragmatism, is the Charles A. Dana Professor of Sociology at Colby College in Maine. A frequent contributor to the New York Times, Gross holds a bachelor’s degree in legal studies from UC Berkeley and received his PhD in sociology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison. Before joining the Colby faculty in 2015, Gross taught at the University of Southern California, Harvard, the University of British Columbia, and Princeton. Highlights from the episode include: a history of Neil's journey from cop to college professor to author; samples from his book that show how former police chiefs worked to improve the culture of policing; why trust is the most important factor in a community and how to begin building or repairing it; comparing the challenges in policing to the challenges facing those in education; difficulties both police chiefs and school principals face as they work to manage their departments while also being ambassadors in the broader community; and a closing lightning round that compares Vancouver to Maine!
Check out Neil's Book: https://neilgross.com/walk-the-walk-1
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Shanna Peeples is the Dr. John G. O’Brien distinguished chair in education at West Texas A&M university. In 2015 she was awarded USA National Teacher of the Year for her work at Palo Duro High School, which earned her an opportunity to meet and be personally lauded by President Obama. She now has her own wikipedia page, much to the chagrin of our co-host, Jal Mehta! Highlights from the conversation include: Shanna reflecting on meeting President Obama, and how her time as a DJ sparked a candid conversation with the commander in chief; a short anecdote where Shanna got to meet First Lady, Jill Biden; why ideas once thought to be settled in education are suddenly up for debate - most glaringly, the purpose of school; the political divide driving conflict in schools; how a trip to Lebanon has left Shanna "condemned to hope;" why bringing K-12 administrators to congress will result in more political theater instead of an opportunity to actually engage in productive dialogue around real issues affecting schools; the importance of storytelling when defining your own purpose and values; a few fun football metaphors; and a Texas-themed lightning round.
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Justin is an associate professor of digital media in the department of Comparative Media Studies/Writing at MIT and the director of the Teaching Systems Lab. He is the author of Iterate: The Secret to Innovation in Schools and Failure to Disrupt: Why Technology Alone Can’t Transform Education, and he is the host of the TeachLab Podcast. He earned his doctorate from the Harvard Graduate School of Education and is a past Fellow at the Berkman-Klein Center for Internet and Society.
Highlights from the conversation include: an opening segment reacting to the wave of student protests on college campuses across the United States and Canada; how generative AI skipped the adoption phase and arrived in classrooms with little to no preparation; a technical overview on what generative AI is and how it works; why AI is sometimes just a label to make things seem more "magical than they are;" how experts and novices can have very different experiences with Chat GPT; where the technology as a co-pilot may or may not fit within various industries; the importance of implementing guardrails as AI becomes more prevalent in the education space; why students should be central to conversations about how to navigate the changing technology landscape; and a lighting round offering a science fiction summer reading list (see recommendations below).
Science Fiction Reads:
Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson
Anything written by N.K. Jemisin
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Ron Berger is Chief Academic Officer for EL Education, an organization that partners with districts and charter boards to found public schools in low-income communities. EL Education’s core work is building teacher capacity in schools and districts through professional coaching, resources and open-source curriculum. He is an Annenberg Foundation Teacher Scholar, received the Autodesk Foundation National Teacher of the Year award, and is the author of six books.
Highlights from this unique exploration of craftsmanship include: remembering a time when we aspired to make quality, tangible things instead of living in a rushed, transactional and mostly disposable society; a beautiful carpentry analogy that challenges the way we prepare teachers; the importance of a "crew" for learning in all aspects of life; how a calligraphy lesson from Ron turned into a transformational experience; why models and critique can be powerful tools in the classroom; tying the theme of craftsmanship back to improving educational systems; and the long-awaited return of the lightning round!
Learn more about Ed Camp
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Alisa Berger was the founding principal at both the NYC iSchool, a New York City public high school, and the Mott Hall II school, a NYC public middle school. She currently teaches at the Harvard Graduate School of Education in the Professional Education Program, and is Co-Director of The Deeper Learning Dozen. In this unique format, Alisa, Rod and Jal will build a roster of "bad educational innovations," and then both defend their choices and challenge each others. Some of the selections include: high stakes testing and assessment, computers in the classroom, mastery-based learning, recess, start time and scheduling, and even school itself. But don't worry, it isn't all negative. Everyone will share a positive innovation to close out the episode along with a plug to join Rod, Jal and Alisa at this summer's Deeper Learning Ed Camp.
Learn more about Ed Camp
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Diana Hess has been dean of University of Wisconsin–Madison’s School of Education since Aug. 1, 2015. She is only the ninth dean of the School of Education since its founding in 1930. Since 1997, Hess has been researching how teachers engage their students in discussions of highly controversial political and constitutional issues, and what impact this approach to civic education has on what young people learn. Her most recent book, “The Political Classroom: Evidence and Ethics in Democratic Education,” co-authored with Paula McAvoy, won the American Educational Research Association’s Outstanding Book Award in 2016 and the prestigious Grawemeyer Award in 2017.
Highlights from her interview include: an amazing opening biography challenge; how student and teacher preparation is key to meaningful conversations in the classroom; the difference between a discussion and a debate - removing the element of a winner and a loser; why we need to teach "inauthentic" political discourse that goes against what we often see portrayed in the media; how to manage conversations when you don't know how they may affect students personally; the evolution of issues being "settled"; the importance of learning from history; and a powerful example of real-time discussion related to the September 11th tragedy.
Check out Diana's Book: The Political Classroom
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Jo Chrona is an education consultant, speaker, and author, supporting professional learning opportunities in the areas of Indigenous education and anti-racism. She has more than 25 years teaching in both K-12 (secondary) and post-secondary education, and played a vital role in developing First Peoples Principles of Learning in British Columbia. This powerful conversation covers several topics including: the story behind Wayi Wah! as a book title and how to properly say it; a thoughtful look at the journey of incorporating Indigenous knowledge into the education system; several anecdotes that illustrate the tension of the process and the resistance that continues to exist; the importance of balancing anger with a willingness to invite those that resist into the conversation; a new twist on the "I used to think, and now I think" exercise; why educators should never stop learning but occasionally may have to unlearn things as well; and one of the most efficient lightning rounds to date!
Check out Jo's Book: Wayi Wah! Indigenous Pedagogies: An Act for Reconciliation and Anti-Racist Education
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Cresta Mcintosh is the Associate Superintendent for the Monterey Public Schools in California, and Jocelyn Fletcher Schuech is the Associate Director of Teaching and Learning in Burlington Vermont. Alisa Burger currently teaches at the Harvard Graduate School of Education in the Professional Education Program, and is Co-Director of The Deeper Learning Dozen. This marks her third appearance on the podcast! The conversation features a very open and honest discussion on what it takes to lead systems change, and highlights include: the power of shadowing students and seeing the education experience through their eyes; a deep dive into Margaret Wheatley's idea of "hero to host;" the challenges of moving form co-construction to sustained action and change; how it is not only important to get the right people to the table, but to then make sure those voices are heard - the idea of excavating voices in different spaces; a moving commentary on what its like to be a female change agent in education, especially when leadership positions are still male-dominated; and a touching close that features each person's favorite end of school year tradition.
Read more about "Hero to Host"
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James Thompson is the designer behind Black Badger, a creative design agency that specializes in using advanced materials in new and exciting ways. He's previously done special edition pieces with luxury watch brands De Bethune and MB&F. He’s mucked about with everything from McLaren supercars to next-generation submarine design. Born in Vancouver, Canada, James relocated to Gothenburg, Sweden in 2002 and is now co-owner of the Copenhagen-based watch brand Arcanaut. This lively conversation features: an opening reflection on new legislation disrupting Florida's school systems; a look at the creative process using a Beatles analogy, Pixar examples, and several sports references; a raw and honest reflection on James' approach to creativity, along with the successes and failures of his journey; how collaboration fits with creativity; where creativity fits within the school system; and a lightning round that questions whether James is the most exciting toy in his home!
Check out James' Site: Black Badger
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Chris Kennedy is the Superintendent of Schools/CEO with the West Vancouver School District (West Vancouver, British Columbia). He has taught secondary English and Social Studies, and been both an elementary and secondary school principal. In addition, he runs a blog entitled "The Culture of Yes" where you can find several articles on the most pressing and timely issues in education. Highlights from his conversation with Rod and Jal include: the origin of the "Culture of Yes" mentality; how Chris became known as an "elder statesmen" in the BC school system and what makes him a truly free range human; the importance of saying yes to new ideas and then allowing those innovations to grow and scale; how student leadership is more than just representation, it's about hearing as many voices as possible, especially those marginalized by past and current systems; an insightful conversation about the emergence of AI technology, specifically ChatGPT, and what it means for the future of education; what COVID taught us about the allocation of time in schools; a look at gender in sports, especially during the earliest years of playing; everyone answering the question about how their teaching and coaching has changed over time; and a lightning round featuring impromptu sound effects!
Check out Chris' blog: The Culture of Yes
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Shawn Ginwright is a leading innovator and scholar of African American youth, youth activism, and youth development. He currently holds the title of Professor of Education in the Africana Studies Department at San Francisco State University, and starting this fall, will join Jal as a Professor of Practice at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Highlights from their conversation include: a little back story about the origin of the book that involves wine and a black table; the importance of looking inward and dealing with inner turmoil in order to work successfully on social problems; the value of balance and clarity and how Rod, Jal, and Shawn all found their own versions of it; why a lack of true equilibrium among activists can lead to strained relationships, burn out, and failure; why empathy and healing need to be core to any transformational movement; a powerful reaction to yet another wave of school shootings in the U.S.; and a lightning round that puts the quality of east coast Mexican food to the test!
Check out Shawn's book: The Four Pivots: Reimagining Justice, Reimagining Ourselves
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This powerful conversation features four guests from the Nisga’a Nation and the Nisga’a School District: Sayt Gibuu (Lydia Stephens) - Nisga’a Lisims Language and Culture Program Manager, Luu-MisMaakskw (Esther Adams) - Nisga’a Lisims Director of Language and Culture, Galksi-De'entkw (Peter McKay) - District Principal Indigenous Education, and Jill Jensen - Superintendent. Highlights from the episode include: an opening from Peter; examining the importance of the land and how it is incorporated into the student experience; how language and culture can become focal points of the education system; the delicate balance of indigenous education and ministry requirements; what other systems and districts can learn from Nisga'a; and a lightning round heavily focused on nature.
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Doannie Tran was a middle and high school teacher, and was assistant superintendent for academics and professional learning for Boston Public Schools, and currently is a partner at the Center for Innovation in Education. Landon Mascareñez describes himself as educator, writer, and democracy builder. He works at the Colorado Education Initiative (CEI) and is the vice chair of the Colorado State Board for Community Colleges and Occupational Education. Doannie and Landon have been close since their time together at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and have since co-founded the Open System Institute. Their conversation with Rod and Jal includes: a deep discussion on the attractiveness of closed systems; why open systems would be better, but are a challenge to implement - classic fear of change; what unlearning was needed in order to fully embrace the concept of open systems; the importance of having all of the stakeholders, including skeptics and political actors, in the room in order to build trust in a community; sound advice on how to move from the theory of an open system to concrete action; and a lightning round that assesses the change tolerance of our guests and hosts!
Pre-Order Doannie and Landon's book: The Open System: Redesigning Education and Reigniting Democracy
Learn more about the Open System Institute
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Dr. Pam Moran is a recently retired superintendent of thirteen years and has also worked as a teacher, staff developer, elementary principal, and assistant superintendent. She was the 2010 president of the Virginia Association of School Superintendents and the 2016 Virginia Superintendent of the Year, one of four finalists for the national superintendent of the year. Ira Socol is a Principal of Socol/Moran Partners and serves as Senior Provocateur, while leading work in the transformation of spaces, technologies, and library services. Highlights from their conversation include: opening mini-biographies based on a podcast homework assignment; an incredible story about Pam's first day as a teacher; how being a police officer changed the way Ira viewed classroom observation; the importance of giving everyone in the school system room to make mistakes; a look at why we need transformational change, and then examining the what and how of actually making it work; amazing examples of what transformation looks like for students, teachers and administrators; why the definition of engagement is different for every student; and a vast list of book recommendations during the lightning round.
Check out Ira and Pam's book: Timeless Learning: How Imagination, Observation, and Zero-Based Thinking Change Schools
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Jal Mehta is a professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education and also holds the title of faculty co-chair for the Learning Design, Innovation, and Technology program. His research explores the role of different forms of knowledge in tackling major social and political problems, particularly problems of human improvement. He has also written extensively on what it would take to improve American education, with a particular focus on the professionalization of teaching. Our guest co-host, Ron Berger appeared in season one, episode 13: "Our Kids are Not Broken" and returns as a self-described "super-fan" of the podcast. Highlights from a very dynamic conversation include: an opening story about optimism in the face of a suddenly politicized education world; a look back at where it all began for Jal as he grew up in suburban Baltimore; unpacking the complexity of identifying and scaling deeper learning in all education systems; balancing the colonial nature and history of Harvard University with promoting a progressive approach to education; how having kids changes your view on teaching; and a fast moving lightning round that features a "scary story."
Listen to Ron's Season 01 Episode
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Amanda Datnow is Professor and Chancellor’s Associates Endowed Chair in the Department of Education Studies and Associate Dean of the Division of Social Sciences at the University of California, San Diego. Amelia Peterson is currently part of the founding faculty at the London Interdisciplinary School. Previously, she was a fellow in the Social Policy department at the London School of Economics. Both were recently involved in research that led to the latest Brookings Report: "Transforming Education for Holistic Student Development: Learning from Education System (Re)Building Around the World." Highlights from their conversation with Rod and Jal include: a quick history of their involvement with the Brookings Report project; whether taking on research during maternity leave is a good or bad idea; looking at how some leading systems and jurisdictions around the world are creating educational shifts in the direction of deeper, more equitable, more student-centered learning; defining infrastructure and the role it plays in systems change; the value of combining centralized and distributed forms of leadership; and a concise lightning round where we discover Jal's strange reading habits.
Full Brookings Report and Case Studies
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Dream a Dream empowers children and young people from vulnerable backgrounds to overcome adversity and thrive in a fast-changing world. Since 1999, they have helped over 3 million young people thrive in the 21st century through innovation labs and strategic partnerships with governments in five states across India. Vishal Talreja is the co-founder and Trustee of Dream a Dream, and Dr. Connie Chung is the former Associate Director of Harvard Graduate School of Education's Global Education Innovation Initiative, and recently has worked with the OECD Education 2030 project. Highlights from their conversation with Rod and Jal include: an introduction to the Dream a Dream organization and how their work is creating real change in India; the inspiration for Connie and Vishal's book collaboration; how they are trying to rewrite what success looks like in the classroom and what that shift might mean for society at large; the amazing power of storytelling; and a lightning round featuring lessons from COVID and some great reading recommendations (see links below).
Trauma-Responsive Schooling: Centering Student Voice and Healing
Equity-Centered Trauma-Informed Education
What Happened to You?: Conversations on Trauma, Resilience, and Healing
Decade of Anxiety – Transformed by Faith, Courage and Authenticity
AZADI
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