Episodes
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Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Dee. We discussed his questioning of Adventism and Christianity in general, Satanic Panic, his evolving perspectives on religion, and having empathy for believers. We also talked about Dee's move to Sweden, his childhood connection to Dr. Ben Carson, and how the Ben Carson on TV is not the same man Dee once knew.
Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Song - I'm Afraid I'll Go to Heaven by Moon Walker
Book - Inside Rock Music (SDA anti-rock propaganda)
Artist - Erykah Badu
Video - Erykah Badu NPR Tiny Desk Concert
Article - Dr. Ben Carson
Video - Carson 1997 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:53
Video - Carson 2013 National Prayer Breakfast Speech @ 34:1000:00 Intro
01:05 Part 2 of Dee's Story
02:34 The Historical Jesus
04:42 Personal Tragedy and Realizations
07:34 Why Do People Leave?
13:47 Empathy for Believers
21:41 Segregated Conferences
26:17 Sweden, Racism, and CRT
32:58 Music and Satanic Panic
44:00 Dr. Ben Carson
49:39 Moving to Sweden
54:02 Ethics and Adventism
1:05:37 Closing Thoughts
Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
Support the Show • Part 1 of Santiago's interview with Dee, a fourth-generation Seventh-day Adventist, about his SDA background, early baptism, education, and what led him out of the church. In our wide-ranging conversation, we discussed racial issues in Adventist schools, the Civil Rights Movement, and more.
Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Video - We Are the World
Topic - Public Enemy
Film - Malcolm X (1992)
Topic - Assassination of MLK Jr.
Topic - Poor People's Campaign
Topic - The 15 Year Battle for MLK Jr Day
Video - MLK: "A riot is the language of the unheard"
Topic - White Americans Celebrated MLK's Death
Topic - Ronald Reagan's wartime lies
00:00 Intro
00:17 Meet Dee: 4th Gen Adventist
02:49 Early Memories & Fearing Ellen White
04:01 Questioning Church Teachings
09:02 A Life-Changing Tragedy
11:04 Living with Fear & Moving to Huntsville
19:01 Baptism and Religious Pressure
22:26 Purity Culture & Mixed Messages
28:51 Weird "Health Message" Fads
31:29 Racial Issues in Adventist Schools
38:11 Civil Rights, Division, MLK
43:30 Deconstructing Beliefs
47:02 How Othering Manipulates Us
53:07 The New Generation
55:29 Trickle Down Greedonomics
1:00:42 Dee's Adventist Education
1:07:16 Goodbye Oakwood, Hello Adulthood
1:11:26 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
Missing episodes?
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Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Rosei Quartz, a former Seventh-day Adventist pastor's kid, content creator, and Twitch streamer. In this episode, we cover more of Rosei's deconstruction, finding contentment and a new outlook on life, complementarianism, consent, mental health, becoming a content creator, and more.
Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Links - Rosei Quartz's Links
Podcast - Rosei Quartz's Podcast
Topic - Complementarianism
Topic - Attachment Styles
Topic - Bill Gothard's "Umbrella of Protection"
Reddit - ex-SDA comments on Gothard's Umbrella
Topic - The FRIES Model of Consent
Book - #ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find Healing
Topic - Youth Wilderness / Troubled Teen Industry
Topic - SWERF Definition
Topic - BITE Model of Authoritarian Control
Topic - Adventist GC "Human Sexuality Task Force"
Podcast - S1B2 - Human Sexuality Task Force
Topic - Weaponized Incompetence
Podcast - The Dream (Examining MLMs)00:00 Intro
00:17 Rosei's Deconstruction
05:16 Contentment and New Worldview
13:47 Complementarianism Hurts Everyone
20:36 Purity Culture & Consent
22:10 Journey into Online SW
28:10 Work is Work
32:27 Online SW vs. Traditional Work
36:33 SWERFs vs. Autonomy
45:04 Adventist Leadership
52:52 Advice for Leaving the Church
55:20 Where to Find Rosei
57:22 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
Support the Show • Santiago interviews Rosei Quartz, a former Seventh-day Adventist pastor's kid, content creator, and Twitch streamer. Rosei shares her Adventist upbringing, the pressures of parasocial relationships, and the high expectations placed upon her as a pastor’s kid. We cover her journey out of Adventism and how studying psychology played a big role.
Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Links - Rosei Quartz's Links
Podcast - Rosei Quartz's Podcast
Podcast - Armchair Expert - Cults (Rosei starts at 50:08)
Topic - Complementarianism
Book - #ChurchToo: How Purity Culture Upholds Abuse and How to Find Healing
Topic - LARPing
Topic - Startle Response
Topic - Cry Nights
Topic - Hypervigilance & Hyperawareness
Topic - Terror Management Theory
Topic - Thought-terminating cliché
Podcast - H&H S1:E4 - When Did You Learn About...
Playlist - Debunking Young Earth Creationism00:00 Intro
00:13 Meet Rosei Quartz
01:17 SDA Family History & Early Memories
04:31 Sabbath Mornings
07:33 Pastor's Kid Pressures
17:48 Spiritual Manipulation & Content Creation
26:49 Health Message & Ellen White
30:28 "Spiritual Warfare" & Psychology
38:28 Terror Management Theory
41:55 Why Rosei Left Adventism
43:35 Harmful Beliefs & Pseudoscience
55:12 Crossing Ethical Boundaries
57:46 Ethics & Behavior Modification
1:00:37 High Demand Religion & Mental Health
1:05:11 Personal Growth Outside the Church
1:14:14 OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
Support the Show • Santiago shares some personal news, updates on the future of the show, and listener stories.
Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Slate: Why Do We Give Our Pets Death With Dignity but Not Ourselves?
S1:E2 - Do You Believe in an Afterlife?
More Listener Stories
Podcast Resources
Book ResourcesFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
Support the Show • Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Andres Pichinte (They/Them), a Gen Z ex-Adventist who went from fundamentalist Adventism and going door to door for two summers with Youth Rush, to exploring esotericism and now Orthodox Christianity. We discussed the sales tactics used by Youth Rush, the books they sold and beliefs they encountered, misadventures in door-to-door evangelism, and more.
Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Andres' Website & Bio
Youth Rush Article - Spectrum Magazine00:00 - Haystacks & Hell Intro
00:34 - Youth Rush Canvassing Sales Tactics
06:49 - Books and Beliefs
20:58 - Misadventures in Door-to-Door Evangelism
25:39 - From Fast Food to Film School
32:04 - Embracing Diversity and Finding Acceptance
37:28 - Exploring Orthodoxy
46:06 - Closing Thoughts
48:12 - Haystacks & Hell OutroFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show
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Santiago interviews Andres Pichinte (They/Them), a Gen Z ex-Adventist who went from fundamentalist Adventism and going door to door for Youth Rush (for two summers), to exploring esotericism and now Orthodox Christianity. We talk about growing up Adventist, being surrounded by conspiracy theories, and moments that made them question their Adventist faith.Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Andres' Website & Bio
The Hairbrush Song - Silly Songs with Larry
His Cheeseburger - Love Songs with Mr. Lunt
Youth Rush Article - Spectrum MagazineFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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3rd and final part of Santiago's interview with Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. After escaping her abusive home, Charli discovered she didn't have proof of her U.S. citizenship, so she had to get a green card and worried about possibly being deported. We also discussed her journey of healing and leaving the faith she grew up in.Charli's Links:
TikTok @charli.hayes
Instagram @charlihayes_
YouTube @charlihayes_Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Maskrosbarn ("Dandelion Child")
Mental Health and Therapist ResourcesSupport for Victims of Abuse:
RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline
Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline
The Hotline - National Domestic Violence HotlineFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. She was adopted from Russia and brought to the U.S. as a baby by an Adventist couple. Growing up, Charli experienced horrific things at home. The police and Child Protective Services investigated, but nothing happened, so she ran away from home at 18. She now has over 500k people on TikTok who have been following her life story.Charli's Links:
TikTok @charli.hayes
Instagram @charlihayes_
YouTube @charlihayes_Resources / Topics Mentioned:
Little Duck Diner - Savannah, GA
Hostel in the Forest - Brunswick, GA
Hostelworld - Find hostels around the worldSupport for Victims of Abuse:
RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline
Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline
The Hotline - National Domestic Violence HotlineFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Santiago interviews Charlotte Hayes (Charli), a Gen-Z ex-Adventist. She was adopted from Russia and brought to the U.S. as a baby by an Adventist couple. Growing up, Charli experienced emotional, physical, and sexual abuse at home. The police and Child Protective Services investigated, but nothing happened, so she ran away from home at 18. She now has over 500k people on TikTok who have been following her life story.Charli's Links:
TikTok @charli.hayes
Instagram @charlihayes_
YouTube @charlihayes_Resources / Topics Mentioned:
VeggieTales - Jericho Slushies
Battle (Genocide) of Jericho - Wikipedia
IBLP - Wikipeda
Shiny Happy People: Duggar Family Secrets
Alisa Williams' Thread on SDAs & Shiny Happy People
Katie Morton - Licensed Therapist, YouTuber
Religious Trauma-informed Therapists & Other ResourcesSupport for Victims of Abuse:
RAINN - National Sexual Assault Hotline
Childhelp - National Child Abuse Hotline
The Hotline - National Domestic Violence HotlineKati Morton Videos:
Abuse Topic Playlist
Sexual Abuse: How do we recover & how long does it take?
What is Consent, Assault & Harassment?
What's considered sexual abuse?
Struggling with childhood sexual abuse?
Healing from Sexual Abuse & IncestFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Santiago and Saoirse discuss their very different childhood experiences with Halloween and read some stories from the ex-Adventist subreddit. Abby, Ami, and friends talk around a bonfire (bone fire?) about their experiences with Halloween. That last part of the episode is a little loud, but there's some fun stuff if you're patient.Topics Mentioned:
Scared Straight | Hell House - How Gay Thou Art Podcast
The Addams Family - Wikipedia
Wednesday (Netflix Show)
The Addams Family (1991 Film)
Addams Family Values (1993 Film)
Beetlejuice (1988 Film)
Killer Klowns From Outer Space (1988 Film)Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
Support the Dunk Family • Support the Show
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Part 2 of 2: Santiago interviews Will James, an ex-Adventist husband, dad, lawyer, and TikToker based in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. We discuss writing wills for SDA church members, Will's deconstruction from Adventism, telling his parents, and navigating his own parental responsibilities after deconstructing at just the right moment.Topics Mentioned:
Will's Law Practice Website
Will's TikTok (@will.i.jam)
Ada Lois Sipuel Fisher
Iyanla Vanzant "The past is present"
Rachel Held Evans (Author)
Peter Ennes (Author)
Non-binary Gender
Singular They
Left-handednessOther Episodes Mentioned:
Melissa Duge Spiers Interview (S1E10 - Part 1)
Melissa Duge Spiers Interview (S1E11 - Part 2)
Matthew Vollmer Interview (S1E16 - Part 1)
Matthew Vollmer Interview (S1E17 - Part 2)
Race, Slavery, and Racism in Christianity and Adventism (S1E19)
The Amalgamation of Man and Beast!? (S1E20)Adventist Estate Stories:
Bahamian Family Alleges $30 Million Fraud Involving 3ABN
SDA Church Stealing Estates
Grandma’s money went to 3ABNFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Part 1 of 2: Santiago interviews Will James, an ex-Adventist husband, dad, lawyer, and TikToker based in the U.S. state of Oklahoma. We discuss his parents' conversion to Adventism (along with 30 of their friends?!) when he was two years old. Will grew up with a very literal interpretation of the Bible and Ellen White's writings, and eventually deconstructed everything.
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Topics Mentioned:
Will's TikTok (@will.i.jam)
Oh No, Ross and Carrie - Amazing Facts Series
David Steward Amazing Facts Profile
Will's Blog - Broken Plates and Baptisms
Inception (Movie)Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Santiago interviews Morgan Clae, an ex-Adventist director, producer, and singer-songwriter based in Los Angeles. We discuss purity culture, her time at Walla Walla University, being a student missionary, deconstruction, and becoming agnostic. We also explore the meaning behind the lyrics of Wilder Things, Morgan's song on deconstruction and coming out.Morgan's Links:
Morgan Clae Linktree
YouTube
Spotify
TikTokMorgan's Music Mentioned:
Stay (Music Video)
Wilder Things
26Resources & Topics Mentioned:
Born Again Again Podcast
exAdventist Subreddit
The Greatest Showman
Jesus and John Wayne
Conservatives are upset their kids don’t want to spend Christmas with themFull Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
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Santiago interviews Erika Miller, an ex-SDA teacher, mom, and survivor of abuse. As a young child, Erika was abused by a deacon's son at her home church. She shares her amazing story of resilience, attending Newbold College in the UK, and eventually leaving the Adventist church.Resources Mentioned:
Erika's email: swimlass [at] gmail.com
Therapists and Mental Health Resources
Unbelievable - Netflix ShowThe Netflix show linked above is not about Erika's story, but it's linked here as we briefly discussed Erika’s desire to go into law (timecode 44:32). She was discouraged by her parents, who said the legal profession isn't suitable for a Christian woman. I mentioned the show because it’s based on a true story of a serial r*pist who got away with his crimes in part by committing them in different cities or counties, and the police departments didn’t share any information with each other.
The show centers on a woman who was the most recent victim and spoke to the police, but the two male detectives who questioned her didn’t believe her and ultimately gaslit her into recanting her testimony. It wasn’t until a female detective began noticing a pattern and believed the victim that they finally were able to put the pieces together and catch the r*pist.
The show is relevant because it illustrates how discouraging women from entering certain professions has put us at a disadvantage, and why listening to victims is incredibly important.
Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/S2E1
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Credits: Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
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For the final episode of Season 1, Santiago does a deep dive on the "amalgamation" quotes. Abby and Ami talk about bigotry in the Seventh-Day Adventist church and particularly in the southern United States culture of the church. The conversation covers racism, homophobia, dating, trans issues, segregated conferences, and "the amalgamation of man and beast."Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
Sources Mentioned:
2021 Poll: 94% of Americans Approve of Interracial Marriage
"Base Crime" Definition from 1858 Dictionary
Racist book from 1867: The Negro, what is his ethnological status?
Uriah Smith's Defense of Ellen White's Amalgamation Quotes
James White promoting Uriah Smith's Book
Adventist Responses:
Adventist Today - Was Ellen White an Infallible Theologian?
Dr. Benjamin Baker - Ellen White on Amalgamation
Terrie Aamodt (59:00), Benjamin Baker (1:32:30) on Amalgamation
Ellen White Estate - Amalgamation by Francis D. Nichol
Tunkhannock SDA Church on Amalgamation
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Credits: Abby and Ami, creators of the Seventh-day Atheist Podcast • Music: Hall of the Mountain King Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) • Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License -
Support the Show • Support on Patreon
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Santiago covers a brief history of race, slavery, and racism in the context of Christianity and Adventism. We look at the Bible, Ellen White's writings, and the history of how the Adventist church created a segregated conference system in the United States. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notesRace, Pseudoscience, and Science
Adam Hochman - Is ‘race’ modern?
Gregory Slack - The Medieval Origins of 'Race'
Historical origins of racial classification
Limpieza de sangre
Scientific Racism
National Academies - Stop using race
Did Evolutionary Theory Cause Genocide?
Charles Darwin on Racism, Slavery, and Eugenics
Racism within Christianity and AdventismChristian views on slavery
Christian abolitionism
'The Curse of Ham': Slavery and the Old Testament
German and Austrian churches apologize for Holocaust actions
Adventism’s White Supremacy
Why are there Regional Conferences?
Protest & Progress Speech - Dr. Calvin B. Rock
A House on Fire Panel Discussion
James Kemuel Humphrey
Byard, Lucille (1877–1943)
ReparationsReparations for slavery in the United States
The Truth Behind ’40 Acres and a Mule’
Forty acres and a mule
Ellen White on Reparations
Recommended ReadingA House on Fire
Protest & Progress
Seventh-day Adventists and the Civil Rights Movement
How to Be an Antiracist
How to Raise an Antiracist
How to Be a (Young) Antiracist
Antiracist Baby
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Santiago interviews Cherie Marie, a body image coach, BodyBarre instructor, and former 4th generation Adventist who grew up in California, Ohio, and Berrien Springs, Michigan. We discuss food, purity culture, and much more including overcoming challenges with food and body image. Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
Cherie's Info:
To claim a 90-minute session with Cherie, send her a Direct Message on Instagram and mention the promo code "Hell"
Instagram - alchemy1.0
TikTok - cheriemaried
Other topics mentioned:
Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking
Eve Was Framed - Instagram
Gabor Maté - Wikipedia
Sex and Sensibility
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Part 2 of Santiago's interview with Matthew Vollmer, an ex-Adventist writer and English professor at Virginia Tech who just so happens to be the nephew of Ted Wilson, the current President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.
Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
Matthew's Links:
Book - All of Us Together in the End
Essay - This I Believed
Essay - The Man With Two Heads
Website / Bio
Books Mentioned:
The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are - Alan Watts
The Denial of Death - Ernest Becker
Other Topics Mentioned:
TikTok - Rachel Klinger Cain
The Road Not Taken - Robert Frost
The Architecture of Doom
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Santiago interviews Matthew Vollmer, an ex-Adventist writer and English professor at Virginia Tech who just so happens to be the nephew of Ted Wilson, the current President of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists.Full Transcripts, resources and more: hell.bio/notes
Matthew's Links:
Book - All of Us Together in the End
Essay - This I Believed
Website / Bio
Books Mentioned:
The Doctor and the Damned - Albert Haas
Armageddon - Bart D. Ehrman
The Bible Tells Me So - Peter Enns
The Sins of Scripture - John Shelby Spong
Why Christianity Must Change or Die - John Shelby Spong
Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu
Other Topics Mentioned:
Albert Haas and Mauthausen
Music from Matthew's friend John Ringhofer
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