Episodes
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As our series honoring the tragic plane crash that killed John F. Kennedy Jr., Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, and Lauren Bessette continues in the leadup to the 25-year anniversary of the crash on July 16, I’m so happy to welcome William D. Cohan to the show, who wrote a book not just about his friend from Andover, John, but also about three other friends from the prep school that lost their lives far too soon. This is such an interesting concept for a book—in his book Four Friends: Promising Lives Cut Short, which came out in 2019, William introduces us to four of his friends from boarding school who all died far, far too soon. One of them is John, who we spend the bulk of today’s episode talking about, but we also meet Jack Berman, the child of impoverished Holocaust survivors, who achieves the American dream—only to have his life ended in a senseless act of violence. Then we have Will Daniel, the grandson of President Harry Truman and the son of the managing editor of The New York Times, who does everything to escape a family legacy he’s ultimately trapped by. He dies tragically, as does Harry Bull, who—like John would as well—takes an inexplicable and devastating risk on a beautiful summer day that ultimately ends his life. Even the story of John—who, of course, we all think we know—is told through a new lens in this book. This book will make you appreciate life and realize how very, very fragile it really is. All of these men met at Andover, the most elite of American boarding schools, and went on to forge lives for themselves, lives that, as William writes, were “ended just as they were getting going.” This book gives us a glimpse into John in his Andover years, specifically, and William writes about what it was like to know a young John, what it was like to meet Mrs. Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, and so much insight into John, who lost his life far too soon as just 38 years old.
William D. Cohan is a journalist perhaps most known for covering Wall Street and high finance; he’s written for Vanity Fair as a special correspondent and writes regularly for The New York Times, The Financial Times, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and Fortune, and is an on-air contributor for CNBC. He’s also written other bestselling books, like The Last Tycoons and House of Cards: A Tale of Hubris and Wretched Excess on Wall Street, Money and Power: How Goldman Sachs Came to Rule the World, The Price of Silence (which is about the Duke lacrosse scandal that gripped the nation), and Why Wall Street Matters. Since Four Friends came out in 2019, he has published the 2022 book Power Failure: The Rise and Fall of an American Icon about the General Electric Company. He was a senior Wall Street M&A investment banker for 17 years and also appears regularly on MSNBC, CNN, BBC, and Bloomberg TV, where he is a contributing editor. I enjoyed my conversation with him so much, and I know you will enjoy it, too.
Four Friends: Promising Lives Cut Short by William D. Cohan
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Hi listeners—please be advised that this episode is true crime in nature and contains graphic descriptions of a violent crime. If this may be triggering for you, please skip this episode, and we’ll see you back in your feed later this week. Take care of yourselves.
We have spoken on I’d Rather Be Reading before about the horrendous quadruple homicide that took place in Moscow, Idaho, in November 2022, where four University of Idaho students were viciously murdered—brutally stabbed to death with a military style knife—while they slept in their off-campus home. Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin senselessly lost their lives on November 13, 2022, and while there has been an arrest made for their deaths, Bryan Kohberger, the accused, has not yet gone to trial. At the crime scene, 1122 King Road, there was no sign of forced entry or damage inside the home. Nothing appeared to be missing. The victims were stabbed multiple times with fatal wounds in the chest and upper body with a large knife. At least one victim had defensive wounds on her hands, and no murder weapon has ever been found. Kohberger was arrested on December 30, 2022, in Pennsylvania; the death penalty is currently being sought in his case, which likely won’t go to trial until next year. He was arrested on four counts of first-degree murder and one felony count of burglary; he pled not guilty to all charges.
Today on the show we have who I consider to be the foremost expert on the case—Howard Blum, who has written a new book, When the Night Comes Falling: A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders, which came out June 25. Howard’s book, interestingly, is bookended with the stories of two fathers—the book opens being told through the eyes of Bryan Kohberger’s father, Michael, and closes with Steve Goncalves, Kaylee’s father. The level of detail in When the Night Comes Falling is remarkable and heartbreaking, and Howard has a theory about who the target of the crime was—and it’s not who many have speculated it to be all along. In this episode, Howard and I talk about the two surviving roommates and their puzzling actions on that November 13, about Kohberger’s trial and when it’s expected to finally take place, about whether Howard thinks, as I do, that they tore down 1122 King Road—the site of the murders—too prematurely, and so much more. This is a case that haunts me and haunts so many others, I know—many of us remember being carefree college students, and to think of our lives so savagely being cut short as they were really just beginning is tragic and devastating. I know we all want justice for Kaylee, Maddie, Xana, and Ethan, and I hope we find it.
Let me tell you about the dynamic Howard Blum: he is a contributing editor at Vanity Fair, a frequent contributor to Air Mail (which is where I found his work), a former reporter for both The Village Voice and The New York Times, and the author of several nonfiction books, including the New York Times bestseller American Lightning, about the October 1, 1910 bombing of the Los Angeles Times building by union members. Several of his books are bestsellers, actually, and I have no doubt that When the Night Comes Falling will be, too. He earned two Pulitzer Prize nominations while working at The New York Times and has also been nominated for a Pulitzer for his coverage of the Idaho student murders. I can’t imagine that he won’t eventually win a Pulitzer for his coverage in this space. When the Night Comes Falling is the definitive and inside story of this horrific crime, which Howard has covered from the very beginning.
When the Night Comes Falling: A Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders by Howard Blum
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As we continue our series on John F. Kennedy Jr., Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, and Lauren Bessette to honor the 25-year anniversary of their tragic deaths in a July 16, 1999, plane crash, we are going to be talking to people that knew the victims—and I truly want to thank each and every one of them for their courage in talking about them. As I told each of my guests in our pre-show, I know that, to them, these aren’t just celebrities—these are real people and real friends who they loved and lost, and I am so thankful that they all, first of all, shared their stories in the pages of a book, and then, later, with me on this show. Thank you all for having conversations with me.
Today on the show we have Dr. Steven M. Gillon, author of the 2019 book America’s Reluctant Prince: The Life of John F. Kennedy Jr. Dr. Gillon is a leading historian and scholar who was also a close friend of John’s, and I ask him what it is like to examine John from both a historic lens and a deeply personal lens in this book. In America’s Reluctant Prince—which is a great title, by the way—he not only shares his own experience, but also shares exclusive interviews and information from previously classified documents about John’s life, from before his birth until the day he died 25 years ago, a full picture of, as the book puts it, John’s “complicated and rich life.” Dr. Gillon is the scholar-in-residence at the History Channel, a professor of history at the University of Oklahoma, and senior faculty fellow at the Miller Center for the Study of the Presidency at the University of Virginia. Before his current academic appointment, he spent nine years teaching history at Yale and three years at Oxford. He is one of the nation’s leading experts in modern American history and politics, and his articles have appeared not just in academic journals but also in outlets like The Boston Globe, The Los Angeles Times, The New York Daily News, and The Chicago Tribune. Over the past decade, Dr. Gillon has hosted a number of shows on the History Channel and has also served as the main narrator and executive producer for a number of History Channel and A&E documentary specials, including many about the Kennedy family; he also served as the chief consultant on the History Channel’s eight-hour series, The Presidents. Dr. Gillon frequently contributes to HuffPost and has appeared on Today, Good Morning America, CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News as a commentator and expert on issues related to modern American history, and has written or edited nearly a dozen books, including The Pact: Bill Clinton, Newt Gingrich, and the Rivalry That Defined a Generation and the book we are discussing today, about his dear friend John, who he met while at Brown—they met when Dr. Gillon gave a lecture to a class that JFK Jr. was taking about none other than John’s father, President John F. Kennedy. What a way to meet and begin a friendship!
America’s Reluctant Prince: The Life of John F. Kennedy Jr. by Dr. Steven M. Gillon
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I still remember exactly where I was on Saturday, July 17, 1999, when the news bulletin flashed across the screen that the small plane carrying John F. Kennedy Jr., his wife Carolyn, and her sister Lauren was missing. The three had flown out of New Jersey’s Essex County Airport the night before, Friday, July 16, in John’s Piper Saratoga plane, headed for Martha’s Vineyard, where they were to drop off Lauren and then go on to Hyannis Port, Massachusetts, where John and Carolyn were due to attend the wedding of cousin Rory Kennedy the next day. But they never made it there, and their plane crashed into the dark waters of the Atlantic Ocean, killing all three passengers instantly. John was 38 years old, Lauren was 35, and Carolyn, just 33 years old.
For our third series on I’d Rather Be Reading, we are focusing on John, Carolyn, and Lauren ahead of the 25-year anniversary of their tragic deaths on July 16. To kickstart our series we have the brilliant biographer Christopher Andersen, who has written 35 books, many of them bestsellers, and two of them about JFK Jr. specifically. Christopher is our guest today to provide context to the landscape of John’s life in 1999; we will later talk to many people who knew John and Carolyn, but to lay the groundwork for those conversations, I thought Christopher would be the perfect person. He has worked at Time and later as a senior editor at People; he has also written for The New York Times, Vanity Fair, Life, and The New York Daily News. He has appeared on nearly every media outlet you can think of discussing culture, and has written many, many books on the Kennedys, the royal family, Katharine Hepburn, Madonna, Mick Jagger, Michael Jackson, the Clintons, the Bushes, the Obamas, Barbra Streisand, and so many more. Today, we’re focusing on two of his books: The Day John Died, released in 2000, and The Good Son: JFK. Jr. and the Mother He Loved, which came out in 2014. Both are fantastic, and I’m excited to kick our series off today and for you to hear from Christopher.
All by Christopher Andersen:
The Day John Died
The Day John Died 25th Anniversary E-Book
The Good Son: JFK Jr. and the Mother He Loved
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This conversation today with my new friend Glynnis MacNicol is so empowering, as is her latest book, I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself: One Woman’s Pursuit of Pleasure in Paris, which came out June 11. In Glynnis’ latest memoir, she takes us to Paris during the pandemic—a Paris she calls “quiet Paris”—where, because of COVID, there’s no tourists coming in, and because it’s August, all of the Parisian locals are headed out. It was a magical experience, and Glynnis kind of had the city to herself. In this book and in our conversation today we dissect why it’s still so taboo for women to want to experience pleasure—which Glynnis does during this season in her life, leaning into, as she writes, “the audacity of being selfish.” She writes in the book that “The thing women fantasize about most is freedom”; we talk about that in our conversation today, and I was struck by Glynnis’ ability to so vividly make her reader feel as though they were right alongside her in Paris, experiencing all the city has to offer in a very unique time. In this book, Glynnis writes about the way society regards women over 40; she will turn 50 in early September, and she writes that when you’re a woman of a “certain age,” you are only promised that everything will get worse—but what if everything you’ve been told is a lie? After Glynnis—who, at the time, was 46 and unmarried with no children—spent 18 months in isolation, from March 2020 to August 2021 as the pandemic raged on, this memoir sees her break out of her tiny Manhattan apartment and across the Atlantic to Paris; what follows is, as the book reads, a decadent, joyful, unexpected journey into one woman’s pursuit of radical enjoyment, with her weeks filled with food and friendship and, yes, sex. Glynnis also write the 2018 memoir No One Tells You This about turning 40 and also created and hosted the podcast Wilder: A Reckoning with the Legacy of Laura Ingalls Wilder; she’s written everywhere from The New York Times to The Guardian, The Cut, Town & Country, The Daily Beast, Elle, and The New York Daily News, among others. I can’t wait for you to hear what she has to say.
I’m Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself: One Woman’s Pursuit of Pleasure in Paris by Glynnis MacNicol
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There are so many books coming out this month about rethinking women and the workplace—specifically by former magazine editors, which, as a magazine editor, I’m really into. Out today is one of the best books I’ve read in a long time, Samhita Mukhopadhyay’s powerful The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning, which opens with a beautiful epigraph from Toni Morrison that reads “You are not the work you do; you are the person you are.” So many of us have bought into, as Samhita calls it, the myth of making it—as she writes, our definitions of success are myths, and seductive ones, at that. She writes in the book that we have a collective responsibility to re-imagine work as we know it, and she advocates for a liberated workplace that pays fairly, recognizes our values, and gives people access to the resources they need. The book traces the origins of, basically, how we’ve been getting it all wrong all of these years—I especially enjoyed the rethinking of Helen Gurley Brown, former editor-in-chief at Cosmopolitan and author of Sex and the Single Girl, as well as rethinking Lean In and Girlboss and hustle culture. Samhita writes about how millions of us “in the past decade—and especially during and after the pandemic—have looked at their lives and said, ‘What the fuck?’ Why are we working all the time to make less than our male counterparts? Why are we doing most of the childcare, even when our partnerships are ‘equal’? Why have we sacrificed so much of our personal happiness to be driven by these undefined measures of success? Why were we spending more time with our coworkers than with anyone else in our lives? Why are we tired all the time?” She adds, “The way we work has become untenable, both personally and globally. We are craving something more and something better,” and she adds, of her rock bottom while executive editor at a major fashion magazine, “all I could think was, This is not normal. There must be a better way. My hope is, together, we can find it.” In this book and in this conversation, Samhita discusses the end of the hustle, Anna Wintour, burnout, working moms, and so much more. Samhita is the former executive editor of Teen Vogue and former executive editor at Feministing. As a writer, her work has appeared in New York Magazine, The Cut, Vanity Fair, Vogue, The Atlantic Monthly, and Jezebel. Let’s get into our conversation.
The Myth of Making It: A Workplace Reckoning by Samhita Mukhopadhyay
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You may not know the name Judith Jones, but you’ve certainly felt this dynamic woman’s impact and influence on culture. Judith Jones was the editor behind books like The Diary of Anne Frank and Mastering the Art of French Cooking by Julia Child; she was also behind authors like Sylvia Plath, John Updike, Langston Hughes, Sharon Olds, and so many others. Her work, as our guest today writes in her new book, was “unrivaled in the industry.” Book editors are kind of shadow figures—they’re behind-the-scenes, unsung heroes, who, as Sara B. Franklin writes in her book The Editor: How Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America, which came out on May 28, are people who “work in the service of their authors, not themselves, and their touch is meant to be difficult, if not impossible, for readers to see”—a bit of an invisible hand, if you will. Judith Jones rose through the ranks of publishing when it was very much an industry still dominated by men; one of her gifts was the ability to see talent in women writers, especially women writers many had overlooked. It’s hard to believe that, for example, publishers weren’t chomping at the bit for the works of Anne Frank or Julia Child, but they weren’t; it was Judith who saw their books through to the finish line. She is most associated with cookbooks, and Sara writes that Judith may never have fully gotten the respect she so deserved because “books about food were (and to some extent still are) treated with an air of condescension by the literary world.” Sara and I talk about that on the show today, as well as topics like Judith’s portrayal in the 2009 Nora Ephron film Julie & Julia—which Judith didn’t like so much—and some of Judith’s misses, like with the aforementioned Sylvia Plath and The Bell Jar. Through Sara’s book, Judith emerges from the shadows to the spotlight—the amount of passion and dedication Sara put into this bestselling book is remarkable. I can’t wait for you to meet Sara and, through her, meet Judith. A little about Sara: she is a writer, teacher, and oral historian who teaches courses on food, writing, embodied culture, and oral history at NYU’s Gallatin School of Individualized Study. In addition to writing The Editor, she also edited Edna Lewis, co-authored The Phenicia Diner Cookbook, and holds a PhD in food studies from NYU and studied documentary storytelling at both the Duke Center for Documentary Studies and the Salt Institute for Documentary Studies. Take a listen to our conversation.
The Editor: How Judith Jones Shaped Culture in America by Sara B. Franklin
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Alzheimer’s and finding a cure for it is a cause I am deeply passionate about; we have spoken about it on the show many times before. I couldn’t be more thrilled to bring you today’s guest, Dr. Heather Sandison, who is here to talk to us about her brand-new book Reversing Alzheimer’s: The New Toolkit to Improve Cognition and Protect Brain Health, which came out June 11. This book is a much-needed exploration of this awful disease, and how both patients and their caregivers can take back control. There are currently 6.5 million Americans alone living with Alzheimer’s, and that number only grows. As Dr. Sandison writes, the urgency for a solution has never been greater, and this book helps us find one. Dr. Sandison is at the forefront of dementia care and research. She is both the founder of Solcere Health Clinic (which is San Diego’s premier brain optimization clinic) and also Marama, the first residential memory care facility to have the goal and aim of returning cognitively declined residents back to independent living. She sees up close and personal every single day what Alzheimer’s and dementia looks like, and she’s doing something about both preventing it and reversing it. The main takeaway that I got from Reversing Alzheimer’s was that there is hope, and that we have more power to fight back against this disease than we previously thought we did. There is a growing body of evidence that shows that implementing a handful of strategies can improve cognition and quality of life in dementia patients, and this book lays out this customizable and doable approach so that work can begin immediately in that effort. If you are looking to fortify your brain health against cognitive decline, implement lifestyle changes that can reverse the effects of Alzheimer’s, transform your environment to support cognitive wellness, and understand options for brain health to fit any budget—this book is for you. This book, for anyone who has experienced Alzheimer’s up close, is a big exhale; Dr. Sandison wants a future where Alzheimer’s is not a terminal diagnosis, but a reversible condition, a future free of the affliction of this disease. I think you, like me, will find hope in these pages and in this conversation. Dr. Sandison is a renowned neuropathic doctor specializing in neurocognitive medicine and is also the primary author of the peer-reviewed research “Observed Improvement in Cognition During a Personalized Lifestyle Intervention in People with Cognitive Decline,” which was published in the Journal of Alzheimer’s Disease last August. She also hosts the annual online Reverse Alzheimer’s Summit, where she shares cutting-edge insight into what is possible for those suffering with dementia. Dr. Sandison is the doctor I wish my family had when my grandparents were suffering with dementia, but one that I’m also so glad is here now with the mission of making dementia rare and optional, and to shatter common misconceptions about Alzheimer’s and share what she has learned about keeping our brains sharp, no matter our age.
Reversing Alzheimer’s: The New Toolkit to Improve Cognition and Protect Brain Health by Dr. Heather Sandison
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I’m really excited to bring you today’s conversation with Erika Ayers Badan, who you might know as the woman formerly known as Erika Nardini. (Erika got married, and that explains the name change.) Erika is perhaps most well-known as not just the first female CEO of Barstool Sports, but the first CEO of Barstool Sports, period. If you’re not familiar with Barstool somehow, it’s a sports and pop culture blog that also has podcasts and videos under its umbrella—it’s not afraid to be controversial and shake the industry up, and I think maybe the best word to describe the company is chaotic. Intentionally chaotic. Erika was extremely successful at Barstool, which grew to more than 5 billion monthly video views and 225 million followers under her leadership and was valued at $550 million. During her time at Barstool, Erika referred to herself, very tongue-in-cheek, as a “token CEO,” not only the rare female employee but, again, the CEO of a very male-dominated culture. Not only has Erika experienced ample professional success—and I’ll talk more about that in a moment—but she is someone who clearly just loves to work. She loves what she does. She is invigorated and energized by it, and I relate to that, because I am the same way. Erika’s first book is out today, June 11, and is called Nobody Cares About Your Career: Why Failure Is Good, the Great Ones Play Hurt, and Other Hard Truths, and it is basically a career manual for women and men on how to get it done and have a career that means something. It’s advice from someone who is firmly in the arena; it’s real and raw, tell it to you straight—much like Erika herself. There’s more advice in this book than I could ever give in this episode—it’s page after page of it—and this book is all-encompassing; it really is a career guide I’ll keep with me and return to and return to, again and again. It’s a playbook for success by somebody who has found it. Erika was CEO at Barstool from 2016 until earlier this year, January to be exact; she led the company from 12 employees to over 300 employees, and saw it become a national powerhouse under her leadership. Prior to joining Barstool, Erika held leadership positions at Microsoft, AOL, Demand Media, and Yahoo, and is now, as of April of this year, CEO at Food52, a culinary, lifestyle, and homeware company. One of my favorite aspects of Erika’s philosophy is her fail-always mindset—she embraces failure and doesn’t run from it or shy away from it. As she writes, “Falling down and getting back up—awkwardly at first, but, over time, more gracefully—is what has made my career successful.” There’s a ton of good nuggets here, and I can’t wait for you to read this book and hear our conversation.
Nobody Cares About Your Career: Why Failure Is Good, the Great Ones Play Hurt, and Other Hard Truths by Erika Ayers Badan
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Just when you think you know everything there is to know about the White House, here comes Corey Mead and his book The Hidden History of the White House: Power Struggles, Scandals, and Defining Moments, which came out June 4. This book is presented by the hit podcast “American History Tellers,” and it reveals behind-the-scenes stories of some of the most dramatic events in American history, told from right inside the White House where they happened. Talk about “if these walls could talk”—the White House has been the soundstage for some of the most climactic moments in American history, and its walls have witnessed history-making decisions, power struggles, scandals, and so many stories from the First Family, their guests, and the staff at the White House. Just some of the topics delved into were Andrew Jackson’s disastrous inauguration; Woodrow Wilson’s stroke and his second wife Edith’s basically shadow presidency as his administration came to a close; Dolley Madison’s courageous act when the White House was set aflame in 1814; when U.K. Prime Minister Winston Churchill visited the White House and plotted, with FDR, plans to defeat Germany; and the decision by Barack Obama to green-light the Navy SEAL raid that ultimately killed Osama bin Ladin. I talk about this with Corey, but maybe one of the most fascinating parts to me about the book—and I wasn’t expecting this—was the actual construction of the White House itself and its subsequent renovations, especially the 1948 Truman renovation, which we talk about on the show today. The book is broken into three parts: part one, Laying the Foundation; part two, The People’s House; and part three, Halls of Power—each as fascinating as the last. As Corey writes in the book, “Every corner and hallway has a tale to tell,” and there’s so many of those tales in this book. We have Corey Mead on the show today, the author of this great book and also an associate professor of English at Baruch College, City University of New York. In addition to this book, Corey is also the author of Angelic Music: The Story of Benjamin Franklin’s Glass Armonica and War Play: Video Games and the Future of Armed Conflict. You can also find his work everywhere from Time to Salon, The Daily Beast, and numerous literary journals, and I know you’ll enjoy this conversation.
P.S.: The Rebecca Boggs Roberts episode we mention in this conversation about First Lady Edith Wilson is from season 7, episode 6!
The Hidden History of the White House: Power Struggles, Scandals, and Defining Moments by Corey Mead
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I’m pulling out the champagne and raising a glass to I’d Rather Be Reading, my passion project and the work of my life, a show that celebrates nonfiction books (and, occasionally, some fiction books and children’s books and cookbooks, too) which aired its first episode three years ago today, on June 7, 2021. Happy three-year anniversary, listeners! Our very first episode on the show was a conversation with Lisa Napoli about her book Susan, Linda, Nina, and Cokie: The Extraordinary Story of the Founding Mothers of NPR, about, at its core, women in journalism. As such, to tie it all together with a bow today, our anniversary special features a trailblazing woman in journalism: the dynamic Lynn Povich. Simply put, my career would not exist without Lynn’s courage. Let’s go back in time to the early 1970s. Lynn was working at Newsweek, and at the time, that magazine, like others at the time as well, only hired men as writers. Women did the researching and reporting, but the men got the byline. Lynn writes in her 2012 book The Good Girls Revolt: How the Women of Newsweek Sued Their Bosses and Changed the Workplace that Newsweek had a serious problem—sexism—and that, in her words, “we all accepted it—until we didn’t.” Lynn and a group of 46 other women ultimately sued the magazine for sex discrimination, becoming the first women in the media to sue for sex discrimination and taking part in the first female class action suit. Lynn’s book, Good Girls Revolt, is the first full account of the Newsweek suit, which, by the way, was later turned into a series on Amazon Prime that I loved. Lynn writes that, prior to the lawsuit, “I don’t think it occurred to many of us that we could actually change the system” and continues “in 1970 we challenged the system and changed the conversation in the news media for the women who participated in the lawsuits. The struggle rerouted our lives and bonded us and gave many of us opportunities.” Lynn went on to become Newsweek’s first female senior editor in 1975 and had a 25-year career at the magazine; she left it in 1991 and has since become editor-in-chief of Working Woman magazine and managing editor and senior executive producer for MSNBC.com. Lynn is from a famed journalism family, and she edited a book of columns by her father, renowned Washington Post sports journalist Shirley Povich called All Those Mornings…At the Post; her brother, by the way, is Maury Povich, and her sister-in-law is Connie Chung. I’d love to be at that family dinner table! Lynn’s husband is also a journalist; his name is Stephen Shepard, and he is the former editor-in-chief of Business Week and founding dean of the graduate school of journalism of the City University of New York. There’s no better person I could think of to mark this important day for our show than Lynn Povich, and I’m excited for you to hear from her today.
The Good Girls Revolt: How the Women of Newsweek Sued Their Bosses and Changed the Workplace by Lynn Povich
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When I invited Garrett M. Graff on the show, I did so to chat about his incredible book The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11, which came out in 2019. What I didn’t realize was that, by happenstance, Garrett had another oral history coming out in June, released two days before the eightieth anniversary of D-Day, which is today, June 6. I don’t feel like I have to explain the attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, but just in case you don’t remember the details of D-Day, on June 6, 1944, the invasion of the beaches at Normandy in northern France by troops from the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, and other countries during World War II is one of the most important days in world history; historians often refer to D-Day as the beginning of the end of World War II. At the time, the D-Day invasion was the largest naval, air, and land operation in history, and about 326,000 troops, more than 50,000 vehicles, and some 100,000 tons of equipment had landed. By August 1944, two months later, all of northern France had been liberated, and in the spring of 1945, the Allies defeated the Germans and World War II, blessedly, was over. Today, June 6, 2024, matters, because it’s likely the last anniversary that we will still have any living veterans from that day here with us, as the Greatest Generation has all but left us. Before I go any further, I want to honor those who served on D-Day and in World War II and in any conflict; I also want to honor the lives lost on September 11, 2001. It makes me emotional to think of the debt of gratitude we owe those who served and those who serve, present day. Thank you seems insufficient, but I offer it, nonetheless. Garrett M. Graff, our guest today, has mastered the art of the oral history, a unique way to unpack history that makes it very focused on the human element. Though we do talk about Garrett’s latest book about D-Day, When the Sea Came Alive: An Oral History of D-Day, which came out this past Tuesday, June 4, I’d say the bulk of our conversation is about September 11 and The Only Plane in the Sky, which really is such a vivid human portrait of that tragedy. It is a 360-degree view of the day, a comprehensive, full account of one of the worst days in American history. Garrett has spent nearly two decades covering politics, technology, and national security and is the former editor of Politico. He’s a contributor to CNN and Wired and has written for outlets like Esquire, Rolling Stone, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal, and The New York Times; he also serves as the director of the cyber initiative at the Aspen Institute. In addition to the two aforementioned books, he’s also written The First Campaign: Globalization, the Web, and the Race for the White House, which examined the role of technology in the 2008 presidential race; The Threat Matrix, about the FBI; Raven Rock, about the government’s Cold War Doomsday plans; and the New York Times bestseller Watergate, which was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize in History. The Only Plane in the Sky was also a New York Times bestseller, by the way, and I have no doubt that When the Sea Came Alive will be, as well. He taught at Georgetown for seven years, including courses on journalism and technology, and he’s appeared everywhere from Good Morning America to The Today Show, CBS This Morning, the History Channel, the BBC, Al Jazeera English, and more. He also hosts the podcast “Long Shadow,” an eight-episode series about the lingering questions of 9/11. In this episode, Garrett and talk about these two powerful days in history, ones that should never be forgotten from memory.
All by Garrett M. Graff:
The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11
When the Sea Came Alive: An Oral History of D-Day
“We’re the Only Plane in the Sky” for Politico
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I wasn’t expecting, through Jennifer Romolini’s memoir Ambition Monster, to feel as seen as I was. About workaholism. Ambition addiction. Achievement addiction. Why I am that way. Why I experienced debilitating burnout, which, if you’ve ever experienced true burnout, you know what I mean when I say it is truly debilitating. And then, from the book to this conversation—I don’t like to play favorites, but this conversation has to rank up there with my absolute favorite episodes of this show’s 215 or so episodes. It felt more like a therapy session than an interview. Whatever you want to call it—hustle culture, Girl Boss-ing it, I heard a new term this week actually called “grindset” instead of “mindset”—whatever you want to call it, I know I’m not the only one influenced and affected by it. Jennifer’s book is about what happens when ambition—which certainly is a good thing—turns bad. What happens when workaholism sneaks in, and how this actually relates to childhood trauma. What happens when you get everything you’ve ever dreamed of, and then realize that it’s not enough to fill that hole inside you. And, at last, filling that hole with what is really sustaining, and it’s not work. Achievement addiction and ambition addiction and constantly trying to prove yourself, that addiction—it may not be drugs or booze or gambling or shopping, but it’s an addiction, nonetheless, and nothing done to excess like that is good for you. Jennifer raced up the professional ladder and reached the apex of success: she had a high-profile, C-suite dream job, and even traveled around the country giving speeches on how to make it and what it feels like to have made it. Beyond that, she had a handsome husband, a beautiful child, but, as the book puts it, “beneath this polished surface was a powder keg of unresolved trauma and chronic overwork. It was all about to blow.” This book will make you rethink the way we work, and rethink ambition on the whole. Jennifer co-hosts the podcast “Everything Is Fine,” which examines life for women over 40, with Lucky magazine founding editor Kim France (the show is one of my all-time favorites, though I’m not quite 40); she’s also the author of Weird in a World That’s Not: A Career Guide for Misfits, Fuckups, and Failures, and her work has appeared in outlets like The New York Times, Elle, Fast Company, Vogue, and more. She was a magazine editor in the 2000s, won awards for websites she edited in the 2010s, was a former deputy editor at Lucky alongside Kim, and was also the former Chief Content Officer of ShondaLand.com (as in, yes, the one and only Shonda Rhimes), Vice President of Content for Zooey Deschanel’s HelloGiggles, a writer, speaker, and digital media consultant who likes talking and thinking about women and work. In 2019, Jennifer was asked to be one of 10 authors tasked with creating The New York Times’ “Working Women’s Handbook,” so, yeah, she knows a little bit about women and work. Ambition Monster examines the lies women were and are sold about work and one of my least favorite three-word combination ever, “having it all,” and before we get into it, I should warn you that there is some ample cursing in this episode, as there tends to be when a subject resonates so close to home.
Ambition Monster: A Memoir by Jennifer Romolini
“Society’s Twisted Pleasure in Seeing Strong Women Fail” in Variety
True Love by Jennifer Lopez
Three Women by Lisa Taddeo
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Welcome back to I’d Rather Be Reading—both the start of season 12 and, later this week, our three-year anniversary! We’ve got so much good in store this season, and I’m thrilled, as ever, to be back with you after one long week of a hiatus. Today on the show we have Julie Satow, who is here to chat with me about her latest book, When Women Ran Fifth Avenue: Glamour and Power at the Dawn of American Fashion, which is out June 4. This book and this conversation take us back to the twentieth century department store, a place where women—whether you worked at the department store or were shopping there—could stake out newfound independence, whether you were in New York City or on Main Street USA. Back in the 1930s and going forward to the 1960s, women didn’t rule many places—but they ruled the American department store. Not only is the American department store of those years examined—it’s a whole world unto itself inside its walls—but it’s a story told through the eyes of three women who rose to the top of the department store universe: Hortense Odlum of Bonwit Teller, who came to her husband’s department store as a housewife tasked with attracting more shoppers like herself in the 1930s—and wound up running the company; then we have Dorothy Shaver of Lord & Taylor, who was a champion of American designers during World War II, before which U.S. fashions were almost completely copies of Parisian looks. Dorothy, by the way, was the first businesswoman to earn a $1 million salary. Then, in the 1960s, Geraldine Stutz of Henri Bendel modernized the department store and became an eternal trendsetter in the space. Not only did these women advance their own careers, but they opened doors for all women, as well. We’ve got style, glamour, women’s empowerment, drama, trade secrets, wealth—it’s the department store in all its glitz, decadence, and fun, and looks closely at the women who made the beautifully curated world of the twentieth century department store operate and opened doors for working women everywhere. I am so thankful that, through this book, Julie is ensuring that these three women aren’t lost to history; their fingerprints are still felt today, in both fashion and business. Here to lead us on this journey is Julie Satow, who also wrote the fantastic book The Plaza: The Secret Life of America’s Most Famous Hotel, which was a huge hit and critically acclaimed. Julie is an award-winning journalist, a regular contributor to The New York Times, and she has also been published in Travel + Leisure and Bloomberg Businessweek and appeared on NPR. Take a listen to our conversation!
Both by Julie Satow:
When Women Ran Fifth Avenue: Glamour and Power at the Dawn of American Fashion
The Plaza: The Secret Life of America’s Most Famous Hotel
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We have come to our season 11 finale, unbelievably, and to mark the occasion we have the fantastic, dynamic Sunny Hostin here to talk about her latest book, the third novel in her New York Times bestselling Summer Beach series, Summer on Highland Beach, which is out May 28. The best fiction, to me, not only takes me away, but teaches me something—and Summer on Highland Beach did just that. Highland Beach along the Chesapeake Bay is the oldest Black resort community in America and was founded in the late 1800s by the son of Frederick Douglass. It is a secluded beach community of about 100 private homes, and that’s where Sunny’s latest novel takes us to. As has become a trademark of her Summer Beach series, this book celebrates family, friendship, and community, and reminds us both of the importance of the legacies of our collective past but also about finding one’s way in the world in the present. Olivia Jones is the star of the show in this book, and her story continues to be told by Sunny, who is a three-time Emmy Award winner and a co-host of ABC’s popular The View. She is also an attorney and the Senior Legal Correspondent and Analyst for ABC News and the author, of course, of the other two books in the Summer Beach series: Summer on the Bluffs and Summer on Sag Harbor, both of which I inhaled, as well as Summer on Highland Beach. She is also the author of her memoir, I Am These Truths: A Memoir of Identity, Justice, and Living Between Worlds. I wasn’t aware of an HBBC—or a Historically Black Beach Community—until I read Sunny’s Summer Beach series. These communities have flown pretty under the radar until Sunny brought them to life through this trilogy, and this series absolutely uses place and setting as a character, which listeners, you know I love. Summer on Highland Beach closes the Summer Beach series, and I can’t wait for you to hear what Sunny has to say—I found her to be an absolute joy to be with.
All by Sunny Hostin:
Summer on Highland Beach
Summer on the Bluffs
Summer on Sag Harbor
I Am These Truths: A Memoir of Identity, Justice, and Living Between Worlds
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One of the most important books written in the last few years is Dr. Katy Milkman’s 2021 book How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be, which focuses on the study of behavior change. This is a groundbreaking book in which Dr. Milkman reveals a proven path that can take you from where you are right now to where you want to be and teaches us that change happens most readily when you understand what’s standing between you and success and tailor your solution to that specific roadblock. Dr. Milkman is a behavioral scientist and professor at The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, and this book draws on her original research and the work of her world-renowned scientific collaborators. (The foreword to the book, by the way, was written by another of my favorites, psychologist Dr. Angela Duckworth, author of the fantastic book Grit.) How to Change shares strategic methods for identifying and overcoming common barriers to change, like impulsivity, procrastination, and forgetfulness, and gives us practical tips and tactics backed by science to help us achieve our goals, once and for all. Dr. Milkman has worked with numerous organizations on how to achieve positive change, including Google, the U.S. Department of Defense, Walmart, the White House, and the American Red Cross. Her research is regularly featured by media outlets like The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and NPR, and she currently co-directs the Behavior Change for Good Initiative at Penn as well as hosts the podcast Choiceology, a popular Charles Schwab show about behavioral economics. Speaking of The New York Times, How to Change was not only a bestseller but also named one of the eight best books for healthy living in 2021 by that outlet. Dr. Milkman is a Princeton and Harvard graduate and, as you’ll hear us talk about, wrote a book that truly changed my life, personally. I can’t wait for you to hear what she has to say.
How to Change: The Science of Getting from Where You Are to Where You Want to Be by Dr. Katy Milkman
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When it comes to people I am most compelled by, living or dead, right there at the top of the list is Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy. And, actually, one of the parts of Carolyn I am the least compelled by is who she married, even though, trust me, I love John F. Kennedy Jr. separately, all on his own. But, while she became one-half of one of the most famous couples in the world in the 1990s, it’s Carolyn herself that I’m interested in. Carolyn was such a mystery and an enigma during her all too short life; she was elusive, stylish, elegant, graceful, glamorous, and, before Elizabeth Beller’s new book Once Upon a Time: The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy, which is out today, May 21, largely unknown. The unrelenting media portrayed Carolyn as an ice queen, a snob—but, as you’ll hear Elizabeth explain today in our conversation, she was anything but. In fact, a word Elizabeth closely associates with Carolyn is compassion—unfailing compassion. Like all of us, Carolyn was multi-layered, and the woman you’ll meet in this conversation and in Elizabeth’s book is, arguably, I think one we’d all like to know, and we’d all like to have as a friend. And her marriage is nowhere near the most fascinating part of her story. Carolyn died at just 33 years old; unbelievably, the 25th anniversary of her death is this upcoming July 16. Because of how private she was and because of a lack of information, Carolyn was incredibly misunderstood and, heretofore, I think we’ve really gotten her all wrong. But, according to those who knew her, she made people feel like they were the only person in the room. She had a timeless style that was minimalist, with a muted color palette—inspired, at least in part, because of her relationship with the paparazzi, which we get into today. Carolyn would be 58 years old today, and I’m so pleased to introduce you to her biographer, Elizabeth Beller. Elizabeth is a writer and journalist specializing in culture, art, and travel with more than 15 years under her belt as a book and story editor. Her work has appeared in Vogue, Travel + Leisure, and The Guardian, and prior to becoming a writer and editor, was a script reader for Miramax and worked for 12 years at Sotheby’s Auction House. In this book, Elizabeth really brings us a comprehensive look at a multifaceted woman who is, in the book’s own words, worthy of our attention regardless of her husband and untimely death.
Once Upon a Time: The Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette-Kennedy by Elizabeth Beller
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Welcome to episode three of three in my royal fiction series, which we started with Katharine McGee, continued with Linda Keir, and are finishing with Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan, authors of both The Royal We and The Heir Affair. I would argue that The Royal We released in 2015—actually kickstarted this trend of royal fiction that continues and continues today. In this book—which is inspired by the love story of Prince William and Kate Middleton—we meet an American girl, Bex Porter, who meets a dreamy guy named Nick while at Oxford, and finds herself accidentally in love with, casually, the heir to the British throne. Interestingly, the American aspect was introduced by Heather and Jessica in 2015, before Prince Harry ever met Meghan Markle the next year, in 2016. In 2020, the follow up to The Royal We, The Heir Affair, was released, and in this book, we find (slight spoiler alert here) Bex adjusting to royal life, including a scandalous secret that turned her wedding to Nick into a nightmare, leaving them in self-imposed exile. Trying so hard to not give spoilers here. In this book we get to know the character of Freddie more, and—you know what, you just need to add these two books to your summer beach bag, and you just need to read the books. Because if I keep going, I’m going to give plot points away, and I don’t want to do that. I am so thrilled to have had the chance to chat with the dynamic Heather and Jessica, who, in addition to writing these two books, are the creators of the unparalleled celebrity fashion blog, Go Fug Yourself, and are known as such as The Fug Girls. In addition to The Royal We and The Heir Affair, they’ve also written two young adult novels, Spoiled and Messy, and have written everywhere from New York Magazine to Vanity Fair to Cosmopolitan, The New York Times, The Washington Post, W, Glamour, and more. One thing we actively and intentionally avoid in this conversation is the real-life happenings of the royal family—so if you’re looking for dish and juice on that, you’ll be disappointed—but you won’t be disappointed in this chat, which is fantastic. In this conversation, we prefer to stay in the fictional world of Bex and Nick and Freddie, and I think you’ll find that you’ll enjoy it there with us. These two women are phenomenal.
The Royal We by Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan
The Heir Affair by Heather Cocks and Jessica Morgan
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One of my absolute new favorite people is Stephanie Harrison, author of the book New Happy: Getting Happiness Right in a World That’s Got It Wrong, which came out this past Tuesday, May 14. This book is being billed as “the definitive guide to happiness” and is packed full of a decade’s worth of research that leads us to a proven path of happiness. Who among us doesn’t want to be happier, and who among us hasn’t struggled with happiness? In this book, Stephanie—who has potentially the coolest job title in the world, happiness expert—walks us through the counterintuitive secrets to happiness and gives us a practical guide to help us all learn how to live a happy life. As Stephanie writes, we all want to be happy—but happiness always seems out of reach. Well, until now anyway. Stephanie draws on hundreds of studies to help us find happiness and makes it clear that it’s not our fault we’re unhappy. See, we’ve as a society been told three damaging lies: that we aren’t good enough, that we need to achieve wealth, fame, and power, and that we need to do it on our own. This is what Stephanie calls “Old Happy,” or our society’s false definition of happiness—and, as you may have noticed, it’s making us absolutely miserable. Now, it’s time for “New Happy,” which includes the truths that you are enough, you have unique and important gifts, and using them to help other people is what will lead to happiness. I also have to make mention here that, in addition to the obviously very powerful words included within, the book is just full of this artwork that is extraordinary, too, that helps explain the concepts. We learn in the book how to unwind “Old Happy,” and firmly step into “New Happy.” Basically, if you’ve ever asked the questions “Who am I, really?” or “When will I be happy?” or “What am I supposed to do with my life?”—this book is for you (so, yeah, everyone). In addition to being a happiness expert, Stephanie is a writer, designer, and speaker, complete with a master’s degree in positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania. She’s devoted her life to the study of well-being—truly, what a noble pursuit—and her company, The New Happy (which Stephanie founded in 2018) has revolutionized the way people understand and pursue happiness. In addition to this new book, there’s a podcast, a newsletter, videos, and so many resources that reach millions around the world each month, a science-backed philosophy of happiness. Her happiness expertise has been featured everywhere from CNBC to the Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, Forbes, and Architectural Digest, and she is a regular speaker at Fortune 500 companies. Before taking on this happiness work full steam, she was the director of learning at Thrive Global. Speaking of learning, I look forward to you doing just that with Stephanie in this episode.
New Happy: Getting Happiness Right in a World That’s Got It Wrong by Stephanie Harrison
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There is no novel better than a Plum Sykes novel, and I have mentioned on the show what a fan I am of Plum’s work—and of Plum, period, end of story. I have another special fiction pick for you listeners as we’re starting to plan summer beach trips and pool days—Plum’s latest, Wives Like Us, is an absolute must for your summer TBR. It comes out today, May 14, and I tore through it and wanted more of Ian the butler (you’ll hear Plum and I talk about him plenty on the show today). Truly, Plum is one of the ultimate icons of fiction to me. Let’s talk about Wives Like Us before we get into getting to know a bit about Plum herself: this book takes us to the Cotswolds, specifically “The Bottoms,” and introduces us to the luxe life there, specifically the life and the concept of “the Country Princess,” which Plum explains in our chat today. Plum lives in the English countryside, so it’s a world she knows well. The signature of Plum’s novels is that they’re so juicy and dishy and high society-focused—upper crust and rich and glamorous. This is her fourth novel, following Bergdorf Blondes, The Debutante Divorcee, and Party Girls Die in Pearls, which came out in 2016, if I’m not mistaken, so it’s been a moment since I’ve gotten my Plum Sykes novel fix. Let me tell you about her, without further ado. First of all, Plum and her twin sister, Lucy, were the “It Girls” in New York City high society, Plum working at Vogue under Anna Wintour and Lucy at Marie Claire, where, actually, I now work. Plum is a fashion journalist, novelist, and socialite and was born in London and educated at Oxford, and remains a contributing editor at Vogue, where she writes about society, fashion, and Hollywood. She has also written for Vanity Fair. I’m a fan of Plum’s writing and just Plum as a person, and there’s no question that you, too, will fall in love with her after listening to our conversation.
Wives Like Us by Plum Sykes
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