Episodes
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Today I am talking with Elaine Johnson from the Environmental Defenders Office about climate litigation in Australia. With a unique situation as a rich country on the frontlines of climate impacts and a coal exporter, Australia has emerged as a world leader in climate litigation and 2022 was a bumper year.
Among the big headline wins was the Tiwi Santos case which barred oil and gas company Santos from offshore drilling in the Northern Territory, and another which shut down billionaire Clive Palmerâs plans for a coal mine in Queensland.
As this field matures, we are seeing new frontiers emerge and one of the most exciting trends is lawsuits on greenwashing.
So watch out in 2023 for the lawsuit against Santos for misleading and deceptive claims in its net zero plan.
Despite the impact of these lawsuits, Elaine cautions that the biggest challenge is the stranglehold of the industry narrative on the media. That narrative asserts that coal is part of the transition, that Australian coal is cleaner than coal from other places, and that coal is a part of the national identity.
Donât miss our conversation on this exciting, and fast developing field.
đ And you can find a full transcript of our conversation over on the podcast website here.
What we talked about:
2:25 Why Australia has a big role to play in reducing emissions as historically the country has been a big exporter of coal, oil and gas. But it is also one of the driest continents on earth, and vulnerable to climate impacts.
4.40 Elaine talks about an ongoing case, which is a world first, challenging gas company Santos for misleading and deceptive claims in their corporate net zero plan for 2040.
12.40 Landmark human rights case in 2022 in Queensland in which youth group including First Nations Australians defeated Clive Palmerâs plans to build a massive coal mine, invoking threat to human rights of young people and First Nations Australians.
16.30 This case involved an important innovation in how evidence is heard. First time ever that the land court which hears all the applications for mining projects in Queensland, was invited to hear from First Nations witnesses on country, and welcomed on country. The court is now looking to formalize that process in court rules.
21.56 This judgement was a historic and memorable day. Judge thanked the communities for welcoming the court onto their country and for everything she had learned through that experience.
22.50 What are the main challenges? How are vested interests fighting back?
Narrative is the biggest challenge: industry has well crafted narratives that are constantly brought up in mainstream media that say that coal is part of the transition.
Lawyers can address parts of those claims, but they need partners across the spectrum of civil society to achieve the needed transformation.
28.00 Regulators in Australia are taking a keen interest in the wake of the net zero challenge to Santos to investigate what other misleading claims they should explore.
29.15 New trend to watch: corporate accountability for loss and damage. As we start to see impacts of climate change being felt in Australia and the Pacific there will be more claimants bringing cases against carbon majors.
32.30 Elaine observes that the tide has turned in the last 12-24 months, in part because of the intense impacts of climate change that Australia has experienced in recent years plus the strength of attribution science. Its been slow, but sheâs surprised by the number of big wins in the past 12 months.
34.33 To challenge the industry narrative will take more than legal cases, and the Australian media needs to do more.
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Today we are excited to welcome back Sony Kapoor to the podcast, and weâre talking about the Bridgetown Initiative, a new plan - an exciting new plan - to overhaul the international financial system to unlock huge flows of finance to the global South for the energy transition.
Now disagreement between the North and the South on how to finance the latterâs exit from fossil fuels provides a useful lens on a wider problem about the geo-economics of todayâs world of multiple, intersecting crises.
Sony outlines the nuts and bolts of this new plan - championed by the Prime Minister of Barbados, Mia Mottley, to âunlock the trillionsâ for the global South. But, more importantly, he explains why this approach is far from sufficient.
He questions whether headline-grabbing news that focuses on big numbers instead of the quality of the finance, is the answer.
And raises the issue of which economic model the new engines of global growth - India and Indonesia - can follow in a world where we no longer have the carbon
budget to replicate Chinaâs carbon-intensive trajectory.
Now Sony has a plan for a new âgrand bargainâ between the North and the South for a new development model led by services and virtual delivery of services that respects global environmental boundaries. This is arguably one of the most important policy conversation of our times, so stay tuned.
What we talked about:
0:57 Stocktake after COP27
3:47 The loss and damage fund is for now an empty shell
5:31 Why the Bretton Woods system is well overdue for reform
8:01 Note that World Bank/IMF played big role in opening up of China in 1980s and liberalization of Indiaâs economy in 1990s
10:03 But today these bodies are not tackling the urgent debate about which economic model the new engines of global growth such as India should follow, as replicating Chinaâs carbon-intensive model is not an option
11:00 Climate change still doesnât feature in the IMF core function of macroeconomic surveillance. World Bank calls itself the worldâs bigggest climate finance lender, but this is only because it is the worldâs biggest lender.
12.19 Enter the Bridgetown Initiative: whatâs good about it
14.15 Why the ambition of Bridgetown falls short
16:43 Bridgetown - short term aspect seeks to reduce the outflow of money by extending the suspension of debt repayments agreed during peak of COVID crisis.
22.55 Medium-term - how Bridgetown proposes to allow lending up up to a trillion dollars of cheap money to developing countries
29.37 If climate risk is properly assessed and taken into account by markets and credit rating agencies, the poorest countries will see their already sub-par credit ratings go down several notches because they face many physical risks from extreme weather.
31.04 Why the quality of finance matters more than the quantity. Too many discussions about climate finance focus coming up with the largest headline number.
32.55 Sonyâs Grand Bargain, explained.
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The summer of 2022 may go down in history as the moment the world woke up to the global water crisis. So Iâm thrilled to introduce todayâs conversation with Nigel Crawhall, who heads up the local and indigenous knowledge division at UNESCO.
What I wanted to learn about is a recent upsurge in demand for indigenous perspectives and solutions in the water space. Nigel recently attended an important UN meeting on water in Tajikistan where he facilitated a first ever forum for indigenous people to have a voice in this political process to reshape how we think about and and act on water in an era of crisis.
Nigel explains the nuts and bolts of how to bring indigenous perspectives into fora previously dominated by Western knowledge. We also talk about the new geopolitics of water - why high altitude actors, for example, are now influential players, the role of decolonization in closed-door meetings and everything you need to know about the latest IPBES assessments on wild species and values of nature.
Nigel has a fantastic ability to convey vast amounts of knowledge through great storytelling. So if youâve found this topic challenging in the past, our conversation will definitely open new doors.
What we talked about:
2.34 The paradigm shift on indigenous knowledge dates back to the 2007 UN Declaration on rights of indigenous peoples. Over time, this converged with global challenges around sustainability - the idea that we need everyone at the table, that exclusion is part of the problem so participation is part of the solution
4.13 The new normal is bringing in multiple streams of evidence including indigenous knowledge into scientufuc assessments and decision making.
6.38 For too long we have been focused on western models & urban living & missed out on the majority of human understanding & knowledge about the world.
7.38 Zoom into the politics of water: why did the UN wait nearly half a century to hold a big international conference in water next March in NY?
8.41 Why is it difficult for indigenous people to be involved in water policy ?
9.28 What is the UN water action decade ? UN Decades are major areas of international policy concern -they are a global agenda setting tool. Alongside water currently there are Decades on Ocean Science & Ecosystems Restoration
10.07 one distinctive feature of the Water Action Decade has been the scant public participation - mostly a technical process. Until the Dushanbe conference opened the door.
13.00 From the Arctic to the Kalahari to the Mekong, traditional knowledge holders bring a wealth of insight on water governance. Hearing their stories helps build a bridge between the rights based and the knowledge based approach.
17.05 Why is water so political?
One reason is that the state is the main arbiter of the management of water, yet thé living experience of water happens at the ground level.
18.50 high altitude countries with glacial systems have emerged as influential actors in mulltilateral negotiations on water.
20.21 Why the Dushanbe declaration is an extraordinary document, a mini Paris agreement
22.17 what to know about the latest IPBES assessments approved in Bonn?
The values assessment gets to the heart of « what matters ». While many want to quantify the value of nature, others say if you put a price on it it means you intend to extract it & turn it into cash value. What the assessment does is look at what is the value of nature from different perspectives.
26.05 Should we talk about decolonization as a context for understanding north/south & east/west stressors in multilateral negotiations? The developing world sees itself as having collective interest about global justice & equity.
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This is a special edition of the podcast, the Big IPCC edit.
IPCC reports are notoriously hard to read - they are long and very technical. This means that few people actually read them.
But they matter to all of us - the insights from these reports affect the way we vote, invest, consume and just generally how we live our lives.
To make this bumper episode, I talked to three different authors from three chapters in the latest Working Group 3 report on mitigation solutions.
* Demand-side solutions, a fast growing area of knowledge, the new, good news chapter of the entire report
* Investment and finance - volume of literature on this tripled between previous 2014 assessment and this one
* Long-term emissions pathways - the heart of net zero
In the second segment, I talk to Joyashree Roy, Coordinating Lead Author for the new chapter on demand, services and social aspects of mitigation. This is a big deal, as previous reports focused mostly on supply-side solutions like renewable energies. But this report shows with high confidence that demand-side strategies can reduce 40-70% of emissions across all sectors.
But first, I talk to Christa Clapp and Glen Peters from the CICERO Centre for International Climate Research in Norway.
Our conversation is an important primer for anyone who wants to get their head around net zero.
Among the highlights: why the âthree more years to reduce emissionsâ thing is wrong. Why peak emissions are an important signal for the oil and gas sector, and why does the report have an entire chapter on finance and investment, yet the IPCC doesnât target financial decision makers with its report?
We also talk about #climatetwitter - how is it changing and what does that mean for the IPCC and its reports?
What we talked about:
Part One: Christa Clapp and Glen Peters
2.35 The finance chapter is 3 times bigger than in the previous assessment. A lot is happening, but we still donât know the impact of that activity
6.31 Why âthree more years to reduce the emissions curveâ is an error, one that sends the wrong signal about having more time
10.02 What is âpeak emissionsâ and why does it matter? In fact, what matters most is the reduction after the peak. (Glen)
11:59 The language around peak emissions matters to the oil and gas sector because it affects decisions around when to reduce production. Most oil and gas majors in their scenarios have emissions peaking between 2030 and 2040.
15.44 Emissions were back at 2019 levels in 2021. So weâre essentially at a new peak emisssions.
18.20 War in Ukraine is driving new interest in nuclear, and weâre starting to see nuclear energy deals being labelled as green.
22.08 Everyone agrees climate specialists from different areas such as finance and carbon cycle specialists should communicate and collaborate more, but there are many barriers.
27.08 Glen says that an Integrated Assessment Model is like a jack of all trades but a master of none.
28.22 The finance sector is a whole new consumer group for climate scenarios, and sometimes this means they use the scenarios in a way they werenât intended. We should be clearer about what the models are doing and not doing, and provide extra information.
29.21 The IPCC doesnât target financial decision makers as an audience with their reports.
30.18 One thing the scientific literature shows is that all the activity in the finance sector is focused on financial regulation around climate risk transparency, which builds capacity within institutions but does not, for the moment, drive emissions reductions.
34.33. Glen talks about climate twitter and how itâs changed in recent years.
Part Two: Joyashree Roy
42:02 Literature on demand solutions has proliferated since the Fifth Assessment, especially from the social
sciences.
44.38 Lifestyle and behaviour changes can reduce energy demand and our carbon footprint without reducing our wellbeing
49:07 Demand-side strategies can reduce 40-70% of emissions across all sectors.
53:53 A big focus of the literature is human desire for health and wellbeing over accumulation of material goods. In order to drive more sustainable consumption patterns, we need social movements, role models to support social acceptability of these new patterns of consumption.
57:06 Policies can change behaviour, for example putting a tax on status consumption items.
1:05 We need to set wellbeing as our goal and not income and material accumulation.
Thanks for listening!
âââ If you enjoyed this ad-free podcast and feel that youâve learned something, you can say thank you by buying me a coffee.
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Ian Morse, publisher of âGreen Rocksâ newsletter; Thea Riofrancos, Assistant Professor Political Science, Providence College
Lithium mining is in the spotlight right now - prices have gone insane, as Elon Musk tweeted only just last week, saying that Tesla may get into the mining business itself as a result.
Lithium, along with cobalt and nickel, are critical elements of electric vehicle batteries and weâre hearing everywhere these days that there isnât enough of this stuff to go around.
I wanted to know if this is actually, geologically, true? And is this the dirty secret of the clean energy revolution?
To find out, I talked to Thea Riofrancos. She is Assistant Professor of Political Science at Providence College, and Ian Morse. He is science writer and publisher of the âGreen Rocksâ newsletter
What I found out was that this is a really big conversation that touches everything from global supply chains to climate action to human rights to geopolitics to commodity markets.
Some of the big questions we tackled were: Are we in locked a global struggle for scarce mineral resources that are critical for the energy transition?
Does this mean we have to mine like crazy to get them?
And is there such a thing as clean and responsible mining?
Spoiler alert - nothing may be actually quite what it seems on the outside.
Oh, and, by the way, Elon Musk says that Tesla have some cool ideas for sustainable lithium extraction and refinement. But, as Ian explains at the end of our interview, Teslaâs batteries are notorious for being impossible to recycle, thereby driving even more demand to mine for lithium.
So, buckle up for a fascinating and thought provoking discussion.
We talked about:
01:25 âCritical mineralsâ is a term with military origins, Thea cautions against replicating that idea - that national security depends on the control or dominance of the supply chains that these minerals feed.
5.54 Calling them âclimateâ or âdecarbonisationâ metals allows mining companies to re-brand extractive activities as sustainable and responsible.
8.57 Why are prices so high right now? Thea & Ian talk about market speculation and the financialization of commodity prices, the role of commodity traders.
14.27 Mines on average take a decade to build and operationalize - this creates a lag between demand and supply, and drives markets shortages and price rises.
19.27 Relying exclusively on mining to drive the energy transition may be one of the slowest ways to do climate action, because we know weâll only have enough materials in 15 years.
22.42 The global map of lithium extraction is changing. Right now there are four main producers, in 10 years from now that will probably double. Rivalries will change, and nation states will shift their economic policies around these stakes.
24.03 Market shortages of critical minerals is driving two big new trends: On-shoring of extractive activities and vertical integration of supply chains.
Car companies like Tesla and VW are contracting directly with raw material companies, either via direct investment or joint ventures. This further drives market shortages as it takes years of supply off the market.
24.13 Ian talks about his experience covering nickel mining in Sulawesi, Indonesia, âwhere the ground was dug up, shipped elsewhere. And people there were left with red seas, polluted air, no rainforest.â
32.45 The âglobal raceâ media narrative crowds out discussion of solutions to the climate emergency, and it allows mining companies to brand themselves as climate heroes.
35.00 The worst way to organize an energy transition is to change only the fuel source. The fastest way to decarbonize the transport sector is to scale up public transportation.
40.50 What can we learn from the recent example of Chile, a mineral powerhouse with a new left-wing government breaking new ground on policy approaches to the extractive sector.
57.49 Our EV batteries were not designed to be recycled - they are hard to take apart, and its hard to extract the minerals to be re-used. So recycling could significantly cut down on how much we need to mine. Why isnât this happening at scale now? Because recycling is competing against heavily subsidized materials - which is newly mined metals.
52.40 Chinaâs BYD recently developed a battery thatâs relatively easy to pull apart with your hands, but the Tesla battery is notoriously difficult to disassemble and recycle.
âââ If you enjoyed this ad-free podcast and feel that youâve learned something, you can say thank you by buying me a coffee.
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Edwin Castellanos & Joern Birkmann; IPCC AR6 WG2 Coordinating Lead Authors
The latest IPCC report on adaptation is out, and it came out 4 days after Russia invaded Ukraine.
If you're asking yourself: what did I miss?
The UN Secretary General described it as "an atlas of human suffering". He said, I quote: âNearly half of humanity is in the danger zone right nowâ.
For the first time, scientists have given us a number, 3.3 billion people, who are highly vulnerable to the impacts of climate change.
Second, we now know where many of them are located. And while there are groups in all countries vulnerable to climate change, the IPCC report shows that in some places - called âglobal hotspotsâ - the level of human vulnerability is a lot higher.
For example, in the most vulnerable regions, deaths due to floods, storms and droughts are 15 times higher per event compared to countries like Germany and the United States.
Thereâs a map (see below) in the report which shows where many of the most vulnerable are, and it includes parts of East Africa, South Asia, Central America, and the small island states.
If youâre nodding, and saying to yourself âhmm that makes senseâ. In fact, this map was highly contested by delegates from both rich and poor countries at the approval session for the Summary for Policy Makers. Those objections led to it being removed from the summary - the most widely read part of the 3,500-page report.
To find out why, and to learn about the highlights of this important report, stay tuned for my interview with IPCC authors Joern Birkmann from Germany and Edwin Castellanos from Guatemala. Itâs not all gloom and doom, there are even a few reasons to be hopeful.
We talked about:
* 5.08 Billions more people will face dengue risk by the end of the century, and among them many people in non-tropical regions such as Europe
* 7.54 Reflections on the final approval session
* 11.42 Why language matters so very much in the negotiations between governments and scientists over the Summary for PolicyMakers
* 12.23 Imbalance between developing and developed countries in terms of who speaks up in the approval session, and size of delegations
* 13.53 What happened with the figure on vulnerability (see below) at the final approval session. Why was it contested?
* 16.01 The art of defining âpolicy-prescriptiveâ
* 17.14 Quantifying the 3.3 billion number: a first for the IPCC and an important message of the report
* 19.17 What else is new? Approaches to vulnerability have changed from the Fifth to the Sixth Assessment
* 19:43 First ever reference to âcolonialismâ as a driver of vulnerability, few governments contested this
* 21.55 Global hotspots of human vulnerability
* 24.41 The idea of climate-resilient development is something new & important in this report
* 25.55 Regional approaches were also a highlight
* 28.21 Whatâs the good news? The Sixth Assessment has a lot more literature on adaptation; the challenge is how to assess the effectiveness of whatâs happening, especially in developing countries
* 34.19 How are we doing on adapting to extreme heat events in Europe?
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Alice Bell, author of âOur Biggest Experimentâ; Alina Siegfried, author of âA Future Untoldâ
So, we made it to the end of 2021. That was definitely an achievement.
But what will our 2022 story be?
Today Iâm talking with two brilliant authors about the new stories that are bubbling up on climate change in 2022.
And how each of us has a choice to invest in a certain storyline, one that designs a shared future that is all about love, about care, about human agency.
Alice Bellâs âOur Biggest Experimentâ, tells the incredible story of the history of climate change, and traces the journey of where we came from, while Alina Siegfriedâs âA Future Untoldâ, digs into some of the shifting myths that could shape the way the 2020s unfold.
We talked about COP26, and which stories are likely to bubble up in its aftermath, things like âpolluter eliteâ. Spoiler alert here - its not just the super rich, but its people like you and me.
On whether the 2020 window for disruptive change might be closing.
We find out that the term âtree huggerâ comes from 18th century India and some courageous women who gave their lives to save their trees.
But above all, the message that shines through loud and clear is that change is coming, and we all have a choice to choose the story that we tell ourselves about how that change unfolds.
So wherever you are, however hard it was to get there in these final days of an epic year, letâs take a moment to make that choice and make it a beautiful one.
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If youâre familiar with the term degrowth, youâll probably have noticed that itâs popping up more and more frequently.
At last monthâs battle in France for the Green Party leadership in next yearâs presidential race, degrowth was referenced but never tackled in depth or in detail. Yannick Jadot, a green growth candidate, won by a narrow margin over his âeco-feministâ rival, Sandrine Rousseau.
Degrowth made an appearance recently on the front page of the international edition of the New York Times. It was an opinion piece called âDegrowth as a saviour to the planetâ.
Ezra Klein talked about it on his podcast in August. He said âI understand its appeal, but I donât understand its politics.â
You can study degrowth. Thereâs a masters programme at a university in Barcelona in Political Ecology, Degrowth and Environmental Justice.
So whatâs driving this interest in degrowth, and how is degrowth different from green growth?
Green growth is the idea that we can have economic growth and sustainable development at the same time. Itâs an idea thatâs been around for over a decade. And itâs the underlying assumption of almost all current policy discussions about net zero.
Whatâs changed is that that assumption is starting to come under scrutiny as being not fit for purpose for the scale of our crisis.
So is degrowth the alternative to green growth? Or are they two sides of the same coin.
To find out, I talked to two experts in the field - Julia Steinberger, from the University of Lausanne and Malcolm Fairbrother of Umea University in Sweden.
The first thing I learned is that degrowth is not what it seems. Itâs not about less economic growth, nor is it about voluntary simplicity.
For anyone who has ever stumbled trying to follow this debate, or who wants to understand whatâs at stake and how our actions can count, then this episode is for you.
We talked about:
* 2.09 Green growth is not just economic growth with a bit of sustainability tacked on as an afterthought.
* 3.16 Degrowth: the main goal is to decouple human prosperity and wellbeing from environmental degradation and resource use emissions.
* 5.27 Difference between GDP as a goal and saying that GDP growth can be reconciled with sustainability
* 7:56 Why is degrowth getting more attention?
* 15:30 Julia points out one reason why green growth isnât working: when we communicate on the basis that we donât need to change our economic systems, we just need to throw extra money at R & D, what policy makers hear is âYou donât have to do anything.â
* 16:44 Scientific literature on degrowth is growing; the IPCCâs WG3 report in 2022 includes more radical alternatives in terms of what the economy could be doing & more literature critical of existing models which equate prosperity with growth.
* 18:06 Malcolm explains a key point of divergence between green growth and degrowth: weâve have success in solving environmental problems with policy shifts to induce shifts in production and consumption in the past - if we use our existing tools to their full capacity, we can save the planet. The real problem is politicians not doing their jobs because of corporate lobbying.
* 27.00 Degrowth also emphasizes distribution and sufficiency: we need to make sure that everyone has access to basic standards for a good life. This goes against the political winds of our time related to neoliberalism which says whoever can afford whatever it is, they get to do that thing.
* 34.38 Malcolm warns of the risk that if we donât communicate which positive changes we can achieve through policies, people will get cynical and think than nothing good can come of politics or policymaking
* 36.23 Julia and Malcolm agree that itâs all about political action. It doesnât matter who your politician is, you need to make their life a living hell until they do the right thing.
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As more and more money flows into ESG, itâs no surprise that we are drowning in a deluge of information and reports. Plenty of it is greenwash. But how can we know which parts to ignore, and which parts to pay attention to?
Is the media the best place to go for trusted information?
Do the journalists covering this space act as watchdogs, or are they simply âconveyor beltsâ of industry information.
To find out I talked to Nadine Strauss, who's a researcher specialized in green finance communication, and Peter McKillop, CEO of Climate & Capital Media, and a former journalist himself.
Nadineâs research raises many tricky questions. For example, journalists say they face a moral dilemma. They are concerned about climate change, and want to make a difference. Yet they are under pressure to provide a platform for all sorts of industry claims. A lot of information is locked behind paywalls. And ESG information has become a business in its own right through paid events and online webinars.
There are no easy answers. It almost seems like no-one has a stake in pushing for change here, yet most people will agree that change is needed. I hope you enjoy the conversation.
We talked about:
* 3.01 How journalists perceive their role in covering green finance, more chronicler & informant than watchdog
* 4.18 Moral dilemma facing journalists inundated with industry greenwash
* 7.05 Whose job is it to be the greenwash watchdog; journalists face multiple challenges
* 9.19 Walled garden syndrome: green finance is an elitist, mostly paywalled space.
* 19.15 How Tariq Fancy, formerly of Black Rock, broke out to wider audiences with messages on why ESG investing doesnât work
* 26.19 Much reporting on green finance is driven by op-eds from big investment banks & their theory of change is weak, sustainable finance is an add-on to a business as usual view of the world
* 33.05 Nadine shares her go-to information resources
* 34.17 Peter shares his go-to information resources
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Since the start of 2021 weâve seen a race - like an arms race - among companies to announce net zero emissions targets.
Great, you might say. But do the leaders of those companies know how to achieve them?
Think about it. The market for training and education is going to blow up in coming years.
Whoâs the reference in this field? Whoâs been doing this for a long time, and basing it on the best science?
I turned to Lisen Schultz who runs an executive education programme at the Stockholm Resilience Centre which is, without a doubt, a gold standard in this hot space.
This is a CEO and Board-only programme. It draws on the legacy of the Centreâs pioneering work on the planetary boundaries and Lisenâs own links with Swedish business through the Pontus Schultz Foundation which she founded after her husband died tragically in a bicycle accident at the age of 40.
Teaching sustainability is not easy. It is just such a vast canvas of inter-connections and almost, what Iâd call a kind of mental pain to let go of the perform and measure mindset we were given at school.
Iâd like to really insist on why I think Lisenâs approach is unique.
It is extremely rare for such a programme to be housed in academia but explicitly steering away from top down science-splaining.
Lisen has a âmeet you where you areâ approach that is user-centric and designed to empower CEOs to lead change.
Sheâs publishing a new book, co-authored with climate journalist Erica Treijs, called: âThe Course: 10 Lessons in Sustainable Businessâ. Itâs in Swedish, so if youâre a publisher and see a market for this in English, which I certainly do, then you should get in touch with Lisen right away!
Enjoy the conversation.
We talked about:
* 2:24 Bringing signals from ecosystems into decision-making
* 3:15 Personal loss inspires a mission to connect business and sustainability
* 8:02 Why sustainability is a team sport.
* 9:06 Features of the learning journey
* 12:27 How to design a programme that fits the reality of the CEO and challenges them
* 13:28 Understanding the motivation for change: itâs always a mix of personal and professional
* 22:16 Unlocking our intuitive knowledge about the importance of life and our connection to the web of life
* 23:23 The importance for early movers to learn how to shift the bigger context to create a space for new business values to take root.
* 24:28 Thoughts on the theory of change. Bringing your owners and board along for the ride. Lobbying for policy shifts to make sustainability the obvious choice.
* 29:50 New book co-authored with climate journalist Erica Treijs coming this year in Swedish: âThe Course: 10 Lessons for Sustainable Businessâ.
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Joining me to make sense of the recent dramatic exit of Emmanuel Faber from Danone following a hedge fund attack, are two leading lights of the sustainable business space.
Louise Kjellerup Roper is CEO of UK-based Volans, which advises companies that are transitioning to sustainability. Mark Desjardine is a researcher at Penn State University specialized in hedge fund activism.
So, was Danone the story of the limits to sustainability?
Or is this the opening shot in a new chapter for sustainable business?
One that moves beyond the myth of the Sustainability Superhero CEO who acts very much alone to drive the transition, to sell it to the media, and to defend that vision against enemy attacks, both from within and from without.
I love this interview because Louise and Mark basically interview eachother, putting together the latest research findings on hedge fund activism, and the signals from companies that are breaking new ground in sustainable business.
What emerges is an analysis of the Danone case that goes well beyond the Good vs Evil narrative, and provides fresh insight into the risks and opportunities of this new phase of the sustainability revolution.
Timecode:
5:40 Firms that do more CSR are more likely to be attacked by activist hedge funds
8:30 Only long-term investors can bring the triple bottom line together
14:50 New trend of âESG-styleâ activist hedge funds like Engine No. 1 - greenwash?
19:36 Compare Polmanâs and Faberâs responses to hedge fund attacks
21.30 Female CEOs make companies more vulnerable to hedge fund attack. Why?
24:50 Has the sun set on the era of the alpha male Sustainability CEO Hero?
32:56 A new generation of âsustainability-nativeâ leaders will change the game
38:45 Should we regulate hedge funds out of business?
41:26 Investor relations is a key battleground for sustainability and long-term thinking
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Welcome to episode #16 of New Climate Capitalism, and today we're talking about financial feminism.
My guest is Jessica Robinson, who's just published a new book called "Financial Feminism: A Woman's Guide To Investing for a Sustainable Future".
Reading her book was a both a wake-up call, and a call to action for me personally. Everyone knows about the gender pay gap, and sadly, if you are a woman, you have experienced it. But the hurdles don't end there. There's also a savings gap, a pension gap, even a debt gap.
And that woman who spoke so brilliantly in the meeting? She may not be as self-confident about her finances. In fact, many women report feeling spoken down to when talking with a financial advisor, the majority of whom are men.âŻ
However The good news is that women are holding more and more wealth globally, and a lot of this wealth is being channelled into sustainable investing.
Jessica's book really inspired me to take a long hard look at my own approach to saving and investing, and I found our conversation tremendously empowering. I do hope you enjoy it.
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Climate litigation is on the rise all over the world, and Australia is the global hot-spot for climate lawsuits.
One of the most interesting cases going on there right now is a world-first involving a 23-year old student from Victoria who is suing the Australian government for failing to disclose climate change risk to sovereign bond investors.
To understand the case, and its implications, I talked to David Barnden, who is the founder of Equity Generation Lawyers, and he represents Katta OâDonnell in the OâDonnell v Commonwealth which was brought last year.
Let's pause for a moment to reflect on how this case is unusual and potentially game changing. Its the first time anyone has sued a government anywhere on failing to disclose climate risk on sovereign bonds. Whatâs more, sovereign bonds are traditionally seen as very safe investments, and they are key components of all pension funds.
But guess what? In 2019, the Swedish central bank decided to dump Western Australian and Queensland bonds from their portfolio because of climate risk concerns.
I talk to David about how this unusual case came about, what the stakes are and what the rest of the world can learn from it.
Our conversation really gets to the heart of some big questions about the relationship between the law, the state and the interests of capital and the public. Cases like O'Donnell v Commonwealth are not just about a new type of climate action, they could - potentially - transform the way capitalism is encoded into the law.
Personally I find this topic very exciting, so I hope you enjoy our conversation.
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Welcome to Episode 14 of New Climate Capitalism.
Today Iâm talking with Siddarth Shtalekar, who's the founder of Sacred Capital, a Singapore-based company that's building reputational currencies on distributed ledgers.
If you're thinking âthat sounds a bit abstractâ, in essence this is an invitation to think way past business as usual to a new idea of currency and wealth.
And the timing couldn't be more perfect. The pandemic has forced us to deeply question the value of everything, and to re-assess things like the relationship between money and identity.
Sid has an unusual personal story which is something of a metaphor for the economic future he's trying to build.
Before the financial crisis of 2008 he was the head of one of South Asia's largest trading floors. He then spent four years in a Gandhian ashram exploring new paradigms for economics.
So if you're interested in how to expand the definition of wealth to include capital that's social, cultural and intellectual, I guarantee that you will enjoy this conversation.
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Welcome to episode 13 of New Climate Capitalism.
Our topic today is modern slavery in the supply chain.
This is one of those big, disturbing issues that affects all of us. Each time we buy a bar of chocolate, an iPhone, an item of clothing, it is likely that someone, somewhere, a fellow human being, will have been subjected, often against their will, to abject working conditions to produce that item.
How should we define modern slavery? What are its root causes? And what can companies and consumers do to fight it?
To find out, I spoke to Michael Rogerson, who is a researcher at the University of Bath specialised in modern slavery. Coming from an accounting background, he has a unique and compelling perspective on this topic which is usually the preserve of activist NGOs.
If you're working on the "S" of ESG, you should be following this very closely. And if you consider yourself an ethical consumer, or if you're worried and would like to do better, do not miss this episode.
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Welcome to Episode 12 of New Climate Capitalism.
Philanthropic foundations are not generally known for being players in green finance but that started to change a few years ago, and right now more and more players are diving into the space.
To find out whatâs going on, I talked to Marilyn Waite, who leads the climate and sustainable finance work at the Hewlett Foundation. Right now thatâs a portfolio worth 75 million US dollars over five years.
Foundations are special because their non-accountability allows them to be very nimble and responsive, and this gives them tremendous leverage to come in with an agenda for change that can, over time, exert influence on the dominant agenda and narrative.
So don't miss this episode to find out where foundations are putting their money and why right now.
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Welcome to Season 2 of New Climate Capitalism!
Todayâs episode looks at the Just Transition and the climate elite.
I talked to Edouard Morena, a Paris-based researcher who studies the social and justice dimensions of climate action, as well as climate philanthropy.
You may have heard the term Just Transition which has become very popular ever since the 2018 Yellow Vest movement in France. Edouard warns that this term has become distanced from its original meaning, and is increasingly being used in a tokenistic way.
But beyond that is much a bigger story about the widening gap between people and climate policy. About the missed opportunities from proliferating citizens assemblies. About a proactive far-right that is muscling in with new environmental narratives to get votes.
So whatâs going on, and what should we be worried about?
Donât miss this fascinating conversation, which I guarantee will give you some new insights into the importance of language and narrative in the international climate policy space.
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For the last episode of Season One, U.S. climate scientist Kim Nicholas gives a brief on the latest research, and whether or not we can be hopeful about 2021. She has a new book coming out soon about climate change called âUnder the Sky We Makeâ which everyone should read.
This is a very special conversation in which Kim talks openly about something we donât often hear about in the news.
Thanks to Greta, more and more people are listening to the science. But have you wondered about the emotional impact that doing the science has on the scientists themselves?
In fact, many climate scientists suffer from feelings of frustration and helplessness that they can't stop the increase in emissions. Many are driven to take action outside the lab by joining protest marches, giving public talks, talking to the media and to politicians.
So this is a behind the scenes peek at what it feels like to be climate scientist in 2020.
Kim tells a heart-rending story about her experience this summer amid the wildfires of her beloved native California. She talks about the challenge of being successful in science when you've chosen to stop flying to conferences, and explains why it was important to her to write a book for a general audience.
Don't miss this episode, it will literally change the way you feel the next time you hear Greta say "Listen to the science".
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Today I'm talking about climate risk with Veena Ramani. Sheâs Senior Program Director of Capital Markets Systems at Ceres, a non-profit in the U.S. that advocates for sustainability in business.
This is the first in an occasional series of briefings which take a concept or a term that's widely used, that can often give rise to confusion or misunderstanding.
Climate risk sounds like an obvious term that anyone can understand, right?
But it turns out to be one those false friends - like when you learn a new language and you think you recognise a word, but it turns out the word has a different meaning.
So what is risk? What is climate risk? What is finance, and what is financial stability?
If you can answer these questions without hesitation, then this episode is definitely not for you.
But if you're unsure, then I recommend you keep listening.
Thereâs something about revisiting core terms that often gives rise to new and unexpected questions.
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When the news broke in May that Rio Tinto had blown up an ancient Aboriginal site to mine for premium iron ore, the world reacted in horror and disbelief.
Five months on, the CEO and 2 senior executives have been sacked. But what have we learned, and what are the prospects for change? The kind of change that guarantees such a tragedy will never happen again.
To find out, I talked to Brynn OâBrien, Executive Director of the Australasian Centre for Corporate Responsibility (ACCR), which coordinated an activist investor campaign against Rio Tinto. Some are calling this a landmark case, a turning point for stakeholder capitalism.
Itâs definitely a success story for investor activism. But it also exposes the cosy relationships among mining, law and politics that allowed this disaster to happen. It is a cautionary tale for everyone because the fact that it even happened beggars belief, and leaves one - as Burchell Hayes from the PKKP says âwithout words to describe the feelingâ.
Donât miss this deeply thought-provoking episode.
Thanks to ABC Radio for permission to use an extract from the June 5 interview with Burchell Hayes.
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