Episodes
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This week's Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Cosequin®, is with the Practical Horseman 2024 Trainer of the Year Leigh Berman, owner and head trainer of Two Bit Farm in Boyertown, Pennsylvania.
The Practical Horseman Trainer of the Year Program is designed to honor the unsung heroes of our sport—trainers who work tirelessly to improve the education of both their riders and horses. Entrants were nominated for the contest by individuals in the horse community. Out of all the trainers nominated, 10 finalists were selected, with one earning the title of Trainer of the Year.
About Leigh BermanLeigh started her career as an Amateur, winning many awards aboard her off-the-track-Thoroughbred Catch 22. As a professional, she spent years showing and training at top-ranked horse shows in both hunters and jumpers. She even ended up on the cover of Practical Horseman magazine in 1995 and was featured in an article about her and Catch22 who should found at the New Holland Horse Auction.
As head trainer of Two Bit Farm, Leigh focuses on helping riders of all ages and skill levels develop genuine partnerships with their horses. She’s helped her students achieve success in the Junior Hunters and the Amateur Owner divisions—but more importantly she strives to instill confidence in her riders and encourages them to be their best selves in order to communicate with their equine partners.Leigh’s talent is also apparent when she’s working with young horses or those with training challenges. She often imports unbroken horses from overseas to develop them into well-rounded show horses.
In her submission for the Practical Horseman Trainer of the Year, Leigh’s students noted her unbridled passion for helping them achieve their riding goals and enhancing the relationships they share with their horses—all while having a blast along the way.
Leigh also recognizes how much horses have to offer and pays that forward by supporting her local riding community and the Boyertown community in general. She hosts biannual derbies to provide high-level competition experiences for riders who might not be able to afford rated shows or have the time to travel to them. And she partnered with a local gym to introduce middle-school students to two of her horses to teach them about physical wellness and the beautiful partnerships we can share with these amazing animals.
In today’s podcast, we talked to Leigh about receiving the 2024 Practical Horseman Trainer of the Year title, how she sets up her students and horses for success and happiness in the saddle and why she feels it’s important to share horses with her local community.
About This Week's Sponsor, CosequinCOSEQUIN®, the #1 veterinarian-recommended joint health supplement brand, is excited to bring you, COSEQUIN® ASU Balance. This formula supports joint, immune, and digestive health. COSEQUIN® ASU Balance helps moderate the inflammatory responses that can cause immune and GI tract disturbances through the innovative inclusion of postbiotics and beta-glucans. The formula also includes the joint support COSEQUIN® is known for, with ingredients such as ASU, Hyaluronic Acid, and Boswellia serrata Extract.
With over 30 years behind the COSEQUIN® name, you can rely on COSEQUIN® products when performance matters. To learn more, speak with your veterinarian or visit Cosequin.com.
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This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Purina, is with five-star eventer Lillian Heard Wood. She spoke with us in late October following her eighth-place finish at the Maryland 5 Star with her longtime partner LCC Barnaby.
To give you a little more background on Lillian, she has 16 CCI5* completions, including top-10 finishes at the Maryland 5 Star and top-20 finishes at the Badminton, Burghley and Kentucky CCI5*s. Originally from Poolesville, Maryland, Lillian developed a passion for eventing while competing in the United States Pony Clubs. She spent 10 years as a working student for Olympian Boyd Martin and five-star competitor Jan Byyny. Also, Lillian worked in Ireland and England in multiple international yards, most notably for Carol Gee of Fernhill Sport Horse Center. She runs her training business out of Lanefield Farm in Coatesville, Pennsylvania, alongside her husband, five-star eventer Ryan Wood.
In our discussion, Lillian talks about deciding to retire the 18-year-old LCC Barnaby from the five-star level, handling disappointment in the sport and celebrating personal successes.
About This Episode’s Sponsor, PurinaConfidently address your horse’s unique weight needs and help optimize their overall wellbeing with research-proven Purina Animal Nutrition feeds—designed by passionate equine nutritionists. Partner with Purina to nourish your horse to their optimal body condition. Explore weight management resources for your horse today at purinamills.com/feed-finder.
You can also follow @purinafeedgreatness on Instagram and @PurinaHorse on Facebook.
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Missing episodes?
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Welcome to the PHOD pod, the Practical Horseman Podcast's Minisode series where we share audio clips from our subscription video site, Equestrian Plus. At Equestrian Plus, you can enjoy over 5,000 videos and get insider access to exclusive interviews and lectures, slow-motion demonstrations, and step-by-step tutorials taught by top-level pros in the hunter jumper, equitation, eventing, and dressage disciplines.
On this week's episode, dressage and event rider Chelsea Canedy leads a short, guided meditation to realign yourself before interacting with your horse. She helps get you to a place where you can find stillness and internal quiet and locate that gratitude for your horse and your time with him.
When you tune into the PHOD Pod, listen closely for a promo code for 15% off your Equestrian Plus subscription!
To sign up for Equestrian Plus, click here.
COSEQUIN®, the #1 veterinarian-recommended joint health supplement brand, is excited to bring you, COSEQUIN® ASU Balance. This formula supports joint, immune, and digestive health. COSEQUIN® ASU Balance helps moderate the inflammatory responses that can cause immune and GI tract disturbances through the innovative inclusion of postbiotics and beta-glucans. The formula also includes the joint support COSEQUIN® is known for, with ingredients such as ASU, Hyaluronic Acid, and Boswellia serrata Extract.
With over 30 years behind the COSEQUIN® name, you can rely on COSEQUIN® products when performance matters. To learn more, speak with your veterinarian or visit Cosequin.com.
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This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Purina, is with professional hunter/jumper rider and trainer TJ O’Mara. He spoke with us in mid-October during the busy indoor season.
To give you a little more background on O'Mara, he had a successful junior career, winning three equitation finals in 2016: the Excellence in Equitation Championship, the Platinum Performance/USEF Show Jumping Talent Search Finals - East, and the Pessoa/USEF Hunter Seat Medal Final. In 2018, he turned professional while getting his college degree at the University of Kentucky. Two years later in 2020, O'Mara joined Max Amaya's team at Stonehenge Stables as a professional rider and trainer, with a focus on training the equitation students. Last year, he helped coach student Carlee McCutcheon to wins in the Dover Saddlery/USEF Hunter Seat Medal Final and the ASPCA Maclay National Championship. In the competition ring, O'Mara earned his first FEI win in 2022 and competes at the five-star level.
In our discussion, O'Mara talks about the start of his professional career, important lessons he has learned thus far and his training philosophy.
About This Episode’s Sponsor, PurinaConfidently address your horse's unique weight needs and help optimize their overall wellbeing with research-proven Purina Animal Nutrition feeds—designed by passionate equine nutritionists. Partner with Purina to nourish your horse to their optimal body condition. Explore weight management resources for your horse today at purinamills.com/feed-finder.
You can also follow @purinafeedgreatness on Instagram and @PurinaHorse on Facebook.
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This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Horse Week, is with Hannah Sue Hollberg. The five-star eventer has a lot on her radar right now. Earlier this year, she took over the ride on Thoroughbred gelding Business Ben from fellow eventer Allison Springer and has spent the past nine months fostering a new partnership with him. The pair has some big dates on their competition calendar this fall—and hopefully another one in the spring of 2025.
Among her other talented horses are Capitol H I M and Harbour Pilot. Hannah Sue retired her longtime partner Harbour Pilot following his last five-star run at the 2022 MARS Maryland 5 Star at Fairhill, where the pair finished in 10th. Hannah decided to retire the then 19-year-old Irish Sport Horse gelding, after their 12-year partnership to ensure “William” ended his career healthy and happy—and to give him the opportunity to enjoy lower-impact work.
Hannah Sue and Capitol H I M—affectionately known as “Cheeto”—made their five-star debut at the 2022 Land Rover Kentucky Three-Day Event and competed in the CCI5* at last year’s Maryland Five Star, where they finished fourth and were the highest-placed U.S combination.
After serving as a working student with Karen and David O’Connor from 2008 to 2011, Hannah Sue went on to become a team gold and individual silver medalist at the 2011 Pan American Games aboard Harbour Pilot. She also represented the U.S. in a number of European events, gained plenty of five-star experience and most recently placed third at the MARS Bromont CCI4*-L with Capitol H I M last June.
In today’s podcast, we talked to Hannah Sue about what’s new on her horizons, the incredible partnerships she shares with her horses, her training philosophies—and how she finally overcame a lack of confidence through perseverance and her passion for eventing horses.
About This Podcast’s Sponsors, Horse WeekCelebrate the splendor of horses during Horse Week! Join us for the ultimate equine celebration during the Horse Week Film Festival, brought to you by Boehringer Ingelheim, October 20-26, 2024. This extraordinary event unites horse enthusiasts from around the globe in a free weeklong online film festival dedicated to the awe-inspiring world of horses. Sign up for our free newsletter to stay in the know and tune in live October 20-26 at horseweek.tv.
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This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Boehringer Ingelheim, is with health and wellness coach Ruben Mahboobi. He spoke with us last spring after the Defender Kentucky Three-Day Event.
In this episode, Rubee talks about what riders need to do to have balance in their lives and how that balance is the foundation of overall health. A healthy person, he says, who is balanced in body, mind, and spirit is a better rider and has more chance of achieving his or her goals. Though Rubee’s clients involve those at the tops of their fields, including four-time Olympian Boyd Martin, his advice can help riders of all disciplines and levels. Riders can be so focused on helping their horses be the healthiest and best they can be that many forget about themselves. But their health and well-being is a critical part of their success and overall happiness.
Rubee assists clients with maximizing their performance and achieving or surpassing their short and long-term goals. His coaching style is grounded in his training as an executive and dignitary protection specialist and integrates meditation, yoga, mindfulness training, martial arts and a spiritual perspective with conventional wellness modalities. His high-profile clients have included Olympic athletes, A-List celebrities, Grammy-award-winning musicians, corporate CEOs, medical and legal professionals and internationally known artists.
Rubee has a long list of educational certifications in yoga, massage, exercise and more, including training at the Bodhidharma Institute in Pushkar, India. In addition to private practice, Rubee served as a holistic therapist for the psychiatric department at Bellevue Hospital Center in New York City. And he worked with the city’s Department of Health and Mental Hygiene at Riker’s Island Jail, leading trauma-sensitive yoga and therapy workshops for incarcerated men and adolescents.
Finally, Rubee is an amateur dressage rider, who is also involved in music production. You can find more information about him on Instagram at @gurubee. You can also learn more about him at gurubee.org.
This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast is sponsored by Boehringer Ingelheim, empowering excellence in every horse. As the global leader in equine health, Boehringer Ingelheim is focused on sharing our passion to improve the life of every horse. We understand that no one cares for a horse alone; it takes a whole network of passionate people to provide the highest level of care. Our team goes beyond our comprehensive product portfolio to support veterinarians, equine care professionals and horse owners alike in raising equine health to an art form. To learn more about our philosophy of care, visit TheArtofHorse.com.
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This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by SmartPak, is with international show jumper Laura Chapot. She spoke with us in mid-September after the Devon Fall Classic, following a busy summer competing along the East Coast.
Laura comes from a prolific equestrian family. Her late father Frank Chapot was a six-time Olympian and longtime U.S. Jumping Team chef d’equipe. Her mother Mary Chapot is a two-time Olympian, and her sister Wendy is an active competitor as well. Gem Twist, a successful U.S. show jumping horse in the 1980s and 1990s, was bred and trained by Frank Chapot and ridden by Greg Best and Leslie Howard before being ridden by Laura later in his career.
Laura is skilled equestrian in her own right. She was on several U.S. Nations Cup teams and helped earn team bronze at the 2007 Pan American Games with Little Big Man. Over the summer, Laura won the $75,000 Richard M. Feldman Grand Prix with Chandon Blue at the Lake Placid Horse Shows in New York.
In this episode, Laura talks about what it was like growing up in her equestrian family, her competition routine and training philosophy.
This week's Practical Horseman Podcast is sponsored by SmartPak. Even the best cared for horse can colic, but you don't have to go through it alone. With ColiCare by SmartPak, your horse gets daily comprehensive hindgut support and you get up to $15,000 in colic surgery reimbursement. Give your horse the best care available and receive your own peace of mind in return. Choose ColiCare and enroll now by calling 1-800-461-8898 or visiting SmartPak.com/ColiCare.
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This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Purina, is with international show jumper Katie Dinan. She spoke with us in mid-July after she represented the U.S. Jumping Team at CHIO Aachen in Germany. Aachen served as one of Dinan's observation events as a rider named to the U.S. Jumping Team Short List for Paris 2024 Olympic Games.
Dinan has collected numerous top placings as well as represented the U.S. on several Nations Cup teams thus far in her career. She made her senior Nations Cup debut in 2013 and helped the U.S. earn a Nations Cup win at CSIO5* Dublin in 2014. Dinan has competed in five Longines FEI Jumping World Cup Finals. Last fall, she won the Longines FEI Jumping World Cup™ CSI5*-W at the Washington International Horse Show with Brego R’N B.
In this episode, Dinan talks about what she enjoys about show jumping, how she handles big competitions and shares about her string of horses.
This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast is sponsored by Purina. Purina Animal Nutrition has three research-backed ration balancers to fill nutritional gaps in your horse's diet. Enrich Plus delivers a concentrated source of protein, vitamins and minerals without unnecessary calories. Enrich Plus Senior features ActivAge Prebiotic Technology and Outlast Supplement for aging easy-keepers. Omega Match is rich in Omega-3 fatty acids and Vitamin E, great for horses without access to green grass. Find a ration balancer for your horse at purinamills.com/RationBalancers or visit your local feed store.
Also, follow Purina on Instagram at purinafeedgreatness and on Facebook at PurinaHorse.
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Welcome to the PHOD pod, the Practical Horseman podcast's Minisode series where we share audio clips from our subscription video site, Equestrian Plus. At Equestrian Plus, you can enjoy over 5,000 videos and get insider access to exclusive interviews and lectures, slow-motion demonstrations, and step-by-step tutorials taught by top-level pros in the hunter jumper, equitation, eventing, and dressage disciplines.
On this week's episode, hunter jumper trainer Kristy McCormack explains how to build a mental speedometer to control your pace on course to find better distances. She starts at a walk with "1 mph" and shows how to add and subtract pace through the trot and canter as she builds to a canter pace needed to jump a course.
When you tune into the PHOD Pod, listen closely for a promo code for 15% off your Equestrian Plus subscription!
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In this week's Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Cosequin, Sentinel and Zoetis, we spoke with Olympic show jumping team silver medalist Karl Cook. He and his Olympic mount Caracole de la Roque traveled to Paris as the alternate combination for Team USA. But after Kent Farrington withdrew his horse due to an allergy issue, the team decided to bring in Cook and Caracole.
For his part, Cook and the feisty bay mare had a stellar Olympic debut. He and Caracole were the sole U.S. combination to collect two clear rounds in team competition. This unequivocally helped the team clinch silver.
In today’s podcast, we talked to Cook about his Olympic debut at the 2024 Paris Games and his partnership with Caracole, and we discussed his comprehensive horsemanship program that prioritizes his horses’ health and well-being above all us.
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This week’s episode of the Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Purina, is with international eventer James Alliston.
In early July 2024, Alliston and Karma, his and Ric Plummer’s U.S.-bred Oldenburg mare, helped the U.S. Eventing Team earn a second-place finish at CHIO Aachen in Germany. Also, they finished as the highest-placed U.S. combination in ninth place.
To give you a little more background on Alliston, his journey with horses began as a child riding in England to now representing the U.S. on the world stage. He has tallied numerous top international placings and CCI5* completions as well as represented the U.S. on several Nations Cup teams. He made his senior Nations Cup team debut at the 2022 Boekelo CCIO4*-NC-L in the Netherlands with Nemesis. Alliston returned to Boekelo the following year with Karma, and they finished as the top-U.S. combination in 14th place. Alliston had three CCI4* wins in 2023 and has earned another CCI4* win thus far in 2024.
In our discussion, Alliston talks about what he enjoys about eventing, how he handles big competitions and his training philosophy.
This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast is sponsored by Purina. There’s more talk than ever about the importance of probiotics in equine health. But not all probiotics are created equal. New Purina Systemiq Supplement remains live & active after the pelleting process and throughout the digestive system making it all the way to the hind gut. Systemiq was designed to support normal recovery after exercise and occasional gastrointestinal stress. Whether you’re using a probiotic now or not, it’s time to use a live and active supplement from a name you trust. New Purina Systemiq probiotic. Be sure to visit PurinaMills.com to learn more.
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In today’s Practical Horseman Podcast, brought to you by Cosequin®, we’re speaking with chef d’equipe of the U.S. Olympic Eventing Team Bobby Costello.
Costello made his first Olympic team at the age of 35 for the 2000 Games in Sydney, Australia, where he took eighth place in individual performance aboard his career-making mount Chevalier. The pair also earned top three and four-star placings at Rolex Kentucky, Fair Hill International and the Burghley Horse Trials in the U.K.
In 2003, he represented the U.S. again at the Pan American Games, this time winning a team gold on his horse Dalliance. The duo went on to future successes at Fair Hill International and Rolex Kentucky, in addition to being the top American finishers at Burghley.
As a former Olympic athlete, Costello knows exactly what it feels like to ride down the centerline at an Olympic venue and has aspired to pass the wisdom he gained from that experience on to his team. Here he talks about the importance of establishing trust, respect and open communication to successfully compete as a team in eventing and also discusses his strategy going into the 2024 Paris Games.
This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast is sponsored by Cosequin®. When it comes to equine health, COSEQUIN® Joint Health Supplement didn’t just enter the arena. They built it! World-renowned riders like Phillip Dutton, Will Coleman and Julie Goodnight trust COSEQUIN® for their horses. The high-quality, scientifically researched ingredients found in COSEQUIN® products range to support joint, digestive, hoof and immune health—the areas most impacted by performance horses. Top riders give their horses the best, and that's why when performance matters, they choose COSEQUIN®. With over 30 years behind the COSEQUIN® name, you can rely on COSEQUIN® products for "When Performance Matters." To learn more, visit Cosequin.com.
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This week’s episode of the Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Zoetis, is with Olympic jumper Laura Kraut.
Kraut was a guest on the Practical Horseman Podcast back in 2020. She has remained at the top of the sport and was named to the U.S. Jumping Team Short List for the 2004 Olympic Games back in April.
For some background on Kraut, she represented the U.S. team at the 2000, 2008, and 2020 Olympic Games and was the team alternate at the 1992 and 2016 games. Kraut partnered with Cedric to earn team gold in 2008 and with Baloutinue to earn team silver in 2020. She competed on U.S. teams at three FEI World Equestrian Games, collecting team silver with Miss Independent in 2006 and team gold with Zeremonie in 2018. Kraut has been on numerous Nations Cup teams over the years, and she and Baloutinue helped the NetJets U.S. Jumping Team place third in the Longines League of Nations Ocala back in March.
In our discussion, Laura talks about her three top mounts, Baloutinue, Bisquetta and Dorado 212, sharing their personalities and training routines, as well as her thoughts on the sport in general.
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In today’s Practical Horseman podcast, brought to you by Purina, we’re speaking with 24-year-old eventing phenom Mia Farley. At her young age, Farley has already established a name for herself in the eventing sphere’s upper echelons for helping develop and produce young eventing horses.
Farley grew up in San Clemente, California, and started riding at the age of 3 under the tutelage of her mother, hunter/jumper trainer Rebecca Farley. While eventing wasn’t as prevalent in Southern California as it is in areas of the East Coast, Farley got a taste for the sport after tagging along to an event with barn friends. One of her first memorable mounts was a black-and-white pony named Oreo Cookie who she rode for her first recognized event at the age of 8.
After falling in love with sport of eventing and with her parents’ support, Farley moved to Middleburg, Virginia, in 2018 to train and work with legendary eventers David and Karen O’Connor and their O’Connor Event Team. This momentous decision helped launch the horsewoman’s eventing career to the next level.
After Farely’s success with mare BGS Firecracker, a 2010 Irish Sport Horse, at numerous upper-level events including the 2023 Cosequin Lexington CCI4*-S, a new “project” horse entered her life. Farley, however, never anticipated just how far she and Phelps, a plucky Off-the-Track Thoroughbred, would excel in eventing.
The bay gelding was originally purchased off the track by Joanie Morris and was later “sold” to David O’Connor for the grand price of $1 as a sales prospect. For one reason or another, Phelps just didn’t sell. So, instead, David put the young Thoroughbred in training with Farley.
She started Phelps at the Novice level at Hunt Club Farms in Virginia in the summer of 2018 and brought him out for his first FEI event at the CCI2*-S level at Great Meadow International in Virginia the following summer.
In 2022, Farley and Phelps finished on the podium in the CCI 4*-L at Morven Park in Virginia, which put the pair firmly on the radar as potential players to take the next step up. In October of 2023, Farley and Phelps tackled their first five-star event at the Maryland 5 Star, where they finished in fifth-place and took honors as the sole cross-country round to make it clear inside the optimum time.
Farley and Phelps' underdog story is one that resonates across disciplines and experience levels. Today we talk to the young eventer about her former racehorse taking on the most difficult challenge eventing has to offer and to learn more about how she trains young horses for intense sport of eventing.
This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast is sponsored by Purina Animal Nutrition. There’s more talk than ever about the importance of probiotics in equine health. But not all probiotics are created equal. New Purina Systemiq Supplement remains live & active after the pelleting process and throughout the digestive system making it all the way to the hind gut. Systemiq was designed to support normal recovery after exercise and occasional gastrointestinal stress. Whether you’re using a probiotic now or not, it’s time to use a live and active supplement from a name you trust. New Purina Systemiq probiotic.
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This week's episode of the Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Purina, is with top international eventer Caroline Pamukcu.
Caroline was a guest on the Practical Horseman Podcast back in 2021—episode 47 if you want to check it out—but a lot has changed since then. She got married and has experienced change and growth in other areas of her life, too. In 2022, Caroline consolidated her sales business and moved to England to train with Olympian Pippa Funnell. She returned to the states and, in 2023, she represented her home country at the Pan American Games in Quillota, Chile, where she claimed the individual gold medal aboard HSH Blake. Their efforts also helped the U.S. Eventing Team to a team silver medal. Now, Caroline is ranked 20th on the FEI Eventing World Athlete Rankings list and has her sights are set on a spot on the U.S. Eventing Team for the 2024 Paris Olympic Games.
This week’s Practical Horseman Podcast is sponsored by Purina Animal Nutrition. At Purina Animal Nutrition, we are focused on helping horses live their best lives. For wholesome nutrition that performs, try Purina Omolene horse feed. Formulated with Outlast gastric support supplement to support gastric health and proper pH, it keeps your horse performing with confidence. Put Purina's research to the test. Stop by your local Purina retailer or visit PurinaMills.com to learn more.
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This week's episode of the Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Purina, is with three-time U.S. Olympic eventer Boyd Martin.
Boyd moved from Australia to the United States in 2007 in pursuit of his international eventing dreams. Then, in 2009, he became an American citizen. Boyd has since represented the United States at three Olympic Games, three World Championships and two Pan American Games. He’s also had competitive success at every five-star across the globe, including two wins—Adelaide in 2003 and Maryland in 2021. In addition, he’s been named the United States Eventing Association’s Rider of the Year seven times.
A thanks to the sponsor of this week's podcast, Purina: Attention horse owners. Are you looking to help your horse recover with ease after a strenuous workout? Would you like to nourish your horse and their digestive system? If so, try the new Purina RepleniMash Product. It’s much more than a mash. RepleniMash promotes hydration, replenishes electrolytes and supports gastric comfort. Put Purina’s research to the test. Stop into your local Purina retailer and grab a bag of Purina RepleniMash Product.
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This week’s episode of the Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Purina, is with longtime Kentucky Three-Day Event announcer, Charlotte Skinner-Robson.
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This week’s episode of the Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by Purina, is with leading hunter rider and top trainer, Geoffrey Hesslink.
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This week’s episode of the Practical Horseman Podcast, sponsored by the Mustang Classic, is with five-star eventer and mustang trainer, Elisa Wallace.
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On this week’s episode, hunter trainer Louise Serio talks about the importance of using your leg first, as well as using the seat and leg to communicate more so than the hand. She also explains the importance of using the inside leg to outside rein to help the horse balance properly.
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