Episodes
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In this heartfelt episode, Will welcomes Dr. Jason Frishman, clinical psychologist and founder of the Journeymen Foundation, an organization dedicated to helping fathers foster connection, resilience, and growth through community and mentorship. Jason shares how his years of clinical practice led him to create Journeymen, moving beyond traditional therapy models to build spaces where fathers can share stories, support one another, and rediscover their essential role at home and in their own lives. The conversation explores why so many fathers feel isolated in today’s world, the importance of redefining masculinity and emotional connection, and how outdoor experiences and shared adventures serve as catalysts for personal transformation.
Jason also shares a personal story about a camping trip with his infant son and wife that reshaped his understanding of adventure, family, and resilience. Together, Jason and Will discuss how stepping into discomfort, embracing imperfection, and finding meaning in the mundane can foster profound emotional growth. If you're a father—or if you support fathers—this conversation offers powerful insights into building lasting connection, challenging outdated narratives of manhood, and finding healing through nature, story, and community.
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In this powerful episode Will sits down with acclaimed author and risk management expert Ty Gagne to discuss his latest book, The Lions of Winter: Survival and Sacrifice on Mount Washington. Ty takes listeners behind the scenes of the tragic 1982 search and rescue mission that claimed the life of volunteer Albert Dow—an event that forever changed New Hampshire’s backcountry rescue protocols. Through gripping storytelling and deep reflection, Ty illuminates the heroism, emotional toll, and legacy of this landmark incident, shedding light on the psychological challenges faced by rescuers and the evolution of mountain safety over the past four decades.
The conversation also explores the unique dangers of the White Mountains, the increasing number of unprepared adventurers, and the importance of humility and preparation when heading into unpredictable wilderness environments. Ty shares a poignant personal story about witnessing a breathtaking sunrise on Mount Washington just before the COVID-19 shutdown—a moment that reflects the deep connection between nature and mental wellness. As both an outdoor enthusiast and risk professional, Ty brings unparalleled insight into how outdoor tragedy can lead to meaningful change, compassion, and understanding. This episode is essential listening for anyone passionate about the outdoors, mental health, and the human stories behind survival and loss.
To purchase The Lions of Winter: Survival and Sacrifice on Mount Washington or any of Ty’s other books check out his website: https://www.fullconditionsnh.com
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Missing episodes?
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In this powerful episode Will speaks with Audrey Costa, founder of Deep Rooted Wellness and Creatives, about her powerful journey from personal hardship to purposeful healing. Audrey opens up about her struggles with addiction, parenting through adversity, and how turning to nature—and backpacking in particular—transformed her mental health. Through her vulnerability and wisdom, she shares how movement, nature, and creativity became the cornerstones of her recovery and the foundation for her work with others.
Audrey also dives into her nature-based offerings, including trauma-informed hiking experiences, Wild Resilience backpacking retreats for women, and custom healing experiences for those navigating grief or burnout. As a soon-to-be clinical mental health counselor, Audrey blends her fitness and wellness expertise with deep emotional insight to create spaces where others can find strength, self-discovery, and peace in the outdoors. Tune in for a heartfelt, honest, and empowering conversation about healing through connection—to ourselves, to others, and to nature.
Check out Audrey’s website: https://www.deeprootedwellnessandcreatives.com/
Discover upcoming men’s retreats that our podcast host, Will White is facilitating at WMAI.org.
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In this powerful and deeply personal episode, Will welcomes Jason Stout, founder of Stoutreach, to share his story of grief, healing, and the outdoors. Jason opens up about experiencing multiple profound losses as a child—including the deaths of his sister, grandmother, and father—and how those early tragedies shaped the course of his life.
Jason describes how time in nature helped him begin to heal and led him to dedicate his career to supporting others who are grieving. From guiding wilderness expeditions for teens who have lost loved ones to facilitating peer support programs for military families and veterans, Jason has developed a unique and impactful model that blends outdoor experiences with emotional healing. His work was recently recognized with the 2024 Richard Louv Prize for Innovation in Nature Connection.
Will also reflects briefly on the recent passing of his own father and the ways in which the outdoors continues to offer space for connection and reflection.
This episode explores the intersection of grief, nature, and human resilience—reminding us that while loss is universal, healing is possible when we reconnect with ourselves, each other, and the natural world.
Learn more about Jason’s work at missionstoutreach.org.
Discover upcoming men’s retreats that our podcast host, Will White is faciliating at WMAI.org.
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In this episode, Will welcomes Brandon Moffitt, Executive Director and Co-Founder of Black Mountain Academy in North Carolina. Brandon shares his journey from working in wilderness therapy to founding Black Mountain Academy, a specialized therapeutic school for neurodivergent students. He discusses the importance of integrating academic, social, and therapeutic support for adolescents with learning differences and neurodevelopmental challenges. He also highlights how outdoor experiences play a crucial role in fostering confidence, resilience, and social engagement among students.
Brandon also introduces Intrepid Young Adults, Black Mountain Academy’s new program designed to help young adults transition into independence with structured support in academics, career exploration, and life skills. He shares insights into how outdoor activities, such as hiking, fishing, and community engagement, provide essential opportunities for growth and self-discovery. Brandon also reflects on the resilience of students and staff following a devastating flood, the role of community service in their therapeutic model, and the evolving landscape of neurodivergent education. This episode is packed with wisdom for parents, educators, and professionals working in therapeutic education and outdoor mental health.
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In this engaging conversation, Will welcomes back Katie Asmus, founder of the Somatic Nature Therapy Institute, to discuss the evolution of her work integrating nature-based therapy, somatic awareness, and rites of passage. Over the past five years, her practice has expanded significantly, growing into a group practice and training center that helps therapists incorporate nature therapeutically. Katie highlights how nature supports emotional regulation, trauma healing, and overall well-being, explaining how the accessibility of nature-based therapy has grown, especially post-pandemic. She discusses the various ways her institute trains therapists and clients, from individualized nature sessions to immersive wilderness quests, emphasizing the power of integrating nature into mental health care.
Katie also reflects on the broader shifts in the field, noting an increasing demand for nature-informed therapy and a shift away from traditional office-based treatment models. She discusses her work with clients, including a powerful session where a grieving client found solace by sharing her emotions with a tree. She distinguishes between nature therapy, adventure therapy, and wilderness therapy, advocating for an approach that fosters deep relationships with the natural world rather than focusing on high-adventure activities. Looking ahead, she anticipates a continued mainstreaming of nature-based therapy, making it more accessible and sustainable for both clients and therapists alike.
To learn more about Katie and the Somatic Nature Therapy Institute- check out https://www.somaticnaturetherapy.com/
To listen to Katies Previous episode on Stories from the Field check out- our podcast page- Katie was episode 81!
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In this episode Will talks with Dr. Anita Tucker and Dr. Christine Norton about the transformation of the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Research Center into the newly established Outdoor Research Collaborative for Health, Wellbeing, and Experiential Engagement (ORC) at the University of New Hampshire. The ORC's mission is to expand research efforts beyond wilderness therapy to encompass a wider array of outdoor-based mental health interventions, including community-based programs, trauma-informed practices, and experiential engagement. Dr. Tucker and Dr. Norton explain how the ORC is creating a more inclusive research environment by incorporating diverse voices, including former clients, and prioritizing diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging (DEIB) to better reflect the evolving field of outdoor therapy.
The conversation delves into the ORC's collaborative research efforts with programs across the country, from wilderness therapy to outpatient adventure-based counseling, and highlights the growing interest in nature-based mental health interventions post-pandemic. The ORC's strategic planning process involved engaging various stakeholders to ensure the research center's direction aligns with the field's needs. The episode also explores how outdoor therapy can reduce practitioner burnout and discusses the importance of research accessibility for practitioners and clients alike. Listeners will gain insight into the field’s future, the role of community-based programming, and how the ORC continues to build trust and foster innovation through research and collaboration.
Stories from the Field is sponsored by White Mountain Adventure Institute.
Helpful links to learn more about information shared in this episode:
Outdoor Research Collaborative Website
Dr. Tucker talks about her background and the OBH Center in 2018 on Stories from the Field.
Dr. Norton talks about her background and her work at the OBH Center in 2019 on Stories from the Field.
Dr. Noton talks about research at the OBH Center about transporting young people to wilderness therapy programs in 2021.
Dr. Mike Gass talks about the OBH Center and its research and focus in 2021.
Dr. Tucker and Dr. Norton talk on the podcast Therapy +
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Want to listen to an outdoor therapy session? In this episode Will embarks on a personal experiment inspired by Reid Hoffman’s new book, Superagency. After reading about AI’s potential role in mental health, Will decided to test whether an AI chatbot could function as a real-time outdoor mental health counselor. While hiking and skiing in the backcountry, he engaged in a structured conversations with an AI therapist he named “Diane,” trained in cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) and recorded it. The session provided insights into processing emotions, adjusting to life transitions, and engaging more deeply with the natural environment. Will shares his experience, reflecting on the possibilities and limitations of AI in supporting mental well-being during outdoor activities.
The episode explores the growing demand for mental health services and how AI could help bridge the gap by providing low-cost, accessible support. AI tools, unlike human therapists, are always available and free from biases or emotional fatigue. However, Will also discusses the limitations of AI therapy, including its lack of human empathy, inability to respond to crises, and potential privacy concerns. While AI may not replace traditional therapy, it could serve as a valuable supplement for those seeking guidance in outdoor settings. The episode closes with a thought-provoking question: Would you use an AI mental health companion while hiking, skiing, or walking in the woods?
Our podcast underwriter is White Mountain Adventure Institute-(WMAI.org)
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What can ancient myths teach us about group dynamics, leadership, and mental health? In this episode Will sits down with Brant Evans (pen name Brant Elwood), co-author of Gods, Heroes, and Groups, to explore how timeless stories offer powerful insights into modern therapy and leadership. Drawing from his experiences as a wilderness therapy field guide, an executive director in recovery programs, and now a therapeutic consultant at Stucker, Smith, and Weatherly, Brant shares how archetypal narratives help us understand the unconscious forces shaping group behavior.
Will and Brant discuss the evolving landscape of wilderness therapy, the impact of social media on mental health treatment, and how lessons from mythology can guide therapists, leaders, and individuals in navigating complex interpersonal dynamics. Whether you're a clinician, a leader, or simply interested in the intersection of psychology and storytelling, this episode provides a fascinating look at how ancient wisdom remains deeply relevant today.
Brant’s book, God’s, Heroes, and Groups is available on Amazon.
Our podcast underwriter is White Mountain Adventure Institute-(WMAI.org)
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In this Will speaks with Derek Daley, the incoming president of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs (NATSAP), about the transformative implications of the Stop Institutional Child Abuse Act (SICAA) for outdoor behavioral health. This federal legislation focuses on increasing oversight, transparency, and accountability within youth treatment programs, aiming to establish national standards for ethical care and safety. Daley explains that the next two years will involve data collection and evaluation to guide future regulations, with NATSAP actively engaging policymakers to ensure the field’s expertise and perspective shape these developments. He underscores the importance of trauma-informed care and community-based alternatives while advocating to preserve wilderness therapy as a vital option for families seeking outdoor behavioral healthcare.
Daley also sheds light on the recent merger of the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Council (OBH) Council with NATSAP, a decision driven by declining OBH membership and the closure of numeorus programs. This merger represents a strategic shift, enabling OBH’s mission to thrive within NATSAP's broader organizational structure. Daley highlights OBH’s legacy as a trailblazer in accreditation standards, safety data collection, and outcome tracking, which have influenced the entire field. With SICAA emphasizing data transparency and ethical practices, this partnership positions outdoor behavioral health programs to adapt and lead amid increasing federal oversight. Daley invites listeners to engage with these changes by attending the upcoming NATSAP conference and supporting initiatives that ensure the future of outdoor-based mental health care.
Here is a link to the SICAA act: https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/s1351/BILLS-118s1351es.pdf
Stories from the Field is sponsored by White Mountain Adventure Institute (wmai.org).
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In this episode Will talks with John Tobias, founder of Red Cedar Transitions. John shares his journey from working at Boulder Outdoor Survival School to Aspen Achievement Academy and other wilderness therapy programs to establishing Red Cedar Transitions in Asheville, North Carolina. He discusses the evolution of his career, blending wilderness therapy, coaching, and psychotherapy, and highlights the flexibility and individualized approach of Red Cedar’s community-based model. John emphasizes the importance of supporting young adults as they navigate transitions, providing them with tools for independence while staying connected to the real world.
The conversation explores the changing landscape of wilderness therapy, including the decline of traditional programs and the rise of alternative models like Red Cedar that cater to modern young adults' needs. John also reflects on the power of nature-based therapy and its potential to adapt and thrive despite industry challenges. With a focus on action-oriented coaching and the integration of therapeutic principles, John shares his vision for the future, emphasizing flexibility and responsiveness to the rapidly evolving needs of young people.
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In this episode Will talks with John Karren, co-founder of Elements Programs. John reflects on how Elements has evolved over its 17-year history, moving from a strictly nomadic wilderness model to more flexible, tailored programs, including a new “Eclipse” option designed for neurodiverse adolescents. He explains the behind-the-scenes decisions that led them to integrate adventure activities, introduce heated tents, and adopt family-centric approaches, all while maintaining a commitment to the transformative power of the outdoors. John also discusses the critical role of collaboration with partners and clinical team members in shaping Elements’ ongoing adaptations, from digital media overuse interventions to specialized programming for different client profiles.
Beyond the Elements model, John and Will touch on broader challenges facing the outdoor behavioral healthcare field, particularly the recent industry contractions and heightened public scrutiny. John shares how being a small, owner-operated program with dedicated clinical professionals has enabled Elements to stay resilient. He speaks passionately about the need to eliminate outdated practices, embrace ethical oversight, and remain agile in responding to ever-changing mental health needs. This conversation offers a candid look at how one wilderness therapy program continues to innovate while retaining a deep respect for the outdoors as a powerful catalyst for growth and healing.
Other podcast episodes related to Elements mentioned in this episode:
Episode 44: Karen Scrafford, Co-founder of Elements Wilderness Therapy
Episode 17: Lynn Smith, Co-founder of Elements Wilderness Program
98: Vicenzo Narciso, Undergraduate Student at San Diego Mesa College and Former Wilderness Therapy Student
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In this special episode Will takes a deep dive into the Netflix documentary Hell Camp: Teen Nightmare, which explores the infamous Challenger Foundation—a adolescent wilderness therapy program in the late 1980s that became a cautionary tale of abuse and unethical practices. Will reflects on the emotional impact of the film, the human cost of profit-driven models, and the ripple effects of Challenger’s abusive culture on the broader field of wilderness therapy. Drawing on his extensive research and writings, he examines how the program's legacy continues to shape the evolution of ethical standards and regulatory oversight in outdoor behavioral healthcare.
The episode also features insights from undergraduate students in Will’s Wilderness Therapy class at Plymouth State University. These students share their fresh perspectives on the documentary and discuss the broader complexities of wilderness therapy, including their views on consent, ethical practices, and the role of outdoor experiences in healing. Their reflections, shaped by personal and professional experiences, underscore the importance of learning from the past to create safer and more effective programs today. Together, Will and his students offer a nuanced exploration of the challenges and potential of wilderness therapy as a tool for mental health treatment.
Will's doctoral dissertation is free on Proquest: Stories from the Elders: Chronicles and Narratives from the Early Years of Wilderness Therapy.
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In this episode Will reconnects with Mod Barefoot Maves, who last appeared on the podcast just before the pandemic in February 2020. Mod shares the remarkable evolution of the Vermont-based program formerly known as True North Wilderness, which recently changed its name to True North Evolution. She discusses the thoughtful, incremental shift away from a nomadic wilderness therapy to a fully residential model, as well as the decision to focus solely on serving young adults rather than adolescents. Mod explains how this evolution reflects the changing needs and preferences of their clients, who increasingly seek in-depth, community-oriented experiences and meaningful engagement with the world around them.
Beyond adapting their program structure, True North Evolution has also embraced new modalities that balance outdoor engagement with dynamic residential offerings. Mod highlights the importance of authenticity, collaboration, and long-term relationships with clients, including the role of coaching and the integration of technology in carefully managed ways. Throughout the conversation, she underscores the importance of listening to feedback—both from young adults and the broader field—while maintaining a strong ethical foundation. This episode offers valuable insights into how a pioneering program is reimagining the future of outdoor behavioral healthcare.
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In this episode Will reconnects with Andrew Taylor, founder of Pure Life Adventure in Costa Rica and the podcast's very first guest in 2018. Andrew shares the significant developments at Pure Life over the past six years, including how the COVID-19 pandemic forced a one-year suspension of operations due to Costa Rica closing its borders. This pause led to transformative changes such as enhanced pre-program communication with students, the introduction of academic credits, and the expansion to include adolescent groups. Andrew emphasizes the importance of informed consent and willingness among participants, noting that these shifts have strengthened the program's impact on young adults dealing with anxiety, depression, ADHD, and executive functioning challenges.
Andrew also discusses the inception of Octagon Mentoring, a coaching and mentoring initiative he started during the pandemic to continue supporting young adults. Octagon Mentoring offers services ranging from life coaching to an independent living facility in Salt Lake City, Utah. The conversation delves into his new book, "Launch: A Guide to Getting Unstuck, Navigating Life, and Thriving," which encapsulates his curriculum designed to help individuals overcome mental blocks and shift their mindsets. Andrew reflects on the evolving landscape of wilderness and adventure therapy, addressing the industry's recent contractions and expressing optimism for its future. He highlights the enduring healing power of nature and the necessity of adapting to meet the changing needs of young people and their families.
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In this episode Will engages in a profound conversation with Danny Frazer, co-founder of the former Open Sky Wilderness Therapy program and founder of Gain the Ridge Consulting. Danny shares his journey into the field of wilderness therapy, beginning as an intern at Galena Ridge and progressing to roles at Aspen Achievement Academy. He reflects on the audacious vision that led to the founding of Open Sky in 2006, highlighting how they integrated innovative practices like yoga, meditation, naturopathic medicine, and extensive family involvement—elements that were revolutionary at the time. Danny discusses his leadership roles, including serving as the chair of the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Council, where he emphasized collaboration and ethical practices to advance the field.
The conversation delves into the challenging decision to close Open Sky in early 2024 after 18 years of operation. Danny candidly examines the multifaceted reasons behind the closure, including negative media portrayals of wilderness therapy, societal shifts in parenting styles, increased competition from insurance-covered programs, and the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic. He shares his personal process of grief and reflection, which led to the creation of Gain the Ridge Consulting. Through his new venture, Danny aims to support leaders and organizations in behavioral healthcare by offering coaching and consulting services that focus on leadership development, risk management, and program evolution. He expresses optimism for the future of wilderness therapy, emphasizing the enduring power of nature in healing and personal growth.
To listen an episode about the closure of Open Sky check out episode 221-The Closure of Open Sky: Is this the "Winter" of Wilderness Therapy?
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In this episode Will reconnects with Nichol Ernst, CEO of Summit Achievement, an adolsecent residential treatment program in Maine. Nichol shares his journey from starting as a field staff member 21 years ago to leading the organization today. They delve into how Summit Achievement has evolved since its founding in 1996, discussing the core principles that have remained steadfast—the transformative power of nature, evidence-based clinical work, a strong focus on academics, and the critical involvement of family in the therapeutic process. Nichol highlights how the program has adapted to meet the changing needs of adolescents and their families, integrating technological advancements for safety, becoming a fully accredited school capable of awarding academic credits, and addressing the increasing complexity of mental health issues among youth.
The conversation also addresses the broader challenges and criticisms faced by the wilderness therapy field. Nichol discusses Summit Achievement's commitment to transparency, ethical practices, and continual improvement through state licensure, national accreditations, and the publication of outcome data demonstrating significant reductions in depression and anxiety among participants. As mental health needs continue to rise, Summit Achievement remains dedicated to providing effective, individualized treatment without compromising its foundational values. This insightful discussion offers listeners a deeper understanding of how one organization navigates the complexities of mental health care while harnessing the healing power of the outdoors.
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In the milestone 250th episode, Will reconnects with Matt Nannis, founder of PIVOTPoint, an experiential adventure program based in Western North Carolina. Since their last conversation in 2022, PIVOTPoint has evolved significantly, shifting its focus from working primarily with individuals in recovery to providing preventive and therapeutic services for youth within the local community. Matt discusses how the organization has integrated its programs into schools, offering after-school initiatives for high school and middle school students that emphasize self-awareness, self-regulation, and pro-social behaviors through outdoor activities like hiking, paddleboarding, and rock climbing.
The episode takes a profound turn as Matt shares PIVOTPoint’s essential role in the aftermath of Hurricane Helene, which devastated parts of Western North Carolina. Faced with widespread destruction, loss of utilities, and a community in crisis, Pivot Point adapted swiftly to provide immediate mental health support and relief services. Matt delves into the challenges of mobilizing resources, coordinating with other organizations, and addressing his own emotional journey during this demanding time. Despite the overwhelming circumstances, PIVOTPoint’s commitment to serving the community highlighted the importance of adaptability, resilience, and the therapeutic power of connection during times of crisis.
To donate to PIVOTpoint check out their website at https://pivotpointwnc.org/.
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In this episode Will reconnects with Bill Brown, co-founder of Confluence Behavioral Health in Vermont. Since their last conversation in 2019, Confluence has evolved significantly to meet the changing needs of young adults. Bill discusses how today's youth are internalizing their struggles more than ever, shifting from outward expressions of distress to feelings of self-hatred and isolation. Recognizing this change, Confluence adapted its wilderness therapy model by integrating nightly returns to their residential property, increasing accessibility through insurance coverage, and expanding services with Arete Transitions and a new Intensive Outpatient Program (IOP) in Burlington.
Bill emphasizes the importance of evolving treatment approaches to address the current mental health crisis among young adults. He notes that while the need for mental health services has risen, options have narrowed due to societal shifts and decreased parental willingness to engage in more challenging therapeutic interventions. Through innovative programs and a focus on integrating adventure therapy with clinical practices, Confluence aims to provide effective support tailored to the unique challenges faced by today's youth.
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In this episode Will reconnects with Derek Daley, co-founder of Legacy Outdoor Adventures and a seasoned professional with over 25 years in wilderness therapy. Derek shares how Legacy has evolved since its inception in 2012, focusing on adults aged 18 to 35. He discusses their unique approach of combining epic adventure therapy—such as canyoneering, rock climbing, and skiing in southern Utah—with strong clinical practices to create meaningful and effective treatment experiences and a hybrid model of residential treatment and outdoor adventures. Derek highlights the importance of engaging clients who choose to participate willingly, which enhances the therapeutic process and outcomes.
The conversation delves into the broader changes and challenges within the wilderness therapy field, including increased scrutiny, the impact of technology and screen time on young adults, and the closure of several programs. Derek addresses criticisms of wilderness therapy by advocating for greater transparency, accountability, and the need to demonstrate measurable outcomes. He emphasizes that despite challenges, wilderness therapy remains one of the most compassionate and effective forms of treatment. Derek also shares his passion for engaging the next generation of mental health professionals through initiatives like the upcoming 2025 HIP (Healing in Progress) Tour to college campuses.
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