Episodes
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When confronting spiritual abuse, it can feel more straightforward to focus on a specific person or leader who may have caused harm.
But it’s also important to address the systems and cultural contexts that, in their most obvious forms, promote abuse—and in their more subtle forms, allow it to happen or refuse to confront it.In this episode, Dan and Rachael dive into the painful realities of spiritual abuse and the systems that uphold it.
They explore how cultural powers—such as patriarchy, white supremacy, capitalism, and purity culture—often intertwine with Christian theology, creating harmful environments that distort our understanding of God and faith. And yet, even in the face of this, there is a call to confront our complicity in these systems with grace and humility.We hope this conversation is an invitation to wrestle with and address how we've been shaped by harmful cultures and systems and how we may have participated in them – and ultimately, to consider how we can step into a more loving, just, and merciful understanding of God and community.
===We invite you to explore the brand-new Spiritual Abuse & Healing Online Course from the Allender Center.
This 6-lesson course, complete with reflective practices and deep dive panel discussions, helps you engage your body, mind, and spirit as you unpack the harm caused by spiritual abuse.
Whether you’re just beginning to wake up to this reality or have been on a healing journey for years, this course provides a safe and welcoming space to deepen your understanding and work towards healing.
Learn more and enroll today at:
theallendercenter.org/online-courses -
Abuse of any kind involves a setup and a breach of trust – and spiritual abuse is no exception.
Whether it stems from personal relationships or institutional settings, spiritual abuse can deeply disrupt our sense of attachment and connection, leaving lasting wounds.
These wounds may have their roots in early developmental trauma, making spiritual abuse feel like an echo of past harm. It’s not just about the betrayal of spiritual abuse in the more recent past—whether during teen years, college experiences, or adulthood—but about understanding how our earliest experiences have shaped our ability to trust and heal.
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We invite you to explore the brand-new Spiritual Abuse & Healing Online Course from the Allender Center.
This 6-lesson course, complete with reflective practices and deep dive panel discussions, helps you engage your body, mind, and spirit as you unpack the harm caused by spiritual abuse.
Whether you’re just beginning to wake up to this reality or have been on a healing journey for years, this course provides a safe and welcoming space to deepen your understanding and work towards healing.
Learn more and enroll today at: theallendercenter.org/online-courses -
Missing episodes?
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In this episode of the Allender Center Podcast, Dan and Rachael open up about navigating uncertain times with faith and intentionality.
They recorded this conversation before the results of the U.S. Presidential election were announced so that, no matter the outcome, they could focus on what it means to act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly in today’s world.
As they examine both the cultural landscape and the state of their own hearts, we invite you to listen and join them in reflecting on what it looks like to live with purpose and compassion — even when the future feels unknown.
“American Gospel” (Jon Guerra, 2024), used with permission. You can hear more from Jon at jonguerramusic.com.
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This week, we’re checking in with you, dear listeners, in a candid and vulnerable episode.
Days before the U.S. Presidential Election, Dan and Rachael share the emotional weight they’re carrying, touching on the intense anxiety, anger, and grief of this turbulent season and honestly acknowledging, “We’re not doing well.”
Together, they explore practices that help them stay grounded and find hope. We hope that this conversation possibly helps you navigate similar feelings in uncertain times, or, at the very least, reminds you that you are not alone.
Editor’s Note: Dan and Rachael recalled different percentages regarding White Protestants' views on immigrants. According to the source, however, the executive summary states: “While few Americans (35%) agree that “immigrants are invading our country and replacing our cultural and ethnic background,” this view is held by 65% of Republicans, as well as most viewers of far-right news (83%) and Fox News viewers (66%). White evangelical Protestants (62%) are the only religious group among whom a majority agree that immigrants are invading our country and replacing our cultural and ethnic background.” Source: prii.org
Related Resources:
Dan and Rachael reference the following works during their conversation:
Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies, and Why by Laurence Gonzales
Oscillation Guidebook by Gabes Torres
Article: “A third of Americans agree with Trump that immigrants ‘poison the blood’ of US” published by The Guardian, October 18, 2024.
Article: “Challenges to Democracy: The 2024 Election in Focus” published by prii.org, October 11, 2024.
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In this episode, we invite you to take a deep breath and find some grounding through the power of poetry. Whether you're navigating stress or simply feeling a bit unsteady, poetry — reading it, writing it, or even the act of writing any thoughts by hand — can offer profound moments of calm and connection.
We're thrilled to be joined once again by Sue Cunningham, an Allender Center facilitator and licensed therapist. Sue wears many hats — poet, life and soul coach, spiritual director — and now, podcast host! Be sure to check out her newly launched podcast, Living Poetry, available wherever you listen to podcasts.
We hope this episode feels like a balm for your soul, offering beauty, healing, and practical ways to use poetry to find peace and grounding in this season.
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Dr. J.P. Kang joins Dan and Rachael this week to introduce The Seattle School’s brand new Certificate in Scripture and Society.
From the beginning, J.P. makes it clear—this isn't just another Bible study course. As he explains, “It's not the way that they've approached scripture in a previous church setting or perhaps faith-based educational institution. I think that what I'm trying to do is help students become better readers, both of the text and of their context, of themselves.”
This transformative, 12-month certificate program offers a fresh, psychologically-informed approach to studying the Bible. Students will explore scripture through diverse cultural, historical, and literary perspectives while being guided by esteemed scholars and seasoned practitioners. The program is designed to challenge and expand how we read and interpret both the text and our world.
If you're a faith leader or someone passionate about engaging scripture through liberative, intellectually rigorous lenses, this program is for you. Live, online courses begin January 2025, and applications are open now through December 1, 2024.
Discover more and apply at theseattleschool.edu/scripture
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On this week’s episode of The Allender Center Podcast, licensed therapist, professor, and author Chuck DeGroat returns to discuss his latest book, “Healing What’s Within: Coming Home to Yourself—and to God—When You’re Wounded, Weary, and Wandering.”
In this deeply personal and insightful conversation, Chuck explores the profound journey of healing from trauma, especially when it's caused by circumstances beyond our control.
After the release of his previous book, “When Narcissism Comes to Church,” Chuck was flooded with messages from people dealing with wounds that weren’t their fault. This prompted him to ask: How do we move from being defined by what happens to us, to understanding the transformation that happens within us? In “Healing What’s Within,” Chuck invites readers to encounter God as a compassionate witness to their trauma, offering unconditional kindness and presence in whatever state they find themselves.
If you’re seeking hope and healing on your journey, we highly recommend this book, which is available wherever books are sold. -
Just as it’s important to understand our own stories to make sense of our lives today, it’s also crucial to examine the stories within the church’s history to better understand how they are playing out in the present.
That’s why we’re excited to welcome back author, professor, and church historian The Rev. Dr. Jennifer Powell McNutt as she explores the life of a woman who played a significant role in the ministry, burial, and resurrection of Jesus: Mary Magdalene.
For too long, the church has misunderstood Mary Magdalene—her story often confused, scandalized, and undervalued. Yet, she was present at the resurrection. But why was this so important? Why was she chosen to witness and then commissioned to "go and tell," becoming the first apostle?
This powerful story reminds us that God calls the ordinary, imperfect, and unexpected to uniquely reveal the gospel.
You can preorder your copy of The Mary We Forgot: What the Apostle to the Apostles Teaches the Church Today by Jennifer Powell McNutt at bakerbookhouse.com. Use code ALLENDER50 to save 50% and get free shipping.
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Join us for a compelling two-part conversation with author, ghostwriter, and investigative journalist Nancy French. In this episode, Nancy shares some of her story - from growing up in the impoverished foothills of the Appalachian Mountains to meeting her now-husband, journalist David French, and spontaneously moving to New York and beginning her career as ghostwriter for numerous books by conservative political leaders, including five that hit the New York Times bestselling list.
Stay tuned for part two in which Nancy talks about the deeply personal investigative journalism project that changed the course of her career and her life.
*** Listener discretion is advised: This two-part discussion includes discussion of child abuse, particularly sexual abuse, suicide, and some coarse language.
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In this episode, Nancy opens up about her personal journey through childhood sexual abuse, revealing how it led her to take on an investigative journalism project that would dramatically alter both her career and her life. As the lead journalist, Nancy exposed the deep-rooted culture of enabling and covering up sexual abuse at one of the largest Christian camps in the U.S.
In the process of confronting her own past, Nancy also faced significant opposition, particularly from Christians who defended the camp. She and her husband endured personal attacks as they distanced themselves from conservative views that no longer reflected their faith.
The backlash Nancy encountered for her work has been intense. Dan comments, “Telling the truth is the root and the rule of freedom. But the price often for those who tell the truth is a form of imprisonment—a kind of being bound and sent out.”
Regardless of political views, Nancy’s story is one of pursuing truth, seeking justice, and finding healing in the most unexpected places. If you’d like to hear more from Nancy, be sure to pick up her book, “Ghosted: An American Story,” available wherever books are sold.
*** Listener discretion is advised: This two-part discussion includes discussion of child abuse, particularly sexual abuse, suicide, and some coarse language. -
In this episode, Rachael Clinton Chen and her husband Michael Chen dive into the importance of parenting with kindness—not just toward children, but toward ourselves.
Whether you're a parent, grandparent, or caregiver, it's common for past traumas to resurface when you're feeling overwhelmed or stretched thin.
Rachael and Michael openly discuss the joys and challenges they've faced in their new marriage, blending families, raising young children, and navigating a pandemic, all of which have both triggered old wounds and offered opportunities for healing. This candid conversation is an invitation to explore how grief can be a catalyst for growth and how choosing kindness over harshness creates space for deeper connection and hope for yourself and for future generations.
If you’d like to hear more on this topic, we invite you to join Rachael Clinton Chen and trauma therapist Aundi Kolber on Friday, October 4, for a live webinar, “Parenting As a Trauma Survivor.” They’ll share trauma-informed insights to help you understand why parenting can be so triggering and offer practical tips for addressing your own healing while showing up for your children in the way they need most. Sign up to be part of the conversation at: theallendercenter.org/events
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Dan opens today’s episode with this principle: “All harm came in relationship; all healing equally requires a relationship.”
If you’ve been with us for a while, you’ll understand that healing from abuse is not something we do alone. We need the presence and kindness of others to truly heal and flourish.
Yet, when we’ve been abused, it can feel so challenging to trust again, especially when trauma leaves us feeling isolated and hypervigilant.
In this episode, Dan and Rachael explore how finding supportive friends, reconnecting with family (if you are able to), and engaging in therapy can play an essential role as you move towards healing.
More importantly, they talk about how to discern who is truly safe, trustworthy, and supportive. They offer practical advice on what to look for in those who walk alongside you and how to know if they’re ready to support you.
We hope today’s conversation reveals the possibilities ahead and helps you take those first steps toward building meaningful relationships, inviting others into your healing journey.
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This week, we’re sifting through some of the "debris" that can hinder people from moving into the healing process in the wake of sexual abuse.
Dan and Rachael talk about some of the questions that can keep people feeling stuck and silent: What if I don’t remember everything? What if my healing journey affects my loved ones? Shouldn’t I just forgive and move on? Can I wait until life isn’t so busy? What if facing this feels overwhelming?
By acknowledging these barriers, you can start to see a way through. Next week, we’ll discuss what’s needed to begin the healing journey from past abuse.
Please note that this episode contains discussions of sexual abuse and childhood sexual abuse, and may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
Listener Resources:Explore more podcast episodes including: "The Cost of Engaging Stories of Sexual Abuse," "Connections Between Spiritual and Sexual Abuse," and "Bearing Witness to Stories of Sexual Abuse and Racial Trauma."
Read: Healing the Wounded Heart by Dr. Dan Allender
Sign up for the Healing the Wounded Heart Online Course from the Allender Center
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In this episode, Rachael Clinton Chen is joined by Vanessa Sadler, a trauma-informed spiritual director and contemplative creative, who brings heartfelt wisdom to the conversation about healing from personal and collective trauma and abuse. Vanessa draws on her unique training in the Enneagram, spiritual direction, and Narrative Focused Trauma Care to explore what spiritual direction truly is (and what it is not).
Vanessa highlights the transformative power of spiritual direction as a vital part of the healing journey, helping to renew our spiritual imagination and attachment to God, ourselves, and others. She also shares some contemplative practices and resources that can support this process, which are linked in the show notes below.
Listener Resources:
Subscribe to NOURISH Daily, a guided journey delivered to your inbox for 30 days, at https://centerfjp.org/nourish/ .
Vanessa’s recommended reading list includes: Starting Spiritual Direction by John Mabry, Meditations of the Heart by Howard Thurman, and The Gift of Being Yourself by David Benner. She also references authors Margaret Gunther and Kaitlin Curtice and therapist Melody Li.
Read more about the Lectio Divina, Visio Divina, and the practices of kataphatic and apophatic prayer.
Listen to Peace Talks, a podcast hosted by Vanessa Sadler from the Center for Formation, Justice, and Peace. In particular, Vanessa references this episode with Linda Royster and Dan Allender.
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Spiritual director and story coach, TJ Poon, sits down with Rachael Clinton Chen to explore the intersection of spiritual formation and White racial identity development.
We’ll begin by saying that we are approaching this conversation with a deep sense of responsibility and humility, honoring the voices of people of color who have led the way and are aware that two White people are not experts on racism. This is a complex topic and there will be missteps. Even when the conversations are difficult, we at the Allender Center know that the realities of racism and White supremacy cannot be ignored, and we are committed to holding a space to engage them.
In today’s episode, TJ and Rachael consider how White-bodied people understand their stories, how their stories and spiritual formation have been influenced by systems of Whiteness, and the challenge of feeling anchored and connected to family histories. They also acknowledge that on this journey of personal and collective healing, White people will inevitably need to confront anxiety, shame, and humiliation in their pursuit of restoration, with a commitment to what TJ calls “joyful anti-racist action.”
We hope you’ll join us in this conversation with curiosity, compassion, and courage, understanding that ongoing dialogue, learning, and formation are vital to our work with trauma on behalf of the kingdom of God.
We invite you to also listen to:
Racial Trauma and White Supremacy
Becoming an Anti-Racist, Part One
Becoming an Anti-Racist, Part Two
The Violence of Marginalization
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Parents, this episode is for you! Join Rachael Clinton Chen as she sits down with Jay and Heather Stringer to explore how to talk to your kids about sensitive topics like the body, desire, sex, puberty, and even pornography in ways that are kind and attuned to their needs.
Jay and Heather share the importance of parents first exploring their own stories around sexuality, as unresolved issues or patterns in our own upbringing can impact how we approach these conversations with our children.
In this episode, you’ll find thoughtful discussions on attachment, body image, puberty, sex, and how to navigate challenging subjects like porn and sexting. Instead of having one big, awkward conversation, Jay and Heather suggest having ongoing, age-appropriate chats that feel natural and comfortable.
The aim is to empower your kids to feel confident and informed as they learn about their bodies and desires, all within the safety of a loving and supportive environment.
If you’re looking to change the narrative for your kids around sex and want to create intentional, meaningful conversations, this episode is a great place to start.
Please note that this episode contains discussions of sex and sexual development and may not be suitable for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.
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We’re back to engage more questions from you, our listeners, about healing from spiritual abuse. In this episode, Rachael Clinton Chen, alongside Allender Center Product Manager Melissa Dowell, addresses heartfelt and challenging questions from our community.
These questions explore the complexities of bringing spiritual abuse to light, navigating healing as survivors, especially those who have faced backlash for speaking out, and managing the unique struggles of working in a church while dealing with past or present spiritual harm.
Thank you to all who submitted questions. This is part of an ongoing conversation, and we are deeply grateful for your willingness to ask questions, listen to this episode, and engage with these issues with us.
More resources on spiritual abuse:
Listen to this Spotify playlist: Over 20 Podcasts on Spiritual Abuse & Healing from the Allender Center
Check out this set of recorded webinars with Rachael Clinton Chen: Confronting Spiritual Abuse and Healing from Spiritual Abuse (with Matthias Roberts)
Join the waitlist for the Story Workshop for Spiritual Abuse & Healing, happening May 16-18, 2025.
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Join Rachael Clinton Chen for the conclusion of her three-part series, where she offers a candid and heartfelt look at her journey of holistic healing from complex PTSD and anxiety. In this final episode, Rachael explores the surprising aspects of trauma recovery, including how trauma manifests in the body and the often unpredictable nature of the healing process.
Building on her previous discussions about the mental and spiritual impacts of trauma, Rachael now turns her focus to the physical aspects of healing. She shares insights from her own experiences with various healing modalities, highlighting what has been effective for her. While this episode is not intended as medical advice, we hope the central message is clear: healing is a continuous journey, full of both challenges and progress, and sometimes requiring revisiting old wounds.
We hope this series of heart-to-heart conversations has brought you hope, made you laugh, made you think, and most of all made you feel like you’re not alone.
Thank you for taking this journey with us. We’d love to hear your thoughts on this series—please email us at [email protected] with your feedback!
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This month, we're bringing back three of our most popular conversations from last year, featuring some incredible guests. Whether you've heard them before or not, we invite you to listen, reflect, and perhaps share them with a friend.
The third and final episode in our summer replay series features Dr. Dan Allender and Becky Allender, and Dr. Steve Call and Lisa Call. This was our most-downloaded episode about marriage last year, and there’s definitely some wisdom in this conversation.
You’ll hear how our attachment styles show up within the context of marriage, how to identify and name those attachments, and how to heal in our most intimate relationships.
We’ll be back next week with an all-new episode!
Listener Resources:
To learn more about how our stories unfold in our marriages, check out the Marriage Online Course.
Listen to more episodes on the topic of marriage and relationships on this curated Spotify playlist: Podcasts on Marriage & Relationships.
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This month, we're bringing back three of our most popular conversations from last year, featuring some incredible guests. Whether you've heard them before or not, we invite you to listen, reflect, and perhaps share them with a friend.
This episode in our summer replay series is a conversation with the amazing Marcie Alvis Walker. You may know Marcie’s work from her popular Instagram feed, Black Coffee with White Friends, or her Black-Eyed Stories on Substack. Co-hosted by Rachael Clinton Chen and Linda Royster, this conversation focuses on Marcie’s memoir, “Everybody Come Alive,” where she reflects on the imprint of God, race, and gender growing up in the 70s and 80s.
Listener Resources: Pick up your copy of Everybody Come Alive: A Memoir in Essays by Marcie Alvis Walker here. Listen to more episodes on the topic of spiritual abuse and healing on this curated Spotify playlist: Podcasts on Racial Trauma & Healing. Read the full transcript of this episode as it originally aired in July 2023. - Show more
