• Innovation doesn’t always require inventing new solutions to problems; chances are that evolution has already solved the issue with a unique design. This simple notion of looking to the natural world for design inspiration is called biomimicry. Guest, Sam Tatam uses biomimicry in his creative application of behavioral science.

    Friend of the show, Sam Tatam is the author of a fantastic new book called Evolutionary Ideas: Unlocking ancient innovation to solve tomorrow’s challenges. Sam is the Global Principal and Head of Behavioural Science at Ogilvy Growth & Innovation. From New York to Nairobi, Sam has led behavior change projects across virtually every category and continent. Today, he leads a global team of talented psychologists and behavioral economists to develop interventions and shape the communications of some of the world’s most influential brands and organizations.

    Listen in to our conversation with Sam to learn about biomimicry, The Theory of Inventive Problem Solving (TRIZ) and the Goal Gradient theory. But our conversation isn't all "sciency", we also have a light hearted chat about the musical artist Sam went to Italy with, and about the differences in pubs between London and Sydney.

    If you are a regular listener to Behavioral Grooves, please consider donating to our work through Patreon. We also absolutely love reading your reviews on the podcast, which help others find our content.


    (4:59) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (13:23) What is biomimicry?

    (18:20) TRIZ (Theory of Inventive Problem Solving) and evolutionary thinking.

    (25:32) How language can be a liberator for innovation.

    (29:28) Categorizing biases into patterns.

    (34:58) What is the Goal Gradient Theory and why isn’t it applied more often?

    (39:14) Five psychological contradictions.

    (47:26) What music would Sam take to a desert island?

    (51:03) Kurt and Tim discussing Sam’s Evolutionary Ideas.

    © 2021 Behavioral Grooves


    Sam Tatam's Book: "Evolutionary Ideas: Unlocking ancient innovation to solve tomorrow’s challenges": https://amzn.to/3I6ANwX

    Episode 44, Sam Tatam: Smelling the Brand: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/sam-tatam-smelling-the-brand/

    Episode 107: Rory Sutherland: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rory-sutherland-the-opposite-of-a-good-idea-is-a-good-idea/

    Biomimicry: https://biomimicry.org/what-is-biomimicry/

    TRIZ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIZ

    Shinkansen, Japanese speed train: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen

    Generich Altshuller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrich_Altshuller

    Episode 215, Leidy Klotz: Secrets of Subtraction: Donut Holes, Lego and Bruce Springsteen: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/subtraction-with-leidy-klotz/

    Episode 289: Why Not All Nudges Work ”In The Wild” | Nina Mazar PhD & Dilip Soman PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-not-all-nudges-work-in-the-wild-nina-mazar-dilip-soman/

    Baader–Meinhof phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_illusion

    Episode 202, How Chaning Jang Works Around Not Being WEIRD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-chaning-jang-works-around-not-being-weird/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    David Gray “Sail Away”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oyBnvibWEY

    Powderfinger “My Happiness”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM_eb0vVo0k

  • A goal is a stepping stone on the way to a higher achievement, not an end point. By reframing our expectations, we can transform our mindset into an incredibly powerful psychological tool.

    Our guest on this episode is Paul Szyarto who has overcome some heartbreaking personal adversity to become an incredibly successful entrepreneur.

    Paul speaks with us in detail about the blind spots entrepreneurs experience and why many organizations fail because they don’t hire the right people with the right talent. And he reminds us that the most challenging thing to do in times of chaos is to focus on something meaningful, something beyond the current chaos of that current challenge.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    (2:50) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (5:11) Goals are not end points, they are stepping stones to a higher achievement.

    (8:47) The psychology of human capital.

    (12:16) Why most businesses fail.

    (13:31) Paul’s secret tips for entrepreneurs.

    (16:23) What is the Never Broken mindset?

    (19:51) The barriers to feeling grateful.

    (21:14) Does Paul’s playlist reflect his Never Broken mindset?

    (22:40) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim discussing mindsets.


    Never Broken Mindset: https://www.neverbrokenmindset.com/

    Episode 277, Daniel Pink, No Regrets? Really? Why Regrets Actually Bring Us Hope: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/why-regrets-bring-us-hope/

    Episode 276, Ayelet Fishbach, How To Stay Motivated So You Exceed Your Goals: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/motivation-to-exceed-your-goals/

  • Missing episodes?

    Click here to refresh the feed.

  • Women are more likely to volunteer for a non-promotable task at work, than men. But why do women volunteer themselves more? What repercussions does this have on women and on the organization? And how can workplaces fix this inequity?

    Non promotable tasks (NPTs) are the pieces of work that are good for the organization, but not so good for the individual. It’s the request from your boss to organize the holiday party, or the task of ordering sandwiches for the team lunch, or the mission of being on the review committee. And the problem, says Linda and her co-authors, is that women are doing the vast majority of these non-promotable tasks for no reason other than people expect them to.

    Linda Babcock is a longtime friend of the show, having first appeared on Behavioral Grooves Podcast back in April 2019 to talk about promoting the careers of women in the workplace. Since then, Linda has co-authored a fantastic new book advocating further for women in the workplace; “The No Club: Putting a Stop to Women's Dead-End Work”. Having formed “The No Club” with a group of other women, in an effort to regain balance in their workload, Linda and her fellow group members have written about their personal experience of learning to say NO to NPTs.

    Make no mistake, Linda’s book is not a guide for women, it is a guide for anyone who works with or knows women! Weaving practical tips into ever chapter of the book, Linda and her co-authors outline clear steps in how to avoid and fix the problem of workload inequity. And the benefits aren’t limited to women either - organizations can improve their productivity and profitability as a result of addressing these problems.

    In this episode with Linda we relish the opportunity to discuss with her the practical ways women, men and organizations can rebalance the workload of NPTs. If you are a regular listener to the show, please consider support our work through our Patreon page. If donating isn’t an option for you, don’t worry, you can’t write us a podcast review on your podcast player which will help other listeners find our show.


    (4:40) What are non promotable tasks (NPTs)?

    (7:47) Why do women do more NPTs?

    (12:50) Is there racial inequity with NPTs as well?

    (14:11) Tips for how women can say no to NPTs.

    (18:31) How can organizations fix the problem of NPTs?

    (21:27) How men can change the NPT culture at work.

    (25:55) Linda’s personal story of forming The No Club.

    (27:45) Linda’s desert island music choices.

    (31:21) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim on how to improve the culture of NPTs at your work..

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    “The No Club: Putting a Stop to Women's Dead-End Work”: https://amzn.to/3KPuUFM

    Episode 62, Linda Babcock: Helping Women Build Better Careers at Carnegie Mellon: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/linda-babcock-helping-women-build-better-careers-at-carnegie-mellon/

    Episode 67, George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Leading Human Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

    Musical Links

    The Rolling Stones “You Can’t Always Get What You Want”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3XzO_cOOVU

    Bruno Mars “24K Magic”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqyT8IEBkvY&ab_channel=BrunoMars

    The Mountain Goats “Golden Boy Peanuts”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIVNv9XZgG8&ab_channel=elijahlupe

  • The culture we live in has an invisible influence over our individual and collective behaviors. The tendency towards openness or order in a society is expressed by Michele Gelfand, as the looseness or tightness of a culture. How loose or tight a country is can be correlated to the amount of threat the nation has faced in the past, and in turn, can indicate how its people will respond to a new threat, such as a global pandemic.

    Michele Gelfand is Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Stanford Graduate School of Business and Professor of Psychology by Courtesy at Stanford University. She wrote her book “Rule Makers, Rule Breakers: Tight and Loose Cultures and the Secret Signals That Direct Our Lives” in the era before COVID. Despite that she astutely addressed how tight and loose nations would respond to the threat of a global pandemic. We were honored to have the time to chat more with Michele about this topic and many others in this episode.


    (5:49) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (6:27) How culture influences our behavior.

    (10:26) How the threat to a nation influences how tight and loose cultures are.

    (13:21) What Bert and Ernie can teach us about our tight and loose personalities.

    (16:27) What factors influence our default tendency to be tight or loose people?

    (20:21) The global threat of the pandemic and how loose and tight cultures responded.

    (28:48) What Ukraine has taught us about national identity.

    (30:47) How can societies maximize both order and openness?

    (35:02) Can organizations instigate flexible tightness?

    (39:42) Do we have blind spots on how open we are?

    (43:26) How values and attitudes influence your behaviors in different cultures.

    (47:41) What nudge worked to encourage mask wearing among Republicans and Democrats?

    (51:50) The music that influences Michele’s work.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Michele Gelfand: www.michelegelfand.com

    “Rule Makers, Rule Breakers: Tight and Loose Cultures and the Secret Signals That Direct Our Lives” book by Michele Gelfand: https://amzn.to/37O7OSC

    Mindset Quiz: How tight or loose are you? www.michelegelfand.com/tl-quiz

    Episode 266, Sandra Sucher, Trust: The Four Key Steps to Genuinely Build It: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/four-key-steps-to-build-trust/

    Episode 102, Cristina Bicchieri, Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

    Musical Links

    Oscar Peterson “C Jam Blues”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJhHn-TuDY

    Les McCann “A Bag of Gold”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50bGvY3Roj0

    Dave Brubeck “Take Five”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmDDOFXSgAs

    Bach “Brandenburg Concertos”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCPM8DEsvmc

  • Processes decrease our cognitive load and increase our productivity. On Behavioral Grooves we have talked with out guests a lot about habits and routines, but not so much about the processes behind them. In this bitesize episode we discuss the psychological benefits of using processes and how you can leverage them in your life.

    To illustrate the use of processes to achieve different outcomes, we are joined by both a practitioner and a researcher on this episode. Joseph R. Keebler is a Researcher and a Professor of Human Factors and Behavioral Neurobiology at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida. He has done some really amazing work on the use of processes and checklists for improving performance.

    Our practitioner guest is Peter M. Krask, who is an artist and coach based in New York City. Peter helps people maximize their creative and non creative output. By tapping into processes, he will share how processes from one aspect of our lives can be used to help us work through new and unfamiliar tasks in other parts of our lives.


    (3:29) How processes reduce our cognitive load.

    (7:38) You can use the same process but get a different outcome.

    (14:50) Being intentional creates better processes.

    (16:50) Flexible goals are motivational.

    (20:14) Summary of what we’ve learnt.

    © 2021 Behavioral Grooves


    Joseph R. Keebler, PhD: https://faculty.erau.edu/Joseph.Keebler

    Peter M. Krask: https://www.petermkrask.com/

    PMK Creativity Guide: https://www.pmkcreativityguide.com/

    Episode 128, Wendy Wood, PhD: Habits, Productivity and Being Gentle with Yourself: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/covid-19-crisis-wendy-wood-phd-on-habits-productivity-and-being-gentle-with-yourself/

    Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/

    Episode 171, Roy Baumeister: Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

    Episode 276, Ayelet Fishbach, PhD: How To Stay Motivated So You Exceed Your Goals: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/motivation-to-exceed-your-goals/

  • Transporting humans from A to B is about more than just speed, efficiency and duration. Comfort, Wi-Fi access, entertainment and our habits, among many other factors, influence our choice of transportation. As we become increasingly aware of the way our travel decisions affect climate change, how can behavioral science positively impact the journeys we make?

    Let our entertaining discussion with Pete Dyson and Rory Sutherland take you on a journey through their new book, “Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet?” Pete is the Principal Behavioural Scientist at the UK Department for Transport and has paired up with Rory who needs little introduction to many behavioral science enthusiasts. The vice chairman of Ogilvy UK and the co-founder of its Behavioural Science Practice, Rory is also a guest on one of the most popular ever episodes of Behavioral Grooves, Episode 107: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea.

    Our episode, along with the book, appeals to the “frustrated but optimistic traveler.” We hope listening helps you reframe your journey.


    (3:23) Welcome to Pete and Rory with speed round questions.

    (9:05) Our transport preferences are all different, so the market should reflect that.

    (13:36) The book for the frustrated but optimistic traveler.

    (15:30) What do travelers value?

    (20:27) How does human nature affect our use of transport?

    (22:37) How passenger technology has influenced train journeys.

    (24:51) The consequences of journeys on climate change.

    (26:31) Transportation challenges in the US.

    (35:56) Thinking holistically, Zoom is an example of transportation.

    (39:01) Rebranding a bus route increases ridership.

    (43:39) Listening to music while cycling or commuting?

    (49:52) Grooving Session on how Pete and Rory transported our thinking!

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    “Transport for Humans: Are We Nearly There Yet?” by Pete Dyson and Rory Sutherland: https://amzn.to/3KeWM6U

    Episode 107, Rory Sutherland: The Opposite of a Good Idea is a Good Idea: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/rory-sutherland-the-opposite-of-a-good-idea-is-a-good-idea/

    George Monbiot: https://www.monbiot.com/

    Episode 287, Nick Epley: Why Talking To Strangers Is Actually Good For Your Wellbeing: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/talking-to-strangers/

  • Read Nudge and you are inspired by how behavioral science works. But how can we translate and scale behavioral science effectively into policies and organizations? Indeed, can all academic research be applied “in the wild”?

    Our two guests on this episode, Nina Mazar PhD and Dilip Soman PhD have co-edited a book “Behavioral Science in the Wild” that addresses exactly this. If you’re a practitioner, wanting to apply behavioral science in corporate, non-profit, or governmental work, we think you should check this book out. It’s full of excellent ideas for how to apply behavioral science in the wild!

    Nina Mazar is a professor of marketing and co-director of the Susilo Institute for Ethics in the Global Economy at the Boston University Questrom School of Business. Her work focuses on topics ranging from ethics to social & environmental impact. She sits on the board of Irrational Labs and belongs to the team of scientists of the Behavior Change for Good Initiative at Wharton.

    Dilip Soman is a Canada Research Chair in Behavioural Science and Economics. His research is in the area of behavioral science and its applications to consumer wellbeing, marketing and policy. Together Nina and Dilip established the Director of the Behavioural Economics in Action Research Centre at Rotman [BEAR], on which Dilip still serves as director.

    Our discussion with Nina and Dilip explores the journey of working on their book together and why it’s vital reading for all behavioral scientists. To summarize the discussion, as always, Tim and Kurt end the show with a Grooving Session to recap what we learn about behavioral science in the wild!


    (5:04) Welcome to Dilip and Nina with speed round questions.

    (10:01) Why do we need a book about applying behavioral science research “in the wild”.

    (14:29) Why not all academic research is destined for the practitioner world?

    (18:04) Social norms matter but the right reference group is vital.

    (21:35) Background variables influence behavioral science in the wild.

    (29:27) Speed of testing can be a barrier.

    (31:33) Overcoming the issue of scalability.

    (35:24) How your time frame can affect output.

    (38:55) What to do when you don’t get the results you expect.

    (44:07) Don’t get caught shopping in the nudge store.

    (45:50) Music choices of Dilip and Nina.

    (51:29) Grooving session about behavioral science in the wild.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves

    Leading Human™

    Leading Human™ Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

    Leading Human™, Free Whitepaper Download: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/collections/leading-human/products/human-centered-workplace-checklist


    “Behavioral Science in the Wild (Behaviorally Informed Organizations)”: https://amzn.to/3xxAD04

    Nina Mazar: http://ninamazar.com/

    Dilip Soman: https://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/FacultyAndResearch/Faculty/FacultyBios/Soman

    Episode 102, Cristina Bicchieri: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

    Episode 232, Katy Milkman: How to Make Healthy Habits that Actually Last: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/katy-milkman-habits-that-last/

    Episode 16, Nudge-A-Thon with Dr. Christina Gravert: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nudge-a-thon-christina-gravert/

    Episode 202, How Chaning Jang Works Around Not Being WEIRD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-chaning-jang-works-around-not-being-weird/

    Behavioural Economics in Action at Rotman (BEAR): https://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/facultyandresearch/researchcentres/bear

    Musical Links

    Paul Simon “Graceland”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP6a-7MP91g

    Mark Knopfler “What It Is”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGmtonlys5A

    Kishori Amonkar “Swaranjali”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-FuttzRlWE

    Dire Straits “Brothers in Arms”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhdFe3evXpk

    Supertramp “Take The Long Way Home”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLP0y-X4uYs

    Fleetwood Mac “Dreams”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ywicffOj4

    Subramaniam and Stephane Grappelli “Conversations”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFI4TzUDc-8&ab_channel=AhmadAlArabii

    The 1988 Subramaniam-Bismillah Geneva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGOp7APcuMs

    The Cure “Just Like Heaven”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3nPiBai66M

    Kate Bush “Wuthering Heights”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1pMMIe4hb4

  • Personality or wealth are often assumed to be prerequisites to gaining power, something that is only garnered by having control over others. An organization chart in a company, however, does not illustrate who has power within the workplace, it only tells you who has authority. And as we learn in this episode, authority and power are not the same.

    By using workplace illustrations from the National Health Service (NHS) in the United Kingdom to a cigarette factory in France, Julie Battilana walks us through the precise definitions of power and authority. By understanding exactly what power is and how it really works, Julie breaks down the critical steps to successfully acquiring power and using it to disrupt hierarchies; by innovating, agitating and orchestrating.

    Julie Battilana is the Joseph C. Wilson Professor of Business Administration in the Organizational Behavior unit at Harvard Business School and the Alan L. Gleitsman Professor of Social Innovation at Harvard Kennedy School, where she is also the founder and faculty chair of the Social Innovation and Change Initiative.

    We value support from our listeners through our Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. If donating isn’t an option for you, don’t worry, you can’t write us a podcast review on your podcast player which will help other listeners find our show. Thank you.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    (3:32) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (7:29) Power and authority are NOT the same.

    (11:59) Who are the most effective change makers?

    (14:37) Power is having an influence over others but is also a freedom from the influence of others.

    (16:15) How can we choose the right leaders?

    (20:18) Empowering the powerless.

    (25:57) The power of collectivism.

    (30:17) Abuse of power by Putin.

    (36:02) How technology plays a part in abuse of power.

    (41:38) What checks on power are needed?

    (45:29) Is there hope for the future?

    (52:20) What music does Julie listen to.

    (54:55) Grooving Session discussing what we learnt from Julie.


    Leading Human Workbook and Playbook: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

    Groovy Snacks Newsletter: https://behavioralgrooves.com/newsletter-signup/

    “Power, for All: How It Really Works and Why It's Everyone's Business” by Julie Battilana and Tiziana Casciaro: https://amzn.to/3tRykRM

    Julie Battilana, PhD: https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=382192

    Fragrance De Soie tea: https://www.mariagefreres.com/FR/2-rose-de-soie-T8669.html?fbclid=IwAR2Zl2GOegLbbuXY5HRgPOICdbkcfAAgcWRamd9mt4plFsgSL_pARoD__UM

    Vanessa Bohns, Episode 253. Why You Don‘t Need to be Powerful to be Influential: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/influence-vanessa-bohns/

    LaTosha Brown: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTosha_Brown

    Jean Rogers, founder of Sustainability Accounting Standards Board (SASB): https://rogersassociatesllc.com/index.php/about-me/

    Social Innovation Change Initiative at Harvard Kennedy School: https://sici.hks.harvard.edu/

    Barefoot College: https://www.barefootcollege.org/

    Musical Links

    Stromae “Sante”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3QS83ubhHE

  • Do you strike up a conversation with a stranger on a plane or while waiting in line? If you don’t already, you will after listening to Nick Epley in this episode. Nick talks through his extensive research about talking to people we encounter and how it actually boosts our wellbeing.

    While many of us prefer engaging in some small talk with strangers, Nick advocates for the benefits of having a deep and meaningful conversation with people. The problem is, how do we actually start such a conversation with the person who just sat down next to us? Fear not, Nick delves into why we’re reluctant and how we can overcome our hesitation.

    Nick Epley is the John Templeton Keller Professor of Behavior Science and Director of the Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He studies social cognition — how thinking people think about other thinking people — to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. Recently Nick has written the book “Mindwise: Why We Misunderstand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want” and he talks in his interview about what he's working on next.

    As always, hosts Kurt and Tim end the show with a light-hearted Grooving Session to summarize what we have learnt from our guest. I’m sure you will agree that Nick’s interview leaves us with lots of helpful insights. But if there is just one thing you take away from this episode, great listeners, is never hesitant to seize the opportunity to pay a compliment.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    (3:40) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (4:57) Why it’s better to have a deep and meaningful conversation with a stranger?

    (7:18) Why are we reluctant to talk to strangers about something meaningful?

    (13:46) Why did Nick start studying undersociality?

    (21:06) What happens when strangers talk on a train?

    (29:33) How do you start a conversation with a stranger?

    (33:20) The benefits of a compliment.

    (39:21) Nick’s work in the future.

    (43:35) The mind-blowing way to get someone else’s perspective?

    (47:49) What music influences Nick.

    (51:24) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing what we learned from Nick Epley.


    Nicholas Epley: www.nicholasepley.com

    “Mindwise: Why We Misunderstand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want” by Nick Epley: https://amzn.to/3IodtLV

    Gary Becker: https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/economic-sciences/1992/becker/facts/

    Liz Dunn at University of British Columbia: https://psych.ubc.ca/profile/elizabeth-dunn/

    Episode 220: How Do You Become Influential? Jon Levy Reveals His Surprising Secrets: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/how-to-be-influential-jon-levy/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    Metallica “Master of Puppets”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnKhsTXoKCI

    David Tolk, piano player “Amazing Grace”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X24B_2TjPQ

    “All Creatures Great and Small” music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hLXxQPkAGk

  • As the political divide between left and right widens in the US and around the world, we seem to spend increasing amounts of time focusing on the idea that other people are wrong. But what if we stopped arguing about facts and talked about improving ourselves instead?

    “All of my knowledge is temporary, pending new information.”

    This is a motto that guest Peter Montoya lives by, which questions our own ego and behavior, more than other people’s.

    Peter Montoya is the author of “The Second Civil War: A Citizen's Guide to Healing Our Fractured Nation”, which we understand to be the first “political self help” for Americans. Instead of pointing the finger of blame at one side or the other, Peter challenges us to look inward at our own behavior, our own ego battle and our own craving to belong which can reveal a lot about the relationships we are building.

    Looking inwards is a personal journey that Peter has recently taken himself and we are incredibly grateful to him for the vulnerability and openness he shows in this episode. We are all just trying to be a better version of ourselves and we can see this endeavor reflected in the stories that Peter shares with us.

    If you enjoyed listening to this episode, we would be grateful if you could donate to our work through Patreon. Contributions we receive from listeners are used to fund the work on our podcast, and help ensure we can deliver more great content to you. Thank you!


    (7:19) Why do people fight on social media?

    (13:31) Why do we need a political self help book?

    (15:51) Arguing about politics really is stupid; but what’s the alternative?

    (20:43) What to do about social media and news rewarding extreme stories.

    (26:19) Why don’t facts or morality matter when changing minds?

    (29:34) What are our actual differences vs. our perceived differences?

    (30:13) Change starts with ourselves.

    (33:19) Understanding our own ego.

    (35:09) When you change yourself, you change your relationships.

    (47:17) The greatest song Peter has ever heard.

    (53:31) Grooving Session discussing what we’ve learnt from Peter.

    © 2021 Behavioral Grooves


    Peter Montoya: petermontoya.com

    “The Second Civil War: A Citizen's Guide to Healing Our Fractured Nation” by Peter Montoya: https://amzn.to/3w3ooHF

    Interested in becoming an Urth Co-Creator? Visit: www.Urth.cc

    Episode 215, Secrets of Subtraction: Donut Holes, Lego and Bruce Springsteen with Leidy Klotz: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/subtraction-with-leidy-klotz/

    Episode 10, Changing the World One View at a Time – with Reddit Superstar Kal Turnbull: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/changing-the-world-one-view-at-a-time-with-reddit-superstar-kal-turnbull/

    Dances with Wolves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dances_with_Wolves

    “The Seven Principles of Making Marriage Work” by John Gottman: https://amzn.to/36xZzcA

    Glossary of Behavioral Terms: https://behavioralgrooves.com/behavioral-science-glossary-of-terms/

    Episode 283, Henry Gee - Is The Anus Really The Key To All Intelligent Life? https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/anus-the-key-to-intelligent-life/

    Episode 226, The Power of Unity: Robert Cialdini Expands His Best Selling Book Influence: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cialdini-unity-in-influence/

    Episode 279, We Are Greater Together; The Power Of Belonging with Dominic Packer PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-power-of-belonging/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon Page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    The Beatles “I Wanna Hold Your Hand”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jenWdylTtzs

    The Sandells “Dirty Water”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5apEctKwiD8

    Radiohead “Daydreaming”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTAU7lLDZYU

    Bjork “Human Behaviour”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0mRIhK9seg

    The Clash “Rock The Casbah”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9r8LMU9bQ

    The Clash “London’s Calling”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfK-WX2pa8c

    Joe Strummer and The Mescaleros: “Yalla Yalla”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LliymbErupw&ab_channel=HellcatRecords

  • We are always learning, whether it’s changing careers or learning a new instrument. But how do we transition from the curiosity stage, to completely mastering the skill? It turns out it’s a rather predictable process. The growth and learning journey we all embark on, many times in our life, can, according to Whitney Johnson, be visualized on the S Curve of Learning. The growth and learning journey comes in three phases: the Launch Point, the Sweet Spot, and Mastery.

    In this episode with Whitney and in her new book “Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company”, we can learn how to keep going when growth is slow and why we sometimes leap from one journey to another. By familiarizing ourselves with the growth journey, we can better ourselves, our workplaces and our societies.

    Not only has Whitney been a fascinating guest on our podcast, she has also generously given us some signed copies of her book for our listeners! All you have to do is write a Twitter post about why you would like to read Whitney’s book Smart Growth on social media and tag us in the post: @behavioralgroov. We will choose the lucky winners and send you a FREE SIGNED COPY!


    (1:18) Find out how to WIN Whitney’s new book, “Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company”.

    (4:11) What is the S Curve of Learning?

    (11:33) How we have learnt to integrate our work life and home life during the pandemic.

    (15:44) Nobody climbs their S Curve alone; how important is context?

    (18:49) The 6 phases of the S Curve.

    (26:28) How Shellye Archambeau jumped onto new S Curves in order to reach the summit.

    (34:51) What is Whitney’s next challenge?

    (40:58) Whitney’s S Curve with music.

    (47:00) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim recapping what we learnt from Whitney.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Win a signed copy of Whitney’s new book at @behavioralgroov

    “Smart Growth: How to Grow Your People to Grow Your Company” by Whitney Johnson: https://amzn.to/3NpapCq

    “The Innovator's Dilemma: When New Technologies Cause Great Firms to Fail (Management of Innovation and Change)” by Clayton Christensen: https://amzn.to/3JE3mDu

    Thich Nhat Hanh quote: “You have to do it by yourself. You can not do it alone.”

    Episode 204, How Shellye Archambeau Flies Like an Eagle: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shellye-archambeau-like-an-eagle/

    Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/disrupt-yourself-podcast/

    Jacqueline Novogratz on Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/233-jacqueline-novogratz-when-the-work-gets-hard-look-for-beauty/

    Simon Sinek on Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/simon-sinek/

    Livingston Taylor On Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/livingston-taylor/

    Sunil Gupta on Disrupt Yourself Podcast: https://whitneyjohnson.com/222-suneel-gupta/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves.

    Musical Links

    Diana Krall “Just The Way You Are”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RYUZT57XA

    Stevie Wonder “As”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYQfWJNWe3I

    Rodgers & Hammerstein“Getting To Know You” from The King and I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vlx6gQWfjp0

    Aimee Nolte piano jazz tutorial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJCj7J69vsQ

    Tori Kelly “Don’t You Worry About A Thing”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skq4IQmt58o

  • Creating a motivating mindset is the most important component of any sales role. In fact, it’s a critical component of everything we do, but Donald C. Kelly enthusiastically reminds us in this episode that it’s a vital step in the sales process. Adopting a sales mindset can elevate you from a good sales person to a great sales person. Learn from Donald about how to get into the zone of a sales mindset.

    Donald has an extremely passionate, dedicated, and infectious personality. As producer and host of the extremely popular podcast, The Sales Evangelist, Donald lives, eats and breathes sales. He believes that anyone can become a sales person if they believe in themselves. Something that he started to discover for himself at the age of 7, when he started to sell mangoes in his hometown in Jamaica in order to help get him the cool Ninja bike that he wanted so badly.

    We dedicate part of our interview with Donald to discuss the blend of behavioral science in sales. If you’re interested in finding out even more about how behavioral science can be used in your workplace, the team at Behavioral Grooves have designed a new handbook on leadership called Leading Human. It is cater-made for leaders in sales or any management role to help explore the human challenges and overcome the stresses of working in a hyper-dynamic world. The handbook walks you through exercises that you can do with your team - to make sure that you are being the most effective manager possible. In this ever changing world, having a deep understanding of how to apply behavioral science insights to better lead your team is vitally important.


    (3:04) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (8:40) Are people born with a natural sales ability?

    (13:30) Why does our impression of sales come from car salesmen?

    (18:12) Donald’s sales journey started by selling mangoes.

    (22:38) How important is your mindset in sales?

    (24:37) How your environment activates your reticular activating system.

    (36:03) Why is behavioral science not integrated more in sales?

    (41:10) How Donald uses music to get in the zone.

    (45:27) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim sharing what we learnt from Donald.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Kurt and Tim on The Sales Evangelist Podcast, “Why Your Brain Lies To You: Cash Is NOT The Best Motivator”: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/tim-houlihan-and-kurt-nelson-phd-why-your-brain-lies/id788738885?i=1000473224218

    “Sell It Like a Mango: A New Seller's Guide to Closing More Deals” by Donald C. Kelly: https://amzn.to/36cH8Kt

    “The Sales Evangelist Sales Planner” by Donald C. Kelly: https://amzn.to/3ipIdAW

    Michael Jordan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Jordan

    Seth Godin: https://seths.blog/

    Leading Human Handbook designed for leaders: https://www.behavioralgrooves-store.com/products/copy-of-the-leading-human-playbook-workbook-package

    Musical Links

    Chronixx “Here Comes Trouble”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfeIfiiBTfY

    Koffee “Lockdown”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSzv3K3Keyg

    Drake “Money In The Grave”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3lH6CULHD0

    Damian Marley “Living It Up”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XN8h3JHmHw

  • Paleontologist Henry Gee humorously explains to us why the anus was the key to large animals evolving, how the large size of our “dangly bits” is unique to our species, and what exactly has been the significance to humans about bipedalism. Our colorful discussion with Henry hilariously highlights many of the mysteries surrounding our life on earth.

    "The anus was the key to all intelligent life, which is why one tends to have one's best ideas while sitting on the loo." ~ Henry Gee

    Henry describes himself as a “recovering paleontologist”, but he is also an author, and a musician. His day job is the senior editor of the scientific journal Nature.

    Having written numerous books, including The Accidental Species, The Science of Middle-Earth, Jacob's Ladder and In Search of Deep Time, Henry protested to his publisher that he wouldn’t write another [expletive] book. But Henry wrote another [expletive] book and we’re so glad he did! A (Very) Short History of Life On Earth is a fun and informative review of the delicate balance that has allowed life to survive and flourish on the planet.


    (5:49) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (10:21) Why was the development of the anus the key to all intelligent life?

    (13:01) Why are there no dinosaur sized animals anymore?

    (18:32) The story of why Henry wrote A (Very) Short History of Life on Earth.

    (23:55) Why bipedalism is such a mystery and a marvel.

    (31:57) Humans are uniquely good at endurance running.

    (35:07) Why do men have large penises and women have large breasts?

    (39:10) The musical significance of cave painting locations.

    (42:03) Bach was a rule breaker!

    (47:05) What work and music Henry is working on next.

    (51:24) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim reviewing what we learnt from Henry.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Henry’s book, “A (Very) Short History of Life on Earth: 4.6 Billion Years in 12 Pithy Chapters”: https://amzn.to/3I8HH4W

    Henry Gee on Twitter: @EndOfThePier

    Neil Gaiman: https://www.neilgaiman.com/

    Dan Lieberman: https://scholar.harvard.edu/dlieberman/home

    Musical Links

    Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRg0K5rgXog&ab_channel=CollinsClassics

    Juilliard String Quartet performs Bach, Art of Fugue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ILd81jY1v4

    BB King “Beautician Blues”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFA4UHl4upE

    Robert Johnson “Crossroads”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd60nI4sa9A

    G & T “Ice and a Slice”: https://open.spotify.com/album/5o4CQ6SJJ2hnGFvoCSMrsm

  • Connecting evidence-based behavioral science with public policy has been shown to deliver more effective government policies that strengthen communities. And there’s no-one better to explain this rigorous process than David Yokum PhD, who cut his teeth in behavioral science in the first White House Social & Behavioral Science team. David then went on to work as the Director of The Lab @ DC where he applied behavioral science to city issues. He now works as the Director and founder of The Policy Lab at Brown University, as well as hosting his own podcast, 30,000 Leagues.

    We were lucky enough to talk to David about the changing role of behavioral science inside government, some of the experiments that he has run, and how working proactively in gaining agreement upfront on an experiment's design with the community and policy makers can help cross political divides and actually change mindsets.

    The mission of The Policy Lab at Brown University where David now works is “to work in concert with government leaders and experts to develop evidence-based policy programs that improve lives and strengthen communities”, which, I think you’ll agree is one of the coolest missions anywhere.


    (2:31) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (4:18) The benefits of disconnecting from screens for a short time.

    (12:16) How applying behavioral science to public policy delivers better policy.

    (15:07) How has behavioral science application in public policy changed?

    (19:27) Behavioral science experiments can be run on hot button issues, like police body cams.

    (26:51) The political advantages of using randomized control trials.

    (31:39) Will experiment results be accepted across the political divide?

    (38:18) The barriers faced when turning experiment results into policy change.

    (42:56) Examples of successful partnerships between the civil service and the research communities.

    (49:14) About David’s podcast; 30,000 Leagues.

    (51:58) How David’s playlists are curated.

    (56:32) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt discussing what we’ve learnt from David.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    David Yokum on Twitter: @david_yokum

    30,000 Leagues Podcast: https://thirtythousandleagues.com/

    Office of Evaluation Sciences: https://oes.gsa.gov/

    Randomized Control Trial of the Metropolitan Police Department Body-Worn Camera Program: https://bwc.thelab.dc.gov/#approach/2

    North Carolina Office of Strategic Partnerships: https://www.osbm.nc.gov/operational-excellence/nc-office-strategic-partnerships

    R&D League - City of San Antonio: https://www.sanantonio.gov/Innovation/R-D-League

    Southwest Research Institute: https://www.swri.org/

    Jules Verne: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne

    Musical Links

    Hank Williams “You Win Again”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvYDQBIokz0

  • Control is the opposite of caring. And a caring mindset is one of the most important things a leader can possess. In a caring workplace, workers experience lower absenteeism, less burnout and more productive teamwork.

    “When we carry a mindset of control, we tend to shrink in our capacity, because we are likely to disconnect from our emotions, so we avoid what's happening with us and what may be happening with other people. There's really not a lot of room for us to express something beyond the cognitive.” ~ Sesil Pir.

    Sesil Pir may not be a household name, we are delighted to bring you our rich conversation with her, which is sprinkled with gems from her 20+ years of championing humanity in the workplace. More recently, Sesil has authored the book “Human-Centered Leadership: Awakening The Choice Within” after years of longitudinal research with Stanford University to pull the data, analyze it, and package it so nicely for us to read.

    “You can manage a task, you can divide it into pieces, you can time control yourself, or resource control yourself, but you cannot manage a human being…what we can do is lead one another.” ~ Sesil Pir

    Not only is Sesil’s book packed full of incredible leadership insights, 100% of the profits from the book are going to non-profit organizations to benefit the education of young girls in emerging markets. So, we strongly encourage you to buy the book, read it, and share her work with others you know.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    (5:46) Being successful vs being kind.

    (8:41) We always have a choice in how we show up.

    (12:57) The importance of going back to our purpose and being authentic.

    (16:13) Control is the opposite of caring. Why a caring mindset is important.

    (22:26) Leaders who are pessimistic about a caring mindset.

    (26:59) The difference between sympathy, empathy and compassion.

    (29:59) Why adaptability and resilience are vital in organizations.

    (36:46) What part do self esteem and trust play in leadership?

    (40:30) How to choose junior leaders in an organization?

    (48:35) Grooving session with Kurt and Tim discussing the human part of leadership.


    “Human-Centered Leadership” by Sesil Pir: https://amzn.to/3CzwB6f

    Kwame Christina, Episode 178: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    Eminem “Without Me”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVkUvmDQ3HY

    Diana Krall “Just The Way You Are”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RYUZT57XA

    Bebe “Siempre Me Quedara”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-HKvYDTpoc&ab_channel=AirinR

    Mercan Dede “Alef”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhmX8D9UQBw&ab_channel=netdm%C3%BCzik

  • We gravitate to people who are like us; our “tribe”. One factor that we use to assume that others are like us, is by the way they talk. Not just the words they speak, but the accent that they use to communicate. And yes, we all have an accent!

    Since the way we speak is central to our identity, do we have control over it by altering our accent or by learning a new language? And what implications does our hidden linguistic bias have in the workplace and for discrimination laws?

    Pioneering psychologist Katherine Kinzler PhD has spent years researching the way we talk and listen to voices. Katherine is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Chicago and author of the recent book “How You Say It: Why You Talk the Way You Do―And What It Says About You”. We talk with her about linguistic prejudices, and how she advocates for bilingualism, multilingual education and linguistic diversity.

    If you enjoy this episode, please leave us a quick review on your podcast platform. It really helps other listeners to find our content. You can also help fund our work by contributing to Behavioral Grooves through Patreon. Thank you!


    (4:16) Welcome to Katherine and speed round questions.

    (6:00) Can language be both fixed and malleable at the same time?

    (10:57) Why Katherine wrote a book about linguistic prejudice and valuing bilingualism.

    (13:40) How do you define good communication?

    (17:52) The implications of speech discrimination in the work place.

    (20:40) Do we gravitate to people who share a similar linguistic pattern to ours?

    (24:26) The value of multilingual education.

    (26:11) How young children learn about language having social relevance.

    (34:26) Our society teaches us to embed our kids with social norms.

    (39:03) How music from different cultures influences young children.

    (42:43) Grooving Session - linguistic prejudices and how we can overcome them.

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    Dr. Katherine Kinzler PhD: https://psychology.uchicago.edu/directory/katherine-d-kinzler

    “How You Say It: Why You Talk the Way You Do―And What It Says About You” by Katherine Kinzler: https://amzn.to/3BNn6BE

    Episode 274, Paul Bloom: Why Finding Pleasure in Life is a Painful Journey: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/pleasure-is-a-painful-journey/

    Spelke ES, Kinzler KD. “Core knowledge” Developmental Science. 2007 Jan;10(1):89-96: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17181705/

    Episode 102: Cristina Bicchieri: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

    Samuel A. Mehr, Lee Ann Song, Elizabeth S. Spelke, “For 5-Month-Old Infants, Melodies Are Social”: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797615626691

    Behavioral Grooves Patreon page: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

    Musical Links

    Music with Mr. Dave: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl1PsQ3ngWo&ab_channel=MrDaveMusic

  • We all have an inherent need to belong. And the groups we feel part of actually shape our behavior, more than we realize. They influence how we navigate the world and the way we relate to each other. In an increasingly polarized landscape, our social identities are often collapsed into a single dimension; Republican or Democrat, Brexit Leaver or Brexit Remainer. But our identities are multifaceted. And if we unpeel the complex layers of our identities, we reveal more commonalities than differences. Exposing that can be a powerful and unifying force.

    The Power of Us is an incredible new book, showcasing the potential we have when we harness our shared identities. In this episode, Dominic Packer, who co-authored the book alongside fellow researcher Jay Van Bavel, gives us a glimpse into their revolutionary new understanding of identity, and how our groups have a powerful influence on our feelings, beliefs, and behaviors. We also learn how these shared identities can inspire personal change and social movements.

    “Our social identities end up shaping a lot of how we navigate the world, a lot of our feelings about the world and how we relate to each other.” ~ Dominic Packer

    If you enjoy Behavioral Grooves podcast, please leave us a quick review on your podcast platform. It really helps other listeners to find our content. You can also become a mega-fan by contributing to Behavioral Grooves through Patreon. Thank you!


    (3:28) Welcome and speed round questions.

    (9:16) How polarization is collapsing our identities into a single dimension.

    (11:36) How priming a particular part of your identity can change how you think.

    (14:59) Does the 24 hour news cycle constantly remind us of our political identity?

    (17:26) Who is The Power Of Us written for?

    (18:55) Why were the Minimal Group Studies so important to understanding group identities?

    (24:59) Who is most likely to dissent from a group?

    (28:22) In-group love is not inherently the same as out-group hate.

    (31:39) What factors lead to out-group hate?

    (33:41) What steps can create more cohesion between groups?

    (36:07) Why did the COVID-19 pandemic cause division and not unity?

    (44:55) How music can make you feel part of a group and reinforce your identity.

    (54:54) Grooving Session discussing what we have learnt about our own social identities.


    “The Power of Us: Harnessing Our Shared Identities to Improve Performance, Increase Cooperation, and Promote Social Harmony” by Jay J. Van Bavel PhD, Dominic J. Packer PhD: https://amzn.to/3BsmzF6

    Henri Tajfel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Tajfel

    Oprah Winfrey “Discrimination Exercise” show: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ1PGDEKaqs

    Jane Elliott: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

    Musical Links

    Treble Charger “American Psycho”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZqCwEgOv1k

    Green Day “Time of Your Life”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnQ8N1KacJc

    Nirvana "Smells Like Teen Spirit": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg

    Dave Grohl, drumming solo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYq-AIJSbg&ab_channel=painmanist

  • Influential is probably not a word you use to describe yourself if you are the quiet/smart/kind type of person. Furthermore, you probably have misconceptions about what it even means to have influence. Zoe Chance believes intelligent and caring people are precisely those who should learn how to harness their influence and then use it for bigger, more socially important issues. And she practices what she preaches! Zoe is donating half of the profits from her new book to fight the climate crisis.

    “Influence Is Your Superpower: The Science of Winning Hearts, Sparking Change, and Making Good Things Happen” is the fantastic new book that Zoe has written. On this episode of Behavioral Grooves, we delve into Zoe’s clever way of framing system 1 and system 2 thinking, how being influential isn’t as hard as it appears, and about what she likes to call The Magic Question!

    As a professor at the Yale School of Management, Zoe studies and teaches influence, focusing on research-based strategies to create positive impact in people’s lives. She teaches the most popular course at the Business School, called “Mastering Influence and Persuasion” which is affectionately known on campus as the "Doing Uncomfortable Things That Make You a Better Person” course!


    (3:04) Welcome and speed round.

    (7:20) The Gator Brain vs The Judge Brain.

    (13:10) Charisma isn’t something you are, it’s something you do.

    (17:57) When are people open to being influenced by us?

    (21:00) What is The Magic Question?

    (26:04) How Zoe is using her influence.

    (28:57) How does Zoe teach her students about their influence?

    (36:04) How global warming got reframed into the climate crisis.

    (40:05) Reframing the replication crisis.

    (44:07) How Zoe uses music to create an inclusive, influential atmosphere.

    (49:37) Grooving session recapping how we can use Zoe’s insights to wield our superpower of influence!

    Do you know you have the power to influence other podcast listeners! If you enjoy Behavioral Grooves podcast, please leave us a quick review on your podcast platform. It really helps other listeners to find our content. You can also become a mega-fan by contributing to Behavioral Grooves through Patreon. Thanks!

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves


    “Influence Is Your Superpower: The Science of Winning Hearts, Sparking Change, and Making Good Things Happen” by Zoe Chance: https://amzn.to/3EYKXOz

    Zoe Chance: zoechance.com

    Kopi Luwak coffee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kopi_luwak

    Black Ivory coffee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ivory_Coffee

    Brit Marling (The OA): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_Marling

    Eldar Shafir: https://psych.princeton.edu/person/eldar-shafir

    “The Charisma Myth: How Anyone Can Master the Art and Science of Personal Magnetism” by Olivia Fox Chance: https://amzn.to/3HE93jp

    Paisley Park: https://www.paisleypark.com/

    350.org: https://350.org/

    Jia Jong 100 Days of Rejection Challenge: https://www.rejectiontherapy.com/100-days-of-rejection-therapy

    Frank Luntz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Luntz

    Brazilian billionaire Chiquinho Scarpa burying his Bentley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8GvaEPyX9Y&ab_channel=LeoBurnettTailorMadeBrazil

    Musical Links

    Prince “I Wanna Be Your Lover”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp8WL621uGM

    Rasputin by Boney M: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16y1AkoZkmQ&ab_channel=BoneyMVEVO

    Bella Ciao from Money Heist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46cXFUzR9XM&ab_channel=NetflixIndia

  • No regrets is a phrase thrown around like a badge of honor. Tattoos, songs and marketing taglines all boast this notion of curating a liberated life that you wouldn’t alter, change or modify in any way. But are we missing something? Best-selling author, Daniel H. Pink has done extensive research for his new book, The Power of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward, and believes that the feeling of regret isn't just something that makes us human, it actually gives us hope.

    Daniel Pink is the author of seven books, including the New York Times bestsellers When and A Whole New Mind — as well as the #1 New York Times bestsellers Drive and To Sell is Human. Dan’s books have won multiple awards, have been translated into 42 languages, and have sold millions of copies around the world.

    Dan was also the host and co-executive producer of “Crowd Control,” a television series about human behavior on the National Geographic Channel that aired in more than 100 countries. Before venturing out on his own 20 years ago, Dan worked in politics and in government, including serving as chief speechwriter to Vice President Al Gore.


    (3:56) Speed round questions

    (7:48) How Dan started to lean into his own regrets.

    (10:49) The complex emotion of regret.

    (12:16) Will we regret switching our answers on a test?

    (16:33) How Dan has compiled data on regret.

    (18:55) How our regrets change as we age.

    (22:11) Can we anticipate our regrets?

    (26:29) How our unique moral code affects our regrets.

    (29:40) The Four Core Regrets.

    (33:47) What didn’t go in Dan's book.

    (39:45) The power of self compassion.

    (41:35) Why regret gives us hope.

    (46:40) What music would Dan never regret listening to?

    (50:40) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim recapping the Four Core Regrets and what we can learn from them.

    Please don’t regret supporting your favorite podcast this year! You can become a regular donator to Behavioral Grooves through Patreon, https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves. And you can leave us a review of the podcast wherever you listen to the show. Thanks!

    © 2022 Behavioral Grooves

    Daniel H. Pink Books

    The Power Of Regret: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward: https://amzn.to/3gpU1C9

    Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us: https://amzn.to/3gpUcgN

    To Sell is Human: The Surprising Truth About Moving Others: https://amzn.to/3Laj0aU

    When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing: https://amzn.to/3rtspCM


    Episode 171: Self Control, Belonging, and Why Your Most Dedicated Employees Are the Ones To Watch Out For with Roy Baumeister: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/self-control-belonging-and-why-your-most-dedicated-employees-are-the-ones-to-watch-out-for-with-roy-baumeister/

    “Commission, Omission, and Dissonance Reduction: Coping with Regret in the "Monty Hall" Problem”: shorturl.at/wEU58

    Jonathan Haidt, “The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion: https://amzn.to/3Glfdnq

    Musical Links

    Simon & Garfunkel “The Sound of Silence”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAEppFUWLfc&ab_channel=SimonGarfunkelVEVO

    Ella Fitzgerald Live in Berlin “Mack The Knife”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVxtdQgLjuQ

    J.S. Bach “Adagio”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ywL_zokELE

    Three Dog Night “Mama Told Me Not To Come”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTCyjYjsVc8&ab_channel=Moondoggy

    Men Without Hats “Pop Goes The Word”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zUUtf7gOe8&ab_channel=MenWithoutHatsVEVO

    Bob Seger “Turn The Page”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khH9ih2XJg&ab_channel=jimmej955

  • When we set goals, we’re excited, engaged and motivated to complete them. But after a while, the momentum can slow, we lose enthusiasm and we start cutting corners. The “middle problem” is something we can all relate to. And it's one of the topics we discuss on this episode with Dr Ayelet Fisbach PhD.

    Ayelet teaches us about staying motivated, without cutting corners. How our identity, flexibility and patience actually affect our goals. And perhaps, most importantly, why we should set ourselves uncomfortable goals and learn from our failures.

    Talking with Ayelet on Behavioral Grooves was a true privilege for us. She is one of the few researchers on the planet who blend motivation and goal setting into their work, and her groundbreaking research has won her a bunch of international awards. She is the Jeffrey Breckenridge Keller Professor of Behavioral Science and Marketing at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business, and also the recent author of Get it Done: Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation (https://amzn.to/3f3ooh4).

    Can we motivate some of our regular listeners to support our podcast via Patreon https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves? Or perhaps your 2022 goal is to tell your favorite podcasters how much you love their show?! We’d love to help you achieve that goal; just click here if you’re an Apple podcast listener: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behavioral-grooves-podcast/id1303870112 or write a review on your favorite podcast player.


    (6:18) Welcome and speed round.

    (9:19) What tools do we have to motivate ourselves?

    (10:18) Why flexible goals are vital.

    (14:11) Exceeding your own expectations is when you feel good about your goals.

    (16:45) The problem with the middle.

    (18:47) We can all get tripped up by the planning fallacy.

    (21:28) Set goals, not means (goals aren’t chores).

    (24:57) How does our identity affect our goals?

    (28:29) The different ways patience plays a part in goals.

    (30:59) Why identifying temptations can help you avoid them.

    (34:04) How food labels could improve our eating habits.

    (38:28) Setting an uncomfortable goal can actually be rewarding.

    (44:12) Learning from failure.

    (49:35) How Ayelet engages with music.

    (52:05) Grooving Session discussing Ayelet’s research.

    © 2021 Behavioral Grooves


    Write a review for Behavioral Grooves podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/behavioral-grooves-podcast/id1303870112

    Ayelet Fishbach, “Get It Done: Surprising Lessons from the Science of Motivation”: https://amzn.to/3f3ooh4

    Ayelet Fishbach: https://www.ayeletfishbach.com/

    The Marshmallow Test: Why Self-Control Is the Engine of Success: https://amzn.to/34de2sS

    Abigail Sussman: https://www.chicagobooth.edu/faculty/directory/s/abigail-sussman

    Second city: https://www.secondcity.com/

    Episode 228. Kelly Leonard, Getting to Yes, And…Behavioral Grooves: Two Podcasts in One: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/getting-to-yes-and/

    Paul Bloom, “The Sweet Spot: Suffering, Pleasure and the Key to a Good Life”: https://amzn.to/32QfmBS

    Episode 274, Paul Bloom: Why Finding Pleasure in Life is a Painful Journey: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/pleasure-is-a-painful-journey/

    Ethan Kross, “Chatter: The Voice in Our Head, Why It Matters, and How to Harness It”: https://amzn.to/32Vj0Ks

    Carol Dweck, “Mindset: Changing The Way You think To Fulfill Your Potential”: https://amzn.to/3GjBvGp