Episodes
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“You were involved for over 20 years with an apocalyptic, survivalist UFO-like cult. Before joining the cult, you were a bright 16-year-old who later attended Princeton and played football for them as a cornerback. Looking back, you were essentially a bright, educated, charismatic young man who happened to meet the wrong person at the wrong time.” Hoyt describes his upbringing as “normal,” growing up in an affluent family outside Philadelphia. He remembers himself as a social, talented athlete with many friends. While vacationing with family and friends on Nantucket, an upscale Cape Cod Island, he encountered a man named Frederick von Mierers (his real name was Freddy Meyers). Frederick approached 16-year-old Hoyt, laid a towel beside him, and engaged him in conversation about spirituality. Frederick would later become the leader of a cult known as Eternal Values.
Hoyt’s life didn’t end with his cult experience; it inspired his purpose. He dedicated himself to filmmaking, podcasting, and advocacy, educating the public about cultic dynamics.Hoyt is currently developing a memoir titled Picture Perfect, a documentary series, and a feature film based on his life and experiences. This is a fascinating person.
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“I do feel we have an obligation to speak up,” Alexandra Stein, PhD said on this episode of Cult Conversations: The Influence Continuum, “and it’s tough for people to resist these systems when there is total silence, and that’s what these systems kind of rely on.” Alexandra exited a ten year stint in a left wing political cult when she was 36 years old. Alexandra is a writer and educator specializing in the social psychology of ideological extremism and other dangerous social relationships. Her latest book, Terror, Love, and Brainwashing: Attachment in Cults and Totalitarian Systems, was released as a second edition in 2021. She is also the author of Inside Out: A Memoir of Entering and Breaking Out of a Minneapolis Political Cult. She presented her statement for the Congressional Record for the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol titled Political Cults and the Use of Cultic Tactics in the Recruitment and Mobilization of Participants in the January 6 Attack on the Capitol. Based in the UK, Stein is one of a growing number of ex cult members who have become academics who wish to share their expertise with others. A Fascinating conversation.
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Cult survivors often have the instinct to want to save as many people as possible from the cult they survived. However, healing from the things they encountered while in the cult is often a first step before a survivor can help others escape. Cult survivors usually seek to heal with some form of therapy and move on. Nori was a member of ISKCON from 1978 to 1988. As a member of the PR office, Nori lived in a bubble with some of the cult’s abuses hidden from her so she could maintain her positive opinion of the cult as part of her work. After leaving the cult, Nori learned about the abuse of women and children in the cult. The University of Illinois Press published Nori’s memoir, Betrayal of the Spirit, in 1997. After that she wrote and self-published Child of the Cult and Cult Survivor’s Handbook For a more detailed look at the atrocities the Hare Krishnas committed, check out the documentary Monkey on a Stick: Murder, Madness, and the Hare Krishnas. Nori Muster and Steve Gelberg are two former members interviewed in this well-done film. Join us for a fascinating discussion that includes art therapy and other expressive therapy approaches to healing.
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For many, practices like meditation and yoga are among the most thrilling avenues for deepening spiritual awareness. At their best, these techniques can serve as a neurological and biochemical reset—enhancing self-awareness and empowering transformation. But at their worst, they can cause a loss of personal grounding, leaving individuals vulnerable to exploitative relationships or mental, physical, and even sexual harm under unethical or authoritarian figures. As a result, people often find themselves wagering between powerful tools for psychological growth and the risk of undue influence. In this episode of Cult Conversations: The Influence Continuum, I speak with my longtime friend and colleague, David Christopher Lane, PhD—Professor of Philosophy and Sociology at Mt. San Antonio College—about this delicate balance. David is the author of numerous books, including The Making of a Spiritual Movement: The Untold Story of Paul Twitchell and Eckankar, The Radhasoami Tradition, Exposing Cults: When the Skeptical Mind Meets the Mystical, The Unknowing Sage, and The Virtual Reality of Consciousness. Cambridge University Press published his most recent book, The Sound Current Tradition: A Historical Overview, in 2022. He also co-authored an annotated bibliography on the Radhasoami movement for Oxford University Press. Beyond academia, David is a world champion bodysurfer with titles spanning from 1997 to 2016. David is also an expert on neuroscience and virtual reality technology.
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Those who have experienced Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) or Complex Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (C-PTSD) will often report the profoundly painful experience of being thrown into past trauma by a particular trigger. Common examples include war veterans who may experience full body activation following a loud explosive noise. Another example is victims of violent crimes being shown content about similar circumstances that can launch them into the past. This experience of being thrown back in time has been thoroughly analyzed utilizing Time Perspective Therapy (TPT) by co-developer and counselor Rosemary Sword. Rose is the co-author of the renowned 2012 book The Time Cure: Overcoming PTSD with the New Psychology of Time Perspective Therapy. She worked on the book with her husband, clinical psychologist Richard Sword, PhD, and Philip Zimbardo, PhD, psychologist and professor at Stanford University. When Richard passed away from gastric cancer a year and a half later, she continued her work on TPT with Zimbardo, eventually coming to their new book Seeing Through the Grief. While it was released in the spring of 2024, Zimbardo sadly passed away in October. Other projects they worked on included a second TPT book titled Living & Loving Better, partnering with Happify.com Premium to offer Overcome PTSD and Heal from Grief and Loss, as well as a Psychology Today column, The Time Cure. This is a fascinating interview.
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Power can be rapidly stripped away from individuals, or it can be taken away layer by layer. Not everyone makes it out of a cult, but life can become particularly meaningful when they do. A new purpose can arise for the person, more substantial than the grasp of mind control. Leaving an authoritarian cult is the experience that Dr. Debbie Haski-Leventhal, PhD, shared with us on this episode of Cult Conversations: The Influence Continuum. She found this meaning after a period of healing and self-exploration when she left the Kabbalah Centre. Her parents brought her into it when she was only five years old. She devoted her life to it as a chevre (hand-picked servants of Philip and Karen Berg, its leaders). She was able to escape by age nineteen. Debbie currently describes her role as “a professor of purpose and impact”, working with individuals and companies to make lives more meaningful. She crafted her book after decades of exploring what pro-social and satisfying behaviors bring to life. Her book is both inspirational and practical, laying out pointers from the model she developed. She believes strongly in Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) and works with business leaders to better utilize their human resources into meaning on both an individual and group basis. I must say, I loved this book, listened to it as an audiobook, and then bought it as a paperback and read it. It is a must-read book, in my opinion, for all survivors of mind control cults. It is an inspiration!
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“How did I get to the point where I am upset with this current administration?” Joe Szimhart asks at the start of this week’s Cult Conversations: Influence Continuum episode. His journey from a self-described “cult believer” to a leading expert on esoteric religious movements offers invaluable insights into how authoritarian influence takes hold in both spiritual and political spheres.
Like Joe, I transformed my experience in my former cult, the Moonies, into a lifelong mission to understand undue influence and help others regain their minds. We are coming together on this episode because we are on alert about the dangerous overlap between authoritarian influence and today’s political landscape. Our conversation reveals a sobering truth: self-indoctrination can be just as powerful as formal brainwashing—and no one is immune. Being well-read won’t help you to avoid getting recruited into a cult. Nor will being highly intelligent protect you and or being happy. However, psychoeducation will help you learn how to identify destructive cults and what research you need to do before giving them your contact information or agreeing to do any activity with strangers- no matter how attractive the recruiter is. We talk about Agni Yoga and Church Universal and Triumphant cults- and how Vlamimir Putin and his wife were devotees of Agni Yoga and Michael Flynn did a “decree” from Elizabeth Clare Prophet’s cult. Flynn traveled the USA with the Moonies cult for their Rod Of Iron Freedom Festivals recruiting for Trump and the supposed “civil war” to come. This is a fascinating interview.
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Marietje Schaake is a Fellow at Stanford University’s Cyber Policy Center and Stanford’s Institute for Human-Centered Artificial Intelligence. As a Dutch politician, she also served as a member of the European Parliament from the Netherlands between 2009 and 2019. She was appointed to the United Nations High-Level Advisory Body on AI in 2023. With the announcement that Donald Trump would seek peace talks with Russia first without including Ukraine, and while U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance scolded Europe about free speech at the Munich Security Conference, many have said that we are seeing an end to the transatlantic alliance as it has been known since WWII. Schaake agreed with this concern and stated that not only is this an ending of an alliance, but that the U.S. has become an adversary to the European Union (E.U.). She explained that Vance’s speech, a week before the German election, was meant to boost the far-right Alternatives for Germany party at a precarious time. Schaake explained that while Vance portrayed Europe’s protection of speech as a lack of freedoms, she feels it is a trap to narrowly view the debate about social media and its harms through the lens of free speech. “On the one hand, European countries have very far-reaching protections of freedom of expression. It’s slightly different from the First Amendment, but it’s definitely widely protected. The whole idea that free speech is not protected in European countries is nonsense,” Schaake said. With Elon Musk taking over more and more of our government every day and ousting anyone who is not a strict loyalist, many have begun to ask when the right to free speech will falter. Join us for this vitally important conversation.
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Elon Musk, a corporate billionaire and private naturalized American citizen born in South Africa, has taken an extraordinary amount of power in government since Donald Trump took office as President less than a month ago. Musk is seeking to interfere with elections in Germany and other countries around the world. Vance recently told European leaders to allow more “free speech” but what that means is use of social media and media to push authoritarianism. Dr. Stuart Shulman holds a PhD in American Politics and has done extensive teaching and leadership roles in collaborative interdisciplinary research. Additionally, as founder and CEO of Texifter, he discussed the analysis of Twitter data, his work supporting academic access to data, and federal agency review of public comments on proposed rules. Stuart and I discussed how Twitter was gamified through QAnon since 2017. He tracked QAnon, a tale of a high-up government official with a “Q-level” clearance covering nuclear weapons and related materials and tweeting about supposed confidential information. Coded language and “crumbs” were then created to entice signaling, and Trump often alluded to this through tweets. Stuart noted that in a December 1-12, 2017, dataset with 2.3 million mentions of Michael Flynn, “#followthewhiterabbit” and “the Great Awakening” and other QAnon buzzwords in the Tweets. Stuart noted how the Alternate Reality Gaming (ARG) characters often have made-up names and emojis and could have come from anywhere in the world, including Russia, China, India, and other nations that may not have the best interests of voters and citizens in western democracies.
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Kate Woodsome is the founder of The Invisible Threads Project, which studies the relationship between mental health and democracy. We talked about the recent election of Trump and the support for that process from the Heritage Foundation, Opus Dei implications, and Project 2025. She was part of The Washington Post team who won a Pulitzer Prize for Public Service in coverage of the January 6th Capitol attack. Woodsome left The Washington Post in 2023, stating in her biography that she could no longer normalize the trauma, burnout, and moral injury pervasive in the industry. She noted in our discussion that her childhood contained abuse and trauma that the Capitol attack would reawaken. Once able to rely on being a workaholic who pushed through, she decided to take a step back and focus on healing and the rediscovery of self-identity and self-worth. This eventually allowed her to return to focus on social movements. She covered The People’s March on January 18th, 2025, and then went on to speak with Trump supporters outside of the Capital One Arena in Washington, D.C., following his inauguration. “What I’m really trying to focus on is civil discourse and looking at the underlying roots of our problems, as opposed to their ugly symptoms,” said Woodsome.We discussed looking for opportunities with family and friends to find common ground and common beliefs. We also discussed empowering people to think for themselves. Not everyone is as radicalized, and fringe members may not fully understand the beliefs and practices of the core community.
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Kristofer Goldsmith is the founder and CEO of the nonprofit group Task Force Butler Institute, which trains veterans in research and operations to counter extremism. He is an Iraq combat veteran, accomplished public policy advocate, nonprofit leader, and expert on the threats posed by domestic extremist organizations that work against Democracy. His group focuses on gathering intelligence on dangerous individuals and hate groups while also teaching the skills and context necessary to keep veterans and communities safe. Like me, Kris couldn’t believe Trump gave pardons to the violent #Jan6th insurrectionists serving time in jail for their crimes against America. We both believe we are in World War III and fighting fascism at home. Musk, Thiel and other billionaires are on the record that they dont believe in democracy of upholding the Constitution nor do they want to help the USA remain a superpower. They are busy with NeoTech conspiracy to take over the world and dismante our administrative state using the Heritage Foundation’s 2025 playbook. Kris is a patriot and has inspired many vets to step up with him to oppose what is being done to us. You will find this a fascinating conversation and be heartened that he is a courageous person stepping up to do defend our country.
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This interview had two foci: ISKCON and Tulsi Gabbard’s Connection to Krishna Hinduism and his new academic book on music and its role in psychedelics states. Gelberg was a Krishna devotee for 17 years and has written about his experiences with the cult and why he exited. He is now a successful photographer and author. We discussed the more recent finding that Tulsi Gabbard, nominated by Trump to be Director of National Intelligence, shows ties to Krishna Hinduism and ISKCON. Chris Butler, who is the guru of Tulsi Gabbard, was a disciple of the Krishna movement and Prabhupada. The group is known for its homophobia. “The Krishna movement also is very misogynistic. They try to hide that. They don’t like talking about it. They know it's not popular, but if you go to Prabhupada's books, he repeats what he learned from the Hindu tradition about women being lesser and needing to be always under the control of a man and less spiritually adept than men are” Steven said. He then expressed concerns about ties with this organization and what that may mean by Gabbard’s beliefs around these topics. In addition to his spiritual and academic education after leaving the cult, Gelberg continued to tune into an evolving “Psychedelic Renaissance” as the government began to loosen regulations allowing for legitimate clinical studies and inspiring the creation, by growing numbers of colleges and universities, of programs and centers for the study of psychedelics and their therapeutic effects.
Learn more about Steven Hassan and Freedom of Mind Resource Center. Visit freedomofmind.com
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Ever hear the term coercive control? Did you know the UK government made it a crime? It is the application of undue influence methods and techniques used by a person, typically a man against a partner to do what I have been calling mind control- as in my BITE Model. However, women especially need to know what the techniques are and how to navigate a family court system in the USA which is largely ignorant and children and women are being greatly harmed. Dr. Cocchiola holds a doctorate in social work, is a licensed clinical social worker, is a tenured college professor, and is an expert in coercive control as is Amy Polacko, an award-winning journalist and investigative reporter, and divorce coach.Their excellent book is a resource for women going through divorce, married women noticing early warning signs, and those considering marriage, offering practical advice and raising awareness of systemic challenges.Despite persistent myths that women are more often favored, family courts can be gender-biased, and some women who report abuse encounter even harsher outcomes. The authors aim to inspire reform in family court practices and contribute to future legislative efforts to protect women from abusive legal dynamics.
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Former cult members often reference the moment when they finally realized they were in a cult. In 2023 the Watchtower Society reported approximately 8.6 million members. Like many cults, Jehovah's Witnesses discourage critical thinking and members' exposure to any information that could be critical of the belief system. Such insolation from the real world is one way to keep people brainwashed. For Andre Jackson, who grew up as a Jehovah's Witness, this moment of "waking up" became the focus of his Doctoral dissertation. Andre grew up in Germany, where his mother became a Jehovah's Witness when he was 7 years old. By the age of 10, Andre accepted the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses: When he almost needed a blood transfusion (which the group teaches to be a transgression against God), he rejected it and was willing to die for his belief. Andre focused his dissertation research on the waking up process of Bethelites, Jehovah’s Witnesses who live and work in the Bethel compounds. Around 0.25% of Jehovah's Witnesses, around 22,000 individuals, are Bethelites. So how do people "wake up"? Come join us in this fascinating discussion.
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"Conversion therapy"—a discredited practice that purports to change an individual's sexual orientation and/or gender identification and expression—has harmed countless lives under the guise of morality. I spoke to Lucas Wilson, an SSHRC Postdoctoral Fellow at the University of Toronto Mississauga, as he shared his harrowing experience with "conversion therapy" at Liberty University. His story serves as a testament to the perseverance of the unique human spirit and a warning against the devastating impacts of undue influence. A scholar, editor, and advocate, Wilson's work sheds light on the intersections of evangelicalism, homophobia, and trauma. He is the editor of the forthcoming Shame-Sex Attraction: Survivors' Stories of Conversion Therapy, which compiles narratives from 17 contributors, offering diverse perspectives on a practice that major medical, psychiatric, and psychological organizations have condemned. A recent Canadian study cited by Wilson underscores the two most impactful ways to support survivors of "conversion therapy": listening without judgment and reconnecting with affirming communities. Survivors benefit immensely from being heard and validated. Listening affirms their experiences and begins the process of rebuilding trust. Additionally, reconnecting with a supportive queer community provides a safe space for healing and affirmation, countering the isolation imposed by conversion practices. Wilson's story is not just about survival but also about transformation. It highlights the dangers of unhealthy influence while demonstrating the power of education, community, and self-acceptance. As conversations around "conversion therapy" and undue influence continue, stories like Wilson's remind us of the urgent need for advocacy and awareness. Together, we can create a world where everyone can live authentically without fear or shame.
Learn more about Steven Hassan and Freedom of Mind Resource Center. Visit freedomofmind.com
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Carol highlights the urgent need to reform the law, especially concerning coercion and control in legislative practices. She focuses exclusively on clients who have endured sexual abuse and coercion within cultic groups—not because other forms of abuse are absent, but because the law currently recognizes and addresses this specific type of abuse. The legal system inadequately acknowledges coercion in cases where individuals surrender significant amounts of money to cults or relinquish their rights to education, marriage, parenthood, or the choice not to have children. The law appears to narrowly define coercion, primarily in the context of sexual exploitation. The law also fails to recognize the deception involved when individuals are promised enlightenment through sexual relations with cult leaders, as it does not categorize this as fraud due to its religious context. There should be a legal distinction between legitimate religions deserving of tax exemptions and those that systematically defraud, enslave, or control individuals through coercion. We should not grant tax benefits to organizations that violate the law. Yet, currently, there is no clear standard for religious tax exemptions beyond the essential requirement that organizations do not operate as commercial enterprises. Merchasin is a former partner at Morgan, Lewis, and Bockius in Philadelphia, where she was an employment lawyer investigating issues of sexual misconduct in the workplace. She is currently the head of Sexual Misconduct in Spiritual Communities Counsel at the law firm of McAllister Olivarius, which represents survivors of sexual misconduct in cults and spiritual communities. Check out this important interview.
Learn more about Steven Hassan and Freedom of Mind Resource Center. Visit freedomofmind.com
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Many people daydream, and this is an entirely normal part of life. However, when daydreaming is taken to the extreme and creates psychological distress or impairs functioning, it can be considered maladaptive and may require intervention. Trauma causes many issues for survivors, whether the trauma was sustained in one event or many events over many years. Cult survivors exhibit symptoms of trauma ranging from PTSD and trust issues to guilt and shame. Some trauma symptoms develop because of the defense mechanisms our minds employ to save us from the trauma. The DSM-V-TR lists brainwashing and cult coercive persuasion as a dissociative disorder. As an expert on dissociation and hypnosis, I wanted to learn from Eli Somer, Ph.D., professor emeritus of psychology at the University of Haifa School of Social Work. Professor Somer’s interests have led him to research trauma and its effects. One effect of trauma can be dissociation, a psychological process in which a person disconnects from their thoughts, feelings, memories, or sense of identity, often as a response to trauma or stress. Professor Somer coined the term maladaptive daydreaming, a dissociative disorder characterized by excessive, immersive daydreaming that disrupts daily functioning and serves as an escape from reality. There are many other fascinating topics we cover including use of psychedelics, false memories, and non use of hypnosis. Come join us!
Learn more about Steven Hassan and Freedom of Mind Resource Center. Visit freedomofmind.com
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Dustin Rozario Steinhagen, PhD is a privacy expert who recently graduated with his doctorate degree in Cyber Defense from Dakota State University. His dissertation is titled “Defending the security of the mind: A mail survey of thought-reform literacy in South Dakota.” This quantitative analysis measured “what everyday people know about thought reform and psychologically manipulative groups.” One of the most powerful defenses a person can have against mind hacking is admitting they are vulnerable to it. After that, skills can be acquired and built upon to teach people how to protect themselves further. However, we mustn’t let our guard down when it comes to our brains and minds coming under attack. Like anti-virus software needing updates to protect against the latest cyber threats, our minds also require ongoing learning to maintain psychological security in addition to adequate rest, play, and sleep. Influences are also more challenging to detect, more frequent in occurrence, from multiple directions, and require vigilance when interacting with different levels of trusted or untrusted sources. Having trusted groups who respect personal privacy and have our best intentions in mind becomes extremely important in such an environment.
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Professor Boyle is a full-time faculty member at St. John’s University School of Law, New York (since 1994). She is a board member of the International Cultic Studies Association. She has written Law journal articles on using Trafficking law to prosecute cult leaders and uses my BITE Model of Authoritarian Control. Robin’s new book, Taken No More: Protecting Your Children Against Traffickers and Cults, will be published in 2025. Her articles, essays, and book chapters appear in legal and academic publications, many peer-reviewed. She writes and publishes on topics of undue influence, using the human trafficking statutes to prosecute cult leaders, the Violence Against Women Act, gaining emancipation for youth, rape laws, and stalking. Her articles, essays, and book chapters appear in legal and academic publications, many peer- reviewed. She regularly presents at conferences domestically and internationally (Canada, China, England, France, and Spain) on topics concerning human trafficking and coercive control in high-demand groups. The laws need to be updated to protect human rights. Join us for a fascinating discussion.
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Australian Maria Esguerra tells us that it’s still difficult to speak about her personal experiences as a second-generation survivor of The Children of God cult. In this episode of The Influence Continuum, we explored the challenges of breaking free from cults and how those who become part of society’s natural defense system against cult indoctrination and authoritarianism help to free others. She traced her story back to a childhood of illnesses that mainly went untreated. “I had measles, chicken pox, mumps, malaria, every imaginable childhood disease, lots of parasites,” she said. Her father would eventually die when she was only four years old from Hodgkin Lymphoma, a form of cancer considered to be largely curable. She explained that in The Children of God cult, medical care was avoided as illnesses were considered the fault of the person or as “God judging you.” Maria is now a psychologist and Director of Assessable, an organization dedicated to serving people with disabilities. This is an especially commendable achievement in that her early life was shaped by her parent’s involvement in The Children of God cult. We discussed the experience of raising children within the cult and what ultimately pushed Maria to leave. One of the critical factors in her decision was her son’s battle with meningitis, which left him in a coma at a medical research center for ten days, resulting in a lifelong brain injury. While in Africa, Maria became pregnant again and endured harsh conditions. Upon returning to Australia, she resolved to create a new reality for her children—one rooted in safety and love, something she had not been given. Maria is an inspiration for everyone!
Learn more about Steven Hassan and Freedom of Mind Resource Center. Visit freedomofmind.com
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