Episodes
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I'm really excited to come out of hiatus to share this conversation with you. You may have noticed people are talking a lot about AI, and I've started focusing my journalism on the topic. I recently published a 9,000 word cover story in Jacobinâs winter issue called âCan Humanity Survive AI,â and was fortunate to talk to over three dozen people coming at AI and its possible risks from basically every angle. You can find a full episode transcript here.
My next guest is about as responsible as anybody for the state of AI capabilities today. But he's recently begun to wonder whether the field he spent his life helping build might lead to the end of the world. Following in the tradition of the Manhattan Project physicists who later opposed the hydrogen bomb, Dr. Yoshua Bengio started warning last year that advanced AI systems could drive humanity extinct.
(Iâve started a Substack since my last episode was released. You can subscribe here.)
The Jacobin story asked if AI poses an existential threat to humanity, but it also introduced the roiling three-sided debate around that question. And two of the sides, AI ethics and AI safety, are often pitched as standing in opposition to one another. It's true that the AI ethics camp often argues that we should be focusing on the immediate harms posed by existing AI systems. They also often argue that the existential risk arguments overhype the capabilities of those systems and distract from their immediate harms. It's also the case that many of the people focusing on mitigating existential risks from AI don't really focus on those issues. But Dr. Bengio is a counterexample to both of these points. He has spent years focusing on AI ethics and the immediate harms from AI systems, but he also worries that advanced AI systems pose an existential risk to humanity. And he argues in our interview that it's a false choice between AI ethics and AI safety, that it's possible to have both.
Yoshua Bengio is the second-most cited living scientist and one of the so-called âGodfathers of deep learning.â He and the other âGodfathers,â Geoffrey Hinton and Yann LeCun, shared the 2018 Turing Award, computingâs Nobel prize.
In November, Dr. Bengio was commissioned to lead production of the first âState of the Scienceâ report on the âcapabilities and risks of frontier AIâ â the first significant attempt to create something like the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) for AI.
I spoke with him last fall while reporting my cover story for Jacobinâs winter issue, âCan Humanity Survive AI?â Dr. Bengio made waves last May when he and Geoffrey Hinton began warning that advanced AI systems could drive humanity extinct.
We discuss:
His background and what motivated him to work on AIWhether there's evidence for existential risk (x-risk) from AIHow he initially thought about x-riskWhy he started worryingHow the machine learning community's thoughts on x-risk have changed over timeWhy reading more on the topic made him more concernedWhy he thinks Google co-founder Larry Pageâs AI aspirations should be criminalizedWhy labs are trying to build artificial general intelligence (AGI)The technical and social components of aligning AI systemsThe why and how of universal, international regulations on AIWhy good regulations will help with all kinds of risksWhy loss of control doesn't need to be existential to be worth worrying aboutHow AI enables power concentrationWhy he thinks the choice between AI ethics and safety is a false oneCapitalism and AI riskThe "dangerous race" between companiesLeading indicators of AGIWhy the way we train AI models creates risksBackgroundSince we had limited time, we jumped straight into things and didnât cover much of the basics of the idea of AI-driven existential risk, so Iâm including some quotes and background in the intro. If youâre familiar with these ideas, you can skip straight to the interview at 7:24.
Unless stated otherwise, the below are quotes from my Jacobin story:
âBengio posits that future, genuinely human-level AI systems could improve their own capabilities, functionally creating a new, more intelligent species. Humanity has driven hundreds of other species extinct, largely by accident. He fears that we could be nextâŠâ
Last May, âhundreds of AI researchers and notable figures signed an open letter stating, âMitigating the risk of extinction from AI should be a global priority alongside other societal-scale risks such as pandemics and nuclear war.â Hinton and Bengio were the lead signatories, followed by OpenAI CEO Sam Altman and the heads of other top AI labs.â
âHinton and Bengio were also the first authors of an October position paper warning about the risk of âan irreversible loss of human control over autonomous AI systems,â joined by famous academics like Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman and Sapiens author Yuval Noah Harari.â
The âposition paper warns that âno one currently knows how to reliably align AI behavior with complex values.ââ
The largest survey of machine learning researchers on AI x-risk was conducted in 2023. The median respondent estimated that there was a 50% chance of AGI by 2047 â a 13 year drop from a similar survey conducted just one year earlier â and that there was at least a 5% chance AGI would result in an existential catastrophe.
The October âManaging AI Risksâ paper states:
There is no fundamental reason why AI progress would slow or halt when it reaches human-level abilities. . . . Compared to humans, AI systems can act faster, absorb more knowledge, and communicate at a far higher bandwidth. Additionally, they can be scaled to use immense computational resources and can be replicated by the millions.
âHereâs a stylized version of the idea of âpopulationâ growth spurring an intelligence explosion: if AI systems rival human scientists at research and development, the systems will quickly proliferate, leading to the equivalent of an enormous number of new, highly productive workers entering the economy. Put another way, if GPT-7 can perform most of the tasks of a human worker and it only costs a few bucks to put the trained model to work on a dayâs worth of tasks, each instance of the model would be wildly profitable, kicking off a positive feedback loop. This could lead to a virtual âpopulationâ of billions or more digital workers, each worth much more than the cost of the energy it takes to run them. [OpenAI chief scientist Ilya] Sutskever thinks itâs likely that âthe entire surface of the earth will be covered with solar panels and data centers.ââ
âThe fear that keeps many x-risk people up at night is not that an advanced AI would âwake up,â âturn evil,â and decide to kill everyone out of malice, but rather that it comes to see us as an obstacle to whatever goals it does have. In his final book, Brief Answers to the Big Questions, Stephen Hawking articulated this, saying, âYouâre probably not an evil ant-hater who steps on ants out of malice, but if youâre in charge of a hydroelectric green-energy project and thereâs an anthill in the region to be flooded, too bad for the ants.ââ
LinksHow We Can Have AI Progress Without Sacrificing Safety or Democracy by Yoshua Bengio and Daniel Privitera in TIME MagazineAI extinction open letterAI and Catastrophic Risk by Yoshua Bengio in the Journal of DemocracyRegulating advanced artificial agents by Michael K. Cohen, Noam Kolt, Yoshua Bengio, Gillian K. Hadfield, Stuart Russell in ScienceHow Rogue AIs may Arise by Yoshua BengioFAQ on Catastrophic AI Risks by Yoshua BengioEpisode art by Ricardo Santos for Jacobin.
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Carl Robichaud is the first person I go to on the topic of nuclear weapons. He has been working as a grantmaker and analyst of nuclear weapons policy for close to two decades. He co-leads nuclear security grantmaking at Longview Philanthropy, where I used to work as a media consultant. Prior to Longview, Carl led nuclear grantmaking for the Carnegie Corporation of New York.
We recently saw Oppenheimer together and decided to have a discussion about the film, the real history, and nuclear weapons more broadly.
This episode is being released on the 78th anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing. The Nagasaki bombing happened just three days later, after the Japanese emperor had already secretly decided to surrender. As we discuss, the fact that nuclear weapons have not been used in war in the nearly eight decades since should be seen as a remarkable achievement, or a sign of extreme luck.
We have a spoiler-filled discussion of the new film Oppenheimer and the real history until 31:12, in case youâd like to skip ahead.
We discuss:
Alternatives to bombing Hiroshima and NagasakiThe controversial development of the hydrogen bombOppenheimer's retrospective feelings about the bombHealth effects of nuclear testsWhy the world isn't totally full of nukesWhether ICBMs can be justified while nuclear subs existWhy the US won't commit to no first useHow arms control agreements help get out of trapsUkraine and the possible breaking of the nuclear tabooWould we all dieNear missesWhether there's always a âguy in the chairâWhat we should doAspiring for a world free of nuclear weaponsCalls to action The decline of activist and philanthropic interest in nuclear weaponsLinks:
Estimated nuclear warhead stockpiles, 1945 to 2022âThe Illogic of Nuclear Escalationâ by Fred Kaplan in Asterisk MagazineThe Doomsday Machine by Daniel EllsbergHumankind by Rutger BregmanMy discussion of the book with RutgerâThe Atomic Bombings Reconsideredâ by Barton J Bernstein in Foreign AffairsâCounting the dead at Hiroshima and Nagasakiâ by Alex Wellerstein in the Bulletin of Atomic ScientistsâThe Puzzle of Non-Proliferationâ by Carl in Asterisk MagazineInheriting the Bomb: The Collapse of the USSR and the Nuclear Disarmament of Ukraine by Mariana Budjeryn80,000 Hours Podcast: Daniel Ellsberg on the creation of nuclear doomsday machines, the institutional insanity that maintains them, and a practical plan for dismantling them.âRonald Reaganâs Disarmament Dreamâ by Jacob Weisberg in the AtlanticHow many people would be killed as a direct result of a US-Russia nuclear exchange? By Luisa RodriguezWikipedia: List of nuclear close callsâ39 years ago today, one man saved us from world-ending nuclear warâ by Dylan Matthews in VoxLongview Philanthropy: Nuclear Weapons Policy FundâThe biggest funder of anti-nuclear war programs is taking its money awayâ by Dylan Matthews in Vox General Advisory Committee's Majority and Minority Reports on Building the H-Bomb - October 30, 1949J. Robert Oppenheimer - Address to the American Philosophical Society - delivered 16 November 1945, University of Pennsylvania, PA -
Missing episodes?
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[This episode was recorded before the FTX collapse. It contains some discussion of Sam Bankman-Fried. Habiba has asked me to pass on that, to say the least, she no longer endorses what she says about Sam as an example of someone doing good. I've also linked in the show notes to her twitter thread with her thoughts on FTX.]
This episode is a long time in the making. Weâre going deep on the intersection of effective altruism (EA) and the left.
When I tell people that Iâm a leftist and into effective altruism, theyâre often surprised. A lot of the recent criticism of EA from the left may make it seem like the ideas and communities are incompatible, causing people to genuinely ask, can you be an effective altruist and a leftist? I think you can. But that doesnât mean there arenât real tensions between the two approaches to improving the world.
This is not meant to be a point by point rebuttal of any criticisms of EA or the left. Instead, I wanted to better understand myself how these ideas interact.
To discuss this, I brought on Habiba Islam. Habiba is a career advisor for 80,000 Hours, an organization that helps people find high-impact careers. 80,000 Hours grew out of the effective altruism movement, but Habiba also identifies as a leftist. As youâll soon discover, Habiba has given these ideas a lot of thought and helped clarify a lot of longstanding confusions for me.
We go through our backgrounds with the left and EA and attempt to define each. We then go through hidden agreements EA and the left have, misconceptions each has about the other, and the real disagreements between EA in practice and the left.
When I first got into EA and left politics, I had grand plans to try to reconcile the two. I felt like EAâs commitment to prioritization, responding to evidence, and doing whatever works could help make the left better at achieving its goals. And I thought that the leftâs ability to build movements, shape narratives, analyze power, and understand history could shore up some major blindspots within EA. Time has tempered my ambitions a bit, and I think there are good reasons why the left and EA will and should remain distinct things. But there is still a lot each can learn from the other.
Left critiques of EA:
2015 LRB essay on effective altruism: Stop the Robot ApocalypseJacobin: Against Charity: Rather than creating an individualized âculture of giving,â we should be challenging capitalismâs institutionalized taking.Show notes:
Paper: Effective Altruism and Anti-Capitalism: An Attempt at ReconciliationVox: Caring about the future doesnât mean ignoring the present: Effective altruism hasnât abandoned its roots.Winners of the EA Criticism and Red Teaming ContestJacobin: The Socialist Case for LongtermismBook: The Birth of the Pill: How Four Crusaders Reinvented Sex and Launched a RevolutionTED Talk: How civilization could destroy itself -- and 4 ways we could prevent it | Nick BostromBook: Four Futures: Life After CapitalismPaper: The Fallacy of Philanthropy by Paul GombergWikipedia: TRIPS AgreementEffective Altruism Forum: Growth and the case against randomista developmentEffective Altruism Forum: Tax Havens and the case for Tax JusticeEffective Altruism Forum: Cause area proposal: International Macroeconomic PolicyHow Rich Am I? Find out how rich you are compared to the rest of the world â are you on the global rich list?Slow Boring: The rise and importance of Secret Congress -
Rutger Bregman is the bestselling author of Utopia for Realists and Humankind: a Hopeful History. He has been profiled in the New York Times and interviewed on the Daily Show. Rupert Murdoch has been spotted reading his book, and Tucker Carlson called him a âfucking moron.â
I first came across Rutger years ago when a friend was reading Utopia for Realists. The book, which argues for UBI, open borders, and a 15 hour work week, intrigued me, but Iâm ashamed to admit I havenât read it.
He popped back up on my radar when he appeared at Davos, the annual gathering of the super-wealthy, and lambasted his audience for not talking about taxes. The viral moment he created led to an invitation onto Tucker Carlsonâs show, where Rutgerâs challenge to the Fox News host led to what can only be described as a meltdown. In our interview, Rutger goes deeper into the full story of both events than Iâve seen anywhere else.
We spend the bulk of the interview discussing his book Humankind, which argues that people are actually pretty decent, but power corrupts. This is one of my favorite books, and I canât recommend it highly enough.
We wrap up with a discussion of Rutgerâs relationship with effective altruism, the philosophy and social movement trying to do as much as possible to improve the world.
In particular, we discuss:
His career and the publication of Utopia for Realists The unlikely success of the book His trip to Davos Making Tucker Carlson lose his mind Veneer theory and why Rousseau is underrated How people actually behave in disasters Why carpet bombing cities backfires Why distance kills The domestication of humans Why socializing makes us smart The problems with Milgram's shock experiments The replication crisis Criticisms of Rutgerâs portrayal of hunter gatherer life His journey to effective altruism His ideas for solving EAâs billionaire problem His plans for an EA-adjacent book The broader changes to EA over the years Hijacking status for good How committing your career to helping others might actually make you happiestLinks:
Discourse on Inequality
The Doomsday Machine
Violence
The Secret of Our Success
The Dawn of Everything
The real Lord of the Flies: what happened when six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months
The Possibility of an Ongoing Moral Catastrophe
Giving What We Can
Grilled
TMIPIK - Leah Garcés on Working with Factory Farmers to Help Animals
If Youâre an Egalitarian, How Come Youâre So Rich?
Famine, Affluence, and Morality
Yes, itâs all the fault of Big Oil, Facebook and âthe systemâ. But letâs talk about you this time
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Alexander Zaitchik is a freelance journalist and author with work in The New Republic, The Nation, The Guardian, and elsewhere. Zaitchik has written two books, one about Glenn Beck and another exploring Trumpâs America. Heâs working on a third, out in January 2022, called Owning the Sun: A Peopleâs History of Monopoly Medicine, from Aspirin to Covid-19.
This episode is about one of the most important stories in the world right now: global vaccine production and distribution. Alex wrote a long-form investigation in the New Republic called âHow Bill Gates Impeded Global Access to Covid Vaccinesâ, which goes deep into the global intellectual property paradigm that is limiting vaccine production and the people who defend it.
We recorded this episode before the US announced support for some kind of waiver on vaccine patents. Itâs important to note that the US did not back the TRIPS waiver proposed by South Africa and India in October 2020. The US is also reportedly concerned that sharing information would undermine American competitiveness with China and Russia in biopharmaceuticals. The idea that it would be bad if more countries developed the ability to make advanced vaccines is emblematic of the harms of prioritizing profit-making in an industry so essential to human wellbeing. A source in the Biden administration also said the negotiations are expected to take months.
Last Thursday, the Gates Foundation reversed course and supported a temporary suspension of IP rights on Covid vaccines. The Foundationâs statement cites the number of cases in Brazil and India as a reason to support the suspension. But Bill Gates was pushing against any efforts to suspend IP protections right until the US supported some kind of waiver. Gatesâ firm position for over a year has been that IP protections play zero role in limiting vaccine supply, but now his foundation supports suspending those protections because we need to increase vaccine supply so badly. Either Gates recently came across some really persuasive evidence, or public opinion actually can still matter.
As I record this, India is being ravaged by Covid. Yesterday, nearly 400,000 new cases were reported, a number which almost certainly represents a small fraction of true cases. Less than 10 percent of the country has received even one dose of vaccine. Hospitals and crematoria alike are overwhelmed and there is an acute shortage of wood due to the sheer number of deaths. Domestic policy failures of the Modi government play a big role in this story, but so too do the choices of pharmaceutical firms and their client governments like the United States and other rich countries.
We cover a lot of ground and dispel a lot of myths propagated by the pharmaceutical industry.
We specifically discuss:
Gatesâ heavily managed perception as a do-gooderHis approach to public health and what opportunities it foreclosesHow Gates' ideological investments run deeper than his financial onesThe affirmative case for IP protections in drug development The problems with that caseAlternative models of incentivizing drug developmentThe incentives the current system creates A brief history of drug development in the USHow the US military developed a majority of successful vaccines made in the 20th centuryThe story of South Africa and AIDS drugsThe TRIPS waiver proposalWhether it's true that IP is the reason we aren't maximizing vaccine production Modernaâs empty promise to not enforce their patentsThe argument that profit motives havenât been strong enough The PR boon vaccines have been for big pharmaWhat a fully public response could have looked likeA response to Gatesâ argument that IP is necessary for quality control How a tech billionaire became the de facto global public health czarThe role he really plays in the public health spaceI think this is one of the most important episodes of the show so far. So much rides on whether governments make decisions that prioritize global public health, even if they come at the expense of the profits of one industry.
Buy Alex's book in January 2022.
Alexâs writing:
How Bill Gates Impeded Global Access to Covid Vaccines
No Vaccine in Sight
Modernaâs Pledge Not to Enforce the Patents on Their COVID-19 Vaccine Is Worthless
Links:
They Pledged to Donate Rights to Their COVID Vaccine, Then Sold Them to Pharma
Goldman Sachs asks in biotech research report: âIs curing patients a sustainable business model?â
TRIPS waiver: thereâs more to the story than vaccine patents
Myths of Vaccine Manufacturing
Views from a vaccine manufacturer: Q&A - Abdul Muktadir, Incepta Pharmaceuticals; Pandemic Treaty Action
Video of Gates responding to criticism of his push to close-source the Oxford vaccine
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Tobias Leenaert is the author of How to Create a Vegan World: a Pragmatic Approach, which has been translated into five languages. He is the cofounder of ProVeg International, which aims to reduce the consumption of animal products by 50% by 2040. Tobias also writes the Vegan Strategist blog, where he shares strategies for convincing people to reduce their animal product consumption.
We discuss:
the difference between pragmatism and idealism in animal advocacywhy intentions matter less than we thinkâvegalomaniaâ and whether a vegan diet is really the healthiestwhen behavior change leads belief changehow vegetarians reduce almost as much harm as veganshow reducetarian do more for animals than veganshow much easier it's gotten to be veganveganism's bad brand and why so many people hate on vegansa thought experiment for veganswhy strict veganism can be counterproductivehow you can help animals without being a vegan or vegetarianwhere analogies between animal agriculture and other crimes break downhow to be an effective animal advocatewhat heâs most looking forward toI think this episode is useful for both vegetarians and vegan activists and people who are interested in consuming less animal products but arenât sure how.
Links:
Vegetarians reducing almost as much suffering as vegans60% of veggies ate meat in last 24 hrsMOST AMERICANS DIDN'T APPROVE OF MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. BEFORE HIS DEATH, POLLS SHOWChomsky on the lack of early meaningful opposition to the Vietnam warRules for Radicals -
Conor Oberst is one of the most prolific singer-songwriters of the last twenty years. Best known for his work with Bright Eyes, Oberst has also collaborated with Flea, Jim James, Alt-J, and Phoebe Bridgers. His most recent song, âMiracle of Lifeâ, featuring Bridgers, raised money for Planned Parenthood and opposed Trumpâs nomination of Amy Coney Barrett to the Supreme Court.
Oberst sat for an interview with me this fall as the first in a series for Jacobin. An edited and condensed transcript can be found here. We talked a bit about politics (Oberst made public stances against the Iraq War and supported Bernie Sanders in 2016 and 2020) and a lot about music.
Iâve been a big fan of Bright Eyes and Conorâs solo work for years now, so it was a real treat to get to chat with him.
Be sure to check out Bright Eyes's first album in 9 years, Down in the Weeds, Where the World Once Was.
As always, you can find me on Twitter @GarrisonLovely
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David Shor is a data scientist and the former head of political data science for Civis Analytics, a Democratic think tank. In 2012, he developed the Obama campaignâs in-house election forecasting system, which accurately predicted the outcome to within a point in every state. David was the subject of some controversy this summer when he was fired following his tweeting of an academic paper. The paper argued that violent protests decreased Democratic presidential vote share while nonviolent protests increased vote share. Unfortunately, David is not at liberty to discuss the details of this incident, which is an excellent example of what happens when employment protections donât exist.
I want to state up front that the focus of this episode is on how to improve the electoral prospects of Democrats, which is Davidâs expertise. I have many disagreements with the Democratic party and its leaders, and there are many pathways to power beyond electoral politics. But Americaâs political institutions are extremely powerful, and ensuring that they are controlled by the non-death cult party is important.
We discuss:
What happened in the 2020 election Why the electoral college is biased towards Republicans Efforts to combat structural bias against the Democratic partyWhy the polls were wrong again and why theyâll be very hard to fixWhy Bernie would have won in 2016 but may not have in 2020How Democratic staffers and left wing activists are massively unrepresentative of the American publicThe electoral obstacles to passing Medicare for All and how to make the policy more politically popular Policies that combat inequality without raising taxesWhether Democrats actually want to winWhy Democrats need the working class to win power Why good politicians stay relentlessly on messageHow we can move voters towards policy positions we think are justWhy Democrats should talk more about issues and less about valuesWhat we can learn from the growth in support for same sex marriageThe importance of getting the media on your sideLinks:
National Popular Vote Interstate Compact
Matt Grossman on Twitter
David Shor on Twitter
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Trevor Beaulieu is the host of the podcast Champagne Sharks, a âpodcast about race, politics, and pop culture, through the lenses of humor and psychology.â The show has released over 300 episodes on a huge range of topics, from Afro-pessimism and social justice, to Marvel movies and Tumblr. Iâve only scratched the surface of the show, but have really enjoyed the episodes Iâve listened to so far. Check out the show notes for a few of my favorites. Trevorâs many appearances on Chapo Trap House are also well worth a listen.
You can find Trevor on Twitter: @rickyrawls and Champagne Sharks: @champagnesharks. Iâm on Twitter @garrisonlovely.
You can check out Champagne Sharks wherever you find podcasts, and you can subscribe at https://www.patreon.com/champagnesharks
On todayâs episode we discuss:
Our experience with the pandemic so farThe insanity that is the US stock market during covidWhy Trevor thinks black people canât afford to be totally anti-capitalistThe distinctions between social democracy and socialismTrevorâs firsthand experience with racism in scandinavia How fragile any kind of liberal democracy isHow Trevor started Champagne SharksHow Chapo Trap House is like the Daily Show for new left podcastsThe willingness to look into the political abyssHow the right prioritizes property over peopleâs livesThe recent uprisings over police violence against black peopleWhether nonviolent protests are more effectiveWhy Killmonger from Black Panther was rightA few of my favorite Champagne Sharks episodes:
CS 238: Is The Whole Internet Becoming 4Chan? Pt. 1 feat. Dale Beran (01/23/2020)
CS 186: Tumblr Brain feat. Jaya Sundaresh (@shutupjaya) (06/20/2019)`
CS 272: Karens (Hard-R) With Attitude feat. Nashwa Khan pt. 1
CS 276: The Futureless Now feat. Matt Christman pt. 1
CS 274: After the Bern feat. Felix Biederman pt. 1
CS 282: Live, Love, Work and Catastrophe feat. Rob Delaney
CS 284: Clarence Thomas and The Reactionary Mind Pt. 1 feat. Corey Robin
CS 280: Afropessimism feat. Frank Wilderson III *DOUBLE EPISODE*
Show notes:
Why the stock market is divorced from the pain of a pandemic economy
What if âHerd Immunityâ Is Closer Than Scientists Thought?
Video showed police thank (Kyle Rittenhouse) & give him water prior to the killings
Wage Theft vs. Other Forms of Theft in the U.S.
The 1968 Kerner Commission Got It Right, But Nobody Listened
The Protesting of a Protest Paper
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Ross Barkan is an award-winning journalist and former political candidate. Ross ran for state senate in Brooklyn in 2018 (where he was endorsed by AOC). He is back to full-time journalism, with a column in the Guardian and frequent contributions to the Nation and Gothamist. He also has work in the New York Times, the Washington Post, the New Yorker, New York Magazine, and the Columbia Journalism Review. In both 2017 and 2019, he was the recipient of the New York Press Clubâs award for distinguished newspaper commentary. He now teaches journalism at NYU and St. Josephâs College. He also created a popular newsletter, Political Currents, on New York and national affairs.
As always, links to his work will be found in the show notes. Rossâs Substack newsletter, Political Currents, is an amazing font of information on New York City politics.
In todayâs episode, we discuss:
His experience running for state senate, the curse of fundraising, and how running for office destroys your social life, how small dollar digital fundraising is fueling left wing candidates, what a DSA endorsement means and why Ross thinks he didnât get it, why he thinks he didn't win, what you should consider when deciding whether to run for office, how De Blasio and Cuomo bungled New Yorkâs COVID response, how Cuomo refuses to raise taxes on the wealthy, the lack of any meaningful action to reduce the power of the NYPD, why Ross doesnât support police abolition and why we think the case for prison abolition is stronger, Bernieâs loss and the progress the left has made in recent years, and the very exciting election of five DSA-endorsed candidates to statewide political office in New York
More about Ross:
www.rossbarkan.comPolitical Currents newsletterhttps://twitter.com/RossBarkanLinks:
Seattleâs Leaders Let Scientists Take the Lead. New Yorkâs Did Nothttps://makebillionairespay.info/ Was the NYPD Budget Cut by $1 Billion?Reasonable Doubt: A New Look at Whether Prison Growth Cuts CrimeRossâs piece on prosecutors in the Baffler: Exterminating Angels: The American myth of the progressive prosecutorTiffany CabĂĄn Eyes City Council Run, Will Launch Campaign Thursday -
Charlie Bresler is the Executive Director of the Life You Can Save, a nonprofit founded by Peter Singer that inspires and empowers people to take action in the fight against extreme poverty.
Charlie was previously the president of the Menâs Warehouse and a professor of clinical psychology. Later in the episode, we dig into Charlieâs path from psychology, to menâs fashion, to fighting global poverty. The inspiration for this episode is the release of the 10th anniversary edition of the book The Life You Can Save by Peter Singer. The book offers an overview of the intensity of global poverty and the related human suffering and makes a compelling case to donate more to more effective charities. Contrary to popular belief, there are charities that have proven track records of delivering effective interventions, some of which can save a childâs life for less than two thousand dollars. The new edition of the Life You Can Save is available for free in e-book and audiobook format. The audiobook is read by a number of celebrities, including Kristen Bell, Paul Simon, and Stephen Fry. In addition to the book, we discuss:
Where The Life You Can Save is now, the shallow pond thought experiment, the myth that we don't know what works in global poverty and health, why an "empathy fund" may be more sustainable, framing effective giving as an opportunity vs. an obligation, why being a doctor doesn't do as much good as we think, how Charlie's democratic socialism informs his life, why EAs aren't as radical you might expect them to be.
If youâre familiar with Effective Altruism, Iâd recommend skipping to about 35 and a half minutes in. Most of the ideas we discuss for the bulk of the episode are probably familiar to you, but you may be interested in our conversation on the intersection of EA and radical politics.
Show notes:
Famine, Affluence, and Morality
Over 5M children die before they turn 5 each year
The Moral Imperative toward Cost-Effectiveness in Global Health
The Limits of Power
The Politics of War: The World and United States Foreign Policy, 1943-1945
The World the Slaveholders Made: Two Essays in Interpretation
Woman, Culture, and Society
American Power and the New Mandarins
Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky
Dystopia in Fiction and in Fact: How âNineteen Eighty-Fourâ teaches us the wrong lessons about dictatorshipâŠ
Hozierâs new protest song Jackboot Jump
Homage to Catalonia
Politics and the English Language
You can reach out to Charlie directly at:
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Edgar Villanueva is a globally-recognized expert on social justice philanthropy. He serves as Chair of the Board of Directors of Native Americans in Philanthropy. Edgar currently serves as Senior Vice President at the Schott Foundation for Public Education where he oversees grant investment and capacity building for education justice campaigns across the United States.
He is also the award-winning author of Decolonizing Wealth, a bestselling book offering hopeful and compelling alternatives to the dynamics of colonization in the philanthropic and social finance sectors.
In addition to working in philanthropy for many years, Edgar has consulted with numerous nonprofit organizations and national and global philanthropies on advancing racial equity inside of their institutions and through their investment strategies.
We spend most of our conversation on Edgarâs book, specifically:
How he became disillusioned with the philanthropy sector, America's refusal to engage with its history of colonialism and racism, the coloniser's mindset and how it ties to contemporary philanthropy, how people of color are left out of philanthropic spending, the 5% foundation payout requirement and why most foundation money is parked in investment accounts, a call to transfer capital back to impoverished communities, poverty in precolonial times, the potlatch ceremony, a challenge to the thesis of Decolonizing Wealth from an effective altruism perspective, the problem with the term altruism, the problems that are solved by just giving people money with no strings attached, shifting the power and choice from donors to the people they're trying to help, the ties between capitalism and white supremacy, and how to learn more and join the Decolonizing Wealth giving circle
Near the end of the episode we had some audio drop out, did what I could to piece things back together and didn't end up losing too much, but there are some awkward cuts.
If youâd like to learn more about the book visit decolonizingwealth.com. You can find Edgar on Twitter at @VillanuevaEdgar and me at @GarrisonLovely. If youâd like to get in touch directly, you can email me at mostinterestingpeople27 [at] gmail [dot] com.
Show notes:
Report: 72% of Americans rarely encounter or receive information about Native Americans
Decolonizingwealth.com
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Akash Mehta is a writer and organizer from New York. He is a member of the New York City Democratic Socialists of America and helped organize UChicago for Bernie. Akash recently wrote a great article for Jacobin called Even in a Pandemic, Andrew Cuomo Is Not Your Friend. Governor Cuomo has received a lot of good press for his handling of the coronavirus crisis in New York, but his past and present decisions have made the state less prepared for this ongoing calamity. We discuss those decisions in great detail as well as:
Why Cuomo is popular and trusted right now, how his "get things done" brand obscures real ideological differences between him and the Left, why ideology does influence the response to the coronavirus, Milton Friedman's keen understanding of the politics of crises, the links between Biden and Cuomo, how Cuomo empowered Republicans in New York to kneecap progressives in his own party, his plan to cut Medicaid by billions due to his unwillingness to increase taxes on the wealthy, how he blames private hospitals for not having enough ICU beds, even though he played a substantial role in cutting 20k beds in the state, why we should provide free healthcare for all conditions, not just the coronavirus, Cuomo's prioritization of homeowners over renters, the choice we face between prioritizing the needs of the market over the needs of people, a call to join political membership groups like the DSA or the Sunrise movement, what you can do to influence the New York State budget, a plan for a left news site devoted to New York City politics, and my thoughts on the intersection between Effective Altruism and the Left.
As we discuss near the end of the episode, the changes Cuomo is pushing are part of a state budget that is due on March 31st. Cuomo has responded to public pressure by releasing people incarcerated for technical parole violations and may cave to pressure to reject these cuts. You can contact his office using this form and/or calling at 1-518-474-8390.
If you live in New York, you can find your state senator and assembly member here: https://openstates.org/find_your_legislator/
Calls to their offices opposing these cuts and supporting the proposals in #makebillionairespay could help influence billions of dollars in funding to people in great need. The site for #makebillionairespay also has guidance on how to effectively pressure your representatives: https://makebillionairespay.info/take-virtual-action
You can reach out to Akash at akvmehta [at] gmail [dot] com. As always, you can find me on Twitter @GarrisonLovely and reach out to the show at mostinterestingpeople27 [at] gmail [dot] com
Show notes
Milton Friedmanâs quote: âOnly a crisis - actual or perceived - produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes the politically inevitable.âHow Obama Failed: On every level, the Obama administration couldn't break with neoliberalism. We're living with its failures today.Everything Has Changed Overnight: The Democratic primary is no longer over. This is a historic crisis requiring nothing less than FDR-style ambition and leadership. Weâve got just the guy.Lancet Medicare for All Study analysis (link to original study is deadâŠ)Andrew Cuomoâs Treatment of Prisoners Reveals Heâs Leaving Some At-Risk New Yorkers BehindCuomo orders 1,100 parole violators released from jails over coronavirus concernsEffective Altruism surveyThe NYC DSAâs excellent weekly email newsletter The Thorn -
CONTENT WARNING: This episode includes descriptions of racially-motivated violence.
Zach Roberts is a photo and video journalist whose work has been published on the cover of the New York Daily News, The Observer, The Guardian and on the inside of the New York Times, TheNation.com, Al Jazeera, Washington Post, Buzzfeed and Newsweek, among others.
For the past 10 years, Zach's been on the trail covering social movements, investigating election theft and corporate crime, and most recently tracking white extremism.
Some notable events and stories he's covered are Ferguson, Occupy Wall Street, the Unite the Right Rally in Charlottesville, and over a dozen different Trump rallies. Zach has been beaten and trampled at Occupy, arrested, and had guns pointed at him in Ferguson and Charlottesville.
During our conversation we cover:
His experience with Bloomberg's NYPD during Occupy Wall Street, the legacy of that movement, how the media fails to cover protests correctly, Zach's breakup with Ralph Nader, his experience documenting the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, his photos of a brutal beating committed by white extremists, which contributed to a number of convictions, how the police completely failed to protect and serve in Charlottesville, the experience of covering white extremist groups, how the police have changed since Trump took office, how the media ignores stories that actually matter, the almost massacre in Richmond Virginia, white nationalist killings that aren't classified as such, and how you can be an effective anti-fascist.
You can find Zach on Twitter: @ZDRoberts and support his Patreon here: https://www.patreon.com/zdroberts. His portfolio can be found on his website: https://www.zdroberts.com/
You can find me on Twitter: @GarrisonLovely and email the show at mostinterestingpeople27 [at] gmail [dot] com
Show notes:
Greg Palastâs work
15 Years Ago, Protesters Took Over NYC During 2004 Republican National Convention
The Problem with âBroken Windowsâ Policing
Bloombergâs disgraceful eviction of Occupy Wall Street
Video: NYPD Uses Pepper Spray, Force On Wall Street Occupiers
Occupy Wall Streetâs Legacy Runs Deeper Than You Think
Hunting Season on Voters Opens with Georgia & Wisconsin Purges Mass Registration Cancellations ordered by Courts
Larry Summers and the Secret âEnd-Gameâ Memo
Obamaâs Lost Army
Why Is the U.S. Green Party So Irrelevant?
Zachâs coverage of Unite the Right at Charlottesville
The Significance of J20
A New Face of White Supremacy: Plots Expose Danger of the âBaseâ
https://first-vigil.com/
How Stephen Miller Manipulates Donald Trump to Further His Immigration Obsession
The Making of a YouTube Radical
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Malaika Jabali is an attorney, activist, and writer based in New York. She is a contributing writer to Essence Magazine and a frequent contributor to the Guardian. Her work also appears in Current Affairs, Jacobin, the Intercept and elsewhere. Malaika is my first returning guest, and I was very happy to have her back. Since we last spoke, she has written extensively about the 2020 candidates and deepened the reporting that began with her excellent Current Affairs feature The Color of Economic Anxiety. That article won the award for best General Feature from the New York Association of Black Journalists. Last week, Malaika released her first film, Left Out, which challenges many of the assumptions about what working class midwesterners want out of their politics. The 8 minute film is available for free on YouTube and well worth your time. We discuss it as well as:
How economic anxiety can depress voter turnout, the underrated importance of people who voted for Obama but didnât turn out in 2016, assumptions made about midwesterners, the myth of the moderate Democrat, Malaika's advice for 2020 candidates, the lack of diversity in early primary states and how it impacts the nominating process, why black voters don't like Pete Buttigieg, Joe Biden's implosion, Bernie's campaign and rhetoric around race, whether Bernie is a class reductionist, how he could be better at speaking to the intersections of race and class, identity politics as it was originally conceived and how it has been misappropriated, the false choice between emphasizing identity based oppression and solidarity, and the lack of representation in socialist groups like the DSA.
You can find Malaika on Twitter: @MalaikaJabali and me: @GarrisonLovely
Iâve also created an email address for the show. I welcome any feedback, guest ideas, or just a hello at mostinterestingpeople27 [at] gmail [dot] com
Show notes:
Malaikaâs work:
The Color of Economic Anxiety
bit.ly/LeftOut2020
Pete Buttigieg has a race problem. So does the Democratic party
Other links:
Economic anxiety vs racial resentment:
Time to Kill the Zombie Argument: Another Study Shows Trump Won Because of Racial Anxieties â Not Economic Distress
No, It Wasnât Just Racism
The Missing Obama Millions
For elites, politics is driven by ideology. For voters, itâs not.
Black Futures Lab Census
Most Iowa Democratic caucus-goers support a single-payer health-care plan
Experiments show this is the best way to win campaigns. But is anyone actually doing it?
How Bernie Sanders Evolved on Criminal Justice Reform
Joe Biden: âI love kids jumping on my lapâ
Phillip Agnew's 'With These Hands' â Powerful Bernie Rally Moment
The force of Operation POWER
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Meagan Day is a staff writer at Jacobin magazine. Her work has also appeared in The New York Times, The Guardian, Vox, Mother Jones, The Week, The Baffler, In These Times, n+1, and elsewhere. Her nonfiction book Maximum Sunlight was excerpted in the Best American Nonrequired Reading 2017. She has co-authored a book with Micah Uetricht called Bigger than Bernie: How We Go from the Sanders Campaign to Democratic Socialism. Look for it in late April.
Today, we make the case for Bernie Sanders: why he is the most electable candidate and the one we should be most excited about. We dig into the data and the theory behind why a Bernie nomination would likely lead to a Bernie presidency. We also discuss why the case for Joe Bidenâs electability falls apart and address some of the strongest arguments against Bernie.
We spend the first 13 or so minutes discussing the allegation that Bernie told Elizabeth Warren that a woman couldnât win the presidency. If youâre familiar with this dispute, feel free to skip ahead.
If this episode inspires you, you can get involved by visiting berniesanders.com/volunteer. Of course you can also make a donation at berniesanders.com. There is also the BERN app which helps you build grassroot support among your friends and family. Find the app at app.berniesanders.com
Weâre entering the most critical period of the Democratic primary. The winner of the Iowa caucus on February 3rd is likely to become the Democratic nominee, so if youâve been on the sidelines, nowâs the best time to get involved.
Show notes:
Meagan's writing:
How an Anti-Sexist Candidate Got Smeared as Sexist
Bernie Is the Candidate Who Can Beat Trump. Hereâs Why.
Bernie Sanders Believes in Mass Politics â Something the New York Times Canât Wrap Their Minds Around
Social Security and Medicare Are Not Safe With Joe Biden
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Ben Burgis is a philosopher and logician who lectures at Rutgers University. He has a segment on the Michael Brooks Show called the Debunk and writes a weekly column for Jacobin magazine. We spend most of the show talking about his book Give Them an Argument: Logic for the Left, which challenges the left to take logic more seriously.
Benâs Twitter: https://twitter.com/benburgis?lang=en
And Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/benburgis
We also discuss:
The aesthetic of reason being adopted to defend bad arguments, why the left needs to make better arguments for their positions, the limits of logic in persuading people whose material interest differ from ours, why left principles for redistribution don't stop at our borders, conflict vs mistake theory in explaining the motivations of our political opponents, and where each theory may apply, the importance of interpreting our allies' arguments charitably, Ben's thoughts on moral philosophy, why tankies are bad utilitarians, double standards for Marx vs other problematic philosophers from history, Jeremy Benthamâs good takes, state monopoly on violence and police reforms, where Ben disagrees with the left, the problems with a radically empirical worldview, whether utilitarianism takes you to implausible places, and how to balance epistemic humility with the need to beat confident bullshitters.
Links:
Conflict vs Mistake Theory
Dark Money
Life expectancy going up under mao
Deconstructing the âFerguson Effectâ (Note: I think the evidence for this is more mixed than I thought at the time of the interview)
The Case for Disarming America's Police Force
NEW YORK CITY VOTERS MAY EXPAND POWER OF CIVILIAN REVIEW BOARD, ALLOWING IT TO INVESTIGATE POLICE WHO LIE
Moral Tribes
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Marcus Davis is the co-founder and lead researcher at Rethink Priorities, a nonprofit conducting foundational research on neglected causes within the Effective Altruism movement. Marcus also co-founded Charity Entrepreneurship and Charity Science Health. Rethink Priorities has put out a lot of impactful research on topics like nuclear war, invertebrate sentience, and ballot initiatives, in addition to taking on the crucial task of conduc ing the annual Effective Altruism survey. Theyâve managed to do a lot with an annual budget of less than half a million dollars and are accepting donations. Residents in the US, UK, Canada, Germany and Switzerland can make tax-deductible donations here: https://www.rethinkpriorities.org/donate
We discuss:
Rethink Prioritiesâ goals, how much we should worry about nuclear war, fish stocking, the promise of ballot measures for passing progressive policies and animal welfare protections, recent ballot measures on psychedelic decriminalization, determining the sentience of animals, whether octopuses are aliens, who makes up the Effective Altruism movement, how to reach people who aren't young STEM grads, how less effective interventions can still be improvements over the status quo, the ways in which EA doesn't reflect society at large and steps that could be taken to rectify that, and what Rethink Priorities can do with your money
Show notes:
Luisa Rodriguezâs series on nuclear war
The Doomsday Machine by Daniel Ellsberg
Rethink Prioritiesâ presentation on ballot initiatives
Psychedelic ballot initiatives
Nagelâs paper âWhat Is It Like to Be a Batâ
Invertebrate Sentience Table
David Foster Wallaceâs essay âConsider the Lobsterâ
Other Minds by Peter Godfrey-Smith
Octopuses may be aliens: A controversial study has a new spin on the otherworldliness of the octopus
Results of the 2018 EA survey
Article on GiveDirectlyâs disaster relief program: Googleâs unusual plan for disaster relief: just give survivors money
Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People
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Rob Scott is the Executive Director of the Cornell Prison Education Program (CPEP), which he has led since 2013. Under his leadership CPEP has expanded operations from one to four prisons and now serves over 200 incarcerated students. Rob also helped form state and national coalitions for higher education in prisons. In 2016, he was recognized as one of 10 White House âChampions of Changeâ for his work with CPEP.
In college, I co-founded the Prison Reform and Education Project (PREP) and got to know Rob, who eventually served as our faculty adviser. As we discuss, I was also a volunteer teaching assistant with CPEP. Rob was one of the first people who came to mind when I conceived of this podcast, but has been a little busy being a new father the past few months, so this conversation was a long time coming.
We discuss:
How Rob got started in prison education, how prison education has gone from boot-strapped projects done in the shadows to flagship programs supported by major universities, how the era of Pell grants in prisons was not all it's cracked up to be, how CPEP works, why crime may have declined, the power of language in our self concept, the experience of teaching in prison, a better definition of crime, the limitations of attempting to change oppressive institutions from the inside, the tenuous state of Pell grants for incarcerated people, Rob's complicated stance on prison abolition, the small âdâ democratic origins of incarceration as punishment, and restorative justice and alternatives to incarceration.
Rob is an incredibly thoughtful and selfless guy, and his opinions consistently surprise me. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
Links:
Reasonable Doubt: A New Look at Whether Prison Growth Cuts Crime
My very angry tweet thread about Bret Stephensâs stupid take on the 1994 Crime Bill
Games Criminals Play: How You Can Profit by Knowing Them
Shane Bauerâs article: My four months as a private prison guard
Shane's book: American Prison
Foucaultâs book Discipline and Punish
Snopes: the somewhat true story comparing Felicity Huffmanâs 14 day sentence to a homeless womanâs 5 year sentence for purportedly lying to get her kid into a better public school
NPR: Former Physician at Rikers Island Exposes Health Risks of Incarceration
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AndrĂ©s GĂłmez Emilsson is the Director of Research at the Qualia Research Institute (QRI). QRI aims to systematize the study of consciousness, to do to consciousness what chemistry did for alchemy. He holds a masterâs degree in computational psychology and an undergraduate degree in symbolic systems from Stanford University, where he co-founded the Stanford Transhumanist Association.
This is a pretty wild episode touching on some of the most important and mind-bending ideas Iâve ever encountered, centered around a single question: why can't we be happy all the time?
We get into some pretty wacky territory but I think Andrés does a good job of making this approachable to somebody who has never encountered these ideas before.
We use the term intuition pump a few times, this is a word coined by the philosopher Daniel Dennett to describe a thought experiment that helps the thinker use their intuition to develop an answer to a problem.
We cover:
AndrĂ©sâs life project to overcome all the mechanisms that prevent us from being happy all the time, the hedonic treadmill, the promise of anti-tolerance drugs, the influence of genetics on our ability to be happy, how electric stimulation of the brain doesnât lead to tolerance the way drugs do, wireheading done right and wrong, three types of euphoria, the social gulf between Bay Area life-optimizers and everyone else, negative utilitarianism, the worst and best experiences humans have, the therapeutic and scientific potential for 5-meo-dmt, psychedelics as Effective Altruismâs cause X, the best way to use ibogaine for treating opiate addiction, a better approach to using opiates for pain management, and why people report wacky new beliefs after ego dissolving psychedelic experiences
Links:
Simon and Garfunkel song: Richard Cory
AndrĂ©sâs article: Wireheading Done Right: Stay Positive Without Going Insane
Book excerpt describing electrodes placed in the brains of mental patients in the 1950s: The Orgasmic Brain
84% of drug users who report a bad trip say they benefited from the experience
NYMag: Psychedelic Mushrooms Cured My Cluster Headaches
NY Public Radio interview on how Harry Anslinger started the war on drugs
The Qualia Research Institute (QRI)
QRI executive director Mike Johnsonâs blog: Opentheory.net
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