Episodes
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When Dr Luke Wilson reached out to me with a copy of his book, I was struck by the most obvious thing in the world - I'm the ex-wife of a gay conversion therapy survivor but I've never had someone on the podcast who could actually talk in depth about that very thing. I guess it was too close to home. But its time. We need to move from representation to meaningful change, and that means understanding on a deep and nuanced level that sexual orientation and gender identity change efforts aren't always what you think they are. This episode hits on some big topics. Mental health, sexuality, genocide. Look after yourself as you listen. And remember you can call helplines if you need. In Australia, Lifeline is 13 11 14 and Qlife is 1800 184 527. In America, you can call 988. This is important stuff for all of us. But if its you, its REALLY important. There are safe hands to catch you as you recover. The long-ass URL for Dr Luke's book, Shame-Sex Attraction is as follows: https://www.amazon.com.au/Shame-Sex-Attraction-Survivors-Stories-Conversion-ebook/dp/B0D1S6SHC8/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.68eQVaWIgXB4gJREAz4RVPbwpkkCcVmdfJlm2WsT94Mnu2tfgUqzMhIVzDdME3t13Eth7h1oBh8slz8hQdk24wKq0TW4WLFIA3DIhDNVaV4.FxuRjpQ7Xp9MBxN-GqDYKhC_ZWqJX3TOy0nUcAmUzl4&dib_tag=se&keywords=shame-sex+attraction&qid=1733923623&sr=8-1 Luke's social media handles are as follows. Instagram: @lukeslamdunkwilsonThreads: @lukeslamdunkwilsonBluesky: @lukeslamdunkwilson.bsky.socialTwitter/X: @wilson_fwLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucas-wilson-2a0753b1/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/luke.wilson.96
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In this episode of "The Pipelines" series, we meet Jane Kennedy. While she is now a religious trauma therapist and co-founder of the Religious Trauma Collective in Australia (which compiles resources and religious trauma-informed therapists for those of us who are recovering), she was once a youth leader and church planter. In this episode, Jane and I talk about some of the big themes that have emerged in her walk into and out of church, and the things that pop up in therapy a lot: from white saviourism, to dissociation, body awareness, "the father heart of God" and other recruitment tactics. Jane's calm presence and hard-won wisdom makes this episode a lot more relaxing than it could be! Find her at: on Substack at https://jane748.substack.com
and on Instagram at @janekennedycounselling
Find me at: clareheathmcivor.substack.com and on instagram at @unchurchablepod or @clare_heathmcivor
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Missing episodes?
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In an episode that was recorded two days after the Trump victory, and less than 200 days from the next Australian Federal Election, this episode could not be more important or timely. In it, I chat to Blake Chastain, who launched the Exvangelical Podcast back in 2016 as he talks about his new book "Exvangelical and Beyond: How American Christianity Went Radical and the Movement That's Fighting Back."
We have long known that, where America goes religiously and politically, the western world tends to follow. In line with this, strains of Christian Nationalism, even white Christian nationalism, and other forms of fringe and extreme right-wing politics has spiked both here and overseas. Its one to pay attention to. Make sure you give it a listen. And if you're in Australia in the political scene, make sure you take the warnings and the advice seriously. www.blakechastain.com
https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/747796/exvangelical-and-beyond-by-blake-chastain/
Instagram @brchastian_
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You know I like to get existential. This time last year, I sat down with author and academic, William/Bill Egginton to talk about his book, "The Rigor of Angels." I'd been contacted by his publicist and was intrigued about the book and what it might offer exvangelicals who are reinventing themselves and might not know anything about poetry, philosophy, and quantum mechanics, much less the meaning of the Universe. It was too good a conversation to let sit in the archives after my year of hiatus. Since our chat, his book has won some awards including New York Times and New Yorker book of the year. You'll love it. And I hope you love this chat. Find out more here https://www.williamegginton.com/ or here https://www.amazon.com.au/Rigor-Angels-Heisenberg-Ultimate-Reality/dp/0593316304
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Its quite a journey to go from eldest pastors kid, with full worship leader, Sunday school teacher, 'dating revelation' adherent and homeschool survivor to forest walking animistic spiritualist who runs womens circles. But that's Jess Manusama. She's a breath of fresh air. She runs the insta account @the.connectedself and the web page www.theconnectedself.com.au If you're one of those people who lost touch with themself, their sense of embodiment, the right to own your story and feel it, give her a follow. If you want to work with her in womens circles, deconstructors circles, or one to one mentoring, head over to her socials or website. Jess is such a soothing and non-judgemental presence, with a sense of humour but an ability to create and hold space where we connect with the medicine within. All outside of dogma. Because the last thing we need as we deconstruct is more of that.
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Unchurchable is back from a long hiatus, and kicking off "The Pipelines" series is the incredible R. Scott Okamoto. Scott was a teacher at a Christian college when his deconstruction started. Rather than solidifying a waning faith, Scott got the same Sunday School answers to life's big questions. Join us as we talk about Zionism, white supremacy, the chinks in the armour of Biblical literacy, and finally, his journey into authorhood and podcaster-ness. Find Scott hosting the "Horny Chapel" and "Chapel Probation" podcasts, as well as his instagram (@rsokamoto) and Twittere (@rsokamoto) for more good stuff!
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Hey all! Yes, I know I disappeared. But I'm back, and so is unchurchable. If you've got ten minutes, have a listen to this teaser and, if you feel like it, slide into my DM's on twitter (@clare_mcivor) or on Instagram @unchurchablepod or @clare_heathmcivor) to let me know your thoughts. This season is going to get nerdy! Go deeper into themes rather than focusing solely on survival stories, and talk about the pipelines. "The pipelines?", you say... "What do you mean by that?" Have a listen and find out
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In this months episode, the lovely, courageous, intelligent Ronna Detrick joins me to talk about her newly-released book "Rewriting Eve." It started from a simple place: in seminary, when the guys translated a passage of scripture, it came out vastly different to how the women's translations came out. The subjects and verbs were correct. But the nuance, the subtext, the angle - all vastly different. And so Ronna set about rewriting Eve (and other Biblical women). The result is powerful insight into what happens when we let women tell their own stories. I'll admit this one hit heavy for me. After all, I am a woman who is only just learning to write her own story. I suspect many Exvangelical women may feel the same. We've been called crazy, headstrong, unstable, divisive, emotional, Jezebelic and all sorts. But maybe that was patriarchy writing our stories for us. Find out more about Ronna on Insta, FB or here https://ronnadetrick.com
And enjoy the episode
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This is a "Listen hard" kind of episode. What do conspiracy theories, anti-semitic handbooks, lizard people, space lasers, Qanon, 5G towers and cults have in common? It's mindboggling how the checkered history of Evangelicalism is imbued with anti-semitism and white supremacy. I'm not sure why I'm surprised, when evangelicalism itself is a very whitewashed sort of reality. This episode talks about how totalitarianism, conspiracy theories and cults are built on a very similar, very toxic sort of foundation. Find Cynane on Instagram - @taking.off.the.tinfoil.hat - or on the interwebs where you can find her booklist - www.takingoffthetinfoilhat.com
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In this episode, the voices from the "I was a teenage fundamentalist" podcast join me to talk about the things they've learned along the way as exvangelicals, as people, as podcast hosts and community builders...and as two guys who had to learn to call bullshit sometimes. Troy Waller and Brian McDowell take an irreverent walk through their lives and talk about the commonalities we all seem to share when it comes to our individual journeys post-church. "I was a teenage fundamentalist" is an Australian-based deconstruction podcast and community that is making waves, and its a treat to have another couple of Aussie accents in my own corner of the interwebs. If you want to listen or subscribe to their pod, its here https://open.spotify.com/show/5tbYeCgmIuYwZBiZ9yGKbw?si=31d555756c5d491f and my episode is here https://open.spotify.com/episode/24L6bYEQEtQ0yQiF1FeLwq?si=db432056f890453e
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Planetshakers, politics, porn scandals, branch stacking, coercive control, puppy dogs and exvangelical life - this episode has it all. Brent Hodgson is a political commentator, campaign data guy and marketing guru who provides immense insight into the trends and tendencies in the Australian political scene. It just also happens that is ex-Planet-shakers and watched from the pews as the Australian megachurch faced down a scandal for the history books. In this episode, Brent shares his insights into the potential demise of the Australian Liberal Party following right-wing infiltration (thanks dominionists and faltering micro parties). If you're an Aussie and you're lost in the wind as to what is going on here, or if you're from overseas and wondering what the political situation is over here - settle in with a cuppa. This episode has all the tea
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It was hard to know what to call this one. Emma Ocean is, pun intended, an ocean of wisdom based on the lived experience of escaping toxic religion and the qualified experience of a psychologist with a bit of mysticism, cosmetology, philosophy and shadow-working brilliance thrown in. It was a conversation full of light-bulb moments for me as we talked about the healing journey, the scintilla or spark of that universal light in all of us, and some gentle wisdom for people from all spaces in deconstruction as we wade through the work of healing and finding ourselves. Oh, and there are Julia Roberts references in here too.
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Angela Herrington is a deconstruction coach. What exactly is that? She's not going to tell you, because every deconstruction journey is different. But one thing is for sure, we all need someone in our corner who will hold space for us, refuse to embody any sort of control or coerciveness, and who can help us understand that deconstruction is as much about grief and loss as it is about anything else. Join us as we talk about all the things, and find Angela on the interwebs at www.angelajherrington.com
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This session lead off with me forgetting to cancel the podcast, dropping the kids off at school late, and turning up to do an interview unprepared, unshowered, and without a stitch of makeup. For reference, Kit Kennedy is glam af and never unprepared. But Andrew lead off with "if it aint messy it aint worth it," and we were friends straight away. Actually, what I felt from my conversation with Andrew was safety...and thats what he offers people who are dipping their toes into the uncertain waters of deconstruction, or who are trying to hold onto faith in a way that feels safe. Its a great sesh. Enjoy
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In the first episode of unchurchable for 2022, I chat with Becki from "Also Your Daughters" on Instagram. Her's is a brand of deconstruction that I so badly needed to witness: a woman calling things what they are and doing it with humor. It's a strange muscle to have to learn to flex when you've been told that emotions like anger, assertiveness or blunt honesty are not feminine or acceptable. Guess what! They are both! In this chat, we talk about boundaries, rage humour, feminism, and life in general - and I confess I laughed entirely too much in this episode because I was perhaps a bit excited to be back, and perhaps a bit nervous to be in the interviewers chair after so long out of it! This conversation is as much about finding your resolve and your supportive community as it is finding your voice and your right to exist in the unique space you want to, rather than the role you were cast in but never wanted. Enjoy!
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A big part of deconstruction is re-looking at anti-feminist theology, purity culture and the way these impacted attitudes to women, sexuality, sensuality and pleasure. Now look, I'll be straight up and say I'm only just learning to be comfortable talking about it and I still feel a bit heretical thinking that maybe its okay to be sex-positive and still call myself a sorta-kinda-okay-Jesus post-Christian something something. To this end, this episode has been positively medicinal for me, as Reverend Doctor Beverley Dale takes us inside the Bible and shows us that the Bible has been shown to us in a way that sanitises it, but pleasure, sexuality and sensuality are there in black (and red) and white. Certainly not contraband like so many of us have been taught.
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The wonderful Meg Cowan has been on my list of interviewees for a while - a fellow Southern Hemisphere girl from across the ditch in New Zealand. Her work as a sex and intimacy coach has seen Meg in the long grass of helping purity culture survivors reclaim and heal their relationship with their bodies. This conversation was one we had a couple of goes at, and I promise you its worth a listen. It goes without saying that this episode carries a content warning. But don't all the good tings in life. Enjoy
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I'm more than happy to admit it: I'll happily talk about a lot of things in the deconstruction space, but sin hasn't been one of them. Its been too big of a concept - too scary even. It's also a confusing one when you delve into it. If God is love, why are we all "born with a sin nature" that means we get dropped into a lake of fire for eternity unless we belief the right thing, say the magic words and never do wrong. Bit of a high bar wouldn't you say? Bit unloving maybe? Steven Denler, the man behind TAP Theology has been doing some serious work on this and I'm so glad he took a moment to stop by the pod and talk about it. I can tell you now: the sin means something completely different to me now. And somehow, God is kinder too. I'm down with that. Get ready for the most philosophically heavy chat I've had in a while. Enjoy!
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This is one of those fortuitous internet meetings where you go "Hey! This person is interesting! I'm gunna interview them." Jordan White and I began talking on instagram about parenting post deconstruction when I realised this guy had managed to do something I had failed miserably at: he held on to music when he left church. To this day, a long time after leaving church, I find it too emotionally fraught to sit down at the piano and do what used to come so easily. I used to play, sing, compose and generally move the emotion that would otherwise stagnate and ulcerate. So I wanted to talk - how do you hold onto something that had been completely tied up with something you no longer identify with. As it turned out, the conversation spanned a whole lot more than this. I know you'll enjoy it.
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She married "the one God sent." Like so many of us, she did so without knowing fully what she was getting into. When the relationship became abusive, she sought help inside the church but what she found was advice tantamount to entrapping her in what she calls "church sanctioned domestic abuse. Sadly, Tia Levings story is unlikely to be the only one of its kind, but unlike so many others, Tia found the courage to get herself and her five kids out of that situation. Years on, she is thriving - in love, in life, and in parenthood beyond religious trauma and domestic abuse. Its a story of hope and Tia's gentle wisdom covers could indeed be life-saving. There is life after, and it is so worth pursuing.
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