Episodios

  • Does Fedgroup think differently about preserving and growing wealth for their clients? Perhaps their position as one of the largest beekeepers in the country answers that question. In this show, Michael Field (General Manager: Investments) joined me to unpack the way Fedgroup thinks about investing.

    The JSE has a small (and shrinking) pool of assets being chased by deep pools of capital. Alternative assets can offer inflation protection, diversification and stability in a portfolio that still includes exposure to traditional asset classes like equities and bonds.

    After all, when the market can throw a lot of red numbers at you on your brokerage account in a tough year, having assets that are focused on stability and inflation protection can make all the difference.

    For those who prefer to read, the full transcript of the show is available further down.

    And remember, this podcast is for informational purposes only. Nothing in here should be taken as advice. Fedgroup Financial Holdings (Pty) Ltd is a licensed controlling company and companies within the group are authorised FSPs. Find out more about Fedgroup here.

  • With volatility as the theme in markets in a year of elections, it's important to keep your head as an equity investor. Take a long-term view and let the market do its job.

    Easier said than done, of course.

    To assist with practical tips and important insights into key principles in investing (ranging from more basic concepts through to advanced topics like cyclically-adjusted P/E ratios), Kingsley Williams (Chief Investment Officer at Satrix)* joined The Finance Ghost on this podcast.

    The only free lunch in investing is diversification. This podcast will help you understand why, brought to you by Satrix.

    There’s so much to listen to in this podcast, underpinned by Satrix’s commitment to South African investor education. To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    *Satrix is a division of Sanlam Investment Management

     

    Disclaimer

    Satrix Investments (Pty) Ltd is an approved FSP in terms of the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act (FAIS). The information does not constitute advice as contemplated in FAIS. Use or rely on this information at your own risk. Consult your Financial Adviser before making an investment decision.

    Satrix Managers (RF) (Pty) Ltd (Satrix) is a registered and approved Manager in Collective Investment Schemes in Securities.

    While every effort has been made to ensure the reasonableness and accuracy of the information contained in this document (“the information”), the FSPs, their shareholders, subsidiaries, clients, agents, officers and employees do not make any representations or warranties regarding the accuracy or suitability of the information and shall not be held responsible and disclaim all liability for any loss, liability and damage whatsoever suffered as a result of or which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any use of or reliance upon the information. 

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  • Tivon Loubser is all about chasing the sun - and generating investment returns from solar projects. Thanks to South Africa's ongoing need for renewable energy projects of every size, there are tax benefits available to investors for doing this. We unpack the opportunity in this podcast.

    The podcast is brought to you by Twelve B Fund Managers, a private equity fund entitling tax payers to invest in a portfolio of renewable energy generating assets and benefit from the recently gazetted 125% 12BA wear and tear allowance. After successfully closing Fund I, and deploying all the raised capital in the previous financial year, Twelve B Fund II is open for investment. The fund will close at the earlier of R100m or 30 June 2024.

    Please do your own research, discuss this with your independent financial advisor, and if you would like to set up a meeting with the Twelve B team, or would like more information, visit the Twelve B or Grovest websites.

    Twelve B Fund Managers (Pty) Ltd is an approved juristic representative of Volantis Capital Proprietary Limited, an Authorised Financial Services Provider FSP No 49836.

  • The world is increasingly focusing on private market opportunities and the benefits that they bring to a portfolio strategy. Whether equity or credit in nature, there are reasons to seriously consider the inclusion of private assets in a wealth strategy.

    In this podcast, Reginald Labuschagne (Head of Product and Strategy at Sanlam Private Wealth) and Harris Gorre (Partner at Grovepoint Investment Management) bring considerable experience to a discussion on private investment strategies and where they can be used in client portfolios.

    You can connect with Reginald on LinkedIn here. More information on Sanlam Private Wealth can be found here.

    More information on Grovepoint Investment Management (including the GIM Liquid Private Credit shares listed on the JSE: GIMPLC) can be found on the group website here.

    Sanlam Private Wealth (Pty) Ltd, registration number 2000/023234/07, is a licensed Financial Services Provider (FSP 37473), a registered Credit Provider (NCRCP1867) and a member of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange ('SPW').

    Nothing in this podcast should be taken as advice. You must always do your own research on opportunities and speak to your financial advisor.

  • When planning your wealth creation journey, it helps to understand all the tools available in the toolbox. Bond ETFs remain poorly understood by many investors, leading to portfolio strategies that don’t include fixed income investments.

    In this podcast with Siyabulela Nomoyi of Satrix*, we put the spotlight on bond ETFs. We covered topics like the relationship between interest rates and capital values, the way in which these ETFs add value to a portfolio and the macroeconomic conditions that can lead to good outcomes here.

    There’s so much to listen to in this podcast, underpinned by Satrix’s commitment to South African investor education. To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    *Satrix is a division of Sanlam Investment Management

    (this article was first published here)

  • The Global Accelerator offers 100% capital protection in dollars at maturity after five years, while giving exposure to global equity indices.

    To explain how it all works, Japie Lubbe of Investec Structured Products joined me on this podcast and covered the following topics:

    The design of the underlying equity basketThe use of “insurance” in an equity portfolio and how this can be understood in the context of more familiar concepts like car and home insuranceThe upside of the Global Accelerator, both on an accelerated basis and a capped basisThe payoff of this product vs. buying an ETF that tracks a similar equity index, with specific reference to how dividends workBuilding blocks of the Global Accelerator in terms of company structure and the various instruments usedFees involved and how they compare to unit trustsThe liquidity available over the five-year periodHow a debt instrument is used to provide capital protection and understanding the credit risk associated with this debt instrument.

    Applications close 21 May 2024.

    As always you must do your own research and speak to your financial advisor before investing in a product like this. You can find all the information you need on the Investec website at this link.

  • There’s a lot more to blockchain technology than just the latest Bitcoin or Ether price. After the boom of NFTs and all kinds of other things during the pandemic, things clearly cooled off in this space - and for the better. In the meantime, corporates and entrepreneurs are busy in the background on tokenisation of assets to create digital assets.

    In a digital economy, digital assets are important.

    The Fintech space is more widely understood. But again, it goes beyond just a payments solution on your wrist or your phone. As the world becomes increasingly cashless, there’s a lot of innovation in the financial space.

    To unpack these areas in more detail and to understand how use cases are developing, I was joined by Wiehann Olivier (Partner and Head of Fintech & Digital Assets at Mazars) and Mia Pieterse (Partner and Fintech Specialist at Mazars).

    You can connect with Wiehann on LinkedIn at this link and Mia on LinkedIn at this link.

    About Mazars

    Mazars is an internationally integrated partnership, specialising in audit, accountancy, advisory and tax services. Operating in over 100 countries and territories around the world, they draw on the expertise of more than 50,000 professionals - 33,000 in Mazars' integrated partnership and 17,000 via the Mazars North America Alliance - to assist clients of all sizes at every stage in their development.

    To find out more about Mazars in South Africa, visit:

    Website: www.mazars.co.za

    Facebook: MazarsSouthAfrica

    X: @Mazars_SA

    LinkedIn: Mazars in South Africa

     

  • Nico Katzke of Satrix* returns to Ghost Stories to talk about the latest buzzword of the moment: Artificial Intelligence (AI). This topic has been dominating market headlines for a while now and it poses both opportunities and risks.

    In this podcast, we discuss:

    The way in which some people run towards hype and others run in the opposite direction – talking to the different investor personalities in the market.Whether the development of cloud computing and SaaS can teach us anything about the risk of being too sceptical about AI.The energy demands of AI and what this could mean for renewable energy.What AI technology is and what it is not – and why the term may well be an example of great marketing more than anything else.Our preferred ways to get exposure to this theme in our portfolios.

    There’s so much to listen to in this podcast, underpinned by Satrix’s commitment to South African investor education. To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    *Satrix is a division of Sanlam Investment Management

    (this article was first published here)

  • Brian McMillan of the Structured Products team at Investec is back on Ghost Stories, this time to talk about the Investec Nikkei 225 Autocall.

    This product is designed to give investors exposure to the Nikkei 225 index over a period of up to five years with an enhanced return of up to 17% per annum in ZAR or 11.5% per annum in USD. Importantly, there is 100% capital protection provided the index does not drop by more than 30%.

    To help you understand this opportunity, the topics covered include:

    The history of the Nikkei 225 over the past three decades and how it became ignored by investors, with the narrative having improved significantly in recent times.Reasons why the Nikkei 225 could be a compelling investment going forward.The structure of an “autocall” product and exactly how it works over the time period of the instrument.The way the upside works on this instrument, with a fixed return provided the index closes above the starting level.The underlying credit risk in the instrument.The liquidity in the note and the extent to which it is tradeable during the term.The minimum investment amount required and how the fees work.Confirmation of the types of investors allowed to participate.

    The investment tranche is available until the 5th of April 2024.

    As always you must do your own research and speak to your financial advisor before investing in a product like this. You can find all the information you need on the Investec website at this link.

  • In this episode of Ghost Stories, Siyabulela Nomoyi returned to the platform once more to talk about two exciting product launches at Satrix.

    Of course, The Finance Ghost couldn’t resist kicking off the show with a question around whether Siya stuck to his festive season savings goals that were discussed at the end of 2023 in a previous episode!

    Moving on to all things ETF related, topics of discussion included:

    How Satrix approaches the product design process.An overview of the Satrix MSCI ACWI Feeder ETF and specifically how it differs from the MSCI World Index in giving efficient exposure to developed and emerging markets.An overview of the Satrix JSE Global Equity ETF and how this gives investors an opportunity to tilt their portfolios towards locally-listed companies with more international exposure.Related to the Satrix JSE Global Equity ETF, an important discussion on JSE index harmonisation.Variability in ETF costs and what the building blocks of those costs are.

    There’s so much in here, underpinned by Satrix’s commitment to South African investor education. To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    Disclosure

    Satrix Investments (Pty) Ltd is an approved FSP in term of the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act (FAIS). The information does not constitute advice as contemplated in FAIS. Use or rely on this information at your own risk. Consult your Financial Adviser before making an investment decision.

    While every effort has been made to ensure the reasonableness and accuracy of the information contained in this podcast (“the information”), the FSP’s, its shareholders, subsidiaries, clients, agents, officers and employees do not make any representations or warranties regarding the accuracy or suitability of the information and shall not be held responsible and disclaims all liability for any loss, liability and damage whatsoever suffered as a result of or which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any use of or reliance upon the information.

  • Deon Lewis (co-founder of Futureneers) and James Rothmann (Projects Director and Tax Innovation Officer at Futureneers) joined The Finance Ghost to talk about the 12BA Renewable Energy Partnership and the opportunity it offers investors for a tax-enhanced investment in solar.

    On this podcast, we talked about topics including:

    The background of Futureneers and the investment track record.The return profile of the solar projects both with and without the tax benefits.The way the tax works further down the line when there’s a potential sale of the project.Whether this opportunity is relatively more attractive for potential investors who are in higher tax brackets.The protections in place for investors.

    For more information on Futureneers and to apply for this opportunity, you can follow this link.

    As always, ensure that you do your own research and consult with your financial advisor. The Finance Ghost has no affiliation with Futureneers or involvement in the underlying investments and does not accept any responsibility for the financial returns. Futureneers is a registered Financial Services Provider (FSP 46996) and registered Section 12J Venture Capital Company.

  • This is a big year for South Africa. Load shedding returned literally straight after the State of the Nation Address, creating a difficult foundation for the Budget Speech. The headlines are full of political activity in the build-up to elections. There's a lot going on.

    Tertius Troost is in the Tax Consulting team at Mazars, so this is a busy month to say the least. He took time away from a hectic February tax diary to share insights as a preview to the Budget Speech.

    Why is this important? Well, as a South African, the Budget Speech directly impacts you in many different ways, ranging from direct changes to your taxes to the way in which your taxes are spent in the country. It's critical to understand the key pressure points for our fiscus.

    You can connect with Tertius on LinkedIn here.

  • Welcome to 2024!

    An investing strategy can only be successful if there is money available to invest. In the first part of this podcast, The Finance Ghost and Duma Mxenge discussed concepts like:

    The value of planning ahead and how this can save money (e.g. when booking holidays – especially to cheaper jurisdictions than South Africa!)The usefulness of sitting with a financial advisor earlier in the year.Dangers of living bonus-to-bonus each year.The reality of middle-class inflation in South Africa and effective double tax.

    After initially bouncing around these ideas, the conversation turned to financial concepts including:

    Different financial needs at different stages of your life – with Duma giving a clear and succinct explanation that we can all relate to, followed up by a discussion on the need to achieve balance in life.The importance of stress-testing interest rates when deciding to take on debt.The financial and practical considerations of renting vs. buying a home.Of critical importance: financial discipline doesn’t mean not having nice things!Why “tax free savings account” is a misleading name and some of the strategies that can be used with these investing accounts.Offshore vs. local strategies and what we can learn from 2023, along with various nuances like the true impact of a strong vs. weak dollar on global tech stocks.The bad habit of South Africans wanting to send money offshore when the rand is at its weakest.

    The podcast ended off with a discussion on the ETFs that should exist – with The Finance Ghost beating the drum once more for the JSE to have a proper retailers index!

    There’s so much in here, underpinned by Satrix’s commitment to South African investor education. To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    Disclosure

    Satrix Investments (Pty) Ltd is an approved FSP in term of the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act (FAIS). The information does not constitute advice as contemplated in FAIS. Use or rely on this information at your own risk. Consult your Financial Adviser before making an investment decision.

    While every effort has been made to ensure the reasonableness and accuracy of the information contained in this podcast (“the information”), the FSP’s, its shareholders, subsidiaries, clients, agents, officers and employees do not make any representations or warranties regarding the accuracy or suitability of the information and shall not be held responsible and disclaims all liability for any loss, liability and damage whatsoever suffered as a result of or which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any use of or reliance upon the information.

  • We are now in December, which is generally a month of spending rather than investing. Of course, it shouldn’t be that way if you have the correct financial plan in place, a topic that Siyabulela Nomoyi (Quantitative Portfolio Manager at Satrix) joined me to discuss.

    We couldn’t resist the opportunity to dig into ETFs as well!

    In the final Ghost Stories podcast with Satrix for 2023, topics covered included:

    The right way to think about saving and investing, particularly in the context of December and January.The benefit of tax-free savings accounts and how interesting they can be with ETFs.The range of equity ETFs, from vanilla products through to factor ETFs.Local vs. offshore and how to play this heading into 2024 as a potentially volatile year in South Africa.The performance of bond ETFs in 2023.Real estate and infrastructure ETFs.The difference between ETF and unit trust structures.

    And just for fun, I also asked Siya what he would choose as his ETF exposure going into 2024.

    There’s so much in here, underpinned by Satrix’s commitment to South African investor education. To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    Disclosure

    Satrix Investments (Pty) Ltd is an approved FSP in term of the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act (FAIS). The information does not constitute advice as contemplated in FAIS. Use or rely on this information at your own risk. Consult your Financial Adviser before making an investment decision.

    While every effort has been made to ensure the reasonableness and accuracy of the information contained in this podcast (“the information”), the FSP’s, its shareholders, subsidiaries, clients, agents, officers and employees do not make any representations or warranties regarding the accuracy or suitability of the information and shall not be held responsible and disclaims all liability for any loss, liability and damage whatsoever suffered as a result of or which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any use of or reliance upon the information.

  • Nico Katzke is no stranger to Ghost Mail readers. He has written several articles in his role at Satrix and has appeared on a number of podcasts with me.

    In this show, there was more of a cross-over with personal finance than usual. The reality is that if you can’t save every month, then you also can’t invest.

    Topics we discussed included:

    Why does it make sense to treat your own financials like corporates do? And why is the concept of an inflection point in your income so important? How does this unlock guilt-free spending, making your discretionary spend so much more enjoyable?How do entrepreneurs differ from salaried employees in how they take risks with their money?Diversification: a concept that goes way beyond just investing.Nico’s core approach of doing things today that have massive impact in 20 years from now: (1) adjust your lifestyle to your savings amount (and not the other way around; and (2) distinguish between saving and investing.Why the greatest risk to investing is not taking enough risk.As difficult as it is to resist temptation, why avoiding over-consumption can make a huge difference to your future, especially when the marginal benefit of buying the new model car / smartphone / whatever is minimal.The huge danger of using debt affordability tests as a target for how much debt you can take on.The benefit of taking a more active role in how your money is invested, particularly focusing on costs.The importance of being willing to ask your financial advisor questions about your investmentsAn overview of the two-pot system that is due for implementation next year.

    There’s so much in here, underpinned by Satrix’s commitment to South African investor education. To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    Disclosure

    Satrix Investments (Pty) Ltd is an approved FSP in term of the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act (FAIS). The information does not constitute advice as contemplated in FAIS. Use or rely on this information at your own risk. Consult your Financial Adviser before making an investment decision.

    While every effort has been made to ensure the reasonableness and accuracy of the information contained in this podcast (“the information”), the FSP’s, its shareholders, subsidiaries, clients, agents, officers and employees do not make any representations or warranties regarding the accuracy or suitability of the information and shall not be held responsible and disclaims all liability for any loss, liability and damage whatsoever suffered as a result of or which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any use of or reliance upon the information.

     

  • Mazars has announced a landmark network with Forvis, creating a top 10 firm in the USA. The CEO of Mazars in South Africa, Anoop Ninan, joined me to unpack why this is important. Of course, I didn’t waste the opportunity to tap into his extensive business knowledge at the same time!

    Topics discussed included:

    An overview of the unique network with Forvis and why this is important in a professional services environment that is highly fragmented in the assurance and related services space.How audit firms try to differentiate themselves in the market, specifically across technology, people and partner-led service.The ownership structure of these audit firms and how that works in this network situation.The impact of this network on existing and prospective South African clients.The Mazars growth strategy in South Africa and the sectors that are seeing significant activity, with reference to the advisory teams in Mazars and the work that they do.The public company vs. private company landscape in South Africa, particularly in the context of an ever-shrinking JSE.An overview of the broader Mazars service offering, including data insights and related services.The impact of greylisting on how we are perceived internationally and the level of foreign direct investment.South Africa’s ongoing positioning as the gateway to Africa and where the “good news” stories are in our economy.

    For more information on the Forvis Mazars network, you can read this article.

  • Nico Katzke of Satrix is a familiar voice to Ghost Mail readers and podcast enthusiasts. He’s back on Ghost Stories, with a fantastic twist halfway through the podcast where we switched roles and he started asking me questions.

    Nico in the hot seat:

    Diversification vs. “diworsification” – a topic always worth revisiting, with commentary on the impact on the market as a whole and an understanding of correlation.The danger of only seeing the highlights reel of an investment journey, masking the impact of taking risky bets that don’t work out.The importance of humility in the market.A famous quote by Warren Buffett that is misused all the time due to it being taken out of context.

    Your favourite ghost in the hot seat:

    My approach to managing cognitive bias.The importance of objectively assessing growth opportunities against the valuation, even for the world’s most exciting companies and brands.Long-term vs. short-term analysis and how this impacts the weighting of price vs. industry fundamentals and management.Personal stories of “the stock that got away” (including the pain of CGT vs. income tax for an individual investor) and the stock that feels like “drunk dialling” an ex.My pick in a Shoprite vs. Pick n Pay debate and how to use common sense when analysing stocks.Where I sit on the value – growth spectrum and the importance of both fundamental and technical analysis.The danger of action bias and the usefulness of higher interest rates that pay you to wait for the right opportunities, making “payday investing” very dangerous in single stocks.The three stocks that I would choose to hold forever.The way to start a journey in analysing companies and making single stock exposure decisions.

    There’s so much in here, underpinned by Satrix’s commitment to South African investor education. To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    Disclosure

    Satrix Investments (Pty) Ltd is an approved FSP in term of the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act (FAIS). The information does not constitute advice as contemplated in FAIS. Use or rely on this information at your own risk. Consult your Financial Adviser before making an investment decision.

    While every effort has been made to ensure the reasonableness and accuracy of the information contained in this podcast (“the information”), the FSP’s, its shareholders, subsidiaries, clients, agents, officers and employees do not make any representations or warranties regarding the accuracy or suitability of the information and shall not be held responsible and disclaims all liability for any loss, liability and damage whatsoever suffered as a result of or which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any use of or reliance upon the information.

     

  • After I wrote critically about the pricing of African Bank’s deal to acquire two businesses out of Sasfin, the company contacted me to discuss the thinking behind the deal in more detail. I was highly impressed with the willingness to engage, especially as African Bank graciously recognised that Ghost Mail’s free-to-read format is only made possible by partners.

    The bank opted to sponsor a podcast appearance by African Bank CEO Kennedy Bungane, who has been in the banking industry for over two decades. As with everything I do, a paid appearance doesn’t impact the independence of my questions and the overall approach to the show.

    With the important disclosures now out of the way, I can give you a taste of what we discussed:

    The important history of African Bank, particularly in the South African context.An overview of what the bank does differently today vs. the previous chapter in African Bank’s life that ended in curatorship.Examples of how the bank is adding customers through partnerships, with an expanded product suite to service these customers.African Bank’s framework for successful acquisitions, ranging from strategic fit through to earnings accretion, execution difficulty, cultural fit and longevity.An overview of the Grindrod Bank and Ubank acquisitions.The client ecosystem strengthened through the Sasfin acquisitions and the synergies with the rest of the group.The extent of talent and systems acquired as part of these deals.The strategy of lowering the cost of equity to unlock more lucrative returns in these businesses.The branding strategy with these acquisitions.

    Of course, the proof of these acquisitions will be in the pudding. I’m grateful to be able to bring you this podcast that gives insights into how corporate M&A works and the type of thinking that goes into these transactions.

  • Structured products have come a long way. From a specialised, exotic investment tool, they are now mainstream, and financial advisers are now more comfortable about investing in them on behalf of clients.

    Having covered the Investec USD S&P 500 Autocall on a previous podcast (Episode 19 of Ghost Stories), we now move on to the Optimal Investment Growth Basket Limited promoted by Investec. This product offers a maximum annualised return in USD of 9.8% per annum over five years, with 100% capital protection at maturity in US dollars. The minimum investment amount is $12,000 or £10,500. This is a limited offer that closes on 24 November 2023. T’s and C’s apply and full details can be found on the Investec website at this link and the brochure can be found here.

    To unpack this opportunity in detail, Japie Lubbe joined The Finance Ghost on this episode of Ghost Stories.

    Topics covered included:

    The importance of global diversification and exposure for South African investors;The strategy of tracking a basket of global indices as opposed to a single index;The methodology used in this instrument to achieve the potential return profile for investors;The look-through credit exposure in the structure;Liquidity in the structure; andHow to invest in the product.
  • The universe of Exchange Traded Funds (ETFs) is broad, offering investors many different ways to invest in the market.

    Not only are there various different sector and weighting methodologies available, but Satrix ETFs offer South African investors a way to make perhaps the biggest decision of all: offshore vs. local exposure.

    As we reflect on ETF performance in 2023, Siyabulela Nomoyi of Satrix joined The Finance Ghost to look at topics like:

    Offshore vs. local performance and the impact of the start date for that analysis, including the currency effect;The importance of understanding the underlying stocks in an ETF and their relative valuations; andRelative performance of local ETFs.

    The Ghost couldn’t help but slip in his ongoing request for a retail sector ETF, an index that the JSE really needs to add to the local market.

    To understand more about ETFs and how they can be used in your portfolio, enjoy this podcast brought to you by Satrix.

    To find out more about SatrixNOW, visit this link>>>

    Disclosure
    Satrix Investments (Pty) Ltd is an approved FSP in term of the Financial Advisory and Intermediary Services Act (FAIS). The information does not constitute advice as contemplated in FAIS. Use or rely on this information at your own risk. Consult your Financial Adviser before making an investment decision.
    While every effort has been made to ensure the reasonableness and accuracy of the information contained in this podcast (“the information”), the FSP’s, its shareholders, subsidiaries, clients, agents, officers and employees do not make any representations or warranties regarding the accuracy or suitability of the information and shall not be held responsible and disclaims all liability for any loss, liability and damage whatsoever suffered as a result of or which may be attributable, directly or indirectly, to any use of or reliance upon the information.