Never Too Old For Adventure: Cruel Tanzania Amoeba, Beating Shyness to Antarctica & Over 500 Days of Walking at 73 yrs 005: Cherry Hamrick

6 oct 2021 · HeadRightOut

00:45:24

Cherry Hamrick exudes positivity and resilience. Her mindset is that of adventure. Every corner of her life, whether work, play, family or vacation is treated as an adventure. At sixty-five, she faced her shyness to travel alone to Antarctica. At seventy-two she was seriously ill in Tanzania, with the sickness known as the 'amoeba'. Yet all she wanted was to climb Kilimanjaro and appreciate running in Africa. At seventy-three, she has now recorded a streak of over 500 consecutive days of walking. A splits extraordinaire, avid runner, kayaker, dancer and traveller with a zest for life, challenges and adventures. You will be reaching for a map and guidebook after listening to Cherry!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:14

Hello, and welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. If you're here for the very first time, welcome! I hope you're here to stay. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen, and I am your host, and I'm here to help introduce the idea of doing something that scares you. To push yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit. Today, in order to take us on this resilience journey a little bit more, I am talking to a very special lady indeed. Her name is Cherry, and she's going to be taking us through her journey of living an adventurous life.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:48

Now, I have to just say here, a little bit of a thing that has been going on with my internet connection, I think it's mine, I'm not sure. But please, please make some allowances for the quality here. Our connection was unstable, and we had been completely disconnected at the start of our chat. Once we were reconnected, it was it was a bit better, and although there was some occasional latency there in the audio, we decided to run with it. So I will have edited out a lot of the long pauses that you get when you have a delay in a call. But hopefully it doesn't completely detract from the conversation, because it was a wonderful conversation that we had.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:26

Cherry shares some awesome advice with us about keeping a positive mindset through tough times, which we all get and how best to deal with those problems and how best to deal with a crisis when it hits, as well. She's a woman of much wisdom and an absolute joy to talk to. So without further ado, let's get into the interview.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:56

Okay, hello, everybody and welcome to the HeadRightOut Podcast. And today I have a very special guest and she is tuning in with us all the way from the United States. Her name is Cherry Hamrick, and I have a wonderful introduction to offer you, before we get right into that interview with Cherry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:15

Cherry Hamrick is based in the United States and was a ballet teacher for twenty years before making a career change into becoming a librarian, for twenty-three years. At fifty. She studied for a master's degree, which enabled her to become a library director, at which point she had the joy and satisfaction of being a major part of building a big new library for her community. She loved the construction part of it so much that she says if she could have had a third career, it would have been to become a construction manager. (I absolutely love that already!)

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:51

Cherry has run on all of the seven continents. She has been in a boat on six of the seven continents. And in addition to working for that master's degree at fifty, she also ran her first marathon. She wore the mantle of race director for twelve years at the library, putting on the Run for Reading and the Jingle Bell 5K for women. She is the vice chair of the Ingham County Parks Board and she's a founding board member of the Friends of Lansing Regional Trails. Although she didn't start marathons until she was fifty, Cherry has now run seven marathons; Bay Shore, Detroit twice (that's running once and race walking it once), Big Sur, China, Chicago and New York. She describes herself as an avid runner, (I'd say!), walker kayaker and has done yoga since she was twelve years old.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:50

Cherry has travelled to Antarctica, despite being shy and not knowing anyone and has undertaken a daily lockdown walk with a friend and never stopped. Current total of those walks is now at over two thousand miles and over five hundred days of walking. She even managed to wear a hole in the bottom of her cast boot that she was wearing for a stress fracture. Cherry's biggest challenge was in 2020. On her final continent, the plan was to Safari for five days, do a partial climb of Mount Kilimanjaro for three days, run a half marathon and then fly home (to rest I assume). That was supposed to be for a total of two weeks with travel time included. Let's say that expedition didn't go quite as planned, despite two years of organizing the trip. And I believe there was another cast boot that became an essential part of Cherry's attire due to another stress fracture this time in her foot and a hellish illness contracted in Tanzania that gradually sucked the life from her and I I believe that also forced her to be hospitalized on her return to the US. I sense that this woman is a determined soul. She is also seventy-three years old. Now she went to set foot on Kili. So let's find out what happened.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:18

Cherry, welcome to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My goodness me, what a tale. What a whole wealth of tales you have there. What hurdles were you faced with when travelling to Africa, because that sounds like it was your biggest challenge, to date at least and that it threw all sorts of things at you what was going on there?

Cherry Hamrick 05:39

It certainly did. The best part of the whole adventure was through the whole thing, all three of us that were on the trip had such a good attitude, which I appreciated from the girls. Not everybody rides in an ambulance in Tanzania, and not everybody experiences coming down the mountain the same way you went up. They were so, so wonderful about just embracing what was happening. I mean, that's part of travel and life, things change quickly, and you have to figure it out.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:13

So what caused you to be in the ambulance?

Cherry Hamrick 06:16

I had somehow, I have a theory, but I'm not sure how, come in contact with the water there. I thought I was really careful. But I think maybe during the tent shower, I was looking up to pull the chain maybe and got some water in my mouth. I don't know. But I got an amoeba is what the doctor there called it and just had (not real pleasant) constant diarrhea, and just no appetite. I tried to cover it up. I didn't want anybody to worry. And I took some anti-diarrhea medicine, which helped the first few days so I could keep going on safari. When it was time to climb, the guide said "how are you feeling" and I said, "well, I've had a little diarrhea." So to be fair, he didn't understand the severity of my problem. But starting up Mount Kilimanjaro, really weak, very dehydrated and wearing an aircast that came up, but I'm pretty determined. And I just wanted to... I was there to climb that mountain.

Cherry Hamrick 07:20

So our guide was wonderful, he helped me, hauled me up over things. My foot was really getting moved around in the cast because the ground is so different. So my foot hurt a lot and when we got to that first camp, because I read a lot about it, I was so excited to actually be in a camp on Mount Kilimanjaro. That was such a thrill. I just knew I didn't have the strength or the ability. The next day was twice as long and I just knew I couldn't manage. So we had to come back down the next morning and there was an ambulance waiting for me, and they took me to a clinic to get some medicine and that helped. I don't know how much you want me to go on about this?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:12

Oh no, you're not going on at all. I'm absolutely taking it all in. I know a little bit of a story but just hearing you recount that story is just so absorbing. So no, please do carry on.

Cherry Hamrick 08:23

Okay. So we were able to get into our hotel easily which was nice because it was early. Everybody was so accommodating, and so helpful, and so caring. It was really wonderful. It was a really good experience, but at that point I was so dehydrated I didn't have any saliva, so I couldn't eat because it would make me gag or throw up. So the people at the hotel kept trying to get me to eat and they would bring food to my room and I just couldn't. The good part was the girls, my daughter and another woman her age went ahead and had adventures on their own, which was wonderful. I was so pleased. I really wanted them to keep climbing but they chose not to... and I was pretty much in bed.

Cherry Hamrick 09:12

Fortunately it was a beautiful hotel and we had little patios, so I could see outside but I just couldn't do anything. But because it was my seventh continent and I was determined to run, I had a special insert for my shoe that was metal, that I had made before I went to Tanzania, hoping that would help if I can go without the boot with my stress fracture. So I put that on and I ran around the hotel, a little bit not a lot, but I was in Tanzania. I could see Mount Kilimanjaro, literally from my room, and I just felt like I had to do that and then it was stopped; the medicines stopped my symptoms enough to be okay flying home. I had to have a wheelchair because I was so weak I couldn't, I really couldn't stand up or walk very far. So when I got home, my husband took me immediately to the emergency room and I was hospitalized. My potassium was 2.3, which I found out later, it's quite dangerously low, and as severely dehydrated, obviously, and I lost about seven pounds at that point. So I was in the hospital for three days, and got a lot of potassium infusions, and a lot of hydration and went home and took about a week of not doing a whole lot, but I'm pretty healthy, and I recover quickly from things. So mostly, it was what everybody does in Tanzania. The good and the bad.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:49

It's amazing, isn't it, how if you are fit and healthy, how quickly you can recover from something? But that sounded particularly harrowing and you've gone through a lot there. You've got your boot, you know, the air cast, on. So you've got pain from your stress fracture, you've got this whole ordeal that you're dealing with the diarrhea and then back at the hotel, the sickness, or the gagging. You must have felt absolutely rotten, and the diarrhea must have just been absolutely awful to deal with. It's bad enough when you're at home, but when you're overseas, I think it just exacerbates it even more. Oh my goodness. So you've come through that and do you tell that story now, with a sense of fondness, or a sense of adventure? You know, what feeling do you find yourself recounting that adventure, that trip? How does it make you feel inside now that you can see it from the other side?

Cherry Hamrick 11:47

That's a very good question. I haven't thought about it that clearly. I tend to see everything as an adventure. I appreciated how much everybody just thought, Okay, this is what we have to deal with. I can't do anything, the girls went ahead and did adventures on their own for a few days. I didn't know till later how really dangerously sick I was, which helped us to not know at the time. And I think I don't remember maybe a lot of it. But this is an odd thing. The only thing that I could eat, my daughter had bought a little can of Pringles potato chips. That was literally the only thing I can eat. And I don't know why. Maybe the salt? I don't know. But so, you know, I had kind of an okay time in the hotel room. I knew I was missing things, which I felt badly about. But I don't know. I'm glad I survived. I don't think I was in mortal danger. But it was an adventure. I see it as an adventure, riding down the mountain in an ambulance. And the change in plans; how everybody adapted well; the caring of the people I was with, the guide and the doctor and everybody, so I guess I think it was just more of an adventure. Maybe that's painting with a good brush to make it seem happier.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 13:19

But then perhaps that's your mindset as well. You know, the way you think about things. I mean, I had a similar situation two years ago where I went on my very first skiing trip. I was with the school that I was working at, and I had an accident on the mountain. And yeah, basically I had to be ferried off the mountain. It wasn't by ambulance, but it was by ski rescue. And I just see that as the most exciting thing that happened to me that day. I was in massive pain, I'd torn my ACL and MCL in my knee and partially dislocated my kneecap. But you know I'm there with my phone, saying "please, if I'm going to go down this mountain on ski rescue, you HAVE to take a photograph of me. I'm not going home without that! So, yeah, it was all part of the adventure.

Cherry Hamrick 14:05

Yes, it is. I think if you travel enough, you learn you have to adapt quickly to situations. And that's funny that you said that, because I did take a picture of my ambulance driver, because he was very dapper had a cool hat, and things you think of you know, at the moment and to get back down the mountain, literally thinking again about how I felt about it. It's hard to recreate that now talking about it at camp and realising I just could not do anymore. The most crushing thing to me, was to realise that I thought somebody will just come and get me. But you can't. You cannot get vehicles up that high. I think we're at about 10,000 feet at that point. To realise that I had to turn around and go back down the way I came up, just at the time, that was just soul crushing, I could not imagine or face that, but I didn't have a choice. So the next morning, we did it and everybody helped, and we survived. Then we got down to where we could get in a vehicle, and then it was another hour into the town. But looking back, I thought, why was that such a big deal, but at the time, that was just soul crushing to think I had to walk all the way back down.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 15:32

I've got to cut in there you know, because I'm really interested to know, what did you draw on to get you back down the mountain? I mean, we can say it's just resilience. But it's never JUST resilience is it? It comes from a whole toolkit of being able to deal with hard stuff that is thrown at you. So was there something in particular that you drew on? Do you have a mantra that you recite over and over in your head to talk yourself out of all of the negative thoughts? What do you do to get yourself through stuff like that?

Cherry Hamrick 16:01

That's another good question that I haven't thought too deeply about, I guess. I'm just very determined. If I say, I'm gonna do something, I do it. And I just knew I was determined. I knew I could do it. I mean, I knew in the back of my mind, yes, I could walk all the way back down with a lot of help. But I never doubted that I could do it, I guess. I was just devastated at the time. And hoping I had the energy to do that. But I think I always knew I could. I don't know if that's a good explanation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 16:35

No, that's fine. I mean, sometimes it is just something deep down inside of us. We just know don't we? And it's that decision as well. You just knew that there was absolutely no way you were going to be able to go any further. So there had to come a point where you had to face - although you were determined to get up further - you had to face that you couldn't. So that took a lot of determination to understand that and to deal with that, as you said it was crushing. But what a story.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:03

So you came back, and you're in hospital for a few days.

Cherry Hamrick 17:07

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:07

And so you're in recovery. Thank goodness, you're in recovery. And then I believe lockdown happened after that, not long after and partly into your recovery at home. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened at the beginning of lockdown?

Cherry Hamrick 17:24

Yes, yes, we got home, March 3, I believe. And then I was pretty much just at home for a week. And then I was feeling better. And I have friends that I walk with, and we walked. And then we got together for lunch, because they wanted to hear about my trip. And at the time, this friend of mine, I knew who also works in the library, got an email from the library saying don't come to work tomorrow, because we're all locked down - it's happening. And so he just looked at me and said, "so do you want to walk again tomorrow? I don't have to work." And I said, "Sure!" So, the way you know, things just start kind of funny. We thought, oh, it'll be a week or two, or something and it just went on and on. Then when he did go back to work, it was more challenging, because he worked till seven, some nights. And it was really interesting, and I think again, we both like the challenge of that. The challenge of how to figure out where and when the two of us could meet every single day.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 18:40

That's that is quite a mammoth undertaking when somebody is working and yeah, you have to negotiate and manage that time. I know if I've been doing a challenge, the longest I've continued to challenge is a hundred days. So to continue it for how many days exactly, is it now?

Cherry Hamrick 18:58

514.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:00

Wow, that is just incredible. That is absolutely incredible. So you know, you're closing in on the second year, almost. You're closer to your second year than you are to the end of the first year. And do you see any sign of that stopping, or do you plan to continue or what are the plans with that? Do you feel like you can't stop now? Are you just enjoying it?

Cherry Hamrick 19:25

Well, kind of all of those things. I had done a running streak for a year, just to see if I could do it. But doing the streak with another person is a whole other level of complication. You can't just at eleven o'clock at night say "Oh shoot, I forgot", and jump on the treadmill and run for a mile. It's just another level. And honestly, especially during pandemic, it was wonderful to have a reason to go outside and to meet somebody else and to walk and talk, and we laughed a lot. People ask what we talked about all that time, and my example is because we walked a lot of neighbourhoods, we spent a lot of time one day talking about when they started attaching garages to houses. You know, we're fine trying to figure that out.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 20:20

It's amazing when you're walking and talking with somebody, what does come up. I've walked with many people, just random people that I've met along the way. And yeah, after you've kind of got over the first few minutes of life story, you do end up getting into some really interesting discussions. I'm interested to know, have there been any disagreements with the two of you in that time?

Cherry Hamrick 20:40

That's a very good question, too. No, we just we laugh and we have the same sense of humour. In the US in this particular time, we have the same political views. I think if we didn't, it might not have lasted this long. But we talk a lot of library stuff. I don't know, we just get along very well. I've known him for a long, long time through the library and he's just a wonderful person. And I don't know, now it's become a real quest for us. But we're still having fun and we're still trying to work it out every day.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:18

Well, that's fabulous. And what better way of getting out into the outdoors and keeping fit. If you can't run, if you can't climb a mountain, just go out for a walk. Is there a distance, a particular distance that you'd like to do? Have you got an optimum distance that you do every day?

Cherry Hamrick 21:35

We agreed early on, once we realized this was gonna be a thing, and the usual standard for a streak is a minimum of a mile. So we joke that our rulebook says we have to do a mile. Some days, that's all one of us has time for. One day when it was pouring rain, we did our mile under a picnic shelter roof, just going around and around and around. In the winter here, it gets very cold, very snowy, very icy. So sometimes we would have to adapt. If it was just to icy, we would slip and slide through our mile and call it good. But then other days when it's nice, and we have the time we've done ten miles, I think twelve miles might have been our longest walk so far. So we really bounce around. Yeah, in a given week, we'll do a mile five miles, eight miles just depends.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:29

Yeah, that's good. You're changing it around, and it's whatever suits your life on that particular day in the moment, isn't it? Wow. So I'm interested to know, Cherry, you've obviously done quite a lot there. You're experienced in ballet and yoga as well, in the past. It doesn't seem to faze you about embarking on new things, and you've changed up what you've done in your life, career-wise, and then you went on to study your masters. So how has your life been changed do you think, by your challenges you've chosen to do?

Cherry Hamrick 23:00

Yes, I like challenges I always have. I like thinking of something and then thinking, Oh, how do I do that? How do I get there in the case of travelling. That's one thing I oddly I liked about being a Race Director was on Race Day, something's going to happen, but you don't know what it is. And I really like that challenge of figuring things out when they happen, that you can't plan for. I don't know, it's like that challenge. And circling back to my two careers, I also always felt that you should change careers every 20 years, just to start fresh, learn something new, be with new people. I just always I just I like change. And I like challenges. And I should give a nice shout out to my husband who does not care about travelling, but totally supports and helps in any way he can for me to have my adventures without going with me, but he really enjoys the adventures that I have.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:05

Brilliant big up Mr. Cherry. That's fabulous. So do you feel then, that being faced with the unknown in those challenges, or in those new lifestyles or new careers, that you've chosen, is it the unknown that you thrive on?

Cherry Hamrick 24:19

I think possibly, and I think knowing that whatever it is, I can figure it out. I can figure out how to deal with it. I can figure out what I need, or where to go, or who to ask. I like figuring things out - how to, like on Kilimanjaro "now what's gonna happen?" I just find that intriguing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:38

Yeah. Oh wow. You have such a strong history of resilience and I love that because I've been trying to build my resilience for a long time and I'm certainly getting there I'm not there yet. I think we are always learning is as far as that goes. I think like you say you just knowing that you know what to do in particular situations, or you can be flexible. You can work around a problem and think around a problem to actually find the solution to that, knowing that you've got that toolkit in there somewhere to be able to handle that is great. And that's what resilience is all about. And this podcast really is all about is just trying to offer other women that knowledge that they have that capability to, but if we've got to find it, we've got to tap into it, haven't we, and it's not until we start having experiences and we don't have to climb Kilimanjaro or jump out of an aeroplane to have those strengthening experiences. Sometimes it's just doing those things that push us out of our comfort zone and into the unknown, like changing your job or going for a new career.

Cherry Hamrick 25:40

Yes, and I think, to me, the biggest thing is just to not panic. I've had a lot of situations where I could have panicked, but if you don't panic and just say, "Okay, I have to figure this out. Who do I talk to? Where do I go?", if you don't panic and just stop and think, 'I can figure this out'. I think that makes a big difference.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 26:05

That's actually really good advice, and I think what I've discovered about myself is that I tend not to panic, I'm very good at not panicking. Actually, I think I'm more of a worrier. So beforehand, before I go off to do something, I will worry a lot about it, perhaps unnecessarily, but when I'm actually in the moment, I'm able to tune in to what I need to get done without the panic pants going on.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 26:29

So you were doing the splits in a photograph I saw of you recently. That is something I have never, ever been able to do, Cherry. I just, I looked on that with with absolute awe and envy and wow, in every aspect. Is that because you have kept up with your yoga? Is it your years of ballet? How have you managed to keep yourself in a body that is still able to do the splits and it's seemingly so easily?

Cherry Hamrick 27:02

There's a funny story about that. When I was dancing, and I was twenty, my teacher who actually studied at the Royal Academy in London, she was English. She was wonderful and she was turning forty. She was doing a routine and it included the splits, and we were all amazed that she was that old and could do the splits. I mean, we just kept saying, "She's forty. How can she still do the splits? (And said from a twenty-year old perspective). I thought, 'okay, I'm gonna do that, I'm going to be able to do the splits all my life'. And that just started a challenge for me. And it's just a matter of doing them every day. If you do them every day, you can just keep doing them.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 27:47

So it just becomes part of your practice.

Cherry Hamrick 27:49

Yes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 27:50

And do you practice yoga as well, daily?

Cherry Hamrick 27:52

Not daily, I'm not as good as I should be. But I've just always loved yoga, for the stretching and the flexibility, especially as I get older. I'm not quite as flexible in my back as I used to be. I can still do a backbend, kind of, but even just trying it is good for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:12

Yeah...

Cherry Hamrick 28:13

And just stretching just feels good. And you know, years of being a dancer, just stretching, I just always want to stretch.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:21

I gonna I'm just going to change tack slightly here, and I'd like to ask you about the menopause, if that's okay? Just in terms of, did you find that you had any difficulties with either confidence, or body movement, things that you used to be able to do, you've suddenly found you have to work harder at, when you started going through menopause? Because I know there's going to be a lot of people listening to this, that are perhaps coming up to that time and would love to know your story.

Cherry Hamrick 28:48

For me, I think again, you know, I just always had stretched I'd always had moved. I didn't become a runner until I was in my thirties, just because I had small children and life. But I did find I had to work a little harder at stretching and be more consistent and more dedicated to stretching and moving, because what could happen. It goes away quicker the older you get. So that was just always part of my life to try to counteract that. I guess.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 29:22

That's great. It was just lovely to see that you're still able to do the splits and you've obviously come through that menopause time really positively. So do you have any advice that you can offer to midlife women, Cherry? You know, I don't know any any nuggets pertaining to resilience or adventure or anything that you just carry around with you that you live by. What would you say?

Cherry Hamrick 29:48

One thing I've thought of recently for totally different reasons is I realised I don't live my life in fear. I don't think what's the worst thing that could happen that's going to happen, so I'm not gonna it. I always think I can do stuff. I always think why not try this? Why not do this? I think I just don't want to live in fear. And I don't.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 30:10

That's good. You've actually managed to train your brain to do as you tell it. There's a lot of people that do struggle still with that. Yeah, you've got that down to an art, then that's fabulous. And just a couple of other little things. Actually, this one isn't quite so little. But if we've not talked about it already, is there a HeadRightOut Moment that you can think of something where you really felt you stepped out of your comfort zone? Something that you thought you were totally not capable of doing? But you did you succeeded?

Cherry Hamrick 30:45

Yes, I, I had always been fascinated by Antarctica. I read all the books. Robert Falcon, Scott was my hero, and especially the British-like 'daring-do' of going to Antarctica in crazy conditions, and Shackleton. I just always wanted to go to Antarctica, but it was very expensive - still is, and nobody wanted to go with me. And I just thought, I just have to go. I'm kind of a shy person. And I thought, 'how can I get on a boat with a hundred people that I don't know, and go to Antarctica? And I just thought, 'I just really want to do this'. It was quite a life changing moment to realise I could do that. I didn't have to have somebody with me that I knew. And I emailed, you have to go with the group to get there... and he said, don't worry about it. Because most people will be by themselves on the trip, because it's expensive, and not that many people want to go there. So once I heard that, I thought, well, that makes sense. And I just met amazing people. I was like the least travelled of all of these people. I had a fabulous roommate. And it was such a wonderful experience. I just really had to push myself to do it, and I realised I can go places by myself. So that was a big one for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:18

That's your HeadRightOut Moment. Wow. And can I ask how old were you when you went to Antartica, Cherry?

Cherry Hamrick 32:24

It was eight years ago, so I'll have to do the math. So I'd been sixty-five/sixty-four maybe,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:29

Okay.

Cherry Hamrick 32:30

Sixty-four.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:32

Yeah, for a lot of people, that would totally be off their radar, even though it might have been their dream. Some people would say now at that age, I'm not going to go there. But that gives us a lot of hope, yeah. Congratulations for having such an amazing HeadRightOut Moment. Well, we're coming to the end. Is there anything that I've not mentioned that you would like to talk about?

Cherry Hamrick 32:56

Not that I can think of, but I do appreciate people like you so much, that I wish you had been around when I was younger. That you know, encourage women to do things, and do things on their own and try things. I think wome... I hope the next generation is better about that. But I think women need to be more independent and just try stuff.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:18

Yeah, and it's trying stuff knowing that they don't necessarily have to depend on somebody else to do it with, like just as you've said, you went to Antarctica on your own. You CAN do these things on your own. You are autonomous, you are a person in your own right. You are not a person that's attached to somebody else, even if you're married or in a relationship you... yeah... you can do these things on your own. Well, thank you very much for saying that, Cherry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:41

Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. And I was so excited when you said that "Yes. I'll come on to the podcast", and I've absolutely been jumping up and down for this particular conversation that we've had. So is there anywhere on social media where people can follow you?

Cherry Hamrick 33:57

I'm on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. I will say I don't post a lot. But I personally don't seem to post a lot. I do when I go on trips. But other than that it's kind of pictures of me paddling down the river.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:12

Oh, because you kayak as well, don't you?

Cherry Hamrick 34:18

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, I love kayaking. Lucky enough to live on the river though. A treat for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:25

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Would you like to tell us what those social media handles are, on Instagram and Twitter please, so people can go and follow you.

Cherry Hamrick 34:33

Sure it's... one is Cherry. Just My name, Cherry Hamrick on Facebook. And on Instagram, it's CHAMRICK. So nothing fancy.

https://www.instagram.com/chamrick/

https://www.facebook.com/cherry.hamrick.9

https://twitter.com/ch3727

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:46

Brilliant. Okay, and I'll pop that in the show notes as well so that people can link to it there. So I just like to end with one thing here that and this was something that you had written in your original bio that you sent to me. I thought this would be something wonderful to finish with. Because this is all about inspiring women to head out of their comfort zone, do something that scares them every day, or do something that they didn't think that they were originally capable of.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 35:12

Once you had been to Antarctica, apparently you were giving a presentation. And you had said in this presentation about how you didn't think you were able to go because you're a little bit shy, but now that you've made lifelong friends. And a woman came to you, after the presentation, and said, how you had inspired her to start travelling again, because she thought she was done travelling when her husband died. I think just knowing that you have inspired somebody there and hopefully, when people listen to this, a whole HEAP of other women just makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Cherry Hamrick 35:53

Yes, that was that was wonderful to me. I just couldn't have asked for anything better. The other comment I got about Antarctica was thank you for going so I don't have to.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:05

Oh really, so they were living through your adventures, they were living vicariously.

Cherry Hamrick 36:13

Yes, a lot of people do NOT want to go to Antarctica.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:18

Well, Cherry, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom, all your wonderful tales. And I'm sure we'll catch up with you again at some point. But thank you very much.

Cherry Hamrick 36:29

Thank you so much. This has been fun reliving all of that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:32

Brilliant. Thank you.

Cherry Hamrick 36:34

Yes, thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:44

Well, that was such amazing advice from Cherry. With her daily walking since us recording back a few weeks ago, she's now at 567 days of walking every single day consecutively, no gaps, of at least one mile a day. But I think it's averaging out at about four miles a day. They have covered over two thousand miles. It's just incredible! She has such a strong history of resilience. And I still can't believe that she is actually seventy-three years old. In fact, I have an apology to make to Cherry, because I know in last week's episode, when I was introducing the next week's episode, I said she was seventy-four! So Cherry, I am SO sorry for that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:35

But I so want to bottle her energy and positivity to save for a 'down day'. You know, we all need that sometimes, or even better, just listen to this episode again, to get that fix of 'Cherry determination', and 'Cherry resolve' and 'Cherry adventure mindset'. It's just amazing. As she said, everything she does IS an adventure and what a sensible way to treat every single day of your life.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:05

I actually asked Cherry after the recording, what's next for her? And her reply was that she'd loved to go and see the narwhals but she realises it's such an expense, and there's only one or two places you can go for that experience. I think that's Greenland or Canada. So she says that might have to be a long-term goal. Instead, it might be a trip to Iceland, and I can really see that she is just drawn to cold places. And no wonder her hero was Scott. But I just love Cherry's message about not wanting to live in fear and how her can-do attitude just must rub off on those that she talks to and all those people who surround her. But yes, a true inspiration.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:51

Now I had a great message today. Today's 3rd October 2021, and I had a message this morning from Donna, who is a Kiwi, living in Australia, and we've had a few communications in the past. She was one of my wonderful people that stayed up late, or got up really early to watch my Royal Geographical Society Microlecture, back in March, which was live.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:18

Donna has sent in this week's HeadRightOut Moment for us to share and celebrate. So I am going to read it pretty much as Donna wrote it to me because you really need to hear this:

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:31

A real HeadRightOut Moment. My then eight-year old had been doing judo and when she got her yellow belt, she was allowed to go in the inter-club competitions, and I did the typical parent line of encouraging her to have a go, try your best and, just have fun. Given I was at the club with her three times a week and my inner ten-year old was itching to have a go at jumping on crash mats etc. I started. I got my yellow belt and the first thing my daughter said was that now I could compete at next weekend's inter-club competition, with a huge, expectant look on her face. If I had said no, I would have been the biggest hypocrite out there, but it certainly wasn't my intention to compete. And to top it off, I was up against a young lass who was seriously good. A brown belt. And two weeks later, she won a gold at the national champs! It was a serious adrenaline rush, and it started something.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:29

Now I'm just going to interrupt here there is an amazing photograph of Donna in mid-action, and I'm going to post this in the show notes. She goes on to say my last competition and my first international one was in 2014, the Bali Open. I managed to get a silver medal and was probably the oldest competitor at aged forty-five. She says judo gave me the confidence to go do the Camino. So in 2015 I walked the VDLP, which is the Via de la Plata. I'm not doing Judo at the moment, although her message reads, my old coach harasses me every other week. She's got distracted by walking, and she needs to get fitter, she says so she doesn't get injured. And every time I think I might go, it's a damn lockdown. I do love the sport though, and I binged on the Olympic coverage.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:25

So do go to the show notes and have a look at the amazing photograph of Donna doing one of her moves. It's definitely mid-action. If you want to go have a look at some of the other things that Donna posts, her Instagram handle is Missy Wombat. M.I.S.S.Y Wombat. Missy Wombat. I will pop that link in the show notes as well, so you can all go and have a look and she posts some beautiful nature photographs and wildlife photographs from around Australia. I think she lives up in the Northern Territory. So yes, do go and check out Donna, Missy Wombat.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 42:04

Okay, so next week we have the incredible Jo Moseley who funnily enough Sarah Williams mentioned in Episode Three, and I was quietly smiling to myself because I knew that Jo was going to be coming on because I'd already done the interview. Now Jo is a midlife joy encourager, she's a litter picker, and a long distance stand up paddleboarder. So we've already had Helen Jenkins, who is a stand up paddleboard instructor. Jo - yes, she fits into the bracket of long distance stand up paddleboarding. And she also hosts her own podcast too. It's so full of positivity. So you really do need to come back next week and listen to that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 42:51

Now other little bits and bobs of news that I need to share with you today. So I was in the Simply supplement magazine by Woman&Home just recently, and unfortunately, although I knew it was coming out at the beginning of September, when I went to find it, I couldn't find it anywhere. So I assumed I wasn't in it. I messaged the journalist. She's only just got back to me to say it was in and it's been and gone. So it went I think 23rd of September was when it disappeared. I have asked to see if I can get a couple of print copies off a back issue or something. It's still exciting. I have got a PDF which I can share. So I'll make those available on my socials and on the website as well for you to have a look at.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 43:40

Also I've got to say a HUGE thank you for all the follows and all the downloads. Last week HeadRightOut made it to the number 100 spot ranking in the charts in the UK and it even made number 56. It's out of 250. It made number 56 in Spain. So everybody is helping me to grow the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. And you can actually do more still by sharing the podcast or talking to friends telling a friend about the pod. Tell them what you enjoy and yes, share it with others. Let's get HeadRightOut to blast into view and make such an impact for the benefit of all the midlife women out there.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 44:25

Okay, right. Well, that's all I have to say, which was actually quite a long reflection this week. But please come back next week for more encouragement to head right out of your comfort zone and into the outdoors. Keeping your head right and healthy. See you there.

Cherry Hamrick's social links again here:

https://www.instagram.com/chamrick/

https://www.facebook.com/cherry.hamrick.9

https://twitter.com/ch3727

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Episodios

Trailblazing the Wales Coast Path in 2012 & other adventures - 020: Arry Cain
5 may 2022· HeadRightOut
Arry Cain set off in March 2012 to run the equivalent of 40 marathons in 40 days along a brand new trail, the Wales Coast Path. She would become the first person to run around the perimeter of Wales, including the Wales Coast Path. and officially launched the opening of the Path in Cardiff Bay, as she ran her last mile of a gruelling 1027 miles on 5th May. Ten years on, Arry shares her determination, her difficulties and more about the doubters that she could even achieve such an immense challenge. The impact of some of those messages left a deep scar that was hard to heal, but here she talks to Zoe about how she feels ready to reconnect with her running mojo. Arry also retells with enthusiasm and an element of terror, some of the experiences of her other adventures, particularly cycling. Arry really knows the meaning of what it is to HeadRightOut.

SHOW LINKS:

Arry Cain -

Website: Website: https://dragonrun1027.wordpress.com/ (This is currently being updated to reflect on the run, upcoming adventures and everything in between!)

Instagram: @arrycain

Twitter: @arrycain

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dragonrun1027

Illustration -

Website: www.arrycainillustration.com

Where to find HeadRightOut and Zoe on social media:

https://www.facebook.com/HeadRightOut/

https://www.instagram.com/headrightout/

https://twitter.com/HeadRightOut

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-langley-wathen/

[email protected]

Music used in this episode:

Intro, outro and transitions - ‘Stay Strong’ by Caffeine Creek Band

SHOW NOTES:

To follow

FULL TRANSCRIPTION:

To follow
The stretch that should be known as 'Arry's Cliff', Llantwit Major (taken in March 2012).
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A Donkey, Children & Slow Ways; inspiring human-powered home travel: Hannah Engelkamp - 019
23 mar 2022· HeadRightOut
Hannah Engelkamp talks about walking Wales with a spirited donkey, children, adventures and the pandemic. Her current passion is inspiring others to walk Slow Ways routes, a new network of direct paths, from settlement to settlement, across Great Britain.

Hannah is a writer and editor with a background in adventure magazines and websites. In 2013 she travelled waywardly around the circumference of Wales, 1000 miles, with a characterful donkey called Chico as her companion. In 2015 she published ‘Seaside Donkey’, a book and a feature-length film of the same, detailing her unusual adventure.

In this episode, Zoe talks with Hannah about her adventures with her young children, taking on the position of wardens on Bardsey Island for six months with her partner, and her experience of the pandemic, with no garden and two children to occupy. There are surprising similarities between donkey and toddler, Hannah reveals.

More recently, Hannah was appointed as the Culture, Imagination and Story Lead for Slow Ways, a project working towards creating a trusted network of walking routes that connect settlements and encourage people to walk and engage with the land for their everyday routines in addition to leisure walking. There will be a later episode of HeadRightOut in which full attention is given to Seaside Donkey, as Chico would naturally expect...

SHOW LINKS:

Hannah Engelkamp -

Website: www.seasidedonkey.co.uk (http://seasidedonkey.co.uk/shop-2/ for the book and film)

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seasidedonkey/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/hannahengelkamp

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SeasideDonkey

Slow Ways -

Website: www.slowways.org

Swarm including the link to the Google doc for submitting film clips from your walk.

https://beta.slowways.org/Page/the-swarm-how-far-can-we-walk-in-a-weekend

Map to use for searching for routes needing verification or choosing new walks to pioneer: https://slowways.maps.arcgis.com/apps/instant/interactivelegend/index.html?appid=7a48a682d41d450b99772f2e25d15d29

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/slowwaysuk/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/SlowWaysUK

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SlowWaysUK

Where to find HeadRightOut and Zoe on social media:

https://www.facebook.com/HeadRightOut/

https://www.instagram.com/headrightout/

https://twitter.com/HeadRightOut

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-langley-wathen/

[email protected]

Music used in this episode:

Intro, outro and transitions - ‘Stay Strong’ by Caffeine Creek Band

SHOW NOTES:

To follow

FULL TRANSCRIPTION:

To follow
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Fell Running, Marathons & Mountain Biking; Founder of Element for Active Women - 018: Ruth Pickvance
9 feb 2022· HeadRightOut
Ruth shares her passion for the mountains, becoming an international fell running champion, fast marathons and how mountain bike orienteering has captured her interest aged 60. She is the founder of Element, offering active courses for women in Wales.

In 2012, Ruth Pickvance, an adventurous, retired international fell running champion and super-fast marathon runner, left her well-paid head of faculty role at a Sixth Form College, to set up Element. The business offers women the opportunity to find confidence in outdoor pursuits such as Yoga for Runners, Beginning Fell Running and Mountain Biking for Beginners. At sixty years old, Ruth herself has discovered that she enjoys mountain bike orienteering, which marries her love of the outdoors with the joy of moving her body with less impact on her joints than perhaps those marathons of her forties had created.

Living in the beautiful Brecon Beacons, Ruth shares more about her involvement in local environmental projects and conservation, as well as offering some first-hand wisdom regarding facing our fears and stretching those comfort zones.

SHOW LINKS for RUTH PICKVANCE:

Website: https://element-active.co.uk/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/elementactive/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/RuthPickvance

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/elementactiveuk

***PLEASE VOTE FOR HEADRIGHTOUT IN THE SPORTS PODCAST AWARDS:***

In the Best Urban and Adventure Category

https://www.sportspodcastawards.com/categories/18

Where to find HeadRightOut and Zoe on social media:

https://www.facebook.com/HeadRightOut/

https://www.instagram.com/headrightout/

https://twitter.com/HeadRightOut

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-langley-wathen/

[email protected]

Music used in this episode:

This Minimal Technology by Coma-Media from Pixabay

Morning Garden - Acoustic Chill by Olexy from Pixabay

The Cradle of Your Soul by lemonmusicstudio from Pixabay -

Simple Piano Melody by ZakharValaha from Pixabay

Intro, outro and transitions - ‘Stay Strong’ by Caffeine Creek Band

SHOW NOTES:
Welcome to the episode 00:51 Request for votes in the Sports Podcast Awards - Best Urban and Adventure Category - currently ranked in third place - this is likely to change 01:17 Different format for episode due to mic problems when recording. Please let me know if you like the format or preferred HeadRightOut’s original style 02:27 What to expect in our conversation. 03:23 Where Zoe and Ruth first met and Ruth’s bio: International Mountain Runner, Former British Fell Champion, fast marathon runner, exploring nature and founder of Element 04:06 How Ruth came into racing, visiting the Lake District one Christmas around 1985 and making a spontaneous decision 06:20 How quickly Ruth became good at the sport and why it touched a chord with her 08:42 How old Ruth was when she started racing and where her deep-rooted love of the mountains stemmed from 09:33 Zoe talks about the Gold Hill 10 race in Shaftesbury, Dorset - the strength needed running uphill vs the fear of running downhill 10:41 Where the fear comes from and how it affects us when running downhill 11:42 How to let go and deal with the fear head on 13:10 Understanding resilience both personally for Ruth and in general 15:13 What is fear, to Ruth? Recognising negative cycles and what we need 18:36 About perimenopause symptoms for Zoe 21:19 When menopause kicked in for Ruth and how she handled it 22:44 Ruth’s love for swimming and other activities - cycling, running, strength work, land management, walking 24:35 Zoe hearing about positive impact of exercise from other women in perimenopause including Jo Moseley 26:05 Ruth’s recommendations to see a GP or specialist doctor in menopause and HRT if symptoms are debilitating 26:42 Zoe’s experience with some of the perimenopause symptoms 27:27 Ruth talks about bringing curiosity to fear in order to see fear differently 29:09 Digging deep when the doubts and thoughts of being hopeless creep in 31:32 Mountain biking for beginners with Element - Ruth shares what some of the participants have said about the two-day course 35:28 What Element offers to women coming on the workshops and courses 38:14 Ruth’s volunteer work with Stump Up for Trees, planting a million trees 42:50 Guardian articles and reviews, Antonia Bolingbroke-Kent and Kate Rawles 44:42 Talking about Ruth’s days racing and fell running in the UK and Europe 46:08 Types of sponsorship available and the preference to not be fully professional as an athlete 48:32 Ruth’s HeadRightOut Moment 50:40 Running marathons and choosing fell running over the Olympics 51:57 Where to find Ruth on her website and on social media 53:50 Laughing about talking for fifty minutes. Thanks from Zoe to Ruth 54:40 Zoe shares Ruth’s PB for her fast marathon. Subscribe to Ruth’s newsletter for Element 55:08 Lou Lloyd’s HeadRightOut Moment - wild camping solo in the Brecon Beacons and WWOOFING on a smallholding 57:00 Zoe taking a short break to deal with family things 59:44 Please let Zoe know what you thought of the episode format 1:00:10 Please vote for HeadRightOut in the Sports Podcast Awards 1:00:43 Thanks to the listeners, thanks to the guests and an invitation to plan and then step out of your comfort zone 1:00:55 HeadRightOut Hugs to all 1:01:39
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Truffles, Tribes & Tragedy; Healing Through World Foods & Adventures - 017: Sue Plastow
2 feb 2022· HeadRightOut
After the sudden death of her husband, Sue Plastow and her family left their Italian truffle orchard to return to the UK. Less than 12 months later, she is finding her feet again with exciting plans ahead that involves outdoor adventures, good food and a space for women to walk and talk. Her children experienced a wonderfully feral upbringing of travel and freedom. Now it’s Sue’s turn to find adventures to honour her late husband’s memory. Her positivity and zest for life is infectious. While she is aware that she is still grieving, Sue knows that the only way forward is to reach back to old skills, reach out for support, and reach up towards the future.

SHOW LINKS:

Instagram:

https://www.instagram.com/nakedtartufi/

https://www.instagram.com/englishlanguagefoodschool/

Twitter:

https://twitter.com/nakedtartufi

Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/nakedtartufi/

***PLEASE VOTE FOR HEADRIGHTOUT IN THE SPORTS PODCAST AWARDS:***

In the Best Urban and Adventure Category

https://www.sportspodcastawards.com/categories/18

https://www.facebook.com/HeadRightOut/

https://www.instagram.com/headrightout/

https://twitter.com/HeadRightOut

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-langley-wathen/

You can email Zoe: [email protected]

SHOW NOTES:
An audio clip from Sue’s conversation [00:00] Zoe’s introduction to the guest [00:45] Thank you for voting and news about HeadRightOut being a finalist in the Podcasting for Business Awards in the Best Health & Wellbeing category. Request to vote in the Sports Podcast Awards [02:33] Sue Plastow’s bio across thirty years of family travelling and living abroad [03:58] Sue’s fears and reservations about adventuring with a young family of four children under the age of five [07:37] How Sue’s children, now young adults, have benefitted from a childhood of freedom and away from the conventional education system [08:52] Children barefoot and feral, roaming anywhere; living in the mountains, and near the Med, snowboarding, skiing and sailing [09:52] What her children are doing now and about their healthy emotional wellbeing [11:12] Why Sue thinks she’s always been resilient [12:24] Sue’s study/travel timeline, into a relationship, marriage and children, normal life attempt and then campervan adventures with the family in Canada [13:09] What you learn to live without - living simply on the road [14:36] Getting cold in Canada so moving to Dubai, doing desert drumming and sandboarding [15:27] Talking through the personal circumstances that’s brought Sue and family back to UK [17:23] Global Financial Crisis (GFC), Australia, Malaysia, South of France, Switzerland, Italy and Sue’s husband’s death [17:41] Quick thinking prior to travel corridors closing due to the pandemic - rapid move back to UK and how everyone is coping [18:32] Not wanting others to think they have to just crack on because Sue did [19:45] How Sue and the family have found the things they need to survive and move on; honouring her husband’s life [20:32] Sue looking back through her arsenal for skills to draw upon - what could she do? Cookery, social/communication, teaching English, gaining TEFL qualification [21:56] The importance of connection with other midlife women [23:57] Zoe’s similar experience of grief/loss [24:36] A lurching horror vs a transformation - not wanting to be prescriptive about grief [26:44] Message to all: You’re not alone and there are glimmers of hope [28:27] Zoe’s old saying from someone years ago ‘Out of every adversity…’ [28:42] The importance of food and travelling, cookery classes and a bridge between cultures [29:50] Travel adventures with food, outside and a podcast about it [30:36] New events kitchen - called Naked Tartufi [31:35] New concept of outdoor adventure, food and walking along the South West Coast Path - a Moveable Feast [32:23] A therapy, communication, tribe, group of women coming full circle from the bonding experiences of bringing up the family tribe [34:38] The magic of walking and talking [35:24] The impact of travelling so much on Sue and her children. Seeing a million ways to live a life [37:10] Sue’s HeadRightOut Moment facing her fears and driving her children in the snowy, icy mountains to their activities [38:02] Sue’s message that anyone can do it - if she can, they can [39:59] Discussing Sue’s presence on social media - Instagram, Twitter and Facebook, including both the Naked Tartufi account and English Language Cookery School and her podcast, Eat Yourself Alive [40:23] Zoe’s reflection on the episode [42:09] Zoe’s own HeadRightOut Moment from exactly two years ago - Mount Tremper, upstate New York, 100ScaryDays [43:26] Invitation to listen in next week - Ruth Pickvance next week’s guest - international champion fell runner, now running Element Active business - women in the outdoors [47:01] Grateful reminder for listeners to vote for HeadRightOut on Sports Podcast Awards in the Best Urban and Adventure category [47:42] HeadRightOut Hugs [47:56]
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A Do or Die Decision on Weight Loss; Discovering a New Life Outdoors - 016: Maria Roberts
26 ene 2022· HeadRightOut
This is a compelling conversation between Zoe and Maria Roberts about transitioning from size 26 to size 10. Self-loathing and lacking in confidence, her family needed her. She knew that she would have to make changes. She had to start moving her body and change her lifestyle, despite attempting many unsuccessful diets from the age of ten. After her amazing 8 stone weight loss in her late forties, Maria has now discovered a new-found love for staying fit, being in the outdoors, cycling, canoeing and particularly going on mountain walks and challenges. Her most recent challenge, Ten-y-Fan was gruelling and took every ounce of determination, as she aimed for ten ascents of the highest peak in the Brecon Beacons, Pen-y-Fan. Maria continues to push her comfort zone limits to keep her fit and healthy, both physically, mentally and emotionally and feels she has finally gained her life, and her family back. SHOW LINKS:

Maria's Instagram

Maria's Twitter

***PLEASE VOTE FOR HEADRIGHTOUT ON THE SPORTS PODCAST AWARDS:***

In the Best Urban and Adventure Category

https://www.sportspodcastawards.com/categories/18

Connect with Zoe:

HeadRightOut on Facebook

HeadRightOut on Instagram

HeadRightOut on Twitter

Zoe Langley-Wathen on LinkedIn

Email Zoe directly

HeadRightOut website
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Miles, Mountains & Menopause: Getting My Life Back - 015: Jo Bradshaw
19 ene 2022· HeadRightOut
As a business advisor who feared heights, Jo Bradshaw never would have dreamed that just a few years later she would summit Mount Everest and lead expeditions across the world. Having now reached six out of the seven highest peak summits, on each of the seven continents, Jo shares how her biggest challenge found her learning to manage the blended symptoms of grief, menopause and lockdown, and how new adventures have since been born. In her conversation with Zoe, she is so incredibly honest about how severely her perimenopause symptoms affected her and how HRT has been a total gamechanger, giving back her life. While her last mountain is still on hold, Jo talks about her return to physical training: from the endurance walking and cycling events she designed last year, to the miles she needs to cover in her newest challenge, coming up in March 2022; a race in Lapland.

SHOW LINKS:

Jo’s website - www.jobradshaw.co.uk

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/_jobradshaw/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/jobradshawadventurer

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo-bradshaw-keynotespeaker/

***PLEASE VOTE FOR HEADRIGHTOUT IN THE SPORTS PODCAST AWARDS:***

In the Best Urban and Adventure Category

https://www.sportspodcastawards.com/categories/18

https://www.facebook.com/HeadRightOut/

https://www.instagram.com/headrightout/

https://twitter.com/HeadRightOut

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-langley-wathen/

[email protected]

SHOW NOTES:
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Van Life, Challenging Ageist Attitudes & Pro-ageing; Retire Adventurously & Positively - 014: Siobhan Daniels
12 ene 2022· HeadRightOut
Siobhan Daniels inspires young and old alike. As a woman who has endured a variety of pains life had to throw at her, she is now not only living her best life into retirement, she's on a mission to encourage others to do that too, and to promote the enjoyment of growing older. Siobhan retired from the BBC, two years ago, after a thirty-year career working as a reporter, presenter, and producer in local news. Her life's rollercoaster involved being a single mum, taking a gap year from work to backpack solo around the world, suffering burn-out, ageism, and workplace bullying, all whilst dealing with grief, and multiple symptoms associated with peri-menopause. Knowing how much she had learned and grown from her back-packing adventure at forty-nine, after years of planning, Siobhan retired to travel the UK in her motorhome, championing and campaigning for companies, products and the public to see the good in ageing. In her words, ‘you are never too old for an adventure’.

SHOW LINKS:

Siobhan Daniels' website and blog:

https://www.shuvonshuvoff.co.uk/blog

Rachel Peru's podcast:

https://www.rachelperu.co.uk/out-of-the-bubble-podcast

HeadRightOut Moment from Charlotte Boenigk

Personal training links:

www.moreyou.online

www.facebook.com/moreyoufitness

www.instagram.com/moreyoufitness

Free Your Instinct:

www.freeyourinstinct.org

www.facebook.com/freeyourinstinct

www.instagram.com/freeyourinstinct

***PLEASE VOTE FOR HEADRIGHTOUT ON THE SPORTS PODCAST AWARDS:***

In the Best Urban and Adventure Category)

https://www.sportspodcastawards.com/

SHOW NOTES:
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Oceans Seven & 1111km Extreme Ultra-Triathlon; Strength, Meditation and Mindful Music - 013: Abhejali Bernardová
5 ene 2022· HeadRightOut
Only the 10th person in history (the 4th woman and first swimmer from the Czech Republic), Abhejali Bernardová has completed the coveted ‘Oceans Seven’ - a physically gruelling and mentally demanding open-water swim across seven channels around the world. Zoe talks with Abhejali about her more recent challenge; an Extreme Ultra-Triathlon, crossing 1111kms from Dover to Prague.

This conversation is definitely not just about swimming, running and cycling, however, as the deep and powerful methods of self-talk and managing the mind during endurance challenges are shared. With such a positive, thought-provoking and calm approach to this episode, it is an ideal opportunity to consider the condition of your own headspace prior to event preparation.

SHOW LINKS:

https://www.instagram.com/abhejali/

https://www.facebook.com/AbhejaliB

https://twitter.com/abhejali?lang=en-GB

https://abhejali.cz/ (Czech website - English site being built)

SHOW NOTES:

*Please note error in the introduction - the date of editing the show is 2nd January 2022, not 2021 as stated.
Zoe's introduction to the guest - Abhejali Bernardová [01:39] Abhejali's bio: from Czech Republic, 44yrs old, runner, open-water swimmer, extreme ultra-triathlete, member of Sri Chinmoy marathon team. She is the 10th person in history, 4th woman and first swimmer from Czech Republic to complete Oceans Seven. She has completed a 6-day run and is a multiple national champion at 100kms and 24 hours. She was nominated for both 2018 and 2019 world Open Water Swimming Woman of the Year. [02:15] Why 1111kms? [04:33] What is the Oceans Seven? [05:55] Self-transcendence and meditation to assist the mental side of physical challenges. [08.31] A choice of choosing challenge in order to learn more about self. [11:05] Meditation techniques used. [12:17] Dealing with the difficult mind stuff with meditation, mantras and music. [14:20] The Oceans Seven criteria. [17:56] The support crew on boat and land. [19:14] Characterising an ocean - describing its personality. [21:41] Witnessing the bioluminescence. [24:42] About the training and commitment. [25:48] Logistics of organising the Extreme Ultra-Triathlon. [30:17] Funding challenges. [32:10] What's next? [33:03] Abhejali's HeadRightOut Moment. [35:08] How Abhejali's life has been changed. [38:17] Wrapping up the conversation and her book (to come). [40:41] Zoe's reflection on her conversation with Abhejali. [43:56] A HeadRightOut Moment from Iain. [45:12] Gained weight - up to 16st. Lost weight through walking, running and then cycling- specifically, time-trialling. In two years, gained a certificate in the Best British All-Rounder Competition in cycling for averaging 23mph. How this moment has changed Iain's life. Brief introduction to next week's guest - Siobhan Daniels. Motorhome living, retired, positive and pro-aging campaigner. Request for listeners to follow, rate and review HeadRightOut. Ratings can also be left on Spotify now. Thanks, good wishes for 2022 and HeadRightOut Hugs.
PHOTOS OF ABHEJALI:

PHOTOS OF IAIN - THIS WEEK'S LISTENER HEADRIGHTOUT MOMENT:
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Explore, Challenge and Observe: The Three Pillars of HeadRightOut - Solopisode - 012: Zoe Langley-Wathen
29 dic 2021· HeadRightOut
In this Solopisode, Zoe shares in more detail about the three pillars of HeadRightOut, EXPLORE, CHALLENGE, and OBSERVE. She talks about what they mean for her, for the podcast, and HeadRightOut as a business, and ultimately, what they mean for YOU. They have, after all been written with you in mind. Zoe knows she’s not alone in the way her brain operates and that there are billions of people, women in particular, who share the same fears, and the same pain points as her. Zoe believes these pillars will speak to you, as they have spoken to her, and she’s so excited to share them with you.

Why not take some time to EXPLORE what opportunities are open to you in your life? How you can make the CHALLENGES work for you with a little planning and belief in yourself. And with a daily or weekly journal, you could OBSERVE the impact it has on your routine, and open up further doors for you to adapt and grow. E.C.O. = EXPLORE, CHALLENGE and OBSERVE.

Enjoy making magical inroads into your best life, making time and space to feel uncomfortable. Take risks and challenge yourself to HeadRightOut using Zoe’s EXPLORE, CHALLENGE and OBSERVE method. Make it part of your own ECO-system, and before you know it, it'll become habit.

SHOW LINKS:

https://www.facebook.com/HeadRightOut/

https://www.instagram.com/headrightout/

https://twitter.com/HeadRightOut

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zoe-langley-wathen/

[email protected]

Belinda Kirk - Episode 11 on HeadRightOut talking about the benefit of adventure on wellbeing.

Nahla Summers - Episode 9 and Stephie Boon - Episode 7 on HeadRightOut talking about how they avoid planning, preferring to fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants. Nahla talks also about having 'blind optimism'.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith - Episode 2 talking about planning for a bucket list and how to go about achieving these goals in her book, 'Live Your Bucket List'.

Joanna Penn - Author and Creative Entrepreneur :

Joanna Penn can be found on her website The Creative Penn

Joanna also hosts both The Creative Penn Podcast and the Books and Travel Podcast.

SHOW NOTES:
Zoe introduces the outline and intention of this episode with the main focus being the three pillars of HeadRightOut. [00.23] Starting with request to hit 'follow' in your podcast app. Rate, review and share with a friend. Show them how to listen to a podcast if they've never done it before. [02:51] Monetisation - considerations for the future of sustaining the show. Feedback received along with unprompted requests to financially support the show and thanks. [03.50] Fresh new year approaching. Changes Zoe has made to her routine, including rising super-early and use of Google Calendar. [05:59] Potential for more Solopisodes than originally intended, if the listeners want them? Please let Zoe know - message on socials or [email protected]. Can be on a variety of topics including perimenopause, caring for elderly parents, planning or packing for an adventure. [09:01] The Three Pillars of HeadRightOut - main focus of today's episode. General introduction to them. [10:40] About the first pillar - EXPLORE. The idea stage. Something has to change. You may not know where to start. It's a fallow time, like the autumn/winter time of preparing the land (for you - paving the way). [13.23] About the second pillar - CHALLENGE. The hardest stage and often the stage at which many cannot move past. The organisation of the adventure happens in this stage. Trust and self-belief feature heavily in this stage. [20:31] About the third and final pillar - OBSERVE. The best bit means experiencing and debriefing yourself. The importance of keeping a journal and/or a video/audio diary. Figuring out what has worked well and where you could improve for next time. Learning to accept that not everything goes to plan. Ask yourself a variety of questions during and after the challenge. You may have experienced Type Two Fun... [30:08] Zoe's reflection and summing-up of The Three Pillars of HeadRightOut. EXPLORE, CHALLENGE and OBSERVE. [36:45]
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The world needs an Adventure Revolution: and midlife women to organise it! - 011: Belinda Kirk
24 dic 2021· HeadRightOut
Zoe chats with Belinda Kirk, who has over 26 years of experience in leading expeditions. She has witnessed the positive impact of undertaking outdoor challenges on mental health and wellbeing and believes that now, more than ever, adventure should be the go-to for ALL age-groups. She shares the foundations of her ground-breaking book, Adventure Revolution and the importance of having a mindset that includes comfort zone stretching in order to grow in confidence, developing long-lasting self-efficacy, self-esteem and resilience.
Welcome back to Season Two Thank you for returning if you have listened before. About Zoe and about HeadRightOut. [00:37] Belinda Kirk introduction. [02:04] What is the difference between being outside and 'adventure'? 'Nature Effect' vs 'Adventure Effect'. [04:09] Choosing not just challenge, but uncertainty and adversity. Choosing to be uncomfortable and the benefits. Finding out what we're capable of and building resilience. [06:14] Belinda's personal take on the research around the impact of adventure on women in particular. [08:17] The importance of taking adventures at key turning points in our lives - not just as a teenager. [10:54] The 'invisibility' of midlife women and how they are the backbone of Britain. [14:06] Adventure Revolution - the book. Praise from Zoe and where it started. [15:50] How adventure is powerful for well-being and positive psychology. [16:47] Writing the book during lockdown. [19:25] How the book has been received. Feedback at Kendal Mountain Festival. [20:51] Does the Adventure Effect need maintaining? How? [22:14] What Zoe calls 'Microbravery'. [23:53] What's in Belinda's resilience toolkit? [26:26] Using the word 'failure' - a correction to reframe the definition and use it more positively. [29:03] If adversity and risk is good for us, how do we effect change? [31:47] Belinda's HeadRightOut Moment [37:01] About the Adventure Mind Conference. [38:55] Where to find Belinda. [40:41] Zoe's reflection on her conversation with Belinda. [42:01] Karen Wood's HeadRightOut Moment. [44:23] Next episodes coming up. Solopisode, Abhejali Bernardova, Siobhan Daniels and Jo Bradshaw. [50:38] Update on the Out-Out episodes. [52:16] Request to follow, rate and review the podcast. Request for listener's HeadRightOut Moments. [53:29]
Belinda's Links:

@explorerbelinda

@explorersconnect

belindakirk.com

explorersconnect.com

Click to book for the Adventure Mind Conference and find out more information (26th - 27th March 2022).

To read my write-up of the 2020 Adventure Mind event, click here.

Karen Wood - a 'Cold Water Bobbing' HeadRightOut Moment in the sea at Sidmouth.

Follow Karen on Instagram here.
Cold Water Success on Sidmouth Beach Karen Feeling Happy After Her Cold Water Bobbing
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Finding a Way Into Confidence; 5500+ miles on foot, Kyiv to UK, via Spain, bears and a pandemic - 010: Ursula Martin
10 nov 2021· HeadRightOut
Zoe talks to the inspiring Ursula Martin, who has built resilience and confidence over the years simply by realising she has to get on and do it - whatever that 'IT' is. She shares many powerful messages and despite the enormity of her challenges, Ursula is humble and profoundly honest to the end. She talks about how she doesn't want to be treated as a hero just because she walked over 3000 miles around Wales, following a cancer diagnosis, or over 5000 miles across Europe. Zoe struggles to comprehend the stories of the absence of visible pilgrims on the Camino, while Ursula shares her experience of reaching an empty Santiago, solo. Her retelling of the way her body handled her primal emotions on returning to Wales after two years and nine months, walking and surviving, is utterly gripping, animated and so full of joy, you could almost have been there. Ursula is candid and shares practical advice about how to apply lessons learned on the trail to simply get on and face difficult tasks, undertake an adventure, or stand your ground with fear, head-on.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:15

Hello, and welcome to this the tenth episode of HeadRightOut, and the last episode of the season, I can't believe it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:25

My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen, and today I'll be talking to Ursula Martin, who has built resilience and confidence over the years simply by realising she has to get on and do it. Now while it's a longer than usual episode, it's also INCREDIBLE. Do listen to the end, because she shares powerful words, right to the very last. "Trust your strength of will." She talks about how she doesn't want you to treat her as a hero just because she walked over 3000 miles around Wales, or over 5000 miles across Europe. We all have an adventure in us, and no matter how big or small it is, it's probably more about confidence and self-belief than it is about ability. I'm also going to reveal news about multiple giveaways that I have in store for you to mark the end of this amazing first season. So, let's get into the conversation!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:36

Today I am with the inimitable, Ursula Martin.

Ursula Martin 01:41

Hello.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:42

Hello, Ursula! Well, Ursula, I am going to have to just dive straight in and read your very brief bio, because this is such a snapshot of who you are and what you've been up to for the last few years. It in no way describes what you've REALLY been through, and that's what we're going to dig into, once we get into our conversation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:06

In 2011, at the age of 31 Ursula was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She later spent 17 months walking 3700 miles around Wales, raising money and awareness of ovarian cancer. Since the walk Ursula went on to write a book about her experience, and it was called One Woman Walks Wales. Fast forward to 2018, and she set off to walk 5500+ miles across Europe, from Ukraine to UK, via Spain. Ursula completed her epic, EPIC solo journey on June 6th 2021 In Llanidloes, mid-Wales.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:51

Just take a deep breath there, my goodness. Every time I hear something about One Woman Walks, or Ursula Martin, there are all of these words, these adjectives that come into my head... and I'm sure they're probably not the adjectives that you would use to describe you, Ursula? So one word, one word just straight off there - how would you describe yourself? I'm just interested to know.

Ursula Martin 03:18

I don't know, one word is just 'stubborn', I guess.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:23

Oh, I'm so pleased, you said that. I'm so pleased.

Ursula Martin 03:26

I mean, that can summarise all the activities in one. It's not adventurous, it's stubborn.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:26

you said.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:36

Brilliant. I just threw that in there, I hadn't planned that one at all. When I was looking over your website, and just reading up a little bit more about you, obviously, I've been following you for quite a few years, but I just wanted to make sure that I had all of the information that I needed. I read on there that you described yourself as being 'confused and disorganised', and I'm thinking that just doesn't come across, at all. And you say you might feel that, but for me, I just see somebody who has such a lot of perseverance and tenacity, and strength, that you just inspire me. And I know you inspire huge amount of other people out there.

Ursula Martin 04:19

I think part of that is my problem with writing bios about myself. I just really hate it. I don't like saying good things about myself, and so I usually try and be a bit kind of subversive and just say, 'Hi, I'm really crap, this is what I've done'. And then and let it speak for itself.

04:36

You know,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 04:37

A lot of us struggle with that, and I know, some of the guests that I've had on have had an issue with that as well. It's just like how do we 'big up' ourselves and it's not really about bigging up ourselves. It's just about being honest, isn't it?

Ursula Martin 04:49

It's marketing isn't it. It's sales and marketing. You can do anything, just go off and do it and you can describe that in one way. But when you're also trying to tell people about it, that's a different kind of skill altogether, and actually, not everybody who can go and climb a mountain can also tell a good story about it and get people interested in it. You know, it's lots of different skills all at once.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:11

Yeah, masses of skills in there. So let's go back to, was it 2011, you had your cancer diagnosis?

Ursula Martin 05:21

Yeah. Was it 2011? No, it was 2012.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:25

Was it, okay?

Ursula Martin 05:26

Yeah

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:27

Okay,

Ursula Martin 05:27

Sorry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:28

No that's okay. The year of the Olympics. And so, which came first? The challenge that you used in the face of that cancer diagnosis, so that challenge that you decided to head off and walk? Or did you already have that Ursula-style adventure mindset? I'm kind of using 'adventure' loosely, but is it that doggedness that I want to do something I want to be outside? Yeah, what came first?

Ursula Martin 05:55

Definitely, the mindset came first. I mean, in a way, what I've done since the cancer has just been a continuation of a path that I was already on, except that it just got much bigger, much more public, and much broader challenges. I think there are lots of ways to end up in a place where you are doing physical, you know, let's use the word adventure, even though I don't really like it. To be an adventurer, you can be a very physical person who loves sports, and loves physical challenges, and goes into ways that are an exploration of your physical capability, or different ways that I have actually come about it are more kind of... countercultural is not the right way to describe it. But in this way of seeing the way that life was supposed to be, as in, you're supposed to go to university, you're supposed to succeed, you're supposed to get a nice job and a mortgage and whatever and not wanting to do that. A rejecting of that, and pushing boundaries in all kinds of different ways, like behaviourally, and you know, there are all kinds of different ways in which you can push yourself and open yourself. And so I have a lot of friends who are heavily involved in festivals and parties, and there's a lot of exploration of boundaries and sense of opening yourself up to questioning your ideas about the way the world should be.

Ursula Martin 07:23

So there I think adventuring is also a way to do that by saying, 'I'm going to go and sleep on the ground, outside'. And so all these people are going 'no, we're humans, we have houses and blankets and comfortable things. We don't give up our structured, safe way of life'. And then you go, 'but no, I can go and sleep on the ground. And I can not know where I'm going to sleep that night. And look at that I'm still okay, and safe and comfortable in the world'. And that's an exploration for me. That's an exploration of behaviour, expectations, and boundaries. Through that, which is something that I question and like to do in my life, I've come to physical adventure, as a way of doing that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:09

So you've actively sought out not conforming to what those expectations are?

Ursula Martin 08:15

I was unhappy that I had to let go of things, and really I started doing that when I was about twenty-seven or so, twenty-five or twenty-seven. Just letting go of stuff. And the thing that was my first adventure was in 2007, or so, and I've done all kinds of things like hitching across Europe in 2007, or taking six weeks off work and just hitchhiking into Europe and doing this big circle into... I went to a couple of festivals in Germany. I went to Berlin for a week, and then went down into the Balkans. I went to stay on a farm in Croatia and then hitchhiked home, and that was six weeks, and that was this exploration of letting go of control of the future. Actually, the way that I kind of came to this was by the time I was twenty-eight, I was working in homeless hostel in Aberystwyth. This is 2008. I didn't enjoy the job, it was getting to me was getting me down a bit. I started to do a counselling training course, but I'd always been involved in social care, like as a care provider, not as a higher level social care stuff. I started to do this counselling course, as a move-on option. I realised how messed up I was, because that's what you have to do when you do basic counselling, is you have to look at yourself and I realised that I just needed to go travelling. In this real cliched kind of way, like 'what even is travelling?' What I started to do was explore spontaneity and letting go. I think that when you try and control the future, a lot, you're not trusting yourself that you have the ability to exist in the future, in a spontaneous way, and so not consciously, it's not like I had this plan set up of how I'm going to change become a better person, but I kind of went 'Yes, I'm going travelling' and I was twenty-eight.

Ursula Martin 10:02

The first few things I did were WWOOFING, volunteering on organic farms in Wales and in the UK.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:08

That's called woofing?

Ursula Martin 10:09

WWOOFING, yes. If you've heard of it, you're not surprised by the word. But then if you haven't...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:13

I hadn't heard of that, I know about volunteering. But yes, I hadn't heard that term and I love it!

Ursula Martin 10:19

There's HelpX as well, that's another one, and it's basically it's it's volunteer work, but usually on farming or alternative creative projects. So it was three years before I got diagnosed with cancer after I went off and started travelling, and at the start of that three years, I was arranging volunteer projects in advance. And at the end of that three years, I kayaked down the length of the River Danube, and I had no idea where I was going to live at the end of it. I literally got off at the harbour side, in Varna, I ended up Varna in the Black Sea, and I had no idea where I was going to go and what I was going to do. To me that's success, because I had succeeded in coping with spontaneity and letting go, basically. So that's what I was doing before I got cancer, and so the Welsh walks since are a completely different expression. They're not a new thing for me, for sure, but they're just a progression of what I was doing before cancer.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 11:19

But that's amazing that spontaneity and discovery, that journey of discovery that you were going through, without you even realising was setting you up maybe, to be dealing with what life was going to then throw at you with that cancer diagnosis. You were so young to receive that diagnosis. Nobody expects to be given that. A lot of people do like to travel or take a gap year or whatever it is in their twenties. Not everybody does it. There's evidence to say that those people who do do it, it builds their confidence. It builds resilience and strength. It sounds like that's certainly how it's helped you. But the fact that then you've realised you need to continue that journey of discovery, afterwards. I think that's what's so compelling for me to know about, is that you've just extended it and extended it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:16

When you were when you were either considering a journey or planning a challenge, were you facing any barriers, within the thoughts about what you were going to be doing, where you were going to be doing it, how you were going to do it? I mean, there might have been emotional barriers; there might have been physical barriers. Did you stumble up against anything like that, that you thought, 'Gosh, how am I going to get over that?'

Ursula Martin 12:36

Not sure. I seem to be this great believer in that you can achieve anything you want to be if you put your mind to it. It was amazing. Because the preparation for kayaking the length of the Danube, I didn't really have loads of money. I mean, I had like, four or five grand in the bank, something like that, like, minimal, really. And that's it. That's all I had in the world. So there was this question of where do I get a kayak from? And how do I source it? And how do I transport it to Germany where where the river trip is going to start? So I could have bought a kayak for brand new, and have it shipped there for a grand you know, for like 25% of all my money in the world, I could have got a kayak to Ingolstadt. Or I could have rented it, which to me made no sense either. What I ended up doing was finding a kayak for sale online in Northwest Germany. And then there was this question of, well, how do I get it down to southeast Germany. I ended up hitchhiking with it.

Ursula Martin 13:36

With a kayak. With this kayak. It didn't come with a trolley so me and my friend, we went skip-diving, and I pulled out the framework - it's so inappropriate for a kayak because it was the framework of like those old ladies' pull-trolleys. So it was the back of one of those and the wheels were about four inches across, if that. If you know anything about transporting kayaks, you know that that size of wheel is useless, because the wheels go in the centre of the kayak. So as soon as you lift the kayak off the ground at one end, the other end dips down so it actually depends on the height that the wheels have lifted, the kayak off the ground to allow for the amount of room that it can tip. What that meant was I could only actually lift it about three centimetres off the ground, and then all of the weight of the kayak was was in my hand. Completely awful. Just ridiculous. But basically the moral of that story, the point of that story, the thing that freed me in that situation is that you can be constricted. You know you can have a situation in which you solve with money and it saves you time, but if you have unlimited time, then you can also solve the same problem. So I did go into a skip and get a stupid pair of wheels and ended up dragging the kayak to these service stations. Then it took me five days to hitchhike the length of Germany, which normally it takes about a day. But I got there.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 13:36

With a kayak?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:04

You got there, and you got there off the back of your own resolve, and creativity, and that actually is probably far more rewarding than putting your hand in your pocket and just buying your way there.

Ursula Martin 15:20

Yeah,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 15:21

You've learned so much about yourself and about the world... and about skip-diving!

Ursula Martin 15:27

Yeah, it's a complete liberation, because all these ways in which you feel like you are restricted, usually aren't, you just need to readjust your boundaries a little bit. So if you think I can't possibly go and do this journey, I haven't got enough money, you probably can you just do it, like a tramp, instead of like, you know, whatever. So that part of it, I would say, that sounds like that's a success part of that story. But actually, I face constant boundaries, in how much I believe in myself. I don't think I ever go into any of this, in this really strong, confident, forceful, like, 'Yes, I'm totally capable of doing this'. It's more like, I really want to do this. And I think I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to try it. Or I'm just going to have a go or I'm just going to do it no matter what. And even though I'm like, not necessarily physically the most capable person, or financially, I don't have big backers, I don't have lots of money behind me. There's this kind of scratching, like finding a way no matter what, but that is coming through huge boundaries, all the time of self-confidence and self-belief, and all kinds of things are stopping me all the time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 16:41

Yeah, I was just thinking, because I've actually written down here about how you appear to be very confident, and particularly around travelling solo and hitchhiking solo. You've obviously talked a little bit about where that's come from, but now I'm what I'm hearing is that there is potentially (and I've never really thought about this), but potentially a difference between confidence and self-belief or self-efficacy. It's that belief in yourself to be able to carry this off, and I think now, as I'm processing this, that that is different to confidence. Would you agree with that? Because confidence can sometimes appear to be a little bit out there and not abrupt, but almost arrogant? And I'm not suggesting that you are coming across as arrogant. But I'm almost thinking that a self-belief is much more sensitive to a confidence, if that's making sense.

Ursula Martin 17:35

I think so I definitely think a person can appear confident, even when they don't believe in themselves. Because I think for me, there's always this 'sod it, I'm going to do it anyway. Even if I'm crap and shit'. So one of the things that I realised in this counselling training, was that it was really important for me never to fail, and that's why I wasn't trying. There was this day, where there was something to do with this piece of homework that I was supposed to hand in. I gave it to the teacher, and she'd really brushed me off. She was like, 'thanks', and I realised that I'd created this situation where I'd had the opportunity to hand it to her and have it be mundane, and I hadn't. I'd kept it, and I'd waited until this moment where I was going to present it to her and she'd say 'thank you', and it would be like this moment. And she really blocked it because she was a trained counsellor, and she had sensations of what was going on. At that moment, I was like, that wasn't right, like, what did I do that for? You know, and I realised that there were these ways of performative success or something that I was very keyed into about kind of never been wrong or not failing. I think one of the things that I try as hard as I can to be is completely okay with failing. That also combines with this thinking, I'm crap all the time, and then spending years trying to hide being crap, and actually, I'm just going, 'I AM really crap. I'm doing it anyway'. Then that gives you this kind of ability to just go out and let that again, it's this letting go. I think that does come across as confidence. And it is confidence as well. Like, I am just going to go into a situation and 'let's just have a go at it' type of thing. But in that is simultaneously, the lack of self-belief. Just be crap. Just be crap at it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:22

You know, there were so many messages in there. As a teacher, I spent years trying to encourage high achieving girls, that they could fail, because there were many of them.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:33

Almost, some of them would not even give something ago because they were SO fearful of getting it wrong. Even to the point where I had a student who was potentially an A* (when it was back A* it's not anymore), but an A* student in my subject and she had a mock exam and she got a G. It was like really, what is going on here? And you know, we had about four months I think between that time and her actual exam, and she did end up getting a B, which was amazing. But you know, there was a lot of talk and a lot of encouragement that was needed in that time. Some of that stems from her family life, where she just felt she was under pressure to succeed in everything, and she couldn't. Or she felt that that was unattainable. And said 'well, if you know, if I can't attain perfect success in everything, then sod it, I won't do it at all. I won't give it a go'. So yeah, it's a big, big issue. And I'm really, really pleased that you brought that up.

Ursula Martin 19:34

Right, right.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:39

So can you think of a time then where you doubted your resilience? So you've obviously got that resilience there, and you're carrying it through with you now, but has in any of those journeys, that you've been on - Wales, or walking across Europe, and we'll talk about those in a bit more detail in a moment - but have you had any moments where you have doubted your ability or your resilience to cope with something?

Ursula Martin 21:00

To cope with something?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:02

And it might not be, you know, resilience? Gosh, you've got emotional resilience, haven't you? There's physical resilience. So it could come in many different forms. But were you ever in a situation where you were just going 'do you know, I really just can't do this anymore'.

Ursula Martin 21:20

Well, I have made decisions to change. So in the Pyrenees, for example, I was supposed to be doing the Haute Route. It's the hardest traverse in the Pyrenees, east-west traverse, and there was early snow, I had a couple of days where I was basically taking hours to climb a thing that should have taken an hour. Falling through snow, like ice bridges type-thing. Like snow, on top of, I was on a boulder field, basically, and it was covered in snow. So every step you would go down into your thigh or you would stay level. It was not only dangerous, but it was exhausting, and time-consuming. I went up and over a pass and then supposed to go straight and I came down to a mountain hut, I made the decision to go down and then come up again into the mountains. Because the only way was up and over more snow. For a couple of well, no about a week, I kept willing myself to go back up into the mountains, and then it would always come to it. And I'd go 'no'.

Ursula Martin 22:19

I was disappointed with myself for not making the ultimate attempt to do something that was as hard as I could. But I kind of also recognise that that's a fallacy, and in some ways, I think that I have very carefully created for myself a style of journey, which means that my resilience, like there is no success or failure within my journey, I could have walked the whole thing on road. I would still have walked across Europe and I would still have the success story. Or I could have planned every single mountain in my path. Also, the other thing is just there was no time limit on what I was doing. And nobody else was doing it. So there's no race. And there's no competition. Within all the ways in which I created this journey, I can actually be as tough or as not tough as I want to be. And so I was kind of gutted in myself that I didn't go up into the mountains. Also, it was fine. I was still in the Pyrenees, I was still at one and a half 2000 metres. I just wasn't above 2000 where the snow was, you know, and I'm still climbing easier mountains, and sleeping outside and blah, blah, blah and walking ten-fifteen miles a day. So in that sense, I tested myself, but I also never, I think I gave myself that ebb and flow of being able to cope. I have made a public journey, which has got me acclaim. As soon as anybody else does the same thing, they'll do it quicker than me. So in that sense, I've allowed for this ebb and flow of my own kind of resilience and patterns of coping or not coping and, you know, letting it go.

Ursula Martin 23:56

There's never been like, I mean, obviously, there have been catastrophes, like your tent breaks in a rainstorm, or you see a bear, or you drop one of your walking poles, and you have to lever yourself down a mountain to get it or just, you know, there's all these things that are like, okay, I might die here, carry on, you know, succeed or fail or die. Somehow, those kind of things don't test my resilience because you have to concentrate so hard. You just do it. And there does come a point in some of these situations where your eyes are like staring out of your head because you're concentrating so hard, where you've accidentally you know, got yourself in a situation where you're clinging to some trees to kind of get a bit back on the path or whatever it is. My resilience has not come to breaking in that kind of situation, because you're like, well, either I do this or I die. So get on with it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:50

Tell us about one of those stories then Ursula.

Ursula Martin 24:53

I mean, the easiest one is the bear just because that's very contained. That was the question of thinking that you're calm and then slowly realising that you're not calm at all. It was in the mountains in Bosnia. I'd come up into this, I think it's like, the Zelengore mountain range, in southern Bosnia. It was about a five day run with no shops or, you know, taken loads of food and I'd gone up and put my tent up, and I was just about to get in it, and I heard this kind of clicking noise, nearby. I looked up, and around and over, I don't know, thirty metres away, but on the other side of this kind of big, bold depression thing, so not thirty metres away in a straight line, you know, for it to get me, standing on a ledge was a bear.

Ursula Martin 25:40

I was like, okay, so all this thing, you know, it's like, what have you read on the internet about what to do when you see a bear? So I remembered all things. The first thing you do is gently make the bear aware of your presence. So I waved, and I went, "hi, Bear. A human is here". And I was like, "Oh, hi. Hello". And then the bear just turned and looked at me. And then and just turned and went. But what the amazing part was, was that it was like this Mexican wave because the bear was, I would say, I was over here. The bear looked at me and then dropped and left, but behind it came two children, baby bears., who both did exactly the same thing. They looked over where the mum was looking. Then they looked to here and then they dropped and left. So it was this one-two-three of beautiful flowing movement of amazing animals. Like, alright, okay, right. Okay. Okay. Okay. That was a bear. The bear's gone. Is the bear in the facility. No, the bear is not in the vicinity. Right. Can I see the bear? No. Okay, well, what do I do? Yeah, what right? I get in the tent, I suppose. And I got in the tent. And then I'm like, What am I doing? I can't sleep here. Can I really just like lie down on the ground and go unconscious in a place where I've literally just seen a bear? My mind was just racing was like, is it going to come back? What do I do? Dah da lah la.

Ursula Martin 27:07

And I just started talking to myself, because that's what I do, when I'm very under pressure. You talk and you talk yourself through that situation. So I'm like, okay, the bear knows where I am. The bear, come back. Yes. Should I be here when the bear comes back? No. Okay, pack up the tent. So you pack up the tent. And then I'm like, okay, just go down the mountain. But I'm going down the mountain. You know, if you'd said to yourself, if you'd asked me, at the time you say Ursula, are you calm? I'd be like, Yep, I'm fine. I've seen a bear, but it's no problem. And then I realised, like my eyes, they're pointing at my head, like about two inches. And I was so full of adrenaline. And it was just, it started to get to twilight, and I was coming down this, like rocky kind of bit. I had to really make sure that I was very careful about my footing and staying calm and not, you know, just I couldn't run down that mountain. It was a bit of a climb, like a bit of a scramble in places and, and I was like, okay, the sun is setting. I'm still in bear territory. But what the hell am I gonna do? I'll just put this tent up and sleep. And so did I put the tent up, and that was the first time that I've put - you're supposed to put your food outside the tent, basically. So I've put my food outside the tent.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:14

It's a bear bag, isn't it? I think, yeah. or a bear canister.

Ursula Martin 28:17

Yeah, a bear canister, but I didn't carry one of those, because they're very big and bulky. And heavy. And anyway, bears just run away when you... well, in my experience...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:27

I thought you were gonna say he just turned around and waved back. Oh, wow. That's an amazing story. That is well, yeah. Yeah. And, yes, there was no crisis there. But at the time, it was, yeah, a moment of like, realisation.

Ursula Martin 28:45

In that moment, you have that possibility that you curl into a ball and freak out and do nothing. And you, as a person on your own, have to force your brain to do the right things to get you through that crisis. I guess that is resilience, and the thing that confused me with that question is asking me for, like one example. But really, in an endurance challenge, you know, in what I did, the resilience is day after day after day. And I kind of talk, I think about it sometimes as in like being your own gym coach. So I'm simultaneously the person who's lying on the floor exhausted, and the person who's screaming in my own ear. And so that's, whenever I get to, I get to the end of a day, and you just want to go 'Oh jeez,' and you have to go. 'Put the tent up, get warm, look after your body temperature, eat something, drink some water, get in that sleeping bag, then collapse'. That's the resilience. That's the small resilience every day. You know.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 29:47

I know that. I do understand that. Yeah, gosh. Well, it sounds like you were making some very sensible decisions as well, regarding the Haute Route. You know, you said at some point you felt perhaps like you're a failure or or that you had... but then you had given yourself that freedom to not be failing, because you were making up your own rules. It was your journey. It was your own criteria. There were, there were no rules. And so yeah, so it was probably a very sensible decision coming down and walking the lower route. Again, with the bear, you know, you made a decision there. Your head's, going through all the what-ifs, and I guess you're mitigating all the possible risks, aren't you at that point? Because that's what we do, because we have to keep ourselves safe. And yeah, I think in that situation, I'd have probably done a similar thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 30:42

I don't know, was staying there an option? I guess it IS option, but I think I probably would have gone down. Then like you say, it's, it's twilight, so is because it's twilight, you're also putting yourself at risk of slipping, coming down that rocky descent. It's amazing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 31:00

So can we talk a little bit more about your walk across Europe? Yeah, I mean, that's your obviously your most recent journey and you've just returned back in June. I had the honour of walking with you a couple of days before you returned to Llanidloes, and that was a treat just to walk and talk with you and just, I don't know, feel some of that presence that you carry online. And this is going to sound like I'm a 'fan girl'. It's like, yeah. immersed in the aura of Ursula Martin!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 31:33

You know, I've been obviously communicating with you for many years now, and it just felt like such an appropriate moment. I'm living in South Wales, you're returning to mid-Wales. We both love to walk. We both appreciate being in the outdoors. It just felt so appropriate to come and walk with you. Just to be with you in those moments before the madness of returning. Because it was a big moment, coming back, wasn't it? Yeah. Let's take you back to the very start of your Europe journey. How did you get from Wales to Ukraine? I know there's something there that is quite special to you.

Ursula Martin 32:16

Yeah, I hitchhiked from Hook of Holland. Really, I started hitchhiking from Llanidloes. I got a lift off a friend and then it didn't end up working. So I've got a couple of trains across to the ferry and really hitchhiked from the ferry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:30

Yeah.

Ursula Martin 32:31

So from Holland to Ukraine. Yeah. Hitchhiking is a really important part of journeys to me as well, because you know, it's not necessarily this physical challenge. But it's also an adventure, and it's again, it's this coping with the unknown, which that's kind of a key part of what I call a challenge, a growth opportunity or a state of transition into a new sense of self. Hitchhiking is really important in that for me. So I hitchhiked to Ukraine to Kiev.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:02

Then coming into Kiev. You had a particular meeting with a guy that took you over the border.

Ursula Martin 33:13

Yeah, Igor, my first Ukrainian guy. So I talked about this in my talk the other night, which was a very cute moment, of him, basically him picking me up and saying I can't take you across the border because he was scared. It is this kind of hangover of communism, probably, you know, or excessive state oppression. As in. I don't know who you are. And I can't trust it's not okay. And so he was he said, I don't know who you are. I can't take you across the border. And then the journey went on for so long, and he was driving this tiny little kind of chugging VW van. At one point, he's just stopped and he started rubbing his eyes. And then he just keeled over and like, slept with his head on my leg. I was in the passenger seat just just like, okay, all right. Are you sleeping? Are you sleeping? Okay, you're just gonna sleep on my leg? Alright, fine.

Ursula Martin 34:07

It was really sweet. And then we got to the border. And I was like, Do you want me to get out? And he said, No. And we just looked at each other. And it was just this real little bonding moment of he slept on me, and then we trusted each other more, and then we carried on together into Ukraine.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:23

Massive trust, massive trust.

Ursula Martin 34:25

Yeah. Yeah, I don't know you do. I think people are more scared of hitchhiking than they should be, because there's a real bonding to just being in a car with somebody. And people say it about counselling as well don't they? When you're in a situation where you can talk without looking at each other.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:42

No eye contact? Yeah.

Ursula Martin 34:43

Yeah. I've heard that said about different styles of counselling where that can actually help people to communicate better, or to unload better. I have heard so many amazing life stories while hitchhiking, just beyond anything and it's a very intimate space. You bond and connect and, you know, you eat food together sometimes and especially lorry drivers because they're just used to being on the road, and this is their life, and essentially, you're invited into their house. So there's an immediate comfort in it, and relaxation. I think people don't appreciate that until they've done it a lot. Because it's all like, is this person gonna kill me? You know? Yeah. And it's not, it's not. Most of the time. It isn't about that at all. That is, that is what we've been conditioned to believe, isn't it to hitchhike? Because x, y, z might happen, and I think I'm very much of that ilk. Yet, it sounds so liberating, and it makes so much sense because I used to get the best conversations and the best information and the best offloads from my teenage daughter, when she was sat in the car, next to me, and we used to have the most amazing conversations then.

Ursula Martin 35:53

Yeah, so much less intense.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 35:55

Yeah, definitely. Definitely, and walking-talking, you know, when I've been on long distance walks, and I've met people, and we're just talking and walking, again, in the space of a couple of hours, you know, you've heard somebody's lifestory. And you're like 'whoa, how did how did that happen?' But yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So how many countries did you then pass through? So you've reached Kiev.

Ursula Martin 36:16

I reached Kiev, and I wanted to walk back home, not the direct way back through Poland, but I wanted to go and visit Bulgaria and the Balkans, because I had a lot of love for those countries after my Danube journey. I also wanted to go through Spain, because I also spent a lot of time in northern Spain about ten-eleven-twelve years ago. So it was a case of revisiting, I suppose, in a way but also just going to places connecting the places that I love. So it ended up technically, if England and Wales are separate, it was fourteen countries.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:51

Sorry, did you say fourteen then?

Ursula Martin 36:52

Fourteen, yeah. Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, Italy, France, and Dora, Spain, England, Wales, fourteen. Probably thirteen, really?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:10

You can count England.

Ursula Martin 37:11

I know I'm going for fourteen.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:13

I would go with that as well. Gosh, so yeah, you've met a lot of people in those places. You've experienced incredible landscapes, severe extremes of weather, I'm assuming. Can you recount any...?

Ursula Martin 37:29

Well, the first winter was in Romania, so it was actually the month of December was the hardest, because it had a very severe Siberian cold-snap. So there wasn't any snow, but there was frost. And I think the coldest night that I slept in was -14, in that period. Then fortunately, I went and had a winter Christmas break in Bucharest, and then when I came back, the snow had fallen, and it was heavy snow, but warmer, probably more like -5 to -10 at night, which is obviously still hard, but...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:57

Hawaiian!

Ursula Martin 38:00

-14 was a shock. Because I didn't have a good enough, I didn't have over the Christmas break, I'd got a heavier sleeping mat. So the -14 was really at the limit of what my equipment could cope with that night. And it was it was a very intense cold. I don't know how to describe it, I guess it's experience as well, because if I'd had the right equipment, -20, would have been an intense cold, you know, and I've had that experience at -five as well, when you're like, it just goes once it's kind of below about minus four, it starts to be serious business. You know, it's not like, I can just sit here for a couple of minutes. It's like there's a pressure to it, cold. There's an intensity of, there's a penetratingness to it. It's a slap.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:47

Did you struggle with it?

Ursula Martin 38:48

I don't like and I don't enjoy camping in snow.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:51

No.

Ursula Martin 38:51

It's hard work, and you have to be very careful camping and cold temperatures, you have to be careful all the time. And so especially when you're also dealing with that exhaustion that I was talking about, where in the summer or the spring-autumn, you can sit down for a few minutes before you put the tent up.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:10

Yes,

Ursula Martin 39:10

Even more so in the winter. It's like you have to do this right now. Because if you don't, you're going to spend two hours dealing with your lack of body temperature; your lowered body temperature.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:20

And you just can't get it back up again, then my guess is you've got to...

Ursula Martin 39:23

It's just that it takes longer. So every every bit that you drop, you are then going to be less comfortable in your sleeping bag for longer, while your body creates that temperature again, that you just lost. Yeah, yeah, you know. So I mean, you can do it do sit ups in a sleeping bag. You know, that's, that's basically the way to do it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:42

Was that something that you learnt, again, by experience, rather than by research?

Ursula Martin 39:47

Yeah, pretty much. You know, I don't think it's the best. You do research as you're going but I don't think you CAN imagine every eventuality. You do learn kind of, you know, you left your neck uncovered and look what happened. That's what you're gonna do again. Your nose is getting cold, I knitted myself a little nose warmer.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:07

A condom for your nose!

Ursula Martin 40:09

I had a little string around there. I didn't use it all that much. But you know, there are these things of like, you know, you can read online about condensation in a tent.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:19

Yeah.

Ursula Martin 40:20

Until you've really kind of lived with it and dealt with it, and how does your breath affect the way the, what fabrics are around your face as you're trying to sleep? And how to cover and how to uncover. It is experience, you know, you do have to go out there and try it. Just don't go out at -14 for your first night out. Go out at zero and then go out at -3 and ease yourself into it. And that's how you learn. Just trying it. Just having a go. Because otherwise you're trying to absorb ALL the information about ALL the potential things that might happen. And you're worrying about whether you're in control of every single eventuality. I don't work that way. And you're doomed to failure, because you'll always be thinking, is there something I haven't covered before I get out there? Actually, you just need to get out there and do it, and you will learn and you probably won't die.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:12

That is gold. That is absolute diamond advice? Yeah, because the more you research, and I'm guilty of that, the more you research, the more you over-plan, the more you overanalyze, the less likely you are to go and do it. Because you are now thinking, I've got to sort this, I got to, you know, make sure I've got that in place. Yes. So, no,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:34

And what if there's a monsoon? And what if there's, you know, and like, I like the fuzzy logic kind of sense of preparation, as in I'm kind of pretty much aware that I will probably cope with whatever happens to me. I have it within myself to make good decisions in that moment. I've shown myself that I do, over and over again. So even if I've got wet kit, because I didn't keep everything in five dry bags inside my rucksack, I'm going to be fine. But a lot of people are stuck in that sense of armour, and that's not my thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 42:09

Important message, thank you. So you've moved through these countries, and you're communicating and connecting with different cultures, different people, making some really incredible connections, I would imagine. I mean, I was at your talk on Sunday in Kington, and there were some very moving moments there where you shared connections you'd made with specific women. Then you move into an area or, not an area, you move into a time that you hadn't planned on, that nobody could ever have planned for. And that's when you reach Italy. I hate to mention it because I know a lot of us are trying to avoid this conversation, but you walked, you were having to walk through a lockdown. And suddenly you're thrown into a sense of panic, I would imagine? No people, but how did you deal with this? What was going on in your head? Yeah, how did it pan out for you?

Ursula Martin 43:09

There have just been so many stages to the pandemic, as we've all experienced. You know, the growing concern that something was very wrong. The realisation that we couldn't avoid it. The complete fear and anxiety about a massive shift in societal behaviour. And then the fighting of you know, is this the right thing to do? What is the right thing to do? I think globally and as individual countries, every government has been working that out, as nobody had a proper plan for this. No, we've all been flying by the seat of our pants globally, structurally and individually. And so yeah, be oh, well, I basically have been intensely vulnerable during the pandemic, because I'm homeless. I was homeless in Italy during a pandemic, I was a tourist. But it was a very particular unusual type of tourist who was walking and sleeping in forests and sleeping outside.

Ursula Martin 44:07

But what happened was, I basically made it into France, two, three days before their lockdown happens, and managed to get a friend's sister's holiday home to stay in. So I did have a safe place to go. About 200 kilometres away on the train, I was incredibly grateful to have that, and I was there for three months of the first lockdown. I was so alone. The hard part of the pandemic, for me was intense vulnerability, and intense loneliness, and basically having to rely on having no safe place. You know, you think you can go off travelling and test yourself, and then all of a sudden shit hits the fan, and it gets even harder. And so I definitely struggled and suffered with loneliness during the pandemic, especially during that first lockdown. I did keep on walking. There was always this decision about what are the rules here? Is it safe? What am I going to do? How do I keep walking, you know, in some ways, I'm actually a very low risk person. Because I was walking alone. I'd spend most of my time five nights a week sleeping outside, and I'd go into a B&B one or two nights a week for a day off. I'd go into bars and restaurants, but I wasn't mixing with people.

Ursula Martin 44:07

So the short version of what happened is that I was walking across northern Italy, during January, February. And in early March, Italy was the first country that went into lockdown. I didn't know what was happening, and I wasn't able to easily get somewhere to live. To stay. I wasn't able to go into a house or a hotel in Italy, and I was so close to the border, and I just thought I'm gonna walk across the border. So I had this seven, I can't remember seven or ten days of feeling like a fugitive, and just being so worried about what was happening. Walking out of Italy in that time, it just felt apocalyptic in some ways. I kept walking on all these closed roads, where the roads were like sliding away down the mountainside. Then I walked, the last village I was in was this ski resort village. So everywhere was close. All the houses are shuttered and closed anyway, and they were in mist, and I was like walking through trying to get out of the country and just feeling like our foundations to society were shaken. For everybody, I think. In terms of how do we interact, and what do we access, and where does our money come from all these really fundamental things, affected everybody. And so I was feeling all that fear, with nowhere safe to go as well. So it's very intense for me.

Ursula Martin 46:43

For me, there was this constant assessment of my behaviour of, okay, I'm doing this thing called travelling, which were not supposed to do. Well, nobody could come from England into France to do what I was doing. But I was already there anyway. And people could drive from Germany to come and be tourists. There was this constant kind of, there was no easy answer about, yes, you're doing the right thing. No, you're not. Are you legally allowed to do this? Are you not, it was so many rules were changing all the time. And I just basically walked when I could, and stopped when I had to. And it was really hard. It was really hard at times. Over the summer, I walked through South of France. So that was the other extreme weather temperature was up to, you know, 35 degrees in the south of France in full summer heat. That was a completely different temperature and climate shift to cope with, you know, making sure you're hydrated and don't get sunstroke and stuff. And then I came into the Pyrenees, and that was in the autumn. That was when their cases had kind of dropped over the summer, and then they were starting to rise again in Spain and France. Did the Pyrenean Traverse, and then there were, well it's funny because I say there were loads of infections in Spain at that time. But actually, since then, it's infections that felt like a lot, then, and now we have much higher infection rate, and we seem to be treating it as if it's no big deal. So it's bizarre because there is never actually any time to pinpoint a time in the pandemic, where we understand it, what was happening in terms of what's happening now, because everything has really been shifting in terms of the amount of fear the amount of regulations and the amount of infection. And so it was all very particular to a point in time. I can't define it now and have us understand it because I was shocked that there were one in 1000 people had Coronavirus in La Rioche in that time, but actually, one in 1300 people in this country have got Coronavirus right now, and we're treating it like it's no big deal.

Ursula Martin 48:44

So that yeah, it's hard to give it definition now in a way that we understand what was happening back then if you still I mean.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:50

Yeah, there's no previous benchmark to follow, because it's just hasn't happened.

Ursula Martin 48:55

Everything was so reactive to what was happening in that moment. And basically I went into a second French lockdown for six weeks, and then I made the decision to enter Spain. Walked across the top of Spain. It was January, February, March, by that point. There was more snow. I was on the Camino de Santiago which had virtually shut down because of the lack of international travel.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 49:15

Which route were you on Ursula?

Ursula Martin 49:17

I walked the French route to Finisterre and then I walked the Primitivo and the Camino del Norte, back to Santander. I had a third lockdown in Ponferrada for a month, the month of February I had a third lockdown, because Galicia was very, very closed at that point. And so it was just this case of like not giving up on it, basically. It was this real, you know, I guess at that point, you really see how much the journey means to you. Because you're not going to give it up. You're going to stay by hook or by crook. I got to Finisterre basically, and I suffered and struggled to get there, with the emotional intensity of the pandemic, in addition to the physical intensity of walking thousands of miles and camping and you know all the journey strains. And then the bloody pandemic, the anxiety of the pandemic, on top of that was so intense. It was so intense.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:11

I can imagine. And I've walked the Camino de Santiago. I've walked that with Mike in 2016, that was our honeymoon... our HoneyWalk. And it was just so full of people. We both said it was the most sociable walk we have ever done. And you know, every time you come into a town, there are people sat around the tables, outside bars and cafes, and they're cheering you, as you come in. And I can imagine all you had was tumbleweed. The proverbial tumbleweed, just rolling through each of these towns and villages as you pass through. I've walked it with you, in my mind in my memory, because I was imagining all of these places as I knew them. And what you're experiencing was not a Camino that anybody I think has ever as I experienced.

Ursula Martin 50:58

There were others on the Camino. It's just that I didn't see them. I followed a guy's footprints in the snow for three or four days. Because the way the weather was very particular, it snowed and froze, and then stayed below freezing for a week, day and night. So this guy's footprints were frozen in the snow.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:18

Oh, amazing. So it was like you were chasing him.

Ursula Martin 51:22

I was trying to catch because I wanted somebody to talk to.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:26

Did you?

Ursula Martin 51:27

He had these very particular boots, so it was I knew it was always him. And they were big feet as well, so probably a guy. So there were other people. I don't want to give the impression that I was the only person on the whole Camino. I was the only pilgrim I met. But there were others. It's just that instead of having in the depths of winter, thirty to fifty people sleeping in each town each night, you probably had about five people on the entire route.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:53

But you see to me that IS empty. That's just not natural for that area. The last 100 kilometres, particularly this year, which is a Holy Year. 2021 was the Holy Year wasn't it for the Camino. And so it should have been even more full than usual. But that last 100 kilometres, people get bused in just to walk the last 100 kilometres. So you can guarantee that last few days of walking the Camino, there's thousands of people and it's like a motorway, it's so busy, and I just can't get my head round how that must have felt for you. Can you describe how you felt as you walked into Santiago?

Ursula Martin 52:34

I felt really sad walking in Santiago, because I imagined... oh I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry again. Because I imagined what it would be like with loads of other people and you'd have this, where you'd be part of a wave of the joy of arrival and this push and this peak of exhilaration, and there wasn't anyone there. It was just me and I really felt the lack of it. But in other ways, walking the rest of the Camino was kind of weird, but also normal, because I'd been on my own for the whole journey, and I'd expected and wanted other pilgrims. But when they weren't there, some parts of it, were just, I'm just back in the mechanics of walking alone, and this is normal. I had really wanted that challenge of being around other people, almost to bring yourself down from this kind of 'solitary hero' sense of it. Because I do wish I'd have that kind of grounding in other people's challenges as well. So you're not kind of carried away with your own heroics all the time, it would have been a challenge for me of how to compare my journey to others. With something that's so huge and so extreme, and how do you find the similarities of challenge and transformation in what other people are experiencing? Even though for me, it was a very easy section.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 53:49

Yes. Yes. Yeah, physically.

Ursula Martin 53:51

So I missed that. I missed other people, and I felt yeah, walking in Santiago was just massive. And an anti-climax all at once.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 54:01

Yeah, I feel that. It's an experience that you'll never forget. You'll carry that with you for a long time. And one that not very many other people will have experienced doing that empty.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 54:11

I'm going to fast forward you to the UK now, because by extreme contrast, your experience of Santiago and moving on to Finisterre, you did reach Finisterre, which is we should explain to some of the listeners that maybe don't know about Finisterre is the coastline, the far end of the Camino.

Ursula Martin 54:33

The Atlantic Ocean.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 54:34

The Atlantic Ocean, yeah, amazing.

Ursula Martin 54:36

That was massive, to arrive at the ocean, from Kiev, and to know that I talked all that way. It was just... that was my kind of mind-blowing achievement moment of this ultimate, 'you've walked as far as the sea, all that way across the continent and you've always been heading in this one direction. And now you can't go any further and you made it', and there was the sea, you know. Wide, wide wide open. It was fantastic. It was really fantastic. There was that was a real achievement.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:10

And that's yeah, that is like nature's recognition to you, and every time you look at a map, you must go, oh, my gosh, I've walked that.

Ursula Martin 55:17

Yeah, just once it gets bigger and bigger, you're like, 'look at that!'

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:23

And don't you have a different relationship now with physical maps, because I know, (when I used to have a kitchen), I used to have a huge map of the UK on the wall. And every time I'd walked a different route or a different path, I would feel differently towards that area, and that map. You know, that association with people, places, feelings that I've had that I didn't know that, do you find that that?

Ursula Martin 55:50

Yeah, I guess it's just all your memories are contained in that route, aren't they? And you know it and you've been there and yeah, yeah, it's interesting to go to do another walk where I haven't been, you know, because now I've come back to Wales, and I know, I know Wales intimately. And so it's very comforting and I can really relate to all so much of Wales, because I've walked it so intensely. Yeah. And I'm hopefully planning to do another walk starting in January, which is going to be Land's End - John O'Groats. And actually that's going to be really nice to explore England and Scotland, where I haven't really walked before. Things like the Cotswold Way the Pennine Way, the West Highland Way. All these places that I haven't walked before, yet I know them culturally. And, you know, I know the imagery, but I'm going to explore them. I'm going to explore my own country and I think that's going to be really exciting.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:42

Yeah, and that will connect you even deeper to yeah, those places and...

Ursula Martin 56:46

My country.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:47

Your country. Yes, you were born in England?

Ursula Martin 56:50

I was born in Wales. My country is Britain. I sometimes I split myself. I am neither Welsh nor English, really. I'm culturally, English, and then, yeah, the Welsh and I don't know. So I just I tend to say I'm British. This is my island.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 57:08

The contrast then between walking Spain and then reaching the last few days of your journey. Coming back to Llanidloes. Can you just talk us through those moments those, those emotions? Yeah, what was going on for you there.

Ursula Martin 57:27

It was physically very difficult. I started to be in a lot of pain after Finisterre, and it never really went away. Because every time I stopped, I was resting, but I wasn't resting, and I just had lots of pain in my legs and feet, and my back, and my shoulders, and it hurt everywhere. It just didn't seem to stop. So I had all these stops starting parts of the journey where I couldn't get a ferry until a certain point. They weren't open to foot passengers. So I had more time than I needed to walk back from Finisterre to Santander. I could go like eight to ten miles a day, but actually, you were still putting in kind of 75% of the effort for 50% of the distance. So it didn't actually work. And then I had to wait in Santander and then I had to wait for the quarantine. But somehow I didn't, my body didn't rest and relax. And so when I started again from Portsmouth, I was in a lot of pain, physically but somehow I just pushed through it and was so focused on the end.

Ursula Martin 58:34

I was meeting lots of people at that point, I have lots of people for the first time in the journey, I had loads of different people coming out to walk with me. So that was this kind of hyper sense. I think I got more and more keyed up in a social sense, being happy to see people and chatting and I'm really interested to see how you feel I was on that. It was kind of two or three days before the end. Because I was so tired but in so much pain but somehow still functioning I don't know. How do you feel about how I was functioning?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:06

I got a sense you were more than functioning. I didn't see pain. I know we talked about it, but I didn't see it. You didn't look like you were in pain. You were, you were tired. I could see you were tired and I could see you were emotionally tired as well. And I got a sense that was, although you were being buoyed up by the amount of people that you had been walking with, I think you are also feeling quite drained as well. Because walking for so long with such little human contact, and then suddenly you're having to give of yourself to everybody so much, all the time and talking to them, I think yeah, I got a sense that perhaps was hard. Apart from being tired. I just sensed that you were on this even keel and that is how you always appear to me Ursula you always... whether or not inside, you are kind of up and down, up and down or paddling furiously to try and keep yourself, you know, and your emotions and whatever's going on. Actually, you just always appear to be this stoic force that just, is just a quiet strength, a quiet strength. And that is how you came across.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:00:22

I will never forget the moment where we're walking over the Radnor Hills, and I'm talking to you about, you know, my fears, and particularly of heights and walking up the side of Pen-y-Ghent, actually scrambling up the side of Pen-y-Ghent, and how I dealt with that. We had the views, we all stopped and looked at the views. And we had the Beacons one way and we had the mountains of Snowdonia, in another direction. You were able to stand up there and pinpoint all of these areas. And that was a very special moment, because we were sharing that together. But then you said to me, Zoe, how would you have dealt with that scramble up the side of Pen-y-Ghent, in the wind and the rain and dealing with the heights if Mike hadn't been there? And I went, 'Yeah, you're right. I'd have just got on with it'. And, you know, there wasn't drama, but there was a lot of drama going on inside my head, and I think yeah, probably there would have been less drama had I been on my own.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:20

So anyway, I digressed slightly there. But yes, that was my experience and my snapshot of that day. And it was a very, very special day, which I felt honored to be able to be part of that.

Ursula Martin 1:01:33

No, don't be honoured. It was it was really lovely because of everybody who was there. Yeah, it was just a really nice group.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:39

I don't know if it was concocted. I don't think it was but in my eye, this was complete coincidence. I contacted you because I wanted to walk with you, and unbeknown to me Hannah Engelkamp, who is Seaside Donkey for those people who don't know, on Instagram. She walked around Wales with a donkey a few years ago, and also a friend of mine, happened to be walking with Ursula that day. And in addition, it turns out that my other good friend, Arry, Arry Cain, who ran around Wales in 2012, was the first woman to run around Wales. She was also walking with you that day. So there's four of us together, and it was the first time I've met you face-to-face. But I still felt like you were a friend of mine. You know, we had that connection. We had been communicating for quite a few years on whatever social media it was. And then we had your uncle and auntie, and they just kind of brought us all together. I mean, they're just a breath of fresh air, and it was so lovely to walk and talk with them, too. So it was a beautiful group. Amazing that we had so many connections, and that we all walked together on the same day, and that it felt so peaceful. It felt like it didn't have the hype of somebody else, maybe joining the group that was a follower or a fan. And I do that in air quotes that might have been maybe in your face a bit more. It just felt so normal and natural, and it's just like, Yeah, we were going girls on a hike. You know, it was lovely.

Ursula Martin 1:03:13

It was a really great day. Yeah. And that was just was really nice. I felt, I guess I think I would say spaced out a lot during that time. Because I don't know, it's like being on the surface of a balloon or something. I guess I just felt so stretched, thin. And I was still able to do it all, but I knew I couldn't do it for much longer, and I wasn't going to have to and that's when you can start to feel like you're going to collapse. Yeah, it's so like a hallucinatory, you know, like when you've stayed up all night kind of feeling and you're just...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:03:47

Whoo, space cadet...!

Ursula Martin 1:03:49

Stuff will happen to you, and you'll talk about it and it's fine. You're, you know, you're functioning. But you're also really not only half on the planet.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:03:58

Yeah, half present. You reach Llanidloes, and what a moment. I mean, I almost wish I had been there. I couldn't make it. I forget now why I couldn't make it. But oh my gosh, the photos and the sound, the videos. Talk just, yeah, just talk us through those moments.

Ursula Martin 1:04:17

I mean, that's why, I mean, it really was starting, it was already happening, that very slow buildup of emotion. What had happened was, that for that day, I had been able to say, I'm going to be starting at this point you know I can't remember how far twelve or so miles away from Llanidloes at this time, and then whoever wants to come can come and join me. And there were other points where people could come. So about, I don't know, six or seven different friends came to the start of the day, and so there was a train of people, and more and more people kept coming in and at one point, this really good friend of mine came walking towards the field, over the field towards me, and her and her boyfriend were carrying this set of bunting on two sticks. And they walked beside me for the rest of the journey, so I was walking underneath this train of flags. And then more people waiting on the side of the track, and it just became this kind of procession going down into the town.

Ursula Martin 1:05:16

And I could feel this, like, it was like the kind of emotion where you're where you start speaking in tongues, I could feel I was gonna lose it. Because I was just so like, whaaaaa. It was this build up, build up. And I didn't know what was going to happen. All I knew was that I wanted to walk up the centre of the main street. I'd said, I will be there at this time, and I had no idea who was going to be there, or how many people and we came around the bottom of the market hall. And there it was, this moment of, I was there, and I just shouted, so loudly. And it was absolutely brilliant. Because that was the truest again, letting go. And just not being embarrassed to shout or swear or just lose your shit, basically. I just lost it all the way up that street, and I was just shouting and like, yeah! Just pointing at people that I knew and just like 'you are here!' and just this complete burst of celebration, and it was just so good. It was everything. It was all it could possibly have been, you know that first shout really came, you know, deeper than my pelvis. It came from my boots. The whole of my body was able to handle that force. I didn't suppress it in any way. All of my body participated in bringing out this huge shout of joy and force.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:06:44

It looked like such a burst of energy. It was, oh, it just catapulted from you. And it looked really primal, from what I could see.

Ursula Martin 1:06:55

Yeah, it really was.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:06:55

And the photographs captured a burst of energy that came out beautifully. What a fitting celebration as well, for how many years were you on the road? In the end? Or on the path?

Ursula Martin 1:07:07

It was two years, nine months.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:07:09

Two years, nine months. And you had gone through so much. Up here in your head, and physically. Yeah, there's there was so much that you've been through and with the pandemic, adding to that as well then to have that very fitting celebration, and you deserved, totally deserved all of those people to be there and just cheer you in. I'm so pleased that you had that. So pleased.

Ursula Martin 1:07:37

Oh yeah, it was wonderful.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:07:38

Wonderful.

Ursula Martin 1:07:39

It was a wonderful day.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:07:40

Oh, well, Ursula, we are coming to the end of our conversation, now. To be honest, I mean, I could carry on for another hour listening to you, because I don't normally have quite so many questions written down on the page. But I have SO many here, and maybe it's something one day, we can come back and have a second conversation, because you have so many amazing stories to share. And we obviously only have a certain amount of time, which we can fit it in!

Ursula Martin 1:08:08

It's interesting. That's what I realised, when I gave the first talk just a few days ago about the walk, is I've almost done too much stuff to talk about. So there is a change of style now, where I can get more abstract, if you see what I mean. To where you are talking about motivations and coping skills rather than I climbed this mountain. I climbed that mountain. Do you see what I mean? And I think there is the ability to move into a more abstract sense of, you know, a different conversation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:08:37

Yes, yes.

Ursula Martin 1:08:37

Where it isn't the story of the journey anymore.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:08:39

Yes. People want to hear the story of the journey, but yeah, definitely the focus of HeadRightOut is always going to be about well, how did you face these issues, these barriers? Or how did you achieve that particular outcome, despite going through X, Y, Z, whatever it was, you went through?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:08:57

There is one last question Ursula, and that is the question I ask everybody. I'm collecting HeadRightOut Moments. I'm wondering, have you had an experience, a moment where you can recount that you have totally and utterly headed out of your comfort zone, but you have succeeded... or not? Because success is, as we've discussed, it doesn't matter sometimes if you fail, because failure is only you know, the limitation that you give yourself, but have you experienced a benefit as a result of heading out of your comfort zone? Because that's the message that I'm trying to get across to other midlife women? Yeah. Is there something that you can pinpoint as your HeadRightOut Moment?

Ursula Martin 1:09:40

Yes, it's not necessarily going to fit in with the adventuring story, but actually, it's life modelling.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:09:46

Okay,

Ursula Martin 1:09:46

Because I've been I've been a life model. I think I first did it in about 2008 or so. I've done it at various points, and I've always been a fat person at the same time. So there was this real, like, shame and embarrassment about my body because it's not perfect, you know, because it's not thin. And life modelling was this huge way for me to be comfortable with my body, or to become more comfortable with my body. But that moment where I just was like, I'll see if they want a life model. Yes, they did. Okay, what time you want me to turn up, I turn up, and I go behind the curtain, and I'm like, Holy Shit!

Ursula Martin 1:10:26

I'm gonna take my clothes off in front of all these people! And I just was like, behind this curtain, I just had this moment of like, you well you said, you're gonna do this. And now you've got to do it. And, you know, I just went out there. And then the moment you actually are naked in front of people, nothing matters, it doesn't matter at all. You're just, you're just a body, and you're not the worst, you're not THE most unattractive person, there's ever been in the world, because that's what my brain is telling me all the time. As I say, there's this sense of complete normality about it. And so that I'd say is one of the moments where I have really pushed through a fear, and then found out that everything was fine, on the other side, you know.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:11:08

Liberating, and I've done hours, many, many hours of life drawing, and really appreciated the models that weren't just stick-thin. There's so much more to give, and so much more to draw and to appreciate, in a fuller figure. Yeah, I can totally see where you're coming from there, and I would be fearful, but I could also see how liberating that would be too. Thank you, thank you for sharing that. I wasn't expecting that at all. I was thinking it's gonna be like, you know, stepping out of the tent when I thought there was going to be a bear there!

Ursula Martin 1:11:45

Oh I have myriad life experiences, not all of which I share at the same time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:11:51

Brilliant. Ursula, where can people discover a bit more about you if they want to come and search and investigate and buy your book? And this is your book of Wales, and you are currently in the throes of writing your new book, as well, so well, we'll watch that space. But where can they find you?

Ursula Martin 1:12:11

So I'm mostly called One Woman Walks on everything. onewomanwalks.com, is my website, and then it's the same on Facebook and Instagram. On Twitter, I think I'm One Woman Walks Wales, but you can find me. The website's the main place. There's all the blogs from the whole journey from the whole Europe walk, most of the blogs are still on the website. So it includes things like kit lists, if people are interested in that. How I dealt with plantar fasciitis is quite a good one, just loads of stuff. And then all the, you know, the lovely stories about people that I've met and different experiences, and so on. So there's plenty of reading material - or they can wait for the book.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:12:48

Everything from landscape to people to stop. And everything in between.

Ursula Martin 1:12:53

Yeah!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:12:54

Is there anything Ursula that we've not talked about, that you would have liked to have had the opportunity to mention?

Ursula Martin 1:13:01

I would, I just think that disconnect between how I come across and how I am on the inside is really something that I would emphasise, you know, I'm really not actually all that confident of a person. And I definitely was not originally, before I started all this, I was very flawed and broken, you know, not mentally healthy. And I have shown myself what I can do. And that has built confidence within me, because I'm more certain of myself. And what I can endure. A lot of people want to put me separate to them as in, I could never do what you do. And that's not, if it's all in your head, then that's not true. Because I have got out there and done it. And that's nothing to do with, I don't know if that's my strength of will, basically. So it is accessible to many more people than they realise, and don't put me on a pedestal or don't make me different. Don't make me a hero, because I'm not.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:14:00

Wow, that's I've actually I've got tears in my eyes there. That is such a passionate message, and I thank you. Ursula Martin, thank you so much for coming on HeadRightOut. I hope we'll get an opportunity to have a conversation again at some point soon.

Ursula Martin 1:14:17

Thank you, it's a pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:14:26

Oh, yes! What an episode to complete the series with. I could listen to Ursula for hours. Her voice is soothing, it's calm, and yet his stories pack such a punch. She has such a great way of telling them, don't you think?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:14:48

Now I'm not sharing a HeadRightOut Moment with you this week. But I do want to let you know that right here, I will be heading right out of my comfort zone on Friday. When hopefully, I get to do my ScarySkyDive - eeeek! That will appear during the coming weeks as a bonus outdoor episode. I also spent this last weekend just gone doing a two-day navigation course with the South Wales Adventure Queens. And so I'll be creating another bonus episode, from the hours of content that I've recorded with some amazing women.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:15:26

Now the name of the outdoor episodes was put to a vote. And while I ended up with lots of suggestions, which I thank you for, the out and out winner was, and you'll see what I did there in a minute, HeadRightOut Out. I'm not just HeadingRightOut, I'm HeadingRightOut Out. I love it. So thanks to Sharon Merredew, for coming up with that winning name. And I'm going to be popping a t-shirt in the post to you, Sharon as a thank you. I know you didn't expect that. I know I didn't advertise I was going to do that. But I have a spare t-shirt, and that's what I'm going to do.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:16:05

Now, I'm taking a six-week break between Series One and Two, to allow myself time to record and edit more quality content for you. And I also have a move back to the boat to do. Mum's potentially moving back home from respite and exciting, I'm due to become a nanny, imminently. So I need to make sure that during this time, I am fully present and available for all these massive personal events that are happening.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:16:37

So I hope you'll understand. HeadRightOut will return on Wednesday 22nd of December, just in time for your Christmas listening. So if the Christmas movies are all repeats, and it all gets a bit much for you, you can just sink into some HeadRightOut Podcasts and take yourself off to another place.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:16:58

Now lastly, before I go, I have a fabulous range of giveaways to share with you. I'm afraid these are UK-based only however, so please don't enter if you live abroad. I have first off, Nahla Summers' book, The Accidental adventurer, and that is what we talked about in Episode Nine, the last episode.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:17:25

I also have Julia Goodfellow-Smith's book, Live Your Bucket List - that's from Episode One. Do go back and listen to these episodes, if you can't remember them, or if you haven't listened to them yet.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:17:36

And I've purchased Ursula Martin's book, from this episode, Episode Ten, One Woman Walks Wales. I've also got a copy myself, which was gifted to me by Ursula's auntie, and I'm looking forward to reading it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:17:53

There are two technical T shirts with HeadRightOut, and if you take a look on the website, in the shownotes, you will see pictures of all of these items that you can win. It will also be on my Instagram stories, and it will be on my Instagram grid.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:18:11

So here's what you need to do. You need to hit the Follow button for HeadRightOut in your podcast app. Then come back to Instagram and comment below with 'DONE' and the name of the platform that you listen on, then tag a friend... e.g. 'DONE', I follow on Stitcher and the name of your friend 'Josephine Blaggs'. Sorry, yeah, I made that one up.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:18:32

Make sure you're following my Instagram account too, to ensure I can see your comments. That really helps. Winners will be picked randomly after the giveaway closes at 9pm on Wednesday, 17th of November. You can state in the comment if you have a preference of prize, but I'm afraid I can't promise to honour that, because it just depends on what's left. So good luck with a giveaway. Remember, you have to enter it to be in with a chance of winning something. So please, please, please enter and please continue to tell your friends about the podcast.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:19:05

HeadRightOut is just fifteen downloads away from the first milestone of one thousand! That is so exciting for me! Have a great few weeks. Enjoy the HeadRightOut Out episodes, when they land and don't forget, keep doing the things that scare you. The things that you didn't believe you were capable of. You ARE capable of so much and your head will thank you for it later. I promise. That's the nature of type two fun.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:19:33

HeadRightOut Hugs to you all.
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An Accidental Adventurer and a World Record: collecting kindness acts and building resilience - 009: Nahla Summers
3 nov 2021· HeadRightOut
Self-described as a ‘blind optimist’, Nahla cycled 3000 miles across America, despite not having owned a bike in twenty years and walked 500 miles the length of England, relying only on the kindness of strangers. In 2020, she made a world record by travelling 5007 miles on an ElliptiGO bike, through every UK city, in the middle of a pandemic. At the same time she was creating the biggest Strava art in England that spelled out the word, ‘KINDNESS’. Nahla's unique selling point is that she completes these challenges, asking for people to pledge an act of kindness for a stranger, rather than sponsoring money to a charity. Founder of the Sunshine People and a Culture of Kindness, Nahla has built up a strong following, inspiring others to use kindness to effect change, worldwide. Her profound experience of kindness during a period of deep grief led her to build her resolve to ensure others, at both a corporate and social level would benefit from kindness too. She has learned how to face fear and difficulties positively, by changing her mindset and encourages everyone to work on their self-belief by telling themselves, ‘I am enough’. Her new book, The Accidental Adventurer launched on November 1st 2021.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:14

Hello, and welcome back to HeadRightOut, the podcast that is here to encourage you to step out of your comfort zone and do things that scare you on a regular basis.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:26

My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen. I'm a writer, speaker, midlife adventure seeker - ooh, that rhymes. I'm a teacher, an artist, long-distance walker, plus a daughter, a mother and a wife. There are so many things that we all know we are, and there's so many more things that we could be. I wonder how many things you've wanted to do, but have never quite managed to get your head round doing them. Because they all feel a bit daunting or a bit big. Perhaps you think a bit TOO big for you? But believe me... they're not.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:08

Today, I have an amazing woman that's come to chat to us. Obviously, this is all about inspiring you to head out of your comfort zone, do something that scares you, and I think that this person is the most ideal person this week to talk to us. Nahla Summers is just an incredible woman that I've been following for years now and we actually had the pleasure of meeting up about eighteen months ago, and we had a great conversation. She is going to talk to us about her adventures that she's been on and what she does.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:45

Hello Nahla!

Nahla Summers 01:50

Well what an introduction and oh, I hope I meet the criteria of that. But thank you so much. That's ever so kind of you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:59

I am just delighted that you agreed to come on the pod. So I'm going to read a bio for you Nahla. This is something that I think just encapsulates who you are, what you do in a nutshell, and then we'll kind of dig down into that a little bit more and just tease out some of the things that we both think are going to be of particular interest to our listeners.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:19

Nahla Summers is a cultural change consultant, award winner, author, public speaker, podcaster and the driving force behind a culture of kindness and '44 Rays of Sunshine'; it won the most inspirational book in 2017. Her story and how she overcame adversity has been inspiring businesses and people around the world. Nahla is the founder of Sunshine People, the social movement that inspired her to carry out yearly adventures to highlight the power that kindness has to transform societies. She was awarded a Point of Light Award from the Prime Minister for transforming the concept of sponsorship. Nahla cycled 3000 miles across America having not owned a bike in 20 years, she walked 500 miles from South to North England, relying only on the kindness of strangers. And in 2020, she made a world record by going 5007 miles on an ElliptiGO bike through every city in the UK, in the middle of a pandemic whilst also producing the biggest Strava art in England by writing kindness across it. Nahla's unique selling point is that she completes these challenges and asks people to show their support by doing an act of kindness for a stranger, rather than sponsoring money to a charity.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:36

As the founder of the CIC, Sunshine People, every year, she takes on a new challenge, and every year, she discovers something new about the power that kindness has on people. As an author of several books, including an award winning book in 2017, Nahla is an inspiring and established speaker. Among the many messages that she delivers, she shares how we can change the chatter in our minds to allow us to achieve anything we dream of how resilience is built, and when the world gives us lemons, how we can in fact, make lemonade. How the actions of one can change the world and therefore what we each do, really does matter. Nahla gives every leader, and every person that listens to her, the knowledge that they too can do anything they wish to. If SHE can, they most definitely can.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 04:29

Wow, that to me Nahla is what HeadRightOut is all about. It's all about resilience. It's all about facing those fears and saying but if they can do it, so can I. So, where did this start? Are you happy to share some of your background to tell us how Sunshine People and how this facing fears and resilience building started, and the Culture of Kindness. You know, that's Sunshine People.

Nahla Summers 04:57

Yeah, it was really around understanding, and this is not meant to sound depressing in any way, but it was really understanding my own mortality and the death of my partner who I was living with at the time. When he died very suddenly of a heart attack, while he was on a charity cycle ride, he wasn't much of a cyclist, and he hadn't done loads of training, but he had gone out, on this work thing. He didn't know if he'd finish it, but he was going to go out and have a go. You know, I was dropping him off for a cycle ride and two hours later, he was calling me, telling me he thought he was having a heart attack. I think there'll be listeners here that fully understand that that grief, whether it's a parent or best friend, or somebody, you know, impacts you all very differently. But for me, it impacted me in this understanding that life can change in a moment. And while we think that we are living our lives, to all the things that we want to do, you know, I would say, Oh, I'm going to do this, at some point, you know, I wanted to foster children. And I would say, I'm going to do that at some point, and I'm going to quit this corporate job that I'm completely tied into, that I've been doing for 15 years, I could do it standing on my head. I don't really get that much enjoyment, and I don't feel it, it's my purpose in life, but I'm kind of doing it now, and I'm just gonna keep on doing it. After Paul died, that changed significantly. I'm not advocating wait until somebody dies, I'm definitely advocating taking a look at 'am I living the life that I really want to live?' There is this old, saying, if you only had one day to live...? Well, if I only had one day to live, I go to the pub with all my mates, you know, that's what I would do.

Nahla Summers 07:00

But if somebody said you have a year to live, would you be happy in the life that you were in right now? It's asking yourself the question, if you had a year to live that if you were in your current place, would you stay doing that work? Would you stay in the environment and the place that you are? Or would you make a change, and if you would make a change, then you need to make that change right now. Because we just don't know what is around the corner.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 07:31

That's a powerful message straight out there isn't it? I think there's a lot of people that DO get that - there's a lot of people that have experienced that moment of questioning their own mortality, because of the loss of a loved one. And I'm so sorry that you went through that with your partner.

Nahla Summers 07:47

But you know,this is the life that I'm in now, and I wouldn't have raised 250,000 acts of kindness, I wouldn't have met these incredible people, I wouldn't have travelled as much as I had. I would have done some travelling, but I mean, I've travelled the world three times over, researching about kindness. So while there are so many times that I think I'd just love to have him back, because it was just easy. It was easy to be loved unconditionally by him at the same time to do that means that you take away the last ten years, and the purpose that I now have from that side of things. So yeah, it's a hard one.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:34

You can see the joy and the benefit that you have from both sides of the story. So you know, having Paul and having the life you have now and to actually say, well, sorry, you can have one or the other, to say you can only have one or the other is so hard. But to know that a huge benefit has come from that loss, actually must be very reassuring.

Nahla Summers 08:59

Yeah, because it's bigger than me. See, when me and Paul were together, we lived in a little bubble. That was just me and him. There was this unconditional love between us. We didn't do a whole load of things, we just didn't. We just enjoyed each other's company, and it was very easy. And life is not easy now, but now I have a much bigger purpose that's really nothing to do with me. There's a key to happiness from that. When we make our lives about other people. There's a purpose that drives us forward as we talk about mental health challenges and all the challenges that go on for human development. When we actually realise that our lives are really meant to support each other. And whether that's going out to the community and doing things whether that's helping somebody across the road, somebody with their shopping, you know, just being part of the community around you. That's the purpose and really, that drove me down that road after Paul's death. I understand that it's not really about me and all the stuff that I do isn't really about me at all. It's about the rest of the world, and it gives us great purpose.

Nahla Summers 10:10

I think so. Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:11

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. So the acts of kindness, then. The sponsorship of kindness. Why did you choose that over sponsorship of financial gain, to help a charity? What was your driving force behind that?

Nahla Summers 10:28

You know, when Paul first died, I was in a terrible place. I was obviously crying all the time. I wasn't able to deal with it. I was talking in riddles. I was in a deep state of shock, and it got worse. After the funeral, I stopped wanting people to come into the house, and I stopped wanting to leave the house, and then it was just spiralling, really. I would call my mum, and she would always be on the end of the phone, but it was like, she never went out. I would just cry down the phone, and she would just listen, and she would just be present and say, "oh darling. I know". Because there wasn't anything that you could fix. There was nothing else to do other than listen or say all those very unhelpful things like 'oh, well, time's a great healer' and all that. Very unhelpful. If ever, you haven't gone through grief, and you're trying to help a grieving friend, don't say that. I wasn't eating or sleeping. It was just spiralling out of control, really.

Nahla Summers 10:45

So we lived out in the beach in Weston-Super-Mare, in Kewstoke. We had the most beautiful sunsets, like just stunning. Me andPaul was used to going out on an evening after work. On this one particular day, I decided to go out to the beach, and there was a man on a horse doing a figure of eight backwards, you know, it was quite something and he was training the horse, along this very quiet beach - and the water goes right out at Weston-Super-Mare.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:08

I know it well.

Nahla Summers 12:09

Yeah. I mean, it's just stunning. I love it there, and then a man came up with his dog and asked me about if the horse was mine, and in those moments, you know of talking to me, I felt this lightness. Where everything in my peripheral vision had been dark, I felt that there was some kind of light at the end of the tunnel. The man went off, his phone rang, he had to go and he just chit-chatted to me about nothing in particular, gave me stories of positivity. I wasn't suddenly healed from my grief, but it did become the catalyst for me starting to change my life.

Nahla Summers 12:49

My mom would say I 'grieved well', and what she meant by that was, I talked a lot, you know, if I was to say to anybody, and I wrote everything down. So I wrote to Paul every day, because I had all these things to tell him. And they weren't really very big things. They were like the boiler's broken; your car got broken into, because we left a sat nav in it; I'm not sure what to do about something. And so I started to write to him, and it became a therapy and I talked a lot. Yeah, huge tip, very easy. Let's not overcomplicate the solutions to the world, and life and all the challenges that we have talking is just a huge thing. Even if you tell the same story to ten different friends go and do it, because you'll feel a lot better at the end of it. So I went through the grieving process, and after I met that stranger on the beach, it started to become a catalyst. And I started to look at people and started to think. When I went out to the shops and you know, the kindness of somebody helping me to get something from the top shelf and kindness did become very prevalent in those first months. And it got suggested that I climb Kilimanjaro, quite early on. And I thought, well, why not? I'll just do that. I have blind optimism, and only discovered the term 'blind optimism', while I was writing my latest book. I have it in spades. This kind of, 'yeah, let's do it. Let's figure it out later on'. Because otherwise, if you know too much, and you think about it too much, you won't do anything at all. You'll just be paralysed. I have blind optimism and I don't want to fight it. I'm quite happy with it. And so I did the same with Kilimanjaro. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I raised £14,000 with the help of the company that Paul worked for, and of course, he only died at forty-four and when something like that happens, people donate, don't they? So I raised £14,000 and when I called the charity on returning from Kilimanjar and said, "what can we do with this money?" They said, "oh, no, it's just gone into the big pot." I really wanted to do something very specific for him, and so I decided that this was not our life. This was not who we were, and decided that they would start collecting acts of kindness instead.

Nahla Summers 15:18

It started off with just friends and family and a hobby became a life really. I can remember, the first year I did it, people went, "Oh, can't I just give you £10? It would be so much easier than than having to go out and do an act of kindness?" I'd say, "no, you got to do an act of kindness!" You know, I got a few that first year and it just rolled on. It was really why 'acts of kindness' and so that's where it started. Yeah, and of course, with acts of kindness, it's a bit like when you're collecting, if you've got an interest in penguins, for example, and everybody buys you penguins related stuff every Christmas and birthday. Well this is what happened with me with kindness. But it was just all year round. So every meme, you get tagged in everything, people gift you books, and you know, 'oh you've got to meet this person who is the kindest person, they want to tell you stories'. And so it goes on. I became fascinated by this idea of kindness and how much we were missing it, and so it went on really.

Nahla Summers 16:28

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 16:29

It's like it snowballed.

Nahla Summers 16:30

Yeah, yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 16:32

Which is what you need, isn't it? That's what you need to actually get this whole thing off the ground and going, so how many acts of kindness have been donated, now? I guess that's the right term.

Nahla Summers 16:42

That's right. We're at about a quarter of a million now. So the aim is to get a million with just connecting with an organisation called Hexitime actually, and they add up volunteer hours and it's a really clever idea. I strongly advise that just out of nosiness go and have a look at them. They're very much in the social and care world, and it's some doctors that founded it. So for every volunteer hour that they do, we'll be putting that into the 1 million, which is really exciting as well. I'm hopeful that certainly within the next twelve months that we get to... or fourteen months, maybe I have blind optimism again, probably two years, I would imagine!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:25

That is so exciting, and we can put a link to Hexitime in the in the show notes. Yeah, no problem. And I think actually, the whole thing about acts of kindness, you've got something that is so tangible, whereas you didn't have that with the donating money to the charity, you didn't have something did you, that you could say this is what we have done in memory of Paul, and this is helping his name live on. There wasn't anything there, but now these acts of kindness are so tangible. Not only are they helping other people, I'm a huge believer in that they help US as well. So the people that are donating the acts of kindness, you can't fail to feel good, you feel absolutely wonderful. Every time you do something for somebody else. I always encourage people to go and volunteer, particularly in schools, they always ask me, you know, how can I go and earn money? How can I go and get a job. So don't focus on getting a job. Now go and volunteer first, get some experience, you'll feel really good. But actually, it will help other people and it'll help your CV and your experience to get your job as well. But yeah, if it fills you up, and it makes you feel wonderful.

Nahla Summers 18:30

It should be prescribed by doctors, in terms of getting involved in community joining a social group. You know, all of that. People also misunderstand me when I talk about kindness, because kindness isn't just about the 'act of kindness', because people think, Oh, I have to buy someone a cup of coffee, take some doughnuts into work. But that isn't kindness, truly. You know, I might be doing something nice. But kindness is about standing in the shoes of somebody else, and really being present with them. Kindness is, not putting your own beliefs and thoughts onto somebody, but listening to theirs and going, 'yeah, I see that. I see where you are coming from.' It's about the gratitude to somebody - but true gratitude - not just a blind, thank you, but really being grateful for the people around you, which of course has its own impacts on you. Connection, courage, time, integrity, all of these things are built under the umbrella of kindness. I think when we focus on that, as a society, we will change all of the issues that we currently have. It sounds very bold to say that but if you look at any issue that we have: mental health challenges, environmental challenges within the world, political challenges, workplace challenges, any thing to do with something as simple as bullying. You look at the way that our politicians have a lack of empathy and understanding for the variety of people within society, a lack of kindness is at the heart of all of our problems. So kindness doesn't even just come down to those, you know, 250,000 acts. People say to me, oh, what can I do, I said, you can just be present for somebody, when they really need you, you can just be on the end of the phone, when somebody is having a bad time. And that's kindness to just be present. It's really not difficult. Educate yourself on a bigger society, educate yourself on not just the society that you live, but all of society and the challenge that, that people have, you know, from different ethnic minorities to different sexual preferences, different whatever it is, you know, it's so wide now. And, and we're allowed in so many ways to be who we want to be. But yes, but understanding. So I wanted to express that about kindness and that's important really and the ease in which we can do it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:09

It's huge. That whole definition of kindness, and what you can pull out of that is massive, isn't it? And as you say, it's so important. And I think the biggest thing that comes for me from that, is empathy. It's having that empathy for other people, and understanding that we all think differently, we have different opinions, we live differently, we have different needs. People are carrying around different baggage and we just need to have empathy.

Nahla Summers 21:35

A Culture of Kindness and the work that I do in organisations came from this whole idea that I started from all this research that came to me about kindness. I realised it was starting to get more complex. There's a lot of values underpinning kindness, and what that really looked like, and I realised that it was just missing from workplaces. There wasn't one organisation that I had worked within that I thought, 'yeah, you're getting it right. You're bringing all these values in.' There was so many organisations that wanted to so badly, you know, they had it in their policy documents. But was it really embedded in the culture? No, it wasn't what was embedded was blame, it was so evident that blame underpins everything. So I designed a theory from a whole load research that I did with CEOs who were deemed, you know, the kindest leaders, and from there, we looked at what needed to change.

Nahla Summers 22:35

The thing is, with all of this, we look at stress and anxiety, we look at all these challenges that we have within ourselves. But when you look at stress and anxiety within workplaces, so often workplaces, are trying to put sticky plasters on BIG problems! They're saying 'oh god, we'll put in a Mental Health First Aider and that will fix it.' And that doesn't mean that I'm saying that people shouldn't have Mental Health First Aiders, because they should, but organisations will think 'oh, that's it, I fixed it, that's a solution.' But the solution runs much deeper than that. It's the foundations of the way that we interact, and the only way that we really do that is by bringing kindness in and allowing people to have empathy and, and talk freely about themselves and be themselves you know, without retribution. The organisations... and I use this as a great example... I ask a question to everyone at the beginning of the groups to see what comes from it, and I say, "I want you to share something that you've never shared with anyone at work." The amount of people that say, "I've got five children", or just standard life things about themselves that they aren't sharing within work, because when they go into work, they go into 'I'm this person, I'm a brand new person.' And of course, we must have roles, but to have empathy, and to stand in the shoes of somebody else, to be able to really listen, we also have to be vulnerable enough to share of ourselves. It's hugely important. So kindness in workplaces - kindness is the answer to so many of our challenges really.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:14

That sounds like a great job that you're doing there. So this led then into you creating an annual challenge for yourself where you could go off and test your own resolve, test your resilience, face your fears, and then bring those stories back to these workplaces and to the Sunshine People. I mean, it's all interconnected, isn't it? But you've had four or five challenges now. Would that be right?

Nahla Summers 24:39

Yeah, there's a few more but they were smaller, so I never really documented them. We actually did the cycle ride that Paul was on, which I don't really talk about. I climbed Snowdon, and we'd obviously done Kilimanjaro. I did a walk and I did a cycle ride with one of the foster children with me. Every year, there were pretty small things until 2018 when I cycled across America and decided 'well it's go big or go home now,' you know, I'm playing at this and you sit in the wings, don't you and you go, 'it seems like awfully hard work.' I watch all these really incredible people pull tyres along, on their back and I think, 'wow', that seems big to me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:36

Can I just interrupt there? I'm just thinking about your usual approach that you talked about earlier, your blind optimism. Did that not kick in then, when you were thinking, okay, I've got a cycle 3000 miles across America? Was it like,' oh, my gosh, that actually, this is huge', and how did you handle that?

Nahla Summers 25:55

So what I was, was very busy. I was REALLY busy up until that point. And I think what also happened is, and I did this across America, but you break it down. So you go, well, rather than thinking, I'm going to cycle across America, when you think of this kind of huge thing. It just paralyses you. So then I go, Okay, well, what do I need a bike so I can remember, borrowing a bike. I was working out in the Middle East at this point. So that was another reason why I hadn't done big challenges because I was in and out as the corporate world still, and I was doing contract work. I had decided while I was out in the Middle East in Dubai, I was quitting. I'd taken a couple of months, I was re-training doing some coaching work, and I borrowed a bike while I was out there that I didn't actually ever ride, because I couldn't make it work. I can't remember why. There was just all sorts of issues.

Nahla Summers 26:55

Anyway, I was running a little bit on the beach, you know, hard life, and I just didn't know what I was getting into. I had no concept because I hadn't cycled. I hadn't cycled with clip-in shoes. I had not cycled a road bike before. So all of these things I didn't really know, and I thought, well, it's okay, because I'll just learn along the way which you I can guarantee anyone who says they can't, that IS what happens, you just learn. So I went in, and then I came back to the UK and it was December. I'd already booked the flight. Big tip for anybody. If you're unsure about something and you're umming and ahhing, just go and book the flight for a period of time, and then you will go and do it because it's already booked. It's too late, so you'll find a way to do it. Anyway, booked flight for 1st March. I had two months. I bought the bike six weeks before I was due to go out, from Gumtree. It was completely the wrong bike to get. It was not a touring bike, it was a road bike and the roads that in America are brutal at times. But it was a bike, it pedalled me forwards. You can always think back and say, well, people did this without maps. You know, people did this without all that stuff that you can get nowadays. So you kind of go with this, well, it will just work out and and you are just going to propel yourself forwards.

Nahla Summers 28:30

We live very cosy lives, right? We've got all these wonderful things around us. But that wasn't always the case not that long ago. So you can have very, very little and still survive and still be okay. And the kindness of strangers when you're on these challenges as well, will propel you forwards and keep you going. So yeah, blind optimism has followed me. I've been blessed with it. But we can all have it if we choose to. We can all have it for sure.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 29:00

Yeah, that's fabulous to hear that, in that you found a way. You found a way that works for you that gets you through some of these difficult times or some of through some of these plans. I say plans loosely plans.

Nahla Summers 29:14

Loosely, yeah, very loosely I would say. Yeah, it's an idea... barely, and then I just do it. Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 29:24

I love this theme that's running through now. 'Loose plans.' Well, I have something to ask you. I guess now because although I would like to talk about the challenges a bit more, I actually would dearly love to talk to you about your new book. Because by the time this lands in podcast world, your book will have been three days launched, so this is very exciting. Would you like to tell us what it's called and a little bit about where it comes from what it's about. Share!

Nahla Summers 29:56

It's actually named The Accidental Adventurer. Now, this is not because I've had any accidents. It is because I became this kind of accidental adventurer. Year-on-year ,I started doing these things. After I cycled across America, I did the 500-mile walk and then the ElliptiGO. Then just as I'm nearing the end of writing this book, as people may have been able to hear, I don't usually have a lisp within my speech. But I do at the moment, because I've broken my jaw and I have a lot of metal in my mouth. And so had an accident about four weeks ago, as I was training for my latest world record. That was a twenty-four hour world record on the ElliptiGO. So I feel like I tempted fate with The Accidental Adventurer title. But it was too late, I was stuck with it.

Nahla Summers 30:47

But yeah, within the book, it's very much sharing the stories, the incredible people that I met, and it talks about really how we can all achieve whatever we want to. Not just in adventuring, but anything that you dream to do, you can do it, you have that capability within you. I wouldn't say it was a big 'rah, rah, you know, this is what you've got to do to do it.' But it's very much a storytelling book of that journey of pulling yourself up from the living room floor, really and saying, "actually, I need to live." I'm hoping I'm selling it really! But yeah, it talks about all the adventures and goes through it. And I will say that this has been my hardest challenge. I wrote this book, and it was 120,000 words, it was a big old book. I sent it to Lindsey Duncan, the editor, and she was incredible. She wrote six pages of notes, and it was a rewrite, really. I was sad, you know, sad for a while, just just for a couple of days. But it's okay, you know, you're sad, and then you pick yourself up, right? You go, "what am I going to do about this?" And so I started. She was absolutely right, every note that she made was absolutely spot on. So I started working my way through the notes and started to change the book. We've now got a 60,000 word book that is completely rewritten. And you know, I'm very proud of it. It's been an incredible labour of love, and would not have been the book it is today without Lindsey's support, I'd love to say it's just me, but it's not really. And then Laura King did final edit, and actually all of the Sunshine People, all the stories, all the people I've met, I couldn't put them all in the book. But you know, it is for all of those people, and it's very much written for the reader. I dedicate the book to the reader because it IS written for them and for the Sunshine People that continue to support with their acts of kindness.

Nahla Summers 32:59

Yeah,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:00

It's exciting. It is such an exciting project and yeah, like you say it was a difficult time as well. I was fortunate enough to have a pre-launch copy, and I'm 65% of my way through, I've been reading it and devouring it, and it's got some amazing nuggets in there. I always talk about these pearls of wisdom and these nuggets, but it's just littered with it all the way through and you think oh my gosh, yes, I can apply that to my own life. There are moments where you know, you might be sat in a heap outside a cafe in Northampton, having this complete and utter 'oh, my gosh, I can't do this anymore' moment. But then for the reader, yes, we're definitely able to come back to applying that to things that are going on for us. I can see where I could carry on when things are difficult. I could go those extra, was it three miles, you had to go? Yeah, there was actually something that I wanted to talk to you about that it's so it's about pushing yourself through when you reach moments, like that moment outside the cafe in Northampton, where you're just like, 'no, I can't do this!' how do you pull yourself through it and carry on? What do you draw on? What do you dig out to get yourself to a place where you can go 'right Nahla, give yourself a big kick up the butt and get on and do it?' What is it? What magic do you have?

Nahla Summers 34:23

Yeah, it is about the choice, and you may not have gotten quite there yet, but a dear friend of mine, Scott, who is really just a go-to person for me. I was in a bus stop in Leicester and I thought about what I'd written. I'd written kindness across England. I'd finished that. I was going to do the last 500 miles in a heart and anyone that knows me knows I'm not too worried about the accolades, as lovely as they are, I love them. But you know, the world record, it's just it's a thing to talk about kindness. And so I was about to do this heart to get the final world record, and I thought, you know, I just, I've had enough, I just don't want to do any more, I'm exhausted, I'm tired. I was 4500 miles in. the weather was turning, and I sat in this bus stop, and I thought, I don't know, what I'm going to do. There's nobody about. COVID was ramping up. I really was on a time... time was ticking.

Nahla Summers 35:26

I called my friend, Scott and he said, "well, you've got two choices." He said, "you either sit there and do nothing and go nowhere. Or you take a tiny step forwards and do something to go somewhere." And that was it. You know, that was a summary. And although I got that message from him, you know, in this beautiful way in this conversation with him, that was really what I took forwards with me throughout all of the challenges in many ways. Because when you're kind of doing it, you say well it's a choice, now you're either going to stop and do nothing, and let all of that. All of where you got to so far, you're going to let it all go, which means that the purpose wasn't strong enough for you, quite frankly. The purpose wasn't big enough. Or you're going to keep going, and you're going to go the extra three miles, and maybe you'll take a break for a minute, but you're going to keep going and pushing forwards. So for me, it was all about that. It was always, I didn't really have a choice. Either I sat there outside that cafe in Northampton, and did nothing. Because I couldn't get a lift, there wasn't those options to do that. So yeah, it was kind of you have to go and do SOMETHING.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:44

I love that. A tiny step forward, you can either do nothing, or you take a tiny step forward. And yeah, that is so relatable to life, isn't it?

Nahla Summers 36:52

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:53

I also liked in the book that you suggested that there are times where people will give you ideas about things to go and do. Challenges to go and do and that somehow you're able to allow them to live through your adventures, because there are people that simply can't go and do what you are doing. But I'm wondering, is there anything that anybody has suggested to you to do? That you've actually thought, 'no way?!' There's absolutely no way on this earth. I'm doing that.

Nahla Summers 37:24

Do y'know, no, not yet. So, the only thing that I wouldn't do is bungee jump, actually. But nobody suggested that and it's not really quite the challenge that people are looking for. But yeah, the challenges, they get more interesting. They change and adapt, and I think, again, you know, it's talking to people. It's this communication with people, we can get very wrapped up into our phones, into communicating through Messenger, and that doesn't develop growth or ideas. And so for me, it's definitely about jumping on the phone, talking to friends, "oh I've had an idea." And then people will say, oh, you should do this, and whatever it is, and so it tends to develop into something. Then of course, usually I've got these very lofty ideas of what's going to happen, you know, these huge things. Yeah, they normally scale back a little bit in reality. But it's okay, because you keep moving, right? You keep taking steps forward. Yeah, I agree. You know, not everyone's going to go off and do these ridiculous things completely unprepared, because if we're all doing that would be quite bonkers. But people are living their own adventures in one way or another, and they're doing their own things, and they're leaving their mark, whether that's through a garden plot. My Dad's makes such an impact with his bit of land and smallholding and we're all doing our own adventures and our own journeys. It's just deciding what you want to do, and making that purpose so that it feels enough to propel you forward so that it continues to go those extra three miles to propel you forward.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:11

And in doing that, that then makes you more resilient to cope with the next stage. For somebody, choosing to go and work on a piece of land, either to buy it, or to rent it, and then to work on that piece of land and use it as a smallholding, for some people that would be a massive adventure and well out of their comfort zones. It's just choosing that element of your life that is going to push yourself out of your comfort zone and create new experiences for yourself. Yeah, I think that's important.

Nahla Summers 39:41

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, these things take years sometimes to develop and some things that people do, take a shorter amount of time, but it's about really doing things that you just enjoy and then kind of focusing and developing on that.

Nahla Summers 39:57

So yeah,

Nahla Summers 39:57

no, yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:58

Actually I'm really pleased you said that because I was just about to ask you, what do you fear? So if you haven't found anything that people have suggested to you to do yet, that's been a bit out of your comfort zone, are there things that you do fear? And I wanted to add to that, not because I'm some kind of sadistic person, but I think that we CAN enjoy things that scare us, and we can benefit from things that scare us. So I just wanted to add that in as a, as ana...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:26

...I wanted to add that in as an aside! Yeah, so what do you fear?

Nahla Summers 40:32

I will say fear and things going wrong. I just want to touch on both those things. So fear comes from something that we THINK might happen, usually. Unless we're literally stood in front of a sabre-toothed tiger, and then that's natural fear, because we fear for our life. But most of the fear that we experience is because we try to predict what might happen going forwards. I have an innate knowledge, as we all can, in fact, that when things go wrong, we actually have this ability to be stronger at the back of it. So when things don't go right for me, I think, 'that's great. I'm happy with that. It's a pain right now.' But I know that it's not what comes to me, will come to me for the right reasons, and I just have to go and find another route to achieve the same target. That's a mindset. That's just a thought process that I've adopted, over time. I've started to realise I embrace when things go wrong now, and I'm grateful for them. I don't wish them upon myself, I don't want them all the time. But I'm like, 'this is great', because I know that I'm going to come out stronger off the back of it.

Nahla Summers 41:54

So we have this ability to allow things to go wrong, but also that reduces our fear. Because we don't then start predicting what are all the things that could go wrong, because you've already got this mindset where you're going, it's okay, when things go wrong. It's okay to fail at something. It's okay... well I say 'fail', it's not quite the right word. But for things to fall apart, and for us to pick ourselves up and start again, because we're gonna feel so much better for it. And also, again, when we try things that we've never tried before, we don't actually know the fear that we need to face. So you know, next year, the aim is to be in New Zealand, from north to south New Zealand. I will not be Googling all the things that could happen, or the animals that I could encounter while I'm camping out. I'm not going to do that. Because I will project that and I'll be thinking, oh my god, you know, I can't do that dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. So that's around not thinking too much into the future, and when our minds do that, to really change it. We have the ability to do that if we want to.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 43:07

Gosh, definitely yes. And I can see myself, I am that person who WILL Google, what could happen to me, what I might meet. I over-analyse everything, and so therefore, I am afraid of the things that I'm about to go and do before I've even launched myself into doing them, which is why HeadRightOut began. I guess it was as much a platform to help other women as it is to help me, or the other way around! It's definitely something that I need to work on. I've got to stop over-analysing, because that's where my fear comes in, and I know that and gosh, what you've said, has just gone wakey-wakey, Zoe. It's YOU!

Nahla Summers 43:47

It's interesting, I did a talk. This woman asked me when I was doing this talk at the q&a at the end, and said to me, what do we do about the conversations that are going on in my head about, I'm not good enough. And first of all, I talked about positive affirmations, of course, hugely important. But it's also about when we want to keep fit, when we want to keep our bodies fit, we go to the gym, and we'll go every day, or we might go for a walk, or we go for a run, and we know that we have to keep our bodies fit. But so often with our minds, we don't do the regular exercise that we need to be able to get rid of those fears, to remove any procrastination we might have, and to work on those things to work on self belief. I am enough, and to repeat that, and to know that and to feel it, and to not chase down toxic environments, hoping to be liked and loved, and focus on things that do us well. So yeah, there's a huge thing around training the brain. We can train our bodies but we need to train our brains and that was something really that came out from the adventures on the importance of that. Because it didn't matter that I hadn't trained actually. It didn't matter that I hadn't trained on my bike. It didn't matter that I couldn't drink from water bottle while I was cycling along, because I learnt it. I learned as I went along. But what I couldn't do was train my brain, and that was the important thing. Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 45:20

That is such a positive take-home really from this, because it's not just about the fear. It's not just about how you deal with fear. That training your brain is also tackling my other big issue, which is imposter syndrome. And yeah. Everything that you have just said there applies to me, working out how I'm going to climb up that ladder, because I'm afraid of heights, but it's also going to help me and probably thousands of other women out there as well. It's going to help us deal with the imposter syndrome and telling ourselves that we are enough. Yeah, it's massive. Just thank you. Thank you, Nahla.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 46:00

Well, we're coming to the end of this amazing conversation, and there's just so much, so much in here, and it always takes me a while to process a conversation like this with people. I'm going to go away today and really think and reflect on what you've said. Because I take home those messages as well. I absorb them, and I use them, and yeah, hopefully it's all going to lead into bigger and better things. So I would like to know, has there been a HeadRightOut Moment for you, Nahla? This is something I'm collecting from each of my guests on HeadRightOut. Something where you perhaps didn't think you were capable, but you pushed yourself well out of your comfort zone, and actually benefited from it as a result?

Nahla Summers 46:48

Thousands. Thousands of HeadRightOut Moments! Moments sat in that bus stop with Scott thinking, 'yeah, I'm ready to give up.' And you know, for me, the HeadRightOut is so much about training the brain, is about stepping out. And it doesn't mean that everyone now needs to climb mountains, or do all these crazy things. But it's about that 'I am enough', getting out of our heads that will spiral us into this place that's limiting to our own development and all that we can deliver in the world. All those things that we can do for other people, it stops us from doing all those things, because we think I'm not enough. And we worry about oh what will that person think, or, you know, all of those things. And it's coming out of that space. And I think that's the turning moment. That's the HeadRightOut Moment to change that chatter that's in our heads.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 47:49

And that chatter can be so noisy can't it?

Nahla Summers 47:53

Sooo noisy! So noisy.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 47:56

It's just learning to turn it off. Well Nahla, thank you so much. This has been just massive, just so, so powerful for me. Would you like to share where people can find out more about you and follow you on social media and find out obviously, the big one where they can buy your new book?

Nahla Summers 48:16

Yes, very exciting. They can come and see me at www.nahlasummers.com. and that's N A H L A and 'summers' like the season with an S on the end. And you can buy the book through there, but also you will be able to, on the first of November, go into any bookstore and ask them to order you a book, which I'm very excited by. The more people that do that the better, because then bookshops become more aware of the book. So yeah, you'll be able to go into bookshops. You will be able to do Amazon as well and all of those kinds of online doors, but you know, we want to support those independent bookshops, for sure. I would love for people to go out and purchase it in the independents more than anything else, taking it back to them. So all of those things, Instagram, I've got TikTok and of course there's Sunshine People but when you go to nahlasummers.com, you can find out about the Sunshine People and about a Culture of Kindness. If you're looking to make kindness within workplaces, you can go to a Culture of Kindness and kindness within society is the Sunshine People. We're doing some stuff in schools with Sunshine People now and all sorts of great things and of course got the workplace stuff that do lots of free stuff as well as the consultancy, so do take a look and see what works for you.

Nahla Summers 49:38

Well, thank you Nahla. This has been fantastic. I wish you absolutely 150% luck with your book. I hope it smashes into the number one spot. That's what you need and best of luck. Thank you so much for coming on HeadRightOut.

Nahla Summers 49:54

Oh, thank you so much. Love what you're doing Zoe. Big fan, and hopefully I'll see you soon.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:08

That was such an amazing conversation with the Nahla. I loved how she talked of how the kindness of others has impacted on her, and how the kindness that we can give back to society to our friends to our communities, also can have such a huge impact. How Nahla experienced that catalyst of kindness after a period of grief, and I loved her explanation of 'blind optimism'. I don't think I'm guilty of that. I mean, I can be optimistic, but I don't think I have blind optimism because I don't just plough on into something without checking it out fully, first. There are huge messages delivered there and I know what she's saying about how we can potentially change our world and change our culture, with acts of kindness. Many, many, many simple acts of kindness can go a long way to changing world's, country's problems.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:10

I know how great being kind to somebody can make you feel as well. Just last week, I was down in Cornwall for a couple of days, and I helped an old lady at Geevor Mine. It's not far from St. Just, near Land's End. It was blowing an absolute hooley, and we had reached the mine after having a few miles walk along the coast and back again. This lady in her eighties, a very small, frail lady with a bag, and a key in her hand was standing, hunched over, leaning against a wall, facing a car that was probably just five metres away. I went over to her and asked her if she was okay, and she said, "no, I'm trying to get to my car." But she was frightened of being blown over and I said, "would you like to take my arm?" She said, "yes, please." So she took my arm, and I guided her over to the car, and then she couldn't open the car. She didn't know which button to press. So I helped her with that too and waited until she got herself settled in there and showed her which buttons so that if the car locked itself, she will be able to open it for her family that were coming back a little bit later. Just in that few minutes of helping somebody else, it made me feel really good too. Not out of a selfish way, but just because I had taken the time to help somebody else who was in need. Anyway, so go and check out in Nahla on her socials. I have put all of the links to nahlasummers.com and Instagram, Facebook. I've put it all in the show notes, and don't forget to go and order her new book from your local bookshop, The Accidental Adventurer, you are going to love it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 52:59

Okay, so I have got some exciting news to share with you. A couple of years ago I did my 100ScaryDays, and my 100th Scary Day was always going to be a skydive, and it's all bought and paid for. I paid for it myself, and it got cancelled twice, due to bad weather conditions. Then it couldn't happen because of the pandemic, and then I moved up to Wales, and then we've had other family issues that we've been dealing with. So it didn't get rebooked. But last week, I have rebooked it and it is happening on the 12th of November with GoSkydive. I am so, so excited, but also a bit scared. I am just going to take it as it comes. I'm trying to blot out any feelings of how I'm going to feel when I'm standing in the aeroplane and we're about to jump. But it is going to be fabulous. I'm sure it's going to be a challenge episode. I'm going to use it for the podcast. Yes, there is a video happening as well and photographs. So it will be on social media too.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 54:00

Now bearing all of this in mind, I did mention in my first 'solopisode' that I was looking for a name to call these challenge episodes. I'm still looking for a name I have had some suggestions which are on my sheet of paper, to be considered. But if you have any clever ideas about what you think I should call these episodes where I head out of my comfort zone, doing scary stuff, and I record it and edit it and deliver it back to you, as an outside episode, please come back to me with your suggestions because I would love to finally give it a name.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 54:39

Okay, this week's HeadRightOut Moment - it's a lovely, lovely HeadRightOut Moment. It's been sent to me by Kirsty Gwynn-Jones, all the way from South Australia. So she says I'd like to share with you my bike packing trip around the Yorke Peninsula in South Australia. I rode this almost 500 kilometre track called the Walk the Yorke, which has both a walking and cycling version, and I did it in 2018.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:04

I planned ahead (I mean a day or two before), and booked basic accommodation for four nights. My husband will and our children dropped me off in Moonta, the night before I headed off, remember will giving me a lesson on bike mechanics before they left. I was riding my son's Trek mountain bike. I really didn't know what I was doing, and I only carried a small backpack with a change of clothes, spare tyre tubes, some tools, a few snacks (there aren't many shops on the route), and water along with a litre of water on my bike.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:35

On day one, I headed off at sunrise thinking that that would give me enough time to ride the 120 or so kilometres I thought I'd be covering that day before sunset. Not far into the day I was on very sandy tracks. When I followed the signs onto a beach. I knew that was wrong, but it wasn't too hard to ride on. So I continued on riding on the beach for quite a few kilometres, and eventually I rejoined the trail. I remember I could hear lovely native bird songs all day. There was some really tough riding, or not riding where I continually had to get off my bike and push it through the super soft sand! That became the theme of the day. I met a lovely retired English couple camping near the beach and shared a coffee with them. There was lots of beautiful scenery and sand dunes, saltbush and occasional sea views.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:23

The hours disappeared, and I found myself riding in the dark. Luckily, I had bike lights. I range the owner of the cabin, I was heading to at Port Turton, because I realised I wasn't going to make it there in time for the pub meal I've been planning on. He kindly organised a frozen pizza for me instead. My watch ran out of power that night, but I recorded more than 116 kilometres before that happened, and there was at least five kilometres after. I was tired, but full of a sense of achievement.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:52

The next day, I headed off early again and remembered the beautiful light on the rocky corrugated tracks. My back was really aching from the weight of the backpack. So I took out the heaviest things; the spare thorn-proof tubes, and tied them around the bike frame. Then I secured them with a shopping bag. This must have looked crazy, but it helped my back, so I didn't really care. I recorded this day on Strava as some "gnarly tracks and beautiful sights". Stunning coastline and beaches were the theme of this day, a few sandy spots and lots of sunshine. I remember lots of animals too. Cattle and sheep in paddocks, but heaps of roos also.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 57:33

The Corny Point Lighthouse was a highlight, as were the beach views along the rough rocky roads after. My back ached when I had a patch of bitumen riding, and I remember seeing a cloudy ring around the sun and wondering if that meant rain. I was excited to reach the beautiful Innes National Park that I always loved visiting. Of course there were loads of roos and even a few emus to keep me company.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 57:55

Again it got dark quickly and as I headed closer to Marion Bay, my front light failed because I'd forgotten to turn it off soon enough, earlier in the day. I used my red flashing light on the front of the bike, to alert the few cars on the road. But it didn't help me see very far. This time. I wasn't too late for that pub meal, and it was awesome! I'd covered more than 124 kilometres.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 58:22

The third day began along another corrugated white rocky road. I ran into the lovely surfy owner of the cabin that I'd stayed in the night before, on a remote bit of road and was initially shocked when he knew my name. Having spoken on the phone, he said in a kindly way, "there's no other mad females out here riding, so I knew it had to be you!" The morning went on forever, and the scenery wasn't that exciting. Until that point I'd been filling up with water at the track water tanks, but the few I passed were empty. I realiesd it was likely to be seventy kilometres before I could refill with no towns until Edithburgh, so I was careful with my water.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:03

There was a crazy section where I was riding through spinafex, and I cursed whoever thought it was rideable but kept going anyway. Then I found the most stunning cliffs around the beaches, and felt I discovered another Great Ocean Road, but with the roughest road ever. It was windy and the low bushes had that awkward lean, often seen on clifftops. I was in heaven with the views near Troubridge Lighthouse until I nearly fell off in a crazily corrugated downhill! But I stayed on a high as I cycled through a narrow grey-sanded bush section, hoping not to see a snake. Then I was under the creepy shadows of the wind turbines, and there was smoke in the distance. I was hoping it wasn't a bushfire. Suddenly, I popped out onto a gravel trail, with lovely mosaics on rocks every 200 metres, or so. I stopped to admire and photograph a few, but was too hungry and thirsty to stop for very long.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:59

I remember the juiciness of the steak sandwich I had before heading off towards Port Vincent. Again, I saw the beautiful light of the sun on the stubble. It was April and autumn and lots of lovely old ruins of early farmhouses. I arrived after dark and decided the banana bread I bought at lunchtime would do for dinner. After more than 133 kilometres, I was exhausted but so fulfilled, titling my Strava record of the day. 'Awesomeness'.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:00:30

A pink sunrise again over another jetty started the day and I was off along some soft dirt tracks through the bush. I fell once but not heavily. My bum was very sore and I wrapped the bandages from my first aid kit around my seat, to soften the impact of sitting. I loved riding past the gigantic silos, at Ardrossan and past some pink salt lakes. The crusty sand that my tyres sank into as I neared Port Wakefield was not so much fun, and I had to use the mantra, 'the body achieves what the mind believes', to push through.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:04

I finished the day and met Will, having ridden a total of 477 kilometres. I was so tired, sun-weary, but completely ecstatic that I have ridden the Walk the Yorke on my own. I learned so much about persevering and how to prepare for my next bike packing trip.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:27

Wow, Kirsty that is just such a beautifully written HeadRightOut Moment, and how incredible that you got to do that on your own and that your husband supported you by taking you there. So often when we have younger children that rely on us that you know, are still dependent on us, we don't feel like we have the opportunity or the permission even, to be able to go off and do that. But having that support just is so important. That backup from your family. Kirsty did this, and made her adventure such a memorable time. And she drew on so many different skills, and no doubt had a range of different emotions and feelings. You know, I could feel it was going up and down, up and down all the way through. The frustration, and the elation, and even coping with the boring bits. Those boring bits are not always that easy, and can really test your level of endurance.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:02:29

So you can check Kirsty out on Instagram, her account is k runs south aus. Now I'm going to spell that out for you because it's not actually how it looks. It looks like KRUNSSOUTHAUS, so it's KRUNSSOUTHAUS and I will put the link in the show notes so you can go and check out Kirsty Gwyn James on Instagram. Her photos are fab, she's lives a really active lifestyle, and yes, I would thoroughly recommend going and following her. So thank you, Kirsty.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:03:03

Okay, that's it from me for this week. We have got an amazing episode next week with Ursula Martin, who is otherwise known as One Woman Walks. She has completed an incredible 5500 mile journey across Europe recently, so I will be chatting with Ursula. Until then, have an amazing week. Get out there and do something that scares you. Test your resilience. Plan to do something that's going to help you head out of your comfort zone. Keep that head right and healthy, doing things that test you and inspire you in your outside space. HeadRightOut hugs to you all.
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A Curvy Woman in Love With Solo Backpacking: the Appalachian Trail & founding Trail Dames - 008: Anna Huthmaker
27 oct 2021· HeadRightOut
Zoe chats to Anna Huthmaker, host of the Trail Dames Podcast. They discuss discovering hiking as a curvy woman, and the lack of representation that Anna felt while she was out on the trails. They also talk about the empowerment of organising, yes, organising and attending a hiking and backpacking summit, exclusively for women. Anna had NEVER organised anything like this before. The way she tells her story is so engaging. Anna hiked 700 miles of the Appalachian Trail, in her words ‘looking like a little watermelon in a tube sock’, broke her foot in two places and still returned to walk more. She has the ability to put a positive spin on so many situations. Anna very eloquently shares her experiences of Merry Penomause, and points out that HeadRightOut should not just be for midlife women. Okay - it’s perimenopause but as Anna and Zoe discover, there's nothing like a little spoonerism to lighten your day!
Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:24

I talk today to Anna Huthmaker, host of the Trail Dames Podcast. We discuss discovering hiking as a curvy woman, and the lack of representation that Anna felt while she was out on the trails. We also talk about the empowerment of organising, yes, organising and attending a summit for women, all about backpacking and hiking, and I should add, Anna had NEVER organised anything like this before. The way she tells this story is just amazing. Anna was also able to very eloquently tell us her experiences of Merry Penomause too, and flags up that this show should not just be for midlife women. Yes, I did just say perimenopause the wrong way round! It was actually a funny thing that happened between Anna and I in our pre-recording discussion, and I think in my head, it's always going to be that now. There's nothing like a little spoonerism to lighten your day!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:24

Now, as Anna said, no one talked about menopause to her when she was younger and no one talked to me about menopause when I was younger. So get your daughters listening to this early on. She is an absolute scream. She is SUCH a bundle of joy. I love Anna to bits and I think you are going to love this episode too. So get your earbuds in, get listening and enjoy the episode with Anna Huthmaker.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:01

Okay, and welcome back to yet another episode of the HeadRightOut Podcast. Yes, this is just so exciting. We're still going and today I am just thrilled to bits because I have a wonderful lady who I've had three conversations with I think now, I forget But anyway, we just feel like we are connected and we were perhaps separated at birth! Her name is Anna Huthmaker. Welcome Anna.

Anna Huthmaker 02:30

Thank you so much. It can I just jump in and just say how impressed I am with your podcast. The first time we talked, you said you know I'm really thinking about doing this. I should do this. And that was not very long ago. And here you are, just crossing it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:45

Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. Well, I'm gonna start off Anna, just by telling people a little bit about you, just to kind of wrap it up into a little parcel about who you are, just so people have a good idea of your background where you've come from.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:59

Anna Huthmaker grew up immersed in the world of classical music, studying cello and double bass, and spending weekends playing with symphonies and chamber ensembles. She used to joke that she had a practice room tan and rarely got outside, much less went hiking. However while spending a summer in the Brevard Music Center in North Carolina, she got invited to go on a hike. Being slow and insecure, she was soon left behind and over the next few hours found herself falling in love with the smell of the trees around her. As the years went by, she started hiking more and more, always by herself before finally scraping up the courage to try a thru hike of the Appalachian Trail. She spent four months backpacking, broke her foot in two places, walked seven hundred miles and found herself completely changed. Along the way she realised that there was no one on the trail that looked like her. At all. So several years later, she started Trail Dames: a hiking club for women of a curvy nature. Anna was determined to take over the trails of the United States, and what once started with nine women in the basement of her family violin shop has now grown over 10,000 women, with chapters across the United States. Trail Dames also has its own Charitable Foundation, a bi-yearly summit, which is a women's hiking and backpacking conference, and its own podcast, the Trail Dames Podcast. Anna continues to play with symphonies and runs the family violin shop, but she's still moving forward with the idea of having women on trails, everywhere. I love that.

Anna Huthmaker 04:42

Oh my gosh, I have to tell you, does everyone feel this way? Like, when you hear your story repeated back to you... you go "oh, wow", you forget as you're on the journey, you know.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 04:55

You do. I've just been chatting with another guest and we had a very similar conversation, in that it's not just the listening back to your story, but it's actually that deep thinking that you have to suddenly do when you're in this podcast conversation situation, where you're remembering things that you'd forgotten about that happened ten or fifteen years ago, and you're thinking, wow, did I? Yes, I did that, I did do that. And it's really uplifting, isn't it to go back into that?

Anna Huthmaker 05:21

Oh, completely. And it reminds us that even the smallest of things can change your life. Honestly, it sounds kind of cliche, but it's true. And it reminds you that something that is maybe small to you can speak to another woman and inspire them. And so yeah, that was kind of great. Thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:42

Yes, well, you are so creative as well. I loved reading through that. I've got to say, I should add here, this was really funny. When I read through it the first time I didn't have my glasses on, and I think I was tired - it was last night and I didn't quite read it properly, and I read it as 'Anna is determined to take over the United States'. Haha! And soon the world!!

Anna Huthmaker 06:07

I can't do one of those laughs but it is funny cuz I always say we're going to take over the trails, you know, one day at a time, one woman at a time, and to this day, when I look out and see not just Trail Dames, but women's hiking and outdoor things has exploded and I look at it go... ha ha ha, we're taking over the world.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:27

Yeah. You know, how long ago did Trail Dames begin, because I feel very much like you are one of the forerunners in this?

Anna Huthmaker 06:36

You know, I feel like it too. So we are fourteen and a half years old or so. And when we started I did a lot of research and I said that we were the first National Women's hiking organisation, because I could not find anything else. We're not cutting the Girl Scouts, they're huge and giant and lovely. And it was very interesting, because someone told me once and I'm going to tell you this too, with with HeadRightOut, they said you will not be the first for long, because people will copy you and come along and they'll do their own thing. And they told me, they said Anna, when that happens, it's a great compliment, because it means you had a great idea. And I've always seen it that way when when other people say, 'you know, Trail Dames is great, but it's not our thing. We're going to start our own thing'. And I'm always, 'yes', because we can't have too many of them. So because HeadRightOut, you're the first one that to my knowledge is doing what you're doing. But yeah, it's a great idea. So there'll be others

Zoe Langley-Wathen 07:30

That's it, and actually the more voices, the more women's voices that we have, the more curvy women's voices you have, the more midlife women voices we have, actually the stronger our message. So therefore actually it shouldn't be a competition. It's just about singing and speaking and walking and adventuring together.

Anna Huthmaker 07:52

As you said, You know, I grew up my whole life as a classical musician, which is lovely, but I get plenty of competition in that area of my life. Yeah, yeah. Oh, no, I'm all about holding hands and singing 'Kumbaya' that is my thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:08

Around a campfire.

Anna Huthmaker 08:09

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:11

So with Trail Dames then, tVhat's all about taking women out onto the trail that perhaps are not confident about approaching a trail themselves on their own is that is that where...?

Anna Huthmaker 08:24

You know, it's so interesting, because when I started Trail Dames, I was very single-minded. And when I say I didn't see women that looked like me, I really was focused on weight, and size. And you know, I went on the Appalachian Trail, and I'm five feet two and at that point I weighed 262 pounds, I have no clue what that is in metric. (118kg/18.7stone)

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:43

Oh, I know, I can't either, you know,

Anna Huthmaker 08:45

Whatever that is, I was like a little watermelon in a tube sock, you know, hiking, the Appalachian Trail. And so my thing at that point was, I want to give women who carried the same kind of fears and insecurities that I did in regarding their weight. That was really what I was focused on. But I have to tell you, like, even from the first meeting, all kinds of women showed up all shapes, all sizes, and pretty early on, like I would have these thin, fit women and they look at me and they'd be like, 'do you think I'm not curvy?' And I'm like, 'okay, I got it. You're curvy. ok!' And what I very quickly learned is that yes, we do provide a space for women that have never been outdoors before, that are insecure or nervous or not sure what to do. But really, it's about connection. You know, and you know this with HeadRightOut, we are providing connection. And it took me a little while to figure that out and go oh, wow, this is what's happening. So I refuse to let go of the tagline 'Trail Dames: a hiking club for women of a curvy nature', because I still want those women to feel like they have found their tribe. But all the other women are there. Of course, they're here. They're welcome. We're everywhere. Yes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 09:58

So if ever I come to Atlanta, Georgia. I can come along?

Anna Huthmaker 10:02

You are hiking with us. Absolutely. Yes, that would be so much fun.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:07

Oh, wouldn't it just? So the Trail Dames, it had I think I read in the bio, you have a couple of different aspects to it. So you've got the the podcast, you have the charitable foundation, and then you have a summit that happens every other year.

Anna Huthmaker 10:23

Yes, yeah. Except for COVID. You know, we all say COVID.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:27

That doesn't count. I read I had checked it out. I went onto the website to do my research...

Anna Huthmaker 10:37

I call it stalking. I always say I stalked you, I mean researched you!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:44

So yeah, so the Trail Dames Summit, it's tagline was 'a woman's exploration of self and the outdoors', and I connected with that so much, because that's what HeadRightOut is it's all about. Heading out of your comfort zone in the outdoor space and heading out of your comfort zone means that you are exploring yourself, and then observing how you deal with that, but it's in particularly in the outdoor space. So tell me about the summit, because for me, this is definitely a comfort zone thing, I feel, but maybe it wasn't for you. But it wasn't something that you've ever done before.

Anna Huthmaker 11:18

So I do have to tell you so quickly, because when when women talk about wanting to do things, you know, my my thing is always just go do it. Just jump right in, just do it. And I have to tell you, I was taking a class in marketing and advertising and it was for our family business. And they were saying, Oh, you need to do something big. And of course, everything for me was like, okay, family business, violin shop, marketing, but Trail Dames. That was what I did with everything, I was learning for both. At the end of the class, they went around the whole circle, there's about thirty of us, and they said, Okay, what big thing are you going to do, and when they got to me, I went, I'm gonna do the nation's first women's hiking backpacking conference, because I hit Google it and that one didn't exist. And the teacher didn't even hesitate. He said, great when you are going to do that? And I said July, and he says, okay, and he moved on to the next person. There was no questioning, no planning or anything. This was February, so I went home... and this is how I do everything... so I have stated that I'm going to do this this is now happening for sure. Without a doubt. I googled How do you put on a conference?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:24

Thank God for Google.

Anna Huthmaker 12:25

Oh, my gosh, seriously! Every single website said start a year to a year and a half out. And I was like, ohhhhh, maybe this is bigger than I thought. The story of how we got through the next four months involves me almost having a nervous breakdown and my friends circling around me and saying, we think you need a committee and my friends came together and my wonderful friend Pam joined with me as a co-chair and it happened, and it was amazing!

Anna Huthmaker 12:56

There's this picture of me I have to tell you, we met at this little college and they had no air conditioning. It was Virginia in the summer and we were all hot and we were sweaty and I think like sixty-two women came to that first one and I was so happy. There's this picture and you look out over the room and someone is speaking and I'm leaning against the door and in my face and maybe it's because I was there I can tell you, they're simultaneously like the greatest exhaustion but coupled with, I was so moved because in the heat we were sweating and it didn't matter. These women were so engaged in what the speaker was sharing they had within two and a half days, everyone had become the best of friends you know how that is something like that? It was extraordinary you know and I remember a friend of mine looking at me and going, 'Oh Anna'... and we both just started crying. We were like look at such beautiful things can happen if you just jump in and go for it. You might be really tired. But you know it did it just brought about such camaraderie, such companionship and again, connection. That's like the word of the day, I think.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:05

Yeah. I mean, for starters, obviously you should be so proud of starting that up and just giving women that opportunity. I would be moved if I was sat there listening to those people speaking. And I've been to conferences. I n fact, I went to a conference back in February. It was just before the lockdown. It managed to sneak in before the lockdown. It was called the Adventure Mind conference. And it was the first of its kind and it brought together speakers that were sharing stories about resilience, and building resilience using adventure. Not just for adults. For children, for young people, for mental health, you know, everybody should have this opportunity of sleeping outside or pushing themselves beyond their comfort zone stretching those resilience strands that we're made up of, and making sure that they're strengthening all the time. Yeah, and I remember coming away from that feeling so empowered, and so full to the brim of ideas, and just a need and a desire to go out and change the world! And that's what it's about, isn't it? So going to conferences and summits like this is such a positive thing for other people. So for you, for those women that would have had such a huge impact on their lives, but also on your life as well.

Anna Huthmaker 15:27

Oh, completely, you know, it's so funny because just through the years of Trail Dames so far, we talk a lot about the growth and wonderful things and what women have gotten from it, and how they've gone out and done bigger and better things. All I think about all the time, honestly, I joke, I say it really is all about me, but are the lessons that I've learned. I talked about it, like I said, my friends like circled around me and said, we think you need a committee, they literally had to sit me down and wave their hand in front of my face and say, 'yo, Anna ask for help'. That's the thing a lot of women have a hard time with. It hadn't even occurred to me. That's the thing. It wasn't pride. It wasn't, 'I can do this'. It hadn't even occurred to me. And so little lessons like that happen all the time. Like for me, I feel like we're all getting great things from it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 16:18

Yes. Oh, that's such a positive response. And so you've never done anything like that before. You stepped out of your comfort zone. You've learned lots of lessons from it. Hang on a minute, when was the first one that happened? What year?

Anna Huthmaker 16:29

Oh gosh, you cannot even ask me that, because I don't know. Okay, I think 2011.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 16:35

Okay, so it's ten years if we take out COVID. So ten years, so you've had five as it's bi-annual.

Anna Huthmaker 16:42

We actually have had I think six, because we started doing it every summer, like the first three, we were doing every summer and by like after the third one, I thought I was gonna die. Because I work a full-time job, and I work part-time jobs, playing, teaching and I was performing as a freelance musician. And I ran Trail Dames in the corners of my life. And so then to put the summit on top of it... yeah. So after those first three years, we all decided every other year is a smarter move. Yeah, I think that we've had six.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:11

So in those six years, you must have had some amazing stories back from people. You must get feedback, or even perhaps speakers that come back in following years that perhaps were they just in the audience previously?

Anna Huthmaker 17:26

Yes. That's really interesting because one woman at her first summit, she told me... she said, 'I've never hiked or backpacked before'. And the next year, when she came back, she was getting ready to do a thru hike. She talked about for her how it was about skill-building. I don't know, she was just a pretty... I don't know what the word is the word is driven, because that might have a negative connotation. She was just a confident woman to begin with. But she talked about getting the skills she needed and to be able to move forward and she got them. That started right there at the summit. Things like that happen a lot. But it's the small things that I really love. It's the women that show up.

Anna Huthmaker 18:07

We have a lot of women that come that these are my favourite kind of women. You ever heard the term 'armchair hikers'?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 18:13

Yes.

Anna Huthmaker 18:14

Yeah. So it used to be that 'armchair hiker' was a little bit of a... it wasn't an insult, but it wasn't necessarily a good thing. A bunch of hikers would be sitting around going 'Oh, so and so is an armchair hiker'. But I have always seen that as something completely different. I've seen armchair hikers as DREAMERS, because they are sitting there learning about the trails in the outdoors and mountains, because they have a dream inside of them. I cannot tell you how many of those women have come to Trail Dames or this summit, and then gone out and hiked. They've gone out and experienced their first mountain. You know, that's a win. That's what I want right there.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 18:53

It's so powerful.

Anna Huthmaker 18:54

I do not care if ... I don't need you to go hike three thousand miles or six thousand miles. Those women are extraordinary. But if you say 'I just went and did this three-mile loop and I went by myself for the first time ever'. I like get goose bumps. Just for me, that's the exciting stuff.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:12

That is. It's women empowering women, which yes, it's just needed. They need to see that there are other people like them out there doing that stuff. And it's important. So you did the AT.

Anna Huthmaker 19:25

I attempted the AT.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:26

Okay, so you did seven hundred miles.

Anna Huthmaker 19:28

Yes, I did seven hundred miles and this is always really important. My friends they give me a hard time because I always go 'I only did seven hundred miles'. I am not cutting myself down. I'm not downplaying what I did. Let me tell you, seven hundred miles was extraordinary for me. Extraordinary. But the Appalachian Trail is somewhere around 2100 miles. I know so many women, and men of course, that have done the entire thing that to me, that's just a respect thing. So you know, you call yourself a thru-hiker while you're doing it while you're attempting it. When you're done, to me, you get that title if you finished it. So I say I only did seven hundred miles, but yeah, it was great.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 20:07

It was seven hundred miles when you put it into a different context just over eight hundred miles is walking Land's End to John o' Groats, here in the UK. That's not to be sniffed at you know. That's that's gonna take quite a while. It's four or five, six weeks depending on whatever speed you want. No, no, no, no, this we're talking five six weeks UK... Land's End to john o'Groats! I realise the AT is whooo, so up and down!

Anna Huthmaker 20:41

I'm tickled because normally the Appalachian Trail will take your average bear six months you know, but even had I not broken my foot and had to get off to heal and then come back and had I had an interrupted experience but I'm really slow and I'm easily distracted.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 20:59

I know that feeling. Me too.

Anna Huthmaker 21:02

Yeah, yeah, so I think probably was all said and done, I did about four months on trail.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:10

Yeah, that's still four months of being with yourself and perhaps meeting other people being out in nature being on your own. It's four months of experience. Forget the miles, it's four months of amazing experience.

Anna Huthmaker 21:24

Amazing and I did have a hiking partner for almost the whole thing and it's like anything else in this world like, if you go to college when you come out of it, you have a million little stories. If you do something like this you come out of it, you have a million little stories and on the Trail Dames podcast, our producer had encouraged me from the beginning to read my Appalachian Trail journal entries, at the end of each big interview, because I do some smaller things. So I read a couple of them and I did this in 2003 so it was like a hundred years ago. And revisiting It is SOOOO much fun! And Steve he teases me. He's British also. Steve is very British, and he says, 'Anna you seem to get a bit emotional when you were reading that', and I'm like 'yes, I did!' What he means is I would sit there crying because it brings back these memories of all these stories of these people you meet, these kindnesses and these struggles. The whole thing. You know, you've done long trails.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:21

Oh gosh yeah. And can you imagine NEVER having written any journals or logbooks? Can you imagine not having that record?

Anna Huthmaker 22:29

Oh you think you'll remember everything, you really do. Even when I'm reading, it I can see that when I was writing it out, I knew that those memories would never leave me. Oh yeah, they're gone. Like some of mine, I look at it and I do not even recall that, at all. Let me just tell you, one of my good friends said to me once, he said, 'Anna, do you journal?' and I said 'no, not really'. And he said 'you should.' He said 'your life really deserves recording'. I say that to people all the time. Say that to women. You may not think it's much but your life deserves recording. So I'm just so glad I kept a journal.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 23:04

I feel that. Absolutely feel that here, because it is, it's so important. Even ten years ago, I was forty, and I did not think I would forget those important moments in my life. But now ten years on, they are definitely slipping. It's not until I start reading what I've written, even just in a diary that is just a daily diary like where I'm noting down engagements and places I've got to be, that's enough sometimes to trigger a memory. And that's why I have stacks of those diaries. I don't throw them away, because I never know when I might need to go back to them and just trigger a memory. But that deeper feeling, the thoughts, the acknowledgments of what's going on around you, when you are actually out on the trail. What's hurting? What are you fed up with? Who's pissed you off?

Anna Huthmaker 23:54

Exactly Yeah,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 23:55

What are you enjoying? What do you love to see? All of those moments. It might just be 'oh my gosh, an owl just flew over me when I was having a pee in the middle of the night'. But those are the moments you just want to record and you don't want to forget aren't they?

Anna Huthmaker 24:10

They really are and you know for me I write a lot about what I smell and what I feel and I actually have a journal entry it's called 'I now know what the inside of a cloud tastes like'. It's because I don't want to forget those things. I don't do a daily journal like I probably should but like you're saying, every quote unquote 'adventure' I've taken, travels around the world, doing different things, I journal those. It takes a lot of time. You'd be amazed how much time it takes at night to lay in your sleeping bag or wherever you are, and write out that whole day. But I know that I want to remember. I want to remember what it felt like to touch an elephant in Thailand, or to watch kids playing in Africa. If I forget those things, I'm gonna be really upset, so yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:58

I need to say that it takes time, but it takes energy as well, doesn't it? When you've been out on the trail and when you've been walking for miles, and miles, and miles that day, and then you've put your tent up or you just want to clamber into your tent, grab something to eat and go to sleep. I have actually been there in my sleeping bag with pen poised at my logbook, and I've fallen asleep... and you can see the biro trail across the page. Then I'm 'okay, right, now I've got to wake up quick, let's get this done'. And I've gone into bullet point form, because I can't do it long form. I'm just too tired to do long form. So I've just got to bullet.

Anna Huthmaker 25:34

Yeah and I learned early on that I couldn't put it off too much. If you put off two or three days, then then you could lose like, seriously, like three hours to sit there and really flesh it all out. So yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:46

Yeah, no, easily. Anna, what did the AT give to you?

Anna Huthmaker 25:51

The number one thing it did, and I have to tell you, it was a process. It wasn't just a one moment. And it wasn't just the AT. But from the moment I looked at my mom, three years before, and I held up... I was reading all these books on the AT.. and I held up a book and I went, 'do you think I could ever do this?' Out of the blue. From that moment and her saying yes, to then a year and a half later, doing a three-day charity walk for breast cancer, which was sixty miles in three days. I would do these things, and then I finally hit the trail. There was all these series of events that actually made me believe I could do things. Because probably so many of your listeners, I'm sure you have done this used to read all these books and compilation essays of Women Adventures of the Outdoors. I used to love all those things have like eight of them. I will never forget one day, sitting down and I was reading it and just inexplicably out of the blue got really mad. And I was like, I won't say the word that I said, because it's not it's not a PG word. But I was like, I'm tired of reading about these women, I think I want to be one of these women and I threw that book across the room. I still have that book. I stopped reading those things. I was like, either you can or you can't, but it's time to at least try something.

Anna Huthmaker 27:15

So these things, especially the AT showed me that you could you could get out and do stuff. For me, like I said earlier, there are women out there that hike thousands and thousands and thousands of miles. You, Zoe have hiked more miles than I have, for sure. For me, it didn't have to be a number. It had to be an attempt and a trying. And every time I attempted something or tried something, I felt more alive and full of potential and like when I leave this world I want to have really experienced it. You know what I mean? Yeah, I just want to you know, I want to go into my next life or whatever and be like, Oh, I did a pretty good job at trying that one, you know?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:02

Yes. It's not about succeeding. Is it?

Anna Huthmaker 28:06

Not at all. No, my definition of success are really different than a lot of other people. My definition of success is often just putting a boot to trail and trying it and if I come back and I only did seven hundred miles, but let me tell you for Anna that totally kicks butt, then yeah, it's it's fine.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:27

You've just sorry, memory trigger there. Your 'it kicks butt'. What's your trail name?

Anna Huthmaker 28:32

Oh, my trail name is Mud Butt.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:35

And why is your trail name Mud Butt, Anna?

Anna Huthmaker 28:38

Well, I have to tell you, it is so interesting because when I wrote my bio, (I've never written my bio, the one that I wrote for you for this), my trail name happened on that hike in North Carolina, that very first hike I ever took. It's funny because it was the most beautiful day. It was the driest of days. It was no rain, no nothing and my friend - one of my dearest wonderfullest friends, John was with me. He had left me and toward the end there was like a little rough spot and there was one mud puddle. He came back to me to help me, because they knew I would have a little struggle and of course, I fell into the one mud puddle on the entire trail. I mean, there is somewhere there's like this fuzzy old picture of it. When I look at it. I'm pretty sure I had on like these white, decorative tennis shoes and like a little pastel outfit. I tried to be all cute. I wasn't cute, but I tried. Anyway, he helped me and of course I'm all muddy and it was a joke. But later that night, we were all sitting around indulging in a little alcoholic beverage, like college age musicians will do. And there was some tequila involved, and at one point John was giving me a hard time, and somehow it slipped out. He said hey, and he actually called me Bud Mutt, because like I said there was a little alcohol involved. Bud Mutt? What's a Bud Mutt and when I realised it was Mud Butt, I laughed and laughed, and it kind of became just a little joke. I was not a hiker. I never even heard of the Appalachian Trail. Like none of those things. As the years went by, first I used it as a crutch for embarrassment. Like if I'm going to fall a lot, which I used to fall all the time before I discovered hiking poles. Whoo, hoo! Yeah, I would fall all the time. And I would be like, well, there I am. No surprise there. But it just became a sense of humour. It says where I've come from. It makes me smile. It came from a good friend. It's like my perfect trail name, for sure.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 30:38

Oh, I love it. I just love it. And yeah, and it's acknowledging that, hey, you know, you might fall over a few times, but you always get up again, and always get back on the trail and pick yourself up dust yourself down... and wash those white trainers!

Anna Huthmaker 30:55

Yeah, when I look at it I'm like 'you've come a long way baby' from that picture.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 30:59

But I'm sure you DID look cute. So were you ever faced then, with any pre-judgements from anybody else, when you're out on the trail, because of your curvy nature? Did anybody give you a hard time or give you any pre-judgements about whether they thought you were up to the job?

Anna Huthmaker 31:20

It's very interesting. So to my knowledge, no. I judge myself very harshly, and I assumed that people were saying things and judging me and making assumptions and all this kind of stuff. But no one ever said a single thing to me, but I can tell you that early on in the trail, we were hiking and I met some young men that were fantastic, and I met this young man named Sidewinder. Sidewinder was the quintessential AT hiker. He was like twenty-two years old, skinny, fit, fast, really personable. I met like two thousand people like this, mostly men, on the trail, but I just really liked him. He was a really nice guy, and I ran into him later. I had to get off the trail because I was injured. And I'm sorry, no one breaks her foot in two places, and then comes back. Everyone says when they're injured, I'm going to come back, but most people, they decide to come back another year. So I did assume that a lot of people would not think I was coming back. But I did and in Virginia down the road, I was hiking by myself for a week. My hiking partner had gone on ahead, and I was down in this grove, and I hiked down to this shelter. I remember it was really it was very dark, because we were really down deep between two mountains and I looked up and there was a guy sitting on the edge of the shelter. It was Sidewinder and I'm like, 'Sidewinder!' It was so great to see him. He was like, 'Mud Butt'!

Anna Huthmaker 32:41

So we sat and we had little lunch, and I will never forget this, because he was eating peanut butter out of a jar with a spoon and we were laughing and joking. He said, 'Okay, I'm taking off' and I said, 'Great', and he looked at me. He was packing his pack up, and he got real serious. He said, 'Mud Butt' and I go, 'yeah?' and he goes, 'no matter what anyone ever tells you, you belong out here'. And I went, 'well, well, thank you Sidewinder, I think that's so sweet'. And he hiked off, but I never have seen him since then. And I hope he's having a wonderful life, he's a great person, he deserves it. But I was sitting there for a second and I was simultaneously really moved and really touched. I really appreciated him saying that, but there was this little voice that went, he wouldn't have said that if people hadn't been saying it. Does that make sense? If they hadn't been talking about it. So now, I will tell you and this is not like me. Normally, I would have taken something like that and really chewed on it. But I didn't I like took from that feeling loved and appreciated and respected from a fellow thru hiker and went on with my day. I just remembered that because yeah, obviously, maybe some people had some stuff to say, but it wasn't my thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:50

Well, that got me. Oh, my gosh.

Anna Huthmaker 33:56

That is one of my favorite memories.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:58

Yeah, that is beautiful. And I can see how it could be construed either way. But as you did, you took it in the intention, I think it was given.

Anna Huthmaker 34:08

Absolutely. And that is 100% what he meant. And that right there is another really great example of something that I have learned and it's taken me fifty-three years. I'm fifty-three years old, to learn you can take anything two ways. You can look at any experience two ways. Every coin has two sides. We get to choose if I am in a normal state of mind, I choose to feel good about something. I choose to feel honoured and appreciated. I spend enough of my life worrying about feeling overweight and slow and not good enough and so I choose to not feel that way these days if I can at all help it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:08

Yeah, that's grand. I like that. And I know we've touched on a little bit might have been in our little chit-chat before we started recording. I can't remember now. That's a perimenopausal brain. How is the vision then of other women out there, either on the trail or in adventure? Has it changed now, do you feel to how it was all those years ago when you first went out on the trail? Do you think it's different now?

Anna Huthmaker 35:16

For me or for the world in general?

Anna Huthmaker 35:18

Actually, okay, that's great. It is different, you know. So again, I basically a little bit feel like the old lady on the trail. When I first started my own hiking, and when I first started Trail Dames, groups of women coming together, we would have these Yahoo groups online. It sounds so old-fashioned now, but we were small, there weren't a lot of us. It certainly was mostly people who really already did hike. There wasn't a lot of reaching out and pulling out other people and saying, Come on with us. As it is grown, watching clubs pop up everywhere, all over the world, like hundreds and thousands of clubs. It's become so accepted and normal. You know, I used to walk up to strangers in restaurants and say, I'm not a weirdo, but you seem really cool. Come join me at Trail Dames and now when you do that, they're like, oh, yeah, I hiked last weekend. It's not as unusual as it used to be, which is fantastic. But there will always be women that will appreciate the extra support and the help and the motivation. That will always exist.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 35:19

Both.

Anna Huthmaker 35:42

And it's not just necessarily because of size, either, is it? I mean, there, there are a whole wealth of reasons and diversity issues, that might mean that they haven't managed to get out there into the mountains, on the trails, even just walking or exercising.

Anna Huthmaker 36:44

Yeah. And it's a thing where maybe we don't know what we're capable of, or what we can do, and again, maybe it hadn't even occurred to us, like my greatest lessons happened, because they had not occurred to me. Let me tell you, I was so moved. I was listening to your interview on your podcast with Julia Goodfellow-Smith. Y'all had a conversation and you were talking about superheroes. Superpowers. Yes, yes, yes. And I think about this all the time with Trail Dames and I think about people who have no clue that they have superpowers. A couple of years ago, I went to Thailand, and I was volunteering on an elephant rescue thing. And it was me and one other woman my age, and then a whole bunch of twenty-two year olds, and most of them were from the UK somewhere. It was so fascinating that first day, we sat down and our little leader, he said, okay, right, go around in a circle. He said, I want you to say your name, where you're from, and your superpower. That was what he said. They went around every one of those young people. Now these are young people who were trekking across Southeast Asia, staying in hostels, doing volunteer work, basically being unbelievable, every last one of them. Every one of them went, my name is so and so, and I don't really have a superpower, every one of them. By the time they got to me, I was tied into knots. I told them, I went 'you people are killing me!' and they just looked at me like I had lost my mind. I told them, I said, 'How can you each not think you have superpowers?' I said, 'I'm sitting right here and I'm immersed in your superpowers. Because look at who you are and what you're doing. You could be sitting on a beach sipping Mai Tais, and you're shovelling elephant poop.' Like these are amazing kids. And I just went on, I said, 'but you're very lucky. Today's your day.' I said 'Because my superpower is recognising other people's superpowers and helping them find them.' Which is so great. And you know, I told them,'by the end of this week, every one of you is gonna know your superpower.' And it did happen that way. But the best part of the whole story when I finished doing that, because I was really, you know, tied up in knots. I was like, how could these people not see it and this young man looked at me, and he went, 'you don't understand. We're British'. He said it just like that. I was like, 'Okay, I understand. You don't have to be loud and obnoxious like an American. But...!'

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:14

It is a cultural thing. But thank goodness, their superpower Fairy Godmother turned up.

Anna Huthmaker 39:22

Thank you very much. Yes, but the reason and I'm circling back around because this is what I think. You know, I hope that in Trail Dames, not everybody that comes to Trail Dames needs to be told what their superpower is. We have a lot of assured women and they're like, 'Here I am to save the day'. But I think these women's organisations all over the world that are helping women, that is exactly what all of us are doing. We're helping other women. We're not helping them even get a superpower because we all have them and we all have more than one. But just shining and holding a mirror and going by the way, look at this mirror. There you are. That's your superpower. So that's what I think is more and more and more happening these days and all in women's outdoor stuff everywhere. You for sure - you big time are just holding up a mirror to your women and saying look at what you can do. You should be given out capes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:15

Cakes?

Anna Huthmaker 40:16

For heroes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:16

Oh capes, yeah, sorry. I'm focused on cakes now. Cakes and Y-fronts. Oh my gosh, so you're fifty-three, Anna.

Anna Huthmaker 40:33

I am.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:34

I didn't know you were fifty-three until we had a little conversation just before we started the recording and as far as I'm concerned, you're ageless, you know, you have no age.

Anna Huthmaker 40:43

God bless you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:45

You're welcome. But with that age comes a range of symptoms, sometimes. Little things that just kind of latch on to you and just go tap tap tap. I'm here, I'm here...

Anna Huthmaker 41:00

Is it getting hot in here?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:02

It might be getting a little hot and then I might be getting MOOOODY! No, I don't want to go for another work with you. I want to go on my own. So we're obviously talking a little bit about the penomause.

Anna Huthmaker 41:19

Yes, penomause. Merry Penomause.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:23

Merry Penomausal. Okay, I'm sorry, but it will always be that in my head now. So yes, perimenopause. So talk to me a little if you will, about your experience so far of this and how you feel you are coping with it? Are you still managing to get out and do the things that you'd love to do? Your Anna experience of it.

Anna Huthmaker 41:48

Well, okay, so it's such an interesting question, because first of all, I know that so much of your audience are women that are about our age, but I want to encourage all of your listeners to have your daughters listen to this too, because I spent my whole life growing up thinking menopause meant old and you know, that was what your grandma's did and for that matter of fact, being a grandma meant old. But when I got here, I looked around I was like, holy crap, I'm not old! I know women that are traversing the globe, sailing around the world, climbing mountains, starting HeadRightOut organisations. This idea that menopause, or the time leading up to it meant that you were really older, it completely is not true. I want young women to know that, I want them to know that because I kind of always thought that maybe that was like from there on out, we just get on a nice slide into retirement. Well, that's nowhere close. It just doesn't work like that. I also just want to say that no matter how much people try to describe to you what a hot flash feels like, it is not like the real thing. Like you think you know, you think you understand. And people have said to me a lot that it feels like you're baking from the inside out. And I never really got that until I got it. And you're lucky because I go through phases. I'll go through like six months of hot flashes, and I want to kill the world. And then I go through some when I'm not having them. I don't have them now and you're very lucky because I'm looking around my desk as we talk because normally, I have all these little vials of peppermint oil because someone had told me when a hot flash is coming to put peppermint oil on your neck and it really does help, it helps a lot. It doesn't make the hot flash go away, but all of a sudden, it's very cooling, so it's a lovely thing. But I don't need it right now which is good.

Anna Huthmaker 43:37

Here's the thing so, I think for a lot of us, I know for me it kind of snuck in there. So what is the difference between just being moody and it being a hormonal moody and it being a perimenopausal you know, if you're only going by your periods that gets a little weird, but okay, so fine. So I started my period getting weird, you know, do you have one every two months, whatever and be like, okay, maybe this is the time. But then we have COVID. And the thing about COVID is, I can't speak for everybody else, but I'm pretty sure I'm speaking for everybody else. For our mental health, it has been really difficult. It has. Everyone I know, our forcefield that helps us get through the day, our inner strength has gotten very thin and very fragile, and the smallest things just make us lose it. Because we just don't have a lot of bandwidth, emotionally. So now we're interesting, because my desire to rip your head off... is that perimenopausal or is it because the COVID has just left me without many resources. I can't really tell you which is which. I can tell you it's a challenge to face it all. But I CAN tell you, I am not proud but I'll take anything you give me. I will take therapy. I will take medicine. I will chant naked around a fire, if it will make me happy and fulfilled and able to move forward with my life goals, without wanting to kill somebody. I'll do it all. So yeah. There's my epic Anna-story of perimenopause.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 45:12

I love it. And in those moments of you want to kill everybody, are you completely off the radar of getting yourself outside and going for a walk? Would that even occur to you in those moments? How do you cope?

Anna Huthmaker 45:27

That actually that's a good question. So I live in a very large suburban area outside of a large town. So I live outside of Atlanta, Georgia, in suburbs. First of all, greenspace and getting to trails is not particularly easy, but there are you know, if you're willing to drive, there are beautiful, unbelievable trails. The beginning of the Appalachian Mountains. However, when the shutdown happened in the US, then when COVID hit everybody in their brother, who had never set foot on a hiking trail, decided they were going to, and maybe there's a little bit of perimenopause emotionality, but I just got really angry and on news and on social media, they would show pictures of these little country highways lined with parked cars. Illegally parked and the trail you would just have hundreds of people on it. That is not relaxing to me. I'm a little ashamed and embarrassed, but a little bit I was like, 'excuse me, that's my trail.' Newcomers need to go home and watch Netflix like everybody else. For me, that was the first time in decades literally hiking in the outdoors did not call to me. It infuriated me and it frustrated me and things have calmed down now and now I have gone back out hiking and it's much better. But yeah, that was a very strange thing to go through where the one thing that I normally use, it could be my you know, people talk about your safe space. Oh my gosh, the the mountains of North Georgia and North Carolina, that green tunnel all those trees that is my safe space. It makes my spirit at peace. Normally. Until COVID. But now we're back. So yeah, it was a strange time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 47:12

And would you feel that when you're hiking on your own as opposed to walking with somebody else. Would the criteria be that you need to go and do it solo?

Anna Huthmaker 47:21

It's so interesting, because people ask me a lot, 'do you prefer to hike with the Dames or by yourself?' And the answer is 'yes', because I spent years hiking by myself. It started because I was insecure and didn't believe I could keep up with other people or belong to a hiking group. But it quickly became that was my place of solace. Then with Trail Dames that quickly became so enriching and heart filling, I tell people my favourite sound in the entire world is the sound of women laughing through the trees. Because we would spread out up the trail, and we're not a quiet hiking group, by the way. You don't ever want to hike with us if you want to see wildlife. We tell people we are the wildlife! But that sound of women's laughter. Magic happens when you hike with women. You don't even know that within twenty feet of walking on dirt, underneath trees, you feel like you can share yourself with each other and you can laugh with each other and we cry with each other. So I love both equally and I need both, equally. Now when I go out by myself will I love a completely empty trail with no one but me. Absolutely. I know that's too selfish to ask for. I do live in a very populated area. But I'll take it anyway. I can get it though.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:35

So it's just being outside isn't it?

Anna Huthmaker 48:37

It really is, it really is.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:39

Mike and I got to walk some of the AT last year. We came over to New York in January. Two weeks in January beginning of February and we got back just before lockdown happened. But we made our way from New York via New Jersey and then up into Upstate New York to the Catskills and High Point I think, yeah I think we ended up at High Point. Anyway and a little bit of other stuff. We did two days of hiking one way on the AT and then hiking the other way on the AT and it just felt wonderful. I know I wasn't out there doing it for very long. Yes you know that's another dream of mine but just to be on that path that so many other friends and people I've read about or listen to as they're speaking, they have trodden that path. It just felt so good to finally be there and see that blaze. That AT blaze on the trees and I was thinking of you, and I was thinking of Sarah Williams from Tough Girl. There were so many people I was thinking of and it just felt good to be there and I was like, 'yes. One day.'

Anna Huthmaker 49:41

It is a magical place. I have to just say like for all your listeners like every trail has its own magic and its own energy. The Appalachian Trail, the energy of it, when we did Trail Dames' our very, very first Dames' hike, we hiked Springer mountain, which is the southernmost part of the Appalachian Trail. Now, this is not a good hike to take a group on. You have to go on a forest service road. It takes forever to get there. When you get there, it's just a mile up and a mile back. And it's a lot of work. And then there's not really great views. You know, it's just like this little unassuming in the middle of nowhere mountain with a plaque on it. But I tell people, like when you stand there, you can literally feel the hundreds of thousands of dreams that happened on that mountain. And you could feel it all up and down the trail. You know, anytime I step on the AT and like you said, when you see that white blaze, no matter what the weather, no matter what state you're in, no matter if it's muddy, or dry, or rocky, you can feel the dreams. The ground is marinated in them. And it's amazing. Amazing. Amazing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:42

That's just Oh, absolute beauty in that. The dreams are marinated in them. Yes. So, Anna, we are coming to the end of our conversation.

Anna Huthmaker 50:55

You do know you and I could do this for hours and hours and hours!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:59

And we have done because I you know, I've been on Trail Dames podcast twice with you. And then we've had other little chit chats as well. But yes, we do like to talk and and it's wonderful. And I just feel like we are connected by more than just the interest in walking. There's so much that we've got in common there. But I'm really interested to know about your HeadRightOut Moment. So this is a question that I ask all of the women that come on to the HeadRightOut Podcast. Do you have an experience, a moment where you think, geez, yeah, I actually stepped out of my comfort zone there, in the outdoors. It was something I didn't think I was ever capable of doing. And you might have talked about it already. And if you have, that's fine. But is there something that you could pinpoint where you go, yeah, that really was my HeadRightOut Moment, I stretched my comfort zone boundaries beyond belief... and benefitted from it?

Anna Huthmaker 51:53

It's very interesting, because I've had a lot because I grew up not thinking I could do very much. Stretching myself was not hard. Let me just say that, you know, I did not grow up thinking I could seize the day. I have to tell you, when I was doing my AT thru hike attempt, we were in Maine. And for those of you that aren't familiar with the AT, there's something called the Hundred-Mile Wilderness. And it's a hundred miles and for the most part, no road access, you have to really be ready. And then it's very rugged for me very, very difficult, very rugged. And we were probably about thirty five or forty miles into it. And I just looked at it. And of course I'm slower than I need to be because you got to be able to get through on the food that you're carrying. and I look at my hiking partner, her name is Bumpkin and I said 'Bumpkin, this isn't going to happen for me. I just can't move fast enough. This is really rugged hiking.' So we made a quick decision. And she left me and she we agreed on this. It was a good thing. She hiked off because she had she was marathon runner, she could do anything. And it started raining. And that was in the morning when she hiked off. And it rained for 24 hours. And I laid in my tent. And I alternately cried and attacked myself and was depressed and then cried some more for twenty four hours. And I realised that my will and my heart weren't enough. Like your body IS your limitation. No matter what you think, you know, I always thought I could do anything. Yes, you know, I'm short and rounded, but I can do anything. No, your body is a limitation. And I had this moment that I had physically stretched myself. Over-extended myself. Gone further than I certainly had ever gone before. But maybe at this point gone further than was smart or safe. Because at this point, like I'm literally in the middle of nowhere. And I'm praying that one of the logging roads that we crossed that if I just started walking on might at some point find my way out. This is what I'm praying, not a smart plan. I don't suggest that. But do you know the next morning I got up and I packed all my gear and everything's soaking wet and muddy and oh my god, I had this awful climb down this cliff like it looked like a cliff and it was these giant boulders and I was like, Oh, my leg muscles just don't have this. And this voice came to me and I'm not exaggerating. And I'm not trying to be silly and this voice went, 'You know what, this isn't your end, this is your beginning.' This is just the beginning. And it just kept saying that. And I literally I remember I stopped on the trail. And you can hear all the rain dripping off the trees, you know, and I was like, This is my beginning. You know, I didn't fail. I didn't make a mess of things. I still have to get myself out of the Hundred Mile Wilderness. But that's okay. And I'm sitting here today so we know that I did, but that voice was not my voice, and I will forever be grateful for it. Because if people say like what is the moment Trail Dames was born, I didn't have the name then, but that was the moment that I knew stuff was coming and I was going to do things. So that was my HeadRightOut Moment.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 54:57

That is a profound HeadRightOut Moment. Yep and she's off again...

Anna Huthmaker 55:02

I don't mean to make you cry. I'm sorry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:04

No, it's partly the story. You know that what it means I know how much that means, but also the way you deliver it as well. And it's just yeah, that is such a special story, and I've not heard that before. You know, I've obviously heard your podcast and listened to a lot of what you've said and read things by you but I've not heard that story before. It's a very, very special agrotech moment. Thank you, Anna.

Anna Huthmaker 55:26

Thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:28

Wow. So apart from making me cry, (no that's me), you have been just pure bubbles today, and pure positivity, and pure fun. There's something about you, Anna, that you just light up the room. And I know I've got my little grotto here...

Anna Huthmaker 55:48

I was going to say, you have some disco lights going on!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:53

But yeah, thank you for stepping into my grotto with me.

Anna Huthmaker 55:56

Well thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:57

And yeah, this has been absolutely incredible to hear you sharing your stories, and just giving us another step forward, another push of encouragement to say, you can do this. I know what you were saying earlier about knowing your body and knowing that your body is your limitation. Now, you do need to know your limits, and sometimes we do need to make that call that we need to perhaps step off the trail or step off an adventure that we're on because of safety. You know, we've got to keep others safe, we've got to keep ourselves safe, obviously. But what you shared there about that voice that came from somewhere, you know, that's your subconscious, just letting you know that actually don't cut it here. This is a new you. This is a beginning, this is something that if you don't do this, if you walk away from this now, you're not going to benefit from this experience, later on. Because now I can draw on that and say, Well, if I can do that I can do this. And it might just be something like stepping up in front of your first sea of people at your summit, at your very first summit. There's all sorts of ways that you can take those experiences into everyday life isn't there and I think that's what I found on my first long distance trail. I was able to take it into the workplace and into my everyday life and I didn't know I was going to get to do that. You don't know until you've done it.

Anna Huthmaker 57:24

You don't and I'll tell you magic happens. All you have to do is one thing, like break out of your comfort zone one little tiny bit. If it means going out on a kayak and you never thought you could do that, or go take a little class or whatever. Breakout one little bit and this magic thing happens. And I think that's the universe goes 'Aha, we got a live one.' And your little doors will start opening because I can tell you that there was a point in my life I didn't go ooh, I'm going to start an outdoor women's organization and I'm going to do a podcast I'm gonna do this. No, no, no, no, every one of those little things was a door that came up and as a result of something else. So pay attention like to step out just a little bit. HeadRightOut with Zoe, just one little bit and the universe will conspire to line up opportunities for you to do more and more and more. That's a cool thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 58:12

Perfect Thank you. So Anna, where can people come and share more magic with you online and the socials?

Anna Huthmaker 58:20

Everywhere and I think in the show notes you have all my links. You can learn about Trail Dames at www.traildames.com. If you are a woman who enjoys hiking, come to our Facebook page. It's a closed group, you do not have to be a member of one of the chapters. We have women from all over the world. And ahem, I would love to have an international chapter, I'm just saying to any of your listeners who feel like that's their, their moment to get out and start something new.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/traildames/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrailDames

The Trail Dames Summit:

http://www.traildamessummit.com

The Trail Dames Charitable Foundation:

http://www.tdcharitablefoundation.org

Zoe Langley-Wathen 58:45

Wouldn't that be great to spread overseas!

Anna Huthmaker 58:48

Oh, I've even we have a woman in New Zealand and I'm like going 'come on, we want to go to New Zealand', but like, come and join us because we are just low key. And it's not eight hundred messages a day. But we just celebrate each other and support each other and share pictures and everything of loving the outdoors. And yeah, and of course we'd love for you to come listen to the Trail Dames Podcast, we have this fabulous episode from this woman that you may have heard of her. Zoe Langley-Wathen. She's amazing. You should listen to that episode. It's really great.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:18

Thank you so much. Anna, is there anything else that you would like to say that I haven't given you the opportunity to talk about?

Anna Huthmaker 59:25

Just, thank you, Zoe. Like seriously, I want everyone to look at what you're doing and realise that you are literally putting your money where your mouth is. You are literally doing what you're asking other women to do. You know you are stepping out and taking chances and risks, and trying new things. So it's not just you like preaching from a pulpit. You're living it too, and so thank you for being such a motivation and inspiration to all the rest of us.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:51

Oh, thank you, Anna. Anna Huthmaker, thank you so much for coming on HeadRightOut, and I hope we can catch up with you again, some time soon.

Anna Huthmaker 1:00:01

Me too. It's my pleasure.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:00:11

Wow, how did that make you feel? While there were some potentially sensitive issues discussed. Anna has an extraordinary way of delivering them with such a fizz. I find myself being left with such a positivity and inspiration after talking with her. I have to admit through recording that with Anna, I smiled, and I laughed and I cried, but also whilst editing it, going back over it again, I smiled, I laughed. And yes, I cried again. Anna just lives her message of the things we do speak to other women. And I think that's something that I'm going to carry with me the things we do speak to other women. We have so much to offer, and so much to give, and so much to demonstrate, and we ARE what we live. Anyway, do go and listen to the Trail Dames Podcast, of which Anna is the host. It's so refreshing and so inspiring. And all of the links will be in the show notes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:24

Now I'm recording today somewhere completely different. I'm at my mum's, we've had quite a tricky few weeks, with mum being in hospital but she came out of hospital this week and she's taking some time in a care home, a local residential care home. And so I am sat in one of her rooms. I don't have a sound booth, no grotto. So if this sounds a little bit different, that is why.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:59

Our HeadRightOut Moment this week has been sent in by Frankie Dewar and Frit Tam. So it's a joint HeadRightOut Moment. What an amazing moment it is. I'm going to read you what Frankie has sent me. I'm sharing this HeadRightOut Moment for myself and my partner Frit, who set themselves the challenge of rollerblading and cycling around England to share stories from the LGBTQIA+ community. This project was so daunting for Frit as they couldn't rollerblade at all at the start of the year, and had never done a trip of this size before. It was also daunting for me, as I was the support crew, and there to film the entire time. It sounds like I got the easy job. But filming is so unbelievably hard. And I didn't really have that much experience to draw on. But for me, the bravest part was Frit, publicly coming out as transgender, just before the start of the trip, and taking on the challenge at a really early stage in their transgender story. It was an amazing thing to celebrate. But it was also hard at times, you would go to a new place and it would be hard to tell whether you were really safe there or not. People would ask Where are you going? Or what are you up to. And sometimes we felt safer just to say cycling to Brighton, rather than to tell people about the full extent of the trip. And that's what the trip is all about. To share more stories and raise the voices of people within the LGBTQIA+ community to show that we are here and we are welcome, so that people don't feel like they have to hide who they are. We're currently crowdfunding to make a film from the trip and all the interviews Frit did along the way. We'd love it if you could visit the page igg.me/at/glide-for-pride. And you can watch a trailer for the film and if you feel able to help us to share these stories. So there will be a link in the show notes to their Indiegogo crowdfunding page and I will also put links to Frankie's Instagram page and Frit's Instagram page. They are both hugely inspiring.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:04:26

Frankie is also host of the Extraordinary Ordinary You Podcast, which I was interviewed on last year. And Frankie is no novice to adventure because she took off last year and cycled for months around the UK, interviewing women who were older than her, who had stepped out of their comfort zone, if you like. Done adventures, done things that were a bit different. So that's why she came and chatted to me. Do go and check them out. And if you can spare any pennies, please go and check out the rewards that are being offered in return for a pledge to help back Frit's film. Such a positive message to get more LGBTQIA+ individuals represented in the outdoor arena.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:05:20

Okay, well, this was episode eight. If you love what you heard today, please share, follow and review the podcast, just to ensure that HeadRightOut can reach more women out there. New episodes land every Wednesday morning, and I hope you'll be back listening with me again. I am Zoe Langley-Wathen, and I wish you a week of fulfilling HeadRightOut Moments. I hope you are inspired to head out of your comfort zone, doing stuff that stretches you and makes your life richer as a result. See you next week.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:05:57

HeadRightOut Hugs to you all.
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Solo hiking & wild camping heaven vs. the darkness of depression and early menopause 007: Stephie Boon
20 oct 2021· HeadRightOut
Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:17

Hello, and welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. This is the show that hopefully will launch you into doing something that is way beyond your comfort zone. Something that you never believed you were capable of doing. Perhaps there's just a little seed of an idea growing and hopefully this is going to be the show that will spur you on that will give you the encouragement that you need to HeadRightOut. Now today, I have a lovely, lovely guest, somebody who I've been friends with online for many years. Her name is Stephie Boon, and I have to say she is so honest in her conversation with me, particularly about her experiences with mental health. I should add here that we do talk about the darker side of depression, anxiety, and feelings of suicide. So if you are not in the right frame of mind to listen, please feel free to skip this episode for another day when you're feeling in a better place. That said, Stephie is still very keen for women who suffer with depression to hear her story and understand that there's a light at the end of the tunnel. There ARE ways of coping and learning to manage this debilitating illness. We also touch on early menopause and living with a son with Aspergers and how above everything else, hiking just fuels our souls... and challenges... well, they help us to push us out of our comfort zone and they help to give us focus. There's a lot of things that Stephie and I have in common, and in addition to we both love hiking, we both feel the same about challenges, and funnily enough, we both have a degree in Fine Art in fact, Steffi has got post-grad in Fine Art. So we just have very similar viewpoints. It's a wonderful conversation, go and have a listen. Enjoy.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:21

Okay, and welcome everybody, back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen and I am here today with another wonderful guest. Today I am going to be chatting to Stephie Boon and I have a wee bio here to read out for you so Stephie lives in Cornwall, she spends a lot of time on the coast path. A woman after my own heart. She's been a walker and backpacker for as long as she can remember. One of her most significant past challenges was to hike the Inca Trail, before her fortieth birthday. She made it at thirty-eight! It was a charity track and the biggest part of the challenge was the fundraising.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:00

Nowadays she solo hikes and wild camps in the UK. At the moment her goal is to backpack all the national trails before she reaches sixty. So far she's completed the South West Coast Path, Offa's Dyke Path, the Cotswold Way, the South Downs Way, the Pedders Way and Norfolk Coast Path, and she says she's gradually working her way south to north. Stephie has an MA in Fine Art and always takes a sketchbook with her on her hikes. She plans to make a series of national trail paintings and possibly sell or publish them. Stephie shares her expertise and guides over on her website and on her blog, 10MileHike. She also suffers with serious episodes of depression, which was first treated for her in her early twenties. She's very open about this on her social media and within her blog, and she hopes that by sharing her experiences, she may inspire others to overcome personal difficulties and step out of their comfort zones. After all, life is just too precious not to do the things you've always wanted to do. There's also an article over on the 10MileHike blog called 'Fears Laid Bare' and I'll put the link to that in the show notes. It really does bear all, particularly about the biggest challenge that Stephie is facing at the moment, that she says is literally scaring the living daylights out of her. And that's something we'll come to in a moment. Stephie, welcome to HeadRightOut.

Stephie Boon 04:23

Hi Zoe, and thank you so much for having me. It's a real pleasure.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 04:29

It is an absolute pleasure and delight for me too and I should let the listeners know that we have been friends on social media for how long? Probably four or five years maybe?

Stephie Boon 04:39

Yeah, long time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 04:41

Feels like a long time and we feel like we know each other so well. We've had lots of conversations back and forth, and lots of support for one another and lots of Insta love. And now this is the first time that we've actually spoken... I want to say face-to-face.Well, this is as close as face-to-face as we're gonna get at the moment - it's Zoom-to-Zoom.

Stephie Boon 05:04

Live, I think is what we can call it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:08

Yes.

Stephie Boon 05:08

In real time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:10

So, Stephie, where did it all start with your love for hiking? You know you're setting out to cover all of these trails, but have you been hiking from a really early age?

Stephie Boon 05:20

Actually, this is quite interesting. I was sixteen when I went on my first backpacking trip with a couple of school friends, and we went to the South Downs Way. It was just a few days and we were just wandering around, as teenagers do completely clueless, just having as much fun as possible. But then, earlier this year, I realised it was forty years since my first backpacking trip, and I decided to celebrate that by going back to the South Downs. And I walked the South Downs Way, which is part of what I walked when I was a teenager. So I decided I'd stay at one of the youth hostels that we'd stayed at when I was young, as it was a bit of an anniversary. An anniversary hike.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:17

And a trip down memory lane too.

Stephie Boon 06:20

Yes, yeah. It was really funny actually, because my memories of that trip was bright sunshine, and hot and beautiful scenery. And this time it just rained. And storms, big winds, forty-fifty mile an hour winds. So a very different experience.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:42

It's interesting, isn't it? Because very often, when people are recounting their stories from their teenage hiking experiences or camping experiences, very often it's the other way around. You know, they had an awful time and their feet hurt, they had blisters and it rained like the devil, and they swore they would never, ever do it again. And "how dare they" whoever 'they' were, you know, perhaps it was parents or school, "how dare they make me do this"? So you had an amazing experience by the sounds of it.

Stephie Boon 07:15

It was. I always have really good memories of it. Just getting out into the countryside, just seeing these amazing views, that I'd never experienced before. And just feeling completely at home really. That was realising I think that I was most at home in the outdoors, and walking, cycling, whatever it might be.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 07:40

Yeah, I can relate to that. At home in the outdoors. Definitely. So how long was it before you then went off and did another hike?

Stephie Boon 07:48

Oh, probably quite a long time. Years, I would think. I did a cycling/bike-packing trip afterwards, which again wasn't particularly far. I think it was about a week, something like that, again along the south coast, all along the Seven Sisters. Then I went to art school, and most of the walks that I was doing then really were around the coast path and still cycling, but no major goals, I suppose. Everything else seemed to be... my focus was very much art at the time. That was just my absolute passion, I think was art. But I was still drawing the landscape walking in and drawing. You know, taking everything with me and drawing outside. Then we did the usual holidays. Walking holidays just in this country - Lake District mostly.

Stephie Boon 08:50

Then I had my son and it became family camping holidays on Exmoor, wild camping on Dartmoor. I think the first time I went solo wild camping was probably twelve years ago now and haven't looked back since. That's when hiking became a thing I felt I needed to do.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 09:16

So in some ways, then although you had met and identified with hiking a long time ago, would it be correct to say that you didn't really feel the need for it - you didn't identify with it as something that made you feel better in your life until midlife?

Stephie Boon 09:33

I think I did realise that, but I don't think I realised that it could give me the challenges that it does. And it's the challenge that I thrive on now. I think previously it was mainly enjoyment, you know about being outside and just loving nature and knowing that when I was feeling ill that was where most people might think you retreat inside, but I retreated outside. It's just where I felt the need to be. And I've always escaped to the outdoors. on my own.

Stephie Boon 10:12

It was my way of just being - allowing myself to just be. It wasn't, I think, until I started really wild camping on my own, that I saw that I could create these challenges, which is what excites me now. And how you can overcome personal difficulties, it's a wonderful place to step outside your comfort zone, and to show it's a really odd phrase, but to prove to yourself, what you're made of, really, and what you can do. And it's funny, I'd never thought of myself as a resilient person at all. I've never felt that I bounced back from things particularly quickly. But I realised over the years, I'm actually a very tenacious person, and I will hang on and push myself through when things are very difficult, whether that's hiking or life in general, I feel the need to just grip hard onto things. And just a sheer determination will get me through difficult things.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:20

It's so wonderful to hear you talking like that Stephie, because I, actually in hearing a lot of what you're saying, I feel it could be me talking, there are so many things there that I connect with, and in particular, the needing a challenge. I mean, I didn't discover until I was forty, that it was actually the challenge that I thrive on. So yeah, doing, yeah, going off long distance walking, facing some of those things that are perhaps out of my comfort zone, and that I had perhaps avoided previously, suddenly, it's like, oh, gosh, this is this is what I need. I love being outdoors. But the challenge is definitely what I need. And it sounds like yes, that it is for you too. It's fabulous.

Stephie Boon 12:08

I think when I hiked the Inca Trail, I'd run a business for fourteen years, and we made hand-painted kitchens and furniture. So time was very precious, you had very little free time, and I was just determined that before the age of forty, I was going to do something that was challenging, and was something I'd always dreamed of doing, which was trekking or hiking in an environment that I had never been in before. And I think when I did that, and the physical challenges are huge, you know, hiking at altitude, that you're not used to. People dropping like flies from altitude sickness, and that's really not something that you can predict. You either get, it or you don't. It's just one of those things. It's got nothing to do with fitness or health. And I was lucky, I didn't have that. So I did plod along these really high places, and the feeling of euphoria that you have when you get to the top and you look down and you think, 'I've done that, I've walked that'. That was the realisation, I think that it's actually the challenge that I love.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 13:35

But it took a while then I think to find other challenges, because of other life difficulties. Now I had a long term relationship just fell apart. I was with my son's father for twenty-three years. After the business collapsed, then we collapsed, and I think it just took a long time to find who I was amongst all that fairly negative, extremely stressful part of life. Yeah, I feel like I've come out of all of that on the other side, but there are lots of other challenges and that's due to health and finances, basically. Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:22

Wow, there's a lot in there that I'd like to just tease into if that's, okay?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:28

All of those things that you go through as well in life, particularly that relationship split, and I can totally relate to that, because that happened to me some years ago, and at the time, I was just in the wilderness and didn't know where I was going, who I was, what I was going to do, and I just felt like my whole world had fallen apart. That was a long term relationship too. But I think now in hindsight, I can see how I've learned from it, how I've benefited from it and each of those painful episodes have just added to my colorful tapestry of life. And I talk about life as being like a tapestry. And it's a bit floppy to begin with, because we don't have many skeins of thread in that tapestry. But the more skeins of thread that are added, the stronger it becomes, and the more resilient we become. And it just builds up our coping mechanisms and our ability to be able to manage a situation next time, it might not be a similar situation. But I think it just builds us and it also makes us more aware of other people's situations, it gives us more empathy, which I think is also important as people, you know, we obviously need that.

Stephie Boon 14:28

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 15:40

It's interesting, so you've talked about going through some difficult times, and then finding things that would help you. Finding yourself. Finding challenge. But you talk about fears, things that scare you on your blog, and I'd like to tease back into that in relation to what you've just been talking about. How have those fears affected you, and would you like to talk to us about what those fears are?

Stephie Boon 16:09

Yeah, when you suffer from regular bouts of long periods of depression, and feeling suicidal, I've had significant periods of my life where I've been in the mental health system with CPNs (community psychiatric nurse) for years and years, and one of the things that being in that situation is that it's very difficult to have a regular income, because there are periods where you can't work. I haven't worked for a very long time, because of illness, and because of another issue that I have. This is something I don't talk about a great deal, but my son has Asperger's, and it affects him mostly with really high anxiety. And that puts constraints on what I can do. I spend a lot of time anxious about him, I spend an awful lot of time being anxious about money and finances, and I am living on the bare minimum, basically, you cannot say, at all. So I have this little pot of savings. And I've been keeping it as an emergency fund. But it's really strange because this money is tiny. It's sat there for a couple of years doing nothing. And you suddenly think, 'well, what am I going to do, am I gonna leave that there for another five years and do nothing and not experience life in the way that is meaningful to me? Or am I just going to overcome the fears that I have of spending some of that money on investing in myself and my own wellbeing mental health?' And this year, I have walked three national trails using some of those savings, and it has scared the living daylights out of me. I mean, it really has because you feel well, I have nothing, what if something else goes wrong. And now I just think Well, as I said to I think a word I've always used to describe myself is 'tenacious', and I just think if something else happens, I'll just hang on in there until I can find a solution. So why not just invest in in myself and go out, jump in feet first, and do something that hopefully will inspire other people or might inspire other people. But even now just talking about spending some of that money doing hiking, I can feel myself shaking, thinking 'oh my god, what if, what if!'

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:01

But I'm so pleased that you did actually take some of that, to go off and do those trails. I mean, I was following you throughout the summer, and even up until just a couple of weeks ago when you finished your last walk and I could see how much you were benefitting from it. Did the fear subside whilst you are actually out on the trail?

Stephie Boon 19:21

Oh, I didn't give it a thought. Not a single thought! It's just when I get back home and my world feels very, very small, when I'm at home. I don't have a car. Travel is not easy using public transport. So I think when your world is small, you tend to... I particularly... focus on the negative or I focus on the more difficult things, whereas when I'm outside and you're looking at this beautiful, spacious environment, you become spacious yourself.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 20:02

I love that. I absolutely love that. When you're outside, you become spacious. And it fills your soul, doesn't it?

Stephie Boon 20:09

It really does, it feels like your whole body is this space to fill it up with wonderful things, whereas when I'm at home, I feel small and withered. I'm sitting here and I'm imagining a funnel on the top of my head, and trying to fill that funnel with good things. But when I'm at home, my body feels so small, and that there's not enough space to put anything else in, because I'm constantly worrying about how I'm going to get through the day, how I'm going to get through the next week. Whereas when I'm outside that just goes and you can fill up with life; with what life actually is. Where it's meaningful, where you are, where you really feel you ARE part of nature, you ARE nature. You're not separate from it, which I think is what our society forcing us into these small spaces does. It disconnects us from what we really are, which is part of nature.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:21

We are one hundred percent that, and a lot of people don't see that, because it's very much about the material things. We're a very commercial world, aren't we? Sadly.

Stephie Boon 21:31

Yes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:32

Just then going back to how you feel out on a trail, compared to how you feel when you're indoors. You know, you said you're feeling very small, very withered. It sounds like you're feeling very restricted, whereas when you're outside, you're feeling free. If you are planning... so let's say you're indoors, and you've been indoors for months, but you suddenly have an idea to walk a trail, but you know, you can't do it for another, say another six weeks. If you are then focused on planning that trail, does that change your mindset? Does that change how you frame your day and how you feel.

Stephie Boon 22:13

Zoe, I plan NOTHING!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:15

Oh Stephie, I love you!

Stephie Boon 22:20

It's terrible, the thing for me is complete freedom. You cannot plan for the unexpected. I think being completely free is about having no plans at all. The plans I have are the day I leave, and the day I will come back, how I'm going to travel. I've worked out roughly how many miles on average I will need to walk whilst I'm away. But then when I'm away, I might think I'm going to walk twenty-five miles today and I'll do eleven the next day, because there's somewhere I'd like to spend some time, or I might be hiking along and I'm wild camping, and you might find a wonderful place where you'd like to stop that might be, I don't know, five miles short of where you were planning to get to that day. But because you have the flexibility, and you don't have the fixed plans, you can do that.

Stephie Boon 23:25

So the planning for me, I think, when I'm at home is planning, when I'm going to go, how I'm going to do it, it'll be planning, and I'm really not very good at this, but planning the things that I need to take on my back, that will sustain me, give me shelter over the time that I'm away. And I've only just really begun to think, 'right well, next year, I am going to do X, Y and Z'. And I'm going to try I guess you could say that the trouble with doing what I've done this summer is that once you've had that experience, you really want more.

Stephie Boon 24:12

The only way I'm going to be able to do that is if I can afford the train fares. So I'm trying my best to put a plan in place so that I can afford some train fares, next year. That's where my planning comes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:29

Yeah, I can understand that. And you're creative - you're creative in so many ways. So I'm sure you'll work out something that will make that happen for you. As far as the anxiety goes, and I'm really sorry to hear that you have gone down into that deepest, darkest pit that has taken you to thoughts of suicide. I know this will potentially be a trigger for quite a few people.

Stephie Boon 24:58

Yeah. I hope that my experiences will enable people to see that you can come through, even though in those darkest times you feel like, there's never going to be a way out.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:14

Do you have people? Were you're dealing with this alone?

Stephie Boon 25:18

I have a strong medical support. It gets that bad at times, and I know that I can always find and access that support when I need it. Whereas I think a lot of people going into realising that they need help, more help than friends or family can give, I think it's difficult to know where to go to find that. But I've always had access to that through my GP, through the mental health team, psychiatrists, therapists, all of these things, but I went through a particularly low period last year, and I changed medication again, which is a constant theme. I changed medication again earlier this year. And it takes a few months for that to hit, for that to work. But I think that after so many decades of this kind of illness, I'm only just beginning to realise the thought processes or what's happening around me that indicate that I need to seek help before I get further down into that cycle. And that can be things like, I might notice that all I'm eating is bread and pasta - so carbs. Or that I really don't feel like going outside. That's a big one for me, when I know that the thing that I know, helps maintain mood at a reasonable level, when I feel that the motivation to do that, the energy to help myself in that way, I know that I need to go and find help.

Stephie Boon 27:19

So, to go back to the beginning of this complete ramble, my hope is that if somebody feels that I'm talking about triggering things, that I am proof, I suppose that you can come through these things - again and again. And that's not to diminish how difficult it is, because it's really tough. It's really tough.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 27:46

So you can get through it, I get a sense that you're saying that you CAN get through it. It's not necessarily something that goes away. It's something that you are living with.

Stephie Boon 27:55

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 27:55

But you learn to recognise the warning signs, and you now know what to do, where to get help, how to handle your own mental health, to ensure that you don't end up in the bottom of that pit again.

Stephie Boon 28:12

Yeah, yeah and I think I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but I think that if you go through cycles of depression, constantly, throughout a life, then that's what you need to do. That's what I've learned through therapy, is help to understand the changes around me to notice them, so that I can step in and help myself.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:41

Good, yeah.

Stephie Boon 28:41

Basically.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:43

Yeah, well, yes, so that is an important one, isn't it? And did you find that things became harder for you throughout your son's childhood years, both with your mental health and being able to get outside and do those things that you needed or wanted to do? Could you get out for walks? Could you handle things when your son was young, because obviously, having children is a challenge in its own right, but having a son with Asperger's is another layer of challenge as well.

Stephie Boon 29:18

He wasn't diagnosed until he was seventeen, so I just thought he was a pain in the bum.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 29:29

That's probably how half the teachers described him as well!

Stephie Boon 29:33

Yeah. Oh, yeah. When you look back and his father has Asperger's, and again, he was diagnosed as an adult, but when you look back, you can see all the... you can see it there. I mean, it's as plain as day. But it wasn't really until... and I think this is quite typical of Asperger's and autism. It wasn't until my son went through big changes in HIS life, so changing schools, moving from school to sixth form college, and then on to university; it's when those things happen, that the stress that you go through is huge. Because understanding what he's dealing with, it's like, trying to understand an alien.

Stephie Boon 30:27

Try as you might, you can never completely put yourself in someone else's shoes, whatever their shoes might be, whether it's chronic pain, or illness or something like Asperger's. I split with my son's dad when when my son was ten, and it was probably actually easier in some respects, because we co-parented. So my son was with me for a week, and then he was with his dad for a week, and we lived only three miles apart from each other. But because I had that week, that was when I was able to walk, get out on the coast, and just recharge, I suppose as batches. But it was never, I think that was definitely more walking for health, rather than walking for a 'challenge', and to fill my soul. I recognise that it does fill my soul.

Stephie Boon 31:34

One of the things, it's a bit mad, really, but if I notice that my mood is dropping, I think everybody tells you that walking is good for mental health. I've got to go walking every single day. Then I go into overdrive and I'm walking fifteen miles every day. And it's just getting the balance right, isn't it? But yeah, so when my son was younger, I think walking was more about health. Obviously it was pleasurable, but it was much more about maintaining an even keel through life rather than the challenges that I know I've always enjoyed. And I've always enjoyed doing them alone.

Stephie Boon 32:25

I think actually, I was thinking about this prior to this chat with you. When I was young, I was a teenager, a young teenager. And I remember thinking, I'd asked someone to do something with me, I can't even remember what it was now, but they didn't want to do it. And I remember thinking, Well I have to do this on my own then, because if I don't do things on my own, there's no guarantee that somebody else has the same interests as me or wants to do the same things as me. So am I going to deny myself the things that might be pleasurable or fulfilling simply because I don't have somebody to hold my hand? I think that that has been my mantra I suppose throughout my life, as you cannot expect somebody else to come along with you, because you need someone to hold your hand. You have to jump in and be your own friend. That sort of manifests itself in the simplest of things, like I will go to the cinema on my own and I have friends who say how do you do that? How on earth can you go on your own? I think 'I go to a ticket booth, I buy a ticket, I go and sit in the dark. and I watch a film!'

Stephie Boon 33:44

Or you know, how can you get into a pub on your own? How can you go to a cafe on your own? It's just those little things that then enable you to think, 'oh yeah, I can do that. I can go swimming on my own I can do this on my own maybe I can do the next bigger thing on my own'. Because if I want to go wild camping, which is what I love, absolutely love and I did a fair bit of it on Dartmoor with my son and his dad. And I thought after we split up will this just stop now because I don't have somebody to do it with? And I thought 'no, it damn well doesn't! You get out there and you do it on your own'. And it's been THE most liberating, wonderful thing. To know that you're doing something that you love and nobody else has been affected by your needs to fulfill your own needs.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:52

Yes, but I remember how freeing how liberating it was when I wild camped for the first time and then I just thought 'why have I left it so long. This is absolutely amazing whatever was I frightened of?'

Stephie Boon 35:04

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 35:05

And what I love hearing you talk, Stephie is, you know, you're somebody who clearly was resilient as a child as a teenager. I mean, you had those foundations there already. And I know, actually, I guess a lot of children do - not all - but a lot of children do. But it does break down as we get older, yeah, by culture, or by the people we're with, or just by chemical makeup in our body. But what I love so much hearing you talk, is to hear the fact that you still have these struggles, in one hand. You are somebody who is very open about struggling with their mental health. And yet, in the other hand, you are fighting everything that's in this hand... in the right hand you are fighting it, and you're saying, 'No! I have got to go and do this. Because if I don't do this, I might not get the chance to, because other people may not want to come with me, why should I off-load MY dreams and MY ideas onto other people? This is my thing!' And I love that those two actually work in harmony, they work in balance with one another. Because, you know, I come from a family where my mother suffers with mental health problems and has done for years and years. So I understand, and I understand from her standpoint, that she does retreat indoors and she doesn't go out. She can't now because of her age. You know, she is housebound. But for many, many years, she wasn't able to go out because her head told her she couldn't go out. And this is what I am just so pleased that you have found that - that you have found a way to say no, my head is actually bringing me down. I know I need to go out.

Stephie Boon 37:00

Yeah, it's just, I still go out with constraints. As I said, my son has severe anxiety. So when I'm hiking, I'm having to... I get text from him. Where are you? Where are you wild camping? He's never happier than when I go to a campsite. And I'm never more miserable than when I'm on a campsite!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:32

Yes. I know that feeling.

Stephie Boon 37:35

We've worked out... I mean, he's twenty-three. His is no longer a child, but he does live at home. So we have this agreement that I will let him know where I am, so that he feels safe and secure. But I still have the freedom, I suppose too. And I have to say this, Zoe - sometimes I do pretend there was no reception! Which is terrible!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:08

No, for your own mental health and your own sanity, sometimes you do need to switch off, don't you? And it's a gentle way of giving him that message that well, yeah, maybe we've not been in contact today, but I'm sure everything's okay.

Stephie Boon 38:23

I have to say that most of that will be during the day. If he contacts me during the day. I just think 'No, this is absolutely MY time, and we've agreed that I will tell you where I am when I've pitched up my tent, and I'm sticking to that'.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:43

So there's something else I want to ask you about, Stephie, because I know you've had many challenges throughout your life. We've touched on those, but there's something that we haven't discussed yet, and something certainly for midlife women that, you know, as we go through from our forties upwards starts to become more apparent, or we start hearing more or we're just more aware, and that is the menopause. We had a little conversation just before we started recording, and I actually WISH we had recorded that because you told me your age. There was this deathly silence because I did not know you were the age you said are, and in my notes that I made last night about the sorts of things that I wanted to touch on with you, the menopause certainly wasn't one of them, because I thought you were in your early forties and nowhere near that yet! But actually, that was very dismissive of me. I was making assumptions and even if you had been in your early forties, from what you told me, this would have still counted. So first off Stephie, would you mind sharing how old you are, please?

Stephie Boon 39:55

No. I am fifty-six and I think when you introduced me, I think you said that I planned to walk all our national trails by the time I'm sixty. And I think that before you knew my age, you probably thought I had plenty of time...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:14

I did! Because I read through your bio last night and thought oh well, she's got years to do that. Like, one a year...!

Stephie Boon 40:25

It's creeping up incredibly quickly. I'm going to have to save a lot of money and do a lot of miles.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:33

How many trails? Is it eighteen national trails?

Stephie Boon 40:36

There are fifteen. But there are some in Scotland, which if you look at the Long Distance Walking Association, that you can include some of those and get some major certificate. Anyway, yes, I'm fifty-six.

Stephie Boon 40:56

But I went through the menopause early, and I was thirty-eight when I really noticed, I think, perimenopause.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:05

That was when you were walking the Inca Trail then?

Stephie Boon 41:07

Yes, and I remember at the time, I went to my GP, I had no idea what was happening to my body at the time. But I went to see my GP and she gave me some magic pills, that meant I wouldn't have a period whilst I was away, so that was fine. But this is quite gross, but I discovered that I was in that phase of life actually, whilst I was wild camping in, I think it was Dartmoor somewhere. People really don't talk about the details of menopause, or perimenopause. But heavy bleeding is part and parcel of that, and I woke up completely out of the blue, literally, in a pool of blood, that made me look like I was a murder victim. I just thought, 'this isn't right. This is something I need to speak to my GP about'.

Stephie Boon 42:14

So having no idea that it could be perimenopause, I went to my GP, who I knew, and she was asking all these questions. 'Do you have hot flushes?' I've had maybe a couple but you know, it's just hot in the office. 'Do you have night sweats?' Yeah, but it's just hot under the duvet. 'Is there a history of early menopause in your family?' Yeah, I think my Nan went through an early menopause and she said, 'well, I'm really sorry'. And I looked at her and I thought sorry, about what what are you talking about? I mean, it really did not register at all that she was telling me that this was what was happening. And I came away in absolute floods of tears. And I don't know why it was it felt so devastating at the time, but it really did. It was just, I think, possibly I'd wanted another child, even though I was quite late for that. But the difficult thing came and I don't know if it's different now for people because obviously this was quite a long time ago now. But I felt incredibly alone at that period of time because none of my friends or contemporaries were going through this. They had no idea what happens to you or how... oh my god, if I think about my moods, not just the physical things, but your mental health and how it affects you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 43:54

Could you sleep?

Stephie Boon 43:55

No, I was always awake. I'd sleep on towels, trying to soak up the sweat that some people have. Now, I know, talking to friends now, but that's not unusual. But at the time, I had absolutely no idea. There were no books, everything that was written about menopause was aimed at people in their fifties and I felt I had no connection to that. They were talking about things like Empty Nest Syndrome. My child was FIVE!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 44:36

Gosh, that puts it into perspective then doesn't it? Good grief. And so how long did that period of perimenopause last for you, Stephie?

Stephie Boon 44:46

I think I was forty-two/forty-three maybe, when I had my last period. So it's quite common, apparently that with early menopause, that the period of perimenopause can actually go on for ten years. So on and off for a long period of time. But I say luckily, I feel quite lucky, that didn't happen.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 45:17

Five years. Yes. Sounds like.

Stephie Boon 45:19

Yeah, maybe five, seven, on and off, it was. I tell you what, once you're through the other side, it's an absolute gift. It really is. I mean, especially if you're an outdoors person, you don't have to worry about dealing with any of that. So when younger women or women, my age, going through it now, talking about the difficulties of going on long distance hikes, and how they're managing menstruation, I haven't had to deal with that for so long, I've forgotten what that's like! But I don't ever recall it stopping me from getting outside and doing the things that I love to do outside. It's whether that's, I mean, I had a horrible experience wild camping. But it didn't stop me going wild camping. There's nothing in the world that would stop me doing that. You learn how unpredictable. It's a bit like camping, or hiking, really, there are things that you cannot predict, and you don't know what's going to happen. You just have to make the best preparations that you can. It's like whether that's carrying everything that you might need, just in case, or knowing where campsites are, just in case.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 46:44

And it's a level of planning - I know you don't like planning - but it is a level of planning, isn't it? Knowing that you've got that backup... mitigating risk...

Stephie Boon 46:54

An escape route!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 46:58

Well, we've got probably two more things that I would like to ask you before we wrap up, and we're coming towards the end of time now. I am really interested to know, given all of the things that we've talked about, how do you give yourself encouragement during those hardest times? Do you have any methods of self talk? You know, what encouragement do you give yourself? What mantras, I mean, you have given us one mantra already, which was amazing. But is there is there something else that you talk to yourself about when you're going through those difficult times?

Stephie Boon 47:33

When things are really dark and difficult. It's the mantra I've already mentioned is: "you are tenacious. You have proved to yourself over and over again, that you can get through this. You are tenacious."

Stephie Boon 47:49

Remember that. Tell yourself that, and that's what I do. Actually, I was thinking about this the other day - this absolutely cracked me up when I heard it the first time. Janet Street-Porter, of all people, I heard an interview with her a long time ago now. And she said, "as soon as I wake up, as soon as my head comes off that pillow, I tell myself how brilliant I am. Because no other bloody bugger is going to tell you."

Stephie Boon 48:14

I thought at the time that's so funny, but there is no way I could ever tell myself I'm brilliant, because I just don't believe it. So I think that for me, a mantra has to be something I absolutely believe about myself, and that maybe I've just forgotten and need a reminder. And it is to remind myself that I WILL get through whatever is thrown at me. There is always a way through because I have proved it to myself already. So I know that that's a fact.

Stephie Boon 48:53

This is a bit daft as well, but when I'm in a good space, you know, I think a lot of people are very negative, that they have a very negative body image. And I know that when my mood is low, I can't bear the sight of myself. And I walked down the streets I catch a glimpse of myself in a reflection of a shop window, and I would just berate myself. Now whenever I catch myself in a reflection somewhere, I smile. And I just think, I look at myself as if I'm meeting a friend or a stranger. I may not be able to talk to myself that way. But I will look at myself that way. And if somebody I knew was coming towards me, I would smile and say hello. So I always smile at myself. It's probably this weird random woman walking down the street grinning at myself.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 49:52

I think that is just lovely. And actually if I can be so forward as to push that a step further. If you saw a friend walking towards you, wearing a beautiful dress or wearing some wonderful walking gear, even, you would probably say to them, "oh, hello! You look wonderful today! Oh, you look gorgeous! OR, you ARE beautiful". And so yeah, there you go. I have said it Stephie.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:23

It's that little voice on your shoulder, isn't it and the more that the Negative Nancy on one shoulder is telling you these things in your ear, I know it seeps into your psyche. And so somehow you have to find a way of having Positive Polly, I've just made those two up, on the other side, that is just going to feed you with good stuff. And if saying it doesn't work, then perhaps writing it down will. You know, maybe having something that you write every day that tells you...

Stephie Boon 50:53

I have named the negative person that I have felt pushes me up against the wall and shouts all this negative stuff so loudly that I believe it, as Benito... as in Mussolini. And now I tell Mussolini - Benito, that I'm not listening anymore.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:19

Get lost! Get lost.

Stephie Boon 51:21

La, la, la, la, I'm not listening. But it is hard. It's very hard when you're used to having that voice in your head that is so intense and so loud, I found that the only way I can overcome it is to disassociate myself from it. To call it, it's like another person inside my head and not having that person in my head. Why would anybody want Benito in my head. It's finding those coping strategies, those counteractions and finding what works for you, and certainly grinning at myself randomly in the reflections is positive.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 52:04

So the very last thing that I want to ask you, Stephie is the question that I ask everybody else: do you have a HeadRightOut Moment that you could share with us? Something where you have stepped out of your comfort zone and done something that you never thought possible, you never thought you were capable of? But you did it, and you've benefitted from it?

Stephie Boon 52:27

Yes. In recent years, I was going hiking, I think probably for a week on the South West Coast Path, on the north coast, sort of in Devon somewhere, and somebody I'd met and didn't know. But I met them said, oh, I'd like to join you for a day for a walk. And I said, yeah, that would be great, come along. He was actually based in Devon and I met him on a course that I was doing, which was that I trained as a lowland leader, and he was on the same course. And I said, Yeah, come for a walk for a day. So I got this message saying, I've rearranged my entire work week, and I can now come for the week, and I was floored. Absolutely speechless. Dumbstruck. I just did not know what to say, or how to say, "No".

Stephie Boon 53:25

So this man came on this walk with me, wild camping, and the entire time, I felt unbelievably passive aggressive. Was hanging behind thinking, if only it was legal to push you over the cliff, he'd be gone! He talked about hiking on a Greek island somewhere and how much he loved this, and he just constantly talked about it, which meant I didn't feel I had the time to enjoy where I was, to be in the moment.

Stephie Boon 53:58

So when I got home from that, and I recounted this story to friends, they said, well, you'll definitely know how to say "no" now, don't you? And I thought, this is my HeadRightOut Moment. I now know when to say "no", and how to say "no". I know that that's possibly not the kind of moment that you were thinking of, but for me, that was a major 'I-need-to-do-this-for-myself-and-I-need-to-do-it-without-compromise'. And that was a big compromise. It was that moment of understanding. I don't walk with people on long distance hikes like that, for this reason, and I let it happen because I didn't know how to say "no".

Zoe Langley-Wathen 54:46

There's actually two sides to that, isn't there? Because you've learned that yes, you need to be able to say no, and I think that will become another HeadRightOut Moment, at the point where you are put in that position - and that possibly hasn't happened yet. But yeah the HeadRightOut Moment that I see there is actually just going ahead and walking with this guy for a week. But underneath it all you're all gr,gr,grrrrrrrrrrr!

Stephie Boon 55:13

It was terrible.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:14

How on earth did you cope?

Stephie Boon 55:15

I am not an early morning person at all, and when I am camping, it takes me ages to pack everything up because I feel like a complete zombie. Just so slow, and he sent me a text one morning saying, "wakey-wakey!"

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:35

Argggh!

Stephie Boon 55:36

Absolutely. I was so livid, and I didn't say anything. I just kept silent and held all this anger. I thought why should I be doing this? I will never let that happen again.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:57

I wonder if he thought you were a moody wotsit.

Stephie Boon 56:00

Quite likely. Quite likely.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:02

That's the polite version... a moody wotsit!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:07

Well, Stephie This has been an absolute treat. We've had a chance to catch up. You've shared a lot of wonderful experiences with us and with me that I haven't heard before. And I just hope that at some point soon here, we actually get to meet face-to-face and go on a LITTLE walk together. It's alright - not a long distance one! Just a little one.

Stephie Boon 56:30

I wouldn't mind you Zoe, at all! I think it was just this particular person.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:36

I wouldn't want you to be passive aggressive with me - haha!

Stephie Boon 56:39

No I wouldn't, I wouldn't!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:41

Well, if I'm coming down to Cornwall, and I'm coming down your way, I will give you a ring. I have your number now.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 56:50

I HAVE YOUR NUMBER... hehe...

Stephie Boon 56:54

When I'm planning to walk the Pembrokeshire Coast Path, this is my plan for next year so I will give you a call.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 57:01

That would be fabulous. So, Stephie, where can people find you on social media and online?

Stephie Boon 57:07

I have a website and blog called 10MileHike, which is all one word, and that's a 1, 0. You can find me mostly on Instagram, where it's TenMileHike again, but unfortunately it had to be spelt T.E.N - 10MileHike, because the number had actually gone. They are the main places that you can find me. But I've also just set up a Ko-Fi account and it's like a mini-blog so I can post little bits and pieces.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 57:44

Is that where people can go and buy you a coffee if they want.

Stephie Boon 57:46

Yes. Yeah,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 57:47

That's brilliant. Yes. Well, thank you so much. This has been wonderful and I hope people go and check you out on Instagram and do go and check out Stephie's website because she's completely overhauled it. It is fabulous. There is SO much information on there and she's got a beautiful way of writing.

Stephie Boon 57:49

Thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 58:01

It flows and I was chuffed to be included in her Woman Afoot Series, as well, where I talked about my walking experiences there too.

Stephie Boon 58:16

Zoe, it was a pleasure. It's been an absolute pleasure. Nerves have completely gone.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 58:22

Yaaay! Stephie Boon, thank you very much.

Stephie Boon 58:25

Thank you. Take care, Zoe!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 58:35

Oh my word. What a raw and honest conversation that was with Stephie. Perfect for World Menopause Day too, which was the 18th of October. And as this goes live on the 20th of October, it's the same week. It's all about encouraging conversations surrounding menopause. I know a lot of thoughts may be generated regarding mental health too, from the conversations that Stephie and I had about her difficulties with mental health. And I hope that if you have any issues or any worries about a friend that you will take a moment to contact them, ask them how they are, see if there's anything you can do to help them, and perhaps if it's you, maybe you'll seek help. You will look for the support that you need... if you don't already have that support. We are here for you. There's so many people out there, that are here for you. And I hope that you will gain some reassurance from listening to Stephie's story.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:36

Now I had a back-and-forth text conversation with Stephie, later the same evening. We recorded this last week and I'd like to share with you some of the text that I received from her, because I think you'll find this funny. So here was the text:

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:51

Oh dear, Zoe, did I say I was fifty-six? Ummmm... I can't remember, but if I did, it was wishful thinking, because I'm fifty-seven!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:00:02

So I replied, No, really? That's so funny. I'll make a note of it in the end reflections. Am I allowed to put it down to post-menopausal brain?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:00:14

And Stephie says, I did say I was fifty-six, then... haha, what am I like? She then says I was fifty-six when I hiked the South Downs Way, so it was definitely a forty-year anniversary. That bit was right. My birthday is in mid-August so I was fifty-six when I hiked the Cotswold Way too. Anything after that, I've obviously blanked out. She says, feel free to blame it on dyscalculia - no diagnosis but if she had a test, Stephie says she'd be 'off the scale'. Do you know it's so easy to get numbers muddled up, I do it all the time. And Stephie says she gets her son's birth date muddled up, I get numbers muddled up too. It's just one of those things, so I'm not even sure I'm gonna put that down to post-menopause, but I'm sure a lot of us can relate to this. So Stephie is fifty-seven years old, and she didn't realise it. That is SO funny. But oddly enough, I remember not being able to decide if I was forty-seven or forty-eight a few years back, so it's not just you Stephie. Don't worry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:22

Now I have had a HeadRightOut Moment sent through to me by Bea, and this was a real joy for me to read:

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:30

Ten Peak Challenge. I still remember my first mountain. We were on a girl's trip exploring Scotland when we decided it would be a good idea to hike Ben Nevis. I don't think I've ever complained so much. How could hiking up a hill be so hard? Once down, I vowed never to do it again.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:51

Luckily, I'd forgotten that promise when a few years later, I felt the need for a challenge. I don't like doing what everyone else does. So I decided to make my own. "I know, I'll summit the ten highest Munroes, in five days."

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:02:06

How hard could it be?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:02:09

I should add that my total mountaineering experience was still only Ben Nevis in trainers, but not one to be put off by it, I spent the next five months getting fit, buying the right gear, learning to read a map (ish), and generally falling in love with hiking.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:02:28

I thought I was ready. But I wasn't. I was not prepared for my boots to fall apart on day three. Or to find myself in the middle of a plateau in whiteout conditions, having completely forgotten how to understand my compass.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:02:43

I did not expect for it to rain so hard that my phone would stop working from water damage, or for the map to be whipped out of my hands by gale force winds leaving me stranded with just my memory to keep me going. I had not expected my mind to fight me every step of the way: "Stop, turn around!", "It's too hard!", "You aren't going to make it." This challenge showed me that we are capable of what we set our minds to. That physical challenges are not just about physical ability, but more so the ability to convince your brain that you DO have what it takes. That you can make it. It taught me that pain doesn't last forever, that it fades from our memories.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:03:26

I know I was in pain for much of it, but that's long forgotten. What I remember is the fear of having to cross the CMD arête, that's Carn Mor Dearg arête, despite being scared of heights. And the exhilarating feeling when I got to the other side, I remember sitting on my final peak, crying tears of joy, because I had made it despite everything that had gone wrong. I remember running as fast as I could towards the last gondola of the day to get me down from Aonach Mòr, having had to change my entire route. due to bad weather. I made it to the gondola just in time, only for it to stop halfway down the mountain. It gently swung back and forth for half an hour before setting off again. I thought I'd been forgotten about I knew that the Ten Peaks were going to be a physical challenge, but I never realised I would be putting my mental resilience to the test in that way. But it turns out we CAN achieve what we set our minds to.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:04:29

Indeed we can, Bea!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:04:32

Wow! Bea has sent me three photographs which I'm going to put in the show notes. And the last photo where she's looking up with this vast view that just falls away behind her.

She's above the clouds and you can see a loch in the distance. And she just has that look of somebody who's completely energy-spent but deliriously happy.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:04:58

Yes, there's one of the pictures, she's standing, I'm assuming it's at the summit, with her arms raised and her poles dangling from her wrists. And it looks like it pretty much is a whiteout. So thank you, Bea, for sending that in. I really appreciate all of these HeadRightOut Moments that people are sending in. It just allows us to share and celebrate even more how important it is for us to push ourselves - push ourselves beyond what we think we're capable of doing. And that HeadRightOut Moment has clearly made Bea a whole ton stronger than she thought she was.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:05:38

Now if you'd like to go, follow Bea she is on the socials as at B, B EA, underscore adventurous, underscore, that's Instagram. So @bea_adventurous_ and her blog is bea-adventurous.com. And that's actually bea hyphen adventurous.com. And she talks all about her travels and the things that she's been up to over the last few years. It's a really great blog.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:06:16

Okay, well I have a little request today, to ask if you lovely people who have been following and listening to the show, if you could possibly rate and review and follow the podcast to help with the visibility of the show. HeadRightOut exceeded five hundred downloads last week in nineteen countries, which I'm delighted about. I've been excitedly watching the map to see if we can get into the twentieth country. But I've just been amazed at how quickly this has grown in the three weeks since I launched. So thank you all for listening and supporting me and thank you for all of your lovely messages and your posts, your likes, your shares and even the emojis. If it's just a few emojis, I just know that you're there with me, and they're keeping me fuelled and believing that this IS the right path and that HeadRightOut IS needed. It is needed to encourage you to head out of your comfort zone and create an armour of resilience, that will help keep your head right and healthy in the outdoors.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:07:30

HeadRightOut Hugs to you all.
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The Triumph is in the Trying: from grief and menopause to the joy of rowing and SUPing - 006: Jo Moseley
13 oct 2021· HeadRightOut
Jo Moseley promotes positivity to a midlife audience as a writer, speaker, mid-life adventurer, and award-winning film-maker. Jo says that joy is simply knowing there is a blue sky above the clouds, which many women will relate to. After losing her sense of self, Jo realised that she desperately needed to do something to help herself and to rediscover that joy. She talks with Zoe, sharing honestly about her experience with the menopause and how the grief of miscarriages, divorce and the death of her mother washed over her like waves. Jo offers golden advice for dealing with the many pivotal stages in our lives as women, often through exercise and adventure. She talks about how she dealt with her own grief through movement using rowing, and 'not fighting the grief but just recognising the grief'. While heading right out on a huge challenge to stand-up paddleboard from coast to coast, 162 miles from Liverpool to Goole, Jo realises that the success is not in the completion of the journey, but that 'the triumph is in the trying'. Although she finds some days hard, she knows that the slog bit in the middle is where the magic happens. Jo is such an inspirational individual and exudes empathy, joy, care and a ‘Yes I Can’ attitude from every pore.
Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:24

Hello, and welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen, and I am here to help encourage you to step out of your comfort zone, doing things that scare you, building your resilience in the outdoors. We have conversations with resilient women, and particularly today, I am so excited to bring you an interview with Jo Moseley. Now although I recorded this episode with Jo back in August, I'm only just publishing it now. Jo promotes positivity to a midlife audience. Her Instagram account is @healthyhappy50, and obviously that speaks volumes. Jo says that joy is knowing there is a blue sky above the clouds. For some women I know that is really going to make sense to them.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:14

After losing her sense of self, Jo realised that she needed to do something to help herself, for herself, and to rediscover joy. Now I was so moved by Jo's story, I cried when I watched her film 'Brave Enough'. Her authenticity touched my very core. I loved her honesty about her experience with the menopause and how grief came to her in waves. While it was tough at times, it's perhaps a reassurance to other women that there is hope, and if they're feeling similar things, it means you're actually not going crazy. So enjoy the episode. It's a real treat, and a total honour for me to be able to call Jo a friend.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:05

Okay, well welcome everybody. I am really excited because we have a very special lady here today, to speak to us. I have Jo Moseley. I chatted with Joe a couple of times and I feel like I've built up such a relationship with her already, even though it's only over the telephone or over social media. But I am so excited to actually speak to her, almost face-to-face. So this is not quite in person but it as close in person as we've got yet. So Jo is a mum of two sons. They are aged 24 and 20, and they live on the edge of the Yorkshire Dales. Now she describes herself as a beach cleaner, joy encourager, and a midlife adventurer. In August 2019. Jo became the first woman to SUP, that's stand up paddleboard, coast-to-coast, 162 miles along the Leeds and Liverpool canal, picking up litter, fundraising, and raising awareness of the problems of single-use plastic.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:04

Now Jo loves writing and speaking about adventure and wellbeing. She also makes tiny films about the joy of the outdoors for our mental health, particularly after losing her mum and experiencing a difficult menopause. Her films 'Finding Joy' and 'Found at Sea' have both won awards. Jo's recently launched a podcast called The Joy of SUP - The Paddleboarding Sunshine Podcast and if you'd like to listen to the podcast, there will be a link in the show notes. A documentary film about her coast-to-coast adventure has also just been released to great reception and four, sell-out online screenings which I was at the second one I believe, and it's called 'Brave Enough - A Journey Home To Joy'. There will be a link to the trailer, also in the show notes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:52

In addition, Jo has a newsletter called 'Postcards of Joy - Stories To Lift The Soul', and there will be a link to the Postcards of Joy also in the show notes. You know, this is amazing because all the way through this, I just sense and feel that there's this element of joy and positivity, and thoughtfulness, care and kindness about not just Jo Moseley but about Jo's brand. And so yes, Joe, welcome to the podcast!

Jo Moseley 04:25

That's really kind. That's everything. Yeah, kindness, joy, encouragement. That's exactly what I try and promote really, and to a midlife audience in particular, although I get a lot of younger women as well saying, oh, watching you and the people that you share means it encourages me to know that it doesn't all end at thirty or forty or fifty.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 04:47

I think that's important as well, isn't it because our younger women are at some point going to become older women, and they need to have that message that there isn't an end to adventures, there isn't an end to the fun, there isn't an end and they've got lots to look forward to, and I think that's such a wonderful message that you impart to them.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:08

So you have got that great list of achievements all wrapped up in the word 'joy'. But where did it all start? Because I know there's quite a lot of experiences that you've been through this got you to this point.

Jo Moseley 05:20

Yeah. So I think the joy is really important to me, because joy for me is knowing that there is blue skies above the clouds. It's that sort of sunshine, whatever the weather is, and it's finding that internal sunshine and it comes really from a very personal experience, in that I lost that understanding that there was sunshine within. That joy was there, whatever I was particularly going through at the time. It wasn't like just a one moment, it was over a few years, I really lost my sense of self, my sense of joy. I lost what made me happy outside of my roles as a daughter, mother, sister, friend. Those roles always bring me joy, that's a given. But I'd lost my sense of joy outside those roles. It all kind of came to a bit of a crashing when I just burst into tears in the biscuit aisle and just said to my boys, I can't cope. I just can't do this anymore. That wasn't the first time I burst into tears, and also not the last, but it was just that one moment where I just hit that rock bottom, really. From then I started to learn how to find my joy again.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:31

Wow. So the meltdown in the biscuit aisle. Was that a whole culmination of things... life kind of getting on top of you? Was there something that triggered it?

Jo Moseley 06:42

I think that there was a lot of things. One, I was a middle-aged mum, I was 48 at the time and a single mum kind of juggling all the things doing what I could for my boys. Both mum and dad were going through chemotherapy. So dad has had breast, bowel and skin cancer, and mum was being treated for lymphoma. And then on top of that, but not realising that I was also going through the perimenopause. So I wasn't sleeping, I had night sweats, heart palpitations, incredible anxiety, tinnitus, itchy legs, aching bones and joints, cold flashes, you know the whole, I think there's thirty-eight different symptoms, and I could tick off almost all of them, except hot flashes, I don't get hot flashes. And so that was the background to these other things that were were pretty stressful at the time. That moment was just when it all came to a... it wasn't that it just came to a head. It was that moment, I guess, because I had cried in supermarkets. And I had been upset. But I think it was the moment which then turned me from thinking I've just got to keep going to, I probably need to do something about this. With that recognition that there was a problem. And the first time I vaguely asked somebody for help, or vaguely even mentioned to somebody that I wasn't really managing everything very well. So I think like many women of our generation, the sense that you just have to keep going was very, very, very much part of the way I looked at my life. And also, as a single mom, I had that terrible belief that I had to do everything a thousand times better, because I didn't want to be seen as as not coping. So it was one moment that just represented a lot of moments.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:34

So yes, Supermum comes into mind that isn't it you you just feel like you have to be Supermum, and you can't do it. You're going through all those things, but particularly then with your parents care as well, and the worry for them. Yeah, it's such a difficult time. So you mentioned to somebody that you needed help?

Jo Moseley 08:55

I just said a friend of mine because mum and dad were obviously really busy with their own appointments, I didn't want to worry them. So I just said to a friend, in that sort of joking way, "haha, I was crying in the supermarket" and just as a way to sort of gently let somebody else into that circle of trust, really. And she said "how much exercise do you do?", and I said, "well, you know, I spend all my life at the rugby pitch, but I'm not playing rugby". She said that she had an old indoor rowing machine, and did I want to borrow it, because exercise might help me sleep. And I hadn't had a really good night's sleep for years and it had nothing to do with the boys. You know, they were way past that stage. It was just worry and anxiety, and what I realised now all the sort of hormonal changes that I was going through. So she lent me this indoor rowing machine and it really changed things. So yes, it was just at that moment where you say, I don't think I'm handling this as well as I could be and I need some help. Which is just as well.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 09:58

And that exercise. Gosh, it's exercise and focus, isn't it? So you suddenly you have a new focus and something that takes you out of that place that has been causing your anxiety. So when you're on the rowing machine, did you immediately think, 'okay, I need to make this into a challenge for myself,' or were you just enveloped in that wonderful feeling of moving your body and being able to sleep? Where did it transition from being exercise that was helping your mental health into suddenly, 'okay, I need to make this a bigger thing that I'm then going to completely focus on and take it a step further'? Where did that transition happen?

Jo Moseley 10:40

At first, it was just so I could sleep, and within a couple of weeks, I was sleeping and so life just felt so much better. And I felt so much better. And then my mum... so that was May 2013... and then my mum died on the 21st of December 2013. But what I realised was that as we were doing all the stuff around her funeral, and all things like that,but I continued to row. It was never about getting fit or anything like that. My technique wasn't particularly good, I didn't do anything brilliantly. But it was just that rhythm of having a place to go, but also having a sense of... I sort of say it and we say this in the film... it was like the grief that I'd had through my life. I think a lot of us, you know, you don't get to your mid life without things happening. I had the grief of miscarriages, of my divorce, which I've never really talked about, of just feeling like I failed everybody. And these things, then along with the grief of obviously Mum, had just settled in my bones. You know, it was like in my bone marrow, so to speak. And the movement helped me move that, (sounds a bit woo-woo), but the movement helped me move that grief out of the core of my bones and somehow exhale it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:03

Oh you've started me off.

Jo Moseley 12:06

Sorry

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:07

No, please don't apologise. It's really powerful.

Jo Moseley 12:11

That's what it did it, and I've since read articles about Elizabeth Gilbert, who wrote 'Eat, Pray, Love' and 'Big Magic'. She talked about dancing at her, I don't know if it was her wife's or her partner, I don't they were officially married, but when her partner died when she died, they danced at her wake, or in the days afterwards. And I just thought, yeah, that's what they were doing. It wasn't dancing for joy. It was dancing and moving to get that grief out of their bodies or recognise that. Acknowledge there was grief and anxiety in their bodies. That's what the rowing did for me. And so after I had bereavement counselling, where the gentleman said to me, "how do you feel?" And I said to him," I feel like I'm on a rickety old boat in the middle of a lake. My old life is the shoreline, and I need to get back to that old life. I want that stability. I want to know what's, what. Everything has been turned into a new world. My mum who was so central to our lives is no longer here, and I need to find a way to get back to some stability". And he said to me, "what do you need to do?", and (metaphorically, obviously), I said, "I need to sit down, I need to stop waving from the, from the boat, and I need to row my way back to the shoreline". And obviously, I meant it metaphorically, it was just a way to get myself back to the shore and then establish a new life for the boys and myself, and my dad and my sister, etc.

Jo Moseley 13:37

Then three or four weeks later, I decided that I was going to row a million metres, a marathon for Macmillan, who had supported Mum and Dad and you know, have continued to support Dad. And so it went from really just an idea into a thing in about three weeks with absolutely zero planning. Yeah, that's kind of the way I do things.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 13:59

Sometimes it's the best way because then you have less time to overthink it.

Jo Moseley 14:05

Yeah, just sort of decided it was what I wanted to do. So it was just a process. I never set out to get fit. I never set out to... I just was allowing my body and my soul to teach me what I needed to do next. And then I rowed the million metres of marathon, and I did the marathon, and two half marathons. I did the marathon on the first anniversary of her death and five days before my fiftieth birthday.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:28

Wow. And so that's, you know, a way to mark your fiftieth birthday but also to acknowledge your Mum's death, acknowledge the grief, again, it's another transition through into the next stages.

Jo Moseley 14:41

Yeah, yeah, it is.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:44

Wow, well, actually something you said there has just... I don't want to catapult into the film just yet... but there's a sheet of paper here, which is all the notes that I wrote when I watched Brave Enough and I've highlighted a couple of things there that that really kind of jumped out at me. Something that you've just said about why why you started rowing, it wasn't to get fit, it was because you just needed to be doing something, just needing to move. I've highlighted something you said in the film, and it was about the need to move. And I've written 'love the need to move, not to compete, or to lose weight, but to bring joy'. Once again there, it's almost like your subconscious knew, that you needed to move in order to bring you if not joy, at least peace in the first instance. But then in bringing peace, that then just seemed to unfold into happiness.

Jo Moseley 15:47

Yeah, peace opened the door, to the joy. I think you do need that sense of peace, that's a really good way of putting it. I do think you need that sense of peace and to allow yourself in the grief, to feel joy again. And to say that the grief won't... you don't, I don't think you ever... it's not one or the other. It's not like you're grieving or there's joy. Both can exist every day, intertwined. It's like a dance between the two, and the way that you get through it is just to recognise. Recognise the joy, like every time, I go to spend time out on the sea, I can see the sea right now where we are. Every time I go, wherever I am on a paddleboard, at some point, I recognise that joy. I'll stop for seconds or minutes and say, "this is joy and I'm banking, that joy". Because grief is, as we all know, is going to come along at some point, and anxiety and worry. Having the two in your lives and knowing that there will be grief and not trying to deny that grief, but knowing that there's also joy, it's like they're just together. And, and allowing both to be together just means that you can kind of flow a little bit more in your life, because you're not fighting the grief, you're just recognising the grief, and recognising all those emotions. And yeah, the movement. You know, sometimes I wish I really was competitive, I really do wish that I would like I need to do this faster, I need to do this, or I need to compete. Because I think sometimes I would maybe push myself a bit harder, or I don't know what. It is always coming down to that joy, and my body's saying, 'this is good. This is gonna help you sleep tonight'. And my whole life rests on nicely.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:28

Perhaps if you were competitive though, it would dilute what you are in other ways, you know, so it might dilute that feeling of joy, and that inspiration that you pass on? I don't know. We are the way we are, for a reason aren't we? So yeah, not necessarily to fight that, really.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:45

So your boys, where were they in all of this? Did they understand what you were going through? Did they understand your need to do the things you needed to do? And how did they feel about all of that?

Jo Moseley 17:56

Good question. I think as I started to be more focused on particularly with the fundraising and the challenge, and they could see that it was giving me a real purpose, that was positive. Because I was just piecing together that I was going through the menopause, I couldn't give them any good reason why I would fly off the handle, or burst into tears or, you know, for so long, I was in quite a big, well it was Tescos. I said to the journalists that for about two years, I thought that I was getting the flu, you know, really regularly, because I was getting cold flashes and headaches. I was going to bed early thinking oh, I'm coming down with the flu. And then the next morning, I'd be fine. And what I realised was I was just having cold flashes, and it wasn't the flu. And so I wasn't able to say to the boys "look, I'm going through the menopause. These are the symptoms. I'm really sorry, when I kind of fly off the handle or burst into tears or, you know, forget the keys or forget to pick them up, but I'm not gonna forget to pick them up. But I might kind of screech in a bit late or whatever". And they were, you know, teenagers, they weren't babies, I guess I wish I'd been able to give them a book and say, "this is what I'm going through". But I didn't realise what I was going through until probably two, three years later, by which time, I'd found ways to handle it. And also, nowadays, it's so much talk about menopause. Even eight or nine years ago, it was really not talked about, and I just didn't have the tools to do that. Then as I felt happier and I started doing things, I think they just chilled. You know, people say to me, after I give quite a few talks, particularly to the WI, and people say to me at the end, the boys must be really proud of you and to be honest, they're just like, 'yeah, cool Mum, whatever'.

Jo Moseley 19:40

You know, they're not standing there going, "oh, she's amazing". And that's great. You know, they're doing their stuff. And it's just like, Yeah, come on with them. Okay, let's move on, you know.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:51

Yeah, and they're not teenagers anymore, are they? They're in their early twenties. But yes, they still have a way of thinking like that, but I'll bet you give them twenty years or when they have their own children, perhaps, if they have their own children. That's the point where they'll reflect back and think, gosh, did my mother actually do that? That's amazing.

Jo Moseley 20:10

Maybe. My sons, my eldest son's masters graduation, which has like been postponed, like for two years. I was taking the photos and his girlfriend, she's really sweet. She's like, "you really know how to take photos, because of your social media use," and I was like "yes, maybe something about what I do on Instagram is working". Yeah, and they had booked some accommodation. And I said, "well, did you book accommodation for me?" And he says, "well, we figured that you just know how to do stuff like that. So you could do it on your own", and I was like, "okay", but it was just like, okay, Mum just sorts it all out herself. Yeah, they're just chilled about it. And I guess when I say I'm gonna do something, they're like, Yeah, that's great. Okay.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 20:56

Has it inspired them to do anything, do you think? Have they started doing or showing signs of doing anything themselves that you thought perhaps they might not have done otherwise?

Jo Moseley 21:06

They both did Duke of Edinburgh at school, and and they both went on expeditions. My eldest son and his girlfriend want to go travelling when they can, obviously COVID slightly challenged that. My youngest son's got a thing he wants to do and he's got a long term project. And I was like, yeah, that's really cool. Like, where's my dad was a bit like, Really? I was like, Yeah, and I guess for me, it's very much helping them understand that at twenty and twenty-four, they don't necessarily have to have it all figured out. Yet they keep learning and keep exploring, and particularly after COVID. It's a generation whose lives will continue to be really heavily impacted, careers and stuff like that. So yeah, hopefully they've seen that you can just keep trying and they'll get there in the end.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:53

Yeah, I think long gone are the days where for our age group, when I was at school, it was like, you know, you leave school, you you find a job or career, and then you're not considered reliable or experienced unless you've had twenty years in the same job. That thankfully is now not the case, and the more experience you have is more down to the more things you've had to go at and can talk about. Yes. And not stagnating in one place.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:18

Okay, well, let's move on to your big one, which was your journey along the Leeds Liverpool canal. So where did the idea for that blossom, how did that all come about?

Jo Moseley 22:30

So I had my first lesson in September 2016. I'd injured my knee and had my first lesson in the lakes. I knew the minute I stood up on a paddleboard, that it was something special. Yeah, I just I didn't know how special it was going to be. But I just knew immediately that it was, and I decided about a couple of months afterwards that I was going to do the Leeds and Liverpool Canal. So we're almost halfway across the country like Liverpool to Leeds. And again, I'm not really sure why. So that was back in 2016. It just sounded like a really cool thing to do. But I made a mistake, and that is I told a few people at Christmas parties and things. The response was that they thought it sounded quite boring, quite logistically difficult, and also quite difficult for a woman of my age. And I was only fifty-one at the time, almost fifty-two. So I put the dream away and just allowed myself to keep building my, I didn't put it 'away-away', I kind of like put it at the back of my head like an idea, and just carried on paddleboarding. I went back to like body boarding and swimming in the sea and hiking and all those things I've really enjoyed as a child. Well I started to do those actually, after my rowing challenge, but you know, I continue to use all these things to build my confidence. And then in 2019, I realised, like, my youngest son will be going off to university and I would be empty nest, a single mum.

Jo Moseley 23:55

Also a number of my girlfriends, some obviously closer than others, had died in a very short space of time. And I just realised, if you had you know, the spark of a dream, you should try and give yourself the chance to achieve it. Whether you achieved it or not, that almost wasn't the point it was at least giving yourself the chance to try. So like the triumph in the trying. And so I just decided, right, again, it was just like, right, I'm just going to do it. And I'm not going to go just from Liverpool to Leeds, I'm going to go from Liverpool to Leeds, and then change onto the Aire and Calder Navigation and go to Goole. So as coast-to-coast as you really can do.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:36

Wow. I'm pleased that you did ignore what they said. Isn't it amazing how others words can have such a profound impact on your belief in yourself?

Jo Moseley 24:48

Yeah, they underestimate us hugely, yes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:54

Yeah. And I think now as I've got older, I think I've learned that in those people saying those things to you, generally, it's them not having the belief in themselves isn't it? They're saying, oh, gosh, that sounds boring, because that perhaps they're not interested in it or that you're probably too old to do that, because they wouldn't think that they would be capable of doing it. I just think they tend to project their fears, their beliefs, limiting beliefs, onto us.

Jo Moseley 25:21

And one of the great things as you get older is all those things, you just realise that time is really short, and you don't know what's around the corner. And, you know, just give yourself a chance, because what other people think really, isn't important, and they only think about what you're doing for a fleeting moment, and then move on to something else. What they think is really not important.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:44

Okay, good. I love that what you said about the triumph in trying so you said the triumph is in trying. You did try and you did succeed! Take us through some of those highlights of your trip. How long it took you? And some of the fears you faced, you know what was going on there?

Jo Moseley 26:02

So it took eleven days, and I guess the biggest fear was that because I shared it on all my social media and I had fundraising goals that I wanted to achieve, and awareness I wanted to achieve around plastic, single-use plastic consumption, that I guess the biggest fear is, you know, putting your head above the parapet and saying I'm going to do something and then not being able to do it. There was one night in particular, day four, I didn't sleep because I was up in the night thinking you know, what have you done? What if you can't do this? You've told all these people that you can, and maybe you can't. Then I just remember about four o'clock in the morning, finally going to sleep and just saying to myself, however long it takes as long as you're not injured as long as you get to the other side. So I kind of gave myself a bit of compassion and grace then and that just eased that worry.

Jo Moseley 26:54

So the weather wasn't massively kind to us. The first few days it rained, we had some rain throughout, we had a couple of really beautiful days. People on the canal didn't always believe I could do it. I got a few comments like, you know, you could put an engine on that. Or sometimes people would say, or men would say, how far have you come? And I would say, well, I've come from Liverpool. And at this point, I was day five, six. You know, I'd already done about eighty miles. And I said I've done about eighty miles and I'm on my way to the other coast, and he was like, 'yeah, in your dreams', like literally 'in your dreams'. And I was like well, I have! Somebody? I know somebody laughed at me saying why didn't I go through the locks? And I was a bit like, why would I go through a lot, you know, on a paddleboard, I can just pull it out. So I had a bit of that. Mainly ninety-eight percent of the time, people were really encouraging. And it was, you know, only two years ago, but nobody, not many people had seen paddleboards, so they were asking me what it was like. Most people were really encouraging really kind they would give me their coppers from their pockets, to help with fundraising. But there were times when people did doubt me, most days were really, really different. So there's different scenery, there's different trees, or in an urban area, and then a rural area. And there were just a couple of afternoons, particularly one afternoon where it was a slog, and it was a bit like, just keep going, just keep going, just keep going. And sometimes boredom is a factor. You know, it's not all adrenaline, and it's not all rah rah.

Jo Moseley 28:22

Then the end was pretty amazing. I was joined by an amazing filmmaker, Frit Tam of Passionfruit Pictures joined me. And Frit had arranged for these lovely people to be there at the end, and that was amazing. I won't give the game away, but there was some serendipity at the end. So yeah, it was like life. It was up and down, hard work, cruising, surprises, kindness, doubt, all of it. All of the things it was everything.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:50

Wow. And I know Frit, and he's been here and he's a fabulous filmmaker and individual, and I'm sure you've both inspired one another there. And you know partway through the film, I think you were going through a tunnel and I think you were facing a huge moment where you have I'm assuming it was fear. But can you tell us about that tunnel moment and how you got yourself through it?

Jo Moseley 29:16

Yeah, so there were two tunnels. One was only 511 ... I always getting muddled if it's in metres or yards, but it's not very long. And then there was the other tunnel which is that Foulridge Tunnel which is about just under a mile long. And I was really scared. I'm not great in the dark. Nobody can join you in either tunnel. There's no towpath. And Foulridge, it's got like these three shafts of light that you just kind of have to focus on and it's on a traffic light system, so you know that no other boats are going to come towards you. But you have, I think half an hour to get through and I didn't because I know time my paddleboarding I don't know how fast I am. I was like I hope I can do it. And so it was really scary.

Jo Moseley 30:00

Something it's really interesting that you bring it up. But I think something happened in that tunnel that just made me think I'm a bit braver than I thought. And I came out and I felt quite triumphant. And you know, when you're excited, and you're babbling away, and I'm babbling away with some people, and this person said, "all you did was paddle through a tunnel", and this person hadn't paddled through a tunnel, let me say. I just turned around, and I said, "don't rain on my parade", you know, and I've never in my life said that. And I've never said it before or since. But I had done something that I felt was really scary. And I just overcome that fear. And I've gone ahead and done it. And I also was a bit worried that there was going to be some swans at the other side, that they're very, very territorial. And so I had that extra little worry, because, you know, when we're in swan territory, it's their territory, you know, it perhaps, and respect that territory. And, and I just said, "don't rain on my parade, let me let me be excited that I did this". And so yeah, that really, really made a difference, that tunnel. From then on, I just thought this is going to happen! We're going to do this by hook or by crook, we're going to get to the other side.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 31:09

You know, after doing this challenge, how has it changed the way you now approach things? Because it sounds to me very much like, you know, you've come from this place of almost darkness, you know, anxiety, and worry, and just kind of worrying about other people and not yourself. You've come through all these challenges, and you've discovered a new you. So how has this changed your approach to things you do?

Jo Moseley 31:37

I think it's given me a freedom to say I'm going to try and a freedom to give myself some grace and compassion that I'm going to do my very best. I think it's made me worry less about what other people think as long as I'm doing my best, that almost is really good enough. It's allowed me to feel that I'm more creative. So we did the film. Obviously, that was a collaboration. I launched the podcast, I say yes to things. And I made my own little film 'Found At Sea'. Yeah, I think it just just made me feel braver to give things a go, and just do my best. And then there's also those funny little things like, you know, sometimes when you're in the thick of a project, the excitement of the project is at one end, but you can't see the excitement of finishing the project, you're in the thick of it. And you know, the bit that sort of Brene Brown calls that bit the messy bit in the middle, and there's no rah rah, and there's no triumph. And there's nobody saying, Yeah, you're in the middle, it's that happens at the beginning, when people send you off on a project. Yeah. And that happens at the end, when they welcome you home. The bit in the middle, it's so cliche, but that's where the magic happens. That's the bit where you have to test your resolve and your self discipline and your motivation just to keep on going. And there were days when it felt like that, as I said, there were afternoons where it just was like paddle after paddle, you know. I'm just going through a lot of weed, so I was making very slow time. But you know, just literally. I think I bring that to my project, say, like doing the podcast, where there's so much as you know, that you're learning and piecing it together. And it's really hard and you don't know what you're doing or writing the book or whatever. And I just say to yourself, you're just in the middle of that. There's nothing unusual about this, you're in the middle of an expedition here, and the bit will happen at the end. But right now, it's just stroke by stroke, edit by edit, write by write, you know, sentence by sentence, that's all you have to do is put in the work. And you've got to stop questioning the work and just do the work.

Jo Moseley 33:42

You've got to get in the flow and, and you just got to do the work. And I think that it just I knew that I knew that already. Obviously I taught my children that you know, growing up, but sometimes an expedition. It's a potted life, isn't it? It's lots of life in a short period of time, and there's lessons that you can learn. And so sometimes I'll just go back to that. You're just in the middle, and you just keep having to do the work. Just chip away at the work. Yeah. And then you look back and and I felt that very much with the podcast, you know, launching the podcast, it was very much like, oh, gosh, everybody else was doing their Christmas stuff and kind of looking forward to that. And I was just there editing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:24

Slogging away. Right?

Jo Moseley 34:26

Yeah, I'm just doing the work.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:28

Yes. Yeah. It's actually a positive message.

Jo Moseley 34:32

Yeah, I hope so. I saw a really good thing on Instagram yesterday about and it was like a mountain or an iceberg. And it was like a line across the summit and it's like the work you see and then the work you don't see. And most people, all we see are people's achievements at work. And I launched a podcast, I wrote a book, I made a film, I was the first person to walk this trail, or you know, I've given a talk here, but nobody sees the hours that go into creating that. Like you're doing with your podcast. Hours and hours and hours. Yeah, it's huge. It is a mountain. I think that's why you have an affinity with people that are doing creative things, because you know what they're going through, you know that what they show whether it's a picture or whatever. It didn't just happen overnight. And yeah, I think the expedition challenge helped me with that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 35:23

Yeah. Wow. And so tell me about your book, Jo, because that's another challenge. Another episode. I mean, it feels like it was a natural progression. But have you had to battle with it at all?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 35:39

What's it, you know? What's it going to?

Jo Moseley 35:41

Yeah, I have, I have. So it's got a deadline of... quite soon! It's about beautiful places to paddleboard in the UK. And the biggest thing I think, coming out of COVID, I got second and third lockdowns, I was on my own first lockdown, my son was at home. Second, and third, I was on my own. My dad was my bubble. But he lived a long way away. So we kind of didn't really pursue the bubbleness. The third lockdown, I was busy launching the film with Frit and we were just like, crazy busy. And then I realised, you know, when can I get out and start going to these places. I didn't want to go in lockdown people saying, well, it's work. And it was, but it didn't feel right. And then I think what happened was, I lost some of my confidence meeting people. You know, Zoom was great, I was giving my WI talks. I was doing corporate talks. But actually face-to-face meeting people, I think I had lost some of my confidence. So that took a little bit of time. So I kind of didn't get out on the starting block out of the starting blocks as quick as I would like to. And a lot of it is choosing places from research. And then hoping that when you get that they're as beautiful as you hope they'll be, and as interesting as you hope they'll be. Thankfully, every one of them has been. So that's good that I can trust my judgment, and worrying about the weather and worrying about people getting COVID, and people you're going to meet, then having to go into self isolation and everywhere.

Jo Moseley 37:06

You know, the weather hasn't been amazing. Sometimes you're just hoping that you're in the right place at the right time, weather wise, and accommodations, and as an extra layer. But it comes back down to the joy that when you're out paddleboarding, and you see seals or dolphins, or this extraordinary beautiful place that you want to then get home and write about that place, and share that place with somebody else who then might choose to go there. That is just a huge honour. You know that bit is like, wow. And that all the doubts come in, and all the worries. But that bit is being able to say to people, this place is extraordinary. And you may not have this, right, because I'm trying to have places that aren't on everybody's radar, you know, honey pots and all that sort of thing, and just sort of spreading paddleboarders around, partly just to then say, Gosh, I didn't realise something like that. I didn't realise a canal in the middle of London to be beautiful. I didn't realise that there was this beautiful sculpture in Wales, I could paddle around, or I didn't know I could go to a lighthouse in the northeast, you know, those are just extraordinary things. And being able to share that with people is just such an honour. So yeah. And there's all the worries about whether I'm doing it right.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:20

Aww, and when is that due to be published?

Jo Moseley 38:23

So it'll be spring next year, so I've got a few more weeks to get it in. It's like, pedal metal, all that stuff. Yeah, pedal, pedal, but they spend way too much time on on weather apps, you know, fourteen day forecasts ahead of me, and because I'm booked in and I booked places, and I'm meeting people, and I don't have that. I can't say I'll come next month because you know, I've got to do it when I'm gonna do it. So I'm looking at weather forecasts and checking them all the time and thinking it looks like it's getting a little better in two weeks time in that place where I'm going to be. So yeah, it'll be nice for a little bit once it's submitted, not to have to check the weather forecast every day and two hundred miles away. It's lovely.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:05

Oh what an amazing project that sounds like, to be able to go off around the country and explore these new areas. And yeah, I mean, our canal. I know I'm biased, but the canal that we're living on is absolutely stunning. I don't know if you've ever been on the Mon and Brec, but it just it just contours around the side of the hills. It's high up, it's not low down, it's high. And so so you're above everything all the time and just the Brecon Beacons poke their way through the trees every so often. And yeah, it just is quite stunning. That's all I can say. And if you're planning to come up, you must come out and say hello. Come up? No come down!

Jo Moseley 39:43

Definitely be a book on Wales and a book on Scotland. You know, there's so many beautiful places. This is just a taster, and hopefully a taster that people will think oh, I'll think a little differently about because I've written about the Leeds and Liverpool Canal, I hope people might think Oh, where are the canals near me.

39:59

Two minutes from my doctor's surgery where I go, with a paddleboard and it was only you know, in the last three or four years, I realised the beauty. Hopefully, other people would then think, Oh, where's our local canal? Or where's our local lake instaad of maybe what there's been: I've got to go to Devon, or I've got to go to the beach. Actually, there's places on their doorstep that they could paddle. So that sounds a lovely place. And I'll put that on my list.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:23

Oh, we're coming towards the end of time now, Jo. But a couple more things that I wanted to ask you. This is something that I ask everybody - do you have a HeadRightOut Moment that you could describe for us? It's a moment where you know, deep down, that you have headed well out of your comfort zone, there's something that you never believed that you could possibly achieve. It might be your paddle across the coast-to-coast. But it could be something else, it could be something smaller. But is there something that you could perhaps talk about?

Jo Moseley 40:55

That's interesting, and I think and I haven't really talked about this before, but I think it was the day after I hadn't slept the night before, and I got up and I literally was on two to three hours of sleep. Frit was going back to London to work. So I was then going to be on my own paddling all day. I had a friend Sharon, who was coming who's part of the wonderful wild women community up in the lakes, and Sharon was going to meet me. But apart from that, I was going to be paddling all day, no filming, and then a friend of my son was going to collect me. So it could be quite a low day, other than Sharon joining me. I think the HeadRightOut Moment was thinking, I'm really tired. And I'm really doubtful, but I've given myself that grace, that as long as I just keep paddling, I will get to the end. And somehow there was a level that I'd stepped up in my soul about the trip. But I just needed to keep paddling. And I needed to keep believing. But I also needed to be compassionate to myself, that if it took twelve days or thirteen days or fourteen days, I would just ask work for more time off work. And you know, I just would ring them and say I'm really sorry, I'm really slow. But can I have a bit more annual leave, and they would have been fine with that. Doing that would have given me most of the next weekend, so I think that was probably a HeadRightOut Moment, knowing that I didn't think I could do it, but I still was going to do it anyway. And I was going to try anyway and give myself all the grace that I could to just keep trying and allow all the doubts to come with me but not allow the doubts to overcome me. And I've never told anyone else that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 42:37

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. And that leads me then to ask if you were going to give other midlife women, any tips, any advice about how they could not necessarily go and do stand up paddleboarding, although that obviously is a great thing to be doing. But how would you suggest they should start and approach doing something that they feel scared about, or they feel anxious about? What advice would you offer them?

Jo Moseley 43:03

I think it comes back to the triumph is in the trying, allowing yourself to be a beginner and allowing yourself to say, I don't know how to do this, but I'm willing to learn and be open to it. I think yeah, allowing yourself to be a beginner allowing yourself to be vulnerable enough to fail because anything new is going to allow you is going to require that you fail at some point in some tiny way. But know that by actually, say you're paddleboarding, falling and standing up again is part of it. I would say only do it if it really brings you joy. And if it doesn't try something else. You know, life is too short to keep doing stuff just because everybody else loves it. Just allow yourself to try things and then pursue the things that bring you joy. And also surround yourself with people either online or in a community or in your podcast. You know, because I think podcasts are like having friends really in your ears who believe in you who will inspire you to keep trying. Yeah, I was driving back from Cullercoats on Tuesday, and I was listening to a really old Oprah Winfrey podcast and it was 10.30 at night. It really struck home to me, just something she said. And I think if you just keep bringing those good podcasts and good knowledge into your brain, it seeps through and it helps remove all the negative and the cynicism that is understandably in the world at the moment.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 44:28

Interesting you should say that actually, because I found that when I was going through some of the most tricky times in my life in the last five years, I would say and that was listening to podcasts, they got me through some really difficult times and now I treat them in the same way that I would treat YouTube for example, if I'm wanting to learn about something, I will find a podcast on it and I will keep that in my ears for a week or two. You know if I'm writing a book it's all about writing, if I'm starting a podcast, it's all about podcasts and so on. So naturally, if you're going off on an adventure then I think listening to inspiring stories from people has to go a long way to feeding that need and giving us some some good advice.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 45:09

Well talking of good advice you have given us absolutely masses, Jo. And it's been wonderful. I just feel you've been so honest, so so honest with us and so genuinely authentic and showing us the vulnerability that you have gone through and I just I really really appreciate that and I know others will too. I know the listeners will certainly appreciate your story and how you've told it to us and I just I wish you so much luck with your book and all of those future things that you're going to head off and do. In fact, can I just ask what is next, apart from the book which is obviously a really big thing for you? Is there anything that's coming in 2022?

Jo Moseley 45:53

I think I would like to do more coastal paddleboarding, but I would like to do something where I include other people and you know have them come along. So there's a lot of safety stuff. I need to understand a lot about the coast that and tides and stuff like that, that I'll need to really understand and maybe put a team together. But yeah some more coastal paddleboarding and always always relating it to you know plastic consumption, litter picking, so yeah, not round the country. I'm not going to go around the whole country. The Yorkshire coastline which is special to me. So you know, just in case people think I'm going to go around the country, I'm not. I don't have that as a goal but just including other people, including other people. I've always done a lot of stuff on my own and I've realised that other people do want to be part of something and if we can make that happen and I can then celebrate what they're doing. Less about me and more about them, that's what I would like to do.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 46:50

And so the motto of your podcast that I think that leads beautifully into what you live by, could you tell us what it is?

Jo Moseley 46:58

So the motto is 'we rise by lifting others', and it was something that I was playing with as an idea as I was launching the podcast and one of my very first interviewers she said it and I'd like that's it she's already said it that means it's a sign that that's what it should be so yeah 'we rise by lifting others' is the motto of the podcast and that's what I aim to do and that's what I try and do with mine and you clearly are doing with your so thank you for inviting me It has been a huge honour.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 47:26

Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. So Jo, thank you can you please just tell us where people can find you on social media and where they can go and listen to The Joy of SUP?

Jo Moseley 47:38

Yeah, so The Joy of SUP Podcast is on Instagram as @thejoyofsuppodcast_ and also if you just look on Apple and Spotify and Stitcher, it's there. There's links from my Instagram and I'm also @healthyhappy50 out on Instagram and Twitter. My website is www.jomoseley.com and there's links there to everything as well.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:01

Brilliant thank you

Jo Moseley 48:02

And you can sign up there for Postcards of Joy and find out about where to watch the films.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:07

Yeah, everybody you need to do that. I get the Postcards of Joy through, and it's not one of th,ose emails that come through and you think 'oh gosh not another one I've got to read' it really is feel good, inspiring. Short, little ditties that are just going to lift you and yeah, it's fabulous. Jo Moseley, thank you so much. It's been a wonderful hour talking to you and I hope we get to meet sometime in person. That will definitely be a day of joy for me.

Jo Moseley 48:33

Thank you Take care.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:43

Well, I feel like I spend my life saying 'wow', to my guests... and 'wow', after I've spoken to my guests, but then that is what this is like. Jo's words just were so powerful. She had so much advice to give, and I hope you're going to take something away from that, because I've got loads of nuggets there lots of useful pieces of information, and useful advice for dealing with different stages in my life and I hope Yeah, I hope you have too. Things like her talking about 'from the grief of miscarriages, divorce and menopause to the joy of rowing and SUPing and about how sensitively she dealt with her grief through movement and through counselling, and 'not fighting the grief but just recognising the grief'. These are all things that yes, we can definitely relate to, but we don't always put these things into practice. I'm just thinking back to times in my life now where gosh, I could have done with hearing those words. I know that personally when I went through a period of loss after a long-term relationship ended, I turned to running and I had never run before... at least not through choice. I found that movement helped me to heal and allowed myself to feel and to process and to return to that joy, again. That joy that Jo talks about. I'm sure it's the movement that helps release those endorphins, and I'm pretty certain there is research and scientific evidence that backs that up.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:20

I love Jo's saying, 'the triumph is in the trying'. It's not about the outcome. It's not about succeeding in a challenge or succeeding in an activity. It's not about getting something, right, whatever that right might be. I've been telling students this for years, as a teacher, but the triumph is actually in the trying where you are just having a go, you're giving yourself that permission to have a go. And how 'the bit in the middle is where the magic happens'. It's so worth remembering that if you have an adventure, or project or you're studying, putting in the work and slogging through it over and over and over when you feel like you just can't go any further, remember - the bit in the middle is where the magic happens. Wow. There she goes again... wow.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:12

Now I'm going to move on. So we've got the SheExtreme Film Festival coming up on the 23rd of October. It's in Bristol, it's at the Arnolfini, and it is a free event. There's going to be some amazing films from female filmmakers there. I can't wait. I'm actually attending this. I can't wait to go and see the films, I can't wait to get the opportunity to go and meet with other women, other like-minded women that I can talk adventure and challenges and podcast and all sorts of other wonderful things about with them. And I'm also excited because Jo is going to be there. So I am actually going to get the opportunity finally to Meet Jo face-to-face. So I feel like I know her really, really well. If she's giving hugs, I am going to give her the biggest hug ever. Yeah, so that's gonna be really, really lovely to meet with Jo.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 52:16

I need to apologise for the feedback issues in the WiFi noise. Again. This was recorded back in August, back on the boat, and the WiFi clearly was in and out. And it took me masses and masses of editing time to get it to the point where it was as listenable as it is now. So I know it wasn't perfect, and I don't expect it to be completely perfect. But there was a lot of feedback today, which I hadn't expected. So yes, stick with me. And yes, hopefully this is something that I can work on and develop and find out how I can sort this issue. If it means changing my service provider to get a different provider for my mobile WiFi router, then that's what I'll do.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 53:07

Okay, so this is the section where we talk about HeadRightOut Moments. Jo's tunnel experience was an amazing HeadRightOut Moment, in addition to her experience after two to three hours sleep and believing that somehow, somehow she COULD keep paddling regardless of whatever her thoughts were. I think she said she was 'going to allow the doubts to come with her' but what was it, 'not allow the doubts to overcome her' and again, more wise words but now today I am going to share a HeadRightOut Moment of my own with you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 53:39

It was up in North Wales back in the summer, in August. Mike and I went up to visit our friends, Steve and Liz, and Liz is a marine biologist. She's got a lot of friends who are in the business and know the waters around where they live very, very well. And she had a tip-off whilst we were up there to say that the bioluminescence was back at Penmon Point, on Anglesey and would they like to go. There was going to be a group, a big group of people there on the beach, they were going to have a barbecue and a wonderful gathering and wait for it to get dark. And then we could go out and we could paddleboard and swim and see the bioluminescence. Now for those of you who have never heard of this before, my very basic knowledge of it is that it's plankton that stores energy in the form of light and it gives off the light at night when it gets dark. So it stores the light through the day and then it gives it off again at night and it glows and it glows this beautiful blue-green. And naturally I wanted to see this phenomenon for myself. So Mike and I went along too and I took my cozzy and a towel and we took some food and chairs and yes, we set up a little camp. A little mini camp on on the pebbles at Penmon Point.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:04

Now this is going to sound very odd, but I have never swum in the sea. I have paddled. I have fallen in when I've been paddleboarding in Poole Harbour, and it's very, very shallow in the stretches of Poole Harbour I'm thinking of. But I've never actually gone for a proper swim in the sea, certainly not at night either. I'm not a strong swimmer, but I can manage swimming. And so the sun set and it was beautiful as the sun set over Penmon Point and it glowed across the lighthouse. And then it reached a point by about eleven o'clock or half eleven, and we could see the sea starting to glow, and people were throwing pebbles into the water to watch the splashes come up in that green-blue glow that is characteristic of the bioluminescence. Then Liz invited me to go out on her paddleboard with her. Now having only been on a paddleboard three times at that point, I wasn't confident enough to go out on the water on my own, but definitely not in the dark. But I knelt on the front of her paddleboard and she took me around the bay, and it was the most incredible experience. As the paddle lifted up out of the water, I watched what I can only describe as, it was like fireworks of water that would shoot across in front of me, and they would land on the board by my knees. These droplets, these greeny-blue droplets would just bounce and roll around and then spread and then dissipate. And it really is, I almost can't find the words to describe it, and I haven't written any of this down. This is just all from my memory and from my experience. I have no photographs of this because I was too frightened to take my camera out onto the water in case I fell in. But it was just so beautiful and so serene, and nothing like I've ever experienced out on the water before.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 57:07

So then I climbed off, thanked Liz and went back to the area where we had a fire lit just to warm up again. And I kept saying to Mike, I'd love to go out for a swim. But Mike doesn't swim. So he couldn't come out with me. And there were lots of people that were going out, but they were going out with other people. And I just kept looking and thinking I just need to get out there. But I knew it wasn't right to go out on my own. And then this lovely woman came up to me with a big smile, and she said, "do you want to go out for a swim?" And I said, "yes, I do". I said, "do you" she went "yes", she said, "but I'm too nervous to go on my own". And I said "me too". She said, "well come on, let's go out together". And so we did. And as I got into the water, and I took the first strokes, the temperature of the water took my breath away. It wasn't freezing, but just because I'm not used to being in sea water, I guess. But it took my breath away in the first few moments. And then I took my first strokes and with every stroke that I made, I did my best to keep my eyes open so that I could see these blue-green splashes, firing around in front of me. If I didn't know better, if I didn't know it was bioluminescence, I would say that I was going to get out of the water and I would be covered in blue-green paint because that's what it felt like. You're swimming in the water. It feels like you're being covered in the colour. It's just so serene, and such a beautiful experience.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 58:37

So thank you, Liz for taking me out on the paddleboard. Thank you, Steve, and thank you to Mhairi who is now I believe up in Scotland, maybe Glasgow, as she was moving back there the following week from North Wales.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 58:52

So this has been a long reflection today, but thank you so much for listening in. Thank you for staying with me. Next week we've got Stephie Boon coming on, she's going to be talking to me about her deep love of hiking and managing dark periods in her life, and the early onset of menopause, when her son was just FIVE years old!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:14

Don't forget to hit follow and share the podcast with one of your friends. Let them know how much you get from it. And let's just share, share, share and get the HeadRightOut Podcast growing. HeadRightOut Hugs to you all. Take care and do something that scares you every day.
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Never Too Old For Adventure: Cruel Tanzania Amoeba, Beating Shyness to Antarctica & Over 500 Days of Walking at 73 yrs 005: Cherry Hamrick
6 oct 2021· HeadRightOut
Cherry Hamrick exudes positivity and resilience. Her mindset is that of adventure. Every corner of her life, whether work, play, family or vacation is treated as an adventure. At sixty-five, she faced her shyness to travel alone to Antarctica. At seventy-two she was seriously ill in Tanzania, with the sickness known as the 'amoeba'. Yet all she wanted was to climb Kilimanjaro and appreciate running in Africa. At seventy-three, she has now recorded a streak of over 500 consecutive days of walking. A splits extraordinaire, avid runner, kayaker, dancer and traveller with a zest for life, challenges and adventures. You will be reaching for a map and guidebook after listening to Cherry!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:14

Hello, and welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. If you're here for the very first time, welcome! I hope you're here to stay. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen, and I am your host, and I'm here to help introduce the idea of doing something that scares you. To push yourself out of your comfort zone a little bit. Today, in order to take us on this resilience journey a little bit more, I am talking to a very special lady indeed. Her name is Cherry, and she's going to be taking us through her journey of living an adventurous life.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:48

Now, I have to just say here, a little bit of a thing that has been going on with my internet connection, I think it's mine, I'm not sure. But please, please make some allowances for the quality here. Our connection was unstable, and we had been completely disconnected at the start of our chat. Once we were reconnected, it was it was a bit better, and although there was some occasional latency there in the audio, we decided to run with it. So I will have edited out a lot of the long pauses that you get when you have a delay in a call. But hopefully it doesn't completely detract from the conversation, because it was a wonderful conversation that we had.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:26

Cherry shares some awesome advice with us about keeping a positive mindset through tough times, which we all get and how best to deal with those problems and how best to deal with a crisis when it hits, as well. She's a woman of much wisdom and an absolute joy to talk to. So without further ado, let's get into the interview.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:56

Okay, hello, everybody and welcome to the HeadRightOut Podcast. And today I have a very special guest and she is tuning in with us all the way from the United States. Her name is Cherry Hamrick, and I have a wonderful introduction to offer you, before we get right into that interview with Cherry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:15

Cherry Hamrick is based in the United States and was a ballet teacher for twenty years before making a career change into becoming a librarian, for twenty-three years. At fifty. She studied for a master's degree, which enabled her to become a library director, at which point she had the joy and satisfaction of being a major part of building a big new library for her community. She loved the construction part of it so much that she says if she could have had a third career, it would have been to become a construction manager. (I absolutely love that already!)

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:51

Cherry has run on all of the seven continents. She has been in a boat on six of the seven continents. And in addition to working for that master's degree at fifty, she also ran her first marathon. She wore the mantle of race director for twelve years at the library, putting on the Run for Reading and the Jingle Bell 5K for women. She is the vice chair of the Ingham County Parks Board and she's a founding board member of the Friends of Lansing Regional Trails. Although she didn't start marathons until she was fifty, Cherry has now run seven marathons; Bay Shore, Detroit twice (that's running once and race walking it once), Big Sur, China, Chicago and New York. She describes herself as an avid runner, (I'd say!), walker kayaker and has done yoga since she was twelve years old.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:50

Cherry has travelled to Antarctica, despite being shy and not knowing anyone and has undertaken a daily lockdown walk with a friend and never stopped. Current total of those walks is now at over two thousand miles and over five hundred days of walking. She even managed to wear a hole in the bottom of her cast boot that she was wearing for a stress fracture. Cherry's biggest challenge was in 2020. On her final continent, the plan was to Safari for five days, do a partial climb of Mount Kilimanjaro for three days, run a half marathon and then fly home (to rest I assume). That was supposed to be for a total of two weeks with travel time included. Let's say that expedition didn't go quite as planned, despite two years of organizing the trip. And I believe there was another cast boot that became an essential part of Cherry's attire due to another stress fracture this time in her foot and a hellish illness contracted in Tanzania that gradually sucked the life from her and I I believe that also forced her to be hospitalized on her return to the US. I sense that this woman is a determined soul. She is also seventy-three years old. Now she went to set foot on Kili. So let's find out what happened.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:18

Cherry, welcome to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My goodness me, what a tale. What a whole wealth of tales you have there. What hurdles were you faced with when travelling to Africa, because that sounds like it was your biggest challenge, to date at least and that it threw all sorts of things at you what was going on there?

Cherry Hamrick 05:39

It certainly did. The best part of the whole adventure was through the whole thing, all three of us that were on the trip had such a good attitude, which I appreciated from the girls. Not everybody rides in an ambulance in Tanzania, and not everybody experiences coming down the mountain the same way you went up. They were so, so wonderful about just embracing what was happening. I mean, that's part of travel and life, things change quickly, and you have to figure it out.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:13

So what caused you to be in the ambulance?

Cherry Hamrick 06:16

I had somehow, I have a theory, but I'm not sure how, come in contact with the water there. I thought I was really careful. But I think maybe during the tent shower, I was looking up to pull the chain maybe and got some water in my mouth. I don't know. But I got an amoeba is what the doctor there called it and just had (not real pleasant) constant diarrhea, and just no appetite. I tried to cover it up. I didn't want anybody to worry. And I took some anti-diarrhea medicine, which helped the first few days so I could keep going on safari. When it was time to climb, the guide said "how are you feeling" and I said, "well, I've had a little diarrhea." So to be fair, he didn't understand the severity of my problem. But starting up Mount Kilimanjaro, really weak, very dehydrated and wearing an aircast that came up, but I'm pretty determined. And I just wanted to... I was there to climb that mountain.

Cherry Hamrick 07:20

So our guide was wonderful, he helped me, hauled me up over things. My foot was really getting moved around in the cast because the ground is so different. So my foot hurt a lot and when we got to that first camp, because I read a lot about it, I was so excited to actually be in a camp on Mount Kilimanjaro. That was such a thrill. I just knew I didn't have the strength or the ability. The next day was twice as long and I just knew I couldn't manage. So we had to come back down the next morning and there was an ambulance waiting for me, and they took me to a clinic to get some medicine and that helped. I don't know how much you want me to go on about this?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:12

Oh no, you're not going on at all. I'm absolutely taking it all in. I know a little bit of a story but just hearing you recount that story is just so absorbing. So no, please do carry on.

Cherry Hamrick 08:23

Okay. So we were able to get into our hotel easily which was nice because it was early. Everybody was so accommodating, and so helpful, and so caring. It was really wonderful. It was a really good experience, but at that point I was so dehydrated I didn't have any saliva, so I couldn't eat because it would make me gag or throw up. So the people at the hotel kept trying to get me to eat and they would bring food to my room and I just couldn't. The good part was the girls, my daughter and another woman her age went ahead and had adventures on their own, which was wonderful. I was so pleased. I really wanted them to keep climbing but they chose not to... and I was pretty much in bed.

Cherry Hamrick 09:12

Fortunately it was a beautiful hotel and we had little patios, so I could see outside but I just couldn't do anything. But because it was my seventh continent and I was determined to run, I had a special insert for my shoe that was metal, that I had made before I went to Tanzania, hoping that would help if I can go without the boot with my stress fracture. So I put that on and I ran around the hotel, a little bit not a lot, but I was in Tanzania. I could see Mount Kilimanjaro, literally from my room, and I just felt like I had to do that and then it was stopped; the medicines stopped my symptoms enough to be okay flying home. I had to have a wheelchair because I was so weak I couldn't, I really couldn't stand up or walk very far. So when I got home, my husband took me immediately to the emergency room and I was hospitalized. My potassium was 2.3, which I found out later, it's quite dangerously low, and as severely dehydrated, obviously, and I lost about seven pounds at that point. So I was in the hospital for three days, and got a lot of potassium infusions, and a lot of hydration and went home and took about a week of not doing a whole lot, but I'm pretty healthy, and I recover quickly from things. So mostly, it was what everybody does in Tanzania. The good and the bad.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:49

It's amazing, isn't it, how if you are fit and healthy, how quickly you can recover from something? But that sounded particularly harrowing and you've gone through a lot there. You've got your boot, you know, the air cast, on. So you've got pain from your stress fracture, you've got this whole ordeal that you're dealing with the diarrhea and then back at the hotel, the sickness, or the gagging. You must have felt absolutely rotten, and the diarrhea must have just been absolutely awful to deal with. It's bad enough when you're at home, but when you're overseas, I think it just exacerbates it even more. Oh my goodness. So you've come through that and do you tell that story now, with a sense of fondness, or a sense of adventure? You know, what feeling do you find yourself recounting that adventure, that trip? How does it make you feel inside now that you can see it from the other side?

Cherry Hamrick 11:47

That's a very good question. I haven't thought about it that clearly. I tend to see everything as an adventure. I appreciated how much everybody just thought, Okay, this is what we have to deal with. I can't do anything, the girls went ahead and did adventures on their own for a few days. I didn't know till later how really dangerously sick I was, which helped us to not know at the time. And I think I don't remember maybe a lot of it. But this is an odd thing. The only thing that I could eat, my daughter had bought a little can of Pringles potato chips. That was literally the only thing I can eat. And I don't know why. Maybe the salt? I don't know. But so, you know, I had kind of an okay time in the hotel room. I knew I was missing things, which I felt badly about. But I don't know. I'm glad I survived. I don't think I was in mortal danger. But it was an adventure. I see it as an adventure, riding down the mountain in an ambulance. And the change in plans; how everybody adapted well; the caring of the people I was with, the guide and the doctor and everybody, so I guess I think it was just more of an adventure. Maybe that's painting with a good brush to make it seem happier.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 13:19

But then perhaps that's your mindset as well. You know, the way you think about things. I mean, I had a similar situation two years ago where I went on my very first skiing trip. I was with the school that I was working at, and I had an accident on the mountain. And yeah, basically I had to be ferried off the mountain. It wasn't by ambulance, but it was by ski rescue. And I just see that as the most exciting thing that happened to me that day. I was in massive pain, I'd torn my ACL and MCL in my knee and partially dislocated my kneecap. But you know I'm there with my phone, saying "please, if I'm going to go down this mountain on ski rescue, you HAVE to take a photograph of me. I'm not going home without that! So, yeah, it was all part of the adventure.

Cherry Hamrick 14:05

Yes, it is. I think if you travel enough, you learn you have to adapt quickly to situations. And that's funny that you said that, because I did take a picture of my ambulance driver, because he was very dapper had a cool hat, and things you think of you know, at the moment and to get back down the mountain, literally thinking again about how I felt about it. It's hard to recreate that now talking about it at camp and realising I just could not do anymore. The most crushing thing to me, was to realise that I thought somebody will just come and get me. But you can't. You cannot get vehicles up that high. I think we're at about 10,000 feet at that point. To realise that I had to turn around and go back down the way I came up, just at the time, that was just soul crushing, I could not imagine or face that, but I didn't have a choice. So the next morning, we did it and everybody helped, and we survived. Then we got down to where we could get in a vehicle, and then it was another hour into the town. But looking back, I thought, why was that such a big deal, but at the time, that was just soul crushing to think I had to walk all the way back down.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 15:32

I've got to cut in there you know, because I'm really interested to know, what did you draw on to get you back down the mountain? I mean, we can say it's just resilience. But it's never JUST resilience is it? It comes from a whole toolkit of being able to deal with hard stuff that is thrown at you. So was there something in particular that you drew on? Do you have a mantra that you recite over and over in your head to talk yourself out of all of the negative thoughts? What do you do to get yourself through stuff like that?

Cherry Hamrick 16:01

That's another good question that I haven't thought too deeply about, I guess. I'm just very determined. If I say, I'm gonna do something, I do it. And I just knew I was determined. I knew I could do it. I mean, I knew in the back of my mind, yes, I could walk all the way back down with a lot of help. But I never doubted that I could do it, I guess. I was just devastated at the time. And hoping I had the energy to do that. But I think I always knew I could. I don't know if that's a good explanation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 16:35

No, that's fine. I mean, sometimes it is just something deep down inside of us. We just know don't we? And it's that decision as well. You just knew that there was absolutely no way you were going to be able to go any further. So there had to come a point where you had to face - although you were determined to get up further - you had to face that you couldn't. So that took a lot of determination to understand that and to deal with that, as you said it was crushing. But what a story.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:03

So you came back, and you're in hospital for a few days.

Cherry Hamrick 17:07

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:07

And so you're in recovery. Thank goodness, you're in recovery. And then I believe lockdown happened after that, not long after and partly into your recovery at home. Can you tell us a little bit about what happened at the beginning of lockdown?

Cherry Hamrick 17:24

Yes, yes, we got home, March 3, I believe. And then I was pretty much just at home for a week. And then I was feeling better. And I have friends that I walk with, and we walked. And then we got together for lunch, because they wanted to hear about my trip. And at the time, this friend of mine, I knew who also works in the library, got an email from the library saying don't come to work tomorrow, because we're all locked down - it's happening. And so he just looked at me and said, "so do you want to walk again tomorrow? I don't have to work." And I said, "Sure!" So, the way you know, things just start kind of funny. We thought, oh, it'll be a week or two, or something and it just went on and on. Then when he did go back to work, it was more challenging, because he worked till seven, some nights. And it was really interesting, and I think again, we both like the challenge of that. The challenge of how to figure out where and when the two of us could meet every single day.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 18:40

That's that is quite a mammoth undertaking when somebody is working and yeah, you have to negotiate and manage that time. I know if I've been doing a challenge, the longest I've continued to challenge is a hundred days. So to continue it for how many days exactly, is it now?

Cherry Hamrick 18:58

514.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:00

Wow, that is just incredible. That is absolutely incredible. So you know, you're closing in on the second year, almost. You're closer to your second year than you are to the end of the first year. And do you see any sign of that stopping, or do you plan to continue or what are the plans with that? Do you feel like you can't stop now? Are you just enjoying it?

Cherry Hamrick 19:25

Well, kind of all of those things. I had done a running streak for a year, just to see if I could do it. But doing the streak with another person is a whole other level of complication. You can't just at eleven o'clock at night say "Oh shoot, I forgot", and jump on the treadmill and run for a mile. It's just another level. And honestly, especially during pandemic, it was wonderful to have a reason to go outside and to meet somebody else and to walk and talk, and we laughed a lot. People ask what we talked about all that time, and my example is because we walked a lot of neighbourhoods, we spent a lot of time one day talking about when they started attaching garages to houses. You know, we're fine trying to figure that out.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 20:20

It's amazing when you're walking and talking with somebody, what does come up. I've walked with many people, just random people that I've met along the way. And yeah, after you've kind of got over the first few minutes of life story, you do end up getting into some really interesting discussions. I'm interested to know, have there been any disagreements with the two of you in that time?

Cherry Hamrick 20:40

That's a very good question, too. No, we just we laugh and we have the same sense of humour. In the US in this particular time, we have the same political views. I think if we didn't, it might not have lasted this long. But we talk a lot of library stuff. I don't know, we just get along very well. I've known him for a long, long time through the library and he's just a wonderful person. And I don't know, now it's become a real quest for us. But we're still having fun and we're still trying to work it out every day.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:18

Well, that's fabulous. And what better way of getting out into the outdoors and keeping fit. If you can't run, if you can't climb a mountain, just go out for a walk. Is there a distance, a particular distance that you'd like to do? Have you got an optimum distance that you do every day?

Cherry Hamrick 21:35

We agreed early on, once we realized this was gonna be a thing, and the usual standard for a streak is a minimum of a mile. So we joke that our rulebook says we have to do a mile. Some days, that's all one of us has time for. One day when it was pouring rain, we did our mile under a picnic shelter roof, just going around and around and around. In the winter here, it gets very cold, very snowy, very icy. So sometimes we would have to adapt. If it was just to icy, we would slip and slide through our mile and call it good. But then other days when it's nice, and we have the time we've done ten miles, I think twelve miles might have been our longest walk so far. So we really bounce around. Yeah, in a given week, we'll do a mile five miles, eight miles just depends.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:29

Yeah, that's good. You're changing it around, and it's whatever suits your life on that particular day in the moment, isn't it? Wow. So I'm interested to know, Cherry, you've obviously done quite a lot there. You're experienced in ballet and yoga as well, in the past. It doesn't seem to faze you about embarking on new things, and you've changed up what you've done in your life, career-wise, and then you went on to study your masters. So how has your life been changed do you think, by your challenges you've chosen to do?

Cherry Hamrick 23:00

Yes, I like challenges I always have. I like thinking of something and then thinking, Oh, how do I do that? How do I get there in the case of travelling. That's one thing I oddly I liked about being a Race Director was on Race Day, something's going to happen, but you don't know what it is. And I really like that challenge of figuring things out when they happen, that you can't plan for. I don't know, it's like that challenge. And circling back to my two careers, I also always felt that you should change careers every 20 years, just to start fresh, learn something new, be with new people. I just always I just I like change. And I like challenges. And I should give a nice shout out to my husband who does not care about travelling, but totally supports and helps in any way he can for me to have my adventures without going with me, but he really enjoys the adventures that I have.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:05

Brilliant big up Mr. Cherry. That's fabulous. So do you feel then, that being faced with the unknown in those challenges, or in those new lifestyles or new careers, that you've chosen, is it the unknown that you thrive on?

Cherry Hamrick 24:19

I think possibly, and I think knowing that whatever it is, I can figure it out. I can figure out how to deal with it. I can figure out what I need, or where to go, or who to ask. I like figuring things out - how to, like on Kilimanjaro "now what's gonna happen?" I just find that intriguing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:38

Yeah. Oh wow. You have such a strong history of resilience and I love that because I've been trying to build my resilience for a long time and I'm certainly getting there I'm not there yet. I think we are always learning is as far as that goes. I think like you say you just knowing that you know what to do in particular situations, or you can be flexible. You can work around a problem and think around a problem to actually find the solution to that, knowing that you've got that toolkit in there somewhere to be able to handle that is great. And that's what resilience is all about. And this podcast really is all about is just trying to offer other women that knowledge that they have that capability to, but if we've got to find it, we've got to tap into it, haven't we, and it's not until we start having experiences and we don't have to climb Kilimanjaro or jump out of an aeroplane to have those strengthening experiences. Sometimes it's just doing those things that push us out of our comfort zone and into the unknown, like changing your job or going for a new career.

Cherry Hamrick 25:40

Yes, and I think, to me, the biggest thing is just to not panic. I've had a lot of situations where I could have panicked, but if you don't panic and just say, "Okay, I have to figure this out. Who do I talk to? Where do I go?", if you don't panic and just stop and think, 'I can figure this out'. I think that makes a big difference.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 26:05

That's actually really good advice, and I think what I've discovered about myself is that I tend not to panic, I'm very good at not panicking. Actually, I think I'm more of a worrier. So beforehand, before I go off to do something, I will worry a lot about it, perhaps unnecessarily, but when I'm actually in the moment, I'm able to tune in to what I need to get done without the panic pants going on.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 26:29

So you were doing the splits in a photograph I saw of you recently. That is something I have never, ever been able to do, Cherry. I just, I looked on that with with absolute awe and envy and wow, in every aspect. Is that because you have kept up with your yoga? Is it your years of ballet? How have you managed to keep yourself in a body that is still able to do the splits and it's seemingly so easily?

Cherry Hamrick 27:02

There's a funny story about that. When I was dancing, and I was twenty, my teacher who actually studied at the Royal Academy in London, she was English. She was wonderful and she was turning forty. She was doing a routine and it included the splits, and we were all amazed that she was that old and could do the splits. I mean, we just kept saying, "She's forty. How can she still do the splits? (And said from a twenty-year old perspective). I thought, 'okay, I'm gonna do that, I'm going to be able to do the splits all my life'. And that just started a challenge for me. And it's just a matter of doing them every day. If you do them every day, you can just keep doing them.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 27:47

So it just becomes part of your practice.

Cherry Hamrick 27:49

Yes.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 27:50

And do you practice yoga as well, daily?

Cherry Hamrick 27:52

Not daily, I'm not as good as I should be. But I've just always loved yoga, for the stretching and the flexibility, especially as I get older. I'm not quite as flexible in my back as I used to be. I can still do a backbend, kind of, but even just trying it is good for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:12

Yeah...

Cherry Hamrick 28:13

And just stretching just feels good. And you know, years of being a dancer, just stretching, I just always want to stretch.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:21

I gonna I'm just going to change tack slightly here, and I'd like to ask you about the menopause, if that's okay? Just in terms of, did you find that you had any difficulties with either confidence, or body movement, things that you used to be able to do, you've suddenly found you have to work harder at, when you started going through menopause? Because I know there's going to be a lot of people listening to this, that are perhaps coming up to that time and would love to know your story.

Cherry Hamrick 28:48

For me, I think again, you know, I just always had stretched I'd always had moved. I didn't become a runner until I was in my thirties, just because I had small children and life. But I did find I had to work a little harder at stretching and be more consistent and more dedicated to stretching and moving, because what could happen. It goes away quicker the older you get. So that was just always part of my life to try to counteract that. I guess.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 29:22

That's great. It was just lovely to see that you're still able to do the splits and you've obviously come through that menopause time really positively. So do you have any advice that you can offer to midlife women, Cherry? You know, I don't know any any nuggets pertaining to resilience or adventure or anything that you just carry around with you that you live by. What would you say?

Cherry Hamrick 29:48

One thing I've thought of recently for totally different reasons is I realised I don't live my life in fear. I don't think what's the worst thing that could happen that's going to happen, so I'm not gonna it. I always think I can do stuff. I always think why not try this? Why not do this? I think I just don't want to live in fear. And I don't.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 30:10

That's good. You've actually managed to train your brain to do as you tell it. There's a lot of people that do struggle still with that. Yeah, you've got that down to an art, then that's fabulous. And just a couple of other little things. Actually, this one isn't quite so little. But if we've not talked about it already, is there a HeadRightOut Moment that you can think of something where you really felt you stepped out of your comfort zone? Something that you thought you were totally not capable of doing? But you did you succeeded?

Cherry Hamrick 30:45

Yes, I, I had always been fascinated by Antarctica. I read all the books. Robert Falcon, Scott was my hero, and especially the British-like 'daring-do' of going to Antarctica in crazy conditions, and Shackleton. I just always wanted to go to Antarctica, but it was very expensive - still is, and nobody wanted to go with me. And I just thought, I just have to go. I'm kind of a shy person. And I thought, 'how can I get on a boat with a hundred people that I don't know, and go to Antarctica? And I just thought, 'I just really want to do this'. It was quite a life changing moment to realise I could do that. I didn't have to have somebody with me that I knew. And I emailed, you have to go with the group to get there... and he said, don't worry about it. Because most people will be by themselves on the trip, because it's expensive, and not that many people want to go there. So once I heard that, I thought, well, that makes sense. And I just met amazing people. I was like the least travelled of all of these people. I had a fabulous roommate. And it was such a wonderful experience. I just really had to push myself to do it, and I realised I can go places by myself. So that was a big one for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:18

That's your HeadRightOut Moment. Wow. And can I ask how old were you when you went to Antartica, Cherry?

Cherry Hamrick 32:24

It was eight years ago, so I'll have to do the math. So I'd been sixty-five/sixty-four maybe,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:29

Okay.

Cherry Hamrick 32:30

Sixty-four.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:32

Yeah, for a lot of people, that would totally be off their radar, even though it might have been their dream. Some people would say now at that age, I'm not going to go there. But that gives us a lot of hope, yeah. Congratulations for having such an amazing HeadRightOut Moment. Well, we're coming to the end. Is there anything that I've not mentioned that you would like to talk about?

Cherry Hamrick 32:56

Not that I can think of, but I do appreciate people like you so much, that I wish you had been around when I was younger. That you know, encourage women to do things, and do things on their own and try things. I think wome... I hope the next generation is better about that. But I think women need to be more independent and just try stuff.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:18

Yeah, and it's trying stuff knowing that they don't necessarily have to depend on somebody else to do it with, like just as you've said, you went to Antarctica on your own. You CAN do these things on your own. You are autonomous, you are a person in your own right. You are not a person that's attached to somebody else, even if you're married or in a relationship you... yeah... you can do these things on your own. Well, thank you very much for saying that, Cherry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:41

Well, this has been an absolute pleasure. And I was so excited when you said that "Yes. I'll come on to the podcast", and I've absolutely been jumping up and down for this particular conversation that we've had. So is there anywhere on social media where people can follow you?

Cherry Hamrick 33:57

I'm on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. I will say I don't post a lot. But I personally don't seem to post a lot. I do when I go on trips. But other than that it's kind of pictures of me paddling down the river.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:12

Oh, because you kayak as well, don't you?

Cherry Hamrick 34:18

Yes, yes, yes. Oh, I love kayaking. Lucky enough to live on the river though. A treat for me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:25

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Would you like to tell us what those social media handles are, on Instagram and Twitter please, so people can go and follow you.

Cherry Hamrick 34:33

Sure it's... one is Cherry. Just My name, Cherry Hamrick on Facebook. And on Instagram, it's CHAMRICK. So nothing fancy.

https://www.instagram.com/chamrick/

https://www.facebook.com/cherry.hamrick.9

https://twitter.com/ch3727

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:46

Brilliant. Okay, and I'll pop that in the show notes as well so that people can link to it there. So I just like to end with one thing here that and this was something that you had written in your original bio that you sent to me. I thought this would be something wonderful to finish with. Because this is all about inspiring women to head out of their comfort zone, do something that scares them every day, or do something that they didn't think that they were originally capable of.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 35:12

Once you had been to Antarctica, apparently you were giving a presentation. And you had said in this presentation about how you didn't think you were able to go because you're a little bit shy, but now that you've made lifelong friends. And a woman came to you, after the presentation, and said, how you had inspired her to start travelling again, because she thought she was done travelling when her husband died. I think just knowing that you have inspired somebody there and hopefully, when people listen to this, a whole HEAP of other women just makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Cherry Hamrick 35:53

Yes, that was that was wonderful to me. I just couldn't have asked for anything better. The other comment I got about Antarctica was thank you for going so I don't have to.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:05

Oh really, so they were living through your adventures, they were living vicariously.

Cherry Hamrick 36:13

Yes, a lot of people do NOT want to go to Antarctica.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:18

Well, Cherry, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing all your wisdom, all your wonderful tales. And I'm sure we'll catch up with you again at some point. But thank you very much.

Cherry Hamrick 36:29

Thank you so much. This has been fun reliving all of that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:32

Brilliant. Thank you.

Cherry Hamrick 36:34

Yes, thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:44

Well, that was such amazing advice from Cherry. With her daily walking since us recording back a few weeks ago, she's now at 567 days of walking every single day consecutively, no gaps, of at least one mile a day. But I think it's averaging out at about four miles a day. They have covered over two thousand miles. It's just incredible! She has such a strong history of resilience. And I still can't believe that she is actually seventy-three years old. In fact, I have an apology to make to Cherry, because I know in last week's episode, when I was introducing the next week's episode, I said she was seventy-four! So Cherry, I am SO sorry for that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:35

But I so want to bottle her energy and positivity to save for a 'down day'. You know, we all need that sometimes, or even better, just listen to this episode again, to get that fix of 'Cherry determination', and 'Cherry resolve' and 'Cherry adventure mindset'. It's just amazing. As she said, everything she does IS an adventure and what a sensible way to treat every single day of your life.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:05

I actually asked Cherry after the recording, what's next for her? And her reply was that she'd loved to go and see the narwhals but she realises it's such an expense, and there's only one or two places you can go for that experience. I think that's Greenland or Canada. So she says that might have to be a long-term goal. Instead, it might be a trip to Iceland, and I can really see that she is just drawn to cold places. And no wonder her hero was Scott. But I just love Cherry's message about not wanting to live in fear and how her can-do attitude just must rub off on those that she talks to and all those people who surround her. But yes, a true inspiration.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:51

Now I had a great message today. Today's 3rd October 2021, and I had a message this morning from Donna, who is a Kiwi, living in Australia, and we've had a few communications in the past. She was one of my wonderful people that stayed up late, or got up really early to watch my Royal Geographical Society Microlecture, back in March, which was live.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:18

Donna has sent in this week's HeadRightOut Moment for us to share and celebrate. So I am going to read it pretty much as Donna wrote it to me because you really need to hear this:

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:31

A real HeadRightOut Moment. My then eight-year old had been doing judo and when she got her yellow belt, she was allowed to go in the inter-club competitions, and I did the typical parent line of encouraging her to have a go, try your best and, just have fun. Given I was at the club with her three times a week and my inner ten-year old was itching to have a go at jumping on crash mats etc. I started. I got my yellow belt and the first thing my daughter said was that now I could compete at next weekend's inter-club competition, with a huge, expectant look on her face. If I had said no, I would have been the biggest hypocrite out there, but it certainly wasn't my intention to compete. And to top it off, I was up against a young lass who was seriously good. A brown belt. And two weeks later, she won a gold at the national champs! It was a serious adrenaline rush, and it started something.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 40:29

Now I'm just going to interrupt here there is an amazing photograph of Donna in mid-action, and I'm going to post this in the show notes. She goes on to say my last competition and my first international one was in 2014, the Bali Open. I managed to get a silver medal and was probably the oldest competitor at aged forty-five. She says judo gave me the confidence to go do the Camino. So in 2015 I walked the VDLP, which is the Via de la Plata. I'm not doing Judo at the moment, although her message reads, my old coach harasses me every other week. She's got distracted by walking, and she needs to get fitter, she says so she doesn't get injured. And every time I think I might go, it's a damn lockdown. I do love the sport though, and I binged on the Olympic coverage.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:25

So do go to the show notes and have a look at the amazing photograph of Donna doing one of her moves. It's definitely mid-action. If you want to go have a look at some of the other things that Donna posts, her Instagram handle is Missy Wombat. M.I.S.S.Y Wombat. Missy Wombat. I will pop that link in the show notes as well, so you can all go and have a look and she posts some beautiful nature photographs and wildlife photographs from around Australia. I think she lives up in the Northern Territory. So yes, do go and check out Donna, Missy Wombat.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 42:04

Okay, so next week we have the incredible Jo Moseley who funnily enough Sarah Williams mentioned in Episode Three, and I was quietly smiling to myself because I knew that Jo was going to be coming on because I'd already done the interview. Now Jo is a midlife joy encourager, she's a litter picker, and a long distance stand up paddleboarder. So we've already had Helen Jenkins, who is a stand up paddleboard instructor. Jo - yes, she fits into the bracket of long distance stand up paddleboarding. And she also hosts her own podcast too. It's so full of positivity. So you really do need to come back next week and listen to that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 42:51

Now other little bits and bobs of news that I need to share with you today. So I was in the Simply supplement magazine by Woman&Home just recently, and unfortunately, although I knew it was coming out at the beginning of September, when I went to find it, I couldn't find it anywhere. So I assumed I wasn't in it. I messaged the journalist. She's only just got back to me to say it was in and it's been and gone. So it went I think 23rd of September was when it disappeared. I have asked to see if I can get a couple of print copies off a back issue or something. It's still exciting. I have got a PDF which I can share. So I'll make those available on my socials and on the website as well for you to have a look at.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 43:40

Also I've got to say a HUGE thank you for all the follows and all the downloads. Last week HeadRightOut made it to the number 100 spot ranking in the charts in the UK and it even made number 56. It's out of 250. It made number 56 in Spain. So everybody is helping me to grow the show. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing this. And you can actually do more still by sharing the podcast or talking to friends telling a friend about the pod. Tell them what you enjoy and yes, share it with others. Let's get HeadRightOut to blast into view and make such an impact for the benefit of all the midlife women out there.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 44:25

Okay, right. Well, that's all I have to say, which was actually quite a long reflection this week. But please come back next week for more encouragement to head right out of your comfort zone and into the outdoors. Keeping your head right and healthy. See you there.

Cherry Hamrick's social links again here:

https://www.instagram.com/chamrick/

https://www.facebook.com/cherry.hamrick.9

https://twitter.com/ch3727
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HeadRightOut Into SUP School: Mindfulness and Jelly Legs on a Paddleboard With Blorenge SUP 004: Helen Jenkins
29 sep 2021· HeadRightOut
Helen Jenkins, co-founder of the newest stand up paddleboarding school on the Mon and Brec Canal delivers their very first session to Zoe and her husband. Sharing the business start-up considerations for Blorenge SUP while still working full-time, Helen also offers the importance of a paddleboard session with an instructor and what students can expect to learn under her tuition. Concentration and mindfulness are key to not falling in!

Helen is keen to encourage everyone to try stand up paddleboarding and talks with enthusiasm about what it means to her personally and how she first found herself ‘having a go’, when surfing didn’t cut it for her. She believes it’s an activity that helps to keep you young and will take every opportunity to throw her board onto the canal and go for a blast!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:22

Well hello there lovely people, welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen and we're here with episode four today - I can't believe we're on to the fourth episode already. It's just this is such a whirlwind and it's so exciting. What's even more exciting today is that we are going to be talking to Helen Jenkins. Now this was a recording that was done, quite a few months ago now. June, if I remember right. This is a slightly different recording because it's shorter and there are some different sound qualities to it, partly because we're cruising on the boat. Partly because we have boats going by, and because we have people out on the towpath. This is a face-to-face recording, not done over Zoom or over the phone, so please excuse the recording. It's still a great episode with Helen.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:09

So Helen is a paddleboard instructor. She and Damon, her husband have just recently launched their new paddleboard school in Monmouthshire. It's near Abergavenny and it is the only paddleboard school on the Mon and Brec Canal. So I'm not going to say anything else we're just gonna launch straight into the conversation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:35

So if you can hear background noise it's because we are cruising the boat down to Gilwern. We are going down to meet Helen and Damon who are the founders of Blorenge SUP, and this is very exciting for both us and them because this week is their launch week, for their new stand up paddleboard school. This week, it was also Mike's birthday, so I have got him a paddleboard lesson for his birthday and we happen to be their first customers. So this is a very exciting time around.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:15

Hello Heron! The heron has just sprung out from underneath the bushes. That was amazing. He was about a metre away from me. Such graceful creatures. Right, we're cruising the boat down and we're just about to go under Bridge 101, so we're not too far away. We've got to get to Bridge 104. I'm looking forward to having a chat to Helen after we've had our session. I think we're going to be doing a little bit of mini celebrations for Blorenge SUP, and for us as well. Because this will be my first interview for HeadRightOut... and it sounds like my kettle's boiling. Wouldn't you know it?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:10

Okay, well hello everybody and welcome. Today is the 21st... no, it's not, it's not even the 21st. It is the 19th I'm ahead of myself. It's the 19th of June 2021, and today is an exciting day, because I have certainly headed out of my comfort zone today. I have been for a paddleboarding lesson with my husband. It was a birthday present, and I bought him the birthday present, because a friend of mine that I have made whilst I've been living up here on the canal has just set up her own paddleboarding business and it's Blorenge SUP, founded by the wonderful Helen and Damon Jenkins. Hello Helen!

Helen Jenkins 03:53

Hello.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:54

How are you, Helen? How are you feeling?

Helen Jenkins 03:56

I'm good, thank you, yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:57

I'm feeling very bubbly after that fizz. My knees are wobbling for different reasons. I'm really really grateful to you for just taking the time to come and talk to us like this, because you've been working hard. You've spent some time working with Mike and I, on the canal. I hope we haven't been too difficult, but yes we've we've been up and down paddleboarding on the Mon and Brec Canal, and it's been absolutely amazing. And we even broke open a bottle of fizz. I say we, YOU broke open a bottle of fizz to celebrate, because this is not just OUR first time, or Mike's first time, (it's my third), but tell me this is quite an historical moment for you, isn't it?

Helen Jenkins 04:43

It is today was our very first ever Blorenge SUP paddleboard session, and I was so pleased when I saw that Zoe had booked it for her and Mike. It absolutely made my day. So it has been... I was absolutely thrilled to do it and the first time nerves evaporated. But as soon as I saw you guys, because I just thought this is gonna be such a lovely start to this, you know this whole job. This whole thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:11

Of course it's a journey isn't it? It's an adventure. And I have to say I was I mean I was excited anyway when you told me that you were starting this business, Blorenge SUP. And so is it Blorenge SUP, not Blorenge S. U. P. is that what you just said?

Helen Jenkins 05:23

Yes, either or. It stands for stand up paddleboards.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:27

Yes, yeah. Okay, so yeah, I was really excited when you said you were starting Blorenge SUP, and I had in the back of my head that I wanted to get a lesson booked in for Mike for his birthday, which happened to be last week. So when you messaged me to say it's happening, we've had the go-ahead from the Canal and River Trust, it was like, 'wow, this is this is definitely going to work!' And then I spotted, just purely by coincidence, because I'd liked Blorenge SUP on Facebook, I spotted the post that came up to say 'we're taking bookings'. I was in there like a rocketI! It was pure instinct. And just yeah, it just kicked in, and I booked. I didn't know we were the first. I'm just delighted that we were. It worked out really well. So, Helen... I mean, where did this all start?

Helen Jenkins 06:17

Well, Damon actually introduced me to the sport. He's taken up surfing and sort of in early middle age really, and I never really got on with surfing. I think I was probably too late to the party there. But then when we started moving on, he said come and try stand up paddleboarding. I absolutely loved that. That was totally my game. I've always loved the water, in an y case. That sort of swimming in and I like the hand plane. I don't know if anybody's aware of that. But definitely paddleboarding, you can go as fast as you want, or if you just want to get on the water and give yourself a chance to relax at the end of the day. That's what I really like, is just getting my board out after work, chucking it on the canal and just being in the moment.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 07:09

I know it feels like a real buzzword at the moment, but it's such mindfulness, isn't it? Just being able to go out there and paddle, and like you say go at your own speed and take in the sights, and I might not be at that place just yet. But I did experience it today I had a few wobbles and I had a few shakes and I know you spotted my knees shakes, particularly when I was getting up from my kneeling position up to my standing position.

Helen Jenkins 07:36

Yeah...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 07:36

I haven't done that for a couple of years. I have been paddleboarding twice before but once was seven years ago, in Poole Harbour, and the other one was in Shropshire with my good friend Arry. And, you know, I had the same shakes then, but I think it's going to take me a while to get back into that. But I definitely, definitely felt that almost feeling of meditation. And you'd asked me one question, (and I have to apologise for this right now), but I know I realise now what you're doing, but you asked me one question. I think it's something about HeadRightOut, and that was it.... I was blah-de-blah-de-blah-de-blah. And I suddenly went from the knee wobbles went and I just clicked into this autopilot, and was just appreciating where I was. And it took my mind off of being scared. So that was really clever, thank you! So I'm gonna stop blah-de-blah-de-blah, now. So how long did it take for you to set up?

Helen Jenkins 08:35

I think it's probably taken about at least eighteen months to get to this point where we're actually able to offer the first session. We've talked about it and so we started doing the training to become instructors with the Water Skills Academy. So we had to do the Water Safety Course. We've done the Foundation Instructors Course. And in between that we've had to do the three-day First Aid and really start getting all the paperwork together, and get the permissions of the Canal and River Trust in order to operate. We live in a beautiful area. So everything that we want to do is really about complementing the area. We don't want to cause harm. We want to just share it with other people who might have an interest in paddleboarding but be too nervous to outlay all the money to buy one, and they've not really had the confidence to take it on the canal, or have a bad experience and then it just gathers dust.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 09:32

Yeah and I guess if somebody has already bought a paddleboard and is maybe in that situation, this is a good opportunity for them to come out and improve that experience and get used you know build that confidence and get used to being on their board. You know I'm now thinking well I've just spent two hours out on the canal with you and I'm thinking when am I going to get to do it again! So you know it might be that we end up having to buy a paddleboard and we'll find a place or tuck it either in the van or on the boat somewhere.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:01

So I have to apologise for any sound that happens whilst we're chatting. We've just had a boat go by, and that's the wonderful nature of living on the canal, you've always got water traffic that's going up and down. So, Helen, you've said about some of the things that you had to do in order to set the business up with the training and certification. And I know you were really nervous in the last few weeks about whether you're going to get permission, potentially, from the Canal and River Trust, to set up your business and operate from here. But what other things did you find that actually stood in your way? And these could be things that are physical barriers, like you know, red tape, or it potentially could be mental barriers, you know, that you've put up yourself? If you're anything like me, you know, I put those up all the time.

Helen Jenkins 10:52

Actually the paperwork is just a process that you go through and it's just about being patient and making sure that you do exactly what's asked that they're there for a reason. I think the biggest hurdle for me has been making sure that we can, we're managing our time because we both work full time. So I think my models in the past few weeks have actually be more about having to put time aside in order to dedicate to completing the paperwork. And that certainly ramped up in the past couple of weeks and now we've got the sessions and we're in the lovely position of actually being able to say when we can operate the sessions and that's the fun bit actually it's lovely to meet people. Whenever we go out on the water, you always see something and the wildlife around here is absolutely divine. You always see something different every time you go out and it's a really lovely calm setting. You don't get waves it's very calm. It's quite shallow. It's warm, so it's a really nice, fairly safe place to operate. For beginners to try it's really nice.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 11:58

Yeah, there's no tides are there. I think that the most you'll get is a slight wash from a boat, when a boat goes by - but that's not a wave exactly!

Helen Jenkins 12:06

No, that's right. It's a great beginners place.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:09

Yeah ripples, we saw a few ripples from the wind as it started to increase today but it wasn't anything that we needed to be concerned about today, although I'm sure there probably are times where you do need to be mindful of that.

Helen Jenkins 12:22

Yes, there are certain weather conditions where you don't want to be operating on the water and certainly high winds is one of them, so definitely. There's some really good apps that you can download such as 'Windy' and if the wind conditions are too high then you simply don't go on. It's got to be a fun enjoyable experience. Don't put yourself at risk.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:43

Yes, that's that's really good advice. So how would you encourage those then Helen, that really feel that fear because you know HeadRightOut, it's all about stepping outside of your comfort zone and doing something that's a new experience and this for me was a relatively new experience but not completely new but I still I still felt that fear today and I still had those moments where I've wobbled and thought 'gosh really?!' and I still dreamt about it last night which is always a sign that it is on my mind. So what advice would you give to encourage people to face their fears and go ahead and try stuff for the first time?

Helen Jenkins 13:26

Definitely make sure you go with an instructor. Go with a SUP school. We are able to provide all of the equipment that is required for your first time in the water. It's about wearing comfortable clothes that you do feel happy to wear and actually just being a little bit brave, that is really key. You've got instructors with you who know the area and will tailor the session to your ability and skills so that you enjoy it. Wherever you get to in that session, it needs to be something that you think, I'd like to try that again. I think if you come off the water feeling like 'I achieved something', then then you're ready for the next step.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:11

Yes and I DEFINITELY felt like I've achieved something today. What are your age ranges that you deal with? I say deal with, I mean 'offer'. Offer sounds much nicer doesn't it?

Helen Jenkins 14:24

Over 12 at the moment and if they're underage, if it's a group under eighteen, we need to have them with a parent on the water as well. A parent or guardian will need to be on the water as well with them.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:35

And what about an upper age limit?

Helen Jenkins 14:36

We haven't really, because it's down to how you are. You can be really fit and well at 95 you know and feel that you really like to try it and and absolutely, why not? If you are physically fit, and physically well there's no reason why you shouldn't give it a whirl.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:53

Brilliant. And yeah, I mean I have to say, Mike obviously he's sixty-nine, he was sixty-nine a couple of days ago. He does have a few hip problems. And he had a little bit sciatica today as well. And he managed pretty well I thought, all things considered. He hadn't told me he had sciatica issues. But yeah, and he, you know, he hopped off for a while and took a few moments to let his body get used to being off the board. And then he got back on again a bit later. So yes, it worked well.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 15:29

Right. So well, this is this has been a very, very exciting day, then all in all. You're hoping that Blorenge SUP is going to take off. It's been exciting in that you have built up quite a lot of bookings between last week and August. And I'm just I'm interested to know where you see this in, say, three or four years time?

15:55

Well, you know, what we've been absolutely blown away, really, with the number of bookings that we've had, I think we launched on Thursday, we put the announcement out and we put the first bookings on, I just couldn't believe the the number of inquiries that came through within twenty-four hours. And literally three days after making that announcement, we are fully booked through June, July, and now into August. It's been absolutely incredible. There really is a pent-up interest. And just people are really keen to do stuff that's local, and we are lucky enough to have this on our doorstep. In three or four years time, I would love to see this become something that that we can scale up, that we can devote more time to. Damon and I both work full time at the moment. So it's just weekends, and perhaps one night in the week that we're going to be able to do through the summer months between May and perhaps probably really the middle of October in all honesty, and then probably a bit quieter through the winter months. So yes, if it can be something we can do into retirement and beyond. That would be absolutely phenomenal. Making your hobby your job. You know, it's an absolute dream, isn't it?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:05

Oh, yes, it would be fabulous. And I have to say I've got to just roll back there to something that you said - you work full time? Wow. I mean that that is incredible! When you think about what you have to do at work, and then the enormity of setting up a business like this. It's taken you eighteen months of hard graft I'm sure, to set this up and launch on Thursday. I mean that really does deserve a big medal and a big, big up to you and Damon and to Blorenge SUP, because you're still working full time, you're still operating this but still working full time. So I yes, I really do hope that this levers itself into something that you can scale up and start filtering out your full time job and weaving into something that is more SUP-orientated. You also said being able to continue into retirement if you wanted to. And I think that's wonderful to be considering something that is suited to you in your older years. And that just speaks volumes about SUP, about supping, doesn't it? That it's something for all ages,

Helen Jenkins 18:17

It is and I think it's not just keeping your body going. It's about keeping your mind going as well. And this is a really social activity to do. And you go out in the canal and you'll always meet people walking along the towpath. Everybody's happy to stop and talk to you. There's lots of people with an interest in it. You can go out and peer paddle. You can go and join other groups. There's a real online community around this and a real drive by lots of organizations to get people participating in it. So it is it's huge at the moment and I do see it's something that keeps you young keeps you young

Zoe Langley-Wathen 18:53

I love that. And would you say safety-wise, is it okay to go out on your own?

Helen Jenkins 18:59

I think it would be you really do need to go out with an instructor in the first instance. You absolutely need to make safety your first priority, you need to make sure you've got the right kit, that you understand the weather conditions, that somebody knows where you're going and when you're going to come back. If you're doing it in different water environments, they all come with very different concerns and risks. So if you're out on the sea, there's a whole new range of issues that you need to take into consideration. I would definitely say to go out with a school or an instructor until you are really comfortable and really aware of what you need to put in place.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:33

I would echo that. I think having gone out with you today, I definitely feel more confident than I did earlier and I know that I am going to need perhaps some more instruction before I then feel comfortable with going out on my own. But yes, it was definitely an enjoyable experience.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 19:50

So what drives you, Helen, I mean this is a bizarre question perhaps, but you've got so much going on in your life, potentially with work, and with family, and home, you know, what drives you? And what keeps you going to do this?

20:05

Oh, well, it's lovely. At the end of the day, there's nothing better than getting the board chucking it on the canal and going for a blast. You know, it's a really good way of taking your focus away from whatever's happened during the day, and just having a look and taking in what's around you, just having a chat with people. You can instantly feel yourself relax, and you've got to be in the moment, otherwise, you're going to fall in. So you do need to concentrate. And actually that's really refreshing. You get back, and you've taken a breath, you've absorbed some of the green, you've seen the heron, or you've seen the kingfisher, or have you watched the fish jumping out, and it just transports you. So you know, it's not another thing to tick off my list at the end of the day. It's just absolutely something that uplifts me. It's pure pleasure, really,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 20:50

And what better driving force to have than that? Pure passion and pure pleasure. I mean, you speak from a place of passion, I can hear it. And the fact that you enjoy it is pure pleasure for you. You just share that and you offload that to us. And we feel that, you know, when we're learning with you, it's so fabulous.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:07

So Helen, where can people find you if they're interested in finding out more about what you do, perhaps booking with you, and finding out where you operate from.

Helen Jenkins 21:16

So if you put Blorenge SUP into Google, we will come up, and it will take you straight to our website. You can have a little look at us. It's a booking online system, which is available. Our phone numbers are on there, or you can email us if you've got any questions or queries. We operate from Gilwern from the launch site at Gilwern. There's a car park there, there's a picnic area there. Very accessible. And it's on a really nice stretch of the Mon and Brec Canal

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:43

Oh Mon and Brec is just... I know we're both probably really biased, because you pretty much live on it, and we do live on it! And it is just beautiful. It You know, it runs around the contours of the hills and the mini mountains and the views are just spectacular, aren't they? So yes, what better place to learn to SUP than here. Wonderful. Well, Helen, thank you so much for your time. You've given us two hours of your time tutoring us. And now you've given us time just sharing more about Blorenge SUP. But I really do wish you well, and I'm pretty certain the listeners will wish you well in the success for your business. But thank you very much for coming and talking to us.

Helen Jenkins 22:26

Thank you very much for having me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:27

Thank you.

Helen Jenkins 22:28

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

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Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:35

Well, I hope you appreciated the nature of the raw sounds that were generated from that journey along the canal on the boat, and the sounds from the towpath too. It wasn't the quietest of episodes, I realise that, but it is what it is. And even the noise of the other boats going by just add to the character and the liveliness of the episode!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:57

Now I've got to say as nervous as I was on the paddleboard, Helen made me feel so comfortable. Each time I go back on a board, I still get the jelly legs at the moment, but it doesn't seem to last quite as long and I can always hear Helen in the back of my head just coaxing me through, talking me through what I need to do and the power and the importance of having tuition like that. Just having a couple of hours with an instructor is not to be sniffed at. It was so so helpful.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 23:26

Now I can't quite believe what Helen was talking to us about. But it's taken them eighteen months to set Blorenge SUP up, that they are both working full time, as well as running this new business. That is absolute commitment and what a passion. What a passion project. They are just working to get this and make this a full and vibrant new business. And there's such a need for people to get out there now and onto the water and learn paddleboarding. It's such a good time for them. I love what Helen said, "it's something that keeps you young". Cor, I need that definitely! But also I loved the way she said that she just looks forward to the end of the day, the end of the day of working and there's nothing better for her than getting the board and just chucking it on the canal and going for a blast. I just loved how she said that and just taking you away from whatever else has been happening for you during the day. Yeah, that really hit home for me. And that's what being outside and that outdoor medicine is all about. It's just having that opportunity to be mindful and to be in the moment and to be outside.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:39

Now I thanked Sarah Williams last week for inspiring me to start this podcast journey. And this week. I would really like to thank Lynsay Anne, Lynsay Anne Gould. She is the founder of Podcasting for Business and her new venture The Podcast Boutique, and she has given me so much support and technical advice, and has always been on hand to answer any silly questions that I might have had. Yes, I'm so grateful. So Lynsay Anne, thank you so much. This has been such a crazy whirlwind, and finally, I feel like I'm finding my feet.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:22

Although this podcast is aimed at midlife women, we welcome HeadRightOut Moments from anyone. So we've got a HeadRightOut Moment to share and celebrate today. So that can be teenagers. That could be younger people in their twenties and thirties. Men, I just want to let you know you're not you're not cancelled out it can be anyone. If you have stepped out of your comfort zone and done something that you really felt pushed you beyond the boundaries of what you would normally do. And then you felt like you've benefitted from it. Let me know, and you know, I could be reading your story out on here too. I love to share these moments because it just goes to show other people it proves to other people the power of stretching that comfort zone. So today, this is a HeadRightOut Moment from Glen Pilkington. I know Glen through the Yes Tribe. And he follows HeadRightOut on Instagram and on Facebook. And when I posted a picture of me paddleboarding a few weeks ago, and I asked if there was anybody else who had pushed themselves out of their comfort zone like I had that day because I've had a real case of wobbly legs, he came back at this is what he says:

Zoe Langley-Wathen 26:32

"After leaving hospital and recovering from COVID. I realized it would be some time before heading back to the mountains. So I picked up my camera again and started completing low level routes and sharing my photos".

Zoe Langley-Wathen 26:49

That was just a short and sweet message. But he added this super lake shore photograph. It was a moody sky and mountains in the background, and this beautiful glassy lake. And Glen is standing there with his back to the camera looking wistfully I'm assuming at the mountains, probably wishing he could go up and adventure there. But what a beautiful photo and I know the power of being outside and regaining his need to be outside by taking his camera out there and sharing the photos with us, his followers. It's kicked off his love for being outside again. And I'm sure that was you know, really hard to do after having COVID. I don't think it was a mild COVID; I know he was hospitalized, so not a pleasant experience. So Glen, thank you very much. If you want to go and have a look at some of Glen's photos, you can follow him on Instagram at gp._everydayadventurer. That's gp._everydayadventurer. Glen Pilkington, thank you!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 27:59

So next week, we are going to be chatting with Cherry Hamrick. She is 74-years-old with the energy and enthusiasm of a 24-year-old and she has been walking every day for well over 500 days now since the first lockdown! And she's oh, she's a kayaker, she's a dancer, she does the splits. She does THE most amazing splits. I mean, I have never been able to do the splits. But Cherry can. So yes, we will be chatting to Cherry next week.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 28:32

Don't forget to hit 'follow' in your podcast app and share, share, share. Let's help HeadRightOut grow to what it should be. Let's get the message out there. I hope my conversation with Helen may have inspired you to head out of your comfort zone and into the outdoors. Keeping your head right and healthy.

HeadRightOut Hugs to you all. x
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Why so many women are scared to adventure and recognising our female role models with Tough Girl Founder 003: Sarah Williams
25 sep 2021· HeadRightOut
A powerful conversation with Tough Girl Challenges founder and Tough Girl Podcast host, Sarah Williams. As friends, we easily cover multiple topics across our conversations. These include how to meet fear head-on and deal with it; why Sarah is inspired by two specific female role models/mentors and the moments in her life that nearly broke her. Interestingly, she elaborates on how those darkest times taught her the most and benefitted her in ways she could never have imagined. There are references to many long-distance trails, in the UK and overseas, with the Appalachian Trail being lauded by Sarah as the most life-changing for her, personally. A female adventure epic.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:09

Well, hello, and welcome back to the HeadRightOut Podcast. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen and I am your host. This is a relatively new show, and I hope if you're here for the first time that you will consider hitting that follow button in your podcast app, because we need to get as many subscribers and followers as we possibly can to grow the show.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:34

I'm really excited today, because we're going to be talking to Sarah Williams, who is the founder of Tough Girl Challenges, and the host of the amazing Tough Girl Podcast. It's a really powerful episode, and although we're two friends, and we giggle a lot, and we have a little bit of a chatter here and there, we do go into some deeper stuff. Sarah gives some really strong messages of how to look at fear and how to reframe it. We discuss why so many women seem to be hesitant to adventure and where that fear might actually come from. Sarah talks about her passion for wanting to set up Tough Girl Challenges, and the podcast way back six, seven years ago now. I asked her about who her role models are and that was a really fascinating part of the conversation. So I hope you'll stick with us to listen.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:29

Today, here is a beautiful, beautiful day. It's September. It's the seventh of September, and we have just got the hottest weather at the moment and the tops of the trees are changing. There's hardly a breeze out there and the canal is still. We've had some dog barking issues. So I will say, you might hear birds tweeting and that probably isn't a problem. But if you get some interruptions partway through the recording, I apologise because there was a bit of a dog pack issue out on the towpath partway through the recording. So yes, without further ado, I'm going to head off into the introduction.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:16

Okay, well welcome everybody to another episode of the HeadRightOut Podcast. I am so excited today. I can't begin to tell you I have got a very good friend of mine, an inspirational lady and all round adventurer, challenge inspirer. She is an author. She's an award winner. I'm going to go through her bio in a minute but we have got Sarah Williams, the host of the Tough Girl Podcast and founder of Tough Girl Challenges here. So good morning, Sarah.

Sarah Williams 02:47

Good morning. How you doing?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:48

I'm very well thank you. So I am going to introduce you, because I just felt all of the things that you have achieved over the last six or seven years just needs to be acknowledged and I don't want to miss anything out for certain.

Sarah Williams 03:02

I'm getting ready to be embarrassed and ready to cringe. It's a very British thing like oh my god, okay. I'm ready for it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:08

You've got to soak this up and enjoy. So Tough Girl Challenges was started in 2014 as a way of motivating and inspiring women and girls. My mission is to increase the amount of female role models in the media with a focus on women who do adventures and undertake big physical challenges. I am the host of the two times award winning Tough Girl Podcast where I interview inspirational female explorers, adventurers, athletes and everyday women who have overcome great challenges. The podcast is listened to in 174 countries around the world and has passed 1.8 million downloads. Based on monthly downloads. The Tough Girl Podcast is in the top 15% of podcasts globally. I completed the Marathon des Sables in April 2016. That's six marathons in six days across the Sahara Desert. In 2017, I through hiked the Appalachian Trail solo and unsupported. That's 2190 miles in 100 days, which I also daily vlogged. In 2018 I cycled over 4000 kilometers from Vancouver, Canada via the Pacific Coast Highway to Cabo San Lucas in Mexico. I have a master's in Women and Gender Studies from Lancaster University 2018 with my dissertation focusing on Women, Adventure and Fear. I'm a qualified yoga instructor and personal trainer (2019). In September 2019, I walked the Camino Portuguese - 675 kilometres from Lisbon, Portugal to Santiago de Compostela in Spain, and that was sponsored by challenge with Cicerone. I ended the year by walking the Lycian Way in Turkey. In 2020. I started in Australia walking the Overland Track in Tasmania. And now to celebrate the six-year anniversary of the Tough Girl Podcast I am undertaking six UK-based challenges: The Tough Girl Adventure Series, also sponsored by Cicerone. They include, and we're going to talk about these in a moment, the Anglesey Coastal Path, the South Downs Way, the Pilgrim's Way, the West Highland Way, climbing Ben Nevis and walking the Great Glen Way. Wow. You were smiling and we were like 'yay, yay'. This is such a wonderful, awesome list of achievements. I feel inspired. I have to say Sarah, all the way through, I've been following you since we met in 2014, or was it 2015, I don't know?

Sarah Williams 04:59

It was 2015 at the Women's Adventure Expo.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 04:59

Yeah. I've always found you to be somebody who inspires me. You're almost like a mentor from afar. Each time, I see you developing and growing, through these challenges and activities that you're doing. And your masters in Women and Gender Studies... that absolutely fascinated me. Because you are delving deeper into the area you're interested in. So, the area that you are interested in... tell us more... what is it?

Sarah Williams 04:59

I'm actually getting emotional, I'm going to start crying soon. It's like 'oh, my goodness'!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:06

So yeah, where does Sarah Williams come from? What is it that you're interested in? Why? Why?

Sarah Williams 06:22

Oh, my God, the why the big question. I think I've always been fascinated by the motivation and the inspiration side of things in so that personal self development. So I was always sat with like Tony Robbins and reading the secret. And I used to apply it to my life when I worked in banking down in London. So that was like a big part of me. I think one of the things that I noticed when I was in banking was just a) like how male dominated it was, and obviously all the sexism and misogyny and everything else that was going on that maybe that I don't think I really understood when I was twenty-four or twenty-five, about what I was experiencing. And I think the other side of my personality was doing these quite extreme things to shock people like wanting to run marathons, or to doing these, like these Tough Mudder races, or you know, the obstacle course races and people being like, "oh, but you're so you're so girly, and you're so feminine, and you love the color pink, and yet you like running ridiculous distances and doing these crazy challenges".

Sarah Williams 07:18

I realised in my early 30s, that I needed to make some changes in my life. And honestly, I'm more than happy to talk in more detail about that. But to cut the long story short, I ended up leaving my job in banking in 2013, didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, I ended up going travelling, spending time in Australia, heading over to Kilimanjaro to go and climb Kilimanjaro, I spent some time in South America. And I think for the first time a long time, I really started asking myself these important questions. What is your WHY? How do you want to spend your life, like what do you want the next ten-twenty years to look like when you are on your death bed looking back over your life? And what do you want to have experienced? And I've never really thought about it so much. I'd always just been on this path and just following this journey on this route, like I was on a river, but I didn't know where I was going. I hadn't really thought it all through. And when I was over in South America, I finally got this time to think and reflect and to really dig deeply into these subjects. And for me that involved a lot of journaling, a lot of writing, it's been a lot of internal self reflection, which sounds wishy washy, but many people don't spend that time getting to know themselves. And I asked myself those questions. And for me, it was about this travel and exploration. And it was about challenging myself, it was about adventure. But on the flip side of that it was the motivation and the inspiration. And I wanted to encourage other young women and girls and I knew that I was very fortunate.

Sarah Williams 08:41

I've always been a confident person. And when I was 18, I went traveling a lot of it solo by myself through like Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand and Camp America. I think that really helped me positively in the business world. And I remember just interacting with a lot of women who maybe didn't necessarily have that confidence to go after things. I couldn't really understand it. And I wanted to help them to take that next step to be more confident and to embrace challenge and to say yes to different experiences, because I've never had a problem of saying yes. Like, you want to go traveling? Yes, you want to bungee jump? Yes. You want to jump out of a plane and skydive? Yes. Like I would always say yes. And want to experience these, these opportunities. And that's how Tough Girl Challenges came together. It was my love of adventure and challenge and wanting to to inspire women and girls. And it's definitely been a journey that's evolved. I'm sure I've mentioned here, I started initially blogging and nobody read my blog, not even my mom because she wasn't even technical. And you know, as I went on and did more things, I eventually started the podcast and started sharing more voices and started taking on more personal challenges like you read out. So it's definitely been this very long and winding journey. And I almost want to say at this point as well. I always hate for people. It's very easy, I think for now for people to look at my life and just be like, 'oh, it's easy for Sarah. She's off doing these adventures and challenges and she's being sponsored and she's got these millions of downloads', but actually, I started with zero, you know. I didn't know anything, I'd built my website, I didn't know how to podcast, I learned it all on this on this journey over the past seven years. And it's been seven years of consistency, seven years of hard work seven years of dedication. The ups and the downs, and the setbacks and the obstacles, and the challenges and the barriers, and the sacrifices, and everything else that's gone on that maybe people don't necessarily see. So it hasn't always been this smooth journey of just like, ooh, I want to become an adventurer and motivational speaker and travel the world doing adventures.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:37

I think that's what's always struck me about you, Sarah. Is that your commitment, your absolute drive and commitment to what you do and what you believe in is there. You show up every day. There's never any 'oh, I don't feel well today, or I'm too tired', or or if there is you tell us on Instagram stories. Which is great.

Sarah Williams 10:59

I'm having a pajama day!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 11:00

Yeah, that's right. But you still show up, and and you're still so committed, and I think those six-seven years of hard work is absolutely clear. You know, you don't get to where you are now without having worked through that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 11:17

What I'm interested in actually, is that you said you've always been resilient, you've always been confident. Maybe you didn't say resilient. But you said you've always been confident. Now you worked in a very male-dominated environment in banking, I'm assuming? Did you find that that toughened your resilience, your mental resilience? Or were you already resilient, prior to that?

Sarah Williams 11:42

I think it to be honest, I think it almost broke me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 11:44

Really?

Sarah Williams 11:45

Yeah, I think I was confident, I think a lot of it had to do with my parents, like being part of sporting teams. I was privately educated and there is something about privately educated, you do just build the confidence and the network and the connections with it. And I think traveling solo really helped me and I, and I would think to myself, so if I, if I was in a tough situation, like a business meeting, or whatever, where it's just me, youngest female, everyone else is male right in their forties. And I was thinking, I'm gonna have to have some difficult conversations, I'd always reflect back and think, Sarah, you can handle this. You traveled the world, when you were eighteen. You can handle this. Stuff like that. So it was always building on experiences and everything else. But I think my resilience and my toughness did almost break me because I couldn't understand why I wasn't happy when I was giving it my all and from the outside everyone else thought that I should be happy with with what I was doing. And I don't know if people work normal jobs doing a nine-to-five. Well, mine was more like six-to-11. But you have these Sunday night blues, where you're literally just worrying and anxious about the week ahead. 'What do I need to do? What do I need to achieve? What have I got to get done? I've got so much time to do it'. It was almost this cycle that you were trapped in week-by-week, month-by-month, and then year-by-year and I wanted to tough it out. Why wasn't I tough? Why couldn't I handle it? Why? I felt like a massive failure. When I left I thought I obviously can't hack it in this world. But it was more about I suppose my mental health like the more I reflect I think as I've as it's further in the distance, it's easier to look back with more of a discerning eye and be like, actually no I was really very, very unhappy. And I'm so glad I left. I just don't know where I'd be. So yeah, I think it almost broke me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 13:36

Did you, in going off, because you then decided to travel, you must have had a period where you were almost making friends with yourself or re-finding yourself because you just said that you felt like a failure. You were mentally broken. But you had come to feel like you were a failure because you weren't meeting whatever you were supposed to be meeting that was just completely impossible. So yeah, did you in those travels get to a point where you refound yourself.

Sarah Williams 14:04

I did, but it probably took me until after the Appalachian Trail.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:08

Okay,

Sarah Williams 14:09

I know that sounds like a really long time. So I left my job in 2013. It wasn't until probably the end of 2017 where I started to sort of accept myself. I think the key reason for that is that deep reflection time that I got on the Appalachian Trail being out in nature every day. Wild camping night after night. Not showering for nine days. Pushing your body, you know, really physically very, very hard. But also it was this quality time to really think, because I was I was still reflecting on myself and I think I definitely after I left work I felt so lost, like what am I going to do with my life and I didn't have a purpose. I think for me figuring out the mission with Tough Girl Challenges to motivate inspire women girls, I suddenly had this very clear picture of the mission of what I wanted to do. What my purpose was going to be. Getting to know myself, and really know myself... what am I actually like? What drives me? What are the previous experiences which I needed to really reflect back on and do a lot of deep self analysis, to be honest?

Sarah Williams 14:17

I think sometimes this can be a very scary thing because a lot of people don't like being alone with their own thoughts and having to actually process it. For me I found it just empowering where walking every day, just letting these situations ruminate through my head, how I responded, how I acted, things which had happened to me which had impacted on me and made me feel upset, unworthy or worthless or like a failure... and managing to get through all of that and get to a point and this will sound wishy-washy, but I know myself. I love myself. Not in that arrogant, "I love myself, I love myself", but as in deep down, I know my value, I know my worth, I know what I'm doing. I'm just very comfortable being me and being comfortable with the decisions that I have made and embracing them.

Sarah Williams 16:12

There was this element where I was embarrassed about what I was doing. What are people going to think of me? What if I fail? People are going to judge me because I used to have this high-flying career and now suddenly I'm sleeping in the woods and I want to be an adventurer and I want to be a motivational speaker and I was worried and scared about other people's judgements. But now I've got to that point where other people's judgements of me have absolutely NOTHING to do with me at all, and I'm the one who's got to live with myself.

Sarah Williams 16:41

So yeah, it took a long time but the Appalachian Trail was really key for that. Those three months of walking and deep, deep thinking and processing was really powerful for me, like cringey as it is to say but, life-changing. It really was a life-changing experience.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:04

Yep, it's profound. That is absolutely profound, because I don't know about you but I had never experienced that level of solo... solo company. That sounds bizarre but that time with myself when I was walking my first long-distance walk, that time with yourself is completely something that you haven't experienced before and you don't realise at the time perhaps that you're going to come away feeling differently, acting differently with a different perspective on your life. Like you say, it's those deep analytical moments. I found, (I call it my Outdoor Medicine now), but I find that time in the outdoors is massively helpful for problem solving. So if I've got something I'm trying to figure out, my head's not clear or I'm writing and I'm not quite sure what I'm going to be writing next, I can just go and walk and just keep my head empty and then all of a sudden those answers will just filter through. And it's the longer walks that that seems to happen on... not the going out for a day... although it is still helpful... but it's the longer walks that are the real deep dive in, and it sounds like that's what the Appalachian Trail did for you.

Sarah Williams 17:04

Oh, a hundred percent. I totally agree, like the Outdoor Medicine, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. I almost want everyone to experience this! Go on a long-distance walk. Multi-day hike and adventure and just be alone, know that you can survive and get through it, it's because it's so empowering and that's how you build that confidence, knowing you can go out there and look after yourself. You don't need to rely on anybody else. You've got the tools and the skills to do it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:04

Wow, yeah. Absolutely that. So why are so many women in particular, do you think then scared of trying adventure, going on an adventure? I know you've perhaps touched on this area in your masters as well. I'm just keen to know where the fear comes from.

Sarah Williams 18:57

I think it I think it starts really young age actually. It's sometimes drilled into girls, you know, protect yourself, don't go out there. Be careful in the dark. Don't do this. Don't do that, and it's almost like these micro aggressions these micro comments. I still get comments now, 'aren't you scared of doing by yourself?' and ooh you know, this is like walking in England or something or you know, fly, you know, going travelling. And so people's comments can get into your head, and people don't realise that you're socially conditioned from quite a young age to behave and act a certain way and not put yourself in these risky, challenging situations. And it's really difficult to be strong enough to break out of that mould, and that's not to say that I'm not scared when I go on adventures and challenges because you do have to follow your gut instinct. But men just don't understand this. As a woman travelling when I was on the South Downs Way, and I was looking for somewhere to wild camp and a guy had walked past me and then he walked past the other way. And I'm now in my head thinking well, I can't stop now. I've got to keep on walking. And so he's ahead of me and I actually I filmed him because I thought well, I don't know know who he is. So I ended up filming him from behind. So people would have a record, if something did happen. This is what goes through my head, I had to keep on walking, he pulled to the side to fiddle with his shoe laces. And now I'm ahead of him, which to me felt like this psychological game. So he's behind me, I can't stop walking, I've already walked 20 miles with a heavy backpack. And now I'm having to like, speed up, go faster, you know, to get to get ahead. And there's this constant awareness that you need to have like, even in when I was cycling out to the Coast Highway, and in Mexico, I sort of met two guys and ended up cycling a little bit of Mexico with them. And it was it was just a mental relief, because suddenly, like men weren't looking at me, or I wasn't having to analyze like, everywhere I stopped. Looking around, you know, to see, right, well, who's in there? Can I go in there? Who's watching me? And when we broke off, suddenly it all came back, and I was having to pay so much more attention to my surroundings and my environment. To make these split second decisions, you know, who you meet up with, who you're sharing a room with? Or who you know, who you're chatting to in the bar? Do I trust them? Am I safe with them. All of this analysis, and it's this, it is this fear. And so don't get me wrong. There's lots of different barriers and elements that make women scared and fearful. And some of them are external, and some of them are internal.

Sarah Williams 21:25

I think also for a lot of women, it's for me, certainly, I obviously I've tried not to generalize, because it is different for for all women, because, you know, look, I'm white middle class, it's very different if you're a black woman, or a brown woman or from a minority, it definitely would be completely different. But from my perspective, it's those fears of judgment, or what are people gonna think of me? What are they thinking about me? So I think that there's a lot of different routes, which filter into these levels of fear. And it's, it's never one thing. And sometimes you've just got to chip away at the one barrier, which is stopping you. Sometimes it's still also it's things like it's, it's a lack of knowledge, but that's not from a negative place. That's from a lack of opportunity that you haven't been exposed to these things. You know, I was very fortunate I was doing Duke of Edinburgh when I was fourteen-fifteen-sixteen years old. And so I was really opened up to that world. I knew about backpacking, camping and hiking. I've had these experiences or, you know, if you've been a member of the Girl Guides, or the Scouts and you'd have these opportunities. But if you haven't, then you know, it's another barrier that you have to have to end up overcoming. So yeah, multifaceted, very different, depending on the on the individual. But yeah, so I've gone off at a complete tangent there.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:45

No, you haven't. It's fascinating. And you know, I had a bit of a teary moment there because I know that although I had a lovely childhood, where I was able to run off into the fields and go walking, if I wanted to, I also did grow up with those messages of 'oh, no, you shouldn't do that', and 'mind that' and 'watch, watch where you're going because these people around' and other things like well, you know, 'don't go near the ditches because there's a man in there that will come and pull your legs down'. And these are stories that are passed on through families, and, you know, that message that I was told was told to me to keep me away from the ditch because if I fall in it, it might be harmful. So it's told as a story, but actually that then created a huge fear in me of these still waters because the Somerset ditches are like ditches not like ditches we have everywhere else because they're really wide and deep and still, and they're covered with duck weed. And they're just they're just, yeah, quite freaky. But so yeah, that that has only been recently that I realised that that's where that fear comes from. So yeah, these messages are very powerful. And we don't realise what we're doing with our children when we tell them.

Sarah Williams 24:08

Even with little girls like, 'don't get dirty', 'don't do that'. Don't you know you? They're just treated different than little boys, which were maybe encouraged to take on more risks and more adventure.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:22

Absolutely. So do you have a role model yourself, Sarah, somebody that you look to for inspiration or for advice? I mean, it might be a physical mentor, somebody that you speak to on a regular or ad-hoc basis or it might just be somebody that you follow in, in the media or in social media? Is there somebody that gives you inspiration because you are massively inspirational for us, but who inspires you?

Sarah Williams 24:57

I have, I mean, so so many women inspire me, like the women that I've interviewed, the stories that they shared are just awe inspiring. Like what they've done. What they've achieved is, is incredible. And it's always really difficult to single somebody out. But I definitely had this connection, almost straightaway, I got introduced to Rosie Swale-Pope, who's this wonderful, wonderful, wonderful lady. I remember the first time I spoke to her in November 2019, or maybe a couple months beforehand, and it was nothing like thatI'd ever experienced, because Rosie just talks and shares and, and she, she likes to talk and, you know I like to talk but I also I love to listen as well. And hearing her speak and Rosie was running from Brighton over to Kathmandu in Nepal and at the time she was seventy-three or seventy-four years young. She's run around the world and she's done all these crazy, amazing adventures and we just really connected. Listening to her and I think I was just so inspired by Rosie's life and what she'd done. You mentioned the Lycian Way, so I was out in Turkey at that time, I finished the Lycian Way and Rosie was in Istanbul, too. So I was with my with my friend Kat and we went and met Rosie.

Sarah Williams 26:13

And it was just this I don't know, it was just it was like meeting like a kindred spirit and just somebody who's just so full of love and joy and optimism and her way of living, her way of looking at the world. We went on this night out, she sleeps in this little cart called Ice Chick and she leaves her trainers outside and in the morning she woke up and she messaged me saying "Oh Sarah, somebody's stolen my trainers". Obviously she needs the trainers to run, but it just doesn't faze her anyway, she eventually she came across the guy who's wearing her trainers. But Rosie's so kind, her thought process is not how it impacts 'me'. But it's like, well, he needed shoes. That's why he took them It wasn't from a negative place. It was it was from this place of just almost survival. And so eventually I think she got her trainers back but either bought him a pair of shoes or gave him a pair of wellington boots or something that she had, but just had her joy in for living and we carried on keeping in contact after that. And we would speak on the phone and have these little WhatsApp chats and Rosie eventually ended up coming back to the to the UK because of because of COVID and she ended up, this was in 2020, she ended up running LEJOG, so from Land's End to John O'Groats. And as she was running up it was during September and I was like 'Rosie! You got to come and stay.' And she was like, 'I'd love to come and stay and meet your wonderful family!' And so she came and stayed for my birthday - was that last year? Yeah, I think it was like yeah, and so you know, Rosie came to stay, she's met my family and she's just this incredible woman who's just just amazing. So we do have these like regular conversations, and I did another Facebook Live interview with her. So she's just an incredible role model and I think part of that is because I want to be that fit. I want to be that healthy. I want to be that strong. I want to be that resilient, when I'm in my seventies. That is the type of life that I want to be living. She's just somebody... yeah, I'm probably just saying the same thing over again, because she's so, so inspiring. The other lady as well, who, who I've spoken to a few times, I wouldn't say that she's like, she's not like my mentor, but I think I really want her to be but I haven't got the courage to say look, can we speak on a more regular basis? but is Roz Savage. Roz Savage was the first woman to row the the Indian Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean and the Pacific Ocean. And, and I think one of the things that I love about her story is that I see myself in her as well. So she worked in, she was a management consultant until she was thirty-eight. So slightly older than me, before she packed it all in and made this massive change in her life. But I look at her and what she's done and think well, I've almost got like a five-year headstart on her, you look what she's achieved. And with the books that she's written, the work that she's done, the challenges that she's done, I love her again, how she's lived her life, this very alternative life. And so I think for me, like Roz and Rosie are very, very inspiring. Definitely sort of role models, but actually, I haven't, I wouldn't say that I've properly got like a full-on mentor, but it is something that I would love to have. I almost feel as though, not that I'm breaking new ground in this area. But because with the podcast and the adventures, like podcasting is so sort of new and niche, there's sort of nobody else. I mean, there are the people doing it now but there's nobody who were like ahead of me. I don't think I know it's not a race and it's not about comparison. And so I sort of looked at mentors as more of them around like the adventure piece and around how they choose to live their life. But yeah, I am so lucky because my social media is amazing. I know there's a lot of rubbish that goes on in social media, but mine's just full of these amazing women, like ALL women, doing challenges and adventures and cycling and swimming the English Channel and doing sailing and running and planning and preparing and, and it's just it's just like this massive inspiration fest where it's just like, oooh, that sounds good and oh my goodness.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 30:07

I get so much from watching them do that, don't you?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 30:10

Yeah and so just filling your social media with those sort of people. Not the people that are hanging their dirty washing out, you know on the line, but it's the people, the people that are inspiring you with their zest for life really. Their, 'I want to do this', their ability to carry out more challenges.

Sarah Williams 30:10

Yeah!

Sarah Williams 30:26

But things like 100 Mappy Days, watching you grow with HeadRightOut and how that's grown and developed from the initial idea to where it is now and it's amazing. Even Frankie, Frankie Dewar, with Extraordinary Ordinary You, like seeing that journey that she's gone on. And Joe Moseley with the paddleboarding and inspiring women over the age of 50, and then starting her podcast. There's so many women who it just seems to be exploding but just in such a positive way. And my challenge is I don't know if it is, it is actually exploding, getting bigger and more women are doing this, or I'm just so immersed in the world that that's all I see. So I don't know if my blinkers are on and maybe it isn't as big as I think it is.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 31:14

I think I'm in the same place as you because I've said to a couple of people in the past that you know, people either either met on the towpath, or people I've been chatting to elsewhere. I said, Oh yes, it's these really famous people or this really well-known woman that's doing X, Y, Z. You know, Rosie Swale-Pope, for example, and they say, 'Who?' And I say, 'What do you mean, you don't know her?!' I read Rosie's book, probably four years ago now. And then Mike read it as well. And we were just completely blown away by her. That was the first time I've actually read or heard anything about Rosie. And yes, I've been following her ever since and would totally agree that she is an absolute inspiration. I don't want to keep reusing this word inspiration, but there are so many women out there who just fill you with that kick, that nudge, that poke that you need it's like, gosh, if they can do this, why can't I? You know, I really need to be able to jump into that arena and give it a go. Because there are so many things that I have said to myself in the past. Oh, no, I couldn't do that. And then it's like, well, why couldn't you, Zoe? Why couldn't you? So yes, and I love it, that there are so many women out there that are that are telling us that message, that are giving us that message of support and encouragement to go ahead and do it.

Sarah Williams 32:35

I'm going to say, I think this is the power of women's voices. Because for so long, especially with like you know, it's always the power of the internet for this for so long with like mainstream media, the radio, the TV, the newspaper, what we were exposed to was who had the power and the control of the mainstream media, which was white men. And so women's voices weren't being heard. Their stories weren't being shared. And so actually with the internet, the middle men and have been removed. You know, women can start blogs, they can share their social media. You can't get on the radio, you can start a podcast. Women aren't being on TV, you start a YouTube channel. You can take control of the narrative and the stories because I want to hear women's stories. I want to hear women's voices, I am desperate to hear these things. Because to think you know, growing up in the eighties and nineties, it was just men's stories, men's voices. History, 'his story' that women and girls grew up with. And we need these voices. We need the films, the books, everything, because Stacey Copeland said that passion, if you can't see it, you can't become it. And I'd always follow that on if you can't, well, how did they do? It is brilliant seeing women in these positions, but actually, it's the how, how did they do it? Like? How do they pay for it? How did they decide on the challenge? What did they do when they did fail? How do they deal with all those setbacks? And so, yeah, women's voices for the win!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:56

Definitely. So, even though you might not have a personal mentor, I still think that, you know, we can have mentors that are from afar, you know, they might not know they're our mentors, but they they definitely are. So what would you say, was the best piece of advice or quote that you might have ever gained from one of those women that inspire you? Is there something that sticks with you?

Sarah Williams 34:22

I think one of the... well, there's a couple of things. One is about... I don't necessarily think this is for a woman, I think this is from a man, so somebody else who's inspired me maybe more like the marketing side and building a business, building a brand is this guy, I think I mentioned to you is called Gary Vaynerchuk.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:43

Yes.

Sarah Williams 34:44

And the key thing that I remember thinking about was just about having to think long term. And I think Tony Robbins said that, you know people overestimate what they can achieve in a year and underestimate what they can achieve in a decade. And I think that's really helped me to view things. From this really sort of long term perspective as in, I used to be very, very impatient many years ago, you know I decide what I wanted to go after, and I expected it to happen like, straightaway, I couldn't understand why, you know, things weren't happening. And now I probably matured or my patience level has grown into an extent where I know things that they do take time. And so I think for me, one of the biggest things, just having this long term perspective, so I don't think in for Tough Girl Challenges I've never thought in terms of just a couple of years, I've always thought of like, what's it going to be like, in ten years and fifteen years time, when I've got one thousand episodes of the Tough Girl Podcast, when women are like, well, I want to go to visit the poles, okay. Well, I've spoken to every woman who's been to the poles who's alive. Or they want to go and cycle the transcontinental, I've spoken to all the women who've done it. Women, they've got these stories, and we can also follow their journey as well. So speaking to women, the example like Anna McNuff speaking to her after her New Zealand cycle, and speaking to her after her South American adventure and speaking to her after her Barefoot Britain challenge. So there's almost this historical journey that can be tracked as well for these women to see. Look, they didn't just end up climbing Mount Everest. Like this is how they started, this is their journey, this is their progress. And so thinking long term, being patient, I think that's, that's probably the best advice that I've ever heard is, you know, be patient show up every day. There's a great book as well, it sort of links in with this, it's called The Slight Edge. I always forget the author's name, Jeff, Jeff, something or other.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 36:34

We can find it.

Sarah Williams 36:35

Yeah, but it's basically about being consistent. Like, like he said, it's showing up every day. It's, you know, putting out the episodes, putting out the content, being proactive on social media, engaging. So I've said that again. But yeah, being patient thinking long term, I think, is incredibly powerful. Because, you know, even HeadRightOut. Where are you going to be in 10 years time? It's amazing to think about, with the podcast now. So in 2021, you know, you could have... I'm trying to do my mental maths..., one episode a week... you could have nearly 500 episodes out.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:11

Wow.

Sarah Williams 37:11

The more women that you've connected with, and shared with, the more stories that have been told, the more voices that have gotten out there. And I think that's sometimes what keeps me going is that thinking long term, and also thinking about the legacy I want to leave behind.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:25

That legacy, what you were saying then, something just clicked in my head. And it wasn't the word legacy but it was like library, it was wealth, wealth of information. You know, you're not just inspiring the women of today, it's the women of the future. It's the young girls, it's the children that haven't even been born. And having that hub, that place that people can go to, to hear those stories, that wealth of information is just absolutely imperative. We need that. We definitely need that.

Sarah Williams 38:03

I didn't know about the Appalachian Trail or the Continental Trail Divide, or that women could go and cycle the Pacific Coast. I didn't know about these adventures and challenges. And now I think growing up, hopefully, these young girls who are you know, seventeen-eighteen and maybe want to take gap years or you know, making these decisions about their life. They can listen to these women saying, actually, you know, I don't need to go straight on to university. I don't need to get a job doing this. Actually, I can follow my passions and my interest and have faith that it will all turn out right in the end. And yeah, it's exciting for me that girls are going to grow up with these voices and also being able to see their role models on TV or watch them on YouTube. I think it just opens so many doors. So yeah, really exciting, really exciting time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 38:48

And you are definitely flying that flag, Sarah, so fabulous. Right. I'm going to switch now into a different tone. So I turned fifty this year and there is also another big birthday this year. In the same year, in fact, this week we are recording this today. Is it the eighth it must be Yes, it's the eighth of September today. 2021. And in two day's time, there's a rather big event happening, Sarah Williams. Sarah, what happens on Friday?

Sarah Williams 39:23

Well it's the 10th of September and I'm turning forty!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 39:28

Yay!

Sarah Williams 39:30

It's amazing. And I'm so happy and content and excited because also, I don't know how turning thirty was for you. But turning thirty for me was just the most horrendous experience. It was awful. Like I wasn't where I wanted to be in my life. I just felt like why aren't I married? Why don't I have kids and all of this sort of thing and honestly I wasn't very content with with other areas of my life. And to me now, like turning forty, a) to be honest, I think it's actually it's a real privilege to age like, I've really thought about this a lot, you know, especially when you lose friends, when, when you're, like, I lost a good friend when I was eighteen. And, you know, losing friends throughout the years, you think, wow, it's actually it's a privilege to get to this age, it's a privilege to grow older. But even more, so it's just, it's where my life is now. So things that I dreamed about, you know, all those years ago, when I was in South America, on these buses, about the type of life that I wanted to lead, I am leading that life. I have designed this life that works for me, and I do get to work on these adventures and challenges I can work from anywhere in the world, as long as I have Wi-Fi and a laptop and a mobile phone. I'm, I'm super good. And so I just feel so content, happy, joyful, just really, just in a really good space. And just also just really excited about the next decade, like just wanting to be strong, fit and healthy and spend the next ten years just really maximizing life and challenges and getting out there and just, you know, living life to the full and living life on my terms and having this freedom of choice and freedom of where to go. It's so yeah, turning forty is just, it's an honor, like, I'm like, I don't know. Haha!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:22

That makes me so happy to hear because, you know, there are so many women that... I see it on social media. You know they're saying, 'oh my gosh, I'm hitting forty' or 'oh, my gosh, I'm hitting fifty', particularly this year, because my school year, you know, we all hit our fiftieth this year or end of last year. And for the most part, most people are enjoying it and realising that there's absolutely no difference but you know, there are some that like 'oh my gosh, I'm over the hill' and it's just trying to say 'no, you're not, this is just the start. This is this is the start of the next chapter, the next stage'. And what you've done is you've set yourself up to transition into that stage with a positive attitude and with making sure you've got all your tools there. And it's such an exciting time. And that's what really, I mean, I wanted to have you on the podcast ages ago anyway, but I had decided in my head that I wanted to interview midlife women. Midlife and up. And you weren't forty at that point. And I thought well, here we go. This is an ideal opportunity to introduce you to midlife and introduce you to other midlife women and other younger women who are going to be looking forward to coming into midlife. You know with such positivity, so yes. Happy Birthday in advance for Friday.

Sarah Williams 42:53

Thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 42:54

So let's talk about then what you've been doing for the last couple of months, actually for the last month, and coming on into September. So I know that your series, your adventure series, is to celebrate the sixth birthday of the Tough Girl Podcast, but I'm assuming it's kind of around your birthday as well to help celebrate your fortieth birthday? Would you like to share?

Sarah Williams 43:18

Well I've got something else for my fortieth, which I haven't shared, but I can share that with you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 43:22

That's exciting. A nugget!

Sarah Williams 43:23

Oooh, ooh it is, it's a real gem actually. But also wouldn't it be amazing if when we speak again, maybe in like ten years time when I'm turning fifty to be able to reflect back on like the next ten year journey, I think that will be so exciting

Sarah Williams 43:28

We'll aim to do a birthday bonus every ten years.

Sarah Williams 43:39

Yes!! That would be incredible because it would just reflect on the journey. But I mean the Tough Girl... obviously 2020 was just such a tough year and I very fortunately I started my year in Australia walking the Overland Track and then in March I literally flew back into the country before I got locked down and so there hasn't been any travel and adventure for me for quite a long time. And and for me I wanted to be double vaccinated. I wanted it to be more appropriate for me to go and travel and adventure. And a part of my way of coping was planning adventures and challenges and I was looking around the UK of the different walks and the National Trails and there's a HUGE amount to do especially in the UK with even if you just walking and cycling and everything else. I've been thinking a lot - I haven't really ventured that much in the UK. Because as you probably know, I hate the cold weather. And our UK summers are sometimes not the best. You have four days of sunshine and then it's rain and gray skies. But it all basically all came together. How did it come together? Well, actually, it also links to Rosie because I'd been invited to this running festival called Run Fest Run which was down in Winchester, and Rosie when she's not travelling, she lives on like the South Downs Way. So I was thinking, wouldn't it be lovely to catch up with Rosie on the way and then I was thinking oh well I could walk the South Downs Way. That would be pretty great. Then I was just googling around other walks near Winchester, and it came up on on the Cicerone website about the Pilgrims Way. And that goes from Winchester to, I was going to say Eastbourne, but it's not. It's Canterbury. And then I have a friend in London who I wanted to catch up with, and then I realised, 'oh my auntie, she lives in Guildford'! That's literally on the way. So, you know, when things... I believe in... serendipity when things start to fit together. I've been wanting to do a walk with another girl called Alex Mason, who's a phenomenal adventure and hiker. And we've been in contact for many years, but never actually met. And we were we were talking about walking LEJOG in April of this year. But the timing didn't work and COVID was still all over the place. So that didn't come across. And so I just mentioned to her that, hey, I'm thinking of doing the Anglesey Coastal Path, would you be free? She was like, yes! She was coming. She had just walked Hadrian's Wall. So she was coming back down. And so it all started to come together. So we ended up walking Anglesey Coastal Path, which was incredible and beautiful and amazing, with the stunning scenery and wild camping and this seven-eight day adventure, which was just pretty brutal, because I hadn't had my backpack on for quite a while. And so you know, the first couple of days while your body's adapting and feeling super sore. So we did the Anglesey Coastal Path and I'm filming it and vlogging it as well, so there are all these videos that'll be coming out in the next couple of months.

Sarah Williams 46:25

But it's just nice to be honest, to be out in nature again, and to be around people and to be walking. I like achieving things and so to feel as though I'm actually achieving something. So yes, I've just finished my third trail. So I've done the Anglesey Coastal Path. I walked the South Downs Way, one hundred miles from Eastbourne to Winchester, and I've just come back from the Pilgrims Way, which was really, really beautiful and stunning. And so I'll have a little bit of break and then I'll be heading up to Scotland to walk the West Highland Way, climb Ben Nevis and then do the Great Glen Way.

Sarah Williams 46:57

But I mentioned about for my 40th, and I've been thinking a lot about this, I'm thinking by the time I reach the Great Glen Way, I'm gonna be pretty fit. I feel pretty strong and fit. I did a little bit of running actually with my pack, which was awesome, on the Pilgrims Way. And I was thinking, well, the Great Glen Way is basically seventy-eight miles running from Fort William over to Inverness, and it's pretty flat. And I was thinking, well, maybe when I finish that, I've got two options. And I'm almost... I'm actually going to talk about them, because I think that's a powerful way of getting the story out there. I was thinking, could I do the Great Glen Way in a day? Could I? When I say a day, I mean like continuously. So just start at like, four or five in the morning. Just see how long it takes me to walk seventy-eight miles. So that was option one, which I don't know, it's just ridiculous. Because the longest I've ever done is is when I ran fifty-two miles on the Marathon des Sables. And then the other option I was thinking of is wouldn't it be awesome to maybe do forty miles? I don't know, that seems more attainable, maybe a little bit more realistic. And then like, you know, to celebrate my fortieth birthday walking forty miles along the Great Glen Way. This is after - I will have already walked it in one direction. So I will finished all the six challenges. This is just for for fun. Even more, an extra. And then I think well I try both of them. So I could say yeah, like start with the forty-miler, see how I get on, see how my body's doing? And then see if I'm like, 'okay, let's just push on'.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:27

Just go for it. It is like an ultra marathon and there are people who walk ultramarathons across this continuous. Yes, yes. That sounds amazing. And I don't see any reason why you won't be able to achieve that.

Sarah Williams 48:46

Well I should give it a go.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Sarah Williams 48:49

Well, the challenge is more having the backpack because the backpack is pretty, I've got pretty lightweight equipment because I'd have my tent and sleeping gear and all of that sort of stuff with me. So it wouldn't properly be fast packing. But as long as my food wasn't too heavy, and I kept my water weight down. I'd have to get regular water on the way.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 49:12

Would you consider doing it supported, or do you want to do it unsupported? Do you want to just go back and carry on?

Sarah Williams 49:18

I want to do unsupported? Yeah, I suppose I just don't like having to rely on other people if that makes sense. Where it's just like, I want it to be about me. Just me having to figure this out and having that internal battle, like 'Sarah, if you're hurting and you're in pain, like you should stop, just stop, put your tent up' and then the other Sarah saying 'no! Carry on, you're committed!' Walk the forty miles and then finish, it's like oh, how are you feeling? Check in with myself and then carry on. So that's one thing because I need to go back to Fort William anyway. So yeah, are the dogs barking again?

Sarah Williams 49:24

I don't know what's going on out there! It's like, it's a pack!

Sarah Williams 49:57

They're excited. They're excited about my challenging adventure!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:01

I think they're hounds. They look like...

Sarah Williams 50:06

Yeah, I can hear them now quite, yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:08

I mean, we normally get interruptions with a dog barking, but this is like a pack of them. But yes, I think they are hugely excited about your plans. I think that sounds wonderful. And it's, it's got to be something that you can [sniggers] pick on, it's got to be something that you can just go with and say, 'right, I can do this'. And then at the point where you think, actually, 'you know what, no, I can't do it any more', like, as you said, you can then battle you can negotiate, you can self coach, you can talk yourself through. And I think that's, you know, as we both know, that's where the biggest learning in our lives happens. And we could say that Sarah Williams has done X, Y, Z, and A, B, C, over the last seven years of challenges, what more has she got to challenge herself with? But we have always got things to challenge ourselves haven't we? I think that's what I've learned is that there is never an end to raising that bar and challenging yourself and seeing how far you can go, just stepping just that little bit further beyond what you're capable of each time. And I love that you having completed all these six challenges, when you've done it are still looking to make that challenge stretch a little bit further just to see what you're capable of.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:39

Okay, so this is fabulous. I am kind of thinking that we need to wrap up a little bit now. But there's some things I want to ask you. And one of them in particular is what do you fear? Because Sarah that I know, IS resilient. She is confident. She's a go-getter. She's a, 'I'm gonna do this, I'm a come what may, I'm going to have a go at this, and just see what happens'. So, but are there things that you fear? And if so, how do you deal with them?

Sarah Williams 52:18

It's such a good question. And I do think about this a lot. And I don't know if I necessarily have fears, or it's more like I just have very strong dislikes. So I hate being cold and wet. But it's not, it's not a fear of mine, like because I've been cold and wet and I know I can handle it. I just really dislike it and find it very unpleasant. It's not something that I would ever choose to do, or but like on the Anglesey Coastal Path, it rained for three or four out of the seven days or whatever. What do I fear? I don't know, I don't know that I...? That's not a good answer. Because I don't think there's anything that I necessarily fear. I mean, there's things which I've thought about, but then I choose not think about it anymore, like I'm fearful of being in a situation, like a natural environment situation that I can't control. So being caught in a fire, or being in an avalanche-type situation. Yet, I think it's that in terms of things which you're in the wrong situation at the wrong time. For example, if you were at Everest Base Camp when the when the earthquake happened, I think... but again, I'm not... I'm not... am I fearful of that? Because also, that's something I don't have any control over, so there's no point in being fearful of something I have no control over. I don't think I have a good answer to this question. Because I don't think I'm necessarily fearful of... not of anything. I'm sure I am, like fear. But no, sorry.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 53:50

That's okay. I think actually what you've said, Sarah makes a lot of sense. Because it might be that you're not fearful. What you're doing, you've reframed what would be fear for other people, you've reframed it as something else. And so you ignore it, or if you can't change it, because, for example, some people might not choose to travel to a country where earthquakes happen a lot, because they don't want to get caught up in an earthquake. But, you know, if you're going to do that, you know, you might end up not going to Japan or San Francisco, for example, because there are records of many earthquakes there. But you're saying, well, actually, it's not in my control. So therefore, I don't worry about it. So your reframing of that fear means that it's no longer a fear.

Sarah Williams 54:43

I think that's pretty accurate.

Sarah Williams 54:45

Yeah. Yeah. Because there are situations that you can end up in which is just bad timing. You're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Like when I was, we were talking about this the other day, actually, when when I was 20, I was over in New York before the Twin Towers. So I was actually right opposite the buildings when they came down. I was in New Jersey, and I was meant to be flying out on the 12th of September, and couldn't actually get in contact with my... because all the phone lines were down... wasn't able to connect with my parents. I was stuck in the New Jersey side. What do we do? I think I was too young to really understand it. But that's wrong time wrong place like and you've got no control over that. You've got the only thing you can control is your actions maybe around that situation and how you respond to the situation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 54:45

Yeah,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:36

Sounds to me, like you've got a good toolbox, you've got everything, all the equipment you need in there to handle what life throws at you. And I think that's really healthy.

Sarah Williams 55:48

Oh, I hope so.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 55:49

Yeah, yeah, no, it's amazing. Okay, so the final question, and this is the question that I ask everybody, Sarah, is, do you have a HeadRightOut moment? I'm collecting moments, I'm collecting scenarios or situations where you've been in that place where you've really had to step out your comfort zone. It might not have been something that you were frightened of necessarily. But have you had to step out of your comfort zone are you able to recall and retell that for us, for the benefit of our listeners?

Sarah Williams 56:25

Yeah, I think one of the... so when I first started with Tough Girl Challenges, I wanted to launch myself onto the adventure scene, and one of the ways to do that is to take on this big scary physical challenge. And like I've mentioned before, you know, I'd run multiple marathons before. I'd run London Marathon like five times, so I knew that 26.2 miles was massively inside my my comfort zone, but running further than that, and running multiple back-to-back marathons and across the Sahara Desert was something which was so far outside my comfort zone. That you know, it scared me. I got the butterflies in my stomach, but my HeadRightOut moment was how I messed up. So the first time round, I was meant to do this in 2015. And I ended up overtraining, chronic fatigue, bed-bound, my hair was falling out, I had severe acne on my face and my shoulders, my weight was dropping, my left eye was deteriorating, like I'd had like a panic attack. There's a lot going on health-wise, and I was still thinking I'd be able to go ahead and do this race. You have to get an ECG done, and you have to get a doctor's note and a sign off. And it was literally like, you cannot do this race, like you are not well enough to do this race. But mentally, I'm like, 'yes, I can!'. But I couldn't, physically I was, I was exhausted. If I brushed my teeth. That was a massive achievement for the whole day. I would go downstairs to eat dinner with my sunglasses on because it was too bright. I would literally go down, eat food, get up back to bed, and I was done. But for me, the HeadRightOut moment was was once I was better, living with this fear that if I pushed myself physically too hard, that I was going to revert back to that space where I was. And that scared me. That worried me, because I'd never wanted to return to feeling that ill, that tired and that demotivated, and that rundown. And I postponed the race for a year, and luckily I had insurance, so that was all good.

Sarah Williams 58:16

But going for the race again, for me, it changed in my head, the space where I wanted to be, it wasn't about finishing the race. For me, it was actually just getting to the start line. Just getting to the start line, fit, strong and healthy. And that was a key moment, just getting to the start line. And then I just enjoyed myself for the race and we had a brilliant time and loved it. And I you know, I was in my element running in the sunshine and the heat, but it was also finishing the race and getting the medal round around my neck that was another 'drawing a line in the sand' moment. Whereas I think I've proven to myself, well Sarah, you stepped outside your comfort zone. You headed out there. You've got yourself in that mental space where you COULD do it. You did push your body, you pushed your body hard. You ran multiple marathons, you ran that fifty-two miles in a day, and actually you're not broken. You're still fit, you're still strong. And actually this is your new starting point. This is your new life that you want to build, you CAN do big physical challenges. And so I think those were really probably those two moments like that first initial failure almost knowing how to step up again to put myself back in the same situation and beat the feeling that scared and worried about what if I do revert back... and then not reverting back and accepting that actually I can do this and being just really proud of myself, and just thinking yeah, you do you know what, I've done really well in this situation and that this is my (as cheesy as it sounds), this is my new life. This is my new way of living and it's just exciting and wonderful and joyful and yay!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 59:59

It sounds pivotal, absolutely pivotal, that moment. And I think what I've learned over the years now, particularly in teaching is that those moments of I don't like saying 'failure', but those moments of where things didn't go as we planned, are such massive learning stages. And so many women and girls don't want to face those, they don't want to be in touch with that failure side, that they don't want to feel like it's all gone wrong. But those are the most important times. And what you've just recounted to us is that that is a building block for success. And so many times, we have tried to do something and it's not gone the way we wanted it to, we have then just gradually built up to a place where we can because we've then got the knowledge. And you had the knowledge about your body and what you were capable of. And yeah, what you knew you shouldn't be doing with overtraining is, yeah, is an amazing story. And I love that story of your the Marathon des Sables training, first time around, and second time around. So thank you, thank you so much for sharing that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:10

Well, Sarah, we've come to the end of our conversation. I'm sure...

Sarah Williams 1:01:16

Noooo! Let's keep on talking!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:01:17

We probably will after this... I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of women listening to this that would love to know, if they don't already know you, where they can find out more about you. Where should they go?

Sarah Williams 1:01:29

Oh, please go visit toughgirlchallenges.com. It is basically the main central hub. There is more information about me and my different challenges. But it's also like Zoe mentioned before, it lists this library and this resource of incredible women and their stories. And it's broken down by year, but just scroll through and you will find the cyclists and runners and sailors and oh, I've tried to get... who else... rugby players and boxers and kick boxers, and athletes, and Olympians, and grandmas, and just incredible women. So you know, have a look through their stories. But if you visit toughgirlchallenges.com, all of the information is there. New episodes of the podcast go live every Tuesday and Thursday at 7 am, UK time. So you can follow me on Instagram @ToughGirlChallenges. You will literally be bombarded with amazing women doing awesome challenges. So if you're needing that little bump, that little added extra inspiration and motivation, then you can find it on the Tough Girl Podcast. It's all free to listen to. So there's probably over 450-470 odd episodes now, out there, so...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:02:32

Amazing

Sarah Williams 1:02:33

That's a lot of me... a lot of me... a lot of my voice... a lot of my content...

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:02:36

...and a lot of other people as well. And it is fabulous. And this is my opportunity to say thank you to you, Sarah for starting me off on my podcast journey because you introduced me to listening to podcasts. You then introduced me to speaking on podcasts, when you invited me to come and be a guest on the Tough Girl Podcast back in 2017, I think that was, and then again a couple of years later. And then you kept encouraging me and you know, just sowing that seed that I could do this, myself. You know, you should start a podcast, you should. And you just kept telling me this. And eventually it's like 'yes, I've got to do this'. So thank you, Sarah. Yes, I've got you to thank.

Sarah Williams 1:03:20

Well, no, thank you and a massive well done for starting your podcast. I'm so proud of you. I would just say always remember, I ran that workshop in 2018. And I remember hearing you speak for the first time and I was literally just blown away by your story and your voice and your storytelling. And even then I was thinking you have to start a podcast!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:03:38

Awww bless you. Thank you. Well, Sarah Williams, thank you so much for coming on the HeadRightOut Podcast. (I nearly said the Tough Girl Podcast!) And have a very, very happy birthday on Friday. Happy 40th. Welcome to midlife! You are going to absolutely smash it. I know.

Sarah Williams 1:04:01

Oh, thank you so much. It's been awesome chatting to you and just so much fun and bring on midlife, like Oh My God, I'm excited!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:04:08

Yeah, fabulous!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:04:16

My goodness, I hope you enjoyed that episode. As much as I did it. We had such a blast talking. And when Sarah and I get together, we always chat a lot. And yeah, it just felt so fulfilling and so rich to be able to go over some of those things with her. Now, apologies for the sound quality. This is the nature of living on a narrowboat. We do get disturbances from time to time, which we can't help. Unfortunately, I also have a mobile router, which means that my Wi-Fi is mobile, it's not connected, you know hardwired in so occasionally it does dip in and out. I'd hoped that it was going to be a little bit stronger than that, that particular day. I'm now recording in a room, in a house, so I've moved location to do this little recording. And unfortunately, we have got a different sound quality again, because it's echoing I'm trying to avoid that happening. But we're here for a few weeks now. So I need to obviously work on trying to get that particular sound ambience right in here.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:05:22

So my takeaways from that recording, I find Sarah's willingness to try new things and her honesty about why she isn't fearful of doing new stuff to be truly thought provoking. I think the key there is that she may feel fear or she might be uncertain about doing stuff, but she knows how to deal with it, instead of closing the door on a potential opportunity. And that's what I love and why I've been advocating the Tough Girl Podcast for so long now. I just find that my inspiration tank gets refuelled so many times by the Tough Girl Podcast. So why wouldn't I want to shout about it, and, of course the lovely Sarah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:06:06

So the next two episodes of the HeadRightOut Podcast will be with Helen Jenkins, who is the founder of Blorenge SUP, here in South Wales. That's a smashing little episode. And we've also got Cherry Hamrick, who is an uber adventurer, a 73-year old who has been walking every day now for hundreds, and I mean literally hundreds of days. So I hope you will join us for that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:06:32

Don't forget to hit the follow button or subscribe in whichever podcast app you are listening to this to. I would love for you to share the podcast with a friend to help us grow. And as we were talking about multi-day hikes today with Sarah, if you are thinking about going off on a multi-day hike yourself, I would love to recommend for you to head over... see what I did there... to the HeadRightOut website where you can download a free guide from me called Packing For a Multi-Day Hike. I list in there, all the things that I carry when I go off on my own long-distance adventures, and there is a kit list, with all of the weights of the items as well. Okay, hopefully you will find that useful.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:07:17

So we're going to finish with a quote from Sarah from the episode that you've just listened to. This is my takeaway quote, which I just resonate with 100%. "Go on a long distance walk. Be alone. Know that you can survive and get through it. It's so empowering. And that's how you build that confidence. Knowing you can go out there and look after yourself. You've got the tools and the skills to do it."

Zoe Langley-Wathen 1:07:50

Amen. Hallelujah. 100%, thank you Sarah Williams. Okay, well, that's it from me for this episode. Thank you for tuning in and listening to the HeadRightOut Podcast. And I hope to see you next time. Take care. HeadRightOut Hugs to you all.
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Live Your Bucket List: Super Powers and Angry Man on the South West Coast Path - 002: Julia Goodfellow-Smith
17 sep 2021· HeadRightOut
Author, Julia Goodfellow-Smith talks about her need to adventure, and how it was spurred on by a personal health scare and the death of her mother. We chat about why it took her 25 years to realise that there were many things on her bucket list. One in particular that really needed conquering, she discovered she could actually do it. The resilience and positivity of this woman is incredible. Julia shares insights about our superpowers and how we can harness them to use to our advantage.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 00:20

Well, hello lovely people! Welcome to the HeadRightOut podcast. In today's episode, I'm going to be talking to Julia Goodfellow-Smith, and we're going to be talking about her need to adventure, and how it was spurred on by the death of her mother just before retirement, and a personal health scare. And we discuss how it took her 25 years to realise that there were many things on her bucket list. But one thing in particular that she really needed to conquer, and that she could actually do it. My goodness me the resilience of this woman is incredible. And we talk about our superpowers and how we should harness them to use to our advantage. And for me, I could really see a direct link with work ethics and routine and just think about how you operate in your own work life. I'm pretty certain you'll find your superpowers there, lurking somewhere. So Julia recently published a book and we're going to talk about her book as well. So without further ado, I am going to launch into our conversation to HeadRightOut.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 01:37

Well, hello everybody, and welcome to the HeadRightOut podcast. Today is the 7th of July 2021, and I have with me today a very special lady. Her name is Julia Goodfellow-Smith, and she is going to talk to us, all about making your dreams a reality. So there's some very exciting things that she has been up to of late, so I'm going to just read you a little bit about Julia and what she's what she's been doing. So Julia Goodfellow-Smith is an ordinary person who is doing something extraordinary. Living her bucket list, she would like to help others do the same, which is why she has written this book. She has held a variety of management and consultancy roles in a range of sectors, including conservation, volunteering, banking, and construction. She is currently focusing her attention on adventure, writing, and presenting. Julia lives close to the Malvern Hills with her husband, Mike. She spends a lot of time either wandering on the hills or working in their small woodland nearby. She is a member of the Women's Institute and Toastmasters International, a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, and a senator of Junior Chamber International JCI.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 02:53

Wow. That is amazing. So, Julia, thank you. Thank you so much for agreeing to come on the podcast that is quite a list of things that you've been up to there, and that you have attached to your name? Where do we start? I think before I just dip in and allow you to tease out some of that I would just like to start with a quote from your book. And I believe it might even be the first quote. It's on page nine of your book. And this just absolutely resonated with me, because I did get a pre-copy to read for Julia. So it says "life is to be lived as a magnificent adventure, or not at all". And wow. Was that...? I didn't actually write down who wrote that quote. I think it was... it was a lady.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 03:44

It was Helen Keller.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:45

Helen Keller. Yes, I was. I was about to say Helena Bonham-Carter but I know that's not right!

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 03:50

No that's not quite right.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 03:51

No it's not is it?!

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 03:52

So? Well? Yeah. I mean, that just absolutely sat with me perfectly. Because that's that's what I'm about. So where did this come from this need to adventure and this realisation that if life is about adventure, you've got to just grab it. What was that all about?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 04:09

Well, there are two things that have happened to me that have had a big impact on my desire to adventure. The first happened quite a long time ago now - twenty years ago, and it was my mum, she died from cancer at a very early age, she was only 59. And I was in my thirties. And I thought to myself, I can't wait for retirement to have adventures, because she died six months before she retired. So that got me really thinking about how I was spending my life and what I was doing for work and things like that. And my life did change radically after that moment, but more recently, I had a bit of a health scare. I know it's a bit of a cliche, but I was told that I had a lung condition. That means that as I get older, I'll be more susceptible to respiratory disease when I found that out, the words that I heard were actually, "if you want to have adventure, you better go and do it now, while you can". So, I took that to heart and decided that having a long commute into Birmingham to a job that I really wasn't enjoying that much, was not the best way to spend my life. And I thought about what I could do next, that would be more adventurous. And I made a list of all the jobs that I could do. And I got a bit stuck on the word adventurer, which sounds quite ridiculous to me, even now. But that was all I wanted to do. I wanted to go out and have adventures. So that was really what kick-started it in the more recent past.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 05:40

Wow, yeah, I totally get that. I'm so sorry that you lost your mum so young. That was a really significant moment for you, and obviously very painful. But it's amazing, isn't it how, something like that, then filters through into our decision-making and our choices later on in life. And we start realizing the connection when we're faced with our own potential mortality, or as in your case, your health scare. I think my big decision started to come to fruition when I lost my dad. And so it's a very similar situation in that I started thinking, 'okay, life is too short, I really got to think about doing those things now before age starts creeping in'.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:27

But Wow. Okay, so the word adventure just stuck with you. How did that then... because that's obviously a seed that's been sown. How did that then start growing and blossoming and then eventually fruiting? What happened there?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 06:44

Well, I started looking online, at how to become an adventurer. It's a great search term,

Zoe Langley-Wathen 06:56

Great for SEO!

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 07:00

And I came across a few websites, one of which was Bex Band who runs Love Her Wild.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 07:05

Ah yes, I know Bex.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 07:06

And she gives an awful lot of information on her website about how she became an adventurer. And it made me realise that it is actually possible to do this on a full-time basis. So I used that really as an encouragement to carry on. And I started thinking about, okay, the first thing you need to do if you think you want to be an adventurer is go out and have some adventures, of course. So I started thinking about what I wanted to do, what was the first thing on my list? And the first thing that came to mind, and that stayed really strongly on the list for me was walking the South West Coast Path. I'd read a book when I was 25 or so, so about 25 years ago, called 500 Mile Walkies by Mark Wallington, and it was a funny book. He walked around the South West Coast Path with his dog. And ever since reading that, I thought, well, that's something I'd like to do one day, so it had been on my bucket list for 25 years and I thought it was about time that I actually did it. So I decided that that was going to be my first adventure walking the South West Coast Path. And then of course, Coronavirus hit, which meant that I couldn't walk the South West Coast Path when I'd planned to.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 08:16

Wow. Yeah, so I've got to go back to Mark Wallington. I've read Mark Wallington's 500 Mile Walkies as well. And it was after I discovered the South West Coast Path, because I grew up around in that area. But yes, I totally get that. It was a laugh-out-loud book. I mean, it's the sort of book you don't read on the train for fear of snorting. It just had me in stitches, and actually for a while he lived in Swanage in Dorset. I think he was working up in London. But yeah, I think he was either from Swanage, or he lived in Swanage for a while. But yeah, great book. Absolutely loved that. I managed to pick up a couple of copies of his other books. Actually, it was 500 Mile Walkies. And it was a few books together in one book, and I found it in a charity shop in Sherborne. It had been signed by him and stamped with Boogie's paw print. Oh, this is this is amazing. Yes. So I have that and it's precious to me.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 09:18

Wow. So you had that moment of 'okay, this is going on my bucket list'. You said that was about 25 years ago.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 09:26

Yep.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 09:26

This has taken you ages to get to the point where you then really thought, Okay, I'm going to go and do it. I mean, I was 15 years and I thought that was a long time before going off, but 25 years!

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 09:40

Well, there are a few factors involved in that. There are a number that I can identify clearly. So the first one is the fact that I had done another long distance walk in the past. When I was twenty, I walked the Yorkshire Wolds Way, and I had an awful week. Well, I was young and inexperienced. My pack was heavy, my hips hurt constantly, it rained, I had a new waterproof, that turned out not to be. So I was wet all week, I'd bought some new fuel for my stove that didn't actually heat the water up. So the dried food that should have had boiling water on it to heat up, never really cooked properly. And it was just a miserable, miserable week. I finished the walk because I'm a pretty determined person, but it really put me off long distance walking. I thought that's it. So even reading 500 Mile Walkies, and really wanting to walk the South West Coast Path, I still had that in the back of my mind that the pain, the discomfort of that walk, back when I was twenty.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 10:48

So you walked that path before you read the book?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 10:52

Yes, yeah. So that was one of the factors. Another factor is at the South West Coast Path is 630 miles long. So I thought it's going to take a long time to walk it. So therefore I was going to need to take two months off work to walk it. And of course, I was completely wrong with that assumption. When you think about these things more closely, it's easy to find solutions to the problems.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 11:16

So when I was walking, I met somebody called Artie, who I walked with for a while. And he's now walked the South West Coast Path, I think he's just finished his twenty-fourth walk of the South West Coast Path. And he has been walking it every year. He started off when he was working. And he did it in two week chunks. So every two years, he walked the whole of the path. And I've met various other people who've done it over seven years, a week at a time on leave. And if I'd have thought about it as well, you can run it in 12 days. So I could have run it in one year, if I'd have wanted to. Obviously, I would have had to have trained quite hard to do that. But it would have been possible. So this idea of not having the time to do it was a load of nonsense. But it was just something that I accepted as a belief. And that's why one of the things that I talk about in my book, are these sorts of obstacles to achieving your bucket list that you just assume are obstacles. But when you think about it really well and apply yourself to the problem, you can often find solutions. That means that, you know I could have walked the South West Coast Path twenty years ago and only had it on my bucket list for five years. And I could have walked it four or five times in between quite easily, or walked the Wales Coast Path as well, or what have you. So I'm kicking myself for having had that thought. But there it is. That's how it was.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:36

You do don't you? We're all guilty of putting up barriers and you know, I'm definitely a barrier lady. I put up so many barriers and and I now realise I've got to face my fears more. But you know, imposter syndrome is a big thing.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 12:51

I've got to just digress here. I am actually mopping up tears. I don't know if you're aware of this, but I know Artie, did you know that? Have I mentioned him before? I'm not sure.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 13:04

I found out recently.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 13:06

Okay, yeah, okay. Right. So, this is so bizarre Julia, but I was sat reading your book; I was sat on the front of the boat in the sunshine a couple of weeks ago, and I'm partway through, and suddenly you mentioned Arthur. And it's like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, and you know it when you just want to like squeal out loud. I mean, I was I was squealing but trying to do it quietly because I live on a boat for those people that don't know that. And you know, there are people walking past on the towpath. And as I read on, you talk more and more about Artie and it's like, oh my goodness. Ten years ago, I met Arthur, funnily on the South West Coast Path.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 13:46

Oh, really?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 13:47

Yes. He is a legend. You're right. And you talk about him in your book as being a legend. He definitely is. I when I was walking the Wales Coast Path, I met a group of people who said, Oh, yeah, we met this great guy, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, and his name was Artie. I was like, yeah, I know exactly who they were talking about straightaway. Yeah, and actually, it was down to Artie that I met Mike. And so really, if it wasn't for for him, Mike and I probably may never have met... or we might have done you know what it's like on the coast path. You know, there are a few people walking in the same direction. At some point you are going to meet. Yeah, Artie introduced us. And yeah, he was at our wedding five years ago.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 14:25

Fabulous.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:26

And it's actually Artie's birthday today!

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 14:29

Oh, is it!? Happy Birthday, Artie!

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:33

I think he's either. I can't remember if he's 73 or 74. But yes, he is quite the guy and he's on number 24. He's not quite finished the South West Coast Path yet. But he's still on it. And the last time I spoke to him...

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 14:48

Yeah, he's he's sending me messages periodically telling me how he's getting on.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 14:52

Yeah, and I sent him because you came to visit me on the boat a few weeks ago, I sent him a photograph. And I said, do you know this woman? "Oh yes that's Julia." Yes, it's like being in teaching - we've always said, you know, it's such small circles, but it's the same with walking and adventuring. Long-distance hiking, ever-decreasing circles, you know somebody who knows somebody, who knows somebody. It's such a wonderful community, and they always support you. And we learn from one another. And I think that's, that's the beauty of it isn't it? You know, you meet someone like Arthur, who's been walking the path for eons, and has got so much experience, and yet, he will learn from us as much as we learn from him, you know, because we've discovered new kit perhaps, or lighter weight stuff that maybe he hasn't discovered or different routes. It's just such a wonderfully full and exciting community and experience, to me. T

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 15:57

This is what I've been surprised about, actually. I had no idea before I set off on the South West Coast Path and joined various Facebook groups, and what have you as well, just what a community there is and how willing people are to help you. If you ask about a piece of kit, or what to do about your blisters, or which tent to buy or boots, or whatever it is that you need to know about. There's somebody there who's willing to help you learn and make the most of your experience. And when I met Artie on the path, I'd already reached what was supposed to be my end point for the day, and I was looking for somewhere to camp. It would have been my first night wild camping. And I just sensed that there was somebody behind me on the path. And I turned around and thought, okay, I'll just stop and be sociable. And we actually walked together for three and a half hours. And Artie told me all sorts of useful things about long-distance hiking, because I was I was new to the path. And he really helped me out giving me lots of hints and tips. And in fact, I walked with a friend a few days after I've met him, and she laughed. She said, I should write a book called 'Arthur Says'.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 17:00

Yeah, oh, he would absolutely love that. He'd be totally made up that you'd do that. So is that going to be the next book? Maybe? Oh, wow. So actually, that leads quite nicely into me asking about what was your greatest learning from all of this? And because I mean, obviously, you've learned from other people you've learned from yourself, and your own experiences. But what was your greatest learning practically? And then perhaps, what was your greatest learning about yourself internally?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 17:34

Okay, so if I'm going to start with the second one, if that's all right, so that's the greatest thing that I've learned about myself is that I can do things on my own and enjoy doing them on my own, I really enjoy doing. I have been married to my husband for eleven years now. He's fabulous, and I love him very much indeed. He's also done an awful lot more camping and hiking and things like that than me. So whenever we go away, he always takes charge. And that's absolutely fine. I've, been perfectly happy with that. And then I realised that I needed to learn how to do that for myself. So I suppose this comes to the practical as well, I needed to learn how to wild camp by myself, I needed to just be that much more confident that I could make decisions and do things on my own without always referring to him. Because we've done all of these things together. He's always been there. And he's so much more experienced than me. And it made sense to ask him everything.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 18:35

Of course.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 18:36

So I had to become more self-reliant, and just realise that I can do these things on my own and when I don't have somebody there to ask, I can just get on with it, and make decisions and do things on my own, which was a bit of a revelation. It sounds a bit sad. But that's, that's the way that's the way it is.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 18:53

It's so true for a lot of people though isn't it? I don't think it's sad. I think it's the way we're conditioned anyway - you know - to believe that our male counterparts are far stronger than us, and they're there to look after us. And a lot of women are happy with that. And that's okay. It's not, it's not wrong, if that's okay for them. Where it becomes an issue is where it's, I guess, forced upon us. And it's like, "No, you can't do that, because you're a woman". And, "you need me to look after you". It clearly isn't like that with you and Mike and you found that you are stronger.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 19:28

I am beginning to think actually that allowing ourselves to be looked after makes us weaker. So obviously, in a in a marriage or in any relationship, you look after each other. And that's the idea. And that's a good thing. As long as it's evenly balanced. I think if we allow ourselves to be looked after, because we're women, and because men think they should be looking after us. That reduces our skill levels. It reduces our confidence. And I'd let that happen. And I was perfectly happy letting that happen. And I really don't think I should have been. So this is not something that I'd really thought about terribly much before walking the South West Coast Path. But I walked for a while with somebody as well who is an older man who thought that he should walk with me because I needed a man to look after me, which I hadn't quite realised until I was on the path. And about a day into walking together, he turned around. And he said, Today, you don't need me to look after you do. You know? Exactly. It was a total revelation to him. That here was a woman who didn't need looking after.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 20:39

Oh wow, go Julia! Yeah. Fabulous. So he he possibly saw you as this vulnerable novice backpacker. And then yeah, I'm so glad that you actually turned that on its head.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 20:57

And he was no more experienced than me either. Just a man.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:02

No way!

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 21:02

He wasn't an experienced backpacker, particularly.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:05

That is hilarious! So it was just the male-female thing.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 21:09

It was just the male-female thing. And I had no idea really that people felt like that. But that's what made me start thinking about the whole nature of my relationship with Mike helping me and me being happy to be helped and looked after realising that that, I think does make me weaker.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 21:28

Yes, I think you're right. There's two things I want to mention there. So I had a chat. I had a walk and a chat actually, a few weeks ago with the lovely Ursula Martin, who's just walked across Europe, and she was coming back to Wales. She landed in Llanidloes, a couple of weeks ago, and two days before she finished, I was walking up over the Radnor hills with her and had a conversation about my fear of heights and how I was crag-fast on the side of Pen-y-Ghent, on the Pennine Way. And Mike was there, he knew not to say, "you'll be fine, you'll be fine", because I'd have probably growled at him at that point. But instead he was he was above me looking down and just saying, "okay, stick your hand there. Put one hand there. There's a foothold there." And he just talked me through the route up. And she said, "What would you have done if he wasn't there?" Yeah, okay, I probably would have just got on and done it because he was there. I think I automatically switched into, okay, I need help now. I mean, the wind was blowing, it was raining, and I was very high up, but it was a very short scramble. I mean, really, it's not, it's not hard by any means. But for me, it felt hard. So yeah, that that was the first thing I just wanted to mention on that. And it was a very similar situation.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 22:44

But also in your book in Live Your Bucket List, you talk about superpowers. And I think we've all got superpowers that we may or may not know that we have. And I just wondered if you'd like to talk about superpowers, because that was just like, a light bulb moment when I read that, and, and also a 'hallelujah'! moment, like, thank you for actually putting this in print. So yes, I'm going to let you explain that.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 23:12

Okay, well, when I was planning to walk the South West Coast Path I planned, so I trained, I found out about tents. I practiced wild camping near home, so that Mike could rescue me going back to our previous conversation if necessary, which wasn't. But I practiced, I planned I tested kit, I made sure that everything was going to work. And it was Mike actually who said to me, "Julia, you just plan so well". And it made me realise that planning is one of my superpowers. It's something that I do really well. And I don't really think about this. It's just what I do. And I think so we all have superpowers, and we can use them to our advantage. It's not always easy, I think to identify them. Because you have to admit to yourself that you're good at something. And we're not always very good at that are we?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:02

No.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 24:04

When I think finding our weaknesses and know what our weaknesses are, we're much better at. But if we have a really good think about what our superpowers are, then we can use those to our advantage. And for me, it was planning and I could use that to my advantage on the walk. For you, it may well be something different. So what's your superpower, Zoe?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 24:21

What is my superpower? I think I'm a good planner as well. Fifteen years of planning in teaching. Yeah, it's a superpower. But I think also for me, I've started to realise that it can also be a downfall. So I think there's a way of... it's like anything, even if it's good for you, let's say a superfood, a superfood may be good for you. But if you eat a few blueberries, or goji berries, they might be great for you in antioxidants are whatever they give you. But if you eat, I don't know, let's say two kilos of them, you're gonna be pretty poorly. It's not going to be great for you. So I think it's a similar thing. So with planning for a while there, I tended to over-plan, and I think in over-planning, I learned that actually you don't then have the freedom and the flexibility to just allow things to happen organically, just to go with the flow. So yes, I learned that quite early on. So I still do plan and I'm very, very on it when it comes to weight. I learned that on the South West Coast Path. I am not carrying eighteen kilos of backpack ever again. So now it's this competition between Mike and I to try and carry the lightest pack. So yeah, anywhere between nine and twelve kilos, nine kilos base weight that's without food and water..

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 25:42

You know what?

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:43

Go on.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 25:44

I heard Paddy Dillon talk recently. He's the man who wrote the Cicerone guide to the South West Coast Path.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:49

Yes.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 25:49

And he was saying that the base weight of his backpack is four and a half kilos.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:54

That's amazing

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 25:55

That it looks like a day pack. People don't realise he's backpacking.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 25:58

That's insane! I love that. I need to hear more about what he's carrying. And I'm sure, yeah, and I'm sure there's things in in my pack that I still probably don't need. I mean, I'm always of the belief that everything or as much as possible has to have two uses minimum. That's the key. But you know, there's obviously some things that can't have that. But yeah, very, very interesting. I was going to ask you something, then it's completely gone out of my head. I kind of just went off on a tangent there.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 26:26

Sorry, I've thrown you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 26:27

No, no, no, that's, that's, that's fine. Yes. Because I was just thinking, What's my superpower?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 26:34

I agree with you completely on the planning, and I can over-plan as well. Yes, sometimes you just have to get on with it as well.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 26:41

I know what I was going to mention to you. You certainly mentioned it in your book. And I think you've alluded to it in our conversation, but you talk about in your book about being an introvert. And this has actually come back to me time and time again, just in the last few months on podcasts and books I've been reading and your own book. And I've realised that, actually, I am an introvert too. And I never knew that. I mean, I would have said, 'No, I'm the most social person out there, and how could I possibly be an introvert', but I definitely recharge and gain my energy from being on my own. Absolutely, definitely. So that's why when I come home from a day in a school supply teaching, I almost need to go and sit in a darkened room for two hours. It's like, my head buzzing. And then I'm fine after that. Yes. So this is interesting, from my point of view, to hear how you discovered that you were an introvert. And if you found it difficult talking to people whilst you were on the path, or if you are a social bird... or you know what, what is it that... social butterfly, not social bird! Just realised. We'll leave it in, it's fine. So just I'm wondering how you handled that, and how you discovered it Really?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 27:55

Well, I've really discovered it during lockdown. Because I've always been, I am a sociable person. I join clubs, I see lots of people, we have parties. But at our parties, I'm going to be the one in the kitchen. Even though I'm surrounded by my friends. I'm the one in the kitchen hiding away from everybody just talking to one person at once. It was during lockdown when all of that pressure I suppose to be with other people disappeared. So I'd been working in an open plan office, which meant that all day every day I was with other people, and commuting on a train with other people there. And the absolute relief when I could work from home, I realised how tiring it was spending all of that time with other people. And it really made me realise that I get my energy from being by myself. And when I'm with other people, I suppose I've always known this, but I've not really related it to introversion. When I'm with other people, I need time to recuperate. I go away for weekends with friends, for example. And by Sunday morning, that's enough. So I've had a lovely Saturday seeing people that that I love, that I enjoy being with. But by Sunday morning, I need time on my own again, I need to have that space. And that's what introversion is for me. On the path, well, always I find it difficult to talk to people or to strike up conversation. And I find it stressful talking to people as well. But I decided before going onto the path that I would talk to as many people as I possibly could and just see where it led me. And it was a fantastic experience. It was sometimes a little bit stressful, of course, for all of those reasons that I've said already. But the relationships that you build, even with people that you just spend five minutes with, that social interaction really gives you a boost and it helps you along your way.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 29:55

Well, I'll give you an example. I'll give you the example of Maggie who I write about in my book. I should say Maggie and Ian, but it was Maggie who started the conversation. I was at Starcross, I just crossed the river at Exeter, the River Exe, and again, I was beyond my end point for the day, my planned end point. But I had another three miles to walk to a campsite because my accommodation had fallen through. I was tired, because mentally I should have finished in Exeter, and I had another three miles to go. So I was tired. I was a bit fed up, feeling sorry for myself, got off the ferry at Starcross, and Maggie said, "Oh, how far are you going?" and started up this conversation with me. And at the time, I just thought, 'I just don't want to do this now'. Because it is difficult for me to talk to people. But within about five minutes, I'd warmed up to the conversation. And we walked together for almost the whole of the three miles because they lived near the campsite that I was going to. And it turns out that Maggie and Ian are long-distance walkers as well. We had a fabulous conversation, and Maggie particularly has stayed in touch with me through the whole of the rest of the walk. She puts encouraging posts on Facebook. She's always encouraging me on. So it's really valuable. Just talking to people, even if you feel a little bit uncomfortable doing it, you never know where that wonderful person is going to come from, who really gives you a boost. And her timing has been perfect all the way through the process. That just when I'm beginning to feel a bit tired and a bit low, she pops up and says how well how well I'm doing. And it's just fabulous.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 31:32

So this is like your guardian angel arriving, isn't it? What an opportunity and you could have missed that. So did you have any strategies then to, other than that mantra in your head, 'I have got to talk to as many people as possible on the path', did you actually have any strategies that you coached yourself through? When you could see somebody coming? You're thinking, Okay, I've got to talk to this person, I got to talk to this person. What did you actually do or say to yourself?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 31:59

Well, that's really interesting, because having said I'm a really good planner, I didn't have a plan in place. Just a matter of 'Julia, start a conversation'.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:07

Yup.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 32:08

And often it was how far are you walking? I mean, that's on the path. That's a really easy starter, particularly if somebody is wearing a pack.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:16

Yes.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 32:17

Because you can tell that they're going a decent distance. They're not just out for the day. It's funny, "how far are you walking?" is always a good one.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 32:25

It's funny. We've got a saying now, Mike and I and... it's Mike and I and Artie and Steve, who was another guy that we met at the halfway point, at Porthallow, with his, now wife. And we had this thing that we would say to people that were all dressed up, you know, looking like they were going the distances. "Are you going all the way?" In a strange accent? I think it's like a blend of Arty and I don't know, a Scotsman. But yeah, it was, "are you going all the way?" And now even when we're walking, like we could just be walking up over the hills, or I could be sat on the boat, and we see people with huge packs walking along the canal, because they may be walking Newport to Brecon and I just have this in my head, I just want to go up to them and say "are you going all the way?!"

Zoe Langley-Wathen 33:13

But no, that's really great to hear you found ways around that. Okay, so we've talked about you using your superpowers to sidestep your Achilles heel. So we've had various, various one of those, as I do, too, were there ever any contingency plans that you had, because you've planned a few contingency plans, I know. But did you ever have any that didn't actually back you in the way that you had hoped? And did you ever have a plan C? I know you had a plan B.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 33:45

I tend to have layers of plans. So I'm not sure whether I'll be able to think of an example. No, that's all right. One of my contingency plans was I carried a tent repair kit around with me. And when my tent broke, my tent repair kit wasn't up to the job. So that's one contingency plan that didn't work. And the reason for that, I think was the nature of the way that my tent broke.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 34:14

Would you like to share that experience? I know it's it's quite a highlight in your book, and I know you possibly don't want to give away any spoilers, but it was quite an experience that not many people would expect to encounter.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 34:29

Well, it was a surprise because as a lone female hiker, wild camping sometimes, I had thought that my risk on the path my risk of attack would be when I was wild camping on my own on the path. The day that my tent was trashed by somebody else was actually in a holiday park. So I had thought that I was completely safe, totally safe space. I pitched my tent. I went and showered came back went to the bar. It was October by this point, so it was getting dark early, and I thought I'd spend the evening in the bar, have some dinner and just stay warm and in the light for a few hours. So I was sitting in the bar and somebody else who I'd seen earlier actually and had a little chat with, came running into the bar and said, Julia, Julia, somebody is trashing your tent. And I just didn't understand. I really didn't understand. I said, What do you mean, trashing my tent? She said, "there's a man trashing your tent", and she and her husband had seen it happen. And essentially what happened was that this man had taken umbrage about the fact that I've pitched my tent quite close to his caravan. And that and that was purely to keep it out of the wind, but I'd chosen a caravan that didn't have a window overlooking the campsite. So from his caravan, he couldn't see my tent, even though I was quite close. Anyway, he took umbrage at this, and it turns out in the end, and I didn't know this at the time, but he'd grabbed my tent pole, and pulled it, he'd yanked it to try to move the tent. So he broke the pole and pulled it out through the sheath that the pole goes through, which made my tent unusable. my tent repair kit was designed for the tent breaking in the wind. So there was a pole connector, that you could put a broken pole through. But it wasn't really designed for a pole that was broken in the way it was. So it didn't fit through the connector.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 36:27

As it happened, it didn't matter desperately because I was at a caravan park, the staff at the caravan park were just brilliant. And I have to say, I was absolutely surrounded by wonderful people that evening, who looked after me. That was a good time to be looked after. And they put me up in a caravan on a neighbouring caravan park, so that I wasn't anywhere near him, so that I felt safe. And I only had one more days' camping planned on my trip anyway. So it didn't, it wasn't terrible that my tent got broken. But it was quite a shocking experience. And particularly there, where I thought that I would be completely safe.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 37:05

Well, the sickness I felt in my tummy when you told me about that when we met, and when I read about it again in more detail. It was absolute horror. And knowing how precious that tent is to you, as a long-distance walker, that is your lifeline, that keeps you sheltered, keeps you safe. It's your survival. And also you build up a relationship with your tent. And it sounds weird to people that don't know, but you really do. And so yeah, I was horrified to read that. But so how did that leave you afterwards? Has that left feelings of doubt that you can do it again, has it left a negative taste?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 37:44

That's really interesting. Because the next day, I got up, we reported it to the police, I got up and I carried on walking because that's what I was doing. What else was I going to do? And I met some really nice people in the next cove and had a chat with them about something completely different. They'd seen an octopus in a rock pool on the beach there years ago. And so we talked about the octopus, and it was just a wonderful distraction from what was going on in my head about about this man and my tent. A couple of days after what I think of as the attack on my tent by Angry Man, I was walking up Great Hangman, which is the highest point on the path on the South West Coast Path. It was a cloudy day, and it was windy. And there's a cairn at the top. And I was brooding on the attack a little bit, which I think is perfectly reasonable because you need to allow your emotions to go through all of the phases that they need to go through. But I was thinking back to some of the other people that I had met during my adventures this summer. So on that summer, on the Malvern hills. I've met somebody called Julie La, and she blesses litter when she picks it up. And she also blesses the person who threw the litter. Because she says they just don't yet know not to do it. They had they don't understand inside themselves not to do it. So she blesses them. And I thought back to a man called Johnny who I met when I was camping, we'd spent an evening with him telling me his tales of going to India and finding himself and concluding that 'everything is love'. And I thought too about Margot, who I'd also met on the path or seen on the path who believes in the power of karma. And as I got to the top of Great Hangman, I just I literally I sat at the top in the lea of the cairn and I shouted out blessings in the wind to Angry Man. So I figured that it wasn't my tent that was making him angry. There was something else going on in his life, and I would prefer it if that wasn't happening to him in his life, regardless of what he did to me. He was suffering somehow and I would prefer it if he wasn't. So I called out blessings into the wind and I wish that the sun would shine on his face and a gentle wind would blow his back, and that he'd find happiness in life. And I sent those blessings out to him and I willed the wind to take them to him. And to have an impact on him. It's not necessarily that I believe that that will work. But for me, it was an absolute release. And afterwards, I felt no real negative thoughts towards him at all. I really, whenever I meditate, I think about sending blessings about him still, and I think more in terms of hoping that he'll heal rather than what he did to me.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 40:38

I still had a slight little nagging doubt at the back of my mind that when I next got into my tent, I might not find it a safe space. Because one of the things that you alluded to earlier is that you build a relationship with your tent, don't you? This is your safe space. This is where you crawl in at the end of a tiring day. And it's got your stuff exactly where you want it. And it's the thing that keeps you safe. And I was just a little bit concerned that I sent my tent away to be fixed, which actually the Holiday Park owner paid for, which is fantastic.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:09

Wonderful.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 41:09

So my tent is functioning again as a tent, but I hadn't been in it. And I put it up the other day, in preparation for walking Offa's Dyke, which is my next adventure. I put it up just to make sure that everything was working properly after it had been repaired. And I crawled inside and I felt that sense of peace and comfort still going inside it. So I was really pleased that there there are no nagging doubts, I'm perfectly comfortable with going back out there and cracking on with it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 41:37

I am so pleased to hear that. I am so so pleased. And what a poignant moment that time upon Great Hangman, I also had a poignant moment on top of Great Hangman. But perhaps that's one for another day, it was just relating to losing my grandmother the day before. And I had tears, tears up the steps all the way to the top and I threw a stone onto the cairn and I heard a skylark at the same time. So now whenever I hear skylarks, I always think of my grandmother.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 42:07

It's obviously a special place

Zoe Langley-Wathen 42:08

Yeah, it was a very special place. And I was walking up there and floods of tears. And yeah, so reading that and hearing that story is obviously I understand that the specialness of that place, but what a poignant thing, to be able to release all of that energy, that negative energy that you held, because of that attack. Because it's not about the man it's about, it's about you and what you carry around with you. And if you can release that, then you're free of the fear of it happening again. And I think having empathy and compassion and understanding about why that happened, knowing that it wasn't directed at you has a BIG part to play. And I love what you were saying about, remember the lady's name, maybe it was Margot. Can't remember. But anyway, Maggie, that was it. The lady that sends blessings to the people who threw litter.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 42:58

Oh, Julie La, Julie La.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 43:01

Julie La. Yeah, so I have an issue with people who leave dog poo outside the boat. And, even in dog poo bags, they just leave them dotted around like the dog poo fairy is going to come and collect it. So yeah, I obviously need to turn that on its head and think Well, obviously, they just haven't understood yet, why they need to pick it up. And yes, I'm going to work on that. But thank you for sharing it.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 43:29

It might make no difference to them. Who knows it might, but certainly to the person that's feeling that and thinking that it's much better to have that positive thought that's right, and to just get angry about it every time.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 43:42

No, I understand that. It's not a woo-woo thing that you're casting a spell and something magical is going to happen out there. But it's the magical thing that happens within you, isn't it?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 43:52

Yeah, absolutely.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 43:53

That's great. Okay, well, we're coming to the end now Julia, of our conversation, and there's a couple of things that I do want to ask you. You've already answered my question, my next question about what is happening next. You've said you're going off to walk Offa's Dyke. Is that this year or next year?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 44:07

This year. This year.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 44:10

Fabulous. Okay, that's good news.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 44:12

Yeah, yeah. I'll be up on there soon. Yes. Needed to get the book published first. south to north.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 44:21

South to north. So you're going Chepstow to Prestatyn.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 44:23

The way most people do it. Yes, that's right.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 44:25

Yeah. Yeah, I um, I went the opposite way. I started at Prestatyn and walked south. And that was back in 2013 now. But yes, amazing, wonderful, wonderful walk.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 44:35

I think I think it might prove challenging at the end, because I will. I'll want to just continue around the rest of Wales.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 44:41

Yes, well who knows, watch this space there. You'll have to. I'm sure on the couple of hundred miles that you'll be walking you'll have plenty of time to consider whether that's a viable option or not. A couple of hundred miles and then add another 870, then you'll have circumnavigated the whole lot.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 45:03

I do know somebody who did that this year, walked the Wales path, and then decided to just finish it off by going up Offa's Dyke and getting back to the beginning.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 45:09

Wonderful. Yes. Oh wow, yes the Perimeteers is a good good club to be in. And what a wonderful experience as well being able to say that you have walked the whole perimeter of a country.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 45:23

Yeah.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 45:24

I just wondered if you could, bearing in mind that this podcast is called the HeadRightOut podcast. And it's all about encouraging women to step out of their comfort zone and do something that scares them, do something that they perhaps felt that they were previously unable to do. And I wondered if you haven't covered this already, if perhaps you could describe a HeadRightOut Moment for you.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 45:49

Okay. I think the first one that springs to mind is when I was preparing to walk the South West Coast Path, I walked the Worcestershire way. The Worcestershire Way, if you've never done it is the most beautiful footpath. It's just fabulous. It's only thirty-one miles long. And I was using it, as it has a similar ascent to the South West Coast Path. So there's lots of up and down. And it's a short path. And I wanted to practice wild camping, on my own, not too far from home so that it felt safe. So this is me taking things in fairly small steps. My HeadRightOut Moment was when Mike walked with me for the first mile or two on the path and then headed back to the car. And then it was just me, my backpack and my tent, and it was going to be like that for the next two or three days. And I set off. And I just thought,'wow, I hope I can do this'. And then, "of course you can do this. Come on, Julia, you've got this'. And I haven't looked back.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 46:55

And how long ago was that? Julia?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 46:57

That was summer last year.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 46:58

That was last year, last year? Wow. Yeah. I mean, it's really telling, isn't it? Because we've gone through all of these years, wondering if we could ever possibly do things like this. And then when you do finally conquer it. You think, 'why did I wait so long? Of course I can do it, I've just shown myself I can do it.'

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 47:20

Yeah, I'm not sure. I even wondered whether I could I just assumed I couldn't. I just never even crossed my mind that I would be able to hike or camp on my own.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 47:28

Yes. Yes.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 47:30

It didn't even occur to me. And then one day it did.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 47:35

Yeah, I totally understand that. And I think for those fifteen years that I was wanting to walk the South West Coast Path, I think it was, again, it was an assumption for me that I wasn't athletic enough or fit enough. And it was big, strong burly men that did that. Not people like me. You'll have to excuse the noise. We've got boats going by suddenly, suddenly getting dizzy. I deliberately drew the curtain to avoid having people waving at us as well.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:03

Julia, do you mind sharing your age?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 48:06

Not at all. Sorry, I'm looking a bit dubious. Because I have to think about it. I'm fifty-one.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:10

Fifty-one, okay, great. And you do not look 51. But it's not that that comes into it. But Wow. So yeah, so this, this has been a lifetime of perhaps needing to do things then and not realising that you could do them. And now you've discovered that that you are a resilient, strong, capable woman that is capable of so much more.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 48:36

Absolutely. And I can do things on my own and thoroughly love doing things on my own. And I'll survive. Yes, it's so freeing. It's just a wonderful, wonderful feeling. It's liberating.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 48:50

Well, Julia, thank you so much. This has been such an uplifting conversation. And yeah, I've really enjoyed it. And I'm sure the listeners will do too.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 48:59

Thank you Zoe. I hope so, thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 49:00

And now, obviously, that we've got some places that we would love to be able to send the listeners so are there some social media contacts where people can get in touch with you, where they can buy your book, Live Your Bucket List?

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 49:14

Well, it's available on Amazon so you can search Live Your Bucket List, or go to my website, which is juliags.com. So that's it for Goodfellow-Smith, juliags.com and I am juliagsadventure, across social media. So have a look for me, Instagram and Facebook.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 49:36

Brilliant. Well, I will I will be directing everybody there. I'm going to put all of those links in the show notes.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 49:42

Thank you very much.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 49:43

Thank you, Julia. That was an absolutely cracking interview, and yes, I look forward to chatting to you again sometime. But good luck with the Offa's Dyke and with all of your future adventures, and happy HeadRightOut-ing.

Julia Goodfellow-Smith 49:56

Thank you very much, Zoe.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 49:57

Thank you.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 50:06

How wonderful was that? Well, I hope you got so much from that conversation with Julia, because I certainly did. I felt such a strong connection with so many things Julia had said to us, and in particular, the need to rethink the way you see a bad situation. Gosh, she really turned that on its head for me. And that was a real eye opener. It's a positive and healthy approach. It's fabulous. Now, whether you're an experienced adventure or about to plan a first trip, I would seriously recommend that you go and buy Julia's book. It's available on Amazon, and the link will be in the show notes. I absolutely enjoyed it and value the methodical way she that she structured it, I like systems too, just like Julia. Everything was just so well explained, and I loved how she connected each way of organizing and planning for your bucket list dream, how she then related it to a particular story on her South West Coast Path adventure. It wasn't in chronological order. So I really liked that.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:06

Okay, so next week, we have Sarah Williams joining us for a special birthday episode. Is that a special birthday, or a special episode? It's both. So it's a fabulous conversation, and I cannot wait for you to hear it.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 51:30

This is the section where I invite listeners to share a HeadRightOut Moment with me to celebrate with everybody else. Now it can be really hard doing scary stuff. And I understand that. Taking risks and feeling brave is so difficult for some people. But the benefits from having a go are massive. Even if you don't succeed fully in the outcome, the positive impact from having a go at something, even if you haven't succeeded is going to be massive for your mental health. And if you're doing something active, especially in the outdoors, that's great for your body as well. So this week's HeadRightOut Moment has come from Annie. She's on Instagram, TheBotBeyondTheBrainz, that's with a 'Z'. And she contacted me after I requested some HeadRightOut Moments. And this is what she shares.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 52:23

So every November right before seasonal depression hits hard here in Berlin, Germany. I grabbed my bike and cycle off to the sea. It started because of a song I love by Laura Marling, 'I Speak Because I Can', in which she sings she wishes she'd taken her bike out to the sea, but she never did. And seasonal depression makes me feel all kinds of hopeless and well, sad. So I took my bike one Saturday morning at 6 am and went to the sea... 220 kilometres away. I arrived in the dark at around midnight, and could only hear the water. Not see it. But the memories got me through most of the winter. And now, every year, come November, I take my bike up to the sea. It's cold. It's glorious and highly recommendable. Oh, that is just beautiful. Thank you so much Annie.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 53:25

So Annie is a writer and comic artist. She's a climber and an endurance athlete. She's a cyclist, and a scientist. I just checked her out on Instagram. So I suggest if you want to check out more about what Annie is up to, particularly with her cycling, you can head over to Instagram. Her grid is thebotbeyondthebrainzz. That's with a 'z' and I will put a link to that in the show notes too.

Zoe Langley-Wathen 53:50

So we've come to the end of the show. Please join us next time for the HeadRightOut podcast, and I'll look forward to hearing some HeadRightOut Moments from you. Remember, aim to do something that scares you every day. Build your resilience by trying new things, tell yourself you can instead of you can't. And don't forget to hit follow or subscribe please just tell your friends about the HeadRightOut podcast and help me to grow, grow grow. I'd love for as many women as possible to hear the messages that me and my lovely guests have to offer, and will be offering over the course of the next few episodes and seasons, as it develops. Okay, don't hide in. You go out there and HeadRightOut. You know you've got what it takes. HeadRightOut hugs, love to you all.
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Stay Strong: an introduction to HeadRightOut, Zoe's fears, her plans and the backstory... 001: Solopisode
17 sep 2021· HeadRightOut
Zoe Langley-Wathen -
host of the HeadRightOut Podcast
Zoe Langley-Wathen introduces her aims for HeadRightOut, and the fears she regularly faces. As an experienced solo long-distance walker, she wasn't always the brave soul people seem to think she is. Her mission is to encourage more midlife women to head out of their comfort zone, within the outdoors. It's hoped that Zoe's honest approach and storytelling style will encourage you to take more Outdoor Medicine as you listen and look forward to her conversations with many resilient women.

00:22

Hello, and welcome to the HeadRightOut podcast. My name is Zoe Langley-Wathen. And I am so, so flippin delighted to be here with you for my very first episode, I can't begin to tell you what this is feeling like for me now I'm wrapped up with nerves. I'm wrapped up with excitement. And I am just absolutely, just chomping at the bit to spill the beans and let you know who we are going to be interviewing and what's going to be happening over the course of the next few episodes. So first off, I'm going to start with a request. And that's to ask you this. If, by the end of the show, you are even remotely interested in what I've shared with you today, please, please would you be kind enough to hit the Follow button in your podcast app? It would be great for me to know that I've got a group of people other than my family and friends, of course, who wants to share this excitement with me, this excitement of heading right out of my comfort zone on this podcast journey. I you know, I've spent the last 10 years doing things where I'm heading right out. But this is a biggie for me. So please hit the Follow button button in your podcast app. Okay, so it's the 24th of August 2021, as I record this, and as I launch this, we're just clambering out of the summer, and into that beautiful season of harvest, and the autumn. Oh my gosh, I love the autumn. Autumn for me is a season that's just ripe for potential new adventures. You know, the weather's cooler, the outdoor space isn't so full with holiday makers, the children are back at school, and the spider's webs, they are just decorated with heavy droplets, hopefully not frost at this stage. And the rich colors of the fall, have begun to paint the tops of the trees... and I just find it's one of my favourite times of the year.

02:32

The 29th of August is the second anniversary of me launching the HeadRightOut website. Now that was a blog space and place a guest to share my challenges and adventures. I never dreamt that I'd be sat here two years on muddling my way through an audio swamp. That's all I can call it. I might still be learning how all of this tech stuff works. But you know, that's fine. It's just like playing a complex game of cards, I'll just simply learn the rules as I go.

03:05

Now what did you think of the theme music? I hope you liked it. It was one of the first pieces that I stumbled across almost a year ago now, when I was looking for potential clips to use for the pod. Now I saved this one knowing it only is EA29 something or other, I forget what the code was now. And it took me ages to re-find it a few weeks back. I went through trying to find it because I wanted to be sure that I could legally use it, and imagine my total astonishment when I discovered I'd chosen a piece of music by Caffeine Creek Band, (thank you Caffeine Creek Band), called... you'll never going to believe this... 'Stay Strong'. Yep! 'Stay Strong' for a podcast that centres around resilience, what a coincidence. I just love synchronicity like that. Seriously. It's a true story. So our theme tune is Stay Strong by Caffeine Creek Band.

04:04

Okay, so in today's show, here's the plan. I'm going to give you more of my story and my aims for the podcast. And I guess perhaps I might even let on a few of my fears with you, as this is what it's all about. I'll also happily share why I felt moved to set up HeadRightOut. I'm going to be revealing how I see the podcast being delivered to you. Though I realise this will no doubt be a moveable feast as feedback and reviews are left, and as I develop and discover new opportunities for the show. You know, it's got to grow and flow. Oh, that rhymes! For the benefit of the listeners who've never heard of little ol' me, I'm going to be giving you some of my personal background too. And particularly in my own history of heading out of my comfort zone. And believe me, I'm not the brave soul that many people seem to think I am. One of my biggest issues to hold me back is imposter syndrome. And I'm sure that topic is going to come back time and time and time again. It's going to pop up, not just with me, but with some of the guests that I'll be interviewing as well, I'm sure of it.

05:17

So HeadRightOut, what is it? What do I aim to achieve? How often is it going to happen, when, what format? Right HeadRightOut was born in 2019, when I took the leap of faith out of my permanent contract teaching role, though, I had nothing to go to, signing up as a supply teacher did at least give me some hope of financial backup. Deep down, I knew there was something more out there for me, something that would allow me to use my teaching skills without the pressure of planning, preparation, marking and exam analysis within that school environment. And now I find the calling to develop my creative and adventurous path to inspire other women to HeadRightOut and do something that scares them, is stronger than ever. And I talk to as many people as I can, you know, when I'm out and about I meet people, when I'm shopping at home, I live on a public footpath, on a towpath, and you know, I meet people all the time, and I just want to share this message. Now, as I mentioned earlier, HeadRightOut started life as a blog along with the usual Facebook, Instagram and Twitter accounts, and I'd set it up with a view to inspiring others, to challenge themselves to head off on an adventure or to step out of their comfort zone. And I'm so enthusiastic about this, that I've got plans to publish various books on my personal experiences of adventure and well being, in addition to growing the podcast, and I hope that we're going to have some really interesting and fascinating women that are really going to inspire you, as time goes on. I've already got a list of women that I want to interview. And I've also got a lovely group of people that I've already interviewed. So yes, it's very, very exciting about doing this.

07:14

Now the calling to develop my creative and adventurous path to inspire other women to HeadRightOut and do something that scares them is stronger than ever. As mentioned earlier, HeadRightOut started life as a blog, along with the usual Facebook, Insta, and Twitter accounts. And I'd set it up with a view to inspiring others to challenge themselves to head off on an adventure, or step out of their comfort zone, do something different. And I'm so enthusiastic about this that I've got plans to publish various books on my own personal experiences of adventure and well being in addition to growing the podcast, I hope you're going to stick around and dip in and into those as well and hopefully get something positive back.

07:57

Now my first foray into writing for publication was during 2020 when I wrote a chapter for the Biggest Book of Yes, my story captured the tale of my first solo long-distance adventure along the 630 miles of the South West Coast Path... that's always a tongue twister! The book was sold to raise funds for the charity Teddington trust, supporting those that have a rare and life... not life-limiting sorry, a rare and limiting skin condition of exoderma pigmentosum, or XP, as it's more commonly known. It was such a good experience for me. And while I've always loved to write, it gave me the push I needed to aim for the big one. My own book. So I've got Dave Cornthwaite of the Yes Tribe, and John Doolan, and all the rest of the team around the Biggest Book of Yes, to thank for that. So there's Esther and Claire, and what an amazing team, it was putting together that book.

09:00

November is the month of NaNoWriMo. And so over November, January and February of 2021. I did it I penned over 88,000 words of my first draft. I've never written that amount of words in my life. It's currently resting, but I can't wait to get back to it and actually start editing. Just you know, to go back and do it some justice, get it out there, proper job. The book is an adventure memoir, and it shares an honest account of my fears, feelings, achievements, and all those wonderful people that I met along the route of the South West Coast Path, many of whom were influential in my darkest and my bravest moments. Meeting people and being inspired by their stories, learning from them their expertise and from their mistakes, as well as, gosh, many many of my own hiccups. I guess I realised that this isn't something to be kept private any more, and so many other women need to hear how capable they really are. You need to hear how capable YOU really are, of doing something big, something seemingly impossible. You might have thought you could never possibly manage a long-distance walk, something that took you off for six or eight weeks. But it's just putting one foot in front of the other. And if you're anything like me, you will you know, over-analyse it, overthink it and just find yourself coming up with all sorts of obstacles and problems and reasons why you can't do it. But you ARE capable of doing something like this. Midlife women need to see and hear others like them, telling stories of doing amazing things. Sowing that seed that perhaps they too, you, too, could try something similar.

10:59

Now as it stands, I see the HeadRightOut podcast being delivered as a series, in which to share conversations with resilient women. New episodes will be out every Wednesday at 6am. UK time. And the focus will be mainly with women in their mid-life and upwards doing brave stuff in the outdoors and how they believe it's benefited their resilience, their well being, how it's impacted, on their life going forward. And I also have planned to have one solo episode, so-lep, sorry. I also plan to have one solep. Doh. I also plan to have one solo episode, approximately every four to six weeks to update listeners of where I am in my own journey. Hmmm. I probably should be editing this out the solo, solopes, solopisode. Maybe I should just call it 'Solopisode'. I like that. Well, I'm always making up new words, but I quite like it. So perhaps we'll keep that word in. So we'll just nickname it the 'solopisode'.

12:10

Now, every so often, I'm going to be getting out and about and trying new activities, things that previously I might have felt fearful of having a go at. And in these cases, I'm going to be sharing all my vulnerabilities, my anxieties and my achievements, recording where possible in different environments in the moment. Although sometimes, it might be that I have to do the activity and record directly after, just before, middle or after - I don't know. Well, we'll just go with the flow, see how it goes and just take each activity as it comes. Now, I hope you'll understand that these episodes won't have the same sound quality as you would expect from an indoor recording. But it should prove to have a great in the moment quality to them instead. I'm already incredibly nervous about doing these. But in a type two kind of way. I'm also massively looking forward to them. And here's the thing though, I'm still working on a catchy name to give these episodes, these activity episodes, these outdoor recordings. So if you can think of anything I could call them I would love to hear from you. I don't know about you, but I get quite excited by a clever play on words. Perhaps not solopisode, but anyway, if you could think of something you can tweet me at HeadRightOut, private message me on any of the socials - I'm @HeadRightOut there too. Or just email me [email protected].

13:37

And because the HeadRightOut podcast is all about sharing those stories of achieving something brave and way beyond your comfort zone limits, I thought it would be a great idea for listeners to send in their own HeadRightOut moments. Now I'm going to pick at least one each week to read out so you could get a mention on the show. And as before, if you've got something you want to share with us, you can private message me on any of those socials or email me on [email protected]

14:11

So who am I? What do I know - what on earth do I know about resilience and comfort zones? Although I've been a secondary school teacher since 2005, I've been adventuring long-distance paths, in addition to that since 2011. And I found I was discovering the life changing benefits of pushing my own comfort zone boundaries and facing my fears. When I set off on the South West Coast Path at the age of forty, ready to walk this 630-mile national trail solo, I don't mind admitting that I was... I was terrified. There's no other word for it. I was absolutely, completely blank with fear, and 'what the heck am I doing' type of feelings. But determined to accomplish this footpath, I still felt doubtful of my ability to achieve a successful outcome. And it was that fear that had put me off trying the path for a full fifteen years before that. I'd waited fifteen years to go ahead and walk this path, because I didn't think I had the ability to do it. I doubted my physical ability, and I'd also doubted my mental resilience, or maybe I just didn't think I, I had mental resilience, or maybe I didn't understand what it was, I don't know. But I just didn't think I could face those aspects of the walk that scared me the most.

15:40

Walking solo, wild camping solo, making river crossings, you know, the sort where you're wading across. These were all the things that that I feared. By announcing it to the school that I worked in, and then publishing my intentions on my very basic level of social media that I had at that time. (I think I actually only used Facebook and Twitter at this point). But I made it a thing. And by making it a thing, it was no longer a dream that was just out of reach. It was something I had to work towards and I had to complete, no matter how much it scared me or how hard I was going to find it. By hook or by crook I was going to do this thing. You have to make it a thing. The challenge was supposed to be a one off challenge to mark my 40th birthday and then I'd just go back to my normal routine and tuck the adventure into my imaginary Journal of Achievements. How wrong I was to think that's what would happen. Little did I know that I would come home a different Zoe. A different Zoe to the Zoe who left seven weeks earlier. I was different physically, mentally, and emotionally. I was fitter. I was smaller. And yes, I actually dropped two dress sizes. And I now carried a mental toughness that I'd never known before. I missed the path. I hankered after the simplicity of the day-to-day survival and after a new adventure, especially as people began to ask me what's next? What's your next challenge going to be Zo? I was definitely after a new adventure. I definitely needed something else to be working towards. I'd proved to myself that I could walk on my own and feel confident. So I kind of tucked that one away. That was good. I had proved myself, eventually, that I could wild camp solo. And I proved to myself that I could wade across a river, and I was still here to tell the tale. No catastrophic disasters had occurred. I hadn't been washed out to sea, which is what I thought was going to happen. It was a massive, massive lesson for my brain. And my resilience strengthened tenfold that year.

18:00

The following year, I found myself walking the Wales Coast Path with two friends I'd met on the South West Coast Path. We headed up to Cardiff Bay on May the 5th - that was the day of the official Wales Coast Path opening, and we ran the last mile with Arry Cane, (she was then Arry Beresford-Webb), as she arrived, having spent the last forty days running the full perimeter of the country. And she handed the baton on to Dave Quarrell, who continued on to walk around the country. Two months later, I set off with my friends from Chepstow, and on completion of walking the Wales Coast Path, I realised I'd just become the first woman to walk it. And it felt like such an honour. It felt like an honour to be able to run that last mile with Arry and see her coming in having become the first woman to run around Wales. Probably the first woman to run around the country. I don't know. But it was an honour to know that I had this little tag that said I was the first woman to walk it. And it gave me more confidence, it spurred me on to do more.

19:13

Year on year, more challenges were being tucked into my logbook and I was determined that I should keep that independence of walking solo alive, because it's very easy to become dependent on having a companion, having somebody to reassure you with questions that you might need to find solutions to, or directions that you might need to find, just decisions you need to make. So with that in mind, wanting to keep that independence, I set off to walk the Offa's Dyke national trail on my own over the summer of 2013 and then that completed my own perimeter of Wales.

19:56

In 2014, I was planning to do a perimeter of my then home county, Dorset. I had a huge knock to my confidence however, when my long-term relationship ended abruptly at Christmas 2013. And with much to sort out over the coming months, I was unable to undertake this challenge, but instead managed a few days of solo backpacking along the East Mendip Way. And I'm so pleased I did that. Because it just felt like it was the medicine I needed. It kept my feet wanting to walk solo. And don't get me wrong, I still love walking with other people as well, but I just think keeping that independence is important. It was a positive step towards maintaining my confidence, despite those personal difficulties I've been experiencing. Although during that first walk along the South West Coast Path, I had already discovered the power of being on my own out in nature. I know, I absolutely know that I truly felt the impact of outdoor medicine over those few days and I can't recommend it enough. You know, if you're going through any issues, any problems, any things that you need to solve being outside, I'm not saying for days and days on end, necessarily. But just being outside is such a tonic, such a medicine. You'll hear me going on about outdoor medicine or outside medicine such a lot. So yes, we will come back to that. Not necessarily in this episode, but later on.

21:32

So I was no longer somebody who simply loved a challenge or wanted to see if I could do a long walk every year. I was now someone for whom adventure had become wholly entrenched in my life. And I longed for the next walk, and the next big adventure to come round. Because it was a part of my life. And as bizarre as it might seem to you, it's actually become a necessary part of my identity. Other people expected it of me - not that I do things because other people expect them. But as much as I needed it, I wanted to do it. But other people also were asking, "what's next?"

22:15

So two other little known facts about me, (one of them I've shared earlier), is that I suffer endless bouts of imposter syndrome. Thankfully, I realised I'm not alone with this and I'm working really hard to get on top of it. It involves a lot of self-talk, believe me and self-coaching, and it's often reared it's ugly head over my shoulder with that voice of doubt, whispering incessantly into my ear telling me I'm not good enough, and that there are others, you know, who are going to be far more qualified than me. Who the hell do I think I am? Why would I think I could possibly make X,Y,Z work? It is a constant battle. I'm sure you can imagine how much I fought with myself over launching this podcast even.

22:56

It's been around four years, I reckon since the first seed was planted by Sarah Williams of the amazing Tough Girl Podcast. If you haven't been to listen to that, make sure you do. It was her podcast, in fact, that set me on the road to devouring the spoken word through the medium of podcasts. I remember her telling me personally and her listeners, that I'm a wonderful storyteller, and my heart lit up as I knew how much I love to share stories. I pride myself usually in being able to deliver them well, especially the stories I'm well-practiced at. But that mean little voice gradually crept back over my shoulder and into my ear, borrowing deeper and deeper into my psyche. "She doesn't mean you tell great stories. That's just another way of telling you that you talk too much. You have too much to say Wath, get over yourself. Learn to say less." Imposter syndrome once again, all my insecurities came flooding back in an instant. And I found myself burying the idea. Until I heard Sarah mentioned me again a couple of years later, and then at a face to face gathering, she reiterated how much she believed in me to be able to share stories that would empower other women. I'm actually feeling quite emotional talking about this. Because I can feel this ball of emotion and power and need to share these stories just starting to burn in my chest and in my belly.

24:35

Opening myself up like this and letting you know my vulnerabilities is a scary thing. But also putting myself out there as an expert on this subject, I guess, is also a scary thing. I'm not an expert. I'm just somebody who has experienced a lot of fear-facing and a lot, I mean a huge amount of positive impact and positive response to stepping out of my comfort zone. I knew I could do it. I just had to fight my demons and be brave enough to contact some amazing women who've done much bigger and better things than I've ever dreamt about, let alone had go at. Little me who gets scared at trying so many things in case I look stupid, why would they want to talk to me? And there once again, my downward spiral returned, it was like a spring, going down one day bouncing up again, another down, up, down up. There's never usually any signs of depression that cloud me with these limiting beliefs. It is purely the message that I give myself, or perhaps that others have given me in the past that I've listened to for too long and not learnt to work around. I've just found myself unable to shake them off.

25:26

In addition, I've recently discovered, contrary to my family and friends' beliefs about me and even my own beliefs about me, that I am in fact, an introvert. Now don't get me wrong, I love people. I love speaking, and I love some social situations as well. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm shy either. Although sometimes I can be, especially when that imposter syndrome is in full swing. It's more about how I draw my energy. For some people, they feel recharged and are buzzing from the contact with a group of people. But for me, on the other hand, I've realised how drained I feel when I'm around people, particularly now I'm a supply teacher, and regularly visiting schools with so many different students and staff. I don't see it as a negative by any means. It's just an observation about me that I've finally begun to understand and manage. To ensure I can socialise, but still giving myself the time I need to revitalise my brain and mental capacity. And that's really where the Outdoor Medicine comes in too - knowing that giving myself an hour outdoors after I've had some bigger social interactions with people, where I'm feeling drained, being outdoors for an hour to go for a walk can absolutely be just what the doctor ordered. I wonder how many of you actually deal with these two traits, imposter syndrome and being an introvert?

26:31

HeadRightOut. Why am I so passionate about setting up this podcast? Well, there's some things I discovered about me after these years of walking long distances, and that I want midlife women to know that they ARE capable, and it's never too late to have a go. And I say midlife women loosely because midlife women to me is forty to forty-five plus and that's all the way up to eighties or nineties. I'm not cancelling out anybody there. However, I was really interested to talk to a friend of mine yesterday, who is a veteran hammer thrower, a Masters champion hammer thrower. She won two golds yesterday, up in Derby and now she is seventy-four. I asked her what the age range of people that were at this competition was and she said the eldest was ninety-seven, and the youngest was in their thirties. I'm thinking how can somebody in their thirties be classed as a Masters? So yeah, I don't quite understand that. I don't get it. But anyway, midlife is a very cloudy, foggy area. So please don't think I'm cancelling out anybody because, you know, if you're in your twenties, my daughter, my stepdaughter, they're in their twenties. Actually, they need to know too, what you've got ahead of you what things you have to look forward to not something where you reach a certain age and your life just gets cut short because you know, you're too old to try anything. It's never too late to have a go. You ARE capable.

27:32

So it's wanting the midlife women of the future. My daughter, my granddaughter, my niece yours. I want you to know that there are no limits set by age or gender for that matter. I want you to be inspired by the older women of your present. The older women of your past, so that you can transition into midlife. Not with the resentment of reaching a milestone age but with excitement about reaching the next chapter, and all the opportunities that that brings.

29:53

This has all come from stuff in my past. So following many long journeys weekly back and forth to support my elderly parents, in 2017, I finally discovered the power of podcasts. No longer able to head off for weeks or months at a time, due to my care commitments, I appreciated that distraction of listening to other women's personal stories, living their adventures vicariously through my in-car speakers. This was a definite lift to my mental health. Instead of driving home in tears and despair, as I watched my parents struggle with their failing health, I found myself looking forward to the two and a quarter hours of driving each way, keen to hear about a range of experiences and conversations. And since then, I've become an avid consumer of podcasts, and have been delighted to be interviewed myself for numerous shows.

30:46

Unable to head off on my usual long distance trails anymore, I was craving a new adventure. My head needed it as much as my body needed the physical movement. It was during this time that the penny dropped about why I was missing my long-distance walks. Although I love walking and the meditation that naturally breathes its way into my day, I realised I was missing the challenge aspect too. When I'm facing a new challenge, I'm planning, I'm preparing, I'm wholly focused on an end goal, and that target keeps my mind and drive to achieve the goal, super-sharp.

31:25

Without the focus of a challenge, I was floating and beginning to feel myself sinking in my mood. I knew I needed to act. So rather than unhelpfully trawling the national trails or long-distance walkers handbook for walks that I knew I could no longer commit the time to do, I built my own challenge. It was called 100 Mappy Days, I decided I'd walk one hundred different walks, all using a map or map app. They could be anything over a mile long, and I'd aim to walk all one hundred in the space of a year, equivalent to approximately two walks per week.

31:58

Well, all the best plans... my Dad had a fall in the April and went into hospital. In the meantime, Mum had three weeks restpite in a residential care home while the family tried to clear some of the house in readiness for both Mum and Dad to return with some more specialised care for Dad. Mum was having her little holiday eleven miles east of her village. Dad was in hospital eleven miles west of the village. It was a really difficult time. Even more so when we needed to collect Mum to visit Dad in between locating and filling a storage container with years of hoarding. I was exhausted mentally, physically and emotionally.

32:40

All I can say is thank goodness for 100 Mappy Days. Without that to give me a little nudge towards continuing the challenge, I'd have probably lost the plot. Making time for a minimum of forty minutes walking around the village, down through the fields along the old Cheddar Valley railway line and down to the River Yeo gave me the outdoor medicine I needed, to keep my mental health afloat. There we go. I did say I was probably going to mention outdoor medicine again. I just didn't think it was going to be quite so soon. But I'd come to accept now that I wasn't going to manage to complete the challenge within the year timeframe, I'd given myself for 100 Mappy Days. And that was okay. I was making up the rules. So actually, it didn't matter. I didn't need to beat myself up about it.

33:26

As it was I walked the fiftieth Mappy Day on New Year's Eve of 2018, which we dedicated to our lovely dad, who passed away just three weeks before that. 2019 was then about achieving the next fifty Mappy Days, and it became such a great habit. Even my husband, Mike, would ask if we were going to be walking a Mappy Day today. And "where was our next Mappy Day going to take us?"

33:53

After Dad died, my subconscious brain started to niggle at me with messages that there was more for me out there, and that the teaching role I was in, more than just the hours of planning and preparation marking analysis, there was something more that I could offer. And I was sure that I could use my skills that I developed over the years of teaching to benefit women. I knew I wanted to write and spea. I started speaking in assemblies at school and really felt a buzz from doing that, and I was always given good feedback from it. But how could I make this happen? How could I leave a secure job with nothing to go to and a mortgage to pay? Well, the pull became so strong that by February of 2019, I handed in my notice, with my last working day being in July of the same year. I'd worked in the same school for 13 years and I remember shedding a few tears as I handed my letter of resignation to the head teacher. I felt such an oaf, honestly. But he understood.

34:57

Once I'd done that the relief was immense. I knew that whatever happened now, I would just make it work - I had to. I had a plan... sort of. I'd leave school set up a new website and blog, write the first book of many that I've got tucked into this brain of mine, and work part-time as a supply teacher down in Dorset. Mike and I also decided that on the day I should have returned to school that we'd head off on a hike of the Wainwright's route of the northern Coast to Coast, from Whitehaven to Robin Hood's Bay. At only 192 miles it was doable in a two week window, which was all I could really spare, before needing to be back to support mum for her weekly care day.

35:41

How could I have known that by April, I'd be on crutches, having had a little accident, on the ski slope accompanying a school trip to the French Alps. That was a HeadRightOut Moment as well, because I've never been skiing. It was all completely new and I was on day four of ski school. It was a weird time. But the first half of my very last term in the school was spent at home, resting a torn ACL, MCL and a partially dislocated kneecap.

36:10

Instead, I focused on sorting all that stuff I'd collected over the years. And planning. I was doing lots of planning in my head. Mike would bring me down a box from the attic and I'd sort it and I got rid of masses of clothes and I had the biggest spring clean I'd ever embarked upon. And I think I started listening or watching Marie Kondo as well and sorting out my drawers, making them look tidy. It was really cathartic, hugely cathartic. And I also use the headspace to consider where to take my life once leaving my teaching post.

36:49

This is actually where the full shape of HeadRightOut began to develop, if I'm honest. I now had a focus again too, despite still being on crutches. I was determined to still be able to walk Wainwright's Coast to Coast. Once I'd had the all clear from the hospital to start physiotherapy, I exercised my knee to ensure it was strong enough to get up into those Lakeland mountains and do some much needed long-distance walking again. Did I make it? Yes, I did! It felt pretty good. Actually, most of the way I only had one or two little twinges. But I was so proud. I won't say I wasn't fearful of injuring it again, because I was and I was careful. I did everything the physio told me, and I worked so hard on those regular exercises to regain the strength and movement I needed. It was four and a half months from injury to leaving for the walk, and I did it. So I hope this gives you some hope if you've been injured, and working through a recovery program... and I should add, I was 48 years old when this all happened. So once again, it's never too late.

37:56

Back to that plan, then of part time working, websiting, writing, and walking. In addition to this, Mike and I made the decision to move up to South Wales to live on a narrowboat. She's a forty-foot stern cruiser called Alys, who had been with Mike for around twelve years. It was a good plan and an exciting plan. A bit scary but exciting. I needed to register with the teaching agency in South Wales, and I'd only be an hour's drive away now from Mum, instead of the two and a quarter hours drive that it had been from Dorset. That was only one way - two and a quarter hours. It all made perfect sense.

38:34

The house in Dorset could be rented out and we'd finally need to sort through our accumulation of stuff and let some of it go. Well, let let most of it go. We were moving from a three-bed house with a garage, to a six-feet ten wide by forty-feet long, narrowboat. Well, after multiple changes to our dates, our final plan was to move to Alys on the 28th of March 2020... we all know what happened in the UK on the 23rd of March!

39:07

Mike and I had spent a few weeks emptying our house in readiness for our move on the 28th. We had no fridge-freezer, no washing machine, no bed, no telly (not that we watch TV anyway). We had a few basic things. My yoga mat, an inflatable mattress, a fold up table, two chairs. We did have a sofa that was being given away on the day before leaving, but we couldn't move. So essentially, we found ourselves glamping in a near empty house for four months. It was a strange experience to begin with. It could have sent either one of us over the edge, I guess. However, we just treated it like another adventure.

39:44

Mike cracked on with working on all those little jobs around the house that needed to be done. I'd been due to set off on a walk along the Southern Upland Way in Scotland. This couldn't happen either. So instead I pulled together a small band of Instagram and Facebook walkers and runners, to climb the equivalent ascent of the trail in their back gardens. We completed it over a period of two weeks walking or running the final day in fancy dress. It felt like a really positive way to begin the lockdown instead of struggling with the emptiness of the house. I mean, it could have been such a different experience. But I think sometimes it's just the way you frame it, the way you want to look at it.

40:27

By June, I'd set up a new Facebook group, the HeadRightOut Hub, a group for women who need a safe space to talk about testing their resilience. Come mid-July, we were finally ready to move up to the boat. And it all felt right. It felt exciting. Although it was emotional to leave my house of twelve years, I was happy in my new surroundings on the towpath.

40:49

Trees, water, hills, mountains, exceptionally yummy greenery and scenery - there's another rhyme! It served me well throughout more lockdowns and it continues to fill my soul, thirteen months on. And, you know, the more I was interviewed for other podcasts about my experiences during this time, the more I knew in my heart that I needed to begin this podcasting journey for myself. It still scared me. And I could easily have delayed further but the time had come, the time had come and I knew I had no more excuses I could make, I had to get this show on the road, as they say, or on the canal.

41:31

Anyway, over the years, so many past students have got in touch with me to thank me for inspiring them. Receiving feedback like this is such a joy. It's such a simple thank you, such a simple message of gratitude. To know that I've lifted a student to a point where I've been able to facilitate or inspire them to take a new direction or believe in themselves is profound for me. Sometimes the message from them hasn't been about the teaching. There have been numerous occasions where the ex-student said they were inspired by one of my assemblies about facing fears or my courage to go off and walk a coast path on my own. So much that they took off and did it themselves! Each time I hear this, it reminds me that one small message can make a huge impact for another human being for their lifelong wellbeing.

42:25

Women, empowering other women is a thing. It happens. I know this firsthand because I've felt it. Listening to and watching women adventuring, being brave. Watching them trying new things or hearing about how they've pushed their bodies. It's like a subliminal message that's being delivered to us over and over until finally, we realise. We understand. We believe that we too can take that chance. We can have a go. We can experience the life-changing benefits of adventure. Gosh, this feels like it's really come from inside me here. I mean, I've written a few notes to share with you and I just felt like that flowed in a way that I can't explain, because I feel so passionate about this right here, as a fifty-year old female.

43:24

Yes, I did turn fifty in May. I know that I am in the perimenopause phase in my life. Changes even if unwanted are happening to my body that I can't stop. I've got to accept that. What I do not have to accept however, are the chemical changes in my body that control my hormone levels and what it does to my brain. I cannot accept that my way of thinking is going to change because my hormone levels are changing. I understand that my estrogen levels may lower and cortisol levels are likely to drop, causing me to lose confidence. I'm not an expert at this and I haven't read as much or researched as much as perhaps I could, or should have done yet, but you know that's going to happen. But I do understand that at this time of my life, I need to make a concerted effort to stay strong, fit and healthy to protect my bones.

44:22

I'm determined to maintain my confidence by exploring the many outdoor and fitness opportunities that there are there for me, by preparing myself with knowledge and the support of those around me if needed. I hope that I'm going to be able to harness a healthy, calm transition through the menopause. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blinkered to what many people go through, and I do acknowledge that it can be a traumatic ride for some people. But I hope my experience, whatever comes my way is going to be manageable with the physical and emotional tools that I have on board. And as I said, I am going to spend some more time reading around this topic and I'll come back to you in a later episode perhaps, with any nuggets, any pearls of wisdom that I've found. We might even be able to bring an expert onto the podcast to join me in an enriching conversation about female wellbeing, physical activity and health regarding the menopause, that would be a good one.

45:22

So this is a good place to call it a day for this first, what did I call it 'Solopisode'. Thank you for listening in today. I hope you'll be hitting that 'follow' button so you don't miss any future episodes. I'll be back with the next episode, where we'll be talking to Julia Goodfellow-Smith.

45:46

She is a walker, and adventurer and speaker and we've got some amazing nuggets from Julia. I do like those little nuggets of wisdom that are passed on from woman to woman. Don't forget too, that if you think of a catchy name to give to my outdoor episodes, I'd love to hear from you. I'm also looking for some HeadRightOut Moments to read out. So for either of those, private message me on any of the socials FB: @headrightout, TW: @headrightout, IG: @headrightout or you can email me on [email protected].

46:17

Come and join us for the next chat in the second episode. I do hope you can join us. And if you head over to my website, there's also a freebie booklet that I put together called packing for a multi-day hike. So if any of you are planning an adventure across a few days or weeks, then this might be of use to you. There's a sample kit list at the end, so you can see everything that I generally carry with me. That's at headrightout.com.

46:43

Okey doke. That's it for now. Start thinking about how you can HeadRightOut of your comfort zone. I'm Zoe Langley-Wathen. Thanks for joining me today. HeadRightOut Hugs to you all and I'll see you all next time.
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A Donkey, Children & Slow Ways; inspiring human-powered home travel: Hannah Engelkamp - 019

Fell Running, Marathons & Mountain Biking; Founder of Element for Active Women - 018: Ruth Pickvance

Truffles, Tribes & Tragedy; Healing Through World Foods & Adventures - 017: Sue Plastow

A Do or Die Decision on Weight Loss; Discovering a New Life Outdoors - 016: Maria Roberts

Miles, Mountains & Menopause: Getting My Life Back - 015: Jo Bradshaw

Van Life, Challenging Ageist Attitudes & Pro-ageing; Retire Adventurously & Positively - 014: Siobhan Daniels

Oceans Seven & 1111km Extreme Ultra-Triathlon; Strength, Meditation and Mindful Music - 013: Abhejali Bernardová

Explore, Challenge and Observe: The Three Pillars of HeadRightOut - Solopisode - 012: Zoe Langley-Wathen

The world needs an Adventure Revolution: and midlife women to organise it! - 011: Belinda Kirk

Finding a Way Into Confidence; 5500+ miles on foot, Kyiv to UK, via Spain, bears and a pandemic - 010: Ursula Martin

An Accidental Adventurer and a World Record: collecting kindness acts and building resilience - 009: Nahla Summers

A Curvy Woman in Love With Solo Backpacking: the Appalachian Trail & founding Trail Dames - 008: Anna Huthmaker

Solo hiking & wild camping heaven vs. the darkness of depression and early menopause 007: Stephie Boon

The Triumph is in the Trying: from grief and menopause to the joy of rowing and SUPing - 006: Jo Moseley

Never Too Old For Adventure: Cruel Tanzania Amoeba, Beating Shyness to Antarctica & Over 500 Days of Walking at 73 yrs 005: Cherry Hamrick

HeadRightOut Into SUP School: Mindfulness and Jelly Legs on a Paddleboard With Blorenge SUP 004: Helen Jenkins

Why so many women are scared to adventure and recognising our female role models with Tough Girl Founder 003: Sarah Williams

Live Your Bucket List: Super Powers and Angry Man on the South West Coast Path - 002: Julia Goodfellow-Smith

Stay Strong: an introduction to HeadRightOut, Zoe's fears, her plans and the backstory... 001: Solopisode