Episodios
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Jed Byrne is a man of many hats, but what he really cares about is demystifying real estate development for ordinary people. Jed’s podcast, Dirt NC, focuses primarily on issues in North Carolina and especially the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill “Triangle” area.
Earlier this year, Jed and a group of people from the local Chamber visited the Kansas City region on a mission to learn from each other. I’m not sure they talked much basketball (Kansas - the birthplace of North Carolina basketball as the saying goes), but they did talk a lot about economic development. And while here, Jed had a chance to check in with our local small development group. We talk about why it’s important to have a local ecosystem of small developers like we have, and what he hopes to achieve by having one in the Triangle. Jed also has some insights on what it’s like to live in a fast-growing region, vs. the sort of slow and steady growth we have in most Midwestern markets.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
One of the critical dilemmas of our time for people in retailing is, how do you get people to put down their devices and come out to shop in the real world? Jaime Izurieta of Storefront Mastery, talks about how shopping has become commoditized, and what to do about it. We discuss how to create an experience that makes people want to come out, and how businesses are adapting to the new reality.
Stay tuned through the whole episode, as we also get into an interesting discussion on money, Bitcoin and place-making.
Jaime’s book: “Main Street Mavericks”
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
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Today’s episode isn’t exactly Coughlin’s Laws, nor is it my whole list of Klinkenberg’s Rules, but it is full of some life advice I’d like to share for the dog days of Summer. I’ve long enjoyed solving problems of all kinds, and trying to help my community progress. But it isn’t easy, and it takes the right mindset to have success. Whether you are working in development, planning, policy change or just trying to fix problems generally, I hope this offers something useful for you.
Key link: Symphony in the Flint Hills
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
What's it like to start an architecture school from scratch? That’s a question that has run through my mind for years. So much of the education of architects and designers is, at best, misguided. As I discussed on my appearance on The Aesthetic City podcast, it’s also very cult-like and sends people down roads that aren’t terribly productive nor do they produce beautiful buildings that the public enjoys.
John Haigh, who’s the Chair of the Architecture program at Benedictine College, in Atchison, Kansas, aims to do something about all this. You likely haven’t heard of Benedictine before, as it’s a small college in a small town in flyover country. But you might want to pay attention to what they’re doing now, and what is rumbling up from the grass roots in higher education.
We cover a lot in this podcast, including
* the importance of learning to draw by hand, in the computer age
* What is the impact of AI on the school and the students?
* Why this is happening in Catholic schools?
* can a college teach architects to become developers?
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
Why is the production of housing, especially new housing in big cities, so expensive? Why doesn’t inclusionary zoning make our cities more affordable? How can cities amend the building code itself to help in housing production, and even make for better quality apartments?
To answer these questions and more, I had a long and code-nerdy chat with Emily Hamilton. Emily is the Senior Research Fellow and Director of the Urbanity Project at Mercatus Center, George Mason University. That’s a long title and way of saying, she’s someone who does a LOT of research into housing policy, and really knows her stuff.
I’ve been in this game long enough to be able to detect people who act like they’re serious about housing policy, but really aren’t. As in, they really don’t much about how housing gets built, who builds it, why they build it, and why they might build more. Emily is not one of those people. She has a clear interest in getting more of all kinds of housing built, to help with the price crunch that exists in so many markets.
If you want to talk code reform and housing policy, this is your episode.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
Terrell Jolly didn’t start out making it his mission in life to become a small-scale developer. But somewhere along the way, from Detroit to Kansas City, he made it happen. And boy is KC lucky to have him.
TJ, as most people know him, is a unique guy in this town, and has a very unique process. But should it be unique, or should what he does be much more normal? He talks through how he bootstrapped his way into becoming a developer, how he works with Missouri’s Abandoned Housing Act in neighborhoods that the vast majority of developers avoid, and why he takes on such a difficult task.
When I hear TJ talk, I think to myself, this is what our cities need. For a lot of cities in the Midwest in particular, we have a LOT of older homes and buildings that need renovation. We also have people who need affordable places to live. It’s people like TJ that figure out how to make it all economical, and are showing us a path towards something that can scale. But as he says, “you gotta have the guts.” It’s not easy. It’s not for the faint of heart. But it sure does have its rewards.
Every city probably has a Terrell Jolly, and every city could use about a dozen more.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
“The solution to the housing problem is more housing. Getting there is the hard part.” So says my friend Dennis Strait, now retired Principal of multistudio in Kansas City. Dennis is a planner, architect, landscape architect, civic volunteer and frequently wise counsel on all matters related to city-building.
Dennis has been lately working on his notion of housing as an economic development strategy. That sounds logical - entirely too logical. But it’s often not how people in the world of economic development think. In particular, for modest-cost cities like Kansas City and much of the Midwest, affordability in housing has long been a value proposition. How do we retain that as times change, and as we grow? We discuss this, as well as working to improve disinvested parts of our city, and explore the notion of whether or not our urban core is actually growing.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
Not long ago, I started noticing these long and interesting regular Facebook posts coming through my feed by an account named “Revitalize or Die.” Often compelling rants on towns, economic development and planning, this was right in my wheelhouse. I like people with actual thoughtful (and sharp) opinions, especially when they cut to the core of issues I’m familiar with. For example, “growth doesn’t always equal improvement.” And, “we have a lot of institutions and agencies that haven’t kept pace with the times.”
Jeff Siegler is the man behind the account, and he’s built a nice little business on the backs of his tough love and his experience. He denies he’s the tough love guy, and he clearly is a likable person. But I’ll stick with the meme - I think what he does is try to snap people out of their slumber with some tough love. Jeff says people need to have hard conversations, because when you don’t, you end up disappointing vastly more people. I agree. Check out his book, “Your City is Sick,” and his website for more info.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
Many of us don’t like to think too much about banking and money until we REALLY need to. As an architect, I’m as guilty as anyone as not taking the time to think through the financial side, and to also get easily intimidated by it.
But it doesn’t have to be this way, truly. Money is just a tool, like any other tool, and it’s not hard to learn how to use it and to meet people who can help you become successful with money.
Landmark National Bank President & CEO Abby Wendel joins us, along with Commercial Banking Team Leader Jason Carter-Solomon, to talk banking and small-scale real estate development. Jason urges us to think hard about what our why? is in regards to what we’re doing. Abby talks a lot about her experience in banking and how a community bank in particular can help small business people become successful. All, of course, while navigating very turbulent times.
We talk through a number of challenges people face, including access to capital when getting started, time management for those doing “side hustles” in development, and if there are creative ways to package multiple small projects together from a financing standpoint. You might also learn why Dodge City, KS is a fascinating place.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
Patrick Tuohey is the Policy Director and co-founder of a think tank called the Better Cities Project. While his own views are politically right of center, the organization is non partisan and aims to give cities advice on the basics of good governance. He’s also an unabashed lover of cities, which is something not common in “Urbanist” circles.
We have a wide-ranging discussion, though largely focused on small government, free market principles and how Patrick sees things working or not in cities. We both live in a city that’s widely known for the extensive use of tax incentives for development, and we get into some of the challenges and realities of that approach. It’s a topic I’d love to explore even further, as it’s so embedded in our day to day reality and is very complex.
Patrick makes a number of really insightful observations in this episode. As someone who lives in a big city and is always trying to balance the ideal with the practical, it’s always fascinating talking with people with a strong sense of principle. It’s very easy to get lost in the minutiae of the day to day, and every so often it’s helpful to step away and look at the bigger picture.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
Rodney Dangerfield once famously said, “golf courses and cemeteries are the biggest wastes of prime real estate.” We won’t touch cemeteries in this episode, but we do talk about golf courses. Monte Anderson joins me as we discuss different ways of looking at so-called “obsolete” properties. As a teaser: Monte shares with me what I think is one of the most brilliant ideas I’ve heard about how to work with old or declining churches. You must listen to understand it.
The whole discussion reminded me of something I wrote about years ago:
About fifteen years ago, I remember reading a planning study for a corridor in Kansas City, Missouri, where I was living and working at the time. We were working with a client that had some redevelopment ideas in mind, and wanted to see what the officially-adopted plan recommended. Like many planning studies, it had a simple market analysis attached to it, with a look at recent trends in the real estate market and some projections for the future. As most planners know, this is typical plain-vanilla planning 101. The market study informs the plan recommendations, which eventually are codified into zoning and process.
One thing in particular struck me at the time: the economist’s report bemoaning the “substandard” lot sizes in the area. I had to read it a few times before it became clear the message was that any serious redevelopment would require purchase and combination of many lots into larger development parcels. The notion baked into this was the original lots, many of which were 50 feet wide and around 100 – 150 feet deep (some narrower, some wider), were too small to attract modern, big-boy development. If any developer was ever to be serious about investing, he or she would need something more like what is typical with modern real estate development products. What is typical? Often that means several acres of land in one parcel, so the site can be developed with the necessary large, singular building, sufficient parking, room for storm water improvements, landscaping and lighting. Even in an urban location, the bias toward suburban-style solutions was still very strong, but when urban buildings were desired the thought process was still only a large, single master developer could accomplish transformation. Frankly, most planners and economic developers didn’t know of or trust a different model. The design and development professions still largely cling to this approach.
Substandard, obsolete, these are words thrown around a lot by planners and economic development officials. But don’t buy it. Every property can be repurposed or rethought. In fact, Monte is the only person that’s ever made me look at an ugly strip mall and think, “yeah, I could make something cool with this.”
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
We often don’t realize that the “way things are” is just a reflection of some radical change that happened in a previous era. While I’m a firm believer that aspects of human nature haven’t really changed much through the millennia, it is true that we’ve shaped, reshaped, and reshaped our societies over and over again. And the most visible evidence of that change is our cities and towns.
Today’s discussion is about looking past the way things are, in many dimensions, and realizing that it is possible to make big changes. In fact, it happens at fairly regular intervals whether we want it or not.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
Rik Adamski is a man of many hats. But first and foremost, he’s someone that cares deeply about the people side of urban planning. So often, planners, architects and developers get mired in the technical side of building community. And of course, we have to, because there’s a lot that requires our attention.
But in this episode, Rik reminds us that planning is really about people, and about helping people make their own place better. The reason we fall in love with a place is more about what the people create themselves, and not what is imposed from above.
As an owner of Ash and Lime, and part of the Storefront Renaissance League, Rik focuses intently on the incremental steps to helping communities. One thing he mentioned in this that I loved is that incremental doesn’t necessarily mean small. It just means taking the next series of steps or bets.
Kevin’s Note: I’ve had some audio issues recently, I know it. I’m working on it. Thanks for listening regardless.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
From the earliest days of my interest in urban planning, I became very interested in the overlap between design and culture. By that I mean, how cities shape human interaction, and how human interaction shapes cities. Why are some places successful when others aren’t, even when they have similar design and planning features? Why do some communities seem so tight and together, when others do not? Is it all just a design problem, as I’ve been taught?
In fact, the obvious answer it’s not just a design problem. It’s also about how we relate to each other as humans, and the networks we form. Dr. Seth Kaplan is a true expert in this area, having studied and worked with fragile states all over the world. In 2023, he turned his attention to American cities and wrote the book, “Fragile Neighborhoods: Repairing American Society, One Zip Code at a Time.”
Seth and I talk in this episode about the overlap between design and a true sense of community. That is, we explore what it takes to create the kind of place that kids have broad independence, where people truly look out for each other, and where people feel deeply invested in its long-term success. I’ll tease out one piece, where he talks about the difference between people he is friends with in his neighborhood, versus people he has a relationship with. And, how important that is for a successful place, and for more fulfilled people.
Seth can be found here on his LinkedIn page, and you can see some of his writings here.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
I had the pleasure of meeting Charles Brewer right when he was starting to get interested in becoming a real estate developer. This was after a very successful short career in the dot-com world, as he was a founder of Mindspring. When he exited, he became interested in New Urbanism, and decided to shift his career toward the building of new, walkable communities.
Twenty-plus years later, we get a chance to talk about his journey. And, we get to spend a lot of time discussing Las Catalinas, his remarkable new town on the beach in Costa Rica. I wrote some about Las Catalinas, here, after a recent visit.
Charles is especially interesting in that he’s a firm believer in many of the principles of New Urbanism, but he’s also willing to challenge them and all of us who have worked on these communities. His first project, Glenwood Park in Atlanta, is a fantastic infill development by any realistic measure. Fascinatingly, he calls it “mainstream New Urbanism.”
For him, the real challenge and next frontier is figuring out how to create car-free (or mostly car-free) communities. Charles in particular has been very motivated by the experience of kids and families, and how to encourage and allow for more freedom of movement and life for them.
I’ll also just editorialize and say, his projects are a great testimony to the power of an individual’s passion to just get things done, and get them done well. Despite what outsiders and critics might think, these projects are very challenging. Part of the reason we have so few examples like them, is that it takes a rare kind of determination to go against virtually every professional silo in the built environment. Someone used to call this “stick-to-it-ive-ness.” It’s a quality I greatly admire in people, and I hope you do as well.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
It’s truly a rare thing in life to run across people that are uber-talented, thoughtful, and just fantastic human beings. Dhiru Thadani is one of those rare people.
An architect, urban designer, author, teacher, and prolific sketch artist, Dhiru has been involved in the New Urbanism movement since the earliest days. He’s written multiple books about the famous new town of Seaside, Florida, and we spend a bit of time rehashing some history on this episode for those that are unaware.
One of my most enjoyable lines from this talk, was Dhiru relating that “The most original architects have the largest libraries – that’s their secret.” In essence, we all steal from each other, and from history. Nothing is original; everything derives from something else. Some may find that statement stifling, but if you truly care about making beautiful places above all else, it’s actually liberating.
Dhiru and I talk about the possible future evolution of Seaside. Can it, in fact, evolve? Many of us that know and love Seaside as it is have a lot of heartburn with this notion. We hate seeing beloved buildings come down.
My editorial, though, is that this line of concern is really just a symptom of an era of horrible architecture. Our ancestors never felt this way, because older buildings (which often were attractive), were replaced by new buildings that were more attractive.
That all stopped with the advent of the modern movement in architecture – most notably the “international style.” Now, we just don’t have confidence that beauty can be replaced by beauty. We rightly fear that beauty will be replaced by ugliness. But in fact, we can build beautifully, and we have. People like Dhiru have been teaching us how to do so for more than forty years. It’s now incumbent on us to keep that fire burning.
For inspiration, check out Dhiru’s Instagram account, and pick up a pencil and draw.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
The world of architecture is full of megalomanicas, wanna-be stars, and also a whole lot of good people just grinding out beautiful work outside the spotlight. One thing I enjoy with my little platform is shining a light on some of the people that do that beautiful work, and rarely get national attention.
Don Powers, of Union Studio in Providence, Rhode Island, has one of those firms. Union Studio has grown over the years to do a lot of different kinds of work, but what I really wanted to focus on for this interview is their work in courtyard housing and affordable housing.
Educators and media within the architecture profession will routinely tell us we can’t build like the old ways, nor should we. And yes, of course, there’s some truth to the fact we have different materials, means and methods now. But Union Studio’s work shows us it is in fact possible to produce new buildings that build off of living human traditions, add grace and beauty to the world, and will certainly stand the test of the time. That’s as true for higher-end housing as it is for “affordable housing.” Good design is a choice, it’s an intention. In this episode, Don walks us through how they’ve made some of it happen.
Give the whole thing a listen, but do remember some key points: fight for those one or two good details on any project, including doors and windows. And, good landscaping is cheap. Don’t overlook the importance of simple, but good, site design.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
Austin Tunnell is one of the shining stars of a new generation of designer/builders for creative smaller projects, and he also happens to work in the world of mass masonry construction. In this episode, we talk about his journey from accountant to mason and beyond, with his really cool company called Building Culture.
Austin now lives and works in the Oklahoma City area, and he’s aggressively expanding his scope with a new project called The Townsend. Audio doesn’t really do these projects justice. You really need to look these up, and/or see them in person. Not to get too frou-frou, but they touch your soul in a way that most new buildings just do not.
Some links below:
Podcast with Clay Chapman
Podcast with the Mayor of Oklahoma City
Podcast with Hiatus Homes
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
It’s not often you run across people in the development world that have deep knowledge in both the smallest scales of projects and the biggest. The industry, like many, is very bifurcated. People who do small projects tend to keep doing small projects. People who work on really large projects tend to keep doing that for their careers.
Joe Perry, who works as his day job as the Vice President of Development for PortKC, has had one solid foot in both worlds for his entire career. We talk about what it’s like to exist in both realms, to prosper in both, and some key lessons learned. For anyone interested in house hacking or house flipping as a side gig, I’d highly recommend listening to Joe discuss what he’s done over a few decades.
Joe and I worked together on the New Longview project in Lee’s Summit, Missouri, and you can hear more about that in my interview with developer David Gale.
I really enjoy some of Joe’s advice to others, especially to young people. Stay tuned for the whole thing, it’s worth it.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe -
“Just do it. Do it as quickly as you can.” That’s the advice of architect Doug Moss, who came to doing small-scale development projects after working for three decades as an architect. Doug left small-town Texas to pursue a career in New York, and boomeranged back several years ago to pursue his dreams as a developer. Now living in Austin, Doug has a healthy side gig doing small projects in Taylor, Texas, where he grew up.
Doug and I met during the Small-Scale Developer Forum, which is a group Jim Heid gathers together twice per year. If you’re someone interested in improving your own community with development, these are your people. Doug still works as an architect with Steinberg Hart, but also does development with his company Public Sketch. Doug is such a modest guy, but this story is great inspiration for anyone who wants to use the professional skills they’ve learned to help a community they know and love.
Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.
Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.
Intro: “Why Be Friends”
Outro: “Fairweather Friend”
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