Episodios
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Step into the vibrant world of immersive art and music with Lima Brightlove, a multi-genre DJ and installation artist transforming Perth's creative landscape. In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis dives into Lima’s fascinating journey—from crafting large-scale interactive art pieces with reclaimed materials to collaborating on the groundbreaking Strange Festival. Discover how Lima’s innovative installations breathe new life into unexpected locations, creating communities where people can connect, linger, and explore.
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Lima on instagram; @ limabrightlove
This episode was recorded on 28 August 2024 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikToc: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
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00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. Owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, Lima, how are you going?
00:52 - Lima (Guest)
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant,
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
oh my goodness. Thank you so much for coming to Through the Creative Door. We're actually coming through another creative door in this beautiful space, but, yes, I'm so thrilled to be chatting with you. You are such a talented bear so that, for those that are listening, you are a multi-genre DJ and you play all around Perth and very loved, very loved. But also you are an immersive installation artist, which I'm very intrigued to delve into, because I feel like you will be the best person to describe what that encompasses, because I feel like that's quite massive, like that could be a lot of things, yep.
01:36 - Alexis (Host)
Just when I was chatting to you and organising this interview, I was so chuffed to hear that you were involved in the Strange Festival which I was so lucky enough to just fall upon when I was living in Perth, which is this. For those that don't know, how about you describe what that festival is?
01:56 - Lima (Guest)
Sure, no dramas. So hi everyone. My name's Lima, I'm an immersive installation artist, and what that means is I create art that's interactive. It means most of it tends to be on the larger scale and all of it comes out of ideas, out of my head, and I only work with reclaimed and repurposed materials as well.
02:24 - Alexis (Host)
That resonates with me so much I love that.
02:29 - Lima (Guest)
So three years ago, Strange Festival. The festival directors wanted to bring more people into the CBD in the middle of winter, at a time when nobody, especially in hot, sunny Perth, wants to go out. The first year I actually worked on the doors of Strange Festival. I was one of their ushers and pedestrian traffic wranglers and I loved it so much that the following year I put together a proposal and did an artist submission. So never one to do things by halves. I collaborated with two other artists. We had an enormous space, close to maybe a hundred square meters or so, that we turned into an experimental music ambient lounge, chill space. I built four secret rooms. There were just so many hidden little puzzles and things to see and do and find.
03:39 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening, the beautiful thing was that this festival happened with all of the sort of shop fronts and warehouse spaces and all of these spaces that were vacant in the city and they were just like turned into these magic wonderlands as this festival. It is just like I said, I stumbled upon it and I was just like taken into another world, being like I've just like walked off you know a main street in the CBD of Perth and suddenly I'm in this like mystical. What is happening? Yeah, fantastic.
04:11 - Lima (Guest)
So each artist gets allocated a yeah, like an empty shop in the CBD. Strange works very, very hard with other stakeholders in the CBD to have access to these empty spaces and fill them full of art for 10 days. You know we're so lucky to have that kind of support, you know, from commercial, from the commercial sector. We, I guess, you know, in some ways we wanted to, we wanted it to, we wanted the retail sector to feel inspired and invigorated as well. There are some very dead spaces in the city which I think don't add to your civic pride or anything like that. So, yeah, I was so, so excited when I was chosen as one of the first artists last year to do something like that. Yeah, it was really exciting. And then this year I thought to myself well, if I can do it with, you know, like a team of people, maybe I can do this on my own as well. And, you know, maybe I could produce all the art that's in. You know that I want to exhibit inside it. Yeah, and I did. It's amazing.
05:29
Yeah, everyone loves the treasure map. I call it. You get, you get given. You know, you get given a little. You know a five piece of paper that has all the empty location, all the you know locations, the venues, mapped down on it. It's your job to uncover, find them all. Yeah, it's so cool.
05:48 - Alexis (Host)
I love that element of it. It's like the adult treasure hunt.
05:55 - Lima (Guest)
It's so great we call it the art trail. Everyone knows what an art trail is. This is an art trail that has a bit of an element of mystery about it. You never know who's doing what part of the trail at what time, so you do run into the same people sometimes. And, yeah, it's, it's a. It's a lot of fun, it's a lot of fun. They expanded last year, and this year as well, into live music, so they created a live music venue out of the basement of the Carillion, which used to be the food court, so they were putting on bands in an abandoned food court, and they also had a pop-up cinema as well, which, yeah, had some incredible food offerings that were only for strange. So it was popcorn seasoning, strange popcorn, and, yeah, it all it was. It was such an amazing way to, yeah, I guess, show people what local people can do 100% locals, like all people from Perth.
06:53 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, amazing. This might be a hard question to ask because, obviously, being a DJ and then also installing art in the way that you do. But what does a creative space mean to you and why?
07:12 - Lima (Guest)
I love this question. I love this question. Let's go back to you know, talking about working with reclaimed and repurposed materials. So I love working in unusual locations that have, I guess, certain boundaries or parameters around them If you're working in a space. So I'll give you an example the empty shop front that I was allocated this year for Strange had seven power points in the wrong room in the wrong room. So our first challenge was to run power from one space into another space through a gap between the wall and the window which was about maybe four and a half centimetres wide.
07:59
So when we go into some of these pre-loved, you know, spaces, part of our creativity is the problem-solving. You know that goes into, okay, the idea that I have in my head. Now the execution. You know I have to, I have to find a way through this, through this. Yeah, even things like you know you never know what ceiling height you're going to get. You never know.
08:26
You know I had grand plans to do a lot of stuff hanging from the ceiling, but a lot of the ceiling panels that I was working with were so fragile and, you know, not capable of taking the weight that I wanted, so we brought in some trussing instead, which had winch winches on it. So we wound up the trussing, you know, hung my three meter western ground parrot off it. I built a three meter bird for this out of a cafe blind, which is one of those big plastic things that stops the rain from coming in on a veranda, and a whole bunch of soft plastics, yeah. So in the style of faux stained glass, yeah, we winched up this enormous bird, yeah, and dressed it and put heaps and heaps of. I guess we built these trees out of fallen branches and things and, yeah, we brought all the outside to the inside.
09:25 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, so creating space to you is forever changing, depending on what the project is.
09:32 - Lima (Guest)
Absolutely. I guess one of the things that I like to do in my installations is I really like to have an entry and an exit point. A lot of gallery spaces are just kind of like, you know, they throw you into this big empty room, you know, and you do wander around on your own and, you know, choose where you want to go, but people being people, they kind of just all migrate to the same thing. What I like. It's almost like I'm building a mini art trail inside an art trail, like people come into one of my venues and they do follow a bit of a path, but every zone that they're walking through, every artwork that they stop at, has opportunities to stay and opportunities to interact.
10:16
Yeah, and we have people that sometimes get to the end and go oh, I'm not ready to leave yet. They turn around and they go back in. Yeah, and I get a lot of people who just stay, and that is exactly what I want to do. You know my whole ethos around putting creativity into an empty space. You know I want it to be a place where people feel like they can stay, feel like they belong, feel like they have a place where, you know, they have that sense of belonging and yeah, and they're in part of a mini community in there.
10:50 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I love that. What a beautiful answer. Oh, I adore it. What is something that you're proud of creating and how did it come about?
11:05 - Lima (Guest)
I recently worked on a NAIDOC week project with a venue called the Rechabite in Northbridge in the city. Here in Perth we're on I forgot to say as well, look, we're on Wadjuk Noongar country here. I just want to recognize that, pay our respects to the elders past, present and emerging. It was really special being invited to dress three venues inside one building for NAIDOC week with full blessings from the First Nations folks that we were working with, the thing that I'm super proud of directing the theme for our event. So there was in the main hall there was a large party going on with performances 100% First Nations, of course. On the rooftop we had DJs and market stalls and sensory activities going on, and then in the main bar area there was a media wall set up with blue carpet not red carpet, blue carpet, and the blue carpet was a deliberate move. The theme of this whole event was we Are the River Inunga, ngaalak, nidja, milyar, and so the whole thing was river themed Swan River, durbal, yarragan. Very, very important resting place for the Woggle Rainbow Serpent, as it's called in the culture, and for the main entrance of Rechab ite, which is, if you imagine, like a kind of an oldie grand heritage staircase. You know that kind of leads you up and then has two little staircases peeling off. At the top we built a river along the balustrading using all you know bits of blue shade cloth and pool coverings and and then I ran blue LED lights all the way through it. That chased each other and, you know, created flow up the staircase. We had two mannequins at the front. One was wrapped in indigenous flags, again with full blessings, and the other one was wrapped in Torres Strait Islander colours, and we did the whole thing with as much native greenery as we could get our hands on.
13:27
I'm really proud of my team for running with these creative ideas and the vision that I had for this Part of it always feels a bit, I feel, very humbled by the amount of creativity my installers and my volunteers bring to the team as well, bring to the art. So, on the one hand, you know I am definitely in there up to my elbows and on my hands and knees with them. On the other hand, I can also walk away from that to direct something else or to, you know, talk to a different team that's looking after rooftop bunting, for example, bunting being the fabric flags, and I know that the team that I've left behind doing plastics is absolutely going to keep going ahead with the right visio. So, um, yeah, that's I'm really, really proud of. We also only had 13 days to pull off nadoc weeks. So, yeah, right, we were under the pump. Yeah, we were really under the pump to come up with the concept, the design, the execution, yeah, and then, yeah, sort it all out.
14:29 - Alexis (Host)
Part of the beauty and we spoke off mic about this is about that sort of in the middle of a project, where you know sometimes you're like, oh my goodness, can we get this across the line? And sometimes it's the time pressures or the ideas or, yeah, like you said, the circumstance, the locations, but there's something really beautiful about the being able to rally together and just still deliver, with all of that in the middle.
15:07 - Lima (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, definitely. And, look, I want, I need to be able to trust my team. I also need them to be able to trust me as well. You know, because there are times when we have to make really crunchy decisions on something that might have been set in stone and I might have to, you know, cut it in half, for example, and say, look, I said we were going to do a, b and C, but actually we've only got time to do a and B. We're going to have to leave out C. You know, and you're going to have to trust me on this, that it's still going to be just as good. Yeah, but doing that sort of stuff, you know, like, yeah, just, I guess you can't do it without a team. You really can't, you really can't.
15:46 - Alexis (Host)
So, yeah, this is probably a good segue, maybe into what do you think has challenged your creativity and what do you think the major lesson was?
16:01 - Lima (Guest)
Good question, good question. As an installation artist like the, the challenges of working with reclaimed and repurposed materials. One of the challenges is that you can't just go out to the shop and buy another one. If I found something on the side of the road, I can't go back to that same spot. To me, that's a challenge that's worth doing because it extends you in ways that you wouldn't normally. Sometimes it's great when you have materials that you know are going to keep coming in Cardboard, for example, you know we go to. You can go to the back of any good guy's shop and help yourself to as much cardboard as you like. But yeah, when it's something that you know is precious, that you know is rare, or that you know is really integral to your artwork, is really integral to delivering your concept, but there's only 30 centimetres of it available, you know the pressure's on. You've got to rise to that challenge. Yeah, yeah, there is no second chance with that.
17:15 - Alexis (Host)
Do you think there's also some kind of like beauty in that, though, that you only have one crack?
17:21 - Lima (Guest)
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I never thought that I'd be drawing parallels with this style of visual arts and music, which is what my background is. You know, I've been a musician since I was five. The live element of that and having only one crack at it, you know, is often what drives us as musicians. But in visual arts, what I found was that, working with reclaimed materials, I found that same drive, I found that same spark, you know, wanting to do my absolute best, you know, to really honour this material that I only have a small piece of, or 30 centimetres of, or that I know will be you know, a really important part of this.
18:07 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I love that. And it’s so true. All you can do is be prepared as you possibly can be and it will fall where it may. Whether that's art or music, yeah. Now if you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold, to another creative or another human being, what would it be?
18:36 - Lima (Guest)
I think it would be, find your people. Surround yourself with the people who do egg you on, who make you feel like you want to be bigger and better than what you've just done. Who make you feel like you're capable of more. Some years ago I'd been living in Perth for a very long time and I was going down a path with music that I thought I wanted you know, festivals, heading into clubs, that sort of thing but I wasn't happy and I wasn't getting the job satisfaction from it. And at the time I thought it was because I was angry at Perth, I was angry at where I was for not being able to deliver that to me. So I uprooted myself and I moved, you know, over east and I'm gonna, you know, do this differently and it's gonna be a whole new experience, and it was a whole new experience.
19:43
But during COVID I was forced to move back to Perth, as a lot of people were, and I had the opportunity to start again and to restart my music career and what I found was that when I reached out in different ways to different people who aligned more with my values rather than what I thought was my career trajectory. Man, amazing things started to happen. That's how I ended up in places like this, Like in. We're sitting here in, you know, a beautiful bar that is queer friendly, that is welcoming and accepting, arts friendly and I wasn't connecting with those parts of myself that felt fired up about that, and so I wasn't reaching out to those people. Now I know I know how to recognise that little, that little burn inside me that goes oh, I love this and I want to work with you and, yeah, I want to support your gigs or your exhibitions, or you know your ideas as well um, and let's find ways to do that yes,
21:07 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my goodness, I'm so glad that you came back to Perth and that you found your people,yay! I’m curious, would you have any advice if anyone wanted to do what you do in any way, shape or form? Would you have any suggestions of resources or materials that one could read, watch, attend?
21:30 - Lima (Guest)
Yes, there's courses you can do. They're quite heavily marketed online. They're aimed at curators, installation artists, but the things that I found the most helpful wasn't necessarily reading about what other people did or looking at it on Instagram. It was going and being immersed in other people's immersive art and it was being on that, receiving end of the immersion and then coming out of it going. How did I feel about that? And if I was to do something that evoked a similar depth or frequency of feeling in someone else, how would I go about that and what would I want to do? The examples that come to my head are and they're pretty famous examples around the world.
22:23
Teamlab do some incredible work in the digital space and as well as the 3D immersive space as well. They work a lot with projections as well, and the other one that I find really intriguing is Meow Wolf. So Meow Wolf build worlds within worlds within worlds, so you can walk into one of their, I guess, fake supermarkets and there will be a refrigerator that actually turns out to be a door into another room, which is another world, that has neon cats in garbage bags. You pull a pram out and there's a slide in a tunnel that goes to another world. Oh my goodness. Going to places like this, where people built worlds inside worlds, really, really made me go. This is what I want to do, yeah yeah.
23:32
My all-time favourite festival is a teeny, tiny little festival called The Town in rural Victoria. About 2,000 people go every year, set way up in the Upper Gippsland Mountains, and it's actually it's called the town because the whole festival is themed as a town. The whole festival is themed as a town. So there is a fake, Well, there is a real post office and there's a Centrelink and there's shops and there's a bakery, yeah. So yeah, there's lots of ways that you can theme things without necessarily heading into sort of like cosplay or, you know, like augmented reality territory. You can theme things using your imagination and you can create.
24:30 - Alexis (Host)
Sometimes you need that external to unlock it yeah, yeah.
24:35 - Lima (Guest)
Um, the fantasy is as good as you want it to be yeah, oh, that's a good line that is a good line.
24:43 - Alexis (Host)
One last question, if you could hear someone come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why?
24:54 - Lima (Guest)
Oh my god, I'm so excited to answer this question. I'm so excited to answer this question. I spoke about a little festival called The Town that really inspired me to be an installation artist the creative director and founder of the Town, Michael Scarlett. If I heard an interview like this of his, I would be over the moon. Yeah, I would love, love to find out what. I would love to see what goes on in Michael's head to be able to produce the types of events that he does immersive events that he does.
25:31 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. Well, I will just have to see what I can do to make that happen.
25:37 - Lima (Guest)
Please do Please do, please do. I guess you know a lot of just in closing, when people would come through my exhibits. They come through and they're often, you know, sort of awestruck and then they say, so, where did all this come from? And I said, well, it came from inside my head. All the things that you're seeing are the ideas from inside my head. Out of my head, yeah, and you know it's. It's such an honor to be able to do things like that, to feel like some people are enjoying the things that I come up with in my head.
26:18 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my goodness, and it's such a beautiful gift that we have as artists to be able to share what's going on in our head and be able to give it to others.
26:28 - Lima (Guest)
Look, that's something that artificial intelligence is never, ever going to be able to replicate no, that's very true. Never, ever. Not in a million years. Yeah, I feel really excited for, yeah, what's going to come up next?
26:40 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. Well, I can't wait to see what you do next. It's just you're already doing amazing things and I'm just so chuffed. Thank you so much for coming through the creative door. It's been an absolute pleasure. You are such a gem.
26:55 - Lima (Guest)
My pleasure Alexis, thanks for having me.
27:00 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community and we'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
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In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis sits down with Blake Williams, a true creative powerhouse from Perth, Western Australia. Blake wears many hats, from his role as a radio announcer at Mix94.5 to being the director of Williams Creative, frontman and manager of corporate band PROOF, and producer/host of the nationally broadcasted music interview show The Scene. They dive into Blake's diverse career, exploring how he balances multiple creative roles and what keeps him inspired and moving forward. Whether it's his insights on managing creativity in the music industry, his thoughts on building meaningful collaborations and connections, or his approach to staying grounded in the chaos of it all, Blake shares his wealth of knowledge with energy and optimism.
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Blake on Instagram: @ blakewilliams_au
This episode was recorded on 27 August 2024 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
…
Creative resources from Blake Williams:
@ williamscreativeco
@ thescenemusictv
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikToc: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—-------------------
00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. Owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Hello Blake
00:51 - Blake (Guest)
Hello Alexis. How are you doing?
00:53 - Alexis (Host)
I'm so good I am all sorts of emotions right now. I'm very, very chuffed that you said yes to coming onto Through the Creative Door.
01:04 - Blake (Guest)
Well, listen, we're talking about creativity, which is something that I do every day, that a lot of people do every day, and it's good to talk about.
01:12 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening. I need to at least even remotely touch the sides with your creative ventures, because you are such a talented bear.
01:21 - Blake (Guest)
I've been around for a while.
01:23 - Alexis (Host)
No, you just. I love that you are such an advocate for the arts but more importantly, you have demonstrated just how much of an advocate you are for live music and for musicians in Western Australia, which, as a musician, it's so lovely to have people that are advocating and pushing that forward. But that is one of many things that you do. Music is your first love, like you're a musician, you're the front man and the manager and everything of the corporate band Proof.
01:57 - Blake (Guest)
Correct.
01:57 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my God, you're an MC, you do radio, but you also do work for ABC sporadically as well.
02:04 - Blake (Guest)
I mean, I think I mean I've been doing this for, you know, 18 years, something around about there and you end up doing a lot of different things and it all kind of seems like the same thing after a while. So, yeah, I'm on air with Mix, I do some freelance stuff with ABC for whatever shows they've got going on. We have a show on Foxtel Music, director of Channel 7's Telethon, run a company called Williams Creative which is half agency, half creative company, and we can talk about what that does because it's a big part of my life. Plus, yeah, proof the Band, and I'm exhausted just thinking about it, to be honest.
02:37
But it's all music, it's all performance, it's all about pushing an industry forward and that's the performance side of my life. There's the other side, which is the advocacy side of not only music but also entertainment, arts and events, and so recently, as the president of the EIA, which is the Event Industry Association, which is all about putting events in front of government and going how do we get funding? How do we change legislation? How do we get grants? How do we make sure that creatives get grants that don't just, you know, fall by the wayside? So there's a lot of things that kind of fill the diary. But it's all positive and it's all in service of arts.
03:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, and I think that is the beautiful spark that you have, that that light that you're shining across the world is genuinely that. That is your massive motivator is just pushing the arts forward.
03:30 - Blake (Guest)
Well, thank you, I appreciate it. It's about getting people. I mean it. It never ceases to amaze me that you know, you walk down to the Ellington on a Tuesday night and you see a world class jazz act and you go. This could be on the streets of New York, this could be anywhere in the world, but it's right here in Perth, the most isolated place on the planet. And it's hard because these artists could be anywhere, but they're playing here and to get that appreciation for what they're doing is difficult.
03:51
And in a time when people's lives are so fragmented with the endless amount of entertainment, there are functions on Netflix which are just play something. I don't even want to know what it is, just play something. And when you're competing against so many different streaming services and different mediums, it's really hard to get people to focus on local art sometimes, and people just need to be reminded that this stuff is world class and you can see it any time of the week. And I will go to my deathbed pushing the same message. That's one thing they teach you in PR Find a message and stick to it and that’s what I’ve stuck to.
04:31 - Alexis (Host)
What a message it is. So my first question and you might have multiple answers, but what does a creative space mean to you and why?
04:41 - Blake (Guest)
Creative space. I think, yeah, it's going to be a fragmented answer because I think about sort of what I do and every, every avenue I would have, whether it's this radio studio or a tv studio or something on stage. I mean, they're all in different spaces and they're all completely different and require a different approach, have a different outcome, have a different approach, have a different outcome, have a different budget, have a different set of client expectations. And I think for me, what I've learned over the years is to take my creativity with me wherever I need to be. So this, for example so we're in a radio studio.
05:19
When we're on air, I might have 15 seconds to make a creative break or a creative hook, or jump in between two songs and do something creative for 15 seconds. That's a very different task than being on stage for 45 minutes and creating a 45-minute creative set. So every location has a different set of parameters. I would love to have a creative space in terms of a creative share space office for the company, which is part of our plan in the future. But I think I've discovered over the years that I need to be able to get into my creative spot quickly, no matter where it might be, because sometimes it can be a really boring place. You could be in a pitch, in a whiteboard room with people who are not creative and you need to bring that and you need to show them why they should believe in your vision or hand over a lot of money or whatever the case is, or trust their brand with your crazy idea, and so inspiring people in different circumstances has become a skill set that I've developed over the years, simply because you're given so many different rooms to work in and you need to make it work, no matter where you are.
06:30 - Alexis (Host)
Was there anything that sort of helped you, sort of ground yourself? Was there any tools or anything that you used to help you find that?
06:40 - Blake (Guest)
I think if I kind of work backwards from things. So if I need, let's talk about, say, a creative pitch because we're doing a lot of that in our company, Williams Creative, at the moment where a client will go, we've got a certain amount of money and we want the end result to be a seven minute performance and hitting all of these different markers Go away and come up with a pitch. And sometimes these things are so ambiguous and you spend so much time with just a word. They go okay, base it around the word whatever, and so you come up with three or four different ideas and you then take those ideas into a room and you present those ideas. And I think working backwards and re-inspiring myself when I'm in the pitch moment is really important, because sometimes you'll do all of the creative work months before you do a pitch and then you walk into the pitch room and you're quite disconnected from that project now because you did it.
07:35
So long ago and so we're having this really long lead time. So for me to get myself back into that moment, I would just spend an hour and go through the end result that I want it to be and then back to my processes and how I came to decisions on things and why we should use that color or why that song works, or we're changing this song into this key. We're taking it a major, we're making it into a minor and there's a reason behind it and just getting myself reacquainted and getting myself excited for what I want it to be and hopefully that then it comes down to the communication in the room. Can you sell it? And having different, I think, people.
08:13
Another thing is people in that kind of space. They're often not creatives, the people you're selling these things to, so you can't go in with a lot of words. You need to go with different media. So we'll have a video or imagery or mood boards or sound samples so that one of these things might hit a nerve. Yeah, having different ways to approach the same thing is important from a sales point of view, but, yeah, just being able to jump in and feel excited about your ideas.
08:42 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. It's such a frame of mind for you to go into each of these spaces.
08:48 - Blake (Guest)
I think a frame of mind is a good way to frame it, because Pun intended, pun intended.
08:53
Puns always intended. Because I think you know being a creative means you need to be adaptable and you're not always going to be able to do exactly what you want all of the time. Sometimes you will have a creative project that is yours and you can do whatever you want to, but often, in the world of budgets and having companies and making enough money to pay payroll, which is what we have to do in our company you need to work within parameters that are set for you, and so being able to go in clearly, consciously, and create an idea and run with an idea and jump into that moment is really important.
09:34 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing, amazing. Your lifespan of creative ventures is huge, but is there one thing in particular that you can pinpoint that you're most proud of creating, and how did that come about?
09:49 - Blake (Guest)
I'm really proud of the company we've created around being creative. I mean, the company is called Williams Creative it's right there in the title and I think I've worked in a range of different situations where I haven't enjoyed the people I've had to work with, and that happens every now and then. You might have a project and it's really hard, or you feel like your back's up against the wall and ideas aren't landing, or, whatever the case is, when we started this company two years ago, we really had the opportunity to build it from the ground up in the way that I wanted it to be and the people I wanted to involve round up in the way that I wanted it to be and the people I wanted to involve. And I think now we're at this beautiful point where we have amazing talented people around us, which is one thing, but also people I want to work with and want to work with people again and again because they're good people, and I wish there had been an opportunity for me many years ago to be in something like that, because I think I have always not every project, but a majority of projects I've worked on in my life.
10:51
I've started so I wanted a TV show. No one would give me the opportunity, so I started it myself. I wanted a radio show. No one would. I did it myself. I've simply been in that mode for so long because I haven't. You know, it's not that I'm difficult to work with. I think the opposite, to be honest. But there's you need to back yourself sometimes and do things the way that you see them playing out, and I'm really proud of the way that we've created the company now that we have these great people around us and it's facilitated some really amazing projects.
11:27 - Alexis (Host)
Well said. On the flip side of things that you're proud of, I'm intrigued what you can share about something that's challenged your creativity, and what do you reckon the major lesson of that was?
11:43 - Blake (Guest)
Yeah, okay. So I think live performance often goes awry. I mean there are things, there are processes I've put in place over the years to negate things going wrong as best I can. Things always do go wrong, but it's trying to limit that or at least have plans again to prepare for things to go wrong. But I think, from a challenging creative point of view, sometimes the big concept pieces can be really hard to finalize a concept for.
12:16
So there was one actually, particularly a few years ago, where we had been approached by a company to do a big opening performance for them. So two performances actually on this one night. The brief I was given was one word. I had a one word brief, one word that I had to make everything connect to, and they'd given me a fairly good budget to do it. And I nothing, nothing came like, just nothing at all, and I would spend. I'd go okay, today's the day, I'm going to finalize a basic concept today. Nothing would happen. I would spend an hour on it, I'd spend two hours on it. I would try the technique of like I'm going to think about it when I go to sleep. When I wake up, there's going to be an idea there. Nothing would happen.
12:55
And I was about a week away from having to do this pitch and I had zero, just not even an inkling about what I was going to do. And then it starts to build and you get, you feel pressure, and you feel stress, like what if I actually can't think of anything? What if this concept is, or this word that I need to bring everything back to is just too esoteric and I can't make something for it? And so I said to my wife, I said to Lisa we need to go away, we need to need to get, I need to, I need a change of scenery, I need to get out of the studio, I need to get out of work, I need to get out of Perth.
13:25 - Alexis (Host)
Something's got to change.
13:28 - Blake (Guest)
I need a fresh perspective. So we went down south and the word that I needed to bring everything back to was the word flourish. And we went and stayed in this little cottage in Boronup Forest and in Margaret River and I walked out in the morning and I walked through these trees that were scorched. There'd been a bushfire that had come through and little pops of green were coming through these trees and I sat there for ages and I was like, wait a minute, a little tiny spark of an idea. And from there we sat down, we had a couple of bottles of wine, we went through a bunch of different ideas based on the surroundings that we were in, and eventually, by the time we got home and we drove home thinking about ideas, we got home, put a concept together and it's probably one of the best I think we've ever come up with, but only because I think sometimes you need to force yourself into a different perspective. If things aren't working, that's okay, Pause it. You don't have to solve all of those problems right now. Get up, go to a different spot, go to a different place, try a different technique, a different angle spot. Go to a different place. Try a different technique, a different angle. You know, try something different that you haven't done.
14:30
So for me, on that particular situation, I needed to be geographically removed from where I was and I actually brought this up when I did the pitch. I said I couldn't think of anything and I did this. I went to this other place and then this idea came and someone in the meeting said yeah, but that idea only came to you because you were willing to accept an idea. It's not. If you had been down there all the time would you have seen what was there?
14:54
And I thought it's really interesting how being in a different headspace and being somewhere physically different can bring up different creative ideas. And then it's recognizing that that is an idea and then running with it. And I remember thinking there was like a little tiny spark light bulb moment that went off and went wait a minute, what about this? And that was the start of the entire performance that we ended up putting together, which had about 40 creatives in it on stage, so a big piece that we ended up putting together. So, yeah, it's amazing where that inspiration can hit, but you have to be open and willing to change things up and be flexible.
15:31 - Alexis (Host)
And I do think it's like you know, one of the parts of being a creative is being able to apply yourself and spend the time and be, you know, present in that space to lock yourself away. But we all still need to live a life and otherwise like you said you're not open to being inspired by anything outside.
15:51 - Blake (Guest)
Yeah, it's, I don't. When you find out how to do that, let me know.
15:56 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I don't know about that. Oh, my goodness.
15:59 - Blake (Guest)
I, we the uh being separating creativity, or separating this kind of work from normal life is incredibly hard, and I don't know anyone that nails it. To be honest, I don't know how you can switch it off and switch it back on. It seeps into every part of your life, but it's hard. It's really hard, especially what I find when we're in pitch mode and everything is to do with a show you're putting together and it doesn't have to be a creative pitch like this, it could be a theatre show. You know, I think it's really natural to get all consumed by these things that you put together, because they are intrinsic to who you are, and, at the end of the day, you're going to be on stage and you need to deliver it, and so you need to live it, eat it and breathe it. That's an important part of it, right?
16:48 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, so true. Now, do you have something sentimental, or is there possibly an object that you can't live without while you're coming up with creative things or working? And what might that be, and why?
17:06 - Blake (Guest)
No, I don't think there is. To be honest, I think again because the creative jobs that I have take me to completely different places with different parameters. There's not something that I come back to again and again. I think if I was doing and I've been religious about these sorts of things before Like, if I was doing a lot of writing when I was younger, when I was at high school, I remember the first thing I did was it was drama and we would write short stories or plays or skits or whatever the case was, and that's what I loved.
17:40
I loved, you know, Monty Python and Fawlty Towers and these sort of, you know, skit-based comedy things. Yes, you know, you'd start an idea and sometimes it would be shit and sometimes it might be half okay, but there was definitely a process in that and we would write every one in the same like journal. It was part of the religiousness of doing something like that and creating something. So if I was doing one thing, I think I would have things that I would go back to, but because in a day I might work on five different projects in five different locations with five different people, there's nothing that I bring myself to.
18:13 - Alexis (Host)
Don't have any lucky socks. I don't.
18:15 - Blake (Guest)
And, to be honest, it's the lucky socks that's been the secret to my success, my Coles $2.50 lucky socks. But I think I actually I purposefully change up my schedule and I don't like to get stuck in the same way of doing things. I like to change the way that I do things, quite often to the point where it can frustrate other people. In theatre, in the theatre world everyone they call it tracks in theatre. So your character track and you leave your green room at a certain point. You go to a certain point on stage. You never change your track. So everyone knows for the backstage choreography.
18:54 - Alexis (Host)
They know exactly where you're going to be at what time. 100% Perfect.
18:57 - Blake (Guest)
When we were doing We Will Rock You at Crown, I would change where I would start not on stage, but I would go to my dressing room at a different time. I would get my mic at a different time. I'd get my makeup at a different time. I never liked to be in the same process. I would change it up every single show. So I never felt comfortable. I never felt complacent and I think that's a big thing for the way I like to operate. I like to be on the edge all the time. It's not good for anxiety and it's not good for trying to sleep after gigs. That's just the way it works. It's just the way it works. I know it's not good. Don't use that advice.
19:35 - Alexis (Host)
What did I say? Do as I say, not as I do. That's right.
19:37 - Blake (Guest)
Yeah, these are all the mistakes I've made.
19:42 - Alexis (Host)
Well, that is a great segue into my next question.
19:46 - Blake (Guest)
What other mistakes have you made? Top 10 bad things to do.
19:52 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative, what would it be?
20:00 - Blake (Guest)
I think sometimes the most simple things are what I always come back to. I think with creativity there's two things. One, don't aim for perfect, especially with creative projects. If you aim to be perfect, you are going to find a million reasons to stop something because it simply isn't there. And John Cleese said this a million times. He was like it's the death of creativity, trying to be perfect.
20:26
I think just go with an idea and just see where it takes you and at the end of the day, like, have fun with it. Creativity is a. You know there are times when things are serious and you know, depending on what you're trying to do and the art piece you're trying to make and sure, on those times you know, sure, be respectful and be mindful. But I think for a lot of the time we can get so carried away with needing to get to a deadline or what a client expectation, or how are we going to make this work in a budget and it's all this pressurized situation. But sometimes just have fun.
21:00
Just most of the best ideas I think I've ever had have been stupid. And then you bring them back from a crazy point like start at 11 and you might end up at a 7, which is probably where it should be. So, yeah, just don't, don't take it too seriously all the time. And the other thing for me is and we kind of mentioned this earlier do the work, and the work will take care of itself, like I it's. It is saved me hundreds of times in shows and in whole range of different types of shows, so not just at a band gig or an MC thing or you know, live on air or whatever the case is Like. If it saved me constantly, if I prepare to, if I prepare knowing that something is going to fail when it does invariably fail and it will, you've got a backup plan and you don't have to freak out in that moment in front of you know however many people are watching. So they're my little nuggets of advice.
21:54 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my God, they're such good ones. If someone wanted to develop their creative process, yes, like, do what you do in all of the.
22:08 - Blake (Guest)
I'm too far down this path now to turn around. You're like I can't change it now. I can't.
22:17 - Alexis (Host)
Is there any resources that you would recommend?
22:22 - Blake (Guest)
You know, I think sometimes the best place to start or not to start, do some investigation and some research first but is to go to the people that you really admire the work of and ask them questions. People are a lot more willing to give time than I think people think. People go these guys, these ladies. There's so much work, they've got so much on their calendar, they couldn't give me 10 minutes and I guarantee well, maybe not guarante.
22:47 - Alexis (Host)
Can I have that in writing?
22:50 - Blake (Guest)
Sure, sure, I think invariably, people are happy to discuss and help people out and answer questions, as long as I think this is what the person asking the question needs to be. They need to be organized, need to be punctual, they need to do all of that stuff so that you are using the least amount of time possible. And I'm happy to answer questions from people who go, hey, how did you do this, or how did this work, or where would you recommend I start on this particular thing, because it's really hard and I've been lucky in things that I've done but it's come with a lot of hard work to get places and a lot of people to convince of things, and there's gatekeepers at every part of every industry and you continually need to work around them. And you know, I'm a male 40-year-old guy and it's been hard for me and there's a lot of advantage to being a male 40-year-old guy, so it's hard for everybody to get where they want to go.
23:43
But there are people out there that are absolutely willing to answer questions and to help people, because for me, at the end of the day, I want an arts industry, a media industry, a music industry to be the best possible version of itself that it can be, and the only way to get to that spot is to be a bit more open with answering questions and helping people up. I really don't get this whole. Well, I did the hard yards, you do the hard yards, I mean. Yes, we all have done hard yards and they're intrinsic to being a great artist. I think you know you need to do the shit gigs, you need to have the rejections. They're a really important part of the process, but to a degree, you know, at some point you also need to help people up.
24:23 - Alexis (Host)
But being authentic and being open to your community to share knowledge is not giving things on a silver platter for someone else.
24:31 - Blake (Guest)
That's very true
24:33 - Alexis (Host)
It's purely just. You know, if people want to have knowledge, eat it up and run with it. Like you said, there are people there that if you are willing to ask, they're willing to deliver
24:38 - Blake (Guest)
Yeah, that's right. 100% and you know, yes, the failures are a really important part of any process in any industry, and I think, especially in performance, because at the end of the day, you will be on stage and you will have to deliver. And if you can't, and you're not ready, or whatever the case is, then you will fail and it will hurt and you may not want to get back up again. That's why you don't aim for the stars straight away. You build yourself incrementally. So you've got these little scars and they'll be okay. You'll be okay when you get knocked down.
25:17
But, yeah, asking questions and getting more information and having a bit more knowledge about why you're choosing things and how to get to a destination is really important. There's absolutely no roadmap for this industry. I don't really know anyone who is doing what I'm doing, but there are people out there. But I would love to have conversations with other creatives, kind of like what you are doing, and ask how did you get there, or how did this work, or why did that fail, or why did this succeed? What specifically about it worked so well or didn't work well? And it's possibly a conversation that you know, maybe through a podcast like this, people are more willing to talk about things, but it's just have a conversation. Yeah, people are happy to answer questions, mostly.
26:05 - Alexis (Host)
One extra question for you.
26:06 - Blake (Guest)
Okay, sure.
26:08 - Alexis (Host)
If you could hear anyone come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why?
26:14 - Blake (Guest)
Who would it be? So I was having a look at the people that you've had on here and it's great. So they cover a variety of different disciplines, and I think I would like to see someone from a theatre background. Have you had a theatre director?
26:35 - Alexis (Host)
No, I have not yet.
26:36 - Blake (Guest)
I would like to see someone in that world. Because I think, like theatre is the culmination of so many disciplines. You know you've got acting, you know dancing, music, musicality, but also all of the other things stage design and direction and budgeting and tour planning and it kind of is like I see it, as if you can make a theatre show work with 100 moving parts 35 times a month. You've kind of got some stuff figured out and there's a lot of people that do a really good job in that space. So I'd like to see some theatre directors, I think.
27:12 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, Blake, thank you so much for coming on Through the Creative Door. This has been just a dream.
27:18 - Blake (Guest)
Thank you so much for having me and thanks for coming down to the studio. I didn't have to go anywhere.
27:23 - Alexis (Host)
I love it.
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favorite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community and we'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
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In this episode of Through the Creative Door, host Alexis speaks with Katanga Junior, a Tanzanian-born musician whose work spans hip-hop, ragga, reggae, and indie folk. Known for his genre-blending style and creative flair, Junior shares what it means to him to create freely across styles, the inspirations behind his latest album Pamoja, and the challenges and rewards of collaborating with diverse artists. This episode dives into Junior’s journey, his passion for connecting with audiences, and the perseverance that shaped his most memorable works. It’s an inspiring look at the artistry and dedication that fuels his vibrant sound.
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Katanga Junior on instagram; @ katangajnrmusic
This episode was recorded on 8 August 2024 on the lands of the Arrernte Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
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Creative resources from Katanga Junior:
Pamoja Album: https://open.spotify.com/album/4ElanTMjoXqNGMvLBeiYhg?si=X6XdNngVSvKoGTeawK2oxA
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
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00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. Owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Junior. Oh my goodness, this is so bloody exciting. I'm so excited to be chatting with you. You are such a goddamn vibe. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
01:04 - Junior (Guest)
Madam already here, thank you. Thank you for having me. I know your life is bad, good, good, good.
01:14 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it's so good. So for the listeners that don't know you, they need to 100% get amongst it and listen to all your tunes because you are just a goddamn vibe. But the synopsis of Katanga Junior, you're Tanzania born and bred now established here in Alice Springs, but you are a multi-talented bear. You play drums, you rap, you sing. You sing so many different genres. You have this beautiful band of phenomenal humans who, just in their own right, are just amazing.
01:55 - Junior (Guest)
Good people, yeah, good people.
01:57 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I don't know. You just do amazing stuff. Everyone needs to check you out.
02:04 - Junior (Guest)
They should.
02:08 - Alexis (Host)
But, to start things off. We're going to start off with what does a creative space mean to you and why?
02:18 - Junior (Guest)
Creative space. It's like where I create things, where, like peaceful, it's connected to me, I feel free to do whatever I want to do. Like that is creative space to me. It feel like no boundaries, you know, like when you get like just creating things and feel free to do anything. That's like a creative space for me.
02:41 - Alexis (Host)
Do you feel like that needs to be a peaceful physical space, or is it more of a mental space for you? Do you think?
02:51 - Junior (Guest)
I think it needs to be a peaceful place, because when I create, I like to be me, yeah, yeah. And after then it can be physical, you know, but for when I created, I like to feel and to be connected to what I'm doing yeah, yeah, yeah.
03:09 - Alexis (Host)
And is is it like, do you need to have instruments around you or do you feel like you can just like? Create from thin air.
03:20 - Junior (Guest)
It depends, so I always have my guitar whenever I'm writing songs, because I feel like sometimes I sing song, but I feel better when I have the guitar because it's shaped me in tune, because I feel my vocal is not on tune till I hear instrument, because when someone like tell me sing, now I can sing.
03:40 - Alexis (Host)
Really no, no, I don't believe that at all, I never tell anyone. Guys don't say anything.
03:50 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, yeah. So it's like I need guitar or beat.
03:58 - Alexis (Host)
Ah, okay.
03:59 - Junior (Guest)
So that's where I feel like I need this and this, and then that's, and then maybe pen and paper, and then score done. But most of it is guitar. If I don't have guitar, I have to have beat. And then I can write,
04:13 - Alexis (Host)
Bcause I know you play drums, yeah, yeah. Do you sing while you play drums? Or do you have to lay it down?
04:19 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, I kind of sing while I'm'm playing, but I never share it on stage. So my dream was like this year. I said maybe I should start playing drums to a couple songs.
04:32 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, you should. Oh my god that'd be amazing.
04:36 - Junior (Guest)
I did like a couple few weeks ago. I had to open the mic and everyone like said, oh, I never see you do this. I said, oh, I don't know.
04:43 - Alexis (Host)
Oh but you're so good at it.
04:45 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, no, no, try not good at it.
04:52 - Alexis (Host)
So modest, so bloody modest.
04:55 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, yeah.
04:57 - Alexis (Host)
Now you have released some phenomenal music and it's so goddamn catchy, Junior, seriously so catchy, yeah. But for you personally, is there a body of work or a piece of work that you are the most proud of, and why do you think that is and how did it come about?
05:19 - Junior (Guest)
Maybe I'll say two. Maybe the first song that established me, like Mapanzi Business is, like that's my main song. I always remember it's the song that take me, made me who I am till today. Because for what I'm singing the song to the story and everything to the song then it make people connected to the song before even know me and before even see me. Yeah, so to that Mapanzi Business song. And another one is Pamoja. Album is the things that I'm proud of. Like I, when I'm rapping in Alice Springs, I see, like so many talented people and art creativity. So everywhere I go and I love open mics because that's where I find people which I can collab with, I can jam on stage with and I can collab with, I can jam on stage with and I can just so when I rap in Alice Springs and I just keep with oh there's this guy, oh there's this, oh there's another one, oh there's another singer there.
06:13 - Alexis (Host)
I feel like we met at Jumping Jam. Yeah, yeah, yeah, years ago.
06:17 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, it is, it is and Pamoja album is something that I'm really grateful and I'm happy with that, because just collabing with so many artists in Alice Springs and I feel like even if I'm gone, that's my main thing I'm proud of, like collabing with so many people in one album.
06:40 - Alexis (Host)
It's a beautiful record. Those listening get amongst it. It's absolutely stunning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah oh wonderful. On the flip side of things that we're proud of, or things that you're proud of, is there something over your career that has challenged your creativity? At all like and and do you think there's a major lesson that you've sort of been able to find from that?
07:11 - Junior (Guest)
Challenge. Oh yeah, maybe I said don't collaborate with so many people, you are rejected.
07:19 - Alexis (Host)
The flip side of yeah, yeah, yeah.
07:22 - Junior (Guest)
It's like, sit down on, talk to this person because I want to work with them, because when I work, it's like I've got the producer even as tell them like this is what I want to do and this and that, and even they didn't trust me for that project to work because it depends so many people in one project, like in one album, like I want a future, this guy, this, them, them, them a future because she's beautiful and she sings good, and this, this, and they're like too many people in one project. I think maybe it was the main challenge. I had to like take people out and bring them in, but I want to hear them, I want to sit down with them, I want to hear their vocal and I want because there's some people already locked in, but their vocal and one because there's some people already locked in. But it's like even the last day I had to give them the dead time and it's kind of like we got one hour before finishing. All of the people came that last day because I'd say, hey, today's the last day, please can you anyone who's coming? If you're not coming today, you're getting replaced by someone else.
08:23
And the last hour we got a gig of hat day we playing for Desert Festival I think, and I got like a few minutes before I got to sound check and I got like four people so I didn't have even enough time to listen. And just sing, sing, sing and walk out. Another one come prepared, sing, sing, sing, walk out and walk out. And then we all me and the producer we were playing that same day, I think, yeah, and we had to walk out. I said we'll listen tomorrow and luckily, come the next day, everything's out. So that's the main thing, like I think maybe don't feel just too many artists in one project and then maybe that's my advice Otherwise. But now I'm really happy for what it is because I really like everyone, diversity to the music and everything.
09:05 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, do you think that a part of that challenge of having to work with so many competing calendars? And timelines and things like that, like do you think that that made you have to compromise your art at all, or were you able to still? It was more stressful, but were you still able to?
09:24 - Junior (Guest)
Well, still nothing changed. So I think there's only one song. The other guys then pulled themselves out and I said I'll sing this one song, and I sing the song by myself, and the song won awards.
09:35
This is the best song of the year. So maybe it was meant to be that. And I never regret. So nothing changed, even if some days I know someone is coming but they're not coming. But I'm with the producer, I tell them okay, if they're not coming, I'll do this, this, this, this, this, this. So we never waste time, so I know what the picture I'm going to paint. So it's like, even if they're not here, so I'll fix this, I'll fix that, I'll play another song, I'll do BV, I'll do this, I'll do this, I'll do this. So it's like, if you know what you're doing, you just leave that spot. Anyone can come and fill that gap, so you just do what you can do to finish the art, because it's your own picture. So you're drawing your own thing, yeah, and you're trying at the end of the day.
10:30 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, like what is the dream.
10:30 - Junior (Guest)
What is your vision for the project and making sure that that actually comes to fruition? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is and it's really it's. It's hard, but you end up like adding more hours with producer because some songs you already plan. This song is coming out next time, like next week, so if we don't finish today, it's like push, everything push everyone, because everyone is waiting, already pay the produce. They're mastering guys and this and this the mixing guys, so it's like you have to go, still focus on what you're doing. You know.
10:59 - Alexis (Host)
So I know we touched on a little bit about at the start. When we talked about creative space, we also talked about the instruments and things that you know you like having around you. But when we talk about objects, do you have anything like sentimental or anything in particular that you sort of like having with you when you're creating?
11:21 - Junior (Guest)
Oh, I don't know, I think maybe pen and paper. Let's just say that that's the main. I'm still like, got so many books, like journals, yeah, journals like this I write everywhere because even if I'm at work or doing the meetings, sometimes because it gets boring.
11:39 - Alexis (Host)
Adulting.
11:43 - Junior (Guest)
Or PD something for work. I'm also have another job to cover everything up. So it's like I'll PD there and you feel like the way this going it's too much, so right here. And so it's come challenge me. One day I said I want that something. I write that day. So I just go through 20 books, I'm just looking for one thing and I open, and I open until I find it.
12:05 - Alexis (Host)
Do you date them or like nah, you just write them and then get another one, nah.
12:11 - Junior (Guest)
I don't. Because I write. I used to challenge myself sometimes I write every day. So even if I write dates, it's like I write everywhere.
12:22 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. I love that challenge. I don't know if I could do it yeah I, I think I could do it for maybe a week and then yeah, yeah, yeah, it is sometimes like I just follow my brain telling me to do so, that's all.
12:35 - Junior (Guest)
When I'm creating things, I don't create what people want me to create, so I create what I want. So it's like this week I'll say like, okay, what am I doing? It's like learn this and this and this and follow it, and I don't limit myself like only do this way or this way, this way, try so many different way, and which way to work? So, yeah, yeah, most. Let's go back to the question. So I use pen and paper the most. Yeah, and they're everywhere yeah, I
12:57 - Alexis (Host)
I love this Now, junior, if you could give one piece of wisdom, one nugget of advice to another creative, what would it be?
13:12 - Junior (Guest)
Just do your best and don't limit yourself like you. Some people I see they limit themselves. They just kind of like go in one way so you can just try so many different things and see how it work and so many way. There's so many way of making things, of learning things and creative way. But do what you want to do. Whatever you want to do, just try and go with it and see at the end the result and if it's not working, just stop for a bit and go back again and look at it and see how it feels, how it sounds, where it's going. And yeah, not big advice, but do what you can do to do your art and don't limit yourself of what you can do.
13:54 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, that is perfect. That is perfect, it's so true. It's so true. If someone wanted to do what you do, it's so true. Yeah, if someone wanted to do what you do, what advice would you give in regards to like resources or books or podcasts or courses or like? Is there anything that you have found for your music business or you as a creative in your artistic you know development? Yeah creative in your artistic, you know development. Yeah, is there anything that you've sort of? Lyou know you'd advise would be a good starting point for somebody else.
14:32 - Junior (Guest)
I just say, like it doesn't matter what you're doing, just be good at what you're doing, just practice and practice. And even because, and know what you're doing, be good at what you're doing, just practice and practice. And even because, and know what you're doing, be good at it and know what you're doing and know what you want at the end of it, like it doesn't mean that I know what I want.
14:56
Sometimes things change. It's like just don't look at other people what they're doing, just look yourself what you want to do. It's like many people are going to compete with other people and many people like think, oh, I want to be like this guy, I want to do like this, I want to do so you end up follow people what they're doing. You end up forget what you're doing and like you have to know what you want and what you want to do at that time. So don't look at other people what they're doing, just look at yourself, what you want to do and how you're going to do it and be good at it, because at the end of the day, they'll look at you if you're doing good and they'll come to join you.
15:35 - Alexis (Host)
Very true, very true. One last question. If you could have any other creative come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why?
15:49 - Junior (Guest)
I'd say maybe you have to interview Billy Black.
15:52 - Alexis (Host)
So for those listening, Billy Black is a phenomenal guitarist here, based in Alice and plays with Junior, plays with lots of people.
16:02 - Junior (Guest)
Yeah, yeah.
16:03 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah.
16:09 - Junior (Guest)
I think he shaped me a little bit because I believe in learning and work with the people who have the same ideas and what we want to do here. So he always say, okay, you have to know your things, and so he helped me so much to know more. It's not just like be there and just be there and go deep to it and Always so you always. I think we kind of think the same. But not he always say like oh, you did this well, today, because I was thinking about this, I say like once, everything is fine. We can all go the same way, like if I can feel the music, I can feel we can all go the same way. Like if I can feel the music, I can feel everything. We can all go the same way. So I feel like Billy Black is the right person to interview next, because he knows so many people, he travels so many places around Australia. World of experience and the world and so many things, so it will be good to connect with him, yeah
17:05 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, Junior, it is just such a pleasure chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming through the creative door. This has been the best!
17:15 - Junior (Guest)
Thank you for having me.
17:21 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favorite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community and we'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
-
In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis sits down with multi-talented music producer, pianist, DJ, studio owner and fellow podcast host of “Music My Mates Make”, Darcy Davis, also known as D-Day. The two dive deep into the creative process, from Darcy’s journey building his own recording studio in Alice Springs, to his passion for creating music in unconventional spaces. Darcy shares an inspiring story about stepping up to lead a family legacy project, recording an album in Pidginjarra language, and the pride he feels for preserving Indigenous culture through music. Join Alexis and Darcy for an honest conversation about creative flow, overcoming self-doubt and how pushing through challenges can bring out your best work.
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Darcy on instagram; @ darcydavis
This episode was recorded on 5 August 2024 on the lands of the Arrernte Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
…
Creative resources from Darcy:
UPK7 Album: https://open.spotify.com/album/6YGdxqYMOLcU2z4ha7FJZT?si=qO5vRNwJSLum1zZ6mtGwxQ
BOOKS:
Mastery by Robert Greene
The Creative Act: A Way Of Being by Rick Rubin
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—--------------------------
00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. Owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I'll be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I'm delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, darcy.
00:50 - Darcy (Guest)
How are you, alexis?
00:52 - Alexis (Host)
Good, how are you?
00:53
Yeah, really good. Thanks for having me on your show.
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
I am so chuffed that I get to welcome you through the Creative Door podcast.
01:02 - Darcy (Guest)
It feels good to step right through that door. I just felt like a different feeling sensation good to step right through that door together.
01:04 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I'm actually very grateful that I get to be in your creative space in uh, but we will talk about that more as we get through the podcast. I feel like I need to enlighten the listeners a little bit. A bit about you. For some they may know you as Darcy, but aka D-Day, D-Day.
01:31 - Darcy (Guest)
D-Davis. Yeah, kind of stuck around that nickname.
01:36 - Alexis (Host)
But you are such a talented bear. Such a talented bear. You're a music producer. You're a phenomenal piano player, or pianist correct terminology You're an MC, you DJ so much I mean. You've also been radio hosts in many different iterations. You've been in so many different ensembles and, if I couldn't add any more to the rap sheet, you also have a beautiful studio called Red House recording studio here in Alice Springs where you get to, you know, be creative in all of the ways and you also have your own podcast which is awesome.
02:19 - Darcy (Guest)
You were my first guest on my first podcast and now you've just eclipsed me altogether.
02:24 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, stop it. You're inspiring me, thank you, but your podcast is Music My Mates Make, which is so inspiring and just fills my cup every time I get to listen, which is such a pleasure.
02:36 - Darcy (Guest)
You were my first guest, so you really got it rolling. In fact, I've conked out a little bit and you're just like a powerhouse just striving through, so you're inspiring me. How are you doing this? How are you doing that? They're kind of like waves, aren't they like? They come in and out and one person comes in surfing this wave and then they might like get dumped into the ocean and the next person catches a wave. And yeah, hopefully we check in with each other and inspire each other. So I'm feeling super motivated now after seeing you again.
03:08 - Alexis (Host)
Excellent, excellent. That's what we want to hear.
03:10 - Darcy (Guest)
Yeah, I love it.
03:12 - Alexis (Host)
Going to launch into the first question. Okay, let's launch. I feel like this is a difficult one because you have such a broad spectrum of avenues of creating. But what does a creative space mean to you, and why?
03:31 - Darcy (Guest)
Creative space is just anywhere that you can kind of intentionally set out to do your thing. It's a safe space. It's usually quiet for me, or somewhere that's not. I don't have all the regular distractions from life like people trying to get a hold of you to do something, or, you know social media or somewhere that you can kind of just block out and go into that space.
03:59
Hopefully, when you hit the flow, the flow state, when you stop thinking about time you enter, you go through the creative door, metaphorically speaking, and for me it's like it's not always that the inspiration is going to be there, but you sort of start moving the proverbial paint around the canvas and then little things start to take shape and I think, yeah, I, I like to, usually like to do something, like have a vacuum up or just clear the space a little bit and then know that I'm entering in like intentionally into creating something.
04:38
It's not always there, like I believe a little bit in the muse, that the muse kind of might be that spirit which whispers the cool ideas into you when you're ready for it. So showing up and being ready for the muse to maybe hopefully gift you a good idea or not, or just showing up ready might be enough. You might not always catch an idea that day, but creative space is somewhere I go into intentionally to let the yeah, let creativity come through
05:21 - Alexis (Host)
And do you find that you like coming into studio space is more feasible in that way, or really just purposefully coming into a space?
05:26
Well, yeah, obviously I love being in the studio in the Red House, the building my dad made, and when I was quite young and grew into being able to know how to use it and operate it professionally. But a creative space could be somewhere also that could be quite transient. Or you might be in the middle of a chaotic environment, for example, like on a plane. I like to throw on my headphones and crack open Ableton and just go into a creative space there. I like being in a moving space there or on. I like moving. I like being in a moving space, like on a train really, or somewhere like that, and being able to throw down just on that, um, on my laptop alone, without any other equipment. Sometimes I'm pretty good at playing the the keyboard on a computer.
06:25 - Alexis (Host)
On a computer? Can you teach me how to do that. That's tough.
06:22
No, I kind of it's funny. Sometimes I'm in here and we have this big studio full of equipment and I'm like let me just play this down. They're like Darcy man, you know you have all of this stuff. I like to be resourceful. Whatever your space is, that's the best environment. But I do like, yeah, sometimes, being in a cafe or on a plane, some type of public transport, I feel like I have no other choice than to go into that and it kind of maybe accelerates me into that creative space. So I like to be able to be wherever and still tap into that.
07:04 - Alexis (Host)
I love that.
07:06 - Darcy (Guest)
If I'm making beats, obviously I can't lay down vocals like you. There's a different emphasis on what I'm creating to you, but I like making beats on public transport as well.
07:18 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. I love this so much. I guess there's a great segue into the next question.
07:24 - Darcy (Guest)
Nice, good segue.
07:30 - Alexis (Host)
If you could choose something out of all the body of work that you've done, what is something that you're most proud of creating and why?
07:42 - Darcy (Guest)
Well, I usually don't feel proud. I usually feel like I'm onto the next thing. In fact, like my whole lifetime has been trying to get accustomed to feeling okay with something that I have created and put out there and, yeah, where we're on worst critics all the time.
08:09
So I feel like I've hit a point where I can tolerate hearing myself, let alone being really proud of things. But my own personal breakthrough was and it's, the thing that I'm most proud of achieving not necessarily the end result but the process that I went through. So I'll just talk a bit about that. Last year I was working on this UPK project, which is a project that started before I was even born, in 1989, out at Morijulu, which is the community of Uluru, Ayers Rock. They brought a 16-track tape machine out there and they made this Music for Health project, which ended up being a really popular record, especially on the AP wirelands where my parents have lived and worked as teachers since the 80s before coming to Alice, and so that project it's been through a bunch of different versions since then. Usually about every six years there's a new one, and so usually it's been my dad and I collaborating on it, in fact, on UPK6.
09:30
I said to dad, like did you know that one day I was gonna be the one recording this project? He said yeah. I said what? So you sorta like engineered me to be the engineer of this project? He said yeah, of course, why else do you have children? He was just joking, but you know, last year dad was going through a lot of health problems and his heart got down to like 20% capacity. We were worried for his life, actually legitimately, because he was close he was close to meeting his maker and they almost cancelled the whole project. They said should we cancel it or do you think that you can go on without your dad, sort of thing, and knowing how much money and effort the organization had gone into the whole thing, I said you know what? I think I can do it and went out there and yeah, it was on top of setting up all the mics running between the rooms. So we create like a bush studio with heshen and we like build it off the side of like an old house and so building the studio and then setting up, and then usually the role that my dad would do would be because he's good at language at Pidginjarri, he speaks fluently he would be the one constructing the songs and I'd be kind of there to hit record or throw ideas in. But it wasn't all my responsibility. So this time it was like all right, you got to write the songs, you got to be there in a language that I wasn't that good at. But now, as a result of that, it was like a massive trial by fire and something that I was grateful that I could experience while my dad was still alive. It's sort of like experiencing like what it'd be like when he's gone to carry that on, but he was still hanging on for his life. So, yeah, I'm.
11:21
I wrote my first song in Pidginjarra language, which is, I feel, proud of that as a white fella, that I have family out there coaching me, schooling me. And I said to one of my bros there, Dwayne. I said, oh, I might need to get a dictionary for Pidginjarra. He said, forget the dictionary, wear your dictionary, just ask us any, any questions.
11:45
And it was this beautiful collaboration that happened and them knowing my dad in the whole story what they call the story of this project and then being able to rise above and still create an album, basically doing all of the roles and um now becoming kind of like a different person through that process of my language has gotten heaps better.
12:15
I wrote another song. So I did two songs on the album that were collaborations, because obviously I can't write a whole song in language, but, um, come up with the concept and, yeah, the, the, the pride that I feel was that I persevered through that and I managed to do all of those roles in such a massive project and didn't drop the ball and dad survived and yeah, all of that was very, yeah, it was really tough, one of the most difficult things that I've been through, and so I just feel personal pride that, yeah, this like a legacy there that I can take forward and had breakthroughs with the Aboriginal language that I feel proud, as an Australian, that I can really delve deep into that language and I'm determined to become fluent.
13:10
I speak Chinese, so I want to become fluent in Pidginjarra, like my dad. I can see it in my mind being able to interact and be fluent. It just feels like this massive achievement on the horizon which I'm going to get through. So, yeah, to answer your question, I feel proud of that. It's out on all platforms now you can have a look. Upk7, it's a concept album.
13:32 - Alexis (Host)
We will make sure to put it in the show notes and everyone has to listen yeah so, on the flip side of things that we're proud of, what do you think has challenged you the most in creativity and what do you think the major lesson was?
13:50 - Darcy (Guest)
I have this kind of like a lazy susan of skills that I'm rotating around and adding something to this one. I'm working on my DJing now. I'm working on my rapping. I'm trying to be a producer. I want to get better at these mic placements and compression and stuff.
14:07
So the most challenging thing is like being all of those roles is hard. And then there's literally a project, like I did, where I'm literally all those roles at once and the difficult thing is like, yeah, people can, oh, you're good at all these things, that then having something to show for each one, or the time it takes for you to actually really master that one area when you have a lot that you're trying to digest and make sense of. So the difficult thing is like finding my identity within all those areas. Like some people will see me on the street and they say, oh, you're that rapper. Or they might say, oh, you're the dj or you're the piano guy and it's hard to make all those things work. Or how do you carve out an authentic identity when you're always jumping around mediums in a way?
15:10
So I'm hoping that it becomes like a. It gets to the point where I'm can transcend all of those things, and all of those things naturally weave into something greater than and people seek me out to be that guy who knows all of those disciplines and has a different, unique perspective, where people can headhunt me to be that person, to be involved in that project, or they want me in the studio because of the energy that I bring, and they also also know that I'm good with lyrics and I'm good with arrangements and that I have this type of background. So, yeah, the challenge is making all those things work together and unify them, have them to be reinforced with one another, and not that I'm spread too thin amongst all of that.
16:08 - Alexis (Host)
Now, this could be as simple as an instrument, but I'm hoping that maybe there's something maybe more sentimental. Well, who knows? I shouldn't lead you into this question Is there an object that you can't live without when you're creating, and why?
16:30 - Darcy (Guest)
I wouldn't say it's an object, but what I like is a degree of chance.
16:41
So it's like sometimes you just have to throw paint at the wall or at the canvas, um, and not really have a clue what it's going to achieve. But, um, to have a degree of like, let's see what this does. Or let's do something that you wouldn't normally do, like let's try and put this channel effects on the one that it's not meant for. Or let's like put so, let's put some chance into the mix, so it might be just the way that you put your hands down on the piano might give you the key that you're arriving at. It might be like flicking open to a book, a page in a book, and going this is my word that I'm drawing something from, or having some degree of chance, because I feel like that's how the ideas can get through. You heard of like happy accidents, like I think there's kind of a science to happy accidents, being able to roll the dice in a way and see what will come, and that might be your first spark of creativity.
17:56 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative, what would it be?
18:05 - Darcy (Guest)
It relates to what I'm saying like follow the knowledge, go for learning and skills. Like prioritize that above short-term monetary gain. If you can always keep going, all right, I'm comfortable with this. Now it's time to be uncomfortable again. I'm gonna learn this next thing. Or I know my weakness is in my voice, or like I'm not for my beat, sound standard and stock standard and average. Or finding like, oh, my sound design skills aren't really good. I need to spend some time creating sounds and or whatever it is. That is your weakness. Keep stepping into that weak point and you'll find if you keep doing that, then you have like a broader and broader vantage point and creative standpoint to get the ideas out of your head. So I would say keep stepping into your weaknesses. Always, prioritize learning over short-term monetary gain and the money will follow in the future yep, wise words, wise words.
19:21 - Alexis (Host)
Uh, well, off the back of that, if you're talking about learning and education and upskilling. If you have any other resources or references podcasts.
19:27 - Darcy (Guest)
yeah, one of the books that really influenced me was Robert Greene's Mastery. I don't know if you've read that one. No, I haven't. It kind of gets into people's lives who, like Beethoven and people at the top of their field in the NBA and pilots, and kind of how they went on their journey to become masters of their field, and oftentimes there would be three or more things that they've mastered, which then gives them a unique vantage point to have a breakthrough in a certain area. So, yeah, that's been very influential.
20:13 - Alexis (Host)
Last but not least, one last question If you could hear anyone come on this podcast and answer these questions who would it be, and why?
20:25 - Darcy (Guest)
Well, I'm a big fan of Rick Rubin.
20:28
I would love I would love for him to go through the creative door. When I was doing this project out on the lands, I was listening to his book, the the creative act. I'm more of a audiobook type of person because if I start reading I'll just go to sleep. It's like valium just out, um, but I love listening to stuff. I'm a real listener. So, yeah, I listened to his book and some of the ideas that he had were like straight out of my mind, like we were speaking the same language, like we were cosmic family members or something. Stuff that I haven't well, I've articulated to people. And, um, he put it into words in this book and it's a lot of the time was yeah, and that really fueled me through that process. But, yeah, anyone like that dr dre, would be great.
21:22
I'm just talking about my influences yeah um Jack White, but in terms of Australia, I mean, there's a guy who lives in Melbourne named um Lockie, Lockie Lanius. I think he's the best musician in Australia if not one of the best in the world. You'll see him all around Melbourne. In fac he's so humble he should have meteoric success. He's just a true genius. He's a masterful jazz guitarist and singer. He can do literally everything. He would be my choice for a local guest. Yeah, if I can find him be elusive, I'll put you in contact.
22:16 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks, oh my goodness Darcy, this has been such a pleasure. Thanks, oh my goodness Darcy, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and giving such grace in these beautiful answers.
22:33 - Darcy (Guest)
Oh, my pleasure.
22:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it's just been so lovely chatting with you.
22:36 - Darcy (Guest)
Thanks for making space.
22:38 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, love it.
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favorite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community and we'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
-
In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis interviews Anthea Palmer, a versatile creative—musician, mentor, teacher, venue owner, and Editor-in-Chief of Jimmy Hornet Magazine. Anthea shares key insights into her artistic journey, highlighting the importance of finding inspiration through tranquillity and personal space. She explains how moments of calm allow her creativity to thrive and provide space for innovation. Anthea also emphasises the freedom that comes from breaking away from conventional rules, encouraging artists to embrace their unique visions.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Anthea on instagram; @ jimmyhornetmagazine
This episode was recorded on 14 May 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
…
Creative resources from Anthea:
Notion - visual organisation tool
BOOKS for marketing:
> anything by Seth Godin
> anything by Gary Vaynerchuk
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—--------------------------
00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, Anthea Palmer.
00:52 - Anthea
Hello, Alexis Naylor
00:53 - Alexis
I am so chuffed to be chatting with you. You are such a vibe and I am in such awe of you. Oh, my goodness, that's so sweet. Welcome through the creative door as I come to your house.
01:06 - Anthea (Guest)
Through my creative door.
01:07 - Alexis (Host)
To your creative space. But before I launch into questions, I wanted to start with a little bit about you, which I mean. You are so multifaceted and there's so much to your career and you as a human being. But even just to touch the surface, um, you, you, you are the editor-in-chief of Jimmy Hornet's magazine, which is amazing. And I feel like, are you in the like the first year?
01:42 - Anthea
Just through the first year
01:44 - Alexis
Yeah, amazing, amazing. Um, you know, for those who may or may not know, you have a history of being an amazing musician and singer. You've been a teacher, a coach, a mentor, and you've also owned multiple you know music venues in overseas and here in Australia. And, yeah, I feel like I'm only touching the surface of who you are.
02:09 - Anthea (Guest)
You get to an age and there's enough years that you've done a lot. That's all it is.
02:11 - Alexis
Have I missed anything? What have I missed?
02:14 - Anthea
I've had a couple of art galleries as well over the years and I did do a stint in the corporate world of communications. But yeah, that's, that's probably all of it pretty much.
02:28 - Alexis (Host)
I feel like there's just so much is this sea of amazingness, that is, Anthea Palmer. But, um, so we'll go into, get into the first question. Yep, first question, and because you have such a array of history behind you, this is probably well, I don't know, maybe you have a different answer for, for a different uh, life, life force. But what does a creative space mean to you, and why?
02:55 - Anthea (Guest)
um, it's a really interesting question. I think twofold. Firstly, personally, as a creative person, it means a lot to me to have an environment that's inspiring and comfortable. People find creativity in different places, and some people like chaos and stress, and out of that chaos and stress comes a creative flow. But for me it's far more about a bit of tranquility and I like to be surrounded with things that I love. And so, yeah, on a personal level, it means a lot. I've got to sort of have things ordered and things I love around me and be comfortable in my environment to really, um, work at my peak.
03:52 - Alexis (Host)
When you, when you say things that you love, like would that be pieces of art or?
03:54 - Anthea
yeah largely art
03:56 - Alexis
yeah wow, have you got a particular piece of art that's like a bit of a anchor for you, or is it a particular artist?
04:03 - Anthea (Guest)
I like all of my art. Really I'm looking around the room, not a particular piece, and not necessarily art, I mean, just although I do look around there's a lot of art in the room, but you know I like colour. And then, on a business level, environment has been a really important part of my brand for years and years because I've had live music venues and galleries, and so that even the magazine now it's sort of an extension of the brand that's been building through space, through spaces over the years. So from that point of view, yeah, environment's really important to the brand and that's what's helped sort of build the vibe, I think.
04:59 - Alexis (Host)
For those who are listening, where did this sort of Jimmy Hornet start Like? Where was the first space or idea that you had that name, that name?
05:15 - Anthea (Guest)
Well, the name came when I had the chandelier room, my first venue, and at the same time I was coaching musicians and sort of as a sideline and to help, you know, to be useful, and at that time I thought of the name Jimmy Hornet as like an avatar, for, like my ideal client and it was, you know, like a die-hard creative that just had to create you know that they couldn't not create and at the time it was a musician that I had in mind or that I was working with. But and then I sort of forgot about the name and the first venue was called the Chandelier Room because it was a big factory space with a lot of antique chandeliers. Um, you know for a fact it was a beautiful space yeah, it was in the end.
06:11
It was cool, um. And then I moved to China, mainland Dhina, and I opened venue there and I would normally have just probably called it the chandelier room and gone with the same vibe and kept the same branding. But when I got there I realized I was in the lighting manufacturing center of the world. And, fortunately, local entrepreneurs said to me you really need some marketing advice because this is China. You know, it's like when the Chinese come here and call their business something that doesn't make sense to us, you know which, and we laugh. Well, that happens with foreigners in. China all the time. Yeah, so um. For instance, if I had called it the chandelier room in the middle of the
06:49 - Alexis
People knocking, being like where is your warehouse? where's your chandelier?
07:00 - Anthea
Exactly that's what would have happened. So they were like there's, just because it would have been the french light, called the french light in character translation. So anyway, so we had to come up with a name that would work in china. And we, oh, we worked and worked and worked all these names.
07:18
That went on and on and um, the poor little marketing man was really pulling his hair out and then, sort of last resort, I said, oh, look, the only other name I can think of is Jimmy Hornet, which is sort of a silly name from the past. And he got really excited about it because Jimmy is a well-known Western name in China and it has very nice characters. It's Jimmy, and so he said Jimmy works. And then Hornet, there's very nice characters for Lucky B and of course, if you can have a lucky character in China, you know it's very favourable. And the character for Lucky that he chose also means musical note.
08:04
So he was like super excited and apparently all the characters are very well balanced and everything it was meant to be. It was meant to be. All the characters are very well balanced and everything it was meant to be it was meant to be. So it got, it was called Jimmy Hornet or Jimmy Ray Fung in in Mandarin, and when I moved back to Australia I just thought I'm not rebranding again, and so I kept the name. So then the venue here was called Jimmy Hornet as well, and now the magazine's called Jimmy Hornet.
08:31 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. No, it's beautiful, it's lovely to, and I think that's the thing about this podcast is the journey of creativity is not straightforward. Yeah, that's very true. Things come to the forefront and then they subside and then they come to the forefront again and I I think you sharing that story is just yeah.
08:58 - Anthea (Guest)
you've got to sort of go with the flow, I mean in life and in creativity and everything really. Yeah. So that's how it came about. I've ditched the Chinese characters. They serve their purpose.
09:10 - Alexis (Host)
I think this next question is going to be a hard one, but then maybe it won't be. What are you most proud of creating?
09:20 - Anthea (Guest)
It is a really hard question because I'm proud of lots of things actually that I've created. I'm proud of the spaces that I've created. So I guess interior design, design, but also venue design, particularly like third venue. I was good at it by then because I'd had two tests, although the China venue was beautiful. So I'm proud of that. I'm really proud of the magazine because it's new to me and I'm learning as I go, learning so much and it's really stretched me creatively and I'm really proud of it. Yeah, I mean I've just released Volume 5 and I think it's the best one. So I do feel like I mean I like some more than others for lots of reasons and they like my children. I know you're not supposed to have favorites, but I sort of do, um yeah, but I am really proud of it and excited about about it. Um, so I would say the magazine, yay.
10:26 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. I love that, on the flip side of something that you're proud of, what is something that has challenged your creativity and what do you reckon the major lesson was from it?
10:44 - Anthea (Guest)
um, it sounds a bit dull to heart. Back to the magazine, but that the reason I'm saying that is because I had no background. I have no formal background in design at all. I've just lucky, I've got a good eye for things. And nor have I got a background in publishing or printing or anything involved in being a magazine publisher.
11:07
So I had to teach myself everything from scratch and I think the lesson I learned and when I think back it's a lesson that served me well through throughout everything I've done really creatively and that is sort of throw the rules away, because you know, there's a lot of people in the magazine industry that think people, things have to be done a certain way, even if it's like font size and index pages and referencing, and I mean there's obviously some things that are essential to a publication. But who says they have to be done the same way? And the magazine is quite different from most other magazines. And that is because I just thought, no, I'm not going to worry about learning all the rules, I'm just going to do it the way I want to do it and let it sort of progress, you know, naturally. So yeah, I would say, don't get too caught up in like the expectation or the rules that are already set in place. And that's been a really big lesson
12:20 - Alexis (Host)
Did you? ever feel at all pressure to abide by any of the rules?
12:25 - Anthea (Guest)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, like any industry, there's a level of it that can be a bit pretentious, and I'm sure there are some. I mean there's a lot of like high art magazines and I'm not a high art magazine at all, but there are a lot of beautiful high art posh magazines and they would be bigger sticklers for, you know, I guess, the legacy of magazine layout and that sort of stuff, a particular aesthetic, and exactly yeah whereas, yeah, I'm not and I I don't really care about it, I just care about how the end product looks.
13:05
I don't really care about whether people are going to go. You know, tut, tut. I mean, I've had, I have had online complaints, oh not um, you know, not awful, awful. But somebody did say it looked like an adolescent school project. And somebody said I just can't understand why you would use such and such a font at such and such a size. And I'm like, well, because I thought it looked good. But you're going to get that with everything. It doesn't matter what you know, what you do or how you're putting yourself out there. There's always going to be some criticism.
13:44 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, it's so funny how I mean I can empathise with that. I released a song with a friend of mine and we've got a matching music video, which we're both very proud of doing. But yeah, the criticism of, oh, you're too close on your face or you're too like, it's like everything's critiqued. It's like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't really.
14:05 - Anthea (Guest)
Exactly, and you know, sometimes you look at the person that's made the comment and just think where are you even coming from? You know, if it was somebody who was an expert or had a lot of experience, you know you would probably take it a bit more to heart, I guess. But you know, everybody's a critic, aren't you critics everywhere
14:23 - Alexis (Host)
I mean especially with the internet. These days it's a bit easier for people to critique you. Yes, yeah, now is there an object or a thing that you can't live without when you're creating?
14:43 - Anthea (Guest)
Yep, my notebook really I'm a note taker, um, I'm pretty much constantly writing notes. So I have a notebook. There's one right here next to me. This is my current one and, um, yeah, it doesn't matter what I'm doing, whether I'm um, I mean, for instance, even if I am singing, learning a song, playing piano, if it's magazine editing, if I'm writing, if I'm brainstorming, it always my hand just starts writing and I get very frustrated if I don't have a notebook with me. So, even if I go out, even if I go out for lunch now, I take a notebook. Really, yeah.
15:23
Cause I think well, if somebody's late, I could doodle for 10 minutes.
15:28 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. Yeah.
15:28 - Anthea (Guest)
So that's my yeah, I take a notebook everywhere and I've got. I keep them for a while in case there's anything in them I want to refer to. So I've got a notebook cupboard that's got like all my old notebooks in it and I just put masking tape on the front with the date. You know that it started and ended, yeah, and I keep them for a while and then they end up being tossed out. But yeah,
15:49 - Alexis (Host)
Do you have? I know this sounds like an odd question, but do you have like a particular kind of pen that you like?
16:01 - Anthea
I do!
16:04 - Alexis
Yeah, because I feel like there's something about the glide on the paper clearly for you.
16:04 - Anthea (Guest)
Also, I usually use this like multi-colored thing oh, I love it yeah because, depending on the notes and what's in my head at the time, something might have to be in blue and something might have to be in black, so that I can quickly see that there's, you know, two aspects or whatever. So I also am a little bit color-coded. And some pages are really neat and some patents pages are just chaos, which is probably just how I was feeling on the day.
16:34 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. Do you ever find writing on your like typing on your laptop or in your phone? Does that give you justice?
16:44 - Anthea (Guest)
I have both or yeah, so I mean, I'm always doing everything on my laptop and I have a big screen attachment because I'm editing, so I sort of need, and I'm a bit blind these days, but I always, at the same time, have my notebook yeah.
17:00 - Alexis (Host)
The notebook is your anchor. Yeah, yeah, I love that so much. If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of advice, to another creative, what would it be?
17:14 - Anthea (Guest)
um, oh look, I think it would have to be to try to stay in your own lane, regardless of what you're doing, so sort of be true to yourself, even within your creativity. Try not to, you know, get too influenced and too pulled away from what's your natural vibe, expression, brand, whatever you wanna call it. So, yeah, I think, just stay in your own lane. And that sounds really easy, but it can be difficult because we're all influenced by money and people and opportunity and this thing's flying at us everywhere. So I think it's easy to get distracted. Yeah, but I think just try to stay in your own lane, yeah.
18:04 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. That's so, so poetic, so good. I'm wondering what resources would you recommend, like books or podcasts or anything that pops into mind, for someone who wants to develop their creative process.
18:23 - Anthea (Guest)
I would say notion. There's a, a software package called notion and it's the best sort of visual visual organization tool, online tool that I've come across, and I've tried. You know lots of things because I'm a very visual person. So, um, as far as organizing ideas and categories of ideas and visuals, um, there's all sorts of tools that you can sort of plug into it. But, yeah, it's called notion, I think it might be notion dot, it's not dot net, but I think it might be Notion. It's not net, but it's, yeah, it might be Notionnet. Anyway, people will find it. But yeah, I use it all the time, yeah, I use it a lot just to keep things organised and put things away. In case, you know, there was a thought process that I can come back to that I might want to keep Again, visually, it's great for just organizing. You know, even as a musician it would be great as a visual artist, as a designer, as a writer. Yes, terrific tool. So that would be my tip. And it's quite cheap, it's not expensive at all.
19:27 - Alexis (Host)
Well, that's helpful yeah, yeah, it's a win. Yeah, is there any like books or anything that has helped you along the way, do you think?
19:39 - Anthea (Guest)
I mean recently I'm very involved in online marketing for the magazine. So you know, I mean I guess the authors that spring to mind for me, because no matter what I'm doing, I'm always trying to market it and sell it. So I mean, I love Seth Godin. I've read all of Seth Godin's books. He's like a marketing guru, very clever man, I like. I don't like the man so much, but he's. His books are good. And that's Gary Vaynerchuk, who's also very famous American marketer. Yeah, I guess they're the two authors that come to mind that I've literally read everything that they've released.
20:25
Yeah and then around that. Usually my reading these days is non-fiction, because I feel like I just don't have enough time to read fiction at this stage of my life.
20:35 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah.
20:36 - Anthea (Guest)
Yeah, so that would my the two authors I would recommend having a look at.
20:40 - Alexis (Host)
Oh love that. If you could hear any other creative come and chat with me on the podcast and answer these questions, who would it be? And why?
20:50 - Anthea (Guest)
Because you're about creativity really, and, as is the magazine, I've been thinking a lot about the creatives that you don't give much mind to, and I'm quite interested in floristry in my mind at the moment and I was thinking it would be great, because of the questions you're asking me to, to find a florist, yeah, and just get their idea of space and creativity and tools and yeah. So I think somebody that's in that realm and I mean you would have to be so creative and like all other creatives that you've got so many aspects of floristry. I mean, still, the business side, the creative side, um, I think, yeah, I think they must have some good information that we could all tap into.
21:47 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I love it. Oh, my goodness, thank you so much. You're welcome, Anthea Palmer, for being on through the creative door.
21:51 - Anthea
Pleasure anytime.
21: 52 - Alexis
Yay!
21:57
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
-
In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis sits down with Cameron Alexander, a talented singer-songwriter navigating the highs and lows of creative life. From the challenges of van life through the Australian terrain to the importance of finding a personal creative space, Cameron opens up about the delicate balance between routine and inspiration. Tune in for an insightful conversation about overcoming imposter syndrome, creating art in both good and bad moments in life and celebrating resilience, growth, and authentic creation true to you.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Cameron on instagram; @ __cameron_alexander__
This episode was recorded on 6 May 2024 on the lands of the Yuggera Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
…
Creative resources from Cameron:
I Heart Songwriters Club - https://www.iheartsongwritingclub.com/
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—--------------------
00:09 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, how are you?
00:51 - Cameron (Guest)
I'm so well, I'm so much better for seeing you on this humid Brisbane afternoon.
00:57 - Alexis (Host)
Cameron Alexander. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
01:01 - Cameron (Guest)
It's so good to be here.
01:03 - Alexis (Host)
Technically, I'm through your door, but that's yeah, that's you know, that's how this podcast for all. I get to come and visit
01:11 - Cameron (Guest)
Strangers in places
01:13 - Alexis (Host)
Stranger danger
01:16 - Cameron (Guest)
no no, no danger.
01:19 - Alexis (Host)
So let's start with a little bit about you. So you are a phenomenal artist in your own right.
01:27 - Cameron (Guest)
Thank you, I appreciate that.
01:28 - Alexis (Host)
You really are. You write some really catchy tunes and I think I'm enamoured, because I obviously can't play guitar, so, like I just watch what you do, I was like, oh they're just so lush so beautiful.
01:45 - Cameron (Guest)
That's really. That's really nice to say,
01:48 - Alexis (Host)
Oh well, it's the truth. It's the truth, but you have toured, you have recorded, you have done van life, even with your touring, which I just love absolutely froth that.
02:05 - Cameron (Guest)
Well I have to say you helped us out with that because we were going in very dark and I think Ansel, my fiancé and I we had a coffee meeting with you and you gave us a lot of very valuable tips.
02:15 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I just want everyone to go van life. I was just so excited when you were like I'm thinking about doing this. I'm like yes, yeah, yes, this I'm like yes, yeah, yes,
02:25 - Cameron (Guest)
yeah, it's hard, but it's good. It's harder than I thought. I think I rely on routine more than I realized, and I don't think I maintained routine as well as I could have
2:38 - Alexis (Host)
I would suggest it's pretty difficult to retain any kind of routine, not only just van life, but just on tour or on the road which you guys were all over the place for that yeah, so I wouldn't worry, I don't sweat small stuff.
02:55 - Cameron (Guest)
What are you gonna do?
02:57 - Alexis (Host)
So you have been traveling a lot. We're here in brisbane, but you're originally from Perth yes uh, you've had lots of different spaces to create, yeah, but I'm curious what does a creative space mean to you and why?
03:14 - Cameron (Guest)
I sort of found on the road. I didn't write much at all really, um, lots of words maybe here and there, as far as like melody, um, and actual, you know, like putting a song together, like not much, and I'm not sure if that's just because maybe you don't have anywhere. That feels private or like for me I don't really like and I would like to do more of it, but I don't really like creating in the presence of anyone else, so much in terms of writing a song. Maybe, once you're putting something together, absolutely obviously people there. But I definitely found like, like and this was the biggest thing with with travel or whenever we've moved from one apartment to another is like if there isn't a space, that is just for that, um, it sort of doesn't happen, and I think what that means, like for us now, when we, when we moved here and moved into a place, we sort of wanted to have either a garage or a bedroom that we could set up with all the, all the other music gear in there, because I think if you have all your stuff, say, in the lounge room, oh yeah, you could play in the lounge room. It's like well, you can, but you also live with someone else and maybe there's people staying and all of those things.
04:14
So for me I think um, you know, it needs to be light for me, like, and I need to feel like it's light and that sort of then comes into the garage thing, whereas I can't go and sit in like a dark sort of like a dank cellar of a garage and create, because it just doesn't really work.
04:28
It's like I want to be light for me. I put a bunch of plants around, but I don't think that's essential, but I do like it and I think it just has to be instruments everywhere. So I like to have maybe two or three guitars out and a bass out and maybe there's a harmonica on the table, and I think when all those things are out, you just pick them up and play. So, even if you're not planning on creating proper, you just pick something up and play and that thing leads to another thing, and then you're like oh cool, and you either quickly grab a sound grab and you work on it later. Yeah, I guess when I lived in a bigger house, there was a guitar in every room and some of them were really crappy and some of them were really good, and sometimes you play the crappy one.
05:07
You're like I actually really like how the crappy one sounds when I play this particular thing, yeah, but otherwise, like it doesn't need to be big, it just needs to have its own little separate place for me and it needs to feel private.
05:19 - Alexis (Host)
Have you ever been able to get over that and write in front of or like, have the concept of a song in the presence of anyone?
05:29 - Cameron (Guest)
I think I can do it lyrically, I can do words and I can do melody, but like I couldn't do instrument in front of people, I wouldn't be able to, like, write anything on guitar in front of people. I think that comes from. I feel like, guitar wise, I feel like it's something that is like the least natural of the singer-songwriter thing for me. So it's probably the thing that I feel like I need to sort of nut out of mine a little bit, work out of my own a bit and then take it to someone and could work on it then. But I need to go with like a blueprint or nuts and bolts, yeah, probably vocals and lyrics I could do on the spot, I think, pretty happily.
06:05 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting that you say that, because I do think it is a learned skill to be able to create, and I think you're always paying attention, like you know that someone's at home or someone's somewhat in earshot, even if they're not really paying attention to you. But it's funny because I started playing piano when I was a kid and an upright piano was always put in a public area of a house yeah so I sort of got used to the fact that someone would be hearing me. I never really got full privacy, yeah, and so yeah, it's almost flipped me.
06:36 - Cameron (Guest)
For me that's really interesting yeah.
06:38 - Alexis (Host)
I can. I can start things and sort of hum things and I yeah, even when I'm in share houses. I can sort of obviously, depending on the subject matter and things like that.
06:49 - Cameron (Guest)
You know, maybe you don't, it feels a bit too private but, for the most part yeah yeah,
06:58 - Cameron (Guest)
I think maybe it comes from like a feeling of almost like pseudo imposter imposter syndrome with a guitar or like I feel like I'm like does anyone realize I still don't know what I'm doing with this yet like it kind of feels like that. So, even like jamming with people, as long as I let's just have a jam I'm like I, I just don't think it's the thing that I do. I don't really enjoy it because maybe I'm just a bit on edge of my ability yeah but again singing or like writing.
07:22
So let's do a writing day. I'd be like, let's do, it sounds great. So let's just jam, like play some guitars and stuff, like nah, I'll do that by myself. Sorry, which comes across as rude, but it's just. I actually just don't think I have the ability for it. I'm sorry
07:34 - Alexis (Host)
Well, we know what our strengths and our weaknesses are. Yeah, we, yeah, all good. Yeah, all good, yeah. When did you start playing guitar?
07:44 - Cameron (Guest)
I think I was probably like 13. Yeah, I think, and then I just was a very bad student.
07:54 - Alexis (Host)
In what way?
07:54 - Cameron (Guest)
In terms of like I just didn't do anything, but I want to play this. And your teacher was like great, this is how we're going to do this. This is like structure. This is that. This is that. Then you go to the lesson next week like, cool, how'd you go. And you're like, did you reckon they'll be able to figure out that I? And you're like, yeah, I was really struggling with with that C chord. Again, you're like, when you're struggling with that six months ago, you're like, yeah, it's really just come around, hasn't it?
08:16 - Alexis (Host)
I do vividly remember piano teachers and they always expected you to do like certain scales and certain exercises and yeah, I don't know as kids why do you think that we all think that we can fudge it and they're, oh,
08:26 - Cameron (Guest)
They're not gonna know that it sounds terrible everyone can hear it. I left my guitar in my guitar teacher's room once for like a whole week, like in between lessons, and when I got back he's like how'd you go? And I was like yeah, great. And he's like how your guitar's been here for a week, he's got me there.
08:51
Well played, oh man and like could you imagine now, though, like doing weekly or two sessions weekly, and how much that would would cost? And my parents were just paying for that, and I was just fudging it. No, I was. I was like, yeah, I in hindsight could use that time again perhaps but then here we are, so.
09:11 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, exactly, and you know it's all for the plot yeah.
09:19 - Cameron (Guest)
yeah exactly. I should tell people I didn't start till. I was like 25, I'm like wow, you're really good. Thank you. Less good for 15 years of playing.
09:28 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I think you're fabulous.
09:30 - Cameron (Guest)
Thank you Alexis.
09:33 - Alexis (Host)
So that leads me into my next question. What if you could pick a body of work or something that you've worked on that you're most proud of creating? How do you think that came about, and like what is that project?
09:52 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, it's a good question, Thank you. No, I think, like, honestly, there's a lot of stuff I've written lately, like since we've been here and you don't have the social community, like your social community, your friends and family like there's a lot of time to do the stuff that otherwise, you know, extracurricular activity takes out, of which for me is music and writing. There's heaps of stuff. I've got on all the electrics. I've sort of gone away from acoustic for the time being with a lot of things and I'm like spending hours and hours on that and really trying to finesse and get the sound out. So I think I'm going to be really proud of that once it's out.
10:32
But I think the more obvious answer is probably the my first EP and at the moment, my only EP that's out, because that was such a response to my own like I didn't really start writing music, so I was probably 23 or 24, even like at all, and that whole EP was kind of a response, I think, to like probably about six or seven year period where I struggled a lot with anxiety and depression, which I think we hear come up a lot when you listen to, like a creative's podcast or interview, like, I think, mental health stuff and looking for either an expression of that or an escape from that probably comes up in art quite a lot. But like, listening to those the five songs on that, like they're all kind of about that, I mean I didn't really realise writing at the time. And then when you're talking to people about it afterwards or listening to it, um, you so realize you're almost, like you know, writing a letter to yourself. In a lot of ways, um, and I guess, like it's it's called Ruminations because I felt like I just had this huge period of time in my life, like really formative years, where, like was just so stuck in thinking all the time, um, and thinking mostly negative things all the time and being really worried about what everyone else thinks about you, and just like so caught up in that really vicious cycle.
11:42
And so, like you know, it's called Ruminations, because I spend a lot of time ruminating on things, you know, for no real practical or positive gain, I guess, which, like I'm really glad I had that period now and I sort of uh felt like I haven't been there for, uh, probably six years, um, like at all, which has been fantastic um, but I feel like through that period I've, you know, become like I feel like I'm a very empathetic and sympathetic person and um, and have a lot of time, or try to have a lot of time for people that are also, you know, not feeling great or picking up when someone's not feeling great, because I feel like I really understand what that is like, and so I'm proud that that body of work is kind of about that.
12:27 - Alexis (Host)
It's a beautiful record.
12:28 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, thank you, I appreciate it. But yeah, I feel like I've been able to step, take another step away from just writing about your own thoughts, feelings and emotions, and I think it was like really almost like for me, like cathartic in a way, to do that again, like not intentionally, and now it's like it's done, like off your chest. I'm sure it's not done done, but it kind of feels like a full stop on a sentence there for me.
12:53 - Alexis (Host)
I can relate to that. I have, yeah, bodies of work, that that was a time and a place and I wouldn't change it or rearrange it, but that, exactly what you said that door, all that full stop, that door's closed. And now you can like be like okay, what's next?
13:11 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, yeah absolutely that's it. It's like it's there, it’s great, it’s done. Hopefully, at least that is.
13:14 - Alexis (Host)
On the flip side of something that you're proud of, has there been a challenge, or like something that's like a time in your life that's challenged your creativity?
13:31 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, for the last maybe eight months or maybe 12 months, I feel like I've just written so much so I sort of forgot. There was actually like like I wrote, wrote all those songs on the EP and a bunch of my singles, and then it could be like a song every six months or like like sometimes I feel like I wrote a song for a year. I was like man, I feel like now that I've gotten rid of a lot of these emotions that were making, that were really fueling a lot of my music, and also, you know, I'm in a super happy, like loving relationship, whereas, you know, maybe when you're going through a breakup or something, you know that gives you a lot of fuel to write about stuff because your emotions are right at the surface. So I think, like, as I found myself in a way more comfortable place in life and a like way more happy place in life and like way more happy place, I was like I don't have anything to write about, um, and you still do write some stuff, but it didn't really feel very, uh, genuine. I feel a little bit disingenuous because you're like well, it's not really. It's not really where I'm at, um, which is okay to write like that of course, it's where I like it now, um.
But yeah, I think, like one of the things I learned there was also, I was like I have like you also, I want to write in alternate tunings. I want to play this sort of folky music or this sort of alternative kind of stuff, because that's what I listen to and that's what I like. So I'm not going to do anything in standard tunings, I'm not going to do anything that follows basic song structure or just well-known song structure, and so that was probably a real halt on things, because you're like oh, I've already used that shape, I've already used this pattern and this kind of just sounds like that. So I did and I signed up for it and one of it, one of our mutual friends, Ruby shout out, Ruby, she had suggested to me before the iHeart Songwriters Club. It's like online, they put you together with a you know a little online chat group, basically, and you do a song all the time, uh, like one a week for 10 weeks or something like that, um, and you might get a lot done. You might not get much done, uh, but through that I was like, just for time's sake, I'll start playing a bit more in standard um, and you know okay, like I'm sort of have hit a bit of a block here, so I was like I don't understand music theory, but I can understand enough to get my head around like a basic song structure so I can go. Okay, I'm gonna, I know I like to.
15:36
I write a lot in the key of c. I think a lot, of, a lot of people do. Uh, so, okay, what are the chords in c? Okay, cool, these go, and then you sort of put it together, you know okay, and then you do another deep dive, like I'm literally like rope learning this stuff.
15:46
So I'm like looking at youtube videos and like wikipedia on on how to write a song in this thing and so like approaching in a way that was like I'm just going to do it differently to how I normally do it and um, and you know, a couple songs come out of that and I'm like actually I love these little effectively like little four chord bangers in standard tuning, um, and from that I've then gone back into and now I feel like I'm writing a lot, you know electric, alternate, electric, standard, like acoustic, and like it just feels like at the moment. Um, yeah, I feel like I'm writing a lot and I think a lot of that was just by trying to break out of doing exactly what I do. Do something different and everything is everything's a lot more clear and like so much better for it, I guess it's like another tool.
16:27 - Alexis (Host)
I do think we need to judge things up sometimes, like push us out of our comfort zone, like because we do get into a bit of a formula which there's nothing wrong with the formula, but it's good to challenge ourselves and sometimes we need to put ourselves in situations where you're doing the songwriting, you know class, or like something else to others around you to sort of push you a little bit.
16:54 - Cameron (Guest)
Yep. And also, like you have that pressure of like, well, you need to have something next week, so figure something out. It's not quite done, but you know you might have something that you might not ever use that song again. It might've been a shape in there that you really liked chord wise or a verse in there that you really liked. You then take that verse and I think there's something I could do here. That I think there's something I could do here. That verse becomes a chorus, that becomes a song. And it was all because you had you know an hour to just bust out something that you know resembles a song as quickly as you could. So I think, yeah, just looking to do something different, rather than for me, I probably just sat there a lot trying to play something like God, I've got nothing. Like I've really got nothing here. I'm like I'm trying all this stuff, it's just nothing. And, yeah, force the hand a little bit.
17:35 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, now is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating?
17:42 - Cameron (Guest)
The. The obvious one would have, like it has to be this very specific guitar. It's like my first um Maten, which is just recently been retired from gigs because, um, it doesn't quite sound like what it used to, despite a lot of work. So I think I've had that since I was maybe, oh, no 14. Um, it's like beautiful, absolutely love it. Just an old, like pretty, just run the mill, sort of mid range Maten, but like I just love writing on that um, and I've got some other like much better guitars, um, and I just don't really write on them. Um, but when I'm specifically sitting down to put a song together, if I feel like something's coming, coming around, I'm like, oh, there's like an earworm, you know, when you feel you feel you're like, oh, I think love, and I'm feeling very creative and so you go and um, it's pen and paper.
18:30
So I find like I do have a phone full of notes and voice memos and all the rest, but like, as far as you know, maybe I've got something 40 percent done, if I sit down with pen and paper I can probably get it very close to being, you know, majority done, versus if I'm typing in my phone. I don't know why it just um that one's quite essential for me.
18:49 - Alexis (Host)
I'd agree with that. I'd agree with that. If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative what would it be?
19:06 - Cameron (Guest)
This one's such a cliche but truly like writing something that you actually enjoy and or like or painting something, or you know you can do. You can do so many things well, but if you don't like it, it either gets really old really quickly or like you just don't enjoy doing it. So, like you know, say, maybe cover gigs and stuff like that for me is something that like I actually just really don't like doing it. Um, I just find it quite boring.
19:28 - Alexis (Host)
Look, I've done my fair share and I'll be honest, Yeah, yeah, and I really struggle
19:34 - Cameron (Guest)
I love that other people do it and I love playing some covers here and there. Sure, I just really like writing and creating and I feel like playing someone else's stuff um, just doesn't do it for me quite as much. So I think, like really like, do do what you like and you're probably good at it, and I think always, always just look to get better. It was really like you're not gonna be as good today as you are tomorrow and you're gonna be much better next year than this year. And I think like that's such a big thing with art is how rapidly something can improve, at least to everyone else.
20:12
You know, I remember like two years ago you weren't quite this good and so well, I have done it for three hours a day for the last two years. So I would hope I'm a bit, but like, truly like the amount of work that goes into it feels like so much and it is a lot. But the relative time frame I don't think is, you know, you know in in your life or all the rest of it, like it's actually not so much. So I think always be accepting of feedback and trying to grow.
20:34 - Alexis (Host)
Well said. Well said, I mean, we just mentioned that IHeart Songwriting.
20:44 - Cameron (Guest)
Yes, iheart Songwriters Club I believe.
20:45 - Alexis (Host)
iHeart Songwriters Club. Additional to that, as like a resource or something that you've been able to utilize, would you recommend anything else if someone sort of wanted to do what you do, um, or if they wanted to develop their creative process?
21:06 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, I actually I feel like I try and do these things so I can speak for, like, what I've tried and what's worked, like. So, um, trying something different, like really, like truly. Um, I wanted to play everything alternate tune because that makes me super alternative and cool. Uh, so I'm never going to do anything in standard and I start writing in standard a little bit and I'm like this is so much fun. I love these little, these little bops, and like the audience loves them.
21:31
So so, trying something completely different and that might be if you're someone that's always like a really structured, you know we're going to go verse, verse, chorus, um, verse, bridge, chorus, chorus, chorus. Like try and do it completely different. Um, and try, yeah, just just look at anything that's different to what you're doing and see if you can find something in that. It's not a specific resource, but I think like it's also really achievable, like you don't have to pay anything to listen to a Leonard Cohen album on spotify and it's probably really different to anything you're doing, because it's quite strange, um and and yeah, I think, find what motivates you.
22:10
So when I go and see a show, I like to be close to where the guitar pedals are, so I'm like what's this guy doing? there and everything. And then that makes me think, okay, well, now I'm going to go try, I'm going to try some of those things. I saw they were doing that and like. So you're just always like tinkering and and trying new things and different things to what you do, I think.
22:29 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, amazing. Yeah, I do that. I like obsess over, like depending on what people are doing at the shows
22:30 - Cameron (Guest)
Yeah, it's funny, it's like you enjoy it, but sometimes it's like you can't enjoy it because you're um, it's like you're learning. but in a good way, in a great way,
22:41 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I've had this, but yeah but I've had this conversation with someone before about how like I thoroughly immerse myself and enjoy going to live music. But there is I'm, I'm I don't want to say critiquing, cause that sounds bad, but there's definitely an element of like Hmm, yep, they're tight and they're doing this or what they're doing over there.
23:02
Oh, I like that intro. Oh, I like what they did with the backing vocals there.
23:14 - Cameron (Guest)
Do you hear that? Like that seg seg, like how they just went from there to there. That was unreal. Like, um, I think they're using backing tracks here. Yeah, does that sound like a backing track to you? Like it's so funny. Um, that's what Ansel and I always find right. How did it go? I thought it was really interesting that they changed from like that guitar to that one. Just like what? Like, just watch the music, mate.
23:25 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it's so true, I'm exactly the same. One last question yes, if you could hear any other creative, come on this podcast and chat with me and answer these questions, who would it be and why?
23:40 - Cameron (Guest)
There are some great ones, but the list could be like 40 people long um hit me with some, with some. Do you know Idan Shmoné Have you had him on?
Oh, he's incredible. So he's Israeli multi-instrumentalist. You probably would have seen his videos around, but saxophone is a big one for him. He's an incredible singer, incredible songwriter, currently touring with a band, but has toured with a full loop set up where he'll loop ten different instruments and he's an incredible story. Him and I have had a few beers around a fire and I just listened to him talk for four hours and it's just amazing. He's so funny. But yeah, he's come from Israel, moved to Fremantle, just all this stuff is wild. He'd be a great one because he is a story.
24:27
Sunday Lemonade those guys are great because they've just been grinding so hard. I think, um, their story for what I've seen and what I've spoke to them about is like they're always just doing it, that more old school, that old school music way, where you just like tour and tour and grow an audience and they do it so well I think, that's super admirable, because I definitely burnt out a little bit with it after a year and a bit, so so I don't know how they manage it.
24:55
Um, and then gosh all the people in Perth we know, yeah there's just so many there's honestly, I really do feel so inspired by so many people and when you go see them you're like it's just so good when you see everyone else doing so well and you're like I remember when we played this and we did that and, like you, all sort of know each other, it's like it's um, yeah, it's gorgeous, I think yeah.
25:16 - Alexis (Host)
Beautiful. Cameron Alexander, thank you so much for being on the podcast. It's been so beautiful having you through the creative door oh.
25:26 - Cameron (Guest)
Thank you for letting me in. You know I've been knocking for some time, yeah.
25:36 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
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In this episode of Through the Creative Door, Alexis sits down with the multi-talented poet, singer-songwriter, writer & author of ‘The Realest Bitch Out’ and ‘Coming Home To Yourself’ and all round creative spirit, Maja Puseljic. They dive deep into the essence of creativity, exploring the power of freedom in artistic expression and the courage it takes to confront life's challenges through art. Maja shares her journey of turning life's trials into poetry and music, revealing that creativity is born from the raw, unfiltered experiences of everyday life. Whether you're struggling to find your voice or looking for inspiration to push your creative boundaries, this episode will encourage you to embrace the messiness of the process, trust your intuition, and never shy away from asking for help when you need it.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Maja on instagram; @ majaofficialmusic
This episode was recorded on 5 May 2024 on the lands of the Gubbi Gubbi Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
…
Creative resources from Maja:
> BOOK: Jab, Jab, Jab, Right Hook: How to Tell Your Story in a Noisy Social World by Gary Vaynerchuk
> BOOK: Music Business: A Musician’s Guide to the AUstralian Music Industry by Top Australian Lawyers and Deal Makers by Jules Munro and Shane Simpson
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
__________________________________
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, Maja, how are you?
00:51 - Maja (Guest)
I'm good
00:52 - Alexis (Host)
I am so chuffed. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. Well, you've let me actually through your creative door.
00:59 - Maja (Guest)
I have literally,
00:56 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, thank you so much.
00:58 - Maja (Guest)
Thanks for coming
01:01 - Alexis (Host)
Let's just have a little chat about. Well, first off, let's go through. You are such a talented bear, oh, oh, my goodness. Uh, I'm in absolute awe of you. You are a phenomenal poet who has written multiple books. You are a phenomenal singer-songwriter who also plays multiple instruments. Oh my God, and you like teach. And I mean, you've got many strings to your bow as a creative. Have I missed anything?
01:39 - Maja (Guest)
I'm into astrology, tarot and kinesiology right now is what I'm studying. So I'm doing a bit of of like um non-western therapy, and then the music obviously, but I think they're all kind of creative artforms.
01:52 - Alexis (Host)
I think so too. I think it's that um notion of like curiosity and like wanting to learn and like picking things up.
01:59 - Maja (Guest)
It's very intuitive yeah, super intuitive, mediums, yeah, yeah.
02:03 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, love it. Now. I know I'm in your creative space at the moment, but I'm curious what does a creative space mean to you and why?
02:14 - Maja (Guest)
Okay, I did look at this question before. I did try to prepare for it.
So I will say, well, the first line I wrote was freedom. Yeah, so feeling free is the only way to be creative for me, like and not holding back. I think with my poetry I try not to hold back. I say everything I think and they can be confronting for people sometimes and it can be considered too much, but it's also like I think the gold in when you're creating is to not hold back too much. But it's also like I think the gold in when you're creating is to not hold back and to not be afraid to offend or push those boundaries or like you know you got to work with.
02:51
But for me, like, the biggest creativity and like creative inspiration is life. Just like being in the world, like when I'm like okay, I was telling you before like I spent seven or eight hours in the hospital and I wrote a poem just based off all the surroundings that were happening, you know, and the times of the day, like 4am, 5am, 6, like you know, I kind of. So you know, anything can be creative if you want it to be. Like you can make creativity out of just a bad situation, and that's what I love about creating is like trying to turn these bad situations into something special or like something that people can relate to. And I find with my music and my poetry I hope that people think it's like like relevant or funny, but it's like, you know, trying to make fun of life in a certain way, or like you know, those were kind of my favorite people when I was a child, like watching, you know, actors. My mum would take me to the theatre and I would watch like actors perform and I would be like, oh my god, this is so amazing. And I kind of see myself that way, where it's like when I'm performing I'm kind of like an actor, I become the part of my life, like the story that is my life.
04:01
But anyway, to answer the question, really it's about just like the freedom to be able to express and say those things. And I think if you have a filter or you have a block throat chakra or you can't, you don't feel like the audience is feeling you or you don't feel heard in some way. That's like the hardest thing. But when you're in your own creative space or in those spaces where you feel safe, that's when that creativity can like blossom. But for me that could be anywhere. It's just like nice to have the actual room to come back to you know.
04:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, but it's not a quintessential necessity.
04:37 - Maja (Guest)
I don't need to go to like one space to be able to create. It's just like it's nice to have it, you know yeah, yeah.
04:46 - Alexis (Host)
oh, I love it yeah. I mean, this is an interesting question, considering that you have so many ventures. Okay, is there one body of work or one thing that you've created that you're most proud of today?
05:02 - Maja (Guest)
I actually brought the things because I thought might might as well show you my first album. I'll get there. So I've done two EPs and this is the album. I've got another album that's coming, but not maybe in the next two years. But yeah, it was very special because I wrote it based off a book of poetry. I wrote this in Melbourne. It was like when I moved to Melbourne I was like I want to write poetry. Like I literally manifested it. I wrote 2015, I will be living in Melbourne writing my own poetry.
05:32
It's like I think we have like a very filtered world now. We're not allowed to speak or say what we think, and everyone's entitled to their opinion, and I think this was just for me to really say this was my opinion, this is what I think. You know, not everyone has to agree with my opinions, but it was just for me to really say this was my opinion, this is what I think. You know, not everyone has to agree with my opinions, but it was just for me to be able to say them and I feel like it freed me, you know, like it freed me to be fully who I am, you know to write this book and I still have, you know, sometimes fear around it because it's like, oh, what will people think? Like I, still the Gemini in there is still, like you know, questioning.
06:02
But like I wrote it to free myself, really to free myself from, like all the self-imposed restrictions that I felt like society had put onto me and I have to be in this box or I have to be in that box, kind of what we were talking about like just to just to be, like, well, actually I don't have to be, and maybe I fit into this box a bit, and this one a little bit as well, but that's okay, you know. And I, when I wrote the um, the blurb, I wrote like this is for the people who are somewhere in the middle ground and for the loners, like I was really writing for people who felt alone and who didn't feel like they quite fit in, you know, one way or the other way, and they were just a bit more, you know. Yeah, but anyway, that's what I'm proud of right now.
06:47 - Alexis (Host)
I love this. Thank you so much for sharing. On the total opposite side, speaking of juxtapositions, yes, has there been something that a situation or a circumstance or I don't know something, that has challenged your creativity? And yeah, how did you maneuver through over around it?
07:13 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I was thinking about this as well. One I had a very specific instance. I don't know if you want me to tell you the very specific instance, but writing my song Woman I've Become, which was became quite a hit for my career. I would say all my female friends that love it know it. It's like a very strong, like female empowerment song and it's just like. But there was a bit in the song where I was struggling with the producer because we couldn't quite get it to flow like it. We got in certain sections but the middle section was really missing, like just something. It was just, it didn't feel right and I was so stressed. I remember I was dating this guy at the time and he was like no, it needs to be a bit more like you know like just he like drummed it out for me and I was like, yeah, you're right.
08:02
And then my friend came in Jacob, if you're listening. He came in and he has a bit of a producer brain as well. And he just came in and literally what fixed the problem was a tambourine. It was just like, and then it just like it crescendoed when it got to the drums it felt right, it was like missing this huge percussion bit. And after that challenge, in the next time I went into the studio it was like important for me to um tell the next producer like I need the percussion to work and to feel right, you know. So it did like it like he was quite all over the percussion stuff, so I didn't have to worry about that so much. So I mean, that was just like a very specific instance of like where something was quite challenging and like we overcame it, um, with the tambourine.
08:55 - Alexis (Guest)
In that time of the challenge of like, obviously feeling like you're hitting that brick wall, yes, like, what kind of energy? like what was that like for you in that space? Like how were you manoeuvring through that with obviously you're working with your producer. Yeah, how did you manage that?
09:13 - Maja (Guest)
I don't know, I just said we need to bring Jacob in, like we need a third party, like because we were not getting anywhere, so we needed like a mediator, almost. And he was good, because I like getting him in, because he has like a completely different. It's like he just brings in something new that I wouldn't think of, you know. So he just came in and he just thought of the tambourine bit and it just like solved my issue, you know. So that was really nice, like just getting that happening, you know. So, yeah, I didn't at the time I just felt lost and confused and unhappy, but, yeah, until I thought, well, we need someone else, like another perspective. So that's what fixed it, like another perspective, really.
09:55 - Alexis (Host)
I think it doesn't matter what part of our you know journey, we so need to be able to have the ability to lean on our community. True, you know, there are times where, yeah, you just feel a bit like overwhelmed.
10:10 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, as much as I want to be an independent woman that can do it all myself. Like, I know my limits of like. When I need help, I'm not afraid to ask, and I think that's something that what you're trying to say limits of like. When I need help, I'm not afraid to ask, and I think that's something that what you're trying to say is like, when you need help, it's okay to ask, it's okay to receive, and I think a lot of people, and women especially we, can struggle to receive that help. So it's like allowing yourself to receive. You know, yeah, okay, it's okay, let them help.
10:37 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. Do you have any objects or things that you can't live without when you're creating?
10:46 - Maja (Guest)
Yes, I saw that question. Um, I don't know, the only thing I could think of was like my phone.
10:56 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, it is an object, it is a thing. Yes, I'm curious why?
10:59 - Maja (Guest)
uh, because I write all my, my thoughts and my feelings in the phone, like any kind of one-liners that I have, you know, any thoughts that I just like sudden, you know, like anything I think is good, or it all goes in my phone and that's where it begins like a song, even if I have lyrics, I'll write it in the phone. Um, and the guitar also, if it's, if I'm doing musical stuff. The guitar I guess is an object, but mainly the phone. I can record stuff on the phone too. It's just mainly but the note keeping and keeping all my stuff together. It's like just one place.
11:32 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, please tell me you back it up.
11:38 - Maja (Guest)
uh, no, the last, you should have seen the last, um, the last phone I had. I literally dropped it into the ocean and then I actually had 24 hours to save some of the poetry and I still refuse to, because I was like, no, I'm letting go, no, I'm like god, I wish I had that poetry. Not even the photos I lost like 30,000 photos, but it was more the poetry that I wanted back.
11:59 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening. If you take anything from this podcast, back up your data.
12:07 - Maja (Guest)
Well, I've backed everything up onto the cloud now, my website guys forced me.
12:14 - Alexis (Host)
Thank God, someone in your community is telling you to back up things. Yeah. Your stressing me out here.
12:17 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, he's got some Virgo in his chart, so he was is telling you to back up things.
12:19 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another, creative yeah, what would it be?
12:34 - Maja (Guest)
uh, just keep going. That's my advice. Don't give up, just start. You know, like when I first started I did not know how to make an EP. I remember like I didn't even know how to get a gig. I went to an open mic and someone yelled out you're not in tune. And then like that was rough, but then like I just kept going, like I I did like gigs at Grill’d for no money, just to be heard like. And then I I just got better at like trying to book gigs and like I got better at okay, how am I going to make an EP?
13:05
One of my friends was we did composition at uni together, my first EP. We literally recorded it in his bedroom and like we took some of the equipment and recorded piano and it wasn't perfect. I'm like it's somewhere in the box, um, and you know it was like I spent about $800 for print run of 500 CDs that were just like. You know, you slotted in the disc and I got a graphic. I didn't know, I just did the things, I just tried to do the things.
13:34
And then, and even with the book, I was like, how do I do I write a book? I mean, my kinesiologist helped me a lot with that and she was like you know, get a. You know, I got the graphic designer and then it became like you know, I found a print company that I still go with. These books were both printed in the same company like, and you know, I just I just made it happen and I just kept going and I think a lot of people give up or they quit or they're like afraid or because they don't know. You know it might not be good enough, but it's like the only way you're going to be good enough is if you give yourself the permission to try and fail you know,
14:09 - Alexis (Host)
oh, isn't that a gold nugget?
14:14 - Maja (Guest)
and yeah, that's my advice yeah,
14:16 - Alexis (Host)
ah, it is so true, though I think we can get too bogged down in perfectionism. And yeah almost ends up being a noose if we're not careful.
14:29 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, and we don't talk, I don't know if we do talk about it, but I think a lot of artists are perfectionists. We like things because there's an aspect to wanting to control your art and make it. You know that masterpiece or perfect and any kind of creative person you look back and see their history, you'll see that they have some level of like OCD with their art, you know
14:49 - Alexis (Host)
Well, we're curating what actually is that final product that goes out exactly you know,
14:54 - Maja (Guest)
And you want your final product to represent you and you want it to be good and and I think people that sometimes, when you're working with certain people that don't understand that it's because they're not invested in it as much as you.
15:03
But it's like your baby, you know, it's your life, so you don't want your baby to be misrepresented. You want it to be the most authentic version of you, you know, and you want to find people that can support, that are on board with that vision. And it's hard because, again, I want everyone to be in my tribe, but you want to have the people that are like you know, your people that are in the tribe.
15:25
Yeah, and it's like and and people you know. And that's the best part about art. You know you're allowed to listen to fuckng punk rock or metal and you're allowed to listen to like pop or whatever you want. You know it doesn't have to be, and that's why we have all these avenues and one of the good things about capitalism you can just pick and choose what you want. You know, like you're not restricted to to like one thing, so it's like just yeah, like, let your. There's an outlet for whoever like you want to be, you know, and a market and a niche. That was one nice thing I liked about living in Melbourne. You know, you'll find your people.
16:03 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. You definitely have the population to support it.
16:06 - Maja (Guest)
Yes, exactly.
16:13 - Alexis (Host)
Now this might be a tough one because you're coming at it from a poetry side, or I mean, maybe you can give me a list for poetry and like writing, like creative writing versus music, yes, but have you got any advice? If someone wants to do what you do, is there any resources like podcasts or books or…
16:41 - Maja (Guest)
I was trying to think about this because I thought this is a very practical question. It's very you. I appreciated it, but, um, I mean the answer that I wrote down when I was thinking about it was just like, try to find the people that inspire you the most and see what they did. That's my advice is, like, you know, I love, I looked at Bon Iver and I love Kanye and I look at the way that they do things very different. You know like, Bon Iver became famous by having a heartbreak and like, just like, writing in the cabin, yeah, Kanye went to Jay-Z's studio and was like I'm amazing, you want to fuckng hear me, you know, and he kept going and kept persisting until they heard him, you know. So it's like those are two completely different approaches. Right, one, just hap, again, it was destined, you know. And then the other one was sort of destined too, but he, you know, he made it happen in another way. So it's like, but I love both of them and I like how contrasting they are and it's just like, but like the stories inspire me of the people, also for me as a poet.
17:43
I watch a lot of comedians, I care about banter, so I what I like to watch how other people do things and how they deliver their jokes. I'm constantly watching people deliver jokes like like how are they presenting themselves? You know, and I guess it's like you know, if you want to be the best guitarist or whatever, go watch all the guitarists that inspire you and find what you resonate with you know. Or if you want to be a good poet, go watch. You know, for me, read a bunch of books about like that that you like, that resonate with you, because, like I know, I love Sylvia Plath and I'm like these artists and I like certain people, but that's me and that kind of shapes my style, you know.
18:24
But, like, I guess the inspirational stories is what I really look for. So it's like you got to find your inspirational stories that other people do, and then you become the inspirational story. Amen, sister, yeah but actually I'll just say one more thing that did help me, one of the books that I read Gary Vaynerchuck. Do you know, Gary?
18:47 - Alexis (Host)
I do not Tell us more yeah.
18:49 - Maja (Guest)
He's like a. He wrote a marketing book called Jab Jab Right Hook and it was just about social media marketing, like how to make posts on insta and facebook and twitter, and that helped me a lot, just like with my not in an artistic way, but in like my career way. Music business. Yes, exactly, and the music business book is pretty good too yes by Shane Simpson and Jules Monroe.
19:15
Yeah, I actually need to go through that properly. But yeah, it's got some good advice and yeah. But I mean I like to read also, just like you know, just other type, like you know spiritual books as well and stuff, and doesn't have to be um music per se. But writing has helped me a lot and reading yeah yeah,
19:36 - Alexis (Host)
I was just about to say. I would suggest that your poetry as as an author, like yeah, I read a lot.
19:42 - Maja (Guest)
I read a lot. I read a lot of classics. Yeah, like you know, Picture of Dorian Gray, Catcher in the Rye, Anna Karenina. Like you know, old school Tolstoy, like, just like the, the classics were really important for me as a writer because I learned how to write from that. It, like, was a good basis of being a better writer. So, yeah, love that. You know, that's my advice go find the people that you like, guys, and then let them mold, you know, help you..
20:18 - Alexis (Host)
Feed the brain. One last question Yep, If you could hear another creative come onto this podcast and answer for me to interview and answer these questions, who would it be, and why?
20:29 - Maja (Guest)
Probably my best friend, Kate. Okay, kate Lusetta. She's just a really good songwriter and I feel like she'd have some good answers for you interesting.
20:42 - Alexis (Host)
All right, I'll have to uh look her up and uh send you her details yeah, please do, yeah, please.
20:57 - Maja (Guest)
She's in Mcleod so oh, she's down in Melbourne
20:59 - Alexis
Amazing, she's close uh, thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door This has been such a joy. Absolutely fills my cup.
21:01 - Maja (Guest)
Yeah, me too. I'm glad you're in my space. I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming.
21:10 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
-
Join us in this inspiring episode of Through the Creative Door, where host Alexis Naylor sits down with Rae Leigh—a talented country singer-songwriter, actor, creator, mother and host of the Songwriter Trysts podcast. Rae shares her deeply personal journey, from overcoming the trauma of childhood abuse to finding solace and purpose in music. She opens up about the power of creative spaces, the importance of being prepared, and the courage to step into fear and pursue your dreams. This conversation is a heartfelt reminder that creativity can be a lifeline and a source of healing.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Rae Leigh on instagram; @ raeleighaus @ songwritertrysts
This episode was recorded on 2 May 2024 on the lands of the Bundjalung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
…
Creative resources from Rae Leigh:
> Podcast: Songwriter Trysts
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—-----------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, Rayleigh, I am so chuffed to be here. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
00:55 - Rae Leight (Guest)
Thanks for having me
00:56 - Alexis (Host)
We go way back. We've known each other and we grew up in country Victoria together. We went to the same school. we went to the same church.
01:05 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
You were like confident and creative and I was like shy and very nerdy.
01:11 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, it's the yeah
01:13 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I was the nerd. That's okay. I own it now I've come to terms with it. I was a nerd. We can't all be pretty and amazing.
01:21 - Alexis (Host)
Oh stop it, right back at you sister. So let's start with a little bit about you. You oh, my goodness, what a rap sheet that you have. You are such a phenomenal country singer-songwriter, very talented, you act which I'm keen to know more about. How that's even come about? But one thing that I'm, just from afar, so proud of you for creating is being the creator and host of the Songwriter Trysts. It's a podcast which you have got on your T-shirt. We've got in the background.
02:04 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
This is for the retreat. This is specifically 2024 retreat, which we're about to experience.
02:09 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious, especially because you do lots of different creative ventures what does a creative space mean to you and why do you think.
02:21 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
A creative space to me means I have the complete freedom and the space, and that means a little bit of financial security you know, I think you need to have your basic needs as a human kind of met to allow yourself to be creative.
02:37
Financial security, food roof all that stuff helps you to be able to create away from desperation, um, so you need hope. I guess if you don't have hope that you have the ability to overcome, or overcome whatever challenge that you want to create, to solve whatever um, then you won't and you'll feel defeated and you'll feel trapped and then that's a really bad mental health space to be in. So, yeah, that's probably, I don't know, is that what you meant?
03:07 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, well, I mean it's interesting over the course of the interviews that I've done so far. Like some people, a creative space is a physical and in you know,
03:18
I was talking about mental space.
03:20
Well, that's what I mean, but everyone's different, and I think you know, for some people if the mental space is not's what I mean, but everyone's different and I think, okay, you know, for some people, if the mental space is not there, then it doesn't matter whether you're in a beautiful fancy studio or you're in a hotel room. If you're not headspace, you're not in the headspace. What is something that you're proud of creating?
03:43 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I've got a new EP coming out, so I'm really proud of that more proud than. I've ever been of any of my music, which is really cool. I think that's a normal creative thing, though so we're always most proud of the last thing we just did.
00:53 - Alexis (Host)
The thing that’s at the forefront
03:58 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Most proud of the last thing we just did. I'm proud of the times that I've stepped into my fear and I've not let my fear stop me from doing something, just said yes to so many different things that I previously wouldn't have said yes to because I was scared. I didn't. I mean I wouldn't. I didn't even sing in public until 2019, outside of church and, I think, at school once. I have songs that I like more, so there's a song called All of Me. I have songs that I like more, so there's a song called All of Me, and I find it really hard to even say that I wrote this song, because I didn't technically, I just sang it.
04:32
I was testing out my recording, my new recording equipment. I pressed record and I just played and I went into my flow and I played this song and I finished. I was like, oh, that's kind of cool, I'll just chuck it up on Facebook. I did that exactly as it was, and then someone took that off Facebook, got a backing track created, got me into a closet and recorded the vocals, got it mastered overseas and gave it to me as it was, that is so special.
05:02
Sitting in the car and listening to this fully mastered version of this song, that kind of I didn't write, I sang, like I kind of, you know, I wrote it and I still don't even know what it meant, but it felt so good and I was listening to it in the car and I was like I didn't know that my voice could sound like that. Whatever this person did, I didn't know that I could create something that sounded so professional.
05:28 - Alexis (Host)
I guess that sort of leads me into my next question, which is has there been something in particular that's challenged your personal creativity, and what was the major lesson, do you think?
05:42 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I mean, I entered into the creative industries in my 30s, which we've talked about ageism and as being a woman. That's like insane, which which is also stupid, like that's. That is not a belief and I'm not going to preach that. Um, I disagree with that. I was being very sarcastic with that but, um, when I was younger, I so I had a an abusive sexual relationship with an uncle who was in my family. He was like my mum's foster brother, and so I was sexually abused from around the age of three or four is when it started and it went right and through until I was about 12 when I started to get very good at avoiding being around when he was in the house and I would go to a friend's house or I could do homework because, you know, I just I learned what was going to be an acceptable excuse to not be around the house and I had more, you know, independence as a 12 year old at high school and um.
06:33
But I was groomed in a way that I thought it was my shame, I thought it was my fault. I didn't feel loved, I didn't believe I was lovable, I didn't think I was as valuable as other people because I'd been abused and I felt like I had been taken advantage of and I thought it was my fault. I thought I was a sinner and I was a bad person and that I'd asked for this attention. And the reality was was like my parents had six kids. They were running the local church. My dad was a Vietnam veteran dealing with PTSD, my mum had a child at 42 and had postnatal depression, so they weren't emotionally available and I was very neglected and I was very by myself as a little kid and all of a sudden I started getting attention from this uncle. And as a child and as adults, we all need attention. There's nothing wrong with attention. It is a human essence that we need, like food and air and sleep. We have to have some form of connection and attention from someone, and as a child, I was starved of attention and I started getting sexual attention from this man, and so it was a very confusing time of growing up, thinking that I liked it, also trying to protect my little sister, making sure that he didn't give her attention. So if I saw that he was going towards her, I would be like no, I want to play with you, you know. So it was a really challenging time.
07:56
And then, once I started to learn to avoid it, I did high school, and it just became this like shameful part of my own story that it was my sin, that I had to hide, I had to shave. I put this big mask on, I became the nerdy kid. I became the worship ministries leader and the school captain, and I tried to be the good person that everyone wanted me to be. I tried not to be shy, because when you're shy, people like are you okay? And I hated that question right. So I got really good at being in big groups. I had one friend who, um, I was able to say I had a best friend, so that no one thought I was weird and had no friends. You know, it's like I created this world of mask around me to make me appear like I was fine, so that no one would see how simple I thought I really was.
08:47
And in that shame, though, I found music. So when I was about six, I saw my dad playing the piano and I just felt it. I just felt that peace that came with it. So I started getting piano lessons, and when other people were away, I would be learning and doing stuff on the piano, and I learnt drums because my piano teacher said I had no rhythm. I think she was just trying to get my parents to pay for more lessons.
09:14
When we were travelling, I would do music theory and I was obsessed, but I never told anyone and I was very shy because the music was attached to my shame and the music was attached to who I really was and my core belief and this is this is where core beliefs is a whole thing.
09:30
You should check it out but my core belief was that I was unlovable, that I was not valued and that if people really knew who I was, that I would be completely cast out. So and that was that was attached to my music, because when I, when I sat at the piano or when I wrote even I had I have so many diaries when I was younger, when I would write and I can't spell either dyslexic and crazy, and I was terrible at English, and now I'm a writer. It's so weird I tell my kids that because my son is like I can't, I'm bad at English and I'm like you can be really good at something. Just because you can't spell doesn't make you bad, because storytelling is a really big part of English.
10:09 - Alexis (Host)
Storytelling is a lot to do with what we do with songwriters
10:12 - Rae Leight (Guest)
Exactly, and I'm like I laugh at it sometimes because English teachers that I had as a kid would be like if I had have told them that I was going to do anything to do with writing or spelling they would laugh their ass off.
10:26
So, yeah, it's one of those things that I think I just was attached to me, processing my emotions.
10:32 - Alexis (Host)
Music was your lifeline,
10:35 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
It was my lifeline, it was my prayer, like I was calling out to God, and a lot of my songs of just like help me, I'm suffering, like I'm just I can't breathe because I was so stressed, organizing my life so that no one could see what was happening because I was this bad person that that blocker was there because of the shame of what I was, and the music gave my body a manifestation of a way to process the body stuff that my brain could check out of. So there was, like this, what do you call it? Decompartmentalisation? That was happening and this is why, in my podcast, I say music saved my life because, it really did so because music was my lifeline and I could see people being rejected when they showed someone their music and then they got rid of their music, I was like all of a sudden like I'm like this is my music. No one's going to take this me. I'm never showing anyone this because if they take my music from me, I will die I've got nothing, I will have nothing.
11:44
And and I believed that and I say that loud now and I'm like, but like, I honestly believed that if someone took my music from me, I would have nothing. I'd have absolutely nothing. And when I became a mum at the age of 23, I very quickly became aware that I was a victim of child sexual abuse. I didn't have the belief, like the understanding, that I was a child. Do you know what I mean? It was just I brought it on, I was groomed, you know, and so I thought it was my fault. I'd asked for it. Blah, blah, blah, 23, holding a baby in my hands. Oh my gosh, this baby is not going to know the difference between right or wrong, probably for the next 20 years, but let's give them at least 10. You know like they don't know anything and they fully rely on adults around them to tell them what is right or wrong.
12:34
And that was when the penny dropped. I was like, I was taken advantage of, I was sexually abused and I was a victim of sexual abuse. And all of a sudden there was just everything changed. This mother wolf was born. So I reported it to the police with the support of my husband the reluctant support of my parents because they were worried about further traumatisation. I thought, as long as I tell the police, then the blood's off my hands, the authorities know and then they can deal with it. And then it did.
13:02
It turned into like a fast-tracked three-year court case. It went to trial in Victoria, which is where it happened, and I got a guilty verdict. It took three days to share my testimony and I was cross-examined and it was really intense. But we got a guilty verdict of nine different charges of indecent sexual assault towards a minor and along with that whole court case and the closure that I had because of that and the healing that was able to start happening from that and I felt something I had never felt before in my life, I felt happy. I have a song actually called I Need Faith that I released and that was the song that I sang through my entire life.
13:45 - Alexis (Host)
That's very brave to be able to be that transparent. So thank you. Now, when you're creating, do you have an object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating, and why?
13:58 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Like outside of, like my guitar and my piano and stuff. I still like to write on a notepad and pen.
14:03 - Alexis (Host)
Well, yeah, for some people they've yeah, said that you know it's their instruments, even though they're a tool. And some people it's um. Had one person they still have the printout um ticket from the first concert that they ever went with their dad.
14:23- Rae Leigh (Guest)
Oh, that's so cool
14:26 - Alexis (Host)
And it just they don't look at it all the time. It's it's, but it sort of sits near their computer and it's just a thing that they know is there. Yeah, it's not's not like they, you know, it's their lucky ticket that they have to touch or something, but it was yeah. So everyone's different. Everyone's got either a thing or a not thing.
14:40 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
I mean, I have journals and like Bibles from when I was a kid, that like were my you know life, that I look at now and can barely comprehend what I'm saying because it's in like dyslexic speech that I've never thrown out.
14:58 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice to another creative person, what what it be?
15:06 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
If you're always in the right place and you're always prepared, eventually it'll be the right time. And I have had people go oh how do you always get all these opportunities? And like, how do you do this stuff? And I'm like, I'm prepared, like I practice my instruments, I'm constantly writing new songs, I've always got more product adding to my catalog. I'm working every day behind the scenes being prepared. You have to be confident enough in your skill of what you do that you can drop everything and do that tomorrow. So, yeah, be prepared,
15:41 - Alexis (Host)
Perfect advice. I love it. What resources would you recommend if someone wanted to do what you do or just as another creative? Yeah, like someone who wants to develop their creative process.
15:52 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Read books. I mean, I love self-development books so I'm on Audible because I am a taxi mum, I'm driving to schools so I listen to audiobooks all the time and there are so many great audiobooks. I could just show you my library and that's a great way for me to absorb, even like driving to Victoria two Audible books in that 17-hour period. It's great. And then music.
16:15 - Alexis (Host)
That's why I love driving across the Nullarbor or driving around WA, because it's so massive and you just get to immerse.
16:19 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
And when I fly, I'll take a book, so I love reading and getting other people's experiences and I totally think it's absolutely fine if you're only half-read a book. Sometimes you'll be through a book and you'll know whether you want to spend or invest your time in that book or not. Um, I try to finish it, but sometimes you will find books that just aren't page turners. Don’t force it.
16:41 - Alexis (Host)
If you could have any other creative, come on to this podcast and answer these same questions. Who would you want to hear answer these questions and why?
16:56 - Rae Leigh (Guest)
Leonard Cohen. I really like Leonard Cohen and I don't know why. So I would be curious. I'm curious as to how and why his brain ticks, because he has his books of poetry, all his lyrics and songs and just has that power in his creativity to bring people together and feel that way and treat each other in such a way. That's a gift.
17:26 - Alexis (Host)
Rayleigh, thank you so much for coming through the creative door. This has been, I feel, so privileged to have had this chat with you. Thank you for being so gracious with your words and your story and, yeah, thank you for the laughs too. You're such a vibe, so great. Thank you, thanks, very good. Thank you.
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom forward slash through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
-
In this episode of Through the Creative Door, host Alexis Naylor dives into the vibrant world of pop punk with singer, producer, and multi-instrumentalist Blake William. Blake shares insights into her creative process, the importance of nurturing a safe space for artistic expression, and her journey as an openly transgender artist. From discussing the challenges of overcoming self-doubt to reflecting on her own projects, Blake offers an honest and inspiring glimpse into her life in music. She also reveals her go-to tools for creating, offers valuable advice for aspiring musicians, and shares the special memento that keeps her motivated.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Blake on instagram; @ blakewilliamsau
This episode was recorded on 13 April 2024 on the lands of the Eora Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Creative resources from Blake:
> Ultimate Guitar: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/
> GarageBand
> Logic
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—-----------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Hello Blake, how are you going?
00:51 - Blake (Guest)
I'm not too bad, thanks. How are you doing?
00:53 - Alexis (Host)
I am amazing, also very chuffed, to be here chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door. Well, I'm actually coming through your Creative Door because I'm in your amazing space
01:05 - Blake (Guest)
Yeah, thank you for having me. It's awesome. I'm super, super happy to be part of it.
01:11 - Alexis (Host)
So good. Can I just say your music is so goddamn catchy, it's earwormy. So earwormy.
01:19 - Blake (Guest)
Thank you, I'm sorry I do have to say this thing about Breathe, to give the compliment back. I was listening to Breathe this morning and it's been also in my head.
01:27 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, thank you. Yeah, I feel really chuffed. I got to work with a friend with that song and it was just I don't know. It's like what we do is nice to work with community and yeah, it's cool.
01:39 - Blake (Guest)
But the best things always come out of those sort of collabs.
01:42 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, exactly, that's why I love what we do. Yeah, um, but back to you, because we're going to talk about you. Um, you, for those listening, you have this amazing, uh, body of work doing like pop punk, I mean. You were a very multi-talented bear, you, because, of course, I wouldn't be doing my job right if I hadn't stalked you. So I know that you can play lots of instruments Guitar was your first instrument, yes, but you can play drums and you're an amazing producer and you've got a phenomenal tone in your voice. But so I'm just so excited to chat with you. I feel a bit starstruck. So the format of the Through the Creative Door is and I sent you all these questions beforehand but what does a creative space mean to you?
02:42 - Blake (Guest)
I think for me it's a, and I might get a little bit sappy with this, I think it's a place where you can, a place where you can be vulnerable. Um, like this space that we're in today is my little makeshift uh recording studio, which is by all means nothing fancy, but I know that I'm safe in here. Um, I have all my animals around me, my wife around me, and I know that I just feel comfortable in here. And there are things like even just recently, there's some songs I've written where there's a line I'm like I don't think I should do that.
03:19
Maybe that's too far me, that's this, but maybe in another space I would feel less confident with that. But just being here, I'm like, no, you know what, I'm here, that's this, but maybe in another space I would feel less confident with that. But just being here, I'm like, no, you know what, I'm just going to take this chance and I'm very much I'm very much a homebody. So just kind of having a space, whether it be this or even just in my house, having that, to just sort of absorb myself in it, it really is helpful and allows me to sort of block out any extra noise, even if it's like internally there's voices like you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do this, being in a space that you're so comfortable with and you're so used to it. Just it lets you be more vulnerable and I really, I really appreciate that about the little space I've sort of built for myself.
04:07 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing, amazing. Speaking of bodies of work and, um, yeah, doing that reflection, have you a body of work or a piece of work that you're most proud of creating and do you want to share? Or can you share, like, how that came about?
04:27 - Blake (Guest)
um, I think it's the typical artist thing to say the latest thing I've or the next thing I have coming is my favorite, but I I don't know, I think, like the two that come to mind again, maybe recency bias but the latest single I've put out um, at the time of recording this, was Renegade, which I put out in January, I believe earlier this year, and it was as you mentioned earlier. I've been doing pop punk. That's basically what I was raised on. It's what I've shaped my songwriting around, my production around, and while I am really happy with all the songs I've done in the past and how they've sounded, this one was just like I intentionally wanted it to be basic musically, like melodically, just four chords. Lyrically, like it's still something really important and I mean it really means a lot to me. But I just wanted it to be simple, straightforward and I feel like I nailed it with that that I'm just like like all it's weird, all this extra hard work goes into making something sound like it's less work, if that makes sense, like. There's definitely songs I've done before where I've, like um, overanalyzed too much and I'm still happy with the song but it might be a little bit messy or just bits and pieces here, whereas this one it ended up just being like not perfect, but for what I wanted. It was exactly what I wanted and I was super happy with that.
05:55
And then the other one that comes to mind is um, a song I released a few years ago now I think it was during during the COVID times. Lockdown times called Anymore, and it was the first time I'd ever worked with loops. So like I use Logic Pro for all my production and there's a massive loop library there that just takes up a shit ton of space on my hard drive. But I never touched it and I was just like I wonder what stuff's in here and like I I can't say I'm uh super fluent in EDM or anything, but I I do enjoy some, like if I hear like house music or just some types of EDM, like I quite enjoy that.
06:34
And I was like I wonder if there's a way just to sort of implement that. And I just found this loop that was really catchy, very EDM, very like house music, edm, very like house music. But I just kind of put like big drums to it, big guitars to it and wrote this chorus melody that was fairly simple but it like I went into falsetto, which I'd never done before, and just kind of like all over the place, but I think that's uh. I kind of have, uh, the extreme on both ends. I have Renegade, where I just want to be as simple as possible. I love how that turned out. And then I have Anymore which I wanted to play around with and experiment with and I still like I'll listen to it now sometimes and be like okay, no, I am still, I am so happy with that, almost like reassure myself like was I just kind of caught up in in the moment, but like no, I still enjoy that, I'm still happy with how that went yeah.
07:28 - Alexis (Host)
Now getting real personal here. Has there been something personally or like yeah, through your career or like something that has challenged your creativity, and how do you think you were able to overcome that?
07:47 - Blake (Guest)
I think the biggest thing has probably been like, I'm quite openly transgender and I came out 2021 I believe it was and after that I still was doing music, I was recording stuff, I was writing stuff, but it wasn't, it wasn't as frequent, uh, I wasn't doing as much and it was kind of, I guess, a bit of the voice in my head like you have to completely change or you can't do the same thing or or whatever, whatever dumb thought it may be. Again, apologies for my lovely dogs in the background, but, um, yeah, like I have a friend, I have a, I have a friend who's also transgender. She's an artist herself, and both of us met after both coming out and sort of restarting our careers or rejuvenating, whatever it is. And it was funny we both we realized we both had that same mentality of like, damn, am I not gonna be able to do music anymore, I'm not gonna be able to do this.
08:50
And then I think a big influence for me, um, even before coming out, was, um, Laura Jane Grace of Against Me, um, an amazing punk band from Chicago, and seeing that she embraced her true self, like she was able to be who she truly was, but then also she didn't compromise herself as a musician, like she still sang the same way, she still performed the same way. She was just, she was who she wanted to be, and I think that really helped of like, okay, I don't need to, I guess, fabricate someone else or whatnot, like I can still just perform like I always perform I'll. I mean, now I'll dress how I want to dress and obviously identify how I do. But, um, but yeah, I think a mix of a mix of seeing her and how she refused to, I guess, give in to that, um, that pressure any preconceived.
09:51
Yeah, exactly yeah and then, um, even once I'd already started doing things again, um, that good friend of mine her name is Noctica, you should definitely check out her stuff um, but, um, having having that talk and both sort of realizing, like, once you get into it, like yeah, I can still do this, like no one's. It's no one but the, the voice in your head that's saying you need to change this, we need to do this. So I think that was a that was a bit of a thing to overcome, but then it was it's such a little thing that felt like such a big thing. So once you overcome that, it's like oh this, what was I so worried about? But at the time it feels like a monumental thing that you've got to overcome. So, yeah, I think that's probably probably the biggest thin
10:37 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you so much for sharing. Okay, so we're going to talk about like this is so random, but I love it. Is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating, like sentimental or like just like a tool that you just like can't creative without?
11:04 - Blake (Guest)
I mean my brain went to the obvious of guitar, laptop, microphone, but, um, I don't know. Like I'm looking around my little space now I just kind of have little trinkets of like collected stuff over the years, like I just have so much stuff everywhere. But I think one thing that's really cool and honestly I haven't even really thought about it until right now. But, um, I have a ticket from the first ever like proper concert I went to, which was ACDC, and I was like 10 years old, so that's awesome and I think like I don't even notice it's there most of the time, it's just there. But I think it's really cool having that to just sort of be like that's the first time being like, oh shit, I want to do this and now I'm definitely not on that scale yet. Hopefully one day. But like yeah, it's. I guess subconsciously it's a little reminder of like keep pushing, you're all well, you're almost there, in a way amazing.
12:07 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Who bought you that ticket? Who went with you?
12:11 - Blake (Guest)
um, I think that was my dad and my uncle. Um, my uncle passed away a few years ago and he was always a massive ACDC fan. So, especially looking back in hindsight, that was a really special thing to be a part of and, um, yeah, it was just amazing. I still remember having because I think the only concert I'd been to before was maybe the Wiggles growing up which hey don't, I'm not knocking, I'm not knocking.
12:37
I'm not knocking, but I'd say like not that I, not that child me, regretted that, but it wasn't necessarily my choice. Whereas this was, this was your choice. This was my. I'm going to ACDC, but I just remember having earplugs. I think I got given earplugs because like, oh, it's going to be loud, it's going to be loud. And then the second it started I was just like, no, don't need that. Which is, maybe I should have stuck with earplugs for all those years and many, many, many gigs. But here we are.
13:01 - Alexis (Host)
You can still hear, you're fine.
13:06 - Blake (Guest)
I can hear I might need a hearing test, but I can hear I might need a hearing test, but I can hear.
13:11 - Alexis (Host)
Tomato, tomato. Yeah, if you had a chance to give another creative a nugget of advice or a bit of wisdom.
13:22 - Blake (Guest)
what would that be? Oof See, I find that so hard because I feel like I'm the one still wanting and needing advice.
13:31 - Alexis (Host)
Well, you could flip it and be like if someone wanted to do what you do.
13:36 - Blake (Guest)
I think I have just from recent times. I think I have a good one. Like 12 months ago my goal was I want to play shows again. I haven't played since COVID. Even then I wasn't doing too much like some sort of background gigs. But I want to be playing with bands that I love or venues that I love, and I pretty much just for all intents and purposes, just went, fuck it and just emailed every single venue, every single promoter, and majority of them I never heard from. Some of them were just like oh, you know, not really I want to blah, blah, blah. But then there's the ones that did stick gig back, I guess, which was at um Crowbar in Sydney, one of my absolute favourite venues, favorite places to be. So that was insane. And then to this day I'm still, just, still, just emailing people until either they tell me to stop or just, or they'll just be like just give her a gig, just just give her a gig. See what happens.
14:37
And I mean for the most part, most part it's worked out and like, from that I have sort of met more people from that community or that I was talking about and have networked more. And I'm the most socially awkward, shy person like. When I'm on stage I feel quite comfortable. It's almost like another character in a way. I can just sort of like turn that up for half an hour 45 minutes, but when I'm off stage I'm super anti-social, like.
15:07 - Alexis (Host)
You mentioned before that you like being at home.
15:13 - Blake (Guest)
Yes, very much a homebody. I'd say I've improved over the last year. I think finding this community has really helped that, like having like-minded people that I'm like, oh, I'm actually excited to, you know, go hang out with someone or go to a show with someone or whatnot. But yeah, usually I'm just super anti-social, but I've just sort of it started with forcing myself to like okay, I want to network with people, I want to, I want to find people I can work with and eventually that turns into becoming friends with people and it just has made the whole thing a lot easier. So, long story, short email people until they tell you to shut up.
15:52 - Alexis (Host)
That is the best quote, the best advice yeah
15:56 - Blake (Host)
I'm glad I'll put that on a shirt.
15:58 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. Well, you're going to put it on a post-it note later.
16:00 - Blake (Guest)
Yes, I'll remember it.
16:05 - Alexis (Host)
I've got some extra questions. Yes, knowing that you have delved into like production and obviously you, like you were saying before about you know learning different instruments do you have any advice of whether it be software or or like resources for learning instruments? Or, if someone wanted to do what you do, what resources would you suggest?
16:32 - Blake (Guest)
Like I'd have for guitar and vocal. In terms of instruments, I'd say they're my main ones. I did start with tutors and start with lessons, like when I was really young. I think I started guitar when I was like six years old and I just sort of got to a point with that where not that I didn't need lessons like I know there's still a million more things I could do but I was just comfortable at a point where I could help myself progress. And there's some great websites like Ultimate Guitar I've used, which has like chords and tabs and stuff. But even over the last few years I think they've started introducing like videos and tutorials and stuff like that.
17:14
It's really weird. I feel like I'm the last of the generation before like YouTube learning, like I obviously grew up with YouTube but I had in-person physical lessons which like people who completely teach themselves or learn online, like that's amazing. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I will say there is. There is something still valuable on that, like one-on-one connection. Um, like, I still remember a lot of my early guitar lessons in those formative years but, um, yeah, I'd say I'd say whatever works best honestly, like even now I'll if there's a song I hear that I want to cover or I want to learn that riff or something like I'll just try and teach myself by ear. If I can't do that, I'll look up the tab or look up the chords. So like, obviously you don't need me to say it, but there's a million and one ways that you can learn nowadays.
18:15
But, um, one thing specific to me, I think, when people ask about production, I use a software called Logic Pro. Um, it's kind of Pro Tools has always kind of been considered the industry standard, at least that's what I was always told. But, um, logic Pro, I've always preferred just a bit more, bit more songwriter, creative, friendly, and basically I started by playing around with GarageBand. I was like oh, what do these inputs do? What do these EQs do? What's a compressor? Blah, blah, blah.
18:45
And then, it just happened to be by chance, our school was offering a course. I think it was like a week course we could go to outside of school where you learn about songwriting and production, which was amazing and the instructor there was using Logic. So I was like, what is this? And because it looks just like GarageBand, but like on steroids pretty much and I went home, um, got logic maybe not straight away I had to convince a parent to let me buy it, but, um, but eventually got logic and I sort of took what I'd learned in GarageBand into this but then was like, oh, I can go further with this.
19:26
It purely just became trial and error, like I listened to not all the time, but I have gone back and listened to recordings I've done when I was like 13 or 14. And at the time I was like this is amazing, this is so cool. I listen. Now I'm like, oh, that was terrible, which I'm sure everyone does but objectively this was production, objectively this was terrible.
19:48
And I just kind of like just taught myself more. I um like found like Logic has amazing plugins built in, but I found like external plugins I could buy, that really sort of helps the sound that I want. And then, if it does get there, there have been some things where I'm like, oh, I want to do this one thing, but I can't quite get there myself, so I'll watch a YouTube video on it and then that'll open up another door of like oh, what's this? And yeah, it just kind of goes nuts from there. But from my personal experience and whatever I've said to anyone who's interested in production, if you can start with GarageBand, if you've already played around with it when you were younger or whatnot, give Logic a go, because it's just GarageBand on steroids. And as long as you're, as long as you have the interest and wanting to put the work and time in, like it's so great for just it's just a wealth of knowledge.
20:48 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing.
20:50 - Blake (Guest)
I notice I have very long winded answers.
20:52 - Alexis (Host)
No, I love it. It's so great. That's what I want. Okay, one last question. If you could have anyone come on this podcast and answer these questions, any kind of creative who would it be and why?
21:09 - Blake (Guest)
I think for me it would have to be someone that I idolize, because I have many like musicians and producers I look up to that, like I could listen to them talk for hours just about their process, about what they do, just the little minutiae of everything. I have two that come to mind and they're sort of linked because they've worked together a long time.
21:30
Um, Luke Hemmings from Five Seconds of Summer so Five SOS has always been, uh, well, pretty much since they've been a thing, I have been my favorite band. They became my biggest influences because they I'm originally from Penrith, they're from like the Richmond Hill sort of area, and I always saw them as like the hometown band, and just seeing them succeed to this day has always pushed me to be like shit, if they did it from friggin Windsor, like I can do it. Maybe I'm still trying, but maybe. And then John Feldman, who produced their first two records. He's done some stuff recently, but he is just, uh, an absolute icon in pop, punk, alternative rock. Um, I'd say, from like 2013 to 2017 or 18, like all of my favourite albums, all my favourite records, came from him.
22:24 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Oh, Blake Williams, what an absolute pleasure it's been chatting with you. Thank you so much for coming on to Through the Creative Door.
22:32 - Blake (Guest)
That's all right, thank you, it's been such a joy. Thank you so much. This has been amazing.
22:43 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffeecom forward slash through the creative door or via the link in our Instagram bio where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favourite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
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Join Alexis as she delves into the lush, plant-filled world of Carl Knox, a 3D artist, mural artist, photographer and videographer whose journey spans from anime-inspired artistry to astrophysical content creation. Carl shares his inspiring story of transforming a childhood passion into a diverse career, tackling challenges, and finding joy in his customised creative spaces. From his poignant mural tribute to his dog Zen to designing innovative solutions for his father, Carl's reflections on the value of a supportive environment, balance and the importance of time and space in creativity. Tune in for an honest, heartfelt conversation that celebrates the artistic spirit and the pursuit of one's creative dreams.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Carl on instagram; @knoxcarl
This episode was recorded on 8 February 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor.
If you love what you hear and would like to support us, donate to: https://buymeacoffee.com/throughthecreativedoor
Creative references from Carl:
MasterClass: https://www.masterclass.com
The Creative Act: A Way Of Being - Rick Rubin
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—---------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. May we pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. I’m delighted to welcome you to Through the Creative Door.
Well, hello, Carl. How are you? Thank you.
00:53 - Carl (Guest)
Thank you
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
I am so chuffed. Thank you so much for letting us come through your creative door that's filled with so many plants. I'm so excited about this.
01:02 - Carl (Guest)
Plants make me happy. They make, make, yeah, they clean the air, they look visually beautiful and, uh, yeah, they definitely make my creative space much more pleasant to be in.
01:17 - Alexis (Host)
And it’s such gorgeous light coming in here absolutely stunning. Um, I want to start with a bit about you before I launch into all these questions. I don't even know where to start. You are such a talented bear, oh my goodness. I mean, truth be told, I'd already done a little stalky stalk of you before we had a chat today, but even off mic we just had a bit more of a chat of like sort of current work and things that you're doing.
01:42 - Carl (Guest)
Wonderful. I love tech. I love computers. I used to love Astro Boy watching cartoons. Astro Boy for me is a Japanese cartoon. I used to love drawing and painting in the Japanese style of manga and anime. That's where I started. I had a job in the tax office at tech support doing help desk, helping people install tax software over the phone and while I was taking calls I'd be drawing out of an anime book and learning. You know those?
02:11
How to draw manga books yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, so I loved that sort of stuff, so I started drawing, and then my dad saw that I had an interest in art and he found a 3D animation course in Melbourne and I lived in Canberra at the time.
02:24
So he said do you want to do this? And I said absolutely so. Dad was always very supportive of me studying the arts and becoming some form of artist and then, once I'd got that scholarship to go into computer animation, everything else just fell away for me. I didn't really focus on my school, like my high school grades. I didn't get the greatest grades in high school because I already knew what I wanted to be. Yeah, like I don't need to go to university, I've got my future set ahead of me, like yeah. And so I went down that path hard, all in being an artist amazing.
02:58 - Alexis (Host)
I know that I'm in your lovely home. Thank you for having me in here. We're down one side that's like full of plants and like delicious sunlight, but you've also, down the other room, got your other creative space, which is obviously you sit at a computer quite a lot for a lot of your work. But what does a creative space mean to you and why do you think?
03:25 - Carl (Guest)
This room is incredibly conducive to creativity. I like to have a lot of open space, not too much visual clutter. Everything in this room has to either have a use or be aesthetically pleasing. In this space I don't have a lot of plastic. Plastic tends to have a certain association for me. I much prefer earthy, natural. There's a lot of wood, there's a lot of plants, ceramics, that sort of thing. So this space generally and it's just an aesthetic thing as well I just over time I've I know what I like and I know what gives me inspiration. So if I'm in a room that doesn't have these things, I can definitely still be creative. I know enough about my creative process. I can sit in a cardboard box and be creative if I need to be.
04:11
But it's not. I'm here every day. I work from home, so I want to make this room as conducive to creativity as possible, and that means having everything ready to go. So there's a lot of instruments lying around. I'm not a professional musician, but it does help change my way of thinking. If I'm stuck on a project, I will move to another project temporarily just to loosen me up a little bit. So, yeah, I often have three projects on at any one time at least.
04:38
And I would probably just say like, yeah, if you're starting out new to being creative or anyone that's creative, I would promise you they've got thousands of ideas running around in their heads. It's like oh, I want to start a podcast, I want to do a range of t-shirts, I want to learn how to do this and do that, and it's so important to acknowledge those wants and those dreams. Most people don't acknowledge them at all and therefore they're not passionate about anything. So they don't acknowledge them at all and therefore they're not passionate about anything. So they don't know what they want to do with their spare time, and then they just go on instagram or they go out drinking with their friends. But if you've got a slight creative bone in you when you say I want to start a podcast, write it down, put it on a list, and then, when you're bored, you look at that list and you go, oh that's right, I'm interested in learning how to do that, let's find a course on it, let's buy a microphone, let's meet some interesting people, let's start a podcast, and so validating that desire to be creative is so important and such a valuable thing to do in your creative space. You should have a big list of things that you want to do and have it on the wall, and for me, I choose the top three things on my list. If you look at my list, I've got hundreds of things in that list, but you look at that list and you prioritize, you say which one is the most important to me right now for the next year, and I put I pick my top three and I put them on the top of that list and then I just break them down and then I go down that path. If one year it's going to be murals and I do a deep dive into finding mentors, finding online courses, buying the materials and trying to be a mural artist and just sucking at being a mural artist for a long time and you will suck, and that's part of it as well.
06:16
Um, and so finding, yeah, having your creative space with your to-do list and then also linked to that space, is time. So I work in astronomy. A lot of the work that I do is I work at Swinburne University in the Centre for Astrophysics and Supercomputing. Four days a week I do content for that department with their astronomers, creating content for them, and Einstein's special theory of relativity links space and time together, and so it's the same in the creative world that if you have a creative space but you don't have time, that creative space is null and void, it's wasted.
06:56
So you have to set time aside as well, not just a space, but a day a week. If you, you know, really want to honor you bit yourself being a creative person, set aside time. Set aside time to play, to explore, to make a mess, to watch some tutorials and learning from other people without distraction. Sit down in your beautiful creative space and say I am going to get better at something for a little while. So that's yeah. This room here it's so beautiful to sit and spend time in as well, yeah and that's yeah.
07:32 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. I mean, you've just mentioned, yeah, being able to reflect and be proud on so much that you've done. I guess this next question is probably I'm trying to stitch you up because I'm asking what are you proud of creating and how did it come about? But you probably could say all of the things, but is there one or maybe a handful that you're like, yeah, that's like top notch for me.
07:58 - Carl (Guest)
Absolutely two. Two recent pieces come to mind, and on your way into visiting me today you would have walked past it. There's a beautiful mural on the street downstairs and it's a beautiful mural of my dog, Zen, and Zen passed away two years ago, and it was around the time that we were all going through a lot of change with COVID, and for me, mural painting was one of the things that I picked up as a lockdown skill, and I was terrible at it for a long time, and that's the point of learning a new skill you have to be comfortable sucking at something.
08:37
Sitting in the uncomfortable yeah, absolutely, and that took me a long time to realize that being bad at something is the first step to being good at something. And so it took me a long time, and so that mural is a culmination of a lot of hard work and a lot of dedication, and it's so personal to me as well.
08:58
Zen was obviously a big part of my life, and so the mural if you see it on my Instagram it's of a Japanese dog with a Japanese starburst coming out behind it and there's cherry blossoms on the side and there's a time lapse on there of me painting it on the garage door. But it's designed in 3D like a 3D package software. So Pixar movies are all done in 3D, and that was the first skill that I got as an artist. I learnt to become a 3D animator, and so I designed it and rendered it in a 3D software package called Maya and Keyshot. So Keyshot's a rendering package, and then usually 3D renders just appear on screens. They're just digital and so they never make it into the real world in any way.
09:43
So for me, taking a 3D image and then painting it on my garage door was a wonderful way of combining my 3D skillset with my painting skillset. And it was a huge moment for me because that's my first public piece and it was so personal to me that it was so unique to me as an artist being able to use my 3D skillset, my 2D skill set, and connect really personally in terms of the subject matter and then also how Zen's depicted in the piece, because she's a Japanese breed of dog. A lot of Japanese influence came through in the design. So it's yeah, it's for me, that's one of the proudest pieces I've been able to do in terms of personal connection, as well as so unique to my skill set. Yeah, I absolutely love it. So artistically, that was a really proud moment for me. And then, more recently, there's another proud moment it was a proud son moment.
10:35 - Alexis (Host)
Oh?
10:41 - Carl (Guest)
So as, yeah, as a creative, I love the idea of designing and creating things to make the world slightly better, more beautiful. Reduce the amount of work that somebody has to do. Like everything in this house, it's either hung vertically, it's easy access, so I don't have to open doors and, you know, put pans and things away. So I love the idea of minimizing the amount of effort you have to achieve a goal.
11:07
And so my dad had a stroke about a year ago and so he has trouble walking around now. So he needs a walking stick and every morning he does physiotherapy and so he's on like this bicycle machine, this pedaling machine, like you sit on the couch and you pedal and you get blood flow to your feet, and so every morning he needs somebody to help him get into the bicycle, because he his right arm doesn't work as well as it used to, so he needs assistance a lot of the time. So he'd sit in the, he'd sit in his chair and wait for somebody to come and help him every morning, and it's either my mum or it's myself, and I’m in Tasmania, and so I sat on that problem for a long time. I looked, looked at it and went how can I get dad exercising without anybody's assistance? And the bicycle pedals are weighted and so they kind of flip upside down so he can't get his feet in.
11:51
And so I went for a run one day and I came up with a design and it started off. The first iteration was just a pile of books, and the pile of books locked the pedal vertically so he could slide in, and it didn't really work very well until like five iterations later I designed a little foam locking block with a low friction surface on the top so he puts his foot on top of the low surface friction like slidey thing and then slides it in and then just when he starts to pedal the block falls away by itself. So creating that for him made his life so much easier and it's one less thing for me to do and he can start exercising straight away. So designing a small thing like that just for one person I got like, even if it's just for one person, I was so incredibly proud.
12:39 - Alexis (Host)
So well said. On the flip side of things that you're proud of. What do you reckon has challenged your creativity over the years, and is there like a major lesson or lessons that you'd be willing to share?
12:55 - Carl (Guest)
Making a living as an artist was a huge challenge for me. So, yeah, I trained. I went to art school. I trained to be an amazing artist, but in art school, nobody ever teaches you to be a successful business person, and so making money from my art was a massive lesson that I had to learn on my own, and it was incredibly painful and heartbreaking, and I quit art a couple of times because I wasn't being validated financially from it, and so at some point, if you yeah, if you stalk me on in on Google, you'll probably find my website, and there's a lot of commercial work on there there's m&ms, there's pepsi, there's you know, all these illustrations and all these high-end things that you look at that and you go, oh, that's great, this guy's successful.
13:44
But I was doing those things and I wasn't charging properly for them, and so, for me, I was actually running at a loss because I didn't know how to charge properly, and so learning how to run a business was is something that every artist, if they want to be commercial, they need to learn how to do, and nobody yeah, there's, there's no easy way to do it except by sucking and by failing and running at a loss for so long. And then you go oh, wait a minute, I'm charging $90 an hour, but that's not enough, because I'm not like. Yeah, when I realized I went and got a business mentor, I found somebody and I said how do I make this work? And she said, okay, great, let's put all the things that you are good at on the table. Let's have a look at them. And there's wedding photography, there's 3D animations, there's logo design, there's music videos, there's all this stuff.
14:34
And then she goes okay, great, you're a very talented person. That's wonderful. How many of these things do you actually like doing? And you actually like doing and do you want to make money from? And then I said, oh, wonderful, well, let's take half of these things off the list, because I hate logos, I hate doing weddings and I hate all these other things, even though I'm good at them. I'm just like these don't give me joy and this isn't what I want to do professionally. I've got, I can make money from them, but I don't want to choose.
14:59 - Alexis (Host)
Especially when you can choose the ones that, yeah, resonate with you.
15:03 - Carl (Guest)
Yeah, so she only chose the ones that resonated, or I only chose the ones that resonated with me, and I said I only want to do these five things. And she said, great, Now let's just focus on those things. And then she helped me identify what I wanted to be. And then she said now we just need to target clients that need you to solve their problems using these skills, those five things yeah.
15:23
Yeah. And then I said, oh well, that's wonderful, now I don't have to worry about being a wedding photographer anymore. I'm good at it, but I don't want to be that person. She said awesome, let's take it off the list. Let's not make that as one of your offerings. If someone comes to you and says can you shoot my wedding? You say no, whereas previously I'd be a yes man, I'd be like I can do everything. Yes, let's do it.
15:44 - Alexis (Host)
And I don't know if you agree, but do you feel, like when you're a creative, that we're sort of told that narrative that we just have to say yes to everything? I mean, obviously it's different for you because you had lots of different revenue streams, but even as a singer or a musician, I always feel like it's always like you just say yes to every gig. It's like it might not cut the mustard, perhaps in and serving me, but it's just like that. You just want to be seen as the one that always says yes to the opportunities. You don't want to say no to the opportunities.
16:21 - Carl (Guest)
Absolutely. If, especially if you're not having, if you don't have that much money coming in, you kind of go I could do that. And you go, yeah, I could do that. And because you need the money. So back then I was like, can you shoot a wedding? I'm like, yeah, I can do that, I could do that. Yeah, let's do it. And you try it out. And I'm so glad I did try everything because now it allowed me to then, when I had the luxury of choosing which ones I wanted to do, I could say no to some things. But back in the day I had to say yes to everything, and so it's a luxury saying no to some things. And so, yeah, when I went and saw that business coach, I was at the point where I could start choosing my jobs and, yeah, just started saying no to some of them. And then she also taught me how to cost effectively. So I was charging, I don't know, let's say, $90 an hour at the time that I went to see her, but prior to that I was, I don't know, charging $50 an hour or something. She's like okay, well, let's look at that. How much time does it take you to do a project? And I'd tell her maybe eight hours, and she and I'd tell her maybe eight hours, and she's like, okay, that's in an ideal world that you get everything done right the first time.
17:29
Now let's assume that the client wants to make three rounds of changes. That's another two days of work, including meetings that you have to do with them, including emails that you correspond with. Let's assume need to sometimes buy new hardware and your keyboard, a new mouse, a chair, maybe. Let's assume you also need to pay for electricity and all these things. And so I was charging a $50 an hour for eight hours and that was it. And then she say no, you have to add 15% on top of that for Incidentals and to make your business run at a profit, because if you have to hire somebody else at $50 an hour, your business makes no profit. So you are paying a 3D modeller of $50 now. But then there's also the overheads of running a studio, electricity and whatnot. So adding 15% into that will cover it. If, if you need to buy new hardware, those profits cover that. Also, you need to start charging now for meeting times and emails and all those sorts of things. So she taught me how to cost beyond just my hourly rate which is so valuable as a business operator.
18:22
I didn't know how to save for superannuation, I didn't know how to do my taxes, any of that sort of stuff. So I'm an amazing artist, but I was a terrible business operator. So my first business I had to yeah, I had to call it quits, and I had an amazing showreel and an amazing website. And then I went I can't afford to be this person anymore because I need to pay my bills. So I snapped my paintbrushes and I hated being an artist. And then I went and got a nice suit and I got a job as a personal assistant in a corporate world somewhere and I wasn't an artist for a long time because I couldn't financially make it work, and so that was a huge yeah. I was a really good artist.
19:01
And then I had to tuck my tail in between my legs and go look, I can't, I can't make a live, I can't make it as a living, I don't like, I can't make it like this. I don't know what to do. And I just went off and got a normal job and then in my spare time eventually I came back to like I couldn't kill the artist inside me. I'm like it's still there, even if it's hurt, and it it feels like it's a failure because it can't make money. He's still in there.
19:25
And so eventually I came back to painting and drawing, but not because I needed the money, but because the artist inside me still needed to say something and still needed to be an artist. So I started drawing and painting and doing things, and then eventually the corporate job treated me so badly that I'm like no, I think I need to come back as an artist. And then I, by then I knew I'd learned some things about business and I learned how to, yeah, properly charge. And then I came back as an artist and then I got a full-time job at the university.
19:54 - Alexis (Host)
Which is where you are now right?
19:56 - Carl (Guest)
Which is where I am now. Yeah, so that took the problem of being an artist for money out. Like it made it easier, because if you're running your own business it's so much extra work, whereas if you just work for somebody else, they handle all the clients, they handle the pay, the tax, the super, the computer, the hardware, the office all that sort of stuff gets handled for you, and then you just show up and be an artist.
20:18
And so being a designer for another studio, or you know somewhere else that they've got a problem that they need solving with your skillset. Then you just show up every day nine to five, be a designer for the man man being management. It's like you just, yeah, just show up and do it and then you come home and you can do whatever you want to do in that spare time. And in my spare time I would always be leveling up, always learning new things. I'm addicted to learning. I can't stop. I love it so much now yeah.
20:45 - Alexis (Host)
Now, yeah, this is probably going to be a hard question to ask again, because you have so many realms. But is there an object, and maybe it's like a sentimental thing that you can't live without while you're creating?
21:01 - Carl (Guests)
Yeah, absolutely, that's um, that's multiple computer screens.
21:07 - Alexis (Host)
I thought it might be something like really like obvious, like that.
21:13 - Carl (Guest)
Yeah, I can work on one screen, but if you have a look at my desk, I have four screens on there. I've got two in front of me, I've got one under my desk.
21:19 - Alexis (Host)
You have this really cool like glass desk and like a screen underneath, which is such a vibe. I've never seen that before. I want one.
21:28 - Carl (Guest)
I had all these old screens lying around, so I just decided to plug them all in, and I love having I just have loving having access to things. So if it's emails and I'm someone's written in me an email, say, for instance, it's a logo design or something, they'll have eight different points in there that I need to make reference to. So when I'm designing the logo, I make sure to have the email open. I make sure to have all my reference images open, and so that's why I needed another screen, like either down beneath me or to the side, and then I also have a projector plugged in which covers that big wall on the right-hand side there which is currently turned off. But that means I have as much real estate as I can.
22:07
And you'll notice, actually now in the Apple Vision Pros, everyone's wearing these new VR headsets over in America, and that's a sense. It's essentially a VR headset that you can walk around. It's a mobile headset, but what that allows you to do is to pin videos in virtual space around the place, so you can have as many screens as you want around the place, which is wildly productive I think. You'll be able to have recipes open in the kitchen, and then Gordon Ramsay teaching you how to cook dinner versus. And then you walk over the piano and then you'll have all the notes coming towards you, overlaid over over the videos of yeah, of you seeing the piano in real time.
22:35 - Alexis (Host)
It’s like the reality version of, like guitar hero.
22:50 - Carl (Guest)
That's exactly right, yeah yeah. So the next couple of years, you'll be seeing these virtual screens becoming more and more accessible, and I think that's going to be wildly useful, because I love having as many screens as possible, um, open to me just for reference, making, yeah, making, inspiring me, as many things I can have. When I'm in that zone of creativity, I want to see as many shapes that I'm trying to reference, as many fonts as possible, as many colors, yeah. So multiple screens for me is lovely, and if I can't, if I only have one little laptop, I'll try to have a notebook beside me.
23:13 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of advice to I don't know someone who wants to do what you do, or just another creative, what would it be?
23:34 - Carl (Guest)
It's going to come back to something I said before that you have to being bad is the first step to being good at something. So before you can be good at something, you have to be willing to be bad for a long time. And I love being bad at something now because it means I'm on the journey to growing and it means that it's worth.
23:58
It's worth chasing after something that you're not good at, because if you were good at something, if everybody was good at the skill that you're trying to achieve, it wouldn't be special, it wouldn't be worth being, it wouldn't be worth achieving, because something that's easy is accessible to everybody, whereas something that's hard to do means a limited amount of people can do it, and it makes you more who you are, makes you more unique. You've so many people give up when they suck, and it's such a shame, because that's half the fun. The half the fun is making a mess and trying something new and pushing through that frustration, and it teaches you so many things in life that are worth learning. Learning how to deal with hardship, learning how to deal with struggling at something that you're not good at, getting out of a situation that's uncomfortable through hard work and dedication, because if you're not making mistakes, you're not growing, and so sucking and making mistakes means you're growing, which means you're becoming a more talented person.
24:56 - Alexis (Host)
So true, so true. Got an extra question, what resource would you recommend or resources would you recommend if someone wanted to develop their creative process?
25:12 - Carl (Guest)
I would say put aside a small budget every month to buying things like subscription services or new artistic tools that if you might buy, like look at a paint. If you're a painter, it's like oh, there's a course online for you to. I'm always curious about doing photorealistic portraits, but you know it's a $50 course and it's $50. You know I'm not going to spend that money, but that budget is an investment in yourself. And so, putting money aside every month to pay for something like ChatGPT or any subscription service, even if it's something. I love, there's a series online called Masterclass.
25:55 - Alexis (Host)
I've seen the ads for those. They sound fascinating.
25:58 - Carl (Guest)
It's wonderful it's like Netflix you, most people pay for Netflix and they're happy to pay for Netflix and Masterclass is like a streaming service for creatives, for entrepreneurs, for sports people, any. If you want to learn a new skill and if you want to have a mentor or access to videos of successful people. That's what Masterclass is.
26:19 - Alexis (Host)
One last extra question. If you could hear anyone come on the podcast and answer these questions, who would you want to hear?
26:29 - Carl (Guest)
There's a gentleman named Woody Sampson and he's a local musician in Melbourne, so you might be able to track him down. He's a wonderfully talented musician. He plays almost everything and he used to have a corporate job. He used to work for I won't say who, just in case it comes back, I'll let Woody tell his story. But he used to work corporate and it just didn't resonate with him and so he quit, quit, and now he's a full-time musician and he's such a wonderful person, so much energy. He plays, like I said, he plays trumpet like a weapon. He's a plays piano, he plays guitar, he sings, he DJs. He's just wonderfully creative and he's, yeah, just one of the the happiest people you'll ever meet.
27:07
People like that just light me up. So, regardless of people, if they don't like their art or their music, they're just wonderful people that just have followed their dreams and not listened to what anybody else has ever said and they're happy just being themselves, and so those are the types of people that, yeah, I want to hear more of their stories and more of who they are.
27:26 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my goodness, Carl, thank you so much for this chat. This has just been such a so filled my cup. I love it.
Thanks for tuning in for another episode of Through the Creative Door. If you enjoy our episodes and find value in them, consider supporting us by making a donation. Just visit buymeacoffee.com/throughthecreativedoor or via the link in our Instagram bio, where you can choose an amount and even write us a little message. Every little bit helps and we truly appreciate all of your support. But if you can't donate, no worries, you can still help us out by sharing our podcast with your friends and family and leaving a review on your favorite platform. Thanks so much for being part of our community. We'll catch you on the next episode. Bye.
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Join Alexis as she sits down with the incredibly talented singer and creative Uma in this inspiring episode of Through the Creative Door. Uma shares her journey as a musician and performer, from her opera training to her cabaret performances. She opens up about the challenges she's faced, including navigating lifelong food allergies and a recent Crohn's disease diagnosis, and how these experiences have influenced her creative process. Uma also talks about her proudest projects, including her cabaret show “Intolerant” and her powerful songs “Houses On Fire” and “I Will Stand.” Tune in for an honest and heartfelt conversation about creativity, resilience, and the importance of self-compassion in the artistic journey
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Uma on instagram; @umamusicoffical
This episode was recorded on 24 January 2024 on the lands of the Woiworung Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Creative references from Uma:
House On Fire - Uma Dobia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_KqCHMnqwk
Haus Of Shmizzay - https://www.instagram.com/hausofshmizzay/?hl=en
Soula Parassidis - https://www.instagram.com/soula_parassidis/?hl=en
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—---------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
Hello Uma, how are you?
00:48 - Uma (Guest)
I'm good. How are you?
00:52 - Alexis (Host)
Good. I am so chuffed to be chatting with you. You are such a talented bear and I met you through, actually, my manager at the time and her brother, who's a wonderful audio engineer and musician himself. But yes, I think you're just a vibe. You're such a vibe and it's so exciting to see on the outside, looking in, your journey's been changing quite a lot as a creative. You're doing so many amazing things. You are doing lots of opera stuff, which is amazing, and I might have done a little stalky stalk on um YouTube. Oh, so stunning. Oh, my goodness, so jealous. I did do a stint of opera, learning opera when I was in high school, just as a like a dipping your toe in and I'll tell you, there's so much respect there that is hard yakka, hard yakka.
01:43 - Uma (Guest)
It's not easy it's true, it's true, it's never too late.
01:47 - Alexis (Host)
I'm not sure that's my calling I think it's yours and I'm happy for you to talk about that. But um, I'm also super chuffed for you that you have written this phenomenal show Intolerant? Which I'll let you talk to everyone about it. But, um, yeah, just what's a bit about you, and I'm just, yeah, just even chuffed that you're here. Oh, I'm through the creative door, with you.
02:16 - Uma (Guest)
I'm really excited to to be sharing this space with you too. I adore you and I admire you so much as an artist. You've done such gorgeous things
02:20 - Alexis (Host)
Aw thanks my love.
02:22 - Uma (Guest)
Very excited to be here, yay.
02:27 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I feel very chuffed that we are outside, very surprising that Melbourne's actually got sorry, that's really mean of me to say, but for those who know, Melbourne is usually four seasons in one day. That's right, it very much is. And we are sitting outside on your beautiful deck, your beautiful back garden, with the sun shining down on us, the birds chirping. It's just delightful, it's pretty nice.
02:53 - Uma (Guest)
This is summer. This is our one day of summer that we get.
02:56 - Alexis (Host)
Just one. That's one. I timed it very well, you did. I'm curious. You have been on this journey as a creative, as a musician, a singer, for a long time, but I wonder what for you, is a creative space. Like, what does it mean to you and why do you think that is?
03:16 - Uma (Guest)
I think for me, the creative space has been in my head and at the piano a lot of the time. Not all the time. Sometimes it's at a cafe,
03:25 - Alexis (Host)
Oh I love this yeah, do you have a particular cafe?
03:30 - Uma (Guest)
Well, because I've just moved up here to the beautiful Dandenongs and there is one not far down the road that I like to go and set myself up at. But I used to have, you know, my different places that I will go, depending on where I was living you know I lived in closer to the city of Melbourne for six years or so and I had a couple that I would frequent often to do some writing.
03:50 - Alexis (Host)
Love this, first name basis. What’s your coffee order?=
03:57 - Uma (Guest)
It's a bit wanky. It's a large, weak soy latte, because I discovered that I liked the less strong flavour but I didn't want a small one, yeah okay, you know so, and that way if I'm really desperate I can have two, but if I've had a double shot, kind of two, I'll be up all night, yeah, anyway, anyway, that's too much information for anyone, but I think, like for me, I remember when I first started writing, writing my own music, which I had done, you know, bits and pieces of as a kid I dipped in and out of all sorts of different creative things, because that's what I love to do but, when I I had one song in particular come to me in a flash of inspiration literally after being on the train, and it came through my head on the train on the way to uni and I was like what am I gonna do? How do I get this out? So I was singing to myself as I was walking from the train to uni and trying to get it in a voice message to myself.
04:50 - Alexis (Host)
How good are voice messages!
04:55 - Uma (Guest)
So good, so good. But I suppose that's the thing is that usually, you know, my creative space is in my head. It's from a flash of inspiration, from a flash of a moment, and usually, very inconveniently, it's when I'm doing something else, when I'm at work, when I'm supposed to be doing other things, and I have to like quickly write something down.
05:09 - Alexis (Host)
I can empathize with that. Mine seem to always come when I'm driving, when I do long stint drives, which is why everyone wonders why I like driving so much. I think they think I'm a bit nuts, but it's because it's like the time
05:21 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, that's right. Yeah that's right. It's when your mind is focused on something. Yeah, yeah, exactly and you just allow the inspiration to come instead of trying to make it happen, although everything sounds like that too.
05:29
Yeah, you're like I have to finish this, yeah, but, um, but I guess it's so, I mean, ultimately the creative space becomes then taking the idea away and sitting down, you know, maybe sitting down at the piano, um, you know, spending some time working through different ideas. I'm trying more and more these days because I found it really works for me to just move with an idea, like it's the actual act of if I'm feeling inspired to dance or just to walk, you know, really helps me not get stuck in panic of, oh, this idea is crap or you know all that kind of stuff that comes up a lot yeah, so yes, cafes, my own head when you're doing something else and then at the piano when I get like I don't play.
06:15
You know, you have such gorgeous you know gorgeous tradition of being able to play for yourself and do all that kind of amazing stuff. I never cultivated that. That was the one thing I was like. I don't want to practice, I just want to be good, so of course that's right and that never happened, but I play enough to write chords.
06:37
You know around my songs and stuff like that. So when I get in that zone I can be there for hours because I love it. Um, and then that builds upon the other ideas that have already formed. But there isn't one set way I've found for me. There was one song, one of my favourite songs that I wrote way back in the day, came to me. I like woke up with it in my head, and that was another one where I was like where is the voice message? But yeah, it's a little bit random,
07:09 - Alexis (Host)
Or what do they say? You should always put like a pad and paper next to your bed.
07:11 - Uma (Guest)
Oh yeah, I've done that too. Yeah, yeah, I did that with my show. I did it before then, but I did it with my show. In the middle of the night I would wake up and like where's the script? Yes. Then in the morning you're like what the what does that say?
07:21 - Alexis (Host)
Wait. I really need some time to decipher what it was I was thinking at 2am.
07:24 - Uma (Guest)
That's right, and why is it on an angle and why is this letter really big and this letter really? Anyway, very funny, because I don't turn the light on, I just do it in the dark. I don't want to wake myself up. Yeah, true, I want to be able to go back to sleep.
07:46 - Alexis (Host)
True, true. You have done so many things, so I think this is going to be maybe a hard thing to ask, but then maybe it won't be. What are you the most proud of creating, whether it be on your own or collaborating with others? Um, and if so, if there is one or a few things how did it come about?
08:00 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, I thought about this one a little bit. I there are. There are three things I'm most proud of, and the first is my show which is Intolerant, which I debuted at Melbourne Fringe Festival last year in October and it's coming very excited, taking it to Adelaide Fringe Festival from the 2nd to the 10th of March and then Melbourne Comedy Festival from the 27th of March to the 2nd of April. I've got to get that right.
08:27 - Uma (Guest)
And then really excited to start taking it overseas this year as well. We're planning San Diego, maybe San Francisco trying to work that out and hopefully London as well later in the year which is really exciting, but this is the piece that I'm most proud of, for a few reasons.
08:45
First of all, it allows me to do all the things that I've done, so like the writing and um, which is songwriting, but also some theatre writing. I have done some of that stuff before and I really enjoy it. It allows me to do the kind of performing that I like, which is I've discovered, you know, really being able to have moments with the audience where it's not just you're the audience and I'm the performer, and that's what you know. My journey has been a little bit all over the place, but that's what I came to discover I didn't like about a lot of the very traditional ways of performing, particularly in the opera world, which is kind of where my career has kind of gone more.
09:19 - Alexis (Host)
Was that the thing that you liked about sitting more in the pop?
09:26 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, I liked the connection with the audience, for sure. And that informal kind of space where you can have connection, and that banter. But what I like about Cabaret, which feels to me like it brings all those worlds together, is that you're also able to create more play and more story and more comedy that adds to a greater story. You know, if you're doing a gig, that's great I love doing a gig but it is not. It doesn't have a shape in a story and a narrative. You can create it through the songs. Yeah, but that's not why people go and see a gig.
10:01
You go and see a gig because you want to lose yourself in the music and enjoy what the artist is putting up there. You know, um, and I like that. Yeah, cabaret allows me to kind of straddle both of those two worlds, but with that informality that pop gives you where you're having a conversation with the audience. So um Intolerant really explores my experiences with lifelong food allergies and Crohn's disease, which I was only diagnosed with not even two years ago. It was in May of 2022.
10:34
So that was a very difficult time, very physically difficult time. But I remember thinking partway through navigating that year because it became a horrific year when, yes, I got diagnosed, finally, after being, you know, sick for two and a half years um, with Crohn's, but without knowing it was Crohn's. Then, after I got diagnosed and we started looking at ways to treat it, I got COVID and then it became long COVID and it was a whole like that year was awful and I remember really feeling like, okay, when I'm well enough, I have to create something from this, like I can't just this is not just time that I'm laying in bed. This has got to come out of me
It's got to be something and I, um, I think that that drive I don't know exactly what that drive is in me when I've I've had that very strong drive, you know, like I've got to do something about this, or I've got to like I can't let this pain go unacknowledged, like kind of thing. All the three things that I am most proud of. So I'll talk about the other two very briefly you know all.
11:47
All of the projects that I'm really proud of have come from that place. So it feels very connected to who I am and very part of my values and how I've always kind of gone through the world.
11:57 - Alexis (Host)
I can resonate with this so much.
11:58 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, right, yeah. That's why I like this so much. But it's just, it's so. Yeah, it's connected to my core and, you know, sometimes we forget about that and we go away from it. We have to live in this world. That, you know, pulls us in so many different directions. You lose sight of that, but when you are able to tap into that, it sounds really wanky but you know that essence of who you are you know?
12:19
At your core and you can create something from that. That's so powerful. And I think for me this show, as I said, you know it allowed me to do all the things I love. It's original music, but it's also opera, it's comedy, it's play, but it's also got real moments of intensity and and um pathos. You know, it showed me that I can do that on my own. You know, would I recommend self-producing, not having a director, not having a marketing team?
No, I wouldn't. Uh, am I doing it again for the next rounds? Yes, I am. Would I recommend that? No, but that's how we are when we start, you know, when we're at the beginnings of these things. And it is very different these days in the industry.
13:02
You don't just approach an agent and they appear you know, it doesn't work like that, no, so, uh, or a manager, you know. So, until it happens, you end up doing a lot of this stuff on your own, and it showed me how capable I am to do all of that stuff and to do all this other crap that I have no experience in, and it felt really, as I said, you know, aligned to who I am as a show and powerful, like the audience response was. I was really touched by the people, enjoyed it and felt connected to it, but also that I could do it like that was great. But then, in that same vein, you know, the other two pieces that I did under my stage name.
13:37
The two songs that I'm most proud of are definitely Houses On Fire, which I released in 2020, which is a climate action song. Oh my god, it's amazing. Still adore that song and where it came from, you know. But then the other song that was on, like my very first kind of release, um which was called Girl On Caffeine funny, we talked about coffee um, um, that song is called I will stand, which again is about it's more from a social justice perspective and about, you know, standing up against hate, which feels very applicable now, uh, more than ever more than when I wrote it even.
14:11
But those pieces that they just they hit something really deep in me. So it's not just creating the art, even though that's really fun and I love doing that and art for art's sake and fun for fun's sake and all of that. But when you, yeah, connect in, it's something else.
14:29 - Alexis (Host)
But we're also multi-faceted we're allowed to just do those fun loving songs that are a bit more carefree and then for us to really tap into, like that's right, there's no rules, we're allowed to whatever, yeah, I'm so chuffed that you mentioned um those three projects because they're yeah, they're pretty special, so special. But then on, let's flip it. Yep, what do you think has challenged um your creativity and do you think there was like a major lesson out of that?
15:02 - Uma (Guest)
I think the biggest one for me is um coming up against internal shame like coming up against internal shame like very often. That's really really powerful for me and and bites me in the bum all the time, you know, even when I need to go and practice something and go into the practice room to get started. You know that's my biggest challenge to getting into any creative space and I think that was really difficult in writing Intolerant.
15:30
It made it so hard because so many of the experiences, the stuff that I experienced as a kid with my allergies and not being taken seriously, and then not being taken seriously, you know, with doctors for two and a half years before I was diagnosed with Crohn's, all this kind of stuff and the little things that happen along the way, you know, with things that people don't even think of. You know, like dating when you've got food allergies, is interesting. You know it's intense and you've got to find ways to navigate those things. And because so many of those experiences were wrapped up in so much pain and shame and yucky you know stuff, um, it was really hard to write the show, like I was getting blocked, I couldn't. I kept being like I have to finish this, I have to do it now because I've got to do this, xyz, and it just kept like.
16:24
I just kept feeling blocked and it took a long time to work through that and I, you know, ended up having to talk a lot of it out, you know, with with my mum, with other people that I, you know, knew would be able to listen to it, rather than trying to sit and write it, because normally that's how I would do it and then come back and listen to what I'd said to be able to write it out. So it's those those old, very, very old emotions that really bite me, the bum, the most
17:00 - Alexis (Host)
Was there some tools that were you able to sort of? I mean, you just mentioned obviously leaning on your community to help you through that. Were there some other tools that were helpful during that time to try and regulate?
17:12 - Uma (Guest)
I think that is a little bit more when I started leaning into okay, I'm experiencing this really strong thing. I need to move my body somehow. I need to get it out. Okay, I dip in and out of that. Some days I'm able to do that and some days I just kind of go and go much more internal but when I do it it's really really powerful and useful.
17:35
Um, but also I think it was just kind of going learning to let go of that uh sensation like, okay, you're so wound up now, just take a step back, go do something else. Yeah, you're on a deadline, but forget about the deadline. You can forget about it for another half an hour.
17:54 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah an hour is not in the big scheme of things the deadline's there, but an hour, yeah, it's not gonna break the bank.
18:03 - Uma ( Guest)
Right and I've learned over and over, and, over and over again over my years of everything, not just creating but doing it of life, of adulting, that's right like if you give yourself that time to recover is not exactly the right word, but if you give yourself that time to process stuff, you end up actually being more productive.
18:23
And not that productivity should be the measure of who, we are. But when you are trying to create something on a deadline, yeah you know saying actually I'm going to give myself the afternoon off, or actually I'm going to give myself the morning off or I'm going to do, rather than being really hard on yourself saying it's not done, just go and finish it right so much more helpful.
18:45 - Alexis (Host)
I don't. I don't know about you, but I always think I, whenever I'm in those spaces, I feel like I need to take a step back and be like, okay if I wasn't talking to myself and I was talking to a fellow human being, would I be saying those things? Probably not. I'd probably be like you need to have balance, you need to eat, sleep, move, see your friends, whatever. You can't work all the time, you can't, yeah and yet I don't know about you, but that, on reflection, it's like oh no, I expect, yeah, the utmost output
19:12 - Uma (Guest)
Well, and I think, like well I know, for opera singers and classical musicians in general, but particularly opera singers we're told you have to practice every day, you cannot miss it. You know like, and there's so much, as an opera singer, that you have to build in your toolkit you know, you have to be across the languages, as well as across the technique, which takes a lot of dedication. You have to be across the breathing. You have to be across the style.
19:40 - Alexis (Host)
It’s so hard.
19:42 - Uma (Guest)
It's really hard, right and, and it's impossible to well, unless you, unless that is all you want to devote your time to, it's impossible to have a life and and and maintain that. You know you have to live your life around your art, which some people want to do, and I suppose that's why part of the other reason why I've leaned more on cabaret is that my body is not made for that life.
20:09
You know, cabaret allows me to be able to do that kind of stuff, that really precise work in the context of doing other fun stuff as well, and I think in terms of, you know, pop stuff we also get it from. You must hustle. You want people to listen to your music. You've got to be on top of this. You've got to be on top of that, you've got to be like all this kind of stuff, and I mean okay it's, it's, it's.
20:36 - Alexis (Host)
Look, I mean, nothing we do comes without hard work. No, but I think that notion that you need to be hustling every minute of every day you're almost doing people a disservice because, like, everyone's going to burn out and people are the amount of I'm sure there's people in your community to make you. Yeah, we hear quite often, or not, that people burn out and if not, they have a hiatus, they totally leave the industry. That's right.
21:04 - Uma (Guest)
Yeah, that's right. And also, I mean, I suppose it depends on what angle you're coming from, but the more you hassle people, the less they're going to actually want to engage with you too. So you've got to choose. You've got a big project that you're doing. Yeah, you're hustling around that, but you know, you've got to give yourself the grace too, I think.
21:24 - Alexis (Host)
We need to love ourselves and be kind to ourselves.
21:27 - Uma (Guest)
Yes, we've got to work on those things.
21:37 - Alexis (Host)
When you're creating, do you have an object or a thing and it could be something really like practical or it could be like sentimental but do you have a thing, an object that you can't live without when you're creating? And if so, what is it and why?
21:54 - Uma (Guest)
I think for me it's. It's not a specific notebook. I mean, it would be a specific notebook that I've got those notes in, but it's like it's not that there has to be has to be this special one. I just have to have a notebook and usually I've got like the pen of the day, you know, the pen that has been my, my best friend for the last you know few weeks or whatever yeah until it's the next pen. Yeah, you know that kind of thing.
So I want my favorite pen of the moment and I want my notebook. They're my two like things.
22:25 - Alexis (Host)
I love this, yeah if you had one piece of advice, like a nugget of goodness to give another creative, what advice would that be? What would that little nugget be?
22:38 - Uma (Guest)
I think, taking the pressure off yourself that you have to create in this particular way and you have to do it exactly like this and it has to be done like giving yourself that space to live there wasn't, and knowing and trusting that you're going to come back to your creativity because you are, like it's an innate part of who you are. Just because you put it down for a day or a week, you know, or you're on holiday for a month, it it's still part of who you are, it's still going to be there and that space might actually help you create something even more special, even more connected. I think that was something that was really.
23:18
I listened to an interview with Trevor Noah and, okay, you know, stand-up is not my mode of creativity, although you never know, but never say never, never say never. But, um, he said something about that, how he was like pushing really hard, doing gigs and all this kind of stuff, and a mentor said to him how are you going to get new material? Like, if all you're doing is gigging and writing stuff and preparing for the gig and doing the gig, you're not creating any new material for yourself because you're not living, and I think that doesn't just apply to stand up, it applies to music and it even applies to operate. Yes, we have a lot of practice that has to be done, but if you're not also then gaining, you know, experience in other parts of life or giving yourself the space to develop more, you're not actually going to achieve like that.
24:08
Every one of my biggest achievements or biggest steps forward in my development as an artist have been when I have had a little break that might only be three days, you know, or a day or whatever, but giving myself that space to then come back and it's like, oh, oh, oh, it's all happening. You know, you're just giving yourself, yeah, you're taking, taking a bit of the pressure off.
24:30 - Alexis (Host)
If someone's curious to sort of do what you do, or just even not to even do what you do, but just curious how you got to what you're doing. Would you have any references or resources that you'd recommend, like are there courses or books or I don't know, influences?
25:01 - Uma (Guest)
From an operatic perspective. There's some great like masterclasses on YouTube with, like really famous opera singers, so that will kind of give you a flavour of that world if you want to go looking in that direction. But there are also some really funny influencers on Instagram that do really silly content around opera singers. It's niche. It's niche because it's for opera singers, by opera singers. But there's some great stuff out there, like Haus is in H-A-U-S of Schmizzay is very good. And then Sula Parasitas she's an amazing Greek. I'm pretty sure she's Greek.
25:35
I think she's Greek, she's a very good opera singer and she does some great like content as well.
25:43 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. How great is TikTok?
25:45 - Uma (Guest)
Oh, so good.
25:50 - Alexis (Host)
We’ve come up to the last question. If you could hear anyone else come on this podcast and answer these questions who would it be and why?
25:56 - Uma (Guest)
Ali McGregor and Kate Miller-Heinke? Very selfishly, I'd love to hear them.
26:01 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, all I can do is try to get them.
26:06 - Uma (Guest)
That's right. I'd love to hear them. And I think you know there are some. There are some amazing artists that we're yet to actually see flourish. One of my dear, dear friends who's in the more comedy space, Hani Elrafi like, has had to really do his thing while having another full-time career at the same time. And I have been you, you know lucky in that respect, in that because I was studying a lot of the time you know, I had to focus on this stuff.
26:42
That was, that was what I was doing, that's what I was studying, and then I was unwell so I couldn't be working all the time because my body couldn't handle it. And you know, lucky to have family support and all those kinds of things. But there are a lot of artists who don't have that and I'd love to hear from some of them to how they've made it work, how they've managed that balance.
27:06 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, I love this. Well, oh, my goodness, Uma that was just delight. Thank you so much for coming or really letting me come through your creative job. No, well, good luck with all the future endeavours and, yeah, I can't wait to check out your show Intolerant, how exciting.
27:23 - Uma (Guest)
It’s going to be really fun.
27:27 - Alexis (Host)
I love it.
-
In this episode, Alexis welcomes the very talented Anna Hartley, the creative force behind Anna Hartley Photography. From a budding fashion photographer in her university years to a renowned newborn photography specialist, Anna shares heartfelt stories of capturing the fleeting moments of newborns which was a natural path taken through her experiences as a new mother.
Listen as she describes the challenges and rewards of her creative process and business, especially during the turbulent times of the COVID-19 pandemic. Whether you’re an aspiring photographer or just love a good creative story, this episode is packed with insights on staying true to your passion, adapting to life’s changes, and finding joy in the art of photography.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Anna on instagram; @annahartleyphotography
This episode was recorded on 21 January 2024 on the lands of the Kurnai Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—---------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. Hi Anna.
00:52 - Anna (Guest)
Hi Alexis, hello hello.
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
How you doing? I am so chuffed.
00:56 - Anna Guest)
I’m good, how you doing, you doing good?
01:00 - Alexis (Host)
I'm good, I'm good. I am just so chuffed that you are coming through the creative door with me.
01:06 - Anna (Guest)
I know, I love coming through the door.
01:12 - Alexis (Host)
Yes. So for those who are listening, we have just cracked a West Coast Cooler Original yeah, which I've forgotten what these tasted like.
01:23 - Anna (Guest)
I did forget what they tasted like, but I knew when we seen them in Foodworks today we needed them. We needed them in our life and it just takes us back.
01:33 - Alexis (Host)
Full of cool kids. Full of cool kids. I think we should start with just how much of a talented bear that you are. I well thank you. You're very kind of you to say um for those listening, you have this beautiful business called Anna Hartley Photography. And you have done lots of different things in that space. Babies, little wee babies.
02:10 - Anna (Guest)
Lots of little newborns
02:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, but you've done your little fair share of you know doing wedding photos.
02:17 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, I started in weddings. My first five years of my business was solely doing weddings. Oh really, yeah, yeah. When I first started fresh out of uni, I booked a ton of weddings, and so for the first five years I only did weddings. That's all I did. And then I got pregnant with our first little baby, and when she was born I still had, I had racked up a number of weddings that I had to get through because I didn't realize the change and the shift that being a mom would would bring to my business. So I was like, yeah, cool, I'll have a baby and then I'll just keep working the way that I am.
03:02
That'll work, that'll work and it did, it did. But I think I realized about probably like five or six months in I loved weddings and I and I was still always like my, I think starting my business I weddings wasn't the first thing that I wanted to do when I was at uni I majored in fashion photography and that's what I wanted to do
03:29 - Alexis (Host)
Really? That probably makes sense because you do love to play in that space.
03:33 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, but then I never wanted to and I never wanted to like move to move to Melbourne or move to Sydney and do that. And so I think when I finished, or like approaching finishing uni, I was like I don't know what I'm going to do now, because my major was fashion and then I just kind of went into weddings and weddings went really well and and it boomed and it was big.
03:57
And then when I had Harlow I I just I don't know, all of a sudden I was like babies grow so fast. They do because you have this newborn and then in six weeks they're an entirely different baby and I think it just made me want to capture every single thing that she did.
04:15
And then, from then, I just my focus changed and I just was like I think I just want to work with babies, and so that was the shift to newborn photography, was through Harlow and how quickly she changed and I just, yeah, it just fully changed the focus of my business.
04:36
And so I spent a lot of time and money in learning and doing different courses and workshops of you know, how to wrap babies and how to safely pose babies and how to do all these things. And I and I spent probably a good eight months on learning although I had a baby of my own at home but how to safely pose a baby in a photo shoot and how to tell if they're too hot or too cold or too, you know, and I and I just spent a really just just a lot of time on learning how I can safely, you know, pose babies and work with babies. And yeah, and that was the shift, and then I became a newborn photographer and then, yeah, now I that's solely mainly what I do 90 percent of my work is still newborns.
05:31 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening. You'd better check her out, because we're pretty good pretty cool.
05:37 - Anna (Guest)
Oh, they're just they're born so perfect and they're just yeah, I just love them and I love the way that you can just, you can just pose them and you can just.
05:47 - Alexis (Host)
They're like a little little clay
05:52 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, they're like a little piece of plasticine. You just kind of mold them into what you want them to do and they just they do it. Yeah, they're beautiful
05:56 - Alexis (Host)
So that obviously you know you get to change um the space in which you work in but, I'm curious, like what does a creative space mean to you and why, like I know, you have a studio, yeah, but you haven't always had a studio?
06:20 - Anna (Guest)
I think for me, that question is and it's going to be different for everyone but for me, a creative space isn't always I'm in my studio and now I'm creative, or I'm in my office and I'm editing and now I'm creative because I'm in those designated spaces where I, that's where I work. For me, you know, I find that my creative space is like who I'm with and where I'm at at the time and I think, being a photographer, that could change with the family that you have or the location that you're at or you know, and I'm big on the sun and I tell all my clients like when they book with me, I'll book a session based on, you know, we always have like a little bit of consultation on the phone before a session.
07:12
You know, do you like the beach? Do you like the bush? Are you more of a rustic country person? You, you know, and based on what they choose and what um location they think will fit best for their family, I will then source that location but then I'll work out where the sun's going to be. So my creative space I think it's where the sun is, because I know where I want the sun to be in those places. So I don't think I have like a designated creative space of my studio or my home office. I think my space is where I am at with my clients, yeah, and where that's going to, and it's different for everyone. You know, like, if you choose the beach, it's going to be at this time, because I know that that's where I love to photograph someone at the beach if it's used to I know that bush is going to be an hour earlier than the beach, because that's when the light comes through the trees and yeah.
08:09
So I think my creative space changes every single time that I work with somebody, but I always come back to my office and my creative space then, when I'm editing, needs to be I need to have my music and I need to have something that I'm listening to, that is, I can't edit in silence, I need, I always need music and I need. I need something to listen to.
08:35 - Alexis (Host)
Have you got a particular genre of music?
08:38 - Anna (Guest)
Oh, I've got my playlist. Yeah, yeah. I've got my editing playlist, but I think um as far as a creative space. It's not always my studio. It's not always my office.
08:49 - Alexis (Host)
It's a bit more fluid than that.
08:50 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah it is. It's definitely more fluid than that. It's where I am with those people and what they want, it's always the sun. I just, yeah, we did a photo shoot this afternoon. We did. We did yes we did, yeah, and we got there at the right time, when I wanted the sun to be there, and I moved you pretty quickly to where I wanted you to be with the sun, yeah, so I feel like my creative space is when I have somebody in that space, which is outdoor, where the sun is, and I'll move you to where I want you to be.
09:26 - Alexis (Host)
Do you know what's so interesting that you say that, because I've worked with you a fair few times, yeah, and you always do that. Yeah, it's not until you actually say it that I'm like oh, yeah, you do do that.
09:38 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, my creative space is with the sun. Yeah, yeah yeah, because if somebody says, you know I'll do a photo shoot at like yeah, can we do like 12 o'clock in the day, I'm like no no because the sun isn't where I want it and so I think when I get the sun where I want it and I'm in the space where I want, that's when I can be creative, is when I have the people that I'm photographing in the location that they have chosen or that I've suggested, and I always know where I can get the sun and the clouds where I want them at that time and I think that's where magic happens is when you just get all the lighting right.
10:15 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah. It almost leads me into my next question. What are you the most proud of creating, and how did that come about? Do you think?
10:32 - Anna (Guest)
Like the thing I'm most proud of creating or things that I'm most proud of in my business?
10:40 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I mean both
10:45
Because I think that, I don't know, being proud is a big question. Um, I don't think I have a particular piece where I'm like that is my proudest piece that I've ever taken. Yeah, um, early on in my, you know, starting my business and you know, in the first probably like five to ten years, I used to always enter competitions and you'd win and then you'd be proud of doing those things, you know you'd be proud of a little bit and you'd be like, oh, that's really cool, like I did that or that was an international award, that was really cool. But I think if I look back and I've had my business now for 19 years I think the biggest things where I can look back and be like big, big points that I'm proud of, they would be that 14 years ago I left my job my nine to five because I realized that I had made this.
11:39
The income that I was making on this on the sidelines, was bigger than what I was making nine to five and so for the last 14 years I've worked for myself and I remember leaving that job and then moving into a scene where I was like I just work for myself now, that was a big, big thing, where I was like that was a proud point for me. Um, and then I think moving forward from that seven years ago was when I got my first commercial space and for me that was a big, because it was like I'm not a home-based business now, I have a commercial studio, and so that was something that I was proud of at the time. So I think there's there's always going to be like little things you're proud of, but then there's the big things, that it was like that's life-changing.
12:27
I work for myself. Now I don't work at home. Now I work in a commercial space. Um, day-to-day little little things. That make me proud, though, is I love when I'll be talking to a client on the phone, because I always do like a little phone consultation with whoever I'm working with, because I feel like it's important to not only book a session online, that you actually talk to them, and and be have that
12:53 - Alexis (Host)
Have that rapport with each other
12:55 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah and in those, in those you know little phone conversations and little consultations I have with people, um, so many times people like just photos of the kids. I hate photos of me. We're just doing photos of kids. I'm like, well, dress that you might be in some, because whether you come in track pants or not, you're going to be in some because I'm going to make you not in a bad way. But, and every single time I will take a photo of that parent and I spin my camera around and they look at it and they love it and they're like I hate photos of myself, but I love that one and there's a little part of you that it is…
13:34
It's, it's like I had, yeah, this is a little happy, proud feeling because you've made that person feel good. My camera can only take what's in front of them and what was in front of them was them and yeah, that's, that's a nice little proud feeling. That happens multiple times a week. And then I think newly, moving into within the last 16 months, um, I started doing art therapy and working with clients who, a lot of them, are like I have no creative bone in my body. I don't know how to be creative. I don't know how to do art, I don't know how to do anything, and during sessions, over time, even in the first sessions that we work together, they create a piece and all of a sudden they finish the piece and they realize that they can do that and that and I think seeing them so happy and so proud makes me proud that it's almost like you, you know, you drew it out of them and they they could do it, but they needed a nudge and so I think there's
14:42 - Alexis (Host)
A little guidance
14:43 - Anna (Host)
Yeah, and so I think, like I don't think that I could look at the time that I've been a photographer and been like I'm proud of, like this piece or this piece. I'm just proud of a few big pieces which were big moments, but then, daily and weekly, I'm just proud of making my clients feel good yeah.
15:08
I think that's. I love that. I love making them feel good yeah, I love it when they make something in a in an art therapy session and it makes them feel good. I love taking a photo of somebody and then they feel good in that photo and
15:24 - Alexis (Host)
It’s a gift, and you’re able to give that gift in all of those capacities I love that. On the flip side of talking about things that we're proud of, have you experienced or had like a challenge that sort of impacted your creativity and, if you don't mind, sharing like if there was one? And what was the major lesson?
15:55 - Anna (Guest)
For me personally a challenge like business wise or or creativity?
16:07 - Alexis (Host)
Creativity, like I think I can speak for myself, there have been times where my physical health with my crips diagnosis in my hand that has impacted my creativity yeah yeah, so you know health wise and um, but I mean, it could be anything yeah yeah, it could be, business could be.
16:27 - Anna (Guest)
I feel like I've been pretty fortunate with like um, physical health and mental health, that I've not had big challenges with those things, and even um, and even you know, during you know, having kids. I feel like after the birth of all our kids, it kind of like rebirthed creativity because I had like a new little person to you know, like my kids would go down for a nap and I would just like pose them and do all these things.
16:59 - Alexis (Host)
You know, you are my play toy
17:07 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, there is. Yeah, but I think for me, probably my biggest challenge, that impacted probably my creativity the most and I hate to say it was COVID. Yeah, because and I and I hate to say that that was what it was but I'd always had like such a smooth run and I'd never really had. You know, obviously there's like things in your life that come and go and they're hard, and but none of them really impacted the way that, like I always went to work or I'd always like that didn't impact what I was doing.
17:38
And then in COVID especially living in Victoria, with our lockdowns I was closed for 11 months. You know, and that wasn't 11 months in a row, but 11 months all up, like, and it was you'd open, then, instead of having newborns, I had babies that were coming in that were, like you know, 12 or 13 weeks old and I had to then, you know, be like you can't fit in my baskets. And then I have to rework what I do because you've booked a newborn session and then now I'm reopened and I've got to change and I think it kind of threw me because I hadn't worked for so long and everyone I don't want to say everyone, but I know a lot of people around me in COVID were struggling, sort of. You know, we're just in this space of nothing and then you go back to work and I'm like this isn't, it was just a new,
18:38
I had to just re rethink of every session that I did because it was all different and even the sessions that the sessions that I had outdoors, the first three weeks of outdoor sessions, anyone under the age of 12 had to wear a mask, so, yeah. So then I was like I can only work with kids under 12 and their parents were wearing a mask, standing at the side, and that, for me, we made it funny, we made it what it was, but I feel like, for me, having babies in the studio that were meant to be newborns and now they weren't, and just re changing props and changing like babies that are 12 weeks don't want to be wrapped like a, like a 10 day old baby. Yes, it's so different, and so I think it didn't. I made it work and everyone was happy with what I gave them, but I feel like that was probably my biggest challenge.
19:31
And I'm blessed that that was probably in the 19 years of my business that was the only time that I had that was, I don't know, COVID was a weird time. I think being closed just changed my thoughts and how I thought about you know. I just I think, being somebody that's creative, you always just want to be doing things and you know,
20:01 - Alexis (Host)
It is difficult to not have the ability to be creative.
20:04 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, because you can't do your outlet, yeah, you can't do what makes you happy, yeah, and then not being able to do what makes me happy for so long, but then going back and it's entirely different. And so I think, yeah, I think, I think that would, I think that's got to be it, yeah like yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:22 - Alexis (Host)
I find that this is, this is gonna be an interesting question as a photographer, but is there an object that you can't live without while you're creating, and why?
20:32 - Anna (Guest)
I mean probably my camera.
20:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why I was like I feel like it's, but then it could be something sentimental, something random that you might take with you.
20:42 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, look, I'm not like one of those people that I don't carry anything else around apart from the camera. Yeah, camera, I've always got a spare, I've got two spares. Oh, camera, I've always got a spare, I've got two spares, oh good, yeah, yeah, can't just take one camera. Yeah, I think my camera, but I don't think the sun is an object, but the sun is a massive object. If I could control the weather. No, I just, I just yeah, I don't carry anything around that I you know need for good luck or anything like that, but I do, I always do have a couple of spare cameras, but yeah,
20:20 - Alexis (Host)
And you're paying attention to where the sun's going.
21:22 - Anna (Host)
It's just, yeah, like I'm not going to photograph you at like 11.30am. No it's the sun. It's the sun and the camera.
21:33 - Alexis (Host)
True true, true. If someone wanted to do what you do, Anna, what piece of wisdom or advice would you give that person?
21:45 - Anna (Guest)
Do you know what I love this question heaps. Really I love it, I love it.
21:50 - Alexis (Host)
It fills my cup every time I meet people and their answers.
21:54 - Anna (Guest)
I love it, because, going all the way through high school and then through to finishing year 12, multiple times people like what are you gonna do? I'm like I want to be a photographer yeah, cool, but what else? No, that's all I'm gonna do, I just want to be a photographer. And then leaving school and then going to uni and doing a diploma of photography, people like what are you gonna do? I'm like I'm gonna be a photographer, what do you mean? They're like well, you gotta have a backup, and I never had a backup. I didn't have a backup because I felt like if I had a backup, I might have done the backup. So I just didn't want to have one.
22:40
But I think, having, being somebody that wants to do something in a field that's not a nine till five, you're always going to have people like What are you going to do, though? What are you going to do? So I think for me, it's like if you want to do something, you can do it, but no one, you have to make yourself do it. No one's going to do it for you. If you want to do it, you just have to work a different job until you can make it work or do, but just yeah. I think you just have to block everyone else out and just do it. Work really hard.
23:21
Remember when I went to uni, I was doing that five days a week. I worked at a restaurant six nights a week and then I worked at the surf shop on the weekends and so I had one night a week off. That was it. Yeah, and I did that for two years and everyone kept saying in that duration of that time, what are you going to do when you finish? I'm like I want to be a photographer.
23:50 - Alexis (Host)
Are you guys not hearing me?
23:52 - Anna (Guest)
This is what I'm going to do, and so it was. It was really hard and even like booking weddings in the beginning was really hard, but I knew that I could do it and I knew that that's all I wanted to do.
24:02 - Alexis (Host)
And then like you said it, it evolved and changed, yeah, and, and moved towards new things.
24:09 - Anna (Guest)
Yeah, definitely, since I had kids, like especially, I think I think having Harlow like it just changed what I wanted to do and I'm like I loved weddings and I loved it at the time.
24:20
But then, having Harlow, I just realized how quickly babies change and I'm like I want to capture that. I want to capture that little bit of, you know, newborns. You've got four weeks to capture that because, because between five and six weeks they look entirely different. They're not a newborn anymore, then they're a baby, and then they're a toddler and then and I, yeah, so for me I was like I want to do that. I want to capture that little special moment and I think for parents that that bit goes as a blur, like you hardly remember that. You remember bits and pieces, but just to capture the details of, like, all the little things. I'm like I want to. I want to do that. I want to be the person that captures that little blur.
25:08 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Extra question, what resources would you recommend if someone wanted to develop their creative process like and do what you do?
25:20 - Anna (Guest)
I think all the resources are different for, for every field that you work in, you know whether it's you know, being a photographer, being a tattoo artist, being a singer, being you know they're all, they're all going to be like a different thing that you need to tap into. I think that if you have something that you want to do, you just need to like, follow it yourself or find a tribe that's going to support you to do that and and go for it. You can jump on Instagram or Facebook and be so inspired by so many people that are doing good things and you're like I want to be that, I want to do that, and you're like, yeah, cool, do it. You know what I mean. I feel like these days, you can be inspired by anyone because you feel like you can do anything yeah.
26:08 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. If you could have someone else anyone come on to this podcast and answer these questions? Yeah, who would like to have on here and whY
26:29 - Anna (Guest)
Who would I choose? This one. I don't think I could answer it with like one person.
26:34 - Alexis (Guest)
No, give me a few,
26:35 - Anna (Host)
All right. So if I go with people that I personally know and that's where I'm going to go, yep, I think that Naphellel Watts from Saltwater Creative.
26:47
She is an incredible artist, yep she also runs workshops for resin and pottery and, amongst other things, she's just. She's an amazing businesswoman and I think she's inspirational to so many people more than she knows. And so I think Naphelle would be amazing, and I also think that Zoe Doland who is also. I don't know if you're familiar with her art?
27:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah her artwork is stunning.
27:15 - Anna (Guest)
I think she would be really fun to talk to as well.
27:18 - Alexis (Host)
Good choices, yeah. Good choices. Anna, thank you so much for coming through the creative door, and being on the podcast.
27:26 - Anna (Guest)
Oh thank you, Alexis
27:28 - Alexis (Host)
It was such a joy. Loved it. Love you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
-
In this episode, we dive deep into the world of creativity with Adelaide's own clown, actor, and director, Hew Parham. Known for his unique comedic characters and acclaimed performances like Symphonie Of The Bicycle and A Not So Trivial Pursuit.
In this episode, we chat with Hew about his creative process, the importance of physical and mental space in his work, and the challenges and triumphs that come with being a professional clown and performer. Whether he's mentoring with the British troupe Spymonkey or performing his beloved character Giovanni, Hew's dedication to his craft and passion for pushing artistic boundaries shines through.
Tune in for an inspiring conversation that explores the highs and lows of a life dedicated to bringing joy and thoughtfulness to audiences around the world.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Hew on instagram; @hewparham
This episode was recorded on 9 December 2023 on the lands of the Kaurna Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Creative references from Hew:
Pema Chodron - When Things Fall Apart
James Thiérrée
Julia Cameron - The Artist’s Way
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—-----------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door conversations along the way. Welcome to.
00:52 - Alexis (Host)
Hello Hugh, how are you going?
00:54 - Hew (Guest)
I'm good. Good, it's early, but we're here.
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
We're in rainy Adelaide. What have you done? What is this? I know I wanted the sun.
01:02 - Hew (Guest)
I promised you hot weather, the other day I was like it's good beach weather and then it's like Not acceptable.
01:14 - Hew (Guest)
I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, I've had a really good week. I've been working with some dancers on a piece about loneliness I love this which was really, really cool. It was just working as like an outside eye dramaturg kind of working with text, just because those guys don't work with text a lot, so that was really fun. I actually had a really fun kind of nice. Kind of was nice to kind of waltz in and go yeah, that's good. Okay, bye.
01:41 - Alexis (Host)
I love it.
01:43 - Hew (Guest)
Rather than the week before was like I don't know what to do about this. Yeah, it's funny. You have some weeks that are like and then other weeks are. Yeah, that's the creative life.
01:54 - Alexis (Host)
It is yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming through the creative door. And you are such a talented bear, such a talented bear. You are a professional talented bear, such a talented bear. You are a professional clown, you're an actor, you direct things that you were just saying before and I don't know. You're just such a champion in like lifting others up and doing so many amazing things.
02:18 - Hew (Guest)
Oh, thank you.
02:22 - Alexis (Host)
It's so interesting because, like we're talking about, like creative spaces, but for you, I'm curious, like what does a creative space mean for you, cause it could be very different depending on what you're doing right.
02:49 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely, um, I I'm pretty like in terms of like I'm pretty bad at home, I think I need a. I mean, it depends, sometimes I can kind of get into a pretty good writing mojo, depending on the day, but I do, I mean, I guess, in terms of like a physical space, like I often I do prefer a studio if I can get one, studio if I can get one, and then, um, uh, because I guess I find my work is often, um, quite physical, or often I kind of write a lot. I would say I write a lot through the body, so it's good for me to.
03:17
I find, rather than you know, I think, if I sit at the laptop and write too much, often you find it's you go to read it out later and it's a bit stale, a bit laptopy, so I kind of find sometimes just being able to roam around in the space often probably like voice record a lot lie in the corner, have a cry, get back up again, play music, sort of. You can feel like you can be a bit of a disaster, um in the best possible way um, I made a show a few years ago called Rudy's the Rinse Cycle, and I had a studio of my own at the time. Yeah, and.
03:52
I was like I would never have been able to make that show without that studio, because I don't know whether I was a bit blocked coming into it. And then it was only. I was in the Cabaret Festival, which is a pretty big festival in Adelaide, and it was about two weeks out and I didn't have anything. It was just like, oh my God, and so, but because I had that studio, I just went in from like 9 am to 11 o'clock at night and I don't know just be able to kind of, like you know, write and then kind of sit and look out the window and write and then sit out the window and yeah, that kind of space to kind of be able to designate I often find helps me a little bit. Um, mentally, mentally, I had this kind of funny thought. I got this show, symphony, the bicycle and in a weird way, like I've said, this thing where I go.
04:39
I don't know if I would have been able to write that show if it wasn't for lockdown in a way, because like it was sort of like one maybe I had a deadline and to present a draft, but actually kind of having that space at that time was really massive.
04:55
And then I was also really lucky to get JobKeeper, which I think just having that freedom and income and you know that steady income for that bit, and I was went to this conference recently they're talking about this universal basic income for artists and this, you know this thing going on Ireland and I certainly found, when I had, you know, I had that income coming in, that I could actually just I could every day so just get up without kind of having to go off and do other things and just write.
05:29
I'm sure it wasn't perfect. Maybe I'm looking back on it romantically a little bit, but I think sometimes I find having that kind of separation or I guess recently, when I got a grant to work on a new show and I guess to have that three weeks specifically that I could kind of go and dedicate myself to and really kind of this is the time to work on this, I find sometimes when my brain is a bit split in four or five different directions and I'm, you know, I'm going to gig if I'm doing other kind of stuff and then things like that. Then I guess that I find sometimes that's tricky to kind of really go deep with something. So yeah, that's a few things in regards to space
06:09 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it's um, I think sometimes it is nice to separate, you know, home work, you know, and sort of have that actual physical difference in environment yeah, I mean not for everybody, but sometimes it's a frame of mind too, but yeah, yeah, I think it is nice to, yeah, be able to step into or out of.
06:38 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah, like I think at home it's just so easy to get. Well, I'll just do a little bit of this and so it's much easier to procrastinate and sort of put some washing on.
06:49 - Alexis (Host)
Put some washing on yeah, yeah, um, yeah.
06:54 - Hew (Guest)
But then I think there's times I get into pretty good modes, um, and I guess even maybe a designation of space within the house. I sometimes find, as I think, when I've got sort of the spare room which is kind of set up for my creative room, a little office, a bit more of my office, and I think for a while I didn't have that kind of set up and at some point I really actually kind of specified no, this is that space for that, and to kind of almost go through that kind of creative door in a way that you go, okay, this is the space to kind of be creative and throw my phone into the river so you don't look at it. And it's like, oh God.
07:33 - Alexis (Host)
You've got to put it in one of those jars that has a lock or a timer or something.
07:36 - Hew (Guest)
I've been thinking about getting a phone prison. Oh man.
07:44 - Alexis (Host)
You have been part of so many projects. You have created so many amazing things, so this is probably going to be a hard question. But is there a body of work or something you've been part of that you're most proud of, and how did it come about?
08:00 - Hew (Guest)
I mean like all of them in different ways. I think a bit like Symphony of the Bicycle. I guess I'm proud of that. In different ways, I think it'd be like Symphony of the Bicycle. I guess I'm proud of that in some senses of I developed that. That took about seven to eight years to develop that show and sometimes you wonder with projects like should you let it go? And I often think with that one where it goes, it's a 90 minute beast.
08:25
It started out as I had this idea of wanting to make a 20 minute clown show about a cyclist, just like a really cute little silent kind of thing, and then it ended up being this enormous behemoth, was like 20 accents and all these characters and but I guess it's.
08:46
I kind of. There was this determination to tell this story in that show, especially about this real-life character, Gino Bartali, who was a cyclist who won the Tour de France in 1938 and 1948. And there's this thing which I always found fascinating about him is that during World War II he would go on these secret training rides to save, transport these documents, to save Jews in Northern Italy, and he never told anyone about it until near where he died. And I guess there was something about that, that nobility, and there was something about him that I kind of went. It was almost like part of me that I needed to explore. And then it's interesting working with collaborators. I don't know it's like and I don't bemoan any of them, but I think I guess it's sometimes and I probably as a director as well I've got to be careful when I'm trying to shape things away from maybe where the performer might want to be going but, I just had this feeling that I wanted to tell this story
09:50
I kind of it really felt like it was going away from it.
09:52
I don't know whether it was obstinate or not, whether it was him, because he's a pretty dogmatic, stubborn character, but I just it's like I felt like I had to really really hold firm to that thread of the story and really wanting to tell it, and at times it was going in all sorts of other directions.
10:08
And then it's, I think at some point people started to get it and they started to go no, he's, and it became such a massive part of the show and I guess then doing the show and then when people hear that story they're like, oh, now I want to Google him and I want to learn about him and stuff like that, and I go that I guess validation of yeah, I don't know it's sort of interesting about when to let people in and when to let other influence in and then when to kind of go to hold firm to an idea and kind of go no, I need to tell this. So I think that in a funny way kept me going across seven, eight years to kind of keep it going and through covid and through lockdown and stuff like that that are going now it's sort of I'm still determined to make it happen in a way.
10:57 - Alexis (Host)
Lots of body of work to be proud of. Yeah, yeah on the flip side of things that you're proud of. I'm curious have you had challenges that you've sort of come across, that have stunted or affected your creativity? And if so, what do you think the major lessons or lesson has been?
11:20 - Hew (Guest)
Lots of things, lots like perfectionism is a pretty big thing for me. Highly perfectionistic it's actually. When you said, when you asked the question is, what came to mind was a bit my other show I've sort of got going at the moment A Not So Trivial Pursuit, and that show I it's. It ended up not being again maybe the show that I expected I was gonna make, make I was going to make this this idea of
11:50 - Alexis (Host)
Does it ever end up the way that we?
11:53 - Hew (Guest)
Often? It doesn't. No, no. And sometimes I think you've also just got to let it go and let it live and take on what form it wants to take on and let yourself be surprised. And um, yeah, I guess you know it is that balance of when to take on and let yourself be surprised. And yeah, I guess it is that balance of when to let go and then when to hold firm and but, yeah, that show. I had this crazy idea of doing six different scenes based on the different categories of Trivial Pursuit, with six different clown directors from around the world, and then it just turned out to be an absolute nightmare, like trying to get everyone together and timing. And then in Adelaide, we were in this little bubble for a while a bit after you know, it was sort of actually things were quite good, and then we opened up the borders and then Omicron hit and then three of the directors that are here were parents, and then it was like they had to homeschool their kids. Schools closed down and then, um, and then I'm not exactly sure what I was going through mentally at the time I don't think I was maybe in the best state of mind like a few things had sort of happened and then I was finding, when I was even just trying to make the show as it was.
13:13
I was it's funny I was really, I was giving up on everything. I was giving up on all my ideas. I would. I'd never really had that sense before. I had other times where I'd go, oh, that's shit or that doesn't work, but it was this sort of more, this real kind of defeated, like, this sort of real kind of collapse, this sort of um, yeah, it was this sort of very strange state that I hadn't experienced before, whether it was a bit of a depression or something and whether there's a few other things that were happening in life at that time. So I I mean it was probably a big help with some of my directors that were there probably helping and kind of helping persist through it. I remember there was this I did a session with my teacher in Canada that just he was again like just show me anything. Like show me anything, anything, just anything, just get anything out.
14:09
And I had to really like, like, just off the floor.
14:13 - Alexis (Host)
Like you're really like pushing uphill yeah yeah,
14:15 - Hew (Guest)
But then sometimes you just like it's like you just hang on to something, like you just hook onto something, and I think there's this character in the show the rules Nazi, and I think at that moment it was like oh, I think there's something in him.
14:31
I think there's something in him, so let's like follow him for a little bit and then and then I think, where there was almost these kind of like ice picks that you sort of just kind of found up, like you found that bit and then, and then maybe that gave me a little bit of scaffolding to kind of go, and then you sort of, and then find another little bit.
14:48 - Alexis (Host)
It's such a challenge to really just trust the process and if you've not done it before, it's being comfortable in the uncomfortable and yeah, it's just everyone tells you just to follow the process, but, like when you've not done that before, you're just like what do you mean? It all feels yeah yeah hard and shit and there's resistance and yeah you know you self-doubt and all of the yeah, it's tough.
15:21 - Hew (Guest)
It's probably where a lot of projects have stalled for me is probably when I've become focused on the product. So, however scary, I've got to find a way to go back to process and go, and that might be like what do I want to discover about myself, you know? Or I just want to work on my writing and I want to work on my dialogue, or, yeah, I want to work on through this show building my physicality and getting to do better than my physicality. Or I'm gonna work on my accents and this is a really great having you to work on my voice and stuff like that you can kind of look at again. Oh, that’s weird. Then you also quite good.
16:07 - Alexis (Host)
Out of curiosity do you have like a thing or an object that you can't live without when you create?
16:15 - Hew (Guest)
Yes, there's a few things. I'm a bit of a pen obsessive, love Officeworks. This is my favourite pen.
16:25 - Alexis (Host)
We're not sponsored by Officeworks, by the way.
16:27 - Hew (Guest)
Or by Uniball. Hi, uniball, if you're there, I love your 0.7 signo. Uh, that's my favourite. My favorite pen because I do uh, I do journal quite a bit. Um, there's a thing called The Artist’s Way um, which is the book, yes, um, which is probably like probably a lot of people in the arts have probably done and gone like oh, my God like it will drive you crazy. Yeah, but it is transformative, so no wonder it keeps going around.
17:01 - Alexis (Host)
And I guess I was just speaking to someone a couple of days ago who just bought it as well, I was like oh, it's making the rounds again.
17:13 - Hew (Guest)
Making the rounds again. Yeah. I saw some in a cafe a little while ago and I was like, oh God, maybe for those who don't know, it's a 12, what do they call it? A 12 week recovery program, recovery program? I don't know. Is it program? I can't speak For creatives or I guess anyone really, but there's a thing in that is the morning pages, which is three pages freehand every morning.
17:34 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, there's. There's something about that physicality pen to paper. I don't know what that is
17:37 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah yeah and then I've probably started to use voice notes a lot and voice recording.
17:45
I love it yeah, and kind of, because I get like maybe being with dialogue and stuff like that, that's sort of trying to come up, I think if you can talk it out, and then it is more conversational and you get weirder phrasing and it's more real phrasing, and then and then taking it and transcribing it, and then you might need to muck stuff around a little bit.
18:05
So I find that quite good. I use butcher's paper a lot, butcher's paper and sharpies, so I do a process called clustering, which is that's an essential part of my writing process. So I get a big piece of butcher's paper and in the middle I might write something like images and desires of myself as the ultimate scientist I wanted to explore a scientist character and then I circle that and then I just write like absolute gung-ho, like write a sentence, circle it, write another sentence, circle it, write da, da, da, and then you kind of you might go to the end of what I call a stanza. You might have I don't know 14 of them or you might have 30 of them. Go back to the middle circle, write, write write until you fill up the whole butcher's paper.
19:00
So it's full of these bubbles amazing and then what you do is um, I get another notepad and then I um, close my eyes and I spin the cluster and whatever I put my finger on, whatever a bubble I put my finger on, they go. I'm an Albert Einstein looking at a nuclear bomb or whatever.
19:23 - Hew (Guest)
Albert Einstein looking at a nuclear bomb, and then then spit it again. Whatever bubble I go, he thinks this is a bad idea or whatever um, and then I'll spit it again until I don't know. It's sort of about like 14 to 20 lines forms a poem and then the title of the poem is the top, which is images desires for myself as the ultimate scientist, or ultimately hungry, or ultimately a character, or my ultimate song could be anything, and then you read the poem and then you read the poem top down, and then the trippy thing is is read the poem bottom up and then, some reason, 95% of the time reading the poem bottom up, you're like it makes sense where you go.
20:11
Oh, sense, or you go, oh that's the show or that's the bit, or so. I find that a really great process for, like, I guess, a lot of trying where possible, where I can go to the right brain yeah, at times trying to be too logical, often that's a good circuit breaker. If I need a, a thing I'm a bit stuck maybe go to that or, like, often use it in a lot of initial stages and then to kind of to find stuff. There might just be an image in it that's really unexpected that you go. Oh, or the way two lines join up which kind of go that to that goes. Oh my God, that makes so much sense. But it's sort of to that goes. Oh my god, that makes so much sense. But it's sort of it's a slightly deeper place or something like that. So, um, I find that a really great, a really great tool.
21:03
Um, music is massive for me. I like I work with music 99% of the time. That's probably one of my biggest tools and triggers. And, um, often I like I write to use a lot of ambient music, but then I like to also surprise myself as well, and often music will lead and I will kind of I think I got from the artist way. It's not that it tells you to do it, but they said this thing about go on artist dates and so take yourself out to do different things. And a thing that I did was in my car I've got a six CD player and I find, you know, with streaming, you know, often it sort of feels like it's trying to lead you where you want to go or what your tastes are with things like Spotify, whereas I find sometimes going to the library and then just picking out six random CDs and kind of going oh okay, that looks interesting, that looks interesting.
22:00
And then putting those, and then I put those six CDs in my car for two weeks and then I'd kind of just listen to them, and then it's often it's like oh, that's crap, that's crap, that's crap.
22:09
But then you go, oh, that's interesting, yeah, I hadn't thought of that style before, or and then like and then I used to when I had a really old, crappy car which didn't have anything, just had the radio, and then often I just would go between different radio stations and sort of go just like in the car and then sort of like you know a big part of Giovanni and how that grew, was just listening to SBS radio and just trying to practice gibberish along to that, was trying to kind of create this almost Italian kind of gibberish to that.
22:39 - Alexis (Host)
Giovanni's, one of your shows?
22:40 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah, so it was an Italian waiter character that I played, yeah, um, so there's things like that. I guess you know where possible like tools and resources, you know like where, if you can, you know your community, your collaborators, your peers is a big part of it finding those people that you really trust, your feedback and that you can kind of go to and that you sort of you've got a really good simpatico with. Probably for me, you know therapy, you know it's probably because it is, you know, it does bring up stuff and my work is very personal as well. So I think I mean I'm sometimes a little bit obsessive on that side of as well, but, um, those kind of, I guess, tools of taking care of yourself.
23:24
You know I've found at times, therapy really useful and then other kind of self-care things, um, spiritually, books like um Pema Chodron’s When Things Fall Apart there's often a book I go back to. I've found it's weirdly, I've found that book around the world when I've been in moments of distress. It's sort of. It's like it's almost kind of pops up.
23:44
It just pops up and it's like everything will be okay and um also there's, I kind of think I mean I probably need to get a bit better at it at right at the moment, but it's also like in your skills and looking at your skills. And I think another thing I got from artist way was I like one of the artist dates and I had this thing of, for some reason I went there was this shop and it had this box set of DVDs probably watching DVDs a bit more of this French clown for Jacques Tati and I kept on looking at that box set. No, no, it's maybe a hundred and ten dollars or something like that.
24:22
And I guess the Artit’s Way was quite good at going. You know, feed your artist and so what did your artist want? And I think I need to buy that box set and I bought that box set and um and his movies they're great with them in. They're slow and they're ponderous at times. But then what was really good was they would have these different directors analyze the movie afterwards and I actually kind of found them like they were breaking down comedy and they're breaking down the way comedy works and how he'd shoot and what he would do and certain gestures and other things that he did and actually through that I went oh, this is my craft like this is my craft, so like, , and then you know, and then.
24:58 - Alexis (Host)
You had the aha moment
25:01 - Hew (Guest)
Yeah So what I every now and then what I need to do is I'll go back to YouTube, you know, get YouTube resource, and then I might watch clown routines. Like I'll probably twice a year watch James Thierree who's Charlie Chaplin's grandson, who's just like like is there one, like can he share a bit of talent with someone else?
25:20 - Alexis (Host)
How very dare you
25:23 - Hew (Guest)
He's like incredibly good looking. He's a phenomenal clown. He's so buff he, like he can roll a blade while playing the violin and then, he, he creates and directs and writes t, oh god, I'm like, oh he's, he's ripped.
23:35 - Alexis (Host)
Got some bromance happening here, don't you
25:40 - Hew (Guest)
I'm like you're like, he’s ripped! oh my god, I need to, but like he's, but it's just, his skill, you know, and it's also it, it's so playful. And then, I guess, feeding yourself in that way, so even kind of going back to that, and even these sort of silly little clown routines that I might like or you know, I guess that's in some way that kind of goes ah, you know, that's your, you know. So I guess you know, whatever your field is, that you sort of also kind of um, remind yourself that it is your world and it's your skill and give to your artist and you know what kind of feeds the artist as well, you know so.
26:26 - Alexis (Host)
As a as a musician, like some of my managers or like mentors have always said. It's like punters don't know necessarily and can't pinpoint it, but it's that authenticity and that, that thing that they can connect in and they don't know what that is, it's just something that they can latch onto right. If you could give one piece of advice or nugget of advice to another creative, what would it be?
26:47 - Hew (Guest)
You know, a big part of clown is is like failure, I think, and being okay with failing and I guess sometimes we're afraid of I guess maybe sometimes it's even just that maybe even that first idea or dumping it out or it might be bad or something like that.
27:07
And so I think sometimes just like or I can't remember who is it, is it Elizabeth Gilbert or Anne Lamott, whatever, talk about the shitty first draft, and I think the riot in a way is sort of just sometimes and it gets a bit like what my teacher would. Trivial pursuit was like just get it out, just get something out and then let's look on it and so then find that little scaffolding. So I guess sometimes just you know, finding another thing, my teacher would say it's, it's not work, it's puke. So he would say like vomited it out, and then you're like get it out, and then you can kind of look at it and you can find those little chunks and you can sort of go like, oh, that's actually that piece of pineapple is kind of interesting. Let's kind of put that over there. That's kind of unexpected. So I guess sometimes I think where maybe we can be kind of so paralyzed or so worried about doing perhaps anything, or like having the whole picture or something like that.
28:05 - Alexis (Host)
So I think that we just don't start.
28:07 - Hew (Guest)
We just don't start, you know, yeah, yeah.
28:11 - Alexis (Host)
One last question.
28:12 - Hew (Guest)
Yes.
28:13 - Alexis (Host)
If you could have anyone come on to this podcast and answer these questions who would it be, and why?
28:20 - Hew (Guest)
I was thinking about this one. It's like I mean, the dream would be Tom Waits. You know go to California and go to his farm and have a chat with Tom Waits that would be amazing. Um my friend, Ida Sophia, who's a visual artist here and she's started to do really um fascinating kind of immersive, durational performance art work um, which often is sort of very, very, very personal.
28:51
There's been a couple of shows about her dad and I feel like it's a real, I think it's just, I guess, someone it's a friend and I kind of I'm not jealous at all, but I just actually kind of see, I feel like she has found her thing and she is in and really challenging this form in Australia and really kind of doing some really interesting work. Um, so yeah
29:13 - Alexis (Host)
Oh Hew , thank you so much for being on the podcast through the creative door.
29:23 - Hew (Guest)
It's been an absolute pleasure thank you for having me.
29:25 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Thank you.
-
In this episode, Alexis welcomes the multi-talented Evie Lucas. Evie, a musician and creator of a wearable art brand Seams Nice, chats about her glittery jackets, travel, plants, fabrics, and music career. From capturing vocals on an iPhone and singing in a Latvian choir to building a brand that clothed pop star Bebe Rexha, Evie advocates for embracing experimentation. She emphasises that stepping into the unknown can yield delightful results, encouraging everyone to explore uncharted creative territories.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Evie on instagram;
Music @ evielucasmusic
Wearable Art @ seams.nice
DJ @ djevielucas
This episode was recorded on 7 December 2023 on the lands of the Kaurna Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Creative references from Evie:
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
00:49 - Alexis (Host)
Hello, how are you going?
00:52 - Evie (Guest)
I’m good thank you
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
Evie, I am so chuffed to be in your space. Thank you so much for coming on to Through The Creative Door. We're through your creative door.
01:02 - Evie (Guest)
You're welcome. Yeah, it's a bit squishy.
01:04 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my God, it's not squishy, it's fucking amazing. So I'm looking around a beautiful room with beautiful plants and beautiful glittery jackets and lots of fabric and a keyboard and I don't know, just like all the things that just make me smile.
01:23 - Evie (Guest)
Oh, that's good, that's good. You're found your way around there. You're in this, the sewing zone section yeah.
01:31 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. Um, so a bit about you. I mean, you are such a clever, talented bear. You have so many creative ventures yeah,
01:43 - Evie (Guest)
I can't help myself a little bit. I'm busy.
01:48 - Alexis (Host)
No, in all of the best possible ways. I mean I have fanned girled you from afar. You are such a talented musician, um, and I also. You know you work with one of my dear friends. Sophie Head as well, which I'm very jealous of some of the creative stuff that you guys have done.
02:11 - Evie (Guest)
Come join Tipsy Twain.
02:17 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my God, it'd be so good, I know. Every time I was like what else are you doing for fringe? What? else are you doing? But you, you apart from, obviously, music being one of your major loves um you have a wearable art brand?
02:33 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah I'd say, for seems nice, yeah, so that was the idea um to try and fund music, because music doesn't necessarily fund life.
02:44 - Alexis (Host)
Don't I know it.
02:46 - Evie (Guest)
So the idea was to make my own merch or make things that I could sell as merch and like why not have it be wearable art? I've started with tinsel jackets, but I want it to get a whole lot weirder. I've got like like lots of Pinterest boards and lots of um ideas that in the middle of the night you wake up to go yeah and then you wake up and go no, no, no, how?
03:15
So um, like, there's tinsel jackets, but the next sort of thing is going to be like raincoats with the tops of the tinsel. You know it comes in a strip at the top, like to chop that up into different patterns and put that in a raincoat so it's glittery but bits don't fall off and go into you know your world, or a festival or whatever. Yeah, like I want to do things that are glittery and outrageous, but that the pieces don't come off, because if you shimmy hard enough in this, you'll get some casualties.
03:39 - Alexis (Host)
So, um, I mean, you want to encourage the shimminess?
03:51 - Evie (Guest)
Well, you can't help it when you wear one. I guess yeah, yeah, the shimmy movement, it's just, it's yeah Part of it, yeah, so. But um, yeah, I wanted to have something, um something else. But yeah, there's lots of other ideas and like I want to do beading things and, um, yeah, like sequins and beaded stuff. But I think the idea is too that I need to do something with my hands. I'm very busy. I can't kind of help it, so if I'm watching tv I can't really sit still, I've never been. I've always been like drawing or painting or something while watching tv to chill out. So sewing actually feels like that's why there's a tv in here too. It'll be like Will and Grace or Kath & Kim or like some kind of something on like my partner's.
04:28
Like, can you? That's a Kath & Kim quote, isn't it? So like, um, I'll be watching tv and sewing. So, um, it was to. Yeah, it's all like inclusive, all part of it. So it fuels multiple kind of parts of life and people have been super stoked when they've gotten a jacket so far. So I've been really, really happy with that. Um, and like just all of the clients that I've had that have gotten jackets have just been so awesome and lovely people. Yeah, like I had two brides in Perth, actually two brides from WA both wear jackets for their wedding when they got married. That's sick, yeah, it was so good and like just their colour choices. And they sent me a little video.
05:10
Someone else was in it wearing dancing, and it just looked like such a good time. So, yeah, I don't know, it just all feels a bit more like joyful. Like I did lots of paper art and stuff and it was something to look at but something to wear. Um, where someone else feels that stagecraft.
05:29
So I, yeah, started this thing to fund music releases because if I can sell some jackets then I could make a song and release that and then that could sort of be like a roll-on sort of effect, bit of give me some momentum, um, and it definitely has kind of done that. All of these jackets this year have helped me get to um, go to Latvia and be part of that choir, so it did fund things towards music totally, and that was like music, family heritage, like grabbing back with both hands, like heritage and stuff that I haven't been able to have access to. So that's been really really cool. Um, yeah and um a friend um helped me design um, all of that, because I was just like I just can't do the branding stuff, like help me um with that. So she, she did that and it sort of really helped kind of like elevate it and um, working with someone else when you know you can't do a hundred percent of everything.
06:27
Because I would always try and do that. Like I started doing singing lessons and then I was like, okay, I want to do like, be singing and do a gig. Okay, I need to be able to play guitar too. Okay, um, I have to learn how to play guitar. And then I want to write some songs. Okay, well, I got to try and practice writing songs and then I want to try and release them. So I got to learn Ableton and then I got to record everything and try and do that and try mixing, and then that's kind of quite hard too, and then releasing and do social media and just like making the merch, and then so it was too many things, so just taking like a piece of it off was quite nice.
07:01 - Alexis (Host)
It is nice to share the hats. It is definitely nice to share, yeah.
07:05 - Evie (Guest)
I like wearing lots of them, but um, taking some off is nice too.
07:10 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it is nice yeah, since we are in this beautiful creative space of yours and I know we've spoken a little bit about you know some of the items in here but what does a creative space mean to you and why?
07:26 - Evie (Guest)
um, I think I was always of this sort of opinion that the space has to feel right before you can do something creative, which that might be like me being really particular or something, but having, um, it's like part of the vibe or something that it has. The vibe has to be right to then feel relaxed enough to go do stuff. That, yeah, it was sort of about that. So I've got like I mean, there's kind of stuff everywhere but I know where everything is like this yeah, reeds of fabric everywhere, but organized chaos.
08:02
If you were like, oh, have you got any wire? I'm like, yeah, it's down deep in that drawer there like I can pin to the left.
08:07
Yeah, literally like where things are where everything is. I know where things are, so, um, but it's just to get the vibe right and I'll still like, maybe, be in the lounge room and sprawl fabric out everywhere if I need more, more space or whatever. But, um, yeah, this was meant to be, this was our dining room, but, like I am always eating on the go anyway, or uh, why do I feel so angry?
08:35 - Alexis (Host)
oh right, I haven't eaten in 10 hours because I've been sewing like I just I don't do that too way, like I'm not sewing. I am not a sewer. YIi to anyone listening, do not ask me to sew anything, um, but yeah, I do that too. We're like not sewing. I am not a sewer. If I are to anyone listening, do not ask me to sew anything, um, but yeah, I do that too. I'm like so immersed, yeah, that I forget to eat and suddenly I'm like shaking.
08:52 - Evie (Guest)
I'm like yeah, like oh my god, what do I need to? Yeah, so, um, yeah, having the space used as like a bit of an office or creative space was more like suited us better than having a dining room to sit and sit still, we like yeah, so yeah, just to have the space feel like the right vibe, pretty much.
09:16 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, so true, it's nice to have a designated space.
09:21 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah
09:23 - Alexis (Host)
Just to be in. I know we've touched on all of well, not all of, but quite a lot of your creative ventures, but is there a body of work or one particular project that you're most proud of creating, and how'd it come about?
09:40 - Evie (Guest)
um, I guess probably I feel most proud at the moment of where all of this has kind of led me currently. Like it feels like I was going from thing to thing to thing for a long time in lots of different directions and then just going, oh right, why don't I just bring it all together? Then it all kind of made sense, because then I could make something and then make 20 other versions of it and then wear that thing in a film clip and then suddenly you've got something that does all go together. Um, and then I got this message on Instagram and it was like this person going oh, I'm, I'm a, I'm a stylist and I work in the entertainment industry and all this kind of stuff, and I was like, oh sure like me too, I was like I don't know who this person is, um, and just give like all the same info like, no worries, thanks for your message and just try and give, like you know, your good customer service and and
10:36
chat to them and, um, I said they had some kind of project and if I wanted to um, know more details, what's a good email and whatever else. And I just said I've got what I've got available online at the moment, like some trench coats and jackets, but I'm totally happy to discuss with you and try and like. It's mostly about meeting deadlines.
10:55
Someone will be like oh can I have this in LA by next Wednesday? And I go, oh my God, probably not. Like with the post, like the like with the post, um. But then I looked at their profile and they had like dressed like Gwen Stefani and Paris Hilton and people like this, and I was like what? Like sure, okay, um. And they said, oh, yeah, no, we, we really want, um, the pink trench coat, um, and the sizing works well.
11:24
So I've gone ahead and purchased that on Shopify and, um, I was like okay. And then like I need it ASAP, though can you take it down to FedEx and use here's my like login, whatever, no worries, um, and I just need it ASAP. And I was like okay, uh, all right. And so I took it down and shipped it off and everything matched up the name and everything matched up and I was like okay. And then, like it arrived and they'd said they'd got it. And then I was like who's this gonna end up on? But it was, um, Bebe Rexha. She sings that I'm blue, yeah, um, and it was part of her tour, um, and I know she wore it in her shows for being like going across the US. I was like what the?
12:05 - Alexis (Host)
That's amazing.
12:07 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, I was just like what? Um, it was just so cool to see something that I had made with my hands on stage with somebody like that um, and I didn't have to do any of the performing sort of side of it, like, giving that thing away, that here, like, and if, like, that's the point of the clothes that I want to make is that it's meant to enhance how you feel about yourself, how you perform on stage, whether it's part of a performance or not.
12:34
Um, like, recently I had, um a drag queen wear that as part of their performance too which was awesome, um, and so, just like that level of confidence that it seems that drag requires too, like you need um more um I don't know like the performance, wear and stuff has to be that elevated sort of thing. So I'd love to make more kind of pieces that are in that kind of realm. It seems like wearable art and I'm inspired by all of that kind of stuff, like these couture designers that do things for um drag runways and part of the or the drag shows. It's really cool. But, um, yeah, that kind of wearable art thing, um has been this kind of thing that I guess I feel more proud of.
13:18 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah, amazing, so so cool. Yeah, now, on the flip side of something that you're proud of, has there been a challenge to your creativity, and what do you think that major lesson was or is?
13:40 - Evie (Guest)
I think the biggest one is trying to balance real life. Whether it's like you know, your just your life. You have to afford and live like a real adult and pay your bills and all that kind of stuff. That, and for a lot of my friends I noticed that can really stifle your creativity, just like
14:02 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening off off. Uh, mic, we, yeah, we talked about the housing crisis. Yeah, good times good times.
14:08 - Evie (Guest)
But I think I had like seven grand put on my HECS just out of interest, like just interest, this this year, like uh, it's just wild, like how like people used to be paid for, paid to go to uni or the uni was free and stuff like um, it's just wild, like so trying to, yeah, just keep your head above water and and because I am, I think someone that's going to be doing gig life, like gig economy, like teaching, singing lessons is like a gig if, um, which is dependent on that student's health, like if kids are sick or whatever, you have to make up the lesson later and if you don't get to, or you, you have to make it work, yeah, um, so that kind of stress to make things work and make things happen is probably a bit stifling.
15:01
Like I said, I haven't released anything like this year. There's a lot of like um half finished things or, like you know, you get into the zone of writing, maybe, and then you have a bank of songs that you need to then go record and, um, I think just life happens and then you have to try and prioritize it and I probably this year, differently, I haven't been good at prioritizing that side of things, I think. I think I'm in a bit of a writing chunk, but not a production chunk.
15:33 - Alexis (Host)
I mean it's all seasons right. I know for me. Yeah, definitely go through a season where it's like yeah, I don't feel like gigging, I just want to write and just be in that space and and then yeah, the recording side of things and just want to be with others and creating, or, yeah, I don't know, I feel like it's seasons you're just in a different season.
15:53 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, and I haven't really, because when I finished uni and I took off to Bali and I'd saved a bunch of money and I was like I just need to get out of Melbourne and I had that time. I was there for like a year and a bit and it was a chunk of creative time like that, because there wasn't, or there was still, like you know, bills and whatever money things to try and sort out, but I worked my butt off to save that chunk, so that I was.
16:19
I was right for a while, um, and then I could write and practice and all that stuff. So trying to collect or save some time for yourself seems like really hard to do because you're sacrificing something, whether it's like time with family or having some kind of like stability, stable job, whatever that is. I don't know if I could actually do that. I tried it and I failed and I'm sorry because my friend got me that job.
16:45 - Alexis (Host)
I, you didn’t fail. It just wasn't. It wasn't the right thing for you, it wasn't on your path.
16:50 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah and I just kind of expected that after the 40-hour week I would have a ton of energy to go use on creative stuff. I was depleted and so unhappy Like. I remember doing a Zoom call with someone and they were like are you okay.
17:09
Like I just just evaporated out of myself. I thought I looked so unhappy so I can't, can't do that. But I guess, yeah, just managing the, the gig life, can take it out of you a bit. So I think, yeah, trying to take enough of a chunk of time out of a week, or just I don't know whether to spread that out over time, or like buy yourself time, have like a month off where you just do go somewhere and write and produce, or whatever. I don't know what the right thing is to do, necessarily, but I'm sure that's something that I haven't been so great at, especially this year. Or I've just said yes to too many things, like the Latvian choir.
17:53 - Alexis (Host)
But it's so nice being able to say yes to things, but it's like we've got to have the art of saying no, right. Yeah, is there an object or a thing that you can't live without when you're creating? And I suppose that would probably be different questions for the different streams of creation.
18:09 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, you do like I have to have a sewing machine to get anywhere um, but um, I guess not so much an object like I like having precious things in here, like this plant was from a cutting from um my auntie like friend, family friend, auntie auntie's house and that was from a cutting that my mum had given her.
18:37
So like yeah, and like she passed away when I was 18. So it's literally it feels very special. I'm surprised it's growing because I can keep these, like Monstera, but other ones, like I, kill quite easily, so I think it's hanging on. But it feels really special to have like things like that in here and like it's mum sewing machines and it's mum some of like some of the jackets that have been sold have like mum's cotton in them from when she had because.
19:06
I've just inherited all this kind of stuff, so all of that's felt pretty special. But I think, coming from this like eastern European family, it was sort of like, um, whatever skills you can build up within yourself is something that no one can really take away from you. When they really had to, like, hide who they were and change their names and run away to Germany or go into a different camp and have these different languages so that you could look after yourself and not speak the wrong one in the wrong place and stuff like that, because you'd just be sent off to Siberia or whatever. Like like all of you don't really hear of many Latvians because they were either um, you know, the land was taken over by either Russians or Germans at any point in time up until like 1991.
19:54
So like you really had to, um, yeah, there was not a lot of independence there, so my family was probably quite um kind of scarred in that way. Like you had to build your own skills and stay quiet about who you were and and what you were doing, but no one could take those skills away from you because they were yours, sort of so, um, yeah, I guess that's sort of like yeah, your hands and, yeah, your voice and your, your things, are the things I have to try and keep. Keep with me and, like not you know, sew my hands over, so if I bust,
20:28 - Alexis (Host)
I mean they'd be pretty, they’d have lots of glitter and stuff yeah, yeah so not very good for the rest of any activities.
20:46 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, so um yeah, I guess, not necessarily anything I can't live without,
20:50 - Alexis (Host)
But I think I think, your object being that plant, I think that's a very beautiful thing.
20:53 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, it's been doing pretty well, surprisingly, even like cutting, making more cuttings and shoving them in. They've taken, so it's doing all right.
21:00 - Alexis (Host)
It's very lush yeah it's very lush. If you could give one piece of advice or nugget of advice to another creative, what would it be?
21:15 - Evie (Guest)
I'll still be learning this, but taking the time to to be a bit shit, like I'm going to release stuff that people are going to think is shit, and it probably is shit, and that's fine, because you just want to not get stuck on the perfectionism of something because a painter or whatever doesn't sit there and go, oh, this one has to be perfect. You churn them out and like just get better at making things. Like my first jacket is not for sale because it was so average. But then you improve on everything that you're doing and just not being afraid to make stuff to, to have gone through that process to make it, because it's all worthwhile and and even if you don't do it quite right, like I, when I go to these piano lessons and I haven't done enough work and I'm like pretty mortified at my progress and I'm like a five-year-old with this, trying to read this sheet music but I know that I'm getting better at it because I'm going there and sight reading everything because I haven't done homework.
22:10
So I'm like, oh, my skills are legit. They're small, but they're legit because I'm reading right now.
22:16 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, you're flexing that muscle.
22:17 - Evie (Guest)
Because I didn’t do the homework. Yeah, yeah, so like just letting yourself sort of sit in this uncomfortable space, like it will get better, and maybe it takes some people longer than others and that's still okay. Like it won't. You're never at square one more than once. Like, yeah, you know, um, and I think I sit in that place with like all the singing students that I've got that they feel so frustrated and and whatever else, but it doesn't last forever. So, just to try and let yourself have that time because you will get better at it, yeah, we all probably feel like what we're making is a bit rubbish sometimes?
22:54 - Alexis (Host)
For sure, but we have to. What does Ed Sheeran says you've got to run the tap. You've got to run the tap bad songs to get to the good ones yeah.
23:07 - Evie (Guest)
And you can write 100 and release seven. Yeah, that's fine, yeah, that's totally fine. And then, like because I've got this quote up on my wall, I watch this TED Talk. Her name's Sue Austin, she's in a wheelchair and she goes underwater and it's this like jet sort of thing and she just said that she would, um, be so outrageous in her wheelchair and what she would do with it and make art out of it because no one could go. Oh my god, you're in a wheelchair. Like, give her any kind of. She felt that it was. It was a restrictive kind of view on being in a wheelchair and she's like fuck, no, I'm like she's in scuba gear and like got this jet thing behind her and she said um, I'll read.
23:47
“An arts practice can remake one's identity by transforming preconception” and this is by like doing re-envisioning the familiar, so like you've got some kind of familiar object but you're doing something completely out of the box with it that people don't have any kind of thing to relate it back to.
24:07 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, they don't have anything a benchmark for it.
24:09 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, so that's what I really liked with this like whole wearable art thing. If you're doing something so kind of strange or a bit out of the box, then you're kind of like making this new-ish thing, um, and I mean, so far it's only tinsel jackets, but it's just getting a bit more, um, permission for yourself to do something a bit more outrageous than you normally would. Yeah, which is what also feels like an important thing to do.
24:38 - Alexis (Host)
100% is an important thing to do, so good yeah so good, yeah, if someone wanted to do what you do, any of the things that you do, all of the things that you do. Uh, have you got any resources that you would recommend for someone to develop their creative process?
25:01 - Evie (Guest)
Um, resources, I, I, I really struggled to sit and watch things online but like I would probably say to be looking at things like I don't know, even like YouTube and stuff for things to do with Ableton or because I went down like expensive routes and like doing like actual study and taking chunks of time out to do that which, um, feels like a bit of a luxury.
25:34
It is a stressor, but it feels like a bit of a luxury thing that maybe people can't go and do that, but just like anywhere you can collect it from. I remember just having to watch a video because I couldn't ask mum how to rethread this sewing machine when I got it out, like I just needed to find just one little piece. And then now I do that completely without thinking. But even to find that in a video somewhere ages ago, even if it's three minutes and it took me like re-watching it a few times and stuff, just that one day it all does build and compound and stuff too, so there might be like a little free course or like for sewing, there's an amazing woman in Norwood who like it's it was very, um, it wasn't very expensive lessons and she's like such a humongous wealth of knowledge, like and so lovely um helped me to learn how to attach a zip properly, or like do darts properly, and I was like oh god.
26:31
I've been, yeah, like I might not do some things properly because I'm not formally trained in certain things, but it kind of doesn't matter. So any bits of wisdom you get from people I feel like is really valuable, even if it feels like a bit of a mishmash by the time you put it together.
26:50 - Alexis (Host)
But we're all just, we're compiling all of it for our own good yeah
26:58 - Evie (Guest)
And I don't think you have to be like, lots of people are self-taught in lots of different ways anyway, yes, so, um, I think that's totally valid and and a great way to do things anyway now. Like all of the sewing stuff is is self-taught. I'm surprised that I listened to my mum. So I think I think just anywhere you can find it like there's so much online and and so many people you could ask, even if you find someone that you love, like even on any social media and stuff, and just watching what they do yeah. Yeah, I don't know, and like anything that I do is still all like muscles and stuff. Like one of the songs I did God, I can't even think of it now. But one of the songs I released, the vocals are on a phone and it's not the greatest piece of music ever, but all the vocals were recorded on a phone, all the film clip was done with a projector and it was all like from Pexels, like free to download video and stuff.
27:55
So it was like meant to be a thing that literally anyone could do or make. I think I used um AI to master it and stuff like just I just chucked it as up as like an experiment sort of thing, yeah. So, um, yeah, I think anything that I'm doing, anyone could definitely do so I think,
28:15 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I love it. One last question if you could pick anyone to come on this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why?
28:26 - Evie (Guest)
I'm gonna say Sophie Head, because I love her um.
28:32 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, I love her too. She's amazing.
28:34 - Evie (Guest)
Yeah, she's just got a really passionate vibe and I think she's got a lot to share. I feel like she would be very modest but she'll kind of like turn her hand to anything and like totally pull it off. Like Tipsy Twain won, like fringe awards and sold out shows. It was like something they come up with on a New Years Eve together. So yeah, I would say Sophie
29:04 - Alexis (Host)
Beautiful. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
29:08 - Evie (Guest)
My pleasure
29:10 - Alexis (Host)
So lovely chatting with you.
-
In this episode, Alexis welcomes the talented Natalia, an artist and psychologist whose passion for creativity knows no bounds.
Following her artistic journey, from the enchanting vistas of the Pilbara that sparked her solo exhibition, to navigating the delicate balance of her roles as both therapist and artist, Natalia shares invaluable insights and experiences as a creative herself. She places great emphasis on the value of community, highlighting the importance of actively engaging with fellow creatives, both in person and through digital channels, as each individual has something different to contribute.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Natalia on instagram @nataliafidyka
This episode was recorded on 24 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples.We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Creative references from Natalia:
Books; Rick Rubin - The Creative Act, Holly Ringland - The House That Joy Built
Online Courses: Flora Bowley https://florabowley.com/online-learning/
Course: The Life Cycle of a Creative Spark http://www.nataliafidyka.com/creative-spark.html
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—---------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
00:49
Natalia, thank you so much for coming through the Creative Door or being on the podcast Through The Creative Door. I'm so excited to have you.
00:58 - Natalia (Guest)
Thanks for having me.
01:00 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my goodness, I heard your name actually through a previous guest on Through The Creative Door, Millie Taylor, who had raving reviews about you, not only about you as an artist and the phenomenal body of work that you do, but also she talked about how she went to one of your workshops and just got so much value add from that, and she was quoting you on the podcast, which was very lovely. So for those that are listening, I will be sharing those details for that workshop in the show notes, so watch this space, but also not only. I mean, we're multifaceted humans. You are a phenomenal artist I've still got you on socials, but you're also a psychologist as well, which is bloody amazing, yeah yeah, and a lot, I'm sure a lot.
02:00 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, it's amazing. I love it, love them both.
02:02 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah. So I guess this question that I'm going to ask first more so as an artist, but maybe it is about how you intertwine with your other job as well. But what does the creative space mean to you?
02:20 - Natalia (Guest)
Good question. You know, I don't think anybody has ever asked me that before.
02:25 - Alexis (Host)
I find that very hard to believe. Only because I would have thought that that would be because you talk about creative spark so much.
02:36 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, well, okay, so let's see if I can try and answer it. So, creative space is, I think, a a place, but it's also a mindset, which I think you suggested that, um, in your earlier questions and I really liked the idea of the mindset is actually probably the most important thing for creating the creative space and I would say the mindset for that is entering into the space, whether it's the kitchen bench like you saw the chaos on my kitchen bench because it's been so hot in Perth I can't go into my studio.
03:18 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, just for those listening off mic. We made a cup of tea in the kitchen and we needed to just move some of the paints off the kitchen bench just so I can find a little spot for my coffee. It's okay, makeshift, makeshift while there's a yeah, it's a heat wave in Perth at the moment.
03:48 - Natalia (Guest)
Actually you've reminded me that is something I do talk about, about having micro studios. Oh my god, I'm gonna be rambling. So let me go back to what I started, and that is the attitude that we turn up to any creative space is is really important, and for me that is turning up without a intention. As soon as I sort of go in like I'm going to create this piece of work, it ends up being a shit show. So turning up and just starting with, like letting myself get in gently and I do that by just doing whatever I feel like, even if it's just doing lines with a piece of charcoal or just colour swatching, like whatever it takes to get me in, and then the creative flow kind of takes off. And then I'm running and that's been very helpful for me and having micro studios sprinkled around my house.
04:38
So I've got a big studio in the garage and that's where I have my little workshops, that's where I do all my big pieces of work. But sometimes it's too hot or there's people banging and building houses or you know whatever it is that's going on, or it's just simply too far, like I know that sounds, I mean, you know, terrible, but that going out my back door and opening the roller sometimes feels like it's too much, yeah. So I've got little micro studios sprinkled around the house and that's just like a few journals, some paints and pencils and it's there so that nothing gets in the way there. The less excuses and reasons for me to paint, the better, and proximity and immediacy is one of those things that's really important to me.
05:36 - Alexis (Host)
A friend of mine used to say scattering musical instruments around the house was the best way, because you could just, instead of having to unpack a guitar from a case, you could just pick it up and play a couple of little bars, put it back down. Exactly, yeah, I think that's probably the same right?
05:54 - Natalia (Guest)
Exactly it. I used to live with a beautiful creative Sharoni and when she moved in I was like, so can we turn the kitchen, like dining table, into an art space? She was like, yeah, and so again, like you know we had, she had her half of the table and I had my half of the table and it was just there. And we'd wake up in the morning and often find one or the other just kind of doodling.
06:18 - Alexis (Host)
You've been an artist for such a long time and will continue to be, yeah, so this is probably a difficult question to answer, but is there a piece of work or a body of work that you are proud of creating?
06:36 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah.
06:37 - Alexis (Host)
And how did it come about?
06:53 - Natalia (Guest)
Over covid, I ended up traveling up north a lot up to the Pilbara and I went up with a friend once and then I think I went up by myself and then I went up another time with Banji
07:05 - Alexis (Host)
For those listening, Banji's this beautiful dog that's in this beautiful space with us.
07:11 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, little therapy dog and I had the privilege of spending some time with an Indigenous man up there and he took me to some really wild and special places and he gave me permission to collect some ochre and some rocks and when I came back I started making paint out of it. So I just crush it up and mix it with a bit of like an acrylic medium.
07:47 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah.
07:48 - Natalia (Guest)
And I ended up just making an exhibition Like I, just my first solo exhibition. I just locked and loaded it, didn't think about it too much, and then I just worked with all that inspiration and some of the pieces were really beautiful. I mean, all of them were cool, but the ones that were the most popular had the ochre in it, so, whether you could even see it, there's just some energy in the work that people could feel. And the exhibition was called Oasis because all through the Pilbara there's little oases. You know it's like red rock desert. You come down all these like stone roads and then suddenly it's like palm trees and ice cold water and it was just amazing.
08:41 - Alexis (Host)
So spectacular places, incredible, I mean obviously in the world. But like W.A has some gems, we have gems.
08:50 - Natalia (Guest)
Oh yeah, we have so many gems and I haven't even touched the surface yes, I mean, I just found a cool place in Riverton oh really, yeah. I took banjo for a walk this morning, for a swim, and it was the most stunning river and I've never been there. And I just found a beautiful gallery space in South Freo Early Work Gallery Amazing and they supported the whole process and it was just amazing.
09:16 - Alexis (Host)
Congratulations, that sounds so beautiful.
09:18 - Natalia (Guest)
It was stunning. Thank you.
09:19 - Alexis (Host)
On the opposite side of something to be proud of, have you found anything that's challenged your creativity, and what do you think the major lesson, if there is one?
09:38 - Natalia (Guest)
The things that I struggle the most with. It's pivoting between being a therapist and being a creative, and not that that is actually that different, but running the two, trying to run the two businesses. It's a lot of code switching and it feels like it would be easier if I could streamline everything into one. Sure, but I don't know if that will ever happen, because I love lots of things all the time, so my energy gets split over a lot of things and I'm coming to realise that organisation is helpful for that.
10:25 - Natalia (Guest)
That's a new concept for me, I'm not known as a very organised person and you saw my kitchen benchtop. So yeah, I think that can be challenging sometimes and, like social media, you know it's such a love-hate thing. It's such a love-hate a love hate thing. Like I meet the most amazing people like you, and I've made some artist friends that I've never met in real life, it's incredible, um, but trying to work out the whole thing in post and and market and sell so you can keep moving, it's a lot
11:04 - Alexis (Host)
And it never feels like it ends.
11:07
Because it's always changing right. Yeah, like it's they're. They're always changing something, or you know the market gets saturated in this and so then people are bored of being sold to like that. So we go try new things, and so I think it's, I think it's mentally organizing myself is probably the hardest thing.
11:30 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I can empathize with that. I mean, it's small business at the end of the day and you have to wear all of those hats. It's really hard and you are your product. You know you're the face of the product whether that be either of the hats that you wear.
11:52 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah totally. Yeah, it didn't even occur to me. But you're right, all the things like the graphic design and the content creation and the emails and.
12:01 - Alexis (Host)
I'm going to wear my PA hat today. This afternoon I'm going to wear my manager hat and then get an accountant hat.
12:14 - Natalia (Guest)
Exactly, but you know what? Yeah, and that's a challenge. But it's also like how cool is it that we can do that? I was born in the 80s. If I wanted to have a website, I would have had to like get somebody to do that for me for thousands of dollars. Graphic design, like I couldn't have done any of that. And now I can do it all.
12:31 - Alexis (Host)
That is a wonderful thing about technology is that it does. It's got smaller and more accessible and more cost effective, which means that you can do it all yourself in some way. But yeah, and then it's also that you can, which means that should I yes, I don't know. Sometimes I wonder if I should just outsource a lot of things.
12:53 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, which is something that I'm ready to do. Yeah, okay, and I have somebody fantastic I don't know if I can mention her name Krystal Hudson. She's doing my new Kajabi website. Oh
13:09 - Alexis (Host)
Might get some more clientele. When you're creating, is there an object or something that you can't live without when you're creating?
13:37 - Natalia (Guest)
It's kind of a ritual that has an object. It's not as profound as you might. It's a cup for my coffee. And it's Amy McNee. She's like a creativity coach and she doesn't do merch anymore, but when she did and I saw this cup, I was like I have to have that cup and it's because it's a giant cup. It's not like this cup, it's like twice the size of this cup, because my morning coffee is huge. It's a bucket. And on it on it it says “we need your art”, like handwritten, like black, and it's like every morning, because I paint in the morning mainly, um, and it's just make the coffee, get the coffee cup, sit down, and it's there and it's constantly reminding me
14:30 - Alexis (Host)
oh, I love that. It's cool, that's so great. I wonder if you had one piece of advice or a nugget advice. If you could give that to another creative, what would it be?
14:52 - Natalia (Guest)
It would be to always listen to your, I call it the creative spark, but it could be the breadcrumbs, like what you're interested in, what your hunch is, because it's usually not usually it's. It's always the right way, because that's coming from inside you and it's like if you're interested in something or if you want to do like, spray pink over blue or whatever it is that you want, that impulse is coming from you and sometimes we judge it and we go, oh I, I couldn't possibly do that, that's weird or that's not enough, or what would people think if I do that thing, it's like that thing is your style, your soul print, it's your intuition. It's all you ever need to be really listening to in the creative process.
15:43 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. I love when I hear people's little nuggets of advice, because it always just fills my cup. Every time I'm like, yes, yes, Alexis, remember this.
15:56 - Natalia (Guest)
It's simple, right, oh, but it's so complex because, as humans, we have so many interruptions to following our intuition, like through the entire creative process, you know. It's like where do I start? What am I interested in? Does it look good enough? It's like you've got so many like inbuilt judgments and um limiting beliefs and all this sort of stuff that gets in the way of doing something as simple as following my joy.
16:28 - Alexis (Host)
and it's true, we do, there's all these external factors coming in. We always need to be able to come back to self, to being like what is authentic and true.
16:41 - Natalia (Guest)
That's inside, yeah, it's in my body. Yeah, it's not even in my head. That's all like conditioning belief systems. So what feels good in in the heart? You know like sometimes when I'm painting and it's like right on literally, I feel like euphoric, it's like a drug when you're in flow with the work and what you want to create.
17:11 - Alexis (Host)
Such a beautiful space, such a beautiful energy. So good.
17:13 - Natalia (Guest)
It’s joy, yeah, it's, and it's um, like you can lose sense of yourself, and I think that's one of the components of being in the flow is that you're no longer self-aware, but you're kind of like just floating in bliss
17:28 - Alexis (Host)
eah, there for the ride. If anyone wanted to take a leaf out of your book and do what you do, is there any resources or books or references or things that you would suggest?
17:45 - Natalia (Guest)
Yes, I have two. One is the artist who brought me back. Oh, I have so many actually. Okay, I got three. Flora Bowley she's an Oregon painter. She's been painting, doing I think she was like the first artist who did an online course oh, wow, yeah, she's beautiful and she does like intuitive art classes. So she got me back in. I think in my late 20s, after studying, I sort of kind of fell away, kind of fell away, so she got me back in. And then Rick Rubin has written an incredible book called the creative act. It's all about the creative process. And lastly but um, it's Holly Ringland has written a book called That House That Joy Built. She's incredible. You're going to fall in love with her. Oh, yes, and that is about from what I've read a little bit is it's about why we need to move through fear to create and that joy is a really good reason to create.
19:07 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I love that.
19:08 - Natalia (Guest)
Yeah, so they're my three.
19:12 - Alexis (Host)
What wonderful suggestions. Put them all in the show notes for everyone. Last question, if you could hear anyone else come on to the podcast and answer these questions, who would it be?
19:26 - Natalia (Guest)
The person I have in mind is actually, I think, in South Australia, and where is she? Victoria, maybe she's in New South Wales? Her name's Holly Eva and she is quite a prolific artist and she does beautiful, colourful abstracts of like flowers and women. But the reason why I'd love to hear about her she has nailed like creative flow. She has made a business out of her art. Makes it look easy I'm sure it's not and she is so supportive of her creative peers like her and I've never met, but she reached out to me and just said some beautiful things about some of my work, really encouraged me through a particular phase, answered some questions that I had. She's just a really generous, creative, oh beautiful. And just wanted to shout out to Holly because she's been wonderful.
20:34 - Alexis (Host)
How good is community?
20:37 - Natalia (Guest)
I love it when people it's a funny thing, they're like gatekeeping of like information and I'm sure you know there's a time and a place for it. But I really value, like, if you, if you give them a slide in my dms and you want to ask me something, I'll answer it yeah and because I've had so many people do that for me and it's just been so helpful and you feel so much more supported and less alone. So yeah, I like that kind of world.
21:08 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, and I think we do live in, myself, as a creative, I feel like I live in a space like that where you just have to ask yeah. Natalia, thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door. It's been so lovely chatting with you.
21:25 - Natalia (Guest)
It was my pleasure, Alexis, beautiful chat.
-
Get set for a shot of inspiration as multi-instrumentalist and vibe creator Mark Turner links up with Alexis on this juicy episode. They dive headfirst into a lively chat, with Mark sharing personal insights and anecdotes that offer a sneak peek into the dynamic world of his creative process. From his early days in session work to his original projects, Mark dishes on the importance of trying everything you can and being okay with the outcome, because there is bound to be another project on the horizon.
Whether you're a musician, artist, or just someone who loves creating good vibes in your own way, this episode is bound to ignite your creative spark and reassure you that you're not alone on the wild journey of creativity.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Mark on instagram @markturnermusic
This episode was recorded on 23 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—---------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
Hello Mark Turner
00:50 - Mark (Guest)
Hello Alexis Naylor
00:51 - Alexis (Host)
How are you doing?
00:54 - Mark (Guest)
I'm lovely, it's a busy time, but here we are.
00:58 - Alexis (Host)
Well, thank you for coming and chatting to me through the Creative Door.
01:03 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, the door is wide open.
01:04 - Alexis (Host)
The door is wide open. Indeed, for those who don't know you, you are a very talented bear, does lots of things, multi-instrumentalist and doing recording things and singing things and tootie-tootie on the saxophones.
01:21 - Mark (Guest)
Jack of all trades. Well that's the aim, jack, of all trades. Yes, well, that's the aim. That's the aim. I do the things that I enjoy, you do and try to do. It helps my ADHD brain. It's self-diagnosed.
01:37 - Alexis (Host)
So, considering that you do so many different creative outlets, it's probably a hard question to ask. But what does the creative space mean to you?
01:50 - Mark (Guest)
Well, great question, and it's ever evolving, Alexis.. Creative space I mean it's like a space can be a hotel room or a toilet or a car or, in some cases, your van when I've been in it. Long drives, when you're just by yourself and you're left with complete creative freedom. But also those spaces change, like one of the biggest things I always wanted was a creative space and then I got it and I used it a lot and then, you know, circumstances change and then the neighbour next door was in my creative space workshop. The neighbour next door started living there so I couldn't be creative, like when I was creative. I felt very exposed. So for me, creative spaces are vulnerable spaces where I feel safe to explore and try ideas and see where the world takes me.
02:40 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, so that's obviously changed and evolved over time.
02:45 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, it's fully evolved and it's just a, it's just a lovely, it’s a lovely thing to be able to have one and also to be able to especially as a travelling musician and a travelling a lot I love travel so to be able to create a creative space or be somewhere and find that rhythm is cool, I really enjoy that. I feel very fortunate to have that ability to you know set up and be creative where I need to be.
03:14 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting because I think, well, maybe I'm projecting, but a lot of us would strive to have a studio or a creative space in that sense yeah, and then, when you get it, perhaps, like you said, definitely use it quite a lot, but then, like you, take it for granted almost.
03:34 - Mark (Guest)
Absolutely, I mean it's funny because I've had so that the space where questioning is it kind of fell about by accident. I was looking for somewhere to hold my, and harness my creativity, and it's the kind of thing. When I found it I was like this is I've found the gold mine.
03:50
And it is, it is it is the gold mine and it was. It was when those circumstances changed, maybe four years into having it where there was, you know, the neighbour situation. It changed the silver lining for me, but then I've kept it because it's still. I know that the gold is there. So I feel extremely lucky to have that space and a space that I can call mine to create in. I think if anyone can find a way to make a space that is theirs, it's one of the most joyous things. But I had an experience recently and I believe they may be on your podcast. You might have to edit this out, but, Daine, has Daine been on your podcast?
04:32
No, Cut cut paste.
04:35 - Alexis (Host)
Are you telling me that I should have him on the podcast?
04:39 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, he's a brilliant brain yeah, um, so Daine was in there recording recently and he came and he dropped the key back to me and he's like mate, that place is magic and it reinvigorated me, because a space is only as magical as it feels for you. So to see him experience that same magic that I felt, without any of the emotions being shifted because of past experience, it was just like that, is awesome and I love that he felt that and it reminded me of the magic that a place or a venue or a situation can feel. But it's okay to let things change and for that to shift.
05:15 - Alexis (Host)
You're like, oh, I want to go back in there, I want to experience the thing.
05:18 - Mark (Guest)
Absolutely. It was that kind of wow, this is actually a vibe. So I was like, wow.
05:24 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious. I mean, you have been involved in so many ensembles. You have released lots of different music with different people. You've done lots of different projects. You've also been a videographer. Like you have been involved in so many things creative.
05:48 - Mark (Guest)
Jack hammer of all jacks.
05:49 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, but I guess it's a hard question to ask Is there something that you're most proud of or is there a body of work? I know that seems like a real-loaded question, right?
06:03 - Mark (Guest)
Is there something that I'm proud of? I'm constantly proud of, I'm constantly proud of everything that I've created. So, like I'm, I see things and I'm like, oh, I'm proud of that. I look back and reminisce and I'm super proud of the (whether it be music) or all of it.
06:18
Yeah, I mean, uh, the thing that came to my mind recently was a Christmas album I did with Steve Hensby, and so Christmas is around the corner. I was like, oh yeah, I made a Christmas album once and I listened to the song. I was like God, it was just such a beautiful time and memory. And then Sam Timmerman, who is our dear friend, reshared a story of when we all lived together and we did some amazing things in COVID and it's like, wow, I'm so proud of what we achieved there. Jessie Gordon and myself just released an album and I'm super proud of that and it's just little things that I'm like along the journey you've just got to kind of like, there's moments like pat yourself on the back and go that was great, you did good, keep going, it's okay.
07:00 - Alexis (Host)
And I don't know about you, but, and I don't know about you. But I find it's hard to do that sometimes. And it actually is a real conscious effort. Once you've finished a project, released it, put it out to the world. Well, this is how I feel anyway to actually take a minute and be like actually, yeah, I did a thing, yeah because you're so caught up, because you're caught on to the next thing, moving on to the next thing
07:25 - Mark (Guest)
And that is hard because you just, especially for my brain I'm here, there and everywhere, so to stop and take stock is a challenge, but yeah, I'm just stoked that I get to, I guess at the core of it is like how cool is it that we can create stuff in our lives and share them with others?
07:47 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah.
07:48 - Mark (Guest)
So that to me is I'm super. I guess at the core of it I'm proud to have a body of life that I get to share with others who also enjoy it. So you know, it's not just I guess it's hard to pinpoint any one thing, it's all of the bits.
08:03 - Alexis (Host)
All of the bits in all of the things. Yeah, on the flip side of something proud, do you think that there's something that's challenged your creativity and if so, what was the major lesson?
08:18 - Mark (Guest)
Something that challenged my creativity. The first thing that comes to my brain is remembering COVID as an entity and then coming back out of COVID, because you and I, Alexis, had a very different COVID to most people, where most people went quite inside and quiet and found their own space and did what they did we want. We turned our house into essentially a nightclub slash music venue, which I'm incredibly proud of.
08:51
But it was the kind of thing where it became this creative, uh, mega space and all nothing was off limits. So that to me, was the first time. I was like whoa. I haven't felt freedom like this in years. So it was this really like no one was. I didn't have to be, and I guess in a lot of ways, I don't have to be accountable. I'm accountable for every decision I make, but in that moment I was in control of every decision that I was making for me and us musically.
09:19
And then, when the world switched back on in Perth specifically, it was so intense with the amount of work we had, the amount of well, we just had to get back on with it, because that's what I was programmed to do and it was a really challenging mindset to go. But you had the best time of your life in this window of creativity and you've now, basically, you were in neutral, the engine was going, everything was cool and then in COVID, we switched the engine off and relaxed and now not only is the engine on, we're like on sixth gear. Full speed ahead.
09:55
We're on the Kwinana Freeway, pelting down to somewhere who knows.
10:01 - Alexis (Host)
Wait, surely there's a faster..
10:05 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, maybe Brand Highway, who knows? Yeah, Kwinana Freeway is definitely not the right analogy, but you know what I mean Great Southern Road or something, caning it down the freeway and it's like whoa, that was hard because I was like, oh, I am burning myself at every candle. I basically got six candles, which I also do enjoy, but it’s alot.
10:28
So I was just like whoa, this is crazy, crazy, so I don't know that, that to me was challenging, and it's still a challenge to consider what that looks like
10:40 - Alexis (Host)
what do you think the major lesson is there, though, like how do you come through from that?
10:43
Well, I'm not learning from that. I'm not listening to my own heart, but I guess the lesson is is to allow space for creativity, and it's something that that I've tried to do with Jessie in terms of our writing and our time. We create time to be creative and just booking in me time, which is so hard to do, it's so hard to dedicate time for you, for yourself. So, as I sit here preaching about something that I don't do, I'm going to analyze that and think more about my life choices but ultimately, it's a balance right it's all just a balance.
11:23
I love everything that I get to do, so I love the work that I get to do. It's so varied and exciting, but there is also, the challenge is finding the balance to be me and produce my own me to the world that they can see. Um, but I guess you know, yeah, exactly what I said. There's me in everything that I'm currently doing, but there's also the other me that wants to maybe create and do more freedom-based things that we had in that period.
11:56 - Alexis (Host)
You definitely get I don't want to say pigeonholed, but like it's easy when we're already in those lanes to then just keep going down those paths without re-imagining. It takes a lot of effort to reimagine something, I think.
12:11 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah, absolutely, and it's also. I mean, we've got to earn money, at the end of the day, you've got to exist, and that, to me, is the core of it, like, okay, we've got to just do that, but then also there's, you know, we've got to make space for all these things.
12:27 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, to let the creativity out. Let it out, let it out.
12:30 - Mark (Guest)
Let it out, be free.
12:36 - Alexis (Host)
Is there any object or possession that you can't live without when you're creating. Like something sentimental or something like super..
12:49 - Mark (Guest)
Oh yeah, they're all tools. Yeah, I mean my saxophone's pretty sentimental, but even if someone told me they melted it down into a cupcake or something, or like a teacup, I'd be like, oh that's really weird, why would you do that? And then I'd just go and find another saxophone.
13:04 - Alexis (Host)
That was my saxophone, but okay, yeah, why'd you do that?
13:07 - Mark (Guest)
I love my acoustic and electric guitar, but you know they're wood and I'm very attached to them and they're mine, but at the end of the day it's a tool that helps me create and be. I reckon I'd be lost without my friendships. I think that is the things that you can't, that would be, they're probably the most important things.
13:31 - Alexis (Host)
Okay.
13:31 - Mark (Guest)
The things that if I lost those I'd be pretty sad. But for me, everything I mean you know data. Data is make sure you back up your content in three places, or those that doesn't exist, that you know, but then if you've got it three places, it does exist, so it's fine. But data you know, like memories, content, that those are the things that once you've created something.
13:58 - Alexis (Host)
Making sure you've got it everywhere.
13:59 - Mark (Guest)
Make sure you don't lose it. But yeah, there's nothing that springs to like, if the house was burning right now and I had to grab something, I mean I'd grab my laptop because it's got all the data on it. The laptop is just a tool. I'd probably grab my saxophone and my acoustic and my electric guitar, my memory box. Oh God, you, just you know. These are the order of.
14:19 - Alexis (Host)
You need a container to take all the things before the fire gets in.
14:27 - Mark (Guest)
Well, I bought fireproof boxes, so everything is hopefully nothing, touch wood. No pun intended about the wood, but yeah, I mean, I love my vinyl collection. That would be really hard to replace. There's a lot there and it's come from all over the world. But yeah, nothing that, I'm just trying to think what's in there? No, it's all just stuff. But I love stuff.
14:44 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, but you can create you can start again.
14:50 - Mark (Guest)
I mean, I had a moment the other day my friend who I'm teaching I gave a few lessons to on the saxophone and her name is Fernanda and she's moved down south and she's just starting her musical journey and I had a spare keyboard piano controller. I was like, you should take this. And she's like Mark, my world has exploded, everything has changed and it's like one thing that I didn't even use anymore, like I've got pianos everywhere. I just and for her it's like changed her life and it's just one little thing, it’s like, you know, they're just tools to help you get to unlock doors no, also lso, maybe this piano accordion. I got that when I was a kid. I'd be pretty sad if I lost that
15:36 - Alexis (Host)
As in, someone gifted it to you?
15:37 - Mark (Guest)
Well, no I purchased it, it was one of my first instruments that I was learning
15:43 - Alexis (Host)
oh, really, yeah, but I I how old were you?
15:46 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, 10, 11.
15:47 - Alexis (Host)
And that was what you chose at 10?
15:48 - Mark (Guest)
Well, I chose the piano. I wanted to be a rock and roll piano-er, but I was pretty bad at it. I was pretty shit at piano.
15:57
But the guy who taught me also learned piano accordion. So we yeah, that was I had to get, and my grandfather played piano accordion, so I started on his and then we found this one and then, you know, hit 12 and found the saxophone and then put the piano accordion back in its case. But I've ended up using it a few times recently in recordings. And you know, weird, I played in a Billy Joel tribute band. That was weird. Yeah, it is vibe, but you know, sentimentality is. Yeah, that's a great question. I like it. I take my friends with me. If the house is burning, you and me go to the pub. After we put the fire out.
16:36 - Alexis (Host)
eah, yeah, yeah, we'll try it at least. If you could give one piece of advice, one nugget of gold to another creative. What would it be?
16:54 - Mark (Guest)
Oh God, there's so many, Mum always said everything in moderation.
16:57 - Mark (Guest)
But, that's not advice. No, the first thing that pops into my head is it's fine, it doesn't, there's, like whatever happens will happen and whatever the journey is, it's going to be fine. And I think I get so caught up worrying. I remember when I was 30, I was like I'm done, my time's over. I was 35. I'm like I'm done. I'm 35. Who cares? No one's going care and I'm like what happens, my hair goes gray and I lose them. Who cares? It doesn't matter. Like everyone's gonna be with you on the journey and no one goes to experience art to have a bad time. Everyone always goes out to have a good time.
17:35
So, like, take the pressure off yourself and it will work out and it's so hard to, and I mean this is I'm internalizing my feedback, saying it doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter If you, if you do you know, we start a project, you don't finish it. It doesn't matter, it's okay,
17:52 - Alexis (Host)
It's also okay to pick it back up years later.
17:58 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah. It's, but it's, it's. It's so internally hard to. There's just so much pressure in this world and my favourite thing is when I meet someone and I can just tell that their steam valve is off. There's no more steam, they're just relaxed. I'm like, oh, that looks like a nice time. Where's my steam valve? Maybe it's in my butthole.
18:20 - Alexis (Host)
How do I turn it off?
18:21 - Mark (Guest)
How do I release all this steam? How do I do it? But that's also part of what makes me me, so I wouldn't change that part of it. But I think it's just relaxing in the journey and it's like you can get caught up on so many parts of this life and it's like the journey is the part that is the best bit, the adventure, and it doesn't matter, just keep going, keep enjoying, keep doing whatever it is, and if it doesn't work, it's fine.
18:48 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, try something else yeah.
18:51 - Mark (Guest)
And, at the end of the day, whatever you've done and whatever you've created, it's amazing. Even if it's just your mum that likes it, that's fine. My mum does like it.
19:01 - Alexis (Host)
I was just about to say how great are mums my mum always likes it too,
19:26 - Mark (Guest)
Yeah so we're very, very lucky,
19:10 - Alexis (Host)
We are very lucky to do what we do. Would you have any advice on like resources or books or I don't know podcasts. Any references if someone wanted to, I don't know do what you do yeah.
19:29 - Mark (Guest)
Well, if you do want to do what I do.
19:33
Well, I mean, I'm an interesting case study in that I struggle with certain kinds of education. I've taught myself most of the things I know, but, you know, the biggest lesson that I've ever learned is by watching others and being around people who are very good at what we do. I'll never forget being in a room I don't know just started learning. I learned guitar when I was 14. And I think when I joined Adam Hall's band I was 21. And he asked me, invited me, to go on tour with a guy called Big Jay McNeely, who is no longer with us. But he was this killer honk and sax. He was like the definition of honk and sax, Like he was this old cat. He had his first hit in 1949, and Adam had brought him over to tour Australia. And we're sitting in the hotel room. I've just met Big Jay, he's sitting on the bed with his saxophone that's cut, painted fluoro orange. I'm like who is this dude?
And he puts the sacks to his mouth and he honks a note louder than uh, if the heavens opened up and a saxophone appeared and started playing. It was louder than that and all of us in the room, except Adam, who'd heard him before like whoa, holy shit, balls like. This guy played so loud and it was so clear and so much passion in one note. I was like, oh my, we are serious. And so we started playing and I was playing guitar and he's and, and this Big J just knew what he wanted. He's like to the dominant, go to the dominant man. I was like what is a dominant? I wouldn't know a dominant if it slapped me in the face and I was like I don't know and Adam's like, just go to the C.
He was helping me. I was like I don't know what this means.
21:15 - Mark (Guest)
And so we're playing and Big J was just saying things and Adam was helping me. It was amazing, but it was one of those moments like you've got to learn fast there's, you've got to get your butt into gear, and it was one of those moments like I learned more in a 40 minute rehearsal than I did in the last six years of playing guitar.
21:31
The six years had led to that moment for sure it had the, but it was, it was in that moment that my ass got handed to me and it was in that moment and I I there are vivid moments of my life. I remember recording my first ever. I was playing drums, recording and Kieran Candores, I was 17. I was playing with an ensemble. We were making a Christmas album. I don't know why I can't drink Christmas albums, but I was 17.
21:55
I remember Kieran setting up the mics on my drum kit and he's an incredible engineer here in Perth and he put these mics in place and I was watching him and I was like, why did you do that? Why did you do that? And he was so kind, he told me all this information and I went out. It was the next five years. I bought every single mic that he put on that drum kit. I learned every single thing that he did and it changed my life. I remember going to watch Trevor Jeller. The first time I saw someone play guitar live, it was Howie Morgan and Trevor Jeller and these guys are so cool. I remember being underage, going to the Universal Bar and just being like, oh my God, that's what I want to do.
22:31
You know it's those moments of like deep connection, watching, sucking every piece of knowledge from that experience and then learning how, like almost reverse engineering, just geeking out, yeah and now we're so lucky to have youtube and you can you can watch, you the people you admire on the internet now, like that, and it's like you can learn this stuff. But getting hands-on with the people that inspire you or that you learn from, is the people that inspire you or that you learn from is, I think, hands down. It happened to me the other week, James Newhouse recorded our Jesse and I's new duo album and we wanted to have him mix it, so I went down and sat with him and it was just like six hours of hang. But I think I learned more in six hours than I have in two years.
23:18 - Mark (Guest)
Same with saxophone. I've been playing sax my whole life. I don't know what I'm doing. I had lessons as a kid. I had one lesson with Matt Stiles, who's one of the lead lecturers at UWA, I think, or WAAPA, and we sat and we had one hour lesson and he kind of was like, just play a scale. And he was like, okay, I see what you're doing, but have you tried doing this? And he said one thing that just changed everything and I was like I'm gonna have to go away for a year and understand what you just said.
23:47
And it took me a year to work on it and it was like it's like little moments like that. All it takes is a little. You know, yeah, 180 degrees, flip it upside down and look at it in a different way, and you're like, holy shit, that changed my life. Um, and for those playing along at home, it was just, you know, open your like, drop your larynx, drop everything and allow the air to just go power through. I was like, whoa, that explains that's why I can't play saxophone. Now I can. Thanks Matt Stiles. You know little things like that. You're like, holy, shit. Blows your brain. You're like, oh, I never thought of that.
24:24 - Alexis (Host)
Love it. One last question. if you could hear anyone answer these questions on the podcast.
24:30 - Mark (Guest)
Who would it be? I, I mean my, the people that I really look up to. Like James Newhouse is a great example. He's such an interesting fellow and so inspiring. I'd love to hear his thoughts on these questions. Yeah, people that I look up to is, find all them and ask them all these questions, because then I can learn more.
24:47 - Alexis (Host)
Big list.
24:49 - Alexis (Host)
My goodness Mark Turner.
24:51 - Mark (Guest)
Alexis.
24:52 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you so much for being here and coming through the creative door.
24:57 - Mark (Guest)
Oh, I enjoyed being in the door of my own house, the creative space of love, arigato gozaimasu. It's been an absolute joy. Bye.
25:10 - Alexis (Host)
Bye.
-
Dive into the dynamic world of creativity with host Alexis Naylor as she sits down with Terry Hart, a Melbourne to Perth producer, mixer, composer and creative writer.
Terry shares his fascinating journey navigating the intricate balance between technical prowess and emotional resonance in creative spaces. From his experience at Melbourne’s Sing Sing Studios to his own space, Terry has spent many years honing his craft as a producer and as a session player and explores the challenges and triumphs of being on both sides.
From the pitfalls of over-reliance on technology to the power of experimentation and authenticity, Terry's wisdom offers a roadmap for unlocking one's creative potential. Talk about inspiring!
Whether you're a seasoned artist or an aspiring creator, this episode of 'Through the Creative Door' promises to inspire and enlighten you, inviting you to embark on your own journey of artistic discovery.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Terry on instagram @maestroman
This episode was recorded on 22 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Creative references from Terry:
Course: The Sound Academy - Simon Moro www.academyofaudio.edu.au
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—---------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
Hello, how you going?
00:52 - Terry (Guest)
I’m good.
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
Nice to have you here
00:58 - Terry (Guest)
Thank for inviting me
01:00 - Alexis (Host)
Thanks for letting me come into your creative space. Yeah, that's all right. I am so chuffed that you said yes to chatting with me because, I mean, I was an admirer of yours from afar before I even met you, before we even got to record and do things together. And then that was many moons ago. And now you're suddenly from the east coast over on the west coast.
01:16 - Terry (Guest)
I came here for you,
01:20 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, stop it! Well, well, now we'll have to book all these things in and we'll have to do lots of projects together. Yes!
01:24 - Terry (Guest)
Can't wait
01:27 - Alexis (Host)
I'm so excited. But thank you so much for coming on through the creative door. I wanted to have a chat to you because one you are just a multi-talented human being and have a brilliant mind and I'm curious, obviously you've graced me with the ability to come into your studio that you have here, but also the assumption that this is the only creative space that you have is probably not correct.
01:53 - Terry (Guest)
Well at the moment kind of is. I'm new to town so this is what I've got.
02:00 - Alexis (Host)
You brought it with you. But what does a creative space mean to you? Do you think?
02:10 - Terry (Guest)
It's a very hard thing to get right and I've worked in lots of different studios over the years and the gear, the bits and pieces it's all great, but they're all tools to do a job. One of the things that a lot of studios fail in is what you're talking about is a creative space, um. One I used to work out a lot in Melbourne was Sing Sing studios and that always felt like a home. Kai and Jude that ran. It felt like like this amazing aunt and uncle and they're always there to take care of you and there was always this really good vibe.
02:38
The rest of it's kind of superfluous if you're not comfortable to to create to make things um, especially when you're recording, because that's a that's a high. Comfortable to to create to make things um, especially when you're recording, because that's a that's a high um stress environment. You know a lot of people have saved for years to have a recording studio for a week. So you have to perform and um I know you've been there you jump on stage. If you're stressed it doesn't work like you really need to be in the right headspace to perform. So having a space that does that and allows you to do that, allows you to get into like uh, you know, like a flow state and really, um, enjoy the creation process, is is it's it's owed a lot more credit than it probably gets credit for so true, though, because I have definitely been in spaces over the years where, yeah, it was.
03:26 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, you just walk in and there's a particular energy and suddenly, yeah, everything that you do is like under a microscope.
03:35 - Terry (Guest)
And that's probably not good. No, like that cold, that sterile thing.
03:41 - Alexis (Host)
And you wonder why you can't perform in a particular. It's like oh, I had this yesterday.
03:49 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I can't do it. Had it yesterday. You've probably played it a hundred times on stage and had it, but, like when it matters, where we at, where's it gone?
03:55 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, no, that's very true. That's very true. I'm curious. I mean, you have worked on so many projects, but you've also done a lot yourself, personally. I wonder and this is such a loaded and difficult question to ask but is there one bit of work or a body of work that you're most proud of today?
04:19 - Alexis (Host)
I can work backwards. I can say I love making music, but I hate making my own music because it's a very lonely process. I like getting to the end. I am so intrigued about this, do tell me more what?
04:29 - Terry (Guest)
I work with bands and I get them in there. I try to give them this experience and they they say they want something and I have to try to figure out exactly what that is and get them there and things will break and things won't go wrong. And I keep that to myself and I figure out how to do that to make sure that they get that really positive experience. So we're talking about like the vibe in the studio, that homely feel and you're always nice and comfortable. I don't get that when I do my own stuff. It's just I'm filled in all the issues and trying to be creative. So I find it really really, really difficult and as far as I know, I'm not alone with that a lot of people who try to do a similar thing. It's a very difficult thing to balance.
05:14 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, that's so true. Do you think that, will you always be having that hat on when you're in the studio doing your own, or could you potentially
05:29 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, I haven't yet. Usually, when I've been doing my own stuff, it's been um after hours and just sort of I've got a bit, I've got a moment, so let's, let's give it a go.
05:39
I hadn't got. I haven't gone to the lengths of sort of investing in that side of things, because there's a saying in my industry you got to decide which side of the glass you're on, and I did make my decision 10, 15 years ago. And, and I love producing music and and living in studios and being up to the wee hours trying to create something. Doesn't mean that I don't want to occasionally just just sneak across to the other side of the glass and see what's going on.
06:08 - Alexis (Host)
Well, that, I'm sure, was your first love.
06:13 - Terry (Guest)
Yes, yeah, that's what. I started off as a session musician. So I was on the other side of the glass playing, you know, piano and guitars and backing vocals and then violins and things like that on records when whatever people needed. That's how I got my foot in the door. But then, yeah, learn to love the rest of it slowly.
06:31 - Alexis (Host)
We've spoken about something that you're proud of, but I also think on the on the flip side of that, do you think that there's been anything that has challenged you in creating or helping create a product with others?
06:46 - Terry (Guest)
Again, there's always technical issues, but it's mostly communication. I think you'd find that most artists don't 100% know what they want and a lot of people see that as like a bad thing. But it's not. It is a like they know what they don't like more to as opposed to what they do. So that makes it a very difficult journey. So communication is always the biggest challenge, to try to figure that out, because it'd be great if you sit in the studio and go, okay, we've got this song, let's do a folk version, let's do a thrash metal version, let's do a, you know, an industrial rock version. Try everything and see which one works. But that's not very practical when it comes down to budgets and things like that. So getting into their heads, with obscure questions, you know I've been mixing for people and I've asked them like, if you were listening to this song, do you think it's orange or blue, like anything like that. It sounds silly but it kind of.
07:44
It makes them think in an abstract form and it gives you something abstract to work from and that stuff can really hel, so communication is really always the challenge in the job because you're trying to translate a vision from nothing, which is it's an endlessly complicated job if you're actually trying to do it by chance.
08:08 - Alexis (Host)
Would you have any advice? Is there things that you, if you could say to someone coming in, like before you come in? Maybe think of this kind of descriptive words or reference tracks.
08:24 - Terry (Guest)
I do often. Yeah, I'll send like a questionnaire, especially if I get, if I get a sense of the project um, certain jobs, I'll sit with the bands in the rehearsal studio and we'll really nut it out. We might be doing that for months by the time we go into the studio, and usually by then and I do say usually, sometimes sometimes not at all, but usually by then we're on the same page. You've got a pretty good idea of what's going on. But otherwise those questions can be really helpful. Also, no musician ever wants to be asked what genre is your music. No artist wants to be asked that.
08:59 - Alexis (Host)
So funny. I hate that question. Why do we all still ask this?
09:02 - Terry (Guest)
Because we don't want to think like we're making something in the box. Otherwise, why would you be an artist? If we wanted to work like in the box, we'd go be a merchant banker and just call it a day.
09:13 - Alexis (Host)
So true, but why do we all still ask that question?
09:17 - Terry (Guest)
That's the thing. It's not about trying to make something like that, it's just like a guide in light. It tells me a lot if you want to make like a uh, independent sounding pop thing like Sia. I know you don't want to be Sia, but if you told me that it would just give me this world of palettes to open up in as far as instruments and things, um, it's just. It's just helping us do the job. So my best piece of advice is when somebody asks you that question, it's not, it's not a blight, it's literally because we're trying to help you.
09:49 - Alexis (Host)
You're like yeah, I'm helping my brothers and sisters out
09:55 - Terry (Guest)
And I'm no better, if somebody asks me what genre my music is, I'll tell them to get out. There's the door.
10:00 - Alexis (Host)
I don't know if this is going to be the right question to ask. We'll see. I feel like you're going to have lots of answers for this one, but is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating?
10:24 - Terry (Guest)
Honestly probably my dog. Yeah, yeah.
10:31 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I mean for those people on the, you know listening. I got a lovely welcome when I came today from your beautiful dog.
10:39 - Terry (Guest)
You're probably still sodden from licks and things like that.
10:45 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, I got all of the kisses. No, I love that. Do you think, especially because you're in this space, in the studio, for long periods of time and working on things for so long, yeah, do you think that is like? I think, like a, not a prerequisite, but a very healthy
11:05 - Terry (Guest)
No, but something like that. It goes back to what we were talking about before with the studios that I've seen at work are not the sterile clean line things, they're the ones that have got that homely feel. Now I've taken my dog to an insane number of sessions and I've seen this little ball of fluff, sort of devour, the negativity in the room, and sometimes there's arguments, sometimes there's confrontations between band members or whomever, and the dog's really, really good at breaking that down and bringing, like it's, a positive vibe in the studio. If you're looking for that, there's not really a better advocate for that. But look, I do. I make music for myself, for others, I work as a novelist, a writer, a fair bit as well. She's the only common denominator and I love having her around like, yeah, whether it has any difference, I don't know.
11:56 - Alexis (Host)
I love that. She's the support dog for everybody. Yeah, exactly.
12:01 - Terry (Guest)
I've seen it work. I swear.
12:02 - Alexis (Host)
What else do you do with your writing?
12:06 - Terry (Guest)
I've been doing creative writing for a good like you know, getting close to 10 years now. I used to write for magazines and things mostly about audio gear and things like that reviews but always had a passion for that, so I've been nutting out of that. I released one novel but I've been working on a bunch and just seeing what I can get to wear at the moment. I just really enjoy the process of that. I released one novel but I'm just I've been working on a bunch and just seeing what I can get to wear at the moment. I just really enjoy the process of that and it's different for me.
12:34
Um, there's a bit of pressure because of what I do. If I wanted to make music, I love making music, but when I make my own it's hard for me to get out of that. That's a whole new Avenue for me. Like I'll admit to you now I do like being creative. I might have a little bit of a soft spot for it, but that's like a nice outlet for me which isn't what I'd call my profession, at least not at the moment.
13:05 - Alexis (Host)
But I think if we've got that little spark of creativity in us, it manifests in so many different ways.
13:11 - Terry (Guest)
Oh, I don't think it matters. Yeah, got that little spark of creativity in us. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, if you, if you, you can, either um tap into that flow state or you can't, but where you take it doesn't matter. Yeah, um, the rest of it's uh, a matter of practicg getting good at whatever you're doing. It, um, yeah, but it's, it's a great, it's a great outlet and allows me to get that uh, to get into that state and uh and also be vulnerable.
13:32
There was a time there was a long time there that I was making records for other people and I did very, very little for myself and it's very easy to get, um, maybe jaded or maybe just a little bit loose sight of what the creative process is. Didn't mean I wasn't good at the job, but what it did mean is it made it hard to sympathize with the artist. So if I have something like that, I can kind of be there, be vulnerable, know what it means to someone when they give you criticism. Um, you know constructive criticism, but still know that that's it still is going to hit you in a certain way because you really are bearing yourself and being very vulnerable and, um, I think doing that on on the side makes me a lot better at at uh, yeah, just listening to what an artist has to say and respecting it, because, um, it can be hard, um to to really be there 100% and sympathise with people you work with, but, yeah, it's helpful for that.
14:34 - Alexis (Host)
But also for yourself, as in it's multifaceted how it gives back and feeds back into you as a creative.
14:42 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely only speaking in a sense of what I do here, but I love doing it.
14:50 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give a nugget or a piece of advice to another creative, what would it be?
14:57 - Terry (Guest)
Oh, that's a hard one, get a dog, I guess.
15:01 - Alexis (Host)
Get a dog. I'll write that down, yeah.
15:04 - Terry (Guest)
The first thing that comes to mind is technology is not your friend and it's made so many things convenient, but it's also really pushed people's heads a little bit out of what's important, and it really is. If you can sit there with an acoustic guitar and make another human being cry with a song you made, that's all that matters. So there's a tendency to want to get into the studio and mess with sounds, and when I say studio, I mean people have.
15:33
it's remarkable what people can do on their laptops you know, but jumping into that too soon and forgetting about the rest of it, because those endless choices have meant that people actually make less choices. Generally, the choices are kind of almost made on their behalf with a lot of the software
15:48 - Alexis (Host)
To try and keep into a particular aesthetic or sound.
15:58 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah things like it can be as simple as tempo. They just oh well, I will start, I'm going to start writing this song and they put their click on and put a drum beat you know, an artificial drum beat down, but then that artificial drum beat won't have swing. So they lose the idea that that song, the way they were playing the acoustic guitar, did have a tiny amount of swing. They don't have a, you know, and so your drummer's not going to hear that and react to that. And suddenly you've written this different song.
16:21
It's so easy to lose the tiny little details that make something special. Um, so cause I, because I see a lot of. I'd have a lot of students when I did a lot of sessions back in Melbourne and they'd say bring a piece of gear up it's just like a program plug-in, say for a compressor or something and they'll mess with the knobs and try to make this sound work, even though it's not really working. And they've got endless different ones that a click of a button, but then they stick on one and get stuck on it.
16:56
Now, when I was working on huge analog studios, I'd listen to something that wasn't right. I'd walk all the way over to the other end of the thing, pull out the wires that had patched it in, plug in new wires and try a new thing, like that was just a habit you had. Yeah, now it's easier to do that today than it's ever been. It's a click of a button and people do it less. So it's kind of. Technology is very good at making people lazy, but you can't be lazy if you want to make really good art.
17:23 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my goodness. That's so true.
17:26 - Terry (Guest)
And you've been in the studio a fair bit, I'm sure you've been in those situations. Have you ever sat there looking for a synth sound to fill in a thing and you're just going through preset after preset after preset just trying to find that sound?
17:38 - Alexis (Host)
Yes.
17:41 - Terry (Guest)
It kind of. At some point you're just like a scene through time. You don't even know what's going on, right, you get that kind of moment where you lose that, yeah, yeah you lose space time context yeah, yeah, and it's overwhelming.
17:54 - Alexis (Host)
And I'll be honest, like I don't have trained ears like you, so like for me, sometimes they all. Then suddenly all just I don't even know where I am. They all sound the same they just start blurring. Yeah, they're all blurring, whereas I think your ears would be far more in tuned for longer to be able to hear the finite difference between but even a lot of times, it just doesn't matter yeah.
18:22 - Terry (Guest)
The big thing: is you're not making music to make it to like, you're not writing a song to find the perfect canvas for a perfect synth sound. You're looking for a synth sound to express a certain emotional state. That's all music is. It's a cathartic experience. People listen to it to feel something. So if you start listening to those synths and saying which one sounds like, my partner just left me. If that's what your song is about, you know it sounds. But um, that's a big part of what, what, what happens in these places there's. You get a bunch of sounds together. There's a little bit of work to make a snare drum sound like a snare drum, an acoustic guitar sound like an acoustic guitar. Once that's done, you've just kind of hit the bass line of beginning the. Then you've got to start to make the acoustic guitar sound like it's been hurt by some trauma or it wants to dance or it's, you know, whatever, whatever.
19:18 - Alexis (Host)
Whatever the emotion is that we're trying to portray.
19:22 - Terry (Guest)
I need a thesaurus, I'm bragging about being a creative writer and I can't even think of more than two emotions. Like how are we going here?
19:29 - Alexis (Host)
We need to watch that movie. It has all the emotions.
19:32 - Terry (Guest)
Yes, that would be a great idea. It wasn't the elementals. I know the one you're talking about. Pixar right, yeah, Pixar, Pixar for the win always.
19:38 - Alexis (Host)
That's so true. No, I, it's all about sometimes finding that balance of, like, stripping it every back, stripping it all back to, yeah, the fundamentals, for sure, um, and yeah, it's lovely to have toys, it's lovely to have, yes, like you said, an opportunity to create in that particular way, but it should be supporting the message or the, the thing that we're trying to.
20:12 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, yeah absolutely yeah, and that that's the only thing to keep in mind, that it is supporting that um and that's the question just to keep asking yourself.
20:21
Paul Mccartney put it really well. He said um, he was talking, I think, specifically about backing vocals. Okay, but I think it works across the board for production. Um, he said that, um, if it's not adding, it's taking away. So you can put in endless vocal harmonies if you want, but you just listen to it and go. Is that adding? And if it's not, if you can barely hear it or whatever, just scrap it, it's probably taking away then. Yeah, it's a good mentality and a good thing to keep in mind in every decision you do. Because, yeah, we can get into the studio and decide that we're going to spend half a day on finding the perfect snare drum I've got 40 snare drums here. We're going to find the one that really suits this song but if in that time, the whole band just loses energy and can no longer be bothered even performing the song and are tired and are hungry, then snare drum sound didn't really matter at t that point you know you've got nothing
21:22 - Alexis (Host)
It's not really going to uh, put the electric energy back into everyone yeah, yeah yes, we found the sound . Would you, is there any resources or, like I don't know, books or courses or something like if you, if someone was wanting to um, do what you do? Is there there anything that you know, good resources that you would suggest?
21:56 - Terry (Guest)
There's kind of endless resources. I know a mate of mine, Simon Morrow, in Melbourne, he's doing an online course for music production and he and I talk a lot about music production. He's got a great ear for that, so I trust what he's saying in that. But, at the same point, youtube is filled with things you want to figure out how to patch a hole in the wall. It's got you covered.
22:24
It's not much different with music production. There's a lot of bits and pieces on that, but it's the same as anything. Sure, it's not sponsored and, um, in the sense that you're kind of getting an honest review, not just a sponsor, um, you know someone talking about something to get kickbacks or whatever, but there's probably, whatever issue you're having, there's probably a, a youtube video dedicated to that. So it's a great place to start. But, more than anything, if you are getting into this, your ears are the only thing that matters, and your ears get worse over time in many ways, not better. When you don't really know what things are doing, you just listen to them for what they are, and that's a good time to really be in the studio and mess around and experiment.
23:17
If you want to do it, you have to be a mad scientist type in the sense that you should sit there with an acoustic guitarist for a day and every mic you can get your hands on and every preamp and every different mic setup you can think of, because there's not a right one and often there's not a wrong one, but it's knowing what gets you what results and how it changes moving things around and how that can work to your advantage, because it's kind of the UK style of record making, where you have a sound and it may not be perfect, but then your next sound tries to make that sound perfect.
23:58
So you might put a piano sound in and you close mic'd it and it's a bit of a tinny kind of clanky sound. There's no room to it, it's impersonal. It's like oh okay, now we could go back into the studio and get a beautiful C5 grand piano and do it properly, or we can just take that and we wanted to put an acoustic guitar in anyway. Let's not close mic the acoustic, let's put a mic across the room from it and get a bit of natural room and ambience to it. Then suddenly you have this contrasting clanky piano sound with this beautiful sweepy acoustic sound and you're starting to get a sound stage.
24:37
You know, that's why, not just knowing a way to do things, but all the ways you can do things and experimenting. You can know how you can manipulate these sounds to really put things together and start to build something. Because a song and music's really music when you start to hear into it, because it kind of messes with you. It pulls you in, but then in being pulled into the song, you're actually inside the vocalist thing because they're they're always up front and centre, you're kind of really being drawn towards them. Yeah, it's a trick, you might be pulled towards the acoustic guitar, but you are leaning in and that's body language, that's telling, you're telling you, telling yourself that you are actually coming towards it.
25:17 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, yeah.
25:19 - Terry (Guest)
Yeah, but yeah, like getting into this is really experimenting as much as you can and um there, there is no right answer um to things. So when you start looking, if you want to start looking at YouTube videos, just understand that it's an opinion and it might be useful to you and it might lead you astray as well.
25:44 - Alexis (Host)
just go down that rabbit hole.
25:48 - Terry (Guest)
It is going to be a rabbit hole, but so is anything that's worth doing, you know.
25:50 - Alexis (Host)
If there was another creative that you could ask these questions and have them on the podcast. Who would you want to know these things about, and why?
26:02 - Terry (Guest)
Oh look, I always love to hear from artists, because that really is where all this begins and ends. So I mean anyone who's doing those things, anyone that's making music that's really, really works, you know on another level, and speaks to you a bit more than just that face value. I'm always ready and fascinated to hear what they have to say.
26:26 - Alexis (Host)
And no, it is interesting thing where we can be so similar and then so totally different all at the same time.
26:36 - Terry (Guest)
That's the beautiful thing about it. It's supposed to represent humanity and we are all a little bit nutty in our own way.
26:45 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, we are well, I know I am anyway.
26:48 - Terry (Guest)
I wouldn't hold you to that that.
26:54 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you very much. Terry Hart. Thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door.
26:57 - Terry (Guest)
So nice chatting with you yeah, no, thank you, you too, yay, cheers.
-
In this episode, Alexis dives deep into the world of artistry with the exceptional Kirsty Hulka. Also known as soul-pop artist Sgt. Hulka, Kirsty is a Perth musician, singer-songwriter, mother and lover of all things with sparkles!
This episode is a treasure trove full of honest reflections on the challenges and triumphs of the songwriting journey. From the solitude that fuels creation to the evolving musicianship shaped by technology, Kirsty opens up about her own songwriting process, her battle with ongoing revisions and perfectionism, and the beauty of finding confidence in her own unique sound.
Although making music a priority can sometimes feel like pushing a rock up a hill, Kirsty illustrates the rewards of forging relationships with fellow artists to the final product of a song, is unparalleled by any challenge.
If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Kirsty on Instagram @sgthulka_
This episode was recorded on 12 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Creative references from Kirsty:
Software: Logic, GarageBand
Tools: Rhymezone
Podcasts: Switched On Pop, Song Exploder
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikToK: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—------------------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
00:48 - Alexis (Host)
Hi Kirsty
00:49 - Kirsty (Guest)
Hi Alexis
00:50 - Alexis (Host)
How are you going?
00:52 - Kirsty (Guest)
Good, how are you?
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
Thank you for coming on Through The Creative Door.
00:56 - Kirsty (Guest)
Thank you for having me.
00:58 - Alexis (Host)
I spent some time thinking about like how I met you and just like just being in awe and fangirling before even we were friends but you are. I don't know. I have so much respect for you as a creative because not only are you a phenomenal writer, singer-songwriter, performer, but you also are so creative in like your endeavours, Like I've seen you be uber creative, like with merch and like getting your hands all in there and and making things sparkly.
01:32 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah yeah, it's, I do I do make a lot of things sparkly
01:39 - Alexis (Host)
And also like, yeah, making merch, and like your last show that I saw you, you had a piano that you oh,
01:47 - Kirsty (Guest)
Oh, a piano shell.
01:51 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, so it looks like a grand piano. I'm going to take that with me today actually.
01:54 - Alexis (Host)
Oh really,oOh my goodness, I feel like that needs to be a staple
01:59 - Kirsty (Guest)
For stages that will fit it. It's quite big.
02:02 - Alexis (Host)
is it quite heavy?
02:03 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, yeah. So yeah for shows that um the stage is big enough, then I'll bring it, but yeah when it's um a smaller stage it won't fit.
02:12 - Alexis (Host)
So thank you for having me in your home. I also have seen some of your little creative space that you have at the front, yes, but I'm curious what does a creative space mean to you?
02:24 - Kirsty (Guest)
To be honest, a creative space to me is solitude. I really struggle to create musically when there's other people around. So one of the things that I have noticed just about myself is that, even if someone else is home and, um, I'm, you know, wanting to create some music, I can't do it. I feel like there's people listening, or, you know, when I'm trying out different ideas and going, oh, like this is a cool little idea to play, or this is a cool little song, I end up, if there's someone else home, I feel self-conscious and I feel that I can't create.
03:05
And so one of the things that I've worked out is that, for me, creating musically needs to be a solo thing. I need to be alone in the right headspace to be able to really get into it. One of the hardest things is time, obviously, um, finding the time to allow myself to be creative is often hard. When I've got limited time during the day to be alone, um, and there's always washing to be folded, there's always dishes to be done, there's always an email to be sent, there's always another thing to do, and so being able to actually allow myself to be creative is also one of the biggest challenges, and so I guess having the creative space is one thing, but then, yeah, having the mental space to be able to, to be able to create, is also hard um
04:02 - Alexis (Host)
Do you find that you schedule time in and can delegate it, or is it just more when you've..
04:10 - Kirsty (Guest)
Sometimes I can. One thing that I've worked out that works well for me now is that everything is a progression, so like I will start a song and I'll come up with an idea, and then I've got to sit on it, yeah, and then I'll do a little bit more on it and a little bit more on it. I've got to kind of keep coming back to that same idea, the same thing of, like you know, a painter will have their blank canvas and they'll start painting and it's like a work in progress. For me, songwriting is a work in progress. I'm not the kind of person that can sit down and write a song in one go. I have to kind of keep coming back to it and keep readjusting and, yeah, rehashing it and going does that work? How does that work there, if I put this bit there, is that better or is that worse? And I kind of keep going back and forth for a while until I come up with the final product, the final product. So yeah, the creative space is definitely more of a mental space for me rather than an actual physical space. I can create anywhere.
05:14
One of the interesting things I did a while ago, before I had a daughter, I went down to Pemberton, booked a little chalet, stayed down there for three nights or four nights, I think and just set up all my equipment and went I'm just going to get creative. And I got down there and I sat down at the piano, blank nothing. And you know, I'm surrounded by beautiful forests and I've got all this time alone and nothing. And so I sat and I sat and I sat and I went far out come on, Kirsty, we can do this and I ended up, um, so yeah, first day was a write-off got nothing done, nothing at all. Second day went all right, I need tp, I need to do something about this now.
06:06
So I woke up in the morning and I went for a run and I thought I'm going to listen to the songs that I love and the songs that I want to kind of aspire to be. So I listened to a bunch of songs and then I got back to the accommodation and went I'm going to learn those songs and I'm going to learn how to play the songs that I really like and pull those songs apart as to what they have done to make them songs that I like and that I want to listen to and why other people like as well. So I pulled those songs apart and I learned how to play them. And then, since doing that, suddenly it just went ping and I started to get some ideas flowing and going oh, if I just do this, I can be inspired by what they've done there.
06:48
And you know I can use that six, eight time signature. Yeah, I can use that, you know I can go to this chord there that they've done in that song or something. And so then I found that I'd come up with an idea and then I'd let it sit and I'd go for a run and as I'd be running I would get another idea pop into my head yeah and then I'd come back and I'd put that down and then I'd go, all right, cool, that's that bit, and then I'd have to go and do something else.
07:15
So I find my creative space is in little blocks. Yeah now. So to put the pressure on myself of I'm going to sit down and write doesn't work for me. I need to do it in little chunks. I find first thing in the morning I'm very creative. By the time it gets to eight o'clock at night I'm useless.
07:37 - Alexis (Host)
I know. Obviously, at the moment you have a project, Sgt. Hulka, which is amazing. Kicking goals. But, you've also had a lot of projects and a lot of ensembles and things that you've worked on over the years. I'm curious if there's a body of work that you're most proud of and how it came about.
07:57 - Kirsty (Guest)
I'd probably say Sgt. Hulka is the one that I'm most proud of. It's, in terms of how it's developed and how it's progressed, is something that I've put a lot of effort into and I've and I've kind of set myself the goal of good is not good enough. It's like if it's good, that's not good enough. I want it to be better than good, and so whenever, like the last EP, when we recorded the EP, I took all the tracks to my producer and I said these are the tracks I want to record. And he listened to me and he said, oh yeah, they're good. And I went cool, so how do we make them great? And he went well, what do you mean? And I said, well, if they're good, we need to make them better. And so it was trying to pull the songs apart so that then I could go you know, listen to it. From a different perspective of just because that's how I've written, it doesn't mean that's how it has to be. And so I worked really a lot with my producer and working out how the songs could go from good to like really good something that I was able to go.
09:14
I'm really proud, proud of that song. So I think, in terms of, like songs that I'm really proud of. Forget What I Told You, is one that I still surprise myself like I wrote that that was. You know, that's pretty cool that I wrote that. In terms of songs that I'm really proud of and ones that I yeah, something that I can go, I'm really proud of that, Forget What I Told You is one that I am really proud of and I think
09:341 - Alexis (Host)
Well, it's a banging song.
09:42
Yeah, it shows, because of, yeah, the amount of what I put into it. I guess, yeah, even when we were mixing it and my, and you know, Patrick said you know how's it sound, Kirsty? I'm like, yeah, it can be better. And I think by the end, Patrick was a bit like come on, Kirsty, I think it’s good. Yeah but no, it can be better. Yeah, um, and you know it's getting that fine detail of going back to something enough times to be able to go cool, that's it. But there's also that trap of going kind of continuously, going back to it over and over again and then never being happy with it, kind of like the painter that never finishes the painting yeah because they're always making final tweaks. So there has to come a point when you go all right, it's done
10:29 - Alexis (Host)
And what's that point for you do you think?
10:31 - Kirsty (Guest)
I think part of it would be when I feel like I've done enough and I feel like there's nothing more I can do, but also timing. It also gets to the point where I go all right, I've got to actually get this out now.
10:48 - Alexis (Host)
I find for me, for myself, having certain particular deadlines and allowing, yes, there's a little bit of time to pick it up and put it down within that space, but there's definitely a deadline.
10:59 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah. So there has to be a deadline there. I've found that as I've gotten older, my creative ability has just massively improved. It's like if I look back to the songs I wrote when I was 20, I'm like, ooh, can't let people listen to that.
11:20 - Alexis (Host)
But how great is it though, because I know for myself. It's the same as the look back and you go oh look, how far I've come.
11:24 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, that's and that's great. I think that's also like when I, you know, being proud of that product that I can put out is that if 20 year old Kirsty was to like, look at what I'd done with the whole EP and the, you know how much I'd put into writing and arranging and recording and everything like 20-year-old Kirsty would have been like wow, that's awesome, whereas like if back then, I would never have been able to do it.
11:55 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah.
11:56 - Kirsty (Guest)
It's like I wouldn't have been able to do it. Yeah, it's like I wouldn't have been able to have to have the mental space, the ability um the knowledge of songs that I've got now.
12:08 - Alexis (Host)
You need to flex that muscle.
12:11 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah. The more that I do it, the more I learn, so yeah.
12:14 - Alexis (Host)
So, on the flip side of things that you're proud of, has there ever been something that has challenged your creativity and, if so, what was the major lesson, do you think?
12:27 - Kirsty (Guest)
I think, like everyone, we get the mental block. That's something that's challenged my creativity, especially as a songwriter. You like I, for so many years I would write songs about, like personal songs. This is what this means to me. This is how you know, songwriting is a way that you get out emotions. It's a way that you process what you're feeling. One of the biggest challenges is when I'm feeling really happy and I'm like, well, well, everything's pretty good in my life, so I don't know what I'd write a song about.
13:01 - Alexis (Host)
It's so tough. You're not the first person I've spoken to. That's just like life's really good, and so I don't really have.
13:09 - Kirsty (Guest)
Like, how am I going to write a heartache song, and so it's trying to find a song, trying to find inspiration to write when everything's all good. So you know, generally you go into writing songs when you're feeling sad or heartbroken or whatever. But to be able to go right, I'm going to write a song about periods, yes, or one of the things for me is that I have to know what the song is about. I can't write a song when it's got no meaning. I need to have a theme there, even if I don't have lyrics. This is what this song is about. Even if I've got one line in the song and that's the only lyrics I've got for the song, I have to know what the song's about. I have to know what direction it's going in and what message I want to get across. So sometimes finding that inspiration of what do I want to write a song about is the biggest challenge, because songwriting is storytelling. That's the way that I look at it. It's got to be telling a story. You've got to engage with your listeners in your lyrics, otherwise it could just be an instrumental song.
14:21
One of the biggest challenges is finding ways to write songs and what it's going to be about. The other one is the blockage of going. I don't know where to take this, and one of the biggest lessons I've learned is to sit on it, don't rush it, don't push it, just wait. So usually for me it's a six-month process of writing a song, like from beginning til end. I couldn't even tell you the last time I wrote a song. Oh no, I'm sorry. There was one song that I wrote last year that I think I wrote in a weekend, but to me that's my simple song. It's like it's a simple structure. It's simple lyrics. Well, not simple lyrics, but there's nothing complex about it. It's a nice song, but it's not a song that I'd go um. You know, it's not a complex one, if that makes sense.
15:13 - Alexis (Host)
So I do think I mean maybe you feel the same. There are the occasions where suddenly a song just sort of pours out of you yeah, and it just all sort of works yeah um and others where you're just like, yeah, there's a great idea here, but I, yeah, definitely need to sit it down and yeah, mull over it for a bit, yeah, yeah, so like, for example, I was one of the things that I kind of used to get over that challenge, which I've never done before, is, um, the inspiration of other people's songs. So it's not to say that I'm going to listen to a song and be like, oh, I'm just going to copy exactly what they did there. Um, it's trying to use the subconscious of songs that I'm inspired by to create the sounds that I want. Like, one of the songs that I've the next single that I'm going to be releasing had the chorus and I was just struggling with the verse. I'd kind of written it and gone, oh yeah, you know, that'll do, that'll do for now. But in my head I was always like, but I'll get it better at some stage. But I had to get something down.
16:15
And the other day I was driving and one of my favorite songs came on, um, Perfect World by Alan Stone, and as I was listening to it I was like, oh, that's what my verse needs. It needs something soulful and at a higher pitch, because I was trying to sing the verse like too low and it just wasn't working, and so I kind of used that inspiration of what that song was and then tried to put it to the song that I'd done and suddenly it just yeah, it just all went and fit and I was like there it is. And so I think it's about not letting yourself, or not letting myself, being stuck in that moment of frustration of like I can't get it, I don't know what to do with this song, and instead consciously letting it sit, if that makes sense. Now I've learned just to go. I'll take a back step and I'll just leave it and it'll come when it comes.
17:09
But also making a conscious effort to allow it to do it. So, listening to songs that inspire me, pulling apart songs that I really like, like well, what chords did they use there? Why do those chords work? Oh, they do some like really cool stabs in that bit that sounds really cool. Oh, they've got like a violin doing some weird thing at the top there and actually pulling other people's songs apart, I consciously find inspiration from the music that I love.
17:33
I think one of the things that I've discovered as well now is that I used to always, you know, write songs in all kinds of different styles. So, you know, I'd get a melody idea and I'd start writing like oh, you know, this one's a bit more of a folk song, or this one's a slower one, or this is a this kind of song. But now I'm a lot more focused on my product. Is I'm going, this is the product that I want to achieve? How do I achieve that? So what do I need to add into a song to make it the product that I want? Rather than, oh, this is how I'm inspired and this is what the song is, I'm taking a much more conscious effort to say I want to be a soul pop artist. I'm fitting it into the style of music that I want, rather than that's just the product that it is. Yeah.
18:24 - Alexis (Host)
I'm curious. I know that we sort of spoke about how you know you don't necessarily need a particular space to be creative, but is it an object or a thing?
18:42 - Kirsty (Guest)
No. Interestingly, the time that I get most of my ideas is on my motorbike. Motorbike and driving. That's when I get ideas pop into my head, not so much car, but yeah motorbike and driving. It's weird and, I don't know why, interesting, but there's been many, many times I've been riding my motorbike and suddenly I'll just get this idea in my head and I've literally had to pull over and get my phone out and record it into my phone and then keep going again. Perhaps it's the know there's nothing else to listen to. Yes, there's. There's no, no one to talk to. There's not a radio to turn on, there's not a podcast to listen to. It's just me and myself focusing on staying safe on the road.
19:27 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting that you say that, because for me, when I do long-haul drives in my camper van on tour or travel, I find that, yeah, it's like because you're concentrating on something else it's like your subconscious has a chance to then start to like make ideas.
19:44 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, like there's nothing else I can do. I can't check my texts, I can't quickly send an email, I can't hang the washing out. I've just got to drive and be safe.
19:55 - Alexis (Host)
If you could give another creative nugget of advice, a piece of advice, what would that be?
20:02 - Kirsty (Guest)
Don't stop. So my advice would be don't stop trying. And I think one of the things with writing music is the moment that you, like I said to you before, the moment that you stop, no one's going to come knocking on your door asking you why, they're, you know you'll just stop.
20:22
Um, when I stopped writing music, when I was in I think I was 26 or 27 um, it was like I I needed a break from it, but I missed it and I wanted to keep doing it, but I lost a. You know, I'd, every weekend, I'd be out playing gigs and suddenly I wasn't, and I wasn't going out and playing gigs. And then I felt bad because I didn't want to go and watch any shows, because I wasn't making any music and the. It took me a couple, quite a few years to actually realize, you know, what was wrong, why I wasn't feeling good about myself, why what was missing in my life. And then I made a decision to start playing music again and it was almost like oh, there it is, that's what I needed, um, and especially playing original music. It's like I needed to be creating again.
21:20 - Alexis (Host)
We spoke off mic about that community and like having your cup filled and how people don't necessarily check in with you, but they're just doing their thing.
21:30 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah it’s, I don't regret having a break. I think I needed it. I needed to have that break to pull back and kind of reassess what I wanted. But I'm glad that I've pursued and that I haven't given up. Creativity is, It's hard to allow yourself to do it because you think you know what. I've got to work, I've got to do all these other things and this isn't earning me any money. It's like what's the point of doing it? But the point of doing it is the friends that you meet, the community that you find the cup that you can fill up. It's like I create music because I have to. Yeah, I don't do it because you know I want to be Adele or I want to be Beyonce. That's never been my goal. My goal is I do it because I have to and I know what it's like when I don't do it. I think you know I just I would end up drinking so much because I wasn't playing anywhere and, you know, because I didn't have anything to do.
22:36 - Alexis (Host)
Is there any resources that you would suggest or recommend for someone who's wanting to develop their creativity?
22:46 - Kirsty (Guest)
Logic. Honestly it's game changer or GarageBand. What it's like now as a creative and writing songs, like I started writing songs when I was you know 14 or something, and it was just the piano and that would be all there was. But nowadays the technology that we've got to create like to kind of get the ball rolling, like get some Logic loops and just loop some different riffs going and like sing some words over it and see if it works. Like, there's so much out there in terms of you don't have to know how to play an instrument. You can get creative and write songs.
23:30 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah love it. One extra question, one extra last question. If you could have anyone else come onto this podcast and answer these questions, who would it be and why?
23:42 - Kirsty (Guest)
I mean I would love to hear the creative process of Bon Iver, the whole thing of like how he kind of found his sound in that creative way. So, yeah, definitely Bon Iver.
23:55 - Alexis (Host)
Kirsty, thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door. It's so lovely to have you be part of it. Thank you and yeah, excited to see what else is coming down the pipeline for you.
24:07 - Kirsty (Guest)
Yeah, exciting things coming up.
-
In this episode, Alexis is joined by Morgan Joanel, a Perth artist, musician, jewellery maker and a true versatile creative force. Alexis and Morgan explore the essence of nomadic lifestyles, discussing the significance of anchor points and how important it is to find your own rhythm in a world of noise.
They explore the dance between structure and spontaneity in the creative process and how navigating societal norms and personal boundaries can be a true challenge for every creative. Drawing from personal experiences, they reflect on how having boundaries can often feel like hitting a wall, like Morgan’s car accident, which can disrupt your journey and leave you yearning to return to where you were before. Yet, through these challenges, we often discover a profound truth: boundaries, though initially restrictive, can serve as catalysts for growth and self-discovery.
If you’d like to see more, you can follow Morgan on Instagram @morganjoanel
This episode was recorded on 6 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Links:
Disappear Music Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilaxfNNtjRU
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikToc: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—------------------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
00:48 - Alexis (Host)
Morgan, welcome to Through the Creative Door, morgan. Welcome to Through the Creative Door. How you going?
00:51 - Morgan (Guest)
Thank you, I am very good.
00:54 - Alexis (Host)
You have been jet-setting around. You are always jet-setting around.
00:58 - Morgan (Guest)
I feel like I don't think I was for a really long time, but recently I definitely have been, so I'm probably making up for all the time that.
01:07 - Alexis (Host)
Amazing. Yeah, yeah, just put it all.
01:11 - Morgan (Guest)
Yeah, one little container, get it all out.
01:15 - Alexis (Host)
I love it. I am so chuffed to be able to be chatting with you because I've been fangirling you from afar. I mean, when we talk about creative, you've got your fingers in all of the creative pies. I've been fangirling you for, actually, I came across your music video for Disappear.
01:42 Morgan (Guest)
The stop motion?
01:45 Alexis (Host)
Yes, yes, and I was especially because you released that during COVID?
01:46 - Morgan (Guest)
I think it actually. You know what? I think it was one month before COVID hit and I did a launch for it and I did all the PR for it, did the whole proper release, was really happy with it. And then bang. Oh yeah, so it probably got a little more airtime, because everyone's at home and I'm going to work out.
02:07 - Alexis (Host)
I wasn't going to say that. I was just saying that it felt like it was very present in the COVID time. Yeah, because.
02:12 - Morgan (Guest)
I feel like I honestly think it was February 2020. And then that next month and during that time it led to other people having seen other musicians saying “Can you do something for me?” And so when COVID hit, strangely I was inundated with all this digital work and artist work and I was like I guess I can do this stuff for other people. So some crazy good timing. Whatever happened, it happened.
02:42 - Alexis (Host)
Oh my gosh, that's so interesting. Well, for those little listening, make sure you go check out that music video, because I actually think it's quite stunning. It's very beautiful.
02:52 - Morgan (Guest)
Thank you, I very much enjoyed it. I just learned how to stop motion animate stuff for that and I plan to do more, because there's something really special about having being able to always look at it like choreographing the scene, the characters to the music, the colours, and you have the ability to print stuff at home, cut it out on paper and then make it work how you want it to work, and you can do that while you can't go outside, and it's a nice little creative thing where you just let the music come to life.
03:25 - Alexis (Host)
So good and you're. I mean, I'm just mentioning one part of your creativeness. But we're in this beautiful space of yours which you've got a piano, but you also have a sewing machine. You've got lots of beautiful little beading and things like that that I'm assuming from my time of working at a fashion jewellery company back in the day. It looks like all bits and pieces to making jewellery.
03:54 - Morgan (Guest)
It is. It sure is, and I only recently labelled it all yeah, I'll, I'll. I'll say myself a little more time.
04:02 - Alexis (Host)
So I guess it comes into the first question that I had for you, which is what does a creative space mean to you and why?
04:14 - Morgan (Guest)
I think for me I can get away with just a couple of things that are like anchor points.
04:20
So because of the travelling, because of, you know, just being in Europe and going to music festivals and then also being creative and working for a friend's fashion label, shout out to Vera Black it's like living out of a suitcase, being really far away from home and then being in someone else's creative space. That can feel like you just get swept up in the wave of other things and if you're not at home with your specific things that you usually anchor into, it's nice to have just a couple of things that you can carry with you. And so I feel like I can get away with just a few things. Definitely, colours mean a lot to me, so there's specific colours that I don't know why, but because I paint and I often link music with colours, with wording, with art styles. If I have specific like, I have like a specific sarong that I've had for ages and anytime I travel I don't need it, but I'll put that in and if I go, I'm in a hotel room
05:32
They'll just be on the pillow or hang it over something and it just it anchors you into this feeling of being at home and safe and creative. And so then you can kind of put the whatever that creative side of your is able to come out, no matter where you are. And so I used to do it where I'd take all. I'd take specific crystals, I would take very specific things because I felt like I had to have certain things, and over time you realize you just don't need as much as you probably think you do in order to activate creative stuff.
06:06
So, yes, you look around my beautiful space, and there's a lot here because I'm making things for other people, or I'm making jewellery for the brand, or I need a record so that my guitars have to be here, or there's my paintings, and but I don't need any of that. It's more like, look, I'm here for a while, so I may as well just keep it all in one place, and then it does inspire you because you know, the more you have, the more you're anchored into it. Yeah, so I think creative space it doesn't have to be one singular space, I think it's a feeling, and I think even down to if I do it a lot with playlists on Spotify. I have one or two that allow me to meditate, so if I'm tired or if there's too much going on and I need to switch off, I have a specific playlist that I love to listen to. So, even down to just sonically, having something that allows you to put your headphones on you could have no shawl, no crystals, no, nothing of yours.
07:08
But when you have, and being a musician, you would get it, you can relate to it, having that space to just go “All I need is a rhythm” and I'm used to this playlist, I'm used to this rhythm. I know it puts me into a calming space. I know I can breathe through it. If I've got pain and I know you experience pain and things like that as well it's something to distract you from it and allow you to go. Everything's okay right now, and then you get back into the wave of life.
07:41 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, so true. It's so interesting that you say that about music because, funnily enough, when I paint which I don't do very often, but I always seem to listen to Linkin Park when I paint. And for whatever reason it puts me in a particular mood to paint. I love that. I've done it since I was a teenager. I don't know, I don't. I don't question it, it just is a thing I don't.
08:08 - Morgan (Guest)
So if you are like at the shops or something, and Linkin Park comes on. Does the music activate you to want to go and paint?
08:13 - Alexis (Host)
It makes me want to paint.
08:15 - Morgan (Guest)
So it works both ways.
08:19 - Alexis (Host)
Yep! Speaking of what I mean, you have, like we were just saying, you just have your finger in all of the pies, which is bloody amazing. So I guess this next question is probably going to be a hard one. But what is something that you're proud of creating, and how did it come about?
08:35 - Morgan (Guest)
I think, as a general rule of thumb for me, I don't tend to feel a specific feeling of I'm proud of that that I've created, which is probably due to creating so much that it, to me, just within myself, that end thing is not as much what I'm doing it for. So the end thing like if I'm creating a Mandala artwork or something the end thing is more oh well, like that's just the end of it, that's not what I was doing it for in the first place. So it is a little hard. But I think when there's risk involved with something and I'm putting all of my eggs in one basket, which is usually what you're not meant to do, and when it's a real risk, I literally have to take the risk tattooed on me, probably to remind me to keep doing it. It always works. So I could say, when it comes to actual projects, probably the last Kickstarter project that I put out, the campaign which was crowdfunding, I did the last one to pre-fund and manufacture a deck of Oracle cards which had my artworks all turned into it, and doing that project, the time frames and actually having to get so incredibly structured to bring 56 artworks from paper to digitized to then choosing the manufacturers to uploading, to writing the meanings, but having the risk of people pre-buying it. It's like you have to deliver.
10:24 - Alexis (Host) That's a gamble, isn't it?
10:26 - Morgan (Guest)
It is, and I learned okay, there's certain things about this. I should. That was a mistake. I should not have done that, but you do too bad, you've got to keep going. So I think that was something, most recently, I'm very proud of, but also so that was a year ago. And then just more recently, on a personal, overall life level, choosing to go overseas on a one-way ticket and just rolling with it absolutely changed my life and I'm really proud that, even though that pragmatic side of me was saying this is not a good idea, because what are you going to do when you've spent all your money and you come back and you can't work because technically I'm not allowed to work due to injuries and things like that and thinking, well, you're just going to spend all your money and then what are you going to do? And trying to quieten that voice and actually ignore it and go, but everything in my body and everything I'm feeling is telling me you just have to do it. And then riding that wave and seeing the magic that's come from it, probably more proud of that than anything else.
11:31
And that's recent, so it's nice to understand that side of things.
11:35 - Alexis (Host)
And we spoke off mic about just the pull and throw that's within us as creatives,
11:38 - Morgan (Guest)
The back and forth the organized, the organized in the gypsy and the wanderlust, exactly the pirate and the mermaid. It's like.
11:54 - Morgan (Guest)
There's always like a nice flow and like the rhythm of, I think, the waters like or the structure, and it's great to have that and you can follow it. But then there's also the fire and the spark and the unpredictability, or however you say it, of stuff that just happens and capturing that pulse. And how do you, if you're really structured, how do you capture the gypsy moments, the spontaneity?
12:24 - Alexis (Host)
Because you want to be in the moment and present for those. But that doesn't involve being so structured and rigid.
12:30 - Morgan (Guest)
Yeah Exactly, and then if you're always in the fire and stuff, you don't get to enjoy the things to be proud of. That take time and they need the rhythm. So it's a very interesting line to walk and I think a lot of creatives have that you were saying it's like that friction between which, which you know and I switching the hat.
12:51 - Alexis (Host)
I think that is just the ongoing lesson or ongoing dance that we do, yeah, and it is a dance.
12:59 - Morgan (Guest)
It is a dance because sometimes it's about letting the spontaneity be the leader, and sometimes it's absolutely not.
13:06 - Alexis (Host)
And both of those are scary
13:09 - Morgan (Guest)
How do you know which is which? Andno one else can tell you either.
13:11 - Alexis (Host)
No, that's right.
13:12 - Morgan (Guest)
Because everyone has their own process. So, as a creative we were saying that just before that it's like one structure or system or rhythm can work for one person, but as an artist, you have your own, your own thing to express, and so it has to work for you.
13:30 - Alexis (Host)
And I think that's a beautiful thing about speaking to others as well in your community, to be reminded that it's like we're all trying to find the rhythm for ourselves. But it's nice to hear, perhaps the journey of others, to get a bit of like oh okay, maybe, maybe that, maybe that works for me, maybe that bit works for me, maybe that doesn't work for me, because everyone has different aspects.
13:55 - Morgan (Guest)
And, yeah, you're right, like one different person will take, cherry pick a couple of things that are going on for you. When you share your story of what you're doing and how you're achieving things and what's going on for you and what you're working through and how you go about it, some people will cherry pick certain things from your story and say, well, I relate to those things. I might take a couple of them and the person next to them would relate to the complete opposite parts of what you've said. But that's the point is sharing stories or expressing yourself, and we're so lucky that we get to do it in such a beautiful way and really get in touch with emotions and have the, you've got to be brave to be able to share it Honestly. Yeah, especially with algorithms and all that stuff and it becoming this whole thing where it's not even about art, it's just about let's just get popular.
14:44 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I guess that's an interesting way to step into my next question, which is has there been something that's challenged you creatively, and what do you think the major listen was around that?
15:01 - Morgan (Guest)
You know what? Being challenged creatively is probably a similar theme that's come up over, you know, 20 years, 15 years, 10 years, and the more professional that I've gone with bringing music out or doing art, whatever creative expression is, the more I recognize that themes keep repeating and, over time, in different creative outlets, still the same thing that shows up and I genuinely think it's as simple as if I feel suppressed by somebody else in whatever way that is, whether it's partnership, whether it's maybe at school, it might be teachers or, you know, over time, record label, like certain things. If there is a, we were talking about boundaries earlier- if there is a boundary, I will run as hard as I can at that boundary.
16:00
And I come at things like that with if there's a boundary, I can climb over it, I can go through it, I could go under, I could go around it, but I will find the way through. And so in that sense, it's a really strange dance between when you're suppressed and you can't do it, but also being inspired to make it work. And I think that two and a half years ago, when I was in a car accident that came out of nowhere and everything across the board in my life got taken away, family, home, ability to stand, ability to go and play when everything was away, it cleared out maybe cobwebs, it cleared out probably patterns I'd become to think, I'd started thinking and I realized that I was probably suppressing myself in so many ways in the few years leading up to that, and I wasn't even trying to express myself how I'd previously done it and it's. I'm just working this out now, as I'm telling you. So thanks.
17:10 - Alexis (Host)
I can empathize with that in so many ways a totally different journey. But for me, with my complex regional pain syndrome diagnosis at the start of the year, that's just upside down and it's affected your hands.
17:27 - Morgan (Guest)
Yes, so you see, if it had affected your feet or something like that, you'd still be able to play piano and everything, and I couldn't stand because it affected my leg. And so to play guitar and I just can't sit and do it, and you know, and so it. When something physically takes away your creative expression, you're left with having to look at things differently and probably understand why it's so important to you, and then you it's, it's crazy. Then you have this journey of essentially doing whatever it takes to be able to get back to who you already were before.
18:06 - Alexis (Host)
Isn’t that crazy, it’s so true!
18:08 - Morgan (Guest)
Other people, I think, who aren't, say, already expressing themselves and making a living out of it, and stuff would be in their jobs, or wanting to be able to express themselves. And probably looking at anybody who's doing even small gigs, let alone like professionally or whatever, just be thinking, I wish I could express myself in that way. And then you're doing it as your job and as a living and as you know how to do it, and then it gets taken away and you will fight harder to get back to what you're doing when other people have the ability to do it but they don't even know that they can fight towards it. And I find that so interesting.
18:49
And I think that when I said before about having a boundary, I feel that when I had the car accident, it was an explosion that did take everything away, but it took away all the things in all the areas of my life, not just creatively, and the one thing I still had was my mindset, and then that got me through getting through physical stuff, and then, once I started yeah, once I started getting back into feeling that everything was going well, it's like it switched and then I had physical things back, but my mindset was getting worse and worse and worse.
19:22
So I went on a real journey where it was really strange and I got to heal all of this stuff through the whole thing. And I think, as we were saying I said earlier that they do those studies on kids in like an, like an oval, like a playground, and if you put humans in one spot and there's no boundary, no circle on the outside, they all stick together because they don't want to push the boundaries. But as soon as you put a fence up, all the kids will run to the edges and go towards it
19:56 - Alexis (Host)
There's the boundary. I want to touch it.
19:58 - Morgan (Guest)
I can do it, I can take the risk, I can do that and I think that's probably when I had this car accident and everything just went bang, itt was almost like that was me, that was the boundary of somehow I don't know how to explain that but something that took all the creativity away. So I was like, right, that's it, I have to get back there. I don't know something strange like that.
20:20 - Alexis (Host)
It's interesting that, I dont’ know who I. Something that one of my chiropractors said to me at once was that “the journey to get there is easier because we've been there before.”
20:33 - Morgan (Guest)
Oh, that's good. Great advice.
20:33 - Alexis (Host)
I got given that, when I was just feeling really disenfranchised, really deflated about ever getting full mobility in my hand back and it was like but you have done that before.
20:53 - Morgan (Guest)
I got goosebumps look. Yeah, because that's exactly what I was just saying before, that if people haven't experienced pure expression and knowing the feeling of that joy and just that, what do you even call it? Where you're not even in control of it, it's just coming through you and it's total freedom, right, like when you're able to just whatever you feel inside. You can then put it in the physical world, and when people appreciate it or they listen or they support it, it's bizarre because you think and I'm just doing what's inside of me- how is it that
20:53 - Alexis (Host)
I'm just a vessel for the thing
21:25 Morgan (Guest)
Yeah, how is it that this, like you, understand it? You know, and other people who can't do that or aren't at the place yet wanna get there so badly. And you're right. That's an incredible way that you're a chiropractor put it to say you've already been there, so you know the way back, and it's just you know the end goal.
21:44 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, it might be frustrating, but you still have been there. You've done all the hard steps. You've really paved the way.
21:50 - Morgan (Guest)
There you go, and then, when something comes, up like a chronic pain thing or a misdiagnosis or whatever it is, you realize. Well, I can go under it, over it, through it, around it, cause I know I will know when it feels like I'm back there. Yes, yeah, that's great, a great way to put it.
22:07 - Alexis (Host)
I love how we're talking this through.
22:13 - Morgan (Guest)
Yeah, it's amazing. Look at us. We're healing everything here, yes.
22:16 - Alexis (Host)
I need to rename the podcast Healing Podcast. We talk about what we need to just work through.
22:23 - Morgan (Guest)
Yes.
22:27 - Alexis (Host)
Actually, maybe that's a good way going into my next question, which was if you could give one piece of advice or a nugget of advice to another creative, what would it be?
22:41 - Morgan (Guest)
A piece of advice I actually think is somewhat similar to what I was saying before, that we all, as humans, have our own internal rhythms and a beat of you know the beat, the back beat right, just the backbone of your life and the way that you interact with people, and it all gets built through families and as you're growing up and, of course, all of that and then your expression, and I think that there's a lot of, we're in a society that is structured to certain calendars and so there's certain societal rules, you know that that make you think you can do one thing but you can't do another, and there's boundaries and all of that stuff.
23:30
And so I really think the best advice anybody could take is you have to find your own rhythm and then you have to be able to accept it and you have to be able to start working with it, especially when it goes against what other people your family, your partners, your friends, your job like, whatever it is will probably be at friction. And the further away you are from being able to express yourself, probably the bigger journey you've got to find it again, because we're all born into this society, which has its own rhythm and it's not created for creative people. So that's always why it's the struggling artist or the crazy artist. So because we're more like anomalies, we're on the outskirts looking at things, because we've found at least parts of our own rhythm. And I think any way, whether you're a musician, poet, designer, artist, painter, filmmaker, photographer, model, actor, playwright, whatever you do, you've got to find your own rhythm to keep it going, because otherwise you get affected by everything else, infected by everything else and it takes over.
24:50 - Alexis (Host)
It's like what you said before about it takes courage to do that and our communities around us. For some of us, we're very lucky and we find the community as we're figuring out what our journey is and what our rhythm is.
25:09 - Morgan (Guest)
But, yeah. You know, I never felt like I had community with creative stuff, probably because I'm a bit of a, I'm like this in. Have you heard that saying the way you do one thing is the way you do all things?
25:21
I love that and a lot of the time it's really scary, because if you figure something out and you think, oh, I don't like that about myself or how that's interacted, whatever it is, and then you go Wait, if I'm noticing that I do that here, oh no, am I doing this in other areas? And then sometimes you can sweep across and go ooh, okay.
25:42 - Alexis (Host)
It's a common denominator.
25:43 - Morgan (Guest)
Sometimes it's ugly and not cool and sometimes it's great and you go. I'm so glad I have that courage or I have that ability and, yeah, I can apply that and I just I never really had community and I, and that's just, I was an only child. Well I am. You know, I still am. But so being on my own and being creative, that made sense and a little bit of a social butterfly and a little bit of going from art to painting to singing, to designing things, whatever that relationship to creativity was enough to feel like there was stuff going on. And so it's only been since I went overseas and really found that creative group of people, casual community, and then coming back to Perth realizing it's all here as well and like that's wild, because it was always here but I wasn't there for it or I don't know. It's hard to explain, but it all feels great now and I think, man, that accident, that car accident, was great, just blocked everything out so I could get more straight through the centre.
26:50 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, you don't wish it upon anyone to have trials and tribulations, but if people can get through them as healthily as possible and learn things from them, it helps in some way, I don't know, bridge the divide.
27:08 - Morgan (Guest)
Yeah, like I've been told I can't work. I've been told I've got prescription drugs, everything, and there's times where I'm like I can feel that I've pushed my body physically too hard so I will have to take some of the prescription medication. And then other times I'm like I don't want to take the prescription medication but then I've got vices and I'll lean into that and drink my tequila and whatever, and then that'll make it okay, and then you're unbalanced and then you've got to come back through that rhythm and there's a lot that goes on with all of that stuff. And it's just it's interesting to navigate it all and figure out your own rhythms.
27:49 - Alexis (Host)
Yes, so true, so true. I have one last question for you. If you could have anyone come on to the podcast next and answer these questions, who would it be and why?
28:05 - Morgan (Guest)
I'd love to hear Vera Black answer all of this stuff. Yeah, I think that would be great and she does, has a fashion label, designs hats, and she's Australian and she's from Perth and was in Sydney and is now over there and I think it would be interesting to hear her answer.
28:24 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, Morgan, thank you so much for joining me Through The Creative Door.
28:29 - Morgan (Guest)
Thank you for having me. It was great to chat with you. I feel really happy that you asked me to be involved.
28:36 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, I'm so chuffed again. I was fangirling for a while. I love that.
28:41 - Morgan (Guest)
Oh, well, then we're going to have to play more. Do shows together, all of the things.
28:47 - Alexis (Host)
Love it, thank you.
28:48 - Morgan (Guest)
Thank you.
-
In this episode, Perth-based songwriter and creator of the series “Tender Is The Night,” Leigh Gardener, joins Alexis to share insights into his creative journey. From his experiences coordinating ensembles to his innovative approach to songwriting, Leigh offers a candid look at his creative process. He reflects on the importance of finding a creative space, sharing anecdotes about his trusty desk that has been a constant companion throughout his musical endeavours.
Leigh also discusses the genesis of the “Tender Is The Night” music series, born out of a desire to support fellow musicians during challenging times. Through this project, Leigh bridges the gap between contemporary music and classical composition, providing artists with the opportunity to hear their songs transformed by string arrangements.
However, Leigh's creative journey hasn't been without its challenges. He opens up about his struggles with mental health and the realization that his approach to songwriting was taking a toll. Despite setbacks, Leigh remains resilient, seeking healthier ways to channel his creativity and offering valuable advice to fellow artists (like you!).
If you’d like to see more, you can follow on Instagram @chuditchmusic OR @tenderisthenight_music
This episode was recorded on 29 October 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.
Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.
Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor
Links:
Grasping At The Water by Chuditch - https://open.spotify.com/track/45G9QOQvNEDStAiqrumD9D?si=a0d222dafc6a4a56
Music Video to Grasping at the Water - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Da5zJwzbpc
Let’s get social:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast
CREDITS
Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor
Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel
Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel
—------------------------------------------------
00:08 - Alexis (Host)
Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
Hi Leigh,
00:48 - Leigh (Guest)
Hi!
00:49 - Alexis (Host)
How you going?
00:50 - Leigh (Guest)
I'm good, how are you?
00:51 - Alexis (Host)
Welcome to Through the Creative Door.
00:54 - Leigh (Guest)
Thank you for having me.
00:55 - Alexis (Host)
Oh, my goodness, I'm so excited that you're here. You are such a talented bear. You do lots of things, thank you very much. Lots and lots of things, things that people might not see all the time.
01:07 - Leigh (Guest)
No, probably not no.
01:09 - Alexis (Host)
No.
01:10 - Leigh (Guest)
And that's sometimes a good thing.
01:11 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, yeah. You have been part of heaps of different ensembles over the years, so you were a very accomplished musician yourself, and you've also seen how the industry works and given back in lots of different ways. Why I wanted to chat to you is because, all of that stems from creativity and I would be curious to know what, for you, is a creative space.
01:45 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, look, I think that's all I have going for me in a lot of ways is because I wouldn't really even consider myself a musician.
02:01 - Alexis (Host)
Which I find very hard to believe, considering that you play so many things.
02:07 - Leigh (Guest)
No, I enjoy marking around on them, but I feel like my niche has more been coordinating other people that are creative as well in some ways. Well, that's what I think everything has sort of led me to. That's that, like, I still love creating for myself, but I think yeah, it's a weird one I don't necessarily think. I still don't feel like I understand music at all. I hid my masters of theory books that were up on this and I just hid them because I was like I don't want people to see that I'm still trying to do level one. But yeah, no, we're all still learning.
02:56 - Alexis (Host)
But yeah, no, we're all still learning.
02:58 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, we are, we are. But I guess you know it's. I think that's what I've found. Like I have ideas and then I am good at trying to make them come to fruition. I think that's been my strength in this industry. Yeah, I think that's and that's. Yeah, you're going to be comfortable with what your strengths are.
03:21 - Alexis (Host)
That's true. That's true, and we're in your little. I don't want to say dungeon, but.
03:26 - Leigh (Guest)
It's been said before
03:30 - Alexis (Host)
It has been said before. But this is your office, your, your space.
03:35 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, I guess when you sort of said that I you know what is your creative space. I have been living the share house life for 18 years, I reckon at least since I finished high school pretty much and I was trying to think like where is there a specific place that I feel creative and I couldn't really pin down an exact thing. I think one of the things I really love about being creative are those Eureka moments, those things that come from being unplanned, that just sort of. And it's a detriment to me as well, because I feel like a lot of my songwriting I rely on that feeling to feel like I'm doing something good, whereas I think good creatives don't wait for that feeling. They just work. It's like a job, they just sort of work through things, they wait for inspiration and stuff, but they don't have to feel this massive elation to be like, oh, I'm doing something, that's good. They just consistently work at it.
04:50
But I could say that I guess I felt for the consistent thing I've had for 18, those 18 years and probably longer is actually this desk. This desk belonged to my great grandfather and then it was my dad's and then, I reckon, since I was about eight or nine. We had some refurbishments in my house and this desk was sort of shoved into the bedroom that me and my brother had and you can see there's like holes in it from where extra shelves were added like alarm clocks and stuff, and all down the front of the drawers there are stickers that came from. Do you remember, like those scholastic book fairs?
05:38 - Leigh(Guest)
That came to the libraries and stuff. I think I bought a sticker book or something and it was all around. I think it was the Atlanta Olympics in 2006 or something.
05:48 - Alexis (Host)
Oh yeah, I see gold medals.
05:50 - Leigh(Guest)
Gold medals and country flags and all this rubbish. So it stuck with me. I've dragged it around to pretty much every share house that I've lived in. This desk has gone with me and it's kind of this drawer here at the bottom. I've decided to repurpose it but for I reckon since I was probably 15, 16, when I started to be a songwriter, I used to, whenever I'd have those little Eureka moments, I would write the lyrics down on a piece of scrap paper and it would go into this drawer and then when I would have a song idea or when I'd finally had sort of a melody or a chord progression, I would start pulling out all those little slips of paper and start jigsawing the lyrics together. And that's how I've kind of always worked as a songwriter is sort of having little ideas and almost trying to fit them together, and I don't know if I would recommend it as a songwriting technique. I know INXS used it.
07:02
They said they used to use like a washing basket or something and they would fill that up.
07:08 - Alexis (Host)
I think there's a mod. I swear I've heard on the grapevine there's a modern band who has a spreadsheet and they have little bits that they put in as well.
07:17 - Leigh (Guest)
Well, I mean nowadays I use my phone and that's I always put my. I have a couple of notes where it's just ideas, but yeah, for a long time they went into that drawer and then I'd pull them out and they were the most disgusting scraps of paper. Yeah, a lot of my early songwriting ideas came because I grew up on a dairy farm. It would happen when washing down the yard, at the end of milking or during often during milking, because you'd be singing little songs in your head or just thinking about life in general or anything. And you know it's something that I've sort of picked up.
08:01
You know I really love watching documentaries and stuff, but I think being bored Paul Kelly said being bored was a really important part of being a songwriter or being creative is having that time where there's nothing else interesting you. And I know Elliot Smith, he used to love working really boring, laborious jobs like plastering or making mud for bricklaying or something like that. I think he used to do a lot of those sorts of labour jobs where you could be incredibly repetitive and not actually put much thought into what you're doing and that way you had space to be somewhat creative but also you weren't exhausting your mind during the day.
08:47 - Alexis (Host)
I can empathize with that. I find, when I do long-haul drives.
08:53 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, yeah I do love driving. I used to love. I, yeah I often people sort of go why don't you put the radio on when you're driving? It's like that's the best time. It's just having some science. But the frustrating part is when you do have an idea and then you have to somehow get it down and sometimes rocked up to places. I've got scribble notes my thighs. Yeah, I've written it like just grabbed a pen written it on my thigh as I'm driving or when you get to a traffic light or something like that.
09:21 - Alexis (Host)
I've definitely had to pull up. I'll be like doing a hundred and ten somewhere and having to like pull straight up so I can do a voice memo.
09:28 - Leigh (Guest)
I think, yeah, I think it's more scary when you've actually got a melody idea, because then it's, you can write down words. But you know, having all those that's a lot harder to remember. I think. Well, for me anyway.
09:39
No, I can't so yeah, I guess, if we're gonna talk about some sort of consistent space, this, this desk, would be one. When, when I had my first band, Louis and The Honky Tonk, and we used to do a lot of artwork, I quickly realized why am I paying other people to try and come up with band posters and stuff? Just make it yourself. Not really realizing, I was totally and totally am and still quite inept with like any sort of photoshopping or anything like that.
10:12 - Alexis (Host)
So, off the back of that, you have done so many things and I'm sure you will continue doing so many things, but is there a body of work or something that you're the most proud of creating, and how did it come about?
10:25 - Leigh (Guest)
if we were talking about me as an artist, I would say this song Grasping At The Water. I felt like I got it was it was. I just felt like I got most things right with it. Like the chord progression is very easy and that's because I did it. The drums are very simple, but I just got the right people to do them and that they sort of took something very simple and made it interesting, which I think is really, I think the listeners really like. I think people like that, you know, not that it's had any massive traction or anything, but I think there's really something to something being very simple but done in a way that makes it interesting, rather than, you know, if you do try and do something simple that sounds complicated or something that sounds simple and is simple, it just doesn't quite get people. But if it's something that's, yeah, simple but interesting, or I think the flip side of that, you have to do something that's complicated that sounds simple. But I was very proud of that song.
11:34 - Alexis (Host)
I mean, and the accompanying music video.
11:40 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, that worked out particularly well as well. It’s funny, the video is of me somewhat getting, I get shaved and I get my teeth brushed and, but it's all done through the lens of almost a Instagram filter and there's people commenting and the comments would affect what the hands coming into the footage would be doing to me. I guess that's the one of the not a flaw. But the song was written as a sort of description. It was meant to be a metaphor for how, in particular through social media, it was hard to do anything right, like anything you tried to do, there'd be people that would disagree with you, and in writing the song, I sort of set up a metaphor of it. You know, in particular, I felt you know women.
12:27
It was particularly hard to be able to do anything correct, like it's a pretty difficult space and women probably get criticized far more than men in that space, you know, unfairly, in particular. If we’re being selfish, that's a creative thing that I'm very proud of. I guess on a bigger scale, the Tender Is The Night music series. Like that came about during COVID lockdowns, when a bunch of friends of mine who were composers and string players had 12 months of work cancelled because no one knew if it was going to happen or what was going to work. And some of them had mortgages and stuff and they're just freaking out.
13:16
And everyone was coming together as a community and really trying to help. And I was being a bit extremely naive, like thinking back and just going you're an idiot. But I had, you know, a few thousand dollars in my account and in my savings account and I was, like, you know, I've had this idea for a little while. After working with Beck on having strings on my songs, I was thinking, you know, I feel like that's something everyone, every musician, really wants to do is have that, you know, Nirvana unplugged moment where you're getting to play with string players and stuff, or The Verve Bittersweet Symphony, you know, like we all think of. It's a really kind of, it's something that almost feels out of reach to, I think, contemporary artists having a quartet play your music.
14:04 - Alexis (Host)
Yeah, such a special feeling and sound that yeah, unless, of course, someone's going to encourage you to go into that space, perhaps. Yeah a little, like you said, a little out of reach.
14:16 - Leigh (Guest)
It does, and I guess. So I decided to commission a few composer friends to write some music, and it just grew into a small little show with Tanaya Harper, who was amazing. And then we sort of went, oh wow, this, this works, maybe we should do another one. So we got another artist and then another artist and it just then, all of a sudden, another friend sort of took, took it to a council and said this looks like something you guys should be doing, like support these people.
14:50
And so now it's turned into you know, we're just entering our fourth season and still, you know, trying to support composers and, you know, upcoming composers and string players, and but also giving this opportunity to contemporary musicians to to have their music with a quartet and hear it in a different way. An what I think I really like, what I really like about strings is you can hear what people are still saying. You like so that the message of their words which is what I'm really passionate about with music was, to start with, was the words that still comes across, and and often the strings really enhance what's trying to be said.
15:37 - Alexis (Host)
They’re so emotive.
15:41 - Leigh (Guest)
Yeah, they are, they're incredibly emotive. So, yeah, I feel like that's being particularly as it sort of came for me at a really important time in my life where I didn't feel like I was contributing so the music community anymore, and I didn't know how I was going to contribute, going forward, it, it sort of it came as a real blessing. So I feel like it's something that's bigger, way bigger than me now and way more important than then just my feeling good about myself and helping those friends. It's, it's, you know, it's something special.
16:19 - Alexis (Host)
So flipping that coin on it's head yeah. Has there been a time or a season that has challenged your creativity, and what was the major lesson?
16:37 - Leigh (Guest)
I still haven't got the lesson out of it, maybe. Okay, still something I'm working on. I had some mental health struggles and I kind of realized that the way that I was trying to write songs, having those Eureka moments, wasn't healthy for my mental health. I was ruminating a lot on things that were going on in my life and I guess to me those song lyric parts and what part of the reason probably why I like Grasping At the Water is, I felt like they were really complete lyrics and said exactly what I was feeling or what would I was trying to say. But in doing that I was having was ruminating on things that weren't healthy to ruminate on for a long periods of time. I was being very self-critical and very harsh on myself, maybe, and it just wasn't healthy, and so the realization was I can't keep putting myself In that position to create art. So I sort of walked away. Not well, I had it, didn't walk away. I finished a few songs and I definitely finished them from a healthier position, but they still probably aren't incredibly healthy songs.
17:56
After Grasping The Water, I released Cue The Violins, which is pretty much exactly about what I'm saying is like cue the violins oh, you know you're feeling sad, you know like, but it was all about I've got something that I need to talk to someone about, you know, and I guess there was somewhat a bit of a guilt about talking about your feelings and but you know the song, the first line, so “I want to separate the fiction from my fate.” You know that, that fiction that I was creating in my head to almost work myself into a state where I felt comfortable with those lyrics, that I felt they were good enough to be in a song, you know, but in a way I was creating a fate for myself that wasn't really where I wanted to go. So I had to sort of stop that and I've sort of said to myself I need to discover a way of a more healthy relationship with writing songs.
18:56 - Alexis (Host)
It brings me into my next question. Yeah, is there an object or a thing that you can't live without when you create?
19:07 - James (Guest)
To me, I've have one of these in my hands quite a lot especially if I'm bored,
19:11 - Alexis (Host)
For those who are listening, it is a cricket ball.
19:17 - James (Guest)
And I'll spend a lot of time leaning back in my chair just throwing it into the air, watching the seam rotate, as if I'm, you know, bowling a ball to swing, yeah, and trying to get that into the right positions.
19:30 - Alexis (Host)
But just, perhaps, maybe that's your object that keeps you I don't know grounded while you're yeah, I think.
19:36 - Leigh (Guest)
Well, it's like I said about the Paul Kelly thing about being bored and you know, maybe when you're trying to think something over, just having some something, that I find it really hard to just stay in one spot. If I’m being creative, I like to be walking, moving sometimes, and sometimes that's good, but sometimes if you're trying to finish something, it's counter-intuitive.
20:01
And you know, if you just need to stay at your computer for a moment, like sometimes, like alright, I'm just going to throw a ball for a moment and it’ll, keeps you in your seat, keeps you from getting up yeah, I love that.
20:13 - Alexis (Host)
Off the back of that, if you could give one piece of advice, nugget of advice to another creative. What would it be?
20:23 - Leigh (Guest)
In some ways I think you really need to be like laser, laser beam focused. Like I said, I've got lots of gear and some.
20:35
I reckon that takes up a huge amount of space in my head and always has for some reason, like I've always had a bit of an obsession with the gear and you know you'd go on pages and look up what guitar pedal someone's using or how what guitar amps they're using, and then it turned into an obsession about microphones and like reading up on studios and recording. And you know, buying gear and to buy gear you have to keep working and so you get a job that pays well. And then you know I got into drums. So I started buying heaps of drums and all this sort of stuff, all this sort of stuff. But the truth is it's not important and, you know, stupidly, my dad's not a musician but he told me that it's very early on. It's like you don't need that to do what you're doing. You know, but he's just, he's just as bad. He's always going through the Farm Weekly which is the magazine that you'd get every fortnight or something looking at tractors and the latest you know, machinery and stuff.
21:37
So I probably got it from him to be honest but he was, you know he was probably trying to be honest with me. It's like, do you actually need that to do what you're going to do? And it feels good to have a nice guitar in your hands, it feels good to have drums and they can be inspiring, but it doesn't stop you from writing a song. Having a, being in a fancy studio doesn't necessarily stop you from recording. So that leading into, like having that laser focus on what it is exactly you're trying to do.
22:09
And you know I also flip side saying you know, going into producing, so producing shows, going into trying to manage a band that you're in, trying to, and I've worked in the music industry as a stage manager and a backline manager and a guitar tech and a sound person they're all great things and they're all things that stem from that love of music.
22:34
But they take you away from, maybe, what you were trying to do to start with and you spend too much time, you spend your weekends doing stuff for other people. Sometimes you get so caught up in what you think you are and what you think you're trying to do that you don't hear what the world's actually saying. Actually, you're really good at this, you know that's what you should be focusing on, so that could in some ways that could take you away from what you really should, what that laser focus, but in some, but in some ways it's really important to be open to those other possibilities because they will lead you to who you maybe you actually are and what you are actually good at. I don't know if that was a great answer.
23:28 - Alexis (Host)
It's a great answer. I love it. I love it. One last question if you could have anyone come on to the podcast next and answer these questions, who would they be and why?
23:39 - Leigh (Guest)
Ian Grandage, who is like the Perth Festival director. I guess he would be pretty amazing because not only is he a classical composer, but he's now sort of been curating a festival and I think that that would be incredibly like so, so freaking hard, and I you know, it'd be amazing to know how he does that
24:05 - Alexis (Host)
Well, I'll see what I could do. Maybe he’ll be on a future podcast.
24:09 - Leigh (Guest)
Who knows?
24:10 - Alexis (Host)
Leigh, thank you so much for speaking on Through The Creative Door with me
24:14 -Leigh (Guest)
No worries, thank you so much for considering me.
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