Episodit
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Guests:
Umesh Shankar, Distinguished Engineer, Chief Technologist for Google Cloud Security
Scott Coull, Head of Data Science Research, Google Cloud Security
Topics:
What does it mean to âteach AI securityâ? How did we make SecLM? And also: why did we make SecLM?
What can âsecurity trained LLMâ do better vs regular LLM?
Does making it better at security make it worse at other things that we care about?
What can a security team do with it today? What are the âstarter use casesâ for SecLM?
What has been the feedback so far in terms of impact - both from practitioners but also from team leaders?Are we seeing the limits of LLMs for our use cases? Is the âLLM is not magicâ finally dawning?
Resources:
âHow to tackle security tasks and workflows with generative AIâ (Google Cloud Next 2024 session on SecLM)
EP136 Next 2023 Special: Building AI-powered Security Tools - How Do We Do It?
EP144 LLMs: A Double-Edged Sword for Cloud Security? Weighing the Benefits and Risks of Large Language Models
Supercharging security with generative AI
Secure, Empower, Advance: How AI Can Reverse the Defenderâs Dilemma?
Considerations for Evaluating Large Language Models for Cybersecurity Tasks
Introducing Googleâs Secure AI Framework
Deep Learning Security and Privacy Workshop
Security Architectures for Generative AI Systems
ACM Workshop on Artificial Intelligence and Security
Conference on Applied Machine Learning in Information Security
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Speakers:
Maria Riaz, Cloud Counter-Abuse, Engineering Lead, Google Cloud
Topics:
What is âcounter abuseâ? Is this the same as security?
What does counter-abuse look like for GCP?
What are the popular abuse types we face?
Do people use stolen cards to get accounts to then violate the terms with?
How do we deal with this, generally?
Beyond core technical skills, what are some of the relevant competencies for working in this space that would appeal to a diverse set of audience?
You have worked in academia and industry. What similarities or differences have you observed?
Resources / reading:
Video
EP165 Your Cloud Is Not a Pet - Decoding 'Shifting Left' for Cloud Security
P161 Cloud Compliance: A Lawyer - Turned Technologist! - Perspective on Navigating the Cloud
âArt of Warâ by Sun Tzu
âDare to Leadâ by Brene Brown
"Multipliers" by Liz Wiseman -
Puuttuva jakso?
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Guests:
Evan Gilman, co-founder CEO of Spirl
Eli Nesterov, co-founder CTO of Spril
Topics:
Today we have IAM, zero trust and security made easy. With that intro, could you give us the 30 second version of what a workload identity is and why people need them?
Whatâs so spiffy about SPIFFE anyway?
Whatâs different between this and micro segmentation of your networkâwhy is one better or worse?
You call your book âsolving the bottom turtleâ could you tell us what that means?
What are the challenges youâre seeing large organizations run into when adopting this approach at scale?
Of all the things a CISO could prioritize, why should this one get added to the list? What makes this, which is so core to our internal security modelâripe for the outside world?
How people do it now, what gets thrown away when you deploy SPIFFE? Are there alternative?
SPIFFE is interesting, yet can a startup really âsolve for the bottom turtleâ?
Resources:
SPIFFE and Spirl
âSolving the Bottom Turtleâ book [PDF, free]
âSurely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!â book [also, one of Antonâs faves for years!]
âZero Trust Networksâ book
Workload Identity Federation in GCP -
Guest:
Ahmad Robinson, Cloud Security Architect, Google Cloud
Topics:
Youâve done a BlackHat webinar where you discuss a Pets vs Cattle mentality when it comes to cloud operations. Can you explain this mentality and how it applies to security?
What in your past led you to these insights? Tell us more about your background and your journey to Google. How did that background contribute to your team?
One term that often comes up on the show and with our customers is 'shifting left.' Could you explain what 'shifting left' means in the context of cloud security? Whatâs hard about shift left, and where do orgs get stuck too far right?
A lot of âcloud peopleâ talk about IaC and PaC but the terms and the concepts are occasionally confusing to those new to cloud. Can you briefly explain Policy as Code and its security implications? Does PaC help or hurt security?
Resources:
âNo Pets Allowed - Mastering The Basics Of Cloud Infrastructureâ webinar
EP33 Cloud Migrations: Security Perspectives from The Field
EP126 What is Policy as Code and How Can It Help You Secure Your Cloud Environment?
EP138 Terraform for Security Teams: How to Use IaC to Secure the Cloud
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Guest:
Jennifer Fernick, Senor Staff Security Engineer and UTL, Google
Topics:
Since one of us (!) doesn't have a PhD in quantum mechanics, could you explain what a quantum computer is and how do we know they are on a credible path towards being real threats to cryptography? How soon do we need to worry about this one?
Weâve heard that quantum computers are more of a threat to asymmetric/public key crypto than symmetric crypto. First off, why? And second, what does this difference mean for defenders?
Why (how) are we sure this is coming? Are we mitigating a threat that is perennially 10 years ahead and then vanishes due to some other broad technology change?
What is a post-quantum algorithm anyway? If weâre baking new key exchange crypto into our systems, how confident are we that we are going to be resistant to both quantum and traditional cryptanalysis?
Why does NIST think it's time to be doing the PQC thing now? Where is the rest of the industry on this evolution?
How can a person tell the difference here between reality and snakeoil? I think Anton and I both responded to your initial email with a heavy dose of skepticism, and probably more skepticism than it deserved, so you get the rare on-air apology from both of us!
Resources:
Securing tomorrow today: Why Google now protects its internal communications from quantum threats
How Google is preparing for a post-quantum world
NIST PQC standards
PQ Crypto conferences
âQuantum Computation & Quantum Informationâ by Nielsen & Chuang book
âQuantum Computing Since Democritusâ by Scott Aaronson book
EP154 Mike Schiffman: from Blueboxing to LLMs via Network Security at Google
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Guest:
Phil Venables, Vice President, Chief Information Security Officer (CISO) @ Google Cloud
Topics:
You had this epic 8 megatrends idea in 2021, where are we now with them?
We now have 9 of them, what made you add this particular one (AI)?
A lot of CISOs fear runaway AI. Hence good governance is key! What is your secret of success for AI governance?
What questions are CISOs asking you about AI? What questions about AI should they be asking that they are not asking?
Which one of the megatrends is the most contentious based on your presenting them worldwide?
Is cloud really making the world of IT simpler (megatrend #6)?
Do most enterprise cloud users appreciate the software-defined nature of cloud (megatrend #5) or do they continue to fight it?
Which megatrend is manifesting the most strongly in your experience?
Resources:
Megatrends drive cloud adoptionâand improve security for all and infographic
âKeynote | The Latest Cloud Security Megatrend: AI for Securityâ
âLessons from the future: Why shared fate shows us a better cloud roadmapâ blog and shared fate page
SAIF page
âSpotlighting âshadow AIâ: How to protect against risky AI practicesâ blog
EP135 AI and Security: The Good, the Bad, and the Magical
EP47 Megatrends, Macro-changes, Microservices, Oh My! Changes in 2022 and Beyond in Cloud Security
Secure by Design by CISA
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Guest:
Kat Traxler, Security Researcher, TrustOnCloud
Topics:
What is your reaction to âin the cloud you are one IAM mistake away from a breachâ? Do you like it or do you hate it?
A lot of people say âin the cloud, you must do IAM ârightââ. What do you think that means? What is the first or the main idea that comes to your mind when you hear it?
How have you seen the CSPs take different approaches to IAM? What does it mean for the cloud users?
Why do people still screw up IAM in the cloud so badly after years of trying?
Deeper, why do people still screw up resource hierarchy and resource management?
Are the identity sins of cloud IAM users truly the sins of the creators? How did the "big 3" get it wrong and how does that continue to manifest today?
Your best cloud IAM advice is âassign roles at the lowest resource-level possibleâ, please explain this one? Where is the magic?
Resources:
Video (Linkedin, YouTube)
Kat blog
âDiving Deeply into IAM Policy Evaluationâ blog
âComplexity: a Guided Tourâ book
EP141 Cloud Security Coast to Coast: From 2015 to 2023, What's Changed and What's the Same?
EP129 How CISO Cloud Dreams and Realities Collide
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Guest:
Victoria Geronimo, Cloud Security Architect, Google Cloud
Topics:
You work with technical folks at the intersection of compliance, security, and cloud. So what do you do, and where do you find the biggest challenges in communicating across those boundaries?
How does cloud make compliance easier? Does it ever make compliance harder?
What is your best advice to organizations that approach cloud compliance as they did for the 1990s data centers and classic IT?
What has been the most surprising compliance challenge youâve helped teams debug in your time here?
You also work on standards development âcan you tell us about how you got into that and whatâs been surprising in that for you?
We often say on this show that an organizationâs ability to threat model is only as good as their teamâs perspectives are diverse: how has your background shaped your work here?
Resources:
Video (YouTube)EP14 Making Compliance Cloud-native
EP25 Beyond Compliance: Cloud Security in Europe
Fordham University Law and Technology site
IAPP site
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Guest:
Merritt Baer, Field CTO, Lacework, ex-AWS, ex-USG
Topics:
How can organizations ensure that their security posture is maintained or improved during a cloud migration? Is cloud migration a risk reduction move?
What are some of the common security challenges that organizations face during a cloud migration?
Are there different gotchas between the three public clouds?What advice would you give to those security leaders who insist on lift/shift or on lift/shift first?
How should security and compliance teams approach their engineering and DevOps colleagues to make sure things are starting on the right foot?
In your view, what is the essence of a cloud-native approach to security?
How can organizations ensure that their security posture scales as their cloud usage grows?
Resources:
Video (LinkedIn, YouTube)EP69 Cloud Threats and How to Observe Them
EP138 Terraform for Security Teams: How to Use IaC to Secure the Cloud
EP67 Cyber Defense Matrix and Does Cloud Security Have to DIE to Win?
9 Megatrends drive cloud adoptionâand improve security for all
Darknet Diaries podcast
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Guests:
Emre Kanlikilicer, Senior Engineering Manager @ Google
Sophia Gu, Engineering Manager at Google
Topics
Workspace makes the claim that unlike other productivity suites available today, itâs architectured for the modern threat landscape. Thatâs a big claim! What gives Google the ability to make this claim?
Workspace environments would have many different types of data, some very sensitive. What are some of the common challenges with controlling access to data and protecting data in hybrid work?
What are some of the common mistakes you see customers making with Workspace security?
What are some of the ways context aware access and DLP (now SDP) help with this?
What are the cool future plans for DLP and CAA?
Resources:
Google Workspace blog & Workspace Update blog
EP99 Google Workspace Security: from Threats to Zero Trust
CISA Zero Trust Maturity Model 2.0
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Guest:
Jason Solomon, Security Engineer, Google
Topics:
Could you share a bit about when you get pulled into incidents and what are your goals when you are?
How does that change in the cloud? How do you establish a chain of custody and prove it for law enforcement, if needed?
What tooling do you rely on for cloud forensics and is that tooling available to "normal people"?
How do we at Google know when itâs time to call for help, and how should our customers know that itâs time?
Can I quote Ray Parker Jr and ask, who you gonna call?
Whatâs your advice to a security leader on how to âprepare for the inevitableâ in this context?
Cloud forensics - is it easier or harder than the 1990s classic forensics?
Resource:
EP157 Decoding CDR & CIRA: What Happens When SecOps Meets Cloud
EP98 How to Cloud IR or Why Attackers Become Cloud Native Faster?
EP103 Security Incident Response and Public Cloud - Exploring with Mandiant
Google SRE Workbook (Ch 9)
GRR
Cloud Logging
LibCloudForensics, Turbinia, Timesketch tools
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Guest:
Arie Zilberstein, CEO and Co-Founder at Gem Security
Topics:
How does Cloud Detection and Response (CDR) differ from traditional, on-premises detection and response?
What are the key challenges of cloud detection and response?
Often we lift and shift our teams to Cloud, and not always for bad reasons, so whatâs your advice on how to teach the old dogs new tricks: âon-premise-trainedâ D&R teams and cloud D&R?
What is this new CIRA thing that Gartner just cooked up? Should CIRA exist as a separate market or technology or is this just a slice of CDR or even SIEM perhaps?
What do you tell people who say that âSIEM is their CDRâ?
What are the key roles and responsibilities of the CDR team? How is the cloud D&R process related to DevOps and cloud-style IT processes?
Resources:
Video version of this episode
Cloud breaches databases
EP98 How to Cloud IR or Why Attackers Become Cloud Native Faster?
EP103 Security Incident Response and Public Cloud - Exploring with Mandiant
EP76 Powering Secure SaaS ⊠But Not with CASB? Cloud Detection and Response?
9 Megatrends drive cloud adoptionâand improve security for all
âEmerging Tech: Security â Cloud Investigation and Response Automation (CIRA) Offers Transformation Opportunitiesâ (Gartner access required)
âDoes the World Need Cloud Detection and Response (CDR)?â blog
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Guest:
Sandra Joyce, VP at Mandiant Intelligence
Topics:
Could you give us a brief overview of what this power disruption incident was about?
This incident involved both Living Off the Land and attacks on operational technology (OT). Could you explain to our audience what these mean and what the attacker did here?
We also saw a wiper used to hide forensics, is that common these days?
Did the attacker risk tipping their hand about upcoming physical attacks? If weâd seen this intrusion earlier, might we have understood the attackerâs next moves?
How did your team establish robust attribution in this case, and how they do it in general? How sure are we, really?
Could you share how this came about and maybe some of the highlights in our relationship helping defend that country?
Resources:
Sandworm Disrupts Power in Ukraine Using a Novel Attack Against Operational Technology | Mandiant
Andy Greenbergâs book Sandworm
EP155 Cyber, Geopolitics, AI, Cloud - All in One Book?
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Guests:
Derek Reveron, Professor and Chair of National Security at the US Naval War College John Savage, An Wang Professor Emeritus of Computer Science of Brown UniversityTopics:
You wrote a book on cyber and war, how did this come about and what did you most enjoy learning from the other during the writing process?
Is generative AI going to be a game changer in international relations and war, or is it just another tool?
You also touch briefly on lethal autonomous weapons systems and ethicsâthat feels like the genie is right in the very neck of the bottle right now, is it too late?
Aside from this book, and the awesome course you offered at Brown that sparked Timâs interest in this field, how can we democratize this space better?
How does the emergence and shift to Cloud impact security in the cyber age?
What are your thoughts on the intersection of Cloud as a set of technologies and operating model and state security (like sovereignty)? Does Cloud make espionage harder or easier?
Resources:
âSecurity in the Cyber Ageâ book (and their other booksâ)
âThinking, Fast and Slowâ book
âNo Shortcuts: Why States Struggle to Develop a Military Cyber-Forceâ book
âThe Perfect Weapon: War, Sabotage, and Fear in the Cyber Ageâ book
âActive Cyber Defense: Applying Air Defense to the Cyber Domainâ
EP141 Cloud Security Coast to Coast: From 2015 to 2023, What's Changed and What's the Same?
EP145 Cloud Security: Shared Responsibility, Shared Fate, Shared Faith?
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Guest:
Mike Schiffman, Network Security âUTLâ
Topics:
Given your impressive and interesting history, tell us a few things about yourself?
What are the biggest challenges facing network security today based on your experience?
You came to Google to work on Network Security challenges. What are some of the surprising ones youâve uncovered here?
What lessons from Google's approach to network security absolutely donât apply to others? Which ones perhaps do?
If you have to explain the difference between network security in the cloud and on-premise, what comes to mind first?
How do we balance better encryption with better network security monitoring and detection?
Speaking of challenges in cryptography, weâre all getting fired up about post-quantum and network security. Could you give us the maybe 5 minute teaser version of this because we have an upcoming episode dedicated to this?
I hear you have some interesting insight on LLMs, something to do with blueboxing or something. What is that about?
Resources:
Video
EP113 Love it or Hate it, Network Security is Coming to the Cloud
EP122 Firewalls in the Cloud: How to Implement Trust Boundaries for Access Control
âA History of Fake Things on the Internetâ by WALTER J. SCHEIRER
Why Google now protects its internal communications from quantum threats
How Google is preparing for a post-quantum world
NIST on PQC
âSmashing The Stack For Fun And Profitâ (yes, really) -
Guest:
Kevin Mandia, CEO at Mandiant, part of Google Cloud
Topics:
When you look back, what were the most surprising cloud breaches in 2023, and what can we learn from them? How were they different from the âold worldâ of on-prem breaches?
For a long time itâs felt like incident response has been an on-prem specialization, and that adversaries are primarily focused on compromising on-prem infrastructure. Who are we seeing go after cloud environments? The same threat actors or not?
Could you share a bit about the mistakes and risks that you saw organizations make that made their cloud breaches possible or made them worse? Conversely, what ended up being helpful to organizations in limiting the blast radius or making response easier?
Timâs mother worked in a network disaster recovery team for a long timeâtheir motto was âpreparing for the inevitable.â What advice do you have for helping security teams and IT teams get ready for cloud breaches? Especially for recent cloud entrants?
Anton tells his â2000 IDS storyâ (need to listen for details!) and asks: what approaches for detecting threats actually detects threats today?
Resources:
EP148 Decoding SaaS Security: Demystifying Breaches, Vulnerabilities, and Vendor Responsibilities
"Microsoft lost its keys, and the government got hacked" news article
SEC Charges SolarWinds and Chief Information Security Officer with Fraud, Internal Control Failures (must read by every CISO!)
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Guest:
Michee Smith, Director, Product Management for Global Affairs Works, Google
Topics:
What is Google Annual Transparency Report and how did we get started doing this?
Surely the challenge of a transparency report is that there are things we canât be transparent about, how do we balance this? What are those? Is it a safe question?
What Access Transparency Logs are and if they are connected to the report âother than in Tim's mind and your career?
Beyond building the annual transparency report, you also work on our central risk data platform. Every business has a problem managing riskâwhatâs special here? Do we have any Google magic here?
Could you tell us about your path in Product Management here? You have been here eight years, and recently became Director. Do you have any advice for the ambitious Google PMs listening to the show?
Resources:
Google Annual Transparency report
Access Transparency Logs
âDigital Asset Valuation and Cyber Risk Measurement: Principles of Cybernomicsâ book Keyun Ruan
âTrapped in a frame: Why leaders should avoid security framework trapsâ blog
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Guest:
Monica Shokrai, Head Of Business Risk and Insurance For Google Cloud
Topics:
Could you give us the 30 second run down of what cyber insurance is and isn't?
Can you tie that to clouds? How does the cloud change it? Is it the case that now I don't need insurance for some of the "old school" cyber risks?
What challenges are insurers facing with assessing cloud risks? On this show I struggle to find CISOs who "get" cloud, are there insurers and underwriters who get it?
We recently heard about an insurer reducing coverage for incidents caused by old CVEs! What's your take on this? Effective incentive structure to push orgs towards patching operational excellence or someone finding yet another way not to pay out? Is insurance the magic tool for improving security?
Doesn't cyber insurance have a difficult reputation with clients? âWill they even pay?â âWill it be enough?â âIs this a cyberwar exception?â type stuff?
How do we balance our motives between selling more cloud and providing effective risk underwriting data to insurers?
How soon do you think we will have actuarial data from many clients re: real risks in the cloud? What about the fact that risks change all the time unlike say many ânon cyberâ risks?
Resources:
Video (LinkedIn, YouTube)
Google Cloud Risk Protection program
âCyber Insurance Policyâ by Josephine Wolff
InsureSec
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Guest:
Dr Gary McGraw, founder of the Berryville Institute of Machine Learning
Topics:
Gary, youâve been doing software security for many decades, so tell us: are we really behind on securing ML and AI systems?
If not SBOM for data or âDBOMâ, then what? Can data supply chain tools or just better data governance practices help?
How would you threat model a system with ML in it or a new ML system you are building?
What are the key differences and similarities between securing AI and securing a traditional, complex enterprise system?
What are the key differences between securing the AI you built and AI you buy or subscribe to?
Which security tools and frameworks will solve all of these problems for us?Resources:
EP135 AI and Security: The Good, the Bad, and the MagicalGary McGraw books
âAn Architectural Risk Analysis Of Machine Learning Systems: Toward More Secure Machine Learningâ paper
âWhat to think about when youâre thinking about securing AIâ
Annotated ML Security bibliography
Tay bot story (2016)
âCan you melt eggs?â
âMicrosoft AI researchers accidentally leak 38TB of company dataâ
âRandom number generator attackâ
âGoogle's AI Red Team: the ethical hackers making AI saferâ
Introducing Googleâs Secure AI Framework -
Guests:
John Stoner, Principal Security Strategist, Google Cloud Security
Dave Herrald, Head of Adopt Engineering, Google Cloud Security
Topics:
In your experience, past and present, what would make clients trust vendor detection content?
Regarding âcannedâ, default or âout-of-the-boxâ detections, how to make them more production quality and not merely educational samples to learn from?
What is more important, seeing the detection or being able to change it, or both?
If this is about seeing the detection code/content, what about ML and algorithms?
What about the SOC analysts who don't read the code?
What about âtuningâ - is tuning detections a bad word now in 2023?
Everybody is obsessed about âfalse positives,â what about the false negatives? How are we supposed to eliminate them if we donât see detection logic?
Resources:
Video (Linkedin, YouTube)
Github rules for Chronicle
DetectionEngineering.net by Zack Allen
âOn Trust and Transparency in Detectionâ blog
âDetection as Code? No, Detection as COOKING!â blog
EP64 Security Operations Center: The People Side and How to Do it Right
EP108 How to Hunt the Cloud: Lessons and Experiences from Years of Threat Hunting
EP75 How We Scale Detection and Response at Google: Automation, Metrics, Toil
Why is Threat Detection Hard?
Detection Engineering is Painful â and It Shouldnât Be (Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
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