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High-quality software is built by small, interdisciplinary teams aligned to a shared outcome. Teams that have a shared context, tight feedback loops, and free-flowing communication—attributes that are even more critical for a project with seemingly impossible requirements.
In this episode, Jerome met with 8th Light team members Mike Danaher and Hani Kruger about a recent project to create a prototype intended to attract potential investors. The constraint of an extremely tight timeline acted like a crucible for quality software practices, leaving little room for error. In this discussion, they dive into the project details and explain how a small team working closely together delivered an ios app as a high-fidelity prototype in 3 short weeks.
(02:09) - The idea(06:26) - Project kickoff(07:27) - Bringing in Design(12:04) - Communication across timezones(17:20) - Centering outcomes over outputs(19:28) - What was built(26:52) - The client as Product Manager(28:16) - Good, not great(29:40) - Lessons learned(35:04) - The resultMike Danaher is a project director and long-time leader at 8th Light. He joined the company in 2014, and he’s gone from a crafter to a project director with experience leading dozens of projects, legacy and greenfield alike.
Hani Kruger recently joined 8th Light as a UX designer. She has a background in research and usability and has worked in startup environments as well as big tech.
Jerome Goodrich leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems as a principal software crafter at 8th Light. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website.
You can listen to Collaborative Craft via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to subscribe to receive notifications of the latest episodes. And if you enjoy what you’re hearing, please consider leaving a review in Apple Podcasts. It really helps others find the show.
This podcast was produced in partnership with Dante32.
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These days it seems like everyone’s walking around with their head in a cloud. On-prem hardware has an almost antiquated feel, while serverless options promise reduced cost, greater scalability, and increased team productivity.
But is that really the case? To find out, Jerome talked with Bill Wanjohi, a principal crafter at 8th Light, who brings deep experience in web services, relational databases, batch data processing pipelines, and the support systems needed to deploy, maintain, and secure them. In other words, he has a ton of experience helping organizations manage the tradeoffs of different approaches to server management.
In this conversation, they dive into the world of serverless architectures by looking back at its technical foundations—defining the first steps into the cloud, exploring unintended consequences created, and questioning whether stopping at Docker containers would’ve been preferable.
(01:44) - Bill’s bona fides(04:07) - The technical foundation for serverless (05:12) - Hardware virtualization: the first sea change(08:40) - Proliferation of virtual private servers(11:51) - Docker containers: solving the portability problem(14:21) - Reintroducing old problems(17:17) - Defining serverless(20:25) - Containers as a Service(23:17) - An orchestration nightmare?(28:00) - The upside of AWS Lambda(36:07) - Is a serverless future inevitable?Jerome Goodrich leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems as a principal software crafter at 8th Light. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website.
Bill Wanjohi is a principal crafter at 8th Light who brings deep experience in web services, relational databases, batch data processing pipelines, and the support systems needed to deploy, maintain, and secure them. He’s currently leading a team of engineers building an auction platform with common building blocks, and he delivered an 8LU presentation on de-risking data migrations.
Prior to joining 8th Light Bill consulted as a generalist software engineer, began and led a DevOps practice at a fast-growing cloud-based product company, administered many flavors of relational and analytical databases in several contexts, and generally gravitated to messy systems problems.
Bill doesn’t consider himself a worrier by nature, but he doesn’t like getting caught flat-footed and has seen enough things go wrong that others might find him a tad paranoid.
You can listen to Collaborative Craft via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to subscribe to receive notifications of the latest episodes. And if you enjoy what you’re hearing, please consider leaving a review in Apple Podcasts. It really helps others...
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Will AI take our jobs? If only software was that simple. New technologies have a way of sparking our imagination in ways that don’t match the frustrating realities of integrating complex systems. Even a tool as thrilling as ChatGPT will only ever be able to work with what you give it, and integrations are full of underlying tradeoffs and contradictions at deeper levels of a system.
Low-code and no-code solutions can be convenient ways for teams to expand their capabilities within the happy-path use cases, but what happens when it’s time to pivot, and you need to add new software to your workflow? How can you innovate without causing a drag on your organization’s broader tech ecosystem?
In this episode, Jerome talks with Jeff Ramnani, principal crafter at 8th Light, about his recent internal talk, provocatively titled: Declarative Systems are a Lie. In this, he made a case for rethinking assumptions about some popular DevOps tools and considering downstream implications when making architectural decisions.
(02:50) - What the heck is a declarative system? (06:07) - When the system gets in the way of the solution(08:58) - Relative complexity of Chef vs Ansible(12:12) - Falling off the happy path(14:33) - Integrating no-code/low-code solutions(18:43) - How kludges are born(19:17) - Mind the escape hatch(23:07) - Living with legacy decisionsJeff Ramnani is an experienced software professional who has helped uncover and resolve issues across various layers of the tech stack, with a focus on building infrastructure operations tools that enable teams to be more productive and deliver high-quality software. Throughout his career, Jeff Ramnani has helped clients of all different sizes design and develop software systems that are robust and flexible to their needs. Since joining 8th Light, he has built on his generalist, technology-agnostic skill set to become a Technical Expert in DevOps.
Jerome Goodrich leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems as a principal software crafter at 8th Light. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website.
You can listen to Collaborative Craft via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to subscribe to receive notifications of the latest episodes. And if you enjoy what you’re hearing, please consider leaving a review in Apple Podcasts. It really helps others find the show.
This podcast was produced in partnership with Dante32.
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In a continued series on all things data, Jerome meets with 8th Light Principal Crafters Myles Megyesi and Pierce Edmiston to talk about machine learning. Along with AI, it's an area of tech that gets a lot of attention and is often spoken about as some mysterious black box that can solve all the problems.
In this discussion, they break apart the black box and the various misconceptions surrounding ML by looking at how it’s implemented in real-world, production-level applications. They also cover the value of having data scientists and engineers working together on machine learning projects, and how all the usual rules and best practices for writing good code still apply.
(03:13) - Why all the hype?(07:39) - Avoiding Rube Goldberg traps(12:19) - Using Ml without a data science background(17:03) - Document AI - a case study on implementing an ML model(24:52) - Knowing the category of your machine learning problem (29:15) - Approaching ML like any other framework(31:28) - Is data engineering truly a unique skill set?Myles Megyesi loves design patterns, functional programming, and popcorn. He is an experienced software crafter who enjoys writing software and nurturing its constant growth into something tangible. Throughout his career at 8th Light, he has fulfilled several long-term engagements, focusing on database performance and coordinating distributed services.
Pierce Edmiston combines a background in scientific research and statistics with experience bringing data products from R&D to product systems. He's worked with data teams at many levels of an organization, and he's passionate about bringing quality software tools and practices that enable data science teams to find more insights with more predictable data.
Jerome Goodrich leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems as a principal software crafter at 8th Light. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website.
You can listen to Collaborative Craft via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to subscribe to receive notifications of the latest episodes. And if you enjoy what you’re hearing, please consider leaving a review in Apple Podcasts. It really helps others find the show.
This podcast was produced in partnership with Dante32.
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Kicking off a new series on all things data, Jerome talks with Brad Ediger, 8th Light's Head of Technology, about the state of data engineering, and takes the opportunity to scratch beneath the surface of Brad’s notorious optimism. They also dive into common challenges businesses face when dealing with data before doing a bit of time-traveling—looking at what’s possible today that was unthinkable 10 years ago, and speculating on where the industry might be a decade from now.
(01:59) - Brad’s background(03:41) - Optimistic perspective(06:41) - Challenge: Legacy System Maintenance(08:55) - Challenge: Lack of Standardization(11:30) - Challenge: Change Management(13:04) - Conway’s Law(14:26) - Challenge: Data Provenance(15:53) - Advances: Cloud Offerings(19:05) - Advances: DevOps Practices(20:32) - Future Predictions: Immutable Data & Abstractions(23:57) - Future Predictions: Database Models(29:23) - Later Discussions: Compliance & Risk Management(30:38) - Later Discussions: Machine LearningBrad Ediger has been a staple in the Chicago tech scene since 2005. As 8th Light’s Head of Technology, his focus is on growing 8th Light's profile as a software consultancy. He joined 8th Light in 2019 when he merged his independent consultancy with the company.
Brad specializes in connecting subject-matter experts with the tools they need to work more effectively — as exemplified by his success in supporting an e-commerce startup as they grew from five to 150 employees and through multiple rounds of investment. This includes providing wraparound software support, developing decision-support software, and using analytic data to optimize inventory dynamics.
In 2007, early in the life of the Ruby on Rails web framework, Brad authored Advanced Rails, a book that goes in-depth on ways for developers to use Rails to build applications that scale.
Jerome Goodrich leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems as a principal software crafter at 8th Light. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website.
You can listen to Collaborative Craft via Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don’t forget to subscribe to receive notifications of the latest episodes. And if you enjoy what you’re hearing, please consider leaving a review in Apple Podcasts. It really helps others find the show.
This podcast was produced in partnership with Dante32.
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Getting started in software development is more accessible than ever. Advancements in toolchains and frameworks have moved the starting point to a higher level where you can get results much more quickly. Beyond that baseline, developers and designers will still have to grow their skillsets to keep pace with the industry. For this, in-context, continuous learning is key.
To kick off season two, 8th Light Co-CEO and Co-Founder Paul Pagel joins Jerome to discuss cultivating a company culture that facilitates in-context learning and encourages collaboration across levels of experience. Paul shares actionable advice for building problem-solving confidence through repetition and investing in team education. They also explore generalist and specialist approaches to the craft, and what it looks like to create engaged, interdisciplinary teams.
Be sure to stick around to the end for a look into the future of software development, where Paul considers the opportunities for developers and designers in Web3 and the potential for the blockchain to change the economic incentives of contribution.
(1:55) – Advancements in the industry(4:00) – A career in software development today(5:30) – Generalists and specialists(9:58) – Team composition(12:17) – Learning + engagement = productivity(13:52) – Cultivating engagement(16:50) – GitHub and Builder DAO(19:22) – Economic incentives for contribution(21:00) – Team-based Web2 and individual-based Web3(22:25) – Autonomy and in-context learning(24:15) – Team charters(26:09) – A mentor, a peer group, and a communityAfter starting his career as a software developer, Paul Pagel has spent the last fifteen years helping 8th Light partner with teams in more than a dozen industries. He is overseeing the evolution of the apprenticeship program, helping to map the curriculum to market trends, and, more recently, Paul has been leading 8th Light into exciting engagements in Web3, data engineering, product design, and more.
Thomas Countz is a Senior Software Crafter at 8th Light where he works with a variety of ambitious teams on a variety of ambitious projects. A true curious nerd at heart, Thomas digs into everything from robotics and cider making to bouldering and Shakespeare’s comedies. To hear even more about Thomas, you can follow him on Twitter at @thomascountz and visit his blog at https://thomascountz.com.
Jerome Goodrich is an adoring husband, new dog dad, and all-around curious explorer. Through his work as a Principal Software Crafter at 8th Light, Jerome leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website: https://jeromegoodrich.com
8th Light partners with businesses and community groups to craft software that unlocks human potential and makes the world a better place. We’re passionate about designing for people, inspiring through education, and empowering the future. With teams spread across the globe—including Chicago, London, Los Angeles, New York, Austin, and Madison—we’re always eager to hear about ambitious new projects. Learn more about our team and reach out at https://8thlight.com
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“In my small way, hopefully I can help push society forward somewhat, in an as accessible way as possible. So you don't have to reinvent this particular wheel; you’ve got some kind of base you can build on. That's why I like to do stuff in public.“
Aaron Patterson is a stalwart of the Ruby community and current Senior Staff Engineer at Shopify. His latest project is TenderJIT and in this episode, he talks with Jerome and Thomas about how his hands-on learning approach created the path that led to writing a JIT compiler in Ruby. In a playful conversation, the three cover a variety of other topics including the connection between cheese-making and hardware development and how finding the “print” for your project is a shortcut to feedback loops. (01:52) - All about TenderJIT(04:37) - Is Ruby compiled?(06:50) - It’s like ERB for machine code(10:28) - Hands-on learning(13:55) - Pandemic hobbies(18:22) - Hardware development for cheesemaking(22:48) - From Java to Ruby(26:58) - The importance of asking why(32:55) - Figuring out project feedback loops(34:32) - Understanding multiple coding languages(36:13) - To type-check or not(44:05) - Investing time in commodity technologiesAaron Patterson, or Tenderlove as he is known on the internet, is a Senior Staff Engineer at Shopify. His primary focus is on Ruby and has been writing and maintaining gems, speaking at conferences and spreading Ruby's gospel for over a decade. Keep up with Aaron by following him on Twitter at @tenderlove and visit his blog at https://tenderlovemaking.com/.
Thomas Countz is a Senior Software Crafter at 8th Light where he works with a variety of ambitious teams on a variety of ambitious projects. A true curious nerd at heart, Thomas digs into everything from robotics and cider making to bouldering and Shakespeare’s comedies. To hear even more about Thomas, you can follow him on Twitter at @thomascountz and visit his blog at https://thomascountz.com.
Jerome Goodrich is an adoring husband, new dog dad, and all-around curious explorer. Through his work as a Principal Software Crafter at 8th Light, Jerome leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website: https://jeromegoodrich.com.
8th Light partners with businesses and community groups to craft software that unlocks human potential and makes the world a better place. We’re passionate about designing for people, inspiring through education, and empowering the future. With teams spread across the globe—including Chicago, London, Los Angeles, New York, Austin, and Madison—we’re always eager to hear about ambitious new projects. Learn more about our team and reach out at https://8thlight.com.
If you'd like to receive new episodes as they're published, please subscribe to Collaborative Craft in Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts,
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The speed of development and change in software engineering enables exponential growth and innovation. It can also give rise to ever-increasing complexity and the creation of critical, yet fragile, systems. Recently the idea of achieving observability has gained attention as an alternative approach to legacy tooling within complex distributed systems, where it’s simply not possible to monitor for every possible failure.
Charity Majors is the cofounder and CTO of honeycomb.io. On this week’s episode, Charity discusses observability not only as a practical tool for creating performant and reliable production services but also as part of a fundamental shift in the practice of software development as a whole.
(05:53) - Being an operations engineer(08:43) - Specialization, not separation(10:58) - Startups starting operations(14:24) - The most important thing an engineer can do(16:06) - Open telemetry(17:55) - The beginning of observability tooling(23:15) - Friction of midstream changes(25:43) - The value of metrics(29:17) - Coexisting with current solutions(33:21) - Draining workplace hierarchiesCheck out Charity’s The Engineer Manager Pendulum
Charity is the cofounder and CTO of honeycomb.io, and author of O'Reilly books on observability and database reliability engineering. You can find Charity at charity.wtf, honeycomb.io/blog, and on twitter @mipsytipsy
Thomas Countz is a Senior Software Crafter at 8th Light where he works with a variety of ambitious teams on a variety of ambitious projects. A true curious nerd at heart, Thomas digs into everything from robotics and cider making to bouldering and Shakespeare’s comedies. To hear even more about Thomas, you can follow him on Twitter at @thomascountz and visit his blog at https://thomascountz.com.
Jerome Goodrich is an adoring husband, new dog dad, and all-around curious explorer. Through his work as a Principal Software Crafter at 8th Light, Jerome leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website: https://jeromegoodrich.com
8th Light partners with businesses and community groups to craft software that unlocks human potential and makes the world a better place. We’re passionate about designing for people, inspiring through education, and empowering the future. With teams spread across the globe—including Chicago, London, Los Angeles, New York, Austin, and Madison—we’re always eager to hear about ambitious new projects. Learn more about our team and reach out at https://8thlight.com
If you'd like to receive new episodes as they're published, please subscribe to Collaborative Craft in Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts,
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Coraline Ehmke’s path to the tech industry was non-traditional. It took someone to turn the key for her to find the community that she sought. 25 years later, Coraline is still in the tech industry and has been open about her experience as a trans person.
Coraline is our guest this week on Collaborative Craft. She shared what it was like in the early days of the internet and how the smoking lounge was the great equalizer. Coraline also discussed the evolution of open-source communities and why it is important for her to talk publicly about her personal journey. Coraline is inspirational, listen to the episode for her insights.
6:46 - Early programming path11:55 - Smoke break networking14:29 - Growth of the tech community17:24 - Learning in public21:35 - Creating the Contributor’s Covenant and the Hippocratic License28:43 - Intent is not magical31:02 - Ergonomics: the product of design and ethics34:00 - Know your historyCoraline Ehmke is an internationally acclaimed speaker, writer, activist, and software engineer with over 25 years of experience in the technology industry. She’s best known as the creator of Contributor Covenant, the first and most popular code of conduct for open source communities, she was recognized for her work in the Ruby community with a Ruby Hero Award in 2016, she created the Hippocratic License, an Ethical Source license prohibiting the use of open source in conjunction with human rights violations, and today, she is co-founder and executive director of the Organization for Ethical Source: a global, multidisciplinary community working to empower open source developers by creating tools to ensure that their work is used for social good and in service of human rights. Visit her website at https://where.coraline.codes/ and find the Hippocratic License at https://firstdonoharm.dev/
Thomas Countz is a Senior Software Crafter at 8th Light where he works with a variety of ambitious teams on a variety of ambitious projects. A true curious nerd at heart, Thomas digs into everything from robotics and cider making to bouldering and Shakespeare’s comedies. To hear even more about Thomas, you can follow him on Twitter at @thomascountz and visit his blog at https://thomascountz.com.
Jerome Goodrich is an adoring husband, new dog dad, and all-around curious explorer. Through his work as a Principal Software Crafter at 8th Light, Jerome leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website: https://jeromegoodrich.com
8th Light partners with businesses and community groups to craft software that unlocks human potential and makes the world a better place. We’re passionate about designing for people, inspiring through education, and empowering the future. With teams spread across the globe—including Chicago, London, Los Angeles, New York, Austin, and Madison—we’re always eager to hear about ambitious new projects. Learn more about our team and reach out at https://8thlight.com
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"You can build an initial model, but you have to keep updating it. You have to continually operate it, doing things incrementally rather than trying to solve the whole problem in one go. One of the benefits is that we have a good framework for building things incrementally." - Hana Lee
Machine learning is only as good as the humans who create the program. Even machines have biases. Hana Lee is a Principal Software Crafter at 8th Light. Before joining the team, she was immersed in academia and has a unique take on tech.
In our conversation today, Hana discusses her life in academia, the case for creating cross-functional teams, and how to frame data problems for machine learning success. Listen to learn about her process.
05:53 - Genomics to Software07:07 - 8th Light Apprenticeship Model08:01 - Reproducibility 09:40 - data analysis vs. data science vs. data engineering13:58 - Cross-Functional Teams 15:54 - Work Collaboratively from the Beginning 20:33 - Probing the Model23:56 - Machine Learning Features25:52 - Frame the Problem in a Realistic Way30:35 - Analysis Paralysis32:51 - Translating ML to Business Terms36:40 - Machine Learning Bias39:59 - Get in touch with Hana43:14 - Final Thoughts with Thomas and JeromeContext Links:
The Failure of Big Data
85% of Big Data Projects Fail
87% of Projects Never Make it into Production
Hana Lee completed a postdoctoral fellowship at the University of Chicago, where she studied the genomics of host-pathogen interactions. She holds a Ph.D. in molecular biology at UC Berkeley, an AB from Harvard University in biochemical sciences, and an AWS certification as a Solutions Architect Associate.Now at 8th Light, Hana is a Principal Software Crafter where she’s currently leading data engineering work with a global reinsurance client to take prototype machine learning models that predict insurance risk and turn them into production-ready, scalable services. Her system is responsible for the automated data ingestion and feature engineering pipeline, delivering real-time predictions, continually validating the model’s performance, and generating reports with interactive visualizations so that non-technical stakeholders can make informed decisions about the model’s performance. Twitter: @lee_hn LinkedIn: hanalee07
Thomas Countz is a Senior Software Crafter at 8th Light where he works with a variety of ambitious teams on a variety of ambitious projects. A true curious nerd at heart, Thomas digs into everything from robotics and cider making to bouldering and Shakespeare’s comedies. To hear even more about Thomas, you can follow him on Twitter at @thomascountz and visit his blog at https://thomascountz.com.
Jerome Goodrich is an adoring husband, new dog dad, and all-around curious explorer. Through his work as a Principal Software Crafter at 8th Light, Jerome leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and...
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"I feel like the whole process has to feel like play as I'm working on it or else I get bored. I have to be learning something new. One of the reasons my solo projects end up being so all over the place is because I want to have a little play and chaos in my growth as a developer and to keep me energized in general." - Kofi Gumbs
For a lot of programmers, their day job pays their bills while their side projects fuel their passion. UI programmer Kofi Gumbs sees his side projects as an opportunity to grow.
In our latest episode of Collaborative Craft, we talked to Kofi about making design playful. He shared insights on why programmers need to develop the confidence not to reinvent the wheel, the role of ambitious design, and how to approach the process of design in a way that is motivating to you.
Listen for Kofi’s ideas and see if you can infuse your work with a sense of curiosity and wonder.
05:37 - What gave you the right?07:03 - Codec Beam and Multi 11:30 - Typebeat12:39 - Play, fun, and curiosity14:49 - Trying to Solve Ambitious Projects 18:01 - Leveraging GitHub21:59 - The Coolest Thing about Software24:04 - Spend Most of Your Time on the Interesting Part28:26 - Test Coverage29:55 - Hold it in your Head32:58 - Idealized Workflow at the Day Job36:36 - The Unsexy Stuff40:29 - Final Thoughts with Thomas & JeromeKofi Gumbs is a UI programmer currently based in Baltimore, MD, where he works remotely for Twitter. Most of his professional work centers on the Web platform, but Kofi's personal projects span a much wider spectrum -- from assembly compilers to realtime graphics and audio. He recently spent a batch at the Recurse Center iterating on those personal projects, as well as discovering his love of NYC dollar-slice pizza. When he's not programming, you can find him listening to music or trying to make his own
Thomas Countz is a Senior Software Crafter at 8th Light where he works with a variety of ambitious teams on a variety of ambitious projects. A true curious nerd at heart, Thomas digs into everything from robotics and cider making to bouldering and Shakespeare’s comedies. To hear even more about Thomas, you can follow him on Twitter at @thomascountz and visit his blog at https://thomascountz.com.
Jerome Goodrich is an adoring husband, new dog dad, and all-around curious explorer. Through his work as a Principal Software Crafter at 8th Light, Jerome leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website: https://jeromegoodrich.com
8th Light partners with businesses and community groups to craft software that unlocks human potential and makes the world a better place. We’re passionate about designing for people, inspiring through education, and empowering the future. With teams spread across the globe—including Chicago, London, Los Angeles, New York, Austin, and Madison—we’re always eager to hear about ambitious new projects. Learn more about our team and reach out at
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“Designing for safety is about designing against interpersonal harm. I use the stories of real life people who have gone through experiences with technology-facilitated violence and abuse. Telling these stories is a really powerful way to get people to understand what's happening.” - Eva PenzeyMoog
When we think of technology breaches, the image that comes to mind is of a nefarious hacker. For people that are the survivors of domestic violence and abuse, more often than not, people in their own lives are the perpetrators of these everyday issues of security.
Eva PenzeyMoog is the founder of The Inclusive Safety Project and the author of Design For Safety. Eva is on a mission to raise awareness about the interpersonal harm that can come from technology products and tell the stories of survivors.
This week on Collaborative Craft, she discusses ways that designers and technologists can better create products with safety in mind.
(00:00) - Content Warning(00:30) - Guest Eva PenzeyMoog (04:15) - Designing against interpersonal harm(04:52) - Safe design in Tech(06:25) - A threat model ignored(07:34) - More likely someone you know(09:15) - Trailblazing in tech: Dr. Leonie Tanczer and Molly Dragiewicz(11:29) - Vulnerability and the courage to speak out(15:08) - If you can speak out, then you have to (17:40) - To communicate powerfully, tell a story(20:16) - An example of the process of inclusive safety(24:58) - Apple AirTags(29:03) - The time it takes to design for safety(32:00) - The History of Seatbelts(34:04) - Ethics: Safety, Inclusion, and Compassion(36:33) - Design for Safety (39:15) - Final Thoughts with EvaEva PenzeyMoog is a principal designer at 8th Light and the author of Design for Safety. Before joining the tech field she worked in the non-profit space and volunteered as a domestic violence educator and rape crisis counselor. At 8th Light she specializes in user experience design as well as education and consulting in the realm of digital safety design. Her work brings together her expertise in domestic violence and technology, helping technologists understand how their creations facilitate interpersonal harm and how to prevent it through intentionally prioritizing the most vulnerable users. To learn more about Eva, you can visit her website at https://evapenzeymoog.com/
Thomas Countz is a Senior Software Crafter at 8th Light where he works with a variety of ambitious teams on a variety of ambitious projects. A true curious nerd at heart, Thomas digs into everything from robotics and cider making to bouldering and Shakespeare’s comedies. To hear even more about Thomas, you can follow him on Twitter at @thomascountz and visit his blog at
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“The term designer can be applied to so many different people in so many different experiences. Designers see firsthand how important it is to be influential and inspiring teachers, not just makers.”
– Jon Wettersten
Thomas and Jerome are but two humble software engineers with some big questions: what is design? What makes a designer? Jon Wettersten is the Head of Design at 8th Light and has an equally big answer: anyone can be a designer.
For the inaugural episode of Collaborative Craft, Thomas, Jerome, and Jon discuss design, creativity, and the marriage of the two when teams are up against deadlines. Listen in to learn why the design process is similar to learning to play the violin.
04:08 – Welcome Jon06:04 – The Design of Everyday Things07:10 – What is Human Centered Design?09:59 – Designing for clients12:14 – Design is like playing the violin16:20 – Who is a designer?21:06 – Empowering people to be designers24:01 – Creativity and Deadlines26:39 – First-hand Experience 32:07 - Everyone is a Designer32:43 - Thomas’ Experience of Human Centered Design34:31 - Jerome’s Experience of Human Centered DesignJon Wettersten is 8th Light’s Head of Design, where he leads 8th Light’s design capabilities and strengthens our multi-disciplinary, integrated approach to crafting human-centered software. Jon joined 8th Light after 13 years at IDEO, an award-winning global design firm, where he most recently served as an Executive Design Director. He has over 25 years of experience guiding companies through the design-to-delivery process, and is particularly passionate about crafting ambitious products that make a difference in people’s lives. Jon is a champion of the broader liberal arts, actively pursuing new disciplines while failing to perfect existing ones. He enjoys camping, hiking, cycling, tennis, playing musical instruments, attempting art, practicing mindfulness, and accumulating books faster than he can read them… some day. You can also follow Jon on Twitter @jwettersten.
Thomas Countz is a Senior Software Crafter at 8th Light where he works with a variety of ambitious teams on a variety of ambitious projects. A true curious nerd at heart, Thomas digs into everything from robotics and cider making to bouldering and Shakespeare’s comedies. To hear even more about Thomas, you can follow him on Twitter at @thomascountz and visit his blog at https://thomascountz.com.
Jerome Goodrich is an adoring husband, new dog dad, and all-around curious explorer. Through his work as a Principal Software Crafter at 8th Light, Jerome leads amazing software teams to design and develop thoughtful solutions to complex problems. He loves pairing strenuous hikes with deep conversations and is always trying to see things clearly and with an open heart. Jerome lives much of his life off of the internet, but he occasionally writes on his website: https://jeromegoodrich.com
8th Light partners with businesses and community groups to craft software that unlocks human potential and makes the world a better place. We’re passionate about designing for people, inspiring through education, and empowering the future. With teams spread across the globe—including Chicago, London, Los Angeles, New York, Austin, and Madison—we’re always eager to hear about ambitious new projects. Learn more about our team and reach out at
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Hey Everyone! Welcome to Collaborative Craft, the latest podcast from the team at 8th Light with hosts Jerome Goodrich and Thomas Countz.
This is a love letter to curiosity. Curiosity for the stories of our fellow developers, designers, and leaders of the tech industry. Jerome and Thomas are software consultants at 8th Light, where they partner with clients to deliver custom solutions to ambitious problems.
Being software consultants means having the immense privilege of experiencing how different organizations—big, small, young, and old—navigate their technological challenges and transformations. Throughout this series, Jerome and Thomas will follow their curiosity and dive into these experiences to find out how companies really get things done.
Because it’s one thing to read about how to double the size of your engineering team, migrate all on-prem systems to the cloud, or re-write your monolith as a cluster of microservices, and quite another thing to lead and navigate the work required to make it happen. Even though every team is different, there’s a lot to learn from the people who were there to see it all through.
The first episode will be launching soon, with new episodes released every other week. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts, so you don't miss an episode.
