Episodit
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In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcomed Katie Koestner, an influential activist and the executive director of the Take Back the Night Foundation, who shared powerful insights on teaching daughters about consent, autonomy, and resilience. Here are some key takeaways from their enlightening conversation.
Understanding Consent and AutonomyKatie Koestner underscores the critical importance of educating daughters about consent and bodily autonomy. Consent is not a one-time agreement that cannot be retracted; it can be revoked at any moment. Katie emphasizes teaching daughters the difference between regret and rape, highlighting that a lack of initial resistance does not imply consent. This understanding is vital for fostering an environment where daughters feel empowered to assert their rights and boundaries.
Healing from Trauma: A Collective JourneyHealing from trauma is an arduous yet rewarding journey that necessitates patience and collective support. Katie reflects on her own experiences, noting that regaining power and control over one's life is a long-term commitment. It's essential for parents, especially fathers, to support their daughters through this process without taking away their agency. Fathers should help their daughters navigate decisions collaboratively, emphasizing that the journey and growth are more important than immediate outcomes.
Mentorship and Community InvolvementCommunity involvement and mentorship programs like Take Back the Night are instrumental in fostering resilience and support networks for young women. Katie encourages fathers to guide their daughters in engaging with empowering communities that can offer strength and solidarity. Participating in such programs helps build a sense of belonging and mutual support, which are critical for personal empowerment.
Fostering Equal and Respectful RelationshipsTo raise daughters who thrive in healthy, respectful relationships, fathers need to challenge archaic notions of women needing to be "taken care of." Katie advocates for teaching daughters the value of equality and collaboration within relationships. It's crucial for fathers to set an example by treating women with respect and equality in their own lives, reflecting these values in everyday interactions. Encourage daughters to seek partners who value collaboration, mutual respect, and independence rather than falling into roles dictated by outdated stereotypes.
Practical Tools for EmpowermentKatie offers practical advice for fathers wanting to empower their daughters. She suggests affirming their worth based on their talents, energy, and intellect, rather than appearance. Role-playing challenging scenarios can also help daughters prepare for difficult situations and build the confidence to handle them independently. Katie's conversation with Dr. Lewis reiterates the significance of dads actively contributing to their daughter's self-respect and ability to navigate the world confidently.
Take Back the Night and AdvocacyKatie remains a staunch advocate against sexual assault through her work with the Take Back the Night Foundation, which organizes events to raise awareness and support survivors. She encourages community involvement in various forms, such as bike races, walks, and vigils, to promote solidarity and resilience. Fathers can support this cause by participating with their daughters, fostering a shared commitment to ending sexual violence.
In conclusion, the episode with Katie Koestner on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast provides valuable insights into raising empowered, resilient daughters. Through understanding consent, supporting the healing process, fostering respectful relationships, and active community involvement, fathers can profoundly impact their daughters' lives, guiding them toward independence and confidence.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And, you know, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and work with you as you're walking through this journey that you're on to be the best dad that you want to be, and working with your daughters to be those strong, independent women that you want them to be as well. That's why every week we have this opportunity to be able to sit down, talk, and to be able to learn and grow from each other, but also from the people that come on to our show. And it is really important that we're open to learning and growing and being able to truly hear what people have to say and to be able to take that in, internalize it, and turn it into something tangible that we can then use to be those dads that we want to be. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you on this journey. And today, we've got another great guest with us. Katie Kessler is with us today.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:22]:
And Katie is a activist on sexual assault. She has worked for many years in the Take Back the Night Foundation. She is the current director of the Take Back the Night Foundation. She has a a story that we all should be here to be able to see what we can do to be able to assist our own daughters in having healthy relationships, but also to be safe in their lives as they get older. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here and to be able to have her share her story and also to provide you with some some things to think about as we're moving forward in our own parenting journey. Katie, thanks so much for being here today.Katie Koestner [00:02:07]:
Absolutely. Chris, thank you for having me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to share your story because it's not an easy story. And definitely, it's not I'm sure it's not been an easy journey as you have become the advocate that you've become in sexual assault. And I I know that not everyone has heard your name before and not everyone knows that story, but only you can tell that story in your way. Can you tell tell me a little bit more? Can you share your story with us and what led you to being the activist that you are today on sexual assault?Katie Koestner [00:02:43]:
Absolutely. I am delighted to do so. So I think for all the dads out there, importantly, I am the daughter of an FBI agent and a homemaking mom. I grew up outside of Atlanta, Georgia, and then my dad was transferred to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania when I was in middle school, and I had a younger sister. I was pretty darn ambitious in every way, and, loved, I would say, everything from softball and swimming and field hockey to clarinet and trying to miss none on the SAT. I won a scholarship and lived in Japan when I was 16 on to 17 in high school. I was adventurous in every sort of the word. I decided to go up to college and went to the College William and Mary in Virginia as I double majored in Japanese and chemistry.Katie Koestner [00:03:34]:
And the orientation was a whirlwind whirlwind experience, and I met a very handsome he could speak 3 languages, wanted to be a brain surgeon, played a great game of soccer, incredible, potential prince charming and well beyond what I had encountered in my life so far and quickly, you know, went out and hung out with him. And he asked me out to dinner probably the 3rd weekend and to the fanciest, most expensive French restaurant in town. And any of you who don't know my story, I'm not gonna share all of it here because it's on TED Talks, and I've only lectured at 5,000 schools, and I'm sure there's clips here and there. I've been on open Good Morning, American, CNN, NBC News, lectured in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people on the mall in DC, at the United Nations, at the Pentagon, just a few places along the way. But the end of the story is I simply trusted this guy. He paid for a very expensive dinner, and I thought he would respect my being a virgin and waiting till I was married. I wasn't drunk at dinner nor that night. And I simply told this guy no.Katie Koestner [00:04:39]:
And for historic purposes, I'm sure I am older than many of the dads, who are listening. I might be younger than a few, but I was 18, and this was 1990. And I am the first woman in history to speak out nationally and publicly as the victim of date rape and appeared on the cover of Time Magazine at age 18. So I I stopped there just for a second because I think any dad listening is wondering now, when I already alluded to the fact my dad was an FBI agent, whether this, perpetrator was going to live to see another day when I knew exactly where he lived and could talk tell my dad. But, unfortunately, back then, my dad said I shouldn't have had the boy to my room and it wouldn't have happened. And while I think he probably had mixed emotions, and I don't wanna oversimplify, I do want to say that he was very traditional and very protective and very conservative, which means in high school, if a boy came to get me, he would probably fingerprint the guy's the front doorknob. He would wear his arsenal strapped on the outside as he answered the door. He would usher the potential boyfriend to the family room with the dead animals hanging on the wall and then motion to the back of the house where the targets for bows and arrows were set up.Katie Koestner [00:05:59]:
He was easily intimidating to most guys. So before I go on, I I would say that my dad's never heard me speak in all my life, which is hard, and it's one of my motivations for coming on your show, Chris, because I have two main themes that I would get across, and then we can delve into the details. But I'm gonna start with the end first because this is way too important to me. My father told me what to do in regard to boys. He was very protective, and I never I never had a bad boyfriend in high school. Maybe that's because my dad was looming in the backdrop at all times, But I will also say to all the dads, protecting your daughter does not serve her. She's gonna have to do it herself at some point. And if not in high school, then when? So if she can learn how to fend for herself and navigate situations on her own, you are gonna have a much stronger, resilient, confident daughter who will be able to suss out when things are not safe by herself and calling you for help is not what you want to have happen.Katie Koestner [00:07:11]:
You want her to navigate the hard situation, to come home that night or next morning at breakfast, and to say, dad, I did it all by myself. Sensed this one comment he made. I was around his friends who were making fun of women, and I knew better that this was not what I wanted, and I'm deserving of more. Do you want her to say that when what I wanted, and I'm deserving of more. You want her to say that when she's 14, when she's 16, and then you'll know when she goes off into the world, she's gonna do it better on her own because she had you to fall back on if she had to. But I would send her out on every date saying, you've got this. You deserve respect. It's not about your appearance.Katie Koestner [00:07:58]:
It's about your amazing talent, your energy, your grace, and your brilliance. If you compliment her just on her appearance, you're gonna teach a frail daughter. I don't care how pretty she is, but you've got to compliment her on something other than that. So I start with, dads, don't protect your daughters. Let them teach themselves how to protect themselves. And the second thing I would say is be mindful of how you talk about women at all times. Be mindful of what you watch, what screens you're on, how you do or don't comment on women in movies, women in television, women in the media, women in politics, women in your work workforce. What do you say about women that's the same or different from men? And the more you treat all genders the same in terms of your analysis and your accolades or your criticisms, the better off your daughter is gonna learn how to navigate the world through equity and respect.Katie Koestner [00:08:57]:
And then lastly, even if you're separated from the birth mother of your daughter, even if she is the worst person you've ever met, God forbid, always hold your hate inside and treat everyone even when they're wrongfully treating you, even if they're a train wreck of a human, it's really important that you teach your daughter that denigration is always wrong even when somebody else is wrong. So sorry that was a mouthful, Chris, but, like, I wanted to get those things out on the table and get dads really thinking about them because those two important things are probably the most helpful I can be. And I I would also footnote that I do have children now of my own. I have 16 year old twins. They're not girls. They're boys. And so I I'm on the flip side of your your equation. I'm a mom of boys, not a dad of a daughter, but I think we could talk about that later on is, like, how do you parent all your kids and how when your daughters are out on dates, if they if they actually like boys, who knows? What does that look like? Because I'm raising my sons.Katie Koestner [00:10:02]:
I think they're both into girls, maybe not quite so much yet, but I I think that's the track they're on. I'm not too judgy. People are people, but I definitely want them to be somebody's best date and best memory even if they're not in men. I want them to be good, humble, respectful young men, and that's what you should be asking your daughters to look for if they're into men into boys. So and don't look me up if your daughter wants a date. Like, my boys are not once, like, ready for, like, full time studying and the other one's too much on his games to be even intriguing to a girl yet. So don't look me up for dates for your daughter.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]:
I love what you shared right there. And I think and I have to say, I'm sorry that you had that experience with your own father and but I appreciate what you had to say and the advice that you gave to fathers because I think it is so important for us as men and as fathers to be able to support our daughters in many different ways. And you talked about the fact that for you, one of the the first things that you mentioned was to treat your daughter to fend for herself, to be able to navigate situations by herself. I want you to think back to your own father and what could he have done for you that would have allowed you or made you feel that he was giving you the ability to fend for yourself? And what can other dads do tangibly to be able to start on that path with their own daughters?Katie Koestner [00:11:29]:
Yeah. Fantastic question, Chris. And this is called, I would say, one of those conversations of courage. And not every human is wired to have this kind of conversation. And, I mean, I'm gonna be honest. A lot of people aren't comfortable with their own sexualities, their own relationships, and and men and women both. And I'll footnote it with this. If you're a dad and wants to have what I'm about to describe with your daughter, And you're like, oh, crap.Katie Koestner [00:11:55]:
I totally can't do that. I don't have that vocabulary. I couldn't come up with that sentence structure. This makes me feel awkward. I I could look I'd be, like, so nervous. Like, that's totally okay. Not everybody has to be you know, not everyone's a brain surgeon. Not everyone's a psychologist.Katie Koestner [00:12:10]:
Not everyone's into like, you everybody has different skill sets. What I want to have happen right now is for the dads listening to hear me model it and then say, if I don't think I can say this, I should at least tell my daughter. There's a few things I'm really awkward at saying that I want you to hear and then listen to this podcast. Push play, like, right here. Like, oh, I've listened to this woman, Katie, once, and she was trying to say it. I I can't do it the same way, but pretend it's my voice and I'm your dad. And, like, seriously, I don't I don't care. You it takes a team of, like, 8 or 9 people to raise a a great kid, and you have to have a lot of role models and a lot and all that matters to me at the end of the day is is intent and try.Katie Koestner [00:12:54]:
I intend to do this. I tried to do this. I might not be great at it. People will see your intent and that you tried. So here's kind of what I would say. You said, how could my dad have done it? And it's very simple. You'd you say, like, she's really interested in a guy or somebody, a date, a prospect. She's going out to a party.Katie Koestner [00:13:11]:
She's going to her first homecoming. She's going to the think of any number of potential social situations. The best thing you can say is, darling, sweetie, whatever you say. Jenny, Susie, you know, Aloysius, whatever her name is. You say, I know tonight's really important. I don't know how many of these kind of social things you've done, but what's really important to me is that you know you are that good. You know you deserve respect. You know what your morals, your values are.Katie Koestner [00:13:40]:
You know what you want to to have happen tonight. Keep that in mind throughout the whole time. You wanna walk away from tonight feeling positive, respected. You wanna come home and feel like tomorrow's gonna be a great day. And if someone treats you at all with disrespect, you know that you don't have to take it. You don't have to stay in that environment. There's never an okay reason where someone should say anything that's degrading. No one should touch you in a way that makes you uncomfortable, and you can navigate a way out.Katie Koestner [00:14:12]:
If you want to, we can role play some of the ways you could do that tonight. If you think you're all set, I'm here a phone call away, a text away if you need me. That's all. You just just remind her she's worth it. Put her eye on the prize, which is, like, at the end of the night, she wants to come home safe, respected, and tomorrow is gonna be a great day. And that's it. You don't have to go into the nitty gritty. You don't have to say, like, what if he tries to like, girls might feel awkward about that.Katie Koestner [00:14:40]:
That could be a different class. Like, if somebody tried to touch you, how are you gonna if she wants to go there. But if you're just on square one, that's all you have to say. It's like, you've got this. Not like go, oh, you look so pretty, sweetie. You don't need don't say her dress is great, her skirt's cute, her hair looks great. That's fine, But, really, more important than how she looks is being being confident in how she should be treated all all night or all day. Like, whatever the event is, focus more on how she should feel and end up being respected.Katie Koestner [00:15:12]:
Not like I mean, do logistics. How's she gonna get home? Who's driving? What happens? You could do some logistics. But if you just constantly say you deserve respect, you're amazing, you're talented, how do you want this night to end? Just focus on the the finish line all the time. I mean, what do athletes do? What it what's anyone who wants to a date is nothing more than an event where you wanna succeed. And succeed is, like, be safe and not be assaulted and have fun.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]:
Now one of the things you talked about in your story, you talked at the beginning that you met the gentleman at college, kind of the prince charming effect in many different ways. And then you talked about the importance of really as you're parenting and as you're working, not in in our situation here, in my situation, working with my daughters to identify and try to figure out what to look for in a relationship, whether it be with a man, with a woman, whatever it might be. I guess as you think back to your experiences and the experiences of others that you've spoken to on your podcast, Dear Katie, survivor stories or in your experience in speaking in so many different places. What advice would you give to fathers that are listening that could help them with their daughters to be able to navigate those relationships and help them to provide them with the tools that they should be looking for in those healthy relationships.Katie Koestner [00:16:41]:
A healthy relationship, you're gonna hear a lot of working together, collaboration. It's not me, me, me, me. The partner or guy who's all about himself and constantly boasting or bragging, he's actually frail. Like, frail in his ego in that he might need to also eventually use his partner as part of his power play. And anyone who simply talks about themselves, their achievements, it's fine to be a high achiever. That's great. It's fine to be talented and smart, but it's really important to find a partner who's also equally interested in having a partner who is also talented, also brilliant, also smart, and wants to, like, do things collaboratively, not for. You know, old school men are like, I'll do this for you.Katie Koestner [00:17:30]:
I'll take care of you. That language is dead. Nobody should be taken care of anymore. We're not in the dark ages. So I think the woman today needs to dad to say, you've got this on your own, and the best thing you can hope for is a collaborator, not a take care of her because no one's gonna be able to take care of anyone else unless you're being purchased, essentially. Being taken care of means you have less power, less equality, less confidence. No one needs to be taken care of. I think that this is not to say, and I wanna nuance this, you can have 2 totally different lanes.Katie Koestner [00:18:08]:
And I'll even go so far as to say it's fine if one is a full time stay at home parent, and all they want to be is a, maybe, full time mom. I wanna have 5 kids. I wanna bake cookies. I wanna clean the house. I wanna be the PTA. I wanna do all I wanna volunteer. That's all fine as long as it's a pure choice. So, I mean, the gender roles, who cares? But the idea is, is there respect and valuation that's equitable between the partners? And that's a lot that's thinking way ahead.Katie Koestner [00:18:40]:
But at the root of a relationship, when you start out, you can get your daughter thinking about how how does this partner value what I do? How does he or they see what I do? And if she's being taught and trained that she needs someone to be taking care of her, that's gonna only cripple her long term safety and success.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]:
I appreciate that as well because I think you're right. I mean, I know in my own situation with my own daughters, I don't want them to feel crippled by to their success as you just mentioned. I want them to be able to have those healthy relationships. AndKatie Koestner [00:19:15]:
Yeah. I think what I'd like to say, Chris, is it's gloriously amazing to be the power couple. Seriously, who wouldn't want that? You see you see a few that are still, like, kept wise and, you know, people kind of pity them now. Nobody's like, oh, what a glorious, fabulous relationship you have because all you do is dress up like a Barbie doll, hence the movie. But I think it's an age of glorious and we went through some individual like, you might go back. We're so old, Chris. Like, the eighties, you know, we had all the, like, me, me, me's. Then we had you know, the decades are interesting when we look back at them, but I think we're we're hopefully going into an age of this amazing it's the combination of individuality that blends together into cooperation to build something even more beautiful.Katie Koestner [00:20:08]:
And I do think, you know, partnerships and relationships can be that good. It's really there's no such thing as a renaissance person anymore. Like, it's impossible. We have micro slices of everything in the world. So the best thing we can hope for is 2 really dedicated, kind, amazing, committed people who say, like, things are gonna get hard. That's I actually, that brings me to a really good point. Fights are good. Disagreements because you know why? The moment she comes your daughter comes home and is like, oh my god.Katie Koestner [00:20:39]:
He made me so mad. You that's good. That's like, okay. Well, how did how did you resolve it? Because if you can't work together and not that's the tell. That's like the next level tell. If you have to think about the first date tells, like, where he makes some random joke or he can't pay look you in the eye if he's checking his phone every second. If he's asking you who your follow these are warning signs. Is he gonna say, why are you following him? What do you see? Like, jealousy is a really bad one.Katie Koestner [00:21:08]:
Telling, like, why you why you not not allowing your daughter to have other male friends. That's a big red flag. Like, if a guy goes out with you and I mean, hello. It's it's 2024. Like, if you can't have male friends I remember I was in the chess club in 6th grade, and I was, like, the only girl. So I only hung out with boys, and I was not dating the entire chess club. Let me just tell you. No.Katie Koestner [00:21:34]:
It was not like that. I was just like, these are the cool, smart guys. Like, I know. And luckily, back then, I had male friends, but I think you've gotta have a male partner who's good. You can talk to a guy and not be jealous. Like, even if he's cuter than you. Even if he's better at soccer than you. Like, who cares? Like, a secure guy is what you want.Katie Koestner [00:21:56]:
He's not constantly jealous because he's ultimately gonna be manipulative and and doing power plays. That I would say that's another one. I'm thinking small things. I don't care about, like, send you flowers and open the door. Who cares? Sometimes people get hung up on, like, oh my god. I can't see the guy who holds the door. I'm like, give it up. Like, he's just trying to be nice.Katie Koestner [00:22:16]:
Hold the door for him. If he sends you flowers, send him flowers. I think you break all the rules. And if he spies into silly stuff like guys can't get flowers, what's wrong with you? Again, it's 2024. I mean, maybe you don't wanna paint your nails blue as a guy, but that's fine. But if they buy into too many rigid stereotypes, there's going to be a problem down the road. And I think building in that, like, wow, creativity is helpful because later in life, the more open minded and creative someone is by the time they get to our age, Chris, you bet they're gonna get really dry and boring if they don't have a creative open mind. You wanna see all of those awesome traits.Katie Koestner [00:22:56]:
I guess I last thing is do pay attention. I hate to say this, but many rapists, we didn't talk about this, many rapists themselves were also victimized. So do pay attention. No. It's a little bit let's say a few stats. Like, 1 in 4 women or girls is raped sexually assaulted in her lifetime. About 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 men the same. Now the difference is the 1 in 6 to 8 men often go on to become perpetrators.Katie Koestner [00:23:22]:
And the 1 in 4 women, a lot of them go on to be victimized again because once you've had it happen once, there's such a huge blow to your confidence and ego as a woman. Many women turn that against themselves, their shame and blame, and many men turn it outward as anger. So a young man's own experience with relationships and and or abuse is really important to find. I mean, you don't wanna, like, quiz him on the first date and give him an interview, but you do wanna find out and see how do they if they have a mother, how do they treat their mother? If they have a father, how do they treat their father? How do they do they fight constantly? Is there a lot of tension? I hate to say it. It's not what they what do your parents look like? Because then I'll know how you look when you look old. Okay. That's fine. If the girl's like, I wanna see your dad.Katie Koestner [00:24:10]:
Is he bald to know if he'll be bald? No offense taken. But, like, I think that's so not important. I mean, it is more important to see how they interact, though, with their siblings and with their parents. That part's really important.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:26]:
You know, those numbers are really staggering. And, you know, when I think of 1 in 4 girls experiencing this type of trauma, I guess one question that I would ask of you is thinking about that stat, how can fathers support their daughters if they come to them and say, I've experienced this trauma?Katie Koestner [00:24:46]:
Okay. Two best sentences ever. Ready? 1 is well, 3. 1st is, I'm so glad you trusted me enough to tell me. 2nd is, I'm so sorry this happened to you. And thirdly is, what can I do to help you right now? That's it. And then everything else you're gonna have to figure out as you go because everyone's gonna be different. The situation might be urgent.Katie Koestner [00:25:08]:
It might be immediate danger. It might be and I'll just nutshell it this way. There's 3 things to think about all the time. First one and I'll do them in order of expiration date. If it's recent, medical attention is paramount. Medical attention also means collecting evidence. You have 3 to 5 days after a sexual assault or rape to get evidence collected. It's free.Katie Koestner [00:25:29]:
It's done at usually a hospital rape crisis center. It can be held evidence can be held for up to 2 years. There's no pressing immediacy to to go forward with the district attorney. But if you don't get the evidence, it can't be used later. And that's important because what many of the dads thinking about right now, it may not make sense. 84% of sexual assaults involve someone the victim knows. Trust, likes, not a stranger off the street. So if you get your thinking evidence collected, well, we already know who it is.Katie Koestner [00:25:57]:
Even microscopic patterns of bruising and tearing on the victim can prove what her body position was in, whether she was asleep, passed out, if she was up against a wall. Like, all of it now is so great and scientifically proven that can help sway a jury if there was ever a trial about the likelihood of consent. So medical, medical, medical. And then, of course, pregnancy, STIs, all potential and have them looked at immediately. And, obviously, we've got a shape shifting goings on about what to do about unwanted pregnancies, including through rape across the country. So you'll have to think about what state you're in and what your okay. So that's first. And second after medical is reporting options.Katie Koestner [00:26:39]:
If it's within 8 years, most states will take a rape case for criminal prosecution. If a girl is a minor when this happens, it might even be longer. But mindfully, let's nuance this a little bit. Let's say she's 14 and her boyfriend's 17. That could be statutory rape in most states, even if it's her boyfriend. So if your daughter is 14 having sex with her 17 or 18 year old boyfriend, that technically could be rape in most every state in the country. I'm not sure you wanna prosecute her boyfriend if she really likes him, if you find out they had sex, but I'm just letting you know. If indeed it was an adult, let's say it was her 30 year old soccer coach, that's definitely gonna be sexual abuse of a minor, and the statute of limitations on that can be much longer.Katie Koestner [00:27:25]:
It can be entirely a whole lifetime. So the age does matter and the state does matter for how long you have to criminally prosecute. Luckily, luckily, Take Back the Night, the foundation has started. The, the Take Back the Night predates me by a lot. It's over 50 years old as a movement around the world to end sexual violence and support survivors. But over 20 years ago, I corralled all the event holders and created the foundation. But we, about 4 years ago, also put together something called the sexual assaults victims legal support hotline. So that is so important.Katie Koestner [00:28:02]:
It's 1567 shatter for any dad listening. That's free. It's confidential, and it puts you through to an attorney who's steeped in this kind of information who can go over your rights and options. I just put that out there in case someone's all of a sudden interested. But that that's criminal. Then you also we have 2 more systems of reporting of justice. So I think of them as the 3 c's. We have the criminal system, then secondly, we have the civil system.Katie Koestner [00:28:30]:
Civil is where let's say your daughter was assaulted by the soccer coach at school. She could potentially sue the school. You you know, you all could because of sexual assault of a minor and failure to protect her and all kinds of things. A civil suit, you usually just have 2 years. Again, there's some exceptions. The third one, though, is the campus reporting system. If it's a college, you have as long as the perpetrators affiliated with the college, you can report it and have some sort of adjudication. If it was your high school or elementary school or middle school, same deal.Katie Koestner [00:29:05]:
There's also a school campus system. So remember, criminal, civil, and campus are three areas where you can report. And that legal support hotline I just mentioned, 567 shatter, is a great option to learn about any and all. The third thing so we did first is medical attention. 2nd is reporting. The third thing to tell her is emotional or long term support and healing. There's no expiration date. Obviously, that can be done anytime.Katie Koestner [00:29:33]:
There's no one size fits all. It could be their rabbi. It could be their priest. It could be a professional rape crisis counselor. It could be online BetterHelp. It could be there's a million different ways to get emotional support, but it takes more than one person to heal. Meaning, the victim by themselves almost always benefits from having someone else to talk to. And sometimes the parent needs also support and counseling.Katie Koestner [00:29:57]:
You're a secondary trauma victim. You're trying to help your daughter, and it can feel exhausting. So don't hesitate to do good self care for you and your partner along the way or your other children. You know, it can be so devastating and frustrating, and the spin out can include everything from drug addiction, alcohol addiction, suicide, eating disorders, like metal, all kinds of depression, it can be really rough. Bodily trauma of a sexual nature is just really hard to process.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:28]:
One of the things that I guess from what you 2 were talking about is that education is important. And especially health and wellness education when it comes to our children's bodies and helping them to understand that. What would you say are some practical steps that fathers can take to educate their daughters about consent and what they should know for themselves as they go out into the world?Katie Koestner [00:30:53]:
Well, some schools do a really good job of consent education. Many do not. But essentially, that was the whole if anyone researches back into my case, when I was raped at William and Mary, the entire country and William and Mary's policy had sexual assault and rape as only happening to women by definition because only women were property and rape was a crime of property. That's the history of it. You know, when you hear the phrase damaged goods, damaged goods basically meant a woman was no longer a virgin. She'd be more expensive to marry off, and that's where that phrase came from. And I was the one who came along at 30 3 years ago, Chris, and said, I'm not damaged goods. And if a man doesn't wanna marry me, I don't wanna marry him.Katie Koestner [00:31:37]:
And why is rape the only crime where force is required? If I reached out and said, give me your money and you had your wallet in your hand and I just took it, I wouldn't have to you wouldn't have to say, well, she punched me to take it. If I took your wallet, I stole from you. Like, whether or not you, like, had a very nice gold watch on, you could be, you know, wearing expensive clothes. No one could say, oh, you must give away lots of money and be rich. Why would you miss your wallet? You were asking for it. But I go back to consent because I helped rewrite the law to say it should be simply the lack of consent, not the action of resistance. And dads, dads, dads, that's critical. Your daughter doesn't have to fight off her attacker, and she doesn't even have to say no even though that would be great, I'm sure, in your minds.Katie Koestner [00:32:26]:
But if she freezes up and doesn't feel like she can do anything and just lays there, that's still not consent. So it's really important for you to validate. Like, don't rank how she responded. Like, if only you had been, like, superwoman and had out your gold braces and your golden whip and, like, your steel belt, you know, and gotten the guy. Like, who cares? It's over. It was still wrong. It's not, like, more wrong or less wrong. It's just wrong wrong.Katie Koestner [00:32:53]:
So all rape is wrong wrong. There's not like, oh my gosh. I here's a fun story, Chris. In all the education I do, one time I was talking to some boys in high school, and one was like, but, you know, what if she leads me on? And I just get it's I'm I'm at the point in a return. And I said, oh my gosh. That's so that sounds so interesting. Like so let's just run this through. Like, imagine you're over at your girlfriend's house and you're making out on the sofa because her parents are gone out for the weekend or out of town, like, for dinner or something.Katie Koestner [00:33:22]:
They're out out, and you 2 were just going at it, and you're at this point, you know, return. And then all of a sudden, at the back door, you hear the jingling of the keys. The parents are unexpectedly home. I said, young man, I know exactly what you would do. You'd holler out, like, mister and missus Smith, you think you could just wait outside for a couple of minutes? I'm almost done with your daughter, and it's the point of no return for me, and I just can't stop right now. You know, like, the absurdity. Right? Like, any there's no such thing. We're not animals.Katie Koestner [00:33:50]:
We can totally stop. Even if it's uncomfortable, awkward, embarrassing, horrible, there's no such thing as we're not out of our mind and body having sex. So I think it's really important to tell your daughter, like, if all of a sudden it's hurting, if it doesn't feel good, whatever her I don't know what the values of your dads are, but whatever they are, she should know. There's no point at which it's too late to say no. I say when someone said to me, Chris, once, they said, when is rape regret? And I said regret is when you change your mind afterwards. Rape is when you change your mind in the middle and they don't stop. If you change your mind after after and say, I shouldn't have done that, that's regret. It's not rape.Katie Koestner [00:34:31]:
If you change your mind, 5 minutes in, if they keep going, it's still rape. So I think those are those are nuanced things for dads to hear, but I think if they can talk to their daughter, and that sounds like a way awkward conversation for most dads, but just put the podcast on again. This is sex ed consent ed 101.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:49]:
You know, the other thing you just talked about was the fact that healing takes time, and it takes effort. And it's it's, something that's going to be a multi year entire life situation. So talk to me about the process that you had to go through, but also that what you tell to other survivors in regards to what it looks like to regaining power, regaining your life, but also are there things that dads can do to be able to support their daughters on that journey?Katie Koestner [00:35:21]:
I'll start with the last part of your question first. Things dads should not do is take away agency. Meaning, here's the difference and nuance there. Taking away agency, it means not doing everything for them or telling them what to do. Taking weight, that's taking away agency. Giving agency means let's make a list together and let's do the research. If you're up for it, help me do the research. If not, I'm the dad.Katie Koestner [00:35:47]:
I I'll take this on. I'll make the whole list of options that I can find. Then I'll review them. Let's think about them together. The best thing a dad can do or anyone could do is start to collaborate and build more control and power and agency back into the victim. The more you here here's a good small point. If they really want to try if you wanna put the guy in jail, let let's say the traditional dad reaction, we need to put him in jail. You know what? The average rapist rapes 12 to 17 times before going to jail.Katie Koestner [00:36:19]:
The conviction rape on sexual violence is the lowest of any crime. This is the tough reality. It's fine. So jail time is not likely. However, the entire process of seeking power and control and some sort of I tried is that in and of itself has to be honored. And so often, I think I hate to ever stereotype men, but men sometimes get caught up on the outcome instead of the process. Men sometimes wanna come up with the answer instead of talk it through. You know, that's a total stereotype.Katie Koestner [00:36:52]:
Women are like, I just wanna talk to you about this. I don't need an answer, and I wanna get men better at like, I'm very outcome driven, Chris. Like, seriously, like, I'm just one on the SAT. I'm a math girl. I'm a science girl. I like the data. I like to crunch the numbers. I like to win.Katie Koestner [00:37:09]:
I like to be successful. I like to speak in front of a quarter of a 1000000 people. You know, I'm very, very driven. So but I also like the process because what I did helped. So I'll go back now to the other part of your question. So dads should sit with the process. Don't take away the agency. Don't provide the outcome.Katie Koestner [00:37:27]:
Don't get to the finish line. Let your daughter run the marathon herself. She's got to. However, what happened in my world was a little unique because there was no name for what happened to me. So I literally had to research everything old school before the Internet, go to the library, get some books, read law books at the law school at William and Mary. I did what I could because I was confident enough in every aspect of my life that I could do this. And I got there in high school and in middle school. Like, I had already felt like the one good thing I will say my parents did is they they're like, do everything.Katie Koestner [00:38:04]:
They always said you're never good enough, but they were they were also like, do everything. They never limited what I could do except for going to MIT. I wanted to go to MIT. Sorry. Well, they said we don't have enough money for MIT, and there's not enough girls there. That's what my mom said. Anyway, that aside, I think what helped me so much was I learned and I taught and I sat in it and I did everything. I changed laws.Katie Koestner [00:38:27]:
I tested on in Capitol Hill. If you read that Time Magazine, you'll see me testifying on Capitol Hill when I'm only 18 years old. I made a movie with HBO about my story. No one helped me. I just did it. I went to New York City to get that picture taken. I I I debated the vice president of my my college on Larry King Live when he was alive. I stunk at it.Katie Koestner [00:38:47]:
I was a terrible debater. I went and I did and I flew and I tried and I talked to other survivors. I became a rape crisis counselor. I answered that hotline from 11 to 7 AM while I was in college. I immersed myself in the pain of myself and others by full immersion, and I won't say I deleted everything else. I'm very lucky. I still was getting a's and still going to classes and still am doing everything else. But I think that by burying things, we hurt more.Katie Koestner [00:39:17]:
The wound does not heal with a patch. The wound heals when we put it in full sunlight and we we just go with it. And who cares? Like, that's a great scar. You got through it. You survived, and you went on. For a while, I wanna go back one thing. Your daughter might go through a phase. Why in the blank did this have to happen to me? Is there something wrong with me? And you've simply gotta tell her it happens to a lot of people.Katie Koestner [00:39:42]:
It's not you. You're unfortunately, my dear, you're not special. It happens to 25% of women. So it's just you were one of those, but let's makes it had to happen for you. Let's why? Let's do something with this. Let's make it into something more. Let's make it part of who you are in a positive way. And and and I would and here's a way that I think about that.Katie Koestner [00:40:02]:
If someone you care a lot about in your life dies, like your grandmother, your auntie, you don't say when are you gonna get over it. That pain, that horrible gap in your heart, no one says, when are you gonna stop missing your grandma? That's wrong. Big losses in life, you're like, how do you honor her? Big losses, we honor them if we're on the right path. We figure out what's glorious about that, about her, about that experience, and what goes forward. That's the way to to spin anything. And and and and even for the dads who fortunately, hopefully, don't have daughters in distress, start teaching her how to spin everything that's bad into positive as fast as possible. Get over it. It's not you.Katie Koestner [00:40:43]:
It's them. How do I navigate a different path? If I don't like what I'm on, how do I change the lanes? That is resiliency. I'll say, like now I'll also say this for any dad who's still listening to me. Your daughter's I have a 14 year old intern on my team. She is magnificent. She helps with my podcast, and I mentor, if you have a daughter who wants to kick butt in the world, join the Take Back the Night team. We have volunteers across even all the way to Kenya. We have Benter who does our like, it's so cool and amazing.Katie Koestner [00:41:15]:
We empower every single woman, and and we teach them business skills. And if your daughter can't like, how about flourishing with fabulous, like, international global women, young women? Like, we have amazing women. I would our 14 year old is the youngest volunteer, but my gosh, we have a team of, like, 50. They're so we put them on teams. Like, your daughter should be around, like, if she's on into sports. Like, what team is she on? Don't let her isolate. Don't let her find her heart just in one boy. Like, put her around amazing people who are gonna push her, help her thrive.Katie Koestner [00:41:57]:
That's gonna make her really amazing. So I'm just plugging, like, I don't care if it's Take Back the Night. I do care if it's something. Just find some way to put around, not just singing. I know. Not pooh poohing singing. I can't sing at all. I can't do singing.Katie Koestner [00:42:15]:
I can't do car wheels. But I I think, you know, it's putting around people who will push her in a positive way. Honor her spirit, push her enough to be ready to take criticism in a positive way. Like, all of the things you want. Right? Like, those are all great things. They're very idealistic. If you can't tell, I'm very positive that the glass is always almost full.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:42:40]:
Well, Katie, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey, but sharing all of this amazing insight today. If people wanna find out more about you, your story, your organization, where should they go to find out more?Katie Koestner [00:42:53]:
Love, love that. First of all, believe it or not, I still go around the country and speak. I just got back from speaking in Nantucket. How fun was that? I took a ferry to my speech. That's the first time I could say that. But I think I love speaking, but I also have a team of speakers. So if you want more education in your community, that is either Google Katie Koestner, my name, or you can go right to campus outreach services, and that's education and awareness. There's tons of ideas there.Katie Koestner [00:43:23]:
2nd idea, take back the night. We are always eager to have more volunteers, more financial support. Go read about the hotline and coolness. You could even plan a take back the night event in your own community. We have a whole team who will help you. It's just a one day event of awareness. You could do a bike race. You can do a walk.Katie Koestner [00:43:42]:
You can do a vigil. You can have it at your church. You can have it at your school. You can have it at your business, but an event is a way of honoring and bringing awareness. So I encourage everybody to do that as well. But thank you, Chris. This is fabulous. This is so much fun.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:43:58]:
Well, I truly appreciate you being here today. Thank you for all the work that you're doing to support so many across the globe, and I wish you all the best.Katie Koestner [00:44:06]:
Absolutely. Take care.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:08]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along. And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:44:57]:
We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:06]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:59]:
Be the best dad you can be. -
An Educational Journey Turned Parenting Mission
Jen Lumanlan’s shift from a sustainability consulting career to a focus on parenting wasn't incidental. After grappling with the challenges of raising her own daughter, she realized that academic research on child development could serve as a guiding light. This led her to pursue master’s degrees in psychology and education, and subsequently, to the creation of her podcast and book. Her primary goal? To leverage her learnings to support other parents facing similar challenges.
Challenging Conventional DisciplineUnderstanding the Power Dynamics at Play
At the heart of Jen's approach is the critique of conventional discipline methods such as timeouts and consequences. According to Jen, these methods often perpetuate harmful power dynamics. They emphasize a power-over relationship, where the authority figure (the parent) uses their power to correct or control the child. These traditional methods can breed resentment and a lack of genuine understanding.
Exploring Alternative StrategiesThe Shift From Control to Collaboration
So, what can parents do instead? Jen advocates for strategies that satisfy both the parent's and the child's needs, fostering a power-sharing relationship. For example, during conflict, she suggests addressing the situation outside of the moment of crisis. Proactive discussions about recurring issues like tooth brushing or bedtime can pave the way for more harmonious solutions. By understanding and meeting each other's needs, both parties can find agreeable strategies, reducing resistance and conflict.
Identifying and Meeting NeedsThe Two-Way Street of Parenting Needs
Parents often neglect their own needs in the face of their child’s demands, but Jen emphasizes that both parent and child have valid needs. Strategies should aim to fulfill both. She introduces the concept of "cherry needs" — the most critical needs that recur for both parents and children. For instance, a child’s need for autonomy can be met with choices that do not compromise the parent’s essential needs, such as brushing teeth in a different room.
Problem-Solving in Real-TimeNavigating Tantrums and Meltdowns
Tantrums and meltdowns are common challenges, and Jen offers peace and empathy as the best tools. Understanding the underlying needs that prompt such behaviors and addressing them proactively or with empathetic responses in the heat of the moment can defuse tension. Validating the child’s feelings and needs even during a meltdown can lead to quicker resolutions and more trust.
Shifting Dynamics with TeensIt’s Never Too Late to Transform Relationships
Parents of older children might assume it's too late for change, but Jen underscores that it's never too late. Even with tweens and teens, shifting from a power-over to a power-sharing dynamic can salvage and improve the relationship. She proposes using phrases like “I’m worried that…” to express needs and concerns, fostering mutual respect and understanding.
Healing From Our Own ChildhoodBreaking Cycles Through Self-Reflection
Many of our parenting triggers stem from our own childhood experiences. By unpacking and healing these old traumas, parents can become more conscious and connected. This self-awareness prevents past negative patterns from repeating, helping parents respond more thoughtfully rather than reacting on impulse.
Broader Societal ChangeRaising Children Who Challenge Injustice
Jen believes that by fostering power-sharing relationships at home, we can equip children to challenge systemic injustices. When children learn to view all individuals' needs as equally important, they carry this perspective into broader societal contexts, questioning and challenging systems of domination and inequality.
Jen Lumanlan’s insights offer valuable guidance in our quest to raise empathetic, empowered children. By shifting from control to collaboration and addressing the deeper needs within our family dynamics, we not only nurture healthier relationships but also contribute to a more just world. Tune into this enlightening episode of Dads with Daughters for more practical wisdom on transformative parenting.
Connect with Jen and deepen your understanding of parenting dynamics at Your Parenting Mojo.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr.Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. I love being on this journey with you where we have an opportunity to be able to learn together about what it takes to be that dad that we wanna be. And all of us wanna be that those engaged dads, those dads that are there for our kids. And it takes work. It takes time. It takes effort to be a quality parent, and it takes resources.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]:
And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can bring different resources to you, different different opportunities for you to learn and grow. The the biggest thing is that you're open to learning. And that's what I hope for me for you every week when we're talking. This week, we got another great guest with us. Jen Loominlan is with us today. And Jen hosts the Your Parenting Mojo podcast, which was named the best research parenting podcast by Lifehacker. It's been downloaded over 3,000,000 times.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]:
After attending Berkeley and Yale and following a traditional career path in sustainability consulting, Jen found that parenting was her toughest challenge yet. She went back to school for a master's degree in psychology focused on child development and another in education and trained as a coactive coach to share what she learned with other parents. She's an author of the book Parenting Beyond Power, How to Use Connection and Collaboration to Transform Your Family and the world. And today, we're gonna be talking with her about her own experiences and these experiences with the book and some of the things that you can take out of this book to help you to be that parent that you wanna be. Jen, thanks so much for being here today.Jen Lumanlan [00:02:16]:
Thanks for having me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:16]:
It is my pleasure. I mentioned the fact that you've got this book that you've put out into the world. As an author myself, I know how much time, effort, passion has to go into putting a book out into the world. And it is a lot of time and effort, and you have to have a passion for it to be able to get to that end point. So tell me the story. What what was it about? You know, I introduced you. You you had this career, but you said, you know what? I wanna go back and I want to do do more work on education, work with parents. But what made you decide that you wanted to put all this into a book that was gonna help others? What drew you to that final point?Jen Lumanlan
I think I started the podcast because, you know, I had no idea how to parent. And I didn't have the most amazing parenting role models myself either, and so I realized I could look to academic research to help me understand how to go about raising my daughter. And so I kind of figured, you know, I I should get some education on this so that I can put some kind of guardrails around it and know I'm not missing anything huge, and that's what led to the master's degrees. And and then I was kinda thinking, well, it's kinda silly to do all this learning for myself and not share it. So I created the podcast to share that with other people. And then I over the course of of sort of exploring a lot of topics on the podcast that we have over 200 episodes now that are all research based. And I think, you know, it became really clear that I was hearing similar challenges from parents over and over again. And and they're kind of variations on the phrase, how do I get my child to Right? How do I get my kid to put their shoes on in the morning, to eat their breakfast, to stay at the dinner table, to get in the bath, to stay in bed at the end of the night? You know? And that's just the toddler set.
Jen Lumanlan [00:03:59]:
The challenges expand from there. So, what I realized was the the tools that I had learned from others and kind of adapted with putting my own spin on them were really helping parents to kind of address those challenges, those daily challenges on a day to day basis. And at the same time, they also help us to address some of the big challenges that we face out in the world that are related to kind of being in power over relationships. And it turns out that our kids learn a lot about power from our relationships with them and when we're using our power to get them to because it seems like that's the only thing we can do. Right? We just wanna get through the day. It's not we want to use our our power over our kids. We're just trying to get through the day. And we use our power because it seems like that's the only option we have because that's what was modeled for us when we were kids.Jen Lumanlan [00:04:50]:
And if we can instead see how to be in a power sharing relationship with our kids, then our kids stop resisting us because you don't resist when your needs are met and when, you know, when you're not being sort of dominated by somebody else. And and also that will help us to address some of the social challenges we face that have their origins in these power based relationships.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:11]:
So let's talk a little bit about power because in your book, you do talk about the that that power dynamic, and you challenge conventional discipline methods like timeouts and consequences. And you suggest that they perpetuate harmful power dynamics like you just were mentioning. So what are some other alternative strategies that parents can use when they feel overwhelmed, or when they feel that their child's behavior is especially difficult?Jen Lumanlan [00:05:38]:
So the I mean, firstly, the challenge with those conventional discipline methods. I mean, if you ever put a child in time out, right, do they come out of time out kind of contrite and ready to apologize for the thing that they did wrong and they never do it again? Right? No. They usually kinda resent being in time out. They come out of it kinda pissed at you, and they do it again. Right? They do the same thing over again. Same with consequences. We can we can withdraw a privilege of some kind. We can punish a child in some way, and we can call it a, quote, unquote, logical consequence because it seems like the punishment is sort of related to the thing they did wrong.Jen Lumanlan [00:06:12]:
But, essentially, it is a punishment. It is us using our power to say your behavior is not acceptable to me. And until that changes, I'm going to withdraw this thing that you care about. Right? We are using our power to to make both of those things happen. And so what what I want to make sure that that your listeners understand is that I am not advocating that we parents suddenly say, okay. Whatever you want. Totally fine. Totally cool.Jen Lumanlan [00:06:32]:
Right? I'm just here to exist to enable you to live your best life. No. What I'm saying is that both parent and child have needs. And the way that we use the word need in our culture is a little bit odd. Right? Like, I might say, I can't play with you right now. I need to make dinner. And needing to make dinner is not actually a need. That's a strategy that I'm using to meet my need for food, for nourishment.Jen Lumanlan [00:07:01]:
Right? And there are a 100 other strategies we could use. I could toss a pizza in the oven. We could go out and get dinner. I could ask someone to bring us dinner. We could have cereal for dinner. So many different strategies we could use to meet that need. And so what I'm saying is that you, parents, are a whole person with needs, and you deserve to get those needs met. And your child is a whole person with needs, and your child deserves to get those needs met.Jen Lumanlan [00:07:26]:
And the vast majority of the time, preferably if we're not dealing with it in the moment. Right? We're not we're not waiting in for this thing that our kid does over and over and over again, and we're not waiting for that to happen. Then, okay, needs? What what am I supposed to do? Right? Instead, we can actually address that outside of that difficult moment. We can say, hey. I noticed we've been having a hard time with tooth brushing lately. Can we have a chat about that? Because I'd really like for that to be different. I'd like for our evenings to be different. Would you like for our evenings to be different? Chances are the kid probably does.Jen Lumanlan [00:07:53]:
Because if this is a big deal to you, then, you know, there have been time outs and all kinds of stress around toothbrushing. And then, okay, so we're we're trying to understand how each person is feeling. We're trying to understand what each person needs. And what the need is determines the strategy that we can use to help them meet the need. So I'm happy to dig further into that if you'd like, but I'm curious if you have any questions about that aspect.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:14]:
No. I'd love to delve a little bit deeper into needs because I know that in the book, you do talk about the importance of meeting both the parents and the child's needs, like you were talking about to reduce that conflict. So how can parents begin to identify and prioritize their own needs without feeling guilty or neglecting their children's?Jen Lumanlan [00:08:32]:
So it's super common for the parents that I work with to say to me, before I started working with you, I didn't even know that I had needs. Because we didn't learn this when we were kids. Right? And so just to be clear on what I'm talking about related to needs, I'm talking about things like rest, like self care, like respect, which is not necessarily having everybody do everything you say. Right? It can be, like, holding someone in esteem and high regard. And we all want respect, and our kids want respect too. It's things like ease. And we just want parenting to be a little bit easier for collaboration, for harmony with our kids. Right? These are the kinds of things I'm talking about related to needs.Jen Lumanlan [00:09:10]:
And so if we take tooth brushing as an example, right, could imagine if tooth brushing has been stressful because my kid has been resisting it. Let's say my kid is a toddler. My kid's actually 10 by now. But let's say it's a toddler, and I might think, okay. What is my need in this? Right? I might I might have been saying to my child, I need you to brush your teeth. That's not actually my need. My need is for protection of her health and safety. It is for a little bit of ease and collaboration and harmony in the evenings at the end of a long day.Jen Lumanlan [00:09:39]:
And if you're wanting to, like, explore what needs are, there's a a list of needs in the back of of the book. And there's also a quiz that I offer at your parentingmojo.com, which allows you to go through it's your parentingmojo.comforward/ quiz, and you can answer some simple questions about your child's behavior and get to your child's most important needs that come up over and over and over again. And you may well find that some of those are coming up in tooth brushing. So if your child has what we call a cherry need, right, there's the cherry on top of the cupcake, which is the 3 to 5 needs that are coming up over and over and over again. For many toddlers, autonomy is right up there at the top. They want to be able to have some kind of say over something that feels important to them. Underneath that, we have the frosting needs, which is the next 3 to 5 most important. Underneath that is kind of all of the other needs.Jen Lumanlan [00:10:26]:
And so we're always firstly looking at what are those cherry needs, and that quiz is gonna help you to understand what your child's cherry needs are. And so even if your child isn't speaking yet, right, if your child is too young to speak, if your child doesn't speak, if you've done this quiz, you can say, okay. What is it an autonomy? Is it possible the child wants to have some kind of say over what's happening here? How can I make that happen? Right? You're not giving the child necessarily the choice, do you want to brush teeth or not? But what kind of toothpaste do you wanna use? What kind of toothbrush do you wanna use? For us, oh my goodness. It it turned out to be I my daughter wanted to decide where we brushed. For a solid 6 months, we brushed in the living room. And so I might initially think, no. She should have brushed her teeth in the in the bathroom. That's where teeth are brushed.Jen Lumanlan [00:11:10]:
Right? But if I can find the cognitive flexibility to say, alright. What are my needs? Her health and safety, peace, ease, harmony. Does brushing teeth in the living room meet my needs? Yes. It does. Does brushing teeth in the living room meet her need for autonomy? Yes. It does. Then is there a reason why we can't brush teeth in the living room? No. There is not.Jen Lumanlan [00:11:28]:
And so that's what we did. And so the critical, critical piece here is that when it's a need for autonomy, right, it's not it's not the brushing teeth in the living room. It's some magical solution that will work for every child. If your child has a need for comfort, right, if you've been holding them down and forcing the toothbrush in their mouth, saying, let's brush in the living room is not gonna address that. And so we have to know what is the child's need, and then we find strategies to meet their need. And it feels good to have our needs met, and everybody wants to have it happen. And so that's how it helps us to get both of our needs met.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:59]:
So another thing that your books talk about, and really what you just kind of framed seems to fit in with it, is one of the key concepts you talk about is your problem solving approach, and it it basically what you just described. Are there other parts though of that approach that you could walk us through that would allow for someone to get a better sense of what the approach kind of how an adult would frame that approach, and also how a parent might then apply it to other challenges like tantrums or other situations like that.Jen Lumanlan [00:12:34]:
What I want to have parents see is that very, very often, these are not isolated instances. When your child is having tantrums, chances are it's kind of about the same thing over and over and over again. And so that represents a huge opportunity because you don't have to wait for the next tooth brushing session to address this. You can address this beforehand while everybody's calm, everybody's rested, everybody's fed, nobody's at the end of their rope. Right? That's the time ideally we want to address this. And that allows us to have more of a conversation. And even if your kid isn't talking yet, kids sense the difference between, you're gonna brush your teeth because I said so, because because I want what's good for you, and you have to brush your teeth so you don't get cavities, and all the reasons that we give them. And, oh my gosh, I really wish that this could be easier for both of us.Jen Lumanlan [00:13:22]:
I'm trying to figure out how do we meet both of our needs here. Right? Kids know the difference between those two things. And even if you can't fully understand the child's need, they are often willing to come towards you because you're trying. But I also wanna give you an example of, like, in the moment the kid is already melting down. And so I'm thinking of a parent that I coached a while ago whose child was having this meltdown, and it was coming up because the child and the parent were having 1 on 1 playtime in the afternoon, and it's coming time to go and pick the older child up from school. And so the kid has, like, a you know, the kid the the younger child who's at home with the parent is having a fallout on the floor, wailing, hitting, biting, all the rest of it meltdown that's happening. And the parent is trying to reason with the child. Right? Come on.Jen Lumanlan [00:14:06]:
It's time to go. We do this every day. Why is this so hard? We already had playtime. Let's go. And if you've ever had a meltdown yourself with your partner, with anyone else who's in your life, if you imagine your partner coming back and saying, but I told you a 100 times, this is how we do it. We can sort of get a sense for what it might be like to receive that from our parent. And what do we want instead? What we really want is someone to try to see it from our perspective. And so what I asked that parent to do and what she ended up doing was when the next time the child had the the the meltdown because they didn't have a chance to kinda talk about it beforehand, the parent kinda went in with, oh my goodness.Jen Lumanlan [00:14:46]:
I hear you. It's so hard to transition out of playtime with me. Right? Because it's so much fun, and you love it so much. And now we're going to pick up your sibling, and for the rest of the afternoon, you're gonna have to share me. You're gonna have to wait. You can't just have the thing that you want right at the moment that you want it. Is that what's going on for you? And the kid is like, yes. And we're done.Jen Lumanlan [00:15:05]:
And there's no more hitting, and there's no more biting, and there's no more flailing on the floor because the child was heard. And so I'm not saying this magically fixes every tantrum in your child's life, but I can tell you that when you see these things coming, when you see, okay. Yeah. Every day at this time, my kid has a tantrum. Why is that? What need are they trying to meet? Can I help them meet that need? That takes care of, like, a massive chunk of them up front, so you never even get into the tantrum in the first place. And then once you're in it, then the empathy the okay. What's really going on for you? Can I sit with you in this hard time that you're having? And that's where you find the real beauty of, yes. I just wanted to be heard.Jen Lumanlan [00:15:45]:
I just wanted somebody to acknowledge that it's hard for me to to stop playing with you and have to share you for the rest of the evening.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:51]:
So a lot of the examples you gave were of younger children. And in a perfect world, I would have loved to have had this book when my kids were really young. So if someone is hearing this and they're saying, I've got a tween, I've got a teen, and our relationship's not the best, we're in this fighting, we were fighting together, we're not seen eye to eye, you know, we're, you know, we're isolated, you know, we're we're not where we need to be. Are there things that they can do with this problem solving approach that they can start putting in place even though their children are not at that young age that they can start using right away?Jen Lumanlan [00:16:28]:
Yes. It's never ever, ever too late to do this. I mentioned that my parenting role models were not the best, and I've thought about this a lot actually. And, you know, what would have happened I guess I do wanna be clear. You know, they were doing the best they could with the tools that they had. And if one of them had learned these tools and had tried to make some kind of shift, even in my late teenage years, would that have made a difference? Yes. It absolutely would have. And so where I would try to start with this kind of thing is to to try to kind of back off where you see that you're using power to get your child to change their behavior.Jen Lumanlan [00:17:04]:
Not back off completely, but try to use a simple phrase. And that phrase is, I'm worried that dot dot dot. So if your, you know, your your kid is asking to do something, they wanna go out with friends, they whatever whatever is the thing that you're thinking about saying no to. That previously would you would have used your power, you would have made sure that they didn't do the thing that you that they're asking to do, that they really want do, that you don't want them to do. And so instead of of doing that, we can say, I'm worried that you're not gonna be safe. Right? I'm worried that this specific thing is going to happen. How can we make sure this thing doesn't happen? Because what what what the I'm worried that does is it helps me to articulate my need. I am worried for your safety.Jen Lumanlan [00:17:46]:
If I can know that certain parameters are in place that mean that I think you're gonna be safe, then, yeah, I'm willing to say yes to this thing. Then I don't have to use my power over you to try and get you to change your behavior. I think that what what parents you're describing or seeing is I get actually reading for the first time doctor Thomas Gordon's book on, parent effectiveness training, and he talks about power and influence. And when we've used power over our children for a long time, we tend to find we have less influence as they get older because people don't like being influenced by people who have used power over them. And so if we want to have influence over our children as they get older and and they realize, you know what? You don't you actually don't have any power over me anymore. I'm getting bigger to the point where you can't physically intimidate me, and once I have the car keys, right, I'm done. I'm out of here. You can't control me anymore.Jen Lumanlan [00:18:37]:
And if we still want to be able to influence our children at that point, we have to be willing to give up some of that power, and I'm worried that is a great place to start with that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:47]:
One of the other things that you talk about in the book is that many of the triggers, the triggers that all of us have internally, the things that set us off in our own parenting journey with our kids stem from how we were raised. How can parents begin to unpack and heal from their own childhood experiences to become more conscious, connected parents?Jen Lumanlan [00:19:09]:
Well, that could be another episode by itself. So, I mean, there's a lot there. And what parents that I work with tend to find is that they are most triggered by their child's behavior when they when their child gets to an age where they were having a hard time with their parents. So there's, you know, all the typical toddler stuff that is just hard when the toddler is resisting for the first time, and we used to resist as well. Right? We didn't like it either, being told what to do and that my way is the only way and that even if we try and kind of be nice about it, that ultimately, the kid's gonna do things the way that we want them to do. We didn't like that either. We pushed back against it. And, eventually, we learned there's no point in pushing back because the parent's gonna win eventually.Jen Lumanlan [00:19:50]:
And so you know, most people find that stage difficult for that reason. And then as we go through life, there was probably an age where we kinda butted up against our parents for for whatever reason. And then when our child gets to that age, then we remember all those struggles. It's like they're they're right here again. They're right here with us, and they remind us of the hard time that we had, the ways that we were dominated by our parents. And I think this, it's especially difficult actually for parents who have done a little bit of work, who are trying to do things differently with their child. Because when their child is doing something the parent finds difficult, there's this kind of tug of war happening in their heads. There's this, I know what my values are.Jen Lumanlan [00:20:31]:
I know how I want to raise you. I want to be in this power sharing relationship with you, but I would have been punished for doing the thing you just did. If I never spoken to my parent like that, right, they would have hit me. And so it's like there's this this massive, you know, you can imagine this tug of war literally happening inside of our heads. And and it's happening in this moment when our kid is doing something we told them not to do. And the amount of mental capacity it takes to be able to navigate that and also be calm for your child and show up for your child is is overwhelming, and so we snap. And so that's why I teach a whole 10 week workshop called taming your triggers on where does this stuff come from, really digging deep and to start healing those things so that we don't have to carry around the weight of that hurt every day. And, also, really digging deep into the the tools that I've been mentioning that are described in the book and, like, how do we actually use them when I'm feeling triggered? Right? How do I how do I create a pause? Because that's that's the critical phase for especially for people who are triggered, is creating that pause between the thing my child does and my reaction.Jen Lumanlan [00:21:42]:
And once you have that pause, then you have a moment to be able to say, okay. What are my values here? What's really important to me? What is my need? Okay. This is it. And so the thing that's gonna come out of my mouth is gonna be x rather than, you know, whatever it is that currently flies out in the moment that our child does this thing right now.Jen Lumanlan [00:22:00]:
And so many times, it is that latter aspect.Jen Lumanlan [00:22:03]:
And so often, it's your parents' voice that comes out. You're like, where did that come from? Yes. Because our parents raised us using these tools. They they dominated us. Even if they didn't mean to, even if they were doing the best that they could, they dominated us. And so when we're in these stressed moments, the thing that comes out is the thing that was modeled for us.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:22]:
You know, the final thing that I think that I'd mentioned is that in your book, you really talk about transforming the family dynamic and that you say that through transforming this dynamic within our own homes, we can contribute to what you call a broader societal change. So how do you envision parents using these parenting tools to raise children who are capable of challenging system systematic injustices in the world around them?Jen Lumanlan [00:22:48]:
Yeah. I mean, I see it happening already in the parents that I work with. And there's an example in the book of a parent who parent Maria and her her daughter, Isabelle. And, you know, Isabelle is one of those kids who, from the get go, knew exactly what she wanted and would scream if you held her the wrong way and would refuse to put her shoes on as a toddler. Right? Even even to go to a a nice outing. Right? The parents are like, okay. Put your shoes on. Well, no.Jen Lumanlan [00:23:13]:
You told me to do it. No. I'm not doing it. And they stand there and stand off for half an hour, and the kid's not doing anything, and and they never make it out. And so Maria very quickly realized that using these power over tools was just gonna result in endless repetitions of that situation and started using these power sharing tools. And the transformation in their own relationship has been really profound. I mean, this is a kid who, I think Maria actually sprained her ankle in the house one day, and Isabelle stepped over her and said, you know, what? What's for lunch? No empathy, no compassion, no nothing. And within a period of months, right, we see empathy, we see compassion start coming out.Jen Lumanlan [00:23:57]:
We see the kids all around the table, and some of the kids are teasing mom. And and Isabelle says, I'm looking at mom, and it seems like she's not up for being teased right now. Right? Reading mom's cues and being able to say, you know what? I'm not seeing that that mom's really into this. And so that's just within the family. And then we look outside the family, and Isabel sees that there's a kid in the school who has ADHD and is being bullied by the peer group that Isabelle is a part of, and Isabelle says, you know what? No. I'm not I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna be part of this group and goes over and makes friends with a kid with ADHD. So that's, you know, that's a super small example.Jen Lumanlan [00:24:32]:
And then we start to extrapolate that out to other systems in the world. Right? If we think about things like racism, it's ultimately a power over system. It's me saying, my right to exist as a white person, to be comfortable as a white person is more important than people of color's right to exist in their whole selves. And what if we were to say, you know what? Your needs are just as important as my needs. I don't believe that these systems of domination out in the world can exist when we all perceive each other's needs to be equally as important as our own. And so, yes, it's gonna take some time. Right? This can't be the only way we go about doing these things. Parents are not responsible in themselves by, you know, just alone for solving these societal challenges.Jen Lumanlan [00:25:16]:
We also need lots of other work as well. But I truly believe that seeing each other's needs as as important as our own is a critical piece of making the world a place where everybody can thrive.Jen Lumanlan [00:25:30]:
I really appreciate you sharing everything that you've been sharing today. And if people want to find out more about you, your podcast, your book, where's the best place for them to go?Jen Lumanlan [00:25:40]:
So everything I do flows through your parentingmojo.com. I would definitely advise parents to go check out the quiz at your parentingmojo.comforward/quiz. Because once you know your child's needs, everything just gets so much easier. Because as soon as you see resistance, you can say, okay. Where is this coming from? Is it a need? Oh, yes. It's autonomy. It's connection. It's, you know, whatever that cherry need is.Jen Lumanlan [00:26:03]:
And then you can very quickly find the strategies that meet their need instead of having to look through the list of 50 needs and say, oh, which one is it? So I would definitely recommend that. I am on Facebook and Instagram. I don't use them super much, but I am there as well. And so, yeah, subscribe to podcast episodes as well, through the through the website. And the book is at Parenting Beyond Power.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:25]:
Well, I really appreciate you sharing all of this today for what you're putting out into the world and what you're doing to help parents be better parents, and I wish you all the best.Jen Lumanlan [00:26:32]:
Thanks so much, Chris. It was great to be with you.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong, empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:32]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a -
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Exploring the Role of Fathers in Pregnancy and Beyond
In a heartwarming and insightful episode of the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis chats with Matthew Morris, who shares his unique journey into fatherhood. Through experiences that span 15 countries, Morris does more than recount personal stories; he advocates for systemic changes in how fathers are supported during the pregnancy journey. Here's a deeper dive into the profound topics discussed in this enriching episode.
The Discovery of ParenthoodMatthew Morris and his wife Shannon found out they were expecting their first child in the most memorable way. Following an offhand Mother’s Day comment, a series of pregnancy tests confirmed the joyous news. As fate would have it, the couple discovered they were having a girl at a family gathering through a creative, heartwarming gender reveal—Matthew dyed his hair pink to share the news.
A Journey Across ContinentsBefore settling into parenthood, the adventurous couple decided to travel to 15 countries, immersing themselves in different cultures and learning global perspectives on pregnancy and childbirth. They planned their destinations whimsically; Brazil if a boy, Thailand if a girl, turning every step into an adventure. Their travel decisions were also influenced by significant life changes, including job losses and leaving active military duty. These pivotal moments pushed them forward into the next chapter of their lives.
Navigating Healthcare and BirthThe Morris’s initial plan was to have their baby in Denmark, attracted by the progressive and cost-effective healthcare system. However, visa issues forced them back to the U.S. at 35 weeks pregnant. Matthew expressed strong critiques of the U.S. healthcare system's support for childbirth, and particularly its lack of resources for fathers. Ultimately, Shannon opted for a home birth in their Chicago apartment, supported by a midwife and a doula. This experience emphasized the importance of having a birthing team that values the father’s role—Matthew even got to "catch" his daughter when she was born on February 2nd, 2024.
Advocacy for Doulas and Progressive Paternity LeaveFrom their global travels, Matthew observed how other countries treat pregnancy as a natural life event rather than a medical condition. He strongly advocates for the inclusion of doulas and midwives in insurance coverage, given their essential role in supporting both parents. His experiences highlighted the stark differences in parental leave policies worldwide, with some countries offering up to 24 months of government-supported leave—a far cry from the limited options in the U.S.
The Birth of a BookInspired by their journey, Matthew authored "The Partner's Purpose During Pregnancy." This practical guide offers straightforward, actionable steps to help expectant fathers get involved early and remain supportive throughout the pregnancy. Matthew's insights are geared towards making the transition into fatherhood less daunting, emphasizing the importance of preparation and involvement.
Matthew Morris’s journey into fatherhood is a testament to the importance of an involved and supportive parenting partner. His stories and insights underscore the need for systemic changes in how we support fatherhood and childbirth in the U.S. For fathers looking to connect and learn, resources like the "Dads with Daughters" podcast and the "Fatherhood Insider" offer invaluable support. For more from Matthew Morris, visit his website at www.thepartnerspurpose.com and follow him on Instagram at @thepartnerspurpose.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on this journey together. You know, I've got 2 daughters, you've got daughters, and we are all rolling in the same direction. We're all working to raise those strong, independent women that we want for our daughters to become. And hopefully, by now, after 250 episodes that we've had of this podcast, you know that we cannot do this alone. You and I cannot do this alone. We have to be able to rely on others.Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]:
We have to be able to rely on working with one another to be able to lift each other up, to be able to learn and grow from each other, to be able to be the dads that we want to be. None of us have all of the tools, have all of the understanding. None of us have the perfect manual to follow to be that great dad that you want to be. But this podcast is here to be able to give you some, some hints, some tips, some things that you can do to be able to be that father that you want to be. So every week I bring you different guests, different people, people with different experiences, fathers, mothers, other people with resources that can help you to be able to see fatherhood in a little bit different way, provide you some tools for your toolbox, and help you to be able to become that father that you want to be. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Matthew Morris is with us today. Really excited to have him here.Christopher Lewis [00:01:49]:
And we're gonna be talking about his own journey in becoming a father. And prior to becoming a father, he and his wife traveled to 15 countries to learn about parenthood and preparation for the birth of their daughter this past February. And, as he says, it's been a wild ride. And I think for every father, it's a wild ride when you lead up to to to fatherhood. And and once your daughter's here, it becomes an even greater ride, and it continues to go on throughout their lives. So I'm really excited to have him here today to talk about fatherhood, talk about his own journey and a little bit more, and to introduce him to you. Matthew, thanks so much for being here today.Matthew Morris [00:02:28]:
Thank you, Christopher. Glad to be here.Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. Glad that you and I were able to connect and be able to have you talk about your own journey. And one of the first things that I always love to do is turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?Matthew Morris [00:02:46]:
My wife was standing at the top of the staircase, and I had just walked in the door, and I heard her scream. And my wife is a hardcore former United States Navy veteran, and she just, like, even keel all the time. Things do not rile her. And when I heard, bat, yeah, from the top of the staircase, I thought one of 2 things has happened. I said, okay. The house is being breached, and we are about to go on the defense, or she's pregnant. And sure enough, I look up, and she has 3 pregnancy tests in her hands like Wolverine. And I am I book it up the stairs, and she looks at me, and she's like, can you see the pink line? Can you see it? And mind you, my eyes aren't what they used to be.Matthew Morris [00:03:41]:
I'm looking. I'm like, may maybe. I think so. And she goes, okay. You pee on 1, and then we'll know. And so shortly that was right after Mother's Day last year. And we were coming back from a wedding, and a woman had wished Shannon. She said happy Mother's Day.Matthew Morris [00:04:02]:
And Shannon was like, I'm not a mom, and and we were walking away. And she kinda elbowed me and was like, wouldn't it be funny if and so I found out initially that that she was pregnant and went in a few weeks later to to verify everything. And then then we knew she was pregnant. Obviously, didn't know it was gonna be a little girl until a few months later. And the way that we found out that it was gonna be a little girl was we were we were at a family reunion with Shannon's family. It was a birthday party. And she gets an email, and we're we're sitting all sitting around kinda talking, talking. And, again, Shannon Shannon does not get super excited or super emotional about anything.Matthew Morris [00:04:50]:
She's so just level headed. And and she puts her phone down. She looks at me and goes, we gotta go. And I said, why? What was going on? She goes, I know what we're gonna have. And I said, you mean for dinner? She goes, no. For the rest of our lives. And I said, okay. So we say goodbyes, and we go to the haircare store, and she buys a bottle of blue hair dye and a bottle of pink hair dye.Matthew Morris [00:05:22]:
And we go to her parents' house, and we said, here's Matthew what we're gonna do. I'm gonna blindfold you. I'm gonna dye your hair one color or the other, and that is how we are going to do the gender reveal. And I have a very proud mohawk. And so if you go on her Instagram, there's a hilarious video of me blindfolded and Shannon with bright pink hair dye, and I take the blindfold off. And as soon as she hands me in the mirror, well, the sun's behind me, so I look in the mirror, and it just blinds me. So I can't even say I can't even tell what I'm looking at myself. And finally, I look around and I see it's pink, and then that's that's how we found out.Matthew Morris [00:06:04]:
So that was kind of the the spark to our international journey. And now so we're in fast forward. That was a little over a year ago. We come back to now. Shannon and I made a bet. We have a little boy, we're going to Brazil. And if we have a little girl, we're gonna go to Thailand. And so right now, as we are wrapping up our adventure in Chicago, we are prepping to set sail for title.Matthew Morris [00:06:31]:
And so that in between everywhere that we went from the beginning of 2023 to now. And we had to work through our personal endeavors. So January, February of 2023, Shannon was the tech layoff, and then we found out Shannon was pregnant in April of 2023, and then my separation from the marine corps came in June of 2023. And so we went from dual income, no kids, to dual unemployed with a baby on the way. And there is nothing that is a better catalyst for it's time to grab life by the horns than realizing, hey. We gotta figure out somehow to eat. And with that, and this comes into the fatherhood aspect, in our study of how childbirth and the medical system of childbirth in the United States is so far behind the rest of the world, unfortunately, we actually made the decision that we didn't wanna have the baby in the States. And that was a big part of why we left the country.Matthew Morris [00:07:45]:
So our original plan was to have Maven in Denmark because Denmark, Sweden, that region has a extremely progressive and much safer approach to childbirth, and it's also significantly cheaper. Even with the cost of flying over there, living temporarily, and paying for the birth out of pocket, all of that would still have been cheaper than going through an uninsured birth in a US medical system. And the big challenge for us was coming off of active duty where almost all of your medical is paid for. When that came to an end, we didn't have health insurance for childbirth. And so what is normally nothing out of pocket with your insurance policy is between $3,025 total to have a baby in the United States. And in addition to that, the restrictions that are put on expecting moms when they are going through, the tests that are mandatory, the lack of education for dads and partners or birthing partners or whoever that person is that is supporting mom through her pregnancy. It's such an afterthought in the United States, which is what set us off on putting the information together for the partner's purpose during pregnancy. So fast forward a few months, our visas were not processed properly, and so we had to come back to the United States when Shannon was 35 weeks pregnant.Matthew Morris [00:09:31]:
Well, the FAA won't let you travel at 36 weeks. So it was either be considered an illegal immigrant in a foreign country where we were having a baby or hightail it back to the United States and try and get connected with a midwife and doula team here, which fortunately, we did. So Shannon made the decision that she wanted to have a midwife and doula guided home birth. And so in our apartment in Lincoln Park, Chicago on February 2nd, 2024 at about 1:45 AM. She gave birth with no meds, no anesthesia, just the raw power of being the woman that she is to our daughter. And our birth team coached me through, and I actually got to catch my daughter. I was the quarterback before the hike and had her in my arms and then passed her to the midwife to do all of the immediate post birth things. And baby is healthy and just a a little tornado right now.Matthew Morris [00:12:56]:
And that divide and conquer team, I stand beside and advocate for work on it. And part of what we're also trying to advocate for is the use of doulas and midwives to be covered by general insurance. Because that is a big reason why so many people don't use them is because it's not considered a necessary medical expense. Well, my advocation to that is it is. It is just as important for the birthing or the pregnancy for me to have someone that I can ask questions of, that I can go to, that has experience so that Shannon didn't have to in dealing with with pregnancy brain or brain fog or exhaustion or all of the stress that your body and mind undergo during pregnancy, I had a person that I could ask these questions of, get the answers for so that she could focus on her health and the health of the baby.Christopher Lewis [00:13:57]:
So I guess one of the questions that I would ask, with that whole journey is you took a number of months while she was going through that pregnancy, as you said, to be able to learn more about pregnancy, learn more about what happens in other countries to be able to create this book that you've created. And I know that you were out for, I think it was 41 weeks, you said you went to 15 countries. And I guess let's talk on the high level. What are some of the biggest things that you learned in going to those different countries, seeing what other countries do in comparison to what happens in the United States?Matthew Morris [00:14:38]:
So saying we were mostly in Sangin. And by and large, there is a different mindset in the way that pregnancy and pregnant people are viewed. My biggest lesson, my biggest learning point was that pregnancy is not a disease. In the United States, we treat pregnancy as a disease. A pregnant mom is looked at as having symptoms. Well, symptoms are the byproduct of illness as opposed to what I viewed there was pregnancy is just part of life. It's the natural progression of all things culminating in birth, and because it's treated so much differently, you have significantly lower rates of things like postpartum depression, you have a lower infant mortality rate, you have a lower maternal mortality rate. The other piece is the recovery time.Matthew Morris [00:15:45]:
So commonly referred to as maternity leave, paternity leave, and what's referred to as nesting leave. Now in the United States, all of your leave comes from the company. In these areas, the leave is partially compensated by a government organization. So if you take the longest that we saw was 24 months of total family leave, and that leave could be used by either parent, either during or after the pregnancy, and and there was no expiration date. So imagine in the states, you can't even fathom that. The longest publicly traded company that we have found in the United States is 18 weeks. And that's good. That's better for our area.Matthew Morris [00:16:44]:
But the question that we continue to ask is if you are trying to advocate for employees to come back and remain loyal, what are the things that you're doing to incentivize them? And what stands out more than anything is companies that that advocate for more family recovery time. And that's the biggest difference that we've seen from overseas to the states.Christopher Lewis [00:17:08]:
I appreciate you sharing that. And now that you I have transitioned into being a dad, a dad of a daughter, I talk to a lot of dads that step into fatherhood. And fatherhoods can be scary just in its own right in being able to step into that new persona and being able to be there for your child. I hear from a lot of dads with daughters that there's a particular fear of being a father to a daughter. And I guess for you, what's your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter?Matthew Morris [00:17:38]:
That when she comes of age, she will come to me and say, father, I am not prepared to go out on my own. And that encompasses a lot. And when I say come of age, there's not a number that's associated with it. She might be ready to set out on her own at 13. She might not be ready to set out on her own until she's 20. Her development is going to happen on its own timeline. My responsibility as a dad is to hold her hand until it's time to let go. And when it's time to let go, I have to have given her every ounce of me so that she's ready.Matthew Morris [00:18:20]:
Does that mean that it's gonna be smooth sailing and she's gonna have no trials of her own, and she's never gonna be in a situation where she has to fight for herself or for the other people that she loves and believes in? Absolutely not. But when it's time for her to fight, she is ready.Christopher Lewis [00:18:37]:
That's fair. Now as I mentioned, you have put together this book, this book that you're putting out into the world to be able to help other dads, the partner's purpose during pregnancy. Talk to me about that and why you decided that you wanted to take the time to be able to put all of this learning into this, and what are you hoping that people are gonna take out of it?Matthew Morris [00:18:57]:
Joshua Sharfstein (zero zero four:fifty seven): I put the partner's purpose during pregnancy together. Number 1, it was my personal way of processing. So on the fortunate side of being unemployed for that period of time, it gave me the head space to sit down and start asking really hard questions, to start reading the books. Right? I read all of them. I read what to expect when you're expecting, the birth partner, bumpin', misconceptions, the Mayo Clinic's guide to pregnancy. Oh, boy. Let me tell you. If, if you're looking for a captivating read, sit down and and pop that 600 pager open.Matthew Morris [00:19:35]:
But the reason that I did was I treated Shannon's pregnancy and the birth of my daughter as my new mission. When we would fly in the marine corps, you would prep for sometimes weeks for one specific mission. And you would begin building that knowledge base of the operating area, the weapon systems that you were going to employ, the teammates that you were going to be fighting with and supporting, and the enemy that had a say in every action that you made, well, this was my new mission. And for me to process the intensity of watching Shannon's body change, watching her mindset on things change, I had to have an outlet. And my outlet was putting a pen to paper because when I was asking some of these questions from the point of view of an expecting dad, there were no answers. And fortunately, there is now a culture shift in the United States away from the way that our dads were were kinda forced into it. And what I mean by that is I have a very loving and supportive father. Shannon has a very loving and supporting father, but there was no such thing as dad being there after the baby was born.Matthew Morris [00:21:00]:
Took mom to the hospital, baby was born, and 2, 3 days later, dad's back at work. And that's just the way it was. Well, now one of the positives from COVID is the acknowledgment of remote work and the fact that so many jobs can be done from home, which allows you the opportunity to be in proximity to your kids for a longer period of time. And with Partner's Purpose, our mission is to show that you can have a faster postpartum recovery period. You can reduce postpartum depression and other maternal mental health situations if you start being involved and educated way before baby comes. And the other piece is the books that I listed, they have a place on my bookshelves, and I'm not saying that if you are in this phase of birth not to go study them. Go. Do it.Matthew Morris [00:22:42]:
And it's practical. It's not theoretical. It's not big universe things. It's tangible. It's make your birth plan together. It's read out loud to your baby before you go to sleep. It's make her a sandwich. It's let her cry.Matthew Morris [00:23:00]:
It's these things that when you're in a stressful situation or sorry. When you're in a a calm situation, it's like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. But pregnancy is stressful for both parties involved. And so when we can lay out, do this, do this, do this, I am taking that thought out and replacing it with very basic, simple muscle memory. It's just like training. Marine Corps, you do rifle training. You learn every single in and out aspect of your weapon so that when you are in an extremely high stress environment, you don't have to stop and think, wait, hang on.Matthew Morris [00:23:40]:
How do I take it off safety? How do I aim? No. You can be running on 36 hours of no sleep and half a stale piece of bread, and you still know how to make your weapon function when you need it to function. Maybe not that extreme in the average American pregnancy, but the concepts are the same. If I can lay your steps out for you, if I can show you ways to be involved, then all you have to do is pick it up, open it to any page and say, I know how to filter your feed. It's one of the other notes. I know how to invest in our education so that we can develop informed opinions, so that we can build our birth team together. So that if the doctor or the midwife or the doula or the nurse practitioner tells us we have to do something, we know what that means, and we can ask questions on if we really do have to do that or, and this is my favorite, we've always done it that way, so that's why we do it. Well, just because something has always been done does not necessarily mean it's the right way.Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Matthew Morris [00:24:56]:
Yes, sir. Let's do it.Christopher Lewis [00:24:57]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?Matthew Morris [00:24:59]:
Exciting.Christopher Lewis [00:25:00]:
Let's think down the road, 18, 20 years. If I was to talk to your daughter, how would you want her to describe you?Matthew Morris [00:25:06]:
Empowering and encouraging. I want her to, at no point, ever question if I have her back. I also acknowledge that probably is going to mean there are going to be moments where she is pissed at the decisions that I make. But if I've set her up for success to take on the world whatever way she chooses to take it on, then good. I have done my job.Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Matthew Morris [00:25:33]:
My wife holds me accountable for being a better dad. My daughter inspires me to be a better dad.Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]:
Now you've given a bunch of pieces of advice today, things that you've learned so far. You've got more to learn as well as your daughter gets older. But as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Matthew Morris [00:25:51]:
Don't ever let your kindness be mistaken for weakness. You have now entered into a world where you have something that is precious, especially if you have a daughter. And my baby is only 6 months old and I see this with strangers. They will come up to her and she is beautiful, and cute, and bubbly, and engaging, and interacting. And the first thing they wanna do is reach out and squeeze her. That is not an acceptable course of action for anyone to attempt to physically touch my infant daughter without my express consent. Basically, if I don't give you permission to give her a hug, to grab her arm, to grab her cheek, you doing that is a violation of her personal space, and you might get smacked. If I don't get you, her mom will.Matthew Morris [00:26:50]:
And as a dad, it does not matter what your culture is. It does not matter what your background is. It does not matter what other people tell you. You protect what is yours the best way that you believe it to be. And don't ever doubt yourself for doing the thing that you believe is in the best interest of your daughter.Christopher Lewis [00:27:14]:
Now if people wanna find out more about you, your book, and more about what you're doing next, where's the best place for them to go?Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.
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In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the special guest Markus Wolf opened up about his experiences as a father to two daughters. Markus shared valuable insights into the multi-faceted journey of fatherhood, touching on themes ranging from emotional intelligence to the importance of male connections. Here, we delve deeper into the key topics from their enlightening conversation.
The Joy and Fear of Knowing You'll be a Dad The Initial EcstasyWhen Markus found out he was going to be a father, the joy was immediate. "I was ecstatic," he said, reflecting on that transformative moment. Unlike some men who may be taken by surprise or even ambivalence at the prospect of fatherhood, Markus had known from a young age that he wanted to be a dad. He even felt that having daughters was a form of karmic balance, avoiding the potential rebelliousness he feared from having a son.
The Inherent FearsDespite his enthusiasm, Markus admitted that the journey of fatherhood comes with its own set of anxieties. One of his biggest concerns has always been about maintaining open lines of communication. He emphasized that building a home where his daughters feel safe to express themselves emotionally is crucial, yet challenging. This desire for transparent communication stemmed from his own struggles with emotional intelligence, something he recognized needed constant work.
Crafting Unique Relationships with Each Child Individual AwarenessOne of the critical parenting strategies Markus highlighted was the importance of recognizing the distinct personalities of each child. For example, his daughter Madison is a "fireball," prone to expressing herself loudly, while Sienna tends to close off and become quiet. Understanding these differences has allowed Markus to tailor his parenting approach, ensuring that he meets each daughter’s emotional needs effectively.
Skill Development Through Coaching TechniquesDrawing from his career as a fitness coach, Markus has seamlessly integrated coaching principles into his parenting. He speaks of a "confidence model" where he gradually builds his daughters' skill sets in a manner that empowers them. Much like his clients who increasingly master fitness routines, his children too are slowly being endowed with various life skills. Whether it’s making breakfast or picking up their toys, these seemingly mundane tasks are steps toward building a well-rounded individual.
Balancing Emotions and Strengthening Connections Managing TemperamentsMarkus is candid about one of his personal challenges—being a bit of a "hothead." He regularly finds himself working on temper control to avoid alienating his daughters. For Markus, being in a better emotional state often involves engaging in physical activity and maintaining connections with other men. These practices help him manage stress better, creating a more harmonious home environment.
The Role of Male ConnectionsThe COVID-19 pandemic brought to light an essential aspect of Markus's life—male interaction. Prior to the outbreak, he found much-needed camaraderie in his daily interactions with clients and friends. The pandemic made him realize how vital these connections were for his mental well-being. According to Markus, this communication acts as a stress-relief mechanism, enabling him to return home balanced and prepared for fatherhood duties.
The Mentor and Coach Pivot Incorporating Coaching into ParentingMarkus describes his approach as "Miyagi-ing" his kids, reminiscent of the lessons from "The Karate Kid." By embedding valuable life skills subtly into daily routines, he's preparing his daughters for the real world without them even realizing it. This stealth approach to skill-building enables Markus to parent effectively, ensuring his daughters are ready for life's challenges while maintaining a supportive relationship.
Role Models and InspirationsHe also spoke about the crucial need for every man to retain some level of selfishness, not in a negative sense, but in terms of self-care. By maintaining his own well-being, Markus not only becomes a better father but also a better role model. The "loneliness epidemic" among men is something Markus is keenly aware of, actively working to combat it through his practice of connecting with other fathers and men.
The Imperfect Yet Rewarding Journey of FatherhoodMarkus Wolf’s journey through fatherhood is not about being perfect; it’s about being present and continuously striving for improvement. He emphasizes that fatherhood is a blessing that requires a balanced approach—recognizing individual needs, maintaining personal well-being, and building strong, open relationships. Markus's story serves as a powerful reminder that fatherhood, with all its challenges, is an evolving adventure, filled with moments of joy, learning, and profound love.
For more insights and advice on fatherhood, join the "Dads with Daughters" community and explore resources that could make your parenting journey a little smoother.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to have these conversations with you where we are walking on this path together, where you and I are working to raise our daughters in the best way that we know how. And the most important thing that everyone needs to understand, no matter if you have 1 daughter, 2 daughters, 7 daughters, doesn't matter, is that we don't have to do this alone. And every week I love being able to have a conversation with you, to walk with you as we are walking down this path together, as I said, But knowing that, we don't all know everything. There is not the there is not one right way to father, and there's not one playbook to follow. So it is important for us to be able to learn from others, find other resources, find more tools for our toolbox that we can pull from to be able to be the best dads that we want to be that will help our daughters to be the women that they want to be in the future. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have different experiences, that are walking this path alongside of you and are doing things maybe in a little bit different way.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]:
But that's okay because we can learn and grow from all of their experiences as well. And this week, we have another great guest with us today. Markus Wolf is with us today. And Markus is a father of 2 daughters, and I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share his experiences with us. Markus, thanks so much for being here today.Markus Wolf [00:01:56]:
Thanks for having me, Chris.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:57]:
It is my pleasure. Love having you here today. 1st and foremost, question I always start off with. I love being able to have the power to turn the clock back in time. I know you have 2 daughters. So So I wanna go back to that first moment. That first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head?Markus Wolf [00:02:13]:
I was ecstatic. I really was. I knew I wanted to be a dad since I was very young, which some dads never expect to have a child. Some of them never even wanted to have a child and I knew it. I knew it since I was in grade school. I was like, it was part of the vision. I'm going to be a father. So when it happened, it was just kind of I knew I was with the right woman.Markus Wolf [00:02:32]:
I knew everything was just pieced together perfectly. So I was really, really excited, especially girl for some reason. I think, I was pretty tough as a son, and I just didn't want the payback that my father got. So it was kinda nice to just know that I was like, okay. Great. I only have to deal with a a daughter and then I got a second one. So that was like, okay. Never gonna deal with a son.Markus Wolf [00:02:51]:
Nothing wrong with having sons, of course.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:53]:
So you said you always knew that you wanted to be a father. Talk to me about that. What was it about being a father that really, I'm gonna say intrigued you or made you want to be a father yourself? You know,Markus Wolf [00:03:06]:
Chris, it's kinda hard to explain. Right? It just some kids grow up and they wanna be firefighters. They wanna be doctors. And then some of them fulfill that that vision. And it was just part of the process of, like, what I pictured myself. I said to myself, I wanted the white picket fence house. I wanted kids. I wanted that lifestyle.Markus Wolf [00:03:23]:
So I'm not really sure how to even explain it. It was just something that I knew that I desired.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:27]:
I talked to a lot of different dads. A lot of different dads tell me that walking into fatherhood is a bit scary. There's some fear that goes along with being a dad. A lot of it comes back to the fact that there's no playbook to really follow that outside of the mentoring or what you've seen in your life. As you look at the experiences that you've had thus far as a father, what's been your biggest fear in raising daughters?Markus Wolf [00:03:50]:
Communication is something you really want. It's one of the hardest things when it comes to parenting. And the the again, part of what I always pictured was my children were gonna always be able to come to me for support and to open up emotionally. And then I realized really quickly, and I think kids do this, relationships do this as well. They expose what you haven't been working on. And I wasn't working on my emotional intelligence. I mean, God bless my wife, Lindsay, for even, like, always just putting up with my, you know, I'm very like, you could call it passionate, but I usually just call it hot tempered. And when you have children again, they're not going to want to come to a human being who just doesn't know how to sit there and and, you know, understand where they're coming from and really be able to just not try to, you know, do the manly thing of just fixing their scenario.Markus Wolf [00:04:38]:
So that's the one thing I'm always afraid of. I just want them to not feel like they're ever afraid to come to me to be, I need support with X, Y, and Z. And then, because perhaps I'm not showing the greatest of light, they don't come to me. That'd be the, the, probably the worst thing because they, I don't know. I mean, I feel like I've always valued having mentors and I don't need to be their top mentor, but I would like to be someone that could come to.Markus Wolf [00:04:59]:
And I'm definitely gonna be following back up with that on the mentorship piece because I think that that's something that you are incorporating into your fatherhood and I wanna delve a little bit deeper into that. But before I do, I wanna ask you a little bit about when you raise children, it's not always easy. There are ups, downs, sideways, everything in between. And there are good days, there are bad days, there are you know what I mean. So, what has been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter?Markus Wolf [00:05:29]:
I mean, you kind of said it. I'm very regimented. It's just the way I can handle the toughness of life, if you want to say. And things have to be put in place so perfectly. And that's not parenting. And that's even different when you have 2 different children that have different requirements, different skill sets. I've tried with one of them will work on a Monday and then it won't work on a Tuesday and it's incredibly frustrating. And then again, yeah, it's a constant roller coaster.Markus Wolf [00:05:53]:
That's probably the toughest part because it would be so great if they just did exactly what I asked them to do all the time, but they don't. So it's probably that constant battle I have to have with myself to just slow it down and not desire so much. It's just, like, let it go type of thing.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:11]:
Now you talk just talked about the fact that what works with one child may not work with the other. And every child is is different and the personalities are different. So talk to me about what you've had to do to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your daughters that may be different from each other. Oh, IMarkus Wolf [00:06:28]:
mean, first, yeah, you have to almost understand what their qualities are, right? I mean, I have my oldest daughter Madison, who she's just a fireball. So she'll rather yell, she'll scream. So she'll still voice her and she'll still communicate with words. And then you obviously have to, you know, deal with that. You just have to try to, like, bring the person bring Madison down a little bit. With my other daughter, Sienna, she just closes off. Like, she doesn't use words. She gets really quiet.Markus Wolf [00:06:52]:
So then you're always just trying to figure out, well, now I know that this one is up and you gotta bring this one down to balance and the other one's a little bit down and you gotta bring it down. So that's been the first one. It's just being aware of how they respond to certain type of emotions. And then when you understand it, then you're like, okay, cool. Now what do I have in my tool belt to to bring one down and bring the other one up?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]:
Now you talked about that sometimes you can be a little bit of a hothead and you have to temper that. As you said, you don't want your children to be afraid to come to you because of that. How have you had to work on that to be able to get to a point where either you're in the right space or that you've had to had those conversations with your daughters, and you might not have had to have them yet with them so that they understand. But how have you been able to realign yourself in being a father and knowing that your emotions may be a little bit more heated and you have to be able to adjust for that.Markus Wolf [00:07:50]:
I'm in fitness. I'm in health. And for me, I believe it's always about putting yourself into like a better state. So if you're like energetic, the stress is relieved. So usually, I think most dads can agree that the milk spilled on the floor is not why you had this huge yelling outburst or the TV not being shut off when you asked for it to be shut off is not really why you're you're yelling. Because if you really put things into perspective, you're like, okay. Am I really gonna get mad at this at a child for not shutting off the TV? Or am I mad because there's a whole bunch of other things I'm incredibly stressed out about that I hadn't just, you know, worked through. So for me, I have to always put myself into a state.Markus Wolf [00:08:26]:
And one of them that I've really worked on for the last 2 years is I have to have a male connection at least once a week. That is like a mandatory and it's worked fabulously because once I do it, I come back and I'm I could recognize myself being like, oh, okay. So I think it was just because I needed a little bit of like stress relief. So I mean, obviously stress stress relief can look different for so many other men, but that has been the one that just brings me to the state that I need to be for parenting, if that makes sense.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:52]:
It does. And now you talked about the fact that you are a mentor, but you're also a coach. You are and you're incorporating some of those things that you've been doing in your own business as a fitness coach, as a coach in general into your parenting. So talk to me about how you've been able to pivot that in being able to do what you're doing with clients and trying to incorporate that into the work that you're doing in trying to be the father that you want to be?Markus Wolf [00:09:29]:
I stumbled upon this. It must have been just almost like an epiphany. I was just obviously I was coaching a lot of men and parenting every single day. And then I started to realize there's something there where the ultimate goal, I believe this is my parent and style. I don't know if this is all fathers is my job is to set them up for the world, right? And the more skill sets I give them, the more, like, you know, let's say even like the emotional intelligence skills around the house. All these like little things are foundational tools that you do for clients. Like clients, they need to have foundational tools to get food prepared so they could eat healthier meals. They could go outside and prioritize themselves.Markus Wolf [00:10:08]:
So there's there's very much I tried to work in. What is the process number 1 for this child? I mean, where are we at? Like, you know, at 3 years old, they could barely pick up many things. But at 4 years old, they can empty the dishes. At 5 years old, they can make their own breakfast, things like that. So I started to realize that my coaching style was always like that. It's kind of like a, I call it the confidence model where you take someone and you just, what is the one thing that could boost their confidence? But it's a very easy thing that they can do. And then each time you have to recognize what is the next thing they need to do to again move towards those skill sets that you were speaking of. So I've been doing it with my children.Markus Wolf [00:10:42]:
They're excellent at things around the house now without realizing that it wasn't, I'm asking, like, you know, it's not doesn't feel like a chore, I guess, I suppose you're saying. Because, again, I'm gonna use this great reference because I've been watching Cobra Kai for those past couple weeks, which is I Miyagi then. You know, it's mean I just and I do that with my clients. I Miyagi them to just suddenly have these skill sets and now they're like, oh my goodness. Now I'm like equipped for the world and I'm like, yes. I did what I needed to do.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:05]:
Now even in Cobra Kai and Karate Kid, Daniel san ends up figuring out that he's getting Miyagi ed. So your kids are going to figure it out sometime. And they're probably going to be like, what the heck, dad? Why are you doing this? How are you gonna react?Markus Wolf [00:11:19]:
I might even just do what I just did right now. I might smile a little and just said, you know, this is this is what I'm I'm trying my best. I'm like, I'm trying my best. I have good intentions and I think sometimes that's, like, at least gives you half the pass. But, yeah, if I get exposed, I will get back to you and I'll let you know how I handle it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:34]:
So talk to me about you talked earlier about the fact that you found within your own life that you need to have those connections with other men, other fathers, other individuals, so important for you. I don't like referencing COVID too much, just because there's, so important for you.Markus Wolf [00:11:55]:
I don't like referencing covid too much just because this feels like something you just want to put behind you. But it made me recognize that what I had in the past was like a third home. I had a place to go out and when I would personal trained before covid, I was interacting with 5, 10 people a day. And then when you go from 5, 10 to 0, you start to realize that that was something that was a requirement for you. You like being heard, you like hearing other people's stories. And then when you eliminate that, I started to replace my wife for that. So really, it was just get back that same outlets. And then then again, I I can't explain why it feels so good, but it was it was exactly what I just needed.Markus Wolf [00:12:32]:
I just need to talk to others and hear others and just get out and about.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]:
You know, I've come to find that some men are for some men, that is not an easy thing to do, to reconnect, to make those connections, to make those friendships, especially once we become adults. Don't seem to have problems usually when we're growing up. We make those connections. We have friendships. But as we get into our adulthood and we start focusing on family, profession, other things, the push for maintaining friendships, building friendships goes away. As someone that mentors others, that coaches others, why do you think that happens? And what have you done to be able to try to help other men to reconnect like you are?Markus Wolf [00:13:16]:
That's a really great point. You made me remember what it was like being with my father or being raised with my father and he had 0 friends. So I think that was already a glaring sign. And the first things that I feel like I recognize was I talk about that a lot with clients, even sometimes the very first interaction. I say to them that when we were younger, when we were men, it was 95% of our time were with other men. Locker room banter, playing video games, going outside, and you're pretty much just hanging out with men your whole entire life up until the point when you're dating the person that you're eventually gonna have children with and then get married. So for me, I personally just started to use I'm a meathead at heart, Chris, to be honest. So I just work out with men because it just seems to be a 2 birds with 1 stone type of scenario.Markus Wolf [00:14:05]:
And I think a lot of men can can connect with that. Maybe it's not working out. Maybe it's, hey. I'm gonna go join a softball team, and that might even just be enough to do the thing.Markus Wolf [00:14:14]:
No, it does. And I think that it's important to understand that. That's one of the reasons why in fathering together, we develop the online communities that we have, but we also have in person opportunities for dads to connect with other dads and be able to open up opportunities for men to be able to connect, connect with their kids, connect with each other because connection is so important. But we, as I said, sometimes forget about that and focus so much on other aspects that leads to the prevalence of loneliness. And you'll see lots of studies that are out there right now that talk about the pervasiveness of loneliness in malehood right now. And most men don't wanna talk about it, and they just wanna kind of push it down and keep pushing forward because that's what we do. We push through, right? So it's not an easy thing to deal with, but it's also important to for us to deal with because if we don't, our kids are watching and our kids will also identify and see what's happening. So one of the questions that I have, I guess, is this because you work with a lot of dads and men in the coaching that you do through fitness, through life.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:32]:
What are some of the biggest challenges that some of these men that are coming to you, working with you right now are dealing with? And are you seeing commonalities amongst them?Markus Wolf [00:15:41]:
100%. I feel like at this point, because I've worked with 100 and it's just patterns. And usually the one pattern that I'm noticing a lot is the values they have are outside of themselves. So it's never a bad thing to provide. That's one of a very important role you're supposed to do as a parent, as an adult. But I couldn't understand that because I'll admit it, I was quite selfish in my twenties, which kind of prepared me for how to, you know, be successful in fitness. But their line in what it does, it prioritizes self, it prioritizes if your energy is not where you want it to be, you prioritize it. If your stress management is not where you want it to be, you prioritize it.Markus Wolf [00:16:21]:
And most of the men I work with, and this is what I fear for my kids, is, like, they don't prioritize themselves. They prioritize appeasing work, their boss, wife. You gotta keep your wife happy, but she's in control of her own happiness. In my personal opinion, that if you're not in control of yours, that's probably a big, big issue.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:40]:
For those men that you're working with that have a hard time identifying those priorities, because sometimes men do. Sometimes they are floundering a bit and there are individuals that are listening right now that may be thinking, I just don't know where to start. Where should they start?Markus Wolf [00:16:55]:
Using that same model that I spoke about, it's usually the easiest route is the first route. So even if it's just going for a walk and listening to an audiobook you've been wanting to listen to forever, It's probably a larger sense of accomplishment to some men than you would even believe. To others, it would be that's just a typical Monday morning. I go for a walk on the beach and I listen to an audiobook or something. But for them, some of these men, they they they just keep saying that they're going to do something. And that's that action, I believe, is already enough for them to, put forward towards where they need to go. And if you're already doing that again, what is the the thing that you keep holding off at? Because that's likely the thing that's gonna push you forward.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:33]:
I appreciate you sharing that as well. Now, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Ready. In one word, what is fatherhood?Markus Wolf [00:17:43]:
It's a blessing.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:43]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Markus Wolf [00:17:47]:
I take my girls on a on a monthly date. And usually, on days where they finish school, you have to drag them out of the playground just to leave to go home. But on our monthly dates, they will run and they cannot wait to to join me. And I feel like that's they're looking forward to it. That's already a good sign.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:03]:
Now your kids are still young, so they might not have a lot of answers for this. But if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?Markus Wolf [00:18:09]:
I think they totally answer it with, I'm the fun guy who tends to yell a lot.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:14]:
Now let's go at this point maybe 15 years down the road. What do you want them to say then?Markus Wolf [00:18:19]:
As long as they could say something, that's the man I trust, That's the man I I look up to. That's the man that I am looking to get him a partner like.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:26]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Markus Wolf [00:18:27]:
Ben, 100%.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:28]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Markus Wolf [00:18:34]:
Choose your battles. If you're like me, you want like, I just told you, I I wanna add skill sets to them. I want them to have things to be better in the world, but it's not gonna happen overnight. So just sometimes let it go.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]:
And that's definitely not always easy.Markus Wolf [00:18:48]:
No. It's probably the toughest thing I've ever done in my life.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]:
Now, if people wanna find out more about you and what you're up to, where should they go?Markus Wolf [00:18:55]:
They can find me on Instagram, coach Markus Wolf, m a r k u s, Wolf, and drop a whole bunch of knowledge bombs if they want anything. And also just, again, resonance. So if you're a father and you're just looking to resonate with someone who's been holding on to healthy habits even with 2 children, just give me a call.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:10]:
Well, Markus, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing what you've learned thus far, and I wish you all the best.Markus Wolf [00:19:17]:
Appreciate you, Chris. This was a pleasure.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:19]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:17]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, we buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be. -
Fatherhood is a journey laden with challenges, triumphs, and a multitude of rewarding experiences. For some, it means rewriting the scripts handed down by previous generations and breaking stereotypes. Kevin Riley, a father of three, a Bronx councilman, author, and one of the founding members of "The Dad Gang," epitomizes this transformative journey. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, Kevin Riley shared his unique story, shedding light on his mission to redefine Black fatherhood and support other fathers in similar pursuits.
The Crucial First Steps: Overcoming Fear and Self-DoubtFear as a Driving Force
When Kevin Riley found out he was going to be a father to his first daughter, Brooke, fear struck him. Having grown up without a father, he was acutely aware of what he lacked in terms of role models and guidance. Reflecting on those initial fears, Riley shared, "I was scared but also excited because it was a journey I could pour so much value into."
His primary concern was whether he was parenting the right way. Riley's transparency about his fears dismantles the myth of the all-knowing father. It is okay to be scared, okay to doubt — what matters is the desire to overcome these fears and become the best dad possible.
Balancing Responsibilities: The Art of Time ManagementStriking a Balance in a Busy Life
Being a councilman often pulls Kevin Riley in different directions, demanding a delicate balance between public responsibilities and family life. "I bring my children everywhere," Riley explains. From community events to City Hall hearings, his children are often by his side, learning the ropes of civic engagement early on.
This unique approach serves dual purposes: it provides valuable bonding time and exposes his children to the concept of public service. Riley’s method underscores the importance of integrating children into various aspects of life, making them active participants in their father’s world.
Empowering Daughters: The Challenge and the RewardBreaking Gender Norms
Kevin Riley emphasized the importance of empowering his daughters to pursue any career they desire, irrespective of societal expectations. He makes it a point to connect his daughters with powerful female leaders to illustrate that they can achieve the same heights as their male counterparts. "In a male-dominated society, you have to find creative ways to empower your daughters," Riley says.
The lesson here is that fatherhood extends beyond basic caregiving; it’s about paving the way for your children to see themselves as capable and equal contributors to society.
Sharing the Journey: "Hop Into Life"From Personal Experience to Published Author
Riley's book, "Hopping Through Life," co-authored with his children, is a heartfelt narrative aimed at demystifying the complexities of fatherhood. The inspiration stemmed from his own experiences and his nightly ritual of reading to his kids. "Be proud of the journey you've been through because it created the person you are today," Riley advises.
The book serves as a beacon for other fathers, particularly those who may have grown up without a father figure. It’s a testament to overcoming obstacles and embracing the messy, yet beautiful, journey of parenting.
Community Building: The Dad GangChanging Stereotypes, One Dad at a Time
One of the most impactful initiatives Kevin Riley has been involved with is "The Dad Gang." Founded by Sean Williams, this organization was borne out of a single comment that stereotyped Black fathers. "We created this community online, but we really wanted to go deeper," Riley explains.
The Dad Gang hosts events like the "March of Dads," which feature public walks and community activities aimed at showcasing the active involvement of Black fathers. The group also organizes healing circles and interactive forums that provide emotional support and amplify the narratives of Black fatherhood.
Final Words: The All-Important AdviceMake Time, Always
As Kevin Riley beautifully puts it, "There's no amount of money that you can earn within your lifetime that would amount to the time you could spend with your children." For dads feeling overwhelmed or questioning their readiness due to financial constraints, Riley offers the essential advice to prioritize time with their children over everything else. His advocacy for this critical aspect of fatherhood is both inspiring and actionable.
Through his roles as a councilman, author, and community leader, Kevin Riley is not just rewriting his own narrative — he’s providing a new script for Black fatherhood, challenging stereotypes, and inspiring fathers everywhere to be the best they can be. His story serves as a powerful reminder that fatherhood, above all, is a journey of love, patience, and unwavering commitment.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC)
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads With Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I'm on this journey with you. You and I are going along this journey to be the best dads that we can be. And the thing that I love is that you show up every week to be able to learn, to grow, to hear from other fathers, hear from other people about the journeys that they've been on, and some of the resources that they've been able to either create, provide, or just the experiences that they've had that can give you some context, give you some ideas about things that you can do to be able to better engage with your daughters or just be there and just be able to be the best dad that you can be and help them in the journey that they're on as they're moving into womanhood. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that come to fatherhood just like you and I, without a lot of resources, without a lot of ideas, because there's no one right way to father. However, we can learn from each other. We can learn from so many others to be able to be that better father that we wanna be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]:
Today, we got another great guest with us today. Kevin Riley is a father of 3. He is a district 12 Bronx councilman and a soon to be published author and founding member of the dad gang. And we're gonna be talking to him about his own journey, about being a dad of 2 daughters and a son, but also some of the we'll talk about his new book. We'll talk about a little bit of a lot of things to be able to get some of his own perspectives. So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for being here today.Kevin Riley [00:02:11]:
Thank you for having me, Dr. Lewis. How are you doing today?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]:
I really appreciate you being here. And I always love starting this these interviews with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I know you've got 2 daughters. You got a 9 and a 5 year old. So I'm gonna go back. Maybe it's 10 years. Maybe it's 9 years. Never know.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]:
But I wanna go back to the very beginning. I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you're going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?Kevin Riley [00:02:36]:
I was scared. I think I was truly scared finding out that my at that time, my fiance was pregnant. She's my wife now. Pregnant with our first daughter, Brooke. Really scared because at that time, you know, I didn't grow up with a father. So as you stated before, we're trying to learn fatherhood techniques, we're trying to learn different tips, we're trying to learn different situations that may, you know, come about within our children's lives from each other. It's so important that we create these communities because at that time I didn't know. I I was really truly scared, but I did know that I wanted to be the best father possible.Kevin Riley [00:03:09]:
I know that at minimal. I knew I wanted to be the best father possible. So I would say 10 years ago, man, when I find out or 9 years ago, when I found out that Brooke was gonna be more, I was scared, but I was really excited too because it was a journey that I felt that I can, give so much back and pour so much valueDr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:24]:
back to school. You just said that you were scared. And I think a lot of dads are scared to step into fatherhood, let alone being a father to a daughter. And there's some fear that goes into that. As you've gone through these 9 years with your oldest daughter and your other kids as well, what's been your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter?Kevin Riley [00:03:46]:
I think my biggest fear, and I'm a be totally transparent with you, making sure that I'm parented the right way. There's no manual into being a father. There's no manual into being a dad. There's no right way of doing things all the time, and I think really there are times when even I'm communicating with my daughter, my daughter's trying to communicate with me or even show affection. I mean, I may be busy as you stated, I'm a I'm a New York City council member, so my job is very, very busy a lot of the times, So I won't be as available to my daughter as much as I will possibly wanna be available to her. So you kinda get that fear of, hey. Am I doing this the right way? Is my daughter going to find love outside of her father because she felt like she didn't get that male love from her father, because he wasn't there for her as much as possible. And then once I was able to kind of fight those different thoughts within myself, I was able to apply, what I wanted to be, because I think it's the fear.Kevin Riley [00:04:40]:
The fear always puts doubt within yourself. Then if you really open your eyes, I was always available at her doctor's appointments, I was always going to her shows, I was always showing up for everything for my children. It puts that doubt aside because we have fear, especially when you grow up, and like I stated, I grew up without a father. So that fear of, hey. I didn't get the blueprint. I don't know how a father is supposed to deal with this with their child. I think after I got off that fear and that doubt, I was able to be the best father that I'm actually doing a really pretty good job.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:10]:
That being a councilman, you have a busy life, and you're pulled in a lot of different directions. Being an elected person in an elected office definitely is something that puts you into the limelight in many aspects. People get to know you. And sometimes your kids don't get that in regard to being that public figure in that way. And they don't always understand that you have to be away to be able to build them the life that they are accustomed to. So talk to me about that in regards to balance because I think that so many fathers have to try to balance their work life, their or or professional life, their personal life, and trying to find what that perfect balance is to be able to show up and to be able to be in the lives of their kids the way that they wanna be. How have you been able to do that? Have you struggled with it? What have you done to be able to get better at it?Kevin Riley [00:06:10]:
Yeah. I think I touched, a little bit about that with the fear and the doubt, but then you you mentioned something balance and time management. I am a person that if you know me and the way I govern, I bring my children everywhere. So my children actually attend community events for me. My children actually attend meetings for me. I'll even bring my children to city hall at hearings sometimes because I think it's very important for them to see exactly what their father does and important for them to be civically engaged as well. I'm trying to teach civics to my children at a very, very early age. You do understand that within our country, you know, a lot of children don't get the accessibility or the access to learn about how government truly works.Kevin Riley [00:06:46]:
So I get I think my children are seeing that on a day to day basis, and they understand what their father is or what their father contributes, to their community. I do a lot of work with giving back to my community and my children realize that and they really appreciate that. So I think, time management is really important. I have a luxury of bringing my children to work. A lot of fathers don't have the luxury of bringing their children to work. But even if you don't have the luxury of bringing your children to work, I think time management is very important. Even if you take a hour, 2 hours, that's why you go we came out with this book and we're writing this book and I know we're gonna touch on that a little bit later. But just doing activity with your child, reading to your children, going out and playing with your children.Kevin Riley [00:07:26]:
We can make time. There's 24 hours in the day. There's always time that you can make to engage with your children and I realized that with time management, I may not have the opportunity to sit down and watch cartoons all day with my children. But in the morning time, when I'm getting them ready for school, engaging, communicating with them, and conversing with them, in the evening time, making sure that I shut my phone calls off at a certain period of time, and I'm able to sit down with my children, you know, watch a TV show, catch up with them, have some dinner with them, things of that nature. I think time management is crucialDr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:58]:
It truly is. For your father. Now one of the things that I wanted to go back to, you were talking about fear and raising daughters. And raising kids is not always easy. There's ups. There's downs. There's every which way. And sometimes days are good.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:11]:
Sometimes they may not be. So it can be difficult at times as well. What's been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter?Kevin Riley [00:08:18]:
I think the hardest part of being a father to a daughter is being able to empower them to do whatever they wanna do within their life. Coming from a male and my wife does an amazing job with empowering our daughters. But coming from their father as a man, they see me doing a lot of amazing dope things, and I don't want them to feel like only men can do this. I try to empower them, and I try to be equalizers to them and let them know, like, hey. As I'm doing this, there's powerful leaders out there doing this as well, so I think it's very important, especially in my field. I always try to connect my daughters to very powerful women leaders alongside with them. Their mother has a very powerful position as well, but other powerful leaders out there who are women and who are doing a lot of dope amazing things, because I want them to feel like this is not male driven. You know, their father, they see the dope things their father is doing all the time.Kevin Riley [00:09:07]:
They see their father's always on television all the time, but they also see the Bronx borough president who's the 1st black woman to hold that position. She does amazing things, and when we go to events, they're able to connect with her on real time, and they're able to talk to her, ask her questions. So I think that has been the challenge as a dad with raising daughters because I think in a male dominant society, you really try to find creative ways to empower them and let them know that they could do the same thing that you could do even though it's a male dominant.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:36]:
You mentioned that you've got a new book coming out called Popping Through Life. And I know that in that book, you are trying to really remind families that family is not just about blood relations or focusing on what it means to focusing on what we may lack in our lives. So I wanna go back to the beginning as you have created this story. As as an author myself, I know how much time, effort, passion have to go into the creation of these pieces that are being put out into the world. What made you decide that you wanted to be an author, and what made you decide that this was the topic for kids that you wanted to talk about?Kevin Riley [00:10:15]:
I've always been passionate about expressing my story to individuals. Growing up, my father and my mother migrated to America from Jamaica, and unfortunately, my father, he was incarcerated when we were younger, and I used to always visit him when he was in the criminal justice system. And that's why I thought I was actually going. So that's why when my daughter was born in 2015 and now me being a council member, you can see that was a total different change, you know, in direction in life, and I believe my father did the best that he possibly could. We have a great relationship today. You know, we stay connected as much as possible, and I really strongly feel that the storyline came from me expressing where the challenges that I grew up with, where that came through, and it's really much just hopping through life, like, getting through getting by. I feel a lot of us feel like we're just getting by through life a lot of times, and once I have my daughter in 2015 and I'm learning, then I have my other daughter in 2019, and then my son came in 2022, it's like I learned different things at with each child, and I'm hopping through this thing we call parent look. It's something that I do with my children every single night as I read to my children.Kevin Riley [00:11:22]:
Something in New York City and and throughout the nation, we're trying to promote literacy to our children, so I think it's crucially and truly important as parents that you read to your children as much as possible and have your children read back to you as much as possible. But as we were reading these stories and every time I'm reading the story, I'm always reading the author and the illustration illustrator out to the story. And my daughter said one day, like, hey, dad would love if one day we could tell our story. And when she said that, I'm like, wow. That really struck me because as a council member, I'm always verbal. I'm always giving speeches about my story, but I've never written my story down, and I wanted to write it in a sense where a father who has experienced the same things that I've experienced growing up and their their journey of fatherhood and them kind of hopping, they can actually read the story to their children so their children could actually understand as well, like, hey, your father's not perfect. Your father there wasn't a machine that was created. It was just dad.Kevin Riley [00:12:16]:
Here's a dad. Here's a mom. Your father has been through stuff. Your father has trauma in their life. Your father is healing. Your father is learning different things, and they are just getting through life the same way that you're getting through life as a child. Our child learned to crawl, then walk, then then then read, then then go to school on their own. They learn different things, and you continue to learn.Kevin Riley [00:12:36]:
Learning doesn't stop when you graduate school. Learning continues throughout life, so I think that's where the journey of the book came from. It it's about me telling my story, but also about me giving a platform for fathers who experience things like me. There's a lot of tons of fathers out there who didn't have a father figure in their life, and they're going into this journey of fatherhood. They can actually read a story to their children that could kind of outline that. And we utilize character of a bunny because bunnies are really popular with children, Bugs Bunny. Bunnies are really, really popular with children as an animal, and they're energized. Bunnies are really energized, and that's what we feel like fathers should be in their children's lives.Kevin Riley [00:13:13]:
They should be their children's Energizer Bunny. They should energize their children to make sure that they're going out and being the best of their ability. So that's where the book and the journey of the book came from, and I'm really excited that we're releasing it on September 6th on National Reader Book Day.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:27]:
So you're telling your story, and you're sharing that with the masses. What are you hoping that people are going to take from reading this for themselves and reading to their children?Kevin Riley [00:13:39]:
Be proud of the journey that you've been through because the journey that you've been through created the person that you are today, and we shouldn't always shun away from it. I know sometimes people are kind of embarrassed of their upbringing. They're embarrassed of the trauma that they experience through their life, but I think they should kind of look at the good out of that because it made them into a very resilient person. It made them into a very strong person that's able to conquer any challenges that they may embark on, you know, moving forward. And hopping through life really engages and showcases that even though you may have had trauma throughout your life, you could still be a great dad. Even though you may not had a father when you were younger, you could still be a great dad. And also to be sympathetic, you don't know what your father went through. Your father had a father.Kevin Riley [00:14:23]:
Your father's father had a father. There has been lineage of fatherhood that's been happening throughout generations, and there's no manual. I think a lot of times when we think of parents, we always circle and and focus on mothers all the time, but fathers are as important as mothers as well. I think fathers don't know that. I know in New York City, I passed a resolution that made June in New York City fatherhood recognition month because we want to recognize fathers throughout the entire month of June. But not only do that, the whole goal is to create centers for fathers. We partner with organizations like the Real Dads Network. I have an organization that I know I'm gonna we're gonna talk about soon, the dad gang, but we really want to create these fatherhood centers that provide resources for fathers to really flourish, that will help fathers find jobs, help fathers connect with their children emotionally.Kevin Riley [00:15:11]:
I think fathers, even men, we've been taught to be really, really masculine at times and not really be really comprehensive, really understand our feelings, really be emotionally connected, to our emotional feelings, so we can emotionally connect with our children and understand that. So I think that's why I want people to get from this book. I want people to really understand that, hey, even though you did have a journey that brought you to this day, you should embrace it, and you should really know that it made you into the strong, resilient person that you are in today's society.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:44]:
Now you talked about the organization that you are a part of and that you founded called Dad Gang. Talk to me about Dad Gang, why you decided to start it, what its goals are, and what you're hoping that people are going to take away from being a part of it.Kevin Riley [00:16:00]:
So when you talk about fatherhood, one negative aspect and negative stereotype about fatherhood is black fathers aren't involved in their children's lives. So when we started the Dag Gang, the Dag Gang, Sean Williams, who's the founder of the Dag Gang, who's our fraternity brother, Kappa Alpha Paternity Incorporated. He started the Dag Gang, in 2015 when he had his second daughter, and he was in the supermarket with his child, and, a white woman had said to him, I'm glad you stuck around. It's good that you stuck around. And he was really offended by that comment, but he's like, I know tons of fathers out there that are involved in their children's lives. So we first, we got together and at that time, that's when social media really started picking up. You had Instagram, you had Twitter, you had all these different platforms that people are really looking at people lives on a device. So we want to put out as much positive imagery and visions of black fatherhood.Kevin Riley [00:16:53]:
We didn't realize we are creating a community of black fathers that were coming to this page, seeing all the dope black fathers out there, connecting with those fathers because we would add put their username there, connecting with them because they were from their city and towns, and really building this market that, hey. You might have a father like I have, at that time, my daughter, at the time between 2015 and 2018, she just turned 3 at that time. I could connect with a brother who has a 10 year old. So they have a 10 year old daughter. So I know between 3 10 year old what are certain things I should be doing, certain things I should be saying, certain things I should not be doing. It creates this kinda community, so we created this community online, but we really want to go a little bit deeper. So we started to do events where we organize and mobilize in different states, and we do something called the March of Dads. So it started off with calling strolling with the homies, but we changed the name to the March of Dads because we wanted to go to landmarks in different places.Kevin Riley [00:17:46]:
So for instance, we went to in New York City, we go to Prospect. In New York City, we just did the Bronx Children's Museum. In Atlanta, we did Ponce City Market. In DC, we marched by the White House, and we wanted to go to landmarks and showcase, and you just see a whole bunch of Black fathers, fathers of color, walking together with strollers, carry ons, older children, grandfathers, fathers. You just see that image and it showcases to you that black fathers are really engaged. But not only do we do that, we host a bunch of conversations and talks. So we do healing circles where we call it the dad house, where we have fathers, just fathers, just speaking. Because sometimes we feel like there's no place for us to just speak and just express how we feel.Kevin Riley [00:18:28]:
As men, I go back to the masculinity. We're always taught that we're not supposed to show emotions. We're supposed to figure things out, just kinda go through life and just figure things out. Be tough about things, and that continues to just break us down. And then we get to a point where we break down, and that healing process is so challenging. I read a book called Battle Cry by Jason Wilson. Amazing book, where he talked about that, that we focus so much on the masculinity part about manhood, which is important, but we need to also talk about emotions and the comprehensive part about being the man as well. So the dad game, we really formulated this organization to be a a nest, a safe haven for fathers of color out there to showcase that we are present.Kevin Riley [00:19:10]:
We do tons of different other activities. We hand out strollers, diapers, things of that nature in different parts of the city and the, the nation. We're in different parts. We do stuff in LA, DC, Atlanta, where we're branching out to different parts as well, but it's really organization. Tap in. It's the dadgang.com, or you can follow us on the dad gang on any platform.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:32]:
I love the concept. I love the idea. As a global organization, it is definitely something that's needed to be able to as you kind of were talking about in the sense of redefining fatherhood and redefining black fatherhood or or the masses and to show that what the founder heard in the grocery store is not accurate and it is definitely not something that should be perpetuated. So I appreciate all the work that the organization's doing to engage dads in so many ways. There are so many opportunities for dads to be able to come together. This is one great way to be able to do that. And I encourage people to check out The Dad Gang at the dad gang.com to be able to learn more about their events, their activities, and how you can get involved as well. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]:
Are you ready? In one word, what is fatherhood?Kevin Riley [00:20:30]:
Love.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]:
When was a time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Kevin Riley [00:20:36]:
The completion of Hop Into LifeBook.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:38]:
If I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?Kevin Riley [00:20:41]:
Mister Clean.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:44]:
What about 10 years from now? What do you want them to say?Kevin Riley [00:20:46]:
My dad is my best friend.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:48]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Kevin Riley [00:20:49]:
My children.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:50]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?Kevin Riley [00:20:58]:
Make time to be with your children. There's no amount of money that you can earn within your lifetime that would amount to the amount of time you could spend with your children. I talk to a ton of people out there who are interested in becoming a father and they and they always say to me like, 'hey, I just think I'm not financially ready yet.' Yes, having a child can be very expensive, but in the same sense it's more expensive when you're not spending time with your children. Because the time that you're missing with your children is something you can never make up. So I always give the advice to every dad out there, make time to be around your children, whether if it's an hour a day, whatever the time is, just make time so you could truly just connect with them and so you can just see how dope you are and just really showcase your love that you have for them. If the Hop Into LifeBook could order it on hopindolifebook.com. It's going to be an amazing amazing series because there's gonna be some more books that's gonna come out after and I'm really really proud of my children who are co authors of this book, Brook Kate and Caleb Riley. And I would just advise you just find that activity that you could do with your kids together.Kevin Riley [00:22:03]:
It will really really make you guys closer and really make them be able to express their creative juices to you as well.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:09]:
Well, Kevin, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for doing what you're doing to be able to be active in your own kids' lives, but also what you're doing to be able to engage with other dads, to be able to push them to be that engaged father that they want to be as well. And I wish you all the best.Kevin Riley [00:22:27]:
Thank you, doctor Lewis. Thank you for having me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:28]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men. Get out and be the world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.
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On this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we spoke with Kevin Baker, a certified life coach and father of three. Known affectionately as "Coach Kevin," he offers unique insights into parenting through his personal and professional experiences. This episode delved into various aspects of fatherhood, particularly focusing on raising resilient daughters amidst challenges. Whether you're a new dad or a seasoned parent, the lessons and strategies discussed provide valuable takeaways for all.
The Initial Joy and Unexpected Challenges The Joy of FatherhoodKevin Baker's journey into fatherhood was initially marked by joy and excitement—emotions that many of us can relate to. Upon learning that he would be having a daughter, his initial thoughts mirrored those of countless new dads: excitement quickly followed by planning. From due dates to potential weather conditions, Kevin and his wife wanted to be prepared for every scenario.
Navigating Health ChallengesHowever, their plans changed dramatically when their daughter was diagnosed with Tetralogy of Fallot, a congenital heart condition. This unexpected news threw Kevin and his wife into a whirlwind of medical appointments and surgeries. Through three open-heart surgeries, they learned an invaluable lesson about the unpredictability of life: planning is essential, but flexibility and emotional resilience are paramount.
Facing Parenthood Fears Head-On Common FearsLike many fathers, Kevin faced immense fears, particularly concerning his daughter's future independence given her medical challenges. His fear extended into other areas, such as her social and emotional well-being. These fears initially overshadowed his joy but evolved over time. Kevin’s story is a testament to the fact that all parents, regardless of their child’s health, share common anxieties about their child’s future.
Overcoming FearKevin emphasized the importance of addressing these fears constructively. He learned to channel his anxiety into positive, actionable steps. "Letting go of expectations," he said, allowed him to focus on being present, loving, and patient. This mindset not only alleviated his fears but also enabled his daughter to thrive despite her challenges.
Reprogramming the Parental and Child Scripts Resetting as ParentsResetting parental expectations begins with a broad perspective on life. Kevin and his wife realized that life’s journey is long and unpredictable. They practiced zooming out to see the bigger picture, understanding that daily worries shouldn't overshadow long-term happiness and success. This perspective shift provided them with emotional stability and resilience, enabling them to navigate their daughter's health issues with greater ease.
Empowering Their DaughterFor their daughter, reprogramming her mindset involved instilling tools for self-empowerment. Kevin shared how they focused on open communication, consistent encouragement, and helping her develop critical life skills. A significant part of this was educating her about the reality of social media, debunking the myths of perfection that it often portrays. They reinforced her self-worth and capabilities, allowing her to combat negative thoughts effectively.
Coaching Tweens and Teens: A Broader Perspective Understanding Teen AngstWorking with teens and tweens, both professionally and as a father, has given Kevin unique insights into the adolescent mind. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the thoughts and feelings that teens experience daily. Many teens struggle with feelings of inadequacy, anxiety, and a lack of direction, often exacerbated by societal pressures.
Strategies for ParentsKevin’s primary advice for parents is to focus on connection and communication. Instead of pressing for immediate answers, he advises listening attentively—considering both words and body language—before responding thoughtfully. He acknowledges that parents might not always be the best confidants for their teens, suggesting the involvement of other trusted adults, like extended family members or professional coaches.
Resources and Final ThoughtsKevin's experiences and advice emphasize the importance of patience, understanding, and clear communication in parenting. One resource he recommends is Tara Brach’s book, "Radical Acceptance," which advises parents to pause and breathe before reacting. This practice empowers both parent and child to make better decisions.
Closing InsightsTo summarize, Kevin Baker’s journey offers invaluable lessons for all parents. His emphasis on patience, flexibility, and emotional resilience can guide us all in raising strong, independent children. Resources like "Radical Acceptance" and coaching can also provide valuable support as we navigate the challenges of parenthood.
For those looking to explore more about Kevin’s perspectives or seek personalized guidance, he is available through his website, lifecoachkevin.com, and various social media channels.
Fatherhood is an ever-evolving role, and by embracing lessons from leaders like Kevin Baker, we can strive to be the best dads we can be.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC)
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as we are working to be the best dads that we can be and to be able to raise those strong independent women that we all want our daughters to become. And that being said, as I've said in the past, and I'll say it again, I know it is so important that you're here today because that means that you're willing to learn, you're willing to listen, and you're willing to do what it takes to be able to get to that endpoint that you want for yourself and for your family. And to do that, you have to be willing to be open to listening, to learning, and to take it all in, and to figure out what works, and to figure out what works best for you and your family. Everything that you're gonna be hearing today may not work exactly for your family. And that's okay. Because each of us is going to father in different ways.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]:
There's not one right way to father, and there's no one playbook to follow to be able to know how best to be a father to your kids. There are so many different ways that you can do that. And what's most important though, is that you're willing to know and you're willing to learn and find some of those other tools that you can add to your own toolbox to put into place and to be able to try some of those out. Because you know what? You might learn something new about yourself and something new that you can put into place to help you be that dad that you wanna be. And that's why in every episode, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences, different dads coming from different walks of life, and as well as other experts, other people that can help you to be that father that you wanna be. And this week, we have another great guest with us. This week, we have Kevin Baker joining us or otherwise known as coach Kevin. And coach Kevin's gonna be talking with us about his own experience as a father of 3, as well as Kevin is a certified life coach who works with families and teams and helps individuals to be able to build the best version of themselves.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:26]:
We're gonna be talking about that as well. So I'm really excited to have him here. Kevin, thanks so much for joining us today.Kevin Baker [00:02:32]:
Oh, thanks for having me, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here. And I look forward to getting some insights from you too. This is great.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:37]:
I really appreciate you being here today. And one of the things that I love to do, 1st and foremost, is turn the clock back in time. And I know you've got 3 kids, 1 daughter, and 2 sons. And I wanna turn the clock all the way back. I know you've got a 14 year old daughter, so let's go back. Maybe it's 13 years, maybe it's 14 years, you never know. But talk to me about that first moment, that first reaction that you had when you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter?Kevin Baker [00:03:02]:
Oh, pure excitement and just so much joy. Overwhelming amount actually of excitement. And it quickly turned into, okay, what do I have to do next? What's the next step? What do we do? So a little bit of anxiety being a plan. We started to make arrangements, figure out this is the due date.Kevin Baker [00:03:18]:
What's it going to be like? What's the weather going to be like? Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? How are we going to do it? And so we had this great plan. And then fast forward 8 months, final checkup at the doc, they said, We're seeing something with a heart and we want to get you guys over to the hospital to check it out. And 4 days later, our daughter was born and she was diagnosed in utero with a heart condition called Tetralogy of Fallot that would require intervention at some point, which was like a total shock to us. We did not expect this. We had these plans, but what about our plans? And so we very quickly learned that it's great to have plans, but you could pretty much throw those out the window. And that has been the MO for my daughter ever since for the last 14 years. And it's been great. What a great learning experience.Kevin Baker [00:04:01]:
What a great way to what a great introduction into parenting is that it's great to have expectations and it's great to have plans, but really it's all out of your control. So don't stress too much about it when things deviate from what your perfect plan was. But fast forward 14 years, she's had 3 open heart surgeries. She had 2, her 1st year of life where they corrected the ASD and the VSD in the heart and fixed one of her valves and also fixed the bundle of tissue that was sort of in the way of things. But she just recently on May 2nd, had her 3rd open heart surgery and is fully recovered from that. And she's been swimming in the lake all summer. So it's been fantastic. And we live right outside of Boston, which is probably one of the best places in the world to have that sort of thing happen.Kevin Baker [00:04:38]:
So we're grateful and we're blessed that we've been through it. And it's been a rollercoaster of feelings, ups and downs and but we know life is a long journey and we are giving her all the tools we possibly can for her toolbox to be strong and happy and successful whatever that means to her moving forward in life. So that is the short version of becoming a parent for me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:59]:
Now, every father that I've talked to talks about fear, and your fears may be very different than some other dads, especially with some of these surgeries that your daughter has had to have in her first 14 years of life. But I'm gonna ask you the question anyways. As you entered into fatherhood, and as you've gone through these 14 years, what's been the biggest fear that you've had in raising a daughter?Kevin Baker [00:05:23]:
You know, that's a great question. The biggest fear that I've had, just because my daughter has had so many challenges I would say that she's had to overcome and she still does. She's got some communication issues, you know, some social emotional stuff happening, you know, which a lot of kiddos do. But I think my biggest fear is that she wouldn't be prepared for life outside of the house when it's time for her to be independent. And that was a fear of mine. However, it's not a fear of mine anymore. And I have been able to take all those thoughts and all those fears that I've had and let them go and sort of let go of all my expectations about what she's going to do when she gets older, who she's going to be when she grows up and just know in my heart and in my soul that we're are doing the best job that we possibly can to help this kiddo figure out who she wants to be on her own. And she's learning and she's doing great.Kevin Baker [00:06:12]:
And that all gets reinforced to us through parent teacher conferences or speaking with other adults that help out along the way to raise our family and when I'm able to let go of the fears and let go of the expectations and just know that everything's going to be okay because we have the tools to deal with it, then we're all a lot happier for it. And so, I try to not be afraid of anything because that doesn't serve anyone.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:39]:
You're not the only father that has had to have those fears and has not had a child that has had to have all of those challenges within her life and that they've had to deal with in their life. But not every father has had to also deal with those. And sometimes things can change. Things can get thrown through a loop, and you've definitely had to deal with that. I guess as I think about that and what you just said, I've got 2 questions. 1st, tell me about what you and your significant other had to do to be able to reset that mindset. I'm gonna say maybe programming. Reset the script that you had in your brain about how things were going to be versus how they were? And then, 2, how have you had to work to help your own daughter to reset her script about the way in which she had to see this for herself?Kevin Baker [00:07:34]:
The first an the answer to the first question is that, you know, we really in order to reset the script as parents, we had to zoom way out on life and realize that, you know, life is a long journey. And, you know, everybody goes through stuff day to day that gets you emotional. It gives you different thoughts that you have to work through and overcome. There's a lot of worry. The world is a busy, hectic and anxiety inducing place when you think about all the things that could happen in life. But being able to zoom out and know that, yeah, some days are really, really hard. But if you think about it the right way and you know that tomorrow's another day and it's all going to be fine and we have the tools and we have the for instance, the greatest medical professionals, some of the greatest medical professionals in the world here to help us deal with some of this stuff and know that we are smart and capable adults that can work through any problem that presents itself to us. All we have to do is breathe and reason and have the resources that we were taught to use growing up, that we're going to get through it and it's going to be okay.Kevin Baker [00:08:33]:
And yeah, there are a lot of nights where there's anxiety about what's going to happen. Is she going to be okay? Is she going to be able to play on the playground? Is she going to have restrictions? Is she going to be able to get a job one day? Is she going to be able to drive? All these things that us as parents we worry about. But really, if we just focus on being present and showing love and having patience, then we have everything we need to be the best parents we can be and taking the anxiety and the worry about the future out of it and just focus on the present and do the best we can. That's how we get by day to day. And yes, some days are hard, but we get through it. We keep our positive mindset and we get through it and you know it gets better. And once you know it the next day when you tell yourself it's all going to be fine, it actually is. And how has my daughter been able to reset? We've given her a lot of tools and she's developed a lot of tools to be able to keep up with her classmates and her peers and to be able to communicate as effectively as possible with her teachers and her other trusted adults.Kevin Baker [00:09:32]:
And we tell her that she's doing a great job and we congratulate her and we're her cheerleader and we keep an open and transparent relationship so we can communicate and try and figure out what thoughts are you having and how can we help you with whatever you're dealing with? And just to keep that open dialogue and communication and let her know that everything's going to be okay. And now that she's 14, a lot of the reset is trying to impress upon her that what some of the stuff she might see online or on social media isn't really the whole truth. And some of these folks may be just showing you the top 1%, all the good stuff that's happening in their life. And maybe you don't have the fear of missing out on that because that might not be a 100% real. So bringing that all back down to reality, is a really important aspect of keeping that reset in play.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:15]:
It is such an important thing. I've seen it in my own daughters, and I know that so many parents do, especially in those tween and teen years. And I mentioned the fact that you had a lot of opportunity over your career to be able to work with teens and tweens, to be able to really look at who they want to be, but also how they want to get there, and helping people and helping teens in that way.Kevin Baker [00:10:42]:
You know, the number one thing that I hear from kiddos all the time, and one of the things that we work through, because I think it's the most important thing to work through with them, is what is going on in their mind, and what thoughts are they having when they're put in certain situations that are causing the feelings and emotions that they're having that are causing the actions or non action that they're taking, which is leading to results that are either what they're looking for or not what they're looking for. So digging into what issue are they having? Is it an issue about friends? Is it academic performance? Is it something happened to do with anxiety? Or is it a lack of motivation? All these things that the parents see as red flags for instance, when they are, you know, spending too much time on the computer or not getting good grades or not socializing with too many friends or not finding interest in things that are happening in and around their life. And so, what we talk about right off the bat is what are the thoughts that you're having? And a lot of them are having thoughts that they're not good enough or they're never going to make it or, you know, they'll never be, you know, rich and famous or they don't know what they want to do with their life or they're wasting time or, you know, all these negative, deconstructive, limiting beliefs that they've had through inputs from parents, teachers and you know, there's a saying, it's parents, teachers, and preachers that really influence the belief systems that we have and parents influence their kiddos with beliefs without even knowing that they're actually programming the mind of their child. So digging into really what are those beliefs? What are those thoughts you're having? And why are you having that thought that you're not good enough? And how did that come to be? And then dissecting it. And then giving them an opposite, more empowering, constructive thought like actually, you know, with practice, I will be good enough and I could actually be one of the best or I am going to make it. You know, with hard work and persistence, I am going to make it and I'm going to be one of the best. And give them that mindset that when they have one of those negative thoughts and they have a thought that they know is not a fact to analyze that, and they come up with a new thought that empowers them. And when they have the ability to change that, to recognize that they are not their thoughts and the thoughts are just an internal narrative that's happening, everybody has it.Kevin Baker [00:12:53]:
It's a voice in their head and everybody has it, but when you can control it so that it tells you so that it doesn't hold you back and it actually pushes you forward so you can get through whatever's holding you back without talking yourself out of it, that's where we want to be with the kiddos. You know, we want to give them the ability to empower themselves when a situation arises so that when they start to feel negative or they have an experience and, you know, they think they're not good enough, that they tell themselves like, hold up, you are good enough, you got this, Just do it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]:
And one of the things that can get really challenging in those teen and tween years is that your your children are going to are going through this transition, are going through this transition that all of us went through as kids, where they begin to test the waters even more and test the values and the family mores that have been put into place and that they've been growing up with to try to identify who do they, who are they, who do they wanna be, who are they, to try to identify who they are and who they want to be. And that can be really challenging for parents in many different ways. So I guess I'd love to have you talk to me a little bit about the work that you've done with tweens and teens. And as you're working with them as individuals from their perspective, what are you hearing from them? What are some of the things that they're saying to you? And I know you're trying to work with the parents as well because sometimes parents just don't understand as they're trying to parent these kids through what they're going through. So are there things that they can do to be able to reconnect and be able to understand their kids in a different way?Kevin Baker [00:14:28]:
Well, that's a great question, and and it's it's almost a trick question because when you're a parent asking those questions and trying to understand your kiddo, they don't always respond, and it doesn't work. Parents, it doesn't work when you're trying to do that with your kiddo. That's why it takes a village, and you need to have other trusted people in your circle that can work with you and your kiddo to get to the bottom of it because they're not gonna be as open with you no matter what. You could be the you could have the closest relationship. Like this kind of stuff doesn't work with my kids. It works great with everybody else's but, you know, there's a thing. We have a limit on what we can do. So and it's just because they see us 20 hours a day or whatever it is.Kevin Baker [00:15:07]:
You know, it's because we're there. We have all these other roles and responsibilities that sometimes prevents us from cracking the code with our own kiddos. But I would say that letting your kiddo know that, Hey, I'm here for you if you need anything, like if you want to talk. And really the first thing to do is connect. Like find the one thing that you can do to really connect with your child because it might be sitting down and watching them play a video game and asking them questions about it and then see what conversation comes from that. But showing them that you're there and you care, and then making that judgment as a parent, it's like, Is there something going on? And what can we do to help you get through some of this stuff? And they might have an aunt or uncle that they respect that's not the parent that can come in and open them up a little bit and get into that conversation. Or before you go to therapy, I always say triage with coaching because, you know, a lot of the stuff can be talked through. And when we focus on the positive with coaching, sometimes people don't need to go to therapy.Kevin Baker [00:16:08]:
Sometimes they do need to go to therapy. But parents start with connection and communicating and letting them know that you're there and you care is the number one thing.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:15]:
So listening to what you just said, one question that still comes to my mind is if your child is having those thoughts, if you're noticing it, where's the best place to start in having these conversations with them, to engage with them, and to try to help them understanding that we may not understand completely what's going on as well? Doctor. Robert WhitfieldKevin Baker [00:16:33]:
(zero forty five:fifty four): And people change along the way. Parents change along the way. I've had 3 kids, and I think that they each have sort of had a different version of me as their father, as I've become a better dad or not, depending on which kid you ask. But we learn, and we get new tools, And I have become a better father. Over the 14 years, you know, you learn as you go, and the kiddos change drastically.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:53]:
I love that concept because I think that sometimes parents get themselves into a situation where they're racking their brains, and they're trying to figure out how can I connect with them better? How can I do something to be able to reconnect? And it doesn't always happen. Now, I am making a generalization because every child is different. And as you inevitably probably either have heard or will hear, older people are always saying to newer parents, oh, you know, just wait until those teenage years. Well, the teenage years are not always going to be challenging. They may be, but they're not always going to be. So you have to realize that every child is different. And when you have multiple kids, each of your children may be different when it comes to how they go through their tween and teenage year experiences for themselves. So as you're going through this with your kids and you're realizing that each of your children are going to be different, sometimes you have kids that are going through this at the same time, and you have to have a different approach.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:53]:
And you have to have a different approach to working with your children. It's not always a rinse, wash, and repeat. What do you say to parents when it comes to parenting multiple tween or teens during the same period? Because we know that each of them are not going to be able to go through the same process together.Kevin Baker [00:18:12]:
Yeah. I think it's important to know that all kids are different. And, yes, they all come from you, but they are all very, very much different. And they all have their own vision. They all have their own vision, their own subconscious, and, and they all need to be treated similarly, but they're all gonna have different needs. And so trying to identify, I guess, what each kiddo needs that's different from one another is something you have to really be aware of. And that comes from listening. And when your child's talking to you, not racking your brain, thinking about what you're gonna say back to them, but to actually just listen, like to all the words and how they're saying it and what their body language is telling you while they say it.Kevin Baker [00:18:52]:
And then take all that information in and determine what your response is going to be. And to not react right away, but to give it time and pause and let everything they're saying go through the emotional part of processing and give it a minute and then reply with a reasoned response is the best way to try and figure out who each one of your kiddos is individually. And then let them know that they have such special characteristics and, you know, they have this unique identifier that is them and their personality and what you love about it to help foster that sense of individuality and to build up their self confidence and their self esteem and their self-concept because they all need to have, they all need to know their important qualities and their characteristics and their values. Like you might have a kiddo who's very sensitive and empathetic and caring and loving and really cherishes family and friendships. And you might have another kiddo who is a little bit, I don't know, more outgoing. Maybe they're a jokester. You know, maybe they are the life of the party. You know, maybe they were always the ones doing magic tricks growing up, trying to be the center of attention.Kevin Baker [00:20:00]:
You know, so all kids are different, and they all have their different qualities in trying to foster that so that your kiddos grow up with their own sense of self-concept which will carry them through life. And that's the thing that on the hard days when they get faced with an issue with friends or something academically that they can say like, You know what? I'm really smart and I can do this. Or, I am super friendly and no matter what that person says, like, I know I'm me and I am a great person and I can do this and I can make these friends or whatever the case may be, but giving them that sense of self.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:30]:
Now, I know that you've worked with a lot of not only tweens and teens but also parents. And as you work with these individuals, are there any resources that you encourage parents or fathers to refer to as they're going through this period of time with their teen and tweens?Kevin Baker [00:20:45]:
I mean, there are some great podcasts out there, this being one of them. There's so many different resources for parents to dig in and to really spend time paying attention to. I think one of the authors that I think is really hitting the nail on the head is her name is Tara Brach. Tara Brach wrote and really the essence of it is to when you are faced with a situation with your kiddo and you don't know what to do, and maybe you're having an argument, maybe you want them to do some chores that they are procrastinating on. Maybe there's something you need them to do that they're not doing it and you're about to get really with them, but to pause and breathe. The book is called Radical Acceptance. And in essence, it is, you know, accept that your kiddo is their own person and they know the right answers in their subconscious. They know what to do and they want to please their parents.Kevin Baker [00:21:36]:
And if we pause and we breathe and we give them a chance to do that without intervening, kids will make the right decisions. And to be able to practice that and then actually see it happen, like right before you knock on your kiddo's door, after you've asked them to come down for dinner half a dozen times and they're still up there playing Fortnite or whatever it is, just walk away and don't nag them anymore and let them make the decision and let them make the choice and have the consequence because it's all a learning experience. And reading that book, Radical Acceptance, was a game changer for me in parenting and I'm happy to share that resource with whoever's interested.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:10]:
Now, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Kevin Baker [00:22:18]:
Yep. Ready.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:18]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?Kevin Baker [00:22:20]:
Patience.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:21]:
When was the time that you finally felt that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Kevin Baker [00:22:25]:
When she made the honor roll.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]:
Now, if I was to talk to your 3 kids, how would they describe you as a dad?Kevin Baker [00:22:30]:
Maybe cringey. A little bit cringe. It's a new term that when I tell my dad jokes, they don't sometimes they don't find them funny, they find them cringey. But I'd say fun, most of the time.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:38]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Kevin Baker [00:22:40]:
Let's say my father.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:41]:
Now, you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that every dad can think about. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Kevin Baker [00:22:47]:
I would say breathe. Breathe. When it gets tough, just breathe and let the emotion pass because emotions change. You might have an emotion of anger or being overwhelmed or being anxious about a certain situation your kid may or may not be faced with. But I think breathing is the most important thing we can do.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:03]:
Well, Kevin, I just wanna say thank you for helping teens and tweens, and thank you for being here today for sharing your wisdom on working with those teens and tweens, and for telling us more about your experience as a father. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?Kevin Baker [00:23:17]:
Sure. They can go to life coach Kevin.com. So on Instagram at life coach Kevin and on Facebook at teen life coach. Happy to have consultation calls with anyone that's seen some red flags. If you're frustrated or confused with what's going on with your kiddo, feel free to sign up for a call, and we can chat through it and see if working together might be the right fit.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]:
I really appreciate you being here today, and I wish you all the best.Kevin Baker [00:23:37]:
Same here, Chris. Thanks a lot.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:38]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men, get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.
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This week on the Dads with Daughters podcast, we had the pleasure of sitting down with Efrem Martin, a dedicated father of four daughters and a passionate advocate for intentional fatherhood. In this engaging discussion, Efrem shared his personal journey, the unique challenges he faced, and his inspiration behind writing his book, "Daddy's Girl's: A Father's How-to in Building Lifelong Relationships with our Daughter's," and starting the Girl Dad YouTube channel. Here are some profound insights from their conversation.
The Beginning of Efrem Martin's Fatherhood JourneyOne of the key moments in Efrem's life was discovering that he would become a father to a daughter for the first time. Reflecting on that time, Efrem admitted to feeling a mix of nervousness and excitement. As a young man of 23 and a Marine transitioning into civilian life, he was embarking on a monumental chapter in his life.
Despite some initial fears, Efrem expressed a unique perspective: he always wanted daughters because he believed they would make him a better man. He credited his upbringing, particularly being raised by a nurturing mother in a single-parent household after the tragic loss of his father, with preparing him for this role. He drew strength and inspiration from his mother’s unwavering support and the exemplary male figures—his uncles, cousins, and coaches—who stepped in to mentor him.
Overcoming Adversity and Becoming a Role ModelEfrem's father was murdered when Efrem was only two years old, fundamentally shaping his upbringing. Though he grew up without a father, Efrem found guidance in other male role models, like his coaches, who treated him like their own son. These experiences instilled in him the importance of having strong, positive male influences and reinforced his commitment to being an involved and supportive dad.
Having worked for 20 years in the criminal justice system and 10 years in K-12 education, Efrem witnessed firsthand the detrimental effects of the criminal justice system on children and families. This professional backdrop fueled his determination to ensure his daughters stayed out of the system and thrived in a safe, nurturing environment.
Efrem Martin's Philosophy: Raising Free ThinkersEfrem's approach to fatherhood extends beyond mere presence; it is about fostering independence and critical thinking in his daughters. He emphasized the importance of raising his girls to be free thinkers rather than focusing solely on independence. By encouraging them to challenge the world around them and question everything, Efrem prepared his daughters to navigate life with self-awareness and confidence.
This philosophy is encapsulated in his self-published book, "Daddy's Girls," where he outlines the stages of development from birth to adulthood. Additionally, his Grow Dat YouTube channel serves as a platform to further elaborate on these concepts, providing fathers with data-driven insights, visual aids, and practical guidance on raising daughters.
The Grow Dat YouTube Channel: Fostering a Community of LearningLaunched in July 2023, Efrem's Grow Dat YouTube channel is a treasure trove of wisdom and support for fathers. With over 55 livestreams covering diverse topics, Efrem draws from his extensive experience and professional background to offer valuable content. His goal is not to amass a large following but to attract the right audience—fathers genuinely seeking to improve their parenting skills.
Unlike other platforms, Efrem’s channel delves into deeper, more complex issues of fatherhood, leveraging his knowledge in criminal justice and education to provide context and solutions. His dedication to building this community organically reflects his commitment to authenticity and meaningful engagement.
Looking Ahead: A Vision for Greater EngagementEfrem has ambitious plans for the future of Grow Dat. Starting in 2025, he aims to transform the channel into a more interactive space, featuring one-on-one engagements with fathers. He believes that real-time conversations and shared experiences can enrich the learning process for everyone involved. By fostering a supportive network of dads, Efrem hopes to create a space where fathers can share their struggles, triumphs, and insights in raising daughters.
Conclusion: Consistency as the CornerstoneTowards the end of the podcast, Efrem shared his core advice for fathers: be consistent. Consistency, he believes, is the foundation of effective parenting. It provides daughters with a sense of security, allowing them to grow into confident, independent, and thoughtful individuals.
Efrem Martin’s journey and insights remind us that fatherhood is a profound and ongoing adventure. Through his book, his YouTube channel, and his unwavering dedication, Efrem continues to inspire fathers to embrace their roles with commitment, compassion, and a desire for continuous growth.
For more about Efrem Martin, his book "Daddy's Girls," and the Grow Dat YouTube channel, visit his channels and social media as outlined in the podcast episode. Remember, as fathers, we have the power to shape the next generation, one loving, consistent day at a time.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC_
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to help you be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, an opportunity to be able to talk every week and be able to work through what it means to be a dad to a daughter. And the biggest thing that I keep telling you over and over again is that being a father to a daughter is not always going to be the easiest, but you don't have to do this alone. And that's the thing that is most important is that you show up every week. You show up not only for your daughters, but show up for this. And you and you can hear from other dads, other people that have resources and things that you can do day in, day out to be that engaged dad that you wanna be. That's why this podcast exists.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:09]:
It exists to help you to be able to be the dad you wanna be and help you raise those strong, independent women that you want your daughters to be. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Efrem Martin is with us today, and Efrem is a father of 4 girls and owner of the Girl Dad YouTube Channel. And we're going to talk about his own journey in being a dad, but also some things that he's doing to be able to help dads just like you to be those girl dads that they want to be as well. So I'm really excited to have him with us today. Efrem, thanks so much for being here today.Efrem Martin [00:01:41]:
Thank you for having me, sir. Appreciate you. Appreciate you.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:44]:
Well, I really appreciate you being here today. And the first and and and first and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. I wanna go all the way back. I know your oldest is 36, so I wanna go all the way back. It might be 36 years, might be 35 years, but we're gonna go all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?Efrem Martin [00:02:05]:
It was crazy. Nervous, excited, just all the above. And baby girls, they change your world. They change your life. So it was, I was young, 23. So very excited, though. Very excited.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:17]:
Now I talk to a lot of dads, and a lot of dads step into fatherhood and they're a little scared. Not only being scared of being a father, but when you put on that extra layer of being a father to a daughter, there's some additional fear. What would you say was your biggest fear in raising daughters?Efrem Martin [00:02:35]:
I think for me, just getting out of the marine corps, I was, you know, I was in the United States Marine Corps and, transitioning out and just being young, just getting my life in order, just planning and trying to understand exactly the direction I was gonna go, getting into school, making sure I got my bachelor's degree, and just planning out my life more than anything else. So that in itself was nervous for me, but I knew I was gonna be a good dad. I wasn't so much worried about that. It was just, it was exciting more than anything else. And, just looking forward to the, challenge because I actually if you believe me or not, I actually wanted daughters because I knew that they would make me a better man.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:16]:
So when you say that you knew that being a father to a daughter would make you a better man, talk to me about that. What was it about being a father to a daughter that made you feel that way?Efrem Martin [00:03:27]:
Being raised, I came from a single parent household because my father was murdered when I was 2. Okay? So being raised without a father myself and having this incredible mother, My mother was the most nurturing, incredible woman. So getting everything from her, she couldn't teach me how to be a man, but she was just such a nurturer, and she was very attentive. So I got a lot of great qualities from her. And like I said, I didn't have my my father, but I always had my uncles. I had my first cousins. I had my brothers. So I always had good men in my life.Efrem Martin [00:04:00]:
I've never been taken advantage of as I was never taken advantage of as a child, as a kid, and my community embraced me as a as a child. So I always had good men in my life. And all the men in my life, even though I didn't have a father, they were all married. So they had their own children. And that was my experience. I wasn't exposed to a lot of single parents in my life. So not having a father, I didn't really know what to expect because I didn't have a man to guide me, but I knew that I had it in me to be this good father to a baby girl. And like I said, having my mother, I've been around my aunts my whole life, my sisters.Efrem Martin [00:04:37]:
I I'm the youngest of of of 5. So being the baby, my sisters will tell you I got over, but I don't think so. I just think I was smarter because my mom was tired by the time she got to me. But I was a good kid, so I never gave my mom any any problems. I was an athlete my entire life. And so I don't think you're ever ready, but coming out of the marine corps, I had a lot more focus. I was very well disciplined, and I wasn't really, really concerned. I was I was looking forward to the journey more than anything else.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:05]:
So talk to me about the fact that you just mentioned with your father getting murdered at such an young age for you and not having a father in that way in your life. You had other male role models, other people in your life. How did that impact you as you grew up and moved into fatherhood to be able to be the dad that you wanted to be even though you didn't have that father figure per se in your life?Efrem Martin [00:05:32]:
Okay. So for me, because I was an athlete, I played sports year round. So all my coaches, they were married, and they had their own children. So I had good men in my life that I was able to watch how they interacted with their children. And that was major for me. It was, it impacted my life because I was just one of very few boys that didn't have a father. Everyone else around me had their dads. People ask me, do you think you lost out on anything? Absolutely.Efrem Martin [00:05:58]:
I think I lost out on a lot, but I never focused on that because I was so busy. And like I said, the men that I had access to, a Latino man in my life, a white man in my life, and I had these men in my life. I didn't have a lot of well, the black men I had in my life, they were my uncles. I grew up in a community back in the seventies. It was the Chicano community, so they were all Latin men, Latinos. So all my coaches, they were either Latino or white men, but they were good men. So as a kid, that's what I focused on, and they were just good to me. And they treated me like their own.Efrem Martin [00:06:31]:
So I think what I came to understand as I got older was that you need good men in your life. And as long as you have good men in your life, you're pretty much capable of everything.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:42]:
Now raising kids is not always easy. There are definite positive times and hard times as well. As you look back at the years of raising your daughters into the women that they've become today, what was the hardest part in being a father to a daughter?Efrem Martin [00:06:59]:
You know, I have a totally different skill set because I worked in the criminal justice system for 20 years, and then I worked in k 12 education for 10 years. So I worked with children for 30 years. So my difficulty was making sure that they didn't end up in the criminal justice system, and I had examples on what not to do. So I was able to maneuver a lot differently. I didn't have a lot of the challenges, I believe, that a lot of fathers were going to experience because being a state juvenile probation officer and working with these these children that were adjudicated and just seeing families get messed over by the criminal justice system, I just knew this was not gonna be my children. So I learned early in my career that I have to have hope and I have to believe that if something was to happen to me, that there's going to be good adults out there that would step in and make sure that my daughters were taken care of like I was taking care of these children. So I wasn't really I just had a different sense of urgency, and the criminal justice system just it's not good for kids. So that kept me that kept me focused because what I was dealing with every day as a state juvenile probation officer and just seeing how kids got messed over, not my daughters.Efrem Martin [00:08:14]:
There's no way. And I wasn't going to invite the government into my life. I was not ever going to allow the government to have a say in the rearing of my children because when you do that, the more the government gets involved, the more say they have, the more adults that are involved. Your voice isn't heard as a parent. So my YouTube channel, Grow Dat YouTube channel, what I do is with my live streams and my videos is is I go a lot deeper, and I'm able to explain, I believe, all the stages of development. My book Daddy's Girls, I cover 3 stages of development, birth to 10 years of age, 11 to 13, and 14 to 18. And I explain in my book the sense of urgency that fathers need to have in order to build long term sustainable relationships with their daughters, with their baby girls. So this is my way of giving back.Efrem Martin [00:09:04]:
All my daughters are adults. They're out of the house, and I just wanna see all fathers do well with their children regardless of their ethnic group background and or culture. So this is why I decided to launch my YouTube channel.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:19]:
So let's talk about what you are creating, what you have created, the book that you've put out there. As an author myself, I know there's a lot of passion that has to go into being able to get through the writing of a book. And you mentioned the self published book that you put out there, Daddy's Girls, that's now available on Amazon that that you've written. Talk to me about the inception of that and what made you decide that you wanted to put the time, the effort, the passion into writing it, but also trying to get it out into the world for others to read and to learn from and grow from.Efrem Martin [00:09:50]:
So I already knew when when my youngest daughter, Cheyenne, got to high school in 2014, it was just her I had her and my daughter, Zuri. They were the last 2. And Zuri was gonna be graduating in 2016. Cheyenne was going to be graduating in 2018. I decided in 2014, once Cheyenne graduates, I was going to write my book. I wanted to get them through all the stages so I could have a little bit more substance in my explanation. Having the background that I have working in the criminal justice system in K-twelve education, I was a teacher, restorative justice coordinator, and dean of students. So having the background of working on the back end of the criminal justice system and the front end of k 12 education, I just believe I could I would be able to explain to fathers what's coming.Efrem Martin [00:10:35]:
I don't tell fathers how to raise their children, their baby girls. What I explain to fathers is this is what's coming. And I believe that I could lay a framework of understanding so they have a better understanding of what's coming with their daughters. Daughters are very, very complex, as you know. You have a daughter. You have daughters. Daughters are very complex because they're going to have emotional highs and emotional lows. And understanding the different stages of development, I wish I had somebody like me when I was raising my daughters because it would have helped explain a lot of different things.Efrem Martin [00:11:08]:
YouTube was it came to the forefront around 2,005. So by 2010, my girls were pretty much they were not grown girls, but they were well on their way. The book itself is very complimentary of my YouTube channel, of my live streams, and my videos. And like I said, I just believe that I'm able to go a lot deeper. There are other YouTube channels that are out there that are that are dealing with fathers of daughters. Most of them are normally dealing with daughters under 10 years of age, and they're amazing. I get to go a lot deeper, I believe, because of my professional experience as well as my experience as a father and living it every day. And all my girls are grown, and they're amazing women.Efrem Martin [00:11:55]:
So I'm able to explain, I believe, a lot of things for fathers and save them a lot of steps. And I just look forward to the engagement because I'm very interested where fathers are at at the different stages and how I can help them.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:07]:
So you went from having this book to, as you were talking about, creating this YouTube page to, again, try to get some of your messaging out. What kind of response have you been getting to not only the book, but the YouTube channel and trying to and what are you trying to mostly share, and what are you hoping that people are gonna take away from reading the book or watching your videos that you're putting out into the world?Efrem Martin [00:12:29]:
Well, I'm big on engagement, and the purpose of my YouTube channel is to get engagement because I know fathers are busy. I believe that my engagement has been well. I the book is doing well, and the YouTube channel, I'm building it organically. Now I could go a whole different direction with my YouTube channel and have 10,000 subscribers or 20,000 subscribers. I'm not interested in having a lot of subscribers. I'm interested in having the right subscribers. And YouTube is very YouTube I'm learning a lot from YouTube. It's very interesting, the dynamics of YouTube, the space of YouTube.Efrem Martin [00:13:05]:
So I'm learning a lot from YouTube. And my overall goal, like I said, is to help fathers understand our sense of urgency. So I believe the engagement has been amazing. I don't get a lot of comments because I think fathers there's a lot of fathers. I just think they're nervous. And we're men. Right? And a lot of men, we're just not sure. And so this great content I'm putting out, it's in the hands of fathers.Efrem Martin [00:13:28]:
I'm going to eventually get my audience. It's coming. And I just I'm ready. To date, I've done 55 livestreams since, July of 2023, so I'm I'm consistent. And in 2025, I'm gonna change things up a little bit. I wanna have more of an engagement type channel. So it's going in stages, but I'm happy that I'm able to do a livestream every week, use data statistics, use visual aids videos, and share. So the fathers that come across my YouTube channel, I can help them, and they'll eventually we're we're gonna eventually connect.Efrem Martin [00:14:02]:
Right now, I have about 802 subscribers. So like I said, building organically, I won't do it any other way. Oh, so as a author, self published. I self published my book in February of 2020, and then the pandemic happened in March. So for 2 years, there wasn't anything I could do. And I I really even though my book was out there, I really just wanted to take this opportunity and just wait until the pandemic was over because the pandemic just it changed the world. And although my book was brand new, I didn't really wanna bother fathers because the world was just dealing with too much. So I figured, you know what? Let me wait.Efrem Martin [00:14:43]:
It took a couple years, so I figured, hey, July of 2023, let me start this YouTube channel. My book's already self published. It's out there. It's time. So I was excited about that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:53]:
So you said that you're changing things up in 2025 and or 2024, 2025. Talk to me about what's next. What's changing? You know, where are you going from here?Efrem Martin [00:15:04]:
So when you look at my videos now, what I typically do is I give commentary on my experience, and I connect videos with the topics. I have 55 livestreams, 55 different topics, which is very difficult to do, very difficult to do. So I rely a lot on my experience as a as a state juvenile probation officer and working in k twelve education. That's where I draw a lot of my topics as far as being able to go deeper. And visual aids, I know fathers, they have a lot of questions. They have a lot of concerns. But I believe that the visual aids will help them. And YouTube has everything.Efrem Martin [00:15:40]:
If you can't find it on YouTube, you can't find it. So that's where I'm currently at. And and what I wanna transition into in 2025 is having more of a 1 on 1 like you and I are having right now. That's what I'm interested in. I want more engagement from from different fathers. I I wanna I wanna hear their feedback. I wanna I wanna hear their how they're thinking, how they're feeling. Because there's a lot of fathers out there that have a lot of great ideas, and and I think that they could bring a lot to the table as as far as their own personal experiences of of fathers because we're all at different stages in our lives.Efrem Martin [00:16:11]:
Like I said, all my daughters are adults, so I no longer have them at home. So I'm at a totally different stage, and I just believe that that type of engagement on screen, I just think that it it it'll take it to a whole different level. And that's what I'm excited about that. But like I said, I've been building my capacity, and I think I'm doing well.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:29]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Sure. Absolutely. In one word, what is fatherhood? Consistency. When was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Efrem Martin [00:16:44]:
Once they all graduated from high school.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:46]:
Now if I were to talk to your girls, how would they describe you as a dad?Efrem Martin [00:16:50]:
My girls, what how would they describe me? Totally laid back. They'll tell you I'm the best father in the world. Great listener, consistent, understanding, passionate, attentive, just a great human being.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?Efrem Martin [00:17:04]:
My inspiration comes from other fathers, actually, and just seeing how they're doing things with their baby girls. Because like I said, my experience is my experience. So I'm always looking at other fathers and how how they're moving and how they're maneuvering in the world and getting it done. That that excites me because it I'm gen x. Right? So millennials and and Gen z, they do things totally different. So that excites me. I'm interested in that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:29]:
Now you've given a number of pieces of advice today. You've talked about some of the experiences that you had in raising your daughters. As you think about all dads that are out there and as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Efrem Martin [00:17:43]:
One piece of advice I would give to fathers, this is my first statement that you ask me, consistency. As long as you're consistent, your baby girls are gonna be fine. It's the consistency that I believe that allows us to provide that protection and safety and allows our daughters to grow. When we talk about the independence of our daughters, I didn't raise my daughters to be independent. I raised my daughters to be free thinkers. And the reason I did that was because I wanted them to challenge the world and have an open enough mind to be able to question everything. So I took a different path. I raised them to be free thinkers.Efrem Martin [00:18:20]:
They are definitely free thinkers, just like their father, which I believe allows them to embrace all of humanity.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:26]:
Now, if people want to find out more about you, your book, your where's the best place for them to go to be able to find out more?Efrem Martin [00:18:33]:
Definitely. You can find my YouTube channel at Girl Dad YouTube channel. It's on YouTube. I'm also on rubo.rumbo.com.martineframb, that's myrumbo.com. My book is available at amazon.com. You can get that directly through Amazon dotcom. Also, it's, available through my YouTube channel. It's always in it's in the description on of each of my, live streams and my videos.Efrem Martin [00:19:00]:
So that's the best way to get a hold of me. I'm on Facebook. I'm on TikTok. I'm on Instagram. I'm on Twitter. So I use technology to my advantage. I've always been on the forefront of technology. I love technology.Efrem Martin [00:19:14]:
I love young people and and seeing how they move with technology. So I'm on the forefront of technology. So that's how you can find me. But my YouTube channel, I'm very proud of it. Grow Dad YouTube channel.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:27]:
Well, I just wanna say thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your story, for work that you're doing to help other dads, and I truly wish you all the best.Efrem Martin [00:19:36]:
No. I appreciate you. And eventually, I'm going to bring you on to my YouTube channel because I think it would be good. And like I said, I appreciate connecting with you. So thank you for your time, sir. Appreciate you.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:48]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Blast calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be.
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In this week's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Ryan Senters, a dedicated father of two biological children and nine adopted kids, who also runs a nonprofit, called Ohana, providing housing and support for foster children. We discussed the joys and fears of fatherhood, the challenges of raising daughters, and the importance of being intentional in parenting.
The First Steps of Fatherhood Finding Out You're Going to Be a DadRecalling the moment he found out he was going to be a father to his first daughter, Brooklyn, Ryan Senters felt a wave of excitement and a profound sense of responsibility. He and his wife had been trying to conceive for two years, making the news even more special. Ryan described feeling the urgency to "get this right," a sentiment many new fathers can relate to.
"When we found out that I was gonna have our daughter, Brooklyn, just yeah. Sure excitement and a sense of, like, probably responsibility of, like, oh, jeez. I gotta take this serious here. I gotta make sure that I do this right." — Dr. Ryan Senters
Overcoming FearsMany fathers admit to feeling a unique set of fears when they learn they're expecting a daughter. Ryan was no different, expressing anxiety about being present and doing everything "right," especially since he lacked a paternal role model growing up. He noted the irrationality of some of these fears but acknowledged how they shaped his approach to fatherhood.
"I was just worried that I needed to make sure that I know it's not a right way, but in my head, I was very thick. I had this fixed mindset. I would needed to get this right." — Dr. Ryan Senters
The Challenges of Raising Daughters Being a Role ModelOne of Ryan's significant concerns was modeling the kind of man he wanted his daughters to value in their future. He emphasized the importance of being intentionally present, not just for his daughters but also for his wife, to set a positive example. His daughters, one biological and one adopted, keep looking to him for wisdom and guidance.
"They deserve to be independent and helping them develop self-confidence. They need to have a dad in their corner that's cheering them on and an example to what it means to have a man in their life." — Dr. Ryan Senters
Balancing Life and ResponsibilitiesAs a busy professional and father of many, Ryan discussed the concept of balance. He highlighted the seasonality of responsibilities and stressed the importance of mental reset techniques, like the photo in his garage that reminds him of his primary job when entering his home. Ryan advocates for being an "intentional father" rather than just a "present" one, incorporating activities like tech-free Sundays to foster family bonds.
The Adoption Journey Deciding to AdoptRyan and his wife always felt a calling towards fostering and adopting children. They opened their home to numerous children over 15 years, offering them a loving and stable environment. Ryan shared touching stories about his adopted children, like his daughter Pima, who struggled with her past but found strength and identity within their family.
"We have this mantra in our family: you are strong, you are brave, and you are kind. And so when she gets that, you are so strong... That's a big moment for us." — Dr. Ryan Senters
Expanding the FamilyThe decision to adopt more children came with challenges. Ryan recalled selling their home to move into a larger space that could accommodate five more children, a testament to their dedication and love. Their nonprofit, Ohana, named after a meaningful family quote, strives to find forever families for kids in need, embodying the belief that every child deserves a family.
"Ohana means family and family means no one's left behind or forgotten. And it was so significant for our family." — Dr. Ryan Senters
Building a Legacy: OhanaRyan also spoke about his nonprofit organization, Ohana, which provides crucial support, housing, and family connections for foster children. His work not only benefits his family but extends to helping other families navigate the complexities of fostering and adoption.
"Our belief is that every child deserves a family. Our belief is that a kid's past story doesn't define them. And what we have learned is that if a family is consistent and present, any child's past hurts can be healed." — Dr. Ryan Senters
ConclusionRyan Senters' journey is a testament to the power of intentional fatherhood and the impact a loving, supportive family can have on a child's life. His story encourages all dads to step up, be present, and be intentional in their parenting, whether with biological or adopted children. For more insights and stories like Ryan's, check out the Dads with Daughters podcast and consider diving into additional resources available at fatheringtogether.org.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC)
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you because you and I are on a journey together. I've got 2 daughters, you've got daughters. We are working through this trying to figure it out as we go along. None of us have all the answers. So it's important to be able to learn from other people and be open to learning from other people. And that's why this show is here.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]:
This show is here to be able to provide you resources, provide you opportunities to, to hear from other dads, other people with different experiences that can help you to be the dad that you wanna be and help you to raise your daughters to be those strong independent women that you want them to be as well. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Ryan Centers is with us today, and Ryan is a father of 2 biological kids, 9 adopted kids, but he also runs a nonprofit that has been able to provide housing and support for more than 500 foster children. He's a busy guy, And I am really excited to have him here to learn more from him and his journey and to introduce him to you. Ryan, thanks so much for being here today.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:01:35]:
Yeah. Thanks for having me on.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:36]:
It is my pleasure. And I love being able to learn from other dads. And, one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. So I wanna go all the way back to your first biological daughter, that daughter that that made you a father. But I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:01:56]:
My wife and I were trying to get pregnant for a lot probably 2 years. So probably it was just more excitement than anything else. We really didn't have any expectation, boy or girl, but when we found out that I was gonna have our daughter, Brooklyn, just yeah. Sure excitement and a sense of, like, probably responsibility of, like, oh, jeez. I gotta take this serious here. I gotta make sure that I do this right.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]:
Oh, and I don't know that there is one right way to do it. There isn't one right way to do it. So a lot of dads say, I've got to get this right. I got to do it right. There's got to be a right way to do it. And I keep saying, no, there's not. There's not one right way. There's lots of ways.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]:
So thinking back to those first days of being a dad, and I I talk to a lot of dads with daughters and a lot of dads are there's fear going into being a father, but there's also a fear of being a father to a daughter. What was your biggest fear in being a father to a daughter?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:02:47]:
Yeah. I guess when I was as I think back, I think generally when we when I had my little girl in my in my arms, I was just like, one, just never have done this before and kinda felt a little bit useless. My wife did a great job and was very patient very patient with me. And obviously, I wanted to be involved, but I guess my fear being with my, daughter is that I needed to, I don't know, just being present. I was just worried that I needed to make sure that I know it's not a right way, but in my head I was very thick. I had this fixed mindset. I would needed to get this right. So it was a little bit irrational and a little bit probably not correct, but I was 28 years old and trying to figure this out.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:03:27]:
And I was like, oh, shoot. I need to make sure that this like, my dad, Nessa, wasn't active in my life, so I didn't really have a picture of that. So I didn't have a compass to kinda help direct that. So for me, I it produced a little bit of anxiety in the beginning stages because I wanted to make sure that I wasn't doing it wrong. And I think my past story and, like, my my family of origin really kinda impacted and shaped how I viewed and my fears kind of were a little bit irrational starting off.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:56]:
Now, as I mentioned, you've got a few daughters and a number of sons that you've adapted as well. And I guess as you think about your daughters and raising your daughters into the women that they have become, what's been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:04:11]:
I think for me, probably the hardest part of being a father to daughter is just making sure I'm modeling to them what they want for their future spouse is I have to be intentional and present with my kids, but also intentionally and present with my wife and kind of model that. I know they're watching, especially now my daughter's 14, My adopted daughter's 25, and she's now married. So they're coming to us for wisdom and guidance, and I wanna make sure that I'm helping model what they're a princess and, like, they deserve the best and they deserve to be independent. They're gonna be independent and helping them develop self confidence. They need to have a dad in their corner that's cheering them on and an example to what it means to have a man in their life.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]:
I mentioned that you're a busy guy. You're running a nonprofit. You work in a community college and working with students there. You are doing a lot of different things. You've got a large family as well where you're balancing all of that. Talk to me about balance and what you've had to do to be able to balance your professional life, your personal life, to be that dad that you wanted to be.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:05:21]:
I guess when I think of the word balance, I don't necessarily know about if you're ever gonna balance it all out, but there is gonna be seasonality of certain things. So as I'm growing a business and then also building out a nonprofit, there is seasons where I have to be super intentional with that. And then there are seasons when like this summer, I'm just fully present with my kids. And one of the things that I've always tried to do is actually, as I go into my garage at home, there's a picture on the front and the driveway, as I go to park and it is a mental reset in my head that says, all right, this is my first ministry. This is my most important thing. This is my number one job is I don't get to just go home and just veg out. Even if I had a stressful conversation, stressful workday, have a bunch of deals undone, or I've had hard conversations. Like I have to get the reserve out of the tank and I have to reset my mind and say like, alright.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:06:14]:
So it's like a visual representation as I'm walking into my house that I'm like, alright. First ministry engaged with my kids. And what I've learned is that, like, there are certain moments with kids that are more, like, are more critical than others. So like early in the morning when they're waking up 5 minutes of attentional time, 1 on 1 eating breakfast together around the dinner table, there's no tech. There is time to like, and in the evening, going to saying prayers or going to bed at night. That's a really critical moment for our family. And then we've also built into our schedule. Like we have tech free Sundays, so it's kind of unique.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:06:49]:
We got 9 kids at home and they like technology just matches any other kid, but that's like a family day of like intentionality. I think there's been a shift with parenthood and fatherhood that it used to be like, Hey, in the old days, if you could just like make sure they're taken care of, that's great. Then it's the last probably 2 decades been like be a present father. But I think now I think that's halfway right. But I think now it needs to be like, now you need to be an intentional father, intentional to how you want them to develop. So for us, intentionality is critical. So for us, we do tech free Sundays. We have like a family breakfast.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:07:25]:
We'll go to play ball or play basketball, and we'll do some kind of activity together and laugh. Have fun play together when parents and dads play with their kids, play with their daughters, that's like releases so much stress and brings bond and it develops like oxytocin in the brain. And it's very important for kids to feel bonded and safe.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:48]:
So I mentioned that you have your 2 biological kids, you have 9 adopted kids. Tell me the story of moving into being a adoptive father and what that journey was like for you that made you and your wife decide that you wanted to move down that path?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:08:06]:
So we had a one biological daughter, Brooklyn. She's 14 now. And then we always felt called. I worked in a shelter in graduate school, working with kids in coming out of jail or had didn't have families. And I just fell in love with that work and knew that that was part of our path. It's crazy. Even at, you're not really twenties, my wife and I knew like, Hey, we're going to be a foster parent someday, which is pretty abnormal. So when we started, after we had our first daughter, we opened up our license.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:08:31]:
We've been foster grand for 15 years, have taken in, I would say about 15 kids and we had 4 for a little over 12 years ago, we had 4 kids under 4, which is a lot. And we had 2 biological kids and then 2 adopted kids and our life felt pretty good. I was working in a foster care group homes and there is a girl there though, she's 14 years old and she's was one of like very quiet and reserved and she was available for adoption. And I just kind of developed a bond with her. And my wife actually saw her on these websites that were talking about adoption and she kept pointing her out to me. And long story short, we just kind of felt called to take a leap. And we, we took her in as a 14 year old and she was the most shy reserved girl. She never played any sports in her life.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:09:16]:
I remember her senior year, she, we finally convinced her to go on some kind of sports team and she did badminton. I was like, oh, sweet badminton. And if you've ever went to a badminton game or a, a match, it's quiet. And I didn't know the rules and she's hitting the birdie and hitting it over. And I'm just, we're just cheering her and all of our siblings just cheering her on like crazy. And we didn't know the etiquette of the of the sport at all. But what I was so proud is that her senior year, she's been quiet and reserved her whole life. We go to do the banquet and she got player of the year and we were so proud of her.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:09:53]:
We have this mantra in our family and we, we say it over our kids. We think identity and language is really important for kids. So we say Pima, our daughter, you are strong, you are brave and you are kind, you are strong, you are brave, and you are kind. We say that's three things over and over again. In our business, we have them that says, you are strong, you are brave, you are kind. And so when she gets that payment, you are so strong. And like, or when she was nervous to go get her go to the community for the first time and go, Hey, I'm going to drive you up there, but you got to walk in. So dad, I can't do it.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:10:22]:
Dad, I can't do it. No. Pima, you are strong. You are brave. Let's go. And she stepped out and did that. And I remember so vividly her freshman year, she was finishing up her community college test and she went across the street to go get something to eat. And she looks over and she sees this guy panhandling on the street and are panhandling it.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:10:41]:
And she looks over and does a double take. And she realized she recognizes this guy, but he looks at her and he doesn't recognize her. She looks again, her heart starts to race and she says, dad, and it's her biological dad who's been an addict most of his life, is homeless on the street. And he said, do I know you? And he didn't even recognize her. And it just threw her in a spin. And that evening she comes home. We don't hear about this. She comes home and we're putting our younger four to bed and she's there with us.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:11:07]:
And she tells my wife and I this story. And she's shaking and she's sitting to us and then just starts to cry. And we say, Pima, you are strong, you are brave, and you are kind. You are loved. You are a center. You are so important in trying to speak that over her where someone feels so insecure and feels like nothing. And for girls, that's very, very common. And I think a dad's role is to speak truth and treat, speak that identity over her.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:11:32]:
And minutes later, she says, I want to put the kids to bed and she's never puts our kids to bed. So she runs upstairs, passes me by up the stairs and she runs up to my youngest son who's now 4 years old and she says, Maddox, she says, you are strong, you are brave and you are kind and you are going to college. And for me, she is now living into her identity and living into it and developing confidence because she's able to, to spur that onto other people. And for me, that's the role of a dad. It's the role of a foster parent. And that's a big moment for us. We have group homes and there was 5 kids that didn't have a family and our family was full. And long story short, we just kind of felt called to it.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:12:13]:
And it was a 2 year old to a 13 year old. We sold our house 2 years ago, found a place that could fit everybody, reopen our foster license, and took in these 5 kids and adopted them all this summer. So that's been a whirlwind as well. So I feel like I've lived enough for 3 decades for sure in 20 years.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:30]:
So you also run a nonprofit that helps to connect kids with families. And not only are you taking these kids into your own family and creating these opportunities for but you're also creating opportunities for other families as well. So talk to me about that and what drove you to create this nonprofit called Ohana that that is providing that, but also connecting these kids with other families.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:13:03]:
One of our adopted sons, we always called him Stitch, like from the movie, Lilo and Stitch. She's like this wild terror alien baby thing. And we always called him Stitch to life. He's a lover and a terror. And there's a quote in the movie. It says, Ohana means family and family means no one's left behind or forgotten. And it was so significant for our family. That's why we started our nonprofit called Ohana.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:13:23]:
And our belief is that every child deserves a family. Our belief is that a kid's past story doesn't define them. And what we have learned is that if a family is consistent and present, like any child's past hurts can be healed. So, we have kids who are available for adoption that we are trying to find forever families for. So we've adopted kids through that program, but we have about 90 kids that we serve and we have about 10 kids that get adopted every year, which is some of the biggest joy and awesome parts of the journey. And we try to equip parents that parents are like, oh, like when I was a young parent, I was like, I gotta be perfect and do this right. Even more so when you work as a foster parent. Oh, I gotta do this right.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:14:07]:
Yeah. Throw that out the window. Show up, be present, love them well, and they'll be alright.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:12]:
Well, and that's what I was gonna ask you was when you look at your whole family and how you parent your biological kids, your adoptive kids, I would guess I have 2 biological kids. I do not have adopted kids, but and I have not been a foster parent. But in my perspective, I would guess that you have to parent them the same way and you have to love them the same way.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:14:31]:
Absolutely. Yeah. So I, you, and it's interesting that like kids that we have adopted, like they are part of our family, the love that we have, people like, how could you do that? How could you love, like, I don't know your heart just kind of grows. Like, it's like part of the calling of like the adoption and foster care. But yes, you have to, I think you have to adjust your expectations when you're having a foster adopted child. Some of my kids, my son was in 7th grade and he was reading at a 2nd grade level. Okay. I can't have the same expectations for him.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:15:00]:
And some parents would be like, Hey, he needs to just focus on school. No sports. But I knew my kid had needed an outlet and he needed to move his body and needed to have something where he could have some wins and success. And for him it was soccer. So I made sure that he played soccer where my other kid says, Hey, if you have missing assignment, dude, you're not going to practice. But this kid needed to make sure that, so there is some, you have to adjust kind of your expectations and sometimes bonding takes more time, but they need love. Like my 25 year old daughter, she just still like, it took her forever to be able to hug and I didn't want to ever force it hug. But now she's like, first thing she does, she comes into my house and wants to give us the biggest hug and for an adopted child, that's a big deal.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:15:41]:
Especially for a 14 year old black girl who doesn't know, and I was a 35 year old white guy. It felt off. It didn't feel comfortable for her. And I respected that. But now it's time it's like, no, we're family. Like we're love. Like the love is deeper than any thing that makes us different.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:59]:
So if people are interested in being potential foster parents in the future, sometimes people think that this is a process that is really difficult and something that they don't wanna move down or they're scared because of some of the the things that kids may bring with them and what they have to be able to struggle with as a family, as they're bringing them into their family. What do you say to those people and how to get in or to work through some of the challenges that they may encounter in bringing foster kids into your family?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:16:35]:
A couple things. 1, you have to, 1, adjust your expectations. 1, it's not about you. It's about the child. So that has to be reorient yourself. I work with a lot of families that wanna complete their family. And that's great. I respect that.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:16:46]:
It can, that can be part of it. But also the primary thing is, like, I see this child and I want to make sure that they have hope and healing. That's gotta be foundation. But then there's also, like, just some people have been through it before. So I always reached out to people who have been in this before. Like, when we were struggling with our son and having behaviors, my god, what the what the crap do I do here? I asked people that knew. So there's, like, general words of wisdom is like, a, take younger than your kids that you have in your home. Take younger.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:17:15]:
Because why? Because they will help guide the culture of what to expect for them. I wouldn't get a kid that's older than your biological children. And making sure that you know their history and are prepared for that is an important aspect as well. And then having other people in your corner. So for me, it's like, I always gotta have family. I gotta have family, friends. We have a family of friends that will take their kid for a night and just give us a moment to reset. Because you're like, oh, this is a lot, occasionally.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:17:43]:
And having family to kinda help. Hey. Can you take the kids for a night so my wife and I so we can just have a chance to reset ourselves. And that was a big, big important thing.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:52]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:00]:
Yep. Gotcha. is fatherhood?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:00]:
In one word, whatDr. Ryan Senters [00:18:02]:
Intentional.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:03]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:08]:
My 14 year old daughter, we went to a dad daughter dance, and she loved being the dad's princess and being with me all the time. And we have the 4 year old little girl and she's like, we need to make sure she comes too. And she taught her how to dance and do all this other stuff. So that was a really big win. And we also just had my wife's 40th birthday and my daughter did a toast to her and talked so many great things. And my son, like, prayed over and blessing over the whole night. So that was super humbling and great.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:36]:
Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:40]:
I think they would say I'm fun. Love to play sport with the kids. I'm strict. They know that. And I'm a big believer that centers do hard things. So they know we do hard things together.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:18:52]:
My father-in-law for sure didn't have a dad, but he is a great picture of a dad for me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:57]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice. You've shared your story and talked about what you've gone through as a father yourself, or at least part of what you've gone through as a father yourself. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:19:09]:
Kinda go back. Fatherhood is more than just being present. Present is good. Present is is showing up to the game. It's maybe coaching once in a while. Maybe it's making sure you're not on your phone when your kids are talking to you present. That's awesome. But I think the next step of fatherhood is intentionality.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:19:26]:
Intentionality is having a picture of what you want your family to be about. A picture of what you want your kids' lives to be about. I want my kids to be more generous. I want them to serve others. I want them to learn to do hard things. So what's the picture? And then intentionality is, like, creating opportunities and moments to do those things and naming those. So for us, it's like we have an intentional like, we wanna we're creating a ranch for kids with special needs. So for us, like, we do hard things.Dr. Ryan Senters [00:19:53]:
So we're building our chicken coop, and we're all doing that together. My daughter, she's in a power of tools and making it happen. Why? Because I am teaching us, one, we do hard things and that we serve others. And I'm always pointing towards that So my kids can be reinforced that that is what we do. That's who we are more than just present. It's intentionality.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:12]:
If people want to find out more about Ohana or about you, where should they go?Dr. Ryan Senters [00:20:17]:
Yeah. So I have a podcast and I'm actually releasing one on fatherhood and parenthood, foster adoption, season this this fall. It's called Unleash Your Purpose, and you can look me up orioncenters.com, and ohanaaz.org is our organization.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:33]:
Well, Ryan, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for all that you're doing to be able to help connect kids with their forever families. And I truly wish you all the best.Ryan Senters [00:20:45]:
Thank you. Thanks for having me on.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:46]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men, get out and beat the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.
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Fatherhood presents unique challenges and opportunities for growth, particularly when raising daughters. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Don Manning or Crazy Cool Family delving deep into the realities of father-daughter relationships, providing valuable insights and practical strategies for dads committed to being the best they can be.
Reframing Teenage YearsUnderstanding and Embracing the Journey
A common perception is that the teenage years are inevitably challenging. Dr. Christopher Lewis offers a refreshing perspective, suggesting that with the right approach, these years can be full of positive experiences and growth for both fathers and daughters. Central to this approach is the belief in the importance of a strong family belief system and a nurturing environment. By actively working to build relationships, fathers can play a crucial role in creating a supportive and understanding family dynamic.
Personal Growth and Faith
Dr. Lewis shares his personal journey, where his Christian faith and a wealth of parenting literature have significantly influenced his parenting style. The emphasis on feeling seen and heard in reversing trauma is a key takeaway, underscoring the importance of emotional availability and sensitivity to a child's needs.
Creating a Family CultureBuilding a Network of Relationships
The concept of building a family culture akin to a network of relationships is pivotal in maintaining strong family dynamics. Dr. Lewis emphasizes that this approach can create a cohesive unit where each member feels valued and understood. The ripple effect of this approach is evident in Lewis's own family, where their methodologies attracted interest from others, leading to the development of a curriculum, writing a book, and creating a ministry.
Resources for Continuous Improvement
Over time, their ministry has developed numerous resources, including parenting books, a podcast, interactive workbooks, and a daily email subscription, all aimed at helping dads improve their relationships with their children. These resources stress the importance of fathers becoming better listeners, more encouraging, and building trust with their children.
Challenges for Modern DadsTechnology and Connection
Modern dads face unique challenges, notably the impact of technology on family connections and the lack of training in relationship-building. The podcast highlights the need for fathers to be proactive in carving out quality time with their children, away from screens and distractions.
Spending Quality Time
Intentional involvement in everyday activities, be it errands or special outings, is key to building strong bonds. Such consistent, quality time helps in understanding and connecting with each child's unique personality.
Vulnerability and Self-ImprovementImportance of Being Open and Transparent
Both speakers agree that vulnerability—being open, transparent, and admitting faults—is crucial in forming stronger connections with daughters. This openness fosters a sense of trust and mutual respect, which is essential for a healthy father-daughter relationship.
Focusing on Self-Improvement
Dr. Lewis stresses that presenting the best version of oneself is more beneficial for children than focusing on their shortcomings. This perspective encourages dads to embark on a continuous journey of self-improvement, setting a positive example for their children.
Parenting with Faith Over FearDon Manning’s Journey
Don Manning shares his experience transitioning from parenting with fear to parenting with faith. Initially, fear led him to adopt a controlling style, which proved ineffective. Over time, Manning learned that building relational connections was far more impactful than merely enforcing rules.
Encouragement and Trust
Manning emphasizes that no single approach to parenting is always correct. The hardest part, he notes, is dealing with fear and learning to trust that his daughters will make the right choices despite the challenges they may face. This approach fosters a more relaxed and nurturing environment.
Crazy Cool Family MissionTransforming Fatherhood
Dr. Lewis discusses the mission of Crazy Cool Family, an organization aimed at helping parents improve their relationships with their children and become better versions of themselves. The ministry encourages fathers to be actively involved and continuously learn about parenting and relationships.
Shared Experience and Reevaluating Beliefs
Most men aspire to be good fathers but often lack the knowledge or vision to achieve this goal. Reflecting on their upbringing or external challenges, both speakers recommend reevaluating long-held beliefs about parenting and embracing new insights—such as Dr. Lewis’s realization about teenage rebellion.
ConclusionFatherhood is a lifelong journey of learning, growth, and forming deep connections. By embracing vulnerability, prioritizing quality time, and committing to self-improvement, dads can navigate the complexities of raising daughters with confidence and grace. The insights shared by Dr. Christopher Lewis and Don Manning provide a roadmap for fathers striving to build strong, loving relationships with their daughters.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created by CASTMAGIC)
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, you and I are on a journey together. I love being able to walk this path with you every week as we are talking about the thing that I know I'm most passionate about and I'm sure you're most passionate about, which is raising our daughters and raising them into being those strong, independent women that we want them to be in their lives. And I know in the path that I've been on, there have been so many dads that I've turned to to try and gain more perspective. Because I didn't know everything, And no dad knows everything. And as you walk into fatherhood, there's not one right manual. There's not one right way to father.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]:
So it's so important that we as men are willing to step up and ask questions and listen and watch and learn, but be able to also take some tools from other people, put them in our own toolbox and be able to put them to work. And that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you to find other resources, find other ways of doing things to be able to help you on this journey that you're on. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that allow for you to be able to go on this path with others. Because we all have a journey to be on, and it's so important to be able to learn from others. And today we've got another great guest. Don Manning is with us today. And Don has been on a parenting journey for quite some time.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]:
He's got 7 kids, 4 daughters, 3 sons, And he is a business owner. He's an investor. He has worked in real estate. He does a lot of different things, but he also has something called crazy cool family. And we're gonna be talking about that as well as him being a father himself, and I'm really excited to have him here. Don, thanks so much for being here today.Don Manning [00:02:24]:
Yeah. Glad to be here. You said strong, independent women, and that's so I just laugh because that describes my 4 daughters to a t, and my wife too. I mean, I've got very we've got very strong independent women in our household, so it just that's funny when you said that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:42]:
I want to turn the clock back in time on you, and I know that you've got kids that range all the way from 34 on down. And your oldest 4 are your daughters. So I wanna go back to that first moment. That first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter, what was going through your head?Don Manning [00:03:00]:
Well, first of all, so my wife brought our first daughter to the marriage. So I knew I was going to be a so I've got a blended family, you know, and so my wife then we had 3 girls and 3 sons together after that. So when we got married, my oldest daughter was 2. In some ways, I say I fell in love with her daughter and married the mom, but that's not really true. But I really had no idea. So I'd I was the youngest in my family. I'd never been around kids. And suddenly, I'm married, and I have this 2 year old, and I'm not her dad.Don Manning [00:03:36]:
And so quick story, so you're talking about first memory. So Suzanne and I dated my wife, Suzanne, and I, we dated for a year before we got married. So we were you know, I was I was accustomed to Molly, our our oldest daughter. And so but we go on. We get married and and, we go on our honeymoon and we come back and I'm like, okay. Because Suzanne, you know, this was so typical of a dad. You know, I know how to parent better than she does. Right? And I've watched her parents, so I'm like, I can give her some advice.Don Manning [00:04:03]:
You know? As we come into the house, new sheriff in town. We're gonna take over. We're gonna help her help my wife become a better parent. Right? That's that's kind of the the mantra I had coming in because I knew everything. And so the first night we get back home, and Molly's daughter would wake up in the middle of the night, and she there was 2 things. She would wake up and she would cry, and she had a a pretty sensitive gag reflex. So I walk up there, and and and when I was with Suzanne, she would tell me about how, you know, she would have to stay up with her all night. And I was like, hey, I'll help you with this because I think I can get her to go to sleep.Don Manning [00:04:39]:
You know? Obviously, you know, again, I knew everything. I was so I walk up there. The first night, she's crying. Honey, let me handle this for you. And I walk up the stairs to the second to the bedroom where her crib was, and I said, Molly, you know, I don't have my shirt on because, you know, I'm 27 years old. I was in shape at that time. And, you know, so I walk up there and I'm just and I'm holding Molly out, and I just said, Molly, we you know, just gently I'm not being rude or anything, but just, Molly, we need to go to bed. You know, this is something we're gonna do.Don Manning [00:05:07]:
And she looks at me and throws up all over me. And so that was my that was my initiation into marriage, into parenting the 1st night. And I'm like, I mean not I mean I don't have my shirt on so it's thrown up all over me. I'm going, oh my goodness this what is this life going to be? What is parenting? I was just so defeated at that point and so it got better after that. But that was my initiation into parenting right there. It's a little bit different than the hospital, but, that's where I was.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:40]:
That's quite the induction into being a father. And, you know, one of the things that a lot of dads tell me, especially dads of daughters, tells me that there's some fear, some fear in not only becoming a father, but fear in being a father to a daughter. What would you say has been your biggest fear in raising your daughters?Don Manning [00:06:01]:
Yeah. I totally agree, and it's been something that has I think getting away from fear, what I call it going from fear to faith, has revolutionized my parenting. I mean, you know, I tell dads a lot, you know, I speak to dads a lot in our ministry. Crazy Cool Family, what you're referring to is is our ministry we do now, and we'll talk about that later. But a lot of times when I talk to dads, I say, you know, realize at one time it was it was me and 5 women in my house. And one, there was a fear that I didn't understand these beings that and so what fear and really my fear was is that they wouldn't turn out well. That, you know, that they would be, you know, sexually active maybe or, you know, in negative ways, or they would be rebellious, or they would, you know, get that all the things you think about as a dad, they're gonna be addicted to drugs, they're gonna be, you know, not able to do relationships, and just all the things that that come out of it. And so and I'm a teacher at heart, so what I really focused on is helping them to obey and make sure they did what I said.Don Manning [00:07:05]:
And I thought that was being a good dad, you know, that I could if I if I protected them and my fears led me to wanna protect and to teach and to tell them what to do. And when they didn't do it, I told them again, and I told them again, and I told them again. And, you know, so the the fear was really that they weren't gonna turn out well, and the way I responded to that was I just got onto them all the time. And that really didn't connect relationally, and I and over time, I just wasn't working, and I found they they avoided me. Some you know, they started they were a good relationship. I mean, I was involved in their lives, but it was still challenging as I my fear led me to do things that were not helpful in parenting.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:44]:
And as you're talking about parenting, I know you have 7 kids, and parenting is never easy. There's always those ups and downs as you're raising your kids. They're always going to throw you through a loop. There's not one right way to parent, but there's gonna be times where things are gonna be good and things that times that are where things might be more challenging. What's been the hardest part in being a dad to a daughter?Don Manning [00:08:04]:
I think one of the biggest challenges I've found is understanding the female and as a male understanding the female, and I've really done a lot of work with that to try to understand my daughters to to to really get to the bottom of their hearts. So they because I believe that belief and determines behavior, that how we believe and what we do determines who we are. And so rather than so often I felt like I was dealing with the surface, and the deeper I went with the relationship and the connection, the better my parenting got.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:37]:
Now when you have so many kids you have 7 kids, so that's a lot of kids, you know, and a lot of things going on in that household. And with 4 daughters, one of the things that I guess that I would question for you is as a father, I know with 2 my 2 daughters, they're very different people. They have different personalities, and they bring different dynamics not only to the home, but also just to the ethos of the environment. And I have to be very intentional about understanding who they are, what they need, and who they are as individuals to be able to build those unique relationships. How did you build those unique relationships with your daughters?Don Manning [00:09:17]:
No substitute for time. For example, I I tell dads a lot that when I was a young dad with young children, young daughters, one of the things I did was I just took them with me whenever I went somewhere. So if I went to Home Depot, I was gonna have a 3 year old girl with me, and I would take them out on certain dates. Like, we would just go and, you know, for example, we and it didn't have to always be just one child. You know, with 7, sometimes you have to do different things, but I would meet my buddy at Chick Fil A, and we would he had a couple kids. I had a couple kids with me, and and we would let them play, and and we would talk, and then but they would interact. And a lot of times we talk about it, Crazy Cool Family, it's along the way. There's a scripture that talks about in Deuteronomy where you do it when you lie down, when you rise up, when you're walking along the road.Don Manning [00:10:04]:
It's like so often I think relationship is developed along the way. And if you just include your kids in your lives and you're included in their lives, there's a lot of you know, it may be in the car. It may be when they're going to bed at night. For example, I made sure that I my wife was at home with these kids, so she was exhausted by the end of the day. Bedtime was a big time for me, and I took jobs that didn't travel so I could be home at night. Decisions made like that helped me to make connections, deciding to include them in my life. And then the other thing I would say about that relationship is learning to be someone that asks questions. So often as dads we are in the lecture business.Don Manning [00:10:48]:
We are, you know, we're efficient and we tell them what to do and we make sure that everything is taken care of. But in reality, the, the need is with especially with females again is to ask questions and to not tell them what to do but find out what's in their heart And that allows us to connect with them better.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:08]:
In raising daughters, one of the things when you say about connecting to their heart, I think about the fact that I know that I've had to step back and really look at my own self to be able to better understand my daughters and know that they are going to be expecting of me things that I would not always expect of other men, of other people. And it's been a journey. And it's been something that I know that is not always an easy journey, but I've had to step back. I've had to be willing to explain when I'm wrong, explain and talk to them about and be a bit more vulnerable with them than so I think we're always programmed to be. Talk to me about vulnerability for yourself and how you've had to be vulnerable to be able to make those connections with your own daughters.Don Manning [00:11:59]:
Yeah. The first thing I I love what you just said is that is you're talking about yourself first and how you change to be a better parent and a better person. One of the things we tell people a lot is the best thing that I can do for my family is to present my family the best version of me. That so often as dads, we wanna say, I need to improve my kid. My kid needs to improve. They need to do this better, and so often the real focus needs to be on us because, and, it's not just the connection, but our example to our children is more important than our instruction. Who we are with them, they see through the instruction to the person. They're gonna follow a whole lot more of who we are versus what we tell them.Don Manning [00:12:47]:
And so I think that's a great what you just said is awesome that what can we do to be the best version of ourselves? And when we are vulnerable, when we are transparent is another way I like to put that is I find that my daughters would respond so much better to me. And again, just the the asking questions, the telling them, you know, realizing so often I think we need to we we need to show our daughters that we are perfect. And in reality, that's not the best way to parent in my opinion. It's you know, you're talking about there's not one method and that's so true, but there are concepts that do work well and one of those is to be transparent, is to be vulnerable, and to share with them things about your life that's going on as well as listen to things about them without being so judgmental. What does judgment come from? Judgment comes from fear. You know, our daughter tells us something and we are scared that they're gonna go down a path and so we want to stop them. We do it with the best intentions. The same way we don't tell them things about ourselves because we don't think they'll respect us or we don't think they'll like us.Don Manning [00:13:51]:
We have things hidden in our hearts that we think are bad that we don't want anybody to see. But when we keep those in, they see them anyway. And so so often and so then we become kind of hypocritical to them and we lose respect.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:04]:
So let's transition a little bit because you've been talking a little bit about your crazy cool family and the mission, the organization that you started to be able to help parents, help fathers, help mothers to be who they want to be. But talk to me about the the genesis of this and where you started this and where you are today.Don Manning [00:14:24]:
Well, when I was 4 daughters, like I said, 5 women in my house. I wanna be a good father, you know, and honestly, I talk to men all over the country now with our ministry. I find that most men want to be good to great fathers. They really do. I think I rarely talk to a dad. He's like, you know, I don't really care about being a father. It's not real high on my priority list. I mean, do you see the same thing?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:49]:
I do. People want to be the best dads, but they don't always know how to.Don Manning [00:14:53]:
Yeah. And maybe life is a little bit overwhelming or there's challenges in our life. Everything from work to even addictions to we didn't come from those type of homes. I also find that a lot of dads don't really have a vision for what family can be, and I didn't really either at that time. I'll give you an example. I was at a conference just a couple of weeks ago, and they're talking about well, even going back to a few many years ago, somebody said teenage rebellion does not have to happen. And my wife and I looked at each other, and we were like, wow. That really challenges our belief system because we have been brought up thinking that, oh, wow.Don Manning [00:15:32]:
The teenage years are just gonna be so hard and it's, you know, it's always gonna be just almost a disaster and we never know what they're gonna do and, you know, just all the things. And at this conference I was at a couple weeks ago, there was a lot of people talking about that. Well, I wanted to tell them I didn't get a chance. I wasn't my I was just participating in it, but I wanted to tell them, guys, hey. It doesn't have to be like that. What if your belief system is that that teenagers are fun and teenagers are gonna be a a delight to your family? Well, so years ago, I'm I'm probably 10 years into this journey and I'm going, you know what? I wanna I wanna be my best, and I wanna you know, in effect, I'm a competitive guy, and I just said, I wanna win at family. I'm gonna put a lot of time, effort, and energy into this. And what does winning at family look like for our family? And so we're a we're a Christian based organization, Christian family, and we said we want our kids to have great faith.Don Manning [00:16:31]:
We want us to have we want them to have great relationships with us. We want them to make wise decisions. We want them to follow our faith and be able to choose that. We want them to have the choice but be able to choose that. And and I was like, how do I get there? And so what happened was is that we just started to study a lot of things within the church as well as other authors and people, and it was really interesting to me that it was all over the board that the parenting literature and advice and things were all over the board. But we found that as for our 7 kids, it's kind of going back to what we said before, that when we connected the people who were having success and this was either faith based or not faith based. I'm reading a book right now about the effect of trauma on children and it is amazing and they say that even trauma can be reversed if a child has parents or other parents first or other people that are relationally connected in their lives, if they feel like they are seen and heard. And so we found that true in our family that the connection was so important and that the culture we were building in our family was super important.Don Manning [00:17:41]:
We needed almost like building a greenhouse in our home for the relationships. I look at family as a now, as a network of relationships, And so goes that network, so often so goes our family. And so we started to focus on that and then over time, our kids started to really again, the girls and the boys started to really respond to that. And when you, you know, Christopher, when you have 7 kids and they're good kids, people start asking you what you're doing because they and they really were. We had a good relationship with them because we focused on that. They had good relationships with each other for the most part, and they were confident kids that were not and they weren't valedictorians and they weren't the star athletes. It wasn't about that. They just they just radiated a confidence in their lives, and and and our family kinda was was becoming a little bit set apart.Don Manning [00:18:34]:
And this was honestly, a lot of it was in our church, and people started asking us, hey. Would you show us what you're doing? And because, you know, just like we did, we we talked to a lot of successful families what we And so that led to us just teaching younger families in our church and developing a curriculum which eventually led to writing a book, and now we have a ministry. And we're a Christian ministry, but we really focus on how to build connections within your home, that family network of relationships, and how to build that culture where we just believe if you build well on the inside, you can handle anything on the outside.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:10]:
And I know you have a number of resources that you've created over some time, and one is a podcast, and you've got some workbooks. Talk to me about some of the resources that you've created and what you're trying to accomplish through the different means that you're trying to engage with people?Don Manning [00:19:28]:
We started out with our book, Crazy Cool Family. We've written now 7 parenting books that are on Amazon. Everything from our workbooks to certain little what we call microbooks, which are very, like, very issue based. It's just short, little, quick reads. You can go to Amazon and type in Don and Suzanne Manning or Don Manning or whatever. I haven't figured out yet how to make Amazon link it to Crazy Cool Family yet because it's because we're the authors of the books. But so usually, I tell people to go to Amazon and type in Don Don Manning, and you can see all of our resources there. But, basically, we started out with a book, and then at that time, we started out with a podcast.Don Manning [00:20:06]:
We were just talking. Both of us have about 250 episodes. We've been doing we've been doing ours about this is this is season 6 of our podcast. So, and we do it about once a week. So there's lots of resources in that podcast. So we've talked about we've got different guests or sometimes Suzanne and I just talk or we've talked with our kids sometimes. Lots of different resources there. And then this year we came out with what I'm really excited about is what we call our 2 guides, which are basically just 2 6 session workbooks.Don Manning [00:20:36]:
It's very interactive. They're only hard copy because you get to journal in them and really go through them, and they're available on Amazon and but those two manuals together, there's, like, 12 sessions in both manuals together. They create this comprehensive guide to giving you the key concepts to how to connect everyone in your family and how to build that culture in your home. All the resources kinda have the same theme. They're just different delivery systems for them. And then the last thing I'll tell you is is we also have a daily email that we can you can subscribe to on our website, crazycoolfamily dotcom. It's a couple of minutes a day. It's it's again, it's faith based as our ministry is, but it's a it's a quick clip every day.Don Manning [00:21:17]:
You can read it in 2 minutes or less just about to kinda drip our concepts into dads and moms about how to connect with their kids and how to connect everyone in their family and they build unity and culture in their homes.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:31]:
Now you've worked with a lot of dads over the years, I'm sure. And with the conversations that you're having, but whether it be in person or through other means, what are some of the biggest struggles that some of the men that you're talking with are dealing with? And how are you helping them to be able to move through those challenges?Don Manning [00:21:51]:
I think the biggest challenge that men face today is the technology and the culture that are out there. And it is difficult to connect with our kids when all they wanna do is get on their phone. And I think that and the secondary you know, the corollary to that is is that as dads, we're usually not well trained in how to reach our kids. We're not really well trained in the relationship arena. And when you combine the technology that's separating all of us with that we're not trained with the relationships, then a lot of dads are having trouble with that connection piece with their children and so and also with their wives. And so we do a lot towards helping dads learn to become better listeners, more encouraging, more inspiring. You know, so many dads are, oh, they're on their phone all the time. I can't talk to them, and when I do, I feel like I'm getting on to them all the time.Don Manning [00:22:49]:
Well, there's different ways to overcome that. And we focus a lot to help dads learn how to build trust with their kids, build relationship with their kids. And really, so many dads, it's not really that fun being a dad. Well, it can be. It can be a lot of fun with the right attitudes and concepts, and we try to help them do that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:07]:
So you've been doing this now for quite some time. And as you look at the future, where is Crazy Cool Family going?Don Manning [00:23:15]:
Great question. I what we find is learning to be a parent does not happen in days weeks. It doesn't happen in a weekend seminar. It happens over months years. As parenting is a long term game, it's something and, you know, I I really challenge dads a lot to become learners. I was with a dad just, you know, a few weeks ago, and blended family had come together. They had 6 kids between them, had been married for a few years. And I challenged those dads, you know, at that conference to be learners.Don Manning [00:23:46]:
You know, what what are you doing to learn about being a dad and and to to improve your dad's skills? And he goes, you know, he goes, man, I'm in IT, and I'm always learning about technology. He goes, I on the side, I'm a personal trainer, and I'm always learning new things about personal training neck techniques and and nutrition and things like that and and weightlifting and aerobics. He said, I've never thought about learning to be a dad. And I'm like, I'm glad you came because, you know, now he's got a new focus. I said, how do you expect to be a great dad if you never learn? And the way you learn to be a dad is not by reading one book. It is by consistently putting input in over the course of years. And then just like anything else, you know, Steph Curry didn't learn how to shoot the jump shot he has today in in a weekend. He learned it over months years and and continual practice.Don Manning [00:24:37]:
And that's what we try. That's where Crazy Cool Family is going with our daily email, with our materials. We want to kinda we want to be a a part of a man's life and a family's life for years as we drip our content into them so that those parents can learn over time to become excellent at the most, and arguably the most important thing we'll ever do in our lives.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:59]:
No. It is so important, and I appreciate you sharing that. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Don Manning [00:25:09]:
Yeah. Absolutely. I feel like I'm on jeopardy or something.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:13]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?Don Manning [00:25:15]:
Relationship. It's connection. I think the most important thing we can do in fatherhood is connect.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:21]:
Now when was the time that you finally found that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Don Manning [00:25:26]:
I don't know that I've found that yet. I I think with every daughter, it was different. There's different times that I won their heart. But I think that when I feel like there's trust in the relationship and there's interaction, there's a bridge that I feel like I've crossed with each daughter and with my wife too, where we trust each other.Dr. Christopher Lewis[00:25:47]:
Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?Don Manning [00:25:52]:
It's interesting. My younger kids would have described me as an intense, teaching, challenging dad. My older kids would describe me as still intense, but more encouraging. And I would say they probably describe me as involved, that I coached all their sports teams. I, loved to connect with them, and I think they would describe it as involved.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:15]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Don Manning [00:26:17]:
Jesus. I don't want that to be trite, but I believe that the best example of being a father is God. And when Jesus was baptized so Jesus is 30 years old. He has not started his ministry yet. He has done nothing of importance. He's he's a carpenter, basically. And he gets baptized, and God says something to him when he comes up out of the water. He says, this is my son whom I love.Don Manning [00:26:42]:
In him I am well pleased. And I ask dads this a lot, and I ask myself this question. Do my children believe that I believe that about them? You know, this is my I own you. I claim you. Not I own you, but I claim you. I love you and I'm pleased with you. I'm delighted in you. I think you're amazing.Don Manning [00:27:01]:
Is that what our kids think? And that's the best model of parenting I've ever seen.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:07]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you learned along the way, things they've learned from other parents and other fathers. As we're finishing up today, what's one piece of advice you want to give to every dad?Don Manning [00:27:18]:
Be a learner. I mean, if one of the things is is that I tell dads this a lot that if you could have seen me as a dad at year 5 and you would see my kids today. You would be like, there's no way. There's no way that could happen because I was there was so much I had to learn. And, honestly, I started out I wasn't very good at being a dad. I mean, I tried hard because that was kind of a mantra of my life. I am a hard worker, and I do like to I'm motivated, and I'm I'm not lazy. But, man, I just messed it up a lot, especially with my young girls.Don Manning [00:27:53]:
And so I would tell dads to be a learner and to learn about themselves as well as a learner about relationships because the the cool deal about this deal with fatherhood is we can all be amazing. I believe every dad can be amazing. I believe every relationship with every child can be amazing. There's things we need to learn and it's not easy, but it is possible. And I want to tell dads that you can win and it's worth winning. It is so fun to do family when things are going well and it is so difficult when things are not going well.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]:
Well, Don, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for sharing the journey that you've been on, but also the journey that you've been on to help other parents in many different ways. If people wanna get a hold of you or find out more about you, where should they go?Don Manning [00:28:44]:
Crazycoolfamily.com is our website. And then just if they wanna email me directly, it's it's don at crazycoolfamily.com. I hear from dad and parents all over the country with different questions and things, and our resources are all there. I would really challenge them to sign up for our daily email because we not only do a daily email, but we also tell you of things that we're doing to help you go further with your fathering and parenting journey. And so that would be the place to start out with is connect with that daily email. Promise you, it's a quick read, and you'll be encouraged and inspired to be your best.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:18]:
Well, Don, thanks again for being here today, and I wish you all the best.Don Manning [00:29:21]:
Thanks for having me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:22]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.
We're all in the same boat and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. -
The Journey of Being a Dad
Fatherhood is a journey filled with joy, challenges, and continuous growth. On the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we sit down with Damien Moore, a dedicated father and founder of Dad’s Daily Digest. Through their engaging conversation, Damien shares heartfelt experiences, invaluable insights, and practical advice for fathers striving to raise resilient and compassionate children.
Preparing for the UnexpectedThe Impact of COVID-19 on Fatherhood
Damien Moore’s journey into fatherhood coincided with an unprecedented global event—the COVID-19 pandemic. His daughter was born just six weeks before the world shut down. As a budding freelance professional, Damien faced the harsh reality of job loss while also navigating the new terrain of fatherhood amidst a pandemic. The absence of his family in the crucial initial months underscored the emotional strain many new parents faced during this period.
"There’s no parenting tips or books that tell you how to parent during a pandemic," Damien states, highlighting the uncertainty that clouded the early days of his fatherhood journey.
Despite these challenges, Damien found solace and support in technology, enabling constant communication with his family through virtual platforms. This adaptability and reliance on a support network became a cornerstone of his approach to parenting during these trying times.
Addressing Mental Health: A Family AffairUnderstanding and Managing Anxiety
Both Damien and his wife come from families with a history of mental health challenges, making them acutely aware of the importance of mental well-being. Recognizing early signs of anxiety in their daughter, they took proactive steps to understand and address her needs. From withholding toileting behaviors to being easily startled, these manifestations of anxiety required a sensitive and informed approach.
"We adapt as parents based on our kids’ personalities," shares Damien, emphasizing the need for a tailored parenting approach that considers individual differences.
Damien’s candidness about his own mental health struggles and his decision to seek therapy underline the importance of self-awareness and the willingness to seek help. By sharing these experiences, he sets a powerful example for other fathers, encouraging them to prioritize their mental health for the benefit of their families.
Building a Supportive CommunityThe Birth of Dad’s Daily Digest
Inspired by personal experiences and a desire to support other fathers, Damien launched Dad’s Daily Digest—a platform aimed at providing advice, sharing stories, and fostering a supportive community among fathers. The alarming rise in suicide rates during the pandemic, particularly among men, motivated Damien to create a space where fathers could find solace, encouragement, and practical tips on navigating the complexities of parenthood.
"If I just touch one person and inspire one individual... that’s all that matters to me."
Through this platform, Damien hopes to tackle the stigma around mental health and provide a lifeline to fathers who might be struggling in silence. His unwavering commitment to making a positive impact, even if it’s one person at a time, speaks volumes about his dedication to this cause.
Lessons in Empathy and CompassionA Beautiful Gesture
In a touching anecdote shared on the podcast, Damien recounts a moment with his daughter that encapsulates the essence of the lessons he strives to impart. While at a McDonald's drive-thru, his daughter’s simple yet profound act of kindness towards a homeless individual demonstrated the values of empathy and generosity that Damien and his wife instill in her.
"Her gesture was just so beautiful… it nearly brought me to tears."
These moments of heartfelt connection not only reinforce the principles Damien values but also highlight the significant impact that nurturing a compassionate environment can have on a child’s development.
Looking Towards the FutureHopes and Aspirations
As Damien continues to build Dad’s Daily Digest, his ultimate aspiration is to become a motivational speaker, sharing his journey and insights on a larger scale. By doing so, he hopes to inspire and support more fathers in their quest to raise strong, compassionate daughters while also navigating their own personal challenges.
In concluding his conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Damien leaves listeners with a powerful piece of advice: put life into perspective, recognize your blessings, and approach each day with gratitude. These principles not only shape his parenting philosophy but also serve as a guiding light for fathers everywhere striving to be the best they can be.
This comprehensive blog post captures the essence of the podcast episode, featuring key anecdotes and insights shared by Damien Moore, ultimately providing valuable guidance and motivation for fathers navigating the beautiful yet challenging journey of parenthood.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created using CASTMAGIC)
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dance with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are trying to be the best dad that you wanna be. And as you are trying to raise your daughters into those strong independent women that all of us want for our kids. And I so appreciate that you come back every week to be able to learn, to grow, to be willing to hear the stories of others, and to be able to take those stories and be able to turn them into action. Because it is important. It's important to be able to be willing to listen and to learn and to know that none of us have all the answers. None of us are perfect ads, and nobody has the handbook in regard to what it means and what it takes to be the perfect dad.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:16]:
There's lots of different ways to father, lots of different ways to be a dad. And you can learn along the way if you're open to it and you're willing to listen and learn from others. That's why this podcast exists. Every week, I bring you different people, different dads, different individuals with resources that can help you to be that dad that you wanna be. And today, we got another great guest with us. Damian Moore is with us. And Damien is a father and also is has has a resource out there called Dad's Daily Digest. So we're gonna be talking about both of those aspects, getting to know him a little bit more, and I'm really excited to have him here.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]:
Damien, thanks so much for being here today.Damien Moore [00:01:54]:
Thank you so much for having me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]:
Well, I'm really excited to have you here today. And I always start these episodes with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I'd love to go back. I know your daughter is 4 and a half, and I would love to go back and might be 4 and a half years, could be 5a half years. But I wanna go back to the very first moment that you found that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head?Damien Moore [00:02:18]:
Yeah. So I was actually in the UK at the time. I found out the gender. My wife called me. I was visiting family. I'm originally from the UK and France, and I got the call. And it was just ecstatic. I mean, it's you know, I think as a guy, I I always thought, you know, I'd like to have a little boy.Damien Moore [00:02:35]:
But I've always friends of mine who have actually many of my friends had daughters before me. And they, you know, told me just how precious it was and how special it was to have that kind of daddy daughter bond. So, I mean, I was absolutely ecstatic to find out that news. And, yeah, to this day, it's just the greatest feeling, and bond is so true, and I've just loved every minute so far.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:55]:
Now I talked to a lot of dads, and and a lot of dads and daughters talk to me about the fact that walking into fatherhood can be scary in general, just being a father, because we don't know always what we're getting into. But being a father of a daughter sometimes brings its own fears. What would you say has been your biggest fear in raising a daughter?Damien Moore [00:03:14]:
I think, as you say, I obviously t to raise a confident, independent girl, one that kind of can can take on the world in her own way. Take on the world in her own way. I don't wanna, you know, control her too much. I wanna her to understand that the world is is a fluid and flexible place that you can kind of embrace in many different ways. And I think being raised by a a very kind of strong mother, you know, she instilled kind of positivity in me every day and just to kind of really embrace the world ahead of us and challenges and and opportunities. And I think I just wanna give her that opportunity every day that life is a beautiful thing and it's embrace every day with kind of open arms. There will be challenges. There will be tough times, and it's how you best prepare them for those moments in life when they one day leave the nest.Damien Moore [00:03:56]:
You know, we have a role as parents to be there for their whole lives until we die, but when they're here at home with us, when we're raising them, we have a responsibility to kind of, you know, keep them safe and make sure that they understand and and teach them in in a in a in a way that's not too I wouldn't say too controlling, but in a way that kind of allows them to understand the world up, you know, outside of the house and be best prepared as possible. Because life can be tough. You know? Life throws all sorts of challenges. And for me particularly, you know, I had my daughter 6 weeks before COVID closed down the world and went through a really personal tough time during that moment because my own family couldn't visit my daughter. Basically, 16 months. They didn't meet her until she was 16 months old, and as a new dad, particularly wanted to celebrate this moment. This was like something you dream of. You celebrate the birth of your first child with your parents, with your your siblings, and it was really tough.Damien Moore [00:04:44]:
They they were 1 week away from coming to America, and then the borders closed, and it was kind of a there's no, like, parenting tips or books that tell you how to parent during a pandemic. It's like, that doesn't exist. So, you know, my wife and I kind of went through the motions of, like, wow, this is actually happening. The world's shutting down. We have a 6 week 6 week old daughter. I was actually freelancing at the time and lost my job as well. So it all happened at a very, very stressful moment, like and it was, like, gonna be this most beautiful thing ever, and it was. Like, you know, the first few weeks was, like, incredible.Damien Moore [00:05:14]:
You know, we've got dogs at home. It's like the dogs are super happy to have this new baby at home, but then the world shut down, and we had to kind of really adjust and figure life out as new parents during a COVID pandemic. And I think those life learnings for me just reiterate how we can best prepare our kids for the unexpected and for, you know, just to be best prepared for the real world.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:34]:
Definitely a challenging time, and COVID threw us all through a loop in many different ways. But being able to have a child right at the beginning and not being able to allow for your family and others to be able to interact. How did you have to pivot, especially losing a job, having a new child, just a couple of stressors in that situation during that pandemic? How did you pivot to be able to make the most of what you had, but also be able to move forward with being a father and moving into a new job and and other things as well.Damien Moore [00:06:12]:
Yes. I mean, thankfully, even now during COVID and and now, my wife's family is very close to us. So thankfully, we had her support network. So we had her mom, her brothers, and other wider family members around us. So we had that support, which was very needed at the time. Now for me, personally, I I did struggle not having my mom, my dad available right next door. So we're blessed today to have great technology, so FaceTime was critical. You know, we did a lot of FaceTiming, and it's amazing how, you know, from just an early age, how much these children pick up and learn and they recognize faces.Damien Moore [00:06:45]:
So the first time my daughter met my mom when she was 16 months old, she wasn't a complete stranger because she she did recognize her through the FaceTime interaction. So we're lucky today to have that type of technology to stay in touch with members of our family despite the distances. I mean, moving to America, I always knew, you know, building a life here and having a family here would always be different than what I was raised with because I was raised with family members very close to me in the UK. But I knew I was kind of giving, you know, distance between me and my family, so I always knew that my parents always have a different relationship with my daughter than my my brother's daughters who live in the UK. And I was okay with that because I know technology is great today to kind of stay in touch. I mean, from a professional standpoint, on the job side, it was a rough few months. I personally am very I'm kind of an extrovert. I love being around people.Damien Moore [00:07:30]:
I love socializing. So COVID was tough on that side of my own kind of mental challenges. I I was obviously locked at home a lot, so I decided to actually become a waiter during that time. I done waiting very early on in my in my teens, but I decided to become a waiter to kinda get myself out of the house so I could put my mental being in a better place. So at home, I wasn't so stressed and anxious and cooped up in the house. Being a waiter allowed me to get out of the house, socialize with people, it just gave me a better, like, headspace for myself. So I did that for about 8 months. As well as, obviously, it provided some sort of revenue for the family.Damien Moore [00:08:03]:
Not not obviously huge, but it gave me something to kind of keep going. So, I mean, that's how I pivoted during those times.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:09]:
You went through some challenging times at the very beginning. You moved into where you are today. Throughout your time in raising your daughter. It's not always going to be positive moments or easy moments. There's definitely challenges along the way. What's been the hardest part in being a father to a daughter?Damien Moore [00:08:27]:
So I think it's adapting to their personalities. They're, you know, they're little unique humans, and I got parented one way. My wife got parented another way. So for me, even those cultural differences from America and the UK, vastly different the way we were parented. So I've had to just adapt. And I've actually embraced the way my wife's parenting style, which is very, I would say, kind of open door policy, very family orientated. It's not to say that I wasn't brought up family orientated, but it's it's just a different style here, and I've actually really embraced it the way we've kind of oriented our child. Both on my wife's side and my and my side, we've kind of come from families with that suffer from depression and and anxiety, and we know this is hereditary.Damien Moore [00:09:06]:
So we we're kind of aware and very conscious about that with our daughter, what kind of traits will she pick up from that, and she is a very anxious toddler. From a very young age, she would withhold, and withholding is when children obviously don't have much control over anything is when they withhold going to the toilet. So withholding their poo, so it's that can be quite stressful for a toddler, you know. They go 2 or 3 days without going to the toilet. And as a parent, we have to start, you know, pivoting and taking care of this because it can get quite serious if there's not she doesn't relieve herself. So we noticed these traits very early on and we kind of read up about it and it's it's typical anxiety within toddlers. And to this day, there's traits we see today. She's very easily startled, for example.Damien Moore [00:09:44]:
So growing up and even like when she was 2, 3 years old, I work in the basement here at home sometimes. And if I just come up through the basement door, she'd easily be startled terrified, absolutely terrified, running, like screaming because a noise startled her. So we've had to really adjust the kind of how we parent her in a way that's kind of, I'd say, really conscious to that to her anxiety, and we make sure that she feels as safe as possible and that we're here. We're here for her. We're here to talk to her. We're here to listen to her. Just to understand those fears and kinda parent her in a way that's, not as I said earlier, not too controlling on her because she needs that control. She's like anxious, so she wants to control situations and she wants to kind of get through them in in her way and and manage it in her way.Damien Moore [00:10:24]:
And I think, you know, we have to learn from our kids as well. Even from a very early age, we adapt as parents based on our kids' personalities. And while she has these anxious moments, she's also just an absolutely beautiful soul. I mean, she's just a delight to be around. She's a lot of fun as well. She likes to dance and giggle and all that. So it's just managing those different personality traits very early on.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:44]:
So talk to me a little bit about mental health and some of the things that you just were talking about. The fact that, you know, you come from a family that has battled mental health issues. Your wife has as well. You're dealing with your own things that you are working through, whether it's things that you have had that you've brought with you through your own upbringing and your familial ties or the own your own issues that you're dealing with, and you're starting to see those things in your own child. Talk to me about what you've had to do thus far as you've worked with your own child to work through some of these? And what are some of the things that you think that you're going to have to do based on what you're seeing now and what you think may happen, seeing that she's only 4a half at this point?Damien Moore [00:11:33]:
Both my wife and I, we both have, as I said, family history in in kind of depression and anxiety. And I was raised around that as a as a young child, and, my parents got divorced when I was about 6 years old. And, you know, as a child, you're not really aware of what's happening at that age. But as an adult, I've kind of really started questioning it and talking to my dad who suffers from depression to get his side of the story. I wanna understand from him what he went through at literally my age now. You know, he went through a divorce. He had 3 boys. And I was just I wanted to understand the stresses and pressures that he was under because when I went through COVID, as I said, a new dad lost my job.Damien Moore [00:12:07]:
I had my own kind of battles at that time. So he was a great resource for me to talk to. He really kind of helped just explain things to me in certain ways that I was challenging my own self. So he was great to kind of be a a kind of a a person of of resource for me personally during some really difficult times. I think, you know, for our daughter, there are obviously child therapists out there that we, you know, we wanna potentially engage with at some point soon. We've noticed some of these behaviors have died down a little bit, like the the the startling doesn't happen as much now as it used to when she's 2 or 3 years old because some of the things that she just gets used to, her her surroundings and her environment. But we're aware that you know, we constantly talk, my wife and I, about these you know, about the kind of our upbringings and and how this may influence our daughter and and just very conscious and aware of her behaviors. And we're just lucky today, I think.Damien Moore [00:12:54]:
You know, mental health is so much more prominent and so much more spoken. There's more visibility around it today than there was when my parents were growing up. When I spoke to my dad, I remember him saying to me, if he was having a down day, people would just say nip it in the bud, get on with your day kind of thing. That was the attitude. But today, people are so much more conscious about it. You know, companies have better kind of mental health, kind of resources available. So we're definitely lucky in that instance that we can have that access to great resources. I myself have actually personally started therapy for the first time in the last couple of months.Damien Moore [00:13:23]:
I've never had therapy. I've never kind of felt the need of therapy. My wife's had therapy her entire life. So I've just wanted to kind of explore that for myself as an avenue just to kind of speak to someone else, speak to an independent individual that's not kind of part of, you know, my network of family and friends and not my wife's network of family and friends. And I've always just, you know, from the first session or 2, I've actually found it quite liberating just sharing stuff with someone I don't really know. And as I said, I've never done it before, so I'm kinda learning my own ways through therapy. And, you know, we'll tackle that with our daughter when we feel like we need to. We've got, obviously, her doctor we talk to a lot about.Damien Moore [00:13:56]:
We ask her a lot of questions about certain things that, you know, we've noticed, and she gives us great advice already. So, yes, we take it day by day for now.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:03]:
And it's all you can do. And I know that with all of those experiences, you got motivated. You got motivated to try to start having these conversations with other men, with other fathers, to be able to help individuals through a new venture called Dad's Daily Digest, the blog TikTok that you're trying to engage people to talk to people inspire people in different ways. Talk to me about Dad's Daily Digest Outside of what I just said, what were some of the impetuses for why you wanted to move in this way to be able to engage with other men in this way?Damien Moore [00:14:39]:
The real motivation, my uncle committed suicide when I was probably my early twenties. I've had a friend commit suicide as well through alcohol abuse. Again, I was in my mid twenties when that happened. So I've been exposed to suicide, and I know the effects it hap it has on families. And when COVID hit, I started seeing the suicide rates going up. You know, you read about it in the news, you see it, and it disproportionately affects men. And I think last year, I think it was about 50,000 people commit suicides in the US alone last year. I think 80% of those were men.Damien Moore [00:15:10]:
Now these statistics are alarming. And, you know, having gone through it with my uncle and knowing, you know, the pain and and it causes families is I wanted to create a platform of of sorts to, I guess, inspire people and also just maybe give tips and advice on life, having been through these experiences myself and knowing what it does to families. So I've started this, as you say, Dad's Daily Digest, where I wanted to share some of my own struggles I've gone through from my professional career to my personal life. And I said to myself, even if I just touch one person and inspire one individual from potential changing their mind on the way they go in life, that's all that matters to me. I'm not here to, like, change the whole world, but it's like I wanna make a little dent in that space. I wanna inspire men and be a resource of some sort of resource and maybe give tips and advice through that platform, and just to show that life is tough. I mean, we go through struggles, but you can persevere and you can really kind of rely on others. And I am very lucky.Damien Moore [00:16:10]:
I know I'm very lucky that I've got a great network around me. I've really got a supportive family. I've got a supportive wife, and I've got her family that support me. So I know I'm blessed to have that, and I know some people don't have that necessarily. So if they just reach out through a platform and just wanna get ask a question or have a concern, I wanna be someone there potentially to help them. I just you know, as I said, even just touching one person's life would be would mean a lot to me. I've just started creating this platform just to kinda get content out there and be a bit more of a voice in that space to hopefully inspire other men.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:41]:
Now you've just started this platform. You're starting to get words out there. What are you finding thus far in the conversations that you're having with people that you're interacting with?Damien Moore [00:16:49]:
It's been actually quite lovely. I've actually came to a few dads who have similar TikTok channels, and I think it's just relatable. We you know, obviously, each family is unique in the way they bring their their children, but there's so much we can relate to, so many similar funny situations, stressful situations that you go through being a parent. So it's nice to know that there's a community of us out there in that space, giving this kind of motivation, inspiration for others. So it's nice to know that you're not alone out there, kind of, trying to do this. There are other people out there. I mean, even yesterday, I posted a video. My daughter did this really touching thing, and I just had to share it in the moment.Damien Moore [00:17:24]:
I was taking her through to a Happy Meal at McDonald's, and we got approached by a homeless person at the window. Now I could see he really needed help, and he was actually you know, he didn't come too close to my window. He saw I had a young child, but he slowed a certain distance, and then he said, you know, I don't want money, I just want food. So I said, absolutely. What would you like me to get you? I'm putting the order in. He goes, just a burger and a bottle of water. So I said, absolutely. I'll get you a burger and a bottle of water.Damien Moore [00:17:46]:
And my daughter reached over to give him a dollar bill because she likes to pay the person now at McDonald's money, she likes to do the kind of transaction. So she had this dollar bill in her hand, she gave it to him, and then he brought him to tears and then he brought me to tears because I was like, this gesture was just so beautiful, and even that post alone has kind of really reiterated that people just how beautiful these little moments. I mean, these children are so innocent, and it's just you know, I then had a whole conversation with her about homeless people because she wasn't you know, she was like, who is that person, daddy? Like, what what is he doing? And, you know, she wasn't used to this interaction with with a homeless person. So I come out to explain to her that homeless people are unfortunate individuals that don't have a home. We and I said, we're really lucky. We go to a home. We have a warm bed to sleep in. We can shower.Damien Moore [00:18:30]:
And she even asked me, she goes, how does he shower? So, you know, she was really inquisitive about this individual. So I had to kind of, you know, explain to her, unfortunately, there are people out there that don't have homes and don't have families, and it's, you know, really tough on them. So and that's why I said to her. I said, your generosity was just so beautiful, Jessa, and it was so beautiful, and I just thanked her for that moment because I just, yeah, it got it nearly nearly brought me to tears. So I think, you know, and just seeing the the reaction to that video alone was just really nice, People kinda really sharing, like, their positivity around kind of that parenting and positivity around the child's behavior, and it's just great to see that there is this community out there for for people that that may need it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]:
It definitely warms your heart when you can see that and be able to be have that renewed sense of humanity that sometimes gets lost along the way. And sometimes we get lost in our own lives that it takes a child in the pure way that they see the world to be able to make us take a step back and say, Oh, yeah, you're right. I lost that along the way. And I got a good reminder today.Damien Moore [00:19:38]:
Exactly.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:39]:
So as you look at what you're doing right now, what you're putting out into the world, what you're trying to create, as you think about the future, where do you want this to go?Damien Moore [00:19:48]:
For now, if I just touch a few individuals' lives, that would mean the world to me. You know, I think from from a personal standpoint, I'd like to have a stronger voice in that community. And, I mean, I think the ultimate goal one day, I would love to become a a motivational speaker. As I said, I'm an extrovert. I love being around people. I love, you know, trying to share my positivity and energy. I I kind of absorb other people's energy, and I would like to, you know, hopefully one day turn that into me being out there and being a strong voice and just helping people on more of a larger scale than just, you know, kind of a small platform for now. So, yeah, that's essentially where I'd like to go one day.Damien Moore [00:20:22]:
Yeah.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]:
I love it. It. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Damien Moore [00:20:31]:
Sure. Yeah.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:32]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?Damien Moore [00:20:34]:
Beautiful.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:34]:
Now I know your daughter's only 4 and a half, but I'm gonna still ask this question. When was the time that you finally felt that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Damien Moore [00:20:42]:
I mean, even yesterday's moment was very touching. I guess when I see her sheer generosity and empathy and compassionate to other people. I've been a strong believer in actually raising my daughter around animals because of what that actually teaches children from a very young age. It teaches them responsibility, teaches them compassionate, empathy. Fortunately, it also teaches them about about death because we've had a couple of dogs die since she's been born and kind of explains to her what death is. But I think just seeing this beautiful girl through her life learnings and just seeing it kind of come out into the world to other people is a joy to see. So I think I take that as a success every day.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:19]:
Now if I was to ask your daughter, how would she describe you as a dad?Damien Moore [00:21:22]:
Probably say I'm quite silly. I like to do a lot of silly dancing with her. Ever since she was young, I I personally quite like my EDM music, and I like to get her into my DJs, so she's always kind of danced along to me. But I think also she probably I'm the one that's the slightly firmer one when it comes to consequences in the house. I think, you know, we all experience tantrums. We all experience that kind of naughty behavior. From about 3a half, 4 years old, she's been kinda testing the waters in terms of retaliation and testing, like, how far she can test her parents. So I probably am the firmer one compared to my wife.Damien Moore [00:21:56]:
I like to give more consequences if I if I have to. So I don't know if I should use that, but I hopefully I think it should lead with silliness and fun because, personally, I had a good upbringing, but I wasn't necessarily raised by a dad who was silly and very fine and engaging. I was raised by great parents, but I don't recall my childhood memories as being silly and, like, just goofing around a lot. So I've wanted to instill that a lot in my parenting as my own you know, being a dad to my daughter. I just want it to be, like, lots of silliness and embrace that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:27]:
And if you think about this in, let's say, 15 years, what do you want her to say then?Damien Moore [00:22:32]:
I hope she says that I've prepared her as best as pop as possible for the world. You know, I want her obviously to look up to me as as an inspiring figure in her life. I want her to feel that I've given her the most I possibly can in life. I've given her safety. I've given her a good upbringing. So, yeah, that they would be the things I'll dream of in terms of her saying to me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Damien Moore [00:22:53]:
I have to say my mom. Because just knowing some of the upbringings that my family members have been through, I've always kind of just really pushed myself to be a better person. And I think she's always been there as my person that I go to whenever I reach my lowest moments. I always call her. She's my, you know, she's kind of carried me through many, many struggling moments in life, and she will still ahead in the future. And she's just my go to person for that. And she's definitely been my inspiration in life and inspired me to be a better dad, for sure.Damien Moore [00:23:23]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things for people to think about, things to ponder, for people to consider for their own mental health and being able to do what they have to do. As you think about any father, no matter what their situation, what's one piece of advice that you'd want to give to every dad?Damien Moore [00:23:42]:
For me, personally, I've always liked to put things into perspective. I know we have to recognize our individual life and the stresses we deal with and not to ignore them. But at the same time, put things into perspective and just say to yourself, things could be so much worse. There's so much happening out there in the world where there are errands going through a lot harder things than you may be yourself. And I think it's important just to take a moment sometimes and just pause in that moment and say, do you know what? I'm blessed to have what I have right now. Like, I'm so thankful and share that gratitude and love to the people around you. And just know that it it can be so much tougher on other people in life. And I think just recognizing that and trying to instill that into your daily life a little bit, it's something I've always tried to live by just growing up. And I definitely share that kind of as my one kind of piece of advice to people.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:33]:
Well, Damian, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today, for sharing what you have gone through thus far, for sharing the resource that you're putting together. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?Damien Moore [00:24:46]:
Yeah. So the the Dads Daily Digest website is is dadsdailydigest.co. And there's, yeah, there's a way you can reach out to me there. And there's also a TikTok channel if you wanna engage through TikTok. And also, I mean, I have a LinkedIn as well. So you can type my name in Damien Moore Evans, and you'll find me on LinkedIn as well. So happy to people if they choose to.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:04]:
Well, Damien, thank you for being here today, and I wish you all the best.Damien Moore [00:25:07]:
Thank you so much, Christopher. I appreciate it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:09]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and power daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]:
We're all in the same boat And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen, get out and be the world to them. You're the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be. -
Family First: Embracing the Realities of Fatherhood
Fatherhood is a journey filled with joy, challenges, and countless learning moments. In our recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast,we had the pleasure of hosting Brian Piper and his daughter Libby. This engaging conversation shed light on the intricacies of fostering a strong father-daughter bond, emphasizing empathy, support, and mutual growth.
The Initial Steps: Embracing the UnknownBrian Piper candidly shared his initial reaction to fatherhood. Like many new fathers, Brian felt a mix of excitement and fear. He was initially terrified but quickly embraced the journey as a valuable learning experience. Understanding the emotional and intellectual differences between men and women was one of his primary concerns when raising his daughter, Libby.
Libby also offered her perspective on the various activities her dad encouraged her to try. From cheerleading and soccer to rock climbing and snowboarding, Brian’s support helped Libby find her passions and joy in unexpected places. Their shared skydiving experience stands out as a testament to his encouragement and her bravery.
Open Ears and Open Hearts: Listening Versus FixingA significant part of the episode focused on the challenges of raising daughters, especially the balance between listening and solving their problems. Brian highlighted the importance of listening without judgment and providing empathetic support, something often more required by daughters than sons.
Libby emphasized that sometimes she needs her dad to listen and provide empathy rather than immediate solutions to her problems. This approach has helped her feel supported and understood. Fathers must remember to ask if their daughters want advice or just a sympathetic ear at that moment, fostering better communication and stronger relationships.
Skydiving and Small Steps: Overcoming Anxiety TogetherLibby’s journey with anxiety and how her father has been there for her with unwavering support was another crucial discussion point. Brian has used techniques like walking her through worst-case scenarios to help alleviate her anxiety. This method allows Libby to process her emotions and face her fears more manageable.
The skydiving experience shared between them illustrates this dynamic beautifully. Despite her initial anxiety, Libby found joy and excitement in the activity, thanks to her father's encouragement and support. This shared adventure not only helped her overcome a significant fear but also strengthened their bond.
Thriving Amidst Technology: Discussing AI and Social MediaIn today’s digital age, navigating AI and social media is an inevitable part of parenting. Brian, with his expertise as a marketer and content expert, highlighted the ethical considerations and the need for open discussions about these technologies with children. Libby, coming from an environmental major background, shared her concerns about AI's potential negative uses, reflecting her thoughtful approach to the impact of technology on society.
These conversations around the dinner table, although sometimes challenging, are crucial for preparing children to make informed decisions about technology usage responsibly.
Finding Opportunities and Walking the Path TogetherLibby’s approach to seizing opportunities by breaking tasks into manageable steps is a valuable lesson in personal development. This method, akin to how Brian taught skydiving, emphasizes the importance of self-belief and recognizing personal capabilities.
Brian’s reflections on parenting six children underscore the significance of personalized attention, open communication, and equitable responsibility-sharing with his partner. The value of family dinners as moments of connection and fun further highlights his commitment to family values.
ConclusionIn wrapping up the episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis reiterated the importance of community and shared learning as vital tools in the journey of fatherhood. The insights from Brian and Libby Piper's experiences remind us to balance listening and fixing, support our daughters as they face their fears and challenges, and engage them in meaningful conversations about technology and personal growth.
Fatherhood, as stressed throughout the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, is not about finding a one-size-fits-all approach. It’s about being present, empathetic, and open to learning from our children and each other. With resources like the "Fatherhood Insider" and the vibrant "Dads with Daughters" community, fathers can find the support and guidance they need to raise strong, independent daughters.
For more insights and to join the conversation, visit fatheringtogether.org, and stay tuned for more empowering episodes on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with CASTMAGIC)
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I love being able to talk to you, talk with you, walk with you as we go down this path to be able to raise our daughters and to figure this out along the way, because there is no right way way to father. Every one of us is gonna do things a little bit differently, and that's okay. But what's most important is that we are open to listening, to learning, not only to listen and learn from our kids, but also to listen and learn from other fathers that are have gone before us, are going through it right now because we can learn a lot of things, a lot of tools that we can put into our own toolbox that we can then put into action. So that's why this podcast exists.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]:
It is here to help you. And every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that help you to be able to grab some of those tools for your toolbox. This week, we've got 2 new great guests that are joining us. Brian Piper and his daughter, Libby are with us today. And we're gonna be talking about their journey together as father and daughter, but also gonna be talking about some of the other experiences that that Brian's had as a father of 6 and more. So Brian, Libby, thanks so much for being here today.Brian Piper [00:01:42]:
Thanks so much for having us, Chris.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]:
It is my pleasure. Love being able to be here to talk to both of you today. And I always start off by turning the clock back in time. So I Brian, I wanna go all the way back. I wanna go back to the first moment that you found out you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?Brian Piper [00:01:57]:
I was terrified, really. I do a lot of things that, you know, get my, adrenaline going and put me out on the edge, but I really had no concept of what it was, you know, gonna be like to be a father and then to be a father of girl. It was very daunting, but, you know, I've always accepted challenges and kind of, you know, jumped head first into them my whole life. So I figured this would be a great learning experience.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:22]:
It definitely is a learning experience. And I know that I talk to a lot of dads that say what you just said in the sense that there's fear. And I think there's fear not only with becoming a father in general, but there's fear also in becoming a father to a daughter because it's an experience that we have not lived in many in for the most part and we can't we can empathize, but we can't always understand. But I guess as you think back and you think to the time that you've had with Libby and your other kids too, but as you think back to raising a daughter and that fear that you talked about, what was your biggest fear in raising a daughter?Brian Piper [00:02:55]:
Well, first of all, just making sure to to keep them alive. That was a key. But, just being able to understand them because I grew up with a brother. You know, I had a great relationship with my mother, but that's a very different relationship than you have with a child. And just knowing that women are very different than men emotionally and intellectually. And so I just wanted to make sure that I was gonna be able to connect with her and help her and, you know, help provide her the tools to make her a better person than I am.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:24]:
So let's talk about experiences. You said you wanted to build those experiences. And and having memories, building experiences is definitely important. You talked about being an adrenaline junkie and, you know, you and I have talked about that and the things that you enjoy doing, but I'm gonna turn this over first to Libby. Libby, I guess as you think about experiences that that you've had with your dad, what's been the most memorable experience that you've had thus far with your dad?Libby Piper [00:03:49]:
I think since I was young, he's always been, like, very encouraging to try everything, like, despite your interest level in it. So I've, like growing up I tried everything. I was put into like cheerleading, soccer. I have no athletic ability. I'm a theater kid and did not thrive in that situation. But he does a lot of things and sometimes that becomes an issue, but I've tried rock climbing and I love that and I don't know if I would have thought that I would have enjoyed that. Snowboarding, I've tried and there have been a lot of times in trying out these new things that at first I struggled a lot with them or like did not enjoy them at first. The first time he took me snowboarding, I cried and we ended up walking down the whole hill.Libby Piper [00:04:44]:
But now I love snowboarding and I go out on my own. I'm in the ski club at school. I skydive which is kind of shocking because I've always been pretty filled with fear. But he really just encourages me to try things that I wouldn't think I would enjoy. And now this year at school, I'm trying all these different clubs that I don't know if I'm gonna like them, but we'll see.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]:
And Brian, what was your most memorable experience?Brian Piper [00:05:09]:
Yeah. I mean, just doing experiencing all the activities and just watching the lights come on, you know, when when she finds something that she connects with or that she enjoys, you know, getting her involved in in theater and seeing her up on stage just glowing and, you know, just loving the audience and the reaction and the interaction. We've been skydiving together numerous times over the last year and a half, and, it's just so great to see her in in free fall just with a huge smile on her face and just having so much fun and just so excited. So that's the most encouraging part for me is just watching the lights come on and and things start to click, and she's like, I can do this.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:49]:
Now raising kids is not always easy, Brian. And there can be high points. There can be low points, and everything in between. And as you think back to raising your daughter, what was the hardest part in being a father to a daughter?Brian Piper [00:06:03]:
I think, you know, and this applies to, being married as well. It's listening without judging and also without trying to help. And I know you've talked about this on previous episodes as well. We wanna fix things. We wanna solve problems. And a lot of times, they just want someone to empathize and to listen and to know that they're going through challenging things. And when I start throwing out ideas, well, you could do this or you could do this. It's like, no.Brian Piper [00:06:27]:
I don't wanna do that. I just want you to know that I'm I'm experiencing anxiety or fear or pain, and, you know, I just want you to empathize with me. So that's a big difference between, you know, boys and girls. You mentioned we have 6 kids between my wife and I. There's 5 boys, 1 girl. So it's very different providing that parenting and that emotional support for girls is much more challenging, but also much more rewarding. Because you give the answer to the boys, and they're like, oh, okay. You know? And they go do it.Brian Piper [00:06:56]:
And you give it to to Libby, and and she thinks about it and processes it and comes back with her thoughts on it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:02]:
I don't know if I agree with you. Maybe that's a nice way of saying it.Brian Piper [00:07:05]:
Yeah. A lot of that.Libby Piper [00:07:06]:
Yeah. No. It happened just the other day. I think I can't remember. I was complaining about something. I don't remember what I was complaining about. But I vase I went to him and I I think my legs hurt or something. This was like 2 days ago, but I was like I don't feel good.Libby Piper [00:07:21]:
My legs hurt. And he's like well did you take something? I'm like no. Just just just tell me you're sorry. And he's like, I'm sorry you guys are. I'm like, thank you. That's all I wanted. He's like, I know.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:32]:
So Libby, give us some advice here because I think a lot of dads go right to the fixing, and that being able to be on the other opposite end when you're raising daughters and being able to hear and listen and not always fix is not always the go to modality that we go to. So as someone that has grown up with a father that likes to fix, what are some things that you might say to other dads that also do the same thing when it comes to connecting with their daughters?Libby Piper [00:08:07]:
I think it really depends on the situation and what you're trying to fix because sometimes I'll have a problem and I'm, like, completely shut down to it, and I don't think there's a solution, and I'm just, like, upset about it. And he'll come in and be like, well, you can do this. And I am not in the mood to change things. I am not in the mood to fix things. I can't process that right now. I don't wanna deal with that right now. Just don't fix things right now. But I think if I'm explaining a situation and he has ideas to fix things, I think just before shouting them out and before just being like, oh, here's the solution.Libby Piper [00:08:42]:
Here's why I have the answer to your problem. I think that's a big thing about it. It's like, oh, I have the answer to your no. Do you do you know the problem in its entirety or do you you're just wanting to help. You just wanna make it better and I know that. But I think before you give me the solution that you have, maybe ask me if I'm open to hearing solutions or like if I'm ready to hear a solution. Because a lot of times I'll say 8 times that time. The solution he gives me is very helpful, but I'm just not always open to hearing it in that moment.Libby Piper [00:09:14]:
So I think that the solution is helpful, but I'm just not always ready to hear it at that moment. So sometimes I need a second of empathy just before I hear the solution.Brian Piper [00:09:25]:
And you've given that advice on your show before, Chris, is to ask sometimes. I do this with my I find myself doing this with my wife now more too. It's like, do you want a solution? Do you want some, you know, ideas about ways to solve this or not? So that's been very helpful from the podcast for me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:39]:
Well, I appreciate that. And and I can't take credit for that because a previous guest did bring that up to me, an author from out on the West Coast and she said in her practice of being a psychologist and working with dads, that's one of the pieces of advice that she gave is to talk to your daughters from the very beginning and saying, is this a listening conversation or a fixing conversation? And I wish I had started that at a very young age with my daughters. Because if I went and said that to my daughters now, they'd probably look at me like I was an alien and been like, what have you been reading? Because that's just weird. Now doesn't mean that it still can't work, like you said, Brian, in trying to incorporate some new language into the processes that you have with your own wife, but you may still get some strange looks along the way. And that's okay. That's okay. It's a process of, of learning and getting better. So that's what this is.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:33]:
That's what it's all about. Now, I know you both just talked about the fact that some of the memories that you've had, you've been able to do some things that may have pushed you, Libby, but also things that you enjoy doing Brian. So let's talk about the skydiving because I know Libby, you said skydiving was not something you ever thought that you would do, but that you ended up doing it with your dad. So talk to me about that experience. What led you up to wanting to do that when you said that you were fearful and that you were willing to go and do it and what was the experience like?Libby Piper [00:11:04]:
I really grew up around skydiving. So I grew up with a pretty good, like, understanding of the safety of it. Whereas other people look at it and they're like, oh my god. What are you doing? You're gonna die. And I grew up watching him skydive and obviously he's a pretty big role model so obviously I was gonna try it. There's there's kind of this like expectation, I think, with all of us all of us kids that we will try skydiving. Some of us have so far and some of us haven't. But I knew I was gonna try it at least.Libby Piper [00:11:35]:
But I have dealt with anxiety a lot before and just like that spiral thinking. And I remember being in the car with him on the way to AFF, which was like my skydiving training. And I was gonna do my first jump all by myself and I was so scared because I was like, who is letting me do this? What how am I just like allowed to go and jump out of a plane on my own, just responsible for myself? How is that possible? I do not have the capability to do this. This is not something I can do. And we, like, slowed things down and we would, like, talk through all my emergency stuff and, he's been doing this forever. Mostly. And it was kind of just like that first push. And I feel like that's typically how I work for the most part.Libby Piper [00:12:31]:
It's like that anxiety leading up to the thing is always so much worse than actually doing it because I do it now and I love it. And always in the plane, I'm always anxious and I will turn to my dad and I will walk him through my entire jump step by step before we go and get out of the plane because I'm still anxious about it. Like I still realize that it's not a completely safe activity but I feel a lot more safe definitely because I can do it with him. And I think it's an even more important hobby to me because I can do it with him. I think that's one of my favorite things about it is that it's something that is really special for both of us and I love that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:11]:
So one of the questions that I would ask because you were just were talking about dealing with anxiety, and I think that a lot of kids today deal with mental health issues in their own ways, whether it's anxiety, whether it's depression. There's there's a lot of things that they that compound upon themselves, and parents sometimes are at a loss to how best to support their children as they're struggling through things like that. And I don't know if you're willing to talk about it, but I would love to get your perspective on for someone that has dealt with anxiety and mental health issues in that way, how has your dad supported you through that? What has he done well? And what should other fathers do to be able to support their kids if they are struggling with similar such issues?Libby Piper [00:13:59]:
I think, like, we were talking about earlier is just one of the big thing is, like, listening and just like being quiet for a second and like sitting with those thoughts. And then he typically helps me realize that most of those thoughts I'm like creating for myself. Like I'm creating that anxiety for myself. So we'll go through in a lot of situations, not skydiving because that's a little bit of a worst case scenario there. But I've done public speaking and I'll get really anxious beforehand and he'll talk me through. He's like, okay, what is the worst possible outcome? Like, okay, it's this. He's like, is that really that bad? No. Okay.Libby Piper [00:14:36]:
So what's the best possible outcome? This. That's pretty great and so it's kind of finding that middle ground. What do you think is the worst thing? Do you think that is actually going to happen? Most of the time it's not. Most of the time that's a pretty small chance and it's kinda just like working backwards from your anxiety and then getting yourself back to that clear headspace which is is sometimes a really hard thing to do. But I think the longer you sit with it and the longer you talk about it and the more, like, interested in listening you are, the easier that is to kind of rewind yourself.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:12]:
So it sounds like your dad's been able to provide you with a lot of tools, a lot of things to be able to not only process things, but also to set yourself up for the path that you're on now. What are some of the things that that Brian did to be able to help you to not only get on that path, but to become the woman that you're becoming today?Libby Piper [00:15:33]:
I think one of the biggest things, again, like I said earlier, is to try everything. To just, like, put yourself out there so you can find opportunities for other things. He's big about finding opportunities and opportunity seeking. And I think now for me, that's a big part of who I am. I will go out and look for certain things and find situations that are gonna be the best for me, find the people who are gonna be the best for me. So I think I'm pretty good at looking for those opportunities and recognizing them. I think the anxiety and dealing with the anxiety is a big thing. It was hard for me at school, and the transition from high school to college last year was really difficult for me.Libby Piper [00:16:19]:
So he gave me the advice, him and my stepmom, to just take things one step at a time instead of like looking at the day as like, just one day. It's just like, okay, we're gonna get out of bed now. We're gonna step out of the bed, and then we're gonna get dressed, and then we're gonna walk out of my door, do this, do this, like very very breaking it, like breaking it down so much that it's no longer this big scary unknown and it's, oh, I've walked downstairs before. Okay. I can do that. Let's walk down the stairs. And doing that to, like, get yourself out of bed and to find those opportunities.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:55]:
And, Brian, reflect on what Libby just said there. What does that mean to you in what you're hearing?Brian Piper [00:17:00]:
Yeah. It's, you know, it's the same thing we do when we're teaching someone to skydive is you have to break it down into just the individual steps so they're not looking at the whole like, they don't keep in the front of their mind that they're gonna be leaving the plane and, you know, just now you're just taking one more step and one more step, and then you're, you know and I think along that whole process, just encouraging them to believe in themselves and to understand, like, that they have more capability than they think they do, and their self doubt is preventing them from seeing how capable and how strong and how innovative and intelligent they are. But once they start doing that and they start learning, I mean, kids are just sponges. They just soak up knowledge so quickly. And once they get a hold of something, you know, then they just grow so quickly. So I think that's important to to keep the focus really small on individual things that are easy to accomplish. And then that way, it leads towards accomplishing those bigger goals and finding those opportunities.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:02]:
Now, Brian, you mentioned that you've got 6 kids between you and your wife with 5 boys, 1 girl. There's a lot of stuff happening in that household. And so I guess reflect on being a father of 6, and I know you're a busy guy as well. So talk to me about balance and how have you been able to balance being a professional, a father, and everything else that you want to be in your life and being able to show up and being able to be present still in the lives of your kids?Brian Piper [00:18:35]:
Well and I think so much of that is really comes down to who who you've chosen to be your partner Because I know my wife is a huge advocate for transparency and honesty. And, you know, whenever things start getting out of balance or, you know, if I'm traveling too much for work or if I'm doing too many activities on the weekends and not doing enough family stuff, we have a very open communication network between all of us in the family where we can just say to each other, you know, we really need you here for this, or, you know, you're doing a little more of this than you should be. And I think just having that communication, because I get in my head, oh, I can do everything. And I have passed that on to my children who I can do all of it. I can do all the things and be very active. And and sometimes someone just has to be able to say, you may be overextending yourself. You may be taking on too much. Think about what you can bring into balance by saying no to some things.Brian Piper [00:19:33]:
I think having that open communication and being able to talk about things. So when people feel like they're being they're not getting as much time as they would like, you can talk about that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:43]:
And talk to me also about with 6 kids. You've had 6 different personalities, 6 different individuals with 6 different needs. And I'm not even talking about your wife because that's number 7, but let's talk about your kids. And how did you, as they have been growing up, build those unique relationships with each one of them that you have to do as you are parenting.Brian Piper [00:20:08]:
Yeah. And I think a lot of that comes down to making a point of spending time with each of them individually and having that one on one connection, whether it's, you know, I mean, teaching them how to drive 1 on 1, you're in the car with them for hours at a time. By finding opportunities to talk to them just about their life in general and ask them questions. And not just, like, trying to get into what they're doing every minute of the day questions, but really asking them, well, you know, how did that make you feel, And and why did you like that? And, you know, things that get deeper into kind of their emotions and their thoughts versus just, you know, what they've been up to in their activities. But, yeah, it's definitely a challenge when you, you know, switch from, you know, 1 on 1 to zone defense. You know? There's only so much that you can do. We really make a point of trying to have family dinners where we all sit down and we all share. And, you know, those are some of my favorite times.Brian Piper [00:21:08]:
We're just just laughing and having fun and being goofy and silly with each other. I think that's critical as well.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:14]:
Now professionally, I know, Brian, you've been working as a marketer, as a content expert, as someone that really knows artificial intelligence working within higher education, at this point. And and I know you've got a brand new podcast that's talking about AI in higher education as well. And I wanna talk a little bit about social media, AI, and parenting as well because as a con as someone that has been working in this area, I'm sure you have some thoughts about there's a lot of concerns right now about social media, social media use, incorporating that, or having kids being able to be having that as a part of their lives, but then also with AI now and incorporating that into school and good case usage, and when can they use it, when can't they use it. And it was a lot to unpack there. But as you think about the work that you're doing to aid higher education and in people with these type of struggles that they're having in their own organizations. As you think about as a parent and as we're struggling with these, what do you say what would you say to other parents as we're looking at social media or AI and talking to our kids about these things and helping them to maneuver in this ever changing space?Brian Piper [00:22:29]:
Well, I think I think you actually just said it, Chris, is is talking to your kids about these things. Because, you know, among our six different kids, we have wide ranges of social media usage. We have wide ranges of thoughts about AI. As you know, I'm a big proponent of AI, but my conversations with Libby make me think very, carefully about the ethical uses of AI. I mean, there's some great ways that it can help us to be more human and more authentic and not just replace, you know, tasks that we're doing or get rid of jobs that we have that actually lead to more complicated jobs. If we have AI doing everything that entry level lawyers do, how are we gonna get more experienced lawyers who are gonna be able to do the more complicated things that AI can't do? And that's the same in in higher ed and in research and every job field. So it's really about trying to understand their opinions and their thoughts and not just dismiss those, but really think about, yeah, you got a good point there, and we shouldn't be doing this with these tools. And, you know, these tools do cause a lot of anxiety and stress and social issues.Brian Piper [00:23:40]:
So let's look at how we can use this technology in a a practical way, but also in a ethical, moral way that's gonna elevate humanity and not just make us lazy people with it sit around and let the robots do all the work.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:54]:
And, Libby, as you hear your dad talk about that, what is your reaction, and what would you say to parents?Libby Piper [00:24:01]:
I think he kinda hit the nail on the head. I think all of my siblings and I have very different opinions on these things. And like he said, some of us use social media more, some of us use it less. Some of us are really interested in how AI works and some of us just find it like very scary and I find it more scary. I feel like there's a lot of negative uses. So I think that most of our conversation around AI is I'm afraid of this because of x y z, and this is why it scares me, and this is why it's not all like, oh, this is cool that these people have, like, a high functioning robot in their house. Like, this is a little scary. This is a little, like, apocalyptic almost and it freaks me out. Especially like being like an environmental major see a lot of scenarios that end badly and so that's hard for me to come to terms with or a lot of our conversation around the dinner table will be about AI and so it's sometimes like hard for me toLibby Piper [00:24:56]:
listen to around the dinner table will be about AI. And so it's sometimes like hard for me to listen to that and be like, oh yeah, this is great. Oh yeah, let's keep talking about this because I'll be sitting over there. Oh, this is a little scary. But I think we do a pretty good job of talking about this and we were just in the car the other day and I was telling him like, oh, I don't think this is ethical. Actually taking it in and I can see him actually taking it in which makes me feel more validated and makes me feel like I'm not just like being crazy about it, which is very helpful to me. So I think he's pretty good about listening to how we all feel about it. And to my brothers who are like, oh, wait, tell me more about this.Libby Piper [00:25:34]:
Like, tell me how I can use this. And he's pretty good about seeing our individual point of views.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]:
Well, there's so many ways in which AI touches our lives that some people don't even realize. So I've been having conversations at my own workplace about the use of AI in applying to college. And the questions that arise are you've get you've got some people that say you can't use it at all in the application. But then I say, well, what about Grammarly? Is someone able to grammar check what they've written and use Grammarly for that? What about spell check? That's an AI. You know, there's different pieces like that that makes it very gray and the ethical concerns are out there. And I think that it is important to have these conversations with our kids to be able to help them to think about things and make their own decisions about it in the end. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I typically ask questions of dads, but because I've got both of you here, both of you are gonna get some questions. So first and foremost, Libby, in one word, what is fatherhood?Libby Piper [00:26:41]:
I'd say encouragement.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:42]:
And Brian? Rewarding. Now, Libby, when was a time that you would say that Brian succeeded at being a father to you?Libby Piper [00:26:51]:
I think my mind just goes back to skydiving really and being able to share those experiences together. And I think when I was telling him about my anxiety, he told me that he feels anxiety about it too. Like, it's not just me. He still feels it at how many years have you been skydiving?Brian Piper [00:27:12]:
34 years.Libby Piper [00:27:13]:
34 years of skydiving. He still feels that anxiety, and it's a completely valid feeling. He never invalidates my feelings. He always tells me, like, it's understandable that you feel this way, but you don't need to. And so I think that for all the time that I'm fearful, he's a very good father and helps me get out of that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:31]:
And, Brian, when was the time that you feel that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Brian Piper [00:27:36]:
Anytime I watch my kids face challenges and then make good decisions or overcome things, and particularly with Libby last summer, 2 summers ago, when she was studying in Spain, she was so far away. It's her first, like, time kind of really on her own. And, you know, we were calling each other, and she was calling me, and she was super sad, and she was homesick, and she was feeling a lot of anxiety. But we were just able to talk through it. I listened a lot. I did give her some tried to give her some helpful resources that she could use. And I knew that if she just hung on and just waited it out and just let herself kind of adapt to the situation, that she was fully capable of turning the situation around, which she did. And she ended up having a fantastic time and loved it so much that she wants to go back.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:25]:
Now, Libby, if I was to talk to you and your brothers, how would you describe your dad?Libby Piper [00:28:31]:
I'd say motivated or encourages us to, like, motivate ourselves, and I think we could all agree.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:38]:
Now, Brian, who inspires you to be a better dad?Brian Piper [00:28:41]:
My mom and my wife, for sure, and then my father as well, and and mostly my kids. It's means everything to me to watch them doing well and to watch them have fun, and it's great.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:52]:
Now we've talked about a lot of different things, things within your own relationship, things that you both learned in the relate in the in the fatherhood journey that, Ryan, that you're on, and and I'm gonna say that through the childhood that you've had, Libby, into adulthood now. Libby, if there was one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad, what would that be?Libby Piper [00:29:11]:
Find ways to individually connect with your daughter and to really seek out one on one time and to just genuinely spend as much time as you can together because that time creates memories and just creates a general oneness for each other. And I tell everyone, my dad is, like, my best friend, and I just really enjoy spending time with him and doing things with him. So I think that makes our relationship a lot better.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:39]:
And Brian?Brian Piper [00:29:39]:
Yeah. I'd say just enjoy every minute of it and laugh and have fun, and it's gonna change so fast. And, you know, they're gonna be off on their own before you know it. But also set goals and give yourself priorities so that you're you know, while you're having fun, you're still always taking those small steps towards a bigger goal that you've set for yourself.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:00]:
Well, I appreciate both of you being here today. Brian, Libby, thank you for your time, for sharing your journey. I know it is not over. It it continues on a day to day basis. If people wanna find out more about you, Brian, where should they go?Brian Piper [00:30:15]:
Go to brianwpiper.com, or you can find me on most social channels at Brian w Piper.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:20]:
Well, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here, and I wish you both the best.Brian Piper [00:30:24]:
Thanks so much for having us, Chris. This was great.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:26]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:24]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best dad you can be. -
In a heartwarming episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we speak with Brent Dowlen, a dedicated father and the voice behind The Fallible Man podcast. Brent shares his heartfelt journey of fatherhood, underscoring the value of prioritizing family, embracing transparency, and finding personal purpose.
The Blessing of FatherhoodDiscovering Love with Daughters
Brent Dowlen recounts the heart-stopping moment of holding his first daughter for the first time. He admits that he, like many fathers, was overwhelmed with joy and a touch of terror. "It's real now. This little life is dependent on me," he shares, capturing the duality of excitement and responsibility that comes with fatherhood. He never knew the gender of his children until birth, emphasizing that his main hope was simply for a healthy child.
Fears and Aspirations
Despite his extensive background in youth ministry, Brent was not immune to the fears that accompany fatherhood. His primary concern was setting an exemplary standard, knowing that his daughters would one day seek partners who reflect his character. This realization spurred a significant personal transformation. Brent openly discusses the fears of not living up to the high bar he set and the journey he has undergone to become the best version of himself.
Embracing TransparencyOwning Mistakes and Building Trust
Brent emphasizes transparency and honesty with his children. He candidly shares stories of his past mistakes and life experiences, adapting the depth of these dialogues to his daughters' developmental stages. This approach, he believes, nurtures trust and resilience in his daughters. "Kids will cling to transparency," Brent says. By owning up to his mistakes and maintaining honesty, he sets a robust foundation of trust and respect in his family.
Handling Pain Together
Brent's parenting style includes teaching his daughters practical skills to navigate physical and emotional pains. He recounts holding his daughter during her shots, teaching her to breathe through the pain—an approach he values highly. This practice not only builds resilience but also demonstrates his unwavering support and presence during difficult moments.
The Dynamics of Different PersonalitiesUnique Bonds with Each Child
Recognizing and responding to the unique personalities of his daughters is another core aspect of Brent's parenting philosophy. His older daughter, who shares his passion for activities, bonds with him through early morning walks and fishing trips. On the other hand, his younger daughter cherishes snuggles and quiet chats. Brent's ability to adapt to their distinct needs strengthens his relationship with each child. "Part of me going for walks in the morning has to do with me trying to stay somewhat healthy. Part of it is I wouldn't trade that time for anything," says Brent, highlighting the precious one-on-one times.
The Fallible Man: A Journey to Better SelfInspiration Behind the Podcast
Driven by a desire to impact lives positively, Brent launched "The Fallible Man" podcast in 2020. Initially rooted in his background in ministry, his motivation evolved as he sought ways to mentor and guide men, especially those without positive male role models. The podcast strives to redefine masculinity, focusing on self-improvement and purposeful living rather than physical attributes.
Major Takeaways for Men
Reflecting on over 300 episodes, Brent's key takeaway is the critical need for men to discover their unique purpose. "All men were born for a purpose. You inherently have worth because you're a person," he notes. Living in alignment with this purpose, accompanied by humility, paves the way for personal growth and clarity in life's decisions. Brent asserts true masculinity lies in purpose, mission, and authenticity, rather than stereotypical physical traits.
Fatherhood Insights and AdviceLiving for Priorities
The podcast episode wraps up with Brent sharing a piece of sage advice: "20 years from now, your boss won't care about how many hours you worked. Your children will never ever ever forget that they were your priority." This encapsulates the essence of Brent's parenting philosophy—being present and making your children feel valued above all else is a lasting legacy of fatherhood.
For those keen to learn more about Brent Dowlen and dive deeper into his insights, visit falliblemanpodcast.com. Brent's extensive work aims to help men navigate their journey of self-improvement, ultimately making a positive impact on their families and communities.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript made by CASTMAGIC)
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, you and I have an opportunity to be able to talk, to walk this path that we're walking to be able to raise our daughters into those strong, independent women that we want them to be. And I love that we're able to have these conversations because each of us is on our own journey. However, we don't have to do this alone. And it's so important that we surround ourselves with other people with different experiences that can share those experiences with each other. And then we can learn from them. So showing up today is part of the battle.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]:
You need to show up. You gotta show up for your kids, but you also gotta show up for yourself and you have to be willing to learn because none of us have the perfect playbook when it comes to raising our kids. We have to be open to hearing, listening, and learning from other dads because you know what? They probably have some things they can share. And that's important. It's really important that we're able to learn and grow from each other in that way. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different dads from with different experiences that are able to share those experiences with you so that you can add some new tools to your own toolbox. And today we've got another great guest with us today. Brent Dowlen of The Fallible Man podcast is with us today, and I'm really excited to be able to have Brent with us.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]:
Brent is a father of 2 daughters, and I'm really excited to get to know him a little bit more. Let you get to know him a little bit more and learn a little more about his own fatherhood journey. Brent, thanks so much for being here today.Brent Dowlen [00:01:57]:
Chris, thanks for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. I don't get to talk about being a daddy, a daughter, daddy very often.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]:
Well, I'm excited to have you on. And what I wanna do is I wanna turn the clock back in time again. And I know you've got 2 daughters, so I'm gonna go all the way back. You said you have a 10 year old and a 12 year old. So I want to go back. Maybe let's say it's 13 years, might be 12 and a half years. But I want to go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to to a daughter. What was going through your head?Brent Dowlen [00:02:21]:
Well, Chris, I didn't actually know I was gonna have a daughter until she was born. My wife and I went the old fashioned route with both our children, had no idea what we were having because I determined a long time ago that I was just hoping for a healthy kid. So many dads find out right off the bat there's something wrong with their kid, and and that's such a hard reality. So my wife had on the side, and we were just glad if our kid was healthy, then we had already won, and it didn't really matter what it was. So but the doctor put my daughter in my arms for the first time. I did the full tilt thing. I was in the delivery room, and I cut the umbilical cord. And, man, I wish I don't know that there are words for that moment when they put your first child in your arms.Brent Dowlen [00:03:01]:
We were a little terrified. My daughter was 3 and a half weeks early, and she was very small. And right off the bat, like, I'm a fairly big guy. I'm 6 foot. I've lifted weights most of my life. And so I'm I'm a fairly husky, big fella. And I was so terrified when they put this beautiful little thing in my hands, and she wasn't the length of my forearm. And I was just, like, looking at this little thing going, oh, wow.Brent Dowlen [00:03:25]:
It's real now. This little life is dependent on me, and I'm terrified and thrilled all at the same time.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:31]:
So talk to me about that fear because I've talked to lots of dads and a lot of dads say they have fear. Not only fear of just being a father, but especially when it came to being a father of a daughter, sometimes there's fear that is different than having a son or in just becoming a father in general. What would you say has been your biggest fear in raising your daughters?Brent Dowlen [00:03:55]:
That I could live up to setting the bar high enough. From the moment I first looked at my oldest, Abby, I thought I've gotta get it together, man. Because so I have a background in working with kids and youth ministry, particularly in church. To youth minister, I grew up in the church working with children's groups. I was I taught children's bible church and all that stuff growing up. And from the time I was probably in junior high, I started working with younger kids. And it's interesting working with other people's kids, but then all of a sudden, this is a real moment because you've seen mistakes other parents have made. Right? And everybody thinks they have a clue until right? Everybody has an opinion about parenting until you have your own children.Brent Dowlen [00:04:35]:
And then you're like, wow. What a jerk I was. But I had this dawning fear. I was like, how can I possibly become enough, fast enough? Because I knew that my daughters are gonna find a guy just like me. And that terrifies me because I was not a great guy my whole life. And so immediately this fear of how can I live up to setting the bar high enough that one day my daughter's gonna bring home a guy that's not a total dirtbag? Because I know, like, I was not the prize to bring home for some dads. I'm I'm sure I made some dads a little bit grayer, a little bit older. So that was the big fear.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]:
Talk to me about that because you went through a transition for yourself. You talked about the fact that you were not always the prize to bring home, that you weren't the model man for yourself and for others, let's say. At some point, your daughters may find that out. And have you thought about that? And what are you going to say to your daughters about who you were versus who you are now?Brent Dowlen [00:05:40]:
You know, Chris, actually, this conversation, I've started really early with my children. We have been very transparent with the way we raise our kids. Like, my my children, I have scars all over my body. Like, I have I have found every way to hurt myself along the way. Right? So I have all these scars all over my body. I I lived very fast paced, lots of accidents, lots of mistakes, lots of injuries to prove it over the years. And so my daughters love to hear the stories about the scars. Right? They'll pick a random scar.Brent Dowlen [00:06:07]:
They don't remember the story from. Or and so I've been very upfront the whole time when my daughter's gone. Yeah. I was stupid. I I made some horrible choices. This was one of those dumb things where God smiled on me and I lived through it regardless of how dumb it was at the moment. And so I've tried to be, of course, age appropriate. Right? We haven't gone into some of the dirtbag choices I've made along the way.Brent Dowlen [00:06:31]:
But as it has become more age appropriate, I'm very open to talking to my children about mistakes I've made and about choices I made along my life. And I'm very quick to own up to this was a bad choice. Like, I was in a bad place and making really bad choices. I got into drugs and alcohol for a while and made some poor choices there. And so I've been very forthright about that because one of the things I did take in from being a youth minister into being a dad was kids will cling to transparency. You you can't outlive everything you've ever done. And so many people lie to kids throughout their whole life that you don't have to be perfect. But if you can be honest, if your kids can see that you are honest with them and that you don't pretend to have all the answers, that you're not perfect, that you make mistakes, I'm quick to apologize for things, then there's that that they cling to you because they know if nothing else in your life and their lives, you're real.Brent Dowlen [00:07:32]:
I'm the one who gets to hold my children during shots and stuff like that. I have their whole life. I remember going to get shots from my oldest and she said, daddy, is it gonna hurt? I said, yeah, baby, it's gonna hurt, but it's only gonna hurt for a minute. And I'm right here with you and we're gonna breathe through it like you and I have practiced because I was already teaching her how to breathe through pain before that. I've always been very quick because I have racked up the injuries to teach them this is this is how we get through it. We breathe deep. We stay calm. We focus on our breathing.Brent Dowlen [00:08:00]:
And so I held her arms against her chest and it hurt for a second. And then within a couple of breaths, it was gone. Right? But there was no, oh, oh, it's just a little, you know, none of that nonsense. Just this is who we are. And it's been it's been effective for me so far.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:18]:
You know, you talked about that fear that you had at the very beginning. And in raising your daughters and raising kids is not always easy. There's going to be ups and downs and they're gonna throw your curve balls along the way and you're gonna have to learn and kind of be able to pivot as you move along. What's been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter?Brent Dowlen [00:08:43]:
I have a very logic based outlook on life and approach to things. I I won't say I'm closed off emotionally, but I have lived through some really dark spots in my life over the years. And so softening up from time to time because I don't want to teach them not to deal with their emotions, but it's also hard sometimes for me to realize, wait, we're processing an emotion now. I need to let this happen. I need to let them feel that and not try and make it okay right away. And sometimes I'm bad at recognizing those things because I deal with a lot of emotional stuff at a very, just logical ones and zeros. My brain is very quick to go. Okay.Brent Dowlen [00:09:28]:
I'm experiencing and feeling this is a reaction to something. Is it gonna help me right now? Is it not gonna help me right now? If it's not gonna help me right now, I shut it down very quickly until there's a better time to deal with it. I still will go back and deal with that, but I look at it from a very exploded diagram view. I start analyzing it immediately and breaking down what's going on, and what I need to do to adjust instead of feeling it and experiencing it. I tend to analyze through it and process things that way. And so with daughters, they're gonna feel things. Your children have very different personalities. My 12 year old, she's like me, she wants to carry the weight of the world on her shoulders.Brent Dowlen [00:10:06]:
And so learning to understand when she's processing something, as opposed to my newly 10 year old, who she's very emotions are on the sleeve. Right? So learning to recognize their emotional needs and responses has been probably one of the bigger pain points for me because it's very easy for me to go and it's not a, I'm a guy thing. I've always been that way. Like, I was a klutzy kid. I had a lot of sinus issues. And so my depth perception was skewed when I was congested. And so I had already had stitches multiple times by the time I was 6. Like, I've been beating myself up for a long time.Brent Dowlen [00:10:45]:
My head looks like a topographical map. And so I learned very early to sort the fear and the emotion out of situations. Sometimes just for the sake of survival. I had to deal with a couple moments of if I lose it now, if I can't stay focused and clear, I'm gonna die before I can get to help. And so I've been this way for a very long time, and it's very different with daughters because, yep, you're gonna experience your emotions and their emotions and the emotions they inflict on everybody else.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:14]:
You know, you talked about the fact that kids are different, and they have different personalities. And when you add more than one kid to the mix, you gotta deal with it. And you've already talked about the fact that one of your kids wears her emotion on her sleeves, the other one wears it on their shoulders. And you have to be able to show up for both types of kids, both personalities. You have to build those unique relationships with each and try to find that common ground. Talk to me about that. How have you been able to build that those unique bonds with each of your kids, even though they're very different personalities, very different people, and you have to treat them differently in that way?Brent Dowlen [00:11:56]:
That's honestly one of the fun parts, I think, about being a dad, girl dad. So my oldest, we process things. She processes things much closer to the way I do. So in learning to deal with her and and her emotional needs, I found she wants to get involved with things. Right. So we go for walks. Like she gets up with me at 4, 4:30 in the morning and we go walk 2 miles on a regular basis. And that is how she connects with me.Brent Dowlen [00:12:25]:
And really that one on one time she wants to connect and walk, but not be, it's our own doing. My wife was a tomboy. And so both of us would actually tend to go to the male characteristic of dealing with emotions and communicating and that's side by side as opposed to face to face. And so Abby is much more likely to talk to me while we're out walking or she likes to fish. I hate fishing. I suck at fishing, but I have learned to go fishing because my 12 year old loves to go fishing. So we go fishing regularly. I got all the good fishing gear.Brent Dowlen [00:12:58]:
My brother and I took him camping when they were a couple years younger, and they had such a great time. He's a big mountain guy. Like, he's mister mountain kinda thing. So he took him fishing and she's been fishing ever since. And we got back from that trip and I went, okay. And I went to Walmart and I found a nice older gentleman on the fishing aisle. And I said, I don't know anything about fishing, but my daughter likes it and I wanna be able to take her. So what do I need to know? And he had a great time teaching me what I need to know to take her fishing.Brent Dowlen [00:13:25]:
It's side by side. It's while we're fishing. It's while we're walking. That's how she wants to process. And she does better. Like, she has a better outlook. She stays more positive. She processes things more if I keep her doing things like that.Brent Dowlen [00:13:38]:
So part of me going for walks in the morning has to do with me trying to stay somewhat healthy. Part of it is I wouldn't trade that time for anything Cause that is solid gold time. The youngest one, she wants to cuddle still. At 10, she is very her safe place and both of them to this day at 10 and 12. Like I had both of them, one on each side of me last night, just wrapped under my arms on the couch because daddy is still the safe place. I'm loving that part of being a dad that they're still at 10 and 12, that's where they wanna be. When they're tired, when they're exhausted, they wanna be right up next to me. But my 10 year old, she wants to be much more snuggly when she's processing stuff.Brent Dowlen [00:14:15]:
She needs the quiet. She needs the face to face. She just wants to be held and listened to. She went with me to run an errand the other day and talked. We drove an hour. The closest Home Depot is like 45 minutes away from me. So she talked all the way there and all the way back and told me about these books she's reading. And I loved listening to her talk about it because as she's talking about those books, she's talking about things she read in those books that she wants to understand, that she's identifying with.Brent Dowlen [00:14:47]:
And so there, I hear about it with her, but then it's afterwards in the face to face moments, in the quiet moments when it's just us that she wants to dig into that stuff. So I feel like winning because my kids wanna talk to me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:00]:
I love that. And it changes as they get older, but it's so important when you have those opportunities to take advantage of them, especially as they're young. But even as they get older, if they're willing to give you the time, you take it. Because as they get older, they're gonna pull away a little bit more. And if you've built those strong relationships now, it's what's going to pave the way for the future.Brent Dowlen [00:15:23]:
I'm actually really excited about the future. Like, everybody's like, just wait till they're teens. I spent 20 years of my life working with teens. Like, that's my forte. It was this this when they're young and can't communicate, that drove me nuts as dad. Like, that was the hardest part about being a dad was when they're too little to tell you what's hurting or what's making them feel bad or what's like, I was losing my mind. I punched a hole in the wall one day because it's like, oh, right. I felt so powerless, but I'm looking forward to the teen years just because it's like, I understand that age group and that it's gonna be exciting.Brent Dowlen [00:15:57]:
My oldest is gonna make me old really quickly.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:59]:
I tell people that the gray that you see in my hair is not because I'm old. It's because I have daughters. So I don't know that that's really the case, but I can joke about. So one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is you've got a great resource out there that you've developed over the last few years and called The Fallible Man and The Fallible Man podcast. And congratulations, you're just going to be putting out, or actually by the time that this goes out, you're going to have passed that 300th episode, which is amazing. So I guess I wanna go back in time and tell me the story of The Fallible Man because podcasting is not easy. It takes time. It takes a lot of time.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:38]:
It takes a lot of effort. And you gotta be pretty passionate about the topic to be able to keep it going for so long. So talk to me about The Fallible Man. What made you decide that you wanted to jump into this and put all this blood, sweat, and tears into it for as long as you have to put all this content and information out there for the masses?Brent Dowlen [00:16:58]:
You know, it's funny because I told this story many times. And there are still days I question my own story on this. It's like, is that really what was driving me at the time? So The Powell Man, we started in 2020. And it really started with I had the sense of urgency that I needed to start to impact people. I told you I have a background in ministry, and I left ministry several years ago now about 18. And but I grew up around it. My dad was a preacher. And so it been ingrained my whole life.Brent Dowlen [00:17:30]:
I feel like I need to serve people and impact people in a positive way. It's why I got into youth ministry. And we had several female friends. We used to have about 14 people over every single week, 14 to 16, One night a week, all our friends would come up, just show up at our house. And we'd cook the main meal, and people would bring stuff. We kept pot pot pota kinda meal because it got too expensive because we were going out to a restaurant. It's this nice Italian place once a week, every week. And it just got too expensive for everybody, so we moved to my house.Brent Dowlen [00:17:58]:
But I would listen to our female friends get frustrated about their boyfriends or their husbands. And I started becoming the translator for them. They'd be like, oh, he's doing this. I was like, that's not what's actually happening. You understand that. Right? They're like, no. And so I would start translating for these guys who usually weren't there and didn't really know how to translate what they were doing or what was actually happening to this young woman. And I actually had people prodding me to write a book for women about men.Brent Dowlen [00:18:28]:
And I was like and this was before the term mansplaining became popular, but it's like all the warning lights went off. I'm like, nope. Nope. That's just gonna end badly. Right? So the years kept going and we had kids. And I started thinking about it because I have I have 7 nieces or no. 9. Nine nieces.Brent Dowlen [00:18:45]:
Between the two sides of the family, I have 9 nieces. There's a lot of girls in my life. And I have some that are my on my side of the family because I'm the baby. My oldest brother's daughters are now all in their twenties. One of them is almost 30, and I've watched them grow up. Right? And I watch all these teenage girls I worked with, and I'm watching my younger nieces now. I'm looking at this like, how do I make an impact for them? And then my daughters came along. And I was like, how do I make an impact that can truly do something for them? And like a lot of dads, when I became a dad, I kinda started on this journey of self improvement because I was terrified I wasn't going to be able to set a good enough example for my kids.Brent Dowlen [00:19:25]:
And so I started down this journey for myself and eventually it led me to it was like, well, that's what I can do, is I can help other men who are somewhere on that journey. And so part of it was this need to impact people in a positive way. And then how do I solve this other problem of how do I help young men, especially in a time where there are more and more men growing out without positive male role models in the home? For whatever reasons, no no judgments on that's not that's not my place. For whatever reason, there are a lot of young men growing up without positive male role models in the home. And I was on a forum just the other day on Reddit and I wanted to cry reading this post. And it's like, we have no one to show us how to be men because y'all have can't agree on what that even is at this point. What masculinity is supposed to look like. And I'm reading is like this was maybe 2 days ago.Brent Dowlen [00:20:16]:
I was reading this forum. And it's like, this is why I'm doing this. Because I can't help everyone. But how can I reach the most people to encourage men who are on that journey to grow into their best selves, whether they had a good influence or they had a bad influence, there becomes time when you decide to do it for yourself? So how do I help those guys? And so I started my show and then I started having guests on to fill in the gaps that I couldn't necessarily talk about, but it started with my journey trying to become the best version of me. So that's my daughter c. And then, how can I help other men make that journey, so that one of these days, there are positive male role models influencing the next generation, the next generation because that's gonna affect my daughters and their children?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:05]:
So you've put out there 300 episodes. You've met a lot of people. And I'm sure that along the way, you've learned a lot, not only about yourself, but about what you were just talking about in regards to what men need right now. And some of that's subjective. I'm gonna be very honest about that because there's many people that have probably many different thoughts on what masculinity should be, ought to be, could be, etcetera. Talk to me about your biggest takeaways. Looking back at 300 episodes, looking back at 300 interviews, 300 conversations, and what's been the biggest takeaways for you that you think that all men need to know to be able to connect better either with themselves, with other men, and to be that better version of themselves that they want to be.Brent Dowlen [00:21:58]:
You know, I wanted to be a place that's why I called it the fallible man. I wanted to be upfront that I was on a journey. I didn't ever wanna come across as the guy who had all the answers because that's an immediate turn off. Right? That that that's all crap. No one no one has all the answers. No one has it perfect. I'm very quick to share my failings with my audience because that's an incredibly important part of the journey for any of us. And I've wrestled with and reformed on this question so many times, Chris.Brent Dowlen [00:22:26]:
Like, I am constantly at war with this question in my head, adjusting what I think is crucial, what I think is the ultimate, how do I get that down to really bite sized pieces for people. And I think where I'm at right now is this. All men were born for a purpose. You inherently have worth because you're you're a person. You're born, therefore, you have worth. But you are born for a purpose, and your mission is to find a way to that purpose. Because once men are very mission oriented and once you find what that purpose is for you, it clarifies your other choices. It gives you direction.Brent Dowlen [00:23:06]:
It gives you meaning. And once you start to live in alignment with that, everything else just seems easier. But we all have a unique purpose. Right? Because we all are unique individuals with our own back stories, our own experiences in lives, the personalities, the people who have influenced us, make us all very unique in the way we deal with things, and the way we process emotions and thoughts and feelings. And so you uniquely have something to offer the world that is a great value. And for men, finding that purpose and trying to pull everything else into alignment with them, well, that is probably one of the most critical things they can do because once you find that, everything else gets easier. You gain so much clarity on the direction you wanna go with things. It makes decisions easier because it either falls in line with that or it doesn't.Brent Dowlen [00:23:53]:
And men need a sense of direction and purpose to really flourish. I've had so many people, like, I go out of my way. You will not come to my podcast and find a bunch of guys thumping their chest and grunting and saying men's men men. Right? I'm a fairly, quote, unquote, stereotypically masculine guy. I ride a motorcycle. I shoot guns. I was in military briefly. I lift weights.Brent Dowlen [00:24:17]:
I have a beard. I usually have a mohawk. I mean, I'm none of that is masculinity. None of it. That is not it. And so I rail against that on my podcast. I am interested in men who actually want to be men. And that looks there are a lot of common attributes, but it has nothing to do with the physicality.Brent Dowlen [00:24:34]:
Yes. If you have a certain physicality, some people will take you more seriously. But I've had the privilege of knowing some elite elite soldiers over the years. I intermingled with a lot of special forces guys over the years. I had a navy seal who was cross training into another program in a different branch of military, and he was nothing to look at. Right? He wasn't a big guy. He wasn't all jacked. He didn't have this huge physical presence from his physicality, but he had a presence that was undeniable because of who he was and the confidence in which he carried himself.Brent Dowlen [00:25:07]:
And that came from he had a purpose and a mission and a direction and he lived in alignment with that. It's who he was. So I think for a lot of men, just finding that purpose, and then I may be one of the first guys you'll hear say it is learning humility. If you find your purpose and start living in alignment with that and can embrace humility, because it takes strength to be humble. Humility is not a weakness. Humility comes from a place of strength. But if you can have the humility to go, I have room to grow. I don't have all the answers.Brent Dowlen [00:25:38]:
Right. Then you can grow. Then you can live in alignment with that purpose and those beliefs and those ideals that you value. And you can live your best life because you have to get into that growth mindset of I'm here. I didn't hate who I was when I became a dad, but I looked at who I was and I went, what is the bar I wanna set for my children? I want them to see me make mistakes. I want them to see me own those mistakes. I want them to see me struggle and grow because I want them to know the journey is worthwhile. And so, yeah, finding your purpose as a man, I think is critical because it makes everything clearer.Brent Dowlen [00:26:12]:
And then embracing that humility because not because you're weak, but because you're strong enough to go, I can be better. I can do more.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:19]:
And what are some of the first steps that you would recommend that someone take to find that purpose for themselves?Brent Dowlen [00:26:26]:
Hindsight is a huge blessing. I think it's actually a lot easier for guys who have a few more years than some younger guys. I think that's why it takes so long for some of us to find our purpose and direction because you need that hindsight. But you have to have enough hindsight. You have to have that 50,000 foot view sometimes. For a long time, I thought I was supposed to go into ministry, and I ran from it. Before I finally went into ministry, I ran from, I have my own Jonah story. But years later, looking back with that 50,000 foot view, it wasn't necessarily ministry I needed to be in.Brent Dowlen [00:26:56]:
That was just the way I understood to express that need, that purpose for me. I have a gift in helping other people grow and rise, mentoring other people. And I see that because I look back over I started working when I was 16 years old. 44 now. I've had a wide array of jobs because I could never stay anywhere because I was bored with them. But everywhere I've ever gone, I always end up being a trainer or a teacher in the group. My last big company I worked for, I was the lead trainer for our entire division. Part of my job wasn't what I got to do full time, but it was part of my job.Brent Dowlen [00:27:27]:
I wrote all of the documentation. I did all the onboarding. I trained all the new people. I went and set up new sites. The job I had before that, oh, I ended up training people. The job I had before that, totally different industry. I got all the new people with me because they trusted me to train them. And so as I started looking back, it's like, okay, no matter what I do, and I've also been a personal trainer, no matter what I do, it always comes back to working with people to grow in an area where they wanna grow.Brent Dowlen [00:27:55]:
And so, and I can look back over years years years of my life now at 44 and go, wow. That's what it's been every place I've been. It doesn't matter what I do. That's where I end up. And it's like, okay. So maybe my talents and gifts and purpose all align with teaching people or helping people grow. Right? Because as a personal trainer, I love to be in a personal trainer because I was so excited for every half step forward for any of my clients. I relished in them hitting goals and overcoming things that were trying to get past.Brent Dowlen [00:28:25]:
I specialized in working with people who are usually working around an injury or recovering from an injury, and I loved helping them gain that back. Right? Just to see them thrive. I trained so many people in the IT industry to watch them take better jobs, better positions after I trained them. And I was happy for all of them. I was never mad when they left because I had to train somebody else. I was thrilled that they got a better position for better pay. And so I think age gives you a lot of benefit when you have that. Now when you're younger in your twenties, you're still trying to figure out a lot of things.Brent Dowlen [00:28:55]:
You're still experiencing life. You don't have that experience to look back over with that 50,000 foot view. But I would encourage people to look at it and go, okay. This is what I like to do, but what is it I truly love about doing that? Not so much, yeah, I'd like to do this or I like to do that. Yeah. But really dig deep in that. My as my mentor, Dai, told me, what's the why beneath the why beneath the why? Six times. That was the minimal rule.Brent Dowlen [00:29:24]:
Six times. Why? Okay? Why? Right? Six times deep minimal with him. And in your twenties, that's what you really gotta do is, okay, I really love doing this. Like, I'm passionate about doing this, but why am I passionate about doing that? What aspect of this am I really truly passionate about? What really gets me out of bed? And then you can start to see once you get to that aspect, you can kinda zoom out a little bit and start to see what about that is it moving me? Okay. When I was younger, did that move me? Would I be interested in this because I would get to do that? It's not quite the experience take, but I it's probably the easiest direction to go in your younger years.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:01]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Brent Dowlen [00:30:08]:
Oh, I don't know, but we'll see.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:09]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?Brent Dowlen [00:30:11]:
Blessing.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:12]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded in being a father to a daughter?Brent Dowlen [00:30:18]:
I'll let you know when I get there.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:19]:
If I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?Brent Dowlen [00:30:23]:
Present.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:23]:
And 10 years from now, what do you want them to say?Brent Dowlen [00:30:25]:
That we never had any question that dad was always there for us, that we were a priority.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:30]:
Now, who inspires you to be a better dad?Brent Dowlen [00:30:33]:
My father. Because my dad passed. It's almost been 3 years now. But to the day he died, I never once questioned. My father loved me, that I was a priority to him, that he always had my back.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:45]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today. A lot of things that you've learned along the way. Not only learned in your own journey, but learned from other men and other people. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Brent Dowlen [00:30:56]:
20 years from now, your boss won't care about how many hours you worked. Your children will never ever ever forget that they were your priority.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:05]:
Now if people want to find out more about you, more about the fallible man, where should they go?Brent Dowlen [00:31:09]:
The easiest place to go would be the falliblemanpodcast.com. You can get on our mailing list. You can check out the podcast via the YouTube video, your favorite audio player. I've got 7 links out to your favorite audio as well as being embedded, and see what we're doing and what we're about, and if it's something you're interested in.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:26]:
And we'll put links in the notes today so that you can find that for yourself and check it out and and hear some of the 300 plus episodes that Brent has already put out there and that he'll keep putting out there to help other men be better men. Brent, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for what you're doing to be able to engage men in these conversations, but also to engage in the process of being able to work on themselves to become those men that they wanna be. Thank you for being here. Thanks for what you're doing, and I wish you all the best.Brent Dowlen [00:31:57]:
Thanks, Chris.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:58]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:57]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men, get out and beat the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best that you can be. -
In a recent episode of Dads with Daughters, we delve into the multifaceted journey of fatherhood with guest Travis Hawkley, a father of three vibrant daughters aged 17, 13, and 9. The episode is a treasure trove of insights, real-life anecdotes, and practical advice for fathers striving to be the best dads they can be.
Embracing Each Child's Unique Needs
One of the central themes of the conversation is the importance of treating each child as an individual. Travis shares how his middle daughter faced anxiety around dance recitals. Despite her love for dancing, the pressure to perform became overwhelming. Instead of insisting she fit into a conventional dance class, Travis and his wife found a non-performing dance class that allowed their daughter to continue her passion without the stress of recitals. This decision underscores Travis's belief in accommodating each child's unique needs rather than imposing one-size-fits-all expectations.
Travis's approach to parenting is a thoughtful balance of supporting his daughters' independence while providing the guidance and resources they need to explore their interests. The key is to avoid making his daughters feel like they need to prioritize his feelings over their own, thereby fostering a sense of independence and self-driven choices.
The Power of Curiosity and Engagement
Travis advocates for a parenting style rooted in curiosity and engagement. He emphasizes the importance of initiating conversations and asking open-ended questions to understand each child's interests and aspirations. This approach not only strengthens the parent-child bond but also empowers children to express themselves freely.
Supporting their interests doesn’t have to be costly. Travis suggests starting with low-cost activities to gauge their passion. For example, his oldest daughter's interest in stagecraft was nurtured with encouragement and opportunities to explore theater, even without a clear career path in mind. The support allowed her to pursue her passion without fear of failure.
Travis shares that his most successful moments as a father are when his daughters approach him with difficult questions, showcasing their trust and openness. This trust is built through consistent engagement and letting children guide conversations, ensuring they feel heard and valued.
Overcoming Limiting Beliefs
A significant part of Travis's parenting philosophy is fostering a positive growth mindset. He underscores the importance of helping children overcome limiting beliefs—self-imposed barriers that can hinder their potential. Drawing from his own experience, Travis recalls how being praised for his test-taking skills became a limiting belief, leading him to put less effort into his studies. It was only through conscious effort that he deconstructed this belief to succeed academically later in life.
Travis applies these lessons to his children, particularly regarding their future aspirations. His oldest daughter, for instance, feels uncertain about her post-high school plans amidst societal pressure to have a clear career path. Travis reassures her by sharing his varied career experiences and emphasizes the importance of flexibility and openness to change. He encourages her to consider non-traditional career paths, like becoming an electrician while indulging her theater interests, highlighting the value of adaptability in today's world.
Inspiration and Influence
Travis draws inspiration from his daughters and their interactions, finding joy and motivation in their growth. His parenting style is also influenced by his parents—his mother encouraged exploration and trying new things, while his father, despite different interests, provided a model of support and care.
This blend of influences has shaped Travis's motto: "Love wastefully." He emphasizes that love is an inexhaustible resource and advocates for loving fully and unconditionally. This philosophy extends to self-love and maintaining a balance between work and personal fulfillment.
Conclusion
In his conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Travis Hawkley showcases a profound and nuanced approach to fatherhood. By treating each child as an individual, fostering curiosity, and helping them overcome limiting beliefs, Travis exemplifies the values of love and support that are crucial in raising strong, independent daughters. His journey reminds us that being present, engaged, and adaptable are key components of fatherhood. As Travis encourages, let's all strive to "love wastefully" and support our children's journeys without reservation.
TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created through CASTMAGIC)
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to walk on this journey with you because, you know, it is a journey. All of us are on a journey together in trying to raise our daughters. Whether you have a brand new newborn at home or you have college age kids, you're always going to be a father And you're always going to have to do what you can to continue to learn to grow and to be present, to be active and to be able to be there to help your kids to continue to become the people that they're becoming. And we can't do that alone. There are so many other dads that are out there that have walked this path prior to us, are walking side by side with us, and men don't always do a great job of talking to one another. That may not be a surprise to you, but it's true.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]:
And it's important for us to understand that we have resources in our own community and beyond that can help us to be even better dads. So that's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to help you to be that active dad that you wanna be, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox and to open up your mind to different ways of doing things because there's no one right way to father. You can do it in so many different ways, but you can learn from other dads too. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you along that journey. And today we got another great dad with us. Travis Hockley is with us today. And Travis is a father of 3 girls.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:
He has 3 girls that are 17, 13, and 9. So he's right in the thick of it and working to help his daughters to prepare them to be grown and flown. He's got one that's gonna graduate this year. So it is a definite process. And I'm really looking forward to talking with him today about his own journey and to share that journey with you as well. Travis, thanks so much for being here today.Travis Hawkley [00:02:24]:
Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]:
It is my pleasure. I thank you for being here. And we always start our interviews with an opportunity to kind of turn the clock back in time. I love being able to do that. I said you have 3 girls and your oldest is 17. So I'm gonna go back. Maybe it's 18 years. Maybe it's 17 and a half years, you know, but I wanna know what was your first reaction? What was that first reaction that you had when you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter?Travis Hawkley [00:02:52]:
You know, I I've listened to a few episodes of the podcast and have talked to a lot of other dads. And I've noticed that a lot of dads were pretty fearful, terrified, apprehensive about having a daughter. And, honestly, I didn't feel that. I think I probably would have felt more terrified had it been having a boy. And that comes from any number of things. But growing up, I didn't I guess I didn't ever, like, identify a whole lot with a lot of the, like, quote, unquote, stereotypical guy things. Wasn't a huge fan of sport. Didn't really like a lot of that stuff.Travis Hawkley [00:03:25]:
I liked art. I liked music. I liked the things that are unfortunately labeled as stereotypically female. And so when we were starting to have kids and I found out I was having a girl, that to me just it felt right. It felt normal. It felt natural. I was like, alright. I I can do this.Travis Hawkley [00:03:43]:
And as you mentioned, I have 3. And every time, you know, went through that process and found out I was having another girl, I was just excited. And then after we had our 3rd, someone said, well, are you gonna try for a 4th and see if you can get that boy? And I thought to myself and I'm like, okay. Well, statistically speaking, if we have another one, it's probably gonna be a girl too because that's just the way that that works in in a lot of cases. But I was like, you know, I know girls. I'm a good girl dad. I I know what I'm doing at this point in time. You know, if I were to have a boy, that would really kinda throw things off a little bit.Travis Hawkley [00:04:16]:
You know, if if we were to have another one, which we didn't. But having a girl would probably be another great thing. So I didn't really feel that apprehension. I I loved it, and I've loved every minute of being a a girl dad.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:26]:
It's definitely a journey and definitely something you have to learn about. I relate to what you said in regards to growing up. I was much more on the music, the choir, the theater, the the things that were not the let's watch basketball, baseball, football, you know, being on the sports teams and things like that. And not to say that there's anything wrong with that, but Nope. That I think that I would have probably felt similar if I had had a son and being able to understand, okay, what do I have to do to be able to understand where they are going to be coming from? Because their journey may be different than mine. But at the same time, I guess I have to think about that as a father to a daughter too, because their journey is definitely different than mine. And I have to realize that and be open to that as well. Now you said that you didn't really feel fear when your children were born.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:20]:
As your kids have gotten older, as they've gone through the different phases and stages, and you have one that's getting ready to be in her last year of high school, and then you've got younger ones as well. What would you say has been your biggest fear throughout their lives that you've had to deal with?Travis Hawkley [00:05:35]:
I think one of the biggest things that I have been fearful of really has less to do with them and more to do with me as a father of I didn't want to put expectations on my kids in such a way that would cause them to maybe count my feelings as more important than their own. I didn't want them to ever think, oh, if I don't do this, I'm gonna disappoint my dad. That was never something that I wanted them to feel. And I feel like my parents did a really good job of that as well. So that was you know, it wasn't something that that was I was trying to go against how I was raised. I feel like my parents did a great job, but I just I didn't want them to go through life thinking that what I thought was more important than what they wanted to do. So I think that's probably has been and still is my biggest fear.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:28]:
Now you have 3 daughters, all at very different ages, completely different parts of their life in how they relate to you, probably how they relate to each other. And once you bring more than one child in the mix, you have to deal with a lot of the connections and you have to be able to do what you can as a father to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your kids because each of your children are always going to be very different than one another. That being said, as you think about the journey that you've been on with your daughters, what have you had to do to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your daughters to be able to allow you to understand them better, but also allow for them to be able to connect better with you?Travis Hawkley [00:07:15]:
Yeah. That's a fantastic question. And we definitely spread them out. I mean, they're all 4 years apart in school. So my oldest is currently in her will will be entering her senior year of high school, which means that my middle child is 13. She'll be entering her 8th grade year, and then my youngest will be entering her 4th grade year. So they are never in the same school at the same time, except for, like, 1 year in elementary school. So it really has been very different to get to know them and parent them because they aren't.Travis Hawkley [00:07:46]:
They're not in a similar life position at all, which has been really interesting and fascinating. For each one of them, I mean, it has been really nice. It was really nice with my oldest, for example, because she was 4 by the time her sister was born. So I had a lot of time. And at that point in time, I was teaching and going to school. So I had a lot of extra time that I could spend with her. So she and I kind of, I mean, grew up together. We learned a lot from each other.Travis Hawkley [00:08:13]:
We'd go to the library at any time that we wanted to. You know, all the things that we wanted to do, we just kinda did, which was nice. And she, personality wise, is a lot like her mom. And so she and I got along really well. When my second child came along, she was very much personality wise like me, and we did not mesh at all. And so it was really, really difficult to between the ages of maybe 25, we just butted heads constantly. And it was really, really rough. I really feared so I guess here's one thing I did fear.Travis Hawkley [00:08:46]:
I really feared that she and I would never really be able to connect. And I knew deep down that that likely wasn't going to be the case, that we just kinda had to figure each other out. And I think where we finally did learn how to connect was once I kinda took away those expectations at the beginning. And I did have certain expectations on my kids even though I attempted not to. I expected her to act a certain way, and she wasn't gonna act that way. And that had nothing to do with parenting, had everything to do with just her innate personality. And once I figured out how to let that go and accept her personality and and accept her feelings and accept who she was, we were able to connect. And now she's probably the most like me, and she and I could connect perfectly well.Travis Hawkley [00:09:34]:
So, yeah, there definitely have been challenges with each one to kinda get to know them. And I think for me, it's been finding their thing. So my oldest was, for example I mean, we're all readers just because I'm a reader, so reading's just always been a thing. But my oldest was really, like, a reader. She would just pour through books, and she and I connect in that way. My middle child, not as much of a reader, but she really likes movement and dance and things like that. So she and I have been able to connect through that. My youngest, she more likes movies and other things.Travis Hawkley [00:10:10]:
So it's been a lot of spending time together to discover what each one of them likes and trying to make sure that I connect with them on that, but also just kind of being curious. I think for me, the the biggest thing as a dad is being curious about what it is that they are interested in at the moment and giving that my attention and helping them to figure out what they're interested in. And by doing that, I've been able to keep them interested, keep them coming to me. They feel like they can come to me with anything. They're not gonna get pushed away. My oldest was in 8th grade, so this is three and a half years ago now, probably. My oldest was trying to kinda figure out what she was gonna do in high school, you know, her courses for high school. She didn't know exactly what she wanted to do.Travis Hawkley [00:10:54]:
And she came to me, and she's like, what if I did theater? And I was like, I I think that's fascinating. I think you'd be really good at that. And she's like, well, I don't wanna act. She's like, what if I did stagecraft? And I could tell that she was maybe a little bit apprehensive to go to her mom about it because her mom wanted her to do certain things. And when she came to me, and she brought it up and was really excited about it, I was like, well, let's let's look into it. Let's kinda figure it out. We love going to musicals, so being around with really amazing sets and that lifestyle, whatever, was something that we were into, and she has run with it. So now she runs the soundboard for all the musicals and the plays, and she's a stage manager.Travis Hawkley [00:11:32]:
So she does all this really cool stuff, and she's starting to do a community. So something that she was just really kind of interested in, didn't really know, she and I were able to connect on and kind of turn that into something that might continue, might end up being a potential career path for her as well. SoDr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:48]:
Love that because there are so many different career paths that you can take, and sometimes you go down one pathway that can spark an interest, spark a light, and can open up a door for something completely different than you thought. And so I commend you for encouraging her in that way. And, you know, one of the things that I think that that really makes me think about is the fact that I think that many women today, and I've seen this in my own daughters, whether it be society or people around them, there have been things that make them feel that they're limited, that they have these limiting beliefs that hold them back from achieving their full potential. I said, I've seen this in my own daughters and we've had to have many conversations and and really trying to unpack that for ourselves. And I know in talking to you, you said you've had some similar things that you've been doing with your own daughters to be able to help them and to really make them think in different ways. I guess I'd be interested to better understand where did you start seeing that in your own daughters? And what did you have to start putting in place to try to unpack that for your daughters so that they were willing to not only hear you, but then be willing to act on what you were trying to instill in them?Travis Hawkley [00:13:03]:
So I think in order to kind of unpack that, I've got to go back to my own childhood and look at all of the one of the things that has been pretty constant in my life, and I think in most of our lives, has changed. So when I was 12 years old, my family moved from Fort Worth, Texas to Boise, Idaho, and that was a huge change. And then when I was 18, I went and lived in Russia for a semester to teach English to little kids at a kindergarten in Russia as a kind of a volunteer experience. And I lived for a couple years in Spain, and then I went to school, and I moved around a lot. I became a teacher. I taught at the college level, ESL and Spanish at a college level mostly. And so I have gone through a lot of changes where I've had to confront a lot of my own limiting beliefs and kind of deconstruct those. Living outside of the country is a fantastic way to butt up against those things that you have that are gonna limit you.Travis Hawkley [00:13:54]:
I remember multiple occasions when I lived in Russia. I was 18 years old. I didn't know anything, you know, about life in the real world. And there I was in all these situations where the things that I had grown up with, the beliefs that I had grown up with were being pushed back against by people who believed in a completely different way. And, you know, I found that I could go one of 2 ways. I could either fight back against them and try to hold on to the things that I thought were right, or I could examine those beliefs and figure out where they could change and how I could become different, how I could help make those beliefs work for me. And so I started regularly through all these insane life changes, examine these beliefs, and try and figure out where they come from, and why were they there, and how were they causing me to act in a certain way. And so I I started in my head, just as as you were talking about, and I started calling them limiting beliefs.Travis Hawkley [00:14:49]:
And as I was teaching so I had one particular job where I worked at a career college in Tucson, Arizona. And my job was specifically to help people who were getting back into school. So most of them had been out of college for a while. They were coming back to school at 25, 30. I think the oldest student that I had was 63 who were coming back to a career college to try and do something different. Now a lot of these students had been not great students when they were in school before. They'd either had not finished high school, they never finished their diploma or GED, or had gotten their GED by the skin in their teeth, had been told by their teachers that they weren't good students, that they were never going to amount to anything. And they were coming back to school because they needed a way out.Travis Hawkley [00:15:31]:
They needed to change their lives. And they saw education as being that way, that thing that was going to help them. And so the class that I taught focused on 3 different things. Academic study skills, number 1, super important. They wanted to make sure that they could actually do school. Also, career exploration skills. So we, you know, did resume writing and interview questions and that type of thing, which was really fun. But then the 3rd piece was mindset.Travis Hawkley [00:15:55]:
It was looking at helping them figure out how to have a positive growth mindset moving forward. And that was where I really, really, really so at at that point in time, my oldest was 2, maybe 3 years old when I got that job. And so it was a really great time for me to have that job, that experience because it really helped me to flush out to see these people going through this experience of deconstructing actively, harshly these ideas that they had grown up with and had had since they were really young. And so it it taught me to be very cognizant of what I was putting on my kids. I didn't want them to have any beliefs that were going to stop them, that were going to limit them. I wanted them to grow up free of those things. And, you know, that's hard, and I'm idealistic for me to say, oh, I didn't want them to have any sort of beliefs that we're going to limit them. But I think depending on how you view any belief could be a bit a limiting belief.Travis Hawkley [00:17:00]:
But I think what it really boils down to is helping them to be able to overcome, any belief that they find that might be getting in the way. One of the things and I and I always liked to share this one when it came to my teaching experience as well. When I was in 1st grade, I had a very little white haired grandmotherly type first grade teacher. Her name was missus Cox. She was fantastic. Both my my older brother and older sister had had her as well. So I was the 3rd of me and my siblings to have her. And she told me when I was in 1st grade that I was really, really good at taking tests and that I was gonna be really successful in school because I was really good at taking tests.Travis Hawkley [00:17:36]:
Now that sounds like it's a wonderful thing, except that as I got older, and mostly into high school and college was where I really saw this, I felt like I was really good at taking tests and didn't need to study all that much because I was good at taking tests. And so it was really difficult. I mean, I did really well on tests, period. I mean, I I was great at taking tests, but I didn't put in the work to really make a lot of that knowledge last. So even something that seems like it's a positive can potentially limit you in certain ways. And once I figured that out, when I was in college, I was probably in my junior year of college. By the time I kinda figured that out, then I had to go through process of deconstructing that and figuring out how to go about doing the rest of my education without having that be a problem. So when it comes to my girls, I try to make sure that they know that any belief that they have, we can go about modifying it or changing it.Travis Hawkley [00:18:31]:
Or we can figure out how to work within that belief if it's causing problems to what they wanna do. I'll give an example. My my 13 year old is a dancer. And probably maybe 4 years ago, she came to me, and she was having a hard time a lot with, like, recovery when it came to how she was able to do her dance practices and her workouts and things like that. She wanted to get better. And at that point in time, I had done a lot of diet and lifestyle changes. I've had kind of figured out some things, and I made some suggestions to her. And I said, you certainly don't have to do this, but you wanted to kind of adopt this lifestyle that I have.Travis Hawkley [00:19:10]:
I feel like you might benefit from this. And she was like, well, I'll certainly give it a try even though it was different from the way the rest of the family ate, except for myself, of course, and was way different from the way most of her friends led their lives. And she was able to adopt that lifestyle and was able to make a lot of really interesting changes when it came to her her dance. She was able to recover lots faster. She was able to, you know, just get better by leaps and bounds. Where before, she was, you know, very incrementally getting better. Now she was exponentially getting better. And she's an amazing dancer now where had she had she not made those changes, you know, who knows? So it's interesting to look at, and not that she was eating bad before, but just for the lifestyle that she wanted, adopting a different belief system led her to be able to do that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:13]:
So that was your oldest that you were just talking about. And right?Travis Hawkley [00:20:18]:
Middle child.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:18]:
Okay. So talk to me about what so that was your middle child that you were talking about. So what has been the the, what's been the reaction as you've had these conversations with your youngest and your oldest?Travis Hawkley [00:20:37]:
So about that specifically or about, you know, just in in general about things that they like to do?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:44]:
About the limiting beliefs and and things that limit them and hold them back.Travis Hawkley [00:20:48]:
Yeah. So my oldest, I think the thing that has been the most prevalent recently is, as you mentioned, she will be graduating from high school next year. And her biggest thing on her mind is what she's gonna do after. And she has had this problem for years, probably since she was in the 7th grade, where she felt like her friends all knew what they were gonna do. They all already had their life plan out. I'm gonna be a doctor. I'm gonna be a whatever. I'm gonna do this.Travis Hawkley [00:21:13]:
And she had no idea. She did not know what she wanted to do, and that was really frustrating to her because she didn't have one thing that she found to be really, really interesting. And I told her that. I'm like, that's not a problem at all. But she saw it as one because society was telling her that she should know what she wanted to do when she grew up. We asked that question to kids all the time. What do you wanna be when you grow up? And she felt like she should know, and she did. And that was really, really hard.Travis Hawkley [00:21:39]:
And I made sure to point out to her how many different things I had gone through. Yes. I was a teacher, but I taught so many different things. And I taught at a university. I taught at a community college. I taught at the career college. I wasn't when we when I moved back to Boise about 10 years ago, I wasn't able to find a job in education. I got a job as a sales guy at an IT company.Travis Hawkley [00:21:59]:
I didn't know anything about sales. I didn't know anything about IT. And I got that job, and I was able to make it work. And I was interested, and I was curious. And so I have I walked her through all those different things that I've gone through in my life and said, you might choose one thing that you're gonna do in your college career, and that's gonna change anyway. Most people nowadays, at least, do not start out with one thing and stay doing that one thing for the rest of their life. And if they do, that's awesome. That's because they've been able to stick with it, be interested in it.Travis Hawkley [00:22:28]:
That's something that is great for them. I'm like, but not everybody's like that. You get to figure out what you're like, and you get to figure out how you wanna proceed. And that's something that has been kind of interesting because her mom is very much set on her going the route of the traditional 4 year bachelor's degree education going through and and doing that process and getting a job that way. And my daughter doesn't want to. She has talked about becoming an electrician. And using that, coupled with the theater experience that she was talking about before, setting up sound systems, microphone systems she wants to continue to work at. She's currently volunteering at a small playhouse here, being a stage manager, doing sets, doing sound, and she's been able to find something that she feels she's going to be able to do for a while.Travis Hawkley [00:23:17]:
And we've had conversations about what happens when that changes. What happens when she becomes interested in something else and doesn't wanna keep doing that? And I think in a lot of cases, most people get into that sort of situation and they feel stuck. How am I gonna change? How am I gonna do this? That sunk cost fallacy of being like, I've already put in this much time and effort. I can't switch. I can't do something different. And so that's kind of been a conversation a lot recently with my oldest. My youngest, you know, really hasn't hit a lot of those yet being only 9. But I think the one most recently, she followed in her just oldest sister, my middle child's footsteps, and went into dance.Travis Hawkley [00:23:54]:
And she found herself getting kind of anxious about performing in dance recitals. And she didn't really know what it was when she was, like, 5 or 6 years old. She just kind of didn't think that she really liked being up in front of people, but she didn't really know what was going on. And just this last year, she came to us, and she said she's like, I wanna keep dancing. She's like, I just don't wanna keep performing. Can I do that? Is that okay? And, of course, that's okay. We just had to get her into the right dance class. We found dance classes that worked where she was able to do the dance classes and learn routines and learn skills, but she didn't have to perform in front of people.Travis Hawkley [00:24:36]:
That's just not something that she is interested in doing where my 13 year old loves it, thrives on that. And so for my kids, it's that each one of them is so different. Lumping them all into one expectation and saying, well, because we want this for you or we want this for the other, you all have to do the same thing. That's ridiculous. I've been able to help each one of them in unique ways to kind of find their own way forward.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:02]:
Now as you think about other dads that are out there that are listening to this and want to start having these conversations with their own conversations with their own daughters. Is there advice that you might have for them in regards to how to start?Travis Hawkley [00:25:14]:
I think being curious about your kids is one of the main ways. And especially if you notice your kids struggling in a certain way or trying to live up to some standard that they're not sure where it came from, be curious. Be engaged. Just start the conversation. You know? Hey. What are you interested in now? What is something that I don't know about you? What is something that you're interested in that, that I might be interested in? Teach me about something. Tell me about what's important to you. And I know that's hard.Travis Hawkley [00:25:49]:
I mean, I I feel like I've done a good job from the beginning of keeping engaged with my girls. I've never really had to fight to keep their attention or to get their attention. But really that is born from I've always done this. I've always been interested. I've always been engaged. I'm a lifelong learner. I was a teacher, so I'm interested in everything. And so it was easy for me to kind of step in and say, well, what do you want to do? Let's explore that.Travis Hawkley [00:26:13]:
And every time that my kids, within reason, every time that my kids wanted to try something, I was all for it. I was like, alright. Let's go. Let's do this. And I made sure that they knew if it was something that there was gonna be a lot of cost, I was like, let's find a low cost way to do this just in case it does stick. And at the moment that it sticks, we'll go all in. We can buy all the things. We can do all the whatever.Travis Hawkley [00:26:33]:
But I wanna make sure that it's something that you're really interested in. Then when it is, great. Let's go. And so I think, again, just kind of boiling that down. Be engaged. Be curious. You've gotta spend time with your kids. You've gotta give them that time, and you've gotta let them take over and kinda steer those conversations.Travis Hawkley [00:26:53]:
Having those expectations of, oh, my kids should be this way. My kids need to do this. That's gonna lead to your kids. In some cases, they're they're gonna thrive on that. They're gonna be okay. And in others, that's not gonna be who they are, and they're gonna have a hard time. But getting to know your kids, asking them open ended questions, and just, again, being curious, being engaged, I think is is probably the best advice I could give.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:15]:
We always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Travis Hawkley [00:27:22]:
I'm ready.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:22]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?Travis Hawkley [00:27:24]:
Love.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:25]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Travis Hawkley [00:27:28]:
I think it comes mostly from every time they come to me with a question that I know was difficult for them to approach with me. Knowing that they feel my love and openness to where they could come to me, I think that's when I feel the most successful.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:47]:
Now if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?Travis Hawkley [00:27:50]:
I'm I'm sure all sorts of colorful words would come around. I'm I'm definitely not a normal person in a lot of ways. They would probably describe me as being funny and weird and being really energetic, and they would probably use the word engaged too.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:06]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?Travis Hawkley [00:28:08]:
I mean, my girls definitely inspire me to be a better dad. I mean, on a daily basis, when I'm playing with them, when I'm talking to them, I just I want to be the best type of dad that I can. My own dad was a huge influence on me. He was great. We didn't necessarily have the same interests. He was very much the sports is sports guy, loves to watch sports, and yet he still found ways to connect with me, which was fantastic. And so he definitely helped my mom. Another great example, not a dad, but she was an example of a great parent.Travis Hawkley [00:28:41]:
She was interested. She loved to help me, you know, explore new things. She taught me how to cook when I was really young. She a lot of things that I find interesting kinda came from her.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:52]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, a lot of things that you've learned along the way with your 3 daughters. As you think about dads that are listening, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Travis Hawkley [00:29:04]:
For sure. I have a motto, and it's actually painted on my wall in my house in letters that are probably a foot and a half tall. And it's probably about, you know, 8 feet long. And it says love wastefully. And it comes from a guy named John Shelby Spong, and he talks about just loving in such a way that we just give everything, that we just love with everything that we have. And that has been you know, I only discovered that maybe, like, a year and a half ago, that freezing. But I noticed as I kinda look back on my life, I I really have tried to adopt that in a lot of ways, whether it comes to dealing with my kids, dealing with other people, dealing with myself. As a dad, I think it is really hard for me to love myself in a lot of ways because of the stresses of being a dad.Travis Hawkley [00:29:55]:
It's hard to be a dad. You're worried not only about providing for your family. You're worried about, am I connecting with my kids? Am I being a good dad? Am I being a good husband? Am I being everything that I need to be a good provider? There's so much stress around being a dad. Loving yourself can be really, really tough. But giving yourself that love and that curiosity towards yourself too, finding the things that you want to do that you find to be interesting. For a really long time, I was just focused on providing a paycheck for my family, and that was solid. Every dad wants to be able to do that. It was harming my mental health in a lot of ways.Travis Hawkley [00:30:33]:
And so I recently, within the last year, have started my own business as a life transition coach, helping people to do that, which is directly born from my experience as an educator, as a teacher. I'd already been doing that. And so taking that upon myself and realizing this was going to be not as lucrative right at the beginning, but was going to be more fulfilling has helped me to be a better provider still, has helped me to be a better dad, has helped me to be just a better person. So, anyway, tying that all back into the idea of love wastefully. It's not something that's in limited supply. We can love our kids with as much as we have. There's nothing you're not gonna run out. You're not gonna run out of love.Travis Hawkley [00:31:15]:
Give it all and love them and and love everyone around you.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:18]:
Great way to end the show today, and I really appreciate you being here. If people wanna find out more about you, where is the best place for them to go?Travis Hawkley [00:31:24]:
So I am the only, to my knowledge, Travis Hockley in the world. So you can find me pretty easily. Google my name, and I should show up on Facebook and Instagram. I will have a website here in the not so distant future, but I don't have it yet. But those are probably the 2 best places to find me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:41]:
Well, Travis, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own journey, and I wish you all the best.Travis Hawkley [00:31:46]:
Awesome. Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it. This has been great.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:49]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:47]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. -
Parenthood is often described as a roller coaster ride, filled with ups, downs, and unexpected turns. For many fathers, this journey involves a continual process of learning, growth, and adaptation. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we spoke with Thomas Batchelor, an operations and maintenance electrician for Shell Energy Australia and the father of two sons. The conversation touched on various aspects of fatherhood, from the initial challenges to the changing gender roles and the importance of self-care and support.
The Long Marathon: Early Challenges in Fatherhood
When Thomas Batchelor first discovered he was going to be a father, he approached the situation with confidence. However, reality quickly set in. "I thought I'd have it all under control," Batchelor reflected. "But it was far from the truth." Like many new parents, Thomas faced significant hurdles, including a newborn who had difficulty sleeping. The initial months were a humbling experience that forced him to adjust his expectations and learn on the go.
"I learned pretty quickly that it's not a sprint. It's going to be a marathon-type process," Batchelor said. "Settle in because the life that you knew before has changed, and you have to adjust to the new life that you've got now."
This early period was characterized by significant personal growth, teaching Batchelor to look inward and adopt a more grounded approach in both his personal life and in fatherhood.
Shifting Gender Roles and the Importance of Teamwork
Batchelor highlighted how traditional gender roles have shifted in contemporary parenting. He took a year off work to stay at home and support his wife’s career aspirations, showcasing the importance of teamwork in managing family responsibilities. Initially, he struggled to comprehend the "mental load" that his wife carried daily. This refers to the myriad of small, yet significant, tasks that ensure a household runs smoothly.
"About 2 or 3 months in, I thought I was doing a great job, but my wife said I needed to start thinking for myself now," Batchelor explained. It was a steep learning curve that took almost a year to fully grasp.
Understanding and acknowledging these unseen aspects of parental responsibility not only strengthened his relationship with his wife but also allowed him to contribute more effectively at home.
Building a Support Network
One of Batchelor's key points was the importance of seeking and having a support network. Fatherhood can be a lonely journey, often described as the "lone wolf syndrome." He strongly believes that vulnerability and asking for help are crucial for personal well-being. Batchelor participated in a retreat called the Good Blokes Society, which acted as an "adult rite of passage" and enabled him to share his struggles with like-minded men.
"Without that, that was the start of my journey. And then I sat with it, and it was really raw and tough for me to do, but I left there and continued to gain momentum."
His experience illustrates that community and mutual support are essential in navigating the complexities of fatherhood.
Self-Care and Sustainable Fatherhood
Adopting an effective self-care routine emerged as another critical piece of Batchelor’s journey. From regular exercise and a balanced diet to seeking professional psychological help, Batchelor emphasizes that self-care enables him to be a better father.
"I've got to make sure that I'm getting to bed at a decent time, eating a pretty good diet, exercising regularly, and speaking to a psychologist," he said. "If I do that, then I feel like I'm in the place where I need to be."
By managing his well-being, Batchelor ensures that he can fully engage with and support his family.
Thomas Batchelor's story is a resonant example of modern fatherhood's challenges and triumphs. His journey offers essential insights into the importance of adaptability, shifting gender roles, and self-care. Batchelor underscores that vulnerability and a strong support network are indispensable elements for any father striving to be the best they can be. As society continues to evolve, his experiences will undoubtedly inspire other dads to navigate their unique journeys with resilience and empathy.
For more on Thomas Batchelor’s journey and other inspiring stories, tune into the Dads with Daughters podcast. Fathers seeking support can also explore resources offered by Fathering Together.
TRANSCRIPT
Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Every week. I love being able to talk to you, to walk with you, to be here in solidarity, together, talking about fatherhood, working through the journey that we're both on in raising our kids. And I say it's a journey because it truly is a journey. It is a journey that each of us goes on every day and we are going to be learning something every day, learning something about ourselves, learning something about the, the person that we are, the person that we're becoming, but also learning about our kids, what they're becoming. And we then have to pivot. We have to adjust. We have to learn to be able to be the best dads that we wanna be.Christopher Lewis [00:01:06]:
And that's important. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to be able to be that resource for you, to help you along that journey. And I'll be honest, as I've gone through this with you, I've learned so much from all of you, but I've also learned so much from all the guests that we've had on the show. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different dads that have had different experiences, that can share those experiences with you so that you can learn, you can grow, and you can be able to take things from their own experience, put it into your own toolbox, and help you along the way. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Thomas Batchelor is with us. And Thomas is a operations and maintenance electrician for Shell Energy Australia, but he's also, more importantly, a father of 2.Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]:
We're going to be talking about his own journey in being a father to his sons, but also some of the things that he went through in this journey to be able to be present, be engaged, and be there for his sons as they were growing and also some of the things that he learned along the way. So I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share his journey with you. Thomas, thanks so much for being here today.Thomas Batchelor [00:02:20]:
Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me.Christopher Lewis [00:02:21]:
It is my pleasure. I love being able to talk to different dads with different experiences. And first 1st and foremost, one of the things that I love being able to do in our conversations is turn the clock back in time and you've got 2 sons. So I want to go all the way back. Go back to that first moment when you found out that you were going to be a father to a son. What was going through your head?Thomas Batchelor [00:02:40]:
I thought I'd have it all under control. I thought, yeah, I've got my head around this and my kid will fit into my life, but it was far from the truth. And I learned pretty quickly that it's not a sprint. It's going to be a marathon type process and settle in because the life that you knew before has changed and you have to adjust to the new life that you've got now. And I think I did struggle with that.Christopher Lewis [00:03:04]:
So talk to me a little bit about that because as you said, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon and you have to kind of learn along the way. And you've got 2 sons now, so there's definite learning that goes on there from child 1 to child 2. So So what were some of the first things that you really had to learn for yourself that really helped you to start that journey, but also to be able to transcend those first moments of being, let's say, a little bit trepidatious, a little bit concerned, and be able to get into the groove of fatherhood for yourself.Thomas Batchelor [00:03:37]:
Yeah. I think going into it, I probably thought I had a sense of arrogance that I was I was across it all, and I wasn't gonna be any different to any of the other parents who were, you know, I'm gonna do it on my terms. And that didn't happen. We had a child who didn't wanna sleep. He was a challenging baby. Didn't wanna sleep. It was a real challenge, and it's been very humbling. And I'd say that the man I've become today and continue to keep growing is because of the challenges of having, I think, a difficult child. I think it's really helped me to just become more grounded and look more inwardly. And I've had such growth because of the challenges. I'm happy for that.Christopher Lewis [00:04:14]:
You know, all of us go through challenges in different ways. Some of it goes into the type of child that you have and the the things that they push you into, but then there are challenges at times when internally you have to fight your own demons of the way that you were raised into figuring out the way that you wanna raise your own children. So each of us fights those pressures and that connection and that dichotomy that happens when you become a parent. So talk to me about that challenge for yourself and what you had to do to to be able to transcend and move beyond the initial challenge. And let's say it is the nonsleeping. I remember that. I had a child just like that. You, especially after, you know, 6 months, a year of that happening, you're walking around like a zombie and you you don't know which end is up and it impacts your relationships.Christopher Lewis [00:05:03]:
It impacts everything. So talk to me about going through that, but also transcending that to be able to push through it, but to be able to also learn from it to help you to be the dad that you wanted to be now.Thomas Batchelor [00:05:16]:
So I sort of just got my head down really. I thought to myself, if I can try and do as much as I can so I would try and do as much as I could to try and support my wife with the wake ups so she could have a better day. I had Oscar at home as my oldest boy. And I just continued to keep putting my head down. But then I was also trying to mesh in this social life as well. So I thought I could still go out with my mates. I thought I could still go and do all these things that I wanted to do, but still be able to be this supportive husband and the father that I wanted to be and I couldn't do it all. And that became quite an overwhelming thing and I had to really I'm a people pleaser and I had to really make sure that I now I probably only just got to the grips in the last couple of years that, you know, you have to say no to things and you have to make sacrifices because you have to get your priorities straight.Thomas Batchelor [00:06:06]:
And I did bottom out, I'd say about 3 years ago. So I just ran out of steam really and the kids would have never have known. I was just doing what I had to do to get through but I wasn't enjoying the process. I wasn't present. I was making sure that I was doing the things I had to do as a father, but I wasn't enjoying it. It just wasn't an enjoyable experience. And I bottomed out, and I started becoming involved in groups of of particularly men who I would who I went away with. It was almost like an adult rite of passage.Thomas Batchelor [00:06:36]:
I would go away and I'll speak about some of the challenges, obviously, throughout the course of my life and then obviously how it's impacting me as a father now and just really unpacking that. Just having more people to talk to, you know, more people to speak to who are also going through different struggles and just getting it out there. And that really helped me to put things into perspective and and know that I'm not alone. I don't know if you've heard the term the lone wolf syndrome. So that was something I idea. I just got my head down and I would go to the beach at 5 AM in the morning in winter and and run on the beach. I really hammered exercise to a point where it was unhealthy. And just to try and feel something, to try and, you know, get up before the kids got up.Thomas Batchelor [00:07:16]:
I just burnt out. I just couldn't do anymore. And I feel like there's just been different phases of my life where I've had to lean into certain things by slowing things down and then speeding things up at time to try and get to where I need to be. And I feel like I'm really there now. I'm in a really good spot now. I'm actually starting to enjoy my time with my boys. And I'm really grateful for that because, I mean, I don't know how long I could have gone on for. I mean, I didn't wanna get to when the kids were 10, 11, 12 and go far out the whole time.Thomas Batchelor [00:07:44]:
I've just been a servant, you know, and I haven't enjoyed the process. This is more it's about being a parent. So I'm grateful for where I am now. And it's it's a lot of hard work, but grateful for where I am now. SoChristopher Lewis [00:07:55]:
let's rewind a little bit because this process that you went through and this journey that you were on, it sounds like a roller coaster in regards to the highs and the lows and what you were pushing yourself to try to accomplish, but you weren't accomplishing. So you've gotten to a point now where you feel like you're in a good spot, but you had to have gone through some healing in some aspect. You had to have gone through some aspect to challenge yourself, to push you in a different direction. What did you have to do to be able to get off of that roller coaster? What did you have to do to be able to get on this new path that you were on? Because there are going to be dads that are listening right now that are on that roller coaster. They hear they heard what you just said and said, I feel that way right now, but I don't know how to get off. I don't know how to start on this different journey.Thomas Batchelor [00:08:47]:
I think just submitting to where you're at and then asking for help. I think asking for help is the biggest thing. So getting the right people around you who can support you. And if that's not your close circle of friends because you're not there yet, I wasn't there yet. So you think about the people that you went to school with, the people that you work with, your family, you might not feel comfortable going to these people. And I do think that comes back to an upbringing thing and I raise my kids now to speak about their emotions and if they're feeling a certain way we really unpack it. I don't feel that was ever there for me as a child. So I feel like my child's emotional intelligence was actually better or as good as mine as a person who was in their mid thirties.Thomas Batchelor [00:09:30]:
My boy at the time was 5, and his emotional intelligence is is really good. He can tell me how he's he's feeling, and, I mean, I couldn't do that as an adult. So I think you have to put your ego aside. You have to really be vulnerable. Vulnerable is probably the biggest word. And then you have to lean into there's plenty of support groups out there. So I went on a retreat with a guy called Mike Dyson, and he ran a retreat called the Good Blokes Retreat. So it was a bunch of like minded men, and we went away for a weekend.Thomas Batchelor [00:09:58]:
It was all facilitated, catered for. It was in a beautiful part of Western Australia down the south region, and it was winter, and we just had real conversations. So I just get tingles running through my body now speaking about it because without that, that was the start of my journey. And then I sat with it, and it was really raw and it was tough for me to do, but I left there and I'm like, you know what? It just continued to gain momentum. And from that point on then I leant into other circles. So I spoke to my work colleagues. I spoke to my family. I spoke to the guys I went to school with and played sport with.Thomas Batchelor [00:10:35]:
And then from that point on it was all out there and I basically said I can't and don't want to do this all on my own. You know, I want to be able to have the support of my friends and family to enjoy this process as much as possible. And the more that I lean into vulnerability, the more I look at my wife and my kids and feel that connection and that love because it works. It simply works. Yes. I don't know really what more to add to that, but it's been a journey and I'm happy that I'm here now.Christopher Lewis [00:11:03]:
Now you and I were connected through Sarah McConachay, who Sarah wrote a book that you were a part of, that you contributed a chapter to. And in that chapter, you talk about a number of the things that you've already talked about already. And I think one of the things that I found really interesting was you talked a little bit about the fact that you mentioned in what you wrote that following instructions and helping out wasn't enough to handle the mental load at home. Can you elaborate on what you meant by the mental load and how you came to understand its impact on you and on your family dynamics?Thomas Batchelor [00:11:42]:
Yeah. So I'd probably just take it back a little bit. During probably my lowest time, it was sort of when COVID hit. My wife was really busy at work and she's always thinking 2 steps ahead. You know, what's for dinner tonight? What's for dinner tomorrow night? Putting on washing. Just constantly thinking, kids' birthday parties. There's constantly things that I feel like in my relationship that the mom and the working mom has to think about so many more things. I don't know whether it's a male default setting because evolution has brought us to this point.Thomas Batchelor [00:12:11]:
I do think that men are probably having to do more outside of their comfort zone now than ever, and maybe that's an to sit with our evolution for a little bit so our kids can see it, and then we can then take on some of that more of that mental load of all the things that the women talk about. So COVID came along. It was really tough for me, but my wife obviously continued to work and continued to do the home stuff. And I would do the home stuff. Don't get me wrong. I would I would help out and do as much as I could. After COVID, we said, right. We need we need to sort of slow things down here.Thomas Batchelor [00:12:41]:
So my wife took a year off of study break. She went back and and studied her master's. And then she said, look, I'm going to start applying for jobs. And if I land a job as a in an executive position, then, you know, maybe I'll wind back at work and I'll have the year off to adjust. And then from that point on, we'll assess it. And I felt like I was a lot more comfortable being at home with the pace of home than sort of going to work and then having to adjust back to the pace of home. So I said, alright. So my wife ended up landing this position at at a at her work or she she applied for this position and got it.Thomas Batchelor [00:13:18]:
And then I asked my work if I could have 12 months off work, and and they said yes, which was which was amazing. And then it was a steep learning curve. So this is where the mental load comes in. So the 1st 2 or 3 months, I remember thinking I was going along okay. And I went out for dinner with my wife about 2 or 3 months in. I said, look, how am I going? And she sort of looked at me and she was a bit reluctant to give me an answer. And I sort of said, what do you mean? She said, look, I just need you to start thinking for yourself now. You need to start thinking about what needs to be done versus what I tell you that needs to be done.Thomas Batchelor [00:13:51]:
And so obviously it was a bit of a shock, but looking back now, she was correct. And it really took the full year, I think by about the 9 month mark, where I was like really gaining some steam then. I was thinking about, again, it was not for dinner tonight but for the next night, putting a load of washing on, making sure that things are away, just small things. So that's when I think I really became a benefit at home is when I could actually start to remove some of the mental load that my wife had. And I do think there's a lot of other women out there who have similar experiences. But it's I don't think it's a I didn't do it on purpose, but I'm a base now compared to where I was a year ago in regards to how I go about things at home.Christopher Lewis [00:14:36]:
So as you think back to that and you think at the future, so you were talking about gender roles and how those changed in that period of time for you and your family. So how have gender roles and expectations evolved for you in your parenting? And how did you and your wife navigate them beyond that period? And how do you navigate them now? And what advice would you give to other families that are trying to find that balance?Thomas Batchelor [00:15:01]:
I've always been a big supporter of my wife. So I've been with my partner since I was 16. We were both going to school together, and I've always been a big supporter of her. And she's very smart, and I've always thought that some of my life's work would be really supporting her in in being the best that she can be. I mean, I really thrive in seeing people that I love around me do well in life. I celebrate other people's victories, and my wife's one of them. So I think going into it, I was probably going into it with a bit of, I'll just I'm going to support my wife, but I really didn't think about all of the things that had to be done at at home and it was a challenge. And I'd say you just have to keep communicating with your partner and just gotta keep communicating and making sure that you're on the same page and you're both pulling in the same direction.Thomas Batchelor [00:15:48]:
And the more, like anything with any job or any type of task, the more that you do it, the better that you become at it. And then the more that you can then focus on other things that you want to in life.Christopher Lewis [00:15:58]:
In raising 2 sons, especially now in what you've learned yourself about gender roles, about the changing gender roles in family dynamics right now, how does that adjust the way that you think as a father? How does that adjust the way that you parent your sons as they grow into a world that will be even more different as they get into adulthood?Thomas Batchelor [00:16:24]:
I've never really thought about the stereotypes as such that man does this, woman does that. I've never been that type of person. I think it'll be great to see in the future my boys of how they probably view it. It will be interesting. I think we're probably at this biggest change in a gender equality or gender stereotype roles more than ever. I do think that it will become the norm, I think, over the next 10, 20, 30 years. I think the numbers are still low. I think the numbers are still very low of men that stay stay home, but it is gaining traction.Thomas Batchelor [00:16:57]:
But it's a hard job at home. It is a challenging job, but I think it's going to be great to see that, yeah, mom and dad are both capable of doing whatever they want in life.Christopher Lewis [00:17:05]:
Now you mentioned the fact that you had an employer that was supportive of this journey that you went on to be able to be engaged at home and also support your partner in the new endeavors that she was endeavoring on. And not every business has done that or will do that. How important do you think it is for workplace policies and support systems to be put into place for families, for fathers, for parents in general to allow for them to have that work life balance that you talked about?Thomas Batchelor [00:17:42]:
Very important. That year off really helped me to adjust. I think if I did it in a part time capacity, I think it would have been a real struggle for me. I think I need that year off to be able to, fully commit to the role, and then now I've adjusted back to 2 days a week. But, I mean, I was there for 12 years before I went on that year. So I've got a a wealth of knowledge, at the power station where I work, and I think it would be not wise to let a lot of that knowledge go. I mean, I feel like I fit really well in with my team and I'm a good team player. I'll help as much as I can where I can, but I do feel like leading into that year, I was having quite a lot of personal leave in regards to this appointment, that appointment.Thomas Batchelor [00:18:24]:
And so now I'm back 2 days a week, work Monday Tuesday, and then a lot of those appointments are scheduled for Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So I think for the employer, I think it's actually a really good idea because now I'm not impacting the business as much with some of the commitments that I have to with my kids. And I do feel like women probably get a roar end of the deal when it comes to this part time type scenario. My wife tried to work a part time, but it's it's full time work. I mean, they're having to jam a full time job into a part time capacity. I think we've got a long way to go there in regards to the working mum. And I still feel like there's probably with the men, it seems more attractive that a man would stay home and and have the time off, whether I think the women probably get held back a little bit more. I I do think it's we have to do more to support, I think, working mums in the workplace who work in a part time capacity.Thomas Batchelor [00:19:16]:
So I feel like a lot of the stories out there out here is that the moms are having to do a full time load in a part time case, which is I don't think is fair.Christopher Lewis [00:19:24]:
Now a number of the things that you talked about really revolve around that you've gotten to a point where you've identified for yourself the things that you need to be able to do to take care of yourself, but also your family. So I saw this in the piece that you wrote, but also in what you've said that there is a importance that you've placed on self care and communication that seems to be following you now and into the future. Could you share an example for me of how you've incorporated the self care now for yourself in this next phase of your journey of fatherhood and how you hope that that will help you to be able to be an even better father in the future?Thomas Batchelor [00:20:05]:
Again, just getting my priorities straight. So making sure that I'm not saying yes to things that aren't serving me. I don't go out as much as I like to go out for a beer now and again, but I don't push it. So I'm not the guy who who comes home. I haven't got anything against people who want to come home late or they can do these things. If they can fit it all in, they can do it. I just can't do it. So I've got to make sure that I'm getting to bed at a decent time.Thomas Batchelor [00:20:28]:
I'm eating a pretty good diet. I'm exercising regularly. I'm speaking to a psychologist. Just reaching out. I mean, just doing things. I mean, I'm helping in my community. I'll say no to certain things, but I'll say yes to other things, you know, other things that align with my values. And I mean, my priority is my family.Thomas Batchelor [00:20:47]:
And if anything outside of that impact my role as a dad at home, then I have to say, I still struggle to say no. I'm a person that does like to please and does like to say yes. So I've got to keep working at that. And if I do that, then I feel like I'm in the place where I need to be.Christopher Lewis [00:21:03]:
Now I always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Thomas Batchelor [00:21:10]:
Yep. Ready.Christopher Lewis [00:21:10]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?Thomas Batchelor [00:21:12]:
Growth.Christopher Lewis [00:21:13]:
Now when was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father?Thomas Batchelor [00:21:18]:
When I started getting full night sleeps.Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]:
I remember those times. Now, if I was to talk to your boys, how would they describe you as a dad?Thomas Batchelor [00:21:26]:
I would like to say that they think I'm funny, that I'm active, that I'm very supportive of their journey, that they feel safe. I do feel the love and affection from my boys. So I'd like to think that they would think I'm doing a okay job.Christopher Lewis [00:21:41]:
10 years from now, what do you want them to say?Thomas Batchelor [00:21:43]:
I want them to be able to come to me if they have something going on in their life and say, dad, I need help. And if it's not from me, it has to be from another good man. I do feel like my role as a father is to shepherd them through life and to try and open up as many doors as I can. And if some of those doors they don't want to explore, that's fine. But I really do want to feel like that they can, when they have those bumps along their journey, that they can either speak to me or men like me.Christopher Lewis [00:22:12]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?Thomas Batchelor [00:22:14]:
Other dads. I say just other dads. Other dads who are going through the same things that I'm going through. I walk through the school grounds and I see the way that dads interact with their kids and that inspires me. I really like seeing that.Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]:
Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for people to definitely consider and think about and see how they can incorporate that into their lives. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?Thomas Batchelor [00:22:38]:
Just be vulnerable. Speak about the challenges. Just try and be vulnerable. And that's all I can really say. Just be vulnerable. If you can be vulnerable and open and honest about where you're at, then I think most things will flow there.Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]:
Now, Thomas, I mentioned that you are a part of Sarah McConachie's book. We'll put a link in the notes today so people can read your story and check that out. If people want to find out any more about you, is there a best place for them to go?Thomas Batchelor [00:23:02]:
I suppose you could go to LinkedIn or I have got a Facebook account. I'm quite new to all this, so I've enjoyed it. So I don't really have anything else. I'd say probably just reach out to me, and if you want any more of my journey or any of the support groups or just to chat, then I'm always welcome to have a chat with someone who's struggling or just needs a ear to listen.Christopher Lewis [00:23:24]:
Well, Thomas, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey, the highs and the lows, and I truly wish you all the best.Thomas Batchelor [00:23:31]:
Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it.Christopher Lewis [00:23:32]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential source for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week. All geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Christopher Lewis [00:24:31]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. The world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be. -
Parenting is a journey filled with highs, lows, challenges, and joys, especially when raising daughters in today's complex world. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast we were joined by Evan Porter, founder of the popular parenting blog Dad Fixes Everything and author of the newly released book Dad Camp. He shared his fears and triumphs of being a father, the transition from blogging to writing a novel, and the importance of balancing personal identity with being an engaged parent.
The Emotional Rollercoaster of Fatherhood
From the moment he discovered he was going to become a father, Evan Porter experienced a whirlwind of emotions. Joy, excitement, fear, and self-doubt all mingled as he stepped into the role of parenting two daughters. Describing his initial reaction, Evan reflected, "It’s a blend of having wanted that and planned for that... but also this moment of, 'Oh my god. It’s really happening.'"
Porter was candid about the inherent fears tied to raising daughters. "The world is a very scary place for girls and for women," he shared, articulating a concern many fathers share. While the desire to shield his daughters from every possible harm loomed large, he acknowledged the reality that some things inevitably lie beyond parental control.
Understanding Individuality in Parenting
Evan's experience of parenting two daughters, each with distinct personalities, illustrates the universal truth that no two children are the same. He emphasized the necessity of tailoring his approach to fit each child’s unique needs and characteristics. This challenge to understand and bond with each daughter individually is a common thread in the tapestry of fatherhood.
With his eldest daughter, now nine years old, Porter finds joy in sharing more complex activities, such as teaching her solitaire and exploring new games. On the other hand, playful activities and light-hearted interactions dominate his relationship with both daughters, underscoring the importance of joy and laughter in strengthening family bonds.
The Struggle of Maintaining Personal Identity
One of the profound topics discussed was the struggle parents face in maintaining their personal identity amidst the demands of parenthood. Porter acknowledged a significant challenge: "Losing sight... of who you are outside of being a father." He articulated the struggle many modern dads encounter—the balancing act of hands-on parenting while trying to retain a piece of their pre-parenthood identity.
This theme of identity loss and the quest to reclaim it runs through his novel, Dad Camp. Written during the COVID-19 lockdown, the book explores a father’s journey to rediscover himself while navigating the ups and downs of parenthood. Through fiction, Porter was able to articulate the complex emotions and experiences common to many parents.
The Transition from Blogging to Novel Writing
Porter’s journey from running the blog Dad Fixes Everything to writing Dad Camp highlights an evolution in understanding and expressing the parenting experience. His blog began as an informative resource, answering practical queries new parents often face. However, novel writing allowed him to delve deeper into the emotional and psychological aspects of parenthood.
Inspired by his experiences and a need for creative expression during the pandemic, Porter found novel writing to be both a cathartic and fulfilling endeavor. The transition allowed him to address the theme of identity from a broader perspective, capturing the essence of fatherhood with authenticity and nuance.
Celebrating Dads in Fiction
Porter’s primary goal in his novel was to offer a relatable and affirming portrayal of modern fathers. He noted that the stereotypical image of the lazy sitcom dad still lingers, overshadowing the dedication and involvement most dads exhibit today. By creating a diverse ensemble of father characters, he hopes to celebrate the multifaceted nature of fatherhood and provide representation that resonates with real-life dads.
As he continues to promote Dad Camp, Porter is already crafting his next literary work, aimed at exploring similar themes of parenthood and identity. His journey as an author and a father is a testament to the continuous evolution and reflection that parenthood demands. Through his writing, Porter hopes to inspire other parents to embrace the complexities and joys of raising children, recognizing the importance of presence, identity, and connection.
In the end, as Evan poignantly observed, "You don’t want to miss out on the hard stuff... It’s not fun, but you’re gonna remember that and you’re gonna wanna have those memories." This candid advice encapsulates the heart of parenting—cherishing the moments, however challenging, and appreciating the journey shared with our children.
You can follow Evan Porter on Instagram and learn more about his work on his website.
TRANSCRIPT
Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to dads with daughters, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to talk to you, to walk alongside with you, and to be able to learn alongside you in regards to this journey that we're on in regard to raising our daughters. I know that I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. None of us are perfect when it comes to being a father, but being a father to a daughter as well. We are always going to have a little bit of gap in between the understanding of their experience as individuals, there's always going to be a little bit of a gap when it comes to the way that we think they think and we can always do something we can always do something daily, to be able to better engage to be able to better bother our daughters. And that's what this podcast is all about.Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]:
Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you to add some tools to your toolbox and to allow for you to be able to to learn, to grow, and to take some things along the way that will help you to be that dad that you wanna be. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that with those different experiences. And today, we got another great guest. Today we've got another great guest with us. Evan Porter is with us. And he is the founder of the popular parenting blog, Dad Fixes Everything and author of the new book called Dad Camp. Really excited to be able to have him on today to talk about his own journey as being a father of 2 daughters, and to talk a little bit more about his book and what he's learned along the way. Evan, thanks so much for being here today.Evan Porter [00:02:00]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, what a great fit. Dads with Daughters is a perfect tie in for the book, and I'm sure we'll get into it.Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]:
I am excited to have you here today. And first and foremost, 1 of the things that I love to do is I love having the power to turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back in time. And I know you got 2 daughters. So I wanna go all the way back to the beginning. When you first found out that you're going to be a dad to a daughter, what was going through your head?Evan Porter [00:02:23]:
Oh, wow. I think there's a blend of 1 have you know, having wanted that and planned for that and been trying for that, but also this moment, like, oh my god. It's really happening. Like, it's happening so soon. It's happening so fast. Both of both ends of that spectrum of emotion of being so excited that you got what you wanted and you got what you had planned for, but also being like, woah. Wait. Wait.Evan Porter [00:02:40]:
Wait. I'm not so sure I'm ready. Yeah. You know? Can we can we slow it down a little bit? But then, you know, kinda that gives just just gives way to the excitement of, you know, just really looking forward to to that next chapter. And, you know, I've always wanted to be a dad and that was really You know, I talked to a lot of dads of daughters that talk about the fact that it's a little scary, not only to be a father, but to be a father to a daughter, especially at the beginning as you're kind of fumbling a little bit and trying to figure out kind of those first steps and trying to figure out what does it mean to be a dad, to a daughter.
Christopher Lewis
As you look at the years that you've had thus far with your daughters, what would you say has been your biggest fear or is your biggest fear in raising daughters?Evan Porter [00:03:15]:
I think that the world is a very scary place for girls and for women. And I think that's 1 of, like, the biggest things that I worry about is there's only so much I can do to to keep them safe. And I can teach them, and I can protect them as much as I can. But it is a scary world out there for women and for girls, and it's harder on them in in so many ways. And part of me wanted the opportunity to have a boy at some point just to put another good man out into the world and make the world a little bit of a better place in that regard too. And so not feeling like I have any control over that, I think, is is really challenging. It gives me nightmares.Christopher Lewis [00:03:45]:
Now you do have 2 daughters and anytime you add more than 1 to the mix, you've gotta figure things out in a whole different way. I know in my own experience, both my daughters have very different personalities, and I've had to really work hard to be able to understand them individually and build those unique bonds with each of them. So talk to me about for your 2 daughters and your own experience, what are the favorite things that you and each of your daughters love to share with each other?Evan Porter [00:04:14]:
That's a great question. Yeah. They are so different. I think the nature versus nurture is settled. It's settled in my mind. I think that they are completely different people, completely different ends of many different spectrums. So that's been so, so interesting interesting to think that the way we raise them probably hasn't changed drastically from 1 to the other, but just there's these things in their brains that are wired differently and they're completely, completely different people. And so they each require kind of their own approach. And we have completely, completely different people. And so they each require kind of their own approach, and we have our own relationships. So with my oldest 1 who's 9, I mean, we just love to goof around. I think both I'd love to goof around with both of them. I love to be the silly fun dad throwing them around in the pool and flipping them in the pool. Anytime we can laugh together, playing games or just cracking jokes or making up games on the spot, I think with both of them, that's really, really effective and some of my favorite parts of of being a dad.Evan Porter [00:04:57]:
My older 1 is also kind of getting into just becoming a little adult person. So you can do more complicated things with her. You teach her new things and games and teaching her, like, how to play solitaire or, like, new card games that we can play together. And so I think that's a big theme. I love to just play with them and playing them with them in different ways. And that's just the best part of being a dad. So I try to get as much out of that as possible. Parent is never easy.Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]:
There are ups, there's downs, there's positives, there's negatives, and it's always changing. What's been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter?
Evan Porter [00:05:27]:
I think maybe we're skipping ahead a little bit into some of the some of the book inspiration and things like that. But I think losing sight a little bit of who you are outside of being a father and being a parent because it is all consuming. And I think, like, this new generation of dads are is doing so much, and they're very hands on. They're very active and very engaged in it. The slice of the pie that is not related to your kids gets smaller and smaller and smaller. I think you, you know, you lose sight of hobbies and you it's harder to keep in touch with friends and you have less time for yourself and for the other parts of your life. And I think that's a big challenge. Even though parenting your kids is so, so rewarding, you still need that other stuff.Evan Porter [00:06:00]:
And I'm always, like, trying to calibrate and find ways to, like, hold on to, like, little pieces of who I was before kids and, like, who I am outside of being just a father. So I haven't found the magic answer to that quite yet. That's 1 of that's a daily struggle and definitely something that you have to constantly work on. And there's not once you to be honest, I I would say that once you feel like you finally hit your groove, something changes and you have to adjust and change yet again. So it is ever going and ever changing and that's the 1 thing of fatherhood that's the constant is that there is no constant and that you will continuously have to make adjustments along the way. Now you kind of talked about the new book, but I wanna start first at the fact that you have a blog that you started a number of years back, called Dad Fixes Everything. And I guess first and foremost, what made you decide that you wanted to start this blog to be able to talk to other fathers or talk more about your own experiences with a larger audience?Evan Porter [00:07:03]:
It was an outlet for me to practice writing and not the kind of writing that I've done in the book, but marketing and copywriting and blogging and freelance writing and journalism and kind of all these other pieces that I've done over my career and putting them to work for myself. And so I was a new parent at the time. I think my oldest daughter was around 2 or 3 when I launched it, and I was kind of finding myself with all these questions and things that I was wondering about and very like fact based things like what's the difference between, size 4 and 4 T and kids clothes? What is the difference between a mini crib and a crib and a bassinet and a rocker and a glider and, like, kind of all these, like, sort of okay. Like, I need to figure this out. And so kind of researching these things and presenting the information in a way that helped me learn and that hopefully was helpful to other people, that was kind of the inspiration behind the blog. It was just a great outlet to practice to practice writing and practice, some of those other skills that I was talking about.Christopher Lewis [00:07:55]:
I am someone that also had a blog that I started back in 2007. And it kind of grew with me, in my own experiences, I know what you're talking about, and definitely have been there and have done that. And I also am an author. And I know how much time, effort, patience and more goes into a writing of a book, let alone a novel that is as large as your book is. So you went from having this blog, Dad Fixes Everything, to over the years then getting inspired to be able to write a new book, a new book that just came out just recently called Dad Camp. And I guess talk to me about that transition it from writing in a blog sense to now writing a novel that really incorporates in and brings forward a story of a father and daughters to a larger audience as well? What was the inspiration for the book? And what made you decide that you wanted to put all that time and effort into creating this?Evan Porter [00:09:03]:
Feeling a little bored and a little bit stuck with the kinds of work that I was doing and wanting a new challenge. It wasn't my first time doing creative writing. I'd written, screenplays, in my early twenties. I'd done some screenwriting, and I missed writing fiction and just like writing pure creatively that wasn't informational. It wasn't for marketing. It wasn't for copywriting. It wasn't for journalism. It was just for fun and just for the experience of doing it and and for storytelling.Evan Porter [00:09:26]:
And so I just wanted to revisit that again. I took many, many years off of doing that, and I think it was in that kind of COVID lockdown time when I was really cooped up and really feeling stale and stuck and just needing a spark, needing something that was just for me. And so there was something very meta about it because the book deals with so much with that loss of identity as a parent. And for me, writing the book was an attempt to kinda get that back a little bit. There were a couple ways.Christopher Lewis [00:09:50]:
Talk to me a little bit about that, the loss of identity, but also the interplay of fiction and nonfiction, and being able to incorporate some of your own experiences as a father in to this fictionalized account of a father with his daughters?Evan Porter [00:10:07]:
Yeah. Because we touched on having trouble keeping your hobbies and staying in touch with friends and, you know, finding time to exercise or whatever it is that you like to do. And then sort of during COVID time, that was all cranked up to 11. I remember being in the house with the kids. My littlest was just a baby at the time, really doing nothing but taking care of them all day long and never really leaving the house, never seeing anybody, never never doing anything. And so that was really, really tough. And I also felt guilty, like, oh, I should be enjoying this time with my kids. Like, we're spending so much time together.Evan Porter [00:10:35]:
This should be fun. Like, we should be making, like, happy memories and, like, kinda, like, dealing with that that guilt of not enjoying it more. And a lot of those ideas just kind of came out in the book and it felt like a natural thing for me to explore via fiction. And again, you know, there's that sort of meta piece where the dad in the story is going through some of those challenges as well. Of course, not in, like, the COVID environment. Chose to, like, that COVID didn't exist in this story world that I was building. But he was having those same issues losing touch with who he was before. And so I think the early drafts of the book had a lot of heart and a lot of passion and, like, kind of rawness to them because I was, like, living what I was writing about so thoroughly.Evan Porter [00:11:12]:
And then, of course, the novel evolved so much from those early drafts. But, you know, a lot of the the heart of the story was there from the very beginning and was based on kinda what I was going through at that time.Christopher Lewis [00:11:20]:
So as dads are reading this book or anyone that's reading this book, what are you hoping that they take out of this? And what are you hoping that they can then take from this and incorporate into their own life?Evan Porter [00:11:33]:
I want dads to feel seen by the story in some way, even if they don't identify with the main character. There's a whole cast of them cast of different dads at this camp that they go to. And I tried to represent different different types of dads, I mean, different archetypes and kind of uncovering the layers of of all those characters. And I want any any parent really, but especially dads, to be able to see themselves in the story and just kind of feel validated or understood a little bit. I think it's kind of it's tough. I think the sort of ghost of the lazy sitcom dad still hangs over us heavily as a society. And it's I think dads are are really doing a good job for the most part these days and and are not always seen and not always appreciated the way that I think they could be. And I just wanna have good good representation of of dads in fiction, and I think that's what I tried to accomplish here.Evan Porter [00:12:17]:
Even though each of them had their own flaws and their own challenges, I just wanted to kind of, like, have a celebration of, like, some of the good stuff too.Christopher Lewis [00:12:23]:
So now this book is out into the world. And I guess as you look at the future, what is the future for you as a writer, as a father? Are there things that you really would love to be able to do to be able to take what you've done here and take it to a different level or to move in a different direction to tell different stories. What's next?Evan Porter [00:12:42]:
I'm working on another book. I can't say too much about it just yet. In the middle of promoting this 1 and doing doing interviews and all the kind of stuff that I'm doing, I'm working on number 2. So I'm looking forward to being able to talk about that soon. Think it'll have some similar themes in terms of parenthood and moms and dads and all sorts of caregivers and new parents will hopefully be able to relate to it. But this whole process has been so interesting because, you know, I did it just for me and just as something that I wanted to do for myself. And now I'm getting to, like, share that with my family and my kids. I just did my first in person book event at a bookstore, like, with an inner like, a q and a with another author and a signing.Evan Porter [00:13:16]:
And, you know, my daughters were sitting in the front row of the seats kinda, like, staring at me. Like so it was very, very fun to, like, be able to share this with them. And I'm going up to Baltimore in my hometown a couple weeks to do another event, and I'm bringing my oldest daughter with me, and she's gonna kinda share in that experience. It'll be a little adventure for the 2 of us. So and I'm just trying to enjoy it as much as I possibly can, and I hope my, my girls are are proud of me.Christopher Lewis [00:13:37]:
So talk to me about what has been the response from your daughters, as you've read either the whole book to them, or parts of the book to them? And how does that response inspire you or push you to be able to continue that writing?Evan Porter [00:13:53]:
Well, my 3 year old has no idea what's going on. Right? She knows that I wrote a book and she knows what it looks like. She's seen the cover and everything and so she could point it out. She sees it. But she just thinks it's cool that we're having parties and going to book stores and running around. My oldest it is an adult book, I should say. Some people hear the concept and they think that it's for 11 year olds to read, but it's really a fully adult book that's from the adult point of view. And so but my 9 year old thinks it's really cool and she wants to read it.Evan Porter [00:14:16]:
I've let her read little snippets of it here and there. And I think she's really proud and excited. And I think that there was a quote from James Cameron that was watching his documentary about his deep sea diving. And he said something like, even more than your presence, your kids need your example. And so, yeah, I hope that they get something out of watching me kind of, like, pursue my dreams. And even if it doesn't register in the moment, maybe 1 day they'll look back on it and and be inspired by it.Christopher Lewis [00:14:39]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? In 1 word, what is fatherhood?Evan Porter [00:14:48]:
Love is the first word that came to mind.Christopher Lewis [00:14:51]:
Now, when was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a doctor?Evan Porter [00:14:57]:
I'll just give you 1 that pops that pops to mind. We were at a feel like a big water slide water park place, and my oldest was scared to get on the big water slide. And I was able to give her, like, a really good fatherly pep talk and get her to work up the courage to do it. And then she was, like, really happy that she did it. And my brother was there with us, and he texted me later. And he was like, that was a great dad speech you gave her. And, he was really impressed with my ability to get her to be brave. And, yeah, that 1 stuck with me. I felt it was cool that I did it and that somebody else recognized it too.Christopher Lewis [00:15:27]:
Now if I was to talk to your kids, and your 3 year old might not say much, but if I was to talk to them, how would they describe who you're dad?Evan Porter [00:15:33]:
Fun and silly. You know, we talked earlier. I'd I'd, like, love to get in the pool with them and throw them around and flip them in the air and, you know, make them laugh. Like, I'll do anything to make them laugh. And that's what I live for. And so I think that's probably what they would say.Christopher Lewis [00:15:46]:
In 10 years from now, what would you say?Evan Porter [00:15:47]:
Remember that I was there all the time. Like, I think that I want them to know that I was always there at the swim meets and the sports games and the school play and never had to miss it for anything else. So regardless of any other way that I might let them down, down, hopefully they just remember that I was always like right there in their corner.Christopher Lewis [00:16:03]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Evan Porter [00:16:04]:
It's my own dad. He passed away a number of years ago, but he was a fantastic dad, a great man, very gentle soul. And he taught me so much about being a good writer or being a good dad and being a good man. So I, you know, he's not around anymore, butChristopher Lewis [00:16:19]:
Now you've shared a lot about your experiences thus far, and some of the things that you've learned along the way. As we finish up today and you think about all all dads out there, what's 1 piece of advice you'd wanna give to give to any father?Evan Porter:
You don't wanna miss out on the hard stuff. It is so hard. And, know, there's this funny thing that happens. I think anytime there's a challenge or or a day or your plans don't go the way you thought they would and you're frustrated and tired and sad or whatever. Like, I feel like you always look back and appreciate it and find it funny or it's it becomes a good story or a happy memory in some way. You know, I always use this example of taking the kids to the beach. It's like so much work and it's hot and it's sandy and sometimes it feels like everybody's miserable, but then you look back and you're like, oh, we had such a nice day at the beach. For some reason, our brains are funny like that.
And I think like you don't be the guy who didn't change the poopy diapers. I know it's not fun, but you're gonna remember that and you're gonna wanna like have those memories. Trust me.Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]:
Now if people wanna find out more about the book, about your blog, about other things that you're doing, where's the best place where's the bestEvan Porter [00:17:21]:
You can follow me on Instagram where I talk a lot about the book and my my journey writing it and promoting it. That's at words by Evan Porter on Instagram. And words by Evan Porter dot com is my website where I share everything about the book and what I'm working on and all sorts of fun stuff like that.Christopher Lewis [00:17:37]:
Well, Evan, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for putting this great book out into the world. Thank you. Thank you for the great questions. Have fun. If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be.Christopher Lewis [00:17:58]:
We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and power daughters and be the best dad that you can be.We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling You're the best dad you can be.
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Navigating the Journey of Fatherhood
Fatherhood is a complex and rewarding journey that demands a unique balance of strength, empathy, and patience. For fathers of daughters, the stakes can feel particularly high. In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosts Dr. Christopher Lewis, Michael Ramos, and Steven Manchester delve into the nuances of raising daughters, from the initial trepidation to the ongoing quest to raise strong, independent women.
Embracing the Journey Together
Dr. Christopher Lewis opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of community and learning from one another's experiences. "All of our journeys is a little bit different," he notes, "we can learn from each other... as long as you're willing to open yourself up to learning." This sentiment sets the stage for an enlightening conversation with guests who have both navigated this journey and sought to share their wisdom with others.
The Initial Fear and Responsibility
When asked about their first reactions to learning they were going to be fathers to daughters, both Steven Manchester and Michael Ramos admit to feelings of terror. Such an emotional response is not uncommon; many fathers experience fear when anticipating the responsibilities of raising a daughter. Manchester explains, "I needed to do it the right way... kids don't necessarily listen, but they do watch." Ramos, reflecting on his own experience, highlights the ongoing nature of parenthood: "I just had a little baby girl and I brought her home from the hospital... I was going to learn every single day and never stop learning."
Addressing the Biggest Fears
Lewis probes deeper, asking about their biggest fears. Here, Manchester articulates the weight of setting a high standard, "I want me to be the example of what she should expect." For Ramos, the sentiment is similar. He emphasizes the importance of modeling respectful behavior to set high expectations for how his daughters should be treated by others, and also how his sons should treat others.
Overcoming Challenges
Every parent faces challenges, but raising daughters comes with its own unique set of difficulties. Manchester likens raising boys to "playing checkers" and raising daughters to "playing chess." The complexity, he notes, requires a deeper level of empathy and understanding. Ramos concurs, describing the intricate personalities of his daughters and the importance of adapting his approach to meet each of their unique needs.
Building Strong, Unique Relationships
Fostering strong relationships with daughters involves more than just being present; it requires emotional vulnerability and genuine connection. Ramos shares that learning to be nurturing, sensitive, and empathetic was crucial for forging these bonds. Manchester underscores the importance of having individual relationships with each child, independent of the rest of the family.
The Genesis of "The Dad Bag"
The conversation then shifts to the inspiration behind The Dad Bag, a book co-authored by Manchester and Ramos. From the anxious moments of early fatherhood to the realization that parenting lacks an instruction manual, Ramos recounts his journey towards writing a guide that offered practical, heartfelt advice for new fathers. Manchester, an accomplished author, saw an opportunity to create something impactful, noting, "This book has the potential to have more of a positive impact than most of the stuff that I've written."
Lessons from The Dad Bag
The Dad Bag uses the metaphor of a "dad bag" filled with symbolic items to represent life lessons. These items serve as visual aids to reinforce critical messages, making the lessons accessible and memorable for both the father and child. The book aims to break through stereotypes and offer a new model of fatherhood defined by empathy, vulnerability, and engagement.
Be There and Don't Give Up
As the podcast concludes, Dr. Lewis asks for their final piece of advice to fathers. Manchester succinctly states, "Be there," while Ramos elaborates, “Don't give up. You got this." Their words resonate as a reminder that fatherhood is a journey filled with highs and lows, but with presence and perseverance, every dad can make a profound impact on their daughters' lives. For more insights and to get your copy of *The Dad Bag*, visit [Amazon](https://www.amazon.com). Fatherhood is a journey best taken together, learning and growing every step of the way. Here's to raising strong, independent women, one day at a time.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guys to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women, Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being on this journey with you, an opportunity to be able to welcome alongside you as you're working to raise those strong independent women that you want to grow up in society today. And all of our journeys is a little bit different. We're all on a unique journey, but we can learn from each other. We have an opportunity to learn from each other. And every day that we walk on this journey, there's something new that we can learn from the person next door, from the person on the other side of the earphones. It doesn't matter as long as you're willing to open yourself up to learning. And that's what's important.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]:
And every week I work to be able to help you to meet new people, fathers or others with resources, people that can help you to be able to see fatherhood in a little bit different way. Every father fathers in a little bit different way. And there's a lot of resources that are out there as well. Today, we've got 2 great dads with us. Steven Manchester and Michael Ramos is with us today. They both are fathers of 4. We're gonna be talking about their journey as fathers, but also authors. We're gonna be talking about a book that they put out just recently called The Dad Bag, and we're gonna be talking about that as well.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:27]:
So I'm really excited to have them here today and have you learn from their journeys. Steven, Michael, thanks so much for being here today.Steven Manchester [00:01:33]:
Thanks for having us, Chris.Michael Ramos [00:01:34]:
Thank you very much, Chris.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time because I have that power and I love to be able to have our dads do some self reflection here. And I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a daughter. What was going through your heads?Steven Manchester [00:01:52]:
Tara. Absolutely, Tara. I think for me, Chris, it was a lot of weight. Right? Because I needed to do it the right way. And we've, you know, as you know, and Mike knows clearly, kids don't necessarily listen, but they do watch. So from the moment we had our daughter, Isabella, I can honestly say she's made me a better person, a better man. And I've been really conscious of what I've done and the things I've said because of wanting to be that dad to her.Michael Ramos [00:02:13]:
I think Steve probably echoed my exact sentiments with Tara, uncertainty. I know I figured it out. I I knew I'd figure it out eventually, and some things would be innate, but there were so many questions that I didn't have. And I think the answer is that I didn't have to questions. And I won't tell you where the dad bag came from yet, but it does directly connect to the moment that I realized, like, I just had a little baby girl and I brought her home from the the hospital. But I think I learned within the first few months that this was a journey and not a destination being a dad, specifically to girls, that I was going to learn every single day and never stop learning because things would always change. And that's exactly what has happened and continues to happen, even with the oldest one being 19.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:58]:
Now, both of you said that your first reactions were terror. And that being said, I hear that from a lot of dads, especially dads with daughters, that there is fear, the fear going along with raising daughters. Talk to me about your biggest fear in raising a daughter.Steven Manchester [00:03:12]:
It's my true belief that our job is to to raise them, right? Not keep them. So even from the time that they're young, again, it's all about setting that example, but whoever she ends up with or whoever she has contact with as far as boys or men, I want me to be the example of what she should expect, right? Like the bar should be raised very high. So for me, the tarot really comes from the weight of responsibility, right? Of getting it right. You know what I mean? And it's never gonna be perfect, we all know that. God knows I've made my fair share of mistakes, but the intentions of being conscious of the fact that listen, I need to do the best I can do so that she understands what, you know, what she deserves. Right?Michael Ramos [00:03:56]:
And I think for me, it was very much the same. It's funny because I tell the story and it it applies to both my boys my boy and my girls. But, as far as Steve said, setting the bar. I always wanted my girls to know what the expectation was from the boys that would they would come in contact with. And then I wanted to be the same example for my son so he would know how to treat all of the people, and lead by example in that way. And and somebody had once shared a story, and that's where I learned this from. They shared a story once with me and they said, I want if my daughter goes out on her 1st date at whatever age it is and somebody treats her disrespectfully, I want it to be a red flag. I don't want it to be something that feels normal or feels like she's seen or experienced at home.Michael Ramos [00:04:48]:
So although I think that's who I am anyways, is to be very respectful at all times. It especially made me conscious of the fact that I need to be respectful at all times in my treatment of all women, whether it was a partner, a mother, a grandmother, a sister, because that's the example that I was setting for them.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:04]:
And raising kids is never easy. There is definitely high points, but there is challenges, there's hard parts. Talk to me about the hardest part in raising a daughter.Steven Manchester [00:05:14]:
Well, I can tell you from experience, you know, I've raised a couple sons and that was like playing checkers. And then along comes my girl and now I'm playing chess at an advanced level. So it's amazing. I mean, you almost have to become an empath in a sense where it's not just the way that you think, it's the way that you feel and trying to understand how they feel and and providing what they need. So for me, the hard part was, I guess, getting out of my way and not trying to fix everything for her. Just being able to listen and just be there for her.Michael Ramos [00:05:40]:
Again, similar. It was being able to determine when I needed to listen and when I needed to solve the problem because they're very different and there will never be any instruction given. There's almost an expectation that and I said because I've had hundreds of conversations with my 2 teenage daughters where sometimes I got it right and sometimes I was listening when I should have been solving and sometimes I was solving when I should have been listening. And I think to answer the question more specifically, what's been the most difficult part for me, I think has has been learning their personalities because I feel like they're a little more deeper and complex than my boy, and I can only draw from that example. But my 3 daughters are all very different from each other. And there's an expression in psychology that they use where you peel the layers of the onion back to get what's inside, to get to what, you know, the deep root of what's inside is. And one daughter wants me to peel the onion very, very slowly over the course of 45 minutes to get to that. The other daughter wants me to smash the onion, which is more my style.Michael Ramos [00:06:45]:
Get what's inside. And then the other one wants me to peel it, like, ever so slowly, then start smashing the load, then go back to peeling. You know, so I think that's been the most difficult part is trying to understand how complex and beautiful their personalities are, how unique they are, and then how I need to then respond differently, learn and grow and do things that don't feel natural to me because my personality tells me to handle everything one way, but they are very different human beings and need me to handle things differently.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:11]:
Now you talk about the fact that every child is unique, and that's definitely the case. You can have 2 kids that you come from the same parents, and they can be completely different individuals, and we always see that. So talk to me about with your kids, especially your daughters, how have you been able to build those strong, unique relationships with each of your daughters? And what's your favorite thing that you do and share with your daughters?Michael Ramos [00:07:42]:
So important to me. I think learning that it was okay to be nurturing, learning that it was okay to be sensitive, learning that it was okay to cry. And I'm not saying breakdown crying every 15 minutes throughout the day, but learning that it was okay for me to have emotions because society has dictated to me that I can only be tough, that men don't cry and that men don't have emotions and reactions like that. So I was able to connect with my daughters because I was able to be vulnerable. I was able to connect with my daughters because I knew empathy, because if I didn't know empathy, how could I understand them and be compassionate and be empathetic if I couldn't be that myself? So through a 13 week curriculum that I became a nurturing father's facilitator and worked with a lot of dads and some incarcerated dads. I learned a lot of things that later on in life where I was I was able to, to apply. But I think those things were so critical in order for me to be able to connect with them at the level that that I do where they're so comfortable. They'll talk to me about literally anything.Steven Manchester [00:08:42]:
That's not gonna be easy to follow, Chris. That was fantastic. But I will just add to that and say that for me and Bella, it was just 1st and foremost just being there, making sure that she knows that I'm a vet. I don't care what it is like I'm there. And secondly, I think it's so important to have relationships with each of your kids that are independent of everybody else in the family. So there are times the whole family is doing things, and then there's times where I just go out to to lunch with my daughter. And then we talk about and it's a a relationship that I've established just between her and I, and I think that's where the trust is born and it's kind of built on. I don't ever want her to play, you know, need to feel like she used to play favorites, but it's, it's also, it's very, very important to me if you're feeling down, you'll just need to go to your mother.Steven Manchester [00:09:23]:
You can come to me as well. And to Mike's point, being aware of the fact that I need to have that empathy, I need to show that empathy, and And I may not have all the answers. And even if I do, she probably doesn't wanna hear them anyway. So again, it's just being available and and, making sure she knows that I have her back, which is an odd way to put it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:42]:
But Now I mentioned at the beginning that the 2 of you came together to write a newer book called dad bag or the dad bag. And, I guess I wanna go back before I ask you some questions about the book itself. Let's go back to the genesis of this because I know, Steve, you've been an author for many years, your style of writing is a bit different than what this is. So so talk to me about how the 2 of you came together and why you decided to come up with this concept and put it onto paper.Michael Ramos [00:10:12]:
So, let me just stop by saying I just need to give a little kudos to the amazing human being, father, and friend that Steve is because Steve Manchester, I've known as an author and I've known as a friend. I don't consider myself to be an author. This was something very important to me, and he's done presentations for me and in front of dad's groups and for private agency and also some state agencies. So I knew that he would be the perfect person. Where it came from was early, you asked, the terror feeling of knowing that I was having a little girl, but also just like a child, period. I remember bringing my daughter home from the hospital and putting her on the floor in the car seat. And I was sitting in the living room by myself, and I looked down at her in the car seat, sitting there between my legs. And I said, geez, what do I do now? And I went, well, I guess I should take her out.Michael Ramos [00:10:58]:
That's a stop. Let me take her out of the car seat. And I mean, I kinda knew what to do, but, like, I also didn't. So I figured it out, stumbled along over the next, like, you know, week or 2, and then the remote control broke for the TV. So I went to RadioShack for anybody under 40 who's listening. That's, an electronics saw that once was in business. But I went to RadioShack and I bought a new new remote control for the TV. I brought it home and I opened it up.Michael Ramos [00:11:27]:
It was like $6.99, and it had 12 pages of instructions in 5 different languages. And I said, this remote control comes with that many pages of instructions in so many different languages. And I just brought a beautiful little human being home from the hospital with, like, no directions whatsoever, with no instruction, with no anything. And I said, gee, someone should write a book, not only just for parents to come home from, like, you know, the the hospital with, but especially dads. And that's where the dad bag came from. Steve and I had already worked together doing some fatherhood work, him mostly doing some presentations. And I was already doing nurturing fathers and also some a lot of presentations nationally. And I reached out to him and just just like that, he said, love it.Michael Ramos [00:12:14]:
Love the idea. Let's do it. And I know that fatherhood is so important to him. I knew it just would be a great marriage to, get the book written.Steven Manchester [00:12:22]:
I gotta tell you, it was a no brainer for me because first and foremost, I really admire Mike. The things that he's done in the community, for the state, the impact that he's had on people, how can you not get your wagon to that? So some of the themes that I've had in my writing over the last 30 years really has a lot to do with fatherhood. Mike and I are really big on there's a big difference between being a father and being a dad, and it's like kinda hammering that stuff home. I also have a background in the prison system. I worked for the Department of Correction for 10 years. So I saw guys that were leaving without a clue on how to father their children. And you think, what a tragedy, right? Because generationally, that's, you know, that's potentially, you know, absolutely awful, right? So, it made perfect sense. And when we got together Mike's concepts, we were able to flesh them out.Steven Manchester [00:13:04]:
It took some time. We had to find the right illustrator in Stephanie Grassi, who's just a wonderful person as well. So this hasn't been any work at all. For me, it's been a joy. And I really think, I mean, I normally write adult novels, write 90,000 words. This book, I don't know what even it came in at, but I think this book has the potential to have more of a positive impact than most of the stuff that I've written. And I I'm grateful to Mike for that opportunity to be able to be a part ofMichael Ramos [00:13:29]:
it. Ironic. I'm more grateful to you. So that's really nice.Steven Manchester [00:13:33]:
And I I do mean that sincerely, right, for the people that are listening. I think, you know, Michael will get into this a little bit too, but it's not a bad bag, but it's really I think it's for the family. I think it's for the entire family. I think it's for the dad kind of being able to help mom out or step up and and, you know, do what he's supposed to do. But in a way that what I love about this is it's really almost an instruction guide that's disguised as a children's book. So if dad's reading that to to, you know, his child and dad's also learning as well. Right? And I'm a firm believer we're all in the same boat. Right? It's just you gotta pick up a paddle and start rowing, and I think that's what this book's about.Michael Ramos [00:14:08]:
There's so much data and statistics out there that prove that mom's health is increased significantly when dads are engaged. There's factors and indicators for breastfeeding that more moms breastfeed and are likely to breastfeed if they have dads engaged. And it makes sense why. And it makes sense that there's moms that are under less stress when dads are involved because dads are helping out. And we know parenting for mom or dad, because both are critically important, is very difficult if you're doing it alone. I mean, I think that's also one the things that we like to drive home is that dads really need to be engaged and involved. And the difference between being a dad and being a father is exactly that. It's not just buying a ball for your kid and saying, oh, here, I bought this ball for you.Michael Ramos [00:14:49]:
And then going in the house, it's stopping to teach the rules, to play the game, to, you know, to teach kids how to self regulate. It's all of those things. And while you're doing that, mom gets a break too and vice versa.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:02]:
Now in the book, one of the things that I noticed was that the father in the story talks about the importance of effective communication. How do you think his approach to communication differs from the conventional methods and why do you think it's effective?Michael Ramos [00:15:18]:
I think it's because mostly what I was saying before about empathy and compassion and being able to look at the communication from a different perspective and not from the more conventional model. And although I I think there's been a lot of movement more recently with lots of men in this country and lots of dads. I still think there's a lot of dads that still believe that they are the disciplinary, that they shouldn't cry, that they shouldn't have emotion, that they are supposed to be strong and tough. And you can be those things too, but you can also have compassion, be empathetic, and be an engaged dad. It'd be nurturing. And I think that's the difference in the approach. That's the difference in the patience. That's probably a keyword there.Michael Ramos [00:16:02]:
The patience that it takes to develop those relationships and understand that with 3 daughters, the dad in the book was specifically just the boy and the girl, but the dad in the book's ability to understand and that that's what it took in order to connect with the children and was that a level of patience to really understand them and be able to see that empathy and that compassion.Steven Manchester [00:16:24]:
For me, like the communication, this book in many respects is, I think we're trying to break through some stereotypes. And when you look at a generation just prior to us, my father and his brothers and my grandparents, and it went from you to be seen and not heard to my father would listen, but empathy, I'm not sure, was at the top of the list. He was putting food on the table, shoes on your feet, and if you cry, then he didn't care for it. So for me, and I'm gonna just switch real quickly right to my sons. If my sons fell down and scraped their knee, I don't I don't want anybody crying. Right? We we talked about that. But if there's something that really hurt them and it hurt their soul, I'll sit and cry with them. And it was so, so important, like, when my parents passed, I watched my kids watching me and I didn't hold back.Steven Manchester [00:17:05]:
And I also talked about it. So Mike brought up the word earlier, vulnerable, and I think that's the key here. I believe some men see things as weakness, right, when they show their feelings. For me, that's true strength. I mean, that's strength to be able to show your children, I also have feelings, I also mourn and grieve and, you know, I'm happy and I'm sad. By sharing that with your children, you also give them permission to do the same. And I think it just bonds you closer. Right? My kids are more apt to come to me because I'm not going to judge them based on their emotional reaction.Steven Manchester [00:17:33]:
And I think that's one of the things I really love about this book. And Mike's concepts, even, you know, very early on from boys playing with a doll or girls asking questions, like, for me, it was like kinda let's let's just break through that and be honest. Just be vulnerable and honest. And and I think that's where the magic is in this book.Michael Ramos [00:17:49]:
You know, to expand a little bit on what Steve said with a slightly different concept, it also makes me feel strong to be able to care for my my children. So, yeah, it's a it's a sign of strength, like like Steve said, to be able to be vulnerable and to be able to give your children permission to feel those feelings too. But it also makes me feel strong to change a diaper and to be able to cook food and to be able to care for my children and nurture my children because culturally and also generationally, historically in my family, that's not something that men do. Men don't change diapers. Men don't wash clothes, do laundry. They don't do any of those things. I've always seen that as a sign of weakness. It makes me feel strong to know that I can take care of myself and my children at all times if I need to.Michael Ramos [00:18:31]:
It feels completely opposite to me if I have to rely on someone else to do those things because I I'm just not or I don't know how. So also, I think that's to answer your question too a little bit, that's probably a less conventional approach, but I think that's changing and I'm very happy that that's changing.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]:
I noticed also in the book that the book is called The Dad Bag. The father uses various items from his dad bag as symbolic representations of life lessons. Can you discuss the significance of the metaphor that you're using here and how it adds depth to the narrative?Steven Manchester [00:19:03]:
I think this is very intentional, right, right from the beginning that we were gonna use a backpack called the dad bag, much like a mom would have a diaper bag. The dad has the because this book was written really for for families and and children from, you know, because this book was written really for families and children from 5, you know, 5 years old on. So to look at visuals and then hear the narrative that goes along with it, I think it helps the dad or the protagonist within the story, as well as the dad who's reading the book, you know, to to his child, right? Whether it be a boy or a girl. For me, it's just again, I think kids are very visual and I think it helps to carry those lessons. It's easy to remind a kid, if you're talking to them about a certain lesson in years and a prop, later on, all you have to do is pull up the prop, and the message has been received again.Michael Ramos [00:19:50]:
I love the representation of each item, and I feel like there could be a 1,000 things in every dad bag because of all the the life lessons, but that's where the onion peeling, that's a very personal family specific story with one of my daughters. We've we've talked about this. She'll actually reference it and say, papa, I need you to peel the onion. So we use that. It's a metaphor and it's something that, you know, you way of addressing and and introducing something in the book, but it it comes from draws from a an an actual experience that's really helped with communication that's been used a number of times where one daughter will say, you could just bust the onion because, like like, I'm going out tonight. Like, my friends are picking up in 10 minutes. You know what I mean? Or they'll say, I'm a you could just bust that onion open. So with that, everybody that ends up buying, I'm gonna send onions to everyone.Michael Ramos [00:20:39]:
No. Nobody's getting onions. I'm just I'm just kidding.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:42]:
Now I'm not gonna give up the end of the book, but I will say that the father at the end does share a heart felt letter that he wrote to his kids before they're born. How do you think this letter really encapsulated or encapsulates the father's hopes and aspirations for his children's future?Steven Manchester [00:20:59]:
I think it's a representation of the responsibility that he feels. I think the important piece here, Chris, is that he wrote it before that child was born. So to Mike's earlier point, it's so important to learn each of their personalities and to be able to almost retrofit how you father, right, or how you parent. What I like about that piece of the book is that he wrote it from his heart before this child was born, right? So these are his aspirations, his dreams, and also the responsibility he feels, right, to be the right dad for this kid. And inDr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]:
the end, as people are reading this book, as they are reading it to their own kids, what are you hoping that the fathers that are reading this are gaining from it personally? And what are you hoping that their families gain from it?Michael Ramos [00:21:39]:
I'm hoping that at the very, very least, just a sliver, if the dad learns or a light turns on that there is more than one way and that there's a possibility to think outside of the box and it helps him have less fear, not have that terrified feeling. And that's why the goal for me is to have this this book literally in every single hospital in the country. Because for me, it doesn't make sense that any dad should ever leave the maternity ward of a hospital with a human being without having this book in their hand because it exists. And because it's an instructional manual, it just makes sense to me because then dads don't have to be afraid. Dads won't buy remote control that have more instructions than their child's will have that they will have brought their child to him from the hospital and it'll help with that fear. And that's what I hope the dad gets from it. And if the dad gets that, the family gets everything. So I don't even need to say what the family will get from it because if the dad, they all win.Steven Manchester [00:22:31]:
That's a great answer. For me, I get, you know, I I've read this book 7000 times. Right? So you get to the end of it. It's almost like a sub, like a subtle contract, right, between the father and his child, where it's like, I'm setting some expectations for you, but really what's happening is he's setting expectations for himself. He's kinda laying it out there for his daughter or his son. So I love that piece of it. We don't use a sledgehammer to, you know, slam people over the head with it, but dad legitimately sits down and reads this to his daughter, then there are some expectations that are there. And so to to Mike's point, right, some of the fear hopefully gets dispelled and and this dad understands stands.Steven Manchester [00:23:05]:
He's not the only one in the boat. We got a lot of people in the boat, so stop rowing. Mike's tying.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]:
And now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as dads. So I'm gonna ask you both. So first and foremost, in one word, what is fatherhood? Love.Steven Manchester [00:23:21]:
I'm gonna say commitment because you use love.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:24]:
Now when was the time that you felt that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Steven Manchester [00:23:31]:
Never. I'll say the same. I can't use one word, but it still hasn't happened. And I'm not sure it will until I draw my last breath.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:37]:
Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?Michael Ramos [00:23:41]:
I would say loving. It depends on the kids. I hear cool a lot, but that's I sing in a rock band, and I have lots of tattoos. So, like, to daughters, I'm like a really cool dad. There's a lot of words, but I do hear cool a lot. Like, I'm a cool dad.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?Steven Manchester [00:23:57]:
I would say the kids. I would say each one of my children because I owe that to them.Michael Ramos [00:24:01]:
Everything that was missing in my life from a father.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:05]:
Now you've both given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that you shared in the book, but also things that you've learned in your own journeys. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?Steven Manchester [00:24:18]:
For me, it's 2 words, be there. Above all things, just be there.Michael Ramos [00:24:22]:
I'd add on to it. Don't give up. You got this because I think that's what I've learned from working with so many dads over the past 15 years or so is that a lot of dads just give up or they don't feel like they're good enough. And if they can't be perfect, then they don't wanna let their kids down. So that's why they check out and that's why they're not engaged. And they're not there, like Steve's saying, to be there. Don't give up on yourself. You got this.Michael Ramos [00:24:44]:
And, yes, be there. It'll all come. And make the mistakes. It's okay to make the mistakes. We all do. That's called being human. It has nothing to do with being a father. It has to do with being you.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:53]:
Now if people wanna find out more about the book or about either of you, where should they go?Steven Manchester [00:24:57]:
First and foremost, amazon.com would be the first place that they can go to. So the book's available as an ebook. So we you have the electronic version and it's also print. It's done in print as well. And we have some I don't think it's something we'll talk about today, but we have some big plans for this book to introduce to the masses. And the hope is, again, to Mike's point, whether it be hospitals, prisons, to get this book out in mass where we can make as much impact as possible.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:27]:
A stories, your journey today. I truly appreciate you being here, for sharing your voice, and I wish you both the best.Steven Manchester [00:25:34]:
Thanks, Chris. We appreciate you.Michael Ramos [00:25:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, Chris. And thank you for being such an amazing host and making such a comfortable interview.Steven Manchester [00:25:39]:
And thank you for everything you're doing for the dads out there, Chris. We appreciate that. We really do. -
Discovering the Path to Better Father-Daughter Relationships
In a recent episode of the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Madeline Anderson, author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. Madeline shared insights and stories from her book and personal life, shedding light on the unique and impactful father-daughter relationship. Below, we delve into the highlights of their conversation and explore how her insights can help fathers strengthen their bonds with their daughters.
The Genesis of "Girl Dad"
Madeline Anderson, inspired by the unique and nurturing relationship with her father, set out to write *Girl Dad*. She recognized that her bond with her dad was rare and wanted to share the principles that made their relationship special. The book is a culmination of her personal experiences and interviews with various fathers and daughters. The key lesson: making life fun and enjoyable for daughters from a young age can build strong, lasting relationships.
Understanding the Importance of Small Moments
A recurring theme in Madeline’s book is the impact of small, consistent gestures over grandiose acts. During the podcast, she shared touching stories from daughters who cherished simple, heartfelt actions from their fathers. For instance, one father left a note in his daughter's freezer that she found after he moved her into college. Such acts of love and thoughtfulness resonate deeply, often becoming treasured memories.
Building Lifelong Friendships
Madeline emphasized the importance of fathers not only as authority figures but as friends. By making activities enjoyable and relating to their daughters' interests, fathers can cultivate friendship and trust. She shared an anecdote about her father building a playhouse in their attic, complete with a rock wall entry. This creative and fun project strengthened their bond, underpinning the larger message of her book—having fun together can transform the father-daughter relationship.
Embracing Your Authentic Self
Madeline also discussed the importance of fathers remaining true to themselves. Instead of sacrificing their interests, fathers should incorporate their daughters into their world. If a father enjoys hiking, for instance, taking his daughter along can create shared experiences and memories. When daughters feel included in their father's life, they are more likely to share their own worlds in return.
The Power of Understanding
Madeline urged fathers to prioritize understanding their daughters at an individual level. Simple practices like sharing "roses and thorns" of the day can open channels of communication and provide insights into their daughters’ lives. By knowing her highs and lows, fathers can support their daughters more effectively and build deeper connections.
Balancing Work and Family
Madeline spoke about her father's ability to balance a demanding work schedule while maintaining a close relationship with his daughters. She admired his ability to integrate his work world with his family life, showcasing that with some creativity and effort, work commitments need not overshadow family time. This approach can provide daughters with positive role models and inspire them in their own professional pursuits.
The Birth of Girl Dad Network
Expanding on her book’s mission, Madeline is launching the Girl Dad Network, an online community offering resources, mentorship, and a platform for fathers to connect and learn from one another. This network will feature monthly meetings, courses tailored by age group, gift guides, and resources for both fathers and daughters—intending to be a comprehensive support system for "girl dads" everywhere.
The conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Madeline Anderson illuminated the profound impact of conscious and loving fatherhood on daughters. Madeline's work serves as a reminder that it’s the little things that often matter the most. By being genuine, involving daughters in their passions, understanding their needs, and balancing work and family life, fathers can build meaningful and lasting relationships with their daughters.
For more resources, fathers can visit the Girl Dad Network at girldadnetwork.com or explore Madeline’s book, *Girl Dad*, available through Amazon. As underscored by Dr. Lewis, dads don’t need to be perfect; they just need to be present, engaged, and open to the journey of fatherhood.
Remember, every small gesture counts, and every day is an opportunity to build a stronger bond with your daughter.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down and talk to you. I say this every week, but it's so true because I learn from you as much as I'm hoping that you're learning from the people that we have on, the resources that we're sharing to help you be that dad that you wanna be to your daughters. And every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests, different people with different experiences. Last week, you had an opportunity to meet Kekoa and Madeline Anderson. They both were on. I love having fathers and daughters on.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]:
And I introduced you to the fact that Madeline is the author of a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we didn't really talk a lot about that book. But let me give you a little more context. So Madeline is an author and entrepreneur. She's got a passion for neuroscience, psychology, writing, and speaking. She's the daughter of a girl dad. We met him last week. And he's a father of 3 daughters.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]:
So he's got a lot of experience in that. And over a number of years, she spent over a number of years, she had the opportunity to interview a wide array of fathers and daughters to write this book about how you can be the best dad that you can be to your daughters. It really fits in well with the podcast and what we do in fathering together. So I'm really excited to have her back again this week to talk more about this journey that she's been on to be able to help dance and to learn a little bit more about what she learned in that process as well. Madeleine, thanks so much for being back again this week.Madeline Anderson [00:02:02]:
Thank you so much for having me, Christopher. I really appreciate it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]:
Well, I am excited to have you back. And it was so fun having your dad on last week and learning about the journey that the both that both of you were on. And I love some of the stories that he was sharing and some of the stories you were sharing about golfing and being able to, be that multi sport, fed into this book. But I I guess I wanna go back to the genesis because you're not a mother. You're not a father. You're writing a book, though, about being a great dad to daughters, and I think that has to have come from what we heard last week in the relationship that you have with your own father. But give me some of the genesis of what made you decide that you wanted to spend the time, the effort to interview all these people, to gain all this insight, and then put this book out into the world.Madeline Anderson [00:02:54]:
So I wrote this book because I have an incredible relationship with my dad. And, obviously, y'all heard that on the last podcast, but I had no idea how rare our relationship is. And I really want to change that. So that's the genesis of the book. And it started out with me writing stories with my dad and how he raised me and my 2 younger sisters. But then it turned into so much more than that as I started interviewing both dads and daughters from all over, like you mentioned. And I think it's really a culmination of their stories, lessons, and advice that really shine throughout the book. And the actual moment that I realized I wanted to write the book was actually an interesting one.Madeline Anderson [00:03:37]:
I was driving in Santa Monica. I could tell you exactly what street I was on and where I was going, but I I just had a thought pop into my head that said, you should write a book called Girl Dad. And like I said, I had always known I had a great relationship with my dad, but this thought just kind of came out of left field. And I've recently read Rick Rubin's book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. And there was something in it that really stood out to me as relevant to this conversation. And he talked a lot about artists being the vessels for bringing the art or the idea to life and how sometimes ideas just come to you. And you're meant to basically take that idea and put it out into the world. And I really feel that that was the case for girl dad.Madeline Anderson [00:04:18]:
It felt like a calling that's bigger than me, bigger than my stories, and it was something that I almost had to do because it was so important. And I think that having that daughter perspective is hopefully really helpful for dads because I'm trying to shed light on what we care about, what we want from our dads, and how to have a great relationship with us. So that's kind of the the genesis of Girl Dad, and it's evolving every day. I'm so excited. I'm launching Girl Dad Network very, very soon here, and that'll be an online platform for dads with all kinds of different things, like community and monthly live meetings with me, resources for the dads, resource for the daughters. Just kind of a full, all encompassing girl dad takes me takes me and how many people this message reaches.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:11]:
You know, one of the things that you said in the past podcast was that and and you reflected that just a moment ago where you talked about how rare it was for you to realize the relationship between you and your dad was not the norm. And you realized that in college when you interacted with other women that didn't have that same relationship. Talk to me about that and what you were hearing from some of these other women about the relationships they did not have. And what were those women telling you about what they wished that relationship was and what was missing in that relationship?Madeline Anderson [00:05:49]:
Yeah. It started the day that I moved in, and I lived in a dorm with I think it was there's 8 of us. So it was a 2 bedroom dorm with I know, I guess it was 6 of us. There was 2 bedrooms, 3 people in each bedroom, 1 bathroom, kind of a tough situation, but my dad helped me move in and he was there. He was so supportive. We grabbed dinner afterwards, the way he was helping me set up and everything. And then all 5 of the other girls were just there in awe. They didn't have a dad who was helping them move in.Madeline Anderson [00:06:19]:
And I definitely took it for granted. It was like, you know, move in day course he's coming. That's what he does. Like, you know, he's just always there for me. And so it was, that was the first moment. And then after he left, they had told me a lot about that. Like, wow, I can't believe your dad did that. That was so nice of him.Madeline Anderson [00:06:34]:
And I I really wish my dad would care for me like that. And and then obviously throughout college, I met ton of other girls who also had either no relationship with their dad or a very negative relationship. And they would say, you know, they hate their dad. You know, just really things that make my skin crawl a little bit and it and it hurts my heart, but it basically, it became very obvious to me that I had something very special And I always knew he was amazing, but I didn't realize how rare our relationship was.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:01]:
So you spent all this time, and you started kinda deconstructing the relationship that you had with your own father. And as you were looking at that, what were some of the big points, some of the things that really stood out to you that were unique in your relationship that you weren't seeing in some of the other relationships around you?Madeline Anderson [00:07:21]:
I think it probably tends to start from a young age. And looking back to when me and my sisters were young, one thing he did consistently was make life fun. So he would just put himself in our shoes and try to make every situation fun for us. And by having fun with him, we became more than, you know, just a father daughter dynamic. We became friends. And so we've kind of built that friendship over the years. We're still great friends and he's also my dad and I'm also his daughter, you know, that you can be both. And I think that's one thing that really became clear throughout my adulthood and reflecting on these stories and talking with my younger sisters and trying to think back, okay, What was that thing dad did with us? You know? It's like the common theme is we had so much fun, and nothing was, like, too crazy or such a rare idea.Madeline Anderson [00:08:12]:
It was all just, like, being silly or just hanging out with us and making us feel special. And one thing that comes to mind is he built us this playhouse, and it was just the coolest thing ever. He we had an attic, and so he transformed that attic into our playhouse. And he's super handy. So he did all the insulation and put in wood floors in the attic. And then what he did is he cut a hole in the top of our closet, and then he built a rock wall. And we were helping him throughout the process. So I have photos of me with little mask on up in the attic, and we went to REI and got the rock wall pieces and helped decide, okay, this one should go here.Madeline Anderson [00:08:48]:
This is here. And then it became this epic playhouse where you had to crawl up a rock wall in the closet to get to this playhouse. And we called it Club Wahini because he was born in Hawaii and we would draw on the walls. And every time our friends would come over, they would sign the wall And we would be up there for hours and hours, like, every day, every weekend, we had sleepovers up there. And it was just such a fun thing that he did. And he just he thought of it because he's creative, and he's always thinking about, oh, how can we make this fun? He's he's just really good at turning any situation into something that you wanna be a part of.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:24]:
So beyond what you were learning specifically about the relationship between you and your dad because by taking a clinical approach to taking a look at the relationship, it's a it it kinda sets makes you have to step back and look from a macro view versus the micro view that you grew up in. But then you went beyond that, and you started to talk to other fathers, daughters about their relationships. What did you learn what did you start learning from those conversations that was eye opening for you as you were preparing and collecting all this data that would eventually be written in your book?Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]:
The first thing that comes to mind is when I interviewed all the daughters, the same theme kind of kept coming up, which is it's all the little things that matter. Like, no daughter said, oh, you know, my dad is really special because on my birthday, he got me this, like, nice purse or, you know, something like big. It's all these little micro moments that add up over time. And funny enough, I had 2 daughters talk a long time, and it was like their favorite story about handwritten notes. One of them was a daughter who her dad helped her move into college as well. And their thing growing up was they would eat ice cream together on the couch. And so when he was moving in, he wrote on a little piece of paper, I wish I was eating. I was here eating ice cream with you and he put it in her freezer.Madeline Anderson [00:10:50]:
And then that night when he left, she was feeling all sad and she went to go get some ice cream and she saw that note there. And she said she started crying, and it was so special. And she's moved multiple times since then. And she told me she's brought the note with her every time and puts it in her freezer. And it's so funny how it's just this simple note. That was only a few words. Right? But it meant the world to her. And then the second example was one of the daughters that I interviewed, she when she was going off to college, she was having a lot of anxiety.Madeline Anderson [00:11:19]:
She has always kind of had a lot of anxiety, struggled with that. And she's grown up really close to home, doesn't like to leave home. And her college was in a different state. It was a flight away. And she was ultimately deciding that she didn't wanna go anymore because she couldn't handle it. And so her dad wrote her the kindest note just outlining how he's so proud of her, how she can do this, he'll be with her every step of the way, and just made her feel like she was capable. And so she ended up going to college at this school that was far away. She brought the note with her.Madeline Anderson [00:11:50]:
She put it in her backpack. She said she took it to every single class, and she felt a sense of comfort just knowing that that note was in her backpack. It was almost as if her dad was there in her presence. And she also told me that she has that note still today even though she's past graduation and everything. And she said it's all kind of crumpled up and, like, it looks old, but she said she'll keep it forever. So I think those are two powerful stories that just go to show you that it's just these little micro moments that means so much to us daughters. And at the end of the day, we just wanna feel loved. We wanna feel seen and heard and special.Madeline Anderson [00:12:25]:
And there's lots of ways to do that, but it could be as simple as a really genuine smile just like every day or a handwritten note or a big hug. Like, there's just these things that matter so much to us, and it's it's not rocket science necessarily, but it takes getting to understand us as individuals and what we need from our dads, to feel supported and loved.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:49]:
So you collect all this data. And as someone that went through a doctorate program and wrote a dissertation, I know what that's like, and especially qualitative data when you're pulling all kinds of stories together, and you're trying to figure out some type of semblance of order to all of this and putting it into thematic areas that make sense. Talk to me about some of the high level learning pieces that people are going to find as they go through this book and some of the main points that you are trying to put out there into the world. Not that you have to give away every secret because we want people to read the book, but what are some of the high level areas and things that you really are delving deeper into into in the book itself?Madeline Anderson [00:13:32]:
Yeah. I think the first thing that I I would say is that it's a very positive book. I want dads to read this and to close it and be like, let's go. I'm so happy that I have a daughter. I'm so excited depending on what age level she's at. I'm so excited for her journey to raise her, but I really want people to have fun with it. And I think that plays into one of the first themes and takeaways, which is to don't stop being you. And I think it's an important one because I want you to be the happiest version of yourself because when you're happy, you're usually a better father, a better husband.Madeline Anderson [00:14:06]:
It all starts with not taking away the things that you love. But this book, a lot of my, the, the stories and the themes throughout it talk about not giving those things up, but then in finding ways to include your daughter in them. And I think, you know, when you include her in your world, she will let you into hers. It might happen over time, especially as she gets older, but it pays dividends by making her feel like she's a part of your life and your passions. So I would say that's a that's a big one. Another takeaway would be getting to know your daughter and the importance of that and figuring out how to know your daughter. And there's some great tips in there like plain roses and thorns, which is basically asking her her rose of the day and her thorn of the day. So like a highlight of the day and something that maybe issue wish went differently and how powerful those conversations can be because she might be holding on to something and not going to speak up about it.Madeline Anderson [00:15:05]:
But if you give her the floor and you say, what was your thorn of the day? Then maybe something will come up. Something's going on at school or she's having an argument with a friend and it's really weighing on her. And she might not say anything. But when you give her the microphone and you show her that you're there to support her, you might learn a lot. And same thing goes with the positive side too. You might learn some of her passions that you didn't recognize. So that's another big one. And then I talk a lot about work and life.Madeline Anderson [00:15:32]:
And I think that's a big talking point for me, especially with my dad. He did such a good job of including me in his world with work. And so I never felt like my dad was spending too much time on work and not enough time with the family, even though he spends a ton of time on work. But I look at it as, wow. He's so amazing, so inspired by him. I hope to be as hardworking as him, and I don't look at as look at it as, you know, a negative or something that's taken away from me and my time. So I think there's a lot of tips on all three of those. There's plenty of, you know, tips on other things as well, but I would say those are some of the highlights.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:09]:
Now you talked about some of the things that you're planning to do. And as I'm sure going through college, moving into your career, this probably was not on your on your entrepreneurial journey of thinking that this was what you were going to hang your hat on and to put out into the world and to engage fathers in this way. So talk to me about where you are today, where you're going. You talked a little bit about that at the beginning, but let's talk about it again. I'd like to go a little deeper on that and what your hope is for what people are gonna take out of this book and to either take their own relationship to the next level or what that means, but share that with me as well.Madeline Anderson [00:16:49]:
So got a lot of exciting things in the works. I think my biggest focus right now is Girl Dad Network, building that out. So there's going to be some programs which are like courses depending on age level of the daughters. There's going to be monthly calls with me where it'll be a live call with me and like anyone in the community who wants to join. And I think that will be a really powerful piece because we'll be able to dive into things that are going on in in the relationship and how to amend things or how to prepare for, you know, certain stages of life. And I'll go over different topics as well and really excited for that piece. And then you've got the community side, being able to communicate with other fathers who are in similar situations or have daughters of the same age. There'll be events live and virtual.Madeline Anderson [00:17:35]:
Let's see. There's resources for the dads. I'm really excited about the gift guide actually because I'm building that with other daughters. So they can just go on there, add to cart, make it super easy for them. And it's all from the daughter's perspective once again. So they know, okay, if this is something that the daughters would want, then it's probably, very relevant. And then there's also resources for the daughter. So I'm building out, like, a mentorship program for the daughter, job board, and a college prep program as well.Madeline Anderson [00:18:03]:
So just wanted to be a one stop shop for the dads, everything girl dad related. How can they have a great relationship with their daughter? How can they set their daughter up for success? It's an online community. So it's, yeah, that's my main focus right now. Super excited about that. And then I would say the second part of it is speaking. I'm doing a lot more speaking events and been really, really loving that. I think my main focus is just getting out in front of as many dads as possible, whether that be through the book, through the speaking, through the community, and just being able to make an impact on fathers and daughters and future generations. So that's my passion.Madeline Anderson [00:18:39]:
And, yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing where it takes me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:41]:
So if people are interested in finding out more about the network, about the book, where should they go?Madeline Anderson [00:18:47]:
Yeah. So for the network, girldadnetwork.com. And for the book, girl dad the book dot com. It's also on Amazon, but there's a link through the website as well if that's easier.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:57]:
And we'll put links in the notes today for all of you to be able to find this, to be able to go out, grab the book, and be able to learn from the book, from the father and daughter relationships that are in the book. You're definitely not going to wanna miss this, and you're going to want to learn from this journey that not only that Madeleine has been on with her own dad, but also the journeys of all these fathers and daughters because it's really important to be able to take in all of this, like we talk about every week on the show, and be able to be open to learning, to be open to the journey, and know that you don't have to be a perfect dad. But there are things that you can do to be able to set up some building blocks that will help you to be the dad that you want to be. So I just want to say thank you, Madeleine, for making this a passion area for yourself, for working with fathers in so many different ways, for putting this out into the world. And I wish you all the best.Madeline Anderson [00:19:48]:
Thank you, Christopher. It's an honor to be here, and I appreciate everything that you're doing for all the dads out there as well.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:54]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.
Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.
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Fatherhood is a multifaceted journey laden with challenges, joys, fears, and triumphs. On the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome a special duo—Kekoa Anderson and his daughter, Madeline Anderson author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads & Their Daughters. Their insightful conversation unveils the essence of father-daughter relationships, the intricacies of raising daughters, and the profound impact of intentional parenting.
The Initial Excitement and Overwhelming Responsibility
When asked about the first moment he realized he was going to be a father to a daughter, Kekoa Anderson recalled it as an overwhelmingly positive time. He highlighted the sudden surge of responsibility that came with the birth of his daughter. This initial moment of excitement quickly paved the way for a lifelong journey of learning and adaptation.
Kekoa described fatherhood as a process of evolving fears and challenges. From protecting an innocent little girl to dealing with the complexities of adolescence, each stage brought new hurdles. However, the underlying theme remained the same: the importance of being present and proactive in his daughters' lives.
Developing Unique Relationships
One of the key points discussed in the podcast was the necessity of building unique relationships with each child. Kekoa emphasized the importance of recognizing each daughter’s individuality. He talked about creating bonds through shared interests like work and golf, which allowed him to engage with each daughter uniquely. Madeline fondly recounted her memories of being included in her father's work and the significant role golf played in their relationship.
Guiding Through Challenges and Building Confidence
Madeline also shared an insightful story that illustrated how her father's confidence in her abilities played a crucial role in shaping her self-esteem. At just 16, Kekoa entrusted her with attending a pre-proposal meeting, a task that seemed daunting at first but ultimately empowering. This experience, among many others, instilled in Madeline a sense of confidence and independence that she carries with her into adulthood.
Kekoa explained his approach to parenting as one that focuses on guiding his daughters to the answers rather than giving them directly. This method built their confidence and equipped them with problem-solving skills essential for their future endeavors.
Cherishing the Journey
One of the most compelling parts of the conversation was the mutual respect and admiration between Kekoa and Madeline. Madeline expressed her awe at her father's thoughtful and supportive nature. She highlighted how the realization of her unique father-daughter relationship dawned on her during college when she noticed the absence of such bonds in her peers' lives.
Kekoa, in turn, shared how reading Madeline's book “Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters” was a reflective experience for him, reminding him of the many special moments they shared and the lessons they both learned.
Advice for Fathers
The episode concluded with the "Fatherhood 5," where both guests shared their insights and advice. Madeline stressed the importance of showing up and understanding your daughter. Knowing her passions, love language, and personality can significantly enhance the father-daughter relationship. Kekoa added the wisdom of enjoying the journey and not rushing through the moments. He likened it to the gentle pace necessary in a game of golf, emphasizing the importance of taking your time and appreciating each step of the way.
The conversation with Kekoa and Madeline Anderson on the “Dads with Daughters” podcast encapsulates the essence of fatherhood. It’s an ever-evolving journey that requires patience, understanding, and the willingness to grow alongside your children. Kekoa’s stories and Madeline’s reflections offer valuable lessons for all fathers striving to build strong, supportive, and empowering relationships with their daughters. As Dr. Christopher Lewis often reiterates, fatherhood is a journey for life—a journey best traveled with love, patience, and an open heart.TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being on this journey with you. We have an opportunity every week to be able to to to work through this journey that you're on with your daughter. And every week, I love being able to be on this journey. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I have the opportunity to be able to learn and grow just like you are from the guests that we have on the show because it is a constant journey that we are all on. No matter if you have infants or if you have college age or if you have kids that are grown and flown out of the house and living their own life.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]:
No matter what it is, you're still gonna be growing as a father, And your relationship with your daughters are going to change over that time. So it's important. It's important to keep learning, important to stay open to learning. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have gone through this journey in different ways. We have dads, we have daughters, we have lots of people with lots of different resources. And this week we got 2 great guests with us. I am always excited when I get to have a father and a daughter on. And this week, we do have that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]:
We have father Kekoa Anderson, and daughter, Madeline Anderson, with us today. And Madeline and I got introduced because Madeline recently wrote a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we'll talk a little bit about that and this. And I think we may even have this into a 2 parter. So we'll talk more in-depth about the book as well as what she learned. But today, we're gonna be talking a lot about their relationship and what led Madeleine to writing this book as well. So I'm really excited to have them on. Kikoa, Madeleine, thanks so much for being here today.Kekoa Anderson [00:01:56]:
Thank you very much.Madeline Anderson [00:01:57]:
Thank you for having us.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time, Kikoa, and I'm gonna have you start here today. So I wanna go back to that first moment, that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter, what was going through your head?Kekoa Anderson [00:02:11]:
Exciting times years ago. So, you know, going back to the time in my life, it was a great time in life. Just having been married for a number of years and dating my wife for some time. You know, that was the height of everything where life was all in front of me. So when that came, that was just kind of the first step of having a child. And my wife and I both wanted to be surprised, so we didn't know the sex of Madeleine at the time. So it was, you know, one of those things. And that day was just kind of life changing when all of a sudden this responsibility little package popped out and it was like really overwhelming, extremely positive way.Kekoa Anderson [00:02:47]:
Reflecting back on that time was interest growing up and being a civil engineer and structural engineer and all the mechanics that are associated with that and testing everything, this was something where you could have a baby and walk out of the hospital and they just basically say, like, good luck. And there's no test, there's no form. It was an interesting time at that birth. So being ready for it, it's like, no, I was not ready for it. Nobody is. You just hear the stories from everybody. And so leaving that out, that was certainly a very exciting time. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh, I got a lot of work to do.Kekoa Anderson [00:03:20]:
What's my plan and what's my path forward?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:22]:
You know, I talk to a lot of dads that talk about that moment when you're walking out of the hospital and they're they're especially if it's a first child, but also a your first daughter of this sense of heaviness that sets on you and the weight of being a father, but also of being a father to a daughter. And that there's some fear that goes along with that too. What would you say is was your biggest fear in raising a daughter?Kekoa Anderson [00:03:45]:
It's almost like the from the little age, the fragileness and safety issue and kind of being there for him and, and the responsibility of like, of taking care of that life at that little time. It was, you know, that was the frightening part where, you know, it wasn't necessarily frightening, but it was just something that kind of came up on top. And then as you go through that, then those things change from protecting a helpless innocent little girl to then seeing her interact with certain situations, everything from preschool to kindergarten, where they had little discuss and there's little issues, which are easy solves at that time to when, you know, you move up into the junior high, high school range, and, you know, they start dating different guys, you know, then it becomes there's another kind of sense of where's the manual for this? And how do I interact with them and protect them guide them at the same time, give them the freedom to learn and choose and not be overwhelming. So you know, that very dynamic and changing all the way through it. So So now that you're interviewing me with an older daughter having gone through that, maybe I didn't answer the specific area. But, you know, that's kind of the from the start to where we were today, maybe in the summary.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:50]:
And, Madeline, when you hear that, what goes throughMadeline Anderson [00:04:52]:
your head? I'm just sitting here in awe. I mean, I know we've talked so much about our relationship and I interviewed him throughout the whole girl dad process, but I feel like every time I hear how he thinks and what's going through his head, it just reminds me of how many thoughts there are, how thoughtful he is, and just how incredible of a dad he is. But I think, yeah, as far as the fears and everything, I'm sitting here kind of imagining myself going through that with my own kids one day as well. And recognizing that, yeah, there's not just one big fear. I think you answered that really well, dad. It's it really evolves throughout time and changes depending on the age and the time of life and what's kinda going around them at the time. So I'm sure a lot of dads out there can relate to that as well.Kekoa Anderson [00:05:37]:
Yeah. And it's it wasn't really so much fear. It was probably kind of the wrong word. It was just kind of a when I reflect back on it, it wasn't the number of fearful steps. It was just the situations came up. You weren't in fear waiting for it to happen. It just happened and you had to react. So it's like, how do you react when reactions are necessary?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:55]:
And I'll say it. I mean, and fear doesn't end. There are going to be things in life even when your child is out of the house and they are living their own life, that you can still be fearful or you can still have concerns. And but you have to temper those concerns and understand that your child is an adult. And how do you deal with that now, Kikoa, as you see CertainlyKekoa Anderson [00:06:17]:
Certainly no fear of that, but there's, like, the worries and stuff. As I know, I feel very confident in her abilities to manage and take care of herself even from the safety issues to the work related elements to the financial side. Those, you know, at this level, it's nice. It's that's certainly a comfortable area where you can kinda boost control with that element instead of have to worry about it. But when challenges come up, certainly, you're there to go through those fears collectively and communicate them throughout. I still, as she's taken a trip to some area, I'm giving her extra fatherly advice on don't go to these parts and stay away from this or avoid that. And she probably doesn't wanna hear that. And she already knows anyway.Kekoa Anderson [00:07:01]:
But it's also it's good just to throw those things out there. So those little bullet points are in her head. Head. I always do that, maybe overdo that too, which maybe is a negative, but, you know, it's my role. I have to do it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]:
You're always gonna be a dad. That does not stop. No matter what and how old your child is, you'll still be a father and you're still gonna be engaged in many different ways. Now, every parent and then child are able to develop unique relationships, and there's things that really define that for themselves. Especially if you have multiple kids, you have to have those unique relationships with multiple kids. But when you have that relationship with your daughter, you're going to be developing it in your own way. Madeleine, for you, as you think about the relationship that you have with your dad and how that's evolved over the years, what's been some of the favorite things that you and your dad share together that you've appreciated most as you have gone through this relationship?Madeline Anderson [00:07:51]:
Yeah. I would say to come to mind first. There's plenty of similarities and things that we bond over, but I would say the first one would be work. I was brought to my dad's work on the weekends when I was a kid, really enjoyed those moments. And he's always made me feel really included in his role and his job. And so I always understood when he was working, what he was doing, and it never felt like he was taking time away from me and my sisters. It felt like, oh, he's working. He's motivated.Madeline Anderson [00:08:21]:
He's someone who we should be inspired by. So I always looked up to him in that sense. And then as I grew, I would always call him for work advice or business advice and we love bouncing ideas off one another or brainstorming things for work. So it's something that could be dry, but it's actually really fun for both of us, I think. And we have really great conversations around work and drive and what's next and game planning and goal setting and all of those kinds of things. And then number 2 would be golf. And that was something that my dad introduced to me as a young girl by just taking me to the course with him when he played with his friends. And at the time I didn't play, I just would sit there and count the bunnies and watch the wildlife and just enjoy myself in the cart.Madeline Anderson [00:09:06]:
And finally, when I was old enough to maybe swing a club, I got a little snoopy set. It was a driver and a putter and one iron. And that was really fun for me because I felt included in the sport. And now, you know, he could take me with his friends and I could hit every now and then, and it made me feel like I was a part of the team. And then fast forward to high school, I tried out for the high school team and made that. And so I played throughout high school and he was always there guiding me. He would show up to my matches and had some fun little like one liners like roll it and hold it. And I'm forgetting some of the others, but there was some good life lessons.Kekoa Anderson [00:09:39]:
From another.Madeline Anderson [00:09:40]:
Yeah. Well, there's just some good life lessons in golf because it takes a lot of patience and we have to think about every stroke matters. Drive for show, putt for dough. That was another one you said. And it's just every stroke matters. You can't take what just happened in the past and apply it to the future. You have to take every single hit individually. And so having him there throughout that chapter was amazing.Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]:
And now as an adult, I love going home and playing golf with my dad or trying to find a new course to play out with him. So that's been a really fun bonding experience that we still get to enjoy as adults and both work and golf, I suppose, that started when I was a young girl.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:20]:
And what about you, Kikoa? What were some of the things that you appreciated most in that building of the relationship and the things that you shared together?Kekoa Anderson [00:10:27]:
That really makes my life takes me to that extra level. Like, if I didn't have a daughter or didn't have that area, like, how my life would be different. And definitely with 3 daughters, there was a lot of different uniqueness with each one and what we did. But specifically, I think some of the successes that really made my life more expanding was to include her in those things. With the work like one she talked about, you know, we've done a lot of different projects together. We kind of create the projects to work together on. And, you know, at a little age for her visiting the office and coming in and coloring and drawing on plan sets, you know, as an engineer and like developing bridges, we had all kinds of big sheets of paper. So that was a canvas to colour on, which was fun.Kekoa Anderson [00:11:10]:
But at the same time, she got to kind of see, you know, what was all engaged. And there was a lot of neat things from the computers to the printers to even the old drafting elements that was kind of unique, you know, from the work and I think that helped guide her in some of the areas that she liked. But, you know, golf outside activity is an excellent sport to play with all 3 of my daughters and even my wife. It's just being out in nature and walking. Like I said, in the early age, it wasn't about her trying to outdrive her sister, that type of thing. It was like riding in the cart. You know, they wanted to drive the car, play with the bunnies, go to the lake and fish out golf balls or things more so. But then over time, it kind of grew.Kekoa Anderson [00:11:49]:
So that walk together was really, you have time for conversation, Your daughter actually beats you on poles. So then you have the competition that's, I might drive longer, but she can putt better. So all of a sudden there's these equalizers that so having the competition and you're both trying your hardest is unique, you know, compared to some other sports. So, you know, I think we all enjoyed that time together. But even just the trips and things that we took and having the conversations is really what to understand who everybody is and how they're different and being able to engage in that. You just gotta make time to do that. So the more we did it, the better. And when there's times when we got caught up with other things, it's kind of rebalancing yourself so that you have time for those activities.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:32]:
You know, one of the questions that I guess that I would ask as a father of multiple daughters, as I said, you have to build those unique relationships. How did you find yourself parenting, fathering each of your daughters in unique ways to be able to build those unique relationships with each of them, as they were all growing?Kekoa Anderson [00:12:49]:
Yeah. That's a tough one. I mean, that kind of first had a lot of activity. So it was like, here's kind of the spread. So as an engineer, I'm looking at economy of scale. So I want the golf clubs to pass down. So either one's gonna play golf. You know, the ski boots, it's like, hey, Malins went to Meredith, Meredith went to Ella.Kekoa Anderson [00:13:04]:
And they I kept having 3 girls was awesome from a standpoint of once you kind of have all those upfront costs on the first, you can spread it down. But I think what we did was we were kind of well rounded and did a lot of different activities. So whether it was surfing, skiing, golfing, tennis, soccer, softball, pickleball, there was enough where we did a lot of sports, weren't necessarily experts in 1, but enjoyed the time together. So everybody kind of fell into their place and got to be themselves, you know, through that portfolio of a lot of different activities. Instead, you know, some fathers, maybe it's all soft ball and they only do softball and others might just be soccer and there's club and hockey now. And, you know, so everything's so focused and those coaches want you just to be like all this one sport. And they're always pushing for that for their team and their success. But again, watching the 3, maybe we wanted to make sure that they could go on the ski trip together.Kekoa Anderson [00:13:58]:
And just because there was, you know, some club soccer team event that they would get in trouble for missing, it was kinda like we had to take that sacrifice so that our family could be together. So we didn't let, you know, one thing dominate, and we kept the portfolio open for the 3 to kinda fall into what workedDr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]:
best for them. Now, Madeleine, people can easily hear from you that you have been able you've been bothered in a good way in in regards to helping you to become a independent individual person that is out there living your life, doing good things, and really making a life for yourself ahead of you. And I'll say your parents had a say in that. They helped you in that journey, and you helped yourself in somewhat in that journey too. But I guess as you think back to the things that your father did, the things that he did to be able to help you to become the person that you are today, what were some of the things that really stand out to you that he did for you that really allowed for you to become the woman that you are today?Madeline Anderson [00:14:58]:
The influence is certainly there. I think there's a couple of stories that come to mind, but I really liked what he said about the multiple sports. And I think that kind of mentality of, like, you can do whatever, find your passions, you know, it wasn't forced upon us, but we ended up like, I really enjoyed soccer and golf and my little sister, the littlest one, she found her passion in art. And I think throughout all of us kind of finding our own lane, obviously both my parents, my dad specifically has been so supportive and once once we kind of define what that lane is, he's really good about offering support and advice and kind of guiding us through that journey. But I think another thing is just that belief in me and my sisters and our capabilities. And one story that comes to mind is when I was 16, I just got my driver's license and my dad woke me up and he was like, Madeline, I'm double booked for a meeting. I'm I'm gonna need you to fill in for me. I was like, What do you mean? And he said, it's a pre proposal meeting. It's no big deal. You're gonna go there. You've got this. You just need to meet with everyone, give them your business cards, But first you need to understand if they're a landscape architect or an engineer. If they're an engineer politely, and the conversation move on, go to the next person, hopefully they're a landscape architect, then you give them your business card. And so I went to this pre proposal meeting. I was the youngest person by probably 30 years and one of the only women.Madeline Anderson [00:16:20]:
And I had enough call, like probably too much confidence. And I just walked around and I was like, hi, would chat with somebody, found out they're a landscape architect, and then I would give them my business card. And then afterwards when I came home, even I was like, great job. Okay. Now follow-up with them. And I was like, what? So he taught me, he guided me through that whole process, but in doing so he gave me so much confidence in my abilities and put me in an uncomfortable situation, but told me that I was going to be great and could do it. And I think throughout that process, I learned how to be confident in my work and I'm sure that's just one example, but there's been so many throughout, especially high school and college where he's really just been there for me and, has guided me to feel confident about what I'm doing. So I I think that that's really translated into my adulthood and kind of how I do what I do.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:09]:
Thank you, Coop. Were there any other things that you intentionally tried to do with your daughters to be able to instill that in them, whether they accepted it or not?Kekoa Anderson [00:17:19]:
Well, definitely, yeah. I mean, the whole point of challenging them to build their confidence is not giving them the answer to the question, but a number of questions to get to the answer. And through that path of finding those was part of that success of building the confidence. I think that was one area. You know, always look at a way to bait them into thinking through the process. And for example, if you go into that pre proposal meeting, I'm an engineer. We do the bridges. So we were looking we didn't need to meet them.Kekoa Anderson [00:17:47]:
They're our competitors. We wanted to look at the ones that we could partner with. So her, you know, and it was low hanging fruit. If she messed up, it wasn't gonna change our outcome, but it was just a benefit. There wasn't the pressure of her having her having to fail. It was just giving her a chance to succeed. I mean, that step of kind of seeing if she could figure out a way to figure out who's the engineer, who's a landscape architect, because we wanted those landscape architects on our team. And if she messed up and actually got an engineer, we could've worked through that issue.Kekoa Anderson [00:18:14]:
So, again, it was setting them up with a challenge and let them get their hands dirty and figure it out.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:19]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where we ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into typically, it's the dad, but today, we're gonna be doing both of you. And so first and foremost, Madeline, in one word, what is fatherhood?Madeline Anderson [00:18:34]:
I wanna say either guidance or support.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:36]:
Kekoa.?Kekoa Anderson [00:18:37]:
Yeah. One word. That's a tough one. It's just kinda like it's life for me. It's like, hey. That's I'm a father. So that's a tough one. But it's definitely that walk.Kekoa Anderson [00:18:45]:
It makes everything fatherhood is who I am. It's awesome. Love it. I can't imagine not being it and not having that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]:
Now, Madeleine, when was the time that you felt that your dad finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?Madeline Anderson [00:18:57]:
I feel like the the finally is throwing me off because I think I grew up just with the understanding that he's a great dad to daughters. I don't know that there was ever a moment that it hit me. Oh, well, you know what? Actually, I will say when I went to college, that's when I really realized how amazing my dad is because I realized how rare that relationship is. And I might've taken it for granted, to be honest. And when I realized that a lot of the women around me did not have great relationships with their dads and they couldn't believe how close me and my dad are, that really shook me. And so, yeah, that would be probably the moment that I realized he has always been a great dad.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:34]:
and Kekoa?Kekoa Anderson [00:19:35]:
Yeah. I mean, I think the success of being a father is is it's never over. It's, like, endless. So it's you're only as good as your last success. But some of the things where you know, I saw, you know, pivotal points and like, certainly like graduation and leaving the house. And interesting enough, like Malin writing this book, it was like because a lot of people don't get to talk about it. So then when I first was reading the drafts of that, it was like, you know, goodness, obviously, the things that I had forgotten about a number of things that we had done when she was young and those type of things and really getting her perspective. So if, I mean, if daughters made a list of things that they really appreciated and the dads got to see that, that's awesome.Kekoa Anderson [00:20:14]:
And, you know, so that was kind of, you know, success by her writing that and me getting to reflect on it. You know, that was, you know, great job, Mandy.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]:
Thank you. And, Kikoa, as you think about fatherhood, who inspires you to be a better dad?Kekoa Anderson [00:20:27]:
Yeah. I mean, that's a tough one too. I I think that my style is I watch and listen a number of people, and whenever I see a good idea or lesson learned, I I take that for myself. So, you know, certainly my father and my wife's father, they were great examples and a lot of family friends. So I kinda used that whole portfolio and sold all the great ideas for myself and step myself up based on what I saw and learned from them. So, but definitely, you know, my own father and my father-in-law were a big inspiration throughout the whole time as they were active with Madeline and the other daughters as well.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:03]:
Now, both of you have given a number of pieces of advice today, things that any dad could think about. As we finish up today, Madeline, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Madeline Anderson [00:21:15]:
I would say show up for her. And I think the best way to do that is by knowing who she is. So take the time to really understand your daughter, her passions, the way that she thinks, maybe her love language, and then use that information to show up for her the way that she needs because that's gonna look different for every daughter.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:33]:
Thank you, Koa.Kekoa Anderson [00:21:34]:
Yeah. I think make the most of it and kind of, you get to reap all the benefits of it. I think that using golf is kind of one of the discussion items. There was a gentleman told me once, he said, you know, swing slow and accept the extra distance, which I always love that one, but that that's the same type of thing here with the advice for the dad. It's like there's a whole bunch of different moments and don't race to get to one end. Just enjoy the different parts of it and and kinda use that and take that time to engage.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:02]:
Well, I truly appreciate both of you sharing this today. And and I know, Madeleine, we're gonna have you on another episode to talk more about the book. We didn't go go really into the book today. We're gonna tease that out for the next episode that we're going to have with you to be able to delve even deeper into this learning of talking to all of these different fathers and not only kind of taking the the experience that you had with your own dad, but but going even deeper than that and talking to many other fathers about their own experiences. So I really appreciate you both sharing your journey and for sharing that with other dads, and I wish you both the best.Kekoa Anderson [00:22:40]:
Thank you very much.Madeline Anderson [00:22:41]:
Thank you, Christopher. Really appreciate you having us on today.Kekoa Anderson [00:22:44]:
Indeed. Thank you so much.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:46]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:35]:
We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.
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Exploring Values-Driven Fatherhood
In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast we sat down with Dr. Jason Frishman of JourneyMen to delve into vital conversations surrounding fatherhood, societal equity, and the evolving role of dads in modern families. From building equitable homes to redefining traditional masculinity, this episode offered profound insights and practical advice for every father aiming to be more present and effective in their children's lives. Below, we unpack the most compelling segments from their conversation.
The Roots of Social Justice in Family Life
Dr. Jason Frishman shared how his upbringing, influenced by deeply rooted values of equality and social justice, shaped his perspectives on parenting. The lessons he learned from his grandparents and parents about fairness and understanding have become the foundation of how he raises his own children. Jason emphasized that fostering an equitable home environment isn't only a moral obligation; it's essential for nurturing well-rounded, empathetic individuals.
Concerns Over Societal Pressures
One of Jason’s primary concerns lies in the societal pressures that could impact his children's values and character as they grow. He pointed out that while more men are spending time at home, the growth in fatherhood roles hasn't kept pace with these changes. This lag can lead to challenges as men navigate roles they may not be fully prepared for, often under the weight of traditional societal expectations.
Transitioning from Children to Fathers: A Professional and Personal Journey
Jason's professional journey has taken him from working with children to specializing in counseling men and fathers. This shift was driven by his passion for creating positive societal change and challenging the traditional narratives of masculinity. He introduced the concept of "foundational adventures," a counternarrative designed to redefine what it means to be a man and a father in today’s world.
Embracing New Masculinity Narratives
Journeymen, the organization Jason is involved with, seeks to redefine masculinity and fatherhood. By promoting more inclusive partnerships at home, Journeymen encourages fathers to be active, engaged, and supportive partners, paving the way for healthier family dynamics. Jason's personal realization of embedded patriarchal thoughts highlighted the need for continuous growth and change, both individually and collectively.
Values Work as a Beacon for Personal Growth
A crucial part of Jason's message is the role of values in guiding personal growth. He stressed that challenges and conflicts shouldn't be seen as roadblocks but as opportunities for learning and development. For fathers seeking to make meaningful changes, Jason advises starting with a clear vision of what they want their household and relationships to look like, then identifying and overcoming the barriers that stand in their way.
The Universal Chaos of Parenting
Dr. Christopher Lewis underscored that parenting is a shared experience, often chaotic and busy but profoundly rewarding. Likening it to managing a boat full of "tiny screaming passengers," Dr. Lewis emphasized the importance of being actively involved in all aspects of children's lives—from spending quality time, imparting lessons, and preparing meals, to celebrating special moments. This hands-on approach is essential for building strong father-daughter relationships.
A Call to Action for Fathers
Both Dr. Lewis and Dr. Jason Frishman called on fathers to be intentional and present in their children's lives. Jason suggested that being a better father and partner involves becoming a stronger, more grounded individual. Overcoming obstacles requires a clear understanding of one's values and the dedication to addressing what hinders their achievement.
Intentional Parenting: Building Connections and Having Fun
Jason also highlighted the significance of intentionality in parenting. This involves using language consciously, allowing children to have a voice in their upbringing, and ensuring that parenting decisions align with core values. Moreover, he stressed the importance of having fun and enjoying time with family, as these moments create lasting bonds and cherished memories.
The Fatherhood Five: Embracing Connections and Small Gestures
In the 'Fatherhood Five' segment, Jason shared his personal reflections on fatherhood, describing it as fundamentally about connections. He prides himself on the close relationship his sons share and hopes they would describe him as silly, optimistic, and caring. Jason finds inspiration from his sons, wife, parents, and a close group of male friends, and he holds steadfast to the advice of consistently showing love through small, intentional actions.
Dr. Dr. Jason Frishman's insights on the Dads with Daughters podcast offer a compelling vision for modern fatherhood—one rooted in equity, intentionality, and joy. By embracing these principles, fathers can create nurturing environments that foster positive growth and deep connections with their children. To engage more with Jason's work or to access resources on effective fatherhood, visit the Journeymen website or reach out via the contact details provided in the podcast episode.Dr. Jason Frishman was a part of Sarah Maconachie's book of stories about fathers called Working Dads and Balancing Acts.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Love being able to be on this journey with you, knowing that you know that I've got 2 daughters. I know that you have daughters. And it is a great opportunity for us to walk on this path together because the journey that I am on is not going to be the same journey that you're on, but we have similarities. There are things that we go through that are similar, and we can learn and grow from each other, and we can learn and grow from other fathers that are doing fatherhood in a little bit different way. We can push ourselves to be able to get out of our comfort zone. We can push ourselves to do something different, to be that engaged father, that more present father that we want to be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]:
And that's why the show exists. The show exists so that every week, you have an opportunity to take what you're learning and put it into action, to be able to hear from others that have gone before you that are doing fatherhood in a little bit different way, that have different resources that are available to you and can help you in that journey that you're on. So thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being back every week. And I love being able to bring you different guests that are going to be able to help you in different ways. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Doctor.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]:
Jason Frischman is with us today. And Doctor. Frischman is a father of 2 sons, but he also works with men that are struggling to balance work and family and that are working to become more confident, connected, and fully alive. And we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about the journey that he's been on as a father, and I'm really looking forward to talking to him today. Jason, thanks so much for being here today.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:02:06]:
Excellent. Thank you so much. I'm really glad and looking forward to our conversation.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]:
Well, I'm excited to have you here today as well. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back. I know you've got some teenagers in the house right now, and I would love to turn the clock back. I said I did say you had sons. So I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a son. What was going through your head?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:02:29]:
It's a powerful and important question. We didn't find out that the baby was gonna be a son until he was born. And actually his birth story was a really hard one. And so because of everything that was going on, we were planning a home birth and it was all picture perfect and beautiful until it wasn't. And then we wound up in the emergency room at the hospital. And frankly, when I found out he was a boy, that I was having a son, it was the least of my concerns. And we were just so very happy that he was healthy, that my wife was healthy. He fortunately didn't need to spend time in the NICU.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:03:03]:
And so the first and foremost was we have a healthy baby. And the next piece was once it hit that we you know, I had a son. And at that time in my life, working as a psychologist, I worked even then primarily with males, male identifying clients. And so I think when Micah was born, I think I was nonplussed in terms of gender, but I also was like, well, I'm kind of an expert in that, so maybe it'll be easier. Flash forward, it it hasn't been, but that's besides the plight. But the other piece is and this happened more when we had our second son because I think we knew we were only gonna have 2, but having 2 sons, we knew that we have a big responsibility in terms of raising good boys. That is something that I've spent my entire career helping others to do, and it sort of became our turn. And so I think both my wife and I have felt like we were meant to raise good men, and that's why we have 2 sons.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:03:57]:
But we also feel in our risk this responsibility that boys and young men in this culture, they have a lot of work to do. And so we our values and who we are as both humans and parents and friends and etcetera, we wanted our children to be raised a little bit differently. Part of your introduction about, like, parents who do it a little differently. That was a big part of the intention that we have in every developmental stage of our kids' lives.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:23]:
So talk to me about parenting a little differently. How do you define that, and what have you tried to do in your sons' lives to parent differently and to allow for them that that difference to be in their life in that regard?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:04:36]:
Well, I think the first piece, which sounds very simple and yet has always been very challenging and something that we stay aware of is a lot of what we do, we want to be intentional. Intentionality and transparency are 2 of our common values as parents. And so I'll give a good example. Both my wife and I are trained as narrative therapists. And so in the narrative therapy world, language is very important. We believe that language and stories help derive and and drive reality. Right? And so the language that we use, even when our kids were pre verbal, was very intentional. So for example, at the time, when my first born son was was was born, we made the decision that I would continue working and seeing clients and my wife would stay home.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:05:19]:
Now, on the one hand, that is a very typical traditional gender split, but because we are intentional about it, it changed the way we had to talk about what that was like. And so a great example is even when my son was preverbal as an infant, we never used the language of papa's going to work, and we corrected others when they said that. Right? Papa's going to the office. Right? Because saying that I'm going to work, what does that say about my wife who's staying home? Right? And so we were very intentional about the fact that, you know, she was doing more, you know, work if not, you know, as much if not more work than I am. And so we never wanted that language to to build a, a sort of a schema for for our kids where father goes to work, mama stays home. Right? And so intentionality around the language we use, intentionality around, the the products, the the things that we do with our kids, that was always very important. Another another good example is that, you know, I'm big at both of us are big in the food world. I I've been a cook and a chef and I've taught I've used it.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:06:36]:
We've had small businesses with food and, you know, food values are very important to us. And so my wife who has been a a vegetarian since 14, she said, most vegetarians choose to be vegetarian. We're raised as omnivores or carnivores, and we choose to be vegetarian. We chose to raise our kids as vegetarian. And when they showed that they sort of understood the values and the ideas and the morals that we were sharing, then they could make their own choice. And right now, both of my kids have chosen to eat meat. My wife actually has started eating meat, and yet we're very intentional. Like at this point, we only eat meat if we know the farmer.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:07:16]:
And in Vermont, we can do that. But most of the time when we go out, we said tell we we're vegetarian because we can't do it otherwise. So these are sort of mundane but important examples. But in terms of parenting differently, we're very intentional, transparent. We're aware of our language and the language we use, especially around gender with our kids. And then the other part is we're very, like I said, transparent. So my kids have always had a voice. Not that, you know, we're the adults and we're in charge, but my kids have always had a voice in in kind of what we do, how we do it.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:07:53]:
They are able and and comfortable to give me feedback. I ask for it as the parent, as the father. And so sometimes I don't always like that, but it but but I but I always welcome the fact that they can tell me or share with me what I'm doing, how that makes them feel, and what it makes them think about. And it gives them a voice and agency and empowers them to grow into themselves in the boundaries that we as the parents have set.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]:
So talk to me about that intention. And not every father, not every man has gotten to that point where they are doing the same thing or that they are trying or working to build a equitable home in regards to what is happening inside their own home. And we definitely don't see the equity being rewarded from a societal end. So personally, and it may go back to how you were raised, what made you personally decide as a man, as a father, as a husband, that that was important to you and that you wanted to instill that in your own children, and you wanted to break the the societal cycle, let's say, that is out there?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:09:10]:
Wow. That one question we could spend, you know, a lot of time on, but two things. You hit the nail on the head in terms of it does start with my own upbringing and childhood. I would start even with my mother's parents, who've sadly recently both passed away. They were partners in the truest sense of the word. Even as a child, I remember that. The 2 of them sat down and did the taxes together. My grandmother, in a time when that didn't really happen, she was as aware of the money and the investments and that, you know, she was as aware of that, if not more than my grandfather.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:09:43]:
And they were real partners. There's a great story is my grandfather drove me to college when I graduated high school. My parents were working. And I recently asked, I said, was grandma there? Did she go too? And my mom was like, of course, they did everything together. They were real partners. So that was the model I got from my grandparents. My parents, very, very similar. At one point, my mom went back to grad school and said, if y'all wanna eat, you better learn how to cook.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:10:07]:
And my father learned how to cook. And so I always witnessed this sort of working towards equality and working towards an awareness of how we are at home and how the society at large is, and just the strength and courage it takes to do things differently. So that has always been a part of the way I look at the world. And then of course, you know, I I grew up trained as a psychologist. I try I got my master's and my doctorate and was always leaning. I used to joke that as a psychologist, I'm sort of a social worker in psychologist clothing. I have always been someone who looks towards social justice and equality and has been impacted by the inequality and the the sort of oppression and challenges that are led. And then, because of my working with boys and men for so many years, I'm a white man in this culture.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:10:56]:
And having the background that I have, that has all become very prominent. And really, I find it to be one of the most vital issues in our culture today is the level that patriarchy has damaged both men, boys, and subsequently, every you know, families. And so it has become a real passion of mine to work for equality and just intentionality in the way that we use language and and work with gender.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:23]:
So as you think about raising your sons, and as you talked about, you're raising your sons in a different way and challenging them and pushing them and encouraging them in different ways in the way that they are being raised. As you look at your biggest fear in raising them today? When I was young, my mom do you remember the 2? Fear in raising them today?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:11:44]:
When I was young, my mom do you remember the TV show Family Ties? Yep. So when I was young and I was a very liberal, even more so than my parents, progressive kind of thinker, all these things, my mom used to tease me that I was gonna get an Alex P. Keaton furissa. And that's not my worry. I don't think that's gonna happen. But I do worry that the strength and presence of my kids is going to be battered at from a larger society. I mean, we have purposefully, like, you know, my kids have been in a bubble. Like we encourage childhood in a very solid way.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:12:18]:
And we live in a rural town in a small state that is very white. And, you know, we've done our best to expose them to the world, and we talk politics. You know, we share things with them. But I guess my my my, one of my big fears or worries is that when they go out into the world, will they have enough of a solid foundation to stand on when they're hit with much of the mainstream ethos and pathos, you know, frankly. How will they hold up? Now, if the way they say it up to me is any indication, I think we'll be fine. But I do worry sometimes that the the sort of mainstream masculine way of being expectations and roles will beat them down a little bit.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:58]:
I appreciate you sharing that. Now I mentioned at the beginning that you work with men and that you are working with them, with individuals that are struggling to balance work and family and be connected and confident and helping them to, as I said, fully alive. Talk to me about how you got into this work and why you decided that working with men and creating journeymen was something that was a passion area and was something that you really wanted to focus on?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:13:31]:
So I've been a therapist. I've been as a psychologist, I've been working for about 25 years, and almost exclusively with boys, men, and families. And when I started my career, I'm naively embarrassed to share that I started my career and said I'm always gonna work with kids because if you're an adult and you're a jerk, it's too late for you. Now that is really naive to say, you know, 25 years later, I'm embarrassed that that was my way of thinking. I was saying that to justify that I love working with kids, but I had my own kids and I really wanted to save my sort of child energy for my kids and the community that we have. So I started working with older men and eventually sort of landed on men and fathers as a way of working. And as that was developing, as I was then specializing in learning and doing a lot of research on masculine psychology and sociology, you know, all of these things. I also simultaneously was going through a change in the narratives that I work with, that I love.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:14:26]:
So you may have heard of the hero's journey. It is a narrative that is sort of ubiquitous in our culture. It's all the the Pixar movies, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, all of these things. I love that narrative. I wrote my dissertation from the metaphor of that narrative, and it probably was 85 to 95% of all of the interventions, questions, and and work that I did was based around a really in-depth learning of the hero's journey. That said, about 15 years ago, something hit me. Part of narrative therapy is this idea of questioning taken for granted stories. So in professional honesty, I had to question my own favorite narrative, the hero's journey.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:15:04]:
Long story short, I actually now feel that although I still love The Hero's Journey, it's actually not complete. And the fact that it is so omnipresent is actually quite damaging to boys and men. And the fact that our primary narrative models tell us that we either have to be epic or legendary in order to be worthy is really troubling and damaging to men who, most men who are going to work and coming home and you know, doing the dishes and things like that. And so the challenge or the the passion part of developing journeyman came from working more and more with men and fathers and finding how powerful that work was. It came from developing a counternarrative to the hero's journey, which I now call foundational adventures. And it came to this idea of like listening to men who, you know, may be super successful at work, but then they come home and they're lost. They come home and they're stuck. They come home and where's my place? There's a fact, a detail that I remember reading somewhere.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:16:01]:
I won't use the exact numbers because I'll get it wrong, but there is a large amount of men who are largely spending more time at home than ever before, which we might think, hey. That's wonderful. And it is. But there's also hasn't been the equal amount of growth and development for father about what to do when they're at home. So that they're staying more at home. Some guys are getting it lucky and doing well and and being real present to their kids. But many men are staying at or or at home more with their kids, but coming at it with the same mindset mentality and social training that we've had for the last 100 years, which means that they're at home more and there's more opportunities to make trouble or mistakes or propagate this sort of mindset. And so the idea for me is that Journeymen was, how do we write new narratives for masculinity and fatherhood that involve and include a partnership at home and honor going and battling dragons or being off at work doing things and really developing deeper, more meaningful stories for men who just like everyone else on the planet, need emotional connections, strong deep depth of relationships, and love, frankly.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]:
And talk to me about over the years, you've been doing this journeyman work since 2019 when you started things. And I'm sure over the time and over working with men in this work that you learned a lot more about men, but also more about yourself. And talk to me about that. And what have been some of the biggest takeaways for yourself as a father, a husband, a man that you're putting now into place in your own life and some of the things that you're learning about the work that you're doing and some of the biggest struggles that men are struggling with?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:17:46]:
The front of mind answer around learnings for me personally that I'm learning from the work and then bringing it home and then bring it back to the work deep in it is none of us are done. I think I'm pretty conscientious. I'm pretty aware. You know, all of these things, and I am. And yet recently, my wife and I had a huge argument about something that was very based in sort of sexism, very based in my unwillingness to be open to a partnership, ideal. And frankly, initially, when she said it that way, I was offended. Like, I wasn't open. I do this work every day.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:18:21]:
And, you know, all of a sudden, I'm getting called out for something. And once I breathed, once I, like, let it sort of settle a little bit, it was really powerful for me to say, okay, you're right. Some of this patriarchal thought or dominance based culture, however we wanna talk about it, is so deeply embedded in all of us. And so for me, it's that there's always growth, potential, and possibility. And I've been using this statement a lot both at work and at home, but the magic and the treasure is in the muck. There's this narrative. There's this story in our culture that it'll be good when. As long as I get to blank or once I turn blank, you know, like, once I get to the end, it'll be better.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:19:00]:
And I think there's such a problematic ideology there. And so a lot of it is in the muck, in the marshes, in the trouble. That's where the magic is. That's where the treasure is. And so one of the best learnings that came from that that I bring back to the work at Journeyman is we do a lot of values work. You know, let's learn what's important to us. And I do something called the values compass. It's an exercise where we pick 4 values that are can be visibly expressed, that I can see, right? Not this big ethereal, vague value, but something that is real can be specific.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:19:36]:
And I have the guys pick 4 values that are inherently connected to the goal, the treasure that they're working on. And we put them in a compass. Well, what we've started to talk about in addition to the magic is in the muck is that our values are both the directional points and the steps on your path on your journey and the treasure. So if I'm following my values, number 1, I know the right direction and choices to make. But number 2, if I'm following my values, I'm feeling better. I'm doing better. I'm acting better. So I've actually achieved my goal on the way towards achieving my goal.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:20:14]:
And so that you're always going up and down with that. It's a challenge and it's it's terribly difficult to live your values in the everyday. And so when we're doing it, let's recognize it and say, oh, I found a treasure. I've hit a goal. Now it's time to get back to it because I gotta keep walking. I'm in the muck. Right? And so it's nothing new. It's nothing some it's not an insight that I think I've developed.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:20:34]:
I mean, Buddhists have lots of people have used it forever. I think there's a saying, no mud, no lotus. That's in a saying. Same kind of thing is that our challenges, our arguments, our conflicts are is always an opportunity for growth, and that's where the treasure is.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:47]:
I love that. And I love that statement because I think you're completely right. I mean, there is a lot of muck that we go through in being fathers and being men. I guess one of the questions that I would have for you in the work that you're doing is there are going to be fathers that have not worked with you, but are thinking to themselves, you know what? There's some things that we that I could maybe be doing here based on what Jason's saying. What are some initial steps, some things that they could do right now today that could get them moving in at least the right direction? It may still mean that they wanna work with you down the road, but at least to have either an internal dialogue or have something that will allow for them to push themselves in the right direction in this regard.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:21:30]:
I think the first step and and I have guys do this early on in the work anyway, and I I it's I think it's really important. There's there's 2 different things to become aware of. The first is what do we want? And I can blow that out. What kind of father do I wanna be? What kind of sons or daughters do I wanna raise? Not that I have much control over that, but in an ideal sense, what would I like to give to my kids? What kind of legacy do I wanna to share with them? What kind of values do I want to do I want to exist in my household? And really taking a look at what I would like that to be. How I would like do I want a household where after dinner, everybody's sitting on the same couch looking at their phones? Do I wanna have a household where everybody goes back to their rooms and does whatever, but we're not connected? Do I wanna have some mixture of that, but also, like, I don't know, we're playing board games at night or whatever, but, like, real specific, what do I want my household, my home to look like? And how do I want the relationships of the people who I purport to love the most? How do I want them to be? So I want first to ask men, how do you get clear on that? Do you want to spend your time tinkering in the garage or do you wanna be with the kids? Do you want what do you want? Do you want more intimacy with your wife? I had one guy who joined Journeyman said, I want my kids to be as comfortable holding my hand at 22 as they are at 12 and that they were at 2 and he said doesn't have to be literally holding my hands, but metaphorically, I want them to have that same level of comfort throughout their life. And that was his goal. That was his treasure. So I wanna encourage fathers to think about what are the ongoing relational goals that they have in their home, with their partner, with their kids, with themselves.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:23:15]:
So that would be step 1. And step 2 would be, what's getting in the way? And it's time to be radically honest with yourselves, guys. Right? What is getting in the way? Let's just use the example of not wanting everyone to be on their own phones and to be dialoguing or spending time together or doing something. What's really getting in the way? Starting with you and the other adults in the house. If you look at yourself, a lot of journeymen, a lot of the work there, I always am very explicit. It's not a parenting group. We talk about parenting. We talk about that.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:23:43]:
It's not about getting your kids to eat vegetables or go to bed on time, or learn to drive the car responsibly. It's men's work. It's about you being a stronger, more present, grounded man who can be in relationship, who can be in partnership. And so with that, you're gonna be a better father. You're gonna be a better partner. You're gonna be a better, more present to everything that's going on. So to answer your question more succinctly is get it clear with what you want at home and get clear about what you really give a shit about and what's getting in the way. What's getting in the way? What are the obstacles? Right? Are you too tired? Are you too stressed? Are you is your own pattern to isolate when things happen? Is your own pattern to get reactive? What is the thing that keeps you from those goals that you're looking for and name it.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:24:26]:
Can't tell you how important that is. Once you name the obstacle, you have some control over it. And I've had clients who, once they identify it, really understand it and give it a name, I've had clients tell me like, oh my god, things are so much better. Just because they start to notice and they start to give something a name, you have some power. So those would be the 2 steps that I would suggest anyone can start to get a handle on before even getting into this work more deeply.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:48]:
Well, I appreciate you sharing that because I think it is a journey and definitely something that will take time and effort, and you may have to get out of some bad practices or bad ruts that your family might have gotten into, especially over COVID or other aspects that change things. You know, you may have to make some adjustments within your home and really think deeply about where you want to be, where you are right now, as Jason already said. Now, Jason, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:25:22]:
Before you start, can I add one thing? It'll be very quick. I am realizing I'm reflecting even on what I said, and it all sounds very heady and up here. More importantly or most importantly is, like, having some fun. I think so much of what men do is we go to work, we come home, we discipline, we but have fun with your family. Like, you love them. Have fun with them. And I just think that so much of the work, while it has this real heady, deep depth underground, a lot of the work, especially at Journeyman, is around fun. It's around metaphor.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:25:53]:
It's around being silly. It's around all those things. And so I can't emphasize that enough is that men need to be having more fun. So anyway, the fatherhood 5 we can get into, but I didn't wanna not say that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:05]:
Connections.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:06]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:10]:
I watch my 2 sons being friends. They're 3 and a half years apart and they're buddies. They really are. And they admit it. They like to admit it. They'll argue like other brothers, but they are close. And I watch them. My parents did the same thing, but I, my wife and I always said, we would love for our boys to be aligned together even more than they're aligned with us, and truly they are.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:31]:
And so that that's a success. That's a big win for me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]:
If I were to talk to your sons, how would they describe you as a dad?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:38]:
It depends on the day. I think they would say that I'm silly. I am annoyingly optimistic and positive. I love to cook and I love to take care of them.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:49]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:51]:
Well, they do for 1, for sure. My wife does. My own parents do. And I'm really fortunate, actually. I have a close group of male friends. And the depth of friendship that I with them is unusual. And I don't take it for granted, but all of them are either fathers or uncles and are good men. And so there's a mutual, like, love, respect, and inspiration in terms of doing better.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:13]:
You've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for people to think about and to delve a little bit deeper into their own psyche and themselves to figure out kind of where they're at and where they wanna be. But as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:27:28]:
Hug and kiss your kids and say the words I love you. I mean it, of course, but I think the small actions count. I think the piece of advice is really hug, kiss, and saying I love you can be lots of things, but the small intentional and consistent actions are more important than any grandiose gesture that you can do. We're working at a long term deep foundation. And so if you want your kids to be the kind of humans that you're hoping for and to have a relationship for life, then play the lifelong game. And so small, consistent, intentional actions are really the way to go.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:06]:
Now we talked about Journeyman. We talked about the work that you're doing. If people wanna find out more about you, about Journeymen, where's the best place for them to go?Dr. Jason Frishman [00:28:13]:
The 2 places. First is I live on the website, so journeymenfoundation dotcom. The other piece is right now, I say sometimes we, but it's really me. So if you email jason@nourished connections.com, you'll get me directly. And I I really enjoy connecting with people who are either fathers or who love fathers and wanna be supportive. And so those are the 2 most direct ways, but I'm also on social media. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. And one thing that I would offer is, and I can send you a link afterwards, is I did put together this sort of it's the 10 fastest, most effective ways that fathers can connect with their kids.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:28:49]:
And it's all about the small, consistent actions. I do every single one of them. So this isn't just something I write about. I'm also the president. And so I can send the link to that and people are more than welcome to as soon as you when you go to that link, you can download that copy. Every single one on there, I think I timed it once. If you did all 10, I think there's a bonus 11. But if you did all 10, it's less than 12 minutes every day.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:11]:
I love it, and we'll definitely add it to the notes today and add it in so everyone can take 10 minutes to reconnect and to better connect with your kids. Jason, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best.Dr. Jason Frishman [00:29:27]:
Oh, thank you so much. This has been great. I really appreciate it.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:29]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.
Get out and be the world to them. Them. Be the best dad you can be.
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A Heartfelt Conversation
In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Gerard Gousman to explore the unique experiences and challenges he faces as a father of four sons. Gerard shares his heartfelt insights and practical advice, making this episode a must-listen for every dad striving to be the best parent they can be. Let's dive into the critical themes and topics discussed during their engaging conversation.
Reflecting on the Initial Stages of Fatherhood
Gerard Gousman opens up about his initial reactions to becoming a father. The mix of excitement, fear, and overwhelming responsibility is something many new dads can resonate with. "It's like stepping into a world where you have no previous experience," says Gerard, reflecting on the early days of fatherhood. As he navigated through sleepless nights and constant second-guessing, Gerard began to understand the profound and rewarding nature of being a dad.
The Dynamics of Parenting at Different Stages
Parenting isn't a 'one size fits all' journey, and Gerard underscores this by discussing the differences in parenting toddlers, preteens, and teenagers. He highlights the importance of flexibility and adaptation, learning to adjust his parenting style to each child's unique needs and communication preferences. By doing so, Gerard has been able to maintain close relationships with his kids, fostering an environment where they feel safe and understood.
Embracing Technology and Remote Living
With the shift to remote work and education, Gerard speaks on the challenges and opportunities this new dynamic brings. Living in a more remote setting has highlighted the importance of balancing screen time with physical activity and real-world interactions. Gerard emphasizes finding creative solutions to keep his children engaged and active, such as outdoor adventures and tech-free family time.
The Pressures and Expectations of Fatherhood
One of the most relatable aspects of Gerard's story is his fear of not meeting the high standards and expectations of modern fatherhood. "There's always this lingering worry—am I doing enough?" Gerard admits candidly. Over time, he learned that striving for perfection isn't sustainable. Instead, he focuses on being present and consistent, realizing that it's the simple, everyday moments that matter most.
Creating Wins and Building a Cool Dad Reputation
A shining light in Gerard’s journey is his 'cool dad' win at the trampoline park. Taking his 7-year-old and a friend out for some jumping fun led to high praise from the friend, labeling Gerard as the "coolest dad at school." This moment encapsulates the joy of being an involved parent and solidifies Gerard's belief in the importance of participating in his children's interests.
Finding Inspiration and Support
Gerard draws inspiration from his children's growth and positivity and from other supportive dads who share their journeys. He emphasizes the importance of finding a community, whether through local groups or online platforms. These connections offer a sense of belonging and a wealth of shared knowledge, making the challenges of fatherhood feel less isolating.
Advice for New Dads: Stay Happy and True to Yourself
To new fathers, Gerard offers sage advice: "Don't lose yourself after becoming a father. Your happiness is crucial for your family's well-being." He encourages dads to pursue their interests and maintain their personal happiness, which in turn creates a more joyful and balanced family environment.
Transitioning Careers for Family
Gerard's decision to transition from a high-pressure career in the event management and music industry to being a stay-at-home dad speaks volumes about his commitment to his family. He discusses the fear of missing out (FOMO) and the challenges of shifting focus from an active social lifestyle to home life. Parenthood required him to reevaluate his priorities and embrace a new, fulfilling role.
Navigating Family Dynamics and Individual Needs
Understanding that each child is unique, Gerard keeps notes on his children's favorite things to use as points of connection when other communication methods fail. This personalized approach has helped him navigate tough conversations and strengthen his bond with each child.
Advocating for At-Home Dads
Gerard has become a vocal advocate for at-home dads, participating in a New York Times article to challenge stereotypes. His efforts have been met with positive responses from friends and other fathers, underscoring the value of representation and community.
The Role of Community in Fatherhood
Finding a supportive Fatherhood community, like the National At Home Dad Network and local dad groups, has been instrumental in Gerard’s journey. He emphasizes the importance of reaching out and connecting with others who understand and appreciate the unique challenges and rewards of fatherhood.
The Simple Joys of Fatherhood For Gerard, fatherhood in one word is "amazing." It's the little victories, the shared laughs, and the opportunity to watch his children grow that make the journey so rewarding. As he continues to adapt and learn, Gerard remains a beacon of positivity and strength for his family.
In summary, Gerard Gousman's journey is a powerful reminder that fatherhood, with all its ups and downs, is an ever-evolving adventure. His insights and experiences provide invaluable lessons for dads at any stage, encouraging them to embrace the journey with an open heart and a flexible mindset.
TRANSCRIPT
Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dance with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. You know, every week, I love being able to sit down and talk with you, to work with you, to help you on this journey that you're on. Each one of us is on a unique journey. And you have daughters, I have daughters, but we learn from each other. We learn from others. And the more that we're willing to step out and hear what others have to say, step out and take in that learning, take in what others have to say, the more that you're going to be able to be that engaged dad, and that father that you want to be to your children. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different perspectives and, and different from different walks of life that have gone through either fatherhood in a different way have different resources that they can share. And I love being able to do that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]:
Because, as I said, each one of us is on a unique journey, but we can learn from each other and we can help each other along the way. This week, we got another great guest with us. Gerard Guzman is with us today. Gerard is a father of 4 sons. And you might be saying, well, this is the dads with daughters podcast. Why are we having a father of sons here? Well, there's a reason and we're gonna be talking about that. Gerard went through his own journey as a working dad that made some choices, made some choices to be that active, engaged dad that he wanted to be and may have made some choices that you might have made or might not have made. We're gonna talk about that.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]:
And I'm really excited to have him here, be able to share his story, learn a little bit more about him. Gerard, thanks so much for being here today.Gerard Gousman [00:01:53]:
Thanks for having me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:54]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to have you on and being able to learn more about you. 1st and foremost, I love being able to start the podcast with the opportunity to go back in time, get in the in that proverbial time machine. I want to go all the way back. I know you've got kids that range from 22 months all the way to 22 years. So I want to go back maybe 23 years, I want to go back to that first moment that you you found out that you were going to be a father. What was going through your head?Gerard Gousman [00:02:19]:
For the first time, I was young. I was in college scared, excited, hopeful. It was there from was the experience of not knowing what was ahead of me, but, like, alright. Trying to figure out, alright. How can how do I do this? How do I be a dad? And I look at the examples of examples around me and okay. To figure out how long if I take a little piece of pieces of this from the different dads I know and trying to grab what I thought was right. And, of course, none of us do it right. It's from the start. So got that knocked myself off, knocked my dust myself off, and got back up and keep trying it again and again until some point in the next couple weeks. I think I may get it right.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:55]:
I'll have to check back with you in that few weeks and see if you actually hit that point because I don't know if any of us do it right all the time. And we definitely stumble, fall, pick ourselves back up, as you said. And our kids are gonna be the first ones to point out when we make mistakes. So that's definitely the case. Now, as I said, you've got kids that range from 22 years to 22 months. And with each and every child, you have to parent in a little bit different way. And you've learned things along the way, but you've got a very young child and a child that's potentially out of the nest in regards to grown, flown, starting his adult life now. So talk to me about what you've learned along the way and how you're parenting your 22 month old now differently than you may have parented your 22 year old.Gerard Gousman [00:03:44]:
Yeah. It's definitely a much different world now, physical world and just my immediate world where I'm coming from then being young and my experience, all things that come with being a young adult in a big city and trying to do that. And it was also at the time of really starting. I was in music and college and working in marketing. Just Just starting out working in marketing in events and just trying to navigate and figure out what I was gonna be and what I was gonna do. And some of the experiences I have always been of the mind is bring trying to do as much as you can to marry marry my worlds together. I was trying to bring the kids out into the events and never use that having kids excuse to not be able to do something that you probably could do with them. That's something I've always tried to maintain with of showing my kids as much of the world and as many different experiences as I can.Gerard Gousman [00:04:39]:
And still to this day doing that, but a bit differently, plus the mix of technology, and we're a little more remote than we were then. And starting out, I was with in Chicago, it's so close to a lot of family. But now remote here in the on the West Coast, and most of my family is still Midwest and back east. So it's completely different raising the family, raising kids away from the family, and not having a strong of a communal family support.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]:
Now you mentioned at the beginning when you first had your first child, you were definitely a little bit scared. And I think there's some fear that goes along with every father, Whether you have daughters, whether you have sons, in some aspect, when you bring a new child into the world, there's always some fear. What was your biggest fear in being a father?Gerard Gousman [00:05:22]:
A lot. I think of not being able to hold up to the standards that I had, I guess, as a kid, like, what the ideal dad was. Like, when I grow up, when I have kids, I'm never gonna yell, and I'm gonna always be there, and I'm always gonna be smart, and I'm gonna trust my kids and know all the things that you wanted as a child from your parents. I'm like, I'm gonna be that parent. Like, how do I hold up to be that parent that I wanted as a kid? And then I realized, like, that's not realistic. You you quickly learn, like, oh, that's why they were always tired. That's why they were always yelling. Like, in retrospect, that was very dangerous. It's finding that out that I could try to bring in those parts of me that I wanted to mold and have my parenting style being able to live up to that standard.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:13]:
Now with the fact that your children are at different points, different ages, different experience levels, and you look at that fear now in regard to what you've gone through. Is the fear that you have as a father different for your 22 month old in the life that he will have versus the fear that you have now for your adult son?Gerard Gousman [00:06:35]:
Think of are you thinking in in time that learn to be a lot more flexible and not take not take the losses as hard. And sometimes, like, I take the stumbles as much. I mean, there's simply times where you do everything you can and things don't work out, but you say, alright. Didn't work out this time. How do I learn from this experience and use it to parent better down the road? So going back to things I thought of with now with my now 7 year old being the 1st grader and thinking back to when my oldest was in that age and trying not to put as much pressure, like, that pressure to be the best student and be the nicest kid and be perfect in public and be respectful. Be always be as respectful as possible and and to try to keep them as polished they could. And now being a point of letting them breathe and kinda learn their own way and instilling those the same principles in them, but not instilling the pressure as much. I wanna know that, yeah, it's okay to take those missteps and but being able to be open and and be able to come back to us as parents and know that we have that support level of support that I don't think I instilled in my kids, in my older kids when they were younger.Gerard Gousman [00:07:52]:
It's kinda that these are your benchmarks. You gotta hit them. You gotta hit them. And now it's like, alright. If you don't, that's okay. We can find a way to make up the gap.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:00]:
And kinda chuckling to myself because I think as you go through life as a parent, and I I could just imagine your oldest son saying to you, you were so much harder on me and you kept me to a different standard than than you're holding to my younger siblings. And you do. You know, it's not that you're favoring one than another, but you learn. And as you said, you become more laid back, I believe. The more fathers that I talk to, the more kids that they have, I think the more laid back they do become.Gerard Gousman [00:08:28]:
Yeah. And then the thing of knowing how like, in the beginning, you don't know what the outcome or outcomes be, but outcomes will be. But as it goes on, you kinda you understand the patterns. You see the algorithm of life. And, like, okay. I know where before I had to make the 6 or 7 steps. I know that 2 or 3 of those steps weren't really important and kinda slowed things up. So now being able to have been able to more fine tune things in real time and just being more aware of those benchmarks that we like I said before about trying to hit those and not it's not always the most important thing. Sometimes the trying is enough.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:03]:
Now I know that or you, as you said, you were a employee for many years, you worked out in the world, doing event management, Salt N Pepper, Cat Power. I mean, lots of artists that were out there. You were traveling a lot, and at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that some changes need to be had, and you needed to be closer to home. You needed to be able to be more a part of the family. Talk to me about that internal conversation you had to have, the conversation you had to have with your wife as well to think about this in a different scenario that made you make some choices that were going to substantially change your life and change your family's life?Gerard Gousman [00:09:50]:
Yeah. Well, I think into that point, it was sitting around the birth of my 3rd, and the 2nd one's went through, and it was kinda wandering in between, I guess, seasons. I guess the way the event seasons go, it's kinda like the tail end and starting I don't know. I wanted to be there and support my wife as much as I could that and doing the beginning of the maternity leave and school being able to really be a part of the moments, all of the pre visits and all that stuff and really having the excitement of the pregnancy. That's not that I missed out by. My other 2 was just, like, being out on the road and traveling and not being able to be there for the earliest moments. And once it got to that point of, like, seeing it, I knew I could be there. And one of the things made it a lot easier is is the decision to be able to support my wife in her career.Gerard Gousman [00:10:38]:
And she she was on the upper trajectory. And Shrunkar Bennett really got into a point where she was really making strides and wanted to be able to support her in that and give that example for the kids as well. Like, I know I could do this and with cards on the table and look to see what our strengths were. It's like, yeah. I I can do this and give you that so you need to go back and focus on your career and or can I can hold it down here and still be able to do things that I needed to do for myself? And when it I think I've built a strong relationship with my wife, and we are to the point that we are very open communicators in regards to what our immediate needs are. Like, we tend to check-in with each other, and where it may not be something long gone or drawn out, we know when something's not right and, like, always we try to stay on the same page much as possible. And I think that helped make the transition a lot easier, just knowing that I can instill a system, and we have our routines in the house, and it makes us it could be able to flow. And we are able to still have a lot of the things that we loved about life before.Gerard Gousman [00:11:41]:
Like, we're avid campers, and we like to travel. And being able to do that stuff with the kids while they're young, I think, has been great for me. Like, definitely a lot of those day to day, like, month to month, the growing things, like, being able to notice little height differences. Like, that arm's longer than it was a few weeks ago. And having full conversations with the baby, and actually, like, because I'm with because I'm with him, I understand what he's saying. And so you're having those things that priceless and suits so valuable, and, like, I know you never get that time. It's really knowing the value of the time. It's been more valuable than however much I would have made out there in the field.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:21]:
So talk to me a little bit about that transition, that transition from work at work outside of the house, traveling, working in the industry, working with artists, you know, that high pressure, high paced life to transitioning to home and being that stay at home dad where you're running the household, keeping things running while your wife is working on her career. What was the hardest part for you in making that transition? And what were some of the things that you had to fundamentally change to be able to help you to make that transition?Gerard Gousman [00:12:52]:
Honestly, coming from for being, very active and constantly out, going out 3, 4 nights a week even when I'm not wasn't working or I wasn't traveling. Still going home and being active in my local art and music event scene. There's no stand abreast. You gotta keep your faces in a place to be active. You're not around. You're not in. Right? So it's coming from making just that desire and having that FOMO was the big thing of man, I'm missing out on a lot of stuff, all those opportunities. And it's it's like the music festivals and concerts and stuff.Gerard Gousman [00:13:26]:
It's that high energy. Always go, never knowing exactly what's gonna be next, which some days, that's what it's like around here. And, see, see, making that transition was not as hard as I thought it would be at first using a lot of the things that I learned on the day to day managing the field, the schedules, and having those routines, dealing with wrangling wild and unruly staff and artists. I'm like, it's pretty much what I'm doing here, keeping everything afloat. It's that mode of getting into not having that FOMO and finding what elements of that former life can I bring in? I guess the biggest thing is just that missing out on the activity of being around the my peers. I think that was the hardest part of the disconnect of the transition of not being having that peer relationship. As much as I could, we could go out and take kids to do stuff, but kinda hard to have that feel. Getting over that and finding supplements and finding community and that were more in tune with that part of my lifestyle.Gerard Gousman [00:14:30]:
It has been good and just working with the National At Home Dad Network, and I that was a godsend for me, being able to find find the group. And, like, man, there's a whole community of dads out there. It kinda opened me up to me to see, like, yeah. I'm not as isolated in this as I believe I was in the beginning. That's that made things so much easier, designing was really being able to know that I could go out and find the communities if I look for them. And then once I found a couple of places to be able to places to commiserate or places to share what, for me, it would have been a big win. Like, hey. Today today was a no blowout day.Gerard Gousman [00:15:09]:
First no blowout day. That's a big deal. My all working, partying event friends were like, no. That's they don't care about them. Like, so finding people that what are my constituted a big win in my current life, finding a community that understood those moments.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]:
So talk to me about community because you mentioned that you got connected at the national level with the At Home Dad Network and how we've had some past guests from the At Home Debt Network on the show. Talk to me about finding that community, what you had to do to find that community, not only nationally through the work that you're doing on the board of the At Home Dad Network now, but but even locally of being able to find those peers or those other dads that were going through similar things that you could start to have a new community for yourself. What did you have to do to be able to initially find that community and then build, hone, and grow that community for yourself?Gerard Gousman [00:16:04]:
Kinda funny. I use some of the things that I would use initially in, like, having events and finding the different event communities and nightlife sectors. They're just going going through and mining through Facebook and different like Facebook and Tumblr and Reddit and looking for those communities and realizing that there are thriving online communities of engaged, active fathers and really putting myself out there and, like, hey, this is what I'm looking for. This is this is what I'm struggling with. These are the problems I'm having. Anybody ever experienced this? And and then finding there's 100 guys like, yeah. Last week, that was me. Exactly that.Gerard Gousman [00:16:42]:
Last week. We do that both finding that online community, but finding that those those guys were here in my state, in in my in town and going in, like, alright. Putting myself out there. Hey, you guys. Let's get together. Let's meet. Let's go out and do some media at the park or the toddler gym or we should get out and have a beer or something. And when I took it on myself to really throw myself into it, like, if I don't put myself out there and find it, it's not going it's not just gonna come to and knowing that I was struggling with that disconnect, with that FOMO, just like and having that having that backup. This is something that's not ideas off of with other dads. Once I found myself really being able to throw myself into it and reach out to other dads that I knew, like, a and ask them, like, hey. Are you suffering with the same stuff that I have? And, like, no. No. I'm good. Well, actually, yeah. I didn't wanna say anything, but, yeah, I feel that too in, like, of having friends that, like, man, you know what? Let me check on some of my mom check on my dad friends. And, like, I know how I'm feeling. Let me check up on them. And then once doing that, like, seeing it there like, yeah, a lot of us were having that same thing, but, like, not feeling that we had anybody to talk to. So I might try to invite them into different spaces or just always make make myself available to be a space for my immediate community of dads. Then I've gone on to, like, join my local PTA and try being more active in my kids' school and work with some of the dads there to have more of the fathers on campus and doing doing things and more active in the events. And that has helped. Definitely had comments from other dads in the school.Gerard Gousman [00:18:21]:
And it's great to see you always there. Like, I was nervous about going because it's always just the moms, but seeing you in in it and active, like, made me feel okay. Alright? There'll at least be somebody another dad there to talk to. And and every time now I go out, go to pick up the kids, like, hey, man. I see some of the dads, like, hey, we doing this or something. Just checking in on how you doing. Like, not how you doing, but how are you? And checking in on the other day, that's when I see them at pick up and inviting them into the spaces in school and and know, like, hey, it's not a spady thing. They're not gonna load up on you.Gerard Gousman [00:18:48]:
Be more active. You got to support. There's other guys here that get it. And we're starting to start to have more of the dads in our school community be more active and stepping up and taking a lead on things. So that's been great to see.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:05]:
Yeah. It's so exciting to to hear that you're finding that community. I think that whether you're working or not, it's so important to find a community that you connect with and don't go through fatherhood feeling like you have to do everything by yourself because so many times men step into fatherhood thinking, I've got to know everything. I've got to be that expert. I've got to be the man per se. And you don't you don't have to be the man. You can be a man and know that there are so many other people right around your block or in your apartment complex. No matter where you live that are going through similar things, you just have to reach out and you have to talk to them and just kinda, Gerard, like you said, just say, how are you and truly be willing to ask the question and see and understand and connect on that deeper level.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:59]:
So, Gerard, one of the things that I guess that I would ask is now you've got kids at different ages. They're involved in so many different things. The personalities are probably very different from one another. How do you keep that connection and build those unique relationships with each of your kids?Gerard Gousman [00:20:17]:
That part definitely difficult, especially once the teenage years and they grow and get their independence, and they construct their own communities. I think I always tap in and let them know I relate to what's going on. I try to I'll let them know, like, I'm always available to talk. Especially for the older kids, like, we don't talk as much and maybe a like my 16 year old.Gerard Gousman [00:20:42]:
Are you good? I'm cool. Alright. Tell me about your day. What's we gonna tell me about your week. Alright. Anything new? No. And I'm like, alright. So I'll check-in next month. They're going through and make it a point of having to go on to the, like, all the the school forums and following the the different school Facebook groups and different stuff. Like, I'm like, you got a key from the mayor? Why didn't you tell anybody? Like, it wasn't a big deal. What? The mayor came to send me a school and no. You didn't you didn't wanna tell anybody that that was happening. Like, that isn't a big deal. Well, at least put on a nice shirt that day. So things like that. Like, wanting to be open when I can. I know, not the hippest. They're definitely difficult across but they're totally different generations, I guess. If you ask them, they're totally different generations. What worked with the oldest, I mean, I know I could even work with the 16 year old and between the 16 and the 17 year old.Gerard Gousman [00:21:36]:
The way I could communicate and relate with 1 to a totally different approach to the other. And so I'm going through and finding those personality points and being able to figure out, adjust, and tweak my parenting style for each of them. Just realizing that, alright, the way I can talk to one isn't the same as other. Like, one, I can go through and ask something, and they'll just ramble on and tell you all the detail. Another one, it puts pulling teeth. You're asking it's 50 questions. It's 50 questions together. How was your day? Just to get to that point.Gerard Gousman [00:22:08]:
And so finding a way that it each communicates and how to research. I wanna watch videos and read articles and Internet snooping and going on to TikTok and Instagram and going through the trends, like, alright. What did I hear them mention? They're in, like, alright. And just trying to stay abreast of what's what's hip in their different areas. Like, alright. What's hip for the in this age group? What's hip in this age group? And how just using those little points I can to as a point of relation to open them up because I may ask a bunch of questions, but then I may mention something about this one artist. And that may be the thing that unlocks that that window that was shut in with blinds and locked and curtains across it. Now our sun's coming right on in now.Gerard Gousman [00:22:54]:
It's like, oh, yeah.Gerard Gousman [00:22:55]:
That's my favorite song. I was thinking about that. You know what? I was talking to my friends today. You know, we were thinking about going to Greece. I'm like, oh, IGerard Gousman [00:23:01]:
asked you, had you heard this song? All the information I've been trying to get out of you for a month has just come down because I asked you, had you heard this new song? So I'm interested in finding things like that, those little points of connection where I can. And I keep a little Google Keep note list of the things like favorite food and drink orders, and stuff like that. They mentioned this artist one time. Make sure I remember on that. And just jotting down little things for each kid that those bigger points of relation that I can come back to when that normal communication isn't working.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]:
So this whole story of what we've been talking about was recently put out in front of the world through a New York Times article. And talk to me about that, and why you chose to be a part of that article, why you wanted your story out there, but also what has come from that story being shared? And what are you hearing not only from people around you, but people broader than in your local community.Gerard Gousman [00:24:02]:
Yeah. So, so that was a great opportunity. I was definitely happy to be included. The writer, Kelly Coyne, reached out to me, and we had a great discussion about some of the some of this about my experiences asGerard Gousman [00:24:15]:
a father and just in the changing styles of fatherhood, and wanted to work with the org with that Home Dad Network. That's been one of our mission. Being able to help update that face of parenthood and kinda change the popular conception of at home dads. I wanted to have them be included because it's been an interesting journey for me and having more dads be open about the experience. And we we do we have a lot of that. I definitely have gotten that mister mom comment from strangers and friends alike as both an insult and as a compliment from it being termed as something endearing and something as a joke. And knowing that we'd be able to put to face a fatherhood that can be active in being at home and regularly engage fathers, not just done one way. There's not just one way to do that.Gerard Gousman [00:25:10]:
So that's something I wanted to, I guess, give my perspective on, of the way that it works for us versus the way that some other dads mentioned the way that they came to this point of being at home dad and being a primary caregiver. So it was honor to be able to share that perspective. I think having some of the response I've gotten, really great all around, friends, family. But having other guys that I know that were dads reach out, I think that's been the best part of seeing, like, man, that's cool. Like, I really really wish I could do that. Like, I wanna do that, but I don't think I have it in me to be able to teach my kids on the day of having the patience or having a structure and being able to be open with them. It's like, hey. It's it's not all every day is not great.Gerard Gousman [00:25:56]:
It's not all wins, but it's all positive. It's all necessary. Like, I am always happy at the end result. Right? And once I you have to have those points hitting those walls and having the end result, like, at the end of day, like, well, it's more worse circumstances we could be in and being happy that I am able to have the opportunity. Having the privilege to be able to be in a position that I can be here and make these mistakes and learn with my family and help my family grow. I guess, I haven't had it's negative. I did have, but I reached out for an interview, and it was kinda the the other side of it, they want it, bro. What's the negative response you've gotten? Like, there hasn't isn't any.Gerard Gousman [00:26:35]:
Like, what was the bad part? It's not. It's been great as far as the experience. Of course, there's always small things, family things that happen, but it has been a majorly positive experience because that's what I make it. And it's like if in being able to relate that to other fathers. The experience is gonna be what you make. It's not gonna be easy. It's not gonna be as hard as you think it will be either. It definitely will be the days where you gotta sit in the emergency room after you but you get up early and think you're gonna go to bed early, and it's like next thing, you know, you're up till 3 AM, and you gotta get up at 7 AM the next day.Gerard Gousman [00:27:09]:
It's like but you keep going, and you find the time to make your peace. And that's the biggest thing that has made this a positive and more eased experience for me, is the focus that my wife and I put on having our home be a place of peace. And I instillment with the kids. Like, I yell just like most dads, I'm sure, yell. Then circling back on that, circling back. Alright. Oh, bring that back. That's why I yelled.Gerard Gousman [00:27:38]:
We need to stop yelling as a collective and learning how to quiet yell. This is something I've been working on with the baby, this quiet yelling with him. Like, you can be you can be mad. You can scream, but don't scream at me. I am so angry right now. Don't do that. Like, see? It still works. He reads the facial.Gerard Gousman [00:27:58]:
I'm like, he can read the facial expressions. Okay. Okay.Gerard Gousman [00:28:02]:
And so sometimes that he's gonnaGerard Gousman [00:28:04]:
go into it, and I'm learning, seeing that he is learning that as well, He's screaming, and then he was I'm like, you're getting it. Okay? So I think I'm a you know, things of being able to share the learnings with so much the with the broader community of dads and parents. But just having that small community of dads that I've been friends with forever coming to me and be like, you know what? I've been struggling. I didn't think I could do this. But, you know, I I read your piece and seen your piece like, man, it's thank you. Thank you for putting on that face for us and know that it is hard and that we can do this. And I think that's been the best response for me was having dads that that I knew come to me and, like, that's it right there.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:48]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Okay. In one word, what is fatherhood?Gerard Gousman [00:28:57]:
Yes. What indeed? It's it is a constant what. Amazing.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:03]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father?Gerard Gousman [00:29:07]:
Sometime between 3 and 3:15. Last week, I figured a point to kinda catalog my wins so that on those bad days, those those days I'll take the l, I can draw back to them. So I had one last week. I took my 7 year old and one of his friends, one of his classmates. They were on spring break last week. Took him took him to trampoline par, and it's how seeing how happy they were and having the friend comment like, gee, I always knew you were the coolest dad at school.Gerard Gousman [00:29:36]:
And I was like, you remember to tell all the other kids that when you go back to school next week. Okay? He's like, oh, they already know. Like, you alright. Now you're just messing with me. Get out of here. I'm like, what do you want?Gerard Gousman [00:29:46]:
He's like, no. Really? We like you. It's like, okay. Maximus is that's my son. Like, Maximus is always he sure ain't always happy, and he seems to have a lot of fun. And you guys do cool things, and you always do cool stuff for us at school. So that's why, like, yeah. You're definitely the coolest dad at school.Gerard Gousman [00:30:03]:
And I was like, alright.Gerard Gousman [00:30:04]:
I'm gonna remember this. See how long this last. I'm gonna remember this. Bring this back up in a couple of months when you're making fun of me. Because last year in kindergarten, they were all making fun of me for being bald. So to know that I'm one of them thinks that I'm cool. That's not mine. That that I'm taking that weed.Gerard Gousman [00:30:20]:
Yeah. Just knowing that it was cool like that. It seemed that not just because we do and giving them stuff, but it's like that. The other kids notice how happy my kids are and think that it's because of me. That that was a win for me.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:32]:
Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?Gerard Gousman [00:30:36]:
Which one on which day? Open? Fun? Tired? A good cook? Positive. More often than not, I am positive and try to keep them focused on a positive trajectory.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:48]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?Gerard Gousman [00:30:50]:
First off, my kids. They I feel like seeing the growth and seeing the smaller lessons. The things that I don't think that they all the things that you don't think they listened to that they didn't hear. And seeing them engage in the world as positivity and seeing them being kind and open and taking care of others, that generally is recharging to me. Like, alright. I'm doing something. I'm doing something right. How can I build on this? Right? So I have kinda curated a great great base of dads.Gerard Gousman [00:31:22]:
So I'm getting lots of great dad content from different podcasts. The things that a lot of the dads in our network do, the way they interact with their kids, the risk that dads take, putting their selves out there to not only tackle their home and family stuff, but in going out and living their dreams. And guys like Matt Strain, who all the stuff for his family, but also as a triathlete and doing things like that. Like, man, I couldn't imagine running on a walker like myself. He's like, no, man. It's you just gotta get into it and and go and delve in and do it. Like, having dads who push the envelope and really put their stuff out there to be more than just dad. And try to remember that, a, we were once young, vibrant men with dreams and hopes and hobbies and try the the dads who find themselves and get back to that and are but are still fully active in in their debt.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:19]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things for all of us to think about and to consider for our own journeys as dads. As we leave today, as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?Gerard Gousman [00:32:32]:
I'd say, in closing, the it tends to know that becoming a father doesn't have to mark the end of you being a man. You can find those avenues to be able to go out and maintain your happiness, maintain your peace, and be a person. Right? And don't lose yourself in that, that go to your kids to see that you are not just that, but that you are still vibrant and that you love your life and are living a life that makes you happy, not just living a life of service. So I think that would be the that's the biggest thing I would share is, like, to go out and make sure that your kids see you being happy with your life.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:17]:
Well, Gerard, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today. If people people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?Gerard Gousman [00:33:24]:
I am so boring, but join the National At Home Data Network. We are doing membership drive. If they come and join us, Come hang out with us at DadCon in Saint Louis this year. That's in October. And it's the only way you can find me in one of those forums if I'm not somewhere wrangling?Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:40]:
Well, Gerard, just thank you. Thank you so much for being here, and I wish you all the best.Gerard Gousman [00:33:44]:
Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate being on. Will be listening.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:47]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:27]:
Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be. - Näytä enemmän
