Episodit
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My guest today has forged a new path in leadership. A path that wasn't supposed to exist - from psychologist to Director of the Australian Institute of Sport.
For decades, the pathway to senior leadership in sport has been narrow and predictable. Commercial expertise and playing experience were considered non-negotiable. For a female psychologist, these traditional expectations created a double barrier.
Yet Matti Clements' background - building trust quickly, reading dynamics accurately, responding to what each situation demands - has proven to be precisely what modern leadership requires.
Over our conversation, Matti shares her insights and wisdom with characteristic bravery, generosity, self-awareness, and joy. Her understanding that wellbeing isn't separate from performance but essential to it, that belonging creates magic, has helped transform Australian sport.
The 'leader's limp' comes in many forms. For some, it's the visible scars of public failure. For others, like Matti, it's the private struggles of forging new paths and challenging conventional wisdom and, yes, bias and prejudice about what leadership looks like.
"Elite sport is not for everyone," says Matti, but I can say with conviction that it is for her, and what a game she brings.
This is Matti Clements, In the Arena.
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âThe Space Betweenâ
A wonderful kind of wisdom comes from those who understand that performance emerges not from exerting control, but from creating the conditions for performance to flourish.
As I speak with our next guest on âIn the Arenaâ, Shane McCurry, this thought comes to mind.
His understanding of performance and well-being reflects this wisdom: "It's not one or the other, it's one through the other," he observes, emphasising that sustainable excellence can only come through nurturing the human spirit. The Tigers' success demonstrated this perfectly - excellence achieved not at the cost of humanity, but through embracing it.
In a world often focused on quick fixes and immediate results, Shane's serenity comes from understanding that true success - whether it's premiership flags or personal growth - comes through patient, purposeful cultivation of environments where people feel valued and capable of their best work.
His legacy isn't just in the silverware at Richmond, Vixens or Storm, but in the many lives he's touched through his quiet, steadfast and compelling commitment to creating spaces where others can shine.
Play on!
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Puuttuva jakso?
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As a leader, people do not experience our intentions; they experience our behaviours.
How you make them feel, to elevate and inspire, by not only supporting and encouraging them through the demands of their work, but also when trying to stretch and grow them when you glimpse potential and possibilities they are yet to see in themselves.
I call this the Leadership Promise.
Our next guest, âIn the Arenaâ, is legendary AFL Club CEO Brian Cook, the longest-serving club CEO in the game's history, who, for thirty-five years, has delivered on the Leadership Promise.
He is a legacy-driven leader, a good ancestor, a steward of the future, the shoulders on which future generations stand, with the simple expectation of himself:
âDoing well, doing good, doing rightâ.
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âWhat change do you seek to make?â
I came to coaching, having been coached, and the coach was Scott Barrow, my guest on Episode 10 of âIn the Arenaâ.
This is a different conversation. We explore together. It is an open and sometimes challenging discussion, one that I am glad we had, as I always do, and I hope you enjoy it.
Scott Barrow helped me see that leadership (and life) is not a âgot toâ thing but a âget toâ thing.
By embracing this mindset, we are âmaking room for who we might beâ. I thank Pippa Grange and her book âFear Lessâ for this powerful idea.
Once we have made room for who we might be, we can then make space for others to do likewise.
We âget toâ craft ourselves and make our own art, not as an outcome-based pursuit, but by following our own imperfect path, and in doing so, make things better.
We then âget toâ play a role in the lives of others and help them to make themselves better.
There is never one ârightâ answer and no perfect outcome. It will always feel uncertain, which is, most likely, the most important skill we learn.
We get to âbegin againâ.
We all need someone like Scott Barrow in our lives.
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âWere you ready?â they ask.
Youâd think Iâd have a ready answer to a question asked so often. One Iâd prepared earlier.
Maybe it is less question and more response when people learn I was appointed CEO of the Richmond Football Club at age 24.
This thought comes to mind when I am interviewing Collingwood Premiership Captain Nick Maxwell, the perfect guest âIn the Arenaâ in Grand Final week. Since retiring as an AFL player after a remarkable career, Nick has been Leadership Coach and Mentor of Melbourne Storm in the NRL, Greater Western Sydney and Collingwood, and is now CEO of the wonderful Eclat, where designCEO is proudly located.
The first team Nick Maxwell captained was Collingwood, the biggest and most famous in the country. He was never a captain of any of his junior teams because that honour generally went to one of the better players, which, in his own judgement, was never him.
This judgement prevailed when the hundreds of names were called in draft after draft, but never his. He was good enough to be invited for tryouts over pre-season with AFL clubs, and the effort this asked of him, motivated by hope rather than expectation, only to be rejected time and again.
Eventually, Collingwood did take a chance, but the stakes were low, as were the expectations, selection #15 in the Rookie Draft, which effectively made him the 99th player selected that year.
It took him a season before he won a place in the Collingwood senior team, and after only twenty games, he was asked by legendary captain Nathan Buckley to join the player leadership group.
âWere you ready?â I wonder.
I have never really had a good answer, but as years pass, I now understand when taking on anything difficult, be it a personal goal, ambition or desire, or a circumstance or situation you find yourself, my answer is now:
âYou are never readyâ.
Nick Maxwell is now In the Arena.
Play on!
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âThe Character to Competeâ
âYou will behave yourself in, or you will behave yourself out. The choice is yours.â
The role of leaders is to create the conditions that get the best from a group with all of its idiosyncrasies. No team is the same and will always require something different from its leaders.
Does your team understand (and believe in) what they are collectively trying to do, and are they profoundly motivated by this potential and making measurable progress towards its achievement? Do they understand their role, and those of their teammates, in this?
Our next guest on âIn the Arenaâ is Todd Viney, who has seen it all. An outstanding 233 game playing career at the Melbourne Football Club, he was Captain, won Best and Fairests, an All Australian blazer, played in a Grand Final, and was selected in their Team of the Century. In my view, he was the fiercest competitor of his generation. But then again, I am a tad biased, having recruited Todd to the Demons from the Sturt Football Club in South Australia all those years ago after he converted to football at age 18 from playing tennis on the world circuit.
It is quite a story.
As CEO of Melbourne FC twenty-five years later, I recruited Todd Viney back to the club. We needed what Todd brought: the âcharacter to competeâ. Whilst never the plan, he would be required to step up as interim Senior Coach, but the real reason we recruited him was to build the playing list. This he would do, focusing on character and competitiveness as much as talent, and he and his astute recruiters, led by Jason Taylor, would accumulate enough talent to take the Demons to their first Premiership in 57 years in 2021.
My firm belief is that âeffortâ can be coached, but not in the shouting, red-faced, vein-popping, finger-pointing âtry harderâ cliche of coaching, so often the expectation. As with all things leadership, the process is complex and nuanced, and will ultimately be the difference maker.
The prevailing belief, so it seems, is that great leaders can âextractâ performance from a group, and there is some truth in this. We all need a hurry-up from time to time. But this practice must be used sparingly to retain its impact and value, for it will have diminishing returns.
In my experience, great leaders have the capacity to âunlockâ performance from both the individual and the team, often by recognising capability and opportunity they are yet to see in themselves, and then by providing a pathway to achieve it.
Todd Viney is an unlocker.
Play On!
Cam
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As leaders, we are defined by our capacity to create the conditions that enable the group to perform at its best, and there is no better measure than building a culture and a common good so compelling that individuals know, accept and play their roles in a team and all of its expectations.
I sometimes wonder about the application of this high-performance mindset beyond the sporting field. Its importance however was emphasised in my conversation with Dame Alison Rose DBE, our guest on episode #007 of âIn the Arenaâ.
Dame Alison Rose DBE was formerly the NatWest Group's CEO and the first woman appointed to this role. With operating revenue of ÂŁ6 billion, assets of ÂŁ693 billion, 61,500 employees and 19 million customers, she led in one of the highest stakes environments in business.
âIt can be a very individualistic kind of culture if you're not careful. And so, for me, it was always about bringing the right team with the right culture on a common missionâ, says Alison.
âI used to cox rowing teams. You'd have eight highly competitive individuals in a boat. And if you got them all moving in the same way, this boat would sing, and it would fly. It was amazing. And you could tell the difference between when it was working and when it wasn't. But each of those individual people had to be motivated in a different way. And that's true of corporate teams.â
âIt was the thesis I had on the multiple teams I've built throughout my career. Always hire people better than you. A sign of a weak leader is when you push talent down. So, you should never be intimidated by talent. You hire the best people, people who are better than you, because you want collective skills in your team.â
âBe very clear on the culture you want to create. So mutual respect is really important, creating a team that can build trustâ.
Grab a pen and notebook, take the time, this is a rich offering from a very generous leader.
Play on!
Cam
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âLead, or be ledâ, is how Neil Craig, this weekâs guest âIn the Arenaâ, describes it. Choose to lead, or allow the challenge of your circumstance to lead you.
In the podcast, he speaks about the two egos leaders need to succeed in high-stakes environments, and I love this insight.
Neil Craig is a man with more experience in the broadest range of elite sport, and has made growth a practice.
Whether it be as the Senior Coach of the Adelaide Football Club in the AFL after a storied playing career, as Eddie Jonesâ âtruth tellerâ when Eddie was coaching both England and Australia in Rugby World Cups, or working with legendary cycling coach Charlie Walsh in Olympic campaigns, Neil provides the most profound insights that can only come from someone who brings curiosity and courage to every conversation, and the generosity I so value in our friendship.
As a coach of coaches, Neil Craig is the âsecond set of eyesâ to coaches and leaders seeking to perform at the highest level, as another coachâs coach, Cody Royle, wonderfully describes it in his fantastic book of the same name.
As leaders, we all need a âsecond set of eyesâ.
Play on!
Cam.
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âLeadership is an external challenge of communication.â
A future vision requires imagination and someone to spark the flame.
Performance Coach Owen Eastwood describes this as the creation of âforward memoriesâ.
To ignite, motivate and bond individuals into teams through a shared future and journey they will undertake together.
Imagination, in terms of leadership, clearly requires creativity, but mostly, it is an act of courage.
This thought comes to mind when I am speaking with my brother Brendan Schwab and his vision.
Brendan is the most creative and courageous leader I have met, prepared always to hazard himself for the possibility of fulfilling the promise of the sport, impacting the structure and governance of sport, and the rights of athletes who play it.
Having established the Professional Footballers Association (PFA) fresh from studying law and three decades in helping build the Australian and international player association movements, Brendan spent eight years as Executive Director of the World Players Association (World Players), representing 85,000 players through more than 100 player associations in over 60 countries.
In 2018, he was recognised by the players as the fourth 'PFA Champion' and, in 2022, was inducted into the Football Australia Hall of Fame, the first Australian to receive this honour in any sport for their work as a player unionist.
âAustralia is a great sporting nation. We can become a great football nationâ was the vision.
Brendan understood that the vision would not be achieved through the embedded frameworks vested with responsibility for leading soccer in Australia. These structures and the power they afforded to the few had consistently failed the game, with self-interest prevailing against any potential of a greater good.
Brendan drew the rough outline of a different future for the game he loved, something that inspired, knowing that others would need to colour it in.
The âothersâ, in this case, were the players themselves.
âI felt that through the players, we could realise that vision of Australia being a great football nationâ.
The shared love became the greater good the game so badly needed, and a very special group of players bought in with a collective purpose and preparedness to put themselves at risk for the sake of the game they treasured.
So pleased to welcome my brother Brendan Schwab as our guest, âIn the Arenaâ.
I am very proud of him.
Enjoy!
Play on!
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âI am often overwhelmed by how much I donât know.â
Dr Lauren Burns
Making room for the person you might be.
My conversation with the leaders I coach starts with a simple question, one that relates to ambition:
âWhat is it that you seek to do?â
Having got a sense, often unclear and vague, which is perfectly fine and probably expected, as it is their uncertainty that most likely led to this conversation, I will then follow up with:
âWho is it that you seek to be?â
We are making room for who the person might be. I thank Pippa Grange and her book âFear Lessâ for this powerful idea.
This thought came to mind when speaking to Dr Lauren Burns for Episode 004 of âIn the Arenaâ. She epitomises both the idea and its reality.
Continuing our Olympics theme, Lauren was thrown into the public consciousness and spotlight when she won a gold medal in the Sydney 2000 Olympics in the sport of Taekwondo. As remarkable as her achievement was, the richness of her story is, in part, how unexpected it was given her upbringing as someone with no competitive sporting influences. As the daughter of a King of Pop father and ballerina mother, Laurenâs introduction to martial arts came via her brotherâs obsession with the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and from this unlikely place, greatness followed.
The many layers of her story further unfurl as she sought to make sense and meaning from the achievements of the great athletes with whom she shared her journey to excellence. Australian sporting legends such as Cathy Freeman, Ian Thorpe, and Layne Beachley. Her work and insights are now a PhD and the wisdom is powerful and accessible to all of us as we become both coaches and players of our own lives.
Leadership is not only something to do; it is something to be, but you must do the doing to be the being.
As a leader and coach, Lauren believes there is never one ârightâ answer and no perfect outcome. Life will always feel uncertain, which is most likely the most important skill you will learn.
So pleased to welcome Dr Lauren Burns as our guest, âIn the Arenaâ.
Enjoy!
Play on!
Cam
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âTo do extraordinary things, it takes a different type of person.â
This week, we welcome Australian sporting icon John Bertrand AO to âIn the Arenaâ, a leader who exemplifies this mindset.
With the Olympics currently dominating the sporting landscape as only the Olympics can, John brings his perspective as both a competitor (two-time Olympian and Sailing Bronze Medalist) and the man who was given the job of righting Australian Swimming when it lost its way a decade ago, with our team achieving a record medal haul in Tokyo, and off to an exciting start in Paris.
But he is best known as the Australian who skippered Australia II to victory to win the 1983 Americaâs Cup, breaking 132 years of American domination and, in the process, breaking the longest-running record in the history of modern sport.
Ask any Australian where they were that day, and they will remember.
The Confederation of Australian Sport voted the Australia II crewâs victory the greatest team performance in 200 years of Australian sport. In 2013, John was inducted as a Legend in the Sport Australia Hall of Fame, the most prestigious sporting honour that can be bestowed on an Australian sportsperson.
He is also the most curious person that I have met.
John is that rare kind of leader who can look at the future of their sport and see radically different things from most. He is far more interested in what we can become than who we think we are already.
John also speaks openly about how sport has shaped him. How thankful he is for the lessons the experiences gifted him, always prepared to put himself in deep and diverse conversation to satisfy his relentless curiosity, being at ease with not-knowing.
He is all these things and more in this conversation, and I am honoured to have him as our guest. I doubt whether we will have a guest who represents the idea of âIn the Arenaâ more than John Bertrand.
Enjoy!
Play on!
Cam
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âMum, do men play footy?â
Having spent a lifetime in the game, I learned that some people are into growing, but most people are only interested in arrival.
The âarrivalâ people create all the commotion that distracts from the critical work of the âgrowersâ, who are playing a much bigger and far more important game, energised by all its possibilities, and significantly, not overwhelmed by its ambiguity.
Our next guest on the âIn the Arenaâ Podcast, Debbie Lee, is a âgrowerâ in the truest sense.
In my experience, the âgrowersâ are also exceedingly generous, as Debbie is in this Podcast. It would be easy for her to gloat about her achievements, but that is not who she is, even though she could be forgiven for doing so as the first (and only) female footballer to be inducted into the AFL Hall of Fame.
Instead, she speaks openly about how the game has shaped her. How thankful she is for the lessons the game gifted her, always prepared to put herself in deep and diverse conversation to grow herself, the game and all that it is, and all that it can be.
âWho you are is what you settle for, you know?â said singer Janis Joplin.
Debbie was not prepared to settle for how she personally experienced our game of Australian football. She had the courage and insight to ask better questions of the sport, and would become the evangelist womenâs football needed and changed the game forever.
Debbie did not have a platform or a profile and also suffered from the personal bias directed at women footballers of her era. Every effort to grow the game was met with resistance and prejudice.
But still, she had the fortitude and will to look at the future of the game and see something radically different.
She was not prepared to settle for the prevailing view that only young men could envision a career playing the sport at the highest level or, for that matter, coaching, administering, or commentating on the game they love.
She wasnât prepared to settle for the prevailing view that people would not watch womenâs football. Then, 52,000 people turned up to watch an AFLW Grand Final at Adelaide Oval, and the game was never the same.
Our game is at its best when it leads, when it has the collective courage to forge a new way, and at its worst when it lags, as it did when it betrayed Adam Goodes.
Until recent times, the language and sounds of the game were exclusively male, with homophobia, sexism and bigotry not only tolerated but an expectation, a way of fitting in and belonging, connecting via the worst parts of us.
It was the football world I grew up in and desperately wanted to be a part of, never challenging and now sometimes wondering why I didnât. But I know the answer. It was âthe wayâ, and it would take individuals who could see another way, stronger and more visionary, courageous and willing than I was. It needed to be personal to start the conversation, a response to the pain of their lived experience. People like Debbie Lee, and with a force they created, a catalyst for change, and change the game did.
I have learned that discomfort marks the place where the old way meets the new way. It is a place of vulnerability and courage. If it doesnât challenge you, it will not change you, and whenever in doubt, back the new way and all its uncertainty.
In terms of womenâs football, the âold wayâ was meeting the ânew wayâ, and Debbie Lee was the catalyst.
We worked together at the Melbourne Football Club and, with some wonderful football people, set about creating the vision the womenâs game needed. An Exhibition Game in 2013, became the AFLW by 2017, an extraordinary achievement by any measure.
Her story is remarkable, and she tells it wonderfully.
Her legacy is profound.
It will never be beaten.
Play On!
Cam
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Just remember, you asked for it!
Moments of uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity are the uncomfortable leadership moments, and what you signed up for.
The discomfort of not knowing.
These are the times when leadership is most needed, your leadership, and in fact, if not for these conditions, you may well be doing someone elseâs job for them.
Learning how to be comfortable with the discomfort of the role.
âYou canât stop the waves, but you can learn how to surfâ, said Jon Kabat Zinn, perhaps my favourite ever leadership quote.
Our first guest âIn the Arenaâ is Michael Voss, three-time AFL Premiership Captain of the Brisbane Lions and the Senior Coach of the historic Carlton Football Club.
As a member of the Australian Football Hall of Fame, Michael Voss would feature near the top of most football punditsâ âgreatest everâ lists, elevated not only for his sublime talent but also for his capacity to exert his will on the game and the teams he led.
A career in coaching beckoned, and so it was, stepping up as Senior Coach of his beloved Brisbane Lions, forgoing the assistant coaching âapprenticeshipâ that has become the practice over the past few decades.
But it did not play to script, and five years later, he was dismissed from the role.
But this setback was merely a lesson and one of the many for a leader who is determined to be the best he can be for the people he gets to influence on their own journeys. It was seven years as an Assistant Coach at the Port Adelaide Football Club before he would get the opportunity to once again be âIn the Arenaâ as the Senior Coach of Carlton, now into his third season, taking them deep into the 2023 final series (after a rocky period of six straight losses) in just his second season, their first finals appearance in a decade.
One thing that separates the most impressive and influential leaders I have worked with is their willingness to embrace reflective learning and generously share their lessons and insights.
This makes Michael Voss a great football coach, leader, and super podcast guest, hence our decision to lead off the first episode of âIn the Arenaâ.
The conversation also benefits from our personal relationship. A couple of years ago, Michael sought support in his role, and I have been his coach, focusing on leadership, the mechanics and dynamics of a layered and complex role, all playing out in the public eye as coach of one of the biggest clubs in the country.
I must say, he is highly coachable, as you will experience listening to this podcast.
There are many layers to this conversation. Yes, the insights are invaluable, but you will also sense the principles he leads, be it his generosity, humility, and a sense of purpose, while acknowledging his roleâs impact on the players he coaches and the club he leads.
He genuinely embraces his old coach Leigh Matthewsâ mantra of:
- Know your role
- Accept your role
- Play your role
He will have you reaching for a pen and paper, jotting down the ideas and thoughts of a leader and teacher who has âdone the workâ, and challenging you to do likewise.
Episode #001 is a leadership masterclass, and we are so grateful to have the opportunity to share it with you.
Youâre going to love this.
Play On!
Cameron Schwab
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In the Arena with Cameron Schwab. Stay tuned for more
