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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Patti Goforth, principal at Robinson Elementary. Goforth shares insights from her journey as an educator, including the importance of building connections with students and fostering a culture where every child is seen and valued. The conversation also highlights the impact of collaboration through improvement communities and the transformative work being done to enhance student engagement and well-being.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Mentioned:Ron Clark Academy Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipEdD in K-12 Educational LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcslJoin us at Catalyze (formerly Just Schools Academy) July 28-30 at the Hurd Welcome Center at Baylor University, where your team of teachers and administrators will have the opportunity to address a problem of practice related to your campus improvement plan focusing on feedback, engagement, or well-being. This is not a conference. This is a retreat that offers your team a collaborative environment where you’ll work alongside a network of educators and the BCSL team to develop a plan of action using our improvement science tools. With ongoing monthly support from our team, you will be equipped with strategies to catalyze lasting improvement in what we like to call “catalytic improvement communities” that will benefit your school. You will improve an aspect of your campus improvement plan, develop leaders, and enhance collective teacher efficacy. Gather a team of 2-10 teachers and administrators because we do this work best together.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Dustin Benac, co-founder of Baylor's Program for the Future Church. They discuss the connection between schools, churches, and communities in fostering flourishing environments. Benac shares insights on leadership that moves at the speed of trust, the power of belonging, and the importance of taking strategic risks. The conversation also highlights how collaboration and shared language can drive meaningful connections and create spaces where individuals and institutions thrive together.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Books Mentioned:Adaptive Church by Dustin D. BenacBelonging: The Science of Creating Connection and Bridging Divides by Geoffrey L. CohenMan's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. FranklConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipEdD in K-12 Educational LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Transcript:
Jon:
Welcome back to the Just Schools podcast. Today we are here with Dustin Benac. Excited to have him here. He's a little different kind of guest than we usually have, so we're going to start with Dustin telling us a little bit what he does here at Baylor, and then we'll get into how it connects to what we do as educators. Dustin, welcome in.
Dustin Benac:
Thanks Jon. Thrilled to be here. Love what you guys do in the School of Ed.
Jon:
Can you tell us a little bit about what you do here at Baylor? We overlap some because we're interested in leadership, we're interested in education and institutions, but can you talk a little bit about what you do here?
Dustin Benac:
Absolutely. I am the director and co-founder of the Program for the Future Church. We are a research, resource and relationship hub that's devoted to engaging the complex and emerging challenges between current and emerging Christian leaders. We do that through curriculum. We do that through convenings or gatherings, and we do that through contextual research. And one of the things that we're seeing is that even as the church and our communities are changing in incredible and dramatic ways, there is a remarkable future and we're committed to supporting that and pursuing that together.
Jon:
Love that. My question for you, obviously we care deeply about the church. That's one of the primary institutions that really supports what goes on in our country and around the world. And we have the global flourishing study that's a partnership of Harvard and Baylor, looking at what flourishing looks like, and certainly churches and faith are a big part of that, but another big part of it is schools. Where do you see K-12 schools fitting into the work that you're doing?
Dustin Benac:
I think they are an essential aspect of the flourishing of our communities and the flourishing of churches. Because one of the things we see is that the faith formation of people who inhabit churches, particularly inhabit churches over their life course emerges in those first 10 to 12 years. That certainly happens in families, but that also happens in spaces well beyond families. Sunday school classrooms, camps, schools, after school programs, baseball fields, athletic fields, gyms, art rooms, all of those are spaces where people are being formed. And a flourishing church, particularly a flourishing future church requires flourishing generations. And then secondly, it requires connections across different communities of faith. We think about our work happening at the level of the system or the ecology where we think communities need thriving congregations. They also need thriving schools, they need thriving nonprofit sectors, they need thriving entrepreneurs and the health of those realities, those sectors will only contribute to the thriving of the local church.
Jon:
A lot of that focus on community because we don't do any of these things in isolation. And so as educators, we have this great role of walking alongside people as they become more of who they're created to be as we become more of who we're created to be in the work that we do as we are formed. My question for you especially is your vantage point largely focused on the church, but also then looking at the ecology, as you use your term, which I love that term as well. What does a healthy school look like in your opinion, either currently or in the future, or maybe those are the same thing, but what's it look like to you?
Dustin Benac:
I think there are several markers of a healthy school. One, I think healthy schools require healthy leadership, and that's one of the reasons I appreciate the work you and your colleagues do is you all are equipping, resourcing and engaging healthy leaders and supporting healthy leaders across the country. That's the first thing. I think the second thing is a connection to and commitment to place. One of the things I love about education is it's one of the increasingly few institutions that still have a geographic designation. We have ISDs that are connected to particular places. And schools are places that bring people from their surrounding community to a shared gathering. Third, I think healthy schools require a healthy balance of diversity and similarity.
You have to have something that you have in common, which I think is the education of our children. And you also have to have environments where people gather around and from the various differences and particularities that they bring to these spaces. Third, you've got to have matters of trust, justice, equity. Schools are only as strong as the virtues that carry them, and our leaders are only as strong as the virtues that they possess, so you've got to have schools that are marked by integrity. And fifth and finally, I think a healthy school requires a hopeful vision for the future. We can't have a hopeful vision for our children if the leaders and the communities don't have a hopeful vision for the future.
Jon:
The country right now is somewhat polarized as we're in an election year and you hear a lot of things about separation of church and state. And a lot of times that comes into play in schools where what's allowed, what isn't allowed? In Oklahoma right now, there's mandated Bible teaching going on in public schools with a hope that that will lead to better virtue development. And that's getting a lot of push back and possibly not really being implemented because that's not been traditionally what's gone on in public schools in Oklahoma at least over the last several decades.
I'm curious to have you talk a little bit about the way you think churches and schools can work together effectively, because we also have the model of churches coming in and reading with kids and providing tutoring with kids and afterschool programs and this kind of ecology that we're all in this together and that both schools and churches serve the community. Do you have any sense of what that might look like? Not in the church state, separation wars that are out there, but in we're all part of a community, leadership as service. How do we lead in a way that serves each member of the community well?
Dustin Benac:
Yep. I love that question. I think that's part of one of the things that gets me really hopeful about the future schools and the future of churches because I think there's opportunities for real partnership here. Just a quick anecdote, I found my way into this work after doing several years of research in the Pacific Northwest. And the Pacific Northwest is a context where there's a marginal position for religious organizations. They're on the edges of society, but there's also a real history of religious entrepreneurship, that people of faith are doing new things.
Entrepreneurship is the water they swim in. And one of the things I saw there is that people of faith and churches in the Pacific Northwest, they found a way to exist on the margins of society in ways that are not anxious. They're not trying to reclaim power, they're just trying to be faithfully present. And I think that's the first step to find this meaningful partnership, is churches and people of faith can pursue meaningful partnerships with schools, public or private, not trying to control the content or control the outcome or set the table, but simply show up and be a good partner and be present. Second, that takes a lot of time.
Jon:
You're right.
Dustin Benac:
You can't just parachute in a community and expect change to happen. You've got to keep showing up. Go to the football games, go to the band concerts, show up, show up over and over and over again. And when you do that, you begin to, one, see the needs of the community and they might be different than what you think. And then secondly, you begin to earn trust. The third thing I say is be prepared to be surprised by the encounter. When I've shown up in spaces, when I've tried to be relationally, faithfully present, I go in expecting knowingly or unknowingly something from that connection. And I'm always surprised. And as a person of faith, I like to think that surprise is part of the gift of God.
Jon:
That's beautifully put. I would say I think it overlaps with our view of leadership in general, but I would go all the way back to teaching middle school students. You can't just hit middle school kids over the head with truth if you don't do it with love because they're not listening until they know that you love them and you show them that you love them by spending time with them when you're not contractually obligated to spend that time with them. And so it is that showing up. And I think that's true with adults that we lead and we work with the educators we serve all over the world. It does coming alongside listening first, being surprised by what we might learn, not coming in with solutions for people. We don't know the context.
We come in with processes. We come in with ideas for improvement. We come in with networks of people that we connect. That's Eric Ellison's main job at the Center of School Leadership. He does that even on Baylor's campus for us. And so how do we do that better? Because ultimately in the time we're in now, I don't think anybody can be that superhero solo leader. We write a lot about collective leadership at the center and what that looks like to do the work that moves towards shared goals. You do a lot of work on collaborative leadership. What kind of leadership do you see working at Baylor in churches in the ecologies? What kind of leadership do you see working? What are some attributes of that that you're encouraged by as we move forward?
Dustin Benac:
There's several different attributes. One is it's leadership that moves at the speed of trust. Collective collaborative leadership is leadership that it can't be engineered, it can't be manufactured. It takes time and it moves at the speed of trust. The second thing is this type of leadership is leadership that's carried by shared language. And I think that's one of the values of a place like Baylor or a place like the Center for School Leadership is I think one of the things you all offer are some shared language. And that allows people to partner around shared work by using the shared language because we can't assume that we mean the same thing when we talk about community or education or formation or faith.
You have to have shared language because that's the point of contact where the shared work begins. The third thing that I think is required is an ability to recognize and celebrate a diversity of leadership expressions. Leadership, particularly collaborative leadership, is carried by teams. In order to have a strong team, you need to have people who lead in different ways. In my book, Adaptive Church, I talk about this across six different modes of leading, leading as the caretaker, leading as the catalyst, leading as the connector convener, leading as the surveyor, leading as the champion, leading as the guide. An effective collaboration requires people and teams who have the diversity, the dexterity, and the variety of gifts to lead in different ways in order to respond the needs of their community.
Jon:
You talk about diversity, dexterity, and variety, and a lot of people will hear that, and say it sounds messy.
Dustin Benac:
It is.
Jon:
And my argument is leadership's always going to be messy. It's whether it's going to be messy on the front end or the back end. I'd much rather it be hashed out with diverse thinkers that bring this variety to what we do so that we better represent the communities we serve. If you're thinking in ecologies, you certainly can't, as a single person know what's going to work best for everyone in that ecosystem. That is just not going to be possible. But it takes time, which you already mentioned about relationships, but it also takes time to process things. But then at the back end, you have something that actually might work as opposed to you implementing something which churches do this all the time, "Oh, we got to grow attendance, we got to grow the budget. We got to do..." And so it just becomes this hamster wheel we jump on and then we're spinning off crazy. And in churches, you are burning human beings who get run over by that hamster wheel.
Dustin Benac:
That's exactly right. And I think it's important to make a difference between the messiness of shared and collaborative leadership and sloppiness because-
Jon:
Yes. That's a good point.
Dustin Benac:
... we don't have an excuse for being sloppy. The responsibility of leadership requires that we do it as well as we can. And part of not being sloppy is having shared language, knowing your lane, and also having good and effective strategy. It's going to be messy, it's going to be improvisational. It's not going to turn out like you thought or hoped it would, but you can be purposeful, you can be intentional, you can be strategic, you can be patient. And when those ingredients are there, the outcome is oftentimes far better than we could ever hope or imagine.
Jon:
The sloppy piece is such a great point. I think in schools, we have oversold the idea of failing forward. We've taken this Silicon Valley idea that fail fast, fail forward. No one wants to fail. And so you don't take haphazard risks, that's sloppy. You take strategic risks and Chip and Dan Heath write that the promise of risk taking is not, I don't have the exact quote, but the promise of risk taking is not success. It's learning. All right. If success were always promised for taking risks, it wouldn't be a risk. And so ultimately, how do we take the right risks? How do we take them with the right people?
How do we take them in the way that we're actually going to learn from them and then revise and improve? I've certainly taken many risks in my career where I'm like, "I'm never doing that again." That was just a flat mistake. But most of the time, whatever it is, I figure out ways that we can improve and do better the next time. And then that's where leadership is fun because you're constantly iterating and you know don't have to have it right the first time ever because we probably aren't. But it's like all we got to do is get better. And so I've quit talking about solutions because solutions sound too neat, sound too prepackaged. It's not about solutions. It's about improving, so if you are leading a dumpster fire, just put the fire out. You don't have to build the Taj Mahal yet. Get the dumpster fire out first.
Dustin Benac:
I love it.
Jon:
As we think about that, what's your greatest fear as you look ahead to churches and schools? What's the greatest fear you have right now? I know there are many fears out there. What would you say is the thing that keeps you up at night about churches and schools?
Dustin Benac:
You actually teed this up so well, Jon, because I think my greatest fear is that we wouldn't take the risk. I think we are in a moment of significant and dramatic change. The world is changing, the church is changing, how we gather is changing, what education looks like and feels like is changing. And that can be a moment of real anxiety and uncertainty. It can also be a real moment of opportunity. And my hope is that in this moment of incredible change, we will do the thoughtful, the strategic, maybe even the prayerful work of considering what are the risks that are ours to take and take them with other people. We don't have to take these risks alone, but I do think we are in a unique moment of time where there's things that we can do together that are going to build the structures, the schools, the churches that our children inhabit for a generation. And if we don't do that, I think we've missed an opportunity.
Jon:
That's well said. Before we jumped on, you mentioned a couple of books that you were reading, which I think tie into this fear and also to the hope that we can have. Would you mind sharing a couple of books? I always like for our listeners to get a couple of recommendations that might be useful that may or may not be part of a typical educator's reading list. But do you have a couple for us?
Dustin Benac:
Yeah. One of the very best books I read in the last year is a book by a Stanford psychologist, Geoffrey Cohen's Belonging, a brilliant book about the structure of connection and how to understand the need for belonging and also the strategies that can help us build cultures of belonging. Brilliant work, data-driven, translatable across cultures and across contexts, so, that's the first one. The second one is a book by Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning that is about his experience surviving a concentration camp and also his theory of purpose that emerged out of his work there as a clinical psychologist. And one of the things Frankl says is that those who survived, survived because they found purpose, even purpose in suffering. And it's precisely this purpose that gave them meaning and ultimately gave them a future hope that they could imagine. Even if the circumstances were such, that it was very unlikely that they would live to see that future hope, the purpose carried them forward and gave them a reason to live.
Jon:
Well, I like the way those two books fit together in that if we're going to belong, we have to have a purpose.
Dustin Benac:
Yes.
Jon:
And that's part of what we do. And when we have a purpose, we are willing to struggle well with each other. And ultimately that's where joy is found. It's not the freedom from the struggle, it's the fuel to struggle well. And our joy comes from something deeper than our circumstances because that's where happiness lies and certainly Viktor Frankl is not talking about happiness. He's talking about where purpose can lead to joy because there's a life of meaning. And we don't have wellbeing if we don't have a purpose. And so I think the belonging piece doesn't happen unless we can do that with others because we serve a relational God and we reflect that in the ways that we interact with each other. We don't thrive by ourselves. That just doesn't happen. Love those two books. You shared your greatest fear, not taking risks, so what's your greatest hope as you look ahead for schools and churches?
Dustin Benac:
That new connections will form? I think the future of schools, the future of the church is carried by the work we do together. And one of the things that gives me great hope is that in a time of isolation, in a time of polarization, in a time where so many people do not feel like they belong, new connections are being formed every day. And that gives me great hope. That gives me great hope for the work that we do in the program where people come through our events, come through our courses, come through our programs, and they come out saying, "I'm more connected with other people." That's my hope about Baylor, is we have incredible students who come through our classes, and they certainly leave with a degree, but they also leave with a lot of connections. And that's my hope for churches, is that churches are finding a way to be faithfully present right where they are that is simply holding out the space for connection. Connection with others, connections with themselves, and connection with God.
Jon:
And that's why it's such a blessing to be part of Christian Research One University where we can convene these things, create those connections across communities, study them, and try to amplify the good work that schools and churches are doing, because there's a lot of great work going on out there. We just don't always hear about it. And so how do we accelerate that? Well, let's bring people together. Let's do it together in a way that creates connection and joy and then amplify it.
Dustin Benac:
That's right.
Jon:
And so that's the blessing. Well, thank you for all you do at Baylor through this, the program for the Future Church. Thanks for being with us and always love allies like you at Baylor, so thanks for taking the time.
Dustin Benac:
Thanks, Jon. Thrilled to be here.
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Puuttuva jakso?
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Lindsay Jones from CAST to discuss her work in inclusive education and Universal Design for Learning (UDL). Jones shares insights into how UDL transforms learning environments by focusing on student agency and creating flexible, supportive spaces for all learners. The conversation covers practical examples of UDL in action. Jones also reflects on the opportunities and challenges for UDL globally and her optimism about its impact on education.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Books Mentioned:Radical Inclusion by Ori BrafmanConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipEdD in K-12 Educational LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Transcript:
Jon Eckert:
All right, today we're here with Lindsay Jones from CAST. She is one of the more interesting people I've met in the last couple of years, and so I wanted to just jump in. First of all, welcome, Lindsay.
Lindsay Jones:
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Jon Eckert:
I want to start with a new question that I've never asked anybody, and I'm going to kick it off here, but I always think it's interesting since most of our listeners are educators to ground who you are in your first, last, best, worst experience in schools. So you spend a lot of time in schools and supporting schools. So what's your first memory, your last memory, your best memory, and your worst memory. So we'll do that by way of introduction. Take it away, Lindsay.
Lindsay Jones:
Wow. Okay, so you may have to help remind me of that order.
Jon Eckert:
Sure.
Lindsay Jones:
My first memory and a lot of my memories are going to center around my mom, who was an educator, a special educator for many, many years, special ed director. My first memory was when she came in and started... I was in a public school in Avon Lake, Ohio. I was in second grade, and she came in and started helping and teaching some extra content. And so it was a huge memory for me because she was there and it felt so special and I felt very special that my mom was there and I felt like I got a little viewpoint in the behind the scenes and that was exciting. So that was first.
Best was eighth grade. I had a phenomenal history teacher, and I can still remember the project that I wrote, and it makes me now think of Universal Design for Learning. I had a lot of choice in the project. I wrote it on the history of vigilantism in the United States. It was part of American history and going west, and it's amazing to me. I remember so vividly. So many parts of that I don't remember, but I remember the paper. I remember some of the materials that we did and seeing a play about it and all of the ways that that teacher really brought it to life. So let's see, first, best, worst, and that, and last?
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Yeah, that's what you have left, worst and last.
Lindsay Jones:
Okay. Worst, I'll say two things. Being bored a lot. Not engaging, that's worst. Just feeling like I'm just going through the paces. But a really formative worst one for me is my mother, when I was in third through fifth grade, also living in Ohio, she was teaching in Lakewood, Ohio, and I was going to school near there and she was teaching in a self-contained preschool special ed program in a public school. And I can remember I would go there before school every day after school every day. I met all the students in that room. I was probably in third grade when I started going there. There were different multi-ages. And I then went, I had a day off at my school and like many other kids, my mom let me hang around her school that day. And with a teacher in regular ed at that time, general ed. This would've been a long time ago, the early '80s.
And I can remember hanging around in a regular ed third grade classroom for the whole day and never seeing my mom's students, never seeing my mom, never seeing anyone with a disability. And that really struck me. Where are they? They are not here. They were not a part of that community. And I think that was a really formative experience that drives why I do the work I do today focused on inclusion. So that's probably also my worst because it wasn't ideal. It wasn't the way it should be, but it really, really formed me. So in some ways it's my best in many ways too, I guess. And then my last is law school. I went to law school. That was my last.
Jon Eckert:
That puts an imprint on you.
Lindsay Jones:
I practiced as an attorney for many years in Arizona. And my last schooling experience personally was law school. And it was a shock. It was like being dropped into an ice bath. But I loved it. Actually, I really learned a lot. It was such an interesting... The Socratic method itself has interesting parts to it. It can be really very engaging, but it's a challenging setting.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Well, and I think one of the things that law school does that I've always admired is it teaches you how to think. And so I think there's some value in that. Now, the process of learning that can be pretty painful and you can get some tough professors who are maybe not that skilled at how to teach or how to make it accessible, but if you navigate through it, you come out with a set of skills that are pretty valuable. So it's pretty great. Well, hey, I actually enjoyed that because there's a lot of jumping off points there for what you do now. So you've already hit on what is normally my next question is what brought you to this work? So talk a little bit about what you do now, why you got out of the legal profession and into the work you're doing now based on some of the things that you experienced with your mother in schools and some of the other pieces that you've already discussed.
Lindsay Jones:
Yeah, so my mom, who, as I said, special ed teacher, local special ed director, all the things, special ed member of the Council for Exceptional Children, spoke, ended up working as a independent consultant, expert on ADHD, writing books and said to me always, "Don't become a teacher. Don't do it. Be a lawyer." And thinking now back on that, I think that was largely because she was a real activist as a person for inclusion, a real activist for social justice around disability and felt powerless sometimes with the limitations put on her position. So loved educators, was a model in my mind, a wonderful educator, a teacher's teacher, but just really felt like there were limits and she wanted to make a bigger difference.
So I actually ultimately, did go to law school and thought, "I'm never getting into education. I'm staying out of the family business. What in the world?" But when I got my first job at a law firm, I happened to join a firm in Phoenix, Arizona that represented most of the school districts in the state. And I had sat my uncle and my aunt, also special educators, lifelong. I'd sat at so many tables listening to like IEP, behavior implementation plan, all of it, that I knew it. I knew those things. I don't even know how I knew those things. I never took an education law class. So I started though, being drawn into that work. I represented public school districts and I focused a lot on special education matters. I took lots of cases all the way, and I've been in three day IEP meetings and that was a challenging... I did the first 504 due process hearing in the state of Arizona because they just didn't really have those before the 2000s.
And then I saw lots of the same problems over and over, and I thought, "Boy, I'd really like to work on these from a national level." And that drew me to go to work for the Council for Exceptional Children in DC where I live now. That is the organization of the professional learning association of special educators across the US. And that was a phenomenal experience. I worked there for four years. And then I decided to move to the National Center for Learning Disabilities, also working with parents and families, again, from a national role on legislation.
And then I was so excited to be able to join CAST where I work today, a nonprofit organization that invented something called Universal Design for Learning, UDL. And it's a way for me to influence policy and try to make a difference in the way our laws are created, but also to, in a more real, tangible way, we work with educators in classrooms around the world. And we work with authors to push the field forward, and we have research that we're conducting. So it's just a deeper way to be able to work on inclusion and those issues.
Jon Eckert:
Such a great introduction. And I do have to say the three-day IEP meeting, I don't think I've been in a three-hour one. And those are painful. So the individualized education plan, great idea, but when they get down on paper or try to get them to paper, it's tough. I also have to say that what you do with UDL is so transformative all around the world. And so I know we were at an international convening where they were discussing the 250 million kids worldwide that don't have access to schools and how many people knew UDL and knew you in so many different countries. It was pretty powerful to see the people coming up and talking to you about how that we do this well because at the Center, we're all about supporting education leaders so that they can serve each student well. And that feels like the whole mission of UDL.
How do we reach each kid? Not all kids, but each kid, because each kid comes to the learning differently. And that's the beauty of education I've been in for 29 years. I did not avoid education, but I didn't have a parent who was an educator. So who knows what would've happened if that would've been the... And I would say our work is infinitely interesting and always challenging because the only thing we know when we're standing in a classroom with a bunch of students is we're the only one that learns the way we do. And so that's where UDL is so powerful because it gives you principles for how to think through it. And you're vigilante project that you did in eighth grade had so many of the hallmarks of UDL. So I'd love for you to just dig a little bit deeper into some of the opportunities and challenges you see right now for UDL around the world and maybe particularly the United States as well, if you want to dive down there.
Lindsay Jones:
Sure. I would say around the world, the number one challenge really is some basic access, as you would know better than I do, Jon, but in terms of at the core of UDL is assistive technology that's started by nine Harvard neuroscientists, working with nine students with really significant cognitive disabilities and saying, "Maybe tech and being flexible... Maybe the person isn't broken, maybe it's the system." And in fact, they proved that's right. And now that system and some of the drawbacks of the system for people in different places around the world is probably the biggest challenge. The biggest opportunity though, I think especially in the United States right now is EdTech is throughout schools. It's overwhelming. It's almost too much in schools, but it does that same principle of it gives us more of an inherent understanding that we all use it differently. The way I use my iPhone or whatever my device is, is probably different than yours, and you don't judge me for that. I don't judge you. I don't even know how... And so that is a freeing thing that I think is a big opportunity.
And UDL, it's a design thinking framework. It just helps you think, "How can I find barriers to leaning that I don't see?" And I think that tech is a way to help us make environments more flexible. It's not the only way, we don't need it, but it can make that environment more flexible and it can also reduce the stigma of difference. The stigma that I saw when I felt my mother's class was down a dark hall. They weren't included. They were very separate. Tech, we're all using it. And that's, I think, a great opportunity for us to think about universal design for learning and how we can create those environments that are flexible and dynamic and individualized.
Jon Eckert:
And I love the connection to design thinking because at the end of the day, that's using technology to humanize interaction. It's not replacing the human, it's accentuating the human connection we can make through it as we design solutions that move us all further forward. And that has to be individualized. So I still think, and I think this is potentially something that's really prevalent in US schools, people believe that struggle is a sign of weakness where in fact, struggle is part of learning. And learning is productive struggle. So everybody needs different tools to help them struggle well. And so I think particularly coming out of Covid, we've had this shift in that well-being is freedom from struggle, and that can't be the case. And what I love about UDL is it gets kids into that zone of proximal development where, here's what I can do on my own, here's what I can do with some assistive technology, here's what I can do with some choice, here's what I can do with a more advanced peer.
There's all these places where there are these supports that come in that humanize the interaction. So that's where I'm most hopeful about UDL and where I see things going because we have more tools than we ever have. Now, if we just use those tools in this cast a wide net, throw at every kid, hopefully we catch every kid and you know kids are going to fall through the net, that's a problem. But where we have educators who are deployed with these tools to meet kids' needs, who are then allowing kids' choice, allowing kids opportunities to collaborate and making sure each kid is able to contribute, that's where I see things being hopeful. Do you have any of those kinds of stories where you're like, "Yeah, here I've seen UDL really make a difference in the lives of kids." Is there anything that jumps to mind?
Lindsay Jones:
Absolutely, and that's exactly what it is. So we just updated our guideline. Guidelines are a tool we use to help people implement it. There's just things to prompt your thinking about as design your environment. We updated them and the focus now is agency, learner agency. It's always been about what you just described. We know the kids are leaving school. And right now today, you and I probably are having to learn more about artificial intelligence than we ever... Maybe you knew a lot. I know nothing. So now I'm completely learning about it and I'm relying on all the ways I learned how to learn. And that is what we're trying to make sure those kids are learning so that when they leave, they know, "Oh, I feel confident. I may not know it. I'm going to struggle, but here's what I can do to learn it." That's the goal. That's learner agency.
And so what I would say, there's a lot of great examples of that around, but one of the ones that I think really just resonates for me, there's a school here in the District of Columbia that we've been working with. They have a model UDL demonstration classroom, which they're showing to others, and they're bringing UDL throughout that school and hopefully through the other schools in the District of Columbia schools. And when you go in, there's a part of you, I think... I'm a parent. I'm not a teacher, as you know, I'm a parent though. And there's a part of me that I will say, I was like, "We're just going to let fifth graders make choices about what they want? I've had a fifth grader. That seems scary to me. I'm not sure. What is this going to look like?"
And I went into this fifth grade classroom, and it is so interesting to see what and how that's really intentionally designed by those educators. Several different areas are happening in the room. And one of the things that stood out to me, Jon, is those kids in that room know if they're asked a question... I watched an interaction between a teacher and a student where the teacher asked the student a question about the material, and the student kept trying to answer it and was struggling. The teacher was not giving the answer. And then finally the student said, "Oh, I'm going to go to my resources. I'm going to go get... And they walked over to several different resources they had available, got the answer, came back so proud, so confident.
And it was so painful for those moments of watching that child struggle, that teachers maybe call it "wait time." It is painful to sit there and watch that. You want to just say, "Lincoln, it's Abe Lincoln." But my God, when I saw that student be really actualized, find something, come back. And that is a very micro way of talking about what was a really complex interaction with some really skilled educators and just incredible kids, but it wasn't out of the norm, and it did more than one thing at once. It taught the student the answer, and it made that student engaged in a way of like, "I am proud. I did this." And that's good. We need that because it won't always be easy, so you got to draw on something. So yeah, I think there's a lot of examples like that that are exciting and empowering.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, that's great. I love that example. And I love the idea that it's in a model classroom because I think for educators, they need to be able to see it happening. And we need educators who are doing this well to be able to spread their expertise. And so in our research, we find one of the most powerful predictors of how a school will improve is whether or not a lot of peer observation's happening. It's not evaluation or judgment, but it's learning from other educators who are doing this hard work and letting kids, requiring kids, giving them the opportunity to struggle because there's so much more joy in finding out it's Abraham Lincoln when you go with your own agency and find those in the sources than having someone else just tell you the answer. And that just breeds learned helplessness. Just like, "Hey, somebody's going to tell me anyway, so why would I have any agency in the first place?"
The other thing I wanted to say, I teach a class in a half an hour. And so anytime I go in, even to my undergrad or grad classes that I'm teaching, when I am the least well prepared, I lecture. When I am the best prepared, it's this interactive engagement where student agency is part of it, and there's meaning. And I always pull in student responses from the night before. I always read the responses that come in by 10:00 PM and I put those in and I let that direct the class. But that takes a lot of time. And so it's just, if somehow that time hasn't been set aside, the class just isn't as good. I can manage it. I can control it. I did this as a fifth grade teacher, as a seventh grade science teacher. You can control it, but that's sometimes by boring kids into submission, which is what you mentioned. I mean, just because a class is quiet doesn't mean any learning's happening. And so that's not the goal.
Now, obviously a class that's in chaos where kids aren't safe and all that, but those baselines have to be set up. But in that model classroom, I'm sure so much work has gone into how to help students make good choices, that I would 100% trust those kids to make good choices. And when they're not, you just say, "Hey, we're outside the parameters we set. Now, move back in". Is that an accurate read of that classroom or other model classrooms you see?
Lindsay Jones:
Yes. And I think your critical point is it's not about vertigo of possibility to students. It's about scaffolding. You start to make choices. You have a smaller number. What are they? You're learning about them, you're reflecting on them. I think that's really critical. You said that and you talked about it, and I just wanted to pull it out because yeah, that's right. That's right.
Jon Eckert:
I love that.
Lindsay Jones:
That classroom was fun. It was amazing. Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. I love that. I never heard that. I've never heard that phrase vertigo of possibility. But yes, that sounds like anarchy, what we want. And I think kids feel safer where they know where the boundaries are, and then they know how to move, and then they scaffold and they build, and then they can do amazing stuff. And that's when teaching gets really fun because it's not about the teacher anymore, it's about the learner. And we're all learning together. So I always like to end with a lightning round. So I know you're super busy, so if you've taken time to read a book that you would recommend, it's got to be pretty good because busy people don't just read beach reads all the time. So is there a great book that you would recommend? It could be education related or not, but is there anything you've read in the last year that you would recommend to those listening?
Lindsay Jones:
It is. And it's called Radical Inclusion. And yeah, have you read it?
Jon Eckert:
I've heard of it. I have not read it yet, but it's been recommended to me already, but go ahead.
Lindsay Jones:
It's so interesting, and I'm so sorry, I have to follow up with the name of the author. He's an education minister in Sierra Leone.
Jon Eckert:
Wow.
Lindsay Jones:
And it is phenomenal. It is super interesting. It is well written. It's thought provoking. Yeah, he spoke actually, we saw-
Jon Eckert:
I was going to say he was at the convening. Yeah, he was on a panel. Yeah, so his name is Ori Brafman.
Lindsay Jones:
Thank you, yes.
Jon Eckert:
And it's What the Post-9/11 World Should Have Taught Us About Leadership. It came out in 2018. Is that it?
Lindsay Jones:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah?
Lindsay Jones:
Radical Inclusion. And it's about the way they're reframing in Sierra Leone, including individual... They're starting with everything in terms of radical inclusion, voting, everything.
Jon Eckert:
I love that.
Lindsay Jones:
People with disabilities and a barrier-free environments.
Jon Eckert:
Wow. That's beautiful. All right, so then what is the worst piece of advice you've ever given or received in your work?
Lindsay Jones:
Oh, my God, so many.
Jon Eckert:
I'm sorry.
Lindsay Jones:
I know, it's terrible. But I actually think one of the worst pieces of advice that I was ever given was that you could not be a parent and a full-time attorney.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, wow.
Lindsay Jones:
Or a full-time anything.
Jon Eckert:
Wow.
Lindsay Jones:
And that has not proven to be true. And it was a really bad piece of advice because it made me worry for years. And it was silly that I did that, so.
Jon Eckert:
Wow. All right, that's helpful. That's a helpful reframe of bad advice. What's the best piece of advice you've either given or received?
Lindsay Jones:
A wonderful attorney I worked with, the best piece of advice was, "Be bold." This amazing guy, Dick Siegel. And then my other favorite one is a Matisse quote, Henry Matisse the painter. I have it on my board over here. "Don't wait for inspiration. It comes while working."
Jon Eckert:
Well said. I love that. I did not know that Matisse quote, but that's a great add and obviously, you got to be bold to do the work, so those two reminders go well together. All right, so as we wrap up, what's your most hopeful perspective on where we're heading in education makes you most optimistic?
Lindsay Jones:
I am incredibly optimistic about inclusive education. I meet people every single day who want to make that happen. And they see, when they use Universal Design for Learning or whatever method they're using to make learning more inclusive, they get to something you just referred to, which I call the magic moments. They come up to me and tell me, "Oh, my God, this happened. I saw learning. I remembered why I went into teaching." That experience of watching someone really learn, learning with them, that I am so lucky because so many people share those types of things with me. And it just means I feel like I'm so hopeful I want to tell everyone about this and help them to be using it.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, what a beautiful example. I think it's what gets educators up every morning. It's not the paycheck. It's going to be those magic moments. And once you've had a couple, they're addictive. You keep coming back for more. And that's a beautiful way to wrap up. Well, Lindsay, thank you for the great work you do at CAST, for UDL, for your leadership and just taking the time to be with us.
Lindsay Jones:
Yeah, thank you so much.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Rachel Johnson, the CEO of PiXL in the UK. They discuss PiXL's mission to improve student outcomes by supporting leaders in schools and highlight key challenges faced by school leaders today. Johnson shares insights into overcoming people-pleasing tendencies, setting boundaries, and creating ownership. The conversation covers practical tools for healthy communication and empowering leaders to think deeply and make transformative changes in their schools.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Join us for Just Leadership on February 3rd at Baylor University, a one-day professional learning event for school administrators – from instructional coaches to superintendents – that focuses on catalyzing change as a leadership team.Register Now!Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipEdD in K-12 Educational LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Jon Eckert:
Today we are here with Rachel Johnson, a friend that we've made through mutual friends in the UK who's doing amazing work. And I just want to jump right in to what you're learning and then we'll back into more of what you do. So what are you learning through PiXL? So you can give us a quick introduction to what PiXL is and then what you're learning from the leaders that you're supporting.
Rachel Johnson:
Yeah. So PiXL stands for Partners in Excellence. We work with two and a half thousand schools across the UK. And what we're learning is how important leadership is in the conversation in school improvement. So we believe in improving life chances and outcomes for every young person irrespective of background or status or finance.
But behind all of that is the ability for brilliant people in schools to lead well. And that's the conversation people want to have now more and more than perhaps they ever have because people are fascinated with how they can be better, how they can thrive, what's stopping them thrive. And that is the attention that I've been giving a lot of my work recently around that issue.
Jon Eckert:
So love that mission. We always push at the center for moving from some students to all students and now to each student, what does it mean to do that for each student so that thriving for each student is powerful. In order to have those thriving students, you have to have thriving leaders. So what are some of the things, I think you mentioned you have 3,200 people in leadership courses, what are some of those takeaways that are keeping people from thriving that you're finding?
Rachel Johnson:
Yeah, we're finding a lot of very common things. And actually it doesn't matter what level they are in school leadership, it's the same issues. So things like people pleasing, which is getting in the way of leadership and decision-making, not being able to hold a boundary, sometimes not having a boundary. So there is no difference between work and life. There is no stopping. We just carry on going. I think that's a real issue.
We're finding people not really knowing are structured to have difficult conversations or as I like to call them, crucial conversations. They shouldn't be difficult, but the lack of confidence in having those conversations. And then I think other things like how to create buy-in, how to get momentum, how to have that very delicate balance as Jim Collins calls it, between the brutal facts and the unwavering hope.
So what does that actually look like on the ground? How can I do both at the same time without going for hopium where you're drugging people on things that can't actually happen or being so honest and brutal that nobody wants to follow you because it sounds so depressing? So what does the reality of that look like in school leadership? And what we are finding is across nearly three and a half thousand people on our leadership courses, they're all struggling with those kind of issues.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's powerful. I think one of the questions that I'm always asking leaders because it's a hard one is, and I think it comes from Patrick Lencioni, but I'm not sure. It could be from another theorist, they all start to run together a bit. I don't think it's John Maxwell, I don't think it's Jim Collins, but is for who are you willing to make enemies? What ideas are you willing to make enemies over? So what are those things that like, "Hey, this is a non-negotiable for me."
And I think a lot of educators don't think about that because we have a people pleasing sense of what we want to do. And so that's a really hard conversation to have because I agree, we tend to lean toward hopium. I think that's a great term for what we do. And so how do you get people into those crucial conversations? I like that reframe as well. But how do you get them into that when you know that there's kind of a natural resistance among a lot of educators to those kinds of conversations?
Rachel Johnson:
It is really difficult, but not having the conversation doesn't make the issue go away. And I think as soon as people realize, "It's actually making me miserable. My department is underperforming, therefore young people are underperforming all because I'm not courageous enough to have the conversation." And what we find using Susan Scott's model of fierce conversations is when you give them that seven-part model of how to have the conversation in one minute where you say your peace but you stay in adult, as Transactional Analysis would call it.
So you're not giving it a kind of sly interpretation. You're not giving a mean tone to your voice. You're being absolutely clear and absolutely kind, but absolutely straight, then people respond usually really well. But I think one of the things that is most disconcerting for leaders and educators is you have to listen to what the other person says. It isn't just about us delivering our truth and how we perceive things.
It's about being quiet long enough to hear what they're saying and maybe more importantly what they're not saying. And so it's fascinating to me that what is stopping us sometimes is the courage. But this is really affecting our schools. And certainly in the UK, in a recent survey that one of our big agencies did called Teacher Tapp, 64% of teachers said they had worked or did work in a toxic environment in school. That's a lot of people calling their environment where we should be seeing young people thrive, and our leaders and our teachers are saying it's toxic.
So something's going wrong somewhere. And what stops us dealing with this I think is the lack of courage and the lack of tools to be able to know how to approach it, which is why that's where we put our weight in the practical tools that can help people unlock this. And people say things like, "We feel liberated, transformed. It's like a weight off and we feel like we can do it." And that is the kind of feedback we get regularly. And I think that is really very, very important that people are helped to do these difficult things.
Jon Eckert:
Really, really good stuff there. It reminded me of two things in what you said because you've shared a lot. And I love how much we've into right here off the bat. The book High Conflict by Amanda Ripley. I don't know if you've seen that book. It came out in 2021, so it's been out for a while. She introduces this concept, which I think is what you're getting at in that one minute conversation a little bit in the way we listen.
So it's not her idea again, but this is where I came to the idea. It's the idea of looping, that when you're in conflict with someone, the key is when you're receiving the feedback from the person where they're telling you how they feel, where they're upset, where they're disagreeing with you, you have to listen, then you have to distill what's being said.
Then you have to check for understanding and then question, "Did I get it right?" So that you're repeating back. Because I think sometimes, at least in the United States, some of the conflict is due to poor communication, and that looping provides an opportunity to correct that communication error and it's a form of empathy because it's taking on that perspective, did I hear you right?
Now, just active listening, you can really alienate people with active listening skills without being genuinely curious. So that's one of the things when you're doing that, you can't do it in a formulaic way that feels like you're just jumping through hoops because that's really alienating to the person doing it. Does that square with what you found or am I thinking about something differently than you are?
Rachel Johnson:
I think what's fascinating is that, and this is what I do really for my job now, is I take lots of different things like that from High Conflict from Chris Voss and his hostage negotiation techniques, crisis communication that we have over here with a fierce conversation and I kind of mush it all together in one model.
And so what all of these people are saying, including Nancy Kline who's written brilliant work on listening and thinking is we mustn't overdo it when we talk to people. We mustn't kind of interpret what they're saying and then tell them what they're thinking. We have to ask great questions. We have to be comfortable with silence and let the silence do the heavy lifting. Most of us are not comfortable with that. We have to summarize like you've said and say at the end, "Is that right?"
And if the person says, "No, that's not right," that's the opening of the conversation, not the end of it. That's when we say, "Okay, great. What did I not summarize well? What have I not understood? Tell me?" We've got to be more curious and less judgmental. But because I think educators are so used to making judgments, because that's literally our job a lot of the time is making judgments on grades, on behavior, on progress, to not make judgments on fellow adults, it's sometimes really hard.
Jon Eckert:
I always say educators are way more gracious with students than they are with each other. And-
Rachel Johnson:
Or themselves.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. Oh. And typically that lack of graciousness to others is because of the lack of graciousness to self. I think one of the key points you said, and you mentioned earlier in tone when you asked that question, "What did I not get right?" You can say, "What did I not get right?" In a very curious way. Or, "What did I not get right?" With the eye roll.
And then you've either closed off the conversation or you've opened it. And I think the tone and the facial expression goes a long way to that, which is why I think we have to have this interpersonal connection. If you're doing this over text or you're doing it over email, it's pretty doomed to fail. I don't know. Would you agree with that, that this has to be kind of face-to-face as much as possible?
Rachel Johnson:
Yeah. I think a lot happens on Zoom these days or on Teams, which is difficult. And I think that is manageable if you get your tone right, if you get your eye contact right. I think one of the most damaging things in communication with anybody is the not listening, as you've mentioned, and the tone. So making it sound like a judgment. But the other thing I think is really difficult is when we speak in ulterior transactions. So the conversation we're having is not the conversation we're thinking. And people can smell it a mile off, can't they?
I think of all kinds of situations at home where I say to my children like, "Oh, did you not have time to tidy your bedroom?" And what I'm actually saying is, "You're absolute slobs. You round here making a mess of my house." And they can hear the criticism and then they say, "Are you having a go at me mum?" And then I go, "No, I don't know what you're talking about." And that's dishonest. And I think we fall into that a few times when we are not courageous enough to have the real conversation. So I think that's another trap we can fall into.
Jon Eckert:
Right. I think I had a couple of those conversations with a daughter and a wife this weekend potentially, so that I need to go back and do some correcting. So thank you for that. One other thing you mentioned earlier was, and I think it's a chapter in, I think it's in your first book, about getting buy-in. One of the things that I've been pushing on here, and I'm curious to hear if there's a cultural difference here potentially.
I found Gen Zs and millennials in the US, they do not want to buy-in to things because it sounds like an idea is being sold that they're just supposed to get on board with. And they don't do that. And I almost say that to their credit because they want to co-own what they're doing. And so buy-in is not something that they're interested in. They want to own it with you sometimes in ways that make it way better if we do that. Do you find that in the UK that there's less interest in buying in and more of an interest in kind of co-owning the work? Or is that still something that works relatively well in the UK, trying to get buy-in?
Rachel Johnson:
I think you're absolutely right, and I think this new generation are very different and I think they don't want to do it the way we did it. We wore tiredness and exhaustion like a trophy, like a medal. "Look how knackered I am, look how late I was up doing all my work." They look at that and go, "I don't want that. I want to have a sabbatical. I want to have a life. I want to go to the gym. I want to do what I want to do." So I think the way we are talking about buy-in needs to change. But I also think the way we get buy-in needs to change.
We, I think have thought buy-in means, "Here's my idea, here's what we are doing, join me in what I'm doing." And that isn't really genuine buy-in. Buy-in is saying, "What is the problem we're trying to solve? Let's get people around the table, listen to really healthy conflict within a boundary where we feel safe to be able to disagree." All that psychological safety stuff by Amy Edmondson, it's crucial. It's not easy, but it's crucial. And then I think people do buy-in when they're heard. I think all these things we're talking about are linked. If I'm ignored, I'm not going to buy-in whether it's a great idea or not, because you're not hearing me. So I think we have to create more time to be heard and to hear.
But I think one of the issues we have in leadership, particularly in education is we're always in such a rush. That hurry-up driver like, "Let's get everything done yesterday driver," can stop us really engaging and listening. And so where we can go fast, we sometimes do, and I think we lose a lot in that, especially this new generation who want to be heard, want to think things through, want to be well-researched. Great, that can really benefit us, but we have to give it time.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and again, leadership's always going to be messy and it can either be messy on the front end where you all own, where you're going together or it's going to be messy on the back end. So I'd much rather have it be messy on the front end.
That just takes some patience and some ability to avoid falling victim to the tyranny of the urgent where we constantly throw one change after another at people in a way that doesn't actually produce what we want because we're too impatient to see it happen.
So I'm curious how you got to this work. So this amazing work that you're doing through PiXL, which we can get more into PiXL in a little bit, but you personally, how did you end up writing these books, doing the podcasts, building out being a catalyst at PiXL to do this kind of work with leaders, but where did that come from?
Rachel Johnson:
So I think it started fairly young really when I was, my dad led a church and he was a leader in schools and so was my mom. So I watched all of that all of my life. But I was kind of old before my age really, and I always wanted to lead something. So I did Sunday school when I was 10, teaching three-year olds. I always took on more responsibility. And so what I wanted when I was 13 and 14 was to work out what does leadership look like? How can I be a better version of me?
How can I make change happen? And apart from reading people that you've mentioned, like John Maxwell, there wasn't an awful lot for people my age. And so I never had anything age appropriate. So I read all the adult stuff. And I was looking back at my old journals actually yesterday. I was clearing out the loft and I look in my journals at me at 13 and go, "There she is, there's the person I am now.
There, I can see her so clearly when I look." But it wasn't usual back then. And so I was a bit different and did different things, but I was absolutely committed to leadership. And so from that point on really, wherever I was I wanted to lead. And it wasn't that I was bothered about promotion or position or title or money. I'm not bothered about any of those things.
I want to go where I can be to make the biggest difference. And so for me, leadership is where you make the biggest difference, where you could have the agency to make the difference. And for me, that has become the driving force really to try and do good in the world, to try and help people create their own change. So yes, that's where it started, very young.
Jon Eckert:
Love that. And so now at PiXL, what do you try to do organizationally? You gave us a little bit of what PiXL stands for, but how are you doing that and what different avenues in different countries? I know you have a number of ways you're trying to serve leaders who want to become the kind of leaders you wanted to become as a young person.
Rachel Johnson:
Yeah. So we do conferences, we did big conferences in the UK and those are hugely attended. We work with different types of leaders. We have two podcasts, PiXL Pearls, which are just 10 minutes leadership reflection. So not heavy, but just a moment of reflection to think about our own leadership. And then we have the PiXL leadership book club where we take non-educational school books because that's another really important thing of mine, to look outside of education, not always within.
And so I interviewed two school leaders about a non-educational leadership book and how they've applied those messages into their context. And that's the kind of thing I'm interested in. I'm interested in looking at what other people in the world are doing and how we can take that from marketing or that from branding or that from hostage negotiation and how we can turn our schools around based on the lessons that've been learned elsewhere.
So that's become a really big thing. Now I write all kinds of things on that. The books which I wrote that two have come out already, the chapters in those are all of the things that I asked our leaders, "What do you struggle with?" And that's what they said. And so I wrote the chapters for them really to try and help us all get a little bit more unstuck. Because we all get stuck and sometimes it's too difficult to find a great big book and read all the way through it when you haven't got time.
So it's really short, bite-sized chunks to help get us unstuck. And so with that and working and with how we have resources and strategies, a whole range of things to help school leaders get the support they need. But I think one of the most important things we've just started doing is named after the book, we have something called Time to Think where leaders are able to book time with my team to just think a few ideas.
We're not going to talk, they're going to book 15 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes. And that time is for them to talk through their ideas, for us to ask questions to help them get clarity, but for them to leave more empowered than they came in. And what school leaders are telling us is they don't have enough time to think.
It happens on holidays, in the mornings, in the middle of the night. And it shouldn't happen then, it should happen in working hours too. But sometimes people need a bit of a helping hand to get there. So that's one of the most exciting things we're doing at the minute, creating that time to think and walking with people as they do that.
Jon Eckert:
I love that. I tell people when they start masters or doctoral programs at Baylor that the biggest gift we're giving you is time to think through what you're doing with the kinds of books that you're talking about. I totally agree, we need to look at education, but we need to look beyond education. So I love that conversation you're having with school leaders about books.
Everything you described from the PiXL Pearls to everything else is trying to give people this catalyzing force to spend more time thinking and just carving out that space is a huge gift. So I think you mentioned that you primarily work in the UK, but that you have some connection into 46 different countries. Are there things you're seeing that feel like they work cross-culturally, like, "Hey, everyone is dealing with this." Because I know most of our listeners are in the United States and we can spend way too much time navel-gazing at our challenges and opportunities here.
I'm wondering those conversations that you've had where they identify challenges that leaders have, are there any things there that you're like, "Hey, this feels like a common challenge. It does not matter where it is. This is..." Maybe it's the Time to Think, but if it's something other than that as well. What are some of those challenges you're seeing that cut across contexts?
Rachel Johnson:
Well, how I would kind of evidence that really is it's the podcasts that have gone all over the world in different countries. And we haven't really pushed those out. We've had them in the UK and they've gone everywhere through Apple or Spotify. But the ones that are most listened to, that's what's really fascinating. The biggest episodes are Dare to Lead with Brené Brown. So clearly if that's our leading episode, it's because people don't have courage like we've touched upon.
The other one that is massive is the People Pleasing one, which is based on a book by Emma Reid Terrell called Please Yourself and is around the real problems of people pleasing. That's been another massive hitter. And then the third one, which has been a really big hitter, is based on Cal Newport's work on Deep Work and Time To Think.
So if that's the three places where people are going across all of the people who listen to our podcasts. And I think in total there's about 195,000 downloads now maybe. I think that says something about where people's attention is, that's what they're craving. And I think we should listen to that because I think these things are quite deep-rooted and I think people don't find solutions to how to handle those three things either.
Jon Eckert:
Well, I love Brené Brown, I love Cal Newport. I need to read the people pleasing book, so.
Rachel Johnson:
Wonderful.
Jon Eckert:
I'm getting good recommendations. Yeah. The Slow Productivity by Cal Newport that just came out is kind of the latest manifestation. I still think Deep Work is his best book, but Slow Productivity I've worked into some of my classes because I do think this idea and his premise there is that we do less things, work at a natural pace and obsess over quality.
That's how we provide the human value that is going to become increasingly value as AI and other things automate other pieces. It's what are we uniquely suited to build and do? And that's really to me, the extension of deep work. That's the critical component. And you have to have time to think because-
Rachel Johnson:
Yeah, you have to have time to think. And then you kind of think, why are we not doing deep work? Why are we overstretched? And I think it comes down to what I would call now toxic productivity. I think when you have a profession full of people who love to be efficient and love to-do lists and tick things off and feel great about themselves, the danger is we become addicted to productivity.
We can't rest, we can't stop, we can't switch off. We have to be doing something productive. We even monetize our hobbies for goodness's sake because we can't do them for free, because that's a waste of time. It is quite astonishing. And we are obsessed with adding things, not taking things away. So I don't speak to many leaders who say, "We're reducing our efforts by half because we don't think it's working. So these five things are going and these five things will replace them." They should add more things. No wonder we're all frazzled, so.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and social media has turned us into the product. So our attention is what is demanded and that is what is being sold. And that's new and I think devastating for especially adolescents who are coming into leadership, those 13-year-olds that dreamed about leading the way you do. "Oh, I can do that through my followership on this as I sell products for someone else." And so you become a conduit for other corporations to grab other people through you.
It's not real leadership. And so I worry about, I do not want this to happen, but my email box, I worry that I will be getting AI-generated emails into the box. I will then have AI-generating responses, and I'll just be a spectator watching AI talk to AI which by definition, Darren Speaksma says this all the time. AI is consensus because all it is scraping from large language models.
It is not wisdom. To get wisdom, you need the human. And that's the point of deep work. How do we pursue joy through truth and love? How do we do this and this? And AI just, that's not what AI is designed to do. It can summarize, it can collect, it can scrape. But that's the part that I'm like, "Oh." And that's the life-giving work.
And so Greg McCown, UK guy, Essentialism, that was the book. And then it became how do I? I've reduced all the small rocks out of the jar and I've just got big rocks and now the rocks are too much. And I feel like that's where we're at. So I love his work as well. So based on all that, those common challenges that we see, where do you see hope? Where are you most hopeful?
Rachel Johnson:
I'm hopeful that people want the conversation. I'm hopeful that in a room of thousands of leaders, I can say, "Put your hand up if you're a people pleaser." I've been a recovering people pleaser since 2020. I often say to people, I went into recovery in March 2020 when I read that book, Please Yourself by Emma Reid Terrell. And thought, "Oh my goodness, I don't want to be that." She says, you can either be an authentic person or a people pleaser.
You cannot be both. And I was really convicted by it because I thought, I want to be the best kind of leader, but if I'm people pleasing, I can't be. This has got to change. And I am with roomfuls of people now virtually and in person who are embracing this, who say, "I want to go in recovery too. Enough. I realize it's holding me back." And wherever there are people who are willing to change and are up for the work and up for the debate about it all, I think there's always hope.
And when we face our own brutal facts and we believe we can change, then I think there's always hope. And that is the kind of message we want to talk about in education in the UK and further afield, that we are not stuck. We don't have to be stuck. Human connection, human understanding, human wisdom, as you mentioned, these things that we can learn to be better and overcome our stuckness can change our lives first and foremost before we change anybody else's, but then help other people to change.
And I think there is a great deal of hope. I think sometimes we have to look hard for it because social media and the news don't talk hope, they talk despair. And so we have to be very open and vocal about the hope. But that's one of the things that I hope to always be, the voice of hope. Not ignoring the brutal facts. We mustn't do that, but always saying, "We'll find a way if we think about this. If we invest, we will find a way." Because I believe we will.
Jon Eckert:
Love that. The next book I'm working on right now is "Gritty Optimism: Catalyzing Joy in Just Schools." How do we build on what we know can change in schools and what they can be? Because there's so many great stories out there and there's so many ways to do it. So this conversation has been super encouraging that way.
So I'm just going to end us with a quick lightning round here. You've already given me at least one book recommendation I need to read. I'm just curious, in the last year, what's a book that you've read from any field? It doesn't have to be from education, that you would recommend to me and to us?
Rachel Johnson:
I'll give you two, Ruthlessly Caring by Amy Walters Cohen about the paradoxes in leadership and the Friction Project by Robert I. Sutton and Huggy Rao.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. So I have been reading pieces of the Friction Project, remarkable. Have not read Ruthlessly Caring, so I've got to get on that. Thank you. All right. What is the worst advice you've received or given as a leader? And then follow that up with the best advice you've either given or received.
Rachel Johnson:
The worst advice I've ever been given is that humility is putting yourself last. Because it's not true.
Jon Eckert:
That's good.
Rachel Johnson:
That's a very blunt and terrible definition. The worst advice that I've probably given would be in my early years of leadership when I was first new and basically said to people, "Maybe don't cause a fuss about that." Because I was a people pleaser, I didn't want to make a fuss. And so sometimes I told other people not to make a fuss and that was a mistake.
Jon Eckert:
That's good. So if you were, oh, so I had a quick break on the connection. So our connection broke there a minute. So don't make a fuss, that's also bad advice. Correct? Yeah.
Rachel Johnson:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
So what's the good advice that you've received or given, what's the best advice you've either given or received?
Rachel Johnson:
The best advice I think I would give is make sure when you have any interaction that you are okay and you're seeing the other person as okay. And what I mean by that is that we're not coming with an attitude of judgment or superiority or anything that someone can sniff, which is going to put their back against the wall immediately. So be an adult, be in control of yourself. And if you're not in control of yourself, be vulnerable, but don't do it and create a mess in front of somebody else when it's going to damage them. I think that is unfair.
Jon Eckert:
That's great advice. Love that. What is one word, if you had to describe the schools you work with right now, what would be one word you'd use to describe the schools or the leaders of the schools that you serve?
Rachel Johnson:
Resilient.
Jon Eckert:
Love that. Love that. No, that's right. If we're still in education right now, we're resilient people, so good word. And then what would be one word you would hope would describe the next year in the schools that you serve?
Rachel Johnson:
I'd hope, it's a dramatic word, but I'd say transformational. Because I think if people can grasp this stuff, if they can make the time to think, if they can put themselves on their thinking tank first, I honestly believe we'll overcome challenges that we didn't think were possible. And I hope that in turn doesn't transform PiXL. It's not about that. It's about transforming them first and then transforming the way that they lead because that, I believe, unlocks everything else.
Jon Eckert:
That's a great word to end on. Well, Rachel, this conversation has been great for me. Huge encouragement. Thank you for the work you're doing and thanks for spending the time with us.
Rachel Johnson:
Thank you so much. I have loved speaking to you.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Dr. George Yancey, a Baylor University professor. Hear them discus his collaborative conversations model for addressing racial issues. He proposes goal-oriented dialogues that prioritize listening, empathy, and building on others' ideas. Yancey believes these conversations can foster deeper understanding and more productive solutions to racial and societal conflicts.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Join us for Just Leadership on February 3rd at Baylor University, a one-day professional learning event for school administrators – from instructional coaches to superintendents – that focuses on catalyzing change as a leadership team.Register Now!Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipEdD in K-12 Educational LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Abby Andrietsch, CEO of St. Augustine Preparatory Academy, in Milwaukee. They discuss the school's rapid growth since its founding in 2017 and its mission to serve a diverse student body with excellence. Andrietsch shares insights into how Aug Prep has become one of the top-rated schools in the state and the transformative impact it has had on the surrounding community, including a 43% reduction in crime.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Join us on October 15th at the Hurd Welcome Center for an in-person information session to hear more about the MA in School Leadership and the EdD in K-12 Educational Leadership. This is a free event but we need you to register here: https://app.e2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/2003682/1973032/Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipEdD in K-12 Educational LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Transcript:
Jon:
So today we have Abby with us. She is one of my favorite school leaders from one of my favorite schools in the country, St. Augustine Prep in Milwaukee. And so I want to start, before we jump into how you came to this, just tell the audience about Aug Prep, how it started and where it's at right now.
Abby:
Awesome. Thanks, Jon. So Aug Prep is not necessarily the typical story. We actually just started, we launched in 2017. So in a lot of ways we are a baby as an organization, but we have grown a lot since we launched. We serve today 2200 students on Milwaukee's South Side. We have the privilege of serving about 86% of our students would be considered low income, more than 95% students of color. And they just have all the potential in the world, same potential as my own kids who are actually also students here.
But we started in 2017 with a vision of being part of bigger, something bigger in Milwaukee to serve students with excellence. Milwaukee does have a voucher program, which created a lot of opportunity for us and we chose, our founders chose as we launched to start as a Christian school very intentionally knowing we'd get about a thousand dollars less per people. But that Jesus being at the core of everything we do was really essential.
And we started with four pillars, faith, family, excellence in academics, and athletics and arts. And I think a lot of schools do one or two of those really well, some even three. But it's rare that you see the four pieces coming together with excellence. And for us, I would say that's really the critical part of the fabric of who we are is serving our students with excellence, but serving the whole child with excellence.
Jon:
No, and I get to visit there and Erik Ellefsen, our Director of Networks and Improvement Communities has been talking about Aug Prep for years. I finally got to visit this past summer and it is a truly remarkable place. If I remember correctly, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, when your school started in the neighborhood that you were in, there was a dramatic reduction in crime in the neighborhood, literally transformed the neighborhood. In my mind it's like 42%. What's the actual number? Do you remember the actual number Abby?
Abby:
I do. It's 43, so you're really close We opened our doors, crime in our neighborhoods gone down by about 43%.
Jon:
Yeah, that's amazing. And that's what we want. We don't want just schools that are isolated things. We want schools that really serve their communities well and the communities that serve the school well. And so love that statistical evidence that this really has made a difference.
Now you just purchased a college campus on the North Side of Milwaukee. So talk about that and where you're headed because again, that's a big play to make right now, especially with some of the buildings that I know may not even be usable. I don't even know all the details, but where are you at in that process, Abby?
Abby:
So I have a business background, we'll get to that later, but we weren't planning this. The candor is it was an opportunity that God created that we kind of jumped in fully for. On the North Side of Milwaukee, there is a college, it was Cardinal Stritch that closed about three months before our founders were there for an event. It was the first time they had been there and they walked around thinking this place was meant to be a school.
And really long story short, the school was purchased. We are launching a second campus on Milwaukee's North Side. What I'm most excited about is actually the school is located in a place that bridges a lot of communities in Milwaukee from more affluent, whiter suburbs to some of the toughest zip codes in Milwaukee. And it's a really unique location. And actually the college that was there before, their history includes a deep history of faith and a deep history of diversity. And our vision for this campus is to create a campus that reflects the world we live in, where our kids are part of our diverse socioeconomic, cultural, racial student body, all grounded and unified and being in Christ, but seeing and valuing the differences in each other and learning and growing with each other through that.
Jon:
Love that vision, love the opportunity that wasn't even being sought out. I mean, it's so much of what Aug Prep's story is that you've just had your work multiplied in so many ways, which has been really meaningful. And now just another thing that stuck in my head. You're one of the, if not the top-rated school in Milwaukee. In what measure? How is that determined, Abby?
Abby:
So I mentioned earlier we're part of a voucher system in the state as such, and I'm a big believer in parent choice. And as we get public funds, being accountable to serving kids well. So I lead with the and academic excellence and serving the whole child Jesus, intertwined and grounding every piece of that. We are per the state's report card in the top 2% of growth of any schools in the state. We are the number one K to 12 school in Milwaukee, the number two in the state. We've gone back and forth between one and two. And that for me is a number. But numbers matter. I look at those numbers as necessary but not sufficient measures of, "Are we serving our students and our families well?"
Jon:
Love that example of excellence. And anytime you can measure growth and not just status proficiency, which can be based on the demographics of your school or the location and the educational attainment of parents, you actually are saying, "Here's where they come in and here's where they grow." And I love the point that it's necessary but not sufficient. And so in this conversation about choice and what that looks like, certainly in Texas, that's a really polarizing conversation right now.
At the center, we want to serve leaders who are doing great work to serve each kid wherever they're called to serve. And so that's how we came across you. So tell us how you got into this role of CEO of this startup school that now was purchased a college campus. How do you get into that? You have a fairly non-traditional journey. So would you mind sharing that?
Abby:
I do have a non-traditional journey. My training and education is a lot more on the business side. It was actually when I was in graduate school that I stepped from a room full of business leaders talking about what I thought I wanted to go into totally disheartened because I realized it wasn't what I wanted to do and I stepped into a room with people with business backgrounds working in education, and it was a light moment for me, a light bulb moment.
That in and of itself led me down working with some different national foundations. Gone back and forth in the corporate world a little bit, but I had the chance in Milwaukee almost 15 years ago to co-found an organization that worked with leaders from our local public schools, charter schools, and also private schools. And Aug Prep didn't exist at that point in time. And it was a group of leaders that came together around kids and quality and not politics of the adults really in the city.
And I spent about eight years getting to work with that organization, helping great schools grow, schools that wanted to get better, get better. We had a whole team of coaches that walked and worked with school leaders. I actually personally stepped away from that after eight years, wanting a little bit more time with my kids and to be the mom that I wanted to be. I just realized that the balance, it was a stage in life where I needed to step back. And about a year later I found myself in the interim role at Aug Prep, vehemently planning to be interim. And five and a half years later, I couldn't be happier to be here. Both of my kids are here. That was actually part of the decision to go from interim to full-time was my family made a decision to move closer to the school and to have our kids here. And it has just been God's, I think, biggest blessing for us in the last five and a half years through it all.
Jon:
Well, great example of the fact that I don't really think work-life balance exists. I think it's something that we always strive to attain. I've yet to meet anyone who's achieved it. And so I think there's work-life rhythm. So knowing when your family needs more of you. And then if you can get healthy work-life integration, which I think is what you've done, that's a win. That's a win.
Abby:
I think of it as harmony. So I like your rhythm, but I don't believe in work-life balance. But I do think there's a harmony that comes together and it looks different at different times.
Jon:
Well, and to be clear, so I give attribution, I think it's Adam Grant's work-life rhythm he talks about. I really like that. I think that's useful. So when you think about the challenges ahead for Aug Prep specifically, you're in a particular context. I mean Milwaukee is a gigantic voucher experiment that's been going on for decades. So it's in a different kind of context than a lot of people.
But what do you see as the biggest challenges to really being what you aspire to be at Aug Prep? That's one of the things I was impressed by this summer, you might be the number one or number two school in the state of Wisconsin for growth, but there definitely wasn't a sense that you had it all figured out. It felt like you all knew that there's places where you could get better and we're striving to do that. And that was what our work was together and how we do that joyfully. But in that joy there are challenges. And that joy doesn't mean it's the freedom from struggle. Joy is actually the fuel to struggle well, so when we lay these challenges out, that's not to depress the audience, but it's to be honest about, "Here are the challenges you see." So if you were to identify one, two, or three challenges ahead for Aug Prep, especially as you expand, what would you identify?
Abby:
Yeah. Well we've been a mixed expansion really since we started. In some ways we've added the equivalent of an additional school almost every year since we've opened. If I go big picture, I think the biggest challenge that we have as a community, but I would say this as a country as well, I just see it much more intensely as a community would be a lack of belief and a lack of hope.
So for our kids, especially in certain parts of Milwaukee, we have far too many kids that are 12, 13, 14 years old that are being told that they're never going to live to be 18, 19, 20. So just do what you want. Our kids need to be believed in and they need a sense of hope. And what I love about what I get to do is that hope gets to be Jesus grounded every day. In my last role, I didn't get to. Who I was as a leader, was deeply grounded in faith, but it wasn't an overt part of my job.
But as we think about the work we do that hope is eternal and earthly, but I think we have generations that have been failed, especially in our cities by our education system. And so how do we create a sense of hope where they don't see it from their past? And that's a big part. But along with that is a sense of belief in what's possible.
And I would argue that any of the kids that walk through our doors here at Aug Prep are just as capable as my own kids. They're just as capable as kids from our suburbs. And there are far too many adults that see the challenges, which are real, that they step in and through our doors with and don't believe that they can succeed at high levels. And I think the difference in what we do here is we do believe in what's possible. We set the bar high for them, equip them with tools to fly. But that lack of hope is I think one of our biggest challenges because it's mindset change, not just for our kids but for our community.
If I get tactical, we've been growing a lot and so we've always got to think about how do we hire great people? We're very intentional. We have a super rigorous process that people don't love going through, but when they're on the team, they love what it creates. Thinking about the growth that we've had in the last two years, we've hired more than 75 new staff each of the last two years. We've had more than 600 new students each of the last two years. That's a big deal. Both hiring enough great people, I would argue even more important is creating, keeping, and protecting the culture that we've worked so hard to build.
And so being really intentional about finding, developing, onboarding really great team members and even more, how do we be really intentional as new kids, as new staff come onboard? Having that culture that isn't created by lack of intention, but instead is there from the get-go. And actually it's gotten stronger each of the last couple of years as a result.
Jon:
Well, two things on that. You certainly will be a case study in the next book that I'm working on, which is Gritty Optimism: Catalyzing Joy in Just Schools. Because I think you're doing this in this powerful way where that optimism you have is grounded in the experience of what you've seen since 2017. You've seen kids become more of who they're created to be, and that becomes this virtuous cycle of improvement where you're not basing it on naive optimism where it's like, "I hope they'll be better or I think they could be better." You know they can be more of who they're created to be because you've seen it over and over again and then that becomes part of the culture.
The second part of that I wanted to ask is could you just briefly run through what your interview process is because that scale of hiring is remarkable in schools and trying to maintain culture and even improve culture doing that, that's a tremendous feat. So can you just describe what your interview process is?
Abby:
Yeah, that could be its own podcast.
Jon:
I'm sure. Yeah.
Abby:
And you can ask more. A couple of key pieces are part of it. A few years ago as a senior team, we took time to step back and say, "What are the most important characteristics of any team member at Aug Prep?" Could be a teacher, it could be administrator, could be one of our facilities, team members, security guard. And we identified three key pieces.
And for us, the first and foremost is an active and living faith walk with Jesus. The second is growth mindset and coachability. If you're an educator that's been in the work for 30 years, you don't think you have anything to grow and you want to coast, we're not the place to come. There are great places for educators that are there to go, but it's just not the right culture for us. And the third is actually belief and belief in our kids and our community and what's possible.
Those three things are built into every step of the process. From phone interview to essays, we ask people to write as part of the process to in-person. In addition to the core capabilities of any role, it's how are we really intentional? And we have a really diverse staff. I mean just even racially and ethnically, about 45% of our staff is diverse and we're working to make sure that that's throughout our organization and everybody is unified in certain places, Jesus being first and foremost and a desire to grow and learn. And so that in and of itself creates a place that staff members want to be and stay. So our goal is every year to have at least 90% of our staff stay. We've been between 85 and 90% for the last several years, 85 and 95% for the last several years. Our best source of new staff is our current team.
And so when people want to tell, we just had a team member whose sister and brother-in-law moved across the country from California. They were looking at Ohio and at Aug Prep. And when you have team members that love what they do and where they work every day, it's the best way for us to recruit new staff. And it's been a really big part of how we do what we do.
At the end of the day, we try to make sure every decision we make is around kids first. We are not a place that makes adult first decisions, and we recognize that in order to best serve our kids, we have to have a strong and healthy team. So there's a tension and balance that goes there, but I also think it means that we recruit team members with a really high bar for themselves with belief for kids, and that want to be in a place that strives to serve kids well. And that in and of itself creates that culture I talked about.
Jon:
I've been able to see that. Again, I need to be at Aug Prep when there are kids there because that's when it's fun.
Abby:
Yeah, you do.
Jon:
But in the team that you have, we have four of them that are in our master's program at Baylor. So Aug Prep has becomes some kind of a strange pipeline for Milwaukee to Waco Texas. But I see that in your team, they are building other leaders all the time. We always say leaders are always building leaders. And so they're encouraging the next group of people from Aug Prep. And I hope that we always have a nice conduit work. With your growth, you're going to need to continue growing leadership hopefully indefinitely, and you need partners to do that. We want to be that kind of catalytic partner for you where we can connect Aug Prep leaders with other schools because so many times, especially in the Christian school world, there's a lot of navel-gazing about, "These are our problems and nobody else's and nobody understands our context and nobody understands these challenges."
And what I've loved about the leaders that you've sent to us at Baylor is they're always looking to get more information and understand other contexts and figure out what they can take back to Aug Prep and then share out what is and isn't working at Aug Prep. And so that is a way to not only build culture, but actually accelerate that culture development. So really encouraged there. So we talked about the challenges, but you already kind of jumped into the opportunities you see, but what would be the thing you're most excited about for the year ahead for Aug Prep? And then we'll jump into a lightning round, but what are you most excited about for the year ahead and the opportunities you see?
Abby:
I'm most excited about, so this year ahead, we graduate our first group of college graduates. So I'm starting to see, I'll have finished my sixth year at the end of this school year. I'm just getting to see the ripple effects and I already see them. One of our graduates from just this last year is at Marquette. He's going on a service trip over Christmas this fall. He's talking about coming back and talking to our young men and women in chapel. And so just seeing the ripple effect of the leadership that's leaving. And he's actually a young man that would self-identify as lucky he didn't get kicked out in middle school, got in a lot of trouble. We do a lot around restorative practices. I know one of our fellows is doing a lot within the Baylor program around that. And it's so cool to watch our kids go from really struggling with themselves as much as it is with others and often with faith underneath to really flourishing and shining as young adults. And I can't wait to see what happens in the community.
So big picture, I'm probably most excited about watching some of our first class of graduates stepping into that next step of the journey. I think sometimes, and Jon, we've got four fellows at Baylor. You didn't ask me to do this, but we're a learning organization. There's a lot of things we're doing well. There's a lot of things we're still learning how to do. We want to share what we're doing, but how do we learn from others? And our fellows are down at Baylor because they're in a place that seeks to do that too. I've watched you and I've watched the Baylor school leadership, the Center for School leadership. It's not about faith or academic excellence, faith or serving the whole child. You all lead with that and that I talked about being really important and you create space for our leaders to learn.
And I think I often run into folks that say, "Well, you all are different. We can't do what Aug Prep is doing." I don't actually think we've done anything that's remarkably special or different. What we've done is pulled best practices from a lot of places and continued every year to think about how we get better, who do we need to learn from or what do we need to do differently? And we've been able to get bigger and better at the same time. We haven't arrived. I hope we never do because I think part of the culture of who we are is actually that constant mindset of what do we need to keep doing better to serve our kids and community?
Jon:
Love that attitude. Thank you. Thank you for that encouragement. And we just want to find more partners like you because they're out there. How do we connect other Aug Preps to this Aug Prep? People with a similar kind of mission and view and where can we learn together? And that's, I think as a Christian R1 University, that's our call is to help connect those pieces. So I'm grateful for the hard work you do or the work that the Lord does through you in the community because that's the evidence that it actually matters. Because we can talk about these things in platitudes all the time and sit down here at a university and say, "Hey, here's what we think people should do." What we need to see is what people are doing and where that's making a difference for kids.
So let's jump to the lightning round. So I know you have pulled from a lot of great ideas, so I'm curious if in the last year there's a really good book you might recommend to me and to us that you're like, "This was a super helpful book", whether it's in education or not, just a good book that you've read the last year. Or listened to. It's fine. Audible counts too.
Abby:
I do listen to a lot of books. I love to read, but I often find myself falling asleep when I sit down or lie down to read a little bit. You know what? I am a big believer in reading a lot of different things and pulling the pieces that apply most to your circumstances. So you talked about Adam Grant. I love reading his books. Anything Patrick Lencioni, I've read multiple times. We've pulled pieces from Jim Collins, Good to Great and Built to Last. And so I would say any of those pieces.
We read as a leadership group last year, Fierce Conversations, there's several takes of that, Radical Candor being one of them. But my probably biggest encouragement is be a reader. And for me it's been, those are all more leadership organizational books. When I'm really wrestling with a topic, I try to read the full spectrum of perspectives on it to then figure out where I'm at and finding those books. Just Teaching is one that I did just pick up in the last year, so I hadn't had a chance to see it before then, but it was one that I picked up and I'm not a teacher and so that's not my skill set, but there are pieces to learn and to then share with other people.
Jon:
Yeah, I love that. And it's really common, Abby, I hope you know that I am typically mentioned Lencioni, Adam Grant, Jim Collins, Jon Eckert. That's kind of the normal group that I'm mentioned. So that's comforting to know that.
Abby:
You know what actually what ties all of those people together, Jon, is you don't just think in theory. So when you write, you're not just thinking in theory. And I will own that that can be my struggle with higher ed is sometimes just being caught up in the theory. It's all of those leaders who are also authors think about how you take the theory and apply it in practice and how do you break it down in a way that is easy to digest. And so Lencioni writes in fables, Adam Grant tells his stuff in a lot of stories as well. And so that's, at least for me, usually I capture lessons learned by seeing things either I'm struggling with or trying to figure out how to put words into in stories that other people are talking about.
Jon:
Yeah. Well, and I love all those same authors for the same reason. And then is this Fierce Conversation because this the one by Susan Scott, is that who you?
Abby:
Yeah.
Jon:
So I have not read that one. It looks like another one I should read. So thank you for that. So let's start with this. Worst piece of advice you've ever given or received?
Abby:
Worst piece of advice?
Jon:
It could be a leadership piece.
Abby:
I had somebody tell me that I was taking somebody else's spot in business school because I wasn't sure if at some point I'd want some time to stop and be a mom. And so that was probably the worst piece of advice and my encouragement for anyone listening is that I think there's different phases of life. I also think that any education we get can be applied to lots of aspects of what we do.
Jon:
Yeah, no, that's good. I'm assuming that was because that was your degree at Stanford when you were getting question on that, right? I can't imagine.
Abby:
Right. And that was an awesome degree, but I actually had a whole conversation. It was someone in a generation that fought so that people like I can make the decisions that are best for me. But I think they fought for the choice, not for the decision themselves. And I appreciate being able to make it myself.
Jon:
That's well said. That's another podcast that we could do on how those choices get made. And so really grateful for that background you have because I think your curiosity and your ability to synthesize theory and apply it, I mean that comes great degree programs will do that. And obviously Stanford knows something about educating people, so that's good. Then best piece of advice you've ever given or received?
Abby:
Not to seek perfection, but always to strive to keep getting better. I think we get caught up in trying to be perfect and miss the opportunity to keep getting better.
Jon:
That's our favorite quote we use with our improvement communities. That your plan is possibly wrong and is definitely incomplete. So that should be empowering. There's places to grow. Then if you could in a word or a phrase, describe what Aug Prep will be in the next year, what would it be? So word or phrase for Aug Prep that would describe it in the next year?
Abby:
My hope is that it is a light on the hill. How do we be a light for the community, not just the kids in our building, but the whole community outside our building as well?
Jon:
Love that, beautiful sentiment. Well, Abby, thank you for being with us. Thanks for the work you do at Aug Prep. It's great to have partners like you because you make us all better.
Abby:
Thanks, Jon. Appreciate it.
-
In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Matt Northrop, the Associate Head of School at Oaks Christian School in Southern California. They discuss the school's decision to eliminate cell phone use during the school day and the positive effects this has had on student engagement and community building. Northrop shares insights into the implementation process and how students and parents have responded. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Join us on October 15th at the Hurd Welcome Center for an in-person information session to hear more about the MA in School Leadership and the EdD in K-12 Educational Leadership. This is a free event but we need you to register here: https://app.e2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/2003682/1973032/Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipEdD in K-12 Educational LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Transcription:
Jon:
Today, we're here with Matt Northrop, amazing leader in Southern California at Oaks Christian School. This conversation really started through a text exchange where I was asking how the year was going, and I got this great response from Matt. First of all, give us a little bit of a window into how the year started at Oaks and what you're doing is a little bit different than what you've done in the past.
Matt Northrop:
Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on, Jon, have the utmost respect for you and the show and all the things that you all are doing, but yeah, this year we, so a little bit about Oaks Christian. We are about 1,700 students, a little over 1,100 on the high school side. This year we made the jump in after reading Anxious Generation made the decision with leadership that we wanted to walk away from our students being able to use cell phones while on campus. We've had a number of different iterations with cell phones. We've used them in the classrooms, we've kind of jumped in on the tech side and really believing that that could be a tool. I think a lot of schools have gone that direction. We just really felt as we not only read it, but also as we saw a lot of the same conclusions that he was coming up with, we really felt like we needed to do something drastic on the phones.
We had pretty early on made sure that our teachers were involved in this decision and that they were aware of it and communicated at the beginning of the summer for all of our students and parents. What we've done is we've made it where you can't have a cell phone on or in your possession throughout the school day from, and we start our first classes at 8:30, so 8:30 until 3:15. What we have found, and this is what we were texting back and forth, is it has absolutely ... Not that our culture wasn't for us. I think the culture was always there. What the cell phone was doing was interrupting what the culture had the potential of being. As we took away cell phones in these first few weeks of school, the noise level in the hallways has multiplied probably two or three fold in good ways.
Kids are laughing, kids are playing games, they actually have board games in our spiritual life office that they're playing. Kids are in circles and they're having conversations. They're sharing stories where you might find the first few weeks when there were cell phones, and kids sitting on a couch or a chair somewhere just kind of minding their own business on the phone. I don't see kids by themselves anymore. Whether that's them having the courage of just wanting to go out and start talking with friends or meet new friends, or if that's people, kids on our campus who are seeing somebody who's all by themselves and sitting down and having that conversation. It has been a huge boost to our community, to the connection that takes place on campus. We've really look back at the teachers are saying, this is a game-changer for the school.
Jon:
It's powerful. We're hearing this, I mean, some states are banning phones, there are districts moving to this, they're public schools, independent schools. I'm curious to hear how your parents received this. You mentioned teachers starting to communicate this I think early in the summer. How did you go about communicating this shift and moved away from, this is something that I think sometimes kids feel like it's a punitive measure, like you're taking away something to, oh no, we're offering you something better. We've had an engaging culture in the past, we think this will be even better. How did you roll that out? Then what was the response that you got maybe initially versus where you're at right now?
Matt Northrop:
Sure. What was interesting is we communicated this via email to parents at the beginning of summer. We kept waiting, honestly, as administrators waiting for an angry mob to approach us. We did not receive a single email from a parent that was upset about this policy. In fact, at our new parent orientation a week before school started, it got a huge ovation, the fact that we were making this decision. This is one of those decisions for us that it has had the support of our parents from the get-go.
Part of that is I think parents are starting to see this, and then part of that was probably the way that we communicated this out as far as, again, we're not trying to make their kids miserable. We're not trying to keep them from connecting to their kids. What we are trying to do is have academic conversations, increase community, allow their kids to be able to see each other face-to-face and develop empathy and develop courage and develop curiosity and all of those things that can be difficult to do with a cell phone on their hand. What's interesting too, Jon, is I've had a few kids walk up and they look to their left and they look to their right, make sure no friends are listening and they say, "Thank you, Dr. Northrup, for taking the cell phones away. Even the kids, to some degree, not all of them are happy about this for sure, but to some degree I believe that they're starting to see the difference on campus to have that connection.
Jon:
Did you get resistance from students at the beginning that's now reduced or did you have any of that pushback from them?
Matt Northrop:
Nothing serious. Kind of the adolescent eye roll, probably collective eye roll, but again, even as reminders on campus, the reminder is not, we don't have big cell phones with a red circle and red lines through it. We have the reason why, so we're emphasizing community. We're emphasizing contribution, and we're emphasizing celebration. If your head's not up and your eyes aren't open, you can't do any of those things, and so be available. See those things that you can celebrate on campus, find ways in which you can contribute and then be a part of this community.
Jon:
Love that, love the three Cs there, and it's a positive, not a negative. I think that's remarkable. I think more schools can lean into that in ways that I think would be increasingly life-giving. I was going to say, your school. I've been able to be on your campus several times, and it's one of the more engaging campuses I've ever been on because you have these institutes that connect kids, and you're now fifth through 12th grade or have, you've gone down to fourth?
Matt Northrop:
Fourth through 12th.
Jon:
Fourth through 12th. Fourth through 12th grade, you have this deeply engaged campus where you're moving all over, it feels like a college campus, and kids are entering into these different spaces and doing the work of professionals and they're connected to professionals. You're obviously in a talent-rich environment that you tap into well, so talk a little bit about the way you all think about engagement anyway, even removed from the smartphone conversation. How do you think about that in meaningful ways?
Because I think, let me back that up with one other piece of context, because what you said earlier resonated from what Jonathan Haidt said about the students. He asks about the way technology interferes with their engagement. He asked them his classes, "Is anybody here upset that Netflix is a thing that they're streaming on Netflix?" Everybody's like, "Yeah," Netflix, they love Netflix. Netflix is a win. Then he's asked them, "Does anybody wish that we could go back from social media?" About half of them say they would like that to go away, which I think speaks to kind of the invasive nature of some of the technology where Netflix wants you to give it your attention because it wants you to be on, but it's not this constant clawing at you that I think we all feel even as adults.
When we talk about kids not being able to handle phones, and I would argue most adults can't handle their phones either because it's a multi-billion dollar industry to try to keep our attention. I think you all have acknowledged that, have seen that, but I think better than most schools, you have already built a culture of engagement that already was focused on community, contribution, celebration. Talk a little bit about where you've built that culture and then maybe how this has added to it.
Matt Northrop:
Yeah. There's a couple things that come to mind as I think through community. One is we've, from the very get-go, been very Socratic, especially in our humanities. A normal thing is to walk to campus and you'll see the Socratic circles with a novel out, with scripture out, with a document that they're reading together, asking great questions. I think that has lended itself where the teacher is not the center of the classroom. The discussion is, or an idea is versus the teacher. The teacher typically will sit down with the students in a posture of learning together. I think from the very beginning, Oaks has been a place where scholarly conversation, it's a normal thing for kids who engage in that scholarly conversation.
Jon:
Let me interject there. I did get to see a conversation at your school where they were discussing the things they carry, and there were about 12 students gathered around with a teacher. It was really hard to tell where the teacher was and where the students were, but the conversation was one of my favorite conversations I've ever been able to listen into, so absolutely agree. That was now maybe four years ago?
Matt Northrop:
Five years ago, yeah.
Jon:
Yeah, four or five years. Amazing, so yeah, I can second that. That's a powerful thing that you all do at Oaks.
Matt Northrop:
A special part for sure. Then I think on the other side of things, we also genuinely believe that our students can be contributors to society, to culture now. They don't need to wait until they're 35. with these, we've started five institutes. These are institutes for students. We have about 25% of our kids that are part of one of these. It's for students who are thinking that they may want to be an engineer or they want to be a filmmaker. We have our Institute for Arts Innovation, Institute for Global Leadership, which is Finance and Law, Institute of Engineering, which has our idea lab. We just added Health Sciences Institute and a Bible and Discipleship Institute for kids who want to go deeper into those areas.
It really becomes a highly engaging elective set of offerings. I think one of the things that I love, so maybe just as a story that might help bring this out as far as the engagement is concerned, we had an assignment that was given probably three years ago now to students, and it was just an open-ended develop a, and this was in our engineering institute, develop a water filtration device for an area, geographic area in the world that doesn't have readily access to clean water.
That was the topic, and so they began to work on it, ended up putting together things that I don't completely understand as a history major, but ozone, sand filtration, heat, and there's one more element that they put together into one unit and then found out later that nobody had ever developed a filtration device like this. The next year, they wrote a journal article on it, they began to continue to test it. It was found to be 99.9% effective. That was the second year. Third year is they began to link arms with some of our other institutes of trying to find a way, how do we bring this now to an area of the world that would need this? We're sending a team in October to Freetown, Sierra Leone, where we are bringing some of our global leadership students who are looking to come alongside young businesses that are happening there in ways that we can help and support that they're bringing the water device as well to be able to figure out what we can do there.
Then all of it is being collected for a documentary for social change designed to help bring awareness to both, both to schools as far as things that we can do to help engage our students beyond just book knowledge, but practical knowledge as well. Also, to be able to showcase what kids can do today that can benefit the world when they're 17 years old versus when they're 37 years old. Something to help inspire this generation to be difference makers. It's an example of probably an abnormal one on our campus, but a normal conversation that's happening on our campus on a regular basis.
Jon:
No, and two things that that made me think of from what I've seen on campus, your idea lab, your innovation lab is in a former dog food factory. You've converted into this amazing space where the first time I was there, Jet Propulsion Labs had just been there the day before because they partner with you. I think at the time you were the only high school in the country they would partner with. They typically only partner with universities. There was a conversation going on in that lab about getting water to different parts of the world that were not getting water. It wasn't a filtration thing, it was just how to do a water project. They were white boarding all these things and generating ideas and these really creative problem solving ways with a teacher there that was super animated in what he was doing.
It was also tied into, I think he was going over there some rocketry and telemetry things on one of the boards that I did not understand. Then we walked over to a machine that you have that you had a teacher and a student go get trained on it. It was like a four or five-day training, and he was going to Stanford, I think he was the head of your debate team, and he was trained on this. He talked us through, in detail, this unbelievably complex machine that you had invested time in him so that he could then invest time in students totally a transformational space on so many levels because of the human beings. It wasn't about the tools, it was the way the humans were using the tools. It was amazing. Then I think the next day they were filming a feature length film.
There was a fight scene that was about to happen on campus that the booms were ...
Matt Northrop:
[inaudible 00:15:02].
Jon:
Yes, then it was all staged. It wasn't a real fight but ...
Matt Northrop:
[inaudible 00:15:06].
Jon:
... It's just seeing all that come together in the documentary and the leadership pieces and in the lab and then taking it and using it globally. I mean, again, you don't want smartphones to get in the way and distract from that kind of deeper problem solving that changes students at your school as they seek to serve the world in ways that, I think, most high school students don't have a vision for what that could be because they don't necessarily have those same opportunities to think that way, because the institutes you've built bring in the kind of outside expertise that feeds Oaks and then Oaks can feed back out. Which, I mean, that's pretty powerful. I wish everybody had a chance to just walk around your campus and just see, because I was just there on random days, the times I've been there, it wasn't like anything special was going on that day, it was just, this is just what happens on campus, which was amazing.
Matt Northrop:
Yeah. I do think one of the elements there too is, and you've alluded to it, but finding people in your area, whether it's parents or community members that can help take the kids to the next level in those areas as well. We have advisory councils around each one have been kind of that Wayne Gretzky quote, "You don't just want to skate to where the puck is, but where it's going," and so looking at engineering of where is engineering going? Where is computer science going? Where's leadership going and preparing our kids for that?
Jon:
I love that, and any community can do that. Obviously, you're in a fairly unique place with some of the resources you have in your community, but every community has those resources and it doesn't really have to cost the school anything extra. In fact, it can bring resources with it where people get invested and they see what these high school kids are doing and they're like, "Oh yeah, here's some." I'm sure you have many examples of that. As the community engages your school, both sides benefit.
A couple of questions. These are typically, I do like a lightning round or shorter answer questions, which I'm terrible at answering. I always like to see how well you can do this. Have there been any books that you've read in the last year that you're like, "Yeah, absolutely." Other educators, Anxious Generation, 100%, and you're like, "Yes, everybody needs to read that if you're a parent, educator." We had both of our two oldest children, we had them read it because we're like, "Hey, this is talking about you all," and it was super impactful for them. Any other books you've read that you would recommend to the people listening?
Matt Northrop:
I have loved, we've been walking through with one of our groups, the Ruthless Elimination of Hurry by Jon Mark Comer, The Importance of Solitude and Silence and Sabbath and Slowing Down. I think for all of us, that was challenging then one that I've always loved that we're reading as well as The Power of Moments by Dan or Chip and Dan Heath, that one's an eye-opener and so applicable to so many areas of school.
Jon:
Love both of those books. I also just read Jon Mark Comer's Practicing the Way this year. Super helpful. Good follow up to it. At least this one, he's not just taking Dallas Willard's quote and making it his book title, so that's a win. The Power Moments, the idea of the peak end rule, the idea that the promise of risk-taking is learning. It's not success. How do you do that? How do you build that into your system? Power Moments has been one of my favorite books since that came out in 2017, so hey, I would second both of those. As you look ahead at schools in general, what do you see as the biggest challenge to engaging kids? You've removed smartphones, that's key. You've got these things going on, but what do you see as the biggest challenge to engaging kids?
Matt Northrop:
That's a good question. I'd say one of the things that I am starting to see, and I guess it surrounds the AI conversation, and I think we're all trying to figure out as educators, where does AI fit? We've been taking a look at it as well. I think one of the things that we're trying to do is making sure that that is exaggerating the humanness of relationship and community where AI is. There was just that recent article of a UK school that is now teacherless and completely driven by AI.
We're certainly not a school that runs away from technology, but I think that has a profound impact on education, on making sure that we're engaging our students. I hope we're not walking away from humanness altogether. I think as we look at AI to remember the impact that a teacher has in a classroom of kids of that face-to-face, eyeball-to-eyeball, wrestling with big ideas, having those conversations that are all unique to each class period and not getting to the point where we're letting AI teach our kids. I think that's a dangerous spot. Nor do I really think that that really engages young people either.
Jon:
Everything you've talked about so far on this podcast could be potentially aided by artificial intelligence, but it could not be done with artificial intelligence. I love that exaggerating the humanness of school. If you've read any of Cal Newport's stuff, he wrote Deep Work and then he just came out with a book, Slow Productivity, his claim, and he's a computer science MIT grad professor at Georgetown. He makes a living in the world of artificial intelligence and computers. He said, "What will become increasingly valuable in the decades ahead, wherever the world goes, is the more human our contribution is, because that's where our value is in our humanness. What are you uniquely capable of offering the world if you're able to articulate that and obsess over quality, doing less things at a natural pace?" Ruthless Elimination of Hurry ties in nicely there. That's the value you have. How do we help kids see what they've been created to be and what they contribute?
Obviously, tools can help with that, but they will not replace that because AI, I always say this, this is from Darren Speaksma, it's consensus. That's all it is. It's scraping large language models. It's consensus. It is not wisdom and it can't be wisdom. There are things like if you're writing a paper, there are things where AI is super helpful for checking and fixing, but if it's generating, I don't want to read something generated by AI. One of my worst nightmares is that AI-generated emails will begin to fill up my email box to the point where I feel like I need AI-generated responses and it's just AI talking to AI, and I'm just this third party looking on at this nightmare. To me, how do we keep, I totally agree on exaggerating the humanness of what we do because that's the joy in schools. All right, so then what do you see as your biggest hope for engaging students well? I mean, I think you all are doing a lot of this really well. What would you say your biggest hope is?
Matt Northrop:
I think my largest hope is in the things that I'm seeing, and I know you're seeing in different Christian schools and different schools around the world, I think that we're getting to a place, as I look around, there's just so much hope in so many schools with amazing educators and leaders that are doing phenomenal things. Both with the hand in who we have been and who we've been as teachers and mentors for centuries. Yet also ,a hand in where is the world going and how do we continue to prepare our kids for a future that we don't know? I think I'm hopeful for these types of conversations. I'm hopeful for us as schools to become less siloed, maybe less competitive at times, and to be able to learn from one another and those unique things that we all bring to a conversation. There's still yet a school to visit where I haven't learned something from that school that I can pretty much immediately take back to Oaks. I think that's where the hope is, I guess, collaboration with one another and learning from one another.
Jon:
That's the whole reason why the Baylor Center for School Leadership exists. We try to bring schools together to do this work of improvement because we can always get better and it's a lot more fun to get better with each other. If you get a chance to visit Oaks Christian, you have to do it. The good thing is we have nothing to be afraid of in the future because we serve a sovereign God and He's not worried about the future and that victory is already done. When your eternity is all set, what happens between now and when we get to heaven, that's all just an adventure that we get to enjoy and create powers of moments and ruthlessly eliminate hurry and practice following Christ in ways that make us more like Him. It's a pretty good work that we get to do. Matt, thanks for all you do. Thanks for being on today.
Matt Northrop:
Thanks, Jon.
-
In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Dr. Janet Gibson, an experienced educator and leader at Baylor University. They discuss the importance of conflict resolution in education and how to equip leaders with the tools needed to navigate challenges effectively. Dr. Gibson shares insights from her extensive background in school administration and her current role in directing Baylor’s executive EdD program. The conversation also highlights the significance of maintaining a student-centered approach and the power of cultivating hope within school communities.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Join us on October 15th at the Hurd Welcome Center for an in-person information session to hear more about the MA in School Leadership and the EdD in K-12 Educational Leadership. This is a free event but we need you to register here: https://app.e2ma.net/app2/audience/signup/2003682/1973032/ Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipEdD in K-12 Educational LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Transcript:
Jon Eckert:
Welcome back to the Just Schools podcast. Today we are here with Dr. Janet Gibson, who is an amazing educator and is a great colleague here at Baylor. We've been able to work together full-time for the last year. I've learned a ton from Dr. Gibson, so I'm excited for her to be here today. So Dr. Gibson, when you decided to come to Baylor, you had a lot of experience that brought you to that point. So can you give us a quick, here's where I've been and this is why I'm now here at Baylor?
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Yeah, sure. Well, first off, thanks for having me. But yeah, so my background just started out as an educator in special education, and then quickly went into administration. And so I spent probably about, I would say 15 plus years in administration where I was a middle school assistant principal, elementary principal, high school principal, and then I went into central administration. And all of that experience was kind of in the Dallas-Fort Worth area in various sizes of school districts. And I was an assistant superintendent, not that exact title, but that was the role, in a very large district right outside of the Dallas area. Spent several years doing that. And then my last experience was in a suburban district in the Dallas-Fort Worth area where I was assistant superintendent.
And in those roles I had lots of experience covering curriculum instruction, supervising principals, and all of those experiences have led me to Baylor, led me to that opportunity. Obviously when you are a principal or you're an assistant superintendent, and even in one of the districts, I was an interim superintendent, that gave me lots of opportunities for... What word would I use here? Opportunities, I guess would just be the best word to describe it, to have different experiences, whether it's with students, whether it's with teachers, parents, other educators. Just different opportunities that I think right now in what we do here at Baylor just lends itself well to be that practitioner that is giving those types of things back to our students. So when I left public ed after 27 years in public ed, I spent a year working for Engaged to Learn.
Jon Eckert:
That's great.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
And I coached educators around the United States, not just in Texas, so around the United States, and worked mainly with central office educators, in coaching them. And that experience, even just getting out of Texas really lends itself well to what we do here at Baylor and coaching those that are coming up in education, those that are going to be leading districts. And so that really just lends itself well to what we were doing here at Baylor. And what brought me to Baylor was just I think the Lord's blessing me in that because I never really thought I would have that opportunity to be at Baylor. And so I really just feel like it's just been a great blessing to be here and have those experiences from my past in the various different roles that have just really blessed me to be here at Baylor.
Jon Eckert:
Well, what I love about the role you're in now is the director of our executive EDD program is you started off as a special ed teacher, and I feel like those people are gold because you know how to see each student. Because that's what you're trained to do as a special ed teacher, and that never goes away. And so you then had all these other lenses to look at education from school level to district level, then coaching across the country and out here at Baylor, but you never lose sight of that individual student. And you do that for our doctoral students. I know they reach out to you when they have personal needs, they have other things because you see the whole human being. And so I think that's unbelievable preparation and the people listening won't know. But I was on three different search committees, I think in the year we eventually hired you, and I wanted to hire you for all three positions.
So I was like, "Which one of these is the best fit?" And I think the Lord knew the best fit. And so in our doctoral program, you teach a conflict resolution class, and you've now done that for a few years, because even before we'd hired you full-time you were doing that. And you've had obviously in 27 years in K through 12 and then coaching administrators all over the country, you have plenty of opportunities to engage in conflict. And there's a lot of growth that happens through conflict, but most of us want to avoid it. And I feel like I've gotten to sit in on some of your training when we've had educators in, and I've heard about your classes. But if you were to say, "Hey, here are two or three takeaways for those people listening, whether they're teachers or administrators, here are some things, always lean into this." What would you share with them?
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Gosh, that's a great question. Well, conflict is inevitable. We can't get away from conflict. And so it's really just ensuring you have a tool kit available to you when you are dealing with conflict. And so throughout my class, I really try to give them different lenses to look at the conflict and different ways to handle that conflict. And so I bring in different guest speakers where they can hear how they have handled conflict throughout the years. And you mentioned my experiences with conflict. One of the districts that I was in dealt with a tremendous amount of conflict in that district.
And I bring some of those stories to my class not to expose, but to share and so that the students can learn from those experiences. And so the other thing is the Bible is the best learning tool. And so we really talk a lot about the different stories in the Bible where there was so much conflict, but yet this is where you can lean into the answers for how to solve conflict. And so I hope throughout what my answer here, that I gave you the three answers there is that it doesn't go away. It's inevitable. Have your toolkit available. And the best places to find those answers is the Bible. And so those are the things that I try to share with the students.
Jon Eckert:
So you just encapsulated to me the beauty of an executive EDD program at a place like Baylor. So you have the theory behind what it is. You certainly have read a lot. You can apply theoretical approaches, which you would get in a PhD program. You have the applied experience of here's what I've been through and here's, I'm sure, what you're going through. And it's not, here's what I did, now you should do this. It's grounded in biblical wisdom. That is this ancient understanding of how human beings work.
And being able to do that at a place like Baylor, that's the blessing of being at a research one university where you can be explicit about that. Because you and I spent most of our careers before higher ed, all of our careers in public schools where you could do all that implicitly, but you couldn't come out and say, "And here's why." And so that to me is the value of being in a place like Baylor because they get that experience, they get that theory, but then they also can get this explicit grounding in why we do what we do. And there's great hope in that.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Absolutely.
Jon Eckert:
So that really gets to the next question. Talk a little bit about what we get to do at Baylor and the kinds of students that we get to serve, because that's why we're here. They're doing the hard work, we're coming alongside and trying to give them tools, questions, processes to do that work better. But talk a little bit about what you've found in this year doing this full-time now.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Yeah, so one of the best things we get to do is we get to recruit highly, highly qualified educators to come and be a part of our program. And so we get to do that and recruit a new cohort every year to come in. And then once they're here, we really get to... and the cohort model is the key, is that they move throughout our three-year program. And we try to have for us in the EDD and also for the master's program, it's a cohort model as well. But we move them through in that cohort model, through the program. And we have full-time professors and we have adjunct professors that are practitioners. So they've been in the seats that our students are in, but then also are the researchers as well.
And so they have the best, most highly qualified professors in front of them that are giving them, just like you described, the theory, all of those things, the practical things as well. But we have that biblical experience that we can talk to them about, but they get to engage in so many practical activities and lessons. They get to go on field trips and see different districts and how different districts are engaging in the different topics that we're discussing in our classes. And I believe just this cohort model and being in-person, and that's the other key to our program, is that it's in-person. I think that lends itself to being so important because they're engaged with each other, they're engaged with their professors. And I think that's what makes our program special. And because it's smaller numbers as well, we know our students, not just who they are as a student, but who they are as a person.
I mean, we know if they're going through trials at home, if they're going through trials at work, we know what is going on. And I think that's important where sometimes in larger cohorts or organizations and things like that, or even online, you don't know. You don't have as much of that personal touch. And I think we have that, and I think that's what makes our program special. So as our students move through, they get to engage in that. And then of course we have our clinical experience that I think is outstanding where our students get to go through a mentorship with myself as their clinical leader here at Baylor, but a mentor back at their home district where they can really engage in some very thoughtful, practical experiences that can benefit them as they increase their leadership experience.
Jon Eckert:
Well, in the last year that you've been here, I don't know how many coffees, breakfast, prayer times, crying times that you've engaged with our students, but it's been such a huge blessing to our students. They talk about it all the time, and so huge asset there. And I think the size of the cohort matters because if you get stretched too thin, you can't do it. And one of our former colleagues, Bradley Carpenter, would always recruit the 12. And so we would always shoot for 12 in our cohorts. And I was always like, "It sounds like we're picking disciples here." I was like, "No, we're not doing that. We're all following Christ, we're not trying to." But there is something about that. And now with the master's program and the EDD, our master's program, we bring in about 35 to 40 master's students a year.
Now, a third of this cohort eight in the EDD are from the master's program. And that's beautiful because we get 18 months to try to orient them to what improvement science looks like. And so we're going to ask them to do a lot of work in the EDD program. They're going to do a dissertation. But what I always say is, while it's a lot of work, it's better work, and it's all grounded in what they're doing in their schools anyway, so that when they finish the program and they finish that dissertation, it doesn't just go sit on a shelf. They use that in their next job interview. They use that to say, "Hey, here's the work that is different because of what the Lord's done through me in the lives of kids." And if they're doing that in public school, it's just like, "Hey, look how much growth has happened here among teachers, among administrators, among kids."
And that's the beautiful thing about the way the EDD is set up. It's not trying to fill a hole in the literature. It's not some really esoteric, narrow thing that allows you to go into academia and write papers that five people read. It actually makes a difference in the lives of kids. And we get to see that. And especially you get to see that in the clinical piece. So you go out and see our students there. What have been some of the more hopeful things that you seen out when you've been out doing clinical visits? Where have you seen like, "Oh wow, that's amazing. These are the students that we see." Can you think of anything off the top of your head? Anything specific or general?
Dr. Janet Gibson:
I can. So in particular this year, one of our students worked with a smaller district near here, and she created a product through the clinical experience for this district. That without that mentorship, without that partnership and that clinical experience, the district would've never come out with that product. And it was an MTSS handbook.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, wow.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
MTSS is a requirement for our students to have experiences with in the public schools and have exposure to. And that district just didn't have the capacity to create that. And she created that for them. And in her observation, the last observation that I was there for, that district had shared it with other surrounding districts that they are a part of because they're, again, a smaller district. And about six other districts are going to be modeling their handbook after that. And so that wasn't just the one little district, that spread out too. And so you think about the exponential touch that just that one product had for... That's going to be impacting students because MTSS is that tiered model, that leveled model of support for students. And it just started with one student and one superintendent in one district, and now it's impacting several other districts.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, that's the definition of a catalyst. An agent that provokes or speeds up change without being used up. So that work that she did, hard work, created this product that then made other people's work easier to better serve the needs of each kid. I was just out last week with Christina Flores, I didn't know this, she's known as C-Flow, so in Riesel. And she had done several days of professional development with all of her campus leaders, and I got to do kind of the wrap-up piece of it. But it was so amazing to see the work they were doing in a small district in central Texas, but really good work in her dissertation was going to be amazing work. I get to be her dissertation chair. So when we get to chair these dissertations, you walk alongside this person for a couple years and you get to see from the idea to the implementation to the evidence what difference it makes. And so it's pretty cool to see that. And then when you see it going beyond that one district to other districts, it makes what we do feel like it's worthwhile.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Yeah, for sure.
Jon Eckert:
So that's good. So if you were to, in three or four sentences, describe what you see in Texas, in education, Texas or in the country, how would you describe what you're seeing as a leader in education going on in public schools, private schools, whatever you've seen?
Dr. Janet Gibson:
I see right now a shift happening. As I exited public ed, there was a shift happening as well, but it was kind of a negative shift happening. There was a lot of political, just a lot of divisiveness happening in schools around the country, those kinds of things that were happening. And right now, I really honestly see this uptick, this positive shift happening, and it gives me a lot of hope. And what I'm seeing with our students, and I know you said three to four sentences and I'm saying a whole lot more.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's all right. I'm terrible at this as well. So that's just a try.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Okay, thanks. I see students that are wanting to be our next leaders that have so much passion in what they do and what they believe in in what is happening in our schools, that it just gives me so much hope in this shift of just this next generation of leaders. And so I do, I just see this uptick in this positivity of what's happening in public ed in particular.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. So in one sentence, the year ahead, what do you hope this year will look like? If you can put it can be a run-on sentence if you want it to be.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Good. Thank you.
Jon Eckert:
But go for it.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
And so I'm going to focus on our students. I hope our students are able to let their passion shine in their schools because I think, and this is where my run-on is going to be, because I think they've tried to hide and been afraid because of that turmoil that had been happening, have been afraid to let that passion shine. And so my hope is that they let their lights shine this year and their passion shine.
Jon Eckert:
Love that. Love that. I think I know what this might be, but if you had to use one word to describe the next year, what would be the word that you believe would best represent the next year?
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Hopeful.
Jon Eckert:
Okay. And it sounds like given your answer, you see evidence of that. That's not a naive optimism that that hope's back. And that is one of the blessings of being in the position we're in. We get to see districts and schools and leaders all over the place. So when you're in your own district or in your own school or you're in your own classroom, sometimes you get myopic and you only see... and you see amazing things up close, but then you don't see the landscape. And I do think you're right. I think we have hit a transition point where there is more hope, now that's fragile.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Absolutely.
Jon Eckert:
We can crush it really quickly and we're going to have conflict.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
For sure.
Jon Eckert:
Again, hope doesn't mean freedom from conflict. We're going to have it. It's going to be there. So I'm really grateful for the work that you do and the work that we get to support together, because again, our jobs are only meaningful if the people we serve are doing meaningful work with real kids. So thanks for all you do, and thanks for being here.
Dr. Janet Gibson:
Well, I'm blessed to be here. Thank you for having me.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Dr. Tami Dean. They discuss the importance of restorative practices in schools and how these practices can create a more inclusive and supportive environment for students and staff. Dr. Dean shares insights from her experience in implementing these practices and highlights the significance of building strong relationships within the school community. The conversation also touches on strategies for overcoming challenges when introducing restorative practices and emphasizes the impact of these approaches on school culture.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Books Mentioned:For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood... and the Rest of Y'all Too: Reality Pedagogy and Urban Education (Race, Education, and Democracy) by Christopher EmdinThe Defining Decade: Why Your Twenties Matter--And How to Make the Most of Them Now by Meg JaySupercommunicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection by Charles DuhiggHow to Know a Person: The Art of Seeing Others Deeply and Being Deeply Seen by David BrooksConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Transcription:
Jon Eckert:
Welcome back to the Just Schools podcast. Today we are here with Dr. Tami Dean, who is a new friend to me, but she is friends with Dr. Gabrielle Wallace, who is one of Baylor's finest doctoral students and graduates. She was the connection here. So, anybody that Gabrielle recommends, we all should get to know. So, you run Dragonfly Rising LLC. So, I'm really curious about the name and why you started this organization.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, yeah, I know because Dragonfly Rising has nothing to do with equity, and that's exactly what Dragonfly Rising does. It support equity and education. How I came to do Dragonfly Rising? Well, that's a huge backstory, but essentially my entire educational career has been focused on social justice and equity and education. I hit a crossroads in my career, and I also lost my sister shortly before I started this company. So, it was just one of those things where the life just all happens and here it was born. So, I debated for a long time about the name, whether to go with this, and I had actually some divine intervention from an unknown party, and I actually feel like this is how God speaks to me all the time. He sends someone to say something to me. So, I was talking to someone, I was totally unexpected, and I had been playing with the word Dragonfly and Rising because they really speak to me, so hence the name.
So, Dragonfly actually connects with colon cancer. My sister was 42, she passed away from colon cancer, and the Dragonfly is a symbol of your loved one just being around and still with you, even though they've left, they're still here and they make their presence known. So, the Dragonfly is for her and honoring her because she would be very proud and super excited about this. Then Rising connects to my own personal, just life, overcome lots of challenges. "Still I rise," Maya Angelou, who's my mantra, if you want to call it that. So, hence the name Dragonfly Rising, coming together. So, even the colors, right? Yellow is my favorite, green's my sister's, and blue is the colon cancer. So, even our logo brings all of us together, and I really actually feel equities about relationships and getting to know people and what a better name? I can always explain it. It's a great story. I believe in the power of narrative, so...
Jon Eckert:
No, that's great. So, what's the primary focus of your work at Dragonfly Rising? I love the name, by the way.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Thank you. Our primary role is to support educators, educational leaders with implementing social justice, diversity, equity, inclusion, really looking, examining those systems, building in resources for how to support teachers. So, I do coaching, consulting, and speaking around those topics to just help support an equitable learning environment for all students.
Jon Eckert:
So, right now, in the current culture we're in, things get super polarized over things. Even a lot of the words that you just said, you said 'belonging' originally, and even that word I've heard people say, "Oh, well, 'belonging', what is this?" I went recently to a UNESCO conference on inclusive education because 250 million kids worldwide are school age and not in school. So, it's about literally trying to educate each kid, it's so that they have the access to education. When I told someone I was going to a UNESCO conference on inclusive education, somebody was like, "Well, that sounds pretty left to me." I was like, "No, it's trying to educate each kid." He's like, "Oh, okay. So, it's not that DEI, I in DEI." So, what boggles my mind is, as educators, our whole goal is to create a culture and climate of belonging for each student.
Why is that controversial? That's always been a little bit of a rub for me. So, how do you cut through some of that noise to get to the relational piece you mentioned that is at the heart of teaching, that it's seeing and knowing and helping a child become all that he or she was created to be in this powerful way, without getting hung up in all the politics of that?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Wow, that's a huge question.
Jon Eckert:
Yes, yes.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think one of the most important things you said was the relational piece, because really, inclusivity and belonging is about taking the time and the opportunity to really listen and understand and value each person as an individual. So, what that moves away from is stereotypes, implicit biases. So, even the idea of this idea like, "Oh, that's very leftist." You've already made a judgment around what this means. I agree, it's super polarized, it's super political, and it really shouldn't be because, to me, diversity, equity, and inclusion is about humanity and being a conscientious and thoughtful human to the other humans with which I'm engaging. None of us respond well when people make negative assumptions about us. So, I guess the way I break through the noise is by really listening to people and having an open dialogue and conversation. Versus it's not about chastising. It's not about, "You're wrong, I'm right."
It's really about how do we listen and come together as humans to value the individuality of each and every one of us. That includes our students and seeing them and recognizing that actually seeing people and listening to them for who they are is actually really essential and key and important.
Jon Eckert:
Right. So, it's an innate human desire to be seen, known, and loved, and we communicate love through seeing and knowing, and it's why teaching is infinitely interesting and also really hard because in a room of 30 learners, if you're the teacher in that room, the only thing for sure is no one in that room learns exactly the way you do. So, that makes it so that it's challenging, but also really, it never gets boring. We always have meaningful work to do as educators.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
So, that's the blessing and challenge of what we do. So, as you've done this work, or some of your previous work in schools, what's the most hopeful insight you've had as we move forward? We already highlighted some of the polarizing and the othering that goes on and not seeing other, and trying to separate ourselves, but what's the most hopeful insight you've had?
Dr. Tami Dean:
I think what's most hopeful for me is I see that people want to do better. They want to know more. They want to engage differently. They're wanting to be reflective of their own self. So, I'm hopeful, because there are people, despite some of the challenges, still trying to find ways to move through and do this very important work and connect with students and build culturally responsive learning environments, and they're doing all these things and they're using their voices. Because there's power in the collective of us all saying, "This is what's great for students. This is what is great for teachers." If you're an administrator, you need to set up that environment for your educators too.
Jon Eckert:
Right. So, many administrators will say, "We need to see each student. We need to serve each student," but then we're not seeing and serving each educator. If you don't have flourishing adults in a building, you're not going to have a flourishing community of learners. So, how do you bring those things together? Again, that's the beauty of leadership is seeing and knowing and loving and encouraging and catalyzing the people in your organization. So, that includes educators and students. So, I think sometimes we can have blind spots where we see certain students or we see certain educators, we don't see others, or we see students and we don't see educators, or we see educators and we don't see students, when in fact we are called to see each person. Again, that's the beauty of the relational piece that you're talking about. So, as you think about that, that's the most hopeful insight you have. What's the biggest challenge you see to doing that? Because I think that's at the heart of what we do as educators. So, what's the biggest challenge to doing that?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think the biggest challenge, honestly, is we have a whole bunch of people that aren't educators trying to tell educators how to educate.
Jon Eckert:
That is a nice succinct statement. So, I can say having been at the US department of Ed in two different administrations, that that was a frustration many times in the book that I just wrote last year starts off with this story about a leader in one of the administrations, which will not be named. I was in a Democratic and Republican administration. So, I'm not throwing anyone under the bus here.
Dr. Tami Dean:
You're not throwing any shade?
Jon Eckert:
No, no. But she talked about how we needed to de-complexify things for educators, and that's not a word. I said, "Do you mean simplify?" She said, "Well, yeah." So, this federal bureaucrat, I tell this story all the time and I've told it on this podcast. She said, "Well, we just need to de-complexify these things." So, she had complicated the word for simplify in a condescending way for educators, and that's the thing that drives educators crazy. Now, certainly, we get very myopic. We see the classroom that we have, the kids that we have, we see those needs. We don't see the 30,000-foot view, but you can't get the 30,000-foot view if you don't also have that classroom view, if you don't see each kid. So, you don't want to miss the forest for the trees, but you also don't want to miss the trees for the forest.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
So, the way you do that is through relationship. So, how do we do a better job building relationships? This is a societal challenge right now, but how do we do a better job building relationships between educators, researchers, policy makers, community members, students, and educators working together? How do we do that better? Do you have, what's your best recommendation or two or three ideas, how we could do a better job of that?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I just really wonder when are we really listening, and I'm going to come back to listening. When are we really listening to the different perspectives from all of those parties and bringing them together to talk about the nuance of what happens? Because we tend to work in silos and think we're doing great things. At one point, I was a professor working in academia, and the biggest people say, "Oh, you're in a silo and you're never in schools." But the research that's happening in higher ed institutions is really important and informs, or should inform what's happening in schools, but they can't happen in isolation. Then you listen to business owners and they're saying, "We need people that can be creative and think and find answers and solve problems." But then you have another layer saying, "We're going to have all these standardized tests that don't actually have people doing that," and then we have these tech prep.
So, there's not a vision for, what is it that makes a great education in the United States? So, if we come together and... We need a vision statement, we need a strategic plan really for education in a way that aligns and listens to all of these perspectives. Now, I don't think that's easy, but I do think that's what we need, because all of those perspectives are valid and bring in a different perspective to get us to a better whole picture, because what we're doing right now isn't working.
Jon Eckert:
Right, right. No, that's well said. I do think I've read two books in the last six months that were super helpful on listening, and I'm curious if you've come across them, but 'How to Know a Person' by David Brooks, and he says, the whole point of knowing someone is through conversation. You can have nonverbal communication and you can do things with people, but we really know someone by listening well. Then the second book, which is more on the neuroscience side of it, less on the relational soulful side, which is where David Brooks, there would be more of a metaphysical piece to it, as well is Charles Duhigg's book, 'The Super Communicators', and it's the people that do this well that are amazing at matching other people's conversational style, being able to elicit stories, share stories.
Christopher Emden writes about it 'For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood... And the Rest of Y'all Too', where he talks about barbers who are so good at eliciting stories, and he has his pre-service teachers learn from barbers about how you elicit stories. So, I'm curious to know if you're seeing any research out there that really helps educators, because the three books, one of those was for educators, the other two is just for general population folks, thinking about how you just get to know people better, relationally. How do you think educators can listen better to each other and their students? Do you have any quick practical tips that you've seen work, other than just really be genuinely curious, which is hard to force someone to do, how do we do that?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think number one, you need to check your assumption and your bias.
Jon Eckert:
Okay.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Because unintentionally, and I actually talk about this a lot, I think teachers come with the best intention, based on my historical knowledge as an educator in students that I've had and can make assumptions about a certain student's story and whether that student looks like me or not, or comes from a similar background than me. We make assumptions. So, checking that bias and coming with a clean slate of really paying attention, noticing and naming what the student's doing and listening to what he or she has to say and allowing them opportunities to have voice in your classroom. Because if you're the only one speaking, if you're the only one asking questions, then you're really not getting to the heart of being able to get to know the students in your room.
Jon Eckert:
No, it's so well said. I think the best teachers are the ones who are genuinely curious and really know that the classroom is not about them. It's about what their students are doing. So, I do think there are some inherent pieces that some people come to more naturally, but if you're not naturally curious about someone, you need to find things to become curious about. So, how can you not be curious about middle school kids and what's going on in their heads? How can you not?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, they're the best. I always think they get a bad rap. I taught middle school for a while, but if you don't know, take a tool, find a resource, do an identity web, what do they say about themselves? But I will say part of this is you have to be a little bit vulnerable and share a little bit of yourself, as well, because students know when you're being authentic or not just like any other person, I say this all the time, right? Students are just smaller humans. They're just younger. They enjoy and want the same things we do as adults. They're still figuring it out. I mean, shoot, adults are still figuring it out, to be honest, but...
Jon Eckert:
True.
Dr. Tami Dean:
A hundred percent right? But be a little bit vulnerable and share a little bit about yourself. Don't got to tell them your whole life story, but if you share a little bit, you're building trust.
Jon Eckert:
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Tami Dean:
So, trust is an important piece of this equation because it builds an opportunity for honesty and bring your humanity. I always say, "Bring into your classroom and bring the joy," because no one wants to be in a boring environment.
Jon Eckert:
Brown really punches me in the gut every time I read that, "I want to trust someone and then be vulnerable." But she makes it very clear, vulnerability comes before trust. You don't know if you can trust until you've been there. It's a very biblical principle. If we know that we hold this treasure in jars of clay, that we are broken individuals, then there is an obvious vulnerability to everyone else. So, why do we try so hard to try to hide it? So, when we have that appropriate self-disclosure, that then elicits it back, because people learn more from us through our mistakes and our weaknesses than they do from us trying to present some put together. We've got it all figured out because we all know, I'm old enough to know that that's a foolish narrative. So, really, really helpful wisdom there. So, I always wrap up with a lightning round where I ask three or four questions that we try to answer in a word, phrase, or sentence. So, what is something you think every educator should know?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think every educator should know that students want to learn and parents want their students to learn.
Jon Eckert:
So, you've already mentioned the loss of your sister. You've mentioned some of the challenges you've been through, but is, if you were just to give us a nugget, what's a challenge that you personally have overcome or at least have made significant progress on, if not fully overcome?
Dr. Tami Dean:
I think not taking people's responses to your authenticity, personally.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, that's impressive if you've gotten there, that's a tough one
Dr. Tami Dean:
That would be not all the time, I've just made some progress, but, yes.
Jon Eckert:
Okay. Okay. What are you most excited about in education right now?
Dr. Tami Dean:
I think I'm most excited about... Just there's always opportunity. There's always opportunity for change, for growth. I am excited about what I'm seeing, coming out of teenagers and how they think and are engaging just with the world and using their voice.
Jon Eckert:
Well, on that note, and I'm not supposed to add tangents, but I have to because I was just listening to Meg Jay talk 'Who Wrote the Defining Decades'. She writes about people in their twenties, and so right now, Gen Z. It was Millennials, Gen Z gets bashed for being Gen Z. She said, "It's not about the group that they're associated with. It's about that time period in life. In our 20s, we are much more egocentric, because nothing is certain for us. Everything's in flux. Even though your 20s are great, there's a low point on this happiness curve where the J-curve goes down. It starts going down in middle school and high school and doesn't start going back up until the end of your 20s where you start to have some certainty."
I think that's a really helpful reminder that we need to give people grace and know that, "Hey, life is not easy, and it's not about being entitled or these other things. It's just being in your 20s is hard. Being in middle school is hard." I was always amazed at how kids showed up for me in middle school, because I remember middle school as a kid, and I hated it. For eight years, I avoided teaching it My last four of what I call real teaching were in middle school, and they were amazing, and we need to give them credit. So, I too am excited about where things are headed with some of the ways kids are thinking about things now.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Yeah, that was actually my first teaching job, was in middle school, and I didn't want it at all, but it turned out to be amazing. So, teach middle school, y'all.
Jon Eckert:
That's it. That's it. That's it. So, other than that, what's the best advice you would either... You have two options here, the best advice you would give to our listeners or the best advice you've ever received? Or maybe it's one and the same?
Dr. Tami Dean:
Well, I think the best advice I would give is to show up as your authentic self, because there is only one you in the world, and the perspective and experience you bring is valuable. So, when you show up and bring that, great things happen.
Jon Eckert:
Such a good reminder. I would add only to that, don't try to be cool. You will fail miserably with your middle school kids. They will see right through it. But they do appreciate the authentic quirky weirdness. I was like, "Find your quirky." What's quirky about you? Because they be quirky, too. By you making sure that's okay, then they too can bring that. Life gets a lot more interesting that way.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Oh, definitely. I've embraced my nerdiness for sure.
Jon Eckert:
Love it. Well, that's why I appreciate talking to people like you. So, thank you so much for your time, Tami. We appreciate all you do.
Dr. Tami Dean:
Thank you for having me.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Dr. Bobby Ott, superintendent of Temple ISD and 2022 Texas Superintendent of the Year. They discuss integrating mental health services, special education needs, and innovative teaching practices.Dr. Ott highlights the importance of developing a mental health services model in schools, addressing funding and expertise limitations. He also stresses retaining specialized teachers and improving preparatory models for special education and English language learner programsAdditionally, the conversation explores AI and technology's potential to transform education, advocating for proactive leadership to enhance personalized learning and prevent misuse.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Books Mentioned:Brave New Words by Sal Khan1000 CEOs by Andrew DavidsonConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Transcription:
Jon Eckert:
So today we're here with Bobby Ott, the superintendent of Temple ISD. He's the 2022 Superintendent of the Year for the state of Texas and a good friend of Baylor and our program. He always has a lot of wisdom to share. And so today we're going to talk a little bit about some of the challenges that he sees facing students in Temple and Texas in general and maybe just across the country because many of these issues transcend different places. Certainly they're context-specific, but broader issues. And Bobby has a pretty good handle on what's going on in Texas and has a wide network. So we're grateful to have Bobby here today. So Bobby, thanks for all you do. Just tell us a little bit about what you've been dealing with the last month or so. We'll roll in with that first and then jump into those bigger questions. But can you just update us on your world over the last month?
Bobby Ott:
Well, the last couple weeks for sure has been a little bit of a whirlwind, and I guess that's both figuratively and literally. But as you may know, we had three tornadoes in Temple touch down within about a 30-mile radius. And so the community really looked apocalyptic when you drove through it. Some places you couldn't drive because of debris. And of course we still had a week and a half of school left, so that caused some challenges at the 11th hour. But having a great team and a great community, number one, we were truly blessed to not have a single fatality in a natural disaster of that magnitude. So that was first and foremost. And as I shared earlier with others, to me that is certainly a divine hand being involved in that. I have never heard of a situation that had that type of catastrophe and not have a fatality.
But I did send a video out, kind of a peek behind the curtain of the things we had to plan for, and we were able to make it through the last week. We were able to meet the bureaucratic requirements, which in my mind are secondary compared to the human elements of graduation, kids being in a safe environment, staff feeling safe, displaced staff having a place to be and so forth. And so now we were able to make it through that. The stress level has gone way down. And at this point, I'm just dealing with insurance adjusters and trying to figure out how to close out a budget year with deductible payments that I didn't expect to have.
But anyway, we're working through it. The community is slowly getting back to normal and just blessed to have the partnerships that we do in the community and just the great hands and hearts that work together and pull together to get everybody through.
Jon Eckert:
No, and the video you shared was powerful because as we prepare superintendents and principals at Baylor, we try to help them anticipate every eventuality. You've taught in that. We have a number of sitting superintendents that teach in that. But until you've been through something like that, it's really hard to know what that looks like. And so I thought the video was helpful just as you went over the board and what's there.
As we talk today, I want to focus in on student-centered issues that you see. Obviously, your point about the divine providence that comes in and keeps people safe in a natural disaster, that's real. There are day in, day out challenges that our kids face and resilience that they have to display and community support that they need to be successful. And so you're talking to us as we launch Cohort 8 of our EDD that's preparing superintendents. And so they're going to do three years of research on a problem of practice that they care deeply about that matters in the context they're in.
And so what I'm interested in is hearing from superintendents about two or three of the biggest issues you see that need attention in the research, in data collection, but really in the practical day in and day out of how do we make life better for students? How do we do that in a way that's life-giving, that leads to flourishing, and makes sure that we're moving forward in useful ways when you're not dealing with insurance adjusters and all the budget pieces, which are real. And those have to be dealt with, otherwise you can't serve kids well.
But if you were to say, "Hey, these are the two or three things that I see." That as people think about what they might research and dedicate three years of their lives to research-wise, what would come to mind as you think about that right now?
Bobby Ott:
And this certainly isn't in rank order, but one would be a true model of integrating. And when I say model, something that's repeatable that you could replicate in any district size, but a true model for integrating mental health services in a school district.
I got to be honest with you, every year when we're sitting down as a group of superintendents, whether it's countywide or regionwide, there's always this discussion about how to truly integrate mental health services in a school system. And several districts have tried different things. They've tried some co-op services. They've tried to hire on regular counselors and get them trained in certain things and then they peel off.
But there's two limitations that we find ourselves in a lot of times, and one is expertise. Rightly or wrongly, school counselors a lot of times do not have that level of expertise that we're talking about. They maybe have a general background in how to work those issues, in particular social, but the mental health pieces we find some real limitations and expertise. And then of course funding because truth be told, people that have that level of expertise make more money outside of public schools and the private sector is far more attractive and pays a lot better.
So what we find ourselves doing is trying to find retirees from the private sector, people that only want to work part-time, people that really like the schedule of public schools. But people that are experts in that field could stand to make more money than the principal of the campus for sure. And so it just becomes very, very difficult.
There are some very specialized skills that are required to do those kinds of things. And counselors that come out of the traditional school education track they're really equipped only to a certain line and our students are needing beyond the line. And when they try to seek outside support, a lot of times the students that have those needs do not have the resources to secure the outside support, whether it's monetary or accessibility with parents being able to get them where they need to go and so forth.
So I think one, so what does that look like in terms of research? When you told me about this, I try to think about it in two lenses. One, what would be the problem? And maybe what is a approach in terms of resource or research? And I would say researching models to embed specialized counseling services, trauma-informed care, restorative practices, cognitive therapy into credentialing for counselors in their traditional track programs. Maybe therapy-specific coursework, maybe there's a way.
I think we're trying to address the problem after people are certified, but I wonder if there are models that can be done between a traditional public education track in grad school in partnership with the college of psychology or behavioral sciences or something like that. And I don't know the answer to that. That's a little bit outside of my expertise. But I think there's some different directions for students there. Cohort 8 could look at maybe a preparatory model or you could look at a service model in the school system. So that would be the first one.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's a powerful one. And we're working in Mississippi right now with five districts because there's high levels of opioid use and abuse. And the mental health piece is such a huge part of it because you're dealing with communities that are struggling with some of that and then that is bleeding into the kids and some of the trauma that comes with that. And trying to figure out ways to put universal interventions in place that get kids making better choices that lead to thriving communities so you're less likely to make those choices is hard.
But then when they've already made the choices, you need really specific interventions by highly trained people. And one of the things we've been doing in schools over the last few years is a lot of trying to fill in the gaps for people without training. And it gets really dangerous when you start trying to identify and diagnose and you have educators who are desperate for help and feel these urgent needs, but then they don't have the training. And so sometimes they can exacerbate the problem without that expertise. So I think that's tremendously insightful and needed.
So what would be the next one that you have? If you were to say, "Hey, tackle this," and you said not in order, but what would be something else you would say we should be tackling?
Bobby Ott:
Well, the other thing that we're seeing, and this really points to special program services in particular, English language learners and special education, but those numbers are going up across the state. And there's a couple of reasons for it. I mean, I think one is generational. We're seeing that more and more in the younger generations. You're seeing more students in kinder and first with not just disabilities, but language delay and also high needs, and I'll get into that piece in a second.
But the numbers go up and the funding has gone down. And so the ratios are a big problem in that mix because there are required ratios for very, very specialized programs. And when funding is going down, even the IDEA federal grant has reduced, what funds typically special education services. But the other piece is your qualifiers have expanded too. So for example, adding dyslexia to special ed has totally increased that number in every single school district. And so when those things happen, you start to pull apart the service in the program. It really starts to dilute. And so that's where we're at on that end.
The other piece is RFs or residential facilities. We are really struggling because one, there's not enough residential facilities in said communities, but two, they are very liberal about denying even if they have enough beds in long and short-term placement. It literally is one of the hardest things you can possibly do to get students to qualify for a residential facility. And so what happens is those students a lot of times in schools end up becoming what I call in and outs. They're in, and then the next episode they're out. And so they never really improve educationally or anything else because we are not equipped within the school system to appropriately deliver the services those students need.
And so when they're denied those services from the outside, even through referral processes, and there's a lot of complications with that, could be resources at home, it could be insurance, could be a lot of things. It could be that sometimes parents don't like to get them qualified because they'll lose some of their financial assistance. And I've run into that quite a bit too. So that's a real problem. That is a population in total that is growing, funding is not growing commensurate with the program, and specialized services are very selective for which students can be accepted and not accepted.
So what's the research angle there? I mean, that's a good question. And this sounds a little bit like maybe the first one, but maybe there are different models of partnerships that we can work with students that are denied residential. I mean, there's a zone of students that we don't know how to take care of appropriately and what do we do with those students? Are there transitory programs? Are there effective practices and how we can train people to work with higher ratios or to handle students that are episodic? We are so ill-equipped in that area. And when the students don't have anywhere else to go, the default is us. And at that point, we're really not doing them a justice. We're just not. And it's heartbreaking. It's really heartbreaking.
But that's something that I think would be very encouraging if there were some type of transitory model or something that can be put together. That's on the RF side. I think the other side of it, just regular special education and English language learner piece. What I find is that those are harder and harder to hire even if you do get the stipends up. I think there is an exodus of people leaving that were serving special education students.
And what I hear, or what's reported to me rather through exit interviews, documented exit interviews is a lot of times it's the paperwork piece that comes with it. And this is what I don't know. It almost appears like it's a surprise. And I don't know if in prep programs there's a lot of attention given to the detail of the paperwork piece that comes with teaching in a special program because there seems to be an element of surprise when teachers are leaving and they're explaining, "Well, I didn't realize I had to do all this for RDs, I had to do all this for IEPs, I had to do all this and computer systems," and this, that and the other. And it is heavy. I mean, certainly it does carry a different weight with regard to that piece than say the regular education teacher.
So that is something that I wonder at times. I don't know if that's something that's strong on the research side. I mean, obviously higher ed doesn't have the authority to minimize the bureaucratic requirements. But the time they spend with advocates, the time they spend in meetings and they walk, a lot of times they walk.
And so maybe a way that we can figure out how to help school districts put together very specific teacher retention programs for special education. What does that look like? Retaining a special education and bilingual teacher that's not like retaining a general ed teacher. What does that really look like? And what are some ideas that school districts could do with helping specialized teachers with higher ratios if it comes to that? And then how can we work with students that should be in a residential facility are denied or maybe there isn't bed space or they're in for a month and they're sent back when they should have been in longer? What can we do there?
So that'd be the second one. And that's probably not as succinct as the first one, but maybe there's enough directions you can go out of that.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's powerful and overlaps nicely with the first one. Obviously, mental health is going to weave through all of that. And so the mental health of special education teachers is also part of it. And I think you can tell people and you can prepare people say, "Hey, this is a lot of paperwork. Here's the way you're going to have to do this. These are legal contracts you're creating. This is not going to be a light lift." I think though the reality doesn't hit you until you're actually in it. Because I think most people drawn to special ed really care deeply about kids and that's what gets them... And I think it's true for teaching in general, but I think especially special ed. And then when you're hit with and you're going to have a lot more paperwork. And so you can say it, and then you live the reality and it feels different.
So if you have one other challenge that you see that could use some research, some deeper thought, do you have one more in mind or anything that builds off of these two? Otherwise, we can jump to a couple other questions.
Bobby Ott:
I think the other one would be the general idea of pacing. There is, and this has happened probably for the last 10 years, but there seems to be this growing amount of what needs to be taught in terms of standards and the level of intricacy, which whether it's multi-step problems, high-rigor written responses, you name it. I certainly agree with testing and rigor and depth, but I disagree with the idea that the timing that teachers have to truly get students to understand things at that level and then we're adding more and more standards. To me that starts to dilute the whole entire system of public education. It becomes kind of this mile wide, inch deep versus the inverse.
And so it really... I feel like as a system that we are heading toward a system of testing and minimal completion over true learning and engagement. And this is greatly because of the influence of a lot of the special interests that we're always trying to include in standards, bureaucratic systems, standard setting. And the kids really suffer greatly. And I don't know if teachers really get a handle on that piece of it because it continues to grow.
So research angle, innovative teaching practices that know how to maximize time engagement, content with a group of students that are on different parts of the continuum. I know that we have things like that in prep programs, but I just think that that's something we need more and more. And I do think that we probably ought to start really considering the use of technology in a way to minimize some of the basic steps in education. And that kind of gets to the question of what opportunities do you see for educators? And I can expand on that now or wait until you comment on the third area.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's great. We want to jump into opportunities. Where do you see some optimistic next steps? So certainly jump right into that and then we can expand on that a little bit.
Bobby Ott:
I think technology use. I know AI can be received in many different ways because I've seen it firsthand. Some people turn and walk. Some people think it's a great thing. But I would love to see AI used in a way that allows the teacher to be set up in a classroom in a more intimate way with instruction and allows them to go into depth. I'm wondering if AI in tandem with a classroom teacher could create an environment where the larger nominal content can be delivered in a way in masses and the teacher can become more of, I don't want to say tutor, but someone that goes in and can either provide the enrichment or remediation in smaller groups in a classroom.
I'd love to see AI shrink the classroom. And I think there's ways that that can be done. Now, I'm an administrator, so I wouldn't dare try to come up with ways without teachers being involved, but I think we almost have to get to that level. And I can't think of anything else cost-effective. I mean, you can always add more teachers in a classroom, but at some point in time that becomes a budget buster. I just wonder if there's a way to handle this through technology.
So I think there are opportunities with the development of AI. I think the main thing about it is we have to lead that. It can't be something done organically because if it is students will grab a hold of that and trust me they will lead it in their own way and sometimes in an abusive way that shortchanges learning. And if that happens, then they're going to be ill prepared, number one. And number two, we're going to be spending our time as administrators doing damage control.
So I think it's something we have to get ahead of. I'll tell you, we're looking as a district to have an AI conference, not this summer, but next summer, and invite school districts. We're really trying to do some things to lead the way in that. This summer is kind of a standup summer in terms of educating our staff and making sure that our network is set appropriately so we minimize abuse as much as possible. So we're doing that, but I don't see enough models out there that are something that are make take, you can grab a hold of and implement in a district. So I think there's probably some opportunity for educators there.
Jon Eckert:
Well, I just listened to a podcast, I haven't read the book yet, but Brave New Words by Sal Khan. He obviously with Khan Academy has influenced the learning of millions of kids, but he's super optimistic about what AI can do and creating this personalized and shrinking the classroom. And he certainly doesn't minimize the role of teachers, but it's fascinating. So I definitely need to read that. We hear about AI all the time, and you're right, you have this broad range of responses. And the challenge is going to be that is moving so rapidly that it's really hard to keep out in front. And I agree we have to.
But in a world where we have been doing mile wide, inch deep for forever, William Schmidt, I think he was at Michigan State, he coined that phrase about US curriculum 30, 40 years ago. And so we've been doing this because that's what I think we do a little bit in democracies. If you can't all agree, then just put it all in. Don't narrow, just add. And so you have your special interest groups, you have all these different people that are like, "Hey, this is important." And it is important, but it can't all be important. You have to figure out ways to master things. And maybe AI can be helpful there.
And I think being thoughtful about that and digging in what that means to really engage students well because Sal Khan says it, kids that are already motivated will learn really well with AI. It's the kids who are not. It's the kids with mental health issues. It's the fact that teaching is a very human endeavor. How do we make it even more human using tools? Because AI is just the newest range of tools. So it certainly doesn't replace the human being because ultimately large language models are just scraping what's on the internet. So it's consensus, not wisdom.
So you certainly can learn, but if you really want to become all of who you're created to be, that requires wisdom. And so that's where the humans are there. The problem is, to your point earlier, teachers are stretched so thin and so many demands are being placed on them it's really hard to have that one-on-one interaction. It's hard to really be seen, known, and loved in a system that's not set up for that. And so if AI can help with that, I certainly am excited to see where that goes. So love that you're thinking that way.
If you maybe have one other opportunity you see ahead for Temple specifically or for educators in general, what gives you some hope right now? Where do you see hopeful direction in what we're doing here in Texas?
Bobby Ott:
I am seeing more and more leaders leading authentically and with feeling. And I'm probably saying that in a odd way, but I see large district leaders, superintendents, and principals striking at being as personable as your smaller school. Ones are really, you don't have a choice because you're everywhere. But I see more of that and I see more of this, and I try to do it as much as... Just this shameless, this mobilizing of people to shamelessly remind others why they do it. They love children, they love staff.
And as bad as the political rhetoric has been against public ed generally, I think it's mobilized educators, in particular leaders, teachers have done this night and day, leaders to say, "Hey, that doesn't characterize the entire profession. We are human. We do love our children. This is what we do. This is why we do it." And I see more of that. I really see more of that. I hear more of that when I go to conferences, when I network with superintendents.
Yeah, our conversations could largely be dominated by budget and bonds and the newest innovative program and so forth. But I hear more of things like, "You know, you could get that done in your community if your community truly knows that you love their children, if your staff feels appreciated." And I think there are a lot of reasons for this effort. I think retaining people in the profession is one. But you can only go so far with money. You can only go so far with things. But positive culture, that is number one. I've always said people don't leave a job. They leave a boss because they're going to get the same job somewhere else.
So this idea of how you treat people and how you demonstrate appreciation and care, I think for me, I am seeing more and more of that. I'm seeing more and more of that in the people we hire in administrative positions. I'm seeing things like that on social media. Several years ago I'd see, "Hey, we graduated 653, congratulation to the graduates." And now I'm seeing videos of a student hugging their superintendent and lifting them up off the ground and the superintendent commenting saying, "This is what it's all about." I'm just seeing more of that, whether it's small or big. And I think there's been a void of that.
And I see this idea of when I get into administration, business and logistics taking over my life, that there's a real attempt to say, "It may take over my tasks, but I'm still going to put out in front my community, my students, my teachers, my school nutrition workers, and hold them up." And so that is giving me a lot of hope right now.
Jon Eckert:
That's great. And so these last two questions can be as short or as long as you need them to be, but on a daily basis now, given everything that you're managing, and you just highlighted a little of this, where do you find joy in the work you're doing on a daily basis? What do you go back to to maintain the joy that you seem to have in the midst of a lot of different pressures and challenges? And then the second one is is there a book that you've read in the last year that you're like, "Hey, every leader, every educator, this is a great book. This was helpful"? It doesn't even have to be in the last year. If it's something from earlier, that's great. But I always like to know those things. So where do you find your joy? What's a great book? And then we can wrap up.
Bobby Ott:
I find my joy in the idea that good people are still good people and they exist in the masses. So I try to make sure to connect people as much as possible to those situations. We do Mission Mondays. My entire central office every Monday is on a campus opening doors for kids that are going to school, walking in classrooms, helping to serve breakfast, do those kinds of things. I think that those kinds of things bring me joy because I see it bring them joy.
I see kids get excited when there's more than the same caring adult around them, but there's others that maybe they don't even know their names right away but they know that they're in the same system that they are. It brings me joy when I see people that are normally away from kids in their job reminded of why they got into this whole profession because we put together possibilities where they are around kids. I see teachers with smile on their faces because they see a genuine care from people that aren't doing their jobs but are asking to support them. We always support people behind the scenes in our various roles, but to do it right next to someone while they're real time and to see what they're actually doing. So those kinds of things bring me joy. Just watching great educators no matter where they're at in the system making the difference in each other's lives, in students lives. So that brings me joy.
And then a book that comes to my mind. I don't read a lot of educator books. I'm sorry, but I don't. I read a lot of... I do read leadership books. But there's a book called 1000s CEOs and it's by Andrew Davidson. And it really takes top CEOs and puts them in containers like visionaries, strategists, motivators, innovators, organizers, what have you. And these CEOs talk about their strategies in which the container that they're, I guess labeled in as being most effective. And so there's a lot of really good strategies in there. There was one called, a group called Startup Titans. And when we were going to implement blended learning for the first time, I wanted to hear some of the strategies of deployment from CEOs that startup companies because it was so brand new in our district.
So that for me was a really, really good book. I'll warn you, if it says 1000 anything, that means it's going to be a thick book because there's a lot of pages in it. But it could be a resource. You could look at a table of contents like I did and said, "Hey, we're going to start blended learning in Temple ISD, which container would make the most sense?" Well, innovator container would make sense, a visionary one, and maybe startup titans. So I would go and read some of the CEOs strategies in those areas and then try to formulate my thoughts around deployment and so forth. So that's a book that I read and am happy to pass on.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's super helpful. And I think sometimes in education, we get too caught up in naval gazing, just looking at what we can learn from education. And there's a lot of fields out there that have a lot of wisdom that we can glean. And especially in the role of a superintendent where you're a politician, you're a community organizer, you're a bureaucrat, you're a manager. There's so many different hats you wear, and a human being that finds joy in the good people that you work with and the community that you serve. That's super helpful because the CEO wears many of those hats. And so I think that's great wisdom.
Well, hey, Dr. Ott, thank you so much for the time. Thanks for all you do for us at Baylor, for students and staff in Temple, and then for everybody across the state of Texas. We're grateful to have you so close and your willingness to serve educators in this way. So thank you.
Bobby Ott:
You bet. Thank you. And I wish all the best to Cohort 8. You're entering a great program. And the one thing I would say, I don't know if this is going to them or not, but the one thing I would tell them is a lot of times when you start things like a program, people will start to ponder this idea of journey versus destination kind of thing. Which one's more important? Is it getting the doctorate? Do I try to enjoy it along the way? It's heavy, whatever it may be. And what I would pass on to you is this, anytime you find yourself being asked that question or contemplating it, the answer is neither. It should always be the company. The company is the most important thing. It's not the journey or the destination, it's the company. And so enjoy your professors, enjoy your cohort, get to know the people around you, and that will be the most important thing. And if you do that, I will tell you the journey and the destination will take care of itself.
Jon Eckert:
Such great advice. And that's true for everybody, not just people starting a doctoral cohort. But appreciate how you live that out, and I'm grateful that you're on the journey with us and you're part of the company that we get to keep. So thanks again.
Bobby Ott:
You bet. Take care.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Allison Posey. The discussion covers the importance of Universal Design for Learning (UDL) and the role of neuroscience in education. Allison emphasizes the need for a shift from a deficit mindset to one that recognizes the variability and potential in all learners.Additionally, the conversation explores the challenges educators face, such as time constraints and the need for professional development that supports flexible and inclusive teaching practices.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Books Mentioned:Unlearning by Allison Posey & Katie NovakConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Transcription:
Jon Eckert:
We're excited to have Allison Posey in today. She is an amazing educator that, I just have to say this, I met in Paris just a week or so ago, and it was a great privilege to meet her at a UNESCO conference on inclusive education, how do we educate more kids around the world, which was a fascinating conference to be at. And so really excited to meet her and for you to meet her as well. So Allison, great to have you on today.
Allison Posey:
Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.
Jon Eckert:
Can you just give us a little bit of your journey that brought you to CAST and Universal Design for Learning, which we'll get into what that is in a little bit, but what got you to the position that you're in now?
Allison Posey:
Well, I started to jump back one step and then I went two steps back. So I was teaching at a really cool program called, actually I don't like the title of it, the Center for Talented Youth because what youth is not talented, but there is a certain measure that was used to assess students on a kind of talent, one kind of talent. And they would come to Johns Hopkins for the summer and study one thing really intensely. So I got to teach neuroscience for six weeks in the summer to really interested students. And when I say interested, we had to take the books away from them after seven hours of being in the classroom, so they would have to go socialize and do kind of the camp thing. So a lot of neuroscience, a lot of learning, gifted and talented. Right.
Allison Posey:
And I had a student one year who we were having these incredible conversations about learning in the brain. He basically had read the college level textbook in a week, and this was a high school student. And yeah, at first I was like, I don't know about that. But the more we started talking, I thought, wow, he really is making sense of all. It took me six years to get through this textbook. He's really making sense of it all. And when I went to score his first assessment, it was completely blank and he didn't complete any of his assignments.
Allison Posey:
And I found out from his parent at the meetings at the end with the families that he was failing four out of his five high school courses and was severely depressed and at risk of dropping out. And I was so upset by this one, because I didn't know it as his teacher. I'd been working with him for these six weeks and I didn't realize it was at that level. And two, I realized I didn't know how to teach. So ironically, here I am teaching about the brain and I didn't feel like I knew how to reach the humans who had the brains with all the stuff that I was teaching. So I went to graduate school. I will get to the answer to your question.
Jon Eckert:
No, I love this path. I did not know where you were going with this. But again, you first, you start off with every teacher's dream, kids you have to take the books away from after seven hours. And then that realization that I don't really know what I'm doing when it's not actually working or the way that curriculum's being implemented, at least in those four of those five classes, it's not working. What do I do? So love that start.
Allison Posey:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Keep going.
Allison Posey:
And I was 10 years into my teaching about. So I'd been doing this for a while, just this feeling of I actually don't know what I'm doing. So Harvard had this amazing program called Mind, Brain & Education, and I thought, well, I know about the brain and I've been an educator. Let me check it out. And I was so fortunate to have as an advisor, David Rose, who is the founder of CAST and Universal Design for Learning. He was my advisor. It was just such a gift. So I learned about this framework. Well, actually let me take a little tiptoe back. The first article we read in this program was that the connection between neuroscience research and classroom practice is a bridge too far, that what we're learning in neuroscience labs that are isolated, maybe one individual at a time doing one task in very controlled environments are completely different from what we would do in a classroom with dozens of students and fire alarms and all this stuff.
Allison Posey:
And I don't know how you felt when you heard me say that, but I was angry. I absolutely was like these two fields need to be talking to each other. And I have really literally made it my profession to try to bridge the gap. And there are a lot of times when I'm having conversations with educators that I've noticed, I'm like, well, the gap may be a little too far between neuroscience and the bridge between neuroscience and education, but we need to keep having the conversations. So Universal Design for Learning is a framework that really is trying to make connections between the neuroscience of learning and the best high leverage practices that there are in order to reach each and every individual. So I think I finally got to the answer to your question.
Jon Eckert:
But what a great journey to it. You got there because of a need you observed as a teacher. And to me, that's the whole benefit of why we go back to grad school. So I always tell people that are looking at a Master's or an EDD or a PhD, wait until you've taught a few years because you'll have plenty of questions that you're trying to figure out. I thought this, but when I worked with kids, I realized this or I worked with other adults, I realized this. And so what a brilliant reason to go to UDL and CAST. So I guess let's do this.
Allison Posey:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Tell us a little bit about Universal Design for Learning in case people don't know what that is. I will say at the UNESCO conference, everybody there from around the world seemed to know what UDL was. So it may be very few of you don't know what it is, but talk about that as a way to connect neuroscience in the classroom because we get this all the time. If you want to sell a book, it feels like in education, throw neuroscience in there and it's like, oh, there's neuroscience in there. It must mean something. But talk about how UDL is that practical bridge to make sure each kid's needs are met and the talents that they have can flourish in a classroom.
Allison Posey:
It was actually very exciting to see. UDL talked about a lot at UNESCO without CAST, the originators of UDL needing to say anything about it. I mean, I wasn't the one presenting on it. So it was amazing to get to learn from folks how this framework is helping. It is a teaching and learning framework. So if your school or district doesn't have a common framework for teaching, this is a great framework because it gives a common language for learning that is grounded in the brain. So I don't have to label students as having disabilities. I don't have to take a deficit mindset. I can use UDL to proactively plan an environment that anticipates the variability of learning that we know will have in our classroom. And there are nine different dimensions that UDL explores through our UDL guidelines. And then under each of those dimensions of learning, there are a bunch of our tried and true strategies.
Allison Posey:
So I don't have, UDL is not, I always, I'll say to educators, I wish I had a magic wand and it was like the tool that engaged each learner in the learning. I don't have that tool, but I have a framework that can help you think about the design and how it's meeting or not meeting the needs of all the students. And it is liberating to not have to feel like I need to label each and every student with a deficit of what they can't do. Instead, I just look to make a creative, flexible learning space. And that space might include the methods that you're using, the materials that are there, the goals and the assessments. Even the assessments. As much as we love our standardized tests here in the US, really thinking deeply about how the assessments are universally designed and flexible to make sure you're able to get at the constructs that you're wanting to measure in the assessments as well. So we look at UDL across those four dimensions of curricula.
Jon Eckert:
Well, what I love about that as a 12-year teaching veteran of what I call real teaching, I've been in higher ed now 15 years, and I feel like that's fake teaching. You get some of those kids that you have to take the books away from, which as a middle school science teacher, it's like, yeah, that wasn't really a problem for most of the kids I was teaching, but I had a few. What I love about it is when you think about the RTI or MTSS, Multi-Tiered System of Support, UDL is a tier one support for each kid. So you do that so that you don't have to start labeling and elevating kids and you're trying to meet each kid's needs through materials that make them really interesting to teach. Teaching's infinitely interesting, but it becomes overwhelming when we don't have the tools in place to help us do it.
Jon Eckert:
The same thing I wanted to say about UDL. I first became aware of it when I was writing test items. I wrote test items for seven different states for Houghton Mifflin's testing company Riverside. And one of the things we always had to do is we had to use UDL principles in all the items that we wrote or they wouldn't be accepted. So you got paid per item that made it through the screeners, so you paid really close attention to those pieces. And if it didn't hit the UDL standards. Now I don't know that I always achieved exactly what CAST would say would be a UDL standard because you're still doing multiple choice tests with an open response. It's challenging sometimes to do this. They also wanted us writing the top levels of Bloom's taxonomy with multiple choice items, which I still argue is impossible, but I would do my best.
Jon Eckert:
But I love that about UDL because it couples the instruction with the assessment and I, however, we're assessing, I get frustrated in the US and people say, Hey, we don't want to teach to the test. Then what are you teaching to? The key is, is the test a good test? We're always teaching to an assessment. If we're not teaching to an assessment, then we're just performing. And so UDL says, here's the way we're going to deliver instruction, and here's also how we're going to assess. Because any good teacher wants to teach to an assessment. It's just we don't want to teach the bad assessments. And that's where I appreciate the critique that, hey, if it's not a good assessment, then what am I doing? But if I'm not assessing what the student's doing, then how do I know I taught anything?
Jon Eckert:
And so it goes back to that great quote. I don't know if you got exposed to the seven step lesson plan from Madeline Hunter. It was how I got taught to teach and it was not UDL, but there were elements of UDL in it before UDL existed. But she said this, "To say you've taught when no one has learned is to say you have sold when no one bought." And so to me, UDL can be that nice through line between instruction and assessment. Am I overstating anything? Is there anything you'd push back on there or anything you'd want to add?
Allison Posey:
The thing I would push back on is the goal of UDL isn't to be able to achieve an assessment, but the goal is to be able to develop expertise around learning about whatever it is you want to learn about. So we call it expert learning. Now, I think I would say a lot of the language at UNESCO was around even student agency, being able to know what you need to know to do your best learning, and whether that's to take a test so that you can now learn how to drive and that's your goal, or whether it's to become a scientist, or a musician, or whatever it is that you're wanting to do, and be, and the joy you find in life that you're pursuing, that you know how to be strategic to get what you need. You know how to build your background and importantly, you know how to sustain effort and persistence so that you can engage in a way that's meaningful.
Allison Posey:
And in that sentence, I just used the three UDL principles. So those three principles really do align with what we know about learning and the brain and you have be engaged in order to even pay attention and build the background you need to be able to do what you need to do. So those three principles really are broadly aligned to this model and this way of thinking. So yes to the assessments, but yes to pushing on assessments to really be meaningful and what we need to do in the communities and in the society so that they're connected a little bit tighter. And the other thing you said that I really appreciate is that you're never done. It's never like, there is one thing where I'm like, wow, we did it. Check UDL off the list. There are always more ways of thinking about those assessment questions, your resources, your materials to make sure that they're accessible and that folks can engage and take action strategically with them.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and I really appreciate that corrective because I came to UDL through the assessment and that was the filter. And I thought it was sometimes a little artificial, but the idea that you're building student agency, you're building cognitive endurance so that they can do meaningful things, that's what we want. And so I like to think of assessment much more broadly as saying, hey, how do we know that you have that agency? What are the markers that show that? And I think that's a much broader perspective than what I came to it with. And so I appreciate that and it gives that, feeds that you're never done. And that's why we're always learning, as educators we're always learning, and our students are always learning and they're growing, but they have to have a passion for what they're doing. So you have to be able to know them, see them, do that, to tap into that cognitive endurance so it doesn't become a compliance culture.
Jon Eckert:
And I think we've done that in a lot of schools, and I think UDL pushes back on that. I'll give you one example that is a compliance culture for teachers. I still walk in classrooms. I'm like, oh, there's the learning target dutifully written on the board. Well, that's fine, but that doesn't mean anything meaningful is happening for kids. And it becomes a checklist thing to the point you made. And if UDL becomes, oh, we're using UDL check, it's like, no, that's not the point. And so I feel like there's that culture sometimes in US schools where we want to make sure it's being done. So that becomes a checklist. And it's like, well, if you have a really bad teacher, it's better to have a learning target on the board. It's better to use UDL than not, but that doesn't actually mean meaningful learnings happening. And so I think there needs to be a better onboarding of educators, a real time, here's what this looks like, feedback for them as they use UDL. How does CAST, if at all, how do you engage in that kind of training and support for educators?
Allison Posey:
Oh, you are talking to the right person. I have been thinking about this for years.
Jon Eckert:
Good, good.
Allison Posey:
There is no easy answer, but I was actually on the team that worked to really try to develop credentials around UDL. How do you look for and measure what's largely a mindset? Because I do use all the same tools. As I was saying, it's not like all of a sudden you have UDL and there's a magic tool that's different and the classroom looks differently. What's different is my mindset in my mindset of the high expectations for all learners. And if there's a barrier, the barrier is framed in the design of the environment and reduced because I've co-constructed that with my students, with my learners. That is really hard to get a video of, to take a picture of, to gather data around. And so our credential process has tried to identify a minimum. So we have a mindset credential, we have an analysis credential, and then we have an application credential because we realize you don't just all of a sudden shift your mindset and start doing everything differently.
Allison Posey:
You actually, and I've written again, told you, I think about this a lot. I wrote a whole book on unlearning, how you actually have to unlearn a lot of your tried and true practices that you went through school doing, you went through teacher prep maybe even doing in order to trade up for this really different mindset. I would argue, at least in my experience in the US schools and the little bit that I've been internationally, we still are largely a deficit-based approach where we have kind of a pre-made lasagna lesson that I like to call it. And if a student doesn't do it in more or less the same way, at more or less the same time, we think there's something wrong and we have to fix the student as opposed to saying, wait a minute, it's probably this pre-made lasagna lesson that assumes incorrectly that there is going to be an average student.
Allison Posey:
And one thing we know from brain science, mathematicians don't like me to say this, one thing we know from brain science is there is no average learner. When you look at brain scans across hundreds of individuals and you look at their average, it matches no one. It's an amazing thing. So in education, we might say, oh, well we have the high group, as I was telling you that that's who they thought they had. They were so much variability in those learners across. And I ended up using UDL to think about nine different dimensions of that variability to really kind of get at the complexity of what educators are tasked to do. And that's to educate each and every student. I mean, it's such an underappreciated profession because it is so hard to do.
Jon Eckert:
Right. Well, and I just pulled up your book, Unlearning, which is a great title for the book. And what we have to do that. The thing that I worry about, two things. We will take this and turn it into a scripted curriculum, which is taking at least elementary schools by storm in the United States because we have de-professionalized education to where we don't have highly trained people in the classroom where it's like, well, let's give them a script and if a student responds this way, you respond this way. Or we're putting in front of a screen which can be adaptive and can do some of those things. I have that concern. And the second concern I have is that we make teaching seem so complex that very conscientious, hardworking, intelligent educators will say, I just can't do this. This is too much. How does UDL get you focused on the right things without making it so it's a script, but it simplifies it in a way that it feels doable because that's what I hear about UDL. How do you see that playing out, if at all, or are my concerns valid?
Allison Posey:
No, you say it so well. I think one, we need UDL for educators as well. They are learners and they have brains and they are interacting in these school systems and often do not have the tools and resources and flexibility they need to be able to do their jobs well and they are not paid enough. I would love, love for teachers to actually make what they deserve in wages and to find the difference that that might make. Okay. So UDL for educators as well.
Jon Eckert:
Get on your soapbox. Okay.
Allison Posey:
See, I got so into that. I forgot my second point that I was going to make. Oh, descriptiveness of UDL. Here's the secret to UDL. We can provide options. Right. A grocery store has options. It has lots of options. And if I just walk into the grocery store and I'm like, I have options. I don't know what I'm buying, I get frustrated, I'm confused, there all these things you can do. That's like education. We have all these tools, all these things. Often what we're lacking is a very clear goal. You mentioned goals earlier and goals are different from standards, but it's really breaking down, like for this moment in time, here's what I really want my learners to know, do, or care about. And when you have such a clear vision of that, like I know that I'm going to go grocery shopping for the hockey team dinner, I'm going to be so strategic in a different way than I'm shopping for the UNESCO picnic that we're going to have. Right.
Jon Eckert:
Right.
Allison Posey:
So depending on the goal, you make such different choices. And so those goals are often in my work with educators, and I've been in the UDL world for 12 years, so it's been a while now. We really end up returning to what's the goal? And very often we hear, here's the activity, or we hear, what's this chapter of the book? And it's like, no, but what's the goal? And once you identify the goal, then you can better identify how to be flexible within that. So it takes more work on the front end. It does. People don't always like to hear. It takes more work on the front end, but it saves you work on the back end. And more learners are able to get to that goal because it's clear, we've reduced some of the hidden biases that are in our like, well, don't you already know how to do that? And why don't you have that private tutor? And it just makes the process so much more transparent.
Allison Posey:
But it's again, largely not what we're doing in our schools and classrooms now. So you actively have to unlearn. And that takes energy and is hard. So do it small, start small, have teams and people working together with you to build that culture where the flexibility is valued because you recognize that learner variability.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
Allison Posey:
And the number of times, yeah, go ahead.
Jon Eckert:
No, I was going to say that's the life-giving part of teaching, when you see kids doing things that they didn't think they could do. And so that's where it keeps you coming back and it makes it worth the effort. And so it's way more fun to put the effort on the front end where kids can be successful and trying to give them feedback on ways that you're like, I clearly did not set this up. We did not have a clear target, we didn't have success criteria. We didn't... And so totally 100% agree. The effort on the front ends, way more rewarding than trying to clean up a bad assignment on the back end. So yeah.
Allison Posey:
Yeah, just like a bad dinner party. It's so much to say. Everyone didn't like my one lasagna I gave them. What?
Jon Eckert:
Good example. So let me wrap us up with our lightning round. So given all your experience with UDL and some of the misapplication of some of the research and the neuroscience that you know, what's the worst piece of advice you've ever heard? It doesn't have to be related to UDL, but it could be. But worst piece of advice you've gotten as an educator.
Allison Posey:
Oh, one of them was don't smile the first half of the year.
Jon Eckert:
I need to go back. We've done about 40 of these podcasts and I think in about 30 of them when I've asked it, that's the worst piece of advice that comes up every time.
Allison Posey:
No kidding. Yes. Right.
Jon Eckert:
It's horrible advice because it dehumanizes teaching.
Allison Posey:
It's all about the relationships and the community. So why would you not have that from the beginning?
Jon Eckert:
Right. I do not know. I hope that advice is not, I hope it's just because I'm old, that that feels like advice,-
Allison Posey:
Oh, I have a different one maybe. Maybe here's another one. Check your emotions at the door.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, similar, right? Ridiculous. And you've also written a book on emotions, right?
Allison Posey:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Yes.
Allison Posey:
Yes. You are never without those emotions. In fact, if you check them at the door, there's a problem.
Jon Eckert:
Right. And part of decision making includes emotions. I think emotions have kind of gotten a little bit, they've gotten a bad rap and now there's kind of a corrective coming. So super helpful. All right. Best piece of advice you've ever received?
Allison Posey:
Oh, this will be for my mentor David Rose. Oh, she just came to mind, but I'll stick to one. Anything worth doing will probably not be achieved in your lifetime.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, wow. That's, okay. And then give me the second one too because you said you had two.
Allison Posey:
Teaching's emotional work.
Jon Eckert:
Ah. All right. No. Hey, that's a good reminder. And I just read the Same as Ever by Morgan Housel. And he had this thing, he came out in November of 2023. He said, "We don't celebrate incremental improvement enough." So if you look at heart disease and the way it's been managed since the 1950s, we've made a one and a half percent improvement every year since the 1950s. And you're never going to get a headline, hey, we made a one and a half percent improvement in heart disease treatment.
Allison Posey:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
But over time, that compounding interest is huge. And I think as educators, we need to remember it's not, and I've quit talking about solutions and I focus on improvement because I think solutions indicate that we think that there's some place that we arrive at, which we talked about earlier. We don't. We just keep improving. And so that's where... Super helpful piece there. Okay. What's the biggest challenge you see for educators? We can go worldwide or in the US. You pick your audience. What's the biggest challenge you see?
Allison Posey:
I mean, the biggest challenge I hear over and over is time. We just don't have time to do the curriculum adaptation that we need to do, to have the conversations, to do the one-on-one. So we do hear repeatedly that time is a barrier. But I will say from my perspective, it's the mindset. It's really, the deficit mindset is still so pervasive and we pass that on to students. So they think they're not science students or they're just not good at math. I mean, they have these raw generalizations that, again, from a neuroscience perspective, we know is not true, so.
Jon Eckert:
That's good.
Allison Posey:
Yeah, I think that deficit mindset's our biggest challenge right now.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and John Hattie's work on mind frames reinforces that as well. I mean, very similar kinds of framing. And I do think, well, and Ronald Heifetz work on adaptive challenges. He's a Harvard guy. Your degrees from Harvard. The idea that technical challenges are real, but adaptive challenges require a change in mindset because the problem and solution are unclear. And so many of the issues that we deal with in education are adaptive and not technical. As we keep slapping more technical band aids on adaptive challenges, teachers get cynical as they should.
Allison Posey:
They should. Yes.
Jon Eckert:
As they should.
Allison Posey:
Yes.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. So what's your best hope for educators as you look ahead?
Allison Posey:
I just hope they see the impact. It's such an important profession and we need the best people in it. I thank teachers all the time for doing the work they do, because one student at a time makes a difference and it has such opportunity to promote change and to make that difference. It's our future, it's our collective future. So it's such an important profession.
Jon Eckert:
It's a good word Allison. Good word to end on. Well, hey, thank you for the work you do.
Allison Posey:
It's more than one word.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah.
Allison Posey:
I'm rarely down to one word.
Jon Eckert:
Hey, that's all right. That's all right. You did better than I would've done. But thanks for what you do and thanks you for the time that you gave us today.
Allison Posey:
I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.
-
In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Joel Satterly, head of school at Westminster Academy in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. The discussion covers Joel's diverse career journey, from teaching in an inner-city middle school in Lexington, Kentucky, to leading various Christian schools across the United States. Joel emphasizes the importance of integrating academic rigor with faith formation, highlighting Westminster Academy's commitment to this philosophy since its founding.Additionally, the conversation explores the unique cultural diversity of Fort Lauderdale and how Westminster Academy reflects and benefits from this diversity. Joel notes the school's commitment to maintaining a size that allows for individualized attention and the significance of understanding and supporting each student as an individual.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Books Mentioned:Leadership by Henry KissingerConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Transcript:
Jon:
Welcome back to Just Schools. Today we're here with Joel Satterly, head of school at Westminster Academy in Florida. Joel, great to have you with us.
Joel Satterly:
Thanks, Jon. Great to be here.
Jon:
Now, you've had quite an interesting career, so if you could just give us a quick travel through your career that got you to Westminster, that'd be a great place for us to start.
Joel Satterly:
Sure. Maybe I'm a little unique in there's some guys and women in this industry that have military background, which I do, but also have an MBA. Which is kind of interesting, and a theological doctorate of ministry. That from an educational side, it's kind of an interesting mix.
My professional journey, I started like a lot of people teaching in a public school. I was in an inner city middle school in my hometown of Lexington, Kentucky. My job was to convince seventh graders who were poverty-stricken, that ancient world history mattered to their life, which was a great learning lab and I learned a ton. And through a whole series of events, wound up leaving that position and going to a growing Christian school, Lexington Christian Academy, where I taught and then moved into administration both at the junior high and high school level.
And in 1999, I took my first head of school position in Rock Hill, South Carolina. I journeyed from Rock Hill to rural central Florida, a little place called Crystal River where the manatees live-
Jon:
Wow, nice.
Joel Satterly:
...at a PCA church school there. A short stint outside Atlanta for a couple of years in another PCA church setting, and then up to Chicago where actually I think we met, Jon.
Jon:
That's right.
Joel Satterly:
When you were up there at Chicago Christian, a very old CSI Christian reform school system. And we have some mutual friends that are connected through that place. And then back down to Florida here, finishing my eighth year at Westminster Academy in Fort Lauderdale.
Jon:
Hey, well, you're definitely winning on the winters there.
Joel Satterly:
No doubt. Losing on the pizza though.
Jon:
Oh you are, but your body is grateful for that. I always say leaving Chicago was sad for me from what we get to eat, but it's probably added four or five years to life because everything I loved in Chicago was probably killing me. But the Chicago pizza is top on that list.
So love the journey you have and I think the shaping of your military background, the MBA, teaching in public school and leading in so many different contexts in independent schools, that certainly enriches you. But I want to talk a little bit about Westminster Academy because I was able to be there a few months ago and meet a lot of your team and do some work there. But I'm really curious about the thread that you see going through Westminster Academy since its founding to where you are now and what makes it distinctive in the climate that you're in, there in Florida right now?
Joel Satterly:
Fort Lauderdale, I think, was made famous by the movie Where The Boys Are, which captured the whole idea of Florida spring break.
Jon:
Yeah, that's a thing.
Joel Satterly:
And for a long time, Fort Lauderdale was the place and then it moved I think other places. So people have an image of Fort Lauderdale through that in a lot of ways. And it's not too far from being wrong. It tends to be a very secular place, a place of some international flavor. It's a very mixed, culturally diverse part of the United States. It can be very affluent, but they're wide ranges of affluence and poverty in this area. Very transient. So it's kind of interesting.
Westminster Academy was founded in 1971, birthed out of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, which was one of the largest and first founders in the PCA. But one of the first very famous for the Coral Ridge hour back in the eighties that people might recall. And so Westminster was formed out of that. I like to joke, sometimes I say there are several great ironies that are true here. One is a Calvinist started evangelism explosion. D. James Kennedy, founding pastor at Coral Ridge started Evangelism explosion, which has had a huge influence in the world.
One of the other great ironies is the school that he helped get started, and I think in those days they were pretty fundamentalist and pretty conservative, started at a horse track because there weren't permanent space anywhere. So it used to be a place where you don't dance because it could lead to card playing and awful things like that. Yet the school starts in a horse track. So God has a sense of humor about that, I think.
But through all of that, I think there are a couple of things about Westminster that have been through puts for it that have guided it. One is a commitment to recognizing that academic rigor and faith formation are one in the same. And Christians should not settle for anything less than that. And a commitment to being excellent in how it goes about that. The other it would follow. And that was working to legitimize the Evangelical Christian Day School. Because I think Westminster, its founding was distinct from some of the other foundings of similar schools in the South in that it was founded away from desegregation and some of those other issues that may have fueled some of that.
South Florida was kind of a different time in a different place, a different set of variables. So it's been a place that's cared about being legitimate, it's cared about advancing the kingdom and been very committed to putting deep roots in the community.
Jon:
Now you mentioned the diversity and the international flavor Lauderdale and the amazing group of community resources you have there. How do you see Westminster reflecting and benefiting from that? I think earlier you talked about it being kind of an organic process. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Joel Satterly:
Yeah, so this part of the country's interesting. There's an organic diversity that... I believe I recently read where Broward County is the most diverse county in the state of Florida now, which would make it one of the more diverse counties in areas in the United States. But it's a happy diversity. One that is complimentary. So it is not to say that there aren't some tensions from time to time, but generally speaking it's transient nature helps with that as well. But you just have, the entire world is here. You go to the beach and you can hear multiple languages being spoken on any given day, for example.
So it means our student body is fairly diverse, particularly by Christian Day school standards, mainly because we admit the families that live in our local area. And even on the geographical part of Fort Lauderdale, all of it is diverse. So we don't have to work very hard at it. The challenge for us though is, like a lot of other people, is on the faculty and staff side. Figuring that part of the equation out. One of the other things that's kind of funny when people come to visit, when we talk about cultural diversity too, it's very localized. So we kind of joke that Spanish speaking folks, that's not diverse here.
Jon:
Right. Yeah, I totally understand that. I was just in South Carolina and I was in schools that were 95% African American. And we would call those diverse schools, but you're not seeing a ton of diversity in the same way you're saying for Spanish speakers in Florida, that's probably not going to be outside the norm.
Joel Satterly:
Right. It is interesting though. I haven't been here long enough yet to differentiate among the Caribbean Islands, but there are people that can. And so I don't want to downplay the cultural distinction because I do think that there are some deeply held... Like anywhere else human beings are what we are. So there are some deeply held pressures, but generally speaking, it's really a cool place to do this work because of that.
Jon:
Well, and that's where I think the diversity conversation sometimes gets derailed because we get into group and identity politics. And really each individual I described, I just mentioned the South Carolina schools that were 95% African-American. Within that, there are so many differences ethnically within those groups.
Joel Satterly:
Right.
Jon:
And the food, I always love the food culture. So I love going to places like Fort Lauderdale and I love Chicago for that and I love a lot of other cities because you can find so many variations on things. And I think we really lose out on the richness of what we do in education when we lose the trees for the forest.
Joel Satterly:
That's right.
Jon:
Even if I have three or four groups at my school, we're missing all the individuals there. So how do we make sure we see the tree that's inside that forest because there's so much richness there. So when we reduce diversity to groups, we're just missing the fact that you're not seeing the individual. And if we believe that our job as educators is to walk alongside kids to help them to become more of who they were created to be, you don't do that as a group.
Joel Satterly:
Right.
Jon:
You do that individually within a group and all of that is part of a relationship that you build, but it is with individuals. So I appreciate you saying that. What do you think Westminster does well in that regard to see, know and love each student? I mean, how many students do you have first of all? And then how do you ensure that each kid is seen, known and loved well, in a way that honors the calling that the school has?
Joel Satterly:
So we're a little over a thousand students, preschool through 12th grade. And one of the things that we're committed to is a size culture. Westminster really sees itself as between 1100 and 1200 student school maximum, complete maximum capacity, if every single kid fit exactly in the right grade that we needed them. You know how that works.
Jon:
Right.
Joel Satterly:
But we're about where we want to be size-wise, because at a certain size it's very difficult for students to be known and loved. There are realities of size. So that's a commitment that the school has had more recently. I think when it's founded, it was on a growth curve like everybody else. But I mean, I think over time it's learned that the value in having a very distinctive size culture. So that would be one. I wonder too, if COVID taught us something. I was just thinking when you're talking about being individual focused for a minute, for us at least, that COVID experience gave us a chance to figure out what is it we're supposed to be doing.
And one of the takeaways we came out with is education is fundamentally a life on life endeavor. And because it is, that means there's certain things that we need to be in the same space with each other to accomplish. At least most effectively. So there's a commitment to that. There's a commitment to seeing students that way. A lot of schools talk about differentiating instruction and that sort of thing, and we take our hand at that. I think one of the reasons we had you come here and help us, talk to us, and Lynn Swanner and some others, is we want to get better at that and recognize that.
But I think it's more of a posture of our faculty that they just do kids. They just get into their lives. And I was with a family last night, we were talking about taking a leadership role, a voluntary leadership role in our school. A very high level executive in South Florida. And the dad just got teary talking about what the different people in the school had meant for their family. And he started asking, tell me about that. And it's really just the gift of time. It's just really being intentional and saying, your child matters and we're going to figure it out.
Jon:
One of the things I liked about what you said earlier was that formation and excellence go hand in hand. So many times Christian schools have been maligned or fundamentalist schools of being anti-learning when in the end, at the end of the day, we're called to maximize the gifts we're given.
Joel Satterly:
Right.
Jon:
In studying the world, our place in the world, how things work, we're actually getting a better glimpse of God and how the world was put in this created order. So I really appreciate that perspective that you bring. And when you then couple that with seeing the individual and making sure that the goal is to not just get bigger, but it's to go deeper with each student so that he or she can go deeper in their formation and the excellence, and maximizing the gifts that they've been given. Not for self-actualization or a humanistic reason, but because they're created beings who we get the privilege of walking and helping them become more of that. That's the true blessing. And when you see that, that's what makes parents like the one you described tear up, because what a gift that is to families.
Joel Satterly:
And I think another part of that, with that, you're talking about the individual image bearer, is our commitment to worldview, jon. I mean, I think it bears out of our theological grounding and founding. But this idea of in worldview is such a trite word today, I realize and hate to even use it. But it is really significant in this particularly becoming more and more critical.
So we actually talked with our students and our faculty about that topic around three questions that we try to frame. Who is God? What is the nature of man? And what do you do with freedom? And you can talk about what is the nature of man? You can talk around, well, what is the student like? What is the teacher? How do we deal with dignity? What do we do with the fallenness? And how do we figure all that out? And the issue of freedom might be the most pressing issue facing our high school age kids today. And helping them understand freedom in the context of how they were created and made is the ultimate freedom. And that's what gives us this fuel to have an of individual focus.
Jon:
Yeah. No, I appreciate that. We always wrap up with the lightning round. So I'm going to go through three or four questions here. And I'm curious about this first one. So these are always a word, phrase, or sentence. The first question is, what's the best book or one of the most memorable books you've read this past year?
Joel Satterly:
I think I would say Kissinger's book on leadership.
Jon:
Interesting.
Joel Satterly:
Simply it's a bunch of chapters around individual world leaders in the mid to late 20th century that some of them are a bit more obscure than others. Just fascinating.
Jon:
Love it. What do you see as the biggest challenge facing education currently in the US?
Joel Satterly:
How we define success. How do we think through, what does all that look like?
Jon:
So if that's the biggest challenge, what's your best piece of advice to school leaders as they think about defining success?
Joel Satterly:
Everybody can't get a trophy.
Jon:
Okay. Very good. All right. We don't celebrate mediocrity.
Joel Satterly:
Right.
Jon:
It's one of my favorite parts of the Incredibles when they lay into that. So, all right, good. And as you look ahead, what's your best hope for education in the US as you look ahead in the year ahead?
Joel Satterly:
It feels to me like we're on the precipice of some sort of spiritual revival in certain places. And so at least I see a renewed... And one of the things, I think that the culture swinging in certain directions for different times helps the people of God refocus and it just smells that way to me. I could be wrong, but it feels like there's a movement happening. I realize Aslan never sleeps, right? But it just feels different to me than it did say five or six years ago.
Jon:
Well, I hope you're right. And again, as we get to lead for joy through truth and love, that's the kind of movement that we want to see-
Joel Satterly:
Right.
Jon:
... as we hopefully become more of who we're created to be so that we can be better conduits of that and not get in the way of what the Lord wants to do through us. So Joel, I appreciate your time and the work you do at Westminster. Thanks for taking the time to be with us today.
Joel Satterly:
My pleasure, jon. Thanks so much.
-
In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Dr. Ann Marie Taylor. The discussion covers various aspects of educational leadership and the unique approaches taken at Horse Creek Academy. Ann Marie emphasizes the importance of celebrating and honoring teachers to prevent the profession from declining and shares innovative practices at her school, such as on-site daycare and providing amenities like a coffee bar for staff.Additionally, the conversation explores the distinctions between joy and happiness, drawing on insights from books such as "The Book of Joy" by the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu, and "Dare to Lead" by Brené Brown. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Books Mentioned:The Book of Joy: Lasting Happiness in a Changing World by Dalai Lama , Desmond Tutu, and Douglas Carlton AbramsDare to Lead by Brene BrownConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert LinkedInTwitter: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Transcript:
Jon Eckert:
Today we're here with Dr. Anne Marie Taylor. She is the lead learner, love that title, at Horse Creek Academy in South Carolina. I love the work that she does and the fact that she teaches a criminology course on top of being what most people would call a principal.
So Ann Marie, thanks for being with us today, and thanks for what you do at Horse Creek.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah, it's the best gig ever.
Jon Eckert:
Yes, I love that. I love the energy you bring. We got to be together just a couple of weeks ago as we talked to the Collective Leadership Initiative in South Carolina. We've been working on that for eight years. You've been a part of it with your school for five years. Talk to us a little bit about how your school approaches collective leadership and how it's part of what you talk about nicely, about the norms, that you have created at Horse Creek Academy. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah. First of all, I was fangirling a little bit when we saw each other a couple of weeks ago, so I just need to admit that just in case anyone's listening. But ...
Jon Eckert:
That's the first time that's ever happened, Ann Marie.
Ann Marie Taylor:
No, it's not. Okay, it's the nerd version. It's the nerd version of fangirl
Jon Eckert:
Okay. I'll accept nerd version
Ann Marie Taylor:
Okay, so I had never been a school leader previous to coming to Horse Creek Academy. I guess no one else interviewed that had any experience at all, so they picked me, which was a win. But the school had some amazing people and had so much potential. I remember walking in excited to see what I could do, but mostly realizing that in my previous leadership experience when I left, the work stopped and I was so ... Gosh, I was stuck by that a little bit. I was determined to not go into this new phase of leadership in my career with that same mindset.
We dove right in. It's a charter school. It's been in existence 20 years in South Carolina. I went back to the original charter and the staff and I picked out a couple words that really stuck in the 10, 15 years that had been in existence that really stuck and those three words kind of guided us. But what I knew is it was such a big job, I couldn't do it by myself. I also knew that I had spent 16, 17 years in the profession at that point and felt like I never really fit in a traditional system. I was always too big or moving too fast or making too much change, and kind of was put in the corner. I think about that Dirty Dancing movie about Baby in the corner. But anyway-
Jon Eckert:
You let baby be put in the corner. Ann Marie, no.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yes, so I was determined to think through how to do leadership different. Number one, selfishly, because I knew that there was a lot to offer and there was a lot of change ahead, and I knew it was going to be a ton of work. But mostly because I knew that the only thing I knew how to do maybe was build a team. I used that to my advantage and really found the best people around me that could help.
We had visited a school in South Carolina that was a part of this initiative already, and I fell in love with the idea that anyone could lead, and how I desperately wanted that as a teacher and I never could get it. We started by diving into norms and expectations and saying something that I've repeated millions of times, "Hey, I can almost guarantee I'll disappoint you, but I'll disappoint you a lot less if we set up norms and expectations."
When I talk about norms and expectations, I think about when I was a classroom teacher, most of my years have been in special education, and most of those years were in self-contained classrooms. I remember because of students with behavior disorders that I would work with, that they needed ownership and they wanted to say. If I could give them a choice, even if it was a forced choice, they would typically take me up on my offer. What I realized is adults are the same way, right? They just want to be heard. I wanted a voice and I wanted a choice, and so I bet other people felt that way too. To begin with, I used the same strategies I used with my students with behavior disorders, and honestly, that's where I started, norms and expectations and voice and choice. It's a crazy way to start, but it worked perfectly.
Jon Eckert:
Well, it's not crazy.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
You went in knowing that you couldn't do it on your own and that you came from a position where you had wanted to have more leadership and not just voice or buy-in, but you wanted ownership.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
You stepped in and said, "Hey, that's what we're going to give." And what I love is use DC and Ryan's work that Daniel Pink popularized in Drive where you said, "Hey, people want choices."
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
With increased competence comes the desire for more autonomy, but it has to be autonomy within the parameters of, "What's the mission of the school?" You mentioned there were three words that you chose at the school. What were those three words? I didn't hear you say them, did I? Did you share them?
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah. Yeah, so the three words that we kind of navigated through and found in the original charter were flexibility, service, and connection. We actually voted on those words as a new staff, and we voted then to create norms and expectations for each other.
I can't remember all five my first year, but I remember one was see a need, fill a need. Our norms we've created now five years in a row, and we have staff norms that we work on together on our first day back to school where we vote, make tallies. We do a whole lesson on norms and expectations. Then the expectation is that in every meeting, in every sit-down, in every coffee bar chat, we're going to talk about norms and expectations, including with our parents, with our students. It's become just, well, for a better word, a norm in our system where we just always start with expectations. I think that really started us and grounded us, maybe focusing on the work. Flexibility, service, connection, every decision we make runs through those three words, and obviously that goes so well with the work of collective leadership. It was a win for sure.
Jon Eckert:
Well, what I love there, you just described Bill Coon, who is principal at Meadow Glen, I don't know if-
Ann Marie Taylor:
Oh my God, by the way, I'm a fangirl for Dr. Coon as well.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. He talks about the three buckets, and if it doesn't fit in those three buckets, they don't do it. We need more of those three bucket principles.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Flexibility, service, connection. I also love that you saw that you had the see a need, fill a need because that follows that tenet of collective leadership, that leadership's not about the position or the person, it's about the work.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
If you see that need and you fill that need and you do that with others, and others are following you and you're walking alongside, then you're leading.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Right, right.
Jon Eckert:
Why are we hung up on who's the official leader, who's not? See a need, fill a need. That's what leaders do, and that changes the culture of the school or builds the culture, in your case, because you all were starting from that place.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
That creates a very different dynamic where people aren't sitting around waiting for you as the lead learner to be telling them how they should be learning and what they should be leading. It's "We're doing this together." I think that's pretty powerful.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Well, and what's ironic about it is now they don't need me really. Sometimes I walk around and think, "God, the school board could fire me today and these guys would be just fine." But I guess that's what I've been trying to build, so I'm thankful that they don't necessarily need me in the same ways. Because their coaching skills have gotten so good over the years, I find myself a lot of times trying to copy them because they're just smarter than me now. I'm so thankful for that part.
Jon Eckert:
What you described, in my mind, is the ideal leader in a learning organization.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
You want them to not be dependent on you. You want to add value, but you want to have created these networks and webs that function regardless if you're there or not. Today you're home with a kid who needs you, and I'm sure Horse Creek Academy ran smoothly.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
That's powerful.
Ann Marie Taylor:
That's really a huge win. Honestly, that's what I'd worked towards because I knew what that looked like.
The other thing I think that's interesting is that we've kind of taken the work of CLI to a level that maybe even others haven't yet. Let me give you an example. We have three paraprofessionals on our leadership team that make just as many decisions as I do every day. These are people that don't necessarily have advanced degrees, but immediately when we got to know them, saw intense leadership capacity. It was like, "Let me get out of your way and figure out how you can do this." It's been so beautiful to watch folks that had always been, for example, a traditional teaching assistant in a special ed classroom, and would never move out of that pay grade or leadership level, to take on positions that are critical to the organization. Because of that, I can take a back burner with a lot of different things and spend an hour and a half of my day teaching students and reminding myself how hard it is and how intense it is and how important the relationship is.
When I have conversations with teachers, I can say, "Yeah, I totally get it," because I have 47 of them and they're pretty tough and most days I don't win. Some days I think I'm winning an Emmy and they're looking at me like they're not interested. That has been critical. It's not like I come into sub, it's like I have a credit-bearing course every single day that I show up to. What's even more ironic is that I teach it in an open area in our commons, so I get traffic throughout. I didn't cap the class. Most of our classes are 19 or less and I have 47, so I have to be on because I'm in front of everyone and they are watching me. It forces me to be a better version of myself as a teacher.
I learned that through the South Carolina Teacher of the Year program back in the day when people watched what we were doing, I innately got better. As a special ed teacher with no one ever watching you, you can really take a downward spiral in a lot of different ways. But because everybody was watching me because I was Teacher of the Year, I had to be on, and yeah, magically, it really made me a great teacher. That's how I feel now. Even when I want to be down and not really engaged and don't want to give it my all, I have to. That was on purpose too, so that's another strategy, but ...
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Well, the wisdom that comes, and I appreciate the humility in your description of why you do what you do, but having been Teacher of the Year and having had that recognition, clearly you know how to engage students and the best leaders that I know either really miss the classroom or they never leave it.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
You haven't left it and that's one of my favorite stories I've ever heard. 90 minutes a day in an open area with 47 students.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah, 9th through 12th, by the way.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. That's going to challenge any educator and to put yourself out there for others to see it, it not only allows you to remember what it is to be in the classroom, it builds so much credibility that, "Our leader or one of our leaders is doing this work alongside of us and in a way that anybody can see it." I think that goes a long way to building culture.
One of the things you mentioned before we jumped on about is your idea about moving too fast. Sometimes you feel like maybe you move too fast, but then you question, well, maybe that's just part of the kind of innovating and iterating that you're doing. What do you mean you might've moved too fast?
Ann Marie Taylor:
Well, I think the first few years of this work, we lost some people along the way. They had to jump off because we were moving too fast. They had to take a break because change was happening too frequently or they just weren't a fit. I think there was this, as an educator, we have this weird guilt and shame over almost every decision we make. I don't know if that's typical, but for me it was like, "God, people are leaving. I'm not the favorite. This isn't the best." Those kinds of things.
We had significant growth. To give you perspective, we had like 467 students when I got there, and this year we're at 1400.
Jon Eckert:
Wow.
Ann Marie Taylor:
We had insane growth, right overshadowing what happened with COVID or happening at the same time. I was building buildings, adding a high school, adding a career center. It was like drinking from the water hose, just 90 miles an hour. We lost people along the way and so I had some guilt and shame about moving too fast. But then I look back and think, "My God, if I wasn't risk-taking or being innovative or forcing people to move, number one, people might've stayed that shouldn't have." That's a harsh, honest reality. And it was clear where we were going, and sometimes we had to paddle and hold our heads just right above water because it wasn't perfect the whole way because we were making so much change and growing so fast.
For six months I had all of our high school and middle schoolers, when our building wasn't finished, at a church in a sanctuary and in a common space where we were all teaching. I thought, "This is crazy. I don't know why we've moved this fast. We're six months and we don't have our building, blah, blah, blah." But it built so much culture and climate collectiveness, and we were weaved in a way that we hadn't been before. That's really a lot of where we got to know each other, in that sanctuary and in that main space.
Even though you look along the way and think, "Wow, it's been a wild ride," you can look back and think, "Well, that's what innovation looks like a little bit." If you want to be a risk-taker and be innovative, sometimes you have to feel like you're drowning just for a little bit.
Good news is it wasn't just me. I had a team of 30 people on a leadership team. At least we could hold each other while we were drowning instead of me being by myself, and so really don't know if we'd survive without collective leadership.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and I think that's right. I have one phrase in the Leading Together book, "It's not that many hands make light work, it's many hands make the work possible."
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
When you're going that fast, you can't go that fast on your own. You're going to lose some people on the way and while you're losing people, which is sad to lose people, maybe they were not the right people to be on the bus, as Jim Collins talks about in Good to Great. It may be that fast-moving, we have a lot of kids who need what we're providing and we're providing it in these awkward spaces, but we're going to do it, that makes you really appreciative when you get into a space that's not everybody in a sanctuary or in the-
Ann Marie Taylor:
Oh, gosh.
Jon Eckert:
... common space. I think that builds culture. You don't do it in order to build culture, but because of the work you did that created a very different dynamic for the people that were there at Horse Creek, that then feeds the people who come in because you know what you're coming into. This isn't a place to just sit back and relax.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Well, what's funny is now when I interview people, I've gotten to be blatantly honest. "Here's what it looks like." I'm like, "Hey, you'll probably never have a title that you're looking for and you might not even have an office. I know for sure we'll give you a desk and chair to sit somewhere at some point, but that's kind of how we roll." We have to be super-flexible because of the growth and so a lot of us don't have classrooms and share spaces and all those kinds of things. But I wouldn't have it any other way because when you walk in, there's an energy and a beauty and almost like it feels like a miracle to me just because I've been in so many schools and so many classrooms, and I know that it feels that way to other people because they tell me. I forget along the way until I visit somewhere else and come back. But it is very ... There's lots of movement, there's lots of energy, there's lots of relationship. Most nights I go to bed and pray that this will last just a little longer because I know it's not typical. Then the other side of me is like, "Oh my gosh, we have to announce this to the world because we are single-handedly going to save the profession. "
Jon Eckert:
Love that. Go with that to latter impulse there. I do think we need to trumpet these things because there are places like Horse Creek around that are doing these things, and the world has a great need for it.
I think I mentioned this when I was with you all. I was at a UNESCO conference where I was speaking and it was trying to address the fact that there are 250 million school age kids who do not have a school to go to. A place like Horse Creek is truly a blessing and so you need to lean into that and love the fact that that's what you've built. I think what I'd like to move to now is just our lightning round to see how well you can do this.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Uh-oh.
Jon Eckert:
Word, sentence, or phrase, we'll go with four or five questions here.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Okay.
Jon Eckert:
First one, what is the worst piece of advice you've either given or received?
Ann Marie Taylor:
Worst piece of advice I was ever given is, "Start the year in August like you hate them and then discipline will be in check by December."
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, no. Yeah.
Ann Marie Taylor:
That's not me. If I'm going to do the opposite of what they tell me, I'm going to make sure I'm good at it. The opposite of that, of course, would be, "Man, build relationships from the moment you get them so that they will eat from your hands," so to speak. That was definitely the worst advice I've ever been given. But man, old, veteran teachers always want to tell you that when you first start.
Jon Eckert:
I know. 80% of the people that come on our podcast, that's the piece of advice that they're given that's bad and it's so sad. I love in your bio that you have is the "Lead learner, Horse Creek Academy. Ann Marie is a hot mess, in a fabulous way of course." That's welcoming because we're all kind of a hot mess when we're honest and that welcomes people in and makes them feel that.
What's the best piece of advice you've either given or received?
Ann Marie Taylor:
My very first year going to get, so I have an undergraduate in criminal justice, and I have a master's in arts of teaching students with learning disabilities. I'm getting this master's degree. I've been to Catholic school my whole life, never been in a public school before. They don't have a classroom with kids with learning disabilities, but they have this little classroom in Florence, South Carolina with kids with severe and profound disabilities that I was going to do my student teaching in.
I walked in to ... I can pick on her because she knows I pick on her, but she would wear, Kathy, my mentor, long dresses, angry special ed teacher, been doing this forever, doesn't really make eye contact. I was scared to death. It's the advice I've lived with, she said, "My job as your teacher is to make you better than I was ever as a teacher." I think about Kathy all the time and think about the people I work with and just making them better. That was advice that I think, God, has been used in every facet of my life.
Jon Eckert:
I love that. That's a beautiful image for a teacher.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah, she's amazing.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. What's one of your favorite books you've read in the last year? It could be education-related, it could be anything.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Oh, probably either a book called Joy.
Jon Eckert:
Mm.
Ann Marie Taylor:
It was the Dalai Lama, and I'm not remembering the other author, so forgive me, but I was doing some research because second semester I teach Psychology of Happiness. I was doing some research on joy, and that was pretty powerful. But a book that I just reread that is my all-time favorite book ever, at least right now, is Dare to Lead by Brene Brown.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, yeah. It's hard to beat that.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah, those two have been important. I've been reading a lot on happiness because here I am, I'm going to teach this class, and I really don't know anything other than what I heard on a happiness podcast by Dr. Laurie Santos. I had to read a whole bunch of happiness books to try to get my material together.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Well, that's great. I always differentiate joy and happiness, that happiness is circumstantial, but joy is something that can be deep and profound and abiding. Yes, the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yes, there you go.
Jon Eckert:
They wrote the Book of Joy. Yeah, it has to be fascinating to get that take.
The next thing, I guess two last questions. What's the biggest challenge you see ahead for educators? We've been in CLI, you've been in for five years, I've been studying you for eight years. I see your data every year because the one who writes it up and reports on it. There's a lot of great things going on at Horse Creek, but what do you see as the biggest challenge facing educators right now?
Ann Marie Taylor:
If we don't figure out a way to celebrate and honor our teachers, I have a fear that the profession is going to dwindle down to a room or a school full of substitutes. I feel so lucky that I have no positions for next year. I feel so lucky that we've already hired and done all that, but the only reason we're in that position is because we do things different. We have onsite daycare for our staff, babies and toddlers, which is such a huge win. No faculty meetings, podcasting. I spend $4,000 a month on our coffee bar to make sure that we have creamer and coffee and snacks at every building. Full-length pictures. I could go on and on with the little things, but I feel like if people don't do something drastically different, we are not going to be winning and I just think that there are way too many great educators out there to not be winning at this.
I don't mean winning just with test scores.
Jon Eckert:
No.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Test scores are important and we have been making gains, but to say that I'm not an excellent school, it's funny to me. Yeah, our report card's not excellent yet in South Carolina, and it will be at some point. But for me, if we don't as school leaders and school leadership teams and even districts start measuring other things, I think we're going to lose what we have. I think there's more to measure. I love to talk about our efficacy data. I love to talk about our student retention and our teacher retention rates. I love to talk about case studies and scenarios of kids and teachers and relationships and how things are different. I think there's so much more than the state-driven report card, and I think it's time to start talking about it because I don't think we're going to be around if we don't.
Jon Eckert:
Well, yeah, and your efficacy data is off the charts, and we know that's the single biggest factor John Hattie's team found for impacting those student learning outcomes, so totally agree. I definitely feel that challenge as well. I think that's real. But what's your greatest hope right now for education as you look at it through the lens of Horse Creek and your experience as South Carolina Teacher of the Year, all the different hats you've worn? What gives you the most hope?
Ann Marie Taylor:
The relationships that we have with our students and that they have with one another. I can think about our graduating class this year or our 400 high school students, and I think about their ability to work together and be creative and be innovative. There's great hope in that, that there's going to be a handful of people that really do expect voice and choice, and they're not going to stand for it otherwise. In my generation, teachers will stand for a whole lot that they shouldn't. We accept lack of autonomy, and we accept moving in a snail's pace sometimes and these kids won't. For that, amen. I feel like there could be some real innovation and change because they're not going to stand for it. They have boundaries set and good for them because I never did that.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Love that, that's a great place to wrap up. I love that we focus on relationships and kids, and there's a lot of great stuff going on. We just need to highlight that and get off our negativity bias.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Dr. Ann Marie Taylor, thank you for being with us today. Thanks for all you do.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Well, just lean in to the fact that you're a nerd fangirl situation here, and I'm so thankful for people that spend their time doing research to help us navigate what this looks like and to navigate it well, because your research and what you've done matters. I just am so thankful and I know everybody at Horse Creek is thankful as well.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, well, hey, thank you. It's great to highlight your work.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert engages with Ted Cockle, a colleague and educator at Baylor University. Cockle shares insights from his experiences and philosophies on what it means to be human and how to foster meaningful education.The discussion also covers the importance of relationships in student success, emphasizing that students flourish when they have supportive relationships with non-parent adults who engage in meaningful conversations about purpose and transcendence.Additionally, the conversation explores practical classroom strategies, such as creating engaging and participatory environments, and the importance of viewing knowledge as a gift to be shared.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Transcription:
Jon Eckert:
Hey, we're here today with Ted Cockle, a good friend and colleague who gets to teach in the leadership minor at Baylor University with me, has a great background. So Ted, thanks for being with us today.
Ted Cockle:
Yeah, excited to be here. Thanks so much.
Jon Eckert:
And could you just give us a quick 30,000 foot view of how you ended up in the office right next to mine at Baylor University teaching all different majors, leadership principles.
Ted Cockle:
Yeah, it's pretty wild. I usually go back to, I've always wanted to be a doctor. When I was a kid, I wanted to be a doctor. I love figuring out how stuff works and what's more complicated than the human body? And it took me a little while, but then I realized that wasn't it. I needed more complicated systems. There were more other systems to look into. I was a systems guy. I wanted to figure out all those things. Ultimately led me to start climbing the philosophical ladder. And that got me up to the most complicated and most enduring questions of what does it mean to be human and what does it mean to flourish? And so I am a doctor, as my boys remind me, not the kind that can help people.
Jon Eckert:
That's right.
Ted Cockle:
But a doctor nonetheless, helping us think through what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to flourish? I think those are inherently leadership questions and ones that I help my students explore.
Jon Eckert:
So I'm so grateful that you're here. We both had the experience of being at Wheaton College, me a few years before you, but that formational liberal arts education that we got there plays out in the work that we get to do with kids today. And most of our audience that listens to just schools or K-twelve educators. So what do you see as some of the key themes that you think really matter for educators to keep in mind as they deal with the practical realities of the classroom that we exist in today?
Ted Cockle:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that liberal arts education really formed me. So going to Wheaton and then even the program that I did here helped really think through pulling on a number of different disciplines. And I think that's plays out in the classroom, helping students make connections, for me, that's my goal. So there's so many different specialties and so many different areas on campus in a college university setting, lots of different silos and things. I view my goal as creating a space for them to pull those threads together. So you're asking about practical implications. I just read something the other day that it was something to the effect of, I used to walk into the classroom and say, "All right, students, quiet down, quiet down. It's time for..." But now this educator was talking about how he walks into the classroom and he says, "All right, put your phones away. Let's talk." It's silent. The classroom's silent when you walk in.
And I find that is often the biggest challenge that I face in the classroom is how do you get students engaged? How do you get them to think? And that's why I love thinking about those things that pull the threads together because there's an immediate need. And I love seeing that moment when laptops get folded down, iPads get turned over or turned off. Phones get put back in pockets because students' eyes are now, wait, that's a question I've been asking. So how do I start with where the student is at to help engage them with a question that they've been perhaps wrestling with but didn't know and they're like, wait, wait, wait. Yeah, no. I don't know the answer to that. I don't always get it. I definitely don't always get it. But you know it when you see it. And those are those moments that are so life-giving as an instructor.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. Early childhood teacher shared this quote I share it all the time. No profession can compete with the spark between souls that occurs between teachers and students. So those sparks are what keep you coming back.
Ted Cockle:
That's right.
Jon Eckert:
What I think, I always am very clear to our K through 12 sisters and brothers that our work is way easier than theirs is. These are students that made it all the way through high school, got admitted into Baylor, chose to be in our class and are paying tuition to be there. And so when I'm complaining about the challenges of engaging students, I realize that that really sometimes falls on deaf ears in a K through 12 world where they're dealing with so many of these issues with students that aren't as formed as ours are. They haven't been able to manage some of the impulses that they have. So I'm curious if there are a couple of mindset shifts that you think are important for us to think about what it really means, because I love where you started. What does it mean to be human as an educator? That's our job is to help students think about this. So what are a couple key things that you do or you think about, the ways you think about things that help you do the things that make it meaningful for kids?
Ted Cockle:
Just on your point about K-12 instructors, that's honestly where I go for most of my practical advice is my brother-in-law, who's a high school English teacher, visiting his class transformed the way that I teach in the classroom, even down to a recent text exchange we had last week where he suggested doing a speed dating or speed friending idea, talking through ideas and working through things. So I implemented that and it worked great. Great conversation. So thankful for him. Shout out to Jake Krogh there on the podcast.
Jon Eckert:
Another Wheaton grad. There we go.
Ted Cockle:
Another Wheaton grad indeed. So yeah, practical shifts there. I think this can be philosophical, but it then leads into a practical implication. What is actually happening in the classroom space? How are we actually fundamentally pursuing knowledge? If knowledge, this comes from a great book that I'm super thankful for called Intellectual Appetite. What is the pursuit of knowledge? It's an appetite. We are pursuing, learning about the nature of reality. But there's two ways that we can do that. There's an ordered way of pursuing knowledge and then a disordered way of pursuing knowledge. An ordered way of pursuing knowledge recognizes that knowledge is a gift that comes from above, comes from the Lord, and we are seeking to understand and better understand his world, how he's created us, what's going on and how we make order out of chaos in this world. A disordered way of pursuing knowledge sees it as something to be hoarded, something to be garnered for myself, for my own purposes so that I can effectively be God.
I'm controlling it, I'm grasping it, I'm squeezing. It's mine and my own. And then I set up barriers as to who can have access to it. That has massive implications. And that's how I start every single one of my classes the beginning of fall, what kind of classroom are we going to have here? What kind of classroom do we want to be? How do we want to be known as a class? Do we want to be hoarders of knowledge or are we wanting to be pursuing knowledge as stewards who are recognizing this is knowledge that's been passed on to us from someone else, and then we are seeking to steward it until we can pass it on to someone else. That then creates this multiplicative chain of knowledge. Me passing on knowledge does not diminish my knowledge, but enhances and expands our overall understanding of what knowledge is.
Practically in the classroom this means we're going to ask hard questions. We're running towards challenging questions. We're never shying away from them. And I want students to know that, particularly in this age where I think students at times are fearful to speak up. The reason why the one-on-one interactions or group discussions work so well is because they feel a little bit safer. They're nervous in a big group setting to articulate an idea that might be controversial, but it's amazing what we can get to. By the end of the semester they'll start saying things like, Oh, this is a studious space, which is the language that this author uses for the ordered pursuit of knowledge.
Studious space, is this right? Can I understand this? Am I understanding this correctly? Or Dr. Cockle, can you explain that to me for the sixth, seventh, eighth, ninth time, I still don't get it. And being willing to see them as whole persons pursuing an ordered vision of knowledge, an ordered pursuit of knowledge. So those are just some of the practical ways that I see that. That's how I handle it in the classroom, start that way. And then I remind them of that language throughout the semester. I think that's been pretty helpful.
Jon Eckert:
Love that, because you and I both get to teach the capstone leadership class. And so we have about 15 to 20 people in that class, they are not huge classes, but trying to get the discussion going is challenging in an ordered way. And so, one of the things I did, and we've talked about this, I did this semester because I felt I needed to do it, was we printed out all the readings for the semester. There's about 25 different authors they read. It's about a 650-page course pack. We put it in a binder and we gave it to them at the beginning of the semester and said, Hey, for this class, all you will need is the text, a pen, paper, and each other.
Because we wanted the focus to be on these hard questions, these deep meaningful questions, some of which they've never wrestled with because I find one of the things that a lot of students have not done when they get to me when they're 21, 22, they haven't engaged deeply on these things because they're hard, and they haven't developed the cognitive endurance and Oh, I can just google that, or I can use AI. Well, AI is just consensus. It's not wisdom. How do we get to wisdom? And that's what we need humans for because we are made in the image of God and we can point each other toward those things. And in that relationship, there's that depth. So one of the things I love about you in your classes is you don't shy away from the hard questions, but then you also have this life-on-life perspective.
I know you've been meeting with one of a great student who's a junior here at Baylor. You've been meeting with him I think every week since freshman year in a mentoring role. So talk about how you live life with students, which I think as a huge blessing as a college professor that we get to do this. But talk a little bit about how you do that outside the classroom as well.
Ted Cockle:
Yeah, it starts in the classroom. In the classroom, but before class, I think a lot of times we can, even us professors are focused on ourselves. We're nervous before a lecture. Yes, we get nervous still before lectures, before discussions. Is this going to go well? Is this going to be a good one? Did I prepare enough? Did I read this? Do I understand this enough before the students? And so we can be introspective, we can be using that time. We're in the classroom maybe five, 10 minutes before to shuffle around. But I've really tried to make a commitment that I'm in the classroom no later than five minutes before class and hopefully 10 minutes before, and that's time where all my files are already set up. I'm ready to go and I can focus on students. So I come in, how's it going? I know their names.
I'm asking them, how was your weekend? What did you do? What made it great? What made it challenging? Or if a student is clearly in a state of a disarray or perhaps a little flustered or, "Oh, I'm only on four hours of sleep." "Oh, why?" So seeing them as humans outside of our classroom is the place it has to start. They're not just minds on sticks that come in, receive knowledge and then depart, but they're well-rounded students and whole persons. That's part of what it is to be a whole person, is that we're not just our minds, but we are everything else that's happening in our life.
Jon Eckert:
Which makes teaching a lot more interesting.
Ted Cockle:
It really does. It helps with illustrations too, because I've had a conversation with so-and-so, now I can bring this point home by illustrating something in an abstract sense in a way that doesn't reveal what's going on in their life, but can help speak directly to what's going on. Much like a sermon being given to a particular congregation at a particular moment. I think lectures in classrooms, discussions in classrooms are learning experiences that are given to a particular group at a particular time for a particular reason. And that's why AI can't be a professor. That's why AI can't be teachers. The teaching occupation, teaching profession is unique and it requires humans interacting with other humans in humanly ways. So now I've lost the thread of your question, but, no mentorship, life on life. So then those often lead to follow-up conversations. Students will pop in always asking the follow-up conversation, how's it going? What's going on? What are your thoughts on the class even? Giving them opportunities to evaluate and push back.
Some of my classes, I require time for them to come into office hours to get to know them. I know you do that as well. I've got a teaching vocation class this semester. We're dealing with some pretty big issues about what it means to be human and what it means to flourish. Go figure. And I want them to come in and we're going to talk about it. So I've had a couple of those meetings and I've got a couple more coming up in the next couple of weeks. I can't begin to tell you how fun it is to dive deep into those conversations in a one-on-one setting would make it easy. There's hospitality involved. I've got tea and coffee and hot chocolate, whatever they're wanting to drink, maybe some cookies or something. And we're having a conversation. It's not about a grade, it's about the ideas. So I think that's a huge part of it, and my topic lends itself to that. But other topics can as well, whether you're a math teacher, a physics teacher, or whatever.
Jon Eckert:
Well, because we are humans, so one of the things that we've been able to do over the last 15 years is have students into our home. And Jake, you're a brother-in-law and students for years at Wheaton and now at Baylor where they come in Sunday for lunch and they see our family and whatever status it's in. And we have plenty of food. I'm cooking, so it's one of six meals, but there's always plenty. And our kids that have grown, we now have a 2018 and 15-year-old. They've had college students that are a few steps ahead of them in our home for 15 years. And so it's not just, I think sometimes students think that teachers are just doing things for them, but we get great benefit from the relationships we have with students. So Tavis, the student that you meet with, he is a huge blessing. I had him in our leadership capstone class.
And so it's not just a one-way relationship where we're pouring into a student and we get nothing back. It's this reciprocal learning that we know our content, but seeing it through their eyes and the way they apply it to their context enriches the understanding. And that's why in my classroom where I said, all you need is the text in each other and this, you don't need devices in here. It wasn't a, we're not going to have in a punitive way. You have this rich humanity right here that'll allow you to understand these texts and these big ideas better if we're focused in that way. So again-
Ted Cockle:
That's brilliant-
Jon Eckert:
... I always say we have the best jobs in the world.
Ted Cockle:
Oh yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Because this is amazing. We get to tackle these questions. This is our job to tackle these questions.
Ted Cockle:
And the joy after years, Tavis is a junior, he's still a student, and I had him as a student, but now I view him almost more as a friend than anything. That's the primary identity that he's grown into. And we swap stories about fun movies that we've been watching, and then we'll talk about vocation and calling and meaning and purpose. And I'll share about things that I'm thinking about. He's sharing things he's... It's friendship. It was founded on intellectual friendship and community that then leads to full on.
Jon Eckert:
One of the things I wanted you to spend a little bit of time talking about, because you've worked on this instrument for K through 12 schools looking at faith formation in schools. So talk a little bit about the way you think about that. I think a little bit differently than a lot of the formation tools that are out there. We have, it's very difficult to observe what's happening internally in someone.
Ted Cockle:
That's right.
Jon Eckert:
So faith formation is challenging. So talk a little bit about how you think about that with K through 12 and even in college students, because I know you do a lot of thinking about this.
Ted Cockle:
Yeah. I'll start in saying you can't map the Holy Spirit. A friend of mine-
Jon Eckert:
Good caveat.
Ted Cockle:
Yes, a friend of mine is, he's a mechanical engineering guy, and he's telling me these stories about integrating faith with learning. And his primary one is that after decades and decades in technology and all these things, we still can't map the wind. And he goes, "I think that's the perfect image right there," because the spirit is like the wind. We cannot map it, we can't trace it. We can draw close to it. We get closer to the root, but we can't map it. We don't know where the wind is going to go. And I love that image. And yet I think we can get closer and closer to the root. What I mean by that is we often, when looking at faith, we start particularly in the K-12 spaces, we start with exemplars. We have models of what we'd like our graduates to be like, graduate profiles. They're this. They've got this virtue and that virtue, and they're exemplifying faith. They're reading their Bible every day. And these are wonderful visions of things to aim for.
And we should hold up exemplars. Exemplars inspire us to be like them. So I love that. But it can't stop there, because oftentimes those exemplars are known for either their belief or their behavior. And we're seeing faith evaluated on the base of their cognitive ascension to particular doctrines, important, or their ability to produce particular fruits, particular behaviors, particular practices of the Christian faith. Also very important. But the reality is our beliefs in our head, our behaviors in our hand, they come from somewhere. There's something closer to the root. A good tree bears good fruit. It's not that the fruit makes the tree good. In scripture the tree is always the source of the fruit. The good tree bears the good fruit.
So we need to be careful of the direction here because our behaviors could be, as one scholar writes, Paul Tripp, he writes, we could staple fruit to a tree, but stapling a plump apple to a dead tree does not make that tree come alive. So what if the faith practices that we're upholding is exemplary or measuring as an indicator of faith are actually just being fruit stapled, the right thing, but for the wrong reason. What happens? We've missed it then. Or what if they have the right knowledge, but again, for the wrong reason, maybe they have a disordered pursuit of knowledge and it's hoarding it and it's saying, look how amazing I am. I know all these theological truths, or look how amazing I am. I serve all these different things, but they're missing the key posture that's there. And so, one of the things I've been thinking about, and one of the things that we've been trying to wrestle with and think through is could we measure something that's a little bit closer to the root, so to speak, closer to the trunk of the tree that's bearing good fruit?
And I think the answer there is the heart. How can we measure the affections of a student? Now that's hard to do. It's a latent reality. Again, we're not mapping the spirit. You can't do that. But I think we can begin to get a semblance of understanding a student's posture. And we can do this in college. We can do this in K-12 settings. And we've done it by trying to ask how are they identifying? A lot of the psychological research is using matters of salience, things that are front of mind. If it's front of mind, it's part of the way that you're seeing yourself. It's part of the way that you're identifying yourself. It's part of the narrative identity that you are taking on as you begin to develop your sense of who you are. So if faith and identifying with the Christian narrative is close to their mind and salient, then it's often going to be close to their heart.
Those things that are close to our heart are usually the things that we talk about most. They are indicators of deeper senses of desire that are the source of motivation. So when we're talking about faith formation in a school setting, I think we need to be careful not to just focus on belief, not to just focus on behavior and not just to focus on the heart, but how can the three of those work together in tandem to know the good, to love the good, and to do the good. Knowledge, the head, love, the heart, do, the hands.
Jon Eckert:
Love that. Love that. Well, we're going to move into what's front of mind for you now-
Ted Cockle:
Sure. Sure.
Jon Eckert:
... which is our lightning round. So we generally ask for word, phrase, or sentence about a question that I will ask at random, which you've not been prepared for. So we'll start with this one. What's your favorite book you've read in the last year? I know you're always reading, but what's your favorite book that it just pops to mind? What's front of mind?
Ted Cockle:
Front of mind is probably the book Character Gap by Christian Miller. He talks about this idea that perhaps we're not as good as we think we are, and perhaps we're not as bad as we could be. We often live more often. We often live more often. Good. That's clear. We often live somewhere in that character gap, as he calls it. So what do we do?
Jon Eckert:
What's his background? Is he a-
Ted Cockle:
He's a psychologist at Wake Forest.
Jon Eckert:
All right, all right. Hey, that-
Ted Cockle:
Yeah. Great Christian guy.
Jon Eckert:
... sounds fascinating. Sounds fascinating. All right. Worst piece of advice you've ever received as an educator or a scholar?
Ted Cockle:
Let's see.
Jon Eckert:
Or as a dad or as a husband, you can go anywhere with this.
Ted Cockle:
Worst piece of advice in the academic setting I think is probably just survive.
Jon Eckert:
Okay. That's bleak.
Ted Cockle:
It's a little bleak. It's like, well, it's going to be so hard and you're going to do all these things. And rather than being proactive and thinking about what might lead to flourishing.
Jon Eckert:
That's good. Best piece of advice you've ever either given or received.
Ted Cockle:
Yeah. Rest in Christ.
Jon Eckert:
Good reminder. That's a lot better than survive.
Ted Cockle:
Yes, indeed it is. And I think it comes back to what I was talking about earlier where a lot of times we're focused in on ourself, but when we're resting in Christ, we are free from the preoccupation of the self. So the advice is a reminder for me always. And it's one that I'm constantly reminding myself to look up for my own naval gazing and see who needs the good works that the Lord's prepared for me.
Jon Eckert:
So we get to work with 18 to 22 year olds in general, what makes you most concerned about our students that are 18 to 22?
Ted Cockle:
We taught on ethics today. I asked the question, how do you know what's good? Crickets. How do you know and begin to evaluate what's good? They didn't have any answers. When I put them into small groups, still didn't have any answers. When I drummed up, I don't know if that's a proper term, but when I started asking, dredging for answers, it was things like the law, what people tell you, what you feel.
Jon Eckert:
That's what happens when you're in an unmoored society that's lost touch with what truth is, and especially truth in love. And it's very hard to exist in any kind of way because you live in this individualized relativistic, what's right for me may not be right for you. And so if that's the heuristic, you're in trouble. What makes you most optimistic?
Ted Cockle:
Oh, the fact that there are good people having good conversations with students. I think the number one thing that continues to be a determining factor of a student succeeding and flourishing in life, in college, is whether or not they have a relationship with somebody who's not their parent. And when in that relationship, they have conversations about meaning and purpose when they talk about transcendent things, this continues to be the number one indicator of a student flourishing, working towards success. All the numbers, students are often finding this in church settings. They're finding this in teachers, they're finding this in coaches. So the fact that there are people pouring into students all around the world, that gives me hope.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, the number two factor, according to Gallup in K through 12 education that indicates student engagement is I have an adult who makes me excited about the future. And that's it. It's those questions because we all have them.
Ted Cockle:
Totally. And I think sometimes we think it's more complicated than that. We want a new intervention, we want a new idea. We want the silver bullet. But you know what? It's showing up day after day and having a conversation, just saying, how are you doing today? And if the opportunity arises, sometimes it does. Students having a tough day, you can ask that next question. And then the next one and the next one. Probably then you're going to start talking about things of meaning and purpose.
Jon Eckert:
And it's not always convenient at the time that works best for you. In fact, it almost never is.
Ted Cockle:
Often not indeed.
Jon Eckert:
But thank you for taking the time to show up and talk today. Appreciated the conversation. Appreciate all you do, Ted.
Ted Cockle:
Yeah, it's my joy. Thank you so much for having me.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert engages with Alyssa Gallagher to discuss the intricacies of educational leadership and the importance of creating a culture of feedback. Alyssa highlights the optimism that persists among educational leaders despite high stress levels, noting the concept of "gritty optimism" as a key trait for effective leadership. Jon emphasizes the difference between naive and gritty optimism, celebrating the resilience of leaders who remain hopeful through challenges.Alyssa shares insights from her book "Messy Leadership for Schools," co-authored with Rosie Connor, and delves into the significance of collaborative problem-solving and shared decision-making in educational settings. She underscores the need for leaders to give themselves permission to pause and reflect, reducing burnout and enhancing their capacity to lead effectively.The discussion also covers practical strategies for fostering a feedback-rich environment, such as using the "www.evi" (what worked well, even better if) method to frame feedback positively. Alyssa stresses the value of frequent, constructive feedback and the importance of creating a neutral, non-defensive atmosphere for receiving feedback.Additionally, the conversation explores the Eisenhower Prioritization Matrix as a tool for helping leaders manage their time and prioritize tasks, distinguishing between urgent and important responsibilities. Alyssa and Jon advocate for a shift from a superhero mindset to one of shared leadership, where empowering others and co-creating solutions become central to effective educational leadership.To learn more, order Alyssa and Rosie’s book, "Embracing MESSY Leadership."The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jill Anderson and Dr. Jon Eckert engage in conversation about the profound impact of educators and the importance of recognizing their contributions. Jon tells us inspiring anecdotes of teachers who have made a lasting difference in students' lives, reflecting on the transformative power of kindness and support in education. Jon recounts a personal experience from his own schooling, to emphasize the enduring influence of a compassionate teacher. They explore the crucial role of validation and collaboration between educators and parents in nurturing children's well-being and development. While acknowledging the challenges educators face, such as burnout and high expectations, they also highlight the resilience and hope inherent in the teaching profession. The dialogue focuses on the significance of prioritizing joy, growth, and meaningful connections in education, beyond mere academic success. Ultimately, the conversation stands as a heartfelt tribute to educators, celebrating their tireless dedication and profound impact on shaping young lives.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcslMentioned:The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan HaidtBad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up by Abigail Shrier Transcription:Jill:Hi, my name is Jill Anderson and I'm the director of the Center for School Leadership. Jon is with me here, and we're going to flip the script today, and I will be asking the questions. Jon has heard and experienced so many incredible stories from educators across the world. And so to celebrate the Teacher Appreciation Week, we wanted to share some of those stories to encourage and to inspire the good work that each of the educators out there are doing to help each student flourish. So we'll go ahead and get started with the first question. Can you share a story or two of an inspiring teacher?Jon:Yeah. So as we always talk about, we have the best job in education because this is what we do. We just go all over the world and find good things that are happening and try to highlight those, elevate those, and spread those ideas. And they're always built around human beings. And so these stories of cool things happening, I have a ton of those and we'll share them throughout the episode today. But I have to go all the way back to my first grade because that's now I guess about 43 years ago, that would be, that I was in first grade, and this is still as memorable as something that happened yesterday to me. And that's where the power of an educator comes in into the life of a student, where that educator comes alongside and helps that kid become more of who they're created to be. So this happened.The first part of it, it's not such a great teaching example, the second part is good, so stick with me. So I'm in art class. I love art. It's one of my favorite parts of the day. We're getting ready for Halloween, so we're making witches and so we're having to cut out the circle part of the head. And Mrs. Fleshy, the art teacher who've been doing it for quite a while and was a little grumpy, but she's been managing elementary kids in art for probably 30 years, so that could wear anybody down. But she's going around and passing out the scissors. And I don't know if people that are listening, if you're old enough to remember this, but left-handed scissors were always green-handled scissors. And so I knew I was left-handed, but I'd also been diagnosed with dyslexia. And so I had a really hard time knowing which hand was which. I had a hard time reversing words, you could put was and saw on top of each other.And I knew they were different, I couldn't tell you how. Six and nine, B and D they felt like they were invented by Satan just to confuse me. And so I get the scissors and she's watching me because I think she didn't believe I was left-handed. And I put them on my right hand. She's like, she snatched them from me. She's like, "Oh, you're not left-handed." And she gave me the silver-handled scissors.Jill:So sad.Jon:And I was like, "Ah, but I..." And she's moved on to the next person. And so then we're trying to cut out these circles. And if you remember the old scissors at least, if you had them on the wrong hand they did not cut. And so I'm sitting there so frustrated because I cannot get the scissors to cut the paper with my right hand, which I know I'm supposed to have on my right hand and I can't cut with my right. So I try on my left and then they really don't work. And so I start to cry because I'm that frustrated. And Mrs. Fleshy from the front of the room, she says to me, and I can still hear her, I can still smell her too actually, "Jon, if you're going to be disruptive, you need to just get out of class." I'm like, oh. So I go out of the class, I sit in the hallway and just tears are pouring down. And fifth graders are walking by me and sixth graders, and I'm just completely mortified but I can't stop.My first grade teacher, Ms. Thayer comes walking by and she's also been teaching for 30 years. I always say the best teachers in a building and the worst teachers in the building are typically the most veteran teachers, because they're either amazing and they have all that expertise or they're kind of just waiting for retirement. So you have that. So Ms. Thayer comes by and she sees me and she grabs me by my hand. And she takes me back to the room and we sit knee-to-knee in those little first grade chairs. And she asked me to tell her what happened. And so through those halting sobby breaths, I get out what happened? And she just looks at me and she says, "Mrs. Frischi shouldn't have done that to you." And then she gives me this big hug. And from then on I would run through a wall for that woman.And 43 years later, I still get chills thinking about the way she saw me, knew me and loved me in that moment just by breaking adult code saying, "Hey, that was wrong. And I know you weren't trying to be disruptive." And she gave me that hug and I was like, "Hey, I am forever loyal to you, Mrs. Thayer." So many other stories we see all around the world but I just thought I'd start with that one, because I don't think I've ever told that story very publicly. And so I was like, hey, Ms. Thayer needs to get honored wherever she's at now. I'm sure she's up in heaven at this point listening to this podcast.Jill:Yeah, I definitely had not heard that story, but that's such an amazing story to share it because of the validation, it's all it took. It was just to sit at your level and understand what you were going through and that was it. So it's not very hard to do, but it takes some time and thought to say, "Okay, I need to take a minute and see what this kid's going through."Jon:Exactly.Jill:So how can we celebrate teachers?Jon:So I think at the center, you're the director. It's great by the way having somebody else ask the questions because that's usually my role. So thank you for doing that. I think what we do is we just keep elevating the good work that's happening all over the place. There are amazing things happening that we see in the US. I've been to Australia, to England, I go to New Zealand this summer, and we're seeing amazing things happening with educators in public schools and private schools. And so just honoring the work of the profession and taking the time to listen and observe. I'll give you two quick examples where there's this reinforcing cycle of this relational component. That's where the hope always is, is in relationship. Teaching's one of the most human things we do. And so, I was in South Carolina last year. I was in a rural school and was in an early childhood classroom for at-risk kids and walked into this room and in the corner there's this tiny little wheelchair, which there's not much more depressing than a tiny wheelchair.And then a little guy who's less than 30 pounds laying on this mat, and he was just recovering from a seizure. And so he was really exhausted. He's trying to make eye contact with this teacher and he's making this noise. He's not verbal and he's making this noise, and you can tell he just wants the teacher's attention. And she's working with a small group of kids in the other corner. And she notices and she goes over and she just scoops him up, gives him a big hug, his head is on her shoulder and he's looking at me and he is so happy. And so the teacher just kind of offhandedly looks at me and she said, "Hey, sometimes we just need some snuggles." And that kid in that moment was seen, known and loved in that really simple way. And so I've given you a first grade example. I've given you an early childhood example.I want to jump ahead to validating what a high school teacher did. So she's got seniors, I'm not sure, I think she was either an English or a history teacher. And she was sharing this story at one of our professional learning sessions that we were doing last year. And she was recounting the fact that the office had called down to her room to let her know that her father had fallen and had a brain bleed they thought. And she needed to get to him as soon as possible. And so her students that were with her, they heard this because it came through. And before they would let her go, they all got around her and put hands on her and prayed for her before they would let her leave to go be with her father.Jill:That's so amazing.Jon:So that loving relationship, that part that we do it's not just a one way street. That comes back to us. It's not why we love kids so that they will love us back and it's not our job to be their friends, but when we see them, know them and love them, that gets reciprocated for us in a way that's just truly life-giving. So I think anytime we can find those life-giving things and lean into those and then elevate those to let people know all the amazing things that are happening in schools. We hear all the negative stuff because media has a negativity bias to it. But there are amazing things happening in classrooms all over the place. And so how do we see those relationships and the way kids are becoming more of who they're created to be because of the work that's going on in the classroom?Jill:Yeah, absolutely. Those are great stories to be able to share. So on that note, how do we bring more joy to the profession?Jon:So I think part of it is celebrating the right things. So when we think about joy or wellbeing or flourishing, sometimes people think of that as meaning freedom from struggle. And that's not what it is. To me, joy isn't circumstantial. Joy is in this deep abiding hope that there is more. And that joy isn't freedom from struggle but it's the freedom to struggle well. So how do we help educators see what they're doing in the lives of students that allows them to have the energy and fuel to do more? What does that look like for them? And then how do we celebrate that, because I think we've oversold wellbeing over the last few years that like, "Okay, that's really hard for you. You don't have to do that right now." And when we do that, that robs kids of the joy that comes from doing something that they didn't think they could do. And then they do it and they do it well, and there's great joy in that. So if we rob kids the opportunity to struggle, we also rob them of the opportunity to have joy.And so if we think about happiness as being something that we want kids to always feel happy, they're not going to grow very much. And we know all the way back to Vygotsky's own approximate development, the distance between what you can do on your own and what you can do with assistants where you push and stretch is where learning is. So learning is productive struggle. So how do we build that in without making it be a burnout thing? And we don't avoid burnout by getting Jeans day on Friday. That's nice. But where we really find meaning and joy is in celebrating the growth that we see. So if you want an educator to stay in education, help them see what's happening in my view as a Christian that the Lord is doing through them in the lives of a student. That's what gets you up in the morning, how do we keep seeing that and keep building on that.Jill:Absolutely. So you've talked a lot about using the phrase just a teacher. Can you talk a little bit about that, how we avoid using it as just a teacher and how we can switch that around to just teaching?Jon:Yeah. So the book Just Teaching, Feedback, Inclusion and Well-being for Each Student, plays on that phrase that, oh, I'm just a teacher, or, oh, they're just a teacher. And as educators we 100% have to stop referring to ourselves as just a teacher. Education is the profession that makes all others possible. There is great power in that role, and everyone has experienced this. If they've had a good teacher or their child has had a good teacher, the difference that makes. There is huge power in that. And we steal ourselves, we rob ourselves of that when we refer to ourselves as just a teacher. And so when we talk about just teachers, we're talking about teachers that teach for justice and flourishing by making sure each kid is seen, known and loved. And you do that by making sure they're well, that they're engaged and they get feedback. That we give them the opportunity to stretch.It's not to work ourselves into oblivion. It's not just continuing to add more and more to our plates. I think in some places burnout has become a badge of honor and educators think everything requires the extra mile. That's not it. How do we put the work on students that allows them to do the work that will allow them to flourish? And we take the work that's ours, but our job is to coach them through that, not do it for them.Jill:Exactly. Yeah, and even as a parent, I'm not a teacher, I haven't been a teacher, but as a parent I can see that in my own kids. And it's so hard to watch them go through that struggle, but once they get to the other side you're like, okay, this is a good thing that I did to help them grow in that area.Jon:Yeah. Well, we all know nobody wants to be stretched. It's no fun to be, but we all appreciate the benefit of the stretching on the back end.Jill:Yeah, absolutely. So speaking of being a parent, how as a parent can we support teachers in the best way?Jon:Well, I think we need to view our role as teachers, I'll start there, as being a partner of the parent and helping that kid flourish because regardless, in my view there are parents that do bad things for kids. But no parent wants to do things that harm their kid. They care about that kid more than anything else on earth. And sometimes as a teacher you sometimes scratch your head, well, I don't know why we're doing that. And parent-teacher conferences are always this eye-opening moment of, I can't believe that kid gets to school every day because of some of the stuff that goes on. But 95% of parents want what's best for kids. And I would say teachers are there too, nobody really goes into teaching because they want to harm kids. That's not a thing. So if we can keep our child the focus of the interaction and not get on the defensive as teachers or parents about hey...Because it's sometimes hard, especially if parents didn't have great experiences in schools, it's hard for them to come back into school and hear feedback that feels critical because it feels like they're being judged as a parent. And nobody wants to be judged or evaluated, we all want to get better. So how do we make getting better for the kid be our joint mission as parents and educators? And I think I'll go back to the joy piece, if we want our kids to experience joy and be the kind of human beings we want them to be, then we have to give them opportunity to struggle well. How can they stretch? And so that's where parents and educators can be great partners in that, what's the extracurricular activity that you need to really shine? You're not great in math, great, work harder at math. You can't just not do that. You're going go-Jill:Not do it, yeah.Jon:But then, oh, you really love art. Well, lean into art. What can you do there? You don't do art instead of math. You want to be a well-rounded human being that does it. The other thing I would encourage parents to do and this'll come into, I think you'll probably ask me for a book recommendation at some point, but as you think about who your kid's becoming, don't try to parent and engineer all of the pain out of their lives. You can't do it.Jill:That's good.Jon:You can't do it. And so how do you put those guardrails on where they know you're safe, they know that they are loved and nothing they do will change that love. However, some things they do may change how much they please you. So it's not like everything you do is fine. We just love you. You're all great. No, you can make some bad decisions that I am not going to be pleased about and I'm going to tell you. And here is wisdom from an adult who's been through all these things too, and here are some thoughts. And so the one place when I said that I was like, we really have to be smart with smartphones and social media. That is an introduced thing that didn't affect us as parents, and I'm so grateful I didn't have it. That world that's introduced there, the more as parents we can partner with schools to figure out the best ways to use technology. And how to create some freedom from it because it is oppressive. And no matter how much we think we're training them how to use it, adults aren't good at using their smartphones.Jill:I definitely am not either. I have to use the focus feature to be able to avoid it when I'm trying to do work.Jon:Right. If you've caught yourself, and I know I've done it when you and I have been talking, if you catch yourself talking to someone who's an embodied human being right in front of you and you get a buzz on your phone and you're paying attention to that, what are we doing? We're saying that's more important than this human being. So if adults are doing that, we really need to think through what that's like for people with underdeveloped frontal cortexes that allow them to discipline themselves with it. And so I think we really need to be thoughtful about that as parents, how can we do that in a way that allow our kids to really enjoy being with each other and figure out how to navigate life with other people?Jill:Yeah, absolutely. And I was going to ask you about book recommendations. I feel like you're leading into Anxious Generation. Is that the one that you were going to talk about?Jon:Well, we've been talking about... I just read that book last week by Jonathan Haidt, and I've been citing his article in the Atlantic from last summer about schools should ban smartphones, like hard stop ban smartphones. He also has the recommendation that anybody under the age that's not in high school should not have a smartphone, flip phones. Other ways to communicate fine, but no smartphones till high school and no social media until you're 16. And it's really hard to disagree with that. From what I've seen, I feel like kids are so much freer when they have that. And he gives an example in his book about his six-year-old daughter who's on her iPad, and she can't figure out what's going on that there are engineers in a multi-billion dollar industry whose job is to keep her paying attention to the iPad no matter what, because the kid is the product. That's what they're selling to advertisers, that's what they're selling. And she says to her dad, "Dad, can you take this away from me? I can't get my eyes off of it."Jill:Wow, that's really powerful.Jon:Yeah, and so I think that's really where we're. So The Anxious Generation, he has a lot of reasons why we're anxious. It's not just smartphone's bad, it's smartphones disrupt and stunt development for kids because we're not having the human interactions, everything's mediated through social media which is not real. So instead of looking, when I grew up in the '70s and '80s, especially for girls, you walk by the checkout at the grocery store and you see these models that are airbrushed and they look perfect and all this. Now, girls go on and they see that and these are their competition at school, and it's not real but it feels real. And so they curate their lives to look like something they're not, which just breeds all kinds of anxiety because it's not an embodied interaction. They're saying, "Oh yeah, I know that person. That person's like this. They're not like they're real or what it looks like on Instagram." So it's devastating. And then for boys, it's less the social media, it's more the gaming and the pornography that kids are finding at ages 10 and 11 where it's just wide open for them.Jill:So young, yeah.Jon:And again, there are features that are meant to try to limit it but if you can put in a fake birthday, you can get to just about anything. And so there's a lot of responsibility in technology, but I don't see them making a change because the incentives aren't there for them to change. I think as parents, we have to be the parents and say, "Hey, collectively, we're not going to do this." Because if you're the only parent doing it, that's really hard. And in the book, he suggests that get 10 families together that are going to commit to this, that we're not going to jump on this boat of social media, early smartphones all the time. And I think as schools, we have to make the hard decision to say, "Hey, for eight hours a day we're giving you a break from these" and not just don't have them out, because that becomes really hard to enforce in schools.It's these get turned into a pouch that's locked for the day, or these go into a smartphone locker for the day and then you get them at the end of the day. And parents, I would just encourage you to support your schools if they do that. A lot of parents are fighting it because you want immediate access to your kids. You have it, call the office. There are adults charged with taking care of your kid. Trust them to do that. If you trust them for eight hours a day, you can trust them to get an important message to your kid.Jill:Right. I've seen the attitude change just with my own kids. I have an 11-year-old, and so she recently got in trouble and got her phone taken away for a week. And she was an amazing kid. She's creative, she was drawing, she was involved in conversations, engaging, and then she got her phone back and we're like, Where did Bella go? Look, we haven't seen her." So it totally changes who they are. So yeah, I've seen it myself. So what advice would you give educators out there?Jon:So you've already picked up on some of it, so I'll just try to sum it up into a sound bite. Lean into joy, but don't think of joy as being lacking struggle. Where are you seeing growth in yourself as an educator? Where are you seeing growth in your classroom? Lean into that, celebrate that, that's where joy is. And so even when you talk about smartphones, it's not banning something. It's inviting kids into deeper engagement, into that human... When kids get to a camp and they don't have phones for a week and they get to try new things and get to be with other people like, oh, this is great. It's like the veil has come off, the haze that they're in is gone. It's like, oh, they look around there's this amazing world and these amazing people. And so I think we need the same thing for our classrooms. We need to lean into really why we got into teaching in the first place, and that's to help other people grow and become more of who they're created to be.Jill:Yeah, absolutely. So on the flip side, what would be the worst advice that you've heard?Jon:This is hard to say. I got an article out called The Wellbeing Myth, and I think we have oversold wellbeing. And I think it's bad advice to say that kids can't learn if you don't make sure everything's okay. I think we need to focus less on some of those, even the SEL stuff, social emotional learning pieces have been oversold. It's like do hard things together, that works. There was another line, this again goes back to Haidt's book, it maybe Haidt's book or it may be Bad Therapy. I've got two books now coming together in my head. But that parents, adults, or whatever, can help kids learn how to make friends. The way you learn how to make friends is you try to make friends. And it's great to have somebody that you can talk to, "Hey, I tried this and this didn't work very well and whatever." But there's not a recipe for making friends. Okay, be kind, do unto others as you want them doing to you. There's some basic principles. But you know how kids learn those? By trying to do it.So I think teachers and parents, I think sometimes we need to step back a little bit and let kids play more and try stuff more. The average kid in elementary school in the US right now gets 27 minutes a day of recess. That is tragic. That was the height of my day. I would go home with my basketball and kickball stats every day for my three recesses. I look back and I was like, recess was the greatest thing ever. And I might've learned more at recess than I did in the classroom about how to interact with human beings. So like, hey, step back. Give them some space. That's wellbeing. So worry more about the virtual world and worry less about the real world. Let the kids... Haidt has this great line, let them get bruises, not scars.Jill:I love that. That's really great. So what would you say is one of the biggest challenges that you see for educators in the year ahead?Jon:We have a really hard job as educators because so much is expected of educators. Every policy decision, every government action is like, we'll do this through schools because there are schools in every community. So more and more it gets layered on top of educators all the time. And it makes sense from a policy perspective. It's like you have a beach head into every neighborhood, but educators can't do everything. And when we try, we don't do any of it very well and we end up burned out. And so we are seeing amazing educators leave the profession and other people not wanting to go into the profession because teachers aren't making education look like a very appealing job, even though it's the greatest job ever. It doesn't look like that to students. And so that's a challenge and it's a vicious cycle that's continuing. So much is asked, I burn out, it doesn't look like an appealing profession and that's a challenge.Jill:Absolutely. So I want to end on a positive note, what's the thing that makes you the most optimistic as you look ahead?Jon:So our whole deal at the center is to focus on adaptive challenges and improvement that we can make. And so these are short cycle data collections, what can you do in 90 days that makes a difference for kids? And we're seeing teams of educators in schools literally all over the world, we're in 45 plus countries and all 50 states. And we're seeing people make improvement. Now, I don't like talking about solutions because I think solutions are often too pat and too oversimplified where improvement is, well, if you've got a dumpster fire, put the fire out first. You're not building the Taj Mahal while the fire is burning. So it's how do we make those gains and then that builds momentum, especially when you see teachers and students doing together. So I'll end with this really encouraging note that I saw last week. Well, I'll give you a specific example of something that just was super inspiring to me and then a system example. Is that okay?Jill:Okay. Yeah, that sounds great.Jon:All right. So the system example was in South Carolina, we've been working with these schools that are doing collective leadership all over the state for eight years. I'm the program evaluator and researcher so I've been studying this high school, Blythewood High School. And this year when they had their showcase of the progress they've made each year, they brought the students to do it. So I was in a session where juniors and seniors in high school were talking about the collective leadership of their educators, and the way that was affecting their system as students. And the way they were leading alongside educators. I was like, Oh-Jill:That's really cool.Jon:This is the dream. The kids own it. It's not buy-in, they own it. The other story I'll give, and this was maybe my favorite classroom visit from the last year where this makes me optimistic. Brad Livingstone, who's our first gent, he's the husband of our president, Linda Livingstone and I was in his history classroom. And he's an amazing history teacher. He teaches World War II history and Vietnam War history at a local school. And the teaching's amazing, I was there for the Do-little raids. It was amazing World War II, so I enjoyed that. But at the beginning of the class, he's having students report out how many veterans they thanked the past week. So every Monday morning they report in how many veterans they thanked for what they did. And he got them doing this, and he's done this for years in all the different schools he's been in. He drives a van full of them to HEB in the middle of the day at the beginning of the semester.And he said, "Go out and find people that are my age or older and ask them if they served in the military. And if they do, introduce yourself, thank them for their service."Jill:That's awesome.Jon:And so they go out in teams and do that, and then he's like, "Now it's on you. You got to do this." And you got to get 50 this semester. And if you get 50, the goal is to get 1000 thank-yous in the course of the semester. That fundamentally changes the community. It doesn't just change the classroom. It doesn't just change the kids, that changes the community. Once you get to 50, you get a vial of sand from Normandy that he's collected. The kid who has the most thank-yous in a semester gets a vial of sand from Iwo Jima, which is in his way of saying it is the most difficult soil to get in the world because the only way you're allowed to go to Iwo Jima is if you are connected to Japan or you're a military liaison to Japan for the United States. That's the only way you get on that island. And so a veteran brought him back some sand from Iwo Jima. So one kid each semester gets that sand.And I'm sitting in there and this kid has thanked 75 veterans that past week. I was like, "How did you do it?" And he said, "Well, I go to football games and I watch for how people stand up and salute the flag during the national anthem. And then I go find them." I was like-Jill:That's awesome.Jon:...how amazing is that? So those kinds of small changes are the kinds of things that change our community in a society that feels like it's super broken and polarized, that changes people. And so that's the hope.Jill:That is such a cool story. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing all the other stories, and I really hope that it was an encouragement to all the educators out there. We are so grateful for the work that you do on a daily basis and making a difference in the lives of each student.Jon:Yeah, thanks for all you do, Jill. It's great. We have a great job.Jill:Yeah, we do.
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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, host Jon Eckert interviews Krystle Moos, an award-winning science teacher known for her innovative and engaging teaching methods. The discussion revolves around Krystle's approach to creating a dynamic learning environment that fosters curiosity, belonging, and genuine learning experiences for her students. Krystle emphasizes the importance of addressing distractions and creating a sense of belonging in the classroom, regardless of the evolving landscape of technology. She shares her strategy of making science hands-on and exploratory, moving away from traditional labs towards phenomenon-based learning to spark wonder and curiosity in her students.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcslMentioned:Limitless Mind: Learn, Lead, and Live Without Barriers by Jo Boaler
Transcription:
Jon Eckert:
Welcome back to the Just Schools Podcast. We're really excited today because in our podcast studio/my office, we have the award-winning amazing science teacher, Krystle Moos. A huge blessing to be able to work with her through our master's program. She's also a local educator that's impacted many, many kids' lives over the last several years. So, Krystle, thank you for being here first of all.
Krystle Moos:
Oh, it's honestly an honor and a joy to share education and our experiences with everybody we can.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. Oh, and I should mention you're also... My kids got to pick one teacher that they dedicated the book just teaching to, and so one of my daughters picked Ms. Moos as her most just teacher. So teacher that leads to justice and flourishing, not just a teacher, but the most impactful teacher that she had. So she had selected Ms. Moos. And now my other daughter is getting the benefit from Ms. Moos as well. So I think this is the first educator that I've been able to interview that's taught my own children. So you can feel free to share any shortcomings as a parent that I have that you see through my children. But really, what I want to talk to you today about is you've been teaching for a while, and you've won these awards and these accolades for being a great teacher, which are well deserved. But I'm curious, what do you see that's different about kids today than when you first started teaching?
Krystle Moos:
Yeah, I don't think there's much that's different, honestly. They have different distractions. And so I started my first five years at Waco ISD. It was a title one school, and their distractions were very different than when I moved to Midway ISD. It's more of a suburban school. They didn't have as many phones back then. Not everybody had a phone. We weren't assigning digital assignments when I first went to Midway, but they still had other distractions.
I had distractions when I was a student. It was writing notes and finding cute ways to fold them and sneak them along, and we still... I would leave and go to the library to write a paper. And so, I think they're the same. They're still distracted. They still have the same fundamental belonging in the classroom. And when we look at students and we look at what they're facing, and I do think they're facing more, everything's just way more visible in their life and way more connected, which can be really distracting. But then I think about sitting in my course, three math class, and writing notes to my friends and folding them, and I definitely was not engaged.
I think that sense of belonging in any classes where that teacher really made me feel like things were meaningful, they really cared about what I was doing, and what I was learning, and where I was going really were the most impactful classrooms that helped me center. And so, whether it was 17 years ago when I started or today before I get to the content, you have to get to the belonging and why we're doing things, and then the distractions fade away.
Jon Eckert:
Well, I like that you went back to the part that makes us human, which we all have this desire to belong. We want to be seen and known by other people, and that's an innate need. I think that's true. I think the distraction is also true, depending on how engaged we are in the classroom. We're looking for distraction. I think the challenge that I see is I don't think kids are different. I would agree, and I hope that's an encouragement to educators today that the kids aren't different. I do think the ability to distract them has increased significantly because we didn't walk around in our pocket with this device that engineers are paying billions of dollars to turn us as kids into the product. Their attention is that we didn't have that. You had the paper and pencil and the pen and the origami folding, which you could distract yourself, but nobody's being paid to distract you.
Krystle Moos:
Yeah. And I think that is something that we battle in my classroom. I make you grab your phone and show me it on days where I notice that things are going to be a little bit harder and I need them all in. I'll say, "Grab your phone. If you're not reaching in your bag, you're doing something wrong. Get your phone in your bag." When I walked in here today, I took my watch off. And so I think it's training people on when it's appropriate to use devices and when we need to put it away and really focus on what we're learning on each other, so that way the experience is more meaningful.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and I think in your classroom... Again, as a middle school science teacher, I never rose to the level of high school teacher, but I was a middle school science teacher. What I loved about middle school science is it's hands-on. You're doing things. You're experimenting. You're demonstrating. You're seeing how this works, and you did it this way this time, and now you do it this other way, this other time, and what's different, and you're recording it, and you're observing. And so it's designed to capture your attention. It requires your attention. So talk about some of the ways you make science come alive through the ways you make it hands-on in your class.
Krystle Moos:
So I went to school, where I loved all my teachers. I was a very compliant student, and I just did what I was told to do, and I was horrible at lab. I was the student that would finish a lab, have all the numbers, and then go sit and bother the teacher until they told me exactly what step to do to get the result.
When I started teaching, I took all labs and took the instructions away. I would do all the labs first. And I really made it more about exploring and modeling and less about manipulation of equipment. And so, I felt like a lot of labs were cookie-cutter labs. You just followed the instructions, and then it kind of connected to the content, but not at all. For me, it wasn't until I started teaching that I understood all the big connections.
As I rewrite labs, I take away the instructions. I make them target labs, or we'll spend multiple days or minutes, even just minutes, looking at a phenomenon, something as simple as ice melting on a block of plastic versus a block of metal. And then we draw, and we discuss, and we show transfer of energy. And so a lot more of the class is discussing revising models. And then I can drive the conversation of what's happening based on student misconceptions, and it makes it less paper pencil working through practice problems and more relatable, so I can say things like, "Do you remember in class when we did this thing? What did you learn, and how can you apply it to this problem?"
Jon Eckert:
Why do you think more teachers don't do this? Again, science lends itself to this, but a lot of science teachers, it's all procedures. It's all trying to track what you did when you did it. Be very careful in your observations, but it's not this exploration of the bigger concepts. Why do you think teachers don't do that more in whatever discipline they're in?
Krystle Moos:
Yeah, I think we do what we were taught. And so I think for a lot of people, it's just really easy to take what's out there and do it, and it worked. And so why change it? And for me, it didn't work for me. And I hated that I spent hours in college in lab, not understanding why I was doing it. And I wanted my students to have a different experience. And I wanted them to see the science around them coming to life so that when they walk outside and it's snowing, they're thinking about the transfer of energy and what's actually happening with the individual water molecules. And I just know I have to change what happened to me so that my students could see all the things that I'm seeing now.
We were just driving down the road. I drove from Denver to New York. And I looked out the window and saw a huge solar panel, a whole field, really, of solar panels. And I got this incredible idea that when I do a topic, I could actually have the students do those little... You know the car where this has a little solar panel, and when light strikes it, it bobbles its head? Well, I could have them explore with different color light on the end of flashlights to figure out a new relationship, a new lab that might make a little bit more sense to the students than the way I had been doing it by just discussing it.
Jon Eckert:
So what I love about what you've described already is you talked about this human piece that we want to belong. And then I think you also are tapping into this idea of wonder. How do we create a sense of awe and wonder about how things work? Not just, "Oh, that's amazing and that's beautiful," but what makes that work?
And when kids start doing that, I think that's how five-year-olds are. They have this curiosity that somehow school rings out of them. And I do think you're right that sometimes we just replicate what we experience as students. But I also think there's a fear of turning over control to students, where it's a lot easier to bore kids into compliance or make sure they follow these steps. And you can see, "Oh, they're not following the steps. They're not complying," where someone might walk into your classroom and be like, "What is going on here?" There's so much happening, there's so much energy. And that creates a sense of loss of control. And if I did that in my classroom, it would just get out of hand. And they fear that loss of control. Do you think that's true, or am I overstating what some teachers might be feeling?
Krystle Moos:
I think it's a little bit of that, and I think it's having those procedures in place. I go everywhere and in populations of adults, obviously, if you can hear me clap once, and it works every single time. But it's also that awkwardness and that a willingness to try something new. Science is about experimentation. I think education is about experimentation. So today, you said wonder. One of the things that I ask my students to do when they model or when they observe a phenomenon, the first thing I ask them is to write down two things they notice and then two things they wonder. And when we start to do that, we start to get them to think. And today, I even messed up in class. I said, "What do you guys notice?" And instead of giving them time to talk to each other first, I asked that question to the whole class complete in utter silence.
And so in the next class period I was like, "I got to do this better," so I gave them some time to talk together, "and I need three answers. I need three people to respond when you're done." I had eight people that just... I had to let them answer all eight of them. And so it's looking at what works and what doesn't work. It also is getting together with other educators. And so, so much of what I do has been revised by talking to teachers across the nation, not just in chemistry, also in biology, and really driving those conversations about, "What do you do? My students struggle with this. Do you have a lab or an activity or a way to teach it? Tell me how you teach it." And being okay, saying, "My students are struggling. What I'm doing is not working. I need some new ideas so that I can get my students to the point of wonder."
Jon Eckert:
Well, I think isn't that ultimately the goal for each of us is that whatever our subject is to get them to wonder. Because if we really want to tap into intrinsic motivation, we can intrinsically motivate them. That's, by definition, impossible. But if you can create the conditions like you did in the second class period where you set it up where it wasn't about you, it was about what they wanted to share, that creates conditions where they might be intrinsically motivated by the concept that they're studying. Because again, intrinsic motivation isn't "I want to be good at science so that I can get into college and then become a doctor." That's all delayed extrinsic motivation. It's, "Do I really have this awe and wonder about what I'm doing?" And I think that's more likely to happen in a class where they feel like they belong.
I will say too, my daughters have both said they love Ms. Moos because of your kind of nerdy love for so many things. And I think that's great because I think you've done a great job modeling that you're not trying to be cool, as whatever an 18-year-old thinks is cool. It's, "No, I think this is amazing," and that passion comes across to them. It's like, "Wow, I've never known anybody quite like that." And then that makes it okay for them to be excited about things that really get them going.
Have you seen that pay dividends? Do you ever struggle with that? I mean, I was clearly not a cool person by the standards of middle school kids, but I felt like I tried to make it okay to be quirky and be a little different and weird. Have you seen that pay dividends for you?
Krystle Moos:
I think I'm just quirky and weird. I'm okay. Just I am who I am, and I don't want my students to think that they have to be anything different than what they are. And having that belonging means that they get to see my weird. They get to see me on my best days when I'm just so excited, and they get to see me on some days that are a little bit harder. And so I really... I guess I didn't think I was that quirky, but I like it. I tell them, "I run science UIL. We're the nerd herd, and we are going to embrace it and love it." And the thing is that science and math and those are the places that I live and breathe. And man, if you want to come with me, great. If not, just appreciate the fact that I'm really excited about something, and I'm happy to hear about what you're excited about too.
Jon Eckert:
And I think that's part of the belonging you create in your classroom. And I may still remember you were talking to us about the eclipse that's coming.
Krystle Moos:
Path of totality.
Jon Eckert:
We've been talking about the path of totality in our house ever since, and-
Krystle Moos:
I'm not even a space person. Just you know, I've never taken a day of a space science class, but I am so excited. I didn't know when we had the annual eclipse. I don't know if you saw the pictures. But when the annual eclipse shines through the trees, the shadow is actually representative of what's happening in the sky because you're not supposed to look at it directly.
Jon Eckert:
Interesting.
Krystle Moos:
And so I didn't know that. And that stuff, what I didn't know, I didn't know. And what I've learned, I'm just so excited to share. It's path of totality on April 8th. I'm so excited.
Jon Eckert:
Space science, I never took anything in space science. I never taught it. And again, if you haven't taught something, it's hard to really know it. So I'm with you, but it is fascinating. And I just love that the energy you bring to that, but it's not just for the subject because sometimes people say, "Oh, elementary teachers teach the kids, and high school teachers teach the subject." It's like, no, you still teach kids, but you teach them to be passionate about what they're interested in. And you bring a passion to the science that I think is it effervesces in a way that it draws people in.
So one of the things you talked about before we jumped on is the way you give feedback based on this. So again, it's really way easier to give meaningful feedback when you have kids who are deeply engaged. But how do you give feedback in a way that helps kids grow and stretch in ways that are hard and uncomfortable but pays big dividends in the end?
Krystle Moos:
Yeah, I think anytime something's tied to a grade, you have a chance of not seeing what students really know and don't know. When we start deducting points for showing what you don't know, I just feel like it's asking students to copy from someone else because it has a stake in it, even if it's just a practice grade, especially when we get to evaluation grades. I don't want to be surprised on a test if a student didn't know something that I thought that they knew because they completed all their assignments. So I like to frequently stop, give the questions, give two or three questions to the students, and say, "Take it like a test. Take it like a quiz. Go in a corner. Don't get help from anybody. Just get as far as you can." And so we do this once or twice a week.
In AP chemistry, we do it all the time. I'm like, "Okay, you're going to do a CF..." We call it a CFU, a check for understanding. And what I do is they are low-stakes, very low-stakes, or no-stakes grades. And so, I'll get someone that turns it in completely blank, and they tried. They read the question. They'll have circled things, but they don't even know where to get started. I know that when I hand it back the next day, I'm going to pull that kid for a small group and work with them. It takes six weeks to drive out from students. That's okay to not know. It's not okay to not ask for help. And I'm still slowly getting the kids to kind of get rid of that. I would rather have you turn in assignments late. I would rather have you learn it later than now if you're not ready for it now, as long as you're willing to work on it later. And it has just been incredible. Students will get...
The class average on a CFA will be 50%. And I will feel so bad about myself because that means I taught it horribly the first time. But maybe I'll do peer-to-peer tutoring, or maybe I'll pull small group, or maybe I'll go over the CFA together. And it was the way the question was worded. And then on the test, the class average is a 90. So at first, I was like, "Maybe my tests aren't hard enough." But that feedback that constantly having students do it low-stakes, working with them, conferencing with them, and then having them learn from their mistakes has just been so impactful on their overall grades. They don't freak out for tests like they used to.
Jon Eckert:
And I know you don't teach for an AP score. I know that's not what motivates you, but your kids do well on AP exams. And that's the kind of teacher that I like to see because that AP exam is validation that, "Hey, they learned a lot." And it's not about grade inflation because we have this really problematic thing going on in high schools right now where there's a ton of cheating going on. There's a tacit endorsement among some teachers like, "Hey, I don't care how you get the answers, just get the answers and let's move on." So you have graduation rates that are off the charts because kids are moving through, and the National Assessment of Education Progress, ACT, SAT they're all showing these declines in actual learning.
And so what I loved in what you described was this check for understanding is not a throwaway grade. This is a true formative check for me and you to know what you do and don't know. And so then, when you get to the summative assessment, you have these high scores because you and your student know what you didn't know, and then you figure out ways because you are one of the most tireless teachers I've seen for reteaching, figuring out ways to show it a different way, and have an unbelievable amount of energy for that. And that's what gets them over that bar. So it's not about grade inflation. They've truly earned that. And that is, to me, the goal of any teacher.
I don't understand teachers that are okay with a class average of 60% that they then curve and bump up because I really want to know what's the 40% of what you taught that you don't care that your kids don't know. I would hope in most classes, the class average is 90% are higher because I want to know if I'm the teacher that's going to get those kids they learn those things. And coming out of your class, they know that. Now, that's not the way most educators work. Why do you think that is?
Krystle Moos:
It's hard. It is really hard to get the students to take ownership over their own learning because we have just passed them on. And so, if in second grade they struggle with one aspect of math, we pass them on. We're in a very heavy math unit right now, and it involves solving proportions. I can teach them the chemistry. They know all the units. But when it gets to the math, I had to spend a half a class period pulling out small groups of students, that when I said, "Look, it's a proportion. You cross multiply and divide." I had kids honest enough. Let's just be real there. Teenagers being honest enough to say, "I don't know how to do that." They said... An exact quote was, "Teachers have been saying this to me. Cross multiply and divide for the past three years, and I don't know what they mean."
And these are students in honors chemistry. And so I've broken down this wall of it's okay to not know, but you have to ask. And if I don't explain it well the first time, I put a lot of the blame on me. If I didn't explain it well the first time because you didn't get it, ask me again, and we'll come up with something else. Or let's go ask one of your friends, because your friend may have been through the same exact system you were. Something I said clicked for them. And so we just do a lot of peer-to-peer tutoring too.
Jon Eckert:
No, that's great. And I do think sometimes you take too much of the responsibility on yourself as an educator. And I think, as educators, we need to know it's a partnership. And kids have to ask, and they have to do the work. I think, sometimes kids, and I don't think this is true in your class, they'll say, "Well, I don't get it." It's like, "No. You have to articulate what you don't understand because I don't get it is basically saying, 'I'm not even going to try to articulate what I don't know.'" Your example with the proportions is a good example. "Teachers have told me this over and over again, and I don't know what that means." That's a really helpful place because then you can step in and say, "Oh, here's what this is." And you shouldn't have to be teaching that in honors chemistry, but...
Krystle Moos:
I'm going to. If we look at... You're talking about the learning connection, what our students know. I think for me, honors chemistry, the big thing is I can support our students in ACT, SAT, and just general knowledge. And if that's the hole they're missing, I'm going to jump in and fill it because do I want them to learn chemistry? Yes. But how many of them are going to use ideal gas law later on in life? And so if I can teach them proportion, I'm good for the day.
Jon Eckert:
Right, right. No. And I really appreciate that about the way you approach, and that's what a lot of great teachers do, and we need to just continue to highlight that. So we always wrap up with a lightning round. So here's your chance in a word, phrase, or sentence to answer a few. And I have a few common ones I go back to, so I'll ask some of those, and we'll see if I come up with anything random. Feel free to take a pause if you need to, because a lot of times these are the first times you've heard these questions, but what's your favorite book that you've read in this past year? It could be education-related, or it could be anything else. I always want a good book recommendation.
Krystle Moos:
I always go to Limitless Mind by Jo Boaler, Productive Struggle, just that grit, that tenacity, that it's okay to not know. I would recommend it for any math, really. Any science teacher.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, you recommended that to me early on when a friend, Jo Boaler, does great stuff. Great, great example for educators. Okay. What is the worst piece of advice you've ever received?
Krystle Moos:
Yeah. I've watched a lot of the podcasts, and so I know the repeat ones, but I had someone recommend. And I thought it was a great idea to separate all the loud students that talk from each other. And I very quickly learned that they still talk just across the classroom. And so I'm a little bit more intentional about that. And I provide them opportunities to work with their louder friends, but gosh, that was just horrible. The one here, I separated, and they were screaming across the room.
Jon Eckert:
Well, with my middle schoolers, what I would do in the lab is I would let them choose who they got to sit with for the quarter, and then they get to pick their seats again the next quarter. They said to pick, they couldn't sit with anybody they sat with that quarter, so their group of four would get broken up, and so they had to move those around. But what I found was they so badly wanted to be together that if you put them together and said, "Hey, if this isn't a good choice for you, I'm going to intercede, and we're going to move you," I found that that was my best way to control some of the off-task behavior that they would get. Sometimes, putting them together was the best thing I could do. Not always, but sometimes.
Krystle Moos:
And their conversations are just so much cooler when they're willing to talk to one another.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. And hilarious.
Krystle Moos:
Oh, hilarious.
Jon Eckert:
And hilarious. All right. Best piece of advice you've ever received.
Krystle Moos:
Yeah. Support the support staff. My secretaries, custodians, they are the backbone behind the school. I support my leaders, support everybody, but those custodians and secretaries really can get overlooked. And their impact is very powerful at the school.
Jon Eckert:
Well said. Good thing to remember. Love that. What's the biggest challenge you see for educators in the year ahead?
Krystle Moos:
Anticipating gaps in learning. As a secondary teacher, I used to know what the students weren't, and were going to know, and where they were. And it seems like each year, planning for those misconceptions is getting a little bit more challenging, but I think it's also really fun to look at the first period and go, 'That did not work. Let's scrap it and try again."
Jon Eckert:
Yep. No, well said. What's the thing that makes you most optimistic as you look ahead?
Krystle Moos:
The kids. They're absolutely just doing incredible things. My students are trying and working with me and growing and building. And really, this move to a standards-based learning. Learning to learn and not learning for a grade has changed so much of my students' perspective on learning. They're willing to try things and ask questions in a way that I haven't seen in a while.
Jon Eckert:
Well, I really appreciate you coming on today. And also, just thank you for helping kids become more of who they're created to be. I think sometimes kids don't even have a vision for who the Lord has made them to be. Obviously, God's never surprised by who that kid, what they can do, but I feel teachers like you help speak into kids' lives, share that with them explicitly, but then implicitly, through the way you teach, give feedback, and push them, allows them to do things that they probably didn't imagine they could do. And you have a lot of kids at Midway High School who consider chemistry and the sciences because they feel like they can do it coming out of your class. So it's a huge blessing to my own children but also to the community. And again, it's what great teachers do. So thanks for being on, and thanks for all you do.
Krystle Moos:
Of course. Thank you.
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In this podcast episode, host Jon interviews two guests from Australia, Darren Iselin and his daughter Beck, about the concept of wellbeing in schools. Beck, a teacher, discusses the increase in mental health issues among her students, such as anxiety and depression, as well as the rise in neurodivergent behaviors. She also shares her observations about the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on student wellbeing. The conversation highlights the importance of relationships, trust, and cultural norms in fostering student wellbeing and flourishing. They conclude by expressing their hopes for the future of education, including a focus on connection and a joyful hope for student flourishing.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged. Mentioned:Flourishing Together by Lynn Swaner and Andy WolfeNovice Advantage by Jon EckertConnect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl
Jon:
Welcome back to Just Schools. Today we have two guests in from Australia. Darren Iselin is one of our only ever repeat people on this podcast, he was so good the first time we brought him back again. And this time he's also brought his daughter Beck. Beck is in her sixth year of teaching year four in Australia. And so today we are going to have a conversation where we make a case against wellbeing. So if you aren't intrigued already, hopefully you will be after we start to hear from some of our friends here.
So let's start with Beck. So Beck, you're in your sixth year. So you've been teaching a little bit before Covid hit and then you've had almost half your time before and after Covid. How would you describe the wellbeing of your students in Australia now? And then we'll dig into why maybe that wellbeing is not the right term for our kids.
Beck:
Yeah, absolutely. Within my classroom context, in any given year post Covid, I generally have around 10 kids diagnosed anxiety. I've seen depression as well in addition to then neurodivergent behaviors, seeing a massive increase.
Jon:
Neuro divergent. I love the terms used. I mean five years ago, we never heard that but all right, so continue with neurodivergent. Sorry to interrupt.
Beck:
So that's an increase in that, in addition to what I was already seeing. I think there's been a lot of children coming in just not at their, we talk about battery packs and they're coming into that school day and their battery pack is just completely drained at the start of the school day. And I think Covid times are really interesting for me. I was still teaching grade one back then and in Australia we only had remote learning for a short time. But for my students, the students who attended school, their wellbeing if you want to call it that I guess, they just seemed happier and settled and then the students who were learning at home seemed the same. And so then coming back from Covid was really hard because the students at school that had had so much more attention had had a different school day, they then struggled with having everyone back together and then the students who were at home who had had Mom and Dad doting on them for the whole day and only having to do some hours.
Jon:
I want to be in that house. I don't think our kids felt like they were doted on our house.
Beck:
I know sitting in Mom and Dad's office chair, we saw Ugg boots with the school uniforms, so then they loved that time. And so what I found really interesting was the coming back to I guess what we had considered normal school. And I feel like we've kind of been struggling to still come back after that, if that makes sense.
Jon:
Yes. Well in the US some schools were out for long periods of time, so there's significant learning loss that's happened and they're not able to figure out ways to minimize that impact and then accelerate forward on top of all the shifts in the way kids have gone through schooling over the last four years.
Darren, we had a conversation with a renowned education scholar and in that conversation we were talking about wellbeing and flourishing and some of the issues that Beck just alluded to because we're seeing that in college students, we're seeing in grad students, we're seeing it in K through 12 students for sure. He mentioned that he did not like the term wellbeing and he didn't like the term flourishing. From what you recall of that conversation, what was his beef with those two terms? To me those have been some of the most ubiquitous terms in schools and who's against wellbeing? And here I'm saying we're making a case against it. What was his problem with those terms?
Darren:
Yeah, I think it comes out of a sense that the way that we are orientating the whole educational process has become highly individualized, highly about the self, the atomized version of who we are, and we've lost sight of, I guess a larger understanding of community and understanding of relationship and understanding of how we do this educative process together as opposed to siloed and isolated. And I think his main concern was around that the notion of wellbeing has become more and more about an introspective subjective version of what that means as an outcome as opposed to something that is around a collective purpose and meaning making that can be shared in a journey together.
Jon:
So when you think about Aristotle's view of the purpose of education, it was to lead to a flourishing society, which is an individual component to that, but that also has a communal purpose, it's not just to flourish. That becomes an issue. So I think I agree that was one of his things that he was pushing back against. And then I felt like he was also pushing against the idea that if kids believe that when they go to school their wellbeing is going to be attended to, and educators see wellbeing as the end, that communicates to them a freedom from struggle. And in fact, in his view, and also I think in our shared view, education is struggle. It's not freedom from struggle, it's freedom to struggle well.
So I know Beck, you were just in US schools, you were visiting and then you have your school context, and again, you just got to drop in on a US school. But do see kids struggling well in schools, do you think they think of wellbeing and flourishing including struggle? Is that something that your students in Australia... Or my perception is in the US that's not something that's expected as a part of wellbeing and that wellbeing is freedom from it. What do you see?
Beck:
I love that because I think some teachers can be so quick to put up the poster, the growth mindset poster of the struggle is healthy. And you might see it in a room in that sense physically, but I like to talk about it almost like this sense of accomplishment. And so at one point a school that I was in had a model where if students experienced struggle, the classroom was then no longer a safe space. And it was like, okay, we need to remove them from the struggle. We don't really know what we'll do with them at that point. We might have calm down strategies, we might do all sorts of things, but then what was happening was that these students never got to experience the sense of accomplishment that came from doing a task that they thought they couldn't do and then actually succeeding in that.
And I've even heard students say to me like, "Oh, I had no idea I was able to do that," or "Oh, that was actually really fun." Or to the point where I had one student discover just a love of reading, had never wanted to touch a book or pick up a book before that. And then just with that I guess a sense of going, you can do it and being careful with the language that I used around her, she's now the student that literally walks around with her head in a book and that's just unlocked a whole new world for her as well. And so I think I'm cautious to never rob my students of that and to embrace that struggle.
Jon:
I love the idea of not robbing your students of it. And you mentioned in a conversation we had earlier about the space in a classroom you can go if you feel like you need a time to take a break and you just need to disengage and then not participate. And obviously there are times when kids are unregulated and they just need a space to calm down and that's real, but it becomes a crutch. And so then you've taken away the chance for a kid to struggle well. So how do you balance that? The kid who needs some time to regulate versus the kid who needs to be stretched, the cognitive endurance needs to be challenged, the push has to be there. How have you figured out how to balance that? I know you've figured out all the answers because in your sixth year of teaching, so how do you do that?
Beck:
I think I couldn't not mention relationship. So much comes down to the trust that is built. But I guess if I could say practically aside from that, I have had spaces like that in my classroom. In my grade one classroom we had the cool down couch.
Jon:
I want to go to the cool down couch.
Beck:
It was great. It was this bright green vinyl. I had kids asleep on that thing. It was great. But one thing I loved was having a space, I've seen tents, I've seen all sorts of things, having a space where the student was still in close proximity to their peers. They were still part of our discussions, but they just perhaps weren't sitting at their desk in a scratchy chair. Maybe it was a little bit quieter where they were, but there was always a sense of I feel that it's best for you to be in this room. We want you here. This is community, this is belonging. And what pathway is built if when they begin to struggle, I send them out. And so yeah, I guess what I saw then was children who maybe don't look like they're listening the way that we might expect. I've heard crisscross applesauce. That's a big thing here.
Jon:
Yes, it's a big thing here. Yes.
Beck:
Yeah. But then still being able to engage in discussion just might not look the way that I expect it to look.
Jon:
No, that's good. So Darren, when you look up the word flourish, so we've picked on wellbeing for a little bit, and again, I want to make it clear we're all for wellbeing. We know you can't do any of the work that we do in schools without wellbeing. But if we're communicating to kids that the definition of wellbeing or flourishing, if you look up in Merriam Webster's, the dictionary, it says flourish means to grow luxuriantly. I don't think anyone would read that and think, oh, that means I need to struggle. And so how do we as leaders of schools and catalysts for other school leaders, how do we help our educators communicate to students what it means to struggle well? Especially as Christians because I think we have a better view of what it means to flourish as human beings knowing that we're made in the image of God. So how do we do that? Have you had any success in Australia doing this? Do you have any hope for us?
Darren:
Look, I think there is hope, and I think it's very much around how we're framing that conversation, Jon. To talk about this notion of flourishing as though it's the removal of all of those mechanisms that will imply risk, that will imply struggle, that will imply a wrestling through actually goes against the very grain of what we're really after with genuine wellbeing and genuine flourishing which we want in our school communities.
I think something that comes back to our training as educators is always around that Vygotskian term around the zone of proximal development. And of course what we can do together can be exponentially better than what we can do on our own. And I think that notion of proximal development, we could apply to very different frames.
We can do that pedagogically, what that pedagogical zone of proximal development looks like. What does relational proximal development look like? Going back to Beck's couch and the safe spaces that we create within our classrooms, what does cultural proximal development look like? Where we're actually together working on solutions that will expand and what we end up with through struggle, through risk, through uncertainty is actually better rounded and better formed students, better formed teachers, better formed communities within our schools.
Jon:
I love that ZPD applied to relational development. So my question then for Beck is you're now in that sweet spot I feel like in the teaching profession. The first year you're just trying to figure it out. The second year you're trying to pick up what you muddled through the first year. And by the third year you hit a, if you've gotten to teach the same grade level subject, you kind of like, okay, I get this. And you can look around and see what colleagues do I pull into this? How can I be more intentional about things other than just being survival mode?
So your zone of proximal development for relational development as a leader in your classroom and beyond, you have more capacity for that now. So how have you seen your capacity for struggle increase? Because now you have the ability to not constantly be thinking about what am I saying? What am I doing? What's the lesson plan? You have this bandwidth, how have you seen yourself grow in that relational ZPD?
Beck:
I think there's definitely been, as with probably comes with any job, just an easing into it. And so there is a sense of it just being a lot of second nature and also just coming back every day and just having eyes that would see beyond the behaviors and having eyes that would see beyond maybe the meltdowns and the language used not just from my students but from within the whole school community. I think that obviously with then success and going, oh, I've done this before. I remember when I did this for this student before, this really worked quite well.
And it never is the same for two students, but there's definitely a confidence that grows. And whilst I am in my sixth year, I don't feel like I'm in my sixth year. I feel like I have so much more to learn. But I think teaching is just like that. I think that the point where you just say, no, I've learned everything there is to learn, that's a dangerous place to be in. And I think there's so much to learn from our students as well. They teach me so much every day. And one of my greatest joys is when I see them begin to celebrate each other's successes and interact with each other in the same way that I guess I'm trying to create that culture.
Darren:
And becomes a very cultural dimension, Jon, where there is that capacity for trust, for engagement, for that sense of that we are in this together. And because we're in it together both within the students but within our classroom, there are these cultural norms that are created that are so powerful. And as someone who, obviously I'm very biased going into my daughter's own classroom, but when I see classrooms that are actually reflecting a culture where that proximal development is taking place culturally, relationally, pedagogically, it really is a transformative space. It's a safe space, but it's not without risk. And so it's not safetyism, as Jonathan Haight would say, it's actually a place where people are entrusted to be able to be who they are, to be real and authentic in that space and allow for that image bearing capacity to find its fullness.
Jon:
Yeah. So when you say that, I go back to the, obviously we need schools to be safe, we need classrooms to be safe, but I think if we tell kids that they're going to wait until they feel safe to share, marginalized kids will never share. And so in fact, they need to be respectful spaces that celebrate the risk taking what you described about seeing kids and celebrating that. And I think what you also described was gritty optimism. It isn't the naive optimism of a beginner. So my first book I wrote was called The Novice Advantage, and I talk about the shift that happens when you go from naive optimism to gritty optimism where you're optimistic based on things you've seen kids grow and do that you didn't think they could do.
And when you can take that from the classroom and make that be a school-wide value, that's when it gets fun. Because when we say struggle, nobody wants to struggle. I don't want to struggle. I know sanctification is a process of being stretched. I want to be stretched without having been stretched. I don't want to go through the process of it. I want the benefit of it on the back end. And so I think what I want to see as a profession or people like you Beck and you Darren, leading other educators in this struggle where we celebrate the growth that we see, when we do more than we thought we can do and that it be fun.
I don't think that the way I'm conceiving of wellbeing, that includes freedom to struggle well as being something that's onerous and compliance driven. I see it as something that, no, I could do this in August. I can do this now in December. Beck, I could do this as a first year teacher. I can do this now in my sixth year and I can point to how I've grown. So if you were to think back over the six years, how are you fundamentally different as a teacher because of some of the hard things that you've gone through in your first six years?
Beck:
I think to throw another buzzword in, I would say resilient.
Darren:
Oh yes.
Jon:
Yes.
Beck:
I think there's been so many micro moments. It's very hard to pinpoint and say this class or this child or this parent or this moment, but it's just the micro moments every day. Teachers make thousands upon thousands of decisions daily. And I think there's almost a sense of empowerment in going, when I speak from my own successes, I then can call that out in someone else. I think every teacher starts their career one of two ways, very bright-eyed. I was like, I've got the rainbow-
Jon:
Idealistic.
Beck:
... rainbow decor, I've got the cool down couch, everything's alliterated. And I think I was very blessed to actually have taught the two cohorts that I taught in first grade again in fourth grade. And that was very significant for me because one, I got to enjoy all of the great things I saw in grade one, but they was so much more independent. But also it was in some ways a second chance to go, Hey, that thing that I really didn't do well when I was fumbling around in grade one, let's do that again and let's do it together.
You know that I was there and I know that I was there, but we're both on this journey together. And that then created stronger community and this sense of identity to the point where I had one of my students create a hashtag on Cecil, which is a platform that students can upload to. And one of the photos he goes, hashtag 4B for life. And I was like, "What did you mean, Luke? What is this?" And he was like, "Oh, it just means we've got each other's backs," and all these things that, I mean, I could have put signs up and said, we're a family and we have this and these are our class rules and whatever. But I would much rather that come from their mouth and just knowing that they felt it was safe, I didn't have to prove that something... I didn't have to prove that I was a safe person. I didn't have to prove that my classroom was a safe space. It just became that. And yeah, looking back, I think it just makes me more excited, I think for the years ahead.
Jon:
Well, they owned the culture. It wasn't you forcing the culture. They owned it and you have the evidence of it. So Darren, you've been in education a little bit longer than Beck.
Darren:
Just one or two more years.
Jon:
How do you see your growth or the growth of educators like Beck? Where are you encouraged by growth that you've seen in yourself or growth just in the profession and what you've seen in Australia or you've been all over the world seeing this, where do you see optimism for this growth?
Darren:
I think the optimism comes Jon, when you see the capacity for that transformative interaction between student and teacher. That sacred moment on day one, which for many of our schools in Australia are going back within one or two weeks for that day one. And we start afresh. We start afresh with the newness of a new year, a new class, new minds, new hearts, new relationships to engage with and to see the transformative impact that that has.
And year after year, we come back to that core element of what it means to actually be about this ancient task of teaching. To be able to engage this space well through struggle, yes, through risk, through uncertainty, through all the things that will be thrown at us in this year. And yet there is something about being a part of a community, a network, a culture that is established within a classroom that truly is a microcosm of what that school should look like right through as you talked about those norms and values that flow, and then indeed what a wider community would look like.
And that notion of flourishing of what shalom might look like in its holistic sense, I think is the responsibility that every teacher has. And I get excited at this time of the year, this beginning phase that every teacher goes in, whether they've been teaching for 30 years or this is their first year of teaching, when they stand before that class for the first day, that first hour when they're establishing those norms, those expectations, we are filled with hope. We are filled with expectation, we are filled that we want to be part of 4B forever-
Jon:
That's right.
Darren:
... because of what we are endeavoring to achieve here with purpose and meaning and something that goes far beyond just a transactional arrangement.
Jon:
I mean, teaching is one of the most human things we do and it's what keeps us coming back to it. And I'm excited about the tools that are out there from AI to ChatGPT to whatever, but anything that takes the human out of it is a problem. And so in just teaching, I define wellbeing as purpose-driven, flourishing, and then feedback is purpose-driven wisdom for growth. There's this huge component. And that only comes from humans. Because AI is consensus, it's scraping whatever the web has said on a certain topic and says, Hey, here's what consensus is. That's not wisdom. And so we gain wisdom from struggle. We're much more able to help and have empathy for people once we've been through something hard. We become much less judgmental. And I think that's grounded in two Corinthians four, seven through 10. And I think as educators we get to live that out all the time.
And so I was sharing with you before we jumped on, I memorized these verses as a kid, but I didn't memorize verse 10, which is the most important one. So if you remember Paul's writing to the Corinthians and they were known for pottery that would be cracked and you could put a light in it and the light would shine through it. So it makes this passage even more powerful. And it comes from our friend Lynn Swaner and Andy Wolfe's book Flourishing Together. And they use this as their paradigm for what this means. And it's super encouraging in this way. But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that the all surpassing power is from God, not from us. We're hard-pressed on every side but not crushed, perplexed but not in despair, persecuted but not abandoned, struck down but not destroyed. So those are the ones that are there and those are daunting if you put in educators instead of we. Educators are hard-pressed on every side.
Darren:
Sums up our profession.
Jon:
It's felt like that, right? But that gives us the opportunity to show Christ. And so that's where verse 10 comes in. We always carry around in our bodies the death of Jesus so that the life of Jesus may also may be revealed in our bodies. So our creator had to come, suffer, die and we carry that around so that we can then reflect his glory to others because he's at work in us. So as we do this work, that's the hope, that's the joy.
Darren:
Absolutely.
Jon:
Right. And so we're going to wrap up our time with a lightning round. And so I always like to ask, I have five or six kind of go-to questions here. And so I'm curious and feel free to build on anything that we've talked about so far, but this is a word, phrase or sentence. I'm terrible at this. I always would go too long if I were asked this. But if you were to think back on this past year and what we've just talked about, what real wellbeing is, really that's what we're talking about. What is real wellbeing? What's one word that sums up for you how you've approached your own wellbeing in this past year? What would be a word that comes into mind? And in this one, I really do want the first word that pops in your head.
Beck:
Fulfillment for me.
Jon:
Great word, Beck. That was quick. She's younger than we are. Her mind works faster. So Darren, go for it.
Darren:
I'll tell you something quite random, gaming. Now I'm not a gamer, but I love games and Beck shares that passion. We often don't get to play them as much as we should, but we have room full of games that we can pick at any given time. But there is something that is dynamic about gaming. There's something about when you enter into play into that space of actually struggle, of risk, of uncertainty, of joy. And I think in all of that, that to me has been something that has really resonated with me as I've looked at this whole notion of wellbeing is we need to play more, we need to have more fun, Jon. We get to far too serious about too many things.
Jon:
That's right. Darren's a lightning round guy like I am. Beck had literally one word.
Beck:
I'm obedient. Follow the instructions.
Jon:
So I wasn't planning to ask this one, but in the last year, what has been your favorite game that you have played? One of your top five?
Beck:
I have to say Ticket to Ride for me.
Jon:
Oh, I love Ticket to Ride.
Beck:
And all the expansion packs.
Jon:
I've not done the expansion packs. All right. Ticket to Ride. Great.
Darren:
We just love our trivial games. So anything that's got trivia in it. And there are some really awful games of that, there are some really fantastic games that we play with that.
Beck:
Lots of eighties trivia.
Darren:
Lots of eighties and nineties trivia. Just to boost the points for-
Beck:
That's not my sweet spot.
Darren:
... Mom and Dad.
Jon:
Yes. Well my kids love the Harry Potter Trivial Pursuit because I sit and listen to them and I am both proud and cringing that they know Harry Potter that well.
Darren:
My children are like that with Lord of the Rings and Star Wars.
Beck:
Or any sport.
Jon:
Oh well that's okay. Sport is all clear. All good. Okay. So what's the best book you've read in the last year? And it doesn't have to be education related, but it could be.
Beck:
Mine is a Hinds' Feet on High Places by Hannah Hurnard.
Jon:
Okay.
Beck:
Yeah. Fantastic book. It's an allegory, follows the story of a character called Much Afraid, who is on her way to the high places and has to walk in the hinds' feet of the shepherd leading her. Powerful.
Jon:
That sounds powerful. All right, Darren?
Darren:
Mine was a book by Andy Crouch called The Life We're Looking For, really about reclaiming relationships in a technological age. And I just found that such a riveting read. I read it almost in one sitting. It was that engaging.
Jon:
Wow. I love Andy Crouch. That's great. So two great recommendations there. All right. Worst piece of advice you've ever received as an educator? Either one of you.
Beck:
As an educator, that's tricky.
Jon:
Or you can just go, worst piece of advice that could be fun too.
Darren:
Well, the classic that is often rolled out is don't smile till Easter, right. Now it might have a different terminology in the US .
Jon:
It's Thanksgiving. Don't smile till Thanksgiving.
Darren:
From my day one of teaching Jon, I refused to even go to that space. It was just so against everything that I believed as far as the relational heart of teaching.
Jon:
That's great.
Beck:
I would've said the same. Non-educator worst advice, just add caramel syrup to American coffee and it tastes better. That's terrible advice. Nothing will save it.
Jon:
Nothing will save American coffee. Hey, it's a struggle. It's part of the struggle. There you go. It's not contributing to your wellbeing.
Darren:
The joy in the journey.
Jon:
That's good. All right. So I will say about 70% of the people on this give the worst piece of advice that they've ever received that don't smile till the thing. And so we get that every time.
Beck:
Original.
Jon:
It's so sad that-
Darren:
Tragic.
Jon:
...that is so pervasive. Best piece of advice you've ever received? And this could be in general or as an educator.
Darren:
I will go with education again, Jon, that at the heart of education is the education of the heart. And so just keep it real and keep it relational. And it's all about relationships.
Beck:
As an educator, best advice I've received, I don't know if you could call it advice, but the quote "The kids who need love the most are the hardest to love." That's my favorite.
Jon:
That's good. Last question, last word for the listeners. What do you hope in the years ahead as an educator will best define what it means to flourish as a student? So word, phrase, or sentence. What would flourishing really look like for a kid moving forward?
Beck:
I would say a word, connection. And I would love to see Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs starting at the bottom not always at the top in our classrooms.
Jon:
Love it.
Darren:
Yeah. I think for me the word that constantly comes to mind is joyful hope, is a joyful hope in what we do, that what we've been entrusted with every year within our classrooms. That there's a joyful hope that awaits.
Jon:
Well, thank you for being with us today. It's been a huge blessing for me.
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In this podcast episode, Jon Eckert interviews Deani Van Pelt, who leads an association of independent Christian schools in Ontario, Canada. They discuss trends in education, including increased parental engagement and the growth of alternative forms of education. They also touch on the work of Cardus, a think tank focused on education for the common good, and the importance of using industry best practices in education. Van Pelt highlights the ideas of Charlotte Mason, an educator from the early 20th century, who emphasized the importance of relationships and the development of the whole person in education. They also discuss the role of empathy and narration in learning, and the challenges and opportunities facing education today.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Mentioned:Understanding by Design: Professional Development Workbook by Jay McTighe, Grant Wiggins From Strength to Strength: Finding Success, Happiness, and Deep Purpose in the Second Half of Life by Arthur BrooksThe Whalebone Theatre: A Read with Jenna Pick by Joanna Quinn Jon Eckert:Welcome back to The Just Schools Podcast. Today we're here with good friend Deani Van Pelt, another friend from Canada. We've had some great insights from educators in Canada. So first of all, welcome, Deani. It's great to have you. And just tell us a little bit about what you do now and how you got to what you do right now. And then we'll jump into some trends that we're seeing and some cool ideas and how to better engage students.Deani Van Pelt:Great to be here, Jon. Always good to be in conversation with you. And greetings from Canada. I'm sitting here in a nice icy weather just outside of Toronto. Currently, I lead an association of independent Christian schools here in Ontario. We've got almost 100 private Christian schools that are part of our association. So many dynamic committed leaders and educators within the network, within there's about 20,000 students whose lives we're privileged to be part of through the work that we do in our association. We do some on learning, some on leadership, some on government advocacy and a lot of work on school support. Just helping schools to be the absolute best they can be, most professional, most effective in our times. So it's fantastic to be able to serve the independent school sector here in Canada in that way. We do lots of work as you know John, that's how you and I met, with leaders in Christian education across Canada but also across North America and across the pond with the UK and other countries.And we've just learned so much from each other as we network and connect with one another. We're soon going to be bringing a whole cohort of Christian school leaders from Canada over to the UK. And just find that our optimism, our focus, our leadership abilities really increased through these engagements and just so privileged to be part of that.Jon Eckert:That's great. No, I was going to say I love what you do through Advance. And then we also get to overlap through Cardus as senior fellows because they're all looking at education for the common good. And what does that mean? To educate in ways that serve the public because sometimes, at least in the US, we think of public schools as obviously being for the public good. We want to do that. I spent 12 years teaching in public schools, but then how do other schools contribute to that public good? And so, Cardus is a think tank that does a lot of good work in one section is education, that's where we overlap. So just talk a little bit about your work there, how that ties into Advance and some of the cool things that you get to do, where you see some of that work going.Deani Van Pelt:One of my favorite short statements about education comes from Cardus and they say all education is public education. It doesn't matter where it's happening, it's all for the common good. It's all the education of the public for the common good. And for some it's government schools, for others it's in an independent school. And now we're seeing all of these out of system types or forms of education that are starting up. It's all education is public education. So along those lines, Cardus does a lot of work as looking at the independent school sector. They're really interested in the good that can come out of non-government schooling. So you and I we're both so privileged to be part of these research teams, looking at so many different aspects of the independent school sector. There's quite a few senior fellows at Cardus on the education file. And together with each one of us with our different areas of expertise, the whole school of thought out of Cardus is becoming increasingly sophisticated.And if your listeners haven't taken a look lately at Cardus' education research, I highly recommend it. I scrolled through again yesterday. It's fantastic the number of studies that are coming out of Cardus through the collaboration across quite a few researchers.Jon Eckert:Well, and Cardus was great. They were able to publish a collective leadership paper that looks at what collective leadership looks like in independent schools that I had worked on. And I really appreciated them putting that white paper out. But they do have a number of amazing white papers. And then we survey educational outcomes for people 24 to 39. And I guess Cardus has been doing that for 13 years. I've been a part of it now for the last few. And we have that data. We just did another data collection that will be coming out with results from that relatively soon where we can just take an open-minded, even-handed look at what the data is showing for what kinds of outcomes we're getting from all of these kinds of education that contribute to the common good, which I think is important. And I think those are really useful conversations to have.So with that said, what are some of the trends you're seeing in education in Canada they get you excited, and maybe some of the trends that you're a little more concerned about as you look ahead at what's coming? Since you get to work with so many different school leaders, you obviously have that and you place some in the policy space. So what are some trends you're excited about and maybe some you're concerned about?Deani Van Pelt:Yeah, so I would say the biggest trend is that parents are really dialed into their kids' education. COVID gave people a glimpse as to what was going on, and I think more and more parents started being involved, started asking questions. Some were pretty satisfied with what they saw and they were really contributing, some not so satisfied and started asking some other questions. But the point is, parents are probably more engaged in their kids' education than we've seen in quite a few decades. So that's a key trend and a number are making different choices for their children schooling. But it isn't just on that we call the demand side of choosing something different. It's also the provision, John, so many new independent or other sorts of out of system forms of education are starting up. And that is a significant trend, particularly here in the province of Ontario where I am.A couple of 100 independent schools have opened just in the last two years in this province. That kind of growth it hasn't been seen before. So also growth in homeschooling, but homeschooling isn't what it used to be. It now takes this kind of hybrid form where there's a few days where you might be at home and then a few days of the week where you're out in a more group setting. Perhaps you're registered as part of a school, maybe it's delivered through hybrid means so you're part of a school but it's a virtual school. So just the diversity, the categories, I would say the trend in the categories no longer being so distinct, public school, independent school, homeschool, that's changing. And that's really fun. I love entrepreneurs. I love an entrepreneurial spirit. And you've heard the new word, entrepreneur, and I think that's exactly these are the days of entrepreneurship. And it's really exciting to see people with very high capacity individuals but also communities coming together and saying, "I think we can do this differently. We can do this better." And giving it a try, that's a fantastic trend and that's global.Jon Eckert:Yeah, I would agree that that is definitely pervasive. And as you see that, do you see any challenges or headwinds for education that give you pause, or that you feel like we really need to be focusing on to overcome?Deani Van Pelt:Yeah, exactly. There are a lot of industry standards as you and I know. There are best practices, there are some fantastic insights that we know about how children learn, about what optimal teaching and learning environments can be, that these entrepreneurs really should be considering. So at Advance, for example, we help schools with their operations. It's basic. You need these certain types of policies, all right, here they are. Take a look at all of these. Make sure you're at very minimum doing all of these things. You want to operate a safe, healthy school that follows whatever the requirements are, the legislative requirements are for the jurisdiction in which you find yourself. So get up to speed, find the organizations that can help you to operate safely and well. So don't try to do it all on your own, I guess is what I'm trying to say. And good entrepreneurs know that as well to use industry best standards, best practices. So that would be a challenge but the solution's available. There are fantastic associations like ours and other supports across every educational jurisdiction, and I think folks just want to seek those out.Jon Eckert:That's good. I like that your challenges even offer some hope and some ways forward. Well, one of the things that I think is interesting is you talk about these shifts that have been happening fairly rapidly since COVID. One of your deep passions is based on Charlotte Mason who was born in 1842. So has some timeless truths in some of the ways that she approached education and a liberal education, and what that means to really educate whole people. She is well known in some circles. And then many people that are listening may not have heard of Charlotte Mason. So tell us a little bit about where you find hope in Charlotte Mason for where we're at now as we have these, as you use the term entrepreneurs. As we think about that, well, how do we stick to these timeless truths with all these different delivery mechanisms and ways we can deliver education? Where do you see those things overlapping?Deani Van Pelt:Yeah, great question. And indeed, she died just over 100 years ago, so what on earth are we doing talking about a person... How on earth? The turn of the 20th century but indeed there are some timeless principles. And I love Charlotte Mason's idea about education being about relations, relationships or education being the science of relations. If you think of that as a metaphor for what it is we're actually trying to do as educators, it's a fruitful notion. So if you think about the purpose of education is to build relationships as Charlotte Mason would say, in four different areas. So relationship with self, relationship with others, so others being people who lived in the past, people who live now in other places maybe than your own context, but also your own context and thinking about people who'll live in the future. You say, "Oh yeah, this makes sense."Well, and then the third type of relationship, relationship with the universe. Well, what's that? Nature, all of the aspects of the universe, science around us. And then fourthly, relationships with God, relationship with the divine. Understanding that the child has the whole person, does include the spiritual, the emotional, the intellectual aspects. So if you think about all of what we do under this umbrella of relationship building and that all of education is about, it has this relational feeling, that makes sense. But then on top of it, Mason says, "Students, people, children are born persons." And she doesn't say they're born individuals, she says they're born persons. So her anthropology talks about personhood. And I did some digging a little while ago because that just started bothering me, what does she mean by this? Why is this so revolutionary? In Canada women were declared persons in 1929. Okay, so legally we became persons less than 100 years ago. Is that-Jon Eckert:That's good to know, major jump.Deani Van Pelt:But it wasn't just that legal definition, it was more than that. What is personhood? If you hold that view of the human being that they are persons, it means that you hold to the fact that they are born into and born for relationship. So the idea is that the child as a person isn't an individual, lonely, isolated, autonomous, even just self-centered and sort of almost free floating. We can start getting pretty negative if we use the sense of the child as an individual. But if we think about the child as a person, they're born into something already preexisting. They're in a certain time and place, born into certain relationships, and then born for relationship. That's what I love about Mason. If you say your education philosophy is for a certain thing and then it's rooted in your anthropology or understanding of the human person, it's a pretty coherent philosophy. I like that. I love as well that it's got that whole theological side and well-rounded side. So obviously it has some practical implications. What does a relational education look like?Jon Eckert:Well, and I love that piece about it being relational. And when we think about the highest form of understanding in the US, Wiggins and McTighe wrote the book Understanding by Design. And they put at the top level of understanding empathy. And it makes a lot of sense because in order to understand anything, you have to understand yourself and your place in it. But to be able to understand the perspective of someone else, you understand the concept well enough that you can actually understand it from the perspective of another person, that feels like a timeless truth about what it is to truly understand and very much grounded in Charlotte Mason. One other thing that came to mind when you shared that is Arthur Brooks' book From Strength to Strength. He ends his book with this, basically this is his life motto, and it is to use things, love others and worship the divine. That's it. He's like, we don't use people, we use things. We don't love things, we love others. And ultimately our goal is to worship the divine. That feels like that would fit pretty nicely with Charlotte Mason, would you agree?Deani Van Pelt:Oh, absolutely. And then to go back to the first point that you made about empathy, Charlotte Mason would say, especially when you're introducing a subject to a child, teach it through literature, teach it through what she called living books. Textbooks are great. You want to drill down and learn more about a certain topic, but don't introduce it. Use living books, use a story, beautiful language to pull a child into a setting, a time, a place, build that empathy. And we've learned that if the amygdala is stimulated, learning's going to be more solid. So stimulate the emotions, draw the child into a topic area. And I just love that sense like that and many good educators use that practice. Of course, as you say, it's a timeless idea. Use the story, use great books, living books to bring a child into caring about ideas and things.So the other aspect to build the full person, because you did talk about Arthur Brooks saying use things, is that education will happen by books and things. The child does have that intellectual, the emotional but they also have the physical. And if we include in our education, a lot of use of our hands, building, creating, making, that helps build another aspect of the personhood and creates obviously a certain kind of confidence and an engagement with the world that has many levels to it. So books and things as a full education in Charlotte Mason's approach. And I was looking at what some of your definitions are for engaged learning. I love your book, Just Teaching, and just so happy to be able to refer back to it. But you talk about the consolidation and creation as being part of being engaged. And Mason has this notion called narration.So let's say think of a child early in their education, we read a living book, we read the story and then the child tells back. So verbally telling back what they just heard, retelling. And we've learned that narration it's not a test to see if you caught what was in the story, but it's by that very act of giving back you are consolidating the ideas, you're making them your own, you're verbalizing. So now we're developing oracy. And so the thoughts become the child's own, that is the process of learning. It's not the test but narration is the way of consolidating. Then the creation side is, okay, how do we verbally explain later on a child's education? Their narration will take written forms, but it can also take other forms. They create items that are ways of narrating their learning. So love your definition of engagement. And I think it does draw on timeless principles that Mason brought upJon Eckert:Well, and so I would totally agree with that. And I say it's the four Cs. You got to have content. Kids have to be able to consolidate. They need to be able to collaborate with peers, with teachers. And then the creation piece, what I love about the narration piece and how it relates to creation is when you're narrating you're bringing yourself to it. And you're understanding fully the concepts that you're narrating. It's like a kid who reads Shakespeare and doesn't understand it. It's just reading words and phonemes and putting them together with no sense making. But that narration, they're creating meaning in the way they do the narration. So it's not summarization, it's not just a regurgitation, it's actual the way you just described it according to Mason, it is creation. And I always say in the book, it's feedback, engagement and wellbeing. To get to interesting feedback where you're giving purpose-driven wisdom for growth, that's how I define feedback, you've got to have that deep engagement.Otherwise, what are you giving feedback on? If it's just surface level learning, it's not very interesting to give feedback on. You can't give very much. And so ultimately that kind of narration and creation of meaning as we pursue truth together becomes this powerful interchange between teacher and student. And I think is why most of us that love teaching keep coming back to it because that's the meaningful part. So yeah, I don't know if you'd add anything there because if you want to have a final thought on that, go ahead and then we'll jump into our lightning round to wrap things up.Deani Van Pelt:Well, that's fantastic. But Charlotte Mason did say, in the end, it's not how much a child knows it is how much they care. And building these relationships, building this care for many orders of things opens a full life for the child. And you talked about that. Charlotte Mason recommends a liberal education, a full liberal arts education. Some young children are having up to 20 subjects a day, just small amounts, beautiful poetry, some beautiful music, engagement with a variety of literature that touches a whole bunch of subjects, history, art, geography. So you keep the feast, the banquet is full, you engage a lot of ideas in really rich ways and that does open doors of not only knowledge but also care. And I just think that is a full education along the lines of what exactly what you talk about.Jon Eckert:Well, that's a perfect transition to the lightning round because I think in our TikTok generation, we may need to rethink how do we give kids bits and pieces in small amounts so that they can be drawn in and then they can develop the cognitive endurance. So for the lightning round, we're just going to give bits and pieces of what would be big answers, but we keep these to a word phrase or a sentence or so. We'll test your ability to do that and I'm terrible at this one. But first question, maybe an easy one, I know you read a lot. What's been your favorite book? It could be education related, doesn't have to be, but favorite book you've read in the last year?Deani Van Pelt:I have spent the last six months reading a lot of novels. And a girlfriend and I sat on a dock this past summer, and she was just sharing, "Deani, you don't read enough literature." So I made a decision to read a lot of contemporary literature that come recommended. So in the last few weeks I have read, it's not necessarily my favorite book but it's caught my attention. It's called the Whalebone Theater. And recently published, I'm blanking on the author, children raised in sort of unusual circumstances in an English manor house, but they love Shakespeare. And it's these children, there are all three half siblings. And how Shakespeare and their own navigation of the world leads to some really courageous acts during World War 11.Jon Eckert:All right. Well, that's Joanna Quinn is the author. Does that sound right to you?Deani Van Pelt:Yeah.Jon Eckert:Typically, I spend 95% of my time reading nonfiction, but I've been increasingly convicted that fiction and reading novels really builds empathy because it allows you to get in the heads of different characters. And so I have been encouraged to read more literature. My problem with that is I get so sucked into the story that I become a bad father, I become a bad husband, I become a bad employee. All I want to do is read the book. So I read nonfiction somewhat protectively because I can set that down. A good story, oh, it is rough. All right, well, that's good. Good recommendation. I'll file that one away. So if you were to say in a word, phrase, or sentence, what you see is the biggest challenge facing education right now, what would it be?Deani Van Pelt:Jon, I wish you would've asked me what the biggest hope is for education.Jon Eckert:Well, that's next. We can start with hope if you want, we can end with challenge. I usually like to start with the challenge first, but you can go with hope first and then we can talk about a challenge.Deani Van Pelt:The biggest hope that we have for education is that so many actors are caring about it right now. So many new providers, teachers, community members, thinking about... They're asking the question, could this be different? And if so, can we do it? And their answer is yes.Jon Eckert:Okay. So if you're struggling with the challenge, if that is the biggest opportunity, I would say the potential biggest challenge with that is how do you find coherence and how do you have any type of connectivity? Or is it just 1000 flowers blooming and you just see what it is. But I could see there being challenges. It's great to have that many people interested, that many people with ideas of what could work. But how do you try to make sure that there is quality in that and what would that look like? Do you see that as a challenge or are you just kind of like, let's just see what happens?Deani Van Pelt:So I love the let's see what happens, but we need to quickly get a balance. As our friend from Boston University, Charlie Glenn would say, "We've got to balance freedom, autonomy, and accountability in education." So I love pluralism in education. It is not a one size fits all. Thank you world for finally realizing we've got a wide diversity of needs and challenges, but let's balance the freedom, the autonomy with accountability. Are we going to get the accountability right? What does that look like state by state, jurisdiction by jurisdiction? That could be our biggest challenge.Jon Eckert:Yeah. No, I like that. And that's a great place to wrap up in that tension. So Deani, thank you for spending time with us today. Love the work you're doing. Really appreciate you taking the time and I'll let you contribute.Deani Van Pelt:Thanks for having me, Jon. It's great to be here.
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Mitch Weathers, the founder of Organized Binder, discusses his work and the importance of teaching executive functioning skills in schools. He explains that his program, Organized Binder, helps students develop organization and executive functioning skills, which are crucial for academic success. Weathers emphasizes the need for explicit instruction and modeling of these skills, as well as the importance of creating safe and predictable learning environments. He also discusses his new book, "Executive Functions for Every Classroom," which provides practical strategies for teachers to implement in their classrooms. Weathers believes that by prioritizing the teaching of executive functioning skills, schools can better support students and help them succeed academically.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged.Connect with us:Baylor MA in School LeadershipJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Mentioned:Organized BinderExecutive Functions for Every Classroom by Mitch WeathersThe Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain by Annie Murphy PaulWhat I Talk About When I Talk About Running by Haruki MurakamiEffortless by Greg McKeownHungry Authors Podcast Jon Eckert:Welcome back to the Just Schools podcast. Today, we're here with Mitch Weathers, who started a really fascinating intervention for kids called Organized Binder. That is the dream of every parent, and as a foreign middle school teacher, as a middle school teacher, that was a dream for me. I did my best, but I think I would've loved this tool. So, we're going to welcome Mitch in and then let him introduce himself... Mitch, if you'd just give us a little bit of a sense of what brought you to this work of Organized Binder and what makes you hopeful about it.Mitch Weathers:Thank you, Jon. Super honored, thrilled, humbled to be here and chatting with you. This work came to me early on in my teaching career. I started in the nonprofit space. I was actually a director in a program called Young Life, which you might be familiar with, and I only bring that up to say, developing relationships with kids, young people, I had just really learned to do that and saw the value in leveraging relationships and education and learning.So, when I got into the classroom and I found myself in a big comprehensive Title I public high school teaching for the first time, and I remember clearly my first year or two having more than 40 kids in the class, and these were tough kids, they had struggled academically, most of them multi-language learners. And I just liked being there, the management, the relationships. I just kind of had that in my toolkit. This is all in hindsight, looking back.But I realize now after being in education for over 20 years, those first few years for most teachers, even if they're fresh out of college, it's kind of like learning to interact and communicate with a different species. It's like, "How do I do this part of it and yet I'm hired to do this?"I think there was something there for me that allowed me to focus on, "Why aren't you achieving?" And I had spent a lot of time in graduate school and reading Paul Freire's work and critical pedagogy and equity, and I was just like, "Why aren't you achieving? You're incredibly capable. You've been viewed through a deficit lens, most of your academic experience, I get that. How do we change that narrative?" And then it kind of just dawned on me like, "Oh, you don't know how to do school in the sense that I think maybe you should and certainly you can."And I just started trying to answer the question, what has the greatest impact on student learning and student success. Not that I was an expert. And maybe because I was so new, that being naive to just try stuff and not really know any better. But if I couldn't really have that through line and make that connection with... And I've learned as well, oftentimes in education, we do what was done to us. I get into the class, this is how I experienced it, and now I'm a teacher and I'm going to do some of those things. And it became clear to me, homework, for example, "How am I using homework? Why am I using homework? How is it guiding my instruction? How is it helping students be successful?" And I just tried to answer that question, and from that lace, over the next two years this program now called Organized Binder evolved.Jon Eckert:So, I think any teacher that has spent any time, especially with 40 kids in a classroom, we'll recognize that there is a wide range of executive functioning. And one of the most important things we can do, even more so than what we're doing with our content, I'm a huge proponent of teaching engaging content, because then what's the point of executive functioning? We don't want this to be a compliance exercise, but we do want them to be able to be functioning human beings.And one of the frustrations, and you brought up some philosophers, and you talked about critical theory and Freire, I always got frustrated with the philosophers because it was, "What's the practical benefit of this?" You can write the pedagogy of the oppressed, but ultimately, what I want to know is how do I make that kid's life a little better because of the skills and tools that I've given. And I feel like Organized Binder is a very practical outcome of that. So now, it's a tool that you can sell, that you can go on, you can find it online for sure.But what I love about what you've done is you've broadened that out and now you've got a book that's coming out from Corwin, and it's a new book, Executive Functions for Every Classroom, Creating Safe and Predictable Learning Environments, Grades 3-12. And so, I think when you hear, when a kid hears safe and predictable, or an adult hears that, like, "Oh, that's not very exciting," but in fact, that's the place where learning can really flourish. So, talk a little bit about those principles from Organized Binder that you're now writing about through this book. What would be two or three key takeaways that everyone could apply this week to their teaching?Mitch Weathers:Right. And you touched on it there, there was a bunch of things you said I wanted to respond to.Jon Eckert:Oh, and jump into anything. You know how these go. If you haven't listened to these podcasts before, it's kind of wherever we want them to go. So, Mitch, you feel free to answer whatever you want to answer.Mitch Weathers:Right. Yeah. And I think we're kindreds in the sense of... Here's the way I actually explain it, the idea of developing these skills and habits versus the content, and there's a tension there because teachers are hired to teach content. That's our job. There's no teacher I'm aware of that was hired to teach executive functioning skills and-Jon Eckert:Well, I think some kindergarten teachers, that's the main thing they do. The first grade teachers want those executive functions.Mitch Weathers:Those are the folks that just get it, right? When I'm in conversations with a kinder teacher, they're just like, "Yes." The older, we move up the grades, so you get it. And I like to say it this way, that it's not one's more important than the other. Of course, engaging content and curriculum, all of that. But there is an order of operations that we've missed historically and we've not explicitly taught these skills.And so, yeah, the book was a fun exercise for me because my language and my speaking and teaching and et cetera, et cetera has been kind of through that Organized Binder lens. And I tried to back up from that and say, "Okay, what could we create and provide for teachers, a resource, or educators in general, and I even think parents, that may not be working with an Organized Binder program and they haven't brought it to their school in all of this work we do?"And I will say that both of these, you hit the nail on the head. One thing that I did over and over and over, I went through this summer of, this Freirean summer, I'll call it, in graduate school. I just finished graduate school, and where I'd encountered all this, and I think in my first or second year teaching, and I literally read every book translated into English from him. I couldn't get enough of it.Jon Eckert:You're a better man than I am.Mitch Weathers:But the whole time I was asking myself the question, "So, what's this mean in the modern classroom?" It's amazing. I mean, it's great work. But like you said, how do I translate this? And that's part of that Organized Binder journey. And then, now the next kind of iteration of that is trying to write this book.And I think there's three keys to teaching executive functions. And I'll stop there and say the irony is I don't actually believe that executive functions are taught in the traditional sense of the word. I think they're best learned when students see them modeled for them, hence an organized binder, something I can see. And I get routine practice using them or employing them by virtue of engaging in this predictable learning routine. So, the three keys for teaching executive functions, even though they're not taught, is clarity, routine and modeling.And what I've done is translated... For those that don't know Organized Binder, or let me say it a different way, if you've ever been to an Organized Binder training, you know that we model for you and unpack and explain this daily learning routine, and it's very simple. It's got a very small-time footprint in the classroom. And the reason for that is, I mentioned before, teachers are hired to teach something and they never have enough time to get through that in the first place. So, if I come along with a curriculum on teaching executive functions, where are you going to fit it in? So, there's a time crunch for teachers.So, if we can adopt, and there's a shared component to this, that remind me to come back to that, as sharing the routine, if you will, but if I can implement this really predictable learning routine, which is really just trying to exploit historically underutilized class time, which is the first few minutes and the last few moments of class, can be hard to really extract all we can out of those. But if by virtue, if I create this predictable learning routine... And that's where that safe piece comes in, Jon. I believe the more predictable the learning environment, the safer it is for students. And when students routinely or consistently feel safer, then they're more likely to take risks that are inherent to learning. And that's even truer for students who are navigating chaos outside of school. This profound impact of, "I feel safer here," and it might be one of the moments in my day that I get that experience because I might not at other times.Jon Eckert:And I want to pause right there for a minute because this is one of the things I've been wrestling with. So, I completely agree that that predictability and the safety of knowing this is what the routine is, especially when they're in a world that dis-regulates them all the time, where nothing seems stable, that is safety. It is not boring routine. It's not something to be taken for granted.I feel like though, in some cases, especially for kids that have been marginalized, we have oversold the idea of safety, especially when you get to middle school and high school, where if you're a marginalized kid that's been through a lot of trauma, school's rarely going to feel safe for you. And if you wait until it feels safe to take a risk, you're going to be waiting a long time, because it's really not going to be there for you.So, I've been pushing on this a little bit, saying, "Hey, I think we really want these to be respectful spaces that have space for psychological safety, because it has to be, but we need to be celebrating the risks kids take that don't feel safe." So, how do we highlight that kid that when they're in that predictable, safe space, some of the routines that you're saying, "Hey, this creates this, I think that's right," but then, how do we as educators and with their peers celebrate the courage it takes to speak out when it doesn't feel safe? Because I feel like in some ways we've oversold terms like safe and wellbeing and these other things. If they start to believe that being safe and that their is attended to means that they're not going to be stretched, that's actually counter to what actual learning is.Learning in itself is uncomfortable. It's going a little beyond what you thought you could do. It's a little beyond what you could do the day before. You don't become a better runner by running the same amount every day. You've got to stretch, you've got to speed up, you've got to... And so, we have to keep that in mind, where I think sometimes now we've oversold the wellbeing and the safety. Obviously, those are important. I'm not saying they're not important.Mitch Weathers:I hear you, 100%.Jon Eckert:You know what I mean?Mitch Weathers:Yep.Jon Eckert:So, how do you stretch? And I feel like some of the stuff you're saying is about stretching. Do you agree or disagree? I mean, do you feel like I'm just parsing words here. What are your thoughts?Mitch Weathers:I couldn't agree more. I think there's two words you said there. Well, one, there's the number runner. So, I get that discomfort if you're going to either learn to run longer or learn to run faster, there is that parallel. But celebrating not so much the discomfort, but the willingness to take the risk-Jon Eckert:The courage.Mitch Weathers:Yeah. And celebrate it even if you didn't get the grade. I mean, whatever that context is. I think that celebration part is right. But I love the word you said, respectful spaces. I hit on this in the book, about just cultural competency and who's sitting in the room, what do you know about them as individuals, as cultures. Who's in this learning community, because you can't have respect... I mean, you can respect someone you don't know, I guess. But to really honor and respect them and create those spaces, which yes, have to be safe, but also celebrate that, I think I couldn't agree more. What safety's not, it's like fluffy posters on the wall of two bears hugging each other and some dumb slogan that... It just doesn't even register, especially for the kids you're talking about and the kids that I was working with.Jon Eckert:And so, you mentioned you wanted me to remind you to get back to the shared component of routine. To me, this is part of the shared component of routine because it's not about my individual routine, it's about our routine together. Because there's this social dynamic in a classroom where a teacher can be really efficient, an individual kid can be really efficient, but how do you function as a learning organization in a way that is respectful and celebrates the things that really matter. So, I want to make sure you get back to that shared routine part. But do you see an overlap with this idea of creating a respectful space with this shared routine? Or am I taking you down a tangent that's not helpful?Mitch Weathers:No, I like that because I think anytime a [inaudible 00:14:53], and I've personally experienced this, but the school I was working at, where I spent most of my career as a classroom teacher, the year after Organized Binder was fully baked, the ninth grade adopted it school-wide. And lots of things we can talk about happened there and collective teacher efficacy and all in this together. But what that means, a shared routine could talk about how that reduces cognitive load for kids, especially multi-language kids. But by virtue of something being shared or collective, we have to dialogue about it. What is the common language, what are the common expectations. If our goal as a teaching community or a school is to have respectful learning environments, well, we're all in that, what's that mean together. I think the conversations that come about inherent to that trajectory or that aim are where the real work is done. Where I was mentioning with the routine, that's just one of those shared components.Jon Eckert:Yeah, no, that's good. I mean, when you just described that, it made me think of this book that I had read a year or two ago. It's called The Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain by Annie Murphy Paul. And it's the idea that we offload functions to people that we trust. So, it's that when somebody's been married to someone for 50 years and one of the partners passes away and they say it feels like a part of them died, and in fact, that is true. So, if you have had a partner, so my wife manages all our finances, so in my mind, I've offloaded that part of my brain to her. And so, she passes away, I have lost that part of my mind.And so, in a classroom, I feel like we offload a lot of those things. And so, it doesn't make it so we don't have a high cognitive demand, but it makes it so that the classroom functions at a higher level for everyone because you have different people that are responsible for different components of it. And it's not that you don't learn what you're responsible for, but you function as more than the sum of your parts.Do you see that playing out? Again, I don't know if you've even heard of the extended mind, but when you started sharing that shared routine part, it is this kind of, "How do we collectively do more than we thought we were capable of?" And I think that expands to the school. We're talking classroom, but you mentioned the teachers that you worked with and what happened when you did it at ninth grade. What does that free up for you? Have you seen any aspects where executive functioning is enhanced when you have others leaning into that?Mitch Weathers:Yeah, I think so. And I think it's also worth saying, when it's collective or shared, whether that be grade level, department, school-wide, it's a lot of the work we do, we're talking a lot about students, but there's a number of teachers that struggle with executive dysfunction as well. And just saying-Jon Eckert:I'm one of them at times.Mitch Weathers:I think we all are, right? But I'm just thinking of, and let me know if this answers what you're saying, if that is the teacher, I mean, we've walked into those classrooms where the teacher clearly struggles organizationally, you can just see it when you walk in. And when those teachers are coming together collectively as a community, and I love how you say sum of all the parts, I mention this in the book, that a learning community is the sum of all of its parts. And if someone's not there, then it's changed. It's not the same. It's all about belonging and having kids be a part of the class.But when we come together and we commit and say, "Hey, we're going to implement this routine," let's say, whatever that is shared, if that's an Organized Binder school, and then the training and support that we provide coming in, those teachers, in some ways, I like the analogy, they've kind of offloaded that cognitive load because it's not in their wheelhouse. And all of a sudden, I'm telling you, I've seen this in real time, and I don't like to use the word better, but they're a better teacher. It's just that they haven't gotten around to getting organized or they're-Jon Eckert:Why do you not like using the word better? I mean, isn't that the whole goal? How do we keep-Mitch Weathers:Yeah, I know. I just-Jon Eckert:... getting better. I mean, that's what I think your products and tools do. It helps us be better teachers, better learners. I mean, to me, we have an innate desire to be better. None of us want to be evaluated or judged, but we all want to get better, right?Mitch Weathers:Absolutely.Jon Eckert:So, I love the word better, but yes, own it.Mitch Weathers:Yeah. I like that analogy, when you say, "Can I offload that?" Well, let's say it this way, I can't tell you how many teachers, veteran teachers that have come to me over the last 10 to 20 years and said, "One, this is all the things I always knew I need to be doing, and I either just don't know how to make it a reality or I don't have the time to get to it, and I'm focusing on my content." This is some of the most humbling experiences in this, it's saying, "This work literally saved my career. I was going to retire this year and I went to a presentation and I'm so invigorated again."But here's the deal. This is maybe that offloading piece, is I don't ever want to be responsible for conducting a talk or a keynote or a presentation or a professional development training that inspires educators, but requires so much work on the backside to make it a reality. This is that Freirian thing you're saying, even if it's great, it's going to end up on the shelf and less likely to be implemented. So, it's back to that practical... If a teacher or a school leader reads this book tomorrow in class, there's things that can be started, there's conversations that can be had with the staff around those strategies. It's very practical and relevant in that sense.Jon Eckert:So, I'm kind of bummed Corwin didn't ask me to endorse the book, because then I would've already been able to read it. So, I'll have to pick it up on my own. But this will be a good read. I think there's a lot of overlap between what I write about and what you're doing, and so, love that. So, thank you for that.I want to go to our lightning round here. So, one of the things that, I want to start with this one, so it's a word, sentence or phrase that a teacher could do tomorrow to help with executive functioning of their students that wouldn't take any extra work on their part, would just be a streamlining of something they already do or something... Is there something, because again, I'm all with you, I do not want teachers who already have overflowing plates to feel like whatever I share with them is adding another thing to the plate, so, can you think of something in the book that's like, "Hey, you can do this. It wouldn't actually take any more time, but it would be life-giving for you and your students." Anything that pops to mind?Mitch Weathers:What pops to mind is organization. Of the six skills, the six executive functions outlined in this book, the inherent Organized Binder, not one is more important than the other, but I do think the starting place is a simple table of contents and organizing the curriculum and content that's already there. It would take almost, I'm not going to say no extra time, but if you read that chapter, we're talking, especially once it's in place, if it's just a step in the routine, we do this and then we update our table of contents, what happens, and there's some stories that we don't have time for right now that I tell in the book. Students and teachers feel better when they're organized, and maybe it should just be humans feel better when we're organized.And once I can get organized, then I kind of feel like I have the capacity to learn and practice some of these other skills. It's hard to engage with the learning community when I don't even know where my stuff is. I can't tell you as a parent, you've probably been there, every parent has, trying to help their kid with homework and it's like, "Do you have anything from school today from math?" But if you do, it's a starting place. So, I hope that answers your question.Jon Eckert:It does. And I have to tell you, and it just hit as you were sharing that, when I first started teaching, I started teaching fifth grade, and I had a veteran teacher who taught fifth grade right next to me, Priscilla Lane, who was one of the best teachers I ever worked with. And she walked in about two or three weeks before every unit, and she would hand me a binder that she had copied and made and had a cover for each of the major units we were going to do. And she told me, "The best gift I can give you as a new teacher is organization." And it totally made my beginning year-Mitch Weathers:You were lucky.Jon Eckert:I was so lucky because it was good stuff. And she shared it freely and she gave it to me in this organized way, where all of a sudden everything made sense. So then when I moved to Tennessee, I went to Vanderbilt for my doctoral work, and when I was there, I was going through a doctoral program and I started teaching middle school science, which I'd never taught before.And what I did was I came in and I made a binder of, I took all of the standards for seventh grade science and I distilled them down into 25 essential questions, five main units. So, I had five binders for each of the units, and it made it so... By then, I'd been teaching for eight years and I could apply what she had done for me at the beginning. And it allowed me to not be overwhelmed in the middle of a doctoral program while I was coaching and teaching and doing all these things, because it was manageable and it was in a binder. So, there you go. So, the theme runs through.All right, so we did a terrible job on that first lightning round question. And I'm always terrible at the lightning round, but it's an aspiration.Mitch Weathers:Is the lightning round meant to be a lightning response too, quick?Jon Eckert:Yes.Mitch Weathers:Okay. I'll try it this time.Jon Eckert:I'm terrible. This one's easier. Favorite book you've read in the last year?Mitch Weathers:Okay. I can only pick one?Jon Eckert:One of your top five. Just pick one.Mitch Weathers:Okay. I'm just going to go random on this because I really enjoyed it. What I Talk About When I Talk About Running, and I'm going to butcher the author's last name, he's a Japanese novelist who wrote this non-fiction kind of memoir book about running, What I Talk About When I Talk About Running. And it's just a great read, and keep in mind, Jon, and anyone listening, in the last year, I read more books in the last year, including I think your latest, Just Teaching, which I absolutely loved. And then left it at a house this summer, where I had holed up to finish off my manuscript, and I brought all these books that I had been reading over the last year and left them all at this house on the coast. And I've been working at the rental place. I don't know, they might be gone. Anyway, this book, I'm long distance trail runner and I'm always kind of pushing myself, again, through line. And this was just a great read.Jon Eckert:Okay. No, I just pulled it up, and I will not attempt to say the author's name either, but it looks fascinating. It's a memoir, so I love the course. That's great.No, and when you're writing a book, you read so many things. I mean, I always read a lot, but when I'm in the middle of a book, I'm always trying to pull in like, "Okay, oh, there's that."Mitch Weathers:Constant.Jon Eckert:And then, your brain is just on overload, then you have to organize it, you have to dump. I have files where I've dumped all kinds of things, so I'm with you. All right.Mitch Weathers:Can I just say one thing about that because you said, "Then you have to organize it," it actually just released sometime, I'll say it released in mid-January, I was on a podcast with, it's called the Hungry Authors podcast, and we talked about book mapping. Basically, if I didn't have a map, there is no way I would've completed the task. And you probably know that better than me.Jon Eckert:Well, I've written a lot of stuff. I could have completed a task, no one would've wanted to read it.Mitch Weathers:Maybe that's the way.Jon Eckert:So, I could have written something, it just wouldn't have been intelligible. So, yeah, I'm with you. All right, so best advice you've ever received?Mitch Weathers:Oh, gosh, good one. You can't go wrong treating people right.Jon Eckert:Oh, I've not gotten that one before. I like that.Mitch Weathers:A friend of mine said that. I was listening to one of his webinars or a talk he was giving and he said it and didn't even remember saying it. And I wrote it down in my journal like, "Wow, let's just lean into that."Jon Eckert:Similar. I had a friend who's a pre-K teacher, and he shared once, he's like, "No profession can compete with the spark between souls that occurs between teachers and students." And it was just this offhanded comment. But ever since, I've just been like, "Oh, that's it."Mitch Weathers:If you've experienced that, that is true.Jon Eckert:That's what gets you coming back. So, I love those offhanded quotes of people who aren't famous and never will be famous, but just to have an insight that's like, "Oh," it's kind of a breakthrough moment.So, all right, worst piece of advice you've ever received?Mitch Weathers:That's a tough one, Jon. I try to obviously not remember those.Does anyone ever get stumped by these questions?Jon Eckert:I like the pauses because it feels authentic. I will say the one we get 80% of the time on that one is when they first started teaching, they were told not to smile until Thanksgiving. And that whole idea that you communicate that you're in charge by basically not communicating any immediacy or appreciation of another is horrific advice. So, our job is, teaching is one of the most human things we do. And to just take out any facial connection would be-Mitch Weathers:Oh, gosh.Jon Eckert:It was what was challenging during COVID, when we had masks covering half our faces, we could not read people. I mean, you can tell some from the eyes, but you're missing half of your visual cues on a face. And so, to tell people to not smile, I mean, what a horrific way to live and teach. So, I get that one a lot.I'm glad you have a hard time remembering worst advice.Mitch Weathers:Well, yeah, I was thinking more like big life bad advice.Jon Eckert:Well, that's good too.Mitch Weathers:But I can tell you, if you want to stay in the teacher vein, I had a different experience with the veteran teacher down the hall, who was very caring and stopped by, and was there... I'm a pretty early riser. She would be there before me and she would be leaving with the custodial staff at night. And she had children at home and married. And I remember asking her about it, because even me as a new teacher, and again, I didn't get into the classroom until late twenties, early thirties, so I had these other experiences, but I was like, "I feel like you're," I didn't say this to her, "But you're working too much. This isn't a sustainable model." Yet she's this veteran teacher and she told me... I asked her about her family and whatnot and she said, "Well, the way I structure it, and I encourage you to think about this, is family time is summer and work time is the school year." And I was like, "Wow." And she just worked and worked and worked.Here's what I gleaned from that, is just working hard and long hours is not necessarily being effective. We can be efficient and be effective, and that's that... What exactly is going to have an impact on students? And if it doesn't, why am I doing it and how can I shift and be more efficient, more effective, that kind of thing.So, I guess, I'd lump that into some advice. I didn't take her advice. I mean, I definitely, of course, like any new teacher, was there with her quite a bit, which is why we had these conversations after dark and no one else on campus. But I love to become more efficient.Jon Eckert:Yeah, I think so many teachers do follow that burnout as a badge of honor and that everything requires the extra mile and they get into this exhausting framing. Greg McKeown talks about it in his book, Effortless, how do we make the work we do life giving. And a quick way to have more time for work is to continue that kind of principle because you all of a sudden aren't going to have a family. If nine months out of the year this is for school and you get the three months here, that obviously doesn't work in a sustainable way for many, many people. I lump that into bad advice.The last question, we'll end on a positive note. What's your best hope for education as you look ahead right now?Mitch Weathers:I absolutely know what I want to say about that as opposed to the last question. I think we're just now beginning to see the impacts and effects and learn from what happened over the last four years, the first year of the pandemic on students in particular. If there's one silver lining for the work that I'm really passionate about is I've spent a lot of years, Jon, trying to, I wouldn't say convince, but a lot of years talking about, "Hey, all these skills and habits that we kind of formally hoped students developed on their own, we have to explicitly teach and model these. This is what lays the foundation for learning. This is what builds capacity and agency and all that."It seems now, and especially in the last 12 months, there's a collective shift to like, "We need to be doing that." The number of inquiries that are coming in through the Organized Binder site or people interested about the book, and here's the crazy thing, on every continent, I'm fortunate enough to have these wonderful conversations and work with people literally on every continent and every school is saying almost the exact same thing, that there's these gaps or there's an impact from that time on students and, "What are we going to do?" And if they've fallen behind in math, just giving them two math classes to accelerate them, we all know that's not going to work. So, I see a very hope future if we'll all take the teaching of executive functioning skills as serious as we do our content, curriculum, testing and technology, all these things that have their place in education, don't get me wrong, but that's what I'm hopeful for.Jon Eckert:Love that. So, looking forward to reading your book, Executive Functions for Every Classroom, Creating Safe and Predictable Learning Environments, Grades 3-12. This is from Corwin. So, really appreciate you taking the time, Mitch. It's great to have you and look forward to seeing the work that you continue to do.Mitch Weathers:Appreciate it, Jon. Thanks for having me.
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