Episodit
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FIRE exponents (Financial Independence Retire Early) Tim and Amy Rutherford of GowithLess.com have found the secret of early retirement and with the kids off their hands have now hit the road full time.
The covid world we now live in has put something of a spanner in the works for many permanent travellers including those, like Amy and Tim, who have just got underway. They wonât be letting this put paid to their careful planning however.
We caught up with them to discuss how to be flexible with your travel arrangements in the new covid environment we have to deal with and how to follow your travel dreams while taking an early retirement
Enjoy!
Tony and Leanne
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Travelling the world has its challenges at the best of times - but attempting to do it without flight is a whole new experience! Today we interview Dave and Di Taunton who, in 2016, decided to sell up and hit the road crossing the planet without the use of flight. They left their native Sydney and havent looked back. In this interview they share their experiences of how travelling by road and sea offers a unique perspective of the world and how their new lifestyle has enriched them. Sit back and enjoy their unique perspective on the world!
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Puuttuva jakso?
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Many of you will have enjoyed our previous podcast The Future of Travel in a Post Covid World where we discussed what will happen when the current lockdown situation comes to an end. This live event was an excellent chance to ask your questions of our live panel but as we have an audience spread across six continents we weren't able to do this at a time that suited everyone. With that in mind we decided to repeat our live event with The Future of Travel in a Post Covid World - Part 2 with a fresh panel of experts ready to share their thoughts and opinions of when and how we will be able to travel the world again. This time our panelists are FIRE retiree and minimalist traveller Amy Rutherford of GowithLess.com, Housesitting expert Jodie Burnham of NatnJodie.com and long time traveller and globe trotter Peter Pecksen of pecksen.com. We hope you enjoy listening to this discussion.
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Todays podcast is a recording of our recent live panel discussion on the Future of Travel in a Post Covid World. Joinng me are world renown travel blogger Barbara Weibel of Hole in the Donut .com Intrepid Aussie traveller Duncan Dempster Smith of To Travel Too.com and Co-editor of Housesitting Magazine Ian Usher of housesittingmagazine.com. These live panel discussions are a regular part of our interviews and gives you, the listener, the chance to participate with your own questions for our panelists. If you'd like to listen in and ask questions at our next live online event visit our website travatical.com, sign up for our free magazine, and we'll contact you when the next live online event is scheduled.
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Todays guests are Canadian travellers Peter and Karen Pecksen. We first met Peter and Karen while housesitting in Singapore. We noticed from their comments on a Facebook group that they were in town - we reached out to them and the next day were enjoying each others company over a nightmarket dinner and a couple of beers. Thats just the way travel rolls sometimes! Pete and Karen are hardcore. Theyve been travelling for six years with no signs of tiring! On the interview they share their unique incites into the world of travel and why they made their escape from the rat race. SIt back with a coffee, beer...or something stronger - and enjoy!
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It seems in this day and age most of the world has been explored. Trying to find a destination which isnât crowded with tourists and cameras is an increasingly difficult job. Todayâs interviewee however has found the perfect place to live where few people will bother him.
For most people the idea of a job for life would seem like perfect security. For Christian Bruttel life in the German education system as a teacher was enjoyable but he felt trapped, as if his life was already played out. When the opportunity to become a guide on the remote island of Svalbard came up he leapt at the chance to follow his dream.
Four years on heâs mastered everything from chasing off polar bears to building igloos and he has the photos and memories to prove it.
Christian joined us to discuss one of the most unique jobs in the world, why Svalbard is a place of such great beauty and how living in this unique location has changed his perspective on life.
You can check out Christians stunning photos and even purchase prints at his blog http://polarchris.blogspot.com/
What I learned from Christianâs interview:
I have to admit to having no idea about Svalbard (or Spitzbergen as itâs also known ) before I spoke with Christian but the picture he paints of some of the truly unique experiences there now makes me want to go. Where else can you find a place that gives you polar bears, whales, icebergs, igloos and the Northern Lights in a ready-made package? It sounds reasonably affordable to get to despite the limited opportunities for flights. Thanks to melting ice Christian does have the excitement of seeing things that may never have been seen by human eyes before but the melting is a reminder that our planet is susceptible to change and we must do all we can to protect areas like Svalbard for the sake of all of the planet. Remember Christian had no experience of this and have never been into the Arctic but he has developed a skill and a passion over the last 4 years. There are lessons for all of us in the journey he has made. -
It seems in this day and age most of the world has been explored. Trying to find a destination which isnât crowded with tourists and cameras is an increasingly difficult job. Todayâs interviewee however has found the perfect place to live where few people will bother him.
For most people the idea of a job for life would seem like perfect security. For Christian Bruttel life in the German education system as a teacher was enjoyable but he felt trapped, as if his life was already played out. When the opportunity to become a guide on the remote island of Svalbard came up he leapt at the chance to follow his dream.
Four years on heâs mastered everything from chasing off polar bears to building igloos and he has the photos and memories to prove it.
Christian joined us to discuss one of the most unique jobs in the world, why Svalbard is a place of such great beauty and how living in this unique location has changed his perspective on life.
You can check out Christians stunning photos and even purchase prints at his blog http://polarchris.blogspot.com/
What I learned from Christianâs interview:
I have to admit to having no idea about Svalbard (or Spitzbergen as itâs also known ) before I spoke with Christian but the picture he paints of some of the truly unique experiences there now makes me want to go. Where else can you find a place that gives you polar bears, whales, icebergs, igloos and the Northern Lights in a ready-made package? It sounds reasonably affordable to get to despite the limited opportunities for flights. Thanks to melting ice Christian does have the excitement of seeing things that may never have been seen by human eyes before but the melting is a reminder that our planet is susceptible to change and we must do all we can to protect areas like Svalbard for the sake of all of the planet. Remember Christian had no experience of this and have never been into the Arctic but he has developed a skill and a passion over the last 4 years. There are lessons for all of us in the journey he has made. -
Heading: How to Downsize for the Big Trip Ahead
One of the biggest and most emotional stages of preparing for an expat life is downsizing and leaving your current home. Itâs a process fraught with emotion and the job of determining what passes the test of fitting in your suitcase or backpack for the travels ahead is daunting for most people.
Today we speak to personal organizer Donna Donaldson about the process of preparing for your big move abroad. Donna has years of experience on helping people to downsize and declutter their homes and gives us a few great pointers on how to go about it without it turning into arguments, the tricks she uses to determine what stays and why you should think twice about putting things into storage
For more great advice from Donna check out her free decluttering report at http://declutterandorganizeit.com or for personal assistance her website http://organizeit.com.au
What I learned from Donnaâs interview:
Remind yourself what you are doing it for. If you focus on the big picture (the trip) each time you are looking at an item and deciding if it stays or not it will make it easier. Donât buy anything new. Resist the urge to keep adding stuff during the purge process. Tell friends and family you are traveling and you donât need more clutter for birthdays or Christmas, and definitely donât take the junk they are clearing out! Get a good system for paperwork. Only deal with it once and stop all junk mail. Scan important documents you need such as tax records as even in storage they are vulnerable to damage. Purge in waves. It is less intimidating and as you get better at it you will find it easier to keep eliminating more and more at every step. If you do have new stuff coming in make sure you remove one item at the same time â better still be tough and insist that several items must leave for every new arrival. -
Many of our interviewees have an ah-ha moment when the decision to travel becomes a reality. For Carmen Tseng it came while chopping mushrooms!
Her partner and her were discussing options for a holiday to Bali when the realization occurred to both of them that they could stay in a hotel there including breakfast each day for less than the cost of their suburban Perth apartment.
From there a plan was hatched. They had always loved travel and once they knew it cost them less than their old lifestyle they were in! They headed off from Australia in January of 2015 and have covered much of Asia before settling in their current location in Germany
Carmen joins us to discuss the moment she realized her new life was possible and how we all have skills that can be turned into a way of making money on the road.
You can follow her blog at http://www.twohundreddays.com and learn how your skills can be turned into the business of your dreams at http://www.gorgeoussuccess.com
What I learned from Carmenâs interview:
Ask yourself âwhat is the worst that can happenâ then be prepared to accept it. Sometimes the mind can blow things out of proportion and giving it a dose of reality may be all that is needed What skills do you have you can take with you? In Carmenâs case her retail success led to coaching other business owners and the seed of a business was started that she has continued to grow while on the road. John and Monika Mundell are another great example of how you can take a coaching business on the road with you. Udemy (http://click.linksynergy.com/fs-bin/click?id=N14wfIQJPlQ&offerid=323058.7&type=1&subid=0 ) offers an opportunity to sell your skills online. If you have a talent or knowledge for something you can create video courses and sell them through the Udemy platform. Carmen has also explored drop-shipping of product, an option also used by Johnny FD. It again shows that lots of small amounts can be enough to sustain you while on the go. -
For most people just moving to a foreign country would be a big enough challenge. Starting a new business from scratch while raising 7 children (5 adopted locally with special needs) and supporting a wife who has moved mountains in terms of helping eradicate leprosy from large rural areas of China would be a huge ask but for Joshua Jagelman itâs just another day at the office.
The office for Joshua is not normal however. He and his home schooled family divide their time between Chiang Mai in Thailand where some of his children receive treatment, his original home in Sydney where he has investments built up over the last ten years from his Chinese base and their two homes in China where his wife Alex works hard to continue serving rural communities in the areas of heath and nutrition.
If youâre a coffee lover check out the locations for Joshuaâs fine coffees by visiting http://ynct.co and http://pabloandrustys.com.au
What I learned from Joshuaâs interview:
Normally I come up with a list of the key learnings laid out step by step but too be honest Iâm still coming to grips with the extent to which Joshua has built a life that I donât think even he would have imagined 15 years ago. It would have been easy to have stayed teaching in Sydney and I guess he would still be there now if things hadnât changed. Instead living an expat life has introduced him to a remarkable woman on an amazing crusade, raising 7 children and creating successful businesses that have allowed him to give his family a freedom of lifestyle that others can only envy.
Most people spend their lives avoiding heartache and difficulties. The idea of voluntarily raising children in need of special assistance is not something that many of us would consider doing. The idea of working to eliminate one of the most debilitating health scourges would certainly be a bridge too far. The world is a better place for people like Joshua and Alex and it was a privilege to meet with Joshua and share his story today. I hope you enjoyed it too.
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In todayâs interview we speak with Martin and Lorena Cagnotti â two expat Argentinians who made the decision 13 years ago to move from their home town of Buenos Aires to the hubbub of Mexico City. After 7 years there they have now settled into the idyllic seaside community of Playa del Carmen where they are raising their two children through unschooling.
We met up with them to discuss living in one of the worldâs largest cities, why they moved to Playa del Carmen and to talk about many of the myths and fears round home schooling and unschooling children and why they feel it has been the best thing for their development.
You can follow their adventures and ask them questions about living in Playa del Carmen at their website, http://thenomadicadventures.com . If youâre a family and into home exchanging with other families of similar age then check out their new home swapping website www.familyhomeexchange.com
What I learned from speaking with Martin and Lorena:
Mexico City has an unfair reputation as an unsafe place to visit. The Cagnottiâs loved their time there and had no issues with safety. Mexico is a city of extremes in wealth and poverty yet all seem to live together side by side with no ill feeling or tension. Playa del Carmen offers a quieter lifestyle than the busier party town of Cancun only an hour away. If youâre after a slower pace of life itâs certainly an option with an increasing number of expat families and retirees settling there. Like any holiday town it has itâs tourists areas and local areas and itâs important to get out and about and explore beyond the beaches if looking to shift there (if you want to know more about Cancun check out our interview with Jen and Jay Kerwood) Unschooling is not about leaving your children to run amuck. It is really about letting them discover what they are interested in then showing them how to learn the relevant skills to help them. By understanding why they need to learn and how to practically apply it, it gives their learning more purpose and gives them a reason to learn. Unschooling or home schooling doesnât mean your children are outside the curriculum indefinitely. In Mexico they are still able to pass exams that allow them to tick the right boxes for further education and as Lainie Liberti also spoke about more and more colleges and universities are accepting children who have been raised in an unschooled environment. As Alyson Long and Andrew and Daryl Grant will also testify to unschooling or home schooling does not leave your children lacking for social interaction. The Cagnotti kids still attend classes in art and music and interact more often with other children who are being home schooled or unschooled than they would have done in the classroom environment. They love what unschooling has offered them and wouldnât change what they are doing. -
Not all expats move to cut costs and living the expat life doesnât have to mean living on the smell of an oily rag. Todayâs interviewees have transformed their lives from management consultants slogging the 9 to 5 and longer, to internet marketing experts who have built themselves a digital empire and given themselves the lifestyle and freedom theyâve always wanted.
In 2013 Andrew and Daryl Grant left the Gold Coast, Australia to enjoy the benefits of Bangkok, taking their two pre-teen children into a new way of living that an online business gives them the freedom to pursue.
Today we discuss with them why they love Bangkok, how home schooling their children has provided them with a better education than they would have received in school, and they share some of the secrets of how they built their own online businesses.
You can get some great advice on starting your own online business from their website resources at www.ourinternetsecrets.com
What I learned from speaking with Andrew and Daryl:
Although Bangkok has a pretty good transportation system the Grants have mastered the art of driving locally and purchased a car. It has enabled them to travel much further than the BTS system would allow them and they feel theyâve got to know the city much better for it. Bangkok is interesting in the sense that it acts like a series of villages. The way locals interact with each other - and the Grants - displays the sort of small town feel that a city of this size normally wouldnât have Daryl feels incredibly safe there, more so than in Australia, and has no qualms about allowing her 15 and 13 year old to travel around the city on their own They have found by home schooling the kids they get the opportunity to offer them so much more than a standard curriculum. Travel among other things is a big part of their education and the children have enjoyed some unique experiences they would never get in the classroom. They shared some great advice for building an online business including choosing a niche that you can be the expert in, setting up a business with continuity where you can be paid over and over for your services, and be persistent if you want results -
Many people we interview have life changing moments that serve as the catalyst to their new life abroad. For Dalene and Pete Heck it was a series of tragedies including the death of Peteâs mother and Daleneâs sister passing in her early 30âs that prompted the two Alberta, Canada natives that it was time to make the most of the time they had on this planet. They had been avid travelers during the holidays they had taken but their corporate jobs served as a restriction to the real time and energy they wanted to put in.
In 2009 they hit the road starting in Bolivia and covering much of South America. Since then they have built one of the worldâs biggest travel brands and work with many media companies helping them use the travel environment and travel bloggers to build awareness online.
You can check out their journey (and Peteâs wonderful pictures) at http://www.hecktictravels.com
What I learned from speaking with Dalene:
Itâs interesting how Pete and Dalene donât get tied into doing things that might make them more money but they donât enjoy. They are aware that building their online business and being a travel blogger is a long term journey and that they need to do what is their passion so it doesnât become a chore. Like Nat and Jodie these guys are also a fan of Nomador for finding housesitting gigs. They find it more personable and easier to deal with than some of the larger sites where it is harder to get good housesitting gigs. Again itâs about building a reputation and once you have it things get easier. Travel is about people. Their experience with the locals in Roatan where they were eventually asked to become god-parents to one of the local villagers â thatâs the sort of special experience that money canât buy. If you want to know more about Roatan check out our interview with Rika Purdey The world is not what the media portray. Dalene was very passionate about her experiences of countries, particularly Turkey, where the kindness of locals can be vastly different to the way the world is seen in the news. ( For more on Turkey check out Leonard Dursoâs interview) -
Trying to stay healthy on the road can sometimes be a bit of a nightmare â youâre pushed for time, youâre in a strange environment with no common reference points or places to eat and youâre at your most vulnerable when energy levels get low and stress might get high.
Todayâs guest is Karen Wojciechowski who knows first-hand the difficulties of taking care of yourself as an expat traveler. Sheâs left her native habitat in Perth Australia with her husband and after a stint in Canada is now living the digital nomad lifestyle in Chiang Mai, Thailand, where she has established her website www.realenergyfood.com offering advice and consultation on healthy eating.
We caught up with Karen where she talks about her experiences as an expat traveler and shares with us 7 tips for taking good care of yourself while you are traveling.
Youâll find Karenâs Facebook group where you can share advice and get tips at https://www.facebook.com/groups/realenergyfood
What I learned from Karenâs interview:
Drink lots of water. This may seem simple but is probably most peopleâs biggest let down. It can help reduce hunger pains and keep dehydration at bay. Particularly important if you have just changed climates from cold to warm and your body is still adjusting Choose your meal. Determine when you will be naughty or overindulge and be good for the rest of the day around it. Also donât think if you make an unhealthy start you might as well write the day off by continuing to eat badly. You can soon balance the day out again Bring your own snacks. This not only helps with costs (especially in more expensive countries) but gives you that most important element of all control. If you can control your snacks you will resist the urge to grab anything on the go It doesnât have to be long but just do something. Walking a new city you are in is not just a great way to see it but to get that exercise in. Karen has a step counter and can easily manage 30,000 strides while looking around. Keep your exercise shoes packed to make it easier and look out for some of those great 7 minute exercise apps that are available, and check out free fitness classes in new towns which might present different cultural experiences. Do meditation. This can help rebalance and destress you. Even just a few minutes helps. There are always travel downtime waiting for transport etc when you can manage a quick meditation. Again there are great apps that can help. Google healthy eating options before you go. Itâs better to go armed with information that again gives you control then arriving uninformed and going in an unhealthy direction. Ask the locals who can also help you out when you arrive. Make health a priority. If you donât focus on eating well and exercising each day it can soon get out of hand. If you make it a priority you have a better chance of getting the results you want and enjoying your travels more. -
Heading: Traveling the World Without Flying; Di and Dave Taunton
Todayâs guests havenât gone anywhere yetâŠbut they are about to! Di and Dave Taunton are only a few days away from their expat adventure. The catalyst for their nomadic lifestyle was a serious car accident Dave had 12 years ago. Re-evaluating life the two of them headed overseas with their children on a 5 year journey but 2 years in they decided they needed to return to give their children some normalcy.
Dave still felt he had unfinished business and with the kids now grown up he has persuaded Di that itâs time to hit the road again while they can.
Their journey is to tour the world without airplane using cruises and ferries to cross waterways. Starting in Bali they will work their way around much of Asia over the next 3-4 months before heading further afield.
We caught up with them to discuss the planning process to their trip and the fears concerns and excitement that they have about the journey ahead.
You can follow their fresh adventures at http://www.meanderingwanderers.com/
What I learned from Di and Daveâs interview:
I loved Diâs spreadsheet idea of having somewhere to throw all the information that you learn about as you go. Iâve been guilty of seeing or reading about somewhere interesting then promptly forgetting about it so Iâm now setting up my spreadsheet. Thanks Di! There is some great online resources. Di mentioned Trip Advisor of course but the Man in seat 61 is another great one if you are planning to travel by plane or ferry. There are other alternatives to flying and as the Mundells and Chuck and Lori Ros have found there are some great one way cruise deals that can be had for the price of an airfare. Getting advice from others is a great way to not only gather information but be inspired. Di and Dave credit many bloggers for the inspiration and advice they have provided. Planning is great in the early part of your trip, especially to give you confidence that you have a roof over your head. Many of our longer term travelers do this less as they go on and realize that short term plans can also work just as well. Weâve found hosting couchsurfers is interesting as most people contact you only a day or two prior to arriving. This seems strange for an over-planner like myself but I understand once you hit the road that you soon get used to it. Before deciding you canât live the expat lifestyle ask yourself why and give yourself 5 reasons why you canât do it. The barriers may not be as real as you think. -
Show Notes â An Uncluttered Life; Warren and Betsy Talbot
One of the first steps in any journey to become an expat is getting rid of the clutter â be it physical or mental â that is part and parcel of any home and any life.
The first step on this journey is having clarity in what you want and what you need in order to achieve it, then eliminating the surplus that sucks your time and energy; be it items, issues or relationships.
Today via livestream Blab we speak with Warren and Betsy Talbot of www.anunclutteredlife.com about their journey towards an uncluttered life from their former stressed corporate lifestyles, how to focus on what you should eliminate from your life and the simple steps to saying no that can release you from the guilt that others might put upon you (or you upon yourself)
If youâre seeking more clarity and less clutter in your life I urge you to check out their Clarity Clinic program at http://clarityclinic.anunclutteredlife.com/ref/12/
If youâd like to join our live stream interviews where you can ask questions via your keyboard check out our page at https://blab.im/theexpatchat and follow us for updates on future livestream interviews.
What I learned from Warren and Betsy:
Uncluttering your life doesnât have to mean minimalism. Each personâs definition is different and if having a big house is still part of your plans donât feel you need to give up on it. Warren doesnât have a mobile â this is part of their definition but doesnât have to be yours. Do what works for you. Happiness is not about adding more to your life but taking things away. We all have habits we have created, many of which donât serve us but we still do them. Even taking little steps can be a good start. Change the way you go to work for example. Question everything you do, everything you spend and everyone you deal with and whether they are there from habit or there on merit.I love their way of saying No! Donât say âsureâ if someone asks a favor until you know what you are getting yourself into. Be clear in saying no but add âthis timeâ after it so youâre not completely closing the door â and offer an alternative solution that works for you and still helps keep the other party happy
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Shawna Sharee was first inspired to live a wandering lifestyle when she read the book Eat, Pray, Love. Like many she dreamed of travel but thought she needed a lot of money to do it.
It wasnât until she joined an online program for woman entrepreneurs that she discovered there were others living the life she wanted â and it was the motivation to change her own life. Despite a pay raise that threatened to tempt her away from her dream she set herself the task of ending a toxic relationship and visiting the world. Starting with no plan in mind (and still largely flying by the seat of her pants) she has journeyed through France and the Middle East to her current location of Chiang Mai Thailand where she has embraced the true digital lifestyle of the area.
We caught up with Shawna to discuss the impact the people she surrounded herself with have had on her decision and how positive thinking has allowed her to overcome any hurdles she encounters
You can follow her blog at www.shawnasharee.com and get her travel tips and hints at www.curioushappyfree.com
What I learned from this interview:
I loved Shawnaâs saying that smiling is a universal language. Like many others we have spoken with she has been delighted by the kindness of strangers and itâs a timely reminder that everyone is an individual with a desire to be liked. Skyscanner is a favorite booking site for Shawna and we love it too. It gives you the flexibility to choose the cheapest flights to any location and on any date that most other sites donât offer. You donât need to commit long term to a place until youâve tried it. Short term accommodation through AirBNB or Couchsurfing can be had and, although short term rentals can be dearer it will often give you the lay of the land before you commit Shawna is a great lesson in surrounding yourself with positive influences. She draws on so many mentors and coaches to provide her with the strength and belief to follow her dreams and itâs true that your journey is directly related to who you spend the most time with. She is a great believer in things working out so far they have! -
Katya Sarmientoâs time in college certainly gave her a well-rounded education. She embarked on a number of options including air traffic control before realizing a life of travel and entrepreneurship was her true passion. She dropped out of college, quit her part-time job and started her own online business intent on building her future.
Through online contacts and Facebook groups she built relationships and helped others. In return they offered her a place to stay when she visited. She soon realized that the sharing world of digital entrepreneurs not only provided her with knowledge and friendship but new places to call home.
She now spends most of her time traversing America attending events and hooking up with her digital buddies. Her accommodation is largely free and she gets to experience new locations like a local.
We interviewed Katya back home in Miami over the holidays where we discussed her decision to leave traditional education, what life is like as a âdigital homelessâ and how we need to learn to accept the generosity of others or risk depriving them of the feelings of helping a fellow human.
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You might like the idea of an RV holiday for a couple of weeks â but how about living permanently in a van? For Drew and Brittany Neumann the decision to quit their L.A. apartment for a new life on the road was an easy one. Their adventure so far has taken them all over the U.S.A in the last 12 months and with their recent wedding behind them the adventurous couple are now heading for a new van life in the Europe.
We caught up with them in Florida making last minute wedding plans ahead of their next adventure and discovered their lifestyle, how van life has given them freedom without much of the everyday costs of living and how to find great places to camp for little or no money.
You can follow their journey, catch up with their social media channels and find out more about Brittanyâs book Heartfully Healed at their website www.mrandmrsadventure.com
What I learned from Drew and Brittany:
Set your goals before you start. Like Kyle Brady and Olivia Gould these guys set some goals and timeframes around what they wanted which made it easier and clearer to reach their objective.As Brittany likes to say when one door closes another one opens. Their original plans of teaching English in South East Asia were modified by the opportunity to borrow a family members van and do some touring. A new opportunity was born and vanning became their new preferred alternative.Putting yourself out there creates chances in so many ways. Their chance meeting with friends of John Lee Dumas led to an invite to an interview on his podcast show, one of the largest on the internet (which will be airing soon) and the opportunity to lift their blog to a whole new level. Their chance meeting with a Canadian musician has led to him joining their wedding to perform a unique twist on their wedding song. These things donât happen by chance!Vanning is the ultimate relationship test. It might not suit everybody but can be a great way to find out how your relationship copes with confined spaces. - Näytä enemmän
