Raising Independent Women: Lessons from Kekoa and Madeline Anderson

19 août · Dads With Daughters

00:24:48

Fatherhood is a multifaceted journey laden with challenges, joys, fears, and triumphs. On the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome a special duo—Kekoa Anderson and his daughter, Madeline Anderson author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads & Their Daughters. Their insightful conversation unveils the essence of father-daughter relationships, the intricacies of raising daughters, and the profound impact of intentional parenting.

The Initial Excitement and Overwhelming Responsibility

When asked about the first moment he realized he was going to be a father to a daughter, Kekoa Anderson recalled it as an overwhelmingly positive time. He highlighted the sudden surge of responsibility that came with the birth of his daughter. This initial moment of excitement quickly paved the way for a lifelong journey of learning and adaptation.

Kekoa described fatherhood as a process of evolving fears and challenges. From protecting an innocent little girl to dealing with the complexities of adolescence, each stage brought new hurdles. However, the underlying theme remained the same: the importance of being present and proactive in his daughters' lives.

Developing Unique Relationships

One of the key points discussed in the podcast was the necessity of building unique relationships with each child. Kekoa emphasized the importance of recognizing each daughter’s individuality. He talked about creating bonds through shared interests like work and golf, which allowed him to engage with each daughter uniquely. Madeline fondly recounted her memories of being included in her father's work and the significant role golf played in their relationship.

Guiding Through Challenges and Building Confidence

Madeline also shared an insightful story that illustrated how her father's confidence in her abilities played a crucial role in shaping her self-esteem. At just 16, Kekoa entrusted her with attending a pre-proposal meeting, a task that seemed daunting at first but ultimately empowering. This experience, among many others, instilled in Madeline a sense of confidence and independence that she carries with her into adulthood.

Kekoa explained his approach to parenting as one that focuses on guiding his daughters to the answers rather than giving them directly. This method built their confidence and equipped them with problem-solving skills essential for their future endeavors.

Cherishing the Journey

One of the most compelling parts of the conversation was the mutual respect and admiration between Kekoa and Madeline. Madeline expressed her awe at her father's thoughtful and supportive nature. She highlighted how the realization of her unique father-daughter relationship dawned on her during college when she noticed the absence of such bonds in her peers' lives.

Kekoa, in turn, shared how reading Madeline's book “Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters” was a reflective experience for him, reminding him of the many special moments they shared and the lessons they both learned.

Advice for Fathers

The episode concluded with the "Fatherhood 5," where both guests shared their insights and advice. Madeline stressed the importance of showing up and understanding your daughter. Knowing her passions, love language, and personality can significantly enhance the father-daughter relationship. Kekoa added the wisdom of enjoying the journey and not rushing through the moments. He likened it to the gentle pace necessary in a game of golf, emphasizing the importance of taking your time and appreciating each step of the way.

The conversation with Kekoa and Madeline Anderson on the “Dads with Daughters” podcast encapsulates the essence of fatherhood. It’s an ever-evolving journey that requires patience, understanding, and the willingness to grow alongside your children. Kekoa’s stories and Madeline’s reflections offer valuable lessons for all fathers striving to build strong, supportive, and empowering relationships with their daughters. As Dr. Christopher Lewis often reiterates, fatherhood is a journey for life—a journey best traveled with love, patience, and an open heart.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being on this journey with you. We have an opportunity every week to be able to to to work through this journey that you're on with your daughter. And every week, I love being able to be on this journey. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I have the opportunity to be able to learn and grow just like you are from the guests that we have on the show because it is a constant journey that we are all on. No matter if you have infants or if you have college age or if you have kids that are grown and flown out of the house and living their own life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]:
No matter what it is, you're still gonna be growing as a father, And your relationship with your daughters are going to change over that time. So it's important. It's important to keep learning, important to stay open to learning. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have gone through this journey in different ways. We have dads, we have daughters, we have lots of people with lots of different resources. And this week we got 2 great guests with us. I am always excited when I get to have a father and a daughter on. And this week, we do have that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]:
We have father Kekoa Anderson, and daughter, Madeline Anderson, with us today. And Madeline and I got introduced because Madeline recently wrote a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we'll talk a little bit about that and this. And I think we may even have this into a 2 parter. So we'll talk more in-depth about the book as well as what she learned. But today, we're gonna be talking a lot about their relationship and what led Madeleine to writing this book as well. So I'm really excited to have them on. Kikoa, Madeleine, thanks so much for being here today.

Kekoa Anderson [00:01:56]:
Thank you very much.

Madeline Anderson [00:01:57]:
Thank you for having us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time, Kikoa, and I'm gonna have you start here today. So I wanna go back to that first moment, that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter, what was going through your head?

Kekoa Anderson [00:02:11]:
Exciting times years ago. So, you know, going back to the time in my life, it was a great time in life. Just having been married for a number of years and dating my wife for some time. You know, that was the height of everything where life was all in front of me. So when that came, that was just kind of the first step of having a child. And my wife and I both wanted to be surprised, so we didn't know the sex of Madeleine at the time. So it was, you know, one of those things. And that day was just kind of life changing when all of a sudden this responsibility little package popped out and it was like really overwhelming, extremely positive way.

Kekoa Anderson [00:02:47]:
Reflecting back on that time was interest growing up and being a civil engineer and structural engineer and all the mechanics that are associated with that and testing everything, this was something where you could have a baby and walk out of the hospital and they just basically say, like, good luck. And there's no test, there's no form. It was an interesting time at that birth. So being ready for it, it's like, no, I was not ready for it. Nobody is. You just hear the stories from everybody. And so leaving that out, that was certainly a very exciting time. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh, I got a lot of work to do.

Kekoa Anderson [00:03:20]:
What's my plan and what's my path forward?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:22]:
You know, I talk to a lot of dads that talk about that moment when you're walking out of the hospital and they're they're especially if it's a first child, but also a your first daughter of this sense of heaviness that sets on you and the weight of being a father, but also of being a father to a daughter. And that there's some fear that goes along with that too. What would you say is was your biggest fear in raising a daughter?

Kekoa Anderson [00:03:45]:
It's almost like the from the little age, the fragileness and safety issue and kind of being there for him and, and the responsibility of like, of taking care of that life at that little time. It was, you know, that was the frightening part where, you know, it wasn't necessarily frightening, but it was just something that kind of came up on top. And then as you go through that, then those things change from protecting a helpless innocent little girl to then seeing her interact with certain situations, everything from preschool to kindergarten, where they had little discuss and there's little issues, which are easy solves at that time to when, you know, you move up into the junior high, high school range, and, you know, they start dating different guys, you know, then it becomes there's another kind of sense of where's the manual for this? And how do I interact with them and protect them guide them at the same time, give them the freedom to learn and choose and not be overwhelming. So you know, that very dynamic and changing all the way through it. So So now that you're interviewing me with an older daughter having gone through that, maybe I didn't answer the specific area. But, you know, that's kind of the from the start to where we were today, maybe in the summary.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:50]:
And, Madeline, when you hear that, what goes through

Madeline Anderson [00:04:52]:
your head? I'm just sitting here in awe. I mean, I know we've talked so much about our relationship and I interviewed him throughout the whole girl dad process, but I feel like every time I hear how he thinks and what's going through his head, it just reminds me of how many thoughts there are, how thoughtful he is, and just how incredible of a dad he is. But I think, yeah, as far as the fears and everything, I'm sitting here kind of imagining myself going through that with my own kids one day as well. And recognizing that, yeah, there's not just one big fear. I think you answered that really well, dad. It's it really evolves throughout time and changes depending on the age and the time of life and what's kinda going around them at the time. So I'm sure a lot of dads out there can relate to that as well.

Kekoa Anderson [00:05:37]:
Yeah. And it's it wasn't really so much fear. It was probably kind of the wrong word. It was just kind of a when I reflect back on it, it wasn't the number of fearful steps. It was just the situations came up. You weren't in fear waiting for it to happen. It just happened and you had to react. So it's like, how do you react when reactions are necessary?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:55]:
And I'll say it. I mean, and fear doesn't end. There are going to be things in life even when your child is out of the house and they are living their own life, that you can still be fearful or you can still have concerns. And but you have to temper those concerns and understand that your child is an adult. And how do you deal with that now, Kikoa, as you see Certainly

Kekoa Anderson [00:06:17]:
Certainly no fear of that, but there's, like, the worries and stuff. As I know, I feel very confident in her abilities to manage and take care of herself even from the safety issues to the work related elements to the financial side. Those, you know, at this level, it's nice. It's that's certainly a comfortable area where you can kinda boost control with that element instead of have to worry about it. But when challenges come up, certainly, you're there to go through those fears collectively and communicate them throughout. I still, as she's taken a trip to some area, I'm giving her extra fatherly advice on don't go to these parts and stay away from this or avoid that. And she probably doesn't wanna hear that. And she already knows anyway.

Kekoa Anderson [00:07:01]:
But it's also it's good just to throw those things out there. So those little bullet points are in her head. Head. I always do that, maybe overdo that too, which maybe is a negative, but, you know, it's my role. I have to do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]:
You're always gonna be a dad. That does not stop. No matter what and how old your child is, you'll still be a father and you're still gonna be engaged in many different ways. Now, every parent and then child are able to develop unique relationships, and there's things that really define that for themselves. Especially if you have multiple kids, you have to have those unique relationships with multiple kids. But when you have that relationship with your daughter, you're going to be developing it in your own way. Madeleine, for you, as you think about the relationship that you have with your dad and how that's evolved over the years, what's been some of the favorite things that you and your dad share together that you've appreciated most as you have gone through this relationship?

Madeline Anderson [00:07:51]:
Yeah. I would say to come to mind first. There's plenty of similarities and things that we bond over, but I would say the first one would be work. I was brought to my dad's work on the weekends when I was a kid, really enjoyed those moments. And he's always made me feel really included in his role and his job. And so I always understood when he was working, what he was doing, and it never felt like he was taking time away from me and my sisters. It felt like, oh, he's working. He's motivated.

Madeline Anderson [00:08:21]:
He's someone who we should be inspired by. So I always looked up to him in that sense. And then as I grew, I would always call him for work advice or business advice and we love bouncing ideas off one another or brainstorming things for work. So it's something that could be dry, but it's actually really fun for both of us, I think. And we have really great conversations around work and drive and what's next and game planning and goal setting and all of those kinds of things. And then number 2 would be golf. And that was something that my dad introduced to me as a young girl by just taking me to the course with him when he played with his friends. And at the time I didn't play, I just would sit there and count the bunnies and watch the wildlife and just enjoy myself in the cart.

Madeline Anderson [00:09:06]:
And finally, when I was old enough to maybe swing a club, I got a little snoopy set. It was a driver and a putter and one iron. And that was really fun for me because I felt included in the sport. And now, you know, he could take me with his friends and I could hit every now and then, and it made me feel like I was a part of the team. And then fast forward to high school, I tried out for the high school team and made that. And so I played throughout high school and he was always there guiding me. He would show up to my matches and had some fun little like one liners like roll it and hold it. And I'm forgetting some of the others, but there was some good life lessons.

Kekoa Anderson [00:09:39]:
From another.

Madeline Anderson [00:09:40]:
Yeah. Well, there's just some good life lessons in golf because it takes a lot of patience and we have to think about every stroke matters. Drive for show, putt for dough. That was another one you said. And it's just every stroke matters. You can't take what just happened in the past and apply it to the future. You have to take every single hit individually. And so having him there throughout that chapter was amazing.

Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]:
And now as an adult, I love going home and playing golf with my dad or trying to find a new course to play out with him. So that's been a really fun bonding experience that we still get to enjoy as adults and both work and golf, I suppose, that started when I was a young girl.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:20]:
And what about you, Kikoa? What were some of the things that you appreciated most in that building of the relationship and the things that you shared together?

Kekoa Anderson [00:10:27]:
That really makes my life takes me to that extra level. Like, if I didn't have a daughter or didn't have that area, like, how my life would be different. And definitely with 3 daughters, there was a lot of different uniqueness with each one and what we did. But specifically, I think some of the successes that really made my life more expanding was to include her in those things. With the work like one she talked about, you know, we've done a lot of different projects together. We kind of create the projects to work together on. And, you know, at a little age for her visiting the office and coming in and coloring and drawing on plan sets, you know, as an engineer and like developing bridges, we had all kinds of big sheets of paper. So that was a canvas to colour on, which was fun.

Kekoa Anderson [00:11:10]:
But at the same time, she got to kind of see, you know, what was all engaged. And there was a lot of neat things from the computers to the printers to even the old drafting elements that was kind of unique, you know, from the work and I think that helped guide her in some of the areas that she liked. But, you know, golf outside activity is an excellent sport to play with all 3 of my daughters and even my wife. It's just being out in nature and walking. Like I said, in the early age, it wasn't about her trying to outdrive her sister, that type of thing. It was like riding in the cart. You know, they wanted to drive the car, play with the bunnies, go to the lake and fish out golf balls or things more so. But then over time, it kind of grew.

Kekoa Anderson [00:11:49]:
So that walk together was really, you have time for conversation, Your daughter actually beats you on poles. So then you have the competition that's, I might drive longer, but she can putt better. So all of a sudden there's these equalizers that so having the competition and you're both trying your hardest is unique, you know, compared to some other sports. So, you know, I think we all enjoyed that time together. But even just the trips and things that we took and having the conversations is really what to understand who everybody is and how they're different and being able to engage in that. You just gotta make time to do that. So the more we did it, the better. And when there's times when we got caught up with other things, it's kind of rebalancing yourself so that you have time for those activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:32]:
You know, one of the questions that I guess that I would ask as a father of multiple daughters, as I said, you have to build those unique relationships. How did you find yourself parenting, fathering each of your daughters in unique ways to be able to build those unique relationships with each of them, as they were all growing?

Kekoa Anderson [00:12:49]:
Yeah. That's a tough one. I mean, that kind of first had a lot of activity. So it was like, here's kind of the spread. So as an engineer, I'm looking at economy of scale. So I want the golf clubs to pass down. So either one's gonna play golf. You know, the ski boots, it's like, hey, Malins went to Meredith, Meredith went to Ella.

Kekoa Anderson [00:13:04]:
And they I kept having 3 girls was awesome from a standpoint of once you kind of have all those upfront costs on the first, you can spread it down. But I think what we did was we were kind of well rounded and did a lot of different activities. So whether it was surfing, skiing, golfing, tennis, soccer, softball, pickleball, there was enough where we did a lot of sports, weren't necessarily experts in 1, but enjoyed the time together. So everybody kind of fell into their place and got to be themselves, you know, through that portfolio of a lot of different activities. Instead, you know, some fathers, maybe it's all soft ball and they only do softball and others might just be soccer and there's club and hockey now. And, you know, so everything's so focused and those coaches want you just to be like all this one sport. And they're always pushing for that for their team and their success. But again, watching the 3, maybe we wanted to make sure that they could go on the ski trip together.

Kekoa Anderson [00:13:58]:
And just because there was, you know, some club soccer team event that they would get in trouble for missing, it was kinda like we had to take that sacrifice so that our family could be together. So we didn't let, you know, one thing dominate, and we kept the portfolio open for the 3 to kinda fall into what worked

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]:
best for them. Now, Madeleine, people can easily hear from you that you have been able you've been bothered in a good way in in regards to helping you to become a independent individual person that is out there living your life, doing good things, and really making a life for yourself ahead of you. And I'll say your parents had a say in that. They helped you in that journey, and you helped yourself in somewhat in that journey too. But I guess as you think back to the things that your father did, the things that he did to be able to help you to become the person that you are today, what were some of the things that really stand out to you that he did for you that really allowed for you to become the woman that you are today?

Madeline Anderson [00:14:58]:
The influence is certainly there. I think there's a couple of stories that come to mind, but I really liked what he said about the multiple sports. And I think that kind of mentality of, like, you can do whatever, find your passions, you know, it wasn't forced upon us, but we ended up like, I really enjoyed soccer and golf and my little sister, the littlest one, she found her passion in art. And I think throughout all of us kind of finding our own lane, obviously both my parents, my dad specifically has been so supportive and once once we kind of define what that lane is, he's really good about offering support and advice and kind of guiding us through that journey. But I think another thing is just that belief in me and my sisters and our capabilities. And one story that comes to mind is when I was 16, I just got my driver's license and my dad woke me up and he was like, Madeline, I'm double booked for a meeting. I'm I'm gonna need you to fill in for me. I was like, What do you mean? And he said, it's a pre proposal meeting. It's no big deal. You're gonna go there. You've got this. You just need to meet with everyone, give them your business cards, But first you need to understand if they're a landscape architect or an engineer. If they're an engineer politely, and the conversation move on, go to the next person, hopefully they're a landscape architect, then you give them your business card. And so I went to this pre proposal meeting. I was the youngest person by probably 30 years and one of the only women.

Madeline Anderson [00:16:20]:
And I had enough call, like probably too much confidence. And I just walked around and I was like, hi, would chat with somebody, found out they're a landscape architect, and then I would give them my business card. And then afterwards when I came home, even I was like, great job. Okay. Now follow-up with them. And I was like, what? So he taught me, he guided me through that whole process, but in doing so he gave me so much confidence in my abilities and put me in an uncomfortable situation, but told me that I was going to be great and could do it. And I think throughout that process, I learned how to be confident in my work and I'm sure that's just one example, but there's been so many throughout, especially high school and college where he's really just been there for me and, has guided me to feel confident about what I'm doing. So I I think that that's really translated into my adulthood and kind of how I do what I do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:09]:
Thank you, Coop. Were there any other things that you intentionally tried to do with your daughters to be able to instill that in them, whether they accepted it or not?

Kekoa Anderson [00:17:19]:
Well, definitely, yeah. I mean, the whole point of challenging them to build their confidence is not giving them the answer to the question, but a number of questions to get to the answer. And through that path of finding those was part of that success of building the confidence. I think that was one area. You know, always look at a way to bait them into thinking through the process. And for example, if you go into that pre proposal meeting, I'm an engineer. We do the bridges. So we were looking we didn't need to meet them.

Kekoa Anderson [00:17:47]:
They're our competitors. We wanted to look at the ones that we could partner with. So her, you know, and it was low hanging fruit. If she messed up, it wasn't gonna change our outcome, but it was just a benefit. There wasn't the pressure of her having her having to fail. It was just giving her a chance to succeed. I mean, that step of kind of seeing if she could figure out a way to figure out who's the engineer, who's a landscape architect, because we wanted those landscape architects on our team. And if she messed up and actually got an engineer, we could've worked through that issue.

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:14]:
So, again, it was setting them up with a challenge and let them get their hands dirty and figure it out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:19]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where we ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into typically, it's the dad, but today, we're gonna be doing both of you. And so first and foremost, Madeline, in one word, what is fatherhood?

Madeline Anderson [00:18:34]:
I wanna say either guidance or support.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:36]:
Kekoa.?

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:37]:
Yeah. One word. That's a tough one. It's just kinda like it's life for me. It's like, hey. That's I'm a father. So that's a tough one. But it's definitely that walk.

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:45]:
It makes everything fatherhood is who I am. It's awesome. Love it. I can't imagine not being it and not having that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]:
Now, Madeleine, when was the time that you felt that your dad finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Madeline Anderson [00:18:57]:
I feel like the the finally is throwing me off because I think I grew up just with the understanding that he's a great dad to daughters. I don't know that there was ever a moment that it hit me. Oh, well, you know what? Actually, I will say when I went to college, that's when I really realized how amazing my dad is because I realized how rare that relationship is. And I might've taken it for granted, to be honest. And when I realized that a lot of the women around me did not have great relationships with their dads and they couldn't believe how close me and my dad are, that really shook me. And so, yeah, that would be probably the moment that I realized he has always been a great dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:34]:
and Kekoa?

Kekoa Anderson [00:19:35]:
Yeah. I mean, I think the success of being a father is is it's never over. It's, like, endless. So it's you're only as good as your last success. But some of the things where you know, I saw, you know, pivotal points and like, certainly like graduation and leaving the house. And interesting enough, like Malin writing this book, it was like because a lot of people don't get to talk about it. So then when I first was reading the drafts of that, it was like, you know, goodness, obviously, the things that I had forgotten about a number of things that we had done when she was young and those type of things and really getting her perspective. So if, I mean, if daughters made a list of things that they really appreciated and the dads got to see that, that's awesome.

Kekoa Anderson [00:20:14]:
And, you know, so that was kind of, you know, success by her writing that and me getting to reflect on it. You know, that was, you know, great job, Mandy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]:
Thank you. And, Kikoa, as you think about fatherhood, who inspires you to be a better dad?

Kekoa Anderson [00:20:27]:
Yeah. I mean, that's a tough one too. I I think that my style is I watch and listen a number of people, and whenever I see a good idea or lesson learned, I I take that for myself. So, you know, certainly my father and my wife's father, they were great examples and a lot of family friends. So I kinda used that whole portfolio and sold all the great ideas for myself and step myself up based on what I saw and learned from them. So, but definitely, you know, my own father and my father-in-law were a big inspiration throughout the whole time as they were active with Madeline and the other daughters as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:03]:
Now, both of you have given a number of pieces of advice today, things that any dad could think about. As we finish up today, Madeline, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Madeline Anderson [00:21:15]:
I would say show up for her. And I think the best way to do that is by knowing who she is. So take the time to really understand your daughter, her passions, the way that she thinks, maybe her love language, and then use that information to show up for her the way that she needs because that's gonna look different for every daughter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:33]:
Thank you, Koa.

Kekoa Anderson [00:21:34]:
Yeah. I think make the most of it and kind of, you get to reap all the benefits of it. I think that using golf is kind of one of the discussion items. There was a gentleman told me once, he said, you know, swing slow and accept the extra distance, which I always love that one, but that that's the same type of thing here with the advice for the dad. It's like there's a whole bunch of different moments and don't race to get to one end. Just enjoy the different parts of it and and kinda use that and take that time to engage.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:02]:
Well, I truly appreciate both of you sharing this today. And and I know, Madeleine, we're gonna have you on another episode to talk more about the book. We didn't go go really into the book today. We're gonna tease that out for the next episode that we're going to have with you to be able to delve even deeper into this learning of talking to all of these different fathers and not only kind of taking the the experience that you had with your own dad, but but going even deeper than that and talking to many other fathers about their own experiences. So I really appreciate you both sharing your journey and for sharing that with other dads, and I wish you both the best.

Kekoa Anderson [00:22:40]:
Thank you very much.

Madeline Anderson [00:22:41]:
Thank you, Christopher. Really appreciate you having us on today.

Kekoa Anderson [00:22:44]:
Indeed. Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:46]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:35]:
We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

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Brent Dowlen recounts the heart-stopping moment of holding his first daughter for the first time. He admits that he, like many fathers, was overwhelmed with joy and a touch of terror. "It's real now. This little life is dependent on me," he shares, capturing the duality of excitement and responsibility that comes with fatherhood. He never knew the gender of his children until birth, emphasizing that his main hope was simply for a healthy child.

Fears and Aspirations

Despite his extensive background in youth ministry, Brent was not immune to the fears that accompany fatherhood. His primary concern was setting an exemplary standard, knowing that his daughters would one day seek partners who reflect his character. This realization spurred a significant personal transformation. Brent openly discusses the fears of not living up to the high bar he set and the journey he has undergone to become the best version of himself.
Embracing Transparency
Owning Mistakes and Building Trust

Brent emphasizes transparency and honesty with his children. He candidly shares stories of his past mistakes and life experiences, adapting the depth of these dialogues to his daughters' developmental stages. This approach, he believes, nurtures trust and resilience in his daughters. "Kids will cling to transparency," Brent says. By owning up to his mistakes and maintaining honesty, he sets a robust foundation of trust and respect in his family.

Handling Pain Together

Brent's parenting style includes teaching his daughters practical skills to navigate physical and emotional pains. He recounts holding his daughter during her shots, teaching her to breathe through the pain—an approach he values highly. This practice not only builds resilience but also demonstrates his unwavering support and presence during difficult moments.
The Dynamics of Different Personalities
Unique Bonds with Each Child

Recognizing and responding to the unique personalities of his daughters is another core aspect of Brent's parenting philosophy. His older daughter, who shares his passion for activities, bonds with him through early morning walks and fishing trips. On the other hand, his younger daughter cherishes snuggles and quiet chats. Brent's ability to adapt to their distinct needs strengthens his relationship with each child. "Part of me going for walks in the morning has to do with me trying to stay somewhat healthy. Part of it is I wouldn't trade that time for anything," says Brent, highlighting the precious one-on-one times.
The Fallible Man: A Journey to Better Self
Inspiration Behind the Podcast

Driven by a desire to impact lives positively, Brent launched "The Fallible Man" podcast in 2020. Initially rooted in his background in ministry, his motivation evolved as he sought ways to mentor and guide men, especially those without positive male role models. The podcast strives to redefine masculinity, focusing on self-improvement and purposeful living rather than physical attributes.

Major Takeaways for Men

Reflecting on over 300 episodes, Brent's key takeaway is the critical need for men to discover their unique purpose. "All men were born for a purpose. You inherently have worth because you're a person," he notes. Living in alignment with this purpose, accompanied by humility, paves the way for personal growth and clarity in life's decisions. Brent asserts true masculinity lies in purpose, mission, and authenticity, rather than stereotypical physical traits.
Fatherhood Insights and Advice
Living for Priorities

The podcast episode wraps up with Brent sharing a piece of sage advice: "20 years from now, your boss won't care about how many hours you worked. Your children will never ever ever forget that they were your priority." This encapsulates the essence of Brent's parenting philosophy—being present and making your children feel valued above all else is a lasting legacy of fatherhood.

For those keen to learn more about Brent Dowlen and dive deeper into his insights, visit falliblemanpodcast.com. Brent's extensive work aims to help men navigate their journey of self-improvement, ultimately making a positive impact on their families and communities.

TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript made by CASTMAGIC)

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to Dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, you and I have an opportunity to be able to talk, to walk this path that we're walking to be able to raise our daughters into those strong, independent women that we want them to be. And I love that we're able to have these conversations because each of us is on our own journey. However, we don't have to do this alone. And it's so important that we surround ourselves with other people with different experiences that can share those experiences with each other. And then we can learn from them. So showing up today is part of the battle.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]:
You need to show up. You gotta show up for your kids, but you also gotta show up for yourself and you have to be willing to learn because none of us have the perfect playbook when it comes to raising our kids. We have to be open to hearing, listening, and learning from other dads because you know what? They probably have some things they can share. And that's important. It's really important that we're able to learn and grow from each other in that way. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different dads from with different experiences that are able to share those experiences with you so that you can add some new tools to your own toolbox. And today we've got another great guest with us today. Brent Dowlen of The Fallible Man podcast is with us today, and I'm really excited to be able to have Brent with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]:
Brent is a father of 2 daughters, and I'm really excited to get to know him a little bit more. Let you get to know him a little bit more and learn a little more about his own fatherhood journey. Brent, thanks so much for being here today.

Brent Dowlen [00:01:57]:
Chris, thanks for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. I don't get to talk about being a daddy, a daughter, daddy very often.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]:
Well, I'm excited to have you on. And what I wanna do is I wanna turn the clock back in time again. And I know you've got 2 daughters, so I'm gonna go all the way back. You said you have a 10 year old and a 12 year old. So I want to go back. Maybe let's say it's 13 years, might be 12 and a half years. But I want to go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Brent Dowlen [00:02:21]:
Well, Chris, I didn't actually know I was gonna have a daughter until she was born. My wife and I went the old fashioned route with both our children, had no idea what we were having because I determined a long time ago that I was just hoping for a healthy kid. So many dads find out right off the bat there's something wrong with their kid, and and that's such a hard reality. So my wife had on the side, and we were just glad if our kid was healthy, then we had already won, and it didn't really matter what it was. So but the doctor put my daughter in my arms for the first time. I did the full tilt thing. I was in the delivery room, and I cut the umbilical cord. And, man, I wish I don't know that there are words for that moment when they put your first child in your arms.

Brent Dowlen [00:03:01]:
We were a little terrified. My daughter was 3 and a half weeks early, and she was very small. And right off the bat, like, I'm a fairly big guy. I'm 6 foot. I've lifted weights most of my life. And so I'm I'm a fairly husky, big fella. And I was so terrified when they put this beautiful little thing in my hands, and she wasn't the length of my forearm. And I was just, like, looking at this little thing going, oh, wow.

Brent Dowlen [00:03:25]:
It's real now. This little life is dependent on me, and I'm terrified and thrilled all at the same time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:31]:
So talk to me about that fear because I've talked to lots of dads and a lot of dads say they have fear. Not only fear of just being a father, but especially when it came to being a father of a daughter, sometimes there's fear that is different than having a son or in just becoming a father in general. What would you say has been your biggest fear in raising your daughters?

Brent Dowlen [00:03:55]:
That I could live up to setting the bar high enough. From the moment I first looked at my oldest, Abby, I thought I've gotta get it together, man. Because so I have a background in working with kids and youth ministry, particularly in church. To youth minister, I grew up in the church working with children's groups. I was I taught children's bible church and all that stuff growing up. And from the time I was probably in junior high, I started working with younger kids. And it's interesting working with other people's kids, but then all of a sudden, this is a real moment because you've seen mistakes other parents have made. Right? And everybody thinks they have a clue until right? Everybody has an opinion about parenting until you have your own children.

Brent Dowlen [00:04:35]:
And then you're like, wow. What a jerk I was. But I had this dawning fear. I was like, how can I possibly become enough, fast enough? Because I knew that my daughters are gonna find a guy just like me. And that terrifies me because I was not a great guy my whole life. And so immediately this fear of how can I live up to setting the bar high enough that one day my daughter's gonna bring home a guy that's not a total dirtbag? Because I know, like, I was not the prize to bring home for some dads. I'm I'm sure I made some dads a little bit grayer, a little bit older. So that was the big fear.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]:
Talk to me about that because you went through a transition for yourself. You talked about the fact that you were not always the prize to bring home, that you weren't the model man for yourself and for others, let's say. At some point, your daughters may find that out. And have you thought about that? And what are you going to say to your daughters about who you were versus who you are now?

Brent Dowlen [00:05:40]:
You know, Chris, actually, this conversation, I've started really early with my children. We have been very transparent with the way we raise our kids. Like, my my children, I have scars all over my body. Like, I have I have found every way to hurt myself along the way. Right? So I have all these scars all over my body. I I lived very fast paced, lots of accidents, lots of mistakes, lots of injuries to prove it over the years. And so my daughters love to hear the stories about the scars. Right? They'll pick a random scar.

Brent Dowlen [00:06:07]:
They don't remember the story from. Or and so I've been very upfront the whole time when my daughter's gone. Yeah. I was stupid. I I made some horrible choices. This was one of those dumb things where God smiled on me and I lived through it regardless of how dumb it was at the moment. And so I've tried to be, of course, age appropriate. Right? We haven't gone into some of the dirtbag choices I've made along the way.

Brent Dowlen [00:06:31]:
But as it has become more age appropriate, I'm very open to talking to my children about mistakes I've made and about choices I made along my life. And I'm very quick to own up to this was a bad choice. Like, I was in a bad place and making really bad choices. I got into drugs and alcohol for a while and made some poor choices there. And so I've been very forthright about that because one of the things I did take in from being a youth minister into being a dad was kids will cling to transparency. You you can't outlive everything you've ever done. And so many people lie to kids throughout their whole life that you don't have to be perfect. But if you can be honest, if your kids can see that you are honest with them and that you don't pretend to have all the answers, that you're not perfect, that you make mistakes, I'm quick to apologize for things, then there's that that they cling to you because they know if nothing else in your life and their lives, you're real.

Brent Dowlen [00:07:32]:
I'm the one who gets to hold my children during shots and stuff like that. I have their whole life. I remember going to get shots from my oldest and she said, daddy, is it gonna hurt? I said, yeah, baby, it's gonna hurt, but it's only gonna hurt for a minute. And I'm right here with you and we're gonna breathe through it like you and I have practiced because I was already teaching her how to breathe through pain before that. I've always been very quick because I have racked up the injuries to teach them this is this is how we get through it. We breathe deep. We stay calm. We focus on our breathing.

Brent Dowlen [00:08:00]:
And so I held her arms against her chest and it hurt for a second. And then within a couple of breaths, it was gone. Right? But there was no, oh, oh, it's just a little, you know, none of that nonsense. Just this is who we are. And it's been it's been effective for me so far.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:18]:
You know, you talked about that fear that you had at the very beginning. And in raising your daughters and raising kids is not always easy. There's going to be ups and downs and they're gonna throw your curve balls along the way and you're gonna have to learn and kind of be able to pivot as you move along. What's been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter?

Brent Dowlen [00:08:43]:
I have a very logic based outlook on life and approach to things. I I won't say I'm closed off emotionally, but I have lived through some really dark spots in my life over the years. And so softening up from time to time because I don't want to teach them not to deal with their emotions, but it's also hard sometimes for me to realize, wait, we're processing an emotion now. I need to let this happen. I need to let them feel that and not try and make it okay right away. And sometimes I'm bad at recognizing those things because I deal with a lot of emotional stuff at a very, just logical ones and zeros. My brain is very quick to go. Okay.

Brent Dowlen [00:09:28]:
I'm experiencing and feeling this is a reaction to something. Is it gonna help me right now? Is it not gonna help me right now? If it's not gonna help me right now, I shut it down very quickly until there's a better time to deal with it. I still will go back and deal with that, but I look at it from a very exploded diagram view. I start analyzing it immediately and breaking down what's going on, and what I need to do to adjust instead of feeling it and experiencing it. I tend to analyze through it and process things that way. And so with daughters, they're gonna feel things. Your children have very different personalities. My 12 year old, she's like me, she wants to carry the weight of the world on her shoulders.

Brent Dowlen [00:10:06]:
And so learning to understand when she's processing something, as opposed to my newly 10 year old, who she's very emotions are on the sleeve. Right? So learning to recognize their emotional needs and responses has been probably one of the bigger pain points for me because it's very easy for me to go and it's not a, I'm a guy thing. I've always been that way. Like, I was a klutzy kid. I had a lot of sinus issues. And so my depth perception was skewed when I was congested. And so I had already had stitches multiple times by the time I was 6. Like, I've been beating myself up for a long time.

Brent Dowlen [00:10:45]:
My head looks like a topographical map. And so I learned very early to sort the fear and the emotion out of situations. Sometimes just for the sake of survival. I had to deal with a couple moments of if I lose it now, if I can't stay focused and clear, I'm gonna die before I can get to help. And so I've been this way for a very long time, and it's very different with daughters because, yep, you're gonna experience your emotions and their emotions and the emotions they inflict on everybody else.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:14]:
You know, you talked about the fact that kids are different, and they have different personalities. And when you add more than one kid to the mix, you gotta deal with it. And you've already talked about the fact that one of your kids wears her emotion on her sleeves, the other one wears it on their shoulders. And you have to be able to show up for both types of kids, both personalities. You have to build those unique relationships with each and try to find that common ground. Talk to me about that. How have you been able to build that those unique bonds with each of your kids, even though they're very different personalities, very different people, and you have to treat them differently in that way?

Brent Dowlen [00:11:56]:
That's honestly one of the fun parts, I think, about being a dad, girl dad. So my oldest, we process things. She processes things much closer to the way I do. So in learning to deal with her and and her emotional needs, I found she wants to get involved with things. Right. So we go for walks. Like she gets up with me at 4, 4:30 in the morning and we go walk 2 miles on a regular basis. And that is how she connects with me.

Brent Dowlen [00:12:25]:
And really that one on one time she wants to connect and walk, but not be, it's our own doing. My wife was a tomboy. And so both of us would actually tend to go to the male characteristic of dealing with emotions and communicating and that's side by side as opposed to face to face. And so Abby is much more likely to talk to me while we're out walking or she likes to fish. I hate fishing. I suck at fishing, but I have learned to go fishing because my 12 year old loves to go fishing. So we go fishing regularly. I got all the good fishing gear.

Brent Dowlen [00:12:58]:
My brother and I took him camping when they were a couple years younger, and they had such a great time. He's a big mountain guy. Like, he's mister mountain kinda thing. So he took him fishing and she's been fishing ever since. And we got back from that trip and I went, okay. And I went to Walmart and I found a nice older gentleman on the fishing aisle. And I said, I don't know anything about fishing, but my daughter likes it and I wanna be able to take her. So what do I need to know? And he had a great time teaching me what I need to know to take her fishing.

Brent Dowlen [00:13:25]:
It's side by side. It's while we're fishing. It's while we're walking. That's how she wants to process. And she does better. Like, she has a better outlook. She stays more positive. She processes things more if I keep her doing things like that.

Brent Dowlen [00:13:38]:
So part of me going for walks in the morning has to do with me trying to stay somewhat healthy. Part of it is I wouldn't trade that time for anything Cause that is solid gold time. The youngest one, she wants to cuddle still. At 10, she is very her safe place and both of them to this day at 10 and 12. Like I had both of them, one on each side of me last night, just wrapped under my arms on the couch because daddy is still the safe place. I'm loving that part of being a dad that they're still at 10 and 12, that's where they wanna be. When they're tired, when they're exhausted, they wanna be right up next to me. But my 10 year old, she wants to be much more snuggly when she's processing stuff.

Brent Dowlen [00:14:15]:
She needs the quiet. She needs the face to face. She just wants to be held and listened to. She went with me to run an errand the other day and talked. We drove an hour. The closest Home Depot is like 45 minutes away from me. So she talked all the way there and all the way back and told me about these books she's reading. And I loved listening to her talk about it because as she's talking about those books, she's talking about things she read in those books that she wants to understand, that she's identifying with.

Brent Dowlen [00:14:47]:
And so there, I hear about it with her, but then it's afterwards in the face to face moments, in the quiet moments when it's just us that she wants to dig into that stuff. So I feel like winning because my kids wanna talk to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:00]:
I love that. And it changes as they get older, but it's so important when you have those opportunities to take advantage of them, especially as they're young. But even as they get older, if they're willing to give you the time, you take it. Because as they get older, they're gonna pull away a little bit more. And if you've built those strong relationships now, it's what's going to pave the way for the future.

Brent Dowlen [00:15:23]:
I'm actually really excited about the future. Like, everybody's like, just wait till they're teens. I spent 20 years of my life working with teens. Like, that's my forte. It was this this when they're young and can't communicate, that drove me nuts as dad. Like, that was the hardest part about being a dad was when they're too little to tell you what's hurting or what's making them feel bad or what's like, I was losing my mind. I punched a hole in the wall one day because it's like, oh, right. I felt so powerless, but I'm looking forward to the teen years just because it's like, I understand that age group and that it's gonna be exciting.

Brent Dowlen [00:15:57]:
My oldest is gonna make me old really quickly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:59]:
I tell people that the gray that you see in my hair is not because I'm old. It's because I have daughters. So I don't know that that's really the case, but I can joke about. So one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is you've got a great resource out there that you've developed over the last few years and called The Fallible Man and The Fallible Man podcast. And congratulations, you're just going to be putting out, or actually by the time that this goes out, you're going to have passed that 300th episode, which is amazing. So I guess I wanna go back in time and tell me the story of The Fallible Man because podcasting is not easy. It takes time. It takes a lot of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:38]:
It takes a lot of effort. And you gotta be pretty passionate about the topic to be able to keep it going for so long. So talk to me about The Fallible Man. What made you decide that you wanted to jump into this and put all this blood, sweat, and tears into it for as long as you have to put all this content and information out there for the masses?

Brent Dowlen [00:16:58]:
You know, it's funny because I told this story many times. And there are still days I question my own story on this. It's like, is that really what was driving me at the time? So The Powell Man, we started in 2020. And it really started with I had the sense of urgency that I needed to start to impact people. I told you I have a background in ministry, and I left ministry several years ago now about 18. And but I grew up around it. My dad was a preacher. And so it been ingrained my whole life.

Brent Dowlen [00:17:30]:
I feel like I need to serve people and impact people in a positive way. It's why I got into youth ministry. And we had several female friends. We used to have about 14 people over every single week, 14 to 16, One night a week, all our friends would come up, just show up at our house. And we'd cook the main meal, and people would bring stuff. We kept pot pot pota kinda meal because it got too expensive because we were going out to a restaurant. It's this nice Italian place once a week, every week. And it just got too expensive for everybody, so we moved to my house.

Brent Dowlen [00:17:58]:
But I would listen to our female friends get frustrated about their boyfriends or their husbands. And I started becoming the translator for them. They'd be like, oh, he's doing this. I was like, that's not what's actually happening. You understand that. Right? They're like, no. And so I would start translating for these guys who usually weren't there and didn't really know how to translate what they were doing or what was actually happening to this young woman. And I actually had people prodding me to write a book for women about men.

Brent Dowlen [00:18:28]:
And I was like and this was before the term mansplaining became popular, but it's like all the warning lights went off. I'm like, nope. Nope. That's just gonna end badly. Right? So the years kept going and we had kids. And I started thinking about it because I have I have 7 nieces or no. 9. Nine nieces.

Brent Dowlen [00:18:45]:
Between the two sides of the family, I have 9 nieces. There's a lot of girls in my life. And I have some that are my on my side of the family because I'm the baby. My oldest brother's daughters are now all in their twenties. One of them is almost 30, and I've watched them grow up. Right? And I watch all these teenage girls I worked with, and I'm watching my younger nieces now. I'm looking at this like, how do I make an impact for them? And then my daughters came along. And I was like, how do I make an impact that can truly do something for them? And like a lot of dads, when I became a dad, I kinda started on this journey of self improvement because I was terrified I wasn't going to be able to set a good enough example for my kids.

Brent Dowlen [00:19:25]:
And so I started down this journey for myself and eventually it led me to it was like, well, that's what I can do, is I can help other men who are somewhere on that journey. And so part of it was this need to impact people in a positive way. And then how do I solve this other problem of how do I help young men, especially in a time where there are more and more men growing out without positive male role models in the home? For whatever reasons, no no judgments on that's not that's not my place. For whatever reason, there are a lot of young men growing up without positive male role models in the home. And I was on a forum just the other day on Reddit and I wanted to cry reading this post. And it's like, we have no one to show us how to be men because y'all have can't agree on what that even is at this point. What masculinity is supposed to look like. And I'm reading is like this was maybe 2 days ago.

Brent Dowlen [00:20:16]:
I was reading this forum. And it's like, this is why I'm doing this. Because I can't help everyone. But how can I reach the most people to encourage men who are on that journey to grow into their best selves, whether they had a good influence or they had a bad influence, there becomes time when you decide to do it for yourself? So how do I help those guys? And so I started my show and then I started having guests on to fill in the gaps that I couldn't necessarily talk about, but it started with my journey trying to become the best version of me. So that's my daughter c. And then, how can I help other men make that journey, so that one of these days, there are positive male role models influencing the next generation, the next generation because that's gonna affect my daughters and their children?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:05]:
So you've put out there 300 episodes. You've met a lot of people. And I'm sure that along the way, you've learned a lot, not only about yourself, but about what you were just talking about in regards to what men need right now. And some of that's subjective. I'm gonna be very honest about that because there's many people that have probably many different thoughts on what masculinity should be, ought to be, could be, etcetera. Talk to me about your biggest takeaways. Looking back at 300 episodes, looking back at 300 interviews, 300 conversations, and what's been the biggest takeaways for you that you think that all men need to know to be able to connect better either with themselves, with other men, and to be that better version of themselves that they want to be.

Brent Dowlen [00:21:58]:
You know, I wanted to be a place that's why I called it the fallible man. I wanted to be upfront that I was on a journey. I didn't ever wanna come across as the guy who had all the answers because that's an immediate turn off. Right? That that that's all crap. No one no one has all the answers. No one has it perfect. I'm very quick to share my failings with my audience because that's an incredibly important part of the journey for any of us. And I've wrestled with and reformed on this question so many times, Chris.

Brent Dowlen [00:22:26]:
Like, I am constantly at war with this question in my head, adjusting what I think is crucial, what I think is the ultimate, how do I get that down to really bite sized pieces for people. And I think where I'm at right now is this. All men were born for a purpose. You inherently have worth because you're you're a person. You're born, therefore, you have worth. But you are born for a purpose, and your mission is to find a way to that purpose. Because once men are very mission oriented and once you find what that purpose is for you, it clarifies your other choices. It gives you direction.

Brent Dowlen [00:23:06]:
It gives you meaning. And once you start to live in alignment with that, everything else just seems easier. But we all have a unique purpose. Right? Because we all are unique individuals with our own back stories, our own experiences in lives, the personalities, the people who have influenced us, make us all very unique in the way we deal with things, and the way we process emotions and thoughts and feelings. And so you uniquely have something to offer the world that is a great value. And for men, finding that purpose and trying to pull everything else into alignment with them, well, that is probably one of the most critical things they can do because once you find that, everything else gets easier. You gain so much clarity on the direction you wanna go with things. It makes decisions easier because it either falls in line with that or it doesn't.

Brent Dowlen [00:23:53]:
And men need a sense of direction and purpose to really flourish. I've had so many people, like, I go out of my way. You will not come to my podcast and find a bunch of guys thumping their chest and grunting and saying men's men men. Right? I'm a fairly, quote, unquote, stereotypically masculine guy. I ride a motorcycle. I shoot guns. I was in military briefly. I lift weights.

Brent Dowlen [00:24:17]:
I have a beard. I usually have a mohawk. I mean, I'm none of that is masculinity. None of it. That is not it. And so I rail against that on my podcast. I am interested in men who actually want to be men. And that looks there are a lot of common attributes, but it has nothing to do with the physicality.

Brent Dowlen [00:24:34]:
Yes. If you have a certain physicality, some people will take you more seriously. But I've had the privilege of knowing some elite elite soldiers over the years. I intermingled with a lot of special forces guys over the years. I had a navy seal who was cross training into another program in a different branch of military, and he was nothing to look at. Right? He wasn't a big guy. He wasn't all jacked. He didn't have this huge physical presence from his physicality, but he had a presence that was undeniable because of who he was and the confidence in which he carried himself.

Brent Dowlen [00:25:07]:
And that came from he had a purpose and a mission and a direction and he lived in alignment with that. It's who he was. So I think for a lot of men, just finding that purpose, and then I may be one of the first guys you'll hear say it is learning humility. If you find your purpose and start living in alignment with that and can embrace humility, because it takes strength to be humble. Humility is not a weakness. Humility comes from a place of strength. But if you can have the humility to go, I have room to grow. I don't have all the answers.

Brent Dowlen [00:25:38]:
Right. Then you can grow. Then you can live in alignment with that purpose and those beliefs and those ideals that you value. And you can live your best life because you have to get into that growth mindset of I'm here. I didn't hate who I was when I became a dad, but I looked at who I was and I went, what is the bar I wanna set for my children? I want them to see me make mistakes. I want them to see me own those mistakes. I want them to see me struggle and grow because I want them to know the journey is worthwhile. And so, yeah, finding your purpose as a man, I think is critical because it makes everything clearer.

Brent Dowlen [00:26:12]:
And then embracing that humility because not because you're weak, but because you're strong enough to go, I can be better. I can do more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:19]:
And what are some of the first steps that you would recommend that someone take to find that purpose for themselves?

Brent Dowlen [00:26:26]:
Hindsight is a huge blessing. I think it's actually a lot easier for guys who have a few more years than some younger guys. I think that's why it takes so long for some of us to find our purpose and direction because you need that hindsight. But you have to have enough hindsight. You have to have that 50,000 foot view sometimes. For a long time, I thought I was supposed to go into ministry, and I ran from it. Before I finally went into ministry, I ran from, I have my own Jonah story. But years later, looking back with that 50,000 foot view, it wasn't necessarily ministry I needed to be in.

Brent Dowlen [00:26:56]:
That was just the way I understood to express that need, that purpose for me. I have a gift in helping other people grow and rise, mentoring other people. And I see that because I look back over I started working when I was 16 years old. 44 now. I've had a wide array of jobs because I could never stay anywhere because I was bored with them. But everywhere I've ever gone, I always end up being a trainer or a teacher in the group. My last big company I worked for, I was the lead trainer for our entire division. Part of my job wasn't what I got to do full time, but it was part of my job.

Brent Dowlen [00:27:27]:
I wrote all of the documentation. I did all the onboarding. I trained all the new people. I went and set up new sites. The job I had before that, oh, I ended up training people. The job I had before that, totally different industry. I got all the new people with me because they trusted me to train them. And so as I started looking back, it's like, okay, no matter what I do, and I've also been a personal trainer, no matter what I do, it always comes back to working with people to grow in an area where they wanna grow.

Brent Dowlen [00:27:55]:
And so, and I can look back over years years years of my life now at 44 and go, wow. That's what it's been every place I've been. It doesn't matter what I do. That's where I end up. And it's like, okay. So maybe my talents and gifts and purpose all align with teaching people or helping people grow. Right? Because as a personal trainer, I love to be in a personal trainer because I was so excited for every half step forward for any of my clients. I relished in them hitting goals and overcoming things that were trying to get past.

Brent Dowlen [00:28:25]:
I specialized in working with people who are usually working around an injury or recovering from an injury, and I loved helping them gain that back. Right? Just to see them thrive. I trained so many people in the IT industry to watch them take better jobs, better positions after I trained them. And I was happy for all of them. I was never mad when they left because I had to train somebody else. I was thrilled that they got a better position for better pay. And so I think age gives you a lot of benefit when you have that. Now when you're younger in your twenties, you're still trying to figure out a lot of things.

Brent Dowlen [00:28:55]:
You're still experiencing life. You don't have that experience to look back over with that 50,000 foot view. But I would encourage people to look at it and go, okay. This is what I like to do, but what is it I truly love about doing that? Not so much, yeah, I'd like to do this or I like to do that. Yeah. But really dig deep in that. My as my mentor, Dai, told me, what's the why beneath the why beneath the why? Six times. That was the minimal rule.

Brent Dowlen [00:29:24]:
Six times. Why? Okay? Why? Right? Six times deep minimal with him. And in your twenties, that's what you really gotta do is, okay, I really love doing this. Like, I'm passionate about doing this, but why am I passionate about doing that? What aspect of this am I really truly passionate about? What really gets me out of bed? And then you can start to see once you get to that aspect, you can kinda zoom out a little bit and start to see what about that is it moving me? Okay. When I was younger, did that move me? Would I be interested in this because I would get to do that? It's not quite the experience take, but I it's probably the easiest direction to go in your younger years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:01]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Brent Dowlen [00:30:08]:
Oh, I don't know, but we'll see.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:09]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Brent Dowlen [00:30:11]:
Blessing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:12]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded in being a father to a daughter?

Brent Dowlen [00:30:18]:
I'll let you know when I get there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:19]:
If I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?

Brent Dowlen [00:30:23]:
Present.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:23]:
And 10 years from now, what do you want them to say?

Brent Dowlen [00:30:25]:
That we never had any question that dad was always there for us, that we were a priority.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:30]:
Now, who inspires you to be a better dad?

Brent Dowlen [00:30:33]:
My father. Because my dad passed. It's almost been 3 years now. But to the day he died, I never once questioned. My father loved me, that I was a priority to him, that he always had my back.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:45]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today. A lot of things that you've learned along the way. Not only learned in your own journey, but learned from other men and other people. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Brent Dowlen [00:30:56]:
20 years from now, your boss won't care about how many hours you worked. Your children will never ever ever forget that they were your priority.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:05]:
Now if people want to find out more about you, more about the fallible man, where should they go?

Brent Dowlen [00:31:09]:
The easiest place to go would be the falliblemanpodcast.com. You can get on our mailing list. You can check out the podcast via the YouTube video, your favorite audio player. I've got 7 links out to your favorite audio as well as being embedded, and see what we're doing and what we're about, and if it's something you're interested in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:26]:
And we'll put links in the notes today so that you can find that for yourself and check it out and and hear some of the 300 plus episodes that Brent has already put out there and that he'll keep putting out there to help other men be better men. Brent, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for what you're doing to be able to engage men in these conversations, but also to engage in the process of being able to work on themselves to become those men that they wanna be. Thank you for being here. Thanks for what you're doing, and I wish you all the best.

Brent Dowlen [00:31:57]:
Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:58]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:57]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men, get out and beat the world to them. Be the best dad you can be. Be the best that you can be.
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Tailoring Parenting Approaches for Each Child with Travis Hawkley
23 sept.· Dads With Daughters
In a recent episode of Dads with Daughters, we delve into the multifaceted journey of fatherhood with guest Travis Hawkley, a father of three vibrant daughters aged 17, 13, and 9. The episode is a treasure trove of insights, real-life anecdotes, and practical advice for fathers striving to be the best dads they can be.

Embracing Each Child's Unique Needs

One of the central themes of the conversation is the importance of treating each child as an individual. Travis shares how his middle daughter faced anxiety around dance recitals. Despite her love for dancing, the pressure to perform became overwhelming. Instead of insisting she fit into a conventional dance class, Travis and his wife found a non-performing dance class that allowed their daughter to continue her passion without the stress of recitals. This decision underscores Travis's belief in accommodating each child's unique needs rather than imposing one-size-fits-all expectations.

Travis's approach to parenting is a thoughtful balance of supporting his daughters' independence while providing the guidance and resources they need to explore their interests. The key is to avoid making his daughters feel like they need to prioritize his feelings over their own, thereby fostering a sense of independence and self-driven choices.

The Power of Curiosity and Engagement

Travis advocates for a parenting style rooted in curiosity and engagement. He emphasizes the importance of initiating conversations and asking open-ended questions to understand each child's interests and aspirations. This approach not only strengthens the parent-child bond but also empowers children to express themselves freely.

Supporting their interests doesn’t have to be costly. Travis suggests starting with low-cost activities to gauge their passion. For example, his oldest daughter's interest in stagecraft was nurtured with encouragement and opportunities to explore theater, even without a clear career path in mind. The support allowed her to pursue her passion without fear of failure.

Travis shares that his most successful moments as a father are when his daughters approach him with difficult questions, showcasing their trust and openness. This trust is built through consistent engagement and letting children guide conversations, ensuring they feel heard and valued.

Overcoming Limiting Beliefs

A significant part of Travis's parenting philosophy is fostering a positive growth mindset. He underscores the importance of helping children overcome limiting beliefs—self-imposed barriers that can hinder their potential. Drawing from his own experience, Travis recalls how being praised for his test-taking skills became a limiting belief, leading him to put less effort into his studies. It was only through conscious effort that he deconstructed this belief to succeed academically later in life.

Travis applies these lessons to his children, particularly regarding their future aspirations. His oldest daughter, for instance, feels uncertain about her post-high school plans amidst societal pressure to have a clear career path. Travis reassures her by sharing his varied career experiences and emphasizes the importance of flexibility and openness to change. He encourages her to consider non-traditional career paths, like becoming an electrician while indulging her theater interests, highlighting the value of adaptability in today's world.

Inspiration and Influence

Travis draws inspiration from his daughters and their interactions, finding joy and motivation in their growth. His parenting style is also influenced by his parents—his mother encouraged exploration and trying new things, while his father, despite different interests, provided a model of support and care.

This blend of influences has shaped Travis's motto: "Love wastefully." He emphasizes that love is an inexhaustible resource and advocates for loving fully and unconditionally. This philosophy extends to self-love and maintaining a balance between work and personal fulfillment.

Conclusion

In his conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Travis Hawkley showcases a profound and nuanced approach to fatherhood. By treating each child as an individual, fostering curiosity, and helping them overcome limiting beliefs, Travis exemplifies the values of love and support that are crucial in raising strong, independent daughters. His journey reminds us that being present, engaged, and adaptable are key components of fatherhood. As Travis encourages, let's all strive to "love wastefully" and support our children's journeys without reservation.

TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created through CASTMAGIC)

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to walk on this journey with you because, you know, it is a journey. All of us are on a journey together in trying to raise our daughters. Whether you have a brand new newborn at home or you have college age kids, you're always going to be a father And you're always going to have to do what you can to continue to learn to grow and to be present, to be active and to be able to be there to help your kids to continue to become the people that they're becoming. And we can't do that alone. There are so many other dads that are out there that have walked this path prior to us, are walking side by side with us, and men don't always do a great job of talking to one another. That may not be a surprise to you, but it's true.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]:
And it's important for us to understand that we have resources in our own community and beyond that can help us to be even better dads. So that's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to help you to be that active dad that you wanna be, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox and to open up your mind to different ways of doing things because there's no one right way to father. You can do it in so many different ways, but you can learn from other dads too. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you along that journey. And today we got another great dad with us. Travis Hockley is with us today. And Travis is a father of 3 girls.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:
He has 3 girls that are 17, 13, and 9. So he's right in the thick of it and working to help his daughters to prepare them to be grown and flown. He's got one that's gonna graduate this year. So it is a definite process. And I'm really looking forward to talking with him today about his own journey and to share that journey with you as well. Travis, thanks so much for being here today.

Travis Hawkley [00:02:24]:
Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]:
It is my pleasure. I thank you for being here. And we always start our interviews with an opportunity to kind of turn the clock back in time. I love being able to do that. I said you have 3 girls and your oldest is 17. So I'm gonna go back. Maybe it's 18 years. Maybe it's 17 and a half years, you know, but I wanna know what was your first reaction? What was that first reaction that you had when you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter?

Travis Hawkley [00:02:52]:
You know, I I've listened to a few episodes of the podcast and have talked to a lot of other dads. And I've noticed that a lot of dads were pretty fearful, terrified, apprehensive about having a daughter. And, honestly, I didn't feel that. I think I probably would have felt more terrified had it been having a boy. And that comes from any number of things. But growing up, I didn't I guess I didn't ever, like, identify a whole lot with a lot of the, like, quote, unquote, stereotypical guy things. Wasn't a huge fan of sport. Didn't really like a lot of that stuff.

Travis Hawkley [00:03:25]:
I liked art. I liked music. I liked the things that are unfortunately labeled as stereotypically female. And so when we were starting to have kids and I found out I was having a girl, that to me just it felt right. It felt normal. It felt natural. I was like, alright. I I can do this.

Travis Hawkley [00:03:43]:
And as you mentioned, I have 3. And every time, you know, went through that process and found out I was having another girl, I was just excited. And then after we had our 3rd, someone said, well, are you gonna try for a 4th and see if you can get that boy? And I thought to myself and I'm like, okay. Well, statistically speaking, if we have another one, it's probably gonna be a girl too because that's just the way that that works in in a lot of cases. But I was like, you know, I know girls. I'm a good girl dad. I I know what I'm doing at this point in time. You know, if I were to have a boy, that would really kinda throw things off a little bit.

Travis Hawkley [00:04:16]:
You know, if if we were to have another one, which we didn't. But having a girl would probably be another great thing. So I didn't really feel that apprehension. I I loved it, and I've loved every minute of being a a girl dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:26]:
It's definitely a journey and definitely something you have to learn about. I relate to what you said in regards to growing up. I was much more on the music, the choir, the theater, the the things that were not the let's watch basketball, baseball, football, you know, being on the sports teams and things like that. And not to say that there's anything wrong with that, but Nope. That I think that I would have probably felt similar if I had had a son and being able to understand, okay, what do I have to do to be able to understand where they are going to be coming from? Because their journey may be different than mine. But at the same time, I guess I have to think about that as a father to a daughter too, because their journey is definitely different than mine. And I have to realize that and be open to that as well. Now you said that you didn't really feel fear when your children were born.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:20]:
As your kids have gotten older, as they've gone through the different phases and stages, and you have one that's getting ready to be in her last year of high school, and then you've got younger ones as well. What would you say has been your biggest fear throughout their lives that you've had to deal with?

Travis Hawkley [00:05:35]:
I think one of the biggest things that I have been fearful of really has less to do with them and more to do with me as a father of I didn't want to put expectations on my kids in such a way that would cause them to maybe count my feelings as more important than their own. I didn't want them to ever think, oh, if I don't do this, I'm gonna disappoint my dad. That was never something that I wanted them to feel. And I feel like my parents did a really good job of that as well. So that was you know, it wasn't something that that was I was trying to go against how I was raised. I feel like my parents did a great job, but I just I didn't want them to go through life thinking that what I thought was more important than what they wanted to do. So I think that's probably has been and still is my biggest fear.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:28]:
Now you have 3 daughters, all at very different ages, completely different parts of their life in how they relate to you, probably how they relate to each other. And once you bring more than one child in the mix, you have to deal with a lot of the connections and you have to be able to do what you can as a father to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your kids because each of your children are always going to be very different than one another. That being said, as you think about the journey that you've been on with your daughters, what have you had to do to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your daughters to be able to allow you to understand them better, but also allow for them to be able to connect better with you?

Travis Hawkley [00:07:15]:
Yeah. That's a fantastic question. And we definitely spread them out. I mean, they're all 4 years apart in school. So my oldest is currently in her will will be entering her senior year of high school, which means that my middle child is 13. She'll be entering her 8th grade year, and then my youngest will be entering her 4th grade year. So they are never in the same school at the same time, except for, like, 1 year in elementary school. So it really has been very different to get to know them and parent them because they aren't.

Travis Hawkley [00:07:46]:
They're not in a similar life position at all, which has been really interesting and fascinating. For each one of them, I mean, it has been really nice. It was really nice with my oldest, for example, because she was 4 by the time her sister was born. So I had a lot of time. And at that point in time, I was teaching and going to school. So I had a lot of extra time that I could spend with her. So she and I kind of, I mean, grew up together. We learned a lot from each other.

Travis Hawkley [00:08:13]:
We'd go to the library at any time that we wanted to. You know, all the things that we wanted to do, we just kinda did, which was nice. And she, personality wise, is a lot like her mom. And so she and I got along really well. When my second child came along, she was very much personality wise like me, and we did not mesh at all. And so it was really, really difficult to between the ages of maybe 25, we just butted heads constantly. And it was really, really rough. I really feared so I guess here's one thing I did fear.

Travis Hawkley [00:08:46]:
I really feared that she and I would never really be able to connect. And I knew deep down that that likely wasn't going to be the case, that we just kinda had to figure each other out. And I think where we finally did learn how to connect was once I kinda took away those expectations at the beginning. And I did have certain expectations on my kids even though I attempted not to. I expected her to act a certain way, and she wasn't gonna act that way. And that had nothing to do with parenting, had everything to do with just her innate personality. And once I figured out how to let that go and accept her personality and and accept her feelings and accept who she was, we were able to connect. And now she's probably the most like me, and she and I could connect perfectly well.

Travis Hawkley [00:09:34]:
So, yeah, there definitely have been challenges with each one to kinda get to know them. And I think for me, it's been finding their thing. So my oldest was, for example I mean, we're all readers just because I'm a reader, so reading's just always been a thing. But my oldest was really, like, a reader. She would just pour through books, and she and I connect in that way. My middle child, not as much of a reader, but she really likes movement and dance and things like that. So she and I have been able to connect through that. My youngest, she more likes movies and other things.

Travis Hawkley [00:10:10]:
So it's been a lot of spending time together to discover what each one of them likes and trying to make sure that I connect with them on that, but also just kind of being curious. I think for me, the the biggest thing as a dad is being curious about what it is that they are interested in at the moment and giving that my attention and helping them to figure out what they're interested in. And by doing that, I've been able to keep them interested, keep them coming to me. They feel like they can come to me with anything. They're not gonna get pushed away. My oldest was in 8th grade, so this is three and a half years ago now, probably. My oldest was trying to kinda figure out what she was gonna do in high school, you know, her courses for high school. She didn't know exactly what she wanted to do.

Travis Hawkley [00:10:54]:
And she came to me, and she's like, what if I did theater? And I was like, I I think that's fascinating. I think you'd be really good at that. And she's like, well, I don't wanna act. She's like, what if I did stagecraft? And I could tell that she was maybe a little bit apprehensive to go to her mom about it because her mom wanted her to do certain things. And when she came to me, and she brought it up and was really excited about it, I was like, well, let's let's look into it. Let's kinda figure it out. We love going to musicals, so being around with really amazing sets and that lifestyle, whatever, was something that we were into, and she has run with it. So now she runs the soundboard for all the musicals and the plays, and she's a stage manager.

Travis Hawkley [00:11:32]:
So she does all this really cool stuff, and she's starting to do a community. So something that she was just really kind of interested in, didn't really know, she and I were able to connect on and kind of turn that into something that might continue, might end up being a potential career path for her as well. So

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:48]:
Love that because there are so many different career paths that you can take, and sometimes you go down one pathway that can spark an interest, spark a light, and can open up a door for something completely different than you thought. And so I commend you for encouraging her in that way. And, you know, one of the things that I think that that really makes me think about is the fact that I think that many women today, and I've seen this in my own daughters, whether it be society or people around them, there have been things that make them feel that they're limited, that they have these limiting beliefs that hold them back from achieving their full potential. I said, I've seen this in my own daughters and we've had to have many conversations and and really trying to unpack that for ourselves. And I know in talking to you, you said you've had some similar things that you've been doing with your own daughters to be able to help them and to really make them think in different ways. I guess I'd be interested to better understand where did you start seeing that in your own daughters? And what did you have to start putting in place to try to unpack that for your daughters so that they were willing to not only hear you, but then be willing to act on what you were trying to instill in them?

Travis Hawkley [00:13:03]:
So I think in order to kind of unpack that, I've got to go back to my own childhood and look at all of the one of the things that has been pretty constant in my life, and I think in most of our lives, has changed. So when I was 12 years old, my family moved from Fort Worth, Texas to Boise, Idaho, and that was a huge change. And then when I was 18, I went and lived in Russia for a semester to teach English to little kids at a kindergarten in Russia as a kind of a volunteer experience. And I lived for a couple years in Spain, and then I went to school, and I moved around a lot. I became a teacher. I taught at the college level, ESL and Spanish at a college level mostly. And so I have gone through a lot of changes where I've had to confront a lot of my own limiting beliefs and kind of deconstruct those. Living outside of the country is a fantastic way to butt up against those things that you have that are gonna limit you.

Travis Hawkley [00:13:54]:
I remember multiple occasions when I lived in Russia. I was 18 years old. I didn't know anything, you know, about life in the real world. And there I was in all these situations where the things that I had grown up with, the beliefs that I had grown up with were being pushed back against by people who believed in a completely different way. And, you know, I found that I could go one of 2 ways. I could either fight back against them and try to hold on to the things that I thought were right, or I could examine those beliefs and figure out where they could change and how I could become different, how I could help make those beliefs work for me. And so I started regularly through all these insane life changes, examine these beliefs, and try and figure out where they come from, and why were they there, and how were they causing me to act in a certain way. And so I I started in my head, just as as you were talking about, and I started calling them limiting beliefs.

Travis Hawkley [00:14:49]:
And as I was teaching so I had one particular job where I worked at a career college in Tucson, Arizona. And my job was specifically to help people who were getting back into school. So most of them had been out of college for a while. They were coming back to school at 25, 30. I think the oldest student that I had was 63 who were coming back to a career college to try and do something different. Now a lot of these students had been not great students when they were in school before. They'd either had not finished high school, they never finished their diploma or GED, or had gotten their GED by the skin in their teeth, had been told by their teachers that they weren't good students, that they were never going to amount to anything. And they were coming back to school because they needed a way out.

Travis Hawkley [00:15:31]:
They needed to change their lives. And they saw education as being that way, that thing that was going to help them. And so the class that I taught focused on 3 different things. Academic study skills, number 1, super important. They wanted to make sure that they could actually do school. Also, career exploration skills. So we, you know, did resume writing and interview questions and that type of thing, which was really fun. But then the 3rd piece was mindset.

Travis Hawkley [00:15:55]:
It was looking at helping them figure out how to have a positive growth mindset moving forward. And that was where I really, really, really so at at that point in time, my oldest was 2, maybe 3 years old when I got that job. And so it was a really great time for me to have that job, that experience because it really helped me to flush out to see these people going through this experience of deconstructing actively, harshly these ideas that they had grown up with and had had since they were really young. And so it it taught me to be very cognizant of what I was putting on my kids. I didn't want them to have any beliefs that were going to stop them, that were going to limit them. I wanted them to grow up free of those things. And, you know, that's hard, and I'm idealistic for me to say, oh, I didn't want them to have any sort of beliefs that we're going to limit them. But I think depending on how you view any belief could be a bit a limiting belief.

Travis Hawkley [00:17:00]:
But I think what it really boils down to is helping them to be able to overcome, any belief that they find that might be getting in the way. One of the things and I and I always liked to share this one when it came to my teaching experience as well. When I was in 1st grade, I had a very little white haired grandmotherly type first grade teacher. Her name was missus Cox. She was fantastic. Both my my older brother and older sister had had her as well. So I was the 3rd of me and my siblings to have her. And she told me when I was in 1st grade that I was really, really good at taking tests and that I was gonna be really successful in school because I was really good at taking tests.

Travis Hawkley [00:17:36]:
Now that sounds like it's a wonderful thing, except that as I got older, and mostly into high school and college was where I really saw this, I felt like I was really good at taking tests and didn't need to study all that much because I was good at taking tests. And so it was really difficult. I mean, I did really well on tests, period. I mean, I I was great at taking tests, but I didn't put in the work to really make a lot of that knowledge last. So even something that seems like it's a positive can potentially limit you in certain ways. And once I figured that out, when I was in college, I was probably in my junior year of college. By the time I kinda figured that out, then I had to go through process of deconstructing that and figuring out how to go about doing the rest of my education without having that be a problem. So when it comes to my girls, I try to make sure that they know that any belief that they have, we can go about modifying it or changing it.

Travis Hawkley [00:18:31]:
Or we can figure out how to work within that belief if it's causing problems to what they wanna do. I'll give an example. My my 13 year old is a dancer. And probably maybe 4 years ago, she came to me, and she was having a hard time a lot with, like, recovery when it came to how she was able to do her dance practices and her workouts and things like that. She wanted to get better. And at that point in time, I had done a lot of diet and lifestyle changes. I've had kind of figured out some things, and I made some suggestions to her. And I said, you certainly don't have to do this, but you wanted to kind of adopt this lifestyle that I have.

Travis Hawkley [00:19:10]:
I feel like you might benefit from this. And she was like, well, I'll certainly give it a try even though it was different from the way the rest of the family ate, except for myself, of course, and was way different from the way most of her friends led their lives. And she was able to adopt that lifestyle and was able to make a lot of really interesting changes when it came to her her dance. She was able to recover lots faster. She was able to, you know, just get better by leaps and bounds. Where before, she was, you know, very incrementally getting better. Now she was exponentially getting better. And she's an amazing dancer now where had she had she not made those changes, you know, who knows? So it's interesting to look at, and not that she was eating bad before, but just for the lifestyle that she wanted, adopting a different belief system led her to be able to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:13]:
So that was your oldest that you were just talking about. And right?

Travis Hawkley [00:20:18]:
Middle child.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:18]:
Okay. So talk to me about what so that was your middle child that you were talking about. So what has been the the, what's been the reaction as you've had these conversations with your youngest and your oldest?

Travis Hawkley [00:20:37]:
So about that specifically or about, you know, just in in general about things that they like to do?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:44]:
About the limiting beliefs and and things that limit them and hold them back.

Travis Hawkley [00:20:48]:
Yeah. So my oldest, I think the thing that has been the most prevalent recently is, as you mentioned, she will be graduating from high school next year. And her biggest thing on her mind is what she's gonna do after. And she has had this problem for years, probably since she was in the 7th grade, where she felt like her friends all knew what they were gonna do. They all already had their life plan out. I'm gonna be a doctor. I'm gonna be a whatever. I'm gonna do this.

Travis Hawkley [00:21:13]:
And she had no idea. She did not know what she wanted to do, and that was really frustrating to her because she didn't have one thing that she found to be really, really interesting. And I told her that. I'm like, that's not a problem at all. But she saw it as one because society was telling her that she should know what she wanted to do when she grew up. We asked that question to kids all the time. What do you wanna be when you grow up? And she felt like she should know, and she did. And that was really, really hard.

Travis Hawkley [00:21:39]:
And I made sure to point out to her how many different things I had gone through. Yes. I was a teacher, but I taught so many different things. And I taught at a university. I taught at a community college. I taught at the career college. I wasn't when we when I moved back to Boise about 10 years ago, I wasn't able to find a job in education. I got a job as a sales guy at an IT company.

Travis Hawkley [00:21:59]:
I didn't know anything about sales. I didn't know anything about IT. And I got that job, and I was able to make it work. And I was interested, and I was curious. And so I have I walked her through all those different things that I've gone through in my life and said, you might choose one thing that you're gonna do in your college career, and that's gonna change anyway. Most people nowadays, at least, do not start out with one thing and stay doing that one thing for the rest of their life. And if they do, that's awesome. That's because they've been able to stick with it, be interested in it.

Travis Hawkley [00:22:28]:
That's something that is great for them. I'm like, but not everybody's like that. You get to figure out what you're like, and you get to figure out how you wanna proceed. And that's something that has been kind of interesting because her mom is very much set on her going the route of the traditional 4 year bachelor's degree education going through and and doing that process and getting a job that way. And my daughter doesn't want to. She has talked about becoming an electrician. And using that, coupled with the theater experience that she was talking about before, setting up sound systems, microphone systems she wants to continue to work at. She's currently volunteering at a small playhouse here, being a stage manager, doing sets, doing sound, and she's been able to find something that she feels she's going to be able to do for a while.

Travis Hawkley [00:23:17]:
And we've had conversations about what happens when that changes. What happens when she becomes interested in something else and doesn't wanna keep doing that? And I think in a lot of cases, most people get into that sort of situation and they feel stuck. How am I gonna change? How am I gonna do this? That sunk cost fallacy of being like, I've already put in this much time and effort. I can't switch. I can't do something different. And so that's kind of been a conversation a lot recently with my oldest. My youngest, you know, really hasn't hit a lot of those yet being only 9. But I think the one most recently, she followed in her just oldest sister, my middle child's footsteps, and went into dance.

Travis Hawkley [00:23:54]:
And she found herself getting kind of anxious about performing in dance recitals. And she didn't really know what it was when she was, like, 5 or 6 years old. She just kind of didn't think that she really liked being up in front of people, but she didn't really know what was going on. And just this last year, she came to us, and she said she's like, I wanna keep dancing. She's like, I just don't wanna keep performing. Can I do that? Is that okay? And, of course, that's okay. We just had to get her into the right dance class. We found dance classes that worked where she was able to do the dance classes and learn routines and learn skills, but she didn't have to perform in front of people.

Travis Hawkley [00:24:36]:
That's just not something that she is interested in doing where my 13 year old loves it, thrives on that. And so for my kids, it's that each one of them is so different. Lumping them all into one expectation and saying, well, because we want this for you or we want this for the other, you all have to do the same thing. That's ridiculous. I've been able to help each one of them in unique ways to kind of find their own way forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:02]:
Now as you think about other dads that are out there that are listening to this and want to start having these conversations with their own conversations with their own daughters. Is there advice that you might have for them in regards to how to start?

Travis Hawkley [00:25:14]:
I think being curious about your kids is one of the main ways. And especially if you notice your kids struggling in a certain way or trying to live up to some standard that they're not sure where it came from, be curious. Be engaged. Just start the conversation. You know? Hey. What are you interested in now? What is something that I don't know about you? What is something that you're interested in that, that I might be interested in? Teach me about something. Tell me about what's important to you. And I know that's hard.

Travis Hawkley [00:25:49]:
I mean, I I feel like I've done a good job from the beginning of keeping engaged with my girls. I've never really had to fight to keep their attention or to get their attention. But really that is born from I've always done this. I've always been interested. I've always been engaged. I'm a lifelong learner. I was a teacher, so I'm interested in everything. And so it was easy for me to kind of step in and say, well, what do you want to do? Let's explore that.

Travis Hawkley [00:26:13]:
And every time that my kids, within reason, every time that my kids wanted to try something, I was all for it. I was like, alright. Let's go. Let's do this. And I made sure that they knew if it was something that there was gonna be a lot of cost, I was like, let's find a low cost way to do this just in case it does stick. And at the moment that it sticks, we'll go all in. We can buy all the things. We can do all the whatever.

Travis Hawkley [00:26:33]:
But I wanna make sure that it's something that you're really interested in. Then when it is, great. Let's go. And so I think, again, just kind of boiling that down. Be engaged. Be curious. You've gotta spend time with your kids. You've gotta give them that time, and you've gotta let them take over and kinda steer those conversations.

Travis Hawkley [00:26:53]:
Having those expectations of, oh, my kids should be this way. My kids need to do this. That's gonna lead to your kids. In some cases, they're they're gonna thrive on that. They're gonna be okay. And in others, that's not gonna be who they are, and they're gonna have a hard time. But getting to know your kids, asking them open ended questions, and just, again, being curious, being engaged, I think is is probably the best advice I could give.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:15]:
We always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Travis Hawkley [00:27:22]:
I'm ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:22]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Travis Hawkley [00:27:24]:
Love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:25]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Travis Hawkley [00:27:28]:
I think it comes mostly from every time they come to me with a question that I know was difficult for them to approach with me. Knowing that they feel my love and openness to where they could come to me, I think that's when I feel the most successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:47]:
Now if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?

Travis Hawkley [00:27:50]:
I'm I'm sure all sorts of colorful words would come around. I'm I'm definitely not a normal person in a lot of ways. They would probably describe me as being funny and weird and being really energetic, and they would probably use the word engaged too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:06]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Travis Hawkley [00:28:08]:
I mean, my girls definitely inspire me to be a better dad. I mean, on a daily basis, when I'm playing with them, when I'm talking to them, I just I want to be the best type of dad that I can. My own dad was a huge influence on me. He was great. We didn't necessarily have the same interests. He was very much the sports is sports guy, loves to watch sports, and yet he still found ways to connect with me, which was fantastic. And so he definitely helped my mom. Another great example, not a dad, but she was an example of a great parent.

Travis Hawkley [00:28:41]:
She was interested. She loved to help me, you know, explore new things. She taught me how to cook when I was really young. She a lot of things that I find interesting kinda came from her.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:52]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, a lot of things that you've learned along the way with your 3 daughters. As you think about dads that are listening, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Travis Hawkley [00:29:04]:
For sure. I have a motto, and it's actually painted on my wall in my house in letters that are probably a foot and a half tall. And it's probably about, you know, 8 feet long. And it says love wastefully. And it comes from a guy named John Shelby Spong, and he talks about just loving in such a way that we just give everything, that we just love with everything that we have. And that has been you know, I only discovered that maybe, like, a year and a half ago, that freezing. But I noticed as I kinda look back on my life, I I really have tried to adopt that in a lot of ways, whether it comes to dealing with my kids, dealing with other people, dealing with myself. As a dad, I think it is really hard for me to love myself in a lot of ways because of the stresses of being a dad.

Travis Hawkley [00:29:55]:
It's hard to be a dad. You're worried not only about providing for your family. You're worried about, am I connecting with my kids? Am I being a good dad? Am I being a good husband? Am I being everything that I need to be a good provider? There's so much stress around being a dad. Loving yourself can be really, really tough. But giving yourself that love and that curiosity towards yourself too, finding the things that you want to do that you find to be interesting. For a really long time, I was just focused on providing a paycheck for my family, and that was solid. Every dad wants to be able to do that. It was harming my mental health in a lot of ways.

Travis Hawkley [00:30:33]:
And so I recently, within the last year, have started my own business as a life transition coach, helping people to do that, which is directly born from my experience as an educator, as a teacher. I'd already been doing that. And so taking that upon myself and realizing this was going to be not as lucrative right at the beginning, but was going to be more fulfilling has helped me to be a better provider still, has helped me to be a better dad, has helped me to be just a better person. So, anyway, tying that all back into the idea of love wastefully. It's not something that's in limited supply. We can love our kids with as much as we have. There's nothing you're not gonna run out. You're not gonna run out of love.

Travis Hawkley [00:31:15]:
Give it all and love them and and love everyone around you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:18]:
Great way to end the show today, and I really appreciate you being here. If people wanna find out more about you, where is the best place for them to go?

Travis Hawkley [00:31:24]:
So I am the only, to my knowledge, Travis Hockley in the world. So you can find me pretty easily. Google my name, and I should show up on Facebook and Instagram. I will have a website here in the not so distant future, but I don't have it yet. But those are probably the 2 best places to find me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:41]:
Well, Travis, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own journey, and I wish you all the best.

Travis Hawkley [00:31:46]:
Awesome. Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it. This has been great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:49]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:47]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, we make the meals, We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.
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Navigating Fatherhood: Thomas Batchelor on Balancing Work, Family, and Personal Growth
16 sept.· Dads With Daughters
Parenthood is often described as a roller coaster ride, filled with ups, downs, and unexpected turns. For many fathers, this journey involves a continual process of learning, growth, and adaptation. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we spoke with Thomas Batchelor, an operations and maintenance electrician for Shell Energy Australia and the father of two sons. The conversation touched on various aspects of fatherhood, from the initial challenges to the changing gender roles and the importance of self-care and support.

The Long Marathon: Early Challenges in Fatherhood

When Thomas Batchelor first discovered he was going to be a father, he approached the situation with confidence. However, reality quickly set in. "I thought I'd have it all under control," Batchelor reflected. "But it was far from the truth." Like many new parents, Thomas faced significant hurdles, including a newborn who had difficulty sleeping. The initial months were a humbling experience that forced him to adjust his expectations and learn on the go.

"I learned pretty quickly that it's not a sprint. It's going to be a marathon-type process," Batchelor said. "Settle in because the life that you knew before has changed, and you have to adjust to the new life that you've got now."

This early period was characterized by significant personal growth, teaching Batchelor to look inward and adopt a more grounded approach in both his personal life and in fatherhood.

Shifting Gender Roles and the Importance of Teamwork

Batchelor highlighted how traditional gender roles have shifted in contemporary parenting. He took a year off work to stay at home and support his wife’s career aspirations, showcasing the importance of teamwork in managing family responsibilities. Initially, he struggled to comprehend the "mental load" that his wife carried daily. This refers to the myriad of small, yet significant, tasks that ensure a household runs smoothly.

"About 2 or 3 months in, I thought I was doing a great job, but my wife said I needed to start thinking for myself now," Batchelor explained. It was a steep learning curve that took almost a year to fully grasp.

Understanding and acknowledging these unseen aspects of parental responsibility not only strengthened his relationship with his wife but also allowed him to contribute more effectively at home.

Building a Support Network

One of Batchelor's key points was the importance of seeking and having a support network. Fatherhood can be a lonely journey, often described as the "lone wolf syndrome." He strongly believes that vulnerability and asking for help are crucial for personal well-being. Batchelor participated in a retreat called the Good Blokes Society, which acted as an "adult rite of passage" and enabled him to share his struggles with like-minded men.

"Without that, that was the start of my journey. And then I sat with it, and it was really raw and tough for me to do, but I left there and continued to gain momentum."

His experience illustrates that community and mutual support are essential in navigating the complexities of fatherhood.

Self-Care and Sustainable Fatherhood

Adopting an effective self-care routine emerged as another critical piece of Batchelor’s journey. From regular exercise and a balanced diet to seeking professional psychological help, Batchelor emphasizes that self-care enables him to be a better father.

"I've got to make sure that I'm getting to bed at a decent time, eating a pretty good diet, exercising regularly, and speaking to a psychologist," he said. "If I do that, then I feel like I'm in the place where I need to be."

By managing his well-being, Batchelor ensures that he can fully engage with and support his family.

Thomas Batchelor's story is a resonant example of modern fatherhood's challenges and triumphs. His journey offers essential insights into the importance of adaptability, shifting gender roles, and self-care. Batchelor underscores that vulnerability and a strong support network are indispensable elements for any father striving to be the best they can be. As society continues to evolve, his experiences will undoubtedly inspire other dads to navigate their unique journeys with resilience and empathy.

For more on Thomas Batchelor’s journey and other inspiring stories, tune into the Dads with Daughters podcast. Fathers seeking support can also explore resources offered by Fathering Together.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Every week. I love being able to talk to you, to walk with you, to be here in solidarity, together, talking about fatherhood, working through the journey that we're both on in raising our kids. And I say it's a journey because it truly is a journey. It is a journey that each of us goes on every day and we are going to be learning something every day, learning something about ourselves, learning something about the, the person that we are, the person that we're becoming, but also learning about our kids, what they're becoming. And we then have to pivot. We have to adjust. We have to learn to be able to be the best dads that we wanna be.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:06]:
And that's important. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to be able to be that resource for you, to help you along that journey. And I'll be honest, as I've gone through this with you, I've learned so much from all of you, but I've also learned so much from all the guests that we've had on the show. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different dads that have had different experiences, that can share those experiences with you so that you can learn, you can grow, and you can be able to take things from their own experience, put it into your own toolbox, and help you along the way. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Thomas Batchelor is with us. And Thomas is a operations and maintenance electrician for Shell Energy Australia, but he's also, more importantly, a father of 2.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]:
We're going to be talking about his own journey in being a father to his sons, but also some of the things that he went through in this journey to be able to be present, be engaged, and be there for his sons as they were growing and also some of the things that he learned along the way. So I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share his journey with you. Thomas, thanks so much for being here today.

Thomas Batchelor [00:02:20]:
Thanks, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:21]:
It is my pleasure. I love being able to talk to different dads with different experiences. And first 1st and foremost, one of the things that I love being able to do in our conversations is turn the clock back in time and you've got 2 sons. So I want to go all the way back. Go back to that first moment when you found out that you were going to be a father to a son. What was going through your head?

Thomas Batchelor [00:02:40]:
I thought I'd have it all under control. I thought, yeah, I've got my head around this and my kid will fit into my life, but it was far from the truth. And I learned pretty quickly that it's not a sprint. It's going to be a marathon type process and settle in because the life that you knew before has changed and you have to adjust to the new life that you've got now. And I think I did struggle with that.

Christopher Lewis [00:03:04]:
So talk to me a little bit about that because as you said, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon and you have to kind of learn along the way. And you've got 2 sons now, so there's definite learning that goes on there from child 1 to child 2. So So what were some of the first things that you really had to learn for yourself that really helped you to start that journey, but also to be able to transcend those first moments of being, let's say, a little bit trepidatious, a little bit concerned, and be able to get into the groove of fatherhood for yourself.

Thomas Batchelor [00:03:37]:
Yeah. I think going into it, I probably thought I had a sense of arrogance that I was I was across it all, and I wasn't gonna be any different to any of the other parents who were, you know, I'm gonna do it on my terms. And that didn't happen. We had a child who didn't wanna sleep. He was a challenging baby. Didn't wanna sleep. It was a real challenge, and it's been very humbling. And I'd say that the man I've become today and continue to keep growing is because of the challenges of having, I think, a difficult child. I think it's really helped me to just become more grounded and look more inwardly. And I've had such growth because of the challenges. I'm happy for that.

Christopher Lewis [00:04:14]:
You know, all of us go through challenges in different ways. Some of it goes into the type of child that you have and the the things that they push you into, but then there are challenges at times when internally you have to fight your own demons of the way that you were raised into figuring out the way that you wanna raise your own children. So each of us fights those pressures and that connection and that dichotomy that happens when you become a parent. So talk to me about that challenge for yourself and what you had to do to to be able to transcend and move beyond the initial challenge. And let's say it is the nonsleeping. I remember that. I had a child just like that. You, especially after, you know, 6 months, a year of that happening, you're walking around like a zombie and you you don't know which end is up and it impacts your relationships.

Christopher Lewis [00:05:03]:
It impacts everything. So talk to me about going through that, but also transcending that to be able to push through it, but to be able to also learn from it to help you to be the dad that you wanted to be now.

Thomas Batchelor [00:05:16]:
So I sort of just got my head down really. I thought to myself, if I can try and do as much as I can so I would try and do as much as I could to try and support my wife with the wake ups so she could have a better day. I had Oscar at home as my oldest boy. And I just continued to keep putting my head down. But then I was also trying to mesh in this social life as well. So I thought I could still go out with my mates. I thought I could still go and do all these things that I wanted to do, but still be able to be this supportive husband and the father that I wanted to be and I couldn't do it all. And that became quite an overwhelming thing and I had to really I'm a people pleaser and I had to really make sure that I now I probably only just got to the grips in the last couple of years that, you know, you have to say no to things and you have to make sacrifices because you have to get your priorities straight.

Thomas Batchelor [00:06:06]:
And I did bottom out, I'd say about 3 years ago. So I just ran out of steam really and the kids would have never have known. I was just doing what I had to do to get through but I wasn't enjoying the process. I wasn't present. I was making sure that I was doing the things I had to do as a father, but I wasn't enjoying it. It just wasn't an enjoyable experience. And I bottomed out, and I started becoming involved in groups of of particularly men who I would who I went away with. It was almost like an adult rite of passage.

Thomas Batchelor [00:06:36]:
I would go away and I'll speak about some of the challenges, obviously, throughout the course of my life and then obviously how it's impacting me as a father now and just really unpacking that. Just having more people to talk to, you know, more people to speak to who are also going through different struggles and just getting it out there. And that really helped me to put things into perspective and and know that I'm not alone. I don't know if you've heard the term the lone wolf syndrome. So that was something I idea. I just got my head down and I would go to the beach at 5 AM in the morning in winter and and run on the beach. I really hammered exercise to a point where it was unhealthy. And just to try and feel something, to try and, you know, get up before the kids got up.

Thomas Batchelor [00:07:16]:
I just burnt out. I just couldn't do anymore. And I feel like there's just been different phases of my life where I've had to lean into certain things by slowing things down and then speeding things up at time to try and get to where I need to be. And I feel like I'm really there now. I'm in a really good spot now. I'm actually starting to enjoy my time with my boys. And I'm really grateful for that because, I mean, I don't know how long I could have gone on for. I mean, I didn't wanna get to when the kids were 10, 11, 12 and go far out the whole time.

Thomas Batchelor [00:07:44]:
I've just been a servant, you know, and I haven't enjoyed the process. This is more it's about being a parent. So I'm grateful for where I am now. And it's it's a lot of hard work, but grateful for where I am now. So

Christopher Lewis [00:07:55]:
let's rewind a little bit because this process that you went through and this journey that you were on, it sounds like a roller coaster in regards to the highs and the lows and what you were pushing yourself to try to accomplish, but you weren't accomplishing. So you've gotten to a point now where you feel like you're in a good spot, but you had to have gone through some healing in some aspect. You had to have gone through some aspect to challenge yourself, to push you in a different direction. What did you have to do to be able to get off of that roller coaster? What did you have to do to be able to get on this new path that you were on? Because there are going to be dads that are listening right now that are on that roller coaster. They hear they heard what you just said and said, I feel that way right now, but I don't know how to get off. I don't know how to start on this different journey.

Thomas Batchelor [00:08:47]:
I think just submitting to where you're at and then asking for help. I think asking for help is the biggest thing. So getting the right people around you who can support you. And if that's not your close circle of friends because you're not there yet, I wasn't there yet. So you think about the people that you went to school with, the people that you work with, your family, you might not feel comfortable going to these people. And I do think that comes back to an upbringing thing and I raise my kids now to speak about their emotions and if they're feeling a certain way we really unpack it. I don't feel that was ever there for me as a child. So I feel like my child's emotional intelligence was actually better or as good as mine as a person who was in their mid thirties.

Thomas Batchelor [00:09:30]:
My boy at the time was 5, and his emotional intelligence is is really good. He can tell me how he's he's feeling, and, I mean, I couldn't do that as an adult. So I think you have to put your ego aside. You have to really be vulnerable. Vulnerable is probably the biggest word. And then you have to lean into there's plenty of support groups out there. So I went on a retreat with a guy called Mike Dyson, and he ran a retreat called the Good Blokes Retreat. So it was a bunch of like minded men, and we went away for a weekend.

Thomas Batchelor [00:09:58]:
It was all facilitated, catered for. It was in a beautiful part of Western Australia down the south region, and it was winter, and we just had real conversations. So I just get tingles running through my body now speaking about it because without that, that was the start of my journey. And then I sat with it, and it was really raw and it was tough for me to do, but I left there and I'm like, you know what? It just continued to gain momentum. And from that point on then I leant into other circles. So I spoke to my work colleagues. I spoke to my family. I spoke to the guys I went to school with and played sport with.

Thomas Batchelor [00:10:35]:
And then from that point on it was all out there and I basically said I can't and don't want to do this all on my own. You know, I want to be able to have the support of my friends and family to enjoy this process as much as possible. And the more that I lean into vulnerability, the more I look at my wife and my kids and feel that connection and that love because it works. It simply works. Yes. I don't know really what more to add to that, but it's been a journey and I'm happy that I'm here now.

Christopher Lewis [00:11:03]:
Now you and I were connected through Sarah McConachay, who Sarah wrote a book that you were a part of, that you contributed a chapter to. And in that chapter, you talk about a number of the things that you've already talked about already. And I think one of the things that I found really interesting was you talked a little bit about the fact that you mentioned in what you wrote that following instructions and helping out wasn't enough to handle the mental load at home. Can you elaborate on what you meant by the mental load and how you came to understand its impact on you and on your family dynamics?

Thomas Batchelor [00:11:42]:
Yeah. So I'd probably just take it back a little bit. During probably my lowest time, it was sort of when COVID hit. My wife was really busy at work and she's always thinking 2 steps ahead. You know, what's for dinner tonight? What's for dinner tomorrow night? Putting on washing. Just constantly thinking, kids' birthday parties. There's constantly things that I feel like in my relationship that the mom and the working mom has to think about so many more things. I don't know whether it's a male default setting because evolution has brought us to this point.

Thomas Batchelor [00:12:11]:
I do think that men are probably having to do more outside of their comfort zone now than ever, and maybe that's an to sit with our evolution for a little bit so our kids can see it, and then we can then take on some of that more of that mental load of all the things that the women talk about. So COVID came along. It was really tough for me, but my wife obviously continued to work and continued to do the home stuff. And I would do the home stuff. Don't get me wrong. I would I would help out and do as much as I could. After COVID, we said, right. We need we need to sort of slow things down here.

Thomas Batchelor [00:12:41]:
So my wife took a year off of study break. She went back and and studied her master's. And then she said, look, I'm going to start applying for jobs. And if I land a job as a in an executive position, then, you know, maybe I'll wind back at work and I'll have the year off to adjust. And then from that point on, we'll assess it. And I felt like I was a lot more comfortable being at home with the pace of home than sort of going to work and then having to adjust back to the pace of home. So I said, alright. So my wife ended up landing this position at at a at her work or she she applied for this position and got it.

Thomas Batchelor [00:13:18]:
And then I asked my work if I could have 12 months off work, and and they said yes, which was which was amazing. And then it was a steep learning curve. So this is where the mental load comes in. So the 1st 2 or 3 months, I remember thinking I was going along okay. And I went out for dinner with my wife about 2 or 3 months in. I said, look, how am I going? And she sort of looked at me and she was a bit reluctant to give me an answer. And I sort of said, what do you mean? She said, look, I just need you to start thinking for yourself now. You need to start thinking about what needs to be done versus what I tell you that needs to be done.

Thomas Batchelor [00:13:51]:
And so obviously it was a bit of a shock, but looking back now, she was correct. And it really took the full year, I think by about the 9 month mark, where I was like really gaining some steam then. I was thinking about, again, it was not for dinner tonight but for the next night, putting a load of washing on, making sure that things are away, just small things. So that's when I think I really became a benefit at home is when I could actually start to remove some of the mental load that my wife had. And I do think there's a lot of other women out there who have similar experiences. But it's I don't think it's a I didn't do it on purpose, but I'm a base now compared to where I was a year ago in regards to how I go about things at home.

Christopher Lewis [00:14:36]:
So as you think back to that and you think at the future, so you were talking about gender roles and how those changed in that period of time for you and your family. So how have gender roles and expectations evolved for you in your parenting? And how did you and your wife navigate them beyond that period? And how do you navigate them now? And what advice would you give to other families that are trying to find that balance?

Thomas Batchelor [00:15:01]:
I've always been a big supporter of my wife. So I've been with my partner since I was 16. We were both going to school together, and I've always been a big supporter of her. And she's very smart, and I've always thought that some of my life's work would be really supporting her in in being the best that she can be. I mean, I really thrive in seeing people that I love around me do well in life. I celebrate other people's victories, and my wife's one of them. So I think going into it, I was probably going into it with a bit of, I'll just I'm going to support my wife, but I really didn't think about all of the things that had to be done at at home and it was a challenge. And I'd say you just have to keep communicating with your partner and just gotta keep communicating and making sure that you're on the same page and you're both pulling in the same direction.

Thomas Batchelor [00:15:48]:
And the more, like anything with any job or any type of task, the more that you do it, the better that you become at it. And then the more that you can then focus on other things that you want to in life.

Christopher Lewis [00:15:58]:
In raising 2 sons, especially now in what you've learned yourself about gender roles, about the changing gender roles in family dynamics right now, how does that adjust the way that you think as a father? How does that adjust the way that you parent your sons as they grow into a world that will be even more different as they get into adulthood?

Thomas Batchelor [00:16:24]:
I've never really thought about the stereotypes as such that man does this, woman does that. I've never been that type of person. I think it'll be great to see in the future my boys of how they probably view it. It will be interesting. I think we're probably at this biggest change in a gender equality or gender stereotype roles more than ever. I do think that it will become the norm, I think, over the next 10, 20, 30 years. I think the numbers are still low. I think the numbers are still very low of men that stay stay home, but it is gaining traction.

Thomas Batchelor [00:16:57]:
But it's a hard job at home. It is a challenging job, but I think it's going to be great to see that, yeah, mom and dad are both capable of doing whatever they want in life.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:05]:
Now you mentioned the fact that you had an employer that was supportive of this journey that you went on to be able to be engaged at home and also support your partner in the new endeavors that she was endeavoring on. And not every business has done that or will do that. How important do you think it is for workplace policies and support systems to be put into place for families, for fathers, for parents in general to allow for them to have that work life balance that you talked about?

Thomas Batchelor [00:17:42]:
Very important. That year off really helped me to adjust. I think if I did it in a part time capacity, I think it would have been a real struggle for me. I think I need that year off to be able to, fully commit to the role, and then now I've adjusted back to 2 days a week. But, I mean, I was there for 12 years before I went on that year. So I've got a a wealth of knowledge, at the power station where I work, and I think it would be not wise to let a lot of that knowledge go. I mean, I feel like I fit really well in with my team and I'm a good team player. I'll help as much as I can where I can, but I do feel like leading into that year, I was having quite a lot of personal leave in regards to this appointment, that appointment.

Thomas Batchelor [00:18:24]:
And so now I'm back 2 days a week, work Monday Tuesday, and then a lot of those appointments are scheduled for Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. So I think for the employer, I think it's actually a really good idea because now I'm not impacting the business as much with some of the commitments that I have to with my kids. And I do feel like women probably get a roar end of the deal when it comes to this part time type scenario. My wife tried to work a part time, but it's it's full time work. I mean, they're having to jam a full time job into a part time capacity. I think we've got a long way to go there in regards to the working mum. And I still feel like there's probably with the men, it seems more attractive that a man would stay home and and have the time off, whether I think the women probably get held back a little bit more. I I do think it's we have to do more to support, I think, working mums in the workplace who work in a part time capacity.

Thomas Batchelor [00:19:16]:
So I feel like a lot of the stories out there out here is that the moms are having to do a full time load in a part time case, which is I don't think is fair.

Christopher Lewis [00:19:24]:
Now a number of the things that you talked about really revolve around that you've gotten to a point where you've identified for yourself the things that you need to be able to do to take care of yourself, but also your family. So I saw this in the piece that you wrote, but also in what you've said that there is a importance that you've placed on self care and communication that seems to be following you now and into the future. Could you share an example for me of how you've incorporated the self care now for yourself in this next phase of your journey of fatherhood and how you hope that that will help you to be able to be an even better father in the future?

Thomas Batchelor [00:20:05]:
Again, just getting my priorities straight. So making sure that I'm not saying yes to things that aren't serving me. I don't go out as much as I like to go out for a beer now and again, but I don't push it. So I'm not the guy who who comes home. I haven't got anything against people who want to come home late or they can do these things. If they can fit it all in, they can do it. I just can't do it. So I've got to make sure that I'm getting to bed at a decent time.

Thomas Batchelor [00:20:28]:
I'm eating a pretty good diet. I'm exercising regularly. I'm speaking to a psychologist. Just reaching out. I mean, just doing things. I mean, I'm helping in my community. I'll say no to certain things, but I'll say yes to other things, you know, other things that align with my values. And I mean, my priority is my family.

Thomas Batchelor [00:20:47]:
And if anything outside of that impact my role as a dad at home, then I have to say, I still struggle to say no. I'm a person that does like to please and does like to say yes. So I've got to keep working at that. And if I do that, then I feel like I'm in the place where I need to be.

Christopher Lewis [00:21:03]:
Now I always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Thomas Batchelor [00:21:10]:
Yep. Ready.

Christopher Lewis [00:21:10]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Thomas Batchelor [00:21:12]:
Growth.

Christopher Lewis [00:21:13]:
Now when was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father?

Thomas Batchelor [00:21:18]:
When I started getting full night sleeps.

Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]:
I remember those times. Now, if I was to talk to your boys, how would they describe you as a dad?

Thomas Batchelor [00:21:26]:
I would like to say that they think I'm funny, that I'm active, that I'm very supportive of their journey, that they feel safe. I do feel the love and affection from my boys. So I'd like to think that they would think I'm doing a okay job.

Christopher Lewis [00:21:41]:
10 years from now, what do you want them to say?

Thomas Batchelor [00:21:43]:
I want them to be able to come to me if they have something going on in their life and say, dad, I need help. And if it's not from me, it has to be from another good man. I do feel like my role as a father is to shepherd them through life and to try and open up as many doors as I can. And if some of those doors they don't want to explore, that's fine. But I really do want to feel like that they can, when they have those bumps along their journey, that they can either speak to me or men like me.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:12]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Thomas Batchelor [00:22:14]:
Other dads. I say just other dads. Other dads who are going through the same things that I'm going through. I walk through the school grounds and I see the way that dads interact with their kids and that inspires me. I really like seeing that.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]:
Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for people to definitely consider and think about and see how they can incorporate that into their lives. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?

Thomas Batchelor [00:22:38]:
Just be vulnerable. Speak about the challenges. Just try and be vulnerable. And that's all I can really say. Just be vulnerable. If you can be vulnerable and open and honest about where you're at, then I think most things will flow there.

Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]:
Now, Thomas, I mentioned that you are a part of Sarah McConachie's book. We'll put a link in the notes today so people can read your story and check that out. If people want to find out any more about you, is there a best place for them to go?

Thomas Batchelor [00:23:02]:
I suppose you could go to LinkedIn or I have got a Facebook account. I'm quite new to all this, so I've enjoyed it. So I don't really have anything else. I'd say probably just reach out to me, and if you want any more of my journey or any of the support groups or just to chat, then I'm always welcome to have a chat with someone who's struggling or just needs a ear to listen.

Christopher Lewis [00:23:24]:
Well, Thomas, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey, the highs and the lows, and I truly wish you all the best.

Thomas Batchelor [00:23:31]:
Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it.

Christopher Lewis [00:23:32]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential source for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week. All geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Christopher Lewis [00:24:31]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. The world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.
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Writing and Fatherhood: An Interview with Evan Porter, Author of Dad Camp
9 sept.· Dads With Daughters
Parenting is a journey filled with highs, lows, challenges, and joys, especially when raising daughters in today's complex world. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast we were joined by Evan Porter, founder of the popular parenting blog Dad Fixes Everything and author of the newly released book Dad Camp. He shared his fears and triumphs of being a father, the transition from blogging to writing a novel, and the importance of balancing personal identity with being an engaged parent.

The Emotional Rollercoaster of Fatherhood

From the moment he discovered he was going to become a father, Evan Porter experienced a whirlwind of emotions. Joy, excitement, fear, and self-doubt all mingled as he stepped into the role of parenting two daughters. Describing his initial reaction, Evan reflected, "It’s a blend of having wanted that and planned for that... but also this moment of, 'Oh my god. It’s really happening.'"

Porter was candid about the inherent fears tied to raising daughters. "The world is a very scary place for girls and for women," he shared, articulating a concern many fathers share. While the desire to shield his daughters from every possible harm loomed large, he acknowledged the reality that some things inevitably lie beyond parental control.

Understanding Individuality in Parenting

Evan's experience of parenting two daughters, each with distinct personalities, illustrates the universal truth that no two children are the same. He emphasized the necessity of tailoring his approach to fit each child’s unique needs and characteristics. This challenge to understand and bond with each daughter individually is a common thread in the tapestry of fatherhood.

With his eldest daughter, now nine years old, Porter finds joy in sharing more complex activities, such as teaching her solitaire and exploring new games. On the other hand, playful activities and light-hearted interactions dominate his relationship with both daughters, underscoring the importance of joy and laughter in strengthening family bonds.

The Struggle of Maintaining Personal Identity

One of the profound topics discussed was the struggle parents face in maintaining their personal identity amidst the demands of parenthood. Porter acknowledged a significant challenge: "Losing sight... of who you are outside of being a father." He articulated the struggle many modern dads encounter—the balancing act of hands-on parenting while trying to retain a piece of their pre-parenthood identity.

This theme of identity loss and the quest to reclaim it runs through his novel, Dad Camp. Written during the COVID-19 lockdown, the book explores a father’s journey to rediscover himself while navigating the ups and downs of parenthood. Through fiction, Porter was able to articulate the complex emotions and experiences common to many parents.

The Transition from Blogging to Novel Writing

Porter’s journey from running the blog Dad Fixes Everything to writing Dad Camp highlights an evolution in understanding and expressing the parenting experience. His blog began as an informative resource, answering practical queries new parents often face. However, novel writing allowed him to delve deeper into the emotional and psychological aspects of parenthood.

Inspired by his experiences and a need for creative expression during the pandemic, Porter found novel writing to be both a cathartic and fulfilling endeavor. The transition allowed him to address the theme of identity from a broader perspective, capturing the essence of fatherhood with authenticity and nuance.

Celebrating Dads in Fiction

Porter’s primary goal in his novel was to offer a relatable and affirming portrayal of modern fathers. He noted that the stereotypical image of the lazy sitcom dad still lingers, overshadowing the dedication and involvement most dads exhibit today. By creating a diverse ensemble of father characters, he hopes to celebrate the multifaceted nature of fatherhood and provide representation that resonates with real-life dads.

As he continues to promote Dad Camp, Porter is already crafting his next literary work, aimed at exploring similar themes of parenthood and identity. His journey as an author and a father is a testament to the continuous evolution and reflection that parenthood demands. Through his writing, Porter hopes to inspire other parents to embrace the complexities and joys of raising children, recognizing the importance of presence, identity, and connection.

In the end, as Evan poignantly observed, "You don’t want to miss out on the hard stuff... It’s not fun, but you’re gonna remember that and you’re gonna wanna have those memories." This candid advice encapsulates the heart of parenting—cherishing the moments, however challenging, and appreciating the journey shared with our children.

You can follow Evan Porter on Instagram and learn more about his work on his website.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to dads with daughters, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to talk to you, to walk alongside with you, and to be able to learn alongside you in regards to this journey that we're on in regard to raising our daughters. I know that I'm not perfect. You're not perfect. None of us are perfect when it comes to being a father, but being a father to a daughter as well. We are always going to have a little bit of gap in between the understanding of their experience as individuals, there's always going to be a little bit of a gap when it comes to the way that we think they think and we can always do something we can always do something daily, to be able to better engage to be able to better bother our daughters. And that's what this podcast is all about.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]:
Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can help you to add some tools to your toolbox and to allow for you to be able to to learn, to grow, and to take some things along the way that will help you to be that dad that you wanna be. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that with those different experiences. And today, we got another great guest. Today we've got another great guest with us. Evan Porter is with us. And he is the founder of the popular parenting blog, Dad Fixes Everything and author of the new book called Dad Camp. Really excited to be able to have him on today to talk about his own journey as being a father of 2 daughters, and to talk a little bit more about his book and what he's learned along the way. Evan, thanks so much for being here today.

Evan Porter [00:02:00]:
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, what a great fit. Dads with Daughters is a perfect tie in for the book, and I'm sure we'll get into it.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]:
I am excited to have you here today. And first and foremost, 1 of the things that I love to do is I love having the power to turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back in time. And I know you got 2 daughters. So I wanna go all the way back to the beginning. When you first found out that you're going to be a dad to a daughter, what was going through your head?

Evan Porter [00:02:23]:
Oh, wow. I think there's a blend of 1 have you know, having wanted that and planned for that and been trying for that, but also this moment, like, oh my god. It's really happening. Like, it's happening so soon. It's happening so fast. Both of both ends of that spectrum of emotion of being so excited that you got what you wanted and you got what you had planned for, but also being like, woah. Wait. Wait.

Evan Porter [00:02:40]:
Wait. I'm not so sure I'm ready. Yeah. You know? Can we can we slow it down a little bit? But then, you know, kinda that gives just just gives way to the excitement of, you know, just really looking forward to to that next chapter. And, you know, I've always wanted to be a dad and that was really You know, I talked to a lot of dads of daughters that talk about the fact that it's a little scary, not only to be a father, but to be a father to a daughter, especially at the beginning as you're kind of fumbling a little bit and trying to figure out kind of those first steps and trying to figure out what does it mean to be a dad, to a daughter.

Christopher Lewis
As you look at the years that you've had thus far with your daughters, what would you say has been your biggest fear or is your biggest fear in raising daughters?

Evan Porter [00:03:15]:
I think that the world is a very scary place for girls and for women. And I think that's 1 of, like, the biggest things that I worry about is there's only so much I can do to to keep them safe. And I can teach them, and I can protect them as much as I can. But it is a scary world out there for women and for girls, and it's harder on them in in so many ways. And part of me wanted the opportunity to have a boy at some point just to put another good man out into the world and make the world a little bit of a better place in that regard too. And so not feeling like I have any control over that, I think, is is really challenging. It gives me nightmares.

Christopher Lewis [00:03:45]:
Now you do have 2 daughters and anytime you add more than 1 to the mix, you've gotta figure things out in a whole different way. I know in my own experience, both my daughters have very different personalities, and I've had to really work hard to be able to understand them individually and build those unique bonds with each of them. So talk to me about for your 2 daughters and your own experience, what are the favorite things that you and each of your daughters love to share with each other?

Evan Porter [00:04:14]:
That's a great question. Yeah. They are so different. I think the nature versus nurture is settled. It's settled in my mind. I think that they are completely different people, completely different ends of many different spectrums. So that's been so, so interesting interesting to think that the way we raise them probably hasn't changed drastically from 1 to the other, but just there's these things in their brains that are wired differently and they're completely, completely different people. And so they each require kind of their own approach. And we have completely, completely different people. And so they each require kind of their own approach, and we have our own relationships. So with my oldest 1 who's 9, I mean, we just love to goof around. I think both I'd love to goof around with both of them. I love to be the silly fun dad throwing them around in the pool and flipping them in the pool. Anytime we can laugh together, playing games or just cracking jokes or making up games on the spot, I think with both of them, that's really, really effective and some of my favorite parts of of being a dad.

Evan Porter [00:04:57]:
My older 1 is also kind of getting into just becoming a little adult person. So you can do more complicated things with her. You teach her new things and games and teaching her, like, how to play solitaire or, like, new card games that we can play together. And so I think that's a big theme. I love to just play with them and playing them with them in different ways. And that's just the best part of being a dad. So I try to get as much out of that as possible. Parent is never easy.

Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]:

There are ups, there's downs, there's positives, there's negatives, and it's always changing. What's been the hardest part for you in being a father to a daughter?

Evan Porter [00:05:27]:
I think maybe we're skipping ahead a little bit into some of the some of the book inspiration and things like that. But I think losing sight a little bit of who you are outside of being a father and being a parent because it is all consuming. And I think, like, this new generation of dads are is doing so much, and they're very hands on. They're very active and very engaged in it. The slice of the pie that is not related to your kids gets smaller and smaller and smaller. I think you, you know, you lose sight of hobbies and you it's harder to keep in touch with friends and you have less time for yourself and for the other parts of your life. And I think that's a big challenge. Even though parenting your kids is so, so rewarding, you still need that other stuff.

Evan Porter [00:06:00]:
And I'm always, like, trying to calibrate and find ways to, like, hold on to, like, little pieces of who I was before kids and, like, who I am outside of being just a father. So I haven't found the magic answer to that quite yet. That's 1 of that's a daily struggle and definitely something that you have to constantly work on. And there's not once you to be honest, I I would say that once you feel like you finally hit your groove, something changes and you have to adjust and change yet again. So it is ever going and ever changing and that's the 1 thing of fatherhood that's the constant is that there is no constant and that you will continuously have to make adjustments along the way. Now you kind of talked about the new book, but I wanna start first at the fact that you have a blog that you started a number of years back, called Dad Fixes Everything. And I guess first and foremost, what made you decide that you wanted to start this blog to be able to talk to other fathers or talk more about your own experiences with a larger audience?

Evan Porter [00:07:03]:
It was an outlet for me to practice writing and not the kind of writing that I've done in the book, but marketing and copywriting and blogging and freelance writing and journalism and kind of all these other pieces that I've done over my career and putting them to work for myself. And so I was a new parent at the time. I think my oldest daughter was around 2 or 3 when I launched it, and I was kind of finding myself with all these questions and things that I was wondering about and very like fact based things like what's the difference between, size 4 and 4 T and kids clothes? What is the difference between a mini crib and a crib and a bassinet and a rocker and a glider and, like, kind of all these, like, sort of okay. Like, I need to figure this out. And so kind of researching these things and presenting the information in a way that helped me learn and that hopefully was helpful to other people, that was kind of the inspiration behind the blog. It was just a great outlet to practice to practice writing and practice, some of those other skills that I was talking about.

Christopher Lewis [00:07:55]:
I am someone that also had a blog that I started back in 2007. And it kind of grew with me, in my own experiences, I know what you're talking about, and definitely have been there and have done that. And I also am an author. And I know how much time, effort, patience and more goes into a writing of a book, let alone a novel that is as large as your book is. So you went from having this blog, Dad Fixes Everything, to over the years then getting inspired to be able to write a new book, a new book that just came out just recently called Dad Camp. And I guess talk to me about that transition it from writing in a blog sense to now writing a novel that really incorporates in and brings forward a story of a father and daughters to a larger audience as well? What was the inspiration for the book? And what made you decide that you wanted to put all that time and effort into creating this?

Evan Porter [00:09:03]:
Feeling a little bored and a little bit stuck with the kinds of work that I was doing and wanting a new challenge. It wasn't my first time doing creative writing. I'd written, screenplays, in my early twenties. I'd done some screenwriting, and I missed writing fiction and just like writing pure creatively that wasn't informational. It wasn't for marketing. It wasn't for copywriting. It wasn't for journalism. It was just for fun and just for the experience of doing it and and for storytelling.

Evan Porter [00:09:26]:
And so I just wanted to revisit that again. I took many, many years off of doing that, and I think it was in that kind of COVID lockdown time when I was really cooped up and really feeling stale and stuck and just needing a spark, needing something that was just for me. And so there was something very meta about it because the book deals with so much with that loss of identity as a parent. And for me, writing the book was an attempt to kinda get that back a little bit. There were a couple ways.

Christopher Lewis [00:09:50]:
Talk to me a little bit about that, the loss of identity, but also the interplay of fiction and nonfiction, and being able to incorporate some of your own experiences as a father in to this fictionalized account of a father with his daughters?

Evan Porter [00:10:07]:
Yeah. Because we touched on having trouble keeping your hobbies and staying in touch with friends and, you know, finding time to exercise or whatever it is that you like to do. And then sort of during COVID time, that was all cranked up to 11. I remember being in the house with the kids. My littlest was just a baby at the time, really doing nothing but taking care of them all day long and never really leaving the house, never seeing anybody, never never doing anything. And so that was really, really tough. And I also felt guilty, like, oh, I should be enjoying this time with my kids. Like, we're spending so much time together.

Evan Porter [00:10:35]:
This should be fun. Like, we should be making, like, happy memories and, like, kinda, like, dealing with that that guilt of not enjoying it more. And a lot of those ideas just kind of came out in the book and it felt like a natural thing for me to explore via fiction. And again, you know, there's that sort of meta piece where the dad in the story is going through some of those challenges as well. Of course, not in, like, the COVID environment. Chose to, like, that COVID didn't exist in this story world that I was building. But he was having those same issues losing touch with who he was before. And so I think the early drafts of the book had a lot of heart and a lot of passion and, like, kind of rawness to them because I was, like, living what I was writing about so thoroughly.

Evan Porter [00:11:12]:
And then, of course, the novel evolved so much from those early drafts. But, you know, a lot of the the heart of the story was there from the very beginning and was based on kinda what I was going through at that time.

Christopher Lewis [00:11:20]:
So as dads are reading this book or anyone that's reading this book, what are you hoping that they take out of this? And what are you hoping that they can then take from this and incorporate into their own life?

Evan Porter [00:11:33]:
I want dads to feel seen by the story in some way, even if they don't identify with the main character. There's a whole cast of them cast of different dads at this camp that they go to. And I tried to represent different different types of dads, I mean, different archetypes and kind of uncovering the layers of of all those characters. And I want any any parent really, but especially dads, to be able to see themselves in the story and just kind of feel validated or understood a little bit. I think it's kind of it's tough. I think the sort of ghost of the lazy sitcom dad still hangs over us heavily as a society. And it's I think dads are are really doing a good job for the most part these days and and are not always seen and not always appreciated the way that I think they could be. And I just wanna have good good representation of of dads in fiction, and I think that's what I tried to accomplish here.

Evan Porter [00:12:17]:
Even though each of them had their own flaws and their own challenges, I just wanted to kind of, like, have a celebration of, like, some of the good stuff too.

Christopher Lewis [00:12:23]:
So now this book is out into the world. And I guess as you look at the future, what is the future for you as a writer, as a father? Are there things that you really would love to be able to do to be able to take what you've done here and take it to a different level or to move in a different direction to tell different stories. What's next?

Evan Porter [00:12:42]:
I'm working on another book. I can't say too much about it just yet. In the middle of promoting this 1 and doing doing interviews and all the kind of stuff that I'm doing, I'm working on number 2. So I'm looking forward to being able to talk about that soon. Think it'll have some similar themes in terms of parenthood and moms and dads and all sorts of caregivers and new parents will hopefully be able to relate to it. But this whole process has been so interesting because, you know, I did it just for me and just as something that I wanted to do for myself. And now I'm getting to, like, share that with my family and my kids. I just did my first in person book event at a bookstore, like, with an inner like, a q and a with another author and a signing.

Evan Porter [00:13:16]:
And, you know, my daughters were sitting in the front row of the seats kinda, like, staring at me. Like so it was very, very fun to, like, be able to share this with them. And I'm going up to Baltimore in my hometown a couple weeks to do another event, and I'm bringing my oldest daughter with me, and she's gonna kinda share in that experience. It'll be a little adventure for the 2 of us. So and I'm just trying to enjoy it as much as I possibly can, and I hope my, my girls are are proud of me.

Christopher Lewis [00:13:37]:
So talk to me about what has been the response from your daughters, as you've read either the whole book to them, or parts of the book to them? And how does that response inspire you or push you to be able to continue that writing?

Evan Porter [00:13:53]:
Well, my 3 year old has no idea what's going on. Right? She knows that I wrote a book and she knows what it looks like. She's seen the cover and everything and so she could point it out. She sees it. But she just thinks it's cool that we're having parties and going to book stores and running around. My oldest it is an adult book, I should say. Some people hear the concept and they think that it's for 11 year olds to read, but it's really a fully adult book that's from the adult point of view. And so but my 9 year old thinks it's really cool and she wants to read it.

Evan Porter [00:14:16]:
I've let her read little snippets of it here and there. And I think she's really proud and excited. And I think that there was a quote from James Cameron that was watching his documentary about his deep sea diving. And he said something like, even more than your presence, your kids need your example. And so, yeah, I hope that they get something out of watching me kind of, like, pursue my dreams. And even if it doesn't register in the moment, maybe 1 day they'll look back on it and and be inspired by it.

Christopher Lewis [00:14:39]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? In 1 word, what is fatherhood?

Evan Porter [00:14:48]:
Love is the first word that came to mind.

Christopher Lewis [00:14:51]:
Now, when was the time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a doctor?

Evan Porter [00:14:57]:
I'll just give you 1 that pops that pops to mind. We were at a feel like a big water slide water park place, and my oldest was scared to get on the big water slide. And I was able to give her, like, a really good fatherly pep talk and get her to work up the courage to do it. And then she was, like, really happy that she did it. And my brother was there with us, and he texted me later. And he was like, that was a great dad speech you gave her. And, he was really impressed with my ability to get her to be brave. And, yeah, that 1 stuck with me. I felt it was cool that I did it and that somebody else recognized it too.

Christopher Lewis [00:15:27]:
Now if I was to talk to your kids, and your 3 year old might not say much, but if I was to talk to them, how would they describe who you're dad?

Evan Porter [00:15:33]:
Fun and silly. You know, we talked earlier. I'd I'd, like, love to get in the pool with them and throw them around and flip them in the air and, you know, make them laugh. Like, I'll do anything to make them laugh. And that's what I live for. And so I think that's probably what they would say.

Christopher Lewis [00:15:46]:
In 10 years from now, what would you say?

Evan Porter [00:15:47]:
Remember that I was there all the time. Like, I think that I want them to know that I was always there at the swim meets and the sports games and the school play and never had to miss it for anything else. So regardless of any other way that I might let them down, down, hopefully they just remember that I was always like right there in their corner.

Christopher Lewis [00:16:03]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Evan Porter [00:16:04]:
It's my own dad. He passed away a number of years ago, but he was a fantastic dad, a great man, very gentle soul. And he taught me so much about being a good writer or being a good dad and being a good man. So I, you know, he's not around anymore, but

Christopher Lewis [00:16:19]:
Now you've shared a lot about your experiences thus far, and some of the things that you've learned along the way. As we finish up today and you think about all all dads out there, what's 1 piece of advice you'd wanna give to give to any father?

Evan Porter:
You don't wanna miss out on the hard stuff. It is so hard. And, know, there's this funny thing that happens. I think anytime there's a challenge or or a day or your plans don't go the way you thought they would and you're frustrated and tired and sad or whatever. Like, I feel like you always look back and appreciate it and find it funny or it's it becomes a good story or a happy memory in some way. You know, I always use this example of taking the kids to the beach. It's like so much work and it's hot and it's sandy and sometimes it feels like everybody's miserable, but then you look back and you're like, oh, we had such a nice day at the beach. For some reason, our brains are funny like that.

And I think like you don't be the guy who didn't change the poopy diapers. I know it's not fun, but you're gonna remember that and you're gonna wanna like have those memories. Trust me.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]:
Now if people wanna find out more about the book, about your blog, about other things that you're doing, where's the best place where's the best

Evan Porter [00:17:21]:
You can follow me on Instagram where I talk a lot about the book and my my journey writing it and promoting it. That's at words by Evan Porter on Instagram. And words by Evan Porter dot com is my website where I share everything about the book and what I'm working on and all sorts of fun stuff like that.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:37]:
Well, Evan, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for putting this great book out into the world. Thank you. Thank you for the great questions. Have fun. If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the Fatherhood Insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be.

Christopher Lewis [00:17:58]:
We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and power daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling You're the best dad you can be.
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Embracing Vulnerability: Fatherhood Lessons from The Dad Bag
2 sept.· Dads With Daughters
Navigating the Journey of Fatherhood

Fatherhood is a complex and rewarding journey that demands a unique balance of strength, empathy, and patience. For fathers of daughters, the stakes can feel particularly high. In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, hosts Dr. Christopher Lewis, Michael Ramos, and Steven Manchester delve into the nuances of raising daughters, from the initial trepidation to the ongoing quest to raise strong, independent women.

Embracing the Journey Together

Dr. Christopher Lewis opens the episode by emphasizing the importance of community and learning from one another's experiences. "All of our journeys is a little bit different," he notes, "we can learn from each other... as long as you're willing to open yourself up to learning." This sentiment sets the stage for an enlightening conversation with guests who have both navigated this journey and sought to share their wisdom with others.

The Initial Fear and Responsibility

When asked about their first reactions to learning they were going to be fathers to daughters, both Steven Manchester and Michael Ramos admit to feelings of terror. Such an emotional response is not uncommon; many fathers experience fear when anticipating the responsibilities of raising a daughter. Manchester explains, "I needed to do it the right way... kids don't necessarily listen, but they do watch." Ramos, reflecting on his own experience, highlights the ongoing nature of parenthood: "I just had a little baby girl and I brought her home from the hospital... I was going to learn every single day and never stop learning."

Addressing the Biggest Fears

Lewis probes deeper, asking about their biggest fears. Here, Manchester articulates the weight of setting a high standard, "I want me to be the example of what she should expect." For Ramos, the sentiment is similar. He emphasizes the importance of modeling respectful behavior to set high expectations for how his daughters should be treated by others, and also how his sons should treat others.

Overcoming Challenges

Every parent faces challenges, but raising daughters comes with its own unique set of difficulties. Manchester likens raising boys to "playing checkers" and raising daughters to "playing chess." The complexity, he notes, requires a deeper level of empathy and understanding. Ramos concurs, describing the intricate personalities of his daughters and the importance of adapting his approach to meet each of their unique needs.

Building Strong, Unique Relationships

Fostering strong relationships with daughters involves more than just being present; it requires emotional vulnerability and genuine connection. Ramos shares that learning to be nurturing, sensitive, and empathetic was crucial for forging these bonds. Manchester underscores the importance of having individual relationships with each child, independent of the rest of the family.

The Genesis of "The Dad Bag"

The conversation then shifts to the inspiration behind The Dad Bag, a book co-authored by Manchester and Ramos. From the anxious moments of early fatherhood to the realization that parenting lacks an instruction manual, Ramos recounts his journey towards writing a guide that offered practical, heartfelt advice for new fathers. Manchester, an accomplished author, saw an opportunity to create something impactful, noting, "This book has the potential to have more of a positive impact than most of the stuff that I've written."

Lessons from The Dad Bag

The Dad Bag uses the metaphor of a "dad bag" filled with symbolic items to represent life lessons. These items serve as visual aids to reinforce critical messages, making the lessons accessible and memorable for both the father and child. The book aims to break through stereotypes and offer a new model of fatherhood defined by empathy, vulnerability, and engagement.

Be There and Don't Give Up

As the podcast concludes, Dr. Lewis asks for their final piece of advice to fathers. Manchester succinctly states, "Be there," while Ramos elaborates, “Don't give up. You got this." Their words resonate as a reminder that fatherhood is a journey filled with highs and lows, but with presence and perseverance, every dad can make a profound impact on their daughters' lives. For more insights and to get your copy of *The Dad Bag*, visit [Amazon](https://www.amazon.com). Fatherhood is a journey best taken together, learning and growing every step of the way. Here's to raising strong, independent women, one day at a time.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guys to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women, Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being on this journey with you, an opportunity to be able to welcome alongside you as you're working to raise those strong independent women that you want to grow up in society today. And all of our journeys is a little bit different. We're all on a unique journey, but we can learn from each other. We have an opportunity to learn from each other. And every day that we walk on this journey, there's something new that we can learn from the person next door, from the person on the other side of the earphones. It doesn't matter as long as you're willing to open yourself up to learning. And that's what's important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]:
And every week I work to be able to help you to meet new people, fathers or others with resources, people that can help you to be able to see fatherhood in a little bit different way. Every father fathers in a little bit different way. And there's a lot of resources that are out there as well. Today, we've got 2 great dads with us. Steven Manchester and Michael Ramos is with us today. They both are fathers of 4. We're gonna be talking about their journey as fathers, but also authors. We're gonna be talking about a book that they put out just recently called The Dad Bag, and we're gonna be talking about that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:27]:
So I'm really excited to have them here today and have you learn from their journeys. Steven, Michael, thanks so much for being here today.

Steven Manchester [00:01:33]:
Thanks for having us, Chris.

Michael Ramos [00:01:34]:
Thank you very much, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time because I have that power and I love to be able to have our dads do some self reflection here. And I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a daughter. What was going through your heads?

Steven Manchester [00:01:52]:
Tara. Absolutely, Tara. I think for me, Chris, it was a lot of weight. Right? Because I needed to do it the right way. And we've, you know, as you know, and Mike knows clearly, kids don't necessarily listen, but they do watch. So from the moment we had our daughter, Isabella, I can honestly say she's made me a better person, a better man. And I've been really conscious of what I've done and the things I've said because of wanting to be that dad to her.

Michael Ramos [00:02:13]:
I think Steve probably echoed my exact sentiments with Tara, uncertainty. I know I figured it out. I I knew I'd figure it out eventually, and some things would be innate, but there were so many questions that I didn't have. And I think the answer is that I didn't have to questions. And I won't tell you where the dad bag came from yet, but it does directly connect to the moment that I realized, like, I just had a little baby girl and I brought her home from the the hospital. But I think I learned within the first few months that this was a journey and not a destination being a dad, specifically to girls, that I was going to learn every single day and never stop learning because things would always change. And that's exactly what has happened and continues to happen, even with the oldest one being 19.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:58]:
Now, both of you said that your first reactions were terror. And that being said, I hear that from a lot of dads, especially dads with daughters, that there is fear, the fear going along with raising daughters. Talk to me about your biggest fear in raising a daughter.

Steven Manchester [00:03:12]:
It's my true belief that our job is to to raise them, right? Not keep them. So even from the time that they're young, again, it's all about setting that example, but whoever she ends up with or whoever she has contact with as far as boys or men, I want me to be the example of what she should expect, right? Like the bar should be raised very high. So for me, the tarot really comes from the weight of responsibility, right? Of getting it right. You know what I mean? And it's never gonna be perfect, we all know that. God knows I've made my fair share of mistakes, but the intentions of being conscious of the fact that listen, I need to do the best I can do so that she understands what, you know, what she deserves. Right?

Michael Ramos [00:03:56]:
And I think for me, it was very much the same. It's funny because I tell the story and it it applies to both my boys my boy and my girls. But, as far as Steve said, setting the bar. I always wanted my girls to know what the expectation was from the boys that would they would come in contact with. And then I wanted to be the same example for my son so he would know how to treat all of the people, and lead by example in that way. And and somebody had once shared a story, and that's where I learned this from. They shared a story once with me and they said, I want if my daughter goes out on her 1st date at whatever age it is and somebody treats her disrespectfully, I want it to be a red flag. I don't want it to be something that feels normal or feels like she's seen or experienced at home.

Michael Ramos [00:04:48]:
So although I think that's who I am anyways, is to be very respectful at all times. It especially made me conscious of the fact that I need to be respectful at all times in my treatment of all women, whether it was a partner, a mother, a grandmother, a sister, because that's the example that I was setting for them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:04]:
And raising kids is never easy. There is definitely high points, but there is challenges, there's hard parts. Talk to me about the hardest part in raising a daughter.

Steven Manchester [00:05:14]:
Well, I can tell you from experience, you know, I've raised a couple sons and that was like playing checkers. And then along comes my girl and now I'm playing chess at an advanced level. So it's amazing. I mean, you almost have to become an empath in a sense where it's not just the way that you think, it's the way that you feel and trying to understand how they feel and and providing what they need. So for me, the hard part was, I guess, getting out of my way and not trying to fix everything for her. Just being able to listen and just be there for her.

Michael Ramos [00:05:40]:
Again, similar. It was being able to determine when I needed to listen and when I needed to solve the problem because they're very different and there will never be any instruction given. There's almost an expectation that and I said because I've had hundreds of conversations with my 2 teenage daughters where sometimes I got it right and sometimes I was listening when I should have been solving and sometimes I was solving when I should have been listening. And I think to answer the question more specifically, what's been the most difficult part for me, I think has has been learning their personalities because I feel like they're a little more deeper and complex than my boy, and I can only draw from that example. But my 3 daughters are all very different from each other. And there's an expression in psychology that they use where you peel the layers of the onion back to get what's inside, to get to what, you know, the deep root of what's inside is. And one daughter wants me to peel the onion very, very slowly over the course of 45 minutes to get to that. The other daughter wants me to smash the onion, which is more my style.

Michael Ramos [00:06:45]:
Get what's inside. And then the other one wants me to peel it, like, ever so slowly, then start smashing the load, then go back to peeling. You know, so I think that's been the most difficult part is trying to understand how complex and beautiful their personalities are, how unique they are, and then how I need to then respond differently, learn and grow and do things that don't feel natural to me because my personality tells me to handle everything one way, but they are very different human beings and need me to handle things differently.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:11]:
Now you talk about the fact that every child is unique, and that's definitely the case. You can have 2 kids that you come from the same parents, and they can be completely different individuals, and we always see that. So talk to me about with your kids, especially your daughters, how have you been able to build those strong, unique relationships with each of your daughters? And what's your favorite thing that you do and share with your daughters?

Michael Ramos [00:07:42]:
So important to me. I think learning that it was okay to be nurturing, learning that it was okay to be sensitive, learning that it was okay to cry. And I'm not saying breakdown crying every 15 minutes throughout the day, but learning that it was okay for me to have emotions because society has dictated to me that I can only be tough, that men don't cry and that men don't have emotions and reactions like that. So I was able to connect with my daughters because I was able to be vulnerable. I was able to connect with my daughters because I knew empathy, because if I didn't know empathy, how could I understand them and be compassionate and be empathetic if I couldn't be that myself? So through a 13 week curriculum that I became a nurturing father's facilitator and worked with a lot of dads and some incarcerated dads. I learned a lot of things that later on in life where I was I was able to, to apply. But I think those things were so critical in order for me to be able to connect with them at the level that that I do where they're so comfortable. They'll talk to me about literally anything.

Steven Manchester [00:08:42]:
That's not gonna be easy to follow, Chris. That was fantastic. But I will just add to that and say that for me and Bella, it was just 1st and foremost just being there, making sure that she knows that I'm a vet. I don't care what it is like I'm there. And secondly, I think it's so important to have relationships with each of your kids that are independent of everybody else in the family. So there are times the whole family is doing things, and then there's times where I just go out to to lunch with my daughter. And then we talk about and it's a a relationship that I've established just between her and I, and I think that's where the trust is born and it's kind of built on. I don't ever want her to play, you know, need to feel like she used to play favorites, but it's, it's also, it's very, very important to me if you're feeling down, you'll just need to go to your mother.

Steven Manchester [00:09:23]:
You can come to me as well. And to Mike's point, being aware of the fact that I need to have that empathy, I need to show that empathy, and And I may not have all the answers. And even if I do, she probably doesn't wanna hear them anyway. So again, it's just being available and and, making sure she knows that I have her back, which is an odd way to put it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:42]:
But Now I mentioned at the beginning that the 2 of you came together to write a newer book called dad bag or the dad bag. And, I guess I wanna go back before I ask you some questions about the book itself. Let's go back to the genesis of this because I know, Steve, you've been an author for many years, your style of writing is a bit different than what this is. So so talk to me about how the 2 of you came together and why you decided to come up with this concept and put it onto paper.

Michael Ramos [00:10:12]:
So, let me just stop by saying I just need to give a little kudos to the amazing human being, father, and friend that Steve is because Steve Manchester, I've known as an author and I've known as a friend. I don't consider myself to be an author. This was something very important to me, and he's done presentations for me and in front of dad's groups and for private agency and also some state agencies. So I knew that he would be the perfect person. Where it came from was early, you asked, the terror feeling of knowing that I was having a little girl, but also just like a child, period. I remember bringing my daughter home from the hospital and putting her on the floor in the car seat. And I was sitting in the living room by myself, and I looked down at her in the car seat, sitting there between my legs. And I said, geez, what do I do now? And I went, well, I guess I should take her out.

Michael Ramos [00:10:58]:
That's a stop. Let me take her out of the car seat. And I mean, I kinda knew what to do, but, like, I also didn't. So I figured it out, stumbled along over the next, like, you know, week or 2, and then the remote control broke for the TV. So I went to RadioShack for anybody under 40 who's listening. That's, an electronics saw that once was in business. But I went to RadioShack and I bought a new new remote control for the TV. I brought it home and I opened it up.

Michael Ramos [00:11:27]:
It was like $6.99, and it had 12 pages of instructions in 5 different languages. And I said, this remote control comes with that many pages of instructions in so many different languages. And I just brought a beautiful little human being home from the hospital with, like, no directions whatsoever, with no instruction, with no anything. And I said, gee, someone should write a book, not only just for parents to come home from, like, you know, the the hospital with, but especially dads. And that's where the dad bag came from. Steve and I had already worked together doing some fatherhood work, him mostly doing some presentations. And I was already doing nurturing fathers and also some a lot of presentations nationally. And I reached out to him and just just like that, he said, love it.

Michael Ramos [00:12:14]:
Love the idea. Let's do it. And I know that fatherhood is so important to him. I knew it just would be a great marriage to, get the book written.

Steven Manchester [00:12:22]:
I gotta tell you, it was a no brainer for me because first and foremost, I really admire Mike. The things that he's done in the community, for the state, the impact that he's had on people, how can you not get your wagon to that? So some of the themes that I've had in my writing over the last 30 years really has a lot to do with fatherhood. Mike and I are really big on there's a big difference between being a father and being a dad, and it's like kinda hammering that stuff home. I also have a background in the prison system. I worked for the Department of Correction for 10 years. So I saw guys that were leaving without a clue on how to father their children. And you think, what a tragedy, right? Because generationally, that's, you know, that's potentially, you know, absolutely awful, right? So, it made perfect sense. And when we got together Mike's concepts, we were able to flesh them out.

Steven Manchester [00:13:04]:
It took some time. We had to find the right illustrator in Stephanie Grassi, who's just a wonderful person as well. So this hasn't been any work at all. For me, it's been a joy. And I really think, I mean, I normally write adult novels, write 90,000 words. This book, I don't know what even it came in at, but I think this book has the potential to have more of a positive impact than most of the stuff that I've written. And I I'm grateful to Mike for that opportunity to be able to be a part of

Michael Ramos [00:13:29]:
it. Ironic. I'm more grateful to you. So that's really nice.

Steven Manchester [00:13:33]:
And I I do mean that sincerely, right, for the people that are listening. I think, you know, Michael will get into this a little bit too, but it's not a bad bag, but it's really I think it's for the family. I think it's for the entire family. I think it's for the dad kind of being able to help mom out or step up and and, you know, do what he's supposed to do. But in a way that what I love about this is it's really almost an instruction guide that's disguised as a children's book. So if dad's reading that to to, you know, his child and dad's also learning as well. Right? And I'm a firm believer we're all in the same boat. Right? It's just you gotta pick up a paddle and start rowing, and I think that's what this book's about.

Michael Ramos [00:14:08]:
There's so much data and statistics out there that prove that mom's health is increased significantly when dads are engaged. There's factors and indicators for breastfeeding that more moms breastfeed and are likely to breastfeed if they have dads engaged. And it makes sense why. And it makes sense that there's moms that are under less stress when dads are involved because dads are helping out. And we know parenting for mom or dad, because both are critically important, is very difficult if you're doing it alone. I mean, I think that's also one the things that we like to drive home is that dads really need to be engaged and involved. And the difference between being a dad and being a father is exactly that. It's not just buying a ball for your kid and saying, oh, here, I bought this ball for you.

Michael Ramos [00:14:49]:
And then going in the house, it's stopping to teach the rules, to play the game, to, you know, to teach kids how to self regulate. It's all of those things. And while you're doing that, mom gets a break too and vice versa.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:02]:
Now in the book, one of the things that I noticed was that the father in the story talks about the importance of effective communication. How do you think his approach to communication differs from the conventional methods and why do you think it's effective?

Michael Ramos [00:15:18]:
I think it's because mostly what I was saying before about empathy and compassion and being able to look at the communication from a different perspective and not from the more conventional model. And although I I think there's been a lot of movement more recently with lots of men in this country and lots of dads. I still think there's a lot of dads that still believe that they are the disciplinary, that they shouldn't cry, that they shouldn't have emotion, that they are supposed to be strong and tough. And you can be those things too, but you can also have compassion, be empathetic, and be an engaged dad. It'd be nurturing. And I think that's the difference in the approach. That's the difference in the patience. That's probably a keyword there.

Michael Ramos [00:16:02]:
The patience that it takes to develop those relationships and understand that with 3 daughters, the dad in the book was specifically just the boy and the girl, but the dad in the book's ability to understand and that that's what it took in order to connect with the children and was that a level of patience to really understand them and be able to see that empathy and that compassion.

Steven Manchester [00:16:24]:
For me, like the communication, this book in many respects is, I think we're trying to break through some stereotypes. And when you look at a generation just prior to us, my father and his brothers and my grandparents, and it went from you to be seen and not heard to my father would listen, but empathy, I'm not sure, was at the top of the list. He was putting food on the table, shoes on your feet, and if you cry, then he didn't care for it. So for me, and I'm gonna just switch real quickly right to my sons. If my sons fell down and scraped their knee, I don't I don't want anybody crying. Right? We we talked about that. But if there's something that really hurt them and it hurt their soul, I'll sit and cry with them. And it was so, so important, like, when my parents passed, I watched my kids watching me and I didn't hold back.

Steven Manchester [00:17:05]:
And I also talked about it. So Mike brought up the word earlier, vulnerable, and I think that's the key here. I believe some men see things as weakness, right, when they show their feelings. For me, that's true strength. I mean, that's strength to be able to show your children, I also have feelings, I also mourn and grieve and, you know, I'm happy and I'm sad. By sharing that with your children, you also give them permission to do the same. And I think it just bonds you closer. Right? My kids are more apt to come to me because I'm not going to judge them based on their emotional reaction.

Steven Manchester [00:17:33]:
And I think that's one of the things I really love about this book. And Mike's concepts, even, you know, very early on from boys playing with a doll or girls asking questions, like, for me, it was like kinda let's let's just break through that and be honest. Just be vulnerable and honest. And and I think that's where the magic is in this book.

Michael Ramos [00:17:49]:
You know, to expand a little bit on what Steve said with a slightly different concept, it also makes me feel strong to be able to care for my my children. So, yeah, it's a it's a sign of strength, like like Steve said, to be able to be vulnerable and to be able to give your children permission to feel those feelings too. But it also makes me feel strong to change a diaper and to be able to cook food and to be able to care for my children and nurture my children because culturally and also generationally, historically in my family, that's not something that men do. Men don't change diapers. Men don't wash clothes, do laundry. They don't do any of those things. I've always seen that as a sign of weakness. It makes me feel strong to know that I can take care of myself and my children at all times if I need to.

Michael Ramos [00:18:31]:
It feels completely opposite to me if I have to rely on someone else to do those things because I I'm just not or I don't know how. So also, I think that's to answer your question too a little bit, that's probably a less conventional approach, but I think that's changing and I'm very happy that that's changing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]:
I noticed also in the book that the book is called The Dad Bag. The father uses various items from his dad bag as symbolic representations of life lessons. Can you discuss the significance of the metaphor that you're using here and how it adds depth to the narrative?

Steven Manchester [00:19:03]:
I think this is very intentional, right, right from the beginning that we were gonna use a backpack called the dad bag, much like a mom would have a diaper bag. The dad has the because this book was written really for for families and and children from, you know, because this book was written really for families and children from 5, you know, 5 years old on. So to look at visuals and then hear the narrative that goes along with it, I think it helps the dad or the protagonist within the story, as well as the dad who's reading the book, you know, to to his child, right? Whether it be a boy or a girl. For me, it's just again, I think kids are very visual and I think it helps to carry those lessons. It's easy to remind a kid, if you're talking to them about a certain lesson in years and a prop, later on, all you have to do is pull up the prop, and the message has been received again.

Michael Ramos [00:19:50]:
I love the representation of each item, and I feel like there could be a 1,000 things in every dad bag because of all the the life lessons, but that's where the onion peeling, that's a very personal family specific story with one of my daughters. We've we've talked about this. She'll actually reference it and say, papa, I need you to peel the onion. So we use that. It's a metaphor and it's something that, you know, you way of addressing and and introducing something in the book, but it it comes from draws from a an an actual experience that's really helped with communication that's been used a number of times where one daughter will say, you could just bust the onion because, like like, I'm going out tonight. Like, my friends are picking up in 10 minutes. You know what I mean? Or they'll say, I'm a you could just bust that onion open. So with that, everybody that ends up buying, I'm gonna send onions to everyone.

Michael Ramos [00:20:39]:
No. Nobody's getting onions. I'm just I'm just kidding.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:42]:
Now I'm not gonna give up the end of the book, but I will say that the father at the end does share a heart felt letter that he wrote to his kids before they're born. How do you think this letter really encapsulated or encapsulates the father's hopes and aspirations for his children's future?

Steven Manchester [00:20:59]:
I think it's a representation of the responsibility that he feels. I think the important piece here, Chris, is that he wrote it before that child was born. So to Mike's earlier point, it's so important to learn each of their personalities and to be able to almost retrofit how you father, right, or how you parent. What I like about that piece of the book is that he wrote it from his heart before this child was born, right? So these are his aspirations, his dreams, and also the responsibility he feels, right, to be the right dad for this kid. And in

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]:
the end, as people are reading this book, as they are reading it to their own kids, what are you hoping that the fathers that are reading this are gaining from it personally? And what are you hoping that their families gain from it?

Michael Ramos [00:21:39]:
I'm hoping that at the very, very least, just a sliver, if the dad learns or a light turns on that there is more than one way and that there's a possibility to think outside of the box and it helps him have less fear, not have that terrified feeling. And that's why the goal for me is to have this this book literally in every single hospital in the country. Because for me, it doesn't make sense that any dad should ever leave the maternity ward of a hospital with a human being without having this book in their hand because it exists. And because it's an instructional manual, it just makes sense to me because then dads don't have to be afraid. Dads won't buy remote control that have more instructions than their child's will have that they will have brought their child to him from the hospital and it'll help with that fear. And that's what I hope the dad gets from it. And if the dad gets that, the family gets everything. So I don't even need to say what the family will get from it because if the dad, they all win.

Steven Manchester [00:22:31]:
That's a great answer. For me, I get, you know, I I've read this book 7000 times. Right? So you get to the end of it. It's almost like a sub, like a subtle contract, right, between the father and his child, where it's like, I'm setting some expectations for you, but really what's happening is he's setting expectations for himself. He's kinda laying it out there for his daughter or his son. So I love that piece of it. We don't use a sledgehammer to, you know, slam people over the head with it, but dad legitimately sits down and reads this to his daughter, then there are some expectations that are there. And so to to Mike's point, right, some of the fear hopefully gets dispelled and and this dad understands stands.

Steven Manchester [00:23:05]:
He's not the only one in the boat. We got a lot of people in the boat, so stop rowing. Mike's tying.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]:
And now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as dads. So I'm gonna ask you both. So first and foremost, in one word, what is fatherhood? Love.

Steven Manchester [00:23:21]:
I'm gonna say commitment because you use love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:24]:
Now when was the time that you felt that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Steven Manchester [00:23:31]:
Never. I'll say the same. I can't use one word, but it still hasn't happened. And I'm not sure it will until I draw my last breath.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:37]:
Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Michael Ramos [00:23:41]:
I would say loving. It depends on the kids. I hear cool a lot, but that's I sing in a rock band, and I have lots of tattoos. So, like, to daughters, I'm like a really cool dad. There's a lot of words, but I do hear cool a lot. Like, I'm a cool dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Steven Manchester [00:23:57]:
I would say the kids. I would say each one of my children because I owe that to them.

Michael Ramos [00:24:01]:
Everything that was missing in my life from a father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:05]:
Now you've both given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that you shared in the book, but also things that you've learned in your own journeys. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?

Steven Manchester [00:24:18]:
For me, it's 2 words, be there. Above all things, just be there.

Michael Ramos [00:24:22]:
I'd add on to it. Don't give up. You got this because I think that's what I've learned from working with so many dads over the past 15 years or so is that a lot of dads just give up or they don't feel like they're good enough. And if they can't be perfect, then they don't wanna let their kids down. So that's why they check out and that's why they're not engaged. And they're not there, like Steve's saying, to be there. Don't give up on yourself. You got this.

Michael Ramos [00:24:44]:
And, yes, be there. It'll all come. And make the mistakes. It's okay to make the mistakes. We all do. That's called being human. It has nothing to do with being a father. It has to do with being you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:53]:
Now if people wanna find out more about the book or about either of you, where should they go?

Steven Manchester [00:24:57]:
First and foremost, amazon.com would be the first place that they can go to. So the book's available as an ebook. So we you have the electronic version and it's also print. It's done in print as well. And we have some I don't think it's something we'll talk about today, but we have some big plans for this book to introduce to the masses. And the hope is, again, to Mike's point, whether it be hospitals, prisons, to get this book out in mass where we can make as much impact as possible.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:27]:
A stories, your journey today. I truly appreciate you being here, for sharing your voice, and I wish you both the best.

Steven Manchester [00:25:34]:
Thanks, Chris. We appreciate you.

Michael Ramos [00:25:35]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely, Chris. And thank you for being such an amazing host and making such a comfortable interview.

Steven Manchester [00:25:39]:
And thank you for everything you're doing for the dads out there, Chris. We appreciate that. We really do.
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Building Strong Father-Daughter Bonds with Madeline Anderson
26 août· Dads With Daughters
Discovering the Path to Better Father-Daughter Relationships

In a recent episode of the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Madeline Anderson, author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. Madeline shared insights and stories from her book and personal life, shedding light on the unique and impactful father-daughter relationship. Below, we delve into the highlights of their conversation and explore how her insights can help fathers strengthen their bonds with their daughters.

The Genesis of "Girl Dad"

Madeline Anderson, inspired by the unique and nurturing relationship with her father, set out to write *Girl Dad*. She recognized that her bond with her dad was rare and wanted to share the principles that made their relationship special. The book is a culmination of her personal experiences and interviews with various fathers and daughters. The key lesson: making life fun and enjoyable for daughters from a young age can build strong, lasting relationships.

Understanding the Importance of Small Moments

A recurring theme in Madeline’s book is the impact of small, consistent gestures over grandiose acts. During the podcast, she shared touching stories from daughters who cherished simple, heartfelt actions from their fathers. For instance, one father left a note in his daughter's freezer that she found after he moved her into college. Such acts of love and thoughtfulness resonate deeply, often becoming treasured memories.

Building Lifelong Friendships

Madeline emphasized the importance of fathers not only as authority figures but as friends. By making activities enjoyable and relating to their daughters' interests, fathers can cultivate friendship and trust. She shared an anecdote about her father building a playhouse in their attic, complete with a rock wall entry. This creative and fun project strengthened their bond, underpinning the larger message of her book—having fun together can transform the father-daughter relationship.

Embracing Your Authentic Self

Madeline also discussed the importance of fathers remaining true to themselves. Instead of sacrificing their interests, fathers should incorporate their daughters into their world. If a father enjoys hiking, for instance, taking his daughter along can create shared experiences and memories. When daughters feel included in their father's life, they are more likely to share their own worlds in return.

The Power of Understanding

Madeline urged fathers to prioritize understanding their daughters at an individual level. Simple practices like sharing "roses and thorns" of the day can open channels of communication and provide insights into their daughters’ lives. By knowing her highs and lows, fathers can support their daughters more effectively and build deeper connections.

Balancing Work and Family

Madeline spoke about her father's ability to balance a demanding work schedule while maintaining a close relationship with his daughters. She admired his ability to integrate his work world with his family life, showcasing that with some creativity and effort, work commitments need not overshadow family time. This approach can provide daughters with positive role models and inspire them in their own professional pursuits.

The Birth of Girl Dad Network

Expanding on her book’s mission, Madeline is launching the Girl Dad Network, an online community offering resources, mentorship, and a platform for fathers to connect and learn from one another. This network will feature monthly meetings, courses tailored by age group, gift guides, and resources for both fathers and daughters—intending to be a comprehensive support system for "girl dads" everywhere.

The conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Madeline Anderson illuminated the profound impact of conscious and loving fatherhood on daughters. Madeline's work serves as a reminder that it’s the little things that often matter the most. By being genuine, involving daughters in their passions, understanding their needs, and balancing work and family life, fathers can build meaningful and lasting relationships with their daughters.

For more resources, fathers can visit the Girl Dad Network at girldadnetwork.com or explore Madeline’s book, *Girl Dad*, available through Amazon. As underscored by Dr. Lewis, dads don’t need to be perfect; they just need to be present, engaged, and open to the journey of fatherhood.

Remember, every small gesture counts, and every day is an opportunity to build a stronger bond with your daughter.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down and talk to you. I say this every week, but it's so true because I learn from you as much as I'm hoping that you're learning from the people that we have on, the resources that we're sharing to help you be that dad that you wanna be to your daughters. And every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests, different people with different experiences. Last week, you had an opportunity to meet Kekoa and Madeline Anderson. They both were on. I love having fathers and daughters on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]:
And I introduced you to the fact that Madeline is the author of a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we didn't really talk a lot about that book. But let me give you a little more context. So Madeline is an author and entrepreneur. She's got a passion for neuroscience, psychology, writing, and speaking. She's the daughter of a girl dad. We met him last week. And he's a father of 3 daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]:
So he's got a lot of experience in that. And over a number of years, she spent over a number of years, she had the opportunity to interview a wide array of fathers and daughters to write this book about how you can be the best dad that you can be to your daughters. It really fits in well with the podcast and what we do in fathering together. So I'm really excited to have her back again this week to talk more about this journey that she's been on to be able to help dance and to learn a little bit more about what she learned in that process as well. Madeleine, thanks so much for being back again this week.

Madeline Anderson [00:02:02]:
Thank you so much for having me, Christopher. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]:
Well, I am excited to have you back. And it was so fun having your dad on last week and learning about the journey that the both that both of you were on. And I love some of the stories that he was sharing and some of the stories you were sharing about golfing and being able to, be that multi sport, fed into this book. But I I guess I wanna go back to the genesis because you're not a mother. You're not a father. You're writing a book, though, about being a great dad to daughters, and I think that has to have come from what we heard last week in the relationship that you have with your own father. But give me some of the genesis of what made you decide that you wanted to spend the time, the effort to interview all these people, to gain all this insight, and then put this book out into the world.

Madeline Anderson [00:02:54]:
So I wrote this book because I have an incredible relationship with my dad. And, obviously, y'all heard that on the last podcast, but I had no idea how rare our relationship is. And I really want to change that. So that's the genesis of the book. And it started out with me writing stories with my dad and how he raised me and my 2 younger sisters. But then it turned into so much more than that as I started interviewing both dads and daughters from all over, like you mentioned. And I think it's really a culmination of their stories, lessons, and advice that really shine throughout the book. And the actual moment that I realized I wanted to write the book was actually an interesting one.

Madeline Anderson [00:03:37]:
I was driving in Santa Monica. I could tell you exactly what street I was on and where I was going, but I I just had a thought pop into my head that said, you should write a book called Girl Dad. And like I said, I had always known I had a great relationship with my dad, but this thought just kind of came out of left field. And I've recently read Rick Rubin's book, The Creative Act, A Way of Being. And there was something in it that really stood out to me as relevant to this conversation. And he talked a lot about artists being the vessels for bringing the art or the idea to life and how sometimes ideas just come to you. And you're meant to basically take that idea and put it out into the world. And I really feel that that was the case for girl dad.

Madeline Anderson [00:04:18]:
It felt like a calling that's bigger than me, bigger than my stories, and it was something that I almost had to do because it was so important. And I think that having that daughter perspective is hopefully really helpful for dads because I'm trying to shed light on what we care about, what we want from our dads, and how to have a great relationship with us. So that's kind of the the genesis of Girl Dad, and it's evolving every day. I'm so excited. I'm launching Girl Dad Network very, very soon here, and that'll be an online platform for dads with all kinds of different things, like community and monthly live meetings with me, resources for the dads, resource for the daughters. Just kind of a full, all encompassing girl dad takes me takes me and how many people this message reaches.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:11]:
You know, one of the things that you said in the past podcast was that and and you reflected that just a moment ago where you talked about how rare it was for you to realize the relationship between you and your dad was not the norm. And you realized that in college when you interacted with other women that didn't have that same relationship. Talk to me about that and what you were hearing from some of these other women about the relationships they did not have. And what were those women telling you about what they wished that relationship was and what was missing in that relationship?

Madeline Anderson [00:05:49]:
Yeah. It started the day that I moved in, and I lived in a dorm with I think it was there's 8 of us. So it was a 2 bedroom dorm with I know, I guess it was 6 of us. There was 2 bedrooms, 3 people in each bedroom, 1 bathroom, kind of a tough situation, but my dad helped me move in and he was there. He was so supportive. We grabbed dinner afterwards, the way he was helping me set up and everything. And then all 5 of the other girls were just there in awe. They didn't have a dad who was helping them move in.

Madeline Anderson [00:06:19]:
And I definitely took it for granted. It was like, you know, move in day course he's coming. That's what he does. Like, you know, he's just always there for me. And so it was, that was the first moment. And then after he left, they had told me a lot about that. Like, wow, I can't believe your dad did that. That was so nice of him.

Madeline Anderson [00:06:34]:
And I I really wish my dad would care for me like that. And and then obviously throughout college, I met ton of other girls who also had either no relationship with their dad or a very negative relationship. And they would say, you know, they hate their dad. You know, just really things that make my skin crawl a little bit and it and it hurts my heart, but it basically, it became very obvious to me that I had something very special And I always knew he was amazing, but I didn't realize how rare our relationship was.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:01]:
So you spent all this time, and you started kinda deconstructing the relationship that you had with your own father. And as you were looking at that, what were some of the big points, some of the things that really stood out to you that were unique in your relationship that you weren't seeing in some of the other relationships around you?

Madeline Anderson [00:07:21]:
I think it probably tends to start from a young age. And looking back to when me and my sisters were young, one thing he did consistently was make life fun. So he would just put himself in our shoes and try to make every situation fun for us. And by having fun with him, we became more than, you know, just a father daughter dynamic. We became friends. And so we've kind of built that friendship over the years. We're still great friends and he's also my dad and I'm also his daughter, you know, that you can be both. And I think that's one thing that really became clear throughout my adulthood and reflecting on these stories and talking with my younger sisters and trying to think back, okay, What was that thing dad did with us? You know? It's like the common theme is we had so much fun, and nothing was, like, too crazy or such a rare idea.

Madeline Anderson [00:08:12]:
It was all just, like, being silly or just hanging out with us and making us feel special. And one thing that comes to mind is he built us this playhouse, and it was just the coolest thing ever. He we had an attic, and so he transformed that attic into our playhouse. And he's super handy. So he did all the insulation and put in wood floors in the attic. And then what he did is he cut a hole in the top of our closet, and then he built a rock wall. And we were helping him throughout the process. So I have photos of me with little mask on up in the attic, and we went to REI and got the rock wall pieces and helped decide, okay, this one should go here.

Madeline Anderson [00:08:48]:
This is here. And then it became this epic playhouse where you had to crawl up a rock wall in the closet to get to this playhouse. And we called it Club Wahini because he was born in Hawaii and we would draw on the walls. And every time our friends would come over, they would sign the wall And we would be up there for hours and hours, like, every day, every weekend, we had sleepovers up there. And it was just such a fun thing that he did. And he just he thought of it because he's creative, and he's always thinking about, oh, how can we make this fun? He's he's just really good at turning any situation into something that you wanna be a part of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:24]:
So beyond what you were learning specifically about the relationship between you and your dad because by taking a clinical approach to taking a look at the relationship, it's a it it kinda sets makes you have to step back and look from a macro view versus the micro view that you grew up in. But then you went beyond that, and you started to talk to other fathers, daughters about their relationships. What did you learn what did you start learning from those conversations that was eye opening for you as you were preparing and collecting all this data that would eventually be written in your book?

Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]:
The first thing that comes to mind is when I interviewed all the daughters, the same theme kind of kept coming up, which is it's all the little things that matter. Like, no daughter said, oh, you know, my dad is really special because on my birthday, he got me this, like, nice purse or, you know, something like big. It's all these little micro moments that add up over time. And funny enough, I had 2 daughters talk a long time, and it was like their favorite story about handwritten notes. One of them was a daughter who her dad helped her move into college as well. And their thing growing up was they would eat ice cream together on the couch. And so when he was moving in, he wrote on a little piece of paper, I wish I was eating. I was here eating ice cream with you and he put it in her freezer.

Madeline Anderson [00:10:50]:
And then that night when he left, she was feeling all sad and she went to go get some ice cream and she saw that note there. And she said she started crying, and it was so special. And she's moved multiple times since then. And she told me she's brought the note with her every time and puts it in her freezer. And it's so funny how it's just this simple note. That was only a few words. Right? But it meant the world to her. And then the second example was one of the daughters that I interviewed, she when she was going off to college, she was having a lot of anxiety.

Madeline Anderson [00:11:19]:
She has always kind of had a lot of anxiety, struggled with that. And she's grown up really close to home, doesn't like to leave home. And her college was in a different state. It was a flight away. And she was ultimately deciding that she didn't wanna go anymore because she couldn't handle it. And so her dad wrote her the kindest note just outlining how he's so proud of her, how she can do this, he'll be with her every step of the way, and just made her feel like she was capable. And so she ended up going to college at this school that was far away. She brought the note with her.

Madeline Anderson [00:11:50]:
She put it in her backpack. She said she took it to every single class, and she felt a sense of comfort just knowing that that note was in her backpack. It was almost as if her dad was there in her presence. And she also told me that she has that note still today even though she's past graduation and everything. And she said it's all kind of crumpled up and, like, it looks old, but she said she'll keep it forever. So I think those are two powerful stories that just go to show you that it's just these little micro moments that means so much to us daughters. And at the end of the day, we just wanna feel loved. We wanna feel seen and heard and special.

Madeline Anderson [00:12:25]:
And there's lots of ways to do that, but it could be as simple as a really genuine smile just like every day or a handwritten note or a big hug. Like, there's just these things that matter so much to us, and it's it's not rocket science necessarily, but it takes getting to understand us as individuals and what we need from our dads, to feel supported and loved.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:49]:
So you collect all this data. And as someone that went through a doctorate program and wrote a dissertation, I know what that's like, and especially qualitative data when you're pulling all kinds of stories together, and you're trying to figure out some type of semblance of order to all of this and putting it into thematic areas that make sense. Talk to me about some of the high level learning pieces that people are going to find as they go through this book and some of the main points that you are trying to put out there into the world. Not that you have to give away every secret because we want people to read the book, but what are some of the high level areas and things that you really are delving deeper into into in the book itself?

Madeline Anderson [00:13:32]:
Yeah. I think the first thing that I I would say is that it's a very positive book. I want dads to read this and to close it and be like, let's go. I'm so happy that I have a daughter. I'm so excited depending on what age level she's at. I'm so excited for her journey to raise her, but I really want people to have fun with it. And I think that plays into one of the first themes and takeaways, which is to don't stop being you. And I think it's an important one because I want you to be the happiest version of yourself because when you're happy, you're usually a better father, a better husband.

Madeline Anderson [00:14:06]:
It all starts with not taking away the things that you love. But this book, a lot of my, the, the stories and the themes throughout it talk about not giving those things up, but then in finding ways to include your daughter in them. And I think, you know, when you include her in your world, she will let you into hers. It might happen over time, especially as she gets older, but it pays dividends by making her feel like she's a part of your life and your passions. So I would say that's a that's a big one. Another takeaway would be getting to know your daughter and the importance of that and figuring out how to know your daughter. And there's some great tips in there like plain roses and thorns, which is basically asking her her rose of the day and her thorn of the day. So like a highlight of the day and something that maybe issue wish went differently and how powerful those conversations can be because she might be holding on to something and not going to speak up about it.

Madeline Anderson [00:15:05]:
But if you give her the floor and you say, what was your thorn of the day? Then maybe something will come up. Something's going on at school or she's having an argument with a friend and it's really weighing on her. And she might not say anything. But when you give her the microphone and you show her that you're there to support her, you might learn a lot. And same thing goes with the positive side too. You might learn some of her passions that you didn't recognize. So that's another big one. And then I talk a lot about work and life.

Madeline Anderson [00:15:32]:
And I think that's a big talking point for me, especially with my dad. He did such a good job of including me in his world with work. And so I never felt like my dad was spending too much time on work and not enough time with the family, even though he spends a ton of time on work. But I look at it as, wow. He's so amazing, so inspired by him. I hope to be as hardworking as him, and I don't look at as look at it as, you know, a negative or something that's taken away from me and my time. So I think there's a lot of tips on all three of those. There's plenty of, you know, tips on other things as well, but I would say those are some of the highlights.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:09]:
Now you talked about some of the things that you're planning to do. And as I'm sure going through college, moving into your career, this probably was not on your on your entrepreneurial journey of thinking that this was what you were going to hang your hat on and to put out into the world and to engage fathers in this way. So talk to me about where you are today, where you're going. You talked a little bit about that at the beginning, but let's talk about it again. I'd like to go a little deeper on that and what your hope is for what people are gonna take out of this book and to either take their own relationship to the next level or what that means, but share that with me as well.

Madeline Anderson [00:16:49]:
So got a lot of exciting things in the works. I think my biggest focus right now is Girl Dad Network, building that out. So there's going to be some programs which are like courses depending on age level of the daughters. There's going to be monthly calls with me where it'll be a live call with me and like anyone in the community who wants to join. And I think that will be a really powerful piece because we'll be able to dive into things that are going on in in the relationship and how to amend things or how to prepare for, you know, certain stages of life. And I'll go over different topics as well and really excited for that piece. And then you've got the community side, being able to communicate with other fathers who are in similar situations or have daughters of the same age. There'll be events live and virtual.

Madeline Anderson [00:17:35]:
Let's see. There's resources for the dads. I'm really excited about the gift guide actually because I'm building that with other daughters. So they can just go on there, add to cart, make it super easy for them. And it's all from the daughter's perspective once again. So they know, okay, if this is something that the daughters would want, then it's probably, very relevant. And then there's also resources for the daughter. So I'm building out, like, a mentorship program for the daughter, job board, and a college prep program as well.

Madeline Anderson [00:18:03]:
So just wanted to be a one stop shop for the dads, everything girl dad related. How can they have a great relationship with their daughter? How can they set their daughter up for success? It's an online community. So it's, yeah, that's my main focus right now. Super excited about that. And then I would say the second part of it is speaking. I'm doing a lot more speaking events and been really, really loving that. I think my main focus is just getting out in front of as many dads as possible, whether that be through the book, through the speaking, through the community, and just being able to make an impact on fathers and daughters and future generations. So that's my passion.

Madeline Anderson [00:18:39]:
And, yeah, I'm really looking forward to seeing where it takes me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:41]:
So if people are interested in finding out more about the network, about the book, where should they go?

Madeline Anderson [00:18:47]:
Yeah. So for the network, girldadnetwork.com. And for the book, girl dad the book dot com. It's also on Amazon, but there's a link through the website as well if that's easier.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:57]:
And we'll put links in the notes today for all of you to be able to find this, to be able to go out, grab the book, and be able to learn from the book, from the father and daughter relationships that are in the book. You're definitely not going to wanna miss this, and you're going to want to learn from this journey that not only that Madeleine has been on with her own dad, but also the journeys of all these fathers and daughters because it's really important to be able to take in all of this, like we talk about every week on the show, and be able to be open to learning, to be open to the journey, and know that you don't have to be a perfect dad. But there are things that you can do to be able to set up some building blocks that will help you to be the dad that you want to be. So I just want to say thank you, Madeleine, for making this a passion area for yourself, for working with fathers in so many different ways, for putting this out into the world. And I wish you all the best.

Madeline Anderson [00:19:48]:
Thank you, Christopher. It's an honor to be here, and I appreciate everything that you're doing for all the dads out there as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:54]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.

Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.
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Raising Independent Women: Lessons from Kekoa and Madeline Anderson
19 août· Dads With Daughters
Fatherhood is a multifaceted journey laden with challenges, joys, fears, and triumphs. On the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome a special duo—Kekoa Anderson and his daughter, Madeline Anderson author of Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads & Their Daughters. Their insightful conversation unveils the essence of father-daughter relationships, the intricacies of raising daughters, and the profound impact of intentional parenting.

The Initial Excitement and Overwhelming Responsibility

When asked about the first moment he realized he was going to be a father to a daughter, Kekoa Anderson recalled it as an overwhelmingly positive time. He highlighted the sudden surge of responsibility that came with the birth of his daughter. This initial moment of excitement quickly paved the way for a lifelong journey of learning and adaptation.

Kekoa described fatherhood as a process of evolving fears and challenges. From protecting an innocent little girl to dealing with the complexities of adolescence, each stage brought new hurdles. However, the underlying theme remained the same: the importance of being present and proactive in his daughters' lives.

Developing Unique Relationships

One of the key points discussed in the podcast was the necessity of building unique relationships with each child. Kekoa emphasized the importance of recognizing each daughter’s individuality. He talked about creating bonds through shared interests like work and golf, which allowed him to engage with each daughter uniquely. Madeline fondly recounted her memories of being included in her father's work and the significant role golf played in their relationship.

Guiding Through Challenges and Building Confidence

Madeline also shared an insightful story that illustrated how her father's confidence in her abilities played a crucial role in shaping her self-esteem. At just 16, Kekoa entrusted her with attending a pre-proposal meeting, a task that seemed daunting at first but ultimately empowering. This experience, among many others, instilled in Madeline a sense of confidence and independence that she carries with her into adulthood.

Kekoa explained his approach to parenting as one that focuses on guiding his daughters to the answers rather than giving them directly. This method built their confidence and equipped them with problem-solving skills essential for their future endeavors.

Cherishing the Journey

One of the most compelling parts of the conversation was the mutual respect and admiration between Kekoa and Madeline. Madeline expressed her awe at her father's thoughtful and supportive nature. She highlighted how the realization of her unique father-daughter relationship dawned on her during college when she noticed the absence of such bonds in her peers' lives.

Kekoa, in turn, shared how reading Madeline's book “Girl Dad: Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters” was a reflective experience for him, reminding him of the many special moments they shared and the lessons they both learned.

Advice for Fathers

The episode concluded with the "Fatherhood 5," where both guests shared their insights and advice. Madeline stressed the importance of showing up and understanding your daughter. Knowing her passions, love language, and personality can significantly enhance the father-daughter relationship. Kekoa added the wisdom of enjoying the journey and not rushing through the moments. He likened it to the gentle pace necessary in a game of golf, emphasizing the importance of taking your time and appreciating each step of the way.
The conversation with Kekoa and Madeline Anderson on the “Dads with Daughters” podcast encapsulates the essence of fatherhood. It’s an ever-evolving journey that requires patience, understanding, and the willingness to grow alongside your children. Kekoa’s stories and Madeline’s reflections offer valuable lessons for all fathers striving to build strong, supportive, and empowering relationships with their daughters. As Dr. Christopher Lewis often reiterates, fatherhood is a journey for life—a journey best traveled with love, patience, and an open heart.
TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being on this journey with you. We have an opportunity every week to be able to to to work through this journey that you're on with your daughter. And every week, I love being able to be on this journey. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I have the opportunity to be able to learn and grow just like you are from the guests that we have on the show because it is a constant journey that we are all on. No matter if you have infants or if you have college age or if you have kids that are grown and flown out of the house and living their own life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]:
No matter what it is, you're still gonna be growing as a father, And your relationship with your daughters are going to change over that time. So it's important. It's important to keep learning, important to stay open to learning. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have gone through this journey in different ways. We have dads, we have daughters, we have lots of people with lots of different resources. And this week we got 2 great guests with us. I am always excited when I get to have a father and a daughter on. And this week, we do have that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]:
We have father Kekoa Anderson, and daughter, Madeline Anderson, with us today. And Madeline and I got introduced because Madeline recently wrote a book called Girl Dad, Stories, Lessons, and Advice from Girl Dads and Their Daughters. And we'll talk a little bit about that and this. And I think we may even have this into a 2 parter. So we'll talk more in-depth about the book as well as what she learned. But today, we're gonna be talking a lot about their relationship and what led Madeleine to writing this book as well. So I'm really excited to have them on. Kikoa, Madeleine, thanks so much for being here today.

Kekoa Anderson [00:01:56]:
Thank you very much.

Madeline Anderson [00:01:57]:
Thank you for having us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time, Kikoa, and I'm gonna have you start here today. So I wanna go back to that first moment, that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter, what was going through your head?

Kekoa Anderson [00:02:11]:
Exciting times years ago. So, you know, going back to the time in my life, it was a great time in life. Just having been married for a number of years and dating my wife for some time. You know, that was the height of everything where life was all in front of me. So when that came, that was just kind of the first step of having a child. And my wife and I both wanted to be surprised, so we didn't know the sex of Madeleine at the time. So it was, you know, one of those things. And that day was just kind of life changing when all of a sudden this responsibility little package popped out and it was like really overwhelming, extremely positive way.

Kekoa Anderson [00:02:47]:
Reflecting back on that time was interest growing up and being a civil engineer and structural engineer and all the mechanics that are associated with that and testing everything, this was something where you could have a baby and walk out of the hospital and they just basically say, like, good luck. And there's no test, there's no form. It was an interesting time at that birth. So being ready for it, it's like, no, I was not ready for it. Nobody is. You just hear the stories from everybody. And so leaving that out, that was certainly a very exciting time. And then all of a sudden you realize, oh, I got a lot of work to do.

Kekoa Anderson [00:03:20]:
What's my plan and what's my path forward?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:22]:
You know, I talk to a lot of dads that talk about that moment when you're walking out of the hospital and they're they're especially if it's a first child, but also a your first daughter of this sense of heaviness that sets on you and the weight of being a father, but also of being a father to a daughter. And that there's some fear that goes along with that too. What would you say is was your biggest fear in raising a daughter?

Kekoa Anderson [00:03:45]:
It's almost like the from the little age, the fragileness and safety issue and kind of being there for him and, and the responsibility of like, of taking care of that life at that little time. It was, you know, that was the frightening part where, you know, it wasn't necessarily frightening, but it was just something that kind of came up on top. And then as you go through that, then those things change from protecting a helpless innocent little girl to then seeing her interact with certain situations, everything from preschool to kindergarten, where they had little discuss and there's little issues, which are easy solves at that time to when, you know, you move up into the junior high, high school range, and, you know, they start dating different guys, you know, then it becomes there's another kind of sense of where's the manual for this? And how do I interact with them and protect them guide them at the same time, give them the freedom to learn and choose and not be overwhelming. So you know, that very dynamic and changing all the way through it. So So now that you're interviewing me with an older daughter having gone through that, maybe I didn't answer the specific area. But, you know, that's kind of the from the start to where we were today, maybe in the summary.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:50]:
And, Madeline, when you hear that, what goes through

Madeline Anderson [00:04:52]:
your head? I'm just sitting here in awe. I mean, I know we've talked so much about our relationship and I interviewed him throughout the whole girl dad process, but I feel like every time I hear how he thinks and what's going through his head, it just reminds me of how many thoughts there are, how thoughtful he is, and just how incredible of a dad he is. But I think, yeah, as far as the fears and everything, I'm sitting here kind of imagining myself going through that with my own kids one day as well. And recognizing that, yeah, there's not just one big fear. I think you answered that really well, dad. It's it really evolves throughout time and changes depending on the age and the time of life and what's kinda going around them at the time. So I'm sure a lot of dads out there can relate to that as well.

Kekoa Anderson [00:05:37]:
Yeah. And it's it wasn't really so much fear. It was probably kind of the wrong word. It was just kind of a when I reflect back on it, it wasn't the number of fearful steps. It was just the situations came up. You weren't in fear waiting for it to happen. It just happened and you had to react. So it's like, how do you react when reactions are necessary?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:55]:
And I'll say it. I mean, and fear doesn't end. There are going to be things in life even when your child is out of the house and they are living their own life, that you can still be fearful or you can still have concerns. And but you have to temper those concerns and understand that your child is an adult. And how do you deal with that now, Kikoa, as you see Certainly

Kekoa Anderson [00:06:17]:
Certainly no fear of that, but there's, like, the worries and stuff. As I know, I feel very confident in her abilities to manage and take care of herself even from the safety issues to the work related elements to the financial side. Those, you know, at this level, it's nice. It's that's certainly a comfortable area where you can kinda boost control with that element instead of have to worry about it. But when challenges come up, certainly, you're there to go through those fears collectively and communicate them throughout. I still, as she's taken a trip to some area, I'm giving her extra fatherly advice on don't go to these parts and stay away from this or avoid that. And she probably doesn't wanna hear that. And she already knows anyway.

Kekoa Anderson [00:07:01]:
But it's also it's good just to throw those things out there. So those little bullet points are in her head. Head. I always do that, maybe overdo that too, which maybe is a negative, but, you know, it's my role. I have to do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]:
You're always gonna be a dad. That does not stop. No matter what and how old your child is, you'll still be a father and you're still gonna be engaged in many different ways. Now, every parent and then child are able to develop unique relationships, and there's things that really define that for themselves. Especially if you have multiple kids, you have to have those unique relationships with multiple kids. But when you have that relationship with your daughter, you're going to be developing it in your own way. Madeleine, for you, as you think about the relationship that you have with your dad and how that's evolved over the years, what's been some of the favorite things that you and your dad share together that you've appreciated most as you have gone through this relationship?

Madeline Anderson [00:07:51]:
Yeah. I would say to come to mind first. There's plenty of similarities and things that we bond over, but I would say the first one would be work. I was brought to my dad's work on the weekends when I was a kid, really enjoyed those moments. And he's always made me feel really included in his role and his job. And so I always understood when he was working, what he was doing, and it never felt like he was taking time away from me and my sisters. It felt like, oh, he's working. He's motivated.

Madeline Anderson [00:08:21]:
He's someone who we should be inspired by. So I always looked up to him in that sense. And then as I grew, I would always call him for work advice or business advice and we love bouncing ideas off one another or brainstorming things for work. So it's something that could be dry, but it's actually really fun for both of us, I think. And we have really great conversations around work and drive and what's next and game planning and goal setting and all of those kinds of things. And then number 2 would be golf. And that was something that my dad introduced to me as a young girl by just taking me to the course with him when he played with his friends. And at the time I didn't play, I just would sit there and count the bunnies and watch the wildlife and just enjoy myself in the cart.

Madeline Anderson [00:09:06]:
And finally, when I was old enough to maybe swing a club, I got a little snoopy set. It was a driver and a putter and one iron. And that was really fun for me because I felt included in the sport. And now, you know, he could take me with his friends and I could hit every now and then, and it made me feel like I was a part of the team. And then fast forward to high school, I tried out for the high school team and made that. And so I played throughout high school and he was always there guiding me. He would show up to my matches and had some fun little like one liners like roll it and hold it. And I'm forgetting some of the others, but there was some good life lessons.

Kekoa Anderson [00:09:39]:
From another.

Madeline Anderson [00:09:40]:
Yeah. Well, there's just some good life lessons in golf because it takes a lot of patience and we have to think about every stroke matters. Drive for show, putt for dough. That was another one you said. And it's just every stroke matters. You can't take what just happened in the past and apply it to the future. You have to take every single hit individually. And so having him there throughout that chapter was amazing.

Madeline Anderson [00:10:03]:
And now as an adult, I love going home and playing golf with my dad or trying to find a new course to play out with him. So that's been a really fun bonding experience that we still get to enjoy as adults and both work and golf, I suppose, that started when I was a young girl.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:20]:
And what about you, Kikoa? What were some of the things that you appreciated most in that building of the relationship and the things that you shared together?

Kekoa Anderson [00:10:27]:
That really makes my life takes me to that extra level. Like, if I didn't have a daughter or didn't have that area, like, how my life would be different. And definitely with 3 daughters, there was a lot of different uniqueness with each one and what we did. But specifically, I think some of the successes that really made my life more expanding was to include her in those things. With the work like one she talked about, you know, we've done a lot of different projects together. We kind of create the projects to work together on. And, you know, at a little age for her visiting the office and coming in and coloring and drawing on plan sets, you know, as an engineer and like developing bridges, we had all kinds of big sheets of paper. So that was a canvas to colour on, which was fun.

Kekoa Anderson [00:11:10]:
But at the same time, she got to kind of see, you know, what was all engaged. And there was a lot of neat things from the computers to the printers to even the old drafting elements that was kind of unique, you know, from the work and I think that helped guide her in some of the areas that she liked. But, you know, golf outside activity is an excellent sport to play with all 3 of my daughters and even my wife. It's just being out in nature and walking. Like I said, in the early age, it wasn't about her trying to outdrive her sister, that type of thing. It was like riding in the cart. You know, they wanted to drive the car, play with the bunnies, go to the lake and fish out golf balls or things more so. But then over time, it kind of grew.

Kekoa Anderson [00:11:49]:
So that walk together was really, you have time for conversation, Your daughter actually beats you on poles. So then you have the competition that's, I might drive longer, but she can putt better. So all of a sudden there's these equalizers that so having the competition and you're both trying your hardest is unique, you know, compared to some other sports. So, you know, I think we all enjoyed that time together. But even just the trips and things that we took and having the conversations is really what to understand who everybody is and how they're different and being able to engage in that. You just gotta make time to do that. So the more we did it, the better. And when there's times when we got caught up with other things, it's kind of rebalancing yourself so that you have time for those activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:32]:
You know, one of the questions that I guess that I would ask as a father of multiple daughters, as I said, you have to build those unique relationships. How did you find yourself parenting, fathering each of your daughters in unique ways to be able to build those unique relationships with each of them, as they were all growing?

Kekoa Anderson [00:12:49]:
Yeah. That's a tough one. I mean, that kind of first had a lot of activity. So it was like, here's kind of the spread. So as an engineer, I'm looking at economy of scale. So I want the golf clubs to pass down. So either one's gonna play golf. You know, the ski boots, it's like, hey, Malins went to Meredith, Meredith went to Ella.

Kekoa Anderson [00:13:04]:
And they I kept having 3 girls was awesome from a standpoint of once you kind of have all those upfront costs on the first, you can spread it down. But I think what we did was we were kind of well rounded and did a lot of different activities. So whether it was surfing, skiing, golfing, tennis, soccer, softball, pickleball, there was enough where we did a lot of sports, weren't necessarily experts in 1, but enjoyed the time together. So everybody kind of fell into their place and got to be themselves, you know, through that portfolio of a lot of different activities. Instead, you know, some fathers, maybe it's all soft ball and they only do softball and others might just be soccer and there's club and hockey now. And, you know, so everything's so focused and those coaches want you just to be like all this one sport. And they're always pushing for that for their team and their success. But again, watching the 3, maybe we wanted to make sure that they could go on the ski trip together.

Kekoa Anderson [00:13:58]:
And just because there was, you know, some club soccer team event that they would get in trouble for missing, it was kinda like we had to take that sacrifice so that our family could be together. So we didn't let, you know, one thing dominate, and we kept the portfolio open for the 3 to kinda fall into what worked

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]:
best for them. Now, Madeleine, people can easily hear from you that you have been able you've been bothered in a good way in in regards to helping you to become a independent individual person that is out there living your life, doing good things, and really making a life for yourself ahead of you. And I'll say your parents had a say in that. They helped you in that journey, and you helped yourself in somewhat in that journey too. But I guess as you think back to the things that your father did, the things that he did to be able to help you to become the person that you are today, what were some of the things that really stand out to you that he did for you that really allowed for you to become the woman that you are today?

Madeline Anderson [00:14:58]:
The influence is certainly there. I think there's a couple of stories that come to mind, but I really liked what he said about the multiple sports. And I think that kind of mentality of, like, you can do whatever, find your passions, you know, it wasn't forced upon us, but we ended up like, I really enjoyed soccer and golf and my little sister, the littlest one, she found her passion in art. And I think throughout all of us kind of finding our own lane, obviously both my parents, my dad specifically has been so supportive and once once we kind of define what that lane is, he's really good about offering support and advice and kind of guiding us through that journey. But I think another thing is just that belief in me and my sisters and our capabilities. And one story that comes to mind is when I was 16, I just got my driver's license and my dad woke me up and he was like, Madeline, I'm double booked for a meeting. I'm I'm gonna need you to fill in for me. I was like, What do you mean? And he said, it's a pre proposal meeting. It's no big deal. You're gonna go there. You've got this. You just need to meet with everyone, give them your business cards, But first you need to understand if they're a landscape architect or an engineer. If they're an engineer politely, and the conversation move on, go to the next person, hopefully they're a landscape architect, then you give them your business card. And so I went to this pre proposal meeting. I was the youngest person by probably 30 years and one of the only women.

Madeline Anderson [00:16:20]:
And I had enough call, like probably too much confidence. And I just walked around and I was like, hi, would chat with somebody, found out they're a landscape architect, and then I would give them my business card. And then afterwards when I came home, even I was like, great job. Okay. Now follow-up with them. And I was like, what? So he taught me, he guided me through that whole process, but in doing so he gave me so much confidence in my abilities and put me in an uncomfortable situation, but told me that I was going to be great and could do it. And I think throughout that process, I learned how to be confident in my work and I'm sure that's just one example, but there's been so many throughout, especially high school and college where he's really just been there for me and, has guided me to feel confident about what I'm doing. So I I think that that's really translated into my adulthood and kind of how I do what I do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:09]:
Thank you, Coop. Were there any other things that you intentionally tried to do with your daughters to be able to instill that in them, whether they accepted it or not?

Kekoa Anderson [00:17:19]:
Well, definitely, yeah. I mean, the whole point of challenging them to build their confidence is not giving them the answer to the question, but a number of questions to get to the answer. And through that path of finding those was part of that success of building the confidence. I think that was one area. You know, always look at a way to bait them into thinking through the process. And for example, if you go into that pre proposal meeting, I'm an engineer. We do the bridges. So we were looking we didn't need to meet them.

Kekoa Anderson [00:17:47]:
They're our competitors. We wanted to look at the ones that we could partner with. So her, you know, and it was low hanging fruit. If she messed up, it wasn't gonna change our outcome, but it was just a benefit. There wasn't the pressure of her having her having to fail. It was just giving her a chance to succeed. I mean, that step of kind of seeing if she could figure out a way to figure out who's the engineer, who's a landscape architect, because we wanted those landscape architects on our team. And if she messed up and actually got an engineer, we could've worked through that issue.

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:14]:
So, again, it was setting them up with a challenge and let them get their hands dirty and figure it out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:19]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where we ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into typically, it's the dad, but today, we're gonna be doing both of you. And so first and foremost, Madeline, in one word, what is fatherhood?

Madeline Anderson [00:18:34]:
I wanna say either guidance or support.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:36]:
Kekoa.?

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:37]:
Yeah. One word. That's a tough one. It's just kinda like it's life for me. It's like, hey. That's I'm a father. So that's a tough one. But it's definitely that walk.

Kekoa Anderson [00:18:45]:
It makes everything fatherhood is who I am. It's awesome. Love it. I can't imagine not being it and not having that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:51]:
Now, Madeleine, when was the time that you felt that your dad finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Madeline Anderson [00:18:57]:
I feel like the the finally is throwing me off because I think I grew up just with the understanding that he's a great dad to daughters. I don't know that there was ever a moment that it hit me. Oh, well, you know what? Actually, I will say when I went to college, that's when I really realized how amazing my dad is because I realized how rare that relationship is. And I might've taken it for granted, to be honest. And when I realized that a lot of the women around me did not have great relationships with their dads and they couldn't believe how close me and my dad are, that really shook me. And so, yeah, that would be probably the moment that I realized he has always been a great dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:34]:
and Kekoa?

Kekoa Anderson [00:19:35]:
Yeah. I mean, I think the success of being a father is is it's never over. It's, like, endless. So it's you're only as good as your last success. But some of the things where you know, I saw, you know, pivotal points and like, certainly like graduation and leaving the house. And interesting enough, like Malin writing this book, it was like because a lot of people don't get to talk about it. So then when I first was reading the drafts of that, it was like, you know, goodness, obviously, the things that I had forgotten about a number of things that we had done when she was young and those type of things and really getting her perspective. So if, I mean, if daughters made a list of things that they really appreciated and the dads got to see that, that's awesome.

Kekoa Anderson [00:20:14]:
And, you know, so that was kind of, you know, success by her writing that and me getting to reflect on it. You know, that was, you know, great job, Mandy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]:
Thank you. And, Kikoa, as you think about fatherhood, who inspires you to be a better dad?

Kekoa Anderson [00:20:27]:
Yeah. I mean, that's a tough one too. I I think that my style is I watch and listen a number of people, and whenever I see a good idea or lesson learned, I I take that for myself. So, you know, certainly my father and my wife's father, they were great examples and a lot of family friends. So I kinda used that whole portfolio and sold all the great ideas for myself and step myself up based on what I saw and learned from them. So, but definitely, you know, my own father and my father-in-law were a big inspiration throughout the whole time as they were active with Madeline and the other daughters as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:03]:
Now, both of you have given a number of pieces of advice today, things that any dad could think about. As we finish up today, Madeline, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Madeline Anderson [00:21:15]:
I would say show up for her. And I think the best way to do that is by knowing who she is. So take the time to really understand your daughter, her passions, the way that she thinks, maybe her love language, and then use that information to show up for her the way that she needs because that's gonna look different for every daughter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:33]:
Thank you, Koa.

Kekoa Anderson [00:21:34]:
Yeah. I think make the most of it and kind of, you get to reap all the benefits of it. I think that using golf is kind of one of the discussion items. There was a gentleman told me once, he said, you know, swing slow and accept the extra distance, which I always love that one, but that that's the same type of thing here with the advice for the dad. It's like there's a whole bunch of different moments and don't race to get to one end. Just enjoy the different parts of it and and kinda use that and take that time to engage.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:02]:
Well, I truly appreciate both of you sharing this today. And and I know, Madeleine, we're gonna have you on another episode to talk more about the book. We didn't go go really into the book today. We're gonna tease that out for the next episode that we're going to have with you to be able to delve even deeper into this learning of talking to all of these different fathers and not only kind of taking the the experience that you had with your own dad, but but going even deeper than that and talking to many other fathers about their own experiences. So I really appreciate you both sharing your journey and for sharing that with other dads, and I wish you both the best.

Kekoa Anderson [00:22:40]:
Thank you very much.

Madeline Anderson [00:22:41]:
Thank you, Christopher. Really appreciate you having us on today.

Kekoa Anderson [00:22:44]:
Indeed. Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:46]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:35]:
We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.
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Intentional Parenting: Jason Frishman on Equitable Fatherhood and Family Values
12 août· Dads With Daughters
Exploring Values-Driven Fatherhood

In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast we sat down with Dr. Jason Frishman of JourneyMen to delve into vital conversations surrounding fatherhood, societal equity, and the evolving role of dads in modern families. From building equitable homes to redefining traditional masculinity, this episode offered profound insights and practical advice for every father aiming to be more present and effective in their children's lives. Below, we unpack the most compelling segments from their conversation.

The Roots of Social Justice in Family Life

Dr. Jason Frishman shared how his upbringing, influenced by deeply rooted values of equality and social justice, shaped his perspectives on parenting. The lessons he learned from his grandparents and parents about fairness and understanding have become the foundation of how he raises his own children. Jason emphasized that fostering an equitable home environment isn't only a moral obligation; it's essential for nurturing well-rounded, empathetic individuals.

Concerns Over Societal Pressures

One of Jason’s primary concerns lies in the societal pressures that could impact his children's values and character as they grow. He pointed out that while more men are spending time at home, the growth in fatherhood roles hasn't kept pace with these changes. This lag can lead to challenges as men navigate roles they may not be fully prepared for, often under the weight of traditional societal expectations.

Transitioning from Children to Fathers: A Professional and Personal Journey

Jason's professional journey has taken him from working with children to specializing in counseling men and fathers. This shift was driven by his passion for creating positive societal change and challenging the traditional narratives of masculinity. He introduced the concept of "foundational adventures," a counternarrative designed to redefine what it means to be a man and a father in today’s world.

Embracing New Masculinity Narratives

Journeymen, the organization Jason is involved with, seeks to redefine masculinity and fatherhood. By promoting more inclusive partnerships at home, Journeymen encourages fathers to be active, engaged, and supportive partners, paving the way for healthier family dynamics. Jason's personal realization of embedded patriarchal thoughts highlighted the need for continuous growth and change, both individually and collectively.

Values Work as a Beacon for Personal Growth

A crucial part of Jason's message is the role of values in guiding personal growth. He stressed that challenges and conflicts shouldn't be seen as roadblocks but as opportunities for learning and development. For fathers seeking to make meaningful changes, Jason advises starting with a clear vision of what they want their household and relationships to look like, then identifying and overcoming the barriers that stand in their way.

The Universal Chaos of Parenting

Dr. Christopher Lewis underscored that parenting is a shared experience, often chaotic and busy but profoundly rewarding. Likening it to managing a boat full of "tiny screaming passengers," Dr. Lewis emphasized the importance of being actively involved in all aspects of children's lives—from spending quality time, imparting lessons, and preparing meals, to celebrating special moments. This hands-on approach is essential for building strong father-daughter relationships.

A Call to Action for Fathers

Both Dr. Lewis and Dr. Jason Frishman called on fathers to be intentional and present in their children's lives. Jason suggested that being a better father and partner involves becoming a stronger, more grounded individual. Overcoming obstacles requires a clear understanding of one's values and the dedication to addressing what hinders their achievement.

Intentional Parenting: Building Connections and Having Fun

Jason also highlighted the significance of intentionality in parenting. This involves using language consciously, allowing children to have a voice in their upbringing, and ensuring that parenting decisions align with core values. Moreover, he stressed the importance of having fun and enjoying time with family, as these moments create lasting bonds and cherished memories.

The Fatherhood Five: Embracing Connections and Small Gestures

In the 'Fatherhood Five' segment, Jason shared his personal reflections on fatherhood, describing it as fundamentally about connections. He prides himself on the close relationship his sons share and hopes they would describe him as silly, optimistic, and caring. Jason finds inspiration from his sons, wife, parents, and a close group of male friends, and he holds steadfast to the advice of consistently showing love through small, intentional actions.
Dr. Dr. Jason Frishman's insights on the Dads with Daughters podcast offer a compelling vision for modern fatherhood—one rooted in equity, intentionality, and joy. By embracing these principles, fathers can create nurturing environments that foster positive growth and deep connections with their children. To engage more with Jason's work or to access resources on effective fatherhood, visit the Journeymen website or reach out via the contact details provided in the podcast episode.
Dr. Jason Frishman was a part of Sarah Maconachie's book of stories about fathers called Working Dads and Balancing Acts.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Love being able to be on this journey with you, knowing that you know that I've got 2 daughters. I know that you have daughters. And it is a great opportunity for us to walk on this path together because the journey that I am on is not going to be the same journey that you're on, but we have similarities. There are things that we go through that are similar, and we can learn and grow from each other, and we can learn and grow from other fathers that are doing fatherhood in a little bit different way. We can push ourselves to be able to get out of our comfort zone. We can push ourselves to do something different, to be that engaged father, that more present father that we want to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]:
And that's why the show exists. The show exists so that every week, you have an opportunity to take what you're learning and put it into action, to be able to hear from others that have gone before you that are doing fatherhood in a little bit different way, that have different resources that are available to you and can help you in that journey that you're on. So thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being back every week. And I love being able to bring you different guests that are going to be able to help you in different ways. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]:
Jason Frischman is with us today. And Doctor. Frischman is a father of 2 sons, but he also works with men that are struggling to balance work and family and that are working to become more confident, connected, and fully alive. And we're gonna talk about that. We're gonna talk about the journey that he's been on as a father, and I'm really looking forward to talking to him today. Jason, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:02:06]:
Excellent. Thank you so much. I'm really glad and looking forward to our conversation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]:
Well, I'm excited to have you here today as well. And first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back. I know you've got some teenagers in the house right now, and I would love to turn the clock back. I said I did say you had sons. So I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a father to a son. What was going through your head?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:02:29]:
It's a powerful and important question. We didn't find out that the baby was gonna be a son until he was born. And actually his birth story was a really hard one. And so because of everything that was going on, we were planning a home birth and it was all picture perfect and beautiful until it wasn't. And then we wound up in the emergency room at the hospital. And frankly, when I found out he was a boy, that I was having a son, it was the least of my concerns. And we were just so very happy that he was healthy, that my wife was healthy. He fortunately didn't need to spend time in the NICU.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:03:03]:
And so the first and foremost was we have a healthy baby. And the next piece was once it hit that we you know, I had a son. And at that time in my life, working as a psychologist, I worked even then primarily with males, male identifying clients. And so I think when Micah was born, I think I was nonplussed in terms of gender, but I also was like, well, I'm kind of an expert in that, so maybe it'll be easier. Flash forward, it it hasn't been, but that's besides the plight. But the other piece is and this happened more when we had our second son because I think we knew we were only gonna have 2, but having 2 sons, we knew that we have a big responsibility in terms of raising good boys. That is something that I've spent my entire career helping others to do, and it sort of became our turn. And so I think both my wife and I have felt like we were meant to raise good men, and that's why we have 2 sons.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:03:57]:
But we also feel in our risk this responsibility that boys and young men in this culture, they have a lot of work to do. And so we our values and who we are as both humans and parents and friends and etcetera, we wanted our children to be raised a little bit differently. Part of your introduction about, like, parents who do it a little differently. That was a big part of the intention that we have in every developmental stage of our kids' lives.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:23]:
So talk to me about parenting a little differently. How do you define that, and what have you tried to do in your sons' lives to parent differently and to allow for them that that difference to be in their life in that regard?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:04:36]:
Well, I think the first piece, which sounds very simple and yet has always been very challenging and something that we stay aware of is a lot of what we do, we want to be intentional. Intentionality and transparency are 2 of our common values as parents. And so I'll give a good example. Both my wife and I are trained as narrative therapists. And so in the narrative therapy world, language is very important. We believe that language and stories help derive and and drive reality. Right? And so the language that we use, even when our kids were pre verbal, was very intentional. So for example, at the time, when my first born son was was was born, we made the decision that I would continue working and seeing clients and my wife would stay home.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:05:19]:
Now, on the one hand, that is a very typical traditional gender split, but because we are intentional about it, it changed the way we had to talk about what that was like. And so a great example is even when my son was preverbal as an infant, we never used the language of papa's going to work, and we corrected others when they said that. Right? Papa's going to the office. Right? Because saying that I'm going to work, what does that say about my wife who's staying home? Right? And so we were very intentional about the fact that, you know, she was doing more, you know, work if not, you know, as much if not more work than I am. And so we never wanted that language to to build a, a sort of a schema for for our kids where father goes to work, mama stays home. Right? And so intentionality around the language we use, intentionality around, the the products, the the things that we do with our kids, that was always very important. Another another good example is that, you know, I'm big at both of us are big in the food world. I I've been a cook and a chef and I've taught I've used it.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:06:36]:
We've had small businesses with food and, you know, food values are very important to us. And so my wife who has been a a vegetarian since 14, she said, most vegetarians choose to be vegetarian. We're raised as omnivores or carnivores, and we choose to be vegetarian. We chose to raise our kids as vegetarian. And when they showed that they sort of understood the values and the ideas and the morals that we were sharing, then they could make their own choice. And right now, both of my kids have chosen to eat meat. My wife actually has started eating meat, and yet we're very intentional. Like at this point, we only eat meat if we know the farmer.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:07:16]:
And in Vermont, we can do that. But most of the time when we go out, we said tell we we're vegetarian because we can't do it otherwise. So these are sort of mundane but important examples. But in terms of parenting differently, we're very intentional, transparent. We're aware of our language and the language we use, especially around gender with our kids. And then the other part is we're very, like I said, transparent. So my kids have always had a voice. Not that, you know, we're the adults and we're in charge, but my kids have always had a voice in in kind of what we do, how we do it.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:07:53]:
They are able and and comfortable to give me feedback. I ask for it as the parent, as the father. And so sometimes I don't always like that, but it but but I but I always welcome the fact that they can tell me or share with me what I'm doing, how that makes them feel, and what it makes them think about. And it gives them a voice and agency and empowers them to grow into themselves in the boundaries that we as the parents have set.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]:
So talk to me about that intention. And not every father, not every man has gotten to that point where they are doing the same thing or that they are trying or working to build a equitable home in regards to what is happening inside their own home. And we definitely don't see the equity being rewarded from a societal end. So personally, and it may go back to how you were raised, what made you personally decide as a man, as a father, as a husband, that that was important to you and that you wanted to instill that in your own children, and you wanted to break the the societal cycle, let's say, that is out there?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:09:10]:
Wow. That one question we could spend, you know, a lot of time on, but two things. You hit the nail on the head in terms of it does start with my own upbringing and childhood. I would start even with my mother's parents, who've sadly recently both passed away. They were partners in the truest sense of the word. Even as a child, I remember that. The 2 of them sat down and did the taxes together. My grandmother, in a time when that didn't really happen, she was as aware of the money and the investments and that, you know, she was as aware of that, if not more than my grandfather.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:09:43]:
And they were real partners. There's a great story is my grandfather drove me to college when I graduated high school. My parents were working. And I recently asked, I said, was grandma there? Did she go too? And my mom was like, of course, they did everything together. They were real partners. So that was the model I got from my grandparents. My parents, very, very similar. At one point, my mom went back to grad school and said, if y'all wanna eat, you better learn how to cook.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:10:07]:
And my father learned how to cook. And so I always witnessed this sort of working towards equality and working towards an awareness of how we are at home and how the society at large is, and just the strength and courage it takes to do things differently. So that has always been a part of the way I look at the world. And then of course, you know, I I grew up trained as a psychologist. I try I got my master's and my doctorate and was always leaning. I used to joke that as a psychologist, I'm sort of a social worker in psychologist clothing. I have always been someone who looks towards social justice and equality and has been impacted by the inequality and the the sort of oppression and challenges that are led. And then, because of my working with boys and men for so many years, I'm a white man in this culture.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:10:56]:
And having the background that I have, that has all become very prominent. And really, I find it to be one of the most vital issues in our culture today is the level that patriarchy has damaged both men, boys, and subsequently, every you know, families. And so it has become a real passion of mine to work for equality and just intentionality in the way that we use language and and work with gender.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:23]:
So as you think about raising your sons, and as you talked about, you're raising your sons in a different way and challenging them and pushing them and encouraging them in different ways in the way that they are being raised. As you look at your biggest fear in raising them today? When I was young, my mom do you remember the 2? Fear in raising them today?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:11:44]:
When I was young, my mom do you remember the TV show Family Ties? Yep. So when I was young and I was a very liberal, even more so than my parents, progressive kind of thinker, all these things, my mom used to tease me that I was gonna get an Alex P. Keaton furissa. And that's not my worry. I don't think that's gonna happen. But I do worry that the strength and presence of my kids is going to be battered at from a larger society. I mean, we have purposefully, like, you know, my kids have been in a bubble. Like we encourage childhood in a very solid way.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:12:18]:
And we live in a rural town in a small state that is very white. And, you know, we've done our best to expose them to the world, and we talk politics. You know, we share things with them. But I guess my my my, one of my big fears or worries is that when they go out into the world, will they have enough of a solid foundation to stand on when they're hit with much of the mainstream ethos and pathos, you know, frankly. How will they hold up? Now, if the way they say it up to me is any indication, I think we'll be fine. But I do worry sometimes that the the sort of mainstream masculine way of being expectations and roles will beat them down a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:58]:
I appreciate you sharing that. Now I mentioned at the beginning that you work with men and that you are working with them, with individuals that are struggling to balance work and family and be connected and confident and helping them to, as I said, fully alive. Talk to me about how you got into this work and why you decided that working with men and creating journeymen was something that was a passion area and was something that you really wanted to focus on?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:13:31]:
So I've been a therapist. I've been as a psychologist, I've been working for about 25 years, and almost exclusively with boys, men, and families. And when I started my career, I'm naively embarrassed to share that I started my career and said I'm always gonna work with kids because if you're an adult and you're a jerk, it's too late for you. Now that is really naive to say, you know, 25 years later, I'm embarrassed that that was my way of thinking. I was saying that to justify that I love working with kids, but I had my own kids and I really wanted to save my sort of child energy for my kids and the community that we have. So I started working with older men and eventually sort of landed on men and fathers as a way of working. And as that was developing, as I was then specializing in learning and doing a lot of research on masculine psychology and sociology, you know, all of these things. I also simultaneously was going through a change in the narratives that I work with, that I love.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:14:26]:
So you may have heard of the hero's journey. It is a narrative that is sort of ubiquitous in our culture. It's all the the Pixar movies, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, all of these things. I love that narrative. I wrote my dissertation from the metaphor of that narrative, and it probably was 85 to 95% of all of the interventions, questions, and and work that I did was based around a really in-depth learning of the hero's journey. That said, about 15 years ago, something hit me. Part of narrative therapy is this idea of questioning taken for granted stories. So in professional honesty, I had to question my own favorite narrative, the hero's journey.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:15:04]:
Long story short, I actually now feel that although I still love The Hero's Journey, it's actually not complete. And the fact that it is so omnipresent is actually quite damaging to boys and men. And the fact that our primary narrative models tell us that we either have to be epic or legendary in order to be worthy is really troubling and damaging to men who, most men who are going to work and coming home and you know, doing the dishes and things like that. And so the challenge or the the passion part of developing journeyman came from working more and more with men and fathers and finding how powerful that work was. It came from developing a counternarrative to the hero's journey, which I now call foundational adventures. And it came to this idea of like listening to men who, you know, may be super successful at work, but then they come home and they're lost. They come home and they're stuck. They come home and where's my place? There's a fact, a detail that I remember reading somewhere.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:16:01]:
I won't use the exact numbers because I'll get it wrong, but there is a large amount of men who are largely spending more time at home than ever before, which we might think, hey. That's wonderful. And it is. But there's also hasn't been the equal amount of growth and development for father about what to do when they're at home. So that they're staying more at home. Some guys are getting it lucky and doing well and and being real present to their kids. But many men are staying at or or at home more with their kids, but coming at it with the same mindset mentality and social training that we've had for the last 100 years, which means that they're at home more and there's more opportunities to make trouble or mistakes or propagate this sort of mindset. And so the idea for me is that Journeymen was, how do we write new narratives for masculinity and fatherhood that involve and include a partnership at home and honor going and battling dragons or being off at work doing things and really developing deeper, more meaningful stories for men who just like everyone else on the planet, need emotional connections, strong deep depth of relationships, and love, frankly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]:
And talk to me about over the years, you've been doing this journeyman work since 2019 when you started things. And I'm sure over the time and over working with men in this work that you learned a lot more about men, but also more about yourself. And talk to me about that. And what have been some of the biggest takeaways for yourself as a father, a husband, a man that you're putting now into place in your own life and some of the things that you're learning about the work that you're doing and some of the biggest struggles that men are struggling with?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:17:46]:
The front of mind answer around learnings for me personally that I'm learning from the work and then bringing it home and then bring it back to the work deep in it is none of us are done. I think I'm pretty conscientious. I'm pretty aware. You know, all of these things, and I am. And yet recently, my wife and I had a huge argument about something that was very based in sort of sexism, very based in my unwillingness to be open to a partnership, ideal. And frankly, initially, when she said it that way, I was offended. Like, I wasn't open. I do this work every day.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:18:21]:
And, you know, all of a sudden, I'm getting called out for something. And once I breathed, once I, like, let it sort of settle a little bit, it was really powerful for me to say, okay, you're right. Some of this patriarchal thought or dominance based culture, however we wanna talk about it, is so deeply embedded in all of us. And so for me, it's that there's always growth, potential, and possibility. And I've been using this statement a lot both at work and at home, but the magic and the treasure is in the muck. There's this narrative. There's this story in our culture that it'll be good when. As long as I get to blank or once I turn blank, you know, like, once I get to the end, it'll be better.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:19:00]:
And I think there's such a problematic ideology there. And so a lot of it is in the muck, in the marshes, in the trouble. That's where the magic is. That's where the treasure is. And so one of the best learnings that came from that that I bring back to the work at Journeyman is we do a lot of values work. You know, let's learn what's important to us. And I do something called the values compass. It's an exercise where we pick 4 values that are can be visibly expressed, that I can see, right? Not this big ethereal, vague value, but something that is real can be specific.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:19:36]:
And I have the guys pick 4 values that are inherently connected to the goal, the treasure that they're working on. And we put them in a compass. Well, what we've started to talk about in addition to the magic is in the muck is that our values are both the directional points and the steps on your path on your journey and the treasure. So if I'm following my values, number 1, I know the right direction and choices to make. But number 2, if I'm following my values, I'm feeling better. I'm doing better. I'm acting better. So I've actually achieved my goal on the way towards achieving my goal.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:20:14]:
And so that you're always going up and down with that. It's a challenge and it's it's terribly difficult to live your values in the everyday. And so when we're doing it, let's recognize it and say, oh, I found a treasure. I've hit a goal. Now it's time to get back to it because I gotta keep walking. I'm in the muck. Right? And so it's nothing new. It's nothing some it's not an insight that I think I've developed.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:20:34]:
I mean, Buddhists have lots of people have used it forever. I think there's a saying, no mud, no lotus. That's in a saying. Same kind of thing is that our challenges, our arguments, our conflicts are is always an opportunity for growth, and that's where the treasure is.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:47]:
I love that. And I love that statement because I think you're completely right. I mean, there is a lot of muck that we go through in being fathers and being men. I guess one of the questions that I would have for you in the work that you're doing is there are going to be fathers that have not worked with you, but are thinking to themselves, you know what? There's some things that we that I could maybe be doing here based on what Jason's saying. What are some initial steps, some things that they could do right now today that could get them moving in at least the right direction? It may still mean that they wanna work with you down the road, but at least to have either an internal dialogue or have something that will allow for them to push themselves in the right direction in this regard.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:21:30]:
I think the first step and and I have guys do this early on in the work anyway, and I I it's I think it's really important. There's there's 2 different things to become aware of. The first is what do we want? And I can blow that out. What kind of father do I wanna be? What kind of sons or daughters do I wanna raise? Not that I have much control over that, but in an ideal sense, what would I like to give to my kids? What kind of legacy do I wanna to share with them? What kind of values do I want to do I want to exist in my household? And really taking a look at what I would like that to be. How I would like do I want a household where after dinner, everybody's sitting on the same couch looking at their phones? Do I wanna have a household where everybody goes back to their rooms and does whatever, but we're not connected? Do I wanna have some mixture of that, but also, like, I don't know, we're playing board games at night or whatever, but, like, real specific, what do I want my household, my home to look like? And how do I want the relationships of the people who I purport to love the most? How do I want them to be? So I want first to ask men, how do you get clear on that? Do you want to spend your time tinkering in the garage or do you wanna be with the kids? Do you want what do you want? Do you want more intimacy with your wife? I had one guy who joined Journeyman said, I want my kids to be as comfortable holding my hand at 22 as they are at 12 and that they were at 2 and he said doesn't have to be literally holding my hands, but metaphorically, I want them to have that same level of comfort throughout their life. And that was his goal. That was his treasure. So I wanna encourage fathers to think about what are the ongoing relational goals that they have in their home, with their partner, with their kids, with themselves.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:23:15]:
So that would be step 1. And step 2 would be, what's getting in the way? And it's time to be radically honest with yourselves, guys. Right? What is getting in the way? Let's just use the example of not wanting everyone to be on their own phones and to be dialoguing or spending time together or doing something. What's really getting in the way? Starting with you and the other adults in the house. If you look at yourself, a lot of journeymen, a lot of the work there, I always am very explicit. It's not a parenting group. We talk about parenting. We talk about that.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:23:43]:
It's not about getting your kids to eat vegetables or go to bed on time, or learn to drive the car responsibly. It's men's work. It's about you being a stronger, more present, grounded man who can be in relationship, who can be in partnership. And so with that, you're gonna be a better father. You're gonna be a better partner. You're gonna be a better, more present to everything that's going on. So to answer your question more succinctly is get it clear with what you want at home and get clear about what you really give a shit about and what's getting in the way. What's getting in the way? What are the obstacles? Right? Are you too tired? Are you too stressed? Are you is your own pattern to isolate when things happen? Is your own pattern to get reactive? What is the thing that keeps you from those goals that you're looking for and name it.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:24:26]:
Can't tell you how important that is. Once you name the obstacle, you have some control over it. And I've had clients who, once they identify it, really understand it and give it a name, I've had clients tell me like, oh my god, things are so much better. Just because they start to notice and they start to give something a name, you have some power. So those would be the 2 steps that I would suggest anyone can start to get a handle on before even getting into this work more deeply.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:48]:
Well, I appreciate you sharing that because I think it is a journey and definitely something that will take time and effort, and you may have to get out of some bad practices or bad ruts that your family might have gotten into, especially over COVID or other aspects that change things. You know, you may have to make some adjustments within your home and really think deeply about where you want to be, where you are right now, as Jason already said. Now, Jason, we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:25:22]:
Before you start, can I add one thing? It'll be very quick. I am realizing I'm reflecting even on what I said, and it all sounds very heady and up here. More importantly or most importantly is, like, having some fun. I think so much of what men do is we go to work, we come home, we discipline, we but have fun with your family. Like, you love them. Have fun with them. And I just think that so much of the work, while it has this real heady, deep depth underground, a lot of the work, especially at Journeyman, is around fun. It's around metaphor.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:25:53]:
It's around being silly. It's around all those things. And so I can't emphasize that enough is that men need to be having more fun. So anyway, the fatherhood 5 we can get into, but I didn't wanna not say that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:05]:
Connections.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:06]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:10]:
I watch my 2 sons being friends. They're 3 and a half years apart and they're buddies. They really are. And they admit it. They like to admit it. They'll argue like other brothers, but they are close. And I watch them. My parents did the same thing, but I, my wife and I always said, we would love for our boys to be aligned together even more than they're aligned with us, and truly they are.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:31]:
And so that that's a success. That's a big win for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]:
If I were to talk to your sons, how would they describe you as a dad?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:38]:
It depends on the day. I think they would say that I'm silly. I am annoyingly optimistic and positive. I love to cook and I love to take care of them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:49]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:26:51]:
Well, they do for 1, for sure. My wife does. My own parents do. And I'm really fortunate, actually. I have a close group of male friends. And the depth of friendship that I with them is unusual. And I don't take it for granted, but all of them are either fathers or uncles and are good men. And so there's a mutual, like, love, respect, and inspiration in terms of doing better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:13]:
You've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for people to think about and to delve a little bit deeper into their own psyche and themselves to figure out kind of where they're at and where they wanna be. But as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:27:28]:
Hug and kiss your kids and say the words I love you. I mean it, of course, but I think the small actions count. I think the piece of advice is really hug, kiss, and saying I love you can be lots of things, but the small intentional and consistent actions are more important than any grandiose gesture that you can do. We're working at a long term deep foundation. And so if you want your kids to be the kind of humans that you're hoping for and to have a relationship for life, then play the lifelong game. And so small, consistent, intentional actions are really the way to go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:06]:
Now we talked about Journeyman. We talked about the work that you're doing. If people wanna find out more about you, about Journeymen, where's the best place for them to go?

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:28:13]:
The 2 places. First is I live on the website, so journeymenfoundation dotcom. The other piece is right now, I say sometimes we, but it's really me. So if you email jason@nourished connections.com, you'll get me directly. And I I really enjoy connecting with people who are either fathers or who love fathers and wanna be supportive. And so those are the 2 most direct ways, but I'm also on social media. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. And one thing that I would offer is, and I can send you a link afterwards, is I did put together this sort of it's the 10 fastest, most effective ways that fathers can connect with their kids.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:28:49]:
And it's all about the small, consistent actions. I do every single one of them. So this isn't just something I write about. I'm also the president. And so I can send the link to that and people are more than welcome to as soon as you when you go to that link, you can download that copy. Every single one on there, I think I timed it once. If you did all 10, I think there's a bonus 11. But if you did all 10, it's less than 12 minutes every day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:11]:
I love it, and we'll definitely add it to the notes today and add it in so everyone can take 10 minutes to reconnect and to better connect with your kids. Jason, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Jason Frishman [00:29:27]:
Oh, thank you so much. This has been great. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:29]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.

Get out and be the world to them. Them. Be the best dad you can be.
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From Event Manager to Stay-At-Home Dad: Gerard Gousman's Parenting Journey
5 août· Dads With Daughters
A Heartfelt Conversation

In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Gerard Gousman to explore the unique experiences and challenges he faces as a father of four sons. Gerard shares his heartfelt insights and practical advice, making this episode a must-listen for every dad striving to be the best parent they can be. Let's dive into the critical themes and topics discussed during their engaging conversation.

Reflecting on the Initial Stages of Fatherhood

Gerard Gousman opens up about his initial reactions to becoming a father. The mix of excitement, fear, and overwhelming responsibility is something many new dads can resonate with. "It's like stepping into a world where you have no previous experience," says Gerard, reflecting on the early days of fatherhood. As he navigated through sleepless nights and constant second-guessing, Gerard began to understand the profound and rewarding nature of being a dad.

The Dynamics of Parenting at Different Stages

Parenting isn't a 'one size fits all' journey, and Gerard underscores this by discussing the differences in parenting toddlers, preteens, and teenagers. He highlights the importance of flexibility and adaptation, learning to adjust his parenting style to each child's unique needs and communication preferences. By doing so, Gerard has been able to maintain close relationships with his kids, fostering an environment where they feel safe and understood.

Embracing Technology and Remote Living

With the shift to remote work and education, Gerard speaks on the challenges and opportunities this new dynamic brings. Living in a more remote setting has highlighted the importance of balancing screen time with physical activity and real-world interactions. Gerard emphasizes finding creative solutions to keep his children engaged and active, such as outdoor adventures and tech-free family time.

The Pressures and Expectations of Fatherhood

One of the most relatable aspects of Gerard's story is his fear of not meeting the high standards and expectations of modern fatherhood. "There's always this lingering worry—am I doing enough?" Gerard admits candidly. Over time, he learned that striving for perfection isn't sustainable. Instead, he focuses on being present and consistent, realizing that it's the simple, everyday moments that matter most.

Creating Wins and Building a Cool Dad Reputation

A shining light in Gerard’s journey is his 'cool dad' win at the trampoline park. Taking his 7-year-old and a friend out for some jumping fun led to high praise from the friend, labeling Gerard as the "coolest dad at school." This moment encapsulates the joy of being an involved parent and solidifies Gerard's belief in the importance of participating in his children's interests.

Finding Inspiration and Support

Gerard draws inspiration from his children's growth and positivity and from other supportive dads who share their journeys. He emphasizes the importance of finding a community, whether through local groups or online platforms. These connections offer a sense of belonging and a wealth of shared knowledge, making the challenges of fatherhood feel less isolating.

Advice for New Dads: Stay Happy and True to Yourself

To new fathers, Gerard offers sage advice: "Don't lose yourself after becoming a father. Your happiness is crucial for your family's well-being." He encourages dads to pursue their interests and maintain their personal happiness, which in turn creates a more joyful and balanced family environment.

Transitioning Careers for Family

Gerard's decision to transition from a high-pressure career in the event management and music industry to being a stay-at-home dad speaks volumes about his commitment to his family. He discusses the fear of missing out (FOMO) and the challenges of shifting focus from an active social lifestyle to home life. Parenthood required him to reevaluate his priorities and embrace a new, fulfilling role.

Navigating Family Dynamics and Individual Needs

Understanding that each child is unique, Gerard keeps notes on his children's favorite things to use as points of connection when other communication methods fail. This personalized approach has helped him navigate tough conversations and strengthen his bond with each child.

Advocating for At-Home Dads

Gerard has become a vocal advocate for at-home dads, participating in a New York Times article to challenge stereotypes. His efforts have been met with positive responses from friends and other fathers, underscoring the value of representation and community.

The Role of Community in Fatherhood

Finding a supportive Fatherhood community, like the National At Home Dad Network and local dad groups, has been instrumental in Gerard’s journey. He emphasizes the importance of reaching out and connecting with others who understand and appreciate the unique challenges and rewards of fatherhood.

The Simple Joys of Fatherhood For Gerard, fatherhood in one word is "amazing." It's the little victories, the shared laughs, and the opportunity to watch his children grow that make the journey so rewarding. As he continues to adapt and learn, Gerard remains a beacon of positivity and strength for his family.

In summary, Gerard Gousman's journey is a powerful reminder that fatherhood, with all its ups and downs, is an ever-evolving adventure. His insights and experiences provide invaluable lessons for dads at any stage, encouraging them to embrace the journey with an open heart and a flexible mindset.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dance with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. You know, every week, I love being able to sit down and talk with you, to work with you, to help you on this journey that you're on. Each one of us is on a unique journey. And you have daughters, I have daughters, but we learn from each other. We learn from others. And the more that we're willing to step out and hear what others have to say, step out and take in that learning, take in what others have to say, the more that you're going to be able to be that engaged dad, and that father that you want to be to your children. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different perspectives and, and different from different walks of life that have gone through either fatherhood in a different way have different resources that they can share. And I love being able to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]:
Because, as I said, each one of us is on a unique journey, but we can learn from each other and we can help each other along the way. This week, we got another great guest with us. Gerard Guzman is with us today. Gerard is a father of 4 sons. And you might be saying, well, this is the dads with daughters podcast. Why are we having a father of sons here? Well, there's a reason and we're gonna be talking about that. Gerard went through his own journey as a working dad that made some choices, made some choices to be that active, engaged dad that he wanted to be and may have made some choices that you might have made or might not have made. We're gonna talk about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]:
And I'm really excited to have him here, be able to share his story, learn a little bit more about him. Gerard, thanks so much for being here today.

Gerard Gousman [00:01:53]:
Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:54]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to have you on and being able to learn more about you. 1st and foremost, I love being able to start the podcast with the opportunity to go back in time, get in the in that proverbial time machine. I want to go all the way back. I know you've got kids that range from 22 months all the way to 22 years. So I want to go back maybe 23 years, I want to go back to that first moment that you you found out that you were going to be a father. What was going through your head?

Gerard Gousman [00:02:19]:
For the first time, I was young. I was in college scared, excited, hopeful. It was there from was the experience of not knowing what was ahead of me, but, like, alright. Trying to figure out, alright. How can how do I do this? How do I be a dad? And I look at the examples of examples around me and okay. To figure out how long if I take a little piece of pieces of this from the different dads I know and trying to grab what I thought was right. And, of course, none of us do it right. It's from the start. So got that knocked myself off, knocked my dust myself off, and got back up and keep trying it again and again until some point in the next couple weeks. I think I may get it right.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:55]:
I'll have to check back with you in that few weeks and see if you actually hit that point because I don't know if any of us do it right all the time. And we definitely stumble, fall, pick ourselves back up, as you said. And our kids are gonna be the first ones to point out when we make mistakes. So that's definitely the case. Now, as I said, you've got kids that range from 22 years to 22 months. And with each and every child, you have to parent in a little bit different way. And you've learned things along the way, but you've got a very young child and a child that's potentially out of the nest in regards to grown, flown, starting his adult life now. So talk to me about what you've learned along the way and how you're parenting your 22 month old now differently than you may have parented your 22 year old.

Gerard Gousman [00:03:44]:
Yeah. It's definitely a much different world now, physical world and just my immediate world where I'm coming from then being young and my experience, all things that come with being a young adult in a big city and trying to do that. And it was also at the time of really starting. I was in music and college and working in marketing. Just Just starting out working in marketing in events and just trying to navigate and figure out what I was gonna be and what I was gonna do. And some of the experiences I have always been of the mind is bring trying to do as much as you can to marry marry my worlds together. I was trying to bring the kids out into the events and never use that having kids excuse to not be able to do something that you probably could do with them. That's something I've always tried to maintain with of showing my kids as much of the world and as many different experiences as I can.

Gerard Gousman [00:04:39]:
And still to this day doing that, but a bit differently, plus the mix of technology, and we're a little more remote than we were then. And starting out, I was with in Chicago, it's so close to a lot of family. But now remote here in the on the West Coast, and most of my family is still Midwest and back east. So it's completely different raising the family, raising kids away from the family, and not having a strong of a communal family support.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]:
Now you mentioned at the beginning when you first had your first child, you were definitely a little bit scared. And I think there's some fear that goes along with every father, Whether you have daughters, whether you have sons, in some aspect, when you bring a new child into the world, there's always some fear. What was your biggest fear in being a father?

Gerard Gousman [00:05:22]:
A lot. I think of not being able to hold up to the standards that I had, I guess, as a kid, like, what the ideal dad was. Like, when I grow up, when I have kids, I'm never gonna yell, and I'm gonna always be there, and I'm always gonna be smart, and I'm gonna trust my kids and know all the things that you wanted as a child from your parents. I'm like, I'm gonna be that parent. Like, how do I hold up to be that parent that I wanted as a kid? And then I realized, like, that's not realistic. You you quickly learn, like, oh, that's why they were always tired. That's why they were always yelling. Like, in retrospect, that was very dangerous. It's finding that out that I could try to bring in those parts of me that I wanted to mold and have my parenting style being able to live up to that standard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:13]:
Now with the fact that your children are at different points, different ages, different experience levels, and you look at that fear now in regard to what you've gone through. Is the fear that you have as a father different for your 22 month old in the life that he will have versus the fear that you have now for your adult son?

Gerard Gousman [00:06:35]:
Think of are you thinking in in time that learn to be a lot more flexible and not take not take the losses as hard. And sometimes, like, I take the stumbles as much. I mean, there's simply times where you do everything you can and things don't work out, but you say, alright. Didn't work out this time. How do I learn from this experience and use it to parent better down the road? So going back to things I thought of with now with my now 7 year old being the 1st grader and thinking back to when my oldest was in that age and trying not to put as much pressure, like, that pressure to be the best student and be the nicest kid and be perfect in public and be respectful. Be always be as respectful as possible and and to try to keep them as polished they could. And now being a point of letting them breathe and kinda learn their own way and instilling those the same principles in them, but not instilling the pressure as much. I wanna know that, yeah, it's okay to take those missteps and but being able to be open and and be able to come back to us as parents and know that we have that support level of support that I don't think I instilled in my kids, in my older kids when they were younger.

Gerard Gousman [00:07:52]:
It's kinda that these are your benchmarks. You gotta hit them. You gotta hit them. And now it's like, alright. If you don't, that's okay. We can find a way to make up the gap.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:00]:
And kinda chuckling to myself because I think as you go through life as a parent, and I I could just imagine your oldest son saying to you, you were so much harder on me and you kept me to a different standard than than you're holding to my younger siblings. And you do. You know, it's not that you're favoring one than another, but you learn. And as you said, you become more laid back, I believe. The more fathers that I talk to, the more kids that they have, I think the more laid back they do become.

Gerard Gousman [00:08:28]:
Yeah. And then the thing of knowing how like, in the beginning, you don't know what the outcome or outcomes be, but outcomes will be. But as it goes on, you kinda you understand the patterns. You see the algorithm of life. And, like, okay. I know where before I had to make the 6 or 7 steps. I know that 2 or 3 of those steps weren't really important and kinda slowed things up. So now being able to have been able to more fine tune things in real time and just being more aware of those benchmarks that we like I said before about trying to hit those and not it's not always the most important thing. Sometimes the trying is enough.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:03]:
Now I know that or you, as you said, you were a employee for many years, you worked out in the world, doing event management, Salt N Pepper, Cat Power. I mean, lots of artists that were out there. You were traveling a lot, and at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that some changes need to be had, and you needed to be closer to home. You needed to be able to be more a part of the family. Talk to me about that internal conversation you had to have, the conversation you had to have with your wife as well to think about this in a different scenario that made you make some choices that were going to substantially change your life and change your family's life?

Gerard Gousman [00:09:50]:
Yeah. Well, I think into that point, it was sitting around the birth of my 3rd, and the 2nd one's went through, and it was kinda wandering in between, I guess, seasons. I guess the way the event seasons go, it's kinda like the tail end and starting I don't know. I wanted to be there and support my wife as much as I could that and doing the beginning of the maternity leave and school being able to really be a part of the moments, all of the pre visits and all that stuff and really having the excitement of the pregnancy. That's not that I missed out by. My other 2 was just, like, being out on the road and traveling and not being able to be there for the earliest moments. And once it got to that point of, like, seeing it, I knew I could be there. And one of the things made it a lot easier is is the decision to be able to support my wife in her career.

Gerard Gousman [00:10:38]:
And she she was on the upper trajectory. And Shrunkar Bennett really got into a point where she was really making strides and wanted to be able to support her in that and give that example for the kids as well. Like, I know I could do this and with cards on the table and look to see what our strengths were. It's like, yeah. I I can do this and give you that so you need to go back and focus on your career and or can I can hold it down here and still be able to do things that I needed to do for myself? And when it I think I've built a strong relationship with my wife, and we are to the point that we are very open communicators in regards to what our immediate needs are. Like, we tend to check-in with each other, and where it may not be something long gone or drawn out, we know when something's not right and, like, always we try to stay on the same page much as possible. And I think that helped make the transition a lot easier, just knowing that I can instill a system, and we have our routines in the house, and it makes us it could be able to flow. And we are able to still have a lot of the things that we loved about life before.

Gerard Gousman [00:11:41]:
Like, we're avid campers, and we like to travel. And being able to do that stuff with the kids while they're young, I think, has been great for me. Like, definitely a lot of those day to day, like, month to month, the growing things, like, being able to notice little height differences. Like, that arm's longer than it was a few weeks ago. And having full conversations with the baby, and actually, like, because I'm with because I'm with him, I understand what he's saying. And so you're having those things that priceless and suits so valuable, and, like, I know you never get that time. It's really knowing the value of the time. It's been more valuable than however much I would have made out there in the field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:21]:
So talk to me a little bit about that transition, that transition from work at work outside of the house, traveling, working in the industry, working with artists, you know, that high pressure, high paced life to transitioning to home and being that stay at home dad where you're running the household, keeping things running while your wife is working on her career. What was the hardest part for you in making that transition? And what were some of the things that you had to fundamentally change to be able to help you to make that transition?

Gerard Gousman [00:12:52]:
Honestly, coming from for being, very active and constantly out, going out 3, 4 nights a week even when I'm not wasn't working or I wasn't traveling. Still going home and being active in my local art and music event scene. There's no stand abreast. You gotta keep your faces in a place to be active. You're not around. You're not in. Right? So it's coming from making just that desire and having that FOMO was the big thing of man, I'm missing out on a lot of stuff, all those opportunities. And it's it's like the music festivals and concerts and stuff.

Gerard Gousman [00:13:26]:
It's that high energy. Always go, never knowing exactly what's gonna be next, which some days, that's what it's like around here. And, see, see, making that transition was not as hard as I thought it would be at first using a lot of the things that I learned on the day to day managing the field, the schedules, and having those routines, dealing with wrangling wild and unruly staff and artists. I'm like, it's pretty much what I'm doing here, keeping everything afloat. It's that mode of getting into not having that FOMO and finding what elements of that former life can I bring in? I guess the biggest thing is just that missing out on the activity of being around the my peers. I think that was the hardest part of the disconnect of the transition of not being having that peer relationship. As much as I could, we could go out and take kids to do stuff, but kinda hard to have that feel. Getting over that and finding supplements and finding community and that were more in tune with that part of my lifestyle.

Gerard Gousman [00:14:30]:
It has been good and just working with the National At Home Dad Network, and I that was a godsend for me, being able to find find the group. And, like, man, there's a whole community of dads out there. It kinda opened me up to me to see, like, yeah. I'm not as isolated in this as I believe I was in the beginning. That's that made things so much easier, designing was really being able to know that I could go out and find the communities if I look for them. And then once I found a couple of places to be able to places to commiserate or places to share what, for me, it would have been a big win. Like, hey. Today today was a no blowout day.

Gerard Gousman [00:15:09]:
First no blowout day. That's a big deal. My all working, partying event friends were like, no. That's they don't care about them. Like, so finding people that what are my constituted a big win in my current life, finding a community that understood those moments.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]:
So talk to me about community because you mentioned that you got connected at the national level with the At Home Dad Network and how we've had some past guests from the At Home Debt Network on the show. Talk to me about finding that community, what you had to do to find that community, not only nationally through the work that you're doing on the board of the At Home Dad Network now, but but even locally of being able to find those peers or those other dads that were going through similar things that you could start to have a new community for yourself. What did you have to do to be able to initially find that community and then build, hone, and grow that community for yourself?

Gerard Gousman [00:16:04]:
Kinda funny. I use some of the things that I would use initially in, like, having events and finding the different event communities and nightlife sectors. They're just going going through and mining through Facebook and different like Facebook and Tumblr and Reddit and looking for those communities and realizing that there are thriving online communities of engaged, active fathers and really putting myself out there and, like, hey, this is what I'm looking for. This is this is what I'm struggling with. These are the problems I'm having. Anybody ever experienced this? And and then finding there's 100 guys like, yeah. Last week, that was me. Exactly that.

Gerard Gousman [00:16:42]:
Last week. We do that both finding that online community, but finding that those those guys were here in my state, in in my in town and going in, like, alright. Putting myself out there. Hey, you guys. Let's get together. Let's meet. Let's go out and do some media at the park or the toddler gym or we should get out and have a beer or something. And when I took it on myself to really throw myself into it, like, if I don't put myself out there and find it, it's not going it's not just gonna come to and knowing that I was struggling with that disconnect, with that FOMO, just like and having that having that backup. This is something that's not ideas off of with other dads. Once I found myself really being able to throw myself into it and reach out to other dads that I knew, like, a and ask them, like, hey. Are you suffering with the same stuff that I have? And, like, no. No. I'm good. Well, actually, yeah. I didn't wanna say anything, but, yeah, I feel that too in, like, of having friends that, like, man, you know what? Let me check on some of my mom check on my dad friends. And, like, I know how I'm feeling. Let me check up on them. And then once doing that, like, seeing it there like, yeah, a lot of us were having that same thing, but, like, not feeling that we had anybody to talk to. So I might try to invite them into different spaces or just always make make myself available to be a space for my immediate community of dads. Then I've gone on to, like, join my local PTA and try being more active in my kids' school and work with some of the dads there to have more of the fathers on campus and doing doing things and more active in the events. And that has helped. Definitely had comments from other dads in the school.

Gerard Gousman [00:18:21]:
And it's great to see you always there. Like, I was nervous about going because it's always just the moms, but seeing you in in it and active, like, made me feel okay. Alright? There'll at least be somebody another dad there to talk to. And and every time now I go out, go to pick up the kids, like, hey, man. I see some of the dads, like, hey, we doing this or something. Just checking in on how you doing. Like, not how you doing, but how are you? And checking in on the other day, that's when I see them at pick up and inviting them into the spaces in school and and know, like, hey, it's not a spady thing. They're not gonna load up on you.

Gerard Gousman [00:18:48]:
Be more active. You got to support. There's other guys here that get it. And we're starting to start to have more of the dads in our school community be more active and stepping up and taking a lead on things. So that's been great to see.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:05]:
Yeah. It's so exciting to to hear that you're finding that community. I think that whether you're working or not, it's so important to find a community that you connect with and don't go through fatherhood feeling like you have to do everything by yourself because so many times men step into fatherhood thinking, I've got to know everything. I've got to be that expert. I've got to be the man per se. And you don't you don't have to be the man. You can be a man and know that there are so many other people right around your block or in your apartment complex. No matter where you live that are going through similar things, you just have to reach out and you have to talk to them and just kinda, Gerard, like you said, just say, how are you and truly be willing to ask the question and see and understand and connect on that deeper level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:59]:
So, Gerard, one of the things that I guess that I would ask is now you've got kids at different ages. They're involved in so many different things. The personalities are probably very different from one another. How do you keep that connection and build those unique relationships with each of your kids?

Gerard Gousman [00:20:17]:
That part definitely difficult, especially once the teenage years and they grow and get their independence, and they construct their own communities. I think I always tap in and let them know I relate to what's going on. I try to I'll let them know, like, I'm always available to talk. Especially for the older kids, like, we don't talk as much and maybe a like my 16 year old.

Gerard Gousman [00:20:42]:
Are you good? I'm cool. Alright. Tell me about your day. What's we gonna tell me about your week. Alright. Anything new? No. And I'm like, alright. So I'll check-in next month. They're going through and make it a point of having to go on to the, like, all the the school forums and following the the different school Facebook groups and different stuff. Like, I'm like, you got a key from the mayor? Why didn't you tell anybody? Like, it wasn't a big deal. What? The mayor came to send me a school and no. You didn't you didn't wanna tell anybody that that was happening. Like, that isn't a big deal. Well, at least put on a nice shirt that day. So things like that. Like, wanting to be open when I can. I know, not the hippest. They're definitely difficult across but they're totally different generations, I guess. If you ask them, they're totally different generations. What worked with the oldest, I mean, I know I could even work with the 16 year old and between the 16 and the 17 year old.

Gerard Gousman [00:21:36]:
The way I could communicate and relate with 1 to a totally different approach to the other. And so I'm going through and finding those personality points and being able to figure out, adjust, and tweak my parenting style for each of them. Just realizing that, alright, the way I can talk to one isn't the same as other. Like, one, I can go through and ask something, and they'll just ramble on and tell you all the detail. Another one, it puts pulling teeth. You're asking it's 50 questions. It's 50 questions together. How was your day? Just to get to that point.

Gerard Gousman [00:22:08]:
And so finding a way that it each communicates and how to research. I wanna watch videos and read articles and Internet snooping and going on to TikTok and Instagram and going through the trends, like, alright. What did I hear them mention? They're in, like, alright. And just trying to stay abreast of what's what's hip in their different areas. Like, alright. What's hip for the in this age group? What's hip in this age group? And how just using those little points I can to as a point of relation to open them up because I may ask a bunch of questions, but then I may mention something about this one artist. And that may be the thing that unlocks that that window that was shut in with blinds and locked and curtains across it. Now our sun's coming right on in now.

Gerard Gousman [00:22:54]:
It's like, oh, yeah.

Gerard Gousman [00:22:55]:
That's my favorite song. I was thinking about that. You know what? I was talking to my friends today. You know, we were thinking about going to Greece. I'm like, oh, I

Gerard Gousman [00:23:01]:
asked you, had you heard this song? All the information I've been trying to get out of you for a month has just come down because I asked you, had you heard this new song? So I'm interested in finding things like that, those little points of connection where I can. And I keep a little Google Keep note list of the things like favorite food and drink orders, and stuff like that. They mentioned this artist one time. Make sure I remember on that. And just jotting down little things for each kid that those bigger points of relation that I can come back to when that normal communication isn't working.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:33]:
So this whole story of what we've been talking about was recently put out in front of the world through a New York Times article. And talk to me about that, and why you chose to be a part of that article, why you wanted your story out there, but also what has come from that story being shared? And what are you hearing not only from people around you, but people broader than in your local community.

Gerard Gousman [00:24:02]:
Yeah. So, so that was a great opportunity. I was definitely happy to be included. The writer, Kelly Coyne, reached out to me, and we had a great discussion about some of the some of this about my experiences as

Gerard Gousman [00:24:15]:
a father and just in the changing styles of fatherhood, and wanted to work with the org with that Home Dad Network. That's been one of our mission. Being able to help update that face of parenthood and kinda change the popular conception of at home dads. I wanted to have them be included because it's been an interesting journey for me and having more dads be open about the experience. And we we do we have a lot of that. I definitely have gotten that mister mom comment from strangers and friends alike as both an insult and as a compliment from it being termed as something endearing and something as a joke. And knowing that we'd be able to put to face a fatherhood that can be active in being at home and regularly engage fathers, not just done one way. There's not just one way to do that.

Gerard Gousman [00:25:10]:
So that's something I wanted to, I guess, give my perspective on, of the way that it works for us versus the way that some other dads mentioned the way that they came to this point of being at home dad and being a primary caregiver. So it was honor to be able to share that perspective. I think having some of the response I've gotten, really great all around, friends, family. But having other guys that I know that were dads reach out, I think that's been the best part of seeing, like, man, that's cool. Like, I really really wish I could do that. Like, I wanna do that, but I don't think I have it in me to be able to teach my kids on the day of having the patience or having a structure and being able to be open with them. It's like, hey. It's it's not all every day is not great.

Gerard Gousman [00:25:56]:
It's not all wins, but it's all positive. It's all necessary. Like, I am always happy at the end result. Right? And once I you have to have those points hitting those walls and having the end result, like, at the end of day, like, well, it's more worse circumstances we could be in and being happy that I am able to have the opportunity. Having the privilege to be able to be in a position that I can be here and make these mistakes and learn with my family and help my family grow. I guess, I haven't had it's negative. I did have, but I reached out for an interview, and it was kinda the the other side of it, they want it, bro. What's the negative response you've gotten? Like, there hasn't isn't any.

Gerard Gousman [00:26:35]:
Like, what was the bad part? It's not. It's been great as far as the experience. Of course, there's always small things, family things that happen, but it has been a majorly positive experience because that's what I make it. And it's like if in being able to relate that to other fathers. The experience is gonna be what you make. It's not gonna be easy. It's not gonna be as hard as you think it will be either. It definitely will be the days where you gotta sit in the emergency room after you but you get up early and think you're gonna go to bed early, and it's like next thing, you know, you're up till 3 AM, and you gotta get up at 7 AM the next day.

Gerard Gousman [00:27:09]:
It's like but you keep going, and you find the time to make your peace. And that's the biggest thing that has made this a positive and more eased experience for me, is the focus that my wife and I put on having our home be a place of peace. And I instillment with the kids. Like, I yell just like most dads, I'm sure, yell. Then circling back on that, circling back. Alright. Oh, bring that back. That's why I yelled.

Gerard Gousman [00:27:38]:
We need to stop yelling as a collective and learning how to quiet yell. This is something I've been working on with the baby, this quiet yelling with him. Like, you can be you can be mad. You can scream, but don't scream at me. I am so angry right now. Don't do that. Like, see? It still works. He reads the facial.

Gerard Gousman [00:27:58]:
I'm like, he can read the facial expressions. Okay. Okay.

Gerard Gousman [00:28:02]:
And so sometimes that he's gonna

Gerard Gousman [00:28:04]:
go into it, and I'm learning, seeing that he is learning that as well, He's screaming, and then he was I'm like, you're getting it. Okay? So I think I'm a you know, things of being able to share the learnings with so much the with the broader community of dads and parents. But just having that small community of dads that I've been friends with forever coming to me and be like, you know what? I've been struggling. I didn't think I could do this. But, you know, I I read your piece and seen your piece like, man, it's thank you. Thank you for putting on that face for us and know that it is hard and that we can do this. And I think that's been the best response for me was having dads that that I knew come to me and, like, that's it right there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:48]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Okay. In one word, what is fatherhood?

Gerard Gousman [00:28:57]:
Yes. What indeed? It's it is a constant what. Amazing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:03]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father?

Gerard Gousman [00:29:07]:
Sometime between 3 and 3:15. Last week, I figured a point to kinda catalog my wins so that on those bad days, those those days I'll take the l, I can draw back to them. So I had one last week. I took my 7 year old and one of his friends, one of his classmates. They were on spring break last week. Took him took him to trampoline par, and it's how seeing how happy they were and having the friend comment like, gee, I always knew you were the coolest dad at school.

Gerard Gousman [00:29:36]:
And I was like, you remember to tell all the other kids that when you go back to school next week. Okay? He's like, oh, they already know. Like, you alright. Now you're just messing with me. Get out of here. I'm like, what do you want?

Gerard Gousman [00:29:46]:
He's like, no. Really? We like you. It's like, okay. Maximus is that's my son. Like, Maximus is always he sure ain't always happy, and he seems to have a lot of fun. And you guys do cool things, and you always do cool stuff for us at school. So that's why, like, yeah. You're definitely the coolest dad at school.

Gerard Gousman [00:30:03]:
And I was like, alright.

Gerard Gousman [00:30:04]:
I'm gonna remember this. See how long this last. I'm gonna remember this. Bring this back up in a couple of months when you're making fun of me. Because last year in kindergarten, they were all making fun of me for being bald. So to know that I'm one of them thinks that I'm cool. That's not mine. That that I'm taking that weed.

Gerard Gousman [00:30:20]:
Yeah. Just knowing that it was cool like that. It seemed that not just because we do and giving them stuff, but it's like that. The other kids notice how happy my kids are and think that it's because of me. That that was a win for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:32]:
Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Gerard Gousman [00:30:36]:
Which one on which day? Open? Fun? Tired? A good cook? Positive. More often than not, I am positive and try to keep them focused on a positive trajectory.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:48]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Gerard Gousman [00:30:50]:
First off, my kids. They I feel like seeing the growth and seeing the smaller lessons. The things that I don't think that they all the things that you don't think they listened to that they didn't hear. And seeing them engage in the world as positivity and seeing them being kind and open and taking care of others, that generally is recharging to me. Like, alright. I'm doing something. I'm doing something right. How can I build on this? Right? So I have kinda curated a great great base of dads.

Gerard Gousman [00:31:22]:
So I'm getting lots of great dad content from different podcasts. The things that a lot of the dads in our network do, the way they interact with their kids, the risk that dads take, putting their selves out there to not only tackle their home and family stuff, but in going out and living their dreams. And guys like Matt Strain, who all the stuff for his family, but also as a triathlete and doing things like that. Like, man, I couldn't imagine running on a walker like myself. He's like, no, man. It's you just gotta get into it and and go and delve in and do it. Like, having dads who push the envelope and really put their stuff out there to be more than just dad. And try to remember that, a, we were once young, vibrant men with dreams and hopes and hobbies and try the the dads who find themselves and get back to that and are but are still fully active in in their debt.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:19]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things for all of us to think about and to consider for our own journeys as dads. As we leave today, as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Gerard Gousman [00:32:32]:
I'd say, in closing, the it tends to know that becoming a father doesn't have to mark the end of you being a man. You can find those avenues to be able to go out and maintain your happiness, maintain your peace, and be a person. Right? And don't lose yourself in that, that go to your kids to see that you are not just that, but that you are still vibrant and that you love your life and are living a life that makes you happy, not just living a life of service. So I think that would be the that's the biggest thing I would share is, like, to go out and make sure that your kids see you being happy with your life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:17]:
Well, Gerard, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today. If people people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?

Gerard Gousman [00:33:24]:
I am so boring, but join the National At Home Data Network. We are doing membership drive. If they come and join us, Come hang out with us at DadCon in Saint Louis this year. That's in October. And it's the only way you can find me in one of those forums if I'm not somewhere wrangling?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:40]:
Well, Gerard, just thank you. Thank you so much for being here, and I wish you all the best.

Gerard Gousman [00:33:44]:
Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate being on. Will be listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:47]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:27]:
Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.
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Faith and Family: Ryan Moore's Mission to Empower His Daughters
29 juil.· Dads With Daughters
Balancing Family Life and Professional Responsibilities as a Dad with Daughters

Fatherhood presents a unique set of challenges and joys, each intertwined with the fabric of daily life. In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast, we welcome Ryan Moore, a bi-vocational pastor and school counselor and father, who shares his journey of raising five daughters while balancing his professional commitments. This insightful episode delves deep into the nuances of fatherhood, mental well-being, and the nurturing of relationships.

Growing Up with Sisters:

An Early Advantage Ryan Moore's upbringing played a significant role in shaping his perspective on fatherhood. Growing up with two sisters and no brothers in a foreign country provided him with a unique advantage: an intrinsic understanding of others' thoughts and feelings. This background laid the foundation for his empathetic approach to parenting, allowing him to be more attuned to his daughters' needs.

"I had to be more intentional with my word choice and approach," Ryan shares, emphasizing the importance of intentional communication. This deliberate gentleness has been pivotal in his journey of raising daughters, helping him engage effectively and avoid the stereotypical "male responses" that might inadvertently harm them.

The Importance of Healthy Relationships

One of Ryan's primary hopes for his daughters is for them to cultivate healthy relationships. Having struggled with unhealthy relationships in his past, Ryan deeply values the importance of faith and strong, nurturing connections. He aspires for his daughters to develop bonds that are nourished by mutual respect and love, both within the family and beyond.

As a bi-vocational pastor, he integrates his faith into daily family life, ensuring that his daughters understand the value of spirituality and compassion. His wife's organizational skills and passion for helping people further reinforce this environment, creating a home where every member feels supported and valued.

Navigating Professional Challenges and Personal Well-being

Ryan Moore’s role at Oxford Virtual Academy and as a former counselor at Oxford High School has had its share of challenges. The tragic shootings at Oxford High School took a significant toll on his mental well-being, making it difficult to transition back to family life. "Coping with such trauma requires a conscious effort," he notes, underscoring the importance of mental health for fathers.

To manage stress and maintain a work-life balance, Ryan introduced weekly board game nights. These gatherings not only serve as a fun family activity but also help develop critical skills in his children, such as risk assessment and spatial thinking. Additionally, the Moore family indulges in month-long road trips during the summer, exploring national parks and cultural sites to reconnect and rejuvenate.

Embracing a New Adventure:

The Africa Mercy Ship A significant upcoming chapter for Ryan and his family involves joining the Africa Mercy ship for a two-year term. As chaplain, Ryan will provide spiritual support and counseling for the crew, while his daughters, Evangeline and Seyla, attend the onboard Mercy Academy. This move, inspired by his childhood experiences in Germany and his faith journey, marks a thrilling yet daunting transition for the Moore family.

The Africa Mercy ship, operated by Mercy Ships, delivers essential medical care, including surgeries and rehabilitation, to communities in Madagascar and Sierra Leone. Ryan is particularly excited about the opportunity to serve in a global mission, reflecting his long-standing passion for helping others.

Fatherhood as Mentorship:

A Heartfelt Insight In the "Fatherhood Five," a segment of the podcast, Ryan describes fatherhood as "mentorship." He cherishes every hug from his daughters, seeing these moments as markers of his success as a father. Inspired by his faith and his own father, Ryan aims to instill confidence in his children, reminding fellow dads that perfection is impossible, but love is crucial.

He advises, "You'll never be fully ready. Just love on your kids and acknowledge your imperfections." This authentic and heartfelt approach encapsulates Ryan's philosophy on parenting, offering invaluable wisdom for dads navigating the complexities of raising daughters in today's world.
Ryan Moore's journey, as shared on the "Dads with Daughters" podcast, offers a wealth of insights for fathers everywhere. His experiences highlight the importance of empathetic communication, maintaining mental well-being, fostering healthy relationships, and embracing new adventures with faith and courage. As Ryan and his family prepare for their voyage with the Africa Mercy ship, his story stands as a testament to the profound impact of intentional and loving fatherhood.
TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dance with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, walk with you on this journey that you're on. You know, I've got 2 daughters. I know that you've got daughters as you're listening. And I'm hoping that every week as you're listening, you're taking some notes, you're jotting some things down, you're learning some things and you're finding some things that you can take for yourself that might help you in this journey that you're on because you don't have to do this alone. I've said that over and over and over again, and I'll keep saying it. We don't have to father alone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:57]:
You don't have to man up. You don't have to act like you know everything because none of us know everything when we walk into fatherhood, we have to learn it along the way. And that's what this podcast is all about. This podcast is all about helping each of us to be able to find that path that we want to walk on, but also to be able to learn from others that have walked on the path before us, but also are walking alongside us that are doing things and maybe a little bit different way than we might be doing that we can learn from grow from, and maybe take some things along the way from that can help us in that journey that we're on. Every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different dads that are walking this journey in a little bit different way that have different resources, different opportunities, different things that they can share with you. And today we've got another great guest. Ryan Moore is with us today. Ryan is a father of 5 and definitely a father of daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]:
So we're going to be talking to him about his own journey and his journey as a father to daughters and learn a little bit more about him. Ryan, thanks so much for joining us today.

Ryan Moore [00:02:00]:
Thanks, Chris. Yeah. Good to see you again. And I love what you're doing with the show. And, yeah, I love your vision for why you're doing this. It's very cool.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:06]:
Well, I love that we're able to reconnect and to be able to talk about fatherhood. I wanna turn the clock back in time to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a dad to a daughter. This is especially after having 3 sons.

Ryan Moore [00:02:19]:
Oh, yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]:
What was going through your head?

Ryan Moore [00:02:22]:
Oh, boy. Well, I didn't realize it right at first, but it was going to be a huge shift. The old saying is, every guy wants a son, but every man needs a daughter. And the biggest difference in my thinking was that with my boys, they're just little clones of me. And so when they're getting into stuff, you know, we knock each other around. We go on these adventures. And I almost imagine that I understand exactly what they're going through at any given moment in time because I've been there. But the moment that I started having daughters, everything's different.

Ryan Moore [00:02:54]:
I mean, all of a sudden, I don't know how to change a diaper again. I don't know how to respond to crises. I don't understand why feelings are popping up. And I think that was palpable from, I think, right away, even. Like once I knew we were I was about to have a daughter, I knew, okay, this is going to be a shift. This is gonna be an adventure. And it's an adventure that I was thrilled about. It was an adventure that my heart just, my heart just swelled with joyful anticipation.

Ryan Moore [00:03:22]:
And yeah, it's been a wonderful adventure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:24]:
Now a lot of dads that I talk to talk about that there is joy, but there's also some fear. And you had already had 3 boys along the way. So you'd gone through that experience of having children and understanding what it meant to be a father in that perspective. But what would you say was your biggest fear in raising daughters?

Ryan Moore [00:03:45]:
Oh, boy. Somehow my, I don't know, my maleness or my insensitivity or my, responses to things or the emotions that I carry with me as a guy would somehow arm my child. Like I said with my guys, we knock each other around and and then, you know, we come to like, if if we yell, we yell. If or if we're playing, we get a little rough. Or if, I have an opinion, they know about it. If they have opinion, I know about it. And then we we work through it, and that's good. Right? But that somehow I would harm my girls with the same process.

Ryan Moore [00:04:18]:
And, yeah, truly, I I did have to shift. Having daughters forced me immediately to reconsider how intentionally gentle I was being in communication, how intentionally thoughtful I was being with my word choice. Not to say that I didn't care with my boys, but like I said, they're little clones of me and I would I just automatically assume that heart to heart and mind to mind, we we get each other. And now that my boys are all adults, we do. We get each other. You know? And, yeah, with my girls, I've had to shift. It was definitely a shift. But it made me a better person.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:54]:
Now from the words that you're saying in knowing you as well, I can tell that you're a little more in tune with your feelings, and you're a little more in tune with who you are as a person. So I'm asking this in the sense of you stepping back and maybe not thinking about all the training that you've had over the years as a counselor, as a pastor, etcetera. But as you're thinking about that for yourself and being in tune with your daughters, what did you have to do? What were the some of those steps that you had to take intentionally that other dads can take as well as they have their daughters or are growing with their daughters and may not be at the same place you were in that training and such?

Ryan Moore [00:05:38]:
Yeah. It's funny. I am a licensed counselor and therapist and also, minister with the Assemblies of God. And all that to say, all the training and all the studies and and everything, it took me a master's degree just to get to the point where I was as good of a listener as my wife intuitively was already. So, like, I had to train to be I had to learn skills intentionally to be a good listener. A good illustration of this is my boys, we were not going to give them when we raise them, we had decided that we didn't want to raise violent children. So we were not going to give them toy guns. We were going to give them creative things, tools, Legos, whatever, building blocks.

Ryan Moore [00:06:21]:
And outside, they would go play. We live on 5 acres, and we kind of have a free range mentality for our kids. Go outside, play in the woods. It's good for you. And so they would go in the woods and play. At one point, everything became either a lightsaber or a gun. Everything. Every single stick they picked up was a lightsaber or a gun.

Ryan Moore [00:06:42]:
And once we had girls, everything became alive. Everything became a sentient being. Every clump of clay was a little character that had feelings, and every doll had opinions. And as these girls grew up, they grew up thinking about how this doll felt about that bear, And they would share experiences together, and this doll would share its opinion about how the tea tasted to the bear. Whereas, as my boys were growing and my girls were growing, I was watching them play. And as they got older and into teenage worlds, my girls were adapting their play into the real world, where now they're highly skilled at imagining what other people are thinking and feeling, and they're able to communicate. And my boys, you know, at the time being, late teens or whatever, were still outside hitting each other with sticks. So it's like there was this huge difference in the way thinking process naturally developed.

Ryan Moore [00:07:45]:
And I think the same was absolutely true for me. I grew up with 2 sisters and no brothers in a foreign country. And so I think I had a little bit of an advantage in learning how to intuit other people's thoughts and feelings because that was my core friend group overseas. And so it was a little easier for me, I think. And so I was always interested in trying to understand what other people were thinking and feeling, but it definitely took more skill and intent. And so, yeah, with my girls, I just had to stop and think about rather than just share bluntly what my thought process was on a thing or share bluntly what my opinion was on a thing, there was a certain rule set that benefited them that I had to enter into a certain civility that I had to understand to be able to engage on the level that they appreciated hearing. And that helped me be a much more effective father when I realized that they naturally had this, I guess, rules of engagement that they had worked out that I that I needed to, engage in. And God bless my wife, man, because she had to deal with those poor boys, you know, until I figured out that, okay, okay, I definitely need to, I definitely need to be more intentional with my word choice and my approach.

Ryan Moore [00:09:08]:
And again, I'm a counselor, so so you one would think that that I had the necessary tools to already begin a relationship with that in place. But yeah, no, sadly, I'm still getting there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:20]:
Now, as you think back to the time that you've had with your daughters thus far, you talked about your fears. What was the hardest part so far in being a father to a daughter?

Ryan Moore [00:09:29]:
I deeply wanted them to each just to be able to engage socially with other people, spiritually with their faith, And if I'm overzealous in any one area or really keen, I worry most about both how they interact with other people and how they interact with their faith and with the Lord. I just deeply want them to have healthy relationships in the way that that I've come to have a relationship in my faith, but also healthy relationships with their peers, because I see a lot of pitfalls. And I see that, you know, in my past, in my history, I engage in a lot of unhealthy relationships as a coping mechanism, be it drugs or inappropriately affectionate, too early, or all these different ways of regulating how I feel during difficult times. And so my strategy was be there as their father, be present as a father, be the father figure who dotes on them and loves them and fills them up so they don't have to go to the world to get that. But then from a position of fullness, help them navigate how to make good friends and how to choose supports that are appropriate and how to choose friend groups that are beneficial and that look out for them. And so, yeah, so that was my fear and my strategy for that. My fear was always, yeah, they're going to fall in a bad crowd. If I don't file appropriately, they're gonna rebel somehow and run into the bad crowd or whatnot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:54]:
Now you've been very busy in your career, You put a lot of heart and soul into the work that you do. And over the last few years, you've been kind of consumed by the work that you do. I should probably step back and say that currently, you do work within the Oxford Schools and have been very involved with helping kids that were impacted by the shootings that did occur on campus at the high school. So with all of that busyness, with all of the things that you put into the person that you are personally, professionally, talk to me about balance and how you have been able to find that balance for yourself to be able to be the father you wanna be while also giving your heart and soul to the work and the other passions that you have.

Ryan Moore [00:11:48]:
Bi vocational pastor for me means that on top of my full time job, I'm teaching Bible classes. I'm teaching I do weddings every now and then, or I do premarital counseling, or I do all these things that a pastor would do on top of the what's on paper meant to be a 40 hour work week. Now anybody in education knows, Chris is laughing visibly at me right now because he knows where I'm going. Anybody who works with education knows that there's no such thing as a 40 hour workweek within education because traditionally, boundaries are very blurred between work life and personal life because educators don't get into education for work life. Educators get into education for personal reasons. Nobody gets into education because of the money. It's not a business transaction. It's a passion.

Ryan Moore [00:12:32]:
And so when COVID hit, always in the past, I had been struggling with, do I wanna pursue more administrative pursuits within education, or do I wanna pursue ministry? So I've been a school counselor for 20 years and a therapist for 20 years. And I love what I do. I love being able to connect with kids who benefit from the support. I love being able to to help young people figure out how to become a productive citizen or a contributing member to society. I love helping them discover their giftings and their callings and their passions and their skills to figure out, well, how does that practically fit into society? That's what drives me as a school counselor. That's what I love doing. I love helping people grow as a young adult. And so very passionate about that.

Ryan Moore [00:13:16]:
During my career, I picked up an an ed specialist degree to pursue public school leadership, And I thought, well, you know what? This is not a fork in the road for ministry versus school leadership because I can use this if I go into ministry, that led to a position of dean of students at Oxford High School. So when I first that led to a position of dean of students at Oxford High School. So when I first started working for Oxford, it was as the dean of students at the high school. And which was great because that position was just dealing with discipline. It was basically enforcement of the school code of conduct was, bottom line, the job description. And what that meant practically was busting into bathrooms to see who's vaping and and checking backpacks for for vapes and whatnot. And so it put me in touch with, I I feel like, the kids who really needed that one person at the school to care about them. So I felt like I was in a unique position to be very effective in that role.

Ryan Moore [00:14:15]:
But what I missed was the fact that I would not be able to be the person providing that care because I wasn't in a council role. And I did well in the role for 2 years. I enjoyed a lot of aspects of it. Didn't enjoy some aspects of it. But after 2 years, I was ready to get back into counseling. So when COVID hit, I shifted back into the counseling role at working for Oxford Virtual Academy, which is one of the schools in the district. And we trade a lot of students back and forth. Oxford Virtual and Oxford High School do.

Ryan Moore [00:14:43]:
And then I also decided that time to begin pursuing my master's of divinity. And that was kind of the fork in the road for me. And then a year after that is when the shooting happened at Oxford High School. And when the shooting happened at Oxford at Oxford High School. And when the shooting happened at Oxford High School, all of us counselors just dove in head first. And we gave all of our time and all of our energy and all of our passion to helping these kids. And it did take a huge mental toll. When I came home from that, I was not able to really shift well into family life on a day to day as I had previously.

Ryan Moore [00:15:14]:
When I was working as a Dean of Students, I was able to shut it off, right? I was able to, you know, we're dealing with rules, we're dealing with violations, and we're dealing with the person. Okay. You broke a rule. Here's a consequence. But let's help let's help reconnect you. Let's do some sort of practice. I could leave that alone at the end of the day. It was never so traumatic that it stuck with me as I left the building.

Ryan Moore [00:15:33]:
And there was very little that I would have to do after hours. But when the tragedy struck, it was nonstop. And so that was a huge challenge. 2 of the things, actually, I should say that that helped me out. I always made sure that we had board game night. So growing up, I was kind of a nerd, and I really liked, you know, I liked D and D. I liked, board games. I liked chess.

Ryan Moore [00:15:55]:
I liked, there was this little tabletop game called Hero Quest and march your little guy, your little warrior around to fight orcs and whatnot. You roll your dice and risk access and allies and that stuff. Loved it. Monopoly. So that whole hobby had shifted into some amazing strategy games. And I actually did my ed specialist research on that, on how strategy games can be used to mitigate the educational loss of poverty. That's a whole different topic. But I decided early on that this would be a good tool to engage with my kids on an intellectual level the whole way growing up.

Ryan Moore [00:16:29]:
Like, so at any developmental level, there is a developmentally appropriate game that allows me to get on their intellectual strategic level. And through these strategy games, we can process risk assessment. We can process basic statistic principles. We can process valuation of things, and we can process geometric and spatial thinking, depending on the game, of tactics and all these metacognitive processes because after the game, we always kind of debrief our strategies. Oh, I could have done this different. And so once a week, we always tried to have a board game night. And so even when things got crazy and rough, we would always try to have some night a week where we would all reconnect. Another is, you know, one of the benefits of working for the schools is that, yeah, we all agree that we're giving way too much time to a school.

Ryan Moore [00:17:20]:
So summertime, don't call me. Summertime, I'm not a school counselor. Summertime, I am off the clock. And we disappear. And so we, my family and I had gotten into this amazing pattern of taking month long road trips. A lot of my family is from Canada and a lot of my family has land and cottages up there that we frequently visit. But also there's this amazing resource that all of us in this country have a free access to, and that's our national park system. And, so we load up the van and I let the kids pick a destination that they want to explore.

Ryan Moore [00:17:53]:
You wanna go explore mountains? Okay. We're driving to the Rockies and we're gonna find some national forests. It's free to camp in the national forests. So we became, very good at finding spots to explore and hike that didn't cost anything. You know, 5 kids and a school counselor salary. We needed to run on a budget, and so we really got good at adventures. And so in the summertime, the 7 of us learned how to really, get along in enclosed spaces and do some physically challenging things out in the woods, or, exploring cultural locations, or, just getting to know this country really well. And so they really got to know me on a personal level through those weekly interactions and through the summer.

Ryan Moore [00:18:36]:
And then the third thing is always our church. Regardless of where I've gone through, we've gone to different churches at different times based on what our family needed and and these different churches had offered. But always we become involved and my, my kids will watch the pattern of involvement that my wife and I present to them. And they'll learn from that and jump in. And I mean, every church we've been to, my kids have been as involved as we are. So, you know, I'm thinking of 1 church where, you know, my girl's working in the nursery. 1 of my guys is running the sound. 1 of my guys is on stage doing drums.

Ryan Moore [00:19:09]:
And, you know, like every kid I do the school counselor thing, I guess, of trying to figure out where each one's personality, giftings, and passions can have a place at play in, in a church service or in the operation of a church. And I help them plug in. And so they own the church as much as I do. Right? And so, so faith and church organization actually becomes an extension of my mentorship to these little humans. And again, it just becomes a neat way on a Sunday for them to see who I am and and for them to learn from who I am by doing stuff. But working in the school, yeah, they really want your time. And I think that was probably the biggest decision maker. When I was observing principals and talking specifically with principals about this, I heard the theme, they really want your whole life.

Ryan Moore [00:19:59]:
They really want you to donate all your time. And it's like, well, gosh, that time belongs to my wife and kids. So how does one reconcile that? Oh, no, no. Your family life is out the window. You're not allowed to. And so that became one of the biggest things to help me realize that school administration was not the passion that I was going to pursue. But also, I just love teaching the bible, and I love doing all that. So that that that, you know, that that became one of the main reasons I wanted to go into ministry as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]:
Some of the things that you were talking about really have led you in a new direction. You're going to be leaving your current position as a counselor in the school, and you're going to be moving your entire family onto a ship. You're going to be getting involved with Mercy Ships and getting involved in a brand new ministry opportunity that is going to take especially you, your partner, and your 2 girls on an adventure overseas. So talk to me a little bit about this and what made you kind of led you into this. I know that when you were a kid, you grew up in Germany and had that cultural experience and I'm sure that that is leading some of this decision making. But talk to me about what led you to now moving into this experience for you, for your family, for your daughters to give them this experience in their lives?

Ryan Moore [00:21:23]:
Yeah. So my dad worked for GM, and so we were in Germany for about 4 years. And when I was in Germany, I was that weird kid with the American accent. And then we moved to Ohio, and I was the weird kid with the German accent. And then we moved to Michigan in high school, and then I was a weird kid with the Ohio accent and slightly German. And, yeah. So, I never quite fit in. And you remember me, Chris.

Ryan Moore [00:21:44]:
In high school, there were 2 Ryan Moores. And one Ryan Moore was, affectionately referred to as the smart Ryan Moore. And I don't know if you if you remember the nickname that I was given. I don't mind sharing it. It was the stoner Ryan Moore was the nickname that I was given, because that was how I coped with really challenging feelings. And also, that was the culture that I decided to engage with because I calculated, like, oh, these people are having fun. I know exactly how to engage with that. And so I made a strategic decision to engage with that culture in the way that I did, and it worked.

Ryan Moore [00:22:19]:
It provided me with support and whatnot. But, you know, like, it also left a lot of holes and everything. And then fast forward a little bit, and I had an experience in faith, total conversion of my life, and everything changed. I think you probably knew me right at the crossroads of that time, and so I think my last few years of high school, I was walking a very serious faith as a Christian, and my whole life changed. And and so that was another cultural shift. I lost a lot of friends during that process, and that's who I am today. My wife and I got married when she was 21 and I was 22. And we both wanted to do ministry work.

Ryan Moore [00:22:55]:
We moved to South Carolina and we visited what was at the time the Caribbean Mercy. The Caribbean Mercy was a hospital ship and their mission was help the lame to walk and to restore the sight to the blind. A a biblical Jesus message. And so they would go all through the Caribbean doing surgeries, removing cataracts, and repairing leg deformities. Just this amazing ministry. We're like, we're gonna do this. We wanna do this. And so that's what we decided we were gonna do as young married couple.

Ryan Moore [00:23:19]:
And then she got pregnant. And so, we had to pause our application, and this is our first kid. And they said, well, you know, have your kid take a couple years and then come back because you don't want to be pregnant on the ship. Well, in a couple years, obviously, she was pregnant again. And a couple years after that, she was pregnant again. And this kept happening. And, so we moved back to Michigan. I became a counselor, took a job, and we became this all American family where we had a dog, some acreage, and a house, which was never the plan for us.

Ryan Moore [00:23:47]:
And we loved it, though, and we treasured it. And it was amazing, but it was totally not expected from the very beginning. And so, now all of our kids are older, and we're looking around, and it's like, you know what? This dream that we had, we can shift again, and this might actually work. And I started talking to my girls about it, and they loved the idea. So as a 3rd culture kid, that's the term for somebody who, like I did when I moved overseas, I had the culture of origin, which was Ohio, that we moved from to Germany. And then I had the culture of Germany, which was the kids in that neighborhood. And then I had the 3rd culture is the culture that we invent. So which is this group of people that have a similar transient experience, and you can all relate to one another being a third culture kid because this experience of transience, this experience of not belonging, but this instant recognition with other kids who have this cultural, intercultural, inter cross boundary understanding of the world.

Ryan Moore [00:24:45]:
They get you, and you get them right away. And so that was really cool. And I really appreciated that part of my upbringing, because even now, I feel like I just feel like that's part of my personality, that big changes don't bother me. I love interacting with cultures that are not my own. I love bridging gaps between various cultures, ethnicities, languages, etcetera. And it's a joy of mine, and I think a lot of third culture kids experience that. So I wanted some kind of experience like that for my own kids, and now my girls get to do something like that. So my Evangeline, she has a very strong faith, and she loves kids.

Ryan Moore [00:25:19]:
And so she's been saying things like, I wanna be a missionary, or I wanna be a teacher, or I wanna be a nurse for kids overseas. At one point, she came and was like, dad, wouldn't it be cool if I was running an orphanage? I'm like, yes. That would be amazing. And so when Mercy Ships now when she thinks about going over there, she's gonna be observing these nurses that help kids and teachers that work with kids in that kind of setting. And so she's just through the roof about the opportunities that that will firsthand bring to her. Let me backtrack a little bit. Mercy Ships is now a fleet of 2 ships. The Caribbean Mercy has long been decommissioned.

Ryan Moore [00:25:56]:
And so now it's the Africa Mercy and the Global Mercy, and these ships are so much bigger than the Caribbean ever was. The Africa Mercy can sleep, I think, 500, and the Global can sleep 600. That's the newest flagship. But the position I'm taking is chaplain aboard the Africa Mercy, And the Africa Mercy right now is in Madagascar. I think the Global Mercy is in Sierra Leone. And so the Africa Mercy just began her field service in Madagascar. And in May, she'll begin doing surgeries. And there's something like 1200 people signed up for surgery currently.

Ryan Moore [00:26:28]:
And so in a 9 month field service, they do all these surgeries, mainly maxillofacial surgeries, or I know they do some dental surgeries. They remove tumors. They fix cleft palates. They're still doing a lot of the leg work. And then in this 9 month field service, they also do the most of the, or a large portion of the rehab, the physical rehab post surgery. And then during this whole time, they're also training people on land, training locals to run clinics, and then they donate all of their gear, all of their equipment to these local clinics. So at the end of that field service, you've got all these clinics trained for recovery, and then the ship leaves and goes and restocks and picks a new port of call for the next round of field service. Well, there's gonna be 2 field services in Madagascar back to back this time, And we'll be joining them towards the end of the first one in July.

Ryan Moore [00:27:17]:
Me as the chaplain and my wife as what's called the primary caretaker for our girls, which is a required position when you bring kids. But she's also a hairdresser, and she's also quite skilled in HR. She's always done, like, church volunteer coordination. And so she's very interested in a position on board for helping people onboard and helping people transition into Shiplife. And so that is something that she's looking forward to doing. But our girls are, they're very excited. My younger, Sala, she's the 14 year old. She's just the easygoing one.

Ryan Moore [00:27:48]:
She's just the up for anything one. And so right now we started selling all of our stuff. And so it's starting to feel real. And so the loss of it is starting to hit, right? Because a transition like that is all about a balance between excitement for the new thing, but also loss and mourning for what is disappearing from your life, like all your old friends and all your stuff. And so she's feeling it now. She's going up and down. And so, you know, the emotions are coming out of nowhere for both of my girls. I'm just in mission mode right now.

Ryan Moore [00:28:14]:
I'm just in like, go, go, go mode. But they're in this like, yeah, real excited. But then like, oh no, my friends are, yeah, this is going to be amazing. And then, oh, I'm gonna miss all my stuff. I have to give away 90% of my things. And so it's a real emotional roller coaster, but still with the theme of hope and joy for the work that's before us. So they're still on board. That's expected as one begins a transition like that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:39]:
So talk to me about this journey and how long you're going to be on it and what your role is going to be, and how your kids are going to be involved in that.

Ryan Moore [00:28:49]:
Okay. So with the surgeries, most of the people on ship are either serving in a ship crew capacity or a medical capacity. And I'll be taking the chaplain role, which is essentially ship's pastor for all the crew. So there's a chaplaincy team for the crew, and then there's a hospital chaplaincy team for the patients, and I will be one of the chaplain team for the crew. And so I'll be helping run services on the Sundays. I'll be doing a lot of counseling. I'll actually be starting out. My position will be what's called a chaplaincy counselor, and so I'll be handling transitions and mental health crises and difficult moments and things like that.

Ryan Moore [00:29:27]:
So and one of the things I'm really excited about there is the fact that there's 32 nations represented on board. And so the American component is just a small fraction of the crew. Significant portion of the crew is Great Britain, Dutch. There's a significant African representation, some Asian representation, and some South American representation. 32 different nations. And I think of any church I've ever been to. And there's always conflict because no matter where you go, there's always people, and, you know, people have conflict. And in church, conflict is dealt with with certain agreements and rules and, you know, the Holy Spirit guiding you.

Ryan Moore [00:30:08]:
And so I'm really interested when you mix in also the communication, ethnic, linguistic, cultural differences of 32 different nations. I'm very excited to, to help bridge that gap. You know, I feel like this is like, gosh, I feel like all the things I've ever done, I feel like are going to be used in making this job work. And I don't know. I just feel like it's, it's what I it's a job I've been looking for my whole life, if that makes sense. It's it's a dream job. It's definitely a dream job. And so 2 years, I've committed to a 2 year term aboard the Africa Mercy.

Ryan Moore [00:30:42]:
So that'll be both field services of Madagascar and a 3rd field service yet to be determined location wise. But really, if we love it, we'll stay. And if they love us, we'll probably stay. But it it's hard to predict the future. Right? But I have committed to 2 years. And so in those 2 years, Evangeline will be in her junior and senior year. And, so there's the African I'm sorry. There's the, the Mercy Academy, which is an accredited academy both in the States and in Europe.

Ryan Moore [00:31:11]:
And so we could pursue, depending on where she thinks she might want to go to college 2 years from now, we could pursue diploma credentials for either, school setting. And yeah, it's apparently very rigorous and she's up for the challenge. And then my younger, Seyla, 14 years old, will be a freshman. So she'll have her freshman and sophomore years on board. And we're ready to jump into that. The girls, like I said, they're very excited. Seyla doesn't quite know what she wants to study yet, but she's interested in the nursing, and she's interested in the medical. And so she was interested in seeing how those careers look and potentially going in that direction in the future.

Ryan Moore [00:31:49]:
But she's my only one that we really don't know yet just because she's happy with everything. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. But my wife, like I said, she's always gotten into different volunteer organizer roles. Every church we've gone to, she's kind of been the, the one to organize people and, and help them figure out how to plug into different positions. And, she's excellent at it. And she's she's got education in business administration. And so she falls into that role neatly. But more than anything, she likes working with people, and she likes getting to know people.

Ryan Moore [00:32:18]:
So it's not like she wants to be doing a business thing behind the scenes, but working directly with people to help them figure out how to plug in. So she's very interested in that. And then when people find out that she's a hairdresser, as we're meeting people on ship right now through Zoom meetings and through training meetings online, once they find out she's a hairdresser, they all kind of go a little bit nuts because they really want a hairdresser on board as well. So I'm sure she will get her arm twisted into that role again. And she loves doing that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:42]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. You ready?

Ryan Moore [00:32:49]:
Okay. Let's go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:50]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Ryan Moore [00:32:52]:
Mentorship.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:53]:
When was the time that you finally felt that you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Ryan Moore [00:32:57]:
Oh, I think every time they gave me a big old hug. Every time I get a hug from my daughters, I feel like, alright, I'm doing something right.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:04]:
Now if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?

Ryan Moore [00:33:08]:
Oh, they'd hopefully say that I was funny, kind, adventurous, and challenging. I hope.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:16]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Ryan Moore [00:33:17]:
Yeah. I mean, you've heard me talk about my faith a lot. And, you know, there's for me, there's no better example than than how much God loves us. And the biblical example we have of a loving father is is my standard. Gosh. I've got my dad is an amazing provider, and my dad is an amazing problem solver. And though our personalities are drastically different and our approaches at things are drastically different, instinctively, growing up, I always knew that no matter how bad things would get, I had a safety net. He would always be there.

Ryan Moore [00:33:49]:
He would always be able to provide. He would always be able to drop everything and rescue me should I should I ask for it? And that has given me a sense of I can do anything. Because at the very least, I know if I totally screw this all up, my dad will take me in. So I strive to be that. I strive to give my my kids a self of confidence in that same way as my dad did and does to say, go out there, do anything. And what's the worst that can happen? You come back, and I give you a great big hug, and we try again. My dad's an inspiration for that, for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:28]:
Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things for all of us to think about in the way that we father. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you wanna give to every father?

Ryan Moore [00:34:37]:
You're not ready. You'll never be ready. Yeah. You've screwed up already. And you'll continue to screw up. Just oh, boy. Yep. So lean into that that being a fact.

Ryan Moore [00:34:48]:
Get yourself up and just love on those girls. There's no perfect father. Well, there's a perfect father. I'm not it. That's for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:57]:
Well, thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your own journey as a father, and I wish you all the best.

Ryan Moore [00:35:03]:
Chris, it's been my pleasure and great to reconnect again. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:05]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:04]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and muscle men. Get out and be the dad you can be.
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Embracing Emotion: Fatherhood Journeys with Demetrius and Quentarious Jones
22 juil.· Dads With Daughters
Parenting, particularly fatherhood, is a journey laden with challenges, emotions, and an unwavering sense of responsibility. In the latest episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, I welcome Quentarious Jones and Demetrius Roe Jones of the Not Your Average Girl Dad Podcast we delve deep into the nuances of raising daughters. They offer listeners not only their personal experiences but also invaluable advice on how fathers can maintain strong, emotional connections with their daughters while growing themselves.

Fostering Emotional Connections

One of the primary themes discussed in this episode is the importance of fathers understanding and connecting with their daughters' emotions. Both Quentarious and Demetrius opened up about the challenges they faced in expressing vulnerability, stemming from their own upbringings. They emphasize that showing emotion isn't a weakness but a strength that fosters deeper connections with their daughters.

Quentarious reflected, "Embracing and expressing my emotions has been a journey not just for my well-being, but for the emotional health of my daughters." This insight aligns with Dr. Lewis's message — that fathers should be consistent and willing to show vulnerability. Embracing this openness allows daughters to feel understood, supported, and emotionally secure.

The Challenge of Understanding Emotions

Raising daughters brings unique emotional challenges. Quentarious and Demetrius highlighted their initial fears and concerns upon learning they were going to be fathers. The fear of not being able to protect their daughters, especially from emotional pain, weighed heavily on them.

Demetrius shared his struggle with showing vulnerability, rooted in a strict upbringing. He realized that breaking this cycle was essential for his relationship with his daughters. He mentioned, "I grew up thinking that showing emotion was for the weak. But, understanding that being open and vulnerable is okay has been a revelation. It's something I want my daughters to see and learn."

These experiences underline the importance for fathers to better understand emotions, both their own and their daughters'. It's about breaking down societal norms that equate masculinity with stoicism and instead fostering an environment where emotional expression is encouraged and valued.

The Role of Fathers: More Than Just Providers

Another critical point discussed was the perception of fathers as mere providers. The hosts argue that fatherhood goes beyond financial support; it encompasses being an emotional pillar, a mentor, and a steadfast presence in their children's lives.

Dr. Lewis pointed out, "Being a father isn't just about providing; it's about being present and emotionally available. Our daughters need to see that we care, that we're here for them, not just in good times but through adversity too."

This paradigm shift from provider to an emotionally available guardian is vital. Fathers who engage with their daughters' emotional worlds help build their daughters' confidence and emotional resilience.

Not Showing Favoritism

Throughout their conversation, the topic of not showing favoritism among children was underscored. Both Quentarious and Demetrius spoke about the delicate balance needed to treat each child fairly. Quentarious noted, "It's important that our daughters feel valued and equally loved. Favoritism can create rifts that last a lifetime."

Avoiding favoritism involves understanding and appreciating each child's unique personality, needs, and emotions. This approach not only fosters individual growth but also strengthens familial bonds.

Faith and Leadership: Core Elements

As fathers and hosts of the "Not Your Average Girl Dad" podcast, Quentarious and Demetrius frequently discuss the intersection of fatherhood, faith, and leadership. Their podcast was born from regular conversations about life, music, and their roles as fathers, husbands, and leaders within their communities.

Discussing faith, they highlighted its role in navigating tough times. The duo believes that faith offers a foundation and a guiding light for fathers. "Having faith and finding joy in difficult situations is essential," emphasized Quentarious.

Their goal is to inspire other fathers by sharing principles they've learned and lived by. They hope that emphasizing faith and family in their podcast will resonate with their listeners.

The latest episode of "Dads with Daughters" is a treasure trove of wisdom for fathers navigating the complex landscape of raising daughters. As Quentarious, Demetrius, and Dr. Lewis share their stories and advice, one message stands clear: Fatherhood is an evolving journey that requires openness, emotional availability, and a commitment to learning.

Whether it's through fostering emotional connections, challenging societal norms, or drawing strength from faith, fathers play a pivotal role in shaping their daughters' lives. The insights shared in this episode serve as a reminder of the profound impact that an emotionally present, understanding, and faithful father can have. Fathers, you're not alone on this journey — reach out, connect, and continue growing.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to be here with you, to be able to talk with you, to work with you, to help you on this journey that you're on. And I say help, but really you're helping me too because by having this show, I have the opportunity to have amazing guests here, and I learn from them just as much as I'm hoping that you learn from them as well. And that's what it's all about. It you know, what's so important is that you and I know that we don't have to do this alone. Because so often in society today, we have this feeling that to be that amazing dad, you gotta you gotta man up. You gotta just push forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]:
You gotta do it and gotta know everything the moment your child's born. And the answer is you really don't, because you're not gonna know everything the moment your child is born. You're gonna fail many times, and that's okay. But you've got so many men around you that are fathers too and have done this. And if you're willing to let down your guard a little bit, we could use the v word right now. I've used it before. If You're willing to be a little vulnerable in saying, hey. I don't get this, or I don't got this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]:
And you're willing to talk to some other dads around you, you're gonna learn a lot. And that's why why this show exists is to to be here, to be that resource for you, to let you be able to connect with other dads that have different experiences. And that's why every week we have different guests that we bring on to share their own experiences. And today we got 2 more great dads with us today. Demetrius Jones and Quinterius Jones are both with us today. They are both fathers of daughters. Demetrius has 3 daughters. Quinterius has 2 daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:04]:
So we got a lot of daughters in the house, and and we're gonna be talking about the journeys that they have been on. And, also, we're gonna talk about a podcast that they do together called not your average girl dad podcast. So we're gonna be talking about that as well. So I'm really excited to have them here, guys. Thanks so much for being here today.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:02:20]:
Thanks for having us.

Quentarious Jones [00:02:23]:
Yeah. Thank you for having us, Chris. We really appreciate it. Very exciting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]:
So I wanna turn the clock back in time on both of you because you have daughters. And, Demetrius, you've got 3. Quentarius, you've got 2. So I wanna turn back the clock all the way back to that first moment when you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through both your heads?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:02:43]:
Well, I'll start first. When I found out I was going to be a dad, I was excited, actually. Because long story short, the doctor said we won't be able to have any kids. So my first child was literally my miracle child and we named her miracle. So I was excited. I was a little nervous, but I remember when it was getting closer and closer for the first time in a long time, I got butterfly in my stuff. I was excited. Yeah.

Quentarious Jones [00:03:09]:
I would say the same. It was one of those things where I knew I always wanted kids. And my first thought was, okay, we're gonna have a son. I was like, I wanna have a son first girl, then another son. So I, at first I wanted 3 kids and to find out that, okay, we're having a girl. It was shocking. I was like, Hey, you know, you always have that, that 50, 50, but I was like, wow, okay, we're having a girl. So I was like, this is gonna be pretty cool.

Quentarious Jones [00:03:30]:
One of the strangest things, and I kinda shared this on one of our episodes is that I actually had a dream about Kalani before she was born. So I didn't know her name was gonna be Kalani at the time, but I had a dream about her and she turned out to be the same little girl in my dream. And I just thought that was, wow. That's that was pretty cool, but it was an exciting time for us. It gave me a sense of real responsibility really quick. So it's been a joy being a girl dad. Been a joy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:04]:
So one of the things that I think that I was gonna that I am kind of interested in knowing, and this is something that I talk to a lot of dads about, is that when I talk to dads about being dads with daughters, a lot of times they talk about that there is a fear to being a dad to a daughter. What would you say were both of your biggest fears in raising daughters?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:04:24]:
My biggest fear is that I can't protect them at all times. I am so over protect them. It's like the smallest little thing. And it's like, what do you mean I have to go without me? What do you mean? Like, she was like, my wife was like, you know, you're a bitch. You have to go back to work. I was like, well, I'm taking them with me, you know? So it's just the fear of not being able to protect them all the time, but I just have to trust that God's watching over them and that he can protect them in ways that I can't. So that's my biggest fear.

Quentarious Jones [00:04:53]:
I think I share a similar fear, but I would say more so just knowing that, and I'm kind of biased, of course, because I'm their dad, but just knowing that one day, hopefully, they will get married and just hoping that that guy can be anywhere close to what I provide for my daughters from a spiritual level, from a financial level, from a mental level. It's just being able to support them in a way that I know that I can and investing in them to be strong young women in the society that we live in. And so just hoping that they find someone that sees them as the jewels that they are. And so my fear would be is them not finding that someone and being maybe manipulated into or settling for something that I know that they can have more of or have a better situation with someone. So just hoping that they find someone that can that can bring that to the table.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]:
Now fatherhood is never easy. It has its ups, its downs, and in betweens. And we were talking before about that about when they're young and they don't sleep and you barely keep your eyes open. So what's been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter thus far?

Quentarious Jones [00:06:09]:
I'm gonna say the endless emotion. The spectrum of emotions. And because for me growing up, I haven't always been, and I can admit that I haven't always been, that in tune with my emotions. So having daughters has definitely opened me up to feeling more or being more in tune with my feelings. And learning that with them, everything matters is always something. And sometimes where they may whine about things that in my mind, I'm like, I don't think there's anything to whine about, but taking the time to sit down with them and really understand them as where they where they are. My wife helped me see this one time when we were, going through a situation with my oldest daughter when she was going to school, and she was having a tough time adjusting to starting school for the 1st few months. And we had a rough time getting up in the morning on the way to school, a lot of crying, a lot of I don't wanna go.

Quentarious Jones [00:07:07]:
And my wife helped me see, even though I know they're human, she just told me, she's like, hey, Quinn. You just gotta think. She's a human just like you're human. Some days you're gonna have tough days. You're gonna have rough days. And her way of expressing it may be a little bit different from you because you're older and you kinda understand that you're not gonna cry about everything, but her way of expressing herself is through her tears. And so that helped me gain a little bit more patience with my daughters. And so I think that's the biggest challenge is just learning that they're humans just like we are.

Quentarious Jones [00:07:40]:
They're just smaller humans, and they have their mood. They have their feelings and just learning to navigate them so that you can help meet them where they are and get the best out of the situation.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:07:51]:
I would say trying to figure out each one of their many personalities. I have 3 beautiful girls and they have 3 totally different personalities. My oldest child, she's real pretty and I don't want to touch that. That's dirty and things of that nature. My middle child, she's kinda like tomboyish, like love playing in the dirt. And then my youngest is just bossy. You know, she's just like, I want it now. Give it to me.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:08:21]:
And so it's just trying to figure them all out. And another thing, vulnerable, having a vulnerable moment is try not to show favoritism. Treating them all the same. I'm not gonna lie. It's hard at times because especially with my certain one, I could have my first, you know, that's your first. That's your priority. But you have to treat all of them the same. If one is no, all is no.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:08:45]:
If one is yes, all is there. You get 1 piece of candy, gotta give all of them piece of candy. And so that's been the biggest challenge to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:53]:
Well, then I'll tell you both. I mean, things don't change that much as they get older, and you're gonna have to keep being consistent as parents. You're going to have to keep working day in and day out to figure out the personalities and the emotions get even worse as they get into their teenage years. So you definitely have to kind of ride the wave and be willing to ride the wave. You know, one one of my past guests said this, and I've said this numerous times with different guests. And in a conversation that I had had with with a author, she said to me that one of the things that dads need to think about, especially dads with daughters need to think about, is the fact that so many of us as men are programmed innately to be fixers. So we go into situations always with the mentality of how can I fix this? And our daughters and our partners in life don't always want us to fix things. And you at times need to go into the conversations, especially with your daughters with the concept of asking your daughters when you're sitting down with them, is this a fixing conversation? Or is this a listening conversation? And let them decide.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:07]:
And that was a moment. And it was I got it later in life, and I wish that I had got it earlier in life because I think that I would have incorporated that earlier because I had incorporated it when I found out about it. In my daughter's teenage years, they probably would have looked at me like I was an alien. And that they would have been like, stop using your psychobabble on me, dad. But if you have a younger daughter, that is a definite. Think about using that because it is something that I think will make a huge difference in how you communicate with the females in your life. I'm not just saying your daughters. I'm saying the females in your life.

Quentarious Jones [00:10:45]:
And I think that's good because I kinda learned that with my wife. And now that you're saying that I never really looked at it that way for my daughters in the same way. So I can definitely take that advice because I I do that a lot with my wife. It's like, hey. I have to ask. I pause because I know I I wanna fix it. I'm that type of person, and I kinda just have the personality that I always wanna help someone because I always wanna I'm always in the state of, hey, how can I help you? How can I get you out of this rut? And so for her, sometimes it's just, I don't really wanna be out of the rut right now. I just kinda wanna blow off steam.

Quentarious Jones [00:11:21]:
And so I I use that with my with my wife, but I never thought of using it with my 2 daughters. So that's great advice. Great advice.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:11:29]:
I think the same thing. I never thought about it with my daughters. I've have had to learn to let my wife vent and let her just get it off her chest. Because you know what me, I'm like, I'm just like, what's the purpose of it? And if you still got the problem, I want the solution, but I realized that why is maybe a little different. So I say, okay, man. And then if you want me to ask, I had learned, they'll ask. Oh, you want my answer? Okay. So I get my solution there.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:11:52]:
So I've that is good. I never thought about to actually apply that with my daughters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:56]:
Now, Contreras, you meant you made the comment that one of the things you had to really work on yourself was to kinda let down your guard a bit, be a bit more vulnerable, and let out your emotions more because that's not something that comes easy for you. So talk to me about what you had to do to move in that direction because you're not the only guy that has had that issue or has that issue. But what did you have to do to start moving down that path?

Quentarious Jones [00:12:25]:
I think step number 1 was first kinda just looking in the mirror and saying, this isn't healthy for you. It's not healthy for you to bottle up your emotions and not express yourself when you feel certain emotions because something that I learned in life is that God gives us emotions. And so it's not about trying to suppress the emotions all the time. It's about learning how to navigate the emotions and express them in the proper way. And so that's one of the things that I first had to come to grips with is, hey. This isn't healthy for you, and it's not gonna be good for your daughters if you're not fully engaged or with your emotions in a way to where you can properly understand them, navigate them, and then help them because they're gonna have emotions. And as they're navigating through life as they're growing, they they wanna know, okay. So how when I feel this way, if I'm angry, how to not, okay, hit someone when I'm angry or when I'm happy, how to be happy and to express being happy, like, with my smile, with my joy.

Quentarious Jones [00:13:26]:
I, you know, I wanna express these things in a proper way. And so that was one way. The first thing that I had to do was just come to grips with myself to say, hey. We wanna be healthy. And then and then using that, just it kinda sounds weird, but practicing it with my family. Right? So practicing that every single day, being intentional about when I feel a certain way, being honest with it. Like, for example, I shared earlier when we was going through the time with her going to school, it was frustrating to have so many mornings where you would think that I'm doing everything right. I'm getting up earlier.

Quentarious Jones [00:14:03]:
Sometimes we'll play, like, jingles in the morning to kinda get the emotions going, and then we still get to these moments where, okay, we were running late to school or it was just like a tantrum that morning. And so I had to understand that, okay, every single day is a day of practice, and it gives me an opportunity to continue to work on, hey, how can we navigate these emotions here? And so that's kind of how I did that.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:14:27]:
But me, I had to do a lot of going back in digging up my past. I had a very hard dad. I mean, this man was like Joe Jackson times 10. He, you couldn't. Oh Lord. So with that, I love my dad. I love him. He was a great father.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:14:48]:
But with that, I wasn't allowed to show emotion. And he never verbally said it, but that's pretty much how I took it. And so I would bottle things up and I would bottle things up. And so what I had to do was I had to learn that it's okay to show emotion. It's okay to cry. You know, a lot of, mirror. Yeah. I'm I'm a hard man.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:15:09]:
No, like cry. It's okay. Like, and so able to learn how to allow my emotions to flow. Then I was better able to empathize with my wife, empathize with my girls. Okay. I know how this would make me feel so I can understand the emotion that you feel right now. Or even if I can't understand it, I at least empathize that you have this emotion right now. And so I'm going to do my best to respect that and honor that.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:15:38]:
And so once I was able to unpack a lot of that stuff, and that helped me to flow better with dealing with my, you know, my my girls and my wife and things of that nature.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:47]:
Now the 2 of you have known each other for a long time And the 2 of you came together just a little while back and came together to create a podcast. And I mentioned this at the beginning of the show today, the not your average girl dad podcast. Talk to me about the genesis story of this and why the 2 of you decided that you wanted to come together to have these conversations.

Quentarious Jones [00:16:09]:
So it was birth from just Roski and I I'm caller Roski. We so we met in college. We we we went to Albany State University in Albany, Georgia. It's like we were meant to be bros. It was just meant to be. He he used to work at, the Subway on campus. And E fresh. And he used to sing these jingles.

Quentarious Jones [00:16:34]:
He had this jingle. Every time he came in, you knew you would get a laugh and you'd get a great sub from Roski. And so we bonded on campus. We became really good friends. We was also attending the same church at the time. And from there we find out that we had some very common interests. And one of the interests that bonded us is like Christian hip hop. And so we became really tight about about that.

Quentarious Jones [00:17:00]:
And from there, we just became really great friends. So how do we get to the podcast? As we continued our friendship throughout the years, we will always have these amazing conversations on the phone. It's not the goal. Like we would call each other for something quick. Like, Hey bro, I just wanna call you. See, did you hear the new new song that dropped by Lecrae or the new song from Swoop or the new song from KB? And so we would just talk about the music, but from that conversation, we would end up just talking about life and just talking about what we're learning as husbands and what we're learning in ministry. And then, eventually as he expounded, we're learning as dads. And so we share these long conversations and we'd be on the phone like 2 hours.

Quentarious Jones [00:17:41]:
And then one day we was just like, I don't know. What do we just take our conversation to a podcast? And one day I just was I was driving down the road and he made a song. We made a song about this. And we was like, I was driving down the road, and then in the middle of prayer, it just hit me. The idea is just like, okay, let's start a podcast. And then we'll just take our conversations to the mic and we'll share our experiences and share different principles that we've learned and that we are learning as fathers, as husbands, as men in leadership and ministry, and just share those experiences as we continue this journey.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:18:16]:
You pretty much summed it up. By all the thing, I guess what I would add was just me and Terry was really close. He became more than a friend of me. He became my brother. And so like I said, it was literally one day he was driving down the road in middle of prayer. And then he called me, he said, Hey, the Lord put it in my heart. Let's start a podcast. We didn't know it was going to be not your average girl at, but it was, he's like, let's just start a podcast.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:18:37]:
Let's just share our conversation. And I said, okay. And so one of the things that I told them, I'm like, I'm not very business savvy, so I'll do what I can. But his main thing was like I said, the great content, the subject matter. And we knew that we could be a blessing to other girl dads or inspired fathers or dads period. Even you're not a girl that just dad periods or just father figures. We just wanted to put something out there to let the people know that you're doing a great job today and time is always about the negativity. It's all about what people aren't doing.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:19:08]:
So we wanted to put some out there to let them know you're doing a great job. If you're showing up, that's half the battle right there. You're doing a great job. So that was the idea. And then I got an opportunity to use my creative juices. I sing, I rap, I, I write. And so I used to do jingles and that was one of the things that really connected us. He would come to subway and I'm like, subway, eat fresh, you know, welcome to subway.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:19:37]:
Eat fresh. Like there was always like this larger than life moment when you came in the subway. So I was like, this is an opportunity for me to employ some of my skills. So I had to say yes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:49]:
So as you've gone along this journey, you put out some different episodes, talked about a lot of topics, some lighthearted, some heavier in nature. You know, I know that, Demetrius, you talked about at the beginning that it took you guys a long time to have your first child, and you talk about that in one of your episodes as well. So I guess in the conversations that you did have in the shows that you've put out thus far, what is your hope? What are you hoping that people are taking away from the message that you're sharing?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:20:19]:
Well, my hope for me is with God, all things are possible. Our conversation is always centered around God. And actually one of my favorite episodes was that story about us having a hard time because we went through a lot and that's in life. Things are going to always be handed on the silver platter. You're going to have to work hard and you know, there's going to be ups. It's gonna be a lot of ups. It's gonna be a lot of downs. But if you keep your trust in God, that if he promised you something, it's going to come to pass.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:20:48]:
So that's the main thing I would say is just that keep your trust in God and just know that with God, all things are possible and things are gonna always get better. And that's one of the many things that I would pray that somebody picks up from hearing us.

Quentarious Jones [00:21:04]:
I would like for people to pick up or like for those listeners to pick up. Everything happens for a reason. We don't always understand what that reason can be, but as long as you have, in my opinion, faith, family, and the fundamentals of life always help you keep the right perspective even in the toughest times of your life. Because with Roski and his family, I believe when that was going on for them, and I I think I shared this with him, is that my wife and I, we experienced a miscarriage at one point before Kalani was born. And this was before he and his wife went down the path of experiencing their journey. And when we went through that, it was like an opportunity for me to share with him. Hey. If God has promised you something that is gonna come to pass.

Quentarious Jones [00:21:57]:
And at that time, I'm not thinking that, hey, this is gonna be something that Rosie's going through or someone else, but you learn that everything happens for a reason. Even some of the things that can bring us disappointment, some of the situations that can bring us some hurt, some pain. But in some of that hurt, that pain, you can still receive joy. He can replace your morning into dancing and, you know, your darkness into light. And so I just want listeners and those that come to the podcast or come to hear anything from us to know that God is consistently good and that if you maintain your faith, always trust in the fact that he is good and that he knows best, that all things will work together for your good.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:40]:
So talk to me about the future of the podcast. I know it's been a little bit of time since you last posted, but what's gonna be coming in the future?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:22:46]:
We have season 2 coming really soon. We're working on it. We're recording, doing episodes. We have music videos coming soon, promos. We're, reaching out to start, doing speaking gigs, the whole 9 yard. But I guess in immediate future, definitely season 2, and we have a excited video coming. It's going to just once again, highlight all the fathers out there. We want to give you your flowers while you're still here on this side of heaven.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:23:21]:
So, it's exciting. And it's not just his biological dads, father figures, coaches, teachers, mentors. If you just been just a mentor to anybody, we wanna say thank you, and we love you and keep doing what you were called to do.

Quentarious Jones [00:23:37]:
Gearing up for season 2 and gearing up to put out that video, which and that song, which highlights just the amazing work that dads around the world are doing. And I think Roski said it earlier, in a society that is can be very critical, so much negativity that goes on or that is said, especially towards men and fathers and husbands and what we're not doing. But let's highlight, the good that is going on because there are great dads out in the world. There are great mentors and fathers that are investing in the next generation to help build a better society. Uplift, and that that's our goal for the future is this can continue to promote faith, family, and fundamentals of life, and, hopefully, it continues to inspire the next generation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:24]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:31]:
Let's go. Ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:33]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Quentarious Jones [00:24:35]:
Commitment. Sacrifice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:36]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Quentarious Jones [00:24:41]:
I haven't felt that yet. But sometimes I felt like I've succeeded getting them to school on time with no crying.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:50]:
When I was able to watch all 3 of my girls and not have to call my wife once while she was out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:56]:
Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:24:59]:
Talk to my oldest one. But, she always tells me that she loves me. I recently went to go read to her class for it's, national readings month. And I went to go read their class. And as soon as I walked through the door, she had the biggest Kool Aid smile and it just won my heart. So I don't think she say I'm a pretty good dude.

Quentarious Jones [00:25:17]:
I would say I believe they would both call me the best dad in the world. And the reason they call me the best dad in the world is because they say I give them everything. They say when we ask mommy, she always say, no, ma'am. No ham, no turkey. But when we go to daddy, he's gonna give us everything we want. So, yeah. So I would be probably the best dad in the world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:36]:
So Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:25:38]:
It's a lot of people. My pastor, my dad. I know growing up with a father, I never envisioned nothing else. That's what I saw. I was gonna be married. I was gonna have kids. I was gonna be a part of their life. So it's a it's a lot of people, but definitely my dad and my pastor.

Quentarious Jones [00:25:53]:
For me, I would say my pastor. I would also say a lot of the men in the church community where I serve just seeing a lot of great examples of many different type of dads, from many different backgrounds and experiences. My story was a little bit different from Roskis because I didn't have a relationship with my dad early on in my life until I became a teenager, so until I was, like, 15 years old. And so we have an amazing relationship now. But that first few years of my life was always kinda searching for the perfect father figure or someone who could help lead me in those critical times of my life. And I had a great mentor, and I still talk to him. We're still great to this day. Those would be my inspirations.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:41]:
Now both of you have given a number of pieces of advice today, things that everyone should be thinking about. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you wanna give to every day?

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:26:50]:
Continue to show up. You're not going to always know what to do. You're not going to always have the answer, but when you show up, it shows that number 1, you care and you're willing to learn.

Quentarious Jones [00:27:01]:
My advice is to don't be so hard on yourself because everything is a learning experience. You're always gonna be learning something new about yourself and about your kids. If you're married, you're about your spouse. It's always an evolving door or phase of life where you're always in a a constant state of learning. And so as long as you wanna continue to have the mindset to be a student, I'm a say student of the game of life or student of the game of being a husband, being a father, just being a leader, you're always gonna learn something new. And as long as you have the right posture, you can receive those benefits. So just always have a a student part.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:38]:
Now if people wanna find out more about the 2 of you, about the podcast, where should they go?

Quentarious Jones [00:27:43]:
So we're on social media, so they can go to Instagram, TikTok, threads, x, you formerly known as Twitter. So you can find us even on Facebook. So you can find us at nyagd_tribe. So that's nyagd_tribe.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]:
And we'll put links in the notes today so everybody can find that. Guys, I just wanna say thank you. Demetrius, Quinterius, thanks so much for being here today. Wish you all the best, and good luck on this journey that both of you are on to raise those amazing daughters that you wanna raise.

Demetrius Roe Jones [00:28:19]:
Thank you for having us once again. We're it was an honor and a privilege.

Quentarious Jones [00:28:22]:
Yes. Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:23]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:21]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Dad you can be.
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Healing Fatherhood: David Peralta on Love, Emotional Openness, and Raising Strong Daughters
15 juil.· Dads With Daughters
Fatherhood is often described by many as a profound journey filled with love, challenges, and personal growth. In this week's episode we speak with David Peralta, father, entrepreneurial coach and founder of The Soul Centered Founder to discuss the transformative experience of raising strong, empowered daughters. This episode delves deep into the essence of fatherhood, exploring themes such as emotional healing, the importance of presence, and the power of unconditional love.

The Initial Reaction: Finding Purpose in Fatherhood

When David Peralta first learned he would become a father to a daughter, the news had a profound emotional impact on him. This newfound responsibility and bond created a sense of purpose that reshaped his life's trajectory. Peralta's immediate reaction reflects a common sentiment among fathers—a mixture of excitement, fear, and overwhelming love.

Fatherhood: A Journey Rooted in Love

Peralta describes fatherhood with one powerful word: "love." This simple yet profound definition encapsulates the essence of his approach to parenting. For him, the ultimate goal of fatherhood is to foster an environment where love is the foundation. His daughter views him as loving, humorous, and occasionally irritable—an honest testament to the multifaceted nature of parenting.

Personal Growth and Healing: Unpacking Emotional Baggage

We delve into the necessity of personal growth in fatherhood. Peralta reflects on how his unresolved trauma initially impacted his parenting style and family dynamics. It created a cycle of conflict and violence that, unbeknownst to him, mirrored his internal struggles. Through therapy, he began to confront and process buried emotions, particularly anger, which proved to be a monumental task.

This journey towards emotional healing has been transformative for Peralta, enabling him to become a more present, understanding, and compassionate father. He emphasizes that this emotional openness is essential for cultivating a loving relationship with his children.

Communication: The Path to Understanding and Connection

One of the most significant themes discussed in the podcast is the impact of open communication within the family. David Peralta highlights that actively listening and providing a supportive space without trying to "fix" problems can profoundly enhance the father-daughter relationship. He began to embody emotional openness, choosing to participate in his daughter’s emotional world rather than dictate solutions.

The Influence of Role Models: A Father's Inspiring Presence

Peralta draws inspiration from his own father's unconditional love and calm demeanor. This role model has motivated him to strive for continuous personal growth and better parenting. The admiration and lessons derived from his father underscore the value of positive role models in shaping one's approach to fatherhood.

Embracing Unconditional Love and Acceptance

According to Peralta, true success in fatherhood stems from embodying the states we want to be in, such as love, compassion, and balance. These qualities are essential for fostering personal growth and creating an environment where daughters can thrive. He advises fathers to clear any obstacles that hinder these states to achieve balance and success.

Recognizing and Addressing Internal Conflicts

Peralta provides insightful advice for fathers to recognize that many conflicts may originate within themselves. By addressing their own internal struggles, fathers can transform their approach to relationships, leading to healthier and more fulfilling connections with their daughters. This self-awareness and emotional literacy are critical components of effective parenting.

The Continuous Journey of Personal Growth

Dr. Christopher Lewis reminds listeners that personal growth is an ongoing journey. Both he and Peralta acknowledge that fatherhood presents continuous opportunities for learning and transformation. The key is to remain open to growth and seek support when necessary, which ultimately benefits both the father and the daughter.

The podcast episode concludes with a call to action for fathers to embrace emotional healing, open communication, and unconditional love in their parenting journey. David Peralta's story serves as a powerful reminder of the transformative power of love and presence in fatherhood.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk with you, and walk with you on this journey that you're on in raising those amazing daughters that you're raising and helping them to be the strong, independent women that we always talk about. And to get there, we definitely do not have to do this alone. And the show is here to help you to see that, to be able to understand that experience that and to know that there are so many other people that are walking on this path alongside you that you can reach out to. Or if you're a little shy, you don't have to reach out. You can listen and you can learn and be willing to learn along the way because none of us know everything about fatherhood. We walk into fatherhood a lot of times not knowing much at all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:18]:
At least that was my experience. And you have to learn along the way. And society does not always champion being vulnerable in that way and putting yourself out there to say, I don't know, but you're going to be a better father when you do. So it is so important to be able to do that. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests, different individuals with different experiences that can share the journey that they've been on to be able to help you in your own journey. And you can take you can pick and choose the things that you hear to be able to find those things that will work for you because not everything that's going to be shared is going to work for you. But there are many things that can work for you if you put them into place. Today, we got another great guest with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]:
David Peralta is with us today. And David is a father of a daughter. We're going to talk about that in his own journey as being a dad. He's also in charge of the soul centered founder. We're gonna talk about balance in life and and trying to find that holistic balance and what that looks like as a individual, what that looks like in your personal life or professional life, and how you can incorporate some of these different principles into the work that you're doing as a father as well. David, thanks so much for being here today.

David Peralta [00:02:40]:
Thanks so much for having me, Christopher. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:42]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. And one of the things that I love doing, 1st and foremost, is I love having the power to turn back time. So I wanna go all the way back. I wanna go back to first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?

David Peralta [00:02:55]:
Well, so a lot was going on. My, my wife and I, we had gotten married 4 months prior. We had met just 4 months before that. It was very clear from the moment that we met that we had found the person that we were willing to commit to for the rest of our life, but we were not expecting to get pregnant so soon. And so when she took that pregnancy test because she missed her cycle, we were not expecting the result, but I'll never forget the moment I saw that us sign. I felt this incredible energy enter me that I knew this is the energy of the father. This is the divine fatherhood energy. Suddenly, I felt connected to it in a way that I did not know was possible.

David Peralta [00:03:39]:
And I felt that this was gonna be the the start of a brand new chapter in my life, and it was this profound love that I felt for this being that was now just starting to grow inside of my wife. So it was really, an incredible blend of emotion, of profound love, of a sense of purpose and destiny, and that was just the start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:58]:
I love that. And I think each of us have that different feeling as we're moving forward. Some of us are scared out of our minds. Some of us are elated, and a lot of us are a mixture of the 2. So and then as you move forward and you get closer to that due date and then you have a heavier child, then there's a whole different set of feelings that happens that come into place. Now I talk to a lot of dads, a lot of dads that are that have gone through different phases, stages within their own fatherhood. As you think about raising your daughter, and I know your daughter's 12 now, as you think back to these years that you've been with her, what's been your biggest fear in raising a daughter in today's society?

David Peralta [00:04:40]:
I've never thought about it that way in terms of my biggest fear. Well, so I have to put that a little bit differently. Yeah? Because, it's not it's not a fear that I've had in terms of raising her. It was the darkness that I had to face inside of myself that I didn't know I was gonna have to face. Yeah? The darkness that she brought up as just bringing her light into this world brought up this side of my self that I did not know was there. And so it wasn't so much a fear so much as it was the incredible challenge to have to meet that, discover that part of myself, and then learn how to overcome that part so that it wouldn't cause basically damage and destruction in in our relationship and in our life. This these unhealed wounded parts to myself that I didn't know I had been carrying.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:22]:
Would you be willing to go a little deeper?

David Peralta [00:05:24]:
Oh, absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]:
Talk to me a little bit about what that darkness was for you and what you had to overcome as you were dealing with that.

David Peralta [00:05:32]:
Yeah. Absolutely. So to go a little bit back, back to that moment, actually, when I discovered that I was father. In the moment prior to that, my wife and I had been arguing. And because we were freshly married, we weren't really sure where we were gonna be going. We were in Austria at that time with her family. Were we gonna be living in the US? What were we gonna be doing? Our plan was actually to go back to India where we had met, and we were studying meditation. And so this discovery of this pregnancy completely through our life up in the air, we had no idea what we were gonna do.

David Peralta [00:06:01]:
To provide some additional context, right, for what was going on when I found out that I was gonna be a father. And so while I felt this incredible love, my wife started crying because she wasn't sure what this life together was going to be like, and all this uncertainty that she was feeling, and also some conflict that was coming up in our relationship. And so that continued during the pregnancy as we continued to get to know each other. Basically, what we discovered was that we both had a lot of wounding from our childhood that we were bringing into the relationship. We were not aware of this at this point. The way that this manifested in our relationship was fighting, blaming. Anytime one of us hurt the other, it was really that wound being triggered in each of us, and the other one was simply the catalyst for that wounding for the trigger, excuse me, for the triggering of that wound, but we didn't realize that at that time. It took us over 10 years before we got to this point of realizing this.

David Peralta [00:06:57]:
So the point is this. We're arguing a lot during the pregnancy. We're fighting a lot during the pregnancy, and there's also a lot of love, but then this continues during our daughter's early years. My my wife has since so first of all, jump forward. We have reached an incredible point in our relationship, just so that people know we've gotten through the mud and we're back to this state of incredible profound love for each other. My wife ended up becoming a, a counselor for women, and during her studies what she discovered is that what happens during the pregnancy and what happens during infancy has a I mean, she didn't discover this. This is known, but we learned this together. It has a profound impact on the life of a child, that the emotions and the experiences that a child is exposed to while in the womb and any conflict and any stress that a child is exposed to in those early years, that affects how the brain is wired.

David Peralta [00:07:49]:
That affects the kind of stress response that a child is gonna have for the rest of its life. Right? They're gonna come into a world that rather than feeling safe and full of unconditional love, potentially they're gonna enter a world where they feel like there's lots of conflict, there's lots of anger, there's lots of all kinds of emotions that are overwhelming for a baby. So by the time my daughter reaches 3 years old, she's grown up in this environment. There's also love, but there's definitely not an absence of negativity. That was definitely there. And so, she starts to show this behavior in very challenging ways. In other words, she starts to act out. She starts to act out and show I'm feeling all these emotions.

David Peralta [00:08:30]:
They're uncomfortable for me. I cannot stand them. I can't stand all these feelings that I've been having, and so there's a lot of fighting. My wife and I are still unconscious at this time. We're still not picking this up, and so we believe that she's misbehaving. And me, in particular, I tend to get rigid in the face of that, and so I punish her even further, which just compounds the behavior because not only is she trying to express that she's uncomfortable with what she's feeling, but now I'm punishing her for it. And so it creates this spiral of conflict and eventually violence where she starts to get physically violent with us, and we still don't get it. I still don't get it until it climaxes when she's about 7 years old.

David Peralta [00:09:15]:
And we've gotten so helpless and so hopeless, and we don't know what to do, and we're dealing with so much stress as a result of these challenges that we're facing with her and with each other. And then that's when we realize that we need help. That's when we realize that the resources that we've got by ourselves are not enough. We didn't have proper examples in our relationships with our parents. We didn't have anybody telling us what to do. We didn't have anybody showing us, right, the way, and certainly nobody who said it was potentially going to be like this. And so as a result of this, my daughter was basically showing, you are carrying all this conflict inside of you. You have to deal with this conflict, and you need to stop projecting it onto me.

David Peralta [00:10:01]:
And so that was the start of a multi year process where we began to understand this and discover this and learn how to heal that conflict that we were carrying inside of ourselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:14]:
Sounds like quite a journey and definitely something that is ongoing because you don't just heal right away. You don't just unveil what that trauma per se is. Because as you said, it was unconscious to you, that it was ingrained in your personality, ingrained in who you were, and you had to unpack all of that for yourself to be able to be that better parent that you wanted to be for your child. Now, and this might be that might have been the hardest part. But I guess one of the questions that I have is as you look back at the last 12 years for you, what's been the hardest part specifically of being a father to a daughter?

David Peralta [00:10:57]:
Yeah. So the hardest part was when I realized the hardest part was getting back in touch with my sensitivity. And what I mean by that is I now recognize that I was born super sensitive, very sensitive heart, very sensitive soul, and so easily overwhelmed by negative emotions, easily overwhelmed by pain. My parents both, you know, like many parents carrying their own unresolved wounds and trauma, you know, they were carrying this pain themselves, and so it was just too much for me as a child. And so the way that I survived that was by really shutting down parts of my heart, really shutting down my ability to feel emotion. And I didn't know that because I always saw myself as a very loving, caring person. But when I saw this anger start to come up, this was also part of the most difficult thing was I considered myself a very calm person my entire life, and it was only when my daughter really reached the peak of her behavior that I saw a level of anger and explosiveness come up in me that I did not know was in me, and it was scary for everybody. It was scary for her, it was scary for my wife, and it was scary for me.

David Peralta [00:12:07]:
And so that was one of the most challenging things, but even more challenging than that was once it started to become clear that this was the root of the issue, that this pain that I was carrying was the root of the conflict with my wife and with my daughter. When I first started therapy sessions, specifically somatic experiencing therapy, and I had to start feeling the emotions that I had kept buried for so long, that was hands down the most difficult thing that I had to do because I had, at that point, like, 37, 38 plus years of having just basically shut down to these feelings. And so I remember in the beginning, it was I almost couldn't do it. It was like I could just tap into it for a millisecond, and then I felt overwhelmed, and I felt like it was too much. But I knew I had to do it because I knew that this was the only way that I was gonna develop that loving relationship that I had always envisioned. I'd always imagined myself as being a loving father. And I knew that the only way to reach that vision that I'd had for myself for so long was to go through this pain. And that was the most difficult thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:25]:
So you went through this process for yourself, this process of unveiling this pain for yourself so that you could be that better father, this work that you put in, it's not always easy, it's going to definitely take time. How has it made you a better father in the end?

David Peralta [00:13:41]:
It hasn't just made me a better father. It has restored me to being a human being because I had not been a human being. I had been a functioning human. I had been a surviving human. I had been, I'm getting by human, but I had not been a human being. And what I mean by that is what I feel now is a human being is able to feel everything. A human being's heart is open to every experience, positive and negative, And and and that heart is able to hold all of those experiences and and gives us a profound sense of peace, a profound sense of contentment, a profound sense of of stillness. And so once I started to experience also, like, this joy of living, of just being alive, not not even accomplishment.

David Peralta [00:14:34]:
I didn't have to do anything to feel joy. I simply felt joyful once a certain level had been unblocked and uncovered. And so, of course, if I am radiating that, if I am embodying that, then that is what I am modeling for my children. And now, because I'm not carrying all of this pain that felt overwhelming, there is now space. There was never space for anybody else's feelings because I was already overwhelmed with what I was carrying. Anybody else's intense emotions? No. No space for you. You've got to stop it.

David Peralta [00:15:13]:
You've got to calm down, but now there was space. So now if my daughter's having an outburst, there is much more space for me to be present for her, for me to recognize that she's in pain, for me to recognize that she needs comforting, that she needs an unconditionally loving figure as she's in the presence of expressing this pain. And this is an ongoing process. Right? I'm not completely through this, but these are the ways in which it has made me a much more present, a much more loving, a much more understanding, a much more compassionate father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:47]:
So talk to me a little bit about how you've taken all of this, all this work that you've done on yourself, and how you're helping your daughter to be able to take what you've learned to incorporate it into her own life.

David Peralta [00:16:04]:
Yeah. So a lot of it, like I said, is simply embodying. Simply being this is the first thing. And then the second thing is to have completely I shouldn't say completely because I'm still in the process of doing this, but to do a way of the mister fix it model. In other words, the part of me that always felt like if there's a problem, I have to fix it. If my daughter is having a problem, I have to fix it. If my wife is having an issue, I have to fix it. Right? I have to help them fix it, and now I listen, and I give space.

David Peralta [00:16:30]:
And my daughter says that she can finally talk to me, And so she shares with me a whole lot more than she did before. And so this helps her to tap into her feelings and her emotions when she's having a hard time. And this is still a struggle for her because she's also still carrying an overwhelming amount of this pain that she carried from childhood. So we're still in the process of helping her process and integrate all of that. But the point is, if from where I am, I can love her unconditionally for who she is, regardless of how she behaves, then she feels seen, she feels accepted for who she is, she feels loved for who she is not for what she does and not for how she behaves. And I have seen this bring back this light into her eyes that started to go dead during these most challenging years. And so I have seen this express I've seen this light express itself through her and help her discover a passion for theater and a passion for dance, and I see this light come out in these things, and I haven't had to do anything for that light to express itself other than to be in that light in myself, recognize that light in her, and love that light in her, and then she just naturally blossoms.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:55]:
Now I know that you are really talking I mean, you're talking a bit about balance, that balance of what we do in our lives and how we find that balance, which is not always easy to find. And some would say that it's not that we can't find a true balance, that there is not a way to find that true balance. I don't know if that's true, but I think that we can work toward finding a balance. And I know that you do that. You work to try to find that equilibrium in our work life, our personal life, our full self, as you were talking about. Talk to me about how what you've learned yourself and what you've what you're doing to incorporate that into the people that you work with. And are there certain things that we can do that you and I can do on a daily basis to start this process for ourselves?

David Peralta [00:18:47]:
So this to me is the essence of what we call success. In other words, I believe we have a really distorted model of success that's built on accomplishment as opposed to embodiment. I believe, true success is when we embody the states that we want to be, and that this is more important, and that this is what enables us to do what it is that we want to do. So in other words, there's a lot of people, a lot of men, a lot of fathers who have visions of businesses that they wanna create. Right? There's things that they wanna do, and there's things that they wanna accomplish, and they end up finding that there's a lot of obstacles in their way, and they struggle, and they and they spend their energy in a 1000000 different directions, and they put so much of their energy into their work to try to get it either off the ground or keep it operating, or once it's operating to get it to the next level, and so there's this profound lack of balance. So much of their energy goes to their work, and so little energy goes to the rest of their life. And what I have been discovering in my own life and through the mentors, and teachers that I've worked with is that this is a backwards approach, and that the foundation for success in what we do comes from love, and that love comes from our relationships, and that love comes from ourselves. So in other words, we have to have love for ourselves, love for who we are, and acceptance of who we are, and all these things, and then we can have love in our relationships, and that love is this empowering energy which fills us with life.

David Peralta [00:20:18]:
We have love in our relationships with our spouses, and we have love with our children. That love is a creative energy. It's a creative force. So then when we have a vision for what we wanna create in this world to our business, that vision is now empowered by love. And so by being empowered by love, the act of creating that vision is so much more smooth. It's so much more in harmony, and it is so much more synchronous with the rest of life that it it doesn't just feel like I mean, I believe we are interconnected with life and with everything. The universe essentially responds to us. The universe responds to our intention, and it responds to what it is that we're trying to create.

David Peralta [00:21:03]:
And it helps to create that because it's responding to that creative force that is flowing through us that love. And, so, the foundation of success is developing that love and clearing out whatever's blocking that love in our life. And, so, I would say the first step that people can take is to want to do that. In other words, to recognize that if things are out of balance, perhaps things are out of things are not necessarily out of balance in life around us, they're out of balance inside of us. And so we have to have that desire to discover how to create that balance, the desire to discover what is blocking that balance inside of us, what is blocking that love inside of us. And then once we have that desire, once we have that intention, then it's my belief and experience that life will respond, and life will start to bring to us the people that we need, the lessons that we need, the teachings that we need to discover how to unblock that, and then how to, you know, step by step continue moving forward into embodying that love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:09]:
And embodying that love, like you were saying, some of some there's going to be people that there's going to be dad a dad that is listening right now that is saying, I have no clue what you're talking about. I have no clue. How do I embody that for myself? How do I embody that for my my child? What would you say to them?

David Peralta [00:22:28]:
Yeah. So so what I would say is, like, where is the conflict in your life? Is the conflict with your spouse? Is the conflict with your child? Is there a specific behavior that is the core trigger of that conflict? How do you feel when that behavior, when that conflict is taking place? That's the core. So in other words, if when I'm with my daughter and she would start to really act up in a certain way, I would start to feel angry. So that was the root. So the first thing I have to do is I have to start becoming aware of that anger. I have to start feeling that anger in a healthy setting. Right? Not in a setting where I'm reacting to my daughter, but I have to later on, either with a therapist or a friend or somebody, you know, who can hold space, I have to think back on that moment when my daughter or my wife acted a certain way, and I felt angry. And then, I start to feel that anger.

David Peralta [00:23:17]:
And what does that feel like? It feels hot. It feels uncomfortable. I feel full of rage. And then, once I start to tap into it enough, I start to integrate it. It doesn't it stops being suppressed. It stops being explosive. And then once I can feel that, then I can start to ask myself, what do I feel angry about? And then I can start to feel what is underneath the anger and, oh, I feel freshly sad, or I feel really hurt that when I was a child, I was not given space for who I was. I was treated this way, or I was treated that way.

David Peralta [00:23:54]:
So the core is hook into what is the conflict what is the conflict in your life at the moment, and then what emotions and what inner feelings does that conflict bring up? That's where we start, and that is the road. The emotions that we feel are the path to unconditional love. Feeling those emotions leads us straight back into the heart and into love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:17]:
I appreciate you sharing that because I think it is a continuum. As I said before, it is not something that is going to be a static thing, you're going to have to keep working on it. It is not something that you're going to fix in one fell swoop. So all of the things that David has talked about, as you heard, he started working on this a long time ago, and he's still working on it today. So know that if you want to make these changes for yourself, that it is not going to be a quick fix. And you're going to have to understand that and be willing to to work on it and to be able and be willing to work on it for years to come.

David Peralta [00:25:02]:
I love the saying of the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:10]:
I love that. Yeah. I think that it's very true. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Absolutely. In one word, what is fatherhood?

David Peralta [00:25:22]:
Love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:23]:
When was a time that you felt like you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

David Peralta [00:25:29]:
When my daughter opened her heart and started sharing the pain that she had felt when she was younger, and that she was starting to feel and restore this trust in me that had been lost. Now if I was to talk to your daughter, how would she describe you as a dad?

David Peralta [00:25:43]:
Hopefully funny and loving and maybe irritable. I think, I think I still have that that tendency when she when she rubs me a certain way. That's my reaction, And so I have to watch. But I believe then she would say that, yes, she has a very loving, humorous father who still needs to keep working on himself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:03]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

David Peralta [00:26:05]:
Oh, my father. Absolutely. He was that unconditional love, and I never saw him get angry. No. It was not true. Once. Once. I one time saw him get angry, and he held that space for us as children even in spite of his past.

David Peralta [00:26:18]:
So, yeah, definitely my father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:20]:
Now we've talked about a lot of different things. Things that you had to do to be a better father. Things that you're working with other people on to help them be better parents. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

David Peralta [00:26:34]:
One piece of advice that I'd like to give to every dad is I don't know about every dad, but to people who are still in a state of conflict with others, with their wife and with their kids, to consider the possibility that the conflict is not with them, but that the conflict is inside of us, and that we are bringing conflict to the relationship rather than constantly seeing the relationships as a source of conflict.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:01]:
Now, David, if people wanna find out more about you and the soul centered founder or just to get to know you better, where should they go?

David Peralta [00:27:10]:
They can go to soul centered founder.com. That's the site for this organization. And if anybody's interested in just having a conversation or kinda just sharing about their experience, you can actually just book a free discovery call with me. And I'm I'm happy to talk to anybody at all about what their experience has been.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:27]:
Well, David, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today, and I wish you all the best.

David Peralta [00:27:34]:
Thank you so much, Christopher. Really appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:36]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dotorg. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:25]:
We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen get out and be the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

You're the best dad you can be.
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Father and Daughter Journeys: Insights from Judges Michael & Megan Cavanagh
8 juil.· Dads With Daughters
Fatherhood is a profound journey marked by growth, challenges, and unwavering love. In a recent episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, Michigan Supreme Court Judges Michael Cavanagh andhis daughter, Megan Cavanagh, a dynamic father-daughter duo, shared their insights on navigating fatherhood, fostering strong father-daughter relationships, and excelling in male-dominated fields. Let's delve into their engaging discussion and discover the wisdom they imparted.

Michael Cavanagh: A Reflection on Responsibility

Michael Cavanagh's journey into fatherhood was met with excitement and determination. However, he also faced the daunting task of raising daughters in a society dominated by male narratives. Through his experiences, he emphasizes the pivotal role of fathers in empowering their daughters and challenging societal norms. Michael's dedication to instilling values of resilience, respect, and determination in his children serves as a guiding light for fathers navigating similar paths.

Megan Cavanagh: A Journey of Empowerment

Megan Cavanagh's narrative reflects a tale of empowerment and resilience fostered by her father's unwavering support. Encouraged to pursue male-dominated fields such as engineering and law, Megan embodies the spirit of breaking barriers and embracing challenges. Her evolution from engineering to law and eventually appellate law showcases the importance of parental guidance in empowering daughters to follow their aspirations. Megan's story exemplifies the transformative power of parental support in shaping a daughter's journey to success.

Navigating Male-Dominated Fields:

Michael Cavanagh: Guiding Through Example

Michael Cavanagh's concern over the lack of female representation in fields like law and patent law highlights the need for inclusivity and support in traditionally male-dominated areas. His emphasis on guiding daughters to pursue knowledge, seek information, and make informed decisions underscores the importance of cultivating a generation of empowered women. Michael's advocacy for encouraging daughters to study grammar and Latin intertwines with his core belief in the significance of expressing love and fostering a nurturing environment.

Megan Cavanagh: Defying Expectations

Megan Cavanagh's journey from initially pursuing a career in engineering to transitioning into law and politics showcases her defiance of societal expectations. With her father's unwavering support and guidance, Megan navigated through uncharted waters to establish a career path aligned with her passions. Her experience highlights the transformative impact of parental encouragement in breaking stereotypes and creating opportunities for daughters in traditionally male-dominated fields.

Balancing Work and Family Life:

The Evolution of Work-Life Balance

Michael Cavanagh's reflection on the evolution of work-life balance, particularly in his role as a judge, highlights the transformative impact of technology on modern parenthood. His ability to balance work commitments with quality family time, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic, underscores the importance of adaptability and resilience in nurturing familial bonds. Michael's insights shed light on the shifting landscape of parenthood and the significance of finding harmony between professional and personal spheres.

Megan Cavanagh: A Testament to Resilience

Megan Cavanagh's experience of pursuing a career in law and running for office underscores the complexities of balancing ambition with familial responsibilities. With her father's initial resistance and eventual support, Megan navigated through challenges to establish her presence in the legal and political spheres. Her journey epitomizes the spirit of resilience, determination, and familial support in overcoming obstacles and achieving personal and professional milestones.

In an engaging dialogue filled with insights and wisdom, Michael and Megan Cavanagh shed light on the transformative power of fatherhood, the significance of parental guidance, and the essence of empowering daughters in male-dominated fields. Their stories serve as testaments to the enduring bond between fathers and daughters, the importance of breaking barriers, and the resilience required to navigate through life's challenges. As we embark on our own journeys of fatherhood and empowerment, let us draw inspiration from the experiences shared by Michael and Megan Cavanagh and strive to create a nurturing and inclusive world for the daughters of tomorrow.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with Daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to be back with you again this week and to talk with you about this journey that you're on in raising your daughters to be those strong, independent women that you want them to be in their lives. And every week, I love being able to sit down with you. You know I've got 2 daughters myself, so I learn from you. I learn from our guests, and I love being able to have them on to talk about the journey that they've been on to be able to help you and give you some things to pull from to help you in this journey as well. Every week I bring you different guests, different people from different walks of life, with different experiences, had to have gone through this before you or maybe going through it at the same time. And this week, we've got 2 great guests, a father and a daughter. We don't always get to do that, and I love it when we can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:13]:
But today, we've got Michael Kavanaugh or Judge Michael Kavanaugh, I should say, that that, it wait. Let me stop it. We have Judge Michael Kavanaugh, who is a retired judge of the Michigan Supreme Court, and his daughter, Judge Megan Kavanaugh, also of the Michigan Supreme Court. And first, what was really great about this was not only talking about this journey that they've been on, but also the fact that one of the interesting things was that Megan was the first child to have joined her parent as a member of the court since 18/57. So that's a pretty amazing feat in itself. So I love that we're able to have Michael and Meaghan both here today to talk about this journey that they're both on. Thank you both for being here today.

Michael Cavanagh [00:01:56]:
Good to be here.

Megan Cavanagh [00:01:57]:
Thank you for having us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. And, Michael, I wanna start with you. I wanna go back in time. I wanna go all the way back, all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Michael Cavanagh [00:02:10]:
That was with Meghan's older sister. And reflecting on that, it was probably one of the brightest, most exciting moments of my life. It was our first child, and she was our first child. And she was born at 5 in the morning, and I remember leaving the hospital saying to myself, I'm gonna be the best dad in the world. I'm gonna take care of this child, and I'm gonna do everything I can to make life easier for I mean, I was really pumped. Then I got, of course, involved in my career. And truth be known, my wife took on the real heavy lifting in making the world great for our oldest child. We then had a son, and after, he arrived 2 or 4 years after that, our daughter Megan arrived.

Michael Cavanagh [00:03:19]:
And the feelings were very similar when all 3 arrived. But that first one was something special. It was alright, man. Now you're a dad, and you're gonna have to quit screwing around and get serious and make sure that you have the stamina and mental fortitude to succeed and achieve what you wanna do so you can make life easier for your daughter. I'm sure many fathers on their arrival of their first daughter shared similar feeling, but it was very euphoric.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:59]:
So, Michael, one of the things that I hear from a lot of dads is that in having daughters, that there is some fear that goes along with them. You've had daughters and sons, so you can kind of relate to both experiences. What was your biggest fear in raising daughters in society today?

Michael Cavanagh [00:04:14]:
I guess a fear was that it was so male oriented, society was. And, you know, and this was only, what, it would have been in the, late 1960, almost 70. But dads were still the stereotypical bring home the bacon and do things like that and let mother do the child rearing. And when you're out there in the world as I was in particular in politics, I think you get a special appreciation of the current trends and moods, and I guess I just wanted and hope that she would be able, with our help, to find her way in a male dominated society.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:06]:
And, Meaghan, when you hear that yeah. I mean, you've gone through your career. You've moved to into politics yourself. And as you heard your father just say, you know, he tried to do what he could to be able to help you and your sister to be able to maneuver through that male dominated society. And society's changed over the years. What do you feel that your dad did to prepare you for the road that you chose to be on in the world that you stepped into as you moved in and through your career?

Megan Cavanagh [00:05:35]:
Yeah. I think when he was describing that as a concern or a fear that he had, you know, the first thing that popped into my mind was when I was deciding to go to college and where and do blood and what I'm gonna do sort of thing and getting counsel and advice from my parents and figuring these sort of things out, He was actually probably one of the strongest urgers of me going into engineering, into what is at the time less so now, but at the time, a very male dominated profession. And so I think, like, recognizing that that was sort of a concern is that he didn't pass that, to me as a reason to be cautious about it or not consider it or hold back from that or what have you. Instead, it was do this. And in fact, the fact that there aren't that many or there weren't that many women in engineering is something that you should sort of capitalize on and embrace. And it's really interesting because I I have a 17 year almost 18 year old daughter who is going in the same process and is looking at engineering. And so as we're going through looking at all these different things, I just saw the field that she's looking at or the department that she's looking at and wanting to go to at the University of Michigan in engineering is 57% female student body, which is which is really amazing. But, yes, I think what he did was, obviously, he was aware of it and it was something he thought of and a concern, but he didn't pass on that concern to me.

Megan Cavanagh [00:07:08]:
And he didn't suggest to me that that was a reason to be cautious about doing it. As far as going into the legal profession and then into politics or running for election. Again, that was much later. I was I ran for office in 2018, a much different, you know, time than the late eighties when I went to college. But I think that the landscape had changed a lot. It wasn't, you know, as far as women in the profession of being lawyers and being judges. We currently, on the Supreme Court, have a female majority on the court. There's 4 out of the 7 of us are women, and we're not the first.

Megan Cavanagh [00:07:47]:
I think we're the 4th female majority on on court. So so I think that was that's sort of the the takeaway for me was that it was the recognition that he had that it was a male it was male dominated or concern wasn't a reason to sort of make him hesitate or suggest that I should. So I think looking back, I don't know what that dynamic would have been like. But he was like, look at this. It's gonna be you know, why don't you go into something different that's an easier path or a more traditional path or something like that? I will say I did follow his advice to go into engineering. I didn't. He actually encouraged me not to go into law and not to go into appellate law, and that's not a female thing. It was more we just have a very we have a ton of lawyers in our family.

Megan Cavanagh [00:08:41]:
And I think it was the the uniqueness and and that not, as many people, let alone women, could do engineering, and that would be a good thing to do. And I didn't follow that advice in part because I think the other qualities that I inherited from him and learned from him was by that time I knew what I what was right for me and could make those sort of decisions. I knew who I was, what I enjoyed, what I was good at, what motivated and fulfilled me and that was sort of more of the motivator as opposed to, you know, him saying we have too many lawyers. We're sort of, we joke we're we're a useless family because we can't build or fix anything. Right? All we do is either cause or try and solve problems.

Michael Cavanagh [00:09:24]:
I thought you were going to mention the fact that I made you diagram sentences as I did your 2 older siblings. But your teachers in high school at the conferences I attended said you had a terrific ability in math and with figures. I had a math degree in high school, but how I got through plain and solid geometry and trigonometry is beyond me. I thought I hated it. But I thought, alright. Your counselors in high school certainly said, you ought to be headed for engineering, and I would delight it when you did that. But it's it's kind of ironic that once you entered law and passed that, you landed back in a, heavily male oriented surroundings in the area of patent law. And there are very few female patent lawyers, and when they find one nowadays that has a background in science or engineering, They grabbed them up pretty quickly and slapped those golden handcuffs on them that you referred to, very impressive starting salaries and benefits.

Michael Cavanagh [00:10:44]:
So it was an interesting background.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:47]:
You know, one of the things that you said, Meghan, was that by the time that you decided to go to law school and then run for office, you knew who you were, you knew what you wanted, and you had a direction. And it sounds like through your life that you had support to get you to that point. What did your father do to help you to pave that way for you, to help you to see that direction that you wanted for your life?

Megan Cavanagh [00:11:14]:
I think that trajectory I always when I'm talking usually to to students, be they, you know, 4th graders or law students or anything in between. I sort of use my trajectory as an example of, like, you don't know where you're gonna end up from where you are now. Right? And and there's a huge push, and I'd say this as a mother of teenagers. Right? Like, to like, you're supposed to know at 16 what you're gonna do at 55. Right? And that's just not feasible. And I use that example. I mean, because I didn't know what I wanted to do at 17. I didn't really like that sort of I didn't know.

Megan Cavanagh [00:11:50]:
I listened to people who told me this is what you are good at and you should do this sort of thing, and I ended up in engineering. And I wasn't, to be honest, a huge fan of it. I worked for a couple of years. I did environmental engineering. Afterwards, I liked working in the field more than I did studying engineering, and that actually sort of made me a bit hesitant about going to law school. But I got to law school and it was really there was, like, this huge exhale. It was like, oh, this is me. They teach the way I learn.

Megan Cavanagh [00:12:19]:
They think the way, that sort of thing. It really was a fit. And then when I got out, as my dad mentioned, I was like, well, I should use them both. So I'll go into patent law and I should do that and found that it it really wasn't for me. I it was so it was for me, it was sort of like learning, trying a lot of things and then finding out whether or not it wasn't tuning into that. I really like to write and research and the area of Patmos that I was in, that wasn't it. And so I ended up back in appellate law. And again, I had that same sort of, this is where I'm supposed to be.

Megan Cavanagh [00:12:51]:
I think what helped me, you know, what my dad did that helped me was being supportive of that. Not always saying yes and agreeing with me on it, but helping me being open to it and helping me sort of think through it so that I could figure out what it is that is mine, you know, my thoughts and my my wants or what have you and what and to separate that out from what others say I should or shouldn't do. You know, and I think that it's part of his personality. I think it's also part of profession. He was a judge for a very long time. He was a judge on the Supreme Court for 31 years and six years before that on the Court of Appeals and, I don't know, a couple of years on the district court beforehand. But I would always people would always say, oh, your dad must hold court at the dinner table or something like that. Really, it wasn't the case.

Megan Cavanagh [00:13:39]:
He was the one who would, like, sort of toss out a topic or an idea or a thought or what have you and then sit back and listen to how other people think about it and hear it, which makes sense. That's what we do on the Supreme Court. Right? We have like, cases don't get up to us unless they're tough cases and there are good arguments on both sides, and our job primarily is to hear out all of the arguments and the reasons and the thoughts and that sort of thing. But I think in doing that, I mean, he did that as a profession, and I think he did that as a dad of listening probably first rather than speaking, and it was more important for him to hear what other people had to say than for me to hear what he thought about what I was doing. So I think that's a big thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:22]:
And Michael, I know earlier you said that you gave your wife a lot of kudos for helping to raise your kids and because you were in a very demanding and a very active career that pulled you in, took a lot of time. Talk to me about what you had to do to be able to maintain and build those relationships that you still wanted with your daughters, even though you had such a a public role and a role that took you away from your family as well.

Michael Cavanagh [00:14:56]:
Well, I think I was particularly fortunate in that when I left the trial court, which required me to be on the bench every day, 5 days a week. The appellate court, the 8 years I spent on the Michigan Court of Appeals, and then as Megan mentioned, 32 on the Supreme Court. An awful lot of that can be done, well, 90% of it maybe. That might be an exaggeration, but it deals with reading. Endless briefs, records, former opinions, research, and, you know, it's amazing. Even during that period, I was able to bring a lot of work home and fit some of the parenting functions with the the work of the court. And I think that was a unique benefit to me to be able to do. I think so many working fathers are in their particular job or profession 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, and it's my hands on.

Michael Cavanagh [00:16:10]:
I think today, it's even greater with, after COVID with everything being the Zoom conference, for example. Megan's in Troy. I'm in Lansing. A lot is achievable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:25]:
A lot is definitely achievable now where you couldn't have that in so many ways before COVID. So you're definitely right in that regard. Now, Meaghan, I I would I know that you said that your dad, when you said that you wanted to go to law school, has tried to convince you not to do that, and you paved your path and ended up going in that direction. And after some years, you did decide to run for office. Talk to me about that experience for you and the experience of going to your dad to talk to him about that decision and what that was like for you?

Megan Cavanagh [00:17:01]:
It's odd because it's a lot of those decisions whether to go to law school, whether to do appellate law, you know, leave patent law, do appellate law, whether to run for statewide election for the supreme court were things that he had literally done. Right? But in very different environments. Right? Like, thinking of the difference between, like, when running. I mean, he was first elected, I think, in 82. Yeah. And I was running in 2,000 and 18 and just just a tremendous difference in how elections were run, the amount of money that's required, how you reach voters, how much more sort of aware people are now about the supreme court and what it does and are engaged in that sort of thing. And it was great to have I'm incredibly fortunate. I'd say that today.

Megan Cavanagh [00:17:55]:
I mean, I literally look at cases all day that he has done the same job that I did that I'm doing. Right? So and a lot of what we do obviously as a court and as the institution is it's not just what I think. It's not even just what the 7 of the current justices think. It's an institution. It's it's something, you know, sorry decisive precedent that's existed for a long time, and and I have this incredible resource, this institutional memory of somebody who has, in any kind of environment, who has done the thing that I am confronting now even if it's in a very different environment, you know, like, even something like interpersonal relationships with your colleagues or something. He I mean, I think it's so unique, and I'm so fortunate to have that experience of and that resource of being able to do that because I don't think that many people can do it. So, like, for me, it was this sort of like, oh my gosh. This is great, and I have this opportunity, and isn't this wonderful? And I'm so fortunate, but at the same time, like, having to navigate, like, well, that isn't necessarily like, when you did it, it's it's a different like, knowing what's similar and what's different now.

Megan Cavanagh [00:19:12]:
Right? And sort of like what I had mentioned before of figuring out, like, what works for me or who I am and and knowing that sort of thing, I think it has helped. I need to know that difference. It's like, yes. You ran a statewide election, and you have opinions on how I should do it. Well, I might have different opinions based on this is a different time or this is my experience or people are telling me something different or that. And, again, like, it's just a knowing sort of where and what's the advice and what's eventually, it has to be my decision of of what I'm doing. And I think that that all stems from, like I said, I don't know what it would look like if his response to any of that were, well, this is how I did it. This is the only way to do it.

Megan Cavanagh [00:19:55]:
Or if you're not gonna listen to my advice, then I'm gonna stop giving you my advice. Yeah. I mean, there's a 1,000 different reactions that somebody you know, that somebody in his position position could give me in that reaction instead of saying, yeah. This is how I did it. And then they said,

Megan Cavanagh [00:20:06]:
and I think that was the right way.

Megan Cavanagh [00:20:07]:
And I also have opinions about how I think you should do it, but I also trust that you can figure that out on your own. So so I think that's that I'm very fortunate that that was that's the response that he gives over and over whether again, whether it's getting into law in the 1st place or whether it's running for statewide election or whether it's how do you handle this difficult dynamic that you've got going on in your own chambers.

Michael Cavanagh [00:20:33]:
I was just gonna say the nature of the job, I think, lends itself to forcing you to adapt to a change. You know, Michigan is unique in that all judgeships are nonpartisan. They appear on the nonpartisan ballot. But for supreme court, to get on the ballot, you have to be nominated by a political party. So you go through that process of getting nominated and then miraculously walk out the door and become nonpartisan. And it's once you are elected, then you are certainly not supposed to be partisan, and so you strive to keep your head low and stay out of partisan politics or those disputes. And for the supreme court in 8 year term, you emerge 8 years later after your first term, and I had 4 8 year terms on the court. But you emerge at the end of the term, finding that probably 70% of the players are different.

Michael Cavanagh [00:21:48]:
They've died. They've retired. The people you need to contact, you know, for support for reelection, and you have to go through that process again. So I think adapting to what Meghan had to do, being different in many respects from what I had, I benefited from my past experience.

Megan Cavanagh [00:22:11]:
I always say that, like, when you're running for a judge that if you're good at the running part, you're probably not a very good judge. Right? Like like, the very thing that you need to be good at to get the job is the opposite of what you need to be to be good at doing the job, which is staying out of that. You can't say this is what I think about this or this is, you know, I have these very strong opinions and this is how I would decide this. I mean, you're just you can't do that as a judge. Right? Like but it's a unique system that we have in Michigan. But it's so there's a lot of downfalls or negatives to that, but I think one of the positives, it ensures that you have some accountability to the people that you're serving, you know, and if you're just appointed or even running for retention elections or something like that way different states do it, you don't you don't have the opportunity or the need to get out and and actually see the people that are voting for you and that your decisions are affecting their lives across the state, pluses and minuses.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]:
Now, Michael, you just talked about the fact that as you are on the court, you gotta keep your head low. You gotta understand the political dynamics around you, but try to keep out of the fray. And I'm sure that along the years on the court and in your own home, you modeled by example and allowed for your kids to learn from example. What were some of the things that you did to try to teach your kids those lessons that you were learning on the court that would help them in their lives?

Michael Cavanagh [00:23:36]:
Well, that's hard to categorize. I guess I tried to keep them from being judgmental, ironically, too fast to not take a glib from social media and think that that's all there is to a question or a problem. And to try and if it's interesting enough to them to find out all they can about it before they come down one way or another with a decision. And I think that's crucial in my way of thinking to being a good judge, to trying to be as informed as possible, weighing both sides. And as Megham said, the Supreme Court, if they're doing their job correctly, is taking very gray cases. There are great arguments on both sides in most cases. Otherwise, they wouldn't be up there at the Supreme Court. So it's difficult, and it's all the more important that they be as widely informed as possible.

Megan Cavanagh [00:24:48]:
Yeah. In terms I was gonna answer maybe this is where the diagramming sentences comes into. It was very big on study. He would make us diagram sentences even though we weren't required to do that in school. But I think, you know, if anything, I'm putting in the work sort of for school and doing that and a big part of, I mean, that's what makes you a good writer is knowing how to use words and things like that or taking remember you took me to the state spelling bee. I still have the dictionary behind me from when I was in 8th grade. But so the hard work sort of thing, but it's that that was what he said because that was one of the first things that came to my mind. And I remember a specific case.

Megan Cavanagh [00:25:28]:
I don't want sort of go into it, but it had gotten a lot of media attention. I was in college at the time, but it was up in front of his court. It was in front of a couple of different courts, actually. But and there's a lot of media attention about it, and it was a very emotional issue. And there was definitely sort of a media narrative sort of on one side of the issue. And I remember being like any 19 or 20 year old where I knew all that I needed to know about it, and I, you know, shared that opinion with him. And his response was like, well, let's look at the other side of that. Did you know this? Did you know that? What would you think if this were part of it or what have you? And I always think of that, of we live in the gray in the Supreme Court.

Megan Cavanagh [00:26:13]:
Right? And that can be a very sort of frustrating thing for us as well as sort of the perception of what we do. It's like, well, some things should just be black and white. But I have found that mostly a lot of the stuff in life or the important stuff in life is in the gray. And there are two sides to most things. But I always recall that that incident of sort of going to him or, you know, whether it was I don't even know when it was, but it's saying, well, here's what this whole thing is about, you know, and here's my idea. And he's like, oh, really? Well, what did you do? What what about this sort of thing? And so that has always stuck with me. I'm like, oh, remember that.

Michael Cavanagh [00:26:51]:
I I have very distinct memories of those two experiences that Meg mentioned. I still, would like to throttle the reader at that spelling bee because as soon as he pronounced the word, and she was almost at the final, as soon as he pronounced the word, I knew she was gonna get it wrong because he mispronounced it. And sure enough, she got it wrong, but she came away with that addiction hurried behind her desk, and, it was interesting. I did a great did my best anyway, trying to control her on the way home from from that experience. And the other that she mentioned about a case, I'm pretty sure I know the case to which she refers, and it was really the subject of multimedia opinions, and it arose out of the hotbed of intellectualism and liberalism in Ann Arbor. And everybody. I was chief justice at the time and was on a flight to San Francisco for a conference of chief justices. And I think I think I might have had Meghan with me at that time, but I read in the New York Times an article on the case, and it started out from a totally false premise or wrong, I should say, not false implies intention, but it was a wrong premise.

Michael Cavanagh [00:28:31]:
And if you looked at that case based on the fact, you know, you had little choice but to come out a totally different way than the media which would have surmised. So that's interesting that she remembers it as I do, that those two events stick out in both our cobweb.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:54]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask 5 more questions to delve deeper, typically only into the dad's mind, but we're gonna go into both of your minds to get a little perspective here today. In one word, what is fatherhood?

Michael Cavanagh [00:29:08]:
Responsibility. For me, one word.

Megan Cavanagh [00:29:10]:
I say engagement.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:11]:
Now, Megan, when was a time that you feel that your dad succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Megan Cavanagh [00:29:19]:
There's a lot. I'm trying to think, you know, there are some of the obvious ones. You know, the first that came into my mind was not a particular event necessarily, but what came into my mind is when I had kids, when I first had my daughter. And my oldest daughter was there were some difficulty. I mean, she was it was I had difficulty getting pregnant, right, of she was IVF, and then there were some complications when she was born and she spent time in the NICU. And I guess in that regard of feeling sort of supported is where I think he definitely and just it's the most amazing thing, like, that nobody ever sort of can describe well enough, but it's the most amazing feeling to see he and my mom are they're the one people who love your kids as much as you love your own kid. Nobody else can sort of fill that role.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:12]:
And, Michael, what about you? When was the time that you felt that you finally succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Michael Cavanagh [00:30:18]:
Well, I don't know. I'm not sure I've arrived at that time yet. As as I've seen all 3 of our children evolve at different stages and arrive at where they have, come to rest currently. I feel that my wife and I have been successful, and it probably is a feeling that we've experienced each step along the way that you wish the best for them. You wish that they had a better opportunity than you did. Although, I certainly can't complain about the opportunities I had, but that they took advantage of them when they appeared to fit their circumstances. Every one of those made you feel well. Alright.

Michael Cavanagh [00:31:10]:
Maybe we've done something okay or something good.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:14]:
Now, Megan, if I was to talk to you and your siblings, how would you describe your dad?

Megan Cavanagh [00:31:19]:
I would say it's sort of almost sort of contradictory. He's this larger than life. He's incredibly accomplished. He's done so many things, so many people outside of it. I mean, this is a unique thing. It's not just not very often where you have a whole state and a whole profession and a whole whatever who every time they see you are like, do you have any idea how great your dad is? So that's a unique experience we get. So we get that, and yet at the same time, knowing that he's really one of the most humble people I know, and I think that that is partly that makes him such a it makes him a great dad, and I think it's the same thing that made him a great judge is that he has he keeps that sort of humility. And I think in deciding cases that he was always like, you know what? You know, sort of there, but for the grace of God, go I.

Megan Cavanagh [00:32:08]:
Like, he has that humility of of I'm not really any different than the person that's coming in front of me with their issues. So it's like this huge sort of superstar in my world currently, but somebody who who doesn't see himself that way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:24]:
And, Michael, who inspires you to be a better dad?

Michael Cavanagh [00:32:27]:
Yeah. That's interesting. My father grew up on a farm outside of Ottawa, Ontario in Canada and got to maybe the 6th grade. And I think at age 16 or 17, went to, Northern Ontario to work in a logging camp and then came back. He was the youngest of 7, so he didn't have a shot at inheriting the farm and wound up around 1915 coming to Detroit to get a job at ford motor company and he, worked at ford he went back and married my mother and then they came back, and all 6 of children were born in Detroit. But he worked at Ford for 42 years. He got up to 5:30 every morning, got on that bus with his lunch bucket, and, went to the boiler plant at Ford. How he did that for that length of time is beyond me, but he did.

Michael Cavanagh [00:33:34]:
And he was older when I was born. I was the last of the 6, and and my dad, I think, was about 52 when I was born. So he he wasn't able, really, to be that involved in the father's club or different events like that at the school. And he was a strong disciplinarian, but there was never a second. I think as long as any of I or any of our siblings thought about that, we didn't think he loved us. And it's interesting. He had he had trouble, I think, being emotional, although he was, but expressing him. So, like, I can never recall him telling me that he loved me, but there would never a doubt in my mind even, I mean, that the discipline was a form of love.

Michael Cavanagh [00:34:33]:
And I, you know, I still get a little moist in the eyes when I think of my wedding in Toronto. And, how he came into my room before I left for their church. I was finishing up with my bow tie or something, and he came in and kinda gave me a hug, which was not real usual for him and slipped me a $100 bill. And I'll never forget that. And it's, man. That was, I realized, a big effort for him. And it's interesting because I tried to not miss opportunities to tell my 3 children that I love them. And it's interesting.

Michael Cavanagh [00:35:19]:
Our kids wind up phone calls with us invariably with telling them they love us. So it was he was a great example. And as I say, he lived by example and showed me by example how a good father should be. But that was, you know, for him way back in, in the time of the father doing the work and providing the financial support and the mother doing all the raising.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:49]:
Appreciate you sharing that. Now, Megan, you and your dad have both given different pieces of advice today, and I'm gonna give you both an opportunity to answer this question. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every father of a daughter?

Megan Cavanagh [00:36:03]:
I think if I did, I think and I try and do this myself, so it's not just necessarily limited to dads. But I think in raising kids is and it's it's hard. I find it very hard for me to do is admit when you're wrong and apologize because there's usually some part of whatever happened that, yes, the kid had some involvement in that, but there's any sort of negative interaction. There's there's some thing on your part as well. And even if you can't sort of always get it right, at least you can show them that you recognize that you didn't get it right. And I think it's really is a gift for them because they're not always gonna get it right. They're gonna make, you know that's why you're showing them by example. It's okay to admit that you've made mistakes, but when the the actually stronger thing to do is not just to get it right in the first place, but to recognize when you get it wrong and express that you're gonna try and do it better next time.

Megan Cavanagh [00:37:00]:
And that can be hard to do as a parent because a lot of times you're not supposed to get this you know, I'm not I'm supposed to have the answers. I'm supposed to do everything right. I'm supposed to get to the right place, but I think it it helps and help kids recognize that in recognizing that I am human, that they are human as well, and that they're gonna make mistakes, but that that's gonna be okay and that they can get better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:21]:
What about you, Michael? What would you say in regards to a piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad of a daughter?

Michael Cavanagh [00:37:27]:
I might be kind of dated, but I guess I would urge them to urge their daughters to, diagram sentences, to take Latin in, to be sure and tell them that you love them.

Megan Cavanagh [00:37:41]:
Not necessarily in that order.

Michael Cavanagh [00:37:42]:
Certainly, the last of that is the most important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:46]:
Well, you could always say I love you in Latin, and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Michael Cavanagh [00:37:49]:
I'm okay.

Megan Cavanagh [00:37:50]:
I was gonna say he's gonna do it. I don't think I could even though I had some 2 years of it. Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:55]:
Well, I wanted to say thank you. Thank you, Megan. Thank you, Michael, for being here today, for sharing your own journey, and for being here with us. And I wish you both the best.

Michael Cavanagh [00:38:05]:
Thank you. It was enjoyable. Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:09]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them.

Be the best that you can be.
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Exploring Healthy Masculinity: A Conversation with Suraj Arshanapally
1 juil.· Dads With Daughters
In the realm of fatherhood and raising daughters, the concept of healthy masculinity plays a crucial role in shaping family dynamics and individual growth. The Dads with Daughters podcast recently featured Suraj Arshanapally, the founder of the multicultural man initiative, shedding light on the importance of cultural diversity and healthy masculinity. Through the power of storytelling and introspection, Suraj's journey encapsulates the evolution of masculinity, challenging stereotypes and encouraging authenticity in self-expression.

Cultural Diversity and Personal Identity

Suraj's upbringing in a bicultural household provided him with a unique perspective on masculinity and identity. Growing up with Indian heritage at home and American culture outside, he navigated conflicting messages about what it means to be a man. Suraj's experience with early facial hair development highlighted the impact of societal norms on self-perception. This narrative underscores the need to recognize and celebrate cultural differences in shaping individual identities and expressions of masculinity.

Reframing Healthy Masculinity

The concept of healthy masculinity, as explored by Suraj, emphasizes values that prioritize personal well-being and positive contributions to society. Through conversations with men from diverse backgrounds, Suraj discovered common themes of empathy, respect, and self-care as integral components of healthy masculinity. By rejecting outdated stereotypes and embracing introspection, men can redefine what it means to embody strength and vulnerability in their roles as fathers and community members.

Fatherhood and Active Parenting

A critical aspect of healthy masculinity lies in active fatherhood and caregiving roles. Suraj highlights the significance of modeling positive behavior and values for children, emphasizing the impact of parental actions on shaping a child's worldview. By fostering empathy, respect, and open communication within the family, fathers can cultivate a supportive environment that promotes individual growth and emotional well-being.

Empowering Future Generations

Looking towards the future, the multicultural man initiative aims to extend its reach to children, advocating for inclusive narratives and empowering young individuals to embrace their authentic selves. By promoting diverse representations of masculinity and encouraging self-expression from an early age, the initiative seeks to dismantle harmful stereotypes and foster a culture of acceptance and understanding among future generations.

Encouraging Introspection and Dialogue

In promoting healthy masculinity, fathers can play a pivotal role in fostering introspection and open dialogue with their children. By exposing children to diverse perspectives and challenging societal norms, fathers can instill values of empathy, inclusivity, and self-acceptance in the next generation. Through mindful language and supportive interactions, fathers can create a nurturing environment that nurtures individual growth and self-confidence.
The intersection of cultural diversity, healthy masculinity, and fatherhood forms a compelling narrative that promotes personal growth, understanding, and empathy. The stories shared by Suraj Arshanapally and the multicultural man initiative serve as a beacon for individuals seeking to redefine masculinity, embrace authenticity, and cultivate meaningful connections within their families and communities. Through introspection, dialogue, and a commitment to positive change, fathers can lead by example in fostering a future where healthy masculinity thrives, and individuals are empowered to be their true selves.
TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to sit down, talk to you every week, be able to bring you different people that are going to open your minds and allow you to think about things in a little bit different way because it is so important for you and I to know that we don't have to do this alone. We don't have to go about fatherhood alone. There are so many people around us that can offer support, offer resources, offer a listening ear. Whatever it may be, There are many people that have gone before us, many people that will come after us that we can help along the way as well. That's what this show is all about. It is here to help you in this journey and for you and I to learn together because, as you know, I've got 2 daughters myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]:
So it is important for me to learn and be open to learning and know that the learning doesn't stop as they get older. It continues, and we have to continue to be able to support our daughters as they get into adulthood as well. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests that can bring different perspectives for you to consider, for you to put tools in your own toolbox. And this week, we've got another great guest with us today. Suraj Arashnapalli is with us today. And Suraj is the founder of the multi cultural man, which is a initiative that uses storytelling to celebrate cultural diversity and healthy masculinity. So we're going to be talking about this journey that Siraj has been on to get people talking, to to really bring stories out into the open and to go even deeper into these stories. And I'm really excited to have him here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]:
Suraj, thanks so much for being here today. So I guess first and foremost, I mentioned that you started the multicultural management journey back in 2023. And I guess, 1st and foremost, I'd love to turn the clock back just a little bit. I'd love to for you to get into your head a little bit about why this was important to you, why you felt the calling to try to bring these stories out into the world.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:02:37]:
Started this in 2023, but I kind of wanna turn the clock a little bit more to my childhood. So my parents immigrated to the US from India. And what that did for me was gift me with 2 cultures. So I had Indian culture in my household and I had American culture everywhere else. And so I would parse out what customs and traditions and ideologies belong to each culture, but also what resonated with me. And growing up, I was really informative to my worldview and my identity, but simultaneously, I was also receiving a lot of messages around masculinity. So I would receive messages such as, like, boys and men do this, but they don't do that, or they can act this way, but they can act that way. And so I there it was really confusing trying to figure out who I could be and and how I wanted to move through the world.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:03:32]:
And something that I also recognized was that a lot of these messages didn't account for my cultural identity or my cultural experience. So one one story that I can share when around the time of puberty, maybe even a little bit earlier, my experience was that I grew facial hair much earlier than my peers. And my classmates found this confusing, and I found it confusing because I didn't know. I didn't see anyone that looked like me. And so what this did was, like, my facial hair was used as a reason to other me or differentiate me, and I ended up going clean shaven for, like, the next decade of my life because I associated facial hair to be abnormal through this messaging. But then at some point in my adulthood, that messaging flipped, and essentially, facial hair was seen in I thought And I thought, you know, this is really confusing because this is not the messaging that I received earlier on. And so what it taught me was that one, are the messages around masculinity are malleable. They evolve.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:04:41]:
They aren't set in stone, and so we shouldn't take them that way. And then it also taught me that we need to widen our definition of masculinity and the messaging around masculinity to encompass all types of men from different cultural backgrounds as well as people who identify with a masculine gender expression. And so I started to have conversations about this intersection with other men in my life and friends and found that my facial hair story was just one of many stories. There were, there were a lot of stories where men would tell me about a specific identity, whether it was, like, their queer identity or religious identity, or they would tell me about a specific aspect of their personality, like, they were an empathetic person or that they really connected with, you know, the the women in their lives. And those were used as reasons to differentiate them in their lives from the other men because it didn't fit into that quote, unquote norm when we think about masculinity or the messaging around masculinity. And I found this really unfortunate because I found that a lot of these aspects that the men in my life were hiding or not sharing with the world were connected to healthy masculinity and the types of values I wanted to see in the world. And so that's kind of the evolution of why I started the multicultural man. You know, these series of conversations showed me that I need to put a spotlight on these culturally diverse stories of healthy masculinity to really amplify

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:21]:
It's so such an interesting And then ultimately, to widen our definition of what we see as masculine.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:26]:
Every person has their own version of it in some different way, whether it's culturally based or socioeconomically based or other there's so many different factors that make a person who they are. And part of that is their understanding, their definition of what a man is. And a lot of times that comes out of, in my perspective, the men that they grow up with, the men that they see or they interact with, and they start to emulate those individuals. Going back to your story, I guess I would love to unpack that a little bit because I'm sure that around you, when you said you were talking about the facial hair story for yourself when you were growing up and coming into that facial hair when no one else in your peer group was, but the men around you did. So you saw these 2 worlds colliding for yourself. And you said it took a a number of years for you to get to a point where you accepted that. What did you have to do for yourself to come to that acceptance and be able to live an authentic life for yourself?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:07:40]:
I think at the time, I didn't accept myself. I just didn't know how to navigate having facial hair amongst a lot of people. A lot of the the boys my age didn't have facial hair. The men in my life did, but that seemed like a very different age group. You know? And I remember when I was a child, one term that I was called was man child because the boys around me didn't know how to they they saw the men in their lives with facial hair or older siblings, and then they also saw me. And so that was it was confusing at the time, and it took me a while to figure out how to appreciate facial hair. I think it was the conversations that I've been having with men around culture and masculinity. So one conversation that comes to mind is a conversation I had with with this man named JJ.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:08:27]:
And JJ, his religious identity is sick. And in Sikhism, facial hair is honored and respected. And he was telling me how it was so important for him to maintain his facial hair, as part of his religious identity and the cultural significance that comes with it. Through that conversation, I realized that facial hair is just a part of my experience. I'm Indian American, and my outward appearance is going to look different than others around me who aren't, who don't identify with that. And I really appreciated having that conversation with JJ because he was able to share his experience and put a spotlight on why it's something that's part of our identities that we should be able to achieve some of this services. It wasn't a dream of the military experience for yourself. As you said, you wanted to bring stories out into the open to explore healthy masculinity. Define for me healthy masculinity because every person is going to have a little bit different definition of that for themselves.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:09:35]:
Yeah. I'm glad you said that because this is this is something I think about quite often. So if we were to define masculinity as maybe a list of traits and behaviors that are typically associated with boys and men, or we define it as an energy for how you move through the world, regardless of how you define it. I would say a healthier form of masculinity is that form of masculinity that prioritizes your health, but also the health and well-being of your loved ones and your community at large. And so there are a couple ways that I've been thinking about this. And one way it evolved from the conversations that I've been having with men around their understanding of healthy masculinity. And that first way is about that list of traits. So for many years, a lot of these men had received messaging around what they can and can't do or how they can and can't behave.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:10:28]:
And so a lot of these messages, and I'm sure you've heard many of these, are that, you know, boys don't cry and don't be weak and boys are strong. And when you connect those with how it manifests that they need to prioritize self reliance in an unhealthy way. So if they feel like they need help, whether they're going through a mental health crisis or whether they're not feeling well physically. Whatever it may be, they may need to reach out for medical help, but they may see it as a sign of weakness, and they should just rely on themselves to get through it. And so these aspects or these messages around masculinity that many of us received when we were young weren't the best for our health because they didn't teach us how to prioritize our health. And so a lot of these men are doing are rejecting those messages by turning them into messages that they can live healthier lives. So that might mean that they express their emotions, or it might mean that they figure out ways to prioritize their mental and physical health, or they when they are in a conflict, they figure out how to navigate it peacefully, or they are active fathers in their children's lives. I resonate with this approach because I think it helps really prioritize health and well-being of oneself and the community.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:11:52]:
But another the the other approach that I wanna touch on is one that I started to think about more through the conversations I've been having with other men, and it's a little bit more of an introspective approach. And it requires one to think about their values and what values are important to them and also what values they want to see exemplified and embodied in society. So one example for me is I grew up in a Hindu household. And so in Hinduism, there is one value, how I move through the world using a peaceful approach. So when conflicts arise, I channel this value and I figure out a way to mediate them in a nonviolent peaceful way. And when I think about the values that are important to me, I share them with others. And Then through these conversations, I've learned about other values that are important to other men. Brian Anderson, who I recently had a conversation with for the multicultural man is a great example.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:13:07]:
I remember when Brian was speaking about his Catholic background and then his role as a father, he spoke about servant leadership being a really integral part of his being and the way he, you know, he moves through the world. And so when he, he spoke about when he thinks about the actions he takes, he for or what decisions he wants to make, he thinks about his children and the community and the impacts that it'll have on them. And that'll help him decide whether he wants to take those actions. And so I've learned a lot about the value systems that are connected to healthy masculinity as well. And and so that's a long answer, but it's the two approaches that I think about when I think about healthy masculinity. The rejection, the negative messages, but also about value system

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:52]:
who is the cofounder of Gathering Together. And there's been others, other conversations that you've been collecting since 2023. What have you learned thus far? And what are you taking out of those conversations that are helping to frame your own masculinity?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:14:15]:
Yeah. So it's been really interesting because I have talked to several men across cultural traditions. And I actually I recently started documenting them in 2023, but I'd been having these conversations since around 2020. And it's been fascinating to learn about the ways that men are thinking about masculinity, or they haven't thought about masculinity and learn in the moment and how their experiences while so culturally diverse and pull from different cultural values and have different experiences, we're able to share a lot of similarities. And when I ask people what it means to be, to be a man that moves through the world in a healthy way, or like what healthy masculinity means. I get a lot of the same answers. It means to be a good person. It means to approach society in a peaceful way and to care about people to be empathetic, and those are values that I really resonate with as well.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:15:18]:
And so I think for me, something that I have learned from from these conversations is that I need to really do some more introspection on what is important to me. And when something feels off in terms of the socialization around masculinity, like, I feel nervous asking for help in this very particular situation, it's important for me to ask myself why and figure out what the connection to health, whether it's myself or society is. And I think that allows me to approach life in a healthier way. And so if anything, these conversations have taught me that I have a lot to learn.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:04]:
Now not every dad, not every man is ready to unpack all of that for themselves. Sometimes it's going to take them some time to be able to have those internal dialogues or find someone that they're willing to talk to about these issues. From the conversations that you've had thus far and introspection that you've done yourself, are there things that men can and maybe should be doing to be able to start moving themselves in that, we'll say, right direction of being able to be introspective that can help them then to better understand themselves, which then allows them to understand themselves as fathers?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:16:49]:
Yeah. You know, it's a good question. And, you know, I'm not I'm not a father yet, but I thought about this because with this being a podcast centered around fatherhood, you know, what is the connection between healthy masculinity and fatherhood? And one trait that I think about when I think about healthy masculinity is active fatherhood and caregiving. And I believe that this value or aspect of healthy masculinity is really important for us as a society. When someone becomes a father, they don't abandon their value systems. If anything, it's even stronger because now you have little ones who are watching your every move, who are learning from you, and who you were teaching as a father. And so I think if the one piece of advice that I would give, or I would give myself, I should say, who hopes to be a father, is to really think about how I want to show up in the world, whether it's my day to day actions, whether it's how I handle challenges, you know, in the household, whether minor or large. And if it's something that I would want my kids to emulate, then I can keep moving forward.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:18:01]:
But if it's not, then I should probably figure out why I'm doing that and make some changes. And, and I think this is important because, so when I'm a father, I want my children to grow up in a society that values empathy, that values empathy and respect and health and peace. And I think it's important that if I want those values to show up in society, that I live out those values myself. And I'm not a father yet, so I can think about this prior, but I think anyone at any stage in their fatherhood journey can do some of this thought work and introspection there are more stories to tell and more stories to explore. What's the future of the multicultural man?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:18:52]:
So right now, I have been conducting interviews like we mentioned, and that has been really fruitful, and I've learned so much. And I document those on the website. And then I also have a newsletter where I reflect on values related to healthy masculinity, and I talk about lessons I've learned from other cultural traditions. And that that I and I really enjoyed that as well. What it feels like currently is that I am speaking to adults and it feels really healing to me, specifically my inner child to share these stories. But the future, I would say, of the multicultural man is to do more work with children and really make an impact on the lives of children because I would love for these stories to help widen our definitions of what masculinity is. Ultimately, I see I would want the messaging around masculinity to allow kids to live their lives as authentically as possible from the beginning of their life to adulthood and to feel free to be and do whatever they want and to not feel limited by any identity or ability due to the messaging or the social expectations around masculinity. And while I don't know what entirely that looks like in practice for the multicultural man yet.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:20:16]:
That's the direction I would love to head. But for right now, I'm finding a lot of value talking to other adults about their experiences around masculinity from different cultural traditions, but also doing a lot of introspection myself and sharing those thoughts through the newsletter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]:
The to think about things, on a deeper level earlier and break down some of those stereotypes and explore the some of the norms and values of society. But I guess one of the things that I would ask is that there are many fathers that also have sons. And as they are raising their sons, are there things that they could be doing, should be doing to be able to encourage these type of introspections, these type of conversations to help them to find that healthy manhood for themselves that they can start at an earlier age.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:21:19]:
I think some of the things that we can do is, from a very young age, introduce diversity of people, whether it's through children's book or, you know, children's television or through the stories we share with children. We want them to see the world for what it is, you know, a very culturally diverse space, where people look and identify in all different ways. And that can help from a young age, increase their empathy and towards other people and increase awareness. So that's one thing that I think fathers can do for sons, daughters, for any children. Another thing that comes to mind is, and I'll share a story. So when I was around 4th grade, I remember we had gone on a class field trip and it was to a library. And I was flipping through a book and I remember overhearing some of the adults talking and the adults were talking about our reading scores and reading speeds. And they had mentioned one of my classmates who was a girl.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:22:17]:
Her reading speed was on par for what it was supposed to be for our grade. And then I had overheard them talk about mine and mine was lower. But they justified it by saying boys learn slower. And so I remember hearing that message. And, you know, I was young at the time. I didn't have the tools or the ability to contextualize what that meant, but that message stuck with me throughout my whole school experience, the shortcut or the easy way out. And I think it the shortcut or the easy way out. And I think it was unfortunate because as an adult, I now read and I do that voluntarily.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:22:57]:
And I think about all the years I missed out because I didn't feel confident around reading because I thought, am I destined to just be slower at this? And that message made me feel like my reading speed was a metric I needed to use to measure my success or my, yeah, my confidence. But but it wasn't something I really needed to be measuring at all. I just needed to enjoy reading. And so the reason I'm sharing this story is because I think the messages we share with children, while inadvertently could be harmful, but, you know, obviously weren't intended that way is that messages stick with children. They pick up on what we're saying. And so we want to make sure we are using language that empowers them because at the time we may say something, but they're not gonna be able to contextualize what it actually means. And we want to ensure that they feel they feel confident in their skin and their ability to be and do whatever they want is validated and encouraged. And so I would say between these two things, sharing culturally diverse stories with children from a young age, and also being very intentional around the messaging that we use when we speak with children or speak about children because if they're listening are a couple of things that we can do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:17]:
Well, Suraj, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing to encourage men to explore healthy masculinity in a different way, to share their stories. And if people wanna find out more about the multicultural man, sign up for the newsletter, learn about the stories that are being captured. Where should they go?

Suraj Arshanapally [00:24:36]:
So you can go to the multiculturalman.com, and you'll find all the information there. Or you can go to the multiculturalman.substack.com for the Substack newsletter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:47]:
Well, again, Suraj, thank you so much for all the work that you're doing. I look forward to seeing all the stories that come in the future, and I wish you all the best.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:24:55]:
Thank you. Thank you so much, Chris. And I just I just wanted to add real quick that I had listened to a previous episode of the podcast and it was the one with Sean Harvey. And I really appreciated it because you had both talked about the importance of people checking in. And I love that how it connected to healthy masculinity, because I think oftentimes when we talk about just being a man in general, but also as fathers, it's seen as a sign of weakness to ask for help and to be in community with others to want that social interaction. Isolating experience without that community. And so I just wanted to thank you for all the isolating experience without that community. And so I just wanted to thank you for all the work that you're doing around fathering together and building community for fathers.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:25:45]:
So it inspires me because when I'm a father one day, it's just nice to know that you've built this community that is welcoming and open for everyone to join. And I'm excited for it. So I just wanted to say thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:59]:
Well, I do appreciate it. And I've said this before, and I'll say it again for any father that's out there, any man that's out there that it is so important to be open to be I'm gonna use it again, the v word vulnerable. It's important to be vulnerable and to know that, as I said at the beginning, you don't have to do this alone. And there are so many men around you that may be struggling with the same things that you're struggling with as a father, as a man. And so often, we bottle it up and think we just have to push through, and you don't have to. You can ask for help. You can talk to someone. Put yourself out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:36]:
Maybe hard at first, but once you rip off that Band Aid, it becomes easier. So, Suraj, thank you. Thank you for that. I really appreciate it. And as I said, I do wish you all the best in the journey to come.

Suraj Arshanapally [00:26:47]:
Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:48]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dotorg. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:37]:
We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat. And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen.

Get out and be the world. Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.
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The Evolution of a Single Dad: Balancing Sacrifice, Support, and Self-Discovery
24 juin· Dads With Daughters
Fatherhood is a deeply personal and transformative journey that challenges individuals in unexpected ways. In the podcast episode of Dads with Daughters, guest Rob Rohde shares his profound experiences as a single father to five daughters, shedding light on the complexities and rewards of parenting. Through his candid reflections and discussions with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Rob's story unveils the evolution of his role as a father, from initial fears and struggles to moments of growth and resilience.

Embracing Vulnerability:

Rob Rohde's admission of neglecting self-care early on as a single father resonates with many parents who prioritize their children's well-being above their own. By falling into the trap of self-sacrifice, Rob recognized the detrimental impact it had on his mental and emotional health. Through support from his family and other men, Rob acknowledged the importance of self-care and the necessity of addressing his own needs while being a pillar of strength for his daughters.

Facing Challenges and Self-Reflection:

The journey of fatherhood is not without its challenges, as Rob Rohde discovered through personal struggles and moments of feeling lost. His realization of the fractured relationships with his older daughters prompted introspection and personal growth. By asking himself tough questions about his parenting and taking responsibility for his role in the family dynamics, Rob embarked on a path of self-discovery and improvement.

Supporting Through Loss and Trauma:

The loss of the girls' mother posed a significant emotional hurdle for Rob and his daughters, highlighting the importance of navigating grief and supporting each child's unique needs. Rob's account of being asked to identify his late wife's body by the sheriff's department illuminates the profound depth of his challenges. Despite the traumatic event, Rob's unwavering dedication to his daughters' well-being and his commitment to open communication and support illustrate the resilience of the human spirit in times of adversity.

Lessons in Connection and Bonding:

Rob Rohde's emphasis on understanding nonverbal cues and fostering meaningful connections with his daughters underscores the power of effective communication and emotional intelligence in parenting. By prioritizing quality time and creating a safe environment for his children, Rob cultivates strong bonds built on trust and understanding.

Empowering Other Fathers:

Rob's journey as a single father inspired him to become a coach for other dads facing similar struggles, providing personalized support and guidance. By acknowledging the common challenges and complexities of single fatherhood, Rob aims to customize his coaching approach to address individual needs and empower men on their parenting journey.

In the realm of fatherhood, each experience is a unique tapestry of growth, challenges, and triumphs. Rob Rohde's narrative exemplifies the transformative power of self-reflection, vulnerability, and unwavering support in navigating the complexities of parenting. As fathers embrace their roles with openness and authenticity, they pave the way for meaningful connections and enduring bonds with their children.
By sharing his story and insights, Rob Rohde inspires a community of fathers to embrace their journey with grace, resilience, and an unwavering commitment to supporting their daughters through every twist and turn of life's tapestry. Through vulnerability and self-discovery, fathers can truly become the anchors of love and support that their children need to thrive and blossom.
TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the dads with daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week and every week I love it. I'm being able to just be here to be part of this journey that you're on. And you're a part of my journey too. I have to tell you about my kids, and I love hearing about the journeys that you're on as well. And I appreciate so much that you come back every week and are able to learn and grow with all of the dads and all of the people that we have on the show. It has been an amazing ride over these last few years as we have had so many amazing guests that have shared their own journey, shared resources and more to help you be that dad that you wanna be for your daughters. And that's important because none of us have all the answers.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:07]:
None of us have to do this alone. And it's important to be able to reach out to learn to be able to be a little vulnerable. Yes. I said that word vulnerability. Yes. Being a little vulnerable and knowing that you don't have to do this alone and that you can reach out. You can learn about other ways of doing things and incorporate things into your own parenting journey that makes sense. Not everything you're gonna hear on every show is gonna make sense for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]:
I get that. And what's most important is that you're here, you come back, you listen every week, and you're willing to learn. This week, we've got another great guest with us today. Rob Rode is with us. And Rob is a single dad of 5 daughters. Yes, I said 5 daughters. And and I said single dad. So we're gonna be talking about that as well and the journey that he has been on with his own daughters. I'm really excited to have him on and to have him share some of the journey that he's had. Rob, thanks so much for being here today.

Rob Rohde [00:02:10]:
Hi, Chris. I am happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]:
It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And I wanna turn the clock back in time. I know you've got 5 daughters and your oldest daughters are in their twenties. So adults now, but I wanna go all the way back because I know your oldest are twins.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]:
Let's go all the way back to that first moment. That first moment when you found out that you're going to be a dad to a daughter, what was going through your head?

Rob Rohde [00:02:35]:
Wow. Well, my story is actually a little bit different in that my oldest daughters were already born when I met them. So I started dating their mom when they were about 2 years old. And so I, you know, I knew at the time that I started seeing their mom that she had daughters and she had twin daughters. And so if I was gonna make a decision to continue in that relationship and to, go down that path, I I knew that being a father was part of it. And so there wasn't this single moment in time where I realized, oh, you're gonna be a dad to daughters. It was more of a kind of a a slow journey. But I will say this, one of the more kind of unique and exciting things that I get to tell my oldest 2 daughters is that I got to choose to be their dad.

Rob Rohde [00:03:22]:
I got to choose them specifically. And that's something that's kind of unique and kind of exciting. And so the story is, is that after their mom and I got married, their father, biological father, was never in the picture. And so I wanted to start the process of trying to adopt them. And so after several years of going down that road, I did adopt them. And so, now they are not just mine in spirit, they are fully mine and will always be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:50]:
I love that story and the journey that you're on. And and so one I guess one other question is that so you had a few years with just those 2, and then you ended up having your next daughters. And at that point, that had to have been a little bit more of a surprise because of the fact that that you didn't come into the relationship where those daughters were there. So talk to me about that reaction that you had when those next daughters came into your life.

Rob Rohde [00:04:17]:
It was definitely different, but I I have to tell you, I I was so excited. We did not with my 3rd daughter now, so the one the first one that you're talking about, we did not know whether or not she was going to be a girl or a boy. So that moment came in the delivery room when she was actually born. And so, you know, when I always wanted to have a large family, and I was excited about that. And I was excited for to already have the 2 older girls and now to be kind of starting a expanding that family further. And so the moment that I saw her, it was amazing. I mean, I think the thing that a lot of a lot of people don't tell you is just they talk about the fear, and they talk about the all the worries, and they talk about the stress. But they don't talk really about how you literally fall in love with this little child in a different way, but a similar way to how you you fall in love with a spouse. And that it but it happens so quickly for some of us. And in this situation, it happened almost right away from the moment I saw her.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]:
Now you just mentioned fear in a lot of dads that I talked to talk about that with having daughters, that there is some fear that went along with that. For you having 5 daughters. What's been your biggest fear in raising your daughters?

Rob Rohde [00:05:37]:
You know, initially, my biggest fear was just simply fear that I was going to screw them up. You know, I mean, that sounds so simple and so basic, but it was just fear that maybe I wasn't equipped to connect with them in the way that they needed or to or I wasn't patient enough or, you know, I didn't really have all the tools that I needed in order to to really take care of daughters and to to be that type of dad that they needed from me. But I will say that that fear changed significantly as they started to get older. And once I became a single father, that anxiety turned into just into a complete lack of knowing whether or not I had the ability to take care of them on my own, and a feeling of overwhelm and everything that goes along with that. But now that the kids are a little bit older, the anxiety that I face or the fear that I face is more around whether or not I did the work and did the things that I needed to do when they were younger to really build that foundation for them. And whether or not they you know, every dad is going to fear for the safety of their kids, and in particular, their daughters. I think that that's just always there. And there's only so much you can do to protect them as they grow and as they become older.

Rob Rohde [00:06:57]:
And, you know, your hope is that you have done the work early on so that now that they are in this stage of their life, that they have the tools that they need, they have that sense of self worth and security. They have the love for themselves and the the knowledge that they have value to offer the world. And, you know, you we really just want to raise daughters who are confident, secure, love themselves, and treat others well. And the fear is whether or not we've done our work early on in order to set them up to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:28]:
Now one of the things that you just talked about was that anxiety that you felt, especially as became a single father and the questioning of your own abilities to be able to manage things to to deal with things. I'm sure that during that process, you had to do some things for yourself to be able to manage that anxiety, to get past that anxiety, to be able to then be there for your daughters. Talk to me about that journey for yourself and what you had to do to get yourself in a place where you were able to get to that point of, I'm gonna say acceptance in some ways, but but how it's in getting to that point where you were okay with where you were, but then at the same time, where you were okay with where your daughters were and able to support them for what they needed?

Rob Rohde [00:08:15]:
Well, so if I'm being fully honest, I did not do a good job of taking care of myself early on. I fell into the trap that so many of us dads fall into, which is trying to be that rock of stability and trying to make sure that we're that pillar for our children. And we put all of our energy and all of our resources into making sure that they have what they need. And we almost do it, or I almost did it, almost like a badge of honor. Like, I'm gonna put my needs to the side and make sure that they have everything they need. I'm gonna always put them first. And I did that to my detriment. And I it took me time to realize that that was not helpful for them, and they were not getting the best version of me when I was trying to go that direction.

Rob Rohde [00:08:59]:
So the help that I did have, though, from the beginning is I did have a strong support group within my family. I had a group of of relatives, uncles, cousins, my father, other men who were in my corner and who kept me grounded and helped provide me with the confidence that I needed and kept me kind of going in that positive direction.

Rob Rohde [00:09:19]:
But there was also this period of time where I felt lost, and I felt like I was not doing what to do, and I was not taking care of myself. And when I first became a single father, I went into this trap of I was drinking single father, I went into this trap of, I was drinking too much, I wasn't sleeping well, I was not exercising, not eating healthy. I wasn't doing any of the things that I needed to do to take care of myself. And it really took those men that I, that I spoke about earlier kind of stepping into my life and saying, hey, Rob, you need to make a change, and you need to really take a look at the example you're setting for your daughters and kind of get out of this funk that you're in. And I will say that I did seek out help after that, and I I sought out help in the form of of counselors and mentors and other men, And I just leaned on people and started doing my own work. And I went through this period early on where I was just blaming everybody for everything. And I was blaming my ex wife for maybe saying derogatory things about me, and I was blaming my job for forcing me to work so much. And I was blaming my older daughters because I not appreciating everything I did because my relationship with them was fractured.

Rob Rohde [00:10:30]:
And we really had a a challenge early on. And so it took me a while to get out of that place of blame and start working on myself as opposed to just pointing the finger outward and pointing the finger at others. And to me, what was this turning point for me is I was listening to the words of a host on a leadership podcast who was talking about a situation where him as a leader fell short on his goals. And he had to report up to his boss, and his boss asked him this question. He asked him, how has your leadership contributed to this result? And I heard those words, and I immediately went to my older daughters. And I turned that back at me and asked myself, how has your parenting contributed to this result? How has your parenting led to these fractured relationships that you're currently in with your older daughters? And that was a moment that really just sunk in. Those were words that just sunk in and really entered into my mind. And I remember sitting alone when I heard this, when I was listening to this.

Rob Rohde [00:11:35]:
My kids were at their mom's house. I was alone in the house, up in my room, and I remember turning to the mirror and looking at myself and just being disgusted with the person that I had become, disgusted with this person who was blaming everybody else for everything and who was not taking responsibility for my own actions. And I knew I needed to make a change. And so I did. I told myself that I need to be doing things better moving forward. My daughters need a better version of me moving forward. And so to to answer your question, at that point, I became completely engrossed in learning everything I could possibly learn about leadership, parenting, raising daughters, raising sons, which I didn't even have. But just anything I could come up with that would help me be a better parent, a better leader for my family, and really kind of diving back into my own personal growth.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]:
I appreciate you sharing that because I think that many dads can fall into that trap and fall into that situation where you, as you said, you blame yourself and you start spiraling down that and not every person is gonna be willing to admit that and to deal with it the way that you have. So I appreciate you sharing that and being willing to share that with everyone today. Now, as you were going through that, and going through your own process of being able to get to a better place to be able to then be there for your own daughters. As you go through that yourself, as you're raising your daughters, it's not always easy. There are definite hard points. What would you say has been the hardest part of being a father to a daughter?

Rob Rohde [00:13:11]:
I would say the hardest part is really recognizing the uniqueness in each individual. And that was especially hard for me starting off with twins who were already 2 years old when I met them, 4 years old when we got married, and 7 when the adoption finally went final. And I kind of had it in my head that, okay, I know how I wanna be a parent. And if I do things a certain way, then it's going to be effective. If I do it from a place of love, then I do it from a place of caring, then it'll be effective. But it really wasn't. The things that I was trying were not working. And you know, there's this uniqueness when you're raising twins, in that the primary person that they turn to for recognition, for support, and for a the person that they wanna please more than anyone else in the world is not their parents.

Rob Rohde [00:14:07]:
It's each other. And that's a unique dynamic that I didn't appreciate. And even as twins, they're quite different. And so, I will say the hardest thing for me was the recognizing that I needed to be a different parent to each of my children. Same level of accountability and the same level of responsibility for them, but a different person. The way that I connected with them had to be different. The way that I related with them had to be different. And the way that I showed them that I love them and I cared for them had to be different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]:
Now you and I have had a conversation at the beginning of our talk today before we went live. And one of the things you shared with me was also a really hard story and something that you had to really work with your daughters on. And that was the loss of their mother or their for your daughters. Talk to me about that and what you had to do as a father to be able to support your daughters through that loss and help them to be resilient through that period. Because at that point, they would have been in their early twenties all the way down to 8. And as you said, you need to understand how you need what the needs are for each child. But the needs of that vast age range is gonna be very different in the loss of a parent.

Rob Rohde [00:15:28]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that was a difficult it's an understatement to say that that was a difficult time. I was working in healthcare at the time, and I was at work in the middle of the night. And the way that all this happened after there's a series of events that happened that led up to this, without going into all of those details, I received a phone call in the middle of the night on my shift at the hospital I was working at, and it was the sheriff's department, and they were asking me to help identify the body of the girl's mom. And even though there were a lot of challenges during that time, I was not expecting this. It was a huge shock. And in that moment, after I processed my own feelings, the quick version of processing my own feelings, I was sitting in this place where I felt like I am completely ill equipped to give my daughters what they need from me in this situation. And that was the worst day of my life really up to that point.

Rob Rohde [00:16:24]:
And as bad as it was for me, I knew that it was 10 times more difficult for my daughters. And that following morning, when I had to have that conversation with them and let them know what had happened, I mean, it was horrible. It was awful. And, you know, I did not know what they needed. I did not know how to support them. All I knew how to do was to share the information with them in a sensitive way and to hold them and be there for them and to let them try to process their feelings in that moment. And over time, we used all the resources that were available to us. And there were resources that the court helped provide us with, victim's advocate resources and counselors and things along those lines.

Rob Rohde [00:17:08]:
But as you said, each one of the children is different. And so I it's impossible for me to talk about this story and talk about this situation as if it's in past in the past because we are still dealing with this right now today. And I suspect that the girls in particular will be dealing with this for the rest their lives, at least on a certain level. For instance, my one of my daughters who is now 21 has spent years in counseling and has gone through a lot of work and done a lot of processing and really is in a really good place. But now that she's in a serious dating relationship, there are some aspects of this that are coming back up, and it's affecting her in ways that she didn't know, she didn't know enough to work through those feelings until they actually, till she was actually in this situation. And so it's an evolving process. And so the best thing that I felt that I was able to do is to just give the girls a space where they felt comfortable and safe sharing the feelings that they were having with me, and then listening to the emotions, listening to the words that they were saying, and providing them with the support out beyond myself when I was not able to give them everything they needed. I firmly believe that one of the best things that we can do as parents, one of the most effective things we can do as parents to truly connect and bond and have life changing meaningful relationships with our kids is to take the time to study them, to legitimately, thoroughly study them, to be able to learn their nonverbal cues, to be able to learn their body language, to be able to see the expressions and know when they're feeling anxiety, to know when they're feeling a sense of of fear or despair or any emotion.

Rob Rohde [00:18:58]:
And I think that we don't spend enough time doing that as parents. And the fact that I had a little bit of a foundation doing that, I think helped me in that situation, but I had doubled down on that and really tried to understand their nonverbal cues and to really get to to understand their feelings and where they were at.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:17]:
I really appreciate you sharing all of that. And I can only imagine that it is ongoing and it will continue to be ongoing. And just being there, like you said, is so important to be able to help your daughters to process and work through this to be able to help them in so many ways. Now, all of these things, all these things that you've been talking about, the journey that you've been on as a single dad to be able to be the father that you wanna be for your girls has led you to becoming a coach, a coach for single fathers. And I guess I'd love to hear a little bit of that origin story and what led you down this path of wanting to coach other single fathers in the journey that they're on?

Rob Rohde [00:20:00]:
Yeah, thank you for asking. I'm gonna tell a little story that kind of leads into this. And I'm kind of telling this in reverse order because I kind of told a portion of it a few minutes ago. But, you know, there was a moment shortly after the girl's mom and I separated when I was in the car driving over to pick up my daughters for their parenting time with me. And I remember as I was driving over, thoughts were racing through my head because I was struggling a little bit in my relationship with my older girls. I was working a ton. I was I would lose my patience at times. They blamed me for the divorce.

Rob Rohde [00:20:35]:
They were upset at me, and the truth is they had a right to be. But I was really genuinely trying. And I remember as I pull into the driveway thinking, this time is going to be different. This time I'm going to be more patient. This time, I'm gonna put their needs before mine. This time, I'm gonna put away all my distractions and give them my undivided attention. And as these thoughts were racing through my head, I froze as my, as the girl's mom walked out to the car alone and told me that the girls, my oldest girls, were not coming over to see me. That they didn't want to spend time with me.

Rob Rohde [00:21:13]:
They were upset with me. And I felt like a complete failure. My own daughters did did not wanna spend time with me. And that's when I kind of went through this place of really feeling all of this blame, putting all this blame on everyone else. And until I until over time, I realized that a very, very simple truth, which is that I can only control my reaction to situations. I cannot control other people. And I know how basic that is. I know how simple that is.

Rob Rohde [00:21:41]:
But sometimes the most simple truths make the biggest differences in our lives. And that was when I really started just educating myself and learning everything I I could learn and really trying to put myself in that place. But I had these feelings of exhaustion and fear and anxiety and inadequacy, and feeling like a failure, and feeling like there was a lack of resources to support me when I was in that place in my journey. And I'm telling this because that, along with all of my experiences that I've had, have led me to this place where I decided that I really wanted to provide the support and guidance to other men who are in the situation that I was in, but really the support and guidance that I didn't have, that I wish that I had had because it would have changed my journey, and it would have sped up my recovery with my daughters, and it would have sped up my growth, and it would have just made all the difference in the world. I didn't have that. I think that there is a lack of resources out there for single fathers in particular, and I wanted to step into that place based on my experience and my knowledge. And so I went and I got my degree, and I I got my master's degree in leadership, and I've taken coaching courses, and I've done everything I could to prepare myself. But I also have this breadth of experience that is unique, that not a lot of people have.

Rob Rohde [00:23:07]:
And so that is what went on inside my heart that led me to this place. And then what went on inside my mind and with my actions is is really that play wanting to step into that gap that existed so that I could help support other men. I mean, you've talked about this often on your podcast, which is that we do better when we link arms with other men. We are not meant to do this alone. We need accountability. We need mentorship. We need partnerships. And, you know, I could not agree with you more.

Rob Rohde [00:23:38]:
And that is a big piece of what I what I'm trying to provide.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:42]:
So you've opened yourself up to being that coach, that person that helped to other dads, as you've been going through that or yourself as you've been working with different dads, what are you learning? Oh, wow. I

Rob Rohde [00:24:00]:
Oh, wow. I am learning so very much with every conversation I have. I, some of the things that I have learned is how common some of these struggles are. And also, the similarities that exist regardless of age, regardless of age of the children, regardless of socioeconomic background, we all have a lot of the same fears and we all have a lot of the same desires. I think that my goal is to really meet people where they are at on their journey. I do have a step by step process that I take Minh through, but it is 100% customizable. And so the process is about the steps that we will take, but the ability for it to be customized is starting out by really understanding what it is that that individual man father wants out of this journey. What is his end goal? What is his desire? And really starting out with just trying to help that individual figure out what it is they want, and then we can customize that process to get there.

Rob Rohde [00:25:10]:
And some of the, you know, one of the first things that I do is we just walk through and see what is going on in their life that needs to be addressed right away. You know, we all have when we are in the middle of a chaotic situation, when there are fires going on in all aspects of our life, we're not in a position to really move forward and grow and learn. We need to set up some boundaries and set up our life so that we can optimize our ability to learn. And so we start by just identifying what is a single biggest issue that is holding you back right now and what are the steps we can take to address that issue. And that's the starting point. And then we go all the way through the process of talking about goals and vision and values and balance. But also, we don't lose sight of the fact that all men, in my opinion, have three things that they need in order to feel happy and successful. And those three things are deep meaningful connections, the pursuit of meaningful things, so meaningful pursuits or endeavors, and then they all need to feel alive.

Rob Rohde [00:26:23]:
They need something that allows them to feel, to get excited in the morning when they wake up. And so we always, everything that we do, we keep that in mind. What are you doing to feel alive? How are your relationships? How are your connections right now with your kids or your family or whatever is important to you? And what are you pursuing that is truly meaningful, that you're proud of? And so that's kind of the underlying theme that oversees everything that we do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:51]:
So you've developed this core framework, you're working with dads, you're helping to walk these dads through this journey. What's next for you in this progression of the work that you're doing?

Rob Rohde [00:27:04]:
You know, the next piece that I really want to step into is the community piece. And so, I really wanna move beyond the 1 on 1 coaching and move towards more of setting up the community. And so there are 2 ways that I am looking at doing that. And one of them is through group coaching with a, potentially with a digital course as a piece of that that goes along with that. But I really want to move into the community space because I feel like that is what we need as men more than anything. That is where we will see like exponential growth and the sustainability of the changes that are made is when we have a community that is joining us in the journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:51]:
Now, I always like to finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Rob Rohde [00:27:58]:
I am. Let's do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:59]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Rob Rohde [00:28:02]:
Responsibility.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:03]:
Now, when was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Rob Rohde [00:28:07]:
So I believe strongly in family culture and I believe strongly in establishing an environment where your values and meaning is all kind of comes together and into your culture as a family. And so one moment for me was shortly after, really not that long ago, a few months ago, I was leaving my 9 to 5 job and moving into this space full time. And after I came home, after my last day of work, I came home and there was basically, like, surprise celebration for me by my kids. And, you know, along with comments such as, dad, what can we do to kinda help you out so that you can have more time to be focusing on this, so that you can have more time for your clients, so you can have more time to do this. And the reason why that was a moment of success for me as a father, my kids were teaching me a lesson. My kids were showing me what it means to have a family culture of support and unconditional love and being there for each other and prioritizing family. And especially at the age that my kids are, for them to take the time to do that meant a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:16]:
Now, if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?

Rob Rohde [00:29:22]:
Well, I mean, if you got them in a good moment versus in a tough moment, I think that they would describe me across the board as as being loving and being supportive, but also having high expectations and standards, especially in terms of how we treat other people and the values we possess and pursuing meaningful things in our life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:48]:
And who inspires you to be a better dad?

Rob Rohde [00:29:50]:
The man in the mirror, to be honest with you. When I look at myself in the mirror and I I ask myself at one point, what kind of man do you wanna be? What kind of father do you wanna be? I wanna be able to look back. My goal is to be able to look back at that man each day and be proud of that person that I am, be proud of that father.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:11]:
You've given a lot of piece of advice, a lot of pieces of your own story that can help other dads to define a bit more of their own story. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to every dad?

Rob Rohde [00:30:23]:
So one piece of advice I'd like to give. Most people are going to tell you that the most important thing is to spend quality time with your kids. And I'm here to say that the most important thing we can do as fathers is to set aside a large quantity of time for our kids. That is what our kids need from us. Our kids need us to be present. It's in those moments when we are present and our kids feel safe and secure that quality moments happen. It's in those moments when we're just there, sitting there reading a book, but we are simply present, that they are comfortable coming to us and sharing with us the important things going on in their lives, their relationship issues that they're having, their friendships, their hopes, their dreams, their desires. We can't create a quality moment, but we can create a safe environment and be present as often as possible so that those quality moments can happen naturally.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:26]:
Well, Rob, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?

Rob Rohde [00:31:34]:
Yeah. The probably the best place to find out more about me is to check out my podcast, which is called The Business of Being Dad. And I release a new episode every Tuesday. You can find it on all the streaming platforms. And within the show description, there are links to my website, to my email, and also to a free resource called Thrive as a Single Dad that I would love to share with anyone who is interested.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:02]:
Well, Rob, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey and your continuing journey with your 5 daughters. And I truly wish you all the best.

Rob Rohde [00:32:12]:
Thank you so much. It's been an honor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:13]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step road maps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen Get out and be the world to them.

Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.
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Joe Bovell's Legacy of Love and Leadership in Parenting Daughters
17 juin· Dads With Daughters
In the realm of parenting, fathers play a pivotal role in shaping their children's lives, especially daughters. The journey of fatherhood is complex, filled with joys, challenges, and continuous learning experiences. In the Dads with Daughters podcast episode featuring Joe Bovell, a father of two, a profound discussion unfolded regarding the evolving dynamics of raising daughters. Let's delve into the insightful dialogue and extract key takeaways on navigating the path of fatherhood.

Embracing the Journey of Parenthood

Joe Bovell's narrative sheds light on the profound transformation that occurs when one becomes a father. The initial emotions of surprise and delight upon discovering the gender of his children set the stage for a journey filled with expectations, fears, and aspirations. Embracing fatherhood as a collaborative effort with his wife, Joe highlights the importance of being present and actively engaging in his children's lives from the moment they enter the world.

Navigating Fears and Challenges

As daughters transition through different stages of life, fathers like Joe Bovell acknowledge the evolving fears and challenges that come with the territory. From the desire to protect their daughters in their early years to confronting the societal pressures and influences as they grow older, the complexities of fatherhood magnify over time. Joe's exploration of the generational differences and the impact of social media on his daughter's growth provides a poignant reflection on the constant adaptation required in modern-day parenting.

Balancing Work, Life, and Parenting

An integral aspect of Joe's journey as a father is balancing his professional commitments with his role as a parent. As the CEO of Eco Growth International, Joe emphasizes the significance of quality over quantity when it comes to spending time with his family. Striving to be an engaged and supportive father amidst a busy schedule, Joe's approach reflects the ongoing quest for balance and prioritization in the realm of work-life integration.

Drawing Inspiration from Personal Challenges

Joe Bovell's upbringing in poverty and adversity serves as a foundation for his parenting philosophy. The resilience and work ethic instilled by his life experiences shape his perspectives on fatherhood and drive him to provide a safe and secure environment for his children. Joe's reflection on the absence of a father figure in his life underscores the profound impact of personal adversities in shaping one's values and aspirations as a parent.

Continuous Growth and Reflection

One of the most profound insights shared by Joe Bovell is the importance of continuous growth and reflection as a father. Acknowledging the feedback from his children, embracing the changing dynamics as they transition into adulthood, and navigating the fine line between guidance and autonomy, Joe exemplifies the essence of evolving as a parent. The journey of fatherhood is marked by learning on the job, adapting to new challenges, and striving to be the best version of oneself for the sake of one's children.

In essence, Joe Bovell's journey as a father provides a poignant narrative on the highs, lows, and intricate nuances of raising daughters. His reflections on fears, challenges, and the continuous strive for improvement paint a vivid picture of the multifaceted nature of fatherhood. As fathers navigate the complexities of parenting, Joe's insights serve as a guiding light, emphasizing the importance of presence, resilience, and a constant commitment to being the best dad one can be in shaping the lives of their daughters.

Joe Bovell was a part of Sarah Maconachie's book of stories about fathers called Working Dads and Balancing Acts.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you to be able to be on this journey with you. Because I know it is a journey. You know, I've got 2 daughters myself. I know you've got daughters, and you are going through this journey just like I am. You may have really young daughters, you could have teenage daughters, you could have grown and flown daughters, but we're all on a journey to help our daughters to be able to be those women, those strong, independent women that I already mentioned, but that we want them to be in life. And that's why the show exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]:
It exists because I want to help you along this path. I am not an expert, but it is important to be able to walk together in this journey, because we can always learn and grow and be better as fathers. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different dads, different people, people with resources, people with different experiences and and on different journeys that can help you to see your own journey of fatherhood in a little bit different way. And by hearing these experiences, my hope is that you're adding some tools to that toolbox that you're carrying with you. And that that will help you in the journey that you're on. This week, we've got another great guest with us today. Joe Bovell is with us today. And Joe is a father of 2.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]:
He's got a son. He's got a daughter. And we're gonna be talking about the journey that he has been on as a father himself. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him today. Joe, thanks so much for being here today.

Joe Bovell [00:02:07]:
Welcome, Chris. Thank you. I'm looking forward to this. Well, I'm

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]:
really excited to have you here today. And I always start the interviews with an opportunity to kinda go back in time. We're gonna turn the clock back a little bit. And I said, you have a son, you have a daughter, and we're gonna focus on your daughter today. But I want you to go back to that first moment that you found out that you were gonna be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Joe Bovell [00:02:27]:
Well, I found out as she was born. So it seems to be a bit against the norm now where a lot of people wanna know the sex of their child before well before they're born. We took the decision with both our children to not do that. So so that was a great surprise, and I'm glad we did that. So our son was born first as you touched on. So it was great when I found out I had a daughter because that was the pigeon pear. That was fantastic to have that moment where we said, okay. Let's let's work out.

Joe Bovell [00:02:53]:
You know, we're being blessed. We've had, a boy and a girl. We had a lot of difficulties through both pregnancies. My wife did, not me, of course. But and she had morning sickness for every single day of each pregnancy up until the day including the day they were born. So we were only ever gonna have 2 children. So the fact that Stephanie was born was, yeah, it was a great delight.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:13]:
Now, you know, I talked to a lot of dads, that have daughters, and a lot of the dads talk about that there is fear that goes along with raising daughters. Now, you had a son first, then you had your daughter. Talk to me about what was your biggest fear in raising a daughter?

Joe Bovell [00:03:29]:
I think those fears have evolved as she's gotten older. There's certainly the protective mood kicks in in those early years and and her development. But I'd say in the last 5 years, the pressures of social media, expectations of society to act and look in a particular way, that's certainly my greatest fears right now because I can see how it's influencing her how it influences her friend network, and how they communicate with each other is just so different. And I think one of my fears was the generational difference in how I grew up versus how she's growing up, and it is so different. And as a parent, you're trying to manage that sit a situation that you really have little control over. So I think the early stages because we had an established family and have a son first, there weren't as many fears. But I think now that she's interacting with the wider world, the fear has heightened, particularly in the last 5 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:25]:
So as you talk about the fear being heightened, what is that fear now?

Joe Bovell [00:04:29]:
It's quite significant, particularly because I think as she's getting older and developing and growing into being a woman, I can see the pressures, societal pressures coming on to her to look a certain way, to act a certain way, to like a certain musician, to be accepted in the group. And how her friends and schoolmates actually interact with each other, and how we can escalate so quickly. So if one person doesn't get invited to a party and that person finds out about it, it sets off this chain of events that really, as I say, escalates into something that gets out of control pretty quickly. And I can see the pressure bearing on her, and then that obviously affects me as a father because you have little to no control over it. And I think it's that I can see that building as she's getting older, and that might change or tap out when she gets to 18 or 19. But at the moment, as a 15 year old, to me, it appears to be at its highest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:22]:
Now there are definitely highs and lows to fatherhood and parenting. There are good times. There's challenging times. Talk to me about what's been the hardest part about being a father to a daughter?

Joe Bovell [00:05:35]:
It's a really good question because I think there's so many layers. But maybe my first reaction is, in a lot of ways, my daughter has a really close relationship with her mom, and I think that's that's vitally important and not as close to to me. So you have to reconcile that that she is gonna do some more things with her mom because the girl thinks, and they're gonna enjoy that exploration together. And maybe a lot of the interest I have don't sort of resonate with her. So I think it's accepting that you have a particular role to play in your daughter's life, and I might necessarily be the friend or the mate that say mom is. It's more the mentor and that type of role. So relationship shifting from that really close bond to we're still close, but it's not not as close as what it was perhaps 5 years ago. Because she's developing and emerging and and forming her own opinions on life.

Joe Bovell [00:06:25]:
Right? So I think that's probably the greatest challenge. There's others, of course, but I think that's probably the greatest for me personally as a dad and how I manage that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:33]:
I know you're a busy guy. You are the CEO and Managing Director at Eco Growth International. And that alone is a very busy job. And then you have your family, you have your other responsibilities, you're balancing a lot of different things, wearing a lot of hats. So talk to me about balance and what you do to be able to be that engaged dad that you wanna be.

Joe Bovell [00:06:55]:
Yeah. I think it's about making the most of the time that you have together and having quality rather than quantity. And, look, they've grown up. Steph's grown up with me in this role, you know, half her life. So she's accustomed to me traveling or doing longer working hours or whatever that might be. So that's the norm. I mean, it's pretty normal now when I can go on a trip and she comments and perhaps did I even go away. So and that's not that she didn't miss me, but she's just so used to me not being there.

Joe Bovell [00:07:23]:
And I think and that's like, I spoke on her in your earlier question about the bond with her mom is closer because she spends more time with her. So it's a really difficult balance, and I I do I wouldn't say I have an issue with it, but I would challenge the notion of work life balance. I don't I don't think there is. Trying to get that balance, I think, is incredibly difficult. And if you can do that, then I'll take my hat off to you. But I've always gone with the moments that really matter, I want to be there. So be that a school assembly or an award or a presentation or a sporting event, to me, that's vital that I'm there, and work absolutely comes second in those occasions. Work is not everything.

Joe Bovell [00:08:04]:
So that's where I try and make that balanced choice. It's go okay. It I don't know. It sounds like prioritization, but it's actually saying what are the moments that really matter and and being engaged in those moments as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:21]:
Now you and I were connected through Sarah McConachie, who you wrote a piece of her new book in working dads and balancing acts. And in that book, you you talk about the fact that your childhood wasn't the easiest. You had a single mom, you you grew up in poverty and adversity. And that helped as you write in your in your, piece, that it really shaped a sense of resilience in you and a work ethic that remains with you today. And in that you talk about the absence of a father figure in your life. So talk to me a little bit about that absence, and how you push through that when you became a father, to be able to define fatherhood for yourself and to be the father that you wanted to be?

Joe Bovell [00:09:19]:
That was certainly my greatest fear, when we found out my wife was pregnant, was what kind of father would I be? Because I had no I had no benchmark. So I I never met my father at all, so there was no relationship whatsoever. I didn't have any male mentors in my life growing up either. Obviously, I was very close to my mother. But I didn't have that I didn't have anything shaping me in terms of being a father. So when my, son was born, I hadn't even held a baby. And when I had friends who had babies, I'd always avoided it because I always felt I was gonna break them if I held them. But, but now yeah.

Joe Bovell [00:10:09]:
So moving through that journey, I think you you come back to your own principles of doing what you feel is right. You know that you're gonna make mistakes. I've made I think I've made a lot of mistakes, in my in being a father. And would that have been different if I'd had a father figure in my life growing up? I'm not sure. I always took the position that I was fortunate in not having a father. And the reason I say that because, you know, how many children have, you know, parents who go through divorce or they have a a household that's not safe? And so just because you have a father doesn't necessarily mean it's great. So that was my one of my coping mechanisms, I guess. So I don't know how I became a father.

Joe Bovell [00:11:02]:
I just it just it was a lot by accident, and I learned on the job. And I think what what I touched on in the chapter was that I just felt that what I've gone through in my life, I did not want to have that repeated. So that was my guiding light in being a father. And like I said, I'm not perfect, and I do certainly things I do differently. But I think, overall, that was the the guide for me to be the father that I am.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:38]:
Now I mentioned the fact that in what you wrote, you also talked about growing up in poverty and adversity. How did that shape your perspectives on life and on fatherhood?

Joe Bovell [00:11:53]:
On the on the life front, it it it shaped pretty quickly that if you wanted something, you had to go and, work for it. You had to you had to earn it. There was no nothing was gifted, and that you had the choice. So you came to a fork in the road that you could go the right way or the wrong way, or you could choose to stay in poverty, you could choose to be uneducated or not be a nice person, or you can actually choose to be the other way. So go the other way. So and we spoke earlier. My career path and life path hasn't certainly been linear, but it's always been guided by a drive that you can't implant into many people, and my kids don't have it. And I think that's really interesting because I've tried to help build resilience with them.

Joe Bovell [00:12:43]:
So it's difficult if you don't suffer adversity to build resilience. They sort of go hand in hand. So that's only shaped everything, and I started work part time when I was 10 years old, which seems pretty foreign there. Back in the early eighties, that wasn't so uncommon. But we because we had no money or, opportunity and you had friends who were doing things that you couldn't do because you couldn't afford them, you didn't have a choice. Do we go and sell newspapers and be able to be part of that or not? And I haven't been out of work since. So and it probably annoys my kids because in some ways, I have an imposter syndrome. Well, I think I do have an imposter syndrome, not in some ways.

Joe Bovell [00:13:20]:
And there's a fear of losing what you have, and I'm not sure that'll ever leave me. So I could be a multimillionaire, and I still might feel that it could all be taken away from me tomorrow. So that's good and bad. That certainly goes a great driver, but what it can affect is your ability to enjoy the moment. And I think that's been probably the feedback from my daughter particularly that I'm not enjoying the moment. I'm always thinking a couple of years ahead or I'm thinking about protecting what we have and not enjoying it as much as what we can. As I get older, starting to, loosen up on that a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:56]:
Now you mentioned the fact that as you were growing up, you didn't have a father figure. There were no father figures in your life. You were close to your mother, but you had that lack of a father figure. And as you walked into fatherhood, as you mentioned, hadn't held the baby, you thought you were gonna break the baby. You know, you had a lot to learn and that you kind of figured out what being a father was. Who or what did you turn to to be able to model after without having that father figure in your life to be that father that you wanted to be?

Joe Bovell [00:14:29]:
I have to say it's my wife. So we had the same commitment to raising a family in a particular way, so we're on the same page. So even at that point, I still didn't have a male mentor. And as you well know, men aren't particularly good at talking to each other or being open in their communication. So dads don't sit around in father's groups like moms do in mother's groups and share their experiences and share helpful advice. Dads almost said it's a badge of honor to not ask for advice, which is not necessarily a good thing. Back in my generation, at least, I think it's improving, and I think there's more content education available to young fathers. So I've had to say my wife because we had a a firm commitment to raising our children in a certain way, and that was the way we wanted to do it.

Joe Bovell [00:15:15]:
So no. I didn't actually still at that point have a male influence on my life other than what I read or digested online.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:23]:
Now you mentioned that in what you wrote that one of the things that you really wanted to do was provide a safe and secure upbringing for your kids, free from the struggles that you faced. So talk to me about how you balanced protecting them while also allowing them to learn and grow from the challenges that they would face as they grew up.

Joe Bovell [00:15:45]:
The provision of the safe family unit again, I've gotta give my wife credit for that as well. I I can't claim all of that. I think a lot of that happened in the background and that they weren't necessarily aware of that, and perhaps they got given too much. That's probably one of the other struggles I have. And that is there an overcorrection in providing far too much when, say, you missed out on it and then you wanna make up for that to some degree. So which again is good and bad. It's great to have to been able to have done that for them, but there's also comes an expectation and entitlement, which I don't think is fabulous for helping them in that sense. So and my wife has always spoken about that.

Joe Bovell [00:16:22]:
We probably should've peeled that back a little bit. So we achieved what we wanted to do in providing that safe family home, but did we overcorrect and not build resilience and build in a modicum of entitlement and that things might come a little bit too easy. And that's the really difficult part. I think that's been the hardest part for me in parenting. It's been that balancing between giving enough or too much or not enough. And I think sometimes you don't know that till you get to the end, until they get to 18 or 20. You might get little hints along the way, but you might not actually see, say, a sense of entitlement or lack of resilience until they're 16. And is that too late?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:01]:
Now all of us are not perfect, and we have to learn and grow and become better as we move through fatherhood. What would you say have been some of the strategies that you employed to continuously improve as a dad? And how do you handle setbacks or moments when you feel like you've fallen short?

Joe Bovell [00:17:21]:
I think the feedback from the kids is probably the greatest tool, which is an interesting one because as they're developing and forming their own opinions and and they become more vocal in that, you're realizing what your impact has been as a parent. Doesn't mean they're always right though, I gotta say, because their opinions and learnings are based on what they know at that point in time, and they might not be privy to the background information. So I remember reading somewhere or heard somewhere not that long ago that someone said that, you know, how to become a great parent of an 18 year old. And they said, well, I'm not bad, but I don't know how to be the parent of a 19 year old. Because it was the first time they had evolved. And I think that's the learning on the job that I've mentioned earlier that being a dad to a 6 year old is so different to a 15 year old. As we know, it is just radically different. You go from helping them grow and be a a person.

Joe Bovell [00:18:12]:
They can start to look after themselves and and teach them the basics of life and to then someone who's then forming really strong opinions on the world and they're forming their own character. And there's inevitable clashes with that, clashes in our deals and philosophies. That's been a challenge. So I think the thing I've learned is that you go from protector and teacher, you need to then become more of a listener than a doer and be more there if they need you rather than being there a 100% of the time. And that's taking me a fair bit of brain power to wrap my head around that because, again, that's probably the biggest challenges of being dead, Particularly for me was you go from the protected provider to actually, we don't need you to do that anymore, dad. Actually, why don't you back off a bit? Because you're actually you've been a security guard all this time. We don't need that. We're finding our own way in the world.

Joe Bovell [00:19:02]:
We need you to be there if we need you. So you can feel a bit redundant, but I'll look at that too and say, yeah. But that's part of our job, isn't it? That we're preparing our children for adulthood. And if they should, in some ways, be disconnecting from us, cutting the umbilical cord to a degree, but hope that they come back when they need to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:20]:
Now you've kind of talked about this in trying to raise your kids to be prepared for the future. And I know in what you wrote, you talked about wanting your kids to be successful, happy, well balanced. How do you instill those values and aspirations in them while also allowing them to pursue their own paths?

Joe Bovell [00:19:39]:
Actions speak louder than words, and I think you need to demonstrate that consistently that you have those values as a person, that you can work and have all these other interests, but you can still dedicate time to your family and be there for when you need them. But balancing that against, and which I touched on earlier, I think that's been the challenge for me. You go, jeez. I'd love it if you guys turned out this way, but the reality is you can maybe try and influence it a little bit, but they're gonna form their own values and opinions and style. So I think the only really way you do that is the little building blocks you put on since they were born and that this is the way we do things around here. So people talk about workplace culture, and there's a home culture as well, where you say, well, this is how we do things, and this is what we stand for, and and hope that the kids can and that's not always right. So that's this is where the challenge comes now that you might believe it's the right way to do something, but maybe it's not. And they have influences outside the household now that, are quite strong.

Joe Bovell [00:20:37]:
The school system is I I think, they dedicate a lot of time now to the values and how they wanna be as people when they get to the end of the school journey. So that's certainly that and then their peer group. So I think you can lay the foundation stones and hope that that is the platform that they need, and then they'll top up and put their own icing on the cake.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:56]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve be, Chris. In one word, what is fatherhood?

Joe Bovell [00:21:03]:
Satisfying. When was

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:09]:
the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Joe Bovell [00:21:13]:
When I saw her become really independent, form strong opinions on a particular issue, and be eloquent in that, and be cognizant of the audience that she was around. And you think, okay, yeah, she's turning into a remarkable woman.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:29]:
Now if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Joe Bovell [00:21:33]:
Probably a pain in the ass, I'd suggest, to be honest. I'm pretty motivated and driven, and I struggle with the concept that they might still be in bed at 11 o'clock in the morning. So but I would hope that they would see that I'm committed and motivated and always try and do the right thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:48]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Joe Bovell [00:21:50]:
My kids do. Because we've touched on a journey. You know that there was no manual when we got the child, and it's an interesting journey because we did the prenatal classes, and there's all this attention on the child on the birth. But you know what? There was no education when you got the baby home. So we got home and said, jeez, what do we do now? So that was a real wake up call. So there's no manual. You're learning on the job, and you know you never nail it. So the inspiration is to keep getting better at what you do along their journey.

Joe Bovell [00:22:20]:
And the challenge also is that is evolving as they grow into adults. So they're the 2 people who shaped me the most.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:27]:
Now you've shared a lot about your own journey. You've shared some of the highs, the lows, you've shared thoughts and perspectives and and some ideas as well. As we're finishing up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Joe Bovell [00:22:40]:
I think make the most of every moment. It is incredibly fast that journey from birth to your child being 18. People talk about it, but when you live it, not a day goes past when I don't remember their birth and what that was at that time and the impact it had on us and me individually. And I cannot believe how fast that journey goes. And my advice would be take the time to go to the school assembly, to have the moments with them alone in a park, and go for those walks and have those conversation, to know that it might be the last time you ever get that chance to spend with them. I'm not trying to sound morbid, but you'll never get that time back. And those cutest things when they're at their, school assemblies and they're doing their plays and they're cast as a tree and you've helped paint their costume and that goes so quickly. And then you you're dealing with a 16 year old daughter who's more interested in the friends and and Ariana Grande and all these other influences that those conversations and moments with dad, they will never be the same.

Joe Bovell [00:23:40]:
They won't probably be as much as what you had when they were much younger. So cherish every moment that you can because, a, go so quickly, and, b, as they grow into adults, they generally wanna spend less time with you. So make the most of the time that you have because it is gold. That's my advice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:57]:
Well, Joey, just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey today. If people wanna find out more about you, is there a good place for them to go?

Joe Bovell [00:24:04]:
I'm I'm not a social media king, but I'm sure you can probably find me online. LinkedIn's probably a a good option for me or Facebook. I'd love to hear from people all around the world. That'd be fantastic. And that was my reasoning for doing this was it was slightly cathartic because I did get down in some deep dark places in my chapters. But it's about can I if I can help one person or give just the smallest piece of advice that helps someone, one dad, then my job is done, and I'm really happy with that?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:32]:
And we've mentioned the book already, but Sarah McConachie has a book that has a number of dads in it. You've heard from a number of the dads already. And Joe is one of the authors from that book, And I encourage you to go and check it out. You can go to workhardparenthard.com.au to find out more and be able to get some more information on the book and read more about Joe's story, as well as many other dad stories that are working to be the best dads that they can be, but also to provide a gender equitable home that allow for that equal role of parents and the work within the home. And that's an important discussion to have and important things to read and to learn about. So, Joe, thank you so much again for being here, and I wish you all the best. If you've enjoyed today's of the dads with daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:38]:
We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly dads like you. So check it out atfatheringtogether.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week. All geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your AK. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world.

Choose them. Be the best dad you can be. You're the best dad you can be.
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Doug Veal's Transition: Redefining Roles from Detective to Devoted Dad
10 juin· Dads With Daughters
This week on the Dads with Daughters Podcast, we welcome Doug Veal, a devoted father and past Police Detective. In this episode we dive deep into learning more about Doug's journey and what he had to do to be the dad that he knew that he wanted to be.

The Pivot to Parenthood

When Doug Veal discovered he would become a father, the ensuing excitement was matched by an awareness of his wife's heart condition. The joy of fatherhood came with a responsibility to pivot his focus from being a police officer to providing for his family during their medical journey. Veal's decision to take parental leave, an unusual step in law enforcement culture, underscored the emerging shift in parental roles and the importance of being present during critical family moments. Taking leave amid the challenges of a demanding career, Veal showed that fatherhood demanded flexibility, courage, and an unabashed willingness to break from tradition.

Shaping a Legacy

Doug Veal's discernment in prioritizing family well-being over career progression serves as a testament to the evolving nature of fatherhood. Inspired by his belief in being a balanced role model and the potential of his children's future, Veal's journey from the force to becoming a stay-at-home dad exemplifies the sacrifice and adaptability required in modern parenting. He advises fathers to be patient and considerate in their interactions with challenges, knowing that these qualities shape their legacy far beyond tangible achievements.

The Power of Community and Support

Acknowledging the pressures and complexities associated with his transition, Veal harnessed the support of employee assistance programs and peer support groups to navigate stressful periods. His experiences highlight the crucial role of community in providing different perspectives and shared experiences. Belonging to a network of fathers allows for a collective wisdom that individual experience alone cannot replicate, providing grounding and solidarity in the adventure of fatherhood.

Maximizing Family

Time In today's world where work encroaches on personal life, Veal emphasizes the importance of boundary setting. Whether it's outdoor adventures or being present from morning till school time, he urges fathers to maximize quality interactions with their children. Veal's proactive approach to fatherhood—choosing meaningful experiences over work commitments—serves as a powerful reminder to dads about the essence of being present and cherishing fleeting moments.

Reflecting on Being a Dad

In the 'fatherhood 5' segment, Veal refers to fatherhood as an adventure while sharing fond memories like his son's merit for respect. His vision for the future is to be seen as fun, involved, and particularly, available. This segment cements the notion that fatherhood is an evolving journey marked by pivotal moments that shape not only the life of the child but also the personal growth of the father.

You can learn more about Doug's journey as a father in the new book by Sarah Maconachie, Working Dads and Balancing Acts.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to walk with you on this journey that you're on. And to be honest, you and I are on this same journey together because I've got 2 daughters, you've got daughters, and it's always important to be able to learn from each other and be willing to learn from each other, but also to learn from others to help us to be the dads that we wanna be. And we do that every week by having some great conversations to delve deeper into what it means to be a dad, but also we get to learn from other dads in the journeys that they've been on to be able to help them to be the dads that they've become. And this week we've got another great guest on the show. You might remember that we had a one of our past guests, Sarah McConachie, was on the show just recently talking about her new book that is out called Work Hard, Parent Hard. And she's got books for dads and moms.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]:
And we talked about her book for dads. And from talking to her, I got an opportunity to be able to get connected with some of the dads that she connected with in her book. And today we've got one of those dads with us. Doug Veal is with us, and he's a father of 2 sons. And he's going to talk a little bit about some of his own journey, not only with his 2 sons, some of the journey that he went on to go from working. And I'm not going to share too much yet because we're going to be talking about what he did, but working in the police force to becoming a stay at home dad and working with his dad, taking advantage of time to be there for his kids and and really delving a little bit deeper on that. So I'm really excited to have him on. Doug, thanks so much for being here today.

Doug Veal [00:02:06]:
Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]:
I'm excited to have you here as well. And first and foremost, I love being able to turn the clock back in time. So I wanna go back a couple of years, and I wanna turn the clock back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father. What was going through your head?

Doug Veal [00:02:24]:
I've always wanted to be a dad. I was really, really keen, but I wanted to make sure that we were set up in the best position we could be. And that said, we weren't really planning to have kids as early as we did, and I think it was about 6 months after we got married, to be honest. And it was, yeah, just absolute excitement, and then just that moment of going, oh, okay. Now the things are getting serious. Now we need to plan. So it's a pivotal moment, and it was a case of, alright. How do we well, what do we go from here? So I knew that the impact that it was gonna have on my wife and I was gonna be slightly more complicated than just, that overwhelming joy and excitement because my wife had a heart condition, so we needed to look at how that was gonna impact her health and, what that would mean.

Doug Veal [00:03:12]:
I think it's the common thing would be, yeah, we had a lot of excitement and a lot of nervousness to go, okay, what happens next? And how do we bring that into our lives?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:20]:
Now you just brought up, one of the things that I I know that you dealt with very early on and not only through the pregnancy, but into the birth of your first child, which was that your wife did have some health challenges. She had a heart condition and had to have some significant heart surgery after the birth of your first child. So as a part of that, I know that you had to do some pivoting. You had been working as a police officer for many years, doing work with your government as well. Just very involved in the work that you had done in your career. Talk to me about first and foremost, so at the birth of your child and the health issues of your wife, I know that you had to take a more supportive role during your wife's health challenges. And how did that impact your approach to parenting and work life balance?

Doug Veal [00:04:10]:
On the lead up, so when Edison was born, he's my my first son. And when he was born, I knew that I'll be taking the time off. I knew that my work was especially replacing the benefits that I had access to allowed me to take that time off, and I took 3 months off. There were some interesting conversations with some detective senior sergeants. At the time, I was working as a detective investigator doing money laundering investigations at state crime level and then moved into corruption invest in a corruption task force. And the discussions initially to take that time off were quite challenging. I was talking to a quite seasoned and, I'd say, old school detective who hadn't really understood the support mechanisms that we like to try and enjoy at the moment. And I'm I'm really glad that we do have access to things such as parental leave.

Doug Veal [00:05:02]:
And I'm really glad that we've got access to things like parental leave, and we've got those supports and that the decision making for those to access that leave isn't to your immediate supervisor or to your district. It goes beyond that. It's on a more of a government level because being under that umbrella of a government employee. I think it was access or the pivot. So when Edison came along, I was going to be playing a a large role. I took took that time. It was time that I knew that I would like, but it was also time knowing that my wife had a caesarean section. There was some further support that was needed.

Doug Veal [00:05:41]:
So I really cherish that the month after Edison was born, being able to offer that support to be able to get that really good contact and to get to know my son and actually will rewind a little bit immediately after he was born. Well, the birth itself was quite an interesting birth. I think we had 27 people in the room for a cesarean section, which was quite a dramatic affair. So we had the normal surgery team. We had NICU people because Edison was slightly premature because there was some complications, and then we had a full cardio surgery team on standby to have given a 30% chance that my wife would have a cardiac event immediately following the delivery. So Edison was born, cried, and it was the best thing I'd ever heard, followed by the most scared I've ever been because now came the danger period. So after delivery, Edison went to the NICU and my wife, Nicola, went to the ICU. And I was in an interesting position I hadn't really planned for because do I walk one way or do I go the other way? Do I go to where my wife was or do I go to where my new child was? And I'm not gonna say we're trying no.

Doug Veal [00:06:55]:
I went I went, to where my son was and making sure that I could jog between the 2 because they were all housed in the same hospital. So that really cemented to me that I needed to take that time to make sure that us as a family unit, we're gonna be having the healing that we needed to be able to get through the next stages. So after 3 months, I did go back to work. And then knowing that after a few months, Nicola would need to have that heart surgery. So I ended up having open heart surgery. Again, that put me in a position of having an extended period of leave. And then almost it was 6 months to the day after the heart surgery, we fell pregnant with our second son, Terrence. That's quite funny.

Doug Veal [00:07:38]:
I can pinpoint the exact moment. One of them we found out and second of when the dirty deed happened because I was in between army training blocks, and I only came home for a weekend, which is quite an interesting little time peg, to be honest. But it's been quite the journey on the health front and the children front. But as far as making the decision or my decision to to leave placing, there was a few things that had occurred throughout the first pregnancy that I was slightly uncomfortable with as far as decision making and my ability to be able to invest what I normally do, which would be about 60 to 80 hour week because there's exactly what we're doing now. Part of the investigations were overseas. It was a case of you can't let off on the tempo when you're fully involved in an investigation. I wasn't in a position that I wanted to continue doing that. It was a choice that I made to take a step back.

Doug Veal [00:08:36]:
It's not something that I could've continued down that path in my current career choice. So I'm just saying I'd have to take my foot off the gas on the detective front. My transition to back to uniform. I was promoted after my leave, which was quite good. It was saying that was quite important to me knowing that I could access those entitlements and then that not having a lasting impact on my career after being warned by my detective senior sergeant that it would have an impact. It was quite good that it wasn't the case. However, a 3 panel roster is unforgiving for anyone else out in the law enforcement community and just shift work generally. Knowing that I did have weeks when my boys were quite young not seeing them, because we would have a, you know, starting a shift at 4 PM and then coming home at 2 o'clock to sleep until 10.

Doug Veal [00:09:28]:
It's not really a family friendly roster. So there was too much impetus on my career at the time, and that needed to change.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:36]:
I appreciate you sharing that. Now, one of the things you just talked about was the fact that, you know, as a police officer, there's a culture, there's a expectation in regards to the work that you're required to do and probably some old school mentality versus new school mentality as it comes to thinking about parenting and being present in your kids' lives. You've mentioned the fact that you took some extended parental leave as you were a police officer, and that might not have been the norm at the time in regards to what you were doing. What motivated you to prioritize family time and to set your career on the back seat for yourself as you were focusing and putting the effort on your family versus the career at the time?

Doug Veal [00:10:28]:
Yeah. And I think this gets to the heart of the issue of of that balance. I've always had quite strong role models. So I looked at how my father was and the parts that I wanted to emulate and then the parts that I didn't wanna emulate, knowing that he's human like everyone. There's there's part, and he was a different situation. But looking at how I could shape my situation and knowing I had access to those lives, but also knowing that I get to shape the reality for my children. Parents have such a large influence about especially early on in what you can expose your kids to, how you can show value, how you can demonstrate those or model behaviors. That you know that your 2 year old, your 3 year old, your 5 year old's gonna emulate.

Doug Veal [00:11:14]:
So really wanting to set that strong role model and give them a balanced perspective. It's not about just being a champion or being an ideal or just a figure. So I look at who I've looked up to and which leaders and things that I've gone, oh, I wanna be like that person, and then started to really look down and go, well, I like them for 1 attribute or 2 attributes or a behavior, not across a set of behaviors. So I really knew that I needed to balance out and not just be one one figure. So and I think a turning point came to me, and it was an interesting one. I think it hit quite hard. So I got my army photos, and I've got my policing photos, and some parts where I've been at training, and some parts where I've done some other tactical training. And boys being boys, fascinated with guns.

Doug Veal [00:12:08]:
And then I had my 3 year old come up to me and ask me, basically, oh, so you're a policeman. You shoot people. And I was like, oh, this is a very difficult conversation, knowing that it's a touchy subject. And I'm not gonna go too much into that subject in this podcast. However, it was something that made me reflect and go, I need to really broaden the exposure or or how I present and to set that example for my children.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]:
Now I know that in what you wrote in Sarah's book, you talked about the importance for you to access support through that journey for yourself being away from work, but also being present at home. Can you talk to me about the support services that you did take advantage of? I know you talked in your writing about employment assistant programs. How did seeking professional help contribute to your well-being during those stressful times that you were having, whether it be at work or at home?

Doug Veal [00:13:09]:
I've used the employee assistance program a number of times, and when I was able to engage it during the stress that we felt over the, pregnancy and through early childhood, it was a a huge benefit. It's like that I was able to go with Nicola and talk through some of the issues and talk through some of the difficulties that we're facing and trying to really put it in perspective. So looking at larger health concerns, we had a period where we bounced from crisis to crisis and where we actually struggled wasn't in the crisis times. It was in the periods of slightly less crisis because the priorities weren't quite as clear, yet there was still an enormous amount of things to be done. So accessing that support was really helpful in setting those priorities, talking through some things, and then getting beyond the immediate with some of the future planning. Another really good support that we've got, and I'm not sure if it's as prevalent in the US as it is in Australia. We've got dads groups, which are normally a Facebook group and you meet up at a park and it really grounds the fatherhood experience. You look at it and you go, oh, and it takes the edge off of what, yeah, the larger issues because you find out that there's 15, 20 different ways to deal with the same thing.

Doug Veal [00:14:28]:
For an example, Edison had clubfoot when he was born, and that was such an interesting experience, especially when I was I was taking that time off from work. I'll be taking Edison around the shops, And I'll get people stuff and go, oh, such a good dad and things of that nature. And he was on in a cast and things at that time, which was an interesting experience. And then I'll go out with my wife, and we'll get it just wasn't the same experience for her. It was always questions about how he broke his leg. And it's like, he hasn't broken his leg. So it was concerns about parenting so much more with my wife. And when I was out there, it was a conversation piece.

Doug Veal [00:15:09]:
So there was nothing but praise, which I found quite odd. Not saying take advantage and have some interesting conversations and enjoy it, but there was a big difference in the way that even saying it as small as going to the shops, the impact that that had. So talking through parts of that. And also I ended up joining a mother's group because I was the primary carer when Edison came. And I was sharing some experiences because my family had fostered for a large period of time. So I've always had kids in the house and quite young kids, which set me up a little bit, quite well for dealing with my kids. However, it's a completely different experience. I think we ended up in the mid nineties as far as the children that came for short stay through our house.

Doug Veal [00:15:56]:
So we had a range of different children with different backgrounds and experiences that we've worked through. So, yeah, quite interest. So back to the mother's group. So we were talking and we're sharing some experiences, and I could see that there were some people in the group that were getting quite fatigued and their resilience was quite down. And that was one of the huge benefits that we had with both of us being off work at the time or both of us being able to take some time off is that we could really get into some shift work and that wasn't a stranger for me. So I didn't mind doing some night shifts every so often. So going through the mother's grief and just trying to bring a bit of a calming influence of, yes, it will pass. There's a limited amount of things that the baby's going to be crying for and trying to bring something that I understand to be really quite an emotional experience down to, okay, hungry, wind, wet nappy.

Doug Veal [00:16:49]:
Like there's normally a finite amount of things that can be checked and monitored so we can, yeah, hopefully stop the crying for a bit and give you that 4 hour window of a little bit of sleep. It all changes after the second one, which I'm sure that your listeners are aware. Sleep when the baby sleeps is really good advice until you got 2, and then it's when it's just a challenge.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:11]:
Yeah. Especially in those early years, you definitely go through that zombie period where you don't know what ends up and you're going on so little sleep. And and when I talk to people that are like, oh, my kids slept all the time. And I'm like, oh, I wish that I would had been the case. Because that's not always the case.

Doug Veal [00:17:27]:
No. No. It's not. And, yeah, some people, they need to know it's normal and it does end. It does end. But, yes, I remember there was a period, I think it was about the 4 month mark with Terrence, my second son. Well, I didn't want to go to bed. I knew that as soon as I go to bed, it's just going to be interrupted.

Doug Veal [00:17:45]:
I'd rather push through. And it was really challenging for about a month or 2 months. That period of sleep progression that was unfortunately teed up with, I think, with potty training with Edison. So there was just a lot of things going on, a lot of washing and not much sleep.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:01]:
Now I know one of the things that you and especially regarding family time. For you, how do you ensure that your work commitments don't encroach upon those boundaries?

Doug Veal [00:18:20]:
Well, I'm lucky enough at the moment. So I'm currently an assistant director working for a federal agency. So most of the people who I supervise so the eastern states shut down. They're 3 hours ahead. So I've got a great flexibility in how I set my work schedule up, which is really quite handy. But with my boundaries, I really look to how I can maximize my interaction time with with my kids. So after work is kids' time. So you'll rarely find me on the phone after 5 o'clock my time.

Doug Veal [00:18:53]:
If the sun's out, we're going to the park. If it's good weather, we're outside. If it's not great weather, we've got a I don't know how many of your listeners are gonna be Bluey fans, but we've got that big green shed hammer barn, which is called Bunnings. They've actually got a playground in them. So we'll go to Bunnings for a bit. So school time, family time. Weekends, it's gonna be fishing, camping, going on adventures, taking the 4 wheel drive out. And I don't expect sleep ins, to be quite brutally honest.

Doug Veal [00:19:23]:
So it's a thing of the past. I was half when I wrote my chapter, I was happy with 1 every week, but like I'm just gonna say, if I'm not watching the sunrise or if I'm in bed after 6, then there's probably something wrong. No. It's good. I've got 2 young boys who are eager to start the day, and I'm eager to start it with them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:42]:
That's amazing. Now I know that one of the things that you wrote about too, and some of this goes back down to what you said earlier that you were working 60 to 80 hours a week. Your job was taking you to many different places. But I know travel also seemed to be a recurring theme in your life. How would you say that your global experiences influence your parenting approach and your child's upbringing?

Doug Veal [00:20:08]:
I've really enjoyed traveling. I've been lucky enough to get out and about. I've done 6 out of the 7 continents for a month or more. COVID kind of put a really quite a big dampener on international travel. So when the restrictions ended, I jumped at the opportunity to take my boys and go to London to visit their uncle or my brother. So we went off to London. So there's a direct flight from Perth to London. It's a 17 hour flight, and I think I'm just gonna rename that the challenge.

Doug Veal [00:20:43]:
I think it was the better of 2 evils to be quite fair. I don't think a 8 hour flight and then a stopover and then another 10 hour flight or 12 hour flight would have really been any easier. But I'm set on giving my kids a series of experiences that's gonna round them out quite well. There's 7,000,000,000 people in the world. No one's got it completely right. We can learn by, well, one, getting out into our neighborhood, but then going beyond our neighborhood and looking for those different experiences and meeting different people. Yeah. London was a really interesting experience.

Doug Veal [00:21:16]:
They're not set up for Australian sized prams over in the UK. So, yeah, the footpaths aren't pram friendly. So my wife joined me for the first couple of weeks and then took a nice relaxing flight home. I soloed outed over in, yeah, a very, very busy city for a few weeks after that and tried to really give them the experience. I think it was more for me. I'm satisfied that it's more for me going to museums and galleries, but some really good photos. And even when they've had enough, I'll take a photo. I've got a really, really good one of Terrence in front of Van Gogh's Sunflowers where he's decided that he doesn't wanna play anymore at the National Gallery in London.

Doug Veal [00:22:00]:
And, yeah, it takes a while to get out of those places. And especially when the the more quiet it is, I don't know, they seem to hide the exits. We did the same in the National Library trying to get our escape route. But then slowly after we got some good experiences, we hit the parks. We hit the parks pretty hard. The boys love slides. So, yeah, from everywhere, from Axbridge to London Bridge, I think we've done every single one of those packs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:26]:
Very fun. Now, I guess, as we finish up today, what advice would you give to fathers who are similarly navigating the complexities of career advancement while at the same time trying to strive to be that actively engaged dad that they wanna be.

Doug Veal [00:22:46]:
Well, I know that I'm no expert have what you would like to do and the impact that that's gonna have. You get one run at it, so I would choose the things that last. So and that's one of the reasons that I've, in my balance, I'm probably tilted slightly more to the family side. I love my career. I'm quite particular in the steps that I take. However, I know that I'm a dad first, and that's really quite a large change. Having always been a police officer. I've been that for over a decade, having that as a large personality, trait to making that shift, especially when my kids came along.

Doug Veal [00:23:32]:
Life's full of choices. Some have much larger impacts and impacts that you're not aware of. And that's forefront in my mind when I'm looking at how I'm raising kids. But it's one of those thing that it's a privilege. It's at times overwhelming, but it's an adventure. So there's gonna be some great bits, some funny bits, some sad bits, scary bits, but some brilliant moments. So lean into it and enjoy the ride.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:02]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready? Yep. In one word, what is fatherhood?

Doug Veal [00:24:11]:
Adventure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:12]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father?

Doug Veal [00:24:16]:
That would have been about oh, it was last week. Edison fur oh, so he's going to school, 1st year in school, and he got a merit certificate in the 1st assembly for respect. So I was, yeah, a real proud dad moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:33]:
Now I know your kids are young right now, but if I was to talk to them, how would they describe you as a dad?

Doug Veal [00:24:40]:
Depends on what we were doing immediately before. I think Edison would describe me as fun, and he would describe me as always wanting to give it a go. There's not too many projects that we haven't tried. We definitely take on some projects and give it a red hot crack. So, yeah, I'm gonna stick with give it a go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:01]:
And as you think 10 years down the road, what do you want them to say then?

Doug Veal [00:25:05]:
Available. If it was one word, they'd be available. Looked at different ways and behaviors that I'm gonna try or that I've brought in and values that I have about getting involved in community and service, and that's not military service. It's community service. So one of the ways I'm doing it at the moment is as a volunteer firefighter. Yeah. I find that I want to be able to impart those things. However, the one thing that I would like to resonate with them is availability.

Doug Veal [00:25:34]:
If they need me, I'm gonna be there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:37]:
Who inspires you to be a better dad?

Doug Veal [00:25:38]:
The cliche is my dad. So to a large part, it's that, but they do. So it's the dichotomy. It's they do because they are an absolute ball of potential, and their future future is not written. And it's my job to be able to assist, shape that. I can't control it. I can't do it all, But I'm gonna give it a really red hot crack in making sure that we get the best results we can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:05]:
And as we and finally, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every dad?

Doug Veal [00:26:11]:
Patient. You shouldn't be able to be wound up by your 3 year old or 5 year old or probably even your 10 year old. You're gonna get wound up by your 16 year old, but but I think that's a slightly different different area. But, yeah, patience. The problem isn't the problem. It's how we interact with the problem.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:29]:
Well, Doug, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. If people wanna read more about you in Sarah's book or find more about you, where should they go?

Doug Veal [00:26:40]:
Yeah. So I can go to workhardparenthard.com.au. You can find the books there. We've touched on some really cool things in this, but there's a fair few more things that we can you can read about. And there's, yeah, tons more people adding their experience to it. So, yeah, it's it's quite an exciting venture.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:59]:
Well, Doug, thank you for being here, and I appreciate you sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best.

Doug Veal [00:27:06]:
Excellent. Thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:07]:
If you've enjoyed today's episode of the Dads with Daughters podcast, we invite you to check out the fatherhood insider. The insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the Dads with Daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with Daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:05]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, we give the lessons, We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast. Calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world to them. Dad you can be.
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Recognizing Dads' Role in Raising Daughters: Building Bonds and Nurturing Independence With Sarah Maconachie
3 juin· Dads With Daughters
Fatherhood and Active Participation

In this week's Dads with Daughters podcast we got to speak with Sarah Maconachie, a mindset coach and author, the focus was on the importance of active fatherhood in raising empowered daughters. In our conversation, Sarah emphasized the need for dads to be actively involved in their daughters' lives and the significance of being present, supportive, and open in their journey towards raising independent and strong women. Sarah shared her experiences and insights from her own upbringing and her work in advocating for equal parenting roles. Her perspectives shed light on the transformative power of involved fatherhood and the impact it can have on daughters' development.

Challenging Stereotypes and Biases

Sarah Maconachie's experiences and the stories she shared in her book, "Working Dads and Balancing Acts," challenge traditional stereotypes and biases related to parenting roles. Her emphasis on breaking norms that confine fathers to being solely providers and not nurturing caregivers is a powerful message for dads and their involvement in their daughters' lives. It serves as a reminder that stereotypes and gender biases should not dictate the roles that fathers play in their children's lives.

The Impact of an Involved Father

One of the key takeaways from Sarah's insights is the immense impact of an involved father in a child's life. She highlighted the emotional support, presence, and active participation of her own father, emphasizing how it shaped her and her sisters, propelling them toward successful and fulfilling lives. This perspective underscores the pivotal role fathers play in instilling confidence, self-esteem, and strength in their daughters. It also reflects the idea that fatherhood goes beyond providing financial stability and encompasses emotional, mental, and social support crucial for their daughters' growth.

Encouraging Open Communication

Sarah's recollections of her father being a pillar of support during emotional upheavals and difficult phases is a testament to the significance of open communication within the parent-child relationship. Her father's approachability and willingness to engage with his daughters on a personal level created a secure environment for them to express their emotions and seek guidance. This highlights the importance of open dialogues and nurturing an environment where daughters feel comfortable confiding in their fathers. It's an essential aspect of fatherhood that fosters trust and empowers daughters to overcome challenges and become resilient individuals.

Shifting the Paradigm

The insightful conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Sarah Maconachie outlined the need to challenge the existing societal norms and inspire a shift in the paradigm of fatherhood. Sarah's determination to make a change in the space of working parents and advocating for equal parenting roles stands as a beacon for shifting the traditional perceptions of parenting. Her work and dedication are geared towards creating a world where fathers are equally recognized as nurturing caregivers, capable of fostering their daughters' dreams, ambitions, and well-being.

As you absorb Sarah's narrative, it becomes evident that empowering dads to be present, engaged, and supportive in their daughters' lives is a critical factor in building a generation of empowered women. Sarah's encouragement for dads to prioritize spending time with their children reinforces the idea that every moment invested in their daughters' lives profoundly impacts their growth and development.

In this episode I found that Sarah Maconachie's insights brought to light the necessity of active fatherhood in shaping strong, independent women. Her work not only encourages dads to be present, nurturing, and communicative but also challenges societal norms, promoting gender equality in parenting roles. The takeaways from the podcast serve as a compelling call to action for dads to actively engage in their daughters' lives, fostering an environment where girls can thrive and reach their full potential.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to the Dads with Daughters podcast, where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughter's lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being on this journey that you and I are both on to find ways to be able to be the best dads that we can be, to raise our daughters to be those strong, independent women that we want them to be. And I know, you know, it's not always easy. It there's not Oh, there's going to be bumps in the road. There's going to be times where you are going to hit your head up against the wall, and you're gonna say, oh, my gosh. There has to be a better way. And that's why this podcast is here is to give you resources, allow for you to meet other people, learn from other people, and gain some insights into the journey that they are on as parents, but also learn from them in regards to the journey that they're on in raising daughters or in finding other resources that are out there that can help you to do just that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]:
Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have different things that they can share with you. Sometimes it's mom, sometimes it's dads. You know, there's people from across lots of different spectrums. And I am so happy that you come back every week and take a listen in to learn to be a little vulnerable and be willing to open yourself up to learning as well. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Sarah McConachie is with us today. And Sarah is a mindset coach for parents. She is an author.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]:
She has a brand new book that we're gonna be talking about called Working Dads and Balancing Acts. And don't all of us sometimes feel like we're balancing stuff and trying to work day to day and and trying to balance this thing called fatherhood. And when I saw that she had written this book, I definitely wanted to have her on to be able to talk not only about the book, but about her own journey in being a mother to a daughter as well and to kids to be able to bring that perspective in as well. Sarah, thanks so much for joining us today.

Sarah Maconachie [00:02:27]:
Hi. And thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be on here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:31]:
I'm really excited to have you on as well. You know, one of the things that I would love to do before we even jump into the concept of this book that you wrote. So you are a mother of 2 girls and you're a female yourself. I know what it's like to raise daughters myself and what it was like as a father. But for you jumping in to being a mother of daughter, what was going through your head? And I know your oldest is a daughter, so that was your first. Talk to me about that journey for you. And what did you have to do to either prepare yourself to be a mother to a daughter, or what were the surprises that came with it that you didn't expect?

Sarah Maconachie [00:03:06]:
That's a really good question. I was very excited to have a daughter. I'm one of 3 girls and I had a great upbringing and I love my sisters. And so I was excited to have a girl because I was excited to potentially have what I had when I was growing up. And I think as a female as well, I'm a very determined lady, as are my sisters. All 3 of us have really done very well in life. We've got really good careers, and I'm a bit of a feminist from that perspective. I love gender equality, and I was quite excited to raise a strong, powerful girl.

Sarah Maconachie [00:03:44]:
I have to say that really excited me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]:
So talk to me a little bit about your own father. And you said you had a great upbringing. And you and your sisters definitely were given some things to help you to spread your wings, to be able to become the people that you are today. What did your father do specifically that you feel helped to pave the way for you to become the person that you are today?

Sarah Maconachie [00:04:09]:
The biggest thing, he was present. He was very present. He absolutely adores us all. He absolutely adores his 3 girls. He's a very blokey bloke. My dad. He's a sportsman. He played rugby, golf, squash.

Sarah Maconachie [00:04:24]:
You name it. He played it. So for him, I think he always wanted boys because the natural, you know, you want the sport, you want this and then the other. And he had 3 girls and it was probably the best thing for him. We all love something that he relates to, so he's got one that loves rugby, and he watches rugby with her. My other sister and I did lots of athletics and did lots of sport ourselves. So he got to do that with us. And the most important thing for him, though, was he was there.

Sarah Maconachie [00:04:52]:
He was a teacher, so he was at home at dinner time. And my memories of growing up were of us altogether. My dad was very, very present and he was just as involved as my mum was. And he supported us a lot when we went through breakups, boyfriends, friends, this, that and the other. It was actually our dad that we went to because he's a very soft person in that respect, and he was really lovely and really approachable from those emotional rollercoasters that we went on. He was really good at dealing with it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]:
So talk to me a little bit about you said that when those big emotional times came, you went to your father. And that's not always the case in every in every situation and every family dynamic. So what was it that your dad did to allow for you to feel that he was the person that you could go to when those things came up that opened that door for communication, for dialogue, for you to feel safe to go To him in those moments of need,

Sarah Maconachie [00:05:57]:
just always, he would always bring it up with us. I mean, mom would know what was going on because moms know everything and she would obviously talk to my dad and then he would come to us and say, this is happening. He'd give us a big hug and he would just tell us that everything would be okay. And it's just a phase in our life and that we have to go through these things. And he was just really caring and really supportive. And he would come to us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:24]:
Now from all of this work that your father did in helping you and your sisters to become who you are today, I'm sure that as you grew and flew out of the nest, you and I talked before this, you you've been a world traveler and you have really explored. So talk to me about you leave England, you go to the United States, you end up in Australia. What's the one piece of advice that he gave you that you hold on to today that you look back on and say that was so meaningful?

Sarah Maconachie [00:06:59]:
The biggest thing was for me, and it's not actually that long ago, moving to Australia. Obviously my mom very upset because I was actually really close. Well, I still am. I've always been very, very close to my mum. I was always the mommy's girl and I'm the one that flew the nest. So she's always struggled with it, understandably. And they came to Australia when I had first met my husband, I think. And I think they could finally see that I was settled, and I've met a lovely man.

Sarah Maconachie [00:07:30]:
And I think that was a big factor for them. And my dad just loved it here. He absolutely loved it. And I just remember having a chat with him over a few drinks where all the good conversations happen, and he said, I'm just so happy that you're happy. And as long as you're happy, it doesn't matter where you are or what you're doing. I just can see the happiness in you. And for me, that's all I need. And that's always stuck with me because it's true and that's what I would want for my children.

Sarah Maconachie [00:07:58]:
You just want them to be happy. And although it sacrifices my parents' happiness with me being this far away to a degree, I think that, you know, my dad's able to really remove himself to a degree and be like, I just want you to be happy. And that's all that matters.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:14]:
Now earlier today, you talked about that you see yourself as a feminist. You're raising daughters now. Talk to me about what did your dad do to support that feminism that you have within yourself? But also, what are you doing to now encourage your own kids? And they're young, and maybe you're not doing that much yet. But what do you hope to do as they get older to inspire that same sense of feminism in them as they get older?

Sarah Maconachie [00:08:42]:
Look, as I sort of outlined, both of my parents were always very supportive of whatever we wanted to do. I mean, I'm a big dreamer and my mum and dad will often roll their eyes at me and be like, here we go again. But I always achieve what I've say, what I've said I'm going to go out and do. So now the eye rolling has gone down a little bit. But with all 3 of us, they were just supportive of our hopes and dreams. They, you know, encouraged us to go to university. They encouraged us to do what we wanted to do. That was gonna whatever was gonna make us happy.

Sarah Maconachie [00:09:13]:
They encouraged us to do it, And they gave us good boundaries to make sure we stayed on the straight and narrow. And they both just really raised us to follow our dreams and to do what it was that we wanted to do to make us happy. I think that's the same for me. It's about being able to really express those personality traits that are hard in children, but actually are going to be magical when they're adults. And I notice this with my own daughter, My eldest in particular is very defiant. She really likes to think she rules the roost in this house. And to be honest, she probably does, But she also goes through the city and says, mom, when I grow up, I want to work at the on the top floor of the biggest building. And I'm like, you know what, girl, you go for it.

Sarah Maconachie [00:10:00]:
And she's very determined. She's going to win her kindy carnival. She is only getting A's. She asked me recently, what happens when you get an f? I don't even know where she's got this from. And I was like, well, you know, it doesn't matter. And she was like, it won't matter anyway, mom, because I'll only get As. She's 4. The determination of this child is just outrageous.

Sarah Maconachie [00:10:21]:
But, you know, instead of trying to squash that, I try and manage her expectations. But I also am like, you know what? If you've got the determination to go out and get it, then go and get it. I'm not gonna squash that because it's a really great trait to have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:36]:
Now I mentioned the fact that you have a new book that's out called Working Dads and Balancing Acts, and you have another book that called Working Mothers Inspiring Others, but specifically about this book about fathers. And I guess first and foremost, I I love to get the origin stories. As an author myself, I know how much time and effort and passion have to go into the creation of these books. And it takes a lot of time and effort and planning and passion to be able to get to that finish line so that you can get that out into the world. What was it about this topic that really inspired you to want to write this and get this out into the world?

Sarah Maconachie [00:11:23]:
I need to try not to ramble on for too long when I answer this because it comes from a big piece. So the way that I was raised, as I said, I was raised in a very equal house. And I think that even for my generation, that's quite rare. I remember having a conversation with my sister. I started blogging and writing a lot around working parents, but I wrote a lot about dads as well as moms because I just think that there's so much out there for mothers, but there's just not enough for dads. And there's there's not really a voice for dads, I felt, that really depicted the change in society and the way that things are changing. So I was having this conversation with my sister and I was like, oh, it's really funny that all 3 of hers are in very equal relationships. Our husbands are very involved with our children.

Sarah Maconachie [00:12:11]:
It's very fiftyfifty in the way that we parent. And in studying mindset, it really does go back to that belief system and how you're raised and that programs, how you then raise your own children and the way that you sort of deliver your own life is very much to do with the environment that you are raising yourself. So all 3 of us have really replicated the way that we were raised, which is amazing. And so we were kind of talking about it and I was like, but it just seems so easy that we are so equal in our household, in our relationship. But I also feel like that's because we're such strong females. We communicate what it is that we need our husbands to do as husbands and as fathers. And that communication piece and that learning piece really has enabled us to foster those relationships and that equality for our own children as well. So it kind of evolved from that, and that way of thinking that I was thinking more and more about dad, particularly in the workplace.

Sarah Maconachie [00:13:18]:
I'm very passionate about working as a mum and being able to create that balance. And I went through a process that I think a lot of mums do go through where I took a job that was really junior and about a quarter of what I'd previously been earning so that I could have flexibility to be able to look after my children as well as have a career. And as I went through a mindset journey myself and I really regained my own purpose, my own worth, and what it is that I needed for me, I realized how much that actually occurs, especially in women. But to solve the problem with that, there needs to be also work for dad. It needs to be a double edged sword. You can't just say, here you go, women are mothers in the workplace. Here's all the things for you, flexible working, whatever it is that you need. What are you also doing for dads for them to be able to take that load, which many dads actually want to do anyway, and to be able to really create that balance so that women can be doing that working and parenting, but so can dads.

Sarah Maconachie [00:14:28]:
So it really stemmed from that view, and I just decided to write these books. It just came out of nowhere to be honest, and I was like, I just want stories from mums and dads of their journeys that will help to support and provide advice and guidance for other moms and dads out there that want to work and have that balance of being a parent as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:53]:
Now I know in the book you talk to fathers and you talk to a number of different fathers. Talk to me about some of the biggest takeaways as you were talking to them that you incorporated into the book that you hope that people are going to be taking out of reading the book itself?

Sarah Maconachie [00:15:12]:
Well, the chapters are directly from the dads themselves. So they have shared completely their own stories, which is amazing because it's different voices and it's completely their journeys, which I love. So there's a few things in there that are real takeaways for me. There's one who came who didn't have a father who came from a really difficult upbringing and his journey of trying to navigate fatherhood when he had no role model himself, is really incredible and really moving, but also he shares so much emotion around what he didn't share in terms of his own journey and how scared he was to become a dad because he just didn't know what that looked like and what that was as a role. So that was one real key aspects that I loved. Another one is a partner of a big law firm, and he shares a story which really, I had this conversation with him and it really sparked me wanting to write the dad's book. So he was telling me how his 2 boys he's a partner in a big law firm, so he would leave before the boys were up and was home after they went to bed in the week because he worked such long hours. And he was home for 2 consecutive days once and he was putting his boys, one of his younger boys, to bed, who was about 7 I believe at the at the time, and the boy was like what are you doing? Like why are you here? And he was like what do you mean? I'm your dad, I live here.

Sarah Maconachie [00:16:41]:
And he was like yeah but you don't. Like I know that you come and sleep with mum some in the week, but, like, you don't live here. I thought you just came at weekends. And he was like he cried. He was like, he's dagger to his heart and it made him realize the effects that this was having on his children. And he literally changed that day and made sure he didn't leave until the boys had gone to school in the morning. He made a change that the very next day and he's never stepped back. So there's that and there's, and then there's the stories of those, of dads that wanting to stay at home and have let their wives really thrive in their careers.

Sarah Maconachie [00:17:23]:
Like, there's such an eclectic mix of stories in there. It's it's just so inspiring to hear the different journeys and the challenges that different people face, but how they overcome it. And it's really, it's a reminder of how important it is to be present as a dad. There's a lot of older ish generation that didn't have paternity leave, that didn't take any paternity leave, and that look back and really regret that. So I think it's a really nice reminder that it's so important to be present because you do not get those years back. And that's really, for me, the crux of the of the book and the stories that are delivered is it's just so essential to be part of your children's lives and work and everything else comes second. So, you know, if you've got that choice, make it a good one.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:15]:
So talk to me about, as you walked into the writing of this book, you talked to a lot of these fathers. Did you walk in with any preconceived notions that were shattered by what you heard and what was shared with you?

Sarah Maconachie [00:18:29]:
Not really. I think the journeys and the chapters and stories that have been shared were really as I ice age of, oh, well, you know, my wife does everything and, you know, that's fine, each their own. But it's really still apparent today and there's still a lot of work to be done, I think, in order to shift those stereotypes and biases of what dads and what fatherhood looks like. So for me, the book lived up to everything that I wanted from it. It's really created the stories, the journeys, and the challenges that I really wanted to highlight because it also has the flip side of regret or whatever that falls with those aspects of not prioritizing your family. So it delivers the right message, but it really fulfilled exactly what I wanted from it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:28]:
And as you end the writing of this specific book, are there other questions? Are there other things that came out at the end where you said, I need to delve into this more?

Sarah Maconachie [00:19:40]:
Oh, yeah. Well, look, it's really spurred my passion even more. So I was working in the mindset space for the last few years, but it's made me so determined to make a change in the space of working parents. So I'm now focusing I've created a program for working parents across workplaces. So it's for dads and moms, and it's really enabling them to create a mindset that allows them to have more balance, have purpose, to create all those aspects that we do lose a little bit when we become a parent because we naturally prioritize our children. But prioritizing our children is a given, but we have to look after ourselves because we are the role models of our children. So the better versions that we are of ourselves, the better versions that our children are. So the book has really spurred me to make a difference, to be honest.

Sarah Maconachie [00:20:39]:
So I am determined to get into every corporate organization that I can find for them to be implementing support for parents that are working, because I just think it's essential for the growth of our children and the next generation. We are raising the future of employees, so we need to be the best version of us so that we're raising what we want as the next generation. So it's made me very determined to make a change.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:09]:
I know every country is a little bit different when it comes to looking at things like paternity leave and and allowing for equal access to that special time, especially when your children are first born. How are you having those conversations with businesses? And what do you say to fathers that are working in companies right now that are not supportive of that, of how they can advocate or try to start those conversations within their own companies.

Sarah Maconachie [00:21:39]:
Well, actually one of the chapters in my book is from the CEO of Clough, which is a big mining organization. And his name is Peter Bennett. And so I worked for Clough after I had my first daughter and I left because it was like a clock watch. They it was like you had to be at your desk till 4:30 and I had this horrendous guilt and I just needed to leave because I wanted to pick her up and blah blah blah. So I ended up leaving. And I've had this conversation with Peter because he's actually since this was, I mean, 3 years ago or whatever, but since then, he's actually been one of the leaders for gender equity and for implementing all these changes for paternity leave in Clough. So within the last 2 years, not one man had taken paternity leave in that organization ever, which I just think is crazy. So now he's up there and now 50% of men have taken paternity leave within the last 2 years and are taking longer extended leave to spend time with their families and things like this.

Sarah Maconachie [00:22:47]:
So there's actually an incredible uptake for this in WA in particular, and it's been really well driven. There's a organization, CEOs for Gender Equity, and they are driving all this change. And especially with regards to paternity leave and maternity leave and it just being leave. It doesn't matter whether you're the mum or the dad, all, benefits for employees are equalized and you take it as, as you please. So there's a lot of that going on in WA in particular, which is amazing, but there is still a long way to go with a lot of organisations as well. So my advice, if you were in that situation where you're in an organization that is not supporting it, I would go with evidence. I would go with the research that proves and shows how important it is for dads to be present within their children's lives, for them to bond with their children in those early days for the support that's needed for moms. Like, it's just crazy to me how some organizations don't offer that.

Sarah Maconachie [00:23:54]:
I had a c section and twins. If my husband hadn't had 6 weeks off, I do not know what I would have done. I needed him home. It wasn't an option. I had to have him there. So it's really about being able to be realistic about this and just have those open and honest conversations. And you know what? There's lots of organizations that are doing it. So if your company won't do it, look for jobs elsewhere because they don't deserve to have you as an employee, in my opinion, if they are not supporting you from a parenting perspective.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:28]:
Now you just mentioned the fact that people should look for the research that shows the importance of fathers and the engagement of fathers. If a dad that's listening is saying, I don't know where to start, where should they start? Where should they start to find that information to be able to get that information to use to start having those conversations?

Sarah Maconachie [00:24:49]:
A lot of the fathering groups. So Fathering Together, the Fathering Project, which is across Australia, just Google it, and you'd be able to find a lot of research on their podcasts. There's so many resources out there for dads now. It's just about digging a little deep to make sure you get it. But fathering groups, for me, that's where I get a lot of my information from because they're just brilliant from that space and understanding what is happening in the market. It tends to be pretty well summarized, I always find. So fathering groups on LinkedIn or Facebook.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:24]:
Sarai Patel Well, Sarah, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing to be able to push fathers to think about things in a little bit different way. And if you've got one piece of advice that you wanna give to all dads, what would that advice be?

Sarah Maconachie [00:25:37]:
Spend time with your children. You don't get that time back, and it's precious time for you and for your children. I think that sometimes we believe that our children are more resilient than what they are at times and the love of their parents is literally all they need. So make sure you spend time with your kids.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:00]:
Now if people wanna find out more about your books and other things that you're doing, where's the best place for them to go?

Sarah Maconachie [00:26:06]:
And you can find me on my website. It's usually a very good spot or on LinkedIn. So Sarah McConachie on LinkedIn or www.workhardparenthard.com.au is my website and all my programs and my books and all my blogs are on there as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:24]:
Well, Sarah, it's been a pleasure having you here today for having you share your own journey as a mother, but also your journey in writing this book and getting this out into the world. And I wish you all the best.

Sarah Maconachie [00:26:34]:
Thank you so much. Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:36]:
The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together.org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:28]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and beat the world to them. Be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:21]:
You're the best dad you can be.
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Crafting Wonder in Childhood: Lessons from Gregg Behr and Mister Rogers
27 mai· Dads With Daughters
**Seizing Accidental Moments**

Fatherhood is an expedition without a clear map, each phase of our children's lives an uncharted territory waiting to be explored. On today's Dads with Daughters podcast we welcomed Gregg Behr to discuss wonder and parenting. Behr, the executive director of the Grable Foundation and a father of two, reflects on the journey that began with trepidation upon learning he was going to be a father to a daughter. Amid fears and dreams, he emphasized his role in ensuring his daughters have 'outrageous confidence' in themselves.

This emotional connection to fatherhood resonates with many dads, who similarly navigate gender biases and aspire to protect their daughters from the doubts the world may cast. But Behr offers a perspective shift: difficulties in parenting are universal. Yet, as a 'girl dad,' he feels a unique joy and asserts there’s no hard part to being a father to daughters when the heart focuses on the small, joyous discoveries they bring into life.

**The Power of Intentionality**

Life's unpredictability can thrust accidental moments of connection to the forefront of our fatherly experiences, as Behr discovered during prolonged periods of single parenting. These unexpected times can surprisingly foster deep bonds and familiarize us with the nuanced layers of our children’s personalities. Dr. Lewis reiterated the importance of embracing these accidental, seemingly mundane moments. These slices of daily life hold the potential for lasting significance in both the parent and child's heart.

**Infusing Wonder into Every Day**

Shifting gears, the episode delved into Behr's co-authored book 'When You Wonder, You’re Learning,' inspired by none other than Fred Rogers of 'Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.' Embracing Rogers' vision, Behr shared insights into being a deliberate learner and listener, and the ways in which he integrated these values into fatherhood and philanthropy work. He emphasized the importance of wonder and curiosity, traits often lost as we transition into adulthood. Yet, in mirroring behaviors of joy and wonder for our children, we counter the inevitable dimming of creativity that life tends to impose.

**Beyond the Podcast: Living Lessons**

The dialogue on 'Dads with Daughters' extended beyond theory, as Behr recounted applying Fred Rogers' wisdom to difficult discussions with his daughters. Whether addressing complex questions about safety and race or fostering daily habits rooted in amazement, Behr embraced the opportunity to wonder and wander through life's maze with his daughters by his side.

Dr. Lewis and Behr's exchange serves as a potent reminder: fatherhood, while fraught with challenges, is a terrain ripe with accidental marvels and intentional teachings. The episode epitomizes the podcast's mission to aid dads in nurturing strong, independent women and the reciprocal growth that fatherhood engenders.

As we pull away from the microphone and the echoes of Behr's stories and insights fade, we are left with the enduring notion that to be a dad with daughters is to be an architect of wonder, festooning the foundation of fatherhood with loving, intentional moments crafted from the everyday tapestry of life. 'Dads with Daughters' offers a community where such architectural feats are not only recognized but celebrated, as we all strive to be the best dads we can be, helping our daughters ascend into their own era of wonder.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:16]:
Welcome back to dads with daughters where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong, independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, we come every week and we have great conversations and I love being able to walk beside you as you are figuring this thing out called fatherhood. Every day is a journey, and every phase of life that your kids are in is a journey. And I'm just glad to be able to have these conversations and be able to be a part of it with you. Fatherhood can feel alone at times, but it doesn't have to be. And it is so important to be able to connect with other dads, to be able to create community, to be able to learn and be open to learn about things that may help you to be a better dad. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, people that have gone before you that are doing this alongside you as well, that have their own daughters and are learning along the way to be able to help you, to be able to give you some perspective, some insights, some things that might help you as you move forward in your own fatherhood journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]:
This week, we've got another great guest with us. Greg Baer is with us. And Greg is the executive director of the Grable Foundation, but he's also a father of 2 daughters. And we're gonna be talking about his own journey as a father, but we're also gonna be talking about the a journey that he had in not only writing a book, but really bringing a new perspective into his own fatherhood journey, which was that looking at the concept of wonder. And we're gonna talk about that. So we'll get to that in just a few moments. But the first and foremost, I am just really excited to have Greg here. Greg, thanks so much for being here today.

Gregg Behr [00:02:05]:
Chris, I am absolutely honored to be here, and I love how you described figuring it out because I feel like I'm gonna be figuring out fatherhood right in front of you right now. I

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]:
think you're giving yourself too little credit because I think you're doing some good things, and we're gonna talk about those things. But first and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And you've got 2 daughters, so I wanna go back. I wanna go back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a father to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Gregg Behr [00:02:32]:
I was scared. I think probably like a lot of dads. It's not that I necessarily wanted a boy. We were hopeful for kids. We were hopeful for a healthy child. And when we learned it's a girl, I remember thinking, I don't know anything about girls. I wasn't raised in a family with sisters. Oh my gosh.

Gregg Behr [00:02:50]:
What am I going to do? And so there was joy about we're pregnant, joy about, the pregnancy going well and worry about what do I need to know? What do I need to learn? I knew enough at the time to know my number one job in their lives is to make sure that they just have outrageous confidence about themselves and what they can do in the world. And that so that that compass has always stayed with me from the very beginning before the moment they entered this world.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:20]:
Now I I've heard that before from other dads, from pretty much every father that I talked to, that fear comes with not only fatherhood, but being a father to a daughter. And I guess first and foremost, as you think about that fear, what was your biggest fear in raising a daughter?

Gregg Behr [00:03:36]:
Yeah. Chris, I think it was just it was that I didn't know what I didn't know. I think I fast forwarded all the way from 0 to puberty and I'd like to think that I noticed enough about the world to know that there's gender bias and things might be a little bit harder for a girl than it is for a boy. And so I immediately had that, like, I wanna be a bear dad who is, like, really protective of her daughter because she's gonna be amazing, and I want her to have all sorts of possibilities in this world, and I'm gonna fight off all of the gremlins who are going to poison her with doubt or get in her way because she's gonna be every bit of what she wants to be as a boy could be. Like, they seem like silly things to say out loud, but, like, these were thoughts in my head at the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:18]:
And I think that that goes through a lot of dad's heads. And as you move along, between those different phases in your kids' lives. You learn a little bit more, not only about yourself, but about your daughters. You learn that the differences may not be as different, even though they are. I mean, there there's definite differences there. What would you say has been the hardest part for you in being a father to daughters?

Gregg Behr [00:04:40]:
There's no hard part. There's honestly, there's just joy. Like the hard part hearkens back to something you said a moment ago. It's just hard being a parent. It's hard being a dad. I can't imagine living in this world without being a girl dad because I'm now the dad of 2 girls. And I will say Chris, we lost a child in between our 2 girls. And so I remember thinking when we had a healthy pregnancy and we were knew we were gonna have a second child, I was actually begging at that point.

Gregg Behr [00:05:06]:
I'm like, I want a girl. Right? Like, I fell in love with my first little girl, and I knew I'd fall in love with my second little girl. And I guess at the time, we had friends who had babies and young kids, and I was like, boys are crazy. What is wrong with that species over there? And I really wanted a girl. Like, I feel so lucky to have 2 healthy girls. I would have been happy with 10 girls. These young women now they're ages 10 12. They are strong and confident and powerful and fun.

Gregg Behr [00:05:35]:
They have good hearts, smart brains. Like, I love being around them. I guess I don't know at this point what it would be like to be the dad of a boy, but I feel so blessed to have these 2 girls. And it's just the hard part is just trying to be a good parent every day in the mundane little things in their lives, because it's those mundane things that I know add up to the big things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:54]:
Now with 2 kids, you have to find that balance to be able to create those unique relationships with each of them because each child is unique. Many times when you have more than one child, the personalities are very different. So talk to me about how you've been able to cultivate, how you've been able to work to develop those unique relationships with both your daughters.

Gregg Behr [00:06:17]:
Chris, I think in some ways, I've I've tried to be deliberate and intentional about this, and in some ways, I've been accidental. So let me explain. So in terms of being deliberate and intentional, even though I'm a workaholic and I probably don't give enough attention to my family, my personal life, my kids, the way that I should, I do try and be deliberate about the time that I spend with them during the time, you know, when I'm able to be home, when they get home from after school, they get home at different hours, their bed routines, and spending some time with them before they go to bed. And also because we have 2, my wife and I are often going in different directions because, So I try and be really deliberate about the time that we have cars together or on the sidelines or in a gym or whatever it might be. And just I try and be really mindful about being alongside them, not as a friend, but as a parent. The accidental part is this. So during these past 2 years, my wife's father, my father-in-law fell he became quite ill and ultimately passed. And I mentioned this to say that he lives a long distance away, half a world away.

Gregg Behr [00:07:28]:
And so what was thrust upon us as a family was that my wife was gone for long intervals at a time over a 2 year period. And there were, there were many months. I mean, we're talking more than 6, 7, 8 months that it was just me, single working dad with my 2 girls. And I don't wish this on anyone. It's hard. Honestly, Chris, I have no idea how single parents get by in this world having had a small window into that. And I will say this time when there was just the 3 of us, our relationship is so fundamentally different than it was previous to that. And there's a closeness and I really got to know both girls really well because I, you know, I had to spend time whether I wanted to or not.

Gregg Behr [00:08:05]:
Right? Like, I had to spend time with them in all sorts of household activities, in their school and extracurricular activities, just in their lives in general, in the little chat, you know, mini breaks and things we try to take, in the vacations, or even just walking in the neighborhood. And it's this accidental time that I'm unexpectedly grateful for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:24]:
Accidental time. I love that concept because I think that many times in the small moments when you come home from work and your child asks you to come in or they want to just they ask you to sit down and do something with them. Those can be accidental moments. Those can be those moments that become very important to the child and to you. And as they get older, it's not always easy to find that time, or that they want to spend the time. But it's important to take advantage of that time when they give it to you.

Gregg Behr [00:09:00]:
Chris, I just wanna celebrate what you just said. Right? Because one one of the things I learned during this period is exactly what we described. Now that we're lucky enough to be back together as a family, it's still noticing those moments, those mundane moments where accidental things might happen or when one of my daughters comes to me and says, hey, daddy. Can you take a break? Or can you play this game with me? And and I'm now much better, although I could always be better. I'm much better about noticing those moments and taking advantage of them. Because I I know that quip that people say all the time that the days are long, the years are short, but until you experience that, you don't really understand that. And so when one of my kids comes to me or if there's a moment, I try and be much more intentional than I was previously about spending that time with them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:43]:
It is so important to find that time and to have that special time because as you said, the the years are short. I've come to find that and they go by really fast, especially as your child gets older, they get involved in more things in the years just fly by. And people tell you that, especially when you have young kids and you're like, that's not the case. You know, it's gonna be a heck of a long time until they're 18, a heck of a long time until they're in college. And I got all the time in the world. And then in a blink of an eye, it is over and things change again. So you have to be present in the moment in that regard, because it is fleeting. Even though it may seem long, if you have young children now, it does go by fast.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:28]:
And you definitely have to take advantage of that. Now, I know that every father has moments that are memorable, especially moments individually with your children, where you've been able to create those special memories, the special experiences, what have been the most memorable experiences that you've been able to have thus far as a father with your daughters?

Gregg Behr [00:10:50]:
There are some moments with my girls that we've repeated because they're Monday moments that we've made special. In the fall, it's often the case. I love college football. College football could be on the TV which we can see from the kitchen and my girls and I love making homemade pizzas from scratch or when the snow comes and maybe every time the snow comes now pouring maple syrup on fresh snow and eating that and celebrating that, or just holidays. Like we make big deals in my family of birthdays and holidays like Christmas and New Year's and Valentine's Day and St. Patrick's Day. It's all of those little daily life things. And it's also true that some of our more special times together are when we're unburdened by work or the errands we have to run because we've gone away.

Gregg Behr [00:11:36]:
You know, we've gotten away for a weekend or we've been able lucky enough, privileged enough to schedule a trip. And even though, Chris, I'm I'm the sort of person that makes lists and I'm pretty deliberate and intentional about my work, When I travel, I like to go trucking. Right? Like, where is this road gonna take us? Or, I just read about this farmer's market in this part of Montreal. Let's go see what it's like. Right? A lot of unplanned time and I feel like those moments of unplanned time end up yielding the most special opportunities. Like, oh, remember we had that cheese or, like, remember we stumbled upon that zipline and we went ziplining over these beautiful mountains. Right? Like, it's those, I feel like, Chris, those most special moments are, you know, maybe it's the deliberate trucking or the deliberate exploration without a road map or a a plan for where we're gonna walk to that day, but it's those moments that I think as a family, we treasure the most.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]:
The moments that you just talked about and the things that you're reflecting on make me really think about the fact that you are an author of a book called when you wonder you're learning. And in your book, you really dive deep into the concept of wonder, and really bring some of the lessons that mister Rogers brought out into the world in my formative years and the formative years of some of you as well. And I guess first and foremost, as we delve into this, I'm really interested in the concept of this book and the concept of wonder. But I'm also interested in the origin story of this because, I mean, mister Rogers definitely had a strong impact on people of a certain age, we'll say, of people that grew up with his teachings. Some others are just still are were introduced to him after the fact, through reruns and things like that. But what made you and your colleague, Ryan Radetzky, decide that you wanted to delve deeper into what mister Rogers was teaching and how any of us could capture wonder and put it into practice, whether it be a teacher in a classroom, or a father in his own home?

Gregg Behr [00:13:47]:
Thank you for that question, Chris, or us, what you need to know about me and my coauthor Ryan is that we're kids of Western Pennsylvania. I'm podcasting to you right now from Pittsburgh, which is significant because it's from Pittsburgh that Fred Rogers recorded mister Rogers' neighborhood for nearly 40 years at WQED, America's first public television station. And Fred Rogers himself is a native of Western Pennsylvania. So I mentioned that to say there's something in the water around here. Even though mister Rogers is an American icon, also a Canadian icon, he felt like he was ours. Right? And we had the experience of living in his midst, and and I had the privilege of of knowing him and subsequently his wife. And you mentioned earlier that I work at the Grable Foundation. I work in education philanthropy.

Gregg Behr [00:14:33]:
And so for a couple of decades now, I've I've been the luckiest kid in Pittsburgh who gets to figure out how to support amazing teachers and librarians and museum exhibit designers in places like schools and libraries and museums trying to make learning experiences better for kids and their parents, families, and caregivers. Great support for the learning landscape all around Western Pennsylvania. And you could imagine in the course of that work, we we, you know, we're trying to make sure we're doing our jobs well. So we're reading a lot about what makes for great learning experiences. And it was about 7 years ago that Ryan and I are reading these articles and peer reviewed pieces that come from the University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie Mellon right in our own yard or the University of Michigan, MIT, Stanford and beyond. And these wickedly smart learning scientists were writing papers that increasingly read to me and Ryan as if they were scripts from mister Rogers' Neighborhood. And as you say, there are generations of Americans, including the 2 of us and you, who grew up watching mister Rogers. And we started to think, you know, is there another story to tell about mister Rogers? He's come back to our popular culture in movies like Morgan Neville's amazing documentary and and the Tom Hanks biopic.

Gregg Behr [00:15:46]:
But is there a story to tell about Fred who's not just that loving character that we remember in all of those television visits, but also Fred the learning scientist who was incredibly deliberate and intentional about his work and maybe a learning scientist who left us some blueprints about the things that we need to be doing today in our own homes or our schools and in our communities and neighborhoods. And Chris, it turns out after years of research and a lot of time studying the work of Fred Rogers, meeting with his colleagues, going to the archives, there in fact was a book to be written. And so we wrote, When You Wonder, You're Learning Mr. Rogers Enduring Lessons for Raising Creative, Curious, Caring Kids. And in that book, we talk about the tools for learning and the ways in which Fred Rogers in the neighborhood cultivated curiosity, protected our creativity, found ways to support deep deep listening and loving speech. All I could go on with a a number of tools that we learned about his work that we could translate with practical, accessible, doable examples of things that people are doing today in our schools, museums, libraries, and neighborhoods to really live out what we describe as the Fred method that combines that learning science that we know today about how learning works, coupled with what today we call whole child. It wasn't used during Fred's time, but that sense that every single kid and honestly, every adult goes through the continuous learning that's social, emotional, cognitive, physical, and beyond. Right? And so learning science plus whole chart equals the FRED method.

Gregg Behr [00:17:15]:
And there's also a job and personal hazard to co authoring a book like this because then you start to wrestle in your own life. Like, am I doing this? Am I doing it well enough? And that's where we find ourselves today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:26]:
So talk to me about that wrestling and what you, after all these years of exploring and delving deeper into what Fred was trying to teach that what you personally learned for yourself that you could incorporate into your own fatherhood that you either were doing or weren't doing? And how did you have to make adjustments?

Gregg Behr [00:17:50]:
What Fred did so well is he did lots and lots of little things. So we've used the word mundane a number of times in this conversation, and it's the mundane moments in life that matter. And I also speak to a big moment too. But it's the mundane moments maybe as I'm having a conversation about, you know, a new hard topic. Like, maybe my daughter's in middle school reading dystopian novels and, like, how do you begin to explain that concept? And I remember well that Fred, when he was trying to take kids to a place of mystery, he didn't start by taking us, for example, all the way to the crayon factory. Like, here's how crayons are made, kids. Now he started with his easel in his living room, a safe, comfortable place for us, showed us a crayon, something with which we were all familiar, started drawing and creating art, and talked a lot about that crayon, you know, and then use that simple thing that was so familiar to us to then take us off to the place of mystery about, for example, how crayons are made. And so I find myself, for example, in conversations with my kids today, wondering, like, okay, where do I start with a place that they can begin before trying to explain, like, here's how elevators run or whatever, like, whatever the subject matter might be that, you know, because kids ask thousands of questions, which is another thing.

Gregg Behr [00:19:09]:
Right? Like, I've learned to be quiet and to listen to their questions and encourage all sorts of questions and not be quick to say, like, hey, Alexa. What's the answer to this? Right? Like, even though sometimes that has to happen. I try and, you know, mister Rogers did, like, convey a sense like, Catherine, I don't I don't know what the answer that to that is, but, you know, later together, let's let's figure out if we can understand why the willow tree is blooming before every other tree in our yard. Right? Like, whatever it is because as you know, kids ask all sorts of questions. It also goes back to that sensibility that I described of of trucking, of exploring. You know, having times on Saturdays or Sundays when we tend to have the freest time in our lives to say like, what are we gonna try right now? Or, like, what if we put these three things together? Or, you know, mommy's making fried rice all the time and she's grabbing things from the refrigerator. What if we grab 3 things from our refrigerator, like the TV show Chopped and like, how could we put them together? So Chris, it's all sorts of little things, but if I may, may I share a big example too? This happened to me a couple years ago. Our book had just been released and it was a Friday night in March.

Gregg Behr [00:20:17]:
I was exhausted. I wanted to do nothing more than just lie on my sofa and watch NCAA March Madness basketball games. Right? Like there were 5 games on at the same time. Teams, I some of whom I'd never heard of before, like, oh, this is gonna be great. I'm gonna watch these amazing basketball games. And I'm sitting there watching these games and my daughter is resting with her head on the the side of the sofa. And she turns to me, Chris, and says, daddy, am I gonna be shot? Which for me, it was like, what? What did you just say? And sadly, there are a number of probably a lot of dads in this country who've heard that question before and the lots of others who've never heard it. And I hope they never ever hear that question.

Gregg Behr [00:20:58]:
And what I realized at that moment was that the news of the day of the week had gotten into my household and my kids are of mixed race. My wife is Asian American. And that week, a number of Asian Americans had been massacred in Atlanta. And somehow the news of that had gotten into our household even though maybe naively naively so, I try and protect my kids from, you know, all sorts of bad news in the world. I realized in that moment, Chris, it was like Fred Rogers lessons came rushing to me. 1st of all, I have to acknowledge this question. I can't obviously can't ignore it, but even though I wanted to ignore it and watch Cleveland say or whomever playing. Right? Like, I need to acknowledge this question, notice it, convey to my daughter that she's safe.

Gregg Behr [00:21:41]:
Like you're physically safe right here in this moment. You're emotionally safe that I, a carrying a dot in your life and right by your side. Honestly, I don't have the answers to this, but later right now and later in the coming days weeks, you know, we'll wonder together. We'll talk about this. We'll listen to each other. We'll talk about why this is on your mind. What's burdening you? Because as Fred said, anything that's mentionable is manageable. And there were so many lessons from our book, which is a book ultimately about creating those joyful, wondrous learning experiences in big and small ways for the kids in our lives, no matter what our role is, whether it's a parent or classroom teacher librarian or otherwise.

Gregg Behr [00:22:19]:
But in that moment as a dad watching back college basketball, like all of those lessons came home in a really powerful and profound way that obviously has become a core memory for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:29]:
It's definitely a powerful moment, a powerful moment between you and your kids. And one thing that comes to mind when I think about what you just said was that for a lot of people, wonder disappears. And there's a point in their life when something some kind of a switch is flipped. And you go from this childhood wonder of looking at the world, questioning things, and looking at things with different, we'll say different glasses to an acceptance of the world as it is. And maybe not questioning or wondering as much. So as you were going through this for yourself, and learning more about what Fred had put into the world, and you're writing this and putting something new out into the world to try to challenge people to flip that switch back on, What did you find that could help people to rekindle that wonder within their lives, that could rekindle and flip that switch for themselves a little bit easier than it might be for their kids so that they can then channel that wonder back into themselves, but also encourage that wonder to stay flipped on for their kids as well.

Gregg Behr [00:23:49]:
That's one of our biggest tasks as grown ups in kids' lives. And as you note, it does seem apparent that we lose that sense of creativity and the wonder and and forget the joys of something that maybe brought us lots of joy and we maybe used to spend lots of time doing. Right? Fred Rogers said, the best teacher in the world is the one who loves what he or she does and loves it right in front of you. Now couple that with learning science research. And one of the many studies that Ryan and I cite is some work by George Land, actually from the previous century. And in his research, he documented Chris exactly what you described because he had used this test for NASA, our space agency, and identified that so many 5 year olds, it was 98% of 5 year olds who took this test developed for NASA scored so well that they qualified as creative geniuses. Right? And and to your point, like, you can think about little kids and they they come up with the genius solutions to all sorts of things in their life. So, like, they wonder and they're creating and they're like, what happens if I do this? And what George Landon and his team did was that they tested that same group of 5 year olds every 5 years through adulthood.

Gregg Behr [00:24:56]:
And 98% at 5 years old by adulthood, that percentage had dropped to 2%. Now importantly, what George land and his team concluded was not that our creativity just naturally fades, but actually that we as, you know, teenagers and then as adults learn all sorts of noncreative behaviors. You know, we learn to suppress those things or to take in other people's judgment. We learned that sense of perspective taking and empathy building. And what's Fred Rogers' solution to this? It's to model behavior. And it's why when you go back as an adult and look at what he did on that program, you could see Fred in his living room and he could be, you know, putting together popsicle sticks or cutting with felt. And he made it clear at that moment that it was bringing him great joy. And it wasn't just Fred.

Gregg Behr [00:25:44]:
Right? It was Yo Yo Ma and Julia Child and all of those folks we got to meet, the celebrities really that we met in the program. And Fred wasn't celebrating their gold medals or their major accomplishments. He was celebrating the joy of Yo Yo Yo Ma playing the cello or Julie Child cutting up ingredients. And it was also the the guests I mean, it was also the characters on the show. Right? Handyman Negri was not just the hand man. He was the neighborhood guitarist. Officer Clemens was not just policing the neighborhood. He was an opera singer.

Gregg Behr [00:26:12]:
Right? Fred was making it clear that people have joy and that they we don't need to give up the things that bring us joy and creativity as we age. And so it's a reminder to us, as Fred said, if we want to be the best teacher in the world, that we have to love what we're doing right in front of our kids. It's why a teacher who loves beekeeping and brings beekeeping into her math class can light up a classroom around math because she's brought beekeeping something she loves into that classroom. It's like me jumping on my skateboard in my neighborhood and not realizing that all the kids are watching and having joy as an adult going down my cul de sac and surviving. And unbeknownst to me, loving what I was doing at that moment and sparking an interest in those kids. We as grown ups need to be really intentional and deliberate as we do things as much as possible demonstrate that the joy that it's bringing us. So there's good reason to pick up that guitar or pull out those knitting instruments or or to do the things that bring us joy or to try new things, but whatever we're doing, to be clear that it's bringing us joy. That's how we counter that sense of losing creativity and wonder.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:21]:
So how do you define joy? And how do you define wonder? And I can see concentric circles that there's an overlap, but how do you define them?

Gregg Behr [00:27:31]:
Yeah. Joy isn't just happiness. Joy is that internal sense of awe about experiencing something, witnessing something, doing something and in that sense of awe, I think is a a deep connection to wondering because in that moment you start to look around and you start to notice. Right? Like, noticing is really important because in that wondering, you start to then ask questions or provoke ideas in yourself or in others. And so to me, that sense of awe is in many ways a through line between joy and wonder.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:05]:
Now you've put this book out in the world. It's been out for a while now. And you've been traveling, you've been talking about it, you're taking what you've been learning and trying to help others to incorporate this. What's been the response from your own kids to what you wrote, but also the change that they may have seen in you based on what you learned and are putting into place now?

Gregg Behr [00:28:31]:
That is such a great question, Chris. And I thought you were gonna ask me about how the audience reacts. Right? Because it's so fun to talk about something, some person like Fred Rogers to whom there's such an emotional connection. And Ryan and I have been able to identify from others in the world all sorts of examples of FRED method like approaches. But to turn that question to myself, I know one of the things that my kids have seen because I've taken them to I've taken them to events. It could be book signings. It could be a talk I was giving either locally or another city. Like we've created little adventures about this.

Gregg Behr [00:29:04]:
And they've seen in me and my coauthor, Ryan, the joy that we have talking about this book. So there's no doubt that they've seen the joy of producing something in the world that matters to others in ways little and big. And maybe because of that, I don't know. I've seen my kids doing more writing, doing more reading, doing a bit more presentations and playful things that they did as younger kids, as preteens. Now, I hope they see in me the joy that I've had and the hard work, right? Like it's not like there's hard work and joy too. Right? The hard work and the commitment that I've had to something and then to find ways to share in ways that are helpful to others. I'm so hopeful they've they've noticed that. I think that they have.

Gregg Behr [00:29:50]:
I wish they were here right now to tell you, Chris, what they've noticed and what they haven't, but that's what I hope they've noticed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:56]:
It's always a great way to be able to, later tonight, say, let's talk about this. Let's explore.

Gregg Behr [00:30:01]:
What do you wonder about when you wonder about daddy's book about wonder?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:05]:
Very that's very meta. That's very meta. Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5 where I ask you 5 more questions that to delve deeper into you as a dad. You ready?

Gregg Behr [00:30:16]:
I hope so.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:17]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Gregg Behr [00:30:19]:
Patience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:20]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Gregg Behr [00:30:24]:
In the quiet of putting them to bed at night and knowing that they were rested, well fed, and that there was some joy and laughter and goodness to their day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:36]:
Now, if I was to talk to your kids, how would they describe you as a dad?

Gregg Behr [00:30:40]:
Silly, sometimes loud, hardworking, occasionally demanding.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:44]:
In 10 years from now, what do you want them to say?

Gregg Behr [00:30:46]:
I love you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:47]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Gregg Behr [00:30:49]:
Oh, Chris, as I start to tear up over here, I can't help but think of my own dad. My dad's a big guy. He's an amazing dad, big guy, big papa bear, played football, and he wears his emotions on his sleeve. And I feel like ever since I became a dad, I wear my emotions on my sleeve in the same way. And I I've gotten really comfortable with that. And if I can be half as bit as my dad was a dad to me and my brother, to my own girls, then I will have done a really excellent job for them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:22]:
Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today. And as you think about all dads that are out there, what's one piece of advice you'd want to leave with all of them?

Gregg Behr [00:31:32]:
I tell my girls every day to use their good heart and their smart brain. And I suppose time will tell, but I hope that just the repeated conveyance to them, like that sharing with them, the encouraging of them to use their good heart, to use their smart brain, and to know that they're beautiful will prove to be sticky in the human beings that they become.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:52]:
Well, Greg, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here for doing what you're doing to inspire wonder in kids, in adults, and challenging parents to encourage wonder within their kids as they grow up and flipping that switch back on to bring wonder back into our lives. If people wanna find out more about you, where should they go?

Gregg Behr [00:32:15]:
They would find our book at when you wonder.org. And happily, you can ideally find it at your local bookstore, also at Amazon, Barnes and Noble. And I'm also on X and LinkedIn, Greg Bear.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:27]:
Again, Greg, thank you so much for being here today, and I wish you all the best.

Gregg Behr [00:32:31]:
Chris, thank you so much. What a complete joy and honor to be with you, and thanks for letting me figure some of this out right in front of you. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:38]:
The Fatherhood Insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual and most dads are figuring it out as they go along, and the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps, and more. You will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week, all geared to helping you raise strong empowered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:30]:
We're all in the same boat, And it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time. We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast. The time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the Best dad that you can be.
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Effective Fatherhood: 5 Stones to Guide Your Journey with Nick Adams
20 mai· Dads With Daughters
In today's fast-paced world, the role of a father is evolving, and the importance of actively participating in one's daughter's life cannot be overstated. In this podcast episode, we have an insightful conversation with Nick Adams, a dedicated father of four and author of "Being the Dad You Wish You Had: 5 Big Stones for Effective Fatherhood." Through this discussion, Nick shares invaluable wisdom and experiences that shed light on the journey of fatherhood. His insights offer guidance on nurturing strong, independent daughters while navigating the complexities of being a father. Let's delve into the key takeaways from this engaging conversation.

Fatherhood Defined: Relationship Building

As the conversation unfolds, Nick truly encapsulates fatherhood in one word: relationship. This fundamental aspect is at the core of his approach to being a father to his daughters. Recognizing the influential power that fathers possess, Nick emphasizes the significance of focusing on building and nurturing a strong relationship with his children. This insight serves as a cornerstone for fathers looking to make a meaningful impact on their daughters' lives.

Navigating Fear and Parental Insecurities

Nick's candid reflections on the fears and insecurities he grappled with as he anticipated becoming a father to daughters resonate with many. His honest admission of feeling unprepared and inadequate highlights a common sentiment experienced by numerous fathers. By addressing these fears, Nick offers a relatable perspective that encourages fathers to acknowledge their vulnerabilities while embarking on the journey of fatherhood.

Redefining Success as a Father

A pivotal moment in the conversation arises when Nick reflects on the indicators of success as a father. His daughters' choices to actively engage in his work and to consider him not just as a father, but as one of their best friends, signify a profound sense of accomplishment for Nick. This reframing of success steers fathers away from external benchmarks and towards fostering relationships and open communication with their children.

Individuality and Connection with Each Child

Nick eloquently underscores the importance of recognizing and embracing the individuality of each child. Highlighting that what works for one child may not necessarily work for another, he imparts the wisdom of fostering unique relationships with each of his daughters. By valuing and understanding their distinct personalities, fathers are encouraged to tailor their approach to parenting, creating meaningful connections with their children.

Balancing Career and Fatherhood

With a busy schedule and a career that demands significant attention, Nick reflects on the necessity of finding balance between professional commitments and being an engaged father. His commitment to prioritizing his daughters' key events and establishing a consistent family dinner ritual underscores the significance of being present in their lives. Nick's experiences serve as a reminder for fathers to strive for balance in juggling their various responsibilities.

Embracing Imperfection and Making Progress

A striking aspect of Nick's insights is his emphasis on embracing imperfections while continuously striving for progress. By navigating the challenges of fatherhood with the mindset of making incremental strides, fathers are encouraged to alleviate the pressure of perfectionism. Nick's wisdom resonates as a reminder that the journey of fatherhood is about growth and connection, rather than achieving flawlessness.

Advice for Every Father

In a parting piece of advice, Nick extends a guiding principle to all fathers. He underscores the importance of understanding and supporting his children in becoming their authentic selves, rather than shaping them into a predetermined image. This profound insight emphasizes the transformative power of valuing individuality and empowering daughters to embrace their unique talents and aspirations.

Nick Adams' profound insights and candid reflections offer a wealth of wisdom for fathers navigating the intricate path of raising strong, independent daughters. His invaluable experiences underscore the significance of relationship-building, the embrace of imperfection, and the quest for progress as fundamental principles in effective fatherhood. By leveraging Nick's insights, fathers can embark on their journey with renewed inspiration, equipped to nurture vibrant relationships with their daughters while striving to be the best dads they can be.

Nick Adams' reflections highlight the transformative power of an engaged and empathetic father-daughter relationship, serving as a beacon of wisdom for fathers seeking to nurture meaningful connections with their children while navigating the rich tapestry of fatherhood.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:05]:
Welcome to dads with daughters. In this show, we spotlight dads, resources, and more to help you be the best dad you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:15]:
Welcome back to Dads with Daughters where we bring you guests to be active participants in your daughters' lives, raising them to be strong independent women. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to work with you, to talk with you, to be able to be on this journey side by side with you, because it is a journey. Every day is a journey with our daughters. And no matter what age they're at, things are going to change and to be able to walk hand in hand side by side with other dads, learning from them is so important. And that's why I love being able to have this opportunity to talk to you every week because none of us have to do this alone. So often society makes it seem like we do have to, but that is not the case. There are so many fathers that have gone before us that have kids that have grown and flown, that have learned things and can share that learning with you, maybe your neighbor, but it could also be someone on the other end of your earphones.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:19]:
And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you and help you along the journey that you're on. This week, we've got another great guest with us today. Nick Adams is with us. And Nick is dedicated to helping men understand the power of living into their strengths and dreams and provides actionable tools for the journey to authentic manhood. He is an author. He's a father of 4. So we're gonna be learning more about him and his journey as a father, and I'm really excited to have him here. Nick, thanks so much for being here today.

Nick Adams [00:01:55]:
Christopher, it's my pleasure. I'm looking forward. Even as you were introducing the show, I I just feel excited to see some of the phrases you use about connecting, not just when kids are young, but ongoing and having relationship that that's great. I'm excited about the show.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]:
Well, I'm excited to have you on. And as I said, you're a father of 4. So first and foremost, what I love doing is turning the clock back in time. I know you have 2 daughters. So I'm gonna go all the way back to that first moment that you found out that you were going to be a dad to a daughter. What was going through your head?

Nick Adams [00:02:23]:
Oh, I mean, honestly, I was terrified because, like, I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't really have a great role model as a father. And so I found myself expecting and not just expecting a child, but expecting a girl, which that's like, okay. I mean, at least I sort of understand guys. You know, I've I've never pretended to understand girls. And so, like, wow. It just really was pretty traumatizing. If not traumatized is wrong, it was scary and exciting.

Nick Adams [00:02:53]:
Oh my goodness. So exciting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:54]:
You definitely don't wanna forget that because your daughters won't let you live that down if that was the case. If you just say it was terrifying. So

Nick Adams [00:03:00]:
Yeah. It was both. Still is.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:02]:
So I wanna hear about the terrifying piece because I hear from a lot of dads that raising daughters, that you definitely run into that there's fear that there's fear that comes with that. What was your biggest fear in raising daughters?

Nick Adams [00:03:17]:
Well, I mean, really my biggest fear wasn't centered specifically around daughters. It was centered around being a father. And and a lot of it just came from the fact that I didn't feel like I had a very good role model. And, you know, you hear people talking about, oh, you know, my dad told me every day or I heard over and over. This is, you know, a a life lesson I learned from my dad. And I was just like, I really don't have any of those, you know. And so I felt very inadequate and unprepared. And so I think that was my biggest fear because like probably most parents, after you realize you're having a daughter or a son or whatever it is you're having, you're just excited.

Nick Adams [00:03:55]:
It doesn't matter about the gender as long as I mean, my big thing was as long as they're healthy and we can have a a going forward and things to work out, I'm good. So my biggest fears were really surrounding being a dad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:06]:
So coming into fatherhood without that mentor, without that person that you could look to to say they did it right, and I wanna follow that example. How did you surround yourself or find other people as substitutes to be able to guide you in that journey that you were on?

Nick Adams [00:04:24]:
Yeah. Unfortunately, when I started down the journey of fatherhood, you weren't doing podcast. And so I couldn't find you. That would have been a great find. But I did just try to find other men who were further along in the journey and watch what they were doing. I was a youth pastor at the time that that I was starting my family and having children. And so I was watching other people raise their kids and I was trying to help them disciple their kids and and just help their kids grow up into healthy people. And so I had the opportunity to watch both what worked and what didn't work and to glean information there.

Nick Adams [00:05:05]:
I did a whole lot of reading, took classes. And then really, I think observation, that was probably one of the strongest things I had going for me because I was in so many families' lives dealing with their children and getting to to watch them. So I think that was probably one of the best things for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:21]:
Now you have 2 daughters. Every child is completely unique, and they have different personalities. They have different wants. They have different needs. And as you are building those relationships with your kids, you have to keep that in mind. So talk to me about how you had to what you had to do to be able to build those unique relationships with each of your daughters individually?

Nick Adams [00:05:46]:
Well, I think you just pointed out what I think is one of the most important pieces, and that is acknowledging it. If you can keep in mind that these are not the same people and what works with 1 will not work with the other, then I think that's a big step forward. And then and and of course, they're not only are they different people, they're at different ages, they're at different stages, they're experiencing life in a different capacity. I mean, my girls are 2 years apart, which is pretty close, but still there's a pretty good difference between being a 4 year old and being a 6 year old, you know. I mean, you've you've not done any kind of school and you are now functioning as a 1st grader and being in the school all day long. And there's just a there's a lot of differences even in a 2 year gap. And if you have a larger gap, it's even more than that. And so I think just acknowledging that and trying to be aware of where your kids are in the process.

Nick Adams [00:06:38]:
And as as they step over those various hurdles of again, there's a pretty big difference between a 9 year old and an 11 year old or especially when they move on over to 12. You know, you start to have some pretty distinct differences there. So I think being aware of that and consciously focusing on what's their temperament. I don't I don't know if you're familiar with, the book, the 5 love languages. But, you know, I I read that and tried to not just apply it to my relationship with my wife, but also to think about my kids and say, you know, what is their love language? Because that was one of the things I watched as I was watching families and and being a youth pastor was you'd have 2 kids or 3 kids in the same family. And one of them would tell you my parents hate me and they're terrible and this is an awful family. And and you'd have another one and be like, oh my gosh, my parents are so great and and I feel so loved. And you're just like, what is going on? But I think a part of it is that we all experience love differently.

Nick Adams [00:07:38]:
And so just to your point, if you don't acknowledge that your kids are different and how you interact with them has to be different for them to feel that same level of nurture and love, then you end up with that kind of dynamic where you've got really different experiences coming out of the same home.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:55]:
Now as you look at I mean, you're a busy guy. There's You've had a lot of things happen in your life. You run a camp for kids. And being as busy as you are, there's definitely this balance. There's balance that you have to find in your life to be able to do the things that are important to you professionally, but also being that engaged father, especially with 4 kids and having to raise 4 kids that are probably all going in different directions as they're getting older and getting involved in things. So talk to me about balance and how you were able to balance all of that and still be that dad you wanted to be.

Nick Adams [00:08:30]:
Well, you know, Christopher, I'd love to tell you I did a great job at that. I'm not sure that I did, but I did try. And you know, one of the things that I I talked about in the book is really the goal I don't think is to be perfect. It's to make progress and none of us are gonna do it perfectly. And, and I just, I acknowledge that through the years, I really probably didn't do that balance perfectly. But one of some of the things I really tried to focus on was being at all of my kids' events. I mean, my youngest daughter, I was actually doing a international trip and I missed her birthday. Now, never mind that I sent her to do one of her favorite things and, you know, paid for that to happen.

Nick Adams [00:09:13]:
And, but I wasn't there. And then when I got back home, I missed it by like 2 days. And when I got back home, we celebrate it. But probably for the next decade, just periodically, she'll remind me that I missed her birthday. You know? And and I just, I just laughed. I'm like, you know, honey, I missed one event out of your whole lifetime. The and that's why that stands out to you. It's because I was at all the other things.

Nick Adams [00:09:37]:
So but I think that's just super important. You know, my daughters were in gymnastics and they were in dance and there was competitions and there were shows and I just didn't miss any of those. And I really, I think I can say that honestly, I didn't miss any of those because those are just big events for them. And and so to be supportive, nothing was more important than that. And I think what is genuinely true for me is that my favorite thing in life is being bad. Like, there's not anything I do that I get more pleasure out of than being bad. And so that I think communicates to the kids that, you know, I'm not at their ballgame because I have to be there. You know, I'm I'm there because man, I wanna see what happens.

Nick Adams [00:10:26]:
I wanna watch you play. I wanna support you. I wanna be a part of your life. And so I think there are times yeah. I had to leave for work or I wasn't there every moment of their waking hours, but I did a lot of work to make sure that they were always supported in their events. And the other thing that we did as a family, my girls and my boys are kind of different ages. I got about 10 year age span between them. So I've got 2 sets of children almost.

Nick Adams [00:10:54]:
But my with the older kids, especially, we had dinner every night as a family. And that just, there wasn't a time that didn't happen when one of my girls was doing gymnastics and she didn't get out of gym until 8:30. None of us ate until she got home 15 to 9. And that's when dinner was because that was important for us to build that kind of connection and relationship. So those are some of the ways that I think I've tried to really balance career and busy and then family.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:26]:
Now you mentioned the fact that you had you have a book that's called Being the Dad You Wish You Had, 5 Big Stones for Effective Fatherhood. And I guess, 1st and foremost, as a as someone that has written books in the past myself, I know how much time, effort, patience, and more go into the labor of love that becomes the One of the things that I've done is run some some businesses. I've run

Nick Adams [00:11:57]:
One of the things that I've done is run some some businesses. I've run businesses and nonprofits. And especially in the business community, I've got 2 construction oriented companies. And I found myself so I work predominantly with men. So I found myself pretty frequently saying to somebody, you know, they're they're a good worker. They've got pretty good skills. They just were raised by wolves. They have and what I always meant by that is they they just have no idea of how to engage with life.

Nick Adams [00:12:28]:
And although they're not really a terrible person that creates a lot of dysfunction around them because they just don't know how to live life and they didn't get what they needed as children. And I've said that through the years and I've tried to help my my employees and do different kinds of classes and just anything I can do to help kind of mentor and develop them. And so, and I don't think I've been particularly effective with any of that, but I've tried hard. And then one night we were sitting around the dining room table and we were answering conversation starters. And the conversation starter this particular night was if you could change anything in the world, what would it be? And like a bolt of lightning, I knew if I could change anything in the world, I would create effective fathers. Because if I could create effective fathers, I could change the world. And that became kind of the genesis of the book for me, is realizing that really what I wanted to do and what I believe would have the most impact of anything I could do would be to help create a situation where fathers could be more effective.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:33]:
In sharing this out into the world, I know that you drew from your own experiences, and you put those experiences into the book. What were some of the biggest takeaways that you really wanted someone to take out of reading this as you walked in? And what are you finding now that it is out in the world and people are are reading it that they are pulling out of it?

Nick Adams [00:13:56]:
Yeah. I think really one of the biggest things kind of the 2 big things that I would want people to get out of the book and they're not like written as a part of a chapter, they're kinda just, I hope it's there, is that dads are really influential. They're very powerful. Now actually that is one of the chapters, but you know, that they just have a lot of influence. And if you as a father, just focus a little, you're going to make a difference in your kid's life because you have so much ability and so much influence to bring to their lives. So that's one thing. And then the other thing that I always want dads to realize, and I've said it already today is it's not about being perfect. It's about making progress.

Nick Adams [00:14:39]:
And I think because as fathers, I think we can just get so overwhelmed and feel like I don't know what to do next. I can't tell you how many times, you know, especially when the kids were in the 11 to 15 range. I just think, I just don't know what to do next. I've tried everything I know and man, it doesn't seem to be coming out the way I'd like to see it come out. And, and some days you just think, oh, this is way harder than anybody told me it was going to be. I had no idea this is gonna be so tough. And so I think the big part of the message is just to say, it's okay. You don't have to do everything perfect.

Nick Adams [00:15:12]:
You've gotta just keep making progress in the journey, and keep making those connection points with your kids, building relationship. And you can make some pretty good size mistakes as long as you'll own your mistakes and keep connected relationally, and you're gonna keep moving forward. And so that's really why the focus on the 5 big stones because I think there's some things if you get them right, then other things will fall into place. And it's not 20 things to do to be a great dad because that's overwhelming. You know, it's kind of, here's 5 ideas, 5 mentalities, 5 things to understand that then you can incorporate into your own life to become the person you wanna be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:51]:
Now I know that you've incorporated these 5 stones into the what you've done with your own kids, your kids. And, yeah, I know your daughters have grown. They've flown. They've gone out of the nest and are out in the world doing different things at this point. Now that you're at a different phase in your fatherhood and you look back, what could you what could you have done different? Or what would you have done different now looking back? Or even looking at what you've written and what you've learned, what would you have changed?

Nick Adams [00:16:17]:
Wow. That is a great question. Looking back, I mean, I really do think what I just said is probably a big part of it. I think I would sweat less. I would worry just a little bit less and acknowledge that I'm making progress because I just feel like there's so much value in that. It it takes so much pressure off, which makes you probably more relational and and be more able to actually connect with your kids instead of being all about, you know, I gotta do this just perfect. So I think, really that's probably one of the big things I would change. Not just about painting, I'd change that about most of my life.

Nick Adams [00:16:51]:
I would go back and and just kind of relax a little bit and know that it's okay. I'm going to make mistakes and it's probably not going to be the end of the world. And then when it really is pretty seriously bad, you just own your stuff and go on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:05]:
Now we always finish our interviews with what I like to call our fatherhood 5, where I ask you 5 more questions to delve deeper into you as a dad. Are you ready?

Nick Adams [00:17:13]:
I hope so. Sounds a little scary.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:15]:
In one word, what is fatherhood?

Nick Adams [00:17:16]:
The first thing that comes to mind is relationship.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:18]:
When was the time that you finally felt like you succeeded at being a father to a daughter?

Nick Adams [00:17:23]:
I have felt that with both of my daughters, one who chose to get out of college and come and work with me on a personal you know just daily level working in the camp and working with my speaking and writing and those kinds of things. Cause to me, a big part of success is having a relationship. And so the fact that she wants to be a part of what I'm doing was very much an, there was some success here. And then my older daughter has told me that I'm one of her best friends. And that to me is success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:56]:
It definitely is. Now, if I was to talk to your daughters, how would they describe you as a dad?

Nick Adams [00:18:03]:
That would be hilarious. I'd love to let you talk to them, and then I'd like to listen. But I think one of the things I did was ask them, because I knew I was doing this podcast with you and it was about, you know, fathers and daughters. And so I asked them, what are some things that were important to you? What were things that made a difference for you? And one of the things that both of them mentioned was something I shared earlier, just that you were always at our stuff. You made being there a priority. And then one of them said, you know, you made it easy to talk to you. I always knew I could come to you and tell you things and you weren't going to go crazy and overreact and that you would be able to listen to what's happening in my life and and support me emotionally. So they told me that I don't know what they would tell you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:50]:
Now who inspires you to be a better dad?

Nick Adams [00:18:52]:
One of the people who has inspired me to be a better father. I just had the privilege of doing this funeral 3 weeks ago, but he had raised 2 of the kids that were in my youth group when I was a youth pastor long years ago. And they are now, you know, in their forties or whatever. But I just watched how effective he was with his kids. And at one point did a series of, of like small group classes on parenting. And I brought him in as the speaker and I watched his life. And so he was truly probably one of the people who I've learned the most from. His name is Paul Hively.

Nick Adams [00:19:29]:
Just you ask a name, there's your name.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:31]:
Now you've given a lot of pieces of wisdom. Some things that you've learned along the way, some things that have worked, maybe some things that didn't work. And as you think about all dads that are out there and as we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every father?

Nick Adams [00:19:45]:
I think one of the things that comes to mind today is just to acknowledge that your goal is to help parent your kids to be who they're supposed to be, Not to be who you want them to be or who you wish they would but to try to understand who they are and what their gifts are and their desires are, and then give them tools to become who they want to be instead of trying to create them and kind of the image you want them to end up as. Because really, we're not usually very effective if we're trying to create them in some image we have in our own mind as opposed to looking and seeing who they really are and then developing those gifts and talents that they have so that they can become the best version of themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]:
I really appreciate you sharing that, sharing your wisdom today with us. Now, if people wanna find out more about you and your book, where should they go?

Nick Adams [00:20:38]:
Well, they can get the book on Amazon. Just go to Amazon and search Being the Dad You Wish You Had. It's available as a digital book and as a paperback. It'll be coming out soon as a hardback and we're gonna do audio hopefully launching next month. So those are coming as well. And then you can reach me at info at being dash dad dot com. And that's also the website being dash dad dot com.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:04]:
Well, Nick, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing your own story with your daughters, and I wish you all the best.

Nick Adams [00:21:11]:
Perfect. Thank you, Christopher. It's great to be with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:13]:
The fatherhood insider is the essential resource for any dad that wants to be the best dad that he can be. We know that no child comes with an instruction manual, and most dads are figuring it out as they go along. And the fatherhood insider is full of resources and information that will up your game on fatherhood. Through our extensive course library, interactive forum, step by step roadmaps and more, you will engage and learn with experts, but more importantly, dads like you. So check it out at fathering together dot org. If you are a father of a daughter and have not yet joined the dads with daughters Facebook community, there's a link in the notes today. Dads with daughters is a program of fathering together. We look forward to having you back for another great guest next week all geared to helping you raise strong and powered daughters and be the best dad that you can be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:04]:
We're all in the same boat, and it's full of tiny screaming passengers. We spend the time, We give the lessons. We make the meals. We buy them presents and bring your a game. Because those kids are growing fast, the time goes by just like a dynamite blast, calling astronauts and firemen, carpenters, and musclemen. Get out and be the world to them. Be the best that you can be.
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Episodes

Inspiring Dads: Brent Dowlen on Purposeful Fatherhood and Overcoming Fears with Daughters

Tailoring Parenting Approaches for Each Child with Travis Hawkley

Navigating Fatherhood: Thomas Batchelor on Balancing Work, Family, and Personal Growth

Writing and Fatherhood: An Interview with Evan Porter, Author of Dad Camp

Embracing Vulnerability: Fatherhood Lessons from The Dad Bag

Building Strong Father-Daughter Bonds with Madeline Anderson

Raising Independent Women: Lessons from Kekoa and Madeline Anderson

Intentional Parenting: Jason Frishman on Equitable Fatherhood and Family Values

From Event Manager to Stay-At-Home Dad: Gerard Gousman's Parenting Journey

Faith and Family: Ryan Moore's Mission to Empower His Daughters

Embracing Emotion: Fatherhood Journeys with Demetrius and Quentarious Jones

Healing Fatherhood: David Peralta on Love, Emotional Openness, and Raising Strong Daughters

Father and Daughter Journeys: Insights from Judges Michael & Megan Cavanagh

Exploring Healthy Masculinity: A Conversation with Suraj Arshanapally

The Evolution of a Single Dad: Balancing Sacrifice, Support, and Self-Discovery

Joe Bovell's Legacy of Love and Leadership in Parenting Daughters

Doug Veal's Transition: Redefining Roles from Detective to Devoted Dad

Recognizing Dads' Role in Raising Daughters: Building Bonds and Nurturing Independence With Sarah Maconachie

Crafting Wonder in Childhood: Lessons from Gregg Behr and Mister Rogers

Effective Fatherhood: 5 Stones to Guide Your Journey with Nick Adams