Episodes
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It doesnāt matter how good your designs are if they never get built. So this episode breaks down specific tactics you can use to become a better storyteller and get people excited to build your ideas.
Michael Wandelmaier (former Head of Design at Metalab): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/michael-wandelmaier
Gavin Nelson (designing the Linear mobile app): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/gavin-nelson
Ian Wharton (storytelling coach): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/ian-wharton
Kathy Zheng (head of design at Optimism): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/kathy-zheng
Yuan Wang (head of design at Maven): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/yuan-wang
Alex Cornell (design lead for Gen AI at Meta): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/alex-cornell
Noam Segal (senior research leader): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/noam-segal
Femke (design lead at Gusto): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/femke
Gabe Valdivia (independent designer): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/gabe-valdivia
Dive is where the best designers never stop learning š¤æ š dive.club š¦ twitter.com/joindiveclub
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A little over a year ago, Joey Banks and I were DMāing each other in Slack about leaving our W-2 jobs and going independent.
So this weekās episode is a reflection on his journey working for himself and itās as human and relatable as any conversation Iāve ever had on this show. We go deep into:
Managing your pipeline of clientsCreating a personal knowledge system in NotionFinding companionship as an independent designerStructuring your schedule and maintaining momentumCommunicating your services and pricing yourself effectivelyDealing with uncertainty and all of the unknowns in your first yeara lot moreGet a special offer on Joeyās āLevel Up with Figmaā courseJoeyās Baseline website and newsletterPaul Millerdās āPathless Pathā book and his episode on Lennyās podcastJoey mentioned Oliurās episode as one of his favorite YouTube creatorsHe also mentioned Stephen Robles YouTube channel -
Episodes manquant?
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The pendulum has swung too far with design systems. Somehow theyāve become synonymous with scale. But I believe theyāre the perfect first step for startups. So this episode looks at stories from Perplexity and Cron to reframe design systems as the key to speed in the early days.
Henry Modisett (Head of Design at Perplexity): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/henry-modisett
Raphael Schaad (founder of Cron / Notion Calendar): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/raphael-schaad
Brad Frost (author of Atomic Design): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/brad-frost
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After writing a viral article called āThe Missing Toolā I was fortunate to meet Gab and Nim who are the co-founders of a startup called Dessn.
Dessn is a new way to ship design changes without having to write code. Their extension overlays a Figma-like interface on your live web app so designers can easily make changes. Their AI then writes the code and pushes it to your Github. That means designers can now contribute directly to production.
Over the last few months weāve had regular jam sessions about the future of design tooling, how AI impacts software creation, and everything in betweenā¦
These jam sessions have been some of the most inspiring conversations Iāve had this year. So this weekās episode is a way to loop you in on some of those conversations. We go deep into:
The future of design systems with AICrafting a product strategy in todayās landscapeNavigating the idea maze as an early stage founderWhat it means to have an āAI nativeā product strategyHow the flattening of the talent stack impacts designersWhy Nim was so inspired by the head of design at UnsplashWhat ātasteā looks like when operating as a creative directora lot moreCheck out the Dessn websiteNim mentioned V0.dev as a way to create software (also might like Meng Toās recent episode)The short story Library of BabelStudio Ghibli animation studiosGraza olive oil as an example of what a strong brand looks like in a commoditized product line -
Over the last few months, Iāve interviewed the people designing cutting edge AI products like Perplexity, Claude, Dot, Humane, Visual Electric, and moreā¦
During that time Iāve created a running list of all the metaphors and mental models theyāve used to explain what itās like.
So this episode breaks down 7 mental models for designing AI products.
Maggie Appleton (Design engineer at Normally): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/maggie-appleton
Henry Modisett (Head of Design at Perplexity): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/henry-modisett Joel Lewenstein (Head of Product Design at Anthropic): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/joel-lewenstein George Kedenburg III (Designer at Humane): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/george-kedenburg-iii Colin Dunn (Co-founder of Visual Electric): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/colin-dunn Jason Yuan (Co-founder of Dot): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/jason-yuan
Chapters 0:00 AI as an organism we grew 1:49 AI as the middle of a field 6:24 AI as a chef in a kitchen 7:37 AI as a new child 8:42 AI as a new material 10:20 AI as the meat of our design deliverable 12:11 AI as electricity
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One of the most impressive things Iāve seen a designer make all year is Meng Toās Dreamcut.
Itās the perfect example of what it looks like to transition from traditional designer to builder šŖ So if youāre interested in becoming a designer who ships then this is the episode for you.
Meng gives a highly practical breakdown of what it looks like to go from 0 to 50,000+ lines of code as a designer. And Meng is the perfect person to onboard you into tools like Claude and Cursor because heās spent 10+ years teaching designers how to code through Design+Code. So in this episode we go deep into:
Mengās tech stack and go-to AI toolsHow to fine-tune visual details in codeThe secret to an effective first 10 promptsHow to find the perfect first project to buildHow much code you need to know to build with AIWhat parts were easier/harder than Meng expectedWhy Meng considers Claude the newest design toola lot moreā¦Meng uses Claude + Cursor to build his ideasMengās original .svg pattern product that he build to get startedMengās new Dream Cut editorMeng previously used Screen Studio (which is awesome), CapCut, and Eleven Labs for videosAI typically uses TailwindCSS (Meng also mentioned the Shadcn component library)Meng also mentioned V0 and Bolt as alternatives to ClaudeScratch is visual programming for kids -
Airbnb is making 3 big design investments to bring soul back to the app. So this episode pulls from interviews with their VP of Design, Teo Connor, and prototyping specialist Janum Trivedi. Learn why Airbnb is investing in 3D, motion design, and leaders who still have their hands in the clay.
Teo Connor (VP of Design at Airbnb): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/air-bnb
Alex Schleifer (former Chief Design Offer at Airbnb): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/alex-schleifer
Janum Trivedi (prototyping specialist at Airbnb): https://www.dive.club/deep-dives/janum-trivedi
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As soon as I finished our original interview, I knew I had to have Soleio on as the first repeat guest. He led early design efforts at Facebook and Dropbox. Now he invests in design-driven startups like Figma, Framer, Vercel, etc.
So this weekās episode is all about how designers and startups can succeed in a world where everything is changing. We go deep into:
Ideal traits for a founding designerHow startups can strategically attack incumbentsWhy the future belongs to designers who can shipThe backstory behind Soleioās investment in PerplexityA potential future where one designer can service 5+ startupsWhat you can do to invest in your future founder journey todayHow Soleio approaches the design tooling space as an investorWhy we wonāt use smartphones the same way 5 years from nowa lot moreSoleioās first episodeMeng Toās video editing product (episode coming soon)Granola (Sam and Chris are the founders)Interview with Perplexityās head of design (Henry Modisett)Pattern Breakers by Mike Maples, JrChapters 0:00 Intro 1:32 Designers who can ship 11:18 Dealing with the velocity of tech as an investor 13:27 The importance of brand for startups 18:00 Why Soleio beleives we won't be using smartphones the same way in 5 years 34:23 Qualities that Soleio looks for in first-time founders 36:58 How to succeed as a founding designer 44:53 Founders living in the future 55:05 How to invest in your future founder journey today
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This weekās episode is with Joel Lewenstein who is the Head of Product Design at Anthropic where he works on cutting edge AI products like Claude. After 80+ episodes, I can honestly say this oneās ājuice per minuteā score is off the charts.
Some of my favorite highlights:
How the team prototyped Claude ArtifactsNew mental models for designing AI productsThe way designers shape strategy at AnthropicHow to master the dark art of prompting as a designerThe future of language as the dominant interface for AIDesigning for infinite degrees of freedom vs. user journeysHow Joel designed his interview process at Airtable/Anthropica lot moreā¦The CEO of Anthropic (Dario Amodei)ās essay: Machines of Loving GraceA new 3 minute video showing how the team built Claude ArtifactsChad Thornton was the Head of Design at AirtableEverett Katigbak is the Brand Creative Director at AnthropicKim Bost is the design leader Joel collaborates with a lotJoel mentioned Jason Yuanās interview about designing AI products with soul -
Airbnb is one of the truly iconic design-driven companies. They set the bar for design innovation in so many ways. So this weekās episode is a deep dive with their VP of Design, Teo Connor.
She gives us a behind-the-scenes look at how design operates at Airbnb including:
How Airbnb is bringing vitality to the visual languageHow Airbnb is empowering designers to be designersHow to succeed in a design review with Brian CheskyWhy itās not enough to think in terms of flows and screensWhy Airbnb is updating their design system to use more 3DHow they redesigned the checkout and welcome experienceWhy Airbnb has prioritized prototyping in code earlier in the processa lot more -
Imagine your first traditional āproduct designā job is designing the Snapchat messaging UX for millions of people across the globeā¦
Well thatās what Dan Morenoās journey looked like as an engineer turned designer.
So this weekās episode is a deep dive into his 5+ years designing Snapchat as well as his new role at a rocket ship startup called Captions.
Some highlights:
Danās formula for presenting design ideasHow Dan grew his visual skills as an engineerInside look at the AR exploration team at SnapchatHow to get the CEO of Snap excited about your ideaWhy designing at a startup brings more responsibilityHow Dan rethought what Snapchat messaging could bea lot moreSnapās Lens StudioAndrew McPhee (Danās first manager at Snap)Gaurav Misra (founder of Captions)Pop a component plugin for Figma -
I remember the exact moment where I first explored MercuryOS. It was clear Jason Yuan was one of the most skilled design thinkers I'd ever encountered. No wonder he landed a role designing AI products at Apple shortly after.
But the main reason I wanted to interview him was to learn more about his new product called Dot. It's by far my favorite personal AI and a beautifully designed experience. So this conversation is a behind-the-scenes of his latest journey and a fun glimpse at what the future might hold for software products. We go deep into:
What it looks like to design with soulWhat makes Jasonās design process uniqueWhy Jason left Apple to build New ComputerHow Dot is the spiritual successor to MercuryOSHow more designers need to become AI engineersWhy Jason thinks dynamic interfaces are over-hypedHow to design a product based on one magical interactionWhat Jason learned about storytelling from his background in theatrea lot moreDownload Dot or check out the websiteJason's original MercuryOS projectThe original Dot website featuring Meiās story (from the Wayback machine so give it a minute to load)Jason references Shigeru Miyamoto (the creator of Super Mario Bros) -
Mariana Castilho has one of the most impressive career trajectories of any designer Iāve ever met.
I first saw her while mentoring through Shift Nudge and within a few years sheās landed roles at Universe, Vercel, and most recently as the first designer at Pierre.
One of the keys to her growth has been investing in her skills as an engineer. So a big part of this interview is learning what it takes to transition from designer to builder.
Some highlights:
The future of design engineeringWhat makes designing dev tools uniqueHow Mariana has grown as a visual designerWhat itās like working with design celebritiesWhat it means to care deeply about implementationHow she finally succeeded her 3rd time learning to codeHow teams like Vercel consistently hit a high bar for crafta lot moreSave $200 and join me in enrolling for UI Engineering 101 for designersMarianaās component library UI LabsMariana led the original design for v0 by VercelVercelās Geist Design System -
This weekās episode is with Janum Trivedi who makes some of the most stunning prototypes in all of design. So the main goal of this conversation is to answer the question āwhat makes a piece of software feel great?ā
Some of the key talking points:
The 3 levels of animationShipping a major refresh of the Netflix iOS appWhy shaders are a big deal (and how they work)How Janum built the download animation for ArcWhy Janum built his own animation engine (Wave)Learning the principles of fluid design working on the iPad pointera lot moreCheck out Janumās demos on his website2018 WWDC talk āDesigning fluid interfacesāThe Book of Shaders websiteDisneyās 12 principles of animation -
Ben Blumenrose was one of the earliest designers at Facebook and has spent the last 12 years as a co-founder and Managing Partner of Designer Fund. Thatās allowed him to invest in many of the design founders that youāve heard from on this shown (like Jorn from Framer or Colin from Visual Electric).
So the goal of this conversation is to tap into Benās perspective as a designer turned investor. This episode creates a blueprint for people interested in designing for startups or maybe even building a company of your own.
Some highlights:
The story of investing in FramerHow second-time founders think differentlyUnderstanding your gaps as a design founderWhat it looks like to truly act as an owner at a startupWhat Ben looks for when investing in design foundersWhat types of market opportunities Ben is most excited aboutHow Ben transformed customer support in his first month at FBThe things you should be learning on the job before launching a startupa lot moreApply for the Designer Fund Partnership program
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Imagine leading the design of an AI product that skyrockets to a billion+ dollar valuation in under two yearsā¦
Thatās the story of Perplexity and today we get to hear from their founding designer and current Head of Design, Henry Modisett. Some of the highlights from this conversation:
What it takes to thrive as a founding designerWhy Henry likes hiring designers who can codeThe challenges of designing dynamic interfacesWhy Henry didnāt want to anthropomorphize the AIThe initial creative direction for the Perplexity brandThe keys to making a consumer product cognitively fastWhy Henry built a mini design system as his very first stepa lot moreSHOW NOTES
Ivan (CEO of Notion)ās tweet about not having a design systemPerplexityās incredible brand designer named PhiWe talked about how booking.com is a masterclass in optimizing UIKEY TAKEAWAYS
Starting with a design system
Before Henry had any idea what the Perplexity product would become, he built a component system in React as the first step. The goal was to give himself a toolbox to make it easy to assemble new features. Many components are obvious (ex: you know youāll need a grid, type system, color system, buttons, etc.). We donāt have to overcomplicate design systems. Theyāre the thing you invest in to move fastā¦ not the thing you invest in once you have most of the interface figured out.
Empowerment through code
When you write code, you develop a stronger emotional attachment to the product. Youāre also empowered to continually make improvements without having to go through engineers. The more removed you are from what ships, the easier it is to dish blame on someone else for an experience being janky.
āHaving designers that can code is a hackā¦quality just happensā
Velocity is everything
Henry makes a point to prioritize velocity over exploration, debate, visual design, etc. And a big part of what makes that possible is empowering designers to make decisions. If itās a UX question, the designer needs to make a call (āgo with your gut and if you want to change it later you canā). This is also why having designers who can code is key. Nothing is cemented. You donāt need permission to iterate after something ships.
Dynamic UI systems
At the root of Perplexity are UI systems that display dynamic content based on what the user searches. That means as a designer you canāt possibly mock up all use cases. You have to think about interfaces as slightly abstracted (ex: āentity comparisonā which can work for comparing dog breeds, restaurants, etc.). Part of designing a dynamic system is you have to be ok with percentage outcomes. Sometimes the formatting isnāt going to be perfect.
Youāre designing the system, giving AI the tools to use, and hoping that it works most of the time.
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This week's episode is with Ryan Scott who was an early designer at Doordash and then spent years as a design lead at Airbnb. Nowadays Ryan teaches hundreds of designers ranging from seniors to VPs how to make a bigger impact at your company.
This episode is jam-packed with insights about:
What itās like presenting at Airbnb CRITWays to unlock your credibility as a designerHow to mitigate risk when presenting your ideasWhat it takes to speak the language of the businessTypes of āPM-yā questions that designers should be askingHow Ryan led a massive redesign of the Airbnb booking flowThe right (and wrong) way to make a case for investing in UX debtHow to talk about your work in a way that resonates with non-designersa lot moreGet $100 off of Ryanās course āDescribing the ROI of designāRyanās case study on redesigning the Airbnb checkout flowPast interview with Alex Schleifer (Chief Design Officer at Airbnb) -
Investing in my personal brand has been the best investment Iāve ever made in my career. So I wanted to find the perfect designer to give a personal branding masterclass and I think itās Oliur.
Heās built a massive audience across YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, etc. and he shares his hard-earned knowledge in this episode:
Oliurās keys to growing on social mediaDifferent ways to create leverage in your careerHow he (accidentally) landed a billion-dollar clientHow you can get more confident putting yourself out thereSpecific ways to build meaningful connections with other designersWhat designers need to know to get better at marketing themselvesa lot moreOliur cites James McDonald as an example of someone sharing their workOliurās iPhone presets and high income streams videosWe talk about his friend Ali Abdaal (YouTuber, Podcaster, NYT bestseller)Jason Levinās iMessage screenshot of Travis Scott performingI referenced Jack Butcherās āthis is pointlessā graphDan Pettyās āThat Marker PackāThe old Audience Building course on Maven (RIP)Turkish designer Oguz (Oliur talked about the power of his aesthetic)Gabe Valdiviaās new app Almanac that he built with Cursor -
This weekās episode is with Maheen Sohail who is a senior staff designer working on generative at Meta. She joined as one of the earliest designers on both the VR and AI teams, so a big part of this discussion is about navigating ambiguity when thereās no clear playbook to follow.
We go deep into:
New types of interface patterns for AIThe unique ways she thinks about prototypingEthical considerations when designing AI produdctsHow Maheen explores AI models through side projectsWhy the goal posts for what it means to be a designer are shiftinga lot moreā KEY TAKEAWAYS
Nobody knows what theyāre doing
This is especially true when youāre designing products for emerging technologies like AI. Itās easy to look at people working on these AI-native products and assume they have it all figured outā¦ but weāre all still learning and exploring whatās possible. This came up in George Kedenburgās episode too.
Curiosity > everything
I asked Maheen what traits are more important than curiosity for people interested in designing AI products. Her answer? Nothing.
The importance of passion projects
Thereās a trend Iām noticing in these interviewsā¦ the designers who are creating cutting edge use cases for AI are the ones actively exploring the technology with side projects. Reading essays isnāt the way to learn. You have to want something to exist in the world and use that as a reason to figure out whatās possible. For Maheen it was using AI models to colorize images of Pakistan. For Nate Parrott it was using AI to hallucinate in HTML.
Maheen references Alex Cornellās storytelling abilitiesMaheenās demo for animating drawings (itās very fun)We referenced Colin Dunnās episode about the importance of naming in AI productsMaheenās colorized photos of PakistanMaheenās FakeID podcastMetaās AI releaseMaheen raved about the Rosebud journalling app -
After 8 years designing at Meta, George Kedenburg III pulled a 180 and joined Humane as a design lead. So this conversation is a deep dive into designing AI products and how the role of product designer evolves in an AI-native company:
How to become a creative problem solverHow George navigates ambiguity at HumaneWhy thereās no such thing as an edge case with AIWhat George learned while using AI to learn PythonHow AI is reshaping the landscape for software designWhy George created a Slackbot to prototype his ideasWhy designing AI products is a bit like designing a kitchena lot morePushing past the pixels
The real value of design is being able to look at an ambiguous situation and understand what you should explore.
Rectangles so happen to be the most common way to express that value. But the real skill is creative problem solving.
Working at a company like Humane forces designers to contribute design thinking beyond the pixels.
Prompt design > prompt engineering
If the AI model is a chef, then youāre responsible for designing the kitchen.
You donāt know what the user will order, so itās a lot of trial and error to ensure you have the right data on hand at the right moments.
Itās no different than thinking through drop-off in an onboarding flow. Which is why George views working with these models as āprompt designā rather than āprompt engineeringā
There are no AI edge cases
When youāre prototyping AI products, your prototypes donāt ābreakā or āfall overā like they do in Figma. Thatās because the boundaries of what exists in the prototype become much blurrier.
Instead of designing contained flows, youāre laying a foundation and allowing the model to extrapolate out from there. There are no more hard edges.
George mentions Claude Artifacts as an example of someone putting the pieces together in the right order
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