Episodes
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Episode 123
This conversation was recorded at the Sinai and Synapses alumni gathering in November 2023. In it, we talk with Dr. Muhammad Aurangzeb Ahmad about the ethics of AI in Islam, the future of human-computer interaction, and the ethics of bringing a form of consciousness back to life.
Muhammad Aurangzeb Ahmad is a Research Scientist at University of Washington’s Harborview Medical Center and an Affiliate Assistant Professor in the Department of Computer Science at University of Washington Bothell. His research focuses on algorithmic nudging at scale, simulation modeling for machine learning, Responsible AI, and personality emulation. He has had academic appointments at University of Washington, Center for Cognitive Science at University of Minnesota, Minnesota Population Center, and the Indian Institute of Technology at Kanpur. Muhammad also has worked in applied AI in industry for several startups and advisor to various governmental bodies. He has a PhD in Computer Science from the University of Minnesota.
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More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 122
Today we are joined by author, speaker, and podcaster Rob Bell to talk about his new novel "Where'd You Park Your Spaceship". We talk about delighting in our work, a faith that could survive the end of the world, and how a book about spaceships and distant planets has more to do with what it means to be human than anything he's written before.
Rob Bell is the New York Times Bestselling author of fourteen books and plays which have been translated into 25 languages. His visual art can be seen on Instagram @realrobbell, his band is HUMANS ON THE FLOOR, and his podcast is called The RobCast. Rob lives with his family in Ojai, California.
https://robbell.com/
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
Transcript (AI Generated)Zack Jackson (00:22.558)Our guest today is the bestselling author of 14 books and plays, international speaker and host of the Robcast.
orb (00:30.161)Okay.
Zack Jackson (00:46.582)He lives in Ojai, California, where he hosts two-day small group gatherings, that which you can and should sign up for right now. Link in the description. It is my pleasure and honor to welcome Rob Bell to this podcast. Hey, Rob.
Ian Binns (01:02.341)Hey Rob.
orb (01:02.45)Hello, fellas. Thanks for having me on.
Zack Jackson (01:05.322)Oh, thanks for spending your morning with us. So I have in my hand this very, um, strange and wonderful novel called where'd you park your spaceship? Which even I know the title still to this day brings a smile to your face. Um, the book starts with the line.
Ian Binns (01:08.122)Yeah.
orb (01:27.205)just to hear you say it, just to hear you say it.
Ian Binns (01:30.62)I loved it.
Zack Jackson (01:32.21)So the first line in the book is, the earth didn't make it, it got brown balled. Which in total caps, brown balled. Then we meet characters named Heen Grubears, Moogie Fallers and Sir Pong. There's a family game like two pages in where you intentionally slam your head into a fork. And then without any explanation, we have a sentence that says,
We took her to the Thrival in our circle that night. So from like the very beginning of this book, I got the feeling that this wasn't going to be a book about a carefully crafted universe or a book about like a message being hammered on over and over again. This was not a carefully crafted universe. This was a novel just stuffed to the brim with delight.
Like your absolute delight in your characters, in their alien world, it just comes through so clearly. Can you maybe just tell us a little bit about your relationship to the story and to the people who live in here?
orb (02:45.69)What a wonderful setup slash question. Yeah, and honestly.
Zack Jackson (02:48.226)Ha ha ha.
orb (02:54.101)All I had was delight. I don't have training as a writer. I don't have a background. I haven't really read science fiction. I guess Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I don't, other than that, I like, all there was, and my work for roughly 30 years has been explaining. That's what like a spiritual teacher does, which is a very particular engagement of the mind.
And I had some sense that something was ending, something I'd been doing. It was like an achy, angsty, like a death feeling, like a cellular death. Like you've been doing a thing and it's coming to an end. Don't numb the pain, just let it die. And this story came roaring in. And the only way it worked was what happens next. Like a very innocent, tender, who appears? What are they wearing? What's their name?
and that explaining energy. Well, obviously, if you watch a movie and it's clear what the point of the movie is, you're like, ugh, we say heavy-handed, on the nose. You know what I mean? We're out. So it was like taking all of these muscles that I've built up over the years. Like a number of my earlier books, like Love Wins is a thesis. It's an argument. It's a like point A, point B, point C. This relates to this.
Zack Jackson (04:07.138)Oh yeah.
Zack Jackson (04:17.613)Mm.
orb (04:21.905)Here's what I just told you. Here's another example of what I just told you. And this, the delight that you're describing, this was like, all of that was like a kill switch. If any of that earlier musculature was engaged, then immediately it's like crimping a garden hose. No water could come through. It only worked with like, or like the scene where Nune gives her bread is magic speech in the ravine. I was.
Zack Jackson (04:33.493)Mm.
Zack Jackson (04:44.413)interesting.
Zack Jackson (04:49.78)Mm-hmm.
orb (04:50.633)in the ravine for like three or four days. Kind of knowing she was going to do something spectacular and he was going to be like, oh my god, what did I just witness? But also not knowing how. So it was like this surreal, almost like a fugue or a trance. Like I, I am creating this and I don't know what's going to happen next.
Zack Jackson (05:18.526)Yeah, it's like in that scene, you do something that you do a lot in this book, which is like, you present a situation like, Oh, so-and-so has to pick so-and-so to do this demonstration, who are they going to pick? And then they pick the person and you're just like, of course they picked them because this, that, and the other, but you don't explain the, the intricate backstory behind why everything happens. You're just like, well, of course it happened that way.
orb (05:31.824)Yes!
orb (05:35.557)Nixie flugers! Ugh.
Ian Binns (05:38.492)Thanks for watching!
Zack Jackson (05:44.67)And after that happened, like three times I was on board and I was like, well, yeah, of course that happened that way. I don't need a big explanation. There's something happening right now. Let's, let's see this thing that's happening right now. Acknowledge the complexity around it and just look at it.
orb (05:57.133)And like, oh, and that scene when, when Nuneye then has the guy that she picks, picks somebody and he picks, who does he pick? He picks Kixie Flugers. Oh my God, picks you, and it's like scandal. The whole school erupts. And then Heen is like, this is obviously a big deal. And then Lines says to Heen's, oh my God, Kixie Flugers used to be with him, but then she was dating so-and-so. And he gives like classic universal high school drama. And
you're on another planet that you've just made up sometime in the future and yet god dune picks kixi flugers and kixi flugers looks like a kixi flugers would look like it's just it's just the absurdity of it oh god it's just so enjoyable
Zack Jackson (06:35.566)Clearly, right?
Zack Jackson (06:44.957)That definitely came across.
Ian Binns (06:47.524)Um, one thing I want to just say, Zach will tell you, I'm the, you know, I'm definitely the, the cohost on the show that just goes off on tangents, but you always say there are no tangents. And I, I actually, uh, have that as like a banner on my computer. Cause I love that phrase, but, um, so I. Then working on this huge grant proposal, do all these different things. And so I had a hard time sitting down to read it. And then it was.
orb (06:58.377)There are no, yeah, right.
orb (07:03.485)Hahaha
Ian Binns (07:13.912)And we knew this was coming up and then Zach said, well, good news for you. And then I got your email that the audio version just got released and I, I paid for the Kindle version of the book. And so I, you know, got the audio, um, the audio version of it. And I love the fact that you read it, um, and synced it all up. And so I was telling Zach right before he came on that, you know, I was maybe a hundred pages then when I started listening and, and then I thought, you know, I really want to hear Rob say Brown bald.
So I went all the way back to the beginning and restarted the whole book, just so I could experience that. And I think that really connects because you had an episode, you released an episode recently for your own podcast, keep the tears in, or do I keep the tears or something? I can't leave the tears in. And I had not gotten to that part of the book yet. I was right before it, didn't really give anything away. So I was good with that.
Zack Jackson (07:44.931)Yes.
orb (08:01.774)Oh yeah, leave the tears in? Yeah.
Ian Binns (08:13.228)Um, but what I loved about that episode, and it's funny cause I, you know, highlighted all throughout the book, made all these little annotations and notes. Many of the notes that I made was I love that you're laughing while reading this. I love that your emotions are coming out. It's, I mean, it connected me more to the book and the characters than I think listen to it regularly. And then you release that episode and talked about your experiences in the past and then experience with this one.
orb (08:31.159)Mmm. Mm-hmm.
orb (08:37.346)Mm-hmm.
Ian Binns (08:40.984)I know you talked about maybe a little bit in the episode, but how did it feel just letting you be you while reading your work?
orb (08:50.745)like a rebirth, like the other work that I've gotten to do over the years was like a warm-up. When I first had written this and knew no publisher is gonna want this, no one may ever read it, but I shared it with a couple friends and like one friend was like, this is what it's actually like to be your friend. I was like, are you kidding? I was so...
Ian Binns (08:52.632)Yeah? Can you explain more?
Ian Binns (09:00.794)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (09:06.478)the
Ian Binns (09:13.177)Yeah.
orb (09:21.069)it disruptive in the very best way, because I had some sense like, why does, how am I, however old I was at the time, 51, and what is age? But how do I feel like I'm, this feels, yeah, it had some like coming home feeling. And even publishing, like classic New York publishing, there are,
Zack Jackson (09:40.279)Hmm.
Ian Binns (09:40.388)Yeah. Well, go ahead.
orb (09:49.845)which was very good to me. And yet some sense like right away with the book, I was like, if I take this into a publisher, they're gonna be like, yeah, this isn't a Rob Bell book. I remember thinking, but I'm Rob Bell. So I distinctly remember thinking, oh my God, if you'll have to just do this on your own and it'll probably cost. And so it became like a rearranging my life. Like.
Zack Jackson (10:00.517)Hahaha!
orb (10:17.765)Hence, I'm like in the corner of a garage, like starting over. And then, oh yeah, I'll have to just make the audio book myself, but each step of like, this could really not work, no one may care, became oddly like a blinking green light. Like, are you okay following what feels like an even deeper level of self?
Ian Binns (10:36.837)Yeah.
orb (10:46.713)even if it means you like are some guy who lost the plot and he's in a garage in Ojai talking about spaceships. But then I would share it with friends. Literally there are friends who are like, I just read the draft of this thing you sent me. It gave me a couple of days to recover because it affected me so deeply. It's the most personal thing you've ever done. And I'd be like, what is, what? So it just like the Tao Te Ching, unknowing, knowing and unknowing. It had a very Zen like.
Ian Binns (10:53.613)Yeah.
Ian Binns (11:12.475)Yeah.
orb (11:16.357)Rob Bell, you know nothing about how everything works. And especially the work for years was like right down the middle. This is what I'm saying, this is what I just said. This is an example of it. And this is every single interaction about this story is like people like, yeah, my mom died three years ago. I'm trying to like the most personal, it was like instantly I was talking, we were connecting on some,
Ian Binns (11:27.696)Mm-hmm.
orb (11:45.633)other level, you know what I mean? Which was like, I obviously people know about this with fiction and literature for thousands of years, but for me, you're right. Some discovery of some self, like some more, I don't know how you even say it, because we're all just sort of step by step by step.
Ian Binns (11:47.076)Yeah, yeah.
Zack Jackson (11:47.543)Yeah.
Ian Binns (12:02.532)Well, and I loved the fact, you know, as I said, you know, I was already connecting with the story and the characters, but then hearing you read it. So the, one of the reasons why I love listening to your podcast is because I feel, I feel like you always start off with hello friends. And then when you name the title, you usually laugh and you always talk about the importance of laughing. And, and so I feel like we're, it's a connection, right? That you're developed because you're being who I assume is you. Um, you're being very personable. Um,
orb (12:26.733)Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ian Binns (12:32.22)You know, I've sat in on several of your classes throughout the pandemic. These are online. It, I got the same feeling. And then when reading this, it just, it was like a very long or multiple podcast episodes, and you just sounded like you were really enjoying yourself.
orb (12:39.387)Mm-hmm.
orb (12:44.424)Yeah.
really enjoying myself. And even when I started thinking, because I would come in at the end of the day when I was writing and say to Kristen, like, this is what Dill Tud did today. She'd be like, and she would just say, my God, you just love to talk about your characters. And honestly, other books was like, the book goes out, you do some interviews, quote unquote promotion, and then onto the next thing. It was like a window of time where you're out, whatever touring, and this was like.
Oh, wait, if I actually released this, I would talk about this for the rest of my life. It was like, so yeah, very personal. Like, oh no, I would be doing this. This is like the most enjoyable thing I could think of. Talking to you guys is like, oh my God, we're gonna have another discussion about where'd you park your spaceship? I'm so excited. So it jumbled, like even if you think about like, free market economics, if you make something that you gotta go out and hustle.
Ian Binns (13:22.426)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (13:36.659)Yeah. If I.
orb (13:44.473)it like just obliterated even that stuff. Or recording the audio book like didn't be, you know, another platform, another, it became like, oh my God, that would be so fun to like read it and like turn the pages like I'm just reading it to you. Cause when I am writing a book in this book, I would call friends and read them scenes without them having any context for the story. I'd give them like 10 seconds of context and then just read them.
Zack Jackson (13:44.632)Hmm.
Ian Binns (14:08.464)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (14:08.567)Hmm
orb (14:11.717)the first time that Dill Todd walks up and talks to Heen. Cause I knew if this scene, but like I remember multiple scenes where I would have them, I would read it to somebody, I'd call a friend and just be like, Hey, can I read you this scene? And almost like if the scene works with absolutely no context, and I was like, Oh, we're onto something. It's good, but very personal. So if you feel that in the audio book,
Ian Binns (14:16.048)which I thought was great by the way.
Ian Binns (14:36.696)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (14:36.814)Hmm.
orb (14:41.469)That delights me because that's actually what it's felt like.
Ian Binns (14:46.436)Well, and if I can, I know Zach, you wanted to say something, but I told Zach this too. Well, you know, over the last couple of weeks. So, um, I had to, uh, I was doing a lot of pickup. My, my son goes to a school that's a Mandarin language immersion program. And so he, we have taken him to a hub stop and pick him up from there. And so I was constantly listening to it in the car and he's, he's 13, I have 13 year old boy, girl twins. And so he would get in, you know, I'd take him to the bus in the morning.
Zack Jackson (14:47.02)Yeah.
Ian Binns (15:13.912)And he would listen to it with me and then I would listen to it some throughout the day. Uh, and then when I'd pick him up, he would come in and then all of a sudden, yeah, he's like, okay, so wait, dad, what's going on now? Um, but I had to keep moving forward to get it done. And so finally I just said, it's like, okay, buddy, I need to give you the book. You need to listen to it and read it, you know, and hopefully he will, but he, he was really getting into it. And every time you would laugh or someone that I'm like, did you hear him laugh? That's great. Isn't it? So.
orb (15:20.401)He's missed some of that. He's missed it.
Zack Jackson (15:25.879)Ha ha ha.
orb (15:42.137)And you're like, your son's like, can you, can you just rewind to when I got out of the car for school? And you're like, no, no. I mean, I love you. Right. I love you, but not that much. Like I gotta know what happens next. I'm not going to, I already know that part.
Ian Binns (15:45.388)Yeah. No, I I'm preparing to talk to him. Yeah. Yeah, so is neat. I mean he and he I love that it he connected with it as well. I thought it was really neat.
Zack Jackson (15:58.316)Right.
Zack Jackson (16:03.842)Well, I mean, every single part of this, the plot of this book is laid out on the back of the book, but you just have no idea what any of those words mean until you read the book.
orb (16:12.201)Good, good, good. I love the idea of laying out the whole thing right before you, the whole where it's headed, in such a way that it's even more mystery. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (16:26.506)Right? Like I read the back and then Nunez shows up and he learns that she's assigned seven sent to Ferdus to do a graining. And I'm like, well, I don't know what that means, but three quarters of the way through the book. I was like, oh yeah, that was on the back of the book. I get it now.
orb (16:32.357)Yeah, good, good. Just word salad. I was like just.
orb (16:42.277)Yes, so like there's a words, there's a, there's a word salad thing you can do that is, oh, you want a description on the back of the book? It's almost like a spoof of a description on the back of the book. Okay, I'll give you a detailed description of what happens in this book. You know, almost like, like a wink to the publishing world. It's like, you gotta give them a full, you know, like the Instagram video, you gotta hook them in the first three seconds. It's like a, all these conventional wisdom rules. They're like, okay.
Zack Jackson (16:55.79)Hmm.
Zack Jackson (17:01.486)Thanks for watching!
Zack Jackson (17:08.178)Mm-hmm.
orb (17:12.865)Okay, I could do the rule, but I'm going to do it so over the top, but it's like laughing at it. It's memeing itself.
Zack Jackson (17:20.382)Oh, it's so, it's so, I mean, you say you've read Douglas Adams and that comes through so much. It's like, I'm reading this book and I'm thinking like, this is the sort of flippant irreverent hilarity of, of like Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. But with like that sort of laser focused, this is what it means to be human of C.S. Lewis. You know, when you're reading one of his allegorical stories.
orb (17:26.054)I'm sorry.
orb (17:44.041)Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Zack Jackson (17:47.178)And you're like, Oh yeah, I am a demon. You're right. Not really, but you know, I, I also say those things. I definitely that definitely came through.
orb (17:47.342)Mmm.
Ian Binns (17:50.524)Hehehe
orb (17:53.401)Yeah, wow. Wow. That's fascinating.
Ian Binns (17:58.968)And see, I didn't... Go ahead.
Zack Jackson (17:59.234)So can I make an observation? Okay. And then you can tell me if I'm totally off because you said a little bit before that people would tell you this is the most Rob Bell we've ever read. This is just coming through so naturally. This feels like a new thing. But when I look at the books you've put out at least, there seems to be a kind of trajectory to it where your pastoral works are these short books that
wrestle with a topic creatively and with fun images that are easy to preach, but they very much feel like sermon series. And then that goes on until you wrote, what is the Bible, which feels like you're letting us in on the like the mechanics of how you read the Bible and all of the things that grounded your previous works. Now you've given us the tools to do that too. And then you wrote everything is spiritual, which is that but for the soul.
orb (18:47.567)Mmm.
Zack Jackson (18:58.826)Here is the kind of the magnum opus of what it means to be all the work I've done. So I feel like if you read what is the Bible and everything is spiritual, it's almost like an accidental discipleship where now you can now read the world the way Rob Bell reads the world. You don't need me to write these little pastoral books anymore. Now I'm free to go on and explore this other more.
orb (19:00.165)Wow!
orb (19:24.882)Mmm.
Zack Jackson (19:25.538)fictional world. I don't want to call it allegorical because I know it's not, this isn't Pilgrim's Progress or anything. But it almost felt like you were freeing yourself by giving us the tools to do the things that Rob Bell did in the world for so long.
orb (19:30.953)Oh yeah, that's a really...
orb (19:40.989)Well, it's so interesting that you say that because like I came, I was, I was born and raised in this particular Christian tradition that was called itself evangelical, which meant Protestant, which Protestant is like, how do we change the world? A guy nailed a bunch of theses to a door in Germany. Like how do you deal with the pain of the world? Think and.
Zack Jackson (20:03.174)No.
orb (20:08.729)stuff. And at some level, it's like a disembodied propositions, get them right in your head, get the furniture arranged right in your head, and then you're good. And at some level, I can see a long, slow learning to be in my body. I mean, I remember in my early 20s, discovering that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, being like, wait a second.
Zack Jackson (20:09.954)Yeah, thinking stuff.
orb (20:37.937)Like he's actually talking about economics. Everything is economics and politics and social fabric and safety net and how you relate to the currency of the empire. So that's really interesting what you just outlined is it started with like almost like standing there telling people stuff and then it just keeps sinking more and more incarnation, more and more body until we're like, well, here's how you can read that and then it becomes
Ian Binns (20:38.917)Yeah
orb (21:07.569)Here's the events in this body that shaped me. And then at some point you toss out, we don't even have to do concepts anymore. We can just go right to worlds. I just picture it just like just sinking more and more and more and more into body until there's no propositions left because it's just written, like written on the heart essentially.
Zack Jackson (21:20.718)Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (21:32.35)Yeah. Oh, that's what's so great about science fiction. And this is like science fiction ish. Just in that it takes place on another planet, but
orb (21:38.037)Yeah. One interviewer on a science fiction podcast was like, other than planets and space ship, other planets and space ship, what makes a science fiction? And I was like, I didn't say that. Don't ask me.
Zack Jackson (21:55.086)That's what Kurt Vonnegut said that. He said, I'm, I'm a science fiction writer because somebody told me I was.
orb (22:01.093)Right, I'm like, I'm not making claims here.
Zack Jackson (22:05.702)But that's the beauty, that's the like the best of science fiction is we take what it means to be human and we play it out on a stage that's so outrageous that it's not going to too closely allegorize, but we can work out in them what's happening here with us.
Ian Binns (22:10.501)Mm-hmm.
orb (22:21.501)Oh, and it just comes in like Game of Thrones. I don't know where Westeros is. But I know greed. I can I know that feeling.
Ian Binns (22:27.468)Oh yeah. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (22:30.973)Uh-huh.
orb (22:35.089)That's really well said. That's funny.
Zack Jackson (22:39.318)So in this universe of yours, the earth gets brownballed in the first sentence, which means we basically destroyed the topsoil and nothing can grow. Our atmosphere is polluted. There's nothing living left on it. Everything is brown now. And we had to leave. The humanity had to go out into the stars and colonize other planets with hopefully a bit more intentionality. So imagining that universe.
What do you think those people who left Earth, those people who were religious, how do you think that sort of thing would affect their view of God, the divine? How do we bring God with us to the stars?
orb (23:24.069)Right, right, because the...
orb (23:29.678)you're going to have to have some understanding that can handle that. Which in some ways has been all along. Apocalypse is often looming. I mean, you think about how many texts apocalypse is looming. I mean, think about how many saviors. The only way I can make you think I'm a savior is if I can show you politically, religiously otherwise, I have to be able to show you an apocalypse to show you your need for someone to save you from it.
Zack Jackson (23:33.848)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (23:57.339)Mm.
orb (23:58.473)and even the crashing of the stock market, I'll protect you because it's coming. You know, that's like a thing. Why 2K? Think of how many of these. I have the answer to help you escape becoming wrath. So perhaps sometimes those arise in order to destroy whatever conception is so limited that it's actually dependent on avoiding that thing. Whatever it is, if it's ultimate reality, all of it has to exist within, it has to be able to handle even that.
Zack Jackson (24:21.134)Mmm.
Ian Binns (24:21.177)Right.
orb (24:30.053)You know, like if a story, if you're animating myth, AKA your religion, that which holds you together can't absorb the earth not making it, then you need to get a new one.
Zack Jackson (24:30.285)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (24:47.334)I imagine people in that universe did. They would have had to.
orb (24:49.293)Well, imagine, yeah, imagine, well, I mean, we have very straightforward examples of this, like Galileo's like, we're not actually the center. There's something called the sun, which is the center. And you have a whole hierarchical worldview, which keeps lots of different people above other people. And you have that system going, no, no. And he's like, well, actually, we just have this thing called a telescope. We figured out how to make glass out of sand. We put two of them in a metal tube. You can see.
Ian Binns (25:17.634)Mm-hmm.
orb (25:18.621)Um, we have very real examples of this in not so recent history when new information or new events shatter. Whatever the story is, it's holding people together and it either doubles down. Oh, here's one America's the greatest nation on the face of the earth. Hmm. You just lost in Afghanistan to a group of locals using weapons that they got from Russia in the eighties.
Ian Binns (25:36.632)Yeah.
orb (25:47.805)You know what I mean? Like the greatest military superpower lost. Like Taliban won, America zero. So like you either readjust your narrative or you double down and now the absurdity really gets amped up. So you're right, they have to, they have to at some way, yeah, like whatever wasn't big enough has to get big fast.
Ian Binns (25:59.853)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (26:17.738)Yeah. Most of the apocalyptic literature in the Bible, at least, is like, here's the end of your world. Here's the end of everything you know. Your whole system stops working. The enemies are winning. And then there is hope because God stops it before the ultimate end. So I imagine in this world that's dying, there's all these people with this like religious faith that's built on that sort of thing. That's like God would never let the earth die.
Ian Binns (26:18.021)Yeah.
orb (26:27.493)Right, right, right.
orb (26:36.474)Right.
Zack Jackson (26:47.19)That's the end. That's the stop of the suffering. The earth is it. And then as the earth continues to die, they have to reevaluate, oh goodness, what is the end then? What is the next thing? What is the next thing that's more expansive, that's higher that.
orb (26:59.462)Right.
And that's what I, and when I learned that the earth brown balled, and I like that sentence, when I learned that the earth brown balled, because I had to explain how to get a guy on Ferdus asking a guy, we had to like, what was so interesting to me is, oh, take the worst fear in the air right now and just have it happen. Just have that be the starting point. It's like in a marriage. Think about a marriage, a couple has an argument that just keeps coming up.
Zack Jackson (27:11.769)Hahaha!
Zack Jackson (27:21.387)Mm.
orb (27:30.593)Try the three of us to imagine that. There's some issue that keeps, sort of keeps coming up. And all of a sudden, one day in the midst of an argument, one of the partners says to the other, well, if we're gonna stay together, we're gonna need to get to the root of this. But they've never ever remotely discussed or considered not staying together. But the one of them said it. And there's like a holy terror of like, wait, did you just say that?
But you the observer, if you were observing the argument, it'd be like, that's like one of the best things they could have said, because they're gonna probably get, so it's like speak the unspeakable, and notice how the nervous system weirdly relaxes. There's an openness, even like a democracy is an experiment. Well, some experiments fail. Like just take all the terror of January 6th, take all the terror of election.
Ian Binns (28:03.501)Right.
Zack Jackson (28:14.627)Hmm.
orb (28:26.929)Medley just take it all and go. Yeah, it did it was an experiment some experiments fail and Weirdly enough and affection arises maybe even imagination Which I think I knew even I mean the thing that really is interesting to me and what you were just saying Zach is Jesus isn't like oh, let's do everything we can to keep the temple together. He's like, oh, yeah this whole thing's This whole idea that the divine dwells in a building Yeah, fine for like
Ian Binns (28:32.773)Yeah.
orb (28:56.781)not one stone will remain on top of another. It's almost like he's like, in order for you all to understand that the whole earth is a temple, that all of it's holy and sacred, yeah, it might need to come down. He doesn't seem to be shy away from, if that's what it'll take, fine.
Zack Jackson (29:13.undefined)Yeah.
Ian Binns (29:19.353)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (29:20.644)And they did. The Jews and the Christians both built new systems that were more expensive, that didn't need to live in the temple.
orb (29:25.457)Right.
I've been asking people this, try this by the way. This is really fun. Say to somebody, cause I've been trying this out and I love what it does to people, me included. I'll say to them, hey, next year, check this out. Biden versus Trump. Here we go.
Zack Jackson (29:46.41)You talk about feeling something in your body.
orb (29:46.581)And notice, and people, you can just see people throw up in their mouth. And as like, are you kidding me? Those are the options next fall. And yet what's also interesting is you, if you zoom out just to touch, perhaps that as the options is the kind of pain the system needs to be in. But for like, maybe the system hasn't bottomed out yet. Like these are the options here in America where we, where we've
Ian Binns (29:48.348)Mmm.
orb (30:15.009)have a tradition of coming up with kind of awesome stuff. This is what perhaps a system hasn't, and obviously we know from addiction and lots of different things, you have to hit the wall at some level. And all of it, like think of how many, for the three of us, how many moments in your life you were in enough pain to actually start asking a whole new set of questions. But like try that Biden versus Trump, say it like it's the coolest thing ever and just watch people like, are you,
Ian Binns (30:18.425)Yeah.
Ian Binns (30:38.146)Yeah.
orb (30:44.605)But like that disgust, that disgust is how we actually do new things. Like seriously?
Ian Binns (30:53.072)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (30:55.242)Yeah, sometimes you need to be searching for an enigmatic man with your assassin and have entrails dropped on top of your head. You know, sometimes that's just what happens.
orb (31:11.165)Please clarify for your listeners that that's a reference to the book.
Ian Binns (31:14.821)That scene was so amazing.
Zack Jackson (31:15.434)Oh, that's one of those things that you can say about the book that makes no sense until you get to the part where it's in.
orb (31:20.613)I just love the second time she appears in his bedroom and he's like, wait, you can't find Diltud? And then he says it again without the question, wait, you can't find Diltud? Like he's so delighted. Wait, has this happened before? Is this like a thing? And he's like the admiration for Diltud. She's like, yeah, he's just like, he doesn't even really exist. Wait, this is like the greatest news ever.
Ian Binns (31:32.848)Hehehehe
Ian Binns (31:36.527)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (31:46.83)Aren't you supposed to be the best?
orb (31:48.229)Yeah, wait, isn't this what you do? Ha ha ha!
Zack Jackson (31:51.882)I also love that instead of saying like, well, you know, I'm an official assassin. You would never say that in a bureaucratic system, right? You would use a word like graining, which is so innocuous. It's just, it's so bureaucratic and he just keeps drilling that this is a graining. That's just, you're a murderer. It's what you are. No, no, I'm graining. It's different. It's well, are you.
orb (32:02.207)Mmm.
orb (32:06.944)This is a grainy.
Ian Binns (32:11.001)Yeah.
orb (32:14.085)Right. Do you have a gun? Do you have a gun on you right now? Do you have a gun? He's just like, you act like this is so civil, but like how... Ha ha ha.
Ian Binns (32:18.552)Yes.
Zack Jackson (32:19.598)I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Zack Jackson (32:25.43)That was a theme that kept coming up as the book progressed. It was like, because earth was destroyed, we had to reform it. Some very smart people decided to create the most effective system possible for the most good for the most people. And from the surface, it looks great. Right. And everyone respects the chairs and the arrangements and all of that. And you can get a job just putting down stakes in the ground.
orb (32:43.845)Alright, right.
Zack Jackson (32:54.398)And imagining what a neighborhood might look like. That's a whole job. And if you don't like it, go be a baker. That's a job too. And it's just this freedom and wonderful. And you're like, why can't the world work like this? And then the more we look into it, those kinds of bureaucratic words that are used are actually laced with poison. And you realize how much is like. Respectable is not actually good.
Ian Binns (32:59.068)Uh huh.
Zack Jackson (33:21.974)Right. And I kept seeing, I kept hearing like, Oh, well, you know, we're, we're re we're restructuring the division right now where we're having to make some, uh, some strategic cuts to streamline our team is like, well, you're firing me, you know, and how many things that we can hide by, by making them sound respectable.
orb (33:48.85)I was just reading about a hedge fund owner who owns an NFL team and is just making a mess of the NFL team. And the hedge fund owner made billions off of betting on the major banks to survive, but the banks survived because of a government bailout. You're like, that's insidious. Did I? Oh, Carolina in the house.
Ian Binns (34:07.189)All right.
I'm wondering who you're talking about.
Ian Binns (34:16.016)Hmm
orb (34:18.161)But like, if you just ponder that loop, if you just ponder that loop for a moment, and the insertion, giant systems that insert themselves in the exchange of goods and services and extract value out of it, adding nothing, exploiting it based on nanosecond computer insertions and trades, generating nothing, contributing nothing.
Ian Binns (34:19.092)Maybe like 15 miles that way.
orb (34:48.081)just sucking little pennies here and there, but doing it hundreds of billions of times. Like so insidious.
Ian Binns (34:56.198)Yes.
orb (34:58.369)insidious.
Zack Jackson (35:00.086)Yeah, and we put them on magazine covers. They're brilliant.
orb (35:03.813)And then, right, right. Contributing nothing.
Ian Binns (35:09.36)I wanted to shift to something a little lighthearted. A theme that I loved in your book that I felt like just constantly kept coming up is curiosity amongst the characters. How, you know, when Heen was growing up, he was very, very curious. Would ask questions, you know, just really into it. When he then got into the role of being a series five after the tragedy struck for him.
orb (35:22.172)Yeah.
Ian Binns (35:39.708)Um, it, it's almost like his curiosity was kind of set aside some because he knew he had this job and you could, I love the fact that I guess in part three, you really get into this, that you can start figuring out. Uh, and I, I was kind of picking up on this pretty quickly that he felt fake until he, he got, yeah, like it.
orb (36:02.41)Oh, yeah.
Ian Binns (36:05.068)And then you can see the times, especially when he would get irritated with Dill Todd. Um, I love that. And I would put notes in here saying, you know, Oh, you know, you're it's great that he's irritated with Dill Todd simply because Dill Todd is being very curious. Um, and he's being pushed to kind of get back to that part of his childhood, almost of that role of curiosity. Um, which is, yeah, I'm always told by Zach and the others on the show and, and all of my friends and family. How
orb (36:21.645)Yes!
orb (36:27.609)Mm-hmm.
Ian Binns (36:34.752)how curious of a person I am. Cause I just love to learn and love to ask questions and yeah, I love being curious. And so I just, I appreciate you did that throughout this book and showed his struggles with it as well. I thought that was really fascinating.
orb (36:37.213)Yeah, scientists, absolutely, yeah.
orb (36:48.689)Oh, thank you. That's so well said. Yeah, because you as science, the core of science, the engine of science is curiosity. Oh yeah, and I loved how he starts, like they're discussing things in the bakery and he'll like ask a question and be like, what the fuck, I don't participate in these conversations. I'm the guy just, he keeps, or like when there's a moment when,
Zack Jackson (37:11.545)Hahaha.
orb (37:18.361)Ziga May has Philippe died and he is like, yeah, no, I just saw him the other day, he's fine. And he's like, wait. As he's like beginning, and then Nune shows up and he's like, you're so fake. You just like connect with everybody but they don't know you're assassin. She's like, wait a second. I'm pretending. You think that you and I don't get a paycheck from the same man. Like she comes to just show him his own shadow like.
Ian Binns (37:25.85)Yeah.
Ian Binns (37:36.23)Yes.
Ian Binns (37:46.106)Yeah.
orb (37:46.149)What are you and these Firdes people now buddies or something? No, the two of us have a thing we're doing here. And he's like gradually he can't do the job and he can't pretend. And it's like.
Ian Binns (37:59.076)I love when she starts telling him you're in so deep. You don't even see it.
orb (38:02.817)You don't even see it. You can, you, oh my God, you're gonna like, and it's like a somehow like his curiosity is like, he's feeling and also when he first met Diltad, I was like, oh my God, how fascinating is this? He's beginning to realize that he's been numb for decades, most of his adult life. But then when he actually begins to feel the first feelings coming out, he's thawing, but the first feelings aren't,
Ian Binns (38:05.925)Yeah.
orb (38:31.961)a warm embrace of the unit of nature of all reality. It's just supernatural irritation. Like this guy who pretends like we somehow have some long standing relationship and he has these staccato bursts of conversation and he's wearing these multi one-colored outfit. Like, if you decide not to numb yourself and all these numbing devices we have at our disposal and actually.
Zack Jackson (38:40.59)without right.
Ian Binns (38:40.703)Hehehehe
orb (39:00.605)pay attention and be present to what's coming up from within you. It's probably a number of unpleasant things are like ungreaved grief even. And yeah, you really want to feel okay. You want to feel alive. Okay. Here's a couple of things that are a part of feeling alive. Doubt anger rage. It's all part of it. And I just.
Ian Binns (39:09.626)Yeah.
Ian Binns (39:15.834)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (39:18.307)Yeah.
Ian Binns (39:18.416)When I, and again, you know, with Dill Tud, he played such an important role of reminding Heen who he is. That's kind of how I took it. Like reminding Heen of his own humanity, of who he used to be before he did this.
Zack Jackson (39:27.47)Mm-hmm.
orb (39:27.642)Yeah, right.
orb (39:34.645)Right, right, right. And yet, he at first is like, is this guy onto me? Does he know? He just creates this horrible paranoia.
Ian Binns (39:41.373)Especially when he goes, where'd you park your spaceship? And just, next thing you know, he's passed out. I thought that was great.
orb (39:48.805)And then at the end when he's like, and then at the, because the whole thing is building up in some ways to that. And then at the end when he's like, yeah, I ask everybody that. I just, he's like, wait, what? Yeah, yeah, I like to do that. I just see how people respond. It's always fun. There's gotta be somebody who's got one. There has to be somebody.
Ian Binns (39:58.8)Hahahaha
Zack Jackson (40:00.104)hahahaha
Ian Binns (40:09.924)That was good.
Zack Jackson (40:10.182)Yeah, I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say that his job for a good part of this is basically as, um, uh, a spy to the people in charge, eyes on the ground to notice the things that are happening so that they can be corrected along the way, which seems pretty innocuous, but you can't get, you can't get committed, you gotta connect spy leave. And that's his problem because he's, he's seeing, he's so good at seeing, but
orb (40:21.445)Right, right.
orb (40:26.461)Very straightforward. Yeah, yeah.
Zack Jackson (40:39.082)He starts to know and that's when he gets into trouble, right? When it goes from his head down to his gut. There's a brilliant scene on a page three 35 for those who are following along at home, um, in which he has just baked a loaf of, was it rosemary olive oil bread? Um, so yeah, which was a special bread for his mother back on another planet that they've never had there. And he bakes it in the bakery. And this guy.
orb (40:44.994)Absolutely.
orb (40:57.649)Sourdough with rosemary.
Ian Binns (40:57.924)which sounded very tasty.
Zack Jackson (41:08.918)bursts in. Oh my gosh. Cause he rushes in and says, I have to have another. And then the narrator, which is he says, he's got a small white dog under his arm. The dog is wearing a sweater on the front of the sweater and big letters. It reads who's taking who for a walk. That's troubling enough, but there's a series of zippers on this man's shirt that run in diagonal lines across his chest and appear to have no purpose. Do you have any more? He sounds desperate.
orb (41:09.718)Oh, I love it that you love this scene.
Ian Binns (41:11.938)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (41:38.514)I just stand there staring at the top of his head. He's losing his hair on top, but it's like, and it just keeps going back and forth in this way where there's this very clear thing happening in front of him. Where this bread that his mother made has touched this man deeply and the man wants more and all he can do is see that he's got too many zippers and his dog is wearing a t-shirt.
orb (41:44.489)Yeah.
orb (41:47.869)Yes.
orb (41:59.877)And he's got hair combing out that's combed over. Yes.
Zack Jackson (42:04.754)Like how many times have I been that like here I am looking at the facts of the situation Completely missing what's actually happening
orb (42:13.846)And he's telling, or the mustaches, there's like the running theme of like must, I can't get over the mustache. So I just, he gets like hooked on something and yeah.
Zack Jackson (42:17.418)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (42:22.738)Mm-hmm. Yeah. Oh, I loved that.
Ian Binns (42:28.028)I think one of my favorite scenes until we get to the very end where they find Dill Todd and really get, I mean, I loved how this book ended, but the scene in the school where Nune was really just hamming it up with the flower and the water. Oh my, I was laughing hysterically hearing you read that part of the book. I mean, it's just.
orb (42:46.23)Oh
Ian Binns (42:52.48)And especially someone who's been in a lot of schools since I prepare future teachers, just, I mean, I could totally imagine that whole scene and watching her hamm it up and do all these great things. I mean, it was so well done. I just, yeah, I fully admired that part of the book.
orb (43:09.626)Oh, that makes me so happy because...
And the fact that she's so opaque, obviously there's like, that's the giant Easter egg with her is you get nothing about her other than this astonishing. So she's the anti-heen. I'm realizing now as you said that, in some ways she's the anti-heen. You get no interior from her. So it's almost like it's very, very hard to feel anything about her other than just surface admiration for these.
wide range like Liam Neeson I have a wide range of I have a particular set of skills but in the ravine you could see Heen is watching her like how the how do you know how to talk to like high school students in which she's like keep it completely dangerous the perfect line of danger without crossing she somehow is able to do all these things and leave them in the palm of her hand and shock without
Ian Binns (43:45.048)Yes, love that movie, especially that scene.
Zack Jackson (43:45.262)Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Ian Binns (44:08.492)Mm-hmm.
orb (44:10.669)And you could just heen, it's just like, what is? Just, he's just one other, it's like a different kind of Diltud irritation. How does she do, what am I even watching? What is, it's like just his curriculum of disorientation. This is like the master's level. It's like Diltud cracks the door and she comes in and just like, yeah, you're not gonna understand any of this.
Zack Jackson (44:19.218)Mmm.
Zack Jackson (44:33.89)But at the same time, she's like, she's totally just, that's all surface level. That's all playing. She's not being sincere. She's just, she's performing. Yeah. No matter what that looks like. If I have to be a performer, great. If I got to be this improv artist, great. I'm still going to kill you, but you'll know nothing of my heart and soul. And the moment you start to get too close, I'm going to shut you down, you know.
Ian Binns (44:41.645)Mm-hmm.
orb (44:42.193)Job to do. I always get the job done. Mm-hmm.
orb (44:51.249)Yeah.
orb (45:01.231)You know, of course, I think later today we're opening up a Where'd You Park Your Store in which there will be a t-shirt that just says in big letters, You messed with the wrong series 5.
Ian Binns (45:12.744)Oh, I love that.
Zack Jackson (45:13.499)Hahaha!
orb (45:15.293)And there's also a t-shirt that says, Heen Who Grows Bears. And there's also, we're about to release, I think either sometime in a couple of days, we're about to release a coffee mug that just says, Piddle, Piddle on it. And there's, yeah. And then there's, oh, and then you'll be able to buy the Brown Ball poster for your wall.
Ian Binns (45:20.876)Oh yes, that was great too. I just... Ha ha ha.
Zack Jackson (45:24.078)I love that.
Ian Binns (45:30.732)Oh my God. Yeah, when he stood up at the school and said that, that was amazing.
orb (45:43.437)And then we designed, my friend designed one. And then there's also in that like, you've seen it with New York, but a t-shirt that just has a big heart. It just says, I love Diltud.
Zack Jackson (45:44.183)Oh, I need that.
orb (45:56.645)And then there's also a t-shirt that just says, you just got Bobby freelanced. Like the multiple deep cut level on that one.
Zack Jackson (46:06.914)So I need, I need you to explain this to me.
orb (46:09.861)You know, he's going to write a self-help book. You know that, right? Called, you just got to Bobby freelance. But he doesn't come from a family of writer. He doesn't come, he comes from the outer pangs. So right reading wasn't a thing. They weren't very civilized people. So he doesn't really know, but people could tell him he needs to write a book. So he dictates the book to Lan Xing, his girlfriend, but he keeps getting, cause he loves her so much. And it's like his manifesto, his like 12 rules for living kind of thing. But.
Zack Jackson (46:12.562)Oh my gosh, how do we have?
Ian Binns (46:14.021)Really?
orb (46:38.621)He's telling it to her, but he keeps losing, like that he's dictating a book and talking to her. What do you think about that? So the book is the text of his book, but it's also him talking to her about, do you think I should say this next part?
Zack Jackson (46:45.646)Hmm.
Ian Binns (46:54.492)That's gonna be great. So don't be surprised if you see my name pop up in order requests with your new store coming out because yeah, that's, I could see myself getting some of those things. So.
Zack Jackson (46:54.928)hahahaha
orb (47:05.936)Uh, good. Oh, and then, you know, there's a Rolling Stones. There's the Rolling Stone, like Mick, Keith, Ronnie, Charlie, these, like, like the four names and, um, Keene, Borns, Nuneye, Diltud, like, you know, this,
Zack Jackson (47:06.409)I just love.
Ian Binns (47:12.988)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (47:13.356)Yeah.
Ian Binns (47:18.748)Gosh
Ian Binns (47:22.872)My wife will be like, what are all these shirts that are arriving? I'll just it's okay, honey. It's okay. It's it's my friend Rob's place. Yeah.
orb (47:28.689)It's a pedal hoodie. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (47:31.374)Of course, clearly, why doesn't everyone have that? Of course. Right? I just love that Bobby Freelance. I was reading all these names that are just totally nonsensical names that came out of your brain, and then suddenly Bobby Freelance. He's not a freelancer, just Bobby Freelance, just his name.
orb (47:33.87)What kid doesn't have that? Yeah.
Ian Binns (47:35.64)Yeah, yeah. That's so great.
orb (47:43.117)Right. Yeah, good.
orb (47:50.937)Yeah, and that's the beauty of creating a world is you, I realized the, oh, I guess part way through I was like, oh my God, we're gonna make up all these names, Ra-Bel, aren't we? Yes, every name will be made up. And then all of a sudden he gets on a glide and the guy's name is Wade. And then it goes back to all the names are made up. And then Bobby was like, oh, so there's the pattern and then the breaking of the pattern. But then when you do break the pattern, go full Applebee's.
Zack Jackson (48:15.656)Hmm.
orb (48:20.497)Go full America. So like when they're at the bowl and it's this incredibly exotic rest, but then, okay. Who are the two people who are arguing at the table next to them? No, don't make up. It's not Forbo and Rasheva. What's, oh yeah, Gretchen and Carl. Like, you know what I mean? Like what's the most, I went to high school with them. So when you go, if you're not gonna make it up, then go full irony free.
Zack Jackson (48:41.123)Yeah.
orb (48:50.309)America, you know what I mean?
Ian Binns (48:52.057)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (48:52.066)So it's like, what is that line from, oh, what's his name? My favorite poet, the angry farmer man. Wendell Berry, that quote from Wendell Berry, from the, that the moment that the politicos can start to read your mind, lose it, make more tracks than necessary, like the fox in the snow, like the moment that we think we know what's gonna happen next.
orb (49:03.174)Wendell Berry.
orb (49:13.681)Oh.
orb (49:21.563)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (49:21.686)Just you kick out the legs. Keep it, keep it unexpected.
Ian Binns (49:22.906)Yeah.
orb (49:24.237)Yeah. Mm-hmm. And that's what's interesting about, like I don't have any, like somebody mentioned me at the end of Act Two, and I was like, there's an Act Two? I don't know any of that. The protagonist, like I guess I know what a protagonist is, but I don't have any of that stuff in my head. So it's just, or like when he brings lines back and falls and breaks his jaw and bites off his tongue, I remember thinking, wait.
Ian Binns (49:48.777)Mm.
orb (49:53.245)I mean, it's like a Wednesday afternoon or something. Wait, my main character can't speak? Like, the narrator can't speak. How long is this gonna, like, not even, didn't see that, literally didn't see it coming. And then, so now I guess there's gonna be a period here where we're waiting for his tongue to get healed, where we'll just, oh, okay. Yeah, kick the legs out, see what we discover.
Ian Binns (49:58.688)Yeah.
Ian Binns (50:14.298)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (50:22.794)Yeah. I mean, isn't that, isn't, I know very little about story writing, uh, other than you make a character you love and then you kick the crap out of them.
orb (50:31.549)and then you fall. Yes, yes.
Zack Jackson (50:35.294)Yeah. You see how they respond to everything falling apart.
orb (50:42.877)So fun.
Zack Jackson (50:42.91)I also need to say thank you for including, I yelled, I yelped in joy when I read this part that you included my favorite joke in the entire world in this book. And you made the point of the joke that it's a stupid joke, but that it is his favorite joke in the world because it's my favorite joke in the world. And it's the only joke I know.
Ian Binns (50:43.14)It's just, you know, go ahead.
orb (51:04.491)Pirate.
Zack Jackson (51:06.066)Yeah. So a pirate walks into a bar and the bartender says, Hey, you know, you've got a steering wheel on your belt buckle. And he says, Arrr, it's been driving me nuts all day. The best joke in the world. I said that in church once. Yeah.
Ian Binns (51:15.224)Yeah.
orb (51:22.621)You can't, it's perfection. You can't, you can't, there's nothing to say. Nothing, what can be said of it? It's the ultimate joke.
Zack Jackson (51:33.731)It's the best joke in the world.
Ian Binns (51:35.688)So full disclosure, the first time I ever heard that joke was reading it in your book. I had actually never heard that joke. No, yeah.
orb (51:40.809)Oh, beautiful. You're welcome.
Zack Jackson (51:41.026)Have I never said that joke to you, Ian? That's the only joke I know. I legitimately is the only joke I know.
orb (51:46.493)Hmm. The book is bringing the two of you together in new ways. How is it we've been friends this long and I haven't heard your one joke?
Ian Binns (51:50.776)in ways we never knew.
Zack Jackson (51:52.637)Oh
Right? We're always talking about serious stuff. That's the problem. Or Star Wars, sure. Right. Very serious. Yeah. Pretty much.
Ian Binns (51:59.undefined)Or Star Wars.
orb (52:01.982)Yeah, serious stuff. Yeah. Same category.
Ian Binns (52:03.544)Yeah, yeah, very important. Exactly. I just got my Star Wars Advent Calendar opened it up today for the first time. Very excited. My Lego Advent Calendar. It's a major joy this time of year. So.
orb (52:11.667)Oh, that is so great.
orb (52:18.124)Thank you.
Zack Jackson (52:22.45)Yeah.
Ian Binns (52:23.58)So what's next for you, Rob, with this series and stuff? You talk, I think you said before, you hope it's gonna be multiple books and you've left it that way.
Where do you want to go with the next one?
orb (52:34.829)Yeah, well, God, I just, I'm always like, don't say anything, Rob Bell. Just, but obviously it says book one. Like I have a long standing, well, like on the Robcast, I just early on was like, don't be that guy who's talking about what you're making. First off, cause it might be rubbish, whatever you're making, but just tell people, yeah, it's out.
Ian Binns (52:58.148)Right.
orb (53:04.909)So just be somebody who actually makes things. Early on, that was a thing where it was like, otherwise, you're just that, you know, hey guys, working on chapter seven, and everybody's, but, and then I go and put book one on the cover, which is basically like, there's more. So yeah, there, it's very, very exciting and fun. So yes, there's, I, there's different places we're going to go. And, and like the Bobby, when I realized.
Like, What's a Knuckum, one of my plays, is the play that Nord writes early on in this book. And I was like, God, it's so on the nose and ridiculous. But when I realized there was ancillary books, Bobby Freelance is gonna need to write. And then there's some other things that you're gonna need, you're gonna need, that aren't like the book one, book two, book three, but there's these other pieces. So, yes. And yeah, quite, yeah. So, uh.
That'll all be coming. And I get very, very excited about where it's headed. Even the idea that it would go forward in time, it may surprise you where different ones. Yeah. Yeah, and I.
Ian Binns (54:14.212)Yeah, I mean, I'm excited about where it could go.
Zack Jackson (54:14.27)Yeah, but this isn't your first.
This isn't your first work of fiction though. I mean, you've written the two plays and this isn't even your first novel. You have.
orb (54:24.177)Yeah, there was a one novel years ago and it felt, that first novel in the plays felt, I see at the time how it felt indulgent. Like I had to learn to trust the goodness of life, even as I was going around the world, inviting people to trust the goodness of life and making fun of terms like guilty pleasure and giving people permissions, you know, just give yourself permission slip, follow your heart, all that stuff.
This is like Rob Bell'd me.
You know what I mean? It's like all these things that I spouted off about standing on stages, holding microphones all over the place, came like boomeranged back and punched me in the face with love. And was like, this thing that you've been like almost doing like on the side, almost like kind of a, because you know responsibly you have this thing that you do. Just.
Zack Jackson (54:59.451)Yeah, you're the permission giver who gives you permission.
orb (55:25.949)Just let yourself throw yourself into it and see what happens. So it's been a very, see where it goes and just trust it. And then, yeah, just, yeah. Yeah. And all the stuff everybody like, God, how do you pay the bills? How do you arrange your life around that? How do you, all the questions all of us have just, are all the questions that came up all over again. So yeah, that's got like a.
Ian Binns (55:30.33)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (55:53.822)Yeah, yeah, sometimes.
orb (55:55.773)We're literally in the corner of the garage figuring out a new life.
Ian Binns (56:01.744)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (56:02.326)which I gotta say is very, it's very reassuring for the rest of us that you're doing the same thing, that you are.
orb (56:12.954)stuff doesn't go away.
Zack Jackson (56:14.686)Yeah, letting a lot of things go, living more simply so that you can follow where, where you're being pulled.
orb (56:21.401)Yeah, yeah, that's all the like, all those wobbles. But how are we gonna... And even the... Well, you all, you all know the science. Heisenberg's on... Like, we don't know what the particles are gonna do next. Like the causality of the modern age, like A plus B equals C, we don't get... Maybe.
Ian Binns (56:39.374)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (56:43.387)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (56:48.886)be the uncertainty you want to see in the world.
orb (56:49.789)There's also, right, obedience. There's also, yeah, you throw yourself into it and follow it and then we'll see where it goes. But yes, Ian, in answer to your question, and this has been talking about this has been really interesting energetically because I knew don't give this book coming out and talking to people about this book, let the conversations, just let all that shape the heart because of the...
next books two and three and four and maybe five, which have lots of shape. But let, but even, even the, no, don't hold off for just a half second and just talk to people about this and, and see how that shapes even where they go. Brian, Brian Eno has this great line about, he doesn't read fan mail.
Ian Binns (57:37.925)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (57:41.9)Yeah.
orb (57:47.965)because he says people who admire your work are always voices for conservatism because they're like that thing, I love that thing you did. So he's like, I don't wanna hear people tell me how much they like the thing I did because it inherently will put in my head, keep doing that thing you did. But what's so fascinating to me about talking about this book is how many people are like, I can't wait for book two because I have absolutely no idea. And that makes me very happy.
Ian Binns (58:14.608)That's right. I have all these conflicting thoughts in my head on where this thing's gonna go and how the characters are gonna interact. But I'm in, it's so exciting. I think that part, you've captured my curiosity. And so I...
orb (58:20.515)Right, so.
orb (58:25.681)Alright. Yeah.
orb (58:30.757)And there's like a giant, giant Easter egg about what happens next. And it's so obvious at the end of the book, but not one person has mentioned it. And not one person has asked for it or thinks that would be interesting. But I have like a, oh no. So I already have like the sophomore album, maybe jazz. And it's people will be like, what? And then, oh.
Ian Binns (59:00.141)Yeah.
orb (59:00.733)So I already feel the giant, all I have to get, you have to get all that off your head about even what's, then just start over again, because nobody.
Ian Binns (59:09.08)See, I wouldn't even want to try to guess what it is because I want that experience you just simulated it up. Like, oh, okay. Like, I didn't see that coming or something like that. Like, I just, I'm, cause you did that a lot throughout this book, so.
orb (59:18.853)Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
orb (59:24.773)Yeah, and nobody was asking for this book. Nobody was like, God, when are you going to get around to that thing? So all of it is just enacting everything I've been spouting out about for years. It's like, OK, let's just do this. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (59:27.534)Hmm. Ha ha.
Zack Jackson (59:40.406)Yeah, I'm anticipating being completely surprised by whatever's next. And then for the format to drastically shift after that. And for book three to just be written in semaphore or something. It's a series of flag movements since book three and who knows?
Ian Binns (59:44.823)Mm-hmm.
orb (59:54.373)Yeah, Sanskrit.
orb (01:00:03.037)So great.
Zack Jackson (01:00:05.446)Yeah, well, thank you for sharing your delight with us. You are always a source of inspiration for so many people, the official permission giver. Thank you for accepting that permission for yourself and producing that which makes you come alive.
Ian Binns (01:00:07.836)Absolutely.
orb (01:00:15.187)Mmm.
orb (01:00:19.561)Thank you.
Mmm.
orb (01:00:29.417)Thank you. That means the world. And thanks for having me on your podcast.
Zack Jackson (01:00:32.074)Yeah, everyone should get the book. You should sign up for the two days at Ojai. There's all that and more available at rodbell.com, where there's also links to all of your social media connections, which just like everything else you do, is subversive and delightful and not at all what the professionals would tell you to do.
orb (01:01:00.285)There are professionals? Question mark?
Zack Jackson (01:01:03.104)I mean, there are people that get paid.
Ian Binns (01:01:05.146)Yeah.
orb (01:01:05.529)Okay, there we go. Whoa, that's a great distinction. Well said, well done.
Zack Jackson (01:01:10.254)Yeah. All right.
Ian Binns (01:01:12.188)Okay, well thank you for joining us, Rob. Yeah.
orb (01:01:12.281)Love it. Wonderful talking to you all. Thank you. Very inspiring.
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Episodes manquant?
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Episode 121
Today we are joined by Dr. Chris Impey to talk about exoplanets, the search for life in space, and the search for meaning on Earth.
Dr Impey is a University Distinguished Professor of Astronomy at the University of Arizona. He has over 220 refereed publications on observational cosmology, galaxies, and quasars, and his research has been supported by $20 million in NASA and NSF grants. He has won eleven teaching awards and has taught two online classes with over 300,000 enrolled and 4 million minutes of video lectures watched. He is a past Vice President of the American Astronomical Society, won its Education Prize, has been an NSF Distinguished Teaching Scholar, Carnegie Council’s Arizona Professor of the Year, and a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Professor. He has written 70 popular articles on cosmology, astrobiology and education, two textbooks, a novel called Shadow World, and eight popular science books: The Living Cosmos, How It Ends, Talking About Life, How It Began, Dreams of Other Worlds, Humble Before the Void, Beyond: The Future of Space Travel, and Einstein’s Monsters: The Life and Times of Black Holes.
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
9bi2pvCS8hJHF73c6ylI
Transcript (AI Generated)ian (01:16.703)Our guest today is a university distinguished professor of astronomy at the University of Arizona. He has over 220 refereed publications on observational cosmology, galaxies, and quasars, and his research has been supported by $20 million in NASA and NSF grants. He's won 11 teaching awards and has taught two online classes with over 300,000 enrolled and 4 million minutes of video lectures watched. He's a past vice president of the American Astronomical Society,
has been an NSF Distinguished Teaching Scholar, Carnegie Council's Arizona Professor of the Year, and a Howard Hughes Medical Institute professor. He has written 70 popular articles on cosmology, astrobiology, and education, two textbooks, a novel called Shadow World and eight popular science books. I'm very excited to welcome Dr. Chris Impey to the podcast today.
chris_impey (02:07.898)Yeah, delighted to be with you.
zack_jackson (02:09.75)Welcome. That's quite an introduction. Ha ha ha. Thanks for watching. I hope you enjoyed this video. I'll see you in the next one. Bye.
ian (02:12.983)Yeah. Obviously, I shortened down what you sent us, and it was tough for me to do that, Chris, because you've done a lot. You know, obviously, I was at fellow academic. I understand the need to do peer-reviewed research and those types of things in our field, but I was really impressed with how much writing you've done for the general public, both articles and also your books. You've written a novel. You've been on several podcasts.
Can you kind of tell us a little bit about your background, what is you do, and then how you also got into that part of your profession of making sure you communicate with the general public as well?
chris_impey (02:53.298)Sure, you won't hear it in my voice, my accent, but I was born into Edinburgh, I'm a Scott. I had a little transatlantic childhood that sort of wiped out the Scottish borough, but if you feed me single malt whiskey it would come back. And of course, I'm sure you noticed if you've gone to Britain that you look up and there are not many stars visible there. So once I decided to do astronomy I knew I was going to leave, so I did my undergrad work in London.
zack_jackson (03:04.15)Thank you. Bye.
Ha ha ha!
chris_impey (03:22.938)and never look back and I'm a dual citizen now. So astronomy is big in Arizona. I've not looked elsewhere. The grass is never greener anywhere else. We're building the biggest telescopes in the world and we have five observatories within an hour's drive. So this is the perfect place to do observational astronomy. So I'm very happy. But then as people's careers evolve, you know, the writing research papers is important. It's the sort of stocking trade of the academic.
But it's also, you know, the texture of the average research article is that of a three-day old bologna sandwich. It's almost designed to be indigestible writing. The constraints of an academic discourse make that happen. So I was always interested in more popular writing, so I segued into textbooks. And then I realized the problem with them is that you've written a textbook and that's a nice challenge. But then the publisher just wants you to update it every year or so.
It's like, okay, that's not so exciting. I think I'm not going to do this anymore. And then I think more broadly, apart from just liking education and being very committed to teaching and mentoring students, you know, I've just seen the, well, even before the sort of large waves of misinformation and the assault on facts in our culture, it's, I viewed it as an obligation of a professional scientist to communicate to a larger audience because, well, to be blunt, we're paid by the taxpayer.
zack_jackson (04:26.05)Thank you. Bye.
zack_jackson (04:44.15)Hmm.
chris_impey (04:54.118)And also, there's a lot of misinformation out there, and science is often misperceived or characterized in wrong and inappropriate ways. And so I think all scientists should not just stay in their little lane doing research, but they should, if they can, some better than others. And not everyone can be Neil deGrasse Tyson. That's fine. But I think there's an obligation to communicate to larger audiences. And once I got into it and got practiced and better at it, then I now understand that
I mean, it's like I couldn't imagine not doing it.
chris_impey (05:32.018)And the books just, okay. And so books just flow out of that because writing popular articles is just a sort of lighter version of writing a technical article. And then, you know, you want a meaty subject. You do a book-length version. So I've been writing about cosmology and astrobiology. And I've started about 10 years ago I say, I think this is my ninth book, Exoplanets. So books are fun. They're more challenging.
ian (05:32.543)I almost had to sneeze. Sorry, go ahead. Ha ha ha.
chris_impey (06:01.958)to take on a big subject and distill it down and make it, you gotta make it, have a resonance for a person with no, maybe with no background in astronomy or maybe just a little background and you're taking them through what could be a very esoteric subject. So that, I like the challenge of that. Although the books are exhausting. Once I've done a book, I don't wanna, I almost don't wanna look at a book or read a book or write a book for a while.
zack_jackson (06:28.65)do people ask you like when's the next one coming out? Like right after you finish. It's like having a baby. I'm not sure if you can tell, but I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
chris_impey (06:31.898)Of course. Yeah, they are. Yeah, it's like I'm not going to go there about the having a baby because my wife would my wife would give me a hard time. There's nothing like having a baby. You can't even imagine, you know, and and and she and yeah, and she's right. But like having a baby, you know, women may feel that and then they do it again, you know, so I write the book, have have a slight, you know, trauma afterwards or just let down. It's a little bit of a let down sometimes.
zack_jackson (06:43.89)That is a good man. Good job.
ian (06:45.766)Yes.
chris_impey (07:01.918)you finished any big-ish thing. But I do like writing, so I'm committed to it.
zack_jackson (07:02.094)Hmm.
ian (07:09.303)Yeah.
zack_jackson (07:10.05)So you're writing and thinking and studying a lot about exoplanets these days. So you're writing and thinking and studying a lot about exoplanets these days. So you're writing and thinking and studying a lot about exoplanets these days. So you're writing and thinking and studying a lot about exoplanets these days. So you're writing and thinking and studying a lot about exoplanets these days. So you're writing and thinking and studying a lot about exoplanets these days. So you're writing and thinking and studying a lot about exoplanets these days. So you're writing and thinking and studying a lot
chris_impey (07:15.718)Yeah, it's a super hot field with the number has up to 5,300 last time I checked on NASA's website. And remember, you know, 1995, the number was zero. So this is all, this is all the last few decades and it's just growing gangbusters. And now it's a slightly unfortunate because I have, we have students here who are working on exoplanets or astrobiology. And, you know, there was a time when if you discovered one cool Earth-like planet or water world,
ian (07:27.244)I remember that.
chris_impey (07:45.818)about it. Well now you know you'd have to find a hundred interesting things to write a paper. So the bar has been raised just by the success of the field. But the interesting thing is that it's moving to a new phase. So the most of what's known about those 5300 exoplanets is not much at all. They're basically is either a mass or a size or maybe both and you get a density and know it's a gas planet or a rocky planet. And that's it. We can't characterize
zack_jackson (07:46.792)Hmm.
zack_jackson (07:54.15)Yeah.
zack_jackson (08:04.316)Hmm.
chris_impey (08:15.698)thousands of exoplanets. So the next stage of the game, everyone's taking a deep breath in the research field is to try and characterize the atmospheres and the geology and of course find life. And that's just a very hard experiment. It's just much harder than detecting an exoplanet in the first place. So there's sort of excitement in the air because if I were betting, I would say that within five to seven years, we will have done the experiment of looking for life
or Earth planets that are nearest to us and will either know the answer. Either there will be microbes on those planets that have altered their atmospheres or there won't be and that will be an amazing experiment to have done. So it's really on the horizon. But it's daunting because it's a very difficult experiment. Earth-like planets are a billion times fainter than the stars they orbit. So you have to, and they're far away so they appear very close to their star. So you have to isolate the planet from the star, blot out the billion times brighter
and then smear the feeble reflected light from the exoplanet into a spectrum and look for molecules that indicate life like oxygen, ozone, methane, water vapor and so on.
ian (09:26.503)But the molecules you're looking for are always in the atmosphere itself, right? Like you wouldn't, and I understand that, and I think we all do, but, you know, some people listening may not realize that that's, that's what you're looking at. When you're talking about with the spectrum is that makeup of the atmosphere, nothing about like if there's, if it's a rocky planet, what's on the ground, I guess.
zack_jackson (09:26.614)Now.
chris_impey (09:30.458)there.
chris_impey (09:45.358)Right, right. And it's important for people to realize that the characterizing the exoplanets is done in that indirect way. For instance, of those 5,300, only 150 have ever had an image made of them. You know, seeing is believing. It's nice to have images of exoplanets. That's a hard thing. And those images are, you know, they're pathetic, a few pixels. They're just pale blue dots in a far away. So there's no, and if you ask this,
ian (10:02.488)Right.
zack_jackson (10:03.35)Thank you. Thank you.
chris_impey (10:15.678)The question of when will we be able to make an image of an exoplanet to be able to see continents and oceans? The answer is maybe never. The answer is decades or a very long time because it's just too hard to make images that sharp of things that far away, even with space telescopes. So astronomers have to be a little more indirect and the clever method that's on the table now and will be done, James Webb is doing some of this but was never built to do this experiment, it will actually be better done with the huge...
set of ground-based telescopes under construction. So the experiment is you use the star to backlight the exoplanet when it crosses in front of it, and the backlit, the light from the star filters through the atmosphere of the exoplanet and imprints absorption from these relevant molecules called biosignatures. So that's the experiment you're doing. And it's still hard. And it's also not clear you'll get an unambiguous answer. You know, obviously,
and its cousin ozone are the prime biomarkers because on Earth, the oxygen we breathe, one part and five of our air, was put there by microbes billions of years ago. So the reverse logic is if you see oxygen on an exoplanet or in the atmosphere of an exoplanet, it must have been put there by life because oxygen is so reactive, so volatile that it disappears. If there's not life to sustain it, say the biosphere of the Earth shut down overnight, the entire biosphere just shut down.
ian (11:41.803)Thank you. Thank you.
chris_impey (11:45.458)just imagine the thought experiment. Within five to seven billion, a million years, so very short time in geological terms, the oxygen, that one part in five we breathe, would be gone. It would rust things, it would dissolve in seawater, it would oxidize with rocks, and it would be gone. So if it were not put there originally by life and then sustained by photosynthesis and other life processes, it would disappear. So the logic, therefore, is if you see it elsewhere, bang, it's got to be microbes putting it there and causing it
to be there.
ian (12:16.845)Yeah.
zack_jackson (12:16.95)Hmm, unless there's some hitherto unknown non-living process by which these things happen.
chris_impey (12:24.058)Right. So that's a good point. And there is a debate there because the data that's going to come in, well, first of all, it'll be noisy. It won't be beautiful, perfect spectra. So they'll be ambiguous to interpret. And then when you see it, what is the, where's, does the bar set for being enough? And the geologists have weighed in on this. And so whereas the sort of simplistic view as well, if you see any significant level of oxygen, certainly 18% like on the earth, what's got to be biology.
zack_jackson (12:41.694)Yeah.
chris_impey (12:54.218)That's pretty much true, but geologists have figured out ways where without biology, just with geochemical reactions, if you conjure up a geochemistry, you can get 6%, 5%, 7% oxygen. That's quite a lot, more than most people would have expected. So the geologists are saying, well, hold on. Yes, a lot of oxygen is probably a biomarker, but you would have to know more about the planet to be sure that it didn't have some weird chemistry and geology going on.
for any of the other biomarkers. Methane is a biomarker too because it's produced on earth, you know, mostly by life, a good fraction of that, cow farts I think. But so it's the same argument. So these wonderful and difficult to obtain spectra are going to be, everyone's going to jump all over them and hope they give an unambiguous answer, but they might not. Science is not always as cut and dried as that at the frontier, which is where we are. But it's the
zack_jackson (13:34.511)Hmm. Sure.
chris_impey (13:53.958)exciting experiment and it will be done fairly soon.
ian (13:58.804)Okay.
chris_impey (14:01.358)And then a sort of related issue is that it's not just microbes. I mean, that's just looking for life as we know it on the earth. You could also look with the same technique, and this is an interesting possibility, for what are called techno signatures. So biosignatures is just evidence of life, typically microbes, because we think most life in the universe is going to be microbial, even if it's not exactly like our form of biology. But you could also look for things
technology like chlorofluorocarbons, which you know, were responsible for almost killing the ozone layer for a few decades until we sort of ruled them out of refrigeration units. And there are other chemicals that are produced by industrial activity in a civilization, which would normally be very trace ingredients in an atmosphere, barely, you know, not present at all really. And if you could detect them in an atmosphere, it would be indirect evidence of a technological or industrial civilization.
Realization on that planet and that will be very exciting. So that's the same method being used to ask a very different question But it's a more challenging experiment because these are trace ingredients. I'll give you an example I mean, we're all aware of climate change global warming and we've seen the carbon dioxide content of our atmosphere Increased by 30% roughly in the last few decades. That's quite a lot. It's obviously concerning and we know the implications But if you step back and look at the earth from afar
and say, well, shouldn't that just be obvious? Shouldn't some other alien civilization look at the Earth and say, oh, those people are really screwing up. They're killing their atmosphere with climate change and fossil fuel burning? The answer is probably not because carbon dioxide is a trace ingredient of our atmosphere, and 30% increase on a trace ingredient would actually be very hard to detect from a distance. So even that dramatic thing that we are all anxious about on our planet
industrial activity and fossil fuels is not dramatically obvious from a distance. So these are quite difficult experiments. The techno-signature experiment is much harder than the biosignature experiment.
zack_jackson (16:13.592)Hmm.
ian (16:14.165)Interesting.
rachael (16:17.101)One of the things that you had said when looking at these exoplanets was, you know, we look at them and we want to see them and what's going on with them. And then you added the line, and of course, detect life. And that's where our conversation has gone for the last couple of minutes. But I'm wondering, you added that phrase that seems to think that finding life is part,
entire reason for studying exoplanets. And I'm wondering, A, why you think that? And B, what that says about, you know, making it very narcissistic and Earth-centered, what that says about us.
chris_impey (16:54.799)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (17:02.778)Right. Okay. So good question. I can unpack that in parts. I mean, yes, if I were a geologist or a planetary scientist, I'd be just pleased as punch and happy as a pig in a poke to just study exoplanets. That's all that I'm happy. I've got 5300 new, new geological worlds to study. Whereas the solar system only has a handful. Oh, yeah. So depending on your discipline, you might be totally
zack_jackson (17:16.049)Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
rachael (17:19.507)Right!
chris_impey (17:32.718)properties. But astrobiology, I mean astrobiology writ large is the study of life in the universe, and the context for that search for life in the universe is the fact that we only know of one example of life, and that's on this planet. And everything in astronomy and the history of astronomy, and the Copernicus onwards, has told us we're not special, has told us there's nothing singular
zack_jackson (17:59.891)Thank you. Bye.
chris_impey (18:02.718)about our solar system, about our galaxy, or our position in the galaxy, and so on. In space and time, we are not special. And so, you know, for biology to be unique to this planet, when the ingredients are widespread, we've detected carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, the biogenic elements out to distances of 12, 13 billion light years, almost to the birth of the universe. Water is one of the, you might think it's special. Earth is a water world. Well, actually, some of the exoplanets have 10 to 30 times more water.
water than the Earth. So it's not, the Earth isn't really a water world even, pale blue dot, it's not that special. And water is one of the most abundant molecules in the universe too. So all the ingredients, the table is set for life in the universe. And as the universe is evolved and is quite old, more and more of those biogenic elements are made by stars and spat out into space to become part of new star systems and planets. And so in an old mature universe with a lot of heavy elements, and with many habitable locations now, we
the best guess is 20 billion Earth-like habitable worlds just in our galaxy, then it just, whether or not it's central to astrobiology, it absolutely begs the question, is biology unique to this planet? Because it really shouldn't be statistically. However, logically, you know, to be correct and scientific, it's possible that there were a unique set of accidents and flukes that led to life on Earth, and it is unique. It would still
chris_impey (19:33.038)It's historical science to wonder how life on earth developed and nobody's ever built a cell from scratch in the lab people have done various parts of that experiment and They can't connect all the dots, but they've done some very interesting experiments that certainly suggest It's not a fluke that the whole thing happened. You need time. You need the possibilities of Chemicals bumping into each other and getting more complex, but that tends to happen It happens if you do it in a computer
it in a lab as well as you can. And so the context of the ingredients for life being so widespread and there not seeming to be any sort of bizarre, flukish occurrence in the development of at least replicating molecules that could store information, if not a full cell, would certainly lead you to anticipate life elsewhere.
And then game on, because the big question then is, so there are two almost binary questions you're trying to answer, which is why the field is so exciting. Is there life beyond Earth, yes or no? And then if yes, is it like our life? Is it biology? Because everything on Earth, from a fungal spore to a butterfly to a blue whale, is the same biological experiment. They seem like very diverse things, but that's one genetic code.
experiment that led to that diversity after a long time, after four billion years of evolution. And there's no reason to expect, even if the ingredients for life and the basis for biology exist far beyond Earth and in many locations, there's no real reason to expect that it would play out the same way elsewhere. And so that second question, is it like Earth life, is a very big question.
rachael (21:27.201)Just as a curiosity, when did, if you know, when did microbes appear on Earth?
chris_impey (21:39.158)So the earliest, the indications of life on Earth, the history of that is really tricky, because as you know, the Earth is a restless planet, and we weren't there, it's historical science, and it's possible you may never answer the question, but the big problem is the restless Earth. It's very hard, there's only a handful of places on Earth, Western Australia, Greenland, somewhere in South Africa, where you can find four billion year old rocks. They just don't exist. I mean, everything's been churned by geology and eroded
rachael (21:46.661)We weren't there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
rachael (21:56.104)Right.
chris_impey (22:09.338)Weathered and so on so just even and that's about when we think life started So you're dealing with you know a crime scene where the evidence has been trampled many times and the crowds have just Obliterated the evidence so that's a hard thing and then the second hard thing is that the incipient Traces of life as you get to cells are very indirect They're sort of just you they're biochemical tracers or sorry there. They're chemical imbalances isotopic imbalances of
versus normal carbon and so on. Because you're not looking for fully fossilized cells. So if you're just looking at what would be called chemical tracers of life, they're pretty good, but argumentative, this field is not resolved, traces that go back about 3.8 billion years. If you're asking when do you have the first fossil life forms, fossilized microbes, single cells,
rachael (23:00.421)Okay.
chris_impey (23:09.238)to 3.4, 3.5 billion years, and that's people then stop arguing about it. I think they believe that evidence. And then there's this enormous long time between that and multi-celled organisms. That step in the evolution of life seems to have taken a long time. You could infer that that means it's difficult or doesn't happen very often, but that's a dangerous inference from data of one. All the inferences, hazardous. So astrobiologists have to keep pinching themselves and saying, it's a sample of one. It's a sample of one.
rachael (23:30.921)Thank you. Thank you.
zack_jackson (23:32.75)Thank you. Bye.
rachael (23:39.721)One does not make a line. One day to... That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.
chris_impey (23:41.139)Don't draw too many conclusions. So, yeah, the cell formation, the evolution of the first cells and microbes seem to have taken 300 or 400 million years from the first chemical traces of life. But those chemical traces, we don't know. There's that Zircon that was found in Western Australia, 4.404 billion years accurately measured by radioactive dating.
chris_impey (24:09.378)environment and so there's evidence really soon after the earth formed when it was just a hellhole of a place you know impacts and craters and geological activity that the earth surface was almost tacky like magma and yet there were there were any ingredients for life there so nobody would rule out life going back very close to the formation of the earth but then but tracing all these evolutionary paths is really hard I mean we have stromatolites which are
modern descendants of the first microbial colonies. You can go to Western Australia, Shark's Bay, I've been there and it's great, they're stromatolites. These were just the same as they were now three billion years ago, it's really cool. One of the things you can't see behind me is my stromatolite collection.
rachael (24:53.985)Yeah.
rachael (24:59.962)One of the reasons, yeah, that's fascinating. It makes a collector about that. It makes a collector. Um. Yeah.
zack_jackson (25:00.071)kind of a few collections
chris_impey (25:01.578)Yeah. Oh, well, three. Does that make a collection?
ian (25:05.749)It's good enough.
chris_impey (25:07.958)Well, yes. It's like primitive counting systems, one, two, many. So I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many. I have many.
rachael (25:13.941)That's right.
zack_jackson (25:15.016)Ha!
rachael (25:19.021)One of the reasons I was asking that question about Earth, because you were talking about these very far away planets and looking for microbial, likely microbial life, then showing up in the atmosphere by its various products. And so my question was stemming from how far back are these planets that we're looking at?
a really long time to create its microbes, then perhaps, since we're looking so far back in time, that maybe those microbes exist now, but when we're looking at them, they didn't exist. Right, that lovely time, space question.
chris_impey (25:51.579)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (26:02.098)Right. So in that context, it's important to say that the exoplanets we're finding are in our backyard. So Kepler, NASA's Kepler mission is really responsible for almost half the exoplanets, even though it stopped operating a few years ago. And so the most exoplanets we know of are within 100 to 1,000 light years. And that's our backyard. The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across.
rachael (26:12.785)Okay.
rachael (26:28.064)Oh, close. Yeah.
chris_impey (26:32.398)And of course, logically, therefore, we're only seeing them as they were a century or millennium ago, which is no time geologically. So we can't see that far back. So we're not really looking at ancient history. However, the more important point, having mentioned that carbon nitrogen, oxygen, and water have been around in the universe for a long time, is that we now can very confidently say, even if we can't locate such objects, that an earth clone,
rachael (26:32.606)Okay.
rachael (26:38.901)Yeah, it's no time at all. Yeah.
chris_impey (27:02.098)something as close to Earth as you could imagine, could have been created within a billion years of the Big Bang. And that's seven billion years before the Earth formed. So there are potential biological experiments out there that have a seven billion year head start on us and then add the four billion four and a half billion years of evolution. And that's boggling because you know, we can't imagine what evolution and biology might come up with given 10 or 12 billion years to evolve rather
zack_jackson (27:11.75)Hmm.
chris_impey (27:31.958)Maybe it makes no difference at all. Maybe these things are slow and they're hard and the Earth was actually one of the fastest kids on the block rather than one of the slowest kids on the block. We don't know. Sample of one again. We'll just put that as a big asterisk over almost everything I say so I don't have to keep saying sample of one. Okay.
zack_jackson (27:32.014)Hmm.
rachael (27:41.861)Simple of one.
zack_jackson (27:42.808)Yeah.
zack_jackson (27:48.834)No.
rachael (27:49.221)That'll just be today's episode title, right? Today's sample of one. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
chris_impey (27:51.14)Yeah, right.
zack_jackson (27:52.65)That's Apple F1.
chris_impey (27:55.038)Yeah, induction is a bitch when you can't do it.
zack_jackson (27:55.492)So.
zack_jackson (28:02.51)So we've talked a lot about the how it's possible, how we might detect it, but what do you think it might do to our sense of self and our sense of spirituality, our sense of humanity, our sense of earth? Should we start discovering life outside of, or at least biological markers in other places?
chris_impey (28:28.898)Right. I mean, I think it sort of bifurcates if we find microbial life elsewhere and improve it, you know, it's beyond a reasonable doubt. And even if we don't know if it's our biology or not, it's just a biomarker that's irrefutable or set of biomarkers. That will be a transformative, epochal event in the history of science. It'll be dramatic. But it will make front page headlines and then fade, I would say, fairly rapidly, because it's microbes.
zack_jackson (28:44.618)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (28:58.858)Like, that's Ponskum or stuff on your shower curtain, like, okay, who cares? So, I mean being facetious, but not too facetious, because I think the public will just be interested and science interested people will be very interested, and books will be written, and documentaries will be made, and so on. But in the public consciousness, I don't think it will permeate very far or persist very long. Of course, the counterpoint of if we decide we found intelligent life in the universe through those techno markers.
zack_jackson (29:03.391)Ha ha ha.
chris_impey (29:28.978)you know, the search for artificial radio or optical signals from some civilization. So they're obviously artificial and they couldn't have been produced by nature. That will be more profound, of course, because that's companionship in the universe. And that will raise all sorts of questions. So I think it really divides that way. And since the universe logically, if life exists in the universe elsewhere, there'll be many more microbes than intelligent civilizations. You know.
ian (29:29.523)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (29:58.858)seed in that first mode. Although SETI is a side bet. I mean SETI for 65 years has been placing this little side bet. Okay, yeah, we can look for microbes and those are hard experiments and now we can almost do it. But let's always place this side bet of jumping over the evolutionary path from microbes to men or humans and look for those intelligent technological civilizations directly. And so it's worth doing. I'm not science
scientists are divided on SETI, even astronomers are divided on it, whether it's a worthwhile pursuit or not, whether it's even scientific or not. That's the strongest critique of SETI is that unlike, you know, if I wanted to go to the National Science Foundation and get a million dollar grant to study some issue of, you know, solid state physics or high energy physics, I'd have to propose an experiment and define my parameters and how I was going to control variables and say how I would interpret the data.
could refute or confirm. SETI doesn't have that kind of situation. They don't know how to define success or failure even. Well, they can define success more or less, but they can't define failure and they can't say what the probability of success is. So it's not a normal scientific pursuit. So that's the critique of SETI from scientists, but I still think it's worth doing.
ian (31:04.946)Right.
ian (31:23.628)Yeah.
rachael (31:24.842)You talked about, and I think you're probably right in terms of how much people will care in the long run or in their day-to-day life or, right? Okay, so we found some microbes from, you know, a thousand light years away. I don't, that didn't reduce my student loan at all. But like, didn't, thank you. It's nice, saw the headlines. It's now three years later.
chris_impey (31:45.018)Right.
rachael (31:54.441)But I've noticed that you did a lot of work with the Vatican and with monks, and I think that that's a different population that might respond to and other religious figures, but specifically those I'm asking you because those are the groups that you've worked with. They might respond a little bit differently to this existence. Could you speak a little bit
ian (32:01.35)Yeah
chris_impey (32:16.803)Right.
rachael (32:23.726)in this idea of how it would change.
chris_impey (32:25.658)Sure. And maybe preface it with just the cultural comment, with independent religion, that the other issue that will arise with, I mean, if microbial life is found elsewhere and astrobiology is a real field with the subject matter, finally, yeah, it's foundational for science. And of course, it terraforms biology because, you know, if you want to poke, if physicists want to poke at biologists who say, well, you just spent your whole life studying one form of biology,
What about all the other forms? You don't have a general theory of biology like we have a standard model of particle physics because you've just been studying one thing like staring at your navel. Well, what about all that stuff out there? Okay, so so it'll be a big deal for biology for all of science but on the intelligent life or advanced life, the problem with what happens outside the scientific community is it's not a tabula rasa. It's not a blank slate. The popular culture, especially in the US
ian (32:59.524)Hmm.
ian (33:08.503)Thank you. Bye.
chris_impey (33:25.718)but almost everywhere now, is so primed for the fact that, A, it's already there and sure, and B, it's visited, and three, it's abducted some of our people, and four, it can make a list of all the conspiracy theories and wild ideas about alien life. And they're just so embedded in the popular culture that it's like that the fact of the existence of intelligent aliens has been amortized. It's sort of been, it's just already been built in.
zack_jackson (33:39.8)Thank you.
chris_impey (33:55.698)in to the culture. And so, you know, that would lead to a collective shrug. Well, sure, we knew that, you know, the government's been hiding this stuff from us for 70 years, since Roswell. So, you know, and now your astronomers are coming along and telling us, oh, it exists and you're all excited, really? Oh, come on, you know. So I think that's the larger cultural issue or problem or whatever, it's not a problem, it's just amusing to me. But as far as a religious reaction to this, and I'll say,
zack_jackson (34:02.271)Hmm.
rachael (34:04.421)Thank you. Bye.
zack_jackson (34:05.05)Thank you. Bye.
zack_jackson (34:12.722)Ha!
chris_impey (34:25.698)the gate that I'm an agnostic, which my wife's a pretty hardcore atheist. And so she gives me a hard time about being agnostic. She thinks that's a kind of, it's a kind of wussy position to take. But I, and I argue with her, we argue vigorously about that one. I argue with her and I use the phrase that was attributed to Feynman. And I think he did say this in the biography of Richard Feynman, famous physicist. His biographer said,
zack_jackson (34:43.45)Fantastic.
chris_impey (34:55.738)Feynman believed in the primacy of doubt and that he held as a high scientific mark and doubt skepticism and doubt is a is a very high mark of a scientist. So I'm proud to wear that mantle of skepticism doubt of not being sure and being okay with not being sure. So I'm an agnostic but I do keep bad company and some of that bad company is Jesuits. Don't you know, don't don't go drinking with Jesuits. You'll you'll you'll end up in a
rachael (34:59.461)Thank you. Bye.
ian (35:13.024)Right.
zack_jackson (35:14.092)Yeah.
chris_impey (35:25.798)and a Rome gutter somewhere and they'll be they'll have got back home safely. With the Buddhists, the other group I hang out with, you don't have to worry about being drunk in a gutter because they really don't drink. They do bend the rules a bit, you know, I've seen them eat a lot of meat for people who are supposed to be vegans and vegetarians. But anyway, those are the two tribes that I've sort of affiliated myself with. And their reactions or perspectives on life in the universe is are quite different. They're interesting.
Each the Buddhists that I've been with and I've read behind this of course and read some of their More you know the scholarly articles written about this It is completely unexceptional in their tradition to contemplate a universe filled with life That could be more advanced It could be human like or it could be more advanced or different from humans in also a vast universe with cycles of time and birth and
and death of the universe and rebirth of other universes. So the Byzantine possibilities of life in the universe are pretty standard stuff for them and would not surprise them at all. They do get into more tricky issues when they come to define life itself, which biologists of course have trouble with, or sentience, which is also a tricky issue. But on the larger issue of the existence of life in the universe far beyond Earth, that's just non-controversial.
zack_jackson (36:48.35)Hmm.
chris_impey (36:55.898)to them and when I say that's what we anticipate and that's what scientists expect it's like okay sure and the Jesuits are in a different slightly different space they're of course in an unusual space as we know within the Catholic Church because they're you know they're the scholarly branch you know they're they're devoted to scholarship they from Gregory and the calendar reform they were liberated to measure
ian (37:17.944)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (37:25.678)the heavens and then eventually that just segwayed smoothly into doing astronomy research. The Jesuits have been doing pretty straight up astronomical research since certainly the early 19th century, so quite a long time. And they have that sort of intellectual independence of being able to pursue those ideas. All the Jesuit astronomers I know, there are I think 11 or 12 in the Vatican Observatory and they all live the double life. They're all PhD astronomers.
rachael (37:37.221)Thank you.
chris_impey (37:55.798)with parishes. So it's not a problem. Whoever else, whoever elsewhere might think there's a conflict between science and religion, they don't see it. They don't feel it. And if you ask... Yeah. Yeah.
ian (38:05.145)Mm-hmm.
zack_jackson (38:06.03)No. And if anyone out there wants to hear more about that, they can listen to episode episode 113 with brother guy, the, uh, the director. Yeah.
ian (38:10.246)We have an episode.
chris_impey (38:13.821)Right.
ian (38:15.343)Director of the Vatican Observatory.
chris_impey (38:16.418)Sure, sure. So I've known guys since, well, since he was a grad student actually, and a long time. And yes, and so they, they're pursuing it from a scholarly direction. And for them, it's also uncontroversial that there would be life elsewhere. Now, what is the, you know, what does that do to God's creation when you imagine that Earth and humans are no longer the centerpiece of it? That's a more interesting question.
zack_jackson (38:22.034)Wow.
chris_impey (38:46.298)I've had debates about that. And I heard Jose Funes, who was the previous director of the Vatican Observatory and Argentinian astronomer, in a press conference actually in the Vatican City State when we had a conference on astrobiology. In response to a question about astrobiology, because that was what the conference was about, he gave a very interesting answer. He said he gave a parable of Christ in the flock of sheep and how there was the sheep that was lost.
you know, you had to gather back to the rest of the flock. And he didn't complete the story, he just left it hanging there. And so you were left wondering, are we the lost sheep, you know, and the other, and all the intelligent aliens out there are the rest of the flock? And what's the message, you know? So he sort of almost muddied the waters with his little parable. But in the manner of how they view the universe,
zack_jackson (39:27.914)Hmm.
rachael (39:28.621)Thank you. Bye.
zack_jackson (39:33.792)Hmm.
chris_impey (39:46.398)the rules of physics. I used to teach a team graduate cosmology with Bill Staker, who is one of their tribe. Sadly, he died a few years ago. We teach cosmology and he's a relativist. He works on general relativity and the Big Bang and all that. And if I was just wanting to pull his leg at breakfast, we had breakfast before we taught us to organize ourselves. I could do one of two things. I could say, oh, Bill, physics, we got you with physics.
is squeezed back to the first 10 to the minus 43 seconds. Got to the gaps, there it is, that's a little gap. And then physics owns the rest, you know. And then if I was really feeling frisky, I'd sort of, since he was a Catholic, I'd tease him about the three impossible things he has to believe every morning before breakfast. Virgin birth, resurrection, et cetera, you know. So I don't know how all those circles are squared truly because we've had, you know, I've had conversations.
zack_jackson (40:22.572)Hmm.
zack_jackson (40:26.32)Hehehehehe
zack_jackson (40:35.05)Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
chris_impey (40:46.798)But I know that it's not a conflict or a tension or even a problem to imagine life in the universe and even intelligent life. So for neither of those two very different religious tribes, does it seem to be an issue?
ian (41:06.443)So can you talk more about, especially how you got involved? Cause I think that science for the monks and nuns program was really interesting. And, you know, one, how you got involved, but you know, reading your book Humble Before the Void was just very interesting to kind of see about your experience from there. And you told us before we started recording that you wrote that after your first time going and that you've been there eight or nine times now. What has all of this been like for you? How has it had an impact on your work and also your personal life?
if yes and what ways.
chris_impey (41:38.798)Yeah, it was a sort of profound, it's been a profound experience since 2008, I guess, so it's almost 15 years and eight trips. So the first time was one of those great things of you come across the transom professionally. Sometimes I got a call from a colleague that I didn't know that well, who he knew I had an education, a good reputation as an educator. And he just called me, he's a postdoc at Berkeley actually, an environmental science postdoc.
He said, how'd you like to go and teach the Dalai Lama's monks cosmology? And it's not a question you ruminate over or look at your skit, look at, oh, I'll check my calendar. Let me get back to you. No, you just say yes, and then you make it happen. So I said yes, and then it happened. And I was savvy enough in hindsight to take my 17-year-old Paul with me on that trip. And he'd never been anywhere out, he'd been to Europe a couple of times, but he'd never been to Asia or anywhere exotic.
zack_jackson (42:14.65)Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
rachael (42:17.821)Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
zack_jackson (42:23.05)Thank you. Bye.
chris_impey (42:38.738)if you like. And so that was a profound trip in that sense. It was a bonding with your 17-year-old and you know, we were a little more adventurous together than either of us might have been on our own. And so the context was that invitation. And then I learned that his holiness the Dalai Lama, who famously has said in his autobiography that if he hadn't been selected at age four to be the
of compassion would have been an engineer. Fine, that's an interesting statement to make. But, and it meant that when he was a child in Eastern Tibet, in a pretty primitive village, you know, he would just infuriate his parents by taking apart their clocks and mechanical devices and never quite putting them together again. So he had this analytic and mechanical and engineering and scientific mindset even as a child. And then of course his future was cast into the role he had
zack_jackson (43:11.134)Hmm.
zack_jackson (43:25.992)Hmm.
chris_impey (43:38.798)he took. But he's always had that strong interest in science. So he looked around 20 or so years ago and realized that the monastic tradition, his, the Gelug tradition, of course, or other traditions in Buddhism, was sort of outdated. You know, the monastic training was extremely rigorous. They take years and years of rhetoric and philosophy and theology and comparative religion and all sorts of things. But there's very little science, very little math. And in the schools, there's
zack_jackson (43:39.972)Bye.
chris_impey (44:08.718)very little science and very little math. And he just thought that was unacceptable. He said, my monks and nuns, the nun part actually did come later. And that was a good part of his work to make the level of playing field for monastic training to include nuns. But he just said, these my monastics cannot be prepared for life in the 21st century if they don't have science and math. And so in the manner that he does these things, he just looked around and waved his arm and said, make this happen, you know, and I've now
zack_jackson (44:19.05)Thank you. Thank you.
zack_jackson (44:30.035)Yeah.
zack_jackson (44:37.45)Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
chris_impey (44:38.798)heard from proximity to people in his orbit that his holiness, the Dalai Lama says a lot of things. He has great ideas. He's very activist. He's very visionary. And he says all sorts of things. And people scurry around and sometimes they just ignore him. Sometimes nothing happens. But this one, they decided to make it happen. And what happened was they looked around Dharamsala
chris_impey (45:08.658)the blue, who was an educator and a scientist, a young scientist. And they just glommed on to him and they said, Hey, can you help us with this? Can you set something up? And so he set up the science for monks program, then science for monks and nuns. When the nuns came on board and I was one of the early people he called. And so the model was to bring three to four Western teachers in different subjects. The Dalai Lama's core interest.
it doesn't mirror a bit his interests, which are evolutionary biology, neuroscience, physics, math, and then environmental sciences come on board too. So it's not every field of science. So these, we would come out as Western teachers and there'd be cohorts of monks and then monks and nuns, about 24 in a group. And we do three week intensive workshops and they're very intense, you know, we're in the classroom six, seven hours a day and then our evening sessions or observing
zack_jackson (45:50.671)Hmm.
chris_impey (46:08.658)telescopes. So it's kind of grueling actually, but it's inspiring as well. And eventually, the idea is that enough of the monks and nuns will be trained to be educators themselves, and you won't need to depend on Westerners to come out and do this. And they're not really there yet, but they could get there. I don't want them to get there, because then I won't get invited out. So it was a singular experience. And the book I wrote, of course, was fresh,
zack_jackson (46:24.494)Hmm.
chris_impey (46:38.738)I was really, I wrote it not long after the first trip. And to your question of did it affect me or change me? Well, yes, in many ways, some of which I probably haven't fully appreciated. I mean, first of all, it was a deep embedding in a culture, in a way that I'd never done. I was pretty experienced world traveler, but in that sort of slightly superficial way of someone who goes to Asia and tries to hang out and go to a bar in a local restaurant and see the sights, but you don't really get to know the people
ian (47:05.228)Mm-hmm
chris_impey (47:08.838)you're moving around. So being three weeks, sometimes four weeks, and then traveling with them afterwards or during, you know, really you get to learn the culture. You also see in these northern Indian towns, most of the workshops are in northern India, there's now in southern India, Bidtabhatta, Nepal for this too. They're mixing very well. India has a, you know, kind of black mark on it right now with its current government of sort of sectarian strife and
Most recently with the Sikhs, but also obviously with Muslims But in those little northern Indian villages where there are sometimes 50 percent Buddhist 50 percent Hindus They really get on pretty well. I mean that they're just they're sort of under the radar the geopolitics or the What the Modi government is doing at the time so? It works pretty well, and it's nice to see that So I learned that I saw the culture up close. I would be part of their rituals and go, you know and
ian (47:50.666)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (48:08.758)see everything they saw and listen to their prayers and talk to their scholars. And so it was a pretty deep embedding. And then as far as my own life, when I come back, rather than just view it as, you know, amazing experience, I got some beautiful photos. I had these great memories. Um, it did sort of make me reflect a little, uh, because of their, the ethos they had. And their ethos is, is of course very, um, very different from
most of a Western ethos. It's a Buddhist are all about compassion and suffering, suffering and compassion. They do go together. They're almost bedfellows. So I got the message, I think very early on, when I was walking towards the lecture hall and it was at one of these Tibetan children villages and they're very poignant places. They're about 11 or maybe now 14 Tibetan children villages in the northern part of India. And that's where the refugees go.
ian (48:46.008)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (49:09.158)that escaped. So almost all the monks in my early workshops left Tibet when they were teenagers even younger, brought across the ice fields by family members at great risk. Some didn't make it, others lost toes and fingers from frostbite. They had to go in the winter because the Chinese troops would intercept them and even even then did in the winter. So they were orphans,
And they grow up and go to these Tibetan children villages, sort of orphanages, really. And so I was walking towards the lecture hall, which is situated in one of these villages. And there was a hard, scrabble, packed dirt soccer pitch. You know, it looked really uncomfortable for falling. I am enough of a Brit to have experienced playing football soccer on really nice grass, because England does have good grass, you know. And I was thinking, the first thing I thought, damn, I don't want to play football.
rachael (50:04.321)Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ian (50:04.525)Right.
zack_jackson (50:05.412)Hmm
chris_impey (50:08.918)on that field. That would be brutal. So there was this football field and there was a 10-foot wall behind it running the length of the football field, painted white, and on top of it in 10-foot high letters was a slogan of the school, others before self. And I was just thinking, I wonder how many American high schools would have that as their slogan. How would that go down with the, you know, social media, me generation, whatever.
rachael (50:10.621)Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ian (50:31.167)Right.
rachael (50:31.321)Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
zack_jackson (50:32.25)Hmm
ian (50:34.845)Yeah.
chris_impey (50:38.918)So that was one thing. And then a series of those little messages sort of sink in about how they do operate differently from us or me. And so one thing it made me reflect on when I went back home was I immediately embedded back in my academic life and hustling the next grant and writing the next paper and talking to my collaborators. And I just realized how really how intensely pressured.
rachael (50:40.763)Wow.
chris_impey (51:08.658)Darwinian that science, Western science system is, it's kind of, you know, it kind of grinds you down. I mean, I've been hustling for grants from funding agencies for 40 years and I kind of burned out on it, you know, it's hard. It doesn't get any easier because there's younger whippersnappers that are very smart and, you know, they're going to get your grant. So it definitely made me reflect on the sort of hyper competitive nature of some parts of
zack_jackson (51:21.042)Hmm.
ian (51:21.047)Mm-hmm.
rachael (51:28.721)Thank you. Bye.
chris_impey (51:39.719)and just reflect on what is important. Is it important to know something, or to teach something, or to give something, or to what is important? And how does that work when you're a scientist and educator? And that's it. Thank you for watching. I hope you enjoyed this video. I'll see you in the next one. Bye.
ian (51:56.043)Yeah. Well, it's just interesting reading the book and I told you before we're recording. I've not been on to finish it yet, but I look forward to finish it just because, you know, one, you know, as I've already said, you're a fantastic writer for the lay audience, the general public, which is not something, you know, I've, I've worked with many scientists as a science educator and many of the ones I've worked with have said they struggle with that. Right. So I always applaud that. Um, but then just the, the personal experiences you shared and.
chris_impey (51:59.833)I'm
ian (52:26.163)humble before the void was just very interesting to me, especially someone who I have embraced meditation and mindfulness over the past three or four years and gotten really into it. And so, you know, first when I, when you shared that book with us and saw that the Dalai Lama wrote, you know, the preface for it and everything, I just was immediately fascinated because I find him to be absolutely fascinating in his perspective on things. So
chris_impey (52:47.298)Yeah, I mean, I was, I mean, I've been privileged to meet him a couple of times. And, uh, and it's always, uh, a singular experience. Uh, the first time was that first trip out actually. And, and it was in that same Tibetan children village. And that was, this was in the winter. I was a January is a very, um, very difficult time to be there. It's in the foothills of the Himalayas. Quite high up. Dharamsala has trivial factoid that a Brit will appreciate like me. Um,
It has the world's highest cricket stadium. And so drum solo, there you go. Now you know, when you get asked that, now you know. So we were in this auditorium, this cold auditorium, very cold, and they'd given the Westerners blankets, put over their legs, and even a few little heaters around. But it was brutal. And he was going to give an opening address. And everyone was full of excitement and anticipation. It was probably 2,000 people. But it was a cold, it was an unadorned Spartan auditorium
ian (53:20.331)Oh.
zack_jackson (53:20.594)Hmm.
Ha ha ha.
ian (53:25.403)Exactly.
zack_jackson (53:34.892)Hmm.
chris_impey (53:47.498)on a below freezing day in the Himalayas. And along that football field outside, which is the way his little, he has the equivalent of a pokemobile, he has the DL mobile or whatever that he comes into a place with, that he was gonna come along the edge of the field. And I'd seen walking in that the school children were starting to assemble in a long row along the side of the football field along the place his vehicle would come. And we were waiting
zack_jackson (54:01.775)Thank you. Bye.
chris_impey (54:17.258)He was late and it was so cold and it was quiet. People were murmuring, nothing was happening. And then suddenly we heard this sound, this wave of singing. So they were singing him in as his vehicle arrived. And I was like, wow, that was so cool. Just the sound of that. And then he came and he just radiates when he's in a room. And he's a little frail. He had trouble getting up the three steps onto the stage. But his grin is just... Oh, it's just...
anyone who remelt the hardest heart. He's just so... and his comments are always, you know, they're always kind of offhand and insightful and, you know, he has a very interesting and sensibility. So that's been a remarkable thing. But the monks all had their own insights and I learned a lot from them. I mean, I was teaching them but I was learning a lot from them. And they gave me, you know, when you teach, well, the other thing I didn't say about the
ian (55:12.667)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (55:17.418)experience there, which was also restorative for me, is, you know, I depend on my high tech gadgets and my PowerPoints and my whatever. And I was pretty much warned. I said, you're going to be pretty much off the grid. And it was almost like that. And there were a couple of workshops where, you know, if the cold water, if the water was hot, you were lucky. If the power stayed on all day in the classroom, you were lucky. There was hardly any equipment. We make these, these runs
rachael (55:25.325)Hmm.
chris_impey (55:47.278)These equipment runs down to the local bazaar, and we buy matchsticks and cloth and cardboard and foil and just super primitive ingredients to make experiments back in the classroom, rather than bring stuff out from the West. So you had to improvise, and it was good to do that. It was good to have to lecture and talk and use simple analogies and simple equipment. And so they informed me about that, too, because I wondered how they understood
zack_jackson (56:02.75)Thank you. Bye.
chris_impey (56:17.278)these very abstract things of physics and cosmology. And I think the first striking little insight I had, because I was always reaching for a good analogy. And then, so I sort of turned the tables on one of the monks. I said, well, you have this idea of deep time, which is very interesting. You have a kalpa, which is a day in the life of Brahma. And it's been annotated in some text to be 4.32 billion years, quite a specific number. Happens to be within 10% of the age of the earth.
ian (56:45.207)Mm-hmm.
chris_impey (56:47.258)go figure. And then there's a great Calpa, which is the lifetime of Brahma. And that's about a trillion years, which to a cosmologist is a very interesting number because that's the stellariferous age of the universe. That's the time into the future for which stars will shine after that the universe goes dark forever. And so it's a very interesting coincidence that two coincidences that the age of the earth is a Calpa and a great Calpa is the
rachael (56:48.682)Thank you. Bye.
zack_jackson (57:07.05)Hmm.
ian (57:09.566)huh
chris_impey (57:17.258)universe before it truly goes dark forever. So that was interesting. But then I was asking, following up that knowledge, which was interesting, because most religious traditions do not encompass crisp, precise numbers of that scale. I said, well, what does it mean to you? How do you understand a kalpa? Just a kalpa, the 4.3 billion years. And the monk I was talking to said, well, we imagine, we, so this is a collective analogy that people use, not just him.
zack_jackson (57:31.992)Yeah.
chris_impey (57:47.678)We imagine a mountain made of granite that's a kilometer high and a kilometer at the base and We imagine a dove that flies by this mountain and brushes it with its wing once a day And it's granite so it only dislodges a few particles and a Calpa is how long it takes the dove to erode the mountain to nothing and I thought wow I get it I got it I got it in my gut and for a scientist analogies are meaningful and metaphors to
zack_jackson (58:16.737)Mm-mm.
chris_impey (58:17.618)when they get you somewhere other than your head, when they get you in a deeper place, a more visceral place. And so that was just one example, but in the end I heard a number of ways that they conceptualized or analogized or explained really quite difficult concepts in their tradition, or there were scientific concepts very differently than a Western scientist would, but how interesting was that? So I always was captivated by that.
zack_jackson (58:45.492)Hmm.
ian (58:46.003)Yeah, that is interesting. Well, we are getting close to the end of our time together. And I feel like I could just keep talking to you about all these different experiences, because it just sounds so fascinating, all the different things you've done. Um, is there anything else that we should have asked you about that we just didn't yet? I mean, does you want to share?
rachael (58:50.621)That is a beautiful.
zack_jackson (58:57.062)Yeah.
chris_impey (59:07.558)No, I mean, I could talk a little bit more about the Jesuits because I, you know, I haven't talked about them so much and I know them very well. And I also know the history. I've had the luck to be there and, you know, teach at their summer schools and so on. So they, they do, they do this very nice thing. They started by George Coyne, the long-term director of the Vatican conservatory almost 30 years, who I've known since I was a postdoc. And he's, he facilitated these summer schools where.
ian (59:22.665)Oh wow.
chris_impey (59:37.518)They get 24 students, first year grads or last year undergrads from around the world, mostly they're majority women, majority developing countries. And they have this, you know, summer school for a month. I've taught at three of them. It's a really great experience. It's on a par with teaching in the Buddhist monks and nuns. Because these people, these kids have often not left their own country. And so suddenly they're in Rome or Castigandolfo outside Rome.
you know, in the heart of Europe, they get field trips to Florence, they go and they see all the sites in that month. I mean, it's just a fire hose of cultural experience while they're getting this boot camp on astronomy and some topic in astrophysics. So it's just an amazing experience. And those students now numbering over 400 because they've been going for 30 years are now really senior in astronomy and some of them are directing observatories and it's really cool to watch them
zack_jackson (01:00:12.95)Thank you. Thank you.
ian (01:00:30.203)Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
chris_impey (01:00:37.658)And that's an amazing thing that the Vatican Observatory has done. And I think what it's done also, of course, has been an emblem of rebuttal for the people who say that science and religion cannot coexist. Because like I said, all all those Jesuits, I know, live the double life and they don't seem to be schizophrenic in any way about that. And also, you know, there's, you know, the Vatican and the Catholic Church did have some, you know,
rachael (01:00:52.165)Hahaha
ian (01:00:52.467)Right.
chris_impey (01:01:07.518)do because, you know, they gave Gallio a very hard time. I mean, I've been to the place where he was on house arrest, his villa with the Villa Gioia, it's a jewel villa outside Florence. It's a pretty, it's got its own vineyard, it's on a hillside, outside Florence. It's a pretty nice place if you're going to be holed up under house arrest, I could think of worse places, but he was blind and it was miserable and he had, he, so, so that was his fate to avoid the torture and the full wrath of the Inquisition.
zack_jackson (01:01:09.15)Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
ian (01:01:12.003)Thank you. Bye.
zack_jackson (01:01:21.15)Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
rachael (01:01:25.521)Thank you. Bye.
ian (01:01:30.888)Right.
chris_impey (01:01:37.938)So they had a lot to do to scramble from that it took two century, you know The the church moves slowly so it was good two centuries before they took his book from the band book list and then JP to John Paul II in 1992 got around to sort of exonerating him You know, I would not call it a fulsome apology at that point But it was you know, it was a certain level of me a culpa that they treated him badly The Bruno thing is off to the side because
zack_jackson (01:01:56.494)Hmm.
chris_impey (01:02:07.458)because there's a lot of misinterpretation of that. Bruno was burned at the stake as, I think the quote is, an impenitent and pertinacious heretic. So it was heresy that got him in trouble, not his astronomy belief. So he's making him a martyr to science that think is very inappropriate. That's not historically correct. An impenitent and pertinacious heretic.
rachael (01:02:21.921)Mm-hmm.
ian (01:02:25.103)Mm-hmm.
zack_jackson (01:02:30.75)Can you say that phrase again?
zack_jackson (01:02:35.971)Oh my goodness.
chris_impey (01:02:37.598)the rap sheet. I mean, if you ever get arrested, just hope that isn't... Yeah. So that's the context, of course. But then we know that going back to calendar reform and so on, this church has also incubated this pretty interesting scientific activity that doesn't hedge the science at all. They just do the science. There are scholars and they are
zack_jackson (01:02:41.15)I need that on my business card. That's fantastic.
ian (01:02:43.125)Eheheh
chris_impey (01:03:07.498)to follow our ideas. So, you know, I've always appreciated that. And it's not always been a guarantee. So the Vatican politics of that I've also seen up close. And under Benedict, they almost were put out of existence. So Benedict was not, John Paul II was a good supporter. So he was very friendly to science. He was very conservative socially, of course, but on science issues, he was supportive. And he started the
ian (01:03:12.567)Hmm.
chris_impey (01:03:37.478)Academy sponsoring conferences right there in the heart of the church. They'd have scientific conferences and John Paul supported that and would give the opening speech. It occasionally got twitchy, like when Stephen Hawking went to one of them and he relegated God to a boundary condition of the universe. So there are a few awkward moments, but generally it worked. So they had these conferences and I think it was a very good sign of the
rachael (01:03:58.321)Thank you. Bye.
chris_impey (01:04:07.518)of liberal thinking about science in that regard. Benedict was not so sympathetic and Benedict was beholden to Opus Dei and Opus Dei have always wanted to put astronomers out of business, shut them down. Like why are we doing this? Why are they here? Let's get rid of it. And so the Vatican Observatory, this is not public knowledge, so maybe I shouldn't even be saying this, but they had a near-death experience under Benedict. And then Francis came along and, oh, sidebar, I'm just boasting a little bit here. I'm up to three popes,
rachael (01:04:37.464)Who?
chris_impey (01:04:37.839)I met, I met, I met those three.
ian (01:04:39.172)that is actually pretty cool.
zack_jackson (01:04:41.13)I'm up to three pups, especially for an agnostic. That's good.
chris_impey (01:04:43.938)Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm I'm an I'm an agnostic but but the first John Paul So that was going back in ways and I had my kids there and one of my kids was very little and My ex-wife was a catholic a lapsed catholic, but her family were very catholic And so they got all excited when they heard we were going to have an audience with the pope And so I was there and I was holding my younger kid in my arms and their photos of this
rachael (01:04:44.122)You're collecting them.
ian (01:04:45.623)It is pretty good. Three posts in the Dalai Lama, you know? That's... That's...
chris_impey (01:05:14.158)you know tries to kuchiku him or whatever and and and my kid and you know Who is this? Who is the who is this scary dude in this white thing? You know, I don't want to so I have this picture of him grimacing and recoiling and and then my ex-mother-in-law who is very Catholic She was chagrin because in one of the photos. It's clear that he's touseling my kids hair and my ex-mother-in-law gave us a
zack_jackson (01:05:19.57)Ha ha ha ha!
rachael (01:05:23.121)Thank you. Bye.
zack_jackson (01:05:23.75)Ha ha ha ha ha.
chris_impey (01:05:44.038)time because we didn't preserve that lock. We didn't make it a relic. It should have been a relic. Anyway, so Benedict was anti and the knives were out and Opus Dei was ascending. And then Francis comes in and it's all wonderful and copacetic now because of course Francis is the first Jesuit Pope and he supports science and he's definitely liberal on that issue and it's
ian (01:05:47.414)Oh.
zack_jackson (01:05:48.231)Oh, as a relic. Ugh!
Yeah.
ian (01:05:53.403)interesting.
zack_jackson (01:06:03.772)Hehehehehe
chris_impey (01:06:13.878)doing the astronomy. And I even have a nice little story about that, because Jose Funes, who I mentioned earlier was a previous Vatican observatory director before Guy Consomagno. Funes is an Argentinian, as Francis is. And back in the day, Jose Funes, the Vatican, to be Vatican observatory director for 10 years, was a seminary student in Buenos Aires in the seminary school.
Hope was then the bishop of that diocese. And Jose told this great story. He was a seminary student and his mom would come and bring him a little carrot, a basket of goodies and baked things and whatever every Sunday. And so she had arrived and she was walking in one of the portals of the seminary school and she looked off to the side and it was the laundry room. And she noticed and recognized the bishop, now Pope Francis,
washing the seminarians clothes underwear whatever and She was very shy and modest woman But she was so shocked by this that she rushed over and said no no you know no you shouldn't do this This is inappropriate and he just laughed and waved her off So the humility is real. I mean that was just a great a great little story about Francis before he became a pope
ian (01:07:32.945)Yeah.
ian (01:07:37.783)Wow. Yeah. Oh yeah. All right. Well, I think, yeah. One final question. We have gone a little over time, but there's something that Zach started doing when we started interviewing the Sinai Snapsys fellows, which is where we all met. It's a great question to end with. And so I always like using it is, what do you wish that everyone knew? Like if you were able to beam information into
zack_jackson (01:07:38.755)fan.
ian (01:08:07.925)around the world. What would it be?
chris_impey (01:08:10.458)Hmm. I mean, as in a science factoid or just about whatever. Well, I guess, okay, I guess, uh, since I'm so into exoplanets, there's going to have to be something about that that most people don't know. So what I would want everyone to know is that in the universe, there are more planets than stars, which means there are 10,000 billion billion planets in the universe. I want people to know.
ian (01:08:14.084)It's whatever you want.
ian (01:08:38.703)Thank you. Thank you.
zack_jackson (01:08:39.77)That's wild.
ian (01:08:42.043)Yeah, I think I got to the part of your book where you mentioned something about you're more stars than grains of salt, right? Or no, more planets and grains of sand. Right. And it was just, yeah, it's just amazing. Okay. Well, thank you, Chris. Yeah, for joining us today. This was an outstanding conversation.
chris_impey (01:08:49.759)Right, right, yeah.
zack_jackson (01:08:52.271)Hmm.
Well, thank you so much.
chris_impey (01:08:57.498)Yeah, no, it's fine. I enjoyed it too. Good, great questions.
-
Episode 120
Today we are joined by Dr Emily Smith to talk about epidemiology, the dangers of truth telling, and how the story of the Good Samaritan changed everything for her.
She is an assistant professor in the department of emergency medicine/surgery at Duke University and at the Duke Global Health Institute (DGHI). During the COVID-19 pandemic, she became known as the Friendly Neighbor Epidemiologist through her social media outlets which reached over 10 million people in 2020-2021. She continues posting on the social account and her Substack blog with a monthly reach of 2-4 million. Her work has been featured in TIME Magazine, NPR, the Washington Post, Christianity Today, and Baptist News Global.
Before joining the faculty at Duke University, she spent four years at Baylor University in the department of public health and was a research scholar at DGHI for two years. She received her Ph.D. in epidemiology from the Gillings School of Global Public Health at UNC Chapel Hill and a MSPH from the University of South Carolina.
She has been married to her pastor-husband for 20 years and they have two fantastic children, one spoiled golden retriever and a new very-friendly golden doodle puppy. Her debut book, The Science of the Good Samaritan: Thinking Bigger About Loving Our Neighbors, released on Oct. 24, 2023 from Zondervan. I’m very excited to welcome Dr. Emily Smith to the show today.
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
AI Generated TranscriptIan (00:04.911)Okay. So our guest today is an assistant professor in the department of emergency medicines surgery at Duke university and at the Duke global health Institute. During the COVID-19 pandemic, she became known as the friendly neighbor epidemiologist through her social media outlets, which reached over 10 million people in 2020 and 2021. She continues posting on the social account and her sub stack blog with a monthly reach of two to 4 million people.
Her work has been featured in Time Magazine, NPR, The Washington Post, Christianity Today, and Baptist News Global. Before joining the faculty at Duke University, she spent four years at Baylor University in the Department of Public Health and was a research scholar at DGHI for two years. She received her PhD in epidemiology from the Gillings School of Global Public Health at UNC Chapel Hill and MSPH from the University of South Carolina. She's been married to her pastor husband for 20 years and they have two fantastic children.
one spoiled golden retriever and a newly and a new very friendly golden doodle puppy. Her debut book, the science of the good Samaritan thinking bigger, bigger about loving our neighbors released on October 24th, 2023. I'm very excited to welcome Dr. Emily Smith to the show today.
Emily Smith (01:15.144)I'm very excited to welcome you all. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here for sure.
Ian (01:21.518)Yeah. Um, as I was saying before we started recording, you know, I've found you because of your Facebook account and was just always amazed, obviously with your expertise in the science and, um, everything you were sharing, but also your lens as an evangelical Christian. Um, I thought that was really fascinating and trying to work with those two communities, right? Trying to kind of be a boundary, uh, spanning individual for that. But I think before we really get into that.
Emily Smith (01:43.734)Yeah.
Ian (01:50.162)I would love for you to just kind of talk to us a little bit about what drew you to epidemiology.
Emily Smith (01:56.476)Yes, and prior to the pandemic, I don't think a lot of people knew what that word meant. By the way, it's seven syllables, and so throw that into a Thanksgiving meal or something if you need a big word to kind of wow family with. But, you know, people would get us confused with skin doctors, like epidermis instead of epidemics, or entomology, which I think is bugs, right? Yeah, it's just another really big E word. I don't know. So now...
Zack Jackson (02:00.95)Ha ha ha.
Ian (02:19.548)It is. Yes.
Zack Jackson (02:19.756)Yeah.
Emily Smith (02:26.068)People know kind of what we are and who we're about just because we've all come out of the pandemic. So if you need the nerdy, jeopardy definition of what that is, before I get into how I got into the field, is the distribution and determinants of disease. And so what makes a disease spread and who is at risk? I tend to say, you know, clinicians and nurses and dentists, they...
focus on one-on-one patients at a time, and we focus on one community or population level at a time, so the aggregate of a lot of individuals. I grew up in a tiny town in Eastern New Mexico, 10 miles from the Texas border, so it is West Texas culture, flat land, great sunsets and oil fields, and really good people. But it was a really small town and a lovely town.
And I just was always loved science. My eighth grade science teacher started talking about DNA and y'all would have thought he was talking about Beyonce or something. I was just like, what is this? And it's magic. And so he gave me a college textbook. This is as nerdy as it gets. Now it's kind of cool to be a nerd back then in the 90s. I guarantee it was not near as cool to wear glasses. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (03:44.687)Ugh. Right?
Emily Smith (03:48.5)So he, and I read it, I read it on a band trip, which is like double nerd points. But I just loved science and math. I don't know what it was, but he hooked me up with the first female scientist that I had ever met at Texas Tech University. And I started doing a science fair project with her in high school, because there really wasn't the capacity to do anything like that, you know, at my traditional high school, because it was too small.
Ian (03:48.514)Mm-hmm.
Emily Smith (04:16.668)And so I still thought I'm going to do something in science, but I had also grown up in the church and our family hosted a lot of missionaries that came into our church. And so I heard their stories. They were very gracious to listen to an eight-year-old, nine-year-old little questions about the world and their adventures. So early on, I knew I wanted to do, I thought I wanted to be a missionary and I still just love the science. And so I went to church.
The natural way to do that is go pre-med. I kind of thought the only way to do that is through medical school, so let's just do that. So I did, I chose medical school as a goal and took the MCAT, I got into med school, got married straight out of college to my pastor husband, and his first job in the church was all the way across the country in South Carolina. So I had a gap year.
Ian (04:50.218)Mm.
Zack Jackson (04:50.222)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (05:13.506)Hmm.
Emily Smith (05:15.872)And I, I mean, I'm just a nerd, so I decided let's just get another degree because it's what we do when we have a gap year, right? Yeah, I mean, yeah, a lot of people might as well. Yeah. And it was in public health because I thought it'd look good for medical school. Day one of epidemiology, my professor, who was really just inspirational anyways, he did the jeopardy definition of epi. But then he said, this is a...
Ian (05:22.764)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (05:23.932)Right.
Ian (05:25.748)Not as well.
Emily Smith (05:44.192)This is an equity science because most of the time we're gonna be working at people who are on the margins in these communities that are marginalized for health or poverty. And growing up in the church, it just clicked in my mind that that's the science of the Good Samaritan. It's quantifying the people who are most at need and then choosing not to walk by. So I didn't go to medical school, went to PhD in Epi instead and history from there. But I...
I also remember going to my first mission trip on the Mercy Ship to Honduras. And when the doctors were focusing one-on-one on these people who had traveled a very long way to get to care, I was naturally asking the bigger picture questions about poverty or why this community has such high rates of...
you know, diabetes or surgical needs when others didn't. And those are inherently epi questions. I just didn't know it at the time.
Ian (06:45.983)That's interesting.
Zack Jackson (06:48.766)Yeah. So you mentioned this is the science of the Good Samaritan, which is, uh, the title of your newly released book. Congratulations. Has that been a story that has that clicked with you then, or is this more of a recent connecting of the dots? Has this story been in, in your heart and mind this whole time?
Ian (06:48.776)Yeah.
Emily Smith (06:52.662)Yeah.
Emily Smith (06:58.037)Thank you.
Emily Smith (07:10.172)Oh, the whole time, for sure. I love that story of the Good Samaritan. And a lot of people are familiar with it, even if you're not of the Christian faith. You know, it's that story of where there's a man on the side of the road who is very sick. I mean, sick enough, hurt enough, where he can't help himself. And two people walk by. Jesus is telling this story, by the way. And those people are noted as religious leaders. And so they're kind of the people who...
Ian (07:11.913)Okay.
Emily Smith (07:38.504)represent power and privilege of the day, but there's one person who actually stopped who's the Samaritan. And in that time, that would have been not who you expected to be highlighted in a story. They typically do not have the places of power or privilege in the religious time of the day, but he stopped and he helped the man. And not only that, he helped him, he bandaged him up, he took him to a place to recover, and then he paid for all of it. And it's just a holistic
view of what helping, you know, true solidarity and helping means. So I think that story just growing up in the church has always very much resonated with me wanting to do missions. But then when I got into EPPE, it resonated on a scientific level.
Ian (08:26.198)Interesting. I love how at the very beginning of the book, you know, you have all those little quotes before you get into the reading itself and, you know, talking, you know, from Mark, uh, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. And then you kind of go into, you know, well, this is what health is the greatest of gifts from Buddhism, perform all work carefully guided by compassion from Hinduism. Then you go on with Islam, Judaism, and then you end, which I thought was really sweet with your kid.
Emily Smith (08:32.139)Yeah.
Emily Smith (08:52.885)Yeah.
Ian (08:54.418)love your neighbor, that's just being a good human. That really resonated with me because I'm actually teaching a science and religion class at UNC Charlotte. And I wanted it to be not a science and Christianity class. I wanted it to focus on multiple religions. And so I'm doing it for the first time. And what, I mean, yes, this is coming more from a Christian lens, but what made you even include all of that in there? Because I thought that was really interesting.
Emily Smith (08:57.041)Yeah.
Emily Smith (09:04.756)Yeah.
Emily Smith (09:24.344)Yes, one of my biggest fears about releasing this book is it being misconstrued as a Christian faith book and making that the center of all faiths. I work with all faiths. I work in predominantly Muslim countries. I've definitely worked with all faiths during the pandemic, but then that quote with my kid at the end.
You know, you don't have to be of any faith to just want to be a good human. He said that during the pandemic when he didn't understand why so many people were angry at me. Cause he lived through it. They heard and saw different things too. And so he just couldn't understand why being a good human wasn't just the top of the list for everybody. So I didn't want this book to come out even unconsciously.
Zack Jackson (10:06.053)Ugh.
Emily Smith (10:22.472)making people feel like you have to be of the Christian faith. That's the center of the world or the center of all faiths. Cause it's just not, there are gorgeous expressions of faith or non-faith or just being a good human around. And I wanted to be very careful in that. Also, when you read the book, you'll see that Christianity has been poorly centered for the sake of conquest or colonialism or
We see it even nowadays right here in America of we need to put the 10 commandments back in a courthouse or say a prayer before football games, but that's just a Christian prayer that's not inclusive of all. And I did not wanna be one of those people that even unconsciously said you have to be a Christian because I just, I don't think you do. You're beautiful people in the world. So thank you for talking about that. It was important to start the book for me with that.
Zack Jackson (10:54.766)Hmm.
Ian (11:15.5)Yeah.
Emily Smith (11:19.176)kind of foundation.
Zack Jackson (11:21.474)Hmm.
Ian (11:22.014)Yeah, I thought that, like I said, it just really resonated with me and it probably because I'm coming from the lens of the class I'm teaching. Um, you know, I am a Christian Episcopalian, but I have always been very curious and fascinated by other religious traditions and I just love learning about them. Um, and so I love that you had that in there. And I just remember right away, just running to my wife, being like, Oh, look at this. And, um, so.
Emily Smith (11:28.681)Yeah.
Emily Smith (11:39.232)Yeah.
Emily Smith (11:45.628)Yeah, well and I also didn't want to proselytize even some unconsciously. It's just I'm not a sneak attack Christian and I don't want to view people as projects. You know, I think the evangelical church has done a really bad job at that. And it's just not in my wheelhouse. I wanted to make that very clear.
Zack Jackson (11:52.523)Mm.
Ian (12:02.825)Mm-hmm.
Ian (12:08.787)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (12:09.006)Sneak attack Christians. That's such a good phrase. That...
Ian (12:11.955)It is.
Emily Smith (12:13.508)People are people, not projects.
Ian (12:15.56)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (12:15.734)Yeah. Oh man, I got to get that on cross stitch somewhere in my house.
Emily Smith (12:19.828)There you go! I like that.
Ian (12:22.422)So you in here, you know, not everyone who's listening has read the book yet, but what made you decide when the pandemic started? What made you decide to create your friendly neighbor epidemiologist?
Emily Smith (12:38.716)Yeah, and you know, I was at two conferences right when Wuhan was starting to ramp up in March, 2020. And we, this is our training, this is our lane. You know, this is our day to really step in and go for it. So once we saw, and when I say we, I say public health and epidemiologists, we saw how this new virus was acting and what was happening. A lot of us paid attention pretty,
significantly to what was happening. Cause what was, it was different than Ebola. You know, Ebola is awful. And hopefully we'll talk about where I talk about that chapter in the book. But when someone is sick and contagious, you kind of know it. Cause it's really horrific in visual. With this, it looked like it was COVID or well, well we weren't even calling it COVID at the time. Whatever was happening.
maybe people were spreading it before they even knew they were infectious and contagious. And so it could catch a lot of people off guard. My day job here at Duke is also working with health equity communities around the world in very poor countries where they're affected daily by bad access to healthcare, poverty. And so if this really was going to be the pandemic that people have been predicting for years.
the margins were gonna be affected the most. So everything in me was just kind of like rising of uh-oh. So I get home and a lot of people were asking questions of what does flatten the curve mean? Do we need to buy a billion rolls of toilet paper? And the answer was always no. Oh, bye. I know, and don't hoard, that's just classic America, isn't it? But also there was a lot.
Ian (14:23.158)People did it anyway though, yeah.
Ian (14:29.416)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (14:30.951)Yeah.
Emily Smith (14:32.412)And I, I re we all remember, I mean, this is a real fear. I do want to honor that of people who are high risk, the elderly, you know, do I need to be scared basically. And I wanted to calm fears, but not squash them because it was scary. So I decided why not, why don't I just start a Facebook page for the handful of real life neighbors that I had and like my family.
Really, I mean, it was just very, very genetic, generic, not genetic. So I named it Friendly because I tend to be too friendly. Like if I sit by you on an airplane, I'm very sorry. Um, cause I, I'm, I really am anyways, it's just who I am. And I'm trying to accept that, but neighbor because of the good Samaritan story, I knew that COVID in particular was going to imply that we needed to neighbor one another well.
We were going to have to take care of the margins. There's going to be a lot of solidarity of staying home for those that couldn't. Get the vaccines for those where it would not work. There just was a lot of neighboring that was going to take place. So I named it because of that. I'm also a pastor's wife. So I thought this is going to be prime time for the church, the Big C Church to be the church.
And I say that, I know listeners can't hear it, but I say that with a smile, not as sarcasm, but I was so idealistic at, I really thought this was gonna be our time to shine and take care, you know, live, love thy neighbor really out in full blown faith. So I named it Friendly Neighbor Epidemiologist. And the only people that followed at the beginning were real life people that I knew. And then when the pandemic,
Ian (16:13.408)Yeah.
Emily Smith (16:23.676)started shifting. We all saw this when it became weirdly political. When national leaders started talking about it as the China virus or these othering type, I was going, what is happening? That is not the faith that I ascribe to. And then when it became, you know, faith that were fear, we started hearing that and people started saying that instead of wearing a mask. I was like, you have not read Galatians five in the Bible.
Ian (16:37.314)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (16:47.15)Hmm.
Emily Smith (16:53.192)You might say faith over fear, but that's not true faith. So I started posting about that too, from this perspective of pure science and then weaving in the faith part to try to help people anchor in a different way than perhaps they were able to anchor at their own churches. And that seemed to resonate with a lot of people for good and bad ways. So then it started going viral. George Floyd was murdered. And I talked...
Zack Jackson (17:18.55)Hmm.
Emily Smith (17:22.724)into that conversation at, especially in the white church, there's a difference between all lives matter and black lives matter and why that distinction is important. People couldn't understand. So it'd go viral for that. And I wasn't doing this to go viral. I don't actually think I was noticing what was happening because I was just busy writing and daily posting. And then the Capitol riot happened and I wrote about that one and that one really kind of exploded.
Zack Jackson (17:29.91)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (17:47.906)Hmm.
Emily Smith (17:53.748)So that's how I got into it. I'm sure we can talk about the nuances, but that's how it initially started.
Ian (17:59.362)And you alluded to, you know, your children seeing the things being said about you and everything. What surprised you most as it started going viral with the reactions? Like, because you, you share some things in here and that were really challenging to read and you in there though, even said that, um, I will not share everything. And so I just, I can't imagine.
Emily Smith (18:13.341)Yeah.
Emily Smith (18:19.457)Really?
Ian (18:30.134)the pain you went through and, but you, I love that you embraced your vulnerability with that because I also, I'll be honest. Yes, I, I am a Christian, but there are many times, especially over the last several years, and Zach knows this very well that I have a really hard time saying I'm a Christian because of the extreme baggage that comes with it. But I feel like if I say it, I have to qualify it really. And yeah, we had Brian McLaren on, um,
Emily Smith (18:47.032)Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yes.
Zack Jackson (18:47.054)Mm-hmm.
Emily Smith (18:53.98)Oh, absolutely.
Ian (18:58.342)last, what, May of 22. And we talked a lot about it then as well, because it just the extreme hate that I felt like we were seeing that, I guess, has always been there. But now is more acceptable to be said. And so I'm just curious, you are I've never been a member of an evangelical Christian community in that way. And so I'm just curious what surprised you the most or if you don't mind sharing some of that.
Emily Smith (19:00.52)Nice.
Emily Smith (19:26.896)Yeah, yes and that you know this portion of the book the book is separated into three different sections centering cost and courage um had to be three c's like a good Baptist I guess but that middle section is the thank you for that or evangelical I grew up charismatic and married a Baptist pastor and now we go to a liturgical church so I'm not sure what I am at this point. Did you?
Zack Jackson (19:39.138)Yes.
Zack Jackson (19:46.531)same.
Ian (19:51.925)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (19:52.466)I grew up charismatic and went to a Baptist seminary and married my wife there. And then now I'm a part of a mainline denomination. So look, I'm there with you.
Emily Smith (20:01.976)Maybe that's just a natural. There's a lot of us out there. Maybe that's a progression. Yeah. Are you? Yeah, I have to figure out where to, like the call and response, do I say the bold or not? Because I would get it wrong or stand and sit. I just get it wrong a lot, but whatever. The church is fine about it. So the middle cost section is the shortest part of the book.
Zack Jackson (20:05.174)Yeah. I'm seeing it more and more. Yeah.
Ian (20:06.559)Yeah.
Emily Smith (20:27.492)It was by far the hardest to write and the hardest to read on the audio. I read the audio book and when I was recording it, I realized the, these chapters still feel so messy. Um, and it's because I just couldn't do more. I couldn't get it. I couldn't package it in a way that some of the other chapters felt pretty and tidy and bowed up. And anyways, it feels like there's a lot of ums and ohs in that chapter because it is incredibly painful.
Zack Jackson (20:39.075)Hmm.
Emily Smith (20:57.472)We were in Texas at the time. We were in the belly of the beast, that kind of feels like, of Waco, Texas. Great, great people there. But also the buckle of the Bible belt, probably the latch of the buckle. So what surprised me is when I started talking more and more about faith over fear, we started getting little trickles. I say we.
I started getting little trickles of pushback from that online. And, you know, it's horrific stuff. It's not, I mean, you get called names and people, you know, you can put that aside. But when I started getting pictures of people sending pictures of guns and Holocaust imagery to me and saying awful things about my children, you know, threats against them, it became very real.
Zack Jackson (21:45.762)Hmm.
Emily Smith (21:53.5)And then one day in the middle of it, my husband came in and brought in a letter that was in our mailbox that was written in black and red marker. And it was an awful threat. And it was laced with, you know, you're part of the mark of the beast and a lot of these religious overtones, which I had heard and received for months at that point, but not in my mailbox. I mean, that is when it became too crazy.
Zack Jackson (22:11.894)Oof.
Ian (22:17.771)Mm-hmm.
Emily Smith (22:22.732)close. You know, there's a cost that was to me, but then this was going to be a cost to the whole family and to the church, to our church. We ended up leaving the faith community. That not all faith, but that one. Some of the worst threats and harassment I got were people from within my own neighborhood or people that I worshiped with. Those are the ones that I won't share because I just can't talk about it yet.
Zack Jackson (22:45.451)Mm.
Emily Smith (22:51.676)The book is not a COVID book because I can't talk about it for 200 pages, nor do I think people want to read about it. The cost was awful because we couldn't let our kids go walk in around the neighborhood without one of us. They had safe homes that they could go in if they ever felt scared. They don't know why we were saying that. We just said, if there's a rainstorm, run to these five homes or
Ian (22:58.166)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (23:00.579)Hmm.
Ian (23:11.19)Hmm.
Ian (23:19.49)Mm-hmm.
Emily Smith (23:20.488)and they still don't know that. And that's very tender for me as a mom to have to hold. And two, at that time, it was also feeling like I was losing a foundation of faith because I grew up with Sandy Patty, Michael W. Smith, Bethel worship, I mean, come on now, really good, yeah. All of that evangelical stuff. And I remember watching the prayer rally that happened in November, 2020, and I'm sure,
Zack Jackson (23:39.222)Yes.
Emily Smith (23:49.32)you guys watched it as well, you know, on the Capitol steps, Michael W. Smith is there, Franklin Graham, I mean, these, it was a massive thousands of people rally. And this was also at the height of that first surge before vaccines. So my soul could not reconcile how that was standing on faith when I put the number in the book of how many died that day, but it was at the peak of the deaths in the US, like morgue trucks.
you know, scenarios. I couldn't, I just couldn't reconcile like, so I felt like we were losing our faith community, losing jobs, you know, or leaving jobs, losing real life friends. And then these foundations that I had just anchored in were, I was just losing that as well. So it's just difficult. I do wish
Ian (24:19.915)Mm-hmm.
Emily Smith (24:45.556)that I could have shielded my family from some of that and just taken more of the brunt of it. But it's just part of the, you know, it's part of the cost of us as a family. And I wanted to put some of that vulnerability in because I think a lot of people, especially from the faith communities, have lost a lot. Or Thanksgiving's and Christmases have been very hard and are still hard. I just get that.
Ian (24:55.126)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (24:55.138)Hmm.
Zack Jackson (25:09.826)Hmm.
Emily Smith (25:12.552)At the same time, it's the tip of the iceberg of what I did put in there. So I wanted to be careful to not put too much just cause I couldn't talk about it.
Ian (25:20.235)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (25:22.156)Yeah.
Ian (25:22.61)When I appreciate, like I said, I appreciate, I I'm someone who embraces vulnerability. Um, and you know, I really love Brene Brown's work around that too. But I very much appreciated you sharing that with all of us and the readers because I just, it was tough. It was tough to read and, um, but I admire that you continued to work a lot. You know, I really appreciate that too, because
Emily Smith (25:31.197)Yeah, for sure.
Emily Smith (25:48.926)Yeah.
Ian (25:52.438)You are still continuing to do what you can to save lives.
Emily Smith (25:57.94)Well, and that was a choice. I mean, there was a point in there where a couple of the threats, I mean, we were working with high up authorities at certain parts of it. And I just asked my husband, do we need to just stop? Do I need to, well, do I need to stop basically? Cause I would, I would have just pulled all of it. It was not worth having a child, having one of my kids hurt or worse.
And so we took a little bit of a break there in the middle of it to kind of discern and use wisdom and then I just decided to keep going with certain parameters in place of Some cameras and Authorities and some backup plans also Some boundaries around what I would or wouldn't stay who I would or wouldn't listen to I got asked to come on Far right like Breitbart type
podcast and just I automatically just saying no to that. I mean, that's just a boundary. So it was a it was a choice to keep going. But it was also at a cost. I mean, that was before I got sick in 2021. My body just said no more. And I just had a I don't know if it's a thunderclap or just a massive migraine never had it before. And it just put me in bed for 15 months. So it
Ian (27:23.838)Yeah, that reading that was tough too. I, yeah. And I just, because it just, I felt like your pain that you were experiencing, at least some of it was coming across, which again, I, I appreciated that a lot. Um, and I have a very dear friend of mine that was in my PhD program with that deals with migraines. I don't think she deals with them as much anymore. This was, you know, back between 2004 to 2008, but I knew right before she started the PhD program,
Zack Jackson (27:24.148)Ugh.
Emily Smith (27:26.952)Was it? Yeah.
Emily Smith (27:38.125)Yeah.
Ian (27:52.266)she would have them where she would be bedridden for like a month or something like that. And just, I couldn't imagine what that was like, but even, you know, I know I asked you how things are going now with you and your family and you told us prior to recording that things are getting better. And, and, but again, you made the choice to continue trying to save lives. Like I think that's very admirable. And so I, that's one of the reasons why I was so excited to get you here.
Emily Smith (27:54.74)Yeah. Oh, for sure.
Ian (28:20.934)And to read your book because that truly is admirable because you know, I have faced hateful things just because of stuff I do with science and religion for a long time now, nothing compared to what you've done. But there have been plenty of times where I've thought, I can't, I'm not doing this anymore. Like, it's just not worth it. Um, and it was nowhere near to the scale of what you have experienced. And so I just, I think it gives a lot of people hope. And I just wanted to make sure you knew that.
Emily Smith (28:37.333)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (28:37.559)Yeah.
Emily Smith (28:45.052)Yeah, well thank you. There was also a scrappy piece of me that did not want to let them win. And because there were there were months of being bedridden in an incredibly dark room, I mean laughing would send me to weeks of a migraine that no amount of medicine, including hospital type medicine, would touch.
Ian (28:55.039)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (28:55.313)Hmm
Emily Smith (29:11.484)And so I, there was a little bit of a fight in me too. I just, I was so terrified that was gonna be the rest of my life. And I was doing everything possible to get out of it. And so now that I've come out of it a little bit more, the tenacity, the scrappiness to keep going means not only did like the bad people, they did not win, but also living into probably who,
I am more of myself now than I have ever been because of it, because I'm a whole lot braver and courageous than I thought was actually in me. So thank you for saying that, because I think we hear stories of overcoming something and it looks like it was an overnight thing and you just believed your way out of it. And this is not the prosperity gospel. It is really difficult stuff.
Zack Jackson (29:43.149)Mm.
Zack Jackson (30:00.311)Hahaha!
Zack Jackson (30:04.023)now.
Emily Smith (30:08.7)you know, just day by day, I'm just doing, I'm just so grateful to be doing my job again.
Ian (30:14.475)Yeah.
Ian (30:18.07)Zach, did you have anything to add? Just, yeah. It's just, it's very inspirational, so thank you.
Emily Smith (30:23.693)Thank you.
Zack Jackson (30:25.222)Oh, you remind me of Julian of Norwich, my favorite dead Christian. Um, are you familiar with her story at all? Yeah. How she, uh, asked, asked Jesus for, uh, an encounter as close to death as possible so she could get to the heart of things and then to come back and be able to share that and the amount of revelation she encountered on those dark nights in that bed, um, changed her.
Emily Smith (30:28.618)Yeah.
Emily Smith (30:32.574)Yes.
Emily Smith (30:35.892)Oh, for sure. Yes, I am.
Zack Jackson (30:54.31)and really clarify the rest of her life. And I'm hearing that a lot from you as well. That's beautiful.
Emily Smith (31:03.592)Yeah, she was probably a little bit more full of faith in the bed. I was just like, what is happening and I want out.
Zack Jackson (31:14.283)Yes, but when she says, yeah, when she says all will be well and all will be well and all manner of things shall be well, she's saying it from that bed. And so it actually means something instead of the sort of, you know, pithy platitudes that you would see on a bumper sticker or a greeting card. And so when you talk about it and you talk about hope and change and good things, I feel, I believe it more.
Emily Smith (31:14.842)This is not okay.
Emily Smith (31:33.113)For sure.
Yeah.
Zack Jackson (31:42.262)you know, because you've been through the flames. One of the things that I found
Emily Smith (31:42.724)Yeah, that passage in particular that she said is, oh go ahead, there was a little, I was saying one of the things about that passage that you just quoted, that's what my husband would tell me just nearly daily during those really dark times, all shall be well and all, yeah all of that. So that's very special.
Zack Jackson (31:53.025)Nope, go ahead.
Zack Jackson (32:09.542)Yeah, that's my mantra. I repeat to myself almost a daily basis.
Emily Smith (32:14.963)Yes.
Zack Jackson (32:17.75)Yeah. One of the things that surprised me in reading some of your work, when I hear about epidemiology, I think of, well, that's spread of disease, clearly. But that's such a small part of your book and a small part of your writing. And I'm reading about gun violence and systemic racism and injustices and economics and...
all kinds of things that have nothing to do with disease? Am I reading epidemiology wrong as a study or is it that this is all just a part of how your heart works?
Emily Smith (33:03.692)probably a both and of that. But epidemiology is not just the pandemic, epidemic, you know, disease detective type stuff that they make movies of. It's that, but it's also anything that affects a certain group of people differently than another group of people. And so that could be, you know, in my work, that's poverty and children's health. It could be who is affected the most by congenital
Zack Jackson (33:05.687)Hmm
Emily Smith (33:33.356)chronic type condition. So it's a really broad field than just disease detectives.
Zack Jackson (33:41.376)Okay.
Ian (33:41.378)All right. Well, so, and I remember your chapter, Trickle Up Economics. And so I'll be honest, Emily, there are so many, like I've now been putting like little markers in here, but I've folded down so many pages that I can't get, oh sorry, I can't get to everything I wanna say. So you made something and I can't find everything again because I just, I have comments on almost every single page.
Emily Smith (34:03.124)Oh
Zack Jackson (34:09.218)We'll leave a link in the description.
Emily Smith (34:09.484)Oh yay! I'm gonna hang your reference business. Thank you.
Ian (34:10.414)And your references in the end and stuff. And especially, so, you know, I'm also a fellow academic. And so I just was pulling your references. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is so amazing, honey. And just, and also too, I started down like the anti-racism journey. And I think 2016. And so some of the things I was aware of, but it was nice to also reread it and stuff, but that the chapter on trickle up economics, when you talk about, um, the question you ask us is, do you want to know the main factor per
Emily Smith (34:15.613)Yes.
Emily Smith (34:26.858)Oh yeah.
Ian (34:40.302)Uh, predicted. Do you want to know what main factor predicted descending into poverty and not being able to climb back out, even when you account for everything else and it was having a child who needed surgery, which I was not at all surprised. Obviously it was health related, but that part and the part I'm trying to remember too, is that just for the communities in Somaliland or was that just also applicable worldwide?
Emily Smith (34:50.57)Yeah.
Emily Smith (35:06.176)it's applicable worldwide that look like, I mean the margins countries, you know, the poorest countries for sure. Yeah, yeah, and that, um, that was not something that we expected either. You know, in my day job, I work in communities like in Somaliland, which is the fourth poorest country of the world, on children who need surgical care. And so we know there's a group of kiddos who can get to, you know, a hospital when they need it.
Ian (35:08.17)Okay.
Right, yeah.
Okay.
Emily Smith (35:34.752)there's a whole slew of them that can't for reasons that are not their fault, nor their family's fault. That's the structure system, systemic racism, structural violence type stuff that happens. So we had been working with our community partners within the country for starting in 2016, trying to map out in the country, where are the kids who need the greatest care?
How far do they have to travel? I mean, it is hours and hours and hours on wheelbarrows and stuff that is just not equity. It's just not what we would want for our children by a landslide. And then we started teasing the data. This is part of epidemiology that I love is you start with the margins and then you go further in to get the truth of the story. Cause that's what laws and legislations are built on, policies. And we found that
There were a group of families in Somaliland that went into poverty because of something and never came out. There were some that were able to climb out of poverty. We see this in the US, right? Someone goes to the ER. If you have an insurance or a nest egg or family members that could chip in, it's going to be a huge expense. Some go into poverty and can come out and others can't.
So in Somaliland, that's what happened. And we started looking at those families at what was different about them than the rest of them. I thought it was gonna be the income level of the family or the number of kiddos that they had to feed, but it was having a kid with surgical care. And so we took that to the United Nations as a policy effort in 2019. There was a big summit there for universal health coverage.
And it's asking the question of what basically is going to be covered under a universal health coverage package. We know it's going to be vaccines and taking care of the sniffles, you know, primary care stuff. But what about surgery? Because that is what is impoverishing people. So we went to make that statement. And the chapter is about starting with the stories of the margin and then trickle your way back up.
Emily Smith (37:48.976)instead of the whole trickle-down capitalism type where you put, you know, a hundred dollars in Jeff Bezos mailbox and you hope it reaches the poorest of the poor in inner Detroit. So it was a very, it was really interesting finding for me, but it also linked the story, their story, hopefully to policy change at the highest levels.
Zack Jackson (38:00.546)Hmm.
Ian (38:10.634)Yeah. Well, I've always said that I, I think it's, um, shameful that our country, which is the richest country, I believe in the history of the world, that anyone in this country could ever go into poverty because of healthcare or that people are in poverty, but still there's so many things there, right? But that healthcare can make people go bankrupt. I,
Emily Smith (38:29.96)and we're the number one. Yeah.
Ian (38:39.958)will never understand that with the amount of money and wealth in this one country that that's possible. It just is absolutely mind boggling to me. And then of course it elsewhere, right? I mean, you talk about in this chapter of like the wealth of like the 10 richest people or whatever the number was and what that could do for those countries in the margins, right? But even the margins in our own country. Um, and I just, I found that
Emily Smith (38:49.696)Yeah.
Emily Smith (38:59.509)Yeah.
Emily Smith (39:04.64)Right.
Ian (39:08.35)Uh, really interesting. I was really grateful that you went that route with that chapter because I thought it was just so important to see.
Emily Smith (39:14.696)Right, and I think that that's where our centering is wrong because this story of medical impoverishment, healthcare impoverishment is in the Bible too. You know, the story of the bleeding woman who had spent her last resort was to go to find Jesus because she had spent all of her money for years trying to get care. And then she touches the hem of his garment to try to be incognito and he stops the crowd for her. Like his center.
His majority, his view was not the crowd. It was the medically impoverished woman. So there's a chapter about that too, about his majority, how we can make that, how we can visualize the world. I think perhaps like what he looks like. But I get all the time, we just need more resources or Emily, we just need more money type. And I think that's short-sighted. I don't think that's true. I think we have...
in the world enough resources and enough money that we need, we just don't have enough equity. And that's money, that's healthcare. We saw that in the pandemic with the lack of oxygen. There's a whole chapter in there on innovation. Yeah, and in India, yeah, when they were running out of oxygen, it's not because the world lacks oxygen. It's because the US and
Zack Jackson (40:18.158)Hmm.
Ian (40:25.054)Oh yeah, that was very heartbreaking. Oh yeah, that part, yeah, yeah.
Emily Smith (40:40.584)stockpiles of it. And so the question innovation is making sure that oxygen is where it needs to be but also asking the harder systemic questions of why wasn't it there in the first place. That the other chapter in that section on courage is on valuing a life you know how do we value it which I think that one was the hardest one to write outside of the cost chapters. Do you remember those about Ebola?
Ian (41:09.574)Yeah. Can we go into that a little bit? That, that was very challenging chapter to read too. You're right. Well, it just, and I'm in a butcher, their names, cause I'm getting to it, but I mean, do you mind telling us the story with that? The doctor who died, but then the other one who didn't. And yeah.
Emily Smith (41:10.34)Yeah.
Emily Smith (41:15.56)Yeah, go ahead.
Emily Smith (41:23.488)Yeah.
Emily Smith (41:27.524)Mm-hmm. Yes. So the it starts out introducing you to Dr. Khan. And for those of us in public health and global health, we know who Dr. Khan is. He is the Anthony Fauci of Africa. He had also been prior to the 2016 Ebola outbreak that hit his country and you know, West Africa. We all probably remember that epidemic.
He had been working with congressmen here in the US, people, legends like Dr. Paul Farmer, who the book is in part dedicated to, to advocate for pandemic or epidemic preparedness for his hospital or resources for something that, could really cripple their system with not a whole lot of fanfare, not much was done with that type of legislation. So I'm trying to set the stage that he is a,
very well known and respected doctor. When Ebola hit in his country, he was also frontline, because he's an MD. So he ended up getting Ebola. And this was in his health system that wasn't given the necessary resources to be ready for this epidemic, even though he was advocating for it. So with Ebola without the support of care, you deteriorate very quickly. Ebola is not highly
It's highly fatal without the support, but not here in the US, which is why a lot of people or the people that have gotten it and have received care here have not passed away. So he gets it, he gets very sick, he gets transferred to a MSF unit that was specifically made for Ebola, and he keeps deteriorating. So they were having to make a decision on, do we give him what's called ZMAP?
Zack Jackson (42:53.355)Hmm.
Emily Smith (43:18.428)And at that point, it was an experimental drug for Ebola. It was the only option available for treatment outside of supportive care like IVs and rehydration. I go into a little bit of detail in the book, but I would definitely encourage people to go read that full story by the New York Times article, and that's in the references. But they made a decision not to give him ZMAP. Now,
There were only a few vials of that in the world, one of which was actually at that MSF facility or very close by. He was also asked to be medevaced and that was given, a plane did come, but he was so sick, they refused to take him, cause it was not equipped like we see those, you know, the big ones here. So.
He ends up dying just a few days later. Without his family, they finally let a friend go in at the end to be with him. If you reverse time a couple of days, there were two other doctors in West Africa, well, one doctor then a nurse that got Ebola too. Same thing, got very sick, deteriorated, had to make a decision of what to do. They were also asked to be medevaced and there was a conversation about
ZMAP to be given to them. Both of them received ZMAP. And not only that, they were medevaced in the state of the art, you know, it looks like a sci-fi book airplane, just equipped with every legit thing possible to keep that contained and landed in here in the US. I remember that. I don't know if y'all remember that on the news where full hazmat suits.
Ian (45:01.95)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (45:03.778)Yeah.
Emily Smith (45:06.844)there's a team of 15, 20 doctors, and they walked out of that hospital a couple days later recovering. I was very intentional in that chapter who I named by name and who I didn't, because the point I was trying to make was if that was my family, I would move heaven and earth to get them medevaced. So I didn't want to dishonor that.
Ian (45:14.207)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (45:14.608)Hmm.
Emily Smith (45:34.46)The question is more at a 30,000 foot level of who is worthy to get ZMAP? Who is worthy to get oxygen? Who is worthy to get medical resources or free healthcare or free education? How do we value a life and how are people's lives valued? Then when you take that to a country level, who gets what from a country? So as a person of faith,
I wanted to write a chapter that honored Dr. Khan, but then the bigger questions too of how should we value people if we are believers of, you know, of the Bible or of what Jesus says. So it was a hard chapter to write. I also wanted to, that mission organization of the two people that got medevacked out were part of Samaritan's Purse, and I had been a vocal.
I spoke against Franklin Graham's aspect, how he was treating the pandemic very vocally. So everybody knows what I think about that. I also have really good friends that work at Samaritan's Purse. So it's not about the missions agency. It's about some people having friends in very high places with a whole lot of money to help people in need while others don't and asking the question of why.
Ian (46:41.255)Mm-hmm.
Ian (46:56.823)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (46:59.906)Hmm.
Ian (47:00.07)And I love how you bring it back to equity. Cause that, as you said, that's what this is all about. And which again is very tragic, right? But, um, I wanted to shift if I can, there was another thing I just wanted to, there was a quote that I loved is at the end of the chapter on, um, let's see, which one was this broadening our definition of health. When you're talking about the good Samaritan, I just wanted to read it out. Cause I, I just loved it. I read it to my wife.
Emily Smith (47:08.468)Right.
Emily Smith (47:23.849)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (47:24.184)Hmm.
Ian (47:30.522)And I just was really happy with this one. But you say blast paragraph, by the way, did the Samaritan tell the man the gospel or preach to him or hand out a tract? The parable doesn't tell us anything like that. I have a hunch Jesus would have mentioned it if it were important to the point he was making at the time, but he didn't. What he modeled for us with, with this story as being a neighbor and word indeed. And I actually was on a zoom meeting with, uh, my priest. It was last Wednesday. So, you know,
nine days ago and other lay leaders in our church. And I just was telling them that we were interviewing you and then read that to them because I really part of my struggle is when people the certainty aspect of things that they this is the way we're supposed to behave. Or, you know, it's my way or the highway when it comes to being a person of faith. And I just love that you pointed that out of just there. That's not in there. And you were right. Right. When I read it, I just was like, oh, my gosh, that's yeah.
Emily Smith (48:16.905)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (48:22.902)Hmm.
Ian (48:28.554)Like that's a great lens to take to it. To show that was not the purpose. And I loved that. And I just, oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Emily Smith (48:28.821)Yeah.
Emily Smith (48:34.272)Right. Well, don't you think he would have put it in there? I mean, Jesus is super duper smart. Yeah, I mean, he's he was very sneaky and intentional with the parables and how he told the stories. So I think he would have let us know that we needed to put a track in there before we gave people health care. But gosh, I mean, unconditional love is not conditional on viewing people as projects or
Ian (48:47.68)Yeah.
Emily Smith (49:01.196)proselytizing. So I just wanted, especially in the evangelical church, to, you know, we do things with, or we should do things just out of a goodness of heart. Because we're, I mean, it says in the Bible too, when we do these, you do it unto me. When you take care of the poor and feed and clothe, then you take, you do it for him. And so I keep in, I think keeping that perspective, I think we should do more of it in the evangelical church for sure.
Zack Jackson (49:31.903)You mentioned the evangelical church. You have a chapter in here called Topics Too Many Evangelicals Don't Want to Talk About. I would expand that to topics that Christians in general don't talk enough about. What sorts of things should we be talking about in our faith communities?
Emily Smith (49:38.932)Sure.
Emily Smith (49:43.315)Yes.
Emily Smith (49:50.2)Yes, I wrote that because when I got back from that UN meeting that I was, I told you about earlier, you know, I'm a pastor's wife and so we get in there for Sunday school and somebody called me a socialist and I did not know, I didn't know how to respond because it caught me so much off guard that wait a minute, I just told you we were talking about like poverty, you know, we can all agree that that's a problem and let's help. So I, it
Ian (50:03.441)Mm-hmm.
Zack Jackson (50:04.074)Hahaha
Emily Smith (50:17.564)it made me realize we need a conversation about what some of these topics are. It also came out of the pandemic, you know, when I would talk about structural violence or systemic racism or Black Lives Matter, climate change, there was such this hubbub of we don't want to talk about it or overtones of we just don't go there. But I think when we hold those to the sky, they reflect heaven
So I wanted to make, the whole first part of the book is on that, how to talk about that in non-threatening but challenging ways still. Then that last chapter on making the connections between climate change and poverty and the margins to try to at least let pastors know, talk about it from the pulpit. And here are some ways that you can talk about it where you don't have to scream.
You know, you don't have to come across as a crazy liberal if you're in a predominantly Republican Texas type church. But they are holy words because they are equity words. So that's what that chapter is about. Thank you for bringing that up. I chuckled at the title.
Ian (51:33.75)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (51:34.598)It made me chuckle too as an evangelical who's been, well, former evangelical who's been accused of all kinds of things that, you know, is Jesus taught me, you know. I have a shirt that says, um, cast down the mighty, lift up the oppressed, uh, feed the hungry, send the rich away empty handed. And I often get accused of like Marxism for that. And I say,
Emily Smith (51:44.86)Yeah. Right.
Ian (51:45.438)Yeah. So then how good.
Emily Smith (52:01.236)Oh sure, yeah.
Zack Jackson (52:02.294)That's the Magnificat. Mary says that. Hahaha.
Emily Smith (52:06.953)Right. Or Jesus' first sermon, you know, when he rolls out the scroll from Isaiah, that is full of captives free and the oppressed and yeah. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (52:11.465)Mmm.
Zack Jackson (52:16.35)Yeah, good news to the poor. Yeah.
Ian (52:18.43)Yeah. So kind of adding to that chapter in particular, you know, the pandemic, you know, there was already lots of divisions in our society, obviously pandemic, I believe made it much worse and more in our face. And so I'm curious, you know, especially as someone who does work with, uh, trying to figure out ways to combat misinformation, science misinformation in particular. Um,
Emily Smith (52:33.546)Yeah.
Ian (52:46.878)with either from my education lens or just research or work I do. You know, I started when you started seeing the, uh, the increased hesitancy around the vaccine, um, that really started raising a lot of flags for me of like, this is not ending that we're going to see this. This is going to, you know, spread to hesitancies and laws against other vaccines that have made it so that diseases that have been eradicated from our country.
solely because of those vaccines, those will come back. Um, and so I'm just curious, you know, the white evangelical community has a lot of power. And so how can one start to have conversations with those communities? You know, I've never been a member, so I know it'd be hard for me, but you were a member and you went through a lot because of what you were trying to do. How, how do we get back in to be able to figure out ways to work with those communities to build that trust again?
Emily Smith (53:45.577)Yeah.
Ian (53:45.598)Right. And to help them realize that the science is not there to get them. It's not evil. It's trying to save lives. I mean, that's the point. And so how would you recommend we do that?
Emily Smith (53:55.209)Yeah.
Emily Smith (53:59.884)I wonder if I would recommend something different if I answered this question in five years because I still feel like it's too close. But I think one of the biggest things is knowing who is actually going to have a conversation with you and who is not and having the wisdom to just leave the room or leave a church. Like it's okay. We don't leave a church because we don't like the color of the carpet. You know, I'm not that type of Christian. But
Zack Jackson (54:16.215)Hmm.
Emily Smith (54:29.668)If there are real equity things and faith issues, I think it is okay to leave a church. So if, I don't know, leave friends, lose friends. I know that's hard when there are kids and youth and some people have to stick with it. If you do stay and you're trying to have these conversations, I would be really careful to guard your heart on what you let in and...
what you hear because it can pummel you, which is why I wanted to write some of that cost section so vulnerably. I wish I would have known a little bit more, maybe it wouldn't have been so bad if I would have had some of the wisdom to not go to every fight that I was invited to. So, and there's a chapter on that, on the wisdom of Nehemiah having that type. Yeah, thank you. I would also...
Ian (55:18.172)Mm-hmm.
Ian (55:21.566)Yeah, I liked that chapter a lot. That's very good.
Emily Smith (55:27.56)tell people to be very cognizant, to pay attention to people who are not learning or listening anymore. Because the evangelical church has an incredible amount of power, always have. You know, like faith and prayer at football games where I grew up was still going on in the 90s and 2000s. It's probably still going on.
Ten Commandments. And so we think that should be the norm or the centered of everything else when it actually shouldn't. And if somebody can understand why I just said that and why it matters, that's a person who listens. If others just dig in their heels more and we want the good old days, but don't realize those good old days were awful for a wide group of like Black Americans, any immigrants, then we've missed the point.
So I think I'm, I don't think I'm answering your question. I think I'm telling people to be careful. Yeah, and also just to, there's this whole notion in the evangelical space that we just need to come together and get along. And that phrase really bothers me because that inherently denotes that there are two sides that need to come together, that both are weighted equally. And in that case, sure, let's come together because that's the center, but.
Ian (56:23.878)No, you are. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (56:26.402)Yeah.
Emily Smith (56:48.84)When you have two sides and one is their voices have had the microphone longer than another side, it's time to equal out that balance where both sides can be heard. And that is still just certainly not going on, especially with science.
Zack Jackson (57:00.034)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (57:04.766)Right. So it's less about finding the middle point between two things and more thinking about it like a binary star system where the one that is the center of gravity has to do with the relative mass of each one. And so a big star and a small star, the center of gravity is going to be closer to the big star because that's where the mass is. And when we're talking about
Emily Smith (57:27.37)Yeah.
Zack Jackson (57:31.866)On this side, we have a climatologist, and on this side, we have your uncle on Facebook. Then, the center of gravity is not going to be in the middle of those two things, right?
Emily Smith (57:38.636)Sure.
Ian (57:41.931)Right.
Emily Smith (57:42.948)Yes, or even in, I'm working with some indigenous communities in Brazil and listening a lot longer as a researcher of what their health needs are, including how to overcome them. So talking with traditional healers and valuing and honoring where people's stories are and their needs more than maybe a preconceived idea of what I think it should be.
Zack Jackson (58:00.75)Hmm.
Ian (58:13.098)Well, we are. Yeah. Well, so I just had a couple of smaller questions if that's all right. Um, and I just appreciate your time really do. But, so I'm curious, especially for you with your expertise, you know, as we reflect back on COVID-19 and this pandemic, um, it's natural for us to think about what we could have done differently. And I'm curious what your thoughts on that, but also too, what can we learn from this to better prepare?
Zack Jackson (58:13.266)We're nearing the end. So if you want to.
Emily Smith (58:19.584)Good.
Ian (58:43.542)for future outbreaks of infectious diseases. Cause I might say another pandemic's gonna happen right away, but there will be outbreaks of infectious diseases. We know that. And so I'm just curious, what are the things that we can learn from this to try to do more preventative measures in the future? Like what would you recommend?
Emily Smith (59:03.083)Yeah.
recommend starting a conversation on trust in people's expertise instead of feeling like you're the expert on everything, which is a classic American thought. You know, we're very individualistic and so I think that could start, that's very 30,000 foot, but trust the experts. But then finding the community champions within the communities that are speaking
from a place of their own. You know, I think that's why part of why I went viral is because I was speaking into my own community. I knew the language. I loved the church. I understood what pastors and their families were going through. So if you can find those and that means, you know, if we have distrust in some sort of science or the vaccines, then find the communities where that distrust is and then find the people there that are the champions.
I just think it's a trust, it's a value issue. I know people don't like to hear about the political stuff, but who we vote for matters in very real ways on the ground, and we saw that. So I think having conversations about that too, you know, we are not voters of just one issue. If you are, that is going to trickle to a billion other types of issues.
Letting people, especially like my children, I've got a teenager telling her about the importance of who you vote for and why that matters.
Ian (01:00:43.958)So is there anything that you want to share? Anything else we should have asked but didn't?
Emily Smith (01:00:51.684)No, I mean, I hope if anything for the book, I hope that it makes people laugh. Because there's a lot of stories in there that hopefully are funny. There's really silly pictures from my science fair board. Please go look at that. It's fantastic and a little over the top. But I also hope it... Yes.
Zack Jackson (01:01:03.844)I'm going to go.
Ian (01:01:06.464)Yes.
Ian (01:01:12.402)I think the picture, if I can say the picture that you're staring at, I forgot who you're staring at, but you talk about that you have it. Uh, oh yeah. That picture of the board is great, but then the picture of you staring at somebody and you put, you have that framed on your desk. I, who was that again? I, I couldn't find that again in the book right now.
Emily Smith (01:01:21.33)Yes. It's.
Emily Smith (01:01:27.222)It's, yes, it's Dr. Tedros. He's the WHO president and I ran into him at the UN and that is my picture of me, like total fan girl moment with him. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (01:01:38.382)Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
Ian (01:01:39.851)It was hilarious. And I just, I mean, I'm sure we've all done it. I do that with people all the time, but yours was captured on camera. And I love that you framed it and have put it on your own desk because I just find that hilarious. Like that's just such a wonderful story.
Emily Smith (01:01:51.228)Yeah, I have-
Emily Smith (01:01:55.372)Well, I have one that's a real one. I mean, they took one where we're both looking at the camera, legit, but I just keep it, because it was how I felt at the time. And... Oh, I'd like to show the card. Oh, thank you.
Ian (01:02:05.662)When I love that you shared it with us, like I just, you know, I could totally envision it. And then all of a sudden I see the picture. I'm like, yeah, that's, that's what I was thinking. Like it just, that was really cool. Yeah.
Zack Jackson (01:02:07.53)Yeah.
Emily Smith (01:02:13.549)Yeah, this is a fangirl. Yeah. So.
Zack Jackson (01:02:15.55)Yeah. And a completely honest review for those who are listeners and who hopefully trust the things that we say and do is that this book is really heartfelt. It is fact filled and it is driven by story and your own personal experience instead of just, you know, here's a list of objective facts. And for me, that not only conveys truth.
in a way that is easier to digest, but also shows how authentic you are and how important this book is, how much of your own soul is encapsulated in this and how much of your own experience and growth from a young and idealistic nerd who's going to save the world, who gets jaded and cynical, but then finds hope and emerges on the other side stronger and
I think all of our listeners should find a copy at your local bookstore or if you have to on Amazon. Or listen to the audiobook which is recorded by you and that must have been a fun experience.
Emily Smith (01:03:25.176)Yes, it was fun. It's very hard to do too to just read it harder than expected, but it was fun to do.
Ian (01:03:29.703)I'm back.
Well, and if I can just add to that, I think that's a great, um, thumbs up there, Zach and recommendation for this book. I can't recommend it enough for people. I think it's an outstanding book. Um, I agree with everything Zach said, but I loved, I just absolutely loved that you couched it in the good Samaritan story. And also in Jesus, the second commandment to us about love, I neighbor as yourself. Um, right. And I just,
Reading the whole book. It just the theme was so clear throughout and it was such so beautifully woven throughout the entire book About the importance of loving our neighbors, which is something that I really push for In my class. I have my motto is be curious not judgmental because I'm a huge Ted Lasso fan and really talk about that of how much more we can accomplish by just being curious and I'm
Emily Smith (01:04:06.668)Good.
Zack Jackson (01:04:21.87)the
Emily Smith (01:04:22.093)Sure.
Ian (01:04:29.886)Zach will tell you, I'm an insatiably curious person. I'm curious about everything. Um, but I just, I really loved how you really continue to provide more argument on the importance of love in our neighbors and what, and I think this could, this book can change things. I'm, and you can, and I'm really happy that you joined us today.
Emily Smith (01:04:42.804)Thank you.
Emily Smith (01:04:50.272)Thank you. What a pleasure. We've been circling each other for a while. Um, on trying to-
Ian (01:04:56.126)Yeah, because you and I are only a couple of hours apart. I mean, you're in Durham, right? And I'm in Charlotte, so yeah.
Emily Smith (01:05:00.204)I know, I know, just pop on down there to UNC is where I got my PhD so I can do both blues.
Ian (01:05:07.178)Yeah, my wife went to Chapel Hill. So yeah, yeah. So anyway.
Emily Smith (01:05:09.116)Okay, there you go. Lovely. Well, this has been a pleasure. Thank you for the honesty and it being just a kind of a safe space to talk about a book. My first book, yeah. Thank you.
Zack Jackson (01:05:22.967)Hmm.
Ian (01:05:23.122)Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. I've loved it.
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Episode 119
Today, we are joined by paleontologist, Dr. Mary Schweitzer. She is professor in the department of biological sciences at North Carolina State University. She is also a research curator for paleontology at the North Carolina Museum of Natural Sciences. Her research interests include molecular paleontology, specifically the preservation and detection of original molecular fragments in well preserved fossil specimens. In 2005 she and her team shook the paleontology community when they reported finding soft tissue preserved in a 68-million-year-old T-Rex femur. Since that initial find, her team has unearthed mounting evidence that soft tissues, such as blood vessels, collagen and other proteins, can survive more than 66 million years of degradation. Fun fact, on one of her fossil hunts she spent three days in the field walking around on a broken leg because she didn’t want to miss out on anything.
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 118
In part 20 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with the Rev Dr Vikki Gaskin-Butler.
She is a licensed psychologist (clinical and health psychology) and ordained clergy person. She received her bachelor’s degree in psychology from Spelman College and her Master of Science and Ph.D. in psychology from the University of Florida. She also received a Master of Divinity degree from the Candler School of Theology at Emory University.
She guest has served as a psychologist in university counseling centers, clinic director in an interfaith-based counseling center, and as director of a university psychology clinic. She has supervised numerous students in pursuit of psychology, mental health counseling, and social work degrees. She has led clergy consultation groups and served as a consultant with church/church-affiliated and secular organizations. In addition, she has served as a minister of education and an associate pastor in local churches.
She draws on her knowledge of human potential from her experience as a psychologist and ordained clergy person to support the psychological, spiritual, and physical well-being of all people. Through her first-hand knowledge of life as a wife, mother, musician, professor, clinician, and minister, she has the insight to support the needs of adults, including performing artists, clergy, and health professionals.
In her words: "My passion is to constantly move toward my own divine potential. Throughout this journey, I have experienced struggle, doubt, grief, joy, peace, and all of the emotions that make us human. These emotions and the experiences connected with them have made me more whole as I followed the thread of healing to freedom. These emotional experiences have also created within me a deep well of compassion for others as they journey on their paths to health and wholeness."
You can listen to her last Down the Wormhole episode here...
https://www.downthewormhole.com/e/womanist-psychology-of-religion-with-rev-dr-vikki-gaskin-butler/
Also be sure to check out her podcast and all her other work here...
https://www.drvikki.org/
Sinai and Synapses - https://sinaiandsynapses.org/
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 117
Today, we are joined by the one and only Rev. Dr. Pamela Conrad. is the rector of St. Alban’s Episcopal Church in Glen Burnie, Maryland. She’s also an astrobiologist and planetary scientist specializing in understanding how planets do or do not evolve into habitable environments, and she is presently involved in the exploration of Mars with the Perseverance Rover and its companion, the Ingenuity helicopter. She has explored extreme environments all over the Earth including in the high arctic, Antarctica, Death Valley, and the deep sea hydrothermal vents of the Pacific sea floor, to name a few.
We talk about life on other planets, cherishing life on this planet, the future of the church, the lessons we can learn from entropy, and so much more.
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 116
In part 19 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Emily Gerdin. She was raised in two faiths growing up (Judaism & Protestantism), and her interfaith upbringing inspired her to study how minds are shaped by religious worldviews. She is a PhD candidate in developmental psychology at Yale University, studying how children conceive of religious groups as sometimes similar to other social categories in the world (e.g., race, gender, nationality) and sometimes very, very different.
Sinai and Synapses - https://sinaiandsynapses.org/
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 115
In part 18 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Dr Stephen Burgin. He is an associate professor of secondary science education at the University of Arkansas. His research interests focus on the authentic practices employed by professional scientists and how school science can more closely approximate that work. As an evangelical Christian preparing preservice secondary science teachers in the southern United States, Dr. Burgin is uniquely positioned to help his students and those he comes into contact with grapple with their relationship to both science and faith.
Sinai and Synapses - https://sinaiandsynapses.org/
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 114
In part 17 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Tyler J Fuller. Tyler is a Ph.D. student in the Graduate Program in Religion at Boston University. He is a sociologist of religion and a health educator. His research interests focus on the social scientific study of religion, health-seeking behaviors, and faith-based health education and promotion.
Sinai and Synapses - https://sinaiandsynapses.org/
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 113
Today, we are joined by astronomer, author, speaker, and Director of the Vatican Observatory, Guy Consolmagno! We talk about asteroid mining, the ethics of renewable energy, alien spirituality, and why the Vatican has an observatory in southern Arizona.
https://www.vaticanobservatory.org/
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 112
In part 16 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Dr. Richard Middleton. Dr. Middleton is Professor of Biblical Worldview and Exegesis at Northeastern Seminary in Rochester, NY. He is past president of the Canadian Society of Biblical Studies (2019–2021) and the Canadian-American Theological Association (2011–2014). His most recent book is Abraham’s Silence: The Binding of Isaac, the Suffering of Job, and How to Talk Back to God (Baker Academic, 2021). We talk about the freedom and wisdom that comes from letting the Bible be what the Bible is. What is the point of Job? Does God really need all that praise? How does paleoanthropology inform our reading of scripture?
https://jrichardmiddleton.com/
Sinai and Synapses - https://sinaiandsynapses.org/
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 111
We're back! After an unannounced and unexpected hiatus, we are back with new episodes, interviews, and surprises. Today, we sit down with neurotheologian, research scientist, and best-selling author Dr. Andrew Newberg. We talk about the neurological mechanics of spiritual experiences, the origin of religion, psychedelics, mysticism, and the "infinite regressive doubt" that brings him spiritual peace. Don't miss this one!
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 110
Let's all geek out about the James Webb Space telescope!!!
If you haven't seen the first five pictures that NASA released from Webb, make sure you check them out here...
https://www.nasa.gov/webbfirstimages
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 109
Do prayers for healing work? Do "thoughts and prayers" actually have a measurable effect on a sick person? What should we be praying for anyway, and are we missing unique opportunities for spiritual growth? Rachael is our guide this week as we navigate scientific studies, Jewish prayers, and the difference between being "healed" and "cured".
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 108
In part 15 of our Sinai and Synapses interview series, we are talking with Dr. Joseph Shane. He teaches us how to navigate contentious spaces, how to communicate across the pews, and how to have a more gentle existential crisis. My favorite line from this episode is, "Evolve your faith or hasten its irrelevance". You're going to need to listen to the whole episode to get the context of that, though!
Dr. Joseph Shane is Professor of Chemistry and Science Education at Shippensburg University. In addition to his responsibilities to chemistry and teacher education, he teaches an honors seminar on interactions between science and religion and conducts outreach to regional churches and public venues. He was the lead editor and contributor to a book to assist science teachers in addressing topics with religious implications, Making Sense of Science and Religion: Strategies for the Classroom and Beyond, which was published through the National Science Teaching Association (NSTA) in 2019. He is also an Elder and youth Sunday school teacher at First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA) in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.
Sinai and Synapses - https://sinaiandsynapses.org/
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 107
Do you remember that brief "anthropause" in 2020 when billions of people stayed inside due to COVID? Do you remember seeing dolphins in Venice and wolves wandering the streets of NYC? Most of those stories were fake, but they were so believable because that's how nature works. It heals, it rebounds, and it finds a way. So in this episode, we want to take a look at what makes nature so resilient, what we can learn from it, and what our place is within it. We're talking asteroids, cosmic flowers, and divine intervention.
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
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Episode 106
We are thrilled to be joined today by author, speaker, and public theologian, Brian McLaren. His new book, "Do I Stay Christian?: A Guide for the Doubters, the Disappointed, and the Disillusioned" is an absolute must-read for any Christian struggling to make sense of things in this crazy world we live in. We talk about creating hope, fighting white supremacy, re-wilding Christianity, and the playful joy of reimagining religion.
Speaking of reimagining religion, have you checked out Zack's new podcast with his wife Nichole, "Reimagining Faith with the Pastors Jackson"? If you enjoy DtW (and of course you do), then you should check it out!
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
TranscriptThis transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
Zack Jackson 00:04
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. Our guest today is an author, speaker, activist and public theologian. He is the author of over 15 books including faith after doubt, a generous orthodoxy and a new kind of Christian which got me in a whole lot of trouble at my home church 20 years ago, his new book do I stay Christian, a guide for the doubters, the disappointed and the disillusioned is an absolute must read for any Christian struggling to make sense of things in this crazy world we live in is an absolute joy and honor to welcome to the podcast, Brian McLaren. Oh, joy
Brian McLaren 00:45
and honor for me to be with you guys. So, so glad to be here.
Zack Jackson 00:49
Yes, I was thrilled to death to get that the email confirming that you had time in your very busy schedule to be with us today. We're all big fans, and I'm sure a lot of folks on the of our listenership likewise.
Brian McLaren 01:03
Well, hey, and I gotta say, now that I know about you guys, I'm your fan as well. And, you know, this subject of the inner interaction between faith and science, my goodness, so important these days. So really happy to be in this conference. Yes, thank you.
Zack Jackson 01:21
I love the way that you weave these two things together in your writings, by the way, and I've noticed it really in the past 10 years worth of books are so it seems, it seems almost effortless that every once in a while you're just gonna get some reference in there to evolution, some reference in there to the cosmic origins of the universe, it just seems like it is. It is always somewhere in the back of your mind.
Brian McLaren 01:45
Well, it's Yeah. And maybe I could say it this way. Without science. I don't think I could be a Christian. So. So yeah, I can't imagine how anyone would want to have a faith that were they had to keep their faith in one compartment. And then everything else. Another compartment compartments, right. Yeah.
Zack Jackson 02:10
Well, that's a sound clip that I'll definitely Absolutely. So Ian and I have been talking a lot recently about your new book, which when the time this podcast launches will have been released yesterday, so available to all of your major retailers. So this book, which is just so helpfully entitled, do I stay Christian? answers that question, which I think a lot of folks have had over the past couple of years, especially. But it's it's very helpfully organized into three sections, the answer that question that? No, I will not stay Christian. And here's why. Yes, I will stick it out and stay Christian. And the last section is how, which of those sections is taking up the most real estate in your mind? And in your day to day life?
Brian McLaren 03:03
Well, let's see. I think all of them jostle for the top position. But I think actually, the writing of this book propelled the third question up in importance. Because in the writing of this book, I realized it's just inevitable. Some people cannot stay Christian, the religion is killing them. It's damaging them, they need to get away at least for a time. And, and other people will stay Christian, it's who they are, and how could they deny who they are? And, and then what I realized is, even whatever you decide on staying Christian, you have to wake up the next morning, and ask what kind of a human being am I going to be? And that I hope that the Reading of the book helps lift the importance of that question up for everybody.
Ian Binns 04:02
Well, and I, you know, Brian, I really appreciated that aspect of the book. And as I said, Before recording, I absolutely loved the book, you know, so for me, I don't have the kind of historical experiences that I know, Brian, you talk about in your books, and that Zach has had and talked about before, the feeling I needed to leave, like, deconstruct and then come back or anything like that. But one of the things that I've always struggled with, is and you you do so well, in the first several chapters, when the answer to your question is no, you know, those chapters explaining No, just really stood out for me. And so but sorry, I know, I'm rambling. This is normal for me. But at the end, I loved as you just said, to connect it back to what kind of human do we want to be? You know, I tell people a lot when they question, my faith, because I'm open with my doubts and questions and the idea of a literal resurrection. I think those are all questions and doubts I have. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to resolve them yet. But I think I prefer to think of it as that I want to live my life, fighting for what Jesus fought for,
Brian McLaren 05:12
what a great way to what a great way to sit.
Ian Binns 05:15
Right? And so if it's more of that's the way I live, I don't have to stand on a rooftop and scream, everyone be a Christian. It's more of a this is the life I want to live. And I love that you did that.
Brian McLaren 05:26
And isn't it ironic that major sectors of the Christian religion are really uninterested, whether you want to fight for the things Jesus fought for, they're really interested in whether you will check certain boxes, agreeing with their authority figures about what you're supposed to say about Jesus. So I just can't help but think that Jesus would be happier with someone who's ready to join him in the struggle with his word for that was follow me, then then have certain opinions about me. In fact, you know, there's that password thing in the Gospels where he says, You know, I really don't care if you call Me Lord, Lord, I mean, what difference does that make the words you use about me? If you don't do what I say so?
Ian Binns 06:10
All right. Well, and in this book, and also to in your podcast, learning how to see, you start off talking about something that was very close to me. So I got my PhD from the University of Virginia. And so I was in my wife and I were in Charlottesville was the first place we really lived as a young married couple. Were there for 208. And so when the the situation happened in Charlottesville in August of 2017, that was very challenging for us, because the grounds of UVA are places I spent four years of my life that we love that town. And so that was very challenging for us. And then hearing you on your podcast and Reading this book. I would love to, if you could talk more about that experience. Because I didn't realize you were there. And so I just curious if you can kind of talk about that. Yeah.
Brian McLaren 07:04
Well, the story of how I ended up there was kind of interesting, I had introduced this couple to each other who ended up getting married, and both were seminary graduates. And so they were a ministry couple in Charlottesville, and they contacted me and they said, Look, Brian, we you may not have even heard about this. And I hadn't it it turns out, you know, before, was it August 10. I forgotten the date now. Whatever the date was, in August, they'd had a series of Ku Klux Klan rallies, it was like it. A lot of people don't know this. But there is a group of people who are planning for a civil war. And they want to make Charlottesville the capital of the new Confederacy.
Ian Binns 07:46
I did not know that part.
Brian McLaren 07:48
Yeah, it's scary. And it's crazy stuff. But and, and yet very disturbing. And they said, so a really big one is coming in August. And we're we're trying to get clergy to come support us, and to stand with us. And they said, we're finding a lot of clergy of color. And we're finding a lot of women, clergy who will come we're really finding it hard to get white male clergy to come. And of course, there's a big supply of them, but they just couldn't get them to come. So they said it. They said, Is there any chance you could come you need to know it's going to be dangerous, there going to be a lot of guns there. Several militia have already signed up to be there. And they'll all come heavily armed. And I said, I'm not going to tell that last part to my wife. But yes, I would be honored to be there. Actually, she knew that there would be some danger. And she made me make certain promises to her about what I would do and not to when I was there, but it was just an experience I'll never forget first seeing how organized these folks were. They were super, super highly organized. I was invited into a meeting an Antifa meeting of people who were organizing to try to not let these folks sort of rule the city for a day. And I never thought in my lifetime, I would see people carrying Confederate flags, and Nazi flags and a bunch of other flags along with Bibles and other Christian paraphernalia. I never thought I would see that. And of course, and I happen to be just up the street when Heather hair and other was killed and others were injured by a guy using a car as a terrorist weapon to drive through a crowd. And a group of us clergy went I was wearing you know, black leather shoes and I just remember the feeling of my feet slapping against the ground as I ran down this hill into this crowd where there's chaos and people screaming and crying. And so an experience I'll never forget. But then January 6 2021 happened and I just thought there they are again, you know, and in between, I'd organized an a public An event here in Florida where I live, where we had been, our event was disrupted in the entrances were blocked by the proud boys. So I yeah, this has been a big part of my experience and watching the complicity of major sectors of the Christian faith with these folks has been the AI, it's highly significant in the way I wrote this book, do I stay Christian? Because I feel like that I wish I'd put the sentence in the book. But it only became clear to me actually, in the last few days, that one of the reasons I wrote the book the way I did, and I took those first 10 chapters to really take the No seriously is because I am worried that those 10 chapters give a kind of overview of some of Christianity's crimes. And through the centuries, I'm worried that the worst things Christianity has ever done will be exceeded in the next few years. And that's why I feel anyone who stays Christian, better be aware of the danger that our religion poses to this world and to many of our neighbors. And that then puts a kind of responsibility on us to say, if I'm going to inhabit this religion, I better take responsibility for trying to stand up to some of the harm that it is in danger of doing and not just in danger of doing it is actually doing, you know, as we speak, no, yeah.
Zack Jackson 11:29
I mean, we're not just complicit in the rise and spread of white supremacy. Western Christianity is the author of white supremacy, it is very much our child. And it is completely inseparably intertwined with Western Christianity as we know it. And so this is not an issue for the black church to figure out or to lead us in. This is not an issue for people of color to be taking charge. This is our problem, our sin and our need to, to work on to fix to fight. And you're somebody who's been at the frontlines of that. It seems, what what can the rest of us do us white Christians out here? How can we help fight the scourge? I mean, just look, even as we're recording this, we just, we just witnessed another white supremacist, killed 10 people in a buffalo grocery store. And by the time that this podcast launches, who knows? We'll have there will be another one. It just seems like we're just spinning our wheels. Yes.
Brian McLaren 12:31
Well, let me say first, I really agree with you that white Christians really have a responsibility right now. And one of our responsibilities is to listen to the cries and the agony and the frustration of our neighbors of color. who are who are just, you know, who can blame them for saying, you know, if they hear thoughts and prayers one more time, you know, I mean, it's just, it's just, yeah. So here's what one thing I think we can do, I think we can all make a commitment that we will never let a racially harmful statement go unchallenged. And, and I think we have to learn how to challenge them in ways that don't create a worst blowback. But silence is its own vote of confidence, and its own voters support for outrageous, immoral, harmful, dangerous statements. So my little recommendation to people is that you've developed your own version of this five word statement, here's my version of it. Wow, I see that differently. It's instead of, you know, you're such a bigot, you're, it's I see that differently. I throw a while in there, because I want to add a little bit of emotional intense intensity without having to yell or scream. Wow, I see that differently. And almost every time I say that, people say, What do you mean? What do you mean? And if it's in public, I say I say to them, I'd rather talk to you about this in private. If you'd like to ask me about it in private some other time, I'll be glad to talk to you. And the reason I say that, and there might be times to have the conversation in public. But what I've noticed is that anytime these conversations happen in public egos are so involved, people are defending themselves, people are performing their loyalty to whatever group it is. And so it seldom becomes an act of communication, and usually becomes the kind of argument that hardens people and their positions. And I would like to be someone who helps little cracks form in their position or, or helps soften their position. And if if I can set up the terms of that discussion, then I'll say to them, if you're ever curious about why I see things differently and how like came to see things differently. I'll be glad to have that conversation with you and private. Just let me know when you'd like to know how I came to see things differently, because I'm not asking them to tell me how they see things. I'll listen respectfully if they want. But I've been listening respectfully, that's what got us into this situation. And so while I see that differently is my, my mantra in these circumstances?
Ian Binns 15:27
Well, that's very disarming, I
Brian McLaren 15:29
think, and I go, and I feel it's honest, and it's not aggressive. But it also is an act of protest. And it's just an act of deferring boldly, hopefully, graciously, non hatefully, you know? Yeah. And frankly, I'll just say, frankly, late in the book there, in that house section of the book, there's a chapter called, announce and renounce, or renounce and announce, and in some ways, it's the same thing. It's, it's, it's having more and more of us just have the courage to say, I am not where you are. And to do it in a way that says, It's not that I hate you. It's not that I am going to insult you. In fact, I'm going to just state in a way that says, I don't, I'm nothing's changing in our relationship, but I'm not where you are. If that creates a problem for you, then we'll deal with it. But I need to let you know I can be at a different place than you are. So I thought
Ian Binns 16:31
that story you told in that chapter about John Ray and Amanda was really powerful. And one of the phrases that stood out, it was after early on in the story. When John Ray comes back to Amanda and says, I was confronted by your father for 20 minutes. And the phrase that you use in the book was he felt that he was in the presence of Christian hate? Yes. And I thought that was just just those four words, or five words. Yeah, forward presence of Christian hate just really kind of caught me of because I feel like that's what we're seeing a lot of right now.
Brian McLaren 17:08
Yes, yes. And of course, Christians will say, that's not hate, that's love. And they, and they're satisfied with that. But there is something really ugly going on. It's just ugly. And I've experienced that. And my gosh, when you're on Twitter, and Facebook, you know, I grew up fundamentalist. And part of being a fundamentalist is you didn't cuss? And you didn't use crude language. And you you felt this obligation to be decent and, and respectful. But my gosh, the profanity and I mean, it's just, it's just shocking to me to see what what people are doing in the name of Jesus, and it's all sort of acceptable. And of course, some of this is because they're imitating their new leader, you know, Donald Trump, who's, in a sense, the new leader of their denomination that has that has newly formed and, and, and part of this is just stuff that's been in the American psyche for a long time, and maybe we're better with a profanity, because it's, you know, somebody said, what I mentioned, I've had a lot of interactions with the proud boys, they said, there, it's just the kk k with that, and the sheets are off. And I think that's, there's some truth to that. So this is a historical reckoning, that needed to happen. So better now than not letting it happen, you know, letting it fester for another 100 years.
Zack Jackson 18:35
Yeah, that chapter, which kind of tells the story of a couple whose ideologies had changed, their faith had changed, and they hadn't really let their family know, which I think a lot of folks who have deconstructed can relate to because they're going to, they're afraid of then being renounced by their family. And she gathers up the courage after her husband has been sort of accosted for 20 minutes to go up and just tell her father, this is how it's going to be from here on out. And you talked about that in terms of a coming out story for her. And that framing, I think is really helpful. And something that queer theologians, this gift that they have given us, this idea of coming out, it is a vulnerable experience, in which you can be hurt in all new ways. But it is such an empowering experience. I read one, one theologian referred to John one as God's coming out that Jesus is incarnation is him, showing who he truly is to the world and offering up himself to be either accepted in new ways or hurt in all new ways. And I honestly had never understood the Incarnation until then. But this idea that those of us us who are straight sis hetero folks who have never had the need to come out to people to tell them, This is how you have perceived me. But this is how I truly am. We've just always been known for who we are, that this is something that we we should learn, that we should need to love louder than the hate and that we need to be more vocal. It's not enough to just love on our own, but that we need to love loudly and outwardly. Yeah,
Brian McLaren 20:30
another little saying that has kind of been sitting with me lately is I would rather be rejected for who I am then accepted for who I am not.
Ian Binns 20:39
And I wrote that down. Well, like I, I want to tattoo that on my arm or something, because I think that's such a powerful phrase. It really is.
Brian McLaren 20:47
And I think what one of the things that just saying it that way helps me do is realize that the fear of rejection has so much power over so many of us. And as someone who's experienced a bit of rejection. And now I know Zach has led to other people to being rejected. But, but it's, it's not the end of the world. It's not the worst thing that ever happens to you. In fact, some pretty amazing positive things happen can happen in the experience of rejection. So And isn't it interesting in the gospels, this is really a major theme of Jesus teaching. Hey, guys, if you take seriously what I'm saying, you're gonna be rejected, here's what's gonna happen and it and then we're surprised when it happens.
Zack Jackson 21:39
Right? The high priest is gonna block you on Twitter at this point. And
Ian Binns 21:44
well, and I think you mentioning the rejection, the fear of rejection, I mean, that's something that cripples me at times, you know, with my own work of wanting to write, as an academic for more public audience, it, it, something that holds me back quite a bit. And Reading, you know, your book has helped and then also Rob Bell's work as well as helping me remember that it's not, I cannot control people's reactions to my work in my message.
Brian McLaren 22:14
And so we're writing about things that matter than then there are things that people have strong opinions about, and they have vested interests in. And so of course, there'll be pushback, like, you know, every once in awhile, I have to sit down with myself and just say, of course, people would get upset. What were you expecting to get a Nobel Prize? You know, of course. So, yeah, that's just the territory. And it's, it's, it's part of the privilege of talking about things that really matter and, and working on things then that matter. So I like that doesn't it doesn't make it easy, but it does, I think it is, it's something we have to do that helps us navigate through those first few experiences of rejection, that that can either scar us for life or become our hazing. For for a member membership, and a new, a new community.
Zack Jackson 23:19
And I've experienced a lot of the dirty underbelly of the Christian church growing up in, in the back rooms of the church, and then being a part of church leadership, the first 10 chapters of your book, where you talk about all the reasons why you should leave Christianity. I, at the end of every chapter, I thought to myself, I know where he's going. I know there's a there's a part two, but I'm almost ready to just like, just close the book here and be like, yeah, no, he does have a point, why should I be a part of this and re even Reading part two, a couple chapters in where you're talking about why we should stay Christian. And I thought, these don't quite outweigh yet in my mind, where, where Part one was. And then then I hit chapter 14. And you asked us to consider an anticipatory Christianity that is leaning towards the future. And I love that phrase so much. I highlighted it, I wrote it down. And anticipatory Christianity because it describes the stance towards the future in which that doesn't necessarily claim that everything in the future is better than everything in the past that we're evolving into something better, just something different to newer and maybe better adapted. Would you care to unpack that phrase for us? Yeah. Wow. That is bringing you life and older.
Brian McLaren 24:46
There's a lot of ways to do it. But a kind of fun way is to say that both in religion and science, a lot of us inherited a religion, where the Locus of Power was always in the past. So So the, you know, the big bang happens. And I bet most of us have seen this in a science movie somewhere. And it's like somebody's playing pool and they hit the cue ball and the cue ball hits the rack of, you know, balls, and everything is action reaction being driven from the past. And that describes, that's one way of looking at the universe. It's one way of describing the universe. But there's another way to look at it to say, to think of the Locus of Power, not just being in the past, but actually being the future itself, that opens, that constantly gives everything a chance to move in some new direction. And the way that theologians have talked about this is to say instead of thinking of God, pushing things out of the past into the future, imagine God in the distant future, inviting things to keep moving toward maturity. The one of the early church scholars, who is a very imaginative fellow, his name was Gregory of Nyssa. And Gregory, got in trouble with a lot of his fellow scholars, because they all bought into this idea of Greek philosophy that perfection is static, because perfection can only get worse, if it could change, it wouldn't be perfect. If it could change for the better, it wouldn't be perfect. So perfection is always static. And Gregory said, that's just not good enough. He said, perfection is infinite progression, this idea of an endlessly open future for endlessly new possibilities, you know, and so that way of thinking, instead of God's sort of being in control, either behind us or standing over us, it's God inviting us into greater freedom, and greater wholeness and greater maturity and greater relationship and greater diversity and greater beauty, which is actually what we see kind of unfolding in the universe, you know, there was no Mozart or Bob Dylan or Taylor Swift, you know, 4 billion years ago. And so these things, new things that you never ever would have anticipated, are baked into the possibilities and, and have chances to open up. So that's, and when we let that kind of almost scientific view, also have a theological expression. It helps us think about Christianity, not as something that is already set in concrete, but something that is, in its very early stages.
Zack Jackson 27:48
It is hard to think about Christianity in its early stages, 2000 years later, but that is, that can be helpful,
Ian Binns 27:56
if we can, you know, I think I said before we started recording that, especially Reading the first part of your book, where you're providing, you know, many reasons why the answer to your question will be no, that's when I was Reading it near my wife, and I would stop and be like, Oh, my God, I have to have to read this for you. So if I can read a quote to you, that just really stood out for me. And I just would love to get your thoughts on it a little bit more, but it's in the chapter. Because Christianity is a failed religion. And at the very end, you talk about, you know, you kind of are speaking to that your reader, obviously, of asking if that was harsh to them, for people to consider many of the things you've already shared. But you say if you persist in minimizing these failures of the past and brushing them aside as trivial matters, then please realize, to growing millions of people, you now represent the contemporary failure of Christianity to transform lives. To put it more bluntly, you are a living example of the failure of Christianity, and you are another reason for them not to stay Christian, which resonated with me. I mean, I probably I'm very emotional person. And I started crying when I read it, but it was just a, I'd love to know, how did that feel. As a leader in Christianity, many people look to you to write that sentence.
Brian McLaren 29:21
Yeah, I remember writing it and I and I have been in so many of those conversations. I won't mention this name just out of politeness, but a leader of people in my generation, and probably your generation would know his name. He died a few years ago, but he was super well known, highly respected on Christian radio and all that sort of thing. And we once had an email exchange and he gave me permission to go public with it, but I just couldn't do it. And in that email exchange, he said the Crusades weren't that serious. The Witch burnings were exaggerated, he just minimized every single thing. And I just thought to myself, you know, you think you're making Christianity look better. And something else I realized about him is that, for him, Christianity and Western civilization were fused together. And his defense of Christianity was a defense of Western civilization. And in that way, it was an act of aggression toward Muslims, and Buddhists and Hindus. And so it all sort of was of a piece, you know, and I think that's part of what so many of us just don't want to be part of anymore, we don't want to be part of that kind of dismissive defensive. Christianity. And, and, of course, you know, I'm not wanting to go around and vilify all these people of the past. I mean, they are what they are, and they did what they did. And, and, and if I'd been alive, I may have done many of the similar, similar things. But to say that the message of Jesus Christ should not have demanded more of people. It just feels to me like a pretty low opinion of the of Jesus and His message.
Ian Binns 31:21
Well, and as I said, early on to, you know, I try to live by his message and what he fought for, and died for, right. But one other thing you said a little bit earlier in the text, you said, you know, teaching others by their example, to live by Jesus's spiritual method of radical non discriminatory love and courageous truth telling, you know, that's gotten me in trouble at times. With some, and I don't do it nearly as much as I used to. And Zach has actually said, and some of my science education friends have said that they're really happy that I don't engage as much on Twitter, as I used to, partly because I was blocked by Ken Ham, who is still welcome to be on the show. But what I also have several friends who are members of the LGBTQ community, and who are people of faith, and I remember telling one of them one time when we were having a conversation about some of their struggles, and I just kind of said that I believe in a God who loves us for us. Yeah. And that if that makes me wrong, when I have to face God, it didn't my time. And I'm told that's not the way it works. My response to my friend was, I don't want to be there anyway. Like if that if that's what can get me into heaven. If Heaven is a place that they say, you messed up, you have to renounce that I'd say I'm going somewhere else.
Brian McLaren 32:49
Yes, that that God is not good enough. Right? That's just not good enough. My friend Tripp fuller says, Look, if if your view of God isn't half as nice as Jesus, there's something wrong. So, right,
Zack Jackson 33:06
how can Christians take Jesus and like, look at him in the Gospels? And then be like, All right, well, but at the end of it all, we're gonna meet scary God. And he's going to do the scary judge thing. While Jesus the guy, you know, the don't cast the first stone guy. He's just going to be in his room because he's a naughty boy or something. I don't know. Why is he not up on the jet like we can affirm that all members of the Trinity are of one substance, according to the ancient Creed's, but yet won't apply Jesus's examples of grace to the judgments that we fear from God, there
Brian McLaren 33:46
was a Quaker theologian who I just think captured what we're discussing right now. So aptly, he said, it was Elton Trueblood. And this isn't a quote, but this is sort of the substance of one of his ideas. He said, The Christian understanding of the deity of Christ did not mean that we had a definition of God. And Jesus came along and we lifted him up to that definition. He said, what this really is supposed to mean is that we had a definition of God. And Jesus came along, and we had to adjust our definition of God. And I think that's very well, I think that's very well said, I think that's what it should have been. I don't know if that is what happened historically. But I think that's how it should have been.
Zack Jackson 34:38
Yeah, if I can, if I can pivot here for a second. We've we've been on some heavy topics. I want to I want to lighten things up a little bit. I your chapter on rewilding ourselves and our faith and humanity itself was far and above my favorite chapter of the book. I highly They did. The basically the whole thing. It reminded me very much of a conversation those longtime listeners might remember, way back in 2020, episode 42 with Dr. Scott, the paleontologist from PBS, his dinosaur, I
Ian Binns 35:15
remembered it too. First thing I thought about called
Zack Jackson 35:19
reinventing the natural world was was his and his theory. And his, the whole devotion he has towards educating children is that in in order in order to save the world, from climate disaster from environmental disaster, we will not do that by better spreadsheets. Because nobody is apathetic because they don't know the facts. They're apathetic because they don't care. And so his entire life Miss mission is to help children fall back in love. I love to read and chant nature, and to get them outside. And even while watching television to then inspire them to go outside afterwards. Because when you fall in love with the world, then you want to save it. It's your mother. Again, it's not it's not just a commodity anymore. And Reading your chapter about being out on a kayak in the middle of the of Florida. And there's gators and birds and fish and the whole deal. I'm I'm there in my mind. And I'm imagining my own slice of wild here in the Pennsylvania mountains. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about how the natural world and how this process of rewilding has awoken your spirituality and how we might best share that with people.
Brian McLaren 36:40
Well, maybe I could just tell you two quick stories. One from yesterday, we had a death in the family over the last week. And so I was out of state. I was in New Jersey, for the funeral. And I had to do a whole bunch of interviews for this book. So I was in, in the home office of my deceased brother in law. To conduct these interviews, I brought along my microphone and had my computer set up. And right outside his window. There's a dogwood tree and in the dogwood tree, about two feet from the window was Robin building her nest and so I was doing interviews literally from you know, 10 in the morning till 11 At night, cuz some of them were Pacific Coast time. And so as I sat there through the day, I watched the mother Robin, come and go and come and go mouthful of mud a mouthful of grass and watching her use her the shape of her body to form the perfect cup. If you've ever observed a bird's nest, it's just this perfect semi sphere. Oh my goodness, it's just an I never gotten to watch that. That's such a intimate angle. And if that wasn't good enough, just before dark, she was out, I guess gathering more materials. And a little English Sparrow came in and climbs into her nest and steals a bunch of grass. And it was just great. And I just felt like I just got to see a little bit of mischief and fat, all the rest of it. But just all felt I just it just was it. There's a poet. What a great resume. There's a fellow named Lanham from Clemson University, who's a biologist and a poet. Isn't that a great combination? And he uses that term in one of his poems orgasm, that we have these experiences of oh, that produce this sort of delight you know, that's that goes beyond words. And, and I had said I felt watching that all unfold. And then another experience. Last summer I fall in love with a place I highly recommend it for people who like this sort of thing called ring Lake Ranch. It's a Christian based retreat center, but it's just a place that brings you out into the wilderness of Wyoming and you get to ride horses and fly fish and hike and and just enjoy an incredible a place with deep history for the sheep eat or people that Native American people that area and, and I took a hike with a botanist. And as we walked through a Badlands area along the Wind River Gorge. She would just everything she talked about was the relationship. We came along she said see that flower there says I've never seen that flower in bloom during the daytime. It's a night blooming flower. And she said there is one species of wasp that pollinates that flower and it only comes out at night. And she said isn't it amazing to think one species of Wasp and one flower have evolved to be sort of partners in their in one another survival, you know, and then we'd come upon a sagebrush, and she talked about before she was done, you just felt you were on holy ground, it was like a burning bush. But it was the sagebrush because she explained, this is high desert. And in the in the winter, snow drifts form around sage brushes, and that snow drifts, then when it melts, it concentrates moisture around the base of the sagebrush, which helps the sagebrush live but also becomes like a little oasis of moisture. And then she starts talking about all the creatures that depend on that moisture of the sagebrush. And I mean, you're done. And you're just, you're, it's ecstatic to think of the web of life that is around you. And, and that sense of connectedness, if that's not holy, I don't know what it is, you know. And so any kind of Christianity that wants to ignore all that and just look at the world as something that God plans to destroy, because he wants to suck our souls up into heaven or send them somewhere else. You just think what, what a blasphemy to, to discount and the wonder and glory that's there, you know, in that a Badlands of the Wind River Gorge.
Zack Jackson 41:27
You talk about that sort of mutual evolution. And the two things that when we first were developing the ideas of evolution, the common conception was survival of the fittest, the strongest, right the the beefiest and biggest teeth. And we've learned that the in many ways that was just white supremacy, Reading itself into science, when the truth is that it's survival of the most adaptable, the most resourceful, the best collaborators is, is survival of those who can work with others best is is how species evolve and continue that relationality is just,
Brian McLaren 42:10
and if we're going to survive, we have to learn that wisdom from from creation, I was honored to be invited to write a book about the Galapagos Islands. So I've had a chance to visit there a few times. And I in my book, I wrote a couple of chapters about Charles Darwin and I, I got to read his biography while I was there, and and then just did a bunch of research and that term survival of the fittest, you may know this. It wasn't Darwin's term. And Arthur, Arthur Wallace, I think it was Arthur was his first name, I, he, he recommended the term because natural selection sounded like it personified nature too much, you know that nature is making choices. Like a Calvinist, God makes choices, and they wanted to get away from that. When they use the word fittest, it meant fit best, the opposite of the most domineering and aggressive, it's those who fit best.
Zack Jackson 43:06
So yes, yes, you will love my favorite. That my favorite new fact in physics that is just that is filling my soul with all in wonder these days. Is that do you think about the part of the atom that makes that has stuff, right? That has mass that has the stuff that makes you a thing, and not just nothing? Where does your mask come from? Well, only 9% of the mass of an atom comes from the particles of the atom 91% of the mass of every atom comes from the interaction between the atoms, the forces created by the protons and neutrons, generate the the 91% of the mass of you and I and the planet and the stars. Everything is a relationship between things without the relationship, the things that exist don't exist. And I love that. I mean, that is just, that's the illogical.
Brian McLaren 44:05
Literally the weightiest part of the universe is its relationships.
Zack Jackson 44:10
Exactly. It is it is, if you ever wanted to find a fingerprint of a relational Creator, who created a creation that continues to create, it's right there.
Brian McLaren 44:20
And this is when you were talking about anticipatory Christianity. This is if if what will happen if we're given the chance to incorporate all of these magnificent understandings into our theological work, and not just be stuck under this very low ceiling of Neoplatonic philosophy? Which has its own beauties and all the rest, but you know, yeah, so all of this is one of the other reasons it's a little hard to walk away in spite of all the horrible things because somebody is going to get to do this kind of revisioning of what we mean when we say the word God, in light of all of this, and what we mean when we say the word human in light of all of this, and it's sort of would be a shame to miss miss that fun.
Zack Jackson 45:15
It is fun, isn't it?
Ian Binns 45:17
Well, and, you know, Reading throughout your, your book too about, you know, the interconnectedness of all things, and just the importance of, you know, stepping back from that just developing those connections and those relationships, you know, that's something that as a teacher, I do with my students, and, you know, I teach future elementary school teachers how to teach science. And so one of the first things I really focus on is not necessarily, let's get into teaching science immediately, it's, let's develop a connection to each other a relationship. And, you know, I've been told by some of my colleagues that they've always been impressed that typically by week two, I've developed a very strong rapport with my students. And I tell my students, this is my messaging to them all the time, is that if you're able to connect with your students, on a personal level in some way, you can teach them anything there is yes, yes, yes. Because they will learn to trust you and know they're in a safe space.
Brian McLaren 46:21
Yes. And in the presence of that kind of respect and affection, you know, and in the presence of that, our curiosity comes out. And so then we become natural learners because we feel safe and all the rest. Oh, it's so true. And this, again, is one of the things that I think we have to realize that the Christian religion, by working so much on a base of fear and shame, creates an antagonistic environment to learning and curiosity. And it might be one of the factors in the lack of transformation we were talking about before, it makes people sort of hunker down, rather than open up.
Ian Binns 47:07
Well, that's, you know, part of that, too, with developing that relationship and connection is in it kind of touches on something. Zack, you said earlier when talking about Dr. Scott, coming on, as you know, teaching people to love nature, again, is that I approached my class, also teaching them to not fear science. Yes. And to realize why it's such an incredible thing to teach. And that children are natural born scientists. Yes. Just they'll whole notion of being curious and wanting to ask a question is doing science. And so I remind them of that. And then I say, Now let's have some fun, and focus on ways to teach it. But if they can get that down, yeah, pretty quickly, we're gonna have a good time. So
Brian McLaren 47:54
be a nice thing for seminarians to hear.
Zack Jackson 48:00
I mentioned before we started recording, friend of mine just wrote his first book, called Jesus takes the side embracing the political demands of the gospel, his name is Johnny Rashid. By the time this episode airs, I think it'll be a week out from release. And in it, one of the things he argues is that Western Christianity doesn't have a sense of honor, but it does have a sense of shame. And most societies are honor shame based, and his family comes from Egypt, and they have a deeply ingrained system of honor and shame and honor and shame is how you keep society together, how to keep religion together, but Western Christianity has a lot of shame. But we have no systems of honor. anymore. And so we cling desperately, to our our dogma, our beliefs, our right thinking, because it is so easy to feel shame, and so hard to find honor in the system anymore. Sounds remarkable. It is. And it's it's a great book, and everyone should read it. But I think that when we're talking about reimagining the church and reimagining our faith and our religion and what it means to follow Christ. I mean, I can't think of another historical person who spent more time pouring honor on people that other people poured Seamus. Yes, yes, yes. And if we're going to reimagine this faith, I think we put that near the center. I love it. As as we're, as we're sort of wrapping up our time together. I want to I want to ask you one more question. That for me, is very full circle. Because back in 2006, I preached a sermon as a teenager, at my home church, based on your brand new book, The secret message of Jesus. A part of that book is in which you talked about how the phrase the kingdom of God doesn't work. In this post monarchical world. You know, nobody knows what a kingdom is anymore. Jesus was using a metaphor for his time that no longer works, and probably carries too many too much baggage for it to be useful. And you propose a dozen different solutions. The the, my favorite one at the time was the dream of God, that was the name of the sermon, actually just listen to the sermon today, it was very hard to listen to an 18 year old me preach a sermon. But here we are. I wonder if in the past 16 years, you've found a version of the kingdom of God that resonates deeper with you. And with the current reality, we find ourselves very
Brian McLaren 50:40
much. So that's very relevant to our discussion today. You know, there, there's a chapter in the book called to free God and, and I, I have a beautiful quote from Barbara brown Taylor that plays heavily in the book and and, in fact, maybe the way for me to say the phrase is to say that I think this phrase refers to the kingdom of God. And I think it refers to God. In that chapter I talk about in do I stay Christian, I talk about the you that we refer to God, that seems to me becomes a we, because the the nature of God, it seems to me is a God of participation, who invites us into participation in the divine life. And so anyhow, the phrase is the web of life. And, in fact, I, I wrote a little table grace, that is my table grace for the last several years. And it's I just say, for this breath, for this heartbeat, for this meal with these companions. For the web of life of which were part we give thanks with all our heart. And it's an as I'm saying, the web of life. I realized, I'm not just talking about you that web of life includes God. It's a we that's God and creation in that one web. So that now I think the web is what weighs 91%, or this 91% of the mass.
Zack Jackson 52:20
Yes, absolutely. It is all about how we are connected to one one,
Ian Binns 52:24
if I may ask one more question. Brian is based on something you said to us at the very beginning. After you talked about your experience with Charlottesville, you said you kind of alluded to that you are concerned about things to come. Yeah. Right. So that was hard to hear. Yeah. So what gives you hope? Yeah. Because January 6 was rough. It was rough. For those of us who admit what happened.
Brian McLaren 52:57
So in that's really an important question. And in fact, that's going to be at the heart of the next book I write actually. And I guess one thing I can say is the word hope used to mean for me, where do I see trend lines that make me think things might get better? And I'm not defining hope that way anymore. I'm not defining hope as having anything to do with evidence or not, not depending on evidence. And because what I expect this is what's helping me have hope, to not have to depend on evidence for things getting better. What I expect will happen is that forms of Christianity will get worse than they've ever been. I think that's almost unavoidable. I think, I can't imagine it not happening. i There are people who want it to happen, they want Christianity to become in words I would use uglier, more selfish, more vicious, more violent. And I have no hope that that will not happen, like that will happen. But here's the here's what I think, as that happens, I'm quite certain that we are seeing and we'll see extraordinarily beautiful expressions of Christian faith and other expressions of human life as well. Just because the ugliness that we'll see will will provoke many of us to step out of sort of complacency into a more vigorous and robust expression of beauty and pursuit of beauty. And, and the lies and conspiracy theories on one side will make us more passionate to actually know and face the truth and and, and, of that, of course, I do see evidence I see our conversation being evidence all The three of us are different than we were three years ago. And, and so, you know, it's just all around us. I would I was, you know, I said I was out of town. And when I was on a plane coming home this morning, as I walked down the aisle of the plane, I just had one of those kinds of grace moments, where as I walked down the aisle, I, this guy is asleep. And this woman is tending her child, and this older person is Reading a magazine. And as I'm walking down the aisle toward my seat at the back, cheap seat of the plane, I just felt this tenderness and love and saw the beauty of these people was one of those moments where you just sort of you feel every one of these people is beloved, you know, and, and I just think more and more of us are moving in that direction. But that won't stop the ugly people the ugly things from happening, and taking over more and more people's lives to so that's how I that's how I survived i i have to be able to expect the worst will happen and and the best will happen.
Ian Binns 56:07
So then we'll just also have to have you back on when you finish that next book. Okay. I would like that. I would appreciate that response. Brian. That helps a lot. salutely Thanks. Yeah.
Zack Jackson 56:18
The book is called do I stay Christian, a guide for the doubters, the disappointed and the disillusioned, it is available wherever you get your books as of yesterday. Brian has been such a pleasure to talk with you for the past hour. Thank you so much for carving time out of your ridiculously busy life to be
Brian McLaren 56:38
such a delight. It's just been a pleasure. I'm, I feel energized and I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. Thanks for having me on. And please keep up the good work. It's important. Thank you
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Episode 105
Maggots! Bloodletting! Graverobbers! Decapitated ducks! Cornflakes! This episode has it all! Join us on this wild ride through the history of Western Medicine as we look at the breakthroughs, setbacks, prejudices, and methodology behind it.
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
TranscriptThis transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
Zack Jackson 00:04
You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. This week our hosts are
Kendra Holt-Moore 00:14
Kendra Holt-Moore, assistant professor of religion at Bethany College, and my most recent ailment was a concussion from a snowboarding fall,
Zack Jackson 00:28
Zack Jackson, UCC pasture and Reading, Pennsylvania, and my most recent ailment was COVID.
Rachael Jackson 00:36
Rachel Jackson, Rabbi Agoudas, Israel congregation Hendersonville, North Carolina, my most recent ailment is real, pretty bland, but irritating nonetheless. It's just a headache. But it was one of those headaches that I couldn't get rid of a headache for no reason. And I felt like oh my god, I'm just old, I now just get headaches.
Ian Binns 01:01
And Ben's Associate Professor of elementary science education at UNC Charlotte. And my most recent ailment is arthritis in my right hand, where this part is where the thumb comes down and connects to the wrist. It is definitely confirmed no longer early onset arthritis. So yeah, that was fun.
01:26
Why did you why did you ask her this question?
Ian Binns 01:29
For two reasons. One, because we just passed your birthday, Rachel. So celebration.
Rachael Jackson 01:38
Your old everything hurts. Just adding the parenthetical aside, Everybody Hurts from REM is an amazing song from 1992. And it's younger than
Ian Binns 01:50
I am interested. No, yeah, no, that was out before? No. When were you born again, Kendra. 1991. See, so
01:58
nothing hurt, then. I was fresh.
Ian Binns 02:05
The second reason that we're asking this question is because we're starting our new mini series, our next mini series on healing. So for today, I'm gonna give a just a very quick crash course, in kind of the history of healing from a science perspective. And I will let our listeners know that my background and understanding this is definitely more than the western science. So please, if anyone hears this and says, hey, you've left out some cultures, historical cultures that I do apologize for that. But as I said, this is gonna be very brief. So we could do several episodes just on the history of medicine. But so anyway, so I kind of wanted to just give some general, interesting things that have occurred over time. And then we wanted us to be able to get into a conversation about, like medical treatments, for different ailments, as well. But some of our understanding of the history of medicine goes all the way back to prehistoric times. And this is where I think it will come into play throughout our series as well, of how different cultures used to attribute different types of magic or religion to ailments, you know, maybe it was something to do with evil spirits or something like that. But you know, supernatural origin versus more of a natural origin of reason for different ailments. But one of the things that we know from the discovery of different prehistoric skulls is that they would actually drill a hole into the skull of the victim, because they believe that that the speculation is and then we actually see this occurred in more recent human history that it would release the disease. And so that was one thanks, you mean patient? Did I sit victim, you get saved. Because you know, if
Zack Jackson 03:54
you're going to your show, and your hands
Ian Binns 03:56
are gonna drill during prehistoric times, and you're gonna knock a hole into the person's skull, they may end up being the victim. Right? So, so yeah, there you go. And then now we were going to jump ahead to ancient Egypt, when we start actually seeing some evidence of written evidence of different types of treatments and medicine. One examples from the what was called the Smith Papyrus, written in 1600 BCE, right around there. But it was actually we believe it was a copy of a text from much earlier, so roughly 3000 BCE, but in that particular Papyrus, that's now I think, in New York. It contained 48 case studies. There was no theory for anything, but it was an observation and kind of a recording of what it is that they knew. So the case studies were all written, same way, the title, the examination, so what they're observing, and then the diagnosis, and then the treatment, and then they will have a glossary for terms. But again, they were still be speculation about what role Old Evil forces or spirits play in the cause of diseases. And then we're gonna jump ahead more to ancient Greece. And this is where many people may have heard of Hippocrates, of Coase Brahm, circa BCE, or for 20 BC, he was one of the first people who kind of focused on natural explanations trying to move away from supernatural explanations. And he was one of the people who came up with the idea of the four humors, which those are blood, yellow bile, black bile, and phlegm. And if you are healthy, that means the four humors are in balance, if you were not healthy, that means something was off, one of the humors was off. And so this is where we start getting the idea of bloodletting. So for example, if someone had a fever, it was due to an abundance of blood. And so they would do bloodletting as a way to cure the fever. But still, at this time, and again, I'm skipping over a lot of people. They learned different things with anatomy, but they were only allowed to dissect animals, because at the time, it was illegal to dissect humans. At which time, still 420 BCE. So this is still the BCE era, ancient,
Zack Jackson 06:13
ancient really, that sounds more like a Christian hang up than agree. Yeah. Well, and actually to
Ian Binns 06:17
this, and trying to prepare for today's episode, I did see in some of the more ancient eastern cultures of like Hinduism, and from the early early stages of that, that they were also not allowed to cut into the human body and dissect human bodies either. So this is not just in that area. But yeah, you're right, because, Zack, as you just said, that we see that all the way up into the 1500s that they weren't supposed to be dissecting humans in in Europe, for example, but they did not necessarily figure out the reason or the causes of the different parts of the body that they were removing from the body. So when it came to anatomy, who the Egyptians from my from my understanding, or my off on that, which I find that's
Zack Jackson 07:01
fine, it depends. The the Ebers papyrus and again, all these papyrus papyrus papyrus Pappa Ria, I don't know if the plural is. The Papyrus is they are named after the the hippopotami Yes, sorry. They're all happy to discover they're all named there. No, not the Discover. They're named after the white guys who bought it at auction and then brought it back to their country. So, you know, all of Egyptian treasures are in Europe or America somewhere instead of where they belong. But anyway,
Ian Binns 07:35
yeah, the Smith Paul Bader is probably wasn't named for a guy named Smith all that back then.
Zack Jackson 07:40
Right now Pharaoh Smith. No, that's not really an Egyptian name. But the Ebers papyrus was in 1550 BCE, and it had a really detailed explanation of the heart and the entire circulatory system. It was a bit wrong in some of the ways in that they thought that the the heart pumps all fluids. So that includes urine and semen as well as as blood, but they understood the purpose of of the blood going through the muscles and the veins and the arteries and all of that they actually also had some psychiatric conditions that were tied up in conditions of the heart. And they mentioned like dementia and depression, which were problems of the heart because they would dissect people after they died and look at the quality of their ventricles and all of that. So they didn't know what the brain was. They thought that was garbage. But the heart was the center of
Ian Binns 08:37
all thank you for correcting me, Zack, I forgot about that Papyrus. Papyrus? popularized by Bob Yes, go ahead, Rachel.
Zack Jackson 08:46
Papyrus hippopotami
Rachael Jackson 08:47
I was just going to add that because things are because things are so ancient, we tend to forget that there was we say Egyptian. We're looking at 1000s and 1000s of years when we say Ancient Egypt, so 1500 BCE is kind of the middle right? Middle late kingdom, right? This is the these are the new kingdoms. Were this is not, these are not the ones that built those giant pyramids. That's 1000 years earlier that they did that. So I think when we when we talk about that we should do a little bit of justice and say, hey, it would sort of be like saying, hey, all Englanders life for all time, right? Well, that's just been 2000 years like it's at some point. So just to add to that piece and same thing with the the Greek piece or the ancient Greek has been around for a very long time. That's that's the history not the
Zack Jackson 09:45
speaking of the history piece to in about in the 1200s or so BCE, there was this mysterious Bronze Age collapse in which these massive societies, the ancient Egyptians, the Mycenaeans, all the the the Hittite They just they just collapsed. And we're not entirely sure why possibly the sea peoples possibly climate change, possibly a million other things, aliens, if you watch the History Channel, but all of these amazing societies, the Minoans, another one, they all just disappeared. And so you see later Greek society and later Egyptian society, then trying to make sense of the fact that there are these ancient ruins that are massive, and they just assume that ancient heroes built them, which is where a lot of the mythology comes from. But so like this sort of understanding of anatomy and health was probably somewhat lost in going into the period that now you're talking about where people aren't allowed to dissect. So we see them now because we found the papyrus, but they may not have had them
Ian Binns 10:46
as well. So Zach, you mentioned, you know, of that massive loss of civilization around that timeframe? And you mentioned your seafaring people to a man, are you talking about Atlantis there, buddy?
Zack Jackson 11:01
I am actually the Minoans. We're probably the source of the Atlantean myth as far as
Ian Binns 11:07
because wasn't Plato, one of the first ones to talk about it. Plato was the first one to write right about that we have documentation.
Zack Jackson 11:14
It's an Egyptian story that Plato heard and wrote about that there's this island nation that was super advanced in technology and in society, and then they angered Poseidon, right, and then they were wiped out by the sea for their iniquities. And so that lines up really nicely with the Minoan people who were on Crete, who at the time, I mean, we're talking 1500 BCE. Further back had like three storey buildings with hot and cold running water, and indoor plumbing. They had amazing art and architecture. They were they they were doing things that 1000s of years later, people hadn't discovered. And then they were just they were hit by this massive tsunami after the oh, what's that, that place in Greece that everyone goes on vacation with the beautiful blue waters of Santorini the volcano there exploded and caused caused dust it caused tsunamis and basically wiped out their society and in the Mycenaeans conquered them, and then the Bronze Age collapse. So we forgot all about them for 1000s of years, but they were probably the inspiration of Atlantis. It's not aliens, sorry. It's probably just Minoans. It's a bummer. Yeah, well, this has been Zach ruins mythology for you.
Kendra Holt-Moore 12:31
A new segment? I love that. Yeah, exactly.
Ian Binns 12:33
You could just splice this out and move it to the end. So let's get back to because I think while we're doing this to it's interesting, you all I am going to be focusing mostly on how we start to see more of a focus on natural phenomena, natural explanations and a scientific approach to medicine, that you still do see, you know, and like Apocrypha as being one of the individuals again from 420 BCE, trying to move away from Supernatural that even with the work of Hippocrates, that it did not drive out, like the rivals, you know, long that more traditional forms of healing up to that point, those those are traditional forms of healing belief and practice that those still existed. So it's not like when his work and and his contemporaries, you know, and then actually, there's speculation that Hippocrates was multiple people. It was not one. And so, just because of that, though, it did not drive out this the more traditional ways of belief and practices all say, so then I'm going to jump ahead roughly 500 years to Rome, and Galen. So Galen was a individuals from 129, to circa 200 CE. And he really started getting into this notion of we need to rely on the world of our senses. And but he still accepted the idea of the four humors that was originally proposed by Hippocrates. He recognized the arteries contain blood and not merely air, he also showed how the heart sets blood in motion, but he did not have an idea about the whole notion of circulation, blood circulation, but he was he did start figuring out that, you know, the heart did move things at least a little bit. We definitely see evidence with control experimentation with Galen key focus on on anatomy, but again, at the timeframe, dissection of humans was illegal. And so his work was focusing on animals, their section of animals, and it's his work. That actually kind of stayed when you think about Western culture and Western medicine, kind of was the prevailing view of how things were done until the 1500s. was actually the reason why I remember that so much is with that part, because his work was occurring rather right around the time of Ptolemy, when he talked about astronomy, and that stayed around for roughly the same Not a time till you know, Copernicus work. So it was kind of all those things started happening right around the same time. So now again, you know, my apologies for leaving out multiple cultures that I want to jump ahead again now to Medieval and Renaissance Europe. And so as I said galas, views kind of held strong until roughly the 1500s. And this is when we see Andreas alias, emerge. And yes, there were others before him, but he was one of the first ones to really get into dissection of humans. I think he had he was a person who had students who were grave robbers, because it was still illegal at the time. But he realized that we needed for anatomy, we needed a better understanding and body so he would have his students would become grave robbers and steal the bodies, and then they would do special dissections, you know, for like a show. I mean, there were many, many people watching, but they would have lookouts to make sure that they weren't doing anything, they wouldn't get caught.
Zack Jackson 15:58
Do you put them back? I don't know that after you're done? No.
16:02
I would hope so. Yeah,
Ian Binns 16:03
you think so?
Rachael Jackson 16:04
I would think so. Not just think so.
Ian Binns 16:08
Yeah. Then apparently he was a very skilled Dissector. And he felt like you know, it was they had to move away from Galen and his views. And don't forget, you know, I said, you know, we're jumping time. This was 1400 years later. So Galen, his views held strong for a long time. But he did a lot of dissection of humans. And his scientific observations and methods, with these facilities show that Galen can no longer be regarded as the final authority. And so that's when we start to see and again, this is also aligned with the time of the Renaissance. That's when we start seeing movement away from more ancient understandings when it comes to science, to medicine, for example, he believed in the importance of empirical knowledge, independent observation and experimentation. So this alias is really into those types of things. I don't know if he was ever caught. I have to look into that one. Yeah,
Zack Jackson 17:04
well, now he Oh, yeah. You blew his cover, man.
Ian Binns 17:07
Sorry, sorry, everybody. But what's interesting is even when that was occurring, we were also still seeing some people who were holding on to the idea that, you know, while experimentation is important that we still need to Paracelsus was one of them. I think I'm saying that correct. He presents the idea that humans are the ultimate ends of God's creation. So the ultimate form he held on is something called a chemical philosophy, which is a Christian philosophy. But it was not very widely accepted at the time, because as I've already said, this is the time of the Renaissance. So we're trying to move away from those types of explanations. And so he was still around, but he was trying to blend the two, between experimentation, but also to hold into the importance of God and humans kind of being the ultimate form. And then the next person I want to talk about before we start really going into different types of ailments stuff, just because of, as I said, the history as William Harvey, he was 15, seven 816 57. So he advanced medicine even further, because of careful observation, experimentation, he really focused on collecting more evidence. And this is when we really start to see what we now think of as experimentations. So, you know, control experimentation manipulate in nature, so he can see something that normally would not be seen, he came up with the theory of the circulation of blood of blood. So we started trying to have a better understanding how blood circulated throughout the body. And again, you know, he still was someone who did believe in the impact of a designer, but he really focused on the more natural explanations.
Zack Jackson 18:46
It's interesting that you say that he he discovered the circulation of the blood when we just said that 3000 years earlier, the Egyptians knew about the circuit. Oh, you're right.
Ian Binns 18:56
Yeah. Yeah, and plumbing, and plumbing,
19:02
plumbing, our own and in the world, but it
Ian Binns 19:05
is fascinating historical texts still hold us like William Harvey is one of the people who really did that.
Zack Jackson 19:11
Well, God forbid, they credited an African for exactly discovering yessing.
Ian Binns 19:17
And so just because of, you know, because I really want us to get into conversations around like different types of treatments we see throughout history for different ailments. You know, this was the time of the Renaissance. When you start moving past that. I mean, you as we've seen, we've discussed throughout on this show, in the past about the history of science and how scientific advancements just took off during this timeframe. Incredibly fast, right. And it was the same for medical medical advancements, too. And so we continue to see lots of different changes over time to the point where we are to our today, but what I really want to focus on unless someone wants to talk more about other history is getting into these treatments that we see throughout history. If we can
Zack Jackson 19:59
Yeah, That's absolutely yeah, you're chomping at the bit over there. You want to talk about about some some trees.
Ian Binns 20:05
So because one of my hat, like asthma, so asthma used to be treated, it was treated by smoking.
Zack Jackson 20:16
Oh, yes, smoking pipe of
Ian Binns 20:19
tobacco or cigar has the power of relieving a fit of asthma, especially in those not accustomed to it,
Zack Jackson 20:26
which I thought was really amazing custom to tobacco.
Ian Binns 20:29
That was this. That was the argument being presented is amazing. Yeah. There's an when when ish was this it was more like the 1800s.
20:39
Oh, recent.
Zack Jackson 20:40
Yeah. Well, counterpoint. No, that is not don't don't smoke, if you have so please
Ian Binns 20:47
understand that these are old, not accurate. There's a another thing with the whole idea of smoking. Yeah. For Your Health. This is. Back in the late 19th, early 20th century, I found a site talks about these different types of treatments out there smoking, for your health, asthma cigarettes. Yeah. So and they were this is an advertisement, not recommended for children under six. That was nice. But they were actually called asthma cigarettes. And they effectively treat asthma hay fever, foul breath, all diseases of throat, head colds, canker sores, bronchial irritations. So yeah, so that was a good thing.
Zack Jackson 21:30
Well, so when you're talking 19th, and 20th century, and these are like some crazy, wacky solutions for things like when they would give cocaine to children for their cough, and all of that. That's not entirely like saying that the ancient Romans used electric eels to cure hemorrhoids. Which, which is real? Well, when we're in the 19th and 20th centuries, a lot of these are the companies understood the awful things that their, their their products did to people, but they made marketing false advertisements to sell these addictive things to people. You know, the Bayer Corporation knew all about the addictive qualities of cocaine and still pushed it as a as a simple pain reliever, because they could get people addicted to it. And like those sorts of predatory capitalism has existed for the past couple of 100 years with with pharmaceuticals, and we are paying that price now with the opioid epidemic. So when the smoking industry in the 1800s, they didn't understand that it gave cancer, obviously, but they knew it wasn't good. Yeah, no, those advertisements are intentionally misleading, because there was no oversight.
Ian Binns 22:49
Well, and earlier, I referred to bloodletting. And, you know, was talking about, you know, ancient, ancient Greece, you know, and for 400 BCE, bloodletting did not just end then, bloodletting was something that was continued for a very long time, for centuries. And
Rachael Jackson 23:06
right, and I believe, and I have not fact check this. So someone else has please correct me or collaborate, whichever it might be. I said, No, we're doing stuff about presidents. And a little factoid that I heard was that George Washington got a fever, just like you're saying in and at that time. It's George Washington, early, early 19th century, and he got a fever. And so they decided to do bloodletting. And they did bloodletting twice on him. So much, so that he died. Oh, good. I have not, I have not double checked that fact. But I also haven't seen anything to contradict it. So yeah, take that with a grain of salt as it may. But that was, it was all the way up until George Washington is when they were really still using this as a technique to cure people from things like fevers, which are very, very dangerous, but unless you have something to just take down the fever, you're either gonna live it or you're like, or you're not.
Zack Jackson 24:12
Yeah, the Constitution Center. Constitution. center.org says that that process of bloodletting probably let about 40% of his blood supply, right. So you can't really make it through a sickness with 40% of your blood supply.
Rachael Jackson 24:28
Right. So imagine I mean, think about when you donate blood do the three of you donate blood any on a regular or at all ever works. I
Ian Binns 24:37
grew up in Europe. Right? Yeah, Mad Cow Disease just because people don't know.
Rachael Jackson 24:43
Yeah. Yeah. Zack, do you ever
Zack Jackson 24:48
know I don't I don't I mostly have issues with needles. Yeah, exactly. What me not to
Rachael Jackson 24:53
Yeah, don't do that. better for everybody that you don't go to the hospital for donating blood.
Kendra Holt-Moore 24:58
Drive was can So I think because of a COVID related thing, but I would like to, but I haven't.
Rachael Jackson 25:06
Yeah, yeah, it's one of those like really simple, really useful things that if a person is healthy and no guilt, no judgment. For anyone that does or doesn't, you can do it every 56 days, and they take about a leader. And generally speaking, people, adults have five to six leaders. And they say, Okay, you're gonna feel queasy, don't do any weightlifting, don't do anything strenuous for a minimum of 24 hours. Like, you've got to just take it real easy, and you have to be healthy when you donate, because your body needs every blood cell that it has when it's healthy, or when it's sick. And when it's healthy. Yeah, we've got an extra 20%. So let's give it away. But if you take more than that, you're not going to survive very well. And then if you take more than that, and you're sick, your body has no ability to fight off the diseases, right? We talk about blood cells all the time, and the white blood cell counts and red blood cells. And how do we think we were just talking about the circulation system? Right, the circulatory? How do you think all of those good anti me when your immune system actually gets to these infections through your bloodstream? And if you don't have a good flowing bloodstream? Right, if this is August, after a rough summer, it's not happening.
Zack Jackson 26:29
So I know that in modern medicine, they still do use leeches, there are medical legions, and they're usually used to drain excess blood or like, you know, pooling of blood and hematoma hematomas. Is that the thing? Because it's, it's sanitary. And it's easier. And if people are willing to have a leech on him for a while, then it's great. But like, historically, bloodletting has been around for very
Ian Binns 26:56
long, 1000s and 1000s. Like,
Zack Jackson 27:00
it must have worked at least a little bit, or else they wouldn't have kept doing it. Right.
Rachael Jackson 27:06
But don't you think correlation and causation comes into play here. But people get people get better, regardless of what we tried to do them. And so just because someone got better doesn't mean that what we did to them made them better? Well, so
Zack Jackson 27:23
like, there's an old remedy, in which if you got bit by a snake, you would take a duck and put its butt on the wound, and then cut its head off. And then while the bite is on the wound, and the thought was that it would suck out the poison,
Ian Binns 27:37
the dung Would Suck out the poison.
Zack Jackson 27:40
Yes, yes. Yes. Everyone knows this wanted
Ian Binns 27:42
to make that claim. I'm quite excited about that.
Zack Jackson 27:47
Like that. That didn't stick. Yeah. But like draining people have their a painful procedure that is gross, and makes me feel queasy thinking about that stuck around for 1000s of years where like, is there any kind of medical benefit? Like even in obviously not in Washington's case, like if you have an infection, don't get rid of your blood? But like, what that stimulates SIBO antibodies to then like go to the wound, or like adrenaline to help boost the system? What? Are any of you familiar with any positives of blood lead? I
Kendra Holt-Moore 28:28
not? I'm not answering this question to like, describe physiological processes, but the placebo effect is extremely powerful. Like in just the study of medicine, like contemporary researchers, there are some who have done a lot of really interesting work on placebo effects. And obviously, like, we don't have the same kind of data to, like, you know, like double, double blind study results of placebo effects for like, ancient practices, ancient cultures, but I think, you know, cross culturally, all human societies, we all do things that, you know, as Rachel said, we can't really like tie a causation thread between those practices and healing in a definitive way, but a lot of what we do, we do for like cultural or, you know, comfort reasons. And even that is like different than placebo, which, in a lot of cases, like the placebo effect does actually change. Like it does lead to physiological changes. And it's kind of like weird and mysterious, but I think that I think that's not something to take for granted or under appreciate. Because, you know, I think even like early psychological studies showing, you know, if you're in a situation shift where you're around like comforting, familiar people and a comforting, familiar environment, you just fare better. Like even if we're not talking about injury, you fare better in terms of your, like mental health, mental well being, which translates to sometimes like physical well being. And that, you know, those are, those are things that are, I think, often considered, like, non essential pieces of the healing process. But, but yet, we we all, you know, like there are studies to show that people care about a doctor's bedside manner. People care about having, you know, chaplains come into hospital settings to, to support people and that that, that does facilitate something real in terms of healing. But it's it's just not, there's not like a clear, like, hard scientific way of describing that necessarily, but I that it's not to say that it's like not important also.
Rachael Jackson 31:04
Yeah, I would, I would add that, you know, you were just talking to Kendra about hospitals. But also previous to that you were saying, in places where people are surrounded and around things that they're comfortable with, the best healing happens when you're not in a hospital. Right. Hospital is no place for a sick person. I mean, and I mean, that my dad, my dad, was now a doctor said that, to me, it's like, that makes perfect sense. Because to really, unless you're really sick, and you can't be at home, being at home is your best chance of getting better. And I'm using that word intentionally, right, getting closer to a cure and your sense of normal, faster than being in a hospital, and that hospitals are there for the very, very sick people who cannot be at home for whatever reason. So it's one of those other reasons like stay away from a hospital. Also, they just have a lot of germs still stay away from a hospital. Unless, again, you have no other alternative. And so, you know, to answer Zach's question there too, I think the idea of Zack, you were kind of recoiling from the achiness of leeches. And I wonder, are the bloodletting perspective? I wonder if part of the causation and the correlation might be, you're now treating a person differently. You're giving them advantages. Maybe you're giving them more soup, maybe you're giving them more fluids? Maybe you're treating them differently, because Oh, it's so serious that we have to call a doctor in or whoever, whatever their title was, whoever was giving the leeches, the priests perhaps, right, that now they're so different that their everydayness is being being treated differently. You give them the extra blanket, you give them the soup, you take them outside, like whatever it is, that that's really what's happening. And so yes, the leeches are helping but only as a secondary issue.
Zack Jackson 33:08
That reminds me of the correlation causation argument around the increased health of religious people. We've heard that those numbers thrown around a lot that people who regularly are connected to religious communities are healthier live longer than people that don't. Right. Yeah. And the argument from the religious perspective is that well, faithful people have God, and God heals you. And prayer works. And so prayer prayer for people are healthy people. When the opposite argument is then yeah, the opposite argument is that, well, you're connected to a religious community, you've got people that care for you, you've got people that come by There's comfort, there's there's connection, there's soup delivered to your door every day. And those intangibles are what caused the the health and the healing. Yeah,
Kendra Holt-Moore 33:58
and the direction of the correlation is not always clear, if you're looking at like study results. So if you're healthy and able bodied, to like get to your church, or synagogue or whatever, then you can, you can do that. But you were already healthy from the starting point. Whereas if you're like chronically ill and unable to get out of bed, then maybe you don't go to a religious service, because you're not able to but the starting point, the kind of direction of behavior was influenced by the status of your health rather than, like the status of your religiosity. And that that whole like body of literature is like, really, really vast. And it is really interesting, but it's a good, good examples to bring up when we're talking about correlation.
Ian Binns 34:48
Yeah. But Zack, you asked earlier about, you know, why did bloodletting last for so long? I mean, there is, you know, I just started remembering that there are certain Um, chronic diseases, blood diseases that people will have, or blood cancers that will have where it will produce too much either iron and their blood or too much red blood cells. And the way they do that, the way that one of the treatments for that is a phlebotomy and so, which is the removal of amount, a specific amount of blood, it's more than just going in and doing a donation, for example. And so I and that is done for medical purposes, like my dad used to have to do that, because of a blood disease that he had. And so, I saw I started very quickly looking at what is the difference between bloodletting and phlebotomy? And some of this is just saying that bloodletting was a therapeutic practice that started in antiquity, but that there still flub a lot. Phlebotomy is another way of saying bloodletting
35:57
is, when you go rolled, it's phlebotomist. Correct? It's the person that takes
Ian Binns 36:01
control now than it used to be. Right. Yeah.
36:03
Or at least, we think it's
Ian Binns 36:07
yes.
Zack Jackson 36:08
Yeah. So one of the things I wanted, so I want to be cautious about to when we talk about old, older treatments, you know, the cutting off the duck's head and how ridiculous it is, or the how they used to use urine to whiten their teeth. You know, stuff, stuff like that, where we can easily look back at those folksy unintelligent people and say, My goodness, aren't we so intelligent? Today, we have science and science has given us all the answers. And those of you who might be listening at home or have people in your lives, who you've talked to about sorts of things, well, then, you know, get kind of, rightly upset at the sort of hubris of that, that there's there's medicine, and then there's alternative medicine, and alternative medicine is based just on placebo and fantasies and dreams. And real medicine is based on science and truth. And I think Modern medicine is wonderful. And it has given us so much more trust in the process and understanding the why of things work. But that a lot of what we have in modern medicine is based on traditional medicine. You know, the ancient Ancient Egyptians knew that if you had pain, or inflammation or fever that you could chew on birch bark, and it would reduce those things. And it wasn't until much later that that's how we got aspirin now, or I think of penicillin just comes from what mold. And how many of like indigenous cultures will watch the way that nature interacts with itself. And then we'll gain lessons from that, you know, watching what this animal eats when they eat it. And then using that and applying that and finding that those things work. And only much, much, much, much later do we discover the scientific rationale for it. And we're seeing sort of a resurgence in the past couple of decades of people taking indigenous medicines seriously and looking for like the whys of why these things have stuck around for so long. And lots of times discovering that there is there is wisdom behind these traditions. And the whole colonial Western mindset of it's our way, or it's just fantasy is not all that helpful.
Rachael Jackson 38:36
Thank you for that perspective, I think we do need to, you know, recognize our own bias. And also recognize, you know, as we're sort of talking about the with the tobacco industry, that there's a lot of push with marketing, and there's a lot of issues in those ways that we're all very susceptible to that came out of this trusting of the scientific process. And just because it's old, doesn't mean it is old and unscientific doesn't mean that it's not also helpful. Right. So putting that caveat also,
Zack Jackson 39:10
sometimes they are awful. Do the old things, you know, like we if you have syphilis at home, do not inject mercury into your urethra, because that does not work. Right, despite the fact that Blackbeard did it. And
39:27
well, and I think too, are there other are there other? Oh, sorry. Yeah. Well,
Ian Binns 39:31
just real quick, you know, you talk about this, and I think this will be, you know, what you're just discussing, Zach, you know, and wanting to be respectful. And one of the people I hope to get on the show sometime is David distinto, who wrote the book, how God works. And in this particular book, I mean, he is talking in some situations about healing, you know, and says early on, I'm not finished yet but you know, it's says I realized that the surprise of my colleagues and I felt when we saw evidence of religions benefits was a sign of our hubris. Born of a common notion among scientists, all of religion was superstition, and therefore could have little practical benefit is that learned and as this book shows, spiritual leaders often understood in ways that we can now scientifically confirm how to help people live better lives. And so that he is someone I really, you know, reach out to him see if we can get him on the show, because I think that's some interesting research he's done to show. You know, what is it we're learning now? And how it's applicable to helping others but another one I wanted to bring up was the notion of maggot therapy.
40:44
Oh, yes, yeah. Which I've done a little bit
Ian Binns 40:47
here, but if you know more, please, but
Zack Jackson 40:51
which I now say it Rachel hates bugs.
40:57
I do leeches all day long. But maggots.
Zack Jackson 40:59
I got this don't talk about
Ian Binns 41:01
this great book called strange science, wonderful. All these cool things in here, but one of them is pages on maggot therapy. And it says it sounds like something from a horror film fat cream colored maggots eating their way through infected sores and wounds. It's not its medicine. Rachel, says Rachel right there. Since it's so sad since ancient times, doctors have used Magus to prevent wounds from getting infected, and the 1940s Antibiotics replace maggots. But bacteria adapted and started to become resistant to antibiotics. And now we get the return of the maggots. Maggots work by secreting digestive enzymes that feed on dead tissue. Those enzymes also killed bacteria and a wound and speed up healing. Doctors are placed between 203 100 maggots on a wound then cover it maggots and all with mesh beneath the mesh the maggots feed for 48 to 72 hours. When they're done, the doctors remove them. wounds that haven't healed for months even years often respond quickly to maggot medicine. And I really am hopeful this is a video clip we need to share of the wonderful reactions we're seeing from both Rachel and Kendra
Rachael Jackson 42:25
I'm just gonna be real public about this. If I'm ever in a situation where I'd not have a wound that heals and the only thing that could cure me is Maga therapy. Just put me out of my misery. Just don't
Zack Jackson 42:38
just go to
Rachael Jackson 42:42
the blog, the blog and I'm like, kill the maggots like don't even just all amputate or that's I respect people that go through that so much. I'm not one of them. I think that never having that issue.
Kendra Holt-Moore 42:54
You can put the maggots on me but then also punch me in the face and knock me out.
43:02
Alright, so I'll be dead and Kendra will be unconscious. Yeah. And South could be loving every minute.
Zack Jackson 43:09
As well of bugs. Sorry. Yeah.
43:11
All right, Ian, where are you? Where do you fall on this this highly nutritious
Zack Jackson 43:14
to after they're done? Yeah, he's just you can just kill them and dry them and then eat them and then you get all your personal flesh. Then you get the nutrients back. Well should you
43:28
cook in your body,
Zack Jackson 43:34
because they know either way you deal with with insects. You take the insects you suffocate them in a box of carbon dioxide so you don't squish them or anything. Then you take them out and you dehydrate them and then you crush them into a powder and add that into your food. That's the best
Ian Binns 43:50
way to by any chance interview all seasons we're talking about maggots.
Zack Jackson 43:55
Can we continue for the rest of the episode? Rachel?
Ian Binns 44:00
Yes, that's another video clip needs to be shared of Rachel doing the gagging reflex each time I talk about maggots. She's like well
Kendra Holt-Moore 44:09
I feel bad for Rachel.
44:11
Like I don't I'm not queasy, but now I guess I
Ian Binns 44:15
will. So let's let's get into another discussion. Then. Kellogg's cornflakes. Now I'd found a very
Kendra Holt-Moore 44:21
good transition away from dear listener.
Zack Jackson 44:27
Now that's a segue
Ian Binns 44:28
dear listener. So when I mentioned Kellogg's cornflakes prior to recording, both Rachael and Kendra have perked up and seemed to know more information about this than I did. And so I will only share the very little bit of information I have but please reach and Kindle Kendra jump in and tell us what you know about the Kellogg's cornflakes but from what I have read is that Jay is Kellogg one of the people who developed Kellogg's cornflakes he was a medical doctor and health activist and he created the cornflakes. He was one of the people who created any hope that they would prevent sexual urges or more specifically to inhibit the urge to masturbate. And so Rachel, Kendra, you reacted earlier what what did you know? Because this took me by complete surprise because it didn't work. So
Kendra Holt-Moore 45:14
I was gonna say, Rachel, you go because I have to go it's like noon. I don't really have that much to add, either. I just I know that that is a statement.
Ian Binns 45:26
Do we not want to then talk about the very last one about hysteria before Kendra leaves?
Rachael Jackson 45:29
We can keep talking about it. I think she's she's got it. Yeah, I
Kendra Holt-Moore 45:32
mean, I'm gonna say Good. Might have to, like 30 seconds thing
Ian Binns 45:35
for anyone to tell us about hysteria. Kendra. Wow.
Zack Jackson 45:36
Don't eat cornflakes. Just stick with Cheerios. Cheerios make you horny. So you know that's
Ian Binns 45:44
the science apparently
Kendra Holt-Moore 45:45
bowl of cereal if you feel nothing.
Zack Jackson 45:50
Just cereal? If you want to feel nothing at all.
Kendra Holt-Moore 45:55
Land bland, bland cereal for a bland, bland sex life. That's Sorry. All right, see you later.
46:06
Cool. J cereal.
Zack Jackson 46:09
So what kind of what kind of like sexy breakfast? Was he trying to?
Ian Binns 46:13
I don't know. Rachel, can you help us out?
Rachael Jackson 46:16
So I think I'm in the same same boat of it was a factoid that I very much knew and held on to. But beyond that, I don't have a whole lot of information. I mean, the idea is, you know, everyone has breakfast. And so to prevent those urges in the morning, which and also just let's just clarify something here. When they say masturbation, they really mean men. Yeah, I'm sorry. Nobody, nobody. Yeah. Right. And so basically throughout time, and this was a religious issue. And so it wasn't a doctor issue. It was a religious issue of male masturbation is against God, going all the way back to some genesis of Don't spill your seed and, and Leviticus and stuff like that. But it's bad idea to spill your seed and that got translated into don't masturbate. And so as a religious idea, and if you look at men, generally speaking, I think we were talking about this maybe a couple of weeks ago to in the morning, men generally have more of how to say this, erect penises based on what was going on in the evenings, and the dreams and their inability to regulate their own erections. And so if that's the first thing you do in the morning to stop that have cold, dry cereal. Well, something that's bland,
Zack Jackson 47:56
and I will, let's also say, Kellogg, as a human, Mr. Kellogg himself was a bit of an anti sex fanatic, that the man was married, and still never had sex, and wrote books about how he and his wife never had sex. And they lived in separate bedrooms, and they adopted their children. And that sex pollutes the body. And it's the worst thing in the world. And so, like, this guy was afraid of his body, right? And again, not want anyone else's body. Yeah, he
Rachael Jackson 48:28
did this in a religious context. He didn't do it just because he was asexual and thought everyone else shouldn't be too. Yeah, I'm not a sexual anti-sex. So
Ian Binns 48:37
I will say this. And so I did look it up. And so and, you know, this is now I'm getting this from Snopes. And you know, there could be good or bad things getting things. So but according to snopes.com, so the claim, what is the you know, the Kellogg's cornflakes were originally created an effort to discourage American consumers from masturbating. And as you said, Rachel, it's male, actually, so it should say that the rating is mostly false. And so what this they're saying what is true is that the creation of cornflakes was part of JH Kellogg's broader advocacy for a plain bland diet without referring to cornflakes in particular, Kellogg elsewhere recommended a plain bland diet as one of several methods to discourage masturbation. So can I guess that was a people just put that together?
Zack Jackson 49:34
Can I just read a little quote from one of his books, please do other way. So he talks about onanism, which Rachel alluded to is a story of Odin from where we're in Scripture, are we? That is that is where he's supposed to consummate this.
49:55
So this is the story of this is in Genesis in Judah Genesis. Yeah. This is
Zack Jackson 50:01
and where he's supposed to impregnate his brother's widow, and then spills the seed on the ground because
Rachael Jackson 50:08
he doesn't want to because he wants the child to be his own and not be his brother's his dead brother's wife's son, and therefore all the dead brother's property goes to him and he doesn't then have a son. So instead of doing that, they just like,
Zack Jackson 50:26
so then God knocks him out. Right, so, so he talks about onanism. So when he talks about onanism, he's talking about masturbation. He says neither plague nor war nor smallpox have produced results so disastrous to humanity as the pernicious habit of onanism. Such a victim dies literally by his own hand. Yeah, such a victim dies literally by his own answer. You must have been so happy with that line. Can you imagine him writing that out? And he's like, Oh, this is a killer. This is good. This is good. This is good. He dies by his own hand. Oh, I gotta show this to someone.
Rachael Jackson 51:04
Yeah. Also, let's just add to who this person was. He spent 30 years of his life dedicated to promoting eugenics.
Ian Binns 51:15
Yes, he did. So near the end of his life,
Rachael Jackson 51:18
whether or not there was the direct cornflakes is for masturbation, it was promoted by a person who was anti sexual and pro eugenic to donate. You know, that's the history
Zack Jackson 51:33
of cornflakes. Yeah. Meanwhile, recent research has found that for most people, sex is actually super healthy. For a person's like continued health and well, being mentally, physically, emotionally, releases all kinds of amazing hormones and good things into your body. And like a lot of religions throughout history have have have recognized that have seen, like Judaism, spiritual ecstasy, like orgasm is like spiritual ecstasy. That's like the moment of connection to the divine. This breaking forth between the natural and the the supernatural. And this thin place and spirituality have, like, celebrated that. And I think we're coming back around to that. That's a good thing. Right? Oh, Christianity is still lagging far, far, far behind. Thank you some combination of Plato and Augustine, but we're getting there. You know,
Rachael Jackson 52:37
maybe it's kind of like Plumbing. Right? They had an ancient Egypt, and then it took like, one or 2000 years to come back. Yeah.
Zack Jackson 52:48
Yeah. Yeah. So
Rachael Jackson 52:49
you know, your plumbing. Yeah. Not quite, not quite that way. But no, my Jewish comment, my Jewish comment was that Judaism sees, and by Judaism, big broad stroke brush using right here, normative ancient orthodoxy style, Judaism saw sex only within a marital heterosexual concept. But inside those boundaries, yay, more of it. Also, it's a double mitzvah, it's a doubly good thing to do on Shabbat, the day that we're supposed to be the highest connected to God. And this was one of the ways to be even more connected to the Divine was through sex with your spouse. And I was thinking, as you're talking about Kellogg to how they didn't have sex, even though they were married. One of the things in an ancient Catawba marriage document, given it to the wife was written that if the husband doesn't fulfill his side of the contract, because, well, he doesn't or he's dead, then she gets XY and Z things, you know, 50 chickens, a sheep or whatever. Depends on what she's worth old widows and or excuse me, old, divorcees are worth nothing. But beyond that. One of the stipulations in there is how often they have to have sex, how often the husband must provide sex to his wife, not the other way around. And it listed how frequent so a day trader was like, once a week at a minimum, right, but a merchant, every three to say they had a donkey driver that was once a month and then a camel driver was once every three months because they recognize that if your camel driver, you're you're gone for a very long time, so don't punish them. And then they had like, and then because these are scholars writing this and I don't know what their problem was, they just want to have sex with each other instead of their wives. They said, Oh, like every seven years. Is all your seven years. Yeah, like it was ridiculous, how often or how not often they had To have sex so that they could go to the go to their rabbi's house and study with him for years on end, and then just come back once every few years have sex with the wife and then go again. So yeah, so having, like having sex in the religious concept again, and that very narrow first understanding of sis heterosexual marriages, has kind of made sex positive in Judea. Yeah. Yeah.
Ian Binns 55:30
So I know because you know, we are approaching the hour. But I do want to at least because, you know, we talked about before recording. And it's a chance for me to get all my giggles out around this idea of hysteria. Your giggles out most of my giggles. But this was something that I do remember hearing about, you know, at one point about female hysteria. And there's different articles that I have found that talk about, you know, because even there were films about it, or there was a film about it, and play. And so the idea was that, and thankfully, I'm gonna keep fumbling this. But Rachel introduced us to a really cool person, I want to do a shout out for sigh babe on Facebook. does some really interesting stuff. I'm really excited about Reading more about her. But what's interesting is that the argument is, is that hold on, let me pull my thing up, and just be easier. It was believed or this is the argument that in the Victorian era, doctors treated women diagnosed with hysteria, which is no longer a diagnosis, by the way, by genital stimulation to induce an orgasm. This hysteria was supposed to be a buildup of fluid in the woman's womb. And doctors assumed that since men and Jackie lated, and felt better that it stood to reason this would work for when women. Apparently, you know, there was multiple, you know, ideas of what was it that the different symptoms that people would have, obviously, if they were experiencing hysteria, and so this was the way to go was this manual massage. But a text came out in 1999. From and I believe that toss are doing more research for this this episode. A historian wrote this book that came out in 1989. And in that she argued that this was the reason why the vibrator was invented, was to make it so that it was easier for the doctors having to treat women for hysteria. I'm just saying that Oh, nice. But you know. So, yeah, and found out that that actually is not accurate. A more recent paper from last couple years has come out showing that this is actually inaccurate, that there is no evidence whatsoever suggests that women are treated for hysteria, by doctors bringing them to orgasm in their offices. So, or that this was the reason why vibrators were invented. But again, a medical treatment. That was something that took off based on one historians perspective, and or book, and then others kind of pushed back on it was fascinating. And we can share these in show notes or something. But in Reading about this particular ailment, and this suppose a treatment Amad. Yes. And suppose the treatment, there was interesting to read about how this particular historian of technology kind of has backpedal a little bit. And so well, no, I didn't mean I meant it more as a hypothesis, not a yes, this is the way it was. But then, you know, when you actually look at the writing shows, that's not actually how it was presented in the text itself. But it still took off, right? Because it was, I mean, when you think about it, this sounds kind of funny. And so it took off, people listen to it and
Rachael Jackson 59:13
right, because also, you know, God forbid, somebody creates something for women's pleasure, simply for women's pleasure,
Ian Binns 59:21
right? And that's actually there's no reason at the very beginning. It's a disturbing insight, implying that vibrators succeeded not because they advance you know, pleasure, but because they saved labor for male physicians.
Rachael Jackson 59:35
Right? So again, yeah, simply for women that has nothing to do with the man right gets co opted into a story of oh, those poor men, just poor, poor doctors, or in a really awful way of the abuse, the potential abuse of Doc Just taking advantage of their women patience, and showing that it's okay. None of this is ever okay.
Ian Binns 1:00:11
But even there, I mean, you can easily go online and find
1:00:17
trying to find their, you know, articles
Ian Binns 1:00:18
to support that this will that it was used for this as as recent 2019. Right. Yeah.
Rachael Jackson 1:00:28
So no, no your sources correct. And use some good thinking. And if you're going to Google things, feel free to use private browsing. Yes.
Zack Jackson 1:00:39
And if your interest the scientific method, you know, and you're feeling a little hysterical, just want to try it out. See if it works for you. That's in your hypothesis. Thank you. Science is just messing around and taking notes right so.
1:01:04
Wash your hands first.
Ian Binns 1:01:05
And after. Okay, that's all I got.
Zack Jackson 1:01:13
Thank you, doctor. Doctor, doctor.
-
Episode 104
Today we welcome the Rev Dr David Wilkinson all the way from Durham, England. Dr Wilkinson is an ordained Methodist minister with PhDs in Systematic Theology and Theoretical Astrophysics. In addition to working for St John's College, he is the project director of “Equipping Christian Leadership in an Age of Science” which seeks to do exactly what the name implies. We talk about their surprising research into Christian leaders' attitudes towards science, how to think about biblical miracles, how to have constructive dialogue, and what happens when you put bishops in a room full of humanoid robots. This is an engaging, heartfelt, and inspiring conversation, and we're excited to bring it to you.
ECLAS - https://www.eclasproject.org/
Reid, Lydia and Wilkinson, David. (2021.) ‘Building Enthusiasm and Overcoming Fear: Engaging with Christian Leaders in an Age of Science’, Zygon 56 (4). https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/14679744/2021/56/4
Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast
More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/
produced by Zack Jacksonmusic by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis
Check out Zack and Nichole's new podcast "Reimagining Faith with the Pastors Jackson" here...
https://www.patreon.com/reimaginingfaith
https://reimaginingfaith.podbean.com/
TranscriptThis transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors.
Zack Jackson 00:00
Hey there, Zack here. Before we get to today's episode, which is so good, by the way, I wanted to let you know that my wife, Nicole, and I just launched a new podcast called reimagining faith with the pastor's Jackson. I haven't really shared a whole lot about this on the podcast yet. But we both just quit our church jobs, and are in the process of planting a new faith community called Open Table United Church of Christ. At this new faith community were committed to being theologically progressive, locally minded with Jesus at the center. We're starting from scratch. And we are rethinking every part about what it means to be a community of faith in this particular moment in history. We are really excited about the ways that the Spirit is moving among our little team. And we wanted a way to share that with you all as well. Hence, the reimagining faith podcast, we'll be posting new episodes every week, delving into our particular convictions, telling stories, interviewing difference makers and giving you an inside peek into the messy and ridiculous process of planting a church that is not quite a church, but it's also kind of a church, but not really, you know, it'll probably make a lot more sense after you hear a few episodes of it. So why don't you just go ahead and subscribe. Just search for reimagining faith with the pastor's Jackson wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you want to help us expand to this work, you can support us at patreon.com/reimagining faith. And now, on to the podcast. You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. Our guest today is the current principal of St. John's College Durham and a professor in the Department of theology and religion. He has PhDs in both theoretical astrophysics and systematic theology, having served as both a Methodist minister and an academic professor. He's also the project director of equipping Christian leadership in an age of science, which is a project whose goals are near and dear to my heart. And I'm sure many of yours as well. It is my privilege to introduce the Reverend David Wilkinson. Welcome to the podcast. Thank
David Wilkinson 02:19
you, Zack, it's so lovely to be here. Lovely to talk to you.
Zack Jackson 02:24
Yes, I'm so glad that we were able to coordinate across the ocean, get our time zones correct and, and that you're able to be with us today I am fascinated by just the breadth of the work that you have done and that you are doing with the organizations that you're associated with. And so, again, it's an honor to have you here with us. So I mentioned in that that introduction, equipping Christian leadership in an age of science, or EC L A s do you do pronounce the acronym when when you're in a company,
David Wilkinson 03:01
about team pronounces it in class, and part of our team pronounces it at class. And we haven't come to agreement on what the correct pronunciation is. So I'm happy with the project.
Zack Jackson 03:15
Did any of you consider switching the acronym the words around so it would spell something like Eclair or something that well,
David Wilkinson 03:22
as you can see, remember and see from me, I'm very open to a close and as many as possible, probably too many for me. But, I mean, you know, sometimes theology and science is dominated by some of these acronyms. I think what we've been concerned about has been that sense of equipping Christian leadership. And about almost 10 years ago, my friend and colleague Tom McLeish, who's a theoretical physicist and a lay theologian, and I were speculating about what happened when senior Christian leaders, such as bishops, or leaders of other denominations, or leaders of parachurch organizations, those organizations that span different churches, were asked about science. And one of the things that we noticed was that senior church leaders often responded with fear, or negativity, or silence. And the problem with that is that then those who serve as Christian leaders under them, if they come from a scientific background, if your senior leader responds with fear or negativity or silence, then that doesn't really affirm what you're bringing to ministry, in terms of your interest or passion about science. And then that ripples down into congregations, where disciples who live out their lives with a vocation to be scientists, technologists are in Engineers, they're not affirmed in their vocation. And of course, that then ripples out to reinforce this very dominant model of relationship between science and religion, that conflict model of science and religion or independence, that the two have to be separated. And so we thought, Is there a project to be done where we can equip Christian leaders to engage with science with joy, with humility, with confidence with excitement? And that would have a ripple down effect throughout the church?
Zack Jackson 05:36
Yes, I mentioned I resonate with this. This is the this is the project that I'm working on for my doctrine ministry program right now, creating resources for pastors to engage, to equip them to have these conversations because it is just so important. So in what ways have since you started this program? How have you been able to start equipping leaders,
David Wilkinson 06:00
one of the things we first realized sack was the importance of personal relationships and conversations. And so we started with, with conferences, where we would invite a small group of senior leaders, intentionally inviting them to come here to Durham. And we would take them into science departments, where we introduce them to world class scientists. Now, sometimes, in this work, organizations will choose a scientist who happens to be a Christian. We didn't do that. We just went for world class scientists, whatever their religious backgrounds, and we threw the bishops into their labs. And we got these people to talk about their own science and their work. And it was just terrific from cosmology and simulating universes through to biology, genetics, we even had one wonderful incident where we took 30 bishops into one of our engineering labs here in Durham, where we have small robots, six of them, artificial intelligent robots, humanoid robots, and the bishops were kind of pressed against the wall. Worried about this, these little robots who are wandering round, and the robots went up to the bishops, and started to talk to them. And suddenly the bishops move towards the center of the room, as they started conversing with these robots. And I wish I'd had a video camera to show you. And in a sense, we start with with bishops who are a little worried about science. And slowly they move into the center. And part of that is talking to research students, and talking with professors, and actually seeing that these folk work in science, because they're passionate about finding out about the universe, or they're passionate about helping society and other people, that some of the the big, bad images of science are not quite true when you meet scientists themselves. And we brought into that conversation, then theologians into the conference, to help decode some of the issues of play within the interplay of science and theology. And so this bringing together of people to talk together, and what we found, was after the sessions, the bishops were thrilled to have encountered science. And the scientists were thrilled to encounter bishops, and other senior church leaders who took science seriously. And many of the scientists without any Christian commitment turned up at the bar later on in the conference, to talk more with the bishops. I think there's something really important about that kind of interaction of people, that learning not just about the science in the abstract, but science in terms of it being done by scientists. And then we thought to ourselves, Well, there's one or two other things that we really need to do about this. So we've had a research strand, where we've interviewed 1000, clergy and a number of bishops and senior church leaders about what they really think about science. That's been an important thing. And we might want to go on to some of those findings in a little bit. We've also followed the US in a program called Science for seminaries and working with church leaders are beginning of their ministries. And then we wanted to provide some model situations where people could see how a local congregation could use the scientists within their congregations to do something fruitful for the kingdom, either for the church or for the community. And we call that scientists in congregations. And that's a program that's been used in lots of different parts of the world. And then the final strand that we've done, which is peculiar to the UK, in the UK, the Church of England is the established church. It has a lot of political and media presence. There are bishops in the House of Lords, for example, scrutinizing legislation. And so we embedded a team member within the church of England's work in that area, to assist on some of the questions such as fracking, or AI, that are going through legislation to help Christian leaders give sensible voices within the public debate. So those are some of the things that we've been really excited by Zach.
Zack Jackson 11:07
Oh, wow. Yeah, that that sounds very exciting. I would, I would venture to say that most congregations have at least one professional scientist within it, whether they, they're open about that or not. But I'm curious about the ways that your program has, has used scientists within congregations, how are you using those those gifts of people?
David Wilkinson 11:32
I think, I think that's a really crucial question. And so let me give you some for instances of some of the projects that we've supported. So we've supported a project called Take your vicar into the lab, where a number of scientists in the congregation have said to their church leader, why don't you come into our workplace, and we'll tell you about what we do day by day. And again, we're talking about people with vocation, and a very different context to what happens in the church on a Sunday. One group of scientists have worked with a professional theatre group drama group, to write a play on artificial intelligence. And this play will, will tour the country, the 45 minute one act play, then there'll be a coffee break. And then into the venue will come a number of local scientists who work in the area of AI for a question answered on AI and religion and Christianity. Another group we've worked with, has produced some resources for something that we call messy science. Now, in the UK, there's a very strong program called Messy Church, which is a way of doing church, for families with young children. And that involves some crafts, and making things. And what we realized was that actually, there are a number of children who are much happier to blow things up in science experiments, to make craft activities. And so we've we've created a book called Messy science, which is scientific experiments that you can do and as part of Messy Church, or indeed, that you can do for an all the family or all age worship on a Sunday, which involves some of the fun of science. Why, for instance, you can take a beaker full of water, and just put a piece of paper at the bottom of it, turn it over, and the water doesn't fall out most of the time. And so these kinds of things is about using the gifts and the passion and the interests of scientists. And I think you're right, like I think virtually every congregation has scientists or teachers of science or technology or engineering within it. But what we're not good at doing is affirming those gifts. So some of the churches I go to, if a young person says the Lord has called me to seminary or Bible college, the congregation will say hallelujah, they will bring that young person to the front. They will so we're going to pray and lay hands on you. And here's a big envelope with money in it to support your expenses. But if a young person in that same congregation says, I'm going to go and study chemistry, I wonder whether that congregation also brings the young person to the front, lay hands on them and gives them a big envelope to help them with their expenses. And I think that's about out, saying science as a gift from God. And to be a scientist is as much a vocation as it is to be a pastor, or to be a missionary.
Zack Jackson 15:11
Wow. That is a that is profound. It's I don't think that any churches out there would affirm a child's choosing to become a scientist the way they would be so proud of our little, our little boy who's grown up to be a pastor, and we'd love to help you out in any way we can. But a scientist is essentially seeking out God in just empirical ways through the creation as opposed to
David Wilkinson 15:40
theology, Kepler, the great astronomer, once said that science is thinking God's thoughts after him. And what a wonderful way of looking at the universe and that guy became a Christian at the age of 17, just before going up to university to study physics. And early in my Christian life, I kind of realized that if if I say that Jesus is the Lord, then he is Lord of all, not just what I do on a Sunday, but what I do in terms of my interest in mathematics and astrophysics. And so what does it mean to be disciple within that area, as well as what I do in terms of lifestyle with money and relationships, and all the rest of it. And I think that's an area that the church hasn't been good at, in an area that we can work out and help Christian leaders to see science as gift. And the responsibility that that brings.
Zack Jackson 16:42
Yes, I wish that more churches had that kind of had that kind of understanding, you know, that that kind of heart and belief. But according to the research that you all have done. That was there was a paper that was published in zeigen, Journal of religion and science, recently, looking at the disconnect between religious leaders interest in science and their willingness to talk about it publicly. There were some very interesting findings in there, would you care to tell us a little bit about
David Wilkinson 17:17
Yes, absolutely. And some things that surprised us. We wanted to serve a clergy first of all, and we surveyed about 1000 of them from all different churches and backgrounds. And one of the most surprising things was how often they find themselves talking about science, or engaging with people about science in their ministry. Now, we didn't expect that to be the case. Although looking back on my own ministry, I was a pastor for a decade, in full time, work leading a church. I remember, it was in Liverpool, just off Penny Lane for those who remember the Beatles. And we used to run a luncheon club, where, on a Wednesday lunchtime, we would gather together some elderly folk and provide them with a fairly basic but nutritious and wholesome lunch. And I remember going to a lady who was very elderly, and left school at the age of 14. And I would normally wander around and say hello to people. And I sat down at her table. And she looked at me and said, Now then David, she said, What's this Stephen Hawking and quantum gravity all about? And what does this mean for God? Now, I think sometimes we underestimate the kinds of questions that people have. And so we found that clergy were often addressing questions about the environment, questions about genetics, questions about what does it mean to be human? These big questions, and yet, often, they felt a little bit of a lack of confidence in engaging with these questions. And I think that partly comes from this conflict model, which is so embedded within Western tradition, which you found in the New Atheists. So for Richard Dawkins and others, you now find in many stand up comedians, who also represent the conflict model. But I think sometimes it's also about those subtle messages from the church that has said, Beware of science. And they've often coupled science with images of the Tower of Babel with trying to replace God or atheism. So I think we found that I think we also found and this is, this is something which really fascinated me. And that is the Sometimes the how why distinction becomes a avoidance mechanism for deeper theological questions. What I mean by that, is that when we talk about science and theology, and I often do this myself, we can talk about science about the how, and theology about the why, when it comes to the origin of the universe, for example, my area of, of work and science and, you know, quantum gravity, and is the how of God doing it. Questions of purpose and meaning or value is why, and that's a useful first order distinction. But we found that many senior church leaders were using it as a way to avoid some of the deeper questions. So if you use the how wide distinction, you can perhaps avoid the question, well, how does God really work in the universe? How does God work in healing in miracles in prayer? How is God involved in the laws of physics or not? Now, those can be quite scary questions to folk. But they're important questions for many people. And then I think we I think the third thing that we found was sometimes this fear of certain ways that science has been used, protect, particularly when it comes to theories of evolution. So although there was an openness to assessing scientific theories, there was a sense of those who have used the post Darwinian controversies to argue against Christianity, and to use some scientific theories and evolution and sociobiology. Sometimes I used to argue that once you have a scientific understanding of something, it's nothing but that. So religion could be seen and the way that it's developed, and its socio biological, biological origin. But then that quick move to say, and that's all it is. That's the mistake. So those are some of the things that came out of the research.
Zack Jackson 22:23
So I hear the the one idea that science provides the nuts and bolts the understanding of how things work, and religion then gives it the meaning, right, I've heard the illustration that you can learn all you can about the molecular makeup of a chocolate cake, and you can know all about its compounds, but no part of the science can tell you that it's a birthday cake, I'm sorry, that that that then has to come from the meaning. And then I also hear you mentioning, sort of at the end there about the God of the gaps that God develops as a way of explaining the things that we don't understand and has a way of helping us to sleep at night. Giving us a sense of control over the crops, as it were or the movement of the stars and the future and helping us to be less afraid. And as science then explains all of those things, then God gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And that model is just created in such a way that it eliminates itself. It does. And both of those two ways of understanding God are so prevalent, and they both are so limiting. What how do you how do you navigate this world? How do you hold both your faith and your understanding of science in intention in tandem?
David Wilkinson 23:47
Yeah. And the sack you've put your finger on it? I think and it's a question that goes back to an old book written by Jeb Phillips, many years ago, which was a book with the title your God is too small. You see, the problem with with God of the Gaps is, as you rightly said, God is too small. And the God that I see in Jesus is not a God who hides in small gaps of scientific ignorance. This is the Lord of all, who is the one who sustains every physical process within the universe. So for me, God is the Creator and Sustainer of the laws of physics. That's the first thing to say. I think secondly, God is big enough that he can sometimes do unusual things, beyond his normal ways of working. And therefore, both as a scientist and a theologian, I'm open to miracle. I'm open to God doing unusual things because I think God is big enough to to go beyond his normal ways of working and special prayer. Within SOS special events, I think the third thing that really helps me to navigate some of this sack is going back to Jesus time and time again. I remember, as a young research student, I've been on a conference in the middle of the summer in the University of Brighton, and Sussex and England. And we were the only people in the university, a group of 40, astrophysics PhD students. And there was only one pub. And so every evening we'd all end up in the same pub. And I remember sitting down with a with a colleague, very, very bright astrophysicist, who within half an hour, had proved to me that God didn't exist. I mean, he just argued against with all the classic arguments against the existence of God. And I remember wandering back to, to the small bedroom I had, and and thinking, Well, you know, I've only been a Christian two or three years. This guy's convinced me that the intellectual argumentation means that God doesn't exist, what am I going to do? And it was that point that by, by my bed on the bedside table was a Bible. I just opened the Bible, and I read again, the Gospels, and I become a Christian, because I'd seen in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, God Himself walk in the pages of history. And there are many questions that I don't have the answers to, there are many intellectual conundrums about the problem of evil, or about how does God actually work in the world, which I don't have easy, simplistic philosophical answers to. But what I see in Jesus is a God who becomes a human being and lives amongst us, in the space time history, a God who participates in the consequences of suffering and evil, he bears them as well as I do. A God who gives me hope, in terms of bodily resurrection, going beyond our normal accepted patterns of what's possible in the world. And a God who actually has a historical record in Palestine, that you and I can sit down and discuss, we might not come to similar conclusions about it. But the data is there for us to discuss it. And so my understanding of science and theology is never simply what we might call the old, big arguments for the existence of God, the design argument, or the First Cause Argument, if I'm authentically Christian, then I have to bring into the conversation. God who reveals Himself in Jesus. And that's been an important part of, of my journey in trying to navigate some of these difficult questions.
Zack Jackson 28:14
As a pastor for the past eight and a half years, I not only get questions, nearly weekly, from, especially from the conference, and these teenagers who are thinking through these things in school, but also the adults I, I feel questions from my colleagues almost constantly, who likewise have people asking these questions, and they do not feel equipped to answer them. And so they, they give them you know, shrug shoulders, and I'm sorry, this is just what I believe I'll try to find resources for you. And one of the things that comes up quite often is miracles, when it seemingly when God breaks the rules, yeah. Because even if somebody who values God and values science, they will often just find naturalistic explanations for things. I mean, famously, Thomas Jefferson cut out all of the references of, of miracles in his Bible, and it was much smaller at that point. You know, for example, that if we believe that Jesus in the wedding in Cana and the book of John turned water into wine, using natural processes, I mean, just the fusion of atoms would have created so much energy, it would have leveled all of the Middle East, you know, in a nuclear explosion, and clearly that did not happen. So, either there was a sort of social miracle in which Jesus inspired people to run out to the liquor store, or there is something else happening something super natural. You've done a little bit of work into into miracles and what happens in prayer and things like that. Do you have any insights that you could offer to As clergy out there,
David Wilkinson 30:01
well, I have some insights, whether they're useful or not is another question.
Zack Jackson 30:07
Oh, the story of my life, I'll put that on my tombstone.
David Wilkinson 30:11
I think the first thing to say is that I want to take the gospel writers seriously. And I think sometimes Western scholarship has been rather patronizing to the writers of the Gospel by saying that they simply have rewritten the stories of social miracles, in terms of supernatural miracles, you know, and so, even more extreme would be those who've written that Jesus walking on the waters was actually because he was on a sand bank at the time. Well, I mean, you know, fishermen would know where the sand banks would be, and things of that sort, I think, the Gospel writers are being authentic in terms of what they believed, and I want to take that seriously. And then secondly, there is a granularity about some of the gospel reports, which suggests to me that they aren't simply made up to express theological truth about Jesus. So for instance, you mentioned the wedding at Cana, one of the one of the extraordinary things about that miracle is that Jesus turned between 120 gallons, 280 gallons of water into wine. Now, that that's, that's not the kind of usual detail that you would expect, in terms of if you'd simply wanted a miracle of water into wine, there's something really quite extraordinary about that unexpected about it. And I think there are a number of the miracle stories which just have that ring of truth about them. Now, that's the biblical scholarship at one level, which I think is important for us to do. I think then, as a scientist, I want to come with a number of convictions. The first is that 20th century physics tells us that the universe is far more subtle, and subtle than we ever imagined it to be. We live with the legacy of Isaac Newton's clockwork universe, where the universe is picture herbal, and predictable. And so the transformation of God has rules which he can't break, is based on that clockwork universe. But in the 20th century, as you well know, quantum theory, and then chaotic or complex systems, like the weather, we discovered that actually, the universe is not as picture trouble or as predictable as that clockwork universe was. Now, I don't want to push that too far to say, well, this is where God works in quantum systems. But I do want to take seriously as John Polkinghorne used to say, these things remind us of the danger of the tyranny of model of common sense. Our everyday experience and common sense isn't a good guide to the way the universe actually is, or indeed how God might work in the universe. And then I think coming back to that sense of the God who created the laws, has agency to work in through and beyond the laws is a very important theological question. And that maintaining of some limited agency, for God to work means that, that I'm open to God work in unusual ways. Now, all of that is not to say that I don't think there's an interesting question, as a scientist about where the energy comes from. I want to ask that question. And as a scientist, I want to say, when people claim evidence for healing, or evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, what is that evidence? And let's have an honest and serious conversation about it. I think that's important. But I don't think that all of those things need to be talked about in the round. I don't think that one of these things rules out the possibility of miracles. And so I know that's a very long answer to a very succinct question. But I think sometimes we get ourselves fascinated with wanting to give one line answers to actually very difficult questions. And one of the real problems of miracle for me, is actually not besides The real problem of miracle for me is, if God can work by miracle, why can't he do it more often? And in more serious ways, you know, so the Christian who says, I drove to the supermarket, and it was raining, and there was no parking spaces. But I prayed to the Lord, and suddenly a parking space was there for me. Now, apparently, I want to say to that Christian sister or brother, well, wonderful. But, Lord, why provide a parking space when actually, you know for that particular sister or brother, they could have done with a little extra walk, compared to what's happening with COVID? Or what's happening in Ukraine? And that's the problem of evil. And sec, I don't have any real answer to that. That's one of the big questions that I have. For when I see the Lord face to face. But I'm not prepared to reject the biblical evidence or the scientific openness. Because I can't fully understand the problem of evil, but I want to take it seriously.
Zack Jackson 36:16
That is a fantastic point. I think our anyone out there who's a religious leader has probably heard that second argument far more, you know, you hear stories of healing, and then I prayed for my mother to be healed and she wasn't healed. And then, then you have, you know, is the problem, my fate? Did I not pray properly? Did does, am I not favored by God?
David Wilkinson 36:41
And that's profound, profound, isn't it and that, and what that means, and that's where, for me, the what I sometimes call the messiness of the Bible, is really important. Because, you know, we have instances within the Bible itself, when Paul, for example, prays three times, about this thorn in the flesh that he has, and he's not healed. When, when we have this unusual incident of when Jesus is called by Mary and Martha, that his friend Lazarus is sick. And Jesus didn't immediately go and heal Lazarus. There's indications in Mark's gospel of times when the whole town or village were brought for healing. And Mark says, many of them were healed, not all of them. Now, that for me actually embeds this problem, not just in our experience, but there is a mystery going on within scripture itself. And, and the thing with Scripture is, it doesn't always give us the answer. I mean, I would love it. If Paul had provided not yet another letter, but a chapter entitled frequently asked questions. been brilliant. The apostle Paul had had a chapter on frequently answered questions, asked questions. And, and one of them would be the problem of evil. But of course, Scripture works often in narratives, in telling of testimony of story. And it's not the place where we get easy answers and philosophical theology. But it's important that our philosophical theology takes those stories seriously.
Zack Jackson 38:42
I can't imagine Paul trying to succinctly answer any question. Yes, let's say this is the man who spoke for so long that a boy fell asleep and fell out a window. Which, by the way, you know, he was able to raise this child back from the dead, but couldn't cure his own problem. preacher once told me that Lazarus still died. Yes. And that that sticks with me anytime I think about miracles. So aside from that, aside from the miracles, what do you think it's important that religious leaders should understand and, and in terms of science, and how can they possibly keep up with all of the new research not being scientists themselves?
David Wilkinson 39:34
I think both of those questions are really important. So let me take the second one. First, I'll come back to the first one. I don't think this is about equipping Christian leaders in terms of knowledge of science. I think this is about changing attitudes. So that as new science comes about, new discoveries are made new questions arise. Most religious leaders can encounter it, not with fear. But with a sense of, first of all, that this doesn't undermine faith. And second, that they already have resources within their own congregations that can help them. And we've talked already about the role and the vocation of those who are lay Christians and scientists. This is a terrific resource that God has given to every church leader from, you know, teenagers who are fascinated with the questions of science through to those who are at cutting edge research level. And so part of I think the change in attitudes, is that the church leader begins to see that ministry in this area is not just about them. But it's about the body of Christ together, relating to some of these questions. But in order to access that the initial response to science has to be changed away from fear into a humble listening to what's going on. Now, I think, to come back to the to the first question, I think, then there are some big questions for the next decade. And I think one of the biggest questions, which you and I have talked about before, is the question of what it means to be human. You know, I think we've gone through some of the interest and some of the big questions about origins, Big Bang, evolution, those types of questions, Christians still have different views on them. And we'll still keep continuing talking about them. But the central question of what it means to be human, I think is going to be highlighted in lots of different ways. For example, will artificial intelligence become conscious at some stage? If we discover extraterrestrial intelligence? What does that mean for human beings? The mind brain relationship, as we know more about what the relationship between mind and brain is all about? What does that mean, to be human? And, you know, even the Human Genome Project, that if I share 67% of my genes with cauliflower, which you can probably tell by looking at me, then, where's the distinction and being human? Now, I think, in lots of different ways in medical science through to what the James Webb Telescope is going to produce. That question of what it means to be human, is a central question for culture, for society, and for theology. Now, I think the great thing about the Christian faith for me, is that actually the question what it means to be human is a central theological question. It's been explored by generations of theologians down the ages. And one of the fascinating things for me is that it's not defined in the Christian tradition, by what I'm made of. It's defined by who I'm related to. So for me, the question of what it means to be human is a gift from God, a gift of intimate relationship, a gift of responsibility, a gift of creativity. So that to be human is not undermined by better understandings of what I'm physically made of, or that there may be other forms of consciousness out there. But that actually, what defines me as unique as a human being, is that God loves me. And God wants to be in relationship with me. And that may not be exclusive. In her there may be other intelligent beings elsewhere in the universe, who knows. But I don't think that's a threat to that central understanding of what it means to be human, or the kind of the shorthand that we use as theologians been made in the image of God.
Zack Jackson 44:34
That's beautiful. I, I'm so fascinated by the relationality of the cosmos, that we identify ourselves as a human by our relationship to each other, but we see it down to the fundamental level that 91% of the mass of the nucleus of an atom comes not from the proton and the neutron but from the forces that are generated by their interaction, and everything down to the fundamental Fields up until the galaxy clusters only exist in relation to one another. And if I mean, obviously, I'm, I'm imposing some of the meaning that from being a relational primate primates into the, into the cosmos, but you almost can't help but see the, the, the brushstrokes of a relational creator, in the fact that everything only exists in relation to each other. I
David Wilkinson 45:34
think that's right. Second, I mean, let me let me confess to you and to the listeners, that when I was trained first, as a, as a physicist, I thought that physics was the only true science, that chemistry, chemistry was for people who couldn't do physics, biology was for people who couldn't do chemistry. And I won't tell you what I thought of sociology. Now, now, of course, I have repented of such things.
Zack Jackson 46:03
For example, other mathematicians out there, for exactly
David Wilkinson 46:07
the reason that you've said that when atoms get together in relationship to four molecules, then a new series and levels of reality occurs, which is called chemistry. When those molecules get together and form living beings, a new level of biology emerges. And when human beings get together, a new level, which can only be studied by sociology emerges. And that's that emergent relationality, which you've talked about. And that reminds me as a physicist, that the universe cannot be simply reduced to its constituent parts, you have got to understand its constituent parts, but you can only understand them fully, when you understand the relationality between them, which is exactly the point that you beautifully made.
Zack Jackson 47:05
Well, thank you, thank you for the relational work that you're doing. And for that, being at the heart of your mission, understanding that it's not enough to just simply give information to clergy and to scientists, but to build relationships of understanding and mutuality. And that's, that is certainly how we interact. So for all the work that you're doing, through the foundation, through your your writings, and through, you know, the work you do at the college, thank you for for your life's work you're doing, you're doing really important work. And as we kind of ended our time together. Is there anything else that you would like our listeners to know, to take away from this conversation? I've
David Wilkinson 47:50
I've enjoyed the conversation immensely. Of course, I think it's important to say one of the fascinating things for me, as always, anything that one is able to achieve as an individual is only as strong as the team that you work with. And one of the great things about the work that we've been doing here in the UK is a combination of collaborations and partnerships between different universities and the Church of England. And the quality of the colleagues that that I work with, who involve scientists, theologians, sociologists, historians. And that's a very important part of understanding science. Science doesn't exist in a pure scientific vacuum. It comes with history that comes with philosophy. Indeed, it's framed for me by theology. And so as we work together, across different disciplines, so our understanding of these things becomes much, much richer. And the problem of divorcing the church from science is partly the way that our culture has divorced arts and humanities, from science. And I think particularly in the UK, that's been the case. And so part of this is a bigger cultural issue, which is valuing all types of human knowledge and how we interact together and learn more as community together. But thank you, Zack, I've really enjoyed this. It's a delight. What a wonderful podcast you doing. And thanks for for the time this afternoon.
Zack Jackson 49:35
Absolutely, and if any of our listeners out there are interested in learning more, they can go to E c l a s project.org. There's will be a link in the description if you'd like to learn more about what the equipping Christian leadership in an age of science is doing. There's plenty of videos from your previous conference, there's articles, there are links of places to get involved and to learn more and to help help equip you to do this very important work out in the world. You can also listen to any one of the 100 or so episodes of the podcast previously. We've where we've talked about a lot of these issues more in depth. So, again, thank you, David, for being here. And I wish all the best in all of your future endeavors.
David Wilkinson 50:20
Thank you very much.
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