Episodes
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On this episode, we delve into the world of intelligence with Julian Fisher, a renowned intelligence specialist and author. We explore the covert yet powerful skills of influence and persuasion honed by intelligence officers to elicit cooperation from even the most hardened individuals. Discover how these techniques can be ethically adapted to achieve your personal and professional goals. Julian, the founder of Africa Integrity, a leading private intelligence company, and the face of the Channel 4 TV series 'Spies' in 2017, brings a unique perspective to this fascinating conversation.
Find out more about “Think Like A Spy” here: https://julesfisher.com/book/
Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/JFcgWnwEiqc?si=HnPbNXW0Fs-dgO5c
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this episode, Sam Liechtenstein from RANE (Risk Assistance Network + Exchange) joins us to dissect their annual geopolitical forecast. We discussed a range of pressing issues, including:
The deteriorating global climate cooperationThe evolving conflict in UkraineThe shifting political landscape in EuropeThe Israeli-Palestinian conflictUS-China tensionsPolitical uncertainties in AsiaNorth Korea's military threatsTaiwan's strategic positionIndia's rising influencePakistan's instabilityJihadism in Sub-Saharan AfricaSouth Africa's political dynamicsThe implications of a potential Trump presidency
To find out more about RANE and its annual global forecast, please visit their website here: https://www.ranenetwork.com/
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Become a “Friend of the Podcast” on Patreon for £3/$4: www.patreon.com/SecretsAndSpies
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
Episodes manquant?
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In this conversation, Chris and author Henry Hemming delve into the intricate world of espionage during the Troubles in Northern Ireland, focusing on the roles of spies, informants, and key figures like Frank Hegarty and Freddy Scappatici. They discuss the political landscape that led to Operation Banner, the evolution of the IRA, and the cultural stigma surrounding informers. The conversation also highlights the challenges faced by intelligence operations and the moral complexities involved in espionage.
Get a copy of “Four Shots In The Night” here: https://www.quercusbooks.co.uk/titles/henry-hemming/four-shots-in-the-night/9781529426786/
Find out more about Henry Hemming and his work here: https://henryhemming.com/
Check out our past interview with Henry about his book “Our Man In New York”: https://pod.fo/e/ca367
Watch on Youtube: https://youtu.be/OWmWkMq3hqM
Support Secrets and Spies
Become a “Friend of the Podcast” on Patreon for £3/$4: www.patreon.com/SecretsAndSpies
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
Hi everyone, we wish you Happy Holidays and a Happy New Year.
We also wanted to say a huge thank you to each of you for your support over 2024. We have more episodes to share over the Holidays, so please stay tuned.
In the meantime, we hope you have a wonderful holiday period, and we will catch you in 2025 for more.
Support Secrets and Spies
Become a “Friend of the Podcast” on Patreon for £3/$4: www.patreon.com/SecretsAndSpies
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this episode, we’re joined by Florian Flade, an investigative journalist for Germany’s public broadcaster WDR based in Berlin. In this conversation, Florian discusses the activities of Russian research ships that are suspected of espionage. He explains how these ships, while officially labeled as academic vessels, are equipped with advanced technology for intelligence gathering, mainly focusing on critical underwater infrastructure. The conversation delves into the geopolitical implications of these activities, the Russian government's official stance, and the role of Chinese ships in potential sabotage operations.
Additionally, the discussion highlights the legal challenges in addressing maritime espionage and the difficulties in investigating incidents at sea. Florian also discusses NATO's evolving strategies in response to Russian spy ships, particularly in the context of the Baltic Sea. He highlights the increasing urgency and coordination among NATO members, the challenges of hybrid warfare, and the implications for defence spending in Germany.
The discussion also touches on public perceptions of security threats and the historical context of espionage activities, culminating in a personal account of encountering spy ships.
Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/ojllHsImbNk
For more information on these suspected Russian Spy Ships, please check out the links below:DW Documentary: “Putin’s Fleet”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br3K93-z6PI
DW News: “What are dozens of Russian ships doing in European waters?”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7f7Nujs1_yY
HI Sutton
http://www.hisutton.com/
Online TrackersMarine Traffic
https://www.marinetraffic.com/
Global Fishing Watch
https://globalfishingwatch.org/map/index
For more information and to connect with Florian please follow the links below:Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/florianflade.bsky.social
Twitter: https://x.com/FlorianFlade
Blog: https://ojihad.wordpress.com/
Support Secrets and Spies
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
After a despotic reign of over five decades, marked by 13 years of bloody civil war that killed over half a million people and displaced millions more, the al-Assad dynasty’s rule over Syria has come to a sudden, shocking end. In just under two weeks, rebel groups mounted an offensive that captured a string of major cities, culminating in the fall of Damascus with barely a shot being fired and Bashar al-Assad fleeing into exile in Moscow. It’s difficult to understate what a complete sea change these events are for Syria and the Middle East. Today, Phillip Smyth returns to help us make sense of how this all unfolded so quickly, so unexpectedly, and what it means for Iran and its proxies like Lebanese Hezbollah, who propped up the Assad regime and counted on Syria as a hub to exert their influence throughout the region.
Read Phillip’s work for West Point’s Combatting Terrorism Center: https://ctc.westpoint.edu/authors/phillip-smyth/
Read Phillip’s past work for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/experts/phillip-smyth
Follow Phillip on Twitter/X: https://x.com/PhillipSmyth
Relevant articles and reporting"The Backstory Behind the Fall of Aleppo" by Hassan Hassan and Michael Weiss | New Lines Magazine
"Jihadi ‘Counterterrorism:’ Hayat Tahrir al-Sham Versus the Islamic State" by Aaron Y. Zelin | CTC Sentinel
Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) Backgrounder | Center for Strategic & International Studies
"Syrian rebels reveal year-long plot that brought down Assad regime" by William Christou | The Guardian
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this episode, Matt’s joined by Jack Murphy—former Green Beret, investigative journalist, and host of The Team House podcast. Jack shares insights from his latest book, We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History, which uncovers lesser-known missions that shaped the US special operations community, from Cold War Berlin to nuclear contingencies reminiscent of Dr. Strangelove. Jack delves into the untold stories of units like Special Forces Detachment A and Blue Light, exploring the ingenuity, adaptability, and sacrifices of the men behind these covert operations, reflecting on the evolving role of special operations in today’s world.
Get We Defy: The Lost Chapters of Special Forces History on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/We-Defy-Chapters-Special-History-ebook/dp/B0DCGC1N1N/ref=sr_1_1
Listen to Jack on The Team House: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-team-house/id1492797340
Read’s reporting for The High Side on Substack: https://thehighside.substack.com
Follow Jack on Bluesky & X
https://bsky.app/profile/jackmurphyrgr.bsky.social
https://x.com/JackMurphyRGR
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
Retired World Bank Director Nigel Roberts tackles the intractable Israel-Palestine conflict. He dissects the shortcomings of the two-state solution and champions a novel approach: a federation acknowledging both identities. Roberts delves into the historical roots and the radicalisation fuelling the conflict. He argues for a new framework built on a constitutional process, acknowledging the trauma on both sides.
The discussion explores the challenges of public acceptance amidst deep mistrust. Roberts examines the influence of social media and urges international engagement to foster dialogue. Ultimately, he offers a glimmer of hope with the federation model, calling for citizen action and support for initiatives like "A Land for All."
Watch on YouTube
https://youtu.be/Ija7A6Csh3o
Links
Read the full paper - “An Israeli/Palestinian Federation: An Alternative Approach to Peace“ by Riccardo Bocco and Nigel Roberts
https://we.tl/t-sMTakmxHGD
A Land For All
https://www.alandforall.org/english/?d=ltr
Geneva Graduate Institute
https://www.graduateinstitute.ch/war-middle-east
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this episode, Matt is joined again by Jacob Ware, a counterterrorism expert with the Council on Foreign Relations and co-author of God, Guns, and Sedition: Far-Right Terrorism in America. They discuss the unsettling question of what far-right extremism, with its proponents feeling emboldened and legitimized by Donald Trump’s election, might look like during his second term in office.
Jacob helps unpack how these movements are evolving, the risks they pose to democratic institutions, and what the next four years might hold for these groups in terms of recruitment, violence, and public visibility of their hateful worldview. It’s a critical conversation we hope you’ll find steers away from hyperbole, focusing instead on historical lessons and current dynamics shaping this moment.
So, grab your coffee—or maybe something stronger—and join us for an in-depth look at the challenges ahead.
Get Jacob’s book God, Guns, and Sedition: Far-Right Terrorism in America:
https://www.cfr.org/book/god-guns-and-sedition
https://www.amazon.com/God-Guns-Sedition-Far-Right-Terrorism/dp/0231211228
Jacob’s work for the Council on Foreign Relations: https://www.cfr.org/expert/jacob-ware
Jacob’s work for Lawfare: https://www.lawfaremedia.org/contributors/jware
Follow Jacob on Bluesky & X
https://bsky.app/profile/jacobware.bsky.social
https://x.com/Jacob_A_Ware
Relevant articles and reporting"Understanding the Threats to US Election Security in 2024" by Kat Duffy & Jacob Ware | Council on Foreign Relations
"The Terrorist Threat from the Fractured Far Right" by Bruce Hoffman & Jacob Ware | Lawfare
"The Proud Boys Love a Winner" by Juliette Kayyem | The Atlantic
"Far-right extremists celebrate, see opportunity in second Trump win" by Hannah Allam | The Washington Post
"Pete Hegseth, Trump’s Pentagon pick, sparks alarm over far-right extremism" by Alice Herman | The Guardian
Support Secrets and SpiesBecome a “Friend of the Podcast” on Patreon for £3/$4: www.patreon.com/SecretsAndSpies
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this episode of Espresso Martini, Chris and Matt examine the potentially seismic shifts for the US and the Western alliance if Trump executes his plans to overhaul the federal workforce. They discuss the risk of a mass exodus of career officials, the politicization of intelligence agencies, and the broader implications for national security. They also explore Garrett Graff’s thought-provoking scenarios for America’s future, comparing the possibility of federal collapse to a fragmented state-driven system akin to Europe. In addition, the hosts explore Russia’s alleged GRU-led sabotage of European air cargo hubs, assessing how these operations fit into a broader strategy of hybrid warfare. The episode wraps up with a discussion on satire’s role in media, sparked by The Onion’s satirical purchase of Infowars, an incisive critique of the growing overlap between parody and disinformation in the modern media landscape.
Watch us on YouTube
https://youtu.be/oZ5pv31_60w
Articles discussed in today’s episode
“Trump’s Deep State Revenge” by Shane Harris | The Atlantic
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/intelligence-agencies-trump-loyalists/680625/
“Two scenarios for the years ahead” by Garrett Graff | Doomsday Scenario
https://www.doomsdayscenario.co/p/two-scenarios-for-the-years-ahead
“Mystery fires were Russian 'test runs' to target cargo flights to US” by Paul Kirby | BBC News
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c07912lxx33o
“The Onion’s Most Trenchant Headline” by Megan Garber | The Atlantic
https://www.theatlantic.com/culture/archive/2024/11/onion-infowars-acquisition-satire/680667/
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
We wanted to drop a quick update about the podcast this weekend. New episodes of Espresso Martini and our Patreon-exclusive show, Extra Shot, are running just a little behind schedule. Listeners in the US and the UK can expect them in their feeds on Sunday. For our friends Down Under, that’ll probably be Monday.
Both are still on the way, just not on Saturday, as expected. We thank you for your patience. Enjoy your weekend, everyone. -
In this conversation, award-winning investigative journalist Philip Obaji discusses the increasing influence of the Russian Wagner Group in Africa, particularly in relation to military coups and economic interests. He shares insights into the motivations behind Russia's actions in the region, the impact of Yevgeny Prigozhin's death on Wagner's operations, and his personal experiences reporting in dangerous environments. Obaji highlights the human rights violations committed by Russian paramilitaries, including sexual assaults and massacres, emphasizing the need for greater awareness and reporting on these issues. This conversation delves into the complex and often dark relationship between Russia and various African nations, focusing on the involvement of Russian mercenaries, the exploitation of local populations, and the growing influence of China. Philip Obaji shares insights from his reporting on atrocities committed by Russian forces, including sexual violence and child labor in mining operations. The discussion also touches on local perceptions of Russian influence, the impact of disinformation campaigns, and the need for accountability from the international community.
Find out more about Philips's work here: https://www.thedailybeast.com/author/philip-obaji-jr/
Connect with him on X here: https://twitter.com/PhilipObaji
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this conversation, David Bickford shares his fascinating journey from a unique childhood to a distinguished career in the intelligence services, specifically as a legal director for MI5 and MI6. He discusses the complexities of balancing national security with legality, the current threats posed by Russia and China, and the evolving landscape of intelligence work. Transitioning into a novelist, Bickford reflects on the inspiration behind his books, the writing process he shares with his wife, and offers valuable advice for aspiring writers and those considering a career in intelligence.
To find out more about David and his latest novel, “Katya The Informer”, please visit his website: https://davidbickford.co.uk/
Watch this interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/0zPfzbDOrIc
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this episode of Espresso Martini, Chris and Matt discuss the alarming news that North Korea is sending up to 12,000 troops to bolster Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. They explore the implications of North Korea gaining combat experience and modern warfare training and whether these troops are likely to be anything more than cannon fodder for Putin’s war. Next, they unpack the death of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, mastermind of the October 7th attacks, killed by Israeli forces after a years-long manhunt. In a twist of fate, it was trainee soldiers who found him. While his final defiance is already being mythologized by supporters, Chris and Matt assess whether his death will weaken Hamas or bolster its extremist factions. They also explore the arrest of seven Israelis accused of spying for Iran and how these betrayals compromised national security. Finally, they examine growing threats against FEMA workers in North Carolina, driven by conspiracy theories that disrupted disaster relief efforts and underscore the real dangers of misinformation.
Watch us on YouTube
https://youtu.be/bP_YTHABle4
Articles discussed in today’s episode
"North Korea 'sends 1,500 special forces with fake Russian IDs' to support Putin's war against Ukraine" by Deborah Haynes | Sky News
https://news.sky.com/story/north-korea-sends-1-500-special-forces-with-fake-russian-ids-to-support-putins-war-against-ukraine-13235751
"Yahya Sinwar’s final moments and the Israeli trainees who found him" by Julian Borger | The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/18/yahya-sinwar-final-moments-israeli-infantry-tracked-him-down
"Seven Israelis arrested for spying for Iran, providing info on army bases" by Jacob Laznik & Eye Young | Jerusalem Post
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-825487
"Suspect arrested after reports of threats toward FEMA operations in North Carolina" by Andy Rose, Paradise Afshar, Ella Nilsen & Gabe Cohen | CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/14/us/fema-helene-north-carolina-reported-threats/index.html
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
Chris is unwell so there won’t be a new episode this week. Instead, Chris is re-sharing the first-ever episode in which he is joined by the author Meredith Tax, and they discuss her book “The Double Bind”, which looks at the problematic relationship between Anglo American left and the Muslim right. Later in the podcast, they also discuss the role of Kurdish women in the fight against ISIS.
You can get a copy of the Double Bind here:
UK
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Double-Bind-Muslim-Anglo-American-Universal/dp/0988830302/ref=sr_1_1?crid=ZKEJ0U88CK4F&keywords=the+double+bind+meredith+tax&qid=1699649198&sprefix=the+double+bind+meredith+tax%2Caps%2C225&sr=8-1
US
https://www.amazon.com/Double-Bind-Muslim-Anglo-American-Universal/dp/0988830302/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2SGNS9LZ9PFXX&keywords=the+double+bind+meredith+tax&qid=1699649248&sprefix=the+double+bind+meredith+tax%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1
AUS
https://www.amazon.com.au/Double-Bind-Muslim-Anglo-American-Universal/dp/0988830302/ref=sr_1_1?crid=238AGSX9HY3UG&keywords=THE+DOUBLE+BIND+MEREDITH+TAX&qid=1699649285&sprefix=the+double+bind+meredith+tax%2Caps%2C184&sr=8-1
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this episode of Espresso Martini, Chris and Matt discuss a new public opinion poll revealing a sharp decline in Palestinian support for Hamas after a brutal year of war in Gaza. They also explore Iran’s troubling alliances with criminal organizations to carry out assassinations in the West, and Russia’s use of a remote Norwegian town in the Arctic as a laboratory for hybrid warfare. Lastly, 40 years after The Hunt for Red October, they reflect on the enduring legacy of Tom Clancy, whose work continues to shape military fiction and public perceptions of global conflict. Tune in for a compelling mix of current events, espionage, and cultural reflections on the impact of techno-thrillers.
You can now watch us on Youtube: https://youtu.be/Vb4U23bn80s
Articles discussed in today’s episode
“Hamas Is Monstrous. Most Gazans Agree.” by Ahmed Fouad Alkhatib | The Dispatch
“Iran turns to Hells Angels and other criminal gangs to target critics” by Greg Miller, Souad Mekhennet & Cate Brown | The Washington Post
“Russia’s Espionage War in the Arctic” by Ben Taub | The New Yorker
“Tom Clancy’s legend began 40 years ago – with a nudge from The Post” by Dan Diamond | The Washington Post
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
Today’s episode brings you an in-depth look into one of the most mysterious and controversial sabotage incidents in recent history – the Nord Stream Pipeline attack. Joining both Chris and Matt is investigative journalist Florian Flade, who has been at the forefront of uncovering the truth behind the explosions that shook Europe.
Florian, working with the German public broadcaster Tagesschau, has spent years investigating issues surrounding national security, terrorism, and intelligence. In this episode, we explore the tangled web of geopolitical intrigue surrounding the Nord Stream pipeline bombings, examining who may be responsible and what this attack means for Ukraine’s potential future in the EU and NATO. From questions of Ukrainian involvement to the presence of Russian spy ships in the Baltic, we’ll be unpacking a story filled with uncertainty, strategic sabotage, and high-stakes diplomacy.
So, tune in as we dive into the facts, theories, and investigative breakthroughs that shed light on this murky case.
Follow Florian on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/FlorianFlade
Articles and reporting discussed in the episode"New clue apparently leads to Ukraine" by Florian Flade & Manuel Bewarder | Tagesschau (May 2023)
"Search in Germany" by Florian Flade & Manuel Bewarder | Tagesschau (June 2023)
"Sailing yacht with stopover in Poland" by Florian Flade, Manuel Bewarder, Michael Götschenberg, Georg Heil & Holger Schmidt | Tagesschau (June 2023)
"Denying All Involvement" by Florian Flade, Manuel Bewarder, et al. | Tagesschau (September 2023)
"New list from Poland raises questions" by Florian Flade, Manuel Bewarder, Michael Götschenberg, Georg Heil & Holger Schmidt | Tagesschau (September 2023)
"Sweden wants to stop Nord Stream proceedings" by Florian Flade & Manuel Bewarder | Tagesschau (February 2024)
"First arrest warrant for Nord Stream attacks" by Florian Flade, Manuel Bewarder, Michael Götschenberg, Georg Heil & Holger Schmidt | Tagesschau (August 2024)
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
In this special episode, Matt welcomes back Phillip Smyth just days after his last appearance to analyze another major development in the Middle East: the assassination of Hezbollah’s secretary general, Hassan Nasrallah, in a targeted Israeli airstrike. Nasrallah’s death has sent shockwaves across Lebanon, Iran, and the wider network of Iran-backed militias, raising pressing questions about Hezbollah’s future and its role in regional power dynamics.
Phillip returns to help unpack the key players, their motives, and the potential fallout from this strike. Together, they examine Israel’s strategic objectives, Iran’s retaliatory actions, and the broader implications for the already fragile situation in the Middle East. They also explore the ongoing Israeli ground offensive and Iran’s ballistic missile strikes in response.
It’s a rapidly evolving situation, so join Phillip and Matt as they break down the latest developments and consider what might come next.
Phillip’s work for West Point’s Combatting Terrorism Center: https://ctc.westpoint.edu/authors/phillip-smyth/.
Phillip’s work at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/experts/phillip-smyth
Follow Phillip on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/PhillipSmyth
Relevant articles and reporting"Iran’s Strikes on Israel Look Calculated to Shore Up Regional Alliance" by Erika Solomon | The New York Times
"A Wider War in the Middle East, From Hamas to Hezbollah and Now Iran" by David E. Sanger | The New York Times
"Israel Has Destroyed Half of Hezbollah’s Arsenal, US and Israeli Officials Say" by Edward Wong, Julian E. Barnes & Eric Schmitt | The New York Times
"Deep intelligence penetration enabled Israel to kill Hassan Nasrallah" by Dan Sabbagh | The Guardian
"How Israel's bitter 2006 war with Hezbollah could shape possible Lebanon invasion" by Robert Tollast | The National
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
On today’s episode, Phillip Smyth, the guru for all things related to Iranian proxy groups, returns to chat with Matt about the exploding pagers and radios that maimed thousands of Hezbollah members last week and the following wave of Israeli airstrikes targeting the group’s long-range missile and drone forces. They discuss the implications for Hezbollah’s communication networks and command structure and the broader impact these events will have on the regional war that’s now consumed the Middle East for a year.
Phillip’s work for West Point’s Combatting Terrorism Center: https://ctc.westpoint.edu/authors/phillip-smyth/.
Phillip’s work at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/experts/phillip-smyth
Follow Phillip on Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/PhillipSmyth
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird -
Hello, everyone. As Chris and Matt are working on new interviews this week, we are sharing a preview of our Extra Shot episode from September 13th. On this episode we look at the weaponisation of disgust, a peek inside a US Far-Right militia and a globally integrated ISIS.
Articles discussed in the show:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-stochastic-terrorism-uses-disgust-to-incite-violence/
https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-secret-ap3-militia-american-patriots-three-percent
https://warontherocks.com/2024/07/a-globally-integrated-islamic-state/
Become a “Friend of the Podcast” on Patreon and get access to "Extra Shot" for £3/$4: www.patreon.com/SecretsAndSpies
Take part in our anonymous listener survey which closes on Monday 24th September: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MSRSSSP
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For more information about the podcast, check out our website: https://secretsandspiespodcast.com
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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD.
Music by Andrew R. Bird - Montre plus
