Episodes
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Chad talks with Aakash Shah, Founder and CEO of Wyndly (https://www.wyndly.com/), about how he built a new online telehealth experience to expand convenient access to allergy immunotherapy. The pair discuss the mechanics of building an online healthcare operation from scratch, the challenges that arise as you begin to scale your business, and how Aakash utilised his past experience as a software engineer to support his new venture.
Discover why this area of medicine has been overlooked for so long, how COVID has shifted our view on healthcare as a whole, as well as the odd rules and quirks of the FDA when trying to market a new medical service.
To find out more about Aakash’s work with Wyndly you can connect with him on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mraakashshah/) or send him an email: [email protected]
If you’re interested in receiving treatment for persistent allergies, you can book a consultation through Wyndly’s website (https://www.wyndly.com/).
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Your host for this episode has been Chad Pytel. You can find Chad over on Mastodon (https://thoughtbot.social/@cpytel), or connect with via LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpytel/).
If you would like to support the show, head over to our GitHub page (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot), or check out our website (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com).
Got a question or comment about the show? Why not write to our hosts: [email protected]
This has been a thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/) podcast.
Stay up to date by following us on social media - LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/) - Mastodon (https://thoughtbot.social/@thoughtbot) - Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/thoughtbot/)
© 2024 thoughtbot, inc. -
If system design is a team sport, then you need to make sure that your team has the tools they need to work together. In this episode, entrepreneur, CTO, and co-founder Tom Johnson joins us to discuss Multiplayer, a collaborative tool streamlining system design and documentation for developers. Multiplayer is often likened to “Figma for developers,” as it allows teams to map, document, and debug distributed systems visually and collaboratively. Tom shares his experience building this tool, drawing on years of backend development challenges, from debugging to coordinating across teams. We also discuss the business side of startups before learning about the AI features that they have planned for Multiplayer and how it will benefit users, including eliminating time-consuming “grunt work”. Join us to learn how Multiplayer is revolutionizing system design and get a sneak peek into the exciting AI-powered features on the horizon!
Key Points From This Episode:
Introducing Tom Johnson, co-founder of Multiplayer.
An overview of Multiplayer and how it helps developers work on distributed systems.
The teams and developers that will get the most use out of Multiplayer.
Details on Multiplayer’s debugging and auto-documentation tools.
A breakdown of what distributed systems are in modern software development.
Why Tom sees contemporary systems design as a team sport.
Multiplier’s whiteboard-type space and how it allows teams to collaborate.
Tom’s back-end developer experience and how it helped him create Multiplayer.
How Tom co-founded Multiplayer with his wife, Steph Johnson, and her role as CEO.
Why solving a problem you’ve personally experienced is a good starting point for startups.
What you need to have before fundraising: a minimum viable product (MVP).
How they used the open-source software, YJS, for virtual, real-time collaboration.
Insights into Multiplayer’s upcoming AI-powered features.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Thomas Johnson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomjohnson3/)
Thomas Johnson on X (https://x.com/tomjohnson3)
Thomas Johnson on Threads (https://www.threads.net/@tomjohnson3?hl=en)
Steph Johnson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/steph-johnson-14355b3/)
Multiplayer (https://www.multiplayer.app/)
YJS (https://github.com/yjs/yjs)
Figma (https://www.figma.com/)
Chad Pytel on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpytel/)
Chad Pytel on X (https://x.com/cpytel)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
Episodes manquant?
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What if booking a private chef was as easy as ordering an Uber? Iyabo Bello is a serial founder and entrepreneur, best known for iKooK, an app connecting private chefs to their target audience. Join us as she shares the unlikely story of how she came up with the idea to start iKooK after working in fashion design and food science. We get into the weeds with the premise of the app, how it differs from other home chef experiences, and how the cooks are vetted before being allowed to register on the app. Iyabo shares her experience of navigating a double-sided marketplace and discusses the process of building an app and driving traffic toward it instead of her website. We discuss bootstrapping and outsourcing to create a user-friendly, effective app, and handling health and safety as a food service. Join us as we discuss the challenges and benefits of building iKooK, and what you can learn from her journey. Thanks for tuning in.
Key Points From This Episode:
Welcoming Iyabo Bello, founder of iKooK, and the story of the inception of her business.
Her background in fashion design and food science.
The premise of iKooK and how it differs from other home chef experiences.
How the process behind vetting chefs has evolved.
Navigating a double-sided marketplace.
The challenge of finding the right chef with an eye for detail.
Taking down the website to encourage users to book on the app.
Bootstrapping and outsourcing to build the app.
Handling health and safety and building it into the program.
The inclusive and flexible nature of Iyabo’s product.
Challenges she has faced while building the app.
How Jared and Sami would go about assessing the app and user experience.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Iyabo Bello on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/iyabobello/)
iKooK Email ([email protected])
iKooK (https://ikook.info/)
Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/?originalSubdomain=uk)
Jared Turner on X (https://x.com/jaredlt)
Jared Turner on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredlt/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
How do you build a tool that redefines the real estate game for agents and brokers? Today on the show, host Chad Pytel sits down with Chris Fellows, founder and CEO of Bold Street, to explore how his AI-powered platform is reshaping residential investment for real estate professionals. Originally focused on data analytics for big investors, Bold Street pivoted after the Great Recession to meet the needs of agents and brokers. Chris shares how the platform, developed over 18 months, helps agents master investor math and market analysis, boosting efficiency. The conversation dives into current market dynamics, like the rising costs of leads from platforms such as Zillow, which make Bold Street’s value proposition increasingly vital. Chris also expands on the company’s latest round of fundraising before sharing key lessons on scaling a startup in real estate. For these insights and more, don’t miss this fascinating conversation with Chris Fellows!
Key Points From This Episode:
A warm welcome to today’s guest, Chris Fellows, founder and CEO of Bold Street.
Founding Bold Street: their initial AI strategy and how it has shifted.
How their software helps agents and brokers be more efficient.
Key takeaways from bringing their first product to market.
Reflections on what could have helped the development process go more quickly.
Chris and his team’s approach to sales and their general pricing model.
A breakdown of their ideal customer and how they are reaching them.
What they’ve done to address their ideal customers’ biggest objections.
Unpacking current market dynamics, from expensive leads to class action lawsuits.
How Bold Street brings value to the current real estate market.
The benefits and challenges of running a business in such a disrupted market.
Reflections on their current fundraising efforts versus their previous round.
Lessons on scaling a startup both locally and through internet marketing.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Chris Fellows on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chriscfellows/)
Chris Fellows' email ([email protected])
Bold Street (https://www.boldstreet.ai/)
Chad Pytel on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpytel/)
Chad Pytel on X (https://x.com/cpytel)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
What if, instead of asking how to integrate AI into your product, the question was, should you? During this episode, Jared Turner and Sami Birnbaum interview Senior Product Manager at thoughtbot and Founderland Startup Mentor, Bethan Ashley, who shares her insights and advice on how and when to leverage AI tooling. Sharing her career journey leading up to this point, Bethan makes the key distinction between project management and product management, and why this is essential to understand. Next, you’ll hear about her views on the importance of talking to customers about your products and the different ways to reach them effectively. We get into some of the classic reasons that products fail, the appropriate time to bring in a product manager, and a few of the techniques, prompts, and exercises that Bethan favors when mentoring others. Join us as we unpack how to avoid common pitfalls, discuss practical steps to overcome the fear of failure, and share advice for those seeking to put AI tooling into their product. Thanks for tuning in.
Key Points From This Episode:
From building bespoke apps for companies to product management, mentorship, and more: Bethan Ashley’s career journey.
Distinguishing between project management and product management.
Why talking to your customers is fundamental to successful products.
Some of the many different ways to reach customers.
Classic reasons that products fail.
How to identify the point at which a product manager has become a necessity.
Bethan’s path to mentorship through Founderland.
The Speedy Eights exercise that she uses to prompt ideas.
Advice to avoid common pitfalls: just get started.
Exploring the obstacle created by the fear of failure.
Strategies from the book The Mom Test.
Insights on AI in the day-to-day product management space.
Advice for those seeking to put AI tooling into their product.
Spicy takes on product management.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Bethan Ashley on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethanashley/)
Founderland (https://www.founderland.org/)
Customer Discovery Playbook (https://thoughtbot.com/playbook/customer-discovery/preparation-and-setup)
The Mom Test (https://www.amazon.com/Mom-Test-customers-business-everyone/dp/1492180742)
Gamma (https://gamma.app/)
Gemini (https://gemini.google.com/)
Loom (https://www.loom.com/)
Figma (https://www.figma.com/)
Motion (https://www.usemotion.com/)
WIP is waste (https://thoughtbot.com/blog/wip-is-waste#)
Jared Turner on X (https://x.com/jaredlt)
Jared Turner on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredlt/)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
Could our inability to agree be holding us back from achieving meaningful social progress? What if AI could help us "fight better,” not by winning arguments but by resolving conflicts in ways that benefit our communities, businesses, and relationships? Flank’s innovative technology offers just that: a smarter, more empathetic approach to conflict resolution that could transform how we engage with one another. Today, we’re joined by Flank founder, CJ Tayeh, a human rights lawyer turned growth marketer turned social innovator. With a mission to address inequalities and power imbalances, especially around money, she explains how Flank’s AI companion acts as a mediator to foster trust and communication. We explore the different user experiences Flank serves, the careful research and development that went into its creation, and how joining Flank’s community can revolutionize conflict resolution. CJ also shares the challenges the startup faces, the role of interaction design in addressing them, and why high-quality data is crucial for effective AI-driven solutions. Don’t miss this fascinating conversation with serial innovator, CJ Tayeh!
Key Points From This Episode:
An overview of CJ’s journey into the emerging AI startup space.
How growing up in a high-conflict family has informed her work as a social innovator.
The problem Flank is focused on and how it aims to solve that problem with AI.
Perspectives on conflict resolution and the impact of joining Flank’s community.
How Flank’s AI companion acts as a mediator to foster communication and trust.
Different kinds of user experiences that Flank aims to cater to.
The amount of time, effort, and care that went into research and development.
Challenges that Flank faces and how interaction design can address them.
Why machine learning models are only as good as the data you train them with.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Flank (https://flankdigital.org/)
CJ Tayeh on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-tayeh/)
CJ Tayeh on X (https://x.com/oheycj)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://x.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
What happens when competition goes from being a driver of success to a source of division and exclusion? In today’s episode, Chad is joined by Dr. Justin Key, Founder of Black Theorem Consulting, to unpack societal divisions driven by social and economic status. Dr. Key is an accomplished consultant, speaker, and thought leader with expertise in helping organizations achieve growth and innovation through data-driven strategies. He is the founder of Black Theorem Consulting, a firm specializing in harnessing the power of diversity and technology to solve complex business challenges. In our conversation, we unpack today’s topic through the lens of the products and services developers bring to market. We discuss the hyper-competitive nature of society, the impacts of toxic competition, real-world examples of rigid and fluid drivers of division, and why we should not be afraid to discuss race. Explore how digital products and services can drive change on a global scale, how designers and developers can be a part of that change, and why developers need to check their biases when building digital technology. He shares his motivation for starting Black Theorem Consulting, what the company focuses on, and how it is helping drive change. He also shares how he stays motivated, the types of industries Black Theorem Consulting serves, and how you can contribute to a better world. Join us as we untangle systemic societal problems and how to reflect the world you serve in your product or service with Dr. Justin Key!
Key Points From This Episode:
Learn how social and economic status divides society and creates division.
Discover how the impacts of exclusion compound into larger societal problems.
Find out the difference between healthy and unhealthy competition.
Uncover the common misconceptions about power and wealth in society.
Hear how societal divisions have played a role in the decline of mental health.
Explore how the societal structure of America compares to other countries.
Find out why race cannot be ignored when discussing social divisions.
Understand the significance of considering race in discussions about social division.
Positive ways digital products and services can bridge the gap and drive change.
Ways technology creates obstacles between different socio-economic groups.
Steps developers can take to ensure that technology is inclusive and accessible.
Background about Black Theorem Consulting and the services it provides.
How inclusion and equity apply to developers and the development process.
Final takeaways and how to find out more about Black Theorem and Dr. Key.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Dr. Justin Key (https://www.justindkey.com/)
Dr. Justin Key on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/justindkey/)
Dr. Justin Key on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@JustinKey)
Black Theorem Consulting (https://www.blacktheorem.com/)
Gracie's Corner (www.youtube.com/@graciescorner)
Chad Pytel on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpytel/)
Chad Pytel on Mastodon (https://thoughtbot.social/@cpytel)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://x.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
Since its inception in 2017, Sema has been improving outcomes for users, companies, and developers by providing automated tools to assess code. During this episode, we are joined by Sema Founder and CEO, Matt Van Itallie. Matt discusses five reasons why you should know how much generative AI is used in your code, from the capacity to increase the quantity, quality, and maintainability to intellectual property risk. These also include exit risks. Next, we explore how this is detected, how it can be solved, and the advantages of looking at code. Next, we explore the origins of Sema and how Matt sourced his co-founders, consider his thoughts on open source, and why it matters to know how much generative AI is used in your code. Hear advice on where to begin, how much to prioritize precision, and why it is imperative to make generative AI your own. Tune in today to hear all this and more.
Key Points From This Episode:
Introducing Sema CEO and Founder Matt Van Itallie.
How the work is distributed among different target customers: companies, financial and strategic buyers.
Why Sema is language agnostic and what it does instead.
Matt’s belief that the fundamental health of a software product depends on the team.
Understanding key person risk and the concept of golden handcuffs.
How Matt’s background set him up to easily understand the world of coding.
Why the combination of manual implementation and automation via Sema is most effective.
The process behind turning the idea into a product with the University of Michigan and a Founder from AngelList.
Why he does not recommend using his approach.
The single biggest focus: code inspection and due diligence.
Using open source code and the risks involved.
Five sets of reasons why it matters to know how much generative AI is used in your code.
How this is detected and how it can be solved.
Advice on where to begin, how precise to be, and more.
Leveraging the expertise of Co-Founder Brendan Cody-Kenny to build Sema.
Why it is imperative to make generative AI your own.
Free advisory AI counsels that Matt and Sema have set up.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Matt Van Itallie on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mvi/)
Matt Van Itallie on X (https://x.com/vanitallie_matt)
Matt Van Itallie Email ([email protected])
Sema (https://semasoftware.com/ai-code-monitor)
University of Michigan (https://umich.edu/)
AngelList (https://www.angellist.com/)
CoPilot (https://copilot.microsoft.com/)
Chad Pytel on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/cpytel/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
What if diagnosing complex joint disorders could be as precise and personalized as a fingerprint? Today, Will sits down with Nazgol Tavabi and Mohammadreza Movahhedi to discuss their journey of transforming cutting-edge research into a revolutionary AI-powered platform for diagnosing joint disorders.
Nazgol and Mohammadreza are the co-founders of BonePixel, a healthcare startup focused on using AI and big data for the diagnosis and treatment planning of joint disorders. In our conversation, we unpack the origins of BonePixel, the challenges of building a healthcare startup, and how they are leveraging AI to make patient-specific treatment planning more accurate and efficient. Explore how its data-driven process facilitates decision-making for surgeons, how they were able to commercialize the software, and the positive impact it is making on patients’ lives.
They share details about BonePixel’s current state of development, the regulatory hurdles, and their surgeon-centric approach to software development. We discuss the complexities of securing funding and their approach to fostering a healthy company culture. Gain insights into how they make their software inclusive, the ethical aspects of BonePixels development, why human involvement is crucial, and more. Join us to learn how BonePixel is transforming orthopedic care and pushing the boundaries of what’s possible with AI with Nazgol Tavabi and Mohammadreza Movahhedi!
Key Points From This Episode:
Background about the development of BonePixel’s innovative software.
Learn about BonePixel and how it leverages data to improve decision-making.
Hear about BonePixel’s research origins at Harvard Medical School.
How Harvard Medical School is facilitating the commercialization of BonePixel.
Uncover the role that machine learning and AI play in BonePixel’s software.
Find out how their collaborators have acted as data sources for their models.
They share details about upcoming features and software additions.
Discover the core values of BonePixel that are driving its development.
What got them interested in applying their research skills in healthcare.
Explore the ethical considerations that need to be taken into account.
Why human involvement during BonePixels implementation is vital.
Hear their opinion on regulating the development of AI-based technologies.
Lessons from their careers, final takeaways, and how to get in contact with them.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
BonePixel (https://www.bonepixel.com/)
Nazgol Tavabi on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nazgoltavabi/)
Mohammadreza Movahhedi on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mohammadreza-movahhedi-phd-5aa652145/)
Harvard Medical School (https://hms.harvard.edu/)
Boston Children's Hospital (https://www.childrenshospital.org/)
VirtualHip (https://virtualhip.childrenshospital.org/)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email (mailto:[email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
Is it time to rethink how we approach hiring? The traditional recruitment process often fails to capture the true potential of candidates, relying heavily on outdated methods like résumés and generic job descriptions. In this episode, Will sits down with Brian Glover, Co-founder and CEO of Previewed, to unpack the revolutionary interplay between technology and the recruitment sector. Previewed aims to revolutionize how job seekers connect with potential employers by allowing them to showcase their skills and experiences in a more personalized and impactful way. It leverages cutting-edge technology to create a platform that helps candidates stand out in a competitive job market, ensuring that everyone has a fair shot at landing their dream job. In our conversation, we discuss how the Previewed platform creates an immersive, streamlined, and intelligent solution for recruiters and candidates. Learn about the innovative technology behind Previewed’s platform and how it is revolutionizing the traditional recruitment landscape. Discover the inspiration behind Previewed, its approach to career life-cycle, and how it empowers the candidate. We unpack the company’s skill-based assessment method, the ‘gamification’ of recruitment tools, how Previewed’s platform helps with retention, identifying gaps in a candidate’s skills, and much more. Join us as we explore where AI meets talent acquisition and how it turns purpose into a career with Brian Glover. Tune in now!
Key Points From This Episode:
How he uses prayer and meditation to keep him grounded as an entrepreneur.
Overcoming the mental hurdles of being a founder and business owner.
Previewed’s platform and how it leverages AI to enhance the recruitment process.
Issues in the traditional job search and hiring process that Previewed solves.
Discover why aligning a candidate’s job description with their purpose is so vital.
Reasons for Previewed’s skill-based method and how it assesses candidates.
The benefits of Previewed’s skill-based approach for candidates and recruiters.
Brian shares how his hustler background growing up led him to become an entrepreneur.
Hear about Previewed’s roots and the many challenges he overcame starting it.
Recommendations for budding entrepreneurs and what Brian is currently focusing on.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Brian Glover on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brian-glover-startupfounder/)
Previewed (https://www.previewed.careers)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg)
Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
Company culture plays a fundamental role in the success of your organization. Unfortunately, it’s not always clear what methods will lead to optimal outcomes. Top research shows an alarming gap between a company’s stated culture and what employees report about their experience working there. But what if one could harness the power of AI to close this gap? Today on the show, we’re joined by Elie Rashbass, CEO & Co-founder at ScultureAI, a startup developing innovative solutions that shape organizational culture from the ground up. He tells us about the groundbreaking work being done by ScultureAI and how they are leveraging AI to coach everyday interactions between internal staff members and external stakeholders. We discuss the endless interactions that shape company culture, why it matters, and how Elie and his team are helping companies use AI to embed their culture into actualized, organization-wide behavior. To learn more about how AI is used to transform company culture, tune in today!
Key Points From This Episode:
How Elie’s corporate background instilled an appreciation for good company culture.
Co-founding ScultureAI with his father and what led them into the AI startup space.
His father’s experience fostering strong company cultures and his extensive AI research.
The significant gap between what companies say their culture is and what it actually is.
Why company culture matters, from employee well-being to organizational success.
What to consider when selecting and defining your company values.
Common challenges organizations face when implementing company culture.
How ScultureAI is helping companies embed company culture from the ground up.
Their groundbreaking AI-powered behavioral coach and examples of its workflow integration.
Key challenges they’ve encountered working with LLMs and how they’ve addressed these.
What you can expect from the ScultureAI demo and how to get in touch.
An overview of hiring as a potential use case for their behavioral AI coach.
How ScultureAI prioritizes and safeguards user data and privacy.
Overcoming challenges as innovators in the space and advice to other leaders.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Elie Rashbass on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/elie-rashbass-cfa-b78631132/)
ScultureAI (https://sculture.ai/)
Donald Sull (https://mitsloan.mit.edu/faculty/directory/donald-sull)
Sami Birnbaum (https://samibirnbaum.com)
Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/)
Svenja Schäfer (svenjaschaefer.com)
Svenja Schäfer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/svenjaschaefer/)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg)
Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast (https://podcast.thoughtbot.com/)
Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Email ([email protected])
Support Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots (https://github.com/sponsors/thoughtbot) -
By addressing the way that families hire, manage, and pay in-home care professionals, Clara Home Care is reimagining the way that home care is delivered in America, and Jon Levinson is at the helm. He joins us today to share his personal experiences with in-home care that led him to research the industry, identify the challenges, and co-found Clara. Hear how Jon was able to draw on his background in product management for TripAdvisor and Uber to pioneer his company, what it was like to develop early iterations of the product, and how all this resulted in creating the first-ever caregiver-specific payroll platform. We touch on finding the appropriate market, creating foundational code, and the importance of setting best practices to support scaling and changing. Jon also describes the critical role of thoughtbot in setting Clara Home Care up for scaling success. To finish, Jon shares some of the exciting opportunities that exist in the realm of care management, and how Clara is already taking advantage of them. Thanks for listening!
Key Points From This Episode:
Introducing Jon Levinson, Co-Founder and CEO at Clara Home Care.
The role of thoughtbot in bringing Clara to life.
A personal experience that led Jon to pioneer Clara Home Care.
Results of researching the specific problems faced in the broader industry.
His background in product management at TripAdvisor, Uber, and more.
The engineer who became his technical co-founder.
Fundraising choices and investment during his early journey.
Three consumer problems that care agencies do not adequately address.
Why using an agency is still beneficial in comparison to hiring independently.
Developing the first version of the product.
Identifying the opportunity to pioneer the first caregiver-specific payroll platform.
The challenge of finding people seeking a caregiving product.
Setting foundational code structured to scale and the role of Thoughtbot in this process.
Reaching a critical mass by building a strong grounding through relationships.
Balancing building the marketplace, solving discovery, and investing in caregiving technology.
Flexible metrics for success in a given marketplace.
Why caregivers still favor agencies over independent work.
Understanding how emotionally taxing the caregiver coordination role can be.
Features that support the relationship with long-term care insurance providers and care management.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Jon Levinson on X (https://x.com/levinsonjon)
Jon Levinson on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonlevinson1/)
Jon Levinson Email ([email protected])
Clara Home Care (https://www.clarahomecare.com/)
Clara Home Care on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/HomeCareNearMe/)
Clara Home Care on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/clarahomecare/)
Thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com/)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg)
Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot)
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In this episode of Giant Robots Smashing into Other Giant Robots (On Tour!), hosts Sami Birnbaum and Svenja Schäfer are joined by Karishma Gupta, the Founder and CEO of Eslando Circular Fashion. Eslando is a fashion company dedicated to changing the clothing industry through circular economy principles and textile recycling. Its mission is to simplify recycling and ensure compliance with EU regulations by connecting brands, consumers, and recyclers, fostering transparency and efficiency in the fashion industry. In today’s conversation, Karishma delves into her company’s innovative Digital Product Passport and how it’s revolutionizing the fashion and textile industries. We discuss how her company helps the right material get to the right recycler using data and leveraging AI to map the process. Tune in to explore how the circular economy applies to the fashion industry, the current recycling gaps, what motivates fashion brands to be more sustainable, and how Eslando is reducing the carbon footprint of the textile supply chain!
Key Points From This Episode:
Background on Karishma and what led her to start a tech company.
How recycling in fashion differs from other industries that recycle.
An outline of the biggest recycling hurdles facing the fashion industry.
The complex range of materials in clothes and the problems they create.
Karishma’s transition from the fashion industry to founding a tech-based company.
Some of the materials in clothes that are endlessly recyclable.
Details about the Digital Product Passport and what it offers the supply chain.
Benefits and costs of sustainable regulations and solutions for fashion brands.
Ways that Eslando is monetizing its various solutions.
The value proposition the Digital Product Passport offers consumers.
How long it took to create and build a workable prototype.
What Karishma has planned for the future of Eslando Circular Fashion.
Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:
Karishma Gupta on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/karishma248/)
Karishma Gupta on X (https://x.com/_karishmagupta)
Eslando Circular Fashion (https://www.eslando.com)
Innovate UK (https://www.ukri.org/councils/innovate-uk/)
Carbon13 (https://carbonthirteen.com)
Sami Birnbaum (https://samibirnbaum.com)
Sami Birnbaum on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/samibirnbaum/)
Svenja Schäfer (svenjaschaefer.com)
Svenja Schäfer on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/svenjaschaefer/)
Will Larry on X (https://x.com/will23larry)
Will Larry on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/william-larry/)
Victoria Guido on X (https://x.com/victori_ousg)
Victoria Guido on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/victorialguido/)
thoughtbot (https://thoughtbot.com)
thoughtbot on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/)
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Giant Robots On Tour Hosts Sami Birnbaum and Jared Turner introduce Sheng-Hung Lee, a designer, PhD researcher at MIT AgeLab, and board director at the Industrial Designers Society of America. Sheng-Hung shares his journey into design and engineering, emphasizing the importance of interpreting signals in design and the evolving role of designers from problem-solvers to culture shapers. He discusses how designers must now consider broader, systematic issues such as climate change and aging. Sheng-Hung explains that design is a teachable and essential life skill, highlighting the significance of personal experiences and failures in learning design. He elaborates on the concept of signals, explaining that they represent different perspectives and interpretations in design, which are crucial in addressing complex problems.
The conversation shifts to practical design applications and Sheng-Hung's work in smart homes for aging populations. He discusses the integration of various smart systems and the importance of designing for different life stages rather than specific age groups. Jared and Sami also engage Sheng-Hung in discussing the worst and best-designed products, where Sheng-Hung mentions his initial skepticism but eventual appreciation for facial recognition technology.
MIT AgeLab (https://agelab.mit.edu/)
Industrial Designers Society of America (https://www.idsa.org/)
Follow Sheng-Hung Lee on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/shenghunglee/). Visit his website: shenghunglee.com (https://www.shenghunglee.com/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
SAMI: Hello again, and this is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots On Tour Series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum.
JARED: And I'm your other host, Jared Turner.
SAMI: If you are wondering, which you might have been for a while now, where are Will or Victoria, well, make sure you find one of our previous podcasts where we introduce the Giant Robots on Tour Series, and you'll understand why you're hearing myself and Jared a little bit more frequently than before. In that podcast, we throw random icebreakers at each other, and we find out that Svenja does not like online banking. And if you haven't listened to our previous podcast with our guest, Ishani, check that out as quick as you can and find out why AI is compared to babies.
Joining us today is Sheng-Hung Lee, a Designer and PhD Researcher at MIT AgeLab and Board Director at the Industrial Designers Society of America. Sheng-Hung, I'm going to level with you. I've done my research. I've done my due diligence on the guests that we have on this podcast, and I'm exhausted.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
SAMI: I've looked through your own website, and I've read as much as I can find about you. And between education, experience, awards, scholarships, there is an incredible amount of things that you're involved in that you get up to. And it really wasn't good for my own self-esteem just to see how much you have going on.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
SAMI: Jared, a question for you first. Bear in mind, the only thing I've ever been awarded is my own driving license. So, our guest, Sheng-Hung, how many awards do you think he has currently listed on his website? Give a guess.
JARED: Oh gosh, I remember looking at the page, and I remember having to scroll.
SAMI: [laughs] Yeah, you had to scroll.
JARED: Let's pick 33.
SAMI: 33. Do you know what? It's not even close. Okay, he's nearly double that. So, he's up at 60 awards that are currently listed. So, we're talking about a guest that you guys do not want to miss. And you want to make sure that you get into this conversation. I always like to go back to the start with my guests. So, everyone has a story. And I'm interested, Sheng-Hung, in your journey and what led you into the world of design and engineering.
SHENG-HUNG: My personal definition of design is, like, decoding signals. So, everything in our lives, like, we have different types of signals. How do we interpret the signal? How do we, like, understand, or perceive different types of signals in our lives? And I feel design is more like...not just creation. It is creation, for sure, but also about curation. I feel like, for me, problem-solving or, like, problem-defining is really interesting. And especially you mentioned, like, my very early stage as a designer, the reason I submitted my work to get an award is because I want to show my problem-solving skill.
And I realize nowadays, like, the problem is too complicated. It's not just about solving problems, right? I mean, I feel design is more bigger than that, especially now most of the problems are systematic and complex. Climate change, right? Like, you think about aging, and you think about all this, like, sustainable issues. I feel like designers, like, for me, starting from problem solver, as engineer, and now more I've become like a translator, curator, or even, like, a culture shaper. How do you shape the culture you want, right?
Especially now, like, AI it's just, like...that really let me rethink about my role as designer, you know, because everyone can have tons of ideas, but the truth is, like, we have so many ideas, but do you know what good taste is about? Do you know what the good qualities of life's about? So, you have to have some personal experiences to really help people to understand or curate the vision in the future.
SAMI: That's really interesting. I struggle to dress my kids in the morning from a design perspective, right? I don't get colors, and I don't understand necessarily how they match and how to get things working. In fact, sometimes I'll dress my kids only to find that my wife has redressed the kids. Things are that bad at home.
Do you think then design is something which can be taught, or is it something, like, innate? Is it something, in your own experiences, that it's kind of part of your nature? So, you see the world differently to someone like myself or Jared sees the world. Or could that be something which we could pick up on, you know, and learn about?
SHENG-HUNG: Yeah, I definitely think design can be teachable. It's skillable. And I feel like, yeah, people talk about this is, like, a hardcore skill. It's a soft skill. No, I think design is a life skill. It's a human skill. So, that includes like, for example, like, yeah, how do you choose the color? How do you choose the clothes for kids? But also about, like, how do you celebrate the quality of lives, right? How do you, like, have better, like, qualities?
And I feel like, I don't know, life skill means, like, team building, creative leadership, knows people, listening to people. And, for me, that's part of design because you're decoding different signals. You understand your life. You perceive different types of noises. Or how do you resonate with other people? And that's a life skill, I think. And I also feel most of the design skills I learned is actually not from school. It's from, like, personal life failure [laughs].
SAMI: That's really interesting. I just want to jump in because I don't know if I fully understand what you mean by signals. Can you just elaborate on that a little bit more? And then, I will bring you back up on personal failures.
SHENG-HUNG: Signal is like different ways of seeing things, right? So, for example, like, if I go to wait in line for a free bagel, right? You share this with your friends. What I see is it's a free bagel. But what my friends see is like, oh, probably, like, I don't need to wait in line and so many challenges. You know, I have to, like, oh, why should I get this? But I see very clearly I want a free bagel. So, these are different. It's the same thing but different message mixed up, right?
And then, for me, I see design, like, it happens every day. It's a life skill. For example, like, I saw the challenges, but what if we think another perspective to rethink about what kind of challenge [inaudible 06:38] or reframe the right questions, right? And all this, like, mixed all together, it feels like it's not just about drawing beautiful sketches or rendering sexy, you know, ideas. It's all about, like, how do you frame these challenges? How do you look at this? Can you see the question from social aspect, from cultural aspect, or you just see this as a solution-driven approach?
JARED: In some cases, I feel, there is an element of subjectivity to the designs, but then we also want to measure the success of a design. Do you have any tips for, like, how you go about putting numbers to what defines success for a particular design?
SHENG-HUNG: This is such a great question, especially now my research focus is really on services, you know, service design, experience design. Like, how do you quantify this, right? For example, three of us we go to the restaurant, and I feel it's really, really great restaurant. And probably some people feel no, that's not really great. And then, how do we quantify this, right?
And then, I feel it's sometimes, like, really by personal preferences. It's hard to measure. Maybe there will be some sort of, like, a principle direction or criteria we can follow, so, for example, service quality metrics or something, like, based on people's life experiences. I feel it's hard to measure, especially now the design challenge the question it's really complicated.
Some people talk about demographic. How do you, like, [inaudible 08:09] design? Like, for example, a participant design process, right? Or, like, inclusiveness. People talk about equity, power, power dynamic. And I think it's less of a measure or quantify. It's more about do you show your respect? Can we be more inclusive in this process? Can we really engage or integrate multiple voices in this design process?
And I feel like that kind of shows the flexibility, also, the real flexibility of the design, not just that, oh, we look for one single solution. Because, most of the time, we actually want to design for a solution, but, actually, I feel now the shift is from we try to build the condition to let people land on this condition and solve the problem. So, in the end, we'll be like, yeah, we landed here, and we can solve the problem together collectively. So, something I feel a little bit different, but that's a great question. It's open-ended. Yeah.
JARED: Yeah. Thank you. There's a lot to think about there. I want to bring it back to failure because this is something I think about a lot in terms of teaching and learning from history versus learning from your own failure.
We have, like, thousands of years of history of failure. You think we have made all the mistakes already, and, oh, it should be easy, right? All we need to do is teach all of the young generation about all of this failure, and then they'll remember not to do it. But in reality, it doesn't really work that way. I find the strength of the argument is oftentimes weak compared to failing yourself and really deeply learning that lesson. I'm curious about your thoughts on that. And then, I'm also curious to hear about some of your, let's call them, best failures.
SHENG-HUNG: I personally feel like people fail. They fail forward, not backward. So, even if you fail, you move a little bit. It depends on how crazy, right, and how fast you fail. It's an iterative process. The reason I say learning from failure because from traditional Asian family, Asian students, right? Probably in the past, I would say I raised my hand. I want to learn, or I ask senior people. I want to learn. But, actually, more than that, it says, "I want to experience. I want to be part of it," right? So, you're not becoming the manager because you learn to become a...no, you're in that position, and you learn to be a manager.
So, I learned that mindset when I worked at IDEO. And one of the senior design directors told me, "No, you should say, 'I want to experience.'" So, that means that you have fully immersed experiences. And one of the best examples for me is that the first two years I worked at IDEO and IDEO Asia, supporting projects in Tokyo, Shanghai, Singapore offices, and sometimes European, like, office work; the first two years, my confidence almost collapsed. I have to collect my confidence. It's so hard because I'm eager to learn so many things. I didn't beat myself. And then, after two years, I met an amazing, like, design mentor. And I started the things I'm good at as product designer, a tangible designer. I start as product-focused and thinking about whole design process.
And then, I start to collect my confidence. And I realized every single project at IDEO or in my life it's a vehicle, you know. And then, you always connect the dots when you're looking backwards. And you realize, oh, this is failure. Let me know what do you mean by client management? What do you mean by, like, teamworking? Because everyone is from so diverse background. And everyone says, "I'm a designer," but they have different interpretation. And how do you communicate it, right? And how do you keep the conversation transparent and also effective, and how do you empower people? And I feel because of that connect the dots process, also, all the things I want to learn, I want to experience it really helps me to grow at the third year or second year in IDEO.
And that really makes me think about, oh, wow, I didn't know. I failed completely. And that's really healthy, for me, because you become very strong. At some point, I started to realize, oh, what do you mean by...what does it mean by design consultancy business? What we can sell. Where's our capacity, our limitation? You know, other than just, oh, everything's, like, imaginative conceptual. I kind of know what happened, and I know the boundary. And I know how can I empower people and also the client.
SAMI: Yeah, embracing failure is a real strength. At thoughtbot, we kind of...if we're developing products and we're, let's say, designing or coding, whether websites or applications, we have this concept of failing fast. So, the faster you can fail, the quicker you can iterate towards the right solution. And that's something which is difficult to embrace because the first time you do it, I want this to be perfect, and I want to build it in the way that it works. But, actually, you'll spend a lot of time trying to get towards that perfection, and it's much better to ship faster, fail faster, and then get towards the solution.
I noticed as well that...well, I read that the one thing you've been recently working on is designed for the aging population, so more specifically, smart homes for the aging populations. Shout out to my parents if they're looking for a smart home. Sorry, mom and dad.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
SAMI: I've always found, especially my generation, so I'm about...I'm not about; I am 32 years [chuckles] old. So yeah, there's always been, like, a big gap between kind of my generation, the way we've engaged with technology products, the way my parents' generation have been able to. And I imagine a future where my kids are running around in VR headsets, and I'm still, you know, using a basic laptop. I would love to know more about your work kind of in this area and designing for a different sector of the population.
SHENG-HUNG: My master thesis and my master project is focused on redesigning, like, smart footwear for aging population, and then that's part of the smart home ecosystem. And I was actually impressed and surprised. It's like most of the sponsors or clients we talk about, like, people [inaudible 14:38] to think about just the product level, so smart like [inaudible 14:43], smart like a door, or smart like, you know, like a bed or a smart, like, alarm clock.
People start to think about how can we integrate all this system together? Because, like, for example, if you bought Amazon, you know, versus Apple and all these different devices, the platform is really a problem because the products cannot communicate with each other. And we want to make sure all the products can communicate and support you, or, like, they can at least receive your data or information to give the appropriate response.
So, the smart home project starts to think about from ideas to become more like platform integration. IKEA is the best example, right? Like, I think two years ago, they talk about, yeah, they launched their first app, right? Everything is, yeah, it seems like, oh, what's the big deal about this, right? No, but you think of this from the intention perspective to actually connect the whole system together because they want to make sure their internal designer, developer they really can think through their own internal system to make sure everything's connected, interconnected, not just, oh, you do a part of this. We sell this to a certain Asian, and it didn't really connect.
So, I feel like when we designed it, it's really from the system perspective to talk about a smart home. And then, regarding of, like, design across [inaudible 16:04] generation, that's really important, actually, because especially now I'm focused on design for retirement. And I shifted to design for longevity. And then, the cool thing about this is, like, we think about our life in terms of age, but, actually, now we need to think about our life in terms of different life stages, different lifestyle.
The book called "Stage (Not Age)", means, like, now we cannot even describe people above 100 years old or 85 years. So, we call them future hood, right? So, like, different life stages. And I feel like that really impacts, as designers, the way we design products or interfaces, right? And it has to evolve with people. When you say, for example, if we have, like, a smart, like, a robot in our home, they have to know your personal routine. And you kind of grow, right? For example, oh, I get older. I move slower, or my mobility is different, and it changes. How does that mean to our product or our smart services?
And I feel like across different generations, it's really thinking about design for different people in different life stages. And that's really important, not just about financial planning or about your future education, family, community, right? Now people are probably thinking about aging in place. My parents just bought a second home. They're thinking about retirement life. And so, these are things that really impact all aspects of life. And I feel like the idea of one solution for all the era is kind of over because we have to think about not just one solution, multiple solution tailor-made for multiple different people in different life stages.
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JARED: And, Sheng-Hung, in one of your articles that I was reading about design for longevity, you sort of say that design for aging isn't just about designing for older people, but rather, I think one of your colleagues asked this question, which I really liked, which is, how can inclusive methods build elegant design solutions that work for all? And I find that a really aspirational goal.
But one of the things, say, at thoughtbot, when they're building a product, so we often talk about targeting a specific niche or a specific user base because then we can really optimize for them. And so, you're designing something that's elegant, and that works for all. It doesn't sound very easy. It sounds like a good challenge. And I'm curious about how do you go about that, and do you have any examples you can you can share?
SHENG-HUNG: Design for all elegantly also seamlessly. Optimize everyone's needs or, like, design process. I feel...because my topic is focused on financial planning, right? And I think about everyone's income level is different. Their investable income asset is also different. We have a different situation, right? Our family issue, the healthcare condition is also different. And I feel like that, also, if we look at this question, we should think about, okay, how do we define design for all, right? Is it universal design, or is it inclusive design?
I think there are definitely some, like, basic or fundamental, like, foundation or criteria we need to meet. Like, for example, human-centered, right? Or, like, we think about accessibility for certain technology. What's the threshold for a certain way of use the technology or product? That could be, like, a universal or, like, basic. Like I said, people's life stages are so different. And can we really make sure our product or interfaces is always dynamic, always change? Design for transformation, right? And I feel the ideas of changing is kind of scaring for most people. Because you don't want to, like, you woke up, and you realize your iPhone just update the whole interfaces, and you suddenly don't know how to use it [laughs]. It changed too dramatically.
What I mean by change is like, it's a gradual integration process. And I feel that's kind of beautiful. Like, for example, the way I use my bicycle, the biking, right? They can ultimately adjust my speed, recharging, or understand my personal preferences. That could be something I think is powerful for future for providing the right solution, yeah. But also, it's a benefit of this, but also, there's downsides. Like, maybe because of that, we all live our own personal bubbles pretty well, right? Like, oh, yeah, yeah, I read a newspaper. No, you read the newspaper that I curated for you. So, somehow, the information started different [laughs]. So, there's a gap, but I don't know. It's very cool. It's very great, great question. I think there's still...I don't have the exact same answer, but I feel that could be potential for now. Yeah.
JARED: Yeah, I really like that. So, it's not just a one-size-fits-all-all, but, like, it's a sort of an elegant transformation over the course of someone's life. We've discussed a few different things like design for longevity. You touched on there, as we were speaking, human-centered design. I know you've made a distinction of humanity-centered design as well, and there's also life-centered design. I wonder if you could give us and our listeners a little rapid-fire explainer of each of them.
SHENG-HUNG: Like, when we talk about human-centered design, right? Like, it's, like, a buzzword. And everyone talks about HCD, and most people think, oh, if you got a post-it note, you're, like, a HCD designer. No, like, what does that mean, right [laughs]? It's very cliché. And they're like, oh, yeah, all these, like, HCD designers bring the post-it notes with Sharpies and go to facilitate tons of workshops, and they sit and know people. And I feel it's more than that, right?
Human-centered is really, like, put yourself, designers, in the shoes of clients, users, customers, and participants to know their needs, their desire and address their pain point. And I think for human-centered design like Don Norman said in his latest book, it's not just about design as a discipline. It also covers, like, politics, covers, like, ethical issue, culture. It's broader. And, for me, the simplest version is, like, you design with care. You design with human temperature. We create technology with human temperature. That means that we're now for this technology to [inaudible 23:13] technology. We know why we need that technology.
So, for example, if you provide the, like, the cell phone to the developing countries, you probably don't want to send, like, the latest cell phone. You want to send them, like, the adequate technology. What I mean by that is like, it's very, like, stereotype, but I'm trying to explain the idea is like, oh, Nokia could be a great option at this point, for example. You can communicate. You don't need, like, crazy, like, AR VR function. You at least can communicate. So, it's adequate. I think that kind of lens is, like, you think about the culture, the needs, economic, social status. And then, you can start to move on and upgrade the devices.
And I feel like life-centered is even broader. It's like, can you design something to the lens of cats, your pets, your animals? So, it's really like, it's really...it sounds a little bit like a speculative design. But the truth is, like, we can shift our perspective to different kinds of species, cross-species, not just focus on human, because everything we design definitely starts from also for a human being. But now life-centered is like, it's longer, broader. And then, for me, it also means like, we just talk about life-centered. It's like, really think through all different stages of life, not just, like, focus on one single age or a single stage, too specific, too narrow. It's, like, broader.
So, when we talk about life-centered design, LCD, we really think about a lot of different systems, framework. What's the model we can follow? You know, so we're also thinking about policy, about power dynamic, government, ethical issues. So, this, I think, like, it's broader, and it's really large. Sometimes it's pretty vague, for sure. We have to use some cases or really think about in different contexts. Context is really important, designed for different contextual knowledges and needs.
SAMI: Yeah, I think that is actually a really helpful understanding. Myself I don't know anything about those concepts, so to kind of get that theoretical understanding and explanation from yourself is really helpful. In a more practical sense, I have a question, which is a very selfish question. The reason it's a selfish question is because I want to know what do you think? When you look at the world through your designer lenses, what do you think is the worst-designed product you've ever seen or come across? And I think I know the answer to this. I think there is a right answer.
While you have a think, I'll share my answer. I don't know if you have this because you said you're based in Boston at the moment. And I'm showing you because we're on camera, but I will describe it to the listeners as well is what they've done with bottles now is when you open, like, a Coke bottle, for example, all other beverages are available...Coke, if you want to sponsor us [laughter], we're happy just to mention you. When you take the bottle cap off, it's now connected to the top of the bottle.
So, someone has decided...now, I understand the reason behind it. They're saying that it's for recycling. So, when you throw your bottle away, make sure the cap goes with the bottle. But someone has sat there, and they've designed the bottles. So, when you take off the cap, it's still connected to the top of the bottle. And countless times, I'm either pouring into a cup or pouring into my mouth. And that cap is getting in the way. So, the liquid kind of goes into that cap, and it spills on me, or it spills on the table. This is an absolute design failure, a catastrophe in my eyes. That's my worst design that I've come across in real life. Do you have anything you can think of that you look at, and you're like, who designed this?
SHENG-HUNG: This is such a great example because I did have similar experiences when I went to Milan Design Week last year. All the plastic bottle is, like, connected. The cap connects with the bottle. And I didn't know that it's on purpose at the very beginning. I thought, how come it's, like, connected? I want to take it out because it's easier for me to drink. And I realized it's not just this one; all of them is the same [laughs]. Yeah, that's a great example.
I think, for me, design for failure adapter, for example, you know, adapter, like dongle, right? Like, we have so many different...this guy HDMI cable, the cable for iPhone, and the magnet for my Apple MacBook Pro. That's painful because you try to find, like, when you go to, like, a talk or a speech or try to present something, I think, for me, the easiest way is, like, AirPlay, right, Wi-Fi or Bluetooth to connect to the projector. But in reality, you always need this HDMI cable. And this guy connects with my Mac. There's some problem. It depends on...now I always bring my adapter with me.
It's just like, we have that [inaudible 28:04] like, you know, it almost, like, very frequently, if we're meeting, you have to show your screen. How can we design less physical but it's user-friendly, right? People use Mac. People use Apple, use, like, Microsoft. How do you design something like a universal adaptable to everyones, just sharing screen? This is what I need. So, I think this could be one bad design, I think, at this moment [laughs].
SAMI: Yeah, that's a great example as well, and so frustrating. And I wonder if it's, like, a money-making scheme, you know, everyone has their own chargers. And that's a way kind of they make some income as well on the side. Jared, what have you seen in the world? What's your pet peeve? What really grinds your gears?
JARED: This was easy for me. It came to me straight away. Any door that has a handle that you can wrap your hand around which signifies it should be pulled that is push. It's just, I mean, what is going on there? It drives me bonkers.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs]
SAMI: That is brilliant. I think it's only fair if we flip the question, right? And then, we say, what's the best thing you've seen designed, right? There must be something out there where you've gone, "Oh, that is so useful. That makes so much sense. Why haven't we done that until now?" And have you kind of...I guess this is for Sheng-Hung, like, have you got any inspiration from that sort of thing?
SHENG-HUNG: I have to be honest. Like, I really feel like in the past, I'm kind of scared about, like, use your face to unlock your phone. But the more I use it, I feel like, oh my God, this is so convenient. You just look at it. I know it's a bit scary because they have all your biometric data information. I know even you protect under the regular law, but still, I feel like, yeah, it's so seamless connected. And I feel maybe the better answer is like, I feel a great design is, like, to reduce the friction between the transition of devices by devices, right? So, for me, I mean, so interface by interface.
So, when I share the data on my phone, what does that mean? From phone to my computer or phone to other people, right? All the different interfaces changing. The less friction, the better. I feel seamless connected. So, you know, AirDrop, super convenient, photos, videos with people, Mac users. But what does that mean for, like, Windows users, right? And so, every platform has their own, like, spec, or criteria. And I feel if the user can feel the seamless friction between these interfaces, for me, that could be a great design solution.
JARED: I love that answer. And I love that description of reducing friction. It reminds me a little bit of, I think, my favorite book on UX is by Steve Krug, which is "Don't Make Me Think." And it's just all about doing the simplest thing, reducing confusion, overcoming objections, and reducing friction. So, I really love that.
I do have an answer for this one as well. It's a little bit selfish or focused on my own life. So, I have a dog. She's a Welsh Terrier called Rosie. She's just turned one. Whenever we used to go out, you've got to take water for her if it's a hot day. I always used to take a bottle, whether you could unscrew the top or not, I'm not sure, Sami, and, like, a little bowl to put that in, or you use your hands. And, invariably, she's not going to drink all of the water, so you've got waste. You throw that out. The bag gets wet, all of that.
Someone has designed this really cool bottle where the top is actually the bowl. It's an all-in-one. And you press a button; the water goes into the bowl. She drinks. Whatever's left, you press the button again, turn it upright. And the water just flows back in into the rest of the bottle. It's such a simple thing. But, like you say, it just reduces that friction. Anytime a problem no longer exists, manual to automatic cars, fight me, I'm all for it. Well, that's a problem solved. That's less friction. That's beauty in the world.
SAMI: Yeah, I think it's amazing. When you think about these examples, it really brings out how much of an impact design has. So, you can have the best product in the world, but if you don't get that frictionless design, or you don't get that design that's going to really bring that improvement, it's going to be difficult to make that product a success.
And I think there's some, like, when I think about leaders and innovators in this kind of space, so I know you already mentioned IKEA and I think of Apple. And I don't know the answer to this, and maybe our listeners also wonder, like, how do these companies...they seem to keep getting it right. No matter what happens, they seem to set the trends, and they get their design spot-on, and they innovate in that space. How are they so successful in their design?
SHENG-HUNG: I think a recent example is like, you know, like, Apple just recently launched the Vision Pro, right? The XR, the goggles. And put the demo time 30 minutes to get in-store experiences. You're booking the demo time with them, the 30 minutes. For me, I wrote an article about it. It is less about the goggle itself. It is about the whole experiences.
The time you enter the store, right, and then you're waiting there, who guiding you? The Genius Bar people guiding you. You sit down. You have the prescription and your glasses that get measured, scan the QR code, and find the match [inaudible 33:35] pair of goggles that fit your [inaudible 33:37] of your face. And they put it on. They sit on the side, use the iPad to guiding you, and tell personal experiences or stories.
These companies are very design-driven, vision-driven company. They really think about the whole experiences of users, right? And, for me, it's too pricey, for me, the product, obviously, right now. But I have very delightful, positive experiences because of that 30-minute demo. So, I kind of plant the seeds in my heart. Oh, if the second generation or something have discount, I would definitely want to get one for myself. Not really because...it's a great design for sure, but also, the impression I have.
And I feel that really, really, like, make a difference, right? It's tiny. It's very subtle. They can, "No, we don't have, like, demo experiences." They can just purely sell the product. But I think they sell something bigger than just product. Branding user experiences, delightful experiences. And I can really feel that, and that's really powerful in the end.
JARED: Do you think that that sort of level of design is limited to the companies that can afford it like the big names? Like, obviously, there is a cost dedicated to having the time and to putting the resources to that. Is it always just going to be the big players, or are there things we can do to democratize that availability for the startups, for the SMEs?
SHENG-HUNG: I actually think it's about a company's culture. So, another example I would love to share is, like, when we did, like, an inspiration trip in Tokyo, and there's a very famous, like, chain bookstore called Tsutaya bookstore or Tsutaya electrics. So, to my surprise, like, yeah, it's a big bookstore, and we probably think bookstore selling books. No, they're actually selling a lifestyle.
So, for example, like, if I want to buy the book around how to use a camera, right, the way they curate it, it's like, yeah, we do have the books around camera, but also, we'll put the real camera, like, near the book. So, they curate the whole experiences. You flip the book. Oh, this is so cool. Thanks, I want to try it. You probably, in the end, you got both. So, very interesting and also very human-centered, like, retail experiences.
Why did I say culture? Because when I entered the store, I asked for one book I was looking for. The staff came to me, and she bring two books to me. One is the book I want, unpack. And one is the book...it's the same book, but without the plastic cover. It's brand new. And why she brought two books to me because if I want to buy this book, I not only read inside, but also, I can just get the new one with me to check out. And this is so subtle, right? Because they're not just bringing you, like, the sample. They also bring the final product with you.
So, I feel that kind of culture is, like, very strong, customer-centered, think about your needs, think about your next step. So, they kind of plan ahead, and this is so strong message to me. Oh my God, this is such a great design culture, or at least a human-centered culture to think about my needs, my decision-making process. So, I feel connected with that, and I feel like, yes, they have money, but also, like, they really cultivate that culture within the...not just...they also send a message to their customers.
SAMI: I feel like, Sheng-Hung, we could speak to you for hours. I mean, you are opening my world and my eyes to a different world of design. I've got one final question for you before we wrap up that I wanted to cover. I've seen from your website, like, you've personally designed products. So, out of all the products you've either designed yourself or you've been involved with, what would you say, and could you describe for us your favorite product that you've designed yourself?
SHENG-HUNG: I think my favorite product is, like, I help and re-design, like, Shanghai Library Innovation Space that, for me, is OMG. Oh my God. It's crazy. Like, one single team, my side project and collaborate with the full staff, librarian, the leadership team. What is powerful is, like, library for them in Shanghai, it's a local hub to connect the community and also to teach, to learn for the younger generation how to use the space. For sure, most people use that space for, like, self-studying, you know, activity and all this stuff. But, for me, like, it's so impactful because every single change that means a lot of impact because it's a public space.
And also, it's really, really powerful. Like, you think about the decision-making process. You have to think about feasibility, viability, and also desirability, all things to connect together. And it's really hard, not easy process. It took me about a year-long project. And I'm really happy because, in the end, it's really from sketches, concept, prototyping models, all the way they rebuild, modify the design, integrated. And now the new library they build on another area of Shanghai is really based on this model and framework. I'm very happy, and I also feel like, yeah, design can make a positive impact. It's not like a concept. It's real. And it's nice. It's painful, but it's really satisfying, yeah [laughs].
SAMI: That's really cool when you get to a point where you've done something, and then you see people using what you've designed and, like, enjoying that space and benefiting from all that hard work that you've put into. I have to thank you so much for joining us and giving us time today on the Giant Robots On Tour Series of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast. Our listeners don't know, but you've had about two hours of sleep.
SHENG-HUNG: [laughs] Yeah.
SAMI: So, it's probably time for you to get back into bed yourself. But that is your dedication to us. It's been an incredible episode and an incredible chat. I finally understand why Jared does not like doors. I myself, you will understand if you see me in the street and I'm tearing a bottle cap off of a bottle, you'll understand why. And we need to sort Sheng-Hung out with more adapters with just a single charger for all his devices. If people want to get a hold of you, Sheng-Hung, where's the best place they can reach out after listening to this podcast?
SHENG-HUNG: Yeah, definitely, you can reach out through my personal website portfolio. Yeah, shenghunglee.com. And I'm happy to respond and discuss about design-related topic. Thanks for having me on this podcast. It's very exciting, and hope we can create all the great stuff for our society.
SAMI: Pleasure. There's always a challenge I give to my listeners at the end, and it normally is just please hit that subscribe button. Jared has promised me that he will do a shoey if we can double our subscribers by the end of the series. If you don't know what a shoey is, my only advice to you is do not Google it because you do not want to know.
You can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected].
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
Thanks for listening. See ya.
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In this episode of the "Giant Robots On Tour" podcast, hosts Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin interview Dan Clark, the Founder and CEO of MindJam, an innovative platform providing emotional and SEN (Special Educational Needs) support for young people through gaming, game design, and digital skills. Sami shares a personal story about how his mother, an educational psychologist, introduced him to MindJam, highlighting its impact and relevance. Dan explains that MindJam was born out of the need to support young people who feel out of place in traditional educational settings, particularly those with ADHD, autism, and other neurodivergent conditions. By leveraging popular games like Minecraft, MindJam builds trust and engages young people in a medium they enjoy, transforming therapeutic support into a more effective and engaging process.Dan discusses the inception and growth of MindJam, which started during the pandemic when traditional in-person support became impossible. This shift to online sessions via gaming platforms provided a new avenue to connect with young people, enabling them to open up and build trust in a familiar and enjoyable environment. Dan emphasizes that gaming offers numerous benefits, such as enhancing cognitive abilities, fostering social connections, and providing a safe space for expression. Despite the negative stigma around gaming, he points out that it can be a powerful tool for personal development and emotional support. MindJam has grown significantly, now with 110 mentors supporting over 2,000 young people globally, showcasing the scalability and effectiveness of this approach.The conversation also touches on the broader implications and challenges of integrating gaming into therapeutic and educational contexts. Dan highlights the need for societal perception shifts to recognize the positive aspects of gaming, counteracting the negative media portrayal. He underscores the importance of educating parents, educators, and social services about the benefits of gaming and how it can be used constructively. Dan shares inspiring success stories from MindJam, illustrating how gaming can lead to real-world achievements and personal growth.MindJam (https://mindjam.org.uk/)Follw MindJam on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MindJamOfficial), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindjam/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/mindjamofficial/).Follow Dan Clark on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-clark-58533220b/).Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).Transcript: SAMI: Right, we are back again. And this is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host Sami Birnbaum.RÉMY: And I'm your other host, Rémy Hannequin. SAMI: Let's get into it, Rémy. Joining us today is Dan Clark, the Founder and CEO of MindJam, a platform that provides online one-to-one sessions, providing emotional and SEN support for young people through gaming, game design, and digital skills. Dan, full disclosure on this one: so, about a month ago, right? I get an email from my mom. Now [laughs], this email says, "You've got to check this guy out. Go and take a look at MindJam." And I'm thinking, mom, I don't get these emails from you. This is not the normal sort of thing I'd get from my mom on your average weekday. And I know in the past, like, I've told her that I'm kind of doing this podcast thing, and I'm starting to regret, like, telling her this. Like, what is she throwing my way? But I get into some research...and maybe for some context, actually, which is helpful because my mom isn't just doing research for the podcast, my mom's an educational psychologist. So, she's been doing that ever since I can remember. I remember growing up as a kid, and that was, I mean, she assessed me numerous times. And she works, I guess, similar kind of to the children or people that you're working with, people with ADHD, autism, neurodivergent children, just often who are struggling in school and trying to find where they fit. And I start doing my research. I look into it, hit the website, hit your LinkedIn. And I'll be, like, totally honest with you: We were both just blown away by what you are doing. And this is coming not only from me, and I work in the tech industry, and I've got a history of slight gaming addictions, which we might touch on, but also coming from my mom who works on the other side and works with all the local authorities. She does the kind of tribunals that they have to do to try and get people into the right schools and kids into the right schools. And, literally, we were blown away, and I nearly got lost as well on your website. I found some kind of gaming streams that you do, and I feel almost like we missed a trick here, Rémy, because we could have done this podcast on Minecraft. It's such a nice flow, right, when you're streaming. DAN: Yeah, it makes it easier when you've got that distraction there as well. You can just chat about it. Thank you so much for inviting me on. It's a pleasure being here and, yeah, I'm glad you kind of understand what we're doing here. MindJam itself is four years old now. But I was doing things before in the pandemic, similar. But once the pandemic hit, that was the key moment where everything went online for my support with young people. And, suddenly, the light bulb came on, and I was like, this is a way in.You know, there are so many young people that are struggling, lost, feel they're stupid, and don't fit in. Yet, actually, they're amazing. But, you know, a standard way of sitting in front of them going, "Tell me why you can't go to school. Why can't you do this?" you know, it doesn't work. They don't trust that person. They've got trauma. They've been, you know, battered down by education and by health services. And so, to suddenly have someone who comes in and goes, "Oh, so you love Minecraft. Oh, I love Minecraft, too. Let's join in. Let's go in a world." And then, you can build that trust to then go, "How's your week been then?" Or, you know, and start talking, and you're just on the same wavelength. And, for me, it was something as soon as I sort of realized, it was like, this is...of course, this makes perfect sense. And then, I looked and saw nobody else is doing it [laughs]. So, I started off MindJam just on my own. At first, very quickly, we got working with lots of...in the UK, we have local authorities, which is the councils around, so seeing there is a real, you know, thing that they would work with us. So, that was great, to be recognized as actually a real service, rather than just someone playing games with kids. It's like, no, this is real. This really works. And then, it quickly got bigger than me, and now we are at 110 mentors working for us, and we're supporting over 2,000 young people all over the world. SAMI: That's incredible. DAN: It's a mission of mine, you know, we'll go more into my sort of history, but I've got two neurodivergent children: both autistic, one's ADHD as well. When you see something that you think is going to work for your child, to then suddenly see it's got, like, a two-year waiting list, which most have, it's heartbreaking, and you know it's going to be too late. So, it's always been my mission with MindJam to keep that waiting list as small as I can, but also, obviously, expanding with quality mentors and all that. So, you know, we generally tend to always say about three months before we can sort of get that support for young people. But yeah, it's something very close to my heart that I'm so passionate about and, yeah, it's been a great journey so far. SAMI: You can tell. It's so interesting because, like you say, when you find something that works for your kids. Because when I was younger, I struggled with separation anxiety a lot in school. So, I would have days when I would really struggle to go to school. During my high school period, I went to the Royal Free, which is down in Hampstead, so not too far from where I grew up and not too far from my school. And my parents...I tried to engage with a therapist. But it's almost like, I don't know if I wasn't cognitively or intellectually developed enough to engage in that way, but it didn't work. Ultimately, I did kind of one or two sessions. I remember filling in some questionnaire and thinking, like, I don't get this. This doesn't make sense. And what you're talking about, if I understand correctly, is you're coming to where the child is at. You're coming to a safe space for them, a place where they feel comfortable. It's almost like a world which is predictable. Whereas the outside world is very scary, right? Especially for people who have generalized anxiety disorder, like I said, autism. It's very challenging. And so, you come to their level, and you say, "Right, let's find a place where we all feel comfortable." And then, we can start to engage. And you say, like, you know, the pandemic was a little bit of a light bulb moment. What's been the biggest barrier then? So, you've found yourself kind of going into this and saying, right, this is something which works. It works for my kids. I want to make this available, accessible. What's been your biggest barrier to getting this off the ground and getting it working? DAN: It's the negative thoughts and the way the media portrays and education portrays gaming, basically. That has been the hardest thing is most parents are on board, but they still feel a little bit ashamed of how social media is on gaming and screen time. And they're very worried that they're not doing the right thing. And we come in a way of also educating. We educate the educators. We do training plans for schools, and for social services, and all sorts because there are so many benefits to gaming that aren't recognized. And, you know, gaming is still generally quite new. It's evolved so much in the last even 10 years. It's insane the way the characters have evolved. And the emotional nature of games now is really complex and, you know, young people and older people can get so much from them. But gaming still, in general, people are still like, "Well, get off that. Do something actually worthwhile." It's like, it's so worthwhile. There's so much, you know, strategy game you've got so much from it. And a fast-paced shooting you've got cognitive abilities. The perfect example I've got is, did you hear a couple of months ago a young lad, I think he was 13, he beat Tetris. SAMI: Yes.DAN: He completed Tetris, which is incredible, you know, it's like, oh, wow. And the first thing the newsreader said to them, the media person interviewing him went, "You should get out more." That's the way she portrayed it, rather than going, "What an achievement it is. You should get outside more." I'm literally like, what? What's going on? You know, again, this kid, you know, he's in the Guinness World of Records. What an achievement. He's famous around the world for doing it. It's like, why is that not seen as such a good thing? You know, so yeah, so that was the hard thing was especially schools, you know, they're very frightened of gaming and of change. And so, trying to help them see that, actually, if you meet a young person where they're at in something they love, then you can help inspire them and help find out why they can't deal with the things, why they can't engage with school, and also inspire them for future learning careers. Even healthy gaming comes from having that understanding of how they're gaming.So, if someone's sat up all night gaming, yeah, we all know it's not great for them. But if you just say, "Gaming's evil. Get off it. You're wasting your time. I'm turning that off," they're going to want to rebel against that. Yet if you come in and go, "Oh, wow, I can see why you were sat up all night doing that. But have you noticed that you're not as good at playing when you're really tired or really hungry?" And if you look at the top e-sports players, they're athletes. They exercise; they eat well; they sleep well. So, you know, if you embrace gaming a bit more, you can get that trust and that bond to then help inspire in other ways. RÉMY: I mean, I could talk about it for a long time. It's really refreshing to hear someone talk about video games in such a positive way and talking about the benefits. And you even mentioned strong players like athletes. It's really refreshing. And I'm wondering, how did this knowledge come up to you in the first place? So, I bet you might be someone enjoying playing games yourself. But how did you see all these benefits yourself? Because, unfortunately, it's not something we talk a lot about. As you mentioned, in the press, we hear about all the negativity. Every time there is a strong event, we blame video games, all that. And we forgot all the stories where the video games enhance people, if they have trouble or not. It can be very beneficial to a lot of people. So, how did you see this value yourself? DAN: Yeah, well, yeah, I've always been a gamer, you know, ever since Spectrum 48K, I think you had. I'm showing my age now, but it was mainly when the Sega Megadrive, and from then, PlayStation onwards were my days. And me and my brother used to have great times together on that as well. You know, it was our bonding. But then I think the biggest light bulb to me...before the pandemic, I was a teacher. And I used to teach music and ICT and computers as well, and having my children as well, and both in school connecting with the young people.Because I was a gamer, I could talk about the games that they're playing with them and to see their eyes light up...and you're on a different wavelength with that young person. They suddenly got this trust in you, and they want to tell you all about what they've done on Minecraft, or what the new season of Fortnite's about. And it was having such a beneficial effect on them and same with my family as well. We, you know, both my children are autistic, and we've got, you know, we have a lot of difficulties around that of bonding together as a family, yet our closest moments have been through gaming together. So, Mario 3D World was the first one I remember with my children playing, and we could play at all levels. So, my son was about four and, you know, he was often in a bubble, killed, and floating back onto the screen again. But, you know, we had a great time. And I was suddenly, like, looking, thinking, this is amazing. You know, nobody hears about this side of it that it's bringing us together. And so, from there, I then started doing after-school gaming clubs, so not coding clubs, nothing like that. It was gaming. And the young people they loved it. It was oversubscribed. Masses of kids came to it. We had all sorts of things from Super Smash Bros, if you know that, to, you know, to PlayStation games, Go Simulator, and everything playing. And we just had a whale of a time, and they could really relax and make friends. And, again, it was all coming from the joy of gaming together, basically. And it's, you know, as much as some people might not like it, it's bigger and bigger. It's the biggest entertainment industry now. And, you know, on the other side of it, there are so many careers in it. If your young person has an interest in gaming, see what they're interested, help it, champion it because it's, yeah, you know, there's such a future there. But yeah, that's my story, basically, and where that sort of light bulb came from. And then, I've done a lot of research into the benefits of gaming and how you can use that for connecting with young people. And, you know, so many games now have characters with, you know, emotional things going off, or, you know, you can talk about feelings even in games like Minecraft where the characters don't talk. But you can be like, how must that person be feeling there? And, you know, you can really bring in real-life situations while gaming and also have a lot of fun, which I think is super important as well, which sometimes gets forgotten about. But, you know, real life is really enhanced by having loads of fun, and gaming's fun.SAMI: Yeah. It's so fascinating. As you're speaking, I'm having this internal dilemma, right? Because, in my head, everything you're saying is true and makes sense. And I believe it, and I've seen it. And then, I probably still harbor those feelings that are almost entrenched, like you're saying, in the media with, you know, the person who completed Tetris. And those sorts of feelings are still, like, a little bit entrenched to me in terms of the negative sides of gaming. Like, I guess I grew up probably similar to you, where it was like, "Well, why aren't you outside more?" and the negative aspect of it. I spoke about this in a different podcast, which I've apologized to my parents for mentioning in public. But when I was in university, it's too late now, I also kind of developed, I would call it probably, like, a small gaming addiction. I don't know where it would sit, but I was doing all-nighters Playing Call of Duty, Modern Warfare. And so, there definitely is a negative side. But I like what you say about, well, actually, you can address that in a healthy way. But then, this week, just this week, which is quite uncanny, my seven-year-old comes, and he says, "Daddy, I really want to get an Xbox, you know, my friend's got one." And he's just starting to get to that cusp of gaming. So, in my head, I say, yeah, like that makes total sense, and I imagine the benefits and the fun time me and him could have on an Xbox. But I still struggle with those feelings of...maybe they're my own worries of, well, but what if he neglects his other stuff? What if he goes into like, yeah, with ADHD, he goes into hyperfocus, and that's all he does? How [laughs] can you counsel me out of this concern? DAN: Well, no, I completely understand, and that is where all our fears come from, especially our generation and how it's put through. But I think young people more and more connect through gaming, whereas I think when we were gamers as young, a lot of stuff wasn't online. So, we weren't playing with our friends. We were playing on our own a lot of the time, whereas it's very social now. Platforms like Roblox and Minecraft are the things that are super social, working together as a team, things like that.But also screen time, I can show you that we've got a whole list of benefits of gaming, actually, that I'll share with you because there's studies that even screen time has been proven not to be detrimental the way we're told it is. And I think we must know that through how we work. Most of us work on screens these days, so.SAMI: Yeah, that's such a point of contention in the house because we currently do only on Fridays. So, they get, like, two hours of screen time. I don't know if that's strict. I don't know where I am on that. Do you have, like, with your own kids, or how do you handle that discipline? So, let's say I get the console, right? I bring it into the house to my seven-year-old. Do I limit it with screen time? How would you approach that sort of thing? DAN: Obviously, with a seven-year-old, it's a little bit different from...mine are now 17 and 14. So, we discuss it more, but yeah, definitely, you know, have boundaries. And also, if you're worried about how they're gaming, maybe have the Xbox in the living room, so instead of gaming in their bedroom, they're gaming when you're around, and it's a shared family activity. And then, it's easier to say, "Well, we're going to be having food in a minute. So, finish up on that game." And you can have all that understanding.But I think also, you know, that other side of things of coming from seeing what they're playing. I talk to parents a lot about this, and they get, you know, they see frustrations in their young people when they're trying to get them off. But they don't realize that maybe they're playing something like Fortnite or something that's a bit more online team-based, where if they pulled them off the game in the middle of the match, it could be detrimental to the team they're working with, their rankings. You know, they could even get banned from the game for a few days, you know.So, understanding and them being able to work time management together, being like, "Well, after this game is finished, this is where we're going, you know, we've got to go out. We've got to do this," you know, there is a give and take there. And I'm not saying there isn't negatives to gaming. We need, you know, everybody needs a break as well. But, again, through the understanding of what they're playing, you can have those conversations. If you're not playing them or watching them and don't understand what the game is about, and what the joy is about, there's going to be a gap between you, you know, where the young person is going to be like, "You don't understand me. You don't understand why I want to play this." My kids, you know, we went from the other [inaudible 17:37] because they've had severe problems at school, both of them, through their neurodivergency, and gaming has really helped them both to regulate. And maybe when you're saying about yourself when you had problems, and maybe there was something else going on. And then, the gaming was a way for you to cope, that safe space to go to that was actually working in a way as a little bit of therapy and keeping you grounded, you know, as well. So, you know, there's two sides to see it. But yeah, definitely, I can understand the worries of staying up all night playing it or not doing your homework and playing it, although I have different things to say about homework. But to say it's not actually beneficial is wrong because, you know, you just got to look at something like Minecraft and the amount a young person can learn, everything from biomes, and blocks, and diamonds, or ores to actual mathematics and things. And it naturally leads onto PCs and learning how to code things and who knows where that's going to lead, to creating something completely new. So, I worry for the ones that are heavily restricted on screen time. I worry that they're being held a little bit back. You know, that might sound a bit controversial for some people. But when most jobs are digital and you're not allowed to learn, I mean, the young people I see they're so gifted at such a young age in understanding digital things that they're going to be at the forefront of the new technology. So, it's almost like, yeah, I think it should be embraced with both hands. RÉMY: There's an incredible opportunity to learn new things through video games and to be happy and to share, like you said. And I bet our audience is already quite open to video games, but we never know it. I think it could be interesting if you could provide, like, a very simple, not comprehensive list of famous games and the kind of skills and benefits they provide you. You mentioned Minecraft; you mentioned creativity. But what kind of games and skills benefits you? You could say for our audience to understand more about the opportunity that is out there. DAN: Yeah, I mean, there are so many. But yeah, so, if we look at your normal shooter game like Call of Duty, and Fortnite, and things like that, that is for cognitive ability. You know, getting those dexterity in your hands and learning those [inaudible 20:11] of pressing buttons is more than you think. It's really training that brain and getting that brain working really quick. It's proven to boost your brain power, your gray matter. It's actually proven that gaming, in general, just boosts your gray matter.I mean, we all know about doing brain training games, but all games using that brain, you know, it's much more advanced than sitting watching TV. But then if you go into more things like puzzle games, so things from your Tetris all the way through to more advanced ones like Portal or strategy games like Civilization and things, there is so much you're doing. You're boosting that brainpower, and you're thinking all the time. But then you can get into...yeah, back onto the shooter games as well, they help with spatial recognition. So, it's actually helping to spot things from a distance: dangers or things to collect. You can see them, and it actually enhances eyesight. It is proven to enhance eyesight, which is great. Decision-making and leadership skills, which is a key thing people talk about for business, is all there when you're in your team of shooters. You're playing Overwatch or you're playing, you know, any game like that. You know, there's always somebody leading or, you know, saying what should be best, seeing the best strategies in there.Problem-solving comes into all sorts so, obviously, in shooters and things again, I'd- say, but also your Minecraft. You know, you've got to create a certain thing to defeat the dragon or whatever you're doing. There's always something, or if you're building something. But then, of course, your high-end puzzle games and even things like Mario. I mean, they get so complex in the problem-solving to overcome a level. Again, the brain power, and the brain power seeing these young people that they're way more advanced than we were playing games. The games are so intricate and so hard now. One you never hear about is social skills until...I think the pandemic helped that a bit. People started to see, oh, Animal Crossing, it's a great way to connect with people. And, you know, and Roblox as much as it gets a lot of bad press, for young people to connect and play, and lot of it is almost like playground role playing play, and they're playing together. You know, there's games just based in Ikea, and they're shopping, and [laughs] things like that. It's really good for them to be doing that. And health and fitness surprisingly, of course, is in gaming. So, obviously, a lot of Nintendo Switch games are sort of standing up, you know, playing switch sports and things, but then virtual reality is huge for that. And if you've ever tried Beat Saber, that's a real workout, which is really good. But there's loads of boxing ones. There's one that kids play now called Gorilla Tag, where, oh my God, that is such a workout. I have mentees that I work with, and then we'll be like, "Oh, Gorilla Tag," an hour of that, I am exhausted. Because you're just flinging your arms around like a gorilla trying to move fast. It's amazing. SAMI: I saw a post you did recently about there's, like, a Greek mythology level on Fortnite, like, an educational aspect [laughs]. It's so funny because I remember playing God of War on the PS2, and I learned so much about Greek mythology. Everything I know comes from God of War. And so, there's also that educational aspect.DAN: Yeah, exactly. You get this deep dive into something, and you really find what you're interested in. So, I've got a kid, and he loves this game called War Thunder, which is all about planes, World War planes, and he can tell me everything about every plane and what country it's made. He can spot it a mile off. You know, "Oh, that's a Russian plane from so and so. Its weak points are here. It was built by so and so." And it's like, you're a genius, and it's all come from, you know, this game's sparked this real interest.And, you know, like I said, Fortnite brings it in, God of War, of course. Assassin's Creed is amazing for things like that, history, it goes from Egypt times. And they even now have walkthroughs in the game where...this needs to be used in schools. I don't know if schools embrace it yet, but you don't have any of this story and the killings and stuff. You just are going through history and walking through the towns and things like that, which is brilliant. The latest one for Assassin's Creed was Vikings, wasn't it? And that was brilliant because that brought in the UK and how it was when the Vikings came over. There's so much stuff. I've got a young person, and he loves this game called For Honor, which is all about medieval sword fights. And he got such an interest in weapons that he's then become a blacksmith. He's enrolled onto a college course apprenticeship being a blacksmith. He wants to be making armory and swords for movies. You know, he said like, "Look, Lord of the Rings, that's all made properly, isn't it?" I mean, that's [inaudible 24:50] SAMI: Wow.DAN: Yeah, it's amazing. One other thing that the games bring, which I think is amazing, is mindfulness as well. There's a huge thing of that. Yeah, like I said, going back to maybe yourself when you were gaming at night, and you maybe needed to destress and maybe take your mind off something, you can get into a game and almost...there's a thing called the grind in the game. Minecraft has it a lot, where you've just got to get yourself a hundred diamonds, or whatever [laughs]. So, it's like, you can almost turn your brain off and just do that, you know, and it can be so super relaxing. And you can get into this thing called flow state. A lot of driving games are like that. If you hit every corner perfectly, you're kind of just in this dream-like state where you just...everything's going well. And that brings a euphoria, too. There's so many good things.But now there's loads of games that are actually based around mindfulness. Tetris is one that's been proven for that. But I don't know if you've heard a more recent one called PowerWash Simulator. Now, this game was one of my most favorite for the last couple of years. All you're doing is washing stuff with a power washer. But the way it works, it gives you a little ding when you've cleaned something properly, like a [vocalization]. And it just...you stand back and look at your job. Honestly, it's amazing. But now Oxford University are doing a full study on it because they realize how beneficial it is to relaxing and chilling out, you know, and just making yourself just feeling happy when you need to just de-stress. It's amazing. RÉMY: I can totally relate. I remember a few years ago, I played GTA 5, and GTA 5 is the kind of game famous for arbitrary violence or all this kind of stuff we hear in the media. But I remember me playing and sometimes I wanted to play just to take a bike and to go on the road and to see a sunset. And, of course, we could argue that I can see the sunset out there, but, in a game, it's just a piece of art. At work, recently, we just had a conversation about beautiful games. So, we weren't interested in all the features or how the game would work but just how beautiful it is. And sometimes we just play video games because they're beautiful. And so, they could provide so much on the intellectual level, on the skills, but also, just as piece of art, just beautiful things made by beautiful artists. DAN: Yeah, it is amazing when you see that. And yeah, I get that completely with GTA. It gets a lot of bad reputation, you know, and story-wise, it is very adult. But, you know, it's the biggest game in the world for a reason. And, you know, like you said, you climb the mountain, you look at the view, you know, it is such a lovely thing to do.There was a game, Red Dead Redemption. I had a young lady I was mentoring, and she was situationally mute, which means, you know, she couldn't talk to anybody. She used to type her responses to me. But she loved Red Dead Redemption, loved horses. And she actually created a group from all around the world, where they would all meet her on a Friday in the game, and she would take them on horse trails. And so, this is all in the game, and she would just take them around to beautiful spots, do nice little jumps with the horses, setting up camp, you know, and, I mean, that's [inaudible 28:08]. It's amazing. And yeah, she ended up making a horse game on Roblox, and that doing really well, and her actually working for Roblox themselves. So, yeah, you know, it all inspires them to work on that. And, I think, sorry, I'm going on tangents here, but also, as you say, appreciating art. There are so many different sides to gaming. A lot of people used to think gaming is just coding, and I don't want to be a coder. That's confusing. I don't want to do that. If you look at the credits that roll on a main game, and they go on for, like, about an hour. There are so many different jobs from artists, storyboard writers, level designers, musicians. There's everything there. The coders are just one part of it. So, as I said before, there are so many career opportunities there, either starting up your own business as a self-employed person or getting involved in it. One I love...a lot of the neurodivergent people I work with [inaudible 29:07] is being a games tester. Because the first thing my son ever does is, if he gets a game, he tries to break it. He tries to find where he can walk through a wall, or something like that. So, it's like that job would be ideal for you. It's like, it's amazing. And that's a job. That's a really important job as well. SAMI: Yeah. When you talk about these stories, they are inspirational. Like, I feel like almost, like, a flutter in my heart as you talk about this kid who maybe felt he has kind of no hope or very little opportunities to actually honing in on this Viking game and then being able to go and become a blacksmith, or this other person you mentioned who's now with Roblox. Yeah, I almost wish, like, they had more publicity around them. And maybe we're kind of doing some of that work now. What would you say is your biggest success story? DAN: I guess MindJam in itself I think is just, I mean, it's way bigger than me now. Obviously, it was born from this idea of giving young people the time and the respect. They are doing something that they love to do and is beneficial. That's what I found was everybody...even when I was teaching, we used to have this connection with the kids, and I used to work one-to-one with the, you know, special education needs, young ones. And a great connection talking about gaming, and their eyes would light up. They would talk about their week, and how they were feeling, and what they achieved.But then it would always be, in the back of my mind, we need to get back onto what we're supposed to be doing and, you know, I need to tick these boxes. And there's always something wanted from them. And it's the same if they go and see a health service. There's always something that they want from that young person. Yet if you just approach them and say, "You know, let's do what you want to do." It's child-led. It's low demand, and let's see where that takes us. That's where we got to discovering about the blacksmith thing. And that's why we've got young people making albums and things with MindJam. You know, it goes anywhere. I've got one young person who shows me Tai Chi, you know, that's our MindJam session. It started off from Rocket League. So, it can really go anywhere. But yeah, sorry, going back to the big success, it is every day now I get a message saying how one of my mentors has helped a young person to help the whole family. That is just the best thing in the world. You know, this is something we've created, and we work hard. We work really hard to make sure we've got the best people. You know, and we're well-trained, and informed, and everything. To hear that it's really making such a difference, and, you know, some people say we're saving lives, and, you know, I just have to pinch myself. Me and my wife we were just like, we can't believe it really how amazing it is. But we're just on a mission now to make sure it's accessible for as many people who need it. SAMI: Yeah, I've seen some of the reviews on your website, and they're heartwarming. But, like, it kind of makes sense, right? Like, for some people, this is the only place that they feel safe. They feel comfortable. You imagine all the cortisol that's going through someone when they're in that fight or flight moment, and there's lots of stress and anxiety. And they enter into a gaming world, and they can escape. And all of a sudden, that reduces. You're dealing with a different person. You're dealing with someone who feels happy, who feels content. And then, you're opening up their mind to have other conversations, you know, like you say. I really recommend it to our listeners. Go and check out the stream. You do kind of...I've seen you've done a few episodes of streaming with other mentors. And it's fascinating to see how all of you, whilst you're playing, are in a conversation about, "Oh, how was your week? And how's that been going?" And, you know, something happened over there. And it's like, you're just in a more of a relaxed state to have those conversations. DAN: Yeah, you know, it's been used before, you know, LEGO therapy is kind of like that. You know, that's what MindJam is in a way is play therapy, but there's so much more you can do with the digital platform. And we're at an amazing age as well, where most bits of software are free. I'll click on like, you know, if they want to look into 3D modeling, it's easy to get a copy of Blender. If you want to get into Unity or Unreal Engine, I mean, there's always into...and it's all, you know, what a wonderful time. When we were younger, if I wanted to get into game design, it was so complicated. You didn't know where to start where, you know, so yeah, it's really amazing.And another thing that I love as well is the mentors that work for us. Most of them are really [inaudible 33:28]. I struggled when I was in my early twenties, and I remember seeing a counselor. And it felt like they had no idea what they were...yeah, they're reading from a textbook, you know, and I remember just really patronizing me. And I was just like, you've got no clue. Whereas I think all the mentors we have all said, "I wish MindJam was around when I was a young person." And I thought, that's the key thing for me, their empathy, their understanding. We don't have to solve it straight away. It's just being there and going, "Yeah, that is hard. Yeah, you know, you'll be okay though. And there's, you know, you're not on your own here." And, you know, I think that is...so many people seem to have to try and heal people straight away. And it's like, no, people just need time to talk, and it's the same as adults as well. Yeah, it could just carry on really to all ages really, couldn't it? SAMI: Yeah. And you've also got that buy-in, right? Whereas, you know, I think of myself perhaps going to therapy at that young age. I didn't really buy into it because I was sitting there with an adult who I didn't really know what we were doing. And I was just kind of there for a conversation. And here you've got...you're doing something that they like, and they enjoy. To put my parent and adult hat back on [laughs] because it's something I want to pick your brains on, right? So, working in the tech industry and working in coding, I've read articles about games, which kind of it says that they're more and more...you see it maybe more on the games on the mobile phone. So, they're employing, like, these kind of gambling tactics, so a lot of the stuff where it's treasure chests. And what is it? On Fortnite, it's the packs. On FIFA, it's also, like, you open up the pack and you see what players you get. So, that sort of stuff I also find scary where I feel like you have from the industry...so, whilst you're using the industry in this way, is the industry itself there to promote and perpetuate the benefits that come from games? Or are they looking, I want to get people in; I want to get them hooked; I want to use these gambling techniques, A/B testing, whatever it is? DAN: From all big companies, we get both sides, obviously. So, you got your unscrupulous ones that, oh, go for it. You loot boxes. But I think more and more, especially with young people, they're more and more aware. They're far more savvy than we are in these things. And the good one is EA with, you know, FIFA. They get review bombed because as soon as someone's putting in loot boxes and things, people are just like, you're just after our money. This is a con. It's pay to win. Mobile games are the worst for it, of course. You know, they're quick cash-making things. Again, instead of, like, saying, "All gaming is evil. We should never do it," it's being aware and being aware of what these games are trying to do, which, again, when you're looking at a young child, is having shared gaming experiences. So, you can go, "Ah, can you see what they're doing here? You know, they've hooked us in. We've played this for two minutes, and we've had free play. And now they're asking us to pay five pounds for extra things. That's a bit of a con, isn't it?" And, you know, you can actually bring that awareness, and then they're not going to fall for things like that.But at the other side of it, I see firsthand...I've luckily enough to work closely with Sony. One of their great companies is called Media Molecule. I don't know if you've heard of them. They did LittleBigPlanet, and lately, they had a game called Dreams, which is actually making games on a PlayStation, which is really cool. But they're so accessible. It's all about, you know, making everybody happy, giving people the keys to creativity, and really help making everything accessible.Again, they worked with this wonderful, wonderful artist who created characters, character designs. They'd never met her. She was so socially anxious. She never could leave her house but was actually one of their top artists that they would send the work, send the brief. She'd send this amazing art back, and then they'd pay her. They didn't have to come into the office nine till five for no reason whatsoever. And there's a lovely side, and, of course, there's a business unscrupulous side. And yeah, again, bring that education of that. This is what I think should be in schools. Instead of avoiding the whole issue, is actually talk about being toxic gamers and what that means, and how to deal with toxic gamers, and how not to be a toxic gamer yourself. For those that don't know toxic gamers, it's just people that are really, really mean to everybody, which seems to be a set thing that people do, especially to a new player. It's like, learn how to encourage people in. And there's now games coming out where they ban people straight away if they're being toxic, and it's all about helping that new player feel like part of the team.But again, yeah, let's say if this was actually brought into education, so then we learn about loot boxes and, you know, pay-to-win type games, then young people would be on that same wavelength. They would get it, either that or it would make gaming so lame that no one would play gaming anymore because it's in schools [laughs]. Like, oh, it sucks now [laughs]. SAMI: Yeah, I think that that way that you embrace kind of what gaming is and you say, well, actually, we can see that it's got a benefit. We can see that it's positive. How do we get the absolute most out of this? How can we not hide, stick our heads in the sand to the issues that might be there? And how can we then say, "Let's use this?" And I think, I mean, my mom will be listening to this podcast for sure. But I think it's something which it's quite disruptive what you're doing. I really do feel that way kind of dabbling in gaming, working as a consultant in the coding industry. I actually teach neurodivergent kids as well on the side. And I'm actually mentoring another kid in coding as well. And what you're doing, as I said at the beginning, it's mind-blowing, and we could talk to you for hours.We have a little chat on this podcast, which listeners can't see. And I asked Rémy, like, "Do you have any questions before you want to wrap up?" And Rémy was just like, "I just want to keep listening. I'm loving it." And I'm exactly...I feel like we can listen to...I think me and Rémy game and we dabble here and there as well ourselves. So, it's definitely something which speaks to us so much. But I've got to thank you so much for your time, for taking the time to jump on with us, give us such an insight into the work that you're doing with MindJam. Let's talk about the BAFTA Young Game Designers Award Ceremony Open Day. Give us some info. DAN: Oh yeah. Well, this is a lovely thing. I've luckily enough to be involved with BAFTA on this for a few years. An early success of MindJam was I was nominated as Mentor of The Year and finalist for Mentor of The Year for BAFTA in 2021. And they run this thing called Young Games Designers every year, and it's brilliant because they do...it's two sides to it. One is actually making a game, but then, of course, not all young people are ready to make a game. And, you know, so the other side is a games concept where you could just send in sketches, ideas, things like that. And that's really accessible for lots of young people we work with, of course. But yeah, in July, I don't have the date; it's early July, we have the award ceremony, which is on this Saturday. But then on the Sunday at BAFTA in London, it's an open day for families to come. You have to apply and get a ticket. I'm sure you guys can put the link on here later on. But yeah, MindJam will be there, but there's loads of game places. I think TT Games will be there who make the LEGO games. And there's all sorts of...we have D&D there. We have all sorts and talks on how to get into the industry and things like that. So, it's really a great thing to come to if you're a young person who's interested in gaming. SAMI: That's really cool. So, parents, if you're listening, save up all that screen time so you can use it. A month's worth of screen time [chuckles] at the BAFTA Awards, Young Game Designers Awards Ceremony in the Open Day in London. If people want to get hold of you, Dan, where's the best place? They've heard this. They're inspired. They feel like they've got someone who would benefit from your services. Where's the best place to get in touch? DAN: If you go to our website, it's mindjam.org.uk, and you can email us at [email protected]. And I think you said this podcast is international, isn't it? So, we do offer sessions all around the world. We have mentors in America, in Australia, in Japan, all over the place basically. MindJam is universal. So, wherever you are, get in touch. And if you're interested in being a mentor as well, get in touch as well, so...SAMI: Definitely, I highly recommend. And I've already got people I can think of that I'm going to be passing your details on to. Listeners, listeners, listeners, our lovely listeners, no one likes missing out on things. Remember that flight you missed? The train that passed you by? Your partner's birthday? I've been there, by the way; I missed one recently. It's a horrible feeling. I cannot deal with you missing out on these things, but I can make sure that this feeling doesn't come about when it comes to our podcast. So, move your thumb. Yes, you, move your thumb. Hit that subscribe button. I can guarantee you, you will never miss one of our podcasts. And you'll hear amazing guests, just like Dan, as we get them in, and we have great chats together on the Giant Robots on Tour podcast. You can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye. AD:Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.
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In the latest episode of the "Giant Robots On Tour" podcast, hosts Rémy Hannequin and Sami Birnbaum welcome Marc G. Gauthier, a solopreneur and startup coach, who shares his journey from software development to becoming the founder and developer of The Shadow Boxing App. Marc describes how his interest in software engineering began at a young age with QBasic and evolved through various leadership roles at companies like Drivy (now Getaround) and Back Market. His early passion for gaming led him to learn coding, and over time, he naturally transitioned into management roles, finding excitement in organizing and leading teams while maintaining his love for building products.
During the episode, Marc discusses the challenges and intricacies of scaling startups, emphasizing the importance of balancing speed and reliability in software development. He recounts his experiences in leadership positions, where he faced the dual task of managing rapid team growth and maintaining software efficiency. Marc also shares insights into the startup ecosystem, noting that most startups struggle to achieve success due to a combination of market timing, team dynamics, and resource management. His own venture, The Shadow Boxing App, represents his attempt to return to hands-on coding while leveraging his extensive experience in startup coaching and advising.
Marc also touches on the role of AI in the future of software development, expressing cautious optimism about its potential to augment human workflows and automate repetitive tasks. He advises current and aspiring developers to embrace AI as a tool to enhance their capabilities rather than a replacement for human ingenuity. Marc concludes by highlighting the importance of realistic expectations in the startup world and the need for continuous learning and adaptation in the ever-evolving tech landscape.
Getaround (https://getaround.com/)
Follow Getaround on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/getaround/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/getaround), X (https://twitter.com/getaround), YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/getaround), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/getaround/).
Back Market (https://www.backmarket.com/en-us)
Follow Back Market on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/back-market/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/BackMarketCom), X (https://x.com/backmarket), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/backmarket).
The Shadow Boxing App (https://shadowboxingapp.com/)
Follow Marc Gauthier on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcggauthier/).
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Transcript:
RÉMY: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Rémy Hannequin.
SAMI: And I'm your other host, Sami Birnbaum.
RÉMY: If you are wondering who we are, make sure you find the previous podcast where we introduced the Giant Robots on Tour series by throwing random icebreakers at each other. And find out that Jared likes it when someone takes the time to understand someone else's point of view.
Joining us today is Marc G Gauthier, a Solopreneur and Startup Coach.
Marc, you used to be VP of Engineering at Drivy, now known as Getaround, and also Director of Engineering at Back Market. You also have been a coach and advisor to a startup for over a decade. Currently, your current adventure is being the Founder and Developer of The Shadow Boxing App available on the Apple App Store. We always like to go back to the start with our guests. Everyone has a story, and we are interested in your journey. So, Marc, what led you into the world of software engineering in the first place?
MARC: Hello. Well, happy to be here. And, yeah, I started getting into software development quite a long time ago. I actually learned software development with QBasic when I was something like seven. And, from there, I just kept on learning, learning, and learning and got into school for it, then worked in different startups, and then moved into more leadership position management. And I'm now, like, coaching people and building my own product.
What do you want to get? Because it's broad. I've been doing it for quite a while. Like, I don't think the QBasic days are that insightful. The only thing I remember from that time is being confused by the print comment that I would expect it to print on my printer or something, but it didn't; it just printed on the screen. That's the only thing I have from back then.
SAMI: Why at seven years old? And I'm taking you back too far, but at seven years old, I was probably collecting Pokémon cards and possibly like, you know, those football stickers. I don't know if you had the Panini stickers.
MARC: Oh yeah, I was doing that as well.
SAMI: But you were doing that as well. But then what drove you at that age? What do you think it was that made you think, I want to start learning to code, or play around with the computer, or get into tech?
MARC: [laughs] Yeah. Well, I remember, back then, I really wanted a computer to play games. Like, I had a friend who had a computer. He was playing games, and I wanted to do that. So, I was asking my mom to have a computer, and she told me, "Yeah, you can have one." And she found a really old computer she bought from a neighbor, I think. But she told me like, "I don't know anything about it. So, you have to figure it out and set it up." And she just found someone to kind of help me. And this person told me to, like, take the computer apart. She taught me a bit of software development, and I kind of liked it.
And I was always trying to change the games. Back then, it was way easier. You could just edit a sound file, and you would just edit the sound file in the game, so yeah, just learning like this. It wasn't really my intent to learn programming. It just kind of happened because I wanted to play video games really.
SAMI: That's really cool. It's really interesting. Rémy, do you remember how...how did you first get...do you remember your first computer, Rémy?
RÉMY: My first computer, I think I remember, but the first one I used it was, first, a very long time ago. I discovered that it was an Apple computer way, way later when I discovered what Apple was and what computers were actually. And I just remember playing SimCity 2000 on it, and it was amazing. And we had to, you know, cancel people from making phone calls while we were on the computer because of the internet and all the way we had to connect to the internet back then.
And after that, just, I think, Windows 95 at home. Yeah, that's the only thing I can remember actually. Because I think I was lucky, so I got one quite early. And I don't really remember not having one, so I was quite lucky with that. And so, I was always kind of in the computer game without being too much [inaudible 05:02] [laughs].
SAMI: Yeah, I think that's similar to me as well. Like, it's interesting because my initial introduction to computers would have been watching my older brothers kind of play computer games and actually being told to get out the room, or like, you know, "We're busy now. Don't bother us." And then, what actually happened is when they left the room, I managed to play what they were playing, which was the first ever GTA. I don't know if anyone ever played this, but it is so cool if you look back on it. You could probably find emulators online, but it was, like, a bird's eye view, like, way of operating.
And it was probably also that drive where you get frustrated on a computer because you want to do something, so, like you were saying, Marc, where you went to edit the sound files because you want to change something. You want to do something. I definitely think that is something which I felt as well is that frustration of I want to change this thing. And then, that kind of gets into well, how does it work? And if I know how it works, then I can probably change it.
MARC: Yeah. And once you figure out how things work, it's also really exciting. Like, once you figure out the initialization file on Windows, like, you can edit, like, what level is unlocked right away. It's kind of cheat codes but not really. And there are some really fun ones. Like, I would edit sound files for racing games. And, usually, it's just a base sound file, and then they would pitch shift the sound to make it sound like an engine. So, if you record your voice, it's just really funny.
RÉMY: So, Marc, you mentioned moving to management positions quite early. Do you remember what made you do this move? Was it for, like, a natural path in your career, or was it something you really wanted from the first part of your career as a developer? What happened at this moment?
MARC: Yeah, that was not completely planned. Like, I don't think I really plan my career precisely. It's just something that happens. So, I joined Drivy after, like, I was already a software engineer for, like, five years at that point. I joined as a lead backend engineer. I did that for three years. And after three years, the company went from...I think there was, like, three software engineers to a dozen. There was a need for more structure, and the CTO, at the time so, Nicolas, wanted to focus more on products. And it was hard to do both, like do the product side, the design, the data, and do the engineering, the software, and so on.
So, he wanted to get a bit away from software engineering and more into product. So, there was a gap in the organization. I was there. I was interested to try, and I was already doing some more things on the human side, so talking to people, organizing, internal communication. I kind of liked it. So, I was excited to try, give it a try. It was really interesting.
I found that it was a different way to have an impact on the team. I just kept doing it. And my plan was to keep doing it until I'm bored with it. And I'm still not bored with it, even though you kind of miss just actually building the software yourselves, actually coding. So, that's also why I'm trying something different right now with my mobile app adventure.
SAMI: Right. So, on the side, you've got this Shadow Boxing App, which, in my dedicated research, I downloaded and had a go with it.
MARC: Did you actually try it, or did you just click around?
SAMI: I did a proper workout, mate. I did. I put myself as, like, the absolute beginner. I did it on my MacBook Pro. I know it's built for iPad or iPhone, but it still worked amazingly well. And it kind of reminded me why I stopped doing boxing because it's hard work.
MARC: [laughs] Yeah, it is.
SAMI: It's not a gimmick this thing, right? So, it's like, the best way to describe it is it's essentially replacing if I was to go to the gym and have a trainer who's telling me kind of the moves to make or how to do it, then this kind of replaces that trainer. So, it's something you can do at home. It was really cool. I was surprised, actually. I thought, at the beginning, it's not going to be that interactive, or it won't actually be as hard or difficult as a workout, and it really was. So, it's, yeah, it was really cool, really interesting to try it.
And going into that, you say you wanted to get back more into coding, and that's why you are doing this kind of, like, app on the side, or it allowed you to kind of do a bit more coding away from the people management. You've been involved in a lot of startups, and I actually often get...as consultants, when we work at thoughtbot, we get a lot of people who come with different startup ideas. When you look back at all the startups you've been involved with, do you think more startups are successful than those that fail? Or have you seen a lot of startups...actually, people come with these great ideas; they want to build this amazing product, but it's actually really hard to be a successful product?
MARC: I think it's [inaudible 10:22] how to have the right idea, be at the right spot at the right time, build the right team, get enough momentum. I think most startups fail, and even startups that are successful often can be the result of a pivot. Like, I know companies that pivoted a bunch of times before finding any success. So, it's really hard actually...if I take my past four companies, only two are still alive. Like, the first two went under. Actually, there's even more companies that went under after I left. Yeah, it's just really hard to get anything off the ground. So, yeah, it's complicated, and I have a lot of respect for all the founders that go through it.
For The Shadow Boxing App, I worked on it for the past three years, but I'm only working on it almost full-time for the past two months. And it was way safer. I could check the product-market fit. I could check if I enjoyed working on it. So, I guess it was easier. I had the luxury of having a full-time job. Building the app didn't take that much time.
But to answer your question, I think, from my experience, most startups fail. And the ones that succeed it's kind of lightning in a bottle, or, like, there's a lot of factors that get into it. It's hard to replicate. A lot of people try to replicate some science, some ideas. They go, oh, we'll do this, and we'll do that. And we use this technique that Google uses and so on, but it's never that straightforward.
SAMI: Yeah, I'm so happy you said that because I think it's a real brutal truth that I'd also say most of the startup projects that I've worked on probably have failed. Like, there's very few that actually make it. It's such a saturated market. And I think, I guess, in your role as advising startups, it's really good to come in with that honesty at the beginning and to say, "It's a big investment if you want to build something. Most people probably aren't successful." And then, when you work from that perspective, you can have, like, way more transparent and open discussions from the get-go.
Because when you're outside of tech...and a lot of people have this idea of if I could just get an app to do my idea, I'm going to be the next Facebook. I'm going to be the next, you know, Amazon Marketplace. And it just kind of isn't like that. You've got these massive leaders in Facebook, Amazon, Google, Netflix. But below that, there's a lot of failures and a massively saturated market. So, yeah, just, it's so interesting that you also see it in a similar way.
MARC: What I saw evolve in the past 10 years is the fact that people got more realistic with it. So, maybe 10 years ago, I would have people coming to me with just the most ridiculous idea, like, you know, I'll do Airbnb for cats. And really think, yeah, I just need a good idea, and that's it. But now I feel like people kind of understand that it's more complicated. There's way more resources online. People are more educated. They also see way more successes. Failures are also a bit more advertised.
We saw a bunch of startups just go under. It feels like every month I get an email from a tool I used in the past saying, "Oh, we're shutting down," and so on. So, I think it's not as bad as 10 years ago where weekly I would have just people asking me, "I want to build this app," and the app would be just the most ridiculous thing or something that would be really smart, but it's really like, "Oh, I want to do, like, food delivery but better than what exists." It's like, yeah, that's a really good idea, but then you need...it's not only software. There's logistics. There's so much behind it that you don't seem to understand just yet.
But, as a coach, so, what I'm doing is I'm helping startups that are usually before or after series A but not too large of startups just go to the next stage. And people are really aware of that and really worried. Like, they see money going down, market fit not necessarily being there. And they know, like, their company is at risk.
And especially when you talk to founders, they're really aware that, you know, everything could be collapsing really quickly. If they make, like, three really bad decisions in a row, you're basically done. Obviously, it depends on the company, but yeah, people are more aware than before, especially nowadays where money is a bit harder to get. Let's say two years ago, there was infinite money, it felt like. Now it's more tight. People are more looking at the unit economics precisely. So, people need to be more realistic to succeed.
RÉMY: What's the kind of recurrent struggle the startups you coach usually face? Apparently, it quite changed in the past decade, but maybe what are the current struggles they face?
MARC: It really depends. It's kind of broad. But, usually, it would be, let's say, a startup after their first round of funding, let's say, if you take startups that are looking for funding. So, you usually have a group of founders, two to four, usually two or three, that are really entrepreneurs that want to bootstrap some things.
They're builders. They're hacking things together, and they're really excited about the product.
And, suddenly, fast forward a few years, they're starting to be successful, and they have to lead a team of, you know, like, 50 people, 100 people, and they weren't prepared for that. They were really prepared to, like, build software. Like, especially the CTOs, they are usually really great hackers. They can, like, create a product really quickly. But, suddenly, they need to manage 30 engineers, and it's completely different, and they're struggling with that. So, that's a common problem for CTOs. And then, it creates a bunch of problems.
Like, you would have CEOs and CTOs not agreeing on how to approach the strategy, how to approach building a thing. What should be the methodology? Something that worked with 3 engineers around the table doesn't work with 50 engineers distributed in 5 countries. And if it's your first time being a CTO, and often founders of early-stage startups are first-time CTOs, it can be really hard to figure out.
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RÉMY: In your past companies, so you've been VP and CTO. So, in your opinion, what's the best a VP or a CTO can bring to a scaling startup? What are your best tips to share?
MARC: I guess it depends [laughs], obviously, like, depending on the stage of the company, the size of the company. For instance, when I was at Drivy, at some point, the most important thing was scaling the team hiring, and so on. But, at some point, we got acquired by Getaround, and the priorities got shifted. It was more like, okay, how do you figure out this new setup for the company and the team? Like, what is good? What is bad? How do you communicate with the team? How do you get people to stay motivated when everything is changing? How do you make sure you make the right decisions?
And then, when I joined Back Market, Back Market when I joined, I had a team of a bit less than 12 engineers reporting directly to me. And after a bit more than a year, I had 60, and I hired most of them. So, here the challenge was just scaling insanely fast. Like, the company is really successful. Like, Back Market is selling refurbished electronics in a mission to, you know, provide a viable alternative to buying new electronics. So, it's basically, do you want a smartphone that is both cheaper and more ecologically viable? And most people would say yes to that. So, a company is insanely successful, but it's really hard to scale.
So, at that point, the role was, okay, how do you make sure you scale as well as possible with a lot of pressure while still leaving the team in a state that they're able to still build software? Because it's just really chaotic. Like, you can't, like, 5X your team without chaos. But how do you minimize that but still go really fast?
SAMI: Yeah. So, not only did I try that Shadow App. I actually went on that Backup website. What's it called? It's not called Backup. What's it called again?
MARC: Back Market.
SAMI: Back Market. Thank you. Yeah, it was really cool. I checked my old iPhone SE from 2020, which I've kept for about...over three years, I've had this iPhone. And they said they would give me $72 for it, which was really cool. So, it sounds like a really cool idea.
MARC: That's something we worked on, which is, basically, if you have any old phones in your drawer, it's a really bad spot for them. And so, there's a service. You go on the website. You say, "I have this, I have that; I have this, I have that." And either we buy it from you, or we just take it away from you, and we recycle them, which is much better than just having them collect dust.
SAMI: Yeah, no, it's a great idea. What interested me when you were speaking about kind of these different positions that you've been in, I was almost expecting you to talk about maybe, like, a technical challenge or code complexity difficulty. But, actually, what you've described is more people problems. And how do we scale with regards to people, and how do we keep people motivated?
So, I guess using that experience, and this might be counterintuitive to what a lot of people think, but what do you think is the hardest thing about software development? I know there could be many things. But if you had to pick something that is the most difficult, and maybe we can all have an answer to what we think this is, but starting with you, Marc, what do you think is the hardest thing about software development then?
MARC: What I saw is how do you build something that works for enough time to bring value to the customers? So, it's easy to hack something together pretty quickly and get it in front of people, but then it might not be reliable. It might break down. Or you could decide to build something perfect and spend, like, two years on it and then ship it, and then it's really stable, but maybe it's not what people want. And finding this balance between shipping something fast, but shipping something that is reliable enough for what you're building. Obviously, if you're building a health care system, you will have more, like, the bar will be higher than if you build, like, Airbnb for cats.
Finding this balance and adjusting as you go is really hard. So, for instance, when do you introduce caching? Because, obviously, caching is hard to do right. If you don't do it, your site will be slow, which can be okay for a time. But then if you introduce it too late, then it's really hard to just retrofit into whatever you already have. So, finding the right moment to introduce a new practice, introduce a new technology is tricky.
And then, like, I talked a lot about the people, and it's also because I spent quite a bit of time in leadership position. But, at the end of the day, it will be the people writing the code that gets the software to exist and run. So, having people aligned and agreeing on the vision is also key because unless I'm the only developer on the project, I can't really make all decisions on things that are going to get built. So, figuring out how to get people motivated, interested in just building in the same direction is really important. It's really easy.
Like, one thing with Drivy, when I was there, that was really fun to see, like, many people have this reaction, especially the more senior people joining the company. They would see the engineering team, and they were really, really surprised by how small it was because we were being really, really efficient. Like, we were paying really close attention to what we would work on.
So, kind of technology we would introduce would be quite conservative on both to really be able to deliver what is the most important. So, we were able to do a lot with, honestly, not a lot of people. And I think this is a great mark for success. You don't need a thousand people to build your software if you ask the right question, like, "Do I need to build X or Y?" and always having these discussions.
RÉMY: What's your opinion on that, Sami?
SAMI: Yeah, I guess it changes. Like, for example, today, the hardest thing about software development was just getting Jira to work. That has literally ruined my whole day. But I've found, for me, what I find is the most difficult thing to do is making code resilient to change. What I mean by that is writing code that's easy to change. And a lot of that, I guess, we try to work on at thoughtbot, as consultants, is following kind of design principles and best practices and certain design patterns that really make the code easy to change. Because that, I think, when I'm writing code is the biggest challenge.
And where I feel when I'm working with our clients one of the biggest things they can invest in, which is difficult because there's not a lot of visibility around it or metrics, is ensuring that code that's written is easy to change because, at some point, it will. And I've also worked on systems which are bigger, and when you can't change them, conversations start happening about the cost of change. Do we rewrite it from the ground up again? And that opens a whole different can of worms. So, that, for me, I think, is definitely one of the hardest things. How about yourself, Rémy?
RÉMY: I don't know about the most difficult. I mean, there are many things difficult. But I remember something that I had to put extra effort, so maybe it was one of the most difficult for me. When I started being a consultant, when I joined thoughtbot was to understand what's the boundary between executing and giving an advice? So, basically, I discovered that when you're a consultant, but it works also when you're a developer in a team, you know, you're not just only the one who is going to write the code. You're supposed to be also someone with expertise, experience to share it and to make the project and the team benefit from it.
So, at some point, I discovered that I should not just listen to what the client would say they want. Obviously, that's what they want, but it's more interesting and more difficult to understand why they want it and why they actually need, which could be different from what they want. So, it's a whole different conversation to discover together what is actually the necessary thing to build, and with your expertise and experience, try to find the thing that is going to be the most efficient, reliable, and making both the client and the customers happy.
MARC: Yeah. And as software engineers, it's really easy to get excited about a problem and just go, "Oh, I could solve it this way." But then you need to step back and go, "Well, maybe it doesn't need fixing, or we should do something completely different." At some point, I was working with a customer service organization. In their workflows, they had to go on, let's say, five different pages and click on the button to get something to do one action.
And so, what they asked for is to have those five buttons on one single page, and so, they could go, click, click, click, click, click. But after looking at it, what they needed is just automation of that, not five buttons on the page. But it's really easy to go, oh, and we could make those buttons, like, kind of generic and have a button creator thing and make it really fancy. When you step back, you go, oh, they shouldn't be clicking that many buttons.
SAMI: Yeah, that makes so much sense because just in that example...I can't remember where I read this, but every line of code you write has to be maintained. So, in that example where you've got five buttons, you're kind of maintaining probably a lot more code than when you've got the single button, which goes to, I don't know, a single action or a method that will handle kind of all the automation for you. And that's also, you know, driving at simplicity.
So, sometimes, like, you see this really cool problem, and there's a really cool way to solve it. But if you can solve it, you mentioned, like, being conservative with the type of frameworks maybe you used in a previous company, like, solve it in the most simple way, and you'll thank yourself later. Because, at some point, you have to come back to it, and maintain it, change it. Yeah, so it makes a lot of sense.
And, Marc, you said you started when you were 7, which is really young. Through that amount of time, you've probably seen massive changes in the way websites look, feel, and how they work. In that time, what's the biggest change you actually think you've seen?
MARC: The biggest thing I saw is, when I started, internet didn't exist or at least wasn't available. Like, I remember being at school and the teacher would ask like, "How many people have a computer at home?" And we'd be like, two or three people. So, people didn't have internet until I was like 14, 15, I'd say. So, that's the biggest one.
But, let's say, after it started, they just got more complicated. Like, so, the complexity is getting crazy. Like, I remember, at some point, where I saw I think it was called Aviary. It was basically Photoshop in the browser, and I was just insanely impressed by just the fact that you could do this in the browser. And, nowadays, like, you've got Figma, and you've got so many tools that are insanely impressive. Back then, it was just text, images, and that's it.
I actually wrote a blog post a few years ago about how I used to build websites just using frames. So, I don't know if you're familiar with just frames, but I didn't really know how to do divs. So, I would just do frames because that's what I understood back then, again, little kid. But it was kind of working. You were dealing with IE 5 or, like, I remember, like, professionally fixing bugs for IE 5.5 or, like, AOL, like, 9, something ridiculous like this.
So, building a website just got way easier but also way more complicated, if that makes sense. Like, it's way easier to do most things. For instance, I don't know, like, 20 years ago, you wanted a rounded corner; you would have to create images and kind of overlay them in a weird way. It would break in many cases. Nowadays, you want rounded corners? That's a non-topic. But now you need, like, offline capabilities of your website. And, in a lot of cases, there's really complex features that are expected from users. So, the bar is getting raised to crazy levels.
SAMI: Yeah, I always wonder about this. Like, when you look at how the internet used to be and how people develop for the internet, and, like you're saying, now it's more complex but easier to do some things. I don't know if as developers we're making things harder or easier for ourselves. Like, if you look at the amount of technology someone needs to know to get started, it grows constantly. To do this, you have to add this framework, and you need to have this library, and maybe even a different language, and then, to even host something now, the amount of technologies you need to know. Do you think we're making things harder for ourselves, or do you think easier?
MARC: Well, I guess there's always back and forth, like, regarding complexity. So, things will get really, really complex, and then someone will go, "Well, let's stop that and simplify." That's why, like, I'm seeing some people not rejecting React and so on, but going a simpler route like Rails has options like this. There's people using HTMX, which is really simple. So, just going back to something simpler.
I think a lot of the really complex solutions also come from the fact that now we have massive teams building websites, and you need that complexity to be able to handle the team size. But it's kind of, then you need more people to handle the complexity, and it's just getting crazy. Yeah, honestly, I don't know. I'm seeing a lot of things that feel too complex for...like, the technology feels really complicated to accomplish some things that should be simple or at least feel simple. But, at the same time, there are things that got so simple that it's ridiculous like just accepting payment.
I remember, like, if you wanted to accept payment on a site, it would be months of work, and now it takes a minute. You just plug in Stripe, and it works. And it's often cheaper than what it used to be. So, it's kind of...or deploying. You mentioned deploying can be really hard. Well, you don't need to have a physical server in your room just eating your place up to have your website, your personal website running. You just push it to Vercel, or Heroku, or whatever, or just a static page on S3. So, this got simpler, but then, yeah, you can get it to be so much more crazy. So, if you host your static website on S3, fairly simple. But then if you try to understand permissions on S3, then, you know, it's over.
RÉMY: I don't know if it's really in the path of our discussion. I just wanted to ask you, so this is the on tour series, where we...so, usually, the Giant Robots podcast used to be a little bit more American-centric, and this on tour is moving back to the other side of the Atlantic with, again, Europe, West Asia, and Africa. You've been part of a company, Drivy, which expanded from France to neighboring countries in Europe. What could you tell our listeners about how to expand a business internationally?
MARC: That's a tough question, especially in Europe. Because I know looking from the outside, like, if you're from the U.S. and you look at Europe, it feels like, you know, a uniform continent, but really, it's very different. Like, just payment methods are different. Culture is very different.
For instance, when I was working at Back Market in France, one of the branding aspects of Back Market was its humor. Like, we would be making a lot of jokes on the website, and it would work really well in France. Like, people would love the brand. But then you expand to other countries, and they just don't find that funny at all. Like, it's not helping at all, and they're expecting a different tone of voice. So, it's not just, okay, I need to translate my own page; it's I need to internationalize for this market.
I guess my advice is do it country by country. Sometimes I see companies going like, oh, we opened in 20 different countries, and you go, how even do you do that? And spend some time understanding how people are using your product or, like, a similar product locally because you would be surprised by what you learn. Sometimes there's different capabilities.
For instance, when Drivy went to the UK, there's so much more you can learn. There's the government database that you can look up, and it really helps with managing risk. If people are known to steal cars, you can kind of figure it out. I'm simplifying a bit, but you can use this. You don't have that in France because we just don't have this solution. But if you go to Nordic countries, for instance, they have way more electric vehicles, so maybe the product doesn't work as well.
So, it's really understanding what's different locally and being willing to invest, to adapt. Because if you go, okay, I'm going to open in the Netherlands but you don't adopt the payment methods that are used in the Netherlands, you might as well not open at all. So, it's either you do it properly and you kind of figure out what properly means for your product, or you postpone, and you do it well later.
Like, right now, I'm struggling a bit with my app because it's open. So, it's on the App Store, so it's open globally. And it's a SaaS, so it's simpler, but I struggle with language. So, it's in French and English. I spoke both of this language, obviously, French better than English. But I think I'm doing okay with both. But I also built it in Spanish because I speak some Spanish fairly poorly, and I wanted to try to hit a different market like the Mexican market that are doing boxing quite a lot. But the quality doesn't seem there.
Like, I don't have the specific boxing lingo, so I'm contemplating just rolling it back, like, removing the Spanish language until I get it really well, maybe with a translator dedicated to it that knows boxing in Spanish. Because I work with translators that would translate, but they don't really know that, yeah, like a jab in boxing. In Spanish, they might also say, "Jab." They won't translate it to, like, [inaudible 38:31].
SAMI: Yeah. At thoughtbot, we have one of our clients they wanted to release their app also internationally. And so, we had also kind of a lot of these problems. We even had to handle...so, in some languages, you go from left to right, right to left. So, that kind of also changed a lot of the way you would design things is mainly for people who are going from left to right. I mean, that's thinking kind of more Europe, U.S.-centric. And then, you could be releasing your app into a different country where they read the other direction.
So, yeah, a lot of this stuff is really interesting, especially the culture, like you're saying. Do they find this humor funny? And then, how do they translate things? Which, in my head, I think, could you use AI to do that. Which is a nice segue into, like, the mandatory question about AI, which we can't let you go until we ask you.
MARC: [laughs]
SAMI: So, okay, obviously, I'm going to ask you about your thoughts on AI and where you think we're headed. But I've seen something interesting, which I don't know if this is something that resonates with you as well. I've seen a bit of a trend where the more experienced developers or more senior developers I talk to seem to be a bit more calm and less concerned. Whereas I would consider myself as less experienced, and I feel, like, kind of more anxious, more nervous, more jumping on the bandwagon sort of feeling of keeping an eye on it. So, I guess, with your experience, what are your thoughts on AI? Where do you think we are headed?
MARC: That's a big question, and it feels like it's changing month to month. It feels way more interesting than other trends before. Like, I'm way more excited about the capabilities of AI than, like, NFTs or stuff like this. I'm actively using AI tooling in my app. I was using some AI at Back Market. So, it's interesting. There's a bunch of things you can be doing.
Personally, I don't think that it's going to, like, make programming irrelevant, for instance. It will just change a bit how you will build things just like...so, we talked about what changed in the past. For instance, at some point, you would need a team of people moving around physical computers and servers and just hooking them up to be able to have a website. But now, most people would just use a cloud provider. So, all those people either they work for the cloud provider, or they're out of a job. But really what happened is most shifted into something different, and then we focused on something different. Instead of learning how to handle a farm of servers, we learned how to, I don't know, handle more concurrency in our models.
And I think when I look back, I feel like, technically, maybe, I don't know, 70%, 80% of what I learned is now useless. Like, I spent years getting really good at handling Internet Explorer as a web developer. Now it's just gone, so it's just gone forever. And it feels like there's some practice that we're having right now that will be gone forever thanks to AI or because of AI, depending on how you look at it. But then there'll be new things to do. I'm not sure yet what it will be, but it will create new opportunities. There are some things that look a bit scary, like, or creepy. But I'm not worried about jobs or things like this.
I'm a bit concerned about people learning programming right now because, yeah, there's a lot of hand-holding, and there's a lot of tools that you have to pay to get access to this hand-holding. So, if you're a student right now in school learning programming and your school is giving you some AI assistant, like Copilot or whatever, and this assistant is really good, but suddenly it goes away because you're not paying anymore, or, like, the model change, if you don't know how to code anymore, then it's a problem. Or maybe you're not struggling as much. And you're not digging deep enough, and so you're learning slower. And you're being a bit robbed of the opportunity to learn by the AI. So, it's just giving you the solution.
But it's just, like, the way I use it right now, so I don't have an assistant enabled, but I usually have, like, a ChatGPT window open somewhere. It's more like a better Stack Overflow or a more precise Stack Overflow. And that helps me a lot, and that's really convenient. Like, right now, I'm building mostly using Swift and Swift UI, but I'm mainly a Ruby and JavaScript developer. So, I'm struggling a lot and being able to ask really simple questions.
I had a case just this morning where I asked how to handle loading of images without using the assets folder in Xcode. I just couldn't figure it out, but it's really simple. So, it was able to tell me, like, right away, like, five options on how to do it, and I was able to pick the one that would fit. So, yeah, really interesting, but yeah, I'm not that worried. The only part I would be worried is if people are learning right now and relying way too much on AI.
RÉMY: Well, at least it's positive for our job. Thank you for making us believe in a bright future, Marc.
MARC: [laughs]
RÉMY: All right. Thank you so much, Marc, for joining us. It was a real pleasure. Before we leave, Marc, if you want to be contacted, if people want to get a hold of you, how can you be contacted?
MARC: There's two ways: either LinkedIn, look up Marc G Gauthier. Like, the middle initial is important because Marc Gauthier is basically John Smith in France. My website, which is marcgg.com. You can find my blog. You can find a way to hire me as a coach or advisor. That's the best way to reach out to me.
RÉMY: Thank you so much. And thank you, Sami, as well.
You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. You can find me on social media as rhannequin.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
Thanks for listening, and see you next time.
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In this podcast episode of "Giant Robots On Tour," hosts Sami Birnbaum and Rémy Hannequin explore mental health in the age of artificial intelligence with Sara Wilder, a Therapeutic Life Consultant and Licensed Clinical Social Worker. Sami shares his own brief foray into psychotherapy before transitioning to tech, highlighting the relevance of mental health in today's rapidly evolving technological landscape. Sara, whose path to therapy was influenced by her personal struggles and a desire to help others, discusses her unique approach as a Therapeutic Life Consultant, which blends traditional therapy with direct coaching and consulting.
Sara elaborates on her journey and how the COVID-19 pandemic pushed her towards integrating technology into her practice. She transitioned from in-person sessions to virtual consultations, emphasizing the impact of this shift on mental health and brain function. Sara's interest in AI stemmed from her need to scale her business and her desire to use technology to aid her clients. She discusses her experience with AI tools like ChatGPT, both the benefits and challenges, such as generating relatable content and addressing AI "hallucinations." Sara highlights the importance of using AI ethically and maintaining human oversight to ensure the authenticity and accuracy of AI-generated outputs.
The conversation also delves into broader concerns about the impact of AI and technology on mental health. Sami and Rémy discuss the addictive nature of technology and its parallels with substance addiction, emphasizing the need for self-imposed boundaries and emotional intelligence. Sara shares insights into how AI can be a valuable tool in therapy, such as using AI for social anxiety role-playing or to generate conversation prompts. The episode concludes with a discussion on the balance between leveraging AI for efficiency and maintaining human connection, stressing the need for ongoing education and ethical considerations in AI development and deployment.
Follow Sara Wilder on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sara-wilder-lcsw-lcas-ccs-9753517b/). Visit her website: sarawilderlcsw.com (https://sarawilderlcsw.com/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
SAMI: Yes, and we are back. And this is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, the Giant Robots on Tour series coming to you from Europe, West Asia, and Africa, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Sami Birnbaum.
RÉMY: And I'm your other host, Rémy Hannequin.
SAMI: Okay, if you're wondering where Jared is, we finally got rid of him. No, that's a joke, Jared, if you're listening. He was my previous co-host. You can go back to our other podcasts. But we've got Rémy on board today. And you could take a look at our previous podcast, where we introduce the Giant Robots on Tour series, where you'll find out about all the different co-hosts. And you can learn more about Rémy's sourdough bread.
Joining us today is Sara Wilder, a Therapeutic Life Consultant, Licensed Clinical Social Worker, and Clinical Addictions Specialist.
Okay, Sara, this is going to sound a little bit strange, but, actually, once upon a time in my own life, I kind of wanted to be you, not exactly you because that would be even more strange.
SARA: [chuckles]
SAMI: But before I got into coding and tech, I was interested in psychotherapy. And I started a course and, for different reasons, it didn't work out, and I never pursued that career. But what's really interested us about you is the work and research you're doing around mental health in this new world of AI, artificial intelligence. You have a really interesting talk coming up at the CreativeVerse Conference in North Carolina. And we actually have Fatima from thoughtbot who's going to be presenting at the same conference.
And you're specifically talking about prioritizing mental health in the age of AI. And there is so much we want to ask you about this. But before we do, I always like to go back to the start with my guests. Everyone has a story, and I'm interested in your journey. What led you into the world of therapy?
SARA: Well, to unpack that, it's, like, probably way too long for this podcast, but in a nutshell, I had no idea what...I did not want to be a therapist when I grew up, so thank you for wanting that more than me. But I landed here, I think, partly just because of, you know, I always wanted to help people. I never really knew what that was going to look like. I thought it maybe was going into nursing or more of the medical side. But really what landed me here and made me stay here and really choose to stay in my profession...because, at one point, I was like, no, I'm not sure I could do this for the rest of my life; this is a lot. But it was really my own suffering.
I had to take a really hard look at where I came from, what I had gone through, and why I wanted to just, you know, like, help people, but then try to keep changing how I did that. And I'm glad I chose to stay put in this kind of therapeutic, you know, life. Therapeutic life consultant is a term that I kind of formulated myself because I'm not quite a traditional therapist anymore. I'm not sitting in an office with the couch. We talk a lot about our relationship with our mothers.
But I have more of a personality that's direct and kind of coaching. And I want to go more into consulting and help people understand how to do their own healing work using my clinical background of being in diagnostics in different hospital settings, stuff like that. And because I had to do my own work, and I had to understand how to make sense of how my pain and my suffering was holding me back, and how I could turn that really into something that could help me thrive.
SAMI: Yeah, I think that's really powerful. I think that's a really powerful place to be able to come from, you know, to be able to kind of take your own challenges and the things that you've struggled with. And it's kind of like almost sometimes you have...the best teachers are the people who've gone through it themselves. And I can imagine that's been quite a journey. If only we had a longer podcast, right?
SARA: [chuckles]
SAMI: We could go into all our journeys. But it's super interesting. And, specifically, what has then kind of propelled you more towards looking into the tech aspect of it, right? So, I'm assuming...well, AI, at least, is relatively recent. And so, I'm assuming when you started out, it was more, like you're saying, a therapeutic setting, a life coaching setting, and now there's this sort of other angle, which is kind of coming into it. So, how did you end up getting involved or interested in the tech or the AI side?
SARA: I am an entrepreneur myself. When we go into what we call private practice, there is an element of business that most of us don't know. They don't really teach you business in social work school, and I kind of had to figure it out. But what really pushed me off that ledge to just figure it out and fly was COVID. And I, you know, went from a traditional office with the couch to being virtual. And it was going to be temporary, but I made the decision, and it was quite a difficult decision, given what I had already experienced in helping people through that transition, you know, going from traditional office spaces to at-home working.
But it was, yeah, I really had to understand the impact of technology on my practice, let alone my life. Working from home is a very different lifestyle when it comes to understanding what mental health means. You know, working from home and brain health is a big focus of, you know, what I discuss with my clients and educate them on. But more recently, and this is kind of how I got into the conference, when I started realizing that a lot of my own mental health was...I needed an outlet of creativity of something to be able to help me cope. I realized my business, and my content, and my passion could be that. So, I had to figure out how to scale myself.
And I'm still learning AI. I have an assistant, and she helps me. I have to use her to help me use ChatGPT because it is a beast if you don't know not only just learning the program but learning how to use it and also for it to really be authentic and not necessarily something that, you know, the bot just develops content for you, and you don't make it your own. So, it's a big old brain twister. And the concept of perception is very delicate, let alone with AI. But when you bring it into the tech world, it's a completely different type of language.
RÉMY: Since you started working with AI, you mentioned ChatGPT, have you noticed answers or generated content that is either incredibly useful and accurate, and, on the other side, other content that might be, I won't say disturbing, but at least not exactly what you would expect from a human?
SARA: Yeah, absolutely. It kind of weirds me out to, like...because I use it to kind of help my creative flow, like, if I have a blog post that I need to write. And it's very important for me to, you know, bring myself into my writing. So, when I started with ChatGPT, and it brings up something, and I'm like, who ever says that? Like, no one says that. Like, that's completely maybe like, you know, just it's a little bit unrelatable and a little stiff, I guess, is the best word I can use.
And then, I go through the processing of like, okay, let me figure out how I would write this. I feel like it does help me. It does prolong the process a little bit more. But I have also, yeah, so just kind of relatability factor, for me, is the first thing that sticks out.
But the other thing that I've learned a little bit more about listening to, you know, other podcasts and just trying to educate myself, which is a funny term because we use this, you know, in my field of mental health all the time, is it comes up with hallucination. So, it will fill in gaps of, you know, whether it be data, or in a statistic, or whether it's just a concept that it kind of makes up to kind of fill and have fillers in what it produces, which I'm still new to understanding what that really means. Like, yeah, it definitely can be some...and it needs to be something that we fact-check as well since it's just pulling from the general abyss of the internet, and that's not always the most accurate, you know, place of reference in general.
SAMI: Yeah, I can vouch for the abyss of the internet not always being the best place to find yourself [laughs]. There's some rabbit holes we've probably all been down. But it's so interesting because I find that the world has woken up to the impact that social media has had on everyone's mental health. And it almost feels like that was our first experiment with how tech can really impact us as a society and as individuals. And so, we've kind of seen that experiment and how that's played out, and I would argue we've probably failed. We've probably had this social media wave. And whether you'd look at it from a government perspective or a healthcare perspective, I don't actually think we've handled it well.
And it's almost, like, now we're on the cusp of our second experiment, right? This is now, okay, no longer social media. I mean, that is still relevant but put that to the side for a second. And you've got AI coming out with all these chatbots, generative AI, whether that's across images, text, and the impact that is going to have. So, I feel like the space that you're in is huge. I think you spoke before we started recording about, like, there's a mental health crisis. What do you see, or what concerns do you have given what we've seen with social media, the impact AI can have on our mental health?
SARA: You know, there's a lot of different points here, but I think I'll just go with the first thing that comes to my mind is the limits. There are not many limits, let alone...so, tech in itself, but just in our own natural human world, as individuals, we have to learn what boundaries are. We have to learn self-imposed limitations or else someone else is going to impose them on us, and that just doesn't feel as good when someone puts their own limitations on our reality.
So, when we bring this into tech,...and I also include...since my background is in addictions, I started realizing that correlation between, like, technology, the boom of access to information is really...it's a pleasure concept, is that when we have a thought and we can just go get information about the answer and it's immediate, that immediate gratification teaches the brain like, oh, I can do this. I can handle this myself. We're not looking at the by-product of that anymore. And I think because we're dealing with it, we can't really...we're so in it now. We can't see that like, oh, this could potentially be a problem, because it is.
We have become an immediate access world. I mean, even in rural...like, kids in Africa have a TikTok dancing. And they don't have running water in their communities, but they have a cell phone where they can get support. Like, I'm glad they can because that's great access. But they're not necessarily realizing the addictive aspect of what just being interconnected this way has on the brain, let alone the foundational understanding of what boundaries, and self-discipline, or just mental discipline would look like.
So, then when you bring this, I think, into the, you know, the AI world, we're already on a shaky ground of abuse of information and having too much information and not knowing how to process it. And I think that's probably been...I know an issue, for me, is that when I have too much information, I can't necessarily ask questions very well because I'm like, what is the question? Like, I know my brain is oversaturated, essentially, with information as well as potentially chemicals at this point because I'm just working so fast, so fast, so fast.
And I'm in my mid-thirties at this point. So, a teenager who's already dealing with impulse control issues because they're naturally developing, that gets really complicated very quickly. And that's what, in turn, we call attention deficit disorder, anxiety, autism spectrum. That's a little bit more complicated, but a lot of that intersects to be like, well, what are we dealing with? We're dealing with immediate gratification and a sensory processing issue because we're looking at screens, and our brains don't know how to adapt to that let alone regulate that.
SAMI: That makes so much sense. I guess it's because it's kind of a world that we all inhabit, right? As much as we talk about this and sometimes we like to think of the other like we're talking about someone else, I've found this in my own life as well. I'm addicted to my phone in ways, and I'm also seeking that immediate gratification. And it's almost, like you said, that dopamine hit, right? If there's a piece of information I want or there's a video that I want to see, it's there, and it's immediate.
And when you say these things, I guess it's kind of...it's a bit scary. And then, I wonder, on a more macro level, why, as a society, do we do this to ourselves? I don't expect anyone on this podcast [chuckles] to have the answer, right? But I'm always interested, like, if we're aware of this and we're cognizant of what's going on, and, Rémy, feel free to jump in on this as well, like, as a society, why are we doing this to ourselves?
SARA: Now, by no means is this...like, this is just my answer, and I don't have the answer for everything. But I've had...sometimes as a therapist, you have to fill space and come up with an answer. So, my hypothesis is that it's natural human behavior. I think our brains...we are, you know, survival of the fittest. That's natural. Like, at the end of the day, we're going to fight for our life. And life really comes down, in my perspective, it comes down to, like, we have suffering, and we have pleasure.
However, we've learned now that as an evolving, you know, species, that we are one of the only species that can build executive functioning skills in our brains and have different parts of that that we have to kind of understand the baseline. Survival has gotten us so far, and we've made a lot of great headway with that. But pleasure is not sustainable. Pleasure is a beautiful concept to have in life. But when we talk about what's the goal of life, we want to be happy. Happy and pleasure are actually two very different things to the brain. And a lot of it is just a matter of space being used.
Pleasure and dopamine is actually a very small part of the brain, whereas happiness expands and is able to circulate chemicals, and synapses, and energy throughout the rest of the brain but that it has to be a conscious choice. And I think a lot of people don't realize, yeah, you're making choices. I'm not saying, like, no one doesn't have, you know, some degree of free will, but if you're dealing with any degree of stress, emotions, cognitive bias in general, you're not making an actual, like, expansive choice about what options you have to expand your consciousness and your brain capacity.
RÉMY: I like the way that today we realized that a lot of things related to this is chemicals that we all have, which remove a little bit the guilt when you are addicted, you know, because it can happen to anyone. But also, it's a reminder that it can happen to anyone. So, nobody is immune to that because that's how we're built. And I really like this approach. It's just natural, which means it's okay to feel it. But it's also dangerous to anyone, so anyone should address it. And, again, if you feel like you're losing it and losing to addiction, it feels good to just know that everybody is entitled to, unfortunately, to feel that at some point in their life.
SARA: I love that you mentioned that, and that's absolutely one of my goals is to break down the stigma of...when I use the word addiction...and I don't do small talk that well because I'm just like, let's talk about some real things here. This is what's going on. And it's scary to think of, like, addiction and what that means because of how we've seen it. And I don't know what it looks like particularly in the countries that you're from...a little bit. But I know, here in America, it's messy. It's hurtful. It's a lot of suffering.
It doesn't make us feel good to even think about that, which is why I try to teach my clients how to manage and regulate that because it does not discriminate. It's your brain. It's doing its natural thing and how you have to train and just learn how to train that. And it can get better, for sure. But yeah, I really try to break through, like, it's not something that we need to keep being scared about because that is actually what gives it its power. It gives that restrictiveness and that isolation and breaks that connection from each other. And that's ultimately what brings us out of an active addictive cycle is connection.
SAMI: Yeah, it's really interesting because technology it almost masks that by making you feel really connected. Like, I'm connected to all these people and all these things, but I don't feel that connection. And that really resonates with me when you talk about the difference between pleasure and happiness.
So, I hope my parents don't listen to this. But when I was in university, I'm pretty sure I had a gaming addiction. So, I used to live in the loft in my house. I don't know what you'd call it in America. Maybe it's called the attic. I was at the top floor. So, essentially, I had...oh, back then, it would have been a PS3, and I was seriously addicted to Call of Duty, playing online.
And I remember doing just all-nighters, like, really often. I remember it got to a point where I would almost have to reset my whole sleep cycle because I ended up in a situation where I'd be awake in the night kind of always playing all night because I couldn't put the game down, and then sleeping during the day. And to get myself back into a normal rhythm, I'd have to force myself to stay awake for 24 hours. And I would even consider myself someone who doesn't have an addictive personality.
But when you were saying about the difference between pleasure and happiness, like, it was definitely hitting that dopamine, and it was pleasurable, but I didn't feel happy. Like, once I stopped, then there was all those feelings that Rémy described, which is, oh no, what have I done? I've wasted so much time and all that guilt that comes with it. So, it's really interesting.
And I guess it's also a bit like a codependency, which is something I've seen that you've touched on in your work as well, which I understand to be an unhealthy reliance on a human relationship. But I'm guessing we're probably seeing more of that and unhealthy reliance on tech software products and AI. Is that something you're seeing in your therapeutic work as well?
SARA: Oh, absolutely. Codependency it's a big topic to unpack. And I'll say it's a balance. We're never going to not be codependent on something because it literally...we're supposed to work together. We need each other to survive and to grow. But the unhealthy parts of it is, I think, because...I'll just speak from my own experience. I was never taught what emotional intelligence was when I was a kid. I grew up in a very middle-class, non-diverse part of the United States, where I didn't understand the foundational, like, what are boundaries? What are emotions? They try to teach you.
And I think that's been something that is going to take people a while to understand. But there is an unhealthy part of it because it's just mixed with...and confuse people of what do we actually need to need other people for. And it naturally sends us...I think this is primarily where relationships become a point of the discussion is relationships are necessary. But they're less successful if you don't have a relationship with yourself as a foundation because that's naturally going to help you realize that you don't need this one person. And you don't attach to a person out of necessity and out of survival or else, yeah, you're going to lose a huge aspect of your identity because you didn't have much of one to begin with.
And so, that's ultimately what I teach and educate people on when I work with them in session is just what codependency really is. We're going to be codependent on something. I'd rather you be aware of it. Denial is just dangerous in general. But being aware of how these things show up, you have a better of a choice now. And free will comes back to really in your control without less consequence over time or less negative consequence over time. [inaudible 20:44] my brother, though, Rémy. Call of Duty...[inaudible 20:48] the attic, it was the basement, but yeah. It doesn't discriminate against gender, but for men...he's also in the military. So, it was a very good outlet for him before he went, you know, active duty or [inaudible 21:02] and just self-expression. You don't have to talk about things.
I don't think this discriminates against country by any means, but I know for America, I try to stay in my lane with just speaking about Americans, is that men have been put in a very tough position when it comes to mental health because society reinforces: keep it together; be the provider; just deal with it, and painted this picture of, like, you don't have and can't express emotions. And then, we wonder why guns are an issue. We wonder why drinking and alcoholism is an issue and, you know, in the male population.
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SAMI: So, there's a lot of concerns. There's a lot of worries, and there's, I guess, negativity around tech and AI. Is there any silver lining? You know, some things we're getting from tech as we already know it, perhaps social media but also AI. Is there anything that we can look at and be like, actually, that will enhance our mental health, improve our society? Are there any positive things that you see coming from it?
SARA: I love that question because it is a heavy conversation. I tell people, if you're considering therapy, like, you got to consider it's a full-time job to intentionally lean into the heaviness of the reality that we live in. There's a lot going on right now. I kind of surprise myself every day as to why I do have some degree of hope. But I think that's also just because I see people recover every day. I am grateful for that because not everyone gets that experience.
If you're working more of a tech job and you're looking more at coding, and data, and screens all day, you don't see change from the human perspective. And if anything, if you go outside these days, it's just tense. We're extremely inflamed. I don't care what country you live in. We're all experiencing the sensory, like, I see it as...I was not good at chemistry, but one's like, when you heat up molecules and they move really fast, like, that's combustion. And it's about to be summer, so it's about to even be literally hotter. I'm not going to say it's going to get worse.
But I say that to say I do believe there is a degree of hope because not only do I see it, but I also see...I'm connected to communities who are doing work from what I kind of...is stealth and, like, covert. You're not really going to see goodness and kindness in the abundance of negativity and darkness, but it is there. And I also like to say that I educate people every day where it changes...maybe not everyone's going to change in that regard. But as an individual in a network and a system, if one person's changed, the system automatically changes.
And little by little, over time, I think the pendulum will swing back in a place where it's like, oh yeah, no, it really is happening. And I also kind of see it in this mental health crisis. Change comes out of crisis. It's unfortunate, but if we don't have a big enough reason to look at something, then we tend not to fix it, you know, be proactive. I mean, one of my goals is to get from this reactive place into a proactive and preemptive, you know, wellness space for people, but that also does have to be choice.
But I think it really has to start with people understanding and committing to themselves and taking care of themselves, which is why I also am hopeful is because that's a lot easier than trying to get other people to change for you. If you can commit and commit to yourself, and taking care of yourself, and prioritizing you being self-focused, not necessarily selfish because a lot of that gets a bad rap of like, oh, I'm being selfish. We do it a lot out of defense, which is why I think it's not that effective.
And so, like, oh, I'm just going to be selfish. I'm going to do what's best for me. You're also locking...you're doing that out of reaction typically because you're not realizing like, oh, I feel hurt because this person didn't prioritize me, so now I'm not going to prioritize them. I'm going to prioritize me. And what I mean intention and recovery comes down to like, when people hurt you, you still have to choose not to hurt them and not pull away. And so, I think if we can all understand...and it's a tough concept to stay in your lane. It really is. But if we can all try to stay in our lane and focus on taking care of ourselves, that is what I believe is going to make the most impact.
SAMI: And do you feel AI could help with that? Could we use AI? I'm interested how, like, specifically with regards to the tech, could that be part of this?
SARA: Absolutely. I think there's some foundational knowledge that needs to be done and work that needs to be done in each individual before AI can just kind of come in without creating, like, more intense dependency on it. But I know there are agencies here locally. I can't remember the name of...I was trying to remember this earlier. I met them at a networking event recently, but an agency who uses AI to help with social anxiety and role-playing when it comes to situational circumstances and exposure.
So, me as a therapist, I love doing exposure. I, for the most part, am an exposure exercise for some people is, you know, we open up and talk about, like, these things that people don't feel safe to talk about with their general networks. But AI, I've started kind of dabbling in, you know, I have some clients who deal with, you know, some, like, delusional disorders, schizoaffective disorder, where they didn't grow up in families where any of the, like, really important foundational concepts were discussed, or they were shut down. So, they're naturally trained to just stay in their head. And, in turn, you build a distrust with all the thoughts you have in your brain.
And I encourage my clients to have conversations with ChatGPT just to be like, "Hey, what's up? What's going on?" And telling it what it is that they need, to just normalize the communication of being like, okay, I'm a little nervous to go on a date. I don't know what to say. Can you help me with some ideas of what questions to ask to get to know someone? That, I think, is a lot less intimidating sometimes talking with me because my energy is easily transferable. And that can scare some people because I can get quite excited about, like, "Yo, you did that. That's great." And they're like, "Whoa, that's a lot."
SAMI: I'm loving your vibes.
SARA: Oh [laughs].
SAMI: It's good energy. I'm enjoying it.
SARA: Well, thank you. But I have a couple of clients that...talk about an investment, and I've told them this, and I was like, "I am going to pour into you." Because they just never had certain experiences at the right time to build a degree of confidence that would get them to the next place in life, where they realized like, oh, I can do that. Failure is not that bad, and it's different for everyone. But I do think AI can help in that regard.
It also can become a little bit challenging. I had a discussion on this with a colleague of mine who works in cybersecurity, and we were talking about AI and the intersection in relationships and the impact on intimacy in relationships, mostly with heterosexual relationships. But there, yeah, it can go a very different direction than hopeful. And it can cause harm or conflict in some relationships because it's easier to talk to a very structured computer bot than it is to a woman per se. But I think it can help as well to build a foundation for people to get to those points where you can be assertive and reflective in your experiences, build emotional intelligence over time to help relationships.
RÉMY: At thoughtbot, we have worked on projects that implement AI, and we are becoming more familiar with training models. One thing that concerns us is doing this in an ethical and safe way. What tips would you have for people who are actually creating models and driving change in this space?
SARA: I'd say the first thing that comes to my mind, though, and this is kind of going to go into my talk during the conference, how do you know you're connected with your own reality? I think that's the hardest part about the tech world is like, it's the boundary. Your brain does not know the difference between a computer screen and your reality. The biggest difference is your senses. And that's kind of been the...it's what's caused a lot of the problem with tech is that, you know, here we're having this conversation. I can see y'all. I can generally take into account what your environment is like, but I can't experience it the same way as if I was not sitting in the room with you.
And I think that is when you teach people how to activate their own realities, you know, teach them about their body and the somatic work, especially with trauma. When trauma is involved, is you have to know how to activate the here and now and train your brain to know what your reality is or else you're going to get lost in the sauce of, like, everyone else's reality, let alone opinions, but especially in the virtual world.
So, being able to know your sensory activation, how mindfulness is, that's a huge term, honestly. We could unpack that for 30 minutes itself. But that sensory activation is a huge part of mindfulness is being able to experience a thought that can trigger something of a reaction and being able to effectively detach from it without judgment, you know, it's training. It takes a lot of training, but senses are huge, and being able to, I think, ethically venture into that world of, you know, using the virtual space, using AI to train and be effective.
SAMI: Yeah, I want to pick up on something you said before because it kind of scared me [laughs], which I don't mind [laughs] saying that to you, right? Because I've got this fear that probably other people have also considered as well is people say about AI taking jobs. So, as a coder, we know AI is becoming more proficient at coding. Maybe other designers, other people in the tech world have this fear as well so much so I actually mentioned this in a previous podcast.
I taught myself some, like, real physical skills because I thought when AI takes my job completely, well, at least I'll be able to do something. I actually taught myself to silicone a bathroom. And if you know, you have those silicone beads that kind of go around a bathroom, so the water doesn't get in between the grating and the tiles. So, I remember when I was learning it, thinking, well, if AI does take our jobs, at least I'll be able to do this. But that's where my brain goes sometimes.
And then, when you were mentioning about using it in a therapeutic setting, like, oh, well, it can actually be helpful to chat to an AI bot about certain scenarios that you might be trying to work through in therapy. So, I guess the question is twofold. Number one, do you see AI having a big impact in a therapeutic setting and coming in and almost disrupting that industry? And also, what tips do you have for the majority of people who are now concerned that what is life going to look like, and what is it going to be? And will we all have jobs?
SARA: I think what's important is to understand what happens to the individual when fear is at play before we can even get to the bigger question of like, will AI take our jobs? But I'll start from the end. There will be some jobs that are taken by AI. But what you're talking about Rémy is, yes, there is a huge power to know how you can connect with your own life and AI. Even if you have a job that is in tech and can be overrun by AI, you still have value as a human being. However, you're not going to feel that way, one, if you have a lot of fear because we have to understand why you can't connect with that.
But because value is an invariant, to value something, you have to be quite intentional with training your brain to understand value, and you can do that if you know what fear does to your brain, and it's...quite simply, we've all heard it. It's the stress response: fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. So, when you're having a perceived threat, it doesn't mean...external is not the only threat. We threaten ourselves all the time with our own thought process based off of the experiences that we've had and trigger our own fear.
And your brain essentially is like, hold up, no, we're not going any further. There's a risk here. We're going to stop you. So, this is where a lot of people, like, have those moments. I could stare at a wall for, like, 10 minutes, but it's actually, like, almost two hours if I'm stressed out to the point...because I'm processing too much information, but it's also triggering a stress response for my brain. And we just get saturated and stuck in that moment. So, being able to know, okay, this is happening, then we can actually come back online.
So, I use the brain as a computer metaphor quite often. And when we know that we're in that fight or flight response mode, we can in turn engage so that...I actually have an acronym for fear that I'm going to be debuting at this conference. I'll just go ahead and debut it for y'all, a little sneak peek since you guys may or may not be able to be there. So, that fear is...we usually as an acronym, if you've ever heard this, is F everything and run.
And I'm going to define it as the F would be the fight response, fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. So, if you know that's going on, you can address it. The E would be engage. So, engage with your present moment, and that's where your body is, the one thing that tends to be in that present moment. And then, the A is accept. A lot of times we have to accept that we're maybe stuck. We may be at a problem. We may need to take a break. Accepting the things that we can't change in that moment is going to make a big difference on how we come back online on our brains and be able to understand, like, AI is a threat, but it's not going to take over everything, right? And then, the R is redirect. So, redirect to something that is going to change your perception of what the original trigger was.
And so, I think if people can understand how they work and how the brain is actually self-protecting, it's very, like, it's like, whoa, we're not going to let you do something completely destructive. But it cannot distinguish the severity of the threat, let alone can it not...actually, there's a lot of people who've trained their brain to not experience fear. Fear is what is supposed to keep us safe. So, it is just perceiving like, hey, AI could take our jobs, but it's also not giving you the context that you brought up, Rémy, about it's not going to take everything from us. It's actually supposed to be here to help us in [inaudible 36:23]. And it's also dependent on us.
So, if we're creating fear in the AI, then yeah, it's going to learn that, and it, could, I don't know, I can't tell the future in that regard. But we have plenty of things that don't have to be tech-related that AI won't take from us. And a lot of that is the natural world if we can keep it alive and value it enough.
RÉMY: I have one question for you. It might not be very in sync with the train of thought we're having because it's more related to the beginning of the episode. But you mentioned sometimes rebuilding confidence with people and building confidence and building the ability to trust yourself and to make your own good decisions. It feels like, to some extent, it can be rebuilding yourself. How do you deal with such a big action, such a big project? I mean, it's something that could take life to do so.
SARA: That's a great question. And sometimes it will take people's lives. I don't handle the whole rest of their life. I tell people like, "I'm going to give you some foundational things." And I do a lot of training. I'm very direct, which is why I have that therapeutic life consultant of like, I'm going to take my vast amount of experience, things that people are probably not going to experience and help them build a security in themselves and, over time, prepare them for when they deviate from that.
I tell people, like, especially if you have loved ones still living, depression is never going to just leave. The concept...there's no cure. It's being able to be prepared for when things happen in life versus feel completely unprepared. I just came out of a season of grief of, you know, I walked away from a relationship, as well as then trying to still maintain my business, still trying to maintain my clients and those relationships, let alone the relationship with myself, and then put my cat down, you know, like, you know, he was a child. I had him for 14 years. So, like, life is going to continuously happen. So, I'm not trying to figure it all out, but I'm trying to get people back to a point where they can understand how to find security for themselves.
Since mental health has been such a taboo topic for a long time, there is quite a bit of backlog, and that's what we're seeing. I don't know what it looks like in y'alls countries, but here in America, there is this rush of people. I need a therapist. I need to go to therapy. And we're at a shortage. Therapists can't necessarily help all, like, at once. And we also have to maintain our own mental health, or we're not going to be very helpful to people.
But really, it comes down to how you build that security with yourself and know and not anticipate, but be prepared for when there's something else that happens that disturbs your own peace. Because if you have an understanding of what peace looks like for you, and you can't necessarily control it, but you can influence it, and facilitate it in your life, then you have a stronger foundation to be able to endure, you know, potential loss of a loved one, hopefully, no time soon for anyone here, or out, or listening, but it's just the reality.
And that's part of, you know, my story of, I experienced a lot of loss from a young age, and it worked against me for a long time because I had no idea how to process and regulate energy and emotion in my body. And so, what it looked like was me holding on to repressing anger, not having a relationship with the natural emotions that we can't get rid of. You can't get rid of emotions. I wish I could just, you know, vomit them out and just be done with it and be like, okay, cool. We can all be stable. That's just not...that's not going to happen. I think that also is what makes us, you know, a great species and building, you know, great things in this world is emotion.
Tech was built off of passion and emotion. Did it cause some disarray and probably hurt some people in the process? Yeah. But I think we can reduce that from happening if people understand emotional intelligence and not just work, work, work, work, work. It's a new age coming to that. And I've, hopefully, been working on myself enough to be able to sustain helping people understand and shifting over to that new type of perspective of we can't do things the way that we've been doing them. We just can't. It's not sustainable. The human species will suffer from it and the earth will as well.
SAMI: Yeah, thank you so much, and just for bringing that level of transparency and honesty. It resonates with myself, and I'm sure it will help so many other people who are listening. We could talk to you for hours. I mean, there is so much. And some things we just did not have time to get into. But thank you so much for the time that you've given us. And it's been really insightful to look at AI and tech that we work with as consultants at thoughtbot on a daily basis from this perspective and look at it from this angle. If people want to get a hold of you, where would be the best place?
SARA: Finding my website is a big thing. That's just, you know, kind of the portal. So, that's sarawilderlcsw.com. Sara with an out an H. And then, also, venturing into this tech world, I have an app interface now that I have put together to kind of be a centerpiece for mental health resources, not only just, like, hotlines. That information is on my website as well.
But if you want to start doing your own work little by little, you know, having a centralized spot as well as not too much information. There's plenty of stuff you can Google about mental health. But this is vetted by me and organized to a point where they can, you know, one worksheet can make a difference, where you're just reflecting and taking, you know, 10-15 minutes to read through it and see how you can apply it in your life. It's called Power in Perspective.
SAMI: That's great. Definitely, I recommend go and check it out and check out Sara on her website. And if you can get down to that conference, that is, again, North Carolina called CreativeVerse, and you'll have the opportunity to hear Sara in person as well as Fatima from thoughtbot who's also presenting.
If you learned nothing else from today, then just remember: fear has an acronym for F everything and run. I guess that's my big takeaway. You also got a chance to hear about my gaming addiction. No one tell my parents.
And you can find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, you can email us at [email protected]. I always leave you the same challenge, and that challenge is to subscribe. We've got some great guests lined up, and you'll hear about it first if you subscribe. And feel free to leave any comments on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. We do check them all, and they're really helpful.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Check her out at mandymoore.tech. Thanks for listening. See ya.
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Hosts Will Larry and Chad Pytel interview Brock Dubbels, Principal UX and AI Researcher at CareTrainer.ai. Brock discusses how CareTrainer.ai leverages AI to address the current care crisis in elderly populations. He highlights the growing demographic of individuals over 70 and the significant shortage of caregivers, exacerbated by COVID-19. CareTrainer.ai aims to alleviate this by automating routine tasks, allowing caregivers to focus on building meaningful relationships and providing personalized, compassionate care. The platform utilizes AI to manage tasks such as documentation, communication, and monitoring, which helps caregivers spend more time engaging with patients, ultimately enhancing the quality of care and reducing caregiver burnout.
Brock elaborates on the specific tasks that CareTrainer.ai automates, using an example from his own experience. He explains how AI can transform transactional interactions into conversational ones, fostering trust and authenticity between caregivers and patients. By automating repetitive tasks, caregivers are freed to engage more deeply with patients, encouraging them to participate in their own care. This not only improves patient outcomes but also increases job satisfaction and retention among caregivers. Brock mentions the alarming attrition rates in caregiving jobs and how CareTrainer.ai’s approach can help mitigate this by creating more rewarding and relational caregiving roles.
Additionally, Brock discusses the apprenticeship model CareTrainer.ai employs to train caregivers. This model allows new caregivers to learn on the job with AI assistance, accelerating their training and integrating them more quickly into the workforce. He emphasizes the importance of designing AI tools that are user-friendly and enhance the caregiving experience rather than replace human interaction, and by focusing on customer obsession and continuously iterating based on feedback, CareTrainer.ai aims to create AI solutions that are not only effective but also enrich the entire caregiving profession.
CareTrainer.ai (https://www.caretrainer.ai/)
Follow CareTrainer.ai on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/caretraining-ai/).
Follow Brock Dubbels on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/brockdubbels/). Visit his website: brockdubbels.com (https://brockdubbels.com/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
WILL: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry.
CHAD: And I'm your other host, Chad Pytel. And with us today is Brock Dubbels, Principal UX and AI Researcher at CareTrainer.ai, which is transforming health care and caregiving with a human-first approach to artificial intelligence. Brock, thank you for joining us.
BROCK: Hey, thanks for having me, guys. I'm excited to talk about this.
CHAD: Brock, let's get started with just diving into what CareTrainer.ai actually does. You know, so many businesses today are getting started with or incorporating artificial intelligence into their product offerings. And I know that it's been something that you've been working on for a long time. So, what is CareTrainer?
BROCK: Well, CareTrainer is an opportunity in the midst of a crisis. So, right now, we have what's called a care crisis for the elderly populations. If you were to look at the age of the North American population and look at it over the next 10 years, about 65% of our population will be over the age of 70. And right now, we are understaffed in caregiving by almost 20%. Caregivers, especially after COVID, are leaving at about a 40% clip. And enrollment in these care programs is down 9%, but yet that older population is growing.
And in the midst of this, we've just recently had an executive order called the Older Americans Act, which states that we actually have to reduce the ratio of caregivers to patients, and we need to give more humane interaction to the patients in these facilities, in homes and help them to retain their dignity. Many of them lose their identity to diagnosis, and they're often referred to as the tasks associated with them.
And what CareTrainer attempts to do is take many of the tasks out of the hands of the caregivers so that they can focus on what they're good at, which is building relationships, learning and understanding, acting with curiosity and compassion, and demonstrating expert knowledge in the service to caring for patients, either in homes, facilities or even post-acute care.
WILL: You mentioned your hope is to take some of the tasks away from the caregivers. Can you go a little bit deeper into that? What tasks are you referring to?
BROCK: Let's think about an example. My mom was a public health nurse, and she worked in child maternal health. And these were oftentimes reluctant counseling sessions between she and a young mother or a potential mother. And if she were sitting there with a clipboard or behind a computer screen and looking at the screen, or the clipboard, and doing the interview with questions, she would probably not get a very good interview because she's not making a relationship. It's not conversational; it's transactional.
And when we have these transactional relationships, oftentimes, we're not building trust. We're not expressing authenticity. We're not building relationships. It's not conversational. And we don't get to know the person, and they don't trust us. So, when we have these transactional relationships, we don't actually build the loyalty or the motivation. And when we can free people of the tasks associated with the people that they care for by automating those tasks, we can free them up to build relationships, to build trust, and, in many cases, become more playful, expose their own vulnerability, their own past, their own history, and, hopefully, help these patients feel a little bit more of their worth.
Many of these people worked meaningful lives as school teachers, working at the fire department, working at the hardware store. And they had a lot of friends, and they did a lot for their community. And now they're in a place where maybe there's somebody taking care of them that doesn't know anything about them, and they just become a person in a chair that, you know, needs to be fed at noon. And I think that's very sad.
So, what we help to do is generate the conversations people like to have, learn the stories. But more importantly, we do what's called restorative care, which is, when we have a patient who becomes much more invested in their own self-care, the caregiver can actually be more autonomous. So, let's say it's an elderly person, and, in the past, they wouldn't dress themselves. But because they've been able to build trust in a relationship, they're actually putting on their own blouse and slacks now. For example, a certified nursing assistant or a home health aide can actually make the bed while they're up dressing because the home health aide or certified nursing assistant is not dressing them or is not putting the toothpaste on the toothbrush.
So, what we're doing is we're saying, "Let's get you involved in helping with restorative care." And this also increases retention amongst the caregivers. One of the things that I learned in doing an ethnography of a five-state regional healthcare system was that these caregivers there was an attrition rate of about 45% of these workers within the first 30 days of work. So, it's a huge expense for the facility, that attrition rate.
One of the reasons why they said they were leaving is because they felt like they weren't building any relationships with the people that they were caring for, and it was more like a task than it was a care or a relationship. And, in fact, in many cases, they described it as maid service with bedpans for grumpy people [chuckles]. And many of them said, "I know there's somebody nice down there, but I think that they've just become a little bit hesitant to engage because of the huge number of people that come through this job, and the lack of continuity, the lack of relationship, the lack of understanding that comes from building a relationship and getting to know each other."
And when we're talking about taking the tasks away, we're helping with communication. We're actually helping with diagnosis and charting. We're helping with keeping the care plan updated and having more data for the care plan so that nurse practitioners and MDs can have a much more robust set of data to make decisions upon when they meet with this patient. And this actually reduces the cost for the care facilities because there's less catastrophic care in the form of emergency rooms, prescriptions, assisted care, as well as they actually retain their help. The caregivers stay there because it's a good quality of life.
And when those other costs go down, some of the institutions that I work for actually put that money back into more patient care, hiring more people to have more meaningful, humane interactions. And that's what I mean about taking the tasks off of the caregiver so that they can have the conversations and the relational interactions, rather than the transactional interactions.
CHAD: One thing I've heard from past guests and clients that we've had in this space, too, is, to speak more to the problem, the lack of staff and the decline in the quality of care and feeling like it's very impersonal causes families to take on that burden or family members to take on that burden, but they're not necessarily equipped to do it. And it sort of causes this downward spiral of stress and quality of care that impacts much bigger than just the individual person who needs the care. It often impacts entire families.
BROCK: Oh yeah. Currently, they're estimating that family, friends, and communities are providing between $90 and $260,000 worth of care per person per year. And this is leading to, you know, major financial investments that many of these people don't have. It leads to negative health outcomes. So, in a lot of ways, what I just described is providing caregiver respite, and that is providing time for a caregiver to actually engage with a person that they're caring for, teaching them communication skills.
And one of the big things here is many of these institutions and families are having a hard time finding caregivers. Part of that is because we're using old systems of education in new days that require new approaches to the problem. And the key thing that CareTrainer does is it provides a guided apprenticeship, which means that you can earn while you learn. And what I mean by that is, rather than sitting in a chair in front of a screen doing computer-based training off of a modified PowerPoint with multiple-choice tests, you can actually be in the context of care and earning while you learn rather than learning to earn.
CHAD: Well, at thoughtbot, we're a big believer in apprenticeships as a really solid way of learning quickly from an experienced mentor in a structured way. I was excited to hear about the apprenticeship model that you have.
BROCK: Well, it's really exciting, isn't it? I mean, when you begin looking at what AI can do as...let's call it a copilot. I thought some of the numbers that Ethan Mollick at Wharton Business School shared on his blog and his study with Boston Consulting Group, which is that an AI copilot can actually raise the quality of work, raise the floor to 82%, what he calls mediocrity. 82% was a pretty good grade for a lot of kids in my classes back when I was a Montessori teacher.
But, in this case, what it does is it raises the floor to care by guiding through apprenticeship, and it allows people to learn through observation and trial and error. And people who are already at that 82nd percentile, according to Mollick's numbers, increase their productivity by 40%. The thing that we're not clear on is if certain people have a greater natural proficiency or proclivity for using these care pilots or if it's a learned behavior.
CHAD: So, the impact that CareTrainer can have is huge. The surface area of the problem and the size of the industry is huge. But often, from a product perspective, what we're trying to do is get to market, figure out the smallest addressable, minimum viable product. Was that a challenge for you to figure out, okay, what's the first thing that we do, and how do we bring that to market and without getting overwhelmed with all the potential possibilities that you have?
BROCK: Yeah, of course. I start out with what I call a GRITS model. I start out with, what are my goals? Then R, let's review the market. How is this problem being addressed now? I, what are my ideas for addressing these goals, and what's currently being done? And T, what tasks need to be completed in order to test these ideas? And what steps will I take to test them and iterate as far as a roadmap?
And what that allowed me to do is to begin saying, okay, let's take the ideas that I can bring together first that are going to have the first initial impact because we're bootstrapping. And what we need to be able to do is get into a room with somebody who realizes that training caregivers and nursing is something that needs a review, maybe some fresh ideas. And getting that in front of them, understanding that that's our MVP 1 was really important. And what was really interesting is our MVP 2 through 5, we've begun to see that the technology is just exponential, the growth and progress.
Our MVP 2 we thought we're going to be doing a heck of a lot of stuff with multimedia reinforcement learning. But now we're finding that some of the AI giants have actually done the work for us. So, I have just been very happy that we started out simple. And we looked at what is our core problem, which is, you know, what's the best way to train people? And how do we do that with the least amount of effort and the most amount of impact? And the key to it is customer obsession. And this is something I learned at Amazon as their first principle.
And many of the experiences that I brought from places like Amazon and other big tech is, how do I understand the needs of the customer? What problems do they have, and what would make this a more playful experience? And, in this case, I wanted to design for curiosity. And the thing that I like to say about that is AI chose its symbol of the spark really smartly. And I think the spark is what people want in life. And the spark is exploring, and it's finding something. And you see this kind of spark of life, this learning, and you discover it. You create more from it. You share it. It's enlightening. It's inspirational. It makes people excited. It's something that they want to share. It's inventing. It's creation.
I think that's what we wanted to have people experience in our learning, rather than my own experience in computer-based training, which was sitting in front of a flashified PowerPoint with multiple choice questions and having the text read to me. And, you know, spending 40 hours doing that was kind of soul-killing. And what I really wanted to do was be engaged and start learning through experience. And that's what came down to our MVP 1 is, how do we begin to change the way that training occurs? How can we change the student experience and still provide for the institutional needs to get people on the floor and caring for people? And that was our first priority.
And that's how we began to make hard decisions about how we were going to develop from MVP 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 because we had all the big ideas immediately. And part of that is because I had created a package like this back in 2004 for a five-state regional care provider in the Midwest. Back then, I was designing what could only be called a finite game. I'm designing in Flash for web. I'm doing decision trees with dialogue, and it's much like a video game, but a serious game. It's getting the assessment correct in the interactions and embedding the learning in the interaction and then being able to judge that and provide useful feedback for the player.
And what this did was it made it possible for them to have interactive learning through doing in the form of a video game, which was a little bit more fun than studying a textbook or taking a computer-based test. It also allowed the health system a little bit more focus on the patients because what was happening is that they would be taking their best people off the floor and taking a partial schedule to train these new people. But 45% of those that they were training were leaving within the first 30 days. So, the game was actually an approach to providing that interaction as a guided apprenticeship without taking their best people off the floor into part-time schedules and the idea that they might not even be there in 30 days.
So, that's kind of a lot to describe, but I would say that the focus on the MVP 1 was, this is the problem that we're going to help you with. We're going to get people out of the seats and onto the floor, off the screen, caring for people. And we're going to guide them through this guided apprenticeship, which allows for contextual computing and interaction, as we've worked with comparing across, like, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Mistral, Grok, trying these different approaches to AI, figuring out which models work best within this context. And, hopefully, when we walk in and we're sitting with an exec, we get a "Wow," [laughs]. And that's the big thing with our initial technology. We really want a wow.
I shared this with a former instructor at the University of Minnesota, Joe Gaugler, and I said...I showed him, and he's like, "Wow, why isn't anybody doing this with nursing and such?" And I said, "Well, we are," you know, that's what I was hoping he would say. And that's the thing that we want to see when we walk into somebody's office, and we show them, and they say, "Wow, this is cool." "Wow, we think it's cool. And we hope you're going to want to go on this journey with us." And that's what MVP 1 should do for us is solve what seems like a little problem, which is a finite game-type technology, but turn it into an infinite game technology, which is what's possible with AI and machine learning.
WILL: I love, you know, you're talking about your background, being a teacher, and in gaming, and I can see that in your product, which is awesome. Because training can be boring, especially if it's just reading or any of those things. But when you make it real life, when you put someone, I guess that's where the quote comes from, you put them in the game, it's so much better. So, for you, with your teacher background and your gaming background, was there a personal experience that you had that brought out your passion for caregiving?
BROCK: You know, my mom is a nurse. She has always been into personal development. By the time I was in sixth grade, I was going to CPR classes with her while she was [inaudible 19:22] her nursing thing [laughs]. So, I was invited to propose a solution for the first version of CareTrainer, which had a different name back in 2004, which we sold. That led to an invitation to work and support the virtual clinic for the University of Minnesota Medical School, which is no longer a thing. The virtual clinic that is the medical school is still one of the best in the country, a virtual stethoscope writing grants as an academic for elder care.
And I would have to say my personal story is that at the end of their lives, I took care of both my maternal grandmother in her home while I was going to college. And then, I took care of my paternal grandfather while I was going to college. And, you know, those experiences were profound for me because I was able to sit down and have coffee with them, tell jokes, learn about their lives. I saw the stories that went with the pictures.
And I think one of the greatest fears that I saw in many of the potential customers that I've spoken to is at the end of a loved one's life that they didn't learn some of the things that they had hoped from them. And they didn't have the stories that went with all the pictures in the box, and that's just an opportunity missed.
So, I think those are some of the things that drive me. It's just that connection to people. And I think that's what makes us humane is that compassion, that wanting to understand, and, also, I think a desire to have compassion and to be understood. And I think that's where gaming and play are really important because making mistakes is part of play. And you can make lots of mistakes and have lots of ways to solve a problem in a game. Whereas in computer-based training and standardized tests, which I used to address as a teacher, there's typically one right answer, and, in life, there is rarely a right answer [laughs].
CHAD: Well, and not really an opportunity to learn from mistakes either. Like, you don't necessarily get an opportunity on a standardized test to review the answers you got wrong in any meaningful way and try to learn from that experience.
BROCK: Have you ever taken one of those tests and you're like, well, that's kind of right, but I think my answer is better, but it's not here [laughter]? I think what we really want from schools is creativity and innovation. And when we're showing kids that there's just a right answer, we kind of take the steam out of their engine, which is, you know, well, what if I just explore this and make mistakes?
And I remember, in high school, I had an art teacher who said, "Explore your mistakes." Maybe you'll find out that their best is intentional. Maybe it's a feature, not a bug [laughs]. I think when I say inculcate play or inspire play, there's a feeling of psychological safety that we can be vulnerable, that we can explore, we can discover; we can create, and we can share.
And when people say, "Oh, well, that's stupid," and you can say, "Well, I was just playing. I'm just exploring. I discovered this. I kind of messed around with a little bit, and I wanted to show you." And, hopefully, the person backs off a little bit from their strong statement and says, "Oh, I can see this and that." And, hopefully, that's the start of a conversation and maybe a startup, right [laughs]?
CHAD: Well, there are so many opportunities in so many different industries to have an impact by introducing play. Because, in some ways, I feel like that may have been lost a little bit in so many sort of like addressing problems at scale or when scaling up to particular challenges. I think we trend towards standardization and lose a little bit of that.
BROCK: I agree. I think humans do like continuity and predictability. But what we find in product is that when we can pleasantly surprise, we're going to build a customer base, you know, that doesn't come from, you know, doing the same thing all the time that everybody else does. That's kind of the table stakes, right? It works. But somebody is going to come along that does it in a more interesting way. And people are going to say, "Oh."
It's like the arts and crafts effect in industrialization, right? Everybody needs a spoon to eat soup, a lot of soup [laughs]. And somebody can make a lot of spoons. And somebody else says, "Well, I can make spoons, too." "And how do I differentiate?" "Well, I've put a nice scrollwork design on my spoon. And it's beautiful, versus this other very plain spoon. I'll sell it to you for a penny more." And most people will take the designed thing, the well-designed thing that provides some beauty and some pleasure in their life. And I think that's part of what I described as the spark is that realization that we live in beauty, that we live in this kind of amazing place that inspires wonder when we're open to it.
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WILL: You mentioned gamifying the training and how users are more involved. It's interesting because I'm actually going through this with my five-year-old. We're trying to put him in kindergarten, and he loves to play. And so, if you put him around a game, he'll learn it. He loves it. But most of the schools are like, workbooks, sit down; focus, all of those things.
And it probably speaks to your background as being a Montessori teacher, but how did you come up with gamifying it for the trainee, I guess you could say? Like, how did you come up with that plan? Because I feel like in the school systems, a lot of that is missing because it's like, like you said, worksheets equal that boring PowerPoint that we have to sit down and read and stuff like that. So, how did you come up with the gamifying it when society is saying, "Worksheets, PowerPoints. Do it this way."
BROCK: I think that is something I call the adult convenience model. Who's it better for: the person who has to do the grading and the curriculum design, or the kid doing the learning? And I think that, in those cases, the kid doing the learning misses out. And the way that we validate that behavior is by saying, "Well, you've got to learn how to conform. You've got to learn how to put your own interests and drives aside and just learn how to focus on this because I'm telling you to do it." And I think that's important, to be able to do what you're asked to do in a way that you're asked to do it. But I think that the instructional model that I'm talking about takes much more up-front thought.
And where I came from with it is studying the way that I like to learn. I struggled in school. I really did. I was a high school dropout. I went to junior college in Cupertino, and I was very surprised to find out that I could actually go to college, even though I hadn't finished high school. And I began to understand that it's very different when you get to college, so much more of it is about giving you an unstructured problem that you have to address. And this is the criteria under which you're going to solve the problem and how I'm going to grade you. And these are the qualities of the criteria, and what this is, is basically a rubric.
We actually see these rubrics and such in products. So, for example, when I was at American Family, we had this matrix of different insurance policies and all the different things in the column based upon rows that you would get underneath either economy, standard, or performance. And I think it was said by somebody at Netflix years ago; there's only two ways to sell bundled and unbundled. The idea is that there were these qualities that changed as a gradient or a ratio as you moved across this matrix. And the price went up a little bit for each one of those qualities that you added into the next row or column, and that's basically a rubric.
And when we begin to create a rubric for learning, what we're really doing is moving into a moment where we say, "This is the criteria under which I'm going to assess you. These are the qualities that inform the numbers that you're going to be graded with or the letter A, B, or C, or 4, 3, 2, 1. What does it mean to have a 4? Well, let me give you some qualities." And one of the things that I do in training companies and training teams is Clapping Academy. You want to do that together?
WILL: Yeah, I would love to.
BROCK: Would you like to try it here? Okay. Which one of you would like to be the judge?
WILL: I'll do it.
BROCK: Okay. As the judge, you're going to tell me thumbs up or thumbs down. I'm going to clap for you. Ready? [Claps] Thumbs up or thumbs down?
CHAD: [laughs]
WILL: I say thumbs up. It was a clap [laughs].
BROCK: Okay. Is it what you were expecting?
WILL: No, it wasn't.
BROCK: Ah. What are some of the qualities of clapping that we could probably tease out of what you were expecting? Like, could volume or dynamics be one?
WILL: Yeah, definitely. And then, like, I guess, rhythm of it like music, like a music rhythm of it.
BROCK: Okay. In some cases, you know, like at jazz and some churches, people actually snap. They don't clap. So, hands or fingers or style. So, if we were to take these three categories and we were to break them 4, 3, 2, 1 for each one, would a 4 be high volume, or would it be middle volume for you?
WILL: Oh, wow. For that, high volume.
BROCK: Okay. How about rhythm? Would it be 4 would be really fast; 1 would be really slow? I think slow would be...we have this cultural term called slow clapping, right [laughter]? So, maybe that would be bad, right [laughter]? A 1 [laughter]? And then, style maybe this could be a non-numerical category, where it could just be a 1 or a 2, and maybe hands or slapping a thigh or snapping knuckles. What do you think?
WILL: I'm going off of what I know. I guess a clap is technically described as with hands. So, I'll go with that.
BROCK: Okay, so a 4 would be a clap. A 3 might be a thigh slap [laughter]. A 2 might be a snap, and a 1 would be air clap [laughter].
WILL: Yep.
BROCK: Okay. So, you can't see this right now. But let's see, if I were to ask you what constitutes a 12 out of 12 possible, we would have loud, fast, hand-to-hand clap. I think we could all do it together, right [Clapping]? And that is how it works. What I've just done is I've created criteria. I've created gradients or qualities. And then, we've talked about what those qualities mean, and then you have an idea of what it might look like into the future. You have previewed it.
And there's a difference here in video games. A simulation is where I copy you step by step, and I demonstrate, in performance, what's been shown to me to be accurate to what's been shown to me. Most humans don't learn like that. Most of us learn through emulation, which is we see that there's an outcome that we want to achieve, and we see how it starts. But we have to improvise between the start and the end. In a book by Michael Tomasello on being human...he's an anthropologist, and he studies humans, and he studied other primates like great apes. And he talks about emulation as like the mother using a blade of grass, licking it, and putting it down a hole to collect ants so that she can eat the ants.
And oftentimes, the mother may have their back to her babies. And the babies will see the grass, and they'll see that she's putting it in her mouth, but they won't see the whole act. So, they've just [inaudible 33:29] through trial and error, see if they can do it. And this is the way an earlier paper that I wrote in studying kids playing video games was. We start with trial and error. We find a tactic that works for us. And then, in a real situation, there might be multiple tactics that we can use, and that becomes a strategy. And then, we might choose different strategies for different economic benefits.
So, for example, do I want to pay for something with pennies or a dollar, or do I want a hundred pennies to carry around? Or would I rather have a dollar in a game, right? We have to make this decision of, what is the value of it, and what is the encumbrance of it? Or if it's a shooting game, am I going to take out a road sign with a bazooka when I might need that bazooka later on? And that becomes economic decision-making.
And then, eventually, we might have what's called top site, which is, I understand that the game has these different rules, opportunities, roles, and experiences. How do I want to play? For example, Fallout 4 was a game that I really enjoyed. And I was blown away when I found out that a player had actually gone through the Final Boss and never injured another non-player character in the game. They had just done the whole thing in stealth. And I thought that is an artistic way to play. It's an expression. It's creative. It's an intentional way of moving through the game.
And I think that when we provide that type of independent, individual expression of learning, we're allowing people to have a unique identity, to express it creatively, and to connect in ways that are interesting to other people so that we can learn from each other. And I think that's what games can do.
And one of the hurdles that I faced back in 2004 was I was creating a finite game, where what I had coded in decision trees, in dialogue, in video interactions, once that was there, that was done. Where we're at now is, I can create an infinite game because I've learned how to leverage machine learning in order to generate lots of different contexts using the type of criteria and qualities that I described to you in Clapping Academy, that allow me to evaluate many different variations of a situation, but with the same level of expectation for professionalism, knowledge and expertise, communication, compassion, curiosity. You know, these are part of the eight elements of what is valued in the nursing profession.
And when we have those rubrics, when we have that matrix, we begin to move into a new paradigm in teaching and learning because there's a much greater latitude and variety of how we get up the mountain. And that's one of the things that I learned as a teacher is that every kid comes in differently, but they're just as good. And every kid has a set of gifts that we can have them, you know, celebrate in service to warming up cold spots.
And I think that sometimes kids are put into situations, and so are adults, where they're told to overcome this cold spot without actually leveraging the things that they're good at. And the problem with that is, in learning sciences, it's a transfer problem, which is if I learn it to pass the test, am I ever going to apply it in life, or is it just going to be something that I forget right away? And my follow-ups on doing classroom and learning research is that it is usually that. They learned it for the test. They forgot it, and they don't even remember ever having learned it.
And the greatest gift that I got, having been a teacher, was when my wife and I would, I don't know, we'd be somewhere like the grocery store or walking out of a Target, and a couple of young people would come up and say, "Yo, Mr. Dubbs," And I'd be like, "Hey [laughs]!" And they're like, "Hey, man, you remember when we did that video game class and all that?" And I was like, "Yeah, you were so good at that." Or "Remember when we made those boats, and we raced them across the pool?" "Yeah, yeah, that was a lot of fun, wasn't it?" And I think part of it was that I was having as much fun doing the classes and the lessons as they were doing it.
And it's kind of like a stealth learning, where they are getting the experience to populate these abstract concepts, which are usually tested on these standardized choice tests. And it's the same problem that we have with scaling a technology. Oftentimes, the way that we scale is based on conformity and limited variation when we're really scaling the wrong things. And I think it's good to be able to scale a lot of the tasks but provide great variety in the way that we can be human-supported around them.
So, sure, let's scale sales and operations, but let's also make sure that we can scope out variation in how we do sales, and how we do customer service, and how we do present our product experience. So, how do we begin to personalize in scope and still be able to scale? And I think that's what I'm getting at as far as how I'm approaching CareTrainer, and how I'm approaching a lot of the knowledge translation that we're doing for startups, and consulting with larger and medium-sized businesses on how they can use AI.
CHAD: That's awesome. Bringing it back to CareTrainer, what are some of the hurdles or cold spots that are in front of you and the business? What are the next steps and challenges in front of you?
BROCK: I think the big thing is that I spend a good two to three [laughs] hours a day reading about the advances in the tech, you know, staying ahead of the knowledge translation and the possible applications. I mean, it's hard to actually find time to do the work because the technology is moving so fast. And, like I said, we were starting to build MVP 2, and we realized, you know what, this is going to be done for us in a little while. You know, it'd be cool if we can do this bespoke. But why not buy the thing that's already there rather than creating it from scratch, unless we're going to do something really different?
I think that the biggest hurdle is helping people to think differently. And with the elder care crisis and the care crisis, I think that we really have to help people think differently about the things that we've done. I think regulation is really important, especially when it comes to health care, treatment, prescription safety. I think, though, that there are a lot of ways that we can help people to understand those regulations rather than put them in a seat in front of a monitor.
CHAD: I think people respond to, you know, when there's a crisis, different people respond in different ways. And it's a natural tendency to not want to rock the boat, not introduce new things because that's scary. And adding more, you know, something that is scary to a difficult situation already is hard for some people. Whereas other people react to a crisis realizing that we got into the crisis for a reason. And the old ways of doing things might not necessarily be the thing to get us out of it.
BROCK: Yeah, I totally agree. When I run into that, the first thought that comes to my head is, when did you stop learning [laughs]? When did you stop seeking learning? Because, for me, if I were to ever stop learning, I'd realize that I'd started dying. And that's what I mean by the spark, is, no matter what your age, as long as you're engaged in seeking out learning opportunities, life is exciting. It's an adventure. You're discovering new frontiers, and, you know, that's the spark. I think when people become complacent, and they say, "Well, this is the way we've always done it," okay, has that always served us well?
And there are a lot of cultural issues that go with this. So, for example, there are cultural expectations about the way kids learn in class. Like, kids who come from blue-collar families might say, "Hey, you know what? My kid is going to be doing drywall, or he's going to be working fixing cars, or he's going to be in construction, or why does he need to do this? Or why does she need to do that? And, as a parent, I don't even understand the homework." And then, there are the middle-class folks who say, "You know what? I'm given these things. They need to be correct, accurate, and easy to read. And that's my job. And I don't see this in my kids' curriculum."
And then, there are the creatives who say, "Hey, you know, this has nothing to do with where my kid is going. My kids are creative. They're going to have ambiguous problems that they have to come up with creative solutions for." Then you get to the executive class where, like, these elite private schools, where they say, "My kid is going to be a leader in the industry, and what they should be doing is leading groups of people through an activity in order to accomplish a goal."
And those are four different pedagogical approaches to learning.
So, I'm wondering, what is it that we expect from our caregivers? And I've got kind of a crazy story from that, where this young woman, [SP] Gemma, who was a middle school student, I gave her the option, along with my other kids, to either take a standardized test on Greek myths, or they could write their own myth. And she wrote this myth about a mortal who fell in love with a young goddess. Whenever they would wrap and embrace and kiss, a flame would occur.
One day the mother found out and says, "Oh, you've fallen in love with a mortal. Well, here you shall stay. This shall be your penance." And she wrapped her in this thread, this rope, and dipped them in wax so they would be there forever. But then the flame jumped to the top, and that is how candles were created.
And I read that, and I was...and this is, like, you know, 30 years ago, and I still have this at the top of my head. And I was like, "Gemma, that was amazing. Are you going to go to college?" And she says, "No." "No? Really? What are you going to do?" "I want to be a hairstylist." And, in my mind, my teacher mind is like, oh no, no, no, no. You [laughs] need to go to college. But then I thought about it. I thought, why wouldn't I want a smart, skilled, creative person cutting my hair? And, you know, people who cut hair make really good money [laughter].
And the whole idea is, are we actually, you know, empowering people to become their best selves and be able to explore those things? Or are we, you know, scaring them out of their futures with, you know, fear? Those are the big hurdles, which is, I'm afraid of the future. And the promise is, well, it's going to be different. But I can't assure you that it's not going to come without problems that we're going to have to figure out how to solve. And there are some who don't want the problems. They just want how it's always been.
And I think that's the biggest hurdle we face is innovation and convincing people that trying something new it may not be perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. And I think Hans Rosling in Factfulness said it very well. He said, "Things are better than they were before, but they're not great." Can we go from good to great? Sure. And what do we need to do? But we always are getting better, as long as we're continuing to adapt and create and be playful and look at different ways of doing things because now people are different, but just as good.
CHAD: Brock, I really appreciate you stopping by and bringing your creativity, and energy, and playfulness to this difficult problem of caregiving. I'm excited for what the future holds for not only CareTrainer but the impact that you're going to have on the world. I really appreciate it.
BROCK: Well, thank you for having me and letting me tell these stories, and, also, thanks for participating in Clapping Academy [laughter].
WILL: It was great.
CHAD: If folks want to get in touch with you or follow along with you, or if they work in a healthcare organization where they think CareTrainer might be right for them, where are all the places that they can do that?
BROCK: You can reach me at [email protected]. They can express interest on our website at caretrainer.ai. They can reach me at my personal website, brockdubbels.com, or connect with me on LinkedIn, because, you know, life is too short not to have friends. So, let's be friends [laughs].
CHAD: You can subscribe to the show and find notes for this entire episode along with a complete transcript at giantrobots.fm.
WILL: If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected].
CHAD: You can find me on Mastodon at [email protected].
WILL: And you can find me on Twitter @will23larry.
This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
CHAD: Thank you again, Brock. And thank you all for listening. See you next time.
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Host Chad Pytel interviews Monik Pamecha, the Co-Founder and CEO of Toma, a company specializing in AI for the automotive industry. Monik discusses how Toma automates phone calls for car dealerships, enhancing customer service and streamlining interactions. Despite advancements in digital communication, phone calls remain crucial in the automotive sector, and Toma leverages AI to improve these experiences significantly.
Monik shares his journey in the tech industry, detailing Toma's evolution from experimenting with different AI applications to focusing on voice AI. He explains the challenges and successes faced along the way, highlighting how AI technology has matured since his early work with chatbots in 2016. The conversation reveals how Toma's voice AI quickly gained user traction, validating their focus on this innovative technology.
The episode also delves into the practical implementation of Toma's AI solutions in the automotive industry. Monik emphasizes the importance of integrating AI with existing dealership software and the gradual rollout process to ensure effectiveness. He discusses the need for clear communication about AI's role in customer interactions, reflecting diverse responses across different demographics. Monik's insights provide a compelling look at the future of AI in automotive customer service.
Toma (https://www.toma.so/)
Follw Toma on X (https://twitter.com/toma_voice), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/tomavoice/), or Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/tomavoiceai/).
Follow Monik Pamecha on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/monikp/).
Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).
Transcript:
CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And I'm joined today by Monik Pamecha, Co-Founder and CEO of Toma, which provides AI for the automotive industry. Monik, thanks for joining me.
MONIK: Hey, Chad, thanks for having me.
CHAD: Obviously, in fact, as evidenced by the guest list that we've had over the last few months, a lot of companies are either integrating AI into their products or starting new companies. And you've been around doing AI for quite a while now. Tell us about Toma.
MONIK: Yeah. So, Toma automates phone calls for the automotive industry right now, and we build a lot of different AI products as well. It's an interesting market, but one of the leading users of phone calls for doing business. So, a lot of the business, which is buying cars, you know, the first touch happens over the phone, you know, people bringing in their cars for service, getting updates, and all that, like, mostly happens over the phone, even though you have had websites and apps and all of these around.
And to give you, like, an idea of scale, like, there are 290 million cars in the U.S. alone, which is, like, about 90% of the population has at least one car. So, scale is massive, and Toma is making that experience of getting service and just dealing with anything related to automotive, like, 100 times better.
CHAD: So, I would encourage people to go to the website and check it out, because, I have to admit, I was a little skeptical, at first, about how good the phone call could actually be. And I was impressed by how natural it was, how it was able to respond in the video demos that I saw. So, how did you know that this was going to be possible?
MONIK: I think a lot of it comes from our own experiences, I mean, not with automotive, but with technology. So, I've been in tech for a long time. I mean, I started writing code when I was, I think, 11 or 12, a similar story for my co-founders as well. But I've been doing machine learning research as well in the past. In fact, this was in 2016 when I wrote a paper on this as well, and we built a chatbot that was based on generative models. And, at the time, in 2016, it was really funky. Like, Google had come up with something called Sequence to Sequence, and we were using that to train it on a little bit of data that we had, and we had something that kind of worked.
And, at the time, I was thinking that, I mean, when you were working with that, you'd see it, like, go off the rails and, like, do something really stupid. It couldn't even get grammar right. And, at the time, I saw all the holes that I was like, if somebody plugged these, like, you know, this would be phenomenal. Like, this is what it takes for it to work, you know, these are the places, more from a practical experience, right? Like, if you had to take it to production, like, what would you need to fix?
And then, six years later, I see that things actually started picking up, right, like, they actually fixed all those holes. And it came back to me, and I was like, all right, this is the time. You know, those were the issues. They're all fixed. Now you can go ahead and build. So, I think a lot of it came from experience as to like, all right, this is what we should build, or this is why we should build, like, in terms of the technology. But we didn't really arrive at this idea, so to speak, you know, at least as a founding team. It was a lot of pivots.
CHAD: What was the original sort of idea that you said, okay, we're going to start a company to do this?
MONIK: Well, that was very different from this very, very different. So, my co-founder and I, like, most founders, like, the first thing they do is they try to look for problems that they themselves have. And we're like, huh, looks like...what do we have in common? We have some chronic conditions, and we've used diet to, you know, manage them. So, maybe let's build a tool to help, you know, patients manage conditions with, you know, diet recommendations. And we spent six months on that, and it went absolutely nowhere.
Also, I think consumer products are just different. They require a different kind of thinking. But, you know, we were just trying to throw something on the wall and pray it sticks. And, you know, it was honestly pretty miserable because we got banned on a bunch of communities on Reddit and Facebook trying to promote it. And, like, all the people who tried our product they just never came back again, and, you know, things like that when you have something that people don't want, right? So, we see that side.
I mean, and after that, we go ahead and we try to do...I think it was during it, I don't know, like, when you get a sense of, like, something's not going to work, where, like, then we realized maybe we should stick to what we know best, which is, you know, we're both technical. So, maybe we should do something that's, you know, more relying on those skills than something entirely different, which I think Y Combinator calls it founder-market fit. I think that's also very true. Of course, you can, like, build something for a business you know nothing about, but there must be some compatibility.
So, yeah, we started with that, kept on experimenting. And then, I think, at some point, we were so annoyed that we made, you know, a list on Google Sheets. And we're like, all right, let's just, you know, vomit out 10 ideas that we have had, and let's write them all, and let's go after them one by one. Let's spend two weeks until we hit something that, you know, maybe we think has legs. And the third idea or the fourth idea on that was building something with voice AI. And, at the time, even that was, like, just a horizontal platform. That was it. All right, so we go ahead and commit to that.
So, if we go through the list, try the first two or three ideas, I think the first thing was...then we went on the other extreme where we're like, all right, let's do something we do all day long, which is, as engineers, we are on call. So, you know, even at, I don't know, 2:00 a.m. in the night if your system is down, you get a pager on your phone saying, "Get on the computer and fix it." And we're like, how could we make that better? That was the first thing on that list. We spent some time trying to do it and, again, we kind of get that feeling.
I think the more you fail, I guess, the better you get at detecting failure. I don't know about success but failure for sure it works like that. I think the third or the fourth idea was voice AI, and then we go ahead. We hack a prototype over a weekend and then put it out on...again, the communities that we know how to market were, like, Facebook groups and Reddit. And it picks up. Like, within, like, 3 days, we had 200 demo calls set up. And that just blew our minds because having been on the other side, we're like, oh, this is what it feels like when people kind of want something, what you have. I mean, it's still not clear, right? But --
CHAD: And you put it out there as automated voice assistant for businesses?
MONIK: No, actually what we did [laughs], I mean, nobody will want to click that if you put it like that [laughter]. You know, just out of curiosity, I was like, "Hey, you know, I've built this thing. It does this, you know, what do you think? Do you think this has any use for you?" And that's it. Like, people are, you know, messaging me nonstop, like, DMing me that, "Can you please share it with me? You know, I run this business. This might be helpful."
It was, like, more genuine. Like, I was just exploring, but, you know, that was a question that I posed. And that had, like, so many people show up, and they're like, "How about you just give us that and we can make money off of this?" And then, we started, you know, digging deeper, and we're like, oh, okay, it looks like you have so many manual processes and across industries. So, we had, like, some people from healthcare, some people from, like, you know, MLMs, multi-level marketing, so many different industries, optometrists, some in construction.
Anyway, so we're, like, thinking at that point, huh, okay. Maybe there is something here. Again, no mention of automotive, no mention of dealerships, nothing. We had a single dealership then. And I would say this was, like, about six months. I don't even know how many months ago, but, like, a couple of months ago. I think, at the time, is when we applied to Y Combinator as well.
CHAD: So, you applied to Y Combinator with the voice idea.
MONIK: Right. And we put something out there. I forget if it was the healthcare idea or the voice idea, but it's probably one of the two. I mean, that's also the other thing about Y Combinator. I think they don't really focus on ideas as much as they just focus on teams, which I think is probably the best practice. You know, we pivoted again [laughs].
But yeah, so we did voice AI, and then spent some time just trying to do everything, right? Trying to build a horizontal layer for voice, where building assistance for all kinds of businesses. And, you know, one of the businesses, at the time, was a dealership. I always like to think of this as an arranged marriage, where, you know, we have the customer. We kind of work through it --
CHAD: So, you had an actual dealership that you were partnered with as sort of a expert in the industry?
MONIK: Our first customer, right. And they were very progressive dealers, so they're always trying new things. And, at the time, we were working with a bank. We were working with some healthcare locations as well. We had some construction industry... whatnot. And we were going crazy trying to build something because everybody had these different requirements. And then, in practice, like, if you push AI out in the wild, to make it work, you need a lot of things, like deep domain expertise being one of them.
So, that realization is happening, you know, where we're coming to terms with that. And, at the same time, it works really well for the dealership, and they bring another customer. And they're like, "Oh, they also want to use it," and we're like, "Okay, sure. We'll turn it on." Then we do it. And then, it works again. And then, they bring more customers. And then, we're like, wait a minute, you know, like, we're not doing any outreach. We're not pushing out anything, and it seems like customers want it. And then, there are these other places where we're struggling so much.
Like, even with healthcare, you know, the regulations in banking and healthcare they slow down, you know, any sort of, like, AI implementations. So, even that world was very different with the automotive space. And you kind of do more of it and then you're like, oh, okay, looks like there is something here, and then we just decide to double down on that space. And then, we go further deep in and you realize, oh --
CHAD: Did Y Combinator...that can be a difficult decision for founders to make. So, did being in Y Combinator help you sort of give you the push to make that kind of bold decision?
MONIK: At least from our experience, it's always been that they're, like, get to the truth very quickly, whatever it is, and then make a decision. Do not delay it. I think we were, in fact, slow to do that. I think they were probably pushing people to do it more because we saw companies pivot in our batch, like, two times, three times right before demo day, which is the end of the program. Like, two weeks before, they just completely changed the company, and that's completely okay.
CHAD: So, how does an implementation actually happen? How does it roll out to a new customer?
MONIK: I mean, this is also very new, right? I think as you come across new customers, you have to adapt the process. But the essence of it is that you first have some data to start, which is, for example, for us, we work with a bunch of call recordings because a lot of our customers are already recording a lot of their calls. So, that gives you, like, some data as to what the experience is like today. Then the next thing is you get an idea of what you know your customers want the experience to be like. And then, you're basically now figuring out the delta between the two.
And then, you're configuring the AI agents, making sure, testing it. And then, you have, like, a period of, like, a week or so where you get through all of that. Then you work through integrations with existing softwares. That also, by the way, is another, like, I would say automotive is a sleeping giant. Like, an auto dealership, on average, like, per month will be spending $50, 000 on software.
CHAD: Wow.
MONIK: Because the whole business runs on software—everything starting from sales, inventory, parts, service, everything, repair orders—all of it comes through that.
CHAD: Now, is there a single common platform that a lot of dealers are using?
MONIK: Unfortunately, no. There are some major players; CDK Global is one of them, which actually was hacked recently. And it's in, like, over 15, 000 dealerships, and all of them shut down.
CHAD: Wow.
MONIK: Like, they just couldn't do any business, and they had to come up with creative workarounds. So, it was pretty painful, kind of, like, a COVID, you know, COVID moment for them. And then, yeah, we've been trying to help our dealers, whoever used that software, to, you know, again, come out with workarounds, where the AI is actually capturing all the information. And, you know, instead of dumping it into that system, it's, you know, finding workarounds on how to get it to our dealers. But yeah, so you integrate with them. That is, like, another major step. And they're, you know, they're not the most tech-forward companies so, you know, that can be a little challenging.
CHAD: Right. So, they use a lot of software, but they're not necessarily tech for...they probably don't have big IT departments and that kind of thing. And then, the users are probably non-technical.
MONIK: Correct. Yeah. The thing about dealers, I think, is that they're so plugged into the business, like, they know everything that is happening in the business. Everybody knows what the bottom line looks, what really will move the needle, what is a good customer experience. They may not be technical, but I don't think it even matters. That's the thing.
But yeah, we were talking about, like, the process, so it takes a couple of weeks So, you do, you know, you get all the information from them as to what needs to be done. You integrate into the systems. And then, the next thing that you do is you start slowly, where, for example, when we start taking phone calls for them, we initially start with off hours and overflow. So, when nobody's able to pick up a phone call, we get the phone calls. And that's how you get, like, some training data at the beginning in a safe manner.
And then, as the volume increases, you know, you get more confident, and you roll it out to a larger audience. But I think the key thing here is it has to be a gradual process because, even for the customer, it's something so new, like, to have a full-fledged conversation. Like, you can have a phone tree where it's, like, press one; press two. You're used to that kind of stuff, and that's been around for 15 years, and it still is, you know. And it is not the most natural thing, but it continues to exist. So, this is the next, you know, natural evolution of that interface where it's more free-flowing and, you know, less annoying.
CHAD: Do all of your customers...when the AI agent answers, does it say it's an AI agent?
MONIK: I mean, our recommendation is to always say that. I mean, it's up to the customer, eventually, if they want to say that or not. And, in fact, it is pretty interesting. Demographics make a huge difference. Like, we're live in, you know, all the states, not all but I would say, like, all the major states. And the way people behave with AI agents is so different, you know, Florida, and Michigan, and California, like, we see the call quality. We see the metrics. We see how annoyed people are or how happy they are and things like that. The way they talk is so different.
And one of the parameters in that is actually, you know, letting them know that it is an AI or not as well. So, we tweak that based on, you know, where we are. But for the most part, we always say that because we want to set the expectations, right? Because, initially, when we didn't, the most popular question on the call was like, "Are you a human?"
CHAD: [laughs]
MONIK: And the fact that people are asking it was also pretty insane, right?
CHAD: Right. They could sort of tell that something was different.
MONIK: Yeah, if you have, like, a long enough conversation because, obviously, it's not human, right? And then, you go, like, five turns into the conversation, and then you realize, okay, it sounds like a human, like, you know, it's speaking pretty quickly. It's giving me the kind of answers I want. But, like, this thing is strange because, you know, humans have a personality now.
Like, with AI, like, a lot of the systems, I mean, you can build personality into it, but it still doesn't have a personality, like, the truth is still that. And it does show up, you know, in interesting ways. And, of course, there can be, you know, some sort of mechanistic issues, you know, like, whatever, right, like, what the customer is really used to and then what you actually say. I think the best practice is to almost always declare, like, it's an AI. And that has improved call quality significantly.
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CHAD: Did you train your own models?
MONIK: Yeah, we collected enough data to be able to do that, and we have trained a lot of different components and different models. So, when you think of it, there's not, like, one model that does the whole thing. You have, like, a lot of these small, medium, and large models that do different parts. So, the voice and speech are, let's say, two components.
I think the brain of the agent is really the thing that needs the most amount of training because, you know, text to speech and voice, I mean, they have, like, you know, some limits and then, some, you know, business return. Like, after some point, like, there's not really much value to be gained there because if you can transcribe everything, you know, to a certain level of accuracy, all the regions change, you know, accents change. You can always improve. Then it's just expanding scope.
But really, with the brain of the agent, you have multiple different models that actually interact with each other, and they're not just LLMs or generative models. You have a lot of different types of things that are going. You know, you're looking up information. You are, you know, validating something. You're making sure if, you know, this is compliant with what, you know, your company's tone is, all of these happening at the same time. And then, these are the different things that you actually really need to train because that's so specific to, you know, the type of business that is happening.
CHAD: So, are you also doing your own hosting of the models, or are you using a cloud provider for that?
MONIK: Yeah, we use cloud providers. I think having a small team it's insane. I mean, you can host custom models on a lot of these providers now. And then, a lot of them even offer services for you to, like, train and, you know, they take care of the infrastructure as well. I think it's a good thing to rely on it if you're lean and small. There's only so much a few people [chuckles] can do and focus on.
CHAD: What are you most focused on right now, either from a business or a product perspective, or, you know, where's your area of biggest risk?
MONIK: Of course, there is always, you know, risk of competition. And I guess the real question is, like, where...a lot of popular AI companies get asked this as well, right? Like, what is your moat, right? And then, I mean, I think that is the most obvious risk, right? Where, like, what is stopping anybody else from doing what you're doing, right? And there are certain parts of it, which, you know, you can de-risk. Like, having data and having proprietary data is, like, one of the biggest factors in this, right, of de-risking this.
I mean, there's also like, you know, the risk of, let's say, especially in our industry, is, like, taking technology to an industry where, you know, consumers are not pro-technology. You know, they don't want to jump at the best thing that there is, right, especially customer service generally suffers from that, right? Like, people anytime they hear a bot or something and they're like, "Ah, representative agent." So, there's, like, some underlying risk in, you know, human tendencies as to what they want.
But, again, to think about it, like, you know, IVRs, which are these interactive voice response systems, they've been around for so long. Nothing about it is natural. It is completely alien to how we interact, but they've been around for so long. So, a lot of times, like, this innovation is actually pushed down from the business to the consumer and not the other way around. It may not be the best experience. It's getting there.
So, it's that battle between the two, which I think can delay implementations. You know, some people, like, one of our customers, at one point, we went through the entire deal. And I think the owner of the dealership group just said, "I don't believe in AI." Now, you know, like, it's pretty hard, right? Like, you have the metrics. You have the numbers. You're generating value, but the belief is strongly held. And then, at that point, you know, there's nothing you can do.
CHAD: Do you know why they were saying that? Was it like, I don't believe it as in I don't think it can do it, or I don't believe in it as in, like, it's against my ethics, or something like that?
MONIK: I feel like it's probably because they've been burned by past experiences of AI. Like, I think chatbots have been around for so long, and a lot of people in the automotive industry have used them. Now, they used to suck. And as I remember in 2016 as well, you know, over the few years that came, like, it was still pretty terrible. So, I think it's some muscle memory from that.
And then, also, I think AI has been hyped a lot, and I feel like people just generally discount anything that is hyped. And the opinion is that let's just wait for the dust to settle, and then we'll just pick the winners. So, it's also possible, right? On the adoption curve, like, there's you just hit some people who are probably not on the early or even the mid, right? Maybe on the tail end, which I guess is completely fine and true for any tech adoption cycle.
CHAD: And it's true for any product that you're...this is not just an AI company problem. I think it's a startup thing, you know, to find the early adopters and then to move on from there. But you need those early adopters, those champions who are willing to do something new before other people.
MONIK: Exactly. And, I mean, yeah, it's just surprising to me how many early adopters, even in...like, there are almost early adopters in every industry. Every business has people who just want to see something, you know, they're just excited about it, like, they're willing to take the risk. And sometimes I'm not even sure why. But, you know, there's just that element of thrill, and then also, you know, beating the market to it and things like that.
And once you feel it, you understand the adoption curve initially. Because when you see customers, you see, ah, I see every dealership. Everybody should use us. I mean, as a naive founder, I think that that's what I used to think initially. And then, you know, over time, you get a sense of like, all right, you know, these are the types of customers that you should go after. These are the people who you should talk to first. And you build that kind of muscle as a founder and, yeah, new learnings.
CHAD: So, you started with the voice assistant. But are you moving into providing other AI-driven solutions for the automotive industry?
MONIK: Right. So, as we work with more dealers, we found out, you know, more areas that can be improved and, you know, gaps in, for example, communication. I think a lot of, like, quality of service really comes from how you can, you know, communicate with your customer. And it's not just about...you could do a good job and, you know, you could just completely destroy your, you know, quality scores because you didn't communicate well enough.
And you could do a bad service and still have a great, you know, service, you know, experience by communicating well. So, I think a lot of it is key to communication, and that's our focus: using AI to make it better. Voice is one channel. There are other channels as well. And there are a lot of, you know, communication gaps within, you know, our customers, you know, business set up as well. So, we try to bridge that gap.
CHAD: So, since you're focused on communication then, you're probably still leveraging generative AI solutions.
MONIK: Oh, a lot of it is, you know, improved by that technology. Like, so I always think, like, great products usually bring in two things, right? One is a necessary evil. Let's say, you know, something that has to be done like a phone system, for example, like, you need people to call in. You need to set up all the numbers, phone trees, whatever, routing. And then, there is AI, which makes that whole process easier.
So, I think good products usually have these two things combined, where it lets you do one nasty thing, which, you know, obviously, everybody else can do in a different way. And then, there's this one exceptional thing that you can do. And then, [inaudible 27:04] together, and it makes, like, a great offering for the business. I think that's what we're working towards.
CHAD: What do you think about the way things are right now, in general? I do think that there are some companies that are saying, "Well, that great thing is the AI," but they're not necessarily solving a problem that needs to be solved in that way.
MONIK: Yeah. I mean, I think to that part, right, the hype is real. Even in my mind, I just discount, like, 40% of the things that people say about AI now. Like, I mean, I would say it's more true than not, like, 60%, sure, but, like, a rough number in my mind is just 40%, and people, like, exaggerate. But, I mean, that's not because, I guess, they're lying. It's because they're, you know, hopeful, right? Because nobody knows, like, in practice. Like, I mean, now that we've done, you know, hundreds and thousands of minutes of AI phone calls, like, that has, like, you know, added to my judgment. And I kind of know, like, you know, what is possible and what is not with even the most cutting-edge stuff there is.
I think a lot is possible. But it's unfair to say that, oh yeah, it's as good as a human, for example, right? Like, in certain use cases, that just is not true. It's a different paradigm. It's just a different design interaction that has never existed before. There's nothing human about it. You can try to force it to be as human as you want but then it is forced human. Like, it is still not natural because it just isn't.
CHAD: So, I'm getting the sense then that that might not be your north star. That might not be what you're shooting for.
MONIK: Yeah, not at all, no. At the end of the day, a tool should drive business outcomes, right? And then, to drive business outcomes, you got to understand what your customer and their users want, for example. You know, I can imagine a world where people will say, you know, when a human picks up the phone, and they're like, "No, I don't want to talk to you. Can you transfer me to a, you know, the virtual agent?" Like, it will happen, right? And it won't be natural. Like, I do not think it will be natural, and it will be different.
Because imagine, like, a human having access to all the information at the same time. Like, how would they behave, right? Like, humans behave in a serial manner, and then there is, like, some simplicity to some interactions and some complexity to others. That's not the case with, you know, all the information you have. Like, I already know, for example, if you call me, right, and I'm an AI agent for your business, I know so much about you already, right?
Like, I'm not going to act the way, you know, an agent would act who's, like, now pulling up something on the screen, and they're like, "Give me a moment," and then they're reading through your stuff. Like, I already know all the issues you've had, all the conversations you had in the past. So, now I know what's exactly wrong, and, in fact, I'll give you the answer straight up, right? Because I can kind of get ahead and figure out what you really want.
CHAD: There's an example in one of the example videos I watched or, actually, I was trying to think, would I ever want to not talk to a person, right? There's an example in one of your videos where you can see the person does exactly what I do on a call. They say their email address is their first name dot last name at gmail.com. And that's not exactly what mine is, but it's like that.
And I say that, and most of the people that I talk to on the phone when I say that they...and I think it might be because they're not on a screen that has my first name and my last name on it anymore. Oftentimes, they don't remember my name, or can't see it, or can't understand what I'm saying. But the AI has all the information, and it understood what you were saying, and it just gets it instantly.
MONIK: Exactly. Another example of that, right? Let's say, like, you called six times, right? I mean, usually what happens in call centers often is that, like, you get thrown around, different agents pick up, and then maybe the data comes there. I've heard that, like, on existing recordings of, like, humans, where it's like, "I'm calling for the sixth time. Like, do you need me to repeat the same thing again?"
And then, they go through the same flow again because that is the policy, for example. And then, they're just so annoyed. Like, with AI, there's no such thing. It's just, you know, one model that's consistent, that's listening to everything. And it's like, even before you say...like, "I see you've called for the sixth time. You know, I'm really sorry that this is happening," and, you know, whatever. Just simple things like that.
CHAD: I'm just thinking about those experiences that I've had with customer service that have been that. And, yeah, that's why I think that this is really, you know, has a lot of potential. So, how do you sort of, you know, critics of AI will often point to, like, putting people out of work, right? How do you think about that?
MONIK: Yeah. I always, like, to pin it down to, like, evidence, and, I think, at this point, I have enough to talk about this. I think what we've seen with our technology is that a lot of it leads to repurposing of existing talent. So, for example, there are, you know, business development companies that dealerships rely on for inbound and outbound calling.
Now, when we free their time up from inbound, like, that's what we focus on right now, and take off all the mundane tasks, like, the agents that they have are now free to do a lot more outbound, which actually drives more sales or, you know, gives a better experience because, you know, people are checking up on them and saying, "Okay, how was your service a week later," right? And the person feels really good. And if there's any problem, they address it, whatever, right?
So, I think there is more stuff to do than humans will ever be able to do, and our desires have no end. We will continue to pursue that. So, as you free up something...it's like a race which has no finish line. You get a little bit of lead, but that doesn't mean anything because now you still got to keep going and keep going, and that's what we've seen. So, you know, with service advisors, for example, who would get phone calls in the service department of the dealership all the time, now they don't get calls anymore, right? But they're able to spend more time with people in the store. So, they're actually able to upsell more.
So, this kind of efficiencies that you drive, like, they take off the stuff that, you know, you don't want to do all the time and is repeatable to some extent, and then you free them to do things that they couldn't have done before. So, it really is, you know, realizing that there is this endless amount of work that always needs to be done. And here, I took this off your plate, but you still have all this work to do. So, it's just repurposing of, like, talent that's been happening again and again.
And, I mean, there is, of course, that's not to say that there is not going to be a loss of job opportunities, things like that, because, you know, it's just part of creative destruction as it is called, right? Where anything new will create some sort of disruption and then, you know, destroy certain things, but then it creates more, you know, on a net basis. That's happening, yeah.
I mean, if you think about it, like, I mean, I remember I grew up in India. This was, like, 15 years ago, I don't know, maybe 10 years ago, too. There was somebody who would sit in the elevator, and their only job was to press a button. If you think about it, right? Like, I mean, is that job like, you know, what value is it driving? Of course, like, to some extent, right? And then, they came up with these elevators where you could punch in the numbers, you know, exact floors right at the beginning, and you just walk into the right elevator, and that's done.
So, I mean, that job obviously does not exist anymore or does not need to exist anymore, right? But, I mean, I don't know if anybody else in the world has an opinion on that job existing, for example. Like, it's just, over time, when we look back, it just seems, like, obvious that, you know, why were we doing that? We should be doing this other thing. So, I think it's just movement.
CHAD: Right. Yeah. I think it is uncomfortable in the moment but, you know, there is a certain trend to the world, aside from AI, aside even from technology, specifically of progress. And, you know, over time, positive comes from that, but that doesn't mean that there's not pain in the meantime.
MONIK: There is, yeah. Definitely, there is pain. And I think the real reason why people feel this a lot is sometimes, like, even I make that mistake myself of viewing yourself as, like, stationary in terms of, like, skills and learning. It's like, you are everything you've learned up till now. And, okay, if what I knew up until now is not going to be relevant tomorrow, then what am I going to do?
But the thing is that everybody has the capability to learn and improve, and, in fact, even that gets easier and easier with time because technology makes that easier. And then, people are able to do more things than they could do before, learn faster, for example. And it's important to not forget that we have that ability. You know, we can always change and improve, and, in fact, knowing so much makes us even better at knowing more. And that's why we've been able to adapt to every change in history so far; we always have.
You know, so that fear is natural. But I think, over time, when we all look back and we're like, oh my God, why were we doing that? You know, like, and we will all be doing different kinds of things. Like, that is guaranteed. That is going to happen. But that fear still exists, and I think that is what causes the pain. It's the anxiety of it. Like, really? Of course, you have to change, you know, tracks. That is very real, but it's not as painful as fear makes it.
CHAD: Well, speaking of growing, and changing, and improving, you mentioned that, you know, you and your co-founder are both technical. How have your roles changed as the company has progressed, and what have you learned [chuckles], and have you settled into any sort of roles?
MONIK: Yeah. So, I'm the CEO. My co-founder is a CTO. We both used to write code at the beginning. Now only one of us writes code.
CHAD: And I'm guessing it's not you [laughs].
MONIK: Yeah, it's not me. Although I do miss it sometimes, but, actually, to be honest, I don't.
CHAD: [laughs]
MONIK: I feel so happy to have found that, I mean, to have realized that. But yeah, I think, basically, I think now that I understand at least B2B business to some extent, I think you always need to have a clear split of, like, build and sell. And then, of course, there's all this additional stuff that you need to do, but I think these two distinctions need to be absolutely crystal clear because both are full-time jobs.
And more than that, you need, like, owners of those spaces, and it's very hard to jump between the two. I mean, if they are solo founders, I mean, it's incredible how they do it if they're able to do both, or they rely on AI, or they rely on, you know, consultants, or contractors, or whatever. But I think those are the two roles.
And it came, I mean, I think it was just a natural progression. It's, like, when there's more work than people, I mean, that's usually a good place to be, I think, and that's how you know something is going well. You automatically assume natural roles. Because it's in that moment of, oh no, my list is, like, growing, like, quicker than you know, something, and then I need to jump in, and then you pick up the most natural and important things to you.
And then, even if you're not good at, like, you don't have an option. You have to get better at it. For example, selling, like, I never did any sales, ever. Like, I was doing machine learning and distributed systems and whatnot. But I've come to now realize that, okay, that is something that I enjoy that I think I can learn and get better at. And everything I did before, actually, even the engineering mindset helps with sales because it's just a process. So, we kind of assumed our roles when we just had too much on our plate, and we're like, "All right, you'll do this. I'll do this. Okay, fine." And then, we just talk about it, and then, all right, we keep doing it, and then now it just becomes a routine.
CHAD: Yeah, how has your team grown?
MONIK: Well, we've been two of us now, and we're hiring for a software engineer right now. So, we've been very lean. And I think...and this is also to something that Sam Altman said. I think it was him or I don't know who said that but, you know, you'll probably see the first one-person billion-dollar company.
CHAD: Yeah, I think it was, yeah.
MONIK: And I think there is some truth to it. Like, I don't know about billion, but, like, maybe a couple of million, a couple of hundred million, like, that might happen sooner. Because we've always tried to stay very, very lean, and I think we've relied on using technology wherever possible. But yeah, that's not to say...we still need people to build. And we are looking for a software engineer because, at some point, there's only so much we can do.
CHAD: Yeah. So, what would make someone a good fit for your team in that software engineering position? What are they coming to the table with?
MONIK: Everything, I wish. No, I mean, there are some exceptional people. And I think that's exactly what we're looking for is engineers with a founder's mindset because a founder's mindset is always like, you know, give us all the information. We'll make the decisions and figure out like, you know, what needs to be done. And someone who's, of course, exceptionally skilled at technology, at writing code, at building software, but also at understanding like, you know, what to build. I think that is, like, a killer combination and that is what differentiates, like, a great extraordinary engineer from anybody else.
CHAD: Well, especially since it's going to be the second developer [chuckles], you're going to have high needs and expectations for that.
MONIK: And with startups, right? It's always a little bit of chaos, and it's people who thrive in that chaos. And that's the thing, right? I've worked in, like, a bunch of startups that actually went on to become unicorns. I worked at Turing.com, which I think is...$4 billion, something like that now. But when I joined, there were, like, you know, just 10 people. And every company has problems, you know. And there's always this chaos that ensues, you know, at every stage. But there are some type of people who, like, thrive in that. They just love it. And there are some people who complain about it.
I think the ones who complain about it lose that opportunity to grow, and they don't have the mindset to see opportunity in it. And I think those are the people who are absolute amazing, you know, future founders, you know, or even, like, great founding engineers are employees like that because they like that challenge, you know. It's like, this is wrong. Let me go fix it.
CHAD: Right. And the reverse is also true. There's a point in a company's life cycle where they need a different kind of person that is more, like, stable [laughs].
MONIK: Well, I don't know. I think I disagree with that. I think, I mean, that's when the company, you know, plateaus. Like, if you bring in more people like that, you...really, like, what is a company? It's just a collection of really smart people. The fact that OpenAI is able to do what Google cannot over the span of six years is because they just do not hire people, you know, of certain caliber, certain mindset. They just keep them out. Again, that's their policy, or even some larger companies. I think the idea is to keep that mindset going and going. It is tiring, right? But it is what drives innovation. Like, that's just the nature of it.
CHAD: Well, if what you're describing sounds like someone who's listening, or if someone's in the automotive industry and wants to learn more, where can they do that?
MONIK: Yeah, they can reach out to me, you know, my email is [email protected]. So, they could get to us.
CHAD: And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Mastodon at [email protected].
Monik, thank you so much for joining me and sharing the story with me.
MONIK: Thanks, Chad. This was great.
CHAD: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.
Thanks so much for listening and see you next time.
AD:
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More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions. -
Founder Amy-Willard Cross discusses the mission and operations of Gender Fair, the first consumer rating system for gender equality. Gender Fair aims to measure and promote gender equality within consumer-facing companies by utilizing data and the UN Women Empowerment Principles. Amy highlights the importance of transparency and data-driven insights to create social change, emphasizing that gender equality in corporate practices benefits not just women but overall fairness in the workplace. Gender Fair evaluates companies across five categories: women in leadership, employee policies, diversity reporting, supplier diversity, and philanthropy for women.Amy also shares how Gender Fair has incorporated technology to increase its impact, including an app and browser extension that allow consumers to easily access company ratings on gender equality. These tools enable users to make informed purchasing decisions based on a company's gender equality practices. The app features functionalities like barcode scanning and logo recognition to provide real-time information about products. Amy emphasizes the significance of making gender equality data accessible and actionable for consumers, believing that collective consumer power can drive corporate accountability and fairness.Throughout the conversation, Amy discusses the challenges and successes of building Gender Fair, the importance of leveraging economic power for social change, and the role of technology in facilitating gender fairness. She also touches on the broader impact of Gender Fair's work in promoting fair business practices and the potential for future expansions, such as a B2B database for procurement. Gender Fair (https://www.genderfair.com/)Follow Gender Fair on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/begenderfair/), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/GenderFair/), or Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/genderfair).Follow Amy-Willard Cross on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-willard-cross-genderfair/).Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/).Transcript:CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel, and with me today is Amy-Willard Cross, the Founder of Gender Fair, the first consumer rating system for gender equality. Amy, thank you so much for joining me.AMY-WILLARD: Well, I'm very happy to be talking to robots, giant and small. CHAD: [laughs] We'll try not to smash into each other too much on this show. I think we probably have a lot to learn from each other rather than conflicting. AMY-WILLARD: I think so. CHAD: Let's just get started by digging in a little bit to what Gender Fair actually is in terms of what we mean when we say a consumer rating system for gender equality.AMY-WILLARD: It's about data. So, I was originally a journalist. I've written for a living my whole life: books, magazines, articles [laughs], you know, radio shows. I wanted to do something to promote equality in the world. And I realized that data is one way that you can want to have commercial value. Data has value that isn't, like, just blah, blah, blogging, and also, data can create social change.So, I decided to do something like, you know, we know fair trade has created great change as has, you know, marine stewards certified. And also, I was inspired by something that the Human Rights Campaign, the LGBTQ organization, does, which is called the Guide to Corporate Equality. So, our goal is to measure how companies do on gender and then share that with the public.And I didn't just make this up. We use a set of principles called the UN Women Empowerment Principles, which look at eight different sort of areas of an organization. And so, we created metrics that are based on these UN Women Empowerment Principles and also based on what is findable in the public record. We rate consumer-facing public companies, you know, like Unilever, Procter & Gamble, the shampoos that you use, the cars that you buy, the airplanes you ride on. And we look at five major categories, such as, like, women in leadership. We look at employee policies like parental leave, and flex time, part-time, summer Fridays. I'll be curious to know what you do at Giant Robot. I bet you have good ones. And then, we also look at diversity reporting. Our company is upfront with their attempt to bring more diversity into the workforce and also supplier diversity. I don't know, are you familiar with supplier diversity, Chad? CHAD: I am because we often are a supplier, so...AMY-WILLARD: You are. So, when they ask you if you're diverse...but one way companies, especially the big companies that we rate on this public database, they can make a big impact by trying to buy from women and minority-owned businesses, right? When procurement spending is huge. That's a metric that people may not know as well, but it's one that I would encourage every business to undertake because it's not that expensive. And you could just intentionally try to move capital into communities that are not typically the most rewarded.The last category that we measure is philanthropy for women, and that's important. People say, "Well, why do you measure philanthropy?" One, because the amount of philanthropy that goes to women and girls is 1.5% of all donations, and it used to be 1.8. So, pets get more money than women. I don't know how that makes you feel, Chad, but it doesn't make me feel very happy. I mean, I suppose if you're Monster Beverage and you don't have any women clientele, one, it's okay if you don't score well on your gender metrics; just meet the basic fairness. But maybe Monster Beverage doesn't have to donate to the community of women. But if you're making billions of dollars a year selling a shampoo, I would sort of think it's fair to ask that there's some capital that goes back the other way towards the community of women. So, that's the measurement. So, we could do it...and we do it for small companies like yours, too. I imagine your company would do well from the little bit I've talked to people on your staff. It sounds like you have a lot of women in leadership. And I don't know your policies yet, but I'm sure you...I bet in Massachusetts I know you have parental leave anyway in the state, but you're a more progressive state.But I think this is something that all of your listeners can benefit from is putting a gender lens on their operations because a gender lens is a fairness lens. And it includes usually, you know, this includes people who are not just all the same men, White men. So, it helps all businesses sort of operate in a more fair way to put a gender lens on their operations. And it's not hard to do. CHAD: So, one of the things that jumped out at me, in addition to just the Gender Fair mission, as I was learning about Gender Fair, is that you have an app and a browser extension. And so, that's part of why you're on the show, not only do we care about the impact you're having.AMY-WILLARD: That's right. Yeah [laughs].CHAD: But you're a tech company. Did you always know as you got started that you were going to be making an app and a browser extension? AMY-WILLARD: Well, yes, that was the beginning because you have data. You have to make it used. You have to make it available, right? Personally, I like to see it on packages. But yes, we've had two iterations of the app, and I'm sure it could always get better and better. The current one has a barcode scanner and, also, it can look at a logo and tell you, "Oh, this soda pop is not gender fair. Try this soda pop, which is gender fair." And it can make you a shopping list and stuff like that. But, you know, tech is only good if people use it, so I hope they do. I mean, the idea is making it more accessible to people, right? I would like to have it as a filter, some easy tech. We've talked to big retailers before about having a filter put on online shopping sites, right? So, if I can choose fair-trade coffee, why can't I choose gender-fair shampoo?I like it when people can use technology to create more fairness, right? If this is a great benefit to us if technology can take this journalism we do and make it accessible and available and in your hand for someone, you can do it in the store, for Pete's sake. You could just go on the store shelf, and that's pretty liberating, isn't it? When you think of it. It should be easy to know how the companies from which you buy are doing on values that you care about. So, I never really thought of it as a tech. I wish it was better tech, but, you know, I'd need millions and millions of dollars to do that. CHAD: [laughs] Had you ever built in any of your prior companies, or had been directly responsible for the creation of an app?AMY-WILLARD: No, but I did actually once when I worked at the major women's magazine in Canada, I did hire the person who created the first online sort of magazine in Canada, and she made money, so I felt good about that. I plucked her from...she was working as sort of tech support at the major...what do you call those? Internet providers in Canada. But no, I had not, and so I relied on experts. I had a friend who was on the board of Southby, and he helped me find a tech team. I went through a few of them and, you know, it's hard to find. Like, where do you go and find people who will build something for you when you're a novice, right? As a journalist, I don't really know anything about building technology, and I certainly wasn't about to start at my age. It was definitely a voyage of discovery and learning, and I don't think I really learned much coding myself. CHAD: That's okay. AMY-WILLARD: That's okay [laughs]. CHAD: But was there something that sort of surprised you that you didn't anticipate in the process of creating a digital app? AMY-WILLARD: Oh gosh. Well, you know, of course, it's difficult, and there's lots of iterations, and there's lots of bugs. And in every business, mistakes are part of what people...in the construction industry, they'll tell you, "Mistakes are just going to happen every day. You just have to figure out how to fix each one." But, no, it's a difficult road. So yeah, I wish I could have coded it myself. I wish I could have done it myself, but I could not. But yeah, it's good learning. And, of course, you know, I think anyone who's going to start building a company with technology...if it were me now 10 years ago, I would have actually done some coding classes so I could just even communicate better to people who were building for me. But I did learn something, but not really enough. But it's a very interesting partnership, that's for sure. CHAD: And there is a lot of online classes now...AMY-WILLARD: Right [laughs].CHAD: If someone is out there thinking, oh, you know, maybe that's good advice. And there's a lot of opportunities for sort of an on-ramp, and you don't need to become an expert. AMY-WILLARD: No.CHAD: But, like you said, even just knowing the vocabulary can be helpful.AMY-WILLARD: I think that would have been useful. Yeah, definitely useful. But I definitely, like, you learn a little bit as a text-based person. You learn the rigor of just sort of, like, you have to think in ones and zeros. It either is or isn't. That helps. I learned that a little bit in working with tech devs. The last version we did actually white labeled off of someone who had created a technology to do with...it was to do with building communities online. And their project failed, but it had enough backbone that we were able to efficiently build what we needed to on top of what they built. CHAD: Oh, that's really...was it someone you knew already, or how did you get connected?AMY-WILLARD: Yes, they knew one of our partners in New York. We tried it first as a community project. It didn't really work. And then, we realized it could actually hold our data at the same time. So, my first iteration of the app was different. But yeah, anyway, we've built it a couple of times, and I could build it even more times...CHAD: [laughs]AMY-WILLARD: And make it even better and better.CHAD: So, on the sort of company side of you've worked with companies like Procter & Gamble, MasterCard, Microsoft, do you find it difficult to convince companies to participate? AMY-WILLARD: What we do is data journalism. We don't contact the companies. We have researchers. We have journalists go and look through the SEC data and CSR reports and collect the data points on which we measure them. So, no one has to cooperate with us to get the data. It's journalism. It's not opt-in surveys, which is a very common...when I first started, no one was measuring women, and now there's lots of different measurements. And they're often pay-to-play surveys, so they're not really very valuable. Ours is objective and fully transparent journalism.But then afterwards, our business model how we typically used to pay for this is that companies that did well on our index were then invited to be quote, "certified." And this was a business model that was sort of suggested to us at the Clinton Global Initiative, to which I belonged in 2016. And they loved what we were doing, using the free market to drive gender equality. Because, you know, our whole point is that women and people who care about women and equality, we have a lot of power as consumers, or as taxpayers, or as tuition payers, or as donors to nonprofits. And whenever you give money to an organization or a company, you have the right to sort of ask questions about the fairness of that organization. Well, that's our whole ethic, really. I answered that question and came around to a different idea, but yes, no. So, the companies do participate to be certified, and some of them are interested and some of them are not, and that's fine. We do projects with them sort of like when we...we've talked about MasterCard, and we did a big conference with them in New York. This is pre-pandemic. And then, we did a big, global exhibit with P&G, and Eli Lilly, and Microsoft at TED Global, which was very fun. It was all about fairness. And it was great to talk to technologists such as yourself. And we made a booth about fairness in general, not just about women. And we had a fairness game, and it was very interesting to just discuss with people. I think people like to think about fairness, right? I don't know if you have children, but little children get very interested in the idea of what's fair very early on. Yeah, so some companies participate...now we have companies...we do some work in B2B procurement which is something that your listeners might be interested in thinking about is that just, like, supplier diversity. If I were purchasing your services, your company services, I would ask about the gender metrics of your organization. I already learned they're quite good.So, big companies buying from other companies can put a gender lens on their B2B procurement. And so, that's a project we're doing with Salesforce, Logitech, Zoetis, Andela, which is another tech provider, and Quinnox, which is a similar sort of tech labor force, I believe. And so, we're going to be releasing a database about B2B suppliers. Actually, I should make sure that you get on it. That's a good idea. CHAD: Yes. AMY-WILLARD: That's a good idea because then it's going to be embedded in procurement platforms because this is a huge amount of money. It's even probably more...it could be more money than consumer spending, right? B2B spending. So, I'm excited about working with more companies on that to help promulgate this data and this idea because it's an easy way to drive fairness in a culture. When the government isn't requiring fairness, at least large companies can. And in some countries, actually, the government requires its vendors to do well on gender. Like, Italy now has a certification for gender, the government does, and companies that do well are privileged in RFPs and also get a tax deduction.CHAD: I don't want to say something incorrect, but I think the UK has, like, a rule around equity in pay...AMY-WILLARD: Yeah, absolutely. You're absolutely correct. CHAD: And yet they don't have equity in pay, the data shows. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. And we don't have that in the United States. It's voluntary in the U.S. We measure that, actually, too. That's seven points over a hundred points scale is whether they, one, publish the results of their pay study. In the U.S., though, we do it in a way that isn't rigorous as the way they do it in the UK. In the UK...you're great to remember that, Chad, in the UK, I mean, I wish my government did that.In the UK, companies report on the overall salaries paid to men and the overall salaries paid to women. So, that means if, you know, all the million-dollar jobs are held by men, it shows very clearly, and all the five-dollar jobs are held by women, it shows very clearly there's an imbalance. And in the United States, we just say, "Oh, well, is the male VP paid the same as a female VP?" That's sort of easier to do, right? CHAD: When we've talked with some larger companies about different products we're creating or those kinds of things, sometimes what I hear is they're looking for big wins, comprehensive things. And so, I was wondering whether you ever get pushback or feedback that's like, "Well, not that your issue is not important, but it's just focused on one aspect of what our goals are for this year."AMY-WILLARD: Right. Yeah, that's always a hard thing because when I think about fairness to half of the population, it's a hard thing for me to think that's not hugely important. CHAD: Yes. AMY-WILLARD: I have a really hard time, but yes, of course, we get that a lot. And, you know, quite frankly, when we did this B2B project with Logitech and Zoetis, they would ask their vendors, like, the major consulting companies and big companies, to take a SaaS assessment that we do. We have a SaaS product that private companies can take, or just instead of doing our journalism, they can just get their own assessment. And they were very, very reluctant to do this. That was just, you know, half an hour. It was a thousand-dollar assessment. And it took many months to convince these companies to do it. And that was their big customers.So, yes, it is very hard to have...what's the word? Coherence on what one company wants versus what a big company wants, and it's hard to know what they want. And it's, yeah, that's a difficult road for sure. And it changes [laughs].CHAD: Part of the reason why I asked is because from a product perspective, from a business perspective, at thoughtbot, we're big fans of, like, what can be called, like, niching down or being super clear about who you are, and what you believe, and what you offer. And if you try to be everything to everybody, it's usually not a very good tactic in the market. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. That's right. CHAD: So, the fact that you focus on one particular thing like you said, it's very important, and it's 50% of the population. But I imagine that focus is really healthy for you from a clarity of purpose perspective. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. But at the same time, now there's lots of...when I started in 2016, there weren't a lot of things in this space, and now there's many, many, many, many, many, many, so corporations that want to sort of connect to the community of women or do better for women. There's many different options. So, there's many flavors of this ice cream. Even though we're niche, the niche is very crowded, I would say, actually, and people are very confused.I mean, I think I remember hearing from Heineken that they're assaulted daily by things to, you know, ways to support women in different organizations and events. And they said they took our call because we were different. But yeah, there's many competitors. But, I mean, that's the main thing. In any business, in any endeavor in life, one has to show one's value to the people who may participate, and that's a challenge everywhere, isn't it?CHAD: Yeah.AMY-WILLARD: But the niching down thing is...and interesting we hear a lot these days is that women are done. We've moved on from that. Now we care about racial equality, and we say, "That's a yes, and… We can't move on." CHAD: Well, the data doesn't show that we've moved on.AMY-WILLARD: The data doesn't show that at all, and we're going way backwards, as you well know. So, I mean, actually, I don't know if you know, there's something called the named executive officers in public companies. Are you familiar with that? The top five paid people. CHAD: Yeah.AMY-WILLARD: They have to be registered with the government. Well, that number really hasn't changed in six years. That's where the big capital is, and the stock options, and the bonuses, and the big salaries. So, to me, that's very important that I would like, you know, rights and capital to be more...well, I want rights to be solid and capital to be flowing. And so, that's what we hope to do in our work. MID-ROLL AD:Now that you have funding, it's time to design, build, and ship the most impactful MVP that wows customers now and can scale in the future.thoughtbot Liftoff brings you the most reliable cross-functional team of product experts to mitigate risk and set you up for long-term success.As your trusted, experienced technical partner, we'll help launch your new product and guide you into a future-forward business that takes advantage of today's new technologies and agile best practices.Make the right decisions for tomorrow today. Get in touch at thoughtbot.com/liftoff.CHAD: So, going back to the founding of Gender Fair, when did you know that this was something you needed to do? AMY-WILLARD: I wanted to serve, you know, you want to be useful in life. And I wanted to do work in this field that I care so much about. As I said, I think I told you I started doing journalism before, and I realized anyone could take the journalism, and they could, you know, Upworthy would publish things we would create and then not pay us for it. And I thought that's crazy.But it's interesting talking to my husband. My husband's, like, a very privileged White guy. And I remember he said something to me very interesting. He said, "You either have power, or you take it." And he said, "Women have all this power." So, he helped me understand this. Like, you know, I think sometimes as women or communities that are underserved, you start thinking very oppositionally about what you don't have. But at the same time, you can realize that you do have this power. So, what we're trying to do with Gender Fair is remind people they have this economic power, and they can use it everywhere, you know, in addition to our consumer database. I told you that we're doing a B2B database this year. And we also...I think next week I'm going to release a database of 20,000 nonprofits looking at their gender ratings. That was done as a volunteer project by Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology if you know them. So, yeah, this is an ethic that you can take everywhere in your life is you have this power, even as a consumer. Chad, even in your little town, you can ask your coffee shop if they pay fair wages. Like, this is just a way of looking at the world that I hope to encourage people to do.CHAD: Along the journey of getting started, I assume you ran into many roadblocks. AMY-WILLARD: Mm-hmm. CHAD: Did you ever think maybe this is too hard? AMY-WILLARD: Oh yes. Well, not in building. In building, you're very optimistic, you know, it's just like when you're writing your first book. You think it's going to be a bestseller. Like, you build something, and you think the whole world is going to use it right away, and you're going to...I did have a great...when I first launched, I had a wonderful, I had, you know, press in Fortune. I had Chelsea Clinton. I had big people writing about us. Melinda Gates has written about us many, many times. The fact that...well, I've always wanted to build, like, a consumer revolution of women, and I'm going to keep at it. But it's very daunting. It's very daunting when you're trying to move a boulder such as, you know, big institutions and companies that don't really want to change, and they're not motivated to do it. So, yes, those are my roadblocks.It's not creating the massive amount of change that I wanted to do. And I'm not going to give up, but, yes, it is very daunting, and it's very daunting to see how little people care. Some people don't care about it, but some people in power don't care about it. But I think if you asked, you know, regular women, they would say, "We would like fair pay. We would like equal opportunity. We would like paid parental leave." They would want all these things, and hopefully, together, we can fight for them.CHAD: Well, and, like you said, the premise of what you're doing is you're focused on the power that you do have, which is the dollars that you spend with these companies. I think that's such a smart angle on this because especially for...it seems like the core in terms of the consumer-facing companies. That's so inherent in what this is. AMY-WILLARD: That's right. CHAD: Yeah, the angle of empowering consumers, and giving them the information, and leveraging the power that consumers have with these companies seems really smart to me...AMY-WILLARD: That's right. If it works -- CHAD: As opposed to individually going to the companies and saying, you know --AMY-WILLARD: "Please make it." Yeah. And some people would refute your use of the word empower because that implies that people don't have power. So, when I give speeches...I have a pair of beautiful gemstone red pumps, and I say it's the ruby slippers. We had this power all along. We just were not exercising it. But this power will only work, Chad, if it's done in the aggregate. So, our challenge is to reach the aggregate of American women. I have to, you know, I have to go reach 50 million women this year. That's my goal. Reach 50 million women with this message that we have the power in the aggregate to make change. And that's the only way this will work. If it's just one by one, it really doesn't. When I first launched, I found when I showed the app to people on the lower end of the economic scale, like, you know, people in the cash register; they understood this more than middle-class women. They understood the fact that if all women come together and, you know, buy from this company or don't buy from this company based on how they treat women, they understood that as a collective power. Whereas middle-class women who don't have as many struggles didn't really groove to that idea as quickly, which I thought was very...to me, it was very interesting, you know, individuals feel more powerful on the higher end of the social scale. They may or may not -- CHAD: That is interesting. AMY-WILLARD: Yeah. So, yeah, that's my goal. We'll see if I can do it. That's going to be my life's work, I think, Chad. CHAD: How do you reach 50 million people? AMY-WILLARD: I don't know. That's what I'm going to think about. You know, we're talking to different people about campaigns. We actually stopped the consumer work during the pandemic because it just, you know, everything changed. And so, now, this year, we're going back. I don't know; I mean, I guess if Ryan Reynolds tweeted about me, you know, that would help. If [laughs] anyone listening has any ideas how to reach 50 million women...no, maybe 3 million is what I need to create social change.CHAD: I imagine that it doesn't just come down to spending money on advertising. One, you might not have that money. AMY-WILLARD: No. And that would be, you know, that also would be not in the ethics of what Gender Fair is, for example, right? That means I would be paying money to Facebook and basically Facebook, I guess, and Google. If you look at the major spends of nonprofits, they're advertising with these big tech giants. And so, we have...actually, we have some partnerships with large women's organizations, and I think that's the way we hope to spread that. And if I had money for advertising, I would want to spend it with other women's organizations, or women's owned media, or women influencers. There's another idea I talk about in my work I call the female domestic product, and so talking about how much money women earn or capital we control. And the more we can grow that female domestic product, the more we can achieve equality actually. I always say, in America, you get as much equality as you can pay for sadly. CHAD: I was just about to say, "Sadly." AMY-WILLARD: Sadly, yeah. It's true. We still don't have the Equal Rights Amendment. A hundred years. CHAD: Well, 50% of the population would say, "Why do we need an Equal Rights Amendment [laughs]?" AMY-WILLARD: All men are created equal, but yeah, it's quite astonishing. I don't know. Do you have daughter, too, or just a son? CHAD: I have a son, and my younger one is non-binary. AMY-WILLARD: Well, I'm sorry to be so binary. Excuse me. CHAD: It's okay. AMY-WILLARD: Well, interesting. And that's great, too, isn't it? Because we see how fluid gender is and their rights are just as important as a woman's rights. And these are, you know, women and non-binary people are often excluded from things. And so, we are all working together just to create fairness. I'm sure that the same thing happens in your family, too. CHAD: Yeah. I think fairness is one of those things. Sometimes equality is not necessarily the same as fairness. AMY-WILLARD: Yes. CHAD: But I think, like you said at the top of the show, fairness is something that we seemingly learn very early on. But one of the ways that it comes across is I'm being. It is unfair to me, especially in little kids, at least with my kids [laughs]. AMY-WILLARD: Of course, yes.CHAD: That was the thing that they learned first and caused them the most pain. And it was very difficult for them to see that something was unfair for somebody else. So, I remember saying to my kids when they were little, "Fair doesn't mean you get your way." AMY-WILLARD: That's right. Not fair.CHAD: Right [laughs]. AMY-WILLARD: It's true. But then, you know, it's funny. When I talk about equal pay, I often say to people, "When I used to cut cakes for my children, I cut equal slices, and I didn't put them under the table," like, you know what I mean [laughter]? So, why are we so cagey about the slices of economic pie we give to one another? I mean, there's no reason why pay has to be secret, right? If it's fair. You could easily talk to people. Well, you know, Chad gets paid more money because he's the CEO, and he does the podcast, and he has to talk to the bank, you know what I mean? So, you could easily explain that to people. And I don't know why we have to keep salaries a secret from one another. It seems very irrational to me and not really a part of fairness. CHAD: Yeah. Yep. That's something...so, all of our salary bands at thoughtbot are public on the internet. AMY-WILLARD: Cool. On the internet. Oh, I'm very impressed. CHAD: Yeah. So, you can go to thoughtbot and use our compensation calculator. You enter in your location, what role you have. AMY-WILLARD: Oh. So, you do it for other people. Oh, that's cool. That's a great service. And that was just some sort of tech that was sort of pro bono tech that you all built for the world. CHAD: Yeah, we created it for ourselves.AMY-WILLARD: And then you shared it. CHAD: Mm-hmm. AMY-WILLARD: Then you open-sourced it. Great. Well, I bet you have a lot of happy employees.CHAD: I like to think so [laughs]. I do think that there is an inherent understanding of fairness. And when people ask how we do things at thoughtbot or how we should do things, I say, "How do you want it to be?" I think that guides a lot of how we do things and why a lot of stuff we do is just common sense. And it's not until ulterior motives or maintaining power comes into play where the people in power don't want to give it up. Because, like you said, people don't understand that by giving someone else a bigger piece, they think that that means their piece is smaller. AMY-WILLARD: Right. Or they just think they deserve it. I was reading last night about succession planning and CEOs. And apparently, a lot of them just stay...oh, sorry, in big public companies, not in their own companies, they stay on way too long. And all these consultants are saying it's the four Ps, you know, position, privilege, pay, and then...I forget the other one. But one of them was jets. They don't want to give up their jets. So yeah, I think when you have things, it seems fair, and sharing them seems...giving up some of what you have seems unfair. But I do think humans can see fairness. But sometimes, when you have a lot, it's hard to see it. You're able to justify why it may be not unfair to people who don't have as much as you do. But anyway, I can't change human nature, but most people do understand fairness. I think you're right about that. CHAD: Well, one thing...I noticed...so, you're a Public Benefit Corporation. AMY-WILLARD: Yes. CHAD: Did you set out to be a Public Benefit Corporation from day one? AMY-WILLARD: Yes, you know, originally, when it came to how was I going to pay for this, the first part I paid myself with my own money. I hired MBAs. I hired researchers. I built the tech. And then, I wasn't sure how I was going to pay for it going forward. But I knew I didn't want to become a nonprofit because, in my mind, there are so many things that...there are so many problems that women have that need to be solved by nonprofit organizations, planned parenthood first among them. Like, I don't want to take money away from women's organizations that help women fleeing abusive homes. So, I wanted to see if I could pay for this in the private sphere, which we've been able to do, and not have to seek donations because, really, I felt very strongly about not taking money out of that.That's part of the FDP, the part of the female domestic product, but the part that's contributed by people philanthropically. And there isn't a lot of philanthropic dollars going to women, as I mentioned before. So, yes, I knew definitely I wanted to be a Public Benefit Corporation. And there's no tax benefits to that, you know, I don't know if you are yet, but...CHAD: No, it's something that we've looked at, but it's very attractive to me. AMY-WILLARD: Right. And there's also the private version of it being a B Corp, which is also very useful. It's an onerous process. Public Benefit Corporation isn't quite as onerous, I don't believe. I mean, we're in Delaware and New York, but it just says that you're, I mean, we exist for the public good. I'm not existing to make millions of dollars. I'm existing to create social change. And some organizations don't want...are leery of working with us because we're not a nonprofit so that's to assuage them. Well, it's not really about...we're not about enriching shareholders. It's just a different way to pay for it. But yeah, I would encourage all companies to look into being a Public Benefit Corporation or do a B Corp assessment or a Gender Fair assessment. It helps them, you know, operate in a world that is increasingly more values concerned. Maybe 20 or 30 years ago, it wasn't so on the top of mind of many people. We were coming out of, you know, warring '80s capitalism. But nowadays, the younger people, especially, are very focused on issues of fairness and equality. So, I think those tools making business better that way are very useful.CHAD: Well, I would encourage, you know, everyone listening to go check out the app, if you're at a company, to look at doing the assessment. Where can people do those things? AMY-WILLARD: Ah, well, yeah, I would encourage them to do all those things. You're right, Chad. I would encourage you to download the app and check some of your favorite brands. It's very simple. Do the paid subscription. And then, if you're a company, you can do an online assessment. You just go Gender Fair assessment, and you'll find it. If you're a business and would like to participate in our B2B database, you can also do the assessment, or there's a coalition for Gender Fair procurement, where you can get information. We had the prime minister of Australia speak at our launch. It was quite excellent. We'll be launching our nonprofit. Actually, I think it's already online. It's called genderfair-nonprofits.org, if you want to see how your favorite nonprofits do. But, basically, we're here to help any business or organization do better on gender. And you can email me [email protected]. And I would love to help anyone in their journey for fairness of any kind. Yeah, many ways to participate. Just go to genderfair.com or genderfairprocurement.com. CHAD: Awesome. Amy, thank you so much for sharing with us. I really appreciate it. And thank you for all the good that you're doing in the world with Gender Fair.AMY-WILLARD: Well, I appreciate the way you're running your company in a very new, interesting, and apparently ethical way. Privately, I could look at your website and your career page and figure out how you're doing. But it sounds, to me, when I've talked to people, that you're doing very well. And I honor your curiosity about learning from others. CHAD: Awesome. Well, listeners, you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at [email protected]. You can find me on Mastodon @[email protected] podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore.Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. AD:Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us.More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at: [email protected] with any questions.
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